# Near drowning at Mountainside



## Pompey Family (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm surprised it hasn't happened earlier but my wife managed to pull a young boy (aged about 6) out of the pool who had got into difficulty in the deep end.  She managed to locate his mum who was sat around the hot tubs chatting.  When asked if she was his mum her attitude was one of hostility as if my wife was going to complain about bad behaviour.  When told he had nearly drowned she simply took hold of him and continued with her chat, no acknowledgement or thanks.  

Yesterday we had to grab a toddler who had walked through the open gate in the pool area and eventually found her mum sat in the grill area texting on her phone, completely oblivious to her child's whereabouts.

There is a real lack of parental control in this place, unlike any I've ever witnessed anywhere else.

I also have an issue with the place being used as some sort of community hangout.  Today we had the local high school girls volleyball team bussed in to take over the pool and the owners lounge whilst on Saturday a group of around 30 children accompanied by a handful of adults swamped the grill area where they ate a packed lunch and had the use of the pool.  We were only able to sit at the grills because we were there prior to their arrival but once they arrived there was nowhere for any of the other guests and owners to sit, this is not acceptable.

I've found the staff to be very friendly and enthusiastic but they're all so young and there is a reluctance to exert any form of authority which results in such a chaotic free for all.


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## billymach4 (Aug 13, 2013)

*Freeloaders!*

Gotta love the local freeloaders! I have managed to run into and observe the locals enjoying the grounds at Canyon Villa's, Ocean Pointe, DSV II over the years. 

While on vacation I look the other way. Sorry but I am not a cop on vacation, but the management of the resorts need to do a better job of keeping the freeloaders out. 

As far as the non attentive parents... Not sure what to say but it is shameful.


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## SkyBlueWaters (Aug 14, 2013)

Pompey Family said:


> I'm surprised it hasn't happened earlier but my wife managed to pull a young boy (aged about 6) out of the pool who had got into difficulty in the deep end.  She managed to locate his mum who was sat around the hot tubs chatting.  When asked if she was his mum her attitude was one of hostility as if my wife was going to complain about bad behaviour.  When told he had nearly drowned she simply took hold of him and continued with her chat, no acknowledgement or thanks.
> 
> Yesterday we had to grab a toddler who had walked through the open gate in the pool area and eventually found her mum sat in the grill area texting on her phone, completely oblivious to her child's whereabouts.
> 
> ...



This is concerning, but I think all your concerns are or may be related to the non-guests using the premises. I don't know, I'm just guessing. But could you call management at Mountainside or Marriott to complain about this. The drowning has been discussed before with present US laws laying the whole responsibility on the parents if the pool has no lifeguards. And truly it is our responsibility. I made sure my kids were all trained in swimming before we went to the resort this year, and I still stay with them at the pool, just in case (although mine never did when I was small). 

But with the crowding, we don't want free loaders to inundate the resort. We are paying to stay and expect a certain level of comfort. That goes out the door with the crowding. I myself have not experienced this at Mountainside during ski season, but perhaps the crowds are different in the Summer. I will make sure the representative hears about this in the owner's meeting when I get there. 

In the meantime, please make sure you mention all your complaints in the survey that they send you. It will help all of us. Thanks!


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## Saintsfanfl (Aug 14, 2013)

billymach4 said:


> Gotta love the local freeloaders! I have managed to run into and observe the locals enjoying the grounds at Canyon Villa's, Ocean Pointe, DSV II over the years.
> 
> While on vacation I look the other way. Sorry but I am not a cop on vacation, but the management of the resorts need to do a better job of keeping the freeloaders out.
> 
> As far as the non attentive parents... Not sure what to say but it is shameful.



I cannot speak for the other properties but at Ocean Pointe they allow day usage so locals, especially ones living in the neighborhood across the street, own specifically for this purpose. Some of them bought pre-construction. I have never noticed this as being a problem though so perhaps the issue you observed are non-owners.


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## Superchief (Aug 14, 2013)

At Mountainside, there are a lot of local owners who live in Salt Lake City. Mountainside is less than an hour drive, so they come on weekends to use the facilities. This situation is exacerbated by those who bring other friends and family members during their visits. When I was there 2 summers ago, a family (staying at the resort) next to me had invited another family from SLC to joing them at the pool.  As an owner, I plan to contact resort management and the HOA about this problem which appears to be getting worse. We usually avoid the pool on weekends due to this issue.

The areas around Park City are a lot less crowded than other vacation areas in the summer, so we really enjoy vacations there. Mountainside management has to recognize this problem and start doing something about it. The employees there are all very 'nice', but as Dalton said, there are times not to be 'nice'.


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## Saintsfanfl (Aug 14, 2013)

Superchief said:


> At Mountainside, there are a lot of local owners who live in Salt Lake City. Mountainside is less than an hour drive, so they come on weekends to use the facilities. This situation is exacerbated by those who bring other friends and family members during their visits. When I was there 2 summers ago, a family (staying at the resort) next to me had invited another family from SLC to joing them at the pool.  As an owner, I plan to contact resort management and the HOA about this problem which appears to be getting worse. We usually avoid the pool on weekends due to this issue.
> 
> The areas around Park City are a lot less crowded than other vacation areas in the summer, so we really enjoy vacations there. Mountainside management has to recognize this problem and start doing something about it. The employees there are all very 'nice', but as Dalton said, there are times not to be 'nice'.



Is there something in the docs that limit the number of guests that an owner can have? Is there anything that restricts an owner from inviting day guests while they are staying on their owned time? If it isn't in the docs, I don't see how management can legally do anything about it, but I am curious either way. I have never been to a Marriott that has mentioned any restrictions on guests or parking passes.


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## csxjohn (Aug 14, 2013)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Is there something in the docs that limit the number of guests that an owner can have? Is there anything that restricts an owner from inviting day guests while they are staying on their owned time? If it isn't in the docs, I don't see how management can legally do anything about it, but I am curious either way. I have never been to a Marriott that has mentioned any restrictions on guests or parking passes.



I know this makes too much sense but it seem to me that if your room occupancy is 4, that would be the limit on the number of people that could use the resort under your ownership at any one time.

So when I decide to take advantage of  day use at my resort I would not expect to be able to bring in any more than 3 other people at a time.


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## Fasttr (Aug 14, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> I know this makes too much sense but it seem to me that if your room occupancy is 4, that would be the limit on the number of people that could use the resort under your ownership at any one time.



Sure....that is what you are willing to put in writing....but we all know that you are secretly hoping for the high school girls volleyball team to show up at your pool.


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## VivianLynne (Aug 14, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> I know this makes too much sense but it seem to me that if your room occupancy is 4, that would be the limit on the number of people that could use the resort under your ownership at any one time.
> 
> So when I decide to take advantage of  day use at my resort I would not expect to be able to bring in any more than 3 other people at a time.



My Shawnee DAY USEAGE is allowed for ONLY my family members on the deed. NOT just the same number of people - the exact people.

As for the NICE resort people and their managers/supervisors, they get paid to do a job. Polite on the job is fine - but their GUESTS are the current people who are checked and staying onsite. Non-guests (or non-owners) are stealing the services they are charged with protecting and exposing the OWNERS to big financial RISK. Plus, the management should POST and enforce safety issues at the swimming pools ALL the time (like during pool hours and locking the pool when closed).


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## Big Matt (Aug 14, 2013)

Back to the point about the mother not reacting to you.  There are so many parents who both work and send kids off to day care or school.  I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, but kids this age need supervision.  A lot of parents don't deal with the kids outside of the house, and even though there are dangers there, it's nothing like a strange place like a crowded resort.  Thank goodness the child didn't die.  What if you decided to just take the child.  The mother would have never known......


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## travelmom11 (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm sorry about the rude mother but as a mother to a 5 1/2 year old I wanted to say THANK YOU! I keep an eagle eye on my son but my husband is not so overprotective. It's nice to hear of others, who like myself, tend to even watch other kids safety.


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## VivianLynne (Aug 14, 2013)

Big difference of being in the immediate area of their child when their view is blocked for 10 seconds, sun reflection is bad, another responsible person was watching or the truant/escape artist child romps away ---- OVER ---- SITTING their butt into a far off hot tub without regard as to their kid's location.


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## SMHarman (Aug 14, 2013)

travelmom11 said:


> I'm sorry about the rude mother but as a mother to a 5 1/2 year old I wanted to say THANK YOU! I keep an eagle eye on my son but my husband is not so overprotective. It's nice to hear of others, who like myself, tend to even watch other kids safety.


There is a big difference between being overprotective and helicopter parenting and stepping back 30ft and letting the child find their limits.
If a child can't explore their limits, how will they know what they are.  Too many parents these days tell their children not to do something (like climb to the top of the climbing structure in the playground) rather than let them reach for the sky.
That said, clearly if the parent is not in the vicinity, that is a big problem  .
I'm saying I'm not in the pool next to them.  I'm in the pool area or something like that, but watching from a distance.


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## Saintsfanfl (Aug 14, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> I know this makes too much sense but it seem to me that if your room occupancy is 4, that would be the limit on the number of people that could use the resort under your ownership at any one time.
> 
> So when I decide to take advantage of  day use at my resort I would not expect to be able to bring in any more than 3 other people at a time.



It does make sense. This is what Ocean Pointe does from an "official" policy stand point. They allow 8 people for 1 ownership for day use. 

Putting day use aside, it is just that when you get into being an "owner" you are an actual real estate owner for that interval. If you owned a condo outright nobody is going to tell you that you cannot have guests over for a party. The HOA can certainly vote on having the limitations and then the resort should enforce it but in my experience Marriott is on the far other side of heavy handedness. I am still curious on whether it is in any of the governing docs of the various resorts.


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## kwindham (Aug 14, 2013)

This type of info really irks me!  I have an inground pool myself, and over the years I have learned to be especially careful in who I invite over for a swim.  Some parents just have the mindset that a swimming pool is a "babysitter" when in fact a swimming pool can be deadly!  

Last spring, I had company over and we were sitting by the pool, to early in the year for swimming.  I made the comment several times to both parents that they needed to make the 4yo back away from the pool, as I feared he would fall in.  Oh he wont they said.  Not 5 minutes later he miss-stepped and fell in the deep end and immediately started heading to the bottom.  within 10 seconds I had dove in COLD water and retrieved him, before his parents really ever knew what was going on.  Can you say ticked off?!  I politely asked them to take him home to get warm clothes and have never extended an invitation to them again.  

I see this all the time at resorts.  parent is engrossed in a book/phone/etc while child is in pool.  These  people need to wake the heck up and realize they are gambling with their childs life.


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## Saintsfanfl (Aug 14, 2013)

There are two steps to keeping your child from drowning. First, teach them to swim. Second, never take your eyes off them for more than a few seconds. I live by this. My 5yr old has been swimming on his own with no assistance since he was 2. My 1 yr old is well on his way.

I don't just not take my eyes off my kids because of drowning. There are so many predator's in this world. It only takes a few seconds and the child could be gone, whether kidnapped or drowning.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 14, 2013)

Saintsfanfl said:


> It does make sense. This is what Ocean Pointe does from an "official" policy stand point. They allow 8 people for 1 ownership for day use.
> 
> Putting day use aside, it is just that when you get into being an "owner" you are an actual real estate owner for that interval. If you owned a condo outright nobody is going to tell you that you cannot have guests over for a party. The HOA can certainly vote on having the limitations and then the resort should enforce it but in my experience Marriott is on the far other side of heavy handedness. I am still curious on whether it is in any of the governing docs of the various resorts.



Both my resorts allow Day Pass usage for Owners and their guests.  The docs don't specify a limit on the number of guests or any blackout dates.  But they do say that the resort GM has complete discretion to impose any limits s/he deems necessary, including a refusal to issue any Day Passes during high-demand periods.

During our stay at Waiohai several years ago we were surprised to learn that staff members were allowed to bring their families to the resort on Saturdays and Sundays, with full use of all amenities.  We were told that it's a common occurrence at many Hawaiian resorts, practically a job perk with so many in the hospitality industry.  The thinking was that with weekend changeover days there would be fewer Owners on property so the employees' families wouldn't create a burden on the facilities.  But we found that they took over the pool, the beach and the gas grill areas.  I wonder if any changes were made to that policy when the DC system came online with check-ins any day of the week.


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## Saintsfanfl (Aug 14, 2013)

SueDonJ said:


> Both my resorts allow Day Pass usage for Owners and their guests.  The docs don't specify a limit on the number of guests or any blackout dates.  But they do say that the resort GM has complete discretion to impose any limits s/he deems necessary, including a refusal to issue any Day Passes during high-demand periods.
> 
> During our stay at Waiohai several years ago we were surprised to learn that staff members were allowed to bring their families to the resort on Saturdays and Sundays, with full use of all amenities.  We were told that it's a common occurrence at many Hawaiian resorts, practically a job perk with so many in the hospitality industry.  The thinking was that with weekend changeover days there would be fewer Owners on property so the employees' families wouldn't create a burden on the facilities.  But we found that they took over the pool, the beach and the gas grill areas.  I wonder if any changes were made to that policy when the DC system came online with check-ins any day of the week.



I would be so ticked off if I was owner occupying and loads of employee families were taking up the space. Especially if I managed to make it to Hawaii.


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 14, 2013)

I spent 2 summers of college being a lifeguard - pool first year, lake second year. Took Red Cross Life Saving and passed 3 times in 5 years; I was not someone who liked the water nor swam on a swim team. 

Back in those dark ages (years ago) - there were parents who seldom were attentive to their kids then also. 

But 2 years after working the pool, the very cute blond toddler fell into the creek behind his house and drowned. His mom spent many hours in the pool with him, doing the "drown proofing" training while I was guarding that summer. I saw the report in the local newspaper on the drowning accident - knowing the family and the child - that was hard.


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## dougp26364 (Aug 14, 2013)

Pompey Family said:


> I'm surprised it hasn't happened earlier but my wife managed to pull a young boy (aged about 6) out of the pool who had got into difficulty in the deep end.  She managed to locate his mum who was sat around the hot tubs chatting.  When asked if she was his mum her attitude was one of hostility as if my wife was going to complain about bad behaviour.  When told he had nearly drowned she simply took hold of him and continued with her chat, no acknowledgement or thanks.
> 
> Yesterday we had to grab a toddler who had walked through the open gate in the pool area and eventually found her mum sat in the grill area texting on her phone, completely oblivious to her child's whereabouts.
> 
> ...



It's for issues similar to this that we'll prefer to stay at Summit Watch anytime we want to go back to Park City.  Either that or stay at the new HGVC or DRI's resort. While we thought Mountainside was a very nice resort, we always felt we were in the middle if a "Kids Gone Wild" video. Parents apparently just turn their kids loose and, of course, kids will be kids. It's not their fault IMHO. Why management or the HOA doesn't take a larger interest is beyond me.


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## dougp26364 (Aug 14, 2013)

billymach4 said:


> Gotta love the local freeloaders! I have managed to run into and observe the locals enjoying the grounds at Canyon Villa's, Ocean Pointe, DSV II over the years.
> 
> While on vacation I look the other way. Sorry but I am not a cop on vacation, but the management of the resorts need to do a better job of keeping the freeloaders out.
> 
> As far as the non attentive parents... Not sure what to say but it is shameful.



Ocean Pointe has removed all the doors from the registration building that allowed access without having to enter a code on a locked gate. All the gates have number coded locks. The resort has become cashless so you either have to do a room charge or hand them a credit card. Security was beefed up a couple of years ago as well. All of these changes have supposedly made a difference since we're only in residence in November or December, we really haven't noticed much. I have seen security check/ask for room keys and bounce people who couldn't produce one or tell them a villa number that could be confirmed.


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## ScubaKat (Aug 14, 2013)

We fall into the category of overprotective/helicopter parenting with the hubby definitely in the helicopter end.  We have had many of conversations for him to back away from our 4 year old daughter at the playgrounds.  Having him sit on the bench instead is like torturing him.. 

I am a bit more relaxed in certain situations but being around water is not one of them.  I grew up with a pool at the house.. a trained rescue diver and am too aware of how fast something can happen.   



SMHarman said:


> There is a big difference between being overprotective and helicopter parenting and stepping back 30ft and letting the child find their limits.
> If a child can't explore their limits, how will they know what they are.  Too many parents these days tell their children not to do something (like climb to the top of the climbing structure in the playground) rather than let them reach for the sky.
> That said, clearly if the parent is not in the vicinity, that is a big problem  .
> I'm saying I'm not in the pool next to them.  I'm in the pool area or something like that, but watching from a distance.





Saintsfanfl said:


> There are two steps to keeping your child from drowning. First, teach them to swim. Second, never take your eyes off them for more than a few seconds. I live by this. My 5yr old has been swimming on his own with no assistance since he was 2. My 1 yr old is well on his way.
> 
> I don't just not take my eyes off my kids because of drowning. There are so many predator's in this world. It only takes a few seconds and the child could be gone, whether kidnapped or drowning.


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## simpsontruckdriver (Aug 14, 2013)

The way I was raised (born 1972) was to let us do what we want that would not kill us (remember those plastic plugs parents put in electric sockets?). Like, if we went to a playground, they would observe. If one of us got hurt (and we got hurt - seesaw, "jungle jim", etc), they would brush us off and we would go back and play. Life teaches better than an over-protective 'don't do that' parent.

In the case of a pool, watch! Remember what we thought of our moms having eyes on the back of her head? I guess those "eyes" are closed. When my wife and I stayed at Wyndham Ocean Walk for Labor Day last year, I saw parents who were watching their kids, or using the lazy river WITH them.

TS


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## dougp26364 (Aug 14, 2013)

simpsontruckdriver said:


> The way I was raised (born 1972) was to let us do what we want that would not kill us (remember those plastic plugs parents put in electric sockets?). Like, if we went to a playground, they would observe. If one of us got hurt (and we got hurt - seesaw, "jungle jim", etc), they would brush us off and we would go back and play. Life teaches better than an over-protective 'don't do that' parent.
> 
> In the case of a pool, watch! Remember what we thought of our moms having eyes on the back of her head? I guess those "eyes" are closed. When my wife and I stayed at Wyndham Ocean Walk for Labor Day last year, I saw parents who were watching their kids, or using the lazy river WITH them.
> 
> TS


. The operative word is "observe." So many parents turn their kids loose and then go do whatever they want. Cruises are another great example of kids allowed to run wild without parental supervision.


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## SMHarman (Aug 14, 2013)

ScubaKat said:


> We fall into the category of overprotective/helicopter parenting with the hubby definitely in the helicopter end.  We have had many of conversations for him to back away from our 4 year old daughter at the playgrounds.  Having him sit on the bench instead is like torturing him..
> 
> I am a bit more relaxed in certain situations but being around water is not one of them.  I grew up with a pool at the house.. a trained rescue diver and am too aware of how fast something can happen.



Kat, when I were a boy I trained as a Lifeguard so I hear where you are coming from. I'm also an Advanced Open Water Diver but don't get under water as often as I would like.

Somehow I have two kids that love the water but don't like getting their faces wet!

Another thing to highlight to people is that drowning people do it very quietly. People think you drown like 'help I'm drowning' actors in movies. Nope, silent struggle above surface and then underwater silence is what you get.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


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## Carlsbadguy (Aug 14, 2013)

What is interesting is at Summit Watch they took away Day Use after the resort sold out due to crowding issues.  I am surprised it is still available at Mountainside as the pool area at Mountainside seems to be much more crowded.


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## SkyBlueWaters (Aug 14, 2013)

Saintsfanfl said:


> Is there something in the docs that limit the number of guests that an owner can have? Is there anything that restricts an owner from inviting day guests while they are staying on their owned time? If it isn't in the docs, I don't see how management can legally do anything about it, but I am curious either way. I have never been to a Marriott that has mentioned any restrictions on guests or parking passes.



I have to read through the original deed of Mountainside to answer that, but I do know that in Ko Olina where locals tend to invade the place, they had some systems in place to control trespassers. 

One, when you check in, your name will be in a list. The guard would not let you through if your name is not there. Two, parking garages are only accessible with key cards. Three, on the grounds, you're supposed to have wrist bands with changing colors for each week to identify guests. Four, during peak times, they go around offering drinks or arranging lounge chairs.

Similar security measures for vehicles entrances are found in the Orlando resorts.

I imagine use of facilities should be limited to guests.


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## SkyBlueWaters (Aug 14, 2013)

VivianLynne said:


> My Shawnee DAY USEAGE is allowed for ONLY my family members on the deed. NOT just the same number of people - the exact people.
> 
> As for the NICE resort people and their managers/supervisors, they get paid to do a job. Polite on the job is fine - but their GUESTS are the current people who are checked and staying onsite. Non-guests (or non-owners) are stealing the services they are charged with protecting and exposing the OWNERS to big financial RISK. Plus, the management should POST and enforce safety issues at the swimming pools ALL the time (like during pool hours and locking the pool when closed).



Absolutely agree with this. Just because they try to avoid liability does not mean they shouldn't impose the rules on children. For goodness sake, who cares about liability if anyone drowns!


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## csxjohn (Aug 14, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> ...Another thing to highlight to people is that drowning people do it very quietly. People think you drown like 'help I'm drowning' actors in movies. Nope, silent struggle above surface and then underwater silence is what you get.
> Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2



Post #3 in this thread has an excellent link addressing this issue.  My advice in post #1 has not changed. 


http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195522


When my daughter was a lifeguard, one company she worked for required her to call 911 any time she had to go into the water to assist someone.

It amazed me that parents got mad at her because they had to answer questions and fill out paper work.


I am so glad the OP was alert and avoided a tragedy.  


Here is the link provided by RX8 in case you don't want to read the other thread about the boy that drowned.

http://www.king5.com/health/signs-of-drowning-may-not-be-what-you-think-210283981.html


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## SMHarman (Aug 14, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> Post #3 in this thread has an excellent link addressing this issue.  My advice in post #1 has not changed.
> 
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195522
> ...


My lifeguard training was in the UK ( Royal Life Saving Society UK (RLSS)) and likely different to the US but I clearly remember the last thing you were supposed to when pool guarding was to go in the water.  At a pool you should have all the tools you need to get the person to the side of the pool without getting in.


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 14, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> ....and likely different to the US but I clearly remember the last thing you were supposed to when pool guarding was to go in the water.  At a pool you should have all the tools you need to get the person to the side of the pool without getting in.



Always a good guarding mantra ... one I remembered as a woman Lifeguard - one crazied teenager can drown a guard by trying to crawl on top of the life guard. My goal was to not let a situation become a 'me get wet' moment.

"911" did not exist in the dark ages but that would certainly be a good CYA action and means to document WHO, WHAT and WHY an emergency existed for all those parents/babysitters if a person was in danger or needed assistance (drinking, not watched, "horseplay", bullying).


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## geekette (Aug 14, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> My lifeguard training was in the UK ( Royal Life Saving Society UK (RLSS)) and likely different to the US but I clearly remember the last thing you were supposed to when pool guarding was to go in the water.  At a pool you should have all the tools you need to get the person to the side of the pool without getting in.



Exactly right.  Shepherd's crook should be in plain view and accessible by ANYONE in the pool area, ditto the donut.   But we still had the 'escape the panicked swimmer' training, too, in case we had to go in.  

My x was not a strong swimmer.  I always told him I would save him, but if he fought me, I'd save myself from him instead.


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## Pompey Family (Aug 14, 2013)

Saintsfanfl said:


> I don't just not take my eyes off my kids because of drowning. There are so many predator's in this world. It only takes a few seconds and the child could be gone, whether kidnapped or drowning.



Very true.  I'm a detective and I've spent several months on the local paedophile unit so I'm a bit more alert about strange men than my wife is (sometimes too over alert) and I'm aghast at the number of very young children wandering the resort alone.  This morning the lift opened and a girl aged no more than four got in, I held the doors open expecting her parent(s) to enter but she was alone.  My wife asked her where she was going but she was too shy to reply.  She ended up getting out at the second floor, going to the Mine, gym or pool was anyone's guess.  This place is a terrifying tragedy waiting to happen and it's entirely down to the parents.  I have never witnessed such complicit abandonment of children outside of the abuse cases I deal with at work.


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 14, 2013)

Pompey Family said:


> ....This place is a terrifying tragedy waiting to happen and it's entirely down to the parents.  I have never witnessed such complicit abandonment of children outside of the abuse cases I deal with at work.



And this is still the sad story of the little British female toddler whose parents gave her a toddy so they could go out to dinner with friends on their Portugal holiday - how many years missing?


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## Pompey Family (Aug 14, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> And this is still the sad story of the little British female toddler whose parents gave her a toddy so they could go out to dinner with friends on their Portugal holiday - how many years missing?



Don't worry, I'm well aware that many other nationalities are equally as lax in their supervision of their children.


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## csxjohn (Aug 14, 2013)

SMHarman said:


> ... At a pool you should have all the tools you need to get the person to the side of the pool without getting in.



.[/QUOTE]

You may have been lucky enough to guard small pools where you could handle every situation without going in.
I'm sure you got training for when there was no alternative than to go in.

If every situation could be handled from pool side, in-water rescue would not have to be taught.


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## vacationhopeful (Aug 14, 2013)

Pompey Family said:


> Don't worry, I'm well aware that many other nationalities are equally as lax in their supervision of their children.



I was not mentioning that particular missing toddler for her origin --- that was SO all over our press and was a vacation resort --- just like the toddler you found getting onto your elevator.


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## SMHarman (Aug 14, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> You may have been lucky enough to guard small pools where you could handle every situation without going in.
> I'm sure you got training for when there was no alternative than to go in.
> 
> If every situation could be handled from pool side, in-water rescue would not have to be taught.


As I said the last thing you do is get wet. 
You potentially create two people that need rescuing etc. 

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk 2


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## kwindham (Aug 15, 2013)

Pompey Family said:


> Very true.  I'm a detective and I've spent several months on the local paedophile unit so I'm a bit more alert about strange men than my wife is (sometimes too over alert) and I'm aghast at the number of very young children wandering the resort alone.  This morning the lift opened and a girl aged no more than four got in, I held the doors open expecting her parent(s) to enter but she was alone.  My wife asked her where she was going but she was too shy to reply.  She ended up getting out at the second floor, going to the Mine, gym or pool was anyone's guess.  This place is a terrifying tragedy waiting to happen and it's entirely down to the parents.  I have never witnessed such complicit abandonment of children outside of the abuse cases I deal with at work.



Good grief, what is wrong with these parents?!


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## m61376 (Aug 15, 2013)

As a pool owner, I can tell you it has been shocking over the years how lax parents are. Having had many parties over the years, it would drive me nuts that parents would turn their backs on kids in the pool, expecting others to watch them. I once had a situation where I left another Mom to watch our 5 year olds and her 2 year old when I ran into the house for 10 minutes. I came back to find my 5 year old watching her 2 year old by the pool steps ( my daughter knew no one went into the pool without an adult there) while the other Mom had taken her 5 year old in to the bathroom. I almost flipped at the irresponsibility, and learned then and there never to rely on another parent unless I knew them well. Similarly, I instilled in my kids that if they went to a friend's house with a pool, they were not allowed in unless there was a parent outside watching. There were many instances where they sat on the steps because they knew better than to go in.

Parents forget whether owing and being at a pool there are responsibilities, and you can't take your eyes off. Swimmies do not replace parental supervision, although many parents think putting shimmies on toddlers make them invincible. As you can tell its a pet peeve of mine.

Unfortunately, being a parent does not mean that they'll properly supervise their kids. So many accidents could be avoided.


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## csxjohn (Aug 15, 2013)

m61376 said:


> ...learned then and there never to rely on another parent unless I knew them well. ...



Not even if I know them well until they understand my rules.




> ... Swimmies do not replace parental supervision, although many parents think putting shimmies on toddlers make them invincible. As you can tell its a pet peeve of mine.
> 
> ...



When I was very young I could not understand why my dad would not let me float in the lake on an inner tube.  I know now and my kids were never allowed to use tubes or swimmies or water wings or anything like that.

Once they were proficient swimmers floats were OK with me and of course no need for the water wings.

It's sad how many parents think those toys are dependable.


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## Superchief (Aug 15, 2013)

Does anyone have the email information for the GM at Mountainside? As an owner, I plan to send them an email regarding my concerns. I agree that the parental supervision at this resort is the worst I have every observed. They need to be reading this thread.


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## Pompey Family (Aug 15, 2013)

Superchief said:


> Does anyone have the email information for the GM at Mountainside? As an owner, I plan to send them an email regarding my concerns. I agree that the parental supervision at this resort is the worst I have every observed. They need to be reading this thread.



With the exception of hiring a lifeguard I can't see that the manager can do much to change things.  The major issue is parental responsibility.  The number of times I've watched people walk through the gates to the pool and not check that they're closed, perhaps stronger springs on the gates are required like those in other resorts.  Should a member of staff be responsible for checking that every child unaccompanied has a parent or responsible adult close by?

Are the issues reflected by the clientele?  By that I mean how many guests are owners or traders vs those who have paid a daily rate/invited as guests?  I know I may sound quite snobbish but I've noticed a correlation between resorts that are primarily owner occupied and have better behaved guests compared to those that have a higher proportion of non-Marriott owners.


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## SueDonJ (Aug 15, 2013)

Superchief said:


> Does anyone have the email information for the GM at Mountainside? As an owner, I plan to send them an email regarding my concerns. I agree that the parental supervision at this resort is the worst I have every observed. They need to be reading this thread.



I looked at the Owners tab on Mountainside's my-vacationclub.com page but didn't see the GM's name anywhere.  If you know it, you should be able to use the standard format of _john.doe@vacationclub.com_.

Next best thing might be contacting the board?  That's _ownerboard.mountainside~AT~vacationclub.com_ (change "~AT~" to "@", of course.)


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## geekette (Aug 16, 2013)

Pompey Family said:


> With the exception of hiring a lifeguard I can't see that the manager can do much to change things.  The major issue is parental responsibility.  The number of times I've watched people walk through the gates to the pool and not check that they're closed, perhaps stronger springs on the gates are required like those in other resorts.  Should a member of staff be responsible for checking that every child unaccompanied has a parent or responsible adult close by?
> 
> Are the issues reflected by the clientele?  By that I mean how many guests are owners or traders vs those who have paid a daily rate/invited as guests?  I know I may sound quite snobbish but I've noticed a correlation between resorts that are primarily owner occupied and have better behaved guests compared to those that have a higher proportion of non-Marriott owners.


Owners would need to absorb an extra staffing budget and this should not be cheaped out on.   By that I mean, get a Good Lifeguard (responsible of whatever age) and do not have them be in charge of anything but watching the actual pool, NOT the pool AREA, that would be the responsibility of another.

I think the liability structure would change even with 'we assume no risk' as the lifeguard could personally be sued.   I lifeguarded for many many years when I was young.  There was nothing to take from me personally, I of course did not carry insurance!   being sued would have added to the sorrow I would have felt for trying everything and failing.  While I never had to go in the water, I did fish some kids out.   Moms mad at their kids "he knows not to swim over here!"  and mad at me that I didn't GET IN to save them.  

There were times when I had to be the one to hustle the drunks out, taking me away from the water.  That's a creepy feeling as a lifeguard, but one must use their judgement when solely responsible for all in AND AROUND the pool.  Inebriated swimmers are as much a danger to others as they are to themselves and I judged it best to remove them when they became disruptive and oblivious to others.  

Don't have a lifeguard that is also tasked with something else.   Have some one else clean, check bands, prevent under age whatever without adult, hustle the drunks...   Enforce rules, including chair hogging if that's an issue, and capacity.  The more crowded the pool, the more difficult it is to account for all in it.  

include verbiage in welcome packet and pool area signage "You are responsible for the life of your child" and I would be that blunt.  Scare them into responsibility.  "only you know how well your children swim" "unaccompanied children will be ejected from the pool area for their own safety"  which should terrify the parents but probably won't.  Have enough signs and maybe it will subliminally sink in that they love and care about their offspring.

Please teach your own kids to WALK on the pool deck.  One slip to conk your head and into the water unconscious ...  and please, no jumping from the deck onto a floatation device - too easy to fall backwards, conk your head, and into the water unconscious ...  I have a million of them but those are "every kid" basics, right after Buddy System.  

Beaches are for running, oceans are for jumping.

I hope everyone manages to stay safe and that parents WAKE UP.


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## csxjohn (Aug 16, 2013)

> include verbiage in welcome packet and pool area signage "You are responsible for the life of your child" and I would be that blunt. Scare them into responsibility. "only you know how well your children swim" "unaccompanied children will be ejected from the pool area for their own safety" which should terrify the parents but probably won't. Have enough signs and maybe it will subliminally sink in that they love and care about their offspring.



I love this idea.




geekette said:


> ...  I have a million of them but those are "every kid" basics, right after Buddy System.
> 
> Beaches are for running, oceans are for jumping.
> 
> I hope everyone manages to stay safe and that parents WAKE UP.



I'm glad you mentioned the "buddy system."  The pool at our local Boy Scout camp takes this to the extreme.

A buddy board is used and every person in the pool has a tag that is color coded according to swimming ability.  The board is sectioned off just like the pool, deep end, middle that's not so deep, and shallow end.

No one goes in the pool area alone!  You and your buddy put the tag in the section you will be swimming in and you must stay within reach of your "buddy."  

About every 10 or 15 minutes the whistle is blown and everyone one grasps his buddies hand and raises them over their heads.  The lifeguards count the swimmers in each section of the pool and make sure it corresponds to the buddy board.  If something doesn't match, no one resumes swimming until it is corrected.  Sometimes the swimmers move into another section of the pool without changing their tags to that section.

This may be a little extreme for a resort pool but is was the safest system I've seen.


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## kwindham (Aug 16, 2013)

geekette said:


> Owners would need to absorb an extra staffing budget and this should not be cheaped out on.   By that I mean, get a Good Lifeguard (responsible of whatever age) and do not have them be in charge of anything but watching the actual pool, NOT the pool AREA, that would be the responsibility of another.
> 
> I think the liability structure would change even with 'we assume no risk' as the lifeguard could personally be sued.   I lifeguarded for many many years when I was young.  There was nothing to take from me personally, I of course did not carry insurance!   being sued would have added to the sorrow I would have felt for trying everything and failing.  While I never had to go in the water, I did fish some kids out.   Moms mad at their kids "he knows not to swim over here!"  and mad at me that I didn't GET IN to save them.
> 
> ...



YOU are responsible for the life of YOUR child!  I love it.


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## Superchief (Aug 16, 2013)

Hiring a lifeguard isn't a viable solution and would be expensive for owners. The resort needs to establish and enforce the rules. Limit the number of outside guests. If children are running around the fitness room or resort without adults, find their parents and explain this isn't allowed. The problem at Mountainside is that staff has not been well trained to stop problems before they start. Rules are posted and never enforced. 

Unfortunately, too many adults today never grew up and learned to take responsibilities as a parent. Therefore, hotel and resort staffs need to be trained to politely enforce the rules or things will get out of contro, as they have at Mountainside. Include information about these rules in the welcome packet and clearly state that they will be enjorced in order to assure safety and enjoyment for all guests. I have observed staff at other MVC locations warn people that unattended children aren't allowed in the fitness center. Why can't they do this at Mountainside? As an owner, my liability needs to be protected and that should be a key responsibility for staff.


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## Pompey Family (Aug 16, 2013)

Superchief said:


> Hiring a lifeguard isn't a viable solution and would be expensive for owners.



I disagree.  It's only a minor additional staff cost and can be fully funded quite easily. All the European resorts provide lifeguards, I don't think such a resort in Europe can operate without such provision.


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