# Need some hand-holding with 4 days left to recind



## JPinCO (Aug 22, 2010)

Location: Grand Lodge at Peak 7 in Breckenridge
Property: 1 BR biennial Spring / Fall, Week 16 (definitely the off-season for skiing). 
Costs: ~$11K for property, annual fees of $240, pmt of $160/month
Us: We were avid skiers before we got married (~20 days a year), we now have two kids (1 and 3) and we want to get them out skiing as soon and as much as possible. We also hike, mountain bike, etc; and intend to get them into mountains as much (if not more) during the summer as the winter.

We signed the paperwork yesterday (8/21), so we have 4 days left on rescission. Obviously, this is our first timeshare, and we had no intention of actually signing up before attending. We made the decision based on a few factors, but I'm still so unfamiliar with this kind of investment that I need to have a sounding board. Here were our reasons, which are perhaps a little different form other timeshares:

Primary) Ownership includes "resort privileges" as a club member, which means that we have day use access to all the facilities even if we're not staying there. Parking, ski in/out, fantastic kid facilities.  We live 1-1/2 hours away, so the resort is very accessible. Those of you who ski know how much of a major hassle it is just to park at a resort - village garage parking at Vail is now $35 a day and is no where near slope side. Those of you with toddlers know that there range of attention / threshold for cold weather / duration without naps is very limited. So the convenience of having that facility, especially when you're investing in ski passes etc, is huge. 

Secondary) The resort offers "Bonus Time" prices for unfilled rentals throughout the year at discounted prices (<14 days in advance); from $59 a night for offseason weekdays to $209 a night for ski season. Weeks like xmas would be booked so those won't be available, but I have no interest in going skiing during those times anyway. 

Tertiary) Ownership includes membership to Interval, so the options to exchange for vacations elsewhere is a pretty big deal now that we actually have to plan out stuff with the kids. 

Now, I know it's contrary to reason to purchase a timeshare to use primarily as a day-trip base, but this is the reality of most folks who ski from the Denver area where we live. Having the ability for my wife to take the kids while I ski in the morning, and vice-versa in the afternoon, is big. Sitting in a crowded lodge with a kid who needs to be entertained is a crappy option. The catch is that we have to call in 7 days in advance to get a parking spot (which I understand fill up quickly), but I have to plan everything in advance anyway these days. Our jobs allow a certain degree of flexibility, so we will likely use the facilities on weekdays year round sometimes as well. And the facilities are really, really nice; especially for the kids. 

I have a lot to learn about the exchange process, but as I indicated above, right now the use / non-use of my week is not as important. If it all work out, we may look to upgrade to a bigger property and/or in the ski season expand our options to better leverage rentals, etc. The sales guy said the day privileges would transfer after sell-though; but it sounds like that could change & that could subsequently change the value of the property in 2013 when build out is complete. It's a concern, but not a huge one if we can get the use out of it in the first 5 years that I think we will. I eventually expect to exit the property in 5-7 years and look at buying a single-family property outright elsewhere in the mountains when the boys are older and we can afford it (which we can't right now).

I'm looking at it this way: In the first couple of years while our kids are pretty young, we'll take advantage of the day-use privileges about once a month (I think it'll be more, but I'll be conservative). We'll probably stay up there overnight probably 10 nights a year on bonus time, because I have friends who come in for a long weekend for skiing usually in February; plus we'll do some Spring / Summer / Fall weekends. I suppose that will average about $125 a night (a high estimate), so that'll be another $1250 a year in lodging costs on top of the note. In aggregate, that's around $3400 for 10 nights, or about $340 per night in straight cost (of course a portion of that will go into equity and some degree of tax deductibilty). 

The day-use convenience is pretty significant - I would say that it would be very difficult to get those days in without parking, ski in/out + the facilities - but I'll give a conservative estimate of $100 per day, so that takes the nightly cost down to $220 per night. That's about the cost of the Holiday Inn in Frisco for a non-holiday weekend in February.

So - I would love to hear some of the more sophisticated users take a critical look at my rationale. And if there are other owners at Grand Lodge in CO that can chime in, there's a beer waiting for you at the lodge for any insight you can provide.  

Thanks!


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## siesta (Aug 22, 2010)

rescind immediately. i wouldn't even wait another day. if you really want a ski week, buy resale, you will save thousands.  even if you can't find that particular ts, you can find one comparable in the area to get for 10% of the developer price.


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## AwayWeGo (Aug 22, 2010)

*Rescinda-Sinda-Sinda.*

Get out of it while you can. 

Nothing that the timeshare companies sell at full freight is worth the money. 

That specially goes for Wyndham V.I.P. 

Buy timeshares resale.  Save thousands of dollars on exactly the same thing, or the equivalent, or something even better. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## jnjn (Aug 22, 2010)

*Denise's article on recinding*

Here is an article that Denise the Moderator gives on the topic.  It has everything you need!

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74493


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2010)

RESCIND! -  after you rescind you will have all the time in the world to do your research and decide if you want to buy a timeshare with no pressure.

If you decide to buy in the future - buy resale where you will save 50-100%!


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## JPinCO (Aug 22, 2010)

Guys- while I appreciate the quick responses, I don't think my reasons were fully understood. The *day-use* part of it is a very big part of why we considered it -we have very little interest in actually using a ski week at Breck straight-up; which is why we got in on the shoulder season.

Perhaps I should have more prominently pointed out that the day-use privileges are non-transferable until build-out. A resale of the same property would not have the day-use option, and would be not be at all appealing to me.


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## AwayWeGo (Aug 22, 2010)

*Timeshare Day Use Can Be A Sticky Wicket.*




JPinCO said:


> The *day-use* part of it is a very big part of why we considered it -we have very little interest in actually using a ski week at Breck straight-up; which is why we got in on the shoulder season.


If you go for the full-freight deal on the strength of prospective day use of the timeshare resort's facilities & amenities, etc., then make sure you get that specifically & in writing -- & that you see the language in writing without any expiration date before you sign anything. 

The reason for that is not just that the timeshare sellers are apt to tell people anything in order to seal a deal, but also that timeshare resorts' facilities & amenities are designed & built to a capacity that will accommodate everybody who's checked in there via ownership or rental or exchange reservation.  

Add some indefinite number of non-checked-in day users to the mix & before long the features & attractions that made the resort so desirable are too overcrowded for optimum enjoyment. 

Unless you've got guaranteed day use _in writing_, it might be a phantom.  Might also be legit, I don't know -- just be careful & take nothing for granted. 

It would be a shame to lay out those big bux to a full-freight timeshare company only to discover later on that you didn't really get everything you thought you were paying for. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​​​


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## timeos2 (Aug 22, 2010)

*Rescind - Cancel - Do it NOW*



JPinCO said:


> Guys- while I appreciate the quick responses, I don't think my reasons were fully understood. The *day-use* part of it is a very big part of why we considered it -we have very little interest in actually using a ski week at Breck straight-up; which is why we got in on the shoulder season.
> 
> Perhaps I should have more prominently pointed out that the day-use privileges are non-transferable until build-out. A resale of the same property would not have the day-use option, and would be not be at all appealing to me.



At $160 per month with a MINIMUM payout of $18,000 + over at least 5 years I assume - you can't find a club or rentals that will get you what you want WITHOUT the massive $11K upfront expenditure? Those bonus weeks" are readily available through RCI/II without you having to be an owner.  Plus fees will only go up over time (speaking of those $240 maint fees). 

Look, you asked so we're telling you. The value as a purchase and eventual resale value is NOT there at the price you're proposing to pay.  If YOU feel you can't do better than that cost to get day use when you want it and are willing to count the $11k plus as merely the cost of getting that access then, for you, it is apparently worth it no matter what we say.  If it were me I'd rescind & study the options really really well before saddling myself with a $11K plus annual fee purchase I'm not 110% convinced is best (you're asking so there is at least some doubt there). IF after you rescind & study all your options the deal still seems good they WILL sell it to you again. Really. They want the sale. So getting out now and taking your time will only make you more confident you did the right thing and that alone can be priceless. 

Rescind now.


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2010)

I agree with AwayWeGo - Unless the day use privileges are spelled out and guaranteed in your contract, they could go away at any time.  It is not at all unusual for management to change the rules with things like this.  If there is too much day use, the board of directors could simply eliminate it.  Then you will be stuck with a deed with zero resale value, and probably loan payments, for something that's worthless - you won't be able to sell it and you will still be responsible for the maintenance fees, which always go up!  I have a timeshare that I bought in 2002 and the maintenance fees have doubled in 8 years!  

It doesn't matter what the salesperson told you - day use is something that can usually be easily changed!

Please read the article linked in post #4.

You owe it to yourself to get out of this deal while you can, and then take your time to make a decision.

If this turns out to be what you want it will still be there next week, and next month, and probably even next year.

Salespeople try to make you believe that you have to buy right now, so that you don't have time to research all your alternatives - don't fall for it!


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## timeos2 (Aug 22, 2010)

*Make value out of poor time if you can*



AwayWeGo said:


> Add some indefinite number of non-checked-in day users to the mix & before long the features & attractions that made the resort so desirable are too overcrowded for optimum enjoyment.
> 
> Unless you've got guaranteed day use _in writing_, it might be a phantom.  Might also be legit, I don't know -- just be careful & take nothing for granted.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​​​



Great point Alan.  At our Cape Cod resort one of the guaranteed features of ownership is day use of the facilities. And yes, it DOES transfer on resale as it is a right granted the owners not some sales gimmick just to get a quick high priced sale and then unilaterally change the terms (can any one say Wyndham VIP benefits?) 

But even with that guarantee there comes rules. If the resort is at 90% or higher occupancy then day use is prohibited.  As you say the need to assure on site guests unencumbered access to the great resort features overrides the right of all owner to simply come by & use them at will. All owners understand it and it has never been a big problem to enforce. 

It also is one of many ways a resort in a highly seasonal area can create value for owners from what may otherwise be poor value time. By giving this "perk" as part of ownership and by designing amenities for year round use (indoor tennis, pools, etc) it makes the off season times a viable time to visit. Thus holding on to paying owners that otherwise might bailout if the value received is less than the fees paid. 

Work at it and be creative especially in tough to sell seasonal areas.


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## siesta (Aug 22, 2010)

the MF are probably that low because they are subsidized, and if/when the ts sells out, they will see a significant increase along with the 3%+ annual increase.

I think timeos is spot on when he said that if you are mainly looking for a day-use club, there are ones to be had without have to pay $11k + interest + all the other expenditures that come with a ts.


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## JPinCO (Aug 22, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> If you go for the full-freight deal on the strength of prospective day use of the timeshare resort's facilities & amenities, etc., then make sure you get that specifically & in writing -- & that you see the language in writing without any expiration date before you sign anything.
> 
> The reason for that is not just that the timeshare sellers are apt to tell people anything in order to seal a deal, but also that timeshare resorts' facilities & amenities are designed & built to a capacity that will accommodate everybody who's checked in there via ownership or rental or exchange reservation.
> 
> ...



Thanks - that's what I'm looking for. Right now it is in writing that "Resort Privileges" is guaranteed; but I think that the charter can get re-written and voted on when build-out is completed in 2013. I think that's when it'll also be determined whether resort privileged can be transferred with ownership. I have to do more research on that. Right now their BBB report is pretty strong, which is a good sign. 

I imagine that it can get crowded, even as they extend the build-out with more parking & more facilities, and that is a concern; but I imagine that there are times that it's pretty sparse. It certainly wasn't crowded this past weekend. 

If it comes down to a HOA vote at the conclusion of build-out, it'll be interesting. I think there are quite a lot of Colorado owners, based on what I've been reading. Sure would like to talk to some of them before the rescission period expires.


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## Karen G (Aug 22, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> Costs: ~$11K for property, annual fees of $240, pmt of $160/month
> . . . we now have two kids (1 and 3) and we want to get them out skiing as soon and as much as possible


Are you financing this purchase and paying $160/mo. on the loan? While having the parking and facilities for kids seems attractive now, consider the fact that your kids aren't going to be toddlers forever. There is just a period of time of a few years where their young ages may make your ski trips more difficult. 

But if you buy that timeshare the annual maintenance fees are going to go on forever and are going to increase dramatically once the developer is out of the picture. At new resorts the developer incurs part of those annual fees and the resort is new and doesn't require as much maintenance. But as the resort ages and there's more wear and tear on it, costs will increase. The owners will be paying for that.

Rescind while you can--you have just this one opportunity to do so. Spend some time checking out the resale market. Realistically figure out your costs to pay for parking when you really need it. Is it really worth it to you to be paying $160/mo for several years at probably a high rate of interest just for the ability to maybe get free parking--and that's really not even guaranteed--for a few days a year in ski season?


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2010)

Just one more point - you have NOTHING to lose by rescinding.  But you only have one opportunity to do so, and then it's gone forever.  

You should rescind so that you have the time to research this completely - and THEN make an informed decision.


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## 89MustangGX (Aug 22, 2010)

Don't know the area to know which ones are close to you, or which ones offer similar amenities, but a quick eBay search comes up with about 5 TS's for sale in Breckenridge starting at $1 -- and most have no bids on them.

Worth looking into...

http://realestate.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=Breckenridge&_sacat=15897&_dmpt=Timeshares

Adam


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## JPinCO (Aug 22, 2010)

siesta said:


> the MF are probably that low because they are subsidized, and if/when the ts sells out, they will see a significant increase along with the 3%+ annual increase.
> 
> I think timeos is spot on when he said that if you are mainly looking for a day-use club, there are ones to be had without have to pay $11k + interest + all the other expenditures that come with a ts.



Yeah, I kinda figured the MFs might rise substantially in the future. Looks like I need to build an excel model to get a sense of where my pain point would be. But thanks for bringing that up. 

As for getting a membership into a specific day-use only club - I do need to do more research, but I'm not inclined to do it.  Paying an annual membership to a day-use area would mean that it's 100% a sunk cost, with no equity or tax considerations. Having lived in a mountain town for 7 years in the past, I doubt go that route, unless it was really cheap. My gut tells me that I doubt we could find that kind of slopeside access & amenities for even close to $500 per month. Perpetually, for 10 years, that's $60,000 down the drain. I do know that a parking spot in Vail - just the asphalt - can be purchased for around $30K(!), which is ridiculous.


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2010)

If by equity and tax considerations you mean some kind of a write-off from this purchase, the only write-off is a few bucks on property tax and possibly interest, if you financed it with a 2nd on your home mortgage.  Otherwise - no write-offs.  (Sometimes sales people try to make you believe that there are a lot of write-offs.)

If by equity, you mean the deed will increase in value - it won't.  It's like a used car only worse - as soon as you drive it off the lot it's worth next to nothing.  Right now most timeshares are selling for 0-10% of original retail.  There are over 300 timeshares on ebay for sale for $1 - $100 and most have no bids.


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## pkyorkbeach (Aug 22, 2010)

Rescind
The people on this forum have been purchasing, trading, buying etc.. For years.  They know the ins and outs of TimeSharing.  I am new too!! Their advice is right on..

I have a TS that was transferred and I received day priviledges.

Save your money


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## 89MustangGX (Aug 22, 2010)

I am still new to all of this, but I did a lot of reading and researching before thinking about purchasing.

You are NOT going to build equity into the TS like the developer would like you to believe. There will be no appreciation of the property and you are not going to be able to use it for a loan or even be able to refinance it. It is "sunk" money as you mentioned before.

Despite what the developer tells you, once the initial unit is sold (to you and others who make the first purchase), even the high priced resellers will only be able to sell for 10% of your purchase price ($1000?), and like I posted above, similar units on eBay are listed for $1 -- and some are even ski weeks!

Even for trading, I think you will find a non-ski week in a ski resort to be less desirable to other people, which will make your trading difficult.

This is something you should re-evaluate and crunch numbers on and speak to some of the really experienced people on here about before doing. TS may not be the right thing for you -- the people on here have nothing to gain and make no money from their advice, they will be honest and tell you.

Adam


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 22, 2010)

I know so many locals here in the Denver area that have been invited to these presentations at Grand Peak Lodge, including our daughter-in-law's parents, and the day-use they promise is VERY LIMITED, and when the sales department leaves the resort, that use can be ended at any time.   

If everyone they sell in Denver-Boulder gets promised this day use, consider the numbers of people you are competing against on a weekly basis for those parking spots.   

We know a Denver firefighter who bought the same thing, but at least they bought a summer week (red season), and we warned them about buying.  Now they have big regrets over their purchase, but they wouldn't rescind because they kept talking about day use privileges.  That's quite a sales pitch they have going.  How much can you park for $11K?  Do the math!  

You bought a useless week (blue/ green season).  You need to rescind.  I am giving away a blue week in Frisco, in a townhouse style condo, much larger and with a private garage, and no one will take it, so I know how worthless what you bought is.  Someday, you won't even be able to GIVE it away.  And guess what?  Even if those day use privileges stay for years, anyone who takes your week won't get the day use, because they won't allow resale buyers.  Ding!  They just downgraded what you own as any kind of investment.  Timeshares are worth about zero anyway, and blue weeks cannot even be given away.   Why would you pay $11K for this blue week?   

I think you are determined to keep the week and hoped someone would extol the virtue of your smart purchase.  No one is going to do that.


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## falmouth3 (Aug 22, 2010)

I've said this before.  People come here, ask for an opinion.  They get a unanimous response to rescind and then they argue why they think what they have is a good deal.

OP, you can listen to the good advice you get here, and rescind.  Or you pay an enormous amount of money to learn that you haven't chosen the best use of your money.

Rescind, educate yourself and then if you still think it's a great deal, then go back and get the same deal that you have now.

Best wishes.


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## AwayWeGo (Aug 22, 2010)

*Timeshare Sellers Have The Gift Of Gab.  TUG-BBS Members, Not So Much.*




falmouth3 said:


> People come here, ask for an opinion.  They get a unanimous response to rescind and then they argue why they think what they have is a good deal.
> 
> OP, you can listen to the good advice you get here, and rescind.  Or you pay an enormous amount of money to learn that you haven't chosen the best use of your money.
> 
> Rescind, educate yourself and then if you still think it's a great deal, then go back and get the same deal that you have now.


The thing is, it all sounds so fabulous coming from the moving lips of the professional timeshare sellers across those little tables with the background muzak playing. 

No way hard-headed cold & sober advice from regular walking-around TUG-BBS participants can hold a candle to that. 

So it goes. 

BTW, it takes a major serious golden-throated _Gift Of Gab_ to get people to fork over thousands of dollars for timeshare deeds that are worth approximately _Zero_ on the open market.  I don't see how the professional timeshare sellers live with themselves.  They check their consciences in the staff locker rooms, I suppose. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## JPinCO (Aug 22, 2010)

Believe me, I do understand that folks are giving me their best advice, and I appreciate it. It just seems that a lot of people are pushing for the resale market; when that can't get me want I want (primarily day-use). So for us, it's more of a function of do this, or nothing.

So I get that I should treat this as a sunk cost. I can accept that - I figured that it wouldn't be substantial anyway. 



Karen G said:


> Are you financing this purchase and paying $160/mo. on the loan? While having the parking and facilities for kids seems attractive now, consider the fact that your kids aren't going to be toddlers forever. There is just a period of time of a few years where their young ages may make your ski trips more difficult.


Point taken. I do think that it'll be much more than ski season, but even when they're older it's a substantial convenience factor. I know that 'parking' to a lot of you sounds very, very frivolous. Anyone in Denver will tell you that in order to even get into a $35/day spot in the Vail garage (still a 10 min walk from the lifts), you have to leave no later than 6am on the weekends. It fills up by 8am and then you have a 1/2 mile walk in ski boots. In Breck, it's 20 mins on a shuttle buses. And that means no lockers, showers, indoor pool, game room, movie theaters, etc. 



Karen G said:


> But if you buy that timeshare the annual maintenance fees are going to go on forever and are going to increase dramatically once the developer is out of the picture. At new resorts the developer incurs part of those annual fees and the resort is new and doesn't require as much maintenance. But as the resort ages and there's more wear and tear on it, costs will increase. The owners will be paying for that.



So how much is the expected increase, on average? 2X or 10x? Someone mentioned 2x in eight years, which I can accept. I really don't know, so anything you can tell me would be great. 



Karen G said:


> Is it really worth it to you to be paying $160/mo for several years at probably a high rate of interest just for the ability to maybe get free parking--and that's really not even guaranteed--for a few days a year in ski season?


 Again -I understand it sounds silly. But if you're driving an hour and a half to spend only a couple of hours to ski with the kids, it becomes a "not worth it" proposition. Being able to have a place to chill from 2pm to 6pm while the traffic crawls back to Denver is huge.  I'll put it another way - we have quite a few friends that buy condos in Summit County ($400K and up) just to avoid that traffic. Literally. I am a bit concerned that the day-use deal could go away in 3 years, so I need to get a better sense of how hard it would be to offload the property, and how steep a hit I would take off the full price I paid. It does sound like the shoulder season would be hard to exchange, so that's a concern.

Given our current situation, I probably would not be that interested in any resale ski timeshare without day use. Even for $1. 

It does appear that this particular location is holding its value OK, although I'm sure that the resale prices shown are above what the final prices are.  http://www.sellmytimesharenow.com/t.../search_sell/Operation/5/SearchResortID/9425/

Since those don't include day-use, I'm not at all interested; but isn't it a good sign that the market rates are not in the 10% range; and more like 70-80% (even for the spring/fall shoulder season? Or am I misinterpreting it?

Again - I appreciate the responses. I may still exercise the rescission option, but I want to take the time to understand all the details. It does sound like that for all their bluster about having to commit now to secure the day-use deal, it would be available a month from now or a year from now. Although -we had already began to make plans to use it as soon as September and we need to buy our season ski passes; so if we are going to do it, we might as well do it sooner rather than later.


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## Karen G (Aug 22, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> Being able to have a place to chill from 2pm to 6pm while the traffic crawls back to Denver is huge.


For the amount of money you're spending, I'll bet you could pick up a nice used RV. Then you'd have a place to chill and your own bathroom, and you wouldn't be at the mercy of changing day-use rules at the timeshare.


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> I am a bit concerned that the day-use deal could go away in 3 years, so I need to get a better sense of how hard it would be to offload the property, and how steep a hit I would take off the full price I paid. It does sound like the shoulder season would be hard to exchange, so that's a concern.



That's what we are telling you - this property has no resale value.  If you buy it, you will not be able to resell it, and you will be lucky to give it away.  You will lose 100% of what you paid.  If you can't sell it or give it away, you are legally responsible for the maintenance fees forever. 

Go look on ebay at the hundreds of timeshares that people are desparately trying to give away at a 100% loss. 

I don't know what else we can say to you, but the bottom line is that you have no risk by rescinding, and major risk if you don't.


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## Karen G (Aug 22, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> It does appear that this particular location is holding its value OK, although I'm sure that the resale prices shown are above what the final prices are.  http://www.sellmytimesharenow.com/t.../search_sell/Operation/5/SearchResortID/9425/


Those prices are not "resale prices." They are "asking prices" & I doubt that any of these units will actually sell in today's market.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 22, 2010)

So you bought a timeshare for day-use privileges only, which will likely go away on the whim of the developer or management.  The reason is so you can chill at the resort until traffic is better, when coming down in the evening after skiing?  $11K for that purpose?  

How about a shopping mall and nice leisurely dinner instead?   

I hope you can always use your day use privileges, because if they build 100 units and promise all 100 X 50 people that same day use, you are competing for that space with 5K people (actually more, because most ownerships seem to be for every-other-year).  

This company is marketing heavily in the Denver area, and their sales pitch is this ability to park and use the resort.


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2010)

Karen G said:


> Those prices are not "resale prices." They are "asking prices" & I doubt that any of these units will actually sell in today's market.



This website shows the price when one sells - none of these weeks are moving at these prices.  It's not a good sign that so many owners are trying to dump this property already.


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## billymach4 (Aug 22, 2010)

You have the most experienced timeshare owners on the planet giving you some real world advice. 

Heed the call to rescind!


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 22, 2010)

Karen G said:


> Those prices are not "resale prices." They are "asking prices" & I doubt that any of these units will actually sell in today's market.



This is correct.  This company doesn't put a value timeshares.  They ask the people what they want to get from their units, and then they list them for that price.  They charge $499 for the privilege of listing a timeshare on the site.  Timeshare is so full of scams, from the developer, to upfront-fee ad companies, to postcard companies.


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## JPinCO (Aug 22, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I know so many locals here in the Denver area that have been invited to these presentations at Grand Peak Lodge, including our daughter-in-law's parents, and the day-use they promise is VERY LIMITED, and when the sales department leaves the resort, that use can be ended at any time.
> 
> If everyone they sell in Denver-Boulder gets promised this day use, consider the numbers of people you are competing against on a weekly basis for those parking spots.
> 
> ...



I'm not asking for anyone to tell me what a smart purchase I made (and haven't made yet, actually). Only I can put a price on that convenience, and that's why I'm looking for advice outside of that decision. I might be putting a value to that convenience that probably others wouldn't find rational. That's fine. And respectfully - Frisco isn't ski in/out and you probably can't stop in and shower on the way back from biking in Grand Junction on any given day. To me, those things have a value outside of a week in the blue season. Sorry it's not worth anything right now, but I don't think it's apples to apples either. And if we do decide to bail, I'm not going to cry about it either.

So as for your Denver friends - what specifically are their regrets? They don't use it enough? What are restrictions are they running into? Are they regretting it because they've decided to resell and can't? It sounds like they made a decision based on similar circumstances, so that kind of information is very useful.


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## AwayWeGo (Aug 22, 2010)

*Your Money.  Your Decision.*




JPinCO said:


> I might be putting a value to that convenience that probably others wouldn't find rational.


If you do decide to spring for a full-freight timeshare from a timeshare company, be sure to let us all know how that works out for ya. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2010)

> And if we do decide to bail, I'm not going to cry about it either.



How are you going to bail?

1)  You can't sell a timeshare unless it's paid off in full
2)  Just on that one website there were 70 units for sale - not a good sign
3)  If you go through with this, you will be stuck with this timeshare until you pay it off, and give it away.  
4)  Off-season ski resort weeks have no resale value - you will be lucky to give it away.

We have people come to TUG every day that bought a timeshare at full-price, and then regret it.  They can't believe that they can sell it, or give it back to the developer, and that they are really stuck with the payments and maintenance fees forever.  There is no bailing!


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 22, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> So as for your Denver friends - what specifically are their regrets? They don't use it enough? What are restrictions are they running into? Are they regretting it because they've decided to resell and can't? It sounds like they made a decision based on similar circumstances, so that kind of information is very useful.



They realize there is not that much value in day privileges, which are LIMITED.  

And are you sure the maintenance fees are correct?  Because another TUG guest said she was told what her maintenance fees would be, then when she got the bill, it was quite a bit more.


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## falmouth3 (Aug 22, 2010)

RickandCindy23 not only knows timeshares, Cindy owns a number of timeshares, is on the board at a Colorado timeshare, and her comments should be taken as someone who is an authority for the Denver area.

BTW, you can't just walk away from a TS, you will be on the hook for the maintenance fees until some other individual takes it off your hands.  We have even seen someone offering $500 to anyone willing take a TS that they can't sell - it was *free* *plus closing costs were included*.  And even then, no one was taking the bait.  That's what you may be trying to do in a few years.


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## billymach4 (Aug 22, 2010)

Cut the Debate. Just Rescind.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 22, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> And respectfully - Frisco isn't ski in/out and you probably can't stop in and shower on the way back from biking in Grand Junction on any given day. To me, those things have a value outside of a week in the blue season. Sorry it's not worth anything right now, but I don't think it's apples to apples either. And if we do decide to bail, I'm not going to cry about it either.



Really? You bought a blue week, not a ski week.  Keep that in mind, when you make your decision.  And consider the sales department is using their day-use privileges as a sales tool, to get locals to buy.  That is why they are selling to thousands of people.  They even promise that to blue week owners.  Think of how the red week owners are going to feel, when they are told there is no availability for next week to park and use the facilities, when they paid $45K for their ski week.  The rule could change to ski week owners only at any time.  

No, you are correct, we don't have day-use privileges at our resort.  That was not the big marketing strategy back when we bought the week.  We own several weeks at our Frisco resort and love our fixed rotating summer weeks, and will especially enjoy our fixed rotating ski week this year, which will be weeks 52 and 53.   I bought that one on ebay.


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2010)

Here is more info. about this resort from previous discussions - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...s.com&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=


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## JPinCO (Aug 22, 2010)

By "bailing", I meant rescinding in the next 48 hours. 

The fees are written in the contract, but I guess I'll look a little harder. 

I still would like to know why those Denver folks felt that the privileges are limited. There's another user on this forum that bought last year and used it 5 times over the last season by just calling in 7 days in advance. 

Man- this is a bleak picture you guys are painting. I guess now I'm wondering why the heck anyone would take on any timeshare whatsoever?


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## AwayWeGo (Aug 22, 2010)

*Luxury Vacation Accommodations At Motel 6 & Super 8 Rates.*




JPinCO said:


> I'm wondering why the heck anyone would take on any timeshare whatsoever?


It works out OK for us -- but only (a) because we bought resale for nickels (or less) on the full-freight dollar & (b) because we like traveling last-minute & off-season, which fits best with RCI _Last Call_ & _Instant Exchange_ timeshare reservations. 

For the whole story (more than most folks would care to know), click here.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## falmouth3 (Aug 22, 2010)

I bought my first TS on eBay.  It's a 52 week float so I can get the most valuable weeks by calling 1 year in advance.  It cost me $602 plus closing fees.   I bought my second week on eBay.  It cost me $323, including closing fees.  It's an every other year, 52 week float so I also plan ahead and get the highest value week.  When these weeks get deposited for exchange, I get good weeks in exchange.  Both of these TS are 2 BR.  I have no complaints, and I can get good weeks and good exchanges.  I would not buy a fixed week unless it was in the highest value week - either to me, or to renters or exchangers.  If I can't sell, at least I'm sure that I could give those weeks to someone.

Day privileges are of no use to me so I can't comment on that feature that you find most interesting.  

I'm actually a happy TS owner, as is everyone who has responded to you, but we also recognize good and bad deals and good and bad value. 

Sue


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> Man- this is a bleak picture you guys are painting. I guess now I'm wondering why the heck anyone would take on any timeshare whatsoever?



Almost all of us were in your position at one time (bought resale) and learned the hard way.

An educated consumer can have great low-cost vacations with timesharing, but there is a steep learning curve.

99.9% of the time, buying from the developer is a big mistake.

I own 7 weeks - all but one bought resale.  The most I paid resale was $1,500 and that was for a ocean front unit in Hawaii that we use every year.  By buying resales with low maintenance fees and renting the weeks we can't use, we timeshare for free - we have no yearly costs. 

It's a GREAT way to vacation - but you can't get there buying from the developer and you need to do your homework for at least 6 mos. before you buy.  There are MANY options and a lot to learn - there is no "one fits all" with timesharing, so you have to do your research.  We can help you with that.

Good luck!


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## Passepartout (Aug 22, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> By "bailing", I meant rescinding in the next 48 hours.....
> 
> I guess now I'm wondering why the heck anyone would take on any timeshare whatsoever?



Many of us bought our timeshares before the economic difficulties of the last 3-4 years. They were worth something. Always a better deal at resale than from developer, but something anyway.

Now we all see the increasing MF's, the exchange companies renting out the cream of the weeks at prices lower than MFs and see that we actually have to pay someone to take these off our hands. If we could sell what we have we could rent the same units for less they cost to own without the commitment. The only TSs worth keeping are prime weeks at resorts we can use.

You've been given the best information from the most experienced owners there are. It's up to you to use it. 

Best wishes and welcome to TUG.

Jim Ricks


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## JPinCO (Aug 22, 2010)

OK- I get it. If I have to assume that day-use deal will likely be gone in 3 years once build-out is done, and the property isn't likely to be worth anything once we want to exit, then it's probably too risky. Glad I went to find the info as early as possible. If I could get them to guarantee the facilities use, it *might* be worth it in the long run, but I'm guessing that since they didn't include the Membership Plan Rules and Regulations, that I should take that as a bad sign.


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## DeniseM (Aug 22, 2010)

If it's not in writing - you have no guarantee.  Even if it is in writing, it probably also says that it can be changed down the road by the Board of Directors.  Good luck!


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## JPinCO (Aug 22, 2010)

Found the Membership Plan online. Here's the text:

R





> ESORT PRIVILEGES
> 1. Resort Privileges of the Project property and its amenities is available only to
> Club Members and their immediate family as defined as children and parents. Project amenities include the swimming pools, hot tubs, owners’ lounges, locker rooms, and exercise and spa facilities.
> *Resort Privileges will be limited based on availability and capacity*.


 [emphasis mine]

I should assume that that could eventually mean that, at some point, availability and capacity during the ski season is "at capacity" and unavailable.


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## glypnirsgirl (Aug 22, 2010)

> It does appear that this particular location is holding its value OK, although I'm sure that the resale prices shown are above what the final prices are. http://www.sellmytimesharenow.com/ti...ResortID/9425/


Those are asking prices, not sales prices. Look again at the right hand side and see how many state that the price is negotiable. 

I looked around, but could not find anyway for searching for completed sales. Units that actually SOLD for a price. How much was that asking price negotiated to make a sale?

What you have here that you are using to bolster your argument that the units are holding their value is a list of units for sale. Sales price does not equal SOLD price. 

So, to reiterate Denise's post, if you are happy to pay 11K for your unit with the expectation that day use privileges will be difficult to get in the future, that you will not be able to sell your unit at ANY PRICE so that you are stuck with it forever AND you will be obligated to continue to pay your maintenance fees which WILL increase, and with all of those factors taken into consideration, it still looks like a good deal to you for the parking spot, then you should make the purchase.

If you are making the purchase with any other assumptions, you are going to be disappointed.

elaine


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## scrapngen (Aug 22, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> Found the Membership Plan online. Here's the text:
> 
> R [emphasis mine]
> 
> I should assume that that could eventually mean that, at some point, availability and capacity during the ski season is "at capacity" and unavailable.



You got it. 

And, frankly, if that many people are already trying to sell their TS's at this resort so soon after being given the same pitch you were, I'd say they have already found out that their purchase was not as great as they initially thought. I am sure it is working for some people for now, but I also suspect that the day parking, while extremely useful, is a gimmick that will not work for you as promised by the salespeople. Look, everyone here will wish you well if you decide to stick to your purchase, but they are giving you good advice based on your questions. You are not really a unique case, even if you think so. There have been other special unique items only available at a certain resort. (Golf packages, water park, hotel pool use privileges all  come to mind...)  You have even heard from someone in your area who has a lot of experience and knowledge on many different levels. Take some time to research different options. It is a lot of money up front, and even more owed yearly regardless of whether the parking is available or not. The week in its season is the only sure thing you will get over time, and it sounds like it is not worth very much - even to you! The resort will not be sold out any time soon, so you can always come back and buy after more research. Maybe take this ski season to talk with owners or even sellers at this property. Just a thought...


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## Jaybee (Aug 22, 2010)

Wow!  I kept reading, and being more and more astounded. We bought 3 timeshares at full pop many years ago, and I was so happy to find Tug.
You guys have such great advice, right on target, and making total sense, and this person obviously does NOT want to be talked out of a really unnecessary expense.  Apparently you experienced owners are not as good as selling an idea as the professional sales barracudas are. Too bad.  I'd have given a lot to have had this advice at the beginning.


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## siesta (Aug 22, 2010)

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

:deadhorse:


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## timeos2 (Aug 22, 2010)

*Fee amounts are not in the documents*



JPinCO said:


> By "bailing", I meant rescinding in the next 48 hours.
> 
> The fees are written in the contract, but I guess I'll look a little harder.



One of the few things written in contracts that aren't binding are any amount for the annual fees. In fact I'll bet its not in the contract but in the closing documents that should say what the current year fees will be (and most likely charge you for it) but not what they will be even next year as that number will be set in the next budget by the Board.  It is seldom known more than a few months ahead of time.


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## Cheryl20772 (Aug 22, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> with no equity or tax considerations.



Oh please forget about any equity.  Ten years ago we sunk tens of thousands into TS after a salesman told us it was an investment.  He reminded us it is deeded property and real estate continually appreciates.  Our children would be able to inherit real deeded property and a lifetime of vacations from us.  

Now we finally see the reality of what we have.  Real estate does not necessarily continually increase in value.  Our children will inherit from us a somewhat complicated vacation system with an annual tax and maintenance fee obligation.  They might not be able to afford these (now escalated from back when we purchased) fees on their New Economy incomes.  We can already see that they are not now interested in vacationing in resorts.  

Buying a TS from the developer is worse than buying a new car.  At least a new car retains some of its value when you drive it off the lot.  A TS can sometimes be found going for $1 on Ebay the day after it is purchased.  In some situations, owners have trouble finding someone to take the TS obligation off their hands when they offer to pay all expenses of the transfer.  

You think your family will continue to use the TS and the day use is alluring.  What happens if, Heaven forbid, someone in the family gets sick or loses a job?  

How much are these annual Real Estate taxes you will be getting an ongoing tax credit for?

If you decide not to rescind, then welcome to our forum.  Please share our wealth of knowledge and add what you learn.  For your family with your desire for day use, this may be the decisions right for you.  At least you have been given a look at all sides of this; so you can make the best decision that can be made for you.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 23, 2010)

siesta said:


> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
> 
> :deadhorse:



More aptly, you can lead a man to data but you can't make him think.

It sounds to me as if our OP is seriously considering spending ~$11,000 + associated annual fees to buy something that will have zero (if not negative) value the minute he takes possession, all for the sake of getting revocable day use privileges.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 23, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> OK- I get it. If I have to assume that day-use deal will likely be gone in 3 years once build-out is done, and the property isn't likely to be worth anything once we want to exit, then it's probably too risky. Glad I went to find the info as early as possible. If I could get them to guarantee the facilities use, it *might* be worth it in the long run, but I'm guessing that since they didn't include the Membership Plan Rules and Regulations, that I should take that as a bad sign.



Is there a "day use" deal IN THE CONTRACT?  I should ask our friends, too, but if it's not in the contract, it's just a promise by the sales staff that will last as long as they last....

When our friends found out we bought our dream timeshare on ebay for $152.50 + $549 in closing costs, they were so disappointed in their own purchase.  That was our last ebay purchase: a week at Val Chatelle in Frisco, 3 bedrooms, 2 1/2 baths, full-sized washer and dryer, hot tub on the deck of each unit, etc.  They stayed there before, so they were very impressed that we found a ski week.  The units where we own are being sold as wholly owned for $400K in Frisco, but the timeshares are going for $152.50 per week.  So much for the value of timeshare as "real estate." 

We bought our first blue week at Val Chatelle, from the developer, back in 1983 for $3,750.  That was a lot of money back then.  We could have bought a decent new car, so I know of what I speak...


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## DeniseM (Aug 23, 2010)

Cindy - see his response about this in post #46 - it is very vague.  (Not his post - the usage terms.)


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 23, 2010)

An added thought.  

You might want to look closely at the financial statements and see if the developer is subsidizing annual fees. 

*****

Our first purchase, which we rescinded, was at the Marriott Kauai Beach Club back in 1999.  We had no intention of purchasing, and were sold.

Being the somewhat retentive type that I am, I actually spent time back in our hotel room reviewing the paperwork that they gave us.  When I looked at the financial statements I noted that there was a subsidy by Marriott for resort annual fees.  If I took out that subsidy, those $650 annual fees that we were looking at were more more like $1000.

We had a variety or reasons for rescinding, one of which was that subsidy.  Looking at the resort property, I simply couldn't see how annual fees at the resort could be essentially the same as other timeshares on Kauai that had to have much lower expenses.

About three or four years later the resort sold out, and Marriott shut down the sales office.  With no more sales, Marriott eliminated the subsidy, and timeshare owners saw their annual fees jump by about $500.  With fee increases that had occurred since we bought and rescinded, that unit with $650 annual fees that we were shown now had annual fees of more than $1500.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 23, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Cindy - see his response about this in post #46 - it is very vague.  (Not his post - the usage terms.)


Thanks, Denise, I did go back and read the post on the contract wording.  Very vague, and no promise of availability.  

I can see the ski week owners having fits because they paid $45K and others are using their facilities without paying the high cost of owning ski weeks, and the board members will be the high-dollar owners, too.  Plus, if a person with a 3 bedroom unit has more than one car, that automatically takes a parking space out of the picture.  It's a sales pitch for the locals, that's for sure.  

So many people being sold this feature....


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## billymach4 (Aug 23, 2010)

The cynical side of me is thinking that the OP might me a schill?


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## theo (Aug 23, 2010)

*I don't think so, myself...*



billymach4 said:


> The cynical side of me is thinking that the OP might me a schill?



I don't share that particular belief, but I am nonetheless a bit perplexed that the OP seems  unable (and /or unwilling) to fully grasp and accept that he is actually considering paying $11k today for something he likely couldn't sell on eBay for a buck tomorrow and which (at virtually anytime, at developer whim) may cease to offer the "day use" privileges on which he is apparently so focused.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 23, 2010)

We have so many friends who have attended timeshare sales presentations and purchased from the developer, and it doesn't matter that they know we bought an oceanfront Maui week for less than $1,600 (and $1,100 of that amount was resort transfer fees to Consolidated Resorts of $550 for each EOY week to make it annual use), or that we bought our ski week for $700, in the resort we love.  They are dazzled by the presentations, and they tell us well after the rescind period, too, so we are never able to help them rescind.  Often, these friends have big regrets.  

Even my aunt bought a timeshare from Wyndham, and she has heard us talk so many times about our wonderful timeshare experiences, but we neglected to tell her about resale, or she would have gone that direction, too, because she is frugal and very much like me in that respect.  She is only 2 1/2 years older than I, so we have always been more like sisters, and she really regrets not calling me from the sales table to ask what she should do. 

 I started warning everyone about buying from the develper after that incident, and now I feel like a broken record.  But how do you warn people without sounding like a timeshare addict.  :rofl: My kids tell me I get a little ridiculous with the timeshare talk, which is mostly to warn people, so they don't make a mistake like this.  

When day-use privileges are gone at Peak 7, what do you have left?  A blue week, when kids are in school, and the trading power of that week will be dismal with II.  Plus, I was able to get our son and his friends 3 ski weeks this season, two at the resorts right there in Breck: including one at Gold Point for mid-March in a 3 bedroom unit.  Same developer, bigger units, and this was Josh's and his friends' favorite unit, though it's older.  

They really loved the size of the unit and the location to the slopes.  They also stayed at Grand Timber in a 3 bedroom, too, and they liked it okay, but it wasn't as quiet there for sleeping. They liked that it was newer and really nicely furnished and a bit more upgraded because it was newer.  Gold Point is probably ready for a refurb, and I sure hope they have the funds to accomplish that refurb; otherwise, there's going to be a special assessment.  That week at GT was at the end of January (Brrrr).  These trades were with Foxrun summer weeks, so the total cost was $630 maintenance fees + $139 exchange fee.   Josh is on our II account, so no guest certificate necessary.... 

The third exchange for last winter was at Lakeside Terrace with a Sheraton Broadway Plantation, in the preference period for Starwood owners.  I got a two bedroom ski week with a 1 bed studio side.  I was very pleased with the cost of that one.


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## bogey21 (Aug 23, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> ......our last ebay purchase: a week at Val Chatelle in Frisco, 3 bedrooms, 2 1/2 baths.......... The units where we own are being sold as wholly owned for $400K in Frisco, but the timeshares are going for $152.50 per week.  So much for the value of timeshare as "real estate."


*Fabulous buy!!!  Back when I used to take my kids sking we always tried to stay at Val Chatelle.  Not only did we love the units; we loved the town of Frisco; and we loved the location of Frisco, sort of central to Keystone, Breckenridge and Copper Mountain.

George*


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## AwayWeGo (Aug 23, 2010)

*Shill, Schmyll.*




billymach4 said:


> The cynical side of me is thinking that the OP might me a schill?


Never happen. 

I mean, what success could any shill expect from touting full-freight timeshares on TUG-BBS ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## kasteer (Aug 23, 2010)

To OP... 

I just paid $500 ($1 winning bid and $499 closing fees) TOTAL for a red week at a gold crown resort in Daytona Beach... resale.  MFs are only $492.  Deals are out there.  

Also, have you called the resort front desk and asked them about day use priviledges?  They might tell you that ANY owner has day use priviledges, which would mean you can buy resale and still have priv there.

My question... How many times can you go to this, or any, resort for $11,000 (plus yearly MF) versus being an owner there???  If you bought a resale unit for say $1,000, with owner priviledges, what else can you do with that $10,000?


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 23, 2010)

I was looking at old threads on Peak 7 and discovered the only people posting on TUG that have purchased there were Colorado residents.  That tells me that the marketing to Denver-Boulder-Colorado Springs is huge.  

One lady that lives north of me in Erie, directly East of Lafayette (so close to you, actually), bought a week at Peak 7 and posted her dismay about the fees she paid, which weren't as the salesperson promised.  I talked to her on the phone, because it was a local call, and she was so upset that they purchased an off-season week, which would have poor trading power through II, as she discovered.  I tried to find that thread, which I believe was about a year ago.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 23, 2010)

bogey21 said:


> *Fabulous buy!!!  Back when I used to take my kids sking we always tried to stay at Val Chatelle.  Not only did we love the units; we loved the town of Frisco; and we loved the location of Frisco, sort of central to Keystone, Breckenridge and Copper Mountain.
> 
> George*



Thanks for saying that!  George, I am so glad I saw the week before you!  It's a unit we will use most years.  The kids are all anxious to use it this year.  We are so happy to own such a great week, but the weeks are on a fixed rotating schedule, changing every three weeks, so next week it's week 3, the next is week 6, the next is week 9, then week 12, etc., and it's a ski rotating week, so it doesn't rotate to any week not ski season.  We feel very fortunate because exchanging back into the resort was not easy.  The hot tub on the outside deck is such a wonderful thing after a long day.


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## timeos2 (Aug 23, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Thanks, Denise, I did go back and read the post on the contract wording.  Very vague, and no promise of availability.
> 
> I can see the ski week owners having fits because they paid $45K and others are using their facilities without paying the high cost of owning ski weeks, and the board members will be the high-dollar owners, too.  Plus, if a person with a 3 bedroom unit has more than one car, that automatically takes a parking space out of the picture.  It's a sales pitch for the locals, that's for sure.
> 
> So many people being sold this feature....



Based on that language alone you can be sure that if the resort has a high (80, 90 - some relatively high number) occupancy then the day use privileges would be suspended until the in house utilization dropped.  For the very reasons you mention. You cannot tell your prime week buyer they don't have a parking spot because a blue week owner is there for the day.  

The feature will only be honored when its convenient for the resort and may or may not be totally revocable in the future. I sure wouldn't risk $11K for it.


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## pkyorkbeach (Aug 23, 2010)

TISK TISK
I really wish the person would listen to the wisdom of everyone on the TUG forum.. It is possible the salesman pitched the timeshare so well that they are believing them and not Tug members.

It will be a lesson learned...


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## AwayWeGo (Aug 23, 2010)

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




pkyorkbeach said:


> It is possible the salesman pitched the timeshare so well that they are believing them and not Tug members.


That's approximately what I was trying to say. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## DeniseM (Aug 23, 2010)

Based on his last few posts, I believe he is going to rescind, so let's not beat him up too much, K?   

At one point, most of us drank the Kool Aide, too!  (ME! )


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## pkyorkbeach (Aug 23, 2010)

Great
that would be good news
I hope they do listen, then as time goes on they will feel better and understand more about timesharing...

It is like buying a new car or a new home-educate yourself and learn before you buy....


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 23, 2010)

I am also guilty of buying from the developer, but now I know better.  There were two original developer purchases in the early 80's.  Now I can get the same thing for free, in both cases.  Both were overpriced and sold as the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Oh how we all regret those purchases.  

Trying to keep someone else from making a mistake seems to be the only right thing to do.  

But as Alan always says, "So it goes." 

 You cannot un-sell the person who is really "sold" on the sales pitch, however pie-in-the-sky that pitch is.


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## JPinCO (Aug 23, 2010)

For clarity: 

*I am rescinding.* Going to the post office in a few minutes to send a certified letter (Thank you Denise for the link to instructions). I'm not convinced that the day use privileges are secure. 

That being said - since this is a community dedicated to actual use/exchange of timeshares (overwhelmingly re-sales), maybe this forum isn't generally open to the appeal to the day use aspect. You guys actually use the vacation time, and that's great. The idea of focusing the Resort Privileges shouldn't be so outlandish to people who spend a couple of thousand to buy a membership to a Golf Club, with a couple thousand in annual dues, plus restaurant & guest fees, etc. Plenty of folks pay $5K to 10K a year to play <50 rounds of golf a year. My father in law is one of them. If we could use the facilities 20-30 times a year as a family for 15 years, and not worry about "capacity" or those rights being revoked or further restricted - then it would still be appealing to my family. (Whoever brought up the fact that our week is during school brought up a very good point - something I didn't really consider since my oldest isn't yet three).

It does also concern me that, in 17 years when our youngest goes to college and we no longer use it, that the annual MFs have risen x00% and we can't get rid of it. So, off to USPS.

For further discussion (and for others that might run across this thread in the future), here's the email I sent to our sales agent yesterday, with his answers in blue italics. Of course, he said he was also an owner. And no, I don't believe any of this; but I thought you all might find it interesting.



> I was looking through the paperwork this morning, and I need to get a little clarification on the Resort Privileges. My buddy, a realtor, asked me if the Resort Privileges were guaranteed year-round after the build-out was complete. As you know, that's a big reason we signed the deal. So I guess we need to know a few answers: _Yes, you will always have day use privileges. _
> 
> 1) What exactly are the regulations regarding year-round Resort Privileges? I couldn't find the Membership Plan or Rules in the packet - can you please forward that?  _You have everything in your owners packet.  Plus you have the Certificate from the developer which I signed._ [Note- not in the packet]
> 
> ...



Thanks to everyone who took the time to read my posts and offered sincere and needed advice.


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## glypnirsgirl (Aug 23, 2010)

What a load !!! 

So glad you did not believe it. 

elaine


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## DeniseM (Aug 23, 2010)

JPinCO said:


> That being said - since this is a community dedicated to actual use/exchange of timeshares (overwhelmingly re-sales), maybe this forum isn't generally open to the appeal to the day use aspect.



If the day use was guaranteed for all eternity and the rules were set in stone, that would be one thing, but as your found out - they aren't.  In fact you have zero guarantees that you will have day use in the future.  I'm sure you wouldn't buy into a country club where they could take away your usage at any time, but still require you to pay the fees for all eternity...

Why were we suspicious?  Because most of us have already been down this road with our own timeshares.  We know that the board of directors can and will change the rules.  In fact, management at my ridiculously expensive Maui TS just decided that even owners can no longer put in a room request!

BTW - saying that all owners get a say in all decisions was BS - it's the BOD's decision plain and simple.  If you have 5 ski week owners on the BOD and the day users are infringing on their use of ski season, what do you think would happen?  And it would all be perfectly legal!

Congrats on rescinding!


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## siesta (Aug 23, 2010)

what an epic thread.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 23, 2010)

I was looking at the pure numbers of the day-use availability.  If they had ten spots each week, and you are competing with hundreds of owners each and every week, the chances are minimal of getting a week.  If they were marketing outside of the state more than they appear to be, that would give locals a better chance at day use.  

I can see the ski week owners being buddy-buddy with the salesman and having him reserving the day use ahead of others, simply because the ski week owner paid more.  I think our DIL's parents were quoted pretty high for a ski week.


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## pkyorkbeach (Aug 23, 2010)

Great that you are rescinding


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## carl2591 (Aug 23, 2010)

Folks if this guy/gal dont get it with all the replys there are two things that came to mind.

1. it a plant poster,, must likely from Wyndham trying to do something ?? or

2 this person is better off paying the full price and suffering the consensus if what everyone is telling them can/will happen, does happen down the road.. 

like the poster above.. you are beating a dead horse here.. let it go....



WOW i see they saw the light.. nice.. now learn how to work the system.. read here for the next couple months and see what the real deal on timeshare is..


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## DeniseM (Aug 23, 2010)

Boys and Girls - HE RESCINDED ALREADY!  :rofl:


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## 89MustangGX (Aug 23, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I was looking at the pure numbers of the day-use availability.  If they had ten spots each week, and you are competing with hundreds of owners each and every week, the chances are minimal of getting a week.  If they were marketing outside of the state more than they appear to be, that would give locals a better chance at day use.
> 
> I can see the ski week owners being buddy-buddy with the salesman and having him reserving the day use ahead of others, simply because the ski week owner paid more.  I think our DIL's parents were quoted pretty high for a ski week.



I understand the OP is already rescinding, but I think it would benefit future searchers to put some real numbers out here.

Let's say there are -- 50 units. And 1/2 are bi-annual and 1/2 are annual owners. That means there are approximately 3900 owners (50 bi-annual and 25 annual * 52 weeks). If we figure conservative and say only 1/4 of the owners want to use their Day Use privledges and park at the resort, that means there are almost 1000 people all competing for those parking spots! And if there are 100 units that number doubles!

Seems like it won't be long before day use goes away -- unless they are planning a REALLY big parking lot.

Adam


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## jbschube (Aug 30, 2010)

*Alternative to Think About....*

JPinCo,

I was in the exact same spot as you about 2 months ago.  I live in Denver and have 2 children, 4 and 6.  The Grand Lodge is absolutely beautiful and the location on Peak 7 is just about as good as it gets.  My wife and I sat through a presentation and we're presented the exact same fall/spring timeshare....and we actually thought about it simply for the day use privileges.  Given that our skiing is going to increase significantly over the next few years now that the kids are getting older, the day use portion offers a huge benefit...and Grand Lodge knows that.  Anyway, long story short, after several hours we finally decided not to pay 12K upfront and walked away.  (We did waste $995 to keep the option to buy open....simply because we didn't want to make an emotional decision at the time.)

I researched the Grand Lodge on the resale side of things.  However, they closed the loophole and restricted "club membership" activities unless the timeshare was purchased through the Grand Lodge.  Yes, prices were significantly lower.

So....the salesperson that showed us the Grand Lodge kept referring to their other project in Breckenridge, the Grand Timber Lodge.  It's probably 13 years old, but well maintained and considered 5 stars....at least by the lodge themselves.  For exchange sakes, it's rated premier on II.  Anyway, my wife and I are looking to visit the GTL with the intent to purchase a timeshare in the secondary market.  They have the same club membership benefits provided by the Grand Lodge.  I'm looking specifically for the day use and the bonus days.  GTL has ski in/ski out access to the mountain between peak 8 and peak 9.  It's not as convenient as the Grand Lodge, but it can definitely work as a pretty good alternative.  Plus, just looking at the resale listings....you will save a ton of upfront $$$$.  Anyway, just a thought.


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 30, 2010)

An off-season week will still trade poorly in II, no matter that it's Premiere.  At 59 days or less, you can get great stuff, but planning ahead would be difficult.  

I am not as inclined to be impressed with a blue/ green week, owning one that is very limited in trade value.  Our week is in Frisco.  

If you are going to buy, choose ski or summer, which will trade well.  By the way, it's easy to get exchanges in Colorado for summer, but ski is more difficult.  But it's not impossible with a good trader.


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## JPinCO (Aug 30, 2010)

jbschube-

Thanks for the info- I actually came to the same conclusion about Grand Timber as well & have been doing some research about how they arrange those day use reservations, etc. I think we're going to take the advice of this Forum and take a few months to look closely at prices; and learn more about exchanges, etc for that property.  Then maybe we'll make a move in the next year or so at Grand Timber - our kids are on the very young side of the age to start skiing, so we probably are jumping the gun anyway.

You mentioned touring the GTL before buying on the resale market - just making sure you know about the clause in their Disclosures: http://www.baughan.com/htm/files/disclose.htm (it's the most up-to-date I could find). Note "Q. RESALE OF PROPERTY"


> If you toured Grand Timber Lodge but made your purchase of timeshare at Grand Timber Lodge through a resale program, club member benefits are not transferable.



That means if they have a record of your having done a TS presentation at GTL, you cannot have club benefits transferred to you. I'm not sure if the resort resale office counts; but I wouldn't go near it just in case. And I'm pretty sure you must buy from an original owner to get those privileges too -I've made some inquiries about this, and I think I wouldn't risk buying a bankruptcy court-owned property as a result. I think I will make a direct inquiry to the Resort before I close on any purchase, to make sure that that specific deed had those benefits still intact. Something to consider, if you haven't already.   

Right now there are three on eBay: 
http://tinyurl.com/2bftudz
http://tinyurl.com/25nmvu5
http://tinyurl.com/289qc2r
Certainly looks way cheaper in comparison to GL7, but part of what I need to do is get a sense of what's a good deal and what isn't; so I'll just be watching to see what these go for rather than jumping the shark again. Plus I need to figure out if I should wait / pay more for a 3BR, etc. 

Cindy - definitely ruling out off-season. Summer might make sense given school, etc; in case we use it rather than trade it.  I'm a bit surprised to hear you say  that ski weeks are harder to trade, though. I guess it's a smaller pool of enthusiasts (skiers) as opposed to Floridians and Arizonans trying to escape the heat? 

Thanks again to this community- y'all saved me $$$$!


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 30, 2010)

> Cindy - definitely ruling out off-season. Summer might make sense given school, etc; in case we use it rather than trade it. I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that ski weeks are harder to trade, though. I guess it's a smaller pool of enthusiasts (skiers) as opposed to Floridians and Arizonans trying to escape the heat?



I wasn't clear and am always guilty at that.  Ski season is hard to get when you are trying to exchange in, but ski is great for trading out to other resorts.  Some of the best traders are prime ski weeks. 

We have some traders that do well exchanging into Colorado ski weeks through II, but the opportunities are few and far between, so we pretty much take what we can get.  An ongoing search is always a great idea, for ski weeks.


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## Jaybee (Aug 30, 2010)

This whole scenario has brought up a question in my mind, too, about the day use privileges.  We are platinum members at Lawrence Welk, and have always had day use ability, though we've never used it.  We don't play golf much anymore, but figured we might try it again one of these days.  
We were at Escondido last week,in a villa, and went up to Mtn.Villas so the kids could use the pool & slide. They've now opened that up to all who are staying on the Welk property.  That was on Monday morning, and it was jammed...and that is a huge pool/play area.  
I don't know how many day users they have, but I've heard quite a few buy there just for the golf privileges. I've never seen the golf courses very crowded, but it makes me wonder if they will continue to offer the day use for the pools.  I guess my mind is just meandering..We'd never thought about it before.


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## Mel (Sep 2, 2010)

When Orange Lake was first being sold, day use was written into the contracts.  Many years later, they created the Clemmons Wilson Club ( or some similar name), and offered membership as a premium for purchase from the resort - in effect owners of older deeds were grandfathered in, and are able to transfer membership with their deed, while I don't think newer owners can.  This is a trick we've seen many resorts use to bolster the value of purchasing from the developer.  But it's all smoke and mirrors, because if you think about it, they're devaluing your property immediately, because you can't resell the whole package - so much for your "investment."

For those looking at resales, you have to read the contracts carefully - just because the resort has changed policy doesn't change the rights of the original owners.  If they had day-use rights written into their contract, and their contract stipulates that the day-use can be transferred, that stays with the deed.  The resort can't take that away, though they will try to convince you they can.  Purchasing for Day Use is a valid reason for purchasing a timeshare, but it still must be done in an intelligent way - resale is still the best bet.


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## cpcat (Feb 3, 2011)

*Great thread*

I'm going out to GP7 with my family April 2-9 through an II exchange.  I'm going (voluntarily) to a presentation on Wed---primarily to take advantage of discounted lift passes.  Don't worry, I won't get sucked into anything.  Reading over this site the past several days has been very educating (and enjoyable! ).

An interesting thought occurred to me though:  What would happen if _no one _bought from developers?


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## siesta (Feb 4, 2011)

cpcat said:


> An interesting thought occurred to me though:  What would happen if _no one _bought from developers?


Then me and you wouldn't have resales to buy.  but most people that buy don't find tug or other resources until it's too late if at all, so enjoy the resales.


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## Holly (Feb 4, 2011)

We won't go back to Lawrence Welk because of the day use.  When we were there it was unbelieveable...multi-generations of families were there with big coolers and big picnics.  Apparently during the summer lots of locals use it as their private pool/day camp. 

We met one family whose cousin owned the timeshare and they had like 12 people there.  They said that they were there 3-4 days a week during the summer.  We met another group of college-age kids that were partying at the pool in the evening.  There were six of them and they had coolers of beer and had burgers on the grill and said that they came there on weekends, as they lived 20 minutes away and used LW as their "country club".  

The kids activities were packed and half of the kids were locals.





Jaybee said:


> This whole scenario has brought up a question in my mind, too, about the day use privileges.  We are platinum members at Lawrence Welk, and have always had day use ability, though we've never used it.  We don't play golf much anymore, but figured we might try it again one of these days.
> We were at Escondido last week,in a villa, and went up to Mtn.Villas so the kids could use the pool & slide. They've now opened that up to all who are staying on the Welk property.  That was on Monday morning, and it was jammed...and that is a huge pool/play area.
> I don't know how many day users they have, but I've heard quite a few buy there just for the golf privileges. I've never seen the golf courses very crowded, but it makes me wonder if they will continue to offer the day use for the pools.  I guess my mind is just meandering..We'd never thought about it before.


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