# Dave Ramsey doesn't like timeshares



## kamumma1 (Jun 10, 2009)

Hi all -

Anyone ever heard of Dave Ramsey?  He's a big personal finance guy and has a radio and cable talk show.  He always says that timeshares are a bad idea as their value plumets after you buy them (which is true).  And the maintenance fees just continue to go up (also true).  He says it's better to just save up and go on vacation.  Anyone disagree?  I have to say that we have saved money with Marriott.  We are working the points system with travel packages and have gotten free airfare for 4 (except for the $40 booking fee) for 3 years in a row.  And stayed in some very nice Cat 6 hotels.  We didn't finance our 2 units so we aren't paying outrageous interest on them.  I really think we came out ahead - especially if you hold them for the long haul, and use the points system for travel packages.  Any thoughts?


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## TheTimeTraveler (Jun 10, 2009)

Dave Ramsey may be right.   The major advantage of a timeshare is that you are usually in a condo. with all the amenities of your home, i.e. kitchen, laundry, living room, multiple televisions, wifi, etc.

If you were to take a normal vacation without the use of a timeshare then you'd likely end up in a small one room motel/hotel.

There is a cost associated with timeshares, and it likely works out higher than motel/hotel use when all is said and done.


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 10, 2009)

*Has Dave Ramsey Ever Heard Of Resale Timeshares ?*

He's right about value plummeting immediately on those full-freight timeshares when they're bought from timeshare companies for big bux.  If he thinks doing that is a non-starter, financially speaking, I won't disagree.  

I even take it 1 step farther & say that nothing the timeshare companies sell at full freight is worth the money.

But paying nickels on the full-freight dollar is something else again.  I buy a timeshare cheap, & it's residual value hovers right there at approximately what it was when I bought it.  Little or no price plummeting involved in resale timeshares. 

Plus, via resale timeshares, I can vacation in spacious luxury accommodations for roughly Motel 6 & Super 8 rates -- a practical impossibility in full-freight timeshares. 

Buy timeshares resale.  Save thousands. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## aka Julie (Jun 10, 2009)

Suzie Orman feels the same way.


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 10, 2009)

*Has Suze Orman Ever Heard Of Resale Timeshares ?*

If all Suze & Dave know about timeshares is based on full-freight sales, then they have a major serious gap in their knowledge that they should fill by reading up on resale timeshares before they dispense timeshare advice on radio & TV. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## dougp26364 (Jun 10, 2009)

I wonder what sort of car Dave Ramsy drives or, does he take a taxi anywhere he wants to go? If he owns a car, I bet it's not the least expensive or even the most economical vehicle to own. I wonder what sort of house he lives in? Is it a large house that takes a lot of maintenance or is a a reasonable house that provides everything he needs without the extra expenses that come with high end neighborhoods.

Timeshare is not a logical purchase if you're into penny pinching. It's a luxury purchase that isn't going to save you money. It's a lifestyle purchase that's difficult to validate financially. 

There's always going to be someone out there making money by telling you how to spend you money. Dave is just another voice in an industry plagued with people telling me how I should live my life, how I should spend my money, what industry I should work in today, where I should live and what I should drive. I stopped listening to those bozo's long ago and my life's been all the better for it.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2009)

dougp26364 said:


> ... Timeshare is not a logical purchase if you're into penny pinching. It's a luxury purchase that isn't going to save you money. It's a lifestyle purchase that's difficult to validate financially. ...



Exactly.  I wouldn't expect folks like Dave or Suze to like timeshares - the concept goes against everything they say about incurring no unnecessary debts (maintenance fees?) and owning property outright.

But I don't see how they can say that you can travel in the exact same way as timesharing without purchasing into a system, because I sure couldn't.  Nevermind the fact that rental rates for my units are astronomical (for example, the notice in our Barony unit two weeks ago said rack rate was $850/nt,) it would be next to impossible to be able to find an available unit during a busy season.  Even if you found a discount and didn't have to pay rack rates, you'd still come up against the availability issue.

Dave and Suze can continue to hawk discount travel all they want, but for most of us here on TUG I think that style just doesn't give us what we want.


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## Stricky (Jun 10, 2009)

dougp26364 said:


> I wonder what sort of car Dave Ramsy drives or, does he take a taxi anywhere he wants to go? If he owns a car, I bet it's not the least expensive or even the most economical vehicle to own. I wonder what sort of house he lives in? Is it a large house that takes a lot of maintenance or is a a reasonable house that provides everything he needs without the extra expenses that come with high end neighborhoods.
> 
> Timeshare is not a logical purchase if you're into penny pinching. It's a luxury purchase that isn't going to save you money. It's a lifestyle purchase that's difficult to validate financially.
> 
> There's always going to be someone out there making money by telling you how to spend you money. Dave is just another voice in an industry plagued with people telling me how I should live my life, how I should spend my money, what industry I should work in today, where I should live and what I should drive. I stopped listening to those bozo's long ago and my life's been all the better for it.



 

Well said.


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## RandR (Jun 10, 2009)

Saying that owning a ts is a luxury is a good analogy.  Somewhere on TUG I found a calculator to figure out if owning a ts made sense for me.  I ran through a few iterations and most of them showed that I would "lose" as much as a few thousand dollars over 20 years. The way I see it, I am more than happy to "lose" that money for the opportunity to stay in a 2BR 2 Bath unit rather than a hotel room.  Plus, if/when I am able to l/o my unit and trade it for 2 weeks only paying a couple hundred dollars to do it, well then my "loss" is even smaller.


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## Da Wolf (Jun 10, 2009)

I personally have not seen, read, or heard Dave's "theories" on saving money. But my wife bought one of his books, and attended one of "classes" a feww years ago (before we got together, lol). I am like many of you. I don't need to pay someone to tell me how to spend my money, where to spend it, or anything else. They themselves are out just to make money. IMO they may say they are here to help you, but they are actually here to take money from you and put it into their pockets. If they were here to help me, they would be doing it for free. So, IMO he has no right to tell me how, where, or what I should do with my money. If I want to buy a TS or 5 TS then I am going to do it. As long as my family is well taken care of, my bills are paid, and we are not starving that is all that matters. Sorry for the rant, but people like him just piss me off. And besides, I travel a lot for work, and stay in crummy hotels around 40% of the year. A hotel is not where I want to stay while on a vacation. Sorry Dave....


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## littlestar (Jun 10, 2009)

Both Dave and Suze base their info on the majority of developer purchases where someone waddles in on vacation and doesn't do any research and buys on impulse, probably finances at 11 to 14% interest to boot, too. In those cases, I think they're probably dead-on in giving the advice they do. A lot of people that purchase on impulse and finance a timeshare are probably paying easily $3,000 and up a year when you count the maintenance fees and finance charges - that's crazy to me. The real kicker is a lot of people that I talk to that buy on impulse, they don't even use their week or trade it - simply amazing. And some if they want to get rid of it, they make it even worse by paying an upfront company to sell it. 

But as you know, we're not the norm on Tug. Without owning the resale Marriott and VRI weeks that I bought, no way would I have had access to the great vacations I have taken at the price I pay. I can't even stay in a Motel 6 hotel room for the price I'm paying for 2 bedroom condos. But I realize I'm not the norm.


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## ldanna (Jun 10, 2009)

For me, TS means quality family vacation. You won't get that on regular hotels.

Hotel is nice Bostonian shoes, TS is extra wide Crocs.
Hotel is wool gabardine, TS is fleece
Hotel is downtown, TS is beach
Hotel is sedan, TS is convertible
Hotel is wine, TS is champagne

Hotels and TS are great, the purpose is different. Regarding the price, if you buy developer, you have to keep it for 10 or 15 years to consider it a good investment. Resales nowadays, a great investment most of the time. MF: well you have to pay to use it!


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## Superchief (Jun 10, 2009)

I bought three of my timeshares prior to the downturn of the stock market. I believe they have retained more of their value than most major mutual funds over that time. 

In my mind, my timeshares are investments in vacationing and future retirement getaways. I value my vacations and need them. My timeshares provide an opportunity to go to great places affordably. IMO, I prefer them over condos or vacation homes. I can retire in an affordable location in the midwest or Carolinas, and spend a few weeks each year near the ocean, mountains, or desert.


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## RandR (Jun 10, 2009)

And, I forgot to mention all the money I save by being able to cook in the ts.  When we were last at Disney, all of our breakfasts were made in the room.  How much do you think that saved!!??  We bought bottled water that was able to stay cool in our fridge/freezer and then taken to the parks rather than buy $3 bottles there.  Heck, on sale we got 24 bottles for $2.99.

Plus the laundry facilities are awesome.  We pack half as many clothes, thereby avoiding the airlines fees, and can do laundry at our leisure rather than getting home and having to first start doing two pieces of luggage full.

As someone said, many people buy on impulse.  It's not even a resale vs direct argument.  Many of the impulse  uyers don't end up using the ts or certainly not to its potential.  For them, it was a bad purchase but that doesn't mean it's bad for everyone.


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## ace2000 (Jun 10, 2009)

Buying a timeshare from the developer or from the time share companies is foolish - anyone disagree? Good... we all agree with Dave and Susie then.

As far as the value of purchasing a timeshare any other method? That's where it get's complicated - with the many different ways to purchase a timeshare on the resale market.

To really understand their advice about the matter, you would have to fully understand exactly what they mean by "purchasing a timeshare". Personally, I'm not worried about it... sorry.

These type of discussions keep showing up on TUG, and it's always the same conclusion.


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## MOXJO7282 (Jun 10, 2009)

They are both right per se. But like many things in life there are some savvy people that aren't the norm, and they can and do, get tremendous value out of TS ownership. 

That is what TUG is made up of for the most part. Savvy individuals that aren't your normal TS owners, to say the least.

I know in the 10 years I've owned, I've received great value out of my ownership, and I even bought half my portfolio from Marriott when it made some sense on new resorts.

My big question is the long term viability. So far, value has kept pace with cost, IMHO. Yes MFs have gone up, but so has the cost to rent nice resorts, well up until the economic crash.

I do believe things will rebound and prices will stabilize, but we'll see.



For me my ROI has been outstanding. Even if I sold my portfolio in a fire sale today, in total I still would have a positive ROI when it comes to all the value I've received over the years.

Most TS owners outside of a small percentage, like those on TUG, can't say that, so this Dave character is actually correct for the most part.


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## ldanna (Jun 10, 2009)

RandR said:


> And, I forgot to mention all the money I save by being able to cook in the ts.  When we were last at Disney, all of our breakfasts were made in the room.  How much do you think that saved!!??  We bought bottled water that was able to stay cool in our fridge/freezer and then taken to the parks rather than buy $3 bottles there.  Heck, on sale we got 24 bottles for $2.99.



We can all affort a $3 bottle of water, but it is not nice, you don't feel good. I like to cook, and if you're with your family and/or friends, it's very funny. It's not about the money you're saving, but how great it is, and how you can amuze yourself. And could be a lot more healthy, too.

Once I read a study that showed that regular american milionaires are well married, and their wifes can cook really good, most of them attended cooking classes. So if you're on your third marriage and your wife can't cook, there's a good chance you're not a milionaire. In conclusion, probably milionaires go to TS.


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## CMF (Jun 10, 2009)

Compared to the folks on this forum, Dave and Suzy don't know beans about timeshares.

Charles


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## tombo (Jun 10, 2009)

ldanna said:


> Once I read a study that showed that regular american milionaires are well married, and their wifes can cook really good, most of them attended cooking classes. So if you're on your third marriage and your wife can't cook, there's a good chance you're not a milionaire. In conclusion, probably milionaires go to TS.



I have a couple of wealthy friends and they would never consider owning timeshares. I have talked about how wonderful they are and here are their reasons that they aren't interested.

1. They would be embarassed to tell their other rich friends that they owned a timeshare because the perception of timeshares and timeshare owners is so negative (I have working class friends who also make negative comments when I say that I own timeshares). 

2. They won't spend the time and effort needed to make a timeshare valuable. They dont want to reserve their vacations and air fares a year in advance. They don't want to have to be on the phone or on line 10 to 12 months in advance hoping to reserve a week in a location they want to visit. They simply pay what it costs to go where they want, when they want to go, and they reserve it whenever they decide to travel. They don't want to spend the time scouring II and RCI looking for good trades. When they decide to go on vacation (which is usually no more than 2 or 3 months in advance of their travel dates) they call a travel agent, tell them the dates and where they want to go, and they are through with vacation planning. The air tickets, car rentals, and room reservations are done and sent to them by the travel agent. If they want a 2 or 3 bed room condo, they tell the travel agent that is what they want. If they want a luxury hotel, they tell the travel agent. 

3. My rich friends tell me that they can travel cheaper through a travel agent than doing the booking themselves in most instances. From some of the trips they take, they travel cheaper than I do after doing a lot of work. One of my friends just got back from a week at St Johns, and the travel agent had them in the Westin for less than $2500 for the whole week including airfare for 2. Another friend went to St Thomas and his total for 4 nights 5 days R/T air for 2 was $1399. They often travel cheaper than we can by having travel agents call them with specials, and they don't have to do anything but say book it.

4. They say that they don't have the ability to plan vacations a year or more in advance due to changing demands at their work. They tell me that they could never be sure that they could take a trip they planned far in advance and that they never would attempt to plan a trip that far out unless it was for a major event like a wedding.

I can't speak for all millionaires, but the few I know don't like the timeshare concept at all.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2009)

ace2000 said:


> Buying a timeshare from the developer or from the time share companies is foolish - anyone disagree? Good... we all agree with Dave and Susie then.
> 
> As far as the value of purchasing a timeshare any other method? That's where it get's complicated - with the many different ways to purchase a timeshare on the resale market.
> 
> ...



Oh good gravy, does EVERY thread need to turn into a slam against developer-purchasers?!  You don't need to insult me and every other owner who bought the same way I did as "foolish" to get your point across.

And if you had any knowledge at all about both Dave Ramsey's and Suze Orman's programs, you'd know that they don't care one bit how much you paid for your timeshare.  No upfront dollar value could offset the fact that their idea of foolishness is to invest money in property that you don't own outright, and to which you need to pay yearly fees for use.

So there's your different conclusion.


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 10, 2009)

Interesting. We bought direct from Marriott, which I am still glad we did given Ile de France was still quite new at the time (there were not many resales and the savings on the 2 I found were about $2000 savings - the value of our gift for buying direct was worth more than that). 

Yes, we could have bought an American unit resale, but we bought the one Marriott we could drive to in tough times (like losing my job 2 weeks before our vacation this May, we went anyway - doubt we would have if flying).

But we feel it has been great value. We are a family of 4, and this last trip we took my MIL. It would have meant 2 rooms instead of 1. Because it was a budget trip we brought groceries from the UK (cheaper than France due to the exchange rate right now), brought a case of water and a case of coke (saving $4.50 a pop - they cost 75 cents each).  We took less luggage and did our laundry. On the day I was ordered by a doctor to stay in bed (or the soaking tub), the kids enjoyed the kids club inc. jewelry making etc. for free. My MIL and wife enjoyed the spa, steam room and sauna. And we all made use of the DVD player. I was able to get quiet rest while they were all downstairs. All of this was on the Disneyland Paris Golf course in a 2 bedroom villa for less than the price of staying in 1 room in a moderate Disney hotel. Bargain.

Yes - if you are 2 people or maybe 4, can be flexible when you go, and use something like priceline, you will save money. But you cannot stay in a hotel suite let alone a villa/appartment for anywhere near the amount we pay in purchase cost and maintenance.

Let's see, we have since buying, our week, gifts and A/Cs means we have stayed in a 2 bedroom in Paris twice, Newport Coast for a week, 4 nights in the Renaissance on Nob Hill San Francisco and an ocean view suite in the Monterrey Marriott for a night, Son Antem 2 bed villa for a week, and a Playa Andaluzia 2 bed appartment - plus all the little extras like free bottles of wine, parties, shirts, hats etc. so that is 40 nights in 5* accommodation for 4 people, for £7670 or $11,505 or that equates to £191.70 or  a night $287.63. This is based on 10 years of finance, and counting the down payment in this time frame too. It will get even cheaper if we were to stick at it for 75 years.

Now, compared to other vacations, we have paid $500 a night for a hotel room in Disneyland's Grand Californian before, and $390 for a room at WDW's Animal Kingdom Lodge. The Disneyland Hotel at Paris last October cost $450 a night. If you want a suite in one of those hotels you are looking at $4500 a night). Heck, even out local no frills Holiday Inn Express charges $120 for a 2 person room. To me, while MVCI is not cheap, it is a bargain if you want a luxury style. And this does not include the savings of eating breakfast and some meals in the units compared to hotel meals. Also, when we went to Spain, we could travel light because of the washer, this saved us $90 in extra baggage fees. Renters pay Marriott $500 a night for Ile de France.

So maybe I am a mug for buying direct, but I don't feel like one. Now if I want an older timeshare (perhaps Playa or Son Antem), then resale is the way to go. But if you want a new, someone has to buy direct. WE wanted Paris, in the times where we could travel for the kids' school dates. That's what we bought. But we think for us, it is totally the right thing (the kids were 2 and 6 when we bought, perfect).


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## ace2000 (Jun 10, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> Oh good gravy, does EVERY thread need to turn into a slam against developer-purchasers?! You don't need to insult me and every other owner who bought the same way I did as "foolish" to get your point across.
> 
> And if you had any knowledge at all about both Dave Ramsey's and Suze Orman's programs, you'd know that they don't care one bit how much you paid for your timeshare. No upfront dollar value could offset the fact that their idea of foolishness is to invest money in property that you don't own outright, and to which you need to pay yearly fees for use.
> 
> So there's your different conclusion.


 

Not a slam at all... if you feel that purchasing an item that you will be able to sell for only 10% of the purchase price (or less), the minute you sign the documents is a smart move... then I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions about your advice.


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 10, 2009)

ace2000 said:


> Not a slam at all... if you feel that purchasing an item that you will be able to sell for only 10% of the purchase price (or less), the minute you sign the documents is a smart move... then I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions about your advice.



I guess you think buying new cars are stupid too? I do this, knowing that once I drive my car out of the garage, it has lost significant value. But I have more rights if it goes wrong, it is to my specification, and I do a lot of miles so need reliabiltiy. To me it is good value. If my needs were to use it a few miles each day and I did not care much about make, model and colour, then a 2nd hand car would work just fine. TS is similar.


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## dashulak (Jun 10, 2009)

*Ignorance is Bliss!*

Sorry, folks, but I get really irritated when people make uninformed statements about people, such as:

"I wonder what sort of car Dave Ramsy drives . . . There's always going to be someone out there making money by telling you how to spend you money. . . telling me how I should live my life, how I should spend my money, what industry I should work in today, where I should live and what I should drive. "

"I personally have not seen, read, or heard Dave's "theories" on saving money . . . people like him just piss me off."

Here's a primer for the uniformed:

Dave Ramsey doesn't try to tell people how to live their lives, etc.  He gives advice to those who want to live in "financial peace." He speaks from the voice of experience (he faced financial ruin at age 26) and uses his experience to help keep others from falling into the same pit.  "The borrower is slave to the lender" is his credo.  (SO TRUE!)  He advises following a budget, paying cash for purchases, having an emergency fund of at least 6 months expenses and living within one's means.  While he may not know as much about timesharing as some on these boards, he knows a lot about financial common sense!

While we don't follow every single tenet of Dave's program, we personally know several families, including ours, who have Dave to thank for the fact that in these tough economic times, our lifestyles and retirement plans have changed very minimally.

The fact of the matter is that many people: 1) buy at developer prices and 2) finance timeshare purchases.  These are two things that Dave would definitely recommend against.  Additionally, most timeshares depreciate dramatically after purchase, maintenace fees almost never go down and are an ongoing liability, and timeshares usually don't sell easily or quickly in times of financial crisis.  This makes timeshare a risky purchase for many.

It's great that so many of us on these boards are prosperous, make good financial decisions and don't have worry about our economic futures.  Unfortunately, many of our fellow citizens don't make wise financial choices and need people like Dave Ramsey (or Suze Orman) to help them get back on track!


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2009)

ace2000 said:


> Not a slam at all... if you feel that purchasing an item that you will be able to sell for only 10% of the purchase price (or less), the minute you sign the documents is a smart move... then I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions about your advice.



What advice is that, exactly?  Where do you see me advising that everyone needs to buy timeshares in the exact same way I did?  Where do you see me advising that any other way is worthy of insult?  Where do you see me advising anything at all?!?!

All I did was respond to the topic of the thread which is that Dave Ramsey thinks timeshares are not a good investment.  (They're not, in his book, no matter which way they're puchased.)  And I would have stopped there if you hadn't decided that this thread was one more opportunity to sidetrack into insulting developer-purchasers.


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## ace2000 (Jun 10, 2009)

davewasbaloo said:


> I guess you think buying new cars are stupid too?


 
Ok, ok, ok... a new car is NOT worth 10% of it's value the moment you sign the paperwork. Yes, it's worth less... but nowhere near the 10% of a timeshare purchase - bad analogy.

If anyone is offended about calling a developer purchase 'foolish', I apologize. I know many are getting value, despite paying mega-dollars for their unit. 

Dave Ramsey said it's a 'bad idea'... maybe I should have stuck with that phrase instead. sorry.


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 10, 2009)

*Cars & Timeshares Are Not The Same.*




davewasbaloo said:


> I guess you think buying new cars are stupid too?


Some cars are new.  Other cars are used. 

With timeshares, it's different. 

_All_ timeshares are _used-used-used._  Other people have already stayed there previously before the owner shows up & checks in, _mox nix_ whether the owner bought at full freight from a timeshare company or paid peanuts resale. 

There is no such thing as a new timeshare. 

Buy timeshares resale.  Save thousands of dollars for exactly the same thing as full freight, or the equivalent, or something even better. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## ace2000 (Jun 10, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> What advice is that, exactly? Where do you see me advising that everyone needs to buy timeshares in the exact same way I did? Where do you see me advising that any other way is worthy of insult? Where do you see me advising anything at all?!?!
> 
> All I did was respond to the topic of the thread which is that Dave Ramsey thinks timeshares are not a good investment. (They're not, in his book, no matter which way they're puchased.) And I would have stopped there if you hadn't decided that this thread was one more opportunity to sidetrack into insulting developer-purchasers.


 
Here's my statement... Buying a timeshare purchase from the developer, when it is worth 10% of its value the moment you sign the paperwork is a 'bad idea'.  

Sorry, you want to make an issue about it and twist my statement into something that it was not intended to be... If you disagree with my statement about a developer purchase, state your facts, so everyone can be informed please.  

If Dave Ramsey is stating that a resale purchase is a bad idea and specifically stated it that way, can you share a quote with us?


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 10, 2009)

Agreed Dashulak. However in some cases it pays off - capital projects would never get built based on savings and surpluses.

Not having debt can be a solid decision (especially when it comes to luxuries). But there are some exceptions:

1. My BIL left school with no qualifications at 16. He was lucky and a hard worker, and he managed to be able to get a job on a building site, and eventually trained to drive a number of speciality construction vehicles. His earnings at the age of 25 where greater than mine at the same age (despite being a post grad). But he had been working for nearly 10 years compared to my 3). Now he is feeling the pinch in this climate as his work has been cut back. He is at a ceiling in terms of hourly wages, and now is working 1 - 2/3s the amount he used to. There is a demand for national trainers and assessors in his field and the average earning is 5 times a year more than he was earning before the cut backs (or the same as I was on in my last role). To train and qualify will cost him about 5% of his potential salary, and he has a job offer once he qualifies. He does not want go into debt to train (whereas I did for my education) and will be crying the blues for a long time that he cannot afford to go anywhere or do anything. Personally I have advised him to take out a lone.

2. In our case, I worked a business case where our overheads for MVCI would be about the same for vacations as the previous 5 years (buying direct and financing). Sure, if I wanted MVCI in florida, I could buy cheaper, but that need meet our needs. Overall, with finance, we are on top, and we can do it now rather than waiting several years to buy in (washers and driers are invaluable with small kids). so it worked for us.

But every case is different.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> Some cars are new.  Other cars are used.
> 
> With timeshares, it's different.
> 
> ...



Alan, _somebody_ gets to stay in a brand-new timeshare, and your new car is only new the _first_ time you drive it.    But of course, timeshares devalue much quicker and much steeper than cars or any other thing you can think of.

If the _only_ consideration is the upfront dollar value, then nobody can say that buying developer-direct is the way to go.  Not even me.  But for folks like me who have other considerations (which have been done to death on these boards, and which I'm not going into now,) resale-purchases are not the only option.

It would be nice if folks here would remember that before they go insulting developer-purchasers at every opportunity.  

What is it you say?  _YMMV_, and _Is This A Great Country, or What?
_


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## tombo (Jun 10, 2009)

davewasbaloo said:


> I guess you think buying new cars are stupid too? I do this, knowing that once I drive my car out of the garage, it has lost significant value. But I have more rights if it goes wrong, it is to my specification, and I do a lot of miles so need reliabiltiy. To me it is good value. If my needs were to use it a few miles each day and I did not care much about make, model and colour, then a 2nd hand car would work just fine. TS is similar.



Timeshare is not similar. A new car has never been owned or driven (except on test drives) by anyone other than you. A one owner car can bring a little higher resale. A used car might have dings, dents, high mileage, engine problems, no warranty left.  A new car comes with a new car warranty and a new car smell. You never know how a used car was driven or maintained. A new car will be driven only by you and if you maintain it well and don't hot rod it, the auto should last longer. A new and used car are two different things.

A developer sold timeshare is IDENTICAL to a RESALE timeshare. You stay in the same rooms whether you buy resale or retail. You swim in the same pool. If you buy garden view from the developer and another buys Ocean front resale (for 1/3 or less the price paid for the garden view), you will be staying in a lower quality room than the guy who bought resale, and you paid more for less. If the resale purchase is for a platinum week for 1/2 what you paid for a gold developer week, the resale purchaser has a better week to use each and every year than the developer purchaser owns, and they own it for 1000's less.

 Once you become an owner, you are the owner of a resale week no matter whether you purchased from the developer or not. When you go to sell your week you will not get one dollar more whether you originally purchased resale or retail, because either way you are selling the identical thing.


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 10, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> There is no such thing as a new timeshare.
> 
> Buy timeshares resale.  Save thousands of dollars for exactly the same thing as full freight, or the equivalent, or something even better.




But it is down to that scheme's economics. In the case of when we bought in Paris, there was a low supply and high demand. It meant that there was very little savings to be had in buying resale. £2000 ($3000) was worth it for a free year's Interval, 5 years of A/Cs, Trade for points every year etc.

Sure, if it was like the older properties in the US, we would have bought resale. Also, in France, there are special assurances to control the increase of maintanence fees!


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 10, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> Alan, _somebody_ gets to stay in a brand-new timeshare, and your new car is only new the _first_ time you drive it.    But of course, timeshares devalue much quicker and much steeper than cars or any other thing you can think of.
> 
> If the _only_ consideration is the upfront dollar value, then nobody can say that buying developer-direct is the way to go.  Not even me.  But for folks like me who have other considerations (which have been done to death on these boards, and which I'm not going into now,) resale-purchases are not the only option.
> 
> ...



Without an original buyer, there would not be resale available.


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## RandR (Jun 10, 2009)

*Enough already*

Can we please stop the argument of resale vs direct?  This has been done way too many times.  Just agree to disagree.


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## JimC (Jun 10, 2009)

ace2000 said:


> Buying a timeshare from the developer or from the time share companies is foolish - anyone disagree? Good... we all agree with Dave and Susie then....



I disagree with that as an absolute fact.  In many situations I agree wholeheartedly.  However, there are too many variables, such as the resale/direct price difference, inventory available, value of incentives, and the like to simply flat out state that developer purchases are wrong all of the time.


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 10, 2009)

*I Know Somebody Who Actually Stayed In A New Timeshare Unit 1 Time.*




SueDonJ said:


> Alan, _somebody_ gets to stay in a brand-new timeshare, and your new car is only new the _first_ time you drive it.


Ditto the timeshare unit.  It's only new the 1st time somebody stays in it.  After that, it's _used-used-used_ any way you shake it, same as that formerly new car that's been driven a few times. 

There's no way around it -- after people have been staying in a new timeshare unit, it's no longer new.  Newish, maybe.  Like new, possibly.  Near new, sure.  But _used-used-used_ all the same. 

I know somebody who once got to stay in a truly new timeshare unit -- the building had just been completed & nobody had ever stayed in that timeshare unit before.  The man & his family were the very 1st occupants in a brand-new, never-before-stayed-in timeshare unit.  After they checked out, everybody else who checked in to that same unit was enjoying a timeshare that was _used-used-used_ -- not that there's anything wrong with that, just who wants to pay a new price for a used item?  Not me. 

As it happens, the family who stayed in that (rare) new timeshare unit checked in there on RCI exchange.  People who stayed there after that -- the owners & the renters & the other exchangers _mox nix_ -- were all staying in a non-new timeshare unit. 

So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2009)

RandR said:


> Can we please stop the argument of resale vs direct?  This has been done way too many times.  Just agree to disagree.



But I don't disagree.  For some folks in some situations, developer is the way to go.  For other folks in other situations, resale is the way to go.  Neither is more right or wrong.  The developer- v. resale-purchase discussion isn't a bad discussion to have, and it's not even a problem if it comes up frequently because there are always new folks here who might not have knowledge of prior threads.

What I'd like to see stop is the infiltration of the discussion into every thread which has timeshare pricing as a tangent of the main idea, and the ever-present insults toward developer-purchasers in every one of the threads.  That's the problem.


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 10, 2009)

Lol, I actually enjoy the debate. And I agree, TS is not for everyone, but can be a good deal (like for us). Developer works well for new resorts, resale works well for older resorts or flooded markets (e.g. Orlando, Hilton Head etc. - why would anyone want to go to HHI anyway, I just don't get the appeal ;-)

But I do not think I am an idiot for buying from the developer and am trying to explain why. Our next purchase will be resale (unless Dubai or Tuscany do ever take off, then we would likely buy developer)


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## RandR (Jun 10, 2009)

Sue, I was going more for the fact that there are some people who will just never agree that buying direct is the way to go for anyone under any circumstances.  (Disclaimer: I bought resale.) The interesting thing will be if Marriott ever does put in a points system (I know, not likely) and gives direct buyers an edge like they presently do with multi-week buyers.  Boy would the attitudes change then.


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 10, 2009)

*Thrashing Out The Everlasting Thorny Issues On T. U. G. - B. B. S.*




RandR said:


> Can we please stop the argument of resale vs direct?


Those who dislike discussions of resale or full-freight are going to _hate_ ROFR *=* ROFL*.*

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## ace2000 (Jun 10, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> What I'd like to see stop is the infiltration of the discussion into every thread which has timeshare pricing as a tangent of the main idea, and the ever-present insults toward developer-purchasers in every one of the threads. That's the problem.


 
Again, you're twisting what I've been saying into something that it is not.  This is a forum to get advice about timeshares.  Therefore, members can feel free to post their thoughts.  

Please stop using the words 'insults' and 'every thread' when you know that is not true and is a major exaggeration on your part. You're taking the discussion way off-topic.

Let's agree to take any further discussion offline and send PMs - please.

I've given my thoughts and I stand by my statements... so long folks.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2009)

davewasbaloo said:


> ... why would anyone want to go to HHI anyway, I just don't get the appeal ;-) ...



Aaaarrrrgggghhhh.  A dagger to my heart.


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## RandR (Jun 10, 2009)

Dave, are they talking about building in those two places?



davewasbaloo said:


> Our next purchase will be resale (unless Dubai or Tuscany do ever take off, then we would likely buy developer)


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## RandR (Jun 10, 2009)

I have wondered what ROFL stands for.



AwayWeGo said:


> Those who dislike discussions of resale or full-freight are going to _hate_ ROFR *=* ROFL*.*
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## TheTimeTraveler (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm surprised this thread is getting so much activity.....


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 10, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> Aaaarrrrgggghhhh.  A dagger to my heart.



For me there is very little appeal, but I wanted to use this as an example that not everything is right for everyone!  If it were driveable, it would be much more attractive (I feel this way about Palm Springs too). 

Others might say they would never want own in the old beet fields near Disneyland, 25 miles from central Paris!

My winking smiley was there for a reason.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2009)

ace2000 said:


> Again, you're twisting what I've been saying into something that it is not.  This is a forum to get advice about timeshares.  Therefore, members can feel free to post their thoughts.
> 
> Please stop using the words 'insults' and 'every thread' when you know that is not true and is a major exaggeration on your part. You're taking the discussion way off-topic.
> 
> ...



How about you just apologize for calling my decision which works for me, "foolish", and we'll call it a day?


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 10, 2009)

*R. O. F. R. = R. O. F. L.*




RandR said:


> I have wondered what ROFL stands for.


ROFL = _Rolling On The Floor Laughing,_ as in *. . .* 

:rofl:​
ROFLMAO = _Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ankles Off. _

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 10, 2009)

RandR said:


> Dave, are they talking about building in those two places?



Before the downturn, they were on the cards after Cancun.


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## ace2000 (Jun 10, 2009)

SueDonJ said:


> How about you just apologize for calling my decision which works for me, "foolish", and we'll call it a day?


 
Agreed, I apologize...


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 10, 2009)

FWIW, even if we do not all agree, I think having this debate on here is worth while for any new readers. Also,  am more sold on resale than I ever would have been if I wanted to buy in the US.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2009)

davewasbaloo said:


> For me there is very little appeal, but I wanted to use this as an example that not everything is right for everyone!  If it were driveable, it would be much more attractive (I feel this way about Palm Springs too).
> 
> Others might say they would never want own in the old beet fields near Disneyland, 25 miles from central Paris!
> 
> My winking smiley was there for a reason.



Oh, see, I forgot my smiley because I was in the death throes.  

You're right, though, and you used much fewer words than I did to say my point - _not everything is right for everyone!_  Excellent job.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 10, 2009)

ace2000 said:


> Agreed, I apologize...



Thanks.


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## josh1231 (Jun 10, 2009)

As a general rule of thumb, Dave Ramsey is correct. Dave Ramsey is against debt. Most people end up financing timeshares, often times at rediculous interest rates that are masked with points and the promise of a tax deduction. This is what he's against. He has a lot of people call into his show that have paid $30K for a timeshare with huge maintenance fees, and they can't sell it because it's worthless.

He is also against bad performing investments, which mathematically a timeshare bought from a developer is. I'm not bashing developer purchases. There are many reasons a lot of people on this board buy from the developer. It's a lot more convenient, safer, etc. 

I am a big Dave Ramsey fan and agree with most everything he says. He is an expert in personal finance though, not timeshares. I believe if you have spare money and no debt, there is no reason not to buy a timeshare, even if it's from the developer if it is going to bring you enjoyment. As most have said here if you're buying it as an investment, probably shouldn't do that. If you're buying it as a way to have fun and you have no debt, than I say go for it.

As far as a new car goes, it is a bad purchase financially when compared to a used car. No matter what excuse you use to buy a new car, mathematically you're wrong. That being said if you have the money to pay cash for a new car, and it is worth reducing your stress level by driving a new car, Dave Ramsey probably wouldn't be against that by what I have heard on his t.v. show.


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 10, 2009)

I hear you on this stuff. I used the car analogy as it was the closest thing I could think of in depreciation terms. For many years, I had a car user allowance and drove about 40k a year. A new car with inclusive servicing and 3yr or 60k warranty made sense.

For my wife, who does the school run and grocery store, the odd visit out of town and a secondary back up/MPV for us to use to go to the dumps or take extended family/friends, a 2nd hand car was a better choice.


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## Bill4728 (Jun 10, 2009)

Clark Howard also is really down on TSs. 

BUT at least he says on his website, "IF you want to buy a TS, buy resale."


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## josh1231 (Jun 10, 2009)

davewasbaloo said:


> I hear you on this stuff. I used the car analogy as it was the closest thing I could think of in depreciation terms. For many years, I had a car user allowance and drove about 40k a year. A new car with inclusive servicing and 3yr or 60k warranty made sense.
> 
> For my wife, who does the school run and grocery store, the odd visit out of town and a secondary back up/MPV for us to use to go to the dumps or take extended family/friends, a 2nd hand car was a better choice.



I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't buy a new car, I'm just saying it probably cost you more than buying a used one. 

Take the BMW 550. A 2009 BMW 550 will cost you $55,000, and that is if you can get the dealer to take slightly less than invoice. You get free maintenance on this car I believe. A 2007 BMW 550 will cost you $36,000, or $19,000 less. You can get alot of maintenance for $19,000. 

I'm not saying it's not worth it to you to pay the extra money. I'm just saying you're still paying more for it if you put a pen to it.


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## ldanna (Jun 10, 2009)

tombo said:


> I have a couple of wealthy friends and they would never consider owning timeshares. I have talked about how wonderful they are and here are their reasons that they aren't interested.



This particular study I read defined milionaire as someone that has a million dollar. If you have a great job, and spend thousands of dollars, drive a fancy german car, live in a nice house, a boat for the weekend, you may not be classified as a "milionaire". Ask something about those waelthy people you know: are their houses payed in full or the house in fact belongs to the bank? What about the car? Do they have a milion dollar on their bank account or properties? They can spend a lot of money but don't have any savings.

Usually people that spend a lot of money cares a lot about what others will think about them, and I agree TS must be very embarassing for some folks. 

Some folks here have more than half a dozen weeks on really good resorts, all gold and platinum, probably bought direct (more than 90% of all TS sales are direct). The value of those weeks are more than the value of a good house in the US. And MF should be at least $6k a year for TS (a good monthly salary for lots of people), not to mention they have to use these week (air tickets, rental cars, and so on). So TS is defenetly a luxury that only wealthy people can affort. 

TS, let's mention only the good ones, are for people that like to travel a lot, a luxury for those who can affort it, marvelous for those who understand how it works. And for people like Tugers (and Tombo that I am quoting here) that don't care about the others because they don't pay our bills!


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 10, 2009)

*Nobody's Business if I Do.*




ldanna said:


> They can spend a lot of money but don't have any savings.


I would prefer to be considered poor even though I have a little money than be considered rich even though I'm in hock up to my eyebrows. 

And I much prefer staying in luxury timeshares for Motel 6 & Super 8 rates over making monthly payments on my maxed out Visa & Master Charge & Discover & American Express accounts. 

_Full Disclosure*:*_  We drive around in paid-for used cars.  Nothing fancy, but it beats walking.  Plus -- no monthly payments.  Is this a great country or what?  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 10, 2009)

*Mox Nix.*




davewasbaloo said:


> Without an original buyer, there would not be resale available.


True, but immaterial. 

If there were no original timeshare buyers & thus no timeshare resales, we could live with that. 

I can't think of anything we own that's more trivial & nonessential than our outstanding (resale) timeshares. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## tombo (Jun 10, 2009)

ldanna said:


> This particular study I read defined milionaire as someone that has a million dollar. If you have a great job, and spend thousands of dollars, drive a fancy german car, live in a nice house, a boat for the weekend, you may not be classified as a "milionaire". Ask something about those waelthy people you know: are their houses payed in full or the house in fact belongs to the bank? What about the car? Do they have a milion dollar on their bank account or properties? They can spend a lot of money but don't have any savings.
> 
> Usually people that spend a lot of money cares a lot about what others will think about them, and I agree TS must be very embarassing for some folks.
> 
> ...



My friends I was referring to have multi millions cash in the bank, they don't owe a dollar on their homes, and they don't finance anything. They have multi million dollar summer homes in the Highlands NC and they own multi million dollar homes they reside in. They mostly drive Toyotas and Volvos and Lexuses, no BMW's or Mercedes as most think they are a waste of money. One of my friends has a paid for $8 million dollar home on the beach in Naples FL, a multi million dollar home in Virginia, and a million dollar cond in Washington DC. I didn't want to give details as they really weren't necessary until asked if they are really millionaires. When I say wealthy millionaires, I mean just that. 

I am not wealthy :annoyed: , I just have some wealthy friends I met in college who remained friends even though I remained middle class. I can afford timeshares (I own over 20) and I am not wealthy. I owe money on my home and on one of my cars, and none are german. My friends who are very wealthy wouldn't consider owning a timeshare, and I doubt that many people laying next to you at the timeshare pool are millionaires. Millionaires don't typically want the trouble of owning timeshares. If they want this type of lifestyle they pay to vacation or if they really like a locale they buy a home there. 

I simply listed the reasons they gave me for not being interested when I was bragging on all the places I have gone and all the trips I made purely because I own timeshares. They explained to me how many of the places I was bragging on they had been to also and how cheaply they had made their trips using travel agents. They also talked about the places they love to go like Bali, Shell Haii (sp?), St Kitts, trinidad, Tobago etc where there are few timeshares. I am not one of the priviledged few who can travel where I want whenever I decide to go. I own timeshares and try to travel wherever I want as cheap as I can. 

I was not giving you a scientific study surveying hundreds of millionaires, I was simply telling you how the limited number of millionaires I know personally feel about timeshares

BTW, if you own a half dozen really nice timeshares right now and sell them, the proceeds from all 6 sales probably won't be enough to buy you a double wide trailer.


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## dashulak (Jun 10, 2009)

*The Millionaire Next Door*

It's interesting, but all of us probably know millionaires and don't even realize it.  Some dear friends live in a neighborhood of $250,000 - $500,000 homes, drive Volvos, and enjoy a modest lifestyle.  Their net worth is around $20 million!  Others teeter on the edge of bankruptcy with mortgages they can't afford and credit cards run up to the maximum (lots of smoke and mirrors IMO)!

Our timeshare is a pre-paid vacation with first class accomodations for far less that we'd pay if we rented -- it's absolutely not an investment!


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## dmaxdmax (Jun 10, 2009)

I think that for most people timeshares are like puppies, spouses and Miatas.  You get one because you want one, not because it makes financial sense.  Of course it might indeed make financial sense but that's not why you pull the trigger.

I don't think that the average TUGGER bears any resemblance to the average timeshare owner.


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## ldanna (Jun 10, 2009)

Tombo, I have a couple of friends that fly on their personal jets all the way from Brazil to Orlando with their famlies, and belive me I spend a better time at the Grande Vista that they do at the Floridian on WDW.

If you're trying to have cheaper vacations you would go to Motel 6 or TravelLodge, nothing to invest for $59 or $69 dollars a night. But you're going for quality vacation, which is very different, and still cheap (MF for a week if you do not consider the what you bought first).

The study I read didn't say anything about multi millionaires, but million dollar people: a comfortable house with the space they need, no expensive booze on regular basis, still married with their first wife (who knows how to cook BTW), made in usa cars, some japanese. This is comon stuff to million dolar men. Low profile. That's the kind of people you may find at the pool, but they won't let you know how much money they have. People I know that have TS fit this profile or are almost there.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 10, 2009)

dashulak said:


> It's interesting, but all of us probably know millionaires and don't even realize it.  Some dear friends live in a neighborhood of $250,000 - $500,000 homes, drive Volvos, and enjoy a modest lifestyle.  Their net worth is around $20 million!  Others teeter on the edge of bankruptcy with mortgages they can't afford and credit cards run up to the maximum (lots of smoke and mirrors IMO)!
> 
> Our timeshare is a pre-paid vacation with first class accomodations for far less that we'd pay if we rented -- it's absolutely not an investment!



This reminds me of I think it was a Lending Tree TV ad. The guy talked about all the great stuff he while riding on his lawnmower, had and then asked "How did I get it all, I am up to my eye balls in debt" Or something to that effect.


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## tombo (Jun 10, 2009)

dioxide45 said:


> This reminds me of I think it was a Lending Tree TV ad. The guy talked about all the great stuff he while riding on his lawnmower, had and then asked "How did I get it all, I am up to my eye balls in debt" Or something to that effect.




I loved that commercial!!!


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 10, 2009)

*None Of Our Timeshares Give Us Prepaid Vacations.*




dashulak said:


> Our timeshare is a pre-paid vacation with first class accomodations for far less that we'd pay if we rented -- it's absolutely not an investment!


Nothing is prepaid about any of our timeshare vacations, even though we got the actual timeshares for peanuts (relatively speaking).

We have to keep on paying those everlasting annual maintenance fees every year, year after year, world without end, amen. 

So it goes. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## dioxide45 (Jun 10, 2009)

I had never heard of Dave Ramsey and I am sure most others didn't until the Fox Business Network came along. Suze has been on TV for most of this decade.

Suze a while back actually had someone on her Can I Afford It Segment that wanted to buy a $100K timeshare in Whistler I think. She is not a fan of them and believes the same thing Dave does. If I remember correctly she approved them  They had wads of money that they could afford to waste if they wanted to. She suggested though that they just pay to vacation when they wanted and to avoid timeshare. She not once mentioned to them to look at resale and probably pick up the same week for pennies on the dollar. 

Truth is Dave and Suze are money experts, not timeshare experts. There are situations where TS makes sense for people. There are many more situations where TS does not and those are the people they are talking to. If someone pays $40K developer for a TS and gets use of it for 20 years. That is $2000 a year for their use, not counting any other costs (MF, interst). I can stay in a lot of places for less than $2000. If I only use it for 10 of the 20 years I have it, my cost jumps to $4000 for each week each year. There are people out there who buy and maybe use the week a few times then they just think about it again until the MF bill rolls in. I know someone just like this, they get lots of vacation a year and own a TS but never use it. Not even open to letting others in their family to use it either. They could send their grown and married kids on some good vacations. For most people, it just doesn't make financial sense to buy TS...


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 11, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> Nothing is prepaid about any of our timeshare vacations, even though we got the actual timeshares for peanuts (relatively speaking).
> 
> We have to keep on paying those everlasting annual maintenance fees every year, year after year, world without end, amen.
> 
> So it goes.




True that is not free, not even close. But you have to admit that maintanence fees do work out to be much cheaper than paying cash for a villa the quality of a Marriott, in fact they work out about the same as an economy business hotel room.


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 11, 2009)

I find it so hard to believe there are so many owners out there that do not make use of their purchase!


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## littlestar (Jun 11, 2009)

davewasbaloo said:


> I find it so hard to believe there are so many owners out there that do not make use of their purchase!



Before I learned about Tug and the great information on this site on how to use your timeshare for trading, my family (mom, dad, and sister) didn't know they could lock off their two bedrooms and deposit them as two deposits with Interval. Nor did they know what those AC's were that were given to them. The AC's went unused because nobody really knew what they were.   My sister had been receiving an AC every year for her Maui week and never used any of them before we found out about Tug.   

My sister-in-law who is a hair stylist told me she has a customer that owns DVC points and the lady just lets the DVC points expire each year because she is older now and doesn't travel to Orlando anymore. Is that crazy or what?


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 11, 2009)

My gosh. We must have had a a really good sales rep. He kept trying to sell us a 3 bed so we could lock off, and explained how it all worked. We didn't go for it as it seemed like a lot more (I wish we had back then). He also explained how the a/c's worked and we made use of those in our 1st year!  Awesome.

As for the DVC lady - crazy!


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 11, 2009)

*Having It All -- Luxury + Economy.*




davewasbaloo said:


> But you have to admit that maintanence fees do work out to be much cheaper than paying cash for a villa the quality of a Marriott, in fact they work out about the same as an economy business hotel room.


We think of it as enjoying luxury timeshare accommodations for Motel 6 & Super 8 rates. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 11, 2009)

davewasbaloo said:


> My gosh. We must have had a a really good sales rep. He kept trying to sell us a 3 bed so we could lock off, and explained how it all worked. We didn't go for it as it seemed like a lot more (I wish we had back then). He also explained how the a/c's worked and we made use of those in our 1st year!  Awesome.
> 
> As for the DVC lady - crazy!



It wouldn't surprise me, the one lady up the street has a Westgate unit in Orlando and they've used it a few times. They end up depositing it, forget to make a request(didn't know you could look at II online, thought you had to call). I know they've had 2 deposits that have expired, as I offered to look up locations availability etc for her.


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## m61376 (Jun 11, 2009)

Very true. I have a close friend who bought a ski week direct 3 years ago. Traded it the first year for a 2BR summer Maui, used the 1 BR the second year and traded the studio for a November NCV - so far so good- and this year forgot to trade it in for points and forgot to deposit it (they may have at least made a Flexchange deposit). Very smart, professional people. Life intervenes and what to do with your week takes a back burner and is all too often forgotten. 

There is a reason a surprising percentage of weeks go unused each year. I forgot the figures- they were posted awhile back- but wasn't it close to 10%?


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## timeos2 (Jun 11, 2009)

*The car has a base value that you own - not so the timeshare*



davewasbaloo said:


> I guess you think buying new cars are stupid too? I do this, knowing that once I drive my car out of the garage, it has lost significant value. But I have more rights if it goes wrong, it is to my specification, and I do a lot of miles so need reliabiltiy. To me it is good value. If my needs were to use it a few miles each day and I did not care much about make, model and colour, then a 2nd hand car would work just fine. TS is similar.



Show me a new car that loses 90% of the value the day you take possession (and Yugo's don't count!) and then you have a case. Timeshares set the bar for depreciation not just in theory but in actual, everyday fact. A Wyndham retail purchase that costs $27,900 from the developer is worth - and I'm being GENEROUS giving it a value of $.02/point vs the $.01 or less they actually sell for everyday - $3,720. the day the rescind right ends. Nothing comes close to that rate of instant depreciation. While buying a new car isn't technically the most economical choice it isn't the guaranteed fiscal disaster the purchase of a "new" (which really doesn't exist) timeshare week represents. There is no real comparison between the two choices.   The "used" timeshare for a savings of 50-90%+ is the exact same unit(s) and carry the exact same annual fees you will get if you foolishly pay the retail price. The only difference is how much you paid for that use privilege.


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 11, 2009)

*You Typed A Mouthful.*




m61376 said:


> Life intervenes and what to do with your week takes a back burner and is all too often forgotten.


I think that's right. 

We didn't get into timeshares until we were already old retired folks with nothing to do but goof off 24-7-365. 

Might as well play _The Timeshare Game_ as sit around doing Sudoku & ordering stuff off _The Shopping Channel,_ etc. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## burg1121 (Jun 11, 2009)

ace2000 said:


> Not a slam at all... if you feel that purchasing an item that you will be able to sell for only 10% of the purchase price (or less), the minute you sign the documents is a smart move... then I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions about your advice.



Could you tell me where I can get a summer week at MGO for $2100.00 I could use another week at 10% of what I paid for my first.


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## buzzy (Jun 11, 2009)

I actually believe a lot of what Dave Ramsey says but he is very black and white on most things.  One of them is credit card debt....he feels you should never use a credit card and always use a debit card to pay for your purchases immediately.  We use our credit cards to our advantage and use a card immediately after a statement cut off date so that we can use the credit card companies money for almost 2 months, not to mention the free nights of hotel stays and cash back that we receive as well, without paying any interest.  We have numerous credit cards that we use at different times for this purpose.

For us, the timeshare issue was one of vacationing with a family of 5....the world is designed for families of 4.....hotel rooms, cars, restaurants and we looked at timeshare ownership as a way to help us vacation where we did not have to cram into a room that was too small for us or overspend on 2 rooms.  We "broke even" on our intial investment (resale) and now look at it as the maintenance fees being the cost of the vacation week.  As long as the maintenance fees do not skyrocket I think we are still ahead.  I will say though that if we were a family of 4 we would probably not be timeshare owners as we still enjoy full service hotels.


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## M. Henley (Jun 11, 2009)

*So What?*

Who gives a s**t what Dave Ramsey likes, or dislikes for that matter.


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## littlestar (Jun 11, 2009)

buzzy said:


> I actually believe a lot of what Dave Ramsey says but he is very black and white on most things.  One of them is credit card debt....he feels you should never use a credit card and always use a debit card to pay for your purchases immediately.  We use our credit cards to our advantage and use a card immediately after a statement cut off date so that we can use the credit card companies money for almost 2 months, not to mention the free nights of hotel stays and cash back that we receive as well, without paying any interest.  We have numerous credit cards that we use at different times for this purpose.
> 
> For us, the timeshare issue was one of vacationing with a family of 5....the world is designed for families of 4.....hotel rooms, cars, restaurants and we looked at timeshare ownership as a way to help us vacation where we did not have to cram into a room that was too small for us or overspend on 2 rooms.  We "broke even" on our intial investment (resale) and now look at it as the maintenance fees being the cost of the vacation week.  As long as the maintenance fees do not skyrocket I think we are still ahead.  I will say though that if we were a family of 4 we would probably not be timeshare owners as we still enjoy full service hotels.



I, too, think most of his advice is pretty black and white. We use a reward credit card and never carry a balance on it and I won't use a debit card. But Dave's books do make you think about how the United States has been conditioned in the last 30 years to think "debt" is acceptable on everything. He does have a good point you have to admit. Maybe with the recession and tough economy the new status symbol will be a paid-off mortgage.  

I'm with you on the timeshares - I figure if Marriott and Disney keep my resorts in good shape with reasonable maintenance fees, then I'll hang on to them. If they don't, forget it - I'll sell and just go back to renting. I constantly watch what companies do - even brand names, because nobody else is going to have my best interest at heart but me.


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## josh1231 (Jun 11, 2009)

buzzy said:


> I actually believe a lot of what Dave Ramsey says but he is very black and white on most things.  One of them is credit card debt....he feels you should never use a credit card and always use a debit card to pay for your purchases immediately.  We use our credit cards to our advantage and use a card immediately after a statement cut off date so that we can use the credit card companies money for almost 2 months, not to mention the free nights of hotel stays and cash back that we receive as well, without paying any interest.  We have numerous credit cards that we use at different times for this purpose.
> 
> For us, the timeshare issue was one of vacationing with a family of 5....the world is designed for families of 4.....hotel rooms, cars, restaurants and we looked at timeshare ownership as a way to help us vacation where we did not have to cram into a room that was too small for us or overspend on 2 rooms.  We "broke even" on our intial investment (resale) and now look at it as the maintenance fees being the cost of the vacation week.  As long as the maintenance fees do not skyrocket I think we are still ahead.  I will say though that if we were a family of 4 we would probably not be timeshare owners as we still enjoy full service hotels.



Just being a naysayer here, but I believe Dave Ramsey would say that nobody gets rich off of "points", and if you have a couple thousand dollars in monthly expenses, the couple percent you might gain on that money is not worth running the risk of charging a debt you can't afford to pay.


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## josh1231 (Jun 11, 2009)

M. Henley said:


> Who gives a s**t what Dave Ramsey likes, or dislikes for that matter.



I try to learn everything I can from people who are better at something than I am, thus Dave Ramsey is richer than I, so there must be something I can learn from him about money.


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## davewasbaloo (Jun 11, 2009)

josh1231 said:


> I try to learn everything I can from people who are better at something than I am, thus Dave Ramsey is richer than I, so there must be something I can learn from him about money.



But is he happy? :ignore:


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## josh1231 (Jun 11, 2009)

davewasbaloo said:


> But is he happy? :ignore:



LOL, don't know, but he seems pretty happy .


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## buzzy (Jun 11, 2009)

josh1231 said:


> Just being a naysayer here, but I believe Dave Ramsey would say that nobody gets rich off of "points", and if you have a couple thousand dollars in monthly expenses, the couple percent you might gain on that money is not worth running the risk of charging a debt you can't afford to pay.



I think I HAVE actually heard him say something to that effect.  Most people cannot take the risks associated with having that kind of debt exposure without the possiblility of not being able to pay it and it is not worth the points or cash back. His point is it is better to just pay for it immediately because the majority of people do not have the discipline to sustain paying it off on a monthly basis.  We pay for our cars in cash and do not have any monthly debt other than a small mortgage.  We are self employed, charge a lot on a monthly basis and our "cash back" or free nights are pretty substantial. While we do not get rich off of the points, it is a nice perk for things we would pay for anyway....


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## littlestar (Jun 11, 2009)

Dave Ramsey's straight talk on dealing with deadbeat relatives is pretty funny. You know, when you have the brother-in-law that hits you up for a loan that you know he's never going to pay back.  

I laughed out loud at his quote that you need to "leave the cave, kill something and drag it home." In other words, you need to get a job and have some income coming in. His books are really pretty entertaining and quite comical to read. 

I've heard him talk about nice vacations and his books aren't against taking a vacation - he just doesn't think debt is the way to take one.


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## JimC (Jun 11, 2009)

They (DR & SO) are both excellent media personalities that sell basic financial advice.  Nothing spectacular or sophisticated, just plain vanilla.  I'm not sure what particular expertise or value either one brings to a discussion of timeshares.  But it is interesting to get the views of all to add to the mix.

We switched to timeshares because it fits what and how we want to vacation.


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## mas (Jun 11, 2009)

AwayWeGo said:


> ROFLMAO = _Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ankles Off. _
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



...Ankles??


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## Beverley (Jun 11, 2009)

dougp26364 said:


> I wonder what sort of car Dave Ramsy drives or, does he take a taxi anywhere he wants to go? If he owns a car, I bet it's not the least expensive or even the most economical vehicle to own. I wonder what sort of house he lives in? Is it a large house that takes a lot of maintenance or is a a reasonable house that provides everything he needs without the extra expenses that come with high end neighborhoods.
> 
> Timeshare is not a logical purchase if you're into penny pinching. It's a luxury purchase that isn't going to save you money. It's a lifestyle purchase that's difficult to validate financially.
> 
> There's always going to be someone out there making money by telling you how to spend you money. Dave is just another voice in an industry plagued with people telling me how I should live my life, how I should spend my money, what industry I should work in today, where I should live and what I should drive. I stopped listening to those bozo's long ago and my life's been all the better for it.



BRAVO!  

Well put.

Beverley


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## dioxide45 (Jun 11, 2009)

M. Henley said:


> Who gives a s**t what Dave Ramsey likes, or dislikes for that matter.



Thanks for contributing to the discussion in a positive way.


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## #1 Cowboys Fan (Jun 11, 2009)

After MANY posts---I'm wondering why this thread is on the Marriott Forum??   

Pat


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## AwayWeGo (Jun 11, 2009)

*What, Then ?*




mas said:


> Ankles?


Arms ? 

Abdomen ? 

Arches ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## MLC (Jun 11, 2009)

tombo said:


> My friends I was referring to have multi millions cash in the bank, they don't owe a dollar on their homes, and they don't finance anything. They have multi million dollar summer homes in the Highlands NC and they own multi million dollar homes they reside in. They mostly drive Toyotas and Volvos and Lexuses, no BMW's or Mercedes as most think they are a waste of money. One of my friends has a paid for $8 million dollar home on the beach in Naples FL, a multi million dollar home in Virginia, and a million dollar cond in Washington DC. I didn't want to give details as they really weren't necessary until asked if they are really millionaires. When I say wealthy millionaires, I mean just that.
> 
> I am not wealthy :annoyed: , I just have some wealthy friends I met in college who remained friends even though I remained middle class. I can afford timeshares (I own over 20) and I am not wealthy. I owe money on my home and on one of my cars, and none are german. My friends who are very wealthy wouldn't consider owning a timeshare, and I doubt that many people laying next to you at the timeshare pool are millionaires. Millionaires don't typically want the trouble of owning timeshares. If they want this type of lifestyle they pay to vacation or if they really like a locale they buy a home there.
> 
> ...



You are correct.  I have the same type of friends and they do not own timeshares for the same reasons you have said.  I have given some of my weeks to vacation and they loved it.  They just do not want to hassles of trying to go on vacation.


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## jimf41 (Jun 12, 2009)

ace2000  
Not a slam at all... if you feel that purchasing an item that you will be able to sell for only 10% of the purchase price (or less), the minute you sign the documents is a smart move... then I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions about your advice.

burg1121
Could you tell me where I can get a summer week at MGO for $2100.00 I could use another week at 10% of what I paid for my first.

He can't, and he can't get me another Ocean pointe plat  for $1950 or a Frenchman's Cove 2bdm pres week for $3700 either. If he can I'll be more than willing to pay him double for either unit.

timeos2   	
Timeshares set the bar for depreciation not just in theory but in actual, everyday fact. A Wyndham retail purchase that costs $27,900 from the developer is worth - and I'm being GENEROUS giving it a value of $.02/point vs the $.01 or less they actually sell for everyday - $3,720. the day the rescind right ends.

This is the Marriott forum. Maybe the folks on the Wyndham forum would find this info of some use. Is there a Marriott property somewhere that would only sell for 13% of its cost the day after you bought it?


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## ace2000 (Jun 12, 2009)

jimf41 - you are quiblling over the details that have nothing to do with the OP's original post.

This is a thread about what Dave Ramsey thinks about purchasing timeshares in general. Do you think he was making reference to Marriott property specifically? I don't think so, perhaps you know differently.

For some reason, the moderators have chosen to leave this thread in the Marriott section. But, obviously the discussion covers more than Marriott.

The 10% value figure covers developer purchases in general, there will obviously be some valued higher and some lower. I think that is a fair figure for the overall resale market after being purchased directly from the developer. In fact, you can purchase some resale Marriott units for that 10% price.


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## josh1231 (Jun 12, 2009)

jimf41 said:


> ace2000
> timeos2
> Timeshares set the bar for depreciation not just in theory but in actual, everyday fact. A Wyndham retail purchase that costs $27,900 from the developer is worth - and I'm being GENEROUS giving it a value of $.02/point vs the $.01 or less they actually sell for everyday - $3,720. the day the rescind right ends.
> 
> This is the Marriott forum. Maybe the folks on the Wyndham forum would find this info of some use. Is there a Marriott property somewhere that would only sell for 13% of its cost the day after you bought it?



Yes, I believe there are several that could only be sold for 13% of purchase price. Breckenridge Silver bought directly from developer. They go often on ebay for $1. If you can buy any of the Vail properties still, they would go for less. Ocean Point Silver sells for $5000 on ebay, about 18% of its developer price.  Desert Springs Silver. They go on ebay for $500, and I assume they cost over $4000 from Marriott. Many of the Hilton Head Bronze and Silvers go for less than $500, which I'm sure is less than 13%. Williamsburg silver goes for $700 on ebay, etc...

I bought  Newport Coast 2 months ago for $5500, or 18% of what Marriott sells it for.


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## timeos2 (Jun 12, 2009)

*Even the top have a terrible record*



jimf41 said:


> This is the Marriott forum. Maybe the folks on the Wyndham forum would find this info of some use. Is there a Marriott property somewhere that would only sell for 13% of its cost the day after you bought it?



No - but most now sell at 40% or less for the majority of weeks (excepting those few super high demand periods that may hold 60-70% after retail sale). No car suffers a 40-60% loss on day 10 either.  Timeshares, regardless of brand, still hold the record for depreciation resale vs retail pricing.


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## ace2000 (Jun 12, 2009)

josh1231 said:


> Yes, I believe there are several that could only be sold for 13% of purchase price. Breckenridge Silver bought directly from developer. They go often on ebay for $1. If you can buy any of the Vail properties still, they would go for less. Ocean Point Silver sells for $5000 on ebay, about 18% of its developer price. Desert Springs Silver. They go on ebay for $500, and I assume they cost over $4000 from Marriott. Many of the Hilton Head Bronze and Silvers go for less than $500, which I'm sure is less than 13%. Williamsburg silver goes for $700 on ebay, etc...
> 
> I bought Newport Coast 2 months ago for $5500, or 18% of what Marriott sells it for.


 
All you have to do is look at completed listings on eBay. There are some ads for Marriott timeshares that couldn't even pull a minimum bid of $1.  Marriott has not been immune to the latest downturn in resale pricing...


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## jimf41 (Jun 12, 2009)

kamumma1 said:


> Hi all -
> 
> Anyone ever heard of Dave Ramsey?  He's a big personal finance guy and has a radio and cable talk show.  He always says that timeshares are a bad idea as their value plumets after you buy them (which is true).  And the maintenance fees just continue to go up (also true).  He says it's better to just save up and go on vacation.  Anyone disagree?  I have to say that we have saved money with Marriott.  We are working the points system with travel packages and have gotten free airfare for 4 (except for the $40 booking fee) for 3 years in a row.  And stayed in some very nice Cat 6 hotels.  We didn't finance our 2 units so we aren't paying outrageous interest on them.  I really think we came out ahead - especially if you hold them for the long haul, and use the points system for travel packages.  Any thoughts?





ace2000 said:


> jimf41 - you are quiblling over the details that have nothing to do with the OP's original post.
> 
> This is a thread about what Dave Ramsey thinks about purchasing timeshares in general. Do you think he was making reference to Marriott property specifically? I don't think so, perhaps you know differently.
> 
> ...



The OP was a Marriott owner, posting on the Marriott forum, about how Ramsey's comments differed with his own Marriott TS experiences. The OP never asked for comments on TS purchases in general, only about MVCI.


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## jimf41 (Jun 12, 2009)

ace2000 said:


> All you have to do is look at completed listings on eBay. There are some ads for Marriott timeshares that couldn't even pull a minimum bid of $1.  Marriott has not been immune to the latest downturn in resale pricing...



Burg1121 and I are not interested in "some" MVCI properties, we've each asked if you could please negotiate getting us the properties we stated for 10% of what we paid. I went a step further and offered to pay 20% and I'll let you keep the extra 10%.


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## ace2000 (Jun 12, 2009)

ace2000 said:


> The 10% value figure covers developer purchases in general, there will obviously be some valued higher and some lower. I think that is a fair figure for the overall resale market after being purchased directly from the developer. In fact, you can purchase some resale Marriott units for that 10% price.


 
Jim - please read my previous post above...  I was referring to the *overall* resale market.  

I guess I thought the thread was about Dave Ramsey's thoughts on timeshares in general since his name was in the title on the original post.  My thoughts in this thread would apply to Marriott timeshares also, even though I would agree that Marriott's do retain their resale values better than the norm.  Can we at least agree on that?

Anyway, I'm moving on...


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## jimf41 (Jun 12, 2009)

timeos2 said:


> No - but most now sell at 40% or less for the majority of weeks (excepting those few super high demand periods that may hold 60-70% after retail sale). No car suffers a 40-60% loss on day 10 either.  Timeshares, regardless of brand, still hold the record for depreciation resale vs retail pricing.



I don't disagree with your numbers John. There is another side to a TS purchase that you don't consider when looking at TS ownership from a financial investment standpoint. I didn't buy at Ocean Pointe or Frenchman's Cove to make money. At Ocean Pointe I've broken even on my plat week purchased in 2002 from the developer. I own 3 silver weeks there also and those are worth maybe 40-50% of what I paid for them.

I've only used the plat week 3 times but the silver weeks I always use because they are all oceanfront. I'm thinking of selling the plat week but I'll never sell the silver weeks because they are more valuable to me. Financially the plat week was the best "investment", retaining about 100% of it's original cost. But the silver weeks are when my children and grandchildren visit and I just can't put a price on watching them make sandcastles at the beach or getting their faces painted by a clown.

The cheapest I've seen a 3bdrm silver oceanfront at OP is around 17k. I think I paid about 21 or 22k. I wouldn't care if you could pick one up resale today for 10k. I would never swap the last 7 years of memories or the next 10 years for the difference of 12k.

Could I have done this all cheaper by renting a hotel room or even a TS? Yes, most likely I would have saved many thousands of $$$. But would I have taken my family on all these vacations if I didn't buy into the dream back in October of 2002? No, I know I wouldn't have.

Last night my wife and I sat on the front porch and split a bottle on Stags Leap Cabernet. It's a $40 bottle and we finished it in about an hour and a half. It's worth nothing after you use it once, not even a nickel deposit. I guess it was a bad "investment". It was a lot of fun drinking it and talking over our past trips and the upcoming ones planned for this year and next.


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## timeos2 (Jun 12, 2009)

*its not monetary*



jimf41 said:


> I don't disagree with your numbers John. There is another side to a TS purchase that you don't consider when looking at TS ownership from a financial investment standpoint. I didn't buy at Ocean Pointe or Frenchman's Cove to make money. At Ocean Pointe I've broken even on my plat week purchased in 2002 from the developer. I own 3 silver weeks there also and those are worth maybe 40-50% of what I paid for them.
> 
> I've only used the plat week 3 times but the silver weeks I always use because they are all oceanfront. I'm thinking of selling the plat week but I'll never sell the silver weeks because they are more valuable to me. Financially the plat week was the best "investment", retaining about 100% of it's original cost. But the silver weeks are when my children and grandchildren visit and I just can't put a price on watching them make sandcastles at the beach or getting their faces painted by a clown.
> 
> ...



Jim - Now we're in agreement as there is no comparison to jamming into a rental room vs a luxury 1-2-3 or more bedroom timeshare for roughly equal dollars expended. And the non-monetary part of the equation is critical to the personal value derived. But finance "experts" are going to look at the bottom line - nothing but the bottom line - and it is tough to impossible to make a case for retail timeshare purchase & have that work. Even resale can be a tough one to make a positive, bottom line outcome.  The intangibles aren't going to factor into the expert advice. They look at the drepreciation & nothing else - and in that area timeshare stands alone as the worse "investment" - especially at retail prices - there is.


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## littlestar (Jun 12, 2009)

timeos2 said:


> Jim - Now we're in agreement as there is no comparison to jamming into a rental room vs a luxury 1-2-3 or more bedroom timeshare for roughly equal dollars expended. And the non-monetary part of the equation is critical to the personal value derived. But finance "experts" are going to look at the bottom line - nothing but the bottom line - and it is tough to impossible to make a case for retail timeshare purchase & have that work. Even resale can be a tough one to make a positive, bottom line outcome.  The intangibles aren't going to factor into the expert advice. They look at the drepreciation & nothing else - and in that area timeshare stands alone as the worse "investment" - especially at retail prices - there is.



John, great post. 

My brother-in-law is a real estate investor and quite wealthy - he actually carries purchase agreements in the trunk of his car at all times (laughter). We gave him and his family a stay at one of our high-end timeshare resorts and they absolutely loved it. Not too long ago they called us and offered us a week long stay in one of their whole ownership condos for a trade for either our Marriott Vacation Club or DVC points. Even with them enjoying their stays at our "branded" timeshare resorts, my brother-in-law will absolutely not buy anything that he can't "make money" on.


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## M. Henley (Jun 12, 2009)

*Ha*

You are more than welcome.
:whoopie: 



dioxide45 said:


> Thanks for contributing to the discussion in a positive way.


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## Superchief (Jun 12, 2009)

If you compare the loss in value of the Marriott timeshares to loss in real estate or stock investments over the last two years, all have gone down dramatically. Since the MVC resorts are deeded property, at least I am only exposed to a few thousand dollars but still can keep my 'property' and enjoy my vacations. This is why I would much rather own a few timeshare weeks (deeded property only), rather than vacation homes/ condiminiums. I would never have been able to afford the vacations my family has enjoyed if we had to stay in hotels and eat all of our meals in restaurants.


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## richardm (Jun 12, 2009)

*It's paid advertising....*

There has been a tremendous amount of dialogue about the validity of media personalities and their opinions on the industry. I didn't read this entire thread, but say a few names include Ramsey and Clarke Howard. 

Has anyone considered that both of these individuals may simply have been paid for marketing by a company with a "Donate your timeshare" business model? Helping to spread a negative perception of timeshare ownership among uneducated owners simply reinforces their negative mindset, and makes it even easier for the "Donate" groups to gather clients.

Perhaps their public opinions have simply been influenced by the advertising revenue they have generated, and satisfied timeshare owners should not spend too much time or thought worrying about it..


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## josh1231 (Jun 12, 2009)

You know, with Dave Ramsey at least, I would say probably not the case. I have heard him bash reverse mortgage and debt consolidation companies even though they advertise during his show saying if it was his choice they wouldn't be advertising during his show, but it's fox business' choice.


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## richardm (Jun 12, 2009)

Silly Rabit, tricks are for kids!

There are multiple levels of advertising for each piece of media. You have local ads sold by the regionial station, national ads sold by the broadcaster or distributor, and direct ads sold by the program itself.

Chances are the advertisers you are referring to don't even realize they are falling into that timeslot. Most of our mass media marketers buy up bulk placements at discounted prices- so don't always know the specific placements they are getting.


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## josh1231 (Jun 12, 2009)

richardm said:


> Silly Rabit, tricks are for kids!
> 
> There are multiple levels of advertising for each piece of media. You have local ads sold by the regionial station, national ads sold by the broadcaster or distributor, and direct ads sold by the program itself.
> 
> Chances are the advertisers you are referring to don't even realize they are falling into that timeslot. Most of our mass media marketers buy up bulk placements at discounted prices- so don't always know the specific placements they are getting.



So you are saying a company like "Donate your timeshare" pays Dave Ramsey to say timeshares are bad so that people will want to sell their timeshare, and hopefully sell with them? Now you're just being rediculous.

Could it just be the fact that generally speaking timeshares are a less than favorable purchase financially, and though people on this board have figured out great ways to make them work out for them, that most people lose out purchasing timeshares?

And maybe he gives financial advice for the masses, but each individual person still has to use their own brain to determine what is the correct purchase for them individually. I listen to Dave Ramsey and follow his advice. I just purchased a timeshare 2 months ago. I did so because for me it made sense for me and because I paid $5500 for a timeshare that other people purchase for $30,500. For most of the people who buy from a developer and make an impulse decision, it is going to be a disastrous purchase.


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## richardm (Jun 12, 2009)

I'm sure you are probably right... 

And I'm also sure the direct link on his website (and the new section devoted to timeshares) are also just an unfortunate coincidence.. 

Sorry to splash cold water on your hero worship- you don't have to turn on him now, or reach for your torch and pitchfork- and it doesn't mean his advice should be totally disregarded. Just the reality of how marketing and paid advertising actually work.. 

The same company advertised with Clark Howard in 2004. Same basic salespitch and link buy.. You can probably find the info on his achives. You'll probably be surprised how similar the ads sound.


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## josh1231 (Jun 12, 2009)

richardm said:


> I'm sure you are probably right...
> 
> And I'm also sure the direct link on his website (and the new section devoted to timeshares) are also just an unfortunate coincidence..
> 
> ...



As you should be able to see by my recently purchasing a timeshare my "hero worship" only goes so far. Dave Ramsey has a lot of great advice and some people hang on every word he says, some people adapt his advice to their lifestyle. I fall in the latter category. 

He may in fact get paid, that is really not my point. You're trying to make the point that the only reason he says timeshares are bad for people is because he may or may not be getting paid money. I'm saying he believes they are bad and has partnered with someone who can take that belief and perhaps generate some advertising dollars that way. 

There is a lot of proof that timeshares are bad for a lot of people. There is no disputing that. I for one believe they're good for me, and so do many people on this board.


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## Latravel (Jun 12, 2009)

Timeshares are not financial investments!  They should only be purchased if you can afford it with any extra money you have.   If you have to think too much about the purchase, you shouldn't be buying a timeshare, resale or direct.  

Tombo - I would consider the people I know to be affluent (everyone is a millionaire, which is easy in California) and many own Marriott timeshares.  I can tell you none ever bought on the resale market because they didn't need to.


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## MikeM132 (Jun 13, 2009)

Well, a financial guru recommended buying Wachovia Bank stock several years ago, which I did. My developer-bought timeshares were a much better investment.


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## Beverley (Jun 13, 2009)

timeos2 said:


> No - but most now sell at 40% or less for the majority of weeks (excepting those few super high demand periods that may hold 60-70% after retail sale). No car suffers a 40-60% loss on day 10 either.  Timeshares, regardless of brand, still hold the record for depreciation resale vs retail pricing.



You may be right about the numbers ... I really do not know.  However, to compare to the folks that just pick up and go when ever and where ever they want, I think that is great for them.   After their trip their residual value is the memories.  

Of course we all get to keep them regardless of how we waste our money.  Every one wastes something some time and vacations are not investments.  A beach house is not a vacation, that is an investment.  Timeshares are prepaid for vacations, they are not investments. I accept that and buy them anyway and I continue to "rock on with my bad self". :whoopie: 

To each his own.

Beverley


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## Beverley (Jun 13, 2009)

jimf41 said:


> Last night my wife and I sat on the front porch and split a bottle on Stags Leap Cabernet. It's a $40 bottle and we finished it in about an hour and a half. It's worth nothing after you use it once, not even a nickel deposit. I guess it was a bad "investment". It was a lot of fun drinking it and talking over our past trips and the upcoming ones planned for this year and next.



Now you're talking!! 

Beverley


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## SueDonJ (Jun 13, 2009)

Beverley said:


> ... I continue to "rock on with my bad self". :whoopie:



Now that made me laugh.  "You go, girl!"


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## Latravel (Jun 13, 2009)

_"I continue to "rock on with my bad self"_

Love it!


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## #1 Cowboys Fan (Jun 13, 2009)

jimf41 said:


> Last night my wife and I sat on the front porch and split a bottle on Stags Leap Cabernet. It's a $40 bottle and we finished it in about an hour and a half. It's worth nothing after you use it once, not even a nickel deposit. I guess it was a bad "investment". It was a lot of fun drinking it and talking over our past trips and the upcoming ones planned for this year and next.



In Maine, you would have had to pay the fifteen cent deposit---so you could have gotten that back 

Pat


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## applegirl (Jun 14, 2009)

davewasbaloo said:


> I find it so hard to believe there are so many owners out there that do not make use of their purchase!




OMG!  I can't tell you how many people I have met who own t/s and rarely or never use them.  Many don't even let family use them (as an above poster mentioned).  Sometimes I tell them about TUG and sometimes I don't.  You can kinda tell sometimes those who would be willing to go the extra mile and investigate TUG, but most would not.  There are a lot of people out there who may complain about not vacationing but then are not willing to spend the time to plan it out.  I think a lot of t/s owners fall in this category!

Too bad for them because we take more vacations than we know what to do with, and we only own one t/s week! (FYI: between locking-off, getaways and other hotel stays).

Janna


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## Beverley (Jun 14, 2009)

Janna,

You have a good point.  

Interestingly enough the people that I know that do not make good use of their t/s often complain about the system or the trading company as never having anything they want.  After a few questions I find out that they are not trying to make plans ahead of time.  They usually call (no pending request) about 2 or 3 months out for a popular area and then blame the system or the trading company for not having what they want.

Beverley


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## tombo (Jun 14, 2009)

Latravel said:


> Timeshares are not financial investments!  They should only be purchased if you can afford it with any extra money you have.   If you have to think too much about the purchase, you shouldn't be buying a timeshare, resale or direct.
> 
> Tombo - I would consider the people I know to be affluent (everyone is a millionaire, which is easy in California) and many own Marriott timeshares.  I can tell you none ever bought on the resale market because they didn't need to.



It must be easy for people to become millionaires in California since they can attain that status even though they make poor financial decisions (like buying timeshares from the developer rather than resale). I need to move to California if it is that easy to become a millionaire.   If everyone is so rich why is the state of California almost bankrupt? 

Hmm. How does everyone become a millionaire when the highest per capita income in the richest county in California for 2009 is $91,483? Not only do they apparently all become millionaires, they all do so while spending more money than they have to on big ticket purchases just because they can. I think I am beginning to see why the state is going broke.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/city-vs-city/636607-richest-us-counties-per-capita-income.html

I guess California millionaires also pay sticker price for cars and asking price for homes etc rather than negotiating because they can afford to pay more than they have to. The few rich people I know don't blow their money buying something for $40,000 that they could buy for $10,000, but of course it is very hard to become a millionaire here, so they do have to watch their pennies.


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## davidvel (Jun 14, 2009)

tombo said:


> Hmm. How does everyone become a millionaire when the highest per capita income in the richest county in California for 2009 is $91,483? Not only do they apparently all become millionaires, they all do so while spending more money than they have to on big ticket purchases just because they can. I think I am beginning to see why the state is going broke.


Are you trying to say that that per capita income (PCI) is low???

Not sure what the foundation, basis or bitterness for the anti-CA rant is, but they may become millionaires because they make so much money each year. Note that PER CAPITA income per the BEA is defined as follows:


> Per capita personal income is calculated as the personal income of residents of a given area divided by the resident population of the area.
> http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/regional/lapi/2009/lapi0409.htm


It is not the average family income, nor average income per wage earner; it is average income PER PERSON ALIVE in the county. As such, the example *given by you *means that, on average, a family of 4 in that county "earns" 91,483*4=$365,932.

FYI the PCI for Mississippi is $26,000.


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## tombo (Jun 15, 2009)

davidvel said:


> Are you trying to say that that per capita income (PCI) is low???
> 
> Not sure what the foundation, basis or bitterness for the anti-CA rant is, but they may become millionaires because they make so much money each year. Note that PER CAPITA income per the BEA is defined as follows:
> 
> ...



I was responding to a quote that said that it is easy to become a millionaire in California and that everyone LAtravel knows is a millionaire. I was also responding because the statement was made that the millionaires LAtravel knew who purchased Marriott bought from the developer because they didn't need to buy resale inferring that those who purchase resale could not afford to buy from the developer. I was simply responding to those remarks, not bashing all of California.

I realize that California has more milionaires than any other state in the US and one of the highest per capita incomes, but not EVERYONE is a millionaire and I don't believe that it is EASY to become a millionaire anywhere, even in California. I specifically chose the RICHEST county in California to show that even in that county not EVERYONE is a millionaire. There are people selling cars, working at Mcdonalds, running mom and pop businesses, waiting tables, and even acting who make close to mininmum wage. There are people working on the millionaires cars, building their houses, landscaping their yards, being nannies for their children, teaching their children at school, and cleaning their pools who are not millionaires. A community built of nothing but millionaires could nt survive because you have to have a working class of people to do the menial hard labor jobs that it takes to keep an infrastructure operating.

The number of millionaire HOUSEHOLDS in California: 268138, the population of California in 2008 was 36,756,666 . There are a lot of people in California who have not found it easy to become millionaires, and trust me there are a whole lot of people in Mississippi who have known all their lives that it is hard if not impossible to become a millionaire here. 

Perhaps coming from a state with the fewest number of millionaires and lowest per capita incomes makes it hard to believe that becoming that rich anywhere could be easy and something the majority of people do. If that is the case where you live congratulations and I really should move to California where I too could easily become a millionaire.


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## davidvel (Jun 15, 2009)

tombo said:


> I was responding to a quote that said that it is easy to become a millionaire in California and that everyone LAtravel knows is a millionaire. I was also responding because the statement was made that the millionaires LAtravel knew who purchased Marriott bought from the developer because they didn't need to buy resale inferring that those who purchase resale could not afford to buy from the developer. I was simply responding to those remarks, not bashing all of California.



Thanks for the clarification, tombo. Don't get me wrong either, I agree wholeheartedly on the issue of wasting money, and it is not easy to become a millionaire, but... I think you just picked a bad example talking about Marin, CA. The numbers in California are truely staggering. 

I really like the opinions and vigorous debate, but don't like when mis-stated facts confuse the argument. My point was that _practically_ everyone in Marin is a millionare (and then some). Marin's residents (not workers there)  as a whole bring in about 22B in income _each year_. (248,096 residents * 91K income). 

Also the statistic you cite as to the number of millionaires in California excludes from net wealth their primary residence. http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2008/05/05/california-boasts-most-millionaires/ If you added in the equity in people's homes, that number would skyrocket. 

P.S. I live far from Marin county. California is broke because, the elected officials spend more thatn they take in, lock in spending every year on programs called entitlements that cannot be stopped in bad times, and have the highest public employee expenses in the nation, among other reasons . . .     .

But the weather sure is nice!


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## josh1231 (Jun 15, 2009)

I think your guys facts might be off. I see you got your numbers for per-capita income from Wikipedia, an always reliable source . The 2007 census lists the annual household income in Marin County as ~$106K, not the absurdly high ~$335K that a previous poster listed. So unless the average household has only 1.1 person it it the per capita is off.

I think where you both are incorrect is that the person who wrote the Wikipedia article incorrectly used the term per-capita income, when they should have used something else. 

Although I could be wrong.


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## lovearuba (Jun 15, 2009)

*Agree somewhat*



ace2000 said:


> Buying a timeshare from the developer or from the time share companies is foolish - anyone disagree? Good... we all agree with Dave and Susie then.
> As far as the value of purchasing a timeshare any other method? That's where it get's complicated - with the many different ways to purchase a timeshare on the resale market.
> 
> To really understand their advice about the matter, you would have to fully understand exactly what they mean by "purchasing a timeshare". Personally, I'm not worried about it... sorry.
> ...


 
Given my experience, I would say its a bad decision to buy one but it is also a personal choice which makes it my decision.  Others feel differently.  I also think once you determine you want to buy one and you take that big plunge, its really really hard to admit you made a mistake so you are likely to defend the decision.  I did this for awhile until it was no longer something I could even defend.


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## davidvel (Jun 15, 2009)

josh1231 said:


> I think your guys facts might be off. I see you got your numbers for per-capita income from Wikipedia, an always reliable source . The 2007 census lists the annual household income in Marin County as ~$106K, not the absurdly high ~$335K that a previous poster listed. So unless the average household has only 1.1 person it it the per capita is off.


My figures were not from wikipedia (although the Marin county PCI numbers were accurate). They were from the Bureau of Economic Analysis, U.S. Department of Commerce. I even included a link to the source.
In my example I did not mean to say that the average family of four in Marin, makes $365K. I was loosely responding to the assertion that a per capita income of 91K for a county was not high enough to lead to millionaires . 

What I should of said is that multiplying the average per capita income times four people results in the $365k in income. Obviosuly, children don't bring in $91K a year, so the hypothetical "family" is a bit off. In fact this means that some bring in hundreds of thousands if not millions per year.

It is still shocking that the residents of that county bring in 33.6B per year  in _income_. Good catch!


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## dioxide45 (Jun 15, 2009)

I wonder if Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman own any timeshares? They could be among us right now as a fellow Tugger....


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