# Hilton Grand Vacations strikes deal to acquire Diamond Resorts



## GT75

HGV strikes deal to acquire Diamond Resorts - https://seekingalpha.com/news/36711...k-3&utm_medium=email&utm_source=seeking_alpha


or HGV press release - https://www.hiltongrandvacations.co...es-pdf/hgv_press-release_2021-03-10_final.pdf

or   Q&As on HGV Club page  - https://club.hiltongrandvacations.com/en/hgv-announces-plans-to-acquire-diamond-resorts

Previous threads on this merger when Apollo was looking to buy HGV - https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/apollo-group-looking-to-buy-hgvc-merged.294385/    or      https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/apollo-diamond.314104/


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## dioxide45

Looks like Apollo is losing a bunch of money on the deal. DIdn't they pay over $2 billion to buy Diamond and now they are selling for $1.5 billion?


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## ocdb8r

WOW, this is quite a turn of events....just a year ago we were all worried the reverse was going to happen.

I wonder how this all pans out.  There is a lot more variance in quality of resorts within Diamond (in my experience).


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## BingoBangoBongo

dioxide45 said:


> Looks like Apollo is losing a bunch of money on the deal. DIdn't they pay over $2 billion to buy Diamond and now they are selling for $1.5 billion?



It looks to be an all stock deal so they haven't lost the half billion yet.


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## dayooper

ocdb8r said:


> WOW, this is quite a turn of events....just a year ago we were all worried the reverse was going to happen.
> 
> I wonder how this all pans out.  There is a lot more variance in quality of resorts within Diamond (in my experience).



There was a quarterly report awhile ago that said they were looking to promote an entry-level system. I wonder if some of these resorts would be part of that?


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## dayooper

So glad this didn't go the other way. Hopefully, the system we are currently in will stay the same and we get access to the DRI resorts!


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## Pathways

So Diamond will own 28% of HGVC.  The question will be: will they sell some of that and lower their ownership?  Or increase it and take over HGVC?


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## BingoBangoBongo

Pathways said:


> So Diamond will own 28% of HGVC.  The question will be: will they sell some of that and lower their ownership?  Or increase it and take over HGVC?



So Diamond *Apollo Funds and the other Diamond stockholders*, *including the Reverence Funds will own 28% of HGVC.* The question will be: will they sell some of that and lower their ownership? Or increase it and take over HGVC?

They are looking to maximize their investment, whatever path that may be.


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## alexadeparis

Looking forward the accessing the Embarc and Grand Pacific resorts, the others not so much. I would hope that if folded into the HGVC system, that the points levels for the “entry level” resorts, which seems to be the vast majority of the Diamond holdings, would be more like the gold silver and bronze HGVC point levels by unit size. I definitely would not stay at most of those. I have successfully avoided them in the exchange systems and I don’t intend to use any of those.


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## Magus

*On 3/10 BMO,* HGV announced a definitive agreement to acquire Diamond Resorts International from Apollo and Reverence Capital in a total deal value of ~$3.0BN, with consideration paid by HGV to be approximately $1.4BN. In return, the Apollo funds and other Diamond stockholders will receive 34.5MM of HGV's common shares. Post the transaction, HGV shareholders will own around 72% of the combined company, with Apollo owning the other ~28%.


*Points:* The acquisition accelerates the launch of HGV branded trust product, which will be combined with Diamond's points based product. HGV aims to lower the barrier to entry for ownership, reduce earnings volatility, facilitate inventory recycling, and generate seamless upgrades.


*Building Scale:* The acquisition will combine Diamond's 92 leisure resorts and ~400,000 owners with HGV's ~325,000 owners and 62 properties.
The new entity will have access to over 20 new markets and a portfolio of 48 sales centers and ~720,000 owners.


*Synergies:* The company expects run-rate cost synergies of $125MM in the first two years following close with the potential for significant revenue synergy opportunities. In addition, the combined company is expected to generate an adjusted FCF conversion rate of between 50-60%, due to cost management, a strong pipeline and acquired inventory, and reduced long-term inventory spend. In aggregate, the company is also expected to generate 50% of Segment Adjusted EBITDA from recurring sources following the acquisition.


*Liquidity and Leverage:* The company expects rapid deleverage to below 3.0x with the next two years, and has a pro-forma liquidity of $1.0BN.


*Our focus on the call.* We will provide an update post the conference call at 8:30am. The dial-in number is (877) 407-0784.


Note from research analysts this morning


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## Magus

I don't always need to stay upscale and I will be glad to have additional international destinations. An all stock deal means not worried about debt, which is a bonus. Pending details of the system merger and the equiv HGV points for these new ones, I am happy with this transaction.


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## BingoBangoBongo

We stayed at a property Diamond now operates in Whistler (late June) and would look forward to getting back there.


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## DazedandConfused

I am not sure this is good news or bad news for HGVC members, but I am leaning towards this is bad news


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## dioxide45

With the plan to rebrand the DRI resorts over time to HGVC, then it would seem there may be added inventory pressure for reservations at existing HGVC properties if there is some type of opt in or enrollment for DRI owners to begin using HGVC resorts. Will more people be wanting to book Hilton vs owners wanting to cross over to Diamon?


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## hurnik

Interesting.  Cabo Azul is a very nice resort.  Can't get into it with RCI currently (it's listed but when I tried to submit an OGS it failed and I called in and the lady said it's not accepting anything from RCI--this was last year, BTW).


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## bnoble

alexadeparis said:


> Looking forward the accessing the Embarc and Grand Pacific resorts


When did Diamond acquire GPX? I missed that.


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## Magus

dioxide45 said:


> With the plan to rebrand the DRI resorts over time to HGVC, then it would seem there may be added inventory pressure for reservations at existing HGVC properties if there is some type of opt in or enrollment for DRI owners to begin using HGVC resorts. Will more people be wanting to book Hilton vs owners wanting to cross over to Diamon?



The devil will be in the details, but I imagine there will be roughly the same amount. Budget conscious folks will want to stretch their points and stay at Diamond, or if Diamond opens up markets you want to go but didn't have unless with RCI.  More upscale conscious folks + HGV market opens you want to go but didn't have previously will eat into HGV system. I imagine it will be a wash. In general, more options are better, and the fact that HGV + HGV mgmt remain in control here - not Apollo who likely gets 1-2 Board seats - plus no debt incurred, I think its very likely a good thing for *most* HGV owners.


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## GT75

DazedandConfused said:


> I am not sure this is good news or bad news for HGVC members, but I am leaning towards this is bad news


I honestly am wondering the same thing.   On the positive side, this is better than Apollo owning/controlling HGV directly.    On the negative side, Apollo will have a large stake in HGV.


dioxide45 said:


> With the plan to rebrand the DRI resorts over time to HGVC, then it would seem there may be added inventory pressure for reservations at existing HGVC properties if there is some type of opt in or enrollment for DRI owners to begin using HGVC resorts. Will more people be wanting to book Hilton vs owners wanting to cross over to Diamon?


This to me anyways sounds similar to the Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt merger {except those were all top qualify resorts) 1 or 2 years ago.   You are way more familiar with that merger but I think that is still a "work in progress".    It really depends on how the new rules for HGV TS system will be written.    Will there be one set of rules for both systems?    I think that DRI has several different sets of rules now within its own system.     I guess what I am trying to say is that it is way too early to tell what this means for us HGV owners right now.


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## elaine

So, would a diamond owner have access to HGVC units?


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## Seaport104

Received this email from Diamond at 10:00 am this morning. Quite a suprise!!!


Dear Members and Owners,

Thank you for your continued trust and loyalty in Diamond Resorts. We strive to provide you with world-class destinations, unforgettable experiences and superior service — helping you to reconnect with what matters most.

With that in mind, I am thrilled to announce an exciting new chapter for Diamond Resorts that we expect will provide you with even more options and flexibility for your vacation ownership. Diamond Resorts and Hilton Grand Vacations (“HGV”) have signed an agreement to join together as one company, with HGV as the acquirer. This combination will bring together the iconic Hilton Grand Vacations brand with the scale and unique culture of Diamond Resorts to create a new global standard of vacation ownership hospitality.

*Leading the Industry: More Options in More Destinations = More Memories*

Together, the combined company will become one of the largest global timeshare networks, spanning North America, Europe and Asia. The HGV network delivers exciting new resorts in dozens of sought-after beach, ski and city destinations, including New York, Charleston, Park City and Japan.

*The Diamond Resorts & Hilton Grand Vacations Commitment*

Our commitment to our members and owners is that your vacation experience remains our top priority. Together, we believe we will provide you with one of the broadest offerings available in the vacation ownership industry and achieve new heights of excellence.

As an existing Diamond member or owner, you will continue to have access to the same benefits you have come to enjoy, including: access to Diamond’s resort portfolio, the Destination Xchange® program, the expanded Diamond Dream Holiday selection and our exclusive Events of a Lifetime® series. Over time, we expect most of our Diamond-managed properties to be rebranded under a new HGV sub-brand, further elevating your vacation experience.

*Keeping You Informed*

The transaction is subject to customary closing conditions, and we expect it will take several months to complete. We are committed to being transparent with you throughout this exciting process. To keep you informed, we will endeavor to share important updates as they become available in the What’s New [u6290299.ct.sendgrid.net] section of your Member Area. If you have any questions, your Member Services team is available to assist you at any time as always. We look forward to providing you regular updates on the status of this transaction.

The completion of this transaction will mark the beginning of a new era of exceptional travel experiences. We can’t wait for you to see the many new destinations and extraordinary experiences in store for you. As always, our owners and members are at the heart of what we do, and we are honored to celebrate starting this new chapter with you.


Mike Flaskey
CEO, Diamond Resorts


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## dioxide45

elaine said:


> So, would a diamond owner have access to HGVC units?


I would expect it at some point. HGVC has a pretty simple point overlay. They could just assign points values to the resorts/seasons of Diamond properties and offer up some type of enrollment, like they do now for resales and affiliates.


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## colatown

bnoble said:


> When did Diamond acquire GPX? I missed that.


They didn't.


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## dayooper

Magus said:


> *Points:* The acquisition accelerates the launch of HGV branded trust product, which will be combined with Diamond's points based product. HGV aims to lower the barrier to entry for ownership, reduce earnings volatility, facilitate inventory recycling, and generate seamless upgrades.





dioxide45 said:


> With the plan to rebrand the DRI resorts over time to HGVC, then it would seem there may be added inventory pressure for reservations at existing HGVC properties if there is some type of opt in or enrollment for DRI owners to begin using HGVC resorts. Will more people be wanting to book Hilton vs owners wanting to cross over to Diamon?



I think this will be a different subsystem. They've talked about a lower entry cost option for a while now and this might be the way they are going to handle it. Keep DRI as a trust with a lower entry point than HGVC and upsell into the current system. HGVC has been upselling for quite awhile. Get younger members in with a lower buy-in and sell them on the higher quality of HGVC properties in an upsell. Offer the "DRI" members reduced packages to try out the resorts and sell them on the greater quality. Maybe incorporate Embarc back into the HGVC fold but leave the DRI system as a separate sub-system. The quote from Magnus found leads me to think in that direction.



GT75 said:


> This to me anyways sounds similar to the Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt merger {except those were all top qualify resorts) 1 or 2 years ago.   You are way more familiar with that merger but I think that is still a "work in progress".    It really depends on how the new rules for HGV TS system will be written.    Will there be one set of rules for both systems?    I think that DRI has several different sets of rules now within its own system.     I guess what I am trying to say is that it is way too early to tell what this means for us HGV owners right now.



Maybe, but the quality level isn't as high at the Diamond resorts, correct? I don't think the current HGVC leadership would take that chance with their current members. Because of the differences in the system, isn't Marriott having a hard time incorporating Hyatt and are leaving them kinda on their own? The big difference is how the systems work, correct? Marriott being a trust and Hyatt being a system like HGVC (points based on the various weeks owned at various resorts). If I remember correctly, DRI is mostly a trust system. They don't mesh well. Keeping the somewhat separate systems and maybe allowing an exchange of points at different rates.


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## holdaer

Some context, DRI has a LOT of affiliated resorts.  It's difficult to determine which resorts are true DRI resorts vs 'affiliated' resorts.  Plus, these 'affiliated' resorts are not part of the acquisition per HGVC.


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## buzglyd

This is interesting and I wonder what properties will be in the HGV system going forward?

I’ve stayed in a few Diamond properties. Some are really nice and some are meh. 

Cabo Azul and Embarc Palm Desert are fantastic. I’d use my points for either one of those.


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## sfwilshire

It will be interesting, but hopefully good for us. We have owned a resort for many years that Diamond took over management for. The maintenance fees skyrocketed and have just gotten higher and higher. I have no experience with HGVC, but the Hilton Brand of hotels has always treated me well. I look forward to seeing positive changes with this acquisition.

Sheila


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## dayooper

elaine said:


> So, would a diamond owner have access to HGVC units?



Don't know. The merger of Vistana and Marriott is going on how many years and it's still not finished?


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## travelhacker

Forgive my ignorance as I don't follow Diamond closely, but didn't Diamond just start their own exchange? 

It kinda seems like RCI may be a big loser here...the big appeal to RCI for me is HGVC and DVC.


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## travelhacker

dayooper said:


> Don't know. The merger of Vistana and Marriott is going on how many years and it's still not finished?


It kinda feels like they felt they had to do something with all the consolidation....basically everything now boils down to:

Independents / really small groups
Wyndham
Marriott
HGVC


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## dioxide45

travelhacker said:


> Forgive my ignorance as I don't follow Diamond closely, but didn't Diamond just start their own exchange?
> 
> It kinda seems like RCI may be a big loser here...the big appeal to RCI for me is HGVC and DVC.


Yes, DIamond moved away from Interval International to start their own exchange. I beleive this is just to support their weeks based owners. They also have trust based point owners that trade internally using points.


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## dayooper

travelhacker said:


> It kinda feels like they felt they had to do something with all the consolidation....basically everything now boils down to:
> 
> Independents / really small groups
> Wyndham
> Marriott
> HGVC



I agree. With Marriott purchasing Vistana and Welk and Wyndham with Worldmark, they were being left behind.


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## Almond123

I just received this.   







 

 



 *An Exciting New Chapter
Diamond Resorts and Hilton Grand Vacations* 

 Dear Members and Owners,
Thank you for your continued trust and loyalty in Diamond Resorts. We strive to provide you with world-class destinations, unforgettable experiences and superior service — helping you to reconnect with what matters most.
With that in mind, I am thrilled to announce an exciting new chapter for Diamond Resorts that we expect will provide you with even more options and flexibility for your vacation ownership. Diamond Resorts and Hilton Grand Vacations (“HGV”) have signed an agreement to join together as one company, with HGV as the acquirer. This combination will bring together the iconic Hilton Grand Vacations brand with the scale and unique culture of Diamond Resorts to create a new global standard of vacation ownership hospitality.

*Leading the Industry: More Options in More Destinations = More Memories*
Together, the combined company will become one of the largest global timeshare networks, spanning North America, Europe and Asia. The HGV network delivers exciting new resorts in dozens of sought-after beach, ski and city destinations, including New York, Charleston, Park City and Japan.

*The Diamond Resorts & Hilton Grand Vacations Commitment*
Our commitment to our members and owners is that your vacation experience remains our top priority. Together, we believe we will provide you with one of the broadest offerings available in the vacation ownership industry and achieve new heights of excellence.
As an existing Diamond member or owner, you will continue to have access to the same benefits you have come to enjoy, including: access to Diamond’s resort portfolio, the Destination Xchange® program, the expanded Diamond Dream Holiday selection and our exclusive Events of a Lifetime® series. Over time, we expect most of our Diamond-managed properties to be rebranded under a new HGV sub-brand, further elevating your vacation experience.

*Keeping You Informed*
The transaction is subject to customary closing conditions, and we expect it will take several months to complete. We are committed to being transparent with you throughout this exciting process. To keep you informed, we will endeavor to share important updates as they become available in the What’s New section of your Member Area. If you have any questions, your Member Services team is available to assist you at any time as always. We look forward to providing you regular updates on the status of this transaction.
The completion of this transaction will mark the beginning of a new era of exceptional travel experiences. We can’t wait for you to see the many new destinations and extraordinary experiences in store for you. As always, our owners and members are at the heart of what we do, and we are honored to celebrate starting this new chapter with you.





Mike Flaskey
CEO, Diamond Resorts 



 Diamond Resorts® 10600 West Charleston Boulevard, Las Vegas, NV 89135 USA. 
©Copyright 2021 Diamond Resorts Holdings, LLC. All rights reserved. Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable state, federal and international laws. 2102-8790
Unsubscribe


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## natarajanv

Email from HGVC:


March 10, 2021
Dear HGV Owners,
I cannot thank you enough for your continued trust in Hilton Grand Vacations. It is because of your loyalty as Owners over the years that HGV has grown to be a leader in the vacation ownership industry. Your commitment to the future success of HGV, and our focus on providing you with world-class destinations, services and vacation experiences, are exactly why we continue making strategic decisions for our sustainable, long-term growth.
With this in mind, I'm excited to share that this morning we *announced our plans to acquire Diamond Resorts*. In doing so, we will create one of the largest vacation ownership networks, combining this leading independent vacation ownership company with the strength of HGV's brand and culture. This transformational combination will widen our product offerings, more than double our resort locations and enhance experiential offerings for our Owners.
*What's Not Changing: Putting You First*
First, our commitment to our Owners and your vacation experience are our top priority.
I want to assure you that your ownership rights and access to your Home Resort will not be changed or diluted, and Club Members will continue to have access to the Club exchange system, including more than 6,300 Hilton hotels globally. Additionally, there will be no changes to any 2021 Club Dues or maintenance fees. Integrating the two companies is anticipated to be a multi-year, phased initiative, which means you may not hear about expanded offerings or benefits immediately.
Given the challenges of the past year, many of you may be wondering why we are making this decision now, and I want to assure you that I'm confident this is the right step forward for our Owners and HGV’s future growth. I'd like to share some of the many reasons why this acquisition will benefit our Owners and position HGV as a leader in the vacation ownership industry for many years to come.
*Leading the Industry: More Options in More Destinations = More Flexibility*
By expanding our portfolio, we will lead the vacation ownership industry in offering Owners and guests more options in more destinations with greater flexibility in how, when and where they travel.
Together, we will provide the broadest range of offerings with a wider array of price points – a new HGV sub-brand to complement our existing Hilton Grand Vacations and By Hilton Club brands. Together, we will expand HGV’s footprint, increase the number of drive-to resorts in the United States and more than double our international presence – all enhancements that will directly benefit you, as our Owners:

Today, we have 62 properties. With this transaction, we’re more than doubling that number to 154.
Many of these properties are in new locations, including Sedona and Scottsdale (AZ), Palm Springs (CA), Pigeon Forge (TN), Virginia Beach (VA), Kaua’i (HI), a variety of ski locations throughout the U.S. and Canada, and beach resorts in Mexico and the Caribbean.
We’re adding a network of great assets in new locations that would have taken us more than a decade to grow organically.

*A Shared Vision: Offering Owners Exceptional Travel Experiences*
We have a shared vision for success with Diamond Resorts. Over the past few weeks, we've had the chance to get to know the Diamond team and have seen their hard work:

We both believe our Owners, guests and prospects deserve the highest level of quality, consistent attention to detail and exceptional experiences no matter where they are staying.
By combining under our HGV-led mission and values, we believe new heights of excellence will be achieved for Owners, Club Members and guests alike.

*Next Steps*
As with any announcement of this size, it will take us time to implement all the final details. And until the transaction closes, it will be business as usual, and Diamond remains a separate company from HGV. We are committed to being transparent with you throughout this process and will update you with new information as it is available.
To keep you informed, we've created a dedicated page on the Club website to provide answers to some of the questions you might have. To access the page, visit my.hgv.com/announcement. We will also communicate with you directly to update you on the status of our acquisition and any related enhancements to your ownership experience.
Today is a significant day. It sets HGV on a new course and trajectory for continued growth — and I can’t wait for you to see the many new destinations and experiences that are in store for you. As always, our Owners and Team Members are at the heart of what we do, and we will continue to keep your vacation ownership experience top of mind as we move forward with the next phases of this acquisition.
Thank you for your continued loyalty and for helping HGV achieve this milestone.​


All the best,




Mark Wang
President & CEO
Hilton Grand Vacations​


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## travelhacker

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, DIamond moved away from Interval International to start their own exchange. I beleive this is just to support their weeks based owners. They also have trust based point owners that trade internally using points.


Do you think they try to do their own exchange company and split with RCI?

That would mean all major timeshare players have their own exchange.

Obviously, I wouldn't expect any immediate changes...but 3-5 years down the road?


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## dioxide45

travelhacker said:


> Do you think they try to do their own exchange company and split with RCI?
> 
> That would mean all major timeshare players have their own exchange.
> 
> Obviously, I wouldn't expect any immediate changes...but 3-5 years down the road?


I doubt it, mainly because Hilton already has their points overlay. No need for another internal exchange. They may offer HGV overlay points to DRI weeks owners at some point. That would be the new exchange system if they choose to use it. So much is unknown, but they indicated a plan to rebrand the Diamond resorts as HGVC. I suspect they may run into some issues rebranding some that aren't up to quality standards. I would expect rebranded ot Hilton properties to be able to use HGV points just like a Hilton resort owners does today.


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## buzglyd

Makes one wonder what Diamond resorts will be rebranded? 

My guess:

Cabo Azul
Point at Poipu
One or two of the Sedona and Scottsdale resorts.
Embarc resorts. 
Williamsburg properites. 
The newer Virginia Beach property. 
KBR

Any other guesses?


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## dayooper

buzglyd said:


> Makes one wonder what Diamond resorts will be rebranded?
> 
> My guess:
> 
> Cabo Azul
> Point at Poipu
> One or two of the Sedona and Scottsdale resorts.
> Embarc resorts.
> Williamsburg properites.
> The newer Virginia Beach property.
> KBR
> 
> Any other guesses?



The Diamond resorts in Vegas, Orlando and the Big Island are certainly going to be rebranded HGVC. We are seriously short inventory in these areas.


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## elaine

Williamsburg Greensprings could easily be up to HGVC standards. Powhatan--no, IMHO.


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## Sandy VDH

As long as HGVC is managing it and not Diamond.  Increased in MF and resorts have been managed pretty well by HGVC.  They are good a keeping the reserves funded adequately, and not requiring very many SA in all the years I have been a member.
Having more resorts options via an internal exchange is also a plus. As I see it RCI and II are just not needed as much unless you own a small independent resort with fixed week or points owners.

I only use RCI if getting it via RCI is cheaper than any of my points systems.  The issues for me are flexibility in canceling and cost of transactions.  Those items are much more flexible within the points exchange systems.


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## Sandy VDH

dayooper said:


> The Diamond resorts in Vegas, Orlando and the Big Island are certainly going to be rebranded HGVC. We are seriously short inventory in these areas.


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## GregT

buzglyd said:


> Makes one wonder what Diamond resorts will be rebranded?
> 
> My guess:
> 
> Cabo Azul
> Point at Poipu
> One or two of the Sedona and Scottsdale resorts.
> Embarc resorts.
> Williamsburg properites.
> The newer Virginia Beach property.
> KBR
> 
> Any other guesses?


Buzz,

I also think Kaanapali Beach Club and perhaps Lawai Beach Resort could be candidates because they are both very well located and are good properties.   These might be treated more like affiliates versus HGVC-branded properties but that doesn't bother me at all.    

I think this is great for HGVC owners -- I don't think these will be points-efficient to reserve but it creates new opportunities for us.    Wyndham owns both Worldmark and Wyndham and has been cross-pollinating the two systems over the years but never truly merged them.    It takes alot of Worldmark credits to reserve a Wyndham property -- more than simply staying within Worldmark, but is great to have the options.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out and it appears we will be left with three giants:   Marriott, Hilton and Wyndham.  Are there any high quality independents still out there?   Will Four Seasons get merged into something?   Interesting...

Best,

Greg


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## dayooper

buzglyd said:


> Makes one wonder what Diamond resorts will be rebranded?
> 
> My guess:
> 
> Cabo Azul
> Point at Poipu
> One or two of the Sedona and Scottsdale resorts.
> Embarc resorts.
> Williamsburg properites.
> The newer Virginia Beach property.
> KBR
> 
> Any other guesses?



I don't know which DRI resorts of higher quality, but I can see them rebranding and updating resorts in popular destinations where HGVC isn't. Just going through some of their resorts, I can see places like Tahoe, Sedona, Gatlinburg and Virginia Beach are great destinations where HGVC doesn't have properties. The intriguing resort is the Ka'anapoli Beach Club in Maui. Would they brand this resort HGVC before they can even open the property they are building (I can never remember the name)? Could this resort be competition for their new property?

How many of the European/Caribean resorts are actual DRI properties and not affiliates. These are locations where HGVC is really falling behind other systems. I think this is a pretty big aspect of the purchase as well. What is the Kaui resort like? That's one place both my wife and I would really like to visit.


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## buzglyd

GregT said:


> Buzz,
> 
> I also think Kaanapali Beach Club and perhaps Lawai Beach Resort could be candidates because they are both very well located and are good properties.   These might be treated more like affiliates versus HGVC-branded properties but that doesn't bother me at all.
> 
> I think this is great for HGVC owners -- I don't think these will be points-efficient to reserve but it creates new opportunities for us.    Wyndham owns both Worldmark and Wyndham and has been cross-pollinating the two systems over the years but never truly merged them.    It takes alot of Worldmark credits to reserve a Wyndham property -- more than simply staying within Worldmark, but is great to have the options.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how this shakes out and it appears we will be left with three giants:   Marriott, Hilton and Wyndham.  Are there any high quality independents still out there?   Will Four Seasons get merged into something?   Interesting...
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Vacation Villages is the highest quality Indy group IMO. Bluegreen also has some nice properties. 

Four Seasons is taking back a lot of deeds (Carlsbad) and then those are being bought by other groups like Welk which bought a lot of Four Seasons inventory.

I forgot about Lawai. I’ve stayed there a couple of times and the location is great. I haven’t stayed at Poipu point.


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## buzglyd

dayooper said:


> I don't know which DRI resorts of higher quality, but I can see them rebranding and updating resorts in popular destinations where HGVC isn't. Just going through some of their resorts, I can see places like Tahoe, Sedona, Gatlinburg and Virginia Beach are great destinations where HGVC doesn't have properties. The intriguing resort is the Ka'anapoli Beach Club in Maui. Would they brand this resort HGVC before they can even open the property they are building (I can never remember the name)? Could this resort be competition for their new property?
> 
> How many of the European/Caribean resorts are actual DRI properties and not affiliates. These are locations where HGVC is really falling behind other systems. I think this is a pretty big aspect of the purchase as well. What is the Kaui resort like? That's one place both my wife and I would really like to visit.



You need to be able to drive tours and the KBC will help drive tours to the new property because you’ll have a captive audience there. I often wondered how they would sell Barbados because how do you drive tours to onsite sales. Maybe it’s all offsite. I don’t know. I haven’t been to Barbados. I don’t think cruise ship passengers are a market because they’re only on shore for a handful of hours.


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## dioxide45

GregT said:


> It will be interesting to see how this shakes out and it appears we will be left with three giants: Marriott, Hilton and Wyndham. Are there any high quality independents still out there? Will Four Seasons get merged into something? Interesting...


Perhaps a challenge with Four Seasons is that they are also a separate hotel and resort company, like Hyatt. So merging them into another system may be difficult, unless they were to rebrand. Of course, Four Seasons is a pretty small hotel company, perhaps ripe for a buyer. Though I don't think they are for sale.


----------



## buzglyd

dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps a challenge with Four Seasons is that they are also a separate hotel and resort company, like Hyatt. So merging them into another system may be difficult, unless they were to rebrand. Of course, Four Seasons is a pretty small hotel company, perhaps ripe for a buyer. Though I don't think they are for sale.



The timeshare division is separate. It caused problems in Carlsbad when Aviara turned into a Park Hyatt and denied Four Season owners access to hotel amenities which they had previously when it was a Four Seasons. Owners were not happy.


----------



## GregT

Here is a map of the locations -- sorry for picture quality, I had to take a picture of the screen with the iPhone....


----------



## Sandy VDH

GregT said:


> Wyndham owns both Worldmark and Wyndham and has been cross-pollinating the two systems over the years but never truly merged them.



The intent was to merge them, but WM owners sued and won.  So inventory swaps happened at some locations.  So Now they are separate but related systems.  The cross over must be manually completed, which is klunky and perks do not cross over.


----------



## rboesl

Someone mentioned this earlier, the acquisition is covers just the Diamond Unaffiliated/Owned resorts. What happens with all the Diamond Affiliated resorts? Where does access to these resorts go? They're currently available through Diamond Exchange. Does that continue post merger or are they left with access only through the 3rd parties like II & RCI?


----------



## dayooper

GregT said:


> Here is a map of the locations -- sorry for picture quality, I had to take a picture of the screen with the iPhone....



Thanks for the pic! Does this map include affiliated resorts or just the DRI owned properties?


----------



## GregT

dayooper said:


> Thanks for the pic! Does this map include affiliated resorts or just the DRI owned properties?


I believe it is everything and will seek to confirm this.


----------



## bnoble

colatown said:


> They didn't.


So what does this mean?



alexadeparis said:


> Looking forward the accessing the [...] Grand Pacific resorts


----------



## Sandy VDH

dayooper said:


> Thanks for the pic! Does this map include affiliated resorts or just the DRI owned properties?



Looking at the list of resort, this is both.


----------



## DRIless

An Exciting New Chapter

Diamond Resorts and Hilton Grand Vacations






Dear Members and Owners,

Thank you for your continued trust and loyalty in Diamond Resorts. We strive to provide you with world-class destinations, unforgettable experiences and superior service — helping you to reconnect with what matters most.

With that in mind, I am thrilled to announce an exciting new chapter for Diamond Resorts that we expect will provide you with even more options and flexibility for your vacation ownership. Diamond Resorts and Hilton Grand Vacations (“HGV”) have signed an agreement to join together as one company, with HGV as the acquirer. This combination will bring together the iconic Hilton Grand Vacations brand with the scale and unique culture of Diamond Resorts to create a new global standard of vacation ownership hospitality.


Leading the Industry: More Options in More Destinations = More Memories

Together, the combined company will become one of the largest global timeshare networks, spanning North America, Europe and Asia. The HGV network delivers exciting new resorts in dozens of sought-after beach, ski and city destinations, including New York, Charleston, Park City and Japan.


The Diamond Resorts & Hilton Grand Vacations Commitment

Our commitment to our members and owners is that your vacation experience remains our top priority. Together, we believe we will provide you with one of the broadest offerings available in the vacation ownership industry and achieve new heights of excellence.

As an existing Diamond member or owner, you will continue to have access to the same benefits you have come to enjoy, including: access to Diamond’s resort portfolio, the Destination Xchange® program, the expanded Diamond Dream Holiday selection and our exclusive Events of a Lifetime® series. Over time, we expect most of our Diamond-managed properties to be rebranded under a new HGV sub-brand, further elevating your vacation experience.


Keeping You Informed

The transaction is subject to customary closing conditions, and we expect it will take several months to complete. We are committed to being transparent with you throughout this exciting process. To keep you informed, we will endeavor to share important updates as they become available in the What’s New section of your Member Area. If you have any questions, your Member Services team is available to assist you at any time as always. We look forward to providing you regular updates on the status of this transaction.

The completion of this transaction will mark the beginning of a new era of exceptional travel experiences. We can’t wait for you to see the many new destinations and extraordinary experiences in store for you. As always, our owners and members are at the heart of what we do, and we are honored to celebrate starting this new chapter with you.


Mike Flaskey
CEO, Diamond Resorts


----------



## CalGalTraveler

buzglyd said:


> Makes one wonder what Diamond resorts will be rebranded?
> 
> My guess:
> 
> Cabo Azul
> Point at Poipu
> One or two of the Sedona and Scottsdale resorts.
> Embarc resorts.
> Williamsburg properites.
> The newer Virginia Beach property.
> KBR
> 
> Any other guesses?




Thanks for the list. What about their Lake Tahoe property?

Over the next year or two,  it looks like we will be able to exchange into Diamond via RCI per Mark Wang's communication. This is a switch from II. I hope to try Cabo Azul, and some of the Embarcs if they become available.

IMHO...This is a good outcome for HGVC because they need more resorts in their quiver.  I look forward to trying out new properties in Sedona, Cabo, Palm Desert and Whistler. I hope HGVC remains in charge.  I had been holding off acquiring more points with the worry that Apollo/Diamond would take over. The only dark cloud is the share of stock owned by Apollo. Would they push to raise maint fees in the HGVC portfolio to maximize profitability? I am hopeful HGV will manage this.

I hope these new properties don't have nosebleed points values like the new HGV properties. Deal killer.

HGV is looking more and more like MVC/Vistana. Many locations. Legacy weeks portfolios, and a trust points system. Potentially an exchange to replace RCI? We should watch what MVC does to Vistana/Westin because I view HGVC system as similar to Vistana because it has it's own legacy mini-points system attached to deeds and contains upscale properties. Will take years to see rollout.


----------



## dougp26364

In the past we were silver elite owners with DRI. We did a deed back of our 2 Polo Towers units several years ago. DRI was our original purchase into timeshare in 1998, so we have a fare amount of experience with their resorts.

KBC and the Lake Tahoe resort use to be branded Embassy Suites. I always wondered why Hilton let them go to DRI all those years ago. Now perhaps they will bring them back. Lake Tahoe has a nice location by the Lake on the California side. KBC is a very nice resort but not in a primo location. We’ve stayed there twice. Reserving a good unit through DRI was always easy enough. I wonder what it will be like in the future as there has been pent up demand within the HGVC system for a Maui location. 

HGVC members might also gain access to Branson, MO. The Suites at Fall Creek are decent, but I wouldn’t spend a lot of HGVC points for one of those units. It’s not the best location but not bad. I always thought it could be a really nice resort if they maintained the grounds a little better. That resort also use to manage a dock for fishing and boat slips/boat rentals on Lake Tannycomo. 

I hope that eventually HGVC owners will gain access to DRI’s vast holdings in Sedona. Marriott greatly disappointed us when they couldn’t merge Hyatt into their system. At least now we have hope of an easier way in besides the expensive exchange options of II or RCI.

The one thing I do know is that owner updates just got more interesting. We’ve been through the wringer with all the sales speculation at Marriott when they merged with Vistana/Westin/Sheraton, so we’re pretty use to the wild variety of untruths that are bound to be uttered at the round table. At least it gives me an excuse to go. We stopped going to HGVC owner updates because the rewards were to low and they had nothing to offer us of interest. Now, at least I can listen to the speculation and ramblings as they try to update our ownership to something higher based on promises of things to come, none of which they will ever put in writing.


----------



## karibkeith

alexadeparis said:


> Looking forward the accessing the Embarc and Grand Pacific resorts, the others not so much. I would hope that if folded into the HGVC system, that the points levels for the “entry level” resorts, which seems to be the vast majority of the Diamond holdings, would be more like the gold silver and bronze HGVC point levels by unit size. I definitely would not stay at most of those. I have successfully avoided them in the exchange systems and I don’t intend to use any of those.


Where did you see acquiring access to Embarc resorts? Diamond Club members have not had this access since Diamond bought Intrawest.


----------



## karibkeith

DazedandConfused said:


> I am not sure this is good news or bad news for HGVC members, but I am leaning towards this is bad news


From the other side, I am a Diamond owner and this looks like horrible news to me. I went to the HGVC site and most of the places looked like hotels and not resorts. Also trying to get a list was like pulling teeth from a hen's mouth. Perhaps if I could sign in, I would get  better information. Does anyone have a list?


----------



## dougp26364

For those interested in what DRI quality is like, I’ll post links to our photo albums from past stays at DRI resorts. Keep in mind we’ve been out of DRI since 2016, so all of these albums are 2015 and older.

Maui KBC








						DRI Ka'anapali Beach Club March 2015 - dougp26364
					

Maui Hawaii: One bedroom deluxe Ocean View units. Corner unit 412 and side unit 404




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				











						DRI Ka'anapali Beach Club April 2013 - dougp26364
					

Maui Hawaii1 bedroom deluxe ocean view




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				




Sedona: Bell Rock Inn









						DRI Bell Rock Inn,  May 2015 - dougp26364
					

Sedona, AZ: 2 bedroom unit




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				




Sedona: The Ridge on Sedona Golf Resort









						DRI The Ridge on Sedona Golf Resort Feb 2013 - dougp26364
					

Sedona, AZ 1 bedroom




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				




Sedona: Sedona Summit (Mesa Suite unit)









						DRI Sedona Summit Feb. 2013 - dougp26364
					

Sedona, AZ 1 bedroom Mesa Suite




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				




Las Vegas: The Suites at Polo Towers









						DRI's The Suites at Polo Towers March 2012 - dougp26364
					

Las Vegas, NV 1 bedroom Suite




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				




Estes Park,CO: Historic Crags Lodge (not certain if this one is DRI or an affiliate. I believe it’s DRI)









						DRI's The Historic Crags Lodge June 2012 - dougp26364
					

Estes Park, CO June 2012. 1 bedroom unit




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				




Branson, MO: The Suites at Fall Creek









						DRI The Suite's at Fall Creek 12/2010 Lake Tanycomo units - dougp26364
					

Branson, MO 2 bedroom unit in older section by Lake Tanycomo.




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				












						DRI The Suites at Fall Creek Branson, MO 2011 - dougp26364
					

Branson, MO. Compliation of 3 different stays in 3 different style units




					dougp26364.smugmug.com
				




Santa Fe: Villas De Santa Fe









						DRI Villas De Santa Fe, May 2011 - dougp26364
					

Santa Fe New Mexico 2 bedroom unit




					dougp26364.smugmug.com


----------



## GT75

karibkeith said:


> Does anyone have a list?



This was everything including affiliates a few years ago.


----------



## dioxide45

buzglyd said:


> The timeshare division is separate. It caused problems in Carlsbad when Aviara turned into a Park Hyatt and denied Four Season owners access to hotel amenities which they had previously when it was a Four Seasons. Owners were not happy.


Perhaps separate, but not different in the sense that the timeshare division is its own company. With Hilton, Marriott and Wyndham, the timeshare companies were spun off several years ago. I don't think Four Seasons has done that. That same issue has come up a few times with other timeshare brands. Four Seasons would have to sell their timeshare division off. Could be done I guess, but it wouldn't fit into any of the other companies all that well since Four Seasons hotels are on their own.


----------



## dougp26364

karibkeith said:


> From the other side, I am a Diamond owner and this looks like horrible news to me. I went to the HGVC site and most of the places looked like hotels and not resorts. Also trying to get a list was like pulling teeth from a hen's mouth. Perhaps if I could sign in, I would get  better information. Does anyone have a list?



DRI owners aren’t going to gain much in way of new locations. What they might gain is better management. We left DRI in 2016 because the management fees where higher than Marriott and Hilton, but the quality of their resorts wasn’t anywhere close to Hilton or Marriott.


----------



## GT75

CalGalTraveler said:


> HGV is looking more and more like MVC/Vistana. Many locations. Legacy weeks portfolios, and a trust points system for upsell. Potentially an exchange to replace RCI? We should watch what MVC does to Vistana/Westin because I view HGVC system as similar to Vistana because it has it's own legacy mini-points system attached to deeds and contains upscale properties. Will take years to see rollout.


I think that many are seeing the statement "Over time, the majority of Diamond's resorts will be rebranded under a new HGV brand" that HGVC owners will have access to these resorts without changes to our ownership.    I don't think that this will be the case.   This isn't the case either in my very limited understanding of the Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt merger either.   I would expect that HGVC members will have to purchase something in order to have access to this new HGV brand.

I would honestly like to be wrong on this.


----------



## dioxide45

--Deleted--


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

GT75 said:


> I think that many are seeing the statement "Over time, the majority of Diamond's resorts will be rebranded under a new HGV brand" that HGVC owners will have access to these resorts without changes to our ownership.    I don't think that this will be the case.   This isn't the case either in my very limited understanding of the Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt merger either.   I would expect that HGVC members will have to purchase something in order to have access to this new HGV brand.
> 
> I would honestly like to be wrong on this.


Whatever is done needs to maintain inventory control and it also can't abrogate provisions of the acquired program.  That's why whenever Diamond has acquired another resort system, the acquired resort system turns into its own trust.  

It has also meant that each system operates independently, except to the extent that members in one system "upgrade" and add their interest in their home resort to another resort collection.  That has apparently been DRI's mechanism for opening up reservation ability across trusts.


----------



## pedro47

Apollo just purchased The Ventian Resort and Michaels Arts and Crafts stores in the past week. Their investment holders are looking for some huge future profits IMHO.


----------



## escanoe

Wow, take a few hours off from TUG ... and it is a whole new world when you come back. 

I am going to lay low for a few years, and someone can wake me up and tell me about the changes once they are implemented. I got way too caught up in the merger discussion when we were scared HGVC would be taken over in the past. Looking at all the other big mergers that have taken place in timeshares, it seems hard to look at them and anticipate what will happen. My only two predictions are that 1) it will be slow and 2) probably far less revolutionary than all the speculation on here.


----------



## bcoh630

Diamond Resorts are listed on their TUG forum
Diamond Resorts have 6 different tiers.

Diamond Resorts The Club points and Destination Exchange pdfs    240+ page listing


----------



## Jason245

My personal take:

1. Management benefits - This is probably much better for DRI than they could expect.  HGVC from my experience runs a very tight and high end ship with very high standards and quality. My experience when I have gone to DRI resorts has been hit or miss. HGVC is always top quality in my experience. 

2. Location beneftis - HGVC win - Lets be honest, HGVC resorts are great, but their portfolio of locations has been limited. I think there is great opportunity with this to give me and other HGVC owners access to more locations (assuming the exchange rates make sense). 

HGVC is very built up in a few locations, and was moving to slow to expand imho. 

3. Resort availability - Honestly I think this will be a wash in the long run. You have people who buy the week they want and stay every year and then you have people who view things as Points is Points.  Generally either way, if you book very early you will get what you want, and if you wait for the last minute you will get the leftovers... 

4. Industry as a whole -  I think this consolidation as well as the others creates serious concerns about the continued viability of exchange networks like RCI and II. Think about it, if you have locations everywhere in network why would you go out of network, and this really pushes towards that.  Unfortunatly, that means that we could see DVC write a specific trade deal with one of the big collectives of timeshares and pull out of RCI. 


Change is always concerning, and we will all have to wait and see, but as long as DRI doesn't cause a dilution of the HGVC experience or resort management standards, I think that lots of good could come from this.


----------



## brp

escanoe said:


> Wow, take a few hours off from TUG ... and it is a whole new world when you come back.
> 
> I am going to lay low for a few years, and someone can wake me up and tell me about the changes once they are implemented.



My take as well. Lots of discussion/speculation, but there is nothing at all going on. And it will be several years before this will have any impact (positive or negative) on HGVC owners.

Cheers.


----------



## Sandy VDH

@Jason245 I agree on a lot of those points. 

It is a eat or be eaten time in many timeshares systems.  HGVC was just too small and was going to be consumed.  It is much better for HGVC to buy DRI then the other way around, which was on the table last year.  I would have dumped my HGVC inventory if that event had happened.  I don't want anything to do with Diamond management. 

HGVC is a much better managed company, it is much better at customer facing policies that are mindful.  In all the Covid stuff, I have to give HGVC a huge applause for how they handled everything.  I think a lot of other companies failed on how they managed things, both from an actions perspective and from a communication point of view.   

HGVC is in it for the long haul, in most cases.  Many other public traded company are live and die by the quarter, and this starts you down the path of cutting corners, and costs.  Maintenance on units and resorts looks a little short of what you would be expecting, as in the case with many Diamond properties.  But HGVC properties have not really had this happen to any location that I am aware of.  

 I think DRI wins by obtaining a better managed and more customer friendly leadership.  I think HGVC wins by a diversification of locations which was happening but too slowly.


----------



## Jason245

Sandy VDH said:


> @Jason245 I agree on a lot of those points.
> 
> I  In all the Covid stuff, I have to give HGVC a huge applause for how they handled everything.  I think a lot of other companies failed on how they managed things, both from an actions perspective and from a communication point of view.



I stayed at multiple HGVC resorts and also several hotels and at least 1 non HGVC resort. I will point blank say that I was dissapointed with how non- Hilton branded Resorts or Hotels (I stayed at Hilton hotels and non hilton hotels), held standards compared to Hilton ones. 

Honestly, Hilton was Hands down the best/safest COVID experience I had.


----------



## ocdb8r

So, what is a bit flabbergasting to me is that no one seems to know what resorts Diamond actually owns.  I spent 30 minutes on the Diamond Board here and another 30 minutes on their own website, and I have no idea what the 92 resorts HGV is actually purchasing are. WTF?!?!?

My take after re-reading all the different announcements is that HGV will leverage the existing Diamond Trust product, rebrand it HGV points, and find a way to include as many existing HGV resorts in it as possible (likely via a combination of buying/repossessing deeded weeks and dropping them into the trust and creating some sort of internal exchange between trust points and deeded weeks, like Marriott did with DC Points).  Existing deed owners will be "upsold" on either exchanging their deeds for an HGV Trust Points product or a "pay to play" fee to be able to use their weeks in the trust pool (like Marriott did).  

I would bet this will have limited impact on existing inventory as they have already hinted that the Diamond resorts will be rebranded under a "a new HGV sub-brand" which says to me they acknowledge most of these resorts aren't up to current HGV Brand standards.  I suspect that means they will have lower point values than most existing HGV resorts, meaning trading in will be relatively expensive from a DRI points perspective.  On the other hand, HGV owners may be tempted to try some of the better Diamond resorts (reducing pressure on existing inventory)....and in the end it will be a wash (i.e. there will be no massive extra demand on existing HGV resorts).  

The devil in the details is what happens with future developments.  If HGV dumps all (or a large portion) of new development inventory like Maui, Cabo and Barbados into the trust; existing HGV owners will have slim pickings for these resorts unless they "pay to play" in the trust pool.  The one interesting things is that HGV seems to hint that it may not go all in on a trust product.  The full statement on the Investor Relations website includes the following:

*Accelerates launch of HGV-branded trust product offering: *rebrand Diamond’s properties over time to drive revenue growth in a new customer segment

Combining HGV's points-based deeded product with Diamond’s points-based trust structure will allow the Company to cater to a wider audience.
HGV’s deeded product provides premium pricing, inventory sourcing flexibility, and the ability to pre-sell projects to support strong project-level cash flow, while giving buyers and owners the value of guaranteed availability. 
The introduction of a trust product allows for lower barriers to ownership, reduced inventory delivery volatility and inventory recycling, enabling smoother sales and upgrades while providing buyers and owners network and pricing flexibility.
To me, this could mean HGV will continue to sell a deeded product as they believe it commands a premium price.  

Bottom line...yet another merger to wonder about.  Between owning HGV, Hyatt and Vistana....EVERYTHING is up in the air for me these days!


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

> So, what is a bit flabbergasting to me is that no one seems to know what resorts Diamond actually owns.  I spent 30 minutes on the Diamond Board here and another 30 minutes on their own website, and I have no idea what the 92 resorts HGV is actually purchasing are.



try this link: https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_23.pdf
Bear in mind that for many of the affiliate resorts the inventory is extremely limited.  They exist mostly so that Diamond could put a dot on a map to make themselves look bigger than they reallly are.  Same concept as a single guy putting a concave mirror on his bedroom ceiling.


----------



## pianodinosaur

CoVid has put a serious damper on our travel plans.  I love timesharing but what good is having all these additional travel options if we cannot use them?  We had booked a Greek Island and Turkey cruise out of Rome with Royal Caribbean for 2020 to celebrate my retirement.  That was cancelled so we scheduled a May 2021 Holy Land cruise out of Rome but that has now been cancelled.  HGVC has advised us that we will get another 125% upgrade for a new cruise.  Royal Caribbean has announced that they will be cruising out of Israel in 2022.  However, Odessey of the Seas was just locked up due to CoVid.  My wife is now pushing me to get out of timesharing because of all these cancellations. 

Frankly, we would both love to go back to the Club IntraWest resorts that are currently owned by Diamond.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dioxide45 said:


> Looks like Apollo is losing a bunch of money on the deal. DIdn't they pay over $2 billion to buy Diamond and now they are selling for $1.5 billion?



paid $2.2B, got $1.4B so lost $800m. Ouch.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> So glad this didn't go the other way. Hopefully, the system we are currently in will stay the same and we get access to the DRI resorts!



By the same token, we're hoping to get access to some HGVC reosrts.


----------



## buzglyd

"Same concept as a single guy putting a concave mirror on his bedroom ceiling."

I don't care who you are, that is funny. 

And yes you're right about dots on a map. A lot of clubs do that to make members think they're getting way more locations than they really are.


----------



## ocdb8r

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> try this link: https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_23.pdf
> Bear in mind that for many of the affiliate resorts the inventory is extremely limited. They exist mostly so that Diamond could put a dot on a map to make themselves look bigger than they reallly are. Same concept as a single guy putting a concave mirror on his bedroom ceiling.



This is EXACTLY my point though!  Everything published shows an artificial inflation of what DRI ACTUALLY OWNS (and thereby is actually selling to HGV).  I couldn't care less about the "affiliated" resorts as inventory is near nil.  What are the 92 resorts HGV is actually acquiring as part of this transaction?


----------



## tah

ocdb8r said:


> What are the 92 resorts HGV is actually acquiring as part of this transaction?



If you look at the information provided, each resort listed indicates if it is affiliated.  If it's not affiliated, it's a DRI owned resort

Here's the link again so you don't have to go back too many posts.  https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_23.pdf Page 7 talks about the types of resorts in their inventory

(And not trying to be the grammar police -- noting you are in Amsterdam so English may not be your primary language -- I think you mean that you "*couldn't* care less" )


----------



## Talent312

How long before we start whining that we can't book DRI online?
I predict integration with the HGVC system will be long+convoluted.
.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

ocdb8r said:


> This is EXACTLY my point though!  Everything published shows an artificial inflation of what DRI ACTUALLY OWNS (and thereby is actually selling to HGV).  I could care less about the "affiliated" resorts as inventory is near nil.  What are the 92 resorts HGV is actually acquiring as part of this transaction?


 When I did quick count of the resorts listed in the book that were *not* club affiliated I came up with 94 resorts.  I could easily have miscounted.  But that's close enough that I would think it's every resort in the guide *except* those identified as Club Affiliate. Which makes sense because has no ownership or operating stake in the affiliate resorts.


----------



## Sandy VDH

tah said:


> If you look at the information provided, each resort listed indicates if it is affiliated.  If it's not affiliated, it's a DRI owned resort
> 
> Here's the link again so you don't have to go back too many posts.  https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_23.pdf Page 7 talks about the types of resorts in their inventory



In the guide above it shows the following for each property....





So someone would have to go through the list and compile a list.  Unless one is located elsewhere.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Sandy VDH said:


> In the guide above it shows the following for each property....
> 
> View attachment 33275
> 
> So someone would have to go through the list and compile a list.  Unless one is located elsewhere.


Here's some info.  I'm not sure that this is completely up-to-date but it should be closeL

US Collection: https://faq.diamondresorts.com/Knowledgebase/US-Collection--What-resorts-are-in-the-US-Collection

Hawaii collection: https://faq.diamondresorts.com/Know...on--What-resorts-are-in-the-Hawaii-Collection

California collection: https://faq.diamondresorts.com/Know...hat-resorts-are-in-the-California-Collection?

can't find listings for Grand Pacific, Embarc (nee Intrawest), or the European Collection.


----------



## ocdb8r

tah said:


> If you look at the information provided, each resort listed indicates if it is affiliated.  If it's not affiliated, it's a DRI owned resort
> 
> Here's the link again so you don't have to go back too many posts.  https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_23.pdf Page 7 talks about the types of resorts in their inventory





T_R_Oglodyte said:


> When I did quick count of the resorts listed in the book that were *not* club affiliated I came up with 94 resorts.  I could easily have miscounted.  But that's close enough that I would think it's every resort in the guide *except* those identified as Club Affiliate. Which makes sense because has no ownership or operating stake in the affiliate resorts.



Thanks both - this makes it a bit easier.  If I get the energy, I'll put together a list based on the member guide.


----------



## geist1223

We are DRI Owners. With Club Select/Club Combination we are Platinum. We actually only own 19,000 DRI Points. How will this affect our Ownership and Benefits? Also with the DRI Exchange Program we have 2 Level 6's and 1 Level 2 Deposited. We have 5 years to use those. We recently changed from the Hawaiian Collection to Cabo Azul. 

We are not happy. We are in a state of confusion. Every one talks about how wonderful KBC is. We were not that impressed when we were there a couple years ago. They Beach was only about 15 feet at low tide and basically nil at high tide. We have also heard rumors of issues with KBC that may involve the underpinings of structure and also Pool issues.

We have enjoyed DRI and have learned to use the System to our Benefit. Nothing we can do about it. Wait and see what develops.


----------



## DazedandConfused

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> They exist mostly so that Diamond could put a dot on a map to make themselves look bigger than they reallly are.  Same concept as a single guy putting a concave mirror on his bedroom ceiling.



That is their mistake as my ceiling mirror is "convex" 

The image formed in a convex mirror is always virtual and "erect", whatever be the position of the object.









						Concave Mirrors And Convex Mirrors - Image Formation, Ray Diagram
					

Learn about Concave Mirrors And Convex Mirrors in-depth. Explore more about Concave Mirror Ray Diagram, Convex Mirror Ray Diagram and much more at BYJU'S.




					byjus.com


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

never mind.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

(never mind)^2


----------



## tschwa2

Talent312 said:


> How long before we start whining that we can't book DRI online?
> I predict integration with the HGVC system will be long+convoluted.
> .


or they will keep them separate and make you buy into HGVC and tell you with each person that converts, there will be less availability for the old legacy diamond users.


----------



## winger

BingoBangoBongo said:


> We stayed at a property Diamond now operates in Whistler (late June) and would look forward to getting back there.


Be aware, most of Diamonds' locations are "Affiliates", meaning low or almost no inventory


----------



## dayooper

ocdb8r said:


> Thanks both - this makes it a bit easier.  If I get the energy, I'll put together a list based on the member guide.



I‘m starting one now and I’m almost through Florida. It’s a slow go on my IPad, but it’s interesting to see what resorts they have. On a side note, if you ever want to go to Kissimmee, DRI is a the way to go.


----------



## ocdb8r

tah said:


> If you look at the information provided, each resort listed indicates if it is affiliated.  If it's not affiliated, it's a DRI owned resort
> 
> Here's the link again so you don't have to go back too many posts.  https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_23.pdf Page 7 talks about the types of resorts in their inventory


So, the guide doesn't include any of the Embarc/Intrawest resorts...what's the deal?  Are they owned by DRI or not?  Can we expect they're included in this deal?

Otherwise, I just went through and for DRI owned resorts (not affiliates) I'm not overly excited as an HGV owner.  Looks like some nice additions in AZ, Cabo, St. Maarten, UK and Spain (but a LOT of Canary Islands, which isn't that interesting) and that's about it.  The rest of the US locations are not very interesting or the accommodations look subpar.  If we can add Embarc/Intrawest to the list there are some nice additions with Canada, Palm Springs, Sandestin and Zihuatanejo.

A few interesting observations:

The Crescent in South Beach Miami is right next door to the McAlpin.  Good opportunity for some synergies there.
There is a TON of Orlando area inventory...like an ABSURD amount.  
Everything in Asia, Australasia, Central/South America and Africa appeared to be "affiliates".


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

winger said:


> Be aware, most of Diamonds' locations are "Affiliates", meaning low or almost no inventory


The only Whistler resort that shows up in the Diamond resort directory to Clocktower, which is a Vacation Internationale resort.  Diamond gets some inventory from Vacation Internationale because there are some Diamond Club members who started out as VI members, but then bought into Club Sunterra when Sunterra was the resort manager for VRI.  So when VI booted Sunterra as resort manager, a deal was cut to give DRI access to a certain amount of VI inventory, corresponding to the VI inventory that had been added to Club Sunterra.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

ocdb8r said:


> So, the guide doesn't include any of the Embarc/Intrawest resorts...what's the deal?  Are they owned by DRI or not?  Can we expect they're included in this deal?


Good question.  DRI owns Embarc, but there is a strong firewall between Embarc and the other DRI resorts. 



ocdb8r said:


> Everything in Asia, Australasia, Central/South America and Africa appeared to be "affiliates".


 Yep.  I believe the only places where DRI actually owns/operates resorts is Europe (including the Atlantic Islands), the US (including Hawaii), Mexico, and St. Martin.


----------



## dayooper

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Good question.  DRI owns Embarc, but there is a strong firewall between Embarc and the other DRI resorts.



Isn‘t that firewall there because the Embarc owners really put up a fuss about associating with DRI? They might be more receptive to HGVC. They used to have a nice relationship a few years ago (prior to Diamond acquiring them).


----------



## ConejoRed

O.k... here is a quick list from the various sources.  I have probably missed one or two as I only have 81.  Then if you add in the 9 Embarc resorts you get to 90 (but apparently there should be 92). Only included those that did not have an affiliate or managed indication.  


Alpine ClubAustriaBell Rock InnAZKohls Ranch LodgeAZLos Abrigados Resort and SpaAZPVC at the RoundhouseAZRancho Manana ResortAZScottsdale Links ResortAZScottsdale Villa MirageAZSedona SummitAZThe Ridge on Sedona Golf ResortAZVarsity Clubs of AmericaAZLake Tahoe Vacation ResortCAMarquis Villas ResortCAPalm Canyon ResortCARiviera Oaks Resort & RacquetCARiviera Shores ResortCARiviera Beach ResortCA Cala BlancaCanary IslandsClub del CarmenCanary IslandsJardines del SolCanary IslandsRoyal Sunset BeachCanary IslandsRoyal Tenerife Country ClubCanary IslandsSanta Barbara Golf and Ocean ClubCanary IslandsSunset Bay ClubCanary IslandsSunset Harbor ClubCanary IslandsSunset View ClubCanary IslandsThe Historic Crags LodgeCOAlhambra at PoincianaFLAlhambra VillasFLBarefoot'n ResortFLBryan's Spanish CoveFLCharter Club Resort of NaplesFLCrescent Resort on South BeachFLCypress Pointe ResortFLDaytona Beach RegencyFLGrand Beach ResortFLGrande Villas ResortFLLiki Tiki VillageFLMystic Dunes Resort and GolfFLOrbit One Vacation VillasFLParkay Intgernational ResortFLPolynesian Isles ResortFLThe Cove on Ormond BeachFLLe Club MouginsFranceRoyal Regency FranceKaanapali Beach ClubHIThe Modern HonoluluHIThe Point at PoipuHIVarsity Clubs of America - South bendINPalazzo CatalaniItalyCabo Azul Resort and SpaMexicoSea of Cortez Beach ClubMexicoThe Suites at Fall CreekMOBeachwoods ResortNCVillas de Santa FeNMCancun Resort Las VegasNVDesert Paradise ResortNVPolo Tower SuitesNVPolo Tower VillasNVVilar Do GolfPortugalLos Amigos beach ClubSpainRoyal Oasis Club at Pueblo QuintaSpainSahara SunsetSpainWhite Sands BeachSpainFlamingo Beach ResortSt. MaartenRoyal Palm Beach ResortSt. MaartenBent Creek Golf VillageTNCromer County ClubUKPine Lake ResorUKThurnham HallUKWoodford bridge County ClubUKWychnor Park Country ClubUKThe Kenmore ClubUKCedar Breaks Lodge and SpaUTBeach Quarters ResortVABoardwalk Resort and VillasVAGreensprings Vacation ResortVAOcean Beach ClubVAOceanaire ResortVAThe Historic Powahatan ResortVATurtle Cay ResortVA


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

dayooper said:


> Isn‘t that firewall there because the Embarc owners really put up a fuss about associating with DRI? They might be more receptive to HGVC. They used to have a nice relationship a few years ago (prior to Diamond acquiring them).


IIRC - there is something in the legal documents created by Intrawest that dictated that DRI keep Embarc completely separated.  No idea what that might have been, since it wasn't a point of interest for me.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Boy what's old is new again. HGVC and Embarc/Intrawest previously had direct trading prior to Diamond acquisition. Now it's back (maybe). I don't believe the Embarc resort we stayed at Whistler was Clocktower because there is a resort by that name in town. This one also had a clocktower but it is next to the Fairmont up the hill from town. Nice resort with great walk on skiing. Would love to visit again.

Synergies with the Modern next to HHV.

KBP will be a great addition. They should have acquired when it was an Embassy Suites. IMO the location is better than HGV in Kihei. Right on the beach (no road) next to the Westin Kaanapali resort and the upscale Hono Koa resort. The KBP building needs renovation and updating. IMO the pink is hideous, the metal railings make it look cheap. Pool looked nice. The interiors need an update too based on the photos.


----------



## letsgobobby

Cabo Azul and Embarc seem to til the list of appealing DRI Properties. Anyone care too add to that list?


----------



## Fried_shrimp

letsgobobby said:


> Cabo Azul and Embarc seem to til the list of appealing DRI Properties. Anyone care too add to that list?



to note, Diamond members cannot access Embarq properties and vice versa. We own Embarq but we do not play together.

appealing propeties opens up a whole can of worms as what is appealing to one may not be appealing to another. Nice Diamond properties are Cabo Azul, Cancun Resort, Charter Club, Mystic Dunes, Grand Beach, Polo Towers, Oceanaire, Greensprings, Bent Creek, KBC, Point @ Poipu, The Cove. There are several others really depending on what is appealing to you.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Talent312 said:


> How long before we start whining that we can't book DRI online?
> I predict integration with the HGVC system will be long+convoluted.
> .



and vice versa for Diamond members wanting to book HGVC properties.

BTW, can y'all booking nightly in HGVC or only weekly? I ask because while y'all have a point system, it has a different basis than ours.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

ocdb8r said:


> So, the guide doesn't include any of the Embarc/Intrawest resorts...what's the deal?  Are they owned by DRI or not?  Can we expect they're included in this deal?
> 
> Otherwise, I just went through and for DRI owned resorts (not affiliates) I'm not overly excited as an HGV owner.  Looks like some nice additions in AZ, Cabo, St. Maarten, UK and Spain (but a LOT of Canary Islands, which isn't that interesting) and that's about it.  The rest of the US locations are not very interesting or the accommodations look subpar.  If we can add Embarc/Intrawest to the list there are some nice additions with Canada, Palm Springs, Sandestin and Zihuatanejo.
> 
> A few interesting observations:
> 
> The Crescent in South Beach Miami is right next door to the McAlpin.  Good opportunity for some synergies there.
> There is a TON of Orlando area inventory...like an ABSURD amount.
> Everything in Asia, Australasia, Central/South America and Africa appeared to be "affiliates".



Diamond owns Embarq but Embarq's HOA was successful in keeping the Embarq properties from merging with Diamond properties.

Most of the Orlando properties were picked up with the acquisition of Island One.

Everything outside of US/Europe/Hawaii/Mexico IS affiliated. Diamond owns about 95 resorts and has about 300 affiliates.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

ConejoRed said:


> O.k... here is a quick list from the various sources.  I have probably missed one or two as I only have 81.  Then if you add in the 9 Embarc resorts you get to 90 (but apparently there should be 92). Only included those that did not have an affiliate or managed indication.
> 
> 
> Alpine ClubAustriaBell Rock InnAZKohls Ranch LodgeAZLos Abrigados Resort and SpaAZPVC at the RoundhouseAZRancho Manana ResortAZScottsdale Links ResortAZScottsdale Villa MirageAZSedona SummitAZThe Ridge on Sedona Golf ResortAZVarsity Clubs of AmericaAZLake Tahoe Vacation ResortCAMarquis Villas ResortCAPalm Canyon ResortCARiviera Oaks Resort & RacquetCARiviera Shores ResortCARiviera Beach ResortCACala BlancaCanary IslandsClub del CarmenCanary IslandsJardines del SolCanary IslandsRoyal Sunset BeachCanary IslandsRoyal Tenerife Country ClubCanary IslandsSanta Barbara Golf and Ocean ClubCanary IslandsSunset Bay ClubCanary IslandsSunset Harbor ClubCanary IslandsSunset View ClubCanary IslandsThe Historic Crags LodgeCOAlhambra at PoincianaFLAlhambra VillasFLBarefoot'n ResortFLBryan's Spanish CoveFLCharter Club Resort of NaplesFLCrescent Resort on South BeachFLCypress Pointe ResortFLDaytona Beach RegencyFLGrand Beach ResortFLGrande Villas ResortFLLiki Tiki VillageFLMystic Dunes Resort and GolfFLOrbit One Vacation VillasFLParkay Intgernational ResortFLPolynesian Isles ResortFLThe Cove on Ormond BeachFLLe Club MouginsFranceRoyal RegencyFranceKaanapali Beach ClubHIThe Modern HonoluluHIThe Point at PoipuHIVarsity Clubs of America - South bendINPalazzo CatalaniItalyCabo Azul Resort and SpaMexicoSea of Cortez Beach ClubMexicoThe Suites at Fall CreekMOBeachwoods ResortNCVillas de Santa FeNMCancun Resort Las VegasNVDesert Paradise ResortNVPolo Tower SuitesNVPolo Tower VillasNVVilar Do GolfPortugalLos Amigos beach ClubSpainRoyal Oasis Club at Pueblo QuintaSpainSahara SunsetSpainWhite Sands BeachSpainFlamingo Beach ResortSt. MaartenRoyal Palm Beach ResortSt. MaartenBent Creek Golf VillageTNCromer County ClubUKPine Lake ResorUKThurnham HallUKWoodford bridge County ClubUKWychnor Park Country ClubUKThe Kenmore ClubUKCedar Breaks Lodge and SpaUTBeach Quarters ResortVABoardwalk Resort and VillasVAGreensprings Vacation ResortVAOcean Beach ClubVAOceanaire ResortVAThe Historic Powahatan ResortVATurtle Cay ResortVA



Fairways Forest, NC and Palazzo Soriano, Italy and Sunrise Ridge, TN


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

CalGalTraveler said:


> I don't believe the Embarc resort we stayed at Whistler was clocktower. It was next to the Fairmont up the hill from town. Nice resort with great walk on skiing (but I hope they updated the shabby chic furnishings since we visited).


Correct.  The Intrawest/Embarc is not Clocktower.  When I commented about DRI inventory I wasn't thinking about Embarc because that is partitioned off from everything else DRI.



CalGalTraveler said:


> KBP will be a great addition. They should have acquired when it was an Embassy Suites. IMO the location is better than HGV in Kihei. Right on the beach (no road) next to the Westin Kaanapali resort and the upscale Hono Koa resort. The KBP building needs renovation and updating. IMO the pink is hideous, the metal railings make it look cheap and the grounds seem to be missing something. The interiors need an update too based on the photos.


Fifteen or more years ago, Hilton was negotiating with Sunterra to buy both Embassy Vacation Club resorts in Hawaii - Ka'anapali and Po'ipu. This was before Sunterra added those resorts to Club Sunterra.  I don't remember if they still had the Embassy name. 

Sunterra actually didn't own those properties outright.  Both were owned by partnerships, and Sunterra was the managing partner at each resort.  So that made negotiations more difficult.  We were told by several  people at the resorts, who I believed to straight-shooters (including a couple of people involved at a senior level in resort management and operations and not with sales), that a deal was close to be signed and that when we came back next time it would be a Hilton property.  Also that Ka'anapali was the property Hilton really wanted; Hilton was less enamored of Po'ipu because it wasn't set up like a hotel. 

The sale was never completed, and after the deal collapsed Sunterra created the Sunterra Hawaii trust to add the EVR properties they controlled into Club Sunterra.  They also bought out the partnerships and became sole owner of the Developer interests at the resorts, including the management contracts.

*********

This was also the period when Sunterra was going downhill financially, and resort maintenance was suffering throughout the entire Sunterra operation.  We stayed at Ka'anapali one time, and saw that resort maintenance was lacking.  While were at the resort, I made some posts on TUG about the resort conditions, providing specific details of what we noted.  (Particularly a lot of corrosion of metalwork, including in the atrium area.)

A day later I got a call from the Ka'anapali resort manager, verifying that I was the person who had posted on TUG.  He was quite gracious and immediately acknowledged the issues I had pointed and the maintenance under-funding.  He asked to meet with me, and I agreed.  He again acknowledged the issues I noted, said they were aware and had developed a program of corrective activities, including a corporate commitment to increased funding for the program over several years.  He gave me a tour of the property describing the program and priorities.  He also pointed a number of items that I hadn't seen that were clear issues. 

In the cobwebbed recesses of my memory, I have a bit of a recollection that the sticky point that collapsed the Hilton purchase was an inability to agree on the price discount to be provided based on backlogged maintenance.  Most likely, what Hilton considered to be minimum required rehabilitation to meet their standards was significantly higher than Sunterra's minimum standards, and they couldn't close the gap.

So here we are nearly 20 years later, and Hilton is finally getting their Ka'anapali resort.  Interesting to think how different things would be now had that Hilton sale gone through.


----------



## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> and vice versa for Diamond members wanting to book HGVC properties.
> 
> BTW, can y'all booking nightly in HGVC or only weekly? I ask because while y'all have a point system, it has a different basis than ours.



It depends. If you are using your points to make a club reservations, you can make a reservation as short as 3 nights. If you are using your home week, that’s only a week reservation. At 30 days, you can book 2 nights or more using cash (open season).


----------



## alexadeparis

bnoble said:


> So what does this mean?


Well if Embarc and Grand Pacific won’t be accessible ( I guess they must be affiliates) then there is nothing else of interest for me in this “merger”. And from what i read in the CEO’s letters, they will rebrand the Diamonds as a new category entirely: let’s say they call it “Diamond by HGV” . It will probably operate like the Hilton club and HGVC interact now. A limited crossover booking window. and that will eliminate any possibility of someone in a different category during limited club use timeframes from getting any truly prime inventory, as those reservations will be long gone before the shared booking window opens.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> It depends. If you are using your points to make a club reservations, you can make a reservation as short as 3 nights. If you are using your home week, that’s only a week reservation. At 30 days, you can book 2 nights or more using cash (open season).



Point owners in Diamond don't have "home" weeks. We simply own points in a Trust (US, Hawaii, Latino, Europe). So the minimum reservation length is 3 nights? That sucks (Diamond has a minimum of 2 nights which is great for doing a Fri/Sat weekend and a maximum of 84 nights per reservation).


----------



## alexadeparis

karibkeith said:


> Where did you see acquiring access to Embarc resorts? Diamond Club members have not had this access since Diamond bought Intrawest.


I was just looking at their site this morning, they are all listed under their locations, and I didn’t realize they are just affiliates, I thought maybe they bought them out previously.


----------



## buzglyd

Fried_shrimp said:


> to note, Diamond members cannot access Embarq properties and vice versa. We own Embarq but we do not play together.
> 
> appealing propeties opens up a whole can of worms as what is appealing to one may not be appealing to another. Nice Diamond properties are Cabo Azul, Cancun Resort, Charter Club, Mystic Dunes, Grand Beach, Polo Towers, Oceanaire, Greensprings, Bent Creek, KBC, Point @ Poipu, The Cove. There are several others really depending on what is appealing to you.



But Club Intrawest was once an affiliate of HGV prior to the Diamond buy. Hopefully that can resume. I've only stayed at the Palm Desert resort and we really liked it.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

alexadeparis said:


> Well if Embarc and Grand Pacific won’t be accessible ( I guess they must be affiliates) then there is nothing else of interest for me in this “merger”. And from what i read in the CEO’s letters, they will rebrand the Diamonds as a new category entirely: let’s say they call it “Diamond by HGV” . It will probably operate like the Hilton club and HGVC interact now. A limited crossover booking window. and that will eliminate any possibility of someone in a different category during limited club use timeframes from getting any truly prime inventory, as those reservations will be long gone before the shared booking window opens.



Grand Pacific is an affiliate. Embarq is Diamond owned but it's assets were not intertwined with Diamond's. Diamond owned Embarq the way Apollo owned Diamond.


----------



## ConejoRed

Fried_shrimp said:


> Fairways Forest, NC and Palazzo Soriano, Italy and Sunrise Ridge, TN



Fairways Forest and Pallazzo said Affiliated Resort and Sunrise Ridge indicated Managed Resort  on the link provided so I did not include those (https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_23.pdf).... have those changed or since Sunrise is a Managed Resort that management would transfer over to HGVC?


----------



## Fried_shrimp

ConejoRed said:


> Fairways Forest and Pallazzo said Affiliated Resort and Sunrise Ridge indicated Managed Resort  on the link provided so I did not include those (https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_23.pdf).... have those changed or since Sunrise is a Managed Resort that management would transfer over to HGVC?
> View attachment 33278
> View attachment 33279
> View attachment 33280



Diamond is not known for updating it's website in a timely fashion.  Fairway Forest, Palazzo at Soriano, and Sunrise Ridge are all Diamond managed resorts.


----------



## ConejoRed

I own at HGVC Grand Pacific Mar Brisa which can be dual affiliated. The resort started out as a Grand Pacific developed property and then HGVC took over.  Because I own one of the original units it is part of the GP group and I also qualified it as an HGVC unit, I have already have access to all the HGVC properties and all the Grand Pacific Properties.   I wonder if HGVC will now expand the relationship with the other Grand Pacific resorts since it seems DRI has an affiliation with them as well.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

ConejoRed said:


> Fairways Forest and Pallazzo said Affiliated Resort and Sunrise Ridge indicated Managed Resort  on the link provided so I did not include those (https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/us-member-benefits-book-combined_23.pdf).... have those changed or since Sunrise is a Managed Resort that management would transfer over to HGVC?
> View attachment 33278
> View attachment 33279
> View attachment 33280


I think you need to include managed resorts.  I believe  your lost should exclude only resorts that are identified as club affiliated.


----------



## ConejoRed

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I think you need to include managed resorts.  I believe  your lost should exclude only resorts that are identified as club affiliated.



I agree that "managed" resorts should be probably be included for this purpose.


----------



## DazedandConfused

winger said:


> Be aware, most of Diamonds' locations are "Affiliates", meaning low or almost no inventory



I really dont care for any affiliates (HGVC or Diamond) as getting those are challenging. As I said before, this is probably more bad news for me as a HGVC member than good as I am not sure what resorts are good (ie comparable to Elara, NYC, Tuscany, etc) and what ones are more like Motel 6 

Perhaps someone can share the CORE Diamond resorts are are nice resorts (and kissimmee is not that desirable as HGVC already has 4 resorts in Orlando)


----------



## dandjane1

dioxide45 said:


> Looks like Apollo is losing a bunch of money on the deal. DIdn't they pay over $2 billion to buy Diamond and now they are selling for $1.5 billion?


Looks like the "big rumor" about "going public" got squashed by the WuFlu pandemic. That was the "hot tip" in Summer of 2019. HAH.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

IMHO...Just like any acquisition, it wouldn't surprise me if HGVC pares the tree - sells or spins off some low end Diamond resorts that will cost more to upgrade to the Hilton brand standard than to keep owners satisfied with maintenance fees to cover this upgrade. Especially some of the redundant properties in Florida, Vegas and in less popular locations - Cayugas Mexico? Canary Islands?

It was rumored that Hilton Hotel brand was concerned about Diamond taking over HGVC and the effect on the brand. I surmise that HGVC will be evaluating each property to determine if each meets the Hilton Brand standard so they don't risk losing the brand license.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMHO...Just like any acquisition, it wouldn't surprise me if HGVC pares the tree - sells or spins off some low end Diamond resorts that will cost more to upgrade to the Hilton brand standard than to keep owners satisfied with maintenance fees to cover this upgrade. Especially some of the redundant properties in Florida, Vegas and in strange places - Cayugas Mexico? Canary Islands?


The developers/resort managers don't really own any properties. They may own individual weeks within a resort, but generally the resorts are owned by the owners and controlled by an HOA BOD. It is possible that HGVC could either drop the management of several resorts or sell the management rights to someone else. Not sure who else. The resorts could also become independant and have management taken over by smaller management companies like VRI (owned by Marriott Vacations Worldwide).

When DRI took over resorts, they jacked up the maintenance fees. From what I understand, early on they would also do a lot to upgrade the resorts and bring them up to better quality. Later, they just jacked up the fees without much return for the owners. That money had to go somewhere though. I think HGVC could over time improve a lot of the resorts if the resort HOAs= and BOD are willing. If they aren't willing then HGV and the HOA can part ways and the resort kind of goes into oblivion and can really only trade via RCI or II (for the most part). It would often be in their best interest to get the upgrades and stay in the club as it should leave them with better options for us. Some owners just don't see the value in that though and are happy to use what they own.


----------



## Magus

DazedandConfused said:


> I really dont care for any affiliates (HGVC or Diamond) as getting those are challenging. As I said before, this is probably more bad news for me as a HGVC member than good as I am not sure what resorts are good (ie comparable to Elara, NYC, Tuscany, etc) and what ones are more like Motel 6
> 
> Perhaps someone can share the CORE Diamond resorts are are nice resorts (and kissimmee is not that desirable as HGVC already has 4 resorts in Orlando)



Come on. There is a huge difference between motel 6 ($40 a night) and HGV level hotels/resorts ($200-500/night retail)within the industry; motel 6 is considered budget and most HGV are upper upscale. There are 6 tiers between the two. Keep in mind for every person like you there are probably two happy to stay at equiv of a Hampton inn for twice as many nights. And while that may not be good enough for you, keep in mind Hampton inn is the most popular hotel in North America - by far.


----------



## NOLA47

buzglyd said:


> But Club Intrawest was once an affiliate of HGV prior to the Diamond buy. Hopefully that can resume. I've only stayed at the Palm Desert resort and we really liked it.


Within the timeshare system, I don’t know if affiliate and managed have the same meaning but HGVC managed Club Intrawest in Sandestin.  HGVC members had easy access to the property.  I do hope that is reinstated.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> Diamond owns Embarq but Embarq's HOA was successful in keeping the Embarq properties from merging with Diamond properties.
> 
> Most of the Orlando properties were picked up with the acquisition of Island One.
> 
> Everything outside of US/Europe/Hawaii/Mexico IS affiliated. Diamond owns about 95 resorts and has about 300 affiliates.



I heard that even the resorts they own, they don't own all the units in the resort.  Therefore, even though there are 95 resorts in the Diamond Resort System, there are somewhat less units owned.

AVAILABILITY to reserve what a member doesn't own to me is the key issue in all of this.

The quality standard and the number of points assigned to the Diamond Resorts is critical.  The Diamond Properties are substandard compared to HGVC resorts then those resorts shouldn't be part of the HGVC exchange system until they are upgraded.   The ones that are HGVC quality or close enough in quality that they can be readily upgraded could be assigned HGVC points to be used in the HGVC reservation system.  Depending on how many members and the number of points that each of those new members have the availabilty at some of the HGVC could become very tight.


----------



## Grammarhero

So am I a HGVC owner now?  I bought my DRI TS for $1.  I am hoping that HGVC has a better deedback program.


----------



## terces

My guess is that there is no free lunch in life, and in particular in the time share world.  HGVC will want a pound of flesh somewhere along the line for access to any additional resorts from the DRI collection.  I had to come to peace with the offerings that HGVC has to date.  Any access to Kannapali or other top end DRI resorts would be a bonus, but I am not holding my breath.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

From this comment (highlights added):








						Welcome to HGVC!
					

Welcome back, Doug !  You and DRI were meant to be   DRI always seems to be coming back around to me like a cosmic pimple




					tugbbs.com
				






> *6. Can I transfer my HGV timeshare to Diamond?*
> No, your timeshare ownership cannot be transferred to Diamond. Over time, _some _of Diamond’s existing resorts may be _rebranded into the HGV family_, and you may be offered additional purchase opportunities at that time. Rebranding of Diamond’s resorts is expected to take place over a phased, multi-year period.
> …
> *16. Will Diamond resorts meet HGV’s brand standards?*
> Over time, _the majority_ of Diamond’s resorts will be _rebranded under a new HGV brand._ This _new product will complement our existing Hilton Grand Vacations and By Hilton Club brands_. Rebranding of Diamond resorts is expected to take place over a phased, multi-year period.




Item #6 suggests that some Diamond resorts will be rebranded as HGV resorts.  I would expect those to be the upper end DRI properties - probably most of the properties that are in the DRI Hawaii Collection since that Collection was intended to be for the higher end resorts.

Item #16 suggests that a new brand will be created with the DRI properties that don't get converted to HGV.  Presumably this would be a "downscale" brand from HGV.  This will give the sales teams something to pitch to people who might be finding HGV too rich for their blood. Wouldn't surprise me to see them rebranded as something like Hampton Vacation Club.

If these guesses are correct, I suspect they already have a good idea of which resorts they want to bring into HGV and the changes they intend to make before the rebranding.  Until those changes are made, they will keep them as Diamond resorts.  There's also a significant amount of legal and logistic work that needs to get done.  It's not going to be easy to sort out how a Diamond resort, with ownership interests held by individual owners and by the Diamond collections, can move over to HGV while preserving continuity in owner usage rights and privileges in both systems.

As for the remaining resorts - the "Hampton Vacation Club" brand level - I expect the first priority will be to identify resorts that HGV wants to carry the new brand, and which resorts they might want to get rid of. They probably have a pretty good idea of that already from the pre-acquisition due diligence, but it wouldn't suprise me if they spent a bit more observing the resort operations and the market positions before coming to final decisions. They also need to prepare upgrade plans for the resorts they want to keep, and then work up the capital spending plan for the upgrades The resorts they decide to keep will then go through a period of making whatever upgrades or changes are needed to meet whatever quality standards they want to have for the new brand.  Once that is complete, the rebranding will occur.  This process will likely extend over quite a few years. I would also expect maintenance fee increases, just as when Diamond acquired Sunterra and began making upgrades.

As for any resorts that they don't believe warrant upgrade to meet the standards of the new "Hampton Vacation Club" brand, HGV will then need to figure out how to dispose of those. They can't just drop the resort, because ownership is those resorts is held by one of the Diamond trusts, where it is mingled with all other resorts.  Inventory control also requires that the number and type of units or occupancy interests owned by the trust balance with the total usage rights of the trust owners.  HGV would not be able to simply jettison resorts because then there would be an imbalance between unit availability and trust ownership interests.  (The governing documents for the trusts require this balance - except apparently for the European collection.).  So if they get rid of a resort they simultaneously would have to add another resort to offset the loss of inventory.


----------



## dioxide45

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Item #16 suggests that a new brand will be created with the DRI properties that don't get converted to HGV. Presumably this would be a "downscale" brand from HGV. This will give the sales teams something to pitch to people who might be finding HGV too rich for their blood. Wouldn't surprise me to see them rebranded as something like Hampton Vacation Club.


The thing is, Marriott already tried that years ago with their Horizons brand and it failed miserably. Perhaps the market demographics are different now, but the younger millennials that they would be targeting with such a product is far different than the Gen X market that Marriott was targeting years ago. The market they would be trying to target are all about booking on AirBnB with limited commitments that timeshares would bring.


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## DazedandConfused

Magus said:


> Come on. There is a huge difference between motel 6 ($40 a night) and HGV level hotels/resorts ($200-500/night retail)within the industry; motel 6 is considered budget and most HGV are upper upscale. There are 6 tiers between the two. Keep in mind for every person like you there are probably two happy to stay at equiv of a Hampton inn for twice as many nights. And while that may not be good enough for you, keep in mind Hampton inn is the most popular hotel in North America - by far.



Perhaps I was a little too critical, but having 100 affiliates that are super challenging to book is not too helpful. Also, have a bunch of 2 star resorts are not interesting either. So I guess, I need to see what are the best 10 or so Diamond resorts out there


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

dioxide45 said:


> The thing is, Marriott already tried that years ago with their Horizons brand and it failed miserably. Perhaps the market demographics are different now, but the younger millennials that they would be targeting with such a product is far different than the Gen X market that Marriott was targeting years ago. The market they would be trying to target are all about booking on AirBnB with limited commitments that timeshares would bring.


I don't see that as targeting the AirBnB/VRBO crowd.  That community is not a viable market for timeshares of any type. My kids are in that crowd. They love our timeshares, but they have less than zero interest in ever owning one themselves because AirBnB/VRBO fit their lives much better.  (Actually, had those platforms existed in 1999 I don't think we would have got involved with timeshares ourselves.)

Where I think this might position is to the people who are motivated on the sales floor to consider a timeshare, but won't bite on the main product due to price.  This could fit into that downsell market.

But the main place this would work is in the sales room at the "Hampton Vacation Club" resorts themselves.  That's going to be a different crowd than the people at the HGV resorts. It's also the same sales program that Diamond has been running at those resorts anyway, with decent success. 

In fact Diamond itself has been using this two tier strategy for quite a few years.  The Hawaii collection was created and is marketed to prospects as the upscale collection, and is offered at a higher price point.


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## ocdb8r

DazedandConfused said:


> Perhaps I was a little too critical, but having 100 affiliates that are super challenging to book is not too helpful. Also, have a bunch of 2 star resorts are not interesting either. So I guess, I need to see what are the best 10 or so Diamond resorts out there



I mentioned up-thread that I was not super excited.  However, there are some Diamond owned/managed resorts that look interesting to me and that I would consider exchanging into, including:

Sedona Summit
Scottsdale Links
Cabo Azul
The Point and Poipu (Kauai)
Lake Tahoe Vacation Resort
Royal Palm Beach Villas (St. Maarten)
Palazzo Catalani (Italian Countryside)
Royal Oasis Club at Pueblo Quinta (Malaga, Spain)
Any of the Embarc/Intrawest locations (would particularly like access to Zihuatanejo) 
I have not included any of the Balearic Island resorts, although some look nice, as it's not of particular interest to me and way overbuilt with timeshares (meaning there is plenty of choice regardless what system you are in).  Ditto for the Orlando area resorts.

I also noted upthread that the Crescent Resort South Beach Miami is interesting given it's right next door to the McAlpin...and we like staying in this area.

Otherwise, nothing caught my eye as interesting or at the level I would want to visit.


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## tpdgfmt

ConejoRed said:


> I own at HGVC Grand Pacific Mar Brisa which can be dual affiliated. The resort started out as a Grand Pacific developed property and then HGVC took over.  Because I own one of the original units it is part of the GP group and I also qualified it as an HGVC unit, I have already have access to all the HGVC properties and all the Grand Pacific Properties.   I wonder if HGVC will now expand the relationship with the other Grand Pacific resorts since it seems DRI has an affiliation with them as well.


Hilton has a lot of experience integrating other timeshare systems and resorts into its Club.  I believe it began with the acquisition of Mariner years ago when Hilton was just getting into the timeshare business.  Hilton has also brought individual existing resorts into the Club such as the Bay Club in Hawaii, Grand Pacific's Marbrisa and Grand Pacific Palisades and Carlsbad Seapointe Resort at Carlsbad, California, and Elara in Las Vegas.  More recently, it has worked with developers in South Carolina to bring new resorts built by others into the Club.  In every case of which I am aware, Hilton has respected the ownership of owners of the resorts brought into HGVC and been able to offer HGVC members additional vacation alternatives. HGVC owners tend to complain about the lack of availability of SW Florida affiliate resorts, but that seems to be a function of Hilton's respect for the ownership rights of owners at those resorts, many of whom owned long before HGVC existed and did not want to join the Club.  I suspect the same can be said for Seapointe, which existed long before it became part of HGVC. Bringing those resorts into the Club did not hurt Hilton's other owners and has provided some opportunity to exchange into them, even if it is a limited opportunity.   Then there has been a sliding scale for the integrations of the Bay Club, Palisades, Marbrisa, Elara, and the South Carolina resorts.  The newer they were, the more the owners at those resorts have become HGVC members (at the newer resorts, many if not most of the owners bought as HGVC members) and more inventory at those resorts became available to HGVC owners.  Again, no one got hurt.  In every case, Hilton's integration of a resort or a company into HGVC has been thoughtful of both its Club members and the owners of resorts being integrated into the Club.

Hilton's email to owners yesterday states in relevant part and in bold, "*What's Not Changing: Putting You First."  *I like many of you am leery of anything said by a large corporation. On the other hand, this one (Hilton Grand Vacations) in my opinion has a track record of doing exactly this:  putting us first.  When I look back over my 20 years as a Club member, Hilton actually has put me first time after time.  It says in bold print that it is not changing this, and I have seen no facts to the contrary.  For months I like many of you HGVC members worried that Diamond would acquire HGV.  Now HGV has acquired Diamond, so the biggest risk of all doesn't appear to be happening (I am aware in the corporate world that an acquired corporation can actually be the acquirer, but I don't think that is happening here).  Other contributors have pointed out that Diamond charges high maintenance fees, provides mediocre maintenance of its resorts, and has some (but not all) substandard resorts.  Hilton has a track record to the contrary.  It will probably work on all of these issues, but it will take time.  Much of what has or needs to be done likely has to be done at the board and owner level at each individual resort.  As far as bringing any resort into the Club, Hilton has a lot of experience doing this, so I expect it will use its experience and knowledge to create a win-win for us owners as much as is possible.

HGV has just been through a year that can only be described as financial hell.  Whereas in 2019 its net income was $216 million, in 2020 it lost $201 million.  I don't know Diamond's results, but the hospitality industry generally had a terrible year.  One way or another, there is no reason to think Diamond had a great year, either.  I believe Hilton's press release when it said that this business consolidation "enables significant value creation from scale," "rebrand(s) Diamond's properties over time to drive revenue growth," "generates over $125 million in run-rate cost synergies," "Increases recurring EBITDA streams and drives overall cash flow ," and "facilitate(s) financial flexibility and deleveraging."  If Hilton weren't doing this deal, I would expect it to try to make up the loss by raising membership and reservation fees at the Club level, management fees it charges resorts, etc.  (I doubt that it can simply raise maintenance fees whenever it wants, given the statutory protections in most states for timeshare owners and the fact that except for its own management fees, it doesn't get the money that owners pay for maintenance at its resorts).  Although it didn't commit to never raising fees, I think Hilton is looking outside the box in an attempt to make up lost ground other than by charging us.  I look at myself in the mirror and wonder if I could or would do as well if I had just lost as much as I normally earn.

In conclusion I agree that the devil will be in the details, but I actually believe Hilton when it says it is trying to make the Club better for us.


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> The thing is, Marriott already tried that years ago with their Horizons brand and it failed miserably. Perhaps the market demographics are different now, but the younger millennials that they would be targeting with such a product is far different than the Gen X market that Marriott was targeting years ago. The market they would be trying to target are all about booking on AirBnB with limited commitments that timeshares would bring.



MVC tried building from the ground up, including trying to find new buyers.

HGVC has acquired a program already built and well entrenched with a large group of owners. 

Having said that, the original Sunterra went bankrupt, but that was due more to poor management than to not having customers. 

As to how HGVC will manage all of this, maybe look to Elara as an example. Part of that ownership remains Westgate owners. There are, of course, differences. But it maybe gives some idea of how separate ownership groups might be handled. Then there are the HGVC owners and the By Hilton owners. How HGVC handles those two groups might provide some insight.

No one should be jumping off a cliff right now. The better managed company (my informed opinion) will be in control. DRI had a habit of increasing pure management fees with no real return to owners. Out THE Club dues had gone from $135/year to well over $500/year in a few short years (4 or 5 years). HGVC has had increases, but NOTHING like what we saw with DRI. And that was just THE Club management fees. It didn’t include the ridiculous management fees built into owners MF’s. When we left DRI, our 2 bedroom Suites at Polo Towers MF’s were higher than our current MF for our standard 2 bedroom at HGVC LV Blv. Let that sink in for a minute. I was paying higher MF’s and club dues in 2015 that were higher than my current HGVC fees. 

If we’re into predicting, and all predictions I’ve ever made have been wrong, I predict there will be a “joiner” fee to access across brand lines. This will be a pure fee that’s waved if you buy additional ownership interests in either program. It will be easier to keep the programs separate but equal with a joiner fee and set conversion of one groups points to the other. They won’t have to attempt to adjust program rules, such as HGVC’s club booking window of 9 months compared to DRI’s no -ho e resort booking window of 10 months. If you have any interest in “dual” access, I’d recommend jumping early. MVC offered affiliation of weeks owners being able to convert their deeded week to DC points for $599 (or something close to that figure) and increased it significantly not to long afterwards. BUT, MVC was trying to enroll inventory in a new program. HGVC is dealing with a well established program...... so maybe not. Like I said, my track record at predicting is abysmal.


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## elaine

Putting owners 1st, Another thing hgvc did for owners was to offer free enrollment last year for sw fl affiliates. Maybe that way to encourage those deposits, as there’s such limited availability?
my concerns are:
1. Will all dri owners have equal access to hgvc inventory as hgvc owners? That’s a lot more people chasing reservations.
2. Although there are fine dri resorts-we really like greensprings in Williamsburg (but not quite on par with HGVC), imho also many lower quality resorts. I’ve stayed in a some on Rci trades. I doubt hgvc would want to dilute the hgvc brand. So maybe they’ll stay dri or be renamed something else-Hampton inn estates, Hilton flex-space, etc.


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## letsgobobby

ocdb8r said:


> I mentioned up-thread that I was not super excited.  However, there are some Diamond owned/managed resorts that look interesting to me and that I would consider exchanging into, including:
> 
> Sedona Summit
> Scottsdale Links
> Cabo Azul
> The Point and Poipu (Kauai)
> Lake Tahoe Vacation Resort
> Royal Palm Beach Villas (St. Maarten)
> Palazzo Catalani (Italian Countryside)
> Royal Oasis Club at Pueblo Quinta (Malaga, Spain)
> Any of the Embarc/Intrawest locations (would particularly like access to Zihuatanejo)
> I have not included any of the Balearic Island resorts, although some look nice, as it's not of particular interest to me and way overbuilt with timeshares (meaning there is plenty of choice regardless what system you are in).  Ditto for the Orlando area resorts.
> 
> I also noted upthread that the Crescent Resort South Beach Miami is interesting given it's right next door to the McAlpin...and we like staying in this area.
> 
> Otherwise, nothing caught my eye as interesting or at the level I would want to visit.


Agree with you, just need ten or so resorts in new locations that would make this worthwhile to me. Particularly Intrawest Zihua, a glorious place.

Why don't you have any of the Maui property on your list? Especially in the Ka'anapali area, that would be a big add.


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## ocdb8r

letsgobobby said:


> Agree with you, just need ten or so resorts in new locations that would make this worthwhile to me. Particularly Intrawest Zihua, a glorious place.
> 
> Why don't you have any of the Maui property on your list? Especially in the Ka'anapali area, that would be a big add.



The only Maui property owned/managed by DRI (i.e. not an affiliate) is KBC and to be honest, it's very dated and the beach in front isn't ideal (disappears almost completely during high tide).  There is some potential there with upgrades....the fact it is a high rise makes for a LOT of great views from the rooms and the pool is pretty decent given the age of the resort (although I wonder if it's undersized for the number of units on site).  I'm also spoiled with access to the Westin properties for Ka'anapali.

Totally agree that if I took my list of 8 resorts (plus the Embarc/Intrawest Resorts) alone and HGVC added these, I would not be complaining. I think it's hard to focus on these gems given there's another 75 less than interesting resorts being added.


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## Sandy VDH

I own HGVC and Wyndham.

I have stayed at 2 DRI - Grand Beach and Santa Fe.  I do know know for sure what level these resorts are in the DRI portfolio.   While these resorts and units were fine, I thought they were not cleaned well, and that their décor and resort amenities were just a little un-inspired.

How would I rate things:

Highest tier - HGVC/Wyndham Presidential
then - Upscale Wyndham Resorts - Emerald Grand/Bonnet Creek/Ocean Blvd.
then - average Wyndham Resorts - Cypress Palms/Destin Beach Club  AND I would stick the 2 DRI properties I stayed at HERE
then - lower Wyndham (older and smaller locations ( Fairfield Bay, Lake Lure) - likely lower DRI


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## dayooper

elaine said:


> Putting owners 1st, Another thing hgvc did for owners was to offer free enrollment last year for sw fl affiliates. Maybe that way to encourage those deposits, as there’s such limited availability?
> my concerns are:
> 1. Will all dri owners have equal access to hgvc inventory as hgvc owners? That’s a lot more people chasing reservations.
> 2. Although there are fine dri resorts-we really like greensprings on Williamsburg, imho also many lower quality resorts. I’ve stayed in a some on Rci trades. I doubt hgvc would want to dilute the hgvc brand. So maybe they’ll stay dri or be renamed something else-Hampton inn estates, Hilton flex-space, etc.



1. Who knows, but my guess is there will be some sort of barrier. In the communications given out yesterday, they had mentioned that some DRI resorts would be branded HGV while the majority would be HCV (a lower-tier resort). As @tpdgfmt mentions above (and I agree with), HGVC has treated us owners very well. They stopped most MF increases, even refunding monies paid, gave grace on points roll over (both free 2020 points roll over to 2021 and allowed saved 2019 points to roll over to 2021 as well). They also offered free club booking fees back in May (I'm using 3 of them this year). My guess is they will make a solution that will work for both groups.

2. I don't think they want to dilute the brand either. It would hurt their bottom line. They sell potential members on upscale resorts in upscale places. Many of the DRI resorts do not meet those criteria. As mentioned above, HGVC has already eluded to different branding for some, if not most of the DRI resorts. Could they try and screw all of us over? Absolutely! Their non-sales department history just doesn't sync with that, though.


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## tschwa2

Sandy VDH said:


> I own HGVC and Wyndham.
> 
> I have stayed at 2 DRI - Grand Beach and Santa Fe.  I do know know for sure what level these resorts are in the DRI portfolio.   While these resorts and units were fine, I thought they were not cleaned well, and that their décor and resort amenities were just a little un-inspired.


My experience with Diamond is they put exchangers in rooms that have not been renovated.  In the past they nickeled and dimed exchangers by charging for amenities that other systems include for everyone including exchangers (internet, mini golf, etc).  Now they charge a per day resort fee for those things but Hilton does too, difference may be that the hiltons are nice enough that it may overall be worth it while most diamonds are not worth the extra $10-30 per day resort fee through II or RCI.


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## Sandy VDH

tschwa2 said:


> Now they charge a per day resort fee for those things but Hilton does too, difference may be that the hiltons are nice enough that it may overall be worth it while most diamonds are not worth the extra $10-30 per day resort fee through II or RCI.



HGVC only charges those fees to exchangers.  No resort fee is paid if you book through HGVC directly  Does DRI only charge fees to exchangers and NOT to internal bookings?

Perhaps that is why as an exchanger I was less than impressed with DRI.  Does not inspire someone who who stays via an exchange to want to take a tour and purchase.  Their experience is already tainted.


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## tschwa2

Sandy VDH said:


> HGVC only charges those fees to exchangers.  No resort fee is paid if you book through HGVC directly  Does DRI only charge fees to exchangers and NOT to internal bookings?
> 
> Perhaps that is why as an exchanger I was less than impressed with DRI.  Does not inspire someone who who stays via an exchange to want to take a tour and purchase.  Their experience is already tainted.


yes exchangers only for diamond.


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## DazedandConfused

perhaps HGVC will buy Westgate next....


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## Sandy VDH

DazedandConfused said:


> perhaps HGVC will buy Westgate next....



Oh please NO, just NO.  Stay away from wastegate please.


----------



## dioxide45

Resort fees really burn my ribbon. I would probably have a negative view of any resort I exchange into and have to pay a resort fee. Is there a lot more HGVC availability in RCI now because of these fees? I avoid exchanging into any DRI resorts that we see simply because of this fee. They aren't charged that fee if they trade into the Sheraton or Marriott resorts we own.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Sandy VDH said:


> HGVC only charges those fees to exchangers.  No resort fee is paid if you book through HGVC directly  Does DRI only charge fees to exchangers and NOT to internal bookings?
> 
> Perhaps that is why as an exchanger I was less than impressed with DRI.  Does not inspire someone who who stays via an exchange to want to take a tour and purchase.  Their experience is already tainted.


Diamond tends to waive fees in tiers based on ownership as part of the sales program.  E.g., owners might not get charged an energy usage for the AC.  Silver members get a few freebies.  Gold members get more freebies, including free internet.  Platinum gets more benefits.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

ocdb8r said:


> The only Maui property owned/managed by DRI (i.e. not an affiliate) is KBC and to be honest, it's very dated and the beach in front isn't ideal (disappears almost completely during high tide).  There is some potential there with upgrades....the fact it is a high rise makes for a LOT of great views from the rooms and the pool is pretty decent given the age of the resort (although I wonder if it's undersized for the number of units on site).  I'm also spoiled with access to the Westin properties for Ka'anapali.
> 
> Totally agree that if I took my list of 8 resorts (plus the Embarc/Intrawest Resorts) alone and HGVC added these, I would not be complaining. I think it's hard to focus on these gems given there's another 75 less than interesting resorts being added.



With pent-up demand for Maui, HGVC's big Asian customer base who pay full price for Hawaii, and the oceanfront location, I wouldn't be surprised if gutting and renovating KBC to HGVC standard becomes a top priority.  I am a Westin TS owner next door, and I would gladly exchange our points for a week or a few days to our Westin fixed week if KBC were renovated.  There is a grocery store across the street and a beach next door at the Westin/Hono Koa so beach is not a problem. The walk to this beach is probably about the same distance from the back of the HGVC Kihei resort across the street.


----------



## dayooper

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Diamond tends to waive fees in tiers based on ownership as part of the sales program.  E.g., owners might not get charged an energy usage for the AC.  Silver members get a few freebies.  Gold members get more freebies, including free internet.  Platinum gets more benefits.



What does Diamond charge its owners when they stay? With those high MF's you would think not much.


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## tschwa2

dioxide45 said:


> Resort fees really burn my ribbon. I would probably have a negative view of any resort I exchange into and have to pay a resort fee. Is there a lot more HGVC availability in RCI now because of these fees? I avoid exchanging into any DRI resorts that we see simply because of this fee. They aren't charged that fee if they trade into the Sheraton or Marriott resorts we own.


I think it is a combination of 1 in 4 and resort fees but yes in places like Orlando and Vegas, Hiltons don't go as fast.  Hawaii and in season Myrtle Beach still fly off the shelves even with the fees.


----------



## GT75

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Diamond tends to waive fees in tiers based on ownership as part of the sales program. E.g., owners might not get charged an energy usage for the AC. Silver members get a few freebies. Gold members get more freebies, including free internet. Platinum gets more benefits.


Wow, that is ridiculous.     Do you also have a reservation fee?


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## T_R_Oglodyte

dayooper said:


> What does Diamond charge its owners when they stay? With those high MF's you would think not much.


It varies from resort to resort.  The HOA at each resort sets that resorts policies, which apply to all owners.  If you are not part of the Diamond Club, you pay the fee.  If you are part of the Diamond club, you don't reserve at the resort.  The Club is the entity that reserves the unit.  The Club then covers the resort charges, depending on what your status is in the Club.  

When we stay in Hawaii, we are gold members, so the fees we pay are the Hawaii taxes.  As gold members we don't pay the internet fee.  We also don't pay extra for A/C - I think the resort is policy is charge that fee only to non-owners.  

Other resorts might have other fees.  For example if a resort is inside some type of resort development that charges resort fees to occupants and residents, those will get passed on in some fashion determined by the HOA at the resort.  

Actually, the primary perks from higher tiers more often involve items such as the number of guest certificates allowed per year, rates provided when converting points to services, ability to reserve specific rooms, costs to do upgrades in unit size or location.  Things such as that - not quite so much as on-site charges.


----------



## elaine

(repost from the DRI forum on TUG)--here were some analysts' questions/comments:
- Focus / interest / excitement on adding more beach properties - Virginia Beach mentioned specifically in this regard
- The importance of maintaining the Hilton name / standard of excellence
- Analyst question touching on the topic of how HGVC might deal with Diamond's history of questionable sales tactics
- Analyst question basically asking how HGVC might deal with the fact that Diamond was known for high maintenance fees but not the same quality as HGVC


----------



## CalGalTraveler

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> It varies from resort to resort.  The HOA at each resort sets that resorts policies, which apply to all owners.  If you are not part of the Diamond Club, you pay the fee.  If you are part of the Diamond club, you don't reserve at the resort.  The Club is the entity that reserves the unit.  The Club then covers the resort charges, depending on what your status is in the Club.
> 
> When we stay in Hawaii, we are gold members, so the fees we pay are the Hawaii taxes.  As gold members we don't pay the internet fee.  We also don't pay extra for A/C - I think the resort is policy is charge that fee only to non-owners.
> 
> Other resorts might have other fees.  For example if a resort is inside some type of resort development that charges resort fees to occupants and residents, those will get passed on in some fashion determined by the HOA at the resort.
> 
> Actually, the primary perks from higher tiers more often involve items such as the number of guest certificates allowed per year, rates provided when converting points to services, ability to reserve specific rooms, costs to do upgrades in unit size or location.  Things such as that - not quite so much as on-site charges.



This sounds really complicated. An AC and Internet fee? Argggh If the MF were low I could understand but this seems to be a money grab.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

CalGalTraveler said:


> This sounds really complicated. An AC and Internet fee? Argggh If the MF were low I could understand but this seems to be a money grab.


When you consider the astronomic electricity rates in Hawaii, I have little problem with imposing an A/C fee.  Let those who want it pay for it.  IMHO, the resort should apply it to everyone, and reduce the annual fees accordingly.

The internet fee has been matter of some discussion, with quite a few people thinking that is should be provided to everyone free of charge.  So far the HOA has elected to not include it in the annual dues.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> When you consider the astronomic electricity rates in Hawaii, I have little problem with imposing an A/C fee.  Let those who want it pay for it.  IMHO, the resort should apply it to everyone, and reduce the annual fees accordingly.
> 
> The internet fee has been matter of some discussion, with quite a few people thinking that is should be provided to everyone free of charge.  So far the HOA has elected to not include it in the annual dues.




What are the MF in Hawaii for Diamond? We own Westin ($2500 - 2700) no fees.  Hilton Hawaiian Village in Waikiki is about $1800 and no AC or Internet fees.


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## DannyTS

I used to own HGVC but I sold it and bought RCI points. It suits us better in terms of value and we already pay a good amount to Vistana in MF. This takeover concerns me though. Potentially this can be a positive for RCI if they  bring back Embarc but I feel the odds are skewed towards DRI/HGVC using even more their internal trading system, especially since DRI was going that way anyways. Why would they feed the competition, Marriott or Wyndham, when they may benefit more to from keeping  a bigger piece of the pie for themselves? If RCI loses the HGVC inventory (even partially) it would be a huge blow especially since the fewer remaining nice resorts will be even harder to get.


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## ocdb8r

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> When you consider the astronomic electricity rates in Hawaii, I have little problem with imposing an A/C fee.  Let those who want it pay for it.  IMHO, the resort should apply it to everyone, and reduce the annual fees accordingly.



The problem is that for high humidity climates, this is a BAD idea.  Many resorts have found that keeping the A/C always running saves more than the cost in upkeep and mold abatement.  the Westin St. John recent switched to a system where you cannot completely turn "off" the A/C for this reason.


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## Nocdavis

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I don't see that as targeting the AirBnB/VRBO crowd.  That community is not a viable market for timeshares of any type. My kids are in that crowd. They love our timeshares, but they have less than zero interest in ever owning one themselves because AirBnB/VRBO fit their lives much better.  (Actually, had those platforms existed in 1999 I don't think we would have got involved with timeshares ourselves.)
> 
> Where I think this might position is to the people who are motivated on the sales floor to consider a timeshare, but won't bite on the main product due to price.  This could fit into that downsell market.
> 
> But the main place this would work is in the sales room at the "Hampton Vacation Club" resorts themselves.  That's going to be a different crowd than the people at the HGV resorts. It's also the same sales program that Diamond has been running at those resorts anyway, with decent success.
> 
> In fact Diamond itself has been using this two tier strategy for quite a few years.  The Hawaii collection was created and is marketed to prospects as the upscale collection, and is offered at a higher price point.



That's fair - and we used the snot out of AirBNB and VRBO but it's more expensive for us.....I get 3 weeks out of my points for an average price per night of $160ish.  When I wanted to go, mostly high seasons, we could rarely get what we were looking for under $250 through AirBNB and VRBO.  Also quality varies greatly.  I see your point and it's valid but I still think there is a place for TS.  Retail not so much....resale....absolutely.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

ocdb8r said:


> The problem is that for high humidity climates, this is a BAD idea.  Many resorts have found that keeping the A/C always running saves more than the cost in upkeep and mold abatement.  the Westin St. John recent switched to a system where you cannot completely turn "off" the A/C for this reason.


Depends on the architecture and construction.  Building have existed for years in Hawaii without A/C.  There are lots of resorts in Hawaii that do not have A/C.

Hawaii is also not as humid as the Caribbean.  Most of the time the trade winds are blowing from the northeast and the weather is quite pleasant.  The leeward sides of the island, such as Poipu, are actually desert climates, complete with cactus.  Average annual precipitation in Poipu is ~ 25-30 cm.


----------



## dsmrp

Wow, I only saw this thread last night. I'm hopeful there will be more resorts to internal exchange into, and price for that option will be minimal for HGVC owners. I only own Hawaii affiliate, with higher MF, so I'm not inclined to use the pts for other places, except perhaps internationally in Europe etc...

We bought our Bay club HGVC affiliate and Hyatt units to primarily use. Have 2 Vistana which are traders. So only "half worried" LOL of what's to come.

Interesting times ahead with more consolidation of multi resort TS systems.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> I heard that even the resorts they own, they don't own all the units in the resort.  Therefore, even though there are 95 resorts in the Diamond Resort System, there are somewhat less units owned.
> 
> AVAILABILITY to reserve what a member doesn't own to me is the key issue in all of this.
> 
> The quality standard and the number of points assigned to the Diamond Resorts is critical.  The Diamond Properties are substandard compared to HGVC resorts then those resorts shouldn't be part of the HGVC exchange system until they are upgraded.   The ones that are HGVC quality or close enough in quality that they can be readily upgraded could be assigned HGVC points to be used in the HGVC reservation system.  Depending on how many members and the number of points that each of those new members have the availabilty at some of the HGVC could become very tight.



This is true at a few locations. More what you will see is two collections sharing units at the same resort.....such as both the Hawaii Collection and the US Collection owning units in the same resort. The only resort I can think of where Diamond owns units but doesn't own (manage) the resort is the London Bridge Resort but there may be another one or two.

My worries are that HGVC will enforce their rules of business on Diamond owners or worse, require a Diamond Platinum owner to purchase HGVC points to be included in the HGVC Club. I'm sorry, but in many ways, Diamond does things better than HGVC (no charge for internal reservations, can make a reservation from 2 to 84 days in length, no 30 day window to make reservations of than 7 night stays, no home resort to worry about (the whole US Collection with 55 resorts is my home resort), no paying to save points to the next year, etc....). As a Platinum owner with Diamond (50,000 points) there is no way I would ever go back to paying for reservations again and I would lose my ability to book a weekend (HGVC requires 3 nights minimum) as I often due because I still work. Those were the main reasons I converted my fixed and floating weeks 14 years ago to Diamond. Of course, if we still had Stephen Cloobeck in charge we wouldn't be in this mess we are in today.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Grammarhero said:


> So am I a HGVC owner now?  I bought my DRI TS for $1.  I am hoping that HGVC has a better deedback program.



Yes, Transitions does suck at $1,000 per contract to deedback. From what I've been reading HGVC doesn't have a formal deedback program but units can be deeded back. HGVC seems more interested in helping you resale your unit than taking it back.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

terces said:


> My guess is that there is no free lunch in life, and in particular in the time share world.  HGVC will want a pound of flesh somewhere along the line for access to any additional resorts from the DRI collection.  I had to come to peace with the offerings that HGVC has to date.  Any access to Kannapali or other top end DRI resorts would be a bonus, but I am not holding my breath.



As a long time Diamond owner, I truly couldn't care less about ever having the ability to exchange into a HGVC property. I care more about keeping the Diamond rules for exchanges in place for Diamond members.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

tpdgfmt said:


> In conclusion I agree that the devil will be in the details, but I actually believe Hilton when it says it is trying to make the Club better for us.



My greatest fear is does this "us" include current Diamond owners.


----------



## ocdb8r

Fried_shrimp said:


> As a long time Diamond owner, I truly couldn't care less about ever having the ability to exchange into a HGVC property. I care more about keeping the Diamond rules for exchanges in place for Diamond members.



Meaning you just want to be sure you maintain internal access to DRI resorts or is there something special about Diamond rules for exchanges that is unique/advantageous?


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Sandy VDH said:


> HGVC only charges those fees to exchangers.  No resort fee is paid if you book through HGVC directly  Does DRI only charge fees to exchangers and NOT to internal bookings?
> 
> Perhaps that is why as an exchanger I was less than impressed with DRI.  Does not inspire someone who who stays via an exchange to want to take a tour and purchase.  Their experience is already tainted.



Anyone checking in on a Diamond reservation to a Diamond managed property does not pay daily usage fees. Anyone checking into a Diamond resort with a reservation from anyone else (RCI/II/Booking.com/etc....) pays the fees, even if they are a Diamond owner (such as a Diamond owner booking a Diamond resort via II).


----------



## Fried_shrimp

ocdb8r said:


> Meaning you just want to be sure you maintain internal access to DRI resorts or is there something special about Diamond rules for exchanges that is unique/advantageous?



With Diamond, you don't pay to exchange internally in the network. You can book a reservation as short as 2 nights (great for a weekend getaway). You don't pay to save points to the next year. Things like that. And actually there are several Diamond resorts that I love visiting year after year. Bent Creek (Gatlinburg), The Cove (Ormond Beach, FL), and Powhatan Plantation (Williamsburg). My retirement plans that will start in 21 months were centered around these 3 resorts and it doesn't matter to me that they aren't as luxurious as an HGVC resort. They feel more like home away from home which is what I prefer along with the location. Not trying to be snotty or anything, I just don't really care about the spas, 18 swimming pools, cabana girls in bikinis, etc.... type of timesharing. As long as it's clean and comfortable without extra fees I'm happy as a clam.


----------



## escanoe

CalGalTraveler said:


> An AC and Internet fee? Argggh If the MF were low I could understand but this seems to be a money grab.



For those of us not enlightened, is AC short for air conditioning or does AC mean electricity (alternating current). If it is air conditioner is there like a fee to turn it on if you want it? New one on me.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

escanoe said:


> For those of us not enlightened, is AC short for air conditioning or does AC mean electricity (alternating current). If it is air conditioner is there like a fee to turn it on if you want it? New one on me.


Yes "AC" is air conditioning - also abbreviated as A/C.  In contrast, "DC" is a comic book company, but that only rarely occurs in connection with timesharing;  .

And yes, where there is a fee charged and you have a choice, you pay if you use.  Often it's a question of whether or not you want to use A/C.  If you say yes you pay a flat rate charge.


----------



## Talent312

I wonder if this will be accretive for HGVC shareholders?
In the S-T, I don't see how. It dilutes the value of HGVC shares.
Perhaps the cost is a defensive move to ward off would be suitors.
Would anyone still want HGVC now that its so burdened with this?
.


----------



## brp

Fried_shrimp said:


> With Diamond, you don't pay to exchange internally in the network. You can book a reservation as short as 2 nights (great for a weekend getaway). You don't pay to save points to the next year. Things like that.



HGVC is not quite as good in this regard. We also don't have fees to exchange internally although, except in some special cases, there are booking fees for any reservation, so maybe that could be considered an exchange fee. Our minimum is 3 nights (again, except in special cases), and we do have a saving fee. I can see why you would prefer the Diamond rules in this regard.

Cheers.


----------



## tschwa2

On the other hand I think club fees are much higher annually vs the annual membership fee for HGVC.
What would the club fees be for 10,000; 20,000 and 30,000 points vs the annual membership for 1, 2, or 3 owned weeks?


----------



## nuwermj

Talent312 said:


> I wonder if this will be accretive for HGVC shareholders?
> In the S-T, I don't see how. It dilutes the value of HGVC shares.
> Perhaps the cost is a defensive move to ward off would be suitors.
> Would anyone still want HGVC now that its so burdened with this?
> .



I'm wondering the same. HVC is buying $2.5 billion in debt. They say there's enough cash to pay it off quickly, but who is going to believe that?


----------



## youppi

The list of all resorts owned by DRI are probably all those resorts where you can rent from DRI https://www.diamondresortsandhotels.com/Resorts


----------



## youppi

tschwa2 said:


> On the other hand I think club fees are much higher annually vs the annual membership fee for HGVC.
> What would the club fees be for 10,000; 20,000 and 30,000 points vs the annual membership for 1, 2, or 3 owned weeks?


For the Club fee based on the number of points, just check the column "THE Club®" in the 2021 tab of https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...eK7b2lFwXV-U4W9W3hMcAiNbej8gAmOvP5YG/pubhtml#


----------



## escanoe

Talent312 said:


> I wonder if this will be accretive for HGVC shareholders?
> In the S-T, I don't see how. It dilutes the value of HGVC shares.
> Perhaps the cost is a defensive move to ward off would be suitors.
> Would anyone still want HGVC now that its so burdened with this?
> .


I saw yesterday where a law firm was on that right off the bat. Someone must have tipped them off.









						Hilton Merger Investigation: Halper Sadeh LLP Announces Investigation Into Whether the Merger of Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. Is Fair to Shareholders; Investors Are Encouraged to Contact the Firm – HGV
					

Halper Sadeh LLP, a global investor rights law firm, is investigating whether the merger of Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. (NYSE: HGV) and Diamond Resort



					www.businesswire.com
				




*Hilton Merger Investigation: Halper Sadeh LLP Announces Investigation Into Whether the Merger of Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. Is Fair to Shareholders; Investors Are Encouraged to Contact the Firm – HGV*


----------



## geist1223

We do not pay any fees to Book or stay at any DRI Owned/Managed Resort.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

escanoe said:


> I saw yesterday where a law firm was on that right off the bat. Someone must have tipped them off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hilton Merger Investigation: Halper Sadeh LLP Announces Investigation Into Whether the Merger of Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. Is Fair to Shareholders; Investors Are Encouraged to Contact the Firm – HGV
> 
> 
> Halper Sadeh LLP, a global investor rights law firm, is investigating whether the merger of Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. (NYSE: HGV) and Diamond Resort
> 
> 
> 
> www.businesswire.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Hilton Merger Investigation: Halper Sadeh LLP Announces Investigation Into Whether the Merger of Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. Is Fair to Shareholders; Investors Are Encouraged to Contact the Firm – HGV*


Looks as if they don't have any evidence of anything wrong.  The firm is just trolling for clients who might bring them information they can  use to build a case.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Looks as if they don't have any evidence of anything wrong.  The firm is just trolling for clients who might bring them information they can  use to build a case.



Sadly there are many law firms that just wait and sue anytime certain things happen..   probably nothing really there..


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Fried_shrimp said:


> Yes, Transitions does suck at $1,000 per contract to deedback. From what I've been reading HGVC doesn't have a formal deedback program but units can be deeded back. HGVC seems more interested in helping you resale your unit than taking it back.



HGV does indeed have a deedback program, but they don't promote or advertise it.  But if you contact them, its in place.  They have discussed it some of the past investor presentations.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

1Kflyerguy said:


> Sadly there are many law firms that just wait and sue anytime certain things happen..   probably nothing really there..


Yeah - deals like this are so complex and the compliance standards are so fuzzy that if you muck around enough you can find something that looks shady.  Then you bring the suit and try to make it sure it's less bother to pay you off  so you go away. 

When more people are graduating than there are jobs available, the excess lawyers have to find business somewhere.


----------



## pedro47

This maybe is a good deal for the whole timeshare industry.  Suppose Hilton could bring up all of  DRI resorts to their hotel standards; this could change how the ts image is viewed by the general public, banks  and the stock market. IMHO.

Hilton Grand Vacation would have timeshare resorts on all the world continents, plus the cruise industries and the Carribbean and Pacific Islands. .


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

pedro47 said:


> Hilton Grand Vacation would have timeshare resorts on all the world continents, plus the Carribbean and Pacific Islands.


I don't know to what extent you are counting on DRI for that statement, but the DRI only operates resorts in the US, Mexico, and Europe.  Dots on their map in other continents are not DRI resorts - they are simply affiliates with whom DRI swaps a little bit of inventory.


----------



## escanoe

I don't know that everyone wants timeshares up to HGVC standards. I like my HGVC ownership a lot, but I also like the value I can draw from my RCI points traders ... and I usually stay in things not up to HGVC luxury/maintenance standards.

What I think will benefit the industry is getting rid of or reforming the bad actors in selling practices and management. If Diamond was a big, bad actor ... reforming it may very well be good overall for the industry.



pedro47 said:


> This maybe is a good deal for the whole timeshare industry.  Suppose Hilton could bring up all of  DRI resorts to their hotel standards; this could change how the ts image is viewed by the general public, banks  and the stock market. IMHO.
> 
> Hilton Grand Vacation would have timeshare resorts on all the world continents, plus the cruise industries and the Carribbean and Pacific Islands. .


----------



## Fried_shrimp

brp said:


> HGVC is not quite as good in this regard. We also don't have fees to exchange internally although, except in some special cases, there are booking fees for any reservation, so maybe that could be considered an exchange fee. Our minimum is 3 nights (again, except in special cases), and we do have a saving fee. I can see why you would prefer the Diamond rules in this regard.
> 
> Cheers.



According to some info I found, there is a $59 exchange (reservation) fee to book a week anywhere outside of your home resort. For us in Diamond, in this aspect, everything in Diamond is considered a home resort. Only booking differences are in home collection you can book 13 months out (14 if Platinum) and out of home collection 10 months out (11 if Platinum).


----------



## Fried_shrimp

tschwa2 said:


> On the other hand I think club fees are much higher annually vs the annual membership fee for HGVC.
> What would the club fees be for 10,000; 20,000 and 30,000 points vs the annual membership for 1, 2, or 3 owned weeks?



I can tell you for my 50,000 points I paid $9,200 in maint fees. I get approximately 100 nights per year out of those 50,000 points which equates to about $92 a night, usually in a 2 bdrm unit.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

geist1223 said:


> We do not pay any fees to Book or stay at any DRI Owned/Managed Resort.



Nor do we pay any fees to book an affiliate resort either.


----------



## brp

Fried_shrimp said:


> According to some info I found, there is a $59 exchange (reservation) fee to book a week anywhere outside of your home resort.



Yup. That's the booking fee I mentioned, and a downside to HGVC relative to DRI.

Cheers.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Fried_shrimp said:


> According to some info I found, there is a $59 exchange (reservation) fee to book a week anywhere outside of your home resort. For us in Diamond, in this aspect, everything in Diamond is considered a home resort. Only booking differences are in home collection you can book 13 months out (14 if Platinum) and out of home collection 10 months out (11 if Platinum).


Correct - though I look at it a bit differently.  

We pay an annual Club membership fee.  When we joined the Club, part of the consideration was that we could then book anywhere in the Club without paying a reservation. Without being in the Club, we would have to pay some company an exchange fee to do the same thing. Then there was the issue that if we tried to to reserve through an exchange, we were depending on the exchange company receiving a deposit we could work with, and with being high enough in the pecking order at the exchange company to be offered that exchange. 

Whereas if we were in the Club, we could call up the inventory, see what was available, and book it directly.  Much simpler and much easier for longer-range planning.  The Club also included (until this  year) Gold membership in II.  So if we wanted to go outside the Club, we could do so, paying only the II exchange fee.  Also, the way it worked, being a Diamond member gave us access to almost all of the II inventory without worrying about trade power.

The question remaining was how well the DRI resort network (excluding the affiliates) aligned with our travel interests.  Which was pretty good.  So it was clear to us that the annual cost of being in the Club was reasonable as compared with our experiences and history working through exchange companies. 

We have been pleased with how that aspect of our membership has worked out for us.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

youppi said:


> For the Club fee based on the number of points, just check the column "THE Club®" in the 2021 tab of https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...eK7b2lFwXV-U4W9W3hMcAiNbej8gAmOvP5YG/pubhtml#
> 
> View attachment 33329


 
This is helpful but we need translation. For Diamond, what would one week in a  2 BDRM Ocean view in Hawaii cost per year?


----------



## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> Nor do we pay any fees to book an affiliate resort either.



Can you get platinum status as a resale owner or did you have purchase from Diamond directly?

I hope you get to keep your status and booking privileges.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Fried_shrimp said:


> Nor do we pay any fees to book an affiliate resort either.


That's true, but you also need to consider what you are paying in points to book at that affiliate. 

We are members in Raintree Vacation Club, which is also a DRI affiliate.  So I can see what it costs me in Raintree to book at one of their resorts (say Club Regina Puerto Vallarta) vs. making the same booking using DRI points.  

Converting the DRI and Raintree points required to $ based on maintenance fees - I would pay more for a one-bedroom unit booking it through DRI than I would pay for a 2-bedroom unit for the same period booking through my Raintree account. 

Just for fun one time, I used a similar comparison to compare what it would cost me to stay at a Great Wolf Lodge using DRI points as compared with just booking it as an ordinary guest. It was significantly more expensive to burn my DRI points as Great Wolf than to just book directly with Great Wolf. 

So when I've mucked around, I've concluded that the affiliate resorts don't really offer value.  As I've posted elsewhere, the primary reason they exist is so that DRI can put more dots on the map. The only time I would seriously consider staying at an affiliate resort is if I had points that were going to expire at the end of the year and I couldn't roll them over, so I was faced with salvaging whatever value I could before they became worthless.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

CalGalTraveler said:


> This is helpful but we need translation. For Diamond, what would one week in a  2 BDRM Ocean view in Hawaii cost per year?


I assume you want $$.  

That's not a straightforward question, because ownership situations can vary. But here is one simple and straightforward option.  

We own a deeded week at the Point at Poipu.  This is not part of DRI's Hawaii trust (we own some of that as well).  That deed allows reservation of any 2-bedroom unit at Point at Poipu for one week.  We use it to book ocean front units, the highest level of unit (better than ocean view).  For 2021 our fees for that deed are $1812.93, which includes owners association and vacation ownership association operating fees and expenses., owners association reserve account contributions, Hawaii general excise tax, and Hawaii real property tax for our deed. The numbers will be somewhat different for the same unit if I reckon based on what it would cost us for the same unit using our Hawaii trust interest.  

Still considerably cheaper than what a comparable ocean front unit would cost at similar ocean front units in Poipu at owner rental sites such as VRBO.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I assume you want $$.
> 
> That's not a straightforward question, because ownership situations can vary. But here is one simple and straightforward option.
> 
> We own a deeded week at the Point at Poipu.  This is not part of DRI's Hawaii trust (we own some of that as well).  That deed allows reservation of any 2-bedroom unit at Point at Poipu for one week.  We use it to book ocean front units, the highest level of unit (better than ocean view).  For 2021 our fees for that deed are $1812.93, which includes owners association and vacation ownership association operating fees and expenses., owners association reserve account contributions, Hawaii general excise tax, and Hawaii real property tax for our deed. The numbers will be somewhat different for the same unit if I reckon based on what it would cost us for the same unit using our Hawaii trust interest.
> 
> Still considerably cheaper than what a comparable ocean front unit would cost at similar ocean front units in Poipu at owner rental sites such as VRBO.



Thanks. So you must pay for AC and internet on top of $1812.00?


----------



## dioxide45

The big question I have is, does the Internet and AC fees go back to the HOA or do they go into the resort managers coffers?


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks. So you must pay for AC and internet on top of $1812.00?


No.  As an owner I don't have to pay for A/C and as a Gold Club member I don't pay for internet.  

We do have to pay the Hawaii transient occupancy tax at checkout - everyone who stays on the island as a visitor pays that.  All of the Hawaii islands have been vigilant in cracking down on AirBnb and VRBO hosts who do not have a license.  They say it is to protect neighborhoods, but IMHO it's at least equally about collecting the tax.  Also, groups such as hotels, timeshares, and registered vacation rental companies have pressured local governments on this issue.


----------



## letsgobobby

Unless the quality is comparable, comparing prices is meaningless.

I'm in a wait and see mode myself. I own HGVC for my home week in Oahu and a few extra points which I don't have a ton of investment in. I don't anticipate this having a big impact on me anytime soon.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

letsgobobby said:


> Unless the quality is comparable, comparing prices is meaningless.


I think that's silly. In our lives we make comparisons all the time between price and quality.  If you go into the meat department in a grocery store and a pound of ground beef was the same price as a 16 ox. angus ribeye, would you say that the price comparison is meaningless because the qualities are not comparable?

If you are making travel arrangements, and you decide that the added cost of a first class ticket is worth the price difference for a coach ticket, you've made a comparison between price and quality.  Same thing if you decide that the difference in fare for first class isn't worth the price difference.  Same thing when you're car shopping.  Same thing when you decide whether or not TUG membership is worth the $15 price. 

We make that decision when we decide to acquire one timeshare vs. another.  Or when we are looking for a timeshare, and we are presented with options, we decide that some of the offerings are worth the exchange fee, but others are not. 

Point being, we all make comparisons between price and quality continually in our lives.  I don't believe you are an exception.  

*************

Returning to Diamond  - The Grand Hyatt is almost next door to Point at Poipu.  Grand Hyatt is a classy place.  I could stay there in an ocean view, 500 sq ft hotel room with 2 queen beds for one week in our travel period for $5700.  But wait, we have people traveling with us - DD, SIL, DG - they would need a room for themselves.  So make that $11,400. 

Or we can stay at Poipu ~100 yards away, in a 2-bedroom ocean front unit ~1300 sf, with living room and fully equipped kitchen. 

Now our condo won't be tricked out like that Hyatt room - no marble in the bathroom. Shower fixtures not as high end.  Beds might not be as plush. No daily maid service. Towels not as thick.  Plush robes not provided in each closet. Resort doesn't have room service, spa services (but you pay for those anyway).  The resort doesn't front directly onto a sandy beach.

But at Poipu we can live together as a 3-generation extended family for a week, cooking meals together, raiding the refrigerator when we want to.  No obligation to try to coordinate people to get down to a restaurant at about the same time for meal.  

If I had to choose between Point at Poipu and 2 rooms at Grand Hyatt for a week for the same $11,400 price, I would take Point at Poipu.  But Poipu only costs me $2000 (including occupancy tax).

So there is a definite price comparison in play, even though the qualties are really not at all comparable.


----------



## letsgobobby

Exactly. So all the posts about DRI possibly being cheaper do not help me at all, because I do not have a way to compare their quality.

I'm just gonna wait and see.


----------



## dougp26364

So if we’re comparing prices, expenses and clubs......

DRI’S THE Club management fee’s, a pure management fee was something like $545 the last year we were owners (2015). The more we owned, the higher the fee went.

With MVC (I know, it’s not HGVC so who cares), we own two 3 bedroom, one 2 bedroom plus 4250 trust points. The management fee to participate in their points program is currently $280. Single night reservations at 13 months, no exchange fees, no lock off fees, and no weeks exchange fees when using II and exchanging between MVC resorts. Polo Towers MF’s were equal to MVC’s Grand Chateau’s MF but, PT’s was putting only $100 towards cash reserves while GC was putting $400 towards cash reserves. 

HGVC’s dues are, I believe $195 regardless of how many weeks you own. Members pay an ala carte fee structure so, if you use it, you pay for it. If you don’t, there’s nothing extra to pay. Their membership fee is mandatory. If memory serves me, as a deeded week owner with DRI, I could opt out of THE Club and not have to pay their membership fee. When we left DRI and deeded back our PoloTowers deeds, the MF’s were somewhere between $1,200 and $1,500. At that same time (2015) our HGVC MF’s at HGVC LV Blv was still under $1,000, and that included HGVC’s membership fee. There is no comparison between Polo Towers quality, both in resorts and units, and HGVC LV Blv. 

The comparison led us to get rid of DRI while keeping HGVC and expanding our MVC ownership.

DRI had some advantages. Considerably more locations than HGVC and an easier to use internal exchange program. I find HGVC’s program somewhat restrictive. Having to wait 9 months is inconvenient for us. I preferred DRI’s 10 month window. Booking Hawaii with HGVC can be challenging to say the least. Booking deluxe units at DRI’s KBC was very easy. At the time I prefers that DRI exchange with II and not RCI (although that’s apparently changing now). In short, DRI had the better internal exchange program with great locations, but that price tag was horrible. DRI’s quality, while better than average, was still beneath HGVC’s quality. 

Our reasons for leaving DRI and keeping HGVC and MVC was purely financial. I loved the program, it was just to expensive considering the quality and we’re we live. We live in the Midwest. If we had lived on the west coast and if we could fly affordably to Hawaii, we very well may have kept DRI and dumped HGVC. As it is, Hawaii is a good 12 to 18 hours of flying with a price tag of $1,200 to fly coach and $3,600 to fly first class. Since we used DRI primarily for Branson and Las Vegas with occasional trips to other drive to locations (Santa Fe, Colorado) or the less expensive flight to Phoenix, DRI just didn’t make sense for us at their price point. HGVC and MVC had us covered for less money and better quality.

So, if we’re going to have a wish list of what we’d like with this acquisition, I want to see HGVC’s management fee structure combined with DRI’s more flexible booking engine. Will that happen? Probably not. But I also don’t anticipate that HGVC will adopt DRI’s horrendous management fee structure. I’ll be happy if they keep both programs reasonably separate with the ability to book across brand lines so long as the cost is reasonable. MVC had an original “joiner fee” around $695 for deeded week owners participation i. The DC points program. I’d be content with something similar out of HGVC with a decent points overlay program (1 HGVC point = x number of DRI points). 

I’m not nearly as anxious with HGVC’s management in charge as I would have been with DRI’s management team. The escalation in management/MF’s chased us from DRI several years ago. If DRI had been the management team in charge, I wouldn’t jump off a bridge....... yet, but I’d be looking at exit options just in case.


----------



## GT75

I agree with @dougp26364 assessment.   In fact, I added the links of the previous threads on this merger from last year into the first post.   I know that I was very concerned at that time.    I also don't think that HGV and DRI can be merged into 1 system.   In fact, right now HGV has two systems, HGVC & bHC and DRI has several itself.   Honestly, right now I am happy with the resorts that we are going to each year in HGVC.    So, I really don't need anything to change.      I wouldn't mind adding a little variety to my yearly travel plans but I don't want changes affecting my base ownership.  



dougp26364 said:


> HGVC’s dues are, I believe $195 regardless of how many weeks you own.


$186 for 2021



dougp26364 said:


> Booking Hawaii with HGVC can be challenging to say the least.


This isn't completely true.    The BI is very easy to book.     The challenge, IMO, is booking Lagoon Tower (because of cheap points) on Oahu can be challenging.   The other resorts on Oahu are much easier.


----------



## Magus

HGV in Hawaii I have not noticed having issues finding availability. Finding availability for the exact size, resort/island and dates you want if you are very specific may be an issue from time to time, but if you are flexible there is nearly always availability from what I've seen (and also just looking at June and early December right now for availability as two random months I picked). Probably depends on the size of family/friends going I'd imagine. We're usually fairly flexible on dates, sizes (can always book 2-3 studios/1 bedrooms if no 2-3 BD available), etc.

HGV club dues are either $186 (normal) regardless of how many units you own OR if you own the BHC ones you can pay $313 and pay no club booking fees at all, which for me is a no brainer since I rarely use home week (which has no fee), have a lot of points and frequently gift nights to family/friends (and just pay the $59 guest certificate fee, I've already made 7 club reservations this year and probably 8+ more to go). My EOY District MF will basically be free with as many club bookings I'll be making most years since I now have a lot of points.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

dougp26364 said:


> So if we’re comparing prices, expenses and clubs......
> 
> DRI’S THE Club management fee’s, a pure management fee was something like $545 the last year we were owners (2015). The more we owned, the higher the fee went.
> 
> With MVC (I know, it’s not HGVC so who cares), we own two 3 bedroom, one 2 bedroom plus 4250 trust points. The management fee to participate in their points program is currently $280. Single night reservations at 13 months, no exchange fees, no lock off fees, and no weeks exchange fees when using II and exchanging between MVC resorts. Polo Towers MF’s were equal to MVC’s Grand Chateau’s MF but, PT’s was putting only $100 towards cash reserves while GC was putting $400 towards cash reserves.
> 
> HGVC’s dues are, I believe $195 regardless of how many weeks you own. Members pay an ala carte fee structure so, if you use it, you pay for it. If you don’t, there’s nothing extra to pay. Their membership fee is mandatory. If memory serves me, as a deeded week owner with DRI, I could opt out of THE Club and not have to pay their membership fee. When we left DRI and deeded back our PoloTowers deeds, the MF’s were somewhere between $1,200 and $1,500. At that same time (2015) our HGVC MF’s at HGVC LV Blv was still under $1,000, and that included HGVC’s membership fee. There is no comparison between Polo Towers quality, both in resorts and units, and HGVC LV Blv.
> 
> The comparison led us to get rid of DRI while keeping HGVC and expanding our MVC ownership.
> 
> DRI had some advantages. Considerably more locations than HGVC and an easier to use internal exchange program. I find HGVC’s program somewhat restrictive. Having to wait 9 months is inconvenient for us. I preferred DRI’s 10 month window. Booking Hawaii with HGVC can be challenging to say the least. Booking deluxe units at DRI’s KBC was very easy. At the time I prefers that DRI exchange with II and not RCI (although that’s apparently changing now). In short, DRI had the better internal exchange program with great locations, but that price tag was horrible. DRI’s quality, while better than average, was still beneath HGVC’s quality.
> 
> Our reasons for leaving DRI and keeping HGVC and MVC was purely financial. I loved the program, it was just to expensive considering the quality and we’re we live. We live in the Midwest. If we had lived on the west coast and if we could fly affordably to Hawaii, we very well may have kept DRI and dumped HGVC. As it is, Hawaii is a good 12 to 18 hours of flying with a price tag of $1,200 to fly coach and $3,600 to fly first class. Since we used DRI primarily for Branson and Las Vegas with occasional trips to other drive to locations (Santa Fe, Colorado) or the less expensive flight to Phoenix, DRI just didn’t make sense for us at their price point. HGVC and MVC had us covered for less money and better quality.
> 
> So, if we’re going to have a wish list of what we’d like with this acquisition, I want to see HGVC’s management fee structure combined with DRI’s more flexible booking engine. Will that happen? Probably not. But I also don’t anticipate that HGVC will adopt DRI’s horrendous management fee structure. I’ll be happy if they keep both programs reasonably separate with the ability to book across brand lines so long as the cost is reasonable. MVC had an original “joiner fee” around $695 for deeded week owners participation i. The DC points program. I’d be content with something similar out of HGVC with a decent points overlay program (1 HGVC point = x number of DRI points).
> 
> I’m not nearly as anxious with HGVC’s management in charge as I would have been with DRI’s management team. The escalation in management/MF’s chased us from DRI several years ago. If DRI had been the management team in charge, I wouldn’t jump off a bridge....... yet, but I’d be looking at exit options just in case.


Great input.


----------



## escanoe

dougp26364 said:


> I’ll be happy if they keep both programs reasonably separate with the ability to book across brand lines so long as the cost is reasonable.



I give @dougp26364 credit for the smartest post on this thread. I do not expect it, but I would also like to have the flexibility to use my HGVC points to affordably exchange into Diamond. 

I have my first exchange (RCI Points) into a Diamond resort coming up this June. It is to the the Beachwoods at Kitty Hawk NC for a long weekend after the kids finish school for the year. It is not a horrible exchange value, but comes with the $29.95 daily resort fee (on top of the short stay $65 cleaning fee for a 2BR). I get people complaining about the resort fee for HGVC trades on RCI, but in this case it involves a Silver Crown RCI resort with 3 & 1/2 circles on TripAdvisor. We don't mind paying extra this time because we want to get away from people (Outer Banks versus Virginia Beach) more during COVID and there is a novelty to trying the place.  Moving forward, I do not see many exchanges into Diamond for me unless it becomes a better value for our family to trade in through HGVC.

And while I complain about the fees, my June trip is still an affordable trip compared to paying for a hotel or resort there in cash, but there are certainly better trades to be made on RCI ... just not one I could execute for that exact area at that time.


----------



## dayooper

A question for @dougp26364 @T_R_Oglodyte and anybody else that might want to take a wild guess: How hard would it be to pull certain resorts out of the DRI Trust? If HGVC wanted to rebrand a few of the Diamond properties into HGVC resorts, could they just pull them out? I'm not familiar enough with a trust product to know if there are restrictions to what HGVC/Diamond can and can't do.


----------



## dioxide45

dayooper said:


> A question for @dougp26364 @T_R_Oglodyte and anybody else that might want to take a wild guess: How hard would it be to pull certain resorts out of the DRI Trust? If HGVC wanted to rebrand a few of the Diamond properties into HGVC resorts, could they just pull them out? I'm not familiar enough with a trust product to know if there are restrictions to what HGVC/Diamond can and can't do.


It could be done, they just can't pull out more weeks than they have for points sold from the trust. So if the trust is almost sold out, then they really couldn't do it since moving the weeks out of the trust would cause a situation where there is more sold than the trust owns. I am not aware of a single timeshare trust that has removed inventory (Marriott hasn't done it in 11 years of their trust).

They may also run into some legal problems brought by people that bought into the trust knowing that there were certain weeks available to book and all of a sudden those were pulled out from under them. Imagine if they wanted to pull all the prime week 52s out after years of you being able to book them. I think it would cause a lot of problems and a reason why we really haven't seen it happen in other systems yet.


----------



## brp

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I think that's silly. In our lives we make comparisons all the time be
> 
> Returning to Diamond  - The Grand Hyatt is almost next door to Point at Poipu.  Grand Hyatt is a classy place.  I could stay there in an ocean view, 500 sq ft hotel room with 2 queen beds for one week in our travel period for $5700.  But wait, we have people traveling with us - DD, SIL, DG - they would need a room for themselves.  So make that $11,400.
> 
> Or we can stay at Poipu ~100 yards away, in a 2-bedroom ocean front unit ~1300 sf, with living room and fully equipped kitchen.



We stayed at that Grand Hyatt a few years back, and it was fabulous. And likely as pricey as you say. Not wanting to pay that, we used points 

With an option to stay in the same area, albeit in less fancy digs, at a reduced cost, we'd jump on that.

Cheers.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

dayooper said:


> A question for @dougp26364 @T_R_Oglodyte and anybody else that might want to take a wild guess: How hard would it be to pull certain resorts out of the DRI Trust? If HGVC wanted to rebrand a few of the Diamond properties into HGVC resorts, could they just pull them out? I'm not familiar enough with a trust product to know if there are restrictions to what HGVC/Diamond can and can't do.





dioxide45 said:


> It could be done, they just can't pull out more weeks than they have for points sold from the trust. So if the trust is almost sold out, then they really couldn't do it since moving the weeks out of the trust would cause a situation where there is more sold than the trust owns. I am not aware of a single timeshare trust that has removed inventory (Marriott hasn't done it in 11 years of their trust).
> 
> They may also run into some legal problems brought by people that bought into the trust knowing that there were certain weeks available to book and all of a sudden those were pulled out from under them. Imagine if they wanted to pull all the prime week 52s out after years of you being able to book them. I think it would cause a lot of problems and a reason why we really haven't seen it happen in other systems yet.


You would have to review the trust documents to be sure, but from what I understand the simple answer is "No".  Underlying it all is who owns the resort.  Let's say the resort has been deeded out with each deed representing one week of a  specific unit.  Those deeds are then held by some mixture of individuals and by one or more of the trusts.  Those ownerships define usage rights at the resort.  The resort could be rebranded to HGV, but that wouldn't affect the usage right. 

Let's say one of the trusts holds 95% of the deeded weeks at the resort, and the resort is rebranded as HGV.  Then, while it might branded HGV, the trust would still be assigned 95% of the available weeks at the resort for use by trust members. 

What could happen is that if the remaining 5% of the deeds is owned by DRI, those deeds would now be owned by HGV, which HGV could then use for its own program.  But the other 95% would remain with the old DRI trust.

The only way to get the resort out of the trust would be for the trust to sell its holdings, replacing what was sold with what something else.  That's where you would have to get into the weeds of the trust documents to know if that is even a possibility.  If the trust documents, for example, stipulate that the trust was created to hold ownership in a specific set of resorts, it might not be possible to swap one resort for another without changing the trust documents.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

dioxide45 said:


> The big question I have is, does the Internet and AC fees go back to the HOA or do they go into the resort managers coffers?


to the HOA.


----------



## tschwa2

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> to the HOA.


so does Diamond reimburse the HOA when they waive the fee for gold and platinum members?  and does the resort HOA get the fees when the resort charges a flat daily resort fee from exchangers and renters?


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## CalGalTraveler

The complaint about the res fees appear to be irrelevant. The total cost is what matters. From what I have seen thus far, the costs for HGVC in Hawaii for a 2bdrm run in the $1800 - $2000 range similar to Point at Poipu.  I believe the Big Island properties for HGVC maint are less - around $1400 - $1770 depending on the unit. The HGVC unit quality is higher for about the same total cost as DRI. 

For the points system. How many DRI points are needed to get a 2 bdrm in Hawaii and how much does that cost overall per week?

FWIW...I am delighted that we will be getting options in Kauai, Sedona, Cabo and Lake Tahoe. I hope they make it cost effective to trade otherwise we'll just live with what we've got. We have properties in both Vistana and HGVC so we are getting the best of both worlds.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

tschwa2 said:


> so does Diamond reimburse the HOA when they waive the fee for gold and platinum members?


I believe so, but I've never peeled back the covers to look.  





tschwa2 said:


> and does the resort HOA get the fees when the resort charges a flat daily resort fee from exchangers and renters?


 I'm pretty sure the answer is yes.  All money that comes in to the resort goes to the HOA (or it's functional equivalent). No revenue goes directly to Diamond.  Diamond's revenue is their management fee.


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## nuwermj

dayooper said:


> A question for @dougp26364 @T_R_Oglodyte and anybody else that might want to take a wild guess: How hard would it be to pull certain resorts out of the DRI Trust? If HGVC wanted to rebrand a few of the Diamond properties into HGVC resorts, could they just pull them out? I'm not familiar enough with a trust product to know if there are restrictions to HGVC/Diamond can and can't do.



Yes, in fact they have pulled resorts out of the European trust and sold them. Membership has declined precipitously in England, so five or six resorts have been sold.

The Cabo resort is held within its own trust. There are no other resorts in the "Latin America" trust. It could easily be rebrand and it is Diamond's highest quality resort; the only Diamond Resort that gets II's Primer status.

Most likely, I think, is the Embarc system. It already has a trust if Hilton wants to add a trust product to HGVC. Currently, Embarc is a standalone system; not integrated into the DRI Club. And the locates are all HGVC standards.

[edit] Oh ya, I forgot about The Modern. The hotel in Oahu. That one is not in any trust, and Diamond is planning to convert it to timeshare condos floor by floor.


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## nuwermj

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> You would have to review the trust documents to be sure, but from what I understand the simple answer is "No".  Underlying it all is who owns the resort.  Let's say the resort has been deeded out with each deed representing one week of a  specific unit.  Those deeds are then held by some mixture of individuals and by one or more of the trusts.  Those ownerships define usage rights at the resort.  The resort could be rebranded to HGV, but that wouldn't affect the usage right.
> 
> Let's say one of the trusts holds 95% of the deeded weeks at the resort, and the resort is rebranded as HGV.  Then, while it might branded HGV, the trust would still be assigned 95% of the available weeks at the resort for use by trust members.
> 
> What could happen is that if the remaining 5% of the deeds is owned by DRI, those deeds would now be owned by HGV, which HGV could then use for its own program.  But the other 95% would remain with the old DRI trust.
> 
> The only way to get the resort out of the trust would be for the trust to sell its holdings, replacing what was sold with what something else.  That's where you would have to get into the weeds of the trust documents to know if that is even a possibility.  If the trust documents, for example, stipulate that the trust was created to hold ownership in a specific set of resorts, it might not be possible to swap one resort for another without changing the trust documents.



Diamond regularly withdraws deeds from the trusts. The only legal requirement is the one-to-one correspondence. So if deeds are taken out of say the Hawaii trust, they would have to be replaced with use rights at another location.


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## CalGalTraveler

HGVC has a large Asian customer base who buy primarily in Hawaii. I have heard that such customers dislike trusts but prefer the deeded options with point similar to HGVC today.  It will be interesting to see if HGVC puts together a program to withdraw some HI units from the trusts to sell in this mode. They could wind down customers as in the UK with deedbacks, or transition, or replace with extra units on the Big Island.


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## nuwermj

tschwa2 said:


> so does Diamond reimburse the HOA when they waive the fee for gold and platinum members?  and does the resort HOA get the fees when the resort charges a flat daily resort fee from exchangers and renters?



The money does not show up directly in the hoa budget. It is charged by the resort's management company and is part of that company's revenue. The management company is a subsidy of Diamond Corporate. But Diamond subsidizes the HOAs, so the money gets back that way.


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## tpdgfmt

Fried_shrimp said:


> My greatest fear is does this "us" include current Diamond owners.


We will have to wait and see, but historically Hilton has been good to pre-existing owners of the resorts brought into the Club.  I am familiar with the SW Florida resorts which were part of Mariner.  Owners, whether pre-existing or new owners of weeks at those resorts have never been required to join the HGV Club.  The Mariner resorts typically were dual-affiliated with RCI and II, and as far as I know, they still maintain their dual affiliations.  Thus, an owner at any of those resorts can choose to join HGV Club, join RCI and/or II, join all three, or join none.  If an owner joins none, he or she pays only the maintenance fees set by the board at his or her resort and taxes imposed by the county in which it is located. 

I am not familiar with other Hilton takeovers.  However, this morning I decided to learn what happened when Hilton took over operation of Elara.  Elara was previously known as PH (Planet Hollywood) Towers and was owned and marketed by Westgate Resorts before it ran into financial trouble during the Great Recession.  Westgate sold PH Towers to Resort Finance America LLC, which was a unit of Centerbridge Capital Partners, and RFA appointed HGV to market and manage the project.  The companies put out a news release which said, "The 12,000-plus existing timeshare owners of PH Towers Westgate will continue with full ownership rights and benefits associated with their original purchase from Westgate Resorts," according to the Las Vegas Sun newspaper's online Vegas Inc. 

Perhaps there are some other TUG members who can provide information about other Hilton takeovers.  I think the opportunity for Hilton and Diamond in this combination is to retain revenues from sales of new projects, resales at resorts where they are appointed to be the resale agent, and management fees from resorts that the combined Hilton/Diamond manages, while cutting duplicative costs and expenses so that the overall enterprise is more profitable than the two separate enterprises were.  As far as raising maintenance fees at individual resorts, Hilton cannot do that without convincing the boards of directors at those individual resorts to do so, and if it does, the money from those maintenance fees (except for Hilton's own management fee paid by the resort) have to stay with the resort and be used for the benefit of the resort.  The boards of those resorts likely have contracts for resort management with Diamond which Hilton will now be performing in Diamond's place.  If the boards of those resorts had any brains when they entered into those contracts, the contracts probably eventually expire or could be terminated if Diamond's (and now Hilton's) management services are unsatisfactory.  Hilton isn't going to want that. 

One thing I haven't mentioned so far is the trust that Diamond uses for its club.  I have never seen it.  I would speculate that it says something like, "you place your week into the trust so that we (Diamond) are the owner of that week, but we promise to give you weeks, points, or some other measure of time in the resorts which are part of this trust."  What could Diamond, and now Hilton, do with this trust?  Dissolve it?  Why would they want to do that?  It sounds like the fees Diamond is charging its members who are members of this trust include fees that go to Diamond (and soon, Hilton).  Hilton isn't going to cut off its nose to spite its face.  I could see that Hilton might try to find a way for Diamond trust members to get access to HGVC resorts, and if that happens, HGVC members will probably get corresponding access to the resorts in Diamond's trust.  If that does happen, I would not anticipate HGVC members overwhelming the trust with reservations for Diamond resorts.  First, there are a lot more Diamond members than there are Hilton members.  More importantly, my own experience has been that Hilton gives up points in its club (which translate into some type of usage in one of its resorts, depending on size, time of year, etc) if an affiliate owner chooses to exchange his or her week for points.  The affiliate owner gets HGVC points, and the affiliate owner's week then shows up in HGVC's system as available to a Hilton owner for a certain amount of points.  There has never been any mass taking of anything away from owners in resorts "taken over" by Hilton.  But this is my own complete speculation, having never read any of Diamond's documents. 

Hilton's email to its members states in relevant part, "I want to assure you that your ownership rights and access to your Home Resort will not be changed or diluted. . . . Integrating the two companies is anticipated to be a multi-year, phased initiative, which means you may not hear about expanded offerings or benefits immediately."  Later, in the same email, Hilton states, "Together, we will provide the broadest range of offerings with a wider array of price points – *a new HGV sub-brand to complement our existing Hilton Grand Vacations and By Hilton Club brands*." (Emphasis added)   Once again, I believe Hilton's statements.  What is available to you and what is available to me is not changing any time soon, and when it does change, Hilton is looking to expand offerings, not take them away.  They are not looking to upset the apple cart.

I bought into HGVC 20 years ago this year.  At that time, the "news" in the industry was that Hilton, Marriott, Starwood, Disney, and several others were changing the timeshare game drastically by being fairer to customers.  Here's a typical statement from a newspaper article in 2008:  "Virtually all investments look bad these days, but some pretty big names want you to reconsider one of the most maligned of all: the timeshare.  High pressure tactics and deceptive costs have given timeshares a mixed reputation.  But companies including Disney, Marriott, Hyatt, Starwood and Hilton dominate the industry, offering new perks and better value."  I believe that Hilton has done this over the years.  I haven't seen anything about its combination with Diamond that indicates it is changing this philosophy.

The last thing I can think of is fees.  Hilton has not been considered to have outrageous fees.  Its fees are generally less than Marriott's or Disney's.  Diamond has been alleged to have high fees, although the comments from many of you Diamond owners is that Diamond's fees aren't that bad.  With a new HGV sub-brand, it seems likely that the fee structure that Diamond uses now isn't going to change right away.  Perhaps it will never change.  If and when it does change, Hilton's charges now are (1) resort maintenance fees and taxes, (2) an annual club fee, and (3) reservation fees (except for various levels of Elite owners, who avoid these fees by owning enough weeks/points) to qualify.  It sounds like Diamond builds some of these fees into one fee, so there aren't separate fees.  If Hilton changes the way that fees are charged, I doubt the overall amount of fees will increase, although some people's fees might be more and some people's fees less, depending on how they vacation.

The more I look at this, the more I can see good possibilities coming from it.  Hilton is telling us this, also.  Our inclination as customers is never to believe what a timeshare company says, and for good reason, but I think Hilton's actions over the years show that it does do, and wants to do, a good job for its resort owners.


----------



## ocdb8r

CalGalTraveler said:


> HGVC has a large Asian customer base who buy primarily in Hawaii. I have heard that such customers dislike trusts but prefer the deeded options with point similar to HGVC today.  It will be interesting to see if HGVC puts together a program to withdraw some HI units from the trusts to sell in this mode. They could wind down customers as in the UK with deedbacks, or transition, or replace with extra units on the Big Island.



I mentioned upthread that the announcement alludes to HGVC continuing to sell a deeded product. 

"HGV’s deeded product provides premium pricing, inventory sourcing flexibility, and the ability to pre-sell projects to support strong project-level cash flow, while giving buyers and owners the value of guaranteed availability."

To me this is good news as I think they will try to be accommodating to deeded weeks.  If the Modern is not yet declared into a Trust they could sell that as deeded weeks and Maui as deeded weeks.  That likely gives them enough deeded Hawaii inventory to sell to those wanting a deed (and if they come up with a decent program allowing access to trust weeks, they can still cross-sell "access" to the other trust resorts in Hawaii even if you buy a deed elsewhere).

Nothing obligates HGV to take any weeks out of the trust in order to rebrand a resort in the trust.  In fact, I am sure they will "re-brand" everything they purchased....some with a new brand and some may become HGV (all sitting in the exact same trusts they do now, and possibly with little to no changes from how the DRI system currently works).  Just because they slap the HGV name on something doesn't mean they MUST give existing HGV members access to it in any way.  Of course, I am sure they will develop some sort of "system" to permit interaction between the trusts, bHC and existing HGV resorts.


----------



## Sandy VDH

There is a annual membership option that bHC owners have that is a higher priced annual fee, but it includes all reservations fees for free.  I would gladly pay for this level if they would offer it.  Maybe they will to cover the concept of what DRI had.


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## CalGalTraveler

FYI...some interesting figures in this article:

_"Diamond had 92 properties across 18 countries and nearly 400,000 resort owners. They’re so large, in fact, that they eclipse Hilton Grand Vacation’s 62 locations across four countries with over 325,5000 owners, and even Marriott Vacation Club’s 70 locations and 400,000 owners."_

That means that HGV will have approx. 725,000 owners (some will be overlapping with two ownerships so a bit lower than this) vs. MVC's 400,000 owners. Wow. That give HGVC almost double MVC in terms of customers to approach for upsell and prevents HGVC from being viewed as a takeover target.  What's also interesting is that HGVC now can upsell DRI with ability to convert to Hilton hotel points. Something they couldn't do under Diamond. It will be interesting to see how they roll this out.









						Hilton Grand Vacations Acquiring Diamond Resorts! - Jeffsetter Travel
					

There's a big shakeup coming to the world of timeshares since Hilton Grand Vacations is acquiring Diamond Resorts International.




					www.jeffsetter.com


----------



## artringwald

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I assume you want $$.
> 
> That's not a straightforward question, because ownership situations can vary. But here is one simple and straightforward option.
> 
> We own a deeded week at the Point at Poipu.  This is not part of DRI's Hawaii trust (we own some of that as well).  That deed allows reservation of any 2-bedroom unit at Point at Poipu for one week.  We use it to book ocean front units, the highest level of unit (better than ocean view).  For 2021 our fees for that deed are $1812.93, which includes owners association and vacation ownership association operating fees and expenses., owners association reserve account contributions, Hawaii general excise tax, and Hawaii real property tax for our deed. The numbers will be somewhat different for the same unit if I reckon based on what it would cost us for the same unit using our Hawaii trust interest.
> 
> Still considerably cheaper than what a comparable ocean front unit would cost at similar ocean front units in Poipu at owner rental sites such as VRBO.


For us, we think $258.99/night for a very spacious, 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom oceanfront unit is a very good deal. The adults only hot tub, large pool with swimming lanes, and pool bar & grill with Mike, Karen, or Vada bartending make it an exceptional value.


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## CalGalTraveler

artringwald said:


> For us, we think $258.99/night for a very spacious, 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom oceanfront unit is a very good deal. The adults only hot tub, large pool with swimming lanes, and pool bar & grill with Mike, Karen, or Vada bartending make it an exceptional value.



That's a good price for oceanfront in Hawaii. What quality level is this resort? I am looking forward to additional HGVC options in Kauai. To compare, The Westins and Marriotts on Kaanapali run $2400 - $2800 for OF MF. Some of the Hiltons can be as low as $1000 if one trades from Vegas property into Waikiki or BI but you don't get first choice. If you own in HI, the MF's run in the $1500 - $1800+ range.


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## artringwald

CalGalTraveler said:


> That's a good price for oceanfront in Hawaii. What quality level is this resort? I am looking forward to additional HGVC options in Kauai. To compare, The Westins and Marriotts on Kaanapali run $2400 - $2800 for OF MF. Some of the Hiltons can be as low as $1000 if one trades from Vegas property into Waikiki or BI but you don't get first choice. If you own in HI, the MF's run in the $1500 - $1800+ range.


I wouldn't call the Point at Poipu deluxe, but I would call it casual comfort. They've been updating the rooms, and before the pandemic, they finally started updating the kitchens. Here's plenty of pictures (some from before the updates).









						The Point at Poipu - Art & Jo Ringwald
					

Our favorite pictures from several stays at The Point at Poipu




					artringwald.smugmug.com


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## ocdb8r

artringwald said:


> I wouldn't call the Point at Poipu deluxe, but I would call it casual comfort. They've been updating the rooms, and before the pandemic, they finally started updating the kitchens. Here's plenty of pictures (some from before the updates).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Point at Poipu - Art & Jo Ringwald
> 
> 
> Our favorite pictures from several stays at The Point at Poipu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> artringwald.smugmug.com



I think it would fit well in the HGVC Hawaii portfolio - I consider it a sort of Kohala Suites but right on the ocean.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

artringwald said:


> I wouldn't call the Point at Poipu deluxe, but I would call it casual comfort. They've been updating the rooms, and before the pandemic, they finally started updating the kitchens. Here's plenty of pictures (some from before the updates).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Point at Poipu - Art & Jo Ringwald
> 
> 
> Our favorite pictures from several stays at The Point at Poipu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> artringwald.smugmug.com


Nice pictures and quite representative. 

We regard Point at Poipu as a place to live. We bought there because it felt to us like a home, not a hotel.  It was a place we could almost see ourselves living in.  A place that we would come back to and where our adult kids might want to come as well, bringing their kids.  And we could all spend time together as a multi-generational family.  Glad to say that it has worked out exactly that way.


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## CalGalTraveler

Looks nice! Love the views. The buildings and grounds appear in much better shape than KBC. Aside from the hideous pink color at KBC, I thought the railings at KBC looked cheap (thin white all metal vs capped like this) and the grounds could use renovation in certain areas. With the exception of the white appliances, the furnishings at Poipu look similar to HGVC Lagoon.


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## brp

artringwald said:


> I wouldn't call the Point at Poipu deluxe, but I would call it casual comfort. They've been updating the rooms, and before the pandemic, they finally started updating the kitchens. Here's plenty of pictures (some from before the updates).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Point at Poipu - Art & Jo Ringwald
> 
> 
> Our favorite pictures from several stays at The Point at Poipu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> artringwald.smugmug.com



That looks quite nice. And one could always wander to the Hyatt and use some of their restaurants and such.

Cheers.


----------



## Zenichiro

Interesting article on the CEP mindset.









						Hilton Grand Vacations CEO on Diamond acquisition: it 'really sets us up for recovery'
					

Yahoo Finance’s Julie Hyman, Myles Udland, and Brian Sozzi speak with Hilton Grand Vacations CEO Mark Wang about the company's $1.4 billion Diamond Resorts Acquisition, and timeshare industry outlook.




					www.google.com


----------



## artringwald

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Nice pictures and quite representative.
> 
> We regard Point at Poipu as a place to live. We bought there because it felt to us like a home, not a hotel.  It was a place we could almost see ourselves living in.  A place that we would come back to and where our adult kids might want to come as well, bringing their kids.  And we could all spend time together as a multi-generational family.  Glad to say that it has worked out exactly that way.


Our feelings precisely! I believe they were originally planned to be condos, and it's part of the reason they're all at least 1100 sq ft. Unfortunately, construction wasn't complete when hurricane Iniki hit in 1992. The condo project collapsed and they were rezoned as timeshares.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Zenichiro said:


> Interesting article on the CEP mindset.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hilton Grand Vacations CEO on Diamond acquisition: it 'really sets us up for recovery'
> 
> 
> Yahoo Finance’s Julie Hyman, Myles Udland, and Brian Sozzi speak with Hilton Grand Vacations CEO Mark Wang about the company's $1.4 billion Diamond Resorts Acquisition, and timeshare industry outlook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com





> BRIAN SOZZI: Mark what are your plan-- are you going to rebrand Diamond Resorts? How do you think about the integration of the asset?
> 
> MARK WANG: Sure. No, great-- great question. That's where we can bring significant value. We have this iconic brand with Hilton Grand Vacations, and we're going to be rebranding the Diamond portfolio. It'll take a couple of years to get the rebranding completed.
> 
> But when you think about the power of putting the Hilton brand on and connecting it to the Hilton [? engine, ?] it will, number one, create a tremendous amount of credibility. It'll allow us to attract customers, higher-quality customers than Diamond was able to attract. And we think the performance of the combined entity is going to be very powerful.
> 
> JULIE HYMAN: And when you're talking about that acquisition, Diamond is a little bit more targeted sort of younger timeshare users. I think, you know, the sort of stereotypical idea of a timeshare buyer is on the older end of the spectrum. So is this an explicit effort to appeal to younger buyers? And is it-- is it going to be successful? How-- how well do you think you're going to do with that?
> 
> MARK WANG: Look, one of the benefits with Diamond and what we're planning to do is we're going to be-- _*we're launching a new brand called Hilton Vacation Club. And Hilton Vacation Club will be positioned just below Hilton Grand Vacation Club, which is an upper upscale brand. And Hilton Vacation Club will be an upscale brand. And the entry price points are significantly lower, about $20,000 lower to-- to enter the system.*_
> 
> And so our goal is to capture these customers in a earlier part of their life cycle. And-- and that's-- when you look at Diamond's success over the last couple of years, they have been driving a higher percentage of millennials than we have. And so we see this as an opportunity over the long term to-- to widen-- widen our ability to attract new customers and provide great vacation experiences.



Reinforces what I was speculating:



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> From this comment (highlights added):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to HGVC!
> 
> 
> Welcome back, Doug !  You and DRI were meant to be   DRI always seems to be coming back around to me like a cosmic pimple
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Item #6 suggests that some Diamond resorts will be rebranded as HGV resorts.  I would expect those to be the upper end DRI properties - probably most of the properties that are in the DRI Hawaii Collection since that Collection was intended to be for the higher end resorts.
> 
> Item #16 suggests that a new brand will be created with the DRI properties that don't get converted to HGV.  Presumably this would be a "downscale" brand from HGV.  This will give the sales teams something to pitch to people who might be finding HGV too rich for their blood. Wouldn't surprise me to see them rebranded as something like Hampton Vacation Club.
> 
> If these guesses are correct, I suspect they already have a good idea of which resorts they want to bring into HGV and the changes they intend to make before the rebranding.  Until those changes are made, they will keep them as Diamond resorts.  There's also a significant amount of legal and logistic work that needs to get done.  It's not going to be easy to sort out how a Diamond resort, with ownership interests held by individual owners and by the Diamond collections, can move over to HGV while preserving continuity in owner usage rights and privileges in both systems.
> 
> As for the remaining resorts - the "Hampton Vacation Club" brand level - I expect the first priority will be to identify resorts that HGV wants to carry the new brand, and which resorts they might want to get rid of. They probably have a pretty good idea of that already from the pre-acquisition due diligence, but it wouldn't suprise me if they spent a bit more observing the resort operations and the market positions before coming to final decisions. They also need to prepare upgrade plans for the resorts they want to keep, and then work up the capital spending plan for the upgrades The resorts they decide to keep will then go through a period of making whatever upgrades or changes are needed to meet whatever quality standards they want to have for the new brand.  Once that is complete, the rebranding will occur.  This process will likely extend over quite a few years. I would also expect maintenance fee increases, just as when Diamond acquired Sunterra and began making upgrades.
> 
> As for any resorts that they don't believe warrant upgrade to meet the standards of the new "Hampton Vacation Club" brand, HGV will then need to figure out how to dispose of those. They can't just drop the resort, because ownership is those resorts is held by one of the Diamond trusts, where it is mingled with all other resorts.  Inventory control also requires that the number and type of units or occupancy interests owned by the trust balance with the total usage rights of the trust owners.  HGV would not be able to simply jettison resorts because then there would be an imbalance between unit availability and trust ownership interests.  (The governing documents for the trusts require this balance - except apparently for the European collection.).  So if they get rid of a resort they simultaneously would have to add another resort to offset the loss of inventory.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

artringwald said:


> Our feelings precisely! I believe they were originally planned to be condos, and it's part of the reason they're all at least 1100 sq ft. Unfortunately, construction wasn't complete when hurricane Iniki hit in 1992. The condo project collapsed and they were rezoned as timeshares.


That matches my understanding.  I believe they also had to get a zoning waiver to make the property into timeshare.  That area of Poipu was zoned residential (only the Grand Hyatt was zoned resort).  After Iniki, the county was open to a zoning waiver to facilitate restoration of the property.  That's another reason why it has such a residential feel to it. 

In 1999 we originally bought  at the Marriott in Lihue.  Before we left the island we looked around some more and found Point at Poipu - at the time branded as Embassy Vacation Resort.  It appealed to us so much more than the resort atmosphere at the Marriott.


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## Sandy VDH

Mark Wang said, branding with be Hilton Club Vacations (rebranded Diamond), and Hilton Grand Club Vacations (existing HGVC plus select DRI locations).  If anyone was looking for naming info.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Sandy VDH said:


> Mark Wang said, branding with be Hilton Club Vacations (rebranded Diamond), and Hilton Grand Club Vacations (existing HGVC plus select DRI locations).  If anyone was looking for naming info.


I liked the part where he said HCV would be an "upscale brand".  Thue HGVC is "upper upscale".


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Sandy VDH said:


> Mark Wang said, branding with be Hilton Club Vacations (rebranded Diamond), and Hilton Grand Club Vacations (existing HGVC plus select DRI locations).  If anyone was looking for naming info.


Another interesting aspect in the interview is that within the industry Diamond is perceived as having a better handle on sales and marketing to millenials.  I would have never thought that.


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## geist1223

It will be interesting if Cabo Azul is rebranded HGCV. We just switched our DRI Membership from Hawaiian Collection to Cabo Azul. So we may end up in HGCV. We have no idea what that will mean.


----------



## dayooper

geist1223 said:


> It will be interesting if Cabo Azul is rebranded HGCV. We just switched our DRI Membership from Hawaiian Collection to Cabo Azul. So we may end up in HGCV. We have no idea what that will mean.



Yeah, I think that will be the interesting part. Will you get access to club bookings without an additional purchase or will you be “stuck” with just the Cabo Resort.


----------



## BingoBangoBongo

BRIAN SOZZI: Mark what are your plan-- are you going to rebrand Diamond Resorts? How do you think about the integration of the asset?

MARK WANG: Sure. No, great-- great question. That's where we can bring significant value. We have this iconic brand with Hilton Grand Vacations, and we're going to be rebranding the Diamond portfolio. It'll take a couple of years to get the rebranding completed.

But when you think about the power of putting the Hilton brand on and connecting it to the Hilton [? engine, ?] it will, number one, create a tremendous amount of credibility. *It'll allow us to attract customers, higher-quality customers than Diamond was able to attract*. And we think the performance of the combined entity is going to be very powerful.


Kind of a harsh way to talk about your recently acquired customer base.


----------



## dayooper

nuwermj said:


> Diamond regularly withdraws deeds from the trusts. The only legal requirement is the one-to-one correspondence. So if deeds are taken out of say the Hawaii trust, they would have to be replaced with use rights at another location.



I apologize for asking so many questions as I’m not familiar with the trust product. In your opinion, would taking one or two resorts out of one of Diamond‘s collections and combining the collections be a way to satisfy the requirement? I know this is just speculation and conjecture, but I’m trying to wrap my head around what Mark Wang was saying when he alluded to rebranding a few of The Diamond resorts into HGVC (not HVC).


----------



## escanoe

Zenichiro said:


> Interesting article on the CEP mindset.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hilton Grand Vacations CEO on Diamond acquisition: it 'really sets us up for recovery'
> 
> 
> Yahoo Finance’s Julie Hyman, Myles Udland, and Brian Sozzi speak with Hilton Grand Vacations CEO Mark Wang about the company's $1.4 billion Diamond Resorts Acquisition, and timeshare industry outlook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com



I Generally like HGVC management, but seems like a bit too much elitism from the CEO, "It'll allow us to attract customers, higher-quality customers than Diamond was able to attract."

Any of you Diamond owners thinking about the transition to HGV offended? Wonder how they talk about us resale buyers behind our back?


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

escanoe said:


> Wonder how they talk about us resale buyers behind our back?


They think we are the scum of the earth. When someone makes it to Tug, and heeds the advice to rescind, they see us as taking food out of their babies' mouths.


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## Jason245

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> They think we are the scum of the earth. When someone makes it to Tug, and heeds the advice to rescind, they see us as taking food out of their babies' mouths.



I don't think they view resale that poorly.  I would hazard to guess that about half of the people that make it to TUG have bought retail. And even if they rescind and buy resale, I would say that TUG members who buy resale are probably members who don't just stop paying MF.  So it is better for Resort MF and the management fees.


----------



## Eric B

Jason245 said:


> I don't think they view resale that poorly.  I would hazard to guess that about half of the people that make it to TUG have bought retail. And even if they rescind and buy resale, I would say that TUG members who buy resale are probably members who don't just stop paying MF.  So it is better for Resort MF and the management fees.



Probably true for the resort/HOA management side, but likely not true for the sales side....


----------



## Talent312

escanoe said:


> ... seems like a bit too much elitism from the CEO: "It'll allow us to attract customers, higher-quality customers than Diamond was able to attract."



I like being included in Mark Wang's upper, upscale class.
But now, Diamond's customers may get use our showers!
.


----------



## Jason245

Eric B said:


> Probably true for the resort/HOA management side, but likely not true for the sales side....


 The sales team might not be happy, but they only deal with the customer for 3 hours.... the management/HOA side deals with customers forever.  And honestly they are the ones that dictate your experience.   The thing that kills resorts is owners that don't pay their MF.... if owners are not paying, maintenance has to be delayed and fees have to go up to cover the missing funds and it just starts a downward spiral. 

Success of Timeshare resorts are very dependent on having owners that pay their MF every year timely, and my impression of TUG is that as a collective we are probably the best owners of resorts on the market, not because of our individual finances, but because we understand what we own, know the value, take advantage of that value, know the financial commitments that come with that value and are willing to make the payments on those commitments. 

As an owner of a resort or a system, I would wish that every other owner was a TUG member.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Jason245 said:


> I don't think they view resale that poorly.


They do on the sales floor. On the operations side, resale vs. "new" doesn't matter unless that distinction passes through and causes them to have to treat some owners differently from others.


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## Eric B

Jason245 said:


> The sales team might not be happy, but they only deal with the customer for 3 hours.... the management/HOA side deals with customers forever.  And honestly they are the ones that dictate your experience.   The thing that kills resorts is owners that don't pay their MF.... if owners are not paying, maintenance has to be delayed and fees have to go up to cover the missing funds and it just starts a downward spiral.
> 
> Success of Timeshare resorts are very dependent on having owners that pay their MF every year timely, and my impression of TUG is that as a collective we are probably the best owners of resorts on the market, not because of our individual finances, but because we understand what we own, know the value, take advantage of that value, know the financial commitments that come with that value and are willing to make the payments on those commitments.
> 
> As an owner of a resort or a system, I would wish that every other owner was a TUG member.



Completely agree.  IMHO, one of the major problems with TS sales is the lack of alignment of incentives between the sales staff and the HOAs.  With resort management typically outsourced so that the HOA responsible for collecting the MFs and setting the budgets to maintain the resorts is separate from the folks that earn a living by selling ownerships, we will always have that sort of tension.  Imagine a world where the sales staff had their salaries determined by continuing revenue from maintenance fees paid by their customers rather than by a commission on the sales price; I've got to think that the customers would be happier.


----------



## Magus

escanoe said:


> I Generally like HGVC management, but seems like a bit too much elitism from the CEO, "It'll allow us to attract customers, higher-quality customers than Diamond was able to attract."
> 
> Any of you Diamond owners thinking about the transition to HGV offended? Wonder how they talk about us resale buyers behind our back?



Hah! How do you think everyone in C-suite + Investment banker + Gov power jobs in NYC, DC, Chicago, LA/SF etc thinks about you behind your back? This is actually VERY mild. (And people wonder why Trump had a lot of support)

I'm sure the sales people absolutely hate re-sale, but I'm sure management/Corp realizes its a necessary evil. They can always exercise ROFR if they don't like resale. The more they exercise ROFR, the fewer resale owners there are!


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## Jason245

Eric B said:


> Completely agree.  IMHO, one of the major problems with TS sales is the lack of alignment of incentives between the sales staff and the HOAs.  With resort management typically outsourced so that the HOA responsible for collecting the MFs and setting the budgets to maintain the resorts is separate from the folks that earn a living by selling ownerships, we will always have that sort of tension.  Imagine a world where the sales staff had their salaries determined by continuing revenue from maintenance fees paid by their customers rather than by a commission on the sales price; I've got to think that the customers would be happier.



HGVC makes a nice management fee and also collects a few million in just membership fees, which is recurring money in the pocket with no effort on their part.... While the instant revenue of selling inventory and the huge markup makes it appealing, there is a reason why when you google the name of different timeshares/brands you get different feedback.  If someone makes it to TUG, they usually discover that certain brands (e.g. Westgate) are generally reviewed less favorable than others (Like say DVC, Mariott, HGVC or Wyndham).  

I think we can all agree that there is a huge disconnect in real value vs retail selling price on the sales side of timeshares, mostly driven by the inflated selling price due to the absence of a true free market.  Honestly, the only organization I know that is more focused on the service side than the sales side is DVC... everyone else is out for the big front end cash grab to some degree or other.... If we had a true free market on these things (similar to the housing market), and people were valuing and comparing based on experience, I think that it would weed out most of the people who buy timeshares but shouldn't, and allow the free market to weed out some of the resorts that really do not offer value for the experience/benefits.


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## Jason245

Magus said:


> Hah! How do you think everyone in C-suite + Investment banker + Gov power jobs in NYC, DC, Chicago, LA/SF etc thinks about you behind your back? This is actually VERY mild. (And people wonder why Trump had a lot of support)
> 
> I'm sure the sales people absolutely hate re-sale, but I'm sure management/Corp realizes its a necessary evil. They can always exercise ROFR if they don't like resale. The more they exercise ROFR, the fewer resale owners there are!


I guarantee you that DRI and HGVC management all view their customers with the same question "How much money can I get out of them?"


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## nuwermj

dayooper said:


> I apologize for asking so many questions as I’m not familiar with the trust product. In your opinion, would taking one or two resorts out of one of Diamond‘s collections and combining the collections be a way to satisfy the requirement? I know this is just speculation and conjecture, but I’m trying to wrap my head around what Mark Wang was saying when he alluded to rebranding a few of The Diamond resorts into HGVC (not HVC).



Thanks for the questions. They are not a problem. A "collection" in the Diamond system is an HOA, so I don't think they can be combined without the approval of some fraction of the owners. If Wang is thinking about the Embarc resorts, then my guess is that the whole trust would be affiliated with HGVC. The Modern in Hawaii could be easily integrated as it is not in any of the Diamond trusts. It could even be sold off as deeded weeks. If Wang wants to integrate locations already affiliated with the Diamond Club, then my guess it that the resorts would be shared; some inventory controlled by the Diamond Club and other weeks controlled by the HGVC. I don't image they would withdraw an entire Diamond resorts from one of the trusts and then sell it as deeded weeks. I hope this addresses your question.


----------



## dayooper

nuwermj said:


> Thanks for the questions. They are not a problem. A "collection" in the Diamond system is an HOA, so I don't think they can be combined without the approval of some fraction of the owners. If Wang is thinking about the Embarc resorts, then my guess is that the whole trust would be affiliated with HGVC. The Modern in Hawaii could be easily integrated as it is not in any of the Diamond trusts. It could even be sold off as deeded weeks. If Wang wants to integrate locations already affiliated with the Diamond Club, then my guess it that the resorts would be shared; some inventory controlled by the Diamond Club and other weeks controlled by the HGVC. I don't image they would withdraw an entire Diamond resorts from one of the trusts and then sell it as deeded weeks. I hope this addresses your question.



Yes! That helps tremendously! Thank You!


----------



## Magus

Jason245 said:


> I think we can all agree that there is a huge disconnect in real value vs retail selling price on the sales side of timeshares, mostly driven by the inflated selling price due to the absence of a true free market.



I actually very much disagree with this statement. I think there is a huge disconnect between *resale* value and the real value of timeshares, not retail and real value. Timeshares are complicated and no one (corporate/gov) is pushing re-sales nor educating potential buyers of resales and the various programs. When I explain how HGV works, most people can't believe how cheap some of the resales are....I've had 2 friends buy in the last two months. If every timeshare program was even half as easy to use as HGV is, I think resale would be 70% of retail.


----------



## Magus

Jason245 said:


> I guarantee you that DRI and HGVC management all view their customers with the same question "How much money can I get out of them?"


True for every corporation of any size, but people that make it to positions of power in general - Gov, Corps, Education, etc - all also think they are better than you and that the average person is extremely stupid.


----------



## ccwu

Sandy VDH said:


> There is a annual membership option that bHC owners have that is a higher priced annual fee, but it includes all reservations fees for free. I would gladly pay for this level if they would offer it. Maybe they will to cover the concept of what DRI had.



HGV does not charge fee for home resort reservation for your deeded owners. It is all depends on the unit on the contract. I own Resident Club bHC of NYC with 16,800 points and the MF is about $2914. (0.173 per point). There is just one HGV club fee. (NYC HC charges a separate club fee). Cheaper than DRI’s 0.19 per point. And my point to convert to Hilton honor point is 50/1. DRI charges much higher points for unit. Such as Kaanapali beach resort one bedroom from 6500 to 15,000 for one bedroom (depend on season and view). Two bedroom is normally 22,000 points (remember 0.19 per point). HGV charges 2500 to 6200 per one bedroom two bedroom is from 3500 to 14,400 nothing like DRI charges. As HGV owner, you can choose to get peak season premier unit with higher points paying the same MF as of standard view unit. Owner has to choice to pay higher front cost to save in the long run. Dri changes the number of point for reservation. Such as st maarten property. Flamingo beach ocean front studio was 4500 points per week in the past. After the fixed the resort after the disaster storm, now they are charging 7000 to 11,000 per studio unit. Once you buy into the trust, your points is variable. If they oversold, they just raise points for reservation. That is why so many unhappy owners, they bought 4500 for s studio week, now they could not get a week with the points. Whatever DRI changed the points rate is not right. We are platinum member for DRI and EP for HGV. We stopped buying DRI a long time ago. We are just bought premier 2 BR at platinum season, 14,400 GW at HHV in a owners update two weeks ago. We love HGV. On HGV website said that in the future DRI owner wants to exchange into HGV has to go thru DRI and RCI. So does HGV owner needs to go thru RCI for DRI resorts. Both DRI and HGV promised they are not keeping all the same benefit for their loyal owners. I believe HGV is going to protect our benefits. I guess Dri just has another sales pitch to sell product that you could use as a bridge to exchange into using HGV properties. 

By the way, we choose to be elite premier so we don’t pay any fees for transaction in HGV. We choose to be DRI platinum in the early DRI when there were many wonderful perks for being platinum member and sale rep were more decent and honest. DRI resale owners were treated differently. Not any perk and points are more restricted usage. Not sure how they trade in II. They can only use their home resorts. HGV treat resale points pretty much the same. I bought resale points and it was grouped in my membership mingled with my points bought directly from Hilton and treated the same at the owner’s elite level. I did trying to help a desperate DRI member and got his points to relieve him from MF. DRI put the 8500 resale point in a separate restricted account and i had to pay a separate membership fee. I paid $250 to DRI to give it back for the restriction. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jason245

Magus said:


> I actually very much disagree with this statement. I think there is a huge disconnect between *resale* value and the real value of timeshares, not retail and real value. Timeshares are complicated and no one (corporate/gov) is pushing re-sales nor educating potential buyers of resales and the various programs. When I explain how HGV works, most people can't believe how cheap some of the resales are....I've had 2 friends buy in the last two months. If every timeshare program was even half as easy to use as HGV is, I think resale would be 70% of retail.


That is driven by the lack of a true free market.. that is why I say that the true value is the experience at the resort and the value for it. I agree I got my hgvc for nothing and that was a true bargain and imho it was worth more. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## escanoe

Bit of wishful thinking:

Marriott owns II
Wyndham owns RCI

Diamond was kind of setting up its own exchange as I understand it (for things under their umbrella). I would like for HGVC to eventually launch an exchange not just limited to things under the HVCV/HGV umbrella and give II and RCI a bit more competition.

It seems in RCI that HGVC was a significant part of the upscale draw to the exchange. Add to that the strength of Diamond .... and HGVC will have some leverage to excerpt if they want.


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## nuwermj

escanoe said:


> Diamond was kind of setting up its own exchange as I understand it (for things under their umbrella). I would like for HGVC to eventually launch an exchange not just limited to things under the HVCV/HGV umbrella and give II and RCI a bit more competition.



Destination Exchange is Diamond's product. It is not limited to locations under the Diamond umbrella. Here is the membership guide with all the locations and other details.


			https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/destination-xchange-member-guide_2.pdf


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## escanoe

I will bet all of HGVC transitions to this over time. If they now own a competitor to RCI (and RCI is owned by the same company as Club Wyndham) it only makes sense to move over when they can.

I like my RCI points account (have one outside of HGVC) and I for one think the whole timeshare exchange business would improve if they had a third major competitor outside of II or RCI.



nuwermj said:


> Destination Exchange is Diamond's product. It is not limited to locations under the Diamond umbrella. Here is the membership guide with all the locations and other details.
> 
> 
> https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/destination-xchange-member-guide_2.pdf


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## pedro47

Sounds liked their will be now three major exchanges companies RCI, II and HGVC.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

escanoe said:


> I will bet all of HGVC transitions to this over time. If they now own a competitor to RCI (and RCI is owned by the same company as Club Wyndham) it only makes sense to move over when they can.
> 
> I like my RCI points account (have one outside of HGVC) and I for one think the whole timeshare exchange business would improve if they had a third major competitor outside of II or RCI.


From the perspective of the timeshare resort operator .....

You see your owners who want to stay at other resorts paying membership fees to exchange companies and then paying the exchange fee as well.  And if you're a smart business person, you start to think about how you can capture that money instead of the exchange company.

The answer is to build up a resort network that covers most of the places your members want to go to.  Then you set up a membership program for your resort network, where the members pay an annual membership fee, and they then meet most of their exchanging wishes via your resort network.  You still keep the exchange company on the side, because you will have owners who will want to travel outside your network.  And going outside the network they will have to pay a fee to the exchange company.

But now you're capturing most of that revenue that used to go to the exchange company. And because it's an internal reservations network, it's easier for your owners to make arrangements.  They can book directly out of available inventory, instead of waiting and hoping for someone to deposit a suitable week with the exchange company.


----------



## Eric B

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> ...  You still keep the exchange company on the side, because you will have owners who will want to travel outside your network.  And going outside the network they will have to pay a fee to the exchange company.
> .....


It's not just for your current owners who want to travel outside your network but also for a source of potential future owners exchanging in and seeing the benefits of it.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

This only works if the exchange rate is low. If they charge high points like we have seen with HGVCs recent additions in Cabo, and newer properties in the mini-system, then there is not much value to an exchange. The lines between an affiliate in a mini-system, and an exchange are blurring.

The larger question is whether one can deposit a week into another system. That will generate competition. IMHO, not sure the majors have that appetite. What is nice about RCI is that they want upscale HGVC in their system so the exchange rate is favorable.


----------



## nuwermj

Eric B said:


> It's not just for your current owners who want to travel outside your network but also for a source of potential future owners exchanging in and seeing the benefits of it.



I wonder whether this is an important marketing channel these days. Although in the past exchange guest were an important market (as they were already known buyers), today the branded companies seem to rely on the database of hotel customers. Marriott made a big deal about using the Hyatt database to sell the Welk product in their recent acquisition announcement. And when Diamond was a public company, investors were often critical of its lack of this marketing channel.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

nuwermj said:


> Destination Exchange is Diamond's product. It is not limited to locations under the Diamond umbrella. Here is the membership guide with all the locations and other details.
> 
> 
> https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/destination-xchange-member-guide_2.pdf



Is there a list of the resorts in this network?


----------



## Tamaradarann

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I liked the part where he said HCV would be an "upscale brand".  Thue HGVC is "upper upscale".



Yes, the impression that I got from Mark Wang is that they will NOT be intergrating Diamond Resorts into HGVC.  They will have a slightly lower brand name for Diamond Resorts HVC(Hilton Vacation Club).  Therefore, the exchange privileges would be different into HGVC resorts if you own HVC.   I am not sure what that would be but some or all of these may be possible:  (Since I don't know the Diamond Resort Reservation System I will just address the HGVC Resort reservation system)

-  Like with RCI exchanges now, when an HGVC member wants to reserve a week at an HGV resort, an HGVC Resort week would be deposited into the HVC reservation system
-  Instead of the 9 month club reservation window that HGVC members have HVC members might have a 3 or 6 month club reservation window.  
-  HGVC might make available for exchange some excessive inventory to HVC members where they know it won't be reserved by HGVC members through past experience


----------



## dioxide45

nuwermj said:


> Destination Exchange is Diamond's product. It is not limited to locations under the Diamond umbrella. Here is the membership guide with all the locations and other details.
> 
> 
> https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/destination-xchange-member-guide_2.pdf


Looking at the numbers beside their maps, they show access to some 4,700+ resorts. There is only one place they can get that. RCI. Do we know if their exchange is at least somewhat facilitated through RCI?


----------



## escanoe

Eric B said:


> It's not just for your current owners who want to travel outside your network but also for a source of potential future owners exchanging in and seeing the benefits of it.



This is the thing I don’t get about Diamond’s Destination Exchange, It says at this time you must have a Diamond managed resort to enroll? So it does not seem like as much of a marketing opportunity as it could be.

Yet, the destinations you can exchange into looks a fair amount like RCI. I see Wyndham properties and Vacation Village. How do they truly “exchange” for these if it is just Diamond customers/resorts doing all the trading? [Maybe they are exchanging for you through another exchange company?]

@CalGalTraveler, their exchange rates look quite competitive versus RCI. Less so for short stay exchanges compared to RCI Points.



			https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/destination-xchange-member-guide_2.pdf
		


I am sure Diamond (now HGVC) is early in building this out and will have grander plans.

I definitely think people exchanging in is a big marketing thing. Club Wyndham really wants to market to me every time I stay there. I assume they know something abt me from their owning RCI.  They probably view having HGVC in their network as a big marketing opportunity for them and a selling point to attract other resorts to affiliate with RCI.

I have to think HGVC also sees people exchanging in as a marketing opportunity. If not, why the 1 in three rule? Fresh meat for sales.

I don’t doubt the big boys have a much better marketing program that the smaller ones and that smaller ones are likely more dependent on exchangers coming in.


----------



## escanoe

See the post I just made. This answers my question about how they get inventory. 


dioxide45 said:


> Looking at the numbers beside their maps, they show access to some 4,700+ resorts. There is only one place they can get that. RCI. Do we know if their exchange is at least somewhat facilitated through RCI?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

escanoe said:


> Yet, the destinations you can exchange into looks a fair amount like RCI. *I see Wyndham properties and Vacation Village. *How do they truly “exchange” for these if it is just Diamond customers/resorts doing all the trading? [Maybe they are exchanging for you through another exchange company?]
> 
> @CalGalTraveler, *their exchange rates look quite competitive versus RCI. *Less so for short stay exchanges compared to RCI Points.
> 
> 
> 
> https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/destination-xchange-member-guide_2.pdf



Where are you finding the list of resorts? I don't see it in the guide.

Aren't those Diamond points? How does that translate to HGVC points?


----------



## escanoe

dioxide45 said:


> Do we know if their exchange is at least somewhat facilitated through RCI?



I am going to bet that they simply built their own portal to RCI versus them using the portal RCI offers to companies like HGVC. They also manage the fees/finances/negotiations rather than the money going directly to RCI.

But I wonder if their system may truly serve as an exchange for the Diamond properties. Be interesting if someone in their system and RCI could tell us how the Diamond units available on Diamond’s exchange compared to the same unit available on RCI.


----------



## escanoe

CalGalTraveler said:


> Where are you finding the list of resorts? I don't see it in the guide.
> 
> Aren't those Diamond points? How does that translate to HGVC points?



Search their resorts here.



			Destination Xchange
		


I have no way of knowing how to compare trading power. I was only comparing exchange fees when saying it was competitive (lower especially for weeks) than RCI.


----------



## youppi

escanoe said:


> I am going to bet that they simply built their own portal to RCI versus them using the portal RCI offers to companies like HGVC. They also manage the fees/finances/negotiations rather than the money going directly to RCI.
> 
> But I wonder if their system may truly serve as an exchange for the Diamond properties. Be interesting if someone in their system and RCI could tell us how the Diamond units available on Diamond’s exchange compared to the same unit available on RCI.


I posted this a year ago https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/d...ii-by-the-end-of-the-year.302601/post-2406620


----------



## nuwermj

dioxide45 said:


> Looking at the numbers beside their maps, they show access to some 4,700+ resorts. There is only one place they can get that. RCI. Do we know if their exchange is at least somewhat facilitated through RCI?



Diamond has long maintained developer to developer relationships whereby they agree to some kind of inventory exchange. Before Diamond acquired Embarc, that club and HGVC maintained such a relationship. These relationships are one source of inventory. 

Second, Diamond offers a program to buyers who own none Diamond timeshares. For example say I own a Welk timeshare. When I buy Diamond points, I can also enter the "Club Combination" program whereby I deposit my Welk week and get Diamond points. This Club Combo inventory is also added to Destination Exchange.


----------



## ccwu

dioxide45 said:


> Looking at the numbers beside their maps, they show access to some 4,700+ resorts. There is only one place they can get that. RCI. Do we know if their exchange is at least somewhat facilitated through RCI?



What DRI offers is that Dri member could buy into a program for members to deposit a non DRI resort week to exchange for DRI points. In return, they put the week in destination exchange for DRI member to exchange points to use the deposited non DRI week. Say, St someone deposit bluegreen week and awarded 7000 DRI points, the week would be in destination exchange for DRI member to use by using 7000 Dri point. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

ccwu said:


> What DRI offers is that Dri member could buy into a program for members to deposit a non DRI resort week to exchange for DRI points. In return, they put the week in destination exchange for DRI member to exchange points to use the deposited non DRI week. Say, St someone deposit bluegreen week and awarded 7000 DRI points, the week would be in destination exchange for DRI member to use by using 7000 Dri point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So in practice, for the most part, members of the new exchange can really only exchange into other DRI resorts or affiliates? Kind of like RTX.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Sandy VDH said:


> Mark Wang said, branding with be Hilton Club Vacations (rebranded Diamond), and Hilton Grand Club Vacations (existing HGVC plus select DRI locations).  If anyone was looking for naming info.



When he first said that, my initial thought was that must just be the working name, but then he repeated the new name multiple times.    Personally the two brand names are so similar that people will mix them up and be confused.    

But i am certainly no branding expert....


----------



## escanoe

1Kflyerguy said:


> Personally the two brand names are so similar that people will mix them up and be confused.



What is new? Hilton Club Vs by Hilton Club Vs Hilton Grand Vacation Club Vs Hilton Vacation Club Vs. Hilton Hotels

They want you to have an advanced degree in Hilton to know the difference.


----------



## sng85

This is a textbook deal if I saw one. Based on the messaging, HGVC is trying to setup a two tier offering, the premium+ existing HGVC brand and a premium- DRI. 

The rationale for typically doing this is to have an entry-level offering or on-ramp to attract new customers to the brand. DRI with more urban offerings and a younger customer base provides a captive audience for HGVC to continue attracting new customers and “upselling” existing DRI customers into the HGVC brand. This lowers their overall sales and marketing cost as you have to spend less on customer conversions when you have a captive audience. It also increases the life time value of what the company will get in fees from customers, ie all of us. This could be done through fees for an internal exchange, which many have suggested. Using M&A lingo, the new exchange/fees is a source of revenue synergy which neither company has today and the lowered sales and marketing is expense synergy to drive higher profit. 

For the developer and management company the timeshare model is a brilliant one; recurring revenue streams into perpetuity; and HGVC just added a major chunk of it. 

The concern with this one is how much debt HGVC inherited from Diamond (this should be publicly disclosed, I just haven’t read through the filings). Presumably since their previous owners were PE, their capital structure had a lot of debt, little equity. Eventually this debt will have to be carried and paid off through higher revenue and profit than their previous run-rate (synergy points above)

If anyone believes in vacation travel rebounding, this deal is well-timed. The usage of HGV stock is probably also a good move as it uses expensive currency (HGV stock is at all time high) to pay a deal premium, which shares the risk-reward between buyers and sellers (as opposed to cash-deal in which sellers get a premium upfront and buyers have the risk/reward of making it work post-deal).


----------



## nuwermj

sng85 said:


> The concern with this one is how much debt HGVC inherited from Diamond (this should be publicly disclosed, I just haven’t read through the filings). Presumably since their previous owners were PE, their capital structure had a lot of debt, little equity. Eventually this debt will have to be carried and paid off through higher revenue and profit than their previous run-rate (synergy points above)



HGV will get about $2.5 billion in debt. Apollo owns at least $1.1 billion: $500,000,000 at 7.75% and $600,000,000 at 10.75%


----------



## Magus

nuwermj said:


> HGV will get about $2.5 billion in debt. Apollo owns at least $1.1 billion: $500,000,000 at 7.75% and $600,000,000 at 10.75%



They will likely be able to refinance the interest rates considerably lower (synergies, better profile and more solid mgmt) and they said they expect to rapidly de-lever to 3x net debt over the next couple years, which is very comfortable level given the cash flow. Given what I'm seeing for leisure booking trends in recent weeks at my company, I think they are right that they will rapidly de-lever - it is picking up quickly. I live and breath lodging finance and I'm not worried about their debt load with the acquisition. That was the first thing I looked at as well. Lenders are being remarkably lenient on covenants in the current covid world.


----------



## elaine

Concur with Magus. DS also in leisure finance. Just had this conversation last week. His view is hotel based travel will rebound. Most in income brackets to afford were relatively fine during covid or actually better financially with extra vacation $ to spend. Cruising remains fo be seen. In a hotel, one can control circumstances better.


----------



## youppi

nuwermj said:


> Diamond has long maintained developer to developer relationships whereby they agree to some kind of inventory exchange. Before Diamond acquired Embarc, that club and HGVC maintained such a relationship. These relationships are one source of inventory.
> 
> Second, Diamond offers a program to buyers who own none Diamond timeshares. For example say I own a Welk timeshare. When I buy Diamond points, I can also enter the "Club Combination" program whereby I deposit my Welk week and get Diamond points. This Club Combo inventory is also added to Destination Exchange.


I just did a search for Hawaii and Florida inventory and this is my thought:
The "DestinationXchange Affiliate" seems to be the Club Combo/Select inventory because I see few check-in date per resort and I see some resorts affiliated to II like some Marriott's, Vistana,... and when I look at the HTML of the search result page, all those resorts have an id like" rowHeader-DRI-xxx" where xxx is a three letters:
KVV for Kahana Villa Vacation Club
KCB for Kauai Coast Resort At The Beachboy
KBV for Kahana Beach Vacation Club
MVC for Maui Beach Vacation Club
SPV  for Sheraton Vistana Villages
MGV for Marriott Grande Vista
...

The "DestinationXchange Partner" seems to be a sub set of the RCI inventory (less check-in date than on RCI per resorts and no Holiday-Inn resorts, no HGVC resorts, no Vacation Village resorts, few Wyndham resorts, ...) and when I look at the HTML of the search result page, all those resorts have an id like "rowHeader-RCI-xxxx" where xxxx is the same ID as the RCI web site
0029 for Kona Billfisher
2491 for Pono Kai Resort
5080 for Lawai Beach Resort
0450 for Sheraton Vistana Resort
7609 for Royal Palms
...

Note: When I check the destination directory, https://member.diamondresorts.com/Resorts, all Holiday-Inn resorts, HGVC resorts, Vacation Village resorts, Disney resorts are listed like any other RCI resorts but when I check for availability at those resorts there is nothing on DeX but there is full availability on RCI at those resorts.


----------



## Magus

Yup, business travel will come back slower (liability concerns, some meetings will permanently move to zoom, non-large cap firms balance sheets worse etc) but I expect leisure travel to be higher this summer than 2019 for exactly the reasons Elaine said combined with people ready to get out of their house. Much of last year, you could not tell where the weekends were just looking at our daily RevPAR (normally its very obvious), the last few weeks its starting to get easy to tell again which days are friday/saturday again and that delta is increasing each week.


----------



## sng85

Magus said:


> They will likely be able to refinance the interest rates considerably lower (synergies, better profile and more solid mgmt) and they said they expect to rapidly de-lever to 3x net debt over the next couple years, which is very comfortable level given the cash flow. Given what I'm seeing for leisure booking trends in recent weeks at my company, I think they are right that they will rapidly de-lever - it is picking up quickly. I live and breath lodging finance and I'm not worried about their debt load with the acquisition. That was the first thing I looked at as well. Lenders are being remarkably lenient on covenants in the current covid world.





nuwermj said:


> HGV will get about $2.5 billion in debt. Apollo owns at least $1.1 billion: $500,000,000 at 7.75% and $600,000,000 at 10.75%


Thanks! 100% agree @Magus, they will refinance and improve the capital structure compared to previous ownership. 
Interesting, DRI’s enterprise value was $3.9B, ($1.4B equity + 2.5B debt) compared to HGV at $5B. The higher debt/equity for DRI resulted in HGV ended up owning 72% of the combined companies. Good for HGV shareholders if you believe the deal thesis. 

The whole two tier structure has been employed very successfully by some companies. Nordstrom comes to mind- with their Nordstrom Rack brand they’re able to attract a younger millennial customer who eventually grows into a full-price customer. This used to be a big part of their investor messaging. I suppose there’s a generational chasm on preference for timeshare ownership. If this deal can help them close the generational chasm at all, could be a big change in the macro trend on timeshare values. (Speculating now, so I’ll stop at that)


----------



## youppi

youppi said:


> I posted this a year ago https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/d...ii-by-the-end-of-the-year.302601/post-2406620


@escanoe Something interesting. Last year all Hawaii Resorts were tier 6 on DeX (12,000 DRI points).
Now they are all tier 4 (8,000 DRI points)


		Code:
	

Kona Billfisher
Kona Billfisher DestinationXchange Partner
75-5841 Alii Drive,  Kailua-Kona,  Hawaii,  96740,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
The true 'aloha spirit' waits for you at the Kona Billfisher Resort on the southern edge of Kailua Kona, well within reach of all the excitement the big island of Hawaii offers. Explore the many beaches, shops, restaurants, clubs and other activities. The resort offers a respite from your activity, with a ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
15-Mar-2021 - 22-Mar-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
5-Apr-2021 - 12-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Pono Kai Resort
Pono Kai Resort DestinationXchange Partner
4-1250 Kuhio Highway,  Kapaa,  Hawaii,  96746,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Serenity is at this picturesque oceanfront resort. Immerse in island culture and traditions. There is an activity perfect for any age at this stunning resort. Unwind in a heated sun drenched pool, bask on the sandy beach or snorkel in deep blue waters and count tropical fish swimming at your feet. ... more
1 Bedroom
 
2 Bedroom
View Choices
17-Mar-2021 - 24-Mar-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
17-Mar-2021 - 24-Mar-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
24-Mar-2021 - 31-Mar-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
7-Apr-2021 - 14-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
17-Jul-2021 - 24-Jul-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
28-Aug-2021 - 4-Sep-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
4-Sep-2021 - 11-Sep-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
2-Oct-2021 - 9-Oct-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
17-Nov-2021 - 24-Nov-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
24-Nov-2021 - 1-Dec-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
4-Dec-2021 - 11-Dec-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Lawai Beach Resort
Lawai Beach Resort DestinationXchange Partner
5017 Lawai Road,  Koloa,  Hawaii,  96756,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Boasting a fantastic location on Poipu, Lawai Beach Resort is just steps from one of Kauai's best beaches for snorkeling, surfing, and whale-watching. The property features roomy, well-equipped accommodations, three swimming pools, hot tubs, various picnic areas with barbecue grills and ... more
2 Bedroom
 
1 Bedroom
View Choices
18-Mar-2021 - 25-Mar-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
20-Mar-2021 - 27-Mar-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Pacific Fantasy
Pacific Fantasy DestinationXchange Partner
c/o The Pono Kai,  Kapaa,  Hawaii,  96746,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Pacific Fantasy, within The Pono Kai Resort, is on the eastern coast of Kauai. Relax by the resort's outdoor pool or on the beach. Guests will find shuffleboard, tennis, and putting greens on-site and can play golf at one of several courses close by. The resort offers a seasonal ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
19-Mar-2021 - 26-Mar-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
26-Mar-2021 - 2-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
30-Apr-2021 - 7-May-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
15-Oct-2021 - 22-Oct-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Kuhio Banyan Club
Kuhio Banyan Club DestinationXchange Partner
2310 Kuhio Avenue,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Kuhio Banyan Club is located blocks away from the famous Waikiki Beach on the island of Oahu. Kuhio Banyan Club provides very moderate accommodations for guest wishing to experience the island. While Kuhio Banyan does not offer a pool, parking or any activities onsite, you will ... more
Studio
View Choices
20-Mar-2021 - 27-Mar-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
10-Apr-2021 - 17-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
1-May-2021 - 8-May-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
12-Jun-2021 - 19-Jun-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
3-Jul-2021 - 10-Jul-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
7-Aug-2021 - 14-Aug-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
5-Mar-2022 - 12-Mar-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Sweetwater at Kauai
Sweetwater at Kauai DestinationXchange Partner
At Alii Kai II Condominiums,  Princeville,  Hawaii,  96722,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Guests can opt for a swim in the Pacific Ocean or the resort's outdoor pool. Golf, tennis, and hiking can also be enjoyed near the resort. more
2 Bedroom
View Choices
20-Mar-2021 - 27-Mar-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Banyan Harbor
Banyan Harbor DestinationXchange Partner
3411 Wilcox Road,  Lihue,  Hawaii,  96766,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Just one block from the famous Kalapaki Beach and minutes from Lihue Airport, the Banyan Harbor of Kauai is in the perfect location. Enjoy the island's stunning panoramas while you relax at one of the most breathtaking locations on earth. This centrally situated Kauai complex is within two ... more
2 Bedroom
View Choices
21-Mar-2021 - 28-Mar-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
4-Apr-2021 - 11-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
13-Aug-2021 - 20-Aug-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
24-Sep-2021 - 1-Oct-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Kahana Falls
Kahana Falls DestinationXchange Partner
4260 Lower Honoapiilani Rd,  Lahaina,  Hawaii,  96761,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Welcome to the island of Maui and all of its beauty. The island is filled with colorful gardens and plenty of opportunities to enjoy scuba diving, fishing, sailing and snorkeling. To get an even better view of the splendor of Maui, take a helicopter ride. For the early riser, a morning trip to the top of ... more
Studio
 
1 Bedroom
 
2 Bedroom
 
Hotel
View Choices
26-Mar-2021 - 2-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
27-Mar-2021 - 3-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
10-Apr-2021 - 17-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
11-Jul-2021 - 18-Jul-2021    7 Nights   
Hotel
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
5-Nov-2021 - 12-Nov-2021    7 Nights   
Hotel
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
2-Dec-2021 - 9-Dec-2021    7 Nights   
Hotel
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
29-Apr-2022 - 6-May-2022    7 Nights   
Hotel
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
25-Jun-2022 - 2-Jul-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
3-Sep-2022 - 10-Sep-2022    7 Nights   
Hotel
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
3-Sep-2022 - 10-Sep-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Vacation Internationale Sea Mountain
Vacation Internationale Sea Mountain DestinationXchange Partner
95-788 Ninole Loop Road,  Pahala,  Hawaii,  96777,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Sea Mountain overlooks the Pacific Ocean on the Big Island of Hawaii, has its own 18-hole golf course. The condominiums are a half-mile from the Punaluu Black Sand Beach. The resort also offers four tennis courts and an outdoor pool. Area waters offer swimming, surfing, and snorkeling. Tours ... more
2 Bedroom
View Choices
27-Mar-2021 - 3-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
The Cliffs Club
The Cliffs Club DestinationXchange Partner
3811 Edward Road,  Princeville,  Hawaii,  96722,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
The Cliffs Club is located in Princeville, on Kauai's northern coast. Enjoy swimming in the beautiful pool and relaxing in a choice of two hot tubs. The resort also features two tennis courts, a full-size volleyball/badminton court, a half-court basketball court, two shuffleboard courts, and a ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
28-Mar-2021 - 4-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
25-Apr-2021 - 2-May-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
2-May-2021 - 9-May-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
4-Dec-2021 - 11-Dec-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Shell Vacations Club @ Kauai Coast Resort at the Beachboy
Shell Vacations Club @ Kauai Coast Resort at the Beachboy DestinationXchange Partner
520 Aleka Loop,  Kapaa, Kauai,  Hawaii,  96746,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Surrounded by swaying coconut palms and fragrant plumeria blossoms, Kauai Coast Resort at the Beachboy is ideal for family vacations, romantic escapes and relaxing getaways. The Kauai timeshare resort is situated on eight beautiful acres features a swimming pool with natural ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
16-Apr-2021 - 23-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Kona Islander
Kona Islander DestinationXchange Partner
75-5776 Kuakini Hwy,  Kailua-Kona,  Hawaii,  96740,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Studio
View Choices
5-Jun-2021 - 12-Jun-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
3-Jul-2021 - 10-Jul-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
25-Sep-2021 - 2-Oct-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Lifetime in Hawaii
Lifetime in Hawaii DestinationXchange Partner
At the Royal Kuhio,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Lifetime in Hawaii at the Royal Kuhio Condominium boasts one of Waikiki's most fashionable vacation addresses. Located on the 16th-27th floor of the Royal Kuhio building it is just minutes from the beach, the acclaimed Ala Wai Golf Course, the shops of the International Market Place, and ... more
Studio
View Choices
17-Jul-2021 - 24-Jul-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
7-Aug-2021 - 14-Aug-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
2-Apr-2022 - 9-Apr-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
28-May-2022 - 4-Jun-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
2-Jul-2022 - 9-Jul-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
6-Aug-2022 - 13-Aug-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
10-Dec-2022 - 17-Dec-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Shell Vacations Resort @ Kona Coast Resort II
Shell Vacations Resort @ Kona Coast Resort II DestinationXchange Partner
78-6842 Alii Drive,  Kailua-Kona,  Hawaii,  96740,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Come to the Big Island of Hawaii, home to beautiful, sun-drenched beaches, verdant hills and the Kona Coast Resort Phase II. You will have access to all the island has to offer, including deep-sea fishing, scuba diving, cruises and excellent shopping. Cool off in one of two swimming pools or relax in one ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
3-Sep-2021 - 10-Sep-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
The Cliffs Resort
The Cliffs Resort DestinationXchange Partner
3811 Edward Road,  Princeville,  Hawaii,  96722,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Kauai's northern coast has The Cliffs Resort in Princeville. On site guests will find an outdoor pool and four tennis courts. In addition, guests will have access to all of the facilities in the Princeville complex. Major attractions are the two Robert Trent Jones Jr. golf courses. The new Prince Course ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
18-Sep-2021 - 25-Sep-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Vacation Internationale Aloha Towers
Vacation Internationale Aloha Towers DestinationXchange Partner
Check-in desk,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Vacation Internationale Aloha Towers offers its guests numerous on-site vacation amenities. These include a swimming pool, saunas, hot tubs, paddle tennis courts and a barbecue area. Laundry facilities and elevators are also available and the resort is handicapped-accessible. The resort ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
20-Sep-2021 - 27-Sep-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Makai Club
Makai Club DestinationXchange Partner
4180 Lei O Papa Road,  Princeville,  Hawaii,  96722,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Located on a lush hillside neighboring the Makai Golf Course, the Makai Club Resort is the perfect base for your island adventure. While you could easily spend your entire vacation relaxing at the resort’s sparkling pool or the nearby beach, there’s ample opportunity to explore The Garden Isle by ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
10-Dec-2021 - 17-Dec-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Vacation Internationale Royal Kuhio
Vacation Internationale Royal Kuhio DestinationXchange Partner
2240 Kuhio Ave.,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
In the heart of the fun, a short walk from lively Waikiki Beach, Vacation Internationale Royal Kuhio offers pleasant one-bedroom accommodations with plenty to do. Renowned restaurants and one of the world's greatest beaches are just a few blocks from your door. Honolulu offers ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
6-Mar-2022 - 13-Mar-2022    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
8-May-2022 - 15-May-2022    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
26-Jun-2022 - 3-Jul-2022    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Imperial Hawaii Vacation Club
Imperial Hawaii Vacation Club DestinationXchange Partner
Imperial Hawaii Resort,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
This 27 floor high-rise has a pool deck and owners' lounge with panoramic views. The resort staff strives to fulfill the resort motto, "What can I do for you today?" by offering a wide array of services and amenities: an activity center in the lobby, golf club & tennis racquet rentals, beach ... more
Studio
View Choices
15-Jun-2022 - 22-Jun-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
13-Jul-2022 - 20-Jul-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
19-Nov-2022 - 26-Nov-2022    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Vacation Internationale Sea Village
Vacation Internationale Sea Village DestinationXchange Partner
75-5992 Alii Drive,  Kailua-Kona,  Hawaii,  96740,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
Beautiful gardens with more than 35 varieties of tropical flowers and trees highlight the landscaping. Guests of the resort can enjoy the on-site outdoor pool, whirlpool, and ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
25-Jun-2022 - 2-Jul-2022    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!


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## bauerej

Magus said:


> *Synergies:* The company expects run-rate cost synergies of $125MM in the first two years following close with the potential for significant revenue synergy opportunities. In addition, the combined company is expected to generate an adjusted FCF conversion rate of between 50-60%, due to cost management, a strong pipeline and acquired inventory, and reduced long-term inventory spend. In aggregate, the company is also expected to generate 50% of Segment Adjusted EBITDA from recurring sources following the acquisition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note from research analysts this morning



GREAT! With all this cost saving I am sure that HGV will reduce their high annual club membership fees!


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## youppi

youppi said:


> @escanoe Something interesting. Last year all Hawaii Resorts were tier 6 on DeX (12,000 DRI points).
> Now they are all tier 4 (8,000 DRI points)
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Kona Billfisher
> Kona Billfisher DestinationXchange Partner
> 75-5841 Alii Drive,  Kailua-Kona,  Hawaii,  96740,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> The true 'aloha spirit' waits for you at the Kona Billfisher Resort on the southern edge of Kailua Kona, well within reach of all the excitement the big island of Hawaii offers. Explore the many beaches, shops, restaurants, clubs and other activities. The resort offers a respite from your activity, with a ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 15-Mar-2021 - 22-Mar-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 5-Apr-2021 - 12-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Pono Kai Resort
> Pono Kai Resort DestinationXchange Partner
> 4-1250 Kuhio Highway,  Kapaa,  Hawaii,  96746,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Serenity is at this picturesque oceanfront resort. Immerse in island culture and traditions. There is an activity perfect for any age at this stunning resort. Unwind in a heated sun drenched pool, bask on the sandy beach or snorkel in deep blue waters and count tropical fish swimming at your feet. ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> 
> 2 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 17-Mar-2021 - 24-Mar-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 17-Mar-2021 - 24-Mar-2021    7 Nights
> 2 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 24-Mar-2021 - 31-Mar-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 7-Apr-2021 - 14-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 17-Jul-2021 - 24-Jul-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 28-Aug-2021 - 4-Sep-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 4-Sep-2021 - 11-Sep-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 2-Oct-2021 - 9-Oct-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 17-Nov-2021 - 24-Nov-2021    7 Nights
> 2 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 24-Nov-2021 - 1-Dec-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 4-Dec-2021 - 11-Dec-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Lawai Beach Resort
> Lawai Beach Resort DestinationXchange Partner
> 5017 Lawai Road,  Koloa,  Hawaii,  96756,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Boasting a fantastic location on Poipu, Lawai Beach Resort is just steps from one of Kauai's best beaches for snorkeling, surfing, and whale-watching. The property features roomy, well-equipped accommodations, three swimming pools, hot tubs, various picnic areas with barbecue grills and ... more
> 2 Bedroom
> 
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 18-Mar-2021 - 25-Mar-2021    7 Nights
> 2 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 20-Mar-2021 - 27-Mar-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Pacific Fantasy
> Pacific Fantasy DestinationXchange Partner
> c/o The Pono Kai,  Kapaa,  Hawaii,  96746,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Pacific Fantasy, within The Pono Kai Resort, is on the eastern coast of Kauai. Relax by the resort's outdoor pool or on the beach. Guests will find shuffleboard, tennis, and putting greens on-site and can play golf at one of several courses close by. The resort offers a seasonal ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 19-Mar-2021 - 26-Mar-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 26-Mar-2021 - 2-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 30-Apr-2021 - 7-May-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 15-Oct-2021 - 22-Oct-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Kuhio Banyan Club
> Kuhio Banyan Club DestinationXchange Partner
> 2310 Kuhio Avenue,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Kuhio Banyan Club is located blocks away from the famous Waikiki Beach on the island of Oahu. Kuhio Banyan Club provides very moderate accommodations for guest wishing to experience the island. While Kuhio Banyan does not offer a pool, parking or any activities onsite, you will ... more
> Studio
> View Choices
> 20-Mar-2021 - 27-Mar-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 10-Apr-2021 - 17-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 1-May-2021 - 8-May-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 12-Jun-2021 - 19-Jun-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 3-Jul-2021 - 10-Jul-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 7-Aug-2021 - 14-Aug-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 5-Mar-2022 - 12-Mar-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Sweetwater at Kauai
> Sweetwater at Kauai DestinationXchange Partner
> At Alii Kai II Condominiums,  Princeville,  Hawaii,  96722,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Guests can opt for a swim in the Pacific Ocean or the resort's outdoor pool. Golf, tennis, and hiking can also be enjoyed near the resort. more
> 2 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 20-Mar-2021 - 27-Mar-2021    7 Nights
> 2 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Banyan Harbor
> Banyan Harbor DestinationXchange Partner
> 3411 Wilcox Road,  Lihue,  Hawaii,  96766,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Just one block from the famous Kalapaki Beach and minutes from Lihue Airport, the Banyan Harbor of Kauai is in the perfect location. Enjoy the island's stunning panoramas while you relax at one of the most breathtaking locations on earth. This centrally situated Kauai complex is within two ... more
> 2 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 21-Mar-2021 - 28-Mar-2021    7 Nights
> 2 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 4-Apr-2021 - 11-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> 2 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 13-Aug-2021 - 20-Aug-2021    7 Nights
> 2 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 24-Sep-2021 - 1-Oct-2021    7 Nights
> 2 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Kahana Falls
> Kahana Falls DestinationXchange Partner
> 4260 Lower Honoapiilani Rd,  Lahaina,  Hawaii,  96761,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Welcome to the island of Maui and all of its beauty. The island is filled with colorful gardens and plenty of opportunities to enjoy scuba diving, fishing, sailing and snorkeling. To get an even better view of the splendor of Maui, take a helicopter ride. For the early riser, a morning trip to the top of ... more
> Studio
> 
> 1 Bedroom
> 
> 2 Bedroom
> 
> Hotel
> View Choices
> 26-Mar-2021 - 2-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 27-Mar-2021 - 3-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 10-Apr-2021 - 17-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> 2 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 11-Jul-2021 - 18-Jul-2021    7 Nights
> Hotel
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 5-Nov-2021 - 12-Nov-2021    7 Nights
> Hotel
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 2-Dec-2021 - 9-Dec-2021    7 Nights
> Hotel
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 29-Apr-2022 - 6-May-2022    7 Nights
> Hotel
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 25-Jun-2022 - 2-Jul-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 3-Sep-2022 - 10-Sep-2022    7 Nights
> Hotel
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 3-Sep-2022 - 10-Sep-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Vacation Internationale Sea Mountain
> Vacation Internationale Sea Mountain DestinationXchange Partner
> 95-788 Ninole Loop Road,  Pahala,  Hawaii,  96777,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Sea Mountain overlooks the Pacific Ocean on the Big Island of Hawaii, has its own 18-hole golf course. The condominiums are a half-mile from the Punaluu Black Sand Beach. The resort also offers four tennis courts and an outdoor pool. Area waters offer swimming, surfing, and snorkeling. Tours ... more
> 2 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 27-Mar-2021 - 3-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> 2 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> The Cliffs Club
> The Cliffs Club DestinationXchange Partner
> 3811 Edward Road,  Princeville,  Hawaii,  96722,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> The Cliffs Club is located in Princeville, on Kauai's northern coast. Enjoy swimming in the beautiful pool and relaxing in a choice of two hot tubs. The resort also features two tennis courts, a full-size volleyball/badminton court, a half-court basketball court, two shuffleboard courts, and a ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 28-Mar-2021 - 4-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 25-Apr-2021 - 2-May-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 2-May-2021 - 9-May-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 4-Dec-2021 - 11-Dec-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Shell Vacations Club @ Kauai Coast Resort at the Beachboy
> Shell Vacations Club @ Kauai Coast Resort at the Beachboy DestinationXchange Partner
> 520 Aleka Loop,  Kapaa, Kauai,  Hawaii,  96746,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Surrounded by swaying coconut palms and fragrant plumeria blossoms, Kauai Coast Resort at the Beachboy is ideal for family vacations, romantic escapes and relaxing getaways. The Kauai timeshare resort is situated on eight beautiful acres features a swimming pool with natural ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 16-Apr-2021 - 23-Apr-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Kona Islander
> Kona Islander DestinationXchange Partner
> 75-5776 Kuakini Hwy,  Kailua-Kona,  Hawaii,  96740,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Studio
> View Choices
> 5-Jun-2021 - 12-Jun-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 3-Jul-2021 - 10-Jul-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 25-Sep-2021 - 2-Oct-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Lifetime in Hawaii
> Lifetime in Hawaii DestinationXchange Partner
> At the Royal Kuhio,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Lifetime in Hawaii at the Royal Kuhio Condominium boasts one of Waikiki's most fashionable vacation addresses. Located on the 16th-27th floor of the Royal Kuhio building it is just minutes from the beach, the acclaimed Ala Wai Golf Course, the shops of the International Market Place, and ... more
> Studio
> View Choices
> 17-Jul-2021 - 24-Jul-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 7-Aug-2021 - 14-Aug-2021    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 2-Apr-2022 - 9-Apr-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 28-May-2022 - 4-Jun-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 2-Jul-2022 - 9-Jul-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 6-Aug-2022 - 13-Aug-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 10-Dec-2022 - 17-Dec-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Shell Vacations Resort @ Kona Coast Resort II
> Shell Vacations Resort @ Kona Coast Resort II DestinationXchange Partner
> 78-6842 Alii Drive,  Kailua-Kona,  Hawaii,  96740,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Come to the Big Island of Hawaii, home to beautiful, sun-drenched beaches, verdant hills and the Kona Coast Resort Phase II. You will have access to all the island has to offer, including deep-sea fishing, scuba diving, cruises and excellent shopping. Cool off in one of two swimming pools or relax in one ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 3-Sep-2021 - 10-Sep-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> The Cliffs Resort
> The Cliffs Resort DestinationXchange Partner
> 3811 Edward Road,  Princeville,  Hawaii,  96722,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Kauai's northern coast has The Cliffs Resort in Princeville. On site guests will find an outdoor pool and four tennis courts. In addition, guests will have access to all of the facilities in the Princeville complex. Major attractions are the two Robert Trent Jones Jr. golf courses. The new Prince Course ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 18-Sep-2021 - 25-Sep-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 6 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Vacation Internationale Aloha Towers
> Vacation Internationale Aloha Towers DestinationXchange Partner
> Check-in desk,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Vacation Internationale Aloha Towers offers its guests numerous on-site vacation amenities. These include a swimming pool, saunas, hot tubs, paddle tennis courts and a barbecue area. Laundry facilities and elevators are also available and the resort is handicapped-accessible. The resort ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 20-Sep-2021 - 27-Sep-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Makai Club
> Makai Club DestinationXchange Partner
> 4180 Lei O Papa Road,  Princeville,  Hawaii,  96722,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Located on a lush hillside neighboring the Makai Golf Course, the Makai Club Resort is the perfect base for your island adventure. While you could easily spend your entire vacation relaxing at the resort’s sparkling pool or the nearby beach, there’s ample opportunity to explore The Garden Isle by ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 10-Dec-2021 - 17-Dec-2021    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Vacation Internationale Royal Kuhio
> Vacation Internationale Royal Kuhio DestinationXchange Partner
> 2240 Kuhio Ave.,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> In the heart of the fun, a short walk from lively Waikiki Beach, Vacation Internationale Royal Kuhio offers pleasant one-bedroom accommodations with plenty to do. Renowned restaurants and one of the world's greatest beaches are just a few blocks from your door. Honolulu offers ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 6-Mar-2022 - 13-Mar-2022    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 8-May-2022 - 15-May-2022    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 26-Jun-2022 - 3-Jul-2022    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Imperial Hawaii Vacation Club
> Imperial Hawaii Vacation Club DestinationXchange Partner
> Imperial Hawaii Resort,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> This 27 floor high-rise has a pool deck and owners' lounge with panoramic views. The resort staff strives to fulfill the resort motto, "What can I do for you today?" by offering a wide array of services and amenities: an activity center in the lobby, golf club & tennis racquet rentals, beach ... more
> Studio
> View Choices
> 15-Jun-2022 - 22-Jun-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 13-Jul-2022 - 20-Jul-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> 19-Nov-2022 - 26-Nov-2022    7 Nights
> Studio
> Max 2 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
> Vacation Internationale Sea Village
> Vacation Internationale Sea Village DestinationXchange Partner
> 75-5992 Alii Drive,  Kailua-Kona,  Hawaii,  96740,  United States
> From 8,000 Points
> From Tier 4
> Beautiful gardens with more than 35 varieties of tropical flowers and trees highlight the landscaping. Guests of the resort can enjoy the on-site outdoor pool, whirlpool, and ... more
> 1 Bedroom
> View Choices
> 25-Jun-2022 - 2-Jul-2022    7 Nights
> 1 Bedroom
> Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!


and on DeX affiliate there is tier 2 and 3


		Code:
	

Kahana Villa Vacation Club
Kahana Villa Vacation Club DestinationXchange Affiliate 
4242 LOWER HONOPIILANI HWY,  Kahana, Maui,  Hawaii,  96761,  United States
From 6,000 Points
From Tier 3
1 Bedroom
View Choices
31-Mar-2021 - 7-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 2 People    6,000 Points / Tier 3    Book It!
10-Jul-2021 - 17-Jul-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 2 People    6,000 Points / Tier 3    Book It!
Kauai Coast Resort At The Beachboy
Kauai Coast Resort At The Beachboy DestinationXchange Affiliate 
520 ALEKA LOOP,  Kapaa, Kauai,  Hawaii,  96746,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
2 Bedroom
View Choices
7-Apr-2021 - 14-Apr-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Kahana Beach Vacation Club
Kahana Beach Vacation Club DestinationXchange Affiliate 
4221 LOWER HONOAPIILANI HWY,  Kahana, Maui,  Hawaii,  96761,  United States
From 4,000 Points
From Tier 2
Studio
View Choices
2-May-2021 - 9-May-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    4,000 Points / Tier 2    Book It!
9-May-2021 - 16-May-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    4,000 Points / Tier 2    Book It!
4-Sep-2021 - 11-Sep-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    4,000 Points / Tier 2    Book It!
Maui Beach Vacation Club
Maui Beach Vacation Club DestinationXchange Affiliate 
515 S. KIHEI RD.,  Kihei, Maui,  Hawaii,  96753,  United States
From 6,000 Points
From Tier 3
Situated on the southwest coast of Maui, the Maui Beach Vacation Club offers tastefully decorated one- and two-bedroom suites. On-site amenities include a swimming pool, whirlpool, barbecue grills, activity ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
11-Jul-2021 - 18-Jul-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 2 People    6,000 Points / Tier 3    Book It!
The Gardens At West Maui
The Gardens At West Maui DestinationXchange Affiliate 
5500 LOWER HONOAPILANI HWY,  Kapaluia Maui,  Hawaii,  96761,  United States
From 6,000 Points
From Tier 3
Adjacent to Kapalua, Maui's 750 acre premier resort community, The Gardens at West Maui, is nearby a host of championship golf courses, resort restaurants, cafes and shops. "America's Favorite" beach at Kapalua ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
1-Aug-2021 - 8-Aug-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 2 People    6,000 Points / Tier 3    Book It!
Kona Coast Resort Ii
Kona Coast Resort Ii DestinationXchange Affiliate 
78-6842 ALII DRIVE,  Kailua-Kona,  Hawaii,  96739,  United States
From 6,000 Points
From Tier 3
Come to the Big Island of Hawaii, home to beautiful, sun-drenched beaches, verdant hills and the Kona Coast Resort Phase II. You will have access to all the island has to offer, including deep-sea fishing, scuba diving, ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
13-Aug-2021 - 20-Aug-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 2 People    6,000 Points / Tier 3    Book It!
Kona Coast Resort
Kona Coast Resort DestinationXchange Affiliate 
78-6842 ALII DR,  Kailua Kona,  Hawaii,  96739,  United States
From 6,000 Points
From Tier 3
Sitting on 21 acres of lush, tropical gardens amid the panoramic backdrop of Hawaii's Kona Coast, the Kona Coast Resort on Hawaii's Big Island offers spectacular views of palm trees and calm waters. Here you'll find ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
21-Aug-2021 - 28-Aug-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 2 People    6,000 Points / Tier 3    Book It!
Kuhio Banyan Club
Kuhio Banyan Club DestinationXchange Affiliate 
2310 KUHIO AVE,  Honolulu, Oahu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
From 4,000 Points
From Tier 2
Kuhio Banyan Club is located blocks away from the famous Waikiki Beach on the island of Oahu. Kuhio Banyan Club provides very moderate accommodations for guest wishing to experience the island. While Kuhio Banyan ... more
Studio
View Choices
12-Sep-2021 - 19-Sep-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    4,000 Points / Tier 2    Book It!
19-Sep-2021 - 26-Sep-2021    7 Nights   
Studio
Max 2 People    4,000 Points / Tier 2    Book It!
Hawaiian Princess At Makaha Beach
Hawaiian Princess At Makaha Beach DestinationXchange Affiliate 
84-1021 LAHILAHI ST.,  Makaha,  Hawaii,  96792,  United States
From 6,000 Points
From Tier 3
1 Bedroom
View Choices
12-Sep-2021 - 19-Sep-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 2 People    6,000 Points / Tier 3    Book It!
Paniolo Greens
Paniolo Greens DestinationXchange Affiliate 
68-1845 WAIKOLOA RD,  Waikoloa,  Hawaii,  96738,  United States
From 8,000 Points
From Tier 4
A quick 10-minute drive from the beach, Paniolo Greens is perfect for everything from romantic getaways to family vacations to golf outings. With stunning golf and mountain views, the resort has a swimming pool with ... more
2 Bedroom
View Choices
8-Oct-2021 - 15-Oct-2021    7 Nights   
2 Bedroom
Max 4 People    8,000 Points / Tier 4    Book It!
Royal Aloha Vacation Club Waikiki
Royal Aloha Vacation Club Waikiki DestinationXchange Affiliate 
2150 ALOHA DRIVE,  Honolulu,  Hawaii,  96815,  United States
From 6,000 Points
From Tier 3
Vacation Internationale Aloha Towers offers its guests numerous on-site vacation amenities. These include a swimming pool, saunas, hot tubs, paddle tennis courts and a barbecue area. Laundry facilities and elevators ... more
1 Bedroom
View Choices
11-Nov-2021 - 18-Nov-2021    7 Nights   
1 Bedroom
Max 2 People    6,000 Points / Tier 3    Book It!


----------



## jeepinjoel

elaine said:


> So, would a diamond owner have access to HGVC units?


Eventually, yes they will.  The details regarding point values will have to be worked out, but I’m looking forward to this deal.


----------



## Tamaradarann

jeepinjoel said:


> Eventually, yes they will.  The details regarding point values will have to be worked out, but I’m looking forward to this deal.


I totally agree that the point values of Diamond Resorts(the newly designated HVC club resorts) will need to evaluated and worked out.  HGVC has already started to have different point values for some of the new resorts so that evaluating and assigning point values to Diamond Resorts should not be a problem.  I just hope they don't allow DRI members to book HGVC resorts at the current 9 month club reservation window and hurt the benefits that existing HGVC members have now.  If they implement an inter-club reservation window at 3 or 6 months instead of 9 month start of HGVC reservation period that should work well.


----------



## eleigh

I am a Diamond deeded week owner in Lake Tahoe-Lake Tahoe Vacation Resort 2 bedroom.  How do you think HGVC will deal with traditional weeks owners?  At our last owner up date 2 years ago they were really pushing conversion into/buy more points, which we have no interest in doing.  Do you think HGCV will offer a buy back to owners of traditional weeks?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

eleigh said:


> I am a Diamond deeded week owner in Lake Tahoe-Lake Tahoe Vacation Resort 2 bedroom.  How do you think HGVC will deal with traditional weeks owners?  At our last owner up date 2 years ago they were really pushing conversion into/buy more points, which we have no interest in doing.  Do you think HGCV will offer a buy back to owners of traditional weeks?



No one knows yet. Deedback will depend on whether they want the week to add to the existing trust, or offer it as a deeded week to new buyers per the traditional HGVC model. Given HGVC doesn't have a Lake Tahoe location, I would imagine it would offer value. I estimate that the HI properties would be the first priority for renovation and deedbacks given the large Asian customer base and prior unmet demand for higher end HI deeds. However, Covid may have changed all that with people preferring drive-to locations.


----------



## dougp26364

eleigh said:


> I am a Diamond deeded week owner in Lake Tahoe-Lake Tahoe Vacation Resort 2 bedroom.  How do you think HGVC will deal with traditional weeks owners?  At our last owner up date 2 years ago they were really pushing conversion into/buy more points, which we have no interest in doing.  Do you think HGCV will offer a buy back to owners of traditional weeks?



I believe your ownership will go on just as it always has if you’re a traditional week owner not involved in DRI’s points program. Nothing will change other than maybe the name on the resort to Hilton Vacation Club and signage around the resort.

You’ll still get pushed at the owners update to convert your week and participate in whatever points program they dream up. That will never change. They’ll ALWAYS want to sell you the next great thing. 

Sales staff is a great source for rumors, but generally a poor source for facts.


----------



## BingoBangoBongo

escanoe said:


> What is new? Hilton Club Vs by Hilton Club Vs Hilton Grand Vacation Club Vs Hilton Vacation Club Vs. Hilton Hotels
> 
> They want you to have an advanced degree in Hilton to know the difference.



Or they have a strong desire to pay some marketing firm $2M in a few years to rebrand all of them under some obscure name that is impossible to remember or spell correctly.


----------



## Bxian

brp said:


> We stayed at that Grand Hyatt a few years back, and it was fabulous. And likely as pricey as you say. Not wanting to pay that, we used points
> 
> With an option to stay in the same area, albeit in less fancy digs, at a reduced cost, we'd jump on that.
> 
> Cheers.


We did, too.  I was A Diamond Hyatt member at the time, so we got upgraded to a gorgeous suite and had free breakfast, plus access to the spa.  The spa products smelled so heavenly that we went up there every day and used their showers. Hmm-if this works out, and HGVC can get into Points at Poipu, I am dreaming of a week using points at the Grand Hyatt and a TS trade into Points at Poipu......


----------



## GT75

eleigh said:


> At our last owner up date 2 years ago they were really pushing conversion into/buy more points


The sales staff will always tell you that you need to buy something.


----------



## DannyTS

GT75 said:


> The sales staff will always tell you that you need to buy something.


And that it is the last chance to buy, the prices are going up!


----------



## Talent312

Whatever they do, this means guaranteed employment
for the geeks in HGVC's IT department. God help us all !
_._


----------



## Bxian

I find myself wondering if Diamond's online reservation system is any better than the horror that is HGVC's.....


----------



## farinc

GT75 said:


> HGV strikes deal to acquire Diamond Resorts - https://seekingalpha.com/news/36711...k-3&utm_medium=email&utm_source=seeking_alpha
> 
> 
> or HGV press release - https://www.hiltongrandvacations.co...es-pdf/hgv_press-release_2021-03-10_final.pdf
> 
> or   Q&As on HGV Club page  - https://club.hiltongrandvacations.com/en/hgv-announces-plans-to-acquire-diamond-resorts
> 
> Previous threads on this merger when Apollo was looking to buy HGV - https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/apollo-group-looking-to-buy-hgvc-merged.294385/    or      https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/apollo-diamond.314104/


Thank god I was able to give my two 2 bedroom suites for Christmas and New Years Polo Towers weeks away.  What an effing albatross TS are as an owner.  Nothing like being a member of Interval and RCI to buy weeks to use for pennies on the dollar. Diamond was the worse experience with the narcissistic buffoon who was CEO before.


----------



## chaparrusa

Diamond resorts , i do avoid , they all have a resort fee + some are charging a mandatory housekeeping fee . you can always find them on hotels.com and then you can stay just for a few days as you need to ,not a big deal at all .  Westgate ,Diamond and Bluegreen are by far the worst timeshare companies in the industry .


----------



## ocdb8r

CalGalTraveler said:


> This only works if the exchange rate is low. If they charge high points like we have seen with HGVCs recent additions in Cabo, and newer properties in the mini-system, then there is not much value to an exchange. The lines between an affiliate in a mini-system, and an exchange are blurring.



It's all about perspective; the high point value resorts in HGVC are becoming the norm.  It won't be long before the "original" resorts represent the minority of owners (and thus the new majority won't see any value problem).



sng85 said:


> For the developer and management company the timeshare model is a brilliant one; recurring revenue streams into perpetuity;



It's not purely the revenue stream that makes it unique...it's a combination of guaranteed management contracts via maintaining control of HOAs as well as guaranteed occupancy that far exceeds the average of nearly any regular hotel.


----------



## dougp26364

Bxian said:


> I find myself wondering if Diamond's online reservation system is any better than the horror that is HGVC's.....



I always thought DRI’s website was relatively easy to use when we were owners. IMO it was a darn site better than HGVC’s site.


----------



## Sandy VDH

In the past HGVC let you register a fixed week and enroll it in HGVC without an additional points purchase, unlike other players.  There is a charge to to this and a charge to set up the HGVC account, but it is done at affiliates, certainly with the Bay Club and with the S FL resorts where owners may not have already been part of HGVC.  Wonder if they will let those resorts that are weeks and not points convert into HGVC points the same way.  I don't see why not.


----------



## karibkeith

pianodinosaur said:


> Frankly, we would  both love to go back to the Club IntraWest resorts that are currently owned by Diamond.


Diamond bought club Intrawest and rebranded it as Embarc. Despite being told on two occasions that they would be available to Club members, they are not. They are in a separate "trust". It will be interested to see what happens with the merger.

Diamond has a convoluted portfolio because so many properties were acquired by Diamond acquisitions of small chains. So they ended up with some dogs as well as some good properties. They ended up with a  slew of properties in Sedona with acquisitions.  In some cases they have been slow with renovations of acquired properties. They make a lot of promises but with little action. I hope the standard of representatives improves.


----------



## karibkeith

dougp26364 said:


> I always thought DRI’s website was relatively easy to use when we were owners. IMO it was a darn site better than HGVC’s site.


As a non member pf HGVC, I cannot sign on in the hope of getting more details but to the extent that. I had access, I was not impressed with their website. I could not even find a list of properties


----------



## Clifbell

GT75 said:


> HGV strikes deal to acquire Diamond Resorts - https://seekingalpha.com/news/36711...k-3&utm_medium=email&utm_source=seeking_alpha
> 
> 
> or HGV press release - https://www.hiltongrandvacations.co...es-pdf/hgv_press-release_2021-03-10_final.pdf
> 
> or   Q&As on HGV Club page  - https://club.hiltongrandvacations.com/en/hgv-announces-plans-to-acquire-diamond-resorts
> 
> Previous threads on this merger when Apollo was looking to buy HGV - https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/apollo-group-looking-to-buy-hgvc-merged.294385/    or      https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/apollo-diamond.314104/


I am pretty excited by this event as I hgvc and this puts them on par with the bigger timeshare companies... I am sure there will be issues with the merger.   The one thing I am struggling to see is the "real" locations vs. the affiliated locations... It is hard to see how this merger will unfold, but I am the optimist


----------



## karibkeith

geist1223 said:


> We are DRI Owners. With Club Select/Club Combination we are Platinum. We actually only own 19,000 DRI Points. How will this affect our Ownership and Benefits? Also with the DRI Exchange Program we have 2 Level 6's and 1 Level 2 Deposited. We have 5 years to use those. We recently changed from the Hawaiian Collection to Cabo Azul.
> 
> We are not happy. We are in a state of confusion. Every one talks about how wonderful KBC is. We were not that impressed when we were there a couple years ago. They Beach was only about 15 feet at low tide and basically nil at high tide. We have also heard rumors of issues with KBC that may involve the underpinings of structure and also Pool issues.
> 
> We have enjoyed DRI and have learned to use the System to our Benefit. Nothing we can do about it. Wait and see what develops.


I am in the same boat and it has just sprung a leak. Somehow I see trouble with my Platinum status. It would be nice if they left the two systems as they are but with some cross-over provisions. I am awaiting the inevitable class action suit.


----------



## rickandcindy23

This merger will not affect me in the slightest, but I can honestly say, Hilton and Diamond both charging extra fees for exchanges is a big turnoff for me.  And Diamond is acquiring so many properties now that those fees are an unknown to me.  I recently got a match to a Branson resort and saw the disclosure that says, "There may be fees..." on my II exchange form.  I am going to trade that one away.  I am not going to pay extra fees in Branson or Orlando, the two easiest places to get Marriott.  If Marriott decides to follow suit and charge fees, we are all going to be complaining.


----------



## WORLD TRAVELER

I'm thinking that HGVC can implement a similar program that they had with Club Interwest (Embarc) previously where Club Interwest was considered an affiliate of HGVC and they maintained their own point structure for their resorts and were given a point overlay to use to exchange into HGVC and Club Interwest properties were assigned a point value for HGVC members to be able to exchange into at the 9 month timeframe through the club exchange window.  This type of point overlay could be applied to the entire Diamond system along with Club Interwest (Embarc).  Then they wouldn't have to have to move properties in and out of a trust. They could leave each system's internal point programs currently as they are and facilitate the overlay for exchanges in and between each system's properties.


----------



## Tamaradarann

eleigh said:


> I am a Diamond deeded week owner in Lake Tahoe-Lake Tahoe Vacation Resort 2 bedroom.  How do you think HGVC will deal with traditional weeks owners?  At our last owner up date 2 years ago they were really pushing conversion into/buy more points, which we have no interest in doing.  Do you think HGCV will offer a buy back to owners of traditional weeks?



You should be able to continue to use your week like you always do or deposit it to RCI if that is your desire.  I would think that HGVC will give your unit some type of point value in the future.  Then you may be able to exchange it within the HGVC/HVC system if and when that is set up without going to RCI.  As far as buying it back your week, HGVC will most probably give you some credit for your Lake Tahoe Timeshare toward the purchase an HGVC Timeshare like they do with current HGVC members at owners updates.


----------



## karibkeith

dayooper said:


> A question for @dougp26364 @T_R_Oglodyte and anybody else that might want to take a wild guess: How hard would it be to pull certain resorts out of the DRI Trust? If HGVC wanted to rebrand a few of the Diamond properties into HGVC resorts, could they just pull them out? I'm not familiar enough with a trust product to know if there are restrictions to what HGVC/Diamond can and can't do.


Interesting question! I am a member in the U.S. collection which has grown over the years. If they pull some resorts out, I will be in line for the inevitable class action suit.
I think they may have to go with some grandfathered provisions. HGVC should not be able to cherry pick through DRI resorts to the detriment of current DRI members.  
Whenever DRI bought out a chain they had to deal with owners in the acquired entity. They would try to have them buy into the Club. If there was a lot of resistance, they had a problem like with a place in Lake Tahoe and with Intrawest/Embarc. Some DRI properties have legacy week owners. HGVC will now face problems with DRI owners. HGVC bought the company, not the members' rights.   This whole thing is turning into a real can of worms.


----------



## escanoe

karibkeith said:


> This whole thing is turning into a real can of worms.



Or is it just a bunch of of people (self included) blabbing on the Internet?

I would be surprised if what you own is devalued. But with everything in life (certainly timeshares) there is always a certain amount of unpredictability.


----------



## karibkeith

ocdb8r said:


> I am sure they will develop some sort of "system" to permit interaction between the trusts, bHC and existing HGV resorts.


I sure hope you are right. What is "by Hilton Club"? Is it timeshare? If so, why is there two Hilton timeshare entities? I have wondered why Wyndham has three entities and never attempted to merge them. It  gives me hope that DRI will remains separate! If I had wanted to be an HGVC member I would have into it and not into DRI.


----------



## karibkeith

Zenichiro said:


> Interesting article on the CEP mindset.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hilton Grand Vacations CEO on Diamond acquisition: it 'really sets us up for recovery'
> 
> 
> Yahoo Finance’s Julie Hyman, Myles Udland, and Brian Sozzi speak with Hilton Grand Vacations CEO Mark Wang about the company's $1.4 billion Diamond Resorts Acquisition, and timeshare industry outlook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com


So is the rebranding going to be Hilton Not-so-Grand Vacation Club or Hilton's Second-Class-Citizens Vacation Club? Sure sounds like a screwing in the future for us DRI owners or at the least some reduction to a  "how did you ever get invited to the party?" status.


----------



## karibkeith

BingoBangoBongo said:


> BRIAN SOZZI: Mark what are your plan-- are you going to rebrand Diamond Resorts? How do you think about the integration of the asset?
> 
> MARK WANG: Sure. No, great-- great question. That's where we can bring significant value. We have this iconic brand with Hilton Grand Vacations, and we're going to be rebranding the Diamond portfolio. It'll take a couple of years to get the rebranding completed.
> 
> But when you think about the power of putting the Hilton brand on and connecting it to the Hilton [? engine, ?] it will, number one, create a tremendous amount of credibility. *It'll allow us to attract customers, higher-quality customers than Diamond was able to attract*. And we think the performance of the combined entity is going to be very powerful.
> 
> 
> Kind of a harsh way to talk about your recently acquired customer base.





escanoe said:


> I Generally like HGVC management, but seems like a bit too much elitism from the CEO, "It'll allow us to attract customers, higher-quality customers than Diamond was able to attract."
> 
> Any of you Diamond owners thinking about the transition to HGV offended? Wonder how they talk about us resale buyers behind our back?


You are damn right I am offended! As I said in an earlier post we are destined to being treated like second hand citizens by the snob CEO!


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@karibkeith I agree that didn't come out right. However it wouldn't take it too literally. It's not what they say, it's what they do. Compared to what I have heard about Diamond, HGVC management has been good to owners.

IMO except for branding, I expect that they would keep both systems the same but gradually make changes:

1) Permit point overlays and cross-over trades between systems. Some will be mini-system e.g. Embarc/HGVC affiliate trades with HGV points - HGV has a history of affiliate trading with Embarc before it was acquired by Diamond. It wouldn't be hard to pull out those old points charts. Others will be RCI like trades for DRI Collection resorts or deeded weeks.
2) As people deedback units and walk from DRI trust shares, HGVC can withdraw units from the trust for other purposes. No different than MVC or Vistana moving inventory around their trusts and deeded weeks. As @nuwermj stated previously, certain resorts may become a mix of trust, deed and ??? programs. I am sure the lawyers put in place trust language to allow for such changes.  I wouldn't be surprised if Diamond was already doing this.
3) It is also possible that they may offload some properties that don't meet their standards and would be too costly to renovate relative to the sales/rental/management fee potential.  With so many redundant properties in certain locations, jettisoning certain properties may increase profits.


----------



## Sandy VDH

karibkeith said:


> As a non member pf HGVC, I cannot sign on in the hope of getting more details but to the extent that. I had access, I was not impressed with their website. I could not even find a list of properties



Try out TUG page and try this......









						Timeshare Vacation Resorts & Destinations | Hilton Grand Vacations
					

Learn about the upscale timeshare vacation resorts and destinations that Hilton Grand Vacations has to offer. Explore vacation ownership today.




					www.hiltongrandvacations.com
				












						HGVC Detailed Resort & Affiliated Information
					

Please limit this thread to only the detailed information on a HGVC specific resorts.      This can include affiliate information, resort maps, room codes or other specific resort information which TUG members going to this resort will find useful.    For discussion/commentary please use the to...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## Sandy VDH

karibkeith said:


> I sure hope you are right. What is "by Hilton Club"? Is it timeshare? If so, why is there two Hilton timeshare entities?



By Hilton Club (bHC) is a separate club.  Owners there have slightly different rules.  The bHC resorts are generally urban locations (DC and NYC) and they have priority to their own bHCs clubs first, then that availability eventually opens up to HGVC members.  bHC  are allowed to book HGVC units with their bHC points.  It is like a club within a club.  The currency is the exact same currency, it is just different inventory buckets. 

Wyndham is like that with levels (WM aside it is it like $$ and Euros), DRI sounds like it is like that too.  

Most of us here, think that HGVC is a great company, managed well, and mindful of its owners.  I don't know why you think they will treat you like second class members.


----------



## Talent312

karibkeith said:


> So is the rebranding going to be Hilton Not-so-Grand Vacation Club or Hilton's Second-Class-Citizens Vacation Club? Sure sounds like a screwing in the future for us DRI owners or at the least some reduction to a  "how did you ever get invited to the party?" status.



You're likely to be treated way better than Westgate owners at Elara.  When HGVC took over Elara, the existing owners were largely ignored. Unlike Cinderella, they did not get a chariot, there was no glass slipper, and no prince (or white knight) came calling. IOW, they could not/cannot join HGVC. To be fair, HGVC only took over management + sales at the site.



karibkeith said:


> What is "by Hilton Club"? Is it timeshare? If so, why is there two Hilton timeshare entities?



"Hilton Club" was intended as the skyboxes on the HGVC stadium, meaning elite resorts where the well-heeled need not associate with regular HGVC folk. However, AFAIK, only "Hilton Club of NY" was branded as such. Instead, most similarly situated urban resorts were branded as "--- by Hilton Club" to indicate their above-the-rest status. Owners there get extended booking windows and other perks, but they are bookable within a restricted window by all HGVC members.

.


----------



## karibkeith

escanoe said:


> This is the thing I don’t get about Diamond’s Destination Exchange, It says at this time you must have a Diamond managed resort to enroll? So it does not seem like as much of a marketing opportunity as it could be.


I am a DRI owner. During the past year, DRI announced they were terminating their association with II at the end of 2020 and giving a membership in Destination Xchange. When I did a search on DEX I found guides back to 2016-2017. It appeared to me that it was an exchange company for anyone to join., the latest edition is 2020-21 and it is a different guide than the one for members of the Club. The former has resort descriptions and the latter does not as the descriptions and availability is integrated with the DRI system. I am led to believe that their are twin DEX systems, One for DRI Club members and one for non-club people. DRI Club members deposit through an existing system (Club Select/Comb) and non-club people deposit directly. I think DRI Club members are barred from direct deposits which  could be another Diamond screwing.


----------



## Zenichiro

I have my doubts but I am hoping for access to Great wolf lodge. Anyone know if they come with the deal?


----------



## Sandy VDH

Zenichiro said:


> I have my doubts but I am hoping for access to Great wolf lodge. Anyone know if they come with the deal?



Dont think so. But not sure if anybody is sure of the exact list.  But I think these were associates.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Talent312 said:


> You're likely to be treated way better than Westgate owners at Elara.  When HGVC took over Elara, the existing owners were largely ignored. Unlike Cinderella, they did not get a chariot, there was no glass slipper, and no prince (or white knight) came calling. IOW, they could not/cannot join HGVC. To be fair, HGVC only took over management + sales at the site.



Of course in the case of Elara, its also possible that Westgate mandated that HGV not try to poach or attempt their customers...


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

karibkeith said:


> You are damn right I am offended! As I said in an earlier post we are destined to being treated like second hand citizens by the snob CEO!



I think what he was getting at is the demographics are slightly different between the two companies.   By combining into once entity, in theory they have increased their addressable market.

According to the investor call they held on Wednesday,  the average Diamond customer has an income of just under $100,000 with a Fico of 726, and the average HGV customer has an income of just over $100,000 and a Fico of 746.  Both numbers are very good.  

I think Diamonds trust model if more appealing to younger buyers that may feel the deeded week concept that HGV still uses ties you into a specific location.  In addition you can sell trust points in smaller increments, both for the initial sale and subsequent add-on sales.


----------



## escanoe

karibkeith said:


> When I did a search on DEX I found guides back to 2016-2017. It appeared to me that it was an exchange company for anyone to join., the latest edition is 2020-21 and it is a different guide than the one for members of the Club. The former has resort descriptions and the latter does not as the descriptions and availability is integrated with the DRI system. I am led to believe that their are twin DEX systems, One for DRI Club members and one for non-club people.



Where do you see info for the DEX anyone can join? This is the only website I see for Destination Exchange. When you click to sign up or log it, it seems pretty straight forward you must be a Diamond owner. Thanks for helping to sort this out.


----------



## youppi

karibkeith said:


> I am a DRI owner. During the past year, DRI announced they were terminating their association with II at the end of 2020 and giving a membership in Destination Xchange. When I did a search on DEX I found guides back to 2016-2017. It appeared to me that it was an exchange company for anyone to join., the latest edition is 2020-21 and it is a different guide than the one for members of the Club. The former has resort descriptions and the latter does not as the descriptions and availability is integrated with the DRI system. I am led to believe that their are twin DEX systems, One for DRI Club members and one for non-club people. DRI Club members deposit through an existing system (Club Select/Comb) and non-club people deposit directly. I think DRI Club members are barred from direct deposits which  could be another Diamond screwing.


It was not for everybody. DRI started DeX for DRI deeded owners in 2016-2017 with only DRI resorts in it. It was a kind of THE Club for deeded weeks owners.
You can search the DRI section about this subject (there is many posts on that).


----------



## dougp26364

karibkeith said:


> You are damn right I am offended! As I said in an earlier post we are destined to being treated like second hand citizens by the snob CEO!



Wow! I think you’re just a little bit premature with this thought. 

We were DRI owners from 1998 until 2015. We’ve been HGVC owners since 2002. With DRI we had 15,500 points between our 2 deeded Polo Towers weeks and, at the time, Silver Elite status.

It’s strong knowledge of both management styles, how each company works and the quality of both products. I do not anticipate that DRI owners will be treated like “second hand” owners/citizens. Having said that, I will say definitively IMHO that DRI resorts are a step below HGVC.

So here’s the quandary. Do you try to bring all DRI resorts up to HGVC standards or, have a different tier of ownership. Have you owned with DRI long enough to know what DRI’s choice was when they bought Sunterra out of bankruptcy? They choose to bring all the resorts up to DRI standards. Any idea what they did to MF’s? They skyrocketed overnight and kept climbing for a couple of years. 

HGVC appears to want to take the other option. Keep DRI resorts at basically current standards and rebrand them. 

Second hand? Maybe a different class or their own class but not second hand.


----------



## Tamaradarann

rickandcindy23 said:


> This merger will not affect me in the slightest, but I can honestly say, Hilton and Diamond both charging extra fees for exchanges is a big turnoff for me.  And Diamond is acquiring so many properties now that those fees are an unknown to me.  I recently got a match to a Branson resort and saw the disclosure that says, "There may be fees..." on my II exchange form.  I am going to trade that one away.  I am not going to pay extra fees in Branson or Orlando, the two easiest places to get Marriott.  If Marriott decides to follow suit and charge fees, we are all going to be complaining.


----------



## youppi

The main club of DRI is THE Club (old Sunterra Club), but DRI manage many others club from their acquisitions like:
Embarc + ExtraOrdinary Escapes https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/...mbarc_EE_Member_Benefits_Directory_Eng_11.pdf
Amber Vacation Club https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/Amber-Vacation-Club-Directory-2020-2021.pdf
Monarch Club Connection https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/mcc_latest_guide_0.pdf
Florida Club Connection https://cmstest.diamondresorts.com/...lorida-Club-Connection-Membership-Guide_0.pdf
Premier Club Connection https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/Premier-Club-Connection-Membership-Guide.pdf
California Club Connection https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/california_club_connection_directory.pdf


----------



## Tamaradarann

Tamaradarann said:


> I can understand your being turned off by the extra resort fees for exchangers into Hilton and Diamond Resorts.  As an outsider to Diamond Resorts presently I feel the same way.  However, I would assume that once they merge Hilton and Diamond owners would be able to exchange using their points without having to pay resort fees.
> 
> Since you don't own either company you would still need pay resort fees.


----------



## LEMONLEE

We own a deeded week at Kaanapali Beach Club and bought way back when it was branded as Embassy.  We were very disappointed when KBC was sold to Sunterra and not to Hilton, so this is the very best news that I can imagine.  As others have mentioned, the MF have increased steadily every year - we just paid $1664 for our 1 bdrm KBC unit.  We have not ever stayed in any other Diamond resorts, choosing to exchange through II instead of through Destination Exchange.  However, any time we called to deposit our week with II, Diamond would always try to sell us on joining Destination Exchange but we were never interested (just like we were never interested in throwing more money at them to convert to points no matter how hard they pushed).  Well, Diamond ended up giving us a free 5-year membership to Destination Exchange last year in what I guess was an effort to try to sell us on it, and I am finding that there is never any availability at any of the resorts I would be interested in going to - now from reading this thread, I understand it's because they are all affiliated resorts and not owned by Diamond.  Anyway, we have really been questioning the value of owning with Diamond so I am really hoping that KBC will be one of the resorts that is rebranded as HGVC and we will be able to have access to the Hilton properties.  Keeping my fingers crossed!


----------



## tpdgfmt

karibkeith said:


> As a non member pf HGVC, I cannot sign on in the hope of getting more details but to the extent that. I had access, I was not impressed with their website. I could not even find a list of properties


Karibkeith,

I Googled "hilton grand vacations list of properties" without signing on to HGVC's website and came up with this:








						Media Kit | Hilton Grand Vacations
					

Take video tours of vacation properties by Hilton Grand Vacations (HGV), a leading, global, vacation-ownership company headquartered in Orlando, Florida .




					www.hiltongrandvacations.com


----------



## RLS50

dougp26364 said:


> So here’s the quandary. Do you try to bring all DRI resorts up to HGVC standards or, have a different tier of ownership. Have you owned with DRI long enough to know what DRI’s choice was when they bought Sunterra out of bankruptcy? They choose to bring all the resorts up to DRI standards. Any idea what they did to MF’s? They skyrocketed overnight and kept climbing for a couple of years.


I was a Gold Key member when Diamond took over, and the maintenance fees definitely jumped very quickly.

However the biggest increase in the first 2-3 years (almost 10% each year for the first 2 years) wasn't for extra money to upgrade the resorts...it was to fund the jump to Diamond's management fee of 15% and their additional "Indirect Corporate Costs" line item.    Since then my biggest concern with Diamond has always been how much money they charged Owners for the combined Management / Indirect Corporate Costs (i.e. additional admin fees) as a percentage of our annual budget vs. other costs that might more benefit their owner experience.    Basically in addition to their 15% management fee, they charged close to another 10%-15% for those additional corporate back office admin fees.   That was close to 27%-30% of the Diamond annual budget right there.    Then added on top of this was the normal and expected Admin and Staffing fees required at each of the individual resorts.

The net result was that only about 10%-16% of the annual budget was being re-invested in Reserves (upgrades, remodels, refurbs, etc).   Compare that to many Marriott resorts, where the Management fee is only 10% and where up to 30% of the annual budget is slated for Reserves.

So as a Diamond owner I always felt that Diamond was extracting a somewhat nebulous extra 10%-15% of the annual budget for themselves that really didn't seem to add any material value for Owners.   That may not sound like a big deal, but compounded over time, year after year after year, etc...in my opinion that goes a long way in explaining why Diamond's standards and resort quality always seemed (or clearly was at some resorts) a level below the other majors (Marriott, Westin, Disney, Hilton, Hyatt, etc).   And I think this might help explain the main complaint on social media travel sites about Diamond properties was the "inconsistency" guests would experience depending on what unit they were assigned at Check in.

Having said that, I have over the years grown to appreciate the Operations side of Diamond a little more.  I do think Diamond has some very good Operations people at the Senior levels, and at the Resort GM levels, who try to manage the HOA's and properties pretty well.   Or at least as well as can be expected based on the annual budget percentages being worked with (i.e. Diamond's hefty corporate overhead charges vs what Reserves actually make it to the physical resort for improvements in any given year).


----------



## bakera

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, DIamond moved away from Interval International to start their own exchange. I beleive this is just to support their weeks based owners. They also have trust based point owners that trade internally using points.


The new system is for both weeks and points based owners.  We can, however, remain with II if we choose to pay their membership fee.


----------



## bakera

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Diamond tends to waive fees in tiers based on ownership as part of the sales program.  E.g., owners might not get charged an energy usage for the AC.  Silver members get a few freebies.  Gold members get more freebies, including free internet.  Platinum gets more benefits.


That was a few years ago when the tiers were first introduced.  They no longer nickel and dime lower tiers.  As Gold Elite members in DRI we get to choose our preferred unit when making the reservation and get early checkin/late checkout.


----------



## nuwermj

youppi said:


> The main club of DRI is THE Club (old Sunterra Club), but DRI manage many others club from their acquisitions like:
> Embarc + ExtraOrdinary Escapes https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/...mbarc_EE_Member_Benefits_Directory_Eng_11.pdf
> Amber Vacation Club https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/Amber-Vacation-Club-Directory-2020-2021.pdf
> Monarch Club Connection https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/mcc_latest_guide_0.pdf
> Florida Club Connection https://cmstest.diamondresorts.com/...lorida-Club-Connection-Membership-Guide_0.pdf
> Premier Club Connection https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/Premier-Club-Connection-Membership-Guide.pdf
> California Club Connection https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/california_club_connection_directory.pdf



Moreover, when DRI claims 400,000 members they included all these groups (only Embarc is sold as a current product) plus every deeded owner at all the DRI managed resorts. Membership in "THE Club" is 170,000.


----------



## Panina

The unknown won’t be known for awhile.  This is why I buy where I like going.  I do not have to worry when “things change”.  Hgvc self own affiliates that I own on Marco Island are a sure thing.


----------



## dougp26364

RLS50 said:


> I was a Gold Key member when Diamond took over, and the maintenance fees definitely jumped very quickly.
> 
> However the biggest increase in the first 2-3 years (almost 10% each year for the first 2 years) wasn't for extra money to upgrade the resorts...it was to fund the jump to Diamond's management fee of 15% and their additional "Indirect Corporate Costs" line item.    Since then my biggest concern with Diamond has always been how much money they charged Owners for the combined Management / Indirect Corporate Costs (i.e. additional admin fees) as a percentage of our annual budget vs. other costs that might more benefit their owner experience.    Basically in addition to their 15% management fee, they charged close to another 10%-15% for those additional corporate back office admin fees.   That was close to 27%-30% of the Diamond annual budget right there.    Then added on top of this was the normal and expected Admin and Staffing fees required at each of the individual resorts.
> 
> The net result was that only about 10%-16% of the annual budget was being re-invested in Reserves (upgrades, remodels, refurbs, etc).   Compare that to many Marriott resorts, where the Management fee is only 10% and where up to 30% of the annual budget is slated for Reserves.
> 
> So as a Diamond owner I always felt that Diamond was extracting a somewhat nebulous extra 10%-15% of the annual budget for themselves that really didn't seem to add any material value for Owners.   That may not sound like a big deal, but compounded over time, year after year after year, etc...in my opinion that goes a long way in explaining why Diamond's standards and resort quality always seemed (or clearly was at some resorts) a level below the other majors (Marriott, Westin, Disney, Hilton, Hyatt, etc).   And I think this might help explain the main complaint on social media travel sites about Diamond properties was the "inconsistency" guests would experience depending on what unit they were assigned at Check in.
> 
> Having said that, I have over the years grown to appreciate the Operations side of Diamond a little more.  I do think Diamond has some very good Operations people at the Senior levels, and at the Resort GM levels, who try to manage the HOA's and properties pretty well.   Or at least as well as can be expected based on the annual budget percentages being worked with (i.e. Diamond's hefty corporate overhead charges vs what Reserves actually make it to the physical resort for improvements in any given year).



You touched on the very reason we left DRI and kept HGVC (I was debating between the two). DRI’s management fees were hellish IMHO for the quality we received. If DRI quality matched their cost, we likely would have dropped HGVC.

Everyone has a big question on their minds about this merger. DRI owners are rightfully nervous not knowing the future. My question is, how does HGVC handle the management fees DRI was taking? Do they remain the same and leave the quality essentially as is? Do they lower them and make owners feel great about the new management? My vote would keep the MF’s as is for a few years, making DRI owners feel good about the acquisition, take the “normal” HGVC management fee and put the extra money (the difference between DRI’s higher management fee and HGVC lower management fee) to good use upgrading properties to Hilton standards.

Now having said all of this, I haven’t actually laid eyes on DRI’s management fees for a long time. Maybe there is no difference, or very little difference, today. 

There are two things I look forward too.

1. Reading all the rumors we hear from the sales people and TUGGERS over reaction to them(I’ve lived through one or two of these now).

2. Seeing what actually comes out for owners over the next five years.

I don’t look for any real movement between the two this year. In 2021 I expect to see some signage and branding changed along with the beginning of resort soft refurbishments (linens, we might start t see some signs of integration. After all, how long has it been since the Marriott/Westin acquisition and there still isn’t any real movement on true program integration for owners to book across brands.


----------



## eleigh

Bxian said:


> I find myself wondering if Diamond's online reservation system is any better than the horror that is HGVC's.....


Diamond's reservation system leaves much to be desired. For some properties you cannot even make on-line reservations and you must call to reserve or make changes.


----------



## dougp26364

eleigh said:


> Diamond's reservation system leaves much to be desired. For some properties you cannot even make on-line reservations and you must call to reserve or make changes.



And yet, maybe you haven’t tried HGVC’s version . 

I’ve used both. Neither is great, but I always had an easier time with DRI. BTW, you can’t book every HGVC property online either, unless things have changed in the last year or two.

For reference I recently needed to cancel a reservation with Marriott. I couldn’t do that online, you have to call. I don’t think there is such a thing as a perfect online system and I’ve learned to not to compare them. It’s an extra but not the most important benefit.


----------



## eleigh

Tamaradarann said:


> You should be able to continue to use your week like you always do or deposit it to RCI if that is your desire.  I would think that HGVC will give your unit some type of point value in the future.  Then you may be able to exchange it within the HGVC/HVC system if and when that is set up without going to RCI.  As far as buying it back your week, HGVC will most probably give you some credit for your Lake Tahoe Timeshare toward the purchase an HGVC Timeshare like they do with current HGVC members at owners updates.


Thank you.  Our DRI week is not fixed- we can book any week we want that is available (Christmas, 4th of July, etc). We have booked President's week for years, and that is usually a Diamond or Platinum with other companies.  Any idea how HGVC would assign value/points in this situation?


----------



## dayooper

dougp26364 said:


> And yet, maybe you haven’t tried HGVC’s version .
> 
> I’ve used both. Neither is great, but I always had an easier time with DRI. BTW, you can’t book every HGVC property online either, unless things have changed in the last year or two.
> 
> For reference I recently needed to cancel a reservation with Marriott. I couldn’t do that online, you have to call. I don’t think there is such a thing as a perfect online system and I’ve learned to not to compare them. It’s an extra but not the most important benefit.



@dougp26364 I have so appreciated your perspective on this merger. Your understanding of both systems and the differences between them has been great! I agree that the online reservation system is lacking. There are so many hidden quirks between the different resorts and there's always seems to be a bug in the system. I almost lost 2 days at Ocean Oak shuffling points because of the "quirks." I will say that a quick call to customer service fixed it right then and there. HGVC call-in center is usually very helpful.

I do believe that most, if not all of the resorts are available online. The SW Florida resorts are now bookable through the website (at least they were last September). Now, whether they are open to being booked is a different story.


----------



## dougp26364

dayooper said:


> @dougp26364 I have so appreciated your perspective on this merger. Your understanding of both systems and the differences between them has been great! I agree that the online reservation system is lacking. There are so many hidden quirks between the different resorts and there's always seems to be a bug in the system. I almost lost 2 days at Ocean Oak shuffling points because of the "quirks." I will say that a quick call to customer service fixed it right then and there. HGVC call-in center is usually very helpful.
> 
> I do believe that most, if not all of the resorts are available online. The SW Florida resorts are now bookable through the website (at least they were last September). Now, whether they are open to being booked is a different story.



To be honest, I really haven’t used HGVC’s system all that much for the last few years, so it doesn’t surprise me that they finally have the affiliated resorts available online. It was a long time coming.

I also haven’t used DRI’s system since 2015, I’m sure they had made changes in my absence.


----------



## nuwermj

dougp26364 said:


> I also haven’t used DRI’s system since 2015, I’m sure they had made changes in my absence.



Yes, an entirely new user-interface, but not much change in usability.


----------



## Talent312

dougp26364 said:


> And yet, maybe you haven’t tried HGVC’s version... Neither is great...



HGVC'ers like to whine about the glitches in website.
But they're often quite comical, and fixed fairly quickly...
Like when they listed member bookings in reverse chronological order.

If you call and say, "The website wouldn't let me..." They sigh and do it for you.
Perhaps the IT-peep mess with it intentionally, so they'll have work to do.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Compared to the two old confusing systems (they had to have two: Classic and ???), I have encountered very few problems with the new HGVC website.

I did have a problem recently when shuffling (some of my bHC points didn't go back into my account). When I called, the rep found the points and performed the entire shuffle for me to get all the points in the right place. Most of the reps are very good and are empowered to fix the problem.


----------



## jyt

CalGalTraveler said:


> Compared to the two old confusing systems (they had to have two: Classic and ???), I have encountered very few problems with the new HGVC website.
> 
> I did have a problem recently when shuffling (some of my bHC points didn't go back into my account). When I called, the rep found the points and performed the entire shuffle for me to get all the points in the right place. Most of the reps are very good and are empowered to fix the problem.



The two old systems were Classic and Revolution (flash based!)

Current website and app is much better.
When there are any issues, a short call to HGVC usually fixes it for no additional fee


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dougp26364

For me it’s a matter of comparing the HGVC site to others I use or have used. It’s functional, not bad, but not the not necessarily the best/easiest for my usage needs. Still, it’s far better than what Breckenridge Grand Vacations and Spinnaker Resorts offer their owners, which is essentially nothing as far as booking usage.


----------



## Tamaradarann

eleigh said:


> Thank you.  Our DRI week is not fixed- we can book any week we want that is available (Christmas, 4th of July, etc). We have booked President's week for years, and that is usually a Diamond or Platinum with other companies.  Any idea how HGVC would assign value/points in this situation?



In HGVC there are some event weeks which are more expensive to buy and are fixed weeks reserved for those owners with exchange privileges to points if the owner doesn't want to use the high priority week they bought.  In Hawaii they are Christmas and New Year's Week.  I believe in New York City it is Thankgiving Week due to the well known parade.  I have never heard of President's Week being an event week.

As far as HGVC assigning value/points to your week I don't know how they would evaluate it.  Originally HGVC made all resorts the same value 4800 points was a 1BR Platinum, 7000 points was a 2BR Platinum, 3400 points was a 1 BR Gold, 5000 points was a 2BR Gold.  Then they went to a much higher level point level for some newer resorts.  RCI has some system that they evaluate the value of resorts and seasons which may be the best indicator available until we learm more from HGVC about how DRI resorts will be valued versus HGVC resorts.


----------



## dougp26364

buzglyd said:


> This is interesting and I wonder what properties will be in the HGV system going forward?
> 
> I’ve stayed in a few Diamond properties. Some are really nice and some are meh.
> 
> Cabo Azul and Embarc Palm Desert are fantastic. I’d use my points for either one of those.



There are a couple we’re interested in, especially since we were once DRI owners and have some spent some time in them.
1. Sedona Summit is a very nice resort with a decent location. I’d love to have access back into this resort. 
2. The Point at Poipu and Kaui Beach Club will fir in nicely
3. The Lake Tahoe Resort has a nice location and use to be one of the Embassy Resorts
4. The Historic Crags Lodge in Estes Park would be great, but it really isn’t up to Hilton standards. It’s an OLD mountain lodge with a funky 1950’s lodge feel to it. It was like stepping back in time IMO.

Other resorts that will probably make the cut are the Polo Towers resorts (definitely a step below HGVC) and the other Vegas resorts they control, The Suites at Fall Creek in Branson and some of the Orlando resorts. I’m not certain. If any of the Gatlinburg resorts are fully managed by DRI. I know Gatlinburg Town Square is an affiliated resort with only some units available to DRI owners, but it always had decent availability when I was an owner and did searches. Those unit would need some serious upgrade to meet Hilton standards and, since DRI isn’t in control, I don’t see that happening. I think at least the Bent Creek Golf Resort was managed by DRI, but I’m not certain of the quality of the units. 

For the most part, I really want easier access than what I have now into Sedona. It’s the one thing I miss about being a DRI owner. We have great access at all the other locations, Maui, Kauai, Lake Tahoe and Branson. We’d really need to be in a position of needing to “burn” points before we gave serious consideration to those spots. The Historic Crags Lodge was always difficult to book with DRI as Silver Elite owners, and I don’t expect it to be any easier now, plus I’m not even certain it’s not an affiliate.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

tpdgfmt said:


> We will have to wait and see, but historically Hilton has been good to pre-existing owners of the resorts brought into the Club.  I am familiar with the SW Florida resorts which were part of Mariner.  Owners, whether pre-existing or new owners of weeks at those resorts have never been required to join the HGV Club.  The Mariner resorts typically were dual-affiliated with RCI and II, and as far as I know, they still maintain their dual affiliations.  Thus, an owner at any of those resorts can choose to join HGV Club, join RCI and/or II, join all three, or join none.  If an owner joins none, he or she pays only the maintenance fees set by the board at his or her resort and taxes imposed by the county in which it is located.
> 
> I am not familiar with other Hilton takeovers.  However, this morning I decided to learn what happened when Hilton took over operation of Elara.  Elara was previously known as PH (Planet Hollywood) Towers and was owned and marketed by Westgate Resorts before it ran into financial trouble during the Great Recession.  Westgate sold PH Towers to Resort Finance America LLC, which was a unit of Centerbridge Capital Partners, and RFA appointed HGV to market and manage the project.  The companies put out a news release which said, "The 12,000-plus existing timeshare owners of PH Towers Westgate will continue with full ownership rights and benefits associated with their original purchase from Westgate Resorts," according to the Las Vegas Sun newspaper's online Vegas Inc.
> 
> Perhaps there are some other TUG members who can provide information about other Hilton takeovers.  I think the opportunity for Hilton and Diamond in this combination is to retain revenues from sales of new projects, resales at resorts where they are appointed to be the resale agent, and management fees from resorts that the combined Hilton/Diamond manages, while cutting duplicative costs and expenses so that the overall enterprise is more profitable than the two separate enterprises were.  As far as raising maintenance fees at individual resorts, Hilton cannot do that without convincing the boards of directors at those individual resorts to do so, and if it does, the money from those maintenance fees (except for Hilton's own management fee paid by the resort) have to stay with the resort and be used for the benefit of the resort.  The boards of those resorts likely have contracts for resort management with Diamond which Hilton will now be performing in Diamond's place.  If the boards of those resorts had any brains when they entered into those contracts, the contracts probably eventually expire or could be terminated if Diamond's (and now Hilton's) management services are unsatisfactory.  Hilton isn't going to want that.
> 
> One thing I haven't mentioned so far is the trust that Diamond uses for its club.  I have never seen it.  I would speculate that it says something like, "you place your week into the trust so that we (Diamond) are the owner of that week, but we promise to give you weeks, points, or some other measure of time in the resorts which are part of this trust."  What could Diamond, and now Hilton, do with this trust?  Dissolve it?  Why would they want to do that?  It sounds like the fees Diamond is charging its members who are members of this trust include fees that go to Diamond (and soon, Hilton).  Hilton isn't going to cut off its nose to spite its face.  I could see that Hilton might try to find a way for Diamond trust members to get access to HGVC resorts, and if that happens, HGVC members will probably get corresponding access to the resorts in Diamond's trust.  If that does happen, I would not anticipate HGVC members overwhelming the trust with reservations for Diamond resorts.  First, there are a lot more Diamond members than there are Hilton members.  More importantly, my own experience has been that Hilton gives up points in its club (which translate into some type of usage in one of its resorts, depending on size, time of year, etc) if an affiliate owner chooses to exchange his or her week for points.  The affiliate owner gets HGVC points, and the affiliate owner's week then shows up in HGVC's system as available to a Hilton owner for a certain amount of points.  There has never been any mass taking of anything away from owners in resorts "taken over" by Hilton.  But this is my own complete speculation, having never read any of Diamond's documents.
> 
> Hilton's email to its members states in relevant part, "I want to assure you that your ownership rights and access to your Home Resort will not be changed or diluted. . . . Integrating the two companies is anticipated to be a multi-year, phased initiative, which means you may not hear about expanded offerings or benefits immediately."  Later, in the same email, Hilton states, "Together, we will provide the broadest range of offerings with a wider array of price points – *a new HGV sub-brand to complement our existing Hilton Grand Vacations and By Hilton Club brands*." (Emphasis added)   Once again, I believe Hilton's statements.  What is available to you and what is available to me is not changing any time soon, and when it does change, Hilton is looking to expand offerings, not take them away.  They are not looking to upset the apple cart.
> 
> I bought into HGVC 20 years ago this year.  At that time, the "news" in the industry was that Hilton, Marriott, Starwood, Disney, and several others were changing the timeshare game drastically by being fairer to customers.  Here's a typical statement from a newspaper article in 2008:  "Virtually all investments look bad these days, but some pretty big names want you to reconsider one of the most maligned of all: the timeshare.  High pressure tactics and deceptive costs have given timeshares a mixed reputation.  But companies including Disney, Marriott, Hyatt, Starwood and Hilton dominate the industry, offering new perks and better value."  I believe that Hilton has done this over the years.  I haven't seen anything about its combination with Diamond that indicates it is changing this philosophy.
> 
> The last thing I can think of is fees.  Hilton has not been considered to have outrageous fees.  Its fees are generally less than Marriott's or Disney's.  Diamond has been alleged to have high fees, although the comments from many of you Diamond owners is that Diamond's fees aren't that bad.  With a new HGV sub-brand, it seems likely that the fee structure that Diamond uses now isn't going to change right away.  Perhaps it will never change.  If and when it does change, Hilton's charges now are (1) resort maintenance fees and taxes, (2) an annual club fee, and (3) reservation fees (except for various levels of Elite owners, who avoid these fees by owning enough weeks/points) to qualify.  It sounds like Diamond builds some of these fees into one fee, so there aren't separate fees.  If Hilton changes the way that fees are charged, I doubt the overall amount of fees will increase, although some people's fees might be more and some people's fees less, depending on how they vacation.
> 
> The more I look at this, the more I can see good possibilities coming from it.  Hilton is telling us this, also.  Our inclination as customers is never to believe what a timeshare company says, and for good reason, but I think Hilton's actions over the years show that it does do, and wants to do, a good job for its resort owners.



I appreciate your input. As a Platinum owner with Diamond, from my perspective, I see no added benefit and only the possibility of loss. The best Diamond owners can hope for is to not lose the benefits we currently have that are, IMO, better than HGVC. We can book a minimum 2 night stay (so doing a weekend stay is possible), we pay no exchange fees for internal exchanges no matter what level the member is, we can roll our points to the next year free of charge, we can get 50% off the point cost of a stay at 59 or 30 days proir to check in depending on resort and length of stay, and other benefits. Hilton's maint fees may be less in and of themselves but with the ability to nickel and dime it's owners it seems to me, based upon the level a member is, you may be paying more than a Diamond owner. There are very few places that Hilton has a resort where we do not also have a resort (DC is the only location I can think of in my skimming of the Hilton location list). IMO, if we did have access to those Hilton locations it would probably cost an arm and a leg. Also, would I retain my Platinum status that I paid dearly for? Probably not but again, who knows? I guess my biggest gripe with this whole thing is the lack of information. Who makes a purchase without a plan of what's going to happen with the purchase and if they have a plan, why hasn't it been communicated? The less I hear, the more that is speculated and not in a good way. For you, you know what you bought into and you know your system isn't changing. Diamond owners know what we bought into and are afraid it will change.


----------



## dayooper

dougp26364 said:


> There are a couple we’re interested in, especially since we were once DRI owners and have some spent some time in them.
> 1. Sedona Summit is a very nice resort with a decent location. I’d love to have access back into this resort.
> 2. The Point at Poipu and Kaui Beach Club will fir in nicely
> 3. The Lake Tahoe Resort has a nice location and use to be one of the Embassy Resorts
> 4. The Historic Crags Lodge in Estes Park would be great, but it really isn’t up to Hilton standards. It’s an OLD mountain lodge with a funky 1950’s lodge feel to it. It was like stepping back in time IMO.
> 
> Other resorts that will probably make the cut are the Polo Towers resorts (definitely a step below HGVC) and the other Vegas resorts they control, The Suites at Fall Creek in Branson and some of the Orlando resorts. I’m not certain. If any of the Gatlinburg resorts are fully managed by DRI. I know Gatlinburg Town Square is an affiliated resort with only some units available to DRI owners, but it always had decent availability when I was an owner and did searches. Those unit would need some serious upgrade to meet Hilton standards and, since DRI isn’t in control, I don’t see that happening. I think at least the Bent Creek Golf Resort was managed by DRI, but I’m not certain of the quality of the units.
> 
> For the most part, I really want easier access than what I have now into Sedona. It’s the one thing I miss about being a DRI owner. We have great access at all the other locations, Maui, Kauai, Lake Tahoe and Branson. We’d really need to be in a position of needing to “burn” points before we gave serious consideration to those spots. The Historic Crags Lodge was always difficult to book with DRI as Silver Elite owners, and I don’t expect it to be any easier now, plus I’m not even certain it’s not an affiliate.



Bent Creek Golf and Sunrise Ridge Resort are the only non-affiliated resorts in Tennessee. Not sure of the quality of those, but they are pure Diamond. I have heard talk of a resort in Virginia Beach as maybe being close to HGVC standards. There are a lot of pure DRI resorts in Virginia. Having more drivable locations (I live in Michigan) would be a plus

I took a peek at the Cabos resort and it looks like an HGVC resort already (at least the pictures do). I would love to have access to that resort. 2 locations in Los Cabos would be great! Ka'anapoli and Point at Poipu look like great locations and should be able to be brought up to HGVC standards as well. The Modern looks like a Diamond version of a bHC property. Lake Tahoe would be fun as well. 
.
My big hope is that HGVC treats the existing DRI members well and keeps their basic system in place. There will be changes, but if how they treat HGVC members is any indication, they will most definitely not throw existing DRI owners to the wayside. HGVC treats its members very well and I expect they will do the same for the DRI owners as well. An internal exchange system between the two might be a way to keep things on the level.


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## Fried_shrimp

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> That's true, but you also need to consider what you are paying in points to book at that affiliate.
> 
> We are members in Raintree Vacation Club, which is also a DRI affiliate.  So I can see what it costs me in Raintree to book at one of their resorts (say Club Regina Puerto Vallarta) vs. making the same booking using DRI points.
> 
> Converting the DRI and Raintree points required to $ based on maintenance fees - I would pay more for a one-bedroom unit booking it through DRI than I would pay for a 2-bedroom unit for the same period booking through my Raintree account.
> 
> Just for fun one time, I used a similar comparison to compare what it would cost me to stay at a Great Wolf Lodge using DRI points as compared with just booking it as an ordinary guest. It was significantly more expensive to burn my DRI points as Great Wolf than to just book directly with Great Wolf.
> 
> So when I've mucked around, I've concluded that the affiliate resorts don't really offer value.  As I've posted elsewhere, the primary reason they exist is so that DRI can put more dots on the map. The only time I would seriously consider staying at an affiliate resort is if I had points that were going to expire at the end of the year and I couldn't roll them over, so I was faced with salvaging whatever value I could before they became worthless.



It depends on the affiliate. Yes, there are some affiliates I would never book with my Diamond points as the cost of the points spent (in maint fees) is astronomical. But not all affiliates are that way. I have stayed at some night affiliates through Diamond that cost no more than booking a normal Diamond resort (Gatling Town Square and Coconut Palms II in New Smyrna Beach come to mind).


----------



## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> I guess my biggest gripe with this whole thing is the lack of information. Who makes a purchase without a plan of what's going to happen with the purchase and if they have a plan, why hasn't it been communicated? The less I hear, the more that is speculated and not in a good way. For you, you know what you bought into and you know your system isn't changing. Diamond owners know what we bought into and are afraid it will change.



I absolutely understand your feelings on this. When the merger was looking like it was going the other way, I felt very uncertain as well. Give it time. The merger between Marriott and Vistana took how long to get things put in place and communicated?


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> Can you get platinum status as a resale owner or did you have purchase from Diamond directly?
> 
> I hope you get to keep your status and booking privileges.



Status only comes with purchasing from the developer. They are what we call "clean" points. Dirty points are resale points and have no status or benefits with them. We used to (maybe still do) have the ability to clean up dirty points by making a purchase of clean points the equaled at least 50% of the dirty points (clean 10,000 dirty points by purchasing 5,000 clean points and ending up with 15,000 clean points).

I truly hope that we get to keep our status and booking privileges as well. Personally, I don't care who takes my maint fees each year as long as I get to continue enjoying what I bought. If we lose our status or force us into HGVC's rules though, that isn't what we, as Diamond owners, bought and I believe HGVC will see a large exodus of Diamond owners.


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## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> I absolutely understand your feelings on this. When the merger was looking like it was going the other way, I felt very uncertain as well. Give it time. The merger between Marriott and Vistana took how long to get things put in place and communicated?



Thank you.


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## Fried_shrimp

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I don't know to what extent you are counting on DRI for that statement, but the DRI only operates resorts in the US, Mexico, and Europe.  Dots on their map in other continents are not DRI resorts - they are simply affiliates with whom DRI swaps a little bit of inventory.



Diamond owns 2 resorts in the Caribbean in St Marteen. Granted they have been closed for 3 years due to Irma but one just opened back up on 10 March and the other should open soon.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Maybe HGVC will overhaul its Elite program.  While I am entry Level Elite, by accidental circumstance, I think the perks are pretty paltry.  The only one I use and like is the 7 night free booking, during club season, at any resort.

Compared to Wyndham and what it sound like with DRI perks, there are a lot more and are way more flexible.


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## Fried_shrimp

CalGalTraveler said:


> This is helpful but we need translation. For Diamond, what would one week in a  2 BDRM Ocean view in Hawaii cost per year?



Well, I don't think that can really translate well. In Maui, the KBC only has 4 2bdrm units and I don't think any of them are ocean front. For Point @ Poipu, all units are 2 bdrm and I believe the ocean front units go for about 12,000 points for a week. At a Platinum rate of 18.4 cent per point (2021) in maint fees, that would work out to about $2,208 for the week. Hopefully that helps.


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## Fried_shrimp

escanoe said:


> I give @dougp26364 credit for the smartest post on this thread. I do not expect it, but I would also like to have the flexibility to use my HGVC points to affordably exchange into Diamond.
> 
> I have my first exchange (RCI Points) into a Diamond resort coming up this June. It is to the the Beachwoods at Kitty Hawk NC for a long weekend after the kids finish school for the year. It is not a horrible exchange value, but comes with the $29.95 daily resort fee (on top of the short stay $65 cleaning fee for a 2BR). I get people complaining about the resort fee for HGVC trades on RCI, but in this case it involves a Silver Crown RCI resort with 3 & 1/2 circles on TripAdvisor. We don't mind paying extra this time because we want to get away from people (Outer Banks versus Virginia Beach) more during COVID and there is a novelty to trying the place.  Moving forward, I do not see many exchanges into Diamond for me unless it becomes a better value for our family to trade in through HGVC.
> 
> And while I complain about the fees, my June trip is still an affordable trip compared to paying for a hotel or resort there in cash, but there are certainly better trades to be made on RCI ... just not one I could execute for that exact area at that time.



The Beachwoods is a nice resort. I have stayed there several times. Large indoor swimming complex, nice size units, private parking at the beach (the resort itself is not on the beach), and it's right behind a Walmart for easy shopping (no, you cannot see the Walmart from the resort). Easy drive to Currituck Lighthouse, Wright Brothers Memorial, Duck, NC (home of Duck Donuts), and about an hour away from Cape Hatteras Lighthouse. Hope you enjoy your stay.


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## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> A question for @dougp26364 @T_R_Oglodyte and anybody else that might want to take a wild guess: How hard would it be to pull certain resorts out of the DRI Trust? If HGVC wanted to rebrand a few of the Diamond properties into HGVC resorts, could they just pull them out? I'm not familiar enough with a trust product to know if there are restrictions to what HGVC/Diamond can and can't do.



IMO, it would be illegal to do so. It might be possible to pull a resort out if a different resort would be put in it's place but I know of no way to rip a trust apart and then pick over the pieces. That was the reason the trust was created to begin with.


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## Fried_shrimp

CalGalTraveler said:


> The complaint about the res fees appear to be irrelevant. The total cost is what matters. From what I have seen thus far, the costs for HGVC in Hawaii for a 2bdrm run in the $1800 - $2000 range similar to Point at Poipu.  I believe the Big Island properties for HGVC maint are less - around $1400 - $1770 depending on the unit. The HGVC unit quality is higher for about the same total cost as DRI.
> 
> For the points system. How many DRI points are needed to get a 2 bdrm in Hawaii and how much does that cost overall per week?
> 
> FWIW...I am delighted that we will be getting options in Kauai, Sedona, Cabo and Lake Tahoe. I hope they make it cost effective to trade otherwise we'll just live with what we've got. We have properties in both Vistana and HGVC so we are getting the best of both worlds.



Reservation fees are hardly irrelevant. One of the biggest reasons I converted from my fixed/floating weeks to points was due to the rising costs of reservations fees with RCI/II. Also, most Diamond members don't book a week stay. Many (including myself) book many, many weekends (due to still working and being close enough to drive to multiple Diamond resorts). Multiply 15 weekends a year plus a few week or longer stays times $59 a booking and you're looking at some serious money in reservation fees. Just because reservation fees are irrelevant to you doesn't make them irrelevant to everyone else.


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## escanoe

@Fried_shrimp Does Diamond charge cleaning fees for short stays? That can get expensive some places with RCI. 



Fried_shrimp said:


> Reservation fees are hardly irrelevant. One of the biggest reasons I converted from my fixed/floating weeks to points was due to the rising costs of reservations fees with RCI/II. Also, most Diamond members don't book a week stay. Many (including myself) book many, many weekends (due to still working and being close enough to drive to multiple Diamond resorts). Multiply 15 weekends a year plus a few week or longer stays times $59 a booking and you're looking at some serious money in reservation fees. Just because reservation fees are irrelevant to you doesn't make them irrelevant to everyone else.


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## Fried_shrimp

escanoe said:


> I Generally like HGVC management, but seems like a bit too much elitism from the CEO, "It'll allow us to attract customers, higher-quality customers than Diamond was able to attract."
> 
> Any of you Diamond owners thinking about the transition to HGV offended? Wonder how they talk about us resale buyers behind our back?



Are we offended? No, business is business. We are just hoping we can still utilize what we have the way we have been doing so. I can say, on the site I run for Diamond owners on FB that not a single member has talked about the joys of being able to go to an HGVC resort or paying more to become a full blown HGVC member so it's not like we're falling in love with y'all but we aren't offended either. Stunned would be more correct.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Fried_shrimp said:


> Diamond owns 2 resorts in the Caribbean in St Marteen. Granted they have been closed for 3 years due to Irma but one just opened back up on 10 March and the other should open soon.


Correct.  I overlooked the two Sint Maarten resorts.


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Fried_shrimp said:


> Reservation fees are hardly irrelevant. One of the biggest reasons I converted from my fixed/floating weeks to points was due to the rising costs of reservations fees with RCI/II. Also, most Diamond members don't book a week stay. Many (including myself) book many, many weekends (due to still working and being close enough to drive to multiple Diamond resorts). Multiply 15 weekends a year plus a few week or longer stays times $59 a booking and you're looking at some serious money in reservation fees. Just because reservation fees are irrelevant to you doesn't make them irrelevant to everyone else.


People should also be aware that in the Diamond system, a 7-day stay with check-in/-out on Friday or Saturday will require fewer points than a 7-day with check-in any other day of the week.   The "week" rate in the charts only applies to those check-in days.


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## Fried_shrimp

escanoe said:


> This is the thing I don’t get about Diamond’s Destination Exchange, It says at this time you must have a Diamond managed resort to enroll? So it does not seem like as much of a marketing opportunity as it could be.
> 
> Yet, the destinations you can exchange into looks a fair amount like RCI. I see Wyndham properties and Vacation Village. How do they truly “exchange” for these if it is just Diamond customers/resorts doing all the trading? [Maybe they are exchanging for you through another exchange company?]
> 
> @CalGalTraveler, their exchange rates look quite competitive versus RCI. Less so for short stay exchanges compared to RCI Points.
> 
> 
> 
> https://cmsprod.diamondresorts.com/sites/default/files/destination-xchange-member-guide_2.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure Diamond (now HGVC) is early in building this out and will have grander plans.
> 
> I definitely think people exchanging in is a big marketing thing. Club Wyndham really wants to market to me every time I stay there. I assume they know something abt me from their owning RCI.  They probably view having HGVC in their network as a big marketing opportunity for them and a selling point to attract other resorts to affiliate with RCI.
> 
> I have to think HGVC also sees people exchanging in as a marketing opportunity. If not, why the 1 in three rule? Fresh meat for sales.
> 
> I don’t doubt the big boys have a much better marketing program that the smaller ones and that smaller ones are likely more dependent on exchangers coming in.



DEX (Destination Exchange) was not meant for outside timeshares to utilize. When it was created about 6-8 years ago, it was for the legacy week owners at Diamond resorts to use instead of RCI/II. Only 2.5 months ago did it open up with point owners when Diamond cancelled our affiliation with II. That is why it states the requirements to be an owner at a Diamond managed resort. It wasn't really an effort to compete with RCI/II. Most of the listings in DEX are RCI based.


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## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> Status only comes with purchasing from the developer. They are what we call "clean" points. Dirty points are resale points and have no status or benefits with them. We used to (maybe still do) have the ability to clean up dirty points by making a purchase of clean points the equaled at least 50% of the dirty points (clean 10,000 dirty points by purchasing 5,000 clean points and ending up with 15,000 clean points).
> 
> I truly hope that we get to keep our status and booking privileges as well. Personally, I don't care who takes my maint fees each year as long as I get to continue enjoying what I bought. If we lose our status or force us into HGVC's rules though, that isn't what we, as Diamond owners, bought and I believe HGVC will see a large exodus of Diamond owners.



One of the great aspects of HGVC is resale purchases. I am a fully resale member and, with the exception of Elite Status, my membership is no different from any other member. I have the same booking windows and rights as someone who bought all of their deeds from HGVC. As @Sandy VDH says above, most of the Elite perks are pretty paltry. Could that change? Sure, but it would reduce the value the developer bought deeds.


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## Fried_shrimp

Bxian said:


> I find myself wondering if Diamond's online reservation system is any better than the horror that is HGVC's.....



I have absolutely no problem with Diamond's old reservation system. The new one though looks horrible (becuase some thought it needed changing). The weird thing is the two platforms are still being run simultaneously. On a phone, only the new version can be accessed. On a computer, some folks (such as myself) can still access the old one.


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## Fried_shrimp

Zenichiro said:


> I have my doubts but I am hoping for access to Great wolf lodge. Anyone know if they come with the deal?



Great Wolf Lodges were only affiliates for Diamond. And very expensive affiliates at that.


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## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> The new system is for both weeks and points based owners.  We can, however, remain with II if we choose to pay their membership fee.



Actually, it's an older system updated to add points owners 01 Jan 2021. Yes, members can stay with II if they pay their own membership fee now.


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## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> Bent Creek Golf and Sunrise Ridge Resort are the only non-affiliated resorts in Tennessee. Not sure of the quality of those, but they are pure Diamond. I have heard talk of a resort in Virginia Beach as maybe being close to HGVC standards. There are a lot of pure DRI resorts in Virginia. Having more drivable locations (I live in Michigan) would be a plus
> 
> I took a peek at the Cabos resort and it looks like an HGVC resort already (at least the pictures do). I would love to have access to that resort. 2 locations in Los Cabos would be great! Ka'anapoli and Point at Poipu look like great locations and should be able to be brought up to HGVC standards as well. The Modern looks like a Diamond version of a bHC property. Lake Tahoe would be fun as well.
> .
> My big hope is that HGVC treats the existing DRI members well and keeps their basic system in place. There will be changes, but if how they treat HGVC members is any indication, they will most definitely not throw existing DRI owners to the wayside. HGVC treats its members very well and I expect they will do the same for the DRI owners as well. An internal exchange system between the two might be a way to keep things on the level.



Oceaniare is the fancy (expensive) resort in Virginia Beach that you are referring to.

I LOVE Bent Creek. Is it fancy, no. Is it relaxing, absolutely. And if you book a Golf Deluxe unit you have great views of the mountain across the golf course. You can allso holler "hey batter batter" at the golfers. LOL

I have the exact same hopes as you do.


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## Fried_shrimp

escanoe said:


> @Fried_shrimp Does Diamond charge cleaning fees for short stays? That can get expensive some places with RCI.



No. No cleaning fees at all unless you want extra cleanings during a stay. To note: This is for point owners staying at a Diamond resort on a Diamond reservation.


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## Fried_shrimp

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> People should also be aware that in the Diamond system, a 7-day stay with check-in/-out on Friday or Saturday will require fewer points than a 7-day with check-in any other day of the week.   The "week" rate in the charts only applies to those check-in days.



Friday, Saturday, and Sunday check ins have normal weekly costs. Mon-Thur check in dates have a 10% premium for checking in on a "non-standard" day. Didn't use to be like that though (a recent.....last 5 years.....change). For nightly rates, Sun-Thur is 10% of the weekly rate and Fri and Sat are 30% of the weekly rate (also a change....originally Fri & Sat were 25% of the weekly rate which worked out to the correct 100% of the week.....then they decided more people were doing weekends and boosted it to 30%).


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## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> One of the great aspects of HGVC is resale purchases. I am a fully resale member and, with the exception of Elite Status, my membership is no different from any other member. I have the same booking windows and rights as someone who bought all of their deeds from HGVC. As @Sandy VDH says above, most of the Elite perks are pretty paltry. Could that change? Sure, but it would reduce the value the developer bought deeds.



Booking windows are not based on status in Diamond (other than the relatively new privilege for Platinum owners that added a month). Every point owner has a 13 month booking window in collection and 10 month out of collection (14 and 11 for Plats) no matter the status and dirty or clean points. The Club (clean points) is for other benefits such as upgrades, early check in, guest certificates, selecting specific units, being able to book across collections, and some other stuff. A clean point owner can book in any collection. A dirty point owner can only book in the collection they own in. If you own in the Latino Collection, looks like you'll be going to Cabo every year. If you own dirty points in the US Collection though you've still got about 55 resorts you can book in. And because we own in a trust, we don't have deeded weeks assigned. We just have points in the trust.

This is the latest Diamond Loyalty List that shows perks based on status.


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## JIMinNC

Fried_shrimp said:


> Well, I don't think that can really translate well. In Maui, the KBC only has 4 2bdrm units and I don't think any of them are ocean front. For Point @ Poipu, all units are 2 bdrm and I believe the ocean front units go for about 12,000 points for a week. At a Platinum rate of 18.4 cent per point (2021) in maint fees, that would work out to about $2,208 for the week. Hopefully that helps.



One correction...KBC actually has sixteen 2BR units. Four each on floors 8-9 are part of one room category and then four more on both floors 3-4, I believe, were sold as another room category.  Owners on 8-9 can't book the ones on 3-4 and vice versa. They also have, I think, one or two larger Presidential Suites that are also 2BR. We bought a 2BR in the floor 8-9 group back in 1998 when it was the Embassy Vacation Resort. We sold our unit in 2014 after we bought into the Marriott Vacation Club program. Here is a diagram of floor 8, with floor 9 being identical. I think the floor 3-4 units are also basically laid out the same.





The 16 2BR units have wrap-around lanais and all of the floor 8-9 units have at least a small ocean view. In our years of ownership we stayed in 824, 834, and 839. Units 829/929 and 834/934 are mainly mountain view from the long side of the lanai, but they do have a view of the ocean from the shorter side. 824/924 and 839/929 basically have full ocean views, but aren't classified as ocean front because they are in the stack farthest back from the beach. The units on floors 3-4 would have essentially the same views, but being much lower, would be less impressive and perhaps partially blocked by trees. Here are a few pics from floor 8:

1) First, the views from the long and short side of the lanai of unit 834.

Long side view:




Shorter side:




2) Second, the views from the long and short side of unit 839.

Long side:




Shorter side:



Note: This last shot was taken with a zoom lens in 2005, prior to the construction of the Honua Kai condos. That is the Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas on the other side of the open land  in the photo.


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## gjw007

Fried_shrimp said:


> Well, I don't think that can really translate well. In Maui, the KBC only has 4 2bdrm units and I don't think any of them are ocean front. For Point @ Poipu, all units are 2 bdrm and I believe the ocean front units go for about 12,000 points for a week. At a Platinum rate of 18.4 cent per point (2021) in maint fees, that would work out to about $2,208 for the week. Hopefully that helps.


I have a map of kbc.  There are 16 2-bedroom units.  4 units on floors 3, 4, 8, and 9.  None of them are ocean front


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## Fried_shrimp

JIMinNC said:


> One correction...KBC actually has sixteen 2BR units. Four each on floors 8-9 are part of one room category and then four more on both floors 3-4, I believe, were sold as another room category.  Owners on 8-9 can't book the ones on 3-4 and vice versa. They also have, I think, one or two larger Presidential Suites that are also 2BR. We bought a 2BR in the floor 8-9 group back in 1998 when it was the Embassy Vacation Resort. We sold our unit in 2014 after we bought into the Marriott Vacation Club program. Here is a diagram of floor 8, with floor 9 being identical. I think the floor 3-4 units are also basically laid out the same.
> 
> View attachment 33464
> 
> The 16 2BR units have wrap-around lanais and all of the floor 8-9 units have at least a small ocean view. In our years of ownership we stayed in 824, 834, and 839. Units 829/929 and 834/934 are mainly mountain view from the long side of the lanai, but they do have a view of the ocean from the shorter side. 824/924 and 839/929 basically have full ocean views, but aren't classified as ocean front because they are in the stack farthest back from the beach. The units on floors 3-4 would have essentially the same views, but being much lower, would be less impressive and perhaps partially blocked by trees. Here are a few pics from floor 8:
> 
> 1) First, the views from the long and short side of the lanai of unit 834.
> 
> Long side view:
> View attachment 33465
> 
> Shorter side:
> View attachment 33466
> 
> 2) Second, the views from the long and short side of unit 839.
> 
> Long side:
> View attachment 33467
> 
> Shorter side:
> View attachment 33468
> Note: This last shot was taken with a zoom lens in 2005, prior to the construction of the Honua Kai condos. That is the Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas on the other side of the open land  in the photo.



Thank you for the correction. I have only been to the KBC one time and am not in the Hawaii Collection so my knowledge of the KBC is limited to what I have read from others and from my experience in a 1 bdrm deluxe unit.


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## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> I appreciate your input. As a Platinum owner with Diamond, from my perspective, I see no added benefit and only the possibility of loss. The best Diamond owners can hope for is to not lose the benefits we currently have that are, IMO, better than HGVC. We can book a minimum 2 night stay (so doing a weekend stay is possible), we pay no exchange fees for internal exchanges no matter what level the member is, we can roll our points to the next year free of charge, we can get 50% off the point cost of a stay at 59 or 30 days proir to check in depending on resort and length of stay, and other benefits. Hilton's maint fees may be less in and of themselves but with the ability to nickel and dime it's owners it seems to me, based upon the level a member is, you may be paying more than a Diamond owner. There are very few places that Hilton has a resort where we do not also have a resort (DC is the only location I can think of in my skimming of the Hilton location list). IMO, if we did have access to those Hilton locations it would probably cost an arm and a leg. Also, would I retain my Platinum status that I paid dearly for? Probably not but again, who knows? I guess my biggest gripe with this whole thing is the lack of information. Who makes a purchase without a plan of what's going to happen with the purchase and if they have a plan, why hasn't it been communicated? The less I hear, the more that is speculated and not in a good way. For you, you know what you bought into and you know your system isn't changing. Diamond owners know what we bought into and are afraid it will change.



Your post expresses similar feeling that which many HGVC owners had when there was talk that HGVC was going to be bought by the company that owns Diamond Resorts.  I believe owners of both systems are familiar with their own system and like what they have.  That is why I believe that what Mark Wang said about the acquisition is important to both HGVC and Diamond Resort Members:

The impression that I got from Mark Wang is that they will NOT be intergrating Diamond Resorts into HGVC. They will have a slightly lower brand name for Diamond Resorts HVC(Hilton Vacation Club).  Therefore, the exchange privileges would be different into HGVC resorts if you own HVC and into HVC resorts if you own HGVC.   I am not sure that would be but both systems have a period that ranges from 13/12 months to 10/9 months that only owners of a resort can make reservations.(Resort Reservation Period)  That should stay the same.  After the resort owners reservation period ends, reservations could be made for any of the resorts in the club that you own,(Club Resrvation Period).  Perhaps at the 3 month or 6 month mark of the Club Reservation Period owners of either the HGVC or HVC might have access to make reservations at the club that they don't own.  I believe that would be workable for both HGVC and Diamond Resort Owners.


Quote Reply
Report


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## T_R_Oglodyte

Fried_shrimp said:


> Friday, Saturday, and Sunday check ins have normal weekly costs. Mon-Thur check in dates have a 10% premium for checking in on a "non-standard" day. Didn't use to be like that though (a recent.....last 5 years.....change). For nightly rates, Sun-Thur is 10% of the weekly rate and Fri and Sat are 30% of the weekly rate (also a change....originally Fri & Sat were 25% of the weekly rate which worked out to the correct 100% of the week.....then they decided more people were doing weekends and boosted it to 30%).


In at least some resorts it also has to do with inventory control.  At Po'ipu, for example, all inventory is held in one-week blocks. So when a reservation spans across those weekend checkin days, fulfilling the reservation requires partial inventory from two of those week blocks.  When someone else comes along and makes a reservation, then they need to know what remainder(s) is getting assigned to that reservation.  The system works much easier, and leaves fewer one-or-two day gaps, when check-in/out occurs on the weekends.


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## GT75

Tamaradarann said:


> Your post expresses similar feeling that which many HGVC owners had when there was talk that HGVC was going to be bought by the company that owns Diamond Resorts. I believe owners of both systems are familiar with their own system and like what they have. That is why I believe that what Mark Wang said about the acquisition is important to both HGVC and Diamond Resort Members:
> 
> The impression that I got from Mark Wang is that they will NOT be intergrating Diamond Resorts into HGVC. They will have a slightly lower brand name for Diamond Resorts HVC(Hilton Vacation Club). Therefore, the exchange privileges would be different into HGVC resorts if you own HVC and into HVC resorts if you own HGVC. I am not sure that would be but both systems have a period that ranges from 13/12 months to 10/9 months that only owners of a resort can make reservations.(Resort Reservation Period) That should stay the same. After the resort owners reservation period ends, reservations could be made for any of the resorts in the club that you own,(Club Resrvation Period). Perhaps at the 3 month or 6 month mark of the Club Reservation Period owners of either the HGVC or HVC might have access to make reservations at the club that they don't own. I believe that would be workable for both HGVC and Diamond Resort Owners.


I think that @Tamaradarann has summed up my thoughts on this merger.   I am first going to wait for the announcement of the new management team of the combined company.    I know that the HGV members are expecting a certain team but I will wait to see.    I am glad that @Fried_shrimp and other Diamond owners like their ownership.    That is very comforting to me.   Honestly, I am happy with HGVC now and really *don't need *additional resorts (in fact I don't see myself visiting some of the new resorts being added now into HGVC due to the high point requirements).    I also have the resorts that I love.   I wouldn't mind having some crossover between the two systems (including the old Intrawest system) to add a little occasional variety.


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## bakera

Fried_shrimp said:


> Status only comes with purchasing from the developer. They are what we call "clean" points. Dirty points are resale points and have no status or benefits with them. We used to (maybe still do) have the ability to clean up dirty points by making a purchase of clean points the equaled at least 50% of the dirty points (clean 10,000 dirty points by purchasing 5,000 clean points and ending up with 15,000 clean points).
> 
> I truly hope that we get to keep our status and booking privileges as well. Personally, I don't care who takes my maint fees each year as long as I get to continue enjoying what I bought. If we lose our status or force us into HGVC's rules though, that isn't what we, as Diamond owners, bought and I believe HGVC will see a large exodus of Diamond owners.


Not true.  “Dirty” points do earn status, it’s just that you cannot use them for any of the worthless additions that they’ve introduced in recent years (such as cruises, flights or hotel stays).  We started our journey with DRI back when it was the Grand Vacation Club (prior to Sunterra taking over) with 5000 points.  Those are the only points we ever bought from the developer but have increased our ownership to 31000 by buying resale.  We are Gold members by having over 30000 points.


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## bakera

Fried_shrimp said:


> Friday, Saturday, and Sunday check ins have normal weekly costs. Mon-Thur check in dates have a 10% premium for checking in on a "non-standard" day. Didn't use to be like that though (a recent.....last 5 years.....change). For nightly rates, Sun-Thur is 10% of the weekly rate and Fri and Sat are 30% of the weekly rate (also a change....originally Fri & Sat were 25% of the weekly rate which worked out to the correct 100% of the week.....then they decided more people were doing weekends and boosted it to 30%).


That depends on the legacy deeds of the accommodation held in the trust.  For example at Woodford Bridge all accommodation was originally Sunday change over, so the current ‘week’ price only applies to Sunday checkins and we have to pay the nightly rate for any other checkin date.


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## geist1223

Tamaradarann said:


> I am not sure that would be but both systems have a period that ranges from 13/12 months to 10/9 months that only owners of a resort can make reservations.(Resort Reservation Period)  That should stay the same.
> 
> 
> Quote Reply
> Report



With DRI the early booking Windows are not restricted to a single Resort but to all the Resorts in the Collection.


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## WORLD TRAVELER

When reading over the email from Hilton, it states that DRI inventory would be available through RCI.  Would this mean that HGVC members would have some sort of preference period over other RCI members to book those rooms similar to what Interval does with Marriott for Marriott to Marriott or would we be competing with every RCI member for the available DRI properties?  I suppose this RCI exchange method would only be in place until the internal exchange program is developed for HGVC, DRI and Embarc (C.I.) members to use.


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## bizaro86

WORLD TRAVELER said:


> When reading over the email from Hilton, it states that DRI inventory would be available through RCI.  Would this mean that HGVC members would have some sort of preference period over other RCI members to book those rooms similar to what Interval does with Marriott for Marriott to Marriott or would we be competing with every RCI member for the available DRI properties?  I suppose this RCI exchange method would only be in place until the internal exchange program is developed for HGVC, DRI and Embarc (C.I.) members to use.



It seems like a no-brainer to me for them to launch a  rci/II competitor. Just with their own owners they'd have significant scale. Right now they pay RCI some sort of bulk fee, which they could pay to themselves out of MF. I think they'd be able to get significant traction, especially if they could get DVC to come with them.

Then market to independents and the remaining mini-systems (Holiday Inn, Vacation Villages, etc)


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## GT75

bizaro86 said:


> It seems like a no-brainer to me for them to launch a rci/II competitor. Just with their own owners they'd have significant scale. Right now they pay RCI some sort of bulk fee, which they could pay to themselves out of MF. I think they'd be able to get significant traction, especially if they could get DVC to come with them.


I would be in favor of that.     So far, I have never traded in either RCI or II.    I have only used my points within the HGVC system.   But I have used my points at Fiesta Americana - Los Cabos and Intrawest - Zihuatanejo.


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## Talent312

> I have never traded in either RCI or II.



I've booked nine RCI resorts thru HGVC - mostly adequate to nice.
Even if DRI is folded into HGVC, IMHO, RCI still brings added value.
.


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## escanoe

Talent312 said:


> I've booked nine RCI resorts thru HGVC - mostly adequate to nice.
> Even if DRI is folded into HGVC, IMHO, RCI still brings added value.
> .


I have a couple of RCI Points traders. I don’t see leaving that ... but I would see HGVC setting up an exchange with DRI as a big plus.

Giving II and RCI more competition would be good for consumers. I would expect much lower exchange fees for an HGVC/DRI exchange than what we get with RCI now. If you are HGVC now and trade in RCI much, you would probably be doing better owning an RCI Points property, anyway.

Losing HGVC, DRI, and Disney ... that would be a blow to RCI. But it would still be worthwhile to me.


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## Tamaradarann

geist1223 said:


> With DRI the early booking Windows are not restricted to a single Resort but to all the Resorts in the Collection.


I have gone to a Diamond Resort Presentation and did learn about the Collection Trusts that they have set up which then becomes your home resort for the purposes of the reservation window discussion.  I did get a laugh out of the fact that the Hawaii Collection had more non Hawaii Resorts than Hawaii Resorts.  So there were way more weeks in that collection than there were Hawaii weeks that could be booked.


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## ccwu

Went owners update in Lagoon tower today. I asked the salesperson about HGV acquired DRI... she said that we could Google it. They knew very little and they were discourage to talk about it.  They just want to focus on the sales pitch. 


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## IrishDave

ccwu said:


> Went owners update in Lagoon tower today. I asked the salesperson about HGV acquired DRI... she said that we could Google it. They knew very little and they were discourage to talk about it.  They just want to focus on the sales pitch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Tell them your Google results make it clear you should only buy on the secondary market, never from a salesperson!


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## ccwu

IrishDave said:


> Tell them your Google results make it clear you should only buy on the secondary market, never from a salesperson!



They offer my resale Hilton club that I bought for $11,000 for trade in $83,000 and resale 57th street (I got for 5,000) for $50,000. Not a bad deal. I need to buy something for about $20K in pre construction price platinum premier Maui unit plus 15,000 bonus pts and Lower my MF by $2000. I rejected bc I like my resale NY properties better than Maui one. The price now is much lower than 2019’s offer. Some are close to resale price. 


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## bakera

Tamaradarann said:


> I have gone to a Diamond Resort Presentation and did learn about the Collection Trusts that they have set up which then becomes your home resort for the purposes of the reservation window discussion.  I did get a laugh out of the fact that the Hawaii Collection had more non Hawaii Resorts than Hawaii Resorts.  So there were way more weeks in that collection than there were Hawaii weeks that could be booked.


Yes, and the EU collection includes some units in Florida.


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## ccwu

bakera said:


> Yes, and the EU collection includes some units in Florida.



They spread the MF by adding some LV resort to HI properties and to flatten the costs. 

All cost are shared by the group of trust properties. When Florida one property has storm or flood damage, the EU will share. 


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## CalGalTraveler

ccwu said:


> They offer my resale Hilton club that I bought for $11,000 for trade in $83,000 and resale 57th street (I got for 5,000) for $50,000. Not a bad deal. I need to buy something for about $20K in pre construction price platinum premier Maui unit plus 15,000 bonus pts and Lower my MF by $2000. I rejected bc I like my resale NY properties better than Maui one. The price now is much lower than 2019’s offer. Some are close to resale price.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



We've had similar offers with our resale - never gets below $10k additional money.  It would take 10 years to breakeven on the $20k with a $2k/year lower MF.  I wouldn't take it either because club points won't help you with NYC bHC reservations and 10 years is a long time.  Were the points level equivalent?


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## CalGalTraveler

Fried_shrimp said:


> Reservation fees are hardly irrelevant. One of the biggest reasons I converted from my fixed/floating weeks to points was due to the rising costs of reservations fees with RCI/II. Also, most Diamond members don't book a week stay. Many (including myself) book many, many weekends (due to still working and being close enough to drive to multiple Diamond resorts). Multiply 15 weekends a year plus a few week or longer stays times $59 a booking and you're looking at some serious money in reservation fees. Just because reservation fees are irrelevant to you doesn't make them irrelevant to everyone else.



You missed my point. It is all relative:  If hypothetically MF for HGVC Lagoon are $1800 and it is $59 to reserve, the total is $1859. If the MF for KBC is $2200 but no res fee, which is the better deal? One could make 6 reservations with fees and still be ahead of the no reservation fee scenario.

Besides there are methods in the HGVC system to avoid reservation fees for multiple reservations. I get free all inclusive reservations at my HGVC property. So after the base fee everything is free.


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## nuwermj

bakera said:


> Yes, and the EU collection includes some units in Florida.



The EU collection had 207 weeks at Cypress Pointe. Diamond withdrew all but 5 week in 2016.


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## nuwermj

ccwu said:


> They spread the MF by adding some LV resort to HI properties and to flatten the costs.
> 
> All cost are shared by the group of trust properties. When Florida one property has storm or flood damage, the EU will share.



Yes, that is DRI propaganda, but it should be taken skeptically. There were 461,619,220 points in the HI collection on December 31, 2019. The number of points at the two Hawaii resorts in the collection was 203,161,500. Thus, only 44% of the points were in HI. Since Diamond sells HI points with Hawaii as the special destination, this means 416.6 million demanders are chasing 203.2 million reservations.


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## youppi

nuwermj said:


> Yes, that is DRI propaganda, but it should be taken skeptically. There were 461,619,220 points in the HI collection on December 31, 2019. The number of points at the two Hawaii resorts in the collection was 203,161,500. Thus, only 44% of the points were in HI. Since Diamond sells HI points with Hawaii as the special destination, this means 416.6 million demanders are chasing 203.2 million reservations.


I think only the HI Collection members can book The Modern Honolulu on Oahu at 13 months even if The Modern is not in the HI Collection.


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## ccwu

CalGalTraveler said:


> We've had similar offers with our resale - never gets below $10k additional money. It would take 10 years to breakeven on the $20k with a $2k/year lower MF. I wouldn't take it either because club points won't help you with NYC bHC reservations and 10 years is a long time. Were the points level equivalent?



I have two NYHC contracts. I let go one 10,000 points MF $3300) Exchanged into grand Waikikian 2 bedroom platinum premier 14,400. We have a net gain of 4,400 (MF $1900) points. Since we still have NYC residence Club and 57th street too. We thought We have plenty bHC points. But this is our cheapest offer from all purchases so far. They can only take one resale for a sale over 100k contract. I was told they only accept certain resales (no affiliated. only resorts developed by HGV.) they love HC because there are buyers. Plus we also got 10k bonus points and 30k Hilton honor points. 


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## brp

CalGalTraveler said:


> We've had similar offers with our resale - never gets below $10k additional money.  It would take 10 years to breakeven on the $20k with a $2k/year lower MF.  I wouldn't take it either because club points won't help you with NYC bHC reservations and 10 years is a long time.  Were the points level equivalent?



I would consider going from a W. 57th 5200 Studio Plus to a 7200 Studio Premier for $10K additional. But the offers don't below about $20K, IIRC.

Cheers,


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## ccwu

youppi said:


> I think only the HI Collection members can book The Modern Honolulu on Oahu at 13 months even if The Modern is not in the HI Collection.



We own both HI and US collection. Being Dri platinum member we can almost book everything 14 months in advance. But it is still hard to get certain resorts. We originally own Maui Embassy, it became Sunterra, and we trade our deed with Sunterra trust with strong objections Timon from our other deeded friends. We can not book into Maui between January to March. All the deeded owners who hold their deeds not giving out their deeded week so there is no availability. The deeded week has priority to platinum member. Platinum has priority over the other members. This is one of the reason it is hard for regular member to get peak prime properties. 


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## frank808

Is Diamond higher than platinum in DRI?

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## Tamaradarann

ccwu said:


> They offer my resale Hilton club that I bought for $11,000 for trade in $83,000 and resale 57th street (I got for 5,000) for $50,000. Not a bad deal. I need to buy something for about $20K in pre construction price platinum premier Maui unit plus 15,000 bonus pts and Lower my MF by $2000. I rejected bc I like my resale NY properties better than Maui one. The price now is much lower than 2019’s offer. Some are close to resale price.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do I have this right the Maui property that they are offereing you costs 83K + 50 K + 20K = $153,000.  So they are giving you some nice credit for the properties that you own but they are charging so much for the Maui property that they get 2 nice NYC timeshares and $20,000 for a Maui property.


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## Tamaradarann

nuwermj said:


> Yes, that is DRI propaganda, but it should be taken skeptically. There were 461,619,220 points in the HI collection on December 31, 2019. The number of points at the two Hawaii resorts in the collection was 203,161,500. Thus, only 44% of the points were in HI. Since Diamond sells HI points with Hawaii as the special destination, this means 416.6 million demanders are chasing 203.2 million reservations.


The point you made with the number of points is precisely the point I was making:  In the DRI Hawaii Collection there are more weeks owned by members in the Hawaii Collection than there are weeks available in the Hawaii Resorts in the collection.  Therefore, it may be hard to book Hawaii.  By the way is the Modern in the Hawaii Collection or not?  If not why not?  If it isn't I probably tell you why.  Honolulu is so in demand that they want to sell it only to people who will pay for the location not let others in a collection get in who bought their points cheaper.


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## geist1223

Diamond is not higher than Platinum. Modern Honolulu is not part of the Hawaiian Collection. Why/why not ask DRI.


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## nuwermj

Tamaradarann said:


> By the way is the Modern in the Hawaii Collection or not?  If not why not?  If it isn't I probably tell you why.  Honolulu is so in demand that they want to sell it only to people who will pay for the location not let others in a collection get in who bought their points cheaper.



The Modern is not currently in HI Collection. Diamond acquired the hotel in April 2018. They announced their plan to convert it to condos one floor at a time, and sell those conversions as timeshare. I believe they started the conversion just before the pandemic and there were statements from Diamnd that the Modern would be added to HI collection. It will be up to the new management if any of this changes.


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## Tamaradarann

nuwermj said:


> The Modern is not currently in HI Collection. Diamond acquired the hotel in April 2018. They announced their plan to convert it to condos one floor at a time, and sell those conversions as timeshare. I believe they started the conversion just before the pandemic and there were statements from Diamnd that the Modern would be added to HI collection. It will be up to the new management if any of this changes.



We know about Diamond acquiring the hotel and have gone to a presentation there right after the acquired it.  When we stay at the Hilton Hawaiian Village we walk by it almost everyday going to and from the mall.  If it does go into the Hawaii Collection then it would certainly help the balance between Hawaii and non-Hawaii resorts in the Hawaii Collection.   While I believe that all of the resorts in the Hawaii Collection will be hard to book with more owner weeks in the Hawaii Collection than there are actual weeks available in Hawaii, the Modern will be the hardest just like the Hilton Hawaiian Village is harder to book than the resorts on the Island of Hawaii.


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## dayooper

Tamaradarann said:


> If it does go into the Hawaii Collection then it would certainly help the balance between Hawaii and non-Hawaii resorts in the Hawaii Collection.



I think this might wind up as an HGVC/bHC property. With it not currently being in a trust and it being in a very popular area, this would fit right in with HGVC.


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## linsj

dayooper said:


> I think this might wind up as an HGVC/bHC property. With it not currently being in a trust and it being in a very popular area, this would fit right in with HGVC.



This would be a good move for Hilton.


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## Tamaradarann

dayooper said:


> I think this might wind up as an HGVC/bHC property. With it not currently being in a trust and it being in a very popular area, this would fit right in with HGVC.


How much of it has been sold already?  I don't know how HGVC would handle this type of move.  This is what I believe are the previous HGVC timeshare acquisitions:  In South-West Florida and the Bay Club the resorts were kept as affiliates and owners could join HGVC or not.  The Elara was a partially finished and sold out building which is similar to the Modern at present.  When the builidng was purchased from Westgate the units that Westgate finished and sold were kept as Westgate.  The rest were completed by HGVC and became part of HGVC like all the other HGVC developed buildings.


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## CalGalTraveler

nuwermj said:


> Yes, that is DRI propaganda, but it should be taken skeptically. There were 461,619,220 points in the HI collection on December 31, 2019. The number of points at the two Hawaii resorts in the collection was 203,161,500. Thus, only 44% of the points were in HI. Since Diamond sells HI points with Hawaii as the special destination, this means 416.6 million demanders are chasing 203.2 million reservations.



This is one of the key reasons I don't trust TS land trusts. Too easy to play games. Many developers don't tell you exactly what's in the trust to avoid being sued. Also deedbacks provide a great opportunity to take units out of the trust. I don't think there is anything obligating the developer to put specific units back in the trust once there is a deedback. I am sure the lawyers have put in language for every change and contingency. But maybe Diamond is different?

The other reason I don't trust trusts is that the law is not settled as to walking away from a trust. Whereas deeds have legal precedence per the terrific work that @Grammarhero has pulled together. State laws differ greatly.

What state laws prevail if there are deeds in a trust from multiple states? I believe Diamond is based in Nevada which BTW doesn't have non-judicial, anti-deficiency laws.  So if NV law prevails on a trust, and you or a loved one must walk due to health or other catastrophe, you may be stuck paying out of your assets for developer legal fees and deficiency. Other states such as Calif, FL and SC are more forgiving and you only need to give back the timeshare as the deficiency.









						Links to Official State Timeshare Laws and Guides/Manuals
					

@TUGBrian @DeniseM @CalGalTraveler take a look.  This weekend, I’m creating a spreadsheet with official links to states’ timeshare laws, as well as their statuses as to non-judicial, anti-deficiency foreclosures.  In the meantime, I will just keep adding notes.   * Legal Disclaimer: This list...




					tugbbs.com


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## CalGalTraveler

ccwu said:


> We own both HI and US collection. Being Dri platinum member we can almost book everything 14 months in advance. But it is still hard to get certain resorts. We originally own Maui Embassy, it became Sunterra, and we trade our deed with Sunterra trust with strong objections Timon from our other deeded friends. We can not book into Maui between January to March. All the deeded owners who hold their deeds not giving out their deeded week so there is no availability. The deeded week has priority to platinum member. Platinum has priority over the other members. This is one of the reason it is hard for regular member to get peak prime properties.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There should also be KBC units in the trust separate from the deeded weeks. Perhaps those are not prime weeks?

However given the high rental values during prime for the Westin next door (e.g. $5000+/week in a 2bdrm), I surmise that deeded owners would rather rent it out for cash profit, or do an II trade for a Marriott, Hyatt or Westin, than trade for DRI trust points. This would be especially true if getting DRI points reservations at prime is a crap shoot.

I could envision (hope!) the deeded weeks owners at KBC and potentially Modern being added to HGVC deed/points system and assigning them an HGVC points value.


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## dayooper

Tamaradarann said:


> How much of it has been sold already?  I don't know how HGVC would handle this type of move.  This is what I believe are the previous HGVC timeshare acquisitions:  In South-West Florida and the Bay Club the resorts were kept as affiliates and owners could join HGVC or not.  The Elara was a partially finished and sold out building which is similar to the Modern at present.  When the builidng was purchased from Westgate the units that Westgate finished and sold were kept as Westgate.  The rest were completed by HGVC and became part of HGVC like all the other HGVC developed buildings.



From what it sounds like, there's still most of The Modern's inventory left. How they would handle the current owners, I'm not sure. If I'm to understand what I've been told about the property, it's not part of a trust. How was ownership sold? If they are true owned weeks, they could easily be converted into HGVC style of points. You could give the owners the option of joining HGVC (voluntary resort like the other affiliates) or buy them back as they come up for sale. HGVC loves the upgrade tactic so I'm sure they would jump at at the chance to get trade in's on these deeds. If they are trust style points, you could also give the owners time to make their reservations (like a Home Season booking) and make the club booking start at 9 months. You could give the current owners options to enroll their points (turn them into weeks, depending on the amount of points owned). 

I think HGVC merged with DRI for multiple reasons. One of the big knocks of HGVC was the limited locations. Even if booking is difficult, they can say they have all of these great locations under the Hilton umbrella. Much like the SW Florida resorts, they are in the system, but not easily booked. Mark Wang said they would be rebranding DRI resorts and some of them would be branded HGVC. I believe there will be some ability for current HGVC members to book into certain DRI resorts (just like I believe there will be options for DRI members to book into certain HGVC resorts). HGVC has to have some vehicle to upsale DRI owners into the more expensive HGVC deeds and the best way is to have the prospective buyers stay in the resorts. As far as The Modern goes, it's just too easy to rebrand HGVC. It's in a great location and, if I understand the situation properly, no trust situation to complicate things. They could jack up the prices for these weeks to Ocean Tower or even the NYC property levels. This would give HGVC more inventory in Oahu (it seems there just can't be enough) and more properties to sell prospective HGVC buyers on. They would have a total of seven Oahu properties to entice buyers.


----------



## GT75

CalGalTraveler said:


> This is one of the key reasons I don't trust TS land trusts. Too easy to play games. Many developers don't tell you exactly what's in the trust to avoid being sued. Also deedbacks provide a great opportunity to take units out of the trust.





ccwu said:


> Once you buy into the trust, your points is variable. If they oversold, they just raise points for reservation. That is why so many unhappy owners, they bought 4500 for s studio week, now they could not get a week with the points. Whatever DRI changed the points rate is not right.


I agree.   I also think that a DRI member reported previously in this thread that Diamond changed the point requirements to reserve units in their Trust.    Wow, this certainly doesn't seem right to me after I purchased into the Trust.    Just think for example if HGVC could change the point requirements of LT without changing the points that owners purchased at LT.    Hopefully, I misunderstood/misread the post.


----------



## nuwermj

dayooper said:


> From what it sounds like, there's still most of The Modern's inventory left. How they would handle the current owners, I'm not sure. If I'm to understand what I've been told about the property, it's not part of a trust. How was ownership sold?



The Modern is currently a traditional hotel. Nothing has yet been converted to timeshare. There are no timeshare owners.


----------



## nuwermj

GT75 said:


> I also think that a DRI member reported previously in this thread that Diamond changed the point requirements to reserve units in their Trust.



That statement was made in error. Diamond has not changed point values. And "short stay point values" (the 10% premium) predates Diamond.


----------



## Tamaradarann

nuwermj said:


> The Modern is currently a traditional hotel. Nothing has yet been converted to timeshare. There are no timeshare owners.



I know I went to a presentation at the Modern 2 years ago.  I want't buying so I didn't pay attention to exactly what they were selling only that they were selling a timeshare that was going to cost me more than I was paying to stay in a Studio at the Lagoon Tower at the Hilton.   Are you saying that they weren't selling the Modern at that time only membership in a trust which did NOT include the Modern?   Furthermore, are you saying that the Modern renvoation into Timeshare units hasn't started yet?


----------



## nuwermj

Tamaradarann said:


> I know I went to a presentation at the Modern 2 years ago.  I want't buying so I didn't pay attention to exactly what they were selling only that they were selling a timeshare that was going to cost me more than I was paying to stay in a Studio at the Lagoon Tower at the Hilton.   Are you saying that they weren't selling the Modern at that time only membership in a trust which did NOT include the Modern?



Yes, they were selling points in the HI trust fund. And at that time the Modern was not in that trust. But Diamond owned the building and they were letting members use points to reserved rooms there. It was like an affiliate resort.



Tamaradarann said:


> Furthermore, are you saying that the Modern renvoation into Timeshare units hasn't started yet?



Diamond's stated intention was to convert the Modern one floor at a time. I recall a DRI exec saying that renovations on one of the floors had started before the pandemic arose. I don't know if the renovations on that one floor have been completed in the interim. I also don't know whether the timeshare declaration which creates the HOA has been approved by the state of Hawaii. @youppi Luc have you heard anything about the status of the renovations?


----------



## Jason245

I actually wonder if the embarc brand might be rolled into hgvc. My understanding is that the quality is similar, they were previously affiliated with eachother.

I know those owners fought joining dri network.. would they fight a combination with hgvc? Points conversion already exists and has history if not in use currently.  

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## dayooper

Jason245 said:


> I actually wonder if the embarc brand might be rolled into hgvc. My understanding is that the quality is similar, they were previously affiliated with eachother.
> 
> I know those owners fought joining dri network.. would they fight a combination with hgvc? Points conversion already exists and has history if not in use currently.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk



I think it will be at least like the external exchange resorts (GP Palisades, GP Seapointe).


----------



## holdaer

Hopefully, the Embarc resorts will have a similar point structure like GP Palisades and GP Seapointe and not the goofy odd point structure previously.  Why didn't they have points rounded to the nearest 100s place?  Booking a week reservation for 7,348 points was weird.


----------



## Jason245

holdaer said:


> Hopefully, the Embarc resorts will have a similar point structure like GP Palisades and GP Seapointe and not the goofy odd point structure previously. Why didn't they have points rounded to the nearest 100s place? Booking a week reservation for 7,348 points was weird.


It might not be ideal, but the points transfer structure already exists which means it is probably easy to turn back on. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## youppi

nuwermj said:


> Yes, they were selling points in the HI trust fund. And at that time the Modern was not in that trust. But Diamond owned the building and they were letting members use points to reserved rooms there. It was like an affiliate resort.
> 
> 
> 
> Diamond's stated intention was to convert the Modern one floor at a time. I recall a DRI exec saying that renovations on one of the floors had started before the pandemic arose. I don't know if the renovations on that one floor have been completed in the interim. I also don't know whether the timeshare declaration which creates the HOA has been approved by the state of Hawaii. @youppi Luc have you heard anything about the status of the renovations?


No and when I do a search for availability, I see no new type of units with kitchen because from what I understand from the following quoted sentences, hotel rooms will be changed to unit with kitchen/kitchenette.
"The Modern is a hotel that is being converted into a timeshare property. During this time, the hotel rooms will not have kitchens or kitchenettes."


----------



## Fried_shrimp

For those who are interesting, here is the URL that lists all of the Diamond resorts. Unfortunately, it also lists all of the affiliates so you have to look at the symbols to determine which is which.

As someone stated earlier, Diamond IT, in all of their glory, decided (or screwed up) and deleted the link on the website to Locations so I had to access it abackdoor way to get it.



			https://member.diamondresorts.com/Resorts/


----------



## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> Not true.  “Dirty” points do earn status, it’s just that you cannot use them for any of the worthless additions that they’ve introduced in recent years (such as cruises, flights or hotel stays).  We started our journey with DRI back when it was the Grand Vacation Club (prior to Sunterra taking over) with 5000 points.  Those are the only points we ever bought from the developer but have increased our ownership to 31000 by buying resale.  We are Gold members by having over 30000 points.



I'm sorry but that is incorrect. Status is only gained when being a member of The Club and dirty points are not in The Club and have none of the benefits of The Club. Dirty points can (used to be at least) cleaned but unless that was done at some point in time, dirty points grant no privileges in the The Club.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> Yes, and the EU collection includes some units in Florida.



Deleted.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

nuwermj said:


> The EU collection had 207 weeks at Cypress Pointe. Diamond withdrew all but 5 week in 2016.



Wasn't Cypress Pointe managed by Festiva until 2016/2017?


----------



## Fried_shrimp

frank808 said:


> Is Diamond higher than platinum in DRI?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk



There is no Diamond status in DRI. Standard, Silver, Gold, Platinum and the brand new Centum status is what is available.


----------



## pedro47

Fried_shrimp said:


> For those who are interesting, here is the URL that lists all of the Diamond resorts. Unfortunately, it also lists all of the affiliates so you have to look at the symbols to determine which is which.
> 
> As someone stated earlier, Diamond IT, in all of their glory, decided (or screwed up) and deleted the link on the website to Locations so I had to access it abackdoor way to get it.
> 
> 
> 
> https://member.diamondresorts.com/Resorts/


You need to be a DRI member to look at this link.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> I'm sorry but that is incorrect. Status is only gained when being a member of The Club and dirty points are not in The Club and have none of the benefits of The Club. Dirty points can (used to be at least) cleaned but unless that was done at some point in time, dirty points grant no privileges in the The Club.



I wonder if HGVC will address the issue of "dirty" points.  As we know in HGVC points that were bought resale, (Dirty points is a negative term that Diamond created to debase resale) get every benefit of buying from the develper except Elite Status.  We should all want resale purchases to be as close to the value of buying from the developer as possible to keep the value of what we own high.


----------



## dougp26364

Tamaradarann said:


> I wonder if HGVC will address the issue of "dirty" points.  As we know in HGVC points that were bought resale, (Dirty points is a negative term that Diamond created to debase resale) get every benefit of buying from the develper except Elite Status.  We should all want resale purchases to be as close to the value of buying from the developer as possible to keep the value of what we own high.



I’ve thought about this and have my opinion as to how I would like to see Hilton handle this issue.

Essentially, I’d love to see them keep the policy as is, plus change DRI’s policy to the same, where resale buyers of trust points can use them the same as retail points. I don’t anticipate this will be the case.

I imagine there will be some drawback or limitations to resale purchase. They will likely leave each programs current policies in place. I think the kicker will be how points are handled when reserving across brands, as in retail points can play while resale points have to stay. Sales will want resale buyers to “legitimize” their points with some sort of retail purchase. There’s so many examples of this around the industry it’s hard not to believe Hilton will make some sort of “deal” to get resale purchasers to buy retail for full access (so to speak). 

I don’t have a lot of experience with anything except Marriott, but MVC requires “junk fees” to make resale points purchases “whole”. They also require a retail purchase if a owner of a deeded resale week wants to be able to convert that week to DC points and gain full access to their program. 

I could be way off base. My history of speculation isn’t very good. Hilton might keep both programs separate without some sort of overlay program where owners can reserve from all pools of available resorts. Or maybe they’ll do some sort of deal like what they have with their By Hilton product, where regular HGVC members are pretty restricted to the bHilton inventory unless they purchase into that inventory.


----------



## pedro47

I feel we need to wait and see until the deal is finalized and approved.


----------



## dayooper

dougp26364 said:


> I’ve thought about this and have my opinion as to how I would like to see Hilton handle this issue.
> 
> Essentially, I’d love to see them keep the policy as is, plus change DRI’s policy to the same, where resale buyers of trust points can use them the same as retail points. I don’t anticipate this will be the case.
> 
> I imagine there will be some drawback or limitations to resale purchase. They will likely leave each programs current policies in place. I think the kicker will be how points are handled when reserving across brands, as in retail points can play while resale points have to stay. Sales will want resale buyers to “legitimize” their points with some sort of retail purchase. There’s so many examples of this around the industry it’s hard not to believe Hilton will make some sort of “deal” to get resale purchasers to buy retail for full access (so to speak).
> 
> I don’t have a lot of experience with anything except Marriott, but MVC requires “junk fees” to make resale points purchases “whole”. They also require a retail purchase if a owner of a deeded resale week wants to be able to convert that week to DC points and gain full access to their program.
> 
> I could be way off base. My history of speculation isn’t very good. Hilton might keep both programs separate without some sort of overlay program where owners can reserve from all pools of available resorts. Or maybe they’ll do some sort of deal like what they have with their By Hilton product, where regular HGVC members are pretty restricted to the bHilton inventory unless they purchase into that inventory.



The bHC concept of restricted access from regular HGVC members is changing. They have extended the club booking window a little on existing urban resorts, and have opened up Liberty Place and La Pacifica to Regular club booking windows. Club bookings at those two resorts are the same 276 days as any other HGVC resort.

While I do believe there will be some sort of fee or purchase coming for cross booking, this concept seems different from the Marriott/Vistana merger. Whereas those two brands seem to be on par with each other and eventually be as integrated as possible, this merger is different. Using the DRI resorts to get younger people in the door and upsale them into more expensive deeds, the intention is to keep the majority of the two systems separate. I wonder if there will be some DRI (and maybe even HGVC) resorts that will have units on both sides of the system? Keeping availability for DRI while granting HGVC members access as well. Or maybe a combined club that will allow in internal exchange? HGVC needs to be able to put their inventory into the HVC (DRI’s new branding). Maybe expanded club dues that grants access? We know HGVC loves their fees.


----------



## dougp26364

pedro47 said:


> I feel we need to wait and see until the deal is finalized and approved.



Everything now is pure speculation and/or wishful thinking. The real fun begins when the sales staff starts their rumors as motivation for current owners to buy.


----------



## Eric B

dayooper said:


> The bHC concept of restricted access from regular HGVC members is changing. They have extended the club booking window a little on existing urban resorts, and have opened up Liberty Place and La Pacifica to Regular club booking windows. Club bookings at those two resorts are the same 276 days as any other HGVC resort.
> 
> While I do believe there will be some sort of fee or purchase coming for cross booking, this concept seems different from the Marriott/Vistana merger. Whereas those two brands seem to be on par with each other and eventually be as integrated as possible, this merger is different. Using the DRI resorts to get younger people in the door and upsale them into more expensive deeds, the intention is to keep the majority of the two systems separate. I wonder if there will be some DRI (and maybe even HGVC) resorts that will have units on both sides of the system? Keeping availability for DRI while granting HGVC members access as well. Or maybe a combined club that will allow in internal exchange? HGVC needs to be able to put their inventory into the HVC (DRI’s new branding). Maybe expanded club dues that grants access? We know HGVC loves their fees.



I'm new to HGVC, but would take the thought that the greater access to bHC will be long lasting with a grain of salt.  My interpretation would be that it was a rational reaction to the lower occupancy rates given the travel restrictions, etc.  Once travel demand rises, I would expect a similar reaction to reduce the access.

As for the units from both systems at the same resort, that's a fairly common approach taken at systems under common management like Wyndham and WorldMark, so it wouldn't surprise me if that happened.


----------



## dayooper

Eric B said:


> I'm new to HGVC, but would take the thought that the greater access to bHC will be long lasting with a grain of salt.  My interpretation would be that it was a rational reaction to the lower occupancy rates given the travel restrictions, etc.  Once travel demand rises, I would expect a similar reaction to reduce the access.
> 
> As for the units from both systems at the same resort, that's a fairly common approach taken at systems under common management like Wyndham and WorldMark, so it wouldn't surprise me if that happened.



Very well could be, but I seem to remember discussing the expanded booking windows back In November 2019 when the 2020 points chart came out. I could be wrong, though. It would be like finding a needle in a haystack to look up that thread.


----------



## jd5504

karibkeith said:


> From the other side, I am a Diamond owner and this looks like horrible news to me. I went to the HGVC site and most of the places looked like hotels and not resorts. Also trying to get a list was like pulling teeth from a hen's mouth. Perhaps if I could sign in, I would get  better information. Does anyone have a list?











						Hilton Grand Vacations
					

At Hilton Grand Vacations, we believe life is incomplete without vacations. Learn how you can see more of the world from the comfort of our exceptional timeshare resorts




					www.hiltongrandvacations.com


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dougp26364 said:


> I’ve thought about this and have my opinion as to how I would like to see Hilton handle this issue.
> 
> Essentially, I’d love to see them keep the policy as is, plus change DRI’s policy to the same, where resale buyers of trust points can use them the same as retail points. I don’t anticipate this will be the case.
> 
> I imagine there will be some drawback or limitations to resale purchase. They will likely leave each programs current policies in place. I think the kicker will be how points are handled when reserving across brands, as in retail points can play while resale points have to stay. Sales will want resale buyers to “legitimize” their points with some sort of retail purchase. There’s so many examples of this around the industry it’s hard not to believe Hilton will make some sort of “deal” to get resale purchasers to buy retail for full access (so to speak).
> 
> I don’t have a lot of experience with anything except Marriott, but MVC requires “junk fees” to make resale points purchases “whole”. They also require a retail purchase if a owner of a deeded resale week wants to be able to convert that week to DC points and gain full access to their program.
> 
> I could be way off base. My history of speculation isn’t very good. Hilton might keep both programs separate without some sort of overlay program where owners can reserve from all pools of available resorts. Or maybe they’ll do some sort of deal like what they have with their By Hilton product, where regular HGVC members are pretty restricted to the bHilton inventory unless they purchase into that inventory.



IMO...there are benefits to the resale policy for HGVC because it enables a more fluid and viable resale market which takes pressure off of deedbacks especially during down economies.  If you look at the TUG statistics, there are very few HGVC deed walkaway datapoints. Although I am certain it happens, I believe their policy toward resale makes resales more viable to sell or give away than other systems in which resale low season units are considered junk because you are limited to the resort/season you purchased.

To compare, Vistana has designated some resale units as "mandatory" which grandfathers the points system to resale buyers vs. "voluntary" which don't. The mandatory resorts tend to be desirable resale units. For example, Westin Kaanapali, Westin Kierland can command $5 - $35k resale depending on the view and season. The voluntary  resort units are mostly given away or low value. If they couldn't trade the voluntary week in II, I believe the value would plummet further because you would be limited to that season in a resort annually.

In the MVC system, only 60% of owners have enrolled their units after 10 years of the program. This creates limits to the trusts as to the quality of the units. Many of the best units in Hawaii and other locations are not enrolled because they will either be used, rented out or in limited times, traded in II.  The fluidity of the HGVC system where you can reserve penthouses and oceanfront with points is the best value of the system.

I hope they keep it as is.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

From the release it sounds like Hilton will keep both systems separate (HGV and HGVC). IMO they will cross-pollinate inventory into both systems at the same resort such as KBC. For example putting weeks owners in the HGVC because this system is set up for weeks. If DRI (HVC) owners upgrade to HGVC they will still want access to many of the same resorts as before and they need to offer that. Assigning HGVC points to DRI weeks owners will incent them to trade their premier units into the HGVC system making it as fluid and available as the rest of the system.

IMHO...I hope HGVC adds Embarc and other premier property weeks to HGVC to expand locations because the biggest criticism of HGVC is limited locations.  HGVC is positioned as the premium portfolio so expanding locations/options for the premier tier makes sense.

Their announcement also mentioned that HGVC will offer better accessibility to units in the HGVC tier so alternatively, they may give early reservation priority to certain HGVC properties as @Tamaradarann suggested similar to how they manage bHC in NYC and some Waikiki resorts today.


----------



## dougp26364

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMO...there are benefits to the resale policy for HGVC because it enables a more fluid and viable resale market which takes pressure off of deedbacks especially during down economies.  If you look at the TUG statistics, there are very few HGVC deed walkaway datapoints. Although I am certain it happens, I believe their policy toward resale makes resales more viable to sell or give away than other systems in which resale low season units are considered junk because you are limited to the resort/season you purchased.
> 
> To compare, Vistana has designated some resale units as "mandatory" which grandfathers the points system to resale buyers vs. "voluntary" which don't. The mandatory resorts tend to be desirable resale units. For example, Westin Kaanapali, Westin Kierland can command $5 - $35k resale depending on the view and season. The voluntary  resort units are mostly given away or low value. If they couldn't trade the voluntary week in II, I believe the value would plummet further because you would be limited to that season in a resort annually.
> 
> In the MVC system, only 60% of owners have enrolled their units after 10 years of the program. This creates limits to the trusts as to the quality of the units. Many of the best units in Hawaii and other locations are not enrolled because they will either be used, rented out or in limited times, traded in II.  The fluidity of the HGVC system where you can reserve penthouses and oceanfront with points is the best value of the system.
> 
> I hope they keep it as is.



I tend to agree, and if Hilton had the network of resorts that others have had, we’d own a great deal more Hilton and a great deal less Marriott.

But, corporations are more concerned with profits. Deed backs are the HOA’s problem. It will be interesting to see how Hilton plays this one. 

This acquisition interests me because I have become bored with Hilton’s collection of resorts and DRI’s collection has something to offer that interests us......... if the price is right.


----------



## youppi

Fried_shrimp said:


> For those who are interesting, here is the URL that lists all of the Diamond resorts. Unfortunately, it also lists all of the affiliates so you have to look at the symbols to determine which is which.
> 
> As someone stated earlier, Diamond IT, in all of their glory, decided (or screwed up) and deleted the link on the website to Locations so I had to access it abackdoor way to get it.
> 
> 
> 
> https://member.diamondresorts.com/Resorts/


DRI resorts are the one you can rent from them https://www.diamondresortsandhotels.com/Resorts


----------



## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> From the release it sounds like Hilton will keep both systems separate. IMO they will cross-pollinate inventory into both systems at the same resort such as KBC. For example putting weeks owners in the HGVC because this system is set up for weeks. If DRI (HVC) owners upgrade to HGVC they will still want access to many of the same resorts as before and they need to offer that.
> 
> IMHO...HGVC will likely add Embarc and other premier property weeks to HGVC to expand locations because the biggest criticism of HGVC is limited locations.  HGVC is positioned as the premium portfolio so expanding locations/options for the premier tier makes sense.



I think there are a couple of resorts that will be put into the HGVC system. I do believe Embarc will be available to HGVC and vice versa. I also think The Modern and Cabo Azul will be part of the HGVC system as well. They both transfer into the system with little issue and are in great locations. Sedona, Lake Tahoe, Maui, Kauai and maybe Virginia Beach are all locations I can see having dual access. How are the Caribbean resorts? That’s another under served area on the HGVC system.


----------



## sscheibel225

DazedandConfused said:


> I am not sure this is good news or bad news for HGVC members, but I am leaning towards this is bad news



I’m seeing more competition for prime dates in/at prime resorts. And less desirable inventory getting less patronage. 
Sorry to be supply/demand police. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dougp26364

sscheibel225 said:


> I’m seeing more competition for prime dates in/at prime resorts. And less desirable inventory getting less patronage.
> Sorry to be supply/demand police.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I don’t think you’ll see it play out this way. The ratio of high value weeks in desirable locations to owners will remain the same after the merger is complete as it was when both companies were separated. I think overall HGVC members own with Hilton because of the quality. They’re not likely to be in that big of a hurry to jump on DRI resorts, which overall are a lessor quality (based on our experience in both pools of resorts).

Where you may see an issue is in Hawaii where there is pent up frustration among HGVC members. Hilton will need to protect DRI owners of the Hawaiian trust. Even the most prudish of Hilton owners are likely to take a chance with a former DRI resort, just to get to Maui or Kauai. They might complain about it later but my bet is they’ll bite. Lake Tahoe may be the one other location I can think of were west coast HGVC members could be anxious for an opportunity to reserve. 

Hilton can protect DRI deeded week and Hawaiian Trust owners by holding the line with their own club rules. That being you can’t book a club reservation until you’re within 9 months of the LAST day of your planned reservation. DRI allows trust owners to book, if I recall correctly, at 13 months, deeded weeks owners to book their home resort at 12 months and all others with points to book at 10 months. My memory was you needed to be on it at 10 months if you wanted to get a week at KBC or The Point at Poipu. If (and this is PURE speculation) HGVC holds those reservation availability dates, DRI owners won’t see a change in availability unless they wait until that 9 month date, then you’ll see a decline in availability. 

As far as DRI owners booking into HGVC resorts, I bet Hilton does a pretty good job of protecting their own members. My guess is the points required to book into a “higher” level resort will dissuade the majority of DRI members. After all, what has HGVC got as far as location that DRI doesn’t already have? Maybe Oahu at HHV. Perhaps the Big Island resorts. Otherwise it will be much easier and cost effective for DRI owners to stay with their own collections. 

Of course, your guess is just as good as mine. We probably won’t know who guessed correctly for another 5 years or more.


----------



## Tamaradarann

CalGalTraveler said:


> From the release it sounds like Hilton will keep both systems separate (HGV and HGVC). IMO they will cross-pollinate inventory into both systems at the same resort such as KBC. For example putting weeks owners in the HGVC because this system is set up for weeks. If DRI (HVC) owners upgrade to HGVC they will still want access to many of the same resorts as before and they need to offer that. Assigning HGVC points to DRI weeks owners will incent them to trade their premier units into the HGVC system making it as fluid and available as the rest of the system.
> 
> IMHO...I hope HGVC adds Embarc and other premier property weeks to HGVC to expand locations because the biggest criticism of HGVC is limited locations.  HGVC is positioned as the premium portfolio so expanding locations/options for the premier tier makes sense.
> 
> Their announcement also mentioned that HGVC will offer better accessibility to units in the HGVC tier so alternatively, they may give early reservation priority to certain HGVC properties as @Tamaradarann suggested similar to how they manage bHC in NYC and some Waikiki resorts today.



I just thought about something related to DRI resales owners exchange privileges.  As we know in HGVC resale owners have the same privileges to reserve at other resorts as developer owners.  So if HGVC sets up an exchange system so HGVC owners can reserve a DRI resort at the 3 or 6 month mark, wouldn't they want to give ALL DRI owners the same privilege in the other direction?  Wouldn't it be awkward if a DRI resale owner could reserve at an HGVC resort at the 3 or 6 month mark but couldn't reserve in other resorts in the DRI system?


----------



## Fried_shrimp

pedro47 said:


> You need to be a DRI member to look at this link.



Sorry.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> I wonder if HGVC will address the issue of "dirty" points.  As we know in HGVC points that were bought resale, (Dirty points is a negative term that Diamond created to debase resale) get every benefit of buying from the develper except Elite Status.  We should all want resale purchases to be as close to the value of buying from the developer as possible to keep the value of what we own high.



Most of the benefits received by Diamond owners in The Club come from what you refer to as Elite status. So since you don't get Elite status with your dirty points, same as we don't get Metal status (Silver, Gold, Platinum), what benefits do you get other than to book units?


----------



## Fried_shrimp

pedro47 said:


> I feel we need to wait and see until the deal is finalized and approved.



I wrote to the CEO's office of Diamond Resorts this past Tuesday. In the past, when I have written his office I usually receive a response within a couple of hours either via email, phone call, or both. This time, nada, zilch, 5 days later. So I don't think we're going to get a peep until the deal is finalized.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dougp26364 said:


> Everything now is pure speculation and/or wishful thinking. The real fun begins when the sales staff starts their rumors as motivation for current owners to buy.



Since the announcement, Diamond sales staff are being very tight lipped about the pending merger. Truthfully, I'm surprised they are even still trying to make sales at this point.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> I just thought about something related to DRI resales owners exchange privileges.  As we know in HGVC resale owners have the same privileges to reserve at other resorts as developer owners.  So if HGVC sets up an exchange system so HGVC owners can reserve a DRI resort at the 3 or 6 month mark, wouldn't they want to give ALL DRI owners the same privilege in the other direction?  Wouldn't it be awkward if a DRI resale owner could reserve at an HGVC resort at the 3 or 6 month mark but couldn't reserve in other resorts in the DRI system?



DRI dirty point owners are used to the restriction that they can only book resorts in their collection so IMO, they wouldn't bat an eye at not being able to book an HGVC resort since it's not in their collection.


----------



## Talent312

Fried_shrimp said:


> I wrote to the CEO's office of Diamond Resorts this past Tuesday. In the past, when I have written his office I usually receive a response within a couple of hours either via email, phone call, or both. This time, nada, zilch, 5 days later.





Fried_shrimp said:


> Since the announcement, Diamond sales staff are being very tight lipped about the pending merger.



.
They may be too busy polishing their resumes and calling head-hunters.
.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> Most of the benefits received by Diamond owners in The Club come from what you refer to as Elite status. So since you don't get Elite status with your dirty points, same as we don't get Metal status (Silver, Gold, Platinum), what benefits do you get other than to book units?



You get all the benefits that come as a member that bought from the developer.  Even buying from the developer doesn't just give you Elite Status, Elite Status Plus or Elite Status Premier.  Only buying enough points FROM THE DEVELPER gives you that status.  Those benefits are mainly discounts on making reservations, saving points, guest certificates.  You can also get free room upgrades if available.  There is a catch with that benefit.  Under normal circumstances in Hawaii, where we normally want to stay, there are never rooms available the time that is needed to get upgraded.  You also get access to a special non HGVC resort collection.  However, that collection costs as much in points for one night that I pay for a week in the Hilton Hawaiian Village.


----------



## brp

dougp26364 said:


> This acquisition interests me because I have become bored with Hilton’s collection of resorts and DRI’s collection has something to offer that interests us......... if the price is right.



We're not bored in the sense that they have locations in places we have gone frequently and will continue to go (Big island annually, NYC 2-3 times/year). Even the occasional Vegas (where we actually own most of our points ).

We go plenty of other places and have various hotel memberships, statuses (stati? ) and points to use there.

With that said, fresh blood would be very welcome.

Cheers.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> DRI dirty point owners are used to the restriction that they can only book resorts in their collection so IMO, they wouldn't bat an eye at not being able to book an HGVC resort since it's not in their collection.



However, I believe that goal is to merge the collections and get owners to benefit as much as possible from the entire timeshare system.  To do that they need to experience each others collections, buy more points in one of the timeshares, pay reservation fees, get the benefits of the merger and rave about the new HGVC system to get others to buy into the system.


----------



## Hubble

buzglyd said:


> This is interesting and I wonder what properties will be in the HGV system going forward?
> 
> I’ve stayed in a few Diamond properties. Some are really nice and some are meh.
> 
> Cabo Azul and Embarc Palm Desert are fantastic. I’d use my points for either one of those.




My favorite Diamond resort is the Royal Regency in Paris.  No sales presentation.  VA Beach and Williamsburg were nice, but the sales people were brutal.  I understand they have outrageous resort fees now, so would never consider staying there.


----------



## dougp26364

Tamaradarann said:


> However, I believe that goal is to merge the collections and get owners to benefit as much as possible from the entire timeshare system.  To do that they need to experience each others collections, buy more points in one of the timeshares, pay reservation fees, get the benefits of the merger and rave about the new HGVC system to get others to buy into the system.



Simply put, the goal is to enhance the owners experience by getting then to pay more for the experience. 

I’m hoping for a simple, relatively inexpensive, joiner fee. What I expect is a minimum purchase requirement. I’m not saying I wouldn’t buy more. I am saying at this point I wouldn’t be excited about it either.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

dougp26364 said:


> I don’t think you’ll see it play out this way. The ratio of high value weeks in desirable locations to owners will remain the same after the merger is complete as it was when both companies were separated. I think overall HGVC members own with Hilton because of the quality. They’re not likely to be in that big of a hurry to jump on DRI resorts, which overall are a lessor quality (based on our experience in both pools of resorts).
> 
> Where you may see an issue is in Hawaii where there is pent up frustration among HGVC members. Hilton will need to protect DRI owners of the Hawaiian trust. Even the most prudish of Hilton owners are likely to take a chance with a former DRI resort, just to get to Maui or Kauai. They might complain about it later but my bet is they’ll bite. Lake Tahoe may be the one other location I can think of were west coast HGVC members could be anxious for an opportunity to reserve.
> 
> Hilton can protect DRI deeded week and Hawaiian Trust owners by holding the line with their own club rules. That being you can’t book a club reservation until you’re within 9 months of the LAST day of your planned reservation. DRI allows trust owners to book, if I recall correctly, at 13 months, deeded weeks owners to book their home resort at 12 months and all others with points to book at 10 months. My memory was you needed to be on it at 10 months if you wanted to get a week at KBC or The Point at Poipu. If (and this is PURE speculation) HGVC holds those reservation availability dates, DRI owners won’t see a change in availability unless they wait until that 9 month date, then you’ll see a decline in availability.
> 
> As far as DRI owners booking into HGVC resorts, I bet Hilton does a pretty good job of protecting their own members. My guess is the points required to book into a “higher” level resort will dissuade the majority of DRI members. After all, what has HGVC got as far as location that DRI doesn’t already have? Maybe Oahu at HHV. Perhaps the Big Island resorts. Otherwise it will be much easier and cost effective for DRI owners to stay with their own collections.
> 
> Of course, your guess is just as good as mine. We probably won’t know who guessed correctly for another 5 years or more.



I appreciate your thoughts on timing. Very interesting. As indicated on this thread, there are more DRI locations than HI and Tahoe that would be of interest to HGVC owners:  Cabo Azul, Sedona, Embarc (esp. Palm Desert, Whistler), Perhaps VA Beach (for East Coast owners), Paris.

The challenge is that today the "premium" portfolio, HGVC, has fewer locations than the DRI portfolio. IMO...unless the cost of enrollment is low, it will be difficult to upsell DRI trust owners just on quality alone especially if most HGVC resorts are in the same locations as DRI unless they expand the portfolio and assure more availabilty.

We've heard a lot about properties that HGVC owners would like to visit. *Are there HGVC properties that DRI owners would like to visit?*

In addition, if DRI owners are given the same 9 month club as HGVC this will cause much dissatisfaction in the HGVC base as more people (DRI upsell and HGVC) will be competing for limited premium HGVC inventory unless the DRI upsell brings a commensurate amount of premium VOIs (e.g. prime weeks in HI, Cabo Tahoe, Sedona) out of the trust and they become affiliate reservations available to HGVC club reservations to expand the pool of quality resort VOIs. Otherwise you have more owners competing for a finite pool of quality VOIs thus shrinking club opportunity for all.

We should also consider that HGVC is also competing with MVC which has many locations with MVC standard high quality. Although HGVC portfolio doesn't need to have as many locations as MVC, they will need to take steps to add in key locations. Perhaps adding Embarc, and weeks from HI and Cabo Azul and Sedona to the HGVC portfolio will be a first step?


----------



## ccwu

Fried_shrimp said:


> DRI dirty point owners are used to the restriction that they can only book resorts in their collection so IMO, they wouldn't bat an eye at not being able to book an HGVC resort since it's not in their collection.



I assume the exchange between DRI resorts and HGV would be like RCI or II exchange. Dri members will get what HGV members willing to deposit into the system that Dri club member could use club reservation to get the HGV resorts. So does HGV will be able to use the Rci portal to get Dri member deposited. 

As being HGV member, we are not restricted to HGV resorts. We con convert points to HHONOR points to stay at world wide Hilton hotels. I assume Dri club members might be able to convert their points to HGV or HHonor points in return to reserve either Hilton hotels or HGV timeshares. You do lose the value by converting. I think the exchange portal is thru your own club portal just like HGV uses Rci to exchange. So if Dri dirty points owner can not use Dri club portal, I wonder if they would be able to exchange into HGV. Unless you own a HGV deed that would give you HGV points, you would be restricted to use your own club reservation. 

HGV Maui resort is opening pretty soon. Most members go to Maui using either Rci exchange or using Hilton hotels. (I personally prefer Maui Waldorf Astoria). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> You get all the benefits that come as a member that bought from the developer.  Even buying from the developer doesn't just give you Elite Status, Elite Status Plus or Elite Status Premier.  Only buying enough points FROM THE DEVELPER gives you that status.  Those benefits are mainly discounts on making reservations, saving points, guest certificates.  You can also get free room upgrades if available.  There is a catch with that benefit.  Under normal circumstances in Hawaii, where we normally want to stay, there are never rooms available the time that is needed to get upgraded.  You also get access to a special non HGVC resort collection.  However, that collection costs as much in points for one night that I pay for a week in the Hilton Hawaiian Village.



With Diamond, you also get discounted room rates within a certain period of time but unfortunately that discount is not as valuable as it used to be since it has changed to each resort's manager to decide if they want to provide the discount. Dirty members can also save their points (at not cost unlike HGVC). Metal members get X amount of free guest certificates a year whereas a dirty point owner has to pay for them (like a metal member who has used up their free ones) for $35 per certificate. Of course, with Diamond, you can make a family member or friend an Associate member on your account and reservations for those folks don't count against your guest certificates (as they are part of your account).


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> However, I believe that goal is to merge the collections and get owners to benefit as much as possible from the entire timeshare system.  To do that they need to experience each others collections, buy more points in one of the timeshares, pay reservation fees, get the benefits of the merger and rave about the new HGVC system to get others to buy into the system.



Unfortunately, I don't think you will find a Diamond member "raving" about the HGVC system since, compared to Diamond, HGVC kind of nickel and dimes y'all to death, IMHO.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Hubble said:


> My favorite Diamond resort is the Royal Regency in Paris.  No sales presentation.  VA Beach and Williamsburg were nice, but the sales people were brutal.  I understand they have outrageous resort fees now, so would never consider staying there.



Resort fees are only charged on non-Diamond reservations. That being said, if a Diamond owner decided to book a Diamond resort via II/RCI/Booking.com/etc..., they would be charge the resort fees even though they are owners. I would ASSUME, once the merger is complete, that HGVC owners would not be charged the resort fees on an HGVC reservation (considering y'all bought us and not vice versa).

Yes, the location of the Royal Regency is awesome for visiting Paris. IMO, you should also try Palazzo Soriano for visiting Rome or Alpine Club for visiting Salzburg and the Eagle's Nest.

FYI, the sales team at VA Beach and Williamsburg are kittens compared to the sales folk at the KBC.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

CalGalTraveler said:


> I appreciate your thoughts on timing. Very interesting. As indicated on this thread, there are more DRI locations than HI and Tahoe that would be of interest to HGVC owners:  Cabo Azul, Sedona, Embarc (esp. Palm Desert, Whistler), Perhaps VA Beach (for East Coast owners), Paris.
> 
> The challenge is that today the "premium" portfolio, HGVC, has fewer locations than the DRI portfolio. IMO...unless the cost of enrollment is low, it will be difficult to upsell DRI trust owners just on quality alone especially if most HGVC resorts are in the same locations as DRI unless they expand the portfolio and assure more availabilty.
> 
> We've heard a lot about properties that HGVC owners would like to visit. *Are there any HGVC properties that DRI owners would like to visit?*
> 
> In addition, if DRI owners are given the same 9 month club as HGVC this will cause much dissatisfaction in the HGVC base as more people (DRI upsell and HGVC) will be competing for limited premium HGVC inventory unless the DRI upsell brings a commensurate amount of premium VOIs (e.g. prime weeks in HI, Cabo Tahoe, Sedona) out of the trust and they become affiliate reservations available to HGVC club reservations to expand the pool of quality resort VOIs. Otherwise you have more owners competing for a finite pool of quality VOIs thus shrinking club opportunity for all.
> 
> We should also consider that HGVC is also competing with MVC which has many locations with MVC standard high quality. Although HGVC portfolio doesn't need to have as many locations as MVC, they will need to take steps to add in key locations. Perhaps adding Embarc, and weeks from HI and Cabo Azul and Sedona to the HGVC portfolio will be a first step?



Strictly, IMO, HGVC offers very few locations that Diamond doesn't already have. I find the resorts Diamond offers to be plenty good enough for my needs so no, there aren't any HGVC properties that I would care to visit. Especially when that most likely would only be available with some type of upgrade or purchase to make my Diamond points eligible for use in HGVC.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

ccwu said:


> I assume the exchange between DRI resorts and HGV would be like RCI or II exchange. Dri members will get what HGV members willing to deposit into the system that Dri club member could use club reservation to get the HGV resorts. So does HGV will be able to use the Rci portal to get Dri member deposited.
> 
> As being HGV member, we are not restricted to HGV resorts. We con convert points to HHONOR points to stay at world wide Hilton hotels. I assume Dri club members might be able to convert their points to HGV or HHonor points in return to reserve either Hilton hotels or HGV timeshares. You do lose the value by converting. I think the exchange portal is thru your own club portal just like HGV uses Rci to exchange. So if Dri dirty points owner can not use Dri club portal, I wonder if they would be able to exchange into HGV. Unless you own a HGV deed that would give you HGV points, you would be restricted to use your own club reservation.
> 
> HGV Maui resort is opening pretty soon. Most members go to Maui using either Rci exchange or using Hilton hotels. (I personally prefer Maui Waldorf Astoria).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That would require Diamond converting their access to RCI. Until 31 Dec 2020, we accessed II for exchanges outside of Diamond and they just recently revamped DEX for point owners and moved all of us to DEX and dropped II. Owners could continue utilizing II if they wished but would have to pay for their own II membership instead of having it included in their maint fees.


----------



## Zenichiro

Does anyone know if Diamond owns Teton Club? I’d definitely trade for that when we visit Yellowstone.


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## CalGalTraveler

Fried_shrimp said:


> Unfortunately, I don't think you will find a Diamond member "raving" about the HGVC system since, compared to Diamond, HGVC kind of nickel and dimes y'all to death, IMHO.




IDK...When the potential merger with HGVC was announced in late 2019 I started a poll in the Diamond Forum asking about owner happiness with the Diamond System since I knew zero about Diamond. Almost 60% (58.5%) of Diamond Owners said they were neutral or unhappy with Diamond. Not a good sat score for Diamond. 









						How Happy Are You With Your Diamond Ownership?
					

Would love to hear from Diamond Owners. If we are missing a major category, please let let me know.  Also please add in the comments what you own and why you voted the way you did.




					tugbbs.com


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## CalGalTraveler

@Fried_shrimp FYI to contrast, here is the happiness poll for HGVC owners (28% neutral/unhappy HGVC vs. 58% neutral/unhappy Diamond).


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## Fried_shrimp

CalGalTraveler said:


> IDK...When the potential merger with HGVC was announced in late 2019 I started a poll in the Diamond Forum asking about owner happiness with the Diamond System since I knew zero about Diamond. Almost 60% (58.5%) of Diamond Owners said they were neutral or unhappy with Diamond. Not a good sat score for Diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Happy Are You With Your Diamond Ownership?
> 
> 
> Would love to hear from Diamond Owners. If we are missing a major category, please let let me know.  Also please add in the comments what you own and why you voted the way you did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 33646



I would be one of those top voters. I am very happy with my point ownership (14 years with Diamond now ever since they took over Sunterra). IMO, most of the people that are unhappy with Diamond are because of sales meetings where they were told half truths and some even lies and they bought into those lies. Also, I have found that many people buy because of some expected benefit and not because of wanting to travel more with Diamond and again, IMO, that is the absolute worst reason to make a purchase as a benefit can be changed or gotten rid of at the blink of an eye.

Any questions you have about Diamond I'd be happy to answer.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

CalGalTraveler said:


> @Fried_shrimp FYI to contrast, here is the happiness poll for HGVC owners (28% neutral/unhappy HGVC vs. 58% neutral/unhappy Diamond).
> 
> View attachment 33649



HGVC owners knew what they were getting into (regarding fees) when they purchased HGVC. Depending on how the merger goes, if Diamond owners are saddled with those same fees we would be very upset as we don't pay them at this time.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

CalGalTraveler said:


> IDK...When the potential merger with HGVC was announced in late 2019 I started a poll in the Diamond Forum asking about owner happiness with the Diamond System since I knew zero about Diamond. Almost 60% (58.5%) of Diamond Owners said they were neutral or unhappy with Diamond. Not a good sat score for Diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Happy Are You With Your Diamond Ownership?
> 
> 
> Would love to hear from Diamond Owners. If we are missing a major category, please let let me know.  Also please add in the comments what you own and why you voted the way you did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tugbbs.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 33646



To note: Embarq owners have nothing to do with Diamond and their owners other than paying their maint fees to Diamond. The two companies were never merged so Diamond has no access to Embarq resorts and vice versa unless exchanging through II.


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## CalGalTraveler

Fried_shrimp said:


> HGVC owners knew what they were getting into (regarding fees) when they purchased HGVC. Depending on how the merger goes, if Diamond owners are saddled with those same fees we would be very upset as we don't pay them at this time.



My crystal ball doesn't tell me exactly how they will structure. However one thing is certain. They need to pay for the debt acquired from the merger, the merger costs of re-branding, training staff, and IT, and upgrading DRI resorts to HGVC quality. They need to get the revenue from somewhere to pay for this.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

CalGalTraveler said:


> My crystal ball doesn't tell me exactly how they will structure. However one thing is certain. They need to pay for the debt acquired from the merger, the merger costs of re-branding, training staff, and IT, and upgrading DRI resorts to HGVC quality. They need to get the revenue from somewhere to pay for this.



There are many who theorize that Diamond's resorts won't be upgraded/branded HGVC. I agree that HGVC will need to get revenue from somewhere but if they expect Diamond owners to pony up, I'm afraid that a lot of them will just decide to walk since the value to stay won't be there (yes, I am one of those people). That would not be good for the HOA or HGVC to have a ton of extra units with no maint fees coming in on them. And unfortunately, they communicated the sale but no plan to go with the sale which makes a lot of folks on this side of the fence very nervous.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Fried_shrimp said:


> There are many who theorize that Diamond's resorts won't be upgraded/branded HGVC. I agree that HGVC will need to get revenue from somewhere but if they expect Diamond owners to pony up, I'm afraid that a lot of them will just decide to walk since the value to stay won't be there (yes, I am one of those people). That would not be good for the HOA or HGVC to have a ton of extra units with no maint fees coming in on them. And unfortunately, they communicated the sale but no plan to go with the sale which makes a lot of folks on this side of the fence very nervous.



Who knows? Maybe they will offer low-cost deedbacks or upgrades to "dirty" resale deeded and points owners at desired resorts in order to obtain cheap inventory for the portfolio and give them equal access rights as developer purchases. There seems to be pent-up demand for this since Diamond made these distinctions. If there are 100k users and charge $1000 to enroll or deedback, that's an easy $100 million.

Remember, as long as the quality is upgraded to Hilton standards, HGVC can place inventory they own on Hilton.com and earn rental revenue until the property is purchased. So walking away is not as big an issue as with Diamond which didn't have a hotel portal for marketing and rentals.


----------



## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> Unfortunately, I don't think you will find a Diamond member "raving" about the HGVC system since, compared to Diamond, HGVC kind of nickel and dimes y'all to death, IMHO.



I think there’s a misunderstanding here. Yes, there’s fees, but you only pay for them if you use them. Many members buy in a specific location to go there during that week. Those that use their home week pay no extra fees. None, zilch, nada. Why would someone want to just use their home week? So they get to go where they bought. Those desirable weeks come at a high upfront up cost, especially from the developer. If you are going to pay that much, you want some assurancesthat you can get what you pay for.

My MF’s and club dues were ~$1225 this year. I used my points for a week in Hilton head. Now, I‘m using a free booking I made last May and just moved the dat until I found what I want. I would have paid $67 last year (the fees went down this year) so I’m getting a week at Ocean Oak on Hilton Head Island for ~$1300, all fees included (I’m adding what I would have paid if I didn’t take advantage of the free booking). I’m not sure what the MF’s and costs are for a Diamond, but I’m completely happy with my costs. HGVC MF’s are generally some of the lowest out if major chain system. If you are using your points for hotel like stays, you will pay more. Then again, there’s members like us that take longer family trips. You pay for what you use.

I empathize with your position. You built a portfolio to take advantage of the system. If nothing else, the not knowing would increase my anxiety. The only thing I can say is that I have seen first hand how HGVC treats their owners. They have been very good to us and the core of our system has remained in place. While my guess is there will be changes, I believe they will try to keep you happy. If you don’t like the changes to the system, you will have options.


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## Fried_shrimp

CalGalTraveler said:


> Who knows? Maybe they will offer low-cost deedbacks or upgrades to "dirty" resale deeded and points owners at desired resorts in order to obtain cheap inventory for the portfolio and give them equal access rights as developer purchases. There seems to be pent-up demand for this since Diamond made these distinctions. If there are 100k users and charge $1000 to enroll or deedback, that's an easy $100 million.
> 
> Remember, as long as the quality is upgraded to Hilton standards, HGVC can place inventory they own on Hilton.com and earn rental revenue until the property is purchased. So walking away is not as big an issue as with Diamond which didn't have a hotel portal for marketing and rentals.



Diamond rents out unsold inventory all the time (via Booking.com and Redweek.com and we even have our own portal https://www.diamondresortsandhotels.com/ , it's just not as well known as Hilton's) but the problem is that it can't be guaranteed like it is with maint fees. I was speaking with a VP in Orlando this past summer and Diamond had a big spike in unpaid maint fees due to Covid and it was really starting to hurt.

You're right, who knows? I can only say what I will do and what others on my FB site have stated. Many have stated that if we, as Diamond owners, are forced to utilize HGVC rules (pay for exchanges in network, pay to save points, 3 night minimum instead of 2 nights), we will walk away. I've been an owner for 32 years (part of Diamond since Diamond acquired Sunterra 14 years ago) and I feel I have gotten my monies worth out of my investment. I am not going to throw good money after bad and one of the two primary reasons for me converting me fixed weeks to points was because I was tired of paying every increasing RCI exchange fees (the other being able to finally do 2 night weekend stays instead of just a whole week). To be forced back into that would be a slap in the face to me and I would rather walk than play under HGVC rules. As I said before, y'all knew what to expect when you purchased into HGVC. We didn't have a say. If HGVC allows Diamond to be Diamond with some cross utilization, that's fine and dandy and I'm sure we'll get along nicely. If HGVC tries to integrate us completely with y'alls rules, you'll probably hear a lot of hollering from this side of the fence.

Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> I think there’s a misunderstanding here. Yes, there’s fees, but you only pay for them if you use them. Many members buy in a specific location to go there during that week. Those that use their home week pay no extra fees. None, zilch, nada. Why would someone want to just use their home week? So they get to go where they bought. Those desirable weeks come at a high upfront up cost, especially from the developer. If you are going to pay that much, you want some assurancesthat you can get what you pay for.
> 
> My MF’s and club dues were ~$1225 this year. I used my points for a week in Hilton head. Now, I‘m using a free booking I made last May and just moved the dat until I found what I want. I would have paid $67 last year (the fees went down this year) so I’m getting a week at Ocean Oak on Hilton Head Island for ~$1300, all fees included (I’m adding what I would have paid if I didn’t take advantage of the free booking). I’m not sure what the MF’s and costs are for a Diamond, but I’m completely happy with my costs. HGVC MF’s are generally some of the lowest out if major chain system. If you are using your points for hotel like stays, you will pay more. Then again, there’s members like us that take longer family trips. You pay for what you use.
> 
> I empathize with your position. You built a portfolio to take advantage of the system. If nothing else, the not knowing would increase my anxiety. The only thing I can say is that I have seen first hand how HGVC treats their owners. They have been very good to us and the core of our system has remained in place. While my guess is there will be changes, I believe they will try to keep you happy. If you don’t like the changes to the system, you will have options.



This is one of the differences. Y'all reference everything by your underlying deed where you own at. For us, there is no underlying deed. Since I am in the US Collection, there are 55 resorts that are my "Home" resort.....as such. And as a Club member, I can access any Diamond managed resort without an exchange fee (just different booking windows). Now, they could come up with a rule that Diamond owners wouldn't have to pay an exchange fee if booking in our own collection (which would be fine with me as I rarely go out of collection anyway) but that still would devalue the Diamond ownership for many of our members (the Latino Collection is the smallest at only 1 resort in collection and the US is the largest with 55).

Yes, I am familiar with Fixed or Home week usage. Did that for the first 18 years of ownership. And I enjoy going back to what was my home resort quite often. But for the last 14 years, I have also been able to enjoy going to almost 400 other resorts as well without paying an exchange fee so why would we ever want to go back to just 1 resort that can be used without extra fees? Kind of like giving up your car and getting a horse to go back and forth to work with.

Just for reference, my maint fees last year were about $8,900 and I got about 100 nights usage out of them (mostly 2 bdrm units as we have travel buddies we take almost everywhere).

That is exactly my concern. We don't know where this is going and we also purchased out portfolio based on how the system worked. I'm hoping HGVC realizes that and kind of leaves us alone other than making some kind of cross connection ability so y'all can utilize our resorts as well. I think that would be the best outcome but as CalGirl stated, who knows? That's the hardest part.


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## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> This is one of the differences. Y'all reference everything by your underlying deed where you own at. For us, there is no underlying deed. Since I am in the US Collection, there are 55 resorts that are my "Home" resort.....as such. And as a Club member, I can access any Diamond managed resort without an exchange fee (just different booking windows). Now, they could come up with a rule that Diamond owners wouldn't have to pay an exchange fee if booking in our own collection (which would be fine with me as I rarely go out of collection anyway) but that still would devalue the Diamond ownership for many of our members (the Latino Collection is the smallest at only 1 resort in collection and the US is the largest with 55).
> 
> Yes, I am familiar with Fixed or Home week usage. Did that for the first 18 years of ownership. And I enjoy going back to what was my home resort quite often. But for the last 14 years, I have also been able to enjoy going to almost 400 other resorts as well without paying an exchange fee so why would we ever want to go back to just 1 resort that can be used without extra fees? Kind of like giving up your car and getting a horse to go back and forth to work with.
> 
> Just for reference, my maint fees last year were about $8,900 and I got about 100 nights usage out of them (mostly 2 bdrm units as we have travel buddies we take almost everywhere).
> 
> That is exactly my concern. We don't know where this is going and we also purchased out portfolio based on how the system worked. I'm hoping HGVC realizes that and kind of leaves us alone other than making some kind of cross connection ability so y'all can utilize our resorts as well. I think that would be the best outcome but as CalGirl stated, who knows? That's the hardest part.



Yup, the waiting and not knowing is the hardest part. I know when that happens to me, my mind just runs through every possible bad scenario. I wind up having to walk away from the issue until my brain settles.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Fried_shrimp said:


> If HGVC tries to integrate us completely with y'alls rules, you'll probably hear a lot of hollering from this side of the fence.
> 
> Just my 2 cents worth.



I also empathize with your concerns because there are so many unknowns.  As publicly traded entities, neither company can talk to you individually without risking disclosing insider information until the deal is completed this summer.

As @dayooper said, HGV is an ethical company and has high standards. For example, when many developers were not accommodating owners when Covid hit, HGVC had the most flexible policy of their peers so that people would not lose the use of their points.

They have already indicated publicly that they plan on running two programs aimed at two demographics: HGVC and HVC (Diamond). Hopefully this should allay some of your concerns. There may be some adjustments to align policies and finding ways to make money, but I doubt they would make drastic changes that would upset a large part of the owner base. They want to sell to the base.

As long as Diamond/Apollo management is not put in key HGV management roles (other than managing Diamond (HGV) portfolio), I am confident that HGV senior management will figure it out.


----------



## bakera

Fried_shrimp said:


> I'm sorry but that is incorrect. Status is only gained when being a member of The Club and dirty points are not in The Club and have none of the benefits of The Club. Dirty points can (used to be at least) cleaned but unless that was done at some point in time, dirty points grant no privileges in the The Club.


Maybe this is something specific with the EU Collection, but I can guarantee you that we’ve never paid anything to ‘clean’ our resale points and we are most definitely Gold Elite members.


----------



## bakera

Fried_shrimp said:


> Strictly, IMO, HGVC offers very few locations that Diamond doesn't already have. I find the resorts Diamond offers to be plenty good enough for my needs so no, there aren't any HGVC properties that I would care to visit. Especially when that most likely would only be available with some type of upgrade or purchase to make my Diamond points eligible for use in HGVC.


I totally agree.  I was initially really excited of merging with HGVC, until I saw they list of resorts.  The only one that interests me is the one in Italy.  The Scottish ones are nice, but were always fairly easy exchange with II and I personally think that Diamonds Kenmore Club is a much better location.


----------



## bakera

The following details the number of weeks held in trust at each resort within the EU Collection.


----------



## escanoe

My bet (as discussed earlier in this behemoth of a thread) is that DEX will be playing a larger role in the future for us on both ends of the merger. I don't think there is much we know about how this will play out .... but that it one thing I am kind of excited about. I am hoping each end of the merger can book in the other's through DEX and pay much lower exchange fees than RCI and avoid paying each other's resort fees.



Fried_shrimp said:


> That would require Diamond converting their access to RCI. Until 31 Dec 2020, we accessed II for exchanges outside of Diamond and they just recently revamped DEX for point owners and moved all of us to DEX and dropped II. Owners could continue utilizing II if they wished but would have to pay for their own II membership instead of having it included in their maint fees.


----------



## bakera

escanoe said:


> My bet (as discussed earlier in this behemoth of a thread) is that DEX will be playing a larger role in the future for us on both ends of the merger. I don't think there is much we know about how this will play out .... but it is one thing I am kind of excited about. I am hoping each end of the merger can book in the other's through DEX and pay much lower exchange fees than RCI and avoid paying each other's resort fees.


Forget DEX.  As an EU Collection points owner the number of points required to exchange is far higher than through II.  I cannot see any benefit of DEX.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> Maybe this is something specific with the EU Collection, but I can guarantee you that we’ve never paid anything to ‘clean’ our resale points and we are most definitely Gold Elite members.



I really don't know much about the EU Collection other than they closed all of their sales centers several years ago and they have some nice resorts which I have had the pleasure of staying at. In the US, Hawaii, and Latino Collections, one had to purchase at least 50% developer points to clean their dirty points.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> I totally agree.  I was initially really excited of merging with HGVC, until I saw they list of resorts.  The only one that interests me is the one in Italy.  The Scottish ones are nice, but were always fairly easy exchange with II and I personally think that Diamonds Kenmore Club is a much better location.



Have you visited either of the two resorts in Soriano? While not fancy per say, very nice resorts and close to Rome and the Tuscan wineries. I enjoyed my time there and hope to go back again next year......if they are still available for us to use.


----------



## dayooper

bakera said:


> Forget DEX.  As an EU Collection points owner the number of points required to exchange is far higher than through II.  I cannot see any benefit of DEX.



Unless they change the points amounts. Having that already in place might make it easier to exchange between the two systems. HGVC has to have some sort of mechanism to get HVC (Diamond owners) to come to HGVC resorts and upsale. HGVC does deposits weeks into RCI so they can sell to them. My guess is they will do the same with DEX. Entice them with the gifts and make their pitch. Sell the HVC to the new owners and have them trade in their ownership for a more expensive one. Obviously, the savy DRI owners won’t fall for it, but that’s how HGVC makes their case.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

escanoe said:


> My bet (as discussed earlier in this behemoth of a thread) is that DEX will be playing a larger role in the future for us on both ends of the merger. I don't think there is much we know about how this will play out .... but it is one thing I am kind of excited about. I am hoping each end of the merger can book in the other's through DEX and pay much lower exchange fees than RCI and avoid paying each other's resort fees.



And I was thinking DEX would go away since Hilton already utilizes RCI which is what most of the DEX properties fall under. Granted, the exchange fees are cheaper with DEX compared to RCI and it's possible HGVC could disassociate with RCI the way Diamond did with II last year and both sides use DEX (HEX maybe....lol). So many possibilities could happen. Anyone want to flip a quarter??


----------



## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> The following details the number of weeks held in trust at each resort within the EU Collection.View attachment 33653



How did it work for your trust owners when Diamond unloaded some of the EU Collection resorts (such as the 3 they held in Ireland)?


----------



## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> Forget DEX.  As an EU Collection points owner the number of points required to exchange is far higher than through II.  I cannot see any benefit of DEX.



If you haven't looked in the past month or so, some of the point values of the resorts have decreased. I agree, they were stupidly astronomical when they first came out with Studios, 1 bdrm, and 2 bdrm units going for the same price pointwise at the same resort during the same week.


----------



## Hubble

Fried_shrimp said:


> This is one of the differences. Y'all reference everything by your underlying deed where you own at. For us, there is no underlying deed. Since I am in the US Collection, there are 55 resorts that are my "Home" resort.....as such. And as a Club member, I can access any Diamond managed resort without an exchange fee (just different booking windows). Now, they could come up with a rule that Diamond owners wouldn't have to pay an exchange fee if booking in our own collection (which would be fine with me as I rarely go out of collection anyway) but that still would devalue the Diamond ownership for many of our members (the Latino Collection is the smallest at only 1 resort in collection and the US is the largest with 55).
> 
> Yes, I am familiar with Fixed or Home week usage. Did that for the first 18 years of ownership. And I enjoy going back to what was my home resort quite often. But for the last 14 years, I have also been able to enjoy going to almost 400 other resorts as well without paying an exchange fee so why would we ever want to go back to just 1 resort that can be used without extra fees? Kind of like giving up your car and getting a horse to go back and forth to work with.
> 
> Just for reference, my maint fees last year were about $8,900 and I got about 100 nights usage out of them (mostly 2 bdrm units as we have travel buddies we take almost everywhere).
> 
> That is exactly my concern. We don't know where this is going and we also purchased out portfolio based on how the system worked. I'm hoping HGVC realizes that and kind of leaves us alone other than making some kind of cross connection ability so y'all can utilize our resorts as well. I think that would be the best outcome but as CalGirl stated, who knows? That's the hardest part.



It sounds as if things are working out well for you.  I wasn't terribly happy with things, and did the "Transitions" thing last year after 6 years of ownership (VA Beach, via Gold Key).   We had kept our deeded week despite all sorts of pressure to convert, mainly because they wanted 12-14K to make their minimum, and it all felt like extortion.  Things worked out well for a time, and we enjoyed Getaways and the Interval exchanges were all reasonable.  I considered the Diamond Xchange system, but their inventory seems slanted to the West, and most of the Eastern places we've been to many times.  Maybe I'll regret it, but I'm okay with the decision for now.


----------



## escanoe

DEX at this point appears to be a way for Diamond to handle exchanges between Diamond owners internally and a sophisticated portal to RCI for everything else. Over time I could see it standing on its own as an exchange without working through RCI.

I see opportunity for HGV here. And with Club Wyndham owning RCI, they have every incentive to compete rather than increasing their dependency (and sharing of customer data) with a gigantic competitor.

One more point: HGV owning Diamond puts them in a place where they are more directly competing with Wyndham instead of simply being the main supplier of upscale inventory to RCI, and not competing all that much with Club Wyndham on sales.



Fried_shrimp said:


> And I was thinking DEX would go away since Hilton already utilizes RCI which is what most of the DEX properties fall under. Granted, the exchange fees are cheaper with DEX compared to RCI and it's possible HGVC could disassociate with RCI the way Diamond did with II last year and both sides use DEX (HEX maybe....lol). So many possibilities could happen. Anyone want to flip a quarter??


----------



## Eric B

escanoe said:


> One more point: *HGV owning Wyndham* puts them in a place where they are more directly competing with Wyndham instead of simply being the main supplier of upscale inventory to RCI, and not competing all that much with Club Wyndham on sales.



???


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Hubble said:


> It sounds as if things are working out well for you.  I wasn't terribly happy with things, and did the "Transitions" thing last year after 6 years of ownership (VA Beach, via Gold Key).   We had kept our deeded week despite all sorts of pressure to convert, mainly because they wanted 12-14K to make their minimum, and it all felt like extortion.  Things worked out well for a time, and we enjoyed Getaways and the Interval exchanges were all reasonable.  I considered the Diamond Xchange system, but their inventory seems slanted to the West, and most of the Eastern places we've been to many times.  Maybe I'll regret it, but I'm okay with the decision for now.



Things "were" going well for me.  The future remains to be seen.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

escanoe said:


> DEX at this point appears to be a way for Diamond to handle exchanges between Diamond owners internally and a sophisticated portal to RCI for everything else. Over time I could see it standing on its own as an exchange without working through RCI.
> 
> I see opportunity for HGV here. And with Club Wyndham owning RCI, they have every incentive to compete rather than increasing their dependency (and sharing of customer data) with a gigantic competitor.
> 
> One more point: HGV owning Wyndham puts them in a place where they are more directly competing with Wyndham instead of simply being the main supplier of upscale inventory to RCI, and not competing all that much with Club Wyndham on sales.



DEX is how Diamond week owners handle exchanges. Point owners use the Diamond site and DEX is pushed as a way to save points for 5 years if you can't use your points in a given year. I don't know of a single point owner who has used DEX yet.


----------



## escanoe

Eric B said:


> ???


Meant Diamond/DRI instead of Wyndham at the beginning of that section. I have edited the original post.


----------



## bakera

Fried_shrimp said:


> Have you visited either of the two resorts in Soriano? While not fancy per say, very nice resorts and close to Rome and the Tuscan wineries. I enjoyed my time there and hope to go back again next year......if they are still available for us to use.


Yes, twice.  Beautiful area.  The second visit was during the annual Chestnut Festival - but we like to try new places.


----------



## bakera

Fried_shrimp said:


> How did it work for your trust owners when Diamond unloaded some of the EU Collection resorts (such as the 3 they held in Ireland)?


The three Irish resorts were never in the trust.  We had a great time in Ireland when the resorts were first made available, but all three resorts are very close to each other and it’s the kind of destination that you only need to d9 once.  The resorts that hurt when they removed them were Carlton Court (London) and Broome Park (Kent).  These were two of our favourites.  They added extra weeks in other locations to maintain the availability but it doesn’t make up for the loss of the resorts.


----------



## bakera

Fried_shrimp said:


> If you haven't looked in the past month or so, some of the point values of the resorts have decreased. I agree, they were stupidly astronomical when they first came out with Studios, 1 bdrm, and 2 bdrm units going for the same price pointwise at the same resort during the same week.


I‘ve not looked for a while, but will now.  What got me was that it appeared to be the same points year round.


----------



## frank808

Fried_shrimp said:


> This is one of the differences. Y'all reference everything by your underlying deed where you own at. For us, there is no underlying deed. Since I am in the US Collection, there are 55 resorts that are my "Home" resort.....as such. And as a Club member, I can access any Diamond managed resort without an exchange fee (just different booking windows). Now, they could come up with a rule that Diamond owners wouldn't have to pay an exchange fee if booking in our own collection (which would be fine with me as I rarely go out of collection anyway) but that still would devalue the Diamond ownership for many of our members (the Latino Collection is the smallest at only 1 resort in collection and the US is the largest with 55).
> 
> But for the last 14 years, I have also been able to enjoy going to almost 400 other resorts as well without paying an exchange fee so why would we ever want to go back to just 1 resort that can be used without extra fees? Kind of like giving up your car and getting a horse to go back and forth to work with.



Just wondering how did you visit 400 other resorts witouut paying exchange fee? I didn't know diamond owned 400 resorts. 

If they are brining in 400 resorts then diamond is larger than Marriott, westin and Hilton timeshares combined. That is awesome that hgvc acquired diamond then.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## Fried_shrimp

frank808 said:


> Just wondering how did you visit 400 other resorts witouut paying exchange fee? I didn't know diamond owned 400 resorts.
> 
> If they are brining in 400 resorts then diamond is larger than Marriott, westin and Hilton timeshares combined. That is awesome that hgvc acquired diamond then.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk



Diamond doesn't own (manage) 400 resorts. Diamond manages about 100 resorts and was affiliated with about 300 other resorts/hotels. Anything booked through the Diamond portal had no exchange fees. Only if you go outside the Diamond portal through II or DEX was there an exchange fee. So I would just go on the Diamond portal, find a place I wanted to go and book it with just my points. Booked two weekends last night for next Jan/Feb (get it while the getting's good) and didn't spend an extra penny. Now some say those exchange fees are embedded in out maint fees and that might be true but I don't have to worry about spending any extra money booking locations as long as I stayed inside of the Diamond portal.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> I‘ve not looked for a while, but will now.  What got me was that it appeared to be the same points year round.



DEX is far from being perfected as I still quite often see a Studio/1 bdrm/2 bdrm at the same resort, same week for the same price in points but I do see some variance in weeks at different times of the year and I also see a LOT more in the 6,000 to 8,000 point range whereas almost everything (around 90+%) was max 12,000 points when they first showed us DEX.


----------



## frank808

Fried_shrimp said:


> Diamond doesn't own (manage) 400 resorts. Diamond manages about 100 resorts and was affiliated with about 300 other resorts/hotels. Anything booked through the Diamond portal had no exchange fees. Only if you go outside the Diamond portal through II or DEX was there an exchange fee. So I would just go on the Diamond portal, find a place I wanted to go and book it with just my points. Booked two weekends last night for next Jan/Feb (get it while the getting's good) and didn't spend an extra penny. Now some say those exchange fees are embedded in out maint fees and that might be true but I don't have to worry about spending any extra money booking locations as long as I stayed inside of the Diamond portal.



Thanks for the explanation. So in essence it was their own trading company.

Why did Diamond start DEX(another internal trading arm) if they already had trading through internal exchanges?

Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


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## nuwermj

CalGalTraveler said:


> My crystal ball doesn't tell me exactly how they will structure. However one thing is certain. They need to pay for the debt acquired from the merger, the merger costs of re-branding, training staff, and IT, and upgrading DRI resorts to HGVC quality. They need to get the revenue from somewhere to pay for this.



I think Mark Wang has addressed this. First, they expect $125 million added to the combined bottom line through backoffice cost saving. Next, they expect to use the Hilton Hotel customer database as the marketing channel to sell the rebranded Diamond Club. The two clubs do not need to be integrated to bring this about. 

Currently 80% of Diamond sales are  made to current owners. Diamond was built on the a stratgey of incremental sales. Only 20% of DRI sales are made to new customers. Wall Street has never been fond of this strategy and discounted DRI for it in the days before Apollo. HGV, according to Wang, sells about 50-50; half of sales are made to current owners, half to new owners. Wall Street prefers that ratio. (50-50 is also Marriott's goal; they were 60-40 before the the pandemic.) This is why rebranding is a priority. Hilton resticts the use of their database to the Hilton brand.


----------



## nuwermj

Fried_shrimp said:


> How did it work for your trust owners when Diamond unloaded some of the EU Collection resorts (such as the 3 they held in Ireland)?



The Ireland resorts were never held in the EU Trust. They were affiliates. Diamond leased them for a specified number of years and didn't renew the leases.

But, to the broader question, at say Le Manoir des Deux Amants in Normandy, France all the deeds were withdrawn from the trust fund and sold as inventory along with the developer's rights and the management contract to a new company. After that, EU members and THE Club members were no longer permitted to make reservations at that location. White Sands Country Club, Benal Beach, Garden Lago, and Broom Park are other locations that have been sold.


----------



## nuwermj

frank808 said:


> Thanks for the explanation. So in essence it was their own trading company.
> 
> Why did Diamond start DEX(another internal trading arm) if they already had trading through internal exchanges?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk



Destination Exchange is a traditional exchange system where use rights must be deposited and those deposits form the inventory. Although THE Club is a propriety exchange company it gets most of its inventory from the trust funds that affiliate with it. The remainder of the inventory is deposited, but the deposits are made by developers, not members.


----------



## nuwermj

Zenichiro said:


> Does anyone know if Diamond owns Teton Club? I’d definitely trade for that when we visit Yellowstone.



Diamond does not. Raintree owns that one. Diamond has an affiliation with Raintree so Diamond can make it available to its members.


----------



## tschwa2

frank808 said:


> Thanks for the explanation. So in essence it was their own trading company.
> 
> Why did Diamond start DEX(another internal trading arm) if they already had trading through internal exchanges?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk


DEX allows money that would have gone to II to go back to them.  Membership dues from points members were paying for annual II membership.  Now without a reduction in membership fees, the II membership is no longer included but they are paying DEX for a membership.  Also some of the Diamond controlled HOA are now paying for a DEX membership out of MF's so even if you aren't a points member but own a deeded week at a diamond managed resort even if you have no desire to use DEX you are paying fees that go to DEX and therefore Diamond.  In addition to the membership fees that apply whether these members use it or not, Diamond makes money through fees everytime a diamond member actually uses DEX.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

frank808 said:


> Thanks for the explanation. So in essence it was their own trading company.
> 
> Why did Diamond start DEX(another internal trading arm) if they already had trading through internal exchanges?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk



In essence, HGVC is it's own trading company as well, for HGVC properties. The difference is that HGVC charges you an exchange fee (reservation fee) to book outside of your single home resort. Diamond does not as long as you are booking through the Diamond portal at Diamond managed or affiliated resorts so we could book to almost 400 locations exchange free.

DEX was originally created to allow legacy week owners book at other locations. Legacy week owners do not have access to the Diamond portal because that is strictly for point owners (kind of like RCI having it's separate week/point sides of the website). The purpose was to give legacy week owners a cheaper alternative to RCI/II and for Diamond to keep those exchange fees from it's owners instead of sending it to RCI/II. DEX was originally started around 2013/2014. In 2020, Diamond decided to cancel it's affiliation with II effective 31 Dec 2020 and modified DEX so that points owners could utilize it. Also, DEX was modified to allow point owners to save points on a 2,000 increment basis for 5 years instead of the 1 year through the Diamond portal. The only problem, at least initially, is that the point values were set way to high for a week somewhere but they have been adjusting that as DEX went live for point owners this year. DEX is mostly based off of RCI inventory so it did open a lot of new areas for Diamond owners to go to.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

nuwermj said:


> The Ireland resorts were never held in the EU Trust. They were affiliates. Diamond leased them for a specified number of years and didn't renew the leases.
> 
> But, to the broader question, at say Le Manoir des Deux Amants in Normandy, France all the deeds were withdrawn from the trust fund and sold as inventory along with the developer's rights and the management contract to a new company. After that, EU members and THE Club members were no longer permitted to make reservations at that location. White Sands Country Club, Benal Beach, Garden Lago, and Broom Park are other locations that have been sold.



But didn't they have to replace that inventory so the Trust wouldn't be oversold?


----------



## Tamaradarann

dougp26364 said:


> Simply put, the goal is to enhance the owners experience by getting then to pay more for the experience.
> 
> I’m hoping for a simple, relatively inexpensive, joiner fee. What I expect is a minimum purchase requirement. I’m not saying I wouldn’t buy more. I am saying at this point I wouldn’t be excited about it either.



 Of course the ultimate goal is to bring in more revenue, but stategizing how that is the issue. 

We know that all timeshare companies pay many dollars to get people to come to presentations so they can sell timeshares.  They even put perspective buyers up in accomodations so that they can experience the resort before they try to sell to them.  By allowing HGVC and DRI owners to use their points to make reservations in the system they don't own they expand their perspective market base to sell to without having to market to get the perspective buyers to come to the resort and put them up in accomodations.  The sales staff will need to be retrained to sell different way to these perspective buyers just like the sales pitch is different for current owners versus non owners. 

I don't thnk that owners in one system using their points in the other system should be allowed to reserve at the 9 or 10 month mark that owners of that system can.  Perhaps being able to make reservations at the 3 or 6 month mark will be permitted.  Those using points to reserve in the system that they don't own may pay a higher reservation fee than owners of that system which will also bring in more revenue.   While it could be higher, it shouldn't be as high as RCI.   

I don't believe you will have to pay anything to join the system if you are in one of the two timeshare systems.  However, if you want to become member of the club you don't own in you will have to buy a timeshare in that system!


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Fried_shrimp said:


> But didn't they have to replace that inventory so the Trust wouldn't be oversold?


The European Trust operates under a very different set of requirements.  From the discussions that I have seen at the Diamond message board, I have a sense that might not be required.


----------



## Sandy VDH

Everything remains to be seen.  

I for one would hope that HGVC returns the All Inclusive membership fee structure, which is basically where DRI is at.  You may a higher Membership fee than we do now, but you get unlimited reservations, like DRI does not.  That would be an easy thing and the did offer this option in the past.  Now only bHC are offered this, so it is supported by the IT system today.  

Now the changing in Reservations windows.  NO idea how that would be changed.  It is a big enough change for both HGCVC and DRI members, so I have no idea which way they will go on this one. 

As far as what does DRI get for more locations, while they get some of the same locations, they do get either better properties or better locations.  But since I own Wyndham in addition to HGVC, I don't think getting DRI locations are a big win for me.

Patience Grasshopper, all will be revealed.


----------



## bakera

Fried_shrimp said:


> But didn't they have to replace that inventory so the Trust wouldn't be oversold?


If the trust was fully sold then they would have to.  Currently approx 1/3rd of the points held within the trust are unsold.  Diamond can do what they want with those.


----------



## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> In essence, HGVC is it's own trading company as well, for HGVC properties. The difference is that HGVC charges you an exchange fee (reservation fee) to book outside of your single home resort. Diamond does not as long as you are booking through the Diamond portal at Diamond managed or affiliated resorts so we could book to almost 400 locations exchange free.



Eh, how much are your club dues? HGVC club dues are $186. If I remember correctly, Diamond club dues are considerably more. Like $300-$400 more. If that's the case, for someone like you that takes many short stay trips, it works great. To those that use their points in a more traditional manner with longer stays, the HGVC method of paying for what you use is much more beneficial. Like @Sandy VDH says above, I would love to have unlimited free reservations. Currently for me, it would be less economical to pay higher club dues for unlimited reservations  as I only am making at most 2 reservations a year. As I accumulate more points, that may/will change and it might be better for me to pay more in club dues and have unlimited reservations.


----------



## nuwermj

Fried_shrimp said:


> But didn't they have to replace that inventory so the Trust wouldn't be oversold?



There is a one-to-one correspondence rule: every point must be backed by accommodations. But in the case of the EU Collection the rate of membership exit is much higher than the rate of sales. For at least ten years the unsold inventory of points has been accumulating and the deeds withdrawn reduce that excess supply of points. In 2013 there were  about 431,695,000 points in the collection. At the end of 2019 there were only 333,180,000 points, a decline of about 24 percent. As the membership declined, Diamond reduced the inventory. (I hope this is understandable; it's hard to find the right words to explain it.)


----------



## nuwermj

Tamaradarann said:


> ...  By allowing HGVC and DRI owners to use their points to make reservations in the system they don't own they expand their perspective market base to sell to without having to market to get the perspective buyers to come to the resort and put them up in accomodations.  ...



HGV seems to think the membership groups are two different markets. Slide 8 in the HGV merger presentation made the point that the average HGVC sale is $60K while the average DRI sale is $25K. The slide states: "Diamond's 75th percentile price point sits just below HGV's lowest 25th percentile." 

In the presentation Mark Wang said: "You can see how this broader offering benefits us, as you turn to Slide 8. With the addition of our new brand, we’ll increase the range of prices and expand our addressable market. Today, the majority of Diamond’s prices sit just below ours, giving us a full range of pricing options across our combined offering. The new lower entry price points _will allow us to reach a wider segment of Hilton’s loyalty base_ and it also provides new compelling upgrade opportunities for our collective owner bases. Historically, we’ve focused on customers with incomes of over $100,000. We’re now better able to target customers at $75,000 and above, which will expand our marketing universe by over a third." (My emphasis) 

I think of it like Toyota and Lexus are sold to different market segments.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Sandy VDH said:


> You may a higher Membership fee than we do now, but you get unlimited reservations, like DRI does not.



What do you mean by unlimited reservations, like DRI does not?? We can make as many reservations in a year that our points will allow for. Personally, my record has been 21 reservations in the same year.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> If the trust was fully sold then they would have to.  Currently approx 1/3rd of the points held within the trust are unsold.  Diamond can do what they want with those.



Wow, that high? Had no idea Diamond had so much unsold inventory in the EU Collection. Makes me wonder why they closed the sales centers several years ago with that amount of available inventory?


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> Eh, how much are your club dues? HGVC club dues are $186. If I remember correctly, Diamond club dues are considerably more. Like $300-$400 more. If that's the case, for someone like you that takes many short stay trips, it works great. To those that use their points in a more traditional manner with longer stays, the HGVC method of paying for what you use is much more beneficial. Like @Sandy VDH says above, I would love to have unlimited free reservations. Currently for me, it would be less economical to pay higher club dues for unlimited reservations  as I only am making at most 2 reservations a year. As I accumulate more points, that may/will change and it might be better for me to pay more in club dues and have unlimited reservations.



Without looking at my last statement, I believe Club dues were about $259 but there are many factors that make up out maint fees. We have base costs and then per point costs.

Yes, personally I take several weekend trips a year due to still working (in a school system). But I also take many week or longer trips as well in summertime with the longest so far being 20 nights. I know some folks that live up north and book 84 nights straight at a Florida resort and effectively become snowbirds every year. Even if I were to take only week long vacations I would still be taking about 10-12 weeks a year which at $59 a pop, that would equate to $590 to $708 a year in reservation fees, much higher than either of our Club fees. Depending on where I went, unit size, and time of year, I could get as many as 20 weeks of vacationing which would run $1,180 in reservation fees. You only have enough points for 2 reservations per year. SOme of us have invested much more so you can see where reservation fees would be a killer for us.


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## Fried_shrimp

nuwermj said:


> There is a one-to-one correspondence rule: every point must be backed by accommodations. But in the case of the EU Collection the rate of membership exit is much higher than the rate of sales. For at least ten years the unsold inventory of points has been accumulating and the deeds withdrawn reduce that excess supply of points. In 2013 there were  about 431,695,000 points in the collection. At the end of 2019 there were only 333,180,000 points, a decline of about 24 percent. As the membership declined, Diamond reduced the inventory. (I hope this is understandable; it's hard to find the right words to explain it.)



Yes, that make sense since Diamond would have to maintain all of the resorts without the underlying owners to support them. What I'm wondering is why did Diamond close the sales centers in the EU since that would only ensure the demise of the EU Collection as people got out but no sales folks to bring new owners in?


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## NiteMaire

CalGalTraveler said:


> Are there HGVC properties that DRI owners would like to visit?


We thoroughly enjoyed our time at The Bay Club (affiliate) on the Big Island.  We stayed in a Villa, and would happily stay there again.


CalGalTraveler said:


> IDK...When the potential merger with HGVC was announced in late 2019 I started a poll in the Diamond Forum asking about owner happiness with the Diamond System since I knew zero about Diamond. Almost 60% (58.5%) of Diamond Owners said they were neutral or unhappy with Diamond. Not a good sat score for Diamond.





CalGalTraveler said:


> FYI to contrast, here is the happiness poll for HGVC owners (28% neutral/unhappy HGVC vs. 58% neutral/unhappy Diamond).


The "sample" size for the DRI poll was only 41 total (24 legacy weeks owners and 17 points owners), far from being a statistically significant sample (but let's assume the % remain).
It's telling when you separate DRI weeks and points owners:
For weeks owners, it was 62.5% neutral/happy vs 54.17% neutral/unhappy.  We you exclude neutral, 37.5% of legacy weeks owners are unhappy/dissatisfied.  It's higher than HGVC, but I don't think it's horrendous.
For points owners, it was 52.94% neutral/happy vs 64.71% neutral/unhappy.  We you exclude neutral, 58.82% of legacy weeks owners are unhappy/dissatisfied.  That's a drastic increase (>20%) compared to weeks owners.


bakera said:


> Forget DEX. As an EU Collection points owner the number of points required to exchange is far higher than through II. I cannot see any benefit of DEX.


This is inline with the frustration I've read from other points owners.  Legacy weeks owners are less frustrated, and some (including me) are happy with it.


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## nuwermj

Fried_shrimp said:


> Yes, that make sense since Diamond would have to maintain all of the resorts without the underlying owners to support them. What I'm wondering is why did Diamond close the sales centers in the EU since that would only ensure the demise of the EU Collection as people got out but no sales folks to bring new owners in?



Closing the sales centers was Diamond's way of "gaming" European Union laws. In effect they outsourced sales to a third party.


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## nuwermj

Fried_shrimp said:


> Without looking at my last statement, I believe Club dues were about $259 but there are many factors that make up out maint fees. We have base costs and then per point costs.



The minimum dues for the DRI Club are $250. Every members pays at least that amount. Members with about 15,000 points (the equivalent of two composite weeks) start paying more. Their formula is $187 plus 0.0053 per point. So Fried_shrimp, who has 50,000 points (6.67 composite weeks) paid $452 for club dues. In addition, because resale accounts are not Club members and do not pay Club dues, the HOA pays $45 per account to The Club for reservation services, which, of course, is part of our MFs. So I pay $295 and Fried_shrimp pays $497 for Club services. My Bluegreen and Welk accounts are considerably less for the same services.


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## Fried_shrimp

nuwermj said:


> The minimum dues for the DRI Club are $250. Every members pays at least that amount. Members with about 15,000 points (the equivalent of two composite weeks) start paying more. Their formula is $187 plus 0.0053 per point. So Fried_shrimp, who has 50,000 points (6.67 composite weeks) paid $452 for club dues. In addition, because resale accounts are not Club members and do not pay Club dues, the HOA pays $45 per account to The Club for reservation services, which, of course, is part of our MFs. So I pay $295 and Fried_shrimp pays $497 for Club services. My Bluegreen and Welk accounts are considerably less for the same services.



Every member who is in The Club. Dirty point owners do not pay Club dues and still pay no reservation fees. The point I was trying to make is that the amount one pays in Club dues versus the rest of the maint fee bill is immaterial. Some members pay more, some pay less, some pay nothing at all to the Club but all have the ability to make reservations without an exchange fee.

Thank you for taking the time to look up the exact amounts though you are off slightly.

I did finally go look at my bill and I was probably thinking of the points fee which was $265.00 for 2021. My total Club fees for 2021 were $452.00 ($187 base and $265 points) according to my statement. But as I attempted to refer to before, I don't look at the individual components of my maint fee bill. I simply worry about the whole of it. I make an average of 16 reservations a year based on my last 5 years which if Diamond switched to the HGVC way of doing things, it would cost me $944 a year in reservation fees which would be more than double what my Club dues are. As @dayooper pointed out, HGVC pays $186 in Club dues a year plus reservation fees. If one only makes a few reservations a year, then they pay less for their Club fees. But at only 5 reservations a year, one is spending less using Diamond's method which many people exceed. Even folks with fewer points based on booking inexpensive weeks or 5 mid-week vacations to stretch their points. And we haven't even gotten into their $149 transaction fee to save their points which are free (included) for us.


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## CalGalTraveler

If you have more than 5 reservations a year some people do one of the following in HGVC

1) Become a top elite tier 32k points (must buy from the developer) no fees but big $$$$
2) buy a resale bHC property (NYC, DC) which has Al inclusive reservations. About $320/year ($189 dues + $120) for all you can eat reservations. Still must pay to bank but borrowing points is free   With the downturn some low point resales have been at bargain basement prices. Plus you get preferential reservations to NYC and owners lounge privilege at your home resort.
3) Change reservations instead of booking/rebooking. Still must pay initial fee.


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## Zenichiro

nuwermj said:


> Diamond does not. Raintree owns that one. Diamond has an affiliation with Raintree so Diamond can make it available to its members.


Thanks


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## Sandy VDH

Fried_shrimp said:


> What do you mean by unlimited reservations, like DRI does not?? We can make as many reservations in a year that our points will allow for. Personally, my record has been 21 reservations in the same year.



I mean LIke DRI. Typo


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## dayooper

CalGalTraveler said:


> If you have more than 5 reservations a year some people do one of the following in HGVC
> 
> 1) Become a top elite tier 32k points (must buy from the developer) no fees but big $$$$
> 2) buy a resale bHC property (NYC, DC) which has Al inclusive reservations. About $320/year ($189 dues + $120) for all you can eat reservations. Still must pay to bank but borrowing points is free   With the downturn some low point resales have been at bargain basement prices. Plus you get preferential reservations to NYC and owners lounge privilege at your home resort.
> 3) Change reservations instead of booking/rebooking. Still must pay initial fee.



Here is the kicker to me, the up front cost. I paid a total of ~$6000, including all Hilton fees and closing costs for my 7000 point platinum resale deed. I have the same booking rights and windows as any developer bought deed. In today’s resale market, I could do much better than that.


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## Tamaradarann

CalGalTraveler said:


> If you have more than 5 reservations a year some people do one of the following in HGVC
> 
> 1) Become a top elite tier 32k points (must buy from the developer) no fees but big $$$$
> 2) buy a resale bHC property (NYC, DC) which has Al inclusive reservations. About $320/year ($189 dues + $120) for all you can eat reservations. Still must pay to bank but borrowing points is free   With the downturn some low point resales have been at bargain basement prices. Plus you get preferential reservations to NYC and owners lounge privilege at your home resort.
> 3) Change reservations instead of booking/rebooking. Still must pay initial fee.



The other thing that people can do is become an Elite member which is only 14,000 points and make exactly 7 day reservations which do not have a reservation fee.  This year I made about 10 of them for no cost.


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## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> And we haven't even gotten into their $149 transaction fee to save their points which are free (included) for us.



Unless it’s an emergency, I probably will never have to save any points. If it weren’t for COVID, I would be going into 2021 with 2600 of my 2021 points spent on a 2020 reservation (3 bedroom in Myrtle Beach, Ocean 22 is a fantastic resort in a great location). Since borrowing is free, I would just borrow points from the next year. I would spend my points until I ran out, purchase what I need to fill out a reservation from a friend who doesn’t use all of theirs but doesn’t want to give up their elite status and start the cycle all over again.

Since we canceled our trip last summer, we had to save our 2020 points into 2021. I actually paid to save last May so I could take advantage of the booking fees in April and May. When they announced they were waiving the save fee, they also refunded any fees already paid. Without asking, they deposited my refund back to my credit card, no questions.

That brings me to another point; HGVC takes care of their owners. You can say what you want about locations (too few), their sales team (would take me a whole lot more than what they offer to do an “owners update”) or their fee structure (I’m really not a fan of it, it’s just not as bad as some make it out to be), but they take care of us. No system even came close to helping their owners out last year as HGVC did. Waiving fees, extending saved points and waiving cancelation penalties were just some of the ways that they helped us out.


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## frank808

Fried_shrimp said:


> In essence, HGVC is it's own trading company as well, for HGVC properties. The difference is that HGVC charges you an exchange fee (reservation fee) to book outside of your single home resort. Diamond does not as long as you are booking through the Diamond portal at Diamond managed or affiliated resorts so we could book to almost 400 locations exchange free.
> 
> DEX was originally created to allow legacy week owners book at other locations. Legacy week owners do not have access to the Diamond portal because that is strictly for point owners (kind of like RCI having it's separate week/point sides of the website). The purpose was to give legacy week owners a cheaper alternative to RCI/II and for Diamond to keep those exchange fees from it's owners instead of sending it to RCI/II. DEX was originally started around 2013/2014. In 2020, Diamond decided to cancel it's affiliation with II effective 31 Dec 2020 and modified DEX so that points owners could utilize it. Also, DEX was modified to allow point owners to save points on a 2,000 increment basis for 5 years instead of the 1 year through the Diamond portal. The only problem, at least initially, is that the point values were set way to high for a week somewhere but they have been adjusting that as DEX went live for point owners this year. DEX is mostly based off of RCI inventory so it did open a lot of new areas for Diamond owners to go to.


Accordingly per your reasoning, all timeshare systems are their own exchange company when trading outside home resort or trust. Marriott had internal trading (for points owners) but purchased interval international anyway. I would think the purchase of II by Marriott also had a hand in the starting of DEX. But I am not privy to all the workings of the DRI executive team.

I do not pay anything for reservations. All my deeds are resale and did not have to purchase anything direct from HGVC to get no fee reservations. 

I do pay the AI fee which is $313 for 2021. 

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## ccwu

dayooper said:


> Unless it’s an emergency, I probably will never have to save any points. If it weren’t for COVID, I would be going into 2021 with 2600 of my 2021 points spent on a 2020 reservation (announced they were waiving the save fee,......
> 
> That brings me to another point; HGVC takes care of their owners. the ways that they helped us out.



Right. HGV makes members happier. We never need to save points until last year due to pandemic. We made it a habit to use most next years points. 

DRI members have to save points before 6/30 each year to get 100% roll over to next. HGV can save on or before 12/31. 

We are top elite tier of both Hgvc and DRI. I can compare the benefits of HGV Elite premier and DRI platinum. DRI gave me 3 room designation a year when making reservation (I can ask for specific room) Hgvc gave us unlimited room request. Dri gave us unlimited paid upgrade to next higher category ($10 per night to next higher category, such as in Kaanapali beach club, I book a one bedroom scenic view 14 months in advance, so at the same dates, there are availability for ocean view, I can pay $10 a night to get one bedroom ocean view or if I book a deluxe ocean view, I could pay $10 per night to 2 bedroom partial ocean view unit. This will save us 2000 to 8,000 points saving per week). HGV does not do it. HGV gave us unlimited free next category upgrade 45 days before arrival if there is availability. I usually get 60% free upgrade and 100% during pandemic.) in HGV, we don’t pay any charges other than points protection fee (Dri charges about $500 per annual for reservation protection that you can cancel 31 days in advance instead of 61 days) HGV is point protection is that you can cancel of the same day of check in (more flexible. Hope they offer elite premier annual point protection program. I would not mind paying annual point protection and not to count the number of protection I need to buy). HGV offer free limo pick up in airport to most of HGV developed resorts, no such thing for dri. Pre Covid, There are gift every time we stay in HGV timeshare. Over all... I feel HGV shows more appreciation for loyalty. More flexible. I know TUG strongly encourage buying resale and advocate the price difference do not justify the benefits, but we do love being top tier of elite in both system and never need to worry about misc charges. We feel as long as one buy without need a double digits loan, buying from developer is perfectly fine. Of course we know the title ‘Elite’ is just one of the sales pitch. But HGV does have more perks. Such as all EP automaticity gets Hilton honor diamond status. We are treated well by both HGV and Hilton hotels. There is lots of flexibility to go around the world with Hilton hotel. (We travel to abroad and in US using Hilton honor points to stay in Hilton Conrad, Waldorf Astoria and having many enjoyable experience as being Hilton diamond member, we had free room upgrades, executive lounge breakfast, and happy hours). We have 30% off open season reservation. Dri gives points safer if you book within 60 days or 30 days. I know lots of people use it, in the ten years, we might only used it for once or twice. HGV do not offer discount points reservation which is perfectly fine for us. HGV offers open season reservation when closer that owner can pay cash instead of using points. 

The retail point on sale, DRI and HGV per point cost is very similar. But we use less point in Hilton for reservation (HGV usually, 2200 for studio, 3400 for one bedroom and 5000 for two bedroom. DRI 4000 for studio, 6500 for one bedroom, 10,000 for 2 bedroom). (For me, my Dri MF average 0.19 per point and HGV is average 0.19 per point too because we own about 29,500 bHC points that charges higher MF). I would say MF cost is cheaper in HGV because we could have more stays in HGV for the same amount of points. I stopped buy DRI club points since the platinum member benefit being down graded. 

HGV has different club resorts and bHC resorts. We love the most is NYC Hilton Club (owners only resort). Other HGV can not reserve if they don’t own NYHC. I can reserve one day the day before and always get availability. The MF is higher and we need to pay a separate club fee of $290 for NYHC. Most bHC has owners lounge that only owners can use it. The owners lounge serves breakfast and evening happy hours with free alcoholic drinks. 


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## Fried_shrimp

Fried_shrimp said:


> Every member who is in The Club. Dirty point owners do not pay Club dues and still pay no reservation fees. The point I was trying to make is that the amount one pays in Club dues versus the rest of the maint fee bill is immaterial. Some members pay more, some pay less, some pay nothing at all to the Club but all have the ability to make reservations without an exchange fee.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to look up the exact amounts.





dayooper said:


> Unless it’s an emergency, I probably will never have to save any points. If it weren’t for COVID, I would be going into 2021 with 2600 of my 2021 points spent on a 2020 reservation (3 bedroom in Myrtle Beach, Ocean 22 is a fantastic resort in a great location). Since borrowing is free, I would just borrow points from the next year. I would spend my points until I ran out, purchase what I need to fill out a reservation from a friend who doesn’t use all of theirs but doesn’t want to give up their elite status and start the cycle all over again.
> 
> Since we canceled our trip last summer, we had to save our 2020 points into 2021. I actually paid to save last May so I could take advantage of the booking fees in April and May. When they announced they were waiving the save fee, they also refunded any fees already paid. Without asking, they deposited my refund back to my credit card, no questions.
> 
> That brings me to another point; HGVC takes care of their owners. You can say what you want about locations (too few), their sales team (would take me a whole lot more than what they offer to do an “owners update”) or their fee structure (I’m really not a fan of it, it’s just not as bad as some make it out to be), but they take care of us. No system even came close to helping their owners out last year as HGVC did. Waiving fees, extending saved points and waiving cancelation penalties were just some of the ways that they helped us out.



For Diamond owners, we can't help but save some points here and there. Quite often, I'm make a reservation that costs 3,291 points, of 1,567 points because of different sales and such and points are not rounded off. Also, when a person owns a large number of points it is difficult to get all you vacations to exactly line up with what you own in a year. Actually, in 14 years I haven't managed to do that yet so I usually borrow a few from next year or roll some to the next year. I guess this year was probably the closest as I only borrowed 4 points from next year to make all of my reservations for this year. So without the ability to save points (at no cost), I would probably lose a couple a hundred points each year.

As for HGVC helping out it's owners like no others, what knowledge do you have for comparison? Do you know what Diamond did for it's owners?? I can fill you in if you don't know.


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## Fried_shrimp

frank808 said:


> Accordingly per your reasoning, all timeshare systems are their own exchange company when trading outside home resort or trust. Marriott had internal trading (for points owners) but purchased interval international anyway. I would think the purchase of II by Marriott also had a hand in the starting of DEX. But I am not privy to all the workings of the DRI executive team.
> 
> I do not pay anything for reservations. All my deeds are resale and did not have to purchase anything direct from HGVC to get no fee reservations.
> 
> I do pay the AI fee which is $313 for 2021.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk



DEX was created a couple of years prior to the Marriott purchase of II.


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## frank808

Thanks for the data point on DEX creation. 

What does/did DRI do for owners?

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## Fried_shrimp

ccwu said:


> Right. HGV makes members happier. We never need to save points until last year due to pandemic. We made it a habit to use most next years points.
> 
> DRI members have to save points before 6/30 each year to get 100% roll over to next. HGV can save on or before 12/31.
> 
> We are top elite tier of both Hgvc and DRI. I can compare the benefits of HGV Elite premier and DRI platinum. DRI gave me 3 room designation a year when making reservation (I can ask for specific room) Hgvc gave us unlimited room request. Dri gave us unlimited paid upgrade to next higher category ($10 per night to next higher category, such as in Kaanapali beach club, I book a one bedroom scenic view 14 months in advance, so at the same dates, there are availability for ocean view, I can pay $10 a night to get one bedroom ocean view or if I book a deluxe ocean view, I could pay $10 per night to 2 bedroom partial ocean view unit. This will save us 2000 to 8,000 points saving per week). HGV does not do it. HGV gave us unlimited free next category upgrade 45 days before arrival if there is availability. I usually get 60% free upgrade and 100% during pandemic.) in HGV, we don’t pay any charges other than points protection fee (Dri charges about $500 per annual for reservation protection that you can cancel 31 days in advance instead of 61 days) HGV is point protection is that you can cancel of the same day of check in (more flexible. Hope they offer elite premier annual point protection program. I would not mind paying annual point protection and not to count the number of protection I need to buy). HGV offer free limo pick up in airport to most of HGV developed resorts, no such thing for dri. Pre Covid, There are gift every time we stay in HGV timeshare. Over all... I feel HGV shows more appreciation for loyalty. More flexible. I know TUG strongly encourage buying resale and advocate the price difference do not justify the benefits, but we do love being top tier of elite in both system and never need to worry about misc charges. We feel as long as one buy without need a double digits loan, buying from developer is perfectly fine. Of course we know the title ‘Elite’ is just one of the sales pitch. But HGV does have more perks. Such as all EP automaticity gets Hilton honor diamond status. We are treated well by both HGV and Hilton hotels. There is lots of flexibility to go around the world with Hilton hotel. (We travel to abroad and in US using Hilton honor points to stay in Hilton Conrad, Waldorf Astoria and having many enjoyable experience as being Hilton diamond member, we had free room upgrades, executive lounge breakfast, and happy hours). We have 30% off open season reservation. Dri gives points safer if you book within 60 days or 30 days. I know lots of people use it, in the ten years, we might only used it for once or twice. HGV do not offer discount points reservation which is perfectly fine for us. HGV offers open season reservation when closer that owner can pay cash instead of using points.
> 
> The retail point on sale, DRI and HGV per point cost is very similar. But we use less point in Hilton for reservation (HGV usually, 2200 for studio, 3400 for one bedroom and 5000 for two bedroom. DRI 4000 for studio, 6500 for one bedroom, 10,000 for 2 bedroom). (For me, my Dri MF average 0.19 per point and HGV is average 0.19 per point too because we own about 29,500 bHC points that charges higher MF). I would say MF cost is cheaper in HGV because we could have more stays in HGV for the same amount of points. I stopped buy DRI club points since the platinum member benefit being down graded.
> 
> HGV has different club resorts and bHC resorts. We love the most is NYC Hilton Club (owners only resort). Other HGV can not reserve if they don’t own NYHC. I can reserve one day the day before and always get availability. The MF is higher and we need to pay a separate club fee of $290 for NYHC. Most bHC has owners lounge that only owners can use it. The owners lounge serves breakfast and evening happy hours with free alcoholic drinks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Points are saved by members for a variety of reasons. Also, if someone owns a lot of points and therefore takes a lot of vacations, the chances are greater that something may come up and they can't take all of the vacations they expected to. You are correct, in Diamond you can save 100% of your points until 30 June, then 50% of your annual allotment until 31 Aug, and 25% until 31 Oct. Most people use most of their points in a given year so most folks only need to worry about the 31 Oct date.

While one can purchase RPP (Reservation Protection Plan), as a Platinum member you should know that you get free RPP on reservations of 5,000 points or less so you don't have to pay anything. Also, RPP used to be much better as we were able to cancel 24 hours out instead of the current 31 days. Without RPP anyone can cancel 91 days out without loss of points (not 61 days).

IMO, you numbers for Diamond units are way off, especially for 2 bdrm units. The average 2 bdrm is 7,500 and many times they can be had for much less. With upgrades, I routinely get a 2 bdrm for about 3,500 for a week depending on location and time of year. Granted one can blow through their points very quickly if they choose. Just book NYC in summer or NYE and you can go through 99,000 points for just 7 nights. Or you can use points wisely and really stretch those points, if you want to.

All member benefits have been downgraded some over the last two years, not just Platinum. Never got an acceptable answer as to why form the CEO's office.


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## Fried_shrimp

frank808 said:


> Thanks for the data point on DEX creation.
> 
> What does/did DRI do for owners?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T377P using Tapatalk



If you mean in regards to Covid, from March to September of last year, Diamond allowed owners to cancel any reservation for any reason up to 24 hours prior to check in (easiest way was just to say you were too scared to travel) instead of sticking with the 31 day requirement with RPP or 91 without RPP. Diamond also moved 2019 and 2020 points for many members to 2021 or 2022. They provided full refund of points and cash spent on DDH's (Diamond Dream Holiday). None of these things had to be done but Diamond did these for their members. I don't agree with everything Diamond has done during Covid but they did save a lot of points people would have lost because of lockdowns, required testing, or just plain fears.


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## ccwu

Fried_shrimp said:


> IMO, you numbers for Diamond units are way off, especially for 2 bdrm units. The average 2 bdrm is 7,500 and many times they can be had for much less. With upgrades, I routinely get a 2 bdrm for about 3,500 for a week depending on location and time of year. Granted one can blow through their points very quickly if they choose. Just book NYC in summer or NYE and you can go through 99,000 points for just 7 nights. Or you can use points wisely and really stretch those points, if you want to.
> 
> All member benefits have been downgraded some over the last two years, not just Platinum. Never got an acceptable answer as to why form the CEO's office.



We don’t visit most DRI resorts. I specifically said the points in Maui KBC average since 60% of my points is in Maui KBC. The other resorts I went is Lake Tahoe vacation resort (for winter skiing in Heavenly) Virginia Beach Oceanaire and Ocean beach resort, st Maarten Flamingo beach and Royal Palm. I know there are other DRI resort but I rather use Dri points exchange in II. Non of the nice DRI resorts I know charges 7500 in peak season for two bedroom. HGV average two bedroom could start at 3500 for silver season. Peak in Waikiki average 7000 2 bedroom. (In May June is about 5,000 in Hilton Hawaii Village for 2 bedroom). MF per unit is relatively cheap than most timeshares. 

We own 3 NYC HGV bHC resort. The only two bedroom is in Hilton Club and the other is max 1 bedroom. The HC two bedroom is 10,000 Hilton club points per week. So 99,000 for a week in NYC in DRI points is way too high (over $18,000 in term of MF of $0.19 per point. HC has high MF, it is 0.33 per point, 10,000 for two bedroom is $3300). I know that DRI has some in Manhattan Club that is not too far from Hilton Club, but it looks run down. DRI does not provide owners lounge or executive lounge. We visit resorts mostly in peak seasons. (No sense to ski resort in non ski season, beach resort in cold winter). We own many timeshares and ski resorts. HGV and DRI is one of our major holding and expenses. My favorite slope side ski resort we own in Vermont (26 weeks) is managed by ski resort and they rented out when we don’t use and share revenue 55/45 with owner (45%). We usually came out by more than enough to pay our MF. Since we purchased, the value of Vermont ski resort Real estate appreciated and we could make a profit if we want to sell it. 

In HGV, our elite treatment are only upgraded, not down graded from year to year. I do not look too much in fee structure since we don’t pay fees for any service charges. I did not know that all Dri member were downgraded. Thought was only platinum. 

We love DRI the most is the value in II exchange. In the past, DRI pays our II platinum member fee. Now, we have to pay ourself. But we exchanged into 3 bedroom in Bangkok Empire place twice (4500 DRI points) and marriott Phuket beach club two bedroom (4000 Dri club points) st Kitts Marriott beach club (4500 Dri points) for two weeks. Cancun Westin Lagunamar beach club 2 bedroom (5500 Dri points) many times, Kauai Westin 2 bedroom for 5500 Dri points, Maui Westin Kaanapali beach club 6500 Dri points, Vegas.Marriott chateau 2 bedroom for 4500 Dri points ....  we use DRI club points to exchange mostly for Marriott and Westin (we own Westin Maui star option points but we found we love the extra exchange ...   


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## frank808

HGVC allowed cancellation and return of points in 2020 until day before travel. I think this carried over into the beginning of 2021 or maybe it is still ongoing. HGVC carried over saved points from 2019 into 2021 and all 2020 points were saved to 2021 for free. If you had paid the save fee in 2020 you were refunded. All reservations made in a certain time period in 2020 were free for ALL HGVC members. Many took advantage of that to book 2021 reservations for free. 

Seems like a lot of things DRI andbHGVC did were alike.

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## karibkeith

escanoe said:


> Where do you see info for the DEX anyone can join? This is the only website I see for Destination Exchange. When you click to sign up or log it, it seems pretty straight forward you must be a Diamond owner. Thanks for helping to sort this out.


That is the website (https://destinationxchange.com/). Go to "how it works" and the links at the bottom of the page to get the guides. I did this and got a new North American Members Guide for 2020-2021


----------



## dayooper

frank808 said:


> HGVC allowed cancellation and return of points in 2020 until day before travel. I think this carried over into the beginning of 2021 or maybe it is still ongoing. HGVC carried over saved points from 2019 into 2021 and all 2020 points were saved to 2021 for free. If you had paid the save fee in 2020 you were refunded. All reservations made in a certain time period in 2020 were free for ALL HGVC members. Many took advantage of that to book 2021 reservations for free.
> 
> Seems like a lot of things DRI andbHGVC did were alike.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk



Yes, they do. I’m very happy that DRI took care of their owners like that. The other hotel branded systems were very slow to act.

One of the best things HGV did was the “freeze“ on our MF’s. The majority of the HGV resorts froze MF’s (mine went down $0.24). Many of the bHC properties even refunded money back to the owners! Some went up, but they were mostly affiliates.


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## LEMONLEE

How do you think DRI weeks versus points owners will be treated differently by Hilton in this merger?  Or would they be?  We own a deeded week at KBC, and have resisted all attempts for DRI to convert to points because we did not think the cost to upgrade was worth the value.  We have always either traded our week through II, or have rented it out ourselves, and have never used DEX. The results from the Diamond Owners survey referenced earlier is interesting, because it looks as if weeks owners are a little more satisfied than points owners.


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## dayooper

LEMONLEE said:


> How do you think DRI weeks versus points owners will be treated differently by Hilton in this merger?  Or would they be?  We own a deeded week at KBC, and have resisted all attempts for DRI to convert to points because we did not think the cost to upgrade was worth the value.  We have always either traded our week through II, or have rented it out ourselves, and have never used DEX. The results from the Diamond Owners survey referenced earlier is interesting, because it looks as if weeks owners are a little more satisfied than points owners.



Interesting question and I don’t have an answer. I think that HGVC will eventually want that week and will try to entice you to enroll into what ever system KBC is in. That being said, there are many weeks in the SW Florida Affiliates that are not enrolled into the system. The owners can use, rent or trade trade those weeks into RCI and, for those resorts that can be dual enrolled, II.

Welcome to Tug!!!


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## ccwu

LEMONLEE said:


> How do you think DRI weeks versus points owners will be treated differently by Hilton in this merger? Or would they be? We own a deeded week at KBC, and have resisted all attempts for DRI to convert to points because we did not think the cost to upgrade was worth the value. We have always either traded our week through II, or have rented it out ourselves, and have never used DEX. The results from the Diamond Owners survey referenced earlier is interesting, because it looks as if weeks owners are a little more satisfied than points owners.



I imagine logically that the deeded owner has better chance to be accepted and allowed you to change your deeded week to HGV points like Grand pacific, Bay Club or other HGV managed resort. The structure of a deeded week can be value by the size, season to fit into HGV point structure while the DRI point owners can exchange thru DRI portal established with HGV in the future. DRI would have to pledge a specific unit for HGV to offer to HGV member, the HGV member who wants it can use HGV points to reserve, in return the Dri member can use the HGV member’s points to reserve HGV resort. 

I used to own the Maui Embassy resort, converted to sunterra and DRI points with owners updates. The points does not worth as much as the deeds in my opinion. But I did enjoyed many traveling with DRI points. So no complaints. My advice is to keep your deed and don’t trade in for points.  I own big island Bay Club (deed). I paid $399 to join HGV for converting to points. In the early time, I need to call to change my week to points. I need to prepay next years MF to get points into HGV member site so I can use it. Now I do not need to prepay or call. It is automatically in my HGV account. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chemteach

For everyone speculating about how HGVC and Diamond Resorts MIGHT integrate - I advise you to read through the Marriott and Westin postings from a  few years ago.  There was all sorts of speculation over what would/might change when Marriott bought Vistana.  To date, there is no integration of the two timeshare systems.  Rumors and speculation fly everywhere.  Salespeople put the fear of losing your ability to book your weeks if you don't upgrade into the hearts of poor timeshare owners who don't know any better.  Until something official comes out, it's safe to assume the two systems will be just that - two systems.  If some day they are integrated, we will all find out.  

When Diamond used to take over a timeshare system, all sorts of integrations occured.  But HGVC and Diamond are both large systems.  It will take a lot of time for Hilton to figure out what they want to do, and then more time to figure out how to make whatever they want to happen actually occur.


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## youppi

Fried_shrimp said:


> All member benefits have been downgraded some over the last two years, not just Platinum. Never got an acceptable answer as to why form the CEO's office.


If all collections have changed like the Hawaii Collection since 2016 then the decrease of number of lower loyalties (Value, Silver) members and the increased of higher loyalties (Gold and Platinum) members are responsible to the decrease of perks and the introduction recently of the Centum level IMHO. 

Selling points to existing members more often than to new members and introducing a program like the Club Combination are the main causes of this big shift from Value/Silver to Gold/Platinum IMHO.

Value members pay $250 for THE Club and get nothing as perks and they do few booking per year because they have few points. So, they pay too much for the service they use and this overpaid money serves to pay for the perks of higher loyalty members where they pay way much less for THE Club relatively to the number of points they have and get many perks and do many booking per year.

Look at the difference between September 2016 and September 2019 tables in the Hawaii Collection, you will see that the number of Platinum members is too high now (almost 25% of members of the Collection) and you will see the impact of the Club Combo where each member owns in average less than the threshold of the loyalty level they belong.
IMHO, the HI Collection in 2016 was well balanced between each loyalty level but not 2019 (too many Platinum).


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## Fried_shrimp

I want to share a conversation I had this evening with Maria Kalber regarding the expected purchase by HGVC of Diamond Resorts. She is the Senior VP of Customer Service Operations for Diamond Resorts. Very nice lady and we had a good chat. This is in reference to an email I sent to the CEO's office.

Maria stated that they are trying to be transparent and is going to check on two of my concerns in the underlying documents to see if they can be changed or not by HGVC (number of nights minimum and reservations fees). She stated that just as Diamond did not force people to move from whatever system they were in when Diamond took over a company, HGVC will not force people to move to HGVC when/if they take over (meaning the HGVC way of doing business). The takeover is not guaranteed as it still has to be approved but expected closing date is the second week of June. If the sale is completed, Diamond will be a sub-division of HGVC and will continue to operate under the rules of the Trust we are in. That cannot be changed. Rules for The Club benefits can change (as they always could be in the past). This is where my sticking point with 2 night minimum and reservation fees comes into play as I don't no which document supports that, they have just always been in place. She is going to find those out for me. Obviously, HGVC is going to give folks the chance (probably numerous times) to somehow become part of HGVC (most likely convert your DRI points to HGVC points), for a price of course, but just as people still own fixed weeks in Gold Key or points in Monarch, we will effectively be allowed to exchange as we always have in the past unless we "upgrade". This was the basic gist of the conversation. I hope this puts everyone a little more at ease and I will post any additional info I receive though I don't expect to see anything truly concrete about what will change and what won't change until after the sale is compete in June (if it goes through that is).


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## brp

In light of this useful information (we can hope it's accurate as anything said by a company officer about such matters is subject to change ), it will be interesting to see what sorts of "crossover" opportunities exist, if any, where one stays with their own system and set of rules, but gets to use those instruments/points in the other system. Based on prior experiences noted here, it will likely be several years before such have been ironed out, if ever. Until then, it seems that this will behave as the two separate and distinct systems that they are now.

Cheers.


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## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> I want to share a conversation I had this evening with Maria Kalber regarding the expected purchase by HGVC of Diamond Resorts. She is the Senior VP of Customer Service Operations for Diamond Resorts. Very nice lady and we had a good chat. This is in reference to an email I sent to the CEO's office.
> 
> Maria stated that they are trying to be transparent and is going to check on two of my concerns in the underlying documents to see if they can be changed or not by HGVC (number of nights minimum and reservations fees). She stated that just as Diamond did not force people to move from whatever system they were in when Diamond took over a company, HGVC will not force people to move to HGVC when/if they take over (meaning the HGVC way of doing business). The takeover is not guaranteed as it still has to be approved but expected closing date is the second week of June. If the sale is completed, Diamond will be a sub-division of HGVC and will continue to operate under the rules of the Trust we are in. That cannot be changed. Rules for The Club benefits can change (as they always could be in the past). This is where my sticking point with 2 night minimum and reservation fees comes into play as I don't no which document supports that, they have just always been in place. She is going to find those out for me. Obviously, HGVC is going to give folks the chance (probably numerous times) to somehow become part of HGVC (most likely convert your DRI points to HGVC points), for a price of course, but just as people still own fixed weeks in Gold Key or points in Monarch, we will effectively be allowed to exchange as we always have in the past unless we "upgrade". This was the basic gist of the conversation. I hope this puts everyone a little more at ease and I will post any additional info I receive though I don't expect to see anything truly concrete about what will change and what won't change until after the sale is compete in June (if it goes through that is).



Interesting conversation.  I agree that HGVC will NOT force Diamond Owners to convert to HGVC.  If a Dimaond Member wants to become a member of HGVC they will need to purchase a timeshare.

I disagree on the Diamond Points converting to HGVC points issue.  HGVC points are assign to a specific property and season that you own.  Diamond Points are not.  Therefore, I believe that the integrity of the 2 systems will be maintained separately with no conversion.  I believe that over time some timeshare weeks at Diamond resorts will be assigned a point value that equates to HGVC points for exchange purposes.  I have no clue on how that will be done.  Perhaps it will be similar to the HGVC/RCI exchange formula where an RCI Studio is 2400 HGVC points, a 1BR is 3400 HGVC points, a 2BR is 4800 HGVC points.  I suspect that a Diamond Points member will need to secure a reservation at a Diamond Resort before they can exchange to the HGVC system so that HGVC doesn't need to deal with the trust system availability that Diamond set up.


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## dayooper

Tamaradarann said:


> I believe that over time some timeshare weeks at Diamond resorts will be assigned a point value that equates to HGVC points for exchange purposes.  I have no clue on how that will be done.  Perhaps it will be similar to the HGVC/RCI exchange formula where an RCI Studio is 2400 HGVC points, a 1BR is 3400 HGVC points, a 2BR is 4800 HGVC points. * I suspect that a Diamond Points member will need to secure a reservation at a Diamond Resort before they can exchange to the HGVC system so that HGVC doesn't need to deal with the trust system availability that Diamond set up.*



If this is the case, I wonder if it have to be at certain more upscale Diamond Resorts? Would you have to make reservations at certain resorts to exchange with HGVC? I know it's been talked about that they may sell off some of the lower quality resorts, but I don't see that happening. I don't think HGVC members would exchange their weeks unless they were the top quality resorts. They already hold back some of the lower RCI resorts from their portal so there's a precedent in that regard. With the differences "quality" (I only say that as HGVC resorts have an upscale feel that some of the DRI resorts don't have), I'm not sure a week exchanged in the lower "quality" resorts would get used.

I am very thankful for the many contributors to this thread. It's been great learning about the DRI system and resorts. These discussions have been very civil and there seems to be a genuine interest in learning about the two systems. Sometimes speculation can be a trigger, especially for those where it infringes on what they already have. I can only speak for myself, but I know absolutely nothing on how the systems will interact. I can only go by what the head honcho's say and they aren't saying much. If/when the deal is approved and completed, I'm sure we will start to hear more. Like @dougp26364 says, I'm interested in what the sales reps are going to push. Not that I believe everything they say, but I am curious on their angle and how it vibes with what the other side is saying.


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## dougp26364

I’ve said this before, I’ll say it again.

speculation is just that, speculation. We won’t know until they announce it, and what makes perfect sense to us might make no sense to the corporation, or not be possible thanks to governing documents that are difficult/impossible to change.

There are a few things you can bank on. They won’t/can’t change the rights of owners as they stand now. Sales teams will try to convince you better things await if you by now and are grandfathered in. Rumors and speculation will be rampant (as evidenced on this thread).

We can look at previous mergers and see what’s been done in the past. When DRI purchased Sunterra, for several hundred dollars (between $1,000 and $2,000, I don’t recall the exact amount), DRI owners could joins Sunterra’s existing points program. By virtue of existing DRI owners buying in, Sunterra owners gained access to DRI resorts.

We can look at all the resorts DRI has acquired and merged to see how those where handled. There’s Wyndham and Worldmark. There’s the less successful Marriott and Westin (they’re still not integrated). There’s the soon to be Hyatt and Welk. From these we can form speculation, but it’s just guesswork. I’m guessing since Hilton has said they want an entry level program, they’re planning some sort of integration or overlay program, but it will be years before we know what, if anything, gets done.


----------



## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> I want to share a conversation I had this evening with Maria Kalber regarding the expected purchase by HGVC of Diamond Resorts. She is the Senior VP of Customer Service Operations for Diamond Resorts. Very nice lady and we had a good chat. This is in reference to an email I sent to the CEO's office.
> 
> Maria stated that they are trying to be transparent and is going to check on two of my concerns in the underlying documents to see if they can be changed or not by HGVC (number of nights minimum and reservations fees). She stated that just as Diamond did not force people to move from whatever system they were in when Diamond took over a company, HGVC will not force people to move to HGVC when/if they take over (meaning the HGVC way of doing business). The takeover is not guaranteed as it still has to be approved but expected closing date is the second week of June. If the sale is completed, Diamond will be a sub-division of HGVC and will continue to operate under the rules of the Trust we are in. That cannot be changed. Rules for The Club benefits can change (as they always could be in the past). This is where my sticking point with 2 night minimum and reservation fees comes into play as I don't no which document supports that, they have just always been in place. She is going to find those out for me. Obviously, HGVC is going to give folks the chance (probably numerous times) to somehow become part of HGVC (most likely convert your DRI points to HGVC points), for a price of course, but just as people still own fixed weeks in Gold Key or points in Monarch, we will effectively be allowed to exchange as we always have in the past unless we "upgrade". This was the basic gist of the conversation. I hope this puts everyone a little more at ease and I will post any additional info I receive though I don't expect to see anything truly concrete about what will change and what won't change until after the sale is compete in June (if it goes through that is).



Yup, that's how I always thought the gist of the situation was going to go. The devil is in the details, but I think the two systems will be separate with some sort of cross-over.  There may be minor changes with both systems, but I think it will be very hard to make drastic ones (unless they benefit the owners and we know that will never happen).


----------



## Panina

dougp26364 said:


> I’ve said this before, I’ll say it again.
> 
> speculation is just that, speculation. We won’t know until they announce it, and what makes perfect sense to us might make no sense to the corporation, or not be possible thanks to governing documents that are difficult/impossible to change.
> 
> There are a few things you can bank on. They won’t/can’t change the rights of owners as they stand now. Sales teams will try to convince you better things await if you by now and are grandfathered in. Rumors and speculation will be rampant (as evidenced on this thread).
> 
> We can look at previous mergers and see what’s been done in the past. When DRI purchased Sunterra, for several hundred dollars (between $1,000 and $2,000, I don’t recall the exact amount), DRI owners could joins Sunterra’s existing points program. By virtue of existing DRI owners buying in, Sunterra owners gained access to DRI resorts.
> 
> We can look at all the resorts DRI has acquired and merged to see how those where handled. There’s Wyndham and Worldmark. There’s the less successful Marriott and Westin (they’re still not I tgrated). There’s the soon to be Hyatt and Welk. From these we can form speculation, but it’s just guesswork. I’m guessing since Hilton has said they want an entry level program, they’re planning some sort of integration or overlay program, but it will be years before we know what, if anything, gets done.


Totally agree, all speculation.  We are comparing apples and oranges.  To add to the speculation DRI names get changed to something that includes HGVC, the existing HGVC  can be changed to HGVC Deluxe.......someone buys into HGVC DRI,  then the sell is to later let them turn it in to buy a deluxe.


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## tschwa2

Panina said:


> Totally agree, all speculation.  We are comparing apples and oranges.  To add to the speculation DRI names get changed to something that includes HGVC, the existing HGVC  can be changed to HGVC Deluxe.......someone buys into HGVC DRI,  then the sell is to later let them turn it in to buy a deluxe.


On the II forum someone posted the transcript of an interview with maybe it was a VP at HGCV who suggested that Diamond would be rebranded as the Hilton Vacation club vs the existing Hilton Grand vacation club and would have a lower average buy in cost with a pathway to upgrade to Hilton Grand at some time in the future with an additional purchase.


----------



## SmithOp

dougp26364 said:


> We can look at all the resorts DRI has acquired and merged to see how those where handled. There’s Wyndham and Worldmark. There’s the less successful Marriott and Westin (they’re still not integrated). There’s the soon to be Hyatt and Welk. From these we can form speculation, but it’s just guesswork. I’m guessing since Hilton has said they want an entry level program, they’re planning some sort of integration or overlay program, but it will be years before we know what, if anything, gets done.



HGVC acquired several unsold floors of the Westgate Elara in Vegas some years ago, and have been selling them as HGV brand, but left the prior Westgate owners as orphans. Don’t hold your breath on integration.

I’d be interested in how many unsold units DRI owns. HGV is a sales and management organization now, asset light strategy is the focus.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> Interesting conversation.  I agree that HGVC will NOT force Diamond Owners to convert to HGVC.  If a Diamond Member wants to become a member of HGVC they will need to purchase a timeshare.
> 
> I disagree on the Diamond Points converting to HGVC points issue.  HGVC points are assign to a specific property and season that you own.  Diamond Points are not.  Therefore, I believe that the integrity of the 2 systems will be maintained separately with no conversion.  I believe that over time some timeshare weeks at Diamond resorts will be assigned a point value that equates to HGVC points for exchange purposes.  I have no clue on how that will be done.  Perhaps it will be similar to the HGVC/RCI exchange formula where an RCI Studio is 2400 HGVC points, a 1BR is 3400 HGVC points, a 2BR is 4800 HGVC points.  I suspect that a Diamond Points member will need to secure a reservation at a Diamond Resort before they can exchange to the HGVC system so that HGVC doesn't need to deal with the trust system availability that Diamond set up.



It wasn't so much forcing Diamond owners to convert to HGVC. It was about forcing Diamond owners to convert to HGVC rules.

My guess is that HGVC will first acquire unsold inventory (converting the points back to weeks??) from Diamond to allow HGVC owners access to Diamond locations. Then, of course, HGVC will woo Diamond owners to convert to Hilton to acquire more inventory within Diamond.


----------



## Sandy VDH

SmithOp said:


> HGVC acquired several unsold floors of the Westgate Elara in Vegas some years ago, and have been selling them as HGV brand, but left the prior Westgate owners as orphans. Don’t hold your breath on integration.



It was way more than several unsold floors, it was 1,201 units as of the posting I saw.  They also purchased Elara because of restructuring to avoid Bankruptcy at Westgate.  I think this situation on buying DRI in entirely different.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Sandy VDH said:


> It was way more than several unsold floors, it was 1,201 units as of the posting I saw.  They also purchased Elara because of restructuring to avoid Bankruptcy at Westgate.  I think this situation on buying DRI in entirely different.



I agree this is very different.  With Elara its quite possible that Westgate did not to sell / allow the existing owners to transfer their membership from Westgate to HGV.    Westgate is not know for making it easy for owners to leave..


----------



## Tamaradarann

dayooper said:


> If this is the case, I wonder if it have to be at certain more upscale Diamond Resorts? Would you have to make reservations at certain resorts to exchange with HGVC? I know it's been talked about that they may sell off some of the lower quality resorts, but I don't see that happening. I don't think HGVC members would exchange their weeks unless they were the top quality resorts. They already hold back some of the lower RCI resorts from their portal so there's a precedent in that regard. With the differences "quality" (I only say that as HGVC resorts have an upscale feel that some of the DRI resorts don't have), I'm not sure a week exchanged in the lower "quality" resorts would get used.
> 
> I am very thankful for the many contributors to this thread. It's been great learning about the DRI system and resorts. These discussions have been very civil and there seems to be a genuine interest in learning about the two systems. Sometimes speculation can be a trigger, especially for those where it infringes on what they already have. I can only speak for myself, but I know absolutely nothing on how the systems will interact. I can only go by what the head honcho's say and they aren't saying much. If/when the deal is approved and completed, I'm sure we will start to hear more. Like @dougp26364 says, I'm interested in what the sales reps are going to push. Not that I believe everything they say, but I am curious on their angle and how it vibes with what the other side is saying.



Some have said on this thread that everything we say is speculation and I totally agree.  However, Since HGVC is the buyer and owner of the merger they will have control.  As an owner for 15 years with 6 HGVC timeshares and vacationing over 100 nights a year using HGVC points mostly at resorts I don't own I am trying to provide some incite into how HGVC system operates and exchanges within the HGVC system and outside of HGVC with RCI for those that are not familiar with the HGVC system.  That is why I detailed the number of points for eschanging HGVC points to RCI.

On the issue of top quality Diamond Resorts I have this to offer.   I recall years ago when I wanted to use HGVC points on the website to book an RCI resorts there was a filter or other mechanism that would only allow me to see the RCI resorts that were RCI Gold rated and maybe some Silver rated resorts.  I believe that is what you are referring to when you say "hold back some lower quality resorts".  Such a filter system could be used to only allow certain Diamond Resorts to deposit their resorts with HGVC, and only allow HGVC members to reserve at those Diamond Resorts.


----------



## karibkeith

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> People should also be aware that in the Diamond system, a 7-day stay with check-in/-out on Friday or Saturday will require fewer points than a 7-day with check-in any other day of the week.   The "week" rate in the charts only applies to those check-in days.


The weekly rate also applies to Sunday to Sunday with a few exception but not many.
If you book less than a week, Friday and Saturday are 30% of the weekly rate and Sunday to Thursday are 10%.  If you book a week on Monday to Thursday, it works out to 110%. Beware of booking periods beyond a week but less than a multiple of seven, you get charged the addition of all the days. For instance if you booked from Saturday to check out on the second following Wednesday, you get charged  150% which is 110%, not the weekly rate for Saturday to Saturday, then 10% each for Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. You can avoid the extra 10% by making two bookings, one for a week (100%) and one for 3 days (3 X 10%).


----------



## karibkeith

pedro47 said:


> You need to be a DRI member to look at this link.


Go to https://www.diamondresorts.com/destinations


----------



## bakera

Fried_shrimp said:


> I want to share a conversation I had this evening with Maria Kalber regarding the expected purchase by HGVC of Diamond Resorts. She is the Senior VP of Customer Service Operations for Diamond Resorts. Very nice lady and we had a good chat. This is in reference to an email I sent to the CEO's office.
> 
> Maria stated that they are trying to be transparent and is going to check on two of my concerns in the underlying documents to see if they can be changed or not by HGVC (number of nights minimum and reservations fees). She stated that just as Diamond did not force people to move from whatever system they were in when Diamond took over a company, HGVC will not force people to move to HGVC when/if they take over (meaning the HGVC way of doing business). The takeover is not guaranteed as it still has to be approved but expected closing date is the second week of June. If the sale is completed, Diamond will be a sub-division of HGVC and will continue to operate under the rules of the Trust we are in. That cannot be changed. Rules for The Club benefits can change (as they always could be in the past). This is where my sticking point with 2 night minimum and reservation fees comes into play as I don't no which document supports that, they have just always been in place. She is going to find those out for me. Obviously, HGVC is going to give folks the chance (probably numerous times) to somehow become part of HGVC (most likely convert your DRI points to HGVC points), for a price of course, but just as people still own fixed weeks in Gold Key or points in Monarch, we will effectively be allowed to exchange as we always have in the past unless we "upgrade". This was the basic gist of the conversation. I hope this puts everyone a little more at ease and I will post any additional info I receive though I don't expect to see anything truly concrete about what will change and what won't change until after the sale is compete in June (if it goes through that is).


I understand that you like the 2 night minimum stay, but to us that was the worst thing that Sunterra/Diamond (I cannot remember which) introduced.  Prior to that change our trust rules were that stays had to be for either a 7 night stay with a fixed checking day dependant on the specific unit, or you could book 4-night midweek breaks (@ 25% of the weekly points) or 3-night weekend breaks (@ 75% of the weekly points).  Only a small number of dedicated units were available for midweek/weekend breaks.


----------



## nuwermj

SmithOp said:


> I’d be interested in how many unsold units DRI owns. HGV is a sales and management organization now, asset light strategy is the focus.



Diamond owns four years of unsold inventory (not sure how many units that would convert into). They also have access to another 12-14 percent of all outstanding points.


----------



## dougp26364

SmithOp said:


> HGVC acquired several unsold floors of the Westgate Elara in Vegas some years ago, and have been selling them as HGV brand, but left the prior Westgate owners as orphans. Don’t hold your breath on integration.
> 
> I’d be interested in how many unsold units DRI owns. HGV is a sales and management organization now, asset light strategy is the focus.



Hilton did not acquire Westgate, only the management rights to Elara. There’s a HUGE difference here in that Westgate is still an independently operating company that did not sell those owners rights. They are NOT orphaned. They are still Westgate owners and will never be Hilton owners unless they buy into Hilton independent of their owned week at Elara.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

karibkeith said:


> The weekly rate also applies to Sunday to Sunday with a few exception but not many.
> If you book less than a week, Friday and Saturday are 30% of the weekly rate and Sunday to Thursday are 10%.  If you book a week on Monday to Thursday, it works out to 110%. Beware of booking periods beyond a week but less than a multiple of seven, you get charged the addition of all the days. For instance if you booked from Saturday to check out on the second following Wednesday, you get charged  150% which is 110%, not the weekly rate for Saturday to Saturday, then 10% each for Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. You can avoid the extra 10% by making two bookings, one for a week (100%) and one for 3 days (3 X 10%).



True, you would save points using that method but you could also be required to move mid-stay if someone used a DP (Diamond Preference) to book the unit you were staying in for the last 3 nights.


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## Talent312

dougp26364 said:


> They are NOT orphaned. They are still Westgate owners...



Orphaned in the sense that Westgate abandoned their home to strangers,
who swooped in, took over the offices and put up gaudy signs. But yes,
they can still call their real-parents at Westgate, for whatever that's worth.

I suspect that, given the differences in booking rules + practices, that HGVC
will not even try to unify the booking process for the two systems for years.
They may impose an HGVC overlay eventually, but change will not be quick.
Meantime, the DRI peep will carry-on w/o noticing the new puppet-master.


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## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> I understand that you like the 2 night minimum stay, but to us that was the worst thing that Sunterra/Diamond (I cannot remember which) introduced.  Prior to that change our trust rules were that stays had to be for either a 7 night stay with a fixed checking day dependent on the specific unit, or you could book 4-night midweek breaks (@ 25% of the weekly points) or 3-night weekend breaks (@ 75% of the weekly points).  Only a small number of dedicated units were available for midweek/weekend breaks.



I don't know who introduced it but when I became a member of Diamond (converted my fixed week unit at Powhatan Plantation) it was already in place and one of the selling points for me so I have to assume Sunterra did. I converted 2 days after Diamond purchased Sunterra back in 2007. As for being the worst thing, that is a personal opinion and without it I would likely have not converted my fixed week to points nor purchased more point contracts afterwards. Probably half of my reservations in a year are weekend stays at the beach or in Orlando until I retire in 2 years.


----------



## bakera

Fried_shrimp said:


> I don't know who introduced it but when I became a member of Diamond (converted my fixed week unit at Powhatan Plantation) it was already in place and one of the selling points for me so I have to assume Sunterra did. I converted 2 days after Diamond purchased Sunterra back in 2007. As for being the worst thing, that is a personal opinion and without it I would likely have not converted my fixed week to points nor purchased more point contracts afterwards. Probably half of my reservations in a year are weekend stays at the beach or in Orlando until I retire in 2 years.


Agreed, it is a personal thing and one of the things that has changed over the years as the various owners try to recruit new owners.
My issue is that the change resulted in significant management fee increases to fund the additional cleaning and maintenance required (most damage is caused when checking in/out whilst pulling suitcases etc. which suddenly tripled in certain units).
The other problem it caused was that previously you could obtain a list of units that had, for example, Saturday checkin and if you arrived early enough you could almost always get your first choice.  All of a sudden people were checkin in/out on totally random days.  I know I can use my status to select a unit at the time of reservation, but as Gold Elite I can only do this for one reservation per year.


----------



## karibkeith

Fried_shrimp said:


> There are many who theorize that Diamond's resorts won't be upgraded/branded HGVC. I agree that HGVC will need to get revenue from somewhere but if they expect Diamond owners to pony up, I'm afraid that a lot of them will just decide to walk since the value to stay won't be there (yes, I am one of those people). That would not be good for the HOA or HGVC to have a ton of extra units with no maint fees coming in on them. And unfortunately, they communicated the sale but no plan to go with the sale which makes a lot of folks on this side of the fence very nervous..


I agree. This may be my reason to walk away. There may be a class action suit


----------



## karibkeith

Fried_shrimp said:


> DEX is far from being perfected as I still quite often see a Studio/1 bdrm/2 bdrm at the same resort, same week for the same price in points but I do see some variance in weeks at different times of the year and I also see a LOT more in the 6,000 to 8,000 point range whereas almost everything (around 90+%) was max 12,000 points when they first showed us DEX.


I have been trying to value independent weeks I own by studying values assigned to nearby resorts. I also noticed high values initially that dropped as the start date approached. I deposited the weeks in Club Select/Combo (it got renamed but I forget what it got called) but they never showed up  in DEX availability. Instead of learning something about DEX, I have succeeded in becoming more confused especially when I see listing for Studio/1 bdrm/2 bdrm at the same resort, same week for the same price in points .


----------



## Fried_shrimp

bakera said:


> Agreed, it is a personal thing and one of the things that has changed over the years as the various owners try to recruit new owners.
> My issue is that the change resulted in significant management fee increases to fund the additional cleaning and maintenance required (most damage is caused when checking in/out whilst pulling suitcases etc. which suddenly tripled in certain units).
> The other problem it caused was that previously you could obtain a list of units that had, for example, Saturday checkin and if you arrived early enough you could almost always get your first choice.  All of a sudden people were checkin in/out on totally random days.  I know I can use my status to select a unit at the time of reservation, but as Gold Elite I can only do this for one reservation per year.



If you just make a purchase to go to Platinum you can pick your own unit THREE times a year.    (just kidding, don't ever make a purchase just for a benefit that can be gone tomorrow).

I do know that changing from weekly to nightly usage is also what drove Powhatan to remove all of their hot tubs which was one of the reasons we bought there in 1989 (in the 1st floor units they had a hot tub in each unit). After they decided to pull the hot tubs because they could not keep up with the cleaning maintenance, they left 2 buildings (about 10 or 12 units) with hot tubs, called them 2 bdrm Deluxe, and increased the price in point costs to book one of those units. Then, last year I believe, they removed the hot tubs from those units as well but left the higher point cost in place so, IMO, there is nothing deluxe about these units anymore. I know changing from week based to nightly based causes additional headaches but it also, IMO, created a lot more sales for folks that couldn't find the time to take a traditional full week.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

karibkeith said:


> I agree. This may be my reason to walk away. There may be a class action suit



While I hate to entertain the thought of walking, it may come to that for me if the benefits don't outweigh the costs. I'm currently spending about $90 a night to stay in a 2 bdrm and would feel comfortable spending up to about $125 a night. If, because of sudden and dramatic increases in maint fees, the cost went to say $150 a night and above, it just wouldn't make sense anymore. I love cruising as well and spend about $100-120 a night on a cruise but that includes food and entertainment which timesharing does not (yes, the resort's pools could be considered entertainment but there is much more than that on a ship). I will always continue to vacation but I will utilize the method that I get the most value from and makes my wallet the happiest.

Personally, I wouldn't put any faith in a class action lawsuit but I've never been a suit happy person. Plus, I feel I have gotten my dollar's worth out of my $105k investment costs plus maint fees over the last almost 32 years.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

karibkeith said:


> I have been trying to value independent weeks I own by studying values assigned to nearby resorts. I also noticed high values initially that dropped as the start date approached. I deposited the weeks in Club Select/Combo (it got renamed but I forget what it got called) but they never showed up  in DEX availability. Instead of learning something about DEX, I have succeeded in becoming more confused especially when I see listing for Studio/1 bdrm/2 bdrm at the same resort, same week for the same price in points .



Agreed. It is confusing to understand why a studio, 1 bdrm, and 2 bdrm at the exact same resort over the exact same dates would expect to get the exact same number of points. Who in their right mind would book a Studio if a 2 bdrm could be had for the same costs??


----------



## Magus

karibkeith said:


> I agree. This may be my reason to walk away. There may be a class action suit



Class action? Unlikely one that does anything and none of the other TS mergers have had a successful one. Anti-trust would be one area that could cause problems with the transaction occurring, though.

I think it'll will be years before the systems are integrated at all and much of their synergies will be back of the house (corp personnel, software, etc) or voluntary upgrades. As you said, they aren't going to want 10% of those paying MF to walk, so I expect changes to be slow and with enough of a carrot / upside on any negative change.


----------



## escanoe

If the Federal Trade Commission hasn’t done anything to curb timeshare sales abuses, they are not about to start doing anything on the antitrust side with this merger.

They have better things to do. Who shops competitively for a timeshare (other than us TUGers in the resale market)?

If the FTC were to start poking around timeshares (they will not), the place to start would be with the market consolidation and vertical integration with the exchanges. II and RCI being a duopoly and owned by the two largest timeshare companies.

I am a fairly liberal/progressive person that sees a role for the government in policing markets and competition. Them focusing on timeshares would be about #1,000,000 on my list of things they should care about. NO ONE has to buy one, unlike prescription drugs and hospital services.



Magus said:


> Class action? Unlikely one that does anything and none of the other TS mergers have had a successful one. Anti-trust would be one area that could cause problems with the transaction occurring, though.
> 
> I think it'll will be years before the systems are integrated at all and much of their synergies will be back of the house (corp personnel, software, etc) or voluntary upgrades. As you said, they aren't going to want 10% of those paying MF to walk, so I expect changes to be slow and with enough of a carrot / upside on any negative change.


----------



## Magus

escanoe said:


> If the Federal Trade Commission hasn’t done anything to curb timeshare sales abuses, they are not about to start doing anything on the antitrust side with this merger.
> 
> They have better things to do. Who shops competitively for a timeshare (other than us TUGers in the resale market)?
> 
> If the FTC were to start poking around timeshares (they will not), the place to start would be with the market consolidation and vertical integration with the exchanges. II and RCI being a duopoly and owned by the two largest timeshare companies.
> 
> I am a fairly liberal/progressive person that sees a role for the government in policing markets and competition. Them focusing on timeshares would be about #1,000,000 on my list of things they should care about. NO ONE has to buy one, unlike prescription drugs and hospital services.


Doesn’t matter when it comes to anti trust and abuse is not the same as anti trust which has much stronger laws from 20s/30s. Unfortunately antitrust is largely politics these days and has been for decades. Anti-trust is virtually never looked at with what exists and is entirely mergers these days. What you outline is more ideal than reality, and it’s still a huge amt more likely than consumer lawsuit being successful for the suitees


----------



## cd5

Interesting and very long thread to read! As an Embarc/Club Intrawest member I'd like to add my comments. For Embarc members, many of whom are long-time members, the HGVC acquisition seems to be a positive development. Many (based on discussions in our Facebook group) are hoping for an affiliation similar to what we had before Diamond bought us as it would expand our "internal" trading without dealing with an exchange company. I believe Hilton would have a hard time integrating our clubs, just as DRI did - deciding rather, to operate on the "peripheries" with their developer program, Extraordinary Escapes, because of the trust structure - and the fact that it is 97% owned by individual members - basically sold out, with extremely low delinquency numbers.
They could, if they wanted, add properties to the trust (with the appropriate points values) to expand, or take properties out - however to do that, property with "equivalent" value must be added to the trust to balance the points.
Before 2016 Embarc members could book (in limited quantities) Hilton resorts directly in our own reservation "grid" without an exchange fee, & move unused points into Hilton Honors, (which never expire). Availability for booking was always dependent on members on each side relinquishing their points to go to the other's resorts, and possibly developer points added to the inventory.
It will be interesting to see if things go back to a similar, much-liked arrangement or if Hilton will come up with something completely new.


----------



## GT75

cd5 said:


> As an Embarc/Club Intrawest member I'd like to add my comments.


Thank you for your comments.    I actually have been more interested in getting comments from Embarc/Club Intrawest members because of our former exchange agreement between HGVC and Intrawest.    This whole thread is pure speculation but I agree with your perspective.   


cd5 said:


> Before 2016 Embarc members could book (in limited quantities) Hilton resorts directly in our own reservation "grid" without an exchange fee,


We could also book your resorts (in limited quantities).     I would also like to have that same internal exchange agreement back.   Embarc/Intrawest has some very nice resorts and I think HGVC also has some nice resorts, so I think that the previous exchange agreement was beneficial to both groups.   I know that we used this exchange agreement once to send my son and DIL on their honeymoon to Interwest - Zihuatanejo.    They thoroughly love the resort.


----------



## Zenichiro

Sorry to keep this thread going but I found this article interesting.





__





						Friday's Letter from America: Hilton Acquisition of Diamond - Inside Timeshare
					

Welcome to the end of another week with Inside Timeshare, today’s Letter from America is from an old friend, Irene Parker. It needs no introduction apart from it is a subject that has sparked many conversations, the acquisition of Diamond Resorts by Hilton Grand Vacations. Here Irene explores...



					insidetimeshare.com


----------



## sng85

nuwermj said:


> Diamond does not. Raintree owns that one. Diamond has an affiliation with Raintree so Diamond can make it available to its members.





Zenichiro said:


> Does anyone know if Diamond owns Teton Club? I’d definitely trade for that when we visit Yellowstone.


Teton Club is actually independently managed. Not owned by Raintree or Diamond. Teton club owners can deposit their week into Raintree for exchange, which is how Raintree members get access to Teton Club, although it is limited. It’s possible that Raintree or Diamond may have purchased weeks from the Teton Club developer to make additional inventory available to their members, but I don’t know that for sure.


----------



## Zenichiro

That would be cool if so.


----------



## Mongoose

I wonder if this is a result of COVID.  Could be that COVID killed their financials and caused them to go with a fire sale.  I've always liked the Diamond properties, however the culture/environment I've always found toxic.  Maybe HGVC will fix that.


----------



## Zenichiro

I personally do not think Apollo lost anything on the deal. They recieved all stock with HGV at a low level and also now have a minor controlling stake 28%. Gaining around $8 per share so far I should add. 
But I do agree that the management overall should hopefully get better for (Diamond) HVC. I do worry that Apollo gets to add 2 board members to HGV so there will still be some influence.


----------



## jehb2

WE stayed at the Sheraton Wall Centre in Vancouver.  That was a blast.

I know some people like Kaanapali Beach Club in Maui. As much as I‘ve wanted to go back to Maui I could never bring myself to book there.


----------



## Tamaradarann

jehb2 said:


> WE stayed at the Sheraton Wall Centre in Vancouver.  That was a blast.
> 
> I know some people like Kaanapali Beach Club in Maui. As much as I‘ve wanted to go back to Maui I could never bring myself to book there.



We have neve been to Vancouver what was so special about the Sheraton?  Does Diamond own that property?  We have been to the KBC why haven't you been able to bring yourself to book there?


----------



## JIMinNC

Zenichiro said:


> I personally do not think Apollo lost anything on the deal. They recieved all stock with HGV at a low level and also now have a minor controlling stake 28%. Gaining around $8 per share so far I should add.
> But I do agree that the management overall should hopefully get better for (Diamond) HVC. I do worry that Apollo gets to add 2 board members to HGV so there will still be some influence.



The Diamond sales and management philosophy existed long before their acquisition by Apollo. All Apollo really cares about is generating an attractive return on their investors' investments. I suspect one of the reasons they did the deal with HGV in control was to allow the HGV management to clean up the Diamond mess. The fact that Apollo gets two board seats shouldn't have an overly negative impact on HGV, unless they fail to generate attractive returns on their stock.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Agree that would rather have Apollo fill those seats vs. Diamond, I will be watching carefully who in Apollo fills those seats and key management positions to assess Diamond culture influence on HGVC (IMO the less the better).

Did they disclose if they will be expanding the board to 9 (i.e. 2/9 votes)? (better) or keep it at 7 (2 out of 7 votes)?  Here is the current board composition:





__





						Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. - Governance - Board of Directors
					






					investors.hgv.com


----------



## Zenichiro

HGV’s Board of Directors will be expanded from 7 to 9 members, and the Apollo Funds will have the right to appoint two directors as long as their equity ownership remains at or above 15% of the outstanding stock at closing and one director as long as their equity ownership remains at or above 10% of the outstanding stock at closing.



			https://www.hiltongrandvacations.com/-/media/project/hgv/presence/news-media/press-releases-pdf/hgv_press-release_2021-03-10_final.pdf?la=en


----------



## sfwilshire

dioxide45 said:


> When DRI took over resorts, they jacked up the maintenance fees. From what I understand, early on they would also do a lot to upgrade the resorts and bring them up to better quality. Later, they just jacked up the fees without much return for the owners.



Definitely what happened when Diamond took over Mystic Dunes. We have been satisfied with our units, for the most part, but they do an awful lot of rentals to the public. A family member rented from them recently and gave the unit a one-star, even though they had happily shared our 3-br unit multiple times.

Sheila


----------



## escanoe

sfwilshire said:


> A family member rented from them recently and gave the unit a one-star, even though they had happily shared our 3-br unit multiple times.
> 
> Sheila


What does Diamond do to make renting only a one star visit versus their happy stay with you?


----------



## tschwa2

escanoe said:


> What does Diamond do to make renting only a one star visit versus their happy stay with you?


I stayed at Greensprings resort in Williamsburg one time about 10 years ago.  The positive was it was one of the best designed handicap accessible rooms that I have stayed in.  The downside (which honestly I don't care about so much) is that the resort furniture and color scheme made it look like it was 10-15 years since a full refurbishment.  

Unlike Westgate that I hear, puts resale owners in the crappy unrefurbished rooms and/or worst views and puts what they consider "real" owners who bought direct in the better units.  Diamond doesn't put resale owners in worse units but they are extra slow in finishing refurbishments so there is always buildings or parts of buildings that have not been updated to put exchangers and rentals.  That way when their incredibly pushy sales staff at the parking pass/key desk get you onto a tour they can tout how good they treat their owners and even if you stay at the resort through exchange you will never get the updated units unless you become an owner.  I felt like if they had 10 buildings they just didn't bother to refurbish the last 2.  It had been 5 years since the other 8 buildings were refurbished and maybe in 5 more they would start with 2 that weren't refurbished last time and then leave 2 of the others undone so that in another 10 years those two would get done.    For a gold crown resort with RCI, my unit looked like a non rated ocean city resort.  If exchangers get what looks like a standard unit then it should be advertised as such.    The things I really didn't like was the pushy offensive parking pass process and the extra fees (now rolled into a daily mandatory resort fee) that non of the other timeshare resorts in the area (Williamsburg) were charging at the time.  It was also July and they only had one pool which looked fairly big but for the size of the resort it was like 150+ people standing in a bathtub because there was no room to swim or play.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

tschwa2 said:


> I stayed at Greensprings resort in Williamsburg one time about 10 years ago.  The positive was it was one of the best designed handicap accessible rooms that I have stayed in.  The downside (which honestly I don't care about so much) is that the resort furniture and color scheme made it look like it was 10-15 years since a full refurbishment.
> 
> Unlike Westgate that I hear, puts resale owners in the crappy unrefurbished rooms and/or worst views and puts what they consider "real" owners who bought direct in the better units.  Diamond doesn't put resale owners in worse units but they are extra slow in finishing refurbishments so there is always buildings or parts of buildings that have not been updated to put exchangers and rentals.  That way when their incredibly pushy sales staff at the parking pass/key desk get you onto a tour they can tout how good they treat their owners and even if you stay at the resort through exchange you will never get the updated units unless you become an owner.  I felt like if they had 10 buildings they just didn't bother to refurbish the last 2.  It had been 5 years since the other 8 buildings were refurbished and maybe in 5 more they would start with 2 that weren't refurbished last time and then leave 2 of the others undone so that in another 10 years those two would get done.    For a gold crown resort with RCI, my unit looked like a non rated ocean city resort.  If exchangers get what looks like a standard unit then it should be advertised as such.    The things I really didn't like was the pushy offensive parking pass process and the extra fees (now rolled into a daily mandatory resort fee) that non of the other timeshare resorts in the area (Williamsburg) were charging at the time.  It was also July and they only had one pool which looked fairly big but for the size of the resort it was like 150+ people standing in a bathtub because there was no room to swim or play.



Actually Wyndham does the exact same thing and goes so far (at least at their Worldmark resort in Orlando) to build two types of units, one for owners and one for exchangers/renters. The owner's unit was much more plush and larger than the exchange unit.


----------



## tschwa2

Fried_shrimp said:


> Actually Wyndham does the exact same thing and goes so far (at least at their Worldmark resort in Orlando) to build two types of units, one for owners and one for exchangers/renters. The owner's unit was much more plush and larger than the exchange unit.


While the units with Wyndham might not be the best, the Diamond one that I stayed in looked like it hadn't been refurbed in 10-15 years.  With Wyndham they might give the older not recently refurbed but it they look like they are at or toward the end of the refurbed cycle, not 5-10 years past when it should have been refurbished.  I stay in non rated beach resorts like that along the atlantic coast.  A gold crown rated resort that charges one of the highest management fees and likes to compare itself with top tier timeshare developers should not.

There are some large multi hoa campus like wyndham resorts that the quality varies wildly between HOA's.  In those cases it may end up in a similar situation to the one I had at Greensprings but my understanding is that Greensprings is a single HOA so there is no reason for the units to be so differnt.


----------



## escanoe

Fried_shrimp said:


> Actually Wyndham does the exact same thing and goes so far (at least at their Worldmark resort in Orlando) to build two types of units, one for owners and one for exchangers/renters. The owner's unit was much more plush and larger than the exchange unit.



My experience exchanging into Wyndham is they have been very responsive to advance requests related to room assignments and provided good rooms.


----------



## tschwa2

escanoe said:


> My experience exchanging into Wyndham is they have been very responsive to advance requests related to room assignments and provided good rooms.


The ones that I might be concerned about are Edisto, Smugglers notch (although you can often tell the section by the private/non private capacity) and Pagosa and a few others where the difference between HOA's could be substantial and during times when there isn't vacancies.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Wow. This is eye-opening. Although they may not give you the room with the best view if you are an II or RCI trader, the top tiers (Hilton, MVC, Vistana, Hyatt) do not intentionally differentiate the quality of the room if you are resale.

Now I know not to trade into Wyndham, Westgate, or Diamond!


----------



## sfwilshire

escanoe said:


> What does Diamond do to make renting only a one star visit versus their happy stay with you?


Apparently they were put into a really bad unit. There was a long list of things they found wrong in the unit.

I guess I should be happy if they are saving the better units for owners. Or maybe my family/friends were more critical when they were paying a fairly significant rental rate than when they were staying with me at no cost.

I do know that owners are probably better at reporting problems than renters (though I report regardless of my status). We stayed in another resort in March and had three fairly significant complaints, but didn't want to bother with maintenance during a 7 night visit. So we just put up with them and gave a list when we called to check-out.

Sheila


----------



## dayooper

Does Diamond have ROFR on their deeded weeks or trust points (even if that‘s possible)?


----------



## KathyA

dayooper said:


> Does Diamond have ROFR on their deeded weeks or trust points (even if that‘s possible)?


For owners of full weeks they do not have ROFR, at least at Flamingo and Royal Palm in St. Maarten. I say full week owners because full week owners there are not deeded, but you do have the sole right to use that specific week.


----------



## elaine

Stayed at greensprings 4x, including last month. I’ve always gotten what I requested-as an Rci trader. Resort fee is a money grab-exactly what I got for free before. but hgvc’s fee for traders is even worse.
Love this place! It’s my go to place for wllbg.  It would be a great mid-Atlantic travel destination for hgvc, which is needed. It’s within driving distance of NY area and a good alternative to WDW for family travel, with colonial wllmbg and Busch gardens and easy day trip to VA Beach.
Units are refurbished (with really nice artwork) and it could easily be hgvc standards with some fixes. Floorplan is awesome, beds were great, nicely landscaped, huge deck, fabulous pools, esp indoor pools, spa and saunas (closed due to covid). It’s on a golf course with many units having golf views. Why it’s not up to par, little things, easily improved. Pans are cheap and nonstick was scratched badly. Cheap looking sofa, no granite/quartz in kitchen or bathrooms, Appliances still white (so either quite old, or they replaced with white) with renovation instead of paying more for stainless. Industrial Brown carpet was newish-but I’ve not been in any higher end timeshares that use that. No housekeeping checked our building all week, as a few tattered papers and cord from balloon stayed on stairs. Those are my hyper-critical observations. None significantly altered my enjoyment of the unit.  Inside unit was spotless.
I saw workers power washing sidewalks and replacing siding, so looked like ongoing maintenance/attention occurs.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> Does Diamond have ROFR on their deeded weeks or trust points (even if that‘s possible)?



I read once that Diamond does have the right to ROFR but I have never heard of a single instance of them invoking ROFR. Considering many weeks and point contract are simply given away I believe this was just standard contract jargon and nothing they really care about doing.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

elaine said:


> Stayed at greensprings 4x, including last month. I’ve always gotten what I requested-as an Rci trader. Resort fee is a money grab-exactly what I got for free before. but hgvc’s fee for traders is even worse.
> Love this place! It’s my go to place for wllbg.  It would be a great mid-Atlantic travel destination for hgvc, which is needed. It’s within driving distance of NY area and a good alternative to WDW for family travel, with colonial wllmbg and Busch gardens and easy day trip to VA Beach.
> Units are refurbished (with really nice artwork) and it could easily be hgvc standards with some fixes. Floorplan is awesome, beds were great, nicely landscaped, huge deck, fabulous pools, esp indoor pools, spa and saunas (closed due to covid). It’s on a golf course with many units having golf views. Why it’s not up to par, little things, easily improved. Pans are cheap and nonstick was scratched badly. Cheap looking sofa, no granite/quartz in kitchen or bathrooms, Appliances still white (so either quite old, or they replaced with white) with renovation instead of paying more for stainless. Industrial Brown carpet was newish-but I’ve not been in any higher end timeshares that use that. No housekeeping checked our building all week, as a few tattered papers and cord from balloon stayed on stairs. Those are my hyper-critical observations. None significantly altered my enjoyment of the unit.  Inside unit was spotless.
> I saw workers power washing sidewalks and replacing siding, so looked like ongoing maintenance/attention occurs.



Interesting. I just stayed in Greenspings over New Years and had granite counter tops in the kitchen and bathrooms. We also had a stainless steel oven and stove.


----------



## escanoe

elaine said:


> I’ve always gotten what I requested-as an Rci trader. Resort fee is a money grab-exactly what I got for free before. but hgvc’s fee for traders is even worse. Love this place! It’s my go to place for wllbg.  It would be a great mid-Atlantic travel destination for hgvc, which is needed. It’s within driving distance of NY area and a good alternative to WDW for family travel, with colonial wllmbg and Busch gardens and easy day trip to VA Beach.



I still think it is wishful thinking that any Diamond properties are going to soon be integrated in the HGVC system in a way they can be easily booked directly. If that were the case, as a Mid-Atlantic resident, my choice of a Diamond resort in our region would be Oceanaire in Virginia Beach.

The realist in me thinks the best we can probably do in the short term is to trade into Diamond properties through Destination Xchange at a lower exchange fee than RCI and for Diamond and HGVC members not to have to pay each others resort fees.


----------



## elaine

Hmm. Weird. Maybe we got a unit with new furnishings, paint, carpet, beds but not granite? Counter was newish grey speckled  Formica and bathrooms were white builder grade faux marble. Clean and in excellent condition.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

elaine said:


> Hmm. Weird. Maybe we got a unit with new furnishings, paint, carpet, beds but not granite? Counter was newish grey speckled  Formica and bathrooms were white builder grade faux marble. Clean and in excellent condition.



Or maybe I got an older unit and they are moving away from granite due to the costs of replacing it. Who knows?


----------



## Fried_shrimp

escanoe said:


> I still think it is wishful thinking that any Diamond properties are going to soon be integrated in the HGVC system in a way they can be easily booked directly. If that were the case, as a Mid-Atlantic resident, my choice of a Diamond resort in our region would be Oceanaire in Virginia Beach.
> 
> The realist in me thinks the best we can probably do in the short term is to trade into Diamond properties through Destination Xchange at a lower exchange fee than RCI and for Diamond and HGVC members not to have to pay each others resort fees.



It's interesting to mention that one of the members of my Diamond site stayed at a HGVC resort in Orlando a few weeks ago and they were going to charge her for parking (she said HGVC charges for parking for non-members but does not charge for members) and she said she was a Diamond owner and they removed the parking charge so maybe the last bit of your post is already happening. I was surprised they did that considering the sale isn't even finalized yet.


----------



## dayooper

escanoe said:


> I still think it is wishful thinking that any Diamond properties are going to soon be integrated in the HGVC system in a way they can be easily booked directly. If that were the case, as a Mid-Atlantic resident, my choice of a Diamond resort in our region would be Oceanaire in Virginia Beach.
> 
> The realist in me thinks the best we can probably do in the short term is to trade into Diamond properties through Destination Xchange at a lower exchange fee than RCI and for Diamond and HGVC members not to have to pay each others resort fees.



The optimist in me hopes the same thing. If HGVC wants an upsale line from DRI to HGVC, they need a way to get DRI members into HGVC resorts. The cleanest way to do that is by allowing easy, low to no cost exchanges between certain HGVC and DRI resorts. Very similar to what HGVC had with Club Intrawest before DRI bought them out. I think where resorts still have some deeded weeks (like Maui and Kauai), they may offer to enroll their weeks into HGVC (dual enrolled resort). Puts HGVC units into the DRI system. More easy exchanges.


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Fried_shrimp said:


> I read once that Diamond does have the right to ROFR but I have never heard of a single instance of them invoking ROFR. Considering many weeks and point contract are simply given away I believe this was just standard contract jargon and nothing they really care about doing.



Then it sounds like Diamond must have a lot of unsold inventory they can use for their sales and add to to their points trust.

Developers use ROFR as way to acquire inventory.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

1Kflyerguy said:


> Then it sounds like Diamond must have a lot of unsold inventory they can use for their sales and add to to their points trust.
> 
> Developers use ROFR as way to acquire inventory.



Yes, I would say Diamond still has a good bit of unsold inventory which is also why they charge $1,000 per contract for owners to return their contracts.


----------



## Talent312

Big Picture: I suspect this whole thing is designed to dilute
or encumber HGVC stock so it's less of a take-over target...
any benefit to the owners of either system will be incidental.

There may ultimately be some, but its not driving the bus.
.


----------



## NiteMaire

dayooper said:


> Does Diamond have ROFR on their deeded weeks or trust points (even if that‘s possible)?





KathyA said:


> For owners of full weeks they do not have ROFR, at least at Flamingo and Royal Palm in St. Maarten. I say full week owners because full week owners there are not deeded, but you do have the sole right to use that specific week.





Fried_shrimp said:


> I read once that Diamond does have the right to ROFR but I have never heard of a single instance of them invoking ROFR. Considering many weeks and point contract are simply given away I believe this was just standard contract jargon and nothing they really care about doing.


If they do, like @KathyA stated, it's not at all resorts.  We recently acquired a deeded week at Sedona Summit, and I was assured by the broker that DRI does not have ROFR at SS.  
@youppi  can you provide additional insight?


----------



## dayooper

Talent312 said:


> Big Picture: I suspect this whole thing is designed to dilute
> or encumber HGVC stock so it's less of a take-over target...
> any benefit to the owners of either system will be incidental.
> 
> There may ultimately be some, but its not driving the bus.
> .



I think you are correct. Everything that will come from this will be done to protect the company and make money. Any benefit we get will be from that train of thought.

That being said, the biggest drawback with the HGVC system is lack of location (too concentrated in Vegas, Orlando, Oahu and Big Island) while other systems have many more locations. If they want to expand their ownership and sell the outrageously priced weeks, they need more locations. I would assume Marriott is their main competitor and they have so many more locations and adding Vistana just expands that. I believe that the two systems will remain the separate, but I also think a certain resorts will be available to both. If they pump up those certain locations (Maui, Kauai, Tahoe, Sedona and Pigeon Forge) they would be very attractive for us many of us HGVC members to exchange. Right now, there’s a top end to what existing customers can buy. At some point, you get to the top and there’s no more sales. Starting at a lower cost, you’ve got more rungs on the ladder to climb before you get to the top.

The biggest question will be the cost of being able to book across the systems. Will they go the Marriott route and make you have a developer purchase to get into the system or will it be an enrollment fee/increased yearly club dues?


----------



## escanoe

dayooper said:


> Right now, there’s a top end to what existing customers can buy. At some point, you get to the top and there’s no more sales. Starting at a lower cost, you’ve got more rungs on the ladder to climb before you get to the top.



I am about maxed out at the top (great resorts for one or two nice vacations a year.)At least until I am closer to retirement. They could sell more to me at the bottom. If they get more in the mid-Atlantic region and lower cost stuff for short stays at lower exchange costs than RCI Points, I would grown my number of HGVC points going down (lower scale). Those sales will be competing with Wyndham and things selling in RCI Points .... not competing with Marriott.

I believe the merger helps them compete both up scale and down scale. But I will bet Wyndham has more to lose than Marriott.


----------



## Tamaradarann

dayooper said:


> I think you are correct. Everything that will come from this will be done to protect the company and make money. Any benefit we get will be from that train of thought.
> 
> That being said, the biggest drawback with the HGVC system is lack of location (too concentrated in Vegas, Orlando, Oahu and Big Island) while other systems have many more locations. If they want to expand their ownership and sell the outrageously priced weeks, they need more locations. I would assume Marriott is their main competitor and they have so many more locations and adding Vistana just expands that. I believe that the two systems will remain the separate, but I also think a certain resorts will be available to both. If they pump up those certain locations (Maui, Kauai, Tahoe, Sedona and Pigeon Forge) they would be very attractive for us many of us HGVC members to exchange. Right now, there’s a top end to what existing customers can buy. At some point, you get to the top and there’s no more sales. Starting at a lower cost, you’ve got more rungs on the ladder to climb before you get to the top.
> 
> The biggest question will be the cost of being able to book across the systems. Will they go the Marriott route and make you have a developer purchase to get into the system or will it be an enrollment fee/increased yearly club dues?



I would hope that booking across systems would be the same reservation fee as it is now.  After all they are merging the systems and I think they want owners in the two systems to take advantage of the benefits from the merger and exchange to the other system and buy more timeshares as well as tell other people how great the system is so that others buy into the new system.  In some previous posts I mentioned that I would hope that those that don't own in the existing HGVC or Diamond Resorts Club would not get the same Club Reservation Window start date that owners of that Club get which is 9 months for HGVC and 10-13 months for Diamond.  I believe the window should start at 3 or 6 months so that owners of that Club can book what they want before owners of the other club get the opportunity to make reservations.


----------



## escanoe

Tamaradarann said:


> I would hope that booking across systems would be the same reservation fee as it is now.  After all they are merging the systems and I think they want owners in the two systems to take advantage of the benefits from the merger and exchange to the other system



Hope springs eternal. I never expect the systems to be merged at this level, with some exceptions for a limited number of resorts over a few years.

A $150 exchange fee and resort fees waived through what has been known as Destination Exchange is about the best I think we could hope for ... and I would consider that lucky. Maybe Embarc and a few high end properties allow weeks to enroll in HGVC or have a fixed exchange rate. I am not holding my breath.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> I would hope that booking across systems would be the same reservation fee as it is now.  After all they are merging the systems and I think they want owners in the two systems to take advantage of the benefits from the merger and exchange to the other system and buy more timeshares as well as tell other people how great the system is so that others buy into the new system.  In some previous posts I mentioned that I would hope that those that don't own in the existing HGVC or Diamond Resorts Club would not get the same Club Reservation Window start date that owners of that Club get which is 9 months for HGVC and 10-13 months for Diamond.  I believe the window should start at 3 or 6 months so that owners of that Club can book what they want before owners of the other club get the opportunity to make reservations.



Diamond has no reservation fee for internal bookings. A Diamond owner can book through the Diamond website at any of the 95 Diamond resorts and approximately 300 affiliates and not pay a single extra penny for those reservations as long as they are a member of The Club.

The feedback I'm getting is that the systems will not be merged other than at management level. Eventually there will be some cross connection between the two, for a price of course.

From the Diamond side of the house, reservation window language is written in the Trust so Club member and dirty point members all have the same reservation window.

FWIW: I have yet to speak to a purely Diamond owner who is interested in exchanging into the HGVC side of the house. I do know some Diamond owners who also simultaneously own with HGVC and they are the only ones who have expressed interest in using their Diamond points on the HGVC side of the house.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

escanoe said:


> Hope springs eternal. I never expect the systems to be merged at this level, with some exceptions for a limited number of resorts over a few years.
> 
> A $150 exchange fee and resort fees waived through what has been known as Destination Exchange is about the best I think we could hope for ... and I would consider that lucky. Maybe Embarc and a few high end properties allow weeks to enroll in HGVC or have a fixed exchange rate. I am not holding my breath.



The Exchange fee for DEX is based on the status of the member in Diamond. It can range from $159 for a Standard member (15,000 points or less) to $129 for a Platinum member (50,000 points or more). Yes, we have Centum level (and it's $119 for them) but that program just started in Jan 21 and I doubt there is more than a handful of them since even if one owned the 100,000 points to obtain the level, they still have to purchase another 10,000 points to get Centum status. One should never purchase points just for extra supposed benefits and when you have that many points already that is effectively what one is doing....paying more for supposedly better benefits that can change in a moment's notice.


----------



## Tamaradarann

escanoe said:


> Hope springs eternal. I never expect the systems to be merged at this level, with some exceptions for a limited number of resorts over a few years.
> 
> A $150 exchange fee and resort fees waived through what has been known as Destination Exchange is about the best I think we could hope for ... and I would consider that lucky. Maybe Embarc and a few high end properties allow weeks to enroll in HGVC or have a fixed exchange rate. I am not holding my breath.



I am not really saying that the systems would be merged at all.  The integrity of the Clubs (HGVC and Diamond) would remain the same with no intermigling of the resorts.  Home Resort Reservation Periods would remain the same.  The difference would be that at a certain time during the Club Reservation Period, the period when members of a club can book resorts that THEY OWN, they would be able to book available inventory in the Club that you DON'T OWN paying the applicable reservation fee which is $59 in HGVC, (I don't know what it is in Diamond).  Members of both clubs would be saved the high RCI reservation fee to make reservations and wouldn't have to wait until weeks are deposited into RCI for availability.  The disadvantage to members of clubs would be that they would have to plan Club Reservations ahead alittle more since during the end of the Club Reservation Period additional eyes would be looking at the available inventory.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> Diamond has no reservation fee for internal bookings. A Diamond owner can book through the Diamond website at any of the 95 Diamond resorts and approximately 300 affiliates and not pay a single extra penny for those reservations as long as they are a member of The Club.
> 
> The feedback I'm getting is that the systems will not be merged other than at management level. Eventually there will be some cross connection between the two, for a price of course.
> 
> From the Diamond side of the house, reservation window language is written in the Trust so Club member and dirty point members all have the same reservation window.
> 
> FWIW: I have yet to speak to a purely Diamond owner who is interested in exchanging into the HGVC side of the house. I do know some Diamond owners who also simultaneously own with HGVC and they are the only ones who have expressed interest in using their Diamond points on the HGVC side of the house.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> After all they are merging the systems and I think they want owners in the two systems to take advantage of the benefits from the merger and exchange to the other system





Tamaradarann said:


> _*I am not really saying that the systems would be merged at all.*_  The integrity of the Clubs (HGVC and Diamond) would remain the same with no intermigling of the resorts.  Home Resort Reservation Periods would remain the same.  The difference would be that at a certain time during the Club Reservation Period, the period when members of a club can book resorts that THEY OWN, they would be able to book available inventory in the Club that you DON'T OWN paying the applicable reservation fee which is $59 in HGVC, (I don't know what it is in Diamond).  Members of both clubs would be saved the high RCI reservation fee to make reservations and wouldn't have to wait until weeks are deposited into RCI for availability.  The disadvantage to members of clubs would be that they would have to plan Club Reservations ahead alittle more since during the end of the Club Reservation Period additional eyes would be looking at the available inventory.



You're kind of contradicting yourself here but in reality, none of us really know what's going to happen in June. It's speculation. From the Diamond side, I've been told our internal reservation windows will be the same we we won't have to pay as reservation fee for our internal exchanges which is what we have been doing for the last 14 years, at least. I will assume there will be no changes for HGVC members on the HGVC side of the house and y'all will continue to pay your $59 reservation fee. If all that is true, then the only speculation is how will y'all get into a Diamond resort and vice versa. The most popular theory is via DEX which carries an exchange fee of $119 to $159 based on VIP status on the Diamond side of the house. While there is some Diamond inventory in DEX, it is mostly RCI inventory. HGVC could build some type of mini-exchange for HGVC/Diamond owners (because there isn't a lot of Diamond in DEX) to use to intermingle but if they did that at the 3/6 month point prior to check in, there will be several resorts that y'all won't have access to or have limited access based on season due to the some of the resorts being very small (Charter Club in Naples, FL or Bent Creek in Gatlinburg, TN come to mind). Also, if using DEX, every exchange will have to be weekly based and not nightly based (a LOT of people in Diamond rarely stay an exact week.....we can book a reservation from 2 to 84 nights depending on how many points you own). Of course, nothing will be written in stone until after the expected closing the second week of June.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> Diamond has no reservation fee for internal bookings. A Diamond owner can book through the Diamond website at any of the 95 Diamond resorts and approximately 300 affiliates and not pay a single extra penny for those reservations as long as they are a member of The Club.
> 
> The feedback I'm getting is that the systems will not be merged other than at management level. Eventually there will be some cross connection between the two, for a price of course.
> 
> From the Diamond side of the house, reservation window language is written in the Trust so Club member and dirty point members all have the same reservation window.
> 
> FWIW: I have yet to speak to a purely Diamond owner who is interested in exchanging into the HGVC side of the house. I do know some Diamond owners who also simultaneously own with HGVC and they are the only ones who have expressed interest in using their Diamond points on the HGVC side of the house.




You could be right that the systems will be only merged at the Management Level.  However, that would certainly NOT be very big news for Owners/Members.  

If Diamond has no reservation fee then the reservation fee for exchanging into Diamond Resorts then it could either be free or the $59 fee that HGVC charges for Club Reservations.  HGVC gives all Club Members, Developer Purchasers and Resale Purchasers the same reservation window.  Certainly if Diamond Members don't want to exchange into HGVC resorts that would be their choice but I believe that having the option of additonal resorts to book for the same reservation fee is a benefit.  

Isn't it curious that while purely Diamond owners are not interested in exchanging into HGVC resorts, those that own both Diamond Resorts and HGVC Resorts seem to be interested!


----------



## Fried_shrimp

For the HGVC folks, I'm posting Diamond's benefit guide. How much of it survives the merger is purely speculative but it will give y'all an idea of how Diamond runs now.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> You're kind of contradicting yourself here but in reality, none of us really know what's going to happen in June. It's speculation. From the Diamond side, I've been told our internal reservation windows will be the same we we won't have to pay as reservation fee for our internal exchanges which is what we have been doing for the last 14 years, at least. I will assume there will be no changes for HGVC members on the HGVC side of the house and y'all will continue to pay your $59 reservation fee. If all that is true, then the only speculation is how will y'all get into a Diamond resort and vice versa. The most popular theory is via DEX which carries an exchange fee of $119 to $159 based on VIP status on the Diamond side of the house. While there is some Diamond inventory in DEX, it is mostly RCI inventory. HGVC could build some type of mini-exchange for HGVC/Diamond owners (because there isn't a lot of Diamond in DEX) to use to intermingle but if they did that at the 3/6 month point prior to check in, there will be several resorts that y'all won't have access to or have limited access based on season due to the some of the resorts being very small (Charter Club in Naples, FL or Bent Creek in Gatlinburg, TN come to mind). Also, if using DEX, every exchange will have to be weekly based and not nightly based (a LOT of people in Diamond rarely stay an exact week.....we can book a reservation from 2 to 84 nights depending on how many points you own). Of course, nothing will be written in stone until after the expected closing the second week of June.



Please explain your statement. "You're kind of contradicting yourself here".  Either I don't see the contradiction or perhaps our terminology definitions are different.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Tamaradarann said:


> Please explain your statement. "You're kind of contradicting yourself here".  Either I don't see the contradiction or perhaps our terminology definitions are different.


 I re-read the first line of your post which I didn't catch before, so I will clarify for us.  While the systems would be merged, The CLUBS and RESORTS IN THE CLUBS would NOT be merged.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> You could be right that the systems will be only merged at the Management Level.  However, that would certainly NOT be very big news for Owners/Members.
> 
> If Diamond has no reservation fee then the reservation fee for exchanging into Diamond Resorts then it could either be free or the $59 fee that HGVC charges for Club Reservations.  HGVC gives all Club Members, Developer Purchasers and Resale Purchasers the same reservation window.  Certainly if Diamond Members don't want to exchange into HGVC resorts that would be their choice but I believe that having the option of additonal resorts to book for the same reservation fee is a benefit.
> 
> Isn't it curious that while purely Diamond owners are not interested in exchanging into HGVC resorts, those that own both Diamond Resorts and HGVC Resorts seem to be interested!



I don't know the history or financial abilities of the few folks that own in both systems so I can't say why they own in both or how happy they are with their choices on either side. For many Diamond owners, one of the big reasons to purchase (or switch our fixed/floating weeks to points) was based on not having to pay exchange (reservation) fees anymore. We currently have almost 400 resorts we can go to without having to pay an exchange fee. As some salesman like to say, our points are like cash. If a reservation is 2,500 points then we just use 2,500 points and that's it. Since we all pretty much agree that any intermingling will cost some type of fee, that is a negative for Diamond owners whereas it isn't for HGVC owners since y'all are used to paying a reservation fee to stay anywhere other than your home resort. Another point is that there are very few locations that HGVC has where there isn't already a Diamond resort and since your resorts seem to be considered more luxurious, they would likely cost more points as well. From the Diamond perspective, would I rather pay 4,000 points for a week at Mystic Dunes in Orlando or 10,000 points for a HGVC in Orlando? Personally, I'm going with the former. I'm not saying that on average HGVC owners are richer than Diamond owners but it is a possibility which is why Diamond owners work hard to maximize their point usage and prefer a system that has fewer "gotcha" fees (such as paying to save points to the following year). Believe it or not, only merging at the Management level WOULD be big (and happy) news for Diamond owners. I'll grant you it wouldn't be for HGVC owners since y'all are looking forward to having more locations to exchange to. Of course, only time will tell what will really happen between us.


----------



## NOLA47

I realize maintenance fees are supposed to be for resort maintenance, but could the no reservation fees be the reason for the exceptionally high maintenance fees for Diamond owners that we are hearing some owners complain about? I will be awfully disappointed after the big announcement if the merger does NOT allow reservations for across both companies.


----------



## dougp26364

NOLA47 said:


> I realize maintenance fees are supposed to be for resort maintenance, but could the no reservation fees be the reason for the exceptionally high maintenance fees for Diamond owners that we are hearing some owners complain about? I will be awfully disappointed after the big announcement if the merger does NOT allow reservations for across both companies.



As to reserving across both companies, I think we need to look at other mergers. The only merger, except for this one, that I have direct knowledge of, is Marriott/Westin. It’s been so long since the announcement and still no notable progress for owners, I’ve essentially lost both interest and hope. Perhaps those with Wyndham/Worldmark can add insight to how that merger and cross reservations have worked.

My hope is it will be simple. My belief is it will be anything but simple and it will be, as it is with Marriott, such a long time we’ll all lose interest except for the tall tales told by the salesmen at the the round tables.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> I don't know the history or financial abilities of the few folks that own in both systems so I can't say why they own in both or how happy they are with their choices on either side. For many Diamond owners, one of the big reasons to purchase (or switch our fixed/floating weeks to points) was based on not having to pay exchange (reservation) fees anymore. We currently have almost 400 resorts we can go to without having to pay an exchange fee. As some salesman like to say, our points are like cash. If a reservation is 2,500 points then we just use 2,500 points and that's it. Since we all pretty much agree that any intermingling will cost some type of fee, that is a negative for Diamond owners whereas it isn't for HGVC owners since y'all are used to paying a reservation fee to stay anywhere other than your home resort. Another point is that there are very few locations that HGVC has where there isn't already a Diamond resort and since your resorts seem to be considered more luxurious, they would likely cost more points as well. From the Diamond perspective, would I rather pay 4,000 points for a week at Mystic Dunes in Orlando or 10,000 points for a HGVC in Orlando? Personally, I'm going with the former. I'm not saying that on average HGVC owners are richer than Diamond owners but it is a possibility which is why Diamond owners work hard to maximize their point usage and prefer a system that has fewer "gotcha" fees (such as paying to save points to the following year). Believe it or not, only merging at the Management level WOULD be big (and happy) news for Diamond owners. I'll grant you it wouldn't be for HGVC owners since y'all are looking forward to having more locations to exchange to. Of course, only time will tell what will really happen between us.


----------



## Eric B

dougp26364 said:


> .... Perhaps those with Wyndham/Worldmark can add insight to how that merger and cross reservations have worked.
> 
> My hope is it will be simple. My belief is it will be anything but simple and it will be, as it is with Marriott, such a long time we’ll all lose interest except for the tall tales told by the salesmen at the the round tables.



With Wyndham/WorldMark, cross-booking over the phone (not online) is possible only with points that were purchased from the developer.  There is a fee for doing that and the reservation window opens at a point after the reservation window for owners at a specific resort or owners in general in one of the systems.  As a result, the highly desirable units at desirable dates are typically not available for the other side to book.  I understand that Wyndham attempted to more fully integrate the two systems when they took over managing WorldMark, but was stymied by the terms and conditions on the WorldMark side - I didn't own in either when that happened and can't provide first-hand recollections of that.  I am a retail (and resale) owner on the Club Wyndham and chose to add a resale WorldMark account in order to have better and less expensive access to the resorts on that side that are unique in the paired systems (e.g., Fiji and Coral Baja).  There are other benefits that are available on the WorldMark side to resale owners that aren't available on the Club Wyndham side, but it's a bit off topic for this thread.

That seems to be the type of post-merger availability that some posters believe will be available.  I would not be surprised to see that happen myself, but only time will tell.  It seems rational to think it will be something like that; I don't think cross-system preference/discount in an exchange (either DEX or RCI) similar to the Marriott-Vistana is as likely an outcome unless DEX is further enhanced after the merger, although that could be a possibility.  I do agree that it is very likely that any changes will take a long time to happen; the most likely immediate outcome is the sharing of sales leads (i.e., current owners) with the other system.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> I don't know the history or financial abilities of the few folks that own in both systems so I can't say why they own in both or how happy they are with their choices on either side. For many Diamond owners, one of the big reasons to purchase (or switch our fixed/floating weeks to points) was based on not having to pay exchange (reservation) fees anymore. We currently have almost 400 resorts we can go to without having to pay an exchange fee. As some salesman like to say, our points are like cash. If a reservation is 2,500 points then we just use 2,500 points and that's it. Since we all pretty much agree that any intermingling will cost some type of fee, that is a negative for Diamond owners whereas it isn't for HGVC owners since y'all are used to paying a reservation fee to stay anywhere other than your home resort. Another point is that there are very few locations that HGVC has where there isn't already a Diamond resort and since your resorts seem to be considered more luxurious, they would likely cost more points as well. From the Diamond perspective, would I rather pay 4,000 points for a week at Mystic Dunes in Orlando or 10,000 points for a HGVC in Orlando? Personally, I'm going with the former. I'm not saying that on average HGVC owners are richer than Diamond owners but it is a possibility which is why Diamond owners work hard to maximize their point usage and prefer a system that has fewer "gotcha" fees (such as paying to save points to the following year). Believe it or not, only merging at the Management level WOULD be big (and happy) news for Diamond owners. I'll grant you it wouldn't be for HGVC owners since y'all are looking forward to having more locations to exchange to. Of course, only time will tell what will really happen between us.



As I stated in my previous remarks the exchange fee when exchanging between the two systems could be $59 or Free.  One scenario could be HGVC would have to pay the $59 exchange fee that they normally do and for Diamond Members it would be free as it nomally is.  Perhaps Diamond Reosrts International would need be required to reimburse HGVC for the $59 exchange fee if HGVC felt it was being short changed, however, that is certainly a minor point for negotiations which wouldn't effect members direct costs. 

Since point banks would stay where they are no addtional fees such as for saving points should be needed.  By the way HGVC members also "Work Hard" to maximize their point usage.  HGVC members make similar decisions within the HGVC system to maximize the point usage.  I won't tell you we do it but we own 6 HGVC timeshares and have stayed for 4 months in a row at the Hilton Hawaiian Village in Honolulu.  If you don't know the Hilton Hawaiian Village it is huge and blows the Modern in Honolulu or the KBC in Maui away.  

You gave an example or using 4000 points versus 10,000 point to stay for a week in Orlando.  I don't where you got the relative point values but I totally agree with your thought about the 4000 point resort.   However, the number of points that would be required for exchanges between HGVC Resorts and Diamond Resorts has not been set, and I have no idea how they will determine it, so doing that comparison at this time is impossible.

I can understand your fears that HGVC will change the Diamond system so that your ownership is compromised.  Of course we all don't know what will happen, but I believe that what I have stated in my previous posts and he about how the systems can be merged WITHOUT MERGING THE CLUBS is workable and if you want to just use your points in the Diamond System that would be not be impeded nor enhanced.


----------



## brp

Tamaradarann said:


> If you don't know the Hilton Hawaiian Village it is huge and blows ... the KBC in Maui away.



We,, except for location. I don't know HHV, but I know that it's on Oahu and that's undesirable for us. KBC, on the other hand, is on the Kaanapali Coast, and that is desirable for us. So, I'd say that KBC blows away anything on Oahu since staying in a nice resort located somewhere one doesn't want to be is irrelevant. So "blows away" is very relative.

Cheers.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> As I stated in my previous remarks the exchange fee when exchanging between the two systems could be $59 or Free.  One scenario could be HGVC would have to pay the $59 exchange fee that they normally do and for Diamond Members it would be free as it nomally is.  Perhaps Diamond Reosrts International would need be required to reimburse HGVC for the $59 exchange fee if HGVC felt it was being short changed, however, that is certainly a minor point for negotiations which wouldn't effect members direct costs.
> 
> Since point banks would stay where they are no addtional fees such as for saving points should be needed.  By the way HGVC members also "Work Hard" to maximize their point usage.  HGVC members make similar decisions within the HGVC system to maximize the point usage.  I won't tell you we do it but we own 6 HGVC timeshares and have stayed for 4 months in a row at the Hilton Hawaiian Village in Honolulu.  If you don't know the Hilton Hawaiian Village it is huge and blows the Modern in Honolulu or the KBC in Maui away.
> 
> You gave an example or using 4000 points versus 10,000 point to stay for a week in Orlando.  I don't where you got the relative point values but I totally agree with your thought about the 4000 point resort.   However, the number of points that would be required for exchanges between HGVC Resorts and Diamond Resorts has not been set, and I have no idea how they will determine it, so doing that comparison at this time is impossible.
> 
> I can understand your fears that HGVC will change the Diamond system so that your ownership is compromised.  Of course we all don't know what will happen, but I believe that what I have stated in my previous posts and he about how the systems can be merged WITHOUT MERGING THE CLUBS is workable and if you want to just use your points in the Diamond System that would be not be impeded nor enhanced.



I didn't mean to show any disrespect when I stated "work hard". But since HGVC is week based, you can just go to your week and never have to worry about points or exchanging ever if you wanted, correct? And when you exchange to another HGVC or RCI it's pretty much week for week, isn't it? I'm not really sure how your points side of the house even works since you are deed based. Since Diamond trusts are purely points and you have discount time frames and nightly point cost differences and then you throw in time of year, unit size, particular resort, it take a little more math, IMO, for every reservation we make to get the best bang for your buck with Diamond points because we have no deeded week to fall back on if we wanted.

The point values I used for an example (purely an example) are based on what I normally spend for a week with my points based against what I think we would be charged to stay at an HGVC resort for a week. I used the point costs of what it costs to stay at some of the supposedly nicer Diamond resorts (such as Oceanaire or KBC) and assumed that an HGVC unit, being supposedly much nicer than the average Diamond unit, would command such a point value. Again, a lot of this is purely speculative based on a little bit of fact.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you stay 4 months in a row at a particular resort since your system is based on weeks? Did you book 12 weeks in a row? Did you have to move units in that time? If we make an 84 night reservation, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we will be in the same unit for those 12 weeks. If we booked a week at a time, we could very easily be moved because a Platinum owner could select some of the time in that unit with a Diamond Preference which would take priority.


----------



## Tamaradarann

Eric B said:


> With Wyndham/WorldMark, cross-booking over the phone (not online) is possible only with points that were purchased from the developer.  There is a fee for doing that and the reservation window opens at a point after the reservation window for owners at a specific resort or owners in general in one of the systems.  As a result, the highly desirable units at desirable dates are typically not available for the other side to book.  I understand that Wyndham attempted to more fully integrate the two systems when they took over managing WorldMark, but was stymied by the terms and conditions on the WorldMark side - I didn't own in either when that happened and can't provide first-hand recollections of that.  I am a retail (and resale) owner on the Club Wyndham and chose to add a resale WorldMark account in order to have better and less expensive access to the resorts on that side that are unique in the paired systems (e.g., Fiji and Coral Baja).  There are other benefits that are available on the WorldMark side to resale owners that aren't available on the Club Wyndham side, but it's a bit off topic for this thread.
> 
> That seems to be the type of post-merger availability that some posters believe will be available.  I would not be surprised to see that happen myself, but only time will tell.  It seems rational to think it will be something like that; I don't think cross-system preference/discount in an exchange (either DEX or RCI) similar to the Marriott-Vistana is as likely an outcome unless DEX is further enhanced after the merger, although that could be a possibility.  I do agree that it is very likely that any changes will take a long time to happen; the most likely immediate outcome is the sharing of sales leads (i.e., current owners) with the other system.



It seems like the reservation window for cross-booking from one Club to the other in the Wyndham/WorldMark merger is similar to what I have expressed that might happen in the HGV/Diamond system merger.  As expected the highly desireable units at desireable dates are typically not available.  That happens now in some HGVC resorts for HGVC members and that is as should be since I believe most members of both Clubs agree that there should be a reservation preference hierarchy going from; Resort Owner, Club Owner Member, Merger System Owner.  However, there are still the significant benefits over booking thru RCI of lower or no reservation fees and not having to wait for weeks to be deposited in RCI; whenever that happens.  As an HGVC member I know I had to wait and take what I could get in making RCI reservations for highly desireable units using extended seaches for Key West, Maui, Kauai, San Francisco, and Disney Resorts.


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## Fried_shrimp

Tamaradarann said:


> Isn't it curious that while purely Diamond owners are not interested in exchanging into HGVC resorts, those that own both Diamond Resorts and HGVC Resorts seem to be interested!



This is purely a guess but maybe those dual owners bought first in Diamond, then toured and bought at an HGVC property and decided they liked it better? I really don't know why people buy into multiple systems, maybe for the location differences? Maybe they like the perceived better quality of the second system but can't walk away from the first system? I'm sure all of these reasons and many others have something to do with it.


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## Tamaradarann

Fried_shrimp said:


> I didn't mean to show any disrespect when I stated "work hard". But since HGVC is week based, you can just go to your week and never have to worry about points or exchanging ever if you wanted, correct? And when you exchange to another HGVC or RCI it's pretty much week for week, isn't it? I'm not really sure how your points side of the house even works since you are deed based. Since Diamond trusts are purely points and you have discount time frames and nightly point cost differences and then you throw in time of year, unit size, particular resort, it take a little more math, IMO, for every reservation we make to get the best bang for your buck with Diamond points because we have no deeded week to fall back on if we wanted.
> 
> The point values I used for an example (purely an example) are based on what I normally spend for a week with my points based against what I think we would be charged to stay at an HGVC resort for a week. I used the point costs of what it costs to stay at some of the supposedly nicer Diamond resorts (such as Oceanaire or KBC) and assumed that an HGVC unit, being supposedly much nicer than the average Diamond unit, would command such a point value. Again, a lot of this is purely speculative based on a little bit of fact.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, how did you stay 4 months in a row at a particular resort since your system is based on weeks? Did you book 12 weeks in a row? Did you have to move units in that time? If we make an 84 night reservation, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we will be in the same unit for those 12 weeks. If we booked a week at a time, we could very easily be moved because a Platinum owner could select some of the time in that unit with a Diamond Preference which would take priority.



First of all let me clear up that the HGVC system is NOT a weeks system.  Yes you buy a week of a certain size, view, and style at a resort and get a Deed, but that is where it ends.  The week you buy entitles you to one week in the same unit size, view, style you bought DURING THE SEASON YOU BOUGHT.  However, the unit you buy immediately gets converted to points based on resort, unit size, view style and season.  You can use all the points you bought during the Resort Owner Preference period which is typically 12-9 months before check in to reserve the exact same unit you bought if it is available which it usually is.  When you want to book outside of the resort, unit size, style, and season that you bought you typically must wait until the 9 month mark before check in when the HGVC Club Reservation Period begins and you use now use your points.  I would say most owners book during the Club Reservation Period since it is much more flexible and flexible makes HGVC ownership desirable.

OK since I cleared up the weeks versus points issue let me go on.  When making reservations during the Club Reservation Period you must book at least 3 nights and can book up to 28 nights on one reservation. (that has changed over the years at one time you could extend a reservation up to about 100 nights which I did.).  You are assured you will be in the same room during a reservation, however, you are NOT assured you will be in the same room if you have multiple reservations.  You need to talk to the front desk to hopefully make that happen.  We have been very sucessful in making that happen.

I hope this makes your understanding of the HGVC system a little better.


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## Sandy VDH

Fried_shrimp said:


> This is purely a guess but maybe those dual owners bought first in Diamond, then toured and bought at an HGVC property and decided they liked it better? I really don't know why people buy into multiple systems, maybe for the location differences? Maybe they like the perceived better quality of the second system but can't walk away from the first system? I'm sure all of these reasons and many others have something to do with it.



I own Wyndham, HGVC and Holiday Inn.  However I purchased these units before they belonged to any of those clubs.  The resorts were independent but were purchased by the larger company and eventually turned into points play.  Wyndham I converted the fixed weeks, did an equity trade (to avoid a huge SA), PICed two weeks and made a one time developer purchase of 160K to get me to VIP Platinum level.  HGVC, I paid to register a unit I owned in HGVC points, purchased a second unit resale from an authorized HGVC agent which qualified me as Elite when they rolled out the program.  I purchased a Las Vegas week on auction in the late 1990s that after several switches in ownership, it ended up as a Holiday Inn week.  I was made an offer of $100 to convert to HICV Points.  I did. 

So I never intended to own multiple points programs, but I ended up there anyway, owning 3.


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## geist1223

Worldmark and Wyndham did not merge. Wyndham through a predecessor bought the Develpment Rights from Trendwest. As a separate matter the Independent (LOL) Worldmark BOD hired Wyndham to be the day to day manager of the Resorts. An exchange program has been developed called Club Pass. You have to have WM+A or WM Developer sold Points to use Club Pass. Wyndham likes to inflate numbers so Wyndham count every Worldmark Member as a Member of Club Pass.  Though a large number of Worldmark Members can not use Club Pss. The Booking Window for Club Pass i believe opens at 9 months.

WM+A Worldmark Points are Points acquired bebore "XX" date in November 2006 from whatever source. The Exchange Fee is $99. The Point Cost for an Exchange is quite high ie Wyndham Bali Hai 2 Bedroom through RCI is 10,000 Worldmark Points. Through Club Pass the same unit is 20,000 Worldmark Points. It appears that the rough equivalency between Wyndham and Worldmark is 16 to 20 Wyndham Points per 1 Worldmark Point.


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## brp

Fried_shrimp said:


> I didn't mean to show any disrespect when I stated "work hard". But since HGVC is week based, you can just go to your week and never have to worry about points or exchanging ever if you wanted, correct?
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, how did you stay 4 months in a row at a particular resort since your system is based on weeks?



It's based on weeks in terms of the ownership, and there is the option to use the Home Week booking. Outside of that it's points-based in all practical ways. Book where you want based on nightly points values. And, I believe that any booking using this method, i.e. *not* your Home Week (but even if your home resort) incurs the same reservation fee (I'm not sure as I do not pay booking fees due to by Hilton Club (bHC) owners having the option to pay an additional $129 annually to have no booking fees).

So, really, for most uses here anyway, this is points-based in terms of use with high flexibility.

(Edit: I had not noticed that @Tamaradarann covered this quite well already in a prior response)

Cheers.


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## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> But since HGVC is week based, you can just go to your week and never have to worry about points or exchanging ever if you wanted, correct? And when you exchange to another HGVC or RCI it's pretty much week for week, isn't it? I'm not really sure how your points side of the house even works since you are deed based.



@Tamaradarann explained the system perfectly.  I own a 2 bedroom platinum season at The Flamingo in Vegas. That deed comes with 7000 points I can spend on reservations. We can work the systems to our favor. Different seasons and different days cost different points. There are 3 (some resorts have 4) seasons and each season comes with a different amount of points (the MF’s remain the same though). My Flamingo 2 bedroom has 7000 points in platinum season. A gold season 2 bedroom would be 5000 and silver would be 3500 points. There is no bronze season at The Flamingo. M-Th nights cost half the points (700 per night) of F-Su (1400 per night) in platinum, 500/1000 in gold and 350/700 in silver.

Example: Since we did not any points last year, my points were saved to this year so we have 14,000 points to spend. We spent 7000 points on a Standard 2 bedroom platinum week at Ocean Oak. We spent 4400 points on 5 nights (M-F night) on a 3 bedroom gold unit at Elara in Vegas. We also spent 2560 for 3 nights (M-W night) on a platinum 1 bedroom in Chicago. Not gaming the system as much as you do yours (or most people do here), but not bad. We have a good sized family and need the room and only own 1 deed. I could use my points on studios and different seasons and really spread my points. I also spent a minimal amount of upfront money on my deed (bought resale) and I have the same booking windows and fees as any other owner.

Never say never, but my guess is I will never use my home week (or even stay) at the Flamingo.


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## Tamaradarann

dayooper said:


> @Tamaradarann explained the system perfectly.  I own a 2 bedroom platinum season at The Flamingo in Vegas. That deed comes with 7000 points I can spend on reservations. We can work the systems to our favor. Different seasons and different days cost different points. There are 3 (some resorts have 4) seasons and each season comes with a different amount of points (the MF’s remain the same though). My Flamingo 2 bedroom has 7000 points in platinum season. A gold season 2 bedroom would be 5000 and silver would be 3500 points. There is no bronze season at The Flamingo. M-Th nights cost half the points (700 per night) of F-Su (1400 per night) in platinum, 500/1000 in gold and 350/700 in silver.
> 
> Example: Since we did not any points last year, my points were saved to this year so we have 14,000 points to spend. We spent 7000 points on a Standard 2 bedroom platinum week at Ocean Oak. We spent 4400 points on 5 nights (M-F night) on a 3 bedroom gold unit at Elara in Vegas. We also spent 2560 for 3 nights (M-W night) on a platinum 1 bedroom in Chicago. Not gaming the system as much as you do yours (or most people do here), but not bad. We have a good sized family and need the room and only own 1 deed. I could use my points on studios and different seasons and really spread my points. I also spent a minimal amount of upfront money on my deeds (bought resale) and I have the same booking windows and fees as any other owner.
> 
> Never say never, but my guess is I will never use my home week (or even stay) at the Flamingo.



dayooper gave some excellent examples of the use of points and ways to work the system to maximize the points usage.  One of the ways you can maximize the points you get is to buy high and use low.  Just to give you an idea of how high is high and low is low I will give you the extremes the highest point week that I know of in the HGVC system.  A 3 BR Penthouse at the Grand Waikikian in the Platinum Season  is 28,000 points/week.  The lowest studios that I know of are the Standard Studios in some Las Vegas and Orlando Resorts in Silver Season which are 1100 points/week.  The points range per week everything in between these numbers.  I think this gives some idea on how you might "work hard" to maximize your points usage.  I won't go into some of the instances when one might need to "work hard" to get the nights one wants at resorts and time periods that are in high demand.


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## Fried_shrimp

Sandy VDH said:


> I own Wyndham, HGVC and Holiday Inn.  However I purchased these units before they belonged to any of those clubs.  The resorts were independent but were purchased by the larger company and eventually turned into points play.  Wyndham I converted the fixed weeks, did an equity trade (to avoid a huge SA), PICed two weeks and made a one time developer purchase of 160K to get me to VIP Platinum level.  HGVC, I paid to register a unit I owned in HGVC points, purchased a second unit resale from an authorized HGVC agent which qualified me as Elite when they rolled out the program.  I purchased a Las Vegas week on auction in the late 1990s that after several switches in ownership, it ended up as a Holiday Inn week.  I was made an offer of $100 to convert to HICV Points.  I did.
> 
> So I never intended to own multiple points programs, but I ended up there anyway, owning 3.



Do you find it hard to manage bookings with 3 different systems (remembering the rules for each of the systems)? I once owned Diamond points, a flex 3 bdrm L/O week at another resort, and finally a fixed week at a beach resort. I found life to be much easier when I got rid of the flex and fixed week and went pure points with one company.


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## Sandy VDH

Fried_shrimp said:


> Do you find it hard to manage bookings with 3 different systems (remembering the rules for each of the systems)? I once owned Diamond points, a flex 3 bdrm L/O week at another resort, and finally a fixed week at a beach resort. I found life to be much easier when I got rid of the flex and fixed week and went pure points with one company.



No, I have a good memory, set reminders in my calendar, have good knowledge and use of excel, and I make it work for me.  Each system has plus and minuses.  Holiday Inn has lots of TX resorts since they took over Silverleaf, and Wyndham has some TX locations too.  Makes for easy weekend trips.  Hilton is more upscale and has far less locations, but it does have other merits.  

It is what it is, I didn't plan it that way, but I got Status on 2 of the 3 for resale pricing, so I can't complain.


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## brp

dayooper said:


> There are 3 (some resorts have 4) seasons and each season comes with a different amount of points (the MF’s remain the same though).



Some have only 2 seasons. W. 57th, for example. Likely others.

Cheers.


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## dayooper

brp said:


> Some have only 2 seasons. W. 57th, for example. Likely others.
> 
> Cheers.



I was going for simplicity, but yes, most resorts don’t have a silver season. The older resorts usually have a silver season. Older Vegas properties Flamingo and Paradise both have silver while The Boulevard and Elara do not. With the exception of Sea World, none of the Orlando properties have a silver season either. The SW Florida affilliates and South Beach (older resorts) do. No Hawaii resorts have silver. Interestingly enough, the Myrtle Beach and Hilton Head resorts all have silver seasons. They are all under 10 years old. Put in place by Strand Capital, maybe? Chicago also has a silver season and that’s very new. Harsh Chicago winter? Italy doesn‘t have a silver season, but the majority of the European resorts have silver and even bronze (Valdoro in Breckinridge has a bronze season as well).


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## csalter2

I initially thought that the merger would be good for DR owners.  However, I must say that I am not thinking it may not be as good a deal for us.  First, I have been to quite a few Hilton presentations and they throw a lot points around but I notice that they don’t have a lot of properties.  I went to two presentations in New York and was not impressed.  I have stayed in Hilton Hawaiian Village, it was okay but doesn’t compare to Ko Olina in my humble opinion.   I stayed at the Hilton timeshare in Orlando where they boasted of Universal going to build right next to the property.  Hilton is fine, but not extraordinary in my opinion.  I have been with Diamond since they took over Sunterra.  My issue with them has always been their maintenance fees being so high and seeing their resorts being rented for less than what I pay in points.  I use DR mainly for Hawaii.  I love KBC and The Point but for different reasons.  The Point is in a quiet area and it is beautiful and has everything in the unit.  I like KBC for its location.  It’s close to Whaler’s Village, you can walk to places to eat and there’s a grocery store and pizza shop across the street.  They’re affiliate on the Big Island, Vacation Internationale at the base of the volcano is a nice property and close to the Black Sand Beach.  
I have not been to the European properties, but my European counterparts enjoy them for holiday.  

Diamond is not the best but it is decent. They have some properties that are equivalent to HGVC.  My original timeshare company, Epic Resorts, had great locations such as the Daytona Beach Regency, Sedona Summit and the Palm Springs Marquis Villas.  Back in the day these were all great places to stay as they were big accommodations and were in great locations.  However, they were not ever maintained to the level that they once were after being bought. 

I caution HGV owners to not look down their noses at Diamond.  Depending on how this merger goes, you have a lot to gain.  I feel we as Diamond owners could potentially gain, but I don’t really see that.  I see a bunch of new owners who have limited places to go competing with lover 400,000 Diamond owners for units at the most popular times. I hope that it is run similarly like Marriott in which Marriott owners still get preference and Vistana still has their preferences for their properties before they start allowing others to to cross over from other systems.


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## brp

csalter2 said:


> I initially thought that the merger would be good for DR owners.  However, I must say that I am not thinking it may not be as good a deal for us.  First, I have been to quite a few Hilton presentations and they throw a lot points around but I notice that they don’t have a lot of properties.



I didn't quote the whole thing, but some good points. This one in particular- HGVC definitely don't have a lot of locations compared to some. What they do have in those locations, though, are generally very nice resorts. So, for folks who happen to want to visit those locations often, it works well.

For example, we own at W. 57th in NYC and find it quite nice. We got 2-3 times a year and this is a great location and very nice accommodations. Also, the location north of Kona (Waikoloa) is great for us and we go yearly. While we own in Vegas (cheaper MFs), we don't go often. When we do, Elara is very nice.

As you say, from the HGVC member standpoint, I'm looking forward to DRI for added locations. KBC and The Point, in particular as, along with HGVC's Kona properties that covers all of the Hawai'ian islands we care to visit.

I don't yet know the other DRI locations since I expect it will be more than a year before I can actually sue them, but I'm sure that there are others I'd want to try.

Cheers.


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## NOLA47

When is it anticipated that we will find out the details of the merger and the benefits to both diamond and HGVC owners?  Will the details be released as soon as the merger is approved?


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## brp

NOLA47 said:


> Will the details be released as soon as the merger is approved?



Highly, highly and, I repeat, Highly unlikely. Bits and pieces will undoubtedly roll out, but I expect a year or so before anything substantive is hammered out.

Cheers.


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## Magus

It all depends on where you live and what you want to do - I live within driving distance of HGV DC, Myrtle, Charleston, Hilton Head and Orlando. I also like AI in Mexico, which HGv has good transfer with Fiesta (used a total of 12 bookings in two years counting friends and family, largely Cabo and Cozumel), plus Barbados, Scotland and Italy access, as well as many Hawaii locations and Vegas. 

So for where I live and travel and my family and friends whom I gift trips frequently, HGV is very good for location options, not even counting RCI and to be Diamond.

Plus, one of my HGV converts 50:1 with Hilton Honors (and also no club booking fees for all my points), combined with buy 4 nts with pts get 5th free and free weekend night cert + Hilton hotel diamond status with CC = nearly unlimited flexibility worldwide with Hilton, I am thrilled with the HGV system in my two years in the program. With my low MF locations really even 25:1 works for me well. I am looking forward to seeing if Diamond will open up any international locations, even out of season, for me, which would be a huge bonus.

I will certainly not thumb my nose at Diamond members or locations. My wife and I stay at everything from economy to luxury depending on a number of factors and everyone has their own style and budget!


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## Talent312

NOLA47 said:


> When is it anticipated that we will find out the details of the merger and the benefits to both diamond and HGVC owners?  Will the details be released as soon as the merger is approved?



I seriously doubt they'll be that quick to do so.
They'll move their people into key positions and tinker with structure.
It may be a year after that before any major change is announced.
That will likely signal the start of a 3-4 period of adjustment.
-- _Just a guess.
._


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## escanoe

I expect to begin to have a reasonable sense of where things might land within abt 5 years. Only a small amount of tongue and cheek in that response.


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## brp

Magus said:


> Plus, one of my HGV converts 50:1 with Hilton Honors (and also no club booking fees for all my points), combined with buy 4 nts with pts get 5th free and free weekend night cert + Hilton hotel diamond status with CC = nearly unlimited flexibility worldwide with Hilton, I am thrilled with the HGV system in my two years in the program. With my low MF locations really even 25:1 works for me well. I am looking forward to seeing if Diamond will open up any international locations, even out of season, for me, which would be a huge bonus.



Although I (and others) will note that, except for HGVC points that would otherwise go wasted, converting HGVC to HH is generally not a cost-effective strategy as the points/stays can usually be had for less than the HGVC investment. As a stopgap to prevent wastage, though, not bad at all.

Cheers.


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## Magus

brp said:


> Although I (and others) will note that, except for HGVC points that would otherwise go wasted, converting HGVC to HH is generally not a cost-effective strategy as the points/stays can usually be had for less than the HGVC investment. As a stopgap to prevent wastage, though, not bad at all.
> 
> Cheers.



Depends - at 50:1, with 5th night free and $0.005 value per Hilton peso, it’s the equiv of $.3125 per hgv point with MFs roughly half that on mine, plus way more flexibility on both location, time booked and number of nights, especially over weekends where Hilton pesos are same cost as weekdays while HgV is double usually on weekends. And you can find redemptions in the $0.008 to $0.012 ranges or even higher from time to time. For example, next year in Italy we will do 5 nights in Tuscany with timeshare and 5 nights in Rome with converted points at $0.006 value per Hilton peso

For 25:1 I would tend to agree, though, but with planning you can still get some pretty decent value out of it even not just as a stop gap last resort, and they don’t expire like HGV points. Cheers


----------



## Tamaradarann

csalter2 said:


> I initially thought that the merger would be good for DR owners.  However, I must say that I am not thinking it may not be as good a deal for us.  First, I have been to quite a few Hilton presentations and they throw a lot points around but I notice that they don’t have a lot of properties.  I went to two presentations in New York and was not impressed.  I have stayed in Hilton Hawaiian Village, it was okay but doesn’t compare to Ko Olina in my humble opinion.   I stayed at the Hilton timeshare in Orlando where they boasted of Universal going to build right next to the property.  Hilton is fine, but not extraordinary in my opinion.  I have been with Diamond since they took over Sunterra.  My issue with them has always been their maintenance fees being so high and seeing their resorts being rented for less than what I pay in points.  I use DR mainly for Hawaii.  I love KBC and The Point but for different reasons.  The Point is in a quiet area and it is beautiful and has everything in the unit.  I like KBC for its location.  It’s close to Whaler’s Village, you can walk to places to eat and there’s a grocery store and pizza shop across the street.  They’re affiliate on the Big Island, Vacation Internationale at the base of the volcano is a nice property and close to the Black Sand Beach.
> I have not been to the European properties, but my European counterparts enjoy them for holiday.
> 
> Diamond is not the best but it is decent. They have some properties that are equivalent to HGVC.  My original timeshare company, Epic Resorts, had great locations such as the Daytona Beach Regency, Sedona Summit and the Palm Springs Marquis Villas.  Back in the day these were all great places to stay as they were big accommodations and were in great locations.  However, they were not ever maintained to the level that they once were after being bought.
> 
> I caution HGV owners to not look down their noses at Diamond.  Depending on how this merger goes, you have a lot to gain.  I feel we as Diamond owners could potentially gain, but I don’t really see that.  I see a bunch of new owners who have limited places to go competing with lover 400,000 Diamond owners for units at the most popular times. I hope that it is run similarly like Marriott in which Marriott owners still get preference and Vistana still has their preferences for their properties before they start allowing others to to cross over from other systems.



I don't think I have conveyed a message of looking down on Diamond in my posts.  I have tried to give an even an approach to how the merger of the systems could work without impeding the integrity and benefits of the individual HGVC and Diamond Clubs.  

I must comment on your thoughts about the Hilton Hawaiian Village versus Ko Olina.  When comparing the two one need to take into consideration what type of vacation one wants. 

 Ko Olina is a beautiful relatively quite location in the middle of no where.  It is great for a nice resort type of vacation in a great tropical location.  However, you need a car to go anywhere and many places are far away.  

The Hilton Hawaiian Village is in the middle of a city.  There is so much to do in the area.  We vacation at the Hitlon Hawaiian Village for months at a time without a car since many things are within walking distance and the bus service is right there and very convienient and inexpensive.   We never lack for things to do and some days we have 2 or 3 things we want to do and have to choose between them.  We go to Parades, All Types of Music Performances. Symphony Concerts, the Royal Hawaiian Band, Iolani Palace, Art Museums, Street Festivals, Beer Festivals, Art Festivals, Live Theatre Art Shows, All different types of Restaurants.  It is quite different than Ko Olina.


----------



## csalter2

Tamaradarann said:


> I don't think I have conveyed a message of looking down on Diamond in my posts.  I have tried to give an even an approach to how the merger of the systems could work without impeding the integrity and benefits of the individual HGVC and Diamond Clubs.
> 
> I must comment on your thoughts about the Hilton Hawaiian Village versus Ko Olina.  When comparing the two one need to take into consideration what type of vacation one wants.
> 
> Ko Olina is a beautiful relatively quite location in the middle of no where.  It is great for a nice resort type of vacation in a great tropical location.  However, you need a car to go anywhere and many places are far away.
> 
> The Hilton Hawaiian Village is in the middle of a city.  There is so much to do in the area.  We vacation at the Hitlon Hawaiian Village for months at a time without a car since many things are within walking distance and the bus service is right there and very convienient and inexpensive.   We never lack for things to do and some days we have 2 or 3 things we want to do and have to choose between them.  We go to Parades, All Types of Music Performances. Symphony Concerts, the Royal Hawaiian Band, Iolani Palace, Art Museums, Street Festivals, Beer Festivals, Art Festivals, Live Theatre Art Shows, All different types of Restaurants.  It is quite different than Ko Olina.



I was not stating that anyone in particular was looking down on Diamond.  However, I have noticed quite a few from HGV mention bringing DR properties up to HGV standards. I would be the first to say that DR has some dogs for resorts, but they also have some real “diamonds” in their collections and properties that with a little renovation and TLC could be very, very special. 

I will admit that I am probably spoiled.  I usually spend 5 or 6 weeks when I go to Hawaii and visit three islands.  I always save Oahu for last because it has the most things to do. I rent a car because no matter where you are on the island you need a car if you want to get around even if you are downtown.  I like the North Shore area and even if you’re downtown you need a car to get there unless you want to take a cab or something.  I say I am spoiled because when I am staying at Ko Olina I also book a two or three days at the Royal Kuhio downtown through DR.  I love Waikiki’s beach, my wife likes the shopping and my kids like the action.  It allows us to spend some time there and have a place to change clothes, leave items that were bought and most importantly provide a place to park.  We don’t sleep there unless we have some night activity and we don’t feel like driving back to Ko Olina and that has only happened once or twice.  Ko Olina is not that far from downtown.  Heck,  from where I live from Los Angeles, Waikiki to Ko Olina is down the block.


----------



## Tamaradarann

csalter2 said:


> I was not stating that anyone in particular was looking down on Diamond.  However, I have noticed quite a few from HGV mention bringing DR properties up to HGV standards. I would be the first to say that DR has some dogs for resorts, but they also have some real “diamonds” in their collections and properties that with a little renovation and TLC could be very, very special.
> 
> I will admit that I am probably spoiled.  I usually spend 5 or 6 weeks when I go to Hawaii and visit three islands.  I always save Oahu for last because it has the most things to do. I rent a car because no matter where you are on the island you need a car if you want to get around even if you are downtown.  I like the North Shore area and even if you’re downtown you need a car to get there unless you want to take a cab or something.  I say I am spoiled because when I am staying at Ko Olina I also book a two or three days at the Royal Kuhio downtown through DR.  I love Waikiki’s beach, my wife likes the shopping and my kids like the action.  It allows us to spend some time there and have a place to change clothes, leave items that were bought and most importantly provide a place to park.  We don’t sleep there unless we have some night activity and we don’t feel like driving back to Ko Olina and that has only happened once or twice.  Ko Olina is not that far from downtown.  Heck,  from where I live from Los Angeles, Waikiki to Ko Olina is down the block.



We have been to all 6 islands that you can go to and love them all but we love Honolulu the best because of all that there is to do and we don't need a car. One of the things that I always say about going to Hawaii is if you must rent a car why stay in Honolulu.   All of the Islands are great but in Honolulu a car is expensive to park, parking is hard to find, and the traffic is bad.  Therefore, I can see the benefit of staying in Ko Olina when on Oahu with a car.

I can see from your post that you and your family have found some of the benefits of staying  in Honolulu and I don't believe you have even touched the surface of some of the things to do that I mentioned in the previous e-mail.  From 2009 to 2020 we have spent most of the winter in Honolulu and have become very familiar with what there is to do.

We are in our 70's so while we can drive we would rather not so staying in Honolulu and being able to take THE BUS, at the inexpensive Senior rates or with a bus pass, works out great.  When my husband worked he travelled to Queens from Suffolk County with a minimum 1-1/2 hour drive each way so we know what long distances are but that was to make money not to spend money and enjoy ourselves.  Also, we don't drink and drive but we do like to drink so not having the burden of a car to get around is another factor for an enjoyable vacation for us.  By the way you can get to the North Shore by Bus and with our Senior Bus Pass it is Free.  However, we usually do rent a car for the day when we want to go out exploring to far out other parts of the island since THE BUS doesn't run that frequently there and it does take a long time with many stops.


----------



## dayooper

csalter2 said:


> I was not stating that anyone in particular was looking down on Diamond.  However, I have noticed quite a few from HGV mention bringing DR properties up to HGV standards. I would be the first to say that DR has some dogs for resorts, but they also have some real “diamonds” in their collections and properties that with a little renovation and TLC could be very, very special.



I can only speak for myself, but I don’t think saying bringing resorts up to HGVC standards is looking down on DRI. Looking at pictures that DRI uses and personal albums (like @dougp26364 ), there is a difference in style and upkeep between the two. One of the things that my family and I like is when we go to an HGVC resort, there are no surprises. We have walked into hotel rooms that are dirty, broken and not well maintained. Walking into an HGVC resort, we know what to expect. We know that we won't get old or worn furniture, carpeting or bedding. We will get properly working appliances, very comfortable beds and working electronics. We know the unit will be very clean and, if it's not, it will be taken care of quickly. Here's an example. In 2018, we spent a week in Vegas at HGVC on The Boulevard. Our dishwasher was making clunking noises as it ran, very annoying. We always try to let the front desk know of any issues so they could look into them after we check out. They called us and scheduled a time for Maintenence to take a peek. They looked at it, determined it was failing and replaced it. All within an hour. It was quick, painless and they never let the appliance fail, causing more damage (or the owner not being able to use the appliance). I don't know if DRI has the same consistent maintenance/upgrade policies/schedules, but the online reviews of many DRI resorts I have read suggest otherwise. Yes, there are some that are very well maintained, but it's not consistent from resort to resort. If HGVC can bring up the level of consistency throughout the system while not raising (or even lowering) MF's, that's a huge win for every DRI member.


----------



## csalter2

Tamaradarann said:


> We have been to all 6 islands that you can go to and love them all but we love Honolulu the best because of all that there is to do and we don't need a car. One of the things that I always say about going to Hawaii is if you must rent a car why stay in Honolulu.   All of the Islands are great but in Honolulu a car is expensive to park, parking is hard to find, and the traffic is bad.  Therefore, I can see the benefit of staying in Ko Olina when on Oahu with a car.
> 
> I can see from your post that you and your family have found some of the benefits of staying  in Honolulu and I don't believe you have even touched the surface of some of the things to do that I mentioned in the previous e-mail.  From 2009 to 2020 we have spent most of the winter in Honolulu and have become very familiar with what there is to do.
> 
> We are in our 70's so while we can drive we would rather not so staying in Honolulu and being able to take THE BUS, at the inexpensive Senior rates or with a bus pass, works out great.  When my husband worked he travelled to Queens from Suffolk County with a minimum 1-1/2 hour drive each way so we know what long distances are but that was to make money not to spend money and enjoy ourselves.  Also, we don't drink and drive but we do like to drink so not having the burden of a car to get around is another factor for an enjoyable vacation for us.  By the way you can get to the North Shore by Bus and with our Senior Bus Pass it is Free.  However, we usually do rent a car for the day when we want to go out exploring to far out other parts of the island since THE BUS doesn't run that frequently there and it does take a long time with many stops.



Ha! I’ve been going to Hawaii since the mid 90’s. I used to stay mostly in the Honolulu/Waikiki area until I bought Marriott’s Ko Olina in 2003. I’m quite familiar with downtown and used to take the bus to almost every place to save money back in my early years going there. I was born and raised in New York City so public transportation is familiar to me as well. I’ve lived in California for the last 37 years and got spoiled driving everywhere. I’ve never drunk alcohol so driving isn’t an issue. I think I have chilled out a bit. I am not one who needs to be in the city, but I like to have access to the things it offers when I want it. I live in Orange County California. I live smack in the middle between L.A. and San Diego. I love going to L.A. to watch the Lakers and or San Diego to catch plays at the Old Globe or The La Jolla Playhouse. Cities offer lots of fun to do. However, I love the Hawaiian scenery. I absolutely love Kauai! After  Oahu, it’s my second favorite island because of its pure beauty and simplicity. I can appreciate that. I live 5 minutes by car from Laguna Beach and the coastal cities of Orange County but their beauty  doesn’t compare to that of Hawaii.

Sounds like we have lots in common. I’m not in my 70’s but my early 60’s, but I have learned to enjoy just being able to visit the beautiful place on earth. Time sharing has been one avenue to help facilitate that.


----------



## csalter2

dayooper said:


> I can only speak for myself, but I don’t think saying bringing resorts up to HGVC standards is looking down on DRI. Looking at pictures that DRI uses and personal albums (like @dougp26364 ), there is a difference in style and upkeep between the two. One of the things that my family and I like is when we go to an HGVC resort, there are no surprises. We have walked into hotel rooms that are dirty, broken and not well maintained. Walking into an HGVC resort, we know what to expect. We know that we won't get old or worn furniture, carpeting or bedding. We will get properly working appliances, very comfortable beds and working electronics. We know the unit will be very clean and, if it's not, it will be taken care of quickly. Here's an example. In 2018, we spent a week in Vegas at HGVC on The Boulevard. Our dishwasher was making clunking noises as it ran, very annoying. We always try to let the front desk know of any issues so they could look into them after we check out. They called us and scheduled a time for Maintenence to take a peek. They looked at it, determined it was failing and replaced it. All within an hour. It was quick, painless and they never let the appliance fail, causing more damage (or the owner not being able to use the appliance). I don't know if DRI has the same consistent maintenance/upgrade policies/schedules, but the online reviews of many DRI resorts I have read suggest otherwise. Yes, there are some that are very well maintained, but it's not consistent from resort to resort. If HGVC can bring up the level of consistency throughout the system while not raising (or even lowering) MF's, that's a huge win for every DRI member.



DR does lack consistency without a doubt. They’ve bought several that had financial problems whose resorts were in need of repair. However, there are the gems. One of the reasons I bought Marriott properties was due to wanting the consistency in the quality of resorts so I get it.


----------



## dayooper

csalter2 said:


> DR does lack consistency without a doubt. They’ve bought several that had financial problems whose resorts were in need of repair. However, there are the gems. One of the reasons I bought Marriott properties was due to wanting the consistency in the quality of resorts so I get it.



Absolutely there are gems! Cabo Azul looks amazing! I think Tahoe and Sedona Springs look nice as well. I'm sure if I looked more in depth, I would find others.


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## Fried_shrimp

dayooper said:


> I don't know if DRI has the same consistent maintenance/upgrade policies/schedules, but the online reviews of many DRI resorts I have read suggest otherwise.



In my travels with DRI I have only had an issue one time that could not be repaired (dead built-in microwave). They had to replace it when the unit was empty due to how it was installed and the work it required. They did offer to move us to another unit but we declined since it was just a weekend stay. Other than that, every issue was corrected in a fairly timely manner.

Now how many issues are found at an HGVC property at check in compared to a DRI property could be a good bit different but having never stayed in an HGVC property so I don't really know.


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## 1Kflyerguy

Fried_shrimp said:


> In my travels with DRI I have only had an issue one time that could not be repaired (dead built-in microwave). They had to replace it when the unit was empty due to how it was installed and the work it required. They did offer to move us to another unit but we declined since it was just a weekend stay. Other than that, every issue was corrected in a fairly timely manner.
> 
> Now how many issues are found at an HGVC property at check in compared to a DRI property could be a good bit different but having never stayed in an HGVC property so I don't really know.



We have experienced a few issues with HGVC units, but they usually make a solid effort to resolve them.  I think we had built in microwave fail on us, and they provided a countertop unit.    We also had a sofabed bed in the living room at Kings Land, that was really beat.  We were only using it as sofa,  but it was really uncomfortable.  I lifted the cushions and frame looked bent,  i guess some kids must have really been jumping or something..   Once again they replaced the sofa with a different one.


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## nuwermj

1Kflyerguy said:


> Then it sounds like Diamond must have a lot of unsold inventory they can use for their sales and add to to their points trust.
> 
> Developers use ROFR as way to acquire inventory.



The HGV merger presentation slides say that Diamond has "4 years of excess developed inventory available for sale." And that is without using ROFR. As Mark Wang stated in the written section: "The maturity of Diamond’s trust will also provide us with the ability to recapture a high level of inventory, which creates a capital-efficient model." Diamond's inventory recapture model makes ROFR unnecessary.


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## dayooper

nuwermj said:


> The HGV merger presentation slides say that Diamond has "4 years of excess developed inventory available for sale." And that is without using ROFR. As Mark Wang stated in the written section: "*The maturity of Diamond’s trust will also provide us with the ability to recapture a high level of inventory, which creates a capital-efficient model.*" Diamond's inventory recapture model makes ROFR unnecessary.



Can someone explain who this works?


----------



## Tamaradarann

csalter2 said:


> Ha! I’ve been going to Hawaii since the mid 90’s. I used to stay mostly in the Honolulu/Waikiki area until I bought Marriott’s Ko Olina in 2003. I’m quite familiar with downtown and used to take the bus to almost every place to save money back in my early years going there. I was born and raised in New York City so public transportation is familiar to me as well. I’ve lived in California for the last 37 years and got spoiled driving everywhere. I’ve never drunk alcohol so driving isn’t an issue. I think I have chilled out a bit. I am not one who needs to be in the city, but I like to have access to the things it offers when I want it. I live in Orange County California. I live smack in the middle between L.A. and San Diego. I love going to L.A. to watch the Lakers and or San Diego to catch plays at the Old Globe or The La Jolla Playhouse. Cities offer lots of fun to do. However, I love the Hawaiian scenery. I absolutely love Kauai! After  Oahu, it’s my second favorite island because of its pure beauty and simplicity. I can appreciate that. I live 5 minutes by car from Laguna Beach and the coastal cities of Orange County but their beauty  doesn’t compare to that of Hawaii.
> 
> Sounds like we have lots in common. I’m not in my 70’s but my early 60’s, but I have learned to enjoy just being able to visit the beautiful place on earth. Time sharing has been one avenue to help facilitate that.



We were brought up on Long Island where without a car you are totally disfuncional so I know the feeling that you are conveying when you say you got "spoiled into driving everywhere".   Vacations before 2001 in our lives were always a car vacation.  Either we drove to the vacation, or if we took a plane we rushed to rent a car at the destination so we could drive to everything.  In 2001 we took a flight to Miami to stay in Miami South Beach and didn't get a car.  That changed our vacation lives.  That location was so prime for vacationing without a car that we have always strived to vacation in an area that we didn't need a car since.  Waikiki is certainly one of those areas and with the weather being so nice you can do it 12 months a year.  Other areas that we have vacationed in without a car are; New York City, Washington DC, New Orleans, San Diego Gas Lamp District, San Francisco.


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## nuwermj

dayooper said:


> Can someone explain who this [inventory recapture model] works?



Basically Diamond holds an option to acquire defaulted points from the HOA. Generally, 12-15% of the points controlled by an HOA are in default. On the plus side this system subsidizes the bad debt line in the HOA budget. On the negative side the model requires a weak secondary market for points. Diamond claims their cost of recovering a week's equivalent in points is $750. The following is Diamond's description of the model.

==quote==
With respect to members who have failed to pay their annual maintenance fee or any assessment, we have entered into IRAAs with a substantial majority of the Collection Associations and HOAs for our managed resorts in North America, together with similar arrangements with the European Collection and a majority of our European managed resorts. Each agreement provides that in the event that a member fails to pay these amounts, we have the option to enforce the rights of the HOA or Collection Association with respect to the subject VOI, which includes preventing members from using their points or intervals and, if the delinquency continues, recovering the property in the name of the HOA or Collection Association. Our rights to recover VOIs for failure to pay annual maintenance fees or assessments are subject to any prior security interest encumbering such VOI, including any interest we hold as a lender on a consumer loan. We are responsible for payment of certain fees, ranging from 30% to 100% of the annual maintenance fees relating to the defaulted intervals or points. Depending upon whether the VOI in default is intervals or points, recovery is effected through a foreclosure proceeding or by contract termination. The recovery of points is more efficient than the recovery of intervals, because the recovery of intervals is governed by local real estate foreclosure laws that significantly lengthen recovery periods and increase the cost of recovery.

Under the terms of our IRAAs, we are granted full use of the inventory as a result of delinquent annual maintenance fees or assessments for rental and marketing purposes, and we are under no obligation to commence recovery proceedings. ... Upon recovery, the HOA or Collection Association transfers title to the VOI to us, and we are responsible for all annual maintenance fees and assessments thereafter. We have written or oral agreements with most of our European HOAs that provide us similar rights with respect to recovering delinquent VOIs. After recovery, VOIs are returned to our inventory and become available for sale. Although we recover inventory in the form of intervals as well as points, all inventory recovered is sold in the form of points. Recovered intervals are transferred to one of the Diamond Collections and become part of our points-based system.

VOIs recovered through the default process are added to our existing inventory and resold at full retail value. Although the volume of points or intervals that we recover could fluctuate in the future for various reasons, we have recovered in the ordinary course of our business approximately 2% to 5% of the total outstanding VOIs in each of the past five years. Recovered VOI inventory may be sold by us in the form of points to new customers or existing members.

==end quote==


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## ljmiii

nuwermj said:


> Basically Diamond holds an option to acquire defaulted points from the HOA. Generally, 12-15% of the points controlled by an HOA are in default....


Thank you. This was very informative.


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## dayooper

nuwermj said:


> Basically Diamond holds an option to acquire defaulted points from the HOA. Generally, 12-15% of the points controlled by an HOA are in default. On the plus side this system subsidizes the bad debt line in the HOA budget. On the negative side the model requires a weak secondary market for points. Diamond claims their cost of recovering a week's equivalent in points is $750. The following is Diamond's description of the model.
> 
> ==quote==
> With respect to members who have failed to pay their annual maintenance fee or any assessment, we have entered into IRAAs with a substantial majority of the Collection Associations and HOAs for our managed resorts in North America, together with similar arrangements with the European Collection and a majority of our European managed resorts. Each agreement provides that in the event that a member fails to pay these amounts, we have the option to enforce the rights of the HOA or Collection Association with respect to the subject VOI, which includes preventing members from using their points or intervals and, if the delinquency continues, recovering the property in the name of the HOA or Collection Association. Our rights to recover VOIs for failure to pay annual maintenance fees or assessments are subject to any prior security interest encumbering such VOI, including any interest we hold as a lender on a consumer loan. We are responsible for payment of certain fees, ranging from 30% to 100% of the annual maintenance fees relating to the defaulted intervals or points. Depending upon whether the VOI in default is intervals or points, recovery is effected through a foreclosure proceeding or by contract termination. The recovery of points is more efficient than the recovery of intervals, because the recovery of intervals is governed by local real estate foreclosure laws that significantly lengthen recovery periods and increase the cost of recovery.
> 
> Under the terms of our IRAAs, we are granted full use of the inventory as a result of delinquent annual maintenance fees or assessments for rental and marketing purposes, and we are under no obligation to commence recovery proceedings. ... Upon recovery, the HOA or Collection Association transfers title to the VOI to us, and we are responsible for all annual maintenance fees and assessments thereafter. We have written or oral agreements with most of our European HOAs that provide us similar rights with respect to recovering delinquent VOIs. After recovery, VOIs are returned to our inventory and become available for sale. Although we recover inventory in the form of intervals as well as points, all inventory recovered is sold in the form of points. Recovered intervals are transferred to one of the Diamond Collections and become part of our points-based system.
> 
> VOIs recovered through the default process are added to our existing inventory and resold at full retail value. Although the volume of points or intervals that we recover could fluctuate in the future for various reasons, we have recovered in the ordinary course of our business approximately 2% to 5% of the total outstanding VOIs in each of the past five years. Recovered VOI inventory may be sold by us in the form of points to new customers or existing members.
> 
> ==end quote==



Perfect. Thanks!


----------



## CalGalTraveler

@nuwermj This is extremely helpful info. Where was this published? Can this policy be changed? or is this part of a contractual trust agreement with customers?

For example: _"Although we recover inventory in the form of intervals as well as points, all inventory recovered is sold in the form of points."_ 
Could this be changed if HGVC wanted to keep the recovered intervals as weeks instead of points to put into the HGVC system?


----------



## CalGalTraveler

nuwermj said:


> Basically Diamond holds an option to acquire defaulted points from the HOA. Generally, 12-15% of the points controlled by an HOA are in default. On the plus side this system subsidizes the bad debt line in the HOA budget. On the negative side the model requires a weak secondary market for points. Diamond claims their cost of recovering a week's equivalent in points is $750. The following is Diamond's description of the model.
> 
> ==quote==
> With respect to members who have failed to pay their annual maintenance fee or any assessment, we have entered into IRAAs with a substantial majority of the Collection Associations and HOAs for our managed resorts in North America, together with similar arrangements with the European Collection and a majority of our European managed resorts. Each agreement provides that in the event that a member fails to pay these amounts, we have the option to enforce the rights of the HOA or Collection Association with respect to the subject VOI, which includes preventing members from using their points or intervals and, if the delinquency continues, recovering the property in the name of the HOA or Collection Association. Our rights to recover VOIs for failure to pay annual maintenance fees or assessments are subject to any prior security interest encumbering such VOI, including any interest we hold as a lender on a consumer loan. We are responsible for payment of certain fees, ranging from 30% to 100% of the annual maintenance fees relating to the defaulted intervals or points. Depending upon whether the VOI in default is intervals or points, recovery is effected through a foreclosure proceeding or by contract termination. The recovery of points is more efficient than the recovery of intervals, because the recovery of intervals is governed by local real estate foreclosure laws that significantly lengthen recovery periods and increase the cost of recovery.
> 
> Under the terms of our IRAAs, we are granted full use of the inventory as a result of delinquent annual maintenance fees or assessments for rental and marketing purposes, and we are under no obligation to commence recovery proceedings. ... Upon recovery, the HOA or Collection Association transfers title to the VOI to us, and we are responsible for all annual maintenance fees and assessments thereafter. We have written or oral agreements with most of our European HOAs that provide us similar rights with respect to recovering delinquent VOIs. After recovery, VOIs are returned to our inventory and become available for sale. Although we recover inventory in the form of intervals as well as points, all inventory recovered is sold in the form of points. Recovered intervals are transferred to one of the Diamond Collections and become part of our points-based system.
> 
> VOIs recovered through the default process are added to our existing inventory and resold at full retail value. Although the volume of points or intervals that we recover could fluctuate in the future for various reasons, we have recovered in the ordinary course of our business approximately 2% to 5% of the total outstanding VOIs in each of the past five years. Recovered VOI inventory may be sold by us in the form of points to new customers or existing members.
> 
> ==end quote==




_"Depending upon whether the VOI in default is intervals or points, recovery is effected through a foreclosure proceeding or by contract termination. The recovery of points is more efficient than the recovery of intervals, because the recovery of intervals is governed by local real estate foreclosure laws that significantly lengthen recovery periods and increase the cost of recovery."_

IMHO...this statement seems to reinforce that points held in a trust do not fall under the protections of non-judicial, anti-deficiency laws for deeded weeks real estate in states such as CA, Florida, South Carolina etc. that we have with HGVC.  In addition to potential shell games of cherry-picking inventory out of the trust and swapping with an inferior interval, the potential that there could be a deficiency judgement in a trust is concerning e.g. they can come after your assets beyond the timeshare if you walk.  At a minimum a trust has not been proven in court to have non-judicial, anti-deficiency protections. In comparison, there is precedent for foreclosure protection in walking from deeded weeks. This is why I am wary of trust products and will likely never own one.

However I am not a lawyer so I will cc: @Grammarhero and @Fredflintstone for better interpretation of this statement.


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## nuwermj

CalGalTraveler said:


> @nuwermj This is extremely helpful info. Where was this published? Can this policy be changed? or is this part of a contractual trust agreement with customers?
> 
> For example: _"Although we recover inventory in the form of intervals as well as points, all inventory recovered is sold in the form of points."_
> Could this be changed if HGVC wanted to keep the recovered intervals as weeks instead of points to put into the HGVC system?



The quotation is from Diamond's financial disclosure document filed with the US Securities and Exchange Commission, the so called 10k document. It describes a contractual agreement between Diamond, Inc. and various HOAs, one contract for each HOA. It is not part of the trust agreement. These contracts can be changed or terminated. They are renewed annually. Selling recovered inventory as points is a Diamond policy. It is not a clause of the recovery agreement between DRI and the HOA. HGV could change that policy at its own will.

Also: the actual trust agreement is between the trustee, the developer (Diamond) and the HOA (The socalled Collection). The consumer (or points owner) is not a party to the agreement. The points owner holds what is called a "beneficial interest" in the trust, where the benefit is access to the deeds held by the trustee.


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## cindyc

karibkeith said:


> I am a DRI owner. During the past year, DRI announced they were terminating their association with II at the end of 2020 and giving a membership in Destination Xchange. When I did a search on DEX I found guides back to 2016-2017. It appeared to me that it was an exchange company for anyone to join., the latest edition is 2020-21 and it is a different guide than the one for members of the Club.



There are two Destination Exchange programs.  One is for the deeded week owners and is called Traditional Destination Exchange.  The program for Collections/Trust/Points owners is just called Destination Exchange.  I have access to both systems and the inventory is very different.  The programs for weeks owners is better than for points owners and a better value in my opinion.


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## dayooper

I wonder how much of Diamond is still owned as weeks and not in the club?


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## cindyc

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> People should also be aware that in the Diamond system, a 7-day stay with check-in/-out on Friday or Saturday will require fewer points than a 7-day with check-in any other day of the week.   The "week" rate in the charts only applies to those check-in days.



This is absolutely right, but I can't figure out why it is structured this way.  Is it to try to incentivize stays to begin on Friday or Saturday for simplicity on their end?


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## dougp26364

cindyc said:


> This is absolutely right, but I can't figure out why it is structured this way.  Is it to try to incentivize stays to begin on Friday or Saturday for simplicity on their end?



Way back when, we were told the increased cost in points was to cover the increased cost of housekeeping 7 day/week.

You’ll also notice that a two bedroom unit takes fewer points for a reservation than a one bedroom and studio reserved separately. One of the things that ticked me off was how there would be plenty of one bedroom and studio units separately, but few to no two bedrooms to reserve. Just how intentional this was to Jack up the price in points I can’t say, but it was an anomaly we noticed all to often for it to be an accident. Since we’ve been out of DRI for several years, I can’t even say if it’s continuing to happen.


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## cindyc

Fried_shrimp said:


> Legacy week owners do not have access to the Diamond portal because that is strictly for point owners (kind of like RCI having it's separate week/point sides of the website).



This has changed within the past month or so and deeded week owners can now book their units online as the points owners have done for quite some time.  It is an improvement that was long overdue.  Not that I minded speaking with the Owner Services, they were always very helpful.


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## Fried_shrimp

cindyc said:


> This has changed within the past month or so and deeded week owners can now book their units online as the points owners have done for quite some time.  It is an improvement that was long overdue.  Not that I minded speaking with the Owner Services, they were always very helpful.



Thank you for this update. I had not heard this and I haven't been a legacy week owner in the last 14 years. Good to know.


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## Tamaradarann

cindyc said:


> This has changed within the past month or so and deeded week owners can now book their units online as the points owners have done for quite some time.  It is an improvement that was long overdue.  Not that I minded speaking with the Owner Services, they were always very helpful.



To me being able to book reservations on line without having to call Owner Services is a really important thing.  I don't know how availability is in the Diamond System since I am an HGVC owner.   However, during the HGVC Club Reservation Period, which is 9 months before check in, booking reservations when they immediately become available at highly sought after resorts rather than having to wait until Owner Services opens up can be the difference between booking your reservation or having the Owner Services representative tell you there is no availability for that time period.


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## nuwermj

dayooper said:


> I wonder how much of Diamond is still owned as weeks and not in the club?



Follow the link the below. It is a google spreadsheet which @youppi maintains. Along the top are tabs. Click on "US Financial Report" or "HI Financial Report." The former is for the US Collection (or point trust) the latter is the Hawaii Collection. Scroll down a bit and you will find data for each resort. One of the datum is "Percentage of Units in US [or HI] Collection." In most cases 1-% will tell you the number weeks held outside the trust fund. Some of these deeds could be owned by Diamond. In some cases more than one trust fund owns deeds to the same resort, e.g. Sedona Summit. Sometimes deeds are owned by third party developers, e.g. Raintree owns a chunk of Polo Towers in Las Vegas. But for most cases this should give you a good idea. 

Also note, someone who is a deeded owner might be a Club member. That was the case, for example, with @dougp26364. The deed was valued at some number of points and those points could exchange within the club.





__





						HI, US and EU Collections & KBC & P@P MF since 2007 by TUG member youppi - Google Drive
					






					docs.google.com


----------



## Mongoose

geist1223 said:


> Worldmark and Wyndham did not merge. Wyndham through a predecessor bought the Develpment Rights from Trendwest. As a separate matter the Independent (LOL) Worldmark BOD hired Wyndham to be the day to day manager of the Resorts. An exchange program has been developed called Club Pass. You have to have WM+A or WM Developer sold Points to use Club Pass. Wyndham likes to inflate numbers so Wyndham count every Worldmark Member as a Member of Club Pass.  Though a large number of Worldmark Members can not use Club Pss. The Booking Window for Club Pass i believe opens at 9 months.
> 
> WM+A Worldmark Points are Points acquired bebore "XX" date in November 2006 from whatever source. The Exchange Fee is $99. The Point Cost for an Exchange is quite high ie Wyndham Bali Hai 2 Bedroom through RCI is 10,000 Worldmark Points. Through Club Pass the same unit is 20,000 Worldmark Points. It appears that the rough equivalency between Wyndham and Worldmark is 16 to 20 Wyndham Points per 1 Worldmark Point.


So no way to acquire WM+A points now and no way to acquire Club Pass without going through the developer?


----------



## Eric B

Mongoose said:


> So no way to acquire WM+A points now and no way to acquire Club Pass without going through the developer?



That about sums it up, but would be better asked in the WorldMark forum....


----------



## TUGBrian

well, thats going to be awkward if it gets any traction...









						Investor Sues To Halt $1.4B Hilton Grand's Timeshare Biz Buy - Law360
					

An investor in Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. has sued the timeshare company to block its planned $1.4 billion acquisition of competitor Diamond Resorts International Inc., arguing that a proxy statement supporting the merger omitted material information regarding the companies' financial projections.




					www.law360.com


----------



## PigsDad

TUGBrian said:


> well, thats going to be awkward if it gets any traction...


Investor lawsuits against M&As are very common, and they rarely if ever change the course of management.  I wouldn't lose much sleep over this, IMO.

Kurt


----------



## ccwu

Land and building disapprove HGV purchase of DRI



			https://landandbuildings.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/HGV-Release.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2RnsEKvA3e9v4OPAUXOj2IfAQ4VTlmlsOjH6xueXPCw625aQ0ZkX7XTxQ
		



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tamaradarann

ccwu said:


> Land and building disapprove HGV purchase of DRI
> 
> 
> 
> https://landandbuildings.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/HGV-Release.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2RnsEKvA3e9v4OPAUXOj2IfAQ4VTlmlsOjH6xueXPCw625aQ0ZkX7XTxQ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What is Land and Building?


----------



## artringwald

Tamaradarann said:


> What is Land and Building?











						About Us - LANDandBUILDINGS
					

Founded in 2008, Land & Buildings is a registered investment manager specializing in publicly traded real estate and real estate-related securities.




					landandbuildings.com


----------



## Sandy VDH

Tamaradarann said:


> What is Land and Building?



Land & Buildings Investment Management LLC (together with its affiliates, “Land & Buildings”), a shareholder of Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. (“HGV” or the “Company) (NYSE:HGV),

Sound like an investor LLC.

You beat me to it @artringwald


----------



## brp

ccwu said:


> Land and building disapprove HGV purchase of DRI
> 
> 
> 
> https://landandbuildings.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/HGV-Release.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2RnsEKvA3e9v4OPAUXOj2IfAQ4VTlmlsOjH6xueXPCw625aQ0ZkX7XTxQ



Their comment about "ceding control to Apollo" is certainly a valid concern that has been brought up here previously. 28% and two Board seats is substantial.

Cheers.


----------



## escanoe

brp said:


> Their comment about "ceding control to 28% and two Board seats is substantial.



How substantial is it? [rhetorical]

If they get two board seats by adding two new ones, Apollo will control 2 out of 9.

Are common stock shares so diluted in ownership that Apollo will have outsized influence? [I have no idea.]


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Here is the slide deck with their complaints:



			https://landandbuildings.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/LandB-HGV-Presentation-May-2021.pdf
		


IMO...Apollo control, and DRI drag on earnings is concerning. I would be fine if HGV remained separate. Some of the Embarc resorts would be nice but not if our ownership rights or MF increase dramatically to support paying for the acquisition.


----------



## hurnik

CalGalTraveler said:


> Here is the slide deck with their complaints:
> 
> 
> 
> https://landandbuildings.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/LandB-HGV-Presentation-May-2021.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> IMO...Apollo control, and DRI drag on earnings is concerning. I would be fine if HGV remained separate. Some of the Embarc resorts would be nice but not if our ownership rights or MF increase dramatically to support paying for the acquisition.



Is there a slide deck with the HGV full responses?  The overlays used in the L&B response to the response hide the full text.
I notice they are playing (L&B) with words a bit based upon some of what I *can* see in the HGV response to (IMO) take things out of context a bit.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Sandy VDH said:


> Land & Buildings Investment Management LLC (together with its affiliates, “Land & Buildings”), a shareholder of Hilton Grand Vacations Inc. (“HGV” or the “Company) (NYSE:HGV),
> 
> Sound like an investor LLC.
> 
> You beat me to it @artringwald



How large is their share of HGVC? If small, it doesn't really matter. If large, it could torpedo the purchase when they vote in June.


----------



## dayooper

hurnik said:


> Is there a slide deck with the HGV full responses?  The overlays used in the L&B response to the response hide the full text.
> *I notice they are playing (L&B) with words a bit* based upon some of what I *can* see in the HGV response to (IMO) take things out of context a bit.



I feel this as well. It's a propaganda piece slanted in their direction. It doesn't make them wrong (or right), but it seems to me they are trying to sway those that are on the fence to their way.

My biggest fear is that HGVC will be swallowed up by a different system. I would much rather have HGVC takeover (or merge and stay in control like the Diamond deal) than have someone like Wyndham take over and change things.


----------



## dioxide45

Fried_shrimp said:


> How large is their share of HGVC? If small, it doesn't really matter. If large, it could torpedo the purchase when they vote in June.


If they had the votes to stop the deal, they wouldn't spend the money on a lawsuit.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dioxide45 said:


> If they had the votes to stop the deal, they wouldn't spend the money on a lawsuit.



I didn't think they had enough votes on their own but if they could get other shareholders to join them.....then it might be possible depending on how close they are to begin with. Just as an example, if they owned 5% then they probably wouldn't stand a chance but if they owned say 25% or more, they might could get a coalition together to stop it.


----------



## dayooper

Fried_shrimp said:


> How large is their share of HGVC? If small, it doesn't really matter. If large, it could torpedo the purchase when they vote in June.



Not sure on percentages, but they hold 417,790 shares all bought in the 4th quarter of 2020 (at least as of 12/31/2020). To put that in perspective, Vanguard Group Inc owns 7,625,033 shares and there are 22 firms that have over 1,000,000 shares. There are 40 groups that have more shares than Land and Building. Again, this is all as of 12/31/2020.

Link


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

dayooper said:


> Not sure on percentages, but they hold 417,790 shares all bought in the 4th quarter of 2020 (at least as of 12/31/2020). To put that in perspective, Vanguard Group Inc owns 7,625,033 shares and there are 22 firms that have over 1,000,000 shares. There are 40 groups that have more shares than Land and Building. Again, this is all as of 12/31/2020.
> 
> Link



So the short answer is they don't have the votes to stop this, and probably won't impact the sale.  

The legal claims seem doubtful and unlikely to succeed in my opinion..


----------



## escanoe

Fried_shrimp said:


> I didn't think they had enough votes on their own but if they could get other shareholders to join them.....then it might be possible depending on how close they are to begin with. Just as an example, if they owned 5% then they probably wouldn't stand a chance but if they owned say 25% or more, they might could get a coalition together to stop it.



I don't really get the business sense behind the lawsuit either. Unless there is a peanut they hope to get as a settlement to make the suit go away it is hard to imagine them getting anything but a bill from a law firm.


----------



## Mowogo

escanoe said:


> I don't really get the business sense behind the lawsuit either. Unless there is a peanut they hope to get as a settlement to make the suit go away it is hard to imagine them getting anything but a bill from a law firm.


To get some concessions for minority shareholders in the final merged entity.


----------



## Zenichiro

Hilton Grand Vacations Announces Proposed Offering of Senior Notes
					

Hilton Grand Vacations Announces Proposed Offering of Senior Notes.



					www.businesswire.com


----------



## Talent312

Zenichiro said:


> Hilton Grand Vacations Announces Proposed Offering of Senior Notes
> 
> 
> Hilton Grand Vacations Announces Proposed Offering of Senior Notes.
> 
> 
> 
> www.businesswire.com



Note:
"The notes will be offered only to persons reasonably believed to be *qualified institutional buyers*...  or, outside the United States, to persons other than 'U.S. persons'...

IOW, banks or private equity (like Blackstone), and not the unwashed masses.
.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Has anyone heard today that the Hilton vote took place and failed? I'm trying to find info but am running into dead ends but was told this today. Something along the lines that HGVC felt Diamond would get more shares than they should and so voted against the merger. Any news from any of y'all?


----------



## tombanjo

I don’t think it required a vote. It’s a agreed on transaction as announced it the past tense, “bought” rather than “offered to buy”


----------



## 1Kflyerguy

Fried_shrimp said:


> Has anyone heard today that the Hilton vote took place and failed? I'm trying to find info but am running into dead ends but was told this today. Something along the lines that HGVC felt Diamond would get more shares than they should and so voted against the merger. Any news from any of y'all?



I have nor heard or seen anything to that effect.  Who was supposedly voting?   HGV is the company doing to acquisition, and i don't believe they will need to present the plan to shareholders, at least that's never happened with any of the stocks that I own.   The only time I recall a shareholder vote has been when the company i own stock in is being acquired, then you you have to vote for the acquisition or tender your shares.  Since Diamond is privately held, so there won't be any sort of public vote on their side.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

1Kflyerguy said:


> I have nor heard or seen anything to that effect.  Who was supposedly voting?   HGV is the company doing to acquisition, and i don't believe they will need to present the plan to shareholders, at least that's never happened with any of the stocks that I own.   The only time I recall a shareholder vote has been when the company i own stock in is being acquired, then you you have to vote for the acquisition or tender your shares.  Since Diamond is privately held, so there won't be any sort of public vote on their side.



HGVC board is supposed to vote to accept or not accept the deal that was created back in March. That vote is supposed to take place the second week of June but now I've heard something different so just trying to find info.

Correct for Diamond.


----------



## Chika

I am a Hilton and Diamond Platinum owner and not certain how well this merger will go.  Began with Epic, Sunterra, Clubeck, and D.  All challenging.


----------



## Chika

DazedandConfused said:


> I am not sure this is good news or bad news for HGVC members, but I am leaning towards this is bad news


We have HGVC and Diamond.  Any news on giving up Diamond for more Hilton?


----------



## GT75

Chika said:


> Any news on giving up Diamond for more Hilton?


No, as far as I know, the deal hasn't even closed yet.     After/If it does close, I wouldn't expect much to change between the two programs for several years (if any at all).


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

Chika said:


> I am a Hilton and Diamond Platinum owner and not certain how well this merger will go.  Began with Epic, Sunterra, Clubeck, and D.  All challenging.





GT75 said:


> No, as far as I know, the deal hasn't even closed yet.     After/If it does close, I wouldn't expect much to change between the two programs for several years (if any at all).


If Hilton is well-managed, they will nod to Santayana, learn lessons of others when consolidating programs (think Marriott and Starwood), and avoid repeating the past.  This means taking enough time to work things out.


----------



## brp

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> If Hilton is well-managed, they will nod to Santayana, learn lessons of others when consolidating programs (think Marriott and Starwood), and avoid repeating the past.  This means taking enough time to work things out.



So, what you're saying is that it's a good thing our HGVC doesn't expire in 2042, like our DVC, if we want to see the HGVC/DRI integration? 

Cheers.


----------



## Magus

The transaction de-facto requires HGV shareholder approval because shareholders must approve the issuance of more shares in order to complete the transaction. This was from the original release:

"Transaction Details Under the terms of the agreement, the Apollo Funds and the other Diamond stockholders, including the Reverence Funds, are expected to receive 34.5 million shares of HGV common stock, valued at approximately $1.4 billion, subject to customary adjustments. Upon transaction close, existing HGV shareholders will own approximately 72% of the combined company and the Apollo Funds will own approximately 28% of the combined company. The transaction, which was unanimously approved by the Board of Directors for both companies, is expected to close in the summer of 2021, subject to customary closing conditions and regulatory approvals. ***The issuance of HGV common stock in the transaction is subject to shareholder approval.***"


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

brp said:


> So, what you're saying is that it's a good thing our HGVC doesn't expire in 2042, like our DVC, if we want to see the HGVC/DRI integration?
> 
> Cheers.


Could be!!!  I was also thinking about Alaska Airlines integrating Virgin America after acquisition.  They specifically tried to avoid the mashup issues that have occurred in other airline mergers, proceeding much more deliberately, and taking time to get things right.  

What they did, as suggested upthread, is to keep the two systems operating separately, while figuring out a combination strategy that would bring things together without alienating the customer base (after allowing for those VA customers who were going to be upset no matter what).


----------



## brp

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Could be!!!  I was also thinking about Alaska Airlines integrating Virgin America after acquisition.  They specifically tried to avoid the mashup issues that have occurred in other airline mergers, proceeding much more deliberately, and taking time to get things right.
> 
> What they did, as suggested upthread, is to keep the two systems operating separately, while figuring out a combination strategy that would bring things together without alienating the customer base (after allowing for those VA customers who were going to be upset no matter what).



Similarly, AA did a very good job with US Airways. My wife and I, inadvertently, ended up o the very last US Airways-coded flight (redeye SFO-PHL) and it had a lot of press, hoopla and freeze bubbly in coach 

Cheers.


----------



## NOLA47

So are you telling me that as a hilton grand vacations owner I won’t be able to reserve diamond resorts any time soon if ever??


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte

NOLA47 said:


> So are you telling me that as a hilton grand vacations owner I won’t be able to reserve diamond resorts any time soon if ever??


I don't expect that.  I expect that whatever happens will occur in baby steps.  For example, it should be relatively to cross-place a small amount of inventory in either platform.  Something like could even be part of testing out parts of larger code changes. 

But a full integration effort, where HGVC and DRI share a common platform where the two platforms talk to each other separately, or Diamond owners are moved to a HGVC platform, is a much bigger project and will require some time to implement.  In addition. HGVC probably still needs to work out exactly how the two systems are going to play together - what will be the respective reservation rights, relative values of resorts in each system, etc.


----------



## JIMinNC

brp said:


> Similarly, AA did a very good job with US Airways. My wife and I, inadvertently, ended up o the very last US Airways-coded flight (redeye SFO-PHL) and it had a lot of press, hoopla and freeze bubbly in coach
> 
> Cheers.



Just a slight clarification...it was actually US Airways that acquired American, they just picked American as the surviving name for the combined company. Current AAL CEO Doug Parker was the US Airways CEO and many of the US exec management team survived the transition while many of the AA execs did not.


----------



## brp

JIMinNC said:


> Just a slight clarification...it was actually US Airways that acquired American, they just picked American as the surviving name for the combined company. Current AAL CEO Doug Parker was the US Airways CEO and many of the US exec management team survived the transition while many of the AA execs did not.



Well, I guess it's semantics as this was considered a "merger of equals" from all I can find, and AMR held the considerably larger share. But, in the and, it kept the American name and the US Airways CEO. And he brought in many of his people.

Note that some reports, show AMR "qcquiring" US Airways Group








						AMR Corporation - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




But the result is the same. And the steps they took were, IMO, well-orchestrated and, in reference to this thread, a good example of how to do something like this. Not without setbacks, to be sure. But effective.

Cheers.


----------



## JIMinNC

brp said:


> Well, I guess it's semantics as this was considered a "merger of equals" from all I can find, and AMR held the considerably larger share. But, in the and, it kept the American name and the US Airways CEO. And he brought in many of his people.
> 
> Note that some reports, show AMR "qcquiring" US Airways Group
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AMR Corporation - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the result is the same. And the steps they took were, IMO, well-orchestrated and, in reference to this thread, a good example of how to do something like this. Not without setbacks, to be sure. But effective.
> 
> Cheers.



Yeah, AA/US was definitely structured and portrayed as a merger of equals at the time, but you can always tell who is driving the train (or flying the plane in this case) by who winds up in charge.

Having been directly involved in a "merger of equals" back in the late 1990s between two mega-banks, and many acquisitions before that, even in mergers of equals, someone is usually more equal than the other. In the AA/US merger, AA shareholders wound up owning more of the company because AA was the larger company of the two, but they were also the one in bankruptcy, and it was US Airways that was the financially stronger company (albeit smaller) that swooped in to do the deal to recapitalize and create the "New AA." The fact that US Airways management was the surviving management team tells you all you need to know about who was the "more equal" partner in this deal. That didn't happen by accident.

In my big banking merger, it was similar. My company bought a larger, but a somewhat financially weaker bank. We chose that weaker bank's name for the new company because they had the best brand name in American banking, and their shareholders wound up owning more than 50% of the new company, I believe. But that's where the equality ended. Our corporate headquarters in N.C. became the new HQ for the combined bank, and our CEO became the CEO of the new company. The CEO of the acquired company would be #2 in the new bank, and heir-apparent to the CEO role, but within a year or so, he was ousted due to his role in a couple bad business deals that went south, and our management team was then in total control. I have always suspected that we had uncovered those bad deals in the pre-merger due diligence, knew they would be something to hang around his neck, gave him the #2 job long enough to get the deal done, and then got him out of the door after some time passed. So even though it was structured as a merger of equals, it was really an acquisition, since our exec team wound up basically in control of the new company. The US/AA merger always seemed to be cut from that same mold.

While the HGV/Diamond deal was not a smaller company buying a weaker larger one, I think the reason Apollo structured the HGV/DRI deal as they did (rather than the original rumors in 2019 of an Apollo acquisition of HGV), was similarly motivated by which management team would control the company. By doing the deal with HGV in control, the HGV exec team would be the one in charge and Apollo would still get paid for their investment in DRI, and with a significant ownership stake in HGV for as long as they want to stay involved. I also suspect Hilton International preferred the HGV team to be the one in charge of the brands they still own.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

Well, the second week of June has come and gone and nothing yet. Sent an email to Maria Kalber (Sr VP Operations at Diamond) and she only responded that it hadn't closed yet. There have been some rumors of closing being pushed off to August but I have no way to confirm these.


----------



## dougp26364

Fried_shrimp said:


> Well, the second week of June has come and gone and nothing yet. Sent an email to Maria Kalber (Sr VP Operations at Diamond) and she only responded that it hadn't closed yet. There have been some rumors of closing being pushed off to August but I have no way to confirm these.



Your expecting to much to fast. Even though it might be a done deal, it takes a lot of time to wind its way through the legal process and then the process of merging systems. Marriott and ILG announced their merger in 2018. As far as owners are concerned, the ONLY movement has been that exchanges through II can be made without paying an exchange fee. So we’re three years down the line and the sales staff continues to say, “by the first quarter of next year.......”

The only thing to do is enjoy what you own, ignore the sales staff, ignore the rumors and make adjustments ONLY after there’s something presented in writing. Being anxious or spending time concerned about what might or might not happen is a waste of time. In the end, your only along for the ride.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dougp26364 said:


> Your expecting to much to fast. Even though it might be a done deal, it takes a lot of time to wind its way through the legal process and then the process of merging systems. Marriott and ILG announced their merger in 2018. As far as owners are concerned, the ONLY movement has been that exchanges through II can be made without paying an exchange fee. So we’re three years down the line and the sales staff continues to say, “by the first quarter of next year.......”
> 
> The only thing to do is enjoy what you own, ignore the sales staff, ignore the rumors and make adjustments ONLY after there’s something presented in writing. Being anxious or spending time concerned about what might or might not happen is a waste of time. In the end, your only along for the ride.



I'm simply regurgitating what the Sr VP told me several months ago (that the deal was expected to close the 2nd week of June). So I'm only expecting people to be held to their word, nothing more. Personally, I'd rather see this take YEARS to complete as the longer it takes, the longer I know I'm safe from takeover shenanigans.

I am simply referencing the completion of the purchase, not the merger of the systems. Until the completion of the purchase is signed, this whole fiasco can still go down like the burning of Rome, something I would be happy to see.


----------



## dougp26364

Fried_shrimp said:


> I'm simply regurgitating what the Sr VP told me several months ago (that the deal was expected to close the 2nd week of June). So I'm only expecting people to be held to their word, nothing more. Personally, I'd rather see this take YEARS to complete as the longer it takes, the longer I know I'm safe from takeover shenanigans.
> 
> I am simply referencing the completion of the purchase, not the merger of the systems. Until the completion of the purchase is signed, this whole fiasco can still go down like the burning of Rome, something I would be happy to see.



Then get ready for disappointment. The chances they'd spend as much money so far and this deal going south are slim and his brother none. 

Still, if you don't want change, you won't have to change. Anything guaranteed in writing from the original purchase will remain. 

You're best bet is to blaze on as if nothing has happened and never attend another owners update as long as you own either group. That is unless you actually WANT to join whatever merged product eventually comes out of this, which will have a better chance of being a disappointment than anything exciting. The merger will, however, offer options. My suggestion would be, if you want to keep those options alive for future possibilities, once they're offered in writing at the initial outset, jump on it then. It will only get more complicated and expensive to join later on down the road if history proves anything. 

You are so unlikely to lose any meaningful benefits currently in place that concern/worry is not warranted. HGVC has a very good fiscal responsibility for it's owners that DRI owners should be happy. One of the reasons we left DRI was how out of control they were with fee's while not providing equivalent quality. DRI fee's in Vegas were every bit as high as Marriot, but the percentage of cash going into reserves was pitiful and the quality was far below MVC. 

My fear was that DRI management would gain control of HGVC and I'd see a skyrocketing MF, just like what drove us away from DRI. If that had happened, I would have been putting my HGVC ownership up for sale. Having been an elite owner with DRI and a standard owner with HGVC and understanding both management companies, I'm considerably happier with HGVC controlling the purse strings. 

As far as an cross pollination between systems, it would be nice IMHO, but I'm not holding my breath nor holding onto my HGVC ownership with the hope I'll ever be able to book DRI resorts. If I were a DRI owner, except for some branding changes, I wouldn't expect to see much in the way of changes either. 

Where I might have some worry is if I owned one of the lessor DRI resorts or was with a resort group only affiliated with DRI. I can see the possibility that previous affiliations ending and/or the resorts not to HGVC standards being spun off or management contracts sold to someone else.  Possibly to a group less desirable the HGVC, which as a great reputation in the industry as well as with their owners.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dougp26364 said:


> Still, if you don't want change, you won't have to change. Anything guaranteed in writing from the original purchase will remain.



As we both know, in most every timeshare system, very little is written into the contract and most everything we do in the timeshare world is part of "benefits" which I am fully aware are subject to change. That is what bothers me. That being said, if I have to walk, I know I will have gotten my value out of the money I have spent having been an owner for 32 years now. I don't want to walk but I will refuse to start having to pay exchange fees to go to other resorts within Diamond or pay to roll my points over to the next year like HGVC does.

As for owner updates, I do the exact opposite and attend 10 to 12 a year. I usually get $200 a pop so the money from the updates covers about a quarter of my maint fees.


----------



## dougp26364

Fried_shrimp said:


> As we both know, in most every timeshare system, very little is written into the contract and most everything we do in the timeshare world is part of "benefits" which I am fully aware are subject to change. That is what bothers me. That being said, if I have to walk, I know I will have gotten my value out of the money I have spent having been an owner for 32 years now. I don't want to walk but I will refuse to start having to pay exchange fees to go to other resorts within Diamond or pay to roll my points over to the next year like HGVC does.
> 
> As for owner updates, I do the exact opposite and attend 10 to 12 a year. I usually get $200 a pop so the money from the updates covers about a quarter of my maint fees.



Attending is one thing, listening a d believing is another. 

I don’t believe you will see any material changes to what DRI members enjoy now. They will begin to offer “enhancements”, both real and sales staff imagined. But don’t believe anything they say and don’t worry about getting what they say.

That VP you spoke with likely told you what was true at that minute, but these things take time and there won’t be any date written in stone. It will happen, but it will be a moving date until everything is in place.


----------



## Talent312

Fried_shrimp said:


> I'm simply regurgitating what the Sr VP told me several months ago...



My contractor told me my project would take 2-3 months. It's been 6.
There's a reason for every delay... Permits, weather, custom orders...
The best laid plans of mice and men...

.
.


----------



## Fried_shrimp

dougp26364 said:


> Attending is one thing, listening and believing is another.



I did use the word attend.   

I'm just playing their game with the updates and letting them pay for a good chunk of my maint fees. Win/Win for me and the concierge (concierge gets a bonus for everyone they send to an update) though it's still a lose for the salesman.  I've been doing this ever since they changed their rules from max 1 update per quarter so about 8 years now at 10-12 meetings per year at minimum $200 a pop. Quite a nice chunk of change.


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## Zenichiro

__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com


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## Mongoose

I have 4 TS right now.  1 Hilton Odd, 7,000 points, 1 Hyatt Even 1400 points, 14,000 annual WM credits and 150,000 annual HICV credits.  My total purchase price for all 4 was about $2500 all in.  A little more than half of that was for my WM, which was fully loaded.  I've only been treated poorly by salesmen and I think that is universal for everyone.... I've sold 3 others for a modest profit and given two others back (VRI and HICV).  I love TS's, just take your time and buy resale at a location you want with a good company.  I like having a mix of different brands it provides more options.


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## Seaport104

Zenichiro said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com



I guess no one listened to this 









						Land & Buildings Believes Hilton Grand Vacations’ Proposed Acquisition of Diamond Resorts Would Overpay for the Company, Cede Control to Apollo and Dilute Shareholders
					

Today Land & Buildings Investment Management LLC (together with its affiliates, “Land & Buildings”), a shareholder of Hilton Grand Vacations I



					www.businesswire.com


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## ccwu

Hilton Grand Vacations Shareholders Approve Diamond Merger
					

Hilton Grand Vacations Shareholders Approve Diamond Merger



					www.businesswire.com
				





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dayooper

Already got my first request to call the marketing department for my trip next week. I’m sure we will be hounded for an update meeting. I think I will pass.


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## amy241

Seaport104 said:


> I guess no one listened to this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Land & Buildings Believes Hilton Grand Vacations’ Proposed Acquisition of Diamond Resorts Would Overpay for the Company, Cede Control to Apollo and Dilute Shareholders
> 
> 
> Today Land & Buildings Investment Management LLC (together with its affiliates, “Land & Buildings”), a shareholder of Hilton Grand Vacations I
> 
> 
> 
> www.businesswire.com



This is very troubling to read.


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## colatown

amy241 said:


> This is very troubling to read.


Since over 96% of shareholders, which includes them , approved the deal this didn't have the desired impact. Your link is from May 6,.


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## pedro47

colatown said:


> Since over 96% of shareholders, which includes them , approved the deal this didn't have the desired impact. Your link is from May 6,.


I was totally surprise of that large vote to merge with DRI..


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## amy241

colatown said:


> Since over 96% of shareholders, which includes them , approved the deal this didn't have the desired impact. Your link is from May 6,.



It’s not my link - someone else posted it.


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## dayooper

amy241 said:


> It’s not my link - someone else posted it.



That was a group that was very against the merger. The had a smallish stake in HGVC bought in the last half of 2020. They knew they didn’t have the votes to stop it so they were trying to convince others to vote against.


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## pedro47

The actual vote to merge was 95.6% in attended.

Those shareholders voted to merge with DRI according to the about news article


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## pedro47

Ops.the newspaper link now has disappeared.


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## dsmrp

Hilton Grand Vacations Shareholders Approve Diamond Merger
					

Hilton Grand Vacations Shareholders Approve Diamond Merger



					www.businesswire.com
				




Here's a link I saw tonight. Hope you can get to it.


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## winger

Fried_shrimp said:


> I did use the word attend.
> 
> I'm just playing their game with the updates and letting them pay for a good chunk of my maint fees. Win/Win for me and the concierge (concierge gets a bonus for everyone they send to an update) though it's still a lose for the salesman.  I've been doing this ever since they changed their rules from max 1 update per quarter so about 8 years now at 10-12 meetings per year at minimum $200 a pop. Quite a nice chunk of change.


Changed from max 1 update per quarter to what is it now?  Also, how do you get the $200 offers? That's sounds on the high side, my experience has been around $150 range.


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## GT75

winger said:


> Also, how do you get the $200 offers? That's sounds on the high side, my experience has been around $150 range.


That was from a DRI owner.    In general, I have been offered around $150-175 max also from HGVC (but I did earlier this year accept at $250 off MFs).    So, now $250 off MFs is my new requirement.


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## frank808

I never get offered at Hilton Hawaiian Village. 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## klpca

frank808 said:


> I never get offered at Hilton Hawaiian Village.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


They're on to you Frank!


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## dayooper

GT75 said:


> That was from a DRI owner.    In general, I have been offered around $150-175 max also from HGVC (but I did earlier this year accept at $250 off MFs).    So, now $250 off MFs is my new requirement.



I’m heading to Elara tomorrow and got my calls to attend a meeting (picked after the 3rd call in 2 hours). Found out some interesting things (to me, at least).

Offered $100 gift card to attended a meeting. Pushed hard to get me to go before I checked or was able to get to our room. We politely declined


Did not know I was full resale. Asked if I was the original owner as the account said there was no reservations from 1994 until 2019. The owners purchased in 1994. We purchased from them in 2018 and had our first reservation in 2019. Didn’t even show when our account was made. 


Really pushing benefits that many owners don’t know exist as thehook to get used to go.  


No concierge at Elara right now. Go to Vegas.com for show discounts.



On a different note, Planet Hollywood is starting to charge for parking. I contacted the resort to see if Elara guests had to pay. The resort said if we were using club points, the fee will be waived. My guess is open season or home season stays would be included, but external exchanges would not. I don’t know about Hilton Hotel guests.


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## dougp26364

dayooper said:


> I’m heading to Elara tomorrow and got my calls to attend a meeting (picked after the 3rd call in 2 hours). Found out some interesting things (to me, at least).
> 
> Offered $100 gift card to attended a meeting. Pushed hard to get me to go before I checked or was able to get to our room. We politely declined
> 
> 
> Did not know I was full resale. Asked if I was the original owner as the account said there was no reservations from 1994 until 2019. The owners purchased in 1994. We purchased from them in 2018 and had our first reservation in 2019. Didn’t even show when our account was made.
> 
> 
> Really pushing benefits that many owners don’t know exist as thehook to get used to go.
> 
> 
> No concierge at Elara right now. Go to Vegas.com for show discounts.
> 
> 
> 
> On a different note, Planet Hollywood is starting to charge for parking. I contacted the resort to see if Elara guests had to pay. The resort said if we were using club points, the fee will be waived. My guess is open season or home season stays would be included, but external exchanges would not. I don’t know about Hilton Hotel guests.



A little troubling on the one hand to hear that PH is starting to charge for parking. OTOH, if Elara guest using points to book get the fee waived, this could be a good thing. If you arrive at the wrong time, parking could be a little difficult as this was one of the few garages around that did not charge to park. Maybe now we'll be able to get a spot closer to the floor the entrance is on vs parking 3 or 4 floors up and either waiting on the elevators, which always seemed dirty to us, or hoping that all the escalators were actually functional. So maybe this is a good thing.

The overwhelming support for the merger isn't a surprise to me. Who really thought they'd do all this leg work only to have it fail at the end? 

Let the speculation of how the merged product will  work. I'm hopeful it's a better transition than the MVC/ILG merger, which has had very little movement so far as to have a combined product.


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## GT75

dayooper said:


> Offered $100 gift card to attended a meeting. Pushed hard to get me to go before I checked or was able to get to our room. We politely declined


IMO, the first offers are the lowest.  


dayooper said:


> Really pushing benefits that many owners don’t know exist as the hook to get used to go.


IMO, this is typical.    Of course,  the sales force doesn't really know any information on this.    What they do know is to sell you full retail.


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## winger

GT75 said:


> That was from a DRI owner.    In general, I have been offered around $150-175 max also from HGVC (but I did earlier this year accept at $250 off MFs).    So, now $250 off MFs is my new requirement.


To clarify, my experience is also from Diamond's side. Thus, my question of how he is (sound like it) getting $200 Diamond offers consistently.


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## bizaro86

winger said:


> To clarify, my experience is also from Diamond's side. Thus, my question to the how be is (sound like it) getting $200 Diamond offers consistently.



One of the main benefits to the merger to stockholders is that HGVC has cheaper sources of "tour flow" than Diamond. I would expect Diamond presentatipn bonuses to go down, not HGVC to go up.


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## BingoBangoBongo

bizaro86 said:


> One of the main benefits to the merger to stockholders is that HGVC has cheaper sources of "tour flow" than Diamond. I would expect Diamond presentatipn bonuses to go down, not HGVC to go up.



Along this line, it also gives HGVC direct access to current Diamond owners with different types of offers than they currently have while also lowering their cost (not only tour payouts) of acquiring a “new“ customer compared to today.  They know the % of tours they should turn into a sale and I can see they could increase that % with this acquisition.


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## dayooper

HGVC had their 2021 2nd quarter earning call on Friday and there was a bit of info available on how they plan to handle the different sections. Here are some highlights:

Says each group (bHC, HGVC and HVC/Diamond) will not have any disruptions in their purchased rights.
There will be “common currency” between the brands.
They are creating a new membership product that will make marketing easier to market. 
The new membership, introduced next year, will be available to purchase separately or included with any upgrade
There will be new promotions, includenhanced Hilton Honors benefits and other promotions
Looking to get several Diamond resorts up to brand 1st quarter of next year.
Looks like the pay to play prediction was correct. Didn’t specifically say that the new membership will be required to book across platforms, but that was my take. The big question is how much will the membership cost to buy separately.

Link to the full transcript here.

Edits: Sorry for the mess of edits, I’m at the airport typing this on my phone. Southwest delayed our flight by 1:40. Big fingers typing on a phone plus stupid autocorrect  is bad combination.


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## dougp26364

It will be interesting to see
A. The common currency
B. The buy in price

I’m definitely not interested in more points or deeds. I have all I need.

I might be interested in a buy in to move between HVC and HGVC. DRI had two locations we miss traveling easily too, Sedona AZ and Santa Fe NM. Estes Park was nice but nearly impossible to reserve.

Otherwise most of DRI’s locations are covered by MVC with better resorts in more prime locations.

Keep the buy in less than $1,000 and it will be a consideration. Over $1,000 and it’s doubtful I’ll see the benefit.


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## Seaport104

I am hoping the take the Virginia Beach resorts and move them into the HGVC category with an offer to the existing owners to convert them into HGVC units. Fingers crossed....


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## youppi

Info DRI members received from HGVC








						Any new info regarding DRI sale to Hilton?
					

So, does Mark Wang work for HVAC?  Who is David Katz?  I’m a little confused with this message.  Did someone gather this info and post it here or did Katz or Wang weigh in here on TUG?   First, its HGV or HGVC, not HVAC.  Let me make it really simple.  These excerpts were from the online meeting...




					tugbbs.com
				











						Any new info regarding DRI sale to Hilton?
					

So, does Mark Wang work for HVAC?  Who is David Katz?  I’m a little confused with this message.  Did someone gather this info and post it here or did Katz or Wang weigh in here on TUG?   First, its HGV or HGVC, not HVAC.  Let me make it really simple.  These excerpts were from the online meeting...




					tugbbs.com


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## dsmrp

It's a done deal.








						Hilton Grand Vacations Completes Acquisition of Diamond Resorts
					

Hilton Grand Vacations Completes Acquisition of Diamond Resorts



					www.businesswire.com


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## escanoe

I could use some more points, but not bad enough to make a developer purchase. I agree about $1k would be my limit to be able to use a common currency. The benefits would be not having to pay RCI exchange fees and resort fees when trading into HGV properties (outer banks is where that would be most relevant to me). I would also like better access to the Virginia Beach resorts, but I can't imagine summer availability will be that great through an HGVC/HVC bridge.



dougp26364 said:


> It will be interesting to see
> A. The common currency
> B. The buy in price
> 
> I’m definitely not interested in more points or deeds. I have all I need.
> 
> I might be interested in a buy in to move between HVC and HGVC. DRI had two locations we miss traveling easily too, Sedona AZ and Santa Fe NM. Estes Park was nice but nearly impossible to reserve.
> 
> Otherwise most of DRI’s locations are covered by MVC with better resorts in more prime locations.
> 
> Keep the buy in less than $1,000 and it will be a consideration. Over $1,000 and it’s doubtful I’ll see the benefit.


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## Ty1on

escanoe said:


> I could use some more points, but not bad enough to make a developer purchase. I agree about $1k would be my limit to be able to use a common currency. The benefits would be not having to pay RCI exchange fees and resort fees when trading into HGV properties (outer banks is where that would be most relevant to me). I would also like better access to the Virginia Beach resorts, but I can't imagine summer availability will be that great through an HGVC/HVC bridge.



They may do something similar to Wyndham's Club Pass that allows exchange between WorldMark retail owners and Club Wyndham Retail owners.  There is a fee for the exchange, I think it's $99. 



Seaport104 said:


> I am hoping the take the Virginia Beach resorts and move them into the HGVC category with an offer to the existing owners to convert them into HGVC units. Fingers crossed....



There are system and contractual reasons an acquiring company doesn't cherry pick acquired individual resorts into its original brand.


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## CalGalTraveler

One event that may be driving HGV to focus on early 2022 for partial integration rollout is that MVC is also targeting their years-in-the-making integration announcement at that time.

There will be a subset of Vistana and MVC owners who may use this as an opportunity to look around at competitors to research the best next step. Similarly, there will be uncertain Diamond and HGV owners MVC will try to attract.

Once they buy, it will be difficult to pursue these customers for several more years so they won't want to miss this window. There is only so much budget and vacation time. Competition is good...we are in both systems. Let the games begin.


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