# Is this current? Borrowing points from next year.



## GrayFal (Jul 16, 2014)

Now with the decrease in points required to deposit a studio in II, i do not want my 17.5K leftover points to go to waste.
Unlike RCI, II requires you to deposit the full amount of points required for a reservation -such as a 35K studio. I can not deposit the 17.5k by themselves.

I referred to the Wyndham Primer on this site and found the following information

"Borrowing Points
The Wyndham point system allows you to borrow points from your next Use Year if you are booking an internal reservation during the Express Reservation period and either have no current year points remaining or do not have enough current year points to get the vacation you desire.   If you cancel a reservation that involves borrowed points, the points will not be returned to the Use Year they were borrowed from. They will be returned to the same Use Year as the reservation and will be identifiable as “cancelled reservation points” within your account.  

Example: If you make a reservation for a vacation in 2010 using borrowed points from your 2011 Use Year and later cancel the reservation, the points you borrowed from the 2011 Use Year will return to your 2010 account as “cancelled reservation points” and will remain in your 2010 Use Year account for your use through the remainder of the 2010 Use Year. 

TIP:  If at the end of your Use Year, you find that you have a few thousand points left; but not enough to make a deposit with your exchange company there is a solution. You can borrow enough points to make an internal reservation for the current Use Year; cancel the internal reservation so that the borrowed points are returned to the current Use Year as cancelled points; and then take the cancelled points and the points that were left over at the end of your use year to make a deposit with your exchange company. A Wyndham VC can help you or you can do the transactions on-line. To avoid excessive Reservation Transactions get it done the same day.
Example:  Your Use Year runs from Jan 1 to Dec 31. In December you find that you have used all but 10,000 of your allotted points for the current Use Year; but you do not want the points to expire. You can go to the Wyndham reservation website and if there is a Studio unit available for a three night stay, say at Wyndham Mountain Vista, for Christmas week for 18,000 points you can borrow the 18,000 points from the next Use Year allotment to go with the 10,000 points that you do not want to lose in the current Use Year. Borrow the points, make an internal reservation, cancel the reservation, and deposit 28,000 points with your assigned exchange company."

So is this a typo?  Is the Mountain Vista reservation actually 28,000 making it necessary to borrow 18,000 to go with the 10,000 to get the 28K. Or is it actually allowing you to use ONLY borrowed points for the 18K Resie, cancel and then combine with the current 10K for the deposit ?

My goal is to use my 17.5K current points (expire 9/30/14) and borrow 52.5K from my 10/1/14 use year to make two 35K Studio deposits in II. 

TIA


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## bnoble (Jul 16, 2014)

I believe you must use your current UY points before you can borrow any from the next UY.  The easiest way to get where you want to go is to book something in the current UY (and within the Express Window, so within the next three months) for 70K total, using borrowed points for the balance you don't have in the current UY.  Cancel it, and then deposit the two studios.


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## GrayFal (Jul 16, 2014)

bnoble said:


> I believe you must use your current UY points before you can borrow any from the next UY.  The easiest way to get where you want to go is to book something in the current UY (and within the Express Window, so within the next three months) for 70K total, using borrowed points for the balance you don't have in the current UY.  Cancel it, and then deposit the two studios.



Thank you….and I could/should do this all online in the same day, correct?
The last time I made a resie was August 2013 but I believe my reservation credits run along with UY, not calendar year and I have none left for this UY.


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## ronparise (Jul 16, 2014)

To avoid the "left over" points problem in future years I would get familiar with the points credit pool.  You could start with next years points.

Instead of borrowing points deposit all your 2015 points to the pool. Since you cant deposit pooled points to II you will have to do a "two step"  1) make a reservation for the right number of points this year. You will use your 2014 points and the rest will come from the pool. 2) cancel that reservation and depost to II. And yes you can do it all the same day with one $39 pool charge and one transaction credit (or $30)

You might say spending the $39 pool charge is a waste of money. I say its money well spent to avoid the left over points issue next year.


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## hjtug (Jul 16, 2014)

GrayFal said:


> My goal is to use my 17.5K current points (expire 9/30/14) and borrow 52.5K from my 10/1/14 use year to make two 35K Studio deposits in II.



At the beginning of the month I did exactly what you would like to do except that I made four 35K deposits.  Some reps will know exactly what you want to do, others will need to be walked through step by step.  You should do it on the phone to make sure you use only one transaction credit or pay for only one.  First I would see if you can find a 70k reservation to make within the express window that you can suggest to the rep.  The reps might be able to search more easily than you, but they might come up with a reservation that takes somewhat more points than you want to borrow.  And, perhaps if you were trying to borrow more points, they might come up with multiple reservations to combine to meet your needs.  Pay attention to housekeeping credits.  Do you have enough to make the two 35K deposits?  If you can, avoid borrowing any from next year but, if you need them, see if you can borrow them from next year vs. buying them.  One year I successfully got the points I needed into the current year but didn't have enough housekeeping credits.  As a result, one or more deposits failed and I had to purchase some housekeeping credits the next day and pay for another transaction.


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## GrayFal (Jul 16, 2014)

ronparise said:


> To avoid the "left over" points problem in future years I would get familiar with the points credit pool.  You could start with next years points.
> 
> Instead of borrowing points deposit all your 2015 points to the pool. Since you cant deposit pooled points to II you will have to do a "two step"  1) make a reservation for the right number of points this year. You will use your 2014 points and the rest will come from the pool. 2) cancel that reservation and depost to II. And yes you can do it all the same day with one $39 pool charge and ine transaction credit (or $30)
> 
> You might say spending the $39 pool charge is a waste of money. I say its money well spent to avoid the left over points issue next year.


Thank you Ron, when I put my points in the credit pool, do the HK credits also go there?

Because of the many fees Wyndham implemented when I had 500K points, I have now downsized to one 203K contract so I get two transaction credits.

I am now a platinum owner with Bluegreen mainly because they do not nickel and dime their owners. Works for me because they have resorts (La Cabana, Solara Surfside) where I and my family want to go and I can access many others for low resie fees. But I always borrow my next years points by prepaying my maint fees.

I think starting to pay the $39 (no transaction fee, correct?) each year will enhance my ownership.

Thanks for the tip.


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## GrayFal (Jul 16, 2014)

hjtug said:


> At the beginning of the month I did exactly what you would like to do except that I made four 35K deposits.  Some reps will know exactly what you want to do, others will need to be walked through step by step.  You should do it on the phone to make sure you use only one transaction credit or pay for only one.  First I would see if you can find a 70k reservation to make within the express window that you can suggest to the rep.  The reps might be able to search more easily than you, but they might come up with a reservation that takes somewhat more points than you want to borrow.  And, perhaps if you were trying to borrow more points, they might come up with multiple reservations to combine to meet your needs.  Pay attention to housekeeping credits.  Do you have enough to make the two 35K deposits?  If you can, avoid borrowing any from next year but, if you need them, see if you can borrow them from next year vs. buying them.  One year I successfully got the points I needed into the current year but didn't have enough housekeeping credits.  As a result, one or more deposits failed and I had to purchase some housekeeping credits the next day and pay for another transaction.


Thank you, great advice….I am planning on two but might do 3 deposits….need to play around with my point needs for the next two years.


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## scootr5 (Jul 16, 2014)

GrayFal said:


> Thank you Ron, when I put my points in the credit pool, do the HK credits also go there?



Yes, they do.  I love the pool - no need to worry about a few thousand left over points.


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## GrayFal (Jul 16, 2014)

scootr5 said:


> Yes, they do.  I love the pool - no need to worry about a few thousand left over points.


Thanks Scott, forgot you are also a WYN owner…we have much in common :ignore:


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## scootr5 (Jul 16, 2014)

GrayFal said:


> Thanks Scott, forgot you are also a WYN owner…we have much in common :ignore:





The HK credits carrying over are handy for taking a long vacation one year, and then a couple of long weekends the next year. You don't lose them at the end of the UY.


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## bnoble (Jul 17, 2014)

> You should do it on the phone to make sure you use only one transaction credit or pay for only one.


The online system is smart enough to handle this correctly.

Pat: I too am a fan of the pool, but you don't need to pool today to accomplish what you need---express borrowing will work.  It might be advantageous to pool any UY15 points when you get closer to the end of UY14.


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## scootr5 (Jul 17, 2014)

The advantage to pooling first is that all of the HK credits come over too. If you have 100,000 points but 150 HK credits, when you pool them only 100 of the HK credits will go into the pool since they move 1 per 1,000 points.


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## hjtug (Jul 17, 2014)

bnoble said:


> It might be advantageous to pool any UY15 points when you get closer to the end of UY14.



Unless you want to use some of them for trading deposits in UY15.


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## scootr5 (Jul 17, 2014)

hjtug said:


> Unless you want to use some of them for trading deposits in UY15.



You can still do that; it just requires the extra step of making and cancelling a reservation to turn them into cancelled points, which can then be deposited to RCI/II.


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## bnoble (Jul 17, 2014)

Scott has it exactly right---and this is something I do often.  In fact, I just confirmed an exchange a few weeks ago using pool credits that I first converted to cancel points.


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## GrayFal (Jul 17, 2014)

scootr5 said:


> The advantage to pooling first is that all of the HK credits come over too. If you have 100,000 points but 150 HK credits, when you pool them only 100 of the HK credits will go into the pool since they move 1 per 1,000 points.





scootr5 said:


> You can still do that; it just requires the extra step of making and cancelling a reservation to turn them into cancelled points, which can then be deposited to RCI/II.





bnoble said:


> Scott has it exactly right---and this is something I do often.  In fact, I just confirmed an exchange a few weeks ago using pool credits that I first converted to cancel points.



My head is spinning!
I have 17.5K points and 49 HK credits - should I pool first (taking the 49K with it) then do the 70/105K resie then cancel and do the II deposit???


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## ronparise (Jul 17, 2014)

GrayFal said:


> Thank you Ron, when I put my points in the credit pool, do the HK credits also go there?
> 
> Because of the many fees Wyndham implemented when I had 500K points, I have now downsized to one 203K contract so I get two transaction credits.
> 
> ...



yes hk go with the deposit.  
and yes $39 no additional transaction fee 

I understand about the Wyndham fees,  but there is some consolation knowing that with Wyndham unlike what you say about BlueGreen you can use next years points and the year after that without prepaying mf.  In January Ill be putting all my 2017 points into the pool and Ill be able to use them right away


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## bnoble (Jul 17, 2014)

There are two things to remember about the many onerous Wyndham fees.

1: Many of them are easy to avoid with a small amount of planning.
2: In the rare instances you pay one, they add a lot of value to your ownership.

So, it is worth thinking about them, but it is not worth worrying about them. if that makes sense.


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## scootr5 (Jul 17, 2014)

GrayFal said:


> My head is spinning!
> 
> I have 17.5K points and 49 HK credits - should I pool first (taking the 49K with it) then do the 70/105K resie then cancel and do the II deposit???




If you have 17.5K points 49 HK credits, if you pool 17 HK credits will move to the pool. There's no way to move them all.


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## Free2Roam (Jul 17, 2014)

GrayFal said:


> My head is spinning!
> I have 17.5K points and 49 HK credits - should I pool first (taking the 49K with it) then do the 70/105K resie then cancel and do the II deposit???


You won't be able to pool the points that expire 9/30/14. It's too late. You have to pool before the use year begins. 

You can either pay the fee to pool points that start 10/1/2014, make a reservation in the current use year, then cancel and deposit to II; or just make a reservation in the current use year using the current year points and borrowing enough from your next use year (no fee), cancel that reservation, then deposit to II.

Also, my understanding is that reservation transactions are for the calendar year, not use year. So if you haven't used one since August 2013 you should have both left. 

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## GrayFal (Jul 18, 2014)

*Hmmmmmmm, I think I've got it!*

So there really is no downside to pooling points, in fact, it would allow me to use the points NOW if I wanted to, rather like borrowing ahead in Bluegreen.

Ron mentioned in January 2015 he will pool his 2017 points, I am assuming he has already pooled his 2016 this past January 2014.

Question. Can I pool my 10/1/15 and my 10/1/16 points NOW with one $39 fee or do I have to pay two fees?

And just to clarify, if I have two years worth of points in the pool (406K) would I then be able to make a 300K reservation for August 2015? Or a 325k reservation for January 2016?

I guess my real question is, how long before pool points expire?


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## GrayFal (Jul 18, 2014)

scootr5 said:


> You can still do that; it just requires the extra step of making and cancelling a reservation to turn them into cancelled points, which can then be deposited to RCI/II.





bnoble said:


> Scott has it exactly right---and this is something I do often.  In fact, I just confirmed an exchange a few weeks ago using pool credits that I first converted to cancel points.



Okay, I think I've got this. Pool points can not be deposited for exchange but the work around is to make a reservation, cancel it and then the canceled points can be deposited to II/RCI.

It is really embarrassing that I have been an owner for so long and did not know the benefits of the Pool 

Going back to reading that Primer to have a better understanding of the pool, dates, UY, etc.


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## scootr5 (Jul 18, 2014)

GrayFal said:


> So there really is no downside to pooling points, in fact, it would allow me to use the points NOW if I wanted to, rather like borrowing ahead in Bluegreen.
> 
> Ron mentioned in January 2015 he will pool his 2017 points, I am assuming he has already pooled his 2016 this past January 2014.
> 
> ...



It's one $39 fee per UY, for as many contracts as you want to pool. They expire three years from the date you place them in the pool. I wait as long as I can to pool mine, to extend their life (unless I need them for a specific reservation). If you pool your 10/1/15 points now they expire 7/18/2017. If you pool them on 9/20/15 just before your UY starts you get until 2018 to use them.

Yes, you can then use them to make a reservation up to the total amount of points you have in the pool, such as the 300K or 325K reservations.


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## uscav8r (Jul 18, 2014)

GrayFal said:


> So there really is no downside to pooling points, in fact, it would allow me to use the points NOW if I wanted to, rather like borrowing ahead in Bluegreen.


There is ONE downside that I don't think has been mentioned. Pooled credits lose ARP status, so you can only make reservations within 10 months, even at your home resort(s). This SHOULD be moot if you are managing you points efficiently (i.e. waiting as long as possible to pool... Ron pools as early as possible, but he rents almost everything he has so his is a different purpose than the rest of us). If you REALLY needed ARP, in most cases you should be booking that resort at 13 months anyway, which gives you one month to credit pool your remaining points for that next UY.



scootr5 said:


> It's one $39 fee per UY, for as many contracts as you want to pool.
> 
> They expire three years from the date you place them in the pool. I wait as long as I can to pool mine, to extend their life (unless I need them for a specific reservation). If you pool your 10/1/15 points now they expire 7/18/2017. If you pool them on 9/20/15 just before your UY starts you get until 2018 to use them.



Grayfal, note that scootr5 did not say to wait to the last day to pool the next UY. The credit pool will sometimes get "full" across all of Wyndham for a given use year, which can prevent you from making a deposit. This usually does not last more than a couple days, so I'd make my first credit pool attempt 10-14 days prior to the next UY start if trying to maximize lifespan extension, and then try every few days after that if unsuccessful.


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## ronparise (Jul 18, 2014)

uscav8r said:


> There is ONE downside that I don't think has been mentioned. Pooled credits lose ARP status, so you can only make reservations within 10 months, even at your home resort(s). This SHOULD be moot if you are managing you points efficiently (i.e. waiting as long as possible to pool... Ron pools as early as possible, but he rents almost everything he has so his is a different purpose than the rest of us). If you REALLY needed ARP, in most cases you should be booking that resort at 13 months anyway, which gives you one month to credit pool your remaining points for that next UY.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it that the pool gets full? or that the pool can get empty?

I dont think there is ever a time when you cant deposit to the pool, rather I think  it is possible that the pool is empty for a particular time.in which case you cant make a reservation.

Either way it hasnt been a problem for me. 

If you read the book on the credit pool the emphasis is on how you can deposit to the pool to extend the life of credits.They say something like,"if you know you wont be using your points next year, use the pool to save them for future years"   So if this is all you know about the pool,  it would make sense to wait until the last minute to make a deposit, thereby extending the life an additional 2 years.    and you would be right to question my approach which is to deposit as early as possible. When I deposit my 2017 points in Jan 2015, I dont extend their life at all.....why does that make sense to me?

What the book doesnt emphasize Is that when you deposit points to the pool they are available for use right now... useful for the op because he doesnt have enough current year points to make a reservation.  For me I'm making reservations today, renting them, and banking the money, before I have to make maintenance fee payments From a cash flow perspective its great stuff.  The problem will come when I want to sell one of my contracts that has been stripped of points....but I will deal with that later (or my heirs will)


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## uscav8r (Jul 18, 2014)

ronparise said:


> Is it that the pool gets full? or that the pool can get empty?
> 
> I dont think there is ever a time when you cant deposit to the pool, rather I think  it is possible that the pool is empty for a particular time.in which case you cant make a reservation.
> 
> ...



Tow-may-tow, tow-mah-tow... Heh... 

Through past discussions on this topic, I've actually learned to do both (mostly from you, Ron!). Accelerate future years to make a big-point reservation (waiting until just before the Standard Reservation window opens of course), or waiting until just prior to the next UY if I don't need to use them early. 

This can be boiled down to, "Don't pool until you have to, but do it it before the next use year."

For trivia's sake, this past FEB I pooled all my 2016 points (now expire 2/2017) so I could book a couple of rooms during Christmas 2014, but I left alone all my 2015 points. Why? I need most of those for ARP. I figure I'll be making another deposit in DEC for my planned-to-be-unused 2015 points, which will have a longer expiration (12/2017) than my 2016 points! How's that for convoluted?




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## kev5982 (Jul 18, 2014)

I have even year points, so I have 168,000 to use this year that I just received and I have 2016 points showing on my points status page.

The 2014 points can't be pooled because I'm already in the use year.

So I can use them this year or deposit into RCI or maybe Wyndham will let me pool them since I received them in the middle of the use year.


Can I pool 2016 points now and use them in 2014, and 2015?
I wasn't sure since I have an even use year.

Thanks,

Kevin


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## uscav8r (Jul 18, 2014)

kev5982 said:


> I have even year points, so I have 168,000 to use this year that I just received and I have 2016 points showing on my points status page.
> 
> The 2014 points can't be pooled because I'm already in the use year.
> 
> ...



It sounds like you either have a JUL use year, or you just bought this contract. If the former, Wyndham will definitely not let you pool. If the latter, it can't hurt to ask, but I doubt they will let you do it. If you can't pool, you have those other options you mentioned available to you.

Yes, you can pool your 2016 points so they will be available to you now and through 2015 (EOY doesn't matter). You will only see the current year and up to 2 years out, but you could wait until 12/2015 (if you have a JAN use year) to pool those 2016 points. 


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## kev5982 (Jul 18, 2014)

Thanks Chris,

I just bought the points now and the use year starts in Jan.

Thanks,

Kevin


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## bnoble (Jul 18, 2014)

> Ron mentioned in January 2015 he will pool his 2017 points


Ron does this in part because (a) he is in a growth mode adding points and (b) he has enough rental business to consume more points than he currently owns.  In that situation, he is able to get revenue from points he has not yet "paid for" (you don't have to pay MFs in advance to pool) but won't be points-poor in the future due to newly-acquired contracts.

This works as long as he is in growth mode. I suspect he has thought about what the leveling strategy might be, but I don't think he has shared it with us.



> The credit pool will sometimes get "full" across all of Wyndham for a given use year, which can prevent you from making a deposit.


I think it has been years since we've seen the pool run dry---since the VIP pooling windows were extended.  While it is theoretically possible, I don't worry about it that much.


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## GrayFal (Jul 20, 2014)

bnoble said:


> There are two things to remember about the many onerous Wyndham fees.
> 
> 1: Many of them are easy to avoid with a small amount of planning.
> 2: In the rare instances you pay one, they add a lot of value to your ownership.
> ...


Yes it makes sense and the $39 extra per year is certainly worth it.

Yesterday I made a 106K Resie, I borrowed points and housekeeping from next year without a fee.

I then canceled the Resie and made 2 35K deposits in II. I had 77 HK. Credits and used 56 for these two deposits.

When I went to do the third deposit, the system promoted me to buy HK credits for $15.75. It did not give me an option to borrow them from next year.

I called WYN to see if I could borrow HK from next year. I was told I could not. I then requested to pool the rest of my 10/14 points (114K) The agent tried to grill me about my point usage and tried to discourage me from pooling as I admitted I used exchange company as well as direct WYN Resie and I could not use pool points for exchange company (which is true). I did not want to discuss the work around so just told her I REALLY wanted to pool my points.

After pool transaction was completed, she offered to assist me with the last II deposit but I declined as I told her I preferred to take screen shots for all my transactions. I then went back online and made the final 35K II deposit, paying the HK fee.

As stated earlier, transaction credits are by calendar year so I still have one left for the year.
I will pool my 2015 points later in the year and probably make a few short reservations. 

Thanks again for everyones help, learning about the pool has greatly enhanced my WYN. Ownership. 

Edit. One of the posters mentioned ARP, this does not affect me as my contract is at WYN Kingsgate, a place that is easy to reserve.


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