# Is retirement overrated?



## Chilcotin (Jun 22, 2015)

Interesting article.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/1318...rated-you-may-be-surprised-by-the-answer.html


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

I am 59 and I am struggling through each day at work. It's not the actual work, per se- although I am not interested in it- but it's the SCHEDULE of work that is killing me. 11 hours per day when you take commuting and so forth into consideration. Day in and day out. 

These articles are ridiculous. People might be living longer, but they aren't jumping around with excessive energy!


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## artringwald (Jun 22, 2015)

I was fortunate to work 35 years for a large company with a good pension plan, and retired when I was 58. Unfortunately, most companies aren't offering pension plans anymore, including the company where I worked. The 401K plans leave too much up to the employees, who won't save enough, or won't know how to manage the investments properly. We may be living longer, many will have to work much longer than they expected.


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## x3 skier (Jun 22, 2015)

It may be "outmoded" but definitely not overrated.

I'm fortunate to have both a nice pension and Social Security. Life is Good!

Cheers


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

No pension here. Always worked full-time- never skipped a beat. I saved and saved my whole life, but enjoyed life as well. Still, need Medicare and SS income. The other issue is no raises in years. I am making the same salary at this job as I made 17 years ago. But I have to be thankful that I even have a job.You can only save if you have the money. If everything goes up except your income you are in big trouble. Everything is so expensive- property and school taxes a killer in NY. Our house has been paid off for many years, yet because of taxes I feel like we still have a mortgage! Rents are atrocious. For many people, nothing left after paying rent/mortgage/taxes. Can't sell our home- glut of homes here on the market and some local issues, as well as younger generation not buying homes. Stuck big time! I hope I don't live too long!


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 22, 2015)

Personally, if you have a pension ... good for you!

But the majority people UNDER 62, do NOT have a pension unless they were employed by the government for 5+ years. Actually, very few non-government people under 65 have a pension.

But to someone who was 5 MONTHS away from being vested in a 10 year earned pension plan WHEN the US government changed the vesting date (to make it so people could "port" their pensions) to 5 years ... big business suddenly had a recession laying off millions of unvested employees ... in November 1982.... it raises my blood pressure ... it is a very SORE POINT and gets more maddening everyday as I approach WHAT should have been my retirement date (dang, I could have retired 15 months ago .. if only.....). And being all those years, my company had a pension plan, I only got to sock $2000 a year away in an IRA.

And I have listened to 'friends' with government pension plans 'brag' how smart they were and how much they get from their pension each month ... I been cutting them out of my life at least the last 15+ years. Yes, I have invested and saved - then watched the stock market drop, the economy imploded, the jobs evaporate to other countries, my primary home tank in value, the fewer people moving up the economic ladder, the service industry looking so different from yesteryear, my doctors' office absorbed & closed into an urgent care center ($100+ co-pay), medical insurance up 35% as the "affordable" option (after my plan of several years got cancelled because it was not "affordable" at hundreds a month LESS than my NEW $1000 per month affordable plan) ... etc.

My property taxes have zoomed to pay for the pensions of the government and teachers pension plans, health insurance and every year, their pay increases.

Sorry, if I offend anyone ... those are my perceptions .... I wish I could pick threads to "IGNORE".


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## Conan (Jun 22, 2015)

The author cherry-picks data. To get the increase in life expectancy he uses a male age 65 (because the result is more dramatic than using female or unisex), and he goes back 50 years (comparing today's American male to his grandfather). Then he says "40%" which sounds more impressive than the number of years. And to say that retirement lasts 27.5 years he switches to a two-life figure.

Here's the table:
Going back 25 years (one generation) and using the unisex table, life expectancy at age 65 is up by only 2.4 years, from 16.7 years (age 81.7) to 19.1 years (age 84.1).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2011/022.pdf


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## bogey21 (Jun 22, 2015)

I was a workaholic during my working career.  Often left the house between 4 and 6 am and got home between 8 and 10 pm.  Also worked Saturday and sometimes half a day on Sunday.  When I retired at age 65 I was concerned that I wouldn't be able to adjust.  Well it took me all of 24 hours.  The 15 years post retirement have been the best in my life!!

George


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## Passepartout (Jun 22, 2015)

Conan said:


> Here's the table:
> http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2011/022.pdf
> Going back 25 years (one generation) and using the unisex table, life expectancy at age 65 is up by *only* 2.4 years, from 16.7 years (age 81.7) to 19.1 years (age 84.1).
> http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2011/022.pdf



Well and good. But believe me, if (when) you are 81 and formerly would have been expected to check out in a few months, and now the number is another 3+ years, it isn't 'only'. It's a big deal!

Yes, I DO feel for those people who entered the workforce after the advent of the 401(k), and the demise of traditional pensions. They were cut out of a secure retirement, and put adrift with their own preparations. Those who studied a little and set up proper savings, and did it early enough will do OK, but there was temptation to change jobs, raid retirement accounts, pay for kids' educations, buy big houses, etc. etc., and those folks will probably not retire as well-off as their parents did.

Jim (who contributed the max to his 401(k) and gets no pension)


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Personally, if you have a pension ... good for you!
> 
> But the majority people UNDER 62, do NOT have a pension unless they were employed by the government for 5+ years. Actually, very few non-government people under 65 have a pension.
> 
> ...



You hit the nail on the head here, Linda. This so resonates with me.


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

... the sun does not go round the earth,
... man’s no centre of the universe;
And working in an office makes it worse.
Auden



Love this quote!


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

Passepartout said:


> Well and good. But believe me, if (when) you are 81 and formerly would have been expected to check out in a few months, and now the number is another 3+ years, it isn't 'only'. It's a big deal!
> 
> Yes, I DO feel for those people who entered the workforce after the advent of the 401(k), and the demise of traditional pensions. They were cut out of a secure retirement, and put adrift with their own preparations. Those who studied a little and set up proper savings, and did it early enough will do OK, but there was temptation to change jobs, raid retirement accounts, pay for kids' educations, buy big houses, etc. etc., and those folks will probably not retire as well-off as their parents did.
> 
> Jim (who contributed the max to his 401(k) and gets no pension)



There certainly were people that did this, but for the most part people were constantly forced out of their jobs. I know- I was one of them- takeover after takeover and layoffs after layoffs. Good thing I was good at getting new jobs. Then,, as Linda said, saved money- invested- learned all I could, only to have the stock market tank twice. I used IRA's and the small business I worked for didn't have a 401K until I had worked there almost 6 years! Then- after 8 years there forced out. On to another cruddy job. Lived in a handyman special for years - but expense of fixing up the house and property and school taxes were equal to another salary! (currently $9000 plus on the house we have had now for 28 years) Never raided our retirement accounts. Did pay for our sons education $100,000 plus- that was a mistake. He would have been better off if we just gave him the money and he would have skipped college for the salary that he makes. The only ones that made out on that deal were the college professors.

This all said- grateful for what we have. It's a new world now. It will even be worse for our kids and grandkids.


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 22, 2015)

*Being Retired Is Outstanding.*




Chilcotin said:


> Is retirement overrated?


When you're retired, every day is like the 1st day of a 3-day weekend.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## "Roger" (Jun 22, 2015)

Perhaps the author should have written a companion article "Is the 50 hour work week overrated?"  

Do people work all that well with that sort of schedule even when young?  When you get into your 60's, it really becomes a burden.  If the author is going to advocate people work later into their lives, he needs to also recognize that a more humane work schedule will also be required (and with that, more people would be willing to continue on).


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

"Roger" said:


> Perhaps the author should have written a companion article "Is the 50 hour work week overrated?"
> 
> Do people work all that well with that sort of schedule even when young?  When you get into your 60's, it really becomes a burden.  If the author is going to advocate people work later into their lives, he needs to also recognize that a more humane work schedule will also be required (and with that, more people would be willing to continue on)
> 
> ...


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## pedro47 (Jun 22, 2015)

When you are fully retired there is no more Monday's morning or Friday's afternoon thinking about the job. When there is a snow storm or 5 inches of snow on the ground. You can just turn over in bed and go back to sleep.


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## Fern Modena (Jun 22, 2015)

Do *i* think retirement is overrated? H*ll no. I worked long and hard when I was young (think 50 hours in 4 days, plus a 10 hour 5th day) so that I could do less as I got older. I retired at age 52. Had I waited until I was 62, I would have already been a widow, so if only for that reason I am glad I didn't wait.

Yes, I have a government pension. Which I was lucky enough to "participate in," meaning I paid into it in an amount equal to what my employer paid. I also had a 457 account (similar to a 401K, but not exactly), which I paid ALL the funding for. I was able to use this to supplement my income until I got Social Security. 

I worked hard for my pension. I made a conscious decision early in my working life to stay with my employer no matter what, so I would have the pension. Twice during economic downturns I went three to five years with no raise at all. I still paid for my pension, social security, and the 457 account all at the same time, more of a burden than those of you who resent me for getting my pension.

I do feel bad for those of you who work hard and don't have access to pensions. It is unfortunate that you aren't being rewarded more for your work. 

I've never bragged about how much my pension is. I just wouldn't. My mom taught me it isn't polite to talk about money and/or religion with people you don't know well (and I don't do this with anybody outside family, truly). But if you feel you must hate me because I get a pension, then that's your business. Go ahead. Feel better now? Did it change anything?

Fern


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

pedro47 said:


> When you are fully retired there is no more Monday's morning or Friday's afternoon thinking about the job. When there is a snow storm or 5 inches of snow on the ground. You can just turn over in bed and go back to sleep.



Omg! That is definitely something to look forward to. I can't take it with driving in snow- trying to get out of the driveway at 7 in the morning! Wondering if I'll make it home.. I am so done! In fact- I think I was done BEFORE I started working! Lol!' :rofl:


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## am1 (Jun 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Omg! That is definitely something to look forward to. I can't take it with driving in snow- trying to get out of the driveway at 7 in the morning! Wondering if I'll make it home.. I am so done! In fact- I think I was done BEFORE I started working! Lol!' :rofl:



It seems if you want to change things you should just change them.  Change jobs, sell your house and move.  It is not worth waiting. It is easy to say you cannot but people who really want a change do it.


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## bogey21 (Jun 22, 2015)

Fern Modena said:


> I worked hard for my pension. I made a conscious decision early in my working life to stay with my employer no matter what, so I would have the pension. Twice during economic downturns I went three to five years with no raise at all.



Back in the late 80s when I was President of a Bank with over 100 employees I sat down with my longer term key employees and had a long discussion about salary and benefits.  Things were tough at the time and there was pressure from the Board of Directors to cut back on (and possibly eliminate) our Defined Benefit Pension Plan.  

We developed a plan to pretty much curtail raises using the money saved to preserve (and in some cases enhance) our Defined Benefit Plan.  It worked out great and all involved were happy when they retired.  It worked out great for the Bank too as all the key employees stayed around until they retired.  Less than 2 years after we left Management reversed what we had done; raised salaries dramatically; and replaced the Defined Benefit Plan with a 401k type plan.  Now they have trouble keeping key employees as all it takes for them to leave is a few thousand more dollars from another employer.

George


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

am1 said:


> It seems if you want to change things you should just change them.  Change jobs, sell your house and move.  It is not worth waiting. It is easy to say you cannot but people who really want a change do it.



I have no ambition left in me to change jobs. The thought of taking out a resume- going on interviews, getting the energy after work to even look for jobs- just ain't there anymore. I'm done. House will not sell right now. Need health insurance (get through hubby's job). Can't just quit jobs at our ages and expect to get decent paying jobs in a rural area.  Have you noticed the economy is in the toilet? 

In a holding pattern right now...


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## wilma (Jun 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Have you noticed the economy is in the toilet?



No, haven't noticed that at all, unemployment down, housing prices up, planes & hotels full, stock market at all-time high....


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## rapmarks (Jun 22, 2015)

AwayWeGo said:


> When you're retired, every day is like the 1st day of a 3-day weekend.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



you are so right, it is highly underrated
and Fern, you said it all


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

wilma said:


> No, haven't noticed that at all, unemployment down, housing prices up, planes & hotels full, stock market at all-time high....



Not here in rural Sullivan County, NY! Glut of homes on the market- not selling for years! Prices way down- barely any appreciation in over 30 years! Social and tax issues..Taxes outrageous and no services. I guess the state of the economy is area specific..

(BTW- I know someone who works in NYC. He hasn't had a raise in 5 years (makes a 6 figure salary at least and does have a pension). He is 37 years old. Sent out hundreds of resumes- nothing. His girlfriend who has a PHD has had a terrible time getting a job- so much so that she went back to school to be a veterinary tech which will be a very low salary. With all that, they can barely afford the rent in Brooklyn. They looked into North Carolina- hard there also. Still working on it.)


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## wilma (Jun 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Not here in rural Sullivan County, NY! Glut of homes on the market- not selling for years! Prices way down- barely any appreciation in over 30 years! Social and tax issues..Taxes outrageous and no services. I guess the state of the economy is area specific..



For most of the country the economy is not "in the toilet".


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

wilma said:


> For most of the country the economy is not "in the toilet".[/QUOT
> 
> Well- good for all of those people in those states! Wish I was in their situation!


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## wilma (Jun 22, 2015)

I have never heard a public employee "brag" about their pension or how much money they are getting. Resenting those with pensions is really a misguided waste of energy. If you really wanted a defined pension you should have looked for a government job instead of resenting and hating those who have one, total waste of time and energy.


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

wilma said:


> I have never heard a public employee "brag" about their pension or how much money they are getting. Resenting those with pensions is really a misguided waste of energy. If you really wanted a defined pension you should have looked for a government job instead of resenting and hating those who have one, total waste of time and energy.



Are you talking to me because I didn't say any such things as you are stating!

What are you talking about?

BTW- I started in a civil service job at 16 and stopped at 21. Decided I didn't want to work there.  Many of the people there were way too slow moving for me.

But- since you brought it up- here is a letter I just sent to our town supervisor this evening as we are having so many budget issues here in our town:

 Former Town Attorney XXXXX  has been receiving health insurance premiums paid for by the Town, we taxpayers, under a 2005 resolution which makes this possible for retirees. But the major requirement to receive this benefit is a minimum of 20 YEARS OF CONTINUOUS SERVICE.  He had a BREAK IN EMPLOYMENT WITH THE TOWN 2000-2002." Therefore,  he does not qualify,  and the present Town Board has not stopped payment. Who exactly authorized this payment?  

I also feel that that 2005 resolution should be terminated as the residents in this town cannot afford the taxes. The days of getting lifetime retiree health insurance paid for by the public, who themselves do not even have such a benefit, are over. Same goes with pensions. I wish we all could afford it and everyone could have those great benefits, but it is just not sustainable. Public service is just that- public service - not a way to get rich on the backs of hard working taxpayers. As we all struggle, our roads are deteriorating and we have limited services and these rich perks for employees continue. We appreciate all their hard work, but there are just some things that are, unfortunately, no longer affordable, if they ever were.

Something has to be done about this now. It has been brought up at other meetings and still no answers. I await your reply. Thank you.

Sincerely,
mpumilia


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## wilma (Jun 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Are you talking to me because I didn't say any such things as you are stating!
> 
> What are you talking about?
> 
> BTW- I started in a civil service job at 16 and stopped at 21. Decided I didn't want to work there.  Many of the people there were way too slow moving for me.



What am I talking about? 





mpumilia said:


> You hit the nail on the head here, Linda. This so resonates with me.






vacationhopeful said:


> And I have listened to 'friends' with government pension plans 'brag' how smart they were and how much they get from their pension each month ... I been cutting them out of my life at least the last 15+ years.


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

Well, yes, Wilma, it did because I read some things some individuals write and many times they can reek of arrogance, with assumptions that those "without" were stupid or made bad decisions, which can be the case, but not always. We all make choices in life, but also bad things happen to good people. There is luck of the draw and no reason for those "with" to belittle those "without".  I don't resent or hate anybody and it is YOU who are doing the hating and resenting.

You worked hard and have a pension- excellent for you. Enjoy your life and be happy! I'm happy even without a pension!


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## wilma (Jun 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> BTW- I started in a civil service job at 16 and stopped at 21. Decided I didn't want to work there.  Many of the people there were way too slow moving for me.



Fine, your choice, but the public employee bashing is tiresome. You made some choices and they haven't turned out well, move on.


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## wilma (Jun 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> You worked hard and have a pension- excellent for you. Enjoy your life and be happy! I'm happy even without a pension!



Really, you know nothing about my personal situation, I don't harp and whine about it on TUG.


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

wilma said:


> Fine, your choice, but the public employee bashing is tiresome. You made some choices and they haven't turned out well, move on.



Despite everything, I am actually doing quite well. We all have our karma to deal with. I don't need to move on- I think it's you need to move on from the attitude you have brought to this thread. 

Peace out.


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## VacationForever (Jun 22, 2015)

wilma said:


> For most of the country the economy is not "in the toilet".



http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/why-the-middle-class-is-not-feeling-a-recovery/

Yes it is.  Enough news about income is flat to down for the middle class in this "recovery".  Here is a link from PBS.


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## wilma (Jun 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Despite everything, I am actually doing quite well. We all have our karma to deal with. I don't need to move on- I think it's you need to move on from the attitude you have brought to this thread.
> 
> Peace out.



Great, you are doing well, so we don't need to hear anymore whining about no pension and how you may never retire....


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## WinniWoman (Jun 22, 2015)

wilma said:


> Great, you are doing well, so we don't need to hear anymore whining about no pension and how you may never retire....



Wilma! Are you smoking something? I didn't say I would never retire! And I am not whining at all! Just having a discussion with fellow Tuggers about retirement and so forth.

I think you have a complex.


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## VacationForever (Jun 22, 2015)

sptung said:


> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/why-the-middle-class-is-not-feeling-a-recovery/
> 
> Yes it is.  Enough news about income is flat to down for the middle class in this "recovery".  Here is a link from PBS.



Another one wrt real income.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...rs-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/


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## wilma (Jun 22, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Wilma! Are you smoking something? I didn't say I would never retire! And I am not whining at all! Just having a discussion with fellow Tuggers about retirement and so forth.
> 
> I think you have a complex.



Yes, if I disagree with you and call you out on your pension resentment, then I must have a complex....


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 22, 2015)

sptung said:


> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/why-the-middle-class-is-not-feeling-a-recovery/
> 
> Yes it is.  Enough news about income is flat to down for the middle class in this "recovery".  Here is a link from PBS.





sptung said:


> Another one wrt real income.
> 
> http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...rs-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/





mpumilia said:


> Wilma! Are you smoking something? I didn't say I would never retire! And I am not whining at all! Just having a discussion with fellow Tuggers about retirement and so forth.
> <snip>





wilma said:


> Yes, if I disagree with you and call you out on your pension resentment, then I must have a complex....



Wilma ... this thread had been extremely civil for the most part. You seem to be in the attack mode but mpumilla clearly stated they have socked away retirement funds ... but have been waiting to unload their house which has depreciated.

Suggest you READ the links provided by sptung above posted before in  this very thread.

It has been my posts - not whining about my retirement options ... just about retirees who brag about their defined pension plans funded by the government ... these are people who I have known for YEARS ... making multiple verbal and written bragging comments about how superior their life is over those of us in the small business or private sector. It gets REAL OLD, real quick ... esp if my bills (property taxes mainly) go up 10-15% every year as property values go down and neighboring houses are abandoned.

When a $85,000 house has a $8500 annual property tax bill ... just move to another of the 536 taxing community in my state for a better house with a lower tax bill ... sometimes within 1/2 mile as the crow flies. It is NOT urban decay ... it is liabilities of these OLDER towns of separate police forces, separate school systems, separate local government offices and OLDER housing stock. And heaven forbid, you have an inground home heating oil tank ... that is another $75000+ liability hung over these older homes.


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## Icc5 (Jun 22, 2015)

*Saved,invested,saved more*

I retired a few years ago at 62.  Yes, I have a pension.  I also made crap for wages and I stayed for the pension and benefits.  It didn't pay off for me till I retired after working in the grocery business for 42+ years.  I also saved every cent and invested.  Luckily I invested in the right stocks.  While everyone else enjoyed new cars,nice restaurants,parties,sport events,vacations, I saved.
First real vacation at 38,also first time on a plane.
Now I get to live the life everyone else did but I get to do it without any worries.
Some do it young, some old, whatever I am, now is my time.


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## tante (Jun 23, 2015)

I actually feel bad for the people here that struggled for years to be financially secure now. It is not like that anymore.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm


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## FLDVCFamily (Jun 23, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Wilma ... this thread had been extremely civil for the most part. You seem to be in the attack mode but mpumilla clearly stated they have socked away retirement funds ... but have been waiting to unload their house which has depreciated.
> 
> Suggest you READ the links provided by sptung above posted before in  this very thread.
> 
> ...



That is nuts. I'd move, and not to another local town. We DID move...my folks and my sister still live in New England, where they pay like 12K+ a year in property taxes and then crazy insurance to boot. DH and I saw the writing on the wall right before we turned 30 and we moved away. Unless you are super-rich, living in those high-tax areas is just no way to get ahead or to pay for retirement  It is very hard to watch my sister essentially running in place...she and her husband have great jobs, but they live in a house that is tiny, the baby's daycare is insanely expensive, and they need the 2 incomes just to get by. The stress is unreal. I don't think she sees a way out, but it's not going to get any easier later on and/or in retirement. 

As for retirement being overrated, I have no idea...we have no pensions, we save as much as we can in the 401K and Roth IRAs...time will tell. Who knows if we will even have social security or Medicare by then. We may not ever retire.


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## SmithOp (Jun 23, 2015)

tante said:


> I actually feel bad for the people here that struggled for years to be financially secure now. It is not like that anymore.
> 
> http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm




After reading this thread I'm less sympathetic, like I tell our son, we all make choices in this life.

According to this recent report the highest average property taxes are $3971, but some towns are exorbitant, people need to move.

http://www.cbsnews.com/media/the-9-states-with-the-highest-property-taxes/10/

With average annual property taxes of $3,971, the Garden State is growing some big real estate tax bills.

No other state asks residents to pay as much in real estate taxes as New Jersey, which has prompted Gov. Chris Christie to sign legislation in 2010 that limited tax hikes to 2 percent annually.

But that's not enough to keep homeowners in the state. Last year, New Jersey had the most outbound moves out of any state in the country, according to United Van Lines' annual national movers study.

The pain isn't equally distributed across New Jersey, given that some towns have significantly higher bills than others. The small town of Tavistock, located in Camden County, had an average property tax bill of $25,346 last year. The average residential property value in that town is about $1.5 million.

Less affluent towns had lower property tax bills, such as Camden City in Camden County, where homeowners on average paid $1,485 in property tax last year.


Sent from my iPad using the strange new version of Tapatalk


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## wilma (Jun 23, 2015)

vacationhopeful said:


> Wilma ... this thread had been extremely civil for the most part.



If you want to deny that you and mpumilia have been shaming those with pensions, then great. :zzz::zzz: I never said that income inequality and stagnant wages don't exist, I questioned the assertion that the economy is in the toilet.


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## VacationForever (Jun 23, 2015)

wilma said:


> I questioned the assertion that the economy is in the toilet.



It is in the tank because there are enough reports out while we have "recovered" from the recent recession and unemployment has gone down, many higher income jobs have essentially disappeared and lower income jobs have been added.  Also many gave up looking and those numbers are dropped from the unemployment numbers.  The median household income was about $56K from pre-recession and it is now $51K.  When I have time to google I will post a few links.


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## theo (Jun 23, 2015)

Voluntarily deleted my post; I don't want to provide or in any way encourage more ill will and / or "back and forth" finger-pointing, whether overt or merely implied.


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## tashamen (Jun 23, 2015)

SmithOp said:


> According to this recent report the highest average property taxes are $3971, but some towns are exorbitant, *people need to move*.
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/media/the-9-states-with-the-highest-property-taxes/10/



We live in Vermont which, according to this article has the 9th highest average property taxes.  But ours are almost double what that average is for the state.

While we'd love to move that is not a viable option right now, which I suspect is true for many folks.  I commute nearly an hour to my job in NH because it pays so much better than what I made before in VT.  But if we were to move to NH our property taxes would be even higher.  (Though at least I wouldn't have to pay VT income tax on my NH income, but that's another harangue I won't get into!)


----------



## FLDVCFamily (Jun 23, 2015)

tashamen said:


> We live in Vermont which, according to this article has the 9th highest average property taxes.  But ours are almost double what that average is for the state.
> 
> While we'd love to move that is not a viable option right now, which I suspect is true for many folks.  I commute nearly an hour to my job in NH because it pays so much better than what I made before in VT.  But if we were to move to NH our property taxes would be even higher.  (Though at least I wouldn't have to pay VT income tax on my NH income, but that's another harangue I won't get into!)



It's so, so hard to move, and honestly I think in New England especially people feel like they can't...but it's possible if you want to badly enough or if you just reach your breaking point. Once the downsides outweighed the upsides for us, we just cut bait and did it. Moving was the only option to ever get our heads above water in order to raise a family and save for retirement. Was it easy? No. 10 years out, are we far better off because we did it? Absolutely.

NH property taxes are ridiculous from what I've seen. I can't believe what my folks pay and what little they get for it.


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## theo (Jun 23, 2015)

FLDVCFamily said:


> <snip>
> NH property taxes are ridiculous from what I've seen. I can't believe what my folks pay and what little they get for it.



NH makes a big deal of the fact that they have no state income tax and no sales tax, but they *more* than make up for that "benefit" with truly punitive property taxes. One also seriously wonders about the quality of grade school and high school education there too (...at least I do).

"Live Free or Die" indeed.


----------



## am1 (Jun 23, 2015)

tashamen said:


> We live in Vermont which, according to this article has the 9th highest average property taxes.  But ours are almost double what that average is for the state.
> 
> While we'd love to move that is not a viable option right now, which I suspect is true for many folks.  I commute nearly an hour to my job in NH because it pays so much better than what I made before in VT.  But if we were to move to NH our property taxes would be even higher.  (Though at least I wouldn't have to pay VT income tax on my NH income, but that's another harangue I won't get into!)



Unless people vote with their feet nothing will change.  Also remember that these taxes are going to benefit people in the communities and states where they are paid.  

Are states and counties at least breaking even?


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## Elan (Jun 23, 2015)

theo said:


> NH makes a big deal of the fact that they have no state income tax, but they *more* than make up for that "benefit" with truly punitive property taxes.
> 
> "Live Free or Die" indeed.



  States have to generate revenue.  Oregon is similar to NH.  No sales tax, but income/property taxes are high.

  Pick your poison.


----------



## theo (Jun 23, 2015)

*"Trickle down" doesn't actually "trickle" at all...*



am1 said:


> Are states and counties at least breaking even?



I don't want to steer this discussion sideways in a "political" direction, but I strongly recommend a directly relevant documentary film entitled "We're Not Broke". 
I watched it just the other night (streamed via Netflix). 

The documentary addresses in clear, specific and painful detail how *so* many U.S. based multinational corporations pay *absolutely nothing* in U.S. income taxes on their *billions* of dollars in profits. With negatively impacted U.S. Treasury revenues, there is obviously then much less available in the till for Federal programs or agencies, education support and / or distribution to states, counties, cities and towns. The underlying theme of the documentary is that working people pay their fair share of taxes and generally have to fund their own retirements, while the big multinational corporations pay *nothing* on their billions in profits, using U.S. tax code loopholes (which their lobbyists actually *help*  to write) and offshore "parking" and "transfers" of *billions* in order to pay *zero* (instead of the established 35% corporate tax rate in the U.S.). 
I'm guessing their execs are having *no* such retirement conversations or concerns such as those from folks (who presumably pay their due taxes) within this thread. 

Specifically singled out for detailed scorn (with facts and figures carefully and precisely provided)  within the documentary were General Electric, Citibank, Verizon, Pfizer, Bank of America, General Motors and assorted others which, individually and / or collectively, all pay exactly *nothing* in U.S. taxes. You might also recognize several of those names as having been beneficiaries of "bailouts" (with *your* paid U.S. income tax money, btw) earlier this decade. How about *you* --- ready to retire yet?


----------



## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

FLDVCFamily said:


> That is nuts. I'd move, and not to another local town. We DID move...my folks and my sister still live in New England, where they pay like 12K+ a year in property taxes and then crazy insurance to boot. DH and I saw the writing on the wall right before we turned 30 and we moved away. Unless you are super-rich, living in those high-tax areas is just no way to get ahead or to pay for retirement  It is very hard to watch my sister essentially running in place...she and her husband have great jobs, but they live in a house that is tiny, the baby's daycare is insanely expensive, and they need the 2 incomes just to get by. The stress is unreal. I don't think she sees a way out, but it's not going to get any easier later on and/or in retirement.
> 
> As for retirement being overrated, I have no idea...we have no pensions, we save as much as we can in the 401K and Roth IRAs...time will tell. Who knows if we will even have social security or Medicare by then. We may not ever retire.



This is the problem. Many of us can't move for various reasons. Have to keep jobs: no buyers, etc. Just think about it- who today is going to buy a house with $10,000 per year in school and property taxes alone? In a rural area very far from the BIG city with deteriorating roads and no local jobs?


----------



## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

tashamen said:


> We live in Vermont which, according to this article has the 9th highest average property taxes.  But ours are almost double what that average is for the state.
> 
> While we'd love to move that is not a viable option right now, which I suspect is true for many folks.  I commute nearly an hour to my job in NH because it pays so much better than what I made before in VT.  But if we were to move to NH our property taxes would be even higher.  (Though at least I wouldn't have to pay VT income tax on my NH income, but that's another harangue I won't get into!)



Our two favorite places and the two states where we own our timeshares. I really would love to retire in Vermont, but NH is a consideration because of our son living there and the no income tax/sales tax (and the politics). But- looking at homes there- not cheap unless in the boonies and rents high and as you said- property taxes. But- the property taxes there are nothing compared to ours in NY. Not really seeing any retirement communities there on-line. Also, we find vacationing in Vermont less expensive than in NH. I guess you just can't win in New England. We are not really the "south" types, but maybe North Carolina- but don't know anyone there. 

Anyway for now we also have to stay put due to jobs and have to wait for SS and Medicare- if we make it. LOL!


----------



## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

SmithOp said:


> After reading this thread I'm less sympathetic, like I tell our son, we all make choices in this life.
> 
> According to this recent report the highest average property taxes are $3971, but some towns are exorbitant, people need to move.
> 
> ...



When you talk about property tax- does that include school? In Orange County NY  where I work many houses in the southern tier are paying about $20,000 per year for both combined!


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## x3 skier (Jun 23, 2015)

When I graduated, I had the opportunity to work in several states. I also had the opportunity to work for the USAF as an engineer at a significantly lower salary or a number of private industries. 

I chose the USAF and Ohio and never regretted it. During my career, I lived in a few other states for a year or more at a time and was always happy my residence was in Ohio where I returned and where taxes and other cost of living expenses were and still are absolutely more reasonable than the right or left coasts. 

As I noted earlier, life is good for those who choose wisely and live within their means. Talking to some other classmates at our 50 year reunion, some did much better, a few did worse but all of us are more or less happy with our careers and our current status, except perhaps those with health issues.

Cheers


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## rapmarks (Jun 23, 2015)

theo said:


> I don't want to take this discussion in a "political" direction, but I strongly recommend a directly relevant documentary entitled "We're Not Broke". I watched it just the other night (streamed via Netflix).
> 
> Essentially, the documentary points out in clear, specific and very painful detail how so many U.S. based multinational corporations pay *absolutely nothing* in U.S. income taxes on their *billions* of dollars in profits. With the consequently negatively impacted U.S. Treasury revenues, there is obviously then much less in the coffers to be distributed to states, counties, cities and towns. The obvious underlying theme of the documentary was that working people all have to pay their share of taxes and fund their own retirements, while the big multinational corporations pay *nothing* on their billions in profits, using tax code loopholes and offshore "parking" of money to pay *zero*, instead of the established 35% corporate tax rate in the U.S.. I'm guessing that *their* execs are having *no* such retirement conversations or concerns...
> 
> Specifically singled out for detailed scorn (with facts and figures carefully and precisely provided)  within the documentary were General Electric, Citibank, Verizon, Pfizer, Bank of America, General Motors and assorted others which, individually and / or collectively, all pay exactly *nothing* in U.S. taxes. You might also recognize several of those names as having been beneficiaries of "bailouts" (with *your* paid U.S. income tax money, btw) earlier this decade. How about *you* --- ready to retire yet?



so absolutely disgusting!


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## LisaH (Jun 23, 2015)

If you can afford to buy a house in HI, it would be a nice place to retire. Sales tax is low (4%ish), and property tax is even lower. For a 700K house, the property tax is less than $2000 a year. See this listing.


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## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

x3 skier said:


> When I graduated, I had the opportunity to work in several states. I also had the opportunity to work for the USAF as an engineer at a significantly lower salary or a number of private industries.
> 
> I chose the USAF and Ohio and never regretted it. During my career, I lived in a few other states for a year or more at a time and was always happy my residence was in Ohio where I returned and where taxes and other cost of living expenses were and still are absolutely more reasonable than the right or left coasts.
> 
> ...



Yeah- well taxes weren't high back in 1977 when we got married and bought our first house- a handyman special- at age 21. Did not ever imagine them getting this high. We did a lot of things right, but who knew the economy in our area would change? We didn't have a crystal ball back then- wish we did!


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## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

LisaH said:


> If you can afford to buy a house in HI, it would be a nice place to retire. Sales tax is low (4%ish), and property tax is even lower. For a 700K house, the property tax is less than $2000 a year. See this listing.[/QUOTE)
> 
> I thought all the land in HI was leased? How are the rents?


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## Lets Get Going (Jun 23, 2015)

Bravo, Fern!

You worked hard for your pension, you deserve it.  Enjoy it.


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## pedro47 (Jun 23, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> LisaH said:
> 
> 
> > If you can afford to buy a house in HI, it would be a nice place to retire. Sales tax is low (4%ish), and property tax is even lower. For a 700K house, the property tax is less than $2000 a year. See this listing.[/QUOTE)
> ...


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## FLDVCFamily (Jun 23, 2015)

theo said:


> NH makes a big deal of the fact that they have no state income tax and no sales tax, but they *more* than make up for that "benefit" with truly punitive property taxes. One also seriously wonders about the quality of grade school and high school education there too (...at least I do).
> 
> "Live Free or Die" indeed.



Didn't NH keep getting bagged by the courts for unconstitutionally funding their town schools out of property taxes? It essentially created a system where the rich towns had better funded schools than the less-rich towns? It seemed like they were in no hurry to change this, although perhaps they have by now. No doubt, some towns there have very good schools...but from what I've seen in my family, a whole lot don't.

The property taxes there are nuts.


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## FLDVCFamily (Jun 23, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> This is the problem. Many of us can't move for various reasons. Have to keep jobs: no buyers, etc. Just think about it- who today is going to buy a house with $10,000 per year in school and property taxes alone? In a rural area very far from the BIG city with deteriorating roads and no local jobs?



Could it be sold as a second home? My folks finally sold their second home in the boonies of NH, but it was on the market for 2 years. I'm fairly certain that it was bought as a second home.


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## FLDVCFamily (Jun 23, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Our two favorite places and the two states where we own our timeshares. I really would love to retire in Vermont, but NH is a consideration because of our son living there and the no income tax/sales tax (and the politics). But- looking at homes there- not cheap unless in the boonies and rents high and as you said- property taxes. But- the property taxes there are nothing compares to ours in NY. Not really seeing any retirement communities there on-line. Also, we find vacationing in Vermont less expensive than in NH.* I guess you just can't win in New England. We are not really the "south" types, but maybe North Carolina- but don't know anyone there. *
> 
> Anyway for now we also have to stay put due to jobs and have to wait for SS and Medicare- if we make it. LOL!



You'll meet people  I can't say that I'm a south type or a north type...I'm kinda a "when in Rome" type I guess. You can meet friends anywhere


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## Fern Modena (Jun 23, 2015)

Ah, dear, but it is all about the planning, and what you are willing to do to plan for your future. I was married in 1978, and lived in an apartment for the first few years. When we bought our first house, after about five years, we bought a smallish house an hour away from work because that was all we could afford. Many of my coworkers lived in closer houses, but they weren't paying child support. I chose to fall in love with a man who had four children by his "practice wife," and who was honorable enough to always support his children.

From the first we did without, paying social security, pension deductions, paying into 457 accounts, bimonthly $100. savings bonds (for "someday when we could go to Europe." We spent five weeks there in 1999, including a cruise and two timeshare weeks), health and disability insurance, etc. My "take home" pay rarely exceeded my deductions.

When we moved here twelve years ago, we had to take a mortgage for part of the cost of our house, but we figured what we could afford before we decided to move. Moving from high cost California helped, once the courts decided that "source taxes" were illegal. Otherwise I don't know if we would have moved.

When housing was booming, many of our acquaintances began using their houses as their personal ATM's, re-fiing and taking money out several times. Then the economy crashed, and they were left with mortgages that were more than their houses were worth. Several people I knew walked away from their houses and left the state, going to live with children. I felt (somewhat) sorry for them, but it is poor planning to depend on your house prices to sustain such an increase.

Fern





mpumilia said:


> Yeah- well taxes weren't high back in 1977 when we got married and bought our first house- a handyman special- at age 21. Did not ever imagine them getting this high. We did a lot of things right, but who knew the economy in our area would change? We didn't have a crystal ball back then- wish we did!


----------



## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

Fern Modena said:


> Ah, dear, but it is all about the planning, and what you are willing to do to plan for your future. I was married in 1978, and lived in an apartment for the first few years. When we bought our first house, after about five years, we bought a smallish house an hour away from work because that was all we could afford. Many of my coworkers lived in closer houses, but they weren't paying child support. I chose to fall in love with a man who had four children by his "practice wife," and who was honorable enough to always support his children.
> 
> From the first we did without, paying social security, pension deductions, paying into 457 accounts, bimonthly $100. savings bonds (for "someday when we could go to Europe." We spent five weeks there in 1999, including a cruise and two timeshare weeks), health and disability insurance, etc. My "take home" pay rarely exceeded my deductions.
> 
> ...



I am the epidemy of a planner- OCD. That is why I never had any issues with exchanging our timeshare! LOL!

Not only that- I am very frugal and so is my husband. Our house has been paid off for many years. Our original mortgage was a 15 year and we even paid that off early, so no issues. No debt. Been putting money in an IRA since I was in my 20's. I am no dope and beyond responsible- maybe too much so!

However- you can only plan so much because life is what happens when you are making other plans as the saying goes. We couldn't just pick up and move, even though we wanted to when the housing boom occurred and we could have gotten great money for the house. We had gone through job changes and my husband needed to get rooted in a company for awhile. Our son was in high school. Hubby's  sisters over a few years both became ill and eventually died. I had my elderly parents to deal with, who are now deceased. Things happen to people and their families.  Unfortunately, the boom times didn't continue to give us a chance to regroup. That's life. 

I guess maybe for some people they plan  and maybe have better luck and their lives just are rolled up in one neat little package and everything works out for them, but not so for everybody.

This all said- looking forward to leaving the grind someday- I have lot's of plans- a BIG list! Some will hopefully happen and I am sure others won't but that's the way it is!


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## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

FLDVCFamily said:


> Could it be sold as a second home? My folks finally sold their second home in the boonies of NH, but it was on the market for 2 years. I'm fairly certain that it was bought as a second home.




I don't care how it is sold when the times comes, as long as it is sold. Is possible. The thing that will be key is if we can get enough money from the sale to purchase something else because we will not dip into our savings to make up any big difference. Right now our house- which was new when we bought it in 1987 and pumped a couple hundred thousand into over the years, (we are in year 4 of a 5 year remodeling plan right now  in fact) has barely appreciated. I am talking like maybe $50,000 since 1987! Most anything I have seen costs at least $100,000 more than we could get for our house, and I am talking fairly modest- even condos- in NH. VT we could do better. Obviously down south would be cheaper overall. But- we have several years yet, so maybe things will turn. Who knows what's to be anyway?


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## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

LisaH said:


> If you can afford to buy a house in HI, it would be a nice place to retire. Sales tax is low (4%ish), and property tax is even lower. For a 700K house, the property tax is less than $2000 a year. See this listing.




I wish! But- with the Association fees you are still laying out $800 or so per month.


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## Fern Modena (Jun 23, 2015)

Lives rolled up in neat little packages, etc., etc? In the time you are talking about, I've lost everybody who was dear to me except for one sister. I have no parents, no aunts, no uncles, no first cousins, and only the one sibling left. Not exactly what I planned, either. 

Hopefully I'm done with this now, cause it really doesn't matter anyway.

Fern



mpumilia said:


> I am the epidemy of a planner- OCD. That is why I never had any issues with exchanging our timeshare! LOL!
> I guess maybe for some people they plan  and maybe have better luck and their lives just are rolled up in one neat little package and everything works out for them, but not so for everybody.
> 
> This all said- looking forward to leaving the grind someday- I have lot's of plans- a BIG list! Some will hopefully happen and I am sure others won't but that's the way it is!


----------



## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

Fern Modena said:


> Lives rolled up in neat little packages, etc., etc? In the time you are talking about, I've lost everybody who was dear to me except for one sister. I have no parents, no aunts, no uncles, no first cousins, and only the one sibling left. Not exactly what I planned, either.
> 
> Hopefully I'm done with this now, cause it really doesn't matter anyway.
> 
> Fern



Oh, Fern! I hear you! I wasn't saying YOUR life was like that. Just when people in general  say something is happening to someone because they don't plan, I was just making a point that it isn't necessarily so.

I don't think these posts come across the right way sometimes no matter how hard we try to explain ourselves.

I relate, because we have little family around as well. Gets lonely.


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## csxjohn (Jun 23, 2015)

As I got on the road to visit my grand daughter this morning I was very thankful that I'm retired. I worked out doors for the most part and the rain was coming down.

I thought about the days I had to start work in those conditions and the days storms popped up out of nowhere.

For me retirement is not over rated.


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## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

csxjohn said:


> As I got on the road to visit my grand daughter this morning I was very thankful that I'm retired. I worked out doors for the most part and the rain was coming down.
> 
> I thought about the days I had to start work in those conditions and the days storms popped up out of nowhere.
> 
> For me retirement is not over rated.



I get it. I kind of work outside- well- sort of. I drive around all day to doctors offices, getting in and out of the car at least 15- 20 times each day. Today they were expecting hail/rain\/thunder storms/ possible tornadoes. I luckily beat it on the way home. I always dread the snow storms- those are the worst.

When the wknd. rolls around I hate to get in my car and usually don't. It feels so good to keep my feet planted on the floor and in one place for two days!

Enjoy your granddaughter John!

Mary Ann


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## Tia (Jun 23, 2015)

Interested in watching the documentary , just got Netflix, thanks. 

 Retirement is a nice dream but a worry. Have told my kids it's worth considering jobs with government as the retirement is worth every penny imho.



theo said:


> I don't want to steer this discussion sideways in a "political" direction, but I strongly recommend a directly relevant documentary film entitled "We're Not Broke".
> I watched it just the other night (streamed via Netflix).
> 
> Essentially, the documentary points out in clear, specific and very painful detail how *so* many U.S. based multinational corporations pay *absolutely nothing* in U.S. income taxes on their *billions* of dollars in profits. With negatively impacted U.S. Treasury revenues, there is obviously then much less in the coffers for Federal programs, agencies and / or distribution to states, counties, cities and towns. The underlying theme of the documentary was that working people pay their fair share of taxes and generally have to fund their own retirements, while the big multinational corporations pay *nothing* on their billions in profits, using U.S. tax code loopholes (which their lobbyists actually *help* Congress to write) and offshore "parking" and "transfers" of *billions* in order to pay *zero* (instead of the established 35% corporate tax rate in the U.S.).
> ...


----------



## Passepartout (Jun 23, 2015)

In answer to the postulate in the original post, and from information posted by others, I think I can put it like this: If one plans and saves and invests to cover the financial side, and has activities they enjoy that are not dependent on others, retirement is a new day to look forward to every day that one can hardly wait to face. 

But if retirement is something that just happens. Put in your years, and when your 65th year comes along, you no longer go to the job you presumably enjoyed. Life as it was known is no more. If one stayed in a former life (too big house, job with no future or enjoyment, weather you don't like and can't do anything about) too long, and didn't take their future in their own hands, retirement becomes a ball-and-chain. Inescapable drudgery, Kids are gone. Vacations? From what??? 

Heaven's waiting room.

Bottom line: Make a plan. Follow it. Save. Be active, DO SOMETHING! Retirement can be the best time of your life.

Jim


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## DavidnRobin (Jun 23, 2015)

^^^^ this ^^^^ is my approach as well.

588 days... (not that I am counting...)

LOL - 'I don't want to make this political, but...'


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## WinniWoman (Jun 23, 2015)

Passepartout said:


> In answer to the postulate in the original post, and from information posted by others, I think I can put it like this: If one plans and saves and invests to cover the financial side, and has activities they enjoy that are not dependent on others, retirement is a new day to look forward to every day that one can hardly wait to face.
> 
> But if retirement is something that just happens. Put in your years, and when your 65th year comes along, you no longer go to the job you presumably enjoyed. Life as it was known is no more. If one stayed in a former life (too big house, job with no future or enjoyment, weather you don't like and can't do anything about) too long, and didn't take their future in their own hands, retirement becomes a ball-and-chain. Inescapable drudgery, Kids are gone. Vacations? From what???
> 
> ...



Great advice Jim! Proactive is my middle name!


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## lizap (Jun 23, 2015)

Company or even pensions of local and state government are not necessarily as secure as some think.  There are countless examples of companies that have gone under with pensions being gutted.  They are protected by the Federal Pension Act up to a relatively modest amount. Many state pensions are significantly underfunded.  Recently I have read (can't recall where) where some courts have ruled in favor of states being able to reduce state pensions.  So, while, I do not have a company or state/local government pension, we do have  retirement savings that should provide for us in our later years.  I don't have to worry about a company or state/local government pension being reduced or eliminated.


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## bogey21 (Jun 23, 2015)

lizap said:


> Company or even pensions of local and state government are not necessarily as secure as some think.



You are so right.  I live on a pension and am always looking over my shoulder at two things, the solvency of the entity paying the pension and inflation. I can only monitor the former but protect myself against the latter with gold and silver coins. 

George


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## WinniWoman (Jun 24, 2015)

bogey21 said:


> You are so right.  I live on a pension and am always looking over my shoulder at two things, the solvency of the entity paying the pension and inflation. I can only monitor the former but protect myself against the latter with gold and silver coins.
> 
> George



Yes. And a good case for people to take a lump sum payment on your pension if allowed when you retire and investing the money yourself.


----------



## WinniWoman (Jun 24, 2015)

lizap said:


> Company or even pensions of local and state government are not necessarily as secure as some think.  There are countless examples of companies that have gone under with pensions being gutted.  They are protected by the Federal Pension Act up to a relatively modest amount. Many state pensions are significantly underfunded.  Recently I have read (can't recall where) where some courts have ruled in favor of states being able to reduce state pensions.  So, while, I do not have a company or state/local government pension, we do have  retirement savings that should provide for us in our later years.  I don't have to worry about a company or state/local government pension being reduced or eliminated.



My husbands' private pension was cut off at the knees just a couple of years ago. Screwed BIG TIME just when he only has about 5 years left until he retires. 

I also know someone who was laid off and has a vested private pension. He was hoping to take the money to use until he reached SS age and move to Florida for cheaper living. But, he is not entitled to the money until he reaches SS age, so he has had to find work again. Meanwhile, he is hoping that that pension money will still be there when he finally does retire. Stuck until then.


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## VacationForever (Jun 24, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> My husbands' private pension was cut off at the knees just a couple of years ago. Screwed BIG TIME just when he only has about 5 years left until he retires.
> 
> I also know someone who was laid off and has a vested private pension. He was hoping to take the money to use until he reached SS age and move to Florida for cheaper living. But, he is not entitled to the money until he reaches SS age, so he has had to find work again. Meanwhile, he is hoping that that pension money will still be there when he finally does retire. Stuck until then.



Your friend's pension should be protected by Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.


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## bogey21 (Jun 24, 2015)

mpumilia said:


> Yes. And a good case for people to take a lump sum payment on your pension if allowed when you retire and investing the money yourself.



When I retired in 2000 my successor wanted to start fresh so we negotiated an Early Retirement Window for myself and 13 loyal long term employees.  I was the only one who took the annuity in order to provide a Survivor annuity for my ex-wife who is 20 years younger than me.  The other 12 took large lump sums (well over $1 million each).  9 of the 12 either spent the money or lost it in the stock market.  Only 3 managed it well.  My point is that the choice of a lump sum is an individual one and should be based on one's ability to manage money.   In hindsight I think a fair compromise would have been for most to have taken half in a lump sum and half in an annuity.

George


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## Passepartout (Jun 24, 2015)

bogey21 said:


> In hindsight I think a fair compromise would have been for most to have taken half in a lump sum and half in an annuity.



All well and good- and in  your example of all the recipients having 'well over a $million' half and half seems to offer both security and growth potential. But for the larger population of retirees whose 'pool' from which to dip is more modest, 'either/or' is more likely to be the choice. If at all.

If, like the majority of retirees today, there is NO pension. They have SS (if of age) and some combination of IRA and 401(k)s. There is no option to take SS as a lump sum, and due to tax implications, it would be extremely unwise to remove tax-advantaged retirement funds to invest in taxable accounts.

We should all be as fortunate and investment-wise as you were and are, George. Unfortunately, you are in the minority.

Jim


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## WinniWoman (Jun 24, 2015)

If you have a small pension amount- best to roll it into an IRA, in my opinion. To me, SS is the annuity.


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## am1 (Jun 24, 2015)

bogey21 said:


> When I retired in 2000 my successor wanted to start fresh so we negotiated an Early Retirement Window for myself and 13 loyal long term employees.  I was the only one who took the annuity in order to provide a Survivor annuity for my ex-wife who is 20 years younger than me.  The other 12 took large lump sums (well over $1 million each).  9 of the 12 either spent the money or lost it in the stock market.  Only 3 managed it well.  My point is that the choice of a lump sum is an individual one and should be based on one's ability to manage money.   In hindsight I think a fair compromise would have been for most to have taken half in a lump sum and half in an annuity.
> 
> George



Was the annuity payment the same as if your ex wife was the same age as you?  If so she made out real well in this situation.  

In response to others.  A lot of people should not be in control of their own money.  Next on that list should be the federal government.  I would trust a private company over the other two any day.


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## lizap (Jun 24, 2015)

Theare is a limit on the guaranteed amount, which in some cases is considerably less than the pension amount.




sptung said:


> Your friend's pension should be protected by Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.


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## bogey21 (Jun 24, 2015)

am1 said:


> Was the annuity payment the same as if your ex wife was the same age as you?  If so she made out real well in this situation.



It is set up as a 50% Survivor Annuity which means she gets half of what I get.  On the other hand the monthly 50% benefit she is entitled to will be more than she currently gets from me monthly per the divorce settlement.  So in a sense she will get a raise!!

George


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## chalee94 (Jun 24, 2015)

theo said:


> The documentary addresses in clear, specific and painful detail how *so* many U.S. based multinational corporations pay *absolutely nothing* in U.S. income taxes on their *billions* of dollars in profits.



that's not exactly true.

the companies are owned by shareholders.  when those companies make money, the stock price goes up and/or they pay out dividends.  those gains and dividends to the stockholders are taxed.  what you want is double taxation on the same earnings, which i have a philosophical problem with.

when i lose $3000 on stocks, i can take a deduction the next year for that amount.  when a corporation loses $500 million one year and makes $200 million the next year, they would still owe basically no taxes in the year they made money - there's nothing wrong with that either. corporations aren't obligated to pay more taxes than they required to, any more than individuals are (and like i said above, there's no real reason they should be taxed "as corporations" at all...other than there is the political ability to get away with it.)


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## VacationForever (Jun 24, 2015)

lizap said:


> Theare is a limit on the guaranteed amount, which in some cases is considerably less than the pension amount.



Yeah, and I can easily live off the limit on the guaranteed amount.  

http://www.pbgc.gov/wr/benefits/guaranteed-benefits/maximum-guarantee.html


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## Tia (Jun 24, 2015)

sptung said:


> ...protected by Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.



Haven't I read that it's in the RED??  

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/b...ses-to-nearly-62-billion.html?ref=topics&_r=0


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## VacationForever (Jun 24, 2015)

Tia said:


> Haven't I read that it's in the RED??
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/b...ses-to-nearly-62-billion.html?ref=topics&_r=0



It was signed into law earlier this year, to allow a drop in pension for underfunded multi-employer plans when certain conditions were met.  Some groups were immediately affected.  This move was made to ensure these pension funds don't go bankrupt which would in turn affect the PBGC.


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