# Marriott/Vistana overlay



## GregT

All,

I just started a thread in the Marriott forum -- I believe it is relevant for us as well -- I hope you find it useful?

Best,

Greg


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## DavidnRobin

For us on Tapatalk and not subscribed to the Marriott forum - link?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bizaro86

@DavidnRobin link below

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/marriott-vistana-overlay.286318/


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## farsighted99

While it sounds okay that we might be able to use our options for Marriott, I think it's difficult enough to book space at the Vistana timeshares as it is right now. I can barely get anything at my home base Nanea.  If Marriott timeshare owners can book our units, it may become even harder.  Or maybe I don't quite understand this.


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## grrrah

Went to an Owners update last week, and from what I took, Marriott/Vistana now are only selling inventory into Flex programs, and according the salesperson (his lips were moving), they are buying up inventory for Flex programs.  They are working on an updated exchange through interval international that would allow cross-booking between Marriott and Flex programs only, not the traditional weeks.  This is what Marriott wanted for the merger (for SPG/Vistana to be all points/flex based).  They did the typical "maintenance fees will skyrocket for non-flex owners", etc...  They first tried to get me to convert my points, and after refusal, tried to sell adding flex points to what we have.

I'm presuming us non-flex owners would have our inventory protected from the cross booking.  This may also make it harder for us to book at 8-months with more competition, but also presuming the flex owners would be using their points at Marriott properties.


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## Venter

Could I have some opinions from everybody.
I got a free ski week, biennial odd, at lakeside Terrace. I started the process December 2018 hoping it would be completed within 2-3 months. My thinking was that it would be great if Marriott somehow made an offer to retro resales in and I could hopefully use the week during spring break or rent it if I did not trade.
I enquired about the process over the weekend and was told it would not be done before May as the current owners still has a stay booked. I presume with Staroptions because May would fall within the summer time. I am now having second thoughts about the transfer as it may not be done by the time Marriott tells us what they are going to do. I live within driving distance and will use it. I guess I am answering my own question but would like to hear from others what they might consider doing in this situation. Keep or cancel?


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## VacationForever

I am in the camp that believe there will not be an overlay.  If they do anything it will be similar to the Wyndham, Worldmark and Shell model.


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## vacationtime1

I hope there is an overlay -- because it will create wonderful arbitrage opportunities.


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## DannyTS

IMO it does not make sense for MVC to buy Vistana, brag about all these new locations like Mexico and St John's and not create an overlay. If one thinks strategically in 5 and 10 years from now, an unified product is a clear winner. I just don't  see them not integrating the brands.

Like others, I hope they will offer a reasonable enrollment for _everyone_ in order to attract as many owners as possible. I am pretty sure that if they offer enrollment for $1000-$2000 a large % of the 500,000 owners in both systems will choose to enroll and MVW inc will make a lot of money _with a minimum sales effort and with an extremely low cost, _I think most of the dollars will flow to the bottom line_. _


I am more concerned about how the resale owner will be treated in case they decide the enrollment is not for everyone and how this may change the Interval trading  and the internal  Staroptions exchanges.


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## VacationForever

DannyTS said:


> IMO it does not make sense for MVC to buy Vistana, brag about all these new locations like Mexico and St John's and not create an overlay. If one thinks strategically in 5 and 10 years from now, an unified product is a clear winner. I just don't  see them not integrating the brands.
> 
> Like others, I hope they will offer a reasonable enrollment for _everyone_ in order to attract as many owners as possible. I am pretty sure that if they offer enrollment for $1000-$2000 a large % of the 500,000 owners in both systems will chose to enroll and MVW inc will make a lot of money _with a minimum sales effort and with an extremely low cost, _I think most of the dollars will flow to the bottom line_. _
> 
> 
> I am more concerned about how the resale owner will be treated in case they decide the enrollment is not for everyone and how this may change the Interval trading  and the internal  Staroptions exchanges.



In the Wyndham, Worldmark and Shell model, there is linkage in that developer bought points within a system can book across into the other systems at 10 months.  Wyndham also picked up excess units from the other systems and put these limited inventory into Wyndham inventory.  Marriott can pretty much do the same.


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## mjm1

Venter said:


> Could I have some opinions from everybody.
> I got a free ski week, biennial odd, at lakeside Terrace. I started the process December 2018 hoping it would be completed within 2-3 months. My thinking was that it would be great if Marriott somehow made an offer to retro resales in and I could hopefully use the week during spring break or rent it if I did not trade.
> I enquired about the process over the weekend and was told it would not be done before May as the current owners still has a stay booked. I presume with Staroptions because May would fall within the summer time. I am now having second thoughts about the transfer as it may not be done by the time Marriott tells us what they are going to do. I live within driving distance and will use it. I guess I am answering my own question but would like to hear from others what they might consider doing in this situation. Keep or cancel?



I think the most important question is will you use the unit there if all else fails. If so, you can’t lose. If MVC does create an overlay program , which I think they will, and if the enrollment fee is reasonable that is another benefit.

One thought that entered my mind is if a resale buyer has a voluntary Vistana unit they would be required to retro the unit into the SVN by buying something directly from Vistana. The last I heard it was a minimum of $20k. However, if MVC creates an overlay that same owner may be able to pay a relatively smalll fee to enroll in the overlay and gain access to Marriott properties. They still wouldn’t be in the SVN. They could still trade through II. That would be an interesting situation and I wonder if that’s how it would play out.

Best regards.

Mike


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## CalGalTraveler

mjm1 said:


> I think the most important question is will you use the unit there if all else fails. If so, you can’t lose. If MVC does create an overlay program , which I think they will, and if the enrollment fee is reasonable that is another benefit.
> 
> One thought that entered my mind is if a resale buyer has a voluntary Vistana unit they would be required to retro the unit into the SVN by buying something directly from Vistana. The last I heard it was a minimum of $20k. However, if MVC creates an overlay that same owner may be able to pay a relatively smalll fee to enroll in the overlay and gain access to Marriott properties. They still wouldn’t be in the SVN. They could still trade through II. That would be an interesting situation and I wonder if that’s how it would play out.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike



I am certain MVC is figuring all the angles including this one. Not sure how they will implement, but one thing is for sure - MVC will maximize their profits even if certain sub-groups of owners are disenfranchised. i.e. it will be a business decision.


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## VacationForever

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am certain MVC is figuring all the angles including this one. Not sure how they will implement, but one thing is for sure - MVC will maximize their profits even if certain sub-groups of owners are disenfranchised. i.e. it will be a business decision.


Agree.  ... and within legal means of course...


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## DannyTS

VacationForever said:


> In the Wyndham, Worldmark and Shell model, there is linkage in that developer bought points within a system can book across into the other systems at 10 months.  Wyndham also picked up excess units from the other systems and put these limited inventory into Wyndham inventory.  Marriott can pretty much do the same.



but do you agree with me that a reasonable fee, 1 or 2 k for an enrollment to an overlay system (even for the resale owners)would benefit MVC financially? I think the sheer number of people that would enroll means a lot of money that the sales force just cannot make up with the one by one re-conversion contracts.


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## VacationForever

DannyTS said:


> but do you agree with me that a reasonable fee, 1 or 2 k for an enrollment to an overlay system (even for the resale owners)would benefit MVC financially? I think the sheer number of people that would enroll means a lot of money that the sales force just cannot make up with the one by one re-conversion contracts.


No, I do not.   Because they make more money selling MVC points or Westin/Sheraton/Aventura Flex points, and they would also irate alot of recent buyers of MVC points or Westin/Sheraton/Aventura points if they let other owners into the system.

One salesperson said MVC folks visited the Westin timeshare properties in Cancun and Cabo to understand their system and indicated that it was best to leave existing systems largely as they have been operating and instead they will plan on possibly picking up unsold Vistana inventory to roll into the MVC system.  That is pretty much what Wyndham did, rolled in limited excess inventory from some Worldmark (and Shell... I am not as familiar as Shell) properties into the Wyndham system.


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## CalGalTraveler

DannyTS said:


> but do you agree with me that a reasonable fee, 1 or 2 k for an enrollment to an overlay system (even for the resale owners)would benefit MVC financially? I think the sheer number of people that would enroll means a lot of money that the sales force just cannot make up with the one by one re-conversion contracts.



It would make sense but I believe their greed will cloud their analysis.


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## DannyTS

VacationForever said:


> No, I do not.   Because they make more money selling MVC points or Westin/Sheraton/Aventura Flex points for alot of money and they will irate alot of recent buyers of MVC points or Westin/Sheraton/Aventura points.
> 
> One salesperson said MVC folks visited the Westin timeshare properties in Cancun and Cabo to understand their system and indicated that it was best to leave existing systems largely as they have been operating and instead plan on possibly picking up unsold Vistana inventory to roll into the MVC system.  That is pretty much what Wyndham did, rolled in limited excess inventory from some Worldmark (and Shell... I am not as familiar as Shell) properties into Wyndham system.


I just did the Lagunamar update a couple of weeks ago. I know, the lips were moving but i got the impression that a lot of things would change.

There is no evidence that, if they invite owners to participate, MVC's sales would slow in any way, shape of form. People buy from the developer, in a vast majority of cases because they do not know better so why would they complain? Not to mention, the enrollment offer would be limited in time and the MVC and Vistana sales people would just go back to the routine. Look at systems like HGVC, a great program for resale owners. The sales offices are doing very well. Surprisingly well.

IMO if MVC believes they can get quickly a couple of hundreds of millions from these enrollments they will do it because they can pay back some of the debt and that is great for the stock price. I am not sure their sales people will like it temporarily but that is secondary to the bottom line and to the stock price.


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## VacationForever

Keeping the 3 (Hyatt, Marriott, Vistana) and many subsets (Sheraton, Westin, Nanea, Aventura) programs separate lets them sell points many times over.


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## Moparman42

I am curious about them combining the programs as well.  Marriott is a points only based system where they say they don;t sell deeded property weeks.  So what COULD happen to our deeded weeks if they decide to go to a points only based system?  Any ideas?  could they force us to sell into the pool, or are we safe with the deeded weeks we have?   Just a curious thing since I like the fact that the owners usually get better room designations.


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## DannyTS

VacationForever said:


> Keeping the 3 (Hyatt, Marriott, Vistana) and many subsets (Sheraton, Westin, Nanea, Aventura) programs separate lets them sell points many times over.


Why would combining the programs prevent them  from selling over and over?


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## VacationForever

DannyTS said:


> Why would combining the programs prevent them  from selling over and over?


Selling one set of points as opposed to 3 + sets of points.


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## VacationForever

Moparman42 said:


> I am curious about them combining the programs as well.  Marriott is a points only based system where they say they don;t sell deeded property weeks.  So what COULD happen to our deeded weeks if they decide to go to a points only based system?  Any ideas?  could they force us to sell into the pool, or are we safe with the deeded weeks we have?   Just a curious thing since I like the fact that the owners usually get better room designations.


They cannot take away or change what you have.


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## DannyTS

VacationForever said:


> Selling one set of points as opposed to 3 + sets of points.


what is important is the number of potential buyers not the number of programs. Am i missing anything? 
I also think that the sales force would benefit greatly from a simplified, unified product


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## vacationtime1

DannyTS said:


> *what is important is the number of potential buyers not the number of programs.* Am i missing anything?
> I also think that the sales force would benefit greatly from a simplified, unified product



What is important is the number of dollars they can extract from those potential buyers.

Companies don't buy other companies to reduce existing revenue streams.


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## DannyTS

I am not sure why this would reduce the revenue stream: say they have 100 prospects today at WKV. Is it not more important what they sell to those people in that location  rather than how many programs the company may sell somewhere else?

Additionally, would a simplified, unified program with 150 resorts sell better or a fragmented program? If they had to design it from scratch how would they do it?


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## DannyTS

Moparman42 said:


> I am curious about them combining the programs as well.  Marriott is a points only based system where they say they don;t sell deeded property weeks.  So what COULD happen to our deeded weeks if they decide to go to a points only based system?  Any ideas?  could they force us to sell into the pool, or are we safe with the deeded weeks we have?   Just a curious thing since I like the fact that the owners usually get better room designations.


My best guess they may offer enrollment where you keep your week for your usage or deposit it for points and this is a decision you would make every year


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## KACTravels

We are going to an Owners Meeting at Kierland on Wednesday ($250 resort credit!). Let me know if you would like me to ask any specific questions and I’ll be happy to report back.


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## r1lee

KACTravels said:


> We are going to an Owners Meeting at Kierland on Wednesday ($250 resort credit!). Let me know if you would like me to ask any specific questions and I’ll be happy to report back.



I just left from there.  My wife took the 250.  I wanted the 40k bonvoy points.
They offered me a decent deal, was surprised that it wasn’t to bad.


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## magicjourney

If I were MVC/Vistana executive, I would vote for NO for low fee enrollment based on one fact: what tugbbbs proposes always hurts the company financially. The notorious one: Don't buy direct!!! 
If they need more inventory, they can always pick up from ROFR. Even hybrid package (MVC)/ Retro (Vistana) is better idea than low fee enrollment, IMHO.


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## DannyTS

magicjourney said:


> If I were MVC/Vistana executive, I would vote for NO for low fee enrollment based on one fact: what tugbbbs proposes always hurts the company financially. The notorious one: Don't buy direct!!!
> If they need more inventory, they can always pick up from ROFR. Even hybrid package (MVC)/ Retro (Vistana) is better idea than low fee enrollment, IMHO.



This is a novel business plan lol: do the opposite of what people say on TUG. The problem of course is, now that you commented on Tug, they should also do the opposite of what you proposed!

Joking aside though, can you substantiate why a hybrid retro is a better idea for the bottom line of the company?
My point is, if they offer enrollment to everyone , given the large ownership base, they can get IMO  200 million $ or more relatively quickly, with little effort and cost, most of this money will flow directly to the bottom line.

In your point of view they should offer retros (at 20k i assume). How many of those they have  to sell one by one in order to get get the same amount of money they would make with  a cheap enrollment? How many prospects do they have to see to achieve that? How much do they have to spend on sales incentives? How much commission do they have to pay to the sales people? How long it is going to take to achieve the same numbers?


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## CalGalTraveler

I think @DannyTS has a great point. The cost to sell which runs 30 - 50% plus the time it would take to convert might be more than the exec team wants to wait.  CEO's want stock to jump so they can get their stock bonuses and move onto the next company (or retire) with a huge win under their belt.

I could envision several tiers i.e.

Tier 1: e.g. Westin flex
Tier 2: tier 1 Westin flex + e.g. Sheraton flex
Tier 3: tier 2 plus MVC


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## pacman777

magicjourney said:


> If I were MVC/Vistana executive, I would vote for NO for low fee enrollment based on one fact: what tugbbbs proposes always hurts the company financially. The notorious one: Don't buy direct!!!
> If they need more inventory, they can always pick up from ROFR. Even hybrid package (MVC)/ Retro (Vistana) is better idea than low fee enrollment, IMHO.



Most Vistana timeshares don’t have ROFR so may be difficult to acquire inventory quickly and cheaply.


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## Ken555

pacman777 said:


> Most Vistana timeshares don’t have ROFR so may be difficult to acquire inventory quickly and cheaply.



If they really wanted to, they could task one buyer to grab eBay auctions, etc. It wouldn’t take much money for them to get the weeks, but this simply wouldn’t be sufficient quantity to make a difference for their bottom line. 

I think it’s inevitable they will find ways to squeeze us for more money.

*still happy with my WKV 14 years in.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mjm1

I still think they will do whatever they think will help bring new sales to them (ie an overlay program.) That’s why MVC offered to let prior owners enroll their units for a reasonable fee. It helped build inventory in the DC program because most of the resorts were sold out. That got owners who enrolled to try the points system and they became more likely buyers of points. One of the primary benefits is more flexibility. I can see the same thing happening here, but time will tell.

Best regards.

Mike


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## taterhed

Agree with much of the above:  CEO's are all about Sales, Sales, Sales.  
This reflects the current bottom line and maybe the next 5 years.
I think the majority of the management must have the attention span of a Jack Russell Terrorist.  "SQUIRREL!!!"

Look at the Hyatt points program:  Does that seem like a 'long term' strategy or 'everybody else is doing it, do it now!' kind of move?

Marriott is points-crazy and isn't building (general statement).  A 2010 enrollment-like scheme sounds very plausible to me.  I'm sure they are drooling to grab all the ocean-front properties for the sales-literature that they can....  Why not enroll?  Cash plus promises of Ka'annapali Ocean-Front-Center for the potential MVC points buyer.
Availability is not their concern....promises and cash.


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## DannyTS

it seems that big changes are coming to the "inefficient" Westin and Sheraton sales channels
Mar 05, 2019
*Q4 2018 Presentation*

http://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/a35c2aa5-903e-4237-ab47-77fc7ff23f7a


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## DannyTS

"solid potential for new destinations from the Hyatt brand". Why would they mention them if they were not serious about integrating the brands?


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## tschwa2

pacman777 said:


> Most Vistana timeshares don’t have ROFR so may be difficult to acquire inventory quickly and cheaply.


I think if they offered a general deed back for all paid in full and up to date on MF's and offered all owners a 6 month window, they would get a lot back and then after that they could take a look at what they still need and do a combination of additional take backs, buy backs and ebay purchases.


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## bizaro86

tschwa2 said:


> I think if they offered a general deed back for all paid in full and up to date on MF's and offered all owners a 6 month window, they would get a lot back and then after that they could take a look at what they still need and do a combination of additional take backs, buy backs and ebay purchases.



If they offered a general deed back for free ebay inventory would probably decrease fairly dramatically.


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## JIMinNC

Moparman42 said:


> I am curious about them combining the programs as well.  Marriott is a points only based system where they say they don;t sell deeded property weeks.  So what COULD happen to our deeded weeks if they decide to go to a points only based system?  Any ideas?  could they force us to sell into the pool, or are we safe with the deeded weeks we have?   Just a curious thing since I like the fact that the owners usually get better room designations.



Marriott is not a points-only based system. They have their Destination Club Trust, which is a pool very similar to the Westin, Sheraton, and Aventuras Flex programs, but they also have many, many pre-existing deeded weeks that were sold prior to June 2010 when the Trust product was launched. While it is true Marriott no longer actively sells weeks (except in some international destinations that cannot be held by the Trust), there are many deeded weeks still in the system that still function as deeded weeks. Some of those weeks have been allowed to "enroll" in the points system, but even then, the owners do not give up their deeds or traditional weeks usage rights, enrollment simply adds the *option* to convert your deeded week to Destination Points in any given year. One year you may chose to convert to Points, but in other years you may use your week or elect to use it in Interval. Essentially Marriott is a points system overlaid onto a mature weeks-based system. The weeks-based system remains and still functions much as it always did. The "catch" is, resale weeks owners cannot generally enroll their resale weeks into the points system without a significant purchase of Marriot Destination Club Trust points (their version of Flex).


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## Moparman42

JIMinNC said:


> Marriott is not a points-only based system. They have their Destination Club Trust, which is a pool very similar to the Westin, Sheraton, and Aventuras Flex programs, but they also have many, many pre-existing deeded weeks that were sold prior to June 2010 when the Trust product was launched. While it is true Marriott no longer actively sells weeks (except in some international destinations that cannot be held by the Trust), there are many deeded weeks still in the system that still function as deeded weeks. Some of those weeks have been allowed to "enroll" in the points system, but even then, the owners do not give up their deeds or traditional weeks usage rights, enrollment simply adds the *option* to convert your deeded week to Destination Points in any given year. One year you may chose to convert to Points, but in other years you may use your week or elect to use it in Interval. Essentially Marriott is a points system overlaid onto a mature weeks-based system. The weeks-based system remains and still functions much as it always did. The "catch" is, resale weeks owners cannot generally enroll their resale weeks into the points system without a significant purchase of Marriot Destination Club Trust points (their version of Flex).



Good information.  Thank you!


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## Sapper

DannyTS said:


> "solid potential for new destinations from the Hyatt brand". Why would they mention them if they were not serious about integrating the brands?
> 
> View attachment 10943



This screams integrating the Hyatt brand. Not sure how they will do it though.


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## DannyTS

Sapper said:


> This screams integrating the Hyatt brand. Not sure how they will do it though.


One idea is to use Interval to integrate all systems without the need the merge the trusts. I am thinking they can create an Interval MVC points system that only Marriott Vacation Worlwide resorts (including Marriott, Hyatt, Sheraton and Westin) can join.


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## kozykritter

Went to owner update at WDW today. Salesperson said that MVC will not be combining the three programs and that they will each be managed separately. MVC DC and VSE Flex owners will be given access to each other's inventory at 8 months out, initially using a system through Interval International and then eventually a direct system once the software catches up. VSE week owners will not be included in this access to MVC except for the same exchanges they've always been able to do through Interval. Hyatt timeshare properties will continue to be a closed system with no cross access to or from other programs.

I am a Sheraton Flex owner of two contracts and he suggested I trade my smaller contract for a Westin Flex contract in order to have priority access to more properties as things moved forward with MVC. I declined at this time.


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## VacationForever

kozykritter said:


> Went to owner update at WDW today. Salesperson said that MVC will not be combining the three programs and that they will each be managed separately. MVC DC and VSE Flex owners will be given access to each other's inventory at 8 months out, initially using a system through Interval International and then eventually a direct system once the software catches up. VSE week owners will not be included in this access to MVC except for the same exchanges they've always been able to do through Interval. Hyatt timeshare properties will continue to be a closed system with no cross access to or from other programs.
> 
> I am a Sheraton Flex owner of two contracts and he suggested I trade my smaller contract for a Westin Flex contract in order to have priority access to more properties as things moved forward with MVC. I declined at this time.


Although this is a salesperson lips moving, it is along the line what I expect will happen.


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## DannyTS

I am not sure how they would justify including the Flex owners in the exchange (relatively new programs) and no owners before those programs. It does not make any sense.


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## VacationForever

DannyTS said:


> I am not sure how they would justify including the Flex owners in the exchange (relatively new programs) and no owners before those programs. It does not make any sense.


It makes sense because Flex points are what Vistana now sells.  The new shiny thing that is generating sales.


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## DannyTS

VacationForever said:


> It makes sense because Flex points are what Vistana now sells.  The new shiny thing that is generating sales.


It still does not make any sense to me. They would discriminate for example againstathe owners that bought 3 years ago from the developer (when these programs did not exist) and favor those that bought 2 years ago because they just happened to buy what the company is currently selling.


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## mjm1

DannyTS said:


> I am not sure how they would justify including the Flex owners in the exchange (relatively new programs) and no owners before those programs. It does not make any sense.



I agree. Whatever they do they will want to maximize their market. That’s why MVC allowed prior weeks owners to enroll their weeks in the DC program. It got those owners exposed to DC and many of them have since bought points to supplement their weeks. It also provided instant inventory for all DC owners to access. I would think they will want to accomplish the same thing here.

Best regards.

Mike


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## VacationForever

DannyTS said:


> It still does not make any sense to me. They would discriminate for example againstathe owners that bought 3 years ago from the developer (when these programs did not exist) and favor those that bought 2 years ago because they just happened to buy what the company is currently selling.


People who bought directly from Vistana (and mandatory weeks) will still have Star Options to internally book within the system.  They may offer an olive branch out to those who bought from Vistana to convert to Flex system for a small fee to play in the sandbox.


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## Sandy VDH

Wyndham, I believe, wanted to integrate WM and Shell into their system.  But WM owners sued and won. They feared that the larger number of Wyndham Members would flood and use all their credits.   This limited options on how Wyndham was to directly integrate the systems.  Their solution was to take available Wyndham Inventory and swap it for available Worldmark Inventory.  Thus creating some dual labeled resorts, where it was possible.  There was also some small amount of inventory made available in Shell properties the same way.  Then any remaining inventory swaps had to be managed via Club Pass.  Yes you can booked WM via Club Pass but they end up managing the trade between them so it is not unbalanced.  It is not a good deal for VIP owners as your benefits do not translate over to the Club Pass.  

So how will Marriott deal with a variety of systems and structures?  Will any of the members of the components taken over sue Marriott, saying they are being plundered and restricted?  I don't know.  But given the credit system nature of WM it was a different animal to begin with, as it was a pure points system, no underlying deeds at all.  Perhaps that is why it was able to successful sue Wyndham.  Time will tell, but I assume it is more complicated than we think.  I know I am unsatisfied with how I have access to both Worldmark and Shell locations.  So don't set your expectations very high, unless you want to be very disappointed.


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## DannyTS

VacationForever said:


> People who bought directly from Vistana (and mandatory weeks) will still have Star Options to internally book within the system.  They may offer an olive branch out to those who bought from Vistana to convert to Flex system for a small fee to play in the sandbox.



I think this is what Vistana sales people  would like to believe. This way, until major changes are announced, they can continue to tell prospects how superior these products are.
I believe that would be a major mistake on all levels and the stock would suffer greatly as a consequence. 

By the way, does anyone know the percentage of Flex owners in Vistana? Say  there are only 25,000 Flex owners, how would an integrated exchange program work in terms of inventory when you combine that with 400,000 Marriott owners?


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## DannyTS

By the way, as reported by various sales persons, very few Marriott owners use Interval, they find it complicated and not reliable. I do not think a system that does not have a good inventory will cut it for the majority of MVC owners


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## vacationtime1

DannyTS said:


> By the way, *as reported by various sales persons, very few Marriott owners use Interval*, they find it complicated and not reliable. I do not think a system that does not have a good inventory will cut it for the majority of MVC owners



Consider the source:  a salesperson.  Salespeople want to sell DC points, not weeks (because Marriott doesn't sell weeks, except as part of packages or when those weeks cannot be put into the DC trust).  So they claim that weeks are cumbersome to use and that Interval exchanges are not reliable.  Many on this board will say that is just not the case.


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## Henry M.

I don't use Interval because I own in Hawaii, and most Interval exchanges are not comparable. In the 17 years I've owned my weeks, I used Interval one time. The exchange was so-so, though I did get a 2BR unit in the German Alps for my Maui studio. The unit was many rungs below the Westin standard, but was big and served its purpose. 

It is not easy to get foreign locations, and US locations just don't compare to the nicer Marriotts and Westins. When I first bought, Disney was part of II, but I was never able to find any availability, no matter how far ahead I looked, and what kind of units I searched. Now Disney is not even part of it anymore.

These days, I'd rather rent my week and find a place on VRBO/HomeAway or AirBnB if I want to go somewhere else. With the short term rentals, I'm not limited by timeshare locations and have a much bigger selection of where I can stay, whether it be in the center of a European capital, the beach in a remote location, or a cozy cabin on a mountainside or volcano. I can also just rent another timeshare, which is easier to do than exchange on II, when it comes to Westins, Marriotts and Hyatts.


----------



## tschwa2

DannyTS said:


> By the way, as reported by various sales persons, very few Marriott owners use Interval, they find it complicated and not reliable. I do not think a system that does not have a good inventory will cut it for the majority of MVC owners


You believe the reports by various sales persons? 
There are probably still more Marriott owners including many many post 2010 resale owners, not eligible for the DC and pre 2010 owners who either own lower value weeks and are a part of the DC and still find it more valuable to exchange through II, than Vistana owners who exchange through II and that includes SVN and non SVN.

Marriott has pulled back on the bulk deposits into II over the last 6 years which has lead to more Marriott DC owners pulling back from the II exchanges but there are still many, many Marriott II exchange members who regularly exchange their Marriotts.


----------



## VacationForever

Even though all of my ownership can be booked using StarOptions or Destination Club, I continue to use II to obtain some reservations.  In general, II provides value (low $/night) over internal booking systems.  For ease of booking, I use internal systems.  When I am flexible and want larger units, I use II.  There is a place for both.


----------



## dioxide45

It is quite possible that they only allow DC Trust point owners along with Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex the ability to participate in a merged program. This would "force" people to buy in to or convert their ownership in to these products. Potentially driving sales.


----------



## Steve Fatula

DannyTS said:


> By the way, as reported by various sales persons, very few Marriott owners use Interval, they find it complicated and not reliable. I do not think a system that does not have a good inventory will cut it for the majority of MVC owners



Been using II since 1999. Since there are only 2 of us, we only need a 1BR, so, I always lockoff my enrolled DSV2. Why do I do this? Because, I can *always* as in always every year get a 1-2BR somewhere I want to go for a mere studio lockoff (I value the lockoff at about $550 MF). That gives me far more value than electing for points. For my Spain ownership, there is no lockoff, so, I get far more value by electing for points since it will be very rare I would occupy there.

I doubt that only a few Marriott owners use Interval. Though, it depends what few means. And, what the context is. For example, what about those owners who only ever want to go to their home resort? Obviously, they would never use II or any other system.

I do agree there are Marriott owners who find it complicated, though it isn't to me. Unreliable? Well, again, depends on the context. If you want a specific week at a specific resort and nothing else, yes, it would be.

Points systems = flexibility. Weeks = value.


----------



## bobpark56

DannyTS said:


> By the way, as reported by various sales persons, very few Marriott owners use Interval, they find it complicated and not reliable. I do not think a system that does not have a good inventory will cut it for the majority of MVC owners


Funny! We purchased Grande Vista in 2006 and have traded it every year through Interval...for some very nice stays. Marriott Marbella, Playa Anadaluza, Ko'Olina, Aruba Ocean Club, Kaui Beach Club, Custom House, Surf Watch, Grand Luxxe, etc.


----------



## DannyTS

bobpark56 said:


> Funny! We purchased Grande Vista in 2006 and have traded it every year through Interval...for some very nice stays. Marriott Marbella, Playa Anadaluza, Ko'Olina, Aruba Ocean Club, Kaui Beach Club, Custom House, Surf Watch, Grand Luxxe, etc.


I only transmitted what I was told, I am not claiming it is true since the source is not reliable. At the same time, I am not sure that  people who contribute regularly to TUG are a good sample of Marriott or Vistana owners in terms of Interval trades, best way to buy points, weeks etc.


----------



## ski_sierra

dioxide45 said:


> It is quite possible that they only allow DC Trust point owners along with Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex the ability to participate in a merged program. This would "force" people to buy in to or convert their ownership in to these products. Potentially driving sales.



I'm curious how the acquisition may impact the future additions to Vistana portfolio. Would there be new properties in Vistana? I like the current selection but it would be great to have a bigger internal network to use Staroptions.

For context: I'm researching purchase of SVV, WKV or SDO to stay at Vistana locations in Colorado or Hawaii.


----------



## bizaro86

ski_sierra said:


> I'm curious how the acquisition may impact the future additions to Vistana portfolio. Would there be new properties in Vistana? I like the current selection but it would be great to have a bigger internal network to use Staroptions.
> 
> For context: I'm researching purchase of SVV, WKV or SDO to stay at Vistana locations in Colorado or Hawaii.



I think it's very unlikely new properties will be in VSN. The license agreement for the Westin/Sheraton brands gave them rights to use it for specific properties for a specific payment. If they want to brand new properties with those brands they need to renegotiate (and pay more). 

Conversely, my understanding of the legacy MVC deal is that they can use the Marriott brand as much as they want. 

So from a cost-benefit perspective, using the Marriott brand is likely cheaper. Marriott branded sales centers are also higher productivity.


----------



## DannyTS

i got the Interval magazine in the mail today. There are 4 pages of advertising for the Vistana products: Westin Aventuras, Westin Flex, Sheraton flex. None for Marriott thought.


----------



## KACTravels

I think it is a Vistana version of the II Magazine.


----------



## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> i got the Interval magazine in the mail today. There are 4 pages of advertising for the Vistana products: Westin Aventuras, Westin Flex, Sheraton flex. None for Marriott thought.


The magazine is brand specific. You will probably see a note on the cover that it is for Vistana owners. I usually get the Vistana version but also have received the Marriott version that has Marriott advertising.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> I think it's very unlikely new properties will be in VSN. The license agreement for the Westin/Sheraton brands gave them rights to use it for specific properties for a specific payment. If they want to brand new properties with those brands they need to renegotiate (and pay more).
> 
> Conversely, my understanding of the legacy MVC deal is that they can use the Marriott brand as much as they want.
> 
> So from a cost-benefit perspective, using the Marriott brand is likely cheaper. Marriott branded sales centers are also higher productivity.


It is possible that VAC will renegotiate the agreements so they can utilize all the brands how they want. They may build out new Westin and Sheraton properties under such an agreement.


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> It is possible that VAC will renegotiate the agreements so they can utilize all the brands how they want. They may build out new Westin and Sheraton properties under such an agreement.



Absolutely its possible. I just don't see any reason why Marriott International would give them something extra in their agreement without getting something back. Maybe they're all still operating under the friends and family deal, but if I was a shareholder of just one of the companies that isn't how I would feel about it...


----------



## mjm1

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I just started a thread in the Marriott forum -- I believe it is relevant for us as well -- I hope you find it useful?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



I just saw this comment from the CEO included in the VAC quarterly update:

“Looking ahead to 2020, we have begun focusing on product enhancements for the various brands. Specifically, we are working hard to develop an integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott Western and Sheridan brands enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers. It will take time to finalize and roll out this new product for. However, we are very excited about the potential it will provide and we look forward to updating you in the future as this work evolves.”

So, a program is in the works. Of course no details are available at this time, so we will have to wait until some time in 2020.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## DannyTS

mjm1 said:


> I just saw this comment from the CEO included in the VAC quarterly update:
> 
> “Looking ahead to 2020, we have begun focusing on product enhancements for the various brands. Specifically, we are working hard to develop an integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott Western and Sheridan brands enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers. It will take time to finalize and roll out this new product for. However, we are very excited about the potential it will provide and we look forward to updating you in the future as this work evolves.”
> 
> So, a program is in the works. Of course no details are available at this time, so we will have to wait until some time in 2020.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


We always though this would be inevitable but of course, the devil will be in the details.


----------



## KACTravels

Interesting, regarding Buy Backs and Vistana ... 
"Around 40% of our legacy MVC owners are still weeks owners, ergo 60% of the legacy MVC owners are points owners. Now keep in mind, since 2010, we've been selling nothing but points. So over time, you would expect that percentage to shift. As -- the exit program, as you've mentioned, people that have owned the product for 10, 15, 20 years, whatever it is, and for whatever reason, because of a life event has decided that they don't want to own it anymore and we buy it back.
And then that happens, then we take that inventory and we put it into our Florida-based land trust, and then we turn around and sell them as points. So just doing that cadence, the percentage will continue to drop over time. When that -- what that number finally becomes and all that is hard to imagine. I would point out also that in the Vistana businesses, they had a very, very modest buyback program, and we've begun to amp that up, as you might imagine."


----------



## pacman777

Main challenge for Marriott to replicate this with Vistana is that most of the Vistana timeshares don’t have ROFR. Thankfully WKV does NOT!


----------



## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> We always though this would be inevitable but of course, the devil will be in the details.


Ideally it would be some kind of system where VSE owners can enroll their weeks (for a fee probably) and use their week, StarOptions (unless they own resale voluntary) or DC points. Thus also enrolled or DC point owners could book in to VIstana. Worst case would be that they would provide a cross booking benefit at _n_ months in advance only to those that buy something new from the developer (perhaps Flex or DC).


----------



## SteelerGal

KACTravels said:


> Interesting, regarding Buy Backs and Vistana ...
> "Around 40% of our legacy MVC owners are still weeks owners, ergo 60% of the legacy MVC owners are points owners. Now keep in mind, since 2010, we've been selling nothing but points. So over time, you would expect that percentage to shift. As -- the exit program, as you've mentioned, people that have owned the product for 10, 15, 20 years, whatever it is, and for whatever reason, because of a life event has decided that they don't want to own it anymore and we buy it back.
> And then that happens, then we take that inventory and we put it into our Florida-based land trust, and then we turn around and sell them as points. So just doing that cadence, the percentage will continue to drop over time. When that -- what that number finally becomes and all that is hard to imagine. I would point out also that in the Vistana businesses, they had a very, very modest buyback program, and we've begun to amp that up, as you might imagine."


I see that they will push Flex now.  I bet Flex ownership is less than 20%.


----------



## SteelerGal

I don’t understand why Vistana made the CA properties non-mandatory.  Does anyone know?


----------



## dioxide45

SteelerGal said:


> I don’t understand why Vistana made the CA properties non-mandatory.  Does anyone know?


They did it because they wised up and realized people could buy cheap resale and still get the benefits of using StarOptions.


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> They did it because they wised up and realized people could buy cheap resale and still get the benefits of using StarOptions.



Exactly. I think their original plan was to make everyone pay SVN fees, then they realized it was more effective to use SVN access as a cudgel to get folks to pay tens of thousands of dollars upfront vs collecting the small fee every year...


----------



## SteelerGal

Actually it hurt them.  By not having SO transfer nor aggressively buying back,  Westin Deserts w/ some of the highest MFs are selling for a buck.


----------



## VacationForever

SteelerGal said:


> Actually it hurt them.  By not having SO transfer nor aggressively buying back,  Westin Deserts w/ some of the highest MFs are selling for a buck.


Marriott's Desert Springs I MF is higher than Westin Desert Springs.


----------



## dioxide45

SteelerGal said:


> Actually it hurt them.  By not having SO transfer nor aggressively buying back,  Westin Deserts w/ some of the highest MFs are selling for a buck.


That doesn't hurt Vistana. They made their money upfront and the resale price means little. Though it can help them buy stuff cheap or offer to take it back for free. It did of course hurt those that bought there from Vistana.


----------



## TravelTime

VacationForever said:


> Keeping the 3 (Hyatt, Marriott, Vistana) and many subsets (Sheraton, Westin, Nanea, Aventura) programs separate lets them sell points many times over.



As usual, VacationForever added a strategic point of view with a long term perspective. I agree with VacationForever's assessment. MVC could easily let resale owners enroll for "cheap" for short term gain but that seems like a long term mistake.


----------



## TravelTime

magicjourney said:


> If I were MVC/Vistana executive, I would vote for NO for low fee enrollment based on one fact: what tugbbbs proposes always hurts the company financially. The notorious one: Don't buy direct!!!
> If they need more inventory, they can always pick up from ROFR. Even hybrid package (MVC)/ Retro (Vistana) is better idea than low fee enrollment, IMHO.



I totally agree!


----------



## mjm1

TravelTime said:


> As usual, VacationForever added a strategic point of view with a long term perspective. I agree with VacationForever's assessment. MVC could easily let resale owners enroll for "cheap" for short term gain but that seems like a long term mistake.



Based on how MVC allowed Marriott weeks owners to enroll in the DC program for a small fee ($595 to $1,995 IIRC depending on developer or resale purchase and number of units) in order to get a quick potential inventory of units in the program in as many resorts as possible and to give current owners exposure to the benefits of the DC program, I disagree that it was a short term gain. Many owners enrolled and have bought additional points after using the DC system. The program has been a success and I think they would have a similar view for Vistana owners. The enrollment fee may increase, but the concept would be similar. Time will tell.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## SteelerGal

VacationForever said:


> Marriott's Desert Springs I MF is higher than Westin Desert Springs.


It’s connected to the hotel and can use its amenities.  For many, it’s important.


----------



## SteelerGal

mjm1 said:


> Based on how MVC allowed Marriott weeks owners to enroll in the DC program for a small fee ($595 to $1,995 IIRC depending on developer or resale purchase and number of units) in order to get a quick potential inventory of units in the program in as many resorts as possible and to give current owners exposure to the benefits of the DC program, I disagree that it was a short term gain. Many owners enrolled and have bought additional points after using the DC system. The program has been a success and I think they would have a similar view for Vistana owners. The enrollment fee may increase, but the concept would be similar. Time will tell.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


I agree.  MVC sees the possibilities and will make sure the Flex programs are re marketed to get more ppl to buy into the program.


----------



## TravelTime

mjm1 said:


> Based on how MVC allowed Marriott weeks owners to enroll in the DC program for a small fee ($595 to $1,995 IIRC depending on developer or resale purchase and number of units) in order to get a quick potential inventory of units in the program in as many resorts as possible and to give current owners exposure to the benefits of the DC program, I disagree that it was a short term gain. Many owners enrolled and have bought additional points after using the DC system. The program has been a success and I think they would have a similar view for Vistana owners. The enrollment fee may increase, but the concept would be similar. Time will tell.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike



I would assume if allowing people to enroll legacy weeks for little to nothing was profitable, then they would have allowed post-2010 weeks to be enrolled. I suspect there were legal reasons for allowing pre-2010 owners to enroll at a cheap - almost free - price. If there are legal reasons to do it again, then MVC has no choice. However, if they are doing it to make a short term profit, I think it is not a strategic move. While people think CEOs only care about sales and their own bottom line, and this is often true, they also care about their reputation and their legacy. Remember, these guys and gals already have enough money so then other factors tend to become more important. A huge driver for CEOs and company founders is their legacy. Creating a short term easy gain is not going to create a legacy. In fact, people will dismiss it as easy and that will make the CEO look bad, even if it fills his/her pockets with a short term gain.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> I would assume if allowing people to enroll legacy weeks for little to nothing was profitable, then they would have allowed post-2010 weeks to be enrolled. I suspect there were legal reasons for allowing pre-2010 owners to enroll at a cheap - almost free - price.


I don't think there were legal reasons preventing them from allowing enrollment of post 6/2020 resale weeks. I think it was simply practical in order to protect their developer sold DC points product. Who would pay $10 a point (price in 2010) for DC points when you could buy a cheap resale and get the same thing. Protecting the product is also why they have such a high initiation fee to enroll resale points.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think there were legal reasons preventing them from allowing enrollment of post 6/2020 resale weeks. I think it was simply practical in order to protect their developer sold DC points product. Who would pay $10 a point (price in 2010) for DC points when you could buy a cheap resale and get the same thing. Protecting the product is also why they have such a high initiation fee to enroll resale points.



That is not what I said. I think it could have been the opposite. There might have been legal or liability reasons for allowing pre-2010 weeks to be enrolled cheaply. I suspect they did not allow post-2010 weeks to get enrolled cheaply because it is a bad strategic move.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> That is not what I said. I think it could have been the opposite. There might have been legal or liability reasons for allowing pre-2010 weeks to be enrolled cheaply. I suspect they did not allow post-2010 weeks to get enrolled cheaply because it is a bad strategic move.


Okay, sorry. I read it wrong and thought you said there must have been legal reasons for not allowing post 2010 weeks to enroll. I just woke up, forgive me 

I don't think there were legal reasons behind it at all. With the early DC program, Marriott needed inventory. Now they could have perhaps blocked resale owners from enrolling. I don't think there was anything that could have stopped them. The same legalities that would have stopped them should have also stopped them from charging a lot more to do it. I think it was just the business decision at the time.


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> Okay, sorry. I read it wrong and thought you said there must have been legal reasons for not allowing post 2010 weeks to enroll. I just woke up, forgive me
> 
> I don't think there were legal reasons behind it at all. With the early DC program, Marriott needed inventory. Now they could have perhaps blocked resale owners from enrolling. I don't think there was anything that could have stopped them. The same legalities that would have stopped them should have also stopped them from charging a lot more to do it. I think it was just the business decision at the time.



Okay, then for what MVC needed in 2010 to fund the trust, it made strategic business sense to grandfather in existing owners. My real point is I do not think it is strategic to allow owners to enroll cheaply for a short term financial gain. I think they need a strategic business reason to do so.


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> Okay, then for what MVC needed in 2010 to fund the trust, it made strategic business sense to grandfather in existing owners. My real point is I do not think it is strategic to allow owners to enroll cheaply for a short term financial gain. I think they need a strategic business reason to do so.


If they allowed those post 6/2010 weeks to enroll, then it made them easier to sell developer trust points. I know many resale weeks owners that added points to their ownership. By not allowing them to enroll, it would have disenfranchised them. They may not have been willing to buy points to enroll the weeks, but just selling them new points because they were already part of the program was probably a lot easier.

It also could be that someone bought a resale garden view week and really wanted to stay in ocean front. The sale pitch was that you could simply add 1,000 Vacation Club Point and you can now book an ocean front. We know that it perhaps wasn't possible in practice at the time, but that was the pitch.


----------



## vacationtime1

I agree that it made strategic business sense to grandfather in existing (i.e. pre-6/2010) owners at a modest price.  Marriott gained by populating the DC trust with inventory.

What I didn't understand (even though I benefited from it) was the decision to later lower the price to enroll pre-2010 units.  We enrolled our units about three years ago virtually for free (we had to sit through a sales presentation).  Perhaps Marriott still needed inventory, but it seemed to me that they slighted the owners who paid $595/$1,995 to enroll units.  

I find this discussion fascinating because we are sitting on a couple of prime units (WKORV-OF and WKV plat plus); what will Marriott do to incentivize me to enroll these high value units?


----------



## GregT

TravelTime said:


> I would assume if allowing people to enroll legacy weeks for little to nothing was profitable, then they would have allowed post-2010 weeks to be enrolled. I suspect there were legal reasons for allowing pre-2010 owners to enroll at a cheap - almost free - price. If there are legal reasons to do it again, then MVC has no choice. However, if they are doing it to make a short term profit, I think it is not a strategic move. While people think CEOs only care about sales and their own bottom line, and this is often true, they also care about their reputation and their legacy. Remember, these guys and gals already have enough money so then other factors tend to become more important. A huge driver for CEOs and company founders is their legacy. Creating a short term easy gain is not going to create a legacy. In fact, people will dismiss it as easy and that will make the CEO look bad, even if it fills his/her pockets with a short term gain.



They debated whether or not to allow the existing owners to enroll, but decided to do so for perceived legal protection, and also because they needed that inventory to be available to fill point reservations.  Plus they created an immediate purchaser base because the owners would need more points to be able to effectively utilize the system.  They periodically offer post June 2010 resales to be enrolled with the purchase of points (similar to the requalification of Starwood weeks).

Long term, they need to keep selling points and I believe that Vistana owners are the next group that Marriott views as an attractive target customer.  I'm sure they have studied how many Marriott owners are also Starwood owners and have an understanding of how many genuinely new prospects exist.

We will see if they offer a simple enrollment fee for Vistana weeks, or if it requires a purchase of Marriott Trust Points (or some third option).

Best,

Greg


----------



## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> If they allowed those post 6/2010 weeks to enroll, then it made them easier to sell developer trust points. I know many resale weeks owners that added points to their ownership. By not allowing them to enroll, it would have disenfranchised them. They may not have been willing to buy points to enroll the weeks, but just selling them new points because they were already part of the program was probably a lot easier.
> 
> It also could be that someone bought a resale garden view week and really wanted to stay in ocean front. The sale pitch was that you could simply add 1,000 Vacation Club Point and you can now book an ocean front. We know that it perhaps wasn't possible in practice at the time, but that was the pitch.



It is super expensive to enroll post-2010 weeks. I enrolled two of them for what I thought was a bargain: approx $23,000 including the purchase of the second week. Most of the offers are more expensive than this. Usually at least 3000 points at $11-$12 per point for 1 week.

I think it is more strategic for MVC to keep enrollment of weeks into DPs as expensive as possible.


----------



## GregT

vacationtime1 said:


> I agree that it made strategic business sense to grandfather in existing (i.e. pre-6/2010) owners at a modest price.  Marriott gained by populating the DC trust with inventory.
> 
> What I didn't understand (even though I benefited from it) was the decision to later lower the price to enroll pre-2010 units.  We enrolled our units about three years ago virtually for free (we had to sit through a sales presentation).  Perhaps Marriott still needed inventory, but it seemed to me that they slighted the owners who paid $595/$1,995 to enroll units.
> 
> I find this discussion fascinating because we are sitting on a couple of prime units (WKORV-OF and WKV plat plus); what will Marriott do to incentivize me to enroll these high value units?



I think they lowered the price because it is more potential customers for point sales.

I do think you will find an attractive option to enroll your WKORV weeks because those are the type of weeks that Marriott expects will always be in high demand.   Theoretically, WKORV is already accessible to me with StarOptions, but the reality is that high demand seasons are not.   Marriott wants to structure the overlay in such a way that WKORV is always accessible with Marriott Points no matter the season.  In the Marriott system, even the most highly demanded weeks have availability (right at inventory release) and the overlay needs to continue this for the most highly demanded Westin weeks (that are currently incredibly scarce 8 months out).

If Marriott simply offers an exchange ratio of [2,500] Marriott points for [81,000] StarOptions but leaves the reservation system/method intact, then it won't improve the reservations experience and people won't use it as much.   I think the more successful approach would be to find a way to bring the Vistana week into the Marriott system and give each week a points value, meaning there will be winners and losers.   You will be a winner in that system.    I can't see you exchanging your WKORV week for [5,500] Marriott points, which would be the value if it was based on a fixed Marriott:StarOption conversion ratio like the 2,500/81,000 that I suggested above.  However, if they treat WKORV like Maui Ocean Club, and you are receiving [7,500] Marriott Points for your week, then you may be willing to play in the Marriott system because there is alot you can do with 7,500 points.  But that's too high a ratio to broadly apply to the other StarOptions weeks, which would overweight Vistana owners versus Marriott owners.   We will see and it will be interesting.

Best,

Greg


----------



## CalGalTraveler

With Sheraton Flex enrollment the owner loses mandatory status thus affecting resale value. If Marriott uses that same policy that will be a deal breaker.  If we can enroll and keep mandatory then we would consider.


----------



## mjm1

CalGalTraveler said:


> With Sheraton Flex enrollment the owner loses mandatory status thus affecting resale value. If Marriott uses that same policy that will be a deal breaker.  If we can enroll and keep mandatory then we would consider.



I believe those two issues are mutually exclusive. An owner who enrolls there unit does not have any impact on the status or use of the unit that it current has. The DC program just provides an alternative use and potential benefit.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## CalGalTraveler

mjm1 said:


> I believe those two issues are mutually exclusive. An owner who enrolls there unit does not have any impact on the status or use of the unit that it current has. The DC program just provides an alternative use and potential benefit.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike



That's because Marriott Weeks don't have a mandatory benefit that can be grandfathered to resale buyers. When a buyer purchases a Marriott week resale (even if enrolled by the seller) the buyer cannot trade into the points system without enrolling/paying $. With Vistana mandatory your resale buyer automatically gets the benefit of trading via StarOptions into other Vistana resorts.

The resale value will be impacted if the mandatory designation is removed from the week. That's why enrollment is a deal breaker if Marriott removes it. Marriott hasn't had to honor this type of arrangement before.  The developers hate mandatory and would have removed it long ago but it is somehow deeded into the properties. This is something I would not give up easily. I hope they honor it.


----------



## mjm1

CalGalTraveler said:


> That's because Marriott Weeks don't have a mandatory benefit that can be grandfathered to resale buyers. When you purchase a Marriott week resale you cannot trade into the points system without enrolling/paying $. With Vistana mandatory your resale buyer automatically gets the benefit of trading via StarOptions into other Vistana resorts.  The resale value will be impacted if the mandatory designation is removed from the week. That's why enrollment is a deal breaker if Marriott removes it. Marriott hasn't had to honor this type of arrangement before.  I hope they honor it.



I understand that. I don’t see MVC changing how Vistana works as that would disenfranchise Vistana owners, which is the opposite of benefiting them long term. They bought ILG et al to generate an increase in value not destroy a loyal customer base. Enrolling a unit in the DC program if available would only provide more options/flexibility to Vistana owners.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I hope you are right. However Marriott is a for profit enterprise. I suspect that they will try it because enrollment is optional and Flex does this today.  I wouldn't be surprised if they bury it in the fine print so you don't know you are giving up mandatory property rights.


----------



## TravelTime

I own an EOY WKOVR-N unit. I am also Presidential in MVC.  I would love to enroll my EOY WKOVR-N week at an adorable price. However, I think we would be slightly short of total points to get us to Chairman's Level so I would probably need to buy additional DPs to qualify.

Edit: Adorable Price sounds great LOL but I meant affordable price. Funny how spell check changes words.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

After almost 10 years of promotion, MVC has only been able to get a little more than half (60%) of weeks owners to enroll. This is without a mandatory benefit because they had none.

I bet a high proportion of the weeks in the points trust are low season junk, so I question whether high season, premium properties will be easily available as the inventory may be quite limited. Unlike MVC, with SOs every property is automatically enrolled so you have a chance at the inventory.

For Marriott owners, the only option for trading was to trade week for week via II which is clunky and doesn't allow for stays other than a week long. They had no points system. Vistana already allows shorter stays via SOs.

Vistana will present a higher barrier to adoption for MVC to overcome because SOs will be "good enough" for many people vs. paying more money.

*Here's a summary to compare:*

*MVC enrollment to MVC owners:*

no mandatory to maintain because there is none
only option to trade was by week in II
Trust has limited property enrollment - lots of low season. But keep all weeks rights.
no short stay option
and yet despite these benefits after 10 years they only got 60% enrollment!

*MVC enrollment to Vistana owners:*

mandatory important to resale value (deal breaker); n/a for voluntary owners
Vistana owners already can trade via SOs
Every Vistana property enrolled in SO system for free
Owners already have short stay options via SOs
Owners already have access to some MVC weeks via II and getaways.
Other than access to *some* MVC properties on a short stay basis what do you get?

Given this, MVC may need to offer premium Vistana owners very sweet deals to give up what we've got in order to get premium Vistana properties into the MVC trust. (We are currently in the "good enough" camp for the years we may trade. Mea Culpa they will limit us to Westins and Sheratons via SOs!  Incremental cost? Free + maintain mandatory designation )


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## mjm1

CalGalTraveler said:


> After almost 10 years of promotion, MVC has only been able to get a little more than half (60%) of weeks owners to enroll. This is without a mandatory benefit because they had none.
> 
> I bet a high proportion of the weeks in the points trust are low season junk, so I question whether high season, premium properties will be easily available as the inventory may be quite limited. Unlike MVC, with SOs every property is automatically enrolled so you have a chance at the inventory.
> 
> For Marriott owners, the only option for trading was to trade week for week via II which is clunky and doesn't allow for stays other than a week long. They had no points system. Vistana already allows shorter stays via SOs.
> 
> Vistana will present a higher barrier to adoption for MVC to overcome because SOs will be "good enough" for many people vs. paying more money.
> 
> *Here's a summary to compare:*
> 
> *MVC enrollment to MVC owners:*
> 
> no mandatory to maintain because there is none
> only option to trade was by week in II
> Trust has limited property enrollment - lots of low season. But keep all weeks rights.
> no short stay option
> and yet after 10 years they only got 60% enrollment!
> 
> *MVC enrollment to Vistana owners:*
> 
> mandatory important to resale value (deal breaker); n/a for voluntary owners
> Vistana owners already can trade via SOs
> Every Vistana property enrolled in SO system for free
> Owners already have short stay options via SOs
> Owners already have access to some MVC weeks via II and getaways.
> Other than access to *some* MVC properties on a short stay basis what do you get?
> 
> Given this, MVC may need to offer premium Vistana owners very sweet deals to give up what we've got in order to get premium Vistana properties into the MVC trust. (We are currently in the "good enough" camp for the years we may trade. Mea Culpa they will limit us to Westins and Sheratons via SOs!  Incremental cost? Free + maintain mandatory designation )



I agree with you but want to reiterate that if one enrolls their unit they do NOT “give up” anything. One question would be “if the enrollment fee is reasonable would an owner enroll their Vistana week in order to be able to make an internal exchange into one of the 50+ MVC resorts in a given year?” If that owner sees value in doing that without going through II, which can be unpredictable if not impossible for certain resorts, then enrolling makes sense. I know I would do it just to have more options.

Best regards.

Mike


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## KACTravels

So to clarify, you are saying enrollment DOESN’T effect how you can use your Vistana week now?  But you would have access to all of the Marriott Properties?  What day/month window?  Like at 8 months?


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## dioxide45

KACTravels said:


> So to clarify, you are saying enrollment DOESN’T effect how you can use your Vistana week now?  But you would have access to all of the Marriott Properties?  What day/month window?  Like at 8 months?


If it is enrollment in DC, and you elect your week to DC points in a given year, then you should be able to book at 13/12/10 depending on status and how many days you want to travel. However, once you elect points in that year, you wouldn't be allowed to use StarOptions and would lose home resort privilege anymore until the next year.


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## CalGalTraveler

mjm1 said:


> I agree with you but want to reiterate that if one enrolls their unit they do NOT “give up” anything. One question would be “if the enrollment fee is reasonable would an owner enroll their Vistana week in order to be able to make an internal exchange into one of the 50+ MVC resorts in a given year?” If that owner sees value in doing that without going through II, which can be unpredictable if not impossible for certain resorts, then enrolling makes sense. I know I would do it just to have more options.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike



I agree that nothing was given up for Marriott enrollment.  However Marriott owners never had grandfathered mandatory resale property rights before, so there was nothing to give up.

We will not know whether anything is waived until the final contracts are offered during the enrollment period. At which time I would recommend reading the fine print to make sure there is no waiver of mandatory property rights. I have heard that enrolling in Flex removes those rights. I would approach this very cautiously.


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## KACTravels

By enrolling in Flex, do you mean buying into Flex?  There isn’t an enrollment in Flex- you are buying Flex and Yes, if you “trade in” or upgrade a Mandatory Unit to buy Flex Options, you have bought a product that is Not Mandatory and no longer own a Mandatory Unit.


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## CalGalTraveler

KACTravels said:


> By enrolling in Flex, do you mean buying into Flex?  There isn’t an enrollment in Flex- you are buying Flex and Yes, if you “trade in” or upgrade a Mandatory Unit to buy Flex Options, you have bought a product that is Not Mandatory and no longer own a Mandatory Unit.



Good point. Flex sounds more like trading in a unit to buy Flex points. Akin to trading in a Marriott week for pure DC points.

I sincerely hope that MVC keeps all rights with Vistana enrollment. This will be the fastest way for MVC to integrate Vistana properties into their portfolio. Otherwise, MVC will have an uphill battle and disparate systems for a long long time.


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## tschwa2

My understanding was that MVCI goal was to get 1/3 of all resort weeks during all seasons into the trust through ROFR and buybacks.  They were fairly aggressive with buy backs for almost 2 years and have now settled predominately into selective ROFR plus take backs without compensation.  The MVCI trust is quite robust, it isn't primarily low season weeks.


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## CalGalTraveler

tschwa2 said:


> My understanding was that MVCI goal was to get 1/3 of all resort weeks during all seasons into the trust through ROFR and buybacks.  They were fairly aggressive with buy backs for almost 2 years and have now settled predominately into selective ROFR plus take backs without compensation.  The MVCI trust is quite robust, it isn't primarily low season weeks.



Although this will work over time, it seems that the fastest way for MVC to get prime units into the trust for points use is through aggressive enrollment of weeks owners who own prime properties during peak season.


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## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> Although this will work over time, it seems that the fastest way for MVC to get prime units into the trust for points use is through aggressive enrollment of weeks owners who own prime properties during peak season.


The problem is, with most of the Vistana prime properties, Marriott already has locations there. Perhaps Mexico being the only exception. So they really don't need to get people to enroll to give Marriott owners access to those locations. I don't know many Marriott owners clamoring to go to WKORV. They would probably rather go to the Maui Ocean Club. Of course.

I think another issue will be how Marriott allocates the points. I suspect places like Cancun they may provide a high point allotment to entice those owners to enroll so they can open Mexico up to Marriott owners. But places like Orlando would probably be on par with the allocations at the other Orlando Marriotts and the same would probably be true for Hawaii.

Of course all this speculation is fun, we will just have to wait and see how they implement this in 2020. While June 2020 is a long way off, they may hold this off till then to coincide with the 10 year anniversary and open up enrollment to everyone again (even post 6/2010 resale weeks). Though that may upset many who have paid a lot of money through the promotion and purchase of DC points to enroll their otherwise ineligible weeks.


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## TravelTime

The TUG rumors seem to indicate the Marriott is developing a new overlay and they may keep the existing MVC and Vistana programs separate.

The only reason I would even consider enrolled would be to get to Chairman’s Level, assuming Chairman’s Level is enhanced. The way it is right now, Presidential Level has almost the same perks.


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## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> Although this will work over time, it seems that the fastest way for MVC to get prime units into the trust for points use is through aggressive enrollment of weeks owners who own prime properties during peak season.



As a MVC DP owners with trust points and enrolled weeks, I find the MVC points program have as much inventory as I need. I have not had any problem with it. I like it a lot. I do not like II at all. I use that as a last resort.


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## KACTravels

What are the perks of Presidential Level?  Similar to 5 Star Elite with  Vistana?


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## CalGalTraveler

TravelTime said:


> The rumors seem to indicate the Marriott is developing a new overlay and they may keep the existing MVC and Vistana programs separate.



This makes sense. Why limit upgrade $$$ from just Vistana owners who may want access to Spain, Newport, and Thailand when you can also dip into the MVC upgrade well for cash incenting MVC to Mexico, St. John, plus access to more HI inventory options.


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## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> This makes sense. Why limit upgrade $$$ from just Vistana owners who may want access to Spain, Newport, and Thailand when you can also dip into the MVC upgrade well for cash incenting MVC to Mexico, St. John, plus access to more HI inventory options.



I was just at Marriott Marbella for 5N. While I was super fortunate to get a 2BR with a direct ocean view, overall I did not like the location. The town of Marbella is huge. It took about 30 minutes or so to get to the part of Marbella that I was interested in experiencing. The cab rides were very expensive too. In my trip to Spain, I think I spent more on transportation between cities and within cities than on lodging and food.


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## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> The rumors seem to indicate the Marriott is developing a new overlay and they may keep the existing MVC and Vistana programs separate.


What is the source for these rumors?

I would actually prefer a second overlay that may better protect home resort and StarOption usage for Vistana. I don't want the weeks/StarOption benefits to become devalued with people being able to book it with DC points at 12/10 months when StarOptions users have to wait until 8. Perhaps a 7/6 month booking window would be best between the two systems.


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## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> What is the source for these rumors?
> 
> I would actually prefer a second overlay that may better protect home resort and StarOption usage for Vistana. I don't want the weeks/StarOption benefits to become devalued with people being able to book it with DC points at 12/10 months when StarOptions users have to wait until 8. Perhaps a 7/6 month booking window would be best between the two systems.



The rumors are TUG speculation, as usual. I corrected my post to indicate they are TUG rumors so they may or may not be true.

Frankly if I were the MVC head, I would think a new overlay that both MVC owners and Vistana owners need to buy into would be the best. I might buy into it if there were some nice advantages over what I have today.


----------



## DannyTS

GregT said:


> I think they lowered the price because it is more potential customers for point sales.
> 
> I do think you will find an attractive option to enroll your WKORV weeks because those are the type of weeks that Marriott expects will always be in high demand.   Theoretically, WKORV is already accessible to me with StarOptions, but the reality is that high demand seasons are not.   Marriott wants to structure the overlay in such a way that WKORV is always accessible with Marriott Points no matter the season.  In the Marriott system, even the most highly demanded weeks have availability (right at inventory release) and the overlay needs to continue this for the most highly demanded Westin weeks (that are currently incredibly scarce 8 months out).
> 
> If Marriott simply offers an exchange ratio of [2,500] Marriott points for [81,000] StarOptions but leaves the reservation system/method intact, then it won't improve the reservations experience and people won't use it as much.   I think the more successful approach would be to find a way to bring the Vistana week into the Marriott system and give each week a points value, meaning there will be winners and losers.   You will be a winner in that system.    I can't see you exchanging your WKORV week for [5,500] Marriott points, which would be the value if it was based on a fixed Marriott:StarOption conversion ratio like the 2,500/81,000 that I suggested above.  However, if they treat WKORV like Maui Ocean Club, and you are receiving [7,500] Marriott Points for your week, then you may be willing to play in the Marriott system because there is alot you can do with 7,500 points.  But that's too high a ratio to broadly apply to the other StarOptions weeks, which would overweight Vistana owners versus Marriott owners.   We will see and it will be interesting.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


The Hawaiian Vistana resorts will pose a particular problem because they only have one season.  A 2 bedroom at Ko'olina for example can be as little as 4500 and as high as 8250 points depending on the view and the week. If they give 7500 points to all VKORV 2 bedroom owners, the Westin owners will end up way "richer" than the Marriott owners in terms of aggregate number of points


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## JIMinNC

DannyTS said:


> The Hawaiian Vistana resorts will pose a particular problem because they only have one season.  A 2 bedroom at Ko'olina for example can be as little as 4500 and as high as 8250 points depending on the view and the week. If they give 7500 points to all VKORV 2 bedroom owners, the Westin owners will end up way "richer" than the Marriott owners in terms of aggregate number of points



I think you may be confusing Marriott's DC Point booking structure with their point assignment structure. Two very different things.

You used a KoOlina example, but a better comparative example would be the Lahaina/Napili Towers at Maui Ocean Club, which is right up the beach from WKORV. In Hawaii, ALL Marriott 2BR units of the same view category receive the same DC Point allocation. For the Lahaina/Napili Towers, it looks like this:

Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Villas
2BR Island View -- 4725
2BR Mtn/Gdn View -- 5500
2BR Ocean View -- 6625
2BR Ocean Front -- 7475

So, those are the point values that an owner gets whenever they choose to convert their owned week to DC Points. All Marriott Hawaii floating weeks only have one season as well - Platinum (I'm not counting fixed holiday weeks like week 51/52). So, Marriott could do the same with WKORV weeks. I'm not an expert on the unit/view categories there, but just looking at a old StarOptions chart I got from somewhere, they *theoretically* could design something like this:

Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas
2BR Lockoff Ocean Front -- 7475
2BR Lockoff -- 5500

Those would be the points a WKORV owner would get if they elected to convert to DC Points instead of using their home week or using StarOptions. It would work the same way it works today for an enrolled Marriott Maui Ocean Club owner.

Where there *IS* a difference by season is in the number of DC Points it takes to *book* Maui Ocean Club (and other Hawaii resorts). With advent of the point system, Marriott built a two-season point *booking* structure for Hawaii resorts. Lets call them High Season/Shoulder Season (my words). For those same 2BR Lahaina/Napili Villas units at Maui Ocean Club that I used above, here is what it takes for a DC Points user to actually book those weeks:

Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Villas
2BR Island View -- 4700 Shoulder Season/5450 High Season
2BR Mtn/Gdn View -- 5500 Shoulder Season/6425 High Season
2BR Ocean View -- 6650 Shoulder Season/7625 High Season
2BR Ocean Front -- 7450 Shoulder Season/ 8650 High Season

As you can see, it's two different schedules. The difference between the point assignment and the booking cost is what Marriott owners call "skim". It was a point of some controversy when the DC Points system was first launched. At most Marriott resorts, it *always* costs more points to actually book something than what owners of that same ownership get for their week. Hawaii is a small exception in that the skim is only meaningful for the "High Season" bookings. This was created because they elected to take a single-season Hawaii Legacy Weeks system and overlay a two-season Hawaii points system on top of it.

So, Marriott week owners whose owned week(s) are enrolled in the DC Points system can choose, for any given usage year, to do one of the following:

1. Use their owned week
2. Deposit their owned week into Interval International
3. Elect for their DC Points allocation and then spend those points on bookings in the Marriott system

*IF *they eventually opt to follow a similar model for Vistana owners, then a Vistana owner *might *have the following options:

1. Use their owned week
2. Deposit their owned week into Interval International
3. Use their assigned StarOptions to book other StarOptions resorts
4. Elect for their DC Points allocation and then spend those points on bookings in the Marriott system


----------



## dioxide45

TravelTime said:


> The rumors are TUG speculation, as usual. I corrected my post to indicate they are TUG rumors so they may or may not be true.


Then I am not sure that the rumor is that Marriott is developing a separate overlay program. There are many speculations here about what could concoct with regard to how the new program could work. A separate overlay is only one of many.


----------



## DannyTS

JIMinNC said:


> I think you may be confusing Marriott's DC Point booking structure with their point assignment structure. Two very different things.
> 
> You used a KoOlina example, but a better comparative example would be the Lahaina/Napili Towers at Maui Ocean Club, which is right up the beach from WKORV. In Hawaii, ALL Marriott 2BR units of the same view category receive the same DC Point allocation. For the Lahaina/Napili Towers, it looks like this:
> 
> Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Villas
> 2BR Island View -- 4725
> 2BR Mtn/Gdn View -- 5500
> 2BR Ocean View -- 6625
> 2BR Ocean Front -- 7475
> 
> So, those are the point values that an owner gets whenever they choose to convert their owned week to DC Points. All Marriott Hawaii floating weeks only have one season as well - Platinum (I'm not counting fixed holiday weeks like week 51/52). So, Marriott could do the same with WKORV weeks. I'm not an expert on the unit/view categories there, but just looking at a old StarOptions chart I got from somewhere, they *theoretically* could design something like this:
> 
> Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas
> 2BR Lockoff Ocean Front -- 7475
> 2BR Lockoff -- 5500
> 
> Those would be the points a WKORV owner would get if they elected to convert to DC Points instead of using their home week or using StarOptions. It would work the same way it works today for an enrolled Marriott Maui Ocean Club owner.
> 
> Where there *IS* a difference by season is in the number of DC Points it takes to *book* Maui Ocean Club (and other Hawaii resorts). With advent of the point system, Marriott built a two-season point *booking* structure. Lets call them High Season/Shoulder Season (my words). For those same 2BR Lahaina/Napili Villas units at Maui Ocean Club that I used above, here is what it takes for a DC Points user to actually book those weeks:
> 
> Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Villas
> 2BR Island View -- 4700 Shoulder Season/5450 High Season
> 2BR Mtn/Gdn View -- 5500 Shoulder Season/6425 High Season
> 2BR Ocean View -- 6650 Shoulder Season/7625 High Season
> 2BR Ocean Front -- 7450 Shoulder Season/ 8650 High Season
> 
> As you can see, it's two different schedules. The difference between the point assignment and the booking cost is what Marriott owners call "skim". It was a point of some controversy when the DC Points system was first launched. At most Marriott resorts, it *always* costs more points to actually book something than what owners of that same ownership get for their week. Hawaii is a small exception in that the skim is only meaningful for the "High Season" bookings. This was created because they elected to take a single-season Legacy Weeks system and overlay a two-season points system on top of it.
> 
> So, Marriott week owners whose owned week(s) are enrolled in the DC Points system can choose, for any given usage year, to do one of the following:
> 
> 1. Use their owned week
> 2. Deposit their owned week into Interval International
> 3. Elect for their DC Points allocation and then spend those points on bookings in the Marriott system
> 
> *IF *they eventually opt to follow a similar model for Vistana owners, then a Vistana owner *might *have the following options:
> 
> 1. Use their owned week
> 2. Deposit their owned week into Interval International
> 3. Use their assigned StarOptions to book other StarOptions resorts
> 4. Elect for their DC Points allocation and then spend those points on bookings in the Marriott system



thank you for clarifying this for me and others


----------



## CalGalTraveler

JIMinNC said:


> I think you may be confusing Marriott's DC Point booking structure with their point assignment structure. Two very different things.
> 
> You used a KoOlina example, but a better comparative example would be the Lahaina/Napili Towers at Maui Ocean Club, which is right up the beach from WKORV. In Hawaii, ALL Marriott 2BR units of the same view category receive the same DC Point allocation. For the Lahaina/Napili Towers, it looks like this:
> 
> Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Villas
> 2BR Island View -- 4725
> 2BR Mtn/Gdn View -- 5500
> 2BR Ocean View -- 6625
> 2BR Ocean Front -- 7475
> 
> So, those are the point values that an owner gets whenever they choose to convert their owned week to DC Points. All Marriott Hawaii floating weeks only have one season as well - Platinum (I'm not counting fixed holiday weeks like week 51/52). So, Marriott could do the same with WKORV weeks. I'm not an expert on the unit/view categories there, but just looking at a old StarOptions chart I got from somewhere, they *theoretically* could design something like this:
> 
> Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas
> 2BR Lockoff Ocean Front -- 7475
> 2BR Lockoff -- 5500
> 
> Those would be the points a WKORV owner would get if they elected to convert to DC Points instead of using their home week or using StarOptions. It would work the same way it works today for an enrolled Marriott Maui Ocean Club owner.
> 
> Where there *IS* a difference by season is in the number of DC Points it takes to *book* Maui Ocean Club (and other Hawaii resorts). With advent of the point system, Marriott built a two-season point *booking* structure. Lets call them High Season/Shoulder Season (my words). For those same 2BR Lahaina/Napili Villas units at Maui Ocean Club that I used above, here is what it takes for a DC Points user to actually book those weeks:
> 
> Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Villas
> 2BR Island View -- 4700 Shoulder Season/5450 High Season
> 2BR Mtn/Gdn View -- 5500 Shoulder Season/6425 High Season
> 2BR Ocean View -- 6650 Shoulder Season/7625 High Season
> 2BR Ocean Front -- 7450 Shoulder Season/ 8650 High Season
> 
> As you can see, it's two different schedules. The difference between the point assignment and the booking cost is what Marriott owners call "skim". It was a point of some controversy when the DC Points system was first launched. At most Marriott resorts, it *always* costs more points to actually book something than what owners of that same ownership get for their week. Hawaii is a small exception in that the skim is only meaningful for the "High Season" bookings. This was created because they elected to take a single-season Legacy Weeks system and overlay a two-season points system on top of it.
> 
> So, Marriott week owners whose owned week(s) are enrolled in the DC Points system can choose, for any given usage year, to do one of the following:
> 
> 1. Use their owned week
> 2. Deposit their owned week into Interval International
> 3. Elect for their DC Points allocation and then spend those points on bookings in the Marriott system
> 
> *IF *they eventually opt to follow a similar model for Vistana owners, then a Vistana owner *might *have the following options:
> 
> 1. Use their owned week
> 2. Deposit their owned week into Interval International
> 3. Use their assigned StarOptions to book other StarOptions resorts
> 4. Elect for their DC Points allocation and then spend those points on bookings in the Marriott system



Thanks for explaining that. Two questions:

1) If you own an EOY, I assume that you would get the DC points EOY. Do they have to be used in the same year or can you borrow or bank to another year?

2) We own WKORVN - OF. In addition to our own resort, skim makes it so that we wouldn't be able to book high season at MOC or other MVC top resort because our points would be less than what's needed? It would only work with shorter stays or shoulder season?


----------



## vacationtime1

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for explaining that. Two questions:
> 
> 1) If you own an EOY, I assume that you would get the DC points EOY. Do they have to be used in the same year or can you borrow or bank to another year?
> 
> 2) We own WKORVN - OF. In addition to our own resort, skim makes it so that we wouldn't be able to book high season at MOC or other MVC top resort because our points would be less than what's needed? It would only work with shorter stays or shoulder season?



1.  You can bank DC points; the time period during which you must use them depends on your status level (12-24 months).

2.  The number of points one gets for electing points on an enrolled unit is slightly more than needed to book the lowest cost week during your season.  So IF they set 2bd MOC-OF (new towers) = 2 bd WKORV-OF, an owner of either could book the other during the lowest points weeks (January, May, etc.) -- depending on availability.  Of course, during years one does not elect points, one can book any week in the owned season at the home resort.


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## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for explaining that. Two questions:
> 
> 1) If you own an EOY, I assume that you would get the DC points EOY. Do they have to be used in the same year or can you borrow or bank to another year?
> 
> 2) We own WKORVN - OF. In addition to our own resort, skim makes it so that we wouldn't be able to book high season at MOC or other MVC top resort because our points would be less than what's needed? It would only work with shorter stays or shoulder season?



1) Yes. Ask vacationtime1 said, with an EOY ownership, you would only get DC points EOY, but you can bank/borrow some or all into another year.

2) If things played out like my example (obviously, that's just speculation, so no idea what will really happen), and your WKORVN-OF got 7475 assigned DC Points like the MOC new towers do, you are correct that it would *not* be enough to book high season OF at MOC Lahaina/Napili Villas (takes 8650 points). But with 7475 DC points at your disposal, you could book almost everywhere else in almost any season/view with no problem (and in many cases, with significant points left over). For example, here are some high season points costs for the top view category at a few other top MVC 2BR locations:

Hilton Head Grande Ocean (OF): 5400
Myrtle Beach Oceanwatch (OF): 4675
Marco Island Crystal Shores (Gulf Front): 7350
Orlando Grande Vista: 3175
Orlando Lakeshore Reserve: 4175
Palm Beach Ocean Pointe/Oceana Palms: 5900
Newport Coast Villas: 4725
Lake Tahoe Timber Lodge: 5000
Las Vegas Grande Chateau: 3675
Park City Mountainside: 6900
Hawaii Big Island Waikoloa (OF): 7125
Hawaii Maui Ocean Club - Original Towers (OF): 7450
Hawaii Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Villas (OF): 8650
Hawaii Kauai Beach Club: 5900
Hawaii Kauai Lagoons: 7050
Hawaii Kauai Waiohai (OV): 5875
Hawaii Oahu Ko'olina (OV Penthouse): 6875
Aruba Ocean Club/Surf Club (OF): 5900
St. Kitts Beach Club (OS): 4525
St. Thomas Frenchman's Cove: 5675
Gold Coast Australia Surfers Paradise: 6600
Ritz Carlton Club- Lake Tahoe: 6875
Ritz Carlton Club San Francisco: 6875
Ritz Carlton Club Aspen: 7725
Ritz Carlton Club Vail: 7950
Ritz Carlton Club St Thomas: 5675

At some of these resorts, there are some holiday weeks - July 4, Presidents Day, Christmas/New Years - that require higher points than what is shown above. But other than holiday weeks, the above numbers are for the top view 2BR in high season.

As you can see from the above list, if your WKORVN-OF got the same DC Point allocation as a MOC Lahaina/Napili, even with the MVC skim, you would have enough points to book anything in the MVC system except MOC Lahaina/Napili High Season and High Season at the Ritz resorts in Aspen and Vail. You would also be short at some of the other places for certain holiday weeks. But other than these exceptions, OF in Hawaii is pretty much top of the food chain in the Marriott DC system. IF they do offer a DC option for WKORV and WKORVN, I would expect those owners to fare very, very well.


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## jjking42

I never enrolled in my MVC week in points and got out of the Marriott system because of the skim. I am a points guy and owned both Wyndham and HGVC at the time. The skim felt dishonest to me. I would consider enrolling a Vistana week in the MVC points program if it was cheap but I would never give up star options to due it. I would only use it if I thought it would be better value than exchanging with II.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

If you have leftover enrollment points can you rent more points? Conversely can you rent out your extra enrollment points?


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> If you have leftover enrollment points can you rent more points? Conversely can you rent out your extra enrollment points?



Yes. MVC Legacy week (enrolled) points can be rented just like MVC Trust points. Right now the going rate appears to be in the $0.60 to $0.65 per point range.


----------



## GregT

CalGalTraveler said:


> If you have leftover enrollment points can you rent more points? Conversely can you rent out your extra enrollment points?


Hello CalGal,

I believe you are referring to your Elected points (the points you get when you deposit your week with Marriott for that usage year), and yes those can be rented out, and you can also rent other owner's Elected points.

I only say this because the original post mentioned enrollment points, and sometimes Marriott has offered bonus points when people enroll their weeks.  Those bonus points received at enrollment can not be transferred to another party.  I got 800 bonus points when I enrolled my week and I don't remember doing anything with them.

The ability to transfer points is very powerful and is perhaps my favorite thing about the Marriott system.   

Best,

Greg


----------



## 4Sunsets

CalGalTraveler said:


> After almost 10 years of promotion, MVC has only been able to get a little more than half (60%) of weeks owners to enroll. This is without a mandatory benefit because they had none.
> 
> I bet a high proportion of the weeks in the points trust are low season junk, so I question whether high season, premium properties will be easily available as the inventory may be quite limited. Unlike MVC, with SOs every property is automatically enrolled so you have a chance at the inventory.
> 
> For Marriott owners, the only option for trading was to trade week for week via II which is clunky and doesn't allow for stays other than a week long. They had no points system. Vistana already allows shorter stays via SOs.
> 
> Vistana will present a higher barrier to adoption for MVC to overcome because SOs will be "good enough" for many people vs. paying more money.
> 
> *Here's a summary to compare:*
> 
> *MVC enrollment to MVC owners:*
> 
> no mandatory to maintain because there is none
> only option to trade was by week in II
> Trust has limited property enrollment - lots of low season. But keep all weeks rights.
> no short stay option
> and yet despite these benefits after 10 years they only got 60% enrollment!
> 
> *MVC enrollment to Vistana owners:*
> 
> mandatory important to resale value (deal breaker); n/a for voluntary owners
> Vistana owners already can trade via SOs
> Every Vistana property enrolled in SO system for free
> Owners already have short stay options via SOs
> Owners already have access to some MVC weeks via II and getaways.
> Other than access to *some* MVC properties on a short stay basis what do you get?
> 
> Given this, MVC may need to offer premium Vistana owners very sweet deals to give up what we've got in order to get premium Vistana properties into the MVC trust. (We are currently in the "good enough" camp for the years we may trade. Mea Culpa they will limit us to Westins and Sheratons via SOs!  Incremental cost? Free + maintain mandatory designation )




Honestly, IMHO there are very few Vistana properties that are Marriott caliber. Not a big fan of Marriott right now because of MF. However, Vistana? Not much there outside of the Hawaii locations. 

Vistana owners are getting a great deal if they can get into Marriott's system. Marriott owners are NOT getting a good deal by the integration of Vistana properties. Marriott should have sold the weeds off.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I sincerely hope most Marriott owners feel this way. We'll keep the weeds such as St. John, Bahamas, Lagunamar, and the ski week reservations all to ourselves.


----------



## DannyTS

CalGalTraveler said:


> I sincerely hope most Marriott owners feel this way. We'll keep the weeds such as St. John, Bahamas, Lagunamar, and the ski week reservations all to ourselves.


You were a bit faster than me in responding 
I have browsed the MVC owners FB forums, and i have bad news :most Marriott owners, especially those that live on the East coast can't wait to book the Vistana resorts in the locations you mentioned and not only.
Let's be honest, some owners on both sides will complain regardless of how the new program (speculation alert!) will be rolled out, it is human nature. Let's just hope it will make _most_ owners happy.


----------



## jjking42

Somebody start a poll. I vote keep them completely separate.
That just means more exchange fees for II. I would be in favor of a shared  internal II preference.


----------



## DannyTS

i would really like a fully integrated system where existing  programs keep the current benefits. I would not mind the Vistana home priority  to be changed from 12-8 months to 13-9 or even 12-9 to match the MVC bookings, 9-7 months exclusive Staroptions reservations and  cross reservations MVC-Vistana starting right after that (say 7 months)

If nothing happens though (or if the MVC proposal is not attractive to us)  I am happy to continue to use what we own.


----------



## mjm1

CalGalTraveler said:


> I sincerely hope most Marriott owners feel this way. We'll keep the weeds such as St. John, Bahamas, Lagunamar, and the ski week reservations all to ourselves.



We own both Marriott and Vistana and agree that St John, Harborside at Atlantis and Lagunamar are all outstanding resorts and locations. We have enjoyed each one and look forward to return visits. I know there are other great Vistana resorts including Kierland Villas where we own. 

Everyone has their preferences and favorites in each system. I think some sort of combination (overlay) would be a huge win for anyone who takes advantage of it.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## 4Sunsets

CalGalTraveler said:


> I sincerely hope most Marriott owners feel this way. We'll keep the weeds such as St. John, Bahamas, Lagunamar, and the ski week reservations all to ourselves.



St John and Bahamas we've been to. Fairly nice, but people are trying like crazy to sell out of there for pocket change. Some have been listed for a few $$$, and not sold. Marriott already has plenty of ski destinations in all price / cost ranges and doesn't really need any more.

Point is none of these non-Hawaii Vistanas are doing Marriott owners any favors, except extreme dilution of value.


----------



## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> St John and Bahamas we've been to. Fairly nice, but people are trying like crazy to sell out of there for pocket change. Some have been listed for a few $$$, and not sold. Marriott already has plenty of ski destinations in all price / cost ranges and doesn't really need any more.
> 
> Point is none of these non-Hawaii Vistanas are doing Marriott owners any favors, except extreme dilution of value.



Poor MVC CEO, it looks like he did not do his homework before buying ILG! Too late now to fix that but at least he can reach out to you for advise on how to improve the Westin "weeds"


----------



## GregT

mjm1 said:


> We own both Marriott and Vistana and agree that St John, Harborside at Atlantis and Lagunamar are all outstanding resorts and locations. We have enjoyed each one and look forward to return visits. I know there are other great Vistana resorts including Kierland Villas where we own.
> 
> Everyone has their preferences and favorites in each system. I think some sort of combination (overlay) would be a huge win for anyone who takes advantage of it.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike



I agree with Mike here.  We own both Vistana and Marriott and I've had very enjoyable visits to Harborside, Lagunamar, Westin Kaanapali and Westin Princeville.   I've visited (but not stayed) at Westin St. John and I look forward to return visits to all of these properties.   I'm going to SDO next year for Spring Training.

I don't follow the weeds comment -- no CEO worth her/his salt is going to sell off (newly-acquired) properties but will instead find a way to leverage all assets across a now broader ownership base.  There is a role for every one of these properties in the new enterprise.  There's renovations to be done (to be paid for by us), upgrade programs to be rolled out (to be sold to us), new locations for each legacy ownership, and formidable competitors (Wyndham and HGVC) that are continuing to expand.

Wall Street doesn't want to hear that Marriott is contracting.  They want growth, expansion, creativity and that's what Marriott is giving them.   I think this was a smart move by Marriott and I'm very curious to see what kind of overlay they introduce -- both initially, and as it evolves over time.

Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


----------



## 4Sunsets

DannyTS said:


> Poor MVC CEO, it looks like he did not do his homework before buying ILG! Too late now to fix that but at least he can reach out to you for advise on how to improve the Westin "weeds"



It's a tad presumptuous.... Dan. Considering the way the posts were going about how Marriott must pay a premium to woe Vistana owners, and such. Just added my thoughts about how badly the whole thing diluted the value of Marriott ownership and a definitive "no" on the idea that Marriott needed to pay some sort of premium.

I'm not particularly enamored with any of the Vistana properties. Westin/Sheraton VC kind of got lost for a few years in the Vistana buy then sell to Marriott and there's a lot of money going to be tied up with work that needs to be caught up. But what would I know I've only stayed in all of them multiple times (Hawaii/Carib).


----------



## JIMinNC

I think there is some validity to both perspectives being offered here. I do agree that if they do come up with some sort of overlay/exchange system between legacy Vistana and legacy Marriott, that the Vistana owners stand to gain/benefit more than do Marriott owners. For all practical purposes, the only new destinations for Marriott owners are the Mexico resorts, the Bahamas, and St John, whereas Vistana owners add many more new potential destinations. Yes, we MVC owners would pick up new options in Hawaii and several other markets, but not really new destinations.

But I don't really see the perspective that the acquisition diluted Marriott ownership, or that it was a bad decision by Steve Weiss and the MVW team. The Vistana network's sales results have lagged those of MVC and I think the team at Marriott can implement some of their processes to improve sales performance at the legacy Vistana sales locations and turn that ship around. At least Wall Street will be expecting them to do that.

But I think at least part of the reason for the acquisition was defensive on the part of Marriott Vacations Worldwide - to ensure that the Westin/Sheraton timeshare brands stayed under the Marriott umbrella. ILG shareholder Front Four Capital had made no secret of their desire to have someone buy ILG. Since Marriott International had acquired the former Starwood hotel brands and was in the process of combining them into a consolidated reservation/branding/loyalty program, it just made sense that the timeshare brands of legacy Marriott and legacy Starwood should find themselves under common ownership as well.


----------



## 4Sunsets

GregT said:


> I don't follow the weeds comment -- no CEO worth her/his salt is going to sell off (newly-acquired) properties but will instead find a way to leverage all assets across a now broader ownership base.  There is a role for every one of these properties in the new enterprise.  There's renovations to be done (to be paid for by us), upgrade programs to be rolled out (to be sold to us), new locations for each legacy ownership, and formidable competitors (Wyndham and HGVC) that are continuing to expand.
> 
> Wall Street doesn't want to hear that Marriott is contracting.  They want growth, expansion, creativity and that's what Marriott is giving them.   I think this was a smart move by Marriott and I'm very curious to see what kind of overlay they introduce -- both initially, and as it evolves over time.
> 
> Interesting stuff.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



CEOs are perfectly fallible. They steer their companies into the ground all the time. On the hotel side, I agree, the merger was about growth and market dominance. However, the timeshare properties were more or less orphaned for Vistana to pick up on the cheap.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Every TS system has great properties and properties that lag and need renovation. I just read about an MVC in Colorado in the Marriott forum that someone declared "is stuck in the 1980's!"

Don't confuse resale value with the quality of the property. Harborside and St. John have high MF and St. John is recovering from a hurricane so some owners want out as they may be attempting to avoid assessments. This is driving down prices. With an overlay, MVC owners should be delighted that they can pay a lower MVC maint fee and trade into these properties without hurricane assessments.

Although MVC has more locations, IMO many MVC properties are in locations that we would never want to visit (e.g. New Jersey, Fl coast, Myrtle Beach), or have HGVC or Vistana alternatives in the same location.


----------



## GregT

4Sunsets said:


> CEOs are perfectly fallible. They steer their companies into the ground all the time. On the hotel side, I agree, the merger was about growth and market dominance. However, the timeshare properties were more or less orphaned for Vistana to pick up on the cheap.



I'm very sorry, but your comments are very general (and negative) and I don't believe reflect the complexity of this transaction and the benefit that it will bring to Marriott -- and to Marriott owners. 

Companies need to grow, to have more stable revenues, to broaden their product offerings to their customers and to beat formidable competitors.   Marriott accomplished many of these with this transaction.   I'm not saying it's a good stock purchase (I don't know that it is) but this created a healthier organization with a formidable position in the market.     You are welcome to pick on certain properties that you think aren't up to snuff from a guest perspective, but I would encourage you to view it from the CEOs perspective (or from the investor's perspective).   If you want to sell undeveloped land because it's no longer strategic, fine.   If you want to close an unprofitable housekeeping vertical, go for it.   But the executive team is focused on maximizing all the assets that have acquired (including that undeveloped land and that housekeeping division) and making the entire organization more profitable and effective.

And I think all timeshare companies have done a good job of converting their business model to be "asset-light" and to transfer the development risk to third parties that want that risk.    The hotel businesses were caught by owning capital-intensive timeshare business at a time when the world collapsed and spinning off their timeshare arms was necessary.   Now those timeshare companies have been more nimble and find third parties to fund that development, with the timeshare company simply managing properties.   Marriott isn't going to divest of its developed properties easily or on a whim, and on the contrary, is likely scouring the planet for suitable new projects and getting a third party to finance the development or conversion.  It's interesting to follow.

Best,

Greg


----------



## lorenmd

4Sunsets said:


> CEOs are perfectly fallible. They steer their companies into the ground all the time. On the hotel side, I agree, the merger was about growth and market dominance. However, the timeshare properties were more or less orphaned for Vistana to pick up on the cheap.


why are you only a guest and not a member?


----------



## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> CEOs are perfectly fallible. They steer their companies into the ground all the time. On the hotel side, I agree, the merger was about growth and market dominance. However, the timeshare properties were more or less orphaned for Vistana to pick up on the cheap.


For the developer, the more the merrier. Through repossessions and ROFRs they are able to acquire  a healthy amount of deeds virtually for free, turn around and sell them at a very hefty profit. I think i read somewhere repossessions alone are around 2% of the inventory per year! Think about it, 2% of 150 resorts is the equivalent of  3 resorts virtually for free every year! If you _were _in this business, would you want less or more resorts?


----------



## 4Sunsets

lorenmd said:


> why are you only a guest and not a member?



Um, I'm a member, not a guest.


----------



## 4Sunsets

GregT said:


> I'm very sorry, but your comments are very general (and negative) and I don't believe reflect the complexity of this transaction and the benefit that it will bring to Marriott -- and to Marriott owners.



Don't believe the transaction has much, if any, benefit to MVC owners, though lots of benefit to Vistana owners who were stuck in limbo with a company that bought the timeshares so they would be an attractive purchase (that made them a lot of money that they subsequently walked away with).


----------



## sparty

dioxide45 said:


> While June 2020 is a long way off, they may hold this off till then to coincide with the 10 year anniversary and open up enrollment to everyone again (even post 6/2010 resale weeks). Though that may upset many who have paid a lot of money through the promotion and purchase of DC points to enroll their otherwise ineligible weeks.



Dioxide - funny this is exactly what I was thinking too.. Coincide VSE with the 10 year  Marriott ex-enrollment date .   I'm sure Marriott is considering it too.


----------



## dioxide45

4Sunsets said:


> Um, I'm a member, not a guest.


Then you should follow the steps in this post;

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...g-the-bbs-member-code-in-your-bbs-profile.53/


----------



## dioxide45

lorenmd said:


> why are you only a guest and not a member?


I am not really sure how this is relevant to this discussion or any discussion. People who are not TUG members are just as welcome to post here as anyone else?

It should also be noted that many people here with the "TUG Member" moniker may not currently be members. You only need to have neen a member at one time in order to have that little plaque below your user id. Even if your membership lapses, that plaque stays.


----------



## bobpark56

mjm1 said:


> I just saw this comment from the CEO included in the VAC quarterly update:
> 
> “Looking ahead to 2020, we have begun focusing on product enhancements for the various brands. Specifically, we are working hard to develop an integrated product form that can be leveraged across the Marriott Western and Sheridan brands enhancing the overall value proposition for our owners and customers. It will take time to finalize and roll out this new product for. However, we are very excited about the potential it will provide and we look forward to updating you in the future as this work evolves.”
> 
> So, a program is in the works. Of course no details are available at this time, so we will have to wait until some time in 2020.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


The guy said "Sheridan." Sounds like he does not know what he is talking about.


----------



## dioxide45

bobpark56 said:


> The guy said "Sheridan." Sounds like he does not know what he is talking about.


Someone mentioned earlier, it was probably an error made by an offshore transcriptionist. It seems that this was copy and pasted from seekingalpha.com. They also spelled Westin as Western. The actual transcript on the VAC website doesn't have this error.


----------



## bobpark56

CalGalTraveler said:


> Every TS system has great properties and properties that lag and need renovation. I just read about an MVC in Colorado in the Marriott forum that someone declared "is stuck in the 1980's!"
> 
> Don't confuse resale value with the quality of the property. Harborside and St. John have high MF and St. John is recovering from a hurricane so some owners want out as they may be attempting to avoid assessments. This is driving down prices. With an overlay, MVC owners should be delighted that they can pay a lower MVC maint fee and trade into these properties without hurricane assessments.
> 
> Although MVC has more locations, IMO many MVC properties are in locations that we would never want to visit (e.g. New Jersey, Fl coast, Myrtle Beach), or have HGVC or Vistana alternatives in the same location.


"Avoid assessments?" "St. John? I guess you don't know that we in the Virgin Grand HOA were adequately insured, and I think that was true for the other HOAs as well. Not only are we not foreseeing assessments, but Vistana gave us our StarOptions back for missed stays during the post-hurricane maintenance. From what i have seen posted. Marriott owners at St Thomas were not treated as well.


----------



## SteelerGal

It will be interesting to look back in 5yrs to see how Marriott incorporated Westin/Sheraton as well as Hyatt.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

bobpark56 said:


> "Avoid assessments?" "St. John? I guess you don't know that we in the Virgin Grand HOA were adequately insured, and I think that was true for the other HOAs as well. Not only are we not foreseeing assessments, but Vistana gave us our StarOptions back for missed stays during the post-hurricane maintenance. From what i have seen posted. Marriott owners at St Thomas were not treated as well.



I am glad that worked out for the HOA. Sounds like having insurance saved the day and Vistana did right by its owners. My reference was speculation as to why prices have dropped. Perhaps its perception about an assessment? Can you provide other reasons for prices dropping?

P.S. Although we haven't stayed at either TS resort, I love the island of St John and would take it over St. Thomas any day. I hope to go back to visit.


----------



## dioxide45

CalGalTraveler said:


> I am glad that worked out for the HOA. Sounds like having insurance saved the day and Vistana did right by its owners. My reference was speculation as to why prices have dropped. Perhaps its perception about an assessment? Can you provide other reasons for prices dropping?
> 
> P.S. Although we haven't stayed at either TS resort, I love the island of St John and would take it over St. Thomas any day. I hope to go back to visit.


Prices have dropped because MFs are astronomical. Low season weeks are the ones hit the most, they pay the same MF for a lower value time of the year.


----------



## GregT

4Sunsets said:


> Don't believe the transaction has much, if any, benefit to MVC owners.....



I believe the transaction benefits all MVC owners, simply because Marriott is now a more stable, healthier organization, and we need MVC to succeed. 

- Stable recurring revenues (from exchange fees, rental of II inventory, and membership fees) help to reduce the dependence on asset sales.

- however because asset sales are the juice for MVC, there are now hundreds of thousands of new potential purchasers of points for Marriott.  That can sustain MVC for the next 5-7 years as they work through Vistana owners.   HGVC next.

I believe this transaction benefits all MVC owners because it opens up new travel destinations.

- Nassau
- St. John
- Kauai northside
- Cancun
- Cabo San Lucas
- Increased access to Phoenix
- Expanded opportunity for hotel conversions (Starwood hotels)

I believe this transaction benefits all MVC owners because MVC now controls II and they can be creative.

- Expand preference to Marriott & Starwood?
- Redeem Studio for points and deposit the 1BR into II?
- Mine owner trade history?  Maybe I get a call from II one day telling me that a trade I’ve executed before is available - “last year you traded a Ko Olina Studio for a 1Br Park City in Fall.  We’ve just received a Park City deposit with no matching trade request.  Would you like it?  If not do you want to buy [travel insurance/points/platinum membership]”
- maybe they send me an owner survey after a trade and ask me if I would like to be contacted for that scenario?  And pay $49 for this option?

Of all of these things, the most important thing to me is the financial health of Marriott. I don’t mean stock price, I mean the health of the mother ship. We need a viable management company that manages our second home professionally and efficiently.  I don’t mind being asked to pay extra fees to get extra stuff.   Or I can choose to not pay the fees and keep my basic ownership (which I really like).

But i think there is benefit for all owners - MVC and Vistana alike.

Best,

Greg


----------



## 4Sunsets

GregT said:


> I believe the transaction benefits all MVC owners, simply because Marriott is now a more stable, healthier organization, and we need MVC to succeed.
> 
> - Stable recurring revenues (from exchange fees, rental of II inventory, and membership fees) help to reduce the dependence on asset sales.
> 
> - however because asset sales are the juice for MVC, there are now hundreds of thousands of new potential purchasers of points for Marriott.  That can sustain MVC for the next 5-7 years as they work through Vistana owners.   HGVC next.
> 
> I believe this transaction benefits all MVC owners because it opens up new travel destinations.
> 
> - Nassau
> - St. John
> - Kauai northside
> - Cancun
> - Cabo San Lucas
> - Increased access to Phoenix
> - Expanded opportunity for hotel conversions (Starwood hotels)
> 
> I believe this transaction benefits all MVC owners because MVC now controls II and they can be creative.
> 
> - Expand preference to Marriott & Starwood?
> - Redeem Studio for points and deposit the 1BR into II?
> - Mine owner trade history?  Maybe I get a call from II one day telling me that a trade I’ve executed before is available - “last year you traded a Ko Olina Studio for a 1Br Park City in Fall.  We’ve just received a Park City deposit with no matching trade request.  Would you like it?  If not do you want to buy [travel insurance/points/platinum membership]”
> - maybe they send me an owner survey after a trade and ask me if I would like to be contacted for that scenario?  And pay $49 for this option?
> 
> Of all of these things, the most important thing to me is the financial health of Marriott. I don’t mean stock price, I mean the health of the mother ship. We need a viable management company that manages our second home professionally and efficiently.  I don’t mind being asked to pay extra fees to get extra stuff.   Or I can’t choose to not pay the fees and keep my basic ownership (which I really like).
> 
> But i think there is benefit for all owners - MVC and Vistana alike.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



I don't agree with a single thing you've written pro Vistana, unfortunately. From my perspective, it's a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden.

Marriott's most recent quarter is a prelude of what's to come... and in case you don't follow the stock, it wasn't good.

I won't argue that Marriott is an excellent management company. That's rather a key point of the argument against the Vistana properties, which haven't been managed for a really long time and are in sore need of it after years of neglect.

Marriott and MVC were both fiscally and financially healthy before these mergers. On the hotel side, Marriott has made a significant number of missteps. If MVC repeats those same missteps, the motherships are going to sink and no life preserver is  going to save any of us.


----------



## 4Sunsets

dioxide45 said:


> Prices have dropped because MFs are astronomical. Low season weeks are the ones hit the most, they pay the same MF for a lower value time of the year.



Yes, the MF for St John/Bahamas and the rest of the Carib Vistana are astronomical. AND from what I understand some owners do fear an assessment is due, which is why there are sales for $1 that no one is buying, not even Marriott.


----------



## 4Sunsets

SteelerGal said:


> It will be interesting to look back in 5yrs to see how Marriott incorporated Westin/Sheraton as well as Hyatt.



It will be interesting... MF will have at least doubled by then.


----------



## GregT

4Sunsets said:


> I don't agree with a single thing you've written pro Vistana, unfortunately. From my perspective, it's a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden.



I don’t follow the stock, other than to read the disclosures and see what management is saying about expansion (and integration of Vistana)

With apologies, I don’t understand the statement that “it’s a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden”. 

Can you explain what that means?   I don’t see the cost to MVC owners that you suspect is coming and would like to see if I’ve missed something. Thank you. 

Best,

Greg


----------



## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> I don't agree with a single thing you've written pro Vistana, unfortunately. From my perspective, it's a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden.
> 
> Marriott's most recent quarter is a prelude of what's to come... and in case you don't follow the stock, it wasn't good.



in the last 3 months: HGVC down 11%, MVC up 5%


----------



## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> I won't argue that Marriott is an excellent management company. That's rather a key point of the argument against the Vistana properties, which haven't been managed for a really long time and are in sore need of it after years of neglect.



What advice do you have for TUGgers? Buy Vistana resorts and sell MVC, do the opposite, buy both, sell both, do nothing?


----------



## GregT

DannyTS said:


> What advice do you have for TUGgers? Buy Vistana resorts and sell MVC, do the opposite, buy both, sell both, do nothing?



Honestly Danny, for XX years, I’ve seen posters show up and post broadly on their pet peeves and suggest the sky is falling. 

Timeshares aren’t for everyone - and people’s personal evolution can exceed the benefits of timeshares. 

I don’t follow sunsets issue and am curious.  Hopefully we can help and also hoping it’s not just the latest of many  jerking our chain. 

Best,

Greg


----------



## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> St John and Bahamas we've been to. Fairly nice, but people are trying like crazy to sell out of there for pocket change. Some have been listed for a few $$$, and not sold. Marriott already has plenty of ski destinations in all price / cost ranges and doesn't really need any more.


 as others said,  the resale price and the quality of the resort are not necessarily correlated. For example there are tens of  MVC resorts on eBay and most of them are listed for as little as $1. It is also important to note that most Vistana resorts do not have ROFR and this has to be taken into consideration when comparing resale prices.


----------



## SteelerGal

DannyTS said:


> as others said,  the resale price and the quality of the resort are not necessarily correlated. For example there are tens of  MVC resorts on eBay and most of them are listed for as little as $1. It is also important to note that most Vistana resorts do not have ROFR and this has to be taken into consideration when comparing resale prices.
> 
> View attachment 11829


Only my HGVC cost us over $1k.  I was able to p/u WKV and Hyatt for transfer fees.  DSV was less than $400 because it has 2019 usage included. 

Marriott is smart.  They can tier their offerings and provide access to all via a program. The cost savings will come when consolidate all the departments and utilize one System.


----------



## 4Sunsets

DannyTS said:


> in the last 3 months: HGVC down 11%, MVC up 5%
> 
> View attachment 11790



Was referring to the quarterly results... not the stock price


----------



## 4Sunsets

GregT said:


> I don’t follow the stock, other than to read the disclosures and see what management is saying about expansion (and integration of Vistana)
> 
> With apologies, I don’t understand the statement that “it’s a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden”.
> 
> Can you explain what that means?   I don’t see the cost to MVC owners that you suspect is coming and would like to see if I’ve missed something. Thank you.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



IMHO, the properties purchased need a lot of work, especially in Hawaii and Carib. The properties were sold to Vistana in need of work, the work largely wasn't accomplished while owned by Vistana, so we're talking about a period of years where less than stellar management occurred. Now MVC owns these properties and the MF related to many of these properties is already very high, so high in fact some properties in St John / Bahamas etc are being sold for pocket change and not selling. 

The purchase also doubles (or more) inventory that can be booked, but at many less desirable properties than primary Marriott properties. Thus, there may soon be many unhappy Marriott owners who will soon find that they can't book into favorite resorts because the inventory is gone.


----------



## 4Sunsets

SteelerGal said:


> Only my HGVC cost us over $1k.  I was able to p/u WKV and Hyatt for transfer fees.  DSV was less than $400 because it has 2019 usage included.
> 
> Marriott is smart.  They can tier their offerings and provide access to all via a program. The cost savings will come when consolidate all the departments and utilize one System.




Cost savings for Marriott hotel side, which performs the management. Not necessarily, the MVC side, which rents the management. Regarding cost savings, one would think that as a particular resort scales, cost savings would occur that helps reduce MF. However, as witnessed by years of history, this is not the case, Marriott simply continues to increase the management fees to absorb any cost savings. Marriott KoOlina is a prime example. If economies of scale were ever going to result in cost savings and reduce overhead/MF, surely this massive resort would have. Not so, at 28K+ unit weeks, on the way to 40K unit weeks, overhead costs and MF have never skipped a beat in a steady rise.


----------



## 4Sunsets

DannyTS said:


> as others said,  the resale price and the quality of the resort are not necessarily correlated. For example there are tens of  MVC resorts on eBay and most of them are listed for as little as $1. It is also important to note that most Vistana resorts do not have ROFR and this has to be taken into consideration when comparing resale prices.
> 
> View attachment 11829



Some of that cheap inventory on all sides does NOT exist. Redweek Verified listings are a better source.

Never forget the inventory is manipulated on all sides, people are gaming the system all the time by listing non-existent inventory.


----------



## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> Some of that cheap inventory on all sides does NOT exist.
> 
> Never forget the inventory is manipulated on all sides, people are gaming the system all the time by listing non-existent inventory.



Wow, we have a 360 degree conspiracy theory here! 

I do not know about others, but i would like to know more about your experience in the TS industry, either as an owner or as an insider. I am not trying to be stingy, just that you are making extreme (IMO) statements that do not seem to bear any credibility to me, except if you have a very solid background in this area.


----------



## JIMinNC

4Sunsets said:


> Cost savings for Marriott hotel side, which performs the management. Not necessarily, the MVC side, which rents the management. Regarding cost savings, one would think that as a particular resort scales, cost savings would occur that helps reduce MF. However, as witnessed by years of history, this is not the case, Marriott simply continues to increase the management fees to absorb any cost savings. Marriott KoOlina is a prime example. If economies of scale were ever going to result in cost savings and reduce overhead/MF, surely this massive resort would have. Not so, at 28K+ unit weeks, on the way to 40K unit weeks, overhead costs and MF have never skipped a beat in a steady rise.



A couple corrections/clarifications:

1.) Marriott International hotels does not do the management for MVC timeshares. Marriott Vacations Worldwide, the timeshare company, acts as the property manager for all MVC timeshares and earns the management fee for doing so. They just pay a licensing fee to Marriott International hotels for use of the brands, access to the Marriott.com reservation system for rentals, and for participation in Bonvoy, etc..

2.) At most, if not all, MVC resorts the management fee is set as a specific % of HOA operating costs. So, the management fee increases in direct proportion to the operating costs. Obviously, this means MVC has no real incentive to keep costs in line, but it also means they at least have to justify cost increases in some way. They can't just arbitrarily increase the management fee. When we owned in the Diamond system prior to our MVC ownership, they seemed to be able to increase their management fee at their own whim. By contrast, the Marriott approach is refreshing.


----------



## 4Sunsets

DannyTS said:


> Wow, we have a 360 degree conspiracy theory here!
> 
> I do not know about others, but i would like to know more about your experience in the TS industry, either as an owner or as an insider. I am not trying to be stingy, just that you are making extreme (IMO) statements that do not seem to bear any credibility to me, except if you have a very solid background in this area.




Well, go try to buy some of that and good luck with it. As for background, read my signature, been around 25 years.

And while certainly a fun parlor trick to debase someone for supposed lack of experience, one should first offer up a background on their copious amounts of experience in the matter first. It's simply good etiquette.


----------



## bobpark56

4Sunsets said:


> I don't agree with a single thing you've written pro Vistana, unfortunately. From my perspective, it's a dilution that is going to cost MVC owners and a great expensive burden.
> 
> Marriott's most recent quarter is a prelude of what's to come... and in case you don't follow the stock, it wasn't good.
> 
> I won't argue that Marriott is an excellent management company. That's rather a key point of the argument against the Vistana properties, which haven't been managed for a really long time and are in sore need of it after years of neglect.
> 
> Marriott and MVC were both fiscally and financially healthy before these mergers. On the hotel side, Marriott has made a significant number of missteps. If MVC repeats those same missteps, the motherships are going to sink and no life preserver is  going to save any of us.



Where the heck do you get "years of neglect?" We stay 2 to 3 weeks every year at Westin Lagunamar, and every year the resort has gotten better, and the management continues to invest more in it to improve things for owners and keep maintenance fees down. This has been quite well described to owners who attend the annual January HOA meeting. I think you speak from too much ignorance.


----------



## YYJMSP

4Sunsets said:


> IMHO, the properties purchased need a lot of work, especially in Hawaii and Carib. The properties were sold to Vistana in need of work, the work largely wasn't accomplished while owned by Vistana, so we're talking about a period of years where less than stellar management occurred.



not sure what properties you are talking about.  Vistana Signature Experiences, formerly named Starwood Vacation Network, built the Hawaii properties -- they did not buy them from someone else.  Same applies to a vast majority of the other locations.  The few exceptions include hotel properties that were converted, but i think most of those came from Starwood Hotels.

and i have no idea what properties you claim were not kept up to date, and needed a lot of work, etc...


----------



## bizaro86

YYJMSP said:


> not sure what properties you are talking about.  Vistana Signature Experiences, formerly named Starwood Vacation Network, built the Hawaii properties -- they did not buy them from someone else.  Same applies to a vast majority of the other locations.  The few exceptions include hotel properties that were converted, but i think most of those came from Starwood Hotels.
> 
> and i have no idea what properties you claim were not kept up to date, and needed a lot of work, etc...



I think the Vistana properties are at least as nice/well maintained as the MVC properties on average.


----------



## YYJMSP

bizaro86 said:


> I think the Vistana properties are at least as nice/well maintained as the MVC properties on average.



I think the VSE properties are better maintained.

We keep looking at new possible destinations for holidays, and often see MVC properties available for MB redemptions, and then we head to YouTube to check out people's videos of the place and I would say 75% of the time the first words out of my wife's mouth is something about how Marriott properties look old and run down...

will we stay at them if there's some overlay program? sure, but our expectations will be lower when staying at a Marriott vs a Westin branded property.


----------



## bizaro86

YYJMSP said:


> I think the VSE properties are better maintained.
> 
> We keep looking at new possible destinations for holidays, and often see MVC properties available for MB redemptions, and then we head to YouTube to check out people's videos of the place and I would say 75% of the time the first words out of my wife's mouth is something about how Marriott properties look old and run down...
> 
> will we stay at them if there's some overlay program? sure, but our expectations will be lower when staying at a Marriott vs a Westin branded property.



I would generally agree. I think Westin resorts are a half step above the average MVC, with Sheraton maybe a half step below on average. YMMV, and this is always a very contentious topic so I always hesitate to comment.


----------



## dioxide45

Personally, I found the newly refurbished villa at SVV last year to be fantastic and just about on par with newly renovated Marriotts. However we did stay in some newly renovated units at Beachplace Towers and Aruba Surf Club and they were top notch. Westin villas are fantastic too and really only place them above Marriott due to the in room amenities such as a better kitchenette and laundry in the studios. I have yet to be impressed with the Heavenly Beds, perhaps because the one we had at the Westin Maui in 2000 was out of this world and what they have now simply don't compare. Marriott mattresses are hard as a rock though, so I do give a slight edge to Westin on the beds.

As far as comparing the grounds and resort amenities, I think this is one where Marriott is a notch above. Comparing the Maui Ocean Club vs any of the Westin properties on Maui, the Marriott has much more of a "resort" feel to it. The same could be said for Grande Vista over Sheraton Vistana VIllages. Though we do love Vistana Villages.

Villas - Westin > Marriott
Villas - Marriott > Sheraton
Grounds - Marriott > Westin & Sheraton

> means better than.


----------



## bizaro86

I think housekeeping/services are better at Vistana than MVC. My success rate at getting in by check-in time has been better.

Also, MVC doesn't have a midweek cleaning as a brand standard, which really should be the minimum for an upscale property imo. I believe all Vistana/HGVC properties do this, and even my silver crown independent  does.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> I think housekeeping/services are better at Vistana than MVC. My success rate at getting in by check-in time has been better.
> 
> Also, MVC doesn't have a midweek cleaning as a brand standard, which really should be the minimum for an upscale property imo. I believe all Vistana/HGVC properties do this, and even my silver crown independent  does.


I don't think SVV has a mid-week tidy. One thing I dislike about Vistana properties is that there is no trash chute. I always have problems getting rid of a full bag of trash between cleanings. With Marriott, it is a DIY. I like that.


----------



## dsmrp

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think SVV has a mid-week tidy. One thing I dislike about Vistana properties is that there is no trash chute. I always have problems getting rid of a full bag of trash between cleanings. With Marriott, it is a DIY. I like that.



I haven't stayed at SVV, but have at SVR, albeit at least 5 years ago.  I recall at mid-week tidy at SVR.
We've also carried out our own trash/recycle to the large bins if we see them.
I think SDO was last place we stayed at in December, and the recycle collector bins were out of sight.
We were told to just put our garbage & recycle bags outside the door and maintenance would pick it up as they went round to other villas.

I've got used to a mid-week tidy, even at non-Vistana properties.  I would be very surprised for most Marriott resorts not to offer it.


----------



## JIMinNC

dsmrp said:


> I've got used to a mid-week tidy, even at non-Vistana properties.  I would be very surprised for most Marriott resorts not to offer it.



If I'm not mistaken, I believe we got a mid-week tidy at both Marriott's Waiohai on Kauai and at Marriott's Maui Ocean Club on our trip a couple  months ago.


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> If I'm not mistaken, I believe we got a mid-week tidy at both Marriott's Waiohai on Kauai and at Marriott's Maui Ocean Club on our trip a couple  months ago.


Yes, midweek tidy is something that the Marriott properties in Hawaii and the Caribbean offer. Though not at any domestic US properties. Daily service in Europe and Asia.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

Our friends own Marriott in Tahoe and they have mentioned a mid-week tidy.

Given the high MF that MVC owners pay (on average $1000 or $1500 more per year than HGVC or Hyatt which offer mid-week tidies) I would be surprised if they don't offer them.  Otherwise, that's just plain gross.


----------



## YYJMSP

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think SVV has a mid-week tidy. One thing I dislike about Vistana properties is that there is no trash chute. I always have problems getting rid of a full bag of trash between cleanings. With Marriott, it is a DIY. I like that.



We always called down at the various VSE properties, have been told to leave the garbage bags outside the door, and someone came to grab them pretty quickly...


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## CalGalTraveler

You can also call and get more towels and have them take the old ones away even if it is not your mid-week.


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> Given the high MF that MVC owners pay (on average $1000 or $1500 more per year than HGVC or Hyatt which offer mid-week tidies)



How do you figure that Marriott resorts have maintenance fees that much higher than HGVC or Hyatt? Our HGVC Seaworld 2BR is a little under $1200, our Marriott 2BR Barony Hilton Head a little under $1400. Our Hawaii resorts are more - $2100 per use year for Waiohai and $2400 for Maui Ocean Club. The only MVC 2BRs in the entire system with fees over $2000/year are those in Hawaii and a couple in the Caribbean. For MVC to be $1000 to $1500 more on average, would have to mean that HGVC and Hyatt fees were well under $500/year. Did you mean $100 or $150 more? That would make sense.


----------



## bizaro86

CalGalTraveler said:


> You can also call and get more towels and have them take the old ones away even if it is not your mid-week.



Marriott Shadow Ridge wanted to charge me for that. It wasn't nominal either, IIRC it would have been ~$40-50. The amount might not be correct, but there was definitely no midweek tidy and they definitely said there would be a charge to get new towels.  I washed the ones we had, but that didn't feel like a high end vacation to me...


----------



## CalGalTraveler

HGVC Oahu runs in the $1200 - $1750 range on average (and Honolulu is expensive). Ocean Tower on the Big Island runs around $1700 for a 2 bdrm OV Penthouse.  MOC is about $2,400+. In NYC MF run around $1500 - $1900. MVC? Perhaps in Orlando or South Carolina they are similar (we never go there) but even in Vegas HGVC runs $800 - $1,100 for a 2 bdrm whereas the Grand Chateau is about $1250.  Perhaps $500 to $1000 but still a big difference for similar quality.


----------



## TravelTime

JIMinNC said:


> How do you figure that Marriott resorts have maintenance fees that much higher than HGVC or Hyatt? Our HGVC Seaworld 2BR is a little under $1200, our Marriott 2BR Barony Hilton Head a little under $1400. Our Hawaii resorts are more - $2100 per use year for Waiohai and $2400 for Maui Ocean Club. The only MVC 2BRs in the entire system with fees over $2000/year are those in Hawaii and a couple in the Caribbean. For MVC to be $1000 to $1500 more on average, would have to mean that HGVC and Hyatt fees were well under $500/year. Did you mean $100 or $150 more? That would make sense.



I own at Westin Kaanapali North OF. The maintenance fee is between $2700 - $2800. Higher than Marriott in Maui.


----------



## TravelTime

Marriott Ko Olina is more expensive than Hilton Grand Vacations on Oahu. The per night rate is much higher for MKO. I suspect the pricing is irrelevant. I think Marriott Vacation Club wants to be priced above an equivalent Hilton timeshare. From what I can see in terms of pricing and repuation, it seems to be Sheraton, Hilton, Marriott, Westin and then Hyatt. I think Hilton lost its brand reputation a long time ago although I am sure there are some really nice Hiltons.


----------



## vacationtime1

QUOTE="TravelTime, post: 2285619, member: 105071"]I own at Westin Kaanapali North OF. The maintenance fee is between $2700 - $2800. Higher than Marriott in Maui.[/QUOTE]

I own at Westin Kaanapali (south) OFC.  MF's are $2,384, for a two bedroom, a few dollars less than a 2bd at the Maui Ocean Club old section, about $300 less than at MOC's new towers, and hundreds less than those who "own" via DC points.

(The difference between WKORV and WKORVN maintenance fees has never made sense to me; the resorts are adjacent and very comparable; units at WKORVN are actually about 10% smaller than those at WKORV.)


----------



## CalGalTraveler

TravelTime said:


> Marriott Ko Olina is more expensive than Hilton Grand Vacations on Oahu. The per night rate is much higher for MKO. I suspect the pricing is irrelevant. I think Marriott Vacation Club wants to be priced above an equivalent Hilton timeshare. From what I can see in terms of pricing and repuation, it seems to be Sheraton, Hilton, Marriott, Westin and then Hyatt. I think Hilton lost its brand reputation a long time ago although I am sure there are some really nice Hiltons.



I believe you are referring to the hotels, not the timeshares.


----------



## YYJMSP

vacationtime1 said:


> QUOTE="TravelTime, post: 2285619, member: 105071"]I own at Westin Kaanapali North OF. The maintenance fee is between $2700 - $2800. Higher than Marriott in Maui.






> I own at Westin Kaanapali (south) OFC.  MF's are $2,384, for a two bedroom, a few dollars less than a 2bd at the Maui Ocean Club old section, about $300 less than at MOC's new towers, and hundreds less than those who "own" via DC points.


​


> (The difference between WKORV and WKORVN maintenance fees has never made sense to me; the resorts are adjacent and very comparable; units at WKORVN are actually about 10% smaller than those at WKORV.)



WKORN was around $2700 last year.  I'm pretty sure that WKORV was less (I can't compare directly, as we own a Deluxe unit at WKORV so their MFs are higher than the regular 2BRs)


----------



## bizaro86

vacationtime1 said:


> QUOTE="TravelTime, post: 2285619, member: 105071"]I own at Westin Kaanapali North OF. The maintenance fee is between $2700 - $2800. Higher than Marriott in Maui.



I own at Westin Kaanapali (south) OFC.  MF's are $2,384, for a two bedroom, a few dollars less than a 2bd at the Maui Ocean Club old section, about $300 less than at MOC's new towers, and hundreds less than those who "own" via DC points.

(The difference between WKORV and WKORVN maintenance fees has never made sense to me; the resorts are adjacent and very comparable; units at WKORVN are actually about 10% smaller than those at WKORV.)[/QUOTE]

South is cheaper because more of the costs are borne by deluxe and standalone 1 bedroom owners, both of which pay more than their fair share (imo). The north resort doesn't have those room types.


----------



## vacationtime1

bizaro86 said:


> South is cheaper because more of the costs are borne by deluxe and standalone 1 bedroom owners, both of which pay more than their fair share (imo). The north resort doesn't have those room types.



That makes sense; MF's on the deluxe units are about $800/yr higher than the basic ("premium") unit.  And the dedicated one bedroom units have disproportionate MF's as well.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> I believe you are referring to the hotels, not the timeshares.



No I was referring to timeshare rentals on the open market (not through an owner).


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I have stayed at multiple properties at both and I find HGVC comparable to MVC quality-wise. However HGVC treats its owners much better and the points system beats MVC hands down.


----------



## bizaro86

CalGalTraveler said:


> HGVC is comparable to MVC quality-wise. However HGVC treats its owners much better and the points system beats MVC hands down.



The big thing where MVC beats both HGVC and Vistana hands down is the diversity of their locations.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

I agree that MVC on paper has more locations, but if you factor in that only 60% of owners have enrolled after almost 10 years (leaving 40% of weeks properties unavailable to MVC owners to trade into), plus the trust which has a lot of off-season junk that no one wants, I would say that # of units available to trade is not much different but there are fewer high season, highly desirable properties available because those owners either enroll and use the week, or are not enrolled.

With HGVC and Vistana (mandatory and developer sales), every property is enrolled automatically so almost everything in the system is available to trade. With HGVC most owners use points for short stays and upgraded units instead of their deeded week so the system is highly fluid, making high-end properties available if you are diligent (e.g. Hawaii OF during summer and whale). Vistana is a bit stickier in terms of owners using their weeks (myself included), but I see many Vistana owners regularly trading into nice properties with SOs with short and long stays.

No system is perfect but I would argue that MVC looks good on paper but is not as big as it seems when you look at it from a trading perspective.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

TravelTime said:


> I own at Westin Kaanapali North OF. The maintenance fee is between $2700 - $2800. Higher than Marriott in Maui.



Westin MF includes annual membership in II and SOs.  Adding II to MOC/towers plus the cost of enrollment and any associated fees would bring the figures closer together. Need apples to apples.


----------



## TravelTime

There is also an additional fee on top of the MF for WKOVRN too. It is higher because we pay more for an EOY but I can’t remember the name of the fee. Frankly, I think the difference in a couple hundred dollars a year is inconsequential.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

IMO...I believe it is about equal when you compare Westin HI to MOC Towers apples to apples with II membership etc. but may be even more $ if you allocate the cost of enrollment and the cost of having to purchase a second property to get 13 month preferential reservations so you can ensure booking during high season.

Plenty of hidden costs in the MVC system. And this gets to my point: HGVC includes RCI membership in the $1200 - $1700 MF. There is a nominal $699 mandatory "enrollment" fee for every new purchase, but you don't need to buy a second unit to get 13 month preferential reservations and don't have to pay additional for an exchange program.  You can also buy HGVC resale for a lot less than MVC making your capital risk and loss much less.

You get similar quality. Fewer resort locations for sure, but HGVC is aggressively adding more with 10 upcoming locations. Many are in locations that traditional MVC doesn't have: e.g. Japan (2 properties), Portugal, Italy, Scotland;NYC - multiple properties; Mexico - multiple locations; Barbados; Chicago, Charleston.

Plus, I can use cash getaways, ACs or rent for much less than owning using II with my Vistana acct when I want to stay at an MVC where a location doesn't exist in either system.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> IMO...I believe it is about equal when you compare apples to apples with II membership etc. but may be even more if you allocate the of enrollment and the cost of having to purchase a second property to get 13 month preferential reservations so you can ensure booking during high season. Plenty of hidden costs in the MVC system.



You can’t book a holiday week through Westin either. They block weeks 51 and 52. However it is not an issue to book a high season week through either system at 12 months or less usually. I have a 13 month booking window in MVC as a presidential member and do not usually worry about it. I tend to book closer in and rarely have a problem with either MVC or Vistana. I do not see why you keep trying to prove that Westin is lower priced and easier to book than MVC? IMO, they are one and the same. Pros and cons to each. If there is a cost differential, it is minimal when in the same comparable location. I am an owner at both and I can’t remember the exact annual MF and other fees I pay for each. All I recall is that the WKOVRN with the annual fees came close to $2900+ per year.

Okay I looked it up:

WKOVR North EOY 2 BR OF

$133.92 Master Association Assessment
$283.41 Apartment Owners Assessment
$923.12 Vacation Ownership Assessment
$1340.45 Total EOY


$151.04 VSN Membership Fee (annual)

Grand Total for 1 EOY week: $2982.98

Total for an annual week is about $2800 or so because VSN is paid yearly for an annual or EOY week and one of the association fees is higher for an EOY week.


----------



## TravelTime

Someone posted this for the Marriott MOC (I am using this posting because it is the nicer buildings of MOC and comparable as a 2 BR OF). I do not think the II trading fee is that much extra and it is optional since you do not need to pay to join II on a resale week. VSN membership fee is mandatory every year.

*Marriott’s Maui Ocean Club (MM1) - Lahaina/Napili 2BR OF*

2019 AOAO Replacement Reserve 160.87
2019 Property Tax Fee 341.32
2019 Replacement Reserve 341.95
2019 AOAO Operating Fee 794.12
2019 Operating Fee 1059.09

*Total $2697.35*


----------



## CalGalTraveler

You need to compare apples to apples. For MOC Towers you need to compare annual to annual. Not annual to EOY. Plus for MOC add II annual dues and an annualized distribution of the cost of enrolling the property in the points system at a minimum. Also allocate an extra property to get 13 months priority for high season (this could be optional but if you are serious about getting high season weeks consistently this should be added.)


----------



## TravelTime

I am staying at both WKOVR south 1 BR OF unit as well as a Marriott MOC-Napilii/Lahaina 1 BR OF corner deluxe. I will do a direct comparison for quality and views. From what I see so far, I suspect the OF corner deluxe will be the winner due to the huge balcony. I suspect both WKOVR OF and MOC Napili/Lahaina will beat the OF at WKOVRN.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> For MOC You need to add II annual dues and the annualized cost of enrollment at a minimum; need to compare apples to apples.



II is optional and most owners of a premium OF unit in MAUI will not use II to exchange. II is under $100 per year and a lot less if you buy a 3 to 5 year plan. Much less than the VSN mandatory membership fees. I do not think you need to add in the cost of enrollment. Why would you need to do that if it is a resale week? But if you are comparing the cost of enrollment, then MVC is not apples to apples since Vistana only has a few ways to internally exchange and most would be terrible exchanges for a Maui week. The only comparable exchanges would be WKOVR south OF, WSJ and Bahamas. With MVC, there are many more exchange options once enrolled. I enrolled a Ko Olina week and got a Spain week with it. That was a great deal.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

You are missing the point. Westin comes with II and enrollment in SO bundled. MVC does not. Compare apples to apples. I've got to get back to work now.


----------



## TravelTime

CalGalTraveler said:


> You are missing the point. Westin comes with II and enrollment in SO bundled. Compare apples to apples. I've got to get back to work now.



I get it. I do not think you are comparing Apple to Apples either. I think we are not communicating clearly. Enrollment in the mandatory resorts at Vistana (where applicable) is not comparable to enrollment in MVC. You would pay something like $69 or so per year for annual enrollment in II, which is also optional. I would not trade a Maui OF week in II, that’s for sure! I will not trade anything in II if I can help it. I actually hate that with Vistana and MVC DPs that I am required to pay the II fee since I do not need it with those programs.


----------



## Helios

YYJMSP said:


> I think the VSE properties are better maintained.
> 
> We keep looking at new possible destinations for holidays, and often see MVC properties available for MB redemptions, and then we head to YouTube to check out people's videos of the place and I would say 75% of the time the first words out of my wife's mouth is something about how Marriott properties look old and run down...
> 
> will we stay at them if there's some overlay program? sure, but our expectations will be lower when staying at a Marriott vs a Westin branded property.


Totally agree.


----------



## JIMinNC

CalGalTraveler said:


> I agree that MVC on paper has more locations, but if you factor in that only 60% of owners have enrolled after almost 10 years (leaving 40% of weeks properties unavailable to MVC owners to trade into), plus the trust which has a lot of off-season junk that no one wants, I would say that # of units available to trade is not much different but there are fewer high season, highly desirable properties available because those owners either enroll and use the week, or are not enrolled.
> 
> With HGVC and Vistana (mandatory and developer sales), every property is enrolled automatically so almost everything in the system is available to trade. With HGVC most owners use points for short stays and upgraded units instead of their deeded week so the system is highly fluid, making high-end properties available if you are diligent (e.g. Hawaii OF during summer and whale). Vistana is a bit stickier in terms of owners using their weeks (myself included), but I see many Vistana owners regularly trading into nice properties with SOs with short and long stays.
> 
> No system is perfect but I would argue that MVC looks good on paper but is not as big as it seems when you look at it from a trading perspective.



Based on my experience over the last 5 years, the availability for points bookings in the MVC system is better than the implications above. While in theory, you are basically correct, in practice, we've always been able to find exactly what we are looking for with MVC points. The one exception might be the Caribbean resorts and the European resorts. We've never actually tried to book any of those yet, but based on some "shopping" I've done just for educational purposes, Caribbean and Europe availability seems a bit more spotty than Hawaii, Hilton Head, Florida, California, etc. In these latter locations, I've been able to get what I want, even sometimes when not booking exactly at inventory release. We successfully booked a week on Maui for next February 8 around mid-March, which was just inside 11 months out. I was surprised there was availability for that time of year at that point, so when we sorta spontaneously decided to go back to Hawaii in an even year in addition to sticking to our planned odd year trips with our owned weeks, we were able to get what we wanted a bit later than I ever thought would be possible. Granted I've never tried to book the REALLY tough weeks like Presidents Day, Christmas, New Years, etc, but those are tough all over.

I agree that HGVC is much more user-friendly and easy to book with points than MVC (I have no experience with VSE), but by my experience Marriott isn't as bad as the facts you outlined would seem to imply, even though everything you said is basically factually true. Thanks to ROFR, buybacks, etc getting some high quality weeks into the MVC trust and owners who have enrolled/elected their weeks, good, high-demand inventory is available in the MVC points system.


----------



## dioxide45

THere is a misconception that the trust is full of junk. Up front there were a lot of off season weeks initially put in, but there are also some resorts that are now 100% trust and with nine years of buybacks, ROFR and foreclosures, they seem to have seeded the trust pretty good.


----------



## Helios

CalGalTraveler said:


> I have stayed at multiple properties at both and I find HGVC comparable to MVC quality-wise. However HGVC treats its owners much better and the points system beats MVC hands down.


This is my experience as an owner in the 3 Systems.


----------



## ski_sierra

dioxide45 said:


> THere is a misconception that the trust is full of junk. Up front there were a lot of off season weeks initially put in, but there are also some resorts that are now 100% trust and with nine years of buybacks, ROFR and foreclosures, they seem to have seeded the trust pretty good.



Interesting.. just from a profit maximizing perspective, I would have thought Marriott would buy the high demand weeks and use it for renting out on Marriott.com. Buyback the low demand weeks and put them in the trust. Is their any disclosure of how much inventory is owned at various resorts in different seasons?

Sometimes I don't understand why any hotel associated brand would sell a holiday week. I am sure they have run the numbers and priced it exhorbitantly high so that it would be hard to break even on those weeks for any owner (MVC or private).


----------



## TravelTime

JIMinNC said:


> Based on my experience over the last 5 years, the availability for points bookings in the MVC system is better than the implications above. While in theory, you are basically correct, in practice, we've always been able to find exactly what we are looking for with MVC points. The one exception might be the Caribbean resorts and the European resorts. We've never actually tried to book any of those yet, but based on some "shopping" I've done just for educational purposes, Caribbean and Europe availability seems a bit more spotty than Hawaii, Hilton Head, Florida, California, etc. In these latter locations, I've been able to get what I want, even sometimes when not booking exactly at inventory release. We successfully booked a week on Maui for next February 8 around mid-March, which was just inside 11 months out. I was surprised there was availability for that time of year at that point, so when we sorta spontaneously decided to go back to Hawaii in an even year in addition to sticking to our planned odd year trips with our owned weeks, we were able to get what we wanted a bit later than I ever thought would be possible. Granted I've never tried to book the REALLY tough weeks like Presidents Day, Christmas, New Years, etc, but those are tough all over.
> 
> I agree that HGVC is much more user-friendly and easy to book with points than MVC (I have no experience with VSE), but by my experience Marriott isn't as bad as the facts you outlined would seem to imply, even though everything you said is basically factually true. Thanks to ROFR, buybacks, etc getting some high quality weeks into the MVC trust and owners who have enrolled/elected their weeks, good, high-demand inventory is available in the MVC points system.



Yes I agree. I have gotten everything I want through the MVC points system. I am also with Vistana and the exchanges into St John and theBahamas are a lot harder to get then exchanging into a Marriott or Ritz Carlton Caribbean resort. You really do need to be on Vistana right at the 8 month mark to have a good shot at getting one of their Caribbean resorts in almost any season.


----------



## dioxide45

ski_sierra said:


> Interesting.. just from a profit maximizing perspective, I would have thought Marriott would buy the high demand weeks and use it for renting out on Marriott.com. Buyback the low demand weeks and put them in the trust. Is their any disclosure of how much inventory is owned at various resorts in different seasons?
> 
> Sometimes I don't understand why any hotel associated brand would sell a holiday week. I am sure they have run the numbers and priced it exhorbitantly high so that it would be hard to break even on those weeks for any owner (MVC or private).


All of the deeds and conveyances to the trust are recorded in Orange County Florida and are public record. For a while I kept track of all the weeks that were conveyed to the trust, but I stopped several years ago.

While a chunk of Marriott Vacation Club's profit comes from renting out timeshare units on Marriott.com, that simply isn't their core business and it carries an inherent risk. If the economy tanks they have a lot of inventory on their hands that they may need to start renting out at a loss. Marriott Vacation Club really isn't in the rental business, their core product is vacation club sales and management. They have a reliable revenue stream in maintenance fees and make the bulk of their income off of sales.

They sell the holiday weeks because it means a huge proffic up front that they can then use to reinvest back in to the company to generate more sales.


----------



## ski_sierra

dioxide45 said:


> All of the deeds and conveyances to the trust are recorded in Orange County Florida and are public record. For a while I kept track of all the weeks that were conveyed to the trust, but I stopped several years ago.


Nice. I wonder if someone has created a readable summary of this data.



> While a chunk of Marriott Vacation Club's profit comes from renting out timeshare units on Marriott.com, that simply isn't their core business and it carries an inherent risk. If the economy tanks they have a lot of inventory on their hands that they may need to start renting out at a loss. Marriott Vacation Club really isn't in the rental business, their core product is vacation club sales and management. They have a reliable revenue stream in maintenance fees and make the bulk of their income off of sales.
> They sell the holiday weeks because it means a huge proffic up front that they can then use to reinvest back in to the company to generate more sales.



I see. Selling new timeshares is so profitable that they probably look at rentals as a distraction. By necessity, they have a rental business for their unsold inventory. I would think holiday weeks would have the lowest risk.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> All of the deeds and conveyances to the trust are recorded in Orange County Florida and are public record. For a while I kept track of all the weeks that were conveyed to the trust, but I stopped several years ago.



Dioxide is being very modest here -- it was a monumental effort and here is the last post of the points in the Trust -- circa 2016.

This tells you how many points Marriott has generated from depositing weeks into the Trust -- so there is Massive inventory for Grand Chateau.   The low point totals (Summit Watch -- a ski property?) mean Marriott is dependent on owners redeeming their weeks for points (or that week being available via an II trade -- which Marriott can pick off).




			
				dioxide45 said:
			
		

> Breakdown by Property
> 
> *Resort.....................................Points*
> Grand Chateau..........................52,703,750
> Ko'Olina...............................30,045,750
> Newport Coast..........................29,394,500
> Oceana Palms...........................23,391,250
> Grande Vista...........................19,272,750
> Kalanipu'u.............................18,293,500
> Timber Lodge...........................17,677,250
> Shadow Ridge II........................13,429,500
> Maui Ocean Club........................11,981,250
> Ritz Carlton Club - Vail...............11,813,500
> The Mayflower..........................10,748,750
> Crystal Shores..........................9,598,250
> Cypress Harbour.........................9,156,000
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel..................8,773,500
> Ocean Pointe............................8,588,000
> Harbour Lake............................8,506,500
> Shadow Ridge............................8,053,750
> Desert Springs II.......................7,686,750
> Canyon Villas...........................5,820,500
> Kauai Beach Club........................5,204,250
> Ocean Watch.............................4,656,250
> Willow Ridge Lodge......................4,552,000
> Waiohai.................................4,446,000
> Grand Residence Lake Tahoe..............4,322,250
> Desert Springs I........................4,299,000
> BeachPlace Towers.......................3,734,000
> Barony Beach Club.......................3,339,750
> Grande Ocean............................3,159,250
> Fairway Villas..........................2,827,750
> Ritz Carlton Club - San Francisco.......2,678,000
> Frenchman's Cove........................2,553,750
> Surfwatch...............................2,532,500
> Villas at Doral.........................2,423,750
> Mountain Side...........................2,249,250
> Royal Palms.............................2,134,750
> Lakeshore Reserve.......................2,021,000
> Summit Watch............................1,996,000
> Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas...........1,841,250
> Legends Edge............................1,588,500
> Manor Club..............................1,558,500
> Sabal Palms.............................1,545,500
> Ritz Carlton Club - Lake Tahoe..........1,462,750
> Mountain Valley Lodge...................1,248,750
> Manor Club Sequel.......................1,083,000
> Streamside..............................1,007,500
> Monarch at Sea Pines......................995,750
> Imperial Palms............................714,500
> Harbour Pointe............................665,000
> Harbour Club..............................303,750
> Heritage Club.............................267,500
> Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas Suites......243,250
> Sunset Pointe.............................159,500
> *Grand Total...........................378,749,500*


----------



## JIMinNC

ski_sierra said:


> Interesting.. just from a profit maximizing perspective, I would have thought Marriott would buy the high demand weeks and use it for renting out on Marriott.com. Buyback the low demand weeks and put them in the trust. Is their any disclosure of how much inventory is owned at various resorts in different seasons?
> 
> Sometimes I don't understand why any hotel associated brand would sell a holiday week. I am sure they have run the numbers and priced it exhorbitantly high so that it would be hard to break even on those weeks for any owner (MVC or private).



I'll add the following to dioxide45's spot-on comments about why they wouldn't be incentivized to do what you suggest...

While profits are the top priority for Marriott Vacations Worldwide, as dioxide 45 said, Sales is their primary driver - in 2018 $990 million versus only $352 million for rentals. Right now, somewhere around 60% of new sales are from existing owners (according to their investor conference calls). While they have a long-term goal to increase sales to new owners to about 50%, thus reducing sales to existing owners to 50%, they need very happy owners to get those levels of repeat buyers. If the Trust/DC Exchange pool was devoid of high-demand weeks, they would have many fewer happy owners. This is one area where the goals of MVC do align fairly well with our goals as owners. Since happy owners often buy more, they actually do want us to be happy.

Another reason they would have a disincentive to buy a low demand week to put in the Trust, is the Trust has to pay the maintenance fees on any unsold points in the Trust. For example, buying back a Bronze season Oceanside week at Hilton Head Grand Ocean would only add 775 points to the Trust for future sale, but the Trust would still be responsible for paying the $1491 maintenance fee for 2019. That's $1.92/point versus the average $0.58/point fee for the entire Trust. Granted, that's a somewhat edge case extreme example, but it gives you a flavor of the problems that would be created, even for MVC, if the Trust only held low demand weeks.


----------



## ski_sierra

JIMinNC said:


> I'll add the following to dioxide45's spot-on comments about why they wouldn't be incentivized to do what you suggest...
> 
> While profits are the top priority for Marriott Vacations Worldwide, as dioxide 45 said, Sales is their primary driver - in 2018 $990 million versus only $352 million for rentals. Right now, somewhere around 60% of new sales are from existing owners (according to their investor conference calls). While they have a long-term goal to increase sales to new owners to about 50%, thus reducing sales to existing owners to 50%, they need very happy owners to get those levels of repeat buyers. If the Trust/DC Exchange pool was devoid of high-demand weeks, they would have many fewer happy owners. This is one area where the goals of MVC do align fairly well with our goals as owners. Since happy owners often buy more, they actually do want us to be happy.
> 
> Another reason they would have a disincentive to buy a low demand week to put in the Trust, is the Trust has to pay the maintenance fees on any unsold points in the Trust. For example, buying back a Bronze season Oceanside week at Hilton Head Grand Ocean would only add 775 points to the Trust for future sale, but the Trust would still be responsible for paying the $1491 maintenance fee for 2019. That's $1.92/point versus the average $0.58/point fee for the entire Trust. Granted, that's a somewhat edge case extreme example, but it gives you a flavor of the problems that would be created, even for MVC, if the Trust only held low demand weeks.



This is very insightful. I think when MVC owns some inventory in the trust they also have an incentive to keep a lid on the MFs. I've wondered why a developer wouldn't increase the MFs as much as possible. Your explanation is one such reason for why they wouldn't want to do that.


----------



## JIMinNC

ski_sierra said:


> This is very insightful. I think when MVC owns some inventory in the trust they also have an incentive to keep a lid on the MFs. I've wondered why a developer wouldn't increase the MFs as much as possible. Your explanation is one such reason for why they wouldn't want to do that.



Also, remember the maintenance fee itself does not go to the developer, it goes to the resort HOA, which is a separate legal entity with a separate income statement. The monies we pay show up as revenue for the HOA, offset by the operating expenses, reserve expenses, and property taxes paid by the HOA to run to the resort. The only money that actually goes to a developer like Marriott Vacations Worldwide, and into their reportable revenue, is the management fee they charge each HOA, and which shows up as an expense to the HOA.

The expenses of operating the resort are disclosed every year to all owners, so the maintenance fee can't be increased without a corresponding demonstration of a rise in operating expenses. And at least for Marriott, the management fee they charge the HOA is set at a defined % of expenses. Their fee gets to go up as expenses go up, so there is really no strong incentive to keep fees low, but the requirements to disclose a budget and justify increases to the owners does serve to make it hard for them to arbitrarily increase fees to whatever the market might bear. It still has to be based on the costs of operating the resort.


----------



## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> They have a reliable revenue stream in maintenance fees...



I think we would all be well served to try to avoid implying that a developer like Marriott Vacations Worldwide has a "revenue stream in maintenance fees." As I know you are well aware, the maintenance fees themselves actually go to the HOA, and show up on the HOA income statement. The reliable revenue stream to MVW actually comes from the management fee that shows up as an expense item on that HOA income statement. I realize this is a nuance that is sort of nit-picky for folks like us who understand how all this stuff actually works - and I've made similar comments myself in the past - but I've seen many discussions over the years where it's been a source of confusion for some people. So, when we are talking about the developer themselves, I would suggest that it's more technically accurate to state our point like this:

They have a reliable revenue stream in management fees...


----------



## ski_sierra

JIMinNC said:


> Also, remember the maintenance fee itself does not go to the developer, it goes to the resort HOA, which is a separate legal entity with a separate income statement. The monies we pay show up as revenue for the HOA, offset by the operating expenses, reserve expenses, and property taxes paid by the HOA to run to the resort. The only money that actually goes to a developer like Marriott Vacations Worldwide, and into their reportable revenue, is the management fee they charge each HOA, and which shows up as an expense to the HOA.
> 
> The expenses of operating the resort are disclosed every year to all owners, so the maintenance fee can't be increased without a corresponding demonstration of a rise in operating expenses. And at least for Marriott, the management fee they charge the HOA is set at a defined % of expenses. Their fee gets to go up as expenses go up, so there is really no strong incentive to keep fees low, but the requirements to disclose a budget and justify increases to the owners does serve to make it hard for them to arbitrarily increase fees to whatever the market might bear. It still has to be based on the costs of operating the resort.



yes. I made the short form claim for maintenance fees going to the developer. They do end up going to them indirectly through the HOA. Since they make a % off the total, I don't see any incentive for them to keep fees low. But since they also own units until they are sold as points/weeks, they have some incentive to keep the fees low. Otherwise why wouldn't they increase the MF as much as possible so they can get get a bigger revenue?


----------



## JIMinNC

JIMinNC said:


> I think we would all be well served to try to avoid implying that a developer like Marriott Vacations Worldwide has a "revenue stream in maintenance fees." As I know you are well aware, the maintenance fees themselves actually go to the HOA, and show up on the HOA income statement. The reliable revenue stream to MVW actually comes from the management fee that shows up as an expense item on that HOA income statement. I realize this is a nuance that is sort of nit-picky for folks like us who understand how all this stuff actually works - and I've made similar comments myself in the past - but I've seen many discussions over the years where it's been a source of confusion for some people. So, when we are talking about the developer themselves, I would suggest that it's more technically accurate to state our point like this:
> 
> They have a reliable revenue stream in management fees...





ski_sierra said:


> yes. I made the short form claim for maintenance fees going to the developer. They do end up going to them indirectly through the HOA. Since they make a % off the total, I don't see any incentive for them to keep fees low. But since they also own units until they are sold as points/weeks, they have some incentive to keep the fees low. Otherwise why wouldn't they increase the MF as much as possible so they can get get a bigger revenue?



ski_sierra makes a good point, so I will offer one clarification...I believe the maintenance fees collected do actually appear on Marriott Vacations Worldwide's corporate income statement, since there is a large income line item on the 10-K "Cost Reimbursements" ($925 Million in 2018, second only to Sales Revenue), but the key is, that Revenue line is *directly and exactly* offset by an expense item also called "Cost Reimbursements" ($925 Million also in 2018). The 10-K defines "Cost Reimbursements" as:

_Cost reimbursements include direct and indirect costs that are reimbursed to us by customers under management contracts. All costs, with the exception of taxes assessed by a governmental authority, reimbursed to us by customers are reported on a gross basis. We recognize cost reimbursements when we incur the related reimbursable costs. Cost reimbursements consist of actual expenses with no added margin._

I interpret these offsetting revenue/expense line items as the Maintenance fees collected on behalf of the HOAs by MVW Corporate and the expenses paid out on behalf of the HOAs. So, while the Management Fee is the only component of maintenance fees that *truly* flows to the bottom line of MVW, it's probably incorrect on my part to imply that the maintenance fees are totally independent of the MVW income statement - they may be there, but only on a pass-thru basis since MVW handles the collection of fees and disbursements to vendors.

Here is some additional color on that topic, also from the 10-K:

We provide day-to-day-management services, including housekeeping services, operation of reservation systems, maintenance and certain accounting and administrative services for property owners’ associations, condominium owners and hotels.

We generate revenue from fees we earn for managing vacation ownership resorts, clubs, owners’ associations, condominiums and hotels. In our Vacation Ownership segment, these fees are earned regardless of usage or occupancy and are typically based on either a percentage of the budgeted costs to operate the resorts or a fixed fee arrangement (“VO management fee revenues”). ... In addition, we receive reimbursement of costs incurred on behalf of our customers, which consist of actual expenses with no added margin (“cost reimbursements”). Vacation Ownership segment cost reimbursements revenues exclude amounts that we have paid to the property owners’ associations related to maintenance fees for unsold vacation ownership products, as we have concluded that such payments are consideration payable to a customer.


----------



## bizaro86

ski_sierra said:


> yes. I made the short form claim for maintenance fees going to the developer. They do end up going to them indirectly through the HOA. Since they make a % off the total, I don't see any incentive for them to keep fees low. But since they also own units until they are sold as points/weeks, they have some incentive to keep the fees low. Otherwise why wouldn't they increase the MF as much as possible so they can get get a bigger revenue?



Higher MF makes it harder to sell new units. The history of timesharing shows this motivation very clearly. In every single developer operated project I'm aware of, fees have increased by materially more than inflation in the first years after sellout. There are a few reasons for this - the MF are generally initially subsidized by the developer to ease sales. There are also tricks to reduce MF initially (commonly used by whole ownership condos as well) such as initially underfunding reserves. I also believe (but cannot prove) that many of the developer controlled management companies begin to take liberties over time with their HOAs (by purchasing supplies and services from related parties, for example). 

The use of a trust changes this dynamic. Because the MVC trust will never sell out, they don't really subsidize it initially. They also have more of an incentive to keep the MF low over time, because the ability to sell more points is vastly more valuable than the ability to raise management revenue. I hadn't thought of it until now, but that is actually a potentially good reason to buy trust points. I suspect they will endeavor to keep the MF low, maybe moreso than other developers. That said, I would say HGVC has the best record for keeping MF reasonable among the hotel developers so far.


----------



## 4Sunsets

bizaro86 said:


> Because the MVC trust will never sell out, they don't really subsidize it initially. They also have more of an incentive to keep the MF low over time, because the ability to sell more points is vastly more valuable than the ability to raise management revenue. I hadn't thought of it until now, but that is actually a potentially good reason to buy trust points. I suspect they will endeavor to keep the MF low, maybe moreso than other developers. That said, I would say HGVC has the best record for keeping MF reasonable among the hotel developers so far.



Trust points in MVC have always been more expensive than week points comparatively, and with the increases trust points are in many cases substantially more. It's unfortunate, because MVC wants us all to buy into points but they make the points #1 so expensive compared to the weeks previous to points #2 make the MF higher than with weeks points and #3 make it practically impossible to resell your points and get any value back.

I agree on HGVC, so far it seems at most resorts, HGVC has. There are exceptions, however, where MF is very high.


----------



## dioxide45

JIMinNC said:


> I think we would all be well served to try to avoid implying that a developer like Marriott Vacations Worldwide has a "revenue stream in maintenance fees." As I know you are well aware, the maintenance fees themselves actually go to the HOA, and show up on the HOA income statement. The reliable revenue stream to MVW actually comes from the management fee that shows up as an expense item on that HOA income statement. I realize this is a nuance that is sort of nit-picky for folks like us who understand how all this stuff actually works - and I've made similar comments myself in the past - but I've seen many discussions over the years where it's been a source of confusion for some people. So, when we are talking about the developer themselves, I would suggest that it's more technically accurate to state our point like this:
> 
> They have a reliable revenue stream in management fees...


Thanks for pointing this out. That is what I meant to say and missed typed it. I know better.


----------



## ski_sierra

@GregT @JIMinNC @dioxide45 @bizaro86 Thanks for indulging me. I realize that my questions were off topic for this thread. I might start a different thread for more questions.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

bizaro86 said:


> I think housekeeping/services are better at Vistana than MVC. My success rate at getting in by check-in time has been better.
> 
> Also, MVC doesn't have a midweek cleaning as a brand standard, which really should be the minimum for an upscale property imo. I believe all Vistana/HGVC properties do this, and even my silver crown independent  does.



Just a data point. We are at HGVC Elara this weekend which is across the street from the MVC Grand Chateau. Although we are only here 4 nights with no midweek clean, they told us that we can call for towel changes and garbage pick up daily if desired with no extra fee. We requested today and they delivered within 15 minutes and came into the room to collect garbage which IMO is more upscale than having to leave outside door or putting in a trash dumpster yourself. MF here runs several hundred dollars lower than Grand Chateau

We stayed at Grand Chateau in March. Very nice and offered family activities. Elara doesn't have activities. Would rather pay for housekeeping/towel and trash than activities because this is Vegas with plenty to do.


----------



## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> Honestly, IMHO there are very few Vistana properties that are Marriott caliber. Not a big fan of Marriott right now because of MF. However, Vistana? Not much there outside of the Hawaii locations.
> 
> Vistana owners are getting a great deal if they can get into Marriott's system. Marriott owners are NOT getting a good deal by the integration of Vistana properties. Marriott should have sold the weeds off.



According to Marriott, these are the Vistana "weeds": 4 category 7, 11 category 6 and only 4 category 5 resorts.

The question is: would the Marriott owners be better off if , theoretically speaking, Vistana was owned by HGVC instead? I think that we all know the answer.


----------



## mjm1

DannyTS said:


> According to Marriott, these are the Vistana "weeds": 4 category 7, 11 category 6 and only 4 category 5 resorts.
> 
> The question is: would the Marriott owners be better off if , theoretically speaking, Vistana was owned by HGVC instead? I think that we all know the answer to that.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12253



Thanks for sharing the list. What category is Harborside at Atlantis? I couldn’t find it on Marriott.com.

Is Marriott is saying theses are “weeds” or is someone on TUG saying that from their own perspective. Either way I would disagree.

Best regards.

Mike


----------



## DannyTS

mjm1 said:


> Is Marriott is saying theses are “weeds” or is someone on TUG saying that from their own perspective. Either way I would disagree.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


 it was a comment made previously by 4Sunsets on Tug, see the top of my previous comment.


----------



## SteelerGal

mjm1 said:


> Thanks for sharing the list. What category is Harborside at Atlantis? I couldn’t find it on Marriott.com.
> 
> Is Marriott is saying theses are “weeds” or is someone on TUG saying that from their own perspective. Either way I would disagree.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


Interesting that Maui dropped 10k.


----------



## tschwa2

mjm1 said:


> Thanks for sharing the list. What category is Harborside at Atlantis? I couldn’t find it on Marriott.com.
> 
> Is Marriott is saying theses are “weeds” or is someone on TUG saying that from their own perspective. Either way I would disagree.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


Harborside is not part of Marriott hotels as far as I can tell.  You can book the other sections of Atlantis through Marriott.com and it is considered autograph collection but Harborside is not part of that.


----------



## controller1

DannyTS said:


> According to Marriott, these are the Vistana "weeds": 4 category 7, 11 category 6 and only 4 category 5 resorts.
> 
> The question is: would the Marriott owners be better off if , theoretically speaking, Vistana was owned by HGVC instead? I think that we all know the answer.
> 
> 
> View attachment 12253



A reminder that Marriott does not attach Category numbers to the properties based on quality (such as a AAA or Michelin rating) but instead the categories are assigned based on the popularity of award reservations for the property.


----------



## bizaro86

controller1 said:


> A reminder that Marriott does not attach Category numbers to the properties based on quality (such as a AAA or Michelin rating) but instead the categories are assigned based on the popularity of award reservations for the property.



Are you sure that's how it works? When Starwood was independent, categories were set based on ADR (average daily rate). I would guess marriott does something similar, because they have to pay the hotel's for the rooms, and "popularity" will be less important to the hotel owners than money.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> Are you sure that's how it works? When Starwood was independent, categories were set based on ADR (average daily rate). I would guess marriott does something similar, because they have to pay the hotel's for the rooms, and "popularity" will be less important to the hotel owners than money.


The way that @controller1 mentioned is how Marriott allocated categories prior to their merger with Starwood. Do they still do it that way now after the merger? I am not sure.


----------



## controller1

controller1 said:


> A reminder that Marriott does not attach Category numbers to the properties based on quality (such as a AAA or Michelin rating) but instead the categories are assigned based on the popularity of award reservations for the property.





bizaro86 said:


> Are you sure that's how it works? When Starwood was independent, categories were set based on ADR (average daily rate). I would guess marriott does something similar, because they have to pay the hotel's for the rooms, and "popularity" will be less important to the hotel owners than money.





dioxide45 said:


> The way that @controller1 mentioned is how Marriott allocated categories prior to their merger with Starwood. Do they still do it that way now after the merger? I am not sure.



According to the company reps on FlyerTalk, Marriott still utilizes award utilization for determining a property's Award Category.


----------



## bizaro86

controller1 said:


> According to the company reps on FlyerTalk, Marriott still utilizes award utilization for determining a property's Award Category.



Interesting. That is very different than how Starwood did it. It seems to me that should result in hotels in business cities being systemically underpriced compared to resort properties where more people will want to redeem.


----------



## controller1

bizaro86 said:


> Interesting. That is very different than how Starwood did it. It seems to me that should result in hotels in business cities being systemically underpriced compared to resort properties where more people will want to redeem.



Yes, it is very different than using ADR.


----------



## bobpark56

4Sunsets said:


> Honestly, IMHO there are very few Vistana properties that are Marriott caliber. Not a big fan of Marriott right now because of MF. However, Vistana? Not much there outside of the Hawaii locations.
> 
> Vistana owners are getting a great deal if they can get into Marriott's system. Marriott owners are NOT getting a good deal by the integration of Vistana properties. Marriott should have sold the weeds off.


To each his own. We have 4 Westin/Starwood ownerships and one Marriott ownership. We stay in our Westin ownerships (Lagunamar & St John), we trade our Marriott ownership, usually into another Marriott. We have been doing this for more than 10 years and have yet to see a discernible difference in unit or resort quality. Indeed, we have yet to trade one of our Westin ownerships for a Marriott unit. So I beg to differ with your view of Westin/Vistana.


----------



## vacationtime1

bobpark56 said:


> To each his own. We have 4 Westin/Starwood ownerships and one Marriott ownership. We stay in our Westin ownerships (Lagunamar & St John), we trade our Marriott ownership, usually into another Marriott. We have been doing this for more than 10 years and have yet to see a discernible difference in unit or resort quality. Indeed, we have yet to trade one of our Westin ownerships for a Marriott unit. So I beg to differ with your view of Westin/Vistana.



+1

We own five Westins and two Marriotts.  I see no overall difference in quality between the Westins we have stayed at (Ka'anapali, Kierland, Princeville, Lakeside Terrace (Vail), Nanea, Cancun) vs. the Marriotts we have visited (Newport Coast, Maui, Wailokoa, Waiohai, Kauai Beach Club, Timberlodge).  We prefer the decor at the Westins, but that is not a deal point.  For that matter, the two Hyatts we have visited (Tahoe and Carmel) are also of the same high caliber.

Some of the Sheratons on the east coast may be laggards, but based on the low number of destination points required to reserve them, the older Marriotts at Hilton Head and Orlando must also suffer by comparison.

Marriott is a good system, but it is not in a class by itself -- not even close.


----------



## Henry M.

I also like the Westins. I traded with an owner at the Marriott Waiohai, and enjoyed it, but din't find it better than the Westin Princeville. The Poipu location is nice, but the property itself is just comparable, not better, for my taste. It is also the only place where I've ever had something stolen at the beach.

I own at WKORV and WKORVN, and enjoy those locations better than being on Ka'anapali Beach proper, due to the amount of people there. When I bought my first WKORV pre-construction, I considered Marriott, but at the time they only had the hotel conversion units which weren't even close to the Westin. I also like the reef in front of the Westin property. The new Marriott towers are a similar category, and so is the Hyatt. I considered a Hyatt unit, but didn't like the fixed week concept, with no lock-off. I can't always go on a fixed week. I also own at the Westin in St. John, and prefer that island over St. Thomas. I've been to Palm Springs and Kierland too, and really liked the properties there too. Lagunamar is a very nice property too. I have not visited any Orlando locations.

The only thing I like about the Marriott system is the couple of European locations, but I haven't exchanged into them yet. I like the Hyatt locations and properties, but the fixed weeks are an issue for me.

Overall, I think all three brands are pretty nice. I've staked my choice on Westins, but could see staying at the other brands. However, I don't see how Westin could be viewed as any lower quality than Marriott or Hyatt.

Lately, I've been renting my units and going the VRBO route when I want to go elsewhere. Maui ownership is easy to rent for more than the maintenance fees, and VRBO/HomeAway gives me many more options at locations that don't have timeshares, like many European cities. Maui is still my favorite place, though, with Westin locations at the top of my list.


----------



## GregT

All,

I think 4Sunsets is just jerking our chain. It’s an odd series of posts, I’m just happy with my Marriotts and my Vistanas (and my HGVCs)!   All are good properties and happy to visit any of them. 

Best,

Greg


----------



## 4Sunsets

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I think 4Sunsets is just jerking our chain. It’s an odd series of posts, I’m just happy with my Marriotts and my Vistanas (and my HGVCs)!   All are good properties and happy to visit any of them.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Westin's haven't really impressed me or any in my family. That said, not a one of us is happy with Marriott at all since the merger. Especially the nonsense related to Suite Nights. It's so wonderful (sarcasm) to be LTP/LTT for a decade and now have to jump through hoops to get benefits we used to get w/o having to jump through hoops. Marriott ruined the whole system by basically making everyone platinum and then deciding that to get upgrades to suites we now have to once again stay XYZ number of nights a year. Not to mention all the other perks taken away. Most of my family (and everyone I know) is switching their loyalty to Hilton. Diamond status is $450 a year w tons of perks on the Aspire card and we don't have to jump through hoops and cast wishes to the heavens.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

4Sunsets said:


> Westin's haven't really impressed me or any in my family. That said, not a one of us is happy with Marriott at all since the merger. Especially the nonsense related to Suite Nights. It's so wonderful (sarcasm) to be LTP/LTT for a decade and now have to jump through hoops to get benefits we used to get w/o having to jump through hoops. Marriott ruined the whole system by basically making everyone platinum and then deciding that to get upgrades to suites we now have to once again stay XYZ number of nights a year. Not to mention all the other perks taken away. Most of my family (and everyone I know) is switching their loyalty to Hilton. Diamond status is $450 a year w tons of perks on the Aspire card and we don't have to jump through hoops and cast wishes to the heavens.



It seems like Marriott is always finding ways to Bonvoy its customers. Although Hilton is not perfect, they seem to do a better job trying to keep their customers satisfied and are not always devaluing at every opportunity nor doing something on the condition that the customer must spend more money. 

I have to call in a room award cancellation today and am nervous that all my points return to my Marriott account. Never have that concern with Hilton.


----------



## Ken555

CalGalTraveler said:


> It seems like Marriott is always finding ways to Bonvoy its customers. Although Hilton is not perfect, they seem to do a better job trying to keep their customers satisfied and are not always devaluing at every opportunity nor doing something on the condition that the customer must spend more money.
> 
> I have to call in a room award cancellation today and am nervous that all my points return to my Marriott account. Never have that concern with Hilton.



I’ve canceled and changed multiple Marriott reservations using points since the beginning of this year and it immediately credits correctly to my account, which is not what I could say about Starwood. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555

4Sunsets said:


> Westin's haven't really impressed me or any in my family. That said, not a one of us is happy with Marriott at all since the merger. Especially the nonsense related to Suite Nights. It's so wonderful (sarcasm) to be LTP/LTT for a decade and now have to jump through hoops to get benefits we used to get w/o having to jump through hoops. Marriott ruined the whole system by basically making everyone platinum and then deciding that to get upgrades to suites we now have to once again stay XYZ number of nights a year. Not to mention all the other perks taken away. Most of my family (and everyone I know) is switching their loyalty to Hilton. Diamond status is $450 a year w tons of perks on the Aspire card and we don't have to jump through hoops and cast wishes to the heavens.



Are your complaints about the hotels (as your post seems to indicate now) or the timeshare resorts? Obviously, and as discussed ad nauseam, the system has been diluted.

I certainly can’t agree with you re the timeshares...Westin is consistently better than Marriott in almost every respect. As previously mentioned in another post, Marriott’s do not have consistent standards throughout all resorts which is not true with Westin. And, of course, there are feature differences, such as the studio/small 1-bed being full service with kitchen and laundry vs a hotel room with Marriott.

In any case, you should visit those resorts that appeal to you. Have fun!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 4Sunsets

Ken555 said:


> Are your complaints about the hotels (as your post seems to indicate now) or the timeshare resorts? Obviously, and as discussed ad nauseam, the system has been diluted.
> 
> I certainly can’t agree with you re the timeshares...Westin is consistently better than Marriott in almost every respect. As previously mentioned in another post, Marriott’s do not have consistent standards throughout all resorts which is not true with Westin. And, of course, there are feature differences, such as the studio/small 1-bed being full service with kitchen and laundry vs a hotel room with Marriott.
> 
> In any case, you should visit those resorts that appeal to you. Have fun!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



With regard to Westin, I agree to disagree. Westin hotels have vastly differing standards of quality. Westin TS have greatly differeing standards of quality. 

But an even bigger problem with Westin: they haven't been maintained well the past few years especially with the pending sale, shuffling of ownership. There's a lot of neglect and Marriott is going to have to spend shovel fulls of $$$ to catch up.


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## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> With regard to Westin, I agree to disagree. Westin hotels have vastly differing standards of quality. Westin TS have greatly differeing standards of quality.
> 
> But an even bigger problem with Westin: especially with the pending sale, shuffling of ownership. There's a lot of neglect and Marriott is going to have to spend shovel fulls of $$$ to catch up.



What bothers me about your comments is that I doubt they come from an extensive travel experience with the Westin timeshare resorts. You provide absolutely no details concerning the Westin timeshares that you visited and why you consider them to be inferior to the Marriott's in similar locations. You also provide no evidence for statements like "they haven't been maintained well the past few years" as if you had stayed _several _times at all 22 resorts (some of which are actually brand new!) and you could assess the recent degree of "neglect". 


Even if you were right and the Westin resorts needed some upgrades, I doubt that Marriott would be turned off by a short term inconvenience since they have a long term vision with this company.


----------



## Ken555

4Sunsets said:


> With regard to Westin, I agree to disagree. Westin hotels have vastly differing standards of quality. Westin TS have greatly differeing standards of quality.
> 
> But an even bigger problem with Westin: they haven't been maintained well the past few years especially with the pending sale, shuffling of ownership. There's a lot of neglect and Marriott is going to have to spend shovel fulls of $$$ to catch up.



Please list specific examples. I have seen none of the issues you maintain, and I visit several Westin timeshares every year. On the flip side, I see issues with Marriott’s...and I also stay at their properties every year...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 4Sunsets

DannyTS said:


> What bothers me about your comments is that I doubt they come from an extensive travel experience with the Westin timeshare resorts. You provide absolutely no details concerning the Westin timeshares that you visited and why you consider them to be inferior to the Marriott's in similar locations. You also provide no evidence for statements like "they haven't been maintained well the past few years" as if you had stayed _several _times at all 22 resorts (some of which are actually brand new!) and you could assess the recent degree of "neglect".
> 
> 
> Even if you were right and the Westin resorts needed some upgrades, I doubt that Marriott would be turned off by a short term inconvenience since they have a long term vision with this company.



LOL been traveling for decades. You guys are hilarious how you try to discredit anyone who disagrees with you.


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## 4Sunsets

Ken555 said:


> Please list specific examples. I have seen none of the issues you maintain, and I visit several Westin timeshares every year. On the flip side, I see issues with Marriott’s...and I also stay at their properties every year...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



RIght back at you. Please *DO* list ALL examples of Westin's superbness in the TSs. Can't wait to read, should be laugh out loud funny.


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## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> LOL been traveling for decades.


this does not tell much, except your age, you cannot be under 20.


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## jabberwocky

Maybe we should get this thread back on track? What started out as speculation on potential integration and increased options for owners is quickly devolving into a debate about the quality of the resorts.


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## dioxide45

4Sunsets said:


> RIght back at you. Please *DO* list ALL examples of Westin's superbness in the TSs. Can't wait to read, should be laugh out loud funny.


You are still failing to cite specific examples as requested...


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## CalGalTraveler

The hotel side is where I see the most variation of quality. But that's not specific to Westin. I have stayed at Hyatts, Doubletree,  Marriott's and Westins in sore need of reno. I actually see the timeshares as more consistent in quality.


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## Ken555

4Sunsets said:


> RIght back at you. Please *DO* list ALL examples of Westin's superbness in the TSs. Can't wait to read, should be laugh out loud funny.



You’re a troll. You made an unsupported accusation and when called upon to provide examples, you simply escalate with personal attacks. It’s time for you to leave or be civil and provide detail. You complain about us not giving you credit but you haven’t done anything to justify our respect.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## vacationtime1

4Sunsets said:


> RIght back at you. Please *DO* list ALL examples of Westin's superbness in the TSs. Can't wait to read, should be laugh out loud funny.



Read my post #244.  I gave you a dozen examples, mostly at places I have visited on multiple occasions.

Please give us specific evidence to the contrary.  And remind us how many of those places you actually visited --  and when.

Unless and until you do, I'm with Ken; you're a troll.


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## vacationtime1

4Sunsets said:


> LOL been traveling for decades. *You guys are hilarious how you try to discredit anyone who disagrees with you*.



Actually, I think we have been remarkably polite to someone who repeatedly expresses an opinion that he cannot or will not support.

Probably because TUG has lots of midwesterners and Canadians.


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## youppi

It's may be possible to be unlucky and each time you exchange to a Marriott's or Westin as a non owner of those brands you get a bad room (not renovated, bad view, bad smell, ...) and to be at the resort at the worst time (end of its cycle before renovation, pool close for renovation, ...).

Example, my first exchange to a Marriott's resort was very bad (room and resort not renovated, pool close for renovation, bad view, disgusting smell every where inside the resort building except in my room, ...). 
If I have never re-exchanged to a Marriott's or if I was unlucky like the first time I exchanged to Marriott's, I would have no good words to say about Marriott's.

My first exchange to a Westin was better than to my first Marriott's. My impression was nice room (size, decoration) and resort ground but I got a bad view ground floor room with mold smell and they did do anything and refuse to move us to another room.

I never got a bad experience with Royal, Hyatt, Diamond Resort, Hilton, Wyndham, Shell Vacation, Disney, Vacation Village, Sheraton, ... but I got one bad experience at each Marriott's and Westin.

If I would have been unlucky each time I exchanged to Marriott's and Westin resorts like my first time at each of them then Marriott's and Westin would be far behind the other brands but it's not the case.


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## 4Sunsets

youppi said:


> It's may be possible to be unlucky and each time you exchange to a Marriott's or Westin as a non owner of those brands you get a bad room (not renovated, bad view, bad smell, ...) and to be at the resort at the worst time (end of its cycle before renovation, pool close for renovation, ...).
> 
> Example, my first exchange to a Marriott's resort was very bad (room and resort not renovated, pool close for renovation, bad view, disgusting smell every where inside the resort building except in my room, ...).
> If I have never re-exchanged to a Marriott's or if I was unlucky like the first time I exchanged to Marriott's, I would have no good words to say about Marriott's.
> 
> My first exchange to a Westin was better than to my first Marriott's. My impression was nice room (size, decoration) and resort ground but I got a bad view ground floor room with mold smell and they did do anything and refuse to move us to another room.
> 
> I never got a bad experience with Royal, Hyatt, Diamond Resort, Hilton, Wyndham, Shell Vacation, Disney, Vacation Village, Sheraton, ... but I got one bad experience at each Marriott's and Westin.
> 
> If I would have been unlucky each time I exchanged to Marriott's and Westin resorts like my first time at each of them then Marriott's and Westin would be far behind the other brands but it's not the case.



Hard to say, we have many friends who own Westin. Much distress about the limbo they've been in.


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## 4Sunsets

vacationtime1 said:


> Actually, I think we have been remarkably polite to someone who repeatedly expresses an opinion that he cannot or will not support.
> 
> Probably because TUG has lots of midwesterners and Canadians.



You may consider yourself polite. However, you've been rude repeatedly. Trying to discredit everyone who voices an opinion other than yours is disgraceful. You can agree to disagree. Offer counterpoints, etc. but you don't have to make statement that try to discredit those with opposing views. Stick with the facts, voice a counter opinion w/o being a troll.


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## 4Sunsets

vacationtime1 said:


> Unless and until you do, I'm with Ken; you're a troll.



Well, ain't that the pot calling the kettle black. The troll saying others are a troll, just another attempt at discrediting anyone who disagrees w you.

Please stick w the facts, voice a counter opinion and move on.


----------



## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> Well, ain't that the pot calling the kettle black. The troll saying others are a troll, just another attempt at discrediting anyone who disagrees w you.
> 
> Please stick w the facts, voice a counter opinion and move on.


At this point, I do not know whether it is worth responding any more to your comments but here you go. TUGbbs is an online community that aims to help others with information about timeshares and hopefully we can do that while having fun at the same time. Most if not all people who posted in this thread are pretty active on TUG and have contributed quite a bit with their time and energy. Not exactly the definition of a social media troll.

Because so many are very active contributors, we kind of know whom to trust or not. And I would add that the vast majority of the TUG members are very trustworthy. It is your option going forward to sit on one bench or the other.


----------



## 4Sunsets

DannyTS said:


> At this point, I do not know whether it is worth responding any more to your comments but here you go. TUGbbs is an online community that aims to help others with information about timeshares and hopefully we can do that while having fun at the same time. Most if not all people who posted in this thread are pretty active on TUG and have contributed quite a bit with their time and energy. Not exactly the definition of a social media troll.
> 
> Because so many are very active contributors, we kind of know whom to trust or not. And I would add that the vast majority of the TUG members are very trustworthy. It is your option going forward to sit on one bench or the other.



Several people here are very dismissive of others who have differing opinions. I'm not the one who started calling others troll, I was called troll by these people, etc. After multiple rudenesses and unkindnesses, I begin to respond in kind. It seems to be the only language they understand.

I don't need to prove what I do or don't know, no more or less than anyone else. I don't really care if they've been on here 3 years or 3 days, they don't need to be rude, dismissive and I certainly don't need to prove anything to them or anyone.

I've encountered a few know-it-alls in my time but few as close-minded, shallow or reprehensible. I really don't care if they are lawyers or whatever in their day jobs, doesn't give them license to be jerks.

Make a point, counterpoint, move on. If you disagree, you don't need to try to discredit, attack, or dismiss as a troll, whatever. Again, make a point or counterpoint and move on.


----------



## bizaro86

4Sunsets said:


> RIght back at you. Please *DO* list ALL examples of Westin's superbness in the TSs. Can't wait to read, should be laugh out loud funny.



The small sides of Westin TS are way better than the MVC equivalents. Many have a full bedroom, and essentially all have a great kitchen and a full laundry. MVC not so much. That makes the small side of a Westin TS much more viable for standalone use.

Westin has midweek cleaning at all their resorts. MVC has midweek cleaning at a few.

IMO those are two huge differences. MVC has more locations, but I would say the Westin locations are more consistently premium. (No Branson/Orlando over built type areas) and some are Westin spots are positively unique - WSJ, Harborside, the only hotel branded properties in Mexico. MVC has great locations too of course, including many where Westin isn't represented (Aruba, east coast beaches, ko-Olina, etc). 

But to say Westin has no advantages over MVC is shortsighted at best and disingenuous at worst.

I've stayed in both many times and haven't noticed any difference in upkeep. I do like the decor of Westin resorts better (more modern style) but that is largely personal preference


----------



## 4Sunsets

bizaro86 said:


> But to say Westin has no advantages over MVC is shortsighted at best and disingenuous at worst.



This is NOT something that was said.


----------



## bizaro86

4Sunsets said:


> RIght back at you. Please *DO* list ALL examples of Westin's superbness in the TSs. Can't wait to read, should be laugh out loud funny.



If you didn't mean this to imply that there weren't accurate and specific places where Westin is better than MVC than I apologize.

I do think however that I interpreted this statement reasonably.


----------



## 4Sunsets

bizaro86 said:


> The small sides of Westin TS are way better than the MVC equivalents. Many have a full bedroom, and essentially all have a great kitchen and a full laundry. MVC not so much. That makes the small side of a Westin TS much more viable for standalone use.
> 
> Westin has midweek cleaning at all their resorts. MVC has midweek cleaning at a few.
> 
> IMO those are two huge differences. MVC has more locations, but I would say the Westin locations are more consistently premium. (No Branson/Orlando over built type areas) and some are Westin spots are positively unique - WSJ, Harborside, the only hotel branded properties in Mexico. MVC has great locations too of course, including many where Westin isn't represented (Aruba, east coast beaches, ko-Olina, etc).
> 
> But to say Westin has no advantages over MVC is shortsighted at best and disingenuous at worst.
> 
> I've stayed in both many times and haven't noticed any difference in upkeep. I do like the decor of Westin resorts better (more modern style) but that is largely personal preference



These are good points of issue. MVC has *significantly* more locations than Westin AND a significant number of those are high-end, quality locations. When matching the best locations of each, I still prefer MVC and would not consider Westin more premium. I have many friends who live in Hawaii/Oauhu/Maui/Kauai who own both. I own multiple Maui weeks and my friends who own Westin are always envious of the Maui towers.

As far as upkeep, as my friends who live on Maui have witnessed, Westin properties have fallen a bit behind in all the ownership changes. Marriott WILL have to spend to catch that up.

As an example of decor comparison, I would not consider the Westin Maui properties to have better/more modern decor than that Maui towers which are comparable and (IMHO better).

It's also important to point out that Westin has more recently built property on Maui, newer doesn't necessarily make it better. That said, WN is a nice property. It's newer than the rest and nicely appointed.

Regarding cleaning service, MVC has significantly more properties that offer a wide range of services. ALL Hawaii/Kaui/Maui/Oahu properties provide mid/full.

Westin has a relative few properties as compared to MVC. MVC offers a wide range, with a significant number of high-end, quality properties. MVC also has mid-tier properties, and yes, some in the popular tourist areas.

Regarding Westin Mexico TS, I wouldn't stay in those if I was paid. Wouldn't let family stay either, unless and until Mexico resolves the mess its in w regard to crime, etc.


----------



## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> Regarding Westin Mexico TS, I wouldn't stay in those if I was paid. Wouldn't let family stay either, unless and until Mexico resolves the mess its in w regard to crime, etc.



I bet that more people have been killed in your city than American tourists in Mexico. 

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/murder-mexico-whats-danger-american-tourist


----------



## bizaro86

4Sunsets said:


> Regarding cleaning service, MVC has significantly more properties that offer a wide range of services. ALL Hawaii/Kaui/Maui/Oahu properties provide mid/full.
> .



All MVC properties in Hawaii (and a few others internationally iirc) offer a midweek cleaning.

All Westin properties everywhere offer a midweek cleaning.

I can't see how that is a net-benefit to MVC over Westin.


----------



## bizaro86

DannyTS said:


> I bet that more people have been killed in your city than American tourists in Mexico.
> 
> https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/murder-mexico-whats-danger-american-tourist



IIRC, there are more deaths by gun violence per capita in the USA than mexico. 

Canada has less than a quarter as many gun violence deaths per capita as the US. 

If you're willing to live in the US, then the risk of violence in any other first or second world country is almost certainly less. 

Quick source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

This isn't really Westin/MVC related, but I definitely have experienced more corruption as a foreign tourist in the USA vs Mexico, and I spend a comparable amount of time each year in both countries.


----------



## mav

On another note , has  Starwood and Marriott been integrated so that we can add our rewards # to our reservations? In other words, is the conf. # a number that Marriott would recognize?


----------



## 4Sunsets

bizaro86 said:


> All MVC properties in Hawaii (and a few others internationally iirc) offer a midweek cleaning.
> 
> All Westin properties everywhere offer a midweek cleaning.
> 
> I can't see how that is a net-benefit to MVC over Westin.



MVC has more properties and more properties that offer this service. If you want to tally, MVC also has many properties w daily cleaning as well, which is included in fees as well.

Over all, I think of Westin as a subset of MVC. The benefits of Westin over MVC prior to the merger, however? Honestly, don't think there was any.

Westin was/is a boutique brand with ~12/14 TS. MVC has ~65 (I'm not a bean counter, so approx). Meaning MVC has 5X the properties.

Only a subset of the MVC are what I would call mid-tier, the rest are what I would consider high-quality comparable to Westins.

MVC also has luxury (RC and such) which are a higher quality. (Supreme and much higher in quality than any Westin).

Like I said, I do like the WN in Maui. I think it's a nice location. But I hope Marriott resolves the issues with resort being in or out of the system for various things.


----------



## 4Sunsets

bizaro86 said:


> IIRC, there are more deaths by gun violence per capita in the USA than mexico.
> 
> Canada has less than a quarter as many gun violence deaths per capita as the US.
> 
> If you're willing to live in the US, then the risk of violence in any other first or second world country is almost certainly less.
> 
> Quick source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
> 
> This isn't really Westin/MVC related, but I definitely have experienced more corruption as a foreign tourist in the USA vs Mexico, and I spend a comparable amount of time each year in both countries.



A bit off topic but okay with me. The issue w Mexico is the runaway corruption, the massive issues with the drug war, etc. Not specific to gun violence over all. It's runaway, and widespread. Mexico has issues w quality control (bad alcohol stuff like that) as well, etc

But I think we can certainly agree to disagree here. Mexico not for me/my fam, but acceptable for you/yours.


----------



## WahooWah

I know two people who recently returned from trips to Mexico and they both got sick.  One of them was staying at the Montage in Cabo.


----------



## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> A bit off topic but okay with me. The issue w Mexico is the runaway corruption, the massive issues with the drug war, etc. Not specific to gun violence over all. It's runaway, and widespread. Mexico has issues w quality control (bad alcohol stuff like that) as well, etc
> 
> But I think we can certainly agree to disagree here. Mexico not for me/my fam, but acceptable for you/yours.


I encourage you to go to tripadviser and check the thousands of reviews about Westin Lagunamar. Read what people who have actually been there think about safety.


----------



## DannyTS

WahooWah said:


> I know two people who recently returned from trips to Mexico and they both got sick.  One of them was staying at the Montage in Cabo.


My wife got sick in DC


----------



## GregT

All,

I try to avoid responding to provocative posts when I believe people are not posting in good faith/collaboratively and I suspect are simply jerking my/our chain.  I’ve felt that way about our new contributor 4Sunsets since early on. Heavy on opinion and hearsay and light on data, and written in a manner to provoke controversy.  To my new TUG colleague, 4Sunsets, if you’re not a troll, your style (respectfully) feels like one.

But 4Sunsets raises some interesting points - and forces a conversation that we should consider, however inelegantly it has been presented.

If we look at TUG ratings, there are 33 Marriott properties rated 8.75 or better (50% of the total portfolio?).  There are 8 Vistana properties (50% of the portfolio?) that rate 8.75 or better.   Marriott has two properties rated below 8, Vistana didn’t have any.

But Marriott has many properties rated 9.25 or higher and Vistana doesn’t.  That’s what struck me.  Why wouldn’t Vistana have more, especially considering the caliber of WPORV/WKORV/WSJ?  I would rate them comparably to my beloved MOC.

Do we not post about our amazing experiences?   Is Vistana slipping?  Are the Marriott properties really better?  Or do the happy owners just post more?

I continue to think, all Sky is Falling posts aside, that this merger is a win for both parties.   I would be really bummed if Wyndham had bought Vistana - owning Worldmark reminds me what a fee-driven/owner unfriendly corporate owner does.  I’ve never felt that way about my Marriott’s (or Vistana or HGVC).

I will still be happy to visit any of the Vistana or Marriott elite properties but I tend to avoid the older Marriott properties, because they lack some of the upscale features I really like (and pay for).  Maybe I would feel the same way if I visited the older Vistana properties....

Sorry for the random thoughts, I appreciate thoughtful commentary and replies.  Thank you.

Best,

Greg


----------



## 4Sunsets

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I try to avoid responding to provocative posts when I believe people are not posting in good faith/collaboratively and I suspect are simply jerking my/our chain.  I’ve felt that way about our new contributor 4Sunsets since early on. Heavy on opinion and hearsay and light on data, and written in a manner to provoke controversy.  To my new TUG colleague, 4Sunsets, if you’re not a troll, your style (respectfully) feels like one.
> 
> But 4Sunsets raises some interesting points - and forces a conversation that we should consider, however inelegantly it has been presented.
> 
> If we look at TUG ratings, there are 33 Marriott properties rated 8.75 or better (50% of the total portfolio?).  There are 8 Vistana properties (50% of the portfolio?) that rate 8.75 or better.   Marriott has two properties rated below 8, Vistana didn’t have any.
> 
> But Marriott has many properties rated 9.25 or higher and Vistana doesn’t.  That’s what struck me.  Why wouldn’t Vistana have more, especially considering the caliber of WPORV/WKORV/WSJ?  I would rate them comparably to my beloved MOC.
> 
> Do we not post about our amazing experiences?   Is Vistana slipping?  Are the Marriott properties really better?  Or do the happy owners just post more?
> 
> I continue to think, all Sky is Falling posts aside, that this merger is a win for both parties.   I would be really bummed if Wyndham had bought Vistana - owning Worldmark reminds me what a fee-driven/owner unfriendly corporate owner does.  I’ve never felt that way about my Marriott’s (or Vistana or HGVC).
> 
> I will still be happy to visit any of the Vistana or Marriott elite, but I tend to avoid the older Marriott properties, because they lack some of the upscale features I really like (and pay for).  Maybe I would feel the same way if I visited the older the Vistana properties....
> 
> Sorry for the random thoughts, I appreciate thoughtful commentary and replies.  Thank you.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Greg partially agreed w me


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## DannyTS

Integration or not, I think you have the right  to never visit any Westin resorts if you do not want to . What I find interesting is that you just bough HGVC, you claim, as an addition to the Marriott resorts you own. No weeds in that network, just the Westins?


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## CalGalTraveler

The worst timeshare stay we have ever had was at Marriott Ko Olina.

We were on a promotional stay.

* even though we had requested early check in our room was not ready - but even worse, after sending us to the pool to wait, the room was not ready past checkin time by more than 3 hours.

 * They told us they would text us when room was ready. They never texted us. We have never had this happen with Hilton.

*After we waited in the long checkin line to check on the status twice, they finally gave us the room at about 7pm. No explanation about the delay. No apology.

* when we got to the room the carpet was soaking as if someone had gotten sick on the carpet  and they had to shampoo. The room smelled musty.

* *Our room had several cockroaches*. The staff did not respond for more than 2 hours to the problem.

* This was one of the worst rooms on the bottom floor of NAIA overlooking the parking lot.

* when we asked to be moved,  all they could offer was one of the ground floor rooms behind the slide - noisy and dark. A worse room.

* we then were notified that the entire floor has to be fumigated so we had to evacuate twice. Once for our room only and then for a day for the entire floor. This was a serious inconvenience. This was peak summer. Why didnt they take care of this prior to the busy season? Again no apologies or empathy.

* the staff seemed lackadaisical, unempowered  and uninterested in solving our problem. Like going through the motions.

* The lanai and table were filthy and we had to clean

* the furnishings were meh

* after all of this the sales rep during the preso had the audacity to state, "You got a great rate on your room." We paid $800 for 3 nights - hardly a killer deal given all the crap and not being able to use the room for half of it. Not a great way to put us in the mood to buy.

Lastly Ko Olina is on the flight path to HNL so planes constantly flying over the resort. Detracts from tropical paradise feel.

I never bothered to file a Tug review but my rating would pull down the average.

With that said, the pools and lagoon were lovely. Would only go back if we could have a higher floor OV room and they have built the Atlantis resort next door.


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## GregT

CalGalTraveler said:


> I never bothered to file a Tug review but my rating would pull down the average.



That is a very very interesting observation -- makes me wonder how often a bad experience is not posted on a property.  Ko Olina is notorious for having low floor bad rooms -- similar to Building 4 at WKORV or the parking lot views at Waiohai.  Ko Olina also has a wonky angle so there are some really bad Ocean View rooms (and some amazing Mountain View rooms).  

Contrast that with WKORV/N where I don't think there are any bad rooms (but maybe there are and I just haven't seen them yet). 

Interesting stuff -- sorry to hear about your Ko Olina experience -- it really is a wonderful property and I hope you give it a second chance (especially since I speculate that you will be able to trade in with StarOptions.......)!

Best,

Greg


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## Ken555

GregT said:


> That is a very very interesting observation -- makes me wonder how often a bad experience is not posted on a property.



FWIW, I don’t post reviews for every resort I visit. In fact, I have only posted a small percentage of all the resorts I have visited. This might be worthy of a separate thread, and perhaps we can suggest ways to make it easier and more convenient to post reviews in order to encourage more involvement, etc. 



> Contrast that with WKORV/N where I don't think there are any bad rooms (but maybe there are and I just haven't seen them yet).



Bad rooms can be defined many different ways. The previous post has several issues...in my opinion, the worst is that it was not clean as expected and had several interruptions for additional cleaning. View is routinely considered of high importance, but I would suggest it’s not as important as cleanliness and quality of materials, and I think we generally assume that to be a given so focus on the subjective, such as view. 

WKORV-N certainly has bad views, and I’ve had them. But they may not be bad for everyone. And they are always compared to the possible parking lot view at WKORV in building 4 (while each of the few times I’ve stayed in building 4 I have had good views). WKORV also has low level 1-bed units (not part of a LO) that have almost zero view, or a view of the trash. I believe David posted pics from one of these units some years ago.

There are other aspects that make a unit or a resort bad. It’s been mentioned earlier several times that Nanea is a nice resort. I had numerous issues with it, including having to be moved not because of a bad room or poor view, but the incessant irritation and annoyance of the shuttle van beeping that can be heard even within the unit with the windows closed and air conditioning on. 

I suspect every resort has a bad room or ten. My recent review of SKR is an example of what can go wrong in other ways.

Even so, I think it’s absurd to consider Westin subpar to Marriott resorts. I’ve stayed at nice and poor Marriotts, and they are nice or poor for different reasons. 

I’ve stayed at many Marriotts in exchange, and none have provided even a mid-week tidy cleaning, though it seems some Marriotts do or perhaps only do for owners (why is there such a lack of conformity at Marriott?). 

Years ago I stayed at the oldest Marriott timeshare in Orlando and while it was maintained, it was not only old but appeared old...old structure, old bathrooms, not as current as even the oldest Vistana resort etc. Perhaps they thought they didn’t need to do more since, after all, it’s Orlando. Hopefully they’ve renovated since I was there. 

I’ve stayed at most of the Palm Springs area Marriotts and while I would not hesitate to return, they were not excellent. They, and the Canyon Villas in Phoenix, seem to share a similar nice, but not great, building quality. I’m not talking about style, which obviously is very subjective, but actual building material quality. Each time I’ve stayed at Canyon Villas I thought the structures would not last. Why is Kierland, Mission Hills, and even SDO better in this regard? It’s not that they couldn’t do better, but they didn’t. I suspect it’s just a way to save cost. On a very minor point, I also thought the same at every Marriott I visited in regards to kitchen appliances and equipment. It’s not that Westin is so much better, but it is noticeably different as compared to Marriott. 

When I evaluated which network to purchase, I recall thinking at first that I wanted Marriott since they had a larger network of resorts and the hotels, which was all I knew, I considered mostly similar to Westin/Sheraton. After spending time at several resorts, talking to sales and owners, and reading TUG, I quickly learned that Westin, in essence, was everything Marriott but a little bit better. For example, many resorts have a full small 1-bed with laundry vs a hotel room (which Marriott incorrectly calls a studio) as the lock off unit. I have no hesitation staying in a studio in Hawaii at Westin when traveling with only one other, yet I would be unhappy in a hotel room for a week at a Marriott. 

I think the best Marriott timeshare I’ve stayed at is Custom House in Boston. I’ve been there twice, and look forward to visiting again. But it’s an atypical Marriott timeshare, only has 1-bed units, no kitchen (a small sink, a microwave, and a dorm room refrigerator), and though I had to take two elevators to get to the laundry I did not think that detracted from the resort as I would in almost any other setting. It’s definitely unique, and yet it’s a Marriott. 

As for other Marriotts, I think the best I’ve stayed at that would be more representative of the network would be Timber Lodge. 

I’m also quite critical of Vistana resorts, as I think we all should be. Just read my recent review of SKR for an example. We want all these resorts to be better.

Regardless, comparing Marriott to Westin or Sheraton in terms of which is better for the company seems somewhat foolish to me. This topic was created by a troll to create discord and when confronted finally started including some, but very few, details as to justify the reasons for her strong, and in my opinion baseless, opinion. I think we do ourselves a disservice by trying to make Marriott or Westin worse in our view, when we should instead focus on specific resorts, how they failed and what options may be available to make our next visit better. 

I have reservations at ~10 different Marriott hotel chains in the next year that I would not have had pre merger. I expect I’ll like some and be unhappy with others. I’m also hopeful to visit other Marriott timeshares, and I won’t let my opinion that they are likely to be inferior in any way as compared to Westin stop me from having a good time. 





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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, I don’t post reviews for every resort I visit. In fact, I have only posted a small percentage of all the resorts I have visited. This might be worthy of a separate thread, and perhaps we can suggest ways to make it easier and more convenient to post reviews in order to encourage more involvement, etc.


@TUGBrian had a thread in the About the Rest of TUG forum on this very subject.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...eview-of-your-last-timeshare-vacation.280674/


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## GregT

Ken555 said:


> FWIW, I don’t post reviews for every resort I visit. In fact, I have only posted a small percentage of all the resorts I have visited. This might be worthy of a separate thread, and perhaps we can suggest ways to make it easier and more convenient to post reviews in order to encourage more involvement, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Bad rooms can be defined many different ways. The previous post has several issues...in my opinion, the worst is that it was not clean as expected and had several interruptions for additional cleaning. View is routinely considered of high importance, but I would suggest it’s not as important as cleanliness and quality of materials, and I think we generally assume that to be a given so focus on the subjective, such as view.
> 
> WKORV-N certainly has bad views, and I’ve had them. But they may not be bad for everyone. And they are always compared to the possible parking lot view at WKORV in building 4 (while each of the few times I’ve stayed in building 4 I have had good views). WKORV also has low level 1-bed units (not part of a LO) that have almost zero view, or a view of the trash. I believe David posted pics from one of these units some years ago.
> 
> There are other aspects that make a unit or a resort bad. It’s been mentioned earlier several times that Nanea is a nice resort. I had numerous issues with it, including having to be moved not because of a bad room or poor view, but the incessant irritation and annoyance of the shuttle van beeping that can be heard even within the unit with the windows closed and air conditioning on.
> 
> I suspect every resort has a bad room or ten. My recent review of SKR is an example of what can go wrong in other ways.
> 
> Even so, I think it’s absurd to consider Westin subpar to Marriott resorts. I’ve stayed at nice and poor Marriotts, and they are nice or poor for different reasons.
> 
> I’ve stayed at many Marriotts in exchange, and none have provided even a mid-week tidy cleaning, though it seems some Marriotts do or perhaps only do for owners (why is there such a lack of conformity at Marriott?).
> 
> Years ago I stayed at the oldest Marriott timeshare in Orlando and while it was maintained, it was not only old but appeared old...old structure, old bathrooms, not as current as even the oldest Vistana resort etc. Perhaps they thought they didn’t need to do more since, after all, it’s Orlando. Hopefully they’ve renovated since I was there.
> 
> I’ve stayed at most of the Palm Springs area Marriotts and while I would not hesitate to return, they were not excellent. They, and the Canyon Villas in Phoenix, seem to share a similar nice, but not great, building quality. I’m not talking about style, which obviously is very subjective, but actual building material quality. Each time I’ve stayed at Canyon Villas I thought the structures would not last. Why is Kierland, Mission Hills, and even SDO better in this regard? It’s not that they couldn’t do better, but they didn’t. I suspect it’s just a way to save cost. On a very minor point, I also thought the same at every Marriott I visited in regards to kitchen appliances and equipment. It’s not that Westin is so much better, but it is noticeably different as compared to Marriott.
> 
> When I evaluated which network to purchase, I recall thinking at first that I wanted Marriott since they had a larger network of resorts and the hotels, which was all I knew, I considered mostly similar to Westin/Sheraton. After spending time at several resorts, talking to sales and owners, and reading TUG, I quickly learned that Westin, in essence, was everything Marriott but a little bit better. For example, many resorts have a full small 1-bed with laundry vs a hotel room (which Marriott incorrectly calls a studio) as the lock off unit. I have no hesitation staying in a studio in Hawaii at Westin when traveling with only one other, yet I would be unhappy in a hotel room for a week at a Marriott.
> 
> I think the best Marriott timeshare I’ve stayed at is Custom House in Boston. I’ve been there twice, and look forward to visiting again. But it’s an atypical Marriott timeshare, only has 1-bed units, no kitchen (a small sink, a microwave, and a dorm room refrigerator), and though I had to take two elevators to get to the laundry I did not think that detracted from the resort as I would in almost any other setting. It’s definitely unique, and yet it’s a Marriott.
> 
> As for other Marriotts, I think the best I’ve stayed at that would be more representative of the network would be Timber Lodge.
> 
> I’m also quite critical of Vistana resorts, as I think we all should be. Just read my recent review of SKR for an example. We want all these resorts to be better.
> 
> Regardless, comparing Marriott to Westin or Sheraton in terms of which is better for the company seems somewhat foolish to me. This topic was created by a troll to create discord and when confronted finally started including some, but very few, details as to justify the reasons for her strong, and in my opinion baseless, opinion. I think we do ourselves a disservice by trying to make Marriott or Westin worse in our view, when we should instead focus on specific resorts, how they failed and what options may be available to make our next visit better.
> 
> I have reservations at ~10 different Marriott hotel chains in the next year that I would not have had pre merger. I expect I’ll like some and be unhappy with others. I’m also hopeful to visit other Marriott timeshares, and I won’t let my opinion that they are likely to be inferior in any way as compared to Westin stop me from having a good time.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Ken, this is a really good post -- very thoughtful, constructive and honest.  I agree with your comments on Canyon Villas and Shadow Ridge -- both appear to be mass produced timeshares where I wake up and --boom -- there are 000's of units with little creativity (Canyon Villas is actually smaller, but feels the same).  Some of the Orlando properties have the same feel -- just huge timeshares, and they are what they are.    I've not been to Kierland and will look forward to visiting it.

I also rarely post a rating and I should.  I absolutely loved WPORV and WKORV/N -- fabulous properties.   HRA was amazing, but the property showed the wear and tear -- just like Marriott Aruba Ocean Club did -- I remember posting on this somewhere and wondering if this was a Caribbean thing.

We will see -- but thanks again for your post and your candor.

A curiosity -- if an Overlay was introduced similar to what we have speculated (either enroll your Vistana week and get Marriott points, OR get a fixed number of Marriott Points in exchange for your StarOptions), how many Vistana owners would want to enroll?

I know there's many unknowns, but assume that you can get almost like for like -- (Marriott did invent skimming after all) -- perhaps you can get 4,250 Marriott DC Points for your 148,100 StarOptions?  That's enough for a 2BR in Aruba or St. Thomas (but not enough for a 2BR in Hawaii).

Would you enroll your week in the Marriott system, and decide each year whether you wanted to keep it as a Starwood week (or elect the Marriott points)?

Best,

Greg


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## Ken555

GregT said:


> Ken, this is a really good post -- very thoughtful, constructive and honest.  I agree with your comments on Canyon Villas and Shadow Ridge -- both appear to be mass produced timeshares where I wake up and --boom -- there are 000's of units with little creativity (Canyon Villas is actually smaller, but feels the same).  Some of the Orlando properties have the same feel -- just huge timeshares, and they are what they are.    I've not been to Kierland and will look forward to visiting it.
> 
> I also rarely post a rating and I should.  I absolutely loved WPORV and WKORV/N -- fabulous properties.   HRA was amazing, but the property showed the wear and tear -- just like Marriott Aruba Ocean Club did -- I remember posting on this somewhere and wondering if this was a Caribbean thing.
> 
> We will see -- but thanks again for your post and your candor.
> 
> A curiosity -- if an Overlay was introduced similar to what we have speculated (either enroll your Vistana week and get Marriott points, OR get a fixed number of Marriott Points in exchange for your StarOptions), how many Vistana owners would want to enroll?
> 
> I know there's many unknowns, but assume that you can get almost like for like -- (Marriott did invent skimming after all) -- perhaps you can get 4,250 Marriott DC Points for your 148,100 StarOptions?  That's enough for a 2BR in Aruba or St. Thomas (but not enough for a 2BR in Hawaii).
> 
> Would you enroll your week in the Marriott system, and decide each year whether you wanted to keep it as a Starwood week (or elect the Marriott points)?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Thanks.

I see absolutely no reason to pay to convert my weeks into something else, unless there is a definitive advantage. The only metric I use is the number of nights per year I obtain for each week. If I can get the same, or more, by converting then I would be tempted. But really...I’m very happy with Westin and really don’t see any reason to do anything with my 148k week. My two SDOs, on the other hand, I use as traders so if I can add them to the network and, again, get the same or more nights (14, since I always deposit each 1-bed separately) I would be tempted. 

Oh, and if it was an expensive conversion I’ll just start laughing. I’m doing just fine with II and VSN and unless that’s going to change, no reason to spend any $$$.


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## GregT

Ken555 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I see absolutely no reason to pay to convert my weeks into something else, unless there is a definitive advantage. The only metric I use is the number of nights per year I obtain for each week. If I can get the same, or more, by converting then I would be tempted. But really...I’m very happy with Westin and really don’t see any reason to do anything with my 148k week. My two SDOs, on the other hand, I use as traders so if I can add them to the network and, again, get the same or more nights (14, since I always deposit each 1-bed separately) I would be tempted.
> 
> Oh, and if it was an expensive conversion I’ll just start laughing. I’m doing just fine with II and VSN and unless that’s going to change, no reason to spend any $$$.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Ken,

I think the primary advantage will be your ability to rent Marriott points -- I know I wish I could rent StarOptions, but I can't.  Granted, availability is a crapshoot, but it would be cool to have 81,000 StarOptions and then rent 148,100 from another owner, and then rent a matching 2BR (or have 67K StarOptions, and then rent 14K to book a 1BR).   Starwood doesn't allow rentals but Marriott does.   It's perhaps my favorite thing about the Marriott system.

I will be curious when an overlay is rolled out.   I'm speculating that initial rollout is XX,XXX Staroptions is worth X,XXX Marriott points.    It will be cool if I can rent X,XXX Marriott points, and then book a Starwood week (subject to availability).

Which is the rub....availability.  I expect Marriott will respect the 8 month rule, meaning we will still be looking for what what is available from a StarOptions perspective.  It will be better if Vistana owners are enticed to enroll their weeks and make them available allowing reservations earlier than 8 months -- from the enrolled weeks only.  Inventory availability remains an interesting challenge for this system.  Thanks again for your thoughts.

Best,

Greg


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## Ken555

GregT said:


> Ken,
> 
> I think the primary advantage will be your ability to rent Marriott points -- I know I wish I could rent StarOptions, but I can't.  Granted, availability is a crapshoot, but it would be cool to have 81,000 StarOptions and then rent 148,100 from another owner, and then rent a matching 2BR (or have 67K StarOptions, and then rent 14K to book a 1BR).   Starwood doesn't allow rentals but Marriott does.   It's perhaps my favorite thing about the Marriott system.
> 
> I will be curious when an overlay is rolled out.   I'm speculating that initial rollout is XX,XXX Staroptions is worth X,XXX Marriott points.    It will be cool if I can rent X,XXX Marriott points, and then book a Starwood week (subject to availability).
> 
> Which is the rub....availability.  I expect Marriott will respect the 8 month rule, meaning we will still be looking for what what is available from a StarOptions perspective.  It will be better if Vistana owners are enticed to enroll their weeks and make them available allowing reservations earlier than 8 months -- from the enrolled weeks only.  Inventory availability remains an interesting challenge for this system.  Thanks again for your thoughts.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



As we have posted for years, there are many ways this could develop. I’m not really interested in spending too much time on this until we know what they do, which is why I didn’t contribute much earlier in this thread. However, on the surface renting doesn’t appeal to me though I’m always open to consider options. Keep in mind I’m one of those who have been quite happy with my StarOptions. In the last few years I’ve been using my 148k week to get ~21-23 nights each year in studio or 1-bed units, and using my SDO weeks to exchange with II or SFX (SFX hasn’t really been good for me so far and is much more time intensive than II since successful transactions require phone calls, so I’m not sure I’m going to do it again). As I’ve posted over the years, if I wanted more time at the Vistana timeshares I’d likely just buy another WKV 148k week but so far one of those weeks has been the right amount for me.

My main concern about renting is cost, and there’s no doubt that Marriott would need to make something for the ability to rent and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a cost on each transaction as well. What are the current fees for renting Marriott points, how easy is it for you to acquire those rental points, and what is your per night MF/rental cost for those reservations?


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## GregT

Ken,

Current I rent points to/from other owners for about $0.60 per point.  Marriott doesn’t charge anything for the transfer itself, it is (currently) a free service.  A St Thomas 2BR is 4,125 points in prime season so I can rent points from another owner for $2,400 and then reserve the week.  

You’ve certainly made the most of your StarOptions, I like the 20-23 nights from your existing ownership.   

We will see - but thanks for your comments. 

Best,

Greg


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## Ken555

GregT said:


> Ken,
> 
> Current I rent points to/from other owners for about $0.60 per point.  Marriott doesn’t charge anything for the transfer itself, it is (currently) a free service.  A St Thomas 2BR is 4,125 points in prime season so I can rent points from another owner for $2,400 and then reserve the week.
> 
> You’ve certainly made the most of your StarOptions, I like the 20-23 nights from your existing ownership.
> 
> We will see - but thanks for your comments.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Just checked my records...this year it’s 25 nights. Last year was similar. Historically I was at about 18-22, but my usage shifted and now am able to get more. I like that flexibility.

FWIW, I wouldn’t normally pay $2400 for a 2-bed unit for one week. I wouldn’t be going to Hawaii as often as I do if I didn’t have the low per night costs from my WKV week. Since 2005 (when I bought my first timeshare week) I have not rented a week at a timeshare outside of II getaway weeks or TUG last minute opportunities. I’ve helped friends and family with weeks at various timeshares, and I think the most one paid was more than $2400 but it was a 3-bed Maui week. This program isn’t made for me, and I’m not their target market. 

However, there are times when I might avail myself of the ability to rent my StarOptions. For instance, next year my schedule is already packed with trips, and none of them currently use my SOs. I’ve been giving some thought to banking next years SO (which I only did once before, and it was convenient). If I had the ability to rent my SOs for $2400 (assuming my 148k SOs is roughly equivalent to the points needed for a 2-bed unit in St Thomas, using your example) then I would definitely consider that instead. So yes, I am interested...but not in renting points myself, but rather in renting my points to others. 

Thanks for the example.


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## CalGalTraveler

I agree with @Ken555. The point of my Ko Olina post was that there can be poor experiences at every major hotel branded timeshare (Marriott, Vistana, HGVC). The opposite is also true. So painting one is better than the other the other is irrelevant. Overall I see them all as equivalent with variations in experience between properties and within properties.

I could probably go back to Ko Olina with an OV and have a great time (however the staff's "I don't care" attitude will be the same at this resort, but the experience may be completely different at MOC.) Perhaps I am jaded in comparing but when I visit HGVC West 57 NYC and Lagoon Tower/Grand Waikikian, the staff makes us feels welcome like we are coming home (and we are not owners at Lagoon Tower).


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## grgs

GregT said:


> A curiosity -- if an Overlay was introduced similar to what we have speculated (either enroll your Vistana week and get Marriott points, OR get a fixed number of Marriott Points in exchange for your StarOptions), how many Vistana owners would want to enroll?



It would depend on the cost and terms.  If the cost is similar to what was offered to Marriott owners in 2010, then I think I would be interested.  It's always nice to have options, and I can see staying outside of the Vistana network from time to time.  I also recall how upset many Marriott owners were by the skim, but it seems to me that most who elected to pay the fee and enroll their weeks have been satisfied.  I recall threads from Marriott owners who enrolled and didn't think they would ever convert to DC, but something would come up and converting ended up being a useful option.  This post from Doug is an example:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/to-enroll-or-not-your-thoughts.168738/#post-1275877

The deal breaker for me would be if they want the deeds to my weeks.  It's hard for me to envision a scenario where I'd be willing to give them up.  Especially Kierland. 

Glorian


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## bizaro86

I only own voluntary Vistana weeks, and would definitely enroll them in MVC if offered the opportunity to do so at some reasonable price (say $2500 for both?), if the points allotment was at leaat in the ballpark. Vistana tends to want $20k in new purchases to enroll in SVN, which is a non starter for me.

If I owned a WKV I wouldn't pay more than $0, because I doubt the resulting usage would be more advantageous than staroptions, and WKV is already very rentable.


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## DannyTS

grgs said:


> It would depend on the cost and terms.  If the cost is similar to what was offered to Marriott owners in 2010, then I think I would be interested.  It's always nice to have options, and I can see staying outside of the Vistana network from time to time.  I also recall how upset many Marriott owners were by the skim, but it seems to me that most who elected to pay the fee and enroll their weeks have been satisfied.  I recall threads from Marriott owners who enrolled and didn't think they would ever convert to DC, but something would come up and converting ended up being a useful option.  This post from Doug is an example:
> 
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/to-enroll-or-not-your-thoughts.168738/#post-1275877
> 
> The deal breaker for me would be if they want the deeds to my weeks.  It's hard for me to envision a scenario where I'd be willing to give them up.  Especially Kierland.
> 
> Glorian


You are right, nobody wants to give them the deeds. I think that if they offer mass enrollment it may not be practical either if they have to deal with tens of thousands of deed transfers at the same time. A simple enrollment on the other hand does not require a lot of work, just to add details that they already have to the MVC system AND process the payments for the enrollment fees.


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## dioxide45

I don't expect them to require one to turn over their deeds in order to enroll. If they offer some type of enrollment, it will be like they did with the Marriott DC program. You don't sign over your deeds and you just elect points from one year to the next. I would expect an enrollment offer to be very attractive to those that own voluntary resale resorts. Perhaps not as much for those that own Mandatory or direct developer purchases.


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## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> I don't expect them to require one to turn over their deeds in order to enroll. If they offer some type of enrollment, it will be like they did with the Marriott DC program. You don't sign over your deeds and you just elect points from one year to the next. I would expect an enrollment offer to be very attractive to those that own voluntary resale resorts. Perhaps not as much for those that own Mandatory or direct developer purchases.


I am a bit surprised by your position that they may offer a better deal to the resale voluntary resorts, I would have thought it may be the other way around.


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## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> I am a bit surprised by your position that they may offer a better deal to the resale voluntary resorts, I would have thought it may be the other way around.


I would expect the voluntary resale owners to likely have to pay a higher enrollment fee, just like resale Marriott owners had to pay. But it will add a lot more flexibility to what they own compared to someone with SOs.


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## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> I would expect the voluntary resale owners to likely have to pay a higher enrollment fee, just like resale Marriott owners had to pay. But it will add a lot more flexibility to what they own compared to someone with SOs.


Now I understand, thank you for the clarification


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## Tucsonadventurer

dioxide45 said:


> I don't expect them to require one to turn over their deeds in order to enroll. If they offer some type of enrollment, it will be like they did with the Marriott DC program. You don't sign over your deeds and you just elect points from one year to the next. I would expect an enrollment offer to be very attractive to those that own voluntary resale resorts. Perhaps not as much for those that own Mandatory or direct developer purchases.


Why do you think they will differentiate between mandatory and voluntary with resale. I hope you are correct but I am expecting that Marriott will charge more for any resale units as they seem to dislike resale or at least discourage them.


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## dioxide45

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Why do you think they will differentiate between mandatory and voluntary with resale. I hope you are correct but I am expecting that Marriott will charge more for any resale units as they seem to dislike resale or at least discourage them.


I suspect mandatory resales will pay the same higher enrollment fees too.


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## DannyTS

I just hope the fee will be capped say after a second week and not multiplied by the total number of weeks owned


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## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> I just hope the fee will be capped say after a second week and not multiplied by the total number of weeks owned


That is how they did it for Marriott owners enrolling back in 2010. I suspect if they just integrate the programs, that is how they will do it.


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## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> I just hope the fee will be capped say after a second week and not multiplied by the total number of weeks owned



Quick! Go out and buy a few more...


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## vacationtime1

MVC _needs_ Vistana owners to enroll their weeks in the DC if they want to integrate the systems.  It especially needs weeks in the locations where MVC has no presence or not a strong one:  WSJ, Kierland, Princeville, etc.  The issue is how to incentivize the owners of those weeks to enroll and ultimately, to relinquish their weeks for points.

One must start with the realization that not all 148100 or 81000 StarOption properties were created equal (which has nothing to do with whether the properties are mandatory or voluntary).  Some properties are just better or just more popular -- and the number of DC points that will be required to reserve them will reflect that.  For example, a one bedroom platinum plus Kierland unit (81000 SO's) rents for about $2,350; a two bedroom at SVV Bella (also 81000 SO's) rents for less.  There is no internal reason for these two properties to remain equivalent in DC points; MVC gets to do a "re-do" on setting values in the process.

Here at TUG, we have taught each other how to arbitrage these kinds of discrepancies; we buy the SVV Bella unit and use it to reserve Princeville or Maui.  MVC cannot stop these internal StarOption exchanges except by buying up all of the inventory, persuading owners to turn in deeds for FlexOptions, _or by offering Princeville and Maui owners enough DC points so that if they elect points they can reserve at twelve months instead of the eight month SO window and in the process wipe out their availability for SO exchanges.._

I foresee MVC offering enrollment on terms similar to what it did in 2010.  Each property and each season will be offered a certain number of DC points which will be set on new criteria (rental value, MF's, scarcity value, etc.) and will hew closer to rental values rather than the current number of StarOptions.


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## Ken555

vacationtime1 said:


> MVC _needs_ Vistana owners to enroll their weeks in the DC if they want to integrate the systems.  It especially needs weeks in the locations where MVC has no presence or not a strong one:  WSJ, Kierland, Princeville, etc.  The issue is how to incentivize the owners of those weeks to enroll and ultimately, to relinquish their weeks for points.
> 
> One must start with the realization that not all 148100 or 81000 StarOption properties were created equal (which has nothing to do with whether the properties are mandatory or voluntary).  Some properties are just better or just more popular -- and the number of DC points that will be required to reserve them will reflect that.  For example, a one bedroom platinum plus Kierland unit (81000 SO's) rents for about $2,350; a two bedroom at SVV Bella (also 81000 SO's) rents for less.  There is no internal reason for these two properties to remain equivalent in DC points; MVC gets to do a "re-do" on setting values in the process.
> 
> Here at TUG, we have taught each other how to arbitrage these kinds of discrepancies; we buy the SVV Bella unit and use it to reserve Princeville or Maui.  MVC cannot stop these internal StarOption exchanges except by buying up all of the inventory, persuading owners to turn in deeds for FlexOptions, _or by offering Princeville and Maui owners enough DC points so that if they elect points they can reserve at twelve months instead of the eight month SO window and in the process wipe out their availability for SO exchanges.._
> 
> I foresee MVC offering enrollment on terms similar to what it did in 2010.  Each property and each season will be offered a certain number of DC points which will be set on new criteria (rental value, MF's, scarcity value, etc.) and will hew closer to rental values rather than the current number of StarOptions.



Yes, I understand this perspective. Similarly, since I can use my WKV to get an equal number of nights in Hawaii there’s absolutely no way I would exchange that capability to effectively get less in future, and pay for the privilege. In other words, it works both ways... 


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## vacationtime1

Ken555 said:


> Quick! Go out and buy a few more...



Yeah, and make them SDO true platinum units worth 148100 StarOptions -- if you think there will be a direct StarOption to DC point conversion (which I do not).

This makes me wonder by what date MVC will require ownership to have been established before being invited into the program.  MVC has stuck with the 6/10/2010 date consistently -- if you didn't own before then, you cannot enroll except for an exorbitant price.  Is it still possible to buy something not expensive on resale but likely to be awarded lots of DC points (think: Princeville)?


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## vacationtime1

Ken555 said:


> Yes, I understand this perspective. Similarly, since I can use my WKV to get an equal number of nights in Hawaii there’s absolutely no way I would exchange that capability to effectively get less in future, and pay for the privilege. In other words, it works both ways...



I agree completely.  And Kierland is an especially tough one for the integrators because it is mandatory, comes with lots of StarOptions, has low MF's, and rents well (at least Platinum + season does).  Unless MVC succeeds in sucking up enough of the Hawaii weeks via enrollment and point election such that we cannot do those StarOption exchanges any more.


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## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> Quick! Go out and buy a few more...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I am actually closing on a week right now but we bought it for other reasons. If they limit the resale weeks enrollment up to the official ILG purchase date (September 1st 2018?) we may not be able to enroll it at all which would suck but we knew it may be one of the scenarios before we bought it.


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## DannyTS

is it me or we are talking about the enrollment as if it was a fait accompli? Where do I have to sign for the enrollment lol?


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## DannyTS

vacationtime1 said:


> One must start with the realization that not all 148100 or 81000 StarOption properties were created equal (which has nothing to do with whether the properties are mandatory or voluntary). Some properties are just better or just more popular -- and the number of DC points that will be required to reserve them will reflect that. For example, a one bedroom platinum plus Kierland unit (81000 SO's) rents for about $2,350; a two bedroom at SVV Bella (also 81000 SO's) rents for less. There is no internal reason for these two properties to remain equivalent in DC points; MVC gets to do a "re-do" on setting values in the process..


this is a very possible scenario. At the same time, a lot of owners bought from the developer with the expectation of exchanging internally into one resort or another based on a points chart.. If they feel that their points get devalued overnight they may consider it a breach of contract. This would virtually create too many unhappy owners and  too few winners. IMO the only way to avoid that scenario is a set number of StarOptions per MVC point. Nobody can say they are not happy with that since this is what they signed into when they bought and this is the system they have used for many, many years.


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## Tucsonadventurer

vacationtime1 said:


> MVC _needs_ Vistana owners to enroll their weeks in the DC if they want to integrate the systems.  It especially needs weeks in the locations where MVC has no presence or not a strong one:  WSJ, Kierland, Princeville, etc.  The issue is how to incentivize the owners of those weeks to enroll and ultimately, to relinquish their weeks for points.
> 
> One must start with the realization that not all 148100 or 81000 StarOption properties were created equal (which has nothing to do with whether the properties are mandatory or voluntary).  Some properties are just better or just more popular -- and the number of DC points that will be required to reserve them will reflect that.  For example, a one bedroom platinum plus Kierland unit (81000 SO's) rents for about $2,350; a two bedroom at SVV Bella (also 81000 SO's) rents for less.  There is no internal reason for these two properties to remain equivalent in DC points; MVC gets to do a "re-do" on setting values in the process.
> 
> Here at TUG, we have taught each other how to arbitrage these kinds of discrepancies; we buy the SVV Bella unit and use it to reserve Princeville or Maui.  MVC cannot stop these internal StarOption exchanges except by buying up all of the inventory, persuading owners to turn in deeds for FlexOptions, _or by offering Princeville and Maui owners enough DC points so that if they elect points they can reserve at twelve months instead of the eight month SO window and in the process wipe out their availability for SO exchanges.._
> 
> I foresee MVC offering enrollment on terms similar to what it did in 2010.  Each property and each season will be offered a certain number of DC points which will be set on new criteria (rental value, MF's, scarcity value, etc.) and will hew closer to rental values rather than the current number of StarOptions.


Our Westin sales manager thought they would do baby steps and make changes gradually to lessen alienating their acquired owners. He predicted that assigning points to our Westin and Hyatt resorts would come down the road.


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## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> this is a very possible scenario. At the same time, a lot of owners bought from the developer with the expectation of exchanging internally into one resort or another based on a points chart.. If they feel that their points get devalued overnight they may consider it a breach of contract. This would virtually create too many unhappy owners and  too few winners. IMO the only way to avoid that scenario is a set number of StarOptions per MVC point. Nobody can say they are not happy with that since this is what they signed into when they bought and this is the system they have used for many, many years.


I don't expect them to remove the ability to use StarOptions to exchange between Vistana resorts. So owners won't lose that ability. However, if they want to go between the two systems, then the new conversion factor, likely with a skim, comes in to play. I would expect @vacationtime1 scenario over a set SO/DC point conversion, except in the situation of Home or FlexOptions.


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## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> I don't expect them to remove the ability to use StarOptions to exchange between Vistana resorts. So owners won't lose that ability. However, if they want to go between the two systems, then the new conversion factor, likely with a skim, comes in to play. I would expect @vacationtime1 scenario over a set SO/DC point conversion, except in the situation of Home or FlexOptions.


 If they give relatively more MVC points to say resorts A, B, C, the owners of those resorts will deposit mostly in MVC because they will perceive more value in that system for them. If that is the case, the availability with SO's will vanish at those 3 resorts. If somebody bought a certain resort from the developer with the intend to use the SO's at those 3 resorts he'd be out of luck completely. De facto, his SO's would become useless for him even if he can still theoretically use VSN.

But again, this may very well happen and I do not see any scenario where there will be no losers and only winners. The Lagunamar reps warned me that the VSN availability there will vanish once the 2 systems will be integrated. Their point was that it would happen because MVC does not have any Mexican resorts and because of the relative higher number of MVC owners.  Of course, this suited their narrative very well since they were selling Westin Aventuras.


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## GregT

DannyTS said:


> If they give relatively more MVC points to say resorts A, B, C, the owners of those resorts will deposit mostly in MVC because they will perceive more value in that system for them. If that is the case, the availability with SO's will vanish at those 3 resorts. If somebody bought a certain resort from the developer with the intend to use the SO's at those 3 resorts he'd be out of luck completely. De facto, his SO's would become useless for him even if he can still theoretically use VSN.
> 
> But again, this may very well happen and I do not see any scenario where there will be no losers and only winners. The Lagunamar reps warned me that the VSN availability there will vanish once the 2 systems will be integrated. Their point was that it would happen because MVC does not have any Mexican resorts and because of the relative higher number of MVC owners.  Of course, this suited their narrative very well since they were selling Westin Aventuras.


This was a fear when Marriott offered point premiums to the Hawaii properties and didn't fully value the Caribbean properties.   However, people have been able to still II trade (our only alternative since we didnt have StarOptions) into Hawaii properties -- it's uptrades that have been most effected (IMO).  I still believe StarOptions trading will be successful because there are a number of owners who don't want to hear anything from Marriott about the new system -- they are very close-minded.   Therefore, I still be able to expect to use StarOptions to access WPORV.  It will be interesting to see.

Marriott cares alot about not disenfranchising existing owners -- they don't want to take anything away.  Different Customer Advocacy representatives have used that exact word multiple times (and I've had alot of conversations with them).  So I expect StarOptions to stay, II preference to remain intact, and new options to be available (that people will have to pay for).  I expect there will be a skim element, because Marriott does want those Starwood owners to buy Trust Points.  

We will see -- interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


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## vacationtime1

All of the documentation makes it clear that Vistana can change the terms of VSN/VSE or even eliminate it, but I definitely agree with the others that it would be stupid for MVC to do either because many owners _would_ feel disenfranchised.  That said, subtly changing the game by siphoning off inventory or making trading more difficult is nothing new.

Remember the good old days of major bulk banks?  Remember when we could reserve a good week, deposit it into Interval, and get good trades?  Remember when there were no upgrade fees trading a one bedroom (or sometimes a studio) into a two bedroom?  

I am actually looking forward to the integration of the two systems, but I have no illusions that although there will be more places into which I can do internal trades, the possibilities for arbitrage will be diminished.


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## jjking42

Hate the skim and dropped Marriott when they did it. I would sell my star options and buy hgvc before I would agree to the join MVC with a skim unlesss they gave me enough dvc points to book Hawaii with my WKV.


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## ocdb8r

...glad to see this thread finally turning to the interesting discussion.

I agree with most of the discussion on an overlay thus far - Marriott has an enormous amount of flexibility to design whatever sort of overlay they'd like and given history, there's a high probability they'll design something to their advantage (skim, revaluation of property values...etc).

HOWEVER, there are a few differences compared to when they designed the DC program that I think we should all keep in mind:

1) When they designed the DC program there was no existing internal trading program so they largely had carte blanche in how they designed things.  While internal trading via II existed, the trade values and exchange ability was always very opaque.  While Marriott has a decent amount of latitude incorporating SVN units, I think there will be a greater deal of mental anchoring to values that makes it much more difficult for them to deviate substantially from SVN values if they really want substantial uptake.

2) I haven't heard any discussion about what we think MVC will sell in the future as it relates to SVN inventory.  I'm not interested enough to dig into the legal documents, but all of the current FLEX programs have been equally predicated on the existing SVN options chart.  This creates two problems for Marriott: 

a) none of the FLEX program owners own actual weeks so the only way to overlay them into the DC is to establish some sort of fixed conversion ratio; given (I think) every SVN resort has SOME inventory in one of the three FLEX trusts, I don't see how they could make that conversion ratio different for fixed week owners vs. FLEX points owners (I don't mean technically, I mean more feasibly...it would create such a complicated contrived system that they'd be shooting themselves in the foot operationally while also alienating many SVN owners).

b) I can't imagine MVC's end goal isn't to create a single portfolio that they can sell as far and wide as possible.  In other words, I imagine they'll want to get rid of the various FLEX programs and fold future inventory into the DC.  That again says to me they've got to create some sort of fixed conversion ratio from FLEX to DC to enable this shift.  Otherwise they're not going to get easy access to the FLEX inventory that hasn't yet been sold. 

None of this precludes Marriott from introducing some sort of "skim" which simply becomes a sort of "entrance fee" for utilizing the flexibility of the DC overlay, but I do think it makes it very difficult for Marriott to drastically change values of weeks within existing seasons and relative SVN values.


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## DannyTS

ocdb8r said:


> 2) I haven't heard any discussion about what we think MVC will sell in the future as it relates to SVN inventory.  I'm not interested enough to dig into the legal documents, but all of the current FLEX programs have been equally predicated on the existing SVN options chart.  This creates two problems for Marriott:
> 
> a) none of the FLEX program owners own actual weeks so the only way to overlay them into the DC is to establish some sort of fixed conversion ratio; given (I think) every SVN resort has SOME inventory in one of the three FLEX trusts, I don't see how they could make that conversion ratio different for fixed week owners vs. FLEX points owners (I don't mean technically, I mean more feasibly...it would create such a complicated contrived system that they'd be shooting themselves in the foot operationally while also alienating many SVN owners).
> 
> b) I can't imagine MVC's end goal isn't to create a single portfolio that they can sell as far and wide as possible.  In other words, I imagine they'll want to get rid of the various FLEX programs and fold future inventory into the DC.  That again says to me they've got to create some sort of fixed conversion ratio from FLEX to DC to enable this shift.  Otherwise they're not going to get easy access to the FLEX inventory that hasn't yet been sold.



to add to your excellent comment, say somebody owns SDO platinum 148100 SO's and a Flex contract with 148100 Flex Options. it is hard for me to see how they will assign a different number of DC points to these two contracts. I can also see a lot of upset owners who were pushed to give back their old deeds for flex "upgrades" only to see not that their old weeks might be assigned a higher number of points than the upgraded ownership.


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## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> to add to your excellent comment, say somebody owns SDO platinum 148100 SO's and a Flex contract with 148100 Flex Options. it is hard for me to see how they will assign a different number of DC points to these two contracts. I can also see a lot of upset owners who were pushed to give back their old deeds for flex "upgrades" only to see not that their old weeks might be assigned a higher number of points than the upgraded ownership.


Buy should that 148,000 SDO get the same number of points as the WKORV 148,100 SO week?


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## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> Buy should that 148,000 SDO get the same number of points as the WKORV 148,100 SO week?


So they getting the same number of StarOptions. Why is this not controversial NOW?


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## TravelTime

This thread has gone into mayhem. I am supportive as well as critical of all timeshares including Disney, Marriott, and Vistana, and I own them all. There are pros and cons to each one and there are also specific stays that can be good, bad or neutral. That does not cause me to categorically say any are better or worse, except when subjectively evaluating a certain personal experience based on a specific stay. I have been judgmental of them all but only for a specific instance in time. I will stay at any of them repeatedly and even Westin Lagunamar (LOL inside joke). I recognize we cannot have black and white thinking with timeshares or much else in life. At one point I hated all things Marriott until they updated my Presidential status after my upgrade last year. Now I love Marriott and MVC again. I love both points program and weeks programs for different reasons and I own both. I would love to see Tuggers able to share options and experiences without insulting other people. Perhaps we should include disclaimers on our opinions and communicate in a collaborative way so our comments are not offensive to our fellow Tuggers. I think this will be good for me since my comments have often been taken the wrong way.


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## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> So they getting the same number of StarOptions. Why is this not controversial NOW?


I think that is the problem with some of the imbalance in the Vistana system. When Marriott rolled out DC, they fixed many of the imbalances with how they allocated DC points. Thus why they have such a convoluted DC points chart for making reservations. When Marriott initially allocated points to a week, it was said it was based loosely on the last sales price of a week at that resort in that season divided by ten. If they go that same route, it is doubtful that a 148,100 at WKORVN last sold for the same price as a SDO 148,100 week.


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## TravelTime

Here's an interesting idea. I am hoping MVC will allow us to enroll a MVC week with a Vistana week. Not sure I am willing to pay much extra though.


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> I think that is the problem with some of the imbalance in the Vistana system. When Marriott rolled out DC, they fixed many of the imbalances with how they allocated DC points. Thus why they have such a convoluted DC points chart for making reservations. When Marriott initially allocated points to a week, it was said it was based loosely on the last sales price of a week at that resort in that season divided by ten. If they go that same route, it is doubtful that a 148,100 at WKORVN last sold for the same price as a SDO 148,100 week.



The only reason they were able to sell WKV and other resorts for the price that they did, even though it may have been less than the price of a week at WKORV, was because it had the ability to exchange internally for WKORV and other resorts without losing nights. I’m not sure why anyone thinks they should adjust this in favor of Hawaii weeks now, unless they own Hawaii... 


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## ocdb8r

dioxide45 said:


> I think that is the problem with some of the imbalance in the Vistana system. When Marriott rolled out DC, they fixed many of the imbalances with how they allocated DC points. Thus why they have such a convoluted DC points chart for making reservations. When Marriott initially allocated points to a week, it was said it was based loosely on the last sales price of a week at that resort in that season divided by ten. If they go that same route, it is doubtful that a 148,100 at WKORVN last sold for the same price as a SDO 148,100 week.



That's the thing - they didn't "fix" anything.  There was no existing internal trading system to "fix"; the only existing Marriott trading was all based on II (which was designed to deal with resorts from many different developers and was also opaque at best).  And, of course, those with Caribbean Marriott's would argue they actually created many imbalances with the new system.  Bottom line, when the Marriott DC rolled out there was no existing weighting of resorts and seasons as there already is with SVN.  It's also interesting to note that SVN has had the ability to adjust Options assigned to weeks for some time and has made very few (small) adjustments and in fact made the conscious decision to adjust how SDO was sold (they certainly could have continued to sell SDO as 1-52 with an overall blended SVN rate, but chose not to and instead bifurcated seasons and assigned 148k points to the platinum season).

All of the above is compounded by the other fact that not only have these values been ingrained in SVN (which effectively serves as an overlay itself to the true "weeks" system people originally deeded into) but are also now ingrained in the Flex programs where people are buying nothing but points.

Again, I'm not implying that Marriott doesn't have the technical ability to value Vistana resorts in the DC however they want (after all, they completely control the DC).  However, the more the deviate from the existing values, the more difficult they make their own lives (both administratively as well as from a customer satisfaction and sales perspective).

If I were Marriott, I'd look at the Vistana portfolio collectively and realize that the risk taken by creating a close to fixed rate for SVN options to translate to DC points is much lower than overly engineering the numbers.  What's the worst that could happen:


Certain resorts end up (slightly) over-valued on DC points compared to their Marriott counterparts (main contenders likely to be SDO, SVV, SVR perhaps SBP) - but this could be mitigated by arguing all these resorts have units that split into two 1-beds, justifying the points premium.


Certain resorts end up (slightly) under-valued on DC points compared to their Marriott counterparts (the biggest risk here is in Hawaii as given how Marriott seemingly shortchanged all their Caribbean resorts, I don't think Harborside or St. John would end up far out of step with the other Marriott resorts in the Caribbean) - I think this could be mitigated by explaining an overall blended rate was devised looking at the SVN portfolio as a whole and intimating that you'd rarely ever trade OUT of your WKORV/Nanea unit to trade back IN to a Marriott Hawaii unit.
Nether of these is ideal, but I think they avoid a whole slew of other problems an overly engineered assignment of DC points presents.


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## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> I think that is the problem with some of the imbalance in the Vistana system. When Marriott rolled out DC, they fixed many of the imbalances with how they allocated DC points. Thus why they have such a convoluted DC points chart for making reservations. When Marriott initially allocated points to a week, it was said it was based loosely on the last sales price of a week at that resort in that season divided by ten. If they go that same route, it is doubtful that a 148,100 at WKORVN last sold for the same price as a SDO 148,100 week.


right, but as @ocdb8r points out, there was no internal points exchange network in MVC at that time so they had to come up with a system. But in Vistana's case, people bought taking into consideration the  _existing _points chart and that includes of course both the SDO *and* the WKORVN owners.


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## DavidnRobin

They have adjusted SOs in the past.
WSJ-VGV (twice) and WKORV/N OF


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## DannyTS

DavidnRobin said:


> They have adjusted SOs in the past.
> WSJ-VGV (twice) and WKORV/N OF
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I counted correctly, there are currently 71 unique seasons/resorts on the Staroptions chart. So we have 3 changes in the last 10-15 years, this is actually telling something about how careful they have been to NOT change the chart.


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## ocdb8r

So, after my last post I thought I'd have a more in depth look at the Marriott DC points charts to see if I could eyeball how things might work out.  My takeaways:

1) What a complete disastrous mess is the DC chart!?!?  I remember looking into all of this when MVC first switched over, but it's been a long time.  I can't believe the complexity.  I applaud that it boils weeks down to much closer to their true value, but there must be SOME value in simplicity.  I have no idea how they "sell" to a completely novice buyer looking at DC points for the first time...the complexity would immediately turn me off and have me out the door in a minute.   My biggest takeaway is that despite some imbalances, I'd take the SVN system any day. 

2) The pain points for some sort of set exchange rate between SVN and DC points are pretty much as predicted.  An average rate applied across all SVN resorts results in Hawaii and Ski weeks undervalued compared to their Marriott counterparts, the deserts (both Arizona and CA) overvalued compared to their Marriott counterparts and Orlando and the Caribbean about on par with their Marriott counterparts.  There's no comparison in Mexico for Marriott, so no big issue there.  This is all with a big "approximately" caveat as Marriott DC has SO MANY more variations in season and even between resorts in the same area.   (Side note - SBP is actually somewhat shortchanged as not a single week there is valued at 148,100 StarOptions while Marriott does give relatively good value to their Myrtle Beach resort).  As mentioned, I think Marriott can (and should) overvalue the SVN desert resorts over their Marriott DC counterparts given the lock-off into two 1-beds...but not by much.  I would not be speculatively buying any of these resorts with the hope of retro-ing them into a DC program.

3) Not to argue against myself, but I have to acknowledge that Marriott has got quite a lot invested in a much more nuanced (contrived) system and that's likely to provide some counterbalance to any "anchoring" we as existing SVN owners might have.  It's clear to me the required DC points to trade back IN to our own resorts will look nothing like the simplicity of SVN.  This doesn't preclude Marriott from offering a set exchange rate for StarOptions into DC Points (after all, between skim and the re-setting of seasons, there was quite a bit of variance between what Marriott gave weeks owners and what the asked back from them in the DC system for the same week - trading back into your own resort never made any sense).

4) The DC points system is likely to benefit/appeal to me as someone who doesn't need to travel in TRUE peak season but prefers the shoulders of peak season.  The real pain is in peak seasons because SVN defined "Platinum Plus" seasons are relatively large.  In the more nuanced DC system, if I stick to shoulder peak (which are still Platinum Plus in most cases in SVN) even if we take a hit in value for DC points, I can probably still get a week in most locations.  And lets be honest, how many of us were successfully trading in to "event" weeks anyhow? It's even gotten fairly hard to get into the Hawaii resorts for most of the summer with StarOptions.  For some people, this could open up interesting options.  As usual, those needing to travel during school holidays and other true peak seasons are going to suffer the most.  I reiterate though - despite the fact a DC points type system might work for me (and even benefit me), I think I'd take the simplicity of SVN any day...


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## CalGalTraveler

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Why do you think they will differentiate between mandatory and voluntary with resale. I hope you are correct but I am expecting that Marriott will charge more for any resale units as they seem to dislike resale or at least discourage them.



Has MVC ever differentiated enrollment offers en masse based on resale vs. dev purchase?


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## ocdb8r

CalGalTraveler said:


> Has MVC ever differentiated enrollment offers en masse based on resale vs. dev purchase?



Points value - no (not that I recall).  Cost to enroll - yes (this is standard).


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## CalGalTraveler

ocdb8r said:


> Points value - no (not that I recall).  Cost to enroll - yes (this is standard).



Thanks for clarifying.

If the cost to enroll is large for resale, this may be a showstopper for us. Although I would like to have fluid access to MVC and the ability to rent points (which is a great benefit. Thanks @GregT for pointing out.) it is not a must have for us as a WKORV-N OF owner. Similar to @Ken555 we don't trade our property much and could continue to use SOs, II or rent it out for cash in the rare occasion we would exchange.

We would more likely buy a resale trader with lower MF and then enroll that property and rent points when needed. The MVC system doesn't win in that case because our Maui OF will not be available to the points system - only the trader and this will be a low end property.


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## CalGalTraveler

Hmm an alternative approach? If we enroll our WKORVN but choose to use it instead of depositing for points can we still rent MVC points from others for an additional stay in the MVC system because we have an enrolled account (even if 0 in it) from deposits?

If so, I might be willing to pay more to enroll to add this flexibility because it would cost less than buying and paying MF on a trader.


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## GregT

CalGalTraveler said:


> Hmm an alternative approach? If we enroll our WKORVN but choose to use it instead of depositing for points can we still rent MVC points from others for an additional stay in the MVC system because we have an enrolled account (even if 0 in it) from deposits?
> 
> If so, I might be willing to pay more to enroll to add this flexibility because it would cost less than buying and paying MF on a trader.


CalGal,

Yes you can enroll your week but never actually redeem it for points, and then simply rent what is needed.  I rarely redeem my MOC 3BR because it is more valuable as a rental then as a points generator.  But I like to rent points from others and do so frequently to give myself new options. 

I will be very curious to see what gets introduced.   Perhaps it will be a simple fixed ratio of StarOptions for DC points, and then offer “specials” for certain SVN properties that are particularly  attractive, something like 50% more points to redeem it for the first year (and then make that promotion permanent if they buy points).  They will want people to play with points because it is their experience that once people try points, they stay with points (and buy more). 

Interesting - all my speculation of course.

Best,

Greg


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## jjking42

Sounds like I should hold off on getting a SVV week for more star options and look for someplace I am willing to stay every year.


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## duke

Marriott could just give all StarOptions same value as now (for enrollment in DC) BUT "differentiate" via ELITE STATUS.
What a sales tool that would be.....
Higher ELITE levels get to book earlier.
So, without elite booking is still at 8 months.
Highest levels book at 13, 12, 10 etc.


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## ocdb8r

CalGalTraveler said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> If the cost to enroll is large for resale, this may be a showstopper for us. Although I would like to have fluid access to MVC and the ability to rent points (which is a great benefit. Thanks @GregT for pointing out.) it is not a must have for us as a WKORV-N OF owner. Similar to @Ken555 we don't trade our property much and could continue to use SOs, II or rent it out for cash in the rare occasion we would exchange.



Depends on what you mean by "large".  I'm sure someone from the Marriott boards could clarify, but if I remember correctly the cost for resale to enroll was approx $3k while it was only $500-600 for those who purchased their weeks from the developer.  The kicker was this was just for the first week you enroll, all additional weeks could be added for a marginal additional cost.



CalGalTraveler said:


> We would more likely buy a resale trader with lower MF and then enroll that property and rent points when needed. The MVC system doesn't win in that case because our Maui OF will not be available to the points system - only the trader and this will be a low end property.



Unlikely an option.  If past practice holds, Marriott only allowed resale weeks purchased (about a week) prior to announcement of the program (explicitly to prevent this type of behavior).  They subsequently opened the enrollment window for resale owners a few years later for a short period (but again, it was open only to those who owned weeks prior to the announcement of the re-opening). 



duke said:


> Marriott could just give all StarOptions same value as now (for enrollment in DC) BUT "differentiate" via ELITE STATUS.
> What a sales tool that would be.....
> Higher ELITE levels get to book earlier.
> So, without elite booking is still at 8 months.
> Highest levels book at 13, 12, 10 etc.



This is already part of the existing DC Program.  See here:  https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/common/cms/mvcau/pdfs/benefits-at-a-glance-chart-US.pdf.


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## Tucsonadventurer

ocdb8r said:


> Depends on what you mean by "large".  I'm sure someone from the Marriott boards could clarify, but if I remember correctly the cost for resale to enroll was approx $3k while it was only $500-600 for those who purchased their weeks from the developer.  The kicker was this was just for the first week you enroll, all additional weeks could be added for a marginal additional cost.
> 
> 
> 
> Unlikely an option.  If past practice holds, Marriott only allowed resale weeks purchased (about a week) prior to announcement of the program (explicitly to prevent this type of behavior).  They subsequently opened the enrollment window for resale owners a few years later for a short period (but again, it was open only to those who owned weeks prior to the announcement of the re-opening).
> 
> 
> 
> This is already part of the existing DC Program.  See here:  https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/common/cms/mvcau/pdfs/benefits-at-a-glance-chart-US.pdf.


So in the past did the $3,000 just enroll your week or did it include points with a Maintenance fee. Was there a yearly fee to enroll your weeks?


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## ocdb8r

Tucsonadventurer said:


> So in the past did the $3,000 just enroll your week or did it include points with a Maintenance fee. Was there a yearly fee to enroll your weeks?



This was purely to enroll your weeks.  On top of that there is then a yearly "membership fee" (just like the SVN fee) to maintain access to the program (and you must pay it every year, even if you don't elect DC points...failure to pay boots your week from the DC system permanently until you re-enroll).  It didn't "include" points so to speak, similar to SVN you would receive points if/when you elect to turn it in to the DC system (which you could choose on a yearly basis, similar to SVN).


Now here's an interesting wrinkle I hadn't thought of before.  The one difference is with SVN, enrolled weeks are _automatically _turned into StarOptions at the 8-month mark if you don't make a reservation at your home resort. What is going to happen to weeks enrolled in BOTH the DC and SVN?  If at 8 months they automatically flip into SVN (as they do now) that's going to pose a difficulty for getting Vistana inventory into the DC.  If they change this (watch this space...SOMEthing will happen here) there's going to be a decrease in SVN inventory.  Continuing to run both programs side-by-side, independently, is going to create a problem in the long term.  Marriott will find some way to make SVN inventory fungible with DC inventory (which circles back to my original thought that they'll have to come up with some sort of clear/fixed conversion rate).


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## SteelerGal

ocdb8r said:


> This was purely to enroll your weeks.  On top of that there is then a yearly "membership fee" (just like the SVN fee) to maintain access to the program (and you must pay it every year, even if you don't elect DC points...failure to pay boots your week from the DC system permanently until you re-enroll).  It didn't "include" points so to speak, similar to SVN you would receive points if/when you elect to turn it in to the DC system (which you could choose on a yearly basis, similar to SVN).
> 
> 
> Now here's an interesting wrinkle I hadn't thought of before.  The one difference is with SVN, enrolled weeks are _automatically _turned into StarOptions at the 8-month mark if you don't make a reservation at your home resort. What is going to happen to weeks enrolled in BOTH the DC and SVN?  If at 8 months they automatically flip into SVN (as they do now) that's going to pose a difficulty for getting Vistana inventory into the DC.  If they change this (watch this space...SOMEthing will happen here) there's going to be a decrease in SVN inventory.  Continuing to run both programs side-by-side, independently, is going to create a problem in the long term.  Marriott will find some way to make SVN inventory fungible with DC inventory (which circles back to my original thought that they'll have to come up with some sort of clear/fixed conversion rate).


I was wondering the same because Mandatory SVN already has Club Fees w/ the 8mo switch.  How will enrolling mandatory into DC become a benefit?  I can understand non mandatory but I wouldn’t enroll my WKV where I already have a System to Trade.  
I have read the MVC Board regarding DC and it’s very thorough.  After just reading should I enroll my weeks, I could only see my enrolling non mandatory resales at this point.  Of course it will be more fees.


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## bizaro86

I agree that a fixed conversion rate would be the simplest. But it presents the problem that it will attract few Hawaii/Carribean owners, and lots of SDO/SVR/SVV etc owners. 

The Hawaii owners are probably a better bet (on average) to buy trust points at retail, so they will want to get those people enrolled and using points, which means it needs to be worth their while. However, of they give Maui owners enough DC points to be worthwhile and then apply a fixed ratio, they'll be giving out way to many points to the lower end properties, which will end up being over supplied in the trust.


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## DannyTS

Let's also not forget that SDO has 3 seasons and only 22 platinum weeks. Regardless of the conversion, Hawaii owners will collectively end up with a lot more points since all the weeks are platinum


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## bizaro86

DannyTS said:


> Let's also not forget that SDO has 3 seasons and only 22 platinum weeks. Regardless of the conversion, Hawaii owners will collectively end up with a lot more points since all the weeks are platinum



The problem works both ways though. If they give a resort "too many" points, they will end up with too much supply of that resort.

However, it also will mean that not many people trade into it, reducing demand as well and leaving the trust chronically over supplied with the resorts that are over-pointed.

There are some things they could do to balance, like put over supplied resorts into II and take out deposits for resorts they are short on, but I doubt they want the DC permanently out of balance.


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## dioxide45

Let's look at this from a numbers standpoint.

*Consider all of the following;*

As a Vistana owner who could enroll their week in some type of overlay you would still have the following options; Stay at your Home Resort in your owned season and unit type. This could not be devalued.
For Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex, Nanea and certain WSJ owners, use your HomeOptions to book in to your home resort using those Options. This would not be devalued. 
Use StarOptions to book a stay within the existing VSN network of properties at eight months out. That means if you own a Plat Plus WKV, you would still be able to use those 148,100 StarOptions to go and stay in a 148,100 SO week at WKORV. This would not be devalued. 
With those above options, you would not be losing anything. If you chose not to enroll, you would still have tomorrow what you have today. If you do enroll you would simply add the following additional option; 

Elect to receive a set amount of Vacation Club points to be able to reserve across the entire system of Marriott and Vistana resorts. You may do better or worse with this method depending on how many DC points they allocate and how much it costs to book at a resort for your intended stay. 
*Now for the numbers example; *
Both SDO true Platinum Plus and WKORVN Platinum Plus (non-OF) weeks are worth 148,100 StarOptions. If we look at how many DC points Marriott assigned to Maui Ocean Club Napili and Lahaina Towers Ocean View, it is 6,625 DC points. It costs between 6,650 and 8,025 to reserve a 2BR OV unit there. At Shadow Ridge Enclaves 2BR Deluxe they offer 3,375 DC points when an owner elects points for their week. A 2BR Deluxe unit at Shadow Ridge costs between 2,725 and 4,500 DC points to book a week. 

Herein lies the problem. If they were to offer 6,625 points for both SDO Platinum Plus and WKORVN Platinum Plus, they would be offering way more points than it would take to book a week at SDO, creating a large imbalance at SDO. Why would an SDO ever book their home resort week when they could elect DC points and get almost two weeks for the price of one? It could also cause inventory constriction at Shadow Ridge or the other Marriott Palm Desert resorts because of the lower point requirements for a platinum week there. Now they could offer DC points for both SDO and WKORVN closer to the amount they currently offer for Shadow Ridge Enclaves (3,375), but then you end up with owners at WKORVN never wanting to elect for DC points because it would create a huge skim and the value in VSN is so much better. 

The same could be said between SDO true Platinum Plus vs Kierland Villas Platinum Plus. I would expect WKV to be a higher ranked value when it comes to DC point allocations. With so much geographical overlap between the two systems. They will need to assign points to the Vistana properties on the DC points chart in line the existing Marriott properties in the same areas. I would expect a small premium on the Vistana properties because the Sheraton units tend to be two 1BR units instead of a studio and a 1BR at most Marriott resorts. The Westin units are also better appointed with a better kitchenette and in room laundry in the studios. However, I wouldn't expect this to cost much more than a 10% premium at most. 

Using the Shadow Ridge Enclaves 2BR Deluxe is the best example example since it consists of a small 1BR and a large 1BR. So I would expect the DC point chart for SDO to look very similar to Shadow Ridge Enclaves. So a week at SDO would probably cost between 2,725 and 4,500 DC points. 

I simply don't see how it would be any more convoluted for Marriott to assign point values to individual Vistana weeks and keep that method consistent with their existing point assignments that they give all of their Marriott weeks as it would be to have something completely separate conversion factor for Vistana weeks where they base it on the number of StarOptions one gets for their week. What about voluntary owners that don't have StarOptions, perhaps they get an assigned a points value as if they did have StarOptions? Neither method of assigning point values is more or less convoluted than the other.

As to the Marriott DC chart being a disastrous mess, I do agree with that but that is how I would expect future Vistana weeks inside of an integrated DC system to work. The fact that we think it is a disastrous mess hasn't prevented many people from using and electing DC points from their Marriott weeks, so it must be working to some extent. I don't expect Marriott to deviate from that if they integrate the Vistana properties in to that chart. There is certainly value to be found in the points costs of those properties while there are also certain times of the year that it makes more sense to just use your week. That being if they fully integrate them. They would then likely assign point values in line with how they assigned them to Marriott weeks. Effectively rewriting the seasons for those that want to play in the new points program to move between the systems. 

Of course, this is all speculation and no one is right or wrong in their speculation. Unless of course they have some kind of inside information they aren't admitting to. We are all really just guessing here. They may opt to not integrate the systems at all in the way many are suggesting. They may instead say # number of StarOptions are worth # number of DC points when booking six months in advance and you can only do this if you own developer purchased DC trust points or Vistana weeks or Home/FlexOptions. 

Remember, that given all of this, I would not expect Marriott to take away any usage rights that anyone currently has today, so as I mentioned in the first part of this post, a Vistana owner could still use their owned week or use their Home/FlexOptions in their priority period of 12-8 months. They could also continue to use StarOptions at 8 months out if they wish. Or if they want, they can elect DC points and would be given a set amount of points to book using the point values on the DC point chart. 

I think that it is foolhardy to expect that Marriott will somehow give someone who owns a 2BR SDO enough DC points to book a week in Hawaii in prime time, even if they have that ability today. They won't lose that ability because they could still use StarOptions if they so desire. So, people don't lose what they would already have today.


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## dioxide45

SteelerGal said:


> I was wondering the same because Mandatory SVN already has Club Fees w/ the 8mo switch.  How will enrolling mandatory into DC become a benefit?  I can understand non mandatory but I wouldn’t enroll my WKV where I already have a System to Trade.
> I have read the MVC Board regarding DC and it’s very thorough.  After just reading should I enroll my weeks, I could only see my enrolling non mandatory resales at this point.  Of course it will be more fees.


Mandatory could benefit with the ability to book Marriott properties outside the existing VSN network. Perhaps you want to go to Aruba. Badaboom, elect points with your WKV and book in to the Aruba Surf Club!


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## dioxide45

ocdb8r said:


> Now here's an interesting wrinkle I hadn't thought of before. The one difference is with SVN, enrolled weeks are _automatically _turned into StarOptions at the 8-month mark if you don't make a reservation at your home resort. What is going to happen to weeks enrolled in BOTH the DC and SVN? If at 8 months they automatically flip into SVN (as they do now) that's going to pose a difficulty for getting Vistana inventory into the DC. If they change this (watch this space...SOMEthing will happen here) there's going to be a decrease in SVN inventory. Continuing to run both programs side-by-side, independently, is going to create a problem in the long term. Marriott will find some way to make SVN inventory fungible with DC inventory (which circles back to my original thought that they'll have to come up with some sort of clear/fixed conversion rate).


Your week doesn't automatically flip to StarOptions in Vistana. You have to make a reservation inside of 8 months for it to be a StarOption reservation. I suspect what would happen is if in a given year you elect DC points, you give up all other rights to that week. You can't then book a home resort reservation or HomeOptions reservation and you would lose the ability to book with StarOptions. You would then have X number of DC points to use in the DC system utilizing the DC chart to make your reservation. I suspect your VSN fee would go away in favor of the higher DC annual fee. Currently as low as $205.


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## dioxide45

Tucsonadventurer said:


> So in the past did the $3,000 just enroll your week or did it include points with a Maintenance fee. Was there a yearly fee to enroll your weeks?


The initial fee to enroll was $595 for a single developer purchased week and $695 if you were enrolling two or more. It was $1495 if you were enrolling an externally purchased week and $1995 if you were enrolling two or more. An incentive of 800 bonus one time use points was offered for enrollment.

The current fee I think is $2395 to enroll any number of weeks no matter how they were acquired. The only requirement for external weeks is that they had to have closed and the deed recorded prior to 6/20/2010.


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## Ken555

Eh, this is a theoretical exercise in futility since we don’t know what they will do. For instance, I could say...

SDO and certain other resorts that currently have SOs could exchange for enough Marriott points to get a Hawaii week when exchanging for Hawaii and less when exchanging elsewhere. What matters is the availability in each reservation pool, not the number of points...and once they decide how to create this system they can always make the numbers work somehow. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> Eh, this is a theoretical exercise in futility since we don’t know what they will do. For instance, I could say...
> 
> SDO and certain other resorts that currently have SOs could exchange for enough Marriott points to get a Hawaii week when exchanging for Hawaii and less when exchanging elsewhere. What matters is the availability in each reservation pool, not the number of points...and once they decide how to create this system they can always make the numbers work somehow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I agree, this is all a thoretical exercise. But why would they need to give SDO enough points to book in to Hawaii when they already have that ability to do so in VSN. Any new overlay should be on top of what you already can do. If they want to try to bring the systems together it doesn't make sense to reinvent the wheel when they already have the DC system there. All they have to do is assign point values in line with other properties in the same geographical area.


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## vacationtime1

dioxide45 said:


> Your week doesn't automatically flip to StarOptions in Vistana. You have to make a reservation inside of 8 months for it to be a StarOption reservation. I suspect what would happen is if in a given year you elect DC points, you give up all other rights to that week. You can't then book a home resort reservation or HomeOptions reservation and you would lose the ability to book with StarOptions. You would then have X number of DC points to use in the DC system utilizing the DC chart to make your reservation. *I suspect your VSN fee would go away in favor of the higher DC annual fee. Currently as low as $205*.



I cannot see Marriott waiving any fee it is allowed to collect -- and collecting VSN fees is "mandatory", as it were.  The VSN fee is already about $200/year for those of us who own multiple mandatory weeks.  That revenue is close to pure profit for Marriott.

Perhaps there will a _reduced_ fee for VSN owners who enroll; it would be tough for the owner of two mandatory properties to be asked to pay $200 to VSN and another $200 to the DC.  But I see Marriott doing its best to push fees to the "ouch" level.


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## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> I agree, this is all a thoretical exercise. But why would they need to give SDO enough points to book in to Hawaii when they already have that ability to do so in VSN. Any new overlay should be on top of what you already can do. If they want to try to bring the systems together it doesn't make sense to reinvent the wheel when they already have the DC system there. All they have to do is assign point values in line with other properties in the same geographical area.



If I can trade into Hawaii in one network, I should be able to trade into it from the other. It doesn’t make sense to lower effective capability without  balancing it somehow. My point was solely to illustrate that your earlier rather certain opinion that it would be foolhardy to allow such transfers relies upon your assumption that such weeks would convert to one known amount of points and then use those points to reserve a week, while I postulated that it’s possible to have a variable amount of points based on the ultimate reservation resort. Again, it’s not going to happen but I find such discussions silly in the extreme since we’re just spinning wheels.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> Let's look at this from a numbers standpoint.
> 
> *Consider all of the following;*
> 
> As a Vistana owner who could enroll their week in some type of overlay you would still have the following options; Stay at your Home Resort in your owned season and unit type. This could not be devalued.
> For Sheraton Flex, Westin Flex, Nanea and certain WSJ owners, use your HomeOptions to book in to your home resort using those Options. This would not be devalued.
> Use StarOptions to book a stay within the existing VSN network of properties at eight months out. That means if you own a Plat Plus WKV, you would still be able to use those 148,100 StarOptions to go and stay in a 148,100 SO week at WKORV. This would not be devalued.
> With those above options, you would not be losing anything. If you chose not to enroll, you would still have tomorrow what you have today. If you do enroll you would simply add the following additional option;
> 
> Elect to receive a set amount of Vacation Club points to be able to reserve across the entire system of Marriott and Vistana resorts. You may do better or worse with this method depending on how many DC points they allocate and how much it costs to book at a resort for your intended stay.
> *Now for the numbers example; *
> Both SDO true Platinum Plus and WKORVN Platinum Plus (non-OF) weeks are worth 148,100 StarOptions. If we look at how many DC points Marriott assigned to Maui Ocean Club Napili and Lahaina Towers Ocean View, it is 6,625 DC points. It costs between 6,650 and 8,025 to reserve a 2BR OV unit there. At Shadow Ridge Enclaves 2BR Deluxe they offer 3,375 DC points when an owner elects points for their week. A 2BR Deluxe unit at Shadow Ridge costs between 2,725 and 4,500 DC points to book a week.
> 
> Herein lies the problem. If they were to offer 6,625 points for both SDO Platinum Plus and WKORVN Platinum Plus, they would be offering way more points than it would take to book a week at SDO, creating a large imbalance at SDO. Why would an SDO ever book their home resort week when they could elect DC points and get almost two weeks for the price of one? It could also cause inventory constriction at Shadow Ridge or the other Marriott Palm Desert resorts because of the lower point requirements for a platinum week there. Now they could offer DC points for both SDO and WKORVN closer to the amount they currently offer for Shadow Ridge Enclaves (3,375), but then you end up with owners at WKORVN never wanting to elect for DC points because it would create a huge skim and the value in VSN is so much better.
> 
> The same could be said between SDO true Platinum Plus vs Kierland Villas Platinum Plus. I would expect WKV to be a higher ranked value when it comes to DC point allocations. With so much geographical overlap between the two systems. They will need to assign points to the Vistana properties on the DC points chart in line the existing Marriott properties in the same areas. I would expect a small premium on the Vistana properties because the Sheraton units tend to be two 1BR units instead of a studio and a 1BR at most Marriott resorts. The Westin units are also better appointed with a better kitchenette and in room laundry in the studios. However, I wouldn't expect this to cost much more than a 10% premium at most.
> 
> Using the Shadow Ridge Enclaves 2BR Deluxe is the best example example since it consists of a small 1BR and a large 1BR. So I would expect the DC point chart for SDO to look very similar to Shadow Ridge Enclaves. So a week at SDO would probably cost between 2,725 and 4,500 DC points.
> 
> I simply don't see how it would be any more convoluted for Marriott to assign point values to individual Vistana weeks and keep that method consistent with their existing point assignments that they give all of their Marriott weeks as it would be to have something completely separate conversion factor for Vistana weeks where they base it on the number of StarOptions one gets for their week. What about voluntary owners that don't have StarOptions, perhaps they get an assigned a points value as if they did have StarOptions? Neither method of assigning point values is more or less convoluted than the other.
> 
> As to the Marriott DC chart being a disastrous mess, I do agree with that but that is how I would expect future Vistana weeks inside of an integrated DC system to work. The fact that we think it is a disastrous mess hasn't prevented many people from using and electing DC points from their Marriott weeks, so it must be working to some extent. I don't expect Marriott to deviate from that if they integrate the Vistana properties in to that chart. There is certainly value to be found in the points costs of those properties while there are also certain times of the year that it makes more sense to just use your week. That being if they fully integrate them. They would then likely assign point values in line with how they assigned them to Marriott weeks. Effectively rewriting the seasons for those that want to play in the new points program to move between the systems.
> 
> Of course, this is all speculation and no one is right or wrong in their speculation. Unless of course they have some kind of inside information they aren't admitting to. We are all really just guessing here. They may opt to not integrate the systems at all in the way many are suggesting. They may instead say # number of StarOptions are worth # number of DC points when booking six months in advance and you can only do this if you own developer purchased DC trust points or Vistana weeks or Home/FlexOptions.
> 
> Remember, that given all of this, I would not expect Marriott to take away any usage rights that anyone currently has today, so as I mentioned in the first part of this post, a Vistana owner could still use their owned week or use their Home/FlexOptions in their priority period of 12-8 months. They could also continue to use StarOptions at 8 months out if they wish. Or if they want, they can elect DC points and would be given a set amount of points to book using the point values on the DC point chart.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that it is foolhardy to expect that Marriott will somehow give someone who owns a 2BR SDO enough DC points to book a week in Hawaii in prime time, even if they have that ability today. They won't lose that ability because they could still use StarOptions if they so desire. So, people don't lose what they would already have today.



this is a good example but I am going to give another one. Say few year ago a couple was sitting in the SDO sales offices. They were shown  a points chart and they were told that they could buy a 2 bedroom gold season and get 81,000 SOs that they can use anywhere in the system. They were also told that they could get a 1 bedroom platinum season in Hawaii for  a whole week with those 81k points. They agreed, they signed and they thought that for many years to come they would have fabulous vacations in the VSN. Fast forward to 2023 they are now enrolled in both VSN and MVC and things have changed quite a bit for them. Now, the  conversion rate between Vistana Hawaii and gold SDO is no longer 2:1 but rather 4:1 in MVC. Yes, they can still try to book with SO's but all the Hawaii owners deposit in MVC that offers them relative better value. They feel betrayed by the company that sold them the timeshare. Maybe it is time for them to cut the loss and default on the maintenance fees, , what is the  point in keeping the timeshare? They cannot trade the way they used to, they cannot rent for more than the MF and if they try to sell it, they found out that they have to pay in order to transfer it to someone else.


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## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> this is a good example but I am going to give another one. Say few year ago a couple was sitting in the SDO sales offices. They were shown  a points chart and they were told that they could buy a 2 bedroom gold season and get 81,000 SOs that they can use anywhere in the system. They were also told that they could get a 1 bedroom platinum season in Hawaii for  a whole week with those 81k points. They agreed, they signed and they thought that for many years to come they would have fabulous vacations in the VSN. Fast forward to 2023 they are now enrolled in both VSN and MVC and things have changed quite a bit for them. Now, the  conversion rate between Vistana Hawaii and gold SDO is no longer 2:1 but rather 4:1 in MVC. Yes, they can still try to book with SO's but all the Hawaii owners deposit in MVC that offers them relative better value. They feel betrayed by the company that sold them the timeshare. Maybe it is time for them to cut the loss and default on the maintenance fees, , what is the  point in keeping the timeshare? They cannot trade the way they used to, they cannot rent for more than the MF and if they try to sell it, they found out that they have to pay in order to transfer it to someone else.


That is certainly a risk and it is something that existed when Marriott rolled out the DC system in 2010. A week in Orlando was only worth 2000 points but it cost 5000 to book in Hawaii. Many Marriott owners were previously able to exchange their weeks in Orlando for a week in Hawaii, even steven. Perhaps they even used the studio or 1BR to exchange in to a 2BR in Hawaii. They perhaps saw a devaluation of what they owned. Truth be told that they can still exchange those Orlando weeks for a week in Hawaii almost ten years later.


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## vacationtime1

dioxide45 said:


> That is certainly a risk and it is something that existed when Marriott rolled out the DC system in 2010. A week in Orlando was only worth 2000 points but it cost 5000 to book in Hawaii. Many Marriott owners were previously able to exchange their weeks in Orlando for a week in Hawaii, even steven. Perhaps they even used the studio or 1BR to exchange in to a 2BR in Hawaii. They perhaps saw a devaluation of what they owned. *Truth be told that they can still exchange those Orlando weeks for a week in Hawaii almost ten years later*.



Can they?  As easily as before?  I ask those here who used to exchange Desert Springs summer studios and the like into Hawaii -- can you still?

My speculation (and I agree that this is all speculation, albeit educated speculation) is that trading up has become progessively harder and harder.  It is not good business for Marriott to give stuff away that they could be paid for.  The Destinations Club gave Marriott more leverage over exchanges because it can swap inventory with Interval "behind the curtain".  Will reallocating prices by means of reducing the utility of StarOptions continue this trend?


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## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> That is certainly a risk and it is something that existed when Marriott rolled out the DC system in 2010. A week in Orlando was only worth 2000 points but it cost 5000 to book in Hawaii. Many Marriott owners were previously able to exchange their weeks in Orlando for a week in Hawaii, even steven. Perhaps they even used the studio or 1BR to exchange in to a 2BR in Hawaii. They perhaps saw a devaluation of what they owned. Truth be told that they can still exchange those Orlando weeks for a week in Hawaii almost ten years later.


As said before, before 2010 people bought Marriott weeks based on their usage value, not based on an internal exchange value since there was no points chart before that so i just do not see how anyone could have felt cheated about any new chart.


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## Ken555

vacationtime1 said:


> Can they?  As easily as before?  I ask those here who used to exchange Desert Springs summer studios and the like into Hawaii -- can you still?
> 
> My speculation (and I agree that this is all speculation, albeit educated speculation) is that trading up has become progessively harder and harder.  It is not good business for Marriott to give stuff away that they could be paid for.  The Destinations Club gave Marriott more leverage over exchanges because it can swap inventory with Interval "behind the curtain".  Will reallocating prices by means of reducing the utility of StarOptions continue this trend?



Exactly. The goal is likely to reduce dependence and effectiveness of StarOptions. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear this belief reinforced by sales in order to encourage owners to “upgrade” to the points program. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> As said before, before 2010 people bought Marriott weeks based on their usage value, not based on an internal exchange value since there was no points chart before that so i just do not see how anyone could have felt cheated about any new chart.



Yes. And, I suspect many Marriott owners enjoy the benefits of the new points exchange as compared to weeks only. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DannyTS

Ken555 said:


> Yes. And, I suspect many Marriott owners enjoy the benefits of the new points exchange as compared to weeks only.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I agree with that but that is history. I am just saying that many people will feel that they were sold one thing and they are ending up with another. I am not talking about the average TUGger who has maximized every single purchase based on many factors but rather the average Joe who sat through a common presentation.


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## Ken555

DannyTS said:


> I agree with that but that is history. I am just saying that many people will feel that they were sold one thing and they are ending up with another. I am not talking about the average TUGger who has maximized every single purchase based on many factors but rather the average Joe who sat through a common presentation.



Of course. You posted that several times, and I’ve agreed with you. Still, it isn’t hard to believe that even casual Marriott owners that converted to points have found ways to use it. 

I just think it’s absurd for anyone here to believe that is okay for Marriott to devalue, in any way, the effective utilization of our existing weeks. And even if we can continue to exchange via SOs if inventory is not there due to conversion to points, then it will effectively be a devaluation of our club membership. Naturally, and it should go without saying, they have the right to do whatever they want with the club including disbanding it...we have threads on that for years here, but we all seem to agree that they won’t be that foolish. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> As said before, before 2010 people bought Marriott weeks based on their usage value, not based on an internal exchange value since there was no points chart before that so i just do not see how anyone could have felt cheated about any new chart.


Many people were sold Marriott weeks based on the value of trading through II, just like Vistana owners were sold on the ability to use StarOptions for trades. The Orlando pitch was often, use your Orlando week and go to Hawaii. So to say they were sold based solely on their usage value is not correct. All of the contract and underlying documents provide you with a guaranty of usage value of the underlying deeded ownership, nothing more.

How any integration is done is anyone's guess, but to think they want to protect SDO owners current perceived value? The problem is if they offer SDO Platinum Plus owners 6000 points for their week, it also requires the cost of a stay there to be about 6000 points. All those SDO owners are now wanting to use their huge allotment of points to go to the Marriott's on Maui but no one wants to use DC points to go to SDO. The place would be a ghost town. They need to consider balancing out the supply and demand, not just protecting someone's unpromised perceived value.


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## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> Many people were sold Marriott weeks based on the value of trading through II, just like Vistana owners were sold on the ability to use StarOptions for trades. The Orlando pitch was often, use your Orlando week and go to Hawaii. So to say they were sold based solely on their usage value is not correct. All of the contract and underlying documents provide you with a guaranty of usage value of the underlying deeded ownership, nothing more.
> 
> How any integration is done is anyone's guess, but to think they want to protect SDO owners current perceived value? The problem is if they offer SDO Platinum Plus owners 6000 points for their week, it also requires the cost of a stay there to be about 6000 points. All those SDO owners are now wanting to use their huge allotment of points to go to the Marriott's on Maui but no one wants to use DC points to go to SDO. The place would be a ghost town. They need to consider balancing out the supply and demand, not just protecting someone's unpromised perceived value.


I see your point and I think the 2 situations are similar in some ways but very different in reality. Any third rate resort in the world paints a rosy picture when it comes to RCI or Interval exchanges. However, I think that an internal exchange is very different and there is a much bigger burden on the developers to deliver what they promise. The proof? RCI and Interval change the trading power constantly, possibly few times a month for certain resorts. The internal trading charts are much more static and I think this is the consequence of what the executives believe they can get away with or not.


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## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> I see your point and I think the 2 situations are similar in some ways but very different in reality. Any third rate resort in the world paints a rosy picture when it comes to RCI or Interval exchanges. However, I think that an internal exchange is very different and there is a much bigger burden on the developers to deliver what they promise. The proof? RCI and Interval change the trading power constantly, possibly few times a month for certain resorts. The internal trading charts are much more static and I think this is the consequence of what the executives believe they can get away with or not.


Perhaps, but do you think that it is more likely that an SDO owner will get 6,000 DC points for their week to keep them on par with Hawaii or that they will go to the lower common denominator and give the Hawaii owner closer to 3,500 points?


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## dioxide45

I think these imbalances may result in Marriott going with a more limited integration. Perhaps the ability to use a conversion factor to book between the two systems at six months out. Thus protecting home resort priority, StarOption Priority and those that own DC trust points and others in the DC point system. The ability to work in this new system may require the purchase of new DC trust points, Sheraton Flex, or Westin Flex direct from the developer. Effectively blocking out all existing owners.

Another thing to consider, a straight integration to bring VIstana in to DC would give every DC enrolled owner access to Vistana properties without any additional cost. I am not sure that is how Marriott would want to go about this. They need to pay for the acquisition somehow and i suspect they will want to try to get current Marriott owners to pay some type of fee for the added flexibility.

Who knows how it will all shake down, we just need a mole inside VAC.


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## mjm1

dioxide45 said:


> I think these imbalances may result in Marriott going with a more limited integration. Perhaps the ability to use a conversion factor to book between the two systems at six months out. Thus protecting home resort priority, StarOption Priority and those that own DC trust points and others in the DC point system.



This seems reasonable to me as well. It makes sense that a new layover program would not interfere with the reservation timelines already in place in either system. Time will tell.

Best regards.

Mike


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## TravelTime

GregT said:


> CalGal,
> 
> Yes you can enroll your week but never actually redeem it for points, and then simply rent what is needed.  I rarely redeem my MOC 3BR because it is more valuable as a rental then as a points generator.  But I like to rent points from others and do so frequently to give myself new options.
> 
> I will be very curious to see what gets introduced.   Perhaps it will be a simple fixed ratio of StarOptions for DC points, and then offer “specials” for certain SVN properties that are particularly  attractive, something like 50% more points to redeem it for the first year (and then make that promotion permanent if they buy points).  They will want people to play with points because it is their experience that once people try points, they stay with points (and buy more).
> 
> Interesting - all my speculation of course.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Hi Greg,

I am purchasing some weeks now. What is the best way to price and rent weeks? I am trying to get units that have some sort of unique appeal like a good week (holiday, winter in florida) or oceanfront. Any recommendations? I have never rented out my weeks or points so hope it goes well and it’s easy.

Thanks,
TT


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## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> I think these imbalances may result in Marriott going with a more limited integration. Perhaps the ability to use a conversion factor to book between the two systems at six months out. Thus protecting home resort priority, StarOption Priority and those that own DC trust points and others in the DC point system. The ability to work in this new system may require the purchase of new DC trust points, Sheraton Flex, or Westin Flex direct from the developer. Effectively blocking out all existing owners.
> 
> Another thing to consider, a straight integration to bring VIstana in to DC would give every DC enrolled owner access to Vistana properties without any additional cost. I am not sure that is how Marriott would want to go about this. They need to pay for the acquisition somehow and i suspect they will want to try to get current Marriott owners to pay some type of fee for the added flexibility.
> 
> Who knows how it will all shake down, we just need a mole inside VAC.



That is the biggest argument for not just putting Vistana units in the trust. If they do that, they can't make a new separate level of some kind that includes access to Vistana resorts and sell it for more money. 

"With a minimum purchase of 1500 points, your entire account becomes "Trust Plus!" Aside from your current chairman's level benefits, you also get access to the Vistana resorts. Look at these pictures of watersliding at Harborside and the views from the cliff at Princeville. Don't your children and grandchildren deserve to have this in their lives?!?!? Your current account doesn't include any of these wonderful benefits, and for TODAY ONLY I can convert your entire account to Trust Plus points with only a small additional purchase!"


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## TravelTime

dioxide45 said:


> The initial fee to enroll was $595 for a single developer purchased week and $695 if you were enrolling two or more. It was $1495 if you were enrolling an externally purchased week and $1995 if you were enrolling two or more. An incentive of 800 bonus one time use points was offered for enrollment.
> 
> The current fee I think is $2395 to enroll any number of weeks no matter how they were acquired. The only requirement for external weeks is that they had to have closed and the deed recorded prior to 6/20/2010.



This is great. Hope we all get the offer to enroll.


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## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> I think these imbalances may result in Marriott going with a more limited integration. Perhaps the ability to use a conversion factor to book between the two systems at six months out. Thus protecting home resort priority, StarOption Priority and those that own DC trust points and others in the DC point system. The ability to work in this new system may require the purchase of new DC trust points, Sheraton Flex, or Westin Flex direct from the developer. Effectively blocking out all existing owners.
> 
> Another thing to consider, a straight integration to bring VIstana in to DC would give every DC enrolled owner access to Vistana properties without any additional cost. I am not sure that is how Marriott would want to go about this. They need to pay for the acquisition somehow and i suspect they will want to try to get current Marriott owners to pay some type of fee for the added flexibility.
> 
> Who knows how it will all shake down, we just need a mole inside VAC.[/QUOT
> 
> 
> dioxide45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but do you think that it is more likely that an SDO owner will get 6,000 DC points for their week to keep them on par with Hawaii or that they will go to the lower common denominator and give the Hawaii owner closer to 3,500 points?
Click to expand...

As I said before, I see flaws (and merit) in any of the suggested options. If they go with a fixed conversion thought, neither Hawaii nor SDO will have anything close to 6000 points, maybe just around 4000-4500


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## ocdb8r

I don't disagree that all of this is speculation and that none of us knows exactly how it will play out...but isn't that what these sorts of boards are for?  I personally enjoy hearing everyone's thoughts!

On the most recent string of threads and speculation on a more limited overlay, I don't disagree that this is possible, but I just can't imagine that's a smart end goal for Marriott.  It's got to be incredibly expensive and cumbersome to maintain multiple distinct product lines....not to mention continued development of those products.  MVC is also pressured by the reality that the hotels side is spending lots of time and money to promote the combined hotels and loyalty program as one big happy family.  They are swimming upstream against that current if they don't find a way to more fully integrate the MVC and SVN. 

I also don't think up selling DC points owners a special fee to access SVN is a primary goal.  I just don't think there's enough on offer there to justify it.  The only unique properties in our portfolio are Harborside and the Mexico properties.  The DC program currently has a decent footprint everywhere else we do.  I don't deny they could really play up these few properties, but I just don't think it's enough.  It's also not consistent with how they've worked in the past - both when they added the Asia properties (2 years after DC launched) and the Pulse system, they didn't try to up sell access to these products as an add-on.  The REAL revenue potential is selling additional DC points to SVN customers...and I don't see how they make a compelling case for that unless the systems are reasonably fungible.  Why would anyone add on DC points if they can't amass enough to book anything until 6 months out?  Yes, the salespeople could come up with any array of excuses as to why it's a good idea, but there's no REAL value proposition compared to what they offer now (and say what you will about salespeople, but I think MVC management has consistently tried to create a product with a true value proposition).


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## ocdb8r

dioxide45 said:


> Your week doesn't automatically flip to StarOptions in Vistana. You have to make a reservation inside of 8 months for it to be a StarOption reservation. I suspect what would happen is if in a given year you elect DC points, you give up all other rights to that week. You can't then book a home resort reservation or HomeOptions reservation and you would lose the ability to book with StarOptions. You would then have X number of DC points to use in the DC system utilizing the DC chart to make your reservation. I suspect your VSN fee would go away in favor of the higher DC annual fee. Currently as low as $205.



Technically correct, but I think this missed my point.  I didn't mean to imply at 8 months everyone is GIVEN StarOptions - but I think I am correct that at 8 months out, all SVN enrolled inventory becomes available to StarOptions exchanges.  My point wasn't about how this affects individual owner elections, but rather how it affects inventory availability.  The current system is predicated on the idea that if you are enrolled you have 4 months to make a "home resort" reservation.  At the 8 month point all enrolled weeks become available to SVN members for StarOption reservations.  How do you overlay that with DC points to ensure availability?  This all goes to the third prong of your long post about maintaining the same internal SVN exchange options you currently have.  I don't see how Marriott creates a completely independent overlay that ensures availability both ways.  There's a suggestion people would elect DC points at the beginning of the year (thereby giving up their usage rights to the DC system) but this sort of voluntary election has never proven successful....it's precisely why "deposit first" in II is much less common than request first in II.  It's also part of the struggle the internal Hyatt overlay is seeing.  It was also a big concern when DC points was launched - Marriott solved this by managing a sufficiently large enough portion of inventory by buying up weeks at existing resorts and deeding them to the DC Points program.  How will they manage without any ability to control SVN inventory?

Finally, nothing seems to resolve how to treat the FLEX system owners vs. the weeks owners in an overlay.  I totally agree that there is an inherent problem with the difference in value between SDO and WKORV - if you resolve that by assigning the owned weeks their relative values (as MVC did when the DC launched) WHAT do you do with FLEX/Aventuras owners who own no weeks?  They own nothing but points.


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## DannyTS

4Sunsets said:


> Regarding Westin Mexico TS, I wouldn't stay in those if I was paid. Wouldn't let family stay either, unless and until Mexico resolves the mess its in w regard to crime, etc.


 By the way, according to ARC, this year Cancun will be again the number one destination for American tourists, so clearly those that go there see things very differently than those who experience Mexico just on TV. So it is hard for me to see how the MVC owners will not benefit from the addition of the Mexican resorts.

"The top 10 summer destinations by airline ticket transactions include:


Cancun, Mexico
New York
Orlando, Florida
London
Las Vegas
Punta Cana, Dominican Republic
Seattle
Honolulu
Los Angeles
Chicago"

*Cancun Again Ranks as Number One Destination for US Fliers this Summer*
*https://www2.arccorp.com/about-us/newsroom/2019-news-releases/pr20190605/#*


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## LisaRex

Haven't owned a TS in a long time, but every time I think about maybe getting one, I read threads like this one that dissuade me from doing it.  Both Marriott and Starwood/Vistana complicated their own product by switching from deeded weeks to points mid-stream, which only muddied the water.   They further complicated their own product by assigning "points" based on something OTHER than supply and demand.  In short:  If a 2 bdrm ocean front resort in Hawaii can command $3000 in rent, while a 2 bdrm pool view resort in Orlando can only command $1500, then the former should be assigned 2x the points.  End of story.  (I've owned in both places.) 

When they pulled shenanigans like they did at WLR, and increased SOs in order to increase sales, IMO they ruined their own points system.  Because no one wants to exchange into a resort using points, if what they pay in MFs exceeds rental rates. 

Had they based points on supply and demand and stuck to that method, then no one would have to get a stomachache thinking that they made a terrible mistake in buying, and no one would have worry that MVC is going to greatly devalue their resort.  So my advice to them, as if they want it, is to base points on something everyone understands and that is the good old US$.


----------



## DannyTS

LisaRex said:


> Haven't owned a TS in a long time, but every time I think about maybe getting one, I read threads like this one that dissuade me from doing it.  Both Marriott and Starwood/Vistana complicated their own product by switching from deeded weeks to points mid-stream, which only muddied the water.   They further complicated their own product by assigning "points" based on something OTHER than supply and demand.  In short:  If a 2 bdrm ocean front resort in Hawaii can command $3000 in rent, while a 2 bdrm pool view resort in Orlando can only command $1500, then the former should be assigned 2x the points.  End of story.  (I've owned in both places.)
> 
> When they pulled shenanigans like they did at WLR, and increased SOs in order to increase sales, IMO they ruined their own points system.  Because no one wants to exchange into a resort using points, if what they pay in MFs exceeds rental rates.
> 
> Had they based points on supply and demand and stuck to that method, then no one would have to get a stomachache thinking that they made a terrible mistake in buying, and no one would have worry that MVC is going to greatly devalue their resort.  So my advice to them, as if they want it, is to base points on something everyone understands and that is the good old US$.


Except that in case of WLR the time proved them right. The resort is at 92%average capacity. Since Sept _ Nov are very slow months it means the resort is close to 100 % the rest of the year so people clearly see value there


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## CPNY

GregT said:


> Ken, this is a really good post -- very thoughtful, constructive and honest.  I agree with your comments on Canyon Villas and Shadow Ridge -- both appear to be mass produced timeshares where I wake up and --boom -- there are 000's of units with little creativity (Canyon Villas is actually smaller, but feels the same).  Some of the Orlando properties have the same feel -- just huge timeshares, and they are what they are.    I've not been to Kierland and will look forward to visiting it.
> 
> I also rarely post a rating and I should.  I absolutely loved WPORV and WKORV/N -- fabulous properties.   HRA was amazing, but the property showed the wear and tear -- just like Marriott Aruba Ocean Club did -- I remember posting on this somewhere and wondering if this was a Caribbean thing.
> 
> We will see -- but thanks again for your post and your candor.
> 
> A curiosity -- if an Overlay was introduced similar to what we have speculated (either enroll your Vistana week and get Marriott points, OR get a fixed number of Marriott Points in exchange for your StarOptions), how many Vistana owners would want to enroll?
> 
> I know there's many unknowns, but assume that you can get almost like for like -- (Marriott did invent skimming after all) -- perhaps you can get 4,250 Marriott DC Points for your 148,100 StarOptions?  That's enough for a 2BR in Aruba or St. Thomas (but not enough for a 2BR in Hawaii).
> 
> Would you enroll your week in the Marriott system, and decide each year whether you wanted to keep it as a Starwood week (or elect the Marriott points)?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Great stuff to read through on this thread. So I reached out to VSE to purchase more and spoke with them today. Naturally I wouldn’t buy from the developer but I wanted to see the going rate for things. Now keep this in mind, it came from sales and as they said “imagine what the price would be if we released the resorts we plan on adding”. I was unofficially told a new program is coming 3Q-4Q and will may allow cross booking. They said anything out there now is all rumor as no one really knows what to expect. Everything is a rumor and it was all speculation on the street. I’ve been saying for a while they should allow for inter program bookings within a 6 or 3 Mo booking window or something. It seems that was floated out there by the sales guy during hypothetical scenarios. “Maybe they allow booking at 6 Mo or some sort of “exchange”. 

Personally I would never convert my SO units to DP, I would go through II exchange as my times are very flexible. It will be interesting to see if they screw the buyers who purchased on resale.


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## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I don't expect them to require one to turn over their deeds in order to enroll. If they offer some type of enrollment, it will be like they did with the Marriott DC program. You don't sign over your deeds and you just elect points from one year to the next. I would expect an enrollment offer to be very attractive to those that own voluntary resale resorts. Perhaps not as much for those that own Mandatory or direct developer purchases.



I don’t see why voluntary would see a more attractive offer. I see those who own voluntary especially purchased on the resale market with no SO usage would have to pay more to play in the sandbox. Give me a less of an appealing offer to convert into a new program because I own two mandatory resorts and oh well, I’ll just use my SO and stay in my Westin resorts

Personally I think it will end up like an “exchange”. Exchange a unit for a lesser than or equal to unit from MVC to VSE and vice versa, and/or use your Bonvoy type points to open inventory that was bought back at say 6 mo prior to arrival. They are selling flex points for Sheraton and Westin as well as DP points. I think keeping things separate and upcharging for all to new and existing owners is how they will make money. Time will tell. I just wish they added more Westin timeshare resorts to the VSE portfolio.


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## ocdb8r

LisaRex said:


> Haven't owned a TS in a long time, but every time I think about maybe getting one, I read threads like this one that dissuade me from doing it.  Both Marriott and Starwood/Vistana complicated their own product by switching from deeded weeks to points mid-stream, which only muddied the water.



I don't blame you - I am well committed currently with units in Vistana, Hilton and Hyatt.  Every year we use them I compare rental rates at the resort with my true all in costs (including all the various membership and other ancillary fees on top of maintenance) and the relative value we receive has been steadily declining.  If I did the work to factor in the cost of capital (despite all being bought resale for pretty decent prices) there are some weeks where we effectively spent a bit more than had we just rented the unit.  The only saving grace has been that (so far) I have been able to rent weeks we're not able to use and cover the maintenance fees (and usually a small profit over).  However, it's NOT easy and the administration of it all sometimes makes me wonder if it's all worth it.  When the systems get further complicated and add additional fees, both the cost and administration start to tip the scales.



LisaRex said:


> They further complicated their own product by assigning "points" based on something OTHER than supply and demand.  In short:  If a 2 bdrm ocean front resort in Hawaii can command $3000 in rent, while a 2 bdrm pool view resort in Orlando can only command $1500, then the former should be assigned 2x the points.  End of story.  (I've owned in both places.)
> 
> When they pulled shenanigans like they did at WLR, and increased SOs in order to increase sales, IMO they ruined their own points system.  Because no one wants to exchange into a resort using points, if what they pay in MFs exceeds rental rates.
> 
> Had they based points on supply and demand and stuck to that method, then no one would have to get a stomachache thinking that they made a terrible mistake in buying, and no one would have worry that MVC is going to greatly devalue their resort.  So my advice to them, as if they want it, is to base points on something everyone understands and that is the good old US$.



I think the one thing you forget to factor in is that the "points" systems themselves CREATE supply and demand.  In other words, you can't make this calculation as if there is a completely independent market looking at the accommodations.  These timeshare systems create a completely captive audience with limited/fixed currency (which everyone invested in at different rates).  Bottom line: 1) supply and demand to book using points is likely to look very different from supply and demand using cash and 2) the assignment of points values to different seasons will in itself drive supply and demand.  DVC is a great example - fall season is typically one of the slowest for Disney (let's set aside the debate about it ALWAYS being busy these days) yet it is often one of the MOST in demand seasons in DVC (due in large part to the way they assigned points for that season).

As I mentioned in another post, MVC DC points actually does a good job of doing exactly what you said - seasons and weeks are meticulously split to adjust point costs throughout the year.  However, to me, it creates SUCH a complicated system that it's frustrating.  Sure, it's totally usable and likely matches true demand better, but it is in NO way easy to use and predictable.  If I want to "invest" in a timeshare today to "lock in" my vacation costs for years to come, it's impossible.  There's no way I could reasonably predict how many points I would need in any given year (more than a year out).




CPNY said:


> I don’t see why voluntary would see a more attractive offer. I see those who own voluntary especially purchased on the resale market with no SO usage would have to pay more to play in the sandbox. Give me a less of an appealing offer to convert into a new program because I own two mandatory resorts and oh well, I’ll just use my SO and stay in my Westin resorts.



Well, I could make one argument from Marriott's perspective - if a voluntary resort is enrolled ONLY in the DC (and not in SVN) then the DC system doesn't need to compete with SVN for that inventory.  I agree though, I don't think this will happen.  It would be such a slap in the face to people who purchased from the developer that MVC would never do it.  But it means there's going to be a serious game to be played managing BOTH SVN and DC inventory in such a way that people feel they're getting actual "access" to the other resorts.  I can't see any way that SVN/StarOption exchanges don't end up marginalized in the long run.


----------



## teddyo333

ocdb8r said:


> Well, I could make one argument from Marriott's perspective - if a voluntary resort is enrolled ONLY in the DC (and not in SVN) then the DC system doesn't need to compete with SVN for that inventory.  I agree though, I don't think this will happen.  It would be such a slap in the face to people who purchased from the developer that MVC would never do it.  But it means there's going to be a serious game to be played managing BOTH SVN and DC inventory in such a way that people feel they're getting actual "access" to the other resorts.  I can't see any way that SVN/StarOption exchanges don't end up marginalized in the long run.




I agree with your statement. I do feel that "SVN/StarOption exchanges" will become marginalized in the long run. This is the reason why I have been concentrating on purchasing more properties where I enjoy vacationing. For example, I originally purchased Vistana Villages (Bella) & Kierland in order to exchange into WKORV with Star Options. This worked for me since we tend to travel to Maui in May which is considered a low season. But with the consolidation of MVC & Vistana exchange programs I do feel there may be more competition for internal exchanges. It would make sense if they implemented the following structure for exchanges:

Home Resort - 12 Months
Star Options - 8 Months
Start Option & MVC - 6 Months

This would be fair for existing owners and would allow individuals to experience both programs. This would also allow owners who "invested" in their respective programs to have priority. But if Marriott decides to have a structure like the following:

Home Resort - 12 Months
Start Option & MVC - 8 Months

It will be make exchanges very difficult for existing owners as well as devalue Star Options to an extent. Popular places like Maui, Cancun or Scottsdale will be especially difficult at the 8 Month mark. Time will tell but profit is Marriott's priority and I'm quite certain that they will push the envelop as much as they can. It's funny how it always comes back to the best advice I was given when I started my timeshare hobby; "Purchase where you want to vacation on a regular basis".


----------



## CalGalTraveler

GregT said:


> CalGal,
> 
> Yes you can enroll your week but never actually redeem it for points, and then simply rent what is needed.  I rarely redeem my MOC 3BR because it is more valuable as a rental then as a points generator.  But I like to rent points from others and do so frequently to give myself new options.
> 
> I will be very curious to see what gets introduced.   Perhaps it will be a simple fixed ratio of StarOptions for DC points, and then offer “specials” for certain SVN properties that are particularly  attractive, something like 50% more points to redeem it for the first year (and then make that promotion permanent if they buy points).  They will want people to play with points b ecause it is their experience that once people try points, they stay with points (and buy more).
> 
> Interesting - all my speculation of course.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Thanks Greg for clarifying. If we don't lose our mandatory resort status, the ability to use and rent MVC points may be the best reason to enroll. Like you, we would rarely convert our Maui OF to trade. Of course enrollment would have to cost much less than buying a low points package resale.

To set boundaries to compare to enrollment, how much does the smallest trust resale point package cost? and what are the associated MF?


----------



## pchung6

I don't think MVC will just complete integrate the 2 systems (DC and SVN) when each has many happy owners.  Why would MVC anger their owners when both systems seem working fine separately?

I  think MVC's goal is to maximize profit.  So I predict it will be kind of buy-in option for DC or SVN to allow owners exchange DC points to SOs or vice versa while keeping SVN and DC separated.  If you are DC owner and you want go to Westin Cancun, buy the option for let's say ~$3000-5000.  Then you can exchange your DC points to StarOptions at a fixed rate and reserve at 8 months.  I think this could be much easy sale to many owners in each system.


----------



## 4Sunsets

DannyTS said:


> By the way, according to ARC, this year Cancun will be again the number one destination for American tourists, so clearly those that go there see things very differently than those who experience Mexico just on TV. So it is hard for me to see how the MVC owners will not benefit from the addition of the Mexican resorts.
> 
> "The top 10 summer destinations by airline ticket transactions include:
> 
> 
> Cancun, Mexico
> New York
> Orlando, Florida
> London
> Las Vegas
> Punta Cana, Dominican Republic
> Seattle
> Honolulu
> Los Angeles
> Chicago"
> 
> *Cancun Again Ranks as Number One Destination for US Fliers this Summer*
> *https://www2.arccorp.com/about-us/newsroom/2019-news-releases/pr20190605/#*




I'm sure it will be. Sort of like the car salesmen with the "If you can't give me an all 5-star rating" things... or like lemmings off a cliff...


----------



## 4Sunsets

LisaRex said:


> Haven't owned a TS in a long time, but every time I think about maybe getting one, I read threads like this one that dissuade me from doing it.  Both Marriott and Starwood/Vistana complicated their own product by switching from deeded weeks to points mid-stream, which only muddied the water.   They further complicated their own product by assigning "points" based on something OTHER than supply and demand.  In short:  If a 2 bdrm ocean front resort in Hawaii can command $3000 in rent, while a 2 bdrm pool view resort in Orlando can only command $1500, then the former should be assigned 2x the points.  End of story.  (I've owned in both places.)
> 
> When they pulled shenanigans like they did at WLR, and increased SOs in order to increase sales, IMO they ruined their own points system.  Because no one wants to exchange into a resort using points, if what they pay in MFs exceeds rental rates.
> 
> Had they based points on supply and demand and stuck to that method, then no one would have to get a stomachache thinking that they made a terrible mistake in buying, and no one would have worry that MVC is going to greatly devalue their resort.  So my advice to them, as if they want it, is to base points on something everyone understands and that is the good old US$.



We actually like the points system. We have both weeks and points. Hilton is the one where a like-sized platinum week in Hawaii is the same point cost as a like-sized platinum week in Timbuktu (with exceptions).

In the Marriott system, the point cost is based on season and location. A Hawaii platinum week is much more than a Timbuktu platinum week (generally). For example, it could be 7200 points for 1 platinum Maui week in a 2-bedroom but 4800 for 1 platinum week somewhere else.


----------



## CalGalTraveler

4Sunsets said:


> We actually like the points system. We have both weeks and points. Hilton is the one where a like-sized platinum week in Hawaii is the same point cost as a like-sized platinum week in Timbuktu (with exceptions).
> 
> In the Marriott system, the point cost is based on season and location. A Hawaii platinum week is much more than a Timbuktu platinum week (generally). For example, it could be 7200 points for 1 platinum Maui week in a 2-bedroom but 4800 for 1 platinum week somewhere else.



True, HGVC doesn't differentiate much based on location. Where they charge more points is on the newer properties.  The Grand Islander in Oahu, NYC, Barbados and upcoming Maui properties have/will have higher point requirements for an equivalently sized unit. The good news is that one can purchase another 7k+ Vegas or other inexpensive resale and still have great access to these.


----------



## TravelTime

I am wondering if Marriott International might buy the Hyatt brand. Hyatt is independent and it would be a nice fit with Marriott Vacation Club, if they keep Hyatt. Otherwise, might they re-brand HRC? Hyatt owner love their system and product. Hyatt has a great reputation in the hotel world.


----------



## CPNY

teddyo333 said:


> I agree with your statement. I do feel that "SVN/StarOption exchanges" will become marginalized in the long run. This is the reason why I have been concentrating on purchasing more properties where I enjoy vacationing. For example, I originally purchased Vistana Villages (Bella) & Kierland in order to exchange into WKORV with Star Options. This worked for me since we tend to travel to Maui in May which is considered a low season. But with the consolidation of MVC & Vistana exchange programs I do feel there may be more competition for internal exchanges. It would make sense if they implemented the following structure for exchanges:
> 
> Home Resort - 12 Months
> Star Options - 8 Months
> Start Option & MVC - 6 Months
> 
> This would be fair for existing owners and would allow individuals to experience both programs. This would also allow owners who "invested" in their respective programs to have priority. But if Marriott decides to have a structure like the following:
> 
> Home Resort - 12 Months
> Start Option & MVC - 8 Months
> 
> It will be make exchanges very difficult for existing owners as well as devalue Star Options to an extent. Popular places like Maui, Cancun or Scottsdale will be especially difficult at the 8 Month mark. Time will tell but profit is Marriott's priority and I'm quite certain that they will push the envelop as much as they can. It's funny how it always comes back to the best advice I was given when I started my timeshare hobby; "Purchase where you want to vacation on a regular basis".



I don’t see the latter scenario you laid out. The first scenario is something that was kicked around when I spoke with Vistana as they spoke in hypothetical situations. Personally I’d like to see it even lower at 3 months. I bought Vistana for a reason and not Marriott. Personally I don’t like Marriott hotels/resorts. So it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I’ll just enjoy Bahamas and exchange into aruba if need be.


----------



## CPNY

TravelTime said:


> I am wondering if Marriott International might buy the Hyatt brand. Hyatt is independent and it would be a nice fit with Marriott Vacation Club, if they keep Hyatt. Otherwise, might they re-brand HRC? Hyatt owner love their system and product. Hyatt has a great reputation in the hotel world.


I thought MVC owned Hyatt as well


----------



## CPNY

4Sunsets said:


> I'm sure it will be. Sort of like the car salesmen with the "If you can't give me an all 5-star rating" things... or like lemmings off a cliff...


Keep in mind that people love their all you can eat buffets. Cancun and the rest of Mexico is big on AI. Personally I don’t care for AI


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I thought MVC owned Hyatt as well


They do, but without Marriott International owning the Hyatt brand, it leads many of us to believe that VAC can't fully integrate it in to any combined system with Westin, Sheraton and the Marriott timeshare brands.


----------



## 4Sunsets

CPNY said:


> Keep in mind that people love their all you can eat buffets. Cancun and the rest of Mexico is big on AI. Personally I don’t care for AI



Same w my family


----------



## TravelTime

LisaRex said:


> Haven't owned a TS in a long time, but every time I think about maybe getting one, I read threads like this one that dissuade me from doing it.  Both Marriott and Starwood/Vistana complicated their own product by switching from deeded weeks to points mid-stream, which only muddied the water.   They further complicated their own product by assigning "points" based on something OTHER than supply and demand.  In short:  If a 2 bdrm ocean front resort in Hawaii can command $3000 in rent, while a 2 bdrm pool view resort in Orlando can only command $1500, then the former should be assigned 2x the points.  End of story.  (I've owned in both places.)
> 
> When they pulled shenanigans like they did at WLR, and increased SOs in order to increase sales, IMO they ruined their own points system.  Because no one wants to exchange into a resort using points, if what they pay in MFs exceeds rental rates.
> 
> Had they based points on supply and demand and stuck to that method, then no one would have to get a stomachache thinking that they made a terrible mistake in buying, and no one would have worry that MVC is going to greatly devalue their resort.  So my advice to them, as if they want it, is to base points on something everyone understands and that is the good old US$.



Didn’t they generally do this? Their rental rate and Expedia is always high than MFs.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> They do, but without Marriott International owning the Hyatt brand, it leads many of us to believe that VAC can't fully integrate it in to any combined system with Westin, Sheraton and the Marriott timeshare brands.


I thought I had read that MVC was planning on selling the Hyatt TS portion.


----------



## TravelTime

4Sunsets said:


> I'm sure it will be. Sort of like the car salesmen with the "If you can't give me an all 5-star rating" things... or like lemmings off a cliff...



The places on this top 10 list are accessible and mass market destinations and large cities.


----------



## TravelTime

LisaRex said:


> Haven't owned a TS in a long time, but every time I think about maybe getting one, I read threads like this one that dissuade me from doing it.  Both Marriott and Starwood/Vistana complicated their own product by switching from deeded weeks to points mid-stream, which only muddied the water.   They further complicated their own product by assigning "points" based on something OTHER than supply and demand.  In short:  If a 2 bdrm ocean front resort in Hawaii can command $3000 in rent, while a 2 bdrm pool view resort in Orlando can only command $1500, then the former should be assigned 2x the points.  End of story.  (I've owned in both places.)
> 
> When they pulled shenanigans like they did at WLR, and increased SOs in order to increase sales, IMO they ruined their own points system.  Because no one wants to exchange into a resort using points, if what they pay in MFs exceeds rental rates.
> 
> Had they based points on supply and demand and stuck to that method, then no one would have to get a stomachache thinking that they made a terrible mistake in buying, and no one would have worry that MVC is going to greatly devalue their resort.  So my advice to them, as if they want it, is to base points on something everyone understands and that is the good old US$.



I agree with you in general. However, In high season WLR is booked with owners so they might have done okay.


----------



## Sapper

MVC now owns HRC through the purchase of ILG. When ILG made the deal with Hyatt to purchase HRC, part of that deal was that no other hotel branded entity could control the Hyatt brand that was part of HRC. Now one does, but you don’t hear Hyatt threatening a lawsuit. This means either there is a deal to sell off HRC, there is a deal to eventually remove the Hyatt name and do something with the properties (ie, rebrand or create a new brand), or MVC is paying Hyatt enough money for the use of their brand to keep them quiet.  My guess is somewhere between #2 and #3. If I were MVC, I would only want to pay what must be a massive branding fee for just long enough to create a new brand with the properties. Rebranding under an existing brand (ie, Westin) would be more difficult than slapping a new name on the product and keeping the contracts the same. It will probably take place sometime after Marriott gets done with Vistana (overlay, integration, whatever their plans may be). 

Also, if the idea that Marriott will start to target each timeshare brand to different target markets is true, I can see whatever the Hyatt brand will become as an opportunity for Marriott.


----------



## controller1

TravelTime said:


> I am wondering if Marriott International might buy the Hyatt brand. Hyatt is independent and it would be a nice fit with Marriott Vacation Club, if they keep Hyatt. Otherwise, might they re-brand HRC? Hyatt owner love their system and product. Hyatt has a great reputation in the hotel world.



That may be a difficult purchase with the Pritzker family owning most of Hyatt.


----------



## ocdb8r

I don't see any short or medium term chance Marriott International gets anywhere near the Hyatt name....but never say never. 

As has been pointed out, the MVC purchase of ILG is a complicated one.  I guarantee you that they didn't just complete the purchase on the basis they would "figure it out" later as regards Hyatt Vacation Club.  There most certainly was an agreement struck between MVC and Hyatt as to the brand licensing at least for the short/medium term.  I suspect Hyatt enjoys a nice revenue stream that they had no desire to jeopardize as the larger hotel market adjusts to the Marriott/Starwood merger.  Likely they agreed to allow MVC to continue the brand license under some strict guidelines for a 3-5 year period.  MVC clearly intends to (and needs to) sort out how to "harmonize" the Marriott and Vistana timeshare portfolios as a priority and will then turn to Hyatt subsequently.

One thing I think is often forgotten (or just glossed over) on these Boards is that MVC is NOT owned or controlled by Marriott.  It's a completely separate legal entity with completely separate shareholding, management and Board of Directors.  They simply license the Marriott name...and of course have very strong historic ties.  However, there's nothing preventing them from pursuing a strategy independent of Marriott International.  I mention this because it is possible MVC finds a way to get Hyatt comfortable with a longer term licensing strategy and they continue to use the Hyatt name for "vacation ownership" uses.  I'm curious to see if MVC pursues the "borg like" strategy of Marriott International or if it perhaps decides there is some value in maintaining some brand distinction.  Nothing prevents them from harmonizing all the back end operations while maintaining a distinct brand identity for Hyatt. 

In fact, that last part is one of the single biggest open questions in my mind for MVC.  Marriott International has been very clear that it intends to maintain the 30+ separate brands under the hotel umbrellas and contends that it can maintain brand distinction and differentiation.  This is something I think the MVC (and the timeshare industry in general) has done a fairly poor job at.  MVC has always lumped everything under the Marriott name (save for a few Ritz destination club locations which seem to me to have been largely been disastrous ventures); while Vistana has Westin, Sheraton and Vistana branded locations, I couldn't tell you how they really differ from a brand identity standpoint.  With multiple brands now under it's belt, I wonder if/how MVC will differentiate them.

One thing we've not talked about in this thread is how the execution of the Marriott International merger may be effecting the timing and approach of MVC as it comes to Vistana.  I don't think it's off base to say the execution hasn't been great and many loyalty members on BOTH sides are not happy about vaiorus things.  If I were MVC, I'd be watching to make sure to avoid the same issues and may even be deciding whether or not there is some value in maintaining distinct portfolios.


----------



## controller1

ocdb8r said:


> I don't see any short or medium term chance Marriott International gets anywhere near the Hyatt name....but never say never.
> 
> As has been pointed out, the MVC purchase of ILG is a complicated one.  I guarantee you that they didn't just complete the purchase on the basis they would "figure it out" later as regards Hyatt Vacation Club.  There most certainly was an agreement struck between MVC and Hyatt as to the brand licensing at least for the short/medium term.  I suspect Hyatt enjoys a nice revenue stream that they had no desire to jeopardize as the larger hotel market adjusts to the Marriott/Starwood merger.  Likely they agreed to allow MVC to continue the brand license under some strict guidelines for a 3-5 year period.  MVC clearly intends to (and needs to) sort out how to "harmonize" the Marriott and Vistana timeshare portfolios as a priority and will then turn to Hyatt subsequently.
> 
> One thing I think is often forgotten (or just glossed over) on these Boards is that MVC is NOT owned or controlled by Marriott.  It's a completely separate legal entity with completely separate shareholding, management and Board of Directors.  They simply license the Marriott name...and of course have very strong historic ties.  However, there's nothing preventing them from pursuing a strategy independent of Marriott International.  I mention this because it is possible MVC finds a way to get Hyatt comfortable with a longer term licensing strategy and they continue to use the Hyatt name for "vacation ownership" uses.  I'm curious to see if MVC pursues the "borg like" strategy of Marriott International or if it perhaps decides there is some value in maintaining some brand distinction.  Nothing prevents them from harmonizing all the back end operations while maintaining a distinct brand identity for Hyatt.
> 
> In fact, that last part is one of the single biggest open questions in my mind for MVC.  Marriott International has been very clear that it intends to maintain the 30+ separate brands under the hotel umbrellas and contends that it can maintain brand distinction and differentiation.  This is something I think the MVC (and the timeshare industry in general) has done a fairly poor job at.  MVC has always lumped everything under the Marriott name (save for a few Ritz destination club locations which seem to me to have been largely been disastrous ventures); while Vistana has Westin, Sheraton and Vistana branded locations, I couldn't tell you how they really differ from a brand identity standpoint.  With multiple brands now under it's belt, I wonder if/how MVC will differentiate them.
> 
> One thing we've not talked about in this thread is how the execution of the Marriott International merger may be effecting the timing and approach of MVC as it comes to Vistana.  I don't think it's off base to say the execution hasn't been great and many loyalty members on BOTH sides are not happy about vaiorus things.  If I were MVC, I'd be watching to make sure to avoid the same issues and may even be deciding whether or not there is some value in maintaining distinct portfolios.



One thing that could perhaps simplify the marketing of Hyatt Vacation Club would be if MVC dropped Marriott from its name.


----------



## Ken555

controller1 said:


> One thing that could perhaps simplify the marketing of Hyatt Vacation Club would be if MVC dropped Marriott from its name.



Yes! Perhaps they could simply assume the Vistana name! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

controller1 said:


> One thing that could perhaps simplify the marketing of Hyatt Vacation Club would be if MVC dropped Marriott from its name.


I don't think Marriott Vacation Club would drop the Marriott in its name, but Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) certainly could. I think perhaps that is what you meant? Under VAC would exist the four vacation clubs, Marriott Vacation Club, SHeraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club and Hyatt Residence Club.

In the mid 1990s when Marriott Corporation spun off their airport vendor service company, that company became Host Marriott Services. After several years it was renamed to HMS Host. To this day when you buy something at many airport gift shops, food court restaurants or even the Starbucks in an airport, your receipt will show HMS Host. VAC could do something similar to remove "Marriott" from "Vacations Worldwide".


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> Yes! Perhaps they could simply assume the Vistana name!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That would be a good idea! I know the Vistana name wasn't well received in the beginning, but it does have a lot of history behind it.


----------



## 4Sunsets

ocdb8r said:


> I don't see any short or medium term chance Marriott International gets anywhere near the Hyatt name....but never say never.
> 
> As has been pointed out, the MVC purchase of ILG is a complicated one.  I guarantee you that they didn't just complete the purchase on the basis they would "figure it out" later as regards Hyatt Vacation Club.  There most certainly was an agreement struck between MVC and Hyatt as to the brand licensing at least for the short/medium term.  I suspect Hyatt enjoys a nice revenue stream that they had no desire to jeopardize as the larger hotel market adjusts to the Marriott/Starwood merger.  Likely they agreed to allow MVC to continue the brand license under some strict guidelines for a 3-5 year period.  MVC clearly intends to (and needs to) sort out how to "harmonize" the Marriott and Vistana timeshare portfolios as a priority and will then turn to Hyatt subsequently.
> 
> One thing I think is often forgotten (or just glossed over) on these Boards is that MVC is NOT owned or controlled by Marriott.  It's a completely separate legal entity with completely separate shareholding, management and Board of Directors.  They simply license the Marriott name...and of course have very strong historic ties.  However, there's nothing preventing them from pursuing a strategy independent of Marriott International.  I mention this because it is possible MVC finds a way to get Hyatt comfortable with a longer term licensing strategy and they continue to use the Hyatt name for "vacation ownership" uses.  I'm curious to see if MVC pursues the "borg like" strategy of Marriott International or if it perhaps decides there is some value in maintaining some brand distinction.  Nothing prevents them from harmonizing all the back end operations while maintaining a distinct brand identity for Hyatt.
> 
> In fact, that last part is one of the single biggest open questions in my mind for MVC.  Marriott International has been very clear that it intends to maintain the 30+ separate brands under the hotel umbrellas and contends that it can maintain brand distinction and differentiation.  This is something I think the MVC (and the timeshare industry in general) has done a fairly poor job at.  MVC has always lumped everything under the Marriott name (save for a few Ritz destination club locations which seem to me to have been largely been disastrous ventures); while Vistana has Westin, Sheraton and Vistana branded locations, I couldn't tell you how they really differ from a brand identity standpoint.  With multiple brands now under it's belt, I wonder if/how MVC will differentiate them.
> 
> One thing we've not talked about in this thread is how the execution of the Marriott International merger may be effecting the timing and approach of MVC as it comes to Vistana.  I don't think it's off base to say the execution hasn't been great and many loyalty members on BOTH sides are not happy about vaiorus things.  If I were MVC, I'd be watching to make sure to avoid the same issues and may even be deciding whether or not there is some value in maintaining distinct portfolios.



It'll be interesting to see what happens 

One quibble about RC. Not sure I'd label it disastrous. All the RC TS properties are superior, luxury. MI still have Residences all over the world as well. The brand is very much alive and well. We enjoy staying there and the RC TS are some of the best around.


----------



## Ken555

dioxide45 said:


> That would be a good idea! I know the Vistana name wasn't well received in the beginning, but it does have a lot of history behind it.



I need to work on my sarcasm.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dioxide45

Ken555 said:


> I need to work on my sarcasm.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I knew it was sarcasm, but I still like the idea! *Vistana Vacations Worldwide!*


----------



## controller1

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think Marriott Vacation Club would drop the Marriott in its name, but Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) certainly could. I think perhaps that is what you meant? Under VAC would exist the four vacation clubs, Marriott Vacation Club, SHeraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club and Hyatt Residence Club.
> 
> In the mid 1990s when Marriott Corporation spun off their airport vendor service company, that company became Host Marriott Services. After several years it was renamed to HMS Host. To this day when you buy something at many airport gift shops, food court restaurants or even the Starbucks in an airport, your receipt will show HMS Host. VAC could do something similar to remove "Marriott" from "Vacations Worldwide".



You're correct.  I meant VAC dropping the Marriott name and then managing four vacation clubs.


----------



## ocdb8r

FYI - interesting reports and discussion going on in the MVC forum here:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/is-2019-the-year-of-the-timeshare.292460/page-8


----------



## CPNY

ocdb8r said:


> FYI - interesting reports and discussion going on in the MVC forum here:
> 
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/is-2019-the-year-of-the-timeshare.292460/page-8



Basically Its a bunch of Marriott owners saying “we already paid” you Vistana people were acquired, deal with it, pay up to come to our resorts” to be completely honest.... I don’t like Marriott resorts. Don’t think any are as nice as a Westin.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> Basically Its a bunch of Marriott owners saying “we already paid” you Vistana people were acquired, deal with it, pay up to come to our resorts” to be completely honest.... I don’t like Marriott resorts. Don’t think any are as nice as a Westin.



I think I need to move back to Vistana board to avoid further bullying. Basically just few believe they have the entitlement to say, Marriott can access VSN for free because we bought you, face it, your timeshare got bought out, that’s reality. Vistana people, just to pay up.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> I think I need to move back to Vistana board to avoid further bullying. Basically just few believe they have the entitlement to say, Marriott can access VSN for free because we bought you, face it, your timeshare got bought out, that’s reality. Vistana people, just to pay up.


That’s exactly what they say here and other boards on other platforms. When you call them out, you’re the negative one. Hah funny thing is you weren’t even negative in that post. You were saying it wasn’t right that others were being entitled. I don’t want a joint program. Keep them separate. You’re talking about people that think st Kitts is great lol. The seaweed dump. Keep them out of my favorite resorts lol. They want everything because they haven’t had it ever. Apparently they are having inventory booking issues from what I’m hearing on other boards.. this is what we have to look forward to. Never liked Marriott as a company so this isn’t great.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> That’s exactly what they say here and other boards on other platforms. When you call them out, you’re the negative one. Hah funny thing is you weren’t even negative in that post. You were saying it wasn’t right that others were being entitled. I don’t want a joint program. Keep them separate. You’re talking about people that think st Kitts is great lol. The seaweed dump. Keep them out of my favorite resorts lol. They want everything because they haven’t had it ever. Apparently they are having inventory booking issues from what I’m hearing on other boards.. this is what we have to look forward to. Never liked Marriott as a company so this isn’t great.



These are the people can’t wait to occupy our Westin resorts. I can smell they want our Westin. Any Westin is much better than their resorts in somewhere nowhere. They got mad when I called it’s $5.99 buffet with 200 items. I want SVN separated and I’m really fine to just stay at our Westin. If we don’t enroll, they will have inventory issue because they will be left with all unsold flex inventory filled with Palm Springs or Orlando.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> These are the people can’t wait to occupy our Westin resorts. I can smell they want our Westin. Any Westin is much better than their resorts in somewhere nowhere. They got mad when I called it’s $5.99 buffet with 200 items. I want SVN separated and I’m really fine to just stay at our Westin. If we don’t enroll, they will have issue because they will be left with all unsold flex inventory filled with Palm Springs or Orlando.


The problem with people is they listen to these sales people. They won’t want to be “left out” so they will give their deeds back and we will lose inventory. If we have to enroll we will have to give out deeds back and buy into their new program. I’m not giving up my mandatory deeds. As a matter of face I’m picking up more. More options at a lower maint fee.

I agree, they all want Westin and don’t want to pay, because MVC has always made them pay. I hate that they bought us. They think they are better because they were the buyers. In reality it’s usually the smaller more unique, better quality product that gets bought up by the big guys and then quality goes to junk.

It’s like frito lay, they bought up all the smaller craft potato chip companies eating into their business. Now you have mass produced garbage being sold as artisan chips but it’s still made by frito lay. We are the quality chip, they were the cheese doodles with a bigger market lol. Of course they had more money, they nickeled and dimed their customers


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> These are the people can’t wait to occupy our Westin resorts. I can smell they want our Westin. Any Westin is much better than their resorts in somewhere nowhere. They got mad when I called it’s $5.99 buffet with 200 items. I want SVN separated and I’m really fine to just stay at our Westin. If we don’t enroll, they will have inventory issue because they will be left with all unsold flex inventory filled with Palm Springs or Orlando.


On another note, do you think Sheraton villages would delay closing on resales to screw anyone and approve it after a joint program? NoT that it matters I’m not enrolling it


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> On another note, do you think Sheraton villages would delay closing on resales to screw anyone and approve it after a joint program? NoT that it matters I’m not enrolling it


I just closed one, it closed in 4 weeks.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> I just closed one, it closed in 4 weeks.


What did you pick up?


----------



## dioxide45

To be fair (while sometimes the written word can come across harsh), I think the reasoning for "Marriott weeks getting access to Vistana for free" is in reality because Marriott weeks already paid an enrollment fee to join the DC program. If they just add Westin and Sheraton to the DC program, then Marriott owners who are already enrolled would automatically get access with their current enrollment. If Vistana owners want to be able to exchange across all products, then they would have to pay the enrollment fee just like Marriott owners did up to nine years ago.

Is that really how I think it will play out. Probably not. I really would prefer a cross program where you can book inventory between systems at six months out. A Marriott owners DC points convert to _n_ StarOptions and a Vistana owners StarOptions convert to _n_ DC points. That would be my ideal system and would protect everyone's existing usage rights either within their home resorts or in DC or VSN. If you want to go between the two systems, you kind of end up with leftovers. If they went this route, expect some type of transaction fee, perhaps on a per point basis to convert in a year.

All of this is of course speculation, as was everything in the thread over on the Marriott board. Nothing was seen in writing as it related to an integrated program between the two systems.


----------



## billymach4

dioxide45 said:


> T
> 
> All of this is of course speculation, as was everything in the thread over on the Marriott board. Nothing was seen in writing as it related to an integrated program between the two systems.



Ahh... Rumors, Propaganda, Gossip. Sounds good to dream!


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> To be fair (while sometimes the written word can come across harsh), I think the reasoning for "Marriott weeks getting access to Vistana for free" is in reality because Marriott weeks already paid an enrollment fee to join the DC program. If they just add Westin and Sheraton to the DC program, then Marriott owners who are already enrolled would automatically get access with their current enrollment. If Vistana owners want to be able to exchange across all products, then they would have to pay the enrollment fee just like Marriott owners did up to nine years ago.
> 
> Is that really how I think it will play out. Probably not. I really would prefer a cross program where you can book inventory between systems at six months out. A Marriott owners DC points convert to _n_ StarOptions and a Vistana owners StarOptions convert to _n_ DC points. That would be my ideal system and would protect everyone's existing usage rights either within their home resorts or in DC or VSN. If you want to go between the two systems, you kind of end up with leftovers. If they went this route, expect some type of transaction fee, perhaps on a per point basis to convert in a year.
> 
> All of this is of course speculation, as was everything in the thread over on the Marriott board. Nothing was seen in writing as it related to an integrated program between the two systems.


That’s kind of what I think could happen as well, there be an cross over booking fee, just like we pay to bank points. As long as the inventory doesn’t come from the same trust I’m booking in with my staroptions then sure let them book. They can come to our resorts, but they better clean up after themselves lol. 

It seems we have been hearing a common theme among everyone who has just been to their owners/sales update on the MVC side. It would be interested to see what Vistana owners are being T/Sold


----------



## DannyTS

dioxide45 said:


> I really would prefer a cross program where you can book inventory between systems at six months out. A Marriott owners DC points convert to _n_ StarOptions and a Vistana owners StarOptions convert to _n_ DC points. That would be my ideal system and would protect everyone's existing usage rights



This would be my preference as well. However, this would have a major shortcoming since there is very little desirable inventory at 6 months. If I have to pay hundreds of $ or few thousand $ to enroll my Vistana weeks to DC and I only have access at 6 months to Orlando, that is not a good thing.


----------



## DannyTS

This is why I think they will keep the DC as the main trading system and offer enrollment ($) to Vistana owners. Once you deposit your weeks in the system you would have access to the same inventory as everyone else. This makes more sense in the long run both from a sales prospective and from a administrative prospective since it does not create even more complexity. You would still have the VSN  but it time it may become less relevant to the majority of Vistana owners.


----------



## SteelerGal

@DannyTS , I agree.  DC will eventually be the primary since it’s already works.  Ppl need to remember that it has taken a decade for DC to reach current levels(60/40 split).  Every TS Company has a Points System and due to maturation, it’s where the industry is going.  Shell owners are receiving the same pressure to convert to some whack Wyndham program. There are those whom have converted because it opens access to all of Wyndham for a small fee, while others are content w/ Shell.   Different Strokes for Different Folks.  
Personally, my only interest is to see how to incorporate my non mandatories.


----------



## SteelerGal

My question if they keep Flex how will it roll into DC.  Will MVC try to convert to DC first via a one time offer which will bypass Flex?  Will Flex ultimately have access to DC?  So many questions?


----------



## CPNY

SteelerGal said:


> @DannyTS , I agree.  DC will eventually be the primary since it’s already works.  Ppl need to remember that it has taken a decade for DC to reach current levels(60/40 split).  Every TS Company has a Points System and due to maturation, it’s where the industry is going.  Shell owners are receiving the same pressure to convert to some whack Wyndham program. There are those whom have converted because it opens access to all of Wyndham for a small fee, while others are content w/ Shell.   Different Strokes for Different Folks.
> Personally, my only interest is to see how to incorporate my non mandatories.


Agree, I just need to pick up more mandatories lol I bet owning lagunamar is probably a good idea, MVC doesn’t have a location there to my knowledge. Bet those would “convert” high for the inventory.


----------



## bizaro86

CPNY said:


> Agree, I just need to pick up more mandatories lol I bet owning lagunamar is probably a good idea, MVC doesn’t have a location there to my knowledge. Bet those would “convert” high for the inventory.



I really considered buying a plat lagunamar as a speculation on the conversion. We would probably use it at least some of the time, so the worst case scenario isn't that bad. If the didn't offer a conversion or it was too costly we'd just use it. 

However, what held me back was the risk that even if they do offer a conversion they won't be attractive on points. I think the risk is they fill the need for Mexico inventory by using unsold Adventuras inventory somehow, which they probably still have tons given they just did two hotel conversions. And I think they'll feel restricted on Cancun points by the (relatively low, imo) DC points values they gave to their own Caribbean properties.


----------



## CPNY

bizaro86 said:


> I really considered buying a plat lagunamar as a speculation on the conversion. We would probably use it at least some of the time, so the worst case scenario isn't that bad. If the didn't offer a conversion or it was too costly we'd just use it.
> 
> However, what held me back was the risk that even if they do offer a conversion they won't be attractive on points. I think the risk is they fill the need for Mexico inventory by using unsold Adventuras inventory somehow, which they probably still have tons given they just did two hotel conversions. And I think they'll feel restricted on Cancun points by the (relatively low, imo) DC points values they gave to their own Caribbean properties.


To your point, the new conversions they did from hotels in Cancun and now puerto Vallarta coming up, the inventory is there. I don’t think they want to use that inventory to give free to their DC as some of the entitled DC owners think they will get because sales people are telling them that. I think they will take that inventory and do what’s best for MVG with it. That’s to SELL IT and make money. Take inventory from owners looking to “exchange” etc. I think rather than buying into one program as many believe will happen, they will want a robust offering and offer different programs to appeal to more buyers. You can have different programs that are integrated if you want to pay the fee to have cross booking. This will appeal to more People new to the timeshare game. Start small with a flex plan, then upsell them on being able to convert or integrate to all resorts either at the initial sale or down the road.

There is a reason why McDonald’s has a dollar menu..... ever go in to buy a burger for a buck and leave? NO, because hey, it’s only a buck so give me two of those one of these and a large drink, oh a large fry too. Bam your dollar menu just ended up in a 12 dollar transaction.

That’s why having multiple programs is smart. There  is a reason why people bought into Westin and not Marriott. Just like some will only want the Westin product. That’s my two cents, but idk I’m not in corporate office making decisions. But if I was, my focus would be to offer something robust that will appeal to more customers while maximizing profits and keeping existing customers happy so they tell other guests at the property how much they love their ownership. How may conversations at the pool have you had with non owners, selling them through conversation how much you enjoy it so you bought more. Then they respond yea we talked about owning but didn’t know about timeshares or heard only bad things. Bam three days later you see them at the bar and they tell you they went on the presentation and bought. It’s happened to me quite a few times. Hell I was offered a job selling when I went to st Martin lol.


----------



## ocdb8r

CPNY said:


> To your point, the new conversions they did from hotels in Cancun and now puerto Vallarta coming up, the inventory is there. I don’t think they want to use that inventory to give free to their DC as some of the entitled DC owners think they will get because sales people are telling them that. I think they will take that inventory and do what’s best for MVG with it. That’s to SELL IT and make money. Take inventory from owners looking to “exchange” etc. I think rather than buying into one program as many believe will happen, they will want a robust offering and offer different programs to appeal to more buyers. You can have different programs that are integrated if you want to pay the fee to have cross booking. This will appeal to more People new to the timeshare game. Start small with a flex plan, then upsell them on being able to convert or integrate to all resorts either at the initial sale or down the road.
> 
> There is a reason why McDonald’s has a dollar menu..... ever go in to buy a burger for a buck and leave? NO, because hey, it’s only a buck so give me two of those one of these and a large drink, oh a large fry too. Bam your dollar menu just ended up in a 12 dollar transaction.
> 
> That’s why having multiple programs is smart. There  is a reason why people bought into Westin and not Marriott. Just like some will only want the Westin product. That’s my two cents, but idk I’m not in corporate office making decisions. But if I was, my focus would be to offer something robust that will appeal to more customers while maximizing profits and keeping existing customers happy so they tell other guests at the property how much they love their ownership. How may conversations at the pool have you had with non owners, selling them through conversation how much you enjoy it so you bought more. Then they respond yea we talked about owning but didn’t know about timeshares or heard only bad things. Bam three days later you see them at the bar and they tell you they went on the presentation and bought. It’s happened to me quite a few times. Hell I was offered a job selling when I went to st Martin lol.



I don't have any crystal ball and I don't dispute some of the logic in what you've said, but it also isn't consistent with how MVC has operated in the past.  When they were one company with Marriott International, they had access to a number of brands and could have created multiple differentiated products, yet they rarely strayed from the Marriott name.  The attempt to create a more luxury product with the Ritz name was largely a failure.  They've also not made any attempt to charge a fee for access to new resorts as they've come online over the years.  As new developments were completed they were all dumped into the single DC program.  To me, their tactic has quite clearly been to capitalize on the variety of resorts and locations they can offer as a selling point.

I think you forget there is a cost to maintaining different programs - license fees, brand standards, different reservation systems, different sets of sales staff...etc.  It all adds up and while some of these costs are passed on to the HOAs, it still affects overall margins on the management fees and sales.  I agree it's a monumental task and some of the legal impediments (existing systems, deed provisions...etc) are likely monumental, but I would bet they're trying to move to as simple and unified a system as possible.


----------



## bizaro86

CPNY said:


> To your point, the new conversions they did from hotels in Cancun and now puerto Vallarta coming up, the inventory is there. I don’t think they want to use that inventory to give free to their DC as some of the entitled DC owners think they will get because sales people are telling them that. I think they will take that inventory and do what’s best for MVG with it. That’s to SELL IT and make money. Take inventory from owners looking to “exchange” etc. I think rather than buying into one program as many believe will happen, they will want a robust offering and offer different programs to appeal to more buyers. You can have different programs that are integrated if you want to pay the fee to have cross booking. This will appeal to more People new to the timeshare game. Start small with a flex plan, then upsell them on being able to convert or integrate to all resorts either at the initial sale or down the road.
> 
> There is a reason why McDonald’s has a dollar menu..... ever go in to buy a burger for a buck and leave? NO, because hey, it’s only a buck so give me two of those one of these and a large drink, oh a large fry too. Bam your dollar menu just ended up in a 12 dollar transaction.
> 
> That’s why having multiple programs is smart. There  is a reason why people bought into Westin and not Marriott. Just like some will only want the Westin product. That’s my two cents, but idk I’m not in corporate office making decisions. But if I was, my focus would be to offer something robust that will appeal to more customers while maximizing profits and keeping existing customers happy so they tell other guests at the property how much they love their ownership. How may conversations at the pool have you had with non owners, selling them through conversation how much you enjoy it so you bought more. Then they respond yea we talked about owning but didn’t know about timeshares or heard only bad things. Bam three days later you see them at the bar and they tell you they went on the presentation and bought. It’s happened to me quite a few times. Hell I was offered a job selling when I went to st Martin lol.



For sure. It will depend on what the most profitable way to sell the Mexico properties is. I don't think they can put the Mexico properties in the DC Trust (which is why Aventuras is separate and why aruba/St Kitts still sell MVC weeks).

I think some sort of cross booking or conversion is likely with an additional fee.


----------



## DannyTS

since i own several Lagunamar weeks I should embrace your theory @CPNY . Yet, is there any evidence that this happened in the past? Are the more unique MVC locations given a premium beyond the quality of the resort itself? Lagunamar has enough great feature to deserve a good valuation: great infinity pools, great location across a mall, short driving distance to the airport, tons of things to do in the area, virtually all condos have ocean views , all 2 bdrs are lockout, no mosquitoes etc. Of course the perceived country risk is a (-) even if not experienced by those travelling to WLR.

@bizaro86 . Yes, they have plenty of unsold Aventuras, but how much of that is actually Lagunamar platinum season? If I were to speculate, given that Westin Cancun and Westin Los Cabos are new resorts, I would say that they make up 80-90% of that trust. If they do not have much Lagunamar in that trust, they will still need the owners to deposit them for DC points.


----------



## DannyTS

bizaro86 said:


> For sure. It will depend on what the most profitable way to sell the Mexico properties is. I don't think they can put the Mexico properties in the DC Trust (which is why Aventuras is separate and why aruba/St Kitts still sell MVC weeks).
> 
> I think some sort of cross booking or conversion is likely with an additional fee.


Legal question to those that know the answer. Even if MVC cannot put the Mexico properties in the DC trust, can they instead put the Aventuras trust in the DC trust?


----------



## SteelerGal

ocdb8r said:


> I don't have any crystal ball and I don't dispute some of the logic in what you've said, but it also isn't consistent with how MVC has operated in the past.  When they were one company with Marriott International, they had access to a number of brands and could have created multiple differentiated products, yet they rarely strayed from the Marriott name.  The attempt to create a more luxury product with the Ritz name was largely a failure.  They've also not made any attempt to charge a fee for access to new resorts as they've come online over the years.  As new developments were completed they were all dumped into the single DC program.  To me, their tactic has quite clearly been to capitalize on the variety of resorts and locations they can offer as a selling point.
> 
> I think you forget there is a cost to maintaining different programs - license fees, brand standards, different reservation systems, different sets of sales staff...etc.  It all adds up and while some of these costs are passed on to the HOAs, it still affects overall margins on the management fees and sales.  I agree it's a monumental task and some of the legal impediments (existing systems, deed provisions...etc) are likely monumental, but I would bet they're trying to move to as simple and unified a system as possible.





bazzap said:


> This fairly recent Brand Strategy presentation gives some insight into MI’s plans for the brands
> https://marriott.gcs-web.com/static-files/580e2d20-68e2-4150-b78c-cbde8bd62f87


  This was from a Marriott thread.  MVC is keeping the hotel segmentation so I don’t doubt they keep it on the TS.  Just have to see how they overlay.


----------



## controller1

SteelerGal said:


> This was from a Marriott thread.  MVC is keeping the hotel segmentation so I don’t doubt they keep it on the TS.  Just have to see how they overlay.



MVC is not keeping the hotel segmentation.  MAR (Marriott International) is keeping the hotel segmentation.  MVC (Marriott Vacation Club) is part of VAC (Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation).  MVC is the acronym for the vacation club is and is the equivalent of Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club within Vistana.


----------



## ocdb8r

Yes - MAR and MVC are two very different beasts.  

MAR is a pure service company (no real sales and little to no hotel ownership anymore)...and despite keeping the distinct brands they merged the reservation system and the loyalty program into one.

MVC is resort development, sales and service which means keeping multiple brands is more difficult and more costly.  In addition, the distinction here is not just the brands but the full systems themselves.

Again, no saying it couldn't happen, but there are very different company mechanics going on between the hotel management company (MAR) and the timeshare company (MVC).


----------



## SueDonJ

ocdb8r said:


> Yes - MAR and MVC are two very different beasts.
> 
> MAR is a pure service company (no real sales and little to no hotel ownership anymore)...and despite keeping the distinct brands they merged the reservation system and the loyalty program into one.
> 
> MVC is resort development, sales and service which means keeping multiple brands is more difficult and more costly.  In addition, the distinction here is not just the brands but the full systems themselves.
> 
> Again, no saying it couldn't happen, but there are very different company mechanics going on between the hotel management company (MAR) and the timeshare company (MVC).



To be even more precise, Marriott Vacation Club (MVC) is the designation for the Marriott-branded timeshares that came under the Marriott, Int'l. (MAR) umbrella, along with the Ritz-Carlton branded timeshares. When the entire timeshare segment was spun off in 2011 it was named Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC.) MVC is still used to designate the Marriott-branded timeshares from the Ritz-Carlton-branded, but the company name isn't MVC.


----------



## SteelerGal

Thank you for the explanation.  However segmentation would not be unusual especially since many of the TS are still share hotel facilities.  The overlay, DC, may act as the joiner of all major brands.  
Worldmark/Wyndham are still segmented.   Yes, there is eventual incorporation into one program however it can take years.


----------



## SueDonJ

SteelerGal said:


> Thank you for the explanation.  However segmentation would not be unusual especially since many of the TS are still share hotel facilities.  The overlay, DC, may act as the joiner of all major brands.
> Worldmark/Wyndham are still segmented.   Yes, there is eventual incorporation into one program however it can take years.



I honestly would be more surprised to see a company name change that doesn't use the word "Marriott" in it, than I'd be to see them remain as Marriott Vacations Worldwide with all of the same brands that exist now coming under the MVW umbrella. The company culture and reputation was built on that name and the family is still involved. (I also wouldn't be surprised to see them at some point in the future unload segments, but that's not what the recent TUG threads are really about.)

Like you say, the MVW Destination Club Exchange Company could be the vehicle for integrating all of the timeshare companies that currently come under the Marriott Vacations Worldwide umbrella. If it's offered to Vistana/Hyatt owners the same as it has been to Marriott owners it'll be completely voluntary participation in an exchange company, which doesn't require forfeiture of existing ownerships or have any impact on contractual affiliations related to hotel loyalty programs, or, between timeshare properties and co-located hotels.

(If anyone has questions about the Marriott DC program, the Is 2019 the 'Year of the Timeshare'? [Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt in the DC speculation] thread in the Marriott forum has some detail.)


----------



## CPNY

DannyTS said:


> Legal question to those that know the answer. Even if MVC cannot put the Mexico properties in the DC trust, can they instead put the Aventuras trust in the DC trust?


I wonder where Westin St John and Harborside fit into this equation. Are there legal implications there as well? Neither are in any flex program.


----------



## bizaro86

DannyTS said:


> since i own several Lagunamar weeks I should embrace your theory @CPNY . Yet, is there any evidence that this happened in the past? Are the more unique MVC locations given a premium beyond the quality of the resort itself? Lagunamar has enough great feature to deserve a good valuation: great infinity pools, great location across a mall, short driving distance to the airport, tons of things to do in the area, virtually all condos have ocean views , all 2 bdrs are lockout, no mosquitoes etc. Of course the perceived country risk is a (-) even if not experienced by those travelling to WLR.
> 
> @bizaro86 . Yes, they have plenty of unsold Aventuras, but how much of that is actually Lagunamar platinum season? If I were to speculate, given that Westin Cancun and Westin Los Cabos are new resorts, I would say that they make up 80-90% of that trust. If they do not have much Lagunamar in that trust, they will still need the owners to deposit them for DC points.



I agree. I doubt Lagunamar is even 10% of that trust, and plat Lagunamar is probably not very represented. However, from MVC perspective offering the Westin Cancun to DC members/sales prospects probably feels like a pretty equivalent offering, which is what will be important to them.

I think Lagunamar is superior in a number of ways.


----------



## SteelerGal

SueDonJ said:


> I honestly would be more surprised to see a company name change that doesn't use the word "Marriott" in it, than I'd be to see them remain as Marriott Vacations Worldwide with all of the same brands that exist now coming under the MVW umbrella. The company culture and reputation was built on that name and the family is still involved. (I also wouldn't be surprised to see them at some point in the future unload segments, but that's not what the recent TUG threads are really about.)
> 
> Like you say, the MVW Destination Club Exchange Company could be the vehicle for integrating all of the timeshare companies that currently come under the Marriott Vacations Worldwide umbrella. If it's offered to Vistana/Hyatt owners the same as it has been to Marriott owners it'll be completely voluntary participation in an exchange company, which doesn't require forfeiture of existing ownerships or have any impact on contractual affiliations related to hotel loyalty programs, or, between timeshare properties and co-located hotels.
> 
> (If anyone has questions about the Marriott DC program, the Is 2019 the 'Year of the Timeshare'? [Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt in the DC speculation] thread in the Marriott forum has some detail.)


Yes, MVC can indicate “ A MVC Company”.  Hilton has it w/ BHC.


----------



## CPNY

bizaro86 said:


> I agree. I doubt Lagunamar is even 10% of that trust, and plat Lagunamar is probably not very represented. However, from MVC perspective offering the Westin Cancun to DC members/sales prospects probably feels like a pretty equivalent offering, which is what will be important to them.
> 
> I think Lagunamar is superior in a number of ways.


I really need to check out Cancun I guess. Mexico never appealed to me. I don’t want to have to worry the nonsense that goes on in the area.


----------



## SueDonJ

SteelerGal said:


> Yes, MVC can indicate “ A MVC Company”.  Hilton has it w/ BHC.


Assuming you're saying that Vistana/Hyatt property signage/correspondence/etc could note the parent company, yes. But "An MVW Company," to be precise.


----------



## DannyTS

bizaro86 said:


> I agree. I doubt Lagunamar is even 10% of that trust, and plat Lagunamar is probably not very represented. However, from MVC perspective offering the Westin Cancun to DC members/sales prospects probably feels like a pretty equivalent offering, which is what will be important to them.
> 
> I think Lagunamar is superior in a number of ways.


Marriott knows the value of each location/resort/season/view better than anyone else. It is more a question whether they want to try to fool the MVC owners or not. From what I know, the Marriott owners are some of the hardest to please and I do not think they will swallow easily the explanation that Lagunamar and Westin Cancun are the same thing.


----------



## bizaro86

DannyTS said:


> Marriott knows the value of each location/resort/season/view better than anyone else. It is more a question whether they want to try to fool the MVC owners or not. From what I know, the Marriott owners are some of the hardest to please and I do not think they will swallow easily the explanation that Lagunamar and Westin Cancun are the same thing.



They have the same staroptions...

Also, I think it's really unlikely the average new sales prospect will be able to differentiate between the two Westin's in Cancun. Even the small minority who care could be told that it was available, which would be true as Adventuras has some of it.


----------



## SteelerGal

SueDonJ said:


> Assuming you're saying that Vistana/Hyatt property signage/correspondence/etc could note the parent company, yes. But "An MVW Company," to be precise.


Oops.  Yes, it would notate the parent company.  The only issue is still Hyatt because of Hyatt licensing.


----------



## dioxide45

DannyTS said:


> Legal question for you or those that know the answer. Even if they cannot put the Mexico properties in the DC trust, can they instead put the Aventuras trust in the DC trust?


I don't think so. I think that the DC trust can only hold US based real estate. Westin Aventuras and Lagunamar are set up more like corporations and you buy shares. I don't think they can add corporate shares to a land based trust. Oddly, any transfers of the Mexico properties have to go through a US based title company.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think so. I think that the DC trust can only hold US based real estate. Westin Aventuras and Lagunamar are set up more like corporations and you buy shares. I don't think they can add corporate shares to a land based trust. Oddly, any transfers of the Mexico properties have to go through a US based title company.


Is that unique for the Mexico properties? How does it affect Harborside. Westin St John is in a US Territory I would assume that can go in the trust? Then again, it’s not part of any Westin Flex plan.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I wonder where Westin St John and Harborside fit into this equation. Are there legal implications there as well? Neither are in any flex program.


There really is no reason they can't add WSJ to the Westin Flex trust. Marriott's Frenchman's Cove is in the DC trust. Though it took them longer to add it. Likely because of certain legalities and approvals needed. Of course, some of the newer phases at WSJ are HomeOption and not weeks so that could complicate things for those phases.


----------



## CPNY

Who knows what about Hyatt. Is a free studio worth taking? Free closing? Can I use it anywhere?


----------



## ocdb8r

DannyTS said:


> Marriott knows the value of each location/resort/season/view better than anyone else. It is more a question whether they want to try to fool the MVC owners or not. From what I know, the Marriott owners are some of the hardest to please and I do not think they will swallow easily the explanation that Lagunamar and Westin Cancun are the same thing.





bizaro86 said:


> They have the same staroptions...
> 
> Also, I think it's really unlikely the average new sales prospect will be able to differentiate between the two Westin's in Cancun. Even the small minority who care could be told that it was available, which would be true as Adventuras has some of it.



I agree with Danny here - have a close look at the Marriott DC Point Charts.  MVC has absolutely no problem putting measurable differences in point value on resorts in the same geographic area that don't offer the same level of amenities.  The Westin Cancun rooms are substantially smaller and I think the facilities and location are not as nice as Laguanamar.  The fact that SVN allocated them the same amount of points is inconsequential.  The real question to me is how MVC will see Cancun overall.  Most felt they slighted the rest of the Caribbean resorts DC Point values compared to (perceived) actual demand.


----------



## bizaro86

ocdb8r said:


> I agree with Danny here - have a close look at the Marriott DC Point Charts.  MVC has absolutely no problem putting measurable differences in point value on resorts in the same geographic area that don't offer the same level of amenities.  The Westin Cancun rooms are substantially smaller and I think the facilities and location are not as nice as Laguanamar.  The fact that SVN allocated them the same amount of points is inconsequential.  The real question to me is how MVC will see Cancun overall.  Most felt they slighted the rest of the Caribbean resorts DC Point values compared to (perceived) actual demand.



Sorry, I wasn't talking primarily about point values, more about availability. I agree MVC would likely assign more points to Lagunamar, unless that do a fixed staroption ratio (more an exchange program).

However, we were previously discussing the lack of developer Lagunamar inventory and whether they will need to "pay up" for Lagunamar in the form of a higher-than-otherwise point value to get owners to move over. I don't think they will, because they will view the Westin Cancun as a reasonable substitute.

I do agree that they will differentiate between properties (WKV more than SDO, Lagunamar more than Westin Cancun, SVV more than SVR)


----------



## CPNY

The more speculation I hear and the more I hear about the money hungry Marriott umbrella the more I’m aggravated we were bought out by them. If I could go back, I would never have started down this path..... but that’s what happens when you fall in love with a place.


----------



## Ken555

ocdb8r said:


> I agree with Danny here - have a close look at the Marriott DC Point Charts.  MVC has absolutely no problem putting measurable differences in point value on resorts in the same geographic area that don't offer the same level of amenities.  The Westin Cancun rooms are substantially smaller and I think the facilities and location are not as nice as Laguanamar.  The fact that SVN allocated them the same amount of points is inconsequential.  The real question to me is how MVC will see Cancun overall.  Most felt they slighted the rest of the Caribbean resorts DC Point values compared to (perceived) actual demand.



Also consider SKR vs WPV...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ocdb8r

bizaro86 said:


> However, we were previously discussing the lack of developer Lagunamar inventory and whether they will need to "pay up" for Lagunamar in the form of a higher-than-otherwise point value to get owners to move over. I don't think they will, because they will view the Westin Cancun as a reasonable substitute.



This was exactly my point though - when they created the DC points program they didn't seem to designate points based on any need to "pay up" to encourage owners of certain (non-trust) resorts to participate - they did this purely on demand and resort amenities.  Your Aruba example proves it....they knew Aruba would not be added to the trust and yet they priced the points according to what they thought general demand would be (which in many people's opinion was too low...and certainly no premium to encourage participation by owner of this this non-trust resort).


----------



## bizaro86

ocdb8r said:


> This was exactly my point though - when they created the DC points program they didn't seem to designate points based on any need to "pay up" to encourage owners of certain (non-trust) resorts to participate - they did this purely on demand and resort amenities.  Your Aruba example proves it....they knew Aruba would not be added to the trust and yet they priced the points according to what they thought general demand would be (which in many people's opinion was too low...and certainly no premium to encourage participation by owner of this this non-trust resort).



I think we're all agreed...


----------



## DannyTS

also at Lagunamar, i am curious if they are going to offer more points for the Oceanside weeks. Now that I own both Oceanside an Oceanview, why would I deposit Oceanside if not given more points than for Oceanview?


----------



## DannyTS

MVC should hurry and announce the program ASAP before the first casualties (including myself); I anticipate people dying "en masse" from an aggravated form of curiosity.


----------



## TravelTime

DannyTS said:


> MVC should hurry and announce the program ASAP before the first casualties (including myself); I anticipate people dying "en masse" from an aggravated form of curiosity.



Yes, I agree! Me included!


----------



## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> Also consider SKR vs WPV...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



You can;t buy SKR Resale but you can buy WPV resale. SKR all garden view. They may reallocate WPV to have ocean view with DPs. Actually, this would be a strategic was to go since there is only island designation now but there are ocean views. I would like this even thought I just bought an IV week 52 bc I prefer reserving an ocean view. Hence this would encourage me to enroll my week and lose the week 52. But hopefully a week 52 will get extra DPs too since week 52 comes with high DPs,


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> You can;t buy SKR Resale but you can buy WPV resale. SKR all garden view. They may reallocate WPV to have ocean view with DPs. Actually, this would be a strategic was to go since there is only island designation now but there are ocean views. I would like this even thought I just bought an IV week 52 bc I prefer reserving an ocean view. Hence this would encourage me to enroll my week and lose the week 52. But hopefully a week 52 will get extra DPs too since week 52 comes with high DPs,



My comment was regarding point requirements, not purchase options. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime

Ken555 said:


> My comment was regarding point requirements, not purchase options.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Good point. Can you elaborate more on the difference for point allocations.


----------



## Ken555

TravelTime said:


> Good point. Can you elaborate more on the difference for point allocations.



Read this again:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/marriott-vistana-overlay.286319/page-19#post-2306731


----------



## bizaro86

TravelTime said:


> You can;t buy SKR Resale but you can buy WPV resale. SKR all garden view. They may reallocate WPV to have ocean view with DPs. Actually, this would be a strategic was to go since there is only island designation now but there are ocean views. I would like this even thought I just bought an IV week 52 bc I prefer reserving an ocean view. Hence this would encourage me to enroll my week and lose the week 52. But hopefully a week 52 will get extra DPs too since week 52 comes with high DPs,



Are they selling SKR at all yet? I think given no SKR inventory was sold pre-merger, that might give a big clue what they plan to do going forward.  

If they deposit SKR into the DC trust and sell that there, probably that means they'll go for a full conversion.

If they add it to Sheraton Flex that probably means they'll keep things mostly separate and do an exchange program of some kind.

Dioxide made the great point in another tread that them putting unsold Nanea inventory in Westin Flex probably means they intend to keep offering that product.


----------



## CPNY

bizaro86 said:


> Are they selling SKR at all yet? I think given no SKR inventory was sold pre-merger, that might give a big clue what they plan to do going forward.
> 
> If they deposit SKR into the DC trust and sell that there, probably that means they'll go for a full conversion.
> 
> If they add it to Sheraton Flex that probably means they'll keep things mostly separate and do an exchange program of some kind.
> 
> Dioxide made the great point in another tread that them putting unsold Nanea inventory in Westin Flex probably means they intend to keep offering that product.



I don’t think they will do away with the programs. They can easily run both (all) side by side and have a “buy in” to book affiliate resorts through some sort of exchange. Then charge and exchange fee for each booking. You may be able to buy flex if you visit a Marriott sales presentation. We shall see


----------



## bizaro86

CPNY said:


> I don’t think they will do away with the programs. They can easily run both (all) side by side and have a “buy in” to book affiliate resorts through some sort of exchange. Then charge and exchange fee for each booking. You may be able to buy flex if you visit a Marriott sales presentation. We shall see



Oh, they'll definitely need to keep running the various programs they already have. I'm just saying what they are selling at SKR might give us a hint of their go forward plans.


----------



## CPNY

bizaro86 said:


> Oh, they'll definitely need to keep running the various programs they already have. I'm just saying what they are selling at SKR might give us a hint of their go forward plans.


I think having multiple programs allows for more options for customers to buy into. I hope for a dedicated exchange platform, and they cam sell Destination Points to Vistana owners at these updates and on the reverse, sell Flex to MVC owners.


----------



## SteelerGal

I wonder if they will change how VSN exchanges are handled as well.  Marriott gets to chose their best week to use for exchange.  VSN does a mass dump of lowest weeks.  It may be a moot point now that Marriott also owns II, but curious if there will be changes.


----------



## CPNY

SteelerGal said:


> I wonder if they will change how VSN exchanges are handled as well.  Marriott gets to chose their best week to use for exchange.  VSN does a mass dump of lowest weeks.  It may be a moot point now that Marriott also owns II, but curious if there will be changes.



Hmm, I’ve actually never exchanged a week in II. Always used my star options for 20 years. I hope they never do away with VSN.


----------



## SteelerGal

I own non mandatory so I wonder if they will change the program.


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> Hmm, I’ve actually never exchanged a week in II. Always used my star options for 20 years. I hope they never do away with VSN.



I’ve used II regularly. In last 2 years in the row, I used my small SBP 1 bedroom with MF $426 traded for Nanea 2 bedrooms. Try it you will like it and it’s free with your SVN membership, just pay exchange fee.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> I’ve used II regularly. In last 2 years in the row, I used my small SBP 1 bedroom with MF $426 traded for Nanea 2 bedrooms. Try it you will like it and it’s free with your SVN membership, just pay exchange fee.


Wow. You got that with that? Lol. Maybe I should get into a cheap voluntary with a really low MF for exchanging


----------



## CPNY

SteelerGal said:


> I own non mandatory so I wonder if they will change the program.


Me too. Just got two more. I hope they don’t change it


----------



## pchung6

CPNY said:


> Wow. You got that with that? Lol. Maybe I should get into a cheap voluntary with a really low MF for exchanging



Yes you can also do the same exchange game with Marriott week. Once I used Marriott Willow Ridge studio traded for 3 bedrooms St Thomas few years back.  II is great if you are patient enough, however YMMV.


----------



## CPNY

pchung6 said:


> Yes you can also do the same exchange game with Marriott week. Once I used Marriott Willow Ridge studio traded for 3 bedrooms St Thomas few years back.  II is great if you are patient enough, however YMMV.


I’d say I don’t own Marriott. But I guess I apparently do now haha.


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> I think having multiple programs allows for more options for customers to buy into. I hope for a dedicated exchange platform, and they cam sell Destination Points to Vistana owners at these updates and on the reverse, sell Flex to MVC owners.


I do think they will keep Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex. I even mentioned in the thread on the Marriott board that they could possibly rename the Marriott Destinations Trust Points program to Marriott Flex. Then allow some type of cross booking between the three and not providing cross bookings for weeks owners.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> I do think they will keep Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex. I even mentioned in the thread on the Marriott board that they could possibly rename the Marriott Destinations Trust Points program to Marriott Flex. Then allow some type of cross booking between the three and not providing cross bookings for weeks owners.


Good point. Make us give our deeds back and buy into flex? I think I’ll keep my VSN booking instead. Isn’t Westin flex a higher price than Sheraton flex? 

Has there ever been a situation in history where two huge timeshare companies combined?


----------



## dioxide45

CPNY said:


> Good point. Make us give our deeds back and buy into flex? I think I’ll keep my VSN booking instead. Isn’t Westin flex a higher price than Sheraton flex?
> 
> Has there ever been a situation in history where two huge timeshare companies combined?


When Wyndham bought Shell and Worldmark, they didn't combine programs at all. They pretty much all operate independently. They do have a limited cross booking feature, but only available to certain VIPs that bought direct.


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> When Wyndham bought Shell and Worldmark, they didn't combine programs at all. They pretty much all operate independently. They do have a limited cross booking feature, but only available to certain VIPs that bought direct.



Wyndham is now offering Shell owners the chance to get full club Wyndham access with a new purchase or a conversion fee (seems to be $2950)


----------



## ocdb8r

I've been reading through and giving my thoughts in both threads (the one here on the SVN Board and the one over on MVC) and wanted to cross-post (apologies if this is a big no-no, but I thought ok in this case) my thoughts on how I think things might play out.

What MVC could do is:

1) for SVN trust _flex Option_ owners, they use a different fixed exchange rate for each of the various flexOptions programs - say for Westin Flex you get 0.04 DC points for every Westin flexOption; for Sheraton Flex you get 0.03 DC points for every flexOption and for Westin Aventuras you get (who knows....perhaps 0.04, I have no idea how MVC will value Mexico). This doesn't solve the inherent mismatch between Maui and AZ/CA desert weeks within the Westin flex...but that is the worst of the issues and perhaps with some sort of skim MVC can manage it. I think the mismatches between resort demand in the other trusts is much smaller.

2) for SVN _weeks _owners, they offer an option to enroll in the DC with your week being set at a fixed DC point value (completely unrelated to the SVN StarOptions value and based closer to similar MVC resort values), basically the same as what they did with MVC weeks owners when they launched the program. Yes, weeks owners will see a mismatch between the value ascribed compared to (1) above, but I think MVC could explain it away. Likely more in demand weeks/resorts (Maui. ski weeks...etc) will end up with a value higher than the fixed rate above and less in demand weeks/resorts (Orlando, mud weeks...etc) will end up with a value lower than the fixed rate above. For non-trust resorts, they don't have a true way to compare...and most of these are likely to be in demand resorts which would get a decent DC point value offered.

I think the most marginalized in the above approach would be Platinum desert week owners (both CA and AZ) who would likely not receive nearly the same rate of DC points as Platinum Maui week owners (where in SVN they are on par). However, this may be as good as can get and I suspect it marginalizes the smallest group of SVN owners. MVC had to contend with some of the same concerns when they launched the DC program as many low value week owners were regularly getting high value trades in II. While there was a lot of smoke the first year or so, over time things have settled down and most MVC owners have come to find value in the DC program.

Taken together, this approach also helps minimize the inherent mismatch in the SVN trusts. If they get enough weeks owners on board, the trusts stay a relatively small portion of the overall DC-SVN interaction and (2) above pulls the whole system closer to being on par with relative MVC resort DC point values.

ONE silver lining in all of this that I hope is in MVC's mind and may provide a tiny buffer. The one clear advantage SVN desert weeks (and most SVN mainland resort weeks) has over similarly situated MVC properties is that our properties lock-off into two 1-bedrooms. This should justify a bit of a premium in DC point value over MVC resorts and narrow the mismatch a bit.


----------



## CPNY

ocdb8r said:


> I've been reading through and giving my thoughts in both threads (the one here on the SVN Board and the one over on MVC) and wanted to cross-post (apologies if this is a big no-no, but I thought ok in this case) my thoughts on how I think things might play out.
> 
> What MVC could do is:
> 
> 1) for SVN trust _flex Option_ owners, they use a different fixed exchange rate for each of the various flexOptions programs - say for Westin Flex you get 0.04 DC points for every Westin flexOption; for Sheraton Flex you get 0.03 DC points for every flexOption and for Westin Aventuras you get (who knows....perhaps 0.04, I have no idea how MVC will value Mexico). This doesn't solve the inherent mismatch between Maui and AZ/CA desert weeks within the Westin flex...but that is the worst of the issues and perhaps with some sort of skim MVC can manage it. I think the mismatches between resort demand in the other trusts is much smaller.
> 
> 2) for SVN _weeks _owners, they offer an option to enroll in the DC with your week being set at a fixed DC point value (completely unrelated to the SVN StarOptions value and based closer to similar MVC resort values), basically the same as what they did with MVC weeks owners when they launched the program. Yes, weeks owners will see a mismatch between the value ascribed compared to (1) above, but I think MVC could explain it away. Likely more in demand weeks/resorts (Maui. ski weeks...etc) will end up with a value higher than the fixed rate above and less in demand weeks/resorts (Orlando, mud weeks...etc) will end up with a value lower than the fixed rate above. For non-trust resorts, they don't have a true way to compare...and most of these are likely to be in demand resorts which would get a decent DC point value offered.
> 
> I think the most marginalized in the above approach would be Platinum desert week owners (both CA and AZ) who would likely not receive nearly the same rate of DC points as Platinum Maui week owners (where in SVN they are on par). However, this may be as good as can get and I suspect it marginalizes the smallest group of SVN owners. MVC had to contend with some of the same concerns when they launched the DC program as many low value week owners were regularly getting high value trades in II. While there was a lot of smoke the first year or so, over time things have settled down and most MVC owners have come to find value in the DC program.
> 
> Taken together, this approach also helps minimize the inherent mismatch in the SVN trusts. If they get enough weeks owners on board, the trusts stay a relatively small portion of the overall DC-SVN interaction and (2) above pulls the whole system closer to being on par with relative MVC resort DC point values.
> 
> ONE silver lining in all of this that I hope is in MVC's mind and may provide a tiny buffer. The one clear advantage SVN desert weeks (and most SVN mainland resort weeks) has over similarly situated MVC properties is that our properties lock-off into two 1-bedrooms. This should justify a bit of a premium in DC point value over MVC resorts and narrow the mismatch a bit.


Great points. I do think the programs will operate along side each other and there’s will Be some sort of access given/granted/or paid for by some. As I've said all along, as long as I keep my star option booking at 8 months in the VSN booking and that trust is separate from others I’ll be quite ok with that. Personally, I have 2-3 of my favorite resorts and that’s all I’m interested in.


----------



## CPNY

dioxide45 said:


> When Wyndham bought Shell and Worldmark, they didn't combine programs at all. They pretty much all operate independently. They do have a limited cross booking feature, but only available to certain VIPs that bought direct.


Maybe I should have held onto my developer purchase a bit longer lol. I’ll always have my mothers and aunts to fall back on if you need a developer purchase to play In the cross booking game. I truly hope they keep them separate with a cross booking feature. I think a minimal buy in to enroll each VOI into an affiliate exchange using II platform plus an exchange fee could be a good option. It’s a constant money maker on every booking for years to come. It wouldn’t require much change and it could be an upgrade at the POS on Sales presentations for new buyers. Makes it fair for all owners. They can assign “behind closed doors” points to VOI’s in the platform. You’ll see inventory based on what you’re putting in. Creates less angry owners who feel they are getting shafted on a More difficult conversion chart from SO to DC. But I’m still learning.


----------



## SteelerGal

After reading a thread on the Hyatt Board, I am seeing that Hyatt is only offering a hybrid program that requires the purchase of points.  Very similar to MVCs current program.


----------



## bobpark56

DannyTS said:


> This is why I think they will keep the DC as the main trading system and offer enrollment ($) to Vistana owners. <snip>.


Hmmm....We have one enrolled Marriott unit (they enrolled us for free) and 5 Vistana units. Would this mean we would already be enrolled in the scenario you describe? Sounds like it might be a good deal for us.


----------



## dioxide45

bobpark56 said:


> Hmmm....We have one enrolled Marriott unit (they enrolled us for free) and 5 Vistana units. Would this mean we would already be enrolled in the scenario you describe? Sounds like it might be a good deal for us.


If they manage it anything like they did for European or AP weeks, they would charge you the difference between what it cost to enroll one week and what it is to enroll two or more. Many that enrolled a single US resort were able to enroll their subsequent European weeks for only $100 or $500 (depending on if they were direct purchase or external resale). If you already had two enrolled Marriott weeks, adding additional weeks would be no additional cost.

This is all a big guess though based on how they handled it in DC.


----------



## jabberwocky

I'm not sure I see the value proposition for me to enrol in the MVC system if/when the integration does occur.  I have looked at picking up a resale DC package on eBay, but when I take a look at the points chart I get sticker shock.  For example, the MF's (at $0.58/point) required to book a 2BR OF at MOC would run around $5k/year during the times we would need to travel.  I can get essentially the same thing just down the road at WKORV for about half the cost? 

The only real advantage I can see to having access to the DC system is more resorts.  Sure you get a whole bunch of additional resorts (and they are good quality), but realistically with 25-30 years max left for timesharing/travel in my life; how much choice do I need, especially when we tend to prefer going to our favourite resorts?


----------



## vacationtime1

jabberwocky said:


> I'm not sure I see the value proposition for me to enrol in the MVC system if/when the integration does occur.  I have looked at picking up a resale DC package on eBay, but when I take a look at the points chart I get sticker shock.  For example, the MF's (at $0.58/point) required to book a 2BR OF at MOC would run around $5k/year during the times we would need to travel.  I can get essentially the same thing just down the road at WKORV for about half the cost?
> 
> The only real advantage I can see to having access to the DC system is more resorts.  Sure you get a whole bunch of additional resorts (and they are good quality), but realistically with 25-30 years max left for timesharing/travel in my life; how much choice do I need, especially when we tend to prefer going to our favourite resorts?



And that doesn’t include the upfront cost which would be about $50,000 if purchased resale.


----------



## andysnovel

vacationtime1 said:


> And that doesn’t include the upfront cost which would be about $50,000 if purchased resale.


I have nothing to lose but wait to see how much it will cost to translate my Vistana SO into the new combined Marriott System.


----------



## Helios

andysnovel said:


> I have nothing to lose but wait to see how much it will cost to translate my Vistana SO into the new combined Marriott System.


That’s my thinking.  Hopefully it happens at a reasonable cost.


----------



## alohakevin

Curious how they would define status if programs are combined. If you are select in Marriott and 3* in Vistana if you were to convert options to Mvc does your level go up or vice versa. I find this merger somewhat confusing so if this question is as well my apologies ahead of time.


----------



## JIMinNC

alohakevin said:


> Curious how they would define status if programs are combined. If you are select in Marriott and 3* in Vistana if you were to convert options to Mvc does your level go up or vice versa. I find this merger somewhat confusing so if this question is as well my apologies ahead of time.



Based on last Friday's Investor Day presentation at the New York Stock Exchange, they are developing a "common points currency" to "link usage by owners of [all] brands in a seamless fashion" by late 2020. As a result, I would expect future status might be determined by this new common points currency, whatever it turns out to be.

See this thread for more details on the Investor Day https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...e-investor-day-presentation-october-4.296151/


----------



## Henry M.

Just got a call from Vistana corporate trying to get me to chance my ownership", basically trying to sell me some flex options. The rep claimed going forward that is all that Vistana will be selling.

As part of the introduction, he said they'd be rolling out phase 1 of the integration with Marriott in 2020, to allow using options for 2021 reservations across all 6 Marriott brands (he had to think about what all the brands were, but ended up mentioning Marriott, Sheraton, Westin, Ritz-Carlton, St. Regis and Gaylord - not Sur he really knew). Mentioned a Cap White program where Marriott was continuing to acquire distressed properties, was bringing them up to standards and adding them to the program. He said there was one in Costa Rica and one in New York City that he had heard of. He mentioned how Flex options trolled out at about 35 cents/option in 2016 and were now about 20% higher at about 41 cents/option, and that Marriott options were much higher. They were currently working on getting a common point "currency"that should work across all the brands.

So something is definitely being announced next year, but he had no details of what it would entail or what the costs would be. He wasn't trying to get me to convert my current ownership, but said they were offering discounts to Elite owners to help them get more options before the full program rolled out. The options would all be part of the Fee program. He mentioned an example of someone that bought a Christmas week at Nanea and they were able to offer them a 20% discount, the the owner took as a cash discount, but could have also been additional Flex options.


----------



## DannyTS

MVC is talking about a common currency (possibly DC points?) and it will be a conversion rate.


Henry M. said:


> Just got a call from Vistana corporate trying to get me to chance my ownership", basically trying to sell me some flex options. The rep claimed going forward that is all that Vistana will be selling.
> 
> As part of the introduction, he said they'd be rolling out phase 1 of the integration with Marriott in 2020, to allow using options for 2021 reservations across all 6 Marriott brands (he had to think about what all the brands were, but ended up mentioning Marriott, Sheraton, Westin, Ritz-Carlton, St. Regis and Gaylord - not Sur he really knew). Mentioned a Cap White program where Marriott was continuing to acquire distressed properties, was bringing them up to standards and adding them to the program. He said there was one in Costa Rica and one in New York City that he had heard of. He mentioned how Flex options trolled out at about 35 cents/option in 2016 and were now about 20% higher at about 41 cents/option, and that Marriott options were much higher. They were currently working on getting a common point "currency"that should work across all the brands.
> 
> So something is definitely being announced next year, but he had no details of what it would entail or what the costs would be. He wasn't trying to get me to convert my current ownership, but said they were offering discounts to Elite owners to help them get more options before the full program rolled out. The options would all be part of the Fee program. He mentioned an example of someone that bought a Christmas week at Nanea and they were able to offer them a 20% discount, the the owner took as a cash discount, but could have also been additional Flex options.


Did he mention what kind of "options"? Home or Star?


----------



## Henry M.

He said Flex options. Only Flex product would be sold going forward, aside from some weeks they get traded back in from time to time.


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## dioxide45

Henry M. said:


> Just got a call from Vistana corporate trying to get me to chance my ownership", basically trying to sell me some flex options. The rep claimed going forward that is all that Vistana will be selling.
> 
> As part of the introduction, he said they'd be rolling out phase 1 of the integration with Marriott in 2020, to allow using options for 2021 reservations across all 6 Marriott brands (he had to think about what all the brands were, but ended up mentioning *Marriott, Sheraton, Westin, Ritz-Carlton, St. Regis* and Gaylord - not Sur he really knew). Mentioned a Cap White program where Marriott was continuing to acquire distressed properties, was bringing them up to standards and adding them to the program. He said there was one in Costa Rica and one in New York City that he had heard of. He mentioned how Flex options trolled out at about 35 cents/option in 2016 and were now about 20% higher at about 41 cents/option, and that Marriott options were much higher. They were currently working on getting a common point "currency"that should work across all the brands.
> 
> So something is definitely being announced next year, but he had no details of what it would entail or what the costs would be. He wasn't trying to get me to convert my current ownership, but said they were offering discounts to Elite owners to help them get more options before the full program rolled out. The options would all be part of the Fee program. He mentioned an example of someone that bought a Christmas week at Nanea and they were able to offer them a 20% discount, the the owner took as a cash discount, but could have also been additional Flex options.


The sixth brand is Grand Residence.


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## DannyTS

Henry M. said:


> He said Flex options. Only Flex product would be sold going forward, aside from some weeks they get traded back in from time to time.


I understand that they are selling Flex Options but that does not necessarily mean that the StarOptions would not be able to be converted into the common currency since even the Homeoptions that come with the Flex programs convert to Staroptions at 8 months


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## jabberwocky

Henry M. said:


> He said Flex options. Only Flex product would be sold going forward, aside from some weeks they get traded back in from time to time.



I think they have "only" be selling Flex for awhile now (with the exception of Nanea; however, as of this summer they are no longer selling Nanea HomeOptions).  

This will probably be a true statement until the next product iteration comes out of the Marriott timeshare factory.


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## jimandelise

I had a timeshare presentation at Harborside.  There was no mention of flex points.  It was buy more points and get the right to book here at 12 months ahead of all the Marriott owners when they get to book next year 2020.

I informed him that as a chairman level, in Marriott I would get a 13 month booking window.  His counter was that as an owner I get a pick of buildings and rooms (possible new perk?)

But no mention of getting or needing flex points in the new Marriott program.


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## DavidnRobin

jimandelise said:


> I had a timeshare presentation at Harborside.  There was no mention of flex points.  It was buy more points and get the right to book here at 12 months ahead of all the Marriott owners when they get to book next year 2020.
> 
> I informed him that as a chairman level, in Marriott I would get a 13 month booking window.  His counter was that as an owner I get a pick of buildings and rooms (possible new perk?)
> 
> But no mention of getting or needing flex points in the new Marriott program.



Timeshare salesperson lips were moving...

Let’s remember - they can’t reserve VOIs that they don’t own.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alexadeparis

Now that we are in the promised October 2020 announcement month, do we think we will really get an announcement soon? I don’t know why it should have taken over 2 years to begin with - how much longer do you think they will make us wait?


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## CPNY

alexadeparis said:


> Now that we are in the promised October 2020 announcement month, do we think we will really get an announcement soon? I don’t know why it should have taken over 2 years to begin with - how much longer do you think they will make us wait?


I’d say now is not the best time to announce anything, especially with half of their customers unhappy with their COVID policy. Also, if there is any sort of “buy in”, this economy may not be the best to do it.

I think we will see it rolled out when travel begins to increase and they want to introduce “a new way to use your ownership”!


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## jabberwocky

CPNY said:


> I’d say now is not the best time to announce anything, especially with half of their customers unhappy with their COVID policy. Also, if there is any sort of “buy in”, this economy may not be the best to do it.
> 
> I think we will see it rolled out when travel begins to increase and they want to introduce “more ways to use your ownership”!


Agree - they want to launch when there will be excitement over the new program and people will be eager to buy. 

Given that they've just laid off a good portion of their salesforce, I don't see them launching in this environment.


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## controller1

jabberwocky said:


> Agree - they want to launch when there will be excitement over the new program and people will be eager to buy.
> 
> Given that they've just laid off a good portion of their salesforce, I don't see them launching in this environment.



Additionally, I'm not sure how much work has gone into this in the past six months during the pandemic.


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## jabberwocky

controller1 said:


> Additionally, I'm not sure how much work has gone into this in the past six months during the pandemic.


Good point. I imagine this is low on the list of priorities right now. They have bigger fish to fry.


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## dioxide45

I suspect just about anything they are planning is either scrapped for a different plan or put on pause until things turn back around. Unless there is a simple crossover booking window at say 6 or 4 months, we probably won't see anything for at least a year.


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## Eric B

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect just about anything they are planning is either scrapped for a different plan or put on pause until things turn back around. Unless there is a simple crossover booking window at say 6 or 4 months, we probably won't see anything for at least a year.



Even a simple crossover booking window could be problematic with all the restricted SOs next year....


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## jabberwocky

Eric B said:


> Even a simple crossover booking window could be problematic with all the restricted SOs next year....


Good point.


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## dioxide45

Eric B said:


> Even a simple crossover booking window could be problematic with all the restricted SOs next year....


There are also a lot of restricted DC points out there on the Marriott side. Though they could limit the ability of Holding Account and Restricted SOs from being able to cross book between the systems.


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## DannyTS

while I agree with everything that was said, launching now the overlay program would have some advantages:

-It would bring a drop of optimism and a sense of normality both for the remaining sales force and for the potential owners. To my surprise, I read that some people are still buying and I am pretty sure the sales force people would not mind a boost.
- It gives additional booking options and that is a good thing since many people cannot fly or have other restrictions but they could use the points somewhere else if the location they would go to is in the sister network


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## DannyTS

I also thing the "best" time may not come for a while so why wait? The problem with the restricted points will still be here for many months and the saved points will create availability problems for the next 2-3 years. I do not think Marriott will want to wait that long, especially if the new program is not very expensive to launch.


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## dansimms

A nice way to ease into a new wrinkle to the program would be to limit the usage to non-restricted destination points.  That might even boost sales of add on points.


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## cubigbird

DannyTS said:


> I also thing the "best" time may not come for a while so why wait? The problem with the restricted points will still be here for many months and the saved points will create availability problems for the next 2-3 years. I do not think Marriott will want to wait that long, especially if the new program is not very expensive to launch.



It all comes down to $$ and profit.  They will launch when it’s best for the company and for shareholders.  On that note, if sales and profits are down, now would be a great time to announce an overlay that can generate big $$ out of existing owners.  It could be easy money during a tough economy.


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## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> There are also a lot of restricted DC points out there on the Marriott side. Though they could limit the ability of Holding Account and Restricted SOs from being able to cross book between the systems.


I think if they introduced this now you may have a lot of Vistana angry owners with RSO who are now having to compete with MVC owners who have priority over them in the booking window.


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