# Wyndham Privileges: new Wyndham VIP Levels starting late 2020 [Merged]



## Cyrus24

I know the sales weasels lie!!!  But when they share info without trying to sell me something, I get to where I can’t tell if they are really lying or are they just lost in the previous lies.

Went to an update today at Emerald Grande, Destin.  Update part was normal except for where the presenter mentioned the new VIP levels that were announced (apparently only to sales) on 5/1/19 effective in 2020.  In the individual meeting, I received a bit more detail.
300K for Emerald (15% in the discount window)
400K for Gold
700k for Platinum
1000K for Diamond
1400K for Titanium
Our salesperson even pulled out the note they received and flashed it in front of our eyes.  It looked like it would be shared with Owners on 5/16/19.  I had already had a bit of a contentious conversation with the weasel and was unable to snap a picture of the letter.  I also was not given time to read any of the FAQs. 

I am Gold so I asked about how this would impact me.  
- Would I now be 'new' Platinum?  Only if I bought 64K points. 
- Well, what about my current Gold benefits?  I’d be Grandfathered.    
- Are New Platinum VIP benefits, at the new lower point level the same benefits as current day Platinum owners?  Don’t know.

At this point we were lost in the weeds and the salesperson seemed lost as well.  We never saw an option for buying more points and were rushed off to gifting.  It was an odd ending to the update.   Unless they were just totally BSing us, we are going to start hearing and seeing more on this change.  Hopefully those attending update sessions in the coming days can gather a bit more info on this change.

Side note.  The part of our individual session that got contentious was when the salesperson tried to tell me I'd missed the open enrollment period earlier in the year.  What open enrollment period?  For what new benefits?  5 things I was told.  1. New Perks (I have perks),  2.  Club Pass changes (ie. 10 months for WorldMark reservations),  3. New Rewards Card (they wanted me to apply for a new Rewards card, I'm not doing that), 4.  Plus Partners (have that, never saw any value for using) and 5. WWE or World Wide Exchange (I never understood what this was about and I'm sure it's a scam of some sort).

I always enjoy reading about updates.  Thought I'd share this one, as odd as it was.  The breakfast was good, BTW.


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## jjking42

"The breakfast was good, BTW."

most important part IMHO


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## bnoble

Anything a sales rep is telling you is almost certainly not true. Then again, I won't be surprised if/when Wyndham creates new (more expensive) tiers. Selling to existing owners is easier and more lucrative than selling to new people, and tiered systems like VIP are great at instilling FOMO in potential customers.


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## dgalati

What about the loss of value for a VIP with the ending of cancel and rebook as it was sold to become a VIP?


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## GRapuser

When talking to Telesales 2 months ago to make a PIC purchase to get to Gold I was told that the VIP levels were going to be changing soon. This was told to me after I already was in the process of making the purchase, so I tend to believe that it wasn't completely made up. I heard it at another update last month as well, although I was surprised that nothing was said to me this past Monday when I was attending an update at Glacier Canyon. Nobody who talked to me knew any details other than the points for each level were going up.

If the point are indeed going up and those who are currently Gold are "Grandfathered", given the new levels, it seems reasonable that we should be grandfathered at the Diamond level since we would have enough points to be Platinum without any grandfathering. However, reasonable and Wyndham do not always go together, I know.


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## Manzana

Cyrus24 said:


> I know the sales weasels lie!!!  But when they share info without trying to sell me something, I get to where I can’t tell if they are really lying or are they just lost in the previous lies.
> 
> Went to an update today at Emerald Grande, Destin.  Update part was normal except for where the presenter mentioned the new VIP levels that were announced (apparently only to sales) on 5/1/19 effective in 2020.  In the individual meeting, I received a bit more detail.
> 300K for Emerald (15% in the discount window)
> 400K for Gold
> 700k for Platinum
> 1000K for Diamond
> 1400K for Titanium
> Our salesperson even pulled out the note they received and flashed it in front of our eyes.  It looked like it would be shared with Owners on 5/16/19.  I had already had a bit of a contentious conversation with the weasel and was unable to snap a picture of the letter.  I also was not given time to read any of the FAQs.
> 
> I am Gold so I asked about how this would impact me.
> - Would I now be 'new' Platinum?  Only if I bought 64K points.
> - Well, what about my current Gold benefits?  I’d be Grandfathered.
> - Are New Platinum VIP benefits, at the new lower point level the same benefits as current day Platinum owners?  Don’t know.
> 
> At this point we were lost in the weeds and the salesperson seemed lost as well.  We never saw an option for buying more points and were rushed off to gifting.  It was an odd ending to the update.   Unless they were just totally BSing us, we are going to start hearing and seeing more on this change.  Hopefully those attending update sessions in the coming days can gather a bit more info on this change.
> 
> Side note.  The part of our individual session that got contentious was when the salesperson tried to tell me I'd missed the open enrollment period earlier in the year.  What open enrollment period?  For what new benefits?  5 things I was told.  1. New Perks (I have perks),  2.  Club Pass changes (ie. 10 months for WorldMark reservations),  3. New Rewards Card (they wanted me to apply for a new Rewards card, I'm not doing that), 4.  Plus Partners (have that, never saw any value for using) and 5. WWE or World Wide Exchange (I never understood what this was about and I'm sure it's a scam of some sort).
> 
> I always enjoy reading about updates.  Thought I'd share this one, as odd as it was.  The breakfast was good, BTW.


 

Interesting Looks like they are adding a level called Emerald at the old 300k Changing the name of Silver Gold and Platinum to Gold Platinum and Diamond at the same levels and adding a level called Titanium at 1400k.   So if this is correct the levels are not increasing in fact they are just being renamed and 2 levels being added.  1 below what silver is now and 1 above what platinum is now.   So the new lower level gives a discount of 15% in the discount window.  I would be interested to see what the Discount would be for the Titanium level at 1400k.  If it goes like the other steps have gone it would be a minimum of 65% discount during the window. 

What would you like to see as new benefits.  

I would love no discount window or maybe no upgrade window.   both would be asking too much...LOL


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## Jan M.

I just don't see it happening like that. Wyndham isn't going to lower those point levels, if anything they would raise them. Also I don't see Wyndham mixing jewel levels with the metal levels; that would be inconsistent and just messy. In other posts I've seen it suggested that should Wyndham raise the levels there might be a new lower Bronze level and a new higher Titanium level. That is much more believable.

There has been a lot of talk about this recently in a Facebook group too. Until someone produces something in writing from Wyndham corporate I'm calling it the typical sales b.s. With more and more people being computer and internet savvy it is far too easy for people to find out that they can buy resale points for pennies on the dollar. Salespeople are getting more desperate and their lies more ridiculous.

Silver         400,000 - 699,999 Points
Gold           700,000 - 999,999 Points
Platinum  1,000,000 Points or More


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## Sandy VDH

This was at Emerald Grand, hence I think that is what started the Emerald.  Makes me think the whole thing is just plain rubbish.


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## paxsarah

I’ve heard enough chatter from people who’ve been to updates recently about changes to VIP that it seems there could be something to it, but those proposed levels seem bananas to me. Except for an even lower tier with smaller discounts - that makes a lot of sense from a sales perspective.


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## ecwinch

Jan M. said:


> I just don't see it happening like that. Wyndham isn't going to lower those point levels, if anything they would raise them. I don't see Wyndham mixing jewel levels with the metal levels; that would be inconsistent and just messy. In other posts I've seen it suggested that should Wyndham raise the levels there might be a new lower Bronze level and a new higher Titanium level. That is much more believable.



I was thinking the same thing. Are emeralds less valuable than gold?


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## Cyrus24

Manzana said:


> Interesting Looks like they are adding a level called Emerald at the old 300k Changing the name of Silver Gold and Platinum to Gold Platinum and Diamond at the same levels and adding a level called Titanium at 1400k.   So if this is correct the levels are not increasing in fact they are just being renamed and 2 levels being added.  1 below what silver is now and 1 above what platinum is now.   So the new lower level gives a discount of 15% in the discount window.  I would be interested to see what the Discount would be for the Titanium level at 1400k.  If it goes like the other steps have gone it would be a minimum of 65% discount during the window.
> 
> What would you like to see as new benefits.
> 
> I would love no discount window or maybe no upgrade window.   both would be asking too much...LOL


This changing of names plus the 2 new levels were the take away that my wife had.  But that only works if there is some type of sales ploy here for the 3 middle levels.  Example, if you are Gold today, you'll have certain 'new' Platinum features and with a small purchase, you'll get the rest of the 'new' Platinum features.  And, of course, with just a few more points purchased, you'll be Diamond.

Just wanted to share what I learned and ask that members of the forum share what they are learning in this regard.  It could get crazy if they drop a change that really confuses people for the purpose of generating new sales.  If nothing happens by the end of May, I'll accept that the weasels were just BS'ing.  That would not be a first!!!

As for Titanium, maybe 65% discount at 75 days.  That might get some 1M point owners to jump on up to 1.4M.


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## dgalati

Spending 20-30k to jump up a level of VIP status just makes no sense to me financially. But then again all my purchases have been resale at $100-300 each closing costs included.


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## bnoble

Cyrus24 said:


> Example, if you are Gold today, you'll have certain 'new' Platinum features


This part almost certainly won't happen. Perks tend to be removed, not added. After all, every perk needs to be paid for out of sales revenue, and that sale is already booked.


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## HitchHiker71

Yes there will most likely be two new levels introduced as Jan mentioned, from what I’ve heard from people inside and outside of sales.  Names haven’t been finalized yet, but there will be a lower level around 300k points with a 15% discount or thereabouts and a new premium level around 1.5MM points with a 60% discount or thereabouts.  

There is a lot of discussion about actually improving VIP benefits as part of this change.  There will most likely be an announcement in Q3 2019 timeframe though it could come sooner if the outstanding decision points are finalized.  The effective date will not be until sometime in 2020 from what I have heard.  Or they could drop the whole thing if the impact analytics numbers and estimates don’t pan out.  

The decisions outstanding from what I know have to do with changes to the entire sales strategy to actually better encourage developer points purchases when compared to resale purchases and to drive down the disparity between these two choices.  I’ve heard things from extending both the discount windows and the upgrade windows based upon levels - like 30 for bronze, 60 for silver, 90 for gold, 120 for platinum and 180 for titanium - for both windows.  I’ve also heard of eliminating the discount window in entirety and only having an upgrade window tied to days.  Meaning whatever VIP level you have would always have the points discount applied to all bookings.  This one single change would drive developer points purchases up because when you can get to VIPP at 50% points discounts for ALL bookings then an equivalent resale owner would have to buy twice the points to compete and the break-even would fall to about ten years on average after which resale actually becomes more expensive due to much higher annual MFs.  This doesn’t count free upgrades into the mix either.

I would like to see something like this occur with respect to the elimination of the points discount windows and the expansion of the upgrade windows.  There are also other benefits changes under review but these are the ones that I felt were worthwhile mentioning.




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## buckor

Whether this happens or not, I have heard the sales people talking about new VIP levels potentially coming since the end of last year. Makes me think that some sort of change is coming...it'll be interesting to see how it's fleshed out, because, as stated above, the levels as described in this thread don't make sense (gems and metals)...then again, when does Wyndham do things that make sense?!

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## bnoble

HitchHiker71 said:


> This one single change would drive developer points purchases up because when you can get to VIPP at 50% points discounts for ALL bookings then an equivalent resale owner would have to buy twice the points to compete and the break-even would fall to about ten years on average after which resale actually becomes more expensive due to much higher annual MFs. This doesn’t count free upgrades into the mix either.


This seems unlikely, as *someone* has to pay the MFs on the "missing" points, and my understanding is that that someone is the sales arm. It increases the value proposition of being VIP, sure, but it also significantly cuts into the margin for sales unless sales prices go up substantially, in turn erasing much of the value proposition of decreasing the spread between developer and secondary purchases.

In short: there is no free lunch.


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## Richelle

I agree with Jan  that mixing metals with gems is messy, however, that was the information I was given as well. 

Couple other things to add. Since these have already been spilled on Facebook, I see no reason why I cannot share. My source did say this is all in flux. Nothing is set in stone until it’s announced. Tiers names can change, benefits can change, and what I’m about to list here can change. Keep that in mind. 

First, it will no longer be called VIP. It will be renamed to Privileges. Stupid name in my opinion, but what do I know?

Second, there will be an Emerald status, but it will require a points purchase to get it, even if you already have the required 300,000 points. I am not sure if the same applies to the Diamond level. If they already have over 1.4 million, would they have to make another purchase to get Diamond status?

Third, They are doing away with unlimited housekeeping credits. I don’t know if that is for just lower levels, or all levels. I would just like to reiterate what someone already said. Existing VIPs will not lose their existing benefits. They will retain them and get any new ones.  They will keep their unlimited housekeeping credits. The loss of unlimited housekeeping credits will apply to new VIPs after the changes. 

Fourth, I specifically asked, if we upgrade to the next VIP level after the changes, will we lose the benefits we had before the changes. So if they take away unlimited housekeeping credits, will we lose them if we upgrade to the next level. They said no. 

I also heard that the changes will not take effect until 2020. So if they decide to make another change, the day before they announce, they will have plenty of time to update the reservation system and website. There is little to keep them from deciding to eliminate Emerald status at the last minute. Or to add some benefit.  If they want to take advantage of vacation season sales however, they better announce soon. I best guess would be May 15th. I could be completely wrong though. 


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## Richelle

Someone sent me this while I was typing my last post. She must have read my mind. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





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## Manzana

As mentioned in a few threads here the upcoming changes with Wyndham have to do with the VIP levels.   As much as I want to wait to see what is really going to happen I would love to get as much information from people who know first hand i.e. from an update or speaking personally to a Wyndham rep about the new program.

From what I have seen and heard. The new VIP program will be called Privileges.  It will contain 5 levels.  One a starter level from 300k-399k points called emerald which will include a 15% discount in the discount window.  Also one higher level 1.4 million points and above called Titanium.   This will include a 60% discount exclusive upgrade benefits and other benefits not yet mentioned.

Interesting to me is that the Emerald Level will be granted only with a purchase of additional ownership interest.  There has been no mention that Titanium level would require additional retail purchase if you are already at that ownership level. 

I would love any information that others have. Of course all of this can changed this is all just speculation until Wyndham comes out with the official word!!


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## amycurl

A photo of a Club Wyndham memo was just posted in this thread:
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/new-wyndham-vip-levels.289659/

Mods: these threads might make more sense if they were combined


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## Manzana

From Cyrus24 Earlier
"Went to an update today at Emerald Grande, Destin. Update part was normal except for where the presenter mentioned the new VIP levels that were announced (apparently only to sales) on 5/1/19 effective in 2020. In the individual meeting, I received a bit more detail.
300K for Emerald (15% in the discount window)
400K for Gold
700k for Platinum
1000K for Diamond
1400K for Titanium
Our salesperson even pulled out the note they received and flashed it in front of our eyes. It looked like it would be shared with Owners on 5/16/19. I had already had a bit of a contentious conversation with the weasel and was unable to snap a picture of the letter. I also was not given time to read any of the FAQs.”

In this case since there is no longer a Silver level.  The unlimited housekeeping benefit would be still be around if you were Gold and above.  Since the Silver level changed to Gold I would assume that the benefits still exist.   I am not positive but in reading the document shown.  The why buy today would be a little misdirection to get you upgrade to gold 700k today.  Of course I haven’t spoken to a rep directly to ask them but would be interested in someone doing so.   All these posts make me want to go to an update soon...LOL


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## ecwinch

Manzana said:


> *In this case since there is no longer a Silver level. * The unlimited housekeeping benefit would be still be around if you were Gold and above.  Since the Silver level changed to Gold I would assume that the benefits still exist.



That is not how I read it. I read that they adding two new levels - one at the bottom and one at the top (for a total of five levels as noted in the pic), and the existing levels remain the same (subject to whatever the blurb about "unlimited housekeeping changing" means).

If I had to guess, I would say that new VIP members are going to have some limit on housekeeping, and with existing VIPG and VIPP members grandfathered in on unlimited.


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## Richelle

ecwinch said:


> That is not how I read it. I read that they adding two new levels - one at the bottom and one at the top (for a total of five levels as noted in the pic), and the existing levels remain the same (subject to whatever the blurb about "unlimited housekeeping changing" means).



Right, You keep the unlimited housekeeping credits if you are currently VIP Silver (soon to be renamed to Gold) or above. 


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## Cyrus24

It's going to get wild....  I just told my wife that we may have to do another update next week in PCB.


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## Xcalibur

I spoke with wyndham today while making another booking.  essentially was told that hypothetically speaking...

1) your current status would be transferred to the similar coverage.  e.g. silver to gold, gold to platinum, etc... so, your coverage would not get downgraded
1b) they are essentially creating more tiers to have different privileges
2) the email was sent may 1st
3) they are looking at backend of 2020 to implement

lady i spoke to was quite helpful. didn't commit to anything, but actually pulled up the email and replied to my concerns about the changes.  all 'hypothetically speaking', 'if that were to happen' stuff.  Anyway, thought I'd share my experiences with you all.  In retrospect, probably should have asked for more details on the programs (not that they are set in stone yet.)


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## Manzana

ecwinch said:


> That is not how I read it. I read that they adding two new levels - one at the bottom and one at the top (for a total of five levels as noted in the pic), and the existing levels remain the same (subject to whatever the blurb about "unlimited housekeeping changing" means).
> 
> If I had to guess, I would say that new VIP members are going to have some limit on housekeeping, and with existing VIPG and VIPP members grandfathered in on unlimited.


I am saying in the example that Cyrus gave where there was not a Silver level, and Diamond was included.  I read the document the same as you.  There are 2 new levels added one above and one below.  However as Cyrus stated the levels there were changes.   I am just saying it would be good question to ask for some clarity.


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## ecwinch

Richelle said:


> Right, You keep the unlimited housekeeping credits if you are currently VIP Silver (soon to be renamed to Gold) or above.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I dont follow the logic that anything is going to be renamed. The pic clearly states that they are adding two new levels, for a total of five levels. It makes no mention of renaming.

Math is not my strong suit, but my public school education did teach me that 2+3 is 5.


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## Manzana

ecwinch said:


> I dont follow the logic that anything is going to be renamed. The pic clearly states that they are adding two new levels, for a total of five levels.
> 
> Math is not my strong suit, but my public school education did teach me that 2+3 is 5.



They are based on 2 separate statements.  One about the number of levels.  The second which if you go through the thread mentions many times about the renaming of the levels.   So as my math is ok 2=3=5 and so in fact does 3+2 =5
2 (Emerald, Titanium) + 3 ( Silver, Gold, Platinum)

3 ( Emerald, Diamond, Titanium) + 2(Gold, Platinum)

There is no logic to it just commenting on what was said.  If there were logic to it you would not have gems with metals.


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## Richelle

ecwinch said:


> I dont follow the logic that anything is going to be renamed. The pic clearly states that they are adding two new levels, for a total of five levels. It makes no mention of renaming.
> 
> Math is not my strong suit, but my public school education did teach me that 2+3 is 5.



Originally I was told (before this memo) that Gold is the new silver, platinum is the new gold, and Diamond is the new Platinum. I really do not understand why they need to shuffle things around like that. 


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## ecwinch

I get your point, but since the original sales person's report was based on the memo, I would say it is more likely just white noise from sales.


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## ecwinch

Richelle said:


> Originally I was told (before this memo) that Gold is the new silver, platinum is the new gold, and Diamond is the new Platinum. I really do not understand why they need to shuffle things around like that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Me either. Are you going to post this over in FB land? Bet they will go crazy.


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## Richelle

Cyrus24 said:


> It's going to get wild....  I just told my wife that we may have to do another update next week in PCB.



100% agree. When it’s announced, people will either be praising it, or screaming that the sky is falling and the world is ending. 


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## Cyrus24

IF they change the names in the middle, they will be doing it for one reason, *to Confuse the Owners. * Brilliant move, sales can then say 'to get in on the new level, buy a few points at current prices and you'll be locked in'.  This is what the weasel told us, buy 64K points and you'd be good.  *Sales Ploy.  *I did not bite, mainly because the weasel was just as confused as I was when I started asking about benefits at the new levels.   To all prospective buyers, looking at VIP/Priviledges, don't buy until they role out the new benefits.


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## Manzana

Cyrus24 said:


> IF they change the names in the middle, they will be doing it for one reason, *to Confuse the Owners. * Brilliant move, sales can then say 'to get in on the new level, buy a few points at current prices and you'll be locked in'.  This is what the weasel told us, buy 64K points and you'd be good.  *Sales Ploy.  *I did not bite, mainly because the weasel was just as confused as I was when I started asking about benefits at the new levels.   To all prospective buyers, looking at VIP/Priviledges, don't buy until they role out the new benefits.


This was exactly my point!!  Thank you Cyrus.


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## Richelle

Cyrus24 said:


> IF they change the names in the middle, they will be doing it for one reason, *to Confuse the Owners. * Brilliant move, sales can then say 'to get in on the new level, buy a few points at current prices and you'll be locked in'.  This is what the weasel told us, buy 64K points and you'd be good.  *Sales Ploy.  *I did not bite, mainly because the weasel was just as confused as I was when I started asking about benefits at the new levels.   To all prospective buyers, looking at VIP/Priviledges, don't buy until they role out the new benefits.



Considering they are giving owners until late 2020, there is no teal reason to buy right away. Although they probably will hike point prices. Still not enough reason to dive in right away. 


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## Sandy VDH

I guess I will just sit with my VIPP and see what happens.


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## Richelle

ecwinch said:


> Me either. Are you going to post this over in FB land? Bet they will go crazy.



Someone posted this on the Happy Wyndham Owners Facebook group. I got booted out of the group, so didn’t see it until someone sent it to me. I asked the original poster to post it to the group I moderate. 


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## Cyrus24

Richelle said:


> Someone posted this on the Happy Wyndham Owners Facebook group. I got booted out of the group, so didn’t see it until someone sent it to me. I asked the original poster to post it to the group I moderate.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just saw it there, as well.  Lots of speculating in that group, as well.  The group size might start dropping as members express unhappiness over the potential change, they don't like unhappy posts in that group.


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## GRapuser

This is just for fun, but I wanted to look at the value of the new speculated tier names. All of these are prices per pound.

Titanium - $30
Diamond - $11,400,000 (for a pound of 1 carat diamonds, but value varies tremendously depending on quality)
Platinum - $12,709.44
Gold - $18,708.81
Emerald - $226,796  (for a pound of 1 carat emeralds, but value varies tremendously depending on quality)

It would make much more sense to name the lowest level Titanium and the two highest levels Emerald and Diamond, but that is why it probably won't happen that way.


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## HitchHiker71

bnoble said:


> This seems unlikely, as *someone* has to pay the MFs on the "missing" points, and my understanding is that that someone is the sales arm. It increases the value proposition of being VIP, sure, but it also significantly cuts into the margin for sales unless sales prices go up substantially, in turn erasing much of the value proposition of decreasing the spread between developer and secondary purchases.
> 
> In short: there is no free lunch.



Not if the sales projections show increased developer points sales high enough to offset the missing points and lower margins - this a volume play in other words.  There are also potentially significant additional limitations on third party resale purchases under consideration to further degrade the spread.  They will attack this issue from both sides, much like Disney and Hilton have done recently.


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## GRapuser

There is a line-item in the Wyndham budget that is covered by program fees labeled "VIP Benefits", so it was my understanding that the cost of things like housekeeping fees and transaction fees beyond the allotted amount were covered by the program fees. Wouldn't this be the case for point discounts and upgrades as well? If so, would added benefits mean that the program fees are likely to increase more in the upcoming years?


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## CO skier

HitchHiker71 said:


> There are also potentially significant additional limitations on third party resale purchases under consideration to further degrade the spread.  They will attack this issue from both sides, much like Disney and Hilton have done recently.


I would be interested to learn the changes to the Hilton and Disney programs that you think apply to Wyndham.  I do not want to hijack this thread, so a new thread in the Wyndham forum summarizing the Hilton and Disney changes that you see related to the Wyndham resale market might be enlightening.

Wyndham is not Hilton or Disney.  Looking at the most excellent Timeshare Comparison Chart engineered by TUGBrian (worth a million bucks to new and existing timeshare owners!)

https://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/timeshare-system-comparison-chart.html

Wyndham has more than 100 resorts compared to 64 for Hilton and 13 for Disney, many of them not exactly up to HGVC and Disney standards.  It is difficult enough now to move a Wyndham contract from one dues paying owner to another.  If Wyndham somehow places “ significant additional limitations on third party resale purchases” what options do the selling Club Wyndham owners have?  Ovation?  Sure, but who pays the monthly maintenance fees until the Ovation contract is sold?  Wyndham, of course.

I can see how the much discussed “no VIP benefits on resale contracts” might be part of the new program.  (It is part of the WorldMark program).  Beyond that, I  see how limiting resale benefits (which are what? other than the ability to use the points just like a non-VIP Club Wyndham owner?) would amount to Wyndham shooting themselves in the foot with the higher, ongoing maintenance fees from Ovation turnovers.

Just out of curiosity, does Hilton or Disney essentially buyback all foreclosures and pay the maintenance fees until the foreclosure is resold?  That is what Wyndham does in my Pagosa Springs HOA.


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## geist1223

They borrowed the name "Privileges" from Wyndham/WMSP. Wyndham/WMSP recently created the new 100 Club - own 100,000 WMSP Developer Credits/Points. This is roughly equivalent to 1,600,000 Wyndham Points.


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## CO skier

geist1223 said:


> They borrowed the name "Privileges" from Wyndham/WMSP.


Next thing you know, they will be serving Vegemite for the owner update breakfasts.


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## bnoble

HitchHiker71 said:


> They will attack this issue from both sides, much like Disney and Hilton have done recently.


I've always thought they would eventually follow in Diamond/Marriott's path: creating a product that is a non-deeded usage assignment with a fee structure or new purchase requirement to "requalify" the points if they are sold. I was a little surprised that CWA did not do that.

Edited to add: now that I think about it, I suppose that's actually quite like what Disney is doing. For those that don't know: their newest resort is, essentially, a distinct "club" with a 1-1 exchange program between it and existing resorts. However, only developer purchases can participate. If you buy resale points at the 14 older resorts, they can only be used in one of those 14, and cannot be used at this, the 15th. If you buy resale points at the 15th, they can only be used at that resort. Presumably each new resort going forward will follow the same model, and be a standalone "club"--at least, it will if this restriction doesn't give too many buyers cold feet. (And I don't think it will). As far as I know, Disney does not offer a way to "requalify" those points. Yet.


----------



## chapjim

GRapuser said:


> <snip>
> 
> It would make much more sense to name the lowest level Titanium and the two highest levels Emerald and Diamond, but that is why it probably won't happen that way.



I was thinking more along the lines of lead or tin.


----------



## HitchHiker71

bnoble said:


> I've always thought they would eventually follow in Diamond/Marriott's path: creating a product that is a non-deeded usage assignment with a fee structure or new purchase requirement to "requalify" the points if they are sold. I was a little surprised that CWA did not do that.
> 
> Edited to add: now that I think about it, I suppose that's actually quite like what Disney is doing. For those that don't know: their newest resort is, essentially, a distinct "club" with a 1-1 exchange program between it and existing resorts. However, only developer purchases can participate. If you buy resale points at the 14 older resorts, they can only be used in one of those 14, and cannot be used at this, the 15th. If you buy resale points at the 15th, they can only be used at that resort. Presumably each new resort going forward will follow the same model, and be a standalone "club"--at least, it will if this restriction doesn't give too many buyers cold feet. (And I don't think it will). As far as I know, Disney does not offer a way to "requalify" those points. Yet.



Yes, these are the types of considerations under discussion, among others from what I have heard.  Toward @CO Skiers post, I’m not privy to the detailed discussions ongoing behind the scenes.  What I will say is to remember where Michael Brown came from.  HGVC.  Executives often introduce and adopt ideas largely based upon previous experiences, just like every other human being on earth.  Yes WD is different.  I’m sure whatever ends up being done, if anything, will have its own Wyndham specific spin added to it.  Only time will tell.  Your guess is really as good as mine.  I do agree with CO Skier that whatever it is that is done, the forecasts and the financials will have to demonstrate sustainability, feasibility and advantage to the business (and supposedly to us as owners at least in part). 


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## Mary W

I remember getting a survey from Wyndham a while back about which VIP extra perks would appeal the most to me.  Now it makes more sense why they were sending it out. Wish I could still access the survey to look at the options again.


----------



## Kozman

So? If I am currently Gold and will be 'grandfathered' in to Platinum does that mean I will then get a 50% discount instead of 35% discount that I currently get as Gold or will the name just change like getting an honorary college degree?


----------



## Cyrus24

Kozman said:


> So? If I am currently Gold and will be 'grandfathered' in to Platinum does that mean I will then get a 50% discount instead of 35% discount that I currently get as Gold or will the name just change like getting an honorary college degree?


I suspect the latter.  This is all about confusing owners just enough to get us to buy more points.


----------



## chapjim

Sandy VDH said:


> I guess I will just sit with my VIPP and see what happens.



Me, too!  We'll just have to deal with the name change from VIP Platinum to the unfortunate Privileges Titanium, if that's the way they go.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Kozman said:


> So? If I am currently Gold and will be 'grandfathered' in to Platinum does that mean I will then get a 50% discount instead of 35% discount that I currently get as Gold or will the name just change like getting an honorary college degree?



AFAIK though the names may change, the discount points window benefits for the levels you are at today will not change:

Emerald  300k-399k          --> 15% (new level)

Gold       400k-699k          --> 25% (previously Silver)
Platinum 700k-999k          --> 35% (previously Gold)
Diamond 1MM - 1.399mm --> 50% (previously Platinum)
Titanium  1.4MM+             --> 60% (new level)
I suspect the naming of the levels may change, but the structure of going from three to five tiers seems to be where things are headed.


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## paxsarah

This is the part that seems bananas to me. Why rename levels to previously existing names but change the points and benefits associated with those names? I know the theory is for intentional confusion, but I don't think Wyndham is ready for the level of customer service it would take to answer everyone's questions. When you have people who are grandfathered with original gold benefits but are now labeled platinum, it's going to take time just to establish the baseline of their account situation. I'd say, keep silver, gold, and platinum as they are at the core three levels, and add the new levels at the bottom and the top. (I vote for eliminating titanium, which while a great song, just doesn't sound like it fits with the other levels.) Or come up with 5 new names and retire the old ones. 5 gems would be nice and potentially colorful.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> This is the part that seems bananas to me. Why rename levels to previously existing names but change the points and benefits associated with those names? I know the theory is for intentional confusion, but I don't think Wyndham is ready for the level of customer service it would take to answer everyone's questions. When you have people who are grandfathered with original gold benefits but are now labeled platinum, it's going to take time just to establish the baseline of their account situation. I'd say, keep silver, gold, and platinum as they are at the core three levels, and add the new levels at the bottom and the top. (I vote for eliminating titanium, which while a great song, just doesn't sound like it fits with the other levels.) Or come up with 5 new names and retire the old ones. 5 gems would be nice and potentially colorful.



There is nothing indicating anything is being renamed per se.  Look at the actual letter from earlier in the thread, note what it says at the bottom in large capital letters:  IN DEVELOPMENT

The letter also does _not _provide a list of all five tiers, it simple provides some basic info on the two additional tiers.  It is everyone else _guessing _that the three existing tiers will fit into the new model based largely upon third party information from attending sales updates and from their particular contacts at Wyndham, myself included.  That same letter also says it will be late 2020 before Wyndham Privileges will launch, that's over a year away, and is subject to change.  Don't get caught up on the names, because they are largely irrelevant IMHO.  The overall point here is that the tiers will increase from three to five.  Whether they use precious metals, gems, or a combination thereof, who knows.  I'm more concerned with the actual_ changes to VIP benefits _at each level - and particularly if any of the tiers result in either a net gain or net loss when compared to the current VIP tiers.  According to the memo, the _only _message being communicated to the sales organization is to encourage owners that aren't quite VIP Silver today, to consider upgrading to VIP Silver after May 1, 2019, to preserve unlimited HK credits. I personally wouldn't do anything just yet, since this is all formative and still over a year out, but that's me.  I'm VIPP through Sept 2020 and VIPG after that point in time, so I will wait on the sidelines and see what all develops.


----------



## Richelle

HitchHiker71 said:


> There is nothing indicating anything is being renamed per se.  Look at the actual letter from earlier in the thread, note what it says at the bottom in large capital letters:  IN DEVELOPMENT
> 
> The letter also does _not _provide a list of all five tiers, it simple provides some basic info on the two additional tiers.  It is everyone else _guessing _that the three existing tiers will fit into the new model based largely upon third party information from attending sales updates and from their particular contacts at Wyndham, myself included.  That same letter also says it will be late 2020 before Wyndham Privileges will launch, that's over a year away, and is subject to change.  Don't get caught up on the names, because they are largely irrelevant IMHO.  The overall point here is that the tiers will increase from three to five.  Whether they use precious metals, gems, or a combination thereof, who knows.  I'm more concerned with the actual_ changes to VIP benefits _at each level - and particularly if any of the tiers result in either a net gain or net loss when compared to the current VIP tiers.  According to the memo, the _only _message being communicated to the sales organization is to encourage owners that aren't quite VIP Silver today, to consider upgrading to VIP Silver after May 1, 2019, to preserve unlimited HK credits. I personally wouldn't do anything just yet, since this is all formative and still over a year out, but that's me.  I'm VIPP through Sept 2020 and VIPG after that point in time, so I will wait on the sidelines and see what all develops.



Same. I’m taking the wait and see approach at the moment. We won’t lose anything by waiting, other then the inflating the cost of points, to take advantage of the mad rush to go VIP. 


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## ecwinch

HitchHiker71 said:


> I'm VIPP through Sept 2020 and VIPG after that point in time, so I will wait on the sidelines and see what all develops.



Actually I suspect you are exactly the segment they are targeting - those with temp VIP to a certain level.


----------



## dgalati

How can I become Titanium without buying developer points or spending a lot of money?


----------



## Eric B

dgalati said:


> How can I become Titanium without buying developer points or spending a lot of money?



Inherit an account with 1.4MM points from a family member....


----------



## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> Don't get caught up on the names, because they are largely irrelevant IMHO.



But honestly, it’s all irrelevant to me because I’m not VIP and have no plans to become one. The (suggested? proposed? assumed?) naming convention just jumped out at me due to the unnecessary complexity, so hopefully you’re correct that it didn’t actually originate with Wyndham. I’ll be watching quietly from the sidelines from now on, don’t worry.


----------



## HitchHiker71

ecwinch said:


> Actually I suspect you are exactly the segment they are targeting - those with temp VIP to a certain level.



Perhaps in a future iteration of the memo shared specific to this thread, but at present, the only specific recommendation shared in the memo is for those who are close to VIP silver to get over the hump prior to the program change to obtain unlimited HK credits.  I’m already permanent VIPG, so the contents of the memo do not address my specific circumstance.


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## vv813

does anyone speculate anything about pres. reserve since that also has a 1 million beginning point-changes, challenges etc


----------



## OutSkiing

paxsarah said:


> This is the part that seems bananas to me. Why rename levels to previously existing names but change the points and benefits associated with those names? I know the theory is for intentional confusion, but I don't think Wyndham is ready for the level of customer service it would take to answer everyone's questions. When you have people who are grandfathered with original gold benefits but are now labeled platinum, it's going to take time just to establish the baseline of their account situation. I'd say, keep silver, gold, and platinum as they are at the core three levels, and add the new levels at the bottom and the top. (I vote for eliminating titanium, which while a great song, just doesn't sound like it fits with the other levels.) Or come up with 5 new names and retire the old ones. 5 gems would be nice and potentially colorful.


I am thinking Kryptonite would be a good name for the top tier.  

Bob


----------



## CO skier

GRapuser said:


> This is just for fun, but I wanted to look at the value of the new speculated tier names. All of these are prices per pound.
> 
> Titanium - $30
> Diamond - $11,400,000 (for a pound of 1 carat diamonds, but value varies tremendously depending on quality)
> Platinum - $12,709.44
> Gold - $18,708.81
> Emerald - $226,796  (for a pound of 1 carat emeralds, but value varies tremendously depending on quality)
> 
> It would make much more sense to name the lowest level Titanium and the two highest levels Emerald and Diamond, but that is why it probably won't happen that way.


Californium runs about $12,000,000,000 per pound -- and it has no practical value.  If Wyndham goes with metals for the tiers, Californium would be a "hot" top tier choice.


----------



## dgalati

OutSkiing said:


> I am thinking Kryptonite would be a good name for the top tier.
> 
> Bob


Kryptonite better term for a resale buyer


----------



## Richelle

vv813 said:


> does anyone speculate anything about pres. reserve since that also has a 1 million beginning point-changes, challenges etc



The change is to the VIP program, at the moment. The only way it affects PR is the the benefits that come from being VIP Platinum. If they change the minimum level to be PR, that would be handled separately. PR is not a status like VIP. It’s an entirely different program from regular points, and had different set of rules. They get Platinum benefits because they have over one million points, not because they are PR. 


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## bryjake

Yes this is all speculation
Some speculation I would like to happen is Club Pass Worldmark to be bumped from 9 months to 10 months and a more detailed listed of which Shell properties will be Club Pass and if any are Wyndham / Shell combo

What jumps out at me is the specific reminder "to obtain current VIP silver now to keep unlimited HK"
They might be adjusting unlimited HK cut off to the top 3 ranks leaving the bottom 2 ranks with "leaner" privileges

I am also curious that they do not mention any time-bound element to the discounts
It would be crazy if the discounts are flat across the board
*Fingers Crossed* they open the discount windows a bit

I will also confess I am jealous that Worldmark is building a resort in Moab, UT.  I was hoping it was a Wyndham / Worldmark venture


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## HitchHiker71

bryjake said:


> Yes this is all speculation
> Some speculation I would like to happen is Club Pass Worldmark to be bumped from 9 months to 10 months and a more detailed listed of which Shell properties will be Club Pass and if any are Wyndham / Shell combo
> 
> What jumps out at me is the specific reminder "to obtain current VIP silver now to keep unlimited HK"
> They might be adjusting unlimited HK cut off to the top 3 ranks leaving the bottom 2 ranks with "leaner" privileges
> 
> I am also curious that they do not mention any time-bound element to the discounts
> It would be crazy if the discounts are flat across the board
> *Fingers Crossed* they open the discount windows a bit
> 
> I will also confess I am jealous that Worldmark is building a resort in Moab, UT.  I was hoping it was a Wyndham / Worldmark venture



If you review earlier posts in this thread, I do have confirmation this is under consideration.  The discount windows are under evaluation to either be enhanced or eliminated altogether.  There's also consideration for enhancing the upgrade windows.


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## ecwinch

bryjake said:


> Yes this is all speculation
> Some speculation I would like to happen is Club Pass Worldmark to be bumped from 9 months to 10 months



I dont see this ever happening. The 10 month is a very specific booking gate for both Club Wyndham and Worldmark and opening Club Pass availability at the same time diminishes the ability of WM members to make less than 7 day red season reservations inside 10 months. 

Nor do I think it would yield the benefits you might imagine. Due to all the cash booking options available to WM owners, WM reservations tend to be far more competitive than anything I see on the Club Wyndham side.


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## 55plus

Platinum is a more expense metal than Titanium per ounce, so why is Titanium at a higher level?

Inkjet printer ink is the most expensive liquid. Wyndham already have metals covered and going to gems as a level. Might they consider printer ink as a level? It's the most expensive liquid after all.


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## Braindead

Richelle said:


> PR is not a status like VIP.


I kinda think Presidential Reserve is indeed status & Presidential Reserve is higher status than any VIP level


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## Richelle

Braindead said:


> I kinda think Presidential Reserve is indeed status & Presidential Reserve is higher status than any VIP level



That’s how the sales people like to tout it, but in actually, it’s just the points are deeded to PR units.  Points that have higher maintenance fees too.  No where in the directory does it say that Presidential reserve is a status.  In the directory it states that PR members automatically get Platinum VIP status.


“As a Presidential Reserve Member who purchased through Wyndham Vacation Resorts, you automatically achieve the privilege of Platinum VIP status in CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, the elite level reserved for those Members who have 1,000,000 points or more. Please refer to the VIP section on pages 240- 245 for a complete listing of your Platinum VIP benefits and eligibility requirements.l

Not “PR” Platinum.  Just Platinum.  There is this as well:

“As a Presidential Reserve Member, you have access to an enticing array of special services, exclusive access to luxurious Presidential Reserve Suites and additional vacation options that put the world at your fingertips — as well as the honor of Platinum VIP status.”

The “honor” of Platinum status.  If PR were higher then Platinum, why would it be an “honor” to be Platinum. It would be like telling a Platinum member, they have the honor of having Gold benefits.

PR members get special perks at PR resorts, but that’s the extent of their special treatment.  Sales touts it as a status, because people doesn’t understand the other stuff. People who like the presidential rooms can see a benefit of having better access to presidential suites then your average Joe.  If I were retired and could afford it, I might consider going PR because we could get the nicer rooms and book them 50% off more easily then your average owner.  There is value in PR for the right people, but the sales monkeys go straight for people’s vanity and tout it as a status, because it’s easier to sell that way.


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## Braindead

Richelle said:


> That’s how the sales people like to tout it, but in actually, it’s just the points are deeded to PR units.  Points that have higher maintenance fees too.
> 
> automatically achieve the privilege of Platinum VIP
> 
> Not “PR” Platinum.  Just Platinum.  There is this as well:
> 
> PR members get special perks at PR resorts, but that’s the extent of their special treatment.  Sales touts it as a status, because people doesn’t understand the other stuff.


You & the ones that liked your post are too funny!! PR is just a sales ploy!!

But PR owners received the first PRIVILEGE as it’s supposed to be a big deal next year, has more benefits than VIP Platinum & has it’s own directory. But no status there!! LOL 

I guess I don’t understand the definition of “Status”


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## Richelle

Braindead said:


> You & the ones that liked your post are too funny!! PR is just a sales ploy!!
> 
> But PR owners received the first PRIVILEGE as it’s supposed to be a big deal next year, has more benefits than VIP Platinum & has it’s own directory. But no status there!! LOL
> 
> I guess I don’t understand the definition of “Status”



Or maybe we have a different definition of “status”. By their own directory, are you referring to that leather bound one that they pay $300 for?  I have one of those. It’s nice, but not worth $300 in my opinion. Considering how much they spent on those points, I’m not sure why they would charge them so much for the directory. If it’s status to pay for something, that the underlines get for free, then yeah, I guess they do have status. However, Wyndham doesn’t call it a status. You know what we say about what’s in writing versus what comes out of a sales skeeze’s mouth.   Anyway, I don’t think people care to watch us banter about what is or is not “status”.   Or whether there is perceived value in PR or not. That conversation could go on for DAYS!


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## paxsarah

Braindead said:


> You & the ones that liked your post are too funny!! PR is just a sales ploy!!



Although it’s _used_ as a sales ploy, it’s not _just_ a sales ploy and has very particular  benefits that some people choose very specifically (@wjappraise comes to mind). Right now, I think salespeople use PR as a selling tactic for people who are already platinum and many see it as a status and underutilize the benefits - but there are also owners who appreciate the deeded benefits of PR which are completely unrelated to VIP status.


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## 55plus

We are VIP Platinum. When we attend a briefing they try to sell us Presidential Reserve. We don't want or need the extra perks. But the catch is, for us to become Presidential Reserve we would have to sell our deeds back to Wyndham and be deeded in Presidential Reserve. Our ownership dates back to the early '90s when it was Fairfield and the point system was new and points were cheap. Our ownership cost around $30K, so Wyndham will only give us what we paid for what they are now selling for up to $200K. The math doesn't workout for us, but once again we don't want or need the perks.


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## Braindead

Richelle said:


> If PR were higher then Platinum, why would it be an “honor” to be Platinum.
> 
> Sales touts it as a status, because people doesn’t understand the other stuff.


So PR owners are below VIP Platinum & they are fools for not understanding the other stuff!! Got it


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## Braindead

Richelle said:


> That’s how the sales people like to tout it, but in actually, it’s just the points are deeded to PR units.  Points that have higher maintenance fees too.


How do you think sales tout VIP tiers? Your VIP Gold but actually aren’t your deeded points to the same units as a resale owner & your points have higher maintenance fees too.

You want status, I’ll give you the #1 status PR has in my opinion:
Unlimited RARP at 12 months to all PR units at all PR Resorts

Now that’s status in my humble opinion


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## paxsarah

Braindead said:


> So PR owners are below VIP Platinum & they are fools for not understanding the other stuff!! Got it



Why do you put words in someone’s mouth that aren’t at all what they said?


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## paxsarah

Braindead said:


> How do you think sales tout VIP tiers? Your VIP Gold but actually aren’t your deeded points to the same units as a resale owner & your points have higher maintenance fees too.
> 
> You want status, I’ll give you the #1 status PR has in my opinion:
> Unlimited RARP at 12 months to all PR units at all PR Resorts
> 
> Now that’s status in my humble opinion



That’s deeded access. Just like a Margaritaville deed has access to Margaritaville, or Myrtle Beach deeds have access to multiple MB resorts. It’s based on the deed, not a programmatic VIP status that can be modified at any time.


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## Richelle

Braindead said:


> How do you think sales tout VIP tiers? Your VIP Gold but actually aren’t your deeded points to the same units as a resale owner & your points have higher maintenance fees too.
> 
> You want status, I’ll give you the #1 status PR has in my opinion:
> Unlimited RARP at 12 months to all PR units at all PR Resorts
> 
> Now that’s status in my humble opinion



I do not mind bantering back and forth with you, because you do occasionally make me think. However, I meant what I said. I don’t think people care to watch us banter back and forth about whether PR is a status or not, so I will just leave it. I did want to clarify something though. I didn’t mean to insulate that Platinum was higher then PR. I think they are mostly the same. PR just has specific benefits to their inventory that is treated differently. I could go on, but again, I don’t want to fill up this thread with something that is off topic. If you want to start a new post about it, I’ll chime in. 


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## paxsarah

Richelle said:


> I didn’t mean to insulate that Platinum was higher then PR. I think they are mostly the same.



The term that comes to mind for me is parallel, or complementary. They carry different types of benefits. PR doesn't follow from the (current) sequence of silver, gold, platinum. It's an entirely different set of benefits.

In that regard, it makes a lot of sense for Wyndham to add another VIP tier above the current platinum level. Maybe the sales staff can then be (slightly) more intellectually honest and be able to sell it as an actual step up the VIP ladder, instead of trying to sell PR as that step when it's actually a very specific set of deeded benefits that is probably of no need to many platinum owners.


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## 55plus

Think of status like this: you know when you eat corn and the next day or so you can see a couple corn kernels in your #%$& before you flush. Those kernels have status because they stand out from the rest.


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## Jan M.

Richelle said:


> “As a Presidential Reserve Member who purchased through Wyndham Vacation Resorts, you automatically achieve the privilege of *Platinum VIP status* in CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, *the elite level* reserved for those Members who have 1,000,000 points or more.



This is what Richelle posted and quoted from the Directory.


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## Braindead

paxsarah said:


> Why do you put words in someone’s mouth that aren’t at all what they said?


When someone states “If PR was higher than Platinum, why would it be an “honor”to be Platinum”
I think thats an insult to PR owners & I think it’s a false statement as well.
If you have something Platinum in this instance plus more benefits above & beyond Platinum that’s above Platinum in my book & it’s called Presidential Reserve

When someone says “sales tout it as status, because people don’t understand the other stuff”
Again I think that’s insulting PR owners intelligence.
I think 99% or more of PR owners “understand the other stuff”


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## Braindead

paxsarah said:


> instead of trying to sell PR as that step when it's actually a very specific set of deeded benefits.


This is a false statement as well. The deed just list the unit #s of the PR units at the home resort. There are no other deeded benefits.
That’s why a resale PR lost all RARP with the last round of changes
Wyndham can change most PR benefits just like any VIP benefits
A 1,000,000 point PR resale doesn’t give you VIP Platinum either as it’s not a deeded benefit


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## Braindead

Braindead said:


> Unlimited RARP at 12 months to all PR units at all PR Resorts





paxsarah said:


> That’s deeded access. Just like a Margaritaville deed has access to Margaritaville, or Myrtle Beach deeds have access to multiple MB resorts. It’s based on the deed, not a programmatic VIP status that can be modified at any time.


That’s NOT deeded access as I pointed that out in the previous post


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## paxsarah

Braindead said:


> That’s NOT deeded access as I pointed that out in the previous post



Then show me someone who has access to PR benefits who doesn’t own a PR deed. ( I acknowledge that not all PR owners, e.g resale, have access to the full range of PR benefits, but that’s not the question I’m asking.)


----------



## Braindead

paxsarah said:


> That’s deeded access. Just like a Margaritaville deed has access to Margaritaville, or Myrtle Beach deeds have access to multiple MB resorts. It’s based on the deed, not a programmatic VIP status that can be modified at any time.





paxsarah said:


> Then show me someone who has access to PR benefits who doesn’t own a PR deed. ( I acknowledge that not all PR owners, e.g resale, have access to the full range of PR benefits, but that’s not the question I’m asking.)


I don’t see a question in your prior response. Of course you have to have a PR contract to get PR benefits but most are not deeded benefits


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## Baby Jane

bnoble said:


> I've always thought they would eventually follow in Diamond/Marriott's path: creating a product that is a non-deeded usage assignment with a fee structure or new purchase requirement to "requalify" the points if they are sold. I was a little surprised that CWA did not do that.
> 
> Edited to add: now that I think about it, I suppose that's actually quite like what Disney is doing. For those that don't know: their newest resort is, essentially, a distinct "club" with a 1-1 exchange program between it and existing resorts. However, only developer purchases can participate. If you buy resale points at the 14 older resorts, they can only be used in one of those 14, and cannot be used at this, the 15th. If you buy resale points at the 15th, they can only be used at that resort. Presumably each new resort going forward will follow the same model, and be a standalone "club"--at least, it will if this restriction doesn't give too many buyers cold feet. (And I don't think it will). As far as I know, Disney does not offer a way to "requalify" those points. Yet.


I can’t remember when but they did try none deeded. It was at least 20 years ago I am sure. I looked at the sales person and said. You want me to give you my deeded property and pay you more money for it not to be deeded. He was stunned. ‍. I can see them hiding something like that in a contract though


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## bnoble

CWA already is non-deeded. However, the membership "stays in the club" when you sell it to someone else. For Diamond (and, I believe, Marriott) it does not; it reverts to the underlying (less comprehensive) deed.


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## curtjones

Interesting discussion.  I also recently went to an update while in Orlando and they mentioned that the VIP levels would be changing.  As part of the discussion, I indicated that if I was going to purchase additional points it would be on the open market.  Their response was interesting..... they said that if I linked any open market points to my account it would invalidate my VIP status. I made them show me where that was indicated as policy and they pulled out a revised  VIP definition sheet ( at least it was new to me).  The sales person also showed me an account that was platinum where the individual purchased additional open market points, and lost their platinum VIP benefits.  That was definitely an eye opener for me.  Guess I will have to go see about purchasing some additional Marriott points.


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## ecwinch

How did they show you "an account that was platinum where the individual purchased additional open market points, and lost their platinum VIP benefits"?


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## HitchHiker71

curtjones said:


> Interesting discussion.  I also recently went to an update while in Orlando and they mentioned that the VIP levels would be changing.  As part of the discussion, I indicated that if I was going to purchase additional points it would be on the open market.  Their response was interesting..... they said that if I linked any open market points to my account it would invalidate my VIP status. I made them show me where that was indicated as policy and they pulled out a revised  VIP definition sheet ( at least it was new to me).  The sales person also showed me an account that was platinum where the individual purchased additional open market points, and lost their platinum VIP benefits.  That was definitely an eye opener for me.  Guess I will have to go see about purchasing some additional Marriott points.



AFAIK this policy isn’t in force yet but as I said earlier in this thread they are attacking this issue at both ends, meaning changes are under evaluation to the scope of impact for developer purchases and resale purchases.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ecwinch

HitchHiker71 said:


> AFAIK this policy isn’t in force yet but as I said earlier in this thread they are attacking this issue at both ends, meaning changes are under evaluation to the scope of impact for developer purchases and resale purchases.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Understood - but this report was that it is already happening - not about something occurring down the road.


----------



## dgalati

paxsarah said:


> Why do you put words in someone’s mouth that aren’t at all what they said?


He has a way of misinterpreting and can be sometimes very abrasive with his comments. He has a vey narrow view of someone else's opinion.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Think of status like this: you know when you eat corn and the next day or so you can see a couple corn kernels in your #%$& before you flush. Those kernels have status because they stand out from the rest.


Very interesting analysis.


----------



## Braindead

55plus said:


> Think of status like this: you know when you eat corn and the next day or so you can see a couple corn kernels in your #%$& before you flush. Those kernels have status because they stand out from the rest.





dgalati said:


> Very interesting analysis.


So dgalati does PR standout & have status in your opinion?


----------



## HitchHiker71

ecwinch said:


> Understood - but this report was that it is already happening - not about something occurring down the road.



Agreed.  Sales weasels will use any tool in the arsenal to make a deal - including false representations of the current state of affairs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Braindead

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed.  Sales weasels will use any tool in the arsenal to make a deal - including false representations of the current state of affairs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like a secret memo aimed at making urgent sales that may never come into play?


----------



## Jan M.

Does anyone else see what I see in this supposed memo from corporate? 

A memo from corporate would not contain statements like "*Why Buy Today? *While Privileges won't launch until late 2020, owners who make a purchase after May 1, 2019 will ensure their eligibility for the introductory tier. That means* locking in next year's benefits at today's prices." *It then goes on to say "What's better than a vacation? A vacation with even more privileges. *Now's the time* to dream bigger, dive deeper and explore further with Privileges." 

This was clearly created by sales and not even any kind of an even semi official announcement directly from corporate. Sales just loves it when we help them by feeding their rumor mill scare tactics.


----------



## ecwinch

Trust me..... reports are flooding into FB about them pushing this junk already. I would rather be well-informed on what their latest sales hook is.... 

One poster was even told congratulations on being upgraded to Emerald....  

As the sayings go forewarned is forearmed and knowledge is power.....


----------



## Jan M.

The second thing I would like to address that is really upsetting me about this thread. I'm seeing a lot of comments about Presidential Reserve and its associated Platinum VIP status from people who it appears are putting their own spin on what they read in the directory and/or on what they heard in a sales presentation. While we all are free to express our opinions in this thread it certainly seems to be more as people misrepresenting themselves as supposed knowledgeable sources of information about the subject when they are neither platinum nor Presidential Reserve owners.


"As a Presidential Reserve Member who purchased through Wyndham Vacation Resorts, you automatically achieve the privilege of *Platinum VIP status* in CLUB WYNDHAM Plus, *the elite level *reserved for those Members who have 1,000,000 points or more."


----------



## HitchHiker71

Jan M. said:


> Does anyone else see what I see in this supposed memo from corporate?
> 
> A memo from corporate would not contain statements like "*Why Buy Today? *While Privileges won't launch until late 2020, owners who make a purchase after May 1, 2019 will ensure their eligibility for the introductory tier. That means* locking in next year's benefits at today's prices." *It then goes on to say "What's better than a vacation? A vacation with even more privileges. *Now's the time* to dream bigger, dive deeper and explore further with Privileges."
> 
> This was clearly created by sales and not even any kind of an even semi official announcement directly from corporate. Sales just loves it when we help them by feeding their rumor mill scare tactics.



Actually no where does it say it’s from Wyndham Corporate.  It’s clearly a sales memo and clearly marked IN DEVELOPMENT.  

I really could care less about the picture of the memo except to say that it appears to align at a high level with information from sources that I trust within Wyndham.  That said, it’s all formative and is always subject to change.  The only confirmatory information that the sales memo demonstrates for me is going from three to five tiers.  The rest is just conversation until we actually see an official announcement.  It’s fun to prognosticate though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jan M.

HitchHiker71 said:


> Actually no where does it say it’s from Wyndham Corporate.  It’s clearly a sales memo and clearly marked IN DEVELOPMENT.
> 
> I really could care less about the picture of the memo except to say that it appears to align at a high level with information from sources that I trust within Wyndham.  That said, it’s all formative and is always subject to change.  The only confirmatory information that the sales memo demonstrates for me is going from three to five tiers.  The rest is just conversation until we actually see an official announcement.  It’s fun to prognosticate though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I should have gone on to repeat what I said previously about a new higher level only being a matter of time. I can remember hearing people talk about it for the last 10 years. Since there has been plenty of time to discuss the topic in this thread and get that all out of the way I thought it was a good time to ask my question. I really am truly interested in finding out if other people's reaction to reading that memo was the same as mine. If other people had the same initial knee jerk reaction I did because it so totally and obviously smacks of sales manipulation tactics.


----------



## 55plus

Since when does Titanium fall into line with precision metals? The current levels are by value. If you throw Titanium into the mix it would fall below Silver, not above Platinum.


----------



## 55plus

Precious metals like Technetium and Rhodium have a higher value than Platinum. Why would Wyndham place an inferior metal above Platinum? They wouldn't so this makes me think a sales weasel drew up the memo. Wyndham Corporate isn't that stupid, but sales weasels are.


----------



## Pathways

HitchHiker71 said:


> Actually no where does it say it’s from Wyndham Corporate. It’s clearly a sales memo and clearly marked IN DEVELOPMENT



In a company the size of Wyn, the marketing arm is a separate beast, and things like this come out of the marketing gurus.  In my own corporate experience, things have come out of marketing far more 'finished' than this and yet get totally changed or maybe never see the light of day to the customer.

But stuff gets passed around to sales managers for feedback and everyone makes copies (Even though they are told not to), then sales staff in the trenches gets a hold of it, and then ...... 

Bottom line since we are just speculating, this is still 'Wyndham Corporate' and subject to from minor changes to total redo.


----------



## kanerf

55plus said:


> Since when does Titanium fall into line with precision metals? The current levels are by value. If you throw Titanium into the mix it would fall below Silver, not above Platinum.


This is precisely what Marriott (now Bonvoy) did when they created the Titanium level which is above their Platinum level.


----------



## wjappraise

paxsarah said:


> Although it’s _used_ as a sales ploy, it’s not _just_ a sales ploy and has very particular  benefits that some people choose very specifically (@wjappraise comes to mind). Right now, I think salespeople use PR as a selling tactic for people who are already platinum and many see it as a status and underutilize the benefits - but there are also owners who appreciate the deeded benefits of PR which are completely unrelated to VIP status.



You are right, Sarah.  PR is a benefit that I appreciate . . .but I still overpaid for the whole thing.  I bought up to PR when I was a current VIP Gold and was close to Platinum.  So my purchase to VIP Platinum was simultaneous to PR status.  So, it was really a no-brainer for me, if I was buying up to Platinum, PR made sense.  If I was already VIP Platinum, I doubt that I would have purchased more points simply to go to PR.   There is a down side to PR status, and that is higher cost.  From my experience, any PR contract has a higher MF cost than another non-PR contract of the same size at the same resort. 

The whole idea of marketing various status and VIP levels is a great sales approach (ploy) as it intrigues some potential buyers, confuses some, and appeals to some to have the "best" membership available.


----------



## jwalk03

55plus said:


> Since when does Titanium fall into line with precision metals? The current levels are by value. If you throw Titanium into the mix it would fall below Silver, not above Platinum.



Marriott's updated rewards program also has Titanium as a level above Platinum. Must just be coping from them.  (Though there is no Emerald level in Marriott.)


----------



## Manzana

The levels it seems are trying to match the Levels for Wyndham Rewards.  Which have the same with the exception of emerald.  
Wyndham Reward levels are Blue, Gold, Platinum, Diamond, Titanium (Invite only franchise hotel owners).  So the names for the levels are not that new.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Jan M. said:


> I should have gone on to repeat what I said previously about a new higher level only being a matter of time. I can remember hearing people talk about it for the last 10 years. Since there has been plenty of time to discuss the topic in this thread and get that all out of the way I thought it was a good time to ask my question. I really am truly interested in finding out if other people's reaction to reading that memo was the same as mine. If other people had the same initial knee jerk reaction I did because it so totally and obviously smacks of sales manipulation tactics.



It will be interesting to see if it sticks.  VIPP owners have become accustomed to being at the top of the tiered VIP ladder for a long time.  If Wyndham does introduce a higher tier, then I surmise quite a number of VIPP owners will not be all that happy that there's another tier above them that may end up getting higher discounts, but perhaps more importantly, first dibs on auto-upgrades before VIPP owners.


----------



## 55plus

HitchHiker71 said:


> It will be interesting to see if it sticks.  VIPP owners have become accustomed to being at the top of the tiered VIP ladder for a long time.  If Wyndham does introduce a higher tier, then I surmise quite a number of VIPP owners will not be all that happy that there's another tier above them that may end up getting higher discounts, but perhaps more importantly, first dibs on auto-upgrades before VIPP owners.


There is some psychology to this. Some people want the 'best' no matter what the cost. Those are the people who buy those $200K plus cars and stay at very very high end hotels. I don't know how many of them are Wyndham timeshare owners. There are people who can't afford the best but will borrow to be on top. These are the people Wyndham is counting on if in fact they will add a tier above Platinum. Those who are Gold and Silver that haven't ventured up to Platinum, most probably will stay where they are at. I can see the change, if there is one, not producing that much revenue. What a surprise these new top tier owners are in for after a few years when Wyndham makes policy changes that change or take away some of their perks and benefits like they have done in the past to the other ownership levels.


----------



## curtjones

curtjones said:


> Interesting discussion.  I also recently went to an update while in Orlando and they mentioned that the VIP levels would be changing.  As part of the discussion, I indicated that if I was going to purchase additional points it would be on the open market.  Their response was interesting..... they said that if I linked any open market points to my account it would invalidate my VIP status. I made them show me where that was indicated as policy and they pulled out a revised  VIP definition sheet ( at least it was new to me).  The sales person also showed me an account that was platinum where the individual purchased additional open market points, and lost their platinum VIP benefits.  That was definitely an eye opener for me.  Guess I will have to go see about purchasing some additional Marriott points.


They showed me an account with the owner information all blacked out.


----------



## ecwinch

curtjones said:


> They showed me an account with the owner information all blacked out.



Understood. Let me rephrase.

How did they show you that the person had VIP status at one time, then added open market (resale) points to their account, and then show you that was the reason they lost their VIP status?


----------



## Xcalibur

Lovely .. So now they are resorting to veiled threats in the 'updates'. Just another reason to avoid them.


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> So dgalati does PR standout & have status in your opinion?


BD,
Read the post it makes no mention of PR or status in my opinion.     



55plus said:


> Think of status like this: you know when you eat corn and the next day or so you can see a couple corn kernels in your #%$& before you flush. Those kernels have status because they stand out from the rest.





dgalati said:


> Very interesting analysis.


----------



## 55plus

Can you image the uprising, lawsuits and public relations damage to Wyndham's brand if they take away VIP status to anyone who purchased resell? That's a road they wouldn't dare to down. Just the threat of it that the sales weasels are putting out is going to damage Wyndham's brand.

Someone spends $200K on a VIP package and loses the VIP benefits for buying resell for a $100 is going to lose the benefits? I don't think so.


----------



## Silverdollar

HitchHiker71 said:


> It will be interesting to see if it sticks.  VIPP owners have become accustomed to being at the top of the tiered VIP ladder for a long time.  If Wyndham does introduce a higher tier, then I surmise quite a number of VIPP owners will not be all that happy that there's another tier above them that may end up getting higher discounts, but perhaps more importantly, first dibs on auto-upgrades before VIPP owners.


I have plans to go to a Wyndham resort later this week. I don't go to owner updates (sales presentations) any more, but I might make an exception to hear what they have to say about the new "Wyndham Privileges" program. As a VIPP owner, I am interested to see what they have to say and how it might affect my ownership. Of course, I will take it all with a grain of salt. 

When this thread first started, I thought it could break a Tug record for "Replies" and "Views", especially since the program will not be fully rolled out until the end of 2020. Between now and then there will probably be a lot speculation and anticipation about what "the final product" will look like. So, I am thinking this will be a hot topic for many months to come. 

If I attend the update, I will report back what they said in order to compare and contrast what others have reported here. I would appreciate if you and others would report their findings as well.


----------



## Braindead

55plus said:


> Think of status like this: you know when you eat corn and the next day or so you can see a couple corn kernels in your #%$& before you flush. Those kernels have status because they stand out from the rest.





dgalati said:


> Very interesting analysis.


----------



## Braindead

dgalati said:


> BD,
> Read the post it makes no mention of PR or status in my opinion.


You were responding to a post that used “status” twice. Status referenced as something that “stands out”
The discussion was about “status”. You put yourself into the discussion 

Still waiting on your answer


----------



## dgalati

BD,
Think of status like this: you know when you eat corn and the next day or so you can see a couple corn kernels in your #%$& before you flush. Those kernels have status because they stand out from the rest.


----------



## happyhopian

dgalati said:


> BD,
> Think of status like this: you know when you eat corn and the next day or so you can see a couple corn kernels in your #%$& before you flush. Those kernels have status because they stand out from the rest.


 
LOL
I'm sorry but that is such a great way to shut the door. Braindead keeps asking stupid questions and apparently can't understand that people can have a difference of opinion.


----------



## dgalati

happyhopian said:


> LOL
> I'm sorry but that is such a great way to shut the door. Braindead keeps asking stupid questions and apparently can't understand that people can have a difference of opinion.


Agreed I never want to block or ignore posters but sometimes it cant be avoided. Everyones opinion is worth a read. I may not agree with all opinions but I try to keep a open mind and not have a pretty narrow minded & a narrow view of some ones else's opinion.


----------



## geist1223

Silverdollar said:


> I have plans to go to a Wyndham resort later this week. I don't go to owner updates (sales presentations) any more, but I might make an exception to hear what they have to say about the new "Wyndham Privileges" program. As a VIPP owner, I am interested to see what they have to say and how it might affect my ownership. Of course, I will take it all with a grain of salt.
> 
> When this thread first started, I thought it could break a Tug record for "Replies" and "Views", especially since the program will not be fully rolled out until the end of 2020. Between now and then there will probably be a lot speculation and anticipation about what "the final product" will look like. So, I am thinking this will be a hot topic for many months to come.
> 
> If I attend the update, I will report back what they said in order to compare and contrast what others have reported here. I would appreciate if you and others would report their findings as well.



Can you trust anything a salesperson says?


----------



## Richelle

geist1223 said:


> Can you trust anything a salesperson says?



Nope. It’s when their stories start to line up with others, about changes, that it generates buzz. Sure they share the same sales schemes but this is something we knew would eventually happen. I’ve also heard this from multiple sources, who said their VP told them there were changes. These sources were not in a sales presentation, nor did they try selling me anything. Of course, It could all be a hoax. If it was, it would be one of the more impressive ones, because they have so many sales people at different offices, giving the same information.   New tiers, name changes, etc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 55plus

Because of all this hype and curiosity I expect those who read TUG and generally refuse to attend owners updates will be flocking to the meeting. Maybe this was Wyndham's plan all along?


----------



## paxsarah

55plus said:


> Because of all this hype and curiosity I expect those who read TUG and generally refuse to attend owners updates will be flocking to the meeting. Maybe this was Wyndham's plan all along?



Maybe some fraction? And maybe that’s good enough for Wyndham. But it still doesn’t have any bearing on me - I don’t consider silver benefits worth a retail purchase, so I certainly won’t find the lighter emerald benefits worth it, either. And we certainly don’t need the number of points associated with the current gold level at this point in our lives. So the only reason I’ll go to a sales presentation is if I’m truly bored and value the gift over my time (which in nine years hasn’t happened yet).


----------



## Cyrus24

May 16th is tomorrow.  Will find out if this has all been hype.  Anything new from actual updates this week?


----------



## Richelle

Another page was posted in the Facebook groups.  I noticed the date on the top of the page say May XX, 2019, yet in the message, it gives more specific dates.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

55plus said:


> Because of all this hype and curiosity I expect those who read TUG and generally refuse to attend owners updates will be flocking to the meeting. Maybe this was Wyndham's plan all along?



I’m not sure about that. Anyone who’s been reading TUG long enough, knows that a sales meeting (aka Owner update) is not the place to get truthful answers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chapjim

Richelle said:


> Another page was posted in the Facebook groups.  I noticed the date on the top of the page say May XX, 2019, yet in the message, it gives more specific dates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Wonder how they are going to reconcile May XX (in the header) with May 1 in the text.  The header date will have to be May 1 or they will have to change the date in the text.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Richelle said:


> I’m not sure about that. Anyone who’s been reading TUG long enough, knows that a sales meeting (aka Owner update) is not the place to get truthful answers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



According to that most recent memo picture, tomorrow will tell the tale.  That memo aligns perfectly with what my internal contact indicated to me weeks back now.  Let’s see what happens tomorrow! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## erniecrews

Richelle said:


> Another page was posted in the Facebook groups.  I noticed the date on the top of the page say May XX, 2019, yet in the message, it gives more specific dates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you have page 2 and 3?


----------



## Richelle

erniecrews said:


> Do you have page 2 and 3?



Sadly no. I would have definitely posted it here.  I’m posting these as I find them on the Facebook posts. Maybe we’ll know more tomorrow. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cyrus24

I apologize for not posting these earlier, I truly thought that they were already 'out there'.


----------



## Braindead

5th question on page 2 regarding Presidential Reserve owners.
PR owners with less than 1,400,000 points will automatically be enrolled in the Titanium Privilege tier.
Now that’s Elite Ownership status!!!


----------



## Richelle

Cyrus24 said:


> View attachment 11821 View attachment 11820
> I apologize for not posting these earlier, I truly thought that they were already 'out there'.



That answers a few of the questions we’ve been talking about. Thank you.

I wonder if this will mirror the Wyndham Destinations Asian Pacific
Privileges program. 

https://www.privilegesbywyndham.com.au



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HitchHiker71

Well, nothing in my Inbox yet from Wyndham for any announcement...


----------



## HitchHiker71

Cyrus24 said:


> View attachment 11821 View attachment 11820
> I apologize for not posting these earlier, I truly thought that they were already 'out there'.



Thanks for posting these, good info.  I would note the words "evolving benefits" with regard to changes to VIP benefits, along with "further updates" as we get closer to an actual announcement.  In other words, this can all still change.


----------



## Richelle

HitchHiker71 said:


> Well, nothing in my Inbox yet from Wyndham for any announcement...



Same. Their sales hub website isn’t loading correctly. The VIP information remains the same despite being labeled as “New”. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

Found something.  Not much. 



https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cyrus24

Richelle said:


> Same. Their sales hub website isn’t loading correctly. The VIP information remains the same despite being labeled as “New”.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Never heard of the sales hub website.  And, no emails from Wyndham in my mailbox.


----------



## Richelle

Cyrus24 said:


> Never heard of the sales hub website.  And, no emails from Wyndham in my mailbox.



It’s where the sales people get a lot of the brochures they give out at meetings, or display in presentations. Not sure why it’s wide open to the public, but I recognize some of the material from previous updates. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

I thought this Brochure was old, but I noticed the mid-week clean and tidy was removed from the Gold benefit. Plus the date is 5/19 2019 in the lower right hand corner of the last page. 

The date of the Privileges brochure is also 5/19/19. Maybe that’s when they will announce?

https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/VIP_Overview.pdf



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 55plus

How are the Wyndham owners who are blacklisted from owner presentations going to be able to purchase to upgrade if they are blacklisted from further purchases? Not that any would purchase more points, but what if some wanted to obtain a VIP level or a higher VIP level?


----------



## Richelle

55plus said:


> How are the Wyndham owners who are blacklisted from owner presentations going to be able to purchase to upgrade if they are blacklisted from further purchases? Not that any would purchase more points, but what if some wanted to obtain a VIP level or a higher VIP level?



I’ve heard of people getting removed from the “Do not sell” list, but I am not the circumstances behind it. Whether it was an error on Wyndham’s part that they were on the list, or they decided to remove them from the list because there was no reason to leave them on it.  I would imagine a determine slick sales person could find a way to get someone off of it for the right price. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ecwinch

55plus said:


> How are the Wyndham owners who are blacklisted from owner presentations going to be able to purchase to upgrade if they are blacklisted from further purchases? Not that any would purchase more points, but what if some wanted to obtain a VIP level or a higher VIP level?



They always can buy from corporate telesales. The list is called DNG - as in Do Not Gift (for attending a presentation). Not ... do not sell ... which I think is something else


----------



## ecwinch

Richelle said:


> I thought this Brochure was old, but I noticed the mid-week clean and tidy was removed from the Gold benefit. Plus the date is 5/19 2019 in the lower right hand corner of the last page.
> 
> The date of the Privileges brochure is also 5/19/19. Maybe that’s when they will announce?
> 
> https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/VIP_Overview.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Club Pass discounts... that sounds interesting...


----------



## wjappraise

Braindead said:


> 5th question on page 2 regarding Presidential Reserve owners.
> PR owners with less than 1,400,000 points will automatically be enrolled in the Titanium Privilege tier.
> Now that’s Elite Ownership status!!!



Hey, BD.  

As another PR owner, I agree with you that PR has certain features that work well for me (and likely you).  However, don't try to convince other owners that it does have value.  If more owners become PR owners, it will minimize the availability of certain units for you and me!  

While this post is clearly "tongue in cheek," there is some merit to my assertion.  PR is possibly the least understood level/status in the Wyndham ownership spectrum.

Wes


----------



## chapjim

Anybody figure out "Exclusive rotating benefits" yet?

There's a colon after "Exclusive rotating benefits" so it would seem that they are All-inclusive experiences and Club Pass points discounts.  

I don't get it.  Maybe that's because I got a B- in Marketing in 1965.


----------



## Richelle

chapjim said:


> Anybody figure out "Exclusive rotating benefits" yet?
> 
> There's a colon after "Exclusive rotating benefits" so it would seem that they are All-inclusive experiences and Club Pass points discounts.
> 
> I don't get it.  Maybe that's because I got a B- in Marketing in 1965.



Maybe it means that they get exclusive discounts, benefits, or other deals that change from time to time. Sort of like the points discount specials, but exclusive to titanium. That’s my best guess. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

ecwinch said:


> They always can buy from corporate telesales. The list is called DNG - as in Do Not Gift (for attending a presentation). Not ... do not sell ... which I think is something else



I know of someone who was told they were on the do not sell list and telesales wouldn’t sell her points. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HitchHiker71

I just received the formal email into my Inbox, screenshot attached for reference.


----------



## Manzana

HitchHiker71 said:


> I just received the formal email into my Inbox, screenshot attached for reference.


I just got the email as well.


----------



## paxsarah

“simplified”


----------



## 55plus

HitchHiker71 said:


> I just received the formal email into my Inbox, screenshot attached for reference.
> 
> View attachment 11847


Instead of being considered 'Elite' or have 'Status' we are now Privileged. So does that means VIP owners had the privilege of giving Wyndham boatloads of money?


----------



## Braindead

wjappraise said:


> Hey, BD.
> 
> As another PR owner, I agree with you that PR has certain features that work well for me (and likely you).  However, don't try to convince other owners that it does have value.  If more owners become PR owners, it will minimize the availability of certain units for you and me!
> 
> While this post is clearly "tongue in cheek," there is some merit to my assertion.  PR is possibly the least understood level/status in the Wyndham ownership spectrum.
> 
> Wes


Oh no you outed me, now they know I’m a PR owner & I actually know what’s on a PR deed!! LOL. I don’t care that you outed me after all we’re all friends here, well most of the time anyway! LOL 

Yes I love being a snob PR owner with benefits!!


----------



## comicbookman

HitchHiker71 said:


> I just received the formal email into my Inbox, screenshot attached for reference.
> 
> View attachment 11847


and it has showed up in my inbox as well.  Not terribly inspiring.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> “simplified”



Indeed.  I'm hopeful that this is referencing the possibility that I've heard internally that the points percentage discounts and possibly even the upgrade windows will no longer apply only within a defined window.


----------



## bnoble

HitchHiker71 said:


> Indeed. I'm hopeful that this is referencing the possibility that I've heard internally that the points percentage discounts and possibly even the upgrade windows will no longer apply only within a defined window.


Wyndham fell all over themselves to more effectively enforce the window by making cancel-rebook impossible just a few years ago. This seems astonishingly unlikely to me.

But, I've been wrong before---many times.


----------



## chapjim

Oh, man!  That memo is so full of it I don't even know where to start!

Having neutered the most valuable of VIP benefits, Wyndham is simplifying and re-imagining the VIP program to help maximize the VIP experience.  What a crock!

How generous!  Throw the canary another seed.


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> Oh no you outed me, now they know I’m a PR owner & I actually know what’s on a PR deed!! LOL. I don’t care that you outed me after all we’re all friends here, well most of the time anyway! LOLYes I love being a snob PR owner with benefits!!



BD,
You should be proud of those benefits that were paid for and give you status.Remember what status is. 55plus explained it very well. Congratulations to you for becoming a PR VIP owner and becoming a SNOB. Many PR VIP owners are renting me points for less then it costs me to pay maintenance fees. I wouldn't consider them and many of them would not consider themselves to be snobs for buying into PR VIP status.


----------



## dgalati

Richelle said:


> I know of someone who was told they were on the do not sell list and telesales wouldn’t sell her points.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was told they could not sell me if they wanted to. March of 2019 at Bonnet Creek. Maybe they seen all the resale deeds purchased? In and out in less then 40 minutes.


----------



## Richelle

dgalati said:


> I was told they could not sell me if they wanted to. March of 2019 at Bonnet Creek. Maybe they seen all the resale deeds purchased? In and out in less then 40 minutes.



Did they tell you why?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Oh, man!  That memo is so full of it I don't even know where to start!
> 
> Having neutered the most valuable of VIP benefits, Wyndham is simplifying and re-imagining the VIP program to help maximize the VIP experience.  What a crock!
> 
> How generous!  Throw the canary another seed.


Do you feel hoodwinked?


----------



## Richelle

Braindead said:


> Oh no you outed me, now they know I’m a PR owner & I actually know what’s on a PR deed!! LOL. I don’t care that you outed me after all we’re all friends here, well most of the time anyway! LOL
> 
> Yes I love being a snob PR owner with benefits!!



Congrats. I hope you enjoy using it, you snob!  Lol. J/k of course. I don’t see you pulling off being a snob for more then 5 minutes. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati

Richelle said:


> Did they tell you why?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I had a open case on use year alignment. It was more about the salesman knowing I bought all resale and he had no chance of selling me devolper points. PR VIP is not on my agenda if I can rent from a VIP for less then I pay in maintenance fees


----------



## Richelle

dgalati said:


> BD,
> You should be proud of those benefits that were paid for and give you status.Remember what status is. 55plus explained it very well. Congratulations to you for becoming a PR VIP owner and becoming a SNOB. Many PR VIP owners are renting me points for less then it costs me to pay maintenance fees. I wouldn't consider them and many of them would not consider themselves to be snobs for buying into PR VIP status.



I was talking to an owner, who was told they are no longer selling PR. A few others in their group said they were told the same thing. I think sales is pulling their leg, but I cannot think of why, other then Wyndham is limiting the number of PR points one can buy.  Maybe they don’t want people to know they are limiting them, so they make up an excuse. Maybe someone else here can say if they heard the same?  I would think, they would convert some presidential units into PR to get more inventory. They may even look to expand the PR portfolio by converting presidential units at resorts that are not currently in the portfolio. I find it hard to believe there is no more inventory. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati

Richelle said:


> I was talking to an owner, who was told they are no longer selling PR. A few others in their group said they were told the same thing. I think sales is pulling their leg, but I cannot think of why, other then Wyndham is limiting the number of PR points one can buy.  Maybe they don’t want people to know they are limiting them, so they make up an excuse. Maybe someone else here can say if they heard the same?  I would think, they would convert some presidential units into PR to get more inventory. They may even look to expand the PR portfolio by converting presidential units at resorts that are not currently in the portfolio. I find it hard to believe there is no more inventory.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wyndham will buy , no I don't mean take back those deeds through Ovation. They will buy a through a third party  If they need inventory to sell to owners looking for status of PR VIP.


----------



## vv813

haven't heard anything bout not selling more pr but could it have something to do with titanium level or whatever needing 1.4 mil. to qualify for that level and pr was 1 mil.


----------



## Jan M.

I have to confess to being really, really surprised that the announcement came out today on our Wyndham website. Even though I've said that I thought it was only a matter of time until a new higher VIP level was introduced I didn't think the announcement would come out for at least several more months. And even with those extra two pages that Cyrus24 posted I was still doubtful that an announcement would actually be made today.

However now my inner cat's curiosity is only partially satisfied and will remain that way until all the details are officially announced.


----------



## chapjim

dgalati said:


> Do you feel hoodwinked?



Hoodwinked isn't the right word.  I accept (accept, not like) the May 2017 changes and have changed my way of doing things to try to compensate.  I just get tired of the crap.  

I find especially annoying all the hyperbole and the way they spin every thing to make it sound like Wyndham's principal concern is the benefits to owners.  It is incredible that someone could write this stuff and pitch it to VIP owners -- the ones who have spent the greatest amount  of money, been around longest, and best understand the program and what has happened over the years -- and think they will buy it.


----------



## Braindead

Richelle said:


> but I noticed the mid-week clean and tidy was removed from the Gold benefit.


I’m guessing that’s not a loss of a benefit because Gold Privilege is the current VIP Silver & Silver doesn’t currently have that benefit.

I wonder when the Emerald level will be available.
Why would anyone want to buy today in the 300,000 - 399,000 range without being Emerald & then be forced to buy another 84k points to get any benefits? You would be forced to skip over the Emerald level & go to Privilege Gold.
This could hurt sales not help them short term.


----------



## HitchHiker71

bnoble said:


> Wyndham fell all over themselves to more effectively enforce the window by making cancel-rebook impossible just a few years ago. This seems astonishingly unlikely to me.
> 
> But, I've been wrong before---many times.



I totally hear you and we are all suspending judgment until we see what actually happens.  That said, most of the prior changes in 2012 and in 2016/2017 that can easily be categorized as negative were prior to the new CEO coming onboard, who is very customer focused in comparison.  He has been personally involved in the VIP changes to date from what I understand.  It's his name signed at the bottom of this recent memo.  From what people have told me, he takes his job seriously and realizes that it's the owners that matter most, and particularly those of us who are VIP owners and have made a comparatively large investment of our monies when compared to others.  I'm holding out hope, call it cautious optimism perhaps, that we'll actually see enhancements to the VIP program as part of this whole process.


----------



## chapjim

HitchHiker71 said:


> I totally hear you and we are all suspending judgment until we see what actually happens.  That said, most of the prior changes in 2012 and in 2016/2017 that can easily be categorized as negative were prior to the new CEO coming onboard, who is very customer focused in comparison.  He has been personally involved in the VIP changes to date from what I understand.  It's his name signed at the bottom of this recent memo.  From what people have told me, he takes his job seriously and realizes that it's the owners that matter most, and particularly those of us who are VIP owners and have made a comparatively large investment of our monies when compared to others.  I'm holding out hope, call it cautious optimism perhaps, that we'll actually see enhancements to the VIP program as part of this whole process.



Color me skeptical.

Concern for owners must be secondary to concern for stockholders.  They may be in alignment but if they are not, owners will be a secondary concern.  This is basic corporate governance.


----------



## Richelle

chapjim said:


> Color me skeptical.
> 
> Concern for owners must be secondary to concern for stockholders.  They may be in alignment but if they are not, owners will be a secondary concern.  This is basic corporate governance.



They are a business. Their first and foremost concern is keeping the doors open. Second is keeping the shareholders happy. If they are not happy, they bail and that hurts Wyndham’s ability to maintain their first priority. Shareholders affect their bottom line.  We come in third, because again, without us, they cannot maintain the first priority. I’m not saying it’s all sunshine and rainbows. I’m saying, I am not surprised money is a factor. It’s how all companies work. At least the ones that want to stay in business. A CEO worth their weight, isn’t going to work for peanuts. If Wyndham doesn’t pay them in line with other CEOs of similar size companies (at the very least) they are not going to get the best talent.  If they don’t get the best, or at least close to the best, Wyndham goes in the toilet and our timeshares are not just worthless, their useless.  That being said, I don’t agree with the sales tactics used. A good CEO should have good sales executives working for him, that can come up with better ways to sell, that do not Involve lying and cheating. I am not sure if he is working on that, or turning a blind eye like the rest. He’s only been at the helm for a couple years. They’ve been using the same sales practices for a decade now. I cannot say with any certainty, that things should have changed by now, but I would imagine it wouldn’t be easy to make a change like that. Maybe I’m an optimist, but I’m going to withhold judgment until I see what they change in the next year or so. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

Braindead said:


> I’m guessing that’s not a loss of a benefit because Gold Privilege is the current VIP Silver & Silver doesn’t currently have that benefit.
> 
> I wonder when the Emerald level will be available.
> Why would anyone want to buy today in the 300,000 - 399,000 range without being Emerald & then be forced to buy another 84k points to get any benefits? You would be forced to skip over the Emerald level & go to Privilege Gold.
> This could hurt sales not help them short term.



I had the same thought about Emerald. I’m guessing that level is being targeted to people that are in the 200,000 point range. The smallest package that can be bought is 28,000 points from telesales. There is not a chance a resort sales person would bother with a package like that, so most likely they would try to sell 84,000 points or more. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71

chapjim said:


> Color me skeptical.
> 
> Concern for owners must be secondary to concern for stockholders.  They may be in alignment but if they are not, owners will be a secondary concern.  This is basic corporate governance.



The cost of obtaining a net new customer is much higher than the cost of retaining an existing paying customer.  This is also basic corporate best practice and governance.  Concern for owners and concern for stockholders is therefore one and the same as far as I'm concerned.  VIP owners are existing customers, and furthermore, we are existing customers who have demonstrated an ability and willingness to invest into the company.  I get what you are saying in that any publicly held company is beholden to their stockholders - at least those with voting rights.  But to upset your best existing paying customers, is death to any business in today's business climate.  If Wyndham is listening, they will enhance the VIP program to ensure they retain as many happy customers as is possible.


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Hoodwinked isn't the right word.  I accept (accept, not like) the May 2017 changes and have changed my way of doing things to try to compensate.  I just get tired of the crap.
> 
> I find especially annoying all the hyperbole and the way they spin every thing to make it sound like Wyndham's principal concern is the benefits to owners.  It is incredible that someone could write this stuff and pitch it to VIP owners -- the ones who have spent the greatest amount  of money, been around longest, and best understand the program and what has happened over the years -- and think they will buy it.



Many Bought into the sales pitch as it is easy to get caught up in the high pressure sales tactics. Wyndhams main concern has never been about benefits to owners. Their main concern is  sell more points for profit$.


----------



## Braindead

dgalati said:


> Many Bought into the sales pitch as it is easy to get caught up in the high pressure sales tactics. Wyndhams main concern has never been about benefits to owners. Their main concern is  sell more points for profit$.


Wyndham became number 1 in timeshares by striking a balance of happy owners & happy stockholders. You can’t have one without the other & have a strong viable business.

We all may get our bitch on at times but we are all still owners & for the most part happy owners. Do I get pissed off & frustrated with Wyndham? Sure I do but I’m still a happy owner. As owners we always want it all when it comes to benefits even though we know that’s not possible. While stockholders want the stock to double every year even though they know that’s not going to happen.

I’m guessing the last round of changes has backfired & not working out as planned. Now the CEO Mr Brown has decided that action is needed as words trying to smooth over the last changes haven’t pacified us owners.

I’m cautiously optimistic also!! The only reason the upcoming changes are taking place is that CEO Mr Brown acknowledges something needs to be done to keep a happy customer base-us the owners.

I give Mr Brown credit for listening & deciding action is needed. I may change my mind in a year and half when all this takes effect but for now I’m giving him a chance to make a positive change for us the owners.

I want to make one thing clear. We all have “status”. The word “owner” gives you “status”. Yes in my book even a resale only “owner” has “status” in Wyndham Destinations


----------



## bogey21

I wonder how you Wyndham owners like the name "Privileges"?  It sounds to me like they are trying to make you feel special.  I'm not a Wyndham owner, just an outsider looking in.  I also kind of wonder what MVC owners think of "Bonvoy" which also makes no sense to me.  Maybe I have too much time on my hands...

George


----------



## wjappraise

bogey21 said:


> I wonder how you Wyndham owners like the name "Privileges"?  It sounds to me like they are trying to make you feel special.  I'm not a Wyndham owner, just an outsider looking in.  I also kind of wonder what MVC owners think of "Bonvoy" which also makes no sense to me.  Maybe I have too much time on my hands...
> 
> George



Great point.  

I’m not sure what term I prefer but I’ve never liked “VIP”.  it’s so pretentious.  Like my level of ownership elevates my value as a person... please.   

And I believe the result has been the air of entitlement that permeates some owners at check in.  I hate using the VIP line simply because of the way some VIP owners act and treat the check in personnel. I hope they do away with the second check in line.  We can all wait for the next desk man or woman.  

My VIP status is the result of some poor financial choices in years past.  I clearly overpaid prior to finding this blog site. 

I tried to make chicken salad by finally going Platinum and PR.  But to me I’m not proud of my VIP status.  It speaks to my impetuous nature more than my value as a human.  

Wes.


----------



## Sandy VDH

I got my VIP Platinum by purchasing 160K directly from Wyndham, but no more.  The rest were PIC weeks and fixed week (some family, some resales) conversions to points.  So though I had to pay something to Wyndham I did not overpay, but I did it deliberately to obtain VIPP.  I even got it written into my contract that VIP P was part of the deal.  They tried to remove it a few years ago when they dismissed resales from qualifying, but since I did have it written into the contract, it forced them to restore my VIPP status.


----------



## chapjim

wjappraise said:


> <snip>
> I hope they do away with the second check in line.  *We can all wait for the next desk man or woman.*
> <snip>
> 
> We never get any place early enough to have to contend with any lines at all!  If there were a bell on the counter, we'd have to ring it to get someone to come out front!


----------



## Braindead

I’ve been racking my brain[I can hear the chuckles] wondering why this would be announced so far in advance along with some of the terms used. Here’s some speculation:

All owners use year will be the calendar year. 

I would bet the number one reason for phone calls is on auto upgrades. 
All upgrades are gone history. To many paths, to many quirks at different resorts, same reservation is in the upgrade period for one owner but not the next. This is the number one area that I see Wyndham would be liable in a lawsuit, pretty open & shut case when you can show an upgrade was available but you didn’t get it. Auto upgrades-Voyager has been a failure & easy to prove.

On rotating discounts:
0-3 months, Express Window
60% for Titanium
45% for Diamond 
30% for Gold 
15% for Emerald

3-6 months
40% for Titanium 
30% for Diamond 
20% for Gold 
10% for Emerald 

6-9 months maybe 10 but doubt it
20% for Titanium 
15% for Diamond 
10% for Gold 
5% for Emerald 

Beyond 9 or 10 months no discount

I think the word Diamond is significant. Remember the rumors about Wyndham buying-merger with Diamond Resorts.
More destinations was a comment so maybe Diamond Privilege or higher[Titanium] level gets access to Diamond Resorts

Simplified, easy to program. I wouldn’t be surprised if Voyager is history also. Hate to think of a new website but it couldn’t be much worse than the Voyager rollout and this could be another reason the changes were announced so far in advance.
Your upgrades are gone but you’ll get more discounted reservations 

I had fun speculating anyway


----------



## HitchHiker71

Braindead said:


> I’ve been racking my brain[I can hear the chuckles] wondering why this would be announced so far in advance along with some of the terms used. Here’s some speculation:
> 
> All owners use year will be the calendar year.
> 
> I would bet the number one reason for phone calls is on auto upgrades.
> All upgrades are gone history. To many paths, to many quirks at different resorts, same reservation is in the upgrade period for one owner but not the next. This is the number one area that I see Wyndham would be liable in a lawsuit, pretty open & shut case when you can show an upgrade was available but you didn’t get it. Auto upgrades-Voyager has been a failure & easy to prove.
> 
> On rotating discounts:
> 0-3 months, Express Window
> 60% for Titanium
> 45% for Diamond
> 30% for Gold
> 15% for Emerald
> 
> 3-6 months
> 40% for Titanium
> 30% for Diamond
> 20% for Gold
> 10% for Emerald
> 
> 6-9 months maybe 10 but doubt it
> 20% for Titanium
> 15% for Diamond
> 10% for Gold
> 5% for Emerald
> 
> Beyond 9 or 10 months no discount
> 
> I think the word Diamond is significant. Remember the rumors about Wyndham buying-merger with Diamond Resorts.
> More destinations was a comment so maybe Diamond Privilege or higher[Titanium] level gets access to Diamond Resorts
> 
> Simplified, easy to program. I wouldn’t be surprised if Voyager is history also. Hate to think of a new website but it couldn’t be much worse than the Voyager rollout and this could be another reason the changes were announced so far in advance.
> Your upgrades are gone but you’ll get more discounted reservations
> 
> I had fun speculating anyway



Michael Brown approved 16MM in funds for a significant website overhaul several months ago from what have been told.  My understanding is that the coding for this project started recently.  You are probably on target that Voyager will be replaced or significantly upgraded as part of this program change.  

On the discounts, who knows really.  I’ve heard several rumors from discount windows disappearing in entirety, to the expansion of discount window times based upon tiers, along with auto-upgrade windows to boot.  I think these are the elements that have yet to be finalized.  Only time will tell of course. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Braindead

I’m computer illiterate as they come but auto upgrades must be a tough cookie.
I can’t see spending $16mil with any chance of it failing again, keep it simple
Paxsarah post “Simplified?” Really caught my attention. Thinking of use years and various windows

Wyndham needs it to be simplified for their benefit


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> Great point.
> 
> I’m not sure what term I prefer but I’ve never liked “VIP”.  it’s so pretentious.  Like my level of ownership elevates my value as a person... please.
> 
> And I believe the result has been the air of entitlement that permeates some owners at check in.  I hate using the VIP line simply because of the way some VIP owners act and treat the check in personnel. I hope they do away with the second check in line.  We can all wait for the next desk man or woman.
> 
> My VIP status is the result of some poor financial choices in years past.  I clearly overpaid prior to finding this blog site.
> 
> I tried to make chicken salad by finally going Platinum and PR.  But to me I’m not proud of my VIP status.  It speaks to my impetuous nature more than my value as a human.
> 
> Wes.


Well said Wes.


----------



## CO skier

HitchHiker71 said:


> Michael Brown approved 16MM in funds for a significant website overhaul several months ago from what have been told.


He must be new.

How many millions were spent on the Voyager overhaul over (10?) years?

Let's throw another $16MM at the problem.  That is sure to solve it. 

Fixed weeks converted to points.  2 bedroom lockoffs; how to upgrade?  Auto-upgrades without opening the door to abuses of the past.  Lots and lots of upgrade complications.

Upgrades more than 60 days in advance?; someone must have been visiting a Dispensary in Colorado on vacation.

The suspense is killing me.  (not really).


----------



## chapjim

CO skier said:


> <snip>
> Fixed weeks converted to points.  2 bedroom lockoffs; how to upgrade?  Auto-upgrades without opening the door to abuses of the past.  Lots and lots of upgrade complications.
> <snip>



All of these glitches for sure.

I'd be happier if the reservation list would appear right side-up.  Or, when you hit the Back button, you actually got the last page instead of the last page upside-down.  I don't need to see the pool at Skyline Tower or the panorama of St. Thomas any more.  I would rather that the page load more quickly.

If Wyndham wants a reservation site that works*, they should form a committee of owners, rather than sales people, to help with system requirements.  TUG's Wyndham Forum would be a good source.

* "Works" isn't the issue right now.  Yes, it must "work" but the real point is that it should be useful and friendly to owners.  Owners can help establish requirements.  Then, it up to the systems folks to make it work.  Right now it doesn't do what owners would like and it doesn't work either.  I'm not advocating policy changes here -- just a more useful and functional system.


----------



## Manzana

Richelle said:


> Found something.  Not much.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The sales hub comes out great on an iPad.  Much better than on my iMac.


----------



## HitchHiker71

wjappraise said:


> Great point.
> 
> I’m not sure what term I prefer but I’ve never liked “VIP”.  it’s so pretentious.  Like my level of ownership elevates my value as a person... please.
> 
> And I believe the result has been the air of entitlement that permeates some owners at check in.  I hate using the VIP line simply because of the way some VIP owners act and treat the check in personnel. I hope they do away with the second check in line.  We can all wait for the next desk man or woman.
> 
> My VIP status is the result of some poor financial choices in years past.  I clearly overpaid prior to finding this blog site.
> 
> I tried to make chicken salad by finally going Platinum and PR.  But to me I’m not proud of my VIP status.  It speaks to my impetuous nature more than my value as a human.
> 
> Wes.



We can quibble over what to call it until the cows come home.  Obviously they are changing it from VIP to Privileges at least from what we have seen so far.  The basic concept that those who spend more on any particular investment or activity enjoy certain benefits over those who choose not to is perfectly reasonable.  Much like airlines as but one example, those who fly the most enjoy the benefits and status that come with being a frequent flyer - and those benefits include priority boarding, upgrades, and priority (VIP) lines.  It therefore makes logical sense that those who spend the most on vacations and, at least in theory, vacation more frequently would enjoy the benefits and status that come with being a frequent vacationer.  Just because a few folks who are VIPs may seem to abuse the privilege, doesn't mean those who appreciate said benefits and status and do not abuse the privilege should suffer at least IMHO.  

It's easy especially here on TUG to say that everyone who purchased developer points made poor choices. But the reality is that resale would not exist were it not for developer purchases in the first place.  In fact, resale _only _exists because someone purchased those developer points first yes?


----------



## 55plus

HitchHiker71 said:


> It's easy especially here on TUG to say that everyone who purchased developer points made poor choices. But the reality is that resale would not exist were it not for developer purchases in the first place.  In fact, resale _only _exists because someone purchased those developer points first yes?


If you purchase Wyndham developer points and utilize the VIP benefit and perks, and keep it long enough it can pay for itself, and even more so if you pass it onto family. What is selling now for around $200K sold for around $30K in the early '90s. Our VIPP paid for itself many times over. If you are young and enjoy travel the expense might be worth it. How much will what sells for around $200K now sell for in another 25 years? Looking back, purchasing in the '90s was an investment because we continue to use it. Spending 5 months in Florida every winter at half points is the least expensive way to be a snowbird if you want to be on the ocean or gulf and stay in a nice updated clean and well kept place. And have points left over for more travel throughout the year.


----------



## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> If you purchase Wyndham developer points and utilize the VIP benefit and perks, and keep it long enough it can pay for itself, and even more so if you pass it onto family. What is selling now for around $200K sold for around $30K in the early '90s. Our VIPP paid for itself many times over. If you are young and enjoy travel the expense might be worth it. How much will what sells for around $200K now sell for in another 25 years? Looking back, purchasing in the '90s was an investment because we continue to use it. Spending 5 months in Florida every winter at half points is the least expensive way to be a snowbird if you want to be on the ocean or gulf and stay in a nice updated clean and well kept place. And have points left over for more travel throughout the year.



Agreed, I was able to obtain VIPG with two PIC contracts for only 27k total (temp VIPP for two years).  Certainly nowhere close to 200k.  We have three young adult children and I suspect at least one of them if not more will inherit our VIP membership when the time comes.  Timeshare is a long term investment - it becomes more valuable over the long haul as the "per vacation cost" gets better over time provided we use it.  We are looking forward to our golden years when we retire and can be snowbirds!


----------



## Richelle

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed, I was able to obtain VIPG with two PIC contracts for only 27k total (temp VIPP for two years).  Certainly nowhere close to 200k.  We have three young adult children and I suspect at least one of them if not more will inherit our VIP membership when the time comes.  Timeshare is a long term investment - it becomes more valuable over the long haul as the "per vacation cost" gets better over time provided we use it.  We are looking forward to our golden years when we retire and can be snowbirds!



The snowbird part is what I’m looking forward to the most. Just wish it wasn’t so far away.  You know my gold cost $35k w/PIC.  Assuming they don’t put to many restrictions on resale in the future, we can enjoy a nice snowbird lifestyle. I think it was $35k well spent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 55plus

Richelle said:


> The snowbird part is what I’m looking forward to the most. Just wish it wasn’t so far away.  You know my gold cost $35k w/PIC.  Assuming they don’t put to many restrictions on resale in the future, we can enjoy a nice snowbird lifestyle. I think it was $35k well spent.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know Wyndham likes changing the rules after the game starts, but if you have a written contract with Wyndham or Fairfield giving you VIP status I don't see how Wyndham can take away your VIPG benefits because your PIC was resell. The contract is a legal binding document.


----------



## Richelle

55plus said:


> I know Wyndham likes changing the rules after the game starts, but if you have a written contract with Wyndham or Fairfield giving you VIP status I don't see how Wyndham can take away your VIPG benefits because your PIC was resell. The contract is a legal binding document.



Sorry, I didn’t mean they would take away status. I was not referring to my PIC points. What I was referring to was resale points. Provided they don’t put on to many restrictions with how they can be used, it’s $35k well spent.  Right now, I can use them at any Club Wyndham resort and make discounted reservations with them that are eligible for upgrades. If they limit resale points to just the resorts they are deeded to, that might be troublesome for me. They would be shooting themselves in the foot by doing that, but they could. They could also take away the VIP benefits being extended to resale points and I cannot make discounted reservations with them.  I would not be happy with either, but the first might make things very difficult for me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> If you purchase Wyndham developer points and utilize the VIP benefit and perks, and keep it long enough it can pay for itself, and even more so if you pass it onto family. What is selling now for around $200K sold for around $30K in the early '90s. Our VIPP paid for itself many times over. If you are young and enjoy travel the expense might be worth it. How much will what sells for around $200K now sell for in another 25 years? Looking back, purchasing in the '90s was an investment because we continue to use it. Spending 5 months in Florida every winter at half points is the least expensive way to be a snowbird if you want to be on the ocean or gulf and stay in a nice updated clean and well kept place. And have points left over for more travel throughout the year.


Do you use all of your points or do you rent some?


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> Do you use all of your points or do you rent some?


We rent out enough points to cover our annual maintenance fees. Use to be more, but we are doing more traveling and stay longer. So many place and so little time.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> We rent out enough points to cover our annual maintenance fees. Use to be more, but we are doing more traveling and stay longer. So many place and so little time.


Nice, so your a VIP that rents to cover maintenance fees?


----------



## 55plus

Yes, for now. As we travel more and more and stay longer we'll do less renting. Add family and friends into the mix we'll need all our points. Family and friends stay for free with us. They even get their own units.


----------



## Braindead

dgalati said:


> Nice, so your a VIP that rents to cover maintenance fees?


I think your misinterpreting 55plus response.
He’s not renting at break even of the MFs on the points used for the individual rental reservation.
It’s more like some VIPs might rent for MFs X 2. Rent half of their points to cover 100% of their yearly MFs on all points owned
Someday you just might understand that for some owners it’s cheaper to own instead of renting. 55plus & others have told you their VIP account has paid for itself. The cost of their VIP account has paid for itself & now they are definitely staying cheaper than you renting & owning resales


----------



## ecwinch

Braindead said:


> I think your misinterpreting 55plus response.
> He’s not renting at break even of the MFs on the points used for the individual rental reservation.
> It’s more like some VIPs might rent for MFs X 2. Rent half of their points to cover 100% of their yearly MFs on all points owned
> Someday you just might understand that for some owners it’s cheaper to own instead of renting. 55plus & others have told you their VIP account has paid for itself. The cost of their VIP account has paid for itself & now they are definitely staying cheaper than you renting & owning resales



Exactly. This premise that there is an unlimited supply of VIP owners who are willing to rent out their VIP discount and throw free upgrades into the deal as a bonus is simplistic at best. I am sure there are some who are willing to do that from time to time. But to suggest that it is simple and easy to do is just misleading people.  It is an opportunistic strategy that works in some situations, but is somewhat like the claims made by Wyndham salespeople.  It ignores all the people out there who have to put in for vacation well in advance, book airfares, might need more than 1 unit, and cannot wait to see if a VIP scores the desired time with their VIP discount.


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> I think your misinterpreting 55plus response.
> He’s not renting at break even of the MFs on the points used for the individual rental reservation.
> It’s more like some VIPs might rent for MFs X 2. Rent half of their points to cover 100% of their yearly MFs on all points owned
> Someday you just might understand that for some owners it’s cheaper to own instead of renting. 55plus & others have told you their VIP account has paid for itself. The cost of their VIP account has paid for itself & now they are definitely staying cheaper than you renting & owning resales


Correct on all points. Sounds to me he makes his situation work and enjoys many vacations at a very low cost by renting to cover most if not all of his maintenance fees.


----------



## dgalati

ecwinch said:


> Exactly. This premise that there is an unlimited supply of VIP owners who are willing to rent out their VIP discount and throw free upgrades into the deal as a bonus is simplistic at best. I am sure there are some who are willing to do that from time to time. But to suggest that it is simple and easy to do is just misleading people.  It is an opportunistic strategy that works in some situations, but is somewhat like the claims made by Wyndham salespeople.  It ignores all the people out there who have to put in for vacation well in advance, book airfares, might need more than 1 unit, and cannot wait to see if a VIP scores the desired time with their VIP discount.


I agree, I own points and have found a way to make it work. My situation may not work for others. Sometimes it is cheaper to use my own points but on occasion it is cheaper to rent from a VIP booking within the 60 day window.
*This post is my personal opinion*


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Yes, for now. As we travel more and more and stay longer we'll do less renting. Add family and friends into the mix we'll need all our points. Family and friends stay for free with us. They even get their own units.


Any way you can make it work and enjoy while your still young and have good health.


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> Any way you can make it work and enjoy while your still young and have good health.


We enjoy traveling and it's nice to have a revenue stream that off sets our travel costs. We don't need the additional revenue, but like I stated, it's nice to have. We are retired so we can leave at a moment's notice. This means if I find something or a cancellation within 60 at a location that interests us I book it at half points and away we go. I enjoy the challenge to travel at half points. It's a challenge in the summer. You have to stay on top of it. Most openings happen at 15 days out from check-in. Those come from renters who dump their reservations that they didn't rent. Most don't or can't afford to lose the points so we take advantage of it. Does this answer your question?


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> We enjoy traveling and it's nice to have a revenue stream that off sets our travel costs. We don't need the additional revenue, but like I stated, it's nice to have. We are retired so we can leave at a moment's notice. This means if I find something or a cancellation within 60 at a location that interests us I book it at half points and away we go. I enjoy the challenge to travel at half points. It's a challenge in the summer. You have to stay on top of it. Most openings happen at 15 days out from check-in. Those come from renters who dump their reservations that they didn't rent. Most don't or can't afford to lose the points so we take advantage of it. Does this answer your question?


Yes I also travel at last minute. Not many can wait till last minute but It is a great way to travel and stay at very nice resorts for less then renting a cheap hotel room. The changes that Wyndham made it a little more difficult but I have adapted and made it work still. I have also found it very common to find availability 15 days out. Only thing better then 1/2 off is free. 
*This post is my personal opinion*


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> Yes I also travel at last minute. Not many can wait till last minute but It is a great way to travel and stay at very nice resorts for less then renting a cheap hotel room. The changes that Wyndham made it a little more difficult but I have adapted and made it work still. I have also found it very common to find availability 15 days out. Only thing better then 1/2 off is free.
> *This post is my personal opinion*


The policy change Wyndham made that I see as beneficial to owners is the 15 day drop dead timeframe for cancelling a reservation. This helped force inventory back into the system for others to take advantage of whether for travel or as a possible rental. The rental option would only benefit those who have access to discounted points.


----------



## am1

Nice to see they will be changing the website.  I only got a look at the last one "while under caution" and it was the pits. Never got a chance to exploit it as the one previously was.  No guarantee the next one will be any better.  

At the moment what happens when two platinum (possibly lower vip) accounts are combined?  Has anyone done that recently?

I was surprised they were never interested.


----------



## Braindead

dgalati said:


> Not many can wait till last minute


That’s why you’ve been giving horrible advice to OPs when you made blank statements on renting from a VIP is cheaper than paying MFs without ever asking the OPs about there travel-Ownership needs.

Even if OPs can travel at the last minute doesn’t mean they will find rentals available 

Your personal opinion-blank statements are FALSE for most OPs asking about becoming owners.


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> That’s why you’ve been giving horrible advice to OPs when you made blank statements on renting from a VIP is cheaper than paying MFs without ever asking the OPs about there travel-Ownership needs.
> 
> Even if OPs can travel at the last minute doesn’t mean they will find rentals available
> 
> Your personal opinion-blank statements are FALSE for most OPs asking about becoming owners.


Got it. Make it work for you like I have. Due your own due diligence.
*This post is my personal opinion*


----------



## Braindead

Dgalati
Our daughter & SIL have to put in for vacation more than 60 days in advance.
Your personal opinion-blank statements would be worthless & horrible if they & OPs in similar situations happen to take your advice.


----------



## Baby Jane

55plus said:


> Yes, for now. As we travel more and more and stay longer we'll do less renting. Add family and friends into the mix we'll need all our points. Family and friends stay for free with us. They even get their own units.


We do that too


----------



## Baby Jane

ecwinch said:


> Exactly. This premise that there is an unlimited supply of VIP owners who are willing to rent out their VIP discount and throw free upgrades into the deal as a bonus is simplistic at best. I am sure there are some who are willing to do that from time to time. But to suggest that it is simple and easy to do is just misleading people.  It is an opportunistic strategy that works in some situations, but is somewhat like the claims made by Wyndham salespeople.  It ignores all the people out there who have to put in for vacation well in advance, book airfares, might need more than 1 unit, and cannot wait to see if a VIP scores the desired time with their VIP discount.


Well we wont profit off family and friends so I just pass on what our cost for said points are. May be stupid but that's how we do it. I know they will all miss it when we start our retirement trips. Some people want the guarantee and are willing to pay for full points but usually only summer beach. I also like the peace of mind knowing I am only sending people that I know wont trash the room or steal stuff. When you rent to strangers its a crap shoot.


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> Dgalati
> Our daughter & SIL have to put in for vacation more than 60 days in advance.
> Your personal opinion-blank statements would be worthless & horrible if they & OPs in similar situations happen to take your advice.


BD,
You already covered this. Yes I agree with you. One size doesn't fit all. Everyone has to find their own way to make it work for them.
*This post is my personal opinion*


----------



## Braindead

dgalati said:


> *This post is my personal opinion*


We all post our personal opinions. We don’t need to see this phrase on every post
But when giving actual advice we all need to stick to the FACTS as much as possible


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> We all post our personal opinions. We don’t need to see this phrase on every post
> But when giving actual advice we all need to stick to the FACTS as much as possible


BD,
One more time yes I agree, you already covered this several times.   
*This post is my personal opinion *


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> The policy change Wyndham made that I see as beneficial to owners is the 15 day drop dead timeframe for cancelling a reservation. This helped force inventory back into the system for others to take advantage of whether for travel or as a possible rental. The rental option would only benefit those who have access to discounted points.


I thought this was policy before the change?


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> I thought this was policy before the change?


During Fairfield and early Wyndham you could cancel a reservation up to the day of check-in. An earlier Wyndham policy change, changed it to 15 days prior. That helped put inventory back in the system so others could take advantage of more last minute reservations.


----------



## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> We enjoy traveling and it's nice to have a revenue stream that off sets our travel costs. We don't need the additional revenue, but like I stated, it's nice to have. We are retired so we can leave at a moment's notice. This means if I find something or a cancellation within 60 at a location that interests us I book it at half points and away we go. I enjoy the challenge to travel at half points. It's a challenge in the summer. You have to stay on top of it. Most openings happen at 15 days out from check-in. Those come from renters who dump their reservations that they didn't rent. Most don't or can't afford to lose the points so we take advantage of it. Does this answer your question?



Do you handle your own rentals, or do you outsource the rental function to a third party?  Or do you mostly rent to people you know?  Curious as I'm considering taking this approach as well to help offset MFs.


----------



## 55plus

HitchHiker71 said:


> Do you handle your own rentals, or do you outsource the rental function to a third party?  Or do you mostly rent to people you know?  Curious as I'm considering taking this approach as well to help offset MFs.


I use Craigslist and do my own invoicing through PayPal. No commission to pay.


----------



## Jan M.

55plus said:


> During Fairfield and early Wyndham you could cancel a reservation up to the day of check-in. An earlier Wyndham policy change, changed it to 15 days prior. That helped put inventory back in the system so others could take advantage of more last minute reservations.



That was a change that I really appreciated. That change made staffing at the resorts much easier to manage which made more inventory available in addition to making cancelled reservations available to people who might still be able to use those stays. Before that change there were cancelled points and you had to deal with the restrictions on using them. For some people who go a lot that wasn't a big issue but for people who only took one or two vacations and/or a short trip a year with their points dealing with cancelled points was a headache. And you couldn't credit pool cancelled points either.


----------



## Baby Jane

Jan M. said:


> That was a change that I really appreciated. That change made staffing at the resorts much easier to manage which made more inventory available in addition to making cancelled reservations available to people who might still be able to use those stays. Before that change there were cancelled points and you had to deal with the restrictions on using them. For some people who go a lot that wasn't a big issue but for people who only took one or two vacations and/or a short trip a year with their points dealing with cancelled points was a headache. And you couldn't credit pool cancelled points either.


I have found less inventory just out of the 15 day window and more inside it since they have the insurance cancel until day of.


----------



## dgalati

[


ecwinch said:


> Exactly. This premise that there is an unlimited supply of VIP owners who are willing to rent out their VIP discount and throw free upgrades into the deal as a bonus is simplistic at best. I am sure there are some who are willing to do that from time to time. But to suggest that it is simple and easy to do is just misleading people.  It is an opportunistic strategy that works in some situations, but is somewhat like the claims made by Wyndham salespeople.  It ignores all the people out there who have to put in for vacation well in advance, book airfares, might need more than 1 unit, and cannot wait to see if a VIP scores the desired time with their VIP discount.



I have made it work for me. Many VIP owners are not traveling and are just trying to pay maintenance fees to make ends meet. This may not be the case for your or other tuggers but it is a reality for many. I ask All VIP members that are posting negative comments about my posts how many have actually tried to rent points from another VIP? I have and can tell you it's ussually less then using my points. Like my opinion or not it works for me. Make it work for you.
*This post is my personal opinion*


----------



## jwalk03

I am not a VIP owner but I have rented from several VIP owners on TUG for much less than what it would cost for me to buy points!  Plus just renting gives me flexibility to rent in other systems as well.

In the last 4 years I have rented lots of Wyndhams, a couple Marriott’s, a Bluegreen, a Holiday Inn Vacation Club, a Westgate, and an independent.  Not owning and just renting gives me maximum flexibility to go where I want without any ownership commitments!  I love it.


----------



## wjappraise

dgalati said:


> [
> I have made it work for me. Many VIP owners are not traveling and are just trying to pay maintenance fees to make ends meet. This not be the case for your or other tuggers but is a reality for many. I ask All VIP members that are posting negative comments about my posts how many have actually tried to rent points from another VIP? I have and can tell you it's ussually less then using my points. Like my opinion or not it works for me. Make it work for you.
> *This post is my personal opinion*



Hey Dgalati.  

I think we are pretty much on the same page.  We can all see the merit in your assertion to save money by not becoming VIP.  I truly believe no one (other than a Wyndham sales person) would advocate becoming a VIP from scratch at this point in time. 

However, for those of us who are already VIP, we have no choice but to look on the bright side and find value in our ill advised purchases.  Furthermore, some VIP owners compiled their purchases under a prior set of rules/standards that no longer exist. There are some nice perks that, while not worth the purchase price, do enhance our uses.   For those VIP owners who espouse “status” of being VIP, that’s just nonsense. 

So, for the most part, those of us who are VIP don’t mind hearing that we’ve wasted money, because it’s true. But we may also point out some of the advantages we have in our regrettable expenditures.  That doesn’t mean we would do it all over again, but we don’t have a mulligan to play.  My guess is that some VIP owners interpret some of your posts as being punitive or dismissive and they push back.  When you respond “but at least you have your VIP status” it just adds fuel to the fire.  

We see your point about renting and we agree. Can’t you see our point, that we are stuck with our VIP purchase and are simply choosing to focus on the positive aspects of that purchase(s)?   

I fear that in the volleying of sarcastic postings (I am as guilty of this as anyone) sometimes a new member or potential purchaser may get the wrong message. No one should buy developer points starting from scratch (in my opinion). However someone who already owns 962,000 developer points probably is best served by purchasing at least 39,000 more developer points.  

Can you see what I’m saying?  

Wes.


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> Hey Dgalati.
> 
> I think we are pretty much on the same page.  We can all see the merit in your assertion to save money by not becoming VIP.  I truly believe no one (other than a Wyndham sales person) would advocate becoming a VIP from scratch at this point in time.
> 
> However, for those of us who are already VIP, we have no choice but to look on the bright side and find value in our ill advised purchases.  Furthermore, some VIP owners compiled their purchases under a prior set of rules/standards that no longer exist. There are some nice perks that, while not worth the purchase price, do enhance our uses.   For those VIP owners who espouse “status” of being VIP, that’s just nonsense.
> 
> So, for the most part, those of us who are VIP don’t mind hearing that we’ve wasted money, because it’s true. But we may also point out some of the advantages we have in our regrettable expenditures.  That doesn’t mean we would do it all over again, but we don’t have a mulligan to play.  My guess is that some VIP owners interpret some of your posts as being punitive or dismissive and they push back.  When you respond “but at least you have your VIP status” it just adds fuel to the fire.
> 
> We see your point about renting and we agree. Can’t you see our point, that we are stuck with our VIP purchase and are simply choosing to focus on the positive aspects of that purchase(s)?
> 
> I fear that in the volleying of sarcastic postings (I am as guilty of this as anyone) sometimes a new member or potential purchaser may get the wrong message. No one should buy developer points starting from scratch (in my opinion). However someone who already owns 962,000 developer points probably is best served by purchasing at least 39,000 more developer points.
> 
> Can you see what I’m saying?
> 
> Wes.


Thanks Wes for your point of view. I Agree, Nothing wrong with making your ownership work any way you bought in. I apologize if anyone was offended by my posts. My intent was to inform others of what worked for me.


----------



## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> [
> 
> 
> I have made it work for me. Many VIP owners are not traveling and are just trying to pay maintenance fees to make ends meet. This may not be the case for your or other tuggers but it is a reality for many. I ask All VIP members that are posting negative comments about my posts how many have actually tried to rent points from another VIP? I have and can tell you it's ussually less then using my points. Like my opinion or not it works for me. Make it work for you.
> *This post is my personal opinion*



I’m confused.  If you are VIP and have the same access to discount windows and upgrades as other VIPs, then how can it be less expensive to rent from other VIPs?  Granted if you are only VIPS and renting from a VIPP I can kinda see your point, but if you are also paying MFs on the points you own plus adding the cost of renting from other VIPs, I don’t see how the math adds up.  Please provide an actual real mathematical example.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jan M.

55plus said:


> What is selling now for around $200K sold for around $30K in the early '90s.





wjappraise said:


> I truly believe no one (other than a Wyndham sales person) would advocate becoming a VIP from scratch at this point in time.



I have to point out that $30k doesn't sound like much now but it was 30 years ago. It seems safe to say that in another 30 years people will be saying the same thing about $200k.

I was just asking my husband if he remembered when we went to our first presentation back in 1999 or 2000. We were offered several point packages but didn't buy at that time. One of those point packages was a large one that would make us gold VIP with a price of over $40k. At the time we couldn't imagine spending that much nor ever being able to use that many points. We didn't buy at that time but obviously we eventually spent that much and more and used every single point. If we had more foresight and dreamed bigger as Wyndham is now saying we would have spent a great deal less. I've used that phrase a number of times here on TUG over the years since I became a member and wonder if someone at Wyndham saw and remembered it. Anyhow at time we also wouldn't have risked taking a chance on resale but now thanks to the internet and TUG potential owners have options we didn't have at that time and can educate themselves about buying timeshares. And from reading other peoples posts I believe they are more likely to realize that they too will also find themselves taking more vacations before they know it.

While some owners have regrets about how much they spent or what/where they bought not all owners, developer or resale, have regrets. It is a similar discussion to the one about owning a second home vs owning timeshares.

I'm with HitchHiker71 in that I appreciate fully explained examples with the costs included when possible. Shaming or slamming others for financial choices they can't or wouldn't undo isn't helpful in giving anyone information and data that would actually be useful to them. As Braindead pointed out advising someone without knowing their financial circumstances or their vacation needs isn't helpful and can send a potential owner in a direction that isn't going to be good for them.

So here is a piece of advise that everyone should keep in mind when they post their opinions on what other people should or shouldn't do. _Explain what you do/have, why it works for you and how it makes financial sense for your particular circumstances. That allows people to draw parallels to their own situation. Hopefully they will get insight from more than one person that will help them make a decision that works for them based on the best information we can all give them._


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> I’m confused.  If you are VIP and have the same access to discount windows and upgrades as other VIPs, then how can it be less expensive to rent from other VIPs?  Granted if you are only VIPS and renting from a VIPP I can kinda see your point, but if you are also paying MFs on the points you own plus adding the cost of renting from other VIPs, I don’t see how the math adds up.  Please provide an actual real mathematical example.
> 
> Not a VIP
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chapjim

HitchHiker71 said:


> I’m confused.  If you are VIP and have the same access to discount windows and upgrades as other VIPs, then how can it be less expensive to rent from other VIPs?  Granted if you are only VIPS and renting from a VIPP I can kinda see your point, but if you are also paying MFs on the points you own plus adding the cost of renting from other VIPs, I don’t see how the math adds up.  Please provide an actual real mathematical example.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Could be a timing thing.  Maybe the other VIP booked a reservation on spec before I decided I wanted to go to that place at that time.

There are some differences in cost structures among VIPPs.  My big contracts are at Bonnet Creek and Ocean Walk, not low maintenance fee resorts.  I like them because I do a lot of ARP into both places, which for me pays off.  Someone who owns at National Harbor, Canterbury, or PCB could reserve for less than I can.


----------



## HitchHiker71

chapjim said:


> Could be a timing thing.  Maybe the other VIP booked a reservation on spec before I decided I wanted to go to that place at that time.
> 
> There are some differences in cost structures among VIPPs.  My big contracts are at Bonnet Creek and Ocean Walk, not low maintenance fee resorts.  I like them because I do a lot of ARP into both places, which for me pays off.  Someone who owns at National Harbor, Canterbury, or PCB could reserve for less than I can.



Jim, thanks for your reply.  I agree if it's a matter of limited availability then it makes sense, but that's not what dgalati is saying.  If I'm reading his post above accurately, he's saying he's NOT a VIP.  So his argument is essentially that it's cheaper for him to rent from another VIP, then to use his own points.  But he's paying MFs on his own points no matter what, plus the cost outlay for the rental from the VIP.  Most VIPs that I know don't rent based upon points booked within a discount window any longer - because cancel/rebook no longer exists - most VIPs rent points out between $6-9/1000 points depending on the resort and season.  Most folks who rent plan vacations beyond the discount window anyways, so there's no difference between a resale owner, like dgalati, vs a developer account for points bookings as a result.  This is why I'm asking for an actual mathematical example, so we can all understand the logical argument based on real numbers and not words.


----------



## jjking42

I got vip via resale a long time ago however those were the days that 28k deposit in RCI still worked. I thought no way am I ever going to need 308k points so I sold 154k and lost VIP.

Since that time Wyndham has built new resorts that require 200k to 400k points for a week. Now I wish I had those points back 

I never once used VIP benefits. I did find it annoying that I could never find the week I wanted  using my points but could rent it from Super renters for less than my MF. 

I had no idea that Wyndham was selling these big packages and enticing people to get into the rental business.

I find since they have audited some accounts and made other changes to cut back the book- cancel-rebook  loop hole it has become easier to find inventory with my points. 

It’s unfortunate that those changes have had a financial impact on some VIP owners. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71

jjking42 said:


> I got vip via resale a long time ago however those were the days that 28k deposit in RCI still worked. I thought no way am I ever going to need 308k points so I sold 154k and lost VIP.
> 
> Since that time Wyndham has built new resorts that require 200k to 400k points for a week. Now I wish I had those points back
> 
> I never once used VIP benefits. I did find it annoying that I could never find the week I wanted  using my points but could rent it from Super renters for less than my MF.
> 
> I had no idea that Wyndham was selling these big packages and enticing people to get into the rental business.
> 
> I find since they have audited some accounts and made other changes to cut back the book- cancel-rebook  loop hole it has become easier to find inventory with my points.
> 
> It’s unfortunate that those changes have had a financial impact on some VIP owners.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I use our VIP benefits for almost every transaction for personal use.  Particularly the discount window and the automatic upgrades.  The megarenters were either removed from the system a few years ago, or their activities were curtailed or limited via the changes to the VIP programs and the booking systems directly - such as the elimination of the cancel/rebook loophole.  What you commented as unfortunate I claim as fortunate - as someone who only rents occasionally when I have extra points available - as opposed to those who essentially have created a commercial renting business for all intents and purposes - these changes have positively impacted booking availability for us VIP owners who purchased enough to obtain VIP primarily for personal use.  

I suspect that, in the past, sales has "sold" VIP catered toward renters and actually encouraged people to get into the rental business.  Recently I've heard from several sales reps that they are no longer permitted to speak in terms of obtaining VIP points for rental income or for any aspect of recovering MFs.  I suspect that the next iteration of VIP, called Wyndham Privileges - will continue to push benefits geared toward personal usage and away from any commercial usage - further discouraging direct owner rentals and further encouraging actual use of program benefits for personal vacations.  Wyndham already has a rental program offering for owners, however it's not very competitive when compared to direct owner rentals.  I suspect programs like this will undergo changes to become more attractive to owners moving forward - to further discourage direct owner rentals.  I also expect either increased duration discount windows and/or upgrade windows, or perhaps even flat discounts per tier with no windows, to further enhance the value proposition for VIP ownership and developer points purchases, along with limitations placed upon resale purchases over time (like Disney and HGVC have done) - to close the large gap between developer vs resale.


----------



## ecwinch

Since we are speculating on the future, I want to claim dibs on the day when VIP benefits only apply for owner usage. So if you put a guest certificate on a upgraded/discounted room - you get charged the full point value.


----------



## wjappraise

ecwinch said:


> Since we are speculating on the future, I want to claim dibs on the day when VIP benefits only apply for owner usage. So if you put a guest certificate on a upgraded/discounted room - you get charged the full point value.



Don’t give them ideas!  Delete this post!  

Wes.


----------



## dgalati

ecwinch said:


> Since we are speculating on the future, I want to claim dibs on the day when VIP benefits only apply for owner usage. So if you put a guest certificate on a upgraded/discounted room - you get charged the full point value.


Wyndham has this in their cross hairs now thanks to you. lol


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> Jim, thanks for your reply.  I agree if it's a matter of limited availability then it makes sense, but that's not what dgalati is saying.  If I'm reading his post above accurately, he's saying he's NOT a VIP.  So his argument is essentially that it's cheaper for him to rent from another VIP, then to use his own points.  But he's paying MFs on his own points no matter what, plus the cost outlay for the rental from the VIP.  Most VIPs that I know don't rent based upon points booked within a discount window any longer - because cancel/rebook no longer exists - most VIPs rent points out between $6-9/1000 points depending on the resort and season.  Most folks who rent plan vacations beyond the discount window anyways, so there's no difference between a resale owner, like dgalati, vs a developer account for points bookings as a result.  This is why I'm asking for an actual mathematical example, so we can all understand the logical argument based on real numbers and not words.



Examples of My rentals from a VIP. I am a non VIP owner.
Clearwater 4th of July 2 years back. Would of cost me 200,000 points for a 1 bedroom if a room was available to me (which it was not). In the 60 day discount window booked a 1 bedroom presidential reserve through a VIP for $600. To book this with 200,000 of my own points at a monthly maintenance cost of $68 or $820 yearly on 154,000 points or about $1060 (.0053 cents x 200,000 points) yearly maintenance on 200,000 points at Grand Desert.
Another example booked within 60 day discount window at Midtown 45, Thurs - Sunday 3 nights 1 bedroom deluxe. $675 cost from VIP. This room would have been 234,000 points , my cost on maintenace fees for these points is .0053 x 234,000 = $1240

I have a few others but they are comparable to the above examples. What is really nice is when I need a room and no availability was available to me but a VIP had room available to them.


----------



## 55plus

Renting to others was a sales weasel lie - say anything to make a sale, even lie, lie and they lie there way into your pockets, wallets and bank accounts. In the Wyndham directory it states not for commercial use, so Wyndham in general never approved it, but didn't prevent of it. The last policy change took care of mega renters, which allowed owner to have more availability at demand locations and during demand timeframes. Prior to the policy change you needed APR for Daytona Bike Week, Biketoberfest, Daytona 500. Not any more thanks to the policy change. Last year I was able to book Bikeweek and the 500 at half points, but you have to work the website and stay on top of it.


----------



## ecwinch

55plus said:


> Renting to others was a sales weasel lie - say anything to make a sale, even lie, lie and they lie there way into your pockets, wallets and bank accounts. In the Wyndham directory it states not for commercial use, so Wyndham in general never approved it, but didn't prevent of it. The last policy change took care of mega renters, which allowed owner to have more availability at demand locations and during demand timeframes. Prior to the policy change you needed APR for Daytona Bike Week, Biketoberfest, Daytona 500. Not any more thanks to the policy change. Last year I was able to book Bikeweek and the 500 at half points, but you have to work the website and stay on top of it.



I even got Mardi Gras for my daughter.... but wont be able to do that next year after Wyndham reads my previous post.... lol


----------



## 55plus

ecwinch said:


> I even got Mardi Gras for my daughter.... but wont be able to do that next year after Wyndham reads my previous post.... lol


So many demand locations opened up after the demise of the mega renters. The Wyndham directory already states VIP benefits only apply VIP members, so with several lines of code added Wyndham could stop guests from receiving the discounts and upgrades. Plan for it to be implemented in the future, and I'm okay with that.


----------



## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> Examples of My rentals from a VIP. I am a non VIP owner.
> Clearwater 4th of July 2 years back. Would of cost me 200,000 points for a 1 bedroom if it was room was available to me (which it was not). In the 60 discount window booked a 1 bedroom presidential reserve through a VIP for $600. To book this with 200,000 of my own points at a monthly maintenance cost of $68 or $820 yearly on 154,000 points or about $1060 (.0053 cents x 200,000 points) yearly maintenance on 200,000 points at Grand Desert.
> Another example booked within 60 day discount window at Midtown 45, Thurs - Sunday 3 nights 1 bedroom deluxe. $675 cost from VIP. This room would have been 234,000 points , my cost on maintenace fees for these points is .0053 x 234,000 = $1240
> 
> I have a few others but they are comparable to the above examples. What is really nice is when I need a room and no availability was available to me but a VIP had room available to them.



Several things don't add up here to me.  One, within 10 months, points are points.  This is pretty much a universal truth here on TUG.  The _only _time points aren't points is within the 10-13 month ARP windows.  Given you are saying these bookings occurred within the 60 day discount booking window - this means points are points.  Therefore, there should never be a scenario when something is _not _available for you, that _is_ available to a VIP within 10 months - unless you don't have the points available to make the booking itself.  Second, let's look at this from a net outlay standpoint based upon your own numbers.  

Let's assume you have you have the 434,000 annual points to support both bookings directly.  Here's your net annualized outlay in actual dollars as I see it:

Renting plus ownership costs:

$600.00 VIP rental
$675.00 VIP rental
$2300.20 annual MFs (0.0053 cents x 434,000 points)
_______
$3575.20 dollars spent

Ownership costs:

$2300.20 annual MFs (0.0053 cents x 434,000 points)

I understand that it might be more _efficient _in so far as comparing the discounted points costs the a VIP _could _pass along to a renter, but this is the exception not the rule IME since most people who rent from VIPs do so outside of the discount window.  The fact is that you're still paying your annual MFs for your points, _plus _the costs of rentals out of pocket.  What are you actually using your own points for?  To me, you are arguing funny money with respect to the _efficiency _aspects, since the bottom line is you have sunk costs for your own MFs on top of whatever rental costs you choose to absorb.


----------



## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> The _only _time points aren't points is within the 10-13 month ARP windows. Given you are saying these bookings occurred within the 60 day discount booking window - this means points are points.



He said it was Presidential Reserve, where points aren’t points until inside 30 days.


----------



## HitchHiker71

paxsarah said:


> He said it was Presidential Reserve, where points aren’t points until inside 30 days.



Specific to non-VIP vs VIP?  I can book PR units at any point within 10 months, same within the 60 day discount window.  That said, I'm not familiar with the PR program itself.


----------



## wjappraise

HitchHiker71 said:


> Specific to non-VIP vs VIP?  I can book PR units at any point within 10 months, same within the 60 day discount window.  That said, I'm not familiar with the PR program itself.



You can book "Presidential" units within 10 months, not "Presidential Reserve" units.  Several resorts that have true PR units hold 75% of the PR units for Presidential Reserve owners only to use until 30 days prior the the reservations date, at which point they are opened up to all members.  Unless you are a Presidential Reserve owner, the PR inventory being held will not even show as available - assuming, of course, that the website is operating correctly, which we know to be a crap shoot.  

Wes


----------



## wjappraise

dgalati said:


> Thanks Wes for your point of view. I Agree, Nothing wrong with making your ownership work any way you bought in. I apologize if anyone was offended by my posts. My intent was to inform others of what worked for me.



Thanks, Dominic.

I trust your intent, and in reality I agree with you in most of your posts.  Specifically, there is great value in NEVER buying a timeshare and always renting from an existing owner.  And you are correct that costs are better in the far majority of cases.  Just look at RedWeek.com to see a black-and-white proof of what Dominic is stating.  The cost for a non-VIP owner to reserve a two bedroom deluxe unit at Bonnet Creek over the summertime is 224,000 points.  Assuming a cost of $6.50 per thousand points, the cost would be $1456, plus whatever reservation transaction cost and housekeeping costs are added to a non-VIP owner.  Of the FORTY 2 bedroom units of 7 days at Bonnet Creek listed for sale in the next two months (end of July), only NINE of them are listed for over $1456.  That means THIRTY ONE units are listed for sale at a cheaper cost than a non-VIP can book the room. 

That is staggering. . .

Then, to add insult to injury, some of us list that same room here for $800, and have TUG members refuse to pay that much, and they want it for less than $100 a night. . . and some TUG members will accommodate that ridiculous price point.  Dominic is on to something.  

Wes


----------



## dgalati

wjappraise said:


> Thanks, Dominic.
> 
> I trust your intent, and in reality I agree with you in most of your posts.  Specifically, there is great value in NEVER buying a timeshare and always renting from an existing owner.  And you are correct that costs are better in the far majority of cases.  Just look at RedWeek.com to see a black-and-white proof of what Dominic is stating.  The cost for a non-VIP owner to reserve a two bedroom deluxe unit at Bonnet Creek over the summertime is 224,000 points.  Assuming a cost of $6.50 per thousand points, the cost would be $1456, plus whatever reservation transaction cost and housekeeping costs are added to a non-VIP owner.  Of the FORTY 2 bedroom units of 7 days at Bonnet Creek listed for sale in the next two months (end of July), only NINE of them are listed for over $1456.  That means THIRTY ONE units are listed for sale at a cheaper cost than a non-VIP can book the room.
> 
> That is staggering. . .
> 
> Then, to add insult to injury, some of us list that same room here for $800, and have TUG members refuse to pay that much, and they want it for less than $100 a night. . . and some TUG members will accommodate that ridiculous price point.  Dominic is on to something.
> 
> Wes


I sold all my deeds then bought back in to have more control over reserving a room. It also helps me to know what is a good value in renting if have the visibility to know actual points it takes to rent a room. I travel more then I have points available. I will use all my points every year (Only 322,00 as of now). It is just a better value for me to rent when I can for less. This is not always possible but within the 60 day discount I have been able to. The VIP members I deal with have received many referrals for the deals they have passed along to me. If it is wiser to use my points I will.


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> Several things don't add up here to me.  One, within 10 months, points are points.  This is pretty much a universal truth here on TUG.  The _only _time points aren't points is within the 10-13 month ARP windows.  Given you are saying these bookings occurred within the 60 day discount booking window - this means points are points.  Therefore, there should never be a scenario when something is _not _available for you, that _is_ available to a VIP within 10 months - unless you don't have the points available to make the booking itself.  Second, let's look at this from a net outlay standpoint based upon your own numbers.
> 
> Let's assume you have you have the 434,000 annual points to support both bookings directly.  Here's your net annualized outlay in actual dollars as I see it:
> 
> Renting plus ownership costs:
> 
> $600.00 VIP rental
> $675.00 VIP rental
> $2300.20 annual MFs (0.0053 cents x 434,000 points)
> _______
> $3575.20 dollars spent
> 
> Ownership costs:
> 
> $2300.20 annual MFs (0.0053 cents x 434,000 points)
> 
> I understand that it might be more _efficient _in so far as comparing the discounted points costs the a VIP _could _pass along to a renter, but this is the exception not the rule IME since most people who rent from VIPs do so outside of the discount window.  The fact is that you're still paying your annual MFs for your points, _plus _the costs of rentals out of pocket.  What are you actually using your own points for?  To me, you are arguing funny money with respect to the _efficiency _aspects, since the bottom line is you have sunk costs for your own MFs on top of whatever rental costs you choose to absorb.



I only have 322,000 Points which I will use all of and usually travel more then the points I have available allows me.. I only rent if it is cheaper then the 5.30 per 1000 of maintenance cost. Or if a PR VIP can reserve when its not available to me. The simple math is instead of buying more points and paying 5.30 per 1000 I can rent for close to 1/2. May not work or be possible always to rent but if it is available I will rent over using my points. As per example rented 434,000 points for almost half of what it would of cost to own and pay maintenance fees on the points owned. Also I always travel last minute and this may not work if you need to book 10-13 months in advance.


----------



## erniecrews

wjappraise said:


> You can book "Presidential" units within 10 months, not "Presidential Reserve" units.  Several resorts that have true PR units hold 75% of the PR units for Presidential Reserve owners only to use until 30 days prior the the reservations date, at which point they are opened up to all members.  Unless you are a Presidential Reserve owner, the PR inventory being held will not even show as available - assuming, of course, that the website is operating correctly, which we know to be a crap shoot.
> 
> Wes


Where do you think the other 25% goes?


----------



## Braindead

ecwinch said:


> Since we are speculating on the future, I want to claim dibs on the day when VIP benefits only apply for owner usage. So if you put a guest certificate on a upgraded/discounted room - you get charged the full point value.


Sorry Eric, I had that idea in 2017


----------



## Braindead

Even 2016


----------



## wjappraise

erniecrews said:


> Where do you think the other 25% goes?



It’s available at ten months.  Or 13 months for owners at that resort.


----------



## ecwinch

Braindead said:


> View attachment 11951 View attachment 11952
> Sorry Eric, I had that idea in 2017



Darn..... well that means everyone can blame you when it comes to pass.


----------



## Jan M.

wjappraise said:


> Thanks, Dominic.
> 
> I trust your intent, and in reality I agree with you in most of your posts.  Specifically, there is great value in NEVER buying a timeshare and always renting from an existing owner.  And you are correct that costs are better in the far majority of cases.  Just look at RedWeek.com to see a black-and-white proof of what Dominic is stating.  The cost for a non-VIP owner to reserve a two bedroom deluxe unit at Bonnet Creek over the summertime is 224,000 points.  Assuming a cost of $6.50 per thousand points, the cost would be $1456, plus whatever reservation transaction cost and housekeeping costs are added to a non-VIP owner.  Of the FORTY 2 bedroom units of 7 days at Bonnet Creek listed for sale in the next two months (end of July), only NINE of them are listed for over $1456.  That means THIRTY ONE units are listed for sale at a cheaper cost than a non-VIP can book the room.
> 
> That is staggering. . .
> 
> Then, to add insult to injury, some of us list that same room here for $800, and have TUG members refuse to pay that much, and they want it for less than $100 a night. . . and some TUG members will accommodate that ridiculous price point.  Dominic is on to something.
> 
> Wes



Since Eric is laying claims to things he's said I will add my own claim. I predicted that when the big bad megarenters were gone that more owners would jump in to fill the void. Which has absolutely come to pass. From what I see on a variety of different sites the amount of renting has grown phenomenally in the absence of the few megarenters who are "no longer owners". Much, much more than I would ever have guessed. I confess to finding myself stunned at what Wes posted. Wes pointed out Redweek has 40 listings for the end of July in a two bedroom unit. Just think about how many other sites we know of that people rent through like Extra Holidays, Craigslist, eBay, Facebook, TUG, etc.

The other part of my prediction was that we would see many of these new to renting owners making the rookie mistake of pricing their rentals far too low. Which of course is normal. But I expected after an initial learning curve that would change. It doesn't look like it has. Either that or the number of owners getting into renting is continuing to grow at an alarming rate. I also predicted that Wyndham wouldn't be happy with an influx in the far too cheap rental market that undercut Extra Holidays prices. Conventional wisdom says you don't poke the bear. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Wyndham is going to take measures to protect Extra Holdiays. They've invested a lot of time and money in developing, promoting and running it in addition to the revenue it brings them.



dgalati said:


> Clearwater 4th of July 2 years back. Would of cost me 200,000 points for a 1 bedroom if a room was available to me (which it was not). In the 60 day discount window booked a 1 bedroom presidential reserve through a VIP for $600. To book this with 200,000 of my own points at a monthly maintenance cost of $68 or $820 yearly on 154,000 points or about $1060 (.0053 cents x 200,000 points) yearly maintenance on 200,000 points at Grand Desert.
> Another example booked within 60 day discount window at Midtown 45, Thurs - Sunday 3 nights 1 bedroom deluxe. $675 cost from VIP. This room would have been 234,000 points , my cost on maintenace fees for these points is .0053 x 234,000 = $1240



From what Dominic posted it appears he found owners or point managers who basically just covered the maintenance fees on the points needed for those rentals. I'm not seeing much profit, if any at all, in those prices even for platinum VIP owners. I'm curious if this is still happening as much anymore. I thought with the change to the 15 day cancellation window and the addition of the points protection program there would be fewer owners renting at break even or not much above it prices.


----------



## dgalati

Jan M. said:


> Since Eric is laying claims to things he's said I will add my own claim. I predicted that when the big bad megarenters were gone that more owners would jump in to fill the void. Which has absolutely come to pass. From what I see on a variety of different sites the amount of renting has grown phenomenally in the absence of the few megarenters who are "no longer owners". Much, much more than I would ever have guessed. I confess to finding myself stunned at what Wes posted. Wes pointed out Redweek has 40 listings for the end of July in a two bedroom unit. Just think about how many other sites we know of that people rent through like Extra Holidays, Craigslist, eBay, Facebook, TUG, etc.
> 
> The other part of my prediction was that we would see many of these new to renting owners making the rookie mistake of pricing their rentals far too low. Which of course is normal. But I expected after an initial learning curve that would change. It doesn't look like it has. Either that or the number of owners getting into renting is continuing to grow at an alarming rate. I also predicted that Wyndham wouldn't be happy with an influx in the far too cheap rental market that undercut Extra Holidays prices. Conventional wisdom says you don't poke the bear. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Wyndham is going to take measures to protect Extra Holdiays. They've invested a lot of time and money in developing, promoting and running it in addition to the revenue it brings them.
> 
> 
> 
> From what Dominic posted it appears he found owners or point managers who basically just covered the maintenance fees on the points needed for those rentals. I'm not seeing much profit, if any at all, in those prices even for platinum VIP owners. I'm curious if this is still happening as much anymore. I thought with the change to the 15 day cancellation window and the addition of the points protection program there would be fewer owners renting at break even or not much above it prices.



Reality is some VIP owners are not traveling or using their points because of health issues or changes in their life that prevent them to do so. Most of owners that can not travel and use their points are just happy to cover maintenance fees because they just cant afford to pay them. Consider a non VIP's disadvantage to renting compared to a VIP in the 60 discount window. For a Non VIP to rent against a VIP he would have to rent for 1/2 his cost if VIP was just covering his costs. You would be surprised how many owners still don't know about Ovations and their options to get out from under the financial burden of the maintenance fees.


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> Reality is some VIP owners are not traveling or using their points because of health issues or changes in their life that prevent them to do so. Most of owners that can not travel and use their points are just happy to cover maintenance fees because they just cant afford to pay them. Consider a non VIP's disadvantage to renting compared to a VIP in the 60 discount window. For a Non VIP to rent against a VIP he would have to rent for 1/2 his cost if VIP was just covering his costs. You would be surprised how many owners still don't know about Ovations and their options to get out from under the financial burden of the maintenance fees.


In reality a VIP PLATINUM owner can rent for 1/4 cost of non VIP owners to break even. Factor in half points advantage and at half points, points double so a VIP PLATINUM owner ends up with twice the points. Factoring that, they end up paying half the cost of maintenance fees when they double their points. The profit margins is even greater than it looks on the surface. Now, if a VIP PLATINUM owner rents for what a non VIP owner rents to just cover their costs, the VIP PLATINUM owner realizes a 100% profit.


----------



## dgalati

This is great info that I was not aware of. Helps me understand how some are able to discount rentals. Either way its cheaper then paying maintenance fees if points are not going to be used.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> In reality a VIP PLATINUM owner can rent for 1/4 cost of non VIP owners to break even



That would be a math Fail.  1/4 cost claim is either a typo or just wrong.  With a 50% point discount and the guest fee and the cost of listing on Redweek and PayPal fee, the break even point is more like 60-65% not 25%.  

In the old cancel, rebook and upgrade days - yes.  Now - no.   

Wes


----------



## 55plus

wjappraise said:


> That would be a math Fail.  1/4 cost claim is either a typo or just wrong.  With a 50% point discount and the guest fee and the cost of listing on Redweek and PayPal fee, the break even point is more like 60-65% not 25%.
> In the old cancel, rebook and upgrade days - yes.  Now - no.
> 
> Wes


Remove the variables you added and I stand by my math. Double the points and cut maintenance fees in half (because the points double) and forget the free guest certificates there is 1/4 difference. Do the math. Example for same rental: non VIP  100000 points x $6 per 1000 = $600;  VIP PLATINUM (within 60 day window) 50000 points x $3 per 1000 = $150.


----------



## CO skier

ecwinch said:


> Since we are speculating on the future, I want to claim dibs on the day when VIP benefits only apply for owner usage. So if you put a guest certificate on a upgraded/discounted room - you get charged the full point value.


That is an interesting point.  

When a VIP discounted reservation is used for a rental, Wyndham is essentially subsidizing competitors to Wyndham's Extra Holidays rental arm and non-VIPs who are trying to rent full points reservations.


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> This is great info that I was not aware of. Helps me understand how some are able to discount rentals. Either way its cheaper then paying maintenance fees if points are not going to be used.


Points are like currency, you have to factor either cost of points to be used or money. Or did I misunderstand the question?


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> Remove the variables you added and I stand by my math. Double the points and cut maintenance fees in half (because the points double) and forget the free guest certificates there is 1/4 difference. Do the math. Example for same rental: non VIP  100000 points x $6 per 1000 = $600;  VIP PLATINUM (within 60 day window) 50000 points x $3 per 1000 = $150.



Sorry.  I’m a math major.  You’re way off!  

Your error is that you have cut the point cost by 50% and then cut the maintenance fee by 50%. This maintenance fee does NOT change.  

I’m sorry to be harsh, but your math fail is misleading to others. So it needs to be exposed.  

Wes.


----------



## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> Remove the variables you added and I stand by my math. Double the points and cut maintenance fees in half (because the points double) and forget the free guest certificates there is 1/4 difference. Do the math. Example for same rental: non VIP  100000 points x $6 per 1000 = $600;  VIP PLATINUM (within 60 day window) 50000 points x $3 per 1000 = $150.



I kinda see what you're saying, but you really cannot cut the MFs in half because "the points double" because the reality is the VIPP owner still pays the _actual _MF rate on half the points.  I get what you're saying in that in theory if a VIPP can book 100% of their vacations within the discount window, then 1MM points becomes 2MM points when compared to a normal non-VIP owner. 

Still, let's do the math for dgalati's actual example, and include an automatic upgrade:



> Another example booked within 60 day discount window at Midtown 45, Thurs - Sunday 3 nights 1 bedroom deluxe. $675 cost from VIP. This room would have been 234,000 points , my cost on maintenace fees for these points is .0053 x 234,000 = $1240



If I were to book a studio at Midtown 45 for July 11-14 right now, it's 91000 points for three nights.  While there isn't currently an automatic upgrade available to a 1 bedroom deluxe, let's assume for a moment that there was.  @dgalati, this means I could book you a 1 bedroom deluxe for three nights for 91000 points using a free instant upgrade.  My average MFs on my points is about $4.50/1000 points right now, so if I actually charged you based upon my discounted points:

91*5.00=$455.00

You were charged $675.00.  If we assume the VIP owner actually booked the 1 bedroom deluxe without an upgrade, what cost you 234000 points would have cost a VIPP owner 117000 points:

117*5.00=$585.00

This example also demonstrates Jan's point above about VIP owners possibly renting for too little when compared to actual market demand and simply covering MFs.

I would typically charge $6-10/1000 points depending on market demand.  If I were to use the actual 91000 points:

91*7=$637.00
91*8=$728.00
91*9=$819.00
91*10=$910.00


----------



## chapjim

55plus said:


> Remove the variables you added and I stand by my math. Double the points and cut maintenance fees in half (because the points double) and forget the free guest certificates there is 1/4 difference. Do the math. Example for same rental: non VIP  100000 points x $6 per 1000 = $600;  VIP PLATINUM (within 60 day window) 50000 points x $3 per 1000 = $150.



I'm trying to figure out how to cut my $6/1,000 maintenance fee to $3/1,000.  Show me how to do that and I'll buy a few million more points and retire!


----------



## 55plus

chapjim said:


> I'm trying to figure out how to cut my $6/1,000 maintenance fee to $3/1,000.  Show me how to do that and I'll buy a few million more points and retire!


My bad, it should be $3 x 500 points = $150. Half points at half the cost of maintenance fees.


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> My bad, it should be $3 x 500 points = $150. Half points at half the cost of maintenance fees.



Wrong!   Stop posting until you’ve had more coffee. It’s just getting worse.  

Wes.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 55plus

chapjim said:


> I'm trying to figure out how to cut my $6/1,000 maintenance fee to $3/1,000.  Show me how to do that and I'll buy a few million more points and retire!


Big picture. Forget free or costs for guest certificates. Forget commissions or PayPal fees. Forget free upgrades even though that has value. Bottom line: 100000 points x $6 = $600  v.  50000 points x $3 = $150. This is fact, not theory. $150 is 1/4 of $600. How is this incorrect?


----------



## Braindead

55plus said:


> Big picture. Forget free or costs for guest certificates. Forget commissions or PayPal fees. Forget free upgrades even though that has value. Bottom line: 100000 points x $6


Your backwards, your turning 500k points into 1mil with the discount.
The grosss MFs would be same for 500k points turned into 1mil
1mil would be at half rate of the 500k = the same gross MFs for both


----------



## CO skier

55plus said:


> Big picture. Forget free or costs for guest certificates. Forget commissions or PayPal fees. Forget free upgrades even though that has value. Bottom line: 100000 points x $6 = $600  v.  50000 points x $3 = $150. This is fact, not theory. $150 is 1/4 of $600. How is this incorrect?


It is incorrect because you are applying the 50% discount twice at the same time.

The reservation may be calculated either (100,000 points x 50%) x $6/point =$300 for the reservation OR 100,000 points x ($6/point x 50%) = $300 for the reservations.

Do you see how the 50% discount is correctly applied only once in each of the calculations?


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> Big picture. Forget free or costs for guest certificates. Forget commissions or PayPal fees. Forget free upgrades even though that has value. Bottom line: 100000 points x $6 = $600  v.  50000 points x $3 = $150. This is fact, not theory. $150 is 1/4 of $600. How is this incorrect?



Oh my.  Math is escaping you.  

VIP Platinum benefits result in 50% discounts on the POINTS.  Not on the Maintenance fees.  So the 100,000 points rack rate reservation is discounted to 50,000 points.  The MF rate is constant.  So in your example this would be $6 per thousand.  Cost monetized would be $300.  Exactly half of $600.  Not 1/4.  

Now add guest fees and all other fees to arrive at your true inventory cost and you will find that the profit margin is thin.  

Wes.


----------



## ecwinch

I’m with everyone else... your double dipping with the $3 calculation.


----------



## 55plus

wjappraise said:


> Oh my.  Math is escaping you.
> 
> VIP Platinum benefits result in 50% discounts on the POINTS.  Not on the Maintenance fees.  So the 100,000 points rack rate reservation is discounted to 50,000 points.  The MF rate is constant.  So in your example this would be $6 per thousand.  Cost monetized would be $300.  Exactly half of $600.  Not 1/4.
> 
> Now add guest fees and all other fees to arrive at your true inventory cost and you will find that the profit margin is thin.
> 
> Wes.



In theory it's 1/4 not half. If you use ALL your points within 60 days window they are at half points. You double your points which means your maintenance fee costs are spread across twice as many points you own. It's simple math.


----------



## Braindead

I’m just wondering how many rental reservations are made less than 60 days out?
You guys are making it feel like all are, making owning look ridiculous. I know some of you are thinking that anyway.
I don’t think most owners make that many reservations at the discount window especially with kids & larger units

I just hope Eric & I are on the right path with no upgrades & or discounts on GCs.
If that’s the only benefit we lose with Privileges I’ll be a happy camper!!
Maybe we’ll get other benefits to help owners using for personal use only!!


----------



## wjappraise

55plus said:


> In theory it's 1/4 not half. If you use ALL your points within 60 days window they are at half points. You double your points which means your maintenance fee costs are spread across twice as many points you own. It's simple math.



Wow.  You are still not getting it.  It’s NOT 1/4.  End of story.  No one here is agreeing with you.  Please move on!  

You’ve been given several examples and still aren’t seeing it. And the examples are from VIP owners who are experienced.  

Wes.


----------



## ecwinch

Braindead said:


> I’m just wondering how many rental reservations are made less than 60 days out?
> You guys are making it feel like all are, making owning look ridiculous. I know some of you are thinking that anyway.
> I don’t think most owners make that many reservations at the discount window especially with kids & larger units
> 
> I just hope Eric & I are on the right path with no upgrades & or discounts on GCs.
> !



That’s all you ... I’m off the hook when it happens...l


----------



## ecwinch

55plus said:


> In theory it's 1/4 not half. If you use ALL your points within 60 days window they are at half points. You double your points which means your maintenance fee costs are spread across twice as many points you own. It's simple math.


Yes, if you make all your ressies with the discount you are doubling your points and cutting your mf costs in half. 

But you can’t then take BOTH the 50% discount on your points AND in your dues calculation.


----------



## Braindead

wjappraise said:


> Wow.  You are still not getting it.  It’s NOT 1/4.  End of story.  No one here is agreeing with you.  Please move on!
> 
> You’ve been given several examples and still aren’t seeing it. And the examples are from VIP owners who are experienced.
> 
> Wes.


I think this is what 55plus doing. Try this out:
1,000,000 points turn into
2,000,000 points worth of reservations with the 50% discount that makes 4
500,000 points reservations

4 —500k reservations with 1,000,000 points of MFs.

For 1,000,000 starting points you can make 4– 500,000 point reservations with 50% discount is net use of 250,000 points for each reservation.
Gets you another angle of what 55plus is ending up with

Where he’s wrong is he’s trying to end up with 4– 500,000 of net use points reservations not 4 at 250,000 net use of points


----------



## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> In theory it's 1/4 not half. If you use ALL your points within 60 days window they are at half points. You double your points which means your maintenance fee costs are spread across twice as many points you own. It's simple math.



So at the end of the day, the math has to add up 55plus - can we agree on that?  So, the math specific to the MF rates, has to actually add up to what the VIP owner actually pays for their MFs on the actual number of points that they own on an annualized basis - otherwise all of the "theory" doesn't matter when it comes to the "funny money" math with respect to effective MF rates.  

So let's use your own numbers as an example.  Let' say that MF rate is $6.00/1000 as we have been saying all along. Let's assume this VIPP owner has exactly 1MM points.  This means the VIPP owner is paying exactly $6000/year for his MFs on his 1MM points.  Agreed?  

Now let's use your assumptions and assume for a moment that the VIPP books every single transaction within the 60 day window.  So if we double the effective points to 2MM, and cut the MF rate in half:

2MM * $3.00/1000 = $6000.00

So you are correct in your overall assumption.  But, your math was wrong for the individual example, because in your actual equation - you didn't double the number of points you divided in in half, as someone else already pointed out:



> It is incorrect because you are applying the 50% discount twice at the same time.
> 
> The reservation may be calculated either (100,000 points x 50%) x $6/point =$300 for the reservation OR 100,000 points x ($6/point x 50%) = $300 for the reservations.
> 
> Do you see how the 50% discount is correctly applied only once in each of the calculations?



You are saying:  



> My bad, it should be $3 x 500 points = $150. Half points at half the cost of maintenance fees.





> Big picture. Forget free or costs for guest certificates. Forget commissions or PayPal fees. Forget free upgrades even though that has value. Bottom line: 100000 points x $6 = $600 v. 50000 points x $3 = $150. This is fact, not theory. $150 is 1/4 of $600. How is this incorrect?



So how are you incorrect?  The proof is in the pudding yes?  So let's use your math to actually reverse engineer what the actual VIP owner would be paying per year in MFs, which has to add up at the end of the day:

100000 points x $6 = $600.00  
Assuming 1MM points:  $600.00 x 10 (source: 100000 x 10=1MM real points total) = $6000.00 - matches up to what the VIP owner actually pays

VERDICT:  VALID/CORRECT

50000 points x $3 = $150.00
Assuming 2MM points:  $150.00 x 20 (source: 50000 x 20= 2MM effective points total) = $3000.00 - does NOT match up to what the VIP owner actually pays

VERDICT:  INVALID/INCORRECT

So, according to your own math/assumptions, the MF rate MUST be a constant in order to add up to the REAL amount of MFs that the VIP owner pays:

50000 points x $6 = $300.00
Assuming 2MM points: $300.00 x 20 (source: 50000 x 20 = 2MM effective points total) = $6000.00 - matches up to what the VIP owner actually pays

VERDICT:  VALID/CORRECT

Hopefully this shows you where your assumptions/equations are incorrect. Bottom line is if you play out your numbers and they do not add up to _what the MFs are that are actually paid out, _then your assumptions/equations are not valid.


----------



## CO skier

Or, let's use 55plus numbers where every reservation is $150.

A 1,000,000 VIP owner with mf of $6/thousand pays $6,000 per year.  Right?

The VIP makes twenty 100,000 reservation using the 50% VIP discount.  Right?

The VIP just wants to break even to pay the annual maintenance fees.  He uses 55plus math and calculates he needs $150 per reservation to break even.

VIP sells all twenty reservations for $150 each.  $150 x 20 = $3,000

VIP paid $6,000 in mf, received $3,000 for the rentals.

Bad math led to a $3,000 annual loss for the VIP.  (But there are some very happy customers who will be back the next year!)


----------



## chapjim

55plus said:


> My bad, it should be $3 x 500 points = $150. Half points at half the cost of maintenance fees.



But, my maintenance fees don't change!  Wyndham bills me the same amount every month regardless of whether I make a reservation.  Making a discounted reservation makes the points last longer but the maintenance fees ($/1,000 points) don't change.


----------



## jwalk03

I had no idea simple math was this difficult.  Its a 50% discount, not 75%.  50% = 1/2, not 1/4.  You can't take the discount twice to get to 1/4.


----------



## Jimag

wjappraise said:


> Sorry.  I’m a math major.  You’re way off!
> 
> Your error is that you have cut the point cost by 50% and then cut the maintenance fee by 50%. This maintenance fee does NOT change.
> 
> I’m sorry to be harsh, but your math fail is misleading to others. So it needs to be exposed.
> 
> Wes.


Agreed, but it appears to be more of a logic than a math fail.


----------



## wjappraise

Math is logic.


----------



## Jimag

wjappraise said:


> Math is logic.


Ah! Now we move into semantics, but I am agreeing with you in substance.


----------



## 55plus

1 MIL points x $6/1000 = $6000
2 MIL points x $3/1000 = $6000

Maintenance fees co$ts are the constant, the amount of points are the variable. Book everything at half points you have 2 MIL points for the same cost as a non VIP owners 1 MIL points. It's that simple.


----------



## dgalati

i w


55plus said:


> 1 MIL points x $6/1000 = $6000
> 2 MIL points x $3/1000 = $6000
> 
> Maintenance fees co$ts are the constant, the amount of points are the variable. Book everything at half points you have 2 MIL points for the same cost as a non VIP owners 1 MIL points. It's that simple.


That's what I was saying. Double your points without raising you maintenance fees cuts cost per point in half.


----------



## wjappraise

dgalati said:


> i w
> 
> That's what I was saying. Double your points without raising you maintenance fees cuts cost per point in half.



In half.  Not in quarter.  

Wes.


----------



## HitchHiker71

55plus said:


> 1 MIL points x $6/1000 = $6000
> 2 MIL points x $3/1000 = $6000
> 
> Maintenance fees co$ts are the constant, the amount of points are the variable. Book everything at half points you have 2 MIL points for the same cost as a non VIP owners 1 MIL points. It's that simple.



Look at my post above.  While your macro assumption is correct, your micro mathematics are wrong - which is proven out by what I posted using your own math.


----------



## Richelle

This thread went way off track. At this point, the only thing remotely close to the topic is the discounts VIPs get. Math was never my strong suit. Once they started adding letters and weird symbols into equations, it was all down hill. In high school, when they said I had to choose between Trigonometry or Calculus, I laughed and said “Hard Pass”.  I forget what I ended up taking. In college I took accounting. Anyway, maybe we can get back to the topic at hand. Maybe we speculated as far as we can speculate, but maybe we can talk more about what we would like to see In the new benefits?  I know it’s been touched upon, but if someone has a better idea, I’m all ears.  What benefits do you see them possibly adding or what do you hope they would add?  I know Wyndham reads these threads. Maybe they were watching before we veered off track?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Braindead

I hope Wyndham acknowledges that controlling GCs is the key to stopping what they see as negative uses by owners.
Why do Platinum owners need 15 per million points?
That’s 1 free for every 67k points or worse at 1,001,000 they get 30, now its 1 per 34k points
Makes no sense if you don’t want them renting.
Severely limit free GCs & charge $500 or more for each additional GC
Friends or family can be an owner just like you so that’s no excuse that you need more free GCs

No discounts & or upgrades on GCs.
If a reservation has received a discount & or an upgrade it’s locked from adding a guest.
Flip side if a guest is added then the reservation is locked out of discounts & upgrades

I would severely cut free GCs on all levels of ownership not just Platinum as I only pointed out what Platinum gets 

FYI— If you put a reservation in EH it doesn’t use a GC


----------



## jwalk03

Braindead said:


> I hope Wyndham acknowledges that controlling GCs is the key to stopping what they see as negative uses by owners.
> Why do Platinum owners need 15 per million points?
> That’s 1 free for every 67k points or worse at 1,001,000 they get 30, now its 1 per 34k points
> Makes no sense if you don’t want them renting.
> Severely limit free GCs & charge $500 or more for each additional GC
> Friends or family can be an owner just like you so that’s no excuse that you need more free GCs
> 
> No discounts & or upgrades on GCs.
> If a reservation has received a discount & or an upgrade it’s locked from adding a guest.
> Flip side if a guest is added then the reservation is locked out of discounts & upgrades
> 
> I would severely cut free GCs on all levels of ownership not just Platinum as I only pointed out what Platinum gets
> 
> FYI— If you put a reservation in EH it doesn’t use a GC



As a frequent rentee I hate this idea.  And I have a hard time believing they will do it.  Wyndham likes some level of renting- it brings in new suckers for them to sell too!  EH is soo much more expensive than renting I’m not sure why anyone uses it to be honest!!


----------



## dgalati

jwalk03 said:


> As a frequent rentee I hate this idea.  And I have a hard time believing they will do it.  Wyndham likes some level of renting- it brings in new suckers for them to sell too!  EH is soo much more expensive than renting I’m not sure why anyone uses it to be honest!!


EH is the biggest mega renter at a inflated price!


----------



## CO skier

jwalk03 said:


> And I have a hard time believing they will do it.  Wyndham likes some level of renting- it brings in new suckers for them to sell too!


There were a number of Wyndham renters who expressed the same thinking a couple years ago that Wyndham would "never get rid of cancel-rebook" because it brought in so many new prospects.

Wyndham did not get rid of cancel-rebook, but things did change.

Why would anyone who rents a bargain reservation sign on for an $18,000+ purchase?  I would be thinking, "I can just rent from Joe Renter for the next 18 years at the same price and not have to worry about an annual commitment and selling my ownership 20 years from now".

I think the tour sales rate for the Wyndham 4 days/3 nights promotions are much more lucrative than the conversions from owner rentals.  Wyndham does not need owner rentals to fill their sales rooms.


----------



## Sandy VDH

The problem is you don't GET 2M points, you get the value of 2M, but you actually only receive 1M. 

Points are $6/K,  You have a 1M so $6000 annually.

Your points NEVER double, it just costs less of them to book a night during the discount window.  So the 100K reservation is NOT still 100K when it is discounted it is 50K.  However you have a perceived value of a 100K reservation, but not an actual cost of 100k.  So 50K at 6K, would cost $300 Period. 

I have a math degree at @55plus fails.

I keep track of how much perceived value I receive a year, but I don't really get those points, I just get the appearance of it.   I track my annual received and since the cancel and rebook is gone it has gone down significantly. 

I will have to get back to my tracking spread sheet to let you know what trend has been.  I track, the actual points cost, the non-discounted value of what I received (including discounts and free upgrades).  On a 1M account it has dropped from about nearly 5M to just over 2M.


----------



## ecwinch

Richelle said:


> This thread went way off track. At this point, the only thing remotely close to the topic is the discounts VIPs get. Math was never my strong suit. Once they started adding letters and weird symbols into equations, it was all down hill. In high school, when they said I had to choose between Trigonometry or Calculus, I laughed and said “Hard Pass”.  I forget what I ended up taking. In college I took accounting. Anyway, maybe we can get back to the topic at hand. Maybe we speculated as far as we can speculate, but maybe we can talk more about what we would like to see In the new benefits?  I know it’s been touched upon, but if someone has a better idea, I’m all ears.  What benefits do you see them possibly adding or what do you hope they would add?  I know Wyndham reads these threads. Maybe they were watching before we veered off track?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




That is part of the obfuscation strategy... we bury these conversations in an unrelated thread..... just look back at the last VIP long thread from the 2017  changes..


----------



## CO skier

ecwinch said:


> That is part of the obfuscation strategy... we bury these conversations in an unrelated thread..... just look back at the last VIP long thread from the 2017  changes..


If this is the 2017 thread you are referring to

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-new-club-wyndham-website-general-discussion.256063/

What is the "obfuscation strategy"?  This is just another discussion in a timeshare forum.

I found the sidetracks, non-sequiturs, digressions, speculations, “guarantees” of being able to rent reservations to be at least as interesting as the original intent about the new website in 2017.  Those were the good olde days.

The perspective that a few months hindsight after a “revelation” can provide is amazing.  Will the same occur after the details of Privileges are revealed?


----------



## dgalati

Sandy VDH said:


> The problem is you don't GET 2M points, you get the value of 2M, but you actually only receive 1M.
> 
> Points are $6/K,  You have a 1M so $6000 annually.
> 
> Your points NEVER double, it just costs less of them to book a night during the discount window.  So the 100K reservation is NOT still 100K when it is discounted it is 50K.  However you have a perceived value of a 100K reservation, but not an actual cost of 100k.  So 50K at 6K, would cost $300 Period.
> 
> I have a math degree at @55plus fails.
> 
> I keep track of how much perceived value I receive a year, but I don't really get those points, I just get the appearance of it.   I track my annual received and since the cancel and rebook is gone it has gone down significantly.
> 
> I will have to get back to my tracking spread sheet to let you know what trend has been.  I track, the actual points cost, the non-discounted value of what I received (including discounts and free upgrades).  On a 1M account it has dropped from about nearly 5M to just over 2M.



Yes you are spot on. Your points don't double you just receive a huge discount booking in the 60 day window.  It costs me less to rent a VIP points at their discount of 1/2 off instead of using double of mine. $6 x 100,000 non VIP or $6 x 50,000 plus guest fee Kind of like a buy one get one free off at the grocery store it is the perception of getting some thing free!


----------



## Cyrus24

So, have we learned anything new about  Privileges and/or grandfathered VIP benefits?  It’s been kind of quiet on that front.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Cyrus24 said:


> So, have we learned anything new about  Privileges and/or grandfathered VIP benefits?  It’s been kind of quiet on that front.



I haven't seen anything net new over the past week that is worth mentioning.


----------



## Braindead

Wyndhams adversary is the amount of cheap rentals available not renting at higher cost of MFs without discounts & upgrades.
Can we all agree that sales is the number one objective for Wyndham?
Cheap rentals hurt sales not just EH.
Some think cheap rentals get potential buyers in the door.
I think cheap rentals probably hurt sales more than it helps.
If renters have found a cheap rental there’s no incentive to buy.
They’ve already found a source for a stay for well under full MFs & will go back to that source.

If Wyndham thinks cheap rentals are hurting EH & especially sales that will be targeted in Privileges no matter what anyone says here.
Top 3 places I see Wyndham targeting are:
1. Increase sales potential would also help keep VIPs as happy owners
2. Further curtail renting.
3. Auto upgrades. Has to be fixed or upgrades will have more restrictive paths or completely done away with.


More restrictive paths on upgrades so it’s “simplified”:
PR to bigger PR
Presidential to bigger Presidential
1bd deluxe to bigger deluxe
1 bd deluxe lower level to bigger deluxe lower level
1bd deluxe ocean view to to bigger deluxe ocean view
Upgrades are a straight path up as it might be the only way they can get the programming to work


----------



## cschenk7

paxsarah said:


> He said it was Presidential Reserve, where points aren’t points until inside 30 days.


New question based on "a point is a point".  I am a Wyndham CWA owner (new Discussion board member) and have been struggling with buying more points in a UDI contract because I have been told I am not seeing all the inventory at every resort because I can only see CWA Inventory.  How can I validate this?  I have been through the CWA books about how many units are "access inventory" units, but that doesn't explain if I truly can never see "Select or Fixed Week" inventory even at 10 months and closer at non-Access resorts (because again, told that all resorts have some access inventory if if they are not access resorts).  Does this make any sense?  Are my CWA only points not allowing me to book units identified as UDI inventory?  Also, would owning even a small amount of points in a UDI contract (developer or resale) open more inventory up to me with my full point power of my membership including CWA points? There is no way to validate this that I can find on the website so I don't know if something behind the scenes actually differentiates the type of inventory and what I can or cannot see as a CWA only owner.  Thank you for any help of clarity.


----------



## davejulien

cschenk7 said:


> New question based on "a point is a point".  I am a Wyndham CWA owner (new Discussion board member) and have been struggling with buying more points in a UDI contract because I have been told I am not seeing all the inventory at every resort because I can only see CWA Inventory.  How can I validate this?  I have been through the CWA books about how many units are "access inventory" units, but that doesn't explain if I truly can never see "Select or Fixed Week" inventory even at 10 months and closer at non-Access resorts (because again, told that all resorts have some access inventory if if they are not access resorts).  Does this make any sense?  Are my CWA only points not allowing me to book units identified as UDI inventory?  Also, would owning even a small amount of points in a UDI contract (developer or resale) open more inventory up to me with my full point power of my membership including CWA points? There is no way to validate this that I can find on the website so I don't know if something behind the scenes actually differentiates the type of inventory and what I can or cannot see as a CWA only owner.  Thank you for any help of clarity.



This is a flat out lie by sales that I got wrapped into myself.  I called Owner Services to validate this and they said it’s not true.  After 10 months all points are the same.  Only point they are different is with ARP (13-10 months).  Don’t change your CWA contract for this.  I am Platinum with 1m points all CWA and I’ve never had an issue booking.  By any chance was this Bonnet Creek?  BTW, this is a major deviation from the thread topic.


----------



## cschenk7

davejulien said:


> This is a flat out lie by sales that I got wrapped into myself.  I called Owner Services to validate this and they said it’s not true.  After 10 months all points are the same.  Only point they are different is with ARP (13-10 months).  Don’t change your CWA contract for this.  I am Platinum with 1m points all CWA and I’ve never had an issue booking.  By any chance was this Bonnet Creek?  BTW, this is a major deviation from the thread topic.


Sorry...this was my first post and I read something about a point is a point and ran with it.  I just found out how to start a thread and did so.  It does tie in though (somewhat) to the "Privileges" because I was being asked to buy to split my ownership and get a "power deed" before new Privileges takes place in 2020 and the tiers change.   No, the it wasn't Bonnet where I heard this, it was in Atlantic City.  I just have no way to validate except that is "feels" like inventory is missing for places that last year (when I had a split contract) I was able to get.


----------



## cschenk7

davejulien said:


> This is a flat out lie by sales that I got wrapped into myself.  I called Owner Services to validate this and they said it’s not true.  After 10 months all points are the same.  Only point they are different is with ARP (13-10 months).  Don’t change your CWA contract for this.  I am Platinum with 1m points all CWA and I’ve never had an issue booking.  By any chance was this Bonnet Creek?  BTW, this is a major deviation from the thread topic.


Thank you for answering though!


----------



## HitchHiker71

cschenk7 said:


> Sorry...this was my first post and I read something about a point is a point and ran with it.  I just found out how to start a thread and did so.  It does tie in though (somewhat) to the "Privileges" because I was being asked to buy to split my ownership and get a "power deed" before new Privileges takes place in 2020 and the tiers change.   No, the it wasn't Bonnet where I heard this, it was in Atlantic City.  I just have no way to validate except that is "feels" like inventory is missing for places that last year (when I had a split contract) I was able to get.



It was me who said points are points within the standard 10 month booking window (except for the 75% of PR inventory reserved for PR owners until 30 days).  This is an absolute true statement.  The ONLY time your CWA/CWS ownership makes a difference is in the ARP booking windows from 10-13 months as others have already pointed out.  Sales weasels will do or say whatever they have to to get you to spend money and make a commission.  Always validate whatever you hear with Ownercare and/or here on the TUG forums.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bryjake

The question of after 10 months of points are points is important

We are in New Orleans and at our owner presentation this came up again

The sale full quart press was that cwa has different availability than select.   Therefore balance availability with cwa and select.  Sales quote “you are not seeing the complete inventory”

They offer me nyc midtown select.  I am curious on that locations maintenance fees (did not buy but curious if they were doing me a favor or unloading high mf site)

Wrapping up, sales mentioned privileges is coming.  Buy now because points are not points after 10 months.  Balanced contracts is the key.  Sales yadda yadda

Sales also mentioned that upgrades to club pass and new perks would be more geared for the higher vip levels.  

As usual, sales was not fully informed and clear on the details. 

I love this website because it helps me better understand my ts and to better stand on firm ground when confronted with lies and misdirection.


----------



## dgalati

bryjake said:


> The question of after 10 months of points are points is important
> 
> We are in New Orleans and at our owner presentation this came up again
> 
> The sale full quart press was that cwa has different availability than select.   Therefore balance availability with cwa and select.  Sales quote “you are not seeing the complete inventory”
> 
> They offer me nyc midtown select.  I am curious on that locations maintenance fees (did not buy but curious if they were doing me a favor or unloading high mf site)
> 
> Wrapping up, sales mentioned privileges is coming.  Buy now because points are not points after 10 months.  Balanced contracts is the key.  Sales yadda yadda
> 
> Sales also mentioned that upgrades to club pass and new perks would be more geared for the higher vip levels.
> 
> As usual, sales was not fully informed and clear on the details.
> 
> I love this website because it helps me better understand my ts and to better stand on firm ground when confronted with lies and misdirection.


Knowledge is power.


----------



## Trevorflorida

We have 1.3 million in re-sale points. The contracts area combination of Wyndham Access, Worldmark Points, Margaritaville and a Hawaii property.  We just visited an owner’s update and the sales manager gave us a ridiculous offer for us to buy 400,000 points for a $100,000 dollars. He said with that purchase we could double our points and rent out the other half  of our points.  Of course Wyndham would get 40% and I would get 60 % of the rental fee. Why would I want to then put $30,000 down payment and have 120 months at $1,237 payment to off set my maintenance cost.  I’ll keep my $100,000 dollars ear interest and pay my maintenance happily knowing I paid pennies on the dollar per thousand points  as opposed to $253.00 per developer points.  Wake up people.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Trevorflorida said:


> We have 1.3 million in re-sale points. The contracts area combination of Wyndham Access, Worldmark Points, Margaritaville and a Hawaii property.  We just visited an owner’s update and the sales manager gave us a ridiculous offer for us to buy 400,000 points for a $100,000 dollars. He said with that purchase we could double our points and rent out the other half  of our points.  Of course Wyndham would get 40% and I would get 60 % of the rental fee. Why would I want to then put $30,000 down payment and have 120 months at $1,237 payment to off set my maintenance cost.  I’ll keep my $100,000 dollars ear interest and pay my maintenance happily knowing I paid pennies on the dollar per thousand points  as opposed to $253.00 per developer points.  Wake up people.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 12042


Oh Wow. I still can't past renaming the levels.  Marketing geniuses - NOT!


----------



## Braindead

If it’s an Emerald benefit for friends & family reservations.
What’s that mean for non VIPs?? None??
Upgrades mentioned so they’re expecting upgrades to stay. Just hope it can be fixed!!


----------



## chapjim

bryjake said:


> The question of after 10 months of points are points is important
> 
> We are in New Orleans and at our owner presentation this came up again
> 
> The sale full quart press was that cwa has different availability than select.   Therefore balance availability with cwa and select.  Sales quote “you are not seeing the complete inventory”
> 
> They offer me nyc midtown select.  I am curious on that locations maintenance fees (did not buy but curious if they were doing me a favor or unloading high mf site)
> 
> Wrapping up, sales mentioned privileges is coming.  Buy now because points are not points after 10 months.  Balanced contracts is the key.  Sales yadda yadda
> 
> Sales also mentioned that upgrades to club pass and new perks would be more geared for the higher vip levels.
> 
> As usual, sales was not fully informed and clear on the details.
> 
> I love this website because it helps me better understand my ts and to better stand on firm ground when confronted with lies and misdirection.




Balanced contracts!  I love it!  Used to be that if you owned CWP, you should convert to Select and if you owned Select, you should convert to CWP.  Now you need both.

Fortunately, there are no other combinations.


----------



## HitchHiker71

chapjim said:


> Balanced contracts!  I love it!  Used to be that if you owned CWP, you should convert to Select and if you owned Select, you should convert to CWP.  Now you need both.
> 
> Fortunately, there are no other combinations.



This “balanced contract” combination actually has some value if the owner typically books within the ARP window for a resort that has both CWS and CWA inventory.  That said, AFAIK you cannot “combine” your CWS and CWA points within the ARP window, so you would need to have enough contract points available with either CWA or CWS to cover the entire booking.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Balanced contracts!  I love it!  Used to be that if you owned CWP, you should convert to Select and if you owned Select, you should convert to CWP.  Now you need both.
> 
> Fortunately, there are no other combinations.


LOL, Im sure Wyndham will come up with a few other products with new names to sell. Some just cant resist buying the latest and greatest.


----------



## Braindead

dgalati said:


> Some just cant resist buying the latest and greatest.


I don’t have too, Wyndham is going to give me Titanium benefits even though I’m over 200,000 points short.
Thank You Wyndham for giving me the latest & greatest absolutely FREE


----------



## davejulien

Braindead said:


> I don’t have too, Wyndham is going to give me Titanium benefits even though I’m over 200,000 points short.
> Thank You Wyndham for giving me the latest & greatest absolutely FREE



Are you Presidential Reserve?


----------



## Braindead

davejulien said:


> Are you Presidential Reserve?


Yes


----------



## davejulien

Braindead said:


> Yes



That’s why.  You already paid through the nose.  

Titanium will most likely bring PR benefits to non-PR owners.  Legacy collection and such...  I’m Platinum so I’ll be Diamond.  I’ll probably see a few benefit changes but not Legacy and some of these other “perks” that come with PR.


----------



## luvNMB52

I have just finished reading this entire thread and do not see my question addressed.  We are grandfathered Silver VIP (309k points).  

The wording on the papers posted showing the new names for the various levels is worrisome to me in that it says that Silver owners (with the notation of having 400,000-699,999 points) will be called Gold and retain the benefits of Silver plus some possible enhancements.  

It also says that owners that are “close to being Silver” with 300,000-399,999 points will be Emerald but a “small purchase” is required.  

I don’t see our exact situation explained... that of being Grandfathered Silver VIP.  Does anyone have any information or thoughts on this situation?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Richelle

Sandi Bo said:


> Oh Wow. I still can't past renaming the levels.  Marketing geniuses - NOT!



Or are they?  I've been hearing sales people tell buyers, if they buy into VIP silver now, they will "give" them Gold when the changes take effect.  They neglect to mention it's just a name change, and that they will still have the same silver benefits (25% discounts, 6 months to use the points deposit feature, etc).  They lead people to believe they will have the current Gold privileges when the changes take effect.  I wouldn't be surprised, if they did the name changes to intentionally confuse people, and allow sales people to take advantage of that confusion.  Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I cannot see another purpose for the name change.


----------



## Richelle

luvNMB52 said:


> I have just finished reading this entire thread and do not see my question addressed.  We are grandfathered Silver VIP (309k points).
> 
> The wording on the papers posted showing the new names for the various levels is worrisome to me in that it says that Silver owners (with the notation of having 400,000-699,999 points) will be called Gold and retain the benefits of Silver plus some possible enhancements.
> 
> It also says that owners that are “close to being Silver” with 300,000-399,999 points will be Emerald but a “small purchase” is required.
> 
> I don’t see our exact situation explained... that of being Grandfathered Silver VIP.  Does anyone have any information or thoughts on this situation?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



The memo that was released, was posted here.  VIPs who are grandfathered will maintain their status and benefits.  It was the last page of the memo.  Post # 126 by Cyrus 24.  It said they will have the Gold privileges under the new program.  Gold is the new Silver.


----------



## luvNMB52

Richelle said:


> The memo that was released, was posted here.  VIPs who are grandfathered will maintain their status and benefits.  It was the last page of the memo.  Post # 126 by Cyrus 24.  It said they will have the Gold privileges under the new program.  Gold is the new Silver.



Thanks, Richelle!  I did read that post, but had trouble reading that last page b/c it was pretty blurry.  I tried again and was able to make it out.  
Melinda


----------



## dgalati

Richelle said:


> Or are they?  I've been hearing sales people tell buyers, if they buy into VIP silver now, they will "give" them Gold when the changes take effect.  They neglect to mention it's just a name change, and that they will still have the same silver benefits (25% discounts, 6 months to use the points deposit feature, etc).  They lead people to believe they will have the current Gold privileges when the changes take effect.  I wouldn't be surprised, if they did the name changes to intentionally confuse people, and allow sales people to take advantage of that confusion.  Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I cannot see another purpose for the name change.


Spot on with your assuptions.


----------



## sandkastle4966

This thread has made my day !  

2 perfect SAT math scores, and 1 almost in this house are rolling on the floor laughing !   (FYI - we are all in agreement....1/2)

as far as new levels - my plan is to do NO updates so no-one  looks at my holdings!  and I keep up-to-date with TUG wyn happenings !


----------



## paxsarah

Richelle said:


> Or are they?  I've been hearing sales people tell buyers, if they buy into VIP silver now, they will "give" them Gold when the changes take effect.  They neglect to mention it's just a name change, and that they will still have the same silver benefits (25% discounts, 6 months to use the points deposit feature, etc).  They lead people to believe they will have the current Gold privileges when the changes take effect.  I wouldn't be surprised, if they did the name changes to intentionally confuse people, and allow sales people to take advantage of that confusion.  Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I cannot see another purpose for the name change.



I completely agree with this. What seems to be intentional confusion will surely benefit sales, yet it will be a big hassle for the front-line phone staff and owner care to explain the facts to confused owners.


----------



## dgalati

davejulien said:


> That’s why.  You already paid through the nose.
> 
> Titanium will most likely bring PR benefits to non-PR owners.  Legacy collection and such...  I’m Platinum so I’ll be Diamond.  I’ll probably see a few benefit changes but not Legacy and some of these other “perks” that come with PR.



The multi levels with additional levels reminds me of Donkey Kong. When you finally get to the the top level there is another level that is added and it is a little more difficult for all to achieve. Its all about keeping you in their game but with Donkey Kong it was only $0.25 a game to play. You may have to pay with Bitcoin also in the future a sales rep told me at one WOW.


----------



## liquidmas

Post 192 gave a sales hub site. That site has a second page that shows current and new levels. Silver will be named gold but will still receive what is currently silver benefits. The unlimited housekeeping may be lost on future vips. The site said only those current vips at the time of launch in 2020 will maintain unlimited housekeeping. Those obtaining VIP after the launch may have a specific number of unit cleans.


----------



## HitchHiker71

From a post on one of the Wyndham FB forums:



> Today we attended an update at National Harbor. We were paired with Joe, a very nice gentleman who was low pressure. Soon after Rob materialized; he's a supervisor who has spoken with us previously at this location. We asked for some clarification on the new Privileges program. Since it's still in development he didn't have a lot to share, but this is what he did say:
> -Emerald Level (300,000-399,999 points) was developed to try and pacify owners who didn't take the opportunity prior to the 2012 increase in points for VIP levels to make a purchase that would have grandfathered them into Silver VIP.
> -All Presidential Reserve owners will automatically be granted Titanium status.
> -Titanium owners would receive 60% points discounts.
> -Unit upgrades for Titanium owners would occur at 90 days prior to check in.
> 
> He indicated that no one will lose any VIP benefits they currently have, but it's a bit of a gray area as to whether the new benefits at any level would be given without making a purchase. So, for instance, a Platinum VIP owner who has 1.4 million points would be Titanium, but they might not get that 60% points discount; they would continue to receive 50%.
> 
> As always, he had a suggestion for making a change to our ownership, one that actually might have some validity to it if we were in the position financially to do so. But we declined, he thanked us for our time and said he'd see us next time we're there. Took slightly over an hour, and we walked away with another 30,000 Wyndham Rewards points.



First I’ve heard any mention of the 90 day auto-upgrade window for Titanium.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Baby Jane

55plus said:


> Renting to others was a sales weasel lie - say anything to make a sale, even lie, lie and they lie there way into your pockets, wallets and bank accounts. In the Wyndham directory it states not for commercial use, so Wyndham in general never approved it, but didn't prevent of it. The last policy change took care of mega renters, which allowed owner to have more availability at demand locations and during demand timeframes. Prior to the policy change you needed APR for Daytona Bike Week, Biketoberfest, Daytona 500. Not any more thanks to the policy change. Last year I was able to book Bikeweek and the 500 at half points, but you have to work the website and stay on top of it.


The 500 is easier to get in ARP now but we were not able to rebook and get our full points back the last 2 years. We are back to where availability comes within the 15 day window because I am sure mega renters pay the points protection


----------



## dgalati

Baby Jane said:


> The 500 is easier to get in ARP now but we were not able to rebook and get our full points back the last 2 years. We are back to where availability comes within the 15 day window because I am sure mega renters pay the points protection


Only mega renter left is Extra Holidays. The rest were squeezed out by Wyndham's new rules and the VIP cheap rentals. Not as profitable as it was in the past with cancel and rebook.


----------



## bryjake

HitchHiker71 said:


> From a post on one of the Wyndham FB forums:
> 
> 
> 
> First I’ve heard any mention of the 90 day auto-upgrade window for Titanium.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Attended New Orleans sales update that reflected what was said above.  "You will not loose VIP benefits" but would need to purchase to get "New level" benefits. 
You would get the name but have benefits at old VIP levels and would not get the new benefits.
It was also hinted that the upper class (Titanium / Diamond), would get the nicer club pass perks.
My feedback was that if they did that, it would feel like gut punch to owners.  
They also mentioned a price increase in June / July... about $300 per 1,000 points.


----------



## Jan M.

dgalati said:


> Only mega renter left is Extra Holidays. The rest were squeezed out by Wyndham's new rules and the VIP cheap rentals. Not as profitable as it was in the past with cancel and rebook.



The *only* thing that is even partially correct about your statement is that some megarenters are finding it harder to make the profit they once did. Only a few megarenters were eliminated by Wyndham two years ago. Many weren't and more have joined their ranks. The few megarenters that Wyndham got rid of were the ones involved in buying massive amounts of points, stripping the deeds or contracts of up to three use years of points and then selling those deeds and contracts. The megarenters who weren't involved in that are still around. 

I keep wondering why those of you who are not VIP owners and have no intention of ever spending the money to be VIP owners keep continuing to post on this thread. None of you have added any information pertinent to the thread nor of value to the people who will be impacted by the changes. Some of you might want to ask yourselves what is your purpose in continuing to insert yourselves into this thread. Having the courtesy to learn the difference between you can post but should you post would be greatly appreciated by many.


----------



## dgalati

Jan M. said:


> The *only* thing that is even partially correct about your statement is that some megarenters are finding it harder to make the profit they once did. Only a few megarenters were eliminated by Wyndham two years ago. Many weren't and more have joined their ranks. The few megarenters that Wyndham got rid of were the ones involved in buying massive amounts of points, stripping the deeds or contracts of up to three use years of points and then selling those deeds and contracts. The megarenters who weren't involved in that are still around.
> 
> I keep wondering why those of you who are not VIP owners and have no intention of ever spending the money to be VIP owners keep continuing to post on this thread. None of you have added any information pertinent to the thread nor of value to the people who will be impacted by the changes. Some of you might want to ask yourselves what is your purpose in continuing to insert yourselves into this thread. Having the courtesy to learn the difference between you can post but should you post would be greatly appreciated by many.


 I respect you opinion Jan.  Sometimes a different point of view helps others and then to others it may not.


----------



## Eric B

dgalati said:


> I respect you opinion Jan.  Sometimes a different point of view helps others and then to others it may not.



Gotta say that I agree with @Jan M. on this.  While different points of view are generally helpful, it's really only useful to obtain those differing points of view when they are on the same topic.  I respect the point of view that developer purchases to get to the Wyndham VIP levels is not a great choice for many due to the higher cost; folks that hold that point of view should feel free to share it when and where it's appropriate.  I don't think a thread regarding the upcoming changes to that program is the appropriate place, though.  Some of us have current VIP ownership with Wyndham and are interested in learning about the changes and have been reading this thread for that reason.  The frequent posts with elementary math and logic errors haven't added value to the conversation from my perspective, though.  It would be akin to my adding a post that says my favorite color is blue to this thread without adding anything about Wyndham privileges; it could be true and it could have value to some readers, but would really be in the wrong place.  This thread is 14 pages long already and I realize that I'm just venting and not helping the situation, so I'll stop.  I do think, however, that we should consider whether or not we are adding useful information to the subject people are discussing when we enter a conversation because, as in real life, butting into someone's conversation and changing the subject repeatedly can be perceived as rude.

Oh, I like chocolate, too.


----------



## Xcalibur

Eric B said:


> Gotta say that I agree with @Jan M. on this.  While different points of view are generally helpful, it's really only useful to obtain those differing points of view when they are on the same topic.  I respect the point of view that developer purchases to get to the Wyndham VIP levels is not a great choice for many due to the higher cost; folks that hold that point of view should feel free to share it when and where it's appropriate.  I don't think a thread regarding the upcoming changes to that program is the appropriate place, though.  Some of us have current VIP ownership with Wyndham and are interested in learning about the changes and have been reading this thread for that reason.  The frequent posts with elementary math and logic errors haven't added value to the conversation from my perspective, though.  It would be akin to my adding a post that says my favorite color is blue to this thread without adding anything about Wyndham privileges; it could be true and it could have value to some readers, but would really be in the wrong place.  This thread is 14 pages long already and I realize that I'm just venting and not helping the situation, so I'll stop.  I do think, however, that we should consider whether or not we are adding useful information to the subject people are discussing when we enter a conversation because, as in real life, butting into someone's conversation and changing the subject repeatedly can be perceived as rude.
> 
> Oh, I like chocolate, too.


If a person wants the VIP privileges they just need to pay for it. TUG provides great learning opportunities to do it as efficiently as possible. Ppl with VIP have the challenge of getting to their break even point (return on original investment)  whereas those who bought on the resale do not have such a situation. Benefits to both sides really. Many ppl who bought from the developer did not have the knowledge or power that TUG provides. At the end of day, if you want VIP, then go get it. Keep in mind that VIP privileges keep on evolving or devolving so it really is buyer beware


----------



## Eric B

Xcalibur said:


> If a person wants the VIP privileges they just need to pay for it. TUG provides great learning opportunities to do it as efficiently as possible. Ppl with VIP have the challenge of getting to their break even point (return on original investment)  whereas those who bought on the resale do not have such a situation. Benefits to both sides really. Many ppl who bought from the developer did not have the knowledge or power that TUG provides. At the end of day, if you want VIP, then go get it. Keep in mind that VIP privileges keep on evolving or devolving so it really is buyer beware



Roger that.  This thread’s subject started being about upcoming changes to the program, not the wisdom or efficacy of buying into the program.


----------



## Richelle

bryjake said:


> Attended New Orleans sales update that reflected what was said above.  "You will not loose VIP benefits" but would need to purchase to get "New level" benefits.
> You would get the name but have benefits at old VIP levels and would not get the new benefits.
> It was also hinted that the upper class (Titanium / Diamond), would get the nicer club pass perks.
> My feedback was that if they did that, it would feel like gut punch to owners.
> They also mentioned a price increase in June / July... about $300 per 1,000 points.



First, stop going to updates and expecting to get accurate information. The sales people know about as much as we do at this point. Any information they give you, is whatever they think will get you to buy. Even if you told them you’re not buying, they are still going to try. 

Second, There may be a price increase in June, but I doubt it will be $300 per 1,000. They usually only increase it a few dollars at a time. Last check it was $254  but I did hear some New York rep put down $294 per 1,000 on the paperwork as the MSRP.   He could have put one million per 1,000. It would not make it true. 

Third, the only people who would need to buy more points to get the new benefits would be people who want Emerald. Even if they already have 300,000 points, they would have to make a purchase to buy into VIP. Otherwise Wyndham would be giving away VIP to a non-VIP. That would ruffle more then a few feathers. Current VIP owners will keep their current benefits, and get the new ones as well, and do NOT need to make a purchase. Owners with more the. 1.4 million points, and PR owners (who have at least 1 million PR points) will get Titanium status without having to buy more points points because they are already VIP. 

Finally, the sales reps know nothing about the new perks other then what has be publicly announced or in that memo. I’ve been hearing numerous stories of sales people making things up about the new program (on top of their other lies). It’s nonsense. Some of us have inside contacts who have been consistently right.  If they don’t know something, they say they don’t know. They don’t make things up. If someone says “I heard at an update....” I don’t care what comes after that because there is a 99.99% chance it’s a lie or a half truth. The only time I would mention something I heard at an update, would be to say how ludicrous their claim was. Or to give examples of the lies and misinformation they spread. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle

I just saw they added a second page to their publication. Pretty much just repeats what we’ve already said about the name changes. Judging by the asterisks next to the unlimited housekeeping, it looks like new VIPs in all levels will not get unlimited housekeeping. I wasn’t sure if the unlimited HK was being taken away from just the lower levels or all levels.  Sounds like all levels will not have it?

https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf






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## chapjim

dgalati said:


> I respect you opinion Jan.  Sometimes a different point of view helps others and then to others it may not.



Different points of view are useful if they are *informed* points of view.  Otherwise, they are just idle chatter.


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Different points of view are useful if they are i*nformed* points of view.  Otherwise, they are just idle chatter.


Like this one has any value? I respect your opinion but this reply is nonsense. I wish I had a dislike button now as someone posted earlier.


----------



## Braindead

dgalati said:


> Like this one has any value? I respect your opinion but this reply is nonsense. I wish I had a dislike button now as someone posted earlier.


Dislike dislike
Ignore, yes Braindead ignore


----------



## Richelle

Braindead said:


> Dislike dislike
> Ignore, yes Braindead ignore



Did Braindead go brain dead?  Lol

You’re comment made me laugh. Thanks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bnoble

Jan M. said:


> I keep wondering why those of you who are not VIP owners and have no intention of ever spending the money to be VIP owners keep continuing to post on this thread.


I can tell you why I am following this thread, even though I am in the “please don’t post” category you define above: changes to the VIP program can potentially impact availability for all owners. I have infrequently offered speculation in this thread about what might or might not be likely given Wyndham’s past actions. I can imagine a future in which I might do so again.

As an aside: I really enjoy the ignore feature here on TUG BBS. I have a number of frequent Wyndham forum posters on my ignore list (along with a few select others). It does sometimes make threads hard to follow, because I don’t see quotes from ignored users in others’ posts, but it contributes to my sanity in a big way.


----------



## chapjim

dgalati said:


> <snip> I wish I had a dislike button now as someone posted earlier.



That someone would have been me!


----------



## Jan M.

bnoble said:


> I can tell you why I am following this thread, even though I am in the “please don’t post” category you define above: changes to the VIP program can potentially impact availability for all owners. I have infrequently offered speculation in this thread about what might or might not be likely given Wyndham’s past actions. I can imagine a future in which I might do so again.
> 
> As an aside: I really enjoy the ignore feature here on TUG BBS. I have a number of frequent Wyndham forum posters on my ignore list (along with a few select others). It does sometimes make threads hard to follow, because I don’t see quotes from ignored users in others’ posts, but it contributes to my sanity in a big way.



I have always found your posts to be helpful and informative. And sometimes entertaining. I have never seen you using every possible thread to play games and abuse the purpose of TUG.

You, Ron and others had your work cut out for you in getting me to use CWP and CWS correctly back when I started posting. I'm sure there were other things I misspoke about and was corrected about them too. I've always appreciated the patience, that you and others took the time to teach me and that you were always polite in correcting me.


----------



## Baby Jane

Richelle said:


> I just saw they added a second page to their publication. Pretty much just repeats what we’ve already said about the name changes. Judging by the asterisks next to the unlimited housekeeping, it looks like new VIPs in all levels will not get unlimited housekeeping. I wasn’t sure if the unlimited HK was being taken away from just the lower levels or all levels.  Sounds like all levels will not have it?
> 
> https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf
> 
> View attachment 12126
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It says they do have unlimited housekeeping if you are already VIP


----------



## Richelle

Baby Jane said:


> It says they do have unlimited housekeeping if you are already VIP



I was referring to new VIPs after the changes take effect. I believe the elimination of unlimited housekeeping will be for all new VIPs in all levels. Not just the lower ones. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71

Richelle said:


> I was referring to new VIPs after the changes take effect. I believe the elimination of unlimited housekeeping will be for all new VIPs in all levels. Not just the lower ones.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



According to the Wyndham regional director I spoke with recently, Titanium will probably keep unlimited HKs and reservation transactions for new VIPs, but it may be the only level that keeps them.   He also said none of this is written in stone right now, except for the 60% discount - this one item has been decided and has been published as we already know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> According to the Wyndham regional director I spoke with recently, Titanium will probably keep unlimited HKs and reservation transactions for new VIPs, but it may be the only level that keeps them.   He also said none of this is written in stone right now, except for the 60% discount - this one item has been decided and has been published as we already know.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Key word nothing written in stone. Changes happen just roll with it.


----------



## Baby Jane

Richelle said:


> I was referring to new VIPs after the changes take effect. I believe the elimination of unlimited housekeeping will be for all new VIPs in all levels. Not just the lower ones.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The unlimited housekeeping and unlimited transactions are the 2 I would struggle with losing. We are platinum and I cancel stuff all the time. We also take a lot of weekend trips. Those I usually get discounted but am finding the full week trips or prime times are almost impossible to rebook. I am on several times a day but catching prime stuff is a crap shoot.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Baby Jane said:


> The unlimited housekeeping and unlimited transactions are the 2 I would struggle with losing. We are platinum and I cancel stuff all the time. We also take a lot of weekend trips. Those I usually get discounted but am finding the full week trips or prime times are almost impossible to rebook. I am on several times a day but catching prime stuff is a crap shoot.



Current understanding is that if you are VIP already you will be grandfathered with unlimited HK credits and reservation transactions (or whatever your current VIP level entitles you to).  


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## chapjim

Baby Jane said:


> The unlimited housekeeping and unlimited transactions are the 2 I would struggle with losing. We are platinum and I cancel stuff all the time. We also take a lot of weekend trips. Those I usually get discounted but am finding the full week trips or prime times are almost impossible to rebook. I am on several times a day but catching prime stuff is a crap shoot.



I've never really analyzed the effect of losing the benefit of unlimited HK credits.  

But as you do, when I have points to play with or when I need to cancel reservations to book something better, I go through transactions like popcorn.  I have fewer than 200K points (out of 4.7 million) for the rest of the year and only one reservation that doesn't have a guest's name on it so I can almost take the summer off as far as booking reservations is concerned.


----------



## Richelle

chapjim said:


> I've never really analyzed the effect of losing the benefit of unlimited HK credits.
> 
> But as you do, when I have points to play with or when I need to cancel reservations to book something better, I go through transactions like popcorn.  I have fewer than 200K points (out of 4.7 million) for the rest of the year and only one reservation that doesn't have a guest's name on it so I can almost take the summer off as far as booking reservations is concerned.



Since HK credits are refunded when you cancel a reservation, the only time I can see it having an affect, is when you take many short trips. People who take a lot of short trips go through them faster. When you have unlimited HK credits, there is the bonus of not having to keep track of those. We don’t know how they will be handling HK in the new system, other then they are changing it to “number if free cleans”. We don’t know how they will determine how many free cleans you get, or if they will make it the same for all. We don’t know how much it will cost if you run out of free cleans. All that is probably still being figured out. Someone was told it was $228 by a sales person. Since none of the sales reps I know, have any idea what it will be, I am 99.9999% sure that sales guy was lying about the $228. That would be an insane cost that very few would be willing to pay. Even if they did charge that, it would take a lot of cleans to make up for that $20k or more it cost them to go VIP. I always tell people VIP is “perceived” value. Not monetary. VIP will not give them much, if any, return on their money. What is boils down to is, how much perceived value does the buyer see and do they feel it’s worth spending that kind of money. Many of us here feel it was, and many here feel it does not.   I like free housekeep and unlimited reservations transactions. I also take full advantage of the extra time to roll points forward when I need to. I think the extra time would be hard for me to give up, more then the other two. Although, I would still be unhappy if I lost the other two.  I to cancel and rebook all the time. I book early. If there is inventory in the discount window, I book a new reservation at a discount and cancel the old one. I’ve done it a dozen times this past year.   It’s nice not to have to keep track of them or pay for more. 


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## Baby Jane

Oh I would miss that rollover too. Hope they never change that. the best thing they did for us owners was take away cancelled points. We used to dump into RCI every year and a few times we were hard pressed to use it. I much prefer rolling over to Wyndham although I did prefer the 3 years to use over depositing in a set year.


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## southwestmagnolia

Cyrus24 said:


> I know the sales weasels lie!!!  But when they share info without trying to sell me something, I get to where I can’t tell if they are really lying or are they just lost in the previous lies.
> 
> Went to an update today at Emerald Grande, Destin.  Update part was normal except for where the presenter mentioned the new VIP levels that were announced (apparently only to sales) on 5/1/19 effective in 2020.  In the individual meeting, I received a bit more detail.
> 300K for Emerald (15% in the discount window)
> 400K for Gold
> 700k for Platinum
> 1000K for Diamond
> 1400K for Titanium
> Our salesperson even pulled out the note they received and flashed it in front of our eyes.  It looked like it would be shared with Owners on 5/16/19.  I had already had a bit of a contentious conversation with the weasel and was unable to snap a picture of the letter.  I also was not given time to read any of the FAQs.
> 
> I am Gold so I asked about how this would impact me.
> - Would I now be 'new' Platinum?  Only if I bought 64K points.
> - Well, what about my current Gold benefits?  I’d be Grandfathered.
> - Are New Platinum VIP benefits, at the new lower point level the same benefits as current day Platinum owners?  Don’t know.
> 
> At this point we were lost in the weeds and the salesperson seemed lost as well.  We never saw an option for buying more points and were rushed off to gifting.  It was an odd ending to the update.   Unless they were just totally BSing us, we are going to start hearing and seeing more on this change.  Hopefully those attending update sessions in the coming days can gather a bit more info on this change.
> 
> Side note.  The part of our individual session that got contentious was when the salesperson tried to tell me I'd missed the open enrollment period earlier in the year.  What open enrollment period?  For what new benefits?  5 things I was told.  1. New Perks (I have perks),  2.  Club Pass changes (ie. 10 months for WorldMark reservations),  3. New Rewards Card (they wanted me to apply for a new Rewards card, I'm not doing that), 4.  Plus Partners (have that, never saw any value for using) and 5. WWE or World Wide Exchange (I never understood what this was about and I'm sure it's a scam of some sort).
> 
> I always enjoy reading about updates.  Thought I'd share this one, as odd as it was.  The breakfast was good, BTW.


----------



## southwestmagnolia

I also went to an update at emerald grand on May 13th.  I am PR and have a resale timeshare $175K points.  I was told that I should novate my resale and my original deed with Club Destin (85K) as they would not count towards the titanium level.  Since when does Wyndham novate resales.  Not sure I believed her.  Of course I would have to buy a 30K contract to reach the titanium level.  The benefit to me would be that at that level you can get a 75% discount on points 90 days out.  I could then use their Wyndham extra holidays to make money to pay off my maintenance fees and a monthly debt on new contract of $300.  I told them I am getting ready to retire and do not want any more debt.  The real reason is I never believe anything the sales folks say because I have been suckered for years.  I did however ask if they really were going to build a third tower at Emerald Grand and they are but still several years out.  The PR benefits are great at Emerald Grand, but they have made a big change.  They no longer cover the gratuities at the spa, so you have to pick up the 20% for any services.  Also, they are changing their prices in the upward direction at the spa starting at the beginning of the summer.  I am not sure if they still cover gratuities on golf or deep sea fishing but I would not be surprised if those have probably changed also.


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## Jan M.

southwestmagnolia said:


> Since when does Wyndham novate resales.



You aren't the first person who posted either here or on Facebook recently that a salesperson said that. There was a time when you used to be able to do that if you got in with the right salesperson, but Wyndham put a stop to that close to 10 years ago. As in fired on the spot. And Wyndham will cancel/undo a sale. Don't ever think they won't.

You also aren't the first person to say recently that they were talked to about renting to pay off your loan or maintenance fees. I thought they were forbidden to do that now. They are allowed to explain about Extra Holidays but that's it.

We all know that Wyndham largely ignores what the sales people say but I don't think Wyndham will be understanding about their salespeople breaking the rules they set.


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## HitchHiker71

Jan M. said:


> You aren't the first person who posted either here or on Facebook recently that as salesperson said that. There was a time when you used to be able to do that if you got in with the right salesperson, but Wyndham put a stop to that close to 10 years ago. As in fired on the spot. And Wyndham will cancel/undo a sale. Don't ever think they won't.
> 
> You also aren't the first person say recently that they were talked to about renting to pay off your loan or maintenance fees. I thought they were forbidden to do that now. They are allowed to explain about Extra Holidays but that's it.
> 
> We all know that Wyndham largely ignores what the sales people say but I don't think Wyndham will be understanding about their salespeople breaking rules the they set.



They spoke about rentals only in the context of EH here in St Thomas.  Both of the sales reps I spoke to said they are no longer allowed to speak about anything rental related except for EH.  


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## Manzana

chapjim said:


> I've never really analyzed the effect of losing the benefit of unlimited HK credits.
> 
> But as you do, when I have points to play with or when I need to cancel reservations to book something better, I go through transactions like popcorn.  I have fewer than 200K points (out of 4.7 million) for the rest of the year and only one reservation that doesn't have a guest's name on it so I can almost take the summer off as far as booking reservations is concerned.


I agree I have gone through 64 transactions in the month of May alone.  Even if all were done on the computer that is over $1200.00 in one month.  This is one of the biggest overlooked benefits I see in the VIP program. at 1.1 million points I would have 14 or 15 transactions if they rounded up.   This benefit alone allows me a perceived savings of at least $10,000 a year.


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## dgalati

Manzana said:


> I agree I have gone through 64 transactions in the month of May alone.  Even if all were done on the computer that is over $1200.00 in one month.  This is one of the biggest overlooked benefits I see in the VIP program. at 1.1 million points I would have 14 or 15 transactions if they rounded up.   This benefit alone allows me a perceived savings of at least $10,000 a year.





chapjim said:


> I've never really analyzed the effect of losing the benefit of unlimited HK credits.
> 
> But as you do, when I have points to play with or when I need to cancel reservations to book something better, I go through transactions like popcorn.  I have fewer than 200K points (out of 4.7 million) for the rest of the year and only one reservation that doesn't have a guest's name on it so I can almost take the summer off as far as booking reservations is concerned.



Wow sounds like a full time job booking all those vacations.


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## chapjim

dgalati said:


> Wow sounds like a full time job booking all those vacations.



It takes a lot more time than it used to.


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## dgalati

chapjim said:


> It takes a lot more time than it used to.


4.7 million points wow. How many of those do you use personally? With the option of booking at 50% off and the chance of room upgrades I bet your traveling full time when not booking vacations. LOL


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## chapjim

dgalati said:


> 4.7 million points wow. How many of those do you use personally? With the option of booking at 50% off and the chance of room upgrades I bet your traveling full time when not booking vacations. LOL



Believe it or not, I can actually book reservations while I'm on vacation.


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## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Believe it or not, I can actually book reservations while I'm on vacation.


Smart man, I always plan the next vacation while on vacation!


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## DancingWaters

Update at Smokey Mountain Lodge,
They will put 3 of our contracts in CWA and our maintenance fees won’t change. They will give us 126,000 points and we can use these to help pay our maintenance fees.   Hmm.......
We said we would have to see it on paper so they invited us back to see it written up in a contract.
I’m afraid we go back we will be suckered I to a bad deal.   What’s the catch that I don’t see?
I have 3 resale contracts they don’t want.


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## dgalati

DancingWaters said:


> Update at Smokey Mountain Lodge,
> They will put 3 of our contracts in CWA and our maintenance fees won’t change. They will give us 126,000 points and we can use these to help pay our maintenance fees.   Hmm.......
> We said we would have to see it on paper so they invited us back to see it written up in a contract.
> I’m afraid we go back we will be suckered I to a bad deal.   What’s the catch that I don’t see?
> I have 3 resale contracts they don’t want.


Run forest run!


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## HitchHiker71

DancingWaters said:


> Update at Smokey Mountain Lodge,
> They will put 3 of our contracts in CWA and our maintenance fees won’t change. They will give us 126,000 points and we can use these to help pay our maintenance fees.   Hmm.......
> We said we would have to see it on paper so they invited us back to see it written up in a contract.
> I’m afraid we go back we will be suckered I to a bad deal.   What’s the catch that I don’t see?
> I have 3 resale contracts they don’t want.



No way they will just “give” you 126k points for free.  Most likely those points will cost you around 20k best estimate.  Stay away from sales! 


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## DancingWaters

We never went back though they keep texting us.   Of course, none of it made sense at the time of the meeting.  Exactly, why would they give us 126,000 points at no cost,  it that’s what they said.  They did get us to fill out a form to upgrade our Wyndham reward credit card.  I’m going to call tomorrow to see if there is a yearly fee.  If there is a fee, I will cancel that new card and stick with the old one.   I have two rooms this week, a 4 bedroom presidential and a 2 bedroom deluxe.  No problems with the 4 bedroom. It the 2 bedroom was never finished being cleaned or prepped.   Almost no supplies and not clean.......quite the disappointment.


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## jwalk03

DancingWaters said:


> We never went back though they keep texting us.   Of course, none of it made sense at the time of the meeting.  Exactly, why would they give us 126,000 points at no cost,  it that’s what they said.  They did get us to fill out a form to upgrade our Wyndham reward credit card.  I’m going to call tomorrow to see if there is a yearly fee.  If there is a fee, I will cancel that new card and stick with the old one.   I have two rooms this week, a 4 bedroom presidential and a 2 bedroom deluxe.  No problems with the 4 bedroom. It the 2 bedroom was never finished being cleaned or prepped.   Almost no supplies and not clean.......quite the disappointment.



The upgraded card has a $75 annual fee


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## DancingWaters

Thanks, the upgraded card will be cancelled
We had the fire alarm go off after 11:00 pm last night.  We had 7 very young grandkids to help carry out.  After 15 minutes outside we went back in. Someone had been cleaning their oven.  This morning at 8:00 am the fire alarm went off again.  So we gathered everyone up and headed downstairs.  I guess this morning someone was frying bacon.  I was amazed how many non Wyndham people kept telling us we could go back in the building, uh no!!   We will get our information from a person with a Wyndham shirt on.


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## Jan M.

DancingWaters said:


> It the 2 bedroom was never finished being cleaned or prepped. Almost no supplies and not clean.......quite the disappointment.



I hope you let them know right away that the room hadn't been fully cleaned nor stocked. They should have sent housekeeping to take care of it. It does happen that units get cleared for use when they shouldn't have but in our experience the resorts have always taken care it when we notified the front desk. Unless the amount of cleaning that needs done is significant sometimes people prefer not to have housekeeping underfoot but when this has happened to us they weren't intrusive and were done quickly. 

We learned to take a close look around the unit to get a full list of what all is missing before we call. After one trip when we called four separate times, no bath towels in the master bath, no pillowcases in the second bedroom and no coffee filters. The coffee filters merited two calls when we still didn't have them after a couple of hours as no one in their right mind wants my husband to not have his morning coffee. We were embarrassed that we were calling repeatedly and decided to wait until the next day to call about what ever else was missing because it wasn't anything critical.


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## gottashiner

My parents went thru sales tour today at Grand desert.  I set my timer for 90 minutes & told salesman I had a timer. He had a paper on table that had different levels that were going into effect in 2020.  I should have taken a picture. It had a titanium level that he said was for 2million+.  It also had a 300,000 level. He said they didn’t know much about it yet but that hopefully it would fix some of the majors issues I have with changes to platinum ownership.  I was informed that I had asked for no solicitation so I wasn’t eligible for owners update. This cracked me up because I had not asked but I knew there was something on my account that kept me from being able to receive owners update.  Being an unhappy owner with changes & filing a claim with the Florida division that oversees Wyndham gets their attention!


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## Karjak

DancingWaters said:


> Thanks, the upgraded card will be cancelled
> We had the fire alarm go off after 11:00 pm last night.


We were there too! (Smokies) Alarm went off the next day, too. We also had a 4br PR and a 2br PR.
In our presentation we were told that we would be grandfathered into Titanium but we needed to buy 126k more points so we could rent them through EH to pay our Maintenance Fees. We declined..but were in presentation for almost 5 hours! We were also told we could get our 50% discount just by calling within the 60 day window. Great! No more double reservations, cancel, and re-book! Yeah, right... we bought swampland in Florida instead. 

Now we are at Wyndham Nashville. Now we are told we have to buy more points to get Titanium (we have over 1.4k). We almost fell for it. We did apply for upgraded WR Visa. Guess I’ll have to cancel that, too.


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## AnthonyTraveller

Hi Everyone, I am new to this forum, so forgive me if I repeat any questions that may have been addressed before.

Really appreciate any help in advance, Does anyone know the answers to the following:

1. Will PIC points count towards the new Privileges levels?  (right now I have 2 3-bedrooms which enables me to reach Platinum status under the current program using PIC points, but I don't know if the new Privileges will be the same)

2. My fiancée owns with Wyndham as well, and once we get married we would collectively have enough points to be Titanium but does Wyndham allow couples to consolidate and achieve a higher level status (e.g., I have 1MM points ...half of which are PIC, and she has about 500k points)?

3. I rent out points periodically, and someone told me that Wyndham can block "renters" from purchasing additional developer inventory?  What happens if you are get blocked....is there any way to get additional developer inventory?  

4. Does wyndham club select limit the number of contracts you can have one account?  If so, how many?  What happens if you purchase resale and go over that limit?

5. Is there any rule that says you can't rent points (I was told, like many here, that you could, but I don't know the bylaws)?

6. Has Wyndham blocked peoples accounts for renting points (I saw posts saying they are blocking for "stripping" points from contracts in the past, but does wyndham block accounts for just making tons of regular reservations?)

Thanks in advance for any answers 

Anthony


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## AnthonyTraveller

dgalati said:


> Smart man, I always plan the next vacation while on vacation!




Hi Dgalati,

I think I saw somewhere you mentioned that Wyndham banned you from purchasing more developer points?  Does that mean you are now prohibited from obtaining Titanium status?  Do you have any recourse or means of still getting it?


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## dgalati

No plans on buying developer points let alone buying all the way up to titanium. At a owner update sales told me they couldn't sell me if they wanted to. Was at Midtown 45 last week and they tried fo sell me?


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## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> No plans on buying developer points let alone buying all the way up to titanium. At a owner update sales told me they couldn't sell me if they wanted to. Was at Midtown 45 last week and they tried fo sell me?



If you are attending updates you by definition are not on the “do not sell” list, which prohibits sales from interacting with you in entirety.  


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## dgalati

They also have a DO NOT Invite list . My Uncles on it and he is VIP.  When we travel together I get asked to attend and they find out he is a VIP they initially invite him but after looking up his info they find out he is on the DNI list. Very comical to watch them back track on why he is not able to attend being a VIP and me being able to as resale buyer. Sales at Bonnet Creek said I did have a open case with Wyndham on a use year alignment that was why they could not sell me. Not sure how much truth to that statement but believe the salesman was not going to waste time selling me after looking at my resale purchases.


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## chapjim

dgalati said:


> They also have a DO NOT Invite list . My Uncles on it and he is VIP.  When we travel together I get asked to attend and they find out he is a VIP they initially invite him but after looking up his info they find out he is on the DNI list. Very comical to watch them back track on why he is not able to attend being a VIP and me being able to as resale buyer. Sales at Bonnet Creek said I did have a open case with Wyndham on a use year alignment that was why they could not sell me. Not sure how much truth to that statement but believe the salesman was not going to waste time selling me after looking at my resale purchases.



No worries.  You can always rent from a VIP.  Ooops!  Sorry!  That's your line.


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## jules54

I also I'm on the do not tour list. Last summer I went to several Wyndham's and a couple of resorts had to backtrack. No more freebies for me I'm sad


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## Sandi Bo

jules54 said:


> I also I'm on the do not tour list. Last summer I went to several Wyndham's and a couple of resorts had to backtrack. No more freebies for me I'm sad


But it is so nice to enjoy my vacations, hassle free.  Worth it, for sure, for me!


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## chapjim

Sandi Bo said:


> But it is so nice to enjoy my vacations, hassle free.  Worth it, for sure, for me!



I agree 100%.  Attending a "presentation" was a lousy way to spend the first morning of a vacation.


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## dgalati

chapjim said:


> I agree 100%.  Attending a "presentation" was a lousy way to spend the first morning of a vacation.


Yes I agree. They just don't take no for a answer. High pressure sales at check in to hear presentation or what ever they choose to call it. Now it was 1/2 hour give your opinion and feed back which turned into a sales pitch.


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## Richelle

AnthonyTraveller said:


> Hi Everyone, I am new to this forum, so forgive me if I repeat any questions that may have been addressed before.
> 
> Really appreciate any help in advance, Does anyone know the answers to the following:
> 
> 1. Will PIC points count towards the new Privileges levels?  (right now I have 2 3-bedrooms which enables me to reach Platinum status under the current program using PIC points, but I don't know if the new Privileges will be the same)
> 
> 2. My fiancée owns with Wyndham as well, and once we get married we would collectively have enough points to be Titanium but does Wyndham allow couples to consolidate and achieve a higher level status (e.g., I have 1MM points ...half of which are PIC, and she has about 500k points)?
> 
> 3. I rent out points periodically, and someone told me that Wyndham can block "renters" from purchasing additional developer inventory?  What happens if you are get blocked....is there any way to get additional developer inventory?
> 
> 4. Does wyndham club select limit the number of contracts you can have one account?  If so, how many?  What happens if you purchase resale and go over that limit?
> 
> 5. Is there any rule that says you can't rent points (I was told, like many here, that you could, but I don't know the bylaws)?
> 
> 6. Has Wyndham blocked peoples accounts for renting points (I saw posts saying they are blocking for "stripping" points from contracts in the past, but does wyndham block accounts for just making tons of regular reservations?)
> 
> Thanks in advance for any answers
> 
> Anthony



I’ll do my best to answer. 

1. There are no plans to do away with PIC or keep them from counting towards VIP on the new program, as far as we can see.  I don’t see why they would, unless to many people were getting cheap VIP and they needed to curb it. I doubt it though. PIC gives them another revenue stream for their rental income. They take our deposits to book reservations within RCI to rent them out. Even if they did take it away, we would be grandfathered in to the old rules. There are some people who enrolled PICs before they limited it to 2. They can enroll as many as they want with a retail purchase to this day. 

2. Yes they do. Plenty of people have merged accounts. However, if your fiancé has PICs, you may need to adjust, because you’re only allowed two (unless you enrolled a PIC before 2005). However, they may allow you to keep them. That’s up to the PIC department. I wouldn’t mention it. Let them figure it out. Have a plan on which one you will cut, if they require you to cut one or more, but let them tell you to choose. Don’t offer it.  In order to combine your accounts, you both have to have at least one shared contract that you both are on. It would be good housekeeping to have both of you on all the contracts, but you two can decide what’s best for you.  If either of you has a CWA contract, that would be the easiest to add someone to, because there is no deed to record. Just a membership form. Wyndham title can help with that. Once you have gotten both your names on at least one contract, you can ask them to combine your accounts. You will have one member number with all the contracts. You can decide which member number to keep. I suggest whichever one of you has their member number memorized, you keep that number. Again, you guys do what’s best for you. 


3. I heard that too. If it happens, just reach out to Owner Care and ask what they can do. You may have to prove you were just renting to friends and family or agree to stop doing it. If you reach Titanium however, there is no real reason to buy more developer. Just buy resale. Last I heard, people who were blocked from buying retail, could still acquire points on the resale market.  If you are buying points with the intent to rent out, I wouldn’t unless you plan on making it your full time job. Eventually Wyndham will catch on and they could shut you down. That’s why most vacation rental companies rent multiple systems. Or they advertise other people’s rentals for them and take a cut. 

4. You are only allowed to have so many contracts under one member number. Once you hit that limit, they open a new account for you. You will not be able to combine the points under two separate member numbers to make reservations. So you have to book under two separate accounts. At one point, I heard someone had 40, but that was prior to the new system launch. Another person said it was 20. I have 9 when you account for the PIC contracts. 

5.  There is something in the directory about the system being for personal use only and not for commercial purposes. I would have to look that up to see where. I believe it’s in the contract to. 

6. During the Great Audit of 2016-2017, there were a few mega renters that got kicked out for reasons I won’t rehash, but it wasn’t just about the renting. My guess is, they can choose to kick you out, if they suspect you’re using the program for commercial renting.  Just because they can, doesn’t mean they will. However, I would stick to renting to friends and family and forget about trying to make it a business. Too many risks. If you get kicked out of the program, you will still be able to use your deeded points, but only at the resorts they are deeded to. Club Wyndham Plus is an exchange program. If you get kicked out of the exchange program, you cannot exchange your points to stay at another resort. I’m not sure how CWA would work since there is no deed involved. At least with deeds, they have to go through legal channels to take those away. They likely won’t if it’s not a foreclosure. They just won’t let you use your points outside your home resort. 


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## Braindead

dgalati said:


> They also have a DO NOT Invite list . My Uncles on it and he is VIP.  When we travel together I get asked to attend and they find out he is a VIP they initially invite him but after looking up his info they find out he is on the DNI list. Very comical to watch them back track on why he is not able to attend being a VIP and me being able to as resale buyer. Sales at Bonnet Creek said I did have a open case with Wyndham on a use year alignment that was why they could not sell me. Not sure how much truth to that statement but believe the salesman was not going to waste time selling me after looking at my resale purchases.


I can’t imagine why your uncle doesn’t want to share an account with you so you don’t have to rent from a VIP!!


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## dgalati

Braindead said:


> I can’t imagine why your uncle doesn’t want to share an account with you so you don’t have to rent from a VIP!!


I have a Ideal, Instead of me renting from a VIP maybe you can gift them to me? LOL


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## steve_solo

In Williamsburg this week the concierge told me that they were restoring the old credit pool in 2020 that was in place a couple of years ago.
He was trying to convince me to attend the update, which failed on his part.
So he may have been lying thru his teeth.
Has anyone else heard this in an update? I didn't see it in this thread.


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## HitchHiker71

steve_solo said:


> In Williamsburg this week the concierge told me that they were restoring the old credit pool in 2020 that was in place a couple of years ago.
> He was trying to convince me to attend the update, which failed on his part.
> So he may have been lying thru his teeth.
> Has anyone else heard this in an update? I didn't see it in this thread.



I have not heard anything about restoring the credit pool for my part.  


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## Richelle

steve_solo said:


> In Williamsburg this week the concierge told me that they were restoring the old credit pool in 2020 that was in place a couple of years ago.
> He was trying to convince me to attend the update, which failed on his part.
> So he may have been lying thru his teeth.
> Has anyone else heard this in an update? I didn't see it in this thread.



I have not heard.  Had you mentioned anything about the credit pool to him.  Or the points deposit feature?


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## steve_solo

I had not mentioned points deposit or the credit pool. He was desperately trying to entice me into attending an update.
Since they preface everything as "proposed", they have open season making up anything they want to just to catch more suckers.
He did say that Wyndham had received a lot of negative feedback since removing the old credit pool and they were going to respond.
We shall see.


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## bnoble

steve_solo said:


> He did say that Wyndham had received a lot of negative feedback since removing the old credit pool and they were going to respond


I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm going to guess that the person trying to qualify tour prospects doesn't have a seat at the table setting strategic direction for the Trust.


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## Richelle

steve_solo said:


> I had not mentioned points deposit or the credit pool. He was desperately trying to entice me into attending an update.
> Since they preface everything as "proposed", they have open season making up anything they want to just to catch more suckers.
> He did say that Wyndham had received a lot of negative feedback since removing the old credit pool and they were going to respond.
> We shall see.



The chances of them bringing back the credit pool, is just about as likely as them bringing back cancel rebook. That’s what I would have told him, but I guess anything is possible. It would be nice if they did though. Having three years to use the points, came in handy for the years we could not vacation as much. We’ve never had to rent out points because of the credit pool. Every 3 years or so, we did a big family vacation, so we used the extra points we had to book extra rooms. We still do, so we can roll points forward to that year, but if one of those big trips got canceled, or we needed the points, we were out of luck.


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## HitchHiker71

Richelle said:


> The chances of them bringing back the credit pool, is just about as likely as them bringing back cancel rebook. That’s what I would have told him, but I guess anything is possible. It would be nice if they did though. Having three years to use the points, came in handy for the years we could not vacation as much. We’ve never had to rent out points because of the credit pool. Every 3 years or so, we did a big family vacation, so we used the extra points we had to book extra rooms. We still do, so we can roll points forward to that year, but if one of those big trips got canceled, or we needed the points, we were out of luck.



Makes me wonder aloud if Wyndham is realizing that by restricting the ability to transfer points into the credit pool previously versus the current policy has actually _encouraged _VIPs to rent out their points - and at a higher price point than what the Extra Vacations program offers to owners - which creates competition between Wyndham owners vs Wyndham Vacation Rentals for timeshare rentals.  Obviously some folks had figured out how to abuse the credit pool which is why they ended up restricting it to what is in place today - so they will have to find a middle ground that allows current Wyndham owners to bank points, while discouraging frequent owner based rentals, and while protecting against systemic abuses.  It will be interesting to see what if anything happens in this regard.


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## Richelle

HitchHiker71 said:


> Makes me wonder aloud if Wyndham is realizing that by restricting the ability to transfer points into the credit pool previously versus the current policy has actually _encouraged _VIPs to rent out their points - and at a higher price point than what the Extra Vacations program offers to owners - which creates competition between Wyndham owners vs Wyndham Vacation Rentals for timeshare rentals.  Obviously some folks had figured out how to abuse the credit pool which is why they ended up restricting it to what is in place today - so they will have to find a middle ground that allows current Wyndham owners to bank points, while discouraging frequent owner based rentals.  It will be interesting to see what if anything happens in this regard.



I agree. Again, thinking out loud, they could allow owners to roll points over twice. So if I roll this years points over to next year, they afford me one additional opportunity to roll them over again if I cannot use them. Maybe at a higher or extra fee. This way, it extends the time they have to use them, but the owner has to actually initiate the transfer. Not all owners would take advantage of that option or may forget to do it.  So I don’t think it would have a huge impact, allowing owners one more chance to move the same points forward. It is like credit pooling, except that the owner has to move them twice rather then let them sit there in a single bucket for three years. Also, the points would only be good for two years. When you credit pooled, they were good three years from the time you credit pooled. For VIPs that had extra time to credit pool points, they would get an extra few months to a year of usage by waiting until their deadline to credit pool. Also, with the credit pool, you didn’t have to wait until the next year to use them. You could use them immediately. With the option I suggest, the owners couldn’t use them that year unless the reservation was made within 90 days or less. So there would be some benefits to the owners without allowing people to abuse the system. 

Of course, they could stop the selling of stripped contracts by denying the transfer or requiring the original owner to pay the maintenance fees for the years that points are not available. That would make it harder to abuse the system if they did bring back credit pool. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davejulien

I may be in the minority but I like the new deposit feature better than the old credit pool.

Every year we don't use all our points and I end up moving a small amount forward.

With the old credit pool it was frustrating to me for these reasons: 
1) You had to use up your RUY points before you could get to the credit pool points.  This had me doing fake bookings, booking again with credit pool, and then canceling my fake bookings.  Paying for reservation transactions to do this and then cancel would get pricey unless you are VIP like I am.
2) With the old credit pool I had MANY buckets of points with staggering end dates.  If you put points to the credit pool more than once each year it was made worse with more buckets and more end dates.  I had to always get creative trying to reach all the points in the various buckets.
3) If you didn't use your credit pool points at the end of 3 years there was no way to move them forward again.  So, again, you are always forced to try to use your credit pool points first but Wyndham didn't default to this within 10 months.

This is what I like about the new deposit feature:
1) The points are in your RUY points and there is no distinction between pooled and not.  This makes the points easy to understand.  The number of points you own can be used for ARP.  Anything above cannot.  Again, easy to understand.
2) You can deposit to the future for as many points as you own each year.  As long as you use a good majority of your points each year there isn't any issue.
3) The points always align with your current use year.  So much easier than all the buckets.
4) If you run out of points for the year you can always borrow from the future which may include points that were previously deposited.  So you can always bring them back to the current year if you need to.  This, in a way, allows the points to be used for 2 years.

I think with the old credit pool people would say Wyndham was fair and gave me 3 years to use the points.  With the new way people don't say that.  Seems to me with the old way people are more likely to lose points just because of the management issues stated above.  They don't complain because they think Wyndham is being fair.  In reality the old way just seemed to create confusion and complexity when it's not needed.

I've yet to understand why people liked the old way better.  If I'm using and moving points forward each year anyway what difference does it make?  My preference is the way it is now considering it's easier to manage.


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## CO skier

HitchHiker71 said:


> Makes me wonder aloud if Wyndham is realizing that by restricting the ability to transfer points into the credit pool previously versus the current policy has actually _encouraged _VIPs to rent out their points - and at a higher price point than what the Extra Vacations program offers to owners - which creates competition between Wyndham owners vs Wyndham Vacation Rentals for timeshare rentals.


I do not see how anything has changed.  Deposit points to RCI, or book and deposit to Extra Holidays, or deposit to a future use year.  The only thing that has changed is having to select the use year for deposited points, which creates an audit trail that can actually be followed.




HitchHiker71 said:


> Obviously some folks had figured out how to abuse the credit pool which is why they ended up restricting it to what is in place today - so they will have to find a middle ground that allows current Wyndham owners to bank points, while discouraging frequent owner based rentals, and while protecting against systemic abuses.


I think this is exactly what the current points deposit feature achieves.​


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## HitchHiker71

CO skier said:


> I do not see how anything has changed.  Deposit points to RCI, or book and deposit to Extra Holidays, or deposit to a future use year.  The only thing that has changed is having to select the use year for deposited points, which creates an audit trail that can actually be followed.
> 
> I think this is exactly what the current points deposit feature achieves.​



I cannot comment from experience as I'm an owner effective July 2018 and therefore the whole "credit pool" function pre-dates me in entirety.  From what Richelle posted, it seems like the only missing option is the ability to use the points for up to three years.  She suggested that if they allowed points transfers into future use years twice in a row, this would effectively solve this "problem" when compared to the old credit pool days.  I really appreciated @davejulien posting as it really helped to better understand the differences.  When Michael Brown sent the email introducing the entire Privileges program, he specifically used the word simplified IIRC.  Overall it seems like the current points deposit feature is easier to use than the older credit pool feature, so I will be surprised if Wyndham implements anything that is more complex when it comes to future us year points management.


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## Richelle

davejulien said:


> I've yet to understand why people liked the old way better.  If I'm using and moving points forward each year anyway what difference does it make?  My preference is the way it is now considering it's easier to manage.



You make excellent points regarding the shortcomings of the credit poll and the confusion it creates. The difference is (with the credit pool), I could use the points any time.  As you know, currently you can only borrow from next year, if you are booking within the express window. With the credit pool, I could use them on the standard booking window, allowing me to book further out. 

One credit pool shortcoming you left out was, you had to move the points into the credit pool before use year. Now you have 3 months to decide. However, if you move them, you lose ARP on those points (just like credit pool), you cannot move them forward again if plans change or life happens and you cannot vacation that year. Of course if you move them in March and decide in April you want to book a trip, you had to wait until 90 days out and hope they have the room size you need still available. Both systems have short comings. I hope they come up with a better solution. Allowing people to move points forward a second time, would be a big improvement. 


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## Cyrus24

It's no secret that I loved the Credit Pool.  And, I used it as Wyndham intended, I pooled the points and used them at a date during or after my regular use year.  I DID NOT STRIP CONTRACTS and then sell them as some others did.  Now that the MegaRenters are mostly gone and that the points in individual Credit Pools are starting to be fully used, it's time for Wyndham to bring back a popular (and usable) system.  Wyndham could fix the stripping issue by not allowing people the option of pooling future year points.  
- Non-VIP's would be able to pool current UY points during the first 3 months of the UY
- Silver would be able to pool current UY points during the first 6 months of the UY
- Gold would be able to pool current UY points during the first 9 months of the UY
- Platinum would be able to pool current UY points at any time during the UY
If Wyndham does not want to allow pooling for 3 years into the future, go with 2 years.  Just bring the pool back!!!  I hate the Points Deposit 'Feature'.  A flexible pool is much more valuable than a rigid 'feature'.


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## kaljor

Aren't we forgetting something in this discussion?  I was not a member when the Credit Pool system was in effect but I was an avid reader of this forum.  Didn't the credit pool system allow you to pool 2 future years so that you could use three years of points in the current year?  And isn't that really what triggered the audits and the subsequent changes to the Wyndham system in 2017?  Namely the fact that Wyndham essentially lost track of the tens (or hundreds) of millions of points that were pooled and how and when they were used.


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## paxsarah

Sure, but there’s no reason that a modified reinstated credit pool couldn’t be limited to the current use year’s points only. As well as starting and ending on the dates of the use year (because I completely understand Wyndham’s desire to standardize those dates to the use year and not have 365 possible start and end dates).

I don’t expect them to do it, but they could do it within newer, slightly more restrictive parameters if they wanted to.


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## davejulien

My biggest issues with the credit pool is you had to go through your RUY points before you could get to the credit pool.  Then you could only put them in the credit pool once.  So if you are like me and bought a close number of points you would use every year you find yourself stuck with points that are difficult to get to.  So now you have to do fake bookings just to get to the pool.  Don’t get to the pool and you lose them.  Money down the drain.

Perhaps it caters more to those with lower points who every few years want to take a larger vacation.  For this I see it working well.  Those of us that are VIP and get several discounts just end up with more points to pool having to work to get at them.  With the staggering dates it’s just too complex.


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## am1

kaljor said:


> Aren't we forgetting something in this discussion?  I was not a member when the Credit Pool system was in effect but I was an avid reader of this forum.  Didn't the credit pool system allow you to pool 2 future years so that you could use three years of points in the current year?  And isn't that really what triggered the audits and the subsequent changes to the Wyndham system in 2017?  Namely the fact that Wyndham essentially lost track of the tens (or hundreds) of millions of points that were pooled and how and when they were used.



Maybe most people think that but no.  Part of the problem yes.


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## Cyrus24

davejulien said:


> My biggest issues with the credit pool is you had to go through your RUY points before you could get to the credit pool. Then you could only put them in the credit pool once. So if you are like me and bought a close number of points you would use every year you find yourself stuck with points that are difficult to get to. So now you have to do fake bookings just to get to the pool. Don’t get to the pool and you lose them. Money down the drain.


I'm sorry to disagree, but, this is more of a problem with the deposit 'feature' as the deposit feature uses the same last day of the selected 'deposit to' year.  With the Credit pool, the date was 3 years from the date of the pooling.  Unless you pooled your points on the very last day of a use year period, pooled points would be used before RUY points.  Also, you referenced that the issue you had was with ALL the UY periods in your account.  Most owners have 1, maybe 2 UY's during a calendar year.  If Wyndham could ever get everyone aligned on 1 UY, the problem of ALL the different UY buckets would go away.  I'm VIPG and had no trouble using the credit pool, none at all.  But, I only have 1 UY, thankfully.


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## Sandy VDH

I used to pool credits always.  I thought it was very generous of Wyndham to give us 3 years to use the points with NO real restriction on using them during Standard Reservation Season.  So no ARP but it has been a few years since I even used a RARP let along an ARP.  Not in my standard usage of points wheelhouse of options. 

I am nearly finished using up the last 325K that was in the pool.  I am having to play with Temporary reservation in order to tie up my regular 2019 UY points so that I use up my May 2020 expiring Previously Pooled points stash.  

So I have not yet used this new deposit feature.  Once deposited, I assume it no longer has 2 buckets of points categories.  It just has a total number of points used, where one is the deposited total and one is the RUY total.  As long as I use up the total amount of points that I deposited in any combination of reservations it will basically work itself out.  I should NO LONGER be worried that I am using the "right" points.  

I recently had to shuffle HGVC reservations for this very reason.  It assigns points to a reservation.  I wanted to shuffle those points around and use Saved (our version of deposited) points on a confirmed reservation and use RUY on a reservation I was not 100% sure I would use.  I ended up having to cancel both reservations.  Rebook the confirmed reservation first to use up the saved points then rebook the remaining reservation that I was not yet 100% confirmed.  PITA to do this, and all the while worried I would lose out on a reservation.  It did work out, but I would be happy if Wyndham has eliminated all of the using the "right" points issues.


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## bnoble

Sandy VDH said:


> I should NO LONGER be worried that I am using the "right" points.


That's correct---insofar as I understand anything.


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## Cyrus24

Sandy VDH said:


> I should NO LONGER be worried that I am using the "right" points.


  I would still be worried.  If you use all (or most of) your 2020 points for ARP reservations (or other items that can only be done with RUY points) and had deposited points in your 2020 bucket, you'll potentially be sitting with points at the end of 2020 that can't be rolled forward.  

Example.  Let's assume you start 2020 with 1.5MM points, 1MM as RUY points and .5MM as deposited points.  Then you book .7MM points during ARP periods and deposit .3MM points to RCI.  You've now used up 1MM points that could only be used from the RUY points.  If you try to deposit the .5MM points still in the UY, I'm guessing that you will be denied.  Logic, the benefits for the RUY 1MM points were are all used up, you have no points available with RUY benefits available to deposited.  You can't deposit points (the .5MM) that have been previously deposited.

Example 2.  Same assumptions, 1.5MM points.  You use .5MM for ARP reservations and use .5MM for Standard/Express reservations, you still have .5MM points with full RUY benefits.  You could deposit those to 2021 or 2022.  

I'd worry about points deposited from prior years if I did mostly ARP reservations.  And until it actually happens to someone that actively follows TUG, we're not going to know about it.


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## davejulien

Cyrus24 said:


> I'm sorry to disagree, but, this is more of a problem with the deposit 'feature' as the deposit feature uses the same last day of the selected 'deposit to' year.



You disagree but there is no problem with the deposit feature.  You do know you can deposit forward the number of points you own each year right?  I have 1m points.  If I don’t use any points one year I can easily move them to the next year or even do 2 deposits.  500k for next year and 500k for the year after.  For those next 2 years even if I use only 500k points I can move the remaining 1m points forward yet again.  Just not much to think about.  No buckets and no funny temporary bookings to get at the points.  Nothing.  Just use them.  Easy.

Sounds like you think you can’t roll over your deposited points to the next year like the credit pool.  That is not the case and is a common misconception.  The rule is each year you can move as many points as you own.  They refer to this as your “benefit”.  They didn’t explain this well and I didn’t understand totally until I spoke with someone in Owner Services one day.



Cyrus24 said:


> With the Credit pool, the date was 3 years from the date of the pooling.  Unless you pooled your points on the very last day of a use year period, pooled points would be used before RUY points.  Also, you referenced that the issue you had was with ALL the UY periods in your account.  Most owners have 1, maybe 2 UY's during a calendar year.  If Wyndham could ever get everyone aligned on 1 UY, the problem of ALL the different UY buckets would go away.  I'm VIPG and had no trouble using the credit pool, none at all.  But, I only have 1 UY, thankfully.



I’ll just say that when the new system started I had at least 8 buckets with points in them.  It took several months of booking my RUY points, booking my credit pool points, and then cancelling.  It was a major PITA.  In fact when I called and spoke with Owner Services about some other subject the lady made comment that I did a very good “clean up job” on these buckets.  Her comment pretty indicated to me that many people were having problems doing cleanup.  If you are not VIPG or higher then temporary bookings will cost you to straighten this mess out.  If you are VIPG or higher then at least you stand a chance at getting back on course without breaking the bank.


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## Sandy VDH

Cyrus24 said:


> I would still be worried.  If you use all (or most of) your 2020 points for ARP reservations (or other items that can only be done with RUY points) and had deposited points in your 2020 bucket, you'll potentially be sitting with points at the end of 2020 that can't be rolled forward.



Since I have not done an ARP reservation in over 5 years I am sure I am just fine.


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## davejulien

Cyrus24 said:


> I would still be worried.  If you use all (or most of) your 2020 points for ARP reservations (or other items that can only be done with RUY points) and had deposited points in your 2020 bucket, you'll potentially be sitting with points at the end of 2020 that can't be rolled forward.



What you are describing is a common misconception coming from the old credit pool.  The rule is you can deposit as many points as you own into the next year or 2 years forward.  This is considered your “benefit”.  Even if you used all your points with ARP you can move any remaining points up to the number of points you own forward.  Easy.


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## davejulien

Sandy VDH said:


> Since I have not done an ARP reservation in over 5 years I am sure I am just fine.  If you ARP and Saved and booked nothing else, then of course you will have an issue.



ARP has nothing to do with the new deposit feature.  Each year you can move as many points forward as you own.


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## Sandy VDH

davejulien said:


> ARP has nothing to do with the new deposit feature.  Each year you can move as many points forward as you own.



I corrected my post, likely as you were typing this one.


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## davejulien

Sandy VDH said:


> I corrected my post, likely as you were typing this one.



I just wish Wyndham did a better job of explaining the deposit feature.  So many people are confused.  I was one of them for at least 6 months into the new system.  This new way is so much better.  The people wanting the credit pool back I think just don’t understand what was changed and why it simplifies and works better.


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## Sandy VDH

davejulien said:


> I just wish Wyndham did a better job of explaining the deposit feature.  So many people are confused.  I was one of them for at least 6 months into the new system.  This new way is so much better.  The people wanting the credit pool back I think just don’t understand what was changed and why it simplifies and works better.



Like I said in the first place, I am happy not to have to use the "right" points.


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## Cyrus24

davejulien said:


> What you are describing is a common misconception coming from the old credit pool.  The rule is you can deposit as many points as you own into the next year or 2 years forward.  This is considered your “benefit”.  Even if you used all your points with ARP you can move any remaining points up to the number of points you own forward.  Easy.


How do you know that to be true?  Did you test it?  Just asking.  The system knows how you use your points for a given UY, and points in your buckets have benefits.  You can't use deposited points for ARP, only UY points.  If you use all your UY points for ARP, you will have deposited points still sitting there and, if not used, can't be redeposited.  I rarely book using ARP, so I will have no issues.  On 9/30, if I have points, they will have full benefits.

It's probably time for a moderator to open up a new thread for the pros/cons of the deposit 'feature'.  At some point, there will either be an issue with a redeposit or a test to prove one of the many opinions.


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## davejulien

Cyrus24 said:


> How do you know that to be true?  Did you test it?



It's true.  I've done it for the past 2 years.



Cyrus24 said:


> If you use all your UY points for ARP, you will have deposited points still sitting there and, if not used, can't be redeposited.



Again, you are stuck in old credit pool mentality.  It's hard to break it!  Took me a while.  There is no distinction between deposited points and RUY points from a depositing perspective.  You can deposit forward the number of points you own each year.  This is considered your "benefit".  Call Owner Services and they will explain it to you.



Cyrus24 said:


> It's probably time for a moderator to open up a new thread for the pros/cons of the deposit 'feature'.



This whole thread has been hijacked.


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## Cyrus24

Go to First Unread


davejulien said:


> It's true. I've done it for the past 2 years.


So, you are saying you used the deposit 'feature' to move points from 2017/2018 into 2018/2019.  And, then you are telling us that you used 100% of your RUY points during 2018/2019 for ARP/RARP reservations?  ALL OF THEM.  And then were still able to deposit points left over from deposits you made in 2017 or 2018 points into future years 2019 or 2020.  All this while you were having to create fake reservations to use up credit pool points (your words).  I find that scenario very hard to believe.  Especially the 100% ARP reservations part, people with Platinum accounts the size of yours don't do 100% ARP reservations.  Too many options for rebooking at discounts to do something like that.  

RUY points have benefits; ARP, deposit, RCI, RARP, etc.  You can't use RUY points for ARP and then expect to use previously deposited points for something outside what they are allowed to be used for.  They system knows how you are using your points, it's not going to let you redeposit previously deposited points.  And, THIS is what owner care told me.


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## paxsarah

Cyrus24 said:


> You can't use deposited points for ARP, only UY points.



I’m fairly certain this is incorrect because although I didn’t have deposited points yet, once the new system was in place I was able to use legacy credit pooled points for ARP (which as we all know was impossible under the old system). My sense is that for purposes of ARP, the current system doesn’t make any distinction at all regarding the origin of the points.


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## Cyrus24

paxsarah said:


> I’m fairly certain this is incorrect because although I didn’t have deposited points yet, once the new system was in place I was able to use legacy credit pooled points for ARP (which as we all know was impossible under the old system). My sense is that for purposes of ARP, the current system doesn’t make any distinction at all regarding the origin of the points.


I'm just saying that I was told that the system does make the distinction.  In the background, it knows.  My point is that everyone needs to BE CAREFUL, the deposit 'feature' is still an unknown.


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## bnoble

Told by whom?

Plenty of people have confirmed that the notion of "kinds" of points no longer exists. It's been around long enough that people have tested it. The updated program documents, as I read them, suggest this as well. I'm sure there are still plenty of Wyndham employees that don't fully understand how the "new" system works--and it's really not all that new anymore.


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## davejulien

Cyrus24 said:


> So, you are saying you used the deposit 'feature' to move points from 2017/2018 into 2018/2019.  And, then you are telling us that you used 100% of your RUY points during 2018/2019 for ARP/RARP reservations?  ALL OF THEM.  And then were still able to deposit points left over from deposits you made in 2017 or 2018 points into future years 2019 or 2020.  All this while you were having to create fake reservations to use up credit pool points (your words).  I find that scenario very hard to believe.  Especially the 100% ARP reservations part, people with Platinum accounts the size of yours don't do 100% ARP reservations.  Too many options for rebooking at discounts to do something like that.



You can believe what you want.  If you don't believe me call and talk to Owner Services.  You call the reservation line and say "may I please speak with someone in Owner Services".  You will then be transferred.

After you talk to them then let's continue this discussion.  Right now I'm not going to continue repeating myself.  What I say is absolutely true and factual information.


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## Cyrus24

bnoble said:


> Told by whom?
> 
> Plenty of people have confirmed that the notion of "kinds" of points no longer exists. It's been around long enough that people have tested it. The updated program documents, as I read them, suggest this as well. I'm sure there are still plenty of Wyndham employees that don't fully understand how the "new" system works--and it's really not all that new anymore.


Owner Care.  And, yes, there is plenty of ignorance out there with Owner Care Reps.  I don't think that anyone has definitively confirmed that 'kinds' of point no longer exist.  I read a lot of noise, but, I've seen no actual facts from testing.


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## Cyrus24

davejulien said:


> You can believe what you want. If you don't believe me call and talk to Owner Services. You call the reservation line and say "may I please speak with someone in Owner Services". You will then be transferred.
> 
> After you talk to them then let's continue this discussion. Right now I'm not going to continue repeating myself. What I say is absolutely true and factual information.


Don't talk down to me, I'm entitled to an opinion.  If you have FACTS, lay them out.


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## Cyrus24

Points Deposit Feature
The Points Deposit Feature allows you to deposit all, or a portion, of your *current Use Year’s Points* into a future Use Year. You may deposit your points into your next Use Year or two Use Years from the deposit date. *Once deposited these points may only be used to book Standard and Express reservations at eligible CLUB WYNDHAM® Plus locations.*

Eligible deposit windows:


Non-VIP Owner: Points may be deposited within the first three months of your current Use Year.
Silver VIP Owner: Points may be deposited within the first six months of your current Use Year.
Gold VIP Owner: Points may be deposited within the first nine months of your current Use Year.
Platinum VIP Owner: Points may be deposited anytime during your current Use Year.
Place your points into a future Use Year online or by calling the Vacation Planning Center at 800-251-8736 .
Important Information

*You may deposit up to the amount of points owned into a future use year excluding points associated with Bonus and PIC contracts.*
There is a $39 nonrefundable fee to use this feature online or a $49 nonrefundable fee when calling the Vacation Planning Center.
*Once points have been deposited, they will expire at the end of the Use Year selected and are not eligible to be deposited again.*
Once points are deposited into your Use Year of choice, the number of points you have available for CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Standard and Express Reservations will be increased by the amount of points deposited into that Use year.
*Deposited points may only be used to confirm Standard and Express reservations at eligible CLUB WYNDHAM Plus resort locations.*
One (1) Housekeeping Credit is required for every 1,000 points deposited.
Additional Housekeeping Credits may be purchased as needed to complete the deposit.
Deposits are a final transaction.
THEY KNOW HOW YOU USE YOUR POINTS.  Behind the scenes they know the 'kinds' of points being used.


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## HitchHiker71

I suspect that Cyrus may have a point that hasn’t actually been tested.  He attempted to make this point a few posts ago.  The system MUST track the type of points available by contract type.  For instance, I’ve got a total of 210k RUY CWA contract points.  Here’s a screenshot of what my 2019-2020 use year shows:






I’ve already made two reservations in that use year.  I also have two bonus point contracts that are now at zero due to the future use year bookings.

So, on the surface, it appears as though I have 192,775 CWA points in that use year that can be used for ARP bookings, but when I attempted to book a reservation for next summer for 165000 points, the system tells me that I do not have enough points to perform the booking, and that I only have 104000 actual ARP eligible points.

Granted, nothing to do with points deposit feature, but proof that the system does in fact track the types of points being used for bookings yes?

Now let’s run a use case scenario as Cyrus indicated.  In any one use year I’ve got 210k CWA and 508k PIC points.  Right now I’ve got 186325 points in my CUY that are eligible for points deposit into a future use year:






Note the total for the use year at 723,550.  I’ve used all but 186,325 points during the CUY.  I’m eligible to transfer up to 210k via the points deposit feature.  I’ve made zero bookings in the ARP window this year.  So, since I haven’t used my CWA points for any CWA specific bookings, all of my points are eligible for points deposit transfer.  

Cyrus asked the question, what if I had used all of my CWA points for ARP bookings, would I still be eligible to transfer what would be PIC points left in my CUY?  

According to what I know, PIC points are never eligible for transfer, they must be used in the CUY in which they are initially deposited.  So it is a valid question to ask about the use case Cyrus brings up.  I would also be more than curious what the answer is and if this use case has actually been tested by anyone.  

Our current working theory here is that ANY CWA/CWS CUY points can be transferred using the points deposit feature as long as the number of points doesn’t exceed your annually allotted CUY points amount.  Is anyone in a position to test this theory for us even by making a temporary ARP booking that would consume 100% of your available ARP points and then looking at the points deposit eligibility?


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## Richelle

paxsarah said:


> I’m fairly certain this is incorrect because although I didn’t have deposited points yet, once the new system was in place I was able to use legacy credit pooled points for ARP (which as we all know was impossible under the old system). My sense is that for purposes of ARP, the current system doesn’t make any distinction at all regarding the origin of the points.



I suspect that may have been a bug in the system. It was not supposed to allow that.  I own 292,000 at National Harbor. I have 323,000 in the credit pool. To test, I tried booking a reservation for 325,000 points with a checkin date of July 3rd, 2020. If it used my use year and credit pool, I would have had more then enough to cover that 325,000 reservation. Instead, it told me I did not have enough points. It did not try using my credit pool points. 


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## davejulien

Cyrus24 said:


> Don't talk down to me, I'm entitled to an opinion.  If you have FACTS, lay them out.



First off I'm having a conversation.  Not talking down to anyone.



Cyrus24 said:


> Once points have been deposited, they will expire at the end of the Use Year selected and are not eligible to be deposited again.



This line gave me pause.  It wasn't this way not long ago.

I called Owner Services and in March (3 months ago) they made an unannounced change (surprise surprise).  They now calculate how many points you can deposit forward.  The calculation is whatever points you use for ARP, cruises, flights, maintenance, etc... you subtract that total from your yearly RUY points and this is what you can deposit forward.  You can also do this in reverse by adding all the points you used for Standard and Express bookings along with your unused RUY points and this is what you can deposit forward.

With this new calculation if you had deposited points in 2019 and ALL your bookings were ARP you would not be able to move them forward again.

This calculation IS NOT what they were doing since the new system went live in 2017.  It's unfortunate that they don't announce things like this.  I feel it's very important to know this type of information so you know what your points can do.  Owner Services did say that they DO allow your Deposited points to be transferred to RCI.  So this, in a way, helps from keeping the owner from losing them.

Hope this clears things up.  Seems there was a curve-ball thrown into the situation.


----------



## paxsarah

Richelle said:


> I suspect that may have been a bug in the system. It was not supposed to allow that.  I own 292,000 at National Harbor. I have 323,000 in the credit pool. To test, I tried booking a reservation for 325,000 points with a checkin date of July 3rd, 2020. If it used my use year and credit pool, I would have had more then enough to cover that 325,000 reservation. Instead, it told me I did not have enough points. It did not try using my credit pool points.



I was going to ask what the expiration date on the credit pooled points are (because isn’t the last date points could be credit pooled under the old system May 2017, which would have them expiring in May 2020, before the date you experimented with), but it looks like the next post by davejulien answers the overarching question more definitively, regardless - a recent change that tightened the parameters.


----------



## Richelle

paxsarah said:


> I was going to ask what the expiration date on the credit pooled points are (because isn’t the last date points could be credit pooled under the old system May 2017, which would have them expiring in May 2020, before the date you experimented with), but it looks like the next post by davejulien answers the overarching question more definitively, regardless - a recent change that tightened the parameters.



You’re right. Mine expire in Feb 2020. I totally spaced. 


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## Cyrus24

davejulien said:


> I called Owner Services and in March (3 months ago) they made an unannounced change (surprise surprise). They now calculate how many points you can deposit forward. The calculation is whatever points you use for ARP, cruises, flights, maintenance, etc... you subtract that total from your yearly RUY points and this is what you can deposit forward. You can also do this in reverse by adding all the points you used for Standard and Express bookings along with your unused RUY points and this is what you can deposit forward.
> 
> With this new calculation if you had deposited points in 2019 and ALL your bookings were ARP you would not be able to move them forward again.
> 
> This calculation IS NOT what they were doing since the new system went live in 2017.


I was told this over a year ago.  And, that was my point, Wyndham tracks your points usage behind the scenes, they know what the points in any given use year bucket are eligible for.  Now, we agree, yes?


----------



## HitchHiker71

davejulien said:


> First off I'm having a conversation.  Not talking down to anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> This line gave me pause.  It wasn't this way not long ago.
> 
> I called Owner Services and in March (3 months ago) they made an unannounced change (surprise surprise).  They now calculate how many points you can deposit forward.  The calculation is whatever points you use for ARP, cruises, flights, maintenance, etc... you subtract that total from your yearly RUY points and this is what you can deposit forward.  You can also do this in reverse by adding all the points you used for Standard and Express bookings along with your unused RUY points and this is what you can deposit forward.
> 
> With this new calculation if you had deposited points in 2019 and ALL your bookings were ARP you would not be able to move them forward again.
> 
> This calculation IS NOT what they were doing since the new system went live in 2017.  It's unfortunate that they don't announce things like this.  I feel it's very important to know this type of information so you know what your points can do.  Owner Services did say that they DO allow your Deposited points to be transferred to RCI.  So this, in a way, helps from keeping the owner from losing them.
> 
> Hope this clears things up.  Seems there was a curve-ball thrown into the situation.



The excerpt from the online help for the points deposit has the same data that I read in the fall of 2018, including the statement about the deposited points having to be used in the use year in which they are deposited.  I explicitly remember reading this last year, so it’s not new.

I think Richelle is right in part in that it’s a bug of sorts.  Oftentimes when new systems are implemented like the points deposit, the core functionality is delivered via a MVP (Minimum Viable Product) approach, while additional functionalities are planned for implementation in future releases.  I suspect that’s what happened here.  The policy limitations were documented ahead of time, but the actual coding was rolled out over time.  This could explain why some folks may have been able to transfer CUY points that were previously deposited in the past that may no longer be supported once the code was actually put in place.


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## ecwinch

I would agree with Richelle's theory that the system initially had a bug that treated credit pooled points like Use Year (UY) points. Which is entirely consist with how poorly the roll-out was. 

Other than that it seems like some of the tension was related to cross-talk regarding two different topics - points eligibility for ARP and eligibility for points deposit. And in the end it appears they have tightened up on both fronts.


----------



## bnoble

Edited. I'm tired of arguing about this and have better things to do.


----------



## davejulien

Cyrus24 said:


> I was told this over a year ago.  And, that was my point, Wyndham tracks your points usage behind the scenes, they know what the points in any given use year bucket are eligible for.  Now, we agree, yes?



The text may have said this but that's not how it was working until 3 months ago.  The bug was found and fixed so yes NOW we agree even though I don't have first hand experience with this change.

BTW, this is a calculation from what you see on the points history tab.  It's not really "behind the scenes" in as much as a point-in-time history usage calculation when you go to deposit.


----------



## dgalati

bnoble said:


> Edited. I'm tired of arguing about this and have better things to do.


Yea I get what your saying. I had one this board that was very tiring and you can only hope they block you and stop responding with their nonsense.


----------



## capital city

Maybe we should start a point bucket thread so we can keep up with this a little easier instead of having it in the middle of a VIP change thread.


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## Cyrus24

dgalati said:


> Yea I get what your saying. I had one this board that was very tiring and you can only hope they block you and stop responding with their nonsense.


Why don’t you just go rent from an owner!!! [Comment removed by moderator]. The argument on the points deposit ‘feature’ is over, there was a conclusion.  Chill out.


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## Cyrus24

capital city said:


> Maybe we should start a point bucket thread so we can keep up with this a little easier instead of having it in the middle of a VIP change thread.


AGREE, I made that statement some posts back.


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## kaljor

Richelle said:


> I suspect that may have been a bug in the system. It was not supposed to allow that.  I own 292,000 at National Harbor. I have 323,000 in the credit pool. To test, I tried booking a reservation for 325,000 points with a checkin date of July 3rd, 2020. If it used my use year and credit pool, I would have had more then enough to cover that 325,000 reservation. Instead, it told me I did not have enough points. It did not try using my credit pool points.



OK I'm going to try to answer this, but I freely admit that I don't know for sure that I'm correct, and also it's hard to grasp the concepts and that makes it hard to write about the concepts.  So I'll limit my answer to just the specific example you posted about.

As I understand the system, I think based on an old post from Ron P., the system after May 2017 doesn't specifically identify buckets of points, but rather identifies "entitlements".  In your example, you own 292k points at National Harbor, that means that you are "entitled" to use 292k points for ARP each year.  It doesn't matter whether the points are current Use Year points or "Points Deposit" points, each and every use year you can make an ARP booking using up to 292,000 points at National Harbor.

That's how I understand it, any discussion or disagreement is welcome!

EDIT:  I just re-read your post and you're talking about the Credit Pool and I was talking about the Points Deposit Feature.  2 different systems, and I know nothing about the Credit Pool system.  Disregard this post!!


----------



## Richelle

kaljor said:


> OK I'm going to try to answer this, but I freely admit that I don't know for sure that I'm correct, and also it's hard to grasp the concepts and that makes it hard to write about the concepts.  So I'll limit my answer to just the specific example you posted about.
> 
> As I understand the system, I think based on an old post from Ron P., the system after May 2017 doesn't specifically identify buckets of points, but rather identifies "entitlements".  In your example, you own 292k points at National Harbor, that means that you are "entitled" to use 292k points for ARP each year.  It doesn't matter whether the points are current Use Year points or "Points Deposit" points, each and every use year you can make an ARP booking using up to 292,000 points at National Harbor.
> 
> That's how I understand it, any discussion or disagreement is welcome!
> 
> EDIT:  I just re-read your post and you're talking about the Credit Pool and I was talking about the Points Deposit Feature.  2 different systems, and I know nothing about the Credit Pool system.  Disregard this post!!



Credit pool and bonus points are the only point types that have their own buckets. It’s ok, no worries. 


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## dgalati

Cyrus24 said:


> Why don’t you just go rent from an owner!!! [Comment removed by moderator]. The argument on the points deposit ‘feature’ is over, there was a conclusion.  Chill out.


Chillin


----------



## uscav8r

Cyrus24 said:


> I know the sales weasels lie!!!  But when they share info without trying to sell me something, I get to where I can’t tell if they are really lying or are they just lost in the previous lies....
> 
> 
> 300K for Emerald (15% in the discount window)
> 400K for Gold
> 700k for Platinum
> 1000K for Diamond
> 1400K for Titanium....
> 
> 
> I am Gold so I asked about how this would impact me.
> - Would I now be 'new' Platinum?  Only if I bought 64K points.
> - Well, what about my current Gold benefits?  I’d be Grandfathered.
> - Are New Platinum VIP benefits, at the new lower point level the same benefits as current day Platinum owners?  Don’t know....



You may be current Gold, but were you grandfathered in at the previous Gold point level (600k points)? From the sound of things, you have 636k points under the old Gold, so you would not meet the new Gold-to-Platinum level. However, you should not be downgraded from your current benefits, such as 35% discount, unlimited HK and RT, and 45-day upgrades. 

It doesn’t help when one cannot see the benefits granted under each renamed level. 



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## OutSkiing

New tier names and point breaks as of recent sales update are:

Advantage - 300,000
Champion - 500,000
Ambassadore - 800,000
Legend - 1,100,000
Founders - 1,400,000

Weird thing is that Legend (equivalent to Platinum) starts at 1,100,000 rather than 1mm.  We happen to have 1.075mm qualified points so even sales guy was confused about whether we would be ‘downgraded’ to Ambassadore (gold equivalent) or not.


Bob


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## davejulien

OutSkiing said:


> Weird thing is that Legend (equivalent to Platinum) starts at 1,100,000 rather than 1mm.  We happen to have 1.075mm qualified points so even sales guy was confused about whether we would be ‘downgraded’ to Ambassadore (gold equivalent) or not.



Considering they were previously going to make PR owners who didn’t have a 1.4 million points Titanium I think they could easily do the same with Platinum to Legend without downgrading.


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## HitchHiker71

OutSkiing said:


> New tier names and point breaks as of recent sales update are:
> 
> Advantage - 300,000
> Champion - 500,000
> Ambassadore - 800,000
> Legend - 1,100,000
> Founders - 1,400,000
> 
> Weird thing is that Legend (equivalent to Platinum) starts at 1,100,000 rather than 1mm.  We happen to have 1.075mm qualified points so even sales guy was confused about whether we would be ‘downgraded’ to Ambassadore (gold equivalent) or not.
> 
> 
> Bob



There is no written confirmation that we’ve about these new names and point levels just to be clear.  Has anyone seen anything from within Wyndham that can be shared?  

I’ve seen the same rumors on the FB groups but nothing on any Wyndham paper.  

Regarding the increase in point levels.  AFAIK anyone at current levels will be grandfathered into the equivalent levels in the new Privileges program.  So if you are current VIPP you will be grandfathered into Legend even if you only have 1MM points and even if you are a grandfathered Platinum owner from the previous 2012 changes.  Do NOT believe anything sales tells you until we see something official from Wyndham. 


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## paxsarah

This evolution is interesting. I'm glad to see they took a note and decided not to recycle any of the current names for changed levels in the new program (at least in the current iteration).


----------



## davejulien

paxsarah said:


> This evolution is interesting. I'm glad to see they took a note and decided not to recycle any of the current names for changed levels in the new program (at least in the current iteration).



People are already confused how the program works.  Better to not confuse more with conflicting names.  I’m Platinum so they should make me Legend to not lose benefits if this is true.


----------



## OutSkiing

HitchHiker71 said:


> There is no written confirmation that we’ve about these new names and point levels just to be clear.  Has anyone seen anything from within Wyndham that can be shared?



Here is New Wyndham one pager. They said it was from corporate. Note Ambassadore goes up to 1,099,000 points and Legend starts at 1,100,000.

I agree those in the middle should be grandfathered. One Wyndham rep said we would be and the salesman said he was not sure. I believe we will be.

Bob


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## Manzana

OutSkiing said:


> View attachment 12664
> 
> Here is New Wyndham one pager. They said it was from corporate. Note Ambassadore goes up to 1,099,000 points and Legend starts at 1,100,000.
> 
> I agree those in the middle should be grandfathered. One Wyndham rep said we would be and the salesman said he was not sure. I believe we will be.
> 
> Bob


Interesting in that one pager the unlimited housekeeping is still mentioned....


----------



## HitchHiker71

Manzana said:


> Interesting in that one pager the unlimited housekeeping is still mentioned....



Also of note is the all inclusive experiences and Club Pass discounts for the Founders level.  I don’t recall the Club Pass discounts being listed previously.


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## ecwinch

HitchHiker71 said:


> Also of note is the all inclusive experiences and Club Pass discounts for the Founders level.  I don’t recall the Club Pass discounts being listed previously.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The whole mess is being so mangled it was easy to miss - but it was in the Titanium level in the previous slide.


----------



## Cyrus24

ecwinch said:


> The whole mess is being so mangled it was easy to miss - but it was in the Titanium level in the previous slide.


And, it still says Titanium on MyClubWyndham News.  Are they just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks?  Or, are they using all this confusion to get existing VIP's to add 100K points?  This is crazy!!!


----------



## HitchHiker71

Cyrus24 said:


> And, it still says Titanium on MyClubWyndham News.  Are they just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks?  Or, are they using all this confusion to get existing VIP's to add 100K points?  This is crazy!!!



Yes? 


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## Richelle

Cyrus24 said:


> And, it still says Titanium on MyClubWyndham News.  Are they just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks?  Or, are they using all this confusion to get existing VIP's to add 100K points?  This is crazy!!!



Supposedly Wyndham got a lot of feedback about the new names, so they decided to go a different route. The different route is even more confusing in my opinion. Legend, Ambassador? Founder? I’d like to know their thinking behind this. Why do they think this is better?  Stick with metals. That’s what people understand. Emerald/advantage could be bronze. Everyone would expect that to fall bronze to fall under silver. Why titanium would go above platinum is beyond me, but I wouldn’t care about that so much. It’s a less confusing system then what they have been giving us.   

Legends and champions go along with games or sports. They fit together. Advantage doesn’t seem to fit anywhere. Founders and Ambassadors could fit together, but it’s a huge stretch. Founders of the country and ambassadors of a country. There is no overall theme here. Themes are easier for people to understand, follow, and remember. 

Where is the number for their PR and Marketing department? I have some feedback I’d like to share.


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## kaljor

How many TUGGERs who are currently Platinum with 1M points or just over would be tempted to increase their developer points by 400,000 to get a last minute discount of 65% as opposed to the current 50%?  I'm just curious.


----------



## Sandi Bo

Richelle said:


> Supposedly Wyndham got a lot of feedback about the new names, so they decided to go a different route. The different route is even more confusing in my opinion. Legend, Ambassador? Founder? I’d like to know their thinking behind this. Why do they think this is better?  Stick with metals. That’s what people understand. Emerald/advantage could be bronze. Everyone would expect that to fall bronze to fall under silver. Why titanium would go above platinum is beyond me, but I wouldn’t care about that so much. It’s a less confusing system then what they have been giving us.
> 
> Legends and champions go along with games or sports. They fit together. Advantage doesn’t seem to fit anywhere. Founders and Ambassadors could fit together, but it’s a huge stretch. Founders of the country and ambassadors of a country. There is no overall theme here. Themes are easier for people to understand, follow, and remember.
> 
> Where is the number for their PR and Marketing department? I have some feedback I’d like to share.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They never cease to amaze me. 

My biggest gripe was changing silver to gold. 

But what a way to launch a program.  Meanwhile, I suppose IT already working on the code.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Sandi Bo said:


> They never cease to amaze me.
> 
> My biggest gripe was changing silver to gold.
> 
> But what a way to launch a program.  Meanwhile, I suppose IT already working on the code.
> 
> View attachment 12672



As long as there are five tiers, the naming from an IT coding standpoint is largely irrelevant as it is just a label that can easily be changed.  The actual benefits changing would seem to be more of a coding challenge for sure.  Either way, I get your point and the graphic is funny! 


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## Baby Jane

So anyone else hating privileges as the new name. In today’s society being privileged is to be hated for any real or perceived privilege we have. Wyndham marketing is worse than their IT


----------



## paxsarah

I'm all for checking my privilege as often as I can out in the world, but owning a timeshare is a privileged person's endeavor and the (formerly) VIPs are the ones who've spent the most money for the most privileges, so I see it as actually fairly accurate as a description.


----------



## Jan M.

Cyrus24 said:


> Are they just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks?



Yes they are. Or to take it a step further, of course they are. Wyndham made it quite clear that Privileges is a work in progress and nothing will be decided upon for sure until it is closer to the roll out date. Until they make the final official announcement of what the levels and benefits will be everything is subject to change. Since the new program date is set for late 2020 they have plenty of time to come up with ideas, "see what sticks", before they decide what the final product will be. They are absolutely looking for owners feedback to find what is most important and appealing to us. What will entice us to buy or give us a reason to keep buying more.

So what was it that convinced you to buy enough points to be VIP or to buy more to get to a higher VIP level? Here is my list in order of importance.

 1. The discount
 2. The upgrades
 3. Free reservation transactions
 4. Unlimited housekeeping credits
 5. Ability to request specific units (To make this a real benefit the layouts with the unit numbers should be available for all the resorts when you bring up the information on each resort.)
 6. Points Deposit
 7. Guest Confirmations
 8. RARP and APR
 9. Early check-in
10. RCI instant search and book.
11. Worldwide external exchange deposit unit size upgrade
12. Exclusive VIP check-in area
13. Midweek clean and tidy

I've never used these two so didn't know what order of priority they should get.
14. Access to Margaritaville inventory
15. Extended Plus Partners travel booking window

16. Daily newspaper. With the news sites on the internet and everything going digital this isn't as big a deal as it used to be. However I really like getting the local paper to find out what's going on in the area and see the local restaurant ads.


----------



## OutSkiing

Jan M. said:


> I've never used these two so didn't know what order of priority they should get.
> 14. Access to Margaritaville inventory



I pretty much agree with your ranking except after a recent trip to Margaritaville in Puerto Rico we would move this way up to #6 or #7. It was a lovely experience.

Bob


----------



## WyndhamBarter

I notice that the one-pager that Outskiing posted yesterday
has replaced the previous contents of the "sales hub" URL
that Richelle posted about on May 16:

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...g-late-2020-merged.289659/page-6#post-2283847

So at least we can see it in all its PDF glory:

https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf

Also of note (for future revisions!) the lower right corner says
"0674-2019 6/19".


----------



## OutSkiing

WyndhamBarter said:


> I notice that the one-pager that Outskiing posted yesterday
> has replaced the previous contents of the "sales hub" URL
> that Richelle posted about on May 16:
> 
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...g-late-2020-merged.289659/page-6#post-2283847
> 
> So at least we can see it in all its PDF glory:
> 
> https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf
> 
> Also of note (for future revisions!) the lower right corner says
> "0674-2019 6/19".


Much better resolution.

My shot was accross the counter at the parking pass desk. Even the sales area did not have a copy yet.

Bob


----------



## bendadin

Did anyone notice that it is the exact same date as the plan that they do have on their website? It seems as though they had two ideas and went with the other one (which really is a much better plan.)


----------



## Richelle

WyndhamBarter said:


> I notice that the one-pager that Outskiing posted yesterday
> has replaced the previous contents of the "sales hub" URL
> that Richelle posted about on May 16:
> 
> https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...g-late-2020-merged.289659/page-6#post-2283847
> 
> So at least we can see it in all its PDF glory:
> 
> https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf
> 
> Also of note (for future revisions!) the lower right corner says
> "0674-2019 6/19".



Note the points level increased on the existing levels. 


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## HitchHiker71

Richelle said:


> Note the points level increased on the existing levels.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yes, interestingly enough they only increased the points levels for the three existing VIP tiers by 100k each and left the two new tiers alone.  


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## Jan M.

Late 2020 gives us a lot of time to wait before the fat lady sings and it ain't over until the fat lady sings. Right now she isn't even doing her warm up vocal excercises yet, they're still just trying to find a costume to fit her. Lol.

Okay; so who was the fat lady? If we knew that, the origin of this phrase would be easy to determine. Unfortunately, we don't, so a little more effort is going to be required. The two areas of endeavour that this expression is most often associated with are the unusual bedfellows, German opera and American sport. In billiards the actual phrase is "it ain't over until the fat lady sinks.






The musical connection is with the familiar operatic role of Brunnhilde in Richard Wagner's _Götterdämmerung_, the last of the immensely long, four-opera _Ring Cycle_. Brunnhilde is usually depicted as a well-upholstered lady who appears for a ten minute solo to conclude proceedings. 'When the fat lady sings' is a reasonable answer to the question 'when will it be over?', which must have been asked many times during Ring Cycle performances, lasting as they do upwards of 14 hours.


----------



## Manzana

The website has been updated with the new names in the what’s happening section


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## Cyrus24

"The Champion, Ambassador, and Legend tiers will have new points values after Privileges launches. Current VIP owners will retain their VIP status in the equivalent tier in Privileges . As an example, if you are Silver today you’ll be Champion in the new program."

I find these words interesting.  No need to jump on up to current day platinum from gold, I guess.  Since they say it applies to where you are 'today' versus where you are at the time of implementation.  Wonder how they will sell/spin that statement.


----------



## Jan M.

To use Cyrus24's phrase I hope these names are something being thrown against the wall that doesn't stick. If you are talking to someone who says they are any of these new names do you just nod and pretend you know which level that is or come right out and ask? I foresee a lot of years of people needing to explain or ask if those proposed names were the old silver, gold or platinum. The metal levels explain themselves; these names do not. The point requirements can change but regardless of age everyone gets: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum and Titanium.


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## Baby Jane

Jan M. said:


> To use Cyrus24's phrase I hope these names are something being thrown against the wall that doesn't stick. If you are talking to someone who says they are any of these new names do you just nod and pretend you know which level that is or come right out and ask? I foresee a lot of years of people needing to explain or ask if those proposed names were the old silver, gold or platinum. The metal levels explain themselves; these names do not. The point requirements can change but regardless of age everyone gets: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum and Titanium.


Really not happy about the points change. How can they say your level won’t change when we are platinum now but in the new system Champion is silver according to web which would put ambassador into what is now gold according to points levels but platinum is in ambassador.  I know it’s just 100000 difference to get to legend but we decided the last time we bought that no matter what that’s all we were spending. Last time they changed points levels they grandfathered people in but by changing names along with it it’s muddying the waters.


----------



## davejulien

Baby Jane said:


> Really not happy about the points change. How can they say your level won’t change when we are platinum now but in the new system Champion is silver according to web which would put ambassador into what is now gold according to points levels but platinum is in ambassador.  I know it’s just 100000 difference to get to legend but we decided the last time we bought that no matter what that’s all we were spending. Last time they changed points levels they grandfathered people in but by changing names along with it it’s muddying the waters.



Assuming Legend has a 50% discount they would have to put you into that level so you would retain your benefits.  What I’m curious about is I have 1,001,000 points.  That extra 1k points gets me 15 more guest certificates (30 total).  I’m assuming I’d also get to keep the extra 15 because that’s what I have today.

They will always be tweaking/increasing points in the future.  They will have to retain benefits for those of us who bought when the point tier values were lower.  In some time who knows they may increase yet again.

Regardless be prepared for sales to tell you that you have to buy another 100k points to keep your benefits.  It will be another opportunity for them to lie and for you to prove them wrong during a high pressure “update”.  I have no doubt they will tell me something is wrong with me not having that extra 100k.  Like maybe I’m not seeing all the inventory like a 100% Legend owner would.  I’m already negative and it’s not kicked in yet.  Lol


----------



## ecwinch

Look on the bright side..... one day you might be able to say "I Am Legend".... which sounds so much more impressive than "I am Platinum". 

It even sounds better than "I Am Founder".


----------



## Baby Jane

davejulien said:


> Assuming Legend has a 50% discount they would have to put you into that level so you would retain your benefits.  What I’m curious about is I have 1,001,000 points.  That extra 1k points gets me 15 more guest certificates (30 total).  I’m assuming I’d also get to keep the extra 15 because that’s what I have today.
> 
> They will always be tweaking/increasing points in the future.  They will have to retain benefits for those of us who bought when the point tier values were lower.  In some time who knows they may increase yet again.
> 
> Regardless be prepared for sales to tell you that you have to buy another 100k points to keep your benefits.  It will be another opportunity for them to lie and for you to prove them wrong during a high pressure “update”.  I have no doubt they will tell me something is wrong with me not having that extra 100k.  Like maybe I’m not seeing all the inventory like a 100% Legend owner would.  I’m already negative and it’s not kicked in yet.  Lol


We don’t attend sales meetings. I have been tempted since they announced the changes coming but don’t go because like you I agree they will lie and say you have to buy more to retain current levels. They always had us sign we were rejecting stuff like PR so wouldn’t want to risk them saying we signed away rights lol


----------



## davejulien

Baby Jane said:


> We don’t attend sales meetings. I have been tempted since they announced the changes coming but don’t go because like you I agree they will lie and say you have to buy more to retain current levels. They always had us sign we were rejecting stuff like PR so wouldn’t want to risk them saying we signed away rights lol



I was once told that if we never attended an update from 20 years ago that they would have had to honor the price as if it were 20 years ago.  Reason being is because we never signed that paper that says we deny the sales presentation offer to kick us up to current day prices.  I’m sure this is a lie also.  Just thought it interesting.

If this is true then by you never attending then you can snag PR at the price you last attended a presentation.  Again, I’m sure this is not true.  Probably just told me that to make me feel guilty for turning them down.


----------



## Mr. Phil

*When the changes occur, you are grandfather in regardless of the level. Wyndham had increased the point levels in the past and everyone was grandfathered in.*



Cyrus24 said:


> I know the sales weasels lie!!!  But when they share info without trying to sell me something, I get to where I can’t tell if they are really lying or are they just lost in the previous lies.
> 
> Went to an update today at Emerald Grande, Destin.  Update part was normal except for where the presenter mentioned the new VIP levels that were announced (apparently only to sales) on 5/1/19 effective in 2020.  In the individual meeting, I received a bit more detail.
> 300K for Emerald (15% in the discount window)
> 400K for Gold
> 700k for Platinum
> 1000K for Diamond
> 1400K for Titanium
> Our salesperson even pulled out the note they received and flashed it in front of our eyes.  It looked like it would be shared with Owners on 5/16/19.  I had already had a bit of a contentious conversation with the weasel and was unable to snap a picture of the letter.  I also was not given time to read any of the FAQs.
> 
> I am Gold so I asked about how this would impact me.
> - Would I now be 'new' Platinum?  Only if I bought 64K points.
> - Well, what about my current Gold benefits?  I’d be Grandfathered.
> - Are New Platinum VIP benefits, at the new lower point level the same benefits as current day Platinum owners?  Don’t know.
> 
> At this point we were lost in the weeds and the salesperson seemed lost as well.  We never saw an option for buying more points and were rushed off to gifting.  It was an odd ending to the update.   Unless they were just totally BSing us, we are going to start hearing and seeing more on this change.  Hopefully those attending update sessions in the coming days can gather a bit more info on this change.
> 
> Side note.  The part of our individual session that got contentious was when the salesperson tried to tell me I'd missed the open enrollment period earlier in the year.  What open enrollment period?  For what new benefits?  5 things I was told.  1. New Perks (I have perks),  2.  Club Pass changes (ie. 10 months for WorldMark reservations),  3. New Rewards Card (they wanted me to apply for a new Rewards card, I'm not doing that), 4.  Plus Partners (have that, never saw any value for using) and 5. WWE or World Wide Exchange (I never understood what this was about and I'm sure it's a scam of some sort).
> 
> I always enjoy reading about updates.  Thought I'd share this one, as odd as it was.  The breakfast was good, BTW.


----------



## Mr. Phil

Wyndham grandfathers in all point level status, they have done this in the past.


----------



## dgalati

Mr. Phil said:


> Wyndham grandfathers in all point level status, they have done this in the past.


Nothing is guaranteed


----------



## dgalati

Mr. Phil said:


> *When the changes occur, you are grandfather in regardless of the level. Wyndham had increased the point levels in the past and everyone was grandfathered in.*


I can bet three more levels are added in the future. This is to daze and confuse the VIP members into buying more points then they can possibly use or need. Its called a marketing strategy. Then they can offer you a exit called  Ovations. This scheme was  offered to help owners exit but was really a way Wyndham helped themselves to take back what was sold at 20-30k for a price of $0. This was needed inventory developer could sell again at , yes you guessed it, 20-30k again.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Mr. Phil said:


> Wyndham grandfathers in all point level status, they have done this in the past.



Link to current Privileges brochure, which indicates grandfathering for current tiers:

https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## davejulien

dgalati said:


> Then they can offer you a exit called  Ovations. This scheme was  offered to help owners exit but was really a way Wyndham helped themselves to take back what was sold at 20-30k for a price of $0. This was needed inventory developer could sell again at , yes you guessed it, 20-30k again.



The problem is Wyndham resales are nearly free.  With this in mind it stands to reason that Wyndham will take them back for free.  Why should Wyndham pay more then what people are paying on eBay?  That really wouldn’t make much sense.

Through Ovatations Wyndham will offer direct purchase owners 3 years of maintenance for free in return for you turning in the points.  This “in value” is more than you will get from eBay.

To me it sounds like Wyndham is doing the right thing with Ovations.  It also fits the sales model you described so that makes it even a better fit for Wyndham as a company.

People should stop looking at owning a Wyndham timeshare like “property”.  In reality it’s more like a discount book that you purchase with yearly maintenance.  As long as you own “the book” and pay your dues you can get larger rooms with more amenities and better locations for a price cheaper then your your local hotel chain.  Overall it’s not a bad deal but it does require a long term commitment to recover your initial purchase.  Then you should ask yourself would you have been better served just banking and investing the money.

Overall I don’t think the Wyndham program is a bad one.  Unfortunately it’s the sales team that lie through their teeth to get the sale.  Wyndham could fix this problem but they don’t seem to really care which I don’t understand.  I constantly hear the same lies coming from different locations.  When I enquire they say this is how the corporate trainer has taught them.  So, bottom line, you are certainly very correct...  this ecosystem is very much self perpetuating.


----------



## jercal10

Had the misfortune to attend an update @ Clearwater( 2 BR pres.-discount & upgrade).
Started @ checkin--"Oh didn't u get the e mail about changes?"(first of 7 times  that I told them no I did not).

So i went to update--John my"host" gave the robotically delivered general presentation. Then we went with John.
Lot of double talk about priveleges. Supposed to take effect 10/1? Showed us the first and second cut at levels. Not a darn thing about new benefits--other than computer changes make it "better"

Called Matt the boss over who tried to get me to go from gold to platinum. Told him to go away.

John told us WYN will no longer sell contracts less than 400K points--Ha- Ha!

They tried to sell us on some program where WYN uses our points and gives us credit-seemed like I was going to spend $40K to get points for them to use in their rental business. Didn't hear an acronnym for this program.

Finally told John to let us go.

Got $100,plus free parking for 2nd car($25).

Reminded me why I had given up on updates!


----------



## jercal10

After e mailing WYN  HQ for  clarification--received word back that priveleges program still in formulation, and  would not be in effect til mid or late 2020. Not to worry.

Those people at checkin and sales @ Clearwater are jerks and deserve all I gave them. Program definitely going into effect 10/1 this year.What a group!


----------



## violetcat

dgalati said:


> What about the loss of value for a VIP with the ending of cancel and rebook as it was sold to become a VIP?


That is why I got out.  I lost a lot of money and points but I got fed up with Wyndham.  I loved it for almost 30 years and was Diamond.  But the loss of book and rebook along with "Become Diamond and you will have unlimited guest certificates!" went to 9, YES JUST 9 a year!!!!  I gave small trips as presents all time to friends and family.  I gave several young couples honeymoon trip as presents!!!  My son even used a timeshare week for his honeymoon.  I also used most all of my points each years.  Then Wyndham got greedy!!  I gave up, took a huge loss, and moved forward.  I loved my timeshare and was good at using it.  That was the problem, the companies do not want you to be good at using it!!!


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## dgalati

violetcat said:


> That is why I got out.  I lost a lot of money and points but I got fed up with Wyndham.  I loved it for almost 30 years and was Diamond.  But the loss of book and rebook along with "Become Diamond and you will have unlimited guest certificates!" went to 9, YES JUST 9 a year!!!!  I gave small trips as presents all time to friends and family.  I gave several young couples honeymoon trip as presents!!!  My son even used a timeshare week for his honeymoon.  I also used most all of my points each years.  Then Wyndham got greedy!!  I gave up, took a huge loss, and moved forward.  I loved my timeshare and was good at using it.  That was the problem, the companies do not want you to be good at using it!!!


So true. Change the terms and what was promised is a kick in any owners teeth. Sorry about your loss. Making peace with the past is Moving forward and putting it behind you.


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## 55plus

dgalati said:


> What about the loss of value for a VIP with the ending of cancel and rebook as it was sold to become a VIP?


Cancel and rebook was never a written policy of a spelled out benefit, however, it is still an option. It just doesn't work the same as before.


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## Baby Jane

We did in room survey at Nola Saturday he had the paper from website and told us we would lose benefits because people had grandfathered next to name if they were grandfathered in. Our account didn’t.  Like we all don’t talk to each other and they will grandfather some people and not others. The fact they think we are that stupid never ceases to amaze me.


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> Cancel and rebook was never a written policy of a spelled out benefit, however, it is still an option. It just doesn't work the same as before.


Not the option it was sold as. No it does not work as it did before Wyndham changed the way they sold it and said it was going to pay for all maintenance fees using it.


----------



## dgalati

Baby Jane said:


> We did in room survey at Nola Saturday he had the paper from website and told us we would lose benefits because people had grandfathered next to name if they were grandfathered in. Our account didn’t.  Like we all don’t talk to each other and they will grandfather some people and not others. The fact they think we are that stupid never ceases to amaze me.


You would have to be Brain dead or a agent of Wyndham to believe or to fall for the Wyndham sales pitch.


----------



## Jimag

violetcat said:


> That is why I got out.  I lost a lot of money and points but I got fed up with Wyndham.  I loved it for almost 30 years and was Diamond.  But the loss of book and rebook along with "Become Diamond and you will have unlimited guest certificates!" went to 9, YES JUST 9 a year!!!!  I gave small trips as presents all time to friends and family.  I gave several young couples honeymoon trip as presents!!!  My son even used a timeshare week for his honeymoon.  I also used most all of my points each years.  Then Wyndham got greedy!!  I gave up, took a huge loss, and moved forward.  I loved my timeshare and was good at using it.  That was the problem, the companies do not want you to be good at using it!!!


Huh.  Diamond status?  Is there currently a VIP Diamond status?  And, does any VIP status currently confer unlimited guest certificates?  Are we talking about Wyndham?


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## dgalati

Jimag said:


> Huh.  Diamond status?  Is there currently a VIP Diamond status?  And, does any VIP status currently confer unlimited guest certificates?  Are we talking about Wyndham?


This is probably a result of attending a Wyndham update. Diamond must have been the sales pitch of the day.


----------



## Jimag

dgalati said:


> This is probably a result of attending a Wyndham update. Diamond must have been the sales pitch of the day.


Maybe, but the post referred to Diamond VIP status in the past tense and I don't believe any present VIP status confers unlimited guest certificates, so I thought folks should be aware.


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## dgalati

Jimag said:


> Maybe, but the post referred to Diamond VIP status in the past tense and I don't believe any present VIP status confers unlimited guest certificates, so I thought folks should be aware.


If you sat through a few updates you would know anything is possible with the sales weasels trying to sell a chicken  dinner


----------



## 55plus

dgalati said:


> Not the option it was sold as. No it does not work as it did before Wyndham changed the way they sold it and said it was going to pay for all maintenance fees using it.


A common theme throughout TUG is that sales weasels lie and will say anything to make a sale. That's what they did with "cancel and rebook." It was not a benefit nor a policy. It was a way to obtain an upgrade within the upgrade period and sales weasels used it to make sales - promise everything and deliver nothing. 

Cancel and rebook still works, but it now works like this: if you need a two bedroom unit you book a two bedroom and a one bedroom and request a upgrade. When you are within the upgrade period check and keep checking for a one bedroom and two bedroom. If there is a two bedroom and you didn't receive an upgrade, book the one bedroom and hopefully you'll be able to secure the upgrade. If nothing comes available you still have the original two bedroom. Cancel the one bedroom within the cancellation peroid. You may get lucky or maybe not. It all depends on the time of year you want to travel and weather it's for at a high demand location or during a high demand timeframe.


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## paxsarah

55plus said:


> Cancel and rebook still works, but it now works like this



Maybe as a non-VIP I'm missing something, but this is nothing like cancel rebook as it previously existed. This is just hedging your bets and hoping for an upgrade and/or availability during the discount period.


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## 55plus

paxsarah said:


> Maybe as a non-VIP I'm missing something, but this is nothing like cancel rebook as it previously existed. This is just hedging your bets and hoping for an upgrade and/or availability during the discount period.


Exactly! It's a crapshoot...


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## buckor

So, we checked in for a one night stay at Great Smokies Lodge today. Lady at the front counter recognized me and welcomed me back (we do like this place!). Went to go get my "parking pass" and was asked if I received my email about my new benefits package and the free breakfast they offer the next morning. I said no, but I'm not interested. The guy then said, "So, you haven't opted in for your new benefit levels?" I said, "I'm Gold VIP, I know what my benefits are." He said, "But things are changing, do you know what you're being grandfathered into?" I said, "I'm on TUG...y'all dont even know what I'm being grandfathered into. One day the new levels are this, the next day they are changed. So, no, I'm not interested in going to any meetings to "learn" about levels that y'all dont really even know anything about."

He said, "Well, it's no skin off my back if you don't want to go." I said, "Good. Have a great day!" And that was it...grabbed my pass and left. Easiest "no" I've been able to give.

I could tell he was annoyed, but oh well. I'm here for one night and not spending the next morning with sales. However, we have had a great day in the parks!! It's pretty busy here this weekend. And yes, the outdoor park is still open on weekends.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727AZ using Tapatalk


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## chapjim

buckor said:


> So, we checked in for a one night stay at Great Smokies Lodge today. Lady at the front counter recognized me and welcomed me back (we do like this place!). Went to go get my "parking pass" and was asked if I received my email about my new benefits package and the free breakfast they offer the next morning. I said no, but I'm not interested. The guy then said, "So, you haven't opted in for your new benefit levels?" I said, "I'm Gold VIP, I know what my benefits are." He said, "But things are changing, do you know what you're being grandfathered into?" I said, "I'm on TUG...y'all dont even know what I'm being grandfathered into. One day the new levels are this, the next day they are changed. So, no, I'm not interested in going to any meetings to "learn" about levels that y'all dont really even know anything about."
> 
> He said, "Well, it's no skin off my back if you don't want to go." I said, "Good. Have a great day!" And that was it...grabbed my pass and left. Easiest "no" I've been able to give.
> 
> I could tell he was annoyed, but oh well. I'm here for one night and not spending the next morning with sales. However, we have had a great day in the parks!! It's pretty busy here this weekend. And yes, the outdoor park is still open on weekends.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727AZ using Tapatalk



She's probably the same lady who, after about a dozen increasingly emphatic NOs (make that "negative responses" -- see below), asked me if I was having a bad day.  (What is the plural of "no"?)


----------



## Eric B

chapjim said:


> She's probably the same lady who, after about a dozen increasingly emphatic NOs, asked me if I was having a bad day.  (What is the plural of "no"?)



“Negative responses.”


----------



## happyhopian

HitchHiker71 said:


> Link to current Privileges brochure, which indicates grandfathering for current tiers:
> 
> https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



SOOOOOO.... I am reading this and I don't see the same grandfathering you see. I see three current levels in the middle with the benefits listed and then arrows underneath show how many points those benefits will cost going forward. I can say that we bought exactly enough to get platinum and would apparently be pushed down to what is today called gold under this new plan


----------



## 55plus

happyhopian said:


> SOOOOOO.... I am reading this and I don't see the same grandfathering you see. I see three current levels in the middle with the benefits listed and then arrows underneath show how many points those benefits will cost going forward. I can say that we bought exactly enough to get platinum and would apparently be pushed down to what is today called gold under this new plan


I read it as a VIP Platinum owner is moved up to the new Diamond level.


----------



## davejulien

55plus said:


> I read it as a VIP Platinum owner is moved up to the new Diamond level.



Where do you see “Diamond” in the levels?  I see “Legend”.


----------



## kaljor

55plus said:


> I read it as a VIP Platinum owner is moved up to the new Diamond level.



I agree.  It looks like anyone who is currently Platinum will become Legend, which I think was called Diamond in an earlier brochure,  but to attain Legend/Diamond in the future you will need 1.1 million points.  So that would be considered grandfathering.


----------



## HitchHiker71

There are earlier posts in this thread that provide comments that support grandfathering here:

<a href="https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index...g-late-2020-merged.289659/page-6#post-2283705"</a>

Attaching the images again here for reference. Basically, grandfathering is explicitly referenced - same as it was when the VIP program changes were enacted in 2012 - and will apply for the Privileges changes planned for 2020.


----------



## Joski

So I went to an owners update at Wyndham Ocean Walk Daytona today. They of course spoke about Privileges. We are right now Platinum with our 2 pics. But they told us that our 2 pics do not go towards Privileges. Only developer points count towards Privileges. So we needed to buy more points to keep us at the Platinum level or new Privileges level. Is this a sales gimmick or truth?


----------



## kaljor

Joski said:


> So I went to an owners update at Wyndham Ocean Walk Daytona today. They of course spoke about Privileges. We are right now Platinum with our 2 pics. But they told us that our 2 pics do not go towards Privileges. Only developer points count towards Privileges. So we needed to buy more points to keep us at the Platinum level or new Privileges level. Is this a sales gimmick or truth?



Well I'm no expert but I do know two things for sure.  First, the new Privileges program has not been finalized or announced, and the target date to begin it is not until late in 2020.

Second, anytime and every time a sales person tells you you have to buy points because of ........whatever, it's just simply not true. 

I know it sounds simplistic to say, but until Wyndham announces a new program or a change to an existing program, the program still exists as is. And they don't announce big changes through their sales department, they will inform all members when they feel it's appropriate.  So just enjoy your vacation.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Joski said:


> So I went to an owners update at Wyndham Ocean Walk Daytona today. They of course spoke about Privileges. We are right now Platinum with our 2 pics. But they told us that our 2 pics do not go towards Privileges. Only developer points count towards Privileges. So we needed to buy more points to keep us at the Platinum level or new Privileges level. Is this a sales gimmick or truth?



Last I spoke with a SVP in sales/marketing a couple months back now, PIC will stay intact as part of the Privileges rollout.  As others have said, everything is always subject to change, but I know from direct conversations that early on the topic of whether PIC would stay intact was discussed at length in ideation meetings and the consensus agreed upon was that PIC contracts will still be honored as developer point status within Privileges.

Don’t believe anything the normal sales staff tells you, their job is to sell you developer points to make a commission, and many of them will say just about anything, including the use of dishonest sales tactics to make you fearful you will lose something you currently have, to get you to buy.  It’s unfortunate but often true.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Braindead

I think some might be missing a big part when Privileges is Officially Announced
There’s a very good chance that when the announcement comes that will be the date of your Grandfathering status.
It will be like the credit pool the day Voyager was officially announced. Voyager wasn’t in effect yet but some rules changed the day of the announcement.

So if some like HitchHiker wait to see the official announcement to make a decision to stay Gold or move up Platinum it might be too late.
Some might end up having to buy another 100k points to get the benefits they want with Privileges.

Grandfathering could also be changed to say: as long as your membership doesn’t change. You could possibly lose your Grandfathered status if you buy resell, sell or use Ovations.


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## HitchHiker71

Braindead said:


> I think some might be missing a big part when Privileges is Officially Announced
> There’s a very good chance that when the announcement comes that will be the date of your Grandfathering status.
> It will be like the credit pool the day Voyager was officially announced. Voyager wasn’t in effect yet but some rules changed the day of the announcement.
> 
> So if some like HitchHiker wait to see the official announcement to make a decision to stay Gold or move up Platinum it might be too late.
> Some might end up having to buy another 100k points to get the benefits they want with Privileges.
> 
> Grandfathering could also be changed to say: as long as your membership doesn’t change. You could possibly lose your Grandfathered status if you buy resell, sell or use Ovations.



Anything is possible, that's why everything Wyndham publishes has an asterisk next to it that says "subject to change."  I've actually never said to wait just to be clear.  I'm only passing along what I hear directly from people in senior leadership positions at least on this thread.  I generally don't have conversations with people in senior leadership positions within the Sales/Marketing division very frequently, which is why I don't post many updates in this thread.  I'm heading to the owners meeting in Austin in early November, after which I expect to have some updates.  

I can tell you that those I have spoken with collectively had indicated that Wyndham received a LOT of negative feedback in 2012 about the way the VIP program was rolled out, in not giving sufficient advance notice for people to either provide feedback, or to make purchase decisions that would positively impact grandfathering prior to the actual program effective date.  Therefore, they are sharing more data in advance than they did previously, hence the advanced announcement of Privileges well over a year in advance of the program effective date which is estimated to be late 2020 best we know.  I'm also under the impression from said conversations that those VIP members who may be considering moving to the next VIP level now, will be grandfathered using the current point levels.  I've also been told that Wyndham _may _actually announce the program effective date in early 2020, with an effective for late 2020, and give a time window for VIP members, or prospective VIP purchasers, to make VIP purchase decisions prior to the effective date - to encourage anyone interested in obtaining VIP levels to make developer purchases ahead of the effective date,  but this hasn't been written down anywhere that I've seen, so there's a risk involved at this point in that anyone making a purchase now would have to make an assumption that historic grandfathering rules will still apply.  At the end of the day, each person will have to come to their own conclusions until some kind of official update is provided.


----------



## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> Last I spoke with a SVP in sales/marketing a couple months back now, PIC will stay intact as part of the Privileges rollout.  As others have said, everything is always subject to change, but I know from direct conversations that early on the topic of whether PIC would stay intact was discussed at length in ideation meetings and the consensus agreed upon was that PIC contracts will still be honored as developer point status within Privileges.
> 
> Don’t believe anything the normal sales staff tells you, their job is to sell you developer points to make a commission, and many of them will say just about anything, including the use of dishonest sales tactics to make you fearful you will lose something you currently have, to get you to buy.  It’s unfortunate but often true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its nothing more than a great marketing strategy to sell more points. Many have attended owner updates to hear about the new Privileges only to hear a hard sales pitch filled with lies and bs from sales.


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## 55plus

With all the "white privilege" crap and talk going on, why would Wyndham change VIP to Privilege? Are we now considered privileged to own a timeshare? I don't get it.


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## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> Its nothing more than a great marketing strategy to sell more points. Many have attended owner updates to hear about the new Privileges only to hear a hard sales pitch filled with lies and bs from sales.



You know I have no love for the sales tactics and often refer to their tactics as “pure BS on the part of sales” so no argument there.  In part I attend the updates not only for the WR points, but also to keep my ear close to the ground with respect to the sales tactics.

That said, of course their marketing strategy is designed to sell more developer points.  Wyndham Destinations would go bankrupt without developer points sales so, at least on some level, we need to collectively support the sale of both developer and resale contracts.  My issue lies, pun intended, with the means used to meet the ends.


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## Braindead

55plus said:


> With all the "white privilege" crap and talk going on, why would Wyndham change VIP to Privilege? Are we now considered privileged to own a timeshare? I don't get it.


I think a lot of owners are putting way too much emphasis on the term “Privileges”
It’s a name for a new VIP Program. New point-tier levels, new name
I think we’ll always refer to it as the VIP Program not Privileges
We always refer to VIP levels now Silver-Gold-Platinum & will just switch to the new levels in the future

ARP is a privilege of being an owner


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## Richelle

55plus said:


> With all the "white privilege" crap and talk going on, why would Wyndham change VIP to Privilege? Are we now considered privileged to own a timeshare? I don't get it.



I’m not a fan of the name either.  I think they could have done better. 


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## Richelle

Braindead said:


> I think a lot of owners are putting way too much emphasis on the term “Privileges”
> It’s a name for a new VIP Program. New point-tier levels, new name
> I think we’ll always refer to it as the VIP Program not Privileges
> We always refer to VIP levels now Silver-Gold-Platinum & will just switch to the new levels in the future
> 
> ARP is a privilege of being an owner



Wyndham’s Asia Pacific VIP program is also named Privileges. You would think they would actually try some creativity and originality. Too much to ask I guess. 


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## HitchHiker71

Braindead said:


> I think a lot of owners are putting way too much emphasis on the term “Privileges”
> It’s a name for a new VIP Program. New point-tier levels, new name
> I think we’ll always refer to it as the VIP Program not Privileges
> We always refer to VIP levels now Silver-Gold-Platinum & will just switch to the new levels in the future
> 
> ARP is a privilege of being an owner



Agreed.  In today’s global corporate ecosphere, KISS works best.  If Privileges is already being used in other global regions - the more the underlying program frameworks can be standardized the better off everyone is across the board.  I’m glad to see this, it tells me that Michael Brown actually understands key leadership principles like not making things overly complex for no good reason, and to leverage common frameworks where possible to promote simplicity and efficiency within and across the organization.  Standardize the Privileges naming convention, or whatever common name is ultimately chosen, and standardize the program framework across the globe.


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## Sandy VDH

I know they fiddled with the names, but did they fiddle with the numbers too now.  Or have I just been ignoring the detail since it is all subject to change?


----------



## JJVGHNC

Last I heard, from telesales last Tuesday, point breakdowns and names are same as that brochure.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Sandy VDH said:


> I know they fiddled with the names, but did they fiddle with the numbers too now.  Or have I just been ignoring the detail since it is all subject to change?
> 
> View attachment 14407



Depends on what you mean.  When they changed the naming conventions, they also upped the proposed points levels for the middle three tiers by 100k each.  Champion 400k-->500k.  Ambassador 700k-->800k.  Legends 1MM-->1.1MM.  The lowest and highest tiers - that all just happen to be the net new tiers, Advantage and Founders, did not change.  This is probably a play to eventually get existing owners that will be grandfathered VIP to purchase more points if/when they want to upgrade tiers - because the grandfathering typically does not apply with net new purchases.  Basically it means every current VIP will have to purchase a larger number of net new points to get to the next tier - since they are increasing by 100k ALL middle tiers that ALL existing VIP owners will grandfather from/into.


----------



## JerseyDeb

Is it possible that they will not grandfather you in at the new level?  Went to a recent sales presentation and they kept trying to sell me enough points to get to 400,000 so I would be grandfathered in at silver and then up to the new gold or champion level. Then I called corporate to confirm and was told there is no plan to grandfather anyone in. If I have 400,000 I would only be at the new lowest level of Advantage which has a lot less perks than silver. Would they really drop all those silver people currently under 500,000 to a level with less benefits??


----------



## Richelle

JerseyDeb said:


> Is it possible that they will not grandfather you in at the new level?  Went to a recent sales presentation and they kept trying to sell me enough points to get to 400,000 so I would be grandfathered in at silver and then up to the new gold or champion level. Then I called corporate to confirm and was told there is no plan to grandfather anyone in. If I have 400,000 I would only be at the new lowest level of Advantage which has a lot less perks than silver. Would they really drop all those silver people currently under 500,000 to a level with less benefits??



If you talked to corporate sales, then it makes sense they would tell you there was no plans to grandfather anyone in. They want to make money selling you points. The leaked memo said they are grandfathering people in, including the people who were grandfathered at pre-2012 levels. Obviously the whole “subject to change” means they could change that, however, it wouldn’t make good business sense to do so. I am VIP gold now.  If they dropped me down a tier, do you think I would be willing to spend more money to get back there again?  Absolutely not, and while I am sure there were some who would, many like me would not. If they take away their status, people are not going to want to continue to upgrade only to lose it. While anything is possible, I seriously doubt they will downgrade people’s VIP status or take it away if they didn’t meet the minimum requirements for the lowest level. I know Wyndham looks out for the bottom line (what for profit company doesn’t?), they are not stupid enough to downgrade people so they would be forced to buy more points to keep their VIP status.  It’s more logical, and less risky, to make it look more appealing. 




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## Marisol

Cyrus24 said:


> I know the sales weasels lie!!!  But when they share info without trying to sell me something, I get to where I can’t tell if they are really lying or are they just lost in the previous lies.
> 
> Went to an update today at Emerald Grande, Destin.  Update part was normal except for where the presenter mentioned the new VIP levels that were announced (apparently only to sales) on 5/1/19 effective in 2020.  In the individual meeting, I received a bit more detail.
> 300K for Emerald (15% in the discount window)
> 400K for Gold
> 700k for Platinum
> 1000K for Diamond
> 1400K for Titanium
> Our salesperson even pulled out the note they received and flashed it in front of our eyes.  It looked like it would be shared with Owners on 5/16/19.  I had already had a bit of a contentious conversation with the weasel and was unable to snap a picture of the letter.  I also was not given time to read any of the FAQs.
> 
> I am Gold so I asked about how this would impact me.
> - Would I now be 'new' Platinum?  Only if I bought 64K points.
> - Well, what about my current Gold benefits?  I’d be Grandfathered.
> - Are New Platinum VIP benefits, at the new lower point level the same benefits as current day Platinum owners?  Don’t know.
> 
> At this point we were lost in the weeds and the salesperson seemed lost as well.  We never saw an option for buying more points and were rushed off to gifting.  It was an odd ending to the update.   Unless they were just totally BSing us, we are going to start hearing and seeing more on this change.  Hopefully those attending update sessions in the coming days can gather a bit more info on this change.
> 
> Side note.  The part of our individual session that got contentious was when the salesperson tried to tell me I'd missed the open enrollment period earlier in the year.  What open enrollment period?  For what new benefits?  5 things I was told.  1. New Perks (I have perks),  2.  Club Pass changes (ie. 10 months for WorldMark reservations),  3. New Rewards Card (they wanted me to apply for a new Rewards card, I'm not doing that), 4.  Plus Partners (have that, never saw any value for using) and 5. WWE or World Wide Exchange (I never understood what this was about and I'm sure it's a scam of some sort).
> 
> I always enjoy reading about updates.  Thought I'd share this one, as odd as it was.  The breakfast was good, BTW.



Apparently they still dont know what the tiers are and when they will be effective.  I upgraded to ensure VIP status and apparently I still have none!


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## dgalati

Marisol said:


> Apparently they still dont know what the tiers are and when they will be effective.  I upgraded to ensure VIP status and apparently I still have none!


Dealing with Wyndham sales is like stepping in a pile of cow sh**. At least cow pies have some benefit to the environment.


----------



## Jan M.

Marisol said:


> Apparently they still dont know what the tiers are and when they will be effective.  I upgraded to ensure VIP status and apparently I still have none!



Log into your account and go to News. Under News and What's Happening you will see Privileges. Open it up and you will see all the information that is available at this time. Sales doesn't have anything more than you can read for yourself on the website.

It says that VIPs will retain their equivalent tier in Privileges. The example given is if you are currently silver you will be champion in Privileges. Champion is the second level. Privileges and the associated benefits are in development and anticipated to launch in late 2020.


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## bendadin

Digging this out as questions are still popping up.

Does someone have the Emerald-Titanium screenshot and the date as to when the Advantage-Founder's replaced it?

So we started with Emerald-Titanium, 60% discount, PR included on that page. Was mid-week tidy on that page?
Then it changed to Advantage-Founders, no mention of PR.
Over time the 60% discount for Founders disappeared as did the 15% discount for Advantage. 

This is like a funnel. I wonder what will make it through in the end.


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## HitchHiker71

bendadin said:


> Digging this out as questions are still popping up.
> 
> Does someone have the Emerald-Titanium screenshot and the date as to when the Advantage-Founder's replaced it?
> 
> So we started with Emerald-Titanium, 60% discount, PR included on that page. Was mid-week tidy on that page?
> Then it changed to Advantage-Founders, no mention of PR.
> Over time the 60% discount for Founders disappeared as did the 15% discount for Advantage.
> 
> This is like a funnel. I wonder what will make it through in the end.



The screenshots for both should actually be embedded in this thread already - you just have to go back and find them. 

I spoke to the senior execs at the owners meeting about the fact that some of the content - specifically for the Founders content - like the 60% discount - disappeared.  This was because it’s too costly to offer up the larger discount across the board.  Their current thinking is that they will use a “rotating benefits” approach which is referenced in the current brochure here:






Notice that Club Pass points discounts is listed.  The exec basically said that additional Club Plus points discounts will probably fall under this same rotating benefits approach.  Founders will always get the same 50% that Legends gets, but higher points discounts will be offered on a periodic basis.  This rotating approach will allow Wyndham to better control discount costs over time and to limit the costs into specific time windows.  

If you have any bright ideas, please share them here - I’m sending these execs our ideas to help craft new VIP benefits along this line to help all of us.  


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## bendadin

Get rid of 90% of the sales team and start over?

We also own DVC. We don't get bullied or harassed (or even asked) at the parks. We get invited on their ships but that is as far as it goes. We have never been told our ownership is garbage and that we need different or more. 

Wyndham has a nice product. I just can't figure out why anyone who wears a Wyndham name is allowed to tear it down.


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## HitchHiker71

bendadin said:


> Get rid of 90% of the sales team and start over?
> 
> We also own DVC. We don't get bullied or harassed (or even asked) at the parks. We get invited on their ships but that is as far as it goes. We have never been told our ownership is garbage and that we need different or more.
> 
> Wyndham has a nice product. I just can't figure out why anyone who wears a Wyndham name is allowed to tear it down.



While I agree with the sentiment, constructive VIP specific program improvement recommendations is what I’m after here.  I have no ability to improve/alter the sales practices as part of this effort. 


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## Mr. Phil

If your read the news on their website. Mentioned for months the changes in the levels. Yet do agree most of the sales personnel are wessels.


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## Silverdollar

HitchHiker71 said:


> While I agree with the sentiment, constructive VIP specific program improvement recommendations is what I’m after here.  I have no ability to improve/alter the sales practices as part of this effort.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As we consider new VIP program benefits, I would like for Wyndham to improve their existing benefits. I am a VIPP owner and have observed five VIP benefits that are not practiced consistently by Wyndham resorts:

1. First, is the ability to request specific units. To me, this benefit is important because it can sometimes determine whether I go to that particular resort or another. Some resorts don't take this benefit seriously. It's "hit and miss".
2. Second, is the ability to check-in early (2:00 p.m.). This benefit is "hit and miss". Sometimes you can check in early and other times you have to wait until 4 or later. 
3. Third, is the mid-week clean and tidy. Again, this is "hit and miss". Some resorts take the initiative to do it without you having to ask. Others will do it, but it's like "pulling teeth".
4. Fourth, is the exclusive VIP check-in area. Some resorts have it and others don't. 
5. Fifth, is the complementary USA Today newspaper each weekday morning and a local newspaper on the weekend. Some resorts don't offer this benefit any more. Others you have to call daily to prod them to bring it.

If Wyndham is going to offer VIP benefits, it needs to take them more seriously, and resorts be more consistent in implementation.


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## cbyrne1174

Wyndham Ocean Walk is especially important for requesting specific units. The point chart doesn't let you get a guaranteed ocean front room unless you book a 3 bedroom deluxe or 2 bedroom lock-off. WorldMark has it built into their points chart, so essentially WM resale owners get to have a guaranteed 2 BR Deluxe Ocean Front unit and VIP-G doesn't.

The highest level benefit, Club Pass discounts, is essentially the bonus time and inventory specials that Worldmark resale owners get access to. Anyone with $2,000 can buy a small 10,000 credit WM account and get the same benefit. What's the point of owning 1.4M points?


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## chapjim

cbyrne1174 said:


> Wyndham Ocean Walk is especially important for requesting specific units. The point chart doesn't let you get a guaranteed ocean front room unless you book a 3 bedroom deluxe or 2 bedroom lock-off. WorldMark has it built into their points chart, so essentially WM resale owners get to have a guaranteed 2 BR Deluxe Ocean Front unit and VIP-G doesn't.
> 
> The highest level benefit, Club Pass discounts, is essentially the bonus time and inventory specials that Worldmark resale owners get access to. Anyone with $2,000 can buy a small 10,000 credit WM account and get the same benefit. What's the point of owning 1.4M points?



I pass on a lot of reservations at Ocean Walk for just this reason -- I don't know where the 2BR Deluxe unit is. The only upgrade I'll take is to a 3BR or the cheaper 2BR Lock Off.

On the other hand, places like Ocean Boulevard are too complicated -- building, view, upper or lower.  I haven't completely figured out the upgrade calculus there.  I just keep trying until I get what I'm looking for (or don't).


----------



## Braindead

Silverdollar said:


> As we consider new VIP program benefits, I would like for Wyndham to improve their existing benefits. I am a VIPP owner and have observed five VIP benefits that are not practiced consistently by Wyndham resorts:
> 
> 1. First, is the ability to request specific units. To me, this benefit is important because it can sometimes determine whether I go to that particular resort or another. Some resorts don't take this benefit seriously. It's "hit and miss".
> 2. Second, is the ability to check-in early (2:00 p.m.). This benefit is "hit and miss". Sometimes you can check in early and other times you have to wait until 4 or later.
> 3. Third, is the mid-week clean and tidy. Again, this is "hit and miss". Some resorts take the initiative to do it without you having to ask. Others will do it, but it's like "pulling teeth".
> 4. Fourth, is the exclusive VIP check-in area. Some resorts have it and others don't.
> 5. Fifth, is the complementary USA Today newspaper each weekday morning and a local newspaper on the weekend. Some resorts don't offer this benefit any more. Others you have to call daily to prod them to bring it.
> 
> If Wyndham is going to offer VIP benefits, it needs to take them more seriously, and resorts be more consistent in implementation.


I agree with all your points & would add this one.
I’m ok with discounted reservations for all but VIP discounts should be on top of the discounts to all owners.
If a 100k reservation is discounted 30% to 70k. Then VIPP should be 50% off the 70k making the VIPP owners reservation 35k points.

I’m with you not wanting more VIPP benefits, just make the benefits we have now real instead of maybe benefits!!!
Unit request are no longer request that unit is yours as you reserved it!!!


----------



## Jan M.

HitchHiker71 said:


> The screenshots for both should actually be embedded in this thread already - you just have to go back and find them.
> 
> I spoke to the senior execs at the owners meeting about the fact that some of the content - specifically for the Founders content - like the 60% discount - disappeared.  This was because it’s too costly to offer up the larger discount across the board.  Their current thinking is that they will use a “rotating benefits” approach which is referenced in the current brochure here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice that Club Pass points discounts is listed.  The exec basically said that additional Club Plus points discounts will probably fall under this same rotating benefits approach.  Founders will always get the same 50% that Legends gets, but higher points discounts will be offered on a periodic basis.  This rotating approach will allow Wyndham to better control discount costs over time and to limit the costs into specific time windows.
> 
> If you have any bright ideas, please share them here - I’m sending these execs our ideas to help craft new VIP benefits along this line to help all of us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Unless I missed something, which is entirely possible, the type of rotating benefits Annie Roberts mentioned when she was talking to you, me and a few others after the meeting sure didn't sound like anything worth having. They sounded like the coupons for discounts, a free appetizer with the purchase of a meal, that you find in the booklets or the ones they give you with your stuff at the parking pass desk. 

I also wasn't sure if all inclusive experiences meant all inclusive resorts. Those resorts are primarily in the Caribbean and Mexico and very few of us can drive to any of them. Nor are the all inclusive charges cheap especially if you're talking for a whole family. For many owners a large part of the appeal of having the timeshares is being able to take nice vacations without a lot of additional expenses. Airfare and all inclusive charges for say a family of four is going to be an expensive vacation. I've heard people talk about stays they've had where the all inclusive fees were dirt cheap because it was in the off season. If something like that was offered at some mid to higher end resorts, not the lower end resorts, I could see that having appeal to some owners. 

As I understand it the 60% discount for the Founders level is now off the table because it isn't feasible for Wyndham to do. However maybe it could still be 60% but at select resorts, meaning the resorts in less demand, during the lower demand times. I could actually see that benefiting those resorts and there are a number of owners who would be quite happy to have that benefit.


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## Kozman

The last time I checked in to Smoky Mountains the parking pass Czar informed me that I would have to attend the update to accept my new privileges...that they would not be grandfathered in. More weasel speak?


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## bendadin

Kozman said:


> The last time I checked in to Smoky Mountains the parking pass Czar informed me that I would have to attend the update to accept my new privileges...that they would not be grandfathered in. More weasel speak?



I got that garbage as well at GSM and the Glade. When I pushed the parking pass guy, he really had no idea what that meant.


----------



## Eric B

Kozman said:


> The last time I checked in to Smoky Mountains the parking pass Czar informed me that I would have to attend the update to accept my new privileges...that they would not be grandfathered in. More weasel speak?




I believe it should be “More weasel speak!” rather than “More weasel speak?”


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## vv813

once you go onto the interactive-- where is the brochure and additional info found (know this is still work in process on their part)


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## paxsarah

The link to the current brochure is here: https://www.wyndhaminteractivesaleshub.com/club-wyndham/CW_Privileges.pdf It looks like it was last updated in June. I think it's the only official publication we have at this point. In addition, there's some reporting by forum members from the annual owners meeting a few months ago that I would also consider official (but subject to change at any time) at this point. I wouldn't trust anything coming from sales staff that goes beyond those two sources.


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## OutSkiing

I think it is not necessary to get a deeper discount than the 50% currently offered to VIPP members, but it would be a huge benefit if a discount were more reliably available further in advance than 60 days. Maybe a 25% discount for any and all reservations made out through the 13 month mark, and then the 50% discount for inventory that happens to be left at the 60 day mark.  That would be closer to what was lost when the cancel/rebook was removed.

Rotating benefits does not sound like a reliable benefit .. and does sound like the typical '2 for 1' or 'free appetizer' deals used to reel people in for no fee everywhere.

Bob


----------



## CO skier

OutSkiing said:


> That would be closer to what was lost when the cancel/rebook was removed.


That was not a benefit; it was a loophole used by sales to upsell to VIP levels.

There are good reasons why VIP discounts are limited to Last-Minute reservations.  Wyndham essentially subsidizes the competition for their Extra Holidays program when VIP discounted reservations are rented out.  I do not think Wyndham wants to expand the competition beyond 60 days.


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## cbyrne1174

They could just increase the window to 75 days for discounts and upgrades.


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## bendadin

cbyrne1174 said:


> They could just increase the window to 75 days for discounts and upgrades.



I don't see this as ever happening (except on perhaps rotating benefits on value weeks as "some" resorts) because Wyndham can take inventory at 60 days and then again most of it at 30 days. They are too smart to cut into their own benefits.


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## 55plus

bendadin said:


> I don't see this as ever happening (except on perhaps rotating benefits on value weeks as "some" resorts) because Wyndham can take inventory at 60 days and then again most of it at 30 days. They are too smart to cut into their own benefits.


Who says Wyndham won't start taking inventory at 75 days out?


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## bendadin

.


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## chapjim

Is this a record??  Twenty-two pages and no one has any idea what will happen.


----------



## dgalati

chapjim said:


> Is this a record??  Twenty-two pages and no one has any idea what will happen.


Wyndham daze and confuse.  How much was sold by Wyndham that will not help current owners achieve higher VIP benefits and will be grandfathered in under old rules with current points owned? Great sales strategy to sell more points!


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## Jan M.

dgalati said:


> Wyndham daze and confuse.  How much was sold by Wyndham that will not help current owners achieve higher VIP benefits and will be grandfathered in under old rules with current points owned? Great sales strategy to sell more points!



Anyone who didn't think that Privileges was a marketing scheme to sell more points and it wasn't going to be abused by salespeople is an idiot in my book. Not saying I don't have my own idiot moments but this isn't one of them. Lol.


----------



## lprstn

VIP benefits - I will never upgrade again.
Upgraded to a product that has the ability to keep changing is a set up for the need to upgrade again. I got to Gold and many of the benefits are not consistently provided or honored, either by the inability to do so or them changing them.


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## dgalati

lprstn said:


> VIP benefits - I will never upgrade again.
> Upgraded to a product that has the ability to keep changing is a set up for the need to upgrade again. I got to Gold and many of the benefits are not consistently provided or honored, either by the inability to do so or them changing them.


Whats your take on being able to use resale points as a VIP benefit?


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## Braindead

dgalati said:


> Whats your take on being able to use resale points as a VIP benefit?


Talk about moving on, you’ve been hammering on this for months? Why?
Do you want the cost of your rentals to go up?
Do you want fewer rentals to be available?

Go ahead if you think your mission is to hurt me!! I have enough developer points for my discounts & upgrades!!

Your mission is to hurt yourself & all renters! EH business will increase thanks to you! So go right ahead!!
Last minute Wyndham rentals right here on TUG will dry up!!
Your favorite “ rent from a VIP for less than paying MFs” will be gone!!

Currently your crusade is to hurt ALL owners, renters & Wyndham!!!! Why??


----------



## HitchHiker71

Jan M. said:


> Anyone who didn't think that Privileges was a marketing scheme to sell more points and it wasn't going to be abused by salespeople is an idiot in my book. Not saying I don't have my own idiot moments but this isn't one of them. Lol.



Privileges is the program that will supersede the current VIP program. Of course the sales and marketing division is going to attempt to sell more points.

I guess I’d like to take a step back here and ask a question. Is our collective goal to get Wyndham to never again sell retail timeshare developer points and to bankrupt the organization that manages and oversees the entire timeshare system in the process? 

I’ve always been under the assumption that our goal is to help hold the timeshare companies accountable about their miserable sales and marketing practices yes? That said, at least in some cases the tone of some who post here seems to be more the former and not the latter, which makes little to no sense to me. 

@Jan this isn’t directed at you to be clear, but your post brought this line of thought to my mind. . We all certainly have our idiot moments - it’s part of the human experience to be sure. I have had more than my fair share over time. 


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## Braindead

HitchHiker71 said:


> I guess I’d like to take a step back here and ask a question. Is our collective goal to get Wyndham to never again sell retail timeshare developer points and to bankrupt the organization that manages and oversees the entire timeshare system in the process?
> 
> I’ve always been under the assumption that our goal is to help hold the timeshare companies accountable about their miserable sales and marketing practices yes? That said, at least in some cases the tone of some who post here seems to be the more the former and not the latter, which makes little to no sense to me.


Be ready to be ridiculed, you’re now an Official Wyndham Troll & a shill!!!!!! Welcome to the club!!lol


----------



## Braindead

HitchHiker71 said:


> Privileges is the program that will supersede the current VIP program. Of course the sales and marketing division is going to attempt to sell more points.
> 
> I guess I’d like to take a step back here and ask a question. Is our collective goal to get Wyndham to never again sell retail timeshare developer points and to bankrupt the organization that manages and oversees the entire timeshare system in the process?
> 
> I’ve always been under the assumption that our goal is to help hold the timeshare companies accountable about their miserable sales and marketing practices yes? That said, at least in some cases the tone of some who post here seems to be the more the former and not the latter, which makes little to no sense to me.
> 
> @Jan this isn’t directed at you to be clear, but your post brought this line of thought to my mind. . We all certainty have our idiot moments - it’s part of the human experience to be sure. I have made more than my fair share over time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





So you know what I was talking about. Oh & yes notice who likes it. We’re not alone as dgalati says ”there are many agents”


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## Braindead

I for one think this forum & maybe TUG altogether has become a joke!!
 I’ll never recommend another Wyndham owner to checkout TUG as long as this crap is tolerated!!!!!!


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## Jan M.

HitchHiker71 said:


> Privileges is the program that will supersede the current VIP program. Of course the sales and marketing division is going to attempt to sell more points.
> 
> I guess I’d like to take a step back here and ask a question. Is our collective goal to get Wyndham to never again sell retail timeshare developer points and to bankrupt the organization that manages and oversees the entire timeshare system in the process?
> 
> I’ve always been under the assumption that our goal is to help hold the timeshare companies accountable about their miserable sales and marketing practices yes? That said, at least in some cases the tone of some who post here seems to be the more the former and not the latter, which makes little to no sense to me.
> 
> @Jan this isn’t directed at you to be clear, but your post brought this line of thought to my mind. . We all certainty have our idiot moments - it’s part of the human experience to be sure. I have made more than my fair share over time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



In case OP aren't aware HitchHiker71 and I are very much in agreement about Wyndham having a quality product but how their outmoded sales practices don't reflect that. We acknowledge the problems they face in restructuring their sales model but both believe it can be done and at some future date will have to be done for them to stay a viable business in this age of information.

Many of us do understand that Wyndham is a business and the goal of a business is to make money. Definition: Business is the activity of making one's living or making money by producing or buying and selling products (such as goods and services).  However there are some people who seem to labor under some  misapprehensions in regards to that.

I can tell you what was on my mind when I posted my remark. I had just switched over to reading the TUG threads after being on Facebook and seeing all the posts in the two Wyndham owners groups I belong to. Seeing over and over ad nauseam the ridiculous number of naive and indignant posts in those Facebook groups and the content of those posts about "I was lied to by the Wyndham sales people" and then coming here on TUG and seeing more of the same thing pushed me over my limit. If you've bought directly from Wyndham, especially if you've bought more than once, gone to sales presentations and updates and can say you were never, ever lied to then you are a timeshare unicorn. That is pretty much true of all the timeshare companies with the possible exception being Disney Vacation Club.

However what really bothers me about it is the people who appear to use every opportunity they can find to denigrate Wyndham and/or VIP/Privileges and cast shade on the people they consider fools for spending the money to have those benefits. They take every opportunity to shove that knife in about how those benefits can change or disappear. They seem to take unholy joy in inciting those naive and indignant people into becoming Wyndham or VIP/Privileges haters. It frustrates me to see the naive and indignant owners fall prey to being manipulated by those people. One of us, join us on the dark side and be one of us. I'm making a joke about it but that's what it feels like to me.


----------



## 55plus

Jan M. said:


> However what really bothers me about it is the people who appear to use every opportunity they can find to denigrate Wyndham and/or VIP/Privileges and cast shade on the people they consider fools for spending the money to have those benefits. They take every opportunity to shove that knife in about how those benefits can change or disappear. They seem to take unholy joy in inciting those naive and indignant people into becoming Wyndham or VIP/Privileges haters. It frustrates me to see the naive and indignant owners fall prey to being manipulated by those people. One of us, join us on the dark side and be one of us. I'm making a joke about it but that's what it feels like to me.


It's resentment or jealousy on there part, pure and simple.


----------



## HitchHiker71

Jan M. said:


> In case OP aren't aware HitchHiker71 are very much in agreement about Wyndham having a quality product but how their outmoded sales practices don't reflect that. We acknowledge the problems they face in restructuring their sales model but both believe it can be done and at some future date will have to be done for them to stay a viable business in this age of information.
> 
> Many of us do understand that Wyndham is a business and the goal of a business is to make money. Definition: Business is the activity of making one's living or making money by producing or buying and selling products (such as goods and services). However there are some people who seem to labor under some misapprehensions in regards to that.
> 
> I can tell you what was on my mind when I posted my remark. I had just switched over to reading the TUG threads after being on Facebook and seeing all the posts in the two Wyndham owners groups I belong to. Seeing over and over ad nauseam the ridiculous number of naive and indignant posts in those Facebook groups and the content of those posts about "I was lied to by the Wyndham sales people"and then coming here on TUG and seeing more of the same thing pushed me over my limit. If you've bought directly from Wyndham, especially if you've bought more than once, gone to sales presentations and updates and can say you were never, ever lied to then you are a timeshare unicorn. That is pretty much true of all the timeshare companies with the possible exception being Disney Vacation Club.
> 
> However what really bothers me about it is the people who appear to use every opportunity they can find to denigrate Wyndham and/or VIP/Privileges and cast shade on the people they consider fools for spending the money to have those benefits. They take every opportunity to shove that knife in about how those benefits can change or disappear. They seem to take unholy joy in inciting those naive and indignant people into becoming Wyndham or VIP/Privileges haters. It frustrates me to see the naive and indignant owners fall prey to being manipulated by those people. One of us, join us on the dark side and be one of us. I'm making a joke about it but that's what it feels like to me.



Jan thanks for taking the time to express in lucid detail what I so tersely was attempting to elucidate. I’m two days out from an unplanned ER visit and not quite myself so please know I do very much agree 100% with what you’ve written here and agree with your frustrations expressed regarding the subset of posters here on TUG who take the endless opportunities to unconstructively and repetitively pile on to the negative narrative so to speak. It’s almost like a competition of sorts is somehow in play, for what exactly I’m uncertain, but regardless I for one always try to consciously choose cooperation, which is the stronger and better of the two choices IME.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jan M.

HitchHiker71 said:


> I’m two days out from an unplanned ER visit



Sorry to hear that. I hope you are feeling much better soon!


----------



## SNA27

I get a strange satisfaction, almost amounting to vindication, reading the above posts by fellow shills, trolls and agents of Wyndham!


----------



## SNA27

I scored a debut century or a 'Gordie Howe Hat trick' according to @T-Dot-Traveller with my first post a month ago! I still have all kinds of ideas about how to shore up resale values. I decided it's better to write CEO Michael Brown about it rather than post them here! I have learnt a lot on TUGBBS since and hopefully my ideas will be more polished!


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## Braindead

Want to break Wyndham or help put them out of business, look no farther than TUG
This is ridiculous!!!! Wyndham took it easy on owners & TUG allows it to be broadcast so more will do the same without giving it a second thought!!


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## Grammarhero

Braindead said:


> View attachment 15883
> Want to break Wyndham or help put them out of business, look no farther than TUG
> This is ridiculous!!!! Wyndham took it easy on owners & TUG allows it to be broadcast so more will do the same without giving it a second thought!!



I’m trying to help TS owners who are no longer able to afford Wyndham, who are worried about their credit scores, and deficiency judgments.

[_Personal observations directed at another poster have been deleted.  Address the topic/issue , not each other._]


----------



## Grammarhero

Braindead said:


> View attachment 15883
> Want to break Wyndham or help put them out of business, look no farther than TUG
> This is ridiculous!!!! Wyndham took it easy on owners & TUG allows it to be broadcast so more will do the same without giving it a second thought!!


@Jan M. @bendadin @raygo123 @Eric B @Cyrus24 , is this what you support?  A tugger’s six-day long, and counting, personal crusade to condemn and discredit another tugger? After everyone else wanted to move on? Seriously, I said that I would no longer post on TUG Wyndham here, as long as I wasn’t personally attacked. [Personal attack removed] @Braindead.


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## Braindead

Grammarhero said:


> I’m trying to help TS owners who are no longer able to afford Wyndham, who are worried about their credit scores, and deficiency judgments.
> 
> [_Personal observations directed at another poster have been deleted.  Address the topic/issue , not each other._]


That statement is not accurate. Half truths like TS sales people.
You’ve also helped owners that could easily pay their bills. I’ll show examples if you wish
As I’ve said if an owner literally can’t pay their bills it doesn’t matter what state their in or what it does to their credit score.


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## Grammarhero

Braindead said:


> That statement is not accurate. Half truths like TS sales people.
> You’ve also helped owners that could easily pay their bills. I’ll show examples if you wish
> As I’ve said if an owner literally can’t pay their bills it doesn’t matter what state their in or what it does to their credit score.


Live your life judging other people.  [Personal attack removed]  I prefer my TUG legacy to be helping and not judging others, yes even financially irresponsible TS owners.  Yes, even my financial irresponsible clients with character flaws who spend more than I do, dug themselves into a hole, in which I had to get them out.

it’s so sad your TUG legacy will be just condemning other TS owners and not helping them.


----------



## cbyrne1174

55plus said:


> It's resentment or jealousy on there part, pure and simple.



For me I chose not to purchase VIP because of what the members on here tell me. The majority of my stays are in Orlando and Daytona and Wyndham doesn't honor the ability to request units at Bonnet Creek, Reunion or Ocean Walk. If I make a huge retail purchase, I should be able to get  a fireworks view at Bonnet Creek if I book it 10 months out during a non-holiday week. At Daytona, I should be able to get one of the one or two bedrooms that are Ocean front at 10 months out. Also, the benefits are only good really only for last minute stays (discounts) and short stays (unlimited RT and HK), and I can get something similar using bonus time with a resale Worldmark contract. Also, if I no longer want my contracts, I can get out of them relatively easily without having sunk in $27,000 for VIPG or $66,000 for VIPP. I'd rather spend my money on a DVC ownership since I can at least sell it for close to what I paid. 

That being said, it's more what the perceived value is. My husband drools over the $80,000  2020 GT 500 Mustang because of it's insane horsepower and I find it a huge waste of money because cars have the worst depreciation and there's no practical use for 760 horse power, but to him it goes VROOOM and therefore he wants it.


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## SNA27

@Braindead @Grammarhero
Excuse me guys, when a thread is locked, you don't carry a 'very personally directed' fight onto some other thread and get it locked too! Please start a new thread!


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## Cyrus24

Grammarhero said:


> @Jan M. @bendadin @raygo123 @Eric B @Cyrus24 , is this what you support?  A tugger’s six-day long, and counting, personal crusade to condemn and discredit another tugger? After everyone else wanted to move on? Seriously, I said that I would no longer post on TUG Wyndham here, as long as I wasn’t personally attacked.  Evidentially, that was not enough for Martyr Complex @Braindead.


I recognize that a retail points Wyndham ownership is not for everyone so I support the work this site does in helping the unsuspecting rescind and helping those that need to exit an ownership accomplish that exit.   I also appreciate the help given to those that want a VIP ownership.  I happen to be a very a happy VIPP owner, so, I want Wyndham to be around for a while.  And, I don't want Wyndham taking away benefits.  What I don't like coming from some members of this board are attacks on those of us who own developer points.  Remember, were it not for us, there would be no Wyndham.  I have opinions on the variety of legal schemes that board members are involved in and those opinions generally fall into the 'be careful not to hurt yourself or other members' category.  While I can not speak for individual owners, I see that some speak from a total long term ownership perspective while others speak from a more short term personal owner perspective.  Meaning, our perspectives on 'schemes', renting, VIP benefit reductions, etc. will be different.  And those difference in opinions can be quite strong.


Grammarhero said:


> [Personal attack removed], I’d rather die or consider myself a failure.


Easy.  You are coming off as being a bit judgmental.  Just saying.  We all need a break.


SNA27 said:


> @Braindead @Grammarhero
> Excuse me guys, when a thread is locked, you don't carry a 'very personally directed' fight onto some other thread and get it locked too! Please start a new thread!


Agree.


----------



## Grammarhero

SNA27 said:


> @Braindead @Grammarhero
> Excuse me guys, when a thread is locked, you don't carry a 'very personally directed' fight onto some other thread and get it locked too! Please start a new thread!


I will return back to my self-imposed TUG Wyndham exile, unless personally attacked again.


----------



## Fredflintstone

Braindead said:


> That statement is not accurate. Half truths like TS sales people.
> You’ve also helped owners that could easily pay their bills. I’ll show examples if you wish
> As I’ve said if an owner literally can’t pay their bills it doesn’t matter what state their in or what it does to their credit score.



@Braindead,

I will only comment on this one last time.

Ask yourself:

1. Do you or do you not believe everyone has a right to have full access to legal information regardless of topic, income, race, culture, disability, gender or age?
2. Do you or do you not believe Wyndham has resources to defend their interests?






3. Do you or do you not believe you are authorized to speak on behalf of Wyndham? If so, please supply evidence of same.

4. Do you or do you not have access to the bank accounts and assets of those who you claim can afford MF or is that an assumption on your part? If so, please supply evidence of same.


If you are an owner, why not focus on why you love your Wyndham Ownership instead of worrying about what others choose to do?

I am sure you have a lot of good things to share as an owner. If you are an employee or authorized representative, please state that and tell us the wonderful things Wyndham offers its owners. Either way, you can be a valuable resource.

IMO, leave the legal pieces to Wyndham’s law department. I can tell you after reading many Wyndham contracts, they are cracker jacks who protects Wyndham’s interests well.

As for Owners, let them decide which direction they wish to go with their Wyndham ownership. 

As for @Grammarhero, providing legal information is lawful. As an attorney, providing legal advice is lawful too. HE IS DOING NOTHING WRONG. So, please move on.

Thank you.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SNA27

@Braindead, I must object to your crusade against @Grammarhero. You should not be afraid of free speech. It's an elitist view to think that the speech of which you don't approve must be suppressed lest unwashed masses be corrupted!
Corruptible will be corrupted in spite of protection and the incorruptible will never be corrupted in spite of exposure! That's the nature of man and this universe!


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## SNA27

I believe we're all divine spirits with our own internal magnetism and a moral compass! Our moral compass will be guided by our internal magnetism and external magnets will have scant influence on our moral compass if our internal magnets are strong!


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## cbyrne1174

Archie Bunker vs Extreme Couponer.


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## SNA27

I love Archie Bunker however un-PC he was! So I am going to say @Grammarhero is Archie Bunker and @Braindead is Extreme Couponer!
But wait, why the hell would they be opposed to each other, pray tell? [Comment removed by moderator]


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## SmithOp

SNA27 said:


> I believe we're all divine spirits with our own internal magnetism and a moral compass! Our moral compass will be guided by our internal magnetism and external magnets will have scant influence on our moral compass if our internal magnets are strong!



I just spent a nice week in Sedona to celebrate my 66th circuit around the sun. I visited several vortexes which helped realign my internal magnetism, I highly recommend it!

PS: I think we might be neighbors, I live 10 min from SNA.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## dgalati

SmithOp said:


> I just spent a nice week in Sedona to celebrate my 66th circuit around the sun. I visited several vortexes which helped realign my internal magnetism, I highly recommend it!
> 
> PS: I think we might be neighbors, I live 10 min from SNA.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Sedona was one of the most beautiful areas we have visited next to Mt St Helens and Columbia gorge area of Washington state. My wife and I enjoyed the daily hikes along with the beautiful scenery and many small hometown restaurants. I Highly recommend this location. P. S. Thats why @SNA  is refered to the Duke on the TUG boards.


----------



## Braindead

HitchHiker71 said:


> Privileges is the program that will supersede the current VIP program. Of course the sales and marketing division is going to attempt to sell more points.
> 
> I guess I’d like to take a step back here and ask a question. Is our collective goal to get Wyndham to never again sell retail timeshare developer points and to bankrupt the organization that manages and oversees the entire timeshare system in the process?
> 
> I’ve always been under the assumption that our goal is to help hold the timeshare companies accountable about their miserable sales and marketing practices yes? That said, at least in some cases the tone of some who post here seems to be more the former and not the latter, which makes little to no sense to me.
> 
> @Jan this isn’t directed at you to be clear, but your post brought this line of thought to my mind. . We all certainly have our idiot moments - it’s part of the human experience to be sure. I have had more than my fair share over time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Jan M. said:


> In case OP aren't aware HitchHiker71 and I are very much in agreement about Wyndham having a quality product but how their outmoded sales practices don't reflect that. We acknowledge the problems they face in restructuring their sales model but both believe it can be done and at some future date will have to be done for them to stay a viable business in this age of information.
> 
> Many of us do understand that Wyndham is a business and the goal of a business is to make money. Definition: Business is the activity of making one's living or making money by producing or buying and selling products (such as goods and services).  However there are some people who seem to labor under some  misapprehensions in regards to that.
> 
> I can tell you what was on my mind when I posted my remark. I had just switched over to reading the TUG threads after being on Facebook and seeing all the posts in the two Wyndham owners groups I belong to. Seeing over and over ad nauseam the ridiculous number of naive and indignant posts in those Facebook groups and the content of those posts about "I was lied to by the Wyndham sales people" and then coming here on TUG and seeing more of the same thing pushed me over my limit. If you've bought directly from Wyndham, especially if you've bought more than once, gone to sales presentations and updates and can say you were never, ever lied to then you are a timeshare unicorn. That is pretty much true of all the timeshare companies with the possible exception being Disney Vacation Club.
> 
> However what really bothers me about it is the people who appear to use every opportunity they can find to denigrate Wyndham and/or VIP/Privileges and cast shade on the people they consider fools for spending the money to have those benefits. They take every opportunity to shove that knife in about how those benefits can change or disappear. They seem to take unholy joy in inciting those naive and indignant people into becoming Wyndham or VIP/Privileges haters. It frustrates me to see the naive and indignant owners fall prey to being manipulated by those people. One of us, join us on the dark side and be one of us. I'm making a joke about it but that's what it feels like to me.


I want to bump HitchHiker71 & Jan M. excellent posts back up to get this thread back on topic.
I thought my post last night was on topic with their post.
Obviously others didn’t see it on topic. For that apologize to ALL.
I also didn’t expect to see the absolute hatred the next poster showed[screenshot above] with someone liking that hatred within 5 minutes.
For that to come from a TUG Leader is unbelievable to me.

I don’t know if others have noticed the drop off of some regular posters in this forum over the last 6 months like I & others have!!
A couple of months ago I received a very nice thoughtful PM from a regular poster asking if I was alright since I hadn’t posted much lately. Yes I was alright just tired of the crap.
I believe this forum is going down hill fast.
You can no longer say you’re a proud happy Wyndham Owner little alone say your a proud happy VIP Wyndham Owner on this forum & feel good about it.
I remember a thread a poster wanted to know if there are any happy Wyndham owners here.
Think about that for a little while. Why would that be a question that needs answered??
We’ve lost more regular posters this week not just me.

From my wife of almost 40 years[the only one I’ve had] & I along with our close knit family with children & grandchildren,
We wish all the Wyndham Owners,Trolls , Agents & all families on TUG a prosperous 2020
and a Happy New Year!!!!


----------



## Cyrus24

Braindead said:


> We wish all the Wyndham Owners,Trolls , Agents & all families on TUG a prosperous 2020
> and a Happy New Year!!!!


Happy New Year to you and your family, BD!!!


----------



## CO skier

Braindead said:


> I believe this forum is going down hill fast.


Like a 4-man bobsled with no brakes, "... if it’s going sideways, it’s not going forward.”

Ain't that the truth.






Happy 2020 to all.


----------



## Grammarhero

Braindead said:


> View attachment 15906
> 
> I want to bump HitchHiker71 & Jan M. excellent posts back up to get this thread back on topic.
> I thought my post last night was on topic with their post.
> Obviously others didn’t see it on topic. For that apologize to ALL.
> I also didn’t expect to see the absolute hatred the next poster showed[screenshot above] with someone liking that hatred within 5 minutes.
> For that to come from a TUG Leader is unbelievable to me.
> 
> I don’t know if others have noticed the drop off of some regular posters in this forum over the last 6 months like I & others have!!
> A couple of months ago I received a very nice thoughtful PM from a regular poster asking if I was alright since I hadn’t posted much lately. Yes I was alright just tired of the crap.
> I believe this forum is going down hill fast.
> You can no longer say you’re a proud happy Wyndham Owner little alone say your a proud happy VIP Wyndham Owner on this forum & feel good about it.
> I remember a thread a poster wanted to know if there are any happy Wyndham owners here.
> Think about that for a little while. Why would that be a question that needs answered??
> We’ve lost more regular posters this week not just me.
> 
> From my wife of almost 40 years[the only one I’ve had] & I along with our close knit family with children & grandchildren,
> We wish all the Wyndham Owners,Trolls , Agents & all families on TUG a prosperous 2020
> and a Happy New Year!!!!


I apologize.  I lost my cool.  I said things that were off-mark and out-of-line.  Obviously, I was frustrated with the nearly week long disagreement.  I spent dozens of hours researching and compiling TS state law tables, and to see its helpfulness being questioned was disheartening to me.

Back to my TUG Wyndham self-exile.


----------



## Fredflintstone

Grammarhero said:


> I apologize. I lost my cool. I said things that were off-mark and out-of-line. Obviously, I was frustrated with the nearly week long disagreement. I spent dozens of hours researching and compiling TS state law tables, and to see its helpfulness being questioned was disheartening to me.
> 
> Back to my TUG Wyndham self-exile.



In my mind, you done right with all the work you did on your own time and during the holiday season. Thank you for all you did and are doing! Happy New Year to you and your family.

BD, I do wish you all the best in the New Year as well. May you have a very healthy and happy 2020!

And to everyone else, a very Happy New Year! May your future travels be rewarding and memorable! Good health to all as well!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dgalati

Grammarhero said:


> I apologize.  I lost my cool.  I said things that were off-mark and out-of-line.  Obviously, I was frustrated with the nearly week long disagreement.  I spent dozens of hours researching and compiling TS state law tables, and to see its helpfulness being questioned was disheartening to me.
> 
> Back to my TUG Wyndham self-exile.


Thank you for your contributions to helping many that are in need of this useful information. Happy New years to all. I am thankful for all the information and helpful posts that helped me understand the Wyndham system and timesharing industry.


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> Like a 4-man bobsled with no brakes, "... if it’s going sideways, it’s not going forward.”
> 
> Ain't that the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy 2020 to all.


Haha! Couldn't you find another example without besmirching the Italians? Where is Ron P. When you need backup?


----------



## HitchHiker71

Wow, I certainly didn’t mean for my posts to incite a firestorm nor to reignite old flames so to speak, so for that I apologize. That said, I expected what I was asking to certainly incite some healthy debate of course. 

To return to the topic at hand, I expect we will learn some additional information specific to Privileges in the early part of 2020. Hang tight until then folks. Happy New Year to all in the interim! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dgalati

HitchHiker71 said:


> Wow, I certainly didn’t mean for my posts to incite a firestorm nor to reignite old flames so to speak, so for that I apologize. That said, I expected what I was asking to certainly incite some healthy debate of course.
> 
> To return to the topic at hand, I expect we will learn some additional information specific to Privileges in the early part of 2020. Hang tight until then folks. Happy New Year to all in the interim!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks hitchhiker for all your positive posts and knowledge. May you have a healthy and happy new year .


----------



## Manzana

Happy New Year to everyone.  I look forward to meeting you all one day on a family vacation.


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## SNA27

It's good to remember that Wyndham has many fine resorts and are run by some of the very best people! While grousing about their sales tactics, we must remember that we won't have anything to do with Wyndham if their resorts are poorly run or ill-maintained.

I fondly remember the exceptional service I received at Wyndham Vacation Resorts Towers on the Grove at North Myrtle Beach in February 2019. I had booked a 1BR Oceanfront (with VIP upgrade from Studio OF). My wife hated the layout with the kitchen and bathroom opposite each other in a long narrow apartment. I could see online that a 2BR was available and I went to the reception soon after check-in and asked if I could pay the additional points and move to the 2BR. I had worked out all the point difference. She said she will have to get the manager's approval but I will have to pay a lot more points than I had calculated. Anyway, we ended up staying in the 1BR the first night! (2/14 and our anniversary!)

The next morning I went down to see if they have gotten the approval. The manager seemed very busy. Wife and I wait patiently. He finally comes and sits with us next to our sofa and understands the situation. Then he gets his people to move us to a beautiful Corner 2BR OF on the 8th Floor. He's a CA native from SFO and he feels we, as Platinum members, should have been accommodated immediately the previous night since 2BRs were available. He apologizes and waives all the point difference. On top of this, he sends his people to get us a gift card for $100 just for the inconvenience. Not the Amex one which charges you $3 per month. A totally fee-less Visa debit card! 2BR OF right in the corner was a beautiful apartment. The manager's name is Dan Hudson!

Recently in July, we bumped into him Wyndham Nashville. He had just taken over recently as the manager for that beautiful resort! He has extensive experience in the Hospitality business and he's a fine gentleman! I have no doubt he will go places within Wyndham! We weren't eligible to attend the presentation or for the gifts BECAUSE WE HAD JUST BOUGHT at Fairfield Glades! He goes to the concierge and asks to get us some sightseeing pass. He tells them to charge to his CC. But I had to refuse. Wyndham gifting me is one thing but him paying is something else! I could see Nashville staff seem to really like him!

So remembering people like Dan Hudson or Michael Neal Atkins and several other great people I have met, I have no regrets about my hefty investment in Wyndham! Kudos to all those people and many unnamed hardworking people who make Wyndham Resorts an enjoyable experience!

Happy New Year to you all! May 2020 be better than years before! I am counting on it! God bless!


----------



## SNA27

"We recently bought' could be a great excuse to get out of being WOWtured!
When I mentioned it to the Concierge at Nashville, her face drooped and she couldn't get rid of us fast enough!
Next stop Glacier Canyon (check-in for Sundara Cottages): I didn't mention it, the concierge was thrilled to sign us up for WOW! I was promised all kinds of gifts! But next morning I got a call at the Cottage telling us we don't qualify to attend! When we showed up at Glacier Canyon to find information about sightseeing, the manager of the concierge apologized and gave us a big brownie chocolate cake!

On to Chicago. And the Concierge thinks it doesn't matter. But he calls upstairs and finally gives up on us as PNG because WE BOUGHT RECENTLY!
On to Austin. The most persistent Concierge. He just wouldn't give up! He makes frantic calls and finally gives up!
San Antonio. The 14-day quarantine period for accursed buyers is over! Thank God, it was just a low-pressure site. The guy interviews us and gets our feedback and lets us go!

And I am finally rid of all my Amex cards with $3 fees deducted. My sons helped us blow it all! And gifted the $100 Visa to my son's caretaker! We have to go and undergo some WOWture and acquire more of those Amex cards we never seem to use in time!


----------



## Eric B

SNA27 said:


> "We recently bought' could be a great excuse to get out of being WOWtured!
> When I mentioned it to the Concierge at Nashville, her face drooped and she couldn't get rid of us fast enough!
> Next stop Glacier Canyon (check-in for Sundara Cottages): I didn't mention it, the concierge was thrilled to sign us up for WOW! I was promised all kinds of gifts! But next morning I got a call at the Cottage telling us we don't qualify to attend! When we showed up at Glacier Canyon to find information about sightseeing, the manager of the concierge apologized and gave us a big brownie chocolate cake!
> 
> On to Chicago. And the Concierge thinks it doesn't matter. But he calls upstairs and finally gives up on us as PNG because WE BOUGHT RECENTLY!
> On to Austin. The most persistent Concierge. He just wouldn't give up! He makes frantic calls and finally gives up!
> San Antonio. The 14-day quarantine period for accursed buyers is over! Thank God, it was just a low-pressure site. The guy interviews us and gets our feedback and lets us go!
> 
> And I am finally rid of all my Amex cards with $3 fees deducted. My sons helped us blow it all! And gifted the $100 Visa to my son's caretaker! We have to go and undergo some WOWture and acquire more of those Amex cards!



If Club Wyndham won't WOW you in Austin, you might ask if you can get WOWed by WorldMark.  The body snatchers there work for both.  If you do get to a sales pitch (or even if you don't), the good coffee machine is on the east side of the 22nd floor and does a grind and brew, also a decent cappuccino & macchiato.  (I'm an effete coffee snob, after living in Italy for several years, in addition to being an effete beer snob.)  The one in the waiting room they take you to near the elevator is one of the type you put a packet in to make muddy tasting brown water.

You should look up Brandon the maintenance guy there; he gave us much better local tips and recommendations than the folks in the lobby.


----------



## SNA27

Effete? Are you sure?


----------



## SNA27

Eric B said:


> If Club Wyndham won't WOW you in Austin, you might ask if you can get WOWed by WorldMark.  The body snatchers there work for both.  If you do get to a sales pitch (or even if you don't), the good coffee machine is on the east side of the 22nd floor and does a grind and brew, also a decent cappuccino & macchiato.  (I'm an effete coffee snob, after living in Italy for several years, in addition to being an effete beer snob.)  The one in the waiting room they take you to near the elevator is one of the type you put a packet in to make muddy tasting brown water.
> 
> You should look up Brandon the maintenance guy there; he gave us much better local tips and recommendations than the folks in the lobby.



I stayed on the 18th floor 2 BR PR. I didn't know I could have gone up and gotten good coffee instead of going down to the lobby! 10th floor didn't have much!


----------



## Eric B

From the 12 Beers of Xmas thread:



Carol C said:


> I saw something on tv, was it this morning on CBS Sunday Morning, about some company where the gal "discovered" some kind of "beach  violets" or something, a wildflower...and turned it into a special fermented brew for effete snobs, er, I mean, high-end consumers. Kinda makes me want to throw up...and I haven't even drunk anything today!





Eric B said:


> ... doing my best not to react, but secretly pleased at being called an effete snob.  At least she didn't accuse me of being a hipster....



Wasn't my characterization initially, by I'm good with the decadence part....


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> I stayed on the 18th floor 2 BR PR. I didn't know I could have gone up and gotten good coffee instead of going down to the lobby! 10th floor didn't have much!


Patience grasshopper.


----------



## SNA27

@Eric B, If I were you, I would've disaWOWed 'effete' and insisted on being at best a 'gourmet' or at worst a 'gourmand'! And ridiculed her affinity to swill!


----------



## SNA27

dgalati said:


> Patience grasshopper.



The guy who died from fatal autoerotic asphyxiation is going to show me the way! Haha!


----------



## SNA27

Braindead said:


> From my wife of almost 40 years[the only one I’ve had] & I along with our close knit family with children & grandchildren,
> We wish all the Wyndham Owners,Trolls , Agents & all families on TUG a prosperous 2020
> and a Happy New Year!!!!



37 years and no daughters-in-law and no grandchildren! Pity me! You obviously are way ahead of me in this game called 'life'! Salud! Namaste!

I would like to assure you that it's not all bleak as you seem to have resigned yourself to believe! 
Wyndham is the brand! As long as it upholds itself such that it's coveted by resale buyers and rent-from-VIP fanboys, it's all good!
I would only start worrying if the resorts are not maintained properly and nobody wants to have anything to do with Wyndham and don't even grouse about its sales weasels!

I wish you a very happy new year! I hope 2020 is as great as I am counting on it to be! God Bless you and yours!


----------



## Braindead

SNA27 said:


> 37 years and no daughters-in-law and no grandchildren! Pity me! You obviously are way ahead of me in this game called 'life'! Salud! Namaste!
> 
> I would like to assure you that it's not all bleak as you seem to have resigned yourself to believe!
> Wyndham is the brand! As long as it upholds itself such that it's coveted by resale buyers and rent-from-VIP fanboys, it's all good!
> I would only start worrying if the resorts are not maintained properly and nobody wants to have anything to do with Wyndham and don't even grouse about its sales weasels!
> 
> I wish you a very happy new year! I hope 2020 is as great as I am counting on it to be! God Bless you and yours!


I am a very happy proud Wyndham VIP Platinum PR owner!!
At a Margaritaville Resort now in a 3 br PR unit with family, this morning we sat on the balcony having a cup of coffee talking with the grandkids while listening & watching the waves. Priceless!!!! I have no regrets on our purchases from Wyndham!
As Cyrus24 posted most of us have a story of hard times in our lives. I was within an eyelash of bankruptcy in the 80s so like many here I survived & thrived.

I was referring to here on TUG.
Most of the regular posters that have left or haven’t  posted much in the last few months are VIPs: Why??
It‘s been posted that:
It’s stupid -fools with their $$ - worst thing that you could do- it never pays for itself to buy from Wyndham.
Let me be clear a TS purchase should not be financed!! Wyndham sales practices are horrible !!
But I will say we’ve found a couple of sales people that are very honest & helpful!! I can text or call anytime & get an answer!

I’m tired of being falsely accused & then beaten to a pulp with it. Example is in the locked thread:
”How many thousands of TS owners have stopped paying MFs due to what they read in your post? We don’t know”
A question that the answer could be 0!!  Instead I’m beaten over the head saying I ACCUSED someone for thousands of owners not paying MFs.

I’ve been self employed my entire career & from a business standpoint here’s something I’d do if I was in charge at Wyndham.
Resell owners are my least favorite customer base staying at the resorts. Why? They’re the least likely to buy from Wyndham. There a few of us that purchased resell & then made purchases from Wyndham to be VIPs but we’re very rare purchasers.
I would tell the resorts to give them the worst units. Why? give them every incentive possible to come buy from Wyndham. Yet resell owners ask for units as if they’re VIPs & sometimes get upset when they’re told no. I don’t blame them for asking but I wouldn’t honor those request saying if you want better treatment come make a purchase.

Renters: I have a better chance of making a sell here verses a resell owner. We’ve had reports here that renters on an owner rental have made purchases from Wyndham. I’d give this group the middle of the road units.

VIPs & direct purchases: do everything I can for them including giving them the best units. They can be my best advertisers & endorsers of my great product. They’re more apt to be a repeat buyer from Wyndham.

On Privileges: I look for a ho hum when everything is done.
Why not just change the point requirements & add 2 new levels? New CEO wants new VIP name.
I’ll repeat myself by saying I don’t need new benefits just give me the benefits that I should be getting now like room request should be mandated that the resorts honor the request.


----------



## CO skier

dgalati said:


> Haha! Couldn't you find another example without besmirching the Italians? Where is Ron P. When you need backup?


It was not four Italians I was thinking of.  That was an allegory for those I think are driving this forum downhill fast.  (I could not find a 6-man bobsled video).  Congratulations on (barely) making the four-man cut, but every Wyndham forum reader, I am sure, have their own downhill team in mind.


----------



## capital city

Braindead said:


> I am a very happy proud Wyndham VIP Platinum PR owner!!
> At a Margaritaville Resort now in a 3 br PR unit with family, this morning we sat on the balcony having a cup of coffee talking with the grandkids while listening & watching the waves. Priceless!!!! I have no regrets on our purchases from Wyndham!
> As Cyrus24 posted most of us have a story of hard times in our lives. I was within an eyelash of bankruptcy in the 80s so like many here I survived & thrived.
> 
> I was referring to here on TUG.
> Most of the regular posters that have left or haven’t  posted much in the last few months are VIPs: Why??
> It‘s been posted that:
> It’s stupid -fools with their $$ - worst thing that you could do- it never pays for itself to buy from Wyndham.
> Let me be clear a TS purchase should not be financed!! Wyndham sales practices are horrible !!
> But I will say we’ve found a couple of sales people that are very honest & helpful!! I can text or call anytime & get an answer!
> 
> I’m tired of being falsely accused & then beaten to a pulp with it. Example is in the locked thread:
> ”How many thousands of TS owners have stopped paying MFs due to what they read in your post? We don’t know”
> A question that the answer could be 0!!  Instead I’m beaten over the head saying I ACCUSED someone for thousands of owners not paying MFs.
> 
> I’ve been self employed my entire career & from a business standpoint here’s something I’d do if I was in charge at Wyndham.
> Resell owners are my least favorite customer base staying at the resorts. Why? They’re the least likely to buy from Wyndham. There a few of us that purchased resell & then made purchases from Wyndham to be VIPs but we’re very rare purchasers.
> I would tell the resorts to give them the worst units. Why? give them every incentive possible to come buy from Wyndham. Yet resell owners ask for units as if they’re VIPs & sometimes get upset when they’re told no. I don’t blame them for asking but I wouldn’t honor those request saying if you want better treatment come make a purchase.
> 
> Renters: I have a better chance of making a sell here verses a resell owner. We’ve had reports here that renters on an owner rental have made purchases from Wyndham. I’d give this group the middle of the road units.
> 
> VIPs & direct purchases: do everything I can for them including giving them the best units. They can be my best advertisers & endorsers of my great product. They’re more apt to be a repeat buyer from Wyndham.
> 
> On Privileges: I look for a ho hum when everything is done.
> Why not just change the point requirements & add 2 new levels? New CEO wants new VIP name.
> I’ll repeat myself by saying I don’t need new benefits just give me the benefits that I should be getting now like room request should be mandated that the resorts honor the request.



Which Margaritaville? I'm at Rio Mar right now but leaving in 2 hours for St. Thomas Margaritaville


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## dgalati

capital city said:


> Which Margaritaville? I'm at Rio Mar right now but leaving in 2 hours for St. Thomas Margaritaville


I love Margaritaville! It's always 5 o'clock somewhere?


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## 55plus

dgalati said:


> I love Margaritaville! It's always 5 o'clock somewhere?


I look at it like, it can be 5 o'clock when you want it to be 5 o'clock. But it more fun at Margaritville.


----------



## Braindead

capital city said:


> Which Margaritaville? I'm at Rio Mar right now but leaving in 2 hours for St. Thomas Margaritaville


Just missed you, we went to St Thomas first then Rio Mar.
Funny we both went to both just backwards of each other.
Long flight over was 18 minutes! lol


----------



## dgalati

55plus said:


> I look at it like, it can be 5 o'clock when you want it to be 5 o'clock. But it more fun at Margaritville.


I agree.


----------



## SNA27

CO skier said:


> It was not four Italians I was thinking of.  That was an allegory for those I think are driving this forum downhill fast.  (I could not find a 6-man bobsled video).  Congratulations on (barely) making the four-man cut, but every Wyndham forum reader, I am sure, have their own downhill team in mind.



Yes, we do!


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## SNA27

Braindead said:


> I’ve been self employed my entire career & from a business standpoint here’s something I’d do if I was in charge at Wyndham.
> *Resell owners are my least favorite customer base staying at the resorts. Why? They’re the least likely to buy from Wyndham. *There a few of us that purchased resell & then made purchases from Wyndham to be VIPs but we’re very rare purchasers.
> I would tell the resorts to give them the worst units. Why? give them every incentive possible to come buy from Wyndham. Yet resell owners ask for units as if they’re VIPs & sometimes get upset when they’re told no. I don’t blame them for asking but I wouldn’t honor those request saying if you want better treatment come make a purchase.
> 
> Renters: I have a better chance of making a sell here verses a resell owner. We’ve had reports here that renters on an owner rental have made purchases from Wyndham. I’d give this group the middle of the road units.
> 
> VIPs & direct purchases: do everything I can for them including giving them the best units. They can be my best advertisers & endorsers of my great product. They’re more apt to be a repeat buyer from Wyndham.
> 
> On Privileges: I look for a ho hum when everything is done.
> Why not just change the point requirements & add 2 new levels? New CEO wants new VIP name.
> I’ll repeat myself by saying I don’t need new benefits just give me the benefits that I should be getting now like room request should be mandated that the resorts honor the request.



I hope the new VIP Privileges program draws sharp distinctions between retail purchasers and resale and between VIP and non-VIP. I think the entry-level VIP stratum is a good idea but they should offer real VIP benefits. Currently, VIP Silver gets treated like an unwanted step-child with so few benefits. All VIPs should be treated like VIPs.

I have no problem with your disinviting resale owners from sitting with VIP owners at the banquet. But, the way it works now, the scraps at the dumpster are just as good what's served at the banquet! I guess you would deny them even the scraps!

I think there would be a lot of 'internal resistance' to treating resale owners poorly since many Wyndham employees enjoy VIP status through multiple PICs and they also own resale. I don't see them coming up with schemes that would deny themselves a seat at the banquet!


----------



## ecwinch

Braindead said:


> I was referring to here on TUG.
> Most of the regular posters that have left or haven’t  posted much in the last few months are VIPs: Why??
> It‘s been posted that:
> It’s stupid -fools with their $$ - worst thing that you could do- it never pays for itself to buy from Wyndham.
> Let me be clear a TS purchase should not be financed!! Wyndham sales practices are horrible !!
> But I will say we’ve found a couple of sales people that are very honest & helpful!! I can text or call anytime & get an answer!



As we say in the IT business.... "correlation is not causation". 

If regular posters are avoiding forum to the extent you believe, I would encourage you to look beyond your preconceived reasons and try to take a broader perspective. And then consider what actions you might take to improve the decorum of the forum. 

I for one, can only say that what you cite as the reason VIP's post less, is certainly not the reason I post here less frequently.


----------



## HitchHiker71

ecwinch said:


> As we say in the IT business.... "correlation is not causation".
> 
> If regular posters are avoiding forum to the extent you believe, I would encourage you to look beyond your preconceived reasons and try to take a broader perspective. And then consider what actions you might take to improve the decorum of the forum.
> 
> I for one, can only say that what you cite as the reason VIP's post less, is certainly not the reason I post here less frequently.



Agreed, the primary reason I haven't posted as much over the past several months has nothing to do with the tone of anything on the forum.  I have a demanding day job that takes up much of my available bandwidth, and the level of commitment required varies over time.  I simply haven't had as many cycles to come check the TUG forum, and even when I do, I often just consume content and do not post back because of bandwidth limitations.


----------



## buckor

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed, the primary reason I haven't posted as much over the past several months has nothing to do with the tone of anything on the forum. I have a demanding day job that takes up much of my available bandwidth, and the level of commitment required varies over time. I simply haven't had as many cycles to come check the TUG forum, and even when I do, I often just consume content and do not post back because of bandwidth limitations.


Same here...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727AZ using Tapatalk


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## kaljor

I haven't been posting that much lately because I don't think I have anything to contribute to many of the topics lately.  But I have enjoyed hearing the opinions in this thread.  I see it's gotten a little heated at times, and yes all involved do have to take a second read before they hit that "Post reply" button!  But honestly, I do appreciate that these people who feel so strongly about our Wyndham take the time to make their argument.  It's all food for thought.


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> I hope the new VIP Privileges program draws sharp distinctions between retail purchasers and resale and between VIP and non-VIP. I think the entry-level VIP stratum is a good idea but they should offer real VIP benefits. Currently, VIP Silver gets treated like an unwanted step-child with so few benefits. All VIPs should be treated like VIPs.
> 
> I have no problem with your disinviting resale owners from sitting with VIP owners at the banquet. But, the way it works now, the scraps at the dumpster are just as good what's served at the banquet! I guess you would deny them even the scraps!
> 
> I think there would be a lot of 'internal resistance' to treating resale owners poorly since many Wyndham employees enjoy VIP status through multiple PICs and they also own resale. I don't see them coming up with schemes that would deny themselves a seat at the banquet!


I thought we already covered all schemes. Are you saying Wyndham sales reps are schemers also because they use resale points with their VIP benefits. Say its not so! So they are beating the system and buyers of developer points?


----------



## SNA27

dgalati said:


> I thought we already covered all schemes. Are you saying Wyndham sales reps are schemers also because they use resale points with their VIP benefits. Say its not so! So they are beating the system and buyers of developer points?



Not schemers but avaricious humans seeking a bargain regardless of its impact on the entire system! Not a ridiculous scheme like renting from VIPs! But being VIPs on the cheap with multiple PICs! They are people who, while serving at the banquet, get to keep some seats and/or food for themselves!


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> Not schemers but avaricious humans seeking a bargain regardless of its impact on the entire system! Not a ridiculous scheme like renting from VIPs! But being VIPs on the cheap with multiple PICs! They are people who, while serving at the banquet, get to keep some seats and/or food for themselves!


They are taking home the leftovers? Renting from a VIP is a very similar to taking home the leftovers.  It is finacially beneficial to both parties and mutually agreed upon. I like to eat leftovers cold for lunch.


----------



## kaljor

SNA27 said:


> I hope the new VIP Privileges program draws sharp distinctions between retail purchasers and resale and between VIP and non-VIP.
> 
> I think there would be a lot of 'internal resistance' to treating resale owners poorly since many Wyndham employees enjoy VIP status through multiple PICs and they also own resale. I don't see them coming up with schemes that would deny themselves a seat at the banquet!



OK.  I have learned your feelings about this topic, so a question occurred to me.  As a resale only owner, I don't get discounts (except those that apply to all) I don't get upgrades, and I don't get to pick a specific unit.  I don't get a midweek cleaning.  If I want to bank my points, I only have three months to do so.  I can't join Plus Perks.  I can't book World Mark resorts nor Margaritaville (unless it's available to all).  

Resale owners have an extremely barebones ownership already.  If you were the King of Wyndham for a month, what else would you take away from us?

Truly, I'm not trying to instigate here, just trying to continue the discussion.  Oh yeah, we also don't get a daily USA Today for free!


----------



## dgalati

kaljor said:


> OK.  I have learned your feelings about this topic, so a question occurred to me.  As a resale only owner, I don't get discounts (except those that apply to all) I don't get upgrades, and I don't get to pick a specific unit.  I don't get a midweek cleaning.  If I want to bank my points, I only have three months to do so.  I can't join Plus Perks.  I can't book World Mark resorts nor Margaritaville (unless it's available to all).
> 
> Resale owners have an extremely barebones ownership already.  If you were the King of Wyndham for a month, what else would you take away from us?
> 
> Truly, I'm not trying to instigate here, just trying to continue the discussion.  Oh yeah, we also don't get a daily USA Today for free!


Many Vip owners want to limit resale owners benefits. The irony of this all is they use their resale points with VIP benefits. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me. See attached. Resale owners can p/u  USA Today for free also at the check in desk.


----------



## Rolltydr

dgalati said:


> Many Vip owners want to limit resale owners benefits. The irony of this all is they use their resale points with VIP benefits. Sounds pretty hypocritical to me. See attached. Resale owners can p/u  USA Today for free also at the check in desk.


Should a USA Today really be considered a benefit? Everyone can access a free copy on their phone, tablet or laptop.


----------



## Jan M.

dgalati said:


> Many Vip owners want to limit resale owners benefits.



I don't recall VIP owners wanting to limit resale owners benefits. As kaljor says they are bare bones already so how is that even possible.? What I have seen too many times to count is resale owners wanting to limit VIP owners benefits.


----------



## Eric B

Rolltydr said:


> Should a USA Today really be considered a benefit? Everyone can access a free copy on their phone, tablet or laptop.




I don't really consider the USA Today a valuable benefit, but it is listed as a VIP benefit by Wyndham.  In some resorts it's just sitting out in the lobby for anyone to pick up anyway.


----------



## dgalati

Eric B said:


> I don't really consider the USA Today a valuable benefit, but it is listed as a VIP benefit by Wyndham.  In some resorts it's just sitting out in the lobby for anyone to pick up anyway.


If its not out ask and you will recieve a copy no charge.


----------



## HitchHiker71

kaljor said:


> OK. I have learned your feelings about this topic, so a question occurred to me. As a resale only owner, I don't get discounts (except those that apply to all) I don't get upgrades, and I don't get to pick a specific unit. I don't get a midweek cleaning. If I want to bank my points, I only have three months to do so. I can't join Plus Perks. I can't book World Mark resorts nor Margaritaville (unless it's available to all).
> 
> Resale owners have an extremely barebones ownership already. If you were the King of Wyndham for a month, what else would you take away from us?
> 
> Truly, I'm not trying to instigate here, just trying to continue the discussion. Oh yeah, we also don't get a daily USA Today for free!



As has been previously mentioned in this voluminous thread by me, I think what a subset of VIP owners would like to see is real priority booking for VIP owners and inventory limits for resale owners via a dedicated trust that would hold all deeds for all resale only owners. Call it CWR or Club Wyndham Resale trust, which would hold all inventory for all resale only users. CWR would not have the ability to use the CWP exchange to book inventory in CWS or CWA. Honestly I’m not even sure this is legally feasible as I have not done the due diligence myself, and a few others who better understand the legalese have indicated it may not be feasible. Others have also indicated that creating an entirely new trust for this function is overkill since all resale contracts are already coded as resale so something like this could be accomplished without having to move inventory around into different trusts. I also suspect, were this to be feasible - it would only be feasible from a point in time forward - meaning current resale only owners would be grandfathered. 

This is all just ideation on my part to be clear. 

Toward Dominics point about VIP owners who own resale, their resale deeds could also be limited in the same way - though doing so would require changes to the current website and booking mechanisms to enforce such limitations.

Would Wyndham do something like this? Perhaps gradually over time - similar to what Disney and a few other timeshare companies have done to start enforcing limits on resale contracts. Only time will tell.

We have proposed other VIP benefits to several of the Wyndham higher ups when we were at the owners meeting from the surveys Richelle and I performed on the Facebook forums.  We will see if they are listening or not.  I will say I also agree with many others here that I would like to see some existing VIP benefits that aren’t really enforced persistently today become standardized and enforced.  Such as the room request feature for example.  With some coding changes to the current website system it would not be difficult to do this IME.   

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## capital city

I think Wyndham is too big and middle of the road to restrict resale too much. If they push out too many people they will be hurting with all the foreclosures, etc. I'm sure it's a hard balancing act and the only way to really judge that it's fair is to recognize that on these forums both sides think they should have more but neither side feel slighted enough to be upset with their access or benefits. Seems like they're doing a good job to me.


----------



## Braindead

I don’t expect or am I advocating to see any changes for what resale owners see for availability, I would truly be shocked if that ever happens.
I’ll also clarify my earlier post on resale only owners getting the least desirable units.
They get what they reserve but it ends there.
Resale only owner reserves Oceanfront they get the least desirable Oceanfront unit. Resorts know which units are the most desirable.


----------



## SNA27

kaljor said:


> OK.  I have learned your feelings about this topic, so a question occurred to me.  As a resale only owner, I don't get discounts (except those that apply to all) I don't get upgrades, and I don't get to pick a specific unit.  I don't get a midweek cleaning.  If I want to bank my points, I only have three months to do so.  I can't join Plus Perks.  I can't book World Mark resorts nor Margaritaville (unless it's available to all).
> 
> *Resale owners have an extremely barebones ownership already.*  If you were the King of Wyndham for a month, what else would you take away from us?
> 
> Truly, I'm not trying to instigate here, just trying to continue the discussion.  Oh yeah, we also don't get a daily USA Today for free!



_*Your cup is half-full, not half-empty!*_ You get everything a NON-VIP retail purchaser gets! And even pay a lower program fee!
I thought Plus-Perks is open to all with an annual membership fee! It's free for me now but I have never used it because it's not that useful!
Wyndham Club Pass: I hate the idea of calling and finding out there is no availability. I hope they go to online self-service with everything! I don't like the $99 fee either.
USA Today is a Perk? Funny! I would rather get the local newspaper, if at all!

@Braindead started this 'What would King of Wyndham do?' subtopic. I'm paraphrasing him using your question, obviously! Maybe it should be a thread on its own.

It's all about supply vs. demand. Resale buyers play an important part in Capacity Utilization and pay the MF for the upkeep. Without them, defaults will increase and the rest of the owners will have to make up the shortfall one way or the other. @Braindead's suggestion of treating them as 'undesirables' may not pass legal muster. For example, in a condo complex, an identical unit may have sold for a range of prices over the years. Do you deny pool privileges to the owner who bought cheaply?

All my deeds are governed by HOA rules but I haven't read the actual verbiage which entitles me access to Club Wyndham Pass and the internal exchange. Again, if you limit CWP access to resale buyers, nobody would buy them since resale buyers are buying the deed mainly for access to CWP.

Maybe, they can charge resale owners higher fees for all kinds of services (Title transfer, reservations, GCs, etc.) and give retail purchasers lower fees.  Ok, don't beat me up on this? I have no idea if it would be even legal. But I bet they can and do all kinds of things in their Voyager system unbeknownst to us. When I was Temp Silver with CWA in 2017 or Gold in early 2018 with GD deed, the availability calendar used to be a lot grayer than it's now as a  permanent VIP-P! I would love to get a peek into the internals of that system. I don't think we all have equal access to availability even in the Standard window.

The hospitality business is a tough business and I have no idea about their business model. I would like to think Wyndham knows a lot more about these complex issues than me or even a businessman like @Braindead!


----------



## cbyrne1174

TBH if I were 40-50 years old, I probably would have bought benefits prior to 2012. Back then you only needed 500,000 pts to be Gold. Also, the purchase price was cheaper back then compared to today including inflation. If you were to do a simple 3% inflation calculation, $40,000 now was $22,147 in the year 2000. Now $40,000 only buys 158,000 points at retail price. What did $22,147 buy at retail price back in 2000?


----------



## paxsarah

SNA27 said:


> _*Your cup is half-full, not half-empty!*_ You get everything a NON-VIP retail purchaser gets! And even pay a lower program fee!
> I thought Plus-Perks is open to all with an annual membership fee! It's free for me now but I have never used it because it's not that useful!



We do not get everything a non-VIP retail purchaser gets. The reason we pay the lower program fee is because we don't have access to Plus Partners (not to be confused with Perks, which is a fairly mundane discount program that I'm pretty sure we also don't have access to, with something like a $59 annual fee). In the past it was possible to enroll a resale-only account into Plus Partners for a fee of over $2,000, but it may not be possible to do this any longer and I really don't see how it would be worth it. Plus Partners allows for access to RCI points inventory and nightly stays (in addition to the RCI weeks inventory and cash vacations we are limited to). It also allows for access to other travel-related uses of points (transfer to WR, cruises, car rentals, etc.) which are widely considered to be a poor use of points/MFs. And of course we don't have access to Club Pass.

Make no mistake, I don't miss those things and it was worth it to me to save money and forego those benefits. In fact, I don't see any reason at all for an educated owner or prospective buyer to pay retail prices to get those benefits if the ultimate goal isn't VIP. But we don't get exactly the same benefits as non-VIP retail buyers.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the difference in program fee is mentioned far often than is warranted. On a million point resale account, the difference between that and a retail account would be 20 bucks. It's truly unimportant, except for Wyndham's own accounting purposes.


----------



## dgalati

cbyrne1174 said:


> TBH if I were 40-50 years old, I probably would have bought benefits prior to 2012. Back then you only needed 500,000 pts to be Gold. Also, the purchase price was cheaper back then compared to today including inflation. If you were to do a simple 3% inflation calculation, $40,000 now was $22,147 in the year 2000. Now $40,000 only buys 158,000 points at retail price. What did $22,147 buy at retail price back in 2000?


My uncle paid 18k for 308,000 points @ Grand Desert in 2001. This is a  Silver VIP.


----------



## SNA27

cbyrne1174 said:


> TBH if I were 40-50 years old, I probably would have bought benefits prior to 2012. Back then you only needed 500,000 pts to be Gold. Also, the purchase price was cheaper back then compared to today including inflation. If you were to do a simple 3% inflation calculation, $40,000 now was $22,147 in the year 2000. Now $40,000 only buys 158,000 points at retail price. What did $22,147 buy at retail price back in 2000?



158,000? Trick question? 
In July 2016, I got sucked into the Wyndham TS Vortex, paying ~$40k for 210k CWA points (~$186/1000) starting from 2017 + 210k bonus (2017-2018)!
Looks like 186 (discounted price, haha! ;-) interpolates nicely between 253 and 140!


----------



## cbyrne1174

dgalati said:


> My uncle paid 18k for 308,000 points @ Grand Desert in 2001. This is a  Silver VIP.



And that's a much more reasonable price to be Silver VIP than 500,000 points required at the end of 2020.


SNA27 said:


> 158,000? Trick question?
> In July 2016, I got sucked into the Wyndham TS Vortex, paying ~$40k for 210k CWA points (~$186/1000) starting from 2017 + 210k bonus (2017-2018)!
> Looks like 186 (discounted price, haha! ;-) interpolates nicely between 253 and 140!



Ouch!


----------



## dgalati

cbyrne1174 said:


> And that's a much more reasonable price to be Silver VIP than 500,000 points required at the end of 2020.
> 
> 
> Ouch!


It was about 1/4 the cost at $58.44/1000


----------



## Braindead

dgalati said:


> My uncle paid 18k for 308,000 points @ Grand Desert in 2001. This is a  Silver VIP.


It’s cheaper per point today using PICs & obtaining a VIP Gold account


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> It’s cheaper per point today using PICs & obtaining a VIP Gold account


PIC wasn't a option for Uncle. He bought back in the Fairfield days before Wyndham came to be. Either way Its still way to expensive IMHO.  Especially if you need ARP and need to book before the 60 day discount can be taken advantage of.  I do not find buying to be cost effective over renting for my travel needs.


----------



## cbyrne1174

PICs aren't a lifetime guarantee. If they change affiliation, you lose your status.


----------



## capital city

cbyrne1174 said:


> PICs aren't a lifetime guarantee. If they change affiliation, you lose your status.


That's what's held me back from going all in. The changes coming up and not knowing will PICs still be good (I think they will) and will resale keep VIP privileges if your VIP ( I think they will). Does Wyndham realize their wishy washy days of changing benefits effect people's decisions to give them $70k?


----------



## dgalati

capital city said:


> That's what's held me back from going all in. The changes coming up and not knowing will PICs still be good (I think they will) and will resale keep VIP privileges if your VIP ( I think they will). Does Wyndham realize their wishy washy days of changing benefits effect people's decisions to give them $70k?


In regards to Resale getting VIP privileges.  It is a loophole being taken advantage of. Costing all owners. See attached.


----------



## Sandi Bo

I'd  venture to guess that most resale sellers aren't aware of Ovations.  I had a friend that offered me her Bonnet Creek contract (free if I paid the transfer fees) and I sent her to Ovations. Surely those selling resale outside of Ovations are being taken advantage of coming and going?  They are paying someone to take the timeshare off their hands, and many are willing to take them paying almost nothing for them.  Even though it seems a ripoff to buy something for a crazy amount of money and then give it back, I look at Ovations as part of the solution for Wyndham to try and keep contracts off the resale market.


----------



## ecwinch

dgalati said:


> In regards to Resale getting VIP privileges.  It is a loophole being taken advantage of. Costing all owners. See attached.



PSA: This post is easy to misunderstand if you have not followed this voluminous thread and don’t understand the shorthand being used.... I believe what you mean to say is:

Points from resale contracts in a VIP account won’t receive VIP unit upgrades or pts discounts. 

And yes, I do imagine this benefit will disappear soon. Far more likely to occur than PICs going away.


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## SNA27

ecwinch said:


> PSA: This post is easy to misunderstand if you have not followed this voluminous thread and don’t understand the shorthand being used.... I believe what you mean to say is:
> 
> Points from resale contracts in a VIP account won’t receive VIP unit upgrades or pts discounts.
> 
> And yes, I do imagine this benefit will disappear soon. Far more likely to occur than PICs going away.



So, what or where's the loophole, if resale points do not qualify for VIP benefits as stated in the directory? What benefit will disappear if it's not there now?

I have heard Wyndham employees own multiple PICs. When I was in Pagosa, they actually got me to talk to a guy who knew the ins and outs of PICs and RCI etc. So, I feel confident PICs are not going away. And RCI makes a good chunk of money for Wyndham!


----------



## Braindead

I like to look at a CEOs past to see what they’ve done & likely to do in the future.
Our current CEO came over from HGVC.
HGVC rules state that you can only rent your home week, meaning where you own & season you own.
If CEO Mr. Brown sees cheap rentals as a problem what’s likely to happen looking at his past.
Club Rules will change only allowing for ARP reservations to be rented. I think this might be the first change tried to see if it stops cheap rentals along with increasing sales.

Resale treatment in VIPs account could change also. But that will be the second item if the above isn’t enough. I don’t think Wyndham wants the VIPs resale contracts at this time

If one or both happen say goodbye to cheap rentals


----------



## SNA27

Braindead said:


> I like to look at a CEOs past to see what they’ve done & likely to do in the future.
> Our current CEO came over from HGVC.
> HGVC rules state that you can only rent your home week, meaning where you own & season you own.
> If CEO Mr. Brown sees cheap rentals as a problem what’s likely to happen looking at his past.
> Club Rules will change only allowing for ARP reservations to be rented. I think this might be the first change tried to see if it stops cheap rentals along with increasing sales.
> 
> Resale treatment in VIPs account could change also. But that will be the second item if the above isn’t enough. I don’t think Wyndham wants the VIPs resale contracts at this time
> 
> If one or both happen say goodbye to cheap rentals



While we are chewing the cud, here are some questions:
What's the HOME resort for CWA? 
Why restrict a CWS deed to ARP only? What's the harm in renting during Standard and Express windows?


----------



## Braindead

SNA27 said:


> What's the HOME resort for CWA?
> Why restrict a CWS deed to ARP only? What's the harm in renting during Standard and Express windows?


CWA has ARP at over 70 resorts, would it increase the value of CWA contracts ? Who knows.

HGVC rules state you cannot rent reservations using Club Points. I believe HGVC Club Points start at 9 months that’s what we call the Standard Reservation window.
We say points are points at 10 months for HGVC points are points at 9 months.
What effect would this have?
In theory:
Every owner will see more availability at 10 months or less, since your not competing with owners looking for rentals, it should increase availability.
VIPs will actually see more availability for discounts & upgrades, VIPs will not be competing with VIPs looking for discounts & upgrades for rentals.

Eliminate cheap rentals makes buying look like a better option than the way it is today increasing sales.
Allow Standard & Express window reservations into EH, allows Wyndham to collect 40% & control the rental rates.


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> So, what or where's the loophole, if resale points do not qualify for VIP benefits as stated in the directory? What benefit will disappear if it's not there now?
> 
> I have heard Wyndham employees own multiple PICs. When I was in Pagosa, they actually got me to talk to a guy who knew the ins and outs of PICs and RCI etc. So, I feel confident PICs are not going away. And RCI makes a good chunk of money for Wyndham!
> 
> View attachment 16073


Many VIP owners own millions of resale points. When all developer bought VIP points have been used the resale points are used in the 50% discount window or with free room upgrades as a VIP benefit. Clearly it is against Wyndham rules to use Resale points with VIP benefits.  Who is to blame when Wyndham closes this loophole that is being abused?


----------



## ecwinch

dgalati said:


> Who is to blame when Wyndham closes this loophole that is being abused?



dgalati..... it always seems like your posts are designed to maximize the shock value of whatever point you are making.
I have resale points. I am a VIP owner. My resale points do in fact receive my VIP discount as you you point out.

But am I "abusing" the system?  

That seems a little more inflammatory than necessary.


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> So, what or where's the loophole, if resale points do not qualify for VIP benefits as stated in the directory? What benefit will disappear if it's not there now?
> 
> I have heard Wyndham employees own multiple PICs. When I was in Pagosa, they actually got me to talk to a guy who knew the ins and outs of PICs and RCI etc. So, I feel confident PICs are not going away. And RCI makes a good chunk of money for Wyndham!
> 
> View attachment 16073


Its against rules but system lets VIP book resale points and use as a VIP benefit. Many VIP owners have used this loophole. If closed it would benefit all VIP owners by eliminating all the cheap rentals. This would also help EH like BD stated. It would eliminate the competition to EH. This would help Wyndham's bottom line and stock price. Building a stonger case for  @Fredflintstone to rent with the purchase of Wyndham stock while using the  dividends as a way to travel for less.


----------



## comicbookman

dgalati said:


> Many VIP owners own millions of resale points. When all developer bought VIP points have been used the resale points are used in the 50% discount window or with free room upgrades as a VIP benefit. Clearly it is against Wyndham rules to use Resale points with VIP benefits.  Who is to blame when Wyndham closes this loophole that is being abused?




As a VIPP owner with substantial resales points add on top of my dev points I watch this discussion with much amusement.  I used to own twice as many resale, but don't travel as much as we did when we had 2 teenagers participating in year round sports.  the basic assumption here is that enforcing the rules on resale and VIP benefits will have a major impact.  I would submit that this is a false assumption.  In the era of the mega renters, definitely.  Now i would guess that most VIPP owners with resale points rarely get discounts on more than their million plus dev points.   I base this on my own experience and several conversations with other similar owners.  I personally would like to see ALL of the rules followed with regard to VIP benefits.  This includes no benefits for resale reservations, but also room requests, dedicated check in etc.  I truly believe that those rules would have a larger impact than not giving VIP's benefits were never promised.


----------



## ecwinch

If the "system" fails to enforce a rule that the "system" developer has unilaterally created and fails to enforce, I would make the argument that the "system" has effectively waived the rule. 

Which people that make rules are free to do at their leisure, and that happens all the time. It is the real-world we live in.


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## Braindead

comicbookman said:


> As a VIPP owner with substantial resales points add on top of my dev points I watch this discussion with much amusement.  I used to own twice as many resale, but don't travel as much as we did when we had 2 teenagers participating in year round sports.  the basic assumption here is that enforcing the rules on resale and VIP benefits will have a major impact.  I would submit that this is a false assumption.  In the era of the mega renters, definitely.  Now i would guess that most VIPP owners with resale points rarely get discounts on more than their million plus dev points.   I base this on my own experience and several conversations with other similar owners.  I personally would like to see ALL of the rules followed with regard to VIP benefits.  This includes no benefits for resale reservations, but also room requests, dedicated check in etc.  I truly believe that those rules would have a larger impact than not giving VIP's benefits were never promised.


X2!! Couldn’t agree more!!!


----------



## dgalati

ecwinch said:


> dgalati..... it always seems like your posts are designed to maximize the shock value of whatever point you are making.
> I have resale points. I am a VIP owner. My resale points do in fact receive my VIP discount as you you point out.
> 
> But am I "abusing" the system?
> 
> That seems a little more inflammatory than necessary.


If millions of resale points are blocked from recieving the VIP benefits wouldn't you agree a VIP with no resale points would have a better chance of recieving what they paid for? Free upgrades and more availability in the 50% discount window would improve with this loophole being corrected by Wyndham.


----------



## dgalati

ecwinch said:


> If the "system" fails to enforce a rule that the "system" developer has unilaterally created and fails to enforce, I would make the argument that the "system" has effectively waived the rule.
> 
> Which people that make rules are free to do at their leisure, and that happens all the time. It is the real-world we live in.


So when a VIP complains they are not recieving instant upgrades or there is no availability who is to blame? Wyndham or the VIP owner that has used the loophole to their advantage. Many were quick to point a finger at the megarenters when they used loopholes. Would you say this statement should have applied to them also then? If the "system" fails to enforce a rule that the "system" developer has unilaterally created and fails to enforce, I would make the argument that the "system" has effectively waived the rule.


----------



## SNA27

It should be easy to track retail and resale points separately. This is already done in the backend systems. 
It's Voyager that needs to be fixed, quite easily imo, to not club all the points together in a use-year but instead track retail versus resale separately. They do that with Bonus points right now. 
Just track resale points in a separate use-year bucket and apply the VIP rules only to the retail use-year buckets. This should have been done prior to any directory changes! 

But, I am willing to bet, they have already quantified the cost of 'unpromised VIP benefits availed' and decided to put it on the back burner while they are busy working on the Privileges program!


----------



## ecwinch

dgalati said:


> If millions of resale points are blocked from recieving the VIP benefits wouldn't you agree a VIP with no resale points would have a better chance of recieving what they paid for? Free upgrades and more availability in the 50% discount window would improve with this loophole being corrected by Wyndham.



"Receiving what they paid for?".....   lets unpack that.

So are we are talking about people who specifically paid to become VIP members only in order to receive some ephemeral VIP benefits that can be changed at anytime by the developer?

I think that is where your analysis is flawed. VIP benefits are not some "entitlement" program I purchased with my points. In many respects they are no different than airline loyalty programs - as they are programs where benefits can change on a moments notice, with certain benefits disappearing, or being devalued, and in a rare case - even being enhanced.

So no - I dont think anyone who specifically is buying more points just to get to a VIP level, is "entitled" to anything other than the usage of the points they purchased. Because VIP benefits are just a loyalty program, not an entitlement.

This discussion is no different than some I see on Flyertalk, where people posture about what they are entitled to, and how airlines making it easier to become elite devalues their membership. Only true if you feel you are entitled to something and fail to recognize that elite/VIP programs are about making the customer feel special so they do more business with you.


----------



## ecwinch

dgalati said:


> So when a VIP complains they are not recieving instant upgrades or there is no availability who is to blame? Wyndham or the VIP owner that has used the loophole to their advantage. Many were quick to point a finger at the megarenters when they used loopholes. Would you say this statement should have applied to them also then? If the "system" fails to enforce a rule that the "system" developer has unilaterally created and fails to enforce, I would make the argument that the "system" has effectively waived the rule.



And there is a world of difference between what we used to do with "cancel/rebook" than what goes on today. That process met every criteria of a loophole and is much different. I think you are stuck trying to mine a old argument that really does not have the legs today that it used. They are apples and oranges. 

So no, I dont think that argument applies. 

And in regards to "who is blame" - the answer is far more likely to be all the non-VIP and resale owners who use their points for exactly what they bought them for - the ability to book a reservation. That usage contributes far more to the lack of availability and not getting upgrades. Compared to that usage, VIP's getting VIP benefits on resale points is just a rounding error IMHO.


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## SNA27

@ecwinch, I was always being sold into VIP levels, not points. If it was only about points, I wouldn't need 1.425M.
Btw, all of my reservations so far (72) have been made during the discount window with 38 upgrades. 
So, I bought specifically based on the promise of VIP Benefits!


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> It should be easy to track retail and resale points separately. This is already done in the backend systems.
> It's Voyager that needs to be fixed, quite easily imo, to not club all the points together in a use-year but instead track retail versus resale separately. They do that with Bonus points right now.
> Just track resale points in a separate use-year bucket and apply the VIP rules only to the retail use-year buckets. This should have been done prior to any directory changes!
> 
> But, I am willing to bet, they have already quantified the cost of 'unpromised VIP benefits availed' and decided to put it on the back burner while they are busy working on the Privileges program!


You are a IT guy you know this would be a easy fix. It would also help Wyndham sell more developer points if the cheap VIP resale rentals were eliminated.


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> @ecwinch, I was always being sold into VIP levels, not points. If it was only about points, I wouldn't need 1.425M.
> Btw, all of my reservations so far (72) have been made during the discount window with 38 upgrades.
> So, I bought specifically based on the promise of VIP Benefits!


SNA27 a VIP like you is a good example of why Wyndham should close the loophole of resale points being used as VIP benifits. Wyndham could sell more developer points if the rule of not allowing resale points with VIP benefits was enforced.


----------



## Eric B

SNA27 said:


> It should be easy to track retail and resale points separately. This is already done in the backend systems.
> It's Voyager that needs to be fixed, quite easily imo, to not club all the points together in a use-year but instead track retail versus resale separately. They do that with Bonus points right now.
> Just track resale points in a separate use-year bucket and apply the VIP rules only to the retail use-year buckets. This should have been done prior to any directory changes!
> 
> But, I am willing to bet, they have already quantified the cost of 'unpromised VIP benefits availed' and decided to put it on the back burner while they are busy working on the Privileges program!



Frankly, I agree with you that it should be easy to track retail and resale points separately; in fact, it should be simple to track down to the individual contract.  If they were to do away with the dumping all of the points together in single use years, they could also avoid the issues with use-year realignment and allow people to have multiple use years in their ownerships without creating issues that don't need to exist by mandating a single one per account.


----------



## ecwinch

SNA27 said:


> @ecwinch, I was always being sold into VIP levels, not points. If it was only about points, I wouldn't need 1.425M.
> Btw, all of my reservations so far (72) have been made during the discount window with 38 upgrades.
> So, I bought specifically based on the promise of VIP Benefits!



I think you misunderstand the point. Certainly people "buy" to achieve VIP status and the benefits they will receive. It is why I purchased.

But that does not create an "entitlement" that I will always receive those benefits. Like you, I almost never make a reservation without using my discount and/or my upgrade, and many times it is both. But I have to work to make that happen, and can no longer get almost any resort any time at the lowest possible credit value like I did during the cancel/rebook days. I have to be more flexible, and sometimes settle for my second or third choices in terms of resorts or even locale. I go where my discount can take me. 

And for me to turn around and advocate for changes that adversely impact other members because I feel entitled to "get what I paid for", is a bridge too far for me.


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## SNA27

dgalati said:


> You are a IT guy you know this would be a easy fix. It would also help Wyndham sell more developer points if the cheap resales were eliminated.



If I were put in charge of solving this issue, I would suggest a more substantial fix to the backend system completely segregating resale from retail. A membership number will only be allowed to have either retail or resale and all those memberships with retail and resale comingled will get an additional membership with only resale. It would make the enforcements of VIP rules in the frontend much more elegant and easier! This is just off the cuff without knowing how the systems and databases are structured. It may be an inconvenience to some members but it's no more so than having multiple bank accounts with different rules!


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## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> So when a VIP complains they are not recieving instant upgrades or there is no availability who is to blame? Wyndham or the VIP owner that has used the loophole to their advantage. Many were quick to point a finger at the megarenters when they used loopholes. Would you say this statement should have applied to them also then? If the "system" fails to enforce a rule that the "system" developer has unilaterally created and fails to enforce, I would make the argument that the "system" has effectively waived the rule.



The megarenters were using the prior loopholes for commercial use, which is now (not sure about way back when) expressly prohibited in the contracts. There is a marked difference between allowing VIP owners with resale contracts to rent out points to help break even on their annual MFs vs running a commercial enterprise. If Wyndham wants to allow their VIP owners to receive benefit from supplementary resale contracts, that is their discretion, hence the rule waive is discretionary in nature.

I would also submit that your definition of “many” is not accurate. There are probably a very small subset of VIP owners that own millions of resale points. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SNA27

ecwinch said:


> I think you misunderstand the point. Certainly people "buy" to achieve VIP status and the benefits they will receive. It is why I purchased.
> 
> But that does not create an "entitlement" that I will always receive those benefits. Like you, I almost never make a reservation without using my discount and/or my upgrade, and many times it is both. But I have to work to make that happen, and can no longer get almost any resort any time at the lowest possible credit value like I did during the cancel/rebook days. I have to be more flexible, and sometimes settle for my second or third choices in terms of resorts or even locale. I go where my discount can take me.
> 
> And for me to turn around and advocate for changes that adversely impact other members because I feel entitled to "get what I paid for", is a bridge too far for me.



Agreed. I am 'entitled' to the leftover at 50% with free upgrades if available!  I understood that when I bought!
But I do see that my availability screen looks way less gray than it used to when I was a VIP-Silver.
I am not one able to plan vacations 13 months in advance. Maybe I will look into renting such ARP reservations.
I do agree with @dgalati that resale points should NOT be able to get 50% discounts or VIP upgrades. But, as you said, it must be a rounding error and IT has other higher priorities.


----------



## dgalati

ecwinch said:


> I think you misunderstand the point. Certainly people "buy" to achieve VIP status and the benefits they will receive. It is why I purchased.
> 
> But that does not create an "entitlement" that I will always receive those benefits. Like you, I almost never make a reservation without using my discount and/or my upgrade, and many times it is both. But I have to work to make that happen, and can no longer get almost any resort any time at the lowest possible credit value like I did during the cancel/rebook days. I have to be more flexible, and sometimes settle for my second or third choices in terms of resorts or even locale. I go where my discount can take me.
> 
> And for me to turn around and advocate for changes that adversely impact other members because I feel entitled to "get what I paid for", is a bridge too far for me.


You would not be advocating for changes tou your VIP benefits. It would be advocating for Wyndham to enforce the rules to enhance the VIP benifits that were paid for. Resale points are not a paid for VIP benefit.


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## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> SNA27 a VIP like you is a good example of why Wyndham should close the loophole of resale points being used as VIP benifits. Wyndham could sell more developer points if the rule of not allowing resale points with VIP benefits was enforced.



I think it depends on the use case in question. A VIP owner is very unlikely to purchase additional points just for the rental capacity as it’s simply not cost effective as the ROI is way too long a period of time.

VIP owners like me acquire resale contracts to generate rental income to help offset the cost of our developer point investments. I don’t see how Wyndham would sell more developer points to my persona so I don’t see how enforcing the rule of not allowing resale points to take advantage of VIP benefits would help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SNA27

Inventory availability was the 'hook' that was used to sell me up to gold and trade my CWA up to GD deed! Improvement was marginal. But, I could see a difference after I became VIP-P in July 2018!

Directory doesn't spell out this 'inventory availability' or maybe it's just a sales gimmick. But directory is only a broad guideline. The computer programs are the regulations drawn up within the guidelines. But unlike Government regulations, we don't get to see the program specs or the actual code!

But, I do think there must be subjective factors in the routine that builds the availability calendar. Not all members are equal. Some are more equal than others!


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## HitchHiker71

SNA27 said:


> Agreed. I am 'entitled' to the leftover at 50% with free upgrades if available!  I understood that when I bought!
> But I do see that my availability screen looks way less gray than it used to when I was a VIP-Silver.
> I am not one able to plan vacations 13 months in advance. Maybe I will look into renting such ARP reservations.
> I do agree with @dgalati that resale points should NOT be able to get 50% discounts or VIP upgrades. But, as you said, it must be a rounding error and IT has other higher priorities.



The calendars have less gray not because of your VIP status. For this to be accurate it would have to mean that the oft used “priority booking” feature touted by many a sales person would actually be true. Meaning that depending on what you own, you will “see” more inventory - which is not true.  The only exceptions to this rule are PR and MVC owners.

The reason you see less gray is because of the changes made via the Voyager release that eliminated cancel/rebook and replaced the pooled points feature, along with the banning of the megarenters from the system, which were consuming an inordinate amount of the available inventory for commercial use. 

If this happened to coincide with your elevation of VIP status, I can assure you it’s merely coincidence. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HitchHiker71

SNA27 said:


> Inventory availability was the 'hook' that was used to sell me up to gold and trade my CWA up to GD deed! Improvement was marginal. But, I could see a difference after I became VIP-P.
> 
> Directory doesn't spell out this 'inventory availability' or maybe it's just a sales gimmick. But directory is only a broad guideline. The computer programs are the regulations drawn up within the guidelines. But unlike Government regulations, we don't get to see the program specs or the actual code!
> 
> But, I do think, there must be subjective factors in the routine that builds the availability calendar. Not all members are equal. Some are more equal than others!



It’s just a sales gimmick. Hate to tell you. Everyone can “see” the same inventory regardless of what you own - at least within the standard booking window. Even in the ARP window - I can often “see” inventory that’s not actually available for me to book. 

Case in point, I was looking at available inventory at various resorts between the 10-11 month windows. At certain resorts - like with St. Thomas and Rio Mar, I could “see” available inventory beyond the 10 month window - showing as white/available in the calendar, but when I clicked on any date beyond the 10 month window - the interface informed me that the type of ownership I have doesn’t entitle me to book the available inventory. Screenshot for reference.









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## Braindead

One of my favorite statements that I & others have said over the years
” It doesn’t matter what the directory says, the only thing that matters is how the system works “

This benefits about ALL owners at times even resale point only owners.
A prime example is points are now blind as far as what they’re used for.
You’re given various point allocations, you could use your ARP allocation for all of your 2020 points & yet still use the point deposit feature for points still in your 2020 points bucket that technically might of been deposited forwarded from 2019. The directory says that’s not possible but it’s the way the system is designed & it does work that way.

Some here act like it’s a big loophole on resale points getting VIP benefits in a VIP account.
Do any of you think Wyndham doesn’t know how resale points work in a VIP account?? I say hell yes they do!!!!!!!
I look at abuse or loopholes are items that Wyndham may not know about or to the extent of it being abused.
I for one don’t look at the resale points in the VIPs account as a loophole!! You can argue this forever but it’s the way the system works & Wyndham not only knows it it’s the way they designed the system to work.


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## SNA27

So, the Grand Desert sold me on a grand lie! I was told that CWA can only see CWA inventory and CWS deeds can see CWS inventory. 
And that CWA has so little inventory in the 70 resorts and none in Hawaii! Blah blah blah! 
IME, Worst sale experiences: Towers at Myrtle beach, NY45, Las Vegas (both sites)


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## Braindead

SNA27 said:


> So, the Grand Desert sold me on a grand lie! I was told that CWA can only see CWA inventory and CWS deeds can see CWS inventory.
> And that CWA has so little inventory in the 70 resorts and none in Hawaii! Blah blah blah!
> IME, Worst sale experiences: Towers at Myrtle beach, NY45, Las Vegas (both sites)


Another favorite saying on here is, there’s usually some truth in what they say.
What you were told is absolutely TRUE for ARP.
There’s no CWA resorts in Hawaii. So no ARP for CWA in Hawaii.
CWA only sees CWA availability in the ARP window

Not a grand lie, you just need the rest of the story


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## SNA27

Braindead said:


> Another favorite saying on here is, there’s usually some truth in what they say.
> What you were told is absolutely TRUE for ARP.
> There’s no CWA resorts in Hawaii. So no ARP for CWA in Hawaii.
> CWA only sees CWA availability in the ARP window




Are you sure? Are you saying GD deed can see WBC CWS inventory or Hawaii inventory during ARP? I am sure I can play with the system and verify this!


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## Braindead

SNA27 said:


> Are you sure? Are you saying GD deed can see WBC CWS inventory or Hawaii inventory during ARP? I am sure I can play with the system and verify this!


No I’m not saying that. GD deed can only book GD deeded owners ARP allocation availability.
Clarify you might see it but you can’t book it as HitchHiker71 pointed out


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## HitchHiker71

Braindead said:


> No I’m not saying that. GD deed can only book GD deeded owners ARP allocation availability.
> Clarify you might see it but you can’t book it as HitchHiker71 pointed out



Correct and honestly since Voyager is far from a perfect system, my experience varies. Sometimes if you cannot book it will gray out the dates, however sometimes it shows the dates as available (white) even though I cannot book that time. Either way, as soon as you click on the start date - the system will then validate that start date against your actual ownership and indicate whether it’s valid or not.

For example, I’m a CWA/PIC only owner. Midtown 45 has zero CWA inventory - so I should not “see” any availability beyond 10 months - but I do - it’s all white for me in Jan 2021 - but when I click on any start date - the system tells me I cannot book:







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## HitchHiker71

Braindead said:


> Another favorite saying on here is, there’s usually some truth in what they say.
> What you were told is absolutely TRUE for ARP.
> There’s no CWA resorts in Hawaii. So no ARP for CWA in Hawaii.
> CWA only sees CWA availability in the ARP window
> 
> Not a grand lie, you just need the rest of the story



Agreed - half truths are often used by sales while glossing over the details that really matter. Like saying that what you own means you can only “see” certain inventory - even though this is only true for the ARP window as you said. If you are the type of owner that never books in the ARP window because you don’t plan vacations more than 10 months in advance - then this oft used sales ploy is moot. 


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## HitchHiker71

SNA27 said:


> So, the Grand Desert sold me on a grand lie! I was told that CWA can only see CWA inventory and CWS deeds can see CWS inventory.



This is generally only true in the ARP window as BD said.



> And that CWA has so little inventory in the 70 resorts and none in Hawaii! Blah blah blah!
> IME, Worst sale experiences: Towers at Myrtle beach, NY45, Las Vegas (both sites)



What CWA owns across the resorts varies widely. I actually maintain a spreadsheet containing exactly what inventory CWA owns that I built based upon multiple versions of the CWA POS published over time. It’s available in one of the FB groups that I’m an admin for where we publish this data for our group members. Here’s an excerpt from the sheet in question showing the exact inventory data for all CWA Florida resorts:









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## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> This is generally only true in the ARP window as BD said.
> 
> 
> 
> What CWA owns across the resorts varies widely. I actually maintain a spreadsheet containing exactly what inventory CWA owns that I built based upon multiple versions of the CWA POS published over time. It’s available in one of the FB groups that I’m an admin for where we publish this data for our group members. Here’s an excerpt from the sheet in question showing the exact inventory data for all CWA Florida resorts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



What's the significance of the 104.28% for Emerald Grande?

Also, is it possible that some degree of ARP visibility is to accommodate VIP RARPs?


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## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> What's the significance of the 104.28% for Emerald Grande?



The dataset is only as accurate as what Wyndham documents in the CWA POS versions. In some cases the data reported isn’t entirely accurate so the statistics are skewed as a result. This is only the case for a small minority of the resorts though. I’m maturing the dataset over time so it will get better. 



> Also, is it possible that some degree of ARP visibility is to accommodate VIP RARPs?



This is why the examples I posted go out 12 months - since RARP only goes out to 11 months. 


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## Eric B

Roger that on the 12 months.  My thought was that they could have economized on allowing VIPs to see the ARP availability rather than adding another category to reflect the actual reservation eligibility.  The limitation does come in for booking, of course, though that's also something they could have erred in implementing.


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## SNA27

HitchHiker71 said:


> This is generally only true in the ARP window as BD said.
> 
> 
> 
> What CWA owns across the resorts varies widely. I actually maintain a spreadsheet containing exactly what inventory CWA owns that I built based upon multiple versions of the CWA POS published over time. It’s available in one of the FB groups that I’m an admin for where we publish this data for our group members. Here’s an excerpt from the sheet in question showing the exact inventory data for all CWA Florida resorts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Could you post the name of the Facebook Group? Is it open to anyone to join? 
I am on Facebook but rarely go there. This may give me some reason to see what's going with FB.


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## Richelle

I am probably opening up a huge can of worms by posting this, but after some deliberation, I felt it would be unfair to hold this information back because of a few people.  Let’s stop the fear mongering please.

I spoke, over email, with Annie Roberts, VP of owner and Club services.  I asked about resale points getting VIP benefits, and if that would change with Privileges. Her answer is below. Looks like we are safe from changes for at least another year. Maybe longer.  If it ever does become financially feasible and beneficial for them to restrict resale from getting VIP benefits, I’m sure they would do it. However, if it’s not costing them anything, and if they feel it’s beneficial to maintain the status quo, they won’t likely change it anytime soon.



“VIP Discounts with Resale – our Product Development team shared we have talked a lot over the years about restricting usgage of resale contract points for any type of VIP benefits. For the Privileges changes they decided not to do anything this year because it would cost a lot more and increase our timeline.“


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## paxsarah

Richelle said:


> because it would cost a lot more and increase our timeline



This sounds to me like it's on the table in concept, but they've determined the necessary IT updates for it would be too expensive and take too long for this go-round.


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## Jan M.

paxsarah said:


> This sounds to me like it's on the table in concept, but they've determined the necessary IT updates for it would be too expensive and take too long for this go-round.



I agree that it certainly sounds like it's been discussed. I've seen people posting that will never happen. If there is one life lesson I've learned it's to never say never.


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## Richelle

paxsarah said:


> This sounds to me like it's on the table in concept, but they've determined the necessary IT updates for it would be too expensive and take too long for this go-round.



That is my thinking too.


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## HitchHiker71

Richelle said:


> That is my thinking too.



I think it’s a combination of this plus the fact that it’s not costly enough to Wyndham to do anything about it. The cost of the VIP program is funded primarily by the program fees. If the use of resale points by VIPs were to become so costly that the program fees could no longer cover the associated costs - then I think Wyndham would consider implementing the limits. 

My sense is that the costs to eliminate the functionality from the current system are significantly greater than the costs to pay for the benefit. This is simple cost benefit analysis in action - the ROI is what really matters. If it doesn’t make good fiscal business sense to do something then it won’t be done, especially when doing so will upset your most loyal customers. 


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## Eric B

HitchHiker71 said:


> I think it’s a combination of this plus the fact that it’s not costly enough to Wyndham to do anything about it. The cost of the VIP program is funded primarily by the program fees. If the use of resale points by VIPs were to become so costly that the program fees could no longer cover the associated costs - then I think Wyndham would consider implementing the limits.
> 
> My sense is that the costs to eliminate the functionality from the current system are significantly greater than the costs to pay for the benefit. This is simple cost benefit analysis in action - the ROI is what really matters. If it doesn’t make good fiscal business sense to do something then it won’t be done, especially when doing so will upset your most loyal customers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I agree to a certain extent, but think it's not really all that simple a cost-benefit analysis.  IMHO, the cost side is predominated by things that aren't significant direct costs to Wyndham because they represent discounts and upgrades on vacant units in the short term (30, 45 or 60 days prior to check in); the true costs that should really come into play would be the systemic friction preventing VIP owners not using resale points from getting the benefits for the vacant units taken by VIP owners using resale points.  There's likely a minor cost differential to providing the different room sizes for the upgrades.  As far as the discounts go, there may have been fairly significant costs associated with the cancel and rebook method that was going on before, but now the costs are likely lower and represent (to me, anyway) improperly priced units where a VIP can monitor availability and rebook then cancel to obtain the discount or where a VIP is induced by the lower cost to book in the short term.

The real costs would be potential impact on the marketing and reputation for Wyndham to non-resale owning VIPs that have diminished access to the benefits.  This is likely not a significant issue because the benefits are not guaranteed and subject to availability; it's also probably unlikely that such a VIP would learn that the cause of the non-availability was due to VIPs using resale contracts to book them.  If it becomes widespread to the point that it essentially eliminates VIP benefit availability, I could see them doing something; instead it strikes me as broadening the target market for incentives to book units that would otherwise not be used.

I'm not confident that this is how they are thinking about these things, but it couldn't hurt to share the perspective that the benefits serve a marketing function in that manner; it might help motivate them to maintain them.


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## HitchHiker71

Eric B said:


> I agree to a certain extent, but think it's not really all that simple a cost-benefit analysis. IMHO, the cost side is predominated by things that aren't significant direct costs to Wyndham because they represent discounts and upgrades on vacant units in the short term (30, 45 or 60 days prior to check in); the true costs that should really come into play would be the systemic friction preventing VIP owners not using resale points from getting the benefits for the vacant units taken by VIP owners using resale points. There's likely a minor cost differential to providing the different room sizes for the upgrades. As far as the discounts go, there may have been fairly significant costs associated with the cancel and rebook method that was going on before, but now the costs are likely lower and represent (to me, anyway) improperly priced units where a VIP can monitor availability and rebook then cancel to obtain the discount or where a VIP is induced by the lower cost to book in the short term.
> 
> The real costs would be potential impact on the marketing and reputation for Wyndham to non-resale owning VIPs that have diminished access to the benefits. This is likely not a significant issue because the benefits are not guaranteed and subject to availability; it's also probably unlikely that such a VIP would learn that the cause of the non-availability was due to VIPs using resale contracts to book them. If it becomes widespread to the point that it essentially eliminates VIP benefit availability, I could see them doing something; instead it strikes me as broadening the target market for incentives to book units that would otherwise not be used.
> 
> I'm not confident that this is how they are thinking about these things, but it couldn't hurt to share the perspective that the benefits serve a marketing function in that manner; it might help motivate them to maintain them.



I was not implying that the cost benefit analysis itself was simplistic in nature and would only come down to two metrics - program cost vs estimated product development cost - but rather that all business decision points must be supported by established tangible, and in most cases rationalized, metrics. These types of metrics are weighted much more heavily than intangibles IME. Unless the potential marketing and reputational components, along with the inventory contention you mention, can be measured and reported - then they won’t really matter. If these items can be measured then I would agree they would be valuable to address. 

I know for a fact that the VIP discount windows are tracked metrics as these are direct costs which are funded primarily by the program fees. I would have to inquire as to whether any of the other points you are raising here have metrics available that Wyndham has at their disposal.


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## dgalati

Richelle said:


> I am probably opening up a huge can of worms by posting this, but after some deliberation, I felt it would be unfair to hold this information back because of a few people.  Let’s stop the fear mongering please.
> 
> I spoke, over email, with Annie Roberts, VP of owner and Club services.  I asked about resale points getting VIP benefits, and if that would change with Privileges. Her answer is below. Looks like we are safe from changes for at least another year. Maybe longer.  If it ever does become financially feasible and beneficial for them to restrict resale from getting VIP benefits, I’m sure they would do it. However, if it’s not costing them anything, and if they feel it’s beneficial to maintain the status quo, they won’t likely change it anytime soon.
> 
> 
> 
> “VIP Discounts with Resale – our Product Development team shared we have talked a lot over the years about restricting usgage of resale contract points for any type of VIP benefits. For the Privileges changes they decided not to do anything this year because it would cost a lot more and increase our timeline.“


@Richelle my initial post about resale points being used as a VIP benefit was not intended to cause fear or mislead. The use of resale points with VIP benefits is clearly stated in owners directory but it is not enforced.   I think many were not aware that this statement was in the member directory and the only thing they have to fear is if Wyndham ever enforces this rule.


Dec 26, 2019

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#171



> dgalati said:
> Can anyone tell me if this is a defined VIP benefit in the owners directory or just a loophole?




[IMG alt="CO skier"]https://tugbbs.com/forums/data/avatars/m/63/63558.jpg?1576775595[/IMG]
*CO skier
TUG Member*
JoinedSep 18, 2012Messages1,929Reaction score500Points193LocationColorado
Dec 26, 2019

Add bookmark
#172



> dgalati said:
> The next thing Wyndham can do to help availability for all owners is to stop the use of resale points for VIP owners when booking in the 50% discount window. Can anyone tell me if this is a defined VIP benefit in the owners directory or just a loophole?


This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:

_"*Important Information about VIP Membership*

Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."_


One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory.


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----------



## Braindead

dgalati said:


> @Richelle my initial post about resale points being used as a VIP benefit was not intended to cause fear or mislead. The use of resale points with VIP benefits is clearly stated in owners directory but it is not enforced.   I think many were not aware that this statement was in the member directory and the only thing they have to fear is if Wyndham ever enforces this rule.
> 
> 
> Dec 26, 2019
> 
> Add bookmark
> #171
> 
> 
> 
> [IMG alt="CO skier"]https://tugbbs.com/forums/data/avatars/m/63/63558.jpg?1576775595[/IMG]
> *CO skier
> TUG Member*
> JoinedSep 18, 2012Messages1,929Reaction score500Points193LocationColorado
> Dec 26, 2019
> 
> Add bookmark
> #172
> 
> This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:
> 
> _"*Important Information about VIP Membership*
> 
> Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."_
> 
> 
> One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory.
> 
> 
> Report
> 
> 
> Reactions:You


Why don’t you have the same vendetta on how points get used in ALL accounts? Directory doesn’t allow deposited points to be used for ARP or to possibly be deposited again or to be deposited in RCI. But the system does allow all of those uses of deposited points.
Is this a loophole & is it being abused? Is it hurting all owners availability?
Be careful what you wish for. You evidently don’t think points should be blind.
If it’s in the directory that‘s the way it has to be or it’s a loophole & being abused hurting all owners is that your opinion?
Do you want to take away the discounted reservations for non VIPs?
Richelle post makes it perfectly clear that Wyndham understands how resale points are treated in a VIP account & they’ve clearly decided it’s not a problem that needs attention now!! So get over it !!


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## SNA27

Working with the Voyager reservation system, it's apparent to me that it's a frontend inquiry system and it's not the keeper of any records and reservation transactions take place at the backend. I have done a lot of experiments in the ARP window trying to make reservations at resorts where I have CWS and those where I do not. I see a rate-plan query coming into play which is just an ACK-NACK query (YES-NO). When I book WBC (where I have 84k points), it offers to book 136,000 points worth room only for the backend to reject it and Voyager pleads 'Mea Culpa' and throws me entirely out of the booking dialog so I have to start all over. Voyager is a window into the backend, that's all! I hope they don't spend one more penny on it before fixing the backend.

The backend database is currently not structured properly with a mishmash of resale and retail deeds comingled under a single master entity called MEMBER. USE-YEAR dataset which is a child of MEMBER gets comingled points from resale and retail deeds. So, you need cumbersome and spaghetti code to really enforce VIP benefit rules.
A more elegant structure would be to segregate resale and retail deeds under a new child entity of MEMBER called ACCOUNT. Accounts will be either RETAIL or RESALE and hold the corresponding deeds. PRIVILEGES or BENEFITS will be subordinate to the ACCOUNT and not MEMBER. When I get some time, I will explain this with a Database diagram. It will be so much easier to understand.
The result will be so much more elegant and simple to program the rules of the Privilege program.

What I am saying is nothing earth-shattering. It's a common-sense design. I am sure there are smart people in Wyndham IT and they already know this. Only politics and inertia must be stopping them from doing this. They can't forever be playing around the edges. They have to go in and take care of the structural flaw. They will save millions in the long run. Otherwise, they will keep spending millions coming up with BOLT-ON-UGLY solutions.
Fix the foundation before you build on it! Just saying.


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## SNA27

HitchHiker71 said:


> If it doesn’t make good fiscal business sense to do something then it won’t be done, especially when doing so will upset your most loyal customers.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Do you really think the removal of an unpromised windfall will upset loyal customers?
If it did, who's to blame? Wyndham or the customer? As I said elsewhere, the Customer is not always right. Right is always right and wrong is always wrong.


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## Richelle

dgalati said:


> @Richelle my initial post about resale points being used as a VIP benefit was not intended to cause fear or mislead. The use of resale points with VIP benefits is clearly stated in owners directory but it is not enforced. I think many were not aware that this statement was in the member directory and the only thing they have to fear is if Wyndham ever enforces this rule.
> 
> 
> Dec 26, 2019
> 
> Add bookmark
> #171
> 
> 
> 
> [IMG alt="CO skier"]https://tugbbs.com/forums/data/avatars/m/63/63558.jpg?1576775595[/IMG]
> *CO skier
> TUG Member*
> JoinedSep 18, 2012Messages1,929Reaction score500Points193LocationColorado
> Dec 26, 2019
> 
> Add bookmark
> #172
> 
> This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:
> 
> _"*Important Information about VIP Membership*
> 
> Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."_
> 
> 
> One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory.
> 
> 
> Report
> 
> 
> Reactions:You



It wasn’t just about one post. There is a lot of fear mongering going in here and on other threads. The back and forth was getting old too. I just didn’t want to kickstart the whole thing all over.


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## HitchHiker71

SNA27 said:


> Do you really think the removal of an unpromised windfall will upset loyal customers?
> If it did, who's to blame? Wyndham or the customer? As I said elsewhere, the Customer is not always right. Right is always right and wrong is always wrong.



Yes, I do. In the modern business world - customer experience reigns supreme. Metrics such as CSAT, CES, NPS, and polling for impact on proposed changes carry very heavy weighting with respect to relevant business decisions. If a change is under review, and the metrics indicate that the change is going to negatively impact the customer experience, then placing blame is moot, and the change will not be approved. To ignore customer sentiment is to sign your own death warrant in today’s business climate IME. 


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## Richelle

SNA27 said:


> Do you really think the removal of an unpromised windfall will upset loyal customers?
> If it did, who's to blame? Wyndham or the customer? As I said elsewhere, the Customer is not always right. Right is always right and wrong is always wrong.



Removing the cancel rebook loophole created a huge backlash. That was not “benefit” but many owners treated it as such, because a sales person told them it was. That’s on Wyndham. I think taking away VIP benefits from resale points, would upset a lot of VIPs, myself included. I know it’s not promised, and if dgalati’s interpretation of the directory is correct, then it’s not supposed to be allowed. Still, they allowed it to continue when they could have changed things with the last system launch. So yes, it would upset a lot of loyal customers. People are still mad about them taking away cancel rebook. If they take this away to soon, they will lose people and there will also be fewer resale contracts being sold. 

The day they announce they are taking away the ability to use resale points to make discounted reservations that are eligible for free upgrades, is the day I take a two week vacation from Facebook and possibly TUG. The rants will be plentiful and long.


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## SNA27

Braindead said:


> Why don’t you have the same vendetta on how points get used in ALL accounts? Directory doesn’t allow deposited points to be used for ARP or to possibly be deposited again or to be deposited in RCI. But the system does allow all of those uses of deposited points.
> Is this a loophole & is it being abused? Is it hurting all owners availability?
> Be careful what you wish for. You evidently don’t think points should be blind.
> If it’s in the directory that‘s the way it has to be or it’s a loophole & being abused hurting all owners is that your opinion?
> Do you want to take away the discounted reservations for non VIPs?
> Richelle post makes it perfectly clear that Wyndham understands how resale points are treated in a VIP account & they’ve clearly decided it’s not a problem that needs attention now!! So get over it !!



With all due respect, Sir, you can make the same argument without attributing vendetta to his perfectly reasonable assertion that resale points do not qualify for VIP Benefits. 

There's a legal concept that says he doesn't waive his rights in a particular instance because of his failure to assert his rights in other instances, granting your claim without verification that he did so. Perhaps @Grammarhero can cite the legal precept.


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## SNA27

Richelle said:


> Removing the cancel rebook loophole created a huge backlash. That was not “benefit” but many owners treated it as such, because a sales person told them it was. That’s on Wyndham. I think taking away VIP benefits from resale points, would upset a lot of VIPs, myself included. I know it’s not promised, and if dgalati’s interpretation of the directory is correct, then it’s not supposed to be allowed. Still, they allowed it to continue when they could have changed things with the last system launch. So yes, it would upset a lot of loyal customers. People are still mad about them taking away cancel rebook. If they take this away to soon, they will lose people and there will also be fewer resale contracts being sold.
> 
> The day they announce they are taking away the ability to use resale points to make discounted reservations that are eligible for free upgrades, is the day I take a two week vacation from Facebook and possibly TUG. The rants will be plentiful and long.



So, what will happen? They are captive customers with prepaid vacations. Will they get upset and turn their deeds into Ovation? I remember a quote from a captain of industry saying' if customers are sullen, it's ok, if they're rebellious, it's time to worry'. So will Wyndham VIPs be sullen or rebellious? We can't even take our business elsewhere. We're captives!


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## SNA27

HitchHiker71 said:


> Yes, I do. In the modern business world - customer experience reigns supreme. Metrics such as CSAT, CES, NPS, and polling for impact on proposed changes carry very heavy weighting with respect to relevant business decisions. If a change is under review, and the metrics indicate that the change is going to negatively impact the customer experience, then placing blame is moot, and the change will not be approved. To ignore customer sentiment is to sign your own death warrant in today’s business climate IME.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Are your customers captive or free to take their business elsewhere? I bet new retail VIP purchasers of Wyndham (like me) will be happy to know that they're on a level playing field. And that some VIPS are not more VIP than others. I could very easily acquire millions in resale contracts but I am not interested in setting up a rental business nor do I have the energy required to manage it. If I can rent enough to cover my annual MF, that's good enough for me. If I can't, so be it.

I have no ax to grind. I don't care if resale points qualify for VIP benefits or not. But what I detest is the selective enforcement of rules that were previously agreed to by all parties. That's not conducive to law and order. In any society, people may accede to a harsh rule (if you ever lived under HOA rules, you know as to what I am alluding) but what they can't stand is a select few bending it in their favor, imo.


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## SNA27

Ok, I am going to call it a good night! But before I do, let me make a few things clear.
I have the highest regard for @HitchHiker71 and his level-headed thinking.
I love @Jan M.'s posts and look forward to them.
I like @Braindead's take-no-prisoners blunt talk. He knows the system.
I like @Grammarhero and his upright attitude, He's a real-life Don Quixote or Zorro depending on your hero preference.
I like @dgalati while I disagree with his schemes. He means well and he has his perspective and he should be allowed to have it.
@Richelle talks seldom but when she does, she knows what she's talking about.
@paxsarah is brief and to the point and hits the nail on the head.
In my sojourn here, believe me, I know a lot about who's who.
I like so many others here and I am disturbed by a few, no big deal.
But we're all in it together. Can't we all get along? As St. Rodney famously pleaded.
Discuss 'WHAT's said' and not 'WHO said it'. That will make us a perfect Bobsled Team winning the Gold Medal in Olympics.


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> Ok, I am going to call it a good night! But before I do, let me make a few things clear.
> I have the highest regard for @HitchHiker71 and his level-headed thinking.
> I love @Jan M.'s posts and look forward to them.
> I like @Braindead's take-no-prisoners blunt talk. He knows the system.
> I like @Grammarhero and his upright attitude, He's a real-life Don Quixote or Zorro depending on your hero preference.
> I like @dgalati while I disagree with his schemes. He means well and he has his perspective and he should be allowed to have it.
> @Richelle talks seldom but when she does, she knows what she's talking about.
> @paxsarah is brief and to the point and hits the nail on the head.
> In my sojourn here, believe me, I know a lot about who's who.
> I like so many others here and I am disturbed by a few, no big deal.
> But we're all in it together. Can't we all get along? As St. Rodney famously pleaded.
> Discuss 'WHAT's said' and not 'WHO said it'. That will make us a perfect Bobsled Team winning the Gold Medal in Olympics.


Scheme? I believe that term is incorrect. I use my ownership to maximize the $/1000. To be clear I break no rules in owner directory nor do I skirt a rule Wyndham is not enforcing. Ovations is good for Wyndham and any owner that uses it can use current use year points according to Wyndham rules. No rule against trading of deeds also - Wyndham does it every day like I stated in past posts they bought 4 of my deeds last year after I used current use year points. Wyndham was happy to pay me 3.50/1000 for something they could sell for 200/1000. I was happy to cover my sunk cost and use all current use year points. I consider it a Win for both parties.


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> Ok, I am going to call it a good night! But before I do, let me make a few things clear.
> I have the highest regard for @HitchHiker71 and his level-headed thinking.
> I love @Jan M.'s posts and look forward to them.
> I like @Braindead's take-no-prisoners blunt talk. He knows the system.
> I like @Grammarhero and his upright attitude, He's a real-life Don Quixote or Zorro depending on your hero preference.
> I like @dgalati while I disagree with his schemes. He means well and he has his perspective and he should be allowed to have it.
> @Richelle talks seldom but when she does, she knows what she's talking about.
> @paxsarah is brief and to the point and hits the nail on the head.
> In my sojourn here, believe me, I know a lot about who's who.
> I like so many others here and I am disturbed by a few, no big deal.
> But we're all in it together. Can't we all get along? As St. Rodney famously pleaded.
> Discuss 'WHAT's said' and not 'WHO said it'. That will make us a perfect Bobsled Team winning the Gold Medal in Olympics.


Yes you are spot on with your observation of posters on this forum.


----------



## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> This is from page 345 of the Club Wyndham Directory:
> 
> _"*Important Information about VIP Membership*
> 
> Eligible points are those purchased from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or an authorized affiliate. Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status and are not eligible for VIP benefits."_
> 
> 
> One would think that if Wyndham wants the new Founders level in Privileges to amount to anything, they would read their own Directory



There is no page 345 in the Club Wyndham Members Directory.  The PDF version that I have readily available ends on page 310.  Are you referring to page 245?  If so, then the _current 2018-2019 directory _has no such verbiage anywhere in the VIP section - let alone page 245. Can you please clarify exactly where you are sourcing this information from? I just performed a FTI search on the current directory using the following text string: "_Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status"  _I got zero hits back.  I then backed it off to search for "resale contracts" followed by "resale" alone - again zero hits on any verbiage that supports the claim from your post.  I cannot find any verbiage that exists for resale points with respect to VIP in the current members directory.

Lastly, I will point to the key verbiage that underlies the entire VIP section:  VIP Program benefits are subject to change or elimination without notice.

So while some may feel that allowing for resale contract points "breaks the rules", the fact is that Wyndham can change the rules for the entire VIP program at their discretion, without notice, as they have clearly done here.


----------



## HitchHiker71

SNA27 said:


> Are your customers captive or free to take their business elsewhere? I bet new retail VIP purchasers of Wyndham (like me) will be happy to know that they're on a level playing field. And that some VIPS are not more VIP than others. I could very easily acquire millions in resale contracts but I am not interested in setting up a rental business nor do I have the energy required to manage it. If I can rent enough to cover my annual MF, that's good enough for me. If I can't, so be it.
> 
> I have no ax to grind. I don't care if resale points qualify for VIP benefits or not. But what I detest is the selective enforcement of rules that were previously agreed to by all parties. That's not conducive to law and order. In any society, people may accede to a harsh rule (if you ever lived under HOA rules, you know as to what I am alluding) but what they can't stand is a select few bending it in their favor, imo.



VIPs are not on a level playing field.  The entire purpose of the VIP program is to grant greater amounts of benefits based upon a tiered system - which by definition means the playing field is not level - it is tiered.  I'm VIPP - I in fact have better benefits than someone who is VIPG or VIPS.  That's the reality.  I'm sorry, but I disagree with your assessment.  There are not rules agreed to by all parties within the member directory, as the directory clearly indicates:  VIP Program benefits are subject to change or elimination without notice.  Wyndham alone can change or eliminate the entire program - and members have zero say in their decision - again not a level playing field.  The only thing "all parties have agreed to" here is that Wyndham has complete discretionary control over the playing field.  Go look at the other programs listed in the member directory - they all have similar verbiage.  Subject to change.

The real "rules" that everyone has agreed to are not in the members directory, they are in the signed contractual documents.  The legal trust documents and the contracts based upon the trust documents that we have all signed contain the real rules for the playing field, not the members directory.  The members directory outlines various programs that Wyndham manages - most of which are subject to change and/or termination at any time.


----------



## paxsarah

HitchHiker71 said:


> There is no page 345 in the Club Wyndham Members Directory. The PDF version that I have readily available ends on page 310. Are you referring to page 245? If so, then the _current 2018-2019 directory _has no such verbiage anywhere in the VIP section - let alone page 245. Can you please clarify exactly where you are sourcing this information from? I just performed a FTI search on the current directory using the following text string: "_Points from resale contracts do not count toward VIP status" _I got zero hits back. I then backed it off to search for "resale contracts" followed by "resale" alone - again zero hits on any verbiage that outlines what you claim above. I cannot find any verbiage that you claim exists in the current members directory.
> 
> Lastly, I will point to the key verbiage that underlies the entire VIP section: VIP Program benefits are subject to change or elimination without notice.


That language appears on page 345 of the _2014-15_ members directory. Since the verbiage no longer appears in the 2018-19 directory (and indeed, the language in the VIP section has had minor revisions throughout from the prior directory), it seems that one can safely assume that Wyndham exercised their right to change the VIP program at any time.


----------



## HitchHiker71

SNA27 said:


> Ok, I am going to call it a good night! But before I do, let me make a few things clear.
> I have the highest regard for @HitchHiker71 and his level-headed thinking.
> I love @Jan M.'s posts and look forward to them.
> I like @Braindead's take-no-prisoners blunt talk. He knows the system.
> I like @Grammarhero and his upright attitude, He's a real-life Don Quixote or Zorro depending on your hero preference.
> I like @dgalati while I disagree with his schemes. He means well and he has his perspective and he should be allowed to have it.
> @Richelle talks seldom but when she does, she knows what she's talking about.
> @paxsarah is brief and to the point and hits the nail on the head.
> In my sojourn here, believe me, I know a lot about who's who.
> I like so many others here and I am disturbed by a few, no big deal.
> But we're all in it together. Can't we all get along? As St. Rodney famously pleaded.
> Discuss 'WHAT's said' and not 'WHO said it'. That will make us a perfect Bobsled Team winning the Gold Medal in Olympics.



I will join in the Kumbaya moment and say a HUGE "thank you" to everyone for their contributions.  We can at times agree to disagree and that's perfectly acceptable.  This forum is a microcosm to me of our macro societal environment - which appears to be very divided at present - especially within the political spectrum.  The fact that we can remain civil here, is to be commended.


----------



## CO skier

HitchHiker71 said:


> I cannot find any verbiage that exists for resale points with respect to VIP in the current members directory.


The current guidelines still make a distinction between developer purchases and resale purchases for VIP eligibility.  It is inconsistent that the distinction was not and is not enforced, and that the distinction is footnoted for some benefits and not others; but hey, it’s Wyndham.  The website programming may never catch-up to the rules.


From page 241 of the Directory

*Eligibility Requirements*

Only CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, ownership interests acquired by will or intestate succession, ownership interests acquired by “Immediate Relative” of members, or through PIC enrollments count toward VIP status.  “Immediate Relative” currently includes parents, spouses, domestic partners, siblings, children and grandchildren.
Purchases of ownership interests made from private individuals or resale companies will not count toward the total points required for VIP eligibility.


From page 242 of the Directory (footnote to Platinum VIP Guest Confirmations)

4 Eligible points are points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, Bonus Points and PIC Points (see *Eligibility Requirements* above).


----------



## HitchHiker71

CO skier said:


> The current guidelines still make a distinction between developer purchases and resale purchases for VIP eligibility.  It is inconsistent that the distinction was not and is not enforced, and that the distinction is footnoted for some benefits and not others; but hey, it’s Wyndham.  The website programming may never catch-up to the rules.
> 
> 
> From page 241 of the Directory
> 
> *Eligibility Requirements*
> 
> Only CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, ownership interests acquired by will or intestate succession, ownership interests acquired by “Immediate Relative” of members, or through PIC enrollments count toward VIP status.  “Immediate Relative” currently includes parents, spouses, domestic partners, siblings, children and grandchildren.
> Purchases of ownership interests made from private individuals or resale companies will not count toward the total points required for VIP eligibility.
> 
> 
> From page 242 of the Directory (footnote to Platinum VIP Guest Confirmations)
> 
> 4 Eligible points are points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, Bonus Points and PIC Points (see *Eligibility Requirements* above).



Agreed, however the verbiage that some here are hanging their hats on with respect to resale points not being eligible for VIP benefits has in fact been removed.  VIP eligibility verbiage is still there, but VIP benefits for resale points is not.


----------



## CO skier

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed, however the verbiage that some here are hanging their hats on with respect to resale points not being eligible for VIP benefits has in fact been removed.


Lots of guesses as to why this might be.  Maybe Wyndham did not want to advertise the resale market anymore than they have to.

Why have a VIP program if resale points are "as good as VIP" under some conditions?  That seems to be the intent of the Eligibility Requirements.  The intent is, for some reason, not implemented.  As many point out, that may or may not change in the future.  Until or unless something changes in this regard, it is all just idle guesswork.


----------



## Eric B

The way I read the statement is that retail points count towards what status you have as an owner while resale points do not.  Once you have that status, it doesn’t really matter where the points came from.  That’s also how it’s implemented.  Could change in the future, of course, but that’s how it works now.

If they were to change it, presumably they would also have to stop charging the extra 2 cents for the program fee for resale points, i.e., the differential for Plus Partners, which they do charge for mixed accounts.


----------



## Braindead

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agreed, however the verbiage that some here are hanging their hats on with respect to resale points not being eligible for VIP benefits has in fact been removed.  VIP eligibility verbiage is still there, but VIP benefits for resale points is not.


I just can’t get over that none of us noticed this before.
You made me get the directory out & read it again, wow it’s not there. I would’ve swore it was the same verbiage as the prior directory.

Now in essence some are advocating VIPs with resale points lose yet another benefit.


----------



## CO skier

Braindead said:


> Now in essence some are advocating VIPs with resale points lose yet another benefit.





			
				Ronald Reagan said:
			
		

> “There you go again.”



VIPs thought cancel/rebook of any reservation for a VIP 25%, 35%, 50% discount was a “benefit”; it was not, because it was not written in any Directory.

Piggybacking resale points for VIP benefits is not written in any Directory (quite the opposite is), so it is not a VIP “benefit.”  It is something Wyndham allows, for now.  If it ever goes away, it is not a "lost benefit.”


----------



## ecwinch

Eric B said:


> The way I read the statement is that retail points count towards what status you have as an owner while resale points do not.  Once you have that status, it doesn’t really matter where the points came from.  That’s also how it’s implemented.  Could change in the future, of course, but that’s how it works now.
> 
> If they were to change it, presumably they would also have to stop charging the extra 2 cents for the program fee for resale points, i.e., the differential for Plus Partners, which they do charge for mixed accounts.



That is a the balanced perspective.... that it is the "account" that achieves VIP status, and then the account is entitled to the VIP Benefits - without regard to the nature of the points that are in the account.


----------



## SNA27

dgalati said:


> Scheme? I believe that term is incorrect. I use my ownership to maximize the $/1000. To be clear I break no rules in owner directory nor do I skirt a rule Wyndham is not enforcing. Ovations is good for Wyndham and any owner that uses it can use current use year points according to Wyndham rules. No rule against trading of deeds also - Wyndham does it every day like I stated in past posts they bought 4 of my deeds last year after I used current use year points. Wyndham was happy to pay me 3.50/1000 for something they could sell for 200/1000. I was happy to cover my sunk cost and use all current use year points. I consider it a Win for both parties.



Ron Parise was completely transparent and made full disclosure to his buyers. His buyers were willing to buy FUTURE contracts while paying current MF. It all balances out. 
Did you make such full disclosure to Ovations? If you had made full disclosure and they were still willing buyers, then I guess there's no issue. But the difference is an individual buyer has skin in the game and makes rational decisions based on self-interest, but an Ovation employee has no skin in the game and is simply following some directives from the bureaucrats up above. You could argue that  it's a distinction without a difference and that it's on Wyndham. If Wyndham is a willing buyer with the benefit of full disclosure, I am out of credible arguments. Moral posturing is not an argument in the real world governed by amoral rules. Keep doing what you're doing until it comes to its inevitable end.


----------



## SNA27

HitchHiker71 said:


> VIPs are not on a level playing field.  The entire purpose of the VIP program is to grant greater amounts of benefits based upon a tiered system - which by definition means the playing field is not level - it is tiered.  I'm VIPP - I in fact have better benefits than someone who is VIPG or VIPS.  That's the reality.  I'm sorry, but I disagree with your assessment.  There are not rules agreed to by all parties within the member directory, as the directory clearly indicates:  VIP Program benefits are subject to change or elimination without notice.  Wyndham alone can change or eliminate the entire program - and members have zero say in their decision - again not a level playing field.  The only thing "all parties have agreed to" here is that Wyndham has complete discretionary control over the playing field.  Go look at the other programs listed in the member directory - they all have similar verbiage.  Subject to change.
> 
> The real "rules" that everyone has agreed to are not in the members directory, they are in the signed contractual documents.  The legal trust documents and the contracts based upon the trust documents that we have all signed contain the real rules for the playing field, not the members directory.  The members directory outlines various programs that Wyndham manages - most of which are subject to change and/or termination at any time.



Having progressed from Silver to Gold to Platinum and recently to the promised land of the Founders, I am well aware of the VIP levels. I was alluding to a level playing field between VIP Retail only and VIP with resale and the latter's 'ill-gotten' benefits as per the directive that the resale points do not qualify for VIP benefits. Perhaps, it's moot since you have discovered that Wyndham omitted that verbiage in the latest directory.

As for the rules: when I signed up with Wyndham, I gave them a carte blanche to make rules and agreed to abide them. So, I implicitly gave consent to and agreed to abide by any rule they make as long as they don't contravene local, state and federal laws.
It's no different from vesting the power to legislate in the representative you elect. It scarcely matters whether you agree with the laws they enact but you're bound to abide by them.


----------



## CO skier

ecwinch said:


> That is a the balanced perspective.... that it is the "account" that achieves VIP status, and then the account is entitled to the VIP Benefits - without regard to the nature of the points that are in the account.


That is not the way it works in WorldMark ...

...just sayin'.


----------



## Eric B

CO skier said:


> That is not the way it works in WorldMark ...
> 
> ...just sayin'.



The differences between the two systems are part of the reason why I recently agreed to acquire a small WorldMark contract.  This way I’ll have a different set of rules to work with that provides for different methods and abilities to use resale contracts that I believe will be beneficial in my circumstances.  I did my research to learn how they work first this time and recognize they don’t work the same; if they did, I don’t think I would have done that, but more likely would have added some resale points to my Wyndham VIPG account.  It is most definitely not an apples to apples comparison between the two.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller

dgalati said:


> Scheme? I believe that term is incorrect. I use my ownership to maximize the $/1000. To be clear I break no rules in owner directory nor do I skirt a rule Wyndham is not enforcing. Ovations is good for Wyndham and any owner that ......


Scheme -
Perhaps the term was written to imply  the British version of usage .
I believe in UK / British English the term “scheme “ basically means program or plan ,
sometimes as an offering by businesses to potential customers.
(ie) “Wyndham’s newest scheme will be called Privileges “

The UK tabloids are probably writing that Megxit is a scheme .
but if I understand the UK word usage correctly that is not a perjorative term .
The tabloids will use other terms for the trash talking .


----------



## dgalati

CO skier said:


> VIPs thought cancel/rebook of any reservation for a VIP 25%, 35%, 50% discount was a “benefit”; it was not, because it was not written in any Directory.
> 
> Piggybacking resale points for VIP benefits is not written in any Directory (quite the opposite is), so it is not a VIP “benefit.”  It is something Wyndham allows, for now.  If it ever goes away, it is not a "lost benefit.”


After all the many posts I have come to the conclusion It can be justified depending on what side of the fence you are standing.  I think my question has been answered that it is not a defined benefit in owners directory and Wyndham is turning a blind eye to it as they did with cancel and rebook. Thanks to @Richelle for the insight that Wyndham has it on their radar and this (((loophole))) will not be changed at any time soon. Many owners have a better understanding of this thanks for everyone's input. @Richelle or @HitchHiker71 someone asked in a post from last week of page 345 "was it inadvertently omitted by error or was it done intentionally". We all know Wyndham can change the rules at any time until then learn the system enjoy the special times vacationing with family and make it work  $/1000 for your situation.


----------



## dgalati

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Scheme -
> Perhaps the term was written to imply  the British version of usage .
> I believe in UK / British English the term “scheme “ basically means program or plan .


If it  a scheme then to "plan" a vacation then I am guilty of this. LOL


----------



## CCdad

dgalati said:


> After all the many posts I have come to the conclusion It can be justified depending on what side of the fence you are standing. I think my question has been answered that it is not a defined benefit in owners directory and Wyndham is turning a blind eye to it as they did with cancel and rebook. Thanks to @Richelle for the insight that Wyndham has it on their radar and this (((loophole))) will not be changed at any time soon. Many owners have a better understanding of this thanks for everyone's input. @Richelle or @HitchHiker71 someone asked in a post from last week of page 345 "was it inadvertently omitted by error or was it done intentionally". We all know Wyndham can change the rules at any time until then learn the system enjoy the special times vacationing with family and make it work $/1000 for your situation.



@Eric B made a great point that both VIP and Plus Partners (PP) are set up today as an account level attribute. 

The potential annual lost program fee revenue if eligible PP account owners relinquished that attribute is significant, even at just .02 per 1K points. 

At some Wyndham locations, a single building can generate 2Bn in annual billable points (BC, Grand Desert, Canterbury, Hawaii resorts, beach locations). It wouldn’t surprise me if there were in excess of 200Bn annual billable points system wide, excluding both PIC & bonus points. At .62 / .64 / .70 program fee per 1K (depending on your account attributes), that’s a lot of money to support the call center staff, Owner Care, IT improvements, etc.

Unfortunately many owners are either unaware of or use the PP benefits, or understand that they can relinquish PP to reduce their program fees.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Rolltydr

CCdad said:


> @Eric B made a great point that both VIP and Plus Partners (PP) are set up today as an account level attribute.
> ...
> Unfortunately many owners are either unaware of or use the PP benefits, or understand that they can relinquish PP to reduce their program fees.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I am apparently one of the unfortunate owners who is unaware of this.  Can you enlighten me, please? I don’t really use PP so how would I get out of that program?


----------



## paxsarah

CCdad said:


> Unfortunately many owners are either unaware of or use the PP benefits, *or understand that they can relinquish PP to reduce their program fees.*


This seems like a silly way to save a tiny amount of money. While at Wyndham’s level 2 cents per 1,000 can add up if you’re looking at at an entire resort, on the individual level it’s insignificant. On a million point account, that difference in program fee is $20 per year. Even as someone who only owns resale and has been perfectly happy without the Plus Partners benefits, if I already had it I’d happily pay $20/year to keep that program (although I’d only pay around $6 on my much smaller account).


----------



## Eric B

paxsarah said:


> This seems like a silly way to save a tiny amount of money. While at Wyndham’s level 2 cents per 1,000 can add up if you’re looking at at an entire resort, on the individual level it’s insignificant. On a million point account, that difference in program fee is $20 per year. Even as someone who only owns resale and has been perfectly happy without the Plus Partners benefits, if I already had it I’d happily pay $20/year to keep that program (although I’d only pay around $6 on my much smaller account).



That’s the tragedy of the commons, taking just a small amount from everyone....


----------



## Richelle

paxsarah said:


> This seems like a silly way to save a tiny amount of money. While at Wyndham’s level 2 cents per 1,000 can add up if you’re looking at at an entire resort, on the individual level it’s insignificant. On a million point account, that difference in program fee is $20 per year. Even as someone who only owns resale and has been perfectly happy without the Plus Partners benefits, if I already had it I’d happily pay $20/year to keep that program (although I’d only pay around $6 on my much smaller account).



The one and only benefit I might actually use with Plus Partners is RCI nightly stays. I have not used it yet, but it’s there if I want it. I’m happy to pay that small fee too.


----------



## CCdad

paxsarah said:


> This seems like a silly way to save a tiny amount of money. While at Wyndham’s level 2 cents per 1,000 can add up if you’re looking at at an entire resort, on the individual level it’s insignificant. On a million point account, that difference in program fee is $20 per year. Even as someone who only owns resale and has been perfectly happy without the Plus Partners benefits, if I already had it I’d happily pay $20/year to keep that program (although I’d only pay around $6 on my much smaller account).



Whether it’s $2 - $20 per account, when it’s upwards of 300k -500k eligible accounts that’s nothing to sneeze at. Heck if they’d put a fraction of that money into fixing the many Voyager flaws or educating the VCs that’s a good start. It’s a million or more in the aggregate.

And let’s consider the $299 that Title & Deeding collects per deed transfer. For 10k deed transfers and retail purchases per year, it would bring in $2.99 Mn a year. More than enough to hire more lawyers and many others that perform that function, albeit very slow for resale deed transfers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CCdad

Rolltydr said:


> I am apparently one of the unfortunate owners who is unaware of this. Can you enlighten me, please? I don’t really use PP so how would I get out of that program?



I don’t think that it’s handled by either Title and Deeding or Financial Services.

I’d start with a call to a VC, then request they connect you to Owner Care for help.

I do have PP and occasionally use it for nightly stays, maybe once every other year.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> After all the many posts I have come to the conclusion It can be justified depending on what side of the fence you are standing. I think my question has been answered that it is not a defined benefit in owners directory and Wyndham is turning a blind eye to it as they did with cancel and rebook. Thanks to @Richelle for the insight that Wyndham has it on their radar and this (((loophole))) will not be changed at any time soon. Many owners have a better understanding of this thanks for everyone's input. @Richelle or @HitchHiker71 someone asked in a post from last week of page 345 "was it inadvertently omitted by error or was it done intentionally". We all know Wyndham can change the rules at any time until then learn the system enjoy the special times vacationing with family and make it work $/1000 for your situation.




Agree 100% it is not a stated benefit and therefore it is simply an unnamed “perk” that can be negated at any point in time by Wyndham for VIPs. 

I’m in the camp that large corporations like Wyndham do not do anything by accident or via unintentional omission. Too many people have to review the content. I therefore feel it was intentionally omitted from the current directory - so as not to technically be in violation of their own stated program rules outlined in the member directory. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jan M.

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agree 100% it is not a stated benefit and therefore it is simply an unnamed “perk” that can be negated at any point in time by Wyndham for VIPs.
> 
> I’m in the camp that large corporations like Wyndham do not do anything by accident or via unintentional omission. Too many people have to review the content. I therefore feel it was intentionally omitted from the current directory - so as not to technically be in violation of their own stated program rules outlined in the member directory.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I hadn't thought of it being intentionally omitted for that reason. It is more likely that you are correct than I was in saying it was simply an oversight.


----------



## ecwinch

CO skier said:


> That is not the way it works in WorldMark ...
> 
> ...just sayin'.



“Just saying a non-sequitur” is what you might have posted. Especially given how the VIP benefits primarily under discussion here (VIP discount/unit upgrade) do not even exist in the Worldmark system.

And for the benefits that are common with the Worldmark VIP,  they are similar. There might be one exception, but as they say... exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis


----------



## Bumfoozeled

Cyrus24 said:


> I know the sales weasels lie!!!  But when they share info without trying to sell me something, I get to where I can’t tell if they are really lying or are they just lost in the previous lies.
> 
> Went to an update today at Emerald Grande, Destin.  Update part was normal except for where the presenter mentioned the new VIP levels that were announced (apparently only to sales) on 5/1/19 effective in 2020.  In the individual meeting, I received a bit more detail.
> 300K for Emerald (15% in the discount window)
> 400K for Gold
> 700k for Platinum
> 1000K for Diamond
> 1400K for Titanium
> Our salesperson even pulled out the note they received and flashed it in front of our eyes.  It looked like it would be shared with Owners on 5/16/19.  I had already had a bit of a contentious conversation with the weasel and was unable to snap a picture of the letter.  I also was not given time to read any of the FAQs.
> 
> I am Gold so I asked about how this would impact me.
> - Would I now be 'new' Platinum?  Only if I bought 64K points.
> - Well, what about my current Gold benefits?  I’d be Grandfathered.
> - Are New Platinum VIP benefits, at the new lower point level the same benefits as current day Platinum owners?  Don’t know.
> 
> At this point we were lost in the weeds and the salesperson seemed lost as well.  We never saw an option for buying more points and were rushed off to gifting.  It was an odd ending to the update.   Unless they were just totally BSing us, we are going to start hearing and seeing more on this change.  Hopefully those attending update sessions in the coming days can gather a bit more info on this change.
> 
> Side note.  The part of our individual session that got contentious was when the salesperson tried to tell me I'd missed the open enrollment period earlier in the year.  What open enrollment period?  For what new benefits?  5 things I was told.  1. New Perks (I have perks),  2.  Club Pass changes (ie. 10 months for WorldMark reservations),  3. New Rewards Card (they wanted me to apply for a new Rewards card, I'm not doing that), 4.  Plus Partners (have that, never saw any value for using) and 5. WWE or World Wide Exchange (I never understood what this was about and I'm sure it's a scam of some sort).
> 
> I always enjoy reading about updates.  Thought I'd share this one, as odd as it was.  The breakfast was good, BTW.


We find that we have always missed some supposed updates. We believe we are grandfathered into whatever category they are changing and don’t plan to buy more points. I enjoy Wyndham—but hate their sales pitches. Always lies.


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## SNA27

ecwinch said:


> “Just saying a non-sequitur” is what you might have posted. Especially given how the VIP benefits primarily under discussion here (VIP discount/unit upgrade) do not even exist in the Worldmark system.
> 
> And for the benefits that are common with the Worldmark VIP,  they are similar. There might be one exception, but as they say... exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis



Here's an interesting blog which takes exception to 'exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis'.





						exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis
					

English language teaching, TEFL, ELT, ESL, EFL, ELF, skepticism, scepticism, evidence based, research, meta-research, language, teaching,




					malingual.blogspot.com


----------



## dgalati

CCdad said:


> Whether it’s $2 - $20 per account, when it’s upwards of 300k -500k eligible accounts that’s nothing to sneeze at. Heck if they’d put a fraction of that money into fixing the many Voyager flaws or educating the VCs that’s a good start. It’s a million or more in the aggregate.
> 
> And let’s consider the $299 that Title & Deeding collects per deed transfer. For 10k deed transfers and retail purchases per year, it would bring in $2.99 Mn a year. More than enough to hire more lawyers and many others that perform that function, albeit very slow for resale deed transfers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The very slow transfers only on resale deeds when Wyndham isn't the third party buyer. I f Wyndham is the third party purchaser the ownership transfers in a week of deed being recorded.


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## CO skier

ecwinch said:


> “Just saying a non-sequitur” is what you might have posted. Especially given how the VIP benefits primarily under discussion here (VIP discount/unit upgrade) do not even exist in the Worldmark system.
> 
> And for the benefits that are common with the Worldmark VIP,  they are similar. There might be one exception, but as they say... exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis


The point that may have been lost in translation is, "Wyndham knows how to distinguish between resale points and developer points" if they want to.


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## Eric B

CO skier said:


> The point that may have been lost in translation is, "Wyndham knows how to distinguish between resale points and developer points" if they want to.



I would just add that there are different possible interpretations of the message to be drawn from the situation and the existence of the differences that can have a big impact on the business case for their treatment.  Wyndham operates many systems that are separate and distinct with different usage rules that lead to different IT implementations that are quite likely not ones that can be simply replicated and standardized across the systems due to the existing rules.  They made a choice, conscious or otherwise, not to distinguish between resale points and developer points, as well as points with different anniversary years, in the Club Wyndham system.  This resulted in the availability of VIP benefits to resale points owned by VIPs as well as the need to realign all of an owners anniversary dates to a single one.  If they were to choose to distinguish between the point sources there would be other unintended consequences they would need to work through such as:

Who chooses which points are used - a VIP would be motivated to use resale points for >60 days out in order to preserve the discount-eligible points as well as the upgrade-eligible points, but there could be special circumstances that change that motivation
If the system chooses the points used, whether or not multiple anniversary years are involved, should it be implemented as FIFO accounting of the points, and if so, how?
How many reservation transactions should be allowed for the resale points in a VIPG/VIPP account?  How do reservation transactions get counted for reservations that use both resale and retail points, or should that be forbidden?
How should housekeeping be accounted for the resale points in a VIP account?  Similar issues would apply as do for reservation transactions.
Would there be a need to implement different deadlines for various actions like Points for Deposit?  The treatment in Club Wyndham is considerably different than it is in WorldMark, where credits have lives that extend beyond their expiration dates.
Those are just the issues that come to mind immediately for me; I have no doubt that there are a lot of others that would need to be considered as well.  And that's not even thinking about how they would need to roll out those sorts of changes to existing VIPs or what kind of reactions they would get.  Bottom line for me is that they could make the choice to distinguish between resale and retail points, but it might not be in their best interest to do so whether or not they do in other systems.  The fact that they operate other systems with that characteristic that are eligible for some degree of interoperability, though it is mostly manual right now, is really a red herring in the consideration of whether they should implement it in this one.


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## Braindead

I think you’re exactly right. 
When you start looking at all the variables that are involved with resale points in a VIP account.
The only way to do it would be separate accounts for resale & developer status points, I don’t see that happenig.
I think you’ll see changes on GCs before that happens. There will be fewer free ones & the ones purchased will be higher.
Maybe put a cap of maybe 10mil points per membership number. Maybe a cap on GCs 

Wyndham will use other methods to stop cheap rentals before they change the way resale points work in a VIP account.
Why would those of us that bought resale first go buy from Wyndham if they open the second account?? I for one wouldn’t of, I think Wyndham liked us come buying converting us from a resale buyer only account.
Does Wyndham want to lose future sales like ours? I don’t think so!


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## dgalati

Braindead said:


> I think you’re exactly right.
> When you start looking at all the variables that are involved with resale points in a VIP account.
> The only way to do it would be separate accounts for resale & developer status points, I don’t see that happenig.
> I think you’ll see changes on GCs before that happens. There will be fewer free ones & the ones purchased will be higher.
> Maybe put a cap of maybe 10mil points per membership number. Maybe a cap on GCs
> 
> Wyndham will use other methods to stop cheap rentals before they change the way resale points work in a VIP account.
> Why would those of us that bought resale first go buy from Wyndham if they open the second account?? I for one wouldn’t of, I think Wyndham liked us come buying converting us from a resale buyer only account.
> Does Wyndham want to lose future sales like ours? I don’t think so!


Are you suggesting to Wyndham ways to cut VIP benefits with reducing of GC's? LOL!  What other methods other then limiting GC's could you suggest to Wyndham that will reduce VIP benefits? The use of resale points with VIP benefits is the reason for the cheap rentals. Sales has used this sales tactic "renting points in the 50% discount window" as away to pay maintenance fees. The Wyndham math of paying maintenance fees has helped sales to sell more points then one can use but also created the problem of cheap rentals.


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## Sandi Bo

dgalati said:


> Are you suggesting to Wyndham ways to cut VIP benefits with reducing of GC's? LOL!  What other methods other then limiting GC's could you suggest to Wyndham that will reduce VIP benefits? The use of resale points with VIP benefits is the reason for the cheap rentals. Sales has used this sales tactic "renting points in the 50% discount window" as away to pay maintenance fees. The Wyndham math of paying maintenance fees has helped sales to sell more points then one can use but also created the problem of cheap rentals.


I have to disagree. People figuring out ways to strip accounts, or use points and unload the contracts provides cheap rentals.  The red flag is seeing rentals far below maintenance fees.   Wyndham is discounting reservations in October for times that sell out months in advance - that will provide cheaper rentals and VIP benefits don't come into play on those.  You really think cheap rentals is a big target for Wyndham these days?  I do not.


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## Braindead

dgalati said:


> The use of resale points with VIP benefits is the reason for the cheap rentals. Sales has used this sales tactic "renting points in the 50% discount window" as away to pay maintenance fees. The Wyndham math of paying maintenance fees has helped sales to sell more points then one can use but also created the problem of cheap rentals.


I must think Wyndham decision makers understand their options a hell of a lot more than you do. I think they fully understand GCs & they’ve been discussed so I’m not revealing any big secret just like I posted Wyndham knows full well how resale points work in a VIP account.

I agree with you on the sales tactic of “renting points in the 50% discount window” sales can still use that sales tactics.
Sales can still tout the “Wyndham Math” as you put it.

Sandi Bo is a seasoned veteran owner & can’t get the proper amount of GCs. That’s what has my attention!!

I’m a VIP pointing out that Wyndham has other options than 2 accounts IF they decide resale points in a VIP account is a problem & is the cause of too many cheap rentals to be available

You’re not a VIP only wanting Wyndham to take away VIP benefits & trying to figure out ways to get free points by stripping contracts.
You’ve posted that Wyndham has told you that you will not be able to get the  stripped free points next year.
Sounds like Wyndham has decided your stripping method is a PROBLEM & is putting a stop to it!!


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## Braindead

I also agree with Sandi Bo that cheap rentals aren’t a big target today or Wyndham would make changes now & put out a Directory Supplement


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## Jan M.

Sandi Bo said:


> I have to disagree. People figuring out ways to strip accounts, or use points and unload the contracts provides cheap rentals.  The red flag is seeing rentals far below maintenance fees.   Wyndham is discounting reservations in October for times that sell out months in advance - that will provide cheaper rentals and VIP benefits don't come into play on those.  You really think cheap rentals is a big target for Wyndham these days?  I do not.




I am still trying to figure out why Wyndham is discounting reservations for everyone at Bonnet Creek and clear into the Fall. It makes no sense that they would discount Bonnet Creek like that because it is the one resort that never has low occupancy issues. What makes even less sense is that Bonnet Creek is the most highly rented resort. You would think Wyndham is actively trying to encourage renting and worse a glut of cheap rentals. Will they then use the out of control renting to justify making changes that once again won't just impact VIP/Privileges owners but every Wyndham owner? When Wyndham does stuff like this it is well thought out to serve their purposes, often on a number of levels. So what's the catch?

Catch:  noun, a hidden problem or disadvantage in an apparently ideal situation.


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## SNA27

Wyndham data structure, with MEMBER as central to the data schema, was flawed from the start, imo. I don't understand why they didn't correctly start off with the concept of accounts just like a bank or stock brokerage. It's easier and much more elegant to specify rules for each type of account. They can accord privileges at the Account level and some more aggregate privileges at the Member level just like BoA does with its Preferred Rewards program. I don't know why Wyndham IT ignored 'best practices' well known in many industries. If I can see it without the benefit looking at their DB specs, I am sure there are people in Wyndham IT who see it too.
It's historical baggage or bad foundation but nobody there seems to be willing to confront it head-on. Or, that's exactly what they are planning to do. Why else would they spend millions of dollars? Spending more money on Voyager frontend without fixing the structural flaws in the backend will cost them in the long run. 
Let's see if I am right and the smart people at Wyndham IT boldly go where they had been reluctant to go before.


----------



## SNA27

A quick way to do this to assign MEMBER number 1000 with resale 2 accounts 1000-D and 1000-R holding developer and resale deed respectively. But that would be a shortcut to solving *yesterday's* problems. I would think bigger and anticipate *tomorrow's* problems and come up with a comprehensive solution. I would think in terms of bringing Wordmark, Shell, etc. under one IT umbrella. So, customers can have any number of accounts each with its own rules. It would make online reservations across clubs so much easier.
We can dream, can't we? Hello Wyndham IT, you can do it. Go BIG or Go home!


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## Braindead

Your bank analogy doesn’t work for the resale points in a VIP account.
With banks you can freely move your money from one account to another to get the best benefit.
A bank will not lose your business if you have 3 or 4 accounts receiving different benefits such as interest rates.

If VIPs with a resale account could move points freely between the 2 accounts it would defeat the purpose of having 2 accounts.
Wyndham will lose sales if they put certain types of points in separate accounts & the Owner can’t move the points[$$] freely in the different accounts.
Wyndham uses point allocations instead of separate accounts. It’s not perfect & implicating a VIP allocation has too many variables that may not make it feasible.
I can’t imagine separate accounts instead of the current point allocations.
Example you’d have owners with separate accounts for :
Every Resort you own at
CWA
An owner might own at 3 or 4 Outrigger Resorts that need separated.
PR could be owned at a resort that you also own Select points at
You could own converted weeks at the same resort you own UDI points at.

Now split resale from direct purchases you’ve just doubled the above accounts & I’m sure I  didn’t cover some other types of ownership
A true nightmare that will NEVER happen. Yes I’ll say never


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## SNA27

By definition, analogy refers to correspondence or partial similarity and does not imply congruity. With analogies, you have to have an open mind to see how it applies and not indulge in a 'reductio ad absurdum' argument citing dissimilarities to discredit the analogy.

I can easily counter your _*presumption*_ that you will automatically be able to move points across accounts just like in a bank. I have IRA and ROTH-IRA accounts and I cannot move money freely across those accounts.

With Chase, I have multiple credit card accounts. The only thing I can move between those accounts is the credit limit. You can have a consumer and/or pro account with Home Depot. You can have a buyer and seller accounts eBay, Amazon,  et al.

I am sure there would be problems but they are not unsolvable. One could choose to think of a thousand problems to argue against an idea as undoable or strive to find one solution that makes it a reality. I prefer the latter approach. In my experience, I have found it to yield successful results.


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## Jan M.

SNA27 said:


> Wyndham data structure, with MEMBER as central to the data schema, was flawed from the start, imo. I don't understand why they didn't correctly start off with the concept of accounts just like a bank or stock brokerage. It's easier and much more elegant to specify rules for each type of account. They can accord privileges at the Account level and some more aggregate privileges at the Member level just like BoA does with its Preferred Rewards program. I don't know why Wyndham IT ignored 'best practices' well known in many industries. If I can see it without the benefit looking at their DB specs, I am sure there are people in Wyndham IT who see it too.
> It's historical baggage or bad foundation but nobody there seems to be willing to confront it head-on. Or, that's exactly what they are planning to do. Why else would they spend millions of dollars? Spending more money on Voyager frontend without fixing the structural flaws in the backend will cost them in the long run.
> Let's see if I am right and the smart people at Wyndham IT boldly go where they had been reluctant to go before.



In many of our dreams IT would  be given all the information they need, sufficient interaction with actual owners to see how to make things work the best way possible, and the higher ups would listen to them.

The old adage follow the money usually applies. Ron P. once told me that it wasn't done that way to start with because of the number of people worked at various levels with Fairfield then Wyndham who were in a position to benefit from it and did. Many of us are well aware that pretty much anyone in Wyndham can look at our accounts and easily tell what we purchased developer and what was resale from the way they are number coded.

Sorry everyone but I'm doing it again with giving him background information. Back from when Voyager went live to now the topic of the website has seen a tremendous amount of discussion. With people who have extensive IT and web design backgrounds weighing in. The PTB, Powers That Be, in Wyndham didn't understand what IT was telling them and weren't willing to allocate the money for IT to do what needed done. Their sole answer has been well just fix it, like it's that easy. They didn't or refused to understand that anything that IT does is putting lipstick on a pig. You may not know this but the old system still exists alongside Voyager and Wyndham still actively uses it because the new system can't do some of the things the old one did.

Our resident experts have said that Wyndham didn't or wouldn't understand that a system that has had as many patches and fixes as this one has is fraught with never ending problem. I remember posting that after two years of our account being fixed an old problem had resurfaced. Someone explained why this happens. After Voyager came online we were one of the many owners who were unable to access our accounts and it took months to get all the issues resolved. In our case it took two months. I got weekly phone calls with them having me follow their instructions to test what was working in our account as it should and what still needed fixed. One of the issues I remember the most was the reservation that no one could get to cancel. A month after the check in date passed it was still showing as a current reservation. If I remember correctly Wyndham gave us a one time point award for our inconvenience and patience during those two months all the issues were being fixed. To this day a couple of times a year one of the issues will reoccur. I will randomly have a reservation disappear and when that happens there will be at least one other reservation showing twice. It will stay that way for a few weeks and then everything will be okay again.

A huge problem is that the people who designed the current website were dealing with too many of the executive level decision makers listening to too much sales/marketing input and concerns. Clearly neither they nor the IT people responsible for design of the new website had a good or clear concept of needs and wants of the owners who actually use the website. The decision makers saw the pretty pictures on the opening page and were sold. The not so funny part is that those pictures and having to scroll down to get past them has been one of the things that irritated owners a lot.

One of the biggest touted benefits to VIP owners was supposed to be that they could request specific unit numbers if that unit was available. But the epic fail is that they never gave those owners the necessary information to be able to do that. In the resort information there should have been layouts of the resorts with the unit numbers and types of those units. Some of us have those charts for some resorts that we got from the salespeople so clearly in some cases they already exist and it wouldn't have been that hard to do.

At the next two owners meetings Wyndham had their people, some of them IT people I hope, sitting down with owners to have them explain what they wanted and needed the website to do and how the current website failed to meet those wants and needs. That made it very clear to even us non experts how severely handicapped the designers had been with not knowing what they needed to know when they designed the website. We also learned from our resident experts how often IT is forced to tweak things to better suit in this case sales and marketing. How they are rarely listened to when the advise the PTB that certain things won't work.

I was very unimpressed with the announcement that Wyndham proudly made about how they are investing millions into IT and the website is now 50%? faster. I wouldn't have cared if the website was 50% slower if many of the issues were fixed.


----------



## dgalati

Sandi Bo said:


> I have to disagree. People figuring out ways to strip accounts, or use points and unload the contracts provides cheap rentals.  The red flag is seeing rentals far below maintenance fees.   Wyndham is discounting reservations in October for times that sell out months in advance - that will provide cheaper rentals and VIP benefits don't come into play on those.  You really think cheap rentals is a big target for Wyndham these days?  I do not.


No I do not think that rentals are a big target for Wyndham. I was repling to the comment 


Jan M. said:


> I am still trying to figure out why Wyndham is discounting reservations for everyone at Bonnet Creek and clear into the Fall. It makes no sense that they would discount Bonnet Creek like that because it is the one resort that never has low occupancy issues. What makes even less sense is that Bonnet Creek is the most highly rented resort. You would think Wyndham is actively trying to encourage renting and worse a glut of cheap rentals. Will they then use the out of control renting to justify making changes that once again won't just impact VIP/Privileges owners but every Wyndham owner? When Wyndham does stuff like this it is well thought out to serve their purposes, often on a number of levels. So what's the catch?
> 
> Catch:  noun, a hidden problem or disadvantage in an apparently ideal situation.


I have to agree with you on this statement. Wyndham does stuff like this to serve their own purposes 100% of the time.


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> I must think Wyndham decision makers understand their options a hell of a lot more than you do. I think they fully understand GCs & they’ve been discussed so I’m not revealing any big secret just like I posted Wyndham knows full well how resale points work in a VIP account.
> 
> I agree with you on the sales tactic of “renting points in the 50% discount window” sales can still use that sales tactics.
> Sales can still tout the “Wyndham Math” as you put it.
> 
> Sandi Bo is a seasoned veteran owner & can’t get the proper amount of GCs. That’s what has my attention!!
> 
> I’m a VIP pointing out that Wyndham has other options than 2 accounts IF they decide resale points in a VIP account is a problem & is the cause of too many cheap rentals to be available
> 
> You’re not a VIP only wanting Wyndham to take away VIP benefits & trying to figure out ways to get free points by stripping contracts.
> You’ve posted that Wyndham has told you that you will not be able to get the  stripped free points next year.
> Sounds like Wyndham has decided your stripping method is a PROBLEM & is putting a stop to it!!


The stripping of contracts is not allowed and contracts are not transferred with future use year points that have been used unless the $12/1000 is paid. Wyndham has tried to stop the trading of contracts to eliminate the competition to Ovations or when they do buy contracts third party. As Jan stated "When Wyndham does stuff like this it is well thought out to serve their purposes, often on a number of levels". Wyndham does not care if current use year points have been used. The negative balance was also to stop the trading of contracts and to help Ovations take back more deeds to feed their sales machine.


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## SNA27

Let me reiterate, Voyage or the reservation website is merely a window into the backend. It is limited to providing availability information and taking reservations that are sent to the backend for execution.  They could not have spent millions on that frontend. If they did, they made a poor investment. My guess is a lot of things had to be done on the backend to accommodate the frontend. But they don't seem to have done a thorough job. Even this simple frontend window is poorly organized with information all over the place and unsearchable. The omission of a dashboard is inexcusable. Instead, they put up silly pictures. Lipstick on a pig is an apt description. It's still a pig that pretends to fly!


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> Let me reiterate, Voyage or the reservation website is merely a window into the backend. It is limited to providing availability information and taking reservations that are sent to the backend for execution.  They could not have spent millions on that frontend. If they did, they made a poor investment. My guess is a lot of things had to be done on the backend to accommodate the frontend. But they don't seem to have done a thorough job. Even this simple frontend window is poorly organized with information all over the place and unsearchable. The omission of a dashboard is inexcusable. Instead, they put up silly pictures. Lipstick on a pig is an apt description. It's still a pig that pretends to fly!


The most successful companies today have the easiest online ordering websites. Amazon is where they are today because  of the online ordering ease of use. I like to compare Mcmaster Carr to Grainger. One is very user friendly and prompts you to your next move. The other makes you want to pull your hair out. No reason why Wyndham has not invested the time and money into creating a 1st class online experience for all owners.


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## Jan M.

dgalati said:


> No reason why Wyndham has not invested the time and money into creating a 1st class online experience for all owners.




I don't agree with this part of what you said. Wyndham *has* invested a ridiculous amount of time and money. Unfortunately it was on a very subpar product. Given what you've frequently posted doesn't this strike you as very ironic? Here we have a company that actively endorses and supports their employees in convincing people in some cases to make very unwise or ill considered purchases given those peoples circumstances. That same company spends countless hours and millions of dollars on a website that from what we've learned from our resident IT and web design experts Wyndham had to have been repeatedly advised by likely a number of IT experts that what they had  was a big, smelly pile of doo-doo. Some of our resident experts posted that they have had experience with being asked to take on jobs or consult in cases like this and won't even consider it. Doesn't it seem like karmic justice that Wyndham had their own equivalent of TUG and they wouldn't listen or learn?


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## dgalati

Jan M. said:


> I don't agree with this part of what you said. Wyndham *has* invested a ridiculous amount of time and money. Unfortunately it was on a very subpar product. Given what you've frequently posted doesn't this strike you as very ironic? Here we have a company that actively endorses and supports their employees in convincing people in some cases to make very unwise of ill considered purchases given those peoples circumstances. That same company spends countless hours and millions of dollars on a website that from what we've learned from our resident IT and web design experts they had to have been repeatedly advised was a big, smelly pile of doo-doo by likely a number of IT experts. Some of our resident experts posted that they have had experience with being asked to take on jobs or consult in cases like this and won't even consider it. Doesn't it seem like karmic justice that Wyndham had their own equivalent of TUG and they refused to listen or learn?


Thats my point the updated website is horrible. Not much better the the old one and is not very user friendly. The money spent to fix up a used car exceeds the cost of a new one. Problem is its still a used car with little value and is a maintenance nightmare.


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## HitchHiker71

SNA27 said:


> Let me reiterate, Voyage or the reservation website is merely a window into the backend. It is limited to providing availability information and taking reservations that are sent to the backend for execution. They could not have spent millions on that frontend. If they did, they made a poor investment. My guess is a lot of things had to be done on the backend to accommodate the frontend. But they don't seem to have done a thorough job. Even this simple frontend window is poorly organized with information all over the place and unsearchable. The omission of a dashboard is inexcusable. Instead, they put up silly pictures. Lipstick on a pig is an apt description. It's still a pig that pretends to fly!



There is not a single back end - and that is why the system does not function well. Wyndham Destinations is a conglomeration of various timeshare acquisitions over time. Many of the core reservation systems that manage the Wyndham owned resorts (not including Worldmark, SVC, etc, which are entirely disparate systems AFAIK), remain disparate. In other words that are many different disparate databases. Voyager consists of two primary components - a front end website and a middleware system that interfaces with the various reservation systems at the resorts via the middleware. There is no central data warehouse either. At least this is my understanding based upon someone I know who used to work in IT at Wyndham.

There is yet another major IT project, which was discussed briefly at the owners meeting - it may have been called Project Holiday - that has funding to attempt to replace Voyager - and this system is tied to Privileges at least from what little I’ve been able to determine. This project was initially focused on the clubwyndham.com website - which you can already access and switch to if you wish - even though it’s not finalized just yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SNA27

There are always multiple databases and multiple systems in any large company addressing different aspects of the business. I am certain their accounting systems (AR,AP,PO, FA, GL, etc) are on a completely different system. Perhaps the Oracle ERP suite.

If you're saying reservation system is not centralized in the backend but distributed with each resort managing its own reservations and availability of inventory, I can visualize that. The Voyager's reservation backend is simply a broker which communicates with the individual resort reservation systems. In fact, that's how Expedia, Orbitz, Kayak, et al. operate, A broker sending and receiving messages from various reservation systems and other brokers.

But I am talking about TS operations, their core business which requires MEMBERSHIP management and handles VIP benefit rules, Points award and usage. This has to be on a central database for Wyndham Destinations. I am sure there's a separate one for Worldmark etc.  This is where TS structural issues must be addressed. This is where separate resale, retail accounts can be established. And, this is where I am suggesting they can take a comprehensive approach to consolidate various Clubs under a single IT umbrella. Anyway, all this is just my brainstorming without the benefit of a peek into their systems.

Btw, do you have access to a systems diagram of the entire TS management system and its interaction with Voyager and Voyager's backend?That would be great to see.


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## SNA27

Here's one example of a resort management system. I would like to see a diagram like this for Wyndham. Extra Holidays, Expedia, Orbitz, Booking.com and others all have API interfaces with Wyndham. You can see that in Google maps. 









						Reservations Overview - Resort Data Processing
					






					www.resortdata.com


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## Braindead

SNA27 said:


> I can easily counter your _*presumption*_ that you will automatically be able to move points across accounts just like in a bank.


Then there’s no reason to have 2 Wyndham accounts, I’m lost on what good it would do to separate resale points in a separate account


----------



## Braindead

SNA27 said:


> I have IRA and ROTH-IRA accounts and I cannot move money freely across those accounts.
> 
> With Chase, I have multiple credit card accounts. The only thing I can move between those accounts is the credit limit.


You can take funds out of an IRA, you don’t want to due to tax penalties. You can put the funds into a savings or checking account & use them to pay on a credit card.
Credit cards can pay another credit card balance. You can get a cash advance putting the funds in savings or checking account or make a contribution to your IRA. I will not go in to savings or checking accounts as we all know you can use those funds for anything including making IRA contributions.

If you have 2 Wyndham membership numbers absolutely nothing can transfer between those accounts outside of transferring a contract.
Again I’m lost on where your coming from. It’s comparing apples to oranges in my opinion


----------



## SNA27

Braindead said:


> Then there’s no reason to have 2 Wyndham accounts, I’m lost on what good it would do to separate resale points in a separate account



So, Wyndham can administer its rules laid out in the directory that resale points are excluded from VIP Benefits.
I have since learned on this forum that such explicit verbiage has been omitted in the latest directory while implicitly preserving the spirit of such verbiage elsewhere. 
I also laid out my 'grandiose' vision of bringing various clubs under one IT umbrella. If I owned Worldmark or Shell or whatever in addition to Wyndham, I would love to be able to reach all of them with a single login under a single membership. I guess you're not ready to buy into my _brave new world_!


----------



## Braindead

dgalati said:


> The stripping of contracts is not allowed and contracts are not transferred with future use year points that have been used unless the $12/1000 is paid. Wyndham has tried to stop the trading of contracts to eliminate the competition to Ovations or when they do buy contracts third party. As Jan stated "When Wyndham does stuff like this it is well thought out to serve their purposes, often on a number of levels". Wyndham does not care if current use year points have been used. The negative balance was also to stop the trading of contracts and to help Ovations take back more deeds to feed their sales machine.


Stripping a contract means using points with no intention of paying the MFs on the points used & you’ve done that. OWN IT
You’ve posted Wyndham has told you that it not be allowed again, so don’t say that Wyndham will allow you to do what you’ve done in the past.


----------



## Braindead

SNA27 said:


> So, Wyndham can administer its rules laid out in the directory that resale points are excluded from VIP Benefits.
> I have since learned on this forum that such explicit verbiage has been omitted in the latest directory while implicitly preserving the spirit of such verbiage elsewhere.
> I also laid out my 'grandiose' vision of bringing various clubs under one IT umbrella. If I owned Worldmark or Shell or whatever in addition to Wyndham, I would love to be able to reach all of them with a single login under a single membership. I guess you're not ready to buy into my _brave new world_!


We’re talking about 2 different items. If all TS systems you outline could be done with one login fine.
But you’ll still only have one Wyndham Destinations account. Back to if you have 2 Wyndham Destinations accounts under the umbrella & you can transfer points at will between the 2 Wyndham Destinations accounts it serves no purpose. You might as well have 1 Wyndham Destinations under the umbrella


----------



## SNA27

Braindead said:


> You can take funds out of an IRA, you don’t want to due to tax penalties. You can put the funds into a savings or checking account & use them to pay on a credit card.
> Credit cards can pay another credit card balance. You can get a cash advance putting the funds in savings or checking account or make a contribution to your IRA. I will not go in to savings or checking accounts as we all know you can use those funds for anything including making IRA contributions.
> 
> If you have 2 Wyndham membership numbers absolutely nothing can transfer between those accounts outside of transferring a contract.
> Again I’m lost on where your coming from. It’s comparing apples to oranges in my opinion



I don't know why you're stuck on TRANSFERs. You will have 2 separate accounts you can view with a single login. I like being able to see all my Chase credit card accounts in a single login, no transfers there. I like having all my accounts show up under a single login in BofA. Transfer between accounts is allowed in that particular context. 
Wyndham could offer benefits based on the aggregate of all accounts at the member level. There are all kinds of possibilities.


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## SNA27

Bottom line. One member - multiple accounts each with its own rules. You will be able to view all your reservations by account or by member. Just as I do with my activity/holdings etc. in my Merril Edge account. No inconvenience whatsoever. Just that your resale account will not get VIP benefits as envisaged by the regulations in the directory. That's all. 
There is no question of transfers. It's not part of the paradigm.


----------



## Braindead

SNA27 said:


> Just that your resale account will not get VIP benefits as envisaged by the regulations in the directory.


Just when I thought everyone was in an agreement on this matter & it was put to bed.
We don’t know if anything is changing on how resale points work or will even be allowed in a VIP account now or in the future.

One could come to conclusion that the Wyndham decision makers have decided that resale points will get VIP benefits in a VIP account.
They just don’t want to advertise it, so they purposely left it out of the directory.


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> Stripping a contract means using points with no intention of paying the MFs on the points used & you’ve done that. OWN IT
> You’ve posted Wyndham has told you that it not be allowed again, so don’t say that Wyndham will allow you to do what you’ve done in the past.


If I am guilty of selling a stripped contract we would also have to agree Wyndham is also selling stripped contracts. It's no different then Wyndham selling a deed in July and not awarding points until Jan 1st of the next year. When  someone buys a developer sold deed after June they have to pay maintenance fees for up to 6 months before they recieve points to use. The key point you have to remember are maintenance fees are paid by the buyer and Mutually agreed to by both parties. Ovations allows the use of current use year points. It is a win for both parties. Wyndham receives a deed for free knowing they have to pay maintenance fees and seller uses current years points for giving the deed back for free.


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## Braindead

It’s called bonus points when Wyndham is the seller, they more than make up for it


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> It’s called bonus points when Wyndham is the seller, they more than make up for it


You threatened to rescind a developer purchase because no points were available until next use year? What did they call it when you received no bonus points? Its has been documented on TUG that many have had this same issue happen to them.  Wyndham does not think of it as a stripped contract as you are implying.These new owners were told it all balances out!! ;/


----------



## Braindead

For the sake of this thread I’m not responding & refer to another Ron P statement.
Wyndham sets the rules in the sandbox & if you don’t want to play by Wyndhams rules get out of the sandbox!!


----------



## dgalati

Braindead said:


> For the sake of this thread I’m not responding & refer to another Ron P statement.
> Wyndham sets the rules in the sandbox & if you don’t want to play by Wyndhams rules get out of the sandbox!!


Your opinion of a stripped contract is not what Wyndham thinks it is. They would not be selling developer contracts without points available if your definition was correct. I agree on Wyndham sets the rules and it is their sandbox. I have played by the rules and there are options available other then getting out of the sandbox.


----------



## SNA27

Braindead said:


> Just when I thought everyone was in an agreement on this matter & it was put to bed.
> We don’t know if anything is changing on how resale points work or will even be allowed in a VIP account now or in the future.
> 
> *One could come to conclusion that the Wyndham decision makers have decided that resale points will get VIP benefits in a VIP account.*
> They just don’t want to advertise it, so they purposely left it out of the directory.



While I am realistic and do not begrudge that VIP Owners with resale get an unpromised windfall due to the obvious deficiencies in Wyndham's design of its TS management system, I am not in agreement that you should get such a windfall. Moreover, agreement on TUGBBS is irrelevant to what Wyndham decides to do in the future. 

The explicit verbiage about the ineligibility of resale points to avail of VIP benefits may have been omitted in the latest directory. But the description of VIP benefits does not explicitly say resale points are eligible for VIP benefits either as you seem to have concluded. 

All I can conclude is that Wyndham's decision-makers have decided to put this issue in limbo to be dealt with in the future, if and when they have the ability to do so!


----------



## SNA27

dgalati said:


> If I am guilty of selling a stripped contract we would also have to agree Wyndham is also selling stripped contracts. It's no different then Wyndham selling a deed in July and not awarding points until Jan 1st of the next year. When  someone buys a developer sold deed after June they have to pay maintenance fees for up to 6 months before they recieve points to use. The key point you have to remember are *maintenance fees are paid by the buyer and Mutually agreed to by both parties*. Ovations allows the use of current use year points. It is a win for both parties. Wyndham receives a deed for free knowing they have to pay maintenance fees and seller uses current years points for giving the deed back for free.



Nope, I never agreed to any such thing in 2016. I didn't even have a clue as to how things worked. It never occurred to me I would start paying MF into an escrow account immediately even though my first use year will start on Jan 1, 2017. The same thing happened with a purchase in July 2018 and recently in July 2019. I only raised the issue in July 2019 at my last (and hopefully FINAL) purchase. That's when the most unsatisfactory answer that 'it all balances out' was offered. My spreadsheet tells me that it doesn't balance out. Especially when our travel happens in July.
I guess it's insignificant if you consider the long term as @chapjim  pointed out on the thread I had started about this very topic.


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> While I am realistic and do not begrudge that VIP Owners with resale get an unpromised windfall due to the obvious deficiencies in Wyndham's design of its TS management system, I am not in agreement that you should get such a windfall. Moreover, agreement on TUGBBS is irrelevant to what Wyndham decides to do in the future.
> 
> The explicit verbiage about the ineligibility of resale points to avail of VIP benefits may have been omitted in the latest directory. But the description of VIP benefits does not explicitly say resale points are eligible for VIP benefits either as you seem to have concluded.
> 
> All I can conclude is that Wyndham's decision-makers have decided to put this issue in limbo to be dealt with in the future, if and when they have the ability to do so!


It can be justified either way to fit ones needs.


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> Nope, I never agreed to any such thing in 2016. I didn't even have a clue as to how things worked. It never occurred to me I would start paying MF into an escrow account immediately even though my first use year will start on Jan 1, 2017. The same thing happened with a purchase in July 2018 and recently in July 2019. I only raised the issue in July 2019 at my last (and hopefully FINAL) purchase. That's when the most unsatisfactory answer that 'it all balances out' was offered. My spreadsheet tells me that it doesn't balance out. Especially when our travel happens in July.
> I guess it's insignificant if you consider the long term as @chapjim  pointed out on the thread I had started about this very topic.


What are your thoughts is Wyndham selling a deed stripped of points or just taking advantage of ones lack of knowledge? When I sell a deed I make it clear current use year points have been used and maintenance fees are the buyers responsibility the day Wyndham transfers to new owner.  Full transparency and disclosure and very similar to the way Ron P. sold his deeds but with all future use year points available.


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## SNA27

I don't care what willing sellers and willing buyers do in a transparent transaction with full disclosure.
I don't like Wyndham charging me MF before the start of my use-year. I wouldn't have minded paying retroactive MF on purchases I made in February when I was awarded points for the current year. Or even if they pro-rated points based on the start month.
I don't like Ovation buying stripped contracts only because it can lead to all kinds of corruption without proper controls and oversight. Ovation employee has no skin in the game and has all kinds of opportunities for corruption.
If you've ever worked in a manufacturing company, you would be aware of all kinds of sops and enticements vendors offer to the Purchasing manager including trips to Hawaii in extreme cases. They were always bringing gifts, souvenirs, and widgets. I have seen it and often wondered about this insidious form of kickback. Vendors will simply justify it as a marketing tool. The purchasing manager will claim that he didn't solicit it and his decisions on sourcing are not influenced by such sops. He will freely hand out these gifts to fellow managers to buy their acquiescence. If I remember right, Ron Parise had an insider who was a facilitator. At one non-profit I was consulting for, the marketing manager had given a lucrative contract to a 'relative'. These kinds of dubious transactions go on everywhere. Not just in Government. My son was recently commenting that there must be big money in supplying coffee, toiletries, etc. to all the Wyndham resorts. I was telling him it must be high-volume, low-margin business. But who knows? One hand washes the other!


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## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> I don't care what willing sellers and willing buyers do in a transparent transaction with full disclosure.
> I don't like Wyndham charging me MF before the start of my use-year. I wouldn't have minded paying retroactive MF on purchases I made in February when I was awarded points for the current year. Or even if they pro-rated points based on the start month.
> I don't like Ovation buying stripped contracts only because it can lead to all kinds of corruption without proper controls and oversight. Ovation employee has no skin in the game and has all kinds of opportunities for corruption.
> If you've ever worked in a manufacturing company, you would be aware of all kinds of sops and enticements vendors offer to the Purchasing manager including trips to Hawaii in extreme cases. They were always bringing gifts, souvenirs, and widgets. I have seen it and often wondered about this insidious form of kickback. Vendors will simply justify it as a marketing tool. The purchasing manager will claim that he didn't solicit it and his decisions on sourcing are not influenced by such sops. He will freely hand out these gifts to fellow managers to buy their acquiescence. If I remember right, Ron Parise had an insider who was a facilitator. At one non-profit I was consulting for, the marketing manager had given a lucrative contract to a 'relative'. These kinds of dubious transactions go on everywhere. Not just in Government. My son was recently commenting that there must be big money in supplying coffee, toiletries, etc. to all the Wyndham resorts. I was telling him it must be high-volume, low-margin business. But who knows? One hand washes the other!


Below is a good read from the Worldmark Forum. Enjoy the thread it will give you another prospective of many topics on this Wyndham thread .








						On Megarenters - and why hasn't Worldmark fixed this...
					

I purchased Worldmark recently, and from the short experience I have had with the online system, it's pretty clear that whatever Worldmark has done with housekeeping fees and guest certificate fees - it may have impacted the bottom line of megarenters, but they are just as active now (concluded...




					tugbbs.com


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## CCdad

SNA27 said:


> I don't care what willing sellers and willing buyers do in a transparent transaction with full disclosure.
> I don't like Wyndham charging me MF before the start of my use-year. I wouldn't have minded paying retroactive MF on purchases I made in February when I was awarded points for the current year. Or even if they pro-rated points based on the start month.
> I don't like Ovation buying stripped contracts only because it can lead to all kinds of corruption without proper controls and oversight. Ovation employee has no skin in the game and has all kinds of opportunities for corruption.
> If you've ever worked in a manufacturing company, you would be aware of all kinds of sops and enticements vendors offer to the Purchasing manager including trips to Hawaii in extreme cases. They were always bringing gifts, souvenirs, and widgets. I have seen it and often wondered about this insidious form of kickback. Vendors will simply justify it as a marketing tool. The purchasing manager will claim that he didn't solicit it and his decisions on sourcing are not influenced by such sops. He will freely hand out these gifts to fellow managers to buy their acquiescence. If I remember right, Ron Parise had an insider who was a facilitator. At one non-profit I was consulting for, the marketing manager had given a lucrative contract to a 'relative'. These kinds of dubious transactions go on everywhere. Not just in Government. My son was recently commenting that there must be big money in supplying coffee, toiletries, etc. to all the Wyndham resorts. I was telling him it must be high-volume, low-margin business. But who knows? One hand washes the other!




With the great mega points owner freeze in August 2016 and even since, I don’t know how WD passes an external IT audit. Their IT controls should allow the auditors to reconcile total points, HK credits, VIP benefits, and GCs activity year over year, broken down by transaction categories. So that stat samples of each transaction category can be audited and assessed for weaknesses. But that would require an audit team that truly understands the TS industry and WD in particular; turnover is common and knowledge retention in the audit work papers can be sketchy at best. 

I don’t think all the points generations issues of 2016 have been eliminated with Voyager. Different issues may crop up after their frequent overnight upgrades. WD doesn’t want to publicize its own lack of IT controls to their external auditors.

With respect to WD passing on discounts or marking up their volume discounted supplies, IT services and furnishings for renovations; I doubt that the HOAs are even looking into that. Another WD profit generation opportunity.

I know that one TS vendor paid itself a 15% management fee in 2018 for “managing” the resort repairs from the recent storm damage (in a self assessment to existing owners). And no owners challenged them; but that should have been part of their management contract for that resort.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jan M.

CCdad said:


> With the great mega points owner freeze in August 2016 and even since, I don’t know how WD passes an external IT audit. Their IT controls should allow the auditors to reconcile total points, HK credits, VIP benefits, and GCs activity year over year, broken down by transaction categories. So that stat samples of each transaction category can be audited and assessed for weaknesses. But that would require an audit team that truly understands the TS industry and WD in particular; turnover is common and knowledge retention in the audit work papers can be sketchy at best.
> 
> I don’t think all the points generations issues of 2016 have been eliminated with Voyager. Different issues may crop up after their frequent overnight upgrades. WD doesn’t want to publicize its own lack of IT controls to their external auditors.
> 
> With respect to WD passing on discounts or marking up their volume discounted supplies, IT services and furnishings for renovations; I doubt that the HOAs are even looking into that. Another WD profit generation opportunity.
> 
> I know that one TS vendor paid itself a 15% management fee in 2018 for “managing” the resort repairs from the recent storm damage (in a self assessment to existing owners). And no owners challenged them; but that should have been part of their management contract for that resort.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



My husband was president of our hoa where we live and learned a lot more than he previously new about audits during his years on our board. There was something that had some homeowners demanding an audit. He and the other board members were all set to agree to having an audit done. I had to explain to him that the type of audit they wanted was not the same kind of audit that is done at the end of each year and presented with the next years budget. What they wanted was what I called in my explanation to him an in depth or a forensic audit, although neither is probably the correct term. The type of audit the homeowners wanted is very expensive to have done as the board soon found out. Thankfully they hadn't agreed to anything before my husband talked to me about what was going on. I had him get me the relevant seven years worth of figures from the treasurer and spent a considerable amount of time working them up for the board to understand and be able to explain what was specifically being questioned and determine the needed action.

All the normal hoa or timeshare audit shows is that the numbers add up on what the auditor is given to go over. It is a very cursory audit. It doesn't look at the accuracy or legitimacy in how those numbers are labelled, determined, etc. My old boss loved to say that numbers don't lie but liars know how to use numbers. There is an old joke about the accountants being interviewed for a job. They are all asked what several numbers add up to. The last one, the one who gets the job, closes the door and whispers what do you want them to add up to?

I see you saying pretty much the same thing for an IT audit.

Edited. I want to explain that I was trying to put it in a way that more of us can understand a little better because we don't have the IT background.


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## CCdad

@Jan M LOL, yes indeed. 

For the most part my post is about the audit of WD ... which because it’s a publicly traded company, should certainly involve more than just cursory reviews.

Having dealt with them throughout my career, they’re persistent Big5 firms and at times a royal PITA. Requesting screen shots for the process to generate a system report from a 3rd party vendor’s software.

As to the HOA, they tend to summarize their comparative annual budget to fit it onto one page to send to owners. If they don’t detail the extent of the related party transactions with WD, then it leads to more questions. But I doubt the individual HOAs really scrutinize all the WD charges.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ecwinch

I understand your point CCdad  - especially in light of the Sarbanes-Oxley requirements (and CEO sign-off) that publicly traded companies have to go thru. Jan's observation about the HOA audits is accurate, but a significantly higher standard of audit is required for SOX. 

Internal control processes to prevent fraud is usually an area of emphasis. For instance the internal controls on how the mgt side of the house manages account balances for their own account.


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## SNA27

SOX has a higher standard? No, it just has more BS paperwork! What good is paperwork, if people go through it mechanically affixing their signature. Just more paper to CYA! 
Humans are lazy and ingenious, we will find a way to defeat all these nonsense, make-work,  feel-good control procedures! Yes, Epstein's guards cooked their documents! Did he kill himself? Idk!


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## SNA27

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, I worked for and later consulted for a small manufacturing firm in SoCal and I was in charge of their IT. Every year or so, the E&Y audit team wanted to include a page about IT audit. They always sent their junior person to interview me. She was nervous as hell because she had no idea of the subject matter. She just wanted to write her page and get out.
I could have told her COBOL74 stood for Cool Business Language invented in 1974 and the latest and greatest. It's so cool that nothing can go wrong. The whole concept of  IT Audit was complete nonsense! They were not even qualified to do it!

Ok, I didn't actually do that! I thought they were serious and I used to describe the 2 different business systems and the daily and monthly processes involved. She used to furiously write down stuff without even bothering to grasp any of it. Just write a report and be done with it. That was her idea of IT audit. IT audits should be done by IT professionals. Otherwise it's meaningless.


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## CO skier

Eric B said:


> If they were to choose to distinguish between the point sources ...


Simple.  Developer purchased points are treated just like ARP.  Non-developer points do not get VIP benefits, just like "foreign" points do not get ARP benefits at any resort.


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## Eric B

CO skier said:


> Simple.  Developer purchased points are treated just like ARP.  Non-developer points do not get VIP benefits, just like "foreign" points do not get ARP benefits at any resort.



But see RARP and the various exceptions to that idea like Outrigger Club, etc.  My guess is that the implementation isn’t simple and I believe there are a number of account level VIP benefits that would have indeterminate treatment if it were a merely ARP-like treatment.  For example, number of reservation transactions and housekeeping credits.  But you could have read that in my post that the phrase quoted was cherry-picked from....


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## Richelle

SNA27 said:


> Bottom line. One member - multiple accounts each with its own rules. You will be able to view all your reservations by account or by member. Just as I do with my activity/holdings etc. in my Merril Edge account. No inconvenience whatsoever. Just that your resale account will not get VIP benefits as envisaged by the regulations in the directory. That's all.
> There is no question of transfers. It's not part of the paradigm.



Multiple accounts with their own rules? The system is already confusing for owners. What you are suggesting would add a whole other level of complications, that would create more confusion and even more frustration. If you spent more then 10 minutes browsing the Facebook groups, you see many posts about people being confused. This would make it much worse.


----------



## Richelle

SNA27 said:


> Bottom line. One member - multiple accounts each with its own rules. You will be able to view all your reservations by account or by member. Just as I do with my activity/holdings etc. in my Merril Edge account. No inconvenience whatsoever. Just that your resale account will not get VIP benefits as envisaged by the regulations in the directory. That's all.
> There is no question of transfers. It's not part of the paradigm.



Multiple accounts with their own rules? The system is already confusing for owners. What you are suggesting would add a whole other level of complications, that would create more confusion and even more frustration. If you spent more then 10 minutes browsing the Facebook groups, you see many posts about people being confused. This would make it much worse.


----------



## dgalati

Richelle said:


> Multiple accounts with their own rules? The system is already confusing for owners. What you are suggesting would add a whole other level of complications, that would create more confusion and even more frustration. If you spent more then 10 minutes browsing the Facebook groups, you see many posts about people being confused. This would make it much worse.


Sales  would have a field day with the multiple accounts. Imagine  the many ways that sales  could try to sell more points with this added level of confusion. This Sounds very similar to a new program they are launching called Privileges.


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## Braindead

dgalati said:


> Sales  would have a field day with the multiple accounts. Imagine  the many ways that sales  could try to sell more points with this added level of confusion. This Sounds very similar to a new program they are launching called Privileges.





Since when does Privileges create multiple membership accounts??


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## SNA27

I have multiple accounts in BofA, Merril Edge, Chase, et al. I know what each account is for and what governs it. I am not confused that the Checking account doesn't pay interest while other accounts do. I know there are fees associated with each account and my aggregate balance gives me privileges that waive a lot of those fees. I don't use privileges like using foreign ATMs for free. But my son does it all the time and I see fees being charged and credited.
If I had a retail VIP account and a resale account with Wyndham, I will not be confused that reservations made in the retail account accrue VIP benefits but the ones made in the resale account do not. I will be able to see all my reservations in one place for all accounts or a specific account.
Imagine further, that you can see your WM or Shell accounts under the same membership and they follow their own rules wrt to privileges and reservations etc. FANTASTIC!

I understand the fears instilled in members by Wyndham with its track record of poor execution in the past. But just imagine the possibilities of soaring like an eagle (Jonathan Livingston Seagull, if you prefer) without being constrained by those turkeys! Ok, I know I am not being realistic; I am just brainstorming unconstrained by reality! We're all better off when people like Steve Jobs are able to break free from the constraints of turkeys!


----------



## dgalati

SNA27 said:


> I have multiple accounts in BofA, Merril Edge, Chase, et al. I know what each account is for and what governs it. I am not confused that the Checking account doesn't pay interest while other accounts do. I know there are fees associated with each account and my aggregate balance gives me privileges that waive a lot of those fees. I don't use privileges like using foreign ATMs for free. But my son does it all the time and I see fees being charged and credited.
> IF I had a retail VIP account and a resale account with Wyndham, I will not be confused that reservations made in the retail account accrue VIP benefits but the the ones made in the resale account do not. I will be able to see all my reservations in one place for all accounts or a specific account.
> Imagine further, that you can see your WM or Shell accounts under the same membership and they follow their own rules wrt to privileges and reservations etc. FANTASTIC!
> 
> I understand the fears instilled in members by Wyndham with its track record of poor execution in the past. But just imagine the possibilities of soaring like an eagle without being constrained by those turkeys! Ok, I know I am not being realistic; I am just brainstorming unconstrained by reality! We're all better off when people like Steve Jobs are able to break free from the constraints of turkeys!


 Makes sense to me.


----------



## Richelle

SNA27 said:


> I have multiple accounts in BofA, Merril Edge, Chase, et al. I know what each account is for and what governs it. I am not confused that the Checking account doesn't pay interest while other accounts do. I know there are fees associated with each account and my aggregate balance gives me privileges that waive a lot of those fees. I don't use privileges like using foreign ATMs for free. But my son does it all the time and I see fees being charged and credited.
> If I had a retail VIP account and a resale account with Wyndham, I will not be confused that reservations made in the retail account accrue VIP benefits but the the ones made in the resale account do not. I will be able to see all my reservations in one place for all accounts or a specific account.
> Imagine further, that you can see your WM or Shell accounts under the same membership and they follow their own rules wrt to privileges and reservations etc. FANTASTIC!
> 
> I understand the fears instilled in members by Wyndham with its track record of poor execution in the past. But just imagine the possibilities of soaring like an eagle without being constrained by those turkeys! Ok, I know I am not being realistic; I am just brainstorming unconstrained by reality! We're all better off when people like Steve Jobs are able to break free from the constraints of turkeys!



You, me, and a lot of people here on TUG could figure things out just fine. The fact is, only a small portion of ownership is knowledgeable about timeshares. I didn’t take a poll, but if you spend enough time on those Facebook groups, you will see the same questions or frustrations over and over. You will see there are plenty of people that are confused. These are the most common comments and questions. 

“I’m really confused” 
“I’m lost”. 
“Why is there no availability a year out?” (People just don’t understand the booking windows)
“How do I use my points to pay for airfare/cruises/Disney tickets/rental cars/maintenance fees/etc”. 
“What are housekeeping credits” 
“why did I get charged $19 for this reservation?”
“What’s the difference between CWA and deeded?”
“What is blue thread?”
“I went to an owner update to get answers to my questions, and they told me (enter various sales tactics here)”
“When can I borrow points?”
“How can I use my points for hotel stays”
“How do I move my points to next year? They expire tomorrow”
“How do I rent points/reservations?”
“Will Wyndham buy my timeshare back”?
“How do I get out of my loan?”
“How do I get out of my timeshare”
“The timeshare exit company said my children will be stuck with this after I die!”
“Why can I not book WorldMark resorts?”
“How do I book RCI?”
“Where can I buy points resale?”
“What’s the difference between resale and retail?”
“Did I do the right thing?” (My personal favorite)
“What are the benefits of VIP?”
“What is Club Pass?”
“How do I use my points to pay for maintenance fees?”
“How many points is a cruise?”
“How do I sell my timeshare?”


Over, and Over, and Over. It’s not just a few “turkeys”. Just because you or I have figured it out, doesn’t mean it’s easy. The difference between banking and timeshares, is the average person knows at least a bit about checking accounts, credits cards, 401k, etc. They’ve known about money since they were a kid. The majority of these poor souls know next to nothing about timeshares. The smart ones take the time to figure it out. The even smarter ones rescinded, so they had time to figure out what they want. Unfortunately, plenty are not as smart, and believes a commissioned sales person. Don’t base your opinion on your experiences, and what you see people write here, alone. There are more people on the Facebook groups, because they know of Facebook. You’ll see more opinions and experiences there, then you would here. Most of the people here are familiar with their timeshare, so it’s easy to think that only a few don’t know how to use it. If it were easy to figure out, half the sales tactics the sales people use wouldn’t work. Multiple accounts with different rules would create mass confusion. As @dgalati said, that would give the sales people even more opportunities to con people into buying points they don’t need. 

Im not saying this is a reason they shouldn’t take away VIP benefits from resale. I’m not saying they should take away benefits either. What I’m saying is, multiple accounts with different rules is a bad idea, and the only people who will benefit, will be the sales people.


----------



## SNA27

You can't deny or fight the Bell curve. Accept it as reality. 
A society where 20% achievers are looked upon and allowed by the 80% to lead will succeed. America is a shining example. 
Societies where the 80% mediocre lead while despising and suffocating the 20% achievers will fail miserably! Look at the Socialist countries.
We must stop pandering. Those who don't understand the rules want to understand. They don't want you to abolish the rules or dumb it down. That seems to be the current political fad.
LCD (Lowest Common Denominator) is a nice arithmetic construct, but that's not a great social construct. Very destructive, imo.


----------



## SNA27

Richelle said:


> You, me, and a lot of people here on TUG could figure things out just fine. The fact is, only a small portion of ownership is knowledgeable about timeshares. I didn’t take a poll, but if you spend enough time on those Facebook groups, you will see the same questions or frustrations over and over. You will see there are plenty of people that are confused. These are the most common comments and questions.
> 
> “I’m really confused”
> “I’m lost”.
> “Why is there no availability a year out?” (People just don’t understand the booking windows)
> “How do I use my points to pay for airfare/cruises/Disney tickets/rental cars/maintenance fees/etc”.
> “What are housekeeping credits”
> “why did I get charged $19 for this reservation?”
> “What’s the difference between CWA and deeded?”
> “What is blue thread?”
> “I went to an owner update to get answers to my questions, and they told me (enter various sales tactics here)”
> “When can I borrow points?”
> “How can I use my points for hotel stays”
> “How do I move my points to next year? They expire tomorrow”
> “How do I rent points/reservations?”
> “Will Wyndham buy my timeshare back”?
> “How do I get out of my loan?”
> “How do I get out of my timeshare”
> “The timeshare exit company said my children will be stuck with this after I die!”
> “Why can I not book WorldMark resorts?”
> “How do I book RCI?”
> “Where can I buy points resale?”
> “What’s the difference between resale and retail?”
> “Did I do the right thing?” (My personal favorite)
> “What are the benefits of VIP?”
> “What is Club Pass?”
> “How do I use my points to pay for maintenance fees?”
> “How many points is a cruise?”
> “How do I sell my timeshare?”
> 
> 
> Over, and Over, and Over. It’s not just a few “turkeys”. Just because you or I have figured it out, doesn’t mean it’s easy. The difference between banking and timeshares, is the average person knows at least a bit about checking accounts, credits cards, 401k, etc. They’ve known about money since they were a kid. The majority of these poor souls know next to nothing about timeshares. The smart ones take the time to figure it out. The even smarter ones rescinded, so they had time to figure out what they want. Unfortunately, plenty are not as smart, and believes a commissioned sales person. Don’t base your opinion on your experiences, and what you see people write here, alone. There are more people on the Facebook groups, because they know of Facebook. You’ll see more opinions and experiences there, then you would here. Most of the people here are familiar with their timeshare, so it’s easy to think that only a few don’t know how to use it. If it were easy to figure out, half the sales tactics the sales people use wouldn’t work. Multiple accounts with different rules would create mass confusion. As @dgalati said, that would give the sales people even more opportunities to con people into buying points they don’t need.
> 
> Im not saying this is a reason they shouldn’t take away VIP benefits from resale. I’m not saying they should take away benefits either. What I’m saying is, multiple accounts with different rules is a bad idea, and the only people who will benefit, will be the sales people.



Some of those questions above are easily addressed in FAQ. But, if you're going to ask me 'what's an FAQ and where can I buy it?', I don't know what else would you want me to do? Peel their banana for them? That's a popular idiom where I come from. Guys who're so lazy they want their banana peeled for them! What they need is a swift kick in the rear!


----------



## SNA27

Braindead said:


> View attachment 16297
> Since when does Privileges create multiple membership accounts??



Come on, @Braindead, your post elsewhere was deleted by moderators. You have dredged it up. Not _mensch_!
@dgalati is not your enemy. He has a perspective with which you disagree on this anonymous forum. So do I, on some level. It means diddly-squat!


----------



## Richelle

SNA27 said:


> Some of those questions above are easily addressed in FAQ. But, if you're going to ask me 'what's an FAQ and where can I buy it?', I don't know what else would you want me to do? Peel their banana for them? That's a popular idiom where I come from. Guys who're so lazy they want their banana peeled for them! What they need is a swift kick in the rear!



They don’t need a FAQ. They can search the Facebook group for the answers to the above question. You’re preaching to the choir on that one. Most don’t realize they can search the forums. You tell them about the search feature and multiple people tell you that this is “Wyndham HELPING owners” and that I’m not being helpful. I’m mostly just skipping those posts, unless I see someone giving inaccurate information. 

Just like we should not pander to the 20%, we shouldn’t pander to the even smaller percentage of people who don’t like that resale points get VIP perks. Wyndham left it out of their directory for a reason. If you recall, they made a lot of changes. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Wyndham can and does change the rules whenever they see fit. In this case, they changed the rule. That is no different than them changing other the rules. You’ve made your point that you don’t like resale getting VIP benefits, and without knowing much of what’s behind the wheel of Voyager, have made it a point to tell us Wyndham what they should do. You’re beating a dead horse at this point. You’re not changing any minds. I’m done with this portion of the conversation. When I’m not busy at work, I might join in if the topic changes. In the mean time, I have better things to do, then beat a dead horse. Feel free to do it with anyone who will listen. I won’t interfere.


----------



## Braindead

SNA27 said:


> I have multiple accounts in BofA, Merril Edge, Chase, et al. I know what each account is for and what governs it. I am not confused that the Checking account doesn't pay interest while other accounts do. I know there are fees associated with each account and my aggregate balance gives me privileges that waive a lot of those fees. I don't use privileges like using foreign ATMs for free. But my son does it all the time and I see fees being charged and credited.
> If I had a retail VIP account and a resale account with Wyndham, I will not be confused that reservations made in the retail account accrue VIP benefits but the ones made in the resale account do not. I will be able to see all my reservations in one place for all accounts or a specific account.
> Imagine further, that you can see your WM or Shell accounts under the same membership and they follow their own rules wrt to privileges and reservations etc. FANTASTIC!
> 
> I understand the fears instilled in members by Wyndham with its track record of poor execution in the past. But just imagine the possibilities of soaring like an eagle (Jonathan Livingston Seagull, if you prefer) without being constrained by those turkeys! Ok, I know I am not being realistic; I am just brainstorming unconstrained by reality! We're all better off when people like Steve Jobs are able to break free from the constraints of turkeys!





SNA27 said:


> You can't deny or fight the Bell curve. Accept it as reality.
> A society where 20% achievers are looked upon and allowed by the 80% to lead will succeed. America is a shining example.
> Societies where the 80% mediocre lead while despising and suffocating the 20% achievers will fail miserably! Look at the Socialist countries.
> We must stop pandering. Those who don't understand the rules want to understand. They don't want you to abolish the rules or dumb it down. That seems to be the current political fad.
> LCD (Lowest Common Denominator) is a nice arithmetic construct, but that's not a great social construct. Very destructive, imo.


What is true for society is not true for business.

Your IQ may very well be 3 times higher than mine, google is my friend searching the words you use so I can understand WTH you’re saying.lol
You’ve called me closed minded & out of touch with the new world.
But I’ll attempt one time to demonstrate that our Club Wyndham website is like your bank website.

$$=points
Accounts=contracts
fees for each account= MFs listed for each contract on your Financial page
accounts combined = points allocations
accounts have separate rules= Booking windows-UDI, CWA, Outrigger, Presidential Reserve, Margaritavilles & others
you say “my aggregate balances gives me privileges” =VIP Tiers
summary page= reservations-points available

I think with our Club Wyndham website we are in the new world & the website is NOT a “dumb it down” situation as you put It.
What you want for a website would be like putting 3 or 4 different bank chains with different foreign currencies on one website.
The timeshare companies you want on one website are separate entities, points based[currency] using separate points charts[foreign currency] that has to be exchanged to a different currency for use in a different systems


----------



## HitchHiker71

SNA27 said:


> You can't deny or fight the Bell curve. Accept it as reality.
> A society where 20% achievers are looked upon and allowed by the 80% to lead will succeed. America is a shining example.
> Societies where the 80% mediocre lead while despising and suffocating the 20% achievers will fail miserably! Look at the Socialist countries.
> We must stop pandering. Those who don't understand the rules want to understand. They don't want you to abolish the rules or dumb it down. That seems to be the current political fad.
> LCD (Lowest Common Denominator) is a nice arithmetic construct, but that's not a great social construct. Very destructive, imo.



Where are you sourcing these assumptions from?  The old 80/20 rule really doesn't apply the way you're attempting to apply to it here IMHO.  For the last 15 years I've managed people who perform IT work - and increasingly business strategy as my career has progressed.  Prior to that I was at the keyboard for about ten years.  From a personnel management standpoint, a routinely used standard is the 10/80/10 best practice.  10% of your work force are underperformers, 80% are performers, and 10% are outperformers (your superstars).  You work on managing out the underperformers, preserving the performers, and promoting the superstars.  

How does this apply to the topic at hand?  If we take a step back - we need to recognize that those who are unhappy tend to be the most vocal.  These are the people that find TUG, and find the Facebook groups especially, because on some level they are experiencing pain, for whatever set of reasons.  These people fall into the bottom 10% of timeshare ownership and are the relatively uneducated folks that we often interact with as @Richelle pointed out - especially on the Facebook groups.  The 80% in the middle - most likely don't post on TUG or the Facebook groups, because they are content and have no desire or need to do so.  They understand the system well enough to meet their needs - and have no real complaints - _this 80% is the vast majority of timeshare owners.  _The top 10% may or may not join TUG or the Facebook groups.  Those who want to share their knowledge will join and do exactly that.  Many of the frequent posters here on TUG probably fall into the top 10% - these folks are very knowledgeable and like to share their knowledge and experiences.  If we look at the responses to the ownership poll that SNA27 posted - it all but proves my assertions here when we compare those statistics to the rationalized ownership stats from Wyndham.

All that said, I think what SNA27 is attempting to propose is not necessarily a single member account per se.  He's phrasing it this way, because he's talking at a technical architecture layer.  I would describe it differently - describe the market problem and the proposed solution from a business perspective.  I would describe the ask as an ownership portal from Wyndham Destinations.  From within that "single pane of glass" portal - the user could access any/all Wyndham owned products seamlessly.  There will in fact be multiple member accounts - however the system utilizes single sign-on authentication mechanisms behind the scenes via the portal's master login ID so that whenever you click on your Worldmark vs your Club Wyndham ownership section within the portal - you don't have to authenticate again.  You can also return to your splash portal page from anywhere within the website construct - so that you could easily move back and forth between the various products that you own.  I haven't thought through this proposal in detail, but an ownership portal like this might be useful depending on how it is implemented.  That said, I do openly question the scope of the market problem, as something like this would only be useful for people who own multiple timeshare contracts across CWP, WM, MVC, and SVC, and I don't know the subset of owners who actually have ownership that spans across multiple timeshare entities.  I suspect it's a very low percentage overall, which is probably why it's not worth pursuing a solution like this.  Again, it all comes down to evidence based (metric) decision making IME.


----------



## SNA27

Braindead said:


> What is true for society is not true for business.
> 
> Your IQ may very well be 3 times higher than mine, google is my friend searching the words you use so I can understand WTH you’re saying.lol
> You’ve called me closed minded & out of touch with the new world.
> But I’ll attempt one time to demonstrate that our Club Wyndham website is like your bank website.
> 
> $$=points
> Accounts=contracts
> fees for each account= MFs listed for each contract on your Financial page
> accounts combined = points allocations
> accounts have separate rules= Booking windows-UDI, CWA, Outrigger, Presidential Reserve, Margaritavilles & others
> you say “my aggregate balances gives me privileges” =VIP Tiers
> summary page= reservations-points available
> 
> I think with our Club Wyndham website we are in the new world & the website is NOT a “dumb it down” situation as you put It.
> What you want for a website would be like putting 3 or 4 different bank chains with different foreign currencies on one website.
> The timeshare companies you want on one website are separate entities, points based[currency] using separate points charts[foreign currency] that has to be exchanged to a different currency for use in a different systems



I am so sorry. You must have misunderstood me. I was in no way launching personal attacks. I have already expressed my admiration for your knowing what you're talking about. elsewhere. I wish you had read that and known where I was coming from. I probably should not have used the 80-20 analogy of Socialist countries in this context. While apt in Venezuela, it may be misunderstood in this context. I will try to respond later. I just wanted to apologize first for any misunderstanding.


----------



## SNA27

HitchHiker71 said:


> Where are you sourcing these assumptions from?  The old 80/20 rule really doesn't apply the way you're attempting to apply to it here IMHO.  For the last 15 years I've managed people who perform IT work - and increasingly business strategy as my career has progressed.  Prior to that I was at the keyboard for about ten years.  From a personnel management standpoint, a routinely used standard is the 10/80/10 best practice.  10% of your work force are underperformers, 80% are performers, and 10% are outperformers (your superstars).  You work on managing out the underperformers, preserving the performers, and promoting the superstars.
> 
> How does this apply to the topic at hand?  If we take a step back - we need to recognize that those who are unhappy tend to be the most vocal.  These are the people that find TUG, and find the Facebook groups especially, because on some level they are experiencing pain, for whatever set of reasons.  These people fall into the bottom 10% of timeshare ownership and are the relatively uneducated folks that we often interact with as @Richelle pointed out - especially on the Facebook groups.  The 80% in the middle - most likely don't post on TUG or the Facebook groups, because they are content and have no desire or need to do so.  They understand the system well enough to meet their needs - and have no real complaints - _this 80% is the vast majority of timeshare owners.  _The top 10% may or may not join TUG or the Facebook groups.  Those who want to share their knowledge will join and do exactly that.  Many of the frequent posters here on TUG probably fall into the top 10% - these folks are very knowledgeable and like to share their knowledge and experiences.  If we look at the responses to the ownership poll that SNA27 posted - it all but proves my assertions here when we compare those statistics to the rationalized ownership stats from Wyndham.
> 
> All that said, I think what SNA27 is attempting to propose is not necessarily a single member account per se.  He's phrasing it this way, because he's talking at a technical architecture layer.  I would describe it differently - describe the market problem and the proposed solution from a business perspective.  I would describe the ask as an ownership portal from Wyndham Destinations.  From within that "single pane of glass" portal - the user could access any/all Wyndham owned products seamlessly.  There will in fact be multiple member accounts - however the system utilizes single sign-on authentication mechanisms behind the scenes via the portal's master login ID so that whenever you click on your Worldmark vs your Club Wyndham ownership section within the portal - you don't have to authenticate again.  You can also return to your splash portal page from anywhere within the website construct - so that you could easily move back and forth between the various products that you own.  I haven't thought through this proposal in detail, but an ownership portal like this might be useful depending on how it is implemented.  That said, I do openly question the scope of the market problem, as something like this would only be useful for people who own multiple timeshare contracts across CWP, WM, MVC, and SVC, and I don't know the subset of owners who actually have ownership that spans across multiple timeshare entities.  I suspect it's a very low percentage overall, which is probably why it's not worth pursuing a solution like this.  Again, it all comes down to evidence based (metric) decision making IME.



Damn! Stupid me and my 80-20 analogy! I meant it in the context of America vs. Venezuela. Not in the context of IT, at all. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I will try to respond later.


----------



## SNA27

I was addressing two separate issues and somehow they have gotten conflated by some.
1. Structuring the database to enforce rules wrt resale points and their ineligibility for VIP Benefits.
2. @Richelle's enumeration of the types of complaints posted on Facebook. Some Wyndham customers seem to complain just about anything without taking any responsibility upon themselves.

@Richelle  did not conflate the issues and clearly addressed them in two separate paragraphs.

As to issue 1:
I am purely approaching it from the perspective of a database designer without taking into account marketing and accounting considerations. I have explained my perspective as well as I could on this thread and others.

As to issue 2:
I don't believe the customer is always right. They can be pretty unreasonable and misformed and feel entitled more often than can be justified or tolerated.

For example, @Jan M. mentioned a woman complaining about the studio at St. Thomas resort as being too small. Granted Wyndham doesn't always provide layouts but they do specify the Studio's size as ~500 SqFt. Would she have been able to visualize a space of 500 SqFt with or without the layout? Probably not. Now, what can Wyndham do about such a complaint?
Didn't she know all she had to do was to pull out her wand and cast the spell _Capacious extremis_ and she would have had a 4BR Presidential? Silly Muggles!


----------



## Richelle

SNA27 said:


> I was addressing two separate issues and somehow they have gotten conflated by some.
> 1. Structuring the database to enforce rules wrt resale points and their ineligibility for VIP Benefits.
> 2. @Richelle's enumeration of the types of complaints posted on Facebook. Some Wyndham customers seem to complain just about anything without taking any responsibility upon themselves.
> 
> @Richelle did not conflate the issues and clearly addressed them in two separate paragraphs.
> 
> As to issue 1:
> I am purely approaching it from the perspective of a database designer without taking into account marketing and accounting considerations. I have explained my perspective as well as I could on this thread and others.
> 
> As to issue 2:
> I don't believe the customer is always right. They can be pretty unreasonable and misformed and feel entitled more often than can be justified or tolerated.
> 
> For example, @Jan M. mentioned a woman complaining about the studio at St. Thomas resort as being too small. Granted Wyndham doesn't always provide layouts but they do specify the Studio's size as ~500 SqFt. Would she have been able to visualize a space of 500 SqFt with or without the layout? Probably not. Now, what can Wyndham do about such a complaint?
> Didn't she know all she had to do was to pull out her wand and cast the spell _Capacious extremis_ and she would have had a 4BR Presidential? Silly Muggles!



I can certainly agree to #2 as well as issue #2. Preaching to the choir again. I often call people out on comments like “They never told me I would be paying such a high amount”. I often say, “yes they did. It was on the financial disclosure statement that you signed”. Or, “They never told me about the rescission period”. Again, I tell them that is was disclosed in the contract that they signed. I also often hear, “We we’re tired and just wanted to get out of there, so we didn’t read it what we were signing”. I can understand that, but that doesn’t explain why they didn’t read it the next day. I also often get “That’s not helpful.” Or “that’s just rude”. It’s not rude. It’s telling them what they need to hear so they don’t make the same mistake. I also remind them that they made, what essentially was an impulse by. Most of us know, spending $20k+ on an impulse buy is never a great idea. I also often say that they probably spent more time researching the car they last bought, then the timeshare they just bought, even though they can often cost about the same. I believe they are more mad at themselves, for believing a commissioned salesman (again, which most of us know is a bad idea), and not doing do their due diligence. It’s easier to blame the sales person (who usually deserve the blame) then admit to their own mistakes. Most people don’t want to admit they made a dumb move. 


I do want to mention that I definitely never said the customer is always right. I do not believe they are. In fact, I believe that at least half the time they are wrong. Granted, I don’t have real numbers, but that’s what my gut tells me based on what I see in Facebook groups (not just the Wyndham ones), and in real life. 

With all that said, people have valid complaints. Maybe not all, but a fair amount. The system is complex and often not straight forward. I am a strong believer that people should try to help themselves before asking for help from others. However, a lot of times, they don’t know where to start. Many don’t realize that there is a search feature on the Facebook groups. It’s not exactly noticeable, especially on a mobile device, which most use to navigate these groups. Once you point it out, most are grateful. Some are offended and think you’re being a jerk. The latter doesn’t bother me. The point is, not every one is there for the sake of complaining. Many are there to find answers. You usually see the complaints in the comments, not the actual posts. There are some that seem to make it their personal mission to bash Wyndham at every opportunity. I usually poke at the ones who simply say “Wyndham is a scam”, “Run now!”, “Waste if money”. I will ask them to expand on it because their comments are useless and a waste of everyone’s time including their own. Some actually do expand on it. Others say some choice words I won’t repeat here. Again, the latter doesn’t bother me, because it shows others that they are there for the sake of complaint and shouldn’t be taken seriously. 

This post got a lot longer then I originally intended it to be.


----------



## HitchHiker71

SNA27 said:


> Damn! Stupid me and my 80-20 analogy! I meant it in the context of America vs. Venezuela. Not in the context of IT, at all. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I will try to respond later.



Respectfully - then why bring it up at all if you were not attempting to relate it to the topic at hand?  I think you were in fact trying to conflate the 80/20 rule on some level, hence my response.


----------



## SNA27

HitchHiker71 said:


> Respectfully - then why bring it up at all if you were not attempting to relate it to the topic at hand?  I think you were in fact trying to conflate the 80/20 rule on some level, hence my response.


80-20 was mentioned in the context of customer complaints. We have a tendency to pander to the lowest common denominator right from public schools, academia and other spheres of civil society. It's tiresome and it's no way to come up with a reasonable system that promotes excellence.

When it comes to competitive sports, people support the best team and nobody will support participation trophies or 'also-ran' awards or 'most improved' team trophies. But in schools and other spheres of life, pandering to the LCD seems to be the norm while ignoring or mocking the high achievers as 'nerds' or 'lucky'. In Japan, Korea, China, the academic sphere is highly competitive just like sports.

Pleasing everyone is impossible and such a goal will lead to ridiculous outcomes. In an ancient fable, it leads to father and son carrying the donkey instead of the donkey carrying the son or father or both.


----------



## comicbookman

SNA27 said:


> 80-20 was mentioned in the context of customer complaints. We have a tendency to pander to the lowest common denominator right from public schools, academia and other spheres of civil society. It's tiresome and it's no way to come up with a reasonable system that promotes excellence.
> 
> When it comes to competitive sports, people support the best team and nobody will support participation trophies or 'also-ran' awards or 'most improved' team trophies. But in schools and other spheres of life, pandering to the LCD seems to be the norm while ignoring or mocking the high achievers as 'nerds' or 'lucky'. In Japan, Korea, China, the academic sphere is highly competitive just like sports.
> 
> Pleasing everyone is impossible and such a goal will lead to ridiculous outcomes. In an ancient fable, it leads to father and son carrying the donkey instead of the donkey carrying the son or father or both.



Actually, while you were addressing comments about complaints, you mentioned 80-20 in a societal context.  Also,  lots of people support participation trophies (I am not one of them) that is why they continue to exist.  Sometimes it is pandering, sometimes it is encouraging (think Special Olympics)  Respectfully, Your complaint seems to be more about society than Wyndham, or the use of resale points.  I completely agree that pleasing everyone is impossible.  These forums are a perfect example of that.


----------



## SNA27

Special Olympics is a totally different category by itself born out of the compassion of the humane. 
It should not even be mentioned in the same breath as participation trophies for the fully-abled born out of the condescension of the elite.


----------



## Eric B

Red herrings are a totally different kind of fish than yellowfin tuna, too.


----------



## SNA27

Zen Koan? 

Actually, 'red herring' is a misleading clue or diversionary tactic.


----------



## comicbookman

SNA27 said:


> Special Olympics is a totally different category by itself born out of the compassion of the humane.
> It should not even be mentioned in the same breath as participation trophies for the fully-abled born out of the condescension of the elite.



The argument for participation trophies is that it is compassion.  Why shouldn't the less gifted be recognized as well.  The question is where does one draw the line?  is the child who is obese through no fault of there own, and therefore not athletically gifted, considered able-bodied?  Is the kid who is not coordinated enough to swim faster than a turtle, fully able-bodied?  I think you comment is unintentionally  condescending since it implies that you are the arbitrator of who is able-bodied and anyone who disagrees should not speak up.  As I have said previously, I am not in favor of participation trophies, but if a majority are, then so be it.  And in my world view, they get to mention things like that.


----------



## SNA27

Again a red herring. I was talking about academics and you switched to sports. I used to laugh at my son getting a team trophy for just being on the basketball team even though even he was not any good at it. My youngest was as bad in athletics as I used to be. But they have done well in other fields as have I. I am sure that obese kid and that uncoordinated kid have other God-given gifts. I was not condescending at all, just amused by all this pandering during the early years. Then the harsh reality of the real world strikes them at 18 or whenever and nobody gives a crap. And they end up being whiny little Wyndham customers complaining about studio size! Haha! All in jest!


----------



## comicbookman

[/QUOTE]


SNA27 said:


> Again a red herring. I was talking about academics and you switched to sports. I used to laugh at my son getting a team trophy for just being on the basketball team even though even he was not any good at it. My youngest was as bad in athletics as I used to be. But they have done well in other fields as have I. I am sure that obese kid or that uncoordinated kid have other god-given gifts. I was not condescending at all, just amused by all this pandering during the early years. Then the harsh reality of the real world strikes them at 18 or whenever and nobody gives a crap. And they end up being whiny little Wyndham customers complaining about studio size! Haha! All in jest!





SNA27 said:


> When it comes to competitive sports, people support the best team and nobody will support participation trophies or 'also-ran' awards or 'most improved' team trophies. But in schools and other spheres of life, pandering to the LCD seems to be the norm while ignoring or mocking the high achievers as 'nerds' or 'lucky'. In Japan, Korea, China, the academic sphere is highly competitive just like sports.



Again you try to claim you where misunderstood. You used both in the context of participation trophies.  Participation trophies started in sports.  I believe people who like to pretend they did not say what they actually said, grow up to complain about resale points getting VIP perks.


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## SNA27

Oh, come on, participation trophies, citizenship awards 'also-ran' or 'most improved' blah blah blah, I have seen them all. I only know them mostly from academic context having attended school functions.
While you don't seem to disagree with me in principle, you still want to disagree for some reason or the other. Idk why. 

And I have made it clear, I don't care one way or the other about resale points getting VIP benefits. I was just exploring ways to enforce the rules from a DB design perspective. That's all.


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## comicbookman

SNA27 said:


> Oh, come on, participation trophies, citizenship awards 'also-ran' or 'most improved' blah blah blah, I have seen them all. While you don't seem to disagree with me in principle, you still want to disagree for some reason or the other. Idk why. And I have made it clear, I don't care one way or the other about resale points getting VIP benefits. I was just exploring ways to enforce the rules from a DB design perspective. That's all.



That is why thy smiley.  I just find your habit of saying one thing and then denying it a pain to wade through and not that constructive.  Also, this is the wrong forum for a class on DB design.  It is clear that if Wyndham really wants to do do something policy wise, they will find a way.  (It may take them 3 or 4 tries as they seem to pick the low bidder for their IT work, a lot)  Hijacking a thread on the new privileges scheme to show off your , clearly advanced, knowledge of DB design is not what tugg is for.  (I admit that my complaint is not either, but I hit a breaking point)


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## SNA27

I didn't hijack this thread. If you go back and read the thread, you will see the 'ineligibility of resale points for VIP benefits' was brought up and I expressed my views from a DB design perspective. 
Saying one thing and denying it is not my style but if you say I did it, you MUST BE right. You could DM me the examples. Let's not crowd this thread. 
ROGER and OUT!


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## Tookatie29

Help!!! No one at Wyndham will answer my questions. The sales/marketing person at the 800 number was RUDE and said she won’t look up my account and answer unless I’m going to buy more points directly from them. The regular customer support state they haven’t been given info.

mom trying to figure out how many points I have, per Wyndham, counting toward the new VIP levels. I’m confused about how they count totals bc I have two odd year properties and one even year.
This is what I have presently:
84,000 even
166,000 odd
63,000 odd

I just bought a 4th with 300,000 annual. So, does this count as a total of 613,000 points (total of all contracts, period) or is it annual, which would be 456,500, I think???


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## HitchHiker71

comicbookman said:


> That is why thy smiley.  I just find your habit of saying one thing and then denying it a pain to wade through and not that constructive.  Also, this is the wrong forum for a class on DB design.  It is clear that if Wyndham really wants to do do something policy wise, they will find a way.  (It may take them 3 or 4 tries as they seem to pick the low bidder for their IT work, a lot)  Hijacking a thread on the new privileges scheme to show off your , clearly advanced, knowledge of DB design is not what tugg is for.  (I admit that my complaint is not either, but I hit a breaking point)



You are not the only one to hit a point of frustration.  And this is coming from someone who used to hold the title Enterprise Data Architect many years ago mind you, so I'm fairly familiar with database constructs.


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## dgalati

@SNA27 Oh my another hijacked thread. Way off topic now. Time for this one to be shut down. How many times do we have to go around the mulberry bush and beat this dead horse?


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## Braindead

Tookatie29 said:


> Help!!! No one at Wyndham will answer my questions. The sales/marketing person at the 800 number was RUDE and said she won’t look up my account and answer unless I’m going to buy more points directly from them. The regular customer support state they haven’t been given info.
> 
> mom trying to figure out how many points I have, per Wyndham, counting toward the new VIP levels. I’m confused about how they count totals bc I have two odd year properties and one even year.
> This is what I have presently:
> 84,000 even
> 166,000 odd
> 63,000 odd
> 
> I just bought a 4th with 300,000 annual. So, does this count as a total of 613,000 points (total of all contracts, period) or is it annual, which would be 456,500, I think???


Either way you are Silver VIP.  I know in the past it was total points that counted towards VIP Tiers.
Now they say on EOY you only count half of the size of the contract towards VIP Tiers. But I’m not 100% sure that’s accurate.
Your Silver & would have to buy more points to get to Gold or higher


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## comicbookman

dgalati said:


> @SNA27 Oh my another hijacked thread. Way off topic now. Time for this one to be shut down. How many times do we have to go around the mulberry bush and beat this dead horse?


I thought you were out.  I see no point to pm you the same examples I have put in the thread.


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## HitchHiker71

Tookatie29 said:


> Help!!! No one at Wyndham will answer my questions. The sales/marketing person at the 800 number was RUDE and said she won’t look up my account and answer unless I’m going to buy more points directly from them. The regular customer support state they haven’t been given info.
> 
> mom trying to figure out how many points I have, per Wyndham, counting toward the new VIP levels. I’m confused about how they count totals bc I have two odd year properties and one even year.
> This is what I have presently:
> 84,000 even
> 166,000 odd
> 63,000 odd
> 
> I just bought a 4th with 300,000 annual. So, does this count as a total of 613,000 points (total of all contracts, period) or is it annual, which would be 456,500, I think???



Contact Owner Services at: 800-251-8736

Owner Care can help answer your questions. Never speak to anyone in the sales/marketing division - it is their job to sell you more points regardless of whether you need them. 

How long have you been an owner? Your VIP level may be higher than Silver depending on whether you have grandfather status. If you have online access to your account, login via myclubwyndham.com and choose My Ownership - on that screen it will show your ownership Tier. If you are VIP you will see it listed as either Silver, Gold, or Platinum. If there is no tier listed, then you don’t have VIP for your account.

When did you purchase the 300k contract? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tookatie29

I just paid and provided info to initiate transfer today. I’m currently not VIP, but should be under new levels. I called customer care back and the was unsure how to answer the question about calculating points for purpose if determining VIP status, but eventually she landed on “its your contract points total regardless if use year”. I also noticed my contracted points online (what I listed) are not correct, the smaller contracts are actually 168,000 and 126,000 biannually but are listed wrong in the website acct info for some reason. My total points always end up right each year, but this shouldn’t be so confusing.


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## Braindead

Tookatie29 said:


> I just paid and provided info to initiate transfer today. I’m currently not VIP, but should be under new levels. I called customer care back and the was unsure how to answer the question about calculating points for purpose if determining VIP status, but eventually she landed on “its your contract points total regardless if use year”. I also noticed my contracted points online (what I listed) are not correct, the smaller contracts are actually 168,000 and 126,000 biannually but are listed wrong in the website acct info for some reason. My total points always end up right each year, but this shouldn’t be so confusing.


Resale points do not count towards being VIP. Your not VIP now & you will not be VIP after the 300,000 point transfers 
Sorry for the confusion as my post wrong, I read it like you purchased from Wyndham directly


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## ecwinch

Biannually contracts will be shown on the Club website as half the points you are awarded bi-annually (aka my 154k Every other year is shown as 77k biannual). That amount of points as shown is the amount that count toward VIP status if purchased from the developer.

So if on the Club website under My Ownership->Ownership Details it shows three biannual contracts of 84k, 166k, and 63k, then the answer is 613k pts after your 300k purchase.


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## dgalati

comicbookman said:


> I thought you were out.  I see no point to pm you the same examples I have put in the thread.


Hey you replied to wrong person!!!!! I think you intended to send this to @SNA27


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## Richelle

Tookatie29 said:


> Help!!! No one at Wyndham will answer my questions. The sales/marketing person at the 800 number was RUDE and said she won’t look up my account and answer unless I’m going to buy more points directly from them. The regular customer support state they haven’t been given info.
> 
> mom trying to figure out how many points I have, per Wyndham, counting toward the new VIP levels. I’m confused about how they count totals bc I have two odd year properties and one even year.
> This is what I have presently:
> 84,000 even
> 166,000 odd
> 63,000 odd
> 
> I just bought a 4th with 300,000 annual. So, does this count as a total of 613,000 points (total of all contracts, period) or is it annual, which would be 456,500, I think???



As of now, you’re NOT VIP. Nor will you be with the new program, unless those 300,000 points you bought were direct from Wyndham and not eBay or another third party. Per the directory, only half your points count towards VIP (assuming they were bought directly from Wyndham). I seriously doubt Wyndham will change that with the new program, because that would mean they were giving away VIP to people who didn’t invest the money into VIP. Assuming the odd and even contracts were bought directly from WYNDHAM, you only have 156,500 that count towards VIP. Even with the new tier they are adding, it wouldn’t be enough. Even if it was, you’d still have to buy more to get the lower tier. Again, if they didn’t do it that way, they’d be giving away VIP for free. Existing VIPs will keep their status. Existing Platinum VIP who have 1.4 million points will be Founder in the new program. 

The new contract you just bought, was it purchased directly from Wyndham? If not, it does not count towards VIP. Otherwise, everyone would be VIP.


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## Richelle

Tookatie29 said:


> I just paid and provided info to initiate transfer today. I’m currently not VIP, but should be under new levels. I called customer care back and the was unsure how to answer the question about calculating points for purpose if determining VIP status, but eventually she landed on “its your contract points total regardless if use year”. I also noticed my contracted points online (what I listed) are not correct, the smaller contracts are actually 168,000 and 126,000 biannually but are listed wrong in the website acct info for some reason. My total points always end up right each year, but this shouldn’t be so confusing.



Go to the “My Ownership” section of the My Club Wyndham website. On the main page of the Ownership section, there will be a tier section, if you’re VIP. If it doesn’t say Silver, Gold, or Platinum, your mom is not VIP.


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## Eric B

Richelle said:


> As of now, you’re mom is NOT VIP. Nor will she be with the new program, unless those 300,000 points you bought were direct from Wyndham and not eBay or another third party. Per the directory, only half your points count towards VIP (assuming they were bought directly from Wyndham). I seriously doubt Wyndham will change that with the new program, because that would mean they were giving away VIP to people who didn’t invest the money into VIP. Assuming the odd and even contracts were bought directly from WYNDHAM, you only have 156,500 that count towards VIP. Even with the new tier they are adding, it wouldn’t be enough. Even if it was, you’d still have to buy more to get the lower tier. Again, if they didn’t do it that way, they’d be giving away VIP for free. Existing VIPs will keep their status. Existing Platinum VIP who have 1.4 million points will be Founder in the new program.
> 
> The new contract you just bought, was it purchased directly from Wyndham? If not, it does not count towards VIP. Otherwise, everyone would be VIP.



I’m not sure, but my interpretation was that @Tookatie29 is the “mom” mentioned in the posting; it seems self-referential because she later says “mom” is trying to figure out how many VIP points “I” have.  It doesn’t change the discussion much, but there aren’t potential multiple account holders if I’m right about that.


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## Richelle

Eric B said:


> I’m not sure, but my interpretation was that @Tookatie29 is the “mom” mentioned in the posting; it seems self-referential because she later says “mom” is trying to figure out how many VIP points “I” have. It doesn’t change the discussion much, but there aren’t potential multiple account holders if I’m right about that.



True. She said “My” enough to make me think she is referring to herself, so I edited my post. Thanks.


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## SNA27

Shouldn't this be on its own thread? On her very first post here, I started a conversation to help her out and pointed this out as well.

#############################################
Hi,
You might want to post this on a separate thread.
But it looks to me you should have 384,000 in Even years and 529,000 in Odd years.
You should be able to check this online at MYCLUBWYNDHAM.COM
I hope you have an online account. Otherwise, it's easy to register and create one.
Good luck.

-------------------
Help!!! No one at Wyndham will answer my questions. The sales/marketing person at the 800 number was RUDE and said she won’t look up my account and answer unless I’m going to buy more points directly from them. The regular customer support state they haven’t been given info.

mom trying to figure out how many points I have, per Wyndham, counting toward the new VIP levels. I’m confused about how they count totals bc I have two odd year properties and one even year.
This is what I have presently:
84,000 even
166,000 odd
63,000 odd

I just bought a 4th with 300,000 annual. So, does this count as a total of 613,000 points (total of all contracts, period) or is it annual, which would be 456,500, I think???


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## dgalati

@SNA27 How can any of the last several pages help answer the Ops original question?  Why has this thread gone so off topic? Its time to lock or shut this thread down or get back to OP's original question.


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## SNA27

Excuse me! I hope you're not blaming me for this run-away bobsled!

I started a Conversation with the errant poster instead of posting on the thread to help her as much as I could and advised her to start a new thread. I thought that's what we're supposed to do.
It's the longtime posters or 'ELDERS of TUG' if you prefer, that helped this bobsled slide way off track!
@HitchHiker71 posted his helpful comment right on this thread instead of a PM and it went sideways after that. I don't blame him.  Or the FOLLOWER posters including the moderator @ecwinch! That's how a bobsled slides!


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## ecwinch

[Moderator Note:
This thread has wandered off-topic so many times that starting to delete all off-topic posts at this late date would do more harm than good IMHO. But since numerous posters seem to want moderators to step in and help keep threads on topic, I will start doing so immediately going forward. ]

I personally find that ironic, as the people most responsible taking threads off-topic seem to want moderators to curb their abuses. But so be it.


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## Richelle

With that said, I had asked one of the executives what the theme was, to the names of the tiers. Most loyalty or VIP programs have themes. Maybe colors, Metals, etc. There didn’t seem to be any theme. This was the answer I got. 


“The original Privileges titles that rolled out were to align with Wyndham Rewards. That proved to be too confusing between Club Wyndham Points and Wyndham Rewards Points. The newest levels are trying to show levels of exclusivity and prestige. They are something to spend years to continue growing towards as an achievement.”


If that were the case, I would think legend would be above founders, but that’s just me. Also, I am not sure about the “achievement” part. Is it an “achievement” to spend six figures? Maybe the achievement is that you can (hopefully) afford to pay six figures. I don’t know.


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## HitchHiker71

dgalati said:


> @SNA27 How can any of the last several pages help answer the Ops original question? Why has this thread gone so off topic? Its time to lock or shut this thread down or get back to OP's original question.



This thread was a merge of a few different threads all surrounding Privileges from many moons ago, so there isn’t one OP. IIRC one of my own own threads was one of the merges - which means I’m also one of the OPs. If I want to change the topic or respond to someone else’s post that takes the thread off topic - as an OP I would surmise that is an option I can choose to exercise - but I will of course defer to the moderators if I am mistaken.

I have several asks surrounding Privileges into my contacts at Wyndham and will share whatever feedback I receive when I receive it.  A subset of those asks have come from recent inquires in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jan M.

Richelle said:


> With that said, I had asked one of the executives what the theme was, to the names of the tiers. Most loyalty or VIP programs have themes. Maybe colors, Metals, etc. There didn’t seem to be any theme. This was the answer I got.
> 
> 
> “The original Privileges titles that rolled out were to align with Wyndham Rewards. That proved to be too confusing between Club Wyndham Points and Wyndham Rewards Points. The newest levels are trying to show levels of exclusivity and prestige. They are something to spend years to continue growing towards as an achievement.”
> 
> 
> If that were the case, I would think legend would be above founders, but that’s just me. Also, I am not sure about the “achievement” part. Is it an “achievement” to spend six figures? Maybe the achievement is that you can (hopefully) afford to pay six figures. I don’t know.



At the owners meeting in Austin I was very disappointed to hear them announce that the names of the levels were one of the few things that had been decided upon and would not change. My first reaction upon seeing these, the second set of names, was that surely they were just another work in progress and they would come up with something better, something that made sense. The names certainly defy the common sense directive k.i.s.s., keep it simple stupid.

The explanation of how we will remember the names, the acronym A  CALF, is insulting and offensive to all owners who spent enough to be any Privileges level. The strongest associations that come to mind when you think of calf is of calves being fattened up for veal or the fattened calf being killed in the biblical story of the prodigal son which many people have heard of even if they never set foot in a Church or Temple. Neither of which have positive associations. Apparently enough people in Wyndham thought it was a good idea to use anything that might project them as seeing us as the oh so sweet and innocent young calves being fattened up for the kill by salespeople.

Founders is the the name that makes the least sense and it's a stretch to use it in a context other than this.
NOUN
*founders* (plural noun)

a person who establishes an institution or settlement.
"he was the founder of modern Costa Rica"

I have this picture in my head of the Howells from Gilligan's Island walking into a resort explaining to the check in people "Darling girl/boy, you must understand that we are THE Howells. We are Wyndham's founders and we absolutely must have your best unit!" For those of you who didn't grow up watching the show or aren't into watching reruns on the TV Land channel, the Howells, Mr. and Mrs. Thurston Howell III,  were very old money as the saying goes and their family could have been founders of a number of companies.


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## SNA27

FOUNDER - Millionaires Mr. & Mrs. Howell
LEGEND - Movie Legend Ginger
AMBASSADOR - The Professor
CHAMPION  - The Skipper
ADVANTAGE - Mary Ann and Gilligan

And they're all LOST on an UNCHARTED island! It fits! @Jan M., I think you're on to something!


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## SNA27

@Jan M.,
If Privileges is still an amorphous work-in-progress, then we're all *A*s *C*lueless *A*s to be out on the* L*eft *F*ield!

Didn't realize F stood for Fatted Calf! I can hear the Celebration coming!

_We'll kill the fatted calf tonight, so stick around,
you're gonna hear electric music, solid walls of sound._

I think I would need Cliff notes to understand the lyrics of Elton John!


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## Jan M.

SNA27 said:


> FOUNDER - Millionaires Mr. & Mrs. Howell
> LEGEND - Movie Legend Ginger
> AMBASSADOR - The Professor
> CHAMPION  - The Skipper
> ADVANTAGE - Mary Ann and Gilligan
> 
> And they're all LOST on an UNCHARTED island! It fits! @Jan M., I think you're on to something!



Good play on my post.

Lost on an uncharted island, encouraging a sense of entitlement or the very unfortunate acronym A CALF that likens us to the "oh so sweet and innocent young calves being fattened up for the kill by salespeople", any way you look at it this is one swing that is a really big miss. The humiliating swing you make that lives on in your list of life's most embarrassing moments because it caused your team to lose the game, all your family and friends were there to witness it and the girl or boy you had a big crush on was there too.

I understand wanting to put your brand on something but renaming the VIP program Privileges is enough of reinventing the wheel. Using something that works and everyone understands like metals, gems, colors, numbers, etc., makes much more sense and doesn't come across as ridiculous, offensive or pretentious. In school most of us learned the acronym for the colors of the rainbow, ROYGBIV, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet. So say I decide since I have a captive group of hundreds of thousands of people that I should force them to start calling those colors scarlet, carrot, canary, chartreuse, azure, reddish blue, purple and tell everyone to just remember SCCCARP. I'm sure everyone is just going to jump right on board with that until it catches on throughout the entire world and no one is going to call me an idiot or worse. Some things shouldn't be changed out of all recognition.

This is one time I'm really hoping that the people Wyndham has monitoring the threads sees both of our posts and take what they are hearing back to the people above them. Also that the PTB, Powers That Be, in Wyndham have the good sense to reconsider the names.


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## SNA27

Hmm, we went from High frequency to Low frequency, or bottom-up on the Rainbow, so VIBGYOR flowed out easier!

Emerald-Silver-Gold-Platinum-Diamond-Titanium mixing up gems with metals seemed klutzy too.

I guess, *Aluminium-*Silver-Gold-Platinum-Titanium didn't make the cut. 

Haven't they heard of Focus Groups?

I would have gone with Bronze-Silver-Gold-Platinum-Platinum Honors or Platinum Plus.
Everybody can relate to Bronze being less than silver and Platinum Plus being more than Platinum.


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## kaljor

I'm not super concerned about the names, but I do have to side with Wyndham on their reason for changing them  I can easily see people conflating the Gold, Silver, Platinum of the Wyndham system with the Wyndham Rewards system.  It is better to keep them different.


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## SNA27

kaljor said:


> I'm not super concerned about the names, but I do have to side with Wyndham on their reason for changing them  I can easily see people conflating the Gold, Silver, Platinum of the Wyndham system with the Wyndham Rewards system.  It is better to keep them different.



WR Member Levels: BLUE-GOLD-PLATINUM-DIAMOND
Wyndham VIP Levels: SILVER-GOLD-PLATINUM

Confusion, if any, was already present or absent!

I agree with @Jan M. that this word jumble Advantage-Champion-Ambassador-Legend-Founder makes no sense at all and they seem to have tried very hard to be too clever by half!


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## gwberg

I just checked the Wyndham website and I am still listed as a Gold VIP. Without new names what does that make me? When will they show up on the website?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rolltydr

gwberg said:


> I just checked the Wyndham website and I am still listed as a Gold VIP. Without new names what does that make me? When will they show up on the website?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Privileges, whatever it turns out to be, isn’t being implemented until late this year, at the earliest. Absolutely no changes have been made to the VIP program at this time.


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## gwberg

Thanks a lot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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