# WorldMark accounts requiring no Housekeeping tokens?



## DaveNV (Jun 24, 2018)

I understand there was a time when WM accounts didn't require a housekeeping token. Nowadays accounts do require one, when booking a reservation.  Is there a name for those older accounts? Is that account benefit something that can be purchased, and how do you look for one?  Does it have a name, or is it luck of the draw?

Dave


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## VacationForever (Jun 24, 2018)

I believe the for sale listings will say NHK.  They are very expensive.  You won't be mistaken as luck of the draw because of the asking price. LOL.


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## tschwa2 (Jun 24, 2018)

As mentioned they usually cost about 5-10's what a non  NHK contract would go for.  Time was if you added a regular contract to a NHK contract the whole thing would become NHK.  If you accidentally added a NHK to a regular contract the NHK was lost.  If you divided up a NHK contract (sold part) the NHK is lost in all but the original.  Most Owners with NHK contracts used the loophole to make  large NHK contracts of 50,000-100,000+ credits or whatever Worldmark would let them max out at.  So it isn't like you will be able to find a 6,000-10,000 contract that cost 5 times.  You would be paying 5-10 X's what the giant contract would go for if it were a regular contract.

There was a limited time and limited selling area where the NHK contracts were sold.  If you research you could probably find the dates and cities.  Maybe you will find a worldmark owner who never joined any forums, has been using their NHK contract and then dies and their children don't know about the worth of the NHK and you might end up with one at a reasonable price but for the most part they have been gobbled up by those who use their accounts for commercial purposes to the extent that the rules of the club allow. For the most part the cost to obtain such an account is more than you would save by not having to worry about HK credits.


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## sun starved Gayle (Jun 24, 2018)

Dave, have you seen this ? I try and book when there is a special like this going on simply to avoid the housekeeping. They usually run another in late December-January. There is usually more inventory then.


Introducing this week’s specials…





Summer Blast!


ALL WorldMark Resorts and Exotics!
Get ready to vacation with Monday Madness! For a limited time, book all your WorldMark resorts and Exotics for just $.08 per credit. To take advantage of this special offer book online by *Sunday, July 15th*.

*Book your Monday Madness for only $.08 a credit!


Housekeeping is included in the rental rate. Sales and Transient Occupancy Taxes, if applicable, will be collected at time of booking.
*


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## DaveNV (Jun 24, 2018)

Thanks, everyone.  If prices are that high, and if it's that specific, I won't bother trying to track one down.  (It seemed like something I might like owning, if I happened to fall into one.)  The housekeeping fees aren't terrible as it is, if booking enough nights to make it worthwhile.  Adding ~$15 a night to the cost of a week's stay isn't that much.  But free is free, right?  

Gayle, yes, I had seen that.  I know those are bargain rates, and having no additional housekeeping fee is a definite plus.  

I'm still finding my way through the maze of WM stuff, trying to sort it all out.  I had to change a few plans I'd made for travel in the next year, and suddenly I have half my 2017 credits back in my account. My anniversary date is August, so now I'm on the verge of having a nearly fully-loaded account back in my hands. About the only thing missing are the housekeeping tokens, which have been already used.  One of these NHK accounts would be nice to have, but it sounds like it's not to be.

Dave


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## rhonda (Jun 24, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> Time was if you added a regular contract to a NHK contract the whole thing would become NHK.


Have policies changed to negate this snippet from your earlier post?  Are we no longer able to increase the size of an existing NHK account by merging a standard/premier account under it?  (I've not been keeping up on WM changes ... sorry ...)

Dave: It seems Wyndham's answer to the legacy non-housekeeping (NHK) was to restore this 'freebie' to buyers willing to shell out for 60k+ TravelShare credits??


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## geist1223 (Jun 24, 2018)

Dave: Have you been spending much time on www.wmowners.com/forum. The site is for owners by owners. No Wyndham involvement.  A lot of your questions will be answered there. The cash options are Monday Madness (right now open to all WM Resorts), Bonus Time, and Inventory Specials.

Monday Madness is 8 cents per Point if done Online and 9 cents if done by calling the VPC or a minimum of $65 per night, whichever is greater. This includes Housekeeping. There may be TOT. Reservation can not be longer than 7 days. Guest usage is permitted. No more than 6 Monday Madnesss Reservation at a time. 11 month Booking Window.

Inventory Specials only at listed Resorts. 6.6 cents per Point with minimum of $65. For you or guest. 60 day Booking Window. Can Book for up to 30 days if available. May have TOT. Can Book up to 30% of a Resort. You can have more than 1 Inventroy Special Reservation. These include Housekeeping. Mostly only during work week but some include weekends.

Bonus Time is 6.6 cents per Point with the $65 per night minimum. This includes Housekeeping. Booking Window of 14 days for Members and 5 days for guests.

There are occasionally Grandfathered NHK Accounts for sale. Typically the Seller is asking for a $10K to $15K premium.

To get the modern NHK Account you have to buy 63K Points from the Developer.

You can still add resell Points to a grandfathered NHK Account. You just have to make sure you do it correctly.


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## DaveNV (Jun 24, 2018)

rhonda said:


> Dave: It seems Wyndham's answer to the legacy non-housekeeping (NHK) was to restore this 'freebie' to buyers willing to shell out for 60k+ TravelShare credits??



Thanks, Rhonda. I hadn't heard that, but I also don't think that Travelshare is anything I'm ever likely to use. I'm having trouble just using the WM credits I already own! 

Dave


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## DaveNV (Jun 24, 2018)

geist1223 said:


> Dave: Have you been spending much time on www.wmowners.com/forum.



I have checked it some, and know I should spend more time there.  I know there's a lot there to learn. What happens is I'll be on Tug looking at something, then I go to the WM site to check something, then back to Tug, and it occurs to me to ask a question.

I wasn't asking because I want or need to use the Bonus Time or whatever right now.  I just remembered about the NHK accounts I'd heard about, and while cruising through eBay's WM auctions, (why, I don't know - I'm not looking to buy more WM right now), it occurred to me that I didn't know if there was a term for one of those NHK accounts. How would I know if what I was seeing might be one of them?

That was sort of like this situation:  I had an agent at WM on the phone the other day rave to me all about using Club Wyndham, about how great a program it was, and how I should take advantage of it, and so on.  She went on and on about it, and got me interested.  After I hung up and went to check my notes, I remembered that since my purchase was resale, I'm not eligible for Club Wyndham.  I had told her I'd bought resale, but she said my account was a Premier account, and that meant it was eligible.  I called back and happened to end up with the same agent.  I told her I didn't think I was eligible, because I didn't buy from WM.  She went to her Supervisor, then came back, all apologetic, saying I was right, and she was wrong.  I still think things should be listed separately on the WM website.  And in this case, their friendly but undereducated agent wasn't much help. 

Dave


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## bizaro86 (Jun 24, 2018)

The club calls these 'grandfathered' accounts. I don't think 5-10x is how they sell, I think it's a straight premium of ~15k.

So a 10k NHK account might be worth 30 cents a credit plus $15k, so $18k total.

A 20k NHK wouldn't be worth twice as much, it would be worth say 30 cents per credit plus $15k, so say $21k total.

That makes sense, since if you buy a NHK you can combine other accounts into it, so the extra credits are only worth what they cost resale for regular credits.

Both the 30 cents and 15k are just estimates,  but the principle is correct.


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## geist1223 (Jun 25, 2018)

This is something I posted on WMOWNERS a while back:

It has been claimed that a Grandfathered No HKC Account has a value of $11K to $14K. Then add additional for the Number Of Points in the Account. Looking at the current House Keeping charges reveals the falling.

1. Studio $66 House Keeping Charge. You would have to stay in a Studio Unit 167 - 212 times to recover the initial investment.
2. 1 Bedroom $87 House Keeping Charge. You would have to stay in a 1 Bedroom Unit 126 - 161 times to recover the initial investment.
3. 2 Bedroom $100 House Keeping Charge. You would have to stay in a 2 Bedroom Unit 110 - 140 times to recover the initial investment.
4. 3 Bedroom $113 House Keeping Charge. You would have to stay in a 3 Bedroom Unit 98 - 124 times to recover the initial investment.
5. 4 Bedroom $150 House Keeping Charge. You would have to stay in a 4 Bedroom Unit 74 - 94 times to recover the initial investment.

Now with a 10,000 Point Grandfathered Account you might be able to make one or two reservations per year but nothing bigger than a 2 Bedroom Unit. So it will take you a high of 167 years to a low of 70 years to recover the initial investment.

So why should anyone be interested in paying a $11K to $14K premium for a Grandfathered Account. I know you can combine other acquired Points into Grandfathered Account. So let's say you spend an additional $27,000 to acquire an Additional 90K Points to end up with a Grandfathered Account of 100K. Remember no more that 1 consolidation per year at a current fee of $299 per consolidation. So let's assume you were able to get the additional 90K Points with only buying 4 Accounts. So the 4 consolidations will cost about $1,200.00 and take 4 years. Of course with a 100K non-Grandfathered Account you would have 10 HKC annually forever.

I do not understand why people think a Grandfathered No HKC should have a premium of $11K to $14K. I understand it might feel good to never have to worry about HKC charges but this does not make financial sense.

Edited to add: I guess a premium of $11K to $14K makes sense to the seller of the Account (especially if they over paid for the Account) or to a Broker that is making a % on the sell.


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## bizaro86 (Jun 25, 2018)

I think paying that premium only makes sense if you are doing tons of short reservations in big units using credits. I stretch fax/Monday madness to get some, and tend to book longer vacations in larger units, so for me a NHK doesn't make sense. 

At the $15k level alternative uses of cash matter to me. Let's assume you need a 10% return to justify spending the money, so you'd need to save $1500/year. Assuming $100/hk (2 bedroom units) that is 15 extra per year. So if you have a 100k account that would be 25 stays per year.

I think most of them are held by rental operators, people who paid less for them, and people who want the convenience of a NHK and aren't worried about the return on investment. Because over 10k for the vast majority of personal use situations that premium makes no sense at all.


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## VacationForever (Jun 25, 2018)

I did a cursory look at NHK value before and shook my head as to why anyone would want to pay a huge premium to acquire one.


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## rhonda (Jun 25, 2018)

DaveNW said:


> Thanks, Rhonda. I hadn't heard that, but I also don't think that Travelshare is anything I'm ever likely to use. I'm having trouble just using the WM credits I already own!
> 
> Dave


I'm sure you realize my comment was intended as sarcasm? 

Now that you have the key shortcut ("NHK"), don't forget to search TUG's rich archive of conversations.  These accounts have been discussed many times over the years.  I found ours back in 2001 because of conversations on TUG!


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## DaveNV (Jun 25, 2018)

rhonda said:


> I'm sure you realize my comment was intended as sarcasm?



I do now.  Funny how when you read things a certain way it means something completely different. 



rhonda said:


> Now that you have the key shortcut ("NHK"), don't forget to search TUG's rich archive of conversations.  These accounts have been discussed many times over the years.  I found ours back in 2001 because of conversations on TUG!



I'll dig deeper.  Searching on Tug (actually, FINDING things on Tug from Searches) seems to be a challenge for me.  I'll try and be more diligent.

But truth be told, now that I have my basic answer, that NHK accounts are off the chart, there's no reason to worry about them.  The math posts above showing how long it would take to recoup the investment illustrate how out of bounds those accounts are.  Which is probably something WM and Wyndham are happy about - they make a lot of money on housekeeping fees.

Dave


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## nkldavy (Jun 25, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> I did a cursory look at NHK value before and shook my head as to why anyone would want to pay a huge premium to acquire one.


   I am currently putting together a grouped reservation at 3 different resorts for a total of 7 or 8 nights and saving 3 housekeeping fees.  Pretty nice,
 especially if you believe you can sell your NHK for what you paid for it.
   William B


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## VacationForever (Jun 25, 2018)

nkldavy said:


> I am currently putting together a grouped reservation at 3 different resorts for a total of 7 or 8 nights and saving 3 housekeeping fees.  Pretty nice,
> especially if you believe you can sell your NHK for what you paid for it.
> William B


I get that, but like what you said, it is fine if down the line you can sell your NHK for what you paid.


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## ronparise (Jun 25, 2018)

The folks that own these accounts love them but put me on the side that says they are way too expensive.  Unless you add a lot of credits to it.a and even then I'm not sure

A regular 20000 credit account gets 2 HK let's assume the owner does  all 1 and 2 day reservations in low cost resorts in studios. He might have to buy 5 HK at about $100 each.  If he pays a $15000 premium he would need 30 years to break even

Regarding rentals.  Even when I owned 5OOO00 credits and did lot of rentals, it made no sense.  To get the high value reservations you had to reserve 13 months in advance. And when you make reservations that far in advance you have to reserve a week.  Remembering that a regular account gets one HK for every 10000 credits and knowing that the reservations I made to rent cost me 9000 to 15000 credits each, my regular account got all the HK I needed


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## ecwinch (Jun 27, 2018)

I'll jump on my soapbox for a moment and explain why I wont own one.

Simply put they were illegally created by Trendwest in the infancy of the Club - and there are less than 2500 of them in existence.

The WM concept was innovative at the time, but was built on a number of financially unsound tenets (i.e. No charge for housekeeping, fixed credit values, and a hard cap on dues increases ~ 5%).

Housekeeping charges were the first to fall - after a little more than two years they realized that people were taking a lot of short stays and the housekeeping expense was busting the budget. Jeld-Wen was funding Trendwest at the time, and realized that was not going to work. What they should have done was implement housekeeping charges on all owners or create a new membership class who had to pay housekeeping charges. But that would required re-filing a public offering statement in the various states, approval by multiple state agencies, and some potentially messy accounting. And what owners are going to agree to that revision after they have been promised that there never would be housekeeping charges?

So rather than doing it the right way, the BoD (Trendwest) decided to implement housekeeping charges on all new accounts created after a certain date. That caused some problems with sales that were in the pipeline, so they ended up extending the date by around 45 days.

There was only one problem with their approach. WM is formed as a non-profit mutual benefit corporation in the State of California. Under California Corporate Code every member of the corporation is required to pay dues and receive the exact same benefits. It is possible to create separate classes of membership with different benefits under California law, but to do so for an existing corporation it requires a vote of the membership. Which was never done.

So essentially the rest of the members pay the housekeeping charges for the NHK accounts. It's not a huge amount on per member basis, but if you ever are at a bar with a NHK member, make them pay for the drinks. Cause you have been paying their hk fees for years.


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## DaveNV (Jun 27, 2018)

ecwinch said:


> I'll jump on my soapbox for a moment and explain why I wont own one.



Thanks, Eric.  As always, lucid and informative. 

Dave


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## bizaro86 (Jun 27, 2018)

I may be a bit more pragmatic in my reasons for not owning a NHK than Eric (I think the ROI on buying one is poor for my usage) but his comments raise a point that I think is important even for me. I'm relatively confident that Wyndham is doing all sorts of unethical and grey area things that hurt owners, and I don't think the limited number of NHKs is likely the worst. However, if someone ever decided to start a class action saying that Wyndham has illegally created two classes of owners, I think there's a chance the NHK privileges get taken away. 

The thesis for buying a NHK has always been something like "it's convenient for me to do road trips and the NHK account has always held its value."

I think the ROI for a NHK is poor even if you assume that it holds its value (that was my 15 extra housekeeping needed to pay off calculation above). However, if you assume that at some future point the NHK feature will go away, that makes paying for it indefensible. Even a small chance of it going away changes the calculation on buying it, imo. You should then probability weight the two outcomes to get a net present value, and that makes it even less valuable.

That's all my opinion of course, and if someone wants to spend $10k+ on an NHK because that makes them happy, I'm not saying they're wrong to do so, just that I don't think the value is quantitatively supported. Just like most timeshare purchases, it can be an expensive luxury and if you like it that's ok.


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## DaveNV (Jun 27, 2018)

bizaro86 said:


> Just like most timeshare purchases, it can be an expensive luxury and if you like it that's ok.



The initial reason I started this thread was to ask whether NHK accounts were identifiable by some sort of obscure name or code or something, so the educated buyer might know it was a diamond in the weeds, while an uneducated buyer would have no idea what they were passing up.  In the same way I got an unobstructed oceanfront ownership at a nice timeshare in Kauai for virtually free, just because I knew what to look at, I was wondering if these NHK accounts were out there.  Your various replies show me they are out there, for a price, and they are known entities.  No harm, no foul, and in my case, no sale. 

Dave


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## ecwinch (Jun 28, 2018)

DaveNW said:


> The initial reason I started this thread was to ask whether NHK accounts were identifiable by some sort of obscure name or code or something, so the educated buyer might know it was a diamond in the weeds, while an uneducated buyer would have no idea what they were passing up.  In the same way I got an unobstructed oceanfront ownership at a nice timeshare in Kauai for virtually free, just because I knew what to look at, I was wondering if these NHK accounts were out there.  Your various replies show me they are out there, for a price, and they are known entities.  No harm, no foul, and in my case, no sale.
> 
> Dave



Generally speaking the account number will tell you if it is a NHK. The last five digits of the number will be less 2500. I dont believe the exact number of the last NHK sold is public knowledge - so anything above 2500 (the max no# of accounts sold) will not be a NHK account. Under 2500 - then you have a chance as some have speculated that the last NHK is around 2250. Someone who has one can jump in here, but I believe the credits show in a different column on the Account summary - i.e. WM+NHK or something like that. Non-NHK accts will have credits show up as WM (resale scum), WM+A (WM plus affiliates - usually a grandfather acct), or WMTS (developer credits).

The premium for them has increased in the past few years - somewhere in the 12-15k range now.


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## geist1223 (Jun 28, 2018)

Just to be clear Wyndham came on the scene long after the grandfathered NHK accounts came into being. The original Club I believe was known as "Club Espirit" or something like that. What is now known as Worldmark was started originally with a couple hotel rooms, a couple of units at Eagle Crest in Redmond Oregon, and I believe a couple units at an Oregon Coast time share. These last one are no longer part of the system. This eventually became Worldmark and Trendwest. There may have been an intermediate phase. At one time Jenweld (the window folks) owned a large part or all of the Developer phase - Trendwest. Trendwest sold out to Wyndham. So Wyndham became the Developer.

So the Grandfathered (original 2500 Accounts) NHK Accounts were created long ago like the 1980's and Wyndham had nothing to do with it. Wyndham was stuck with them when they bought out Trendwest. I am not a defender of Wyndham. As many folks on www.wmowners.com know I dislike Wyndham.

These Accounts were created so long ago I doubt that any legal action would cause them to go away. Also they are the original class of ownership. So if you wanted to have all classes of the Membership to be the same the legal result should be that all WM accounts become NHK. Think how much MF's would have to increase to cover HK for the additional 230,000+ owners. Also this would be a huge bonus for megamenters.


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## ecwinch (Jun 28, 2018)

I agree with you on principle, but on a couple of fine points I would disagree.

So in this hypothetical you constructed someone challenges that they should be subjected to housekeeping fees. But the BoD's ability to levy fees for usage is sound financially and authorized by the governing documents. So how is court going to rule that charging the membership HK fees is not within the authority of the BoD?

And the timeline is:

July 18, 1989 - Club Esprit files Articles of Incorporation in CA.

Apr 11, 1991 - BoD votes to add "additional maid service charges" for accts created after May 1, 1991. The way I read the BoD minutes for that meeting, it appears they had voted to implement maid service charges on all members, but the uproar resulting in them improperly grandfathering in the existing members.


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## breezez (Jul 13, 2018)

You can get lucky and get a NHK without trying I paid $3400 a few years back for an account that a guy still owed $3600.  Might be slightly off on my numbers but I agreed to $7K minus what he owed for a 21K annual account that was fully loaded.   I was irrited at first when I did not see any HK tokens in account when it went into my name nor when I got next years credits.

I eventually called into owners care and was told I had a NHK account.

So this is probably my only positive timeshare purchase.   

The rest would be break evens to unload or a small loss.


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## rhonda (Jul 13, 2018)

breezez said:


> I eventually called into owners care and was told I had a NHK account.


Ha, ha, ha!  Lucky dog!  Well done!

EDITED TO ADD:  I'm sure glad you hadn't attempted to merge that account beneath an existing account!  Phhh-eeee-wwww!


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## breezez (Jul 13, 2018)

ecwinch said:


> Someone who has one can jump in here, but I believe the credits show in a different column on the Account summary - i.e. WM+NHK or something like that. Non-NHK accts will have credits show up as WM (resale scum), WM+A (WM plus affiliates - usually a grandfather acct), or WMTS (developer credits).
> 
> The premium for them has increased in the past few years - somewhere in the 12-15k range now.



My NHK is resell but my credits all show WM.  I will have 0 HK’s.   If I make a reservation then cancel it will show 1 HK token until credit reshuffle that night at which time the HK token disappears.


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## taterhed (Jul 13, 2018)

Nice. 

Have your cake and eat it too.


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## herindoors911 (Jul 29, 2018)

There seems to be some confusion and incorrect information here regarding Grandfathered NHK accounts.

Mr. Geist's opinion above is his take, as is Eric's. And I appreciate their contribution.

Mr. Geist posted the blurb on WMO, basically because I had posted information about grandfathered NHK's,  merely to keep owners updated..   As I usually know where to find one, perhaps he considered my information to be "self-serving"....   I thought I was being helpful.   

A well known poster here bought a NHK via me, and presumably sold it at a profit.

There are thought to be 1,000 of these accounts remaining.  Some have been incorrectly combined and lost their standing.   Others have been lost due to the owners not appreciating or knowing they had a little gem.

A grandfathered NHK account must be retained as the main account.   The reason for this is that the Club Esprit contract has to remain in tact, with the low number it holds, also mentioned above.  Any combine is allowed, Travelshare included.
(One combine per anniversary year).   Any combined account takes on the NHK feature at the anniversary of the NHK.  With Transfers this now has to be done within their timing rules.

NHK accounts Do not move an Owner up in the Travelshare  tiers managed by Wyndham.  The credits sell as "resale" and are eligible for booking all WM resorts including FiJi, excluding other SP locations, Club Pass and affiliates.

Usually, there are NO HK tokens showing.   However, sometimes in the evening, one can see HK tokens in The box, as your account is refilled with tokens.  Having a 40k account, I often see 4 coming into my account at this timing.

The price of this grandfathered feature is now approximately $12k to $15k depending on how many are marketed.  Right now, there are more buyers than accounts for sale.


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## herindoors911 (Jul 29, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> I get that, but like what you said, it is fine if down the line you can sell your NHK for what you paid.




I would not sell my NHK for what I paid.   It is worth $6k more.


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## Sherlo (Apr 21, 2019)

ecwinch said:


> I'll jump on my soapbox for a moment and explain why I wont own one.
> 
> Simply put they were illegally created by Trendwest in the infancy of the Club - and there are less than 2500 of them in existence.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that history lesson as I wasn’t aware of the origins of NHK (with all sincerity). And I probably would buy you a drink so I could learn more. Just stumbled upon this site trying to determine the latest on NHK as we have one. I haven’t been on WMowners in many years so that sounds like a good idea. Cheers - until we meet at the bar


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