# Veto Override on Tourism Bill in Hawaii



## slip (Jul 7, 2021)

With a veto override, lawmakers make a big statement on the future of tourism
					

The override vote was a strong message from lawmakers that they are dissatisfied with the way tourism is being handled by the state.




					www.hawaiinewsnow.com


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## Ty1on (Jul 7, 2021)

Bite the hand that feeds you.....


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## Henry M. (Jul 7, 2021)

Tourism takes a huge toll on popular destinations. While it brings money in, it is not the panacea tourists think they are to the locals. I don't know how to solve the problem, but unlimited growth in tourist arrivals is very detrimental to an area. Over the 21 years I've been going to the islandsi, I've seen how things are degrading due to ever increasing numbers of transient arrivals. 

Any one tourist is probably OK, but large hordes, even when well behaved, are a problem. Nevermind the entitled attitude that seems to be growing after the pandemic. I have local friends in the restaurant industry that have seen a big uptick in rude behavior when people can't get the table they want or can't just walk in. Masking requirements to walk to their table are also an issue for some. While some locals have attitude, so do many tourists. The increase in arrivals is likely because people are choosing to travel within the US while many other destinations remain inaccessible or still have COVID issues even when you can get there. The HTA has done a good job making Hawaii attractive to visitors. Now they need to figure out how to maintain control of the number of people arriving. 

Excessive tourism was a problem pre-COVID. COVID just showed how bad it really is after a lull in how many people went to the islands. They have to somehow curb the number of people going there.


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## Ty1on (Jul 7, 2021)

Henry M. said:


> Tourism takes a huge toll on popular destinations. While it brings money in, it is not the panacea tourists think they are to the locals. I don't know how to solve the problem, but unlimited growth in tourist arrivals is very detrimental to an area. Over the 21 years I've been going to the islandsi, I've seen how things are degrading due to ever increasing numbers of transient arrivals.
> 
> Any one tourist is probably OK, but large hordes, even when well behaved, are a problem. Nevermind the entitled attitude that seems to be growing after the pandemic. I have local friends in the restaurant industry that have seen a big uptick in rude behavior when people can't get the table they want or can't just walk in. Masking requirements to walk to their table are also an issue for some. While some locals have attitude, so do many tourists. The increase in arrivals is likely because people are choosing to travel within the US while many other destinations remain inaccessible or still have COVID issues even when you can get there. The HTA has done a good job making Hawaii attractive to visitors. Now they need to figure out how to maintain control of the number of people arriving.
> 
> Excessive tourism was a problem pre-COVID. COVID just showed how bad it really is after a lull in how many people went to the islands. They have to somehow curb the number of people going there.



Are agriculture, transoceanic shipping support, and fishery going to sustain the population that Hawaii has grown to?  I think Hawaii is one of the few places where the importance of tourism to the economy can't be overstated.


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## HGVC Lover (Jul 7, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> Are agriculture, transoceanic shipping support, and fishery going to sustain the population that Hawaii has grown to?  I think Hawaii is one of the few places where the importance of tourism to the economy can't be overstated.



The sky is not going to fall if Hawaii limits or changes it's tourism model.  Having lived there it appeared to me that there is a lot more that goes on than just catering to tourism.  Hawaii has a
lot of wealthy people who own property there and many Hawaiians are definitely people of means too....Hawaii is not some little back water place that needs tourism.....tourists are the one's who need the unique experience of Hawaii and it's traditions, geography and customs and obviously are willing to pay for it if you just look at the prices of rental cars......aloha.....


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## bnoble (Jul 7, 2021)

Whenever a tourist tells me how important tourism is...well, you can probably finish the rest.


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## DeniseM (Jul 7, 2021)

I realize that this can be a controversial topic, but I'd like to keep the thread open for discussion. We can do that if everyone sticks to the facts,   without putting down either tourists or residents of Hawaii.  Thank you for your help.


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## csodjd (Jul 7, 2021)

I think government has to be careful about taking actions while COVID restrictions are still coloring things. Restaurants are an example. Sure, it is a problem with lines, reservations needed way in advance, etc. But that is being impacted by COVID capacity and spacing requirements, and those will go away. A knee-jerk response may not produce the desired result because it’s based on the wrong data. By the fall there is a good chance all COVID changes/rules/restrictions will be gone (COVID won’t be, but there will be sufficient vaccination/immunity that it’s just another disease we don’t want to get) and only then can crowding and such be assessed, and solutions sought. 

There is no reason to believe whatever the state of tourism in Hawaii was in 2019 will not be the state of tourism post-COVID in 2022. Legislative or other changes should be best focused on addressing the problems that were there in 2019, and not so much the ones here in the summer of 2021.


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## DeniseM (Jul 7, 2021)

Friendly reminder - Let's stay away from COVID as much as possible so the thread can stay in this forum.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jul 7, 2021)

Question. What will happen to the existing infrastructure if tourism is scaled back significantly? What will happen to low utilization hotels, for example?

(We Hawaiian timeshare owners have seen what happens when the downward spiral happens to a time share. . . .)


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## controller1 (Jul 7, 2021)

It appears this veto of HB 862 will allow the counties to increase the current 10.25% TAT to 13.25%. The TAT (Transient Accommodations Tax or sometimes referred to as TSO - Timeshare Occupancy tax) is currently levied on each of our stays.


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## csodjd (Jul 7, 2021)

DeniseM said:


> Friendly reminder - Let's stay away from COVID as much as possible so the thread can stay in this forum.


Understood. But using COVID as a frame of reference of a period in time is not *about* COVID, virus, disease, testing, vaccines, etc. It is merely using it as a historical frame of reference for comparative purposes.


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## csodjd (Jul 7, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Question. What will happen to the existing infrastructure if tourism is scaled back significantly? What will happen to low utilization hotels, for example?
> 
> (We Hawaiian timeshare owners have seen what happens when the downward spiral happens to a time share. . . .)


The world of unintended consequences will be a very busy place of tourism is scaled back significantly.


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## slip (Jul 7, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Question. What will happen to the existing infrastructure if tourism is scaled back significantly? What will happen to low utilization hotels, for example?
> 
> (We Hawaiian timeshare owners have seen what happens when the downward spiral happens to a time share. . . .)



The same may be able to be said for office space too. Some businesses may decide to have people continue to work from home so that may leave those buildings empty.


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## slip (Jul 7, 2021)

We just got back from my wife’s doctors appointment and drove down Kalakaua on the way back home. It was very busy. The beaches were very busy and many people were walking along the shops and that was at 9:30am.

It is a Holiday week so we’ll see how next week is.

This is the first week that my company had all our people back in the office. One thing I still notice is that my commute to and from work are still shorter. I think it has something to do with the shortage of employees. Everyone still needs workers so there are still not as many people on the road. I now on other parts of the island at different times it still gets very crowded.

My company has just upped its sign-on bonus for delivery drivers to $10,000 and we still need them on every island.


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## Ty1on (Jul 7, 2021)

What are Tammy people?


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## DeniseM (Jul 7, 2021)

csodjd said:


> Understood. But using COVID as a frame of reference of a period in time is not *about* COVID, virus, disease, testing, vaccines, etc. It is merely using it as a historical frame of reference for comparative purposes.



I feel ya - but please understand that the COVID wackos on TUG have created this situation, and we are just trying to keep it in the COVID forum and out of the other forums on TUG, because people got sick of it polluting the other forums. YMMV


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## Henry M. (Jul 7, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> Are agriculture, transoceanic shipping support, and fishery going to sustain the population that Hawaii has grown to?  I think Hawaii is one of the few places where the importance of tourism to the economy can't be overstated.



Tourism is important, but it needs to be more controlled. Just bringing more and more people in will destroy the islands and kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. They need to figure out some way to bring other industry and they also need a way to limit the number of tourists that come in. They don't need to eliminate tourism, just limit it to manageable levels.

For example, they could figure out a way to make it more attractive for high tech or remote workers to come live on the islands and make it more difficult/expensive for tourists, so there are fewer of them.

i am a tourist too, but I see first hand how things are going downhill due to excessive numbers of people coming in. The HTA was doing too good of a job getting people to come!


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## slip (Jul 7, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> What are Tammy people?



lol, darn phone, many people.


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## lynne (Jul 7, 2021)

Follow-up article based on the veto override









						State leaders question need to market Hawaii to tourists
					

The leaders of the state House and Senate said today that the summer surge in tourists shows that Hawaii no longer needs to be marketed as a tourist destination and invited the Hawaii Tourism Authority to help figure out how HTA can better manage tourists once they arrive and reduce community...




					www.staradvertiser.com


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## slip (Jul 7, 2021)

Tourism in Hawaii is a complex problem and there are no easy solutions. The one thing I would have hoped for is, if they were serious about change they would have worked on it the year the state was closed down so they could have started something when they opened up. But maybe that wasn’t possible.


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## Ty1on (Jul 7, 2021)

slip said:


> lol, darn phone, many people.


Haha I actually thoughts it was slang or something I had never heard.....


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## JIMinNC (Jul 7, 2021)

This is not an issue just in Hawaii, but has been an increasing issue all over the world in many attractive places. If you've ever been to Cinque Terre in Italy, you can see the impact of over-tourism in a fragile and remote locale. Places like Hawaii and Cinque Terre used to be places where only people of certain means were able to travel, but over the last few decades, travel access has been equalized all over the world, and many more people now have the ability and resources to travel to these places, creating the problem of over-tourism. Many of these places will have tough decisions to make, but the most realistic solutions may involve refocusing these destinations with limited resources to lower volume but higher value tourism, and by so doing, let market forces control the numbers. That way, the same local economic impact could come from fewer people that spend more.


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## slip (Jul 7, 2021)

JIMinNC said:


> This is not an issue just in Hawaii, but has been an increasing issue all over the world in many attractive places. If you've ever been to Cinque Terre in Italy, you can see the impact of over-tourism in a fragile and remote locale. Places like Hawaii and Cinque Terre used to be places where only people of certain means were able to travel, but over the last few decades, travel access has been equalized all over the world, and many more people now have the ability and resources to travel to these places, creating the problem of over-tourism. Many of these places will have tough decisions to make, but the most realistic solutions may involve refocusing these destinations with limited resources to lower volume but higher value tourism, and by so doing, let market forces control the numbers. That way, the same local economic impact could come from fewer people that spend more.



I have heard this term Higher Value Tourism before but I don’t know of any place that has made that work?


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## JIMinNC (Jul 7, 2021)

slip said:


> I have heard this term Higher Value Tourism before but I don’t know of any place that has made that work?



Maybe French Polynesia has. Most of the hotels there are high-end with over water bungalows, especially on Bora Bora and Moorea. It's not a place for budget travelers.  Much more unspoiled than Hawaii. We were there two years ago. The one place I've been that is more beautiful than Hawaii.


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## Ty1on (Jul 8, 2021)

JIMinNC said:


> Maybe French Polynesia has. Most of the hotels there are high-end with over water bungalows, especially on Bora Bora and Moorea. It's not a place for budget travelers.  Much more unspoiled than Hawaii. We were there two years ago. The one place I've been that is more beautiful than Hawaii.


St Moritz, Monaco, there are several other examples, not in the unspoiled sense, but in the pricing out the average traveler sense.

Oh Maldives....that's a place that's unspoiled and priced to keep it that way!


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## zentraveler (Jul 8, 2021)

JIMinNC said:


> This is not an issue just in Hawaii, but has been an increasing issue all over the world in many attractive places. If you've ever been to Cinque Terre in Italy, you can see the impact of over-tourism in a fragile and remote locale. Places like Hawaii and Cinque Terre used to be places where only people of certain means were able to travel, but over the last few decades, travel access has been equalized all over the world, and many more people now have the ability and resources to travel to these places, creating the problem of over-tourism. Many of these places will have tough decisions to make, but the most realistic solutions may involve refocusing these destinations with limited resources to lower volume but higher value tourism, and by so doing, let market forces control the numbers. That way, the same local economic impact could come from fewer people that spend more.



They don't even need to be that remote to threaten a fragile land... Venice. And it is an ever growing list.


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## slip (Jul 8, 2021)

I don’t see how they would control what businesses are charging. Even if they did accomplish that, there would be a ton of empty buildings because there would be less people and who would want to pay a premium for that atmosphere? Definitely not easy to accomplish.


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## Ty1on (Jul 8, 2021)

slip said:


> I don’t see how they would control what businesses are charging. Even if they did accomplish that, there would be a ton of empty buildings because there would be less people and who would want to pay a premium for that atmosphere? Definitely not easy to accomplish.


The key would be on taxation, not determining what innkeepers charge.


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## slip (Jul 8, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> The key would be on taxation, not determining what innkeepers charge.



I just don’t see that accomplishing what needs to be done.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 8, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> The key would be on taxation, not determining what innkeepers charge.


Not just taxes and fees, but zoning that limits new hotel and visitor-focused infrastructure. With no new supply the free market takes over and prices rise. Mid-tier and lower end property owners then might see more value to upgrade to a higher tier, further up scaling their market. The change can’t happen overnight, but over time it can evolve.

Too much tourism can ruin what made a place popular to begin with. As Glen Frey and Don Henley of The Eagles wrote in their song “The Last Resort”… “They called it paradise, I don’t know why. Call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye”


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## JeffC (Jul 8, 2021)

Taxation alone won’t significantly reduce the number of tourists. Hawaii is a unique travel destination, people will pay 3% more TAT to go there. Precovid we went to Hawaii yearly for 10-14 days in the winter. I never felt an anti tourist vibe from the majority of Hawaiians we’ve dealt with. If anything we felt them more accepting. We’re a biracial family and Hawaii is one place that my son never got the “what are you” question. If Hawaii or any other tourist destination wants to reduce tourism they have to restrict access and accommodations. I’m thinking restricting flights, rental car numbers, air bnb and home rentals, rezoning hotels and TS’s to residential use. Once access is restricted prices will go up and tourist numbers will go down.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jul 8, 2021)

How about 30% more TAT, or 300% more. Shucks, why not 3,000% more.

As far as restricting access, you run into the Interstate Commerce clause of the US Constitution. Lawyers will have a field day.


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## Henry M. (Jul 8, 2021)

It is a dilemma how to accomplish protecting the destination while allowing some access to it. Ultimately, people that want to go somewhere won't be allowed to or will be prevented from going due to excessive cost. There is no way to prevent some sort of process to keep certain people out, and that will cause resentment and anguish for some.

Molokai was successful by not allowing tourism-oriented development. It remains "backward" according to some, but "genuine and unspoiled" according to others.

Something has to be done. The status quo will destroy the current tourist destinations.


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## Ty1on (Jul 8, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> How about 30% more TAT, or 300% more. Shucks, why not 3,000% more.
> 
> As far as restricting access, you run into the Interstate Commerce clause of the US Constitution. Lawyers will have a field day.


They couldn't apply differential access, but differential taxes and fees seem like they have been supported in case law.


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## DaveNV (Jul 8, 2021)

When I lived on Oahu, (late 1960's to early 1970's), there was a big dust-up over hotel construction.  A lot of controversy was happening over how many hotel rooms were enough, and how to handle the rapidly growing travel industry.  I recall reading at that time, just in Waikiki, that at the height of the travel season there were still over 3000 empty hotel rooms on any given day.  The State started housing Welfare families in those empty rooms, as a way to provide housing that didn't exist in the local economy.  But construction went on and on.  Photos of Diamond Head taken over the tops of Waikiki buildings showed dozens on construction cranes in place, presumably building or rebuilding the Waikiki infrastructure.  It became something of a local joke that the Nene was being replaced by the Construction Crane as the new Hawaii state bird.

Property values in Hawaii have been crazy for a long time, so the issues of the last year aren't creating anything new - try pricing out a single family home in the southern end of Oahu.  The numbers are staggering.

How do you fix it?  I don't know.  Charging more hotel room taxes on visitors is one thing, but isn't enough to solve a state-wide issue.  Raising prices on rental cars only shows how resourceful people can be when trying to find other means of transportation - or they'll pay the higher prices.  I'm surprised there isn't a "car sharing" thing happening (although it may be, and I just haven't heard of it) where multiple tourist visitor families will share one rental car, and split the costs.  Limiting airline flights isn't the answer - the airlines will still schedule the flights if there is enough passenger demand.  I don't think one industry will change the overall actions of other industries in Hawaii.

And then there is the other side of the spectrum:  Locals in Hawaii who rely on tourists to make their monthly income will be negatively affected if tourism is reduced, as has been seen during the last year.  People who historically lived in the Islands and expected to live out their golden years in Hawaii are moving to the Mainland.  I don't have specific numbers, but I know Las Vegas is known as the Ninth Island for a reason, and it's not all about gambling.  There is a very large Hawaiian presence in Nevada and Arizona these days.

I don't have answers, just questions, and long distance observations.  But yes, I still have vacation plans to Hawaii, and I'll pay the additional taxes required to go there.  I'll pay the inflated rental car rates, and I'll pay the high restaurant prices at that time.  About the only thing I can see changing, if these prices continue to go up, will be the frequency of how often I travel to Hawaii. The rest is just economics.

Dave


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## youppi (Jul 8, 2021)

Some solutions https://www.theinvisibletourist.com/travel-avoid-contributing-to-overtourism-solutions/


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## TheHappyWanderer (Jul 8, 2021)

Maybe Hawaii should develop a "Haoles Welcome Again! (as long as you're rich)"  tourism marketing campaign.


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## controller1 (Jul 8, 2021)

youppi said:


> Some solutions https://www.theinvisibletourist.com/travel-avoid-contributing-to-overtourism-solutions/



I like the Top Ten Tips!


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## Tamaradarann (Jul 9, 2021)

controller1 said:


> It appears this veto of HB 862 will allow the counties to increase the current 10.25% TAT to 13.25%. The TAT (Transient Accommodations Tax or sometimes referred to as TSO - Timeshare Occupancy tax) is currently levied on each of our stays.



I know that raising taxes will not be the total solution but the TAT is not the only tax that should be reconfigured to benefit from the high number of tourists and perhaps attract less tourists and absentee owners and provide the government with more funds to deal with infrastructure and maintenance of Hawaii.  

The GET, which is collected like a sales tax, that one pays when buying anything in Hawaii should be changed.  It is very low but regressive. It is only 4-4.5% depending on the island but it taxes unprepared food.(supermarket and Costco type food).  It should be raised considerably and unprepared food like drugstore drugs should be except.  Then it would tax restaurant food, which is the main food source for tourists and perhaps the more wealthy, and exempt unprepared food which is what lower income people buy who prepare most meals at home.  It would also raise the taxes on the other stuff that tourists primarily buy.  In New York our sales tax is about 9% but it does NOT tax unprepared food.

The property taxes are extremently low in Hawaii.  Of course it enables lower income people to maintain themselves.  There should be a rate for lower income local people and a much higher rates for higher income people and out of State absentee owners.  One of the reasons that Hawaii Real Estate is so expensive to buy is that the property tax rate is so low that the monthly payments are attractive to buy.  A million dollar house or condominium pays about $3000/year on property taxes.  On Long Island in New York the property tax would be about 10 times as much or $30,000 for the same valued property.  Raising the property taxes considerably would lower the real estate prices and make it more affordable for lower income people to buy and live in Hawaii.  It would also bring in considerable revenue to the government.  

While the higher costs of coming to Hawaii and being an absentee owner would prevent some out of state people from coming perhaps the more important benefit to Hawaii is the increase in revenue to the government so it could repair and maintain the infrastructure and perhaps police the undesireable behavior.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 9, 2021)

Just seems like it will be a tax increase to me, with fewer services (cuts in HTA). I am sure that most of the counties will take advantage of the 3% tax they can increase.


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## fernow (Jul 9, 2021)

When I was a kid,  only rich people could afford to go to Hawaii.  Looks like that's where we're headed again.  

Rich don't care about tourism.  They are rich and can do whatever they want.  People on government assistance don't care about tourism.  They are getting their checks so why have tourists competing for space on "their" beaches.  

Who gets "hurt" on the island and with their travel plans?  Middle class as usual.

The article states that the "politics are at play".  Yep.  Everywhere.

PS: Point of order.  Is it OK if I call people "wackos" going forward?


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jul 9, 2021)

Rule of thumb: Would you mind being call "wacko"?


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## csodjd (Jul 9, 2021)

I see a more focused path to addressing these issues. Two come easily to mind. Limits on the number of rental cars is one. Not for the price impact, though that too helps. But more for just reducing tourism car-related traffic and parking issues. A second is limits on the daily number of non-residents that can visit various sites. 

it is, in my view, not so much the number of people that is the problem, it is what all those people do once they are on an island. A car on the road to Hana is a car on the road to Hana, whether the car is rented by a rich person or a poor person. The key to reducing cars is not a “wealth screen,” it is to reduce the number of tourist cars. 

Fees for entry into various public lands can also be implemented to limit numbers. Like Yosemite does. When you enter the park you pass through an entry point, pay a fee for your car (about $20) and if the park is “full” you cannot enter. Hawaii could easily implement that kind of gatekeeping in various places at waterfalls, etc. 

If tourists want to come, go to their hotel/TS and go to the beach, great. But regulate/control the other activities to reduce crowding, damage, etc.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jul 9, 2021)

csodjd said:


> I see a more focused path to addressing these issues. Two come easily to mind. Limits on the number of rental cars is one. Not for the price impact, though that too helps. But more for just reducing tourism car-related traffic and parking issues. A second is limits on the daily number of non-residents that can visit various sites.
> 
> it is, in my view, not so much the number of people that is the problem, it is what all those people do once they are on an island. A car on the road to Hana is a car on the road to Hana, whether the car is rented by a rich person or a poor person. The key to reducing cars is not a “wealth screen,” it is to reduce the number of tourist cars.
> 
> ...


Does Yosemite give preferential access to Californian residents over other tourists?


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## lynne (Jul 9, 2021)

Tamaradarann said:


> I know that raising taxes will not be the total solution but the TAT is not the only tax that should be reconfigured to benefit from the high number of tourists and perhaps attract less tourists and absentee owners and provide the government with more funds to deal with infrastructure and maintenance of Hawaii.
> 
> The GET, which is collected like a sales tax, that one pays when buying anything in Hawaii should be changed.  It is very low but regressive. It is only 4-4.5% depending on the island but it taxes unprepared food.(supermarket and Costco type food).  It should be raised considerably and unprepared food like drugstore drugs should be except.  Then it would tax restaurant food, which is the main food source for tourists and perhaps the more wealthy, and exempt unprepared food which is what lower income people buy who prepare most meals at home.  It would also raise the taxes on the other stuff that tourists primarily buy.  In New York our sales tax is about 9% but it does NOT tax unprepared food.
> 
> ...


Our property taxes in Hawaii do not include education which is the bulk of the property tax in NY.  The key in NY was living in a community that incorporated large businesses that would pick up the majority of the tax thus making the property tax manageable.  Prior to moving to Hawaii, we lived in Northport which had one of the lower property taxes on Long Island due to having the Northport Power Station picking up a large percentage of the property tax costs. 

If education was included into the Hawaii Tax property tax structure, the costs would increase significantly. 

Here is the chart for this coming year:
For the 2020-2021 Fiscal Year, below are property Tax Rates broken down by Island and Class. Rates noted are per $1K of assessed value. As an example, on Maui for an owner-occupied property assessed at $1M (which falls in Tier 2), the annual tax is $2,560 - making it one of the lowest tax rates in the country for homeowners.


*2020 to 2021 Real Property Tax Rates*

CountyClass / CategoryPer $1K of Assessed Value (Structure)Per $1K of Assessed Value (Land)
 

MAUI (includes LanaiAgricultural$5.94$5.94and Molokai)Apartment$5.55$5.55Commercial Tier 1$6.29$6.29Commercial Tier 2$6.29$6.29Commercial Tier 3$7.39$7.39Commercial Residential$4.40$4.40Conservation$6.43$6.43Owner Occupied Tier 1$2.51$2.51Owner Occupied Tier 2$2.56$2.56Owner Occupied Tier 3$2.61$2.61Hotel/Resort$10.70$10.70Industrial$7.20$7.20Non-Owner Occupied Tier 1$5.45$5.45Non-Owner Occupied Tier 2$6.05$6.05Non-Owner Occupied Tier 3$6.90$6.90Residential$5.60$5.60Time Share$14.40$14.40Short-Term Rental ALL TIERS$11.08$11.08TIER 1: less than $800KTIER 2: $800K TO $1.5MTIER 3: more than $1.5MHONOLULU (Oahu)Agricultural$5.70$5.70Agricultural Vacant$8.50$8.50Bed and Breakfast$6.50$6.50Commercial$12.40$12.40 Hotel/Resort$13.90$13.90Industrial$12.40$12.40Preservation$5.70$5.70Public Service$0.00$0.00Residential$3.50$3.50Residential A (less than $1M value)$4.50$4.50Residential A (more than $1M value)$10.50$10.50KAUAIAgricultural$6.75$6.75Commercial$8.10$8.10Commercial Residential$5.05$5.05Conservation$6.75$6.75Homestead$3.05$3.05Hotel/Resort$10.85$10.85Industrial$8.10$8.10Residential$6.05$6.05Residential Investor$9.40$9.40Vacation Rental$9.85$9.85HAWAII (Big Island)Affordable Renting Housing$6.15$6.15Agricultural/Native Forests$9.35$9.35Apartment$11.70$11.70Commercial$10.70$10.70Conservation$11.55$11.55Homeowner$6.15$6.15Hotel/Resort$11.55$11.55Industrial$10.70$10.70Residential (up to $2M)$11.10$11.10Residential ($2M +)$13.60$13.60


Hawaii’s general excise tax takes a toll on the cost of living in Hawaii for no other state imposes its transaction tax on as broad a base. In other states where there is a sales tax, the tax usually applies only to goods or things. Rarely are services taxed. In fact that is one reason why many other jurisdictions have a hotel room tax. That is because the retail sales tax is not imposed on services which hotel rentals are considered. Thus a separate room tax was devised and is imposed.

But the cost of the general excise tax extends far beyond what consumers see at the cash register. As has been stated many times before, if Hawaii were to impose a retail sales tax as found in other states on the mainland, our rate would have to be as much as 10% or 11% to generate the same amount of dollars as the 4% general excise tax rate does. If food were removed from the base, the rate would have to go as high as 16% or 17% to generate the same amount of dollars.


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## DeniseM (Jul 9, 2021)

General Friendly Reminder: Let's not make this "us against them."  This is about figuring out solutions that work for both visitors and residents.


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## Ty1on (Jul 9, 2021)

csodjd said:


> I see a more focused path to addressing these issues. Two come easily to mind. Limits on the number of rental cars is one. Not for the price impact, though that too helps. But more for just reducing tourism car-related traffic and parking issues.



How do you enforce that?  I rent a car in my name, my wife/son/whoever rents one in their name.  A single person can only drive one car at a time anyway.


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## Ty1on (Jul 9, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Does Yosemite give preferential access to Californian residents over other tourists?



Yosemite is a national park.  California has no control over its admissions.

But to your point, I think any state that gave preferential access based on residency would trip over the Equal Protection clause.


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## csodjd (Jul 9, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Does Yosemite give preferential access to Californian residents over other tourists?


Not that I recall, but they do have multi-day passes and such so there are different price points. Of course, with Yosemite, everyone entering is a tourist.


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## csodjd (Jul 9, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> How do you enforce that?  I rent a car in my name, my wife/son/whoever rents one in their name.  A single person can only drive one car at a time anyway.


There are only X number of cars available for rental. The “enforcement” or regulation is at the level of the rental car business. Yes, it is possible people will break the law (with significant risk since they would have to advertise their illegal activity), but that’s going to be an immaterial overall number relative to the number of cars rented out by Avis, Hertz, National, etc. 

Just like only so many people can occupy a restaurant, the number of cars that Avis (and each other agency) is allowed to rent daily can be regulated, and you are required to register and have a ($250/year) license to rent car(s).


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## Ty1on (Jul 9, 2021)

csodjd said:


> There are only X number of cars available for rental. The “enforcement” or regulation is at the level of the rental car business. Yes, it is possible people will break the law (with significant risk since they would have to advertise their illegal activity), but that’s going to be an immaterial overall number relative to the number of cars rented out by Avis, Hertz, National, etc.
> 
> Just like only so many people can occupy a restaurant, the number of cars that Avis (and each other agency) is allowed to rent daily can be regulated, and you are required to register and have a ($250/year) license to rent car(s).


Ah you mean limits on the number of cars that may be rented out.


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## bnoble (Jul 9, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> I think any state that gave preferential access based on residency would trip over the Equal Protection clause.


Every State Park system that I've visited has a lower rate for residents than out-of-state folks; surely there are ways to make things like this work.


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## Ty1on (Jul 9, 2021)

bnoble said:


> Every State Park system that I've visited has a lower rate for residents than out-of-state folks; surely there are ways to make things like this work.


Rate differences are reasonably defended by resident tax payments.  Excluding non residents entirely would be a different ballgame in my opinion.


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## JIMinNC (Jul 9, 2021)

For our condo on Hilton Head Island, since it is only a part time residence for us, we pay about double or more the property tax rate that a full time resident pays. So there is a precedent for charging non-residents higher taxes.


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## lynne (Jul 9, 2021)

*How Neighbor Islands Are Working To Address Overtourism In Hawaii*









						How Neighbor Islands Are Working To Address Overtourism In Hawaii
					

As the Hawaii Tourism Authority shifts from marketing to tourism management, the counties are taking matters into their own hands with new hotel bans and airport shuttle systems.




					www.civilbeat.org
				












						Pololū Trail Steward Pilot Project to Begin in August | Big Island Now
					

Pololū Valley, nestled in North Kohala, is one of the Big Island's most iconic and historical regions.




					bigislandnow.com


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## CalGalTraveler (Jul 9, 2021)

Maui council measure would pause hotel building permits - Hawaii Tribune-Herald
					

WAILUKU, Maui — A Maui County Council committee passed a bill imposing a moratorium on building permits for visitor accommodations in west and south Maui — the county’s biggest tourist districts.




					www.hawaiitribune-herald.com
				





The bill notes the Maui Island Plan calls for a daily visitor population that doesn’t exceed one-third of the resident population, yet in 2019 the daily visitor census stood at about 70,000 while the resident population was under 150,000.


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## Ty1on (Jul 9, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Maui council measure would pause hotel building permits - Hawaii Tribune-Herald
> 
> 
> WAILUKU, Maui — A Maui County Council committee passed a bill imposing a moratorium on building permits for visitor accommodations in west and south Maui — the county’s biggest tourist districts.
> ...



Seems to me they're a bit late with the moratorium, but it's a good first step.

A building moratorium in Tahoe explains why virtually every accommodation you find up there is tired.  But I did and do support the moratorium because the lake water quality was declining rapidly by the 80s.  I'm not sure of the detail, but I know if you want to build a new structure, it has to replace an existing structure that you have to raze.  I don't think it has to be on the same property, but I'm not certain.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jul 9, 2021)

Tahoe is still doing plenty of building if you are willing to pay. They call the governance body TRPA or "Tahoe Rich Peoples Association." 

TRPA would never allow building something like Tahoe Keys on fragile wetlands anymore so there has been some benefit.

On Maui the new HGVC at Keihei must have made it under the moratorium deadline and may be the last new build for a while.

I wonder if remodels will be allowed. If HGVC /Diamond acquisition passes, they will want to gut the pink Embassy Diamond property just north of Nanea to raise to Hilton standards.


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## csodjd (Jul 9, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> Ah you mean limits on the number of cars that may be rented out.


Yes, exactly.


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## csodjd (Jul 9, 2021)

lynne said:


> Our property taxes in Hawaii do not include education which is the bulk of the property tax in NY.  The key in NY was living in a community that incorporated large businesses that would pick up the majority of the tax thus making the property tax manageable.  Prior to moving to Hawaii, we lived in Northport which had one of the lower property taxes on Long Island due to having the Northport Power Station picking up a large percentage of the property tax costs.
> 
> If education was included into the Hawaii Tax property tax structure, the costs would increase significantly.
> 
> ...


I was told that one reason property taxes are low is that there is a tax on the sale of real property. Don’t know if that’s true or not, but that’s what I was told. 

We just finished a fairly costly renovation of our condo, and it was “interesting” to me paying tax on the contractor’s fee. I’m not used to that coming from California. As a lawyer I can only imagine how people would respond to getting my bill (time x hourly rate) and having tax added to it.


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## lynne (Jul 9, 2021)

csodjd said:


> I was told that one reason property taxes are low is that there is a tax on the sale of real property. Don’t know if that’s true or not, but that’s what I was told.
> 
> We just finished a fairly costly renovation of our condo, and it was “interesting” to me paying tax on the contractor’s fee. I’m not used to that coming from California. As a lawyer I can only imagine how people would respond to getting my bill (time x hourly rate) and having tax added to it.


Not really a tax, but here in Hawaii County we were charged a Fee Conveyance for the Warranty Deed on vacant land, condo (Apartment Deed) and when we purchased our first home here in 2001.  Back then the fee was .001% of the sale price which is now between .002% and .006% dependending on the sale price of the.  Other counties' have different calculations.  

Unfortunate, but true, we pay GET on all services, our architect,  builder, landscaper, physician and medical tests.   Oh yes, our trust attorney as well charges us GET.


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## Tamaradarann (Jul 10, 2021)

lynne said:


> Our property taxes in Hawaii do not include education which is the bulk of the property tax in NY.  The key in NY was living in a community that incorporated large businesses that would pick up the majority of the tax thus making the property tax manageable.  Prior to moving to Hawaii, we lived in Northport which had one of the lower property taxes on Long Island due to having the Northport Power Station picking up a large percentage of the property tax costs.
> 
> If education was included into the Hawaii Tax property tax structure, the costs would increase significantly.
> 
> ...



Lynn everything you are saying here is true.  I understand what you are saying about the GET since I am currently renting my condo in Honolulu and I found out that I need to pay the GET on my gross rental income even though there is no net income after expenses so I don't have to pay any income taxes on the rental income.  

The purpose of my post was to point out some of the ways that Hawaii could rework its tax structure to collect less taxes and make it less expensive for lower income people that live in Hawaii and to collect more taxes and make it more expensive for those that visit Hawaii, are absentee owners, and have higher incomes.  Your point is well taken about the need for a higher sales tax if they did away with the GET.  However, while I view a higher sales tax, that exempts food, as a good thing, it wouldn't have to be as high as you indicate if the schools were funded from higher property taxes like on Long Island.  Higher property taxes on higher income people, high priced properties, and out of state owners would also keep the lid on real estate prices which would make Hawaii more affordable for the lower income people who need to work 2 and 3 jobs to afford to live. 

What is higher income and high priced properties is certainly up for discussion.  But that is why we have legislatures; to set and tweek the numbers to get it right.  I would do a transition over a number of years to assure that a drastic change didn't as they say "upset the apple cart".


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## Mrbill83 (Jul 10, 2021)

controller1 said:


> It appears this veto of HB 862 will allow the counties to increase the current 10.25% TAT to 13.25%. The TAT (Transient Accommodations Tax or sometimes referred to as TSO - Timeshare Occupancy tax) is currently levied on each of our stays.


Sad part is the local governments keep spending without any cost cutting measures. 

[TUG has a COVID Forum, and this is not it. Please avoid editorializing about COVID-19, if you don't want this thread moved to the COVID Forum.]


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## InkysMom (Jul 10, 2021)

bnoble said:


> Whenever a tourist tells me how important tourism is...well, you can probably finish the rest.


So, just because someone recognizes the importance of tourism to the state of Hawaii, they can’t comment because they are not locals?  I studied Economics.  Increased taxation usually restricts commerce.  If that’s what they want, well fine. But they should keep in mind that there are jobs involved.  Increase taxes, fewer arrivals (tourists); fewer tourists, fewer jobs needed.


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## daviator (Jul 10, 2021)

As a former Hawaii resident, I'm well aware of most of the issues surrounding tourism.  But the fact remains that tourism is responsible for a huge percentage of employment in the state.  Without tourists, there is a huge direct impact on jobs, and a very significant indirect impact as well.  Time will tell whether they come to regret moves that keep people from visiting.


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## daviator (Jul 10, 2021)

The thing people often miss when thinking about the General Excise Tax is that GET can often be applied multiple times to the same goods and services.  It applies pretty much any time money changes hands.  So in a simple example, when the farmer sells produce to the distributor, he pays GET.  When the distributor sells the produce to the store, they pay GET.  And when the store sells that same produce to the consumer, they pay GET again (and pass that cost on to the consumer, who then pays GET on the GET.)

So the 4% or 4.5% rate seems lower than it effectively is.  But Hawaii has used that system for most of the last century and they have a huge bureaucracy around it, I'd be surprised to see it go away.

Even things like apartment rentals are subject to GET.


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## HGVC Lover (Jul 10, 2021)

csodjd said:


> Not that I recall, but they do have multi-day passes and such so there are different price points. Of course, with Yosemite, everyone entering is a tourist.



Yosemite National Park has used a reservation system for a limited number of people to enter the park each day and if you do not have a reservation there is no entrance.  The reservations were snapped up pretty fast for both summers.  We just spent 10 days in Yosemite and I must say the park was much more enjoyable because there were not hordes of people.   We also saw much more wildlife then we have in all of our previous summers.  Park businesses are not being hurt at all by the control of number of people who can visit.  Also, not everyone entering the park is a tourist....there are about 3,000 park employees who live in Yosemite and also you can own homes in Yosemite (Wawona) with a medium price of $840,000.

We lived on Hawaii island for many years and are visiting the next two months.  I can say the number of tourists being flown here is just insane.  There were at least 4 other United flights land when we landed and that was unheard of in the past.  The island is definitely over run with tourists this summer and I can see why many locals have concerns.....mainly that there is a lack of respect for the aina and aloha......no one is saying NO tourists......they are saying limit the number who can visit and seek a happy medium.....I support that concept.....and someone is making money from tourists but I am not sure it is the locals....probably the big corporations.....but at what costs to the Hawaii lifestyle?


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## Tamaradarann (Jul 11, 2021)

daviator said:


> The thing people often miss when thinking about the General Excise Tax is that GET can often be applied multiple times to the same goods and services.  It applies pretty much any time money changes hands.  So in a simple example, when the farmer sells produce to the distributor, he pays GET.  When the distributor sells the produce to the store, they pay GET.  And when the store sells that same produce to the consumer, they pay GET again (and pass that cost on to the consumer, who then pays GET on the GET.)
> 
> So the 4% or 4.5% rate seems lower than it effectively is.  But Hawaii has used that system for most of the last century and they have a huge bureaucracy around it, I'd be surprised to see it go away.
> 
> Even things like apartment rentals are subject to GET.



I know what you are saying is true about the GET:

First of all I, unknowingly, got hit with the GET for the condo I am rentingl in Waikiki.  I am NEVER late on any tax or other payments but I had no clue that it was taxable.  I was a few months late paying the first payment and had to pay a late fee on top of the GET.

Second, the cost of food in the supermarkets is high in Hawaii even thought the prices in Walmart, Target Costco, and Sam's is very comparable to Long Island.  Perhaps that is because of the GET being added along the way as you suggest and the large box stores do their purchasing away from Hawaii so no GET is added.  Of course, the GET is added one last time on all unprepared food to make it just a little more costly for those that eat at home.  Hawaii get rid of the GET!   WOW WHAT A SLOGAN!


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## Dean (Jul 11, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> But to your point, I think any state that gave preferential access based on residency would trip over the Equal Protection clause.


However, business do it routinely including those who cater to tourists in HI, I'll throw in Disney as well.


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## csodjd (Jul 11, 2021)

HGVC Lover said:


> Yosemite National Park has used a reservation system for a limited number of people to enter the park each day and if you do not have a reservation there is no entrance.  The reservations were snapped up pretty fast for both summers.  We just spent 10 days in Yosemite and I must say the park was much more enjoyable because there were not hordes of people.   We also saw much more wildlife then we have in all of our previous summers.  Park businesses are not being hurt at all by the control of number of people who can visit.  Also, not everyone entering the park is a tourist....there are about 3,000 park employees who live in Yosemite and also you can own homes in Yosemite (Wawona) with a medium price of $840,000.
> 
> We lived on Hawaii island for many years and are visiting the next two months.  I can say the number of tourists being flown here is just insane.  There were at least 4 other United flights land when we landed and that was unheard of in the past.  The island is definitely over run with tourists this summer and I can see why many locals have concerns.....mainly that there is a lack of respect for the aina and aloha......no one is saying NO tourists......they are saying limit the number who can visit and seek a happy medium.....I support that concept.....and someone is making money from tourists but I am not sure it is the locals....probably the big corporations.....but at what costs to the Hawaii lifestyle?


What I find so curious is that while it is indeed very busy with tourism (at least in Oahu where I have been), it is almost entirely from the US mainland. There are very few from Asia, which normally accounts for a large number of tourists. So how do those reconcile? What happens when Asia’s travel restrictions ease and full flights from Asia start arriving? If the starting place is an island full of tourists, what happens next? 

We love Hawaii and intend to spend more and more time there, and are thankful to have bought our own place so we no longer need reservations, or even to plan ahead. Next up is leasing a car which I plan to do when I get back in a week.


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## Ty1on (Jul 11, 2021)

Dean said:


> However, business do it routinely including those who cater to tourists in HI, I'll throw in Disney as well.


Businesses aren't beholden to constitutional limits on govt


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## Dean (Jul 11, 2021)

Ty1on said:


> Businesses aren't beholden to constitutional limits on govt


Agreed but they are often governed by laws instituted by government.  Part of the conversation was essentially about exclusivity and fairness and ultimately my point is that fairness is an illusion.


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## lynne (Jul 11, 2021)

Tamaradarann said:


> I know what you are saying is true about the GET:
> 
> First of all I, unknowingly, got hit with the GET for the condo I am rentingl in Waikiki.  I am NEVER late on any tax or other payments but I had no clue that it was taxable.  I was a few months late paying the first payment and had to pay a late fee on top of the GET.
> 
> Second, the cost of food in the supermarkets is high in Hawaii even thought the prices in Walmart, Target Costco, and Sam's is very comparable to Long Island.  Perhaps that is because of the GET being added along the way as you suggest and the large box stores do their purchasing away from Hawaii so no GET is added.  Of course, the GET is added one last time on all unprepared food to make it just a little more costly for those that eat at home.  Hawaii get rid of the GET!   WOW WHAT A SLOGAN!


The state has quite a few laws about renting property.   When we purchased our first home in 2001 and were still living in NY, we hired an on-island agent who would collect and file our taxes for us.  When we moved here permanently in 2006 and purchased a vacation rental condo in Mauna Lani, we collected and filed both GET and TAT quarterly.


From an older article -
*GET & TAT TAX OBLIGATION ON RENTAL INCOME IN HAWAII*

1.) On all gross rents received you have to pay 4.5% General Excise Tax (GET). This is on the gross rent received, not on the rent after expenses, minus expenses. It’s on the gross rent received, 4.5% General Excise Tax.

2.) If you rent your property on a shorter term basis and shorter term basis in this case is defined as 180 days or less per tenant, then you’re obligated to pay an _additional_ 10.25% (effective 1.1.2018, previously was 9.25%) Transient Accommodation Tax (TAT)

Those taxes are due either quarterly or monthly depending on how much rental income is generated. There’s a formula for that. Normally they are due on the 20th of the following month after the collection period. So 20 days to send in the taxes.

If these taxes are not received by the 20th, there are hefty penalties and there are late fees and interest that accrues on it. So it’s important to be timely on those payments and it’s important to be accurate on the calculation of those payments. Let me explain.

There is no statue of limitation with general Excise Tax or Transient Accommodation Tax. It means if you ever get audited, the state may require you to open your books going back 3, 5, 7, 10 years, 15 years, whatever it is. So make sure you are accurate with the taxes that are due.

The state has different mechanisms to check also on rental income. For example, did you know that as a renter in the state of Hawaii, you get a $50 tax break, if the renter provides the contact info for the landlord. So if you don’t report it, your tenant might be reporting to the State of Hawaii that he’s paying rent to you, so make sure you pay the appropriate taxes.

There are other requirements we need to talk about. An out of state landlord is required to have a local property manager, a local contact, there always needs to be somebody here in the state available that can assist the tenant in case of an emergency.

There are additional reporting requirements that even involve associations. If you rent out your condo in a high rise condominium building, the association is required to report you as a landlord if the association is aware of it. In fact, nowadays the association could be fined if they don’t report. This is all an effort by the State, it’s all about tax revenue for the State that the State might have been missing.


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## CalGalTraveler (Jul 11, 2021)

Spent last 2 weeks in HI. BI relatively relaxed and friendly. Maui was insane. Tensions on all sides. A food truck driver near OGG yelled at her employee and me because I requested my poke order to be placed in a plastic tub so it wouldn't spill on the airplane...the employee suggested this approach. So when it came out in cardboard and I asked for the container, the lady started to yell at the employee and said she should have charged me an extra $1 because the employee wasted a cardboard container (I would have gladly paid if they asked.) The lady literally threw the food containers at us and stormed away.


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## lynne (Jul 11, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Spent last 2 weeks in HI. BI relatively relaxed and friendly. Maui was insane. Tensions on both sides. A food truck driver near OGG yelled at her employee and me because I requested my poke order to be placed in a plastic tub so it wouldn't spill on the airplane...the employee suggested this approach. So when it came out in cardboard and I asked for the container, the lady started to yell at the employee and said she should have charged me an extra $1 because they wasted a cardboard container (I would have gladly paid if they asked.) The lady literally threw the food containers at us and stormed away.


USA Today article about Maui 








						'We get cussed at every day': Maui tourist surge raises tensions, renews calls for visitor limits, new fees — USA TODAY
					

The number of tourists in Maui is approaching pre-pandemic levels this summer, creating challenges for residents and visitors.




					apple.news


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## Luanne (Jul 11, 2021)

lynne said:


> USA Today article about Maui
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Behind a paywall


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## lynne (Jul 11, 2021)

Luanne said:


> Behind a paywall


This should work:









						'We get cussed at every day': Maui tourist surge raises tensions, renews calls for visitor limits, new fees
					

The number of tourists in Maui is approaching pre-pandemic levels this summer, creating challenges for residents and visitors.




					news.yahoo.com


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## Tamaradarann (Jul 11, 2021)

lynne said:


> The state has quite a few laws about renting property.   When we purchased our first home in 2001 and were still living in NY, we hired an on-island agent who would collect and file our taxes for us.  When we moved here permanently in 2006 and purchased a vacation rental condo in Mauna Lani, we collected and filed both GET and TAT quarterly.
> 
> 
> From an older article -
> ...



I wished I had scene the artical when I started to rent our Condo.  I knew and have taken care everything that you have stated here, except the GET the first year, for which I had to pay a late payment of about $60 since I was only a few months late.


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## Luanne (Jul 11, 2021)

lynne said:


> This should work:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks.  I'm almost sorry I could read it.  It sounds very sad.  We love Maui and have been vacationing there (in our timeshare) since 1986.  I would hate to think that we're not wanted there any longer.


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## boraxo (Jul 11, 2021)

Hawaii completely mismanaged tourism during the pandemic. But that was almost 100% the fault of the Governor and island Mayors and 0% due to the tourism bureau. 

There is a constant tension between the native Hawaiians, retirees and tourists. Some depend on tourism for survival and others just wish they would go away.

But really this will have no effect whatsoever on timeshare owners. If anything, it might make your timeshare more valuable if local authorities make it more difficult to rent airbnb, or increase taxes, etc.


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## lynne (Jul 11, 2021)

Tamaradarann said:


> I wished I had scene the artical when I started to rent our Condo.  I knew and have taken care everything that you have stated here, except the GET the first year, for which I had to pay a late payment of about $60 since I was only a few months late.


Glad to hear that the fine was not too bad.  I know in Hawaii County, we can always call the property tax office and get advice from a live person who is always willing to help.   Hopefully the other islands are just as welcoming to questions and advice.


----------

