# I believe Marriott will aggressively acquire weeks into Points Trust



## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2010)

The more I think about this Marriott point system, the more I conclude that the early actions of Marriott with respect to resale weeks owners is simply to get the program started.  What I mean by that is on day one, there is no inventory available outside of what is in the current trust, but Marriott will be selling as if it has availability everywhere.  At first, I thought they created a clever way to claw back weeks from II and to trick owners into giving control of weeks to Marriott by signing up.  However, after thinking about it some more, I don't think those actions alone are going to work to make the Marriott Vacation Club Points system successful over time.

Points systems are successful when the inventory is predictable and owners can easily learn when to try to get reservations they want for peak season.  So, those points systems where there is lots of inventory that gets deposited in advance provides that attribute.  Disney has it because all resort units are in the system.  Same with WorldMark.  Bluegreen has it for resorts that started off completely as points resorts.  So will Marriott with those resorts they initially put into the system.

So, to get critical mass of inventory at any current resorts outside of the Trust, they will have to acquire inventory into the Trust or they will never have critical mass.  An exchange relationship just doesn't do it.

So, given that, I will predict that Marriott will indeed NOT allow new exchange relationships to enroll, rather they will acquire units via ROFR and via equity trade ins into the program.  In this way, they can acquire new inventory at the same time they are moving current points inventory.

The points program will only be as strong as the inventory in the Trust.   This will occur only when the current inventory levels at Marriott are worked down sufficiently.  But, when that happens, I expect Marriott to be buying.  But, they will be buying weeks, not points.

Using this approach, they will back into becoming a point system at all of the current Marriott resorts.  If this indeed does happen, then it will be good to own those resale weeks that Marriott needs.  And, it means that the resale market for points will be weak for a long time.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2010)

In addition to the skim debacle that Marriott created with this program introduction, Marriott made a huge mistake with the maintenance fee program.

First, they should have subsidized it down to around $.25/point for the period of 5 years.  After the 5 years, they would add several percentage points to the MF until it came out in balance.  

Second, they should have included a base rate plus a low point value.  Example.  Instead of $.40/point, they should have done something like $500 + $.30/point.  So, 5000 points would both have $2000 MF.  But, 10000 points would have $3500 instead of $4000.  An incentive for having more points than less.

If they did this, they could create a huge incentive for owners to convert into the system via equity trade ins with straight economics.  And, there would be an incentive to add points later.

Instead, they introduce skim and immediately put their sales teams on the defensive justifying point skim.  It's got to be one of the all time biggest mistakes in point program history.

If Marriott did the above, the smart Tuggers on this board would be all over the trick they are using and panning them for such a ruse.  But, owners would be converting in masses.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2010)

For completeness, I think that Marriott should also create a bonus time / open season program for last minute availability 30-45 days prior to check in.
Make it either discounted points or great cash rate.  Either one is fine.

It will make it easier to sell as some owners will chase that feature.  They can actually make it available only to points trust owners and exclude exchange enrollees.


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## jin (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> The more I think about this Marriott point system, the more I conclude that the early actions of Marriott with respect to resale weeks owners is simply to get the program started.  What I mean by that is on day one, there is no inventory available outside of what is in the current trust, but Marriott will be selling as if it has availability everywhere.  At first, I thought they created a clever way to claw back weeks from II and to trick owners into giving control of weeks to Marriott by signing up.  However, after thinking about it some more, I don't think those actions alone are going to work to make the Marriott Vacation Club Points system successful over time.
> 
> Points systems are successful when the inventory is predictable and owners can easily learn when to try to get reservations they want for peak season.  So, those points systems where there is lots of inventory that gets deposited in advance provides that attribute.  Disney has it because all resort units are in the system.  Same with WorldMark.  Bluegreen has it for resorts that started off completely as points resorts.  So will Marriott with those resorts they initially put into the system.
> 
> ...



I agree with this, and also feel since they may be exercising ROFR, in addition to a slowly diminishing number of weeks for sale (since Marriott no longer sells weeks, and will be converting any obtained weeks into the trust) that resale values for weeks will actually increase, despite the fact they may or may not ever be eligible for the points program.  If I were looking to get into Marriott resorts, I would never consider buying into the points program, but would definitely consider buying a resale Marriott week for use or exchange purposes....  Pete


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## GregT (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> For completeness, I think that Marriott should also create a bonus time / open season program for last minute availability 30-45 days prior to check in.
> Make it either discounted points or great cash rate.  Either one is fine.
> 
> It will make it easier to sell as some owners will chase that feature.  They can actually make it available only to points trust owners and exclude exchange enrollees.



BocaBum,

In my conversation with the guy in customer advocacy at Marriott, he told me that a Bonus Time/Open Season concept was something they definitely intended to introduce, but he didn't know the timeline  (by that time, our skim-discount will be permanent -- sorry for mini-rant).

I also think that they begin to ROFR those desirable Platinum weeks that they need for inventory but I don't expect everything to be ROFR'd.  

Best to all,

Greg


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2010)

GregT said:


> BocaBum,
> 
> In my conversation with the guy in customer advocacy at Marriott, he told me that a Bonus Time/Open Season concept was something they definitely intended to introduce, but he didn't know the timeline  (by that time, our skim-discount will be permanent -- sorry for mini-rant).
> 
> ...



Greg,

Let me turn it around on you.  If Marriott did not have skim and the average week would earn the average number of points required to book a week in their season, would that change your opinion of the program?

I ask only because I believe that Marriott could have achieved the exact same result without you knowing it.  I am testing my thesis that point skim was a complete and utter brain fart concept.


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## GregT (Jul 5, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Greg,
> 
> Let me turn it around on you.  If Marriott did not have skim and the average week would earn the average number of points required to book a week in their season, would that change your opinion of the program?
> 
> I ask only because I believe that Marriott could have achieved the exact same result without you knowing it.  I am testing my thesis that point skim was a complete and utter brain fart concept.




BocaBum,

If Marriott did not have the skim, I would be a big supporter of the program.  I would rather have seen a higher up-front and annual fee (and housekeeping fees) that truly reflected the cost and profitability of the system.  We all expected the differing property values between sites, and I think people knew that the points system would make it difficult to trade-up, but would bring terrific flexibility.

I just struggle with skimming as it feels so underhanded and sneaky and not at all what I expected from Marriott.

I think it is a PR disaster and will have a small small number of people who question their allegiance to the brand (I have), but it will be extremely lucrative to Marriott.  Frustrating stuff.

All the best,

Greg


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2010)

GregT said:


> BocaBum,
> 
> If Marriott did not have the skim, I would be a big supporter of the program.  I would rather have seen a higher up-front and annual fee (and housekeeping fees) that truly reflected the cost of profitability of the system.  We all expected the differing property values between sites, and I think people knew that the points system would make it difficult to trade-up, but would bring terrific flexibility.
> 
> ...



That's what I thought.  I think it was ill advised.  We shall see how well it sells over time.  I wouldn't be surprised if Marriott changes it when they make their very first point adjustments.

If I were Starwood, Hilton, Four Seasons, Wyndham, Hyatt or any other hotel brand point system, this point skim would be a lead competitive selling point against Marriott's points program.  Very easy to verify, not really required.


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## m61376 (Jul 5, 2010)

GregT said:


> BocaBum,
> 
> If Marriott did not have the skim, I would be a big supporter of the program.  I would rather have seen a higher up-front and annual fee (and housekeeping fees) that truly reflected the cost and profitability of the system.  We all expected the differing property values between sites, and I think people knew that the points system would make it difficult to trade-up, but would bring terrific flexibility.
> 
> ...



I agree.

The other thing that surprised me was the way points were allocated. I expected them to be based on some real world valuation, and I still maintain that what Marriott itself charges to rent days/weeks reflects value- since market price is based on supply and demand. I expected that if Marriott charged as much as double the rental at one property than another, it would award at least as many points to the property that commands the higher rental rates. I never expected lower points to be awarded to properties that had double an close to double the rental rates as properties receiving higher point allocations. I assume others may agree with the notion that timeshare users are different people than renters so a different set of valuations apply to them, but to me people are, well, people, and whether a timeshare user or a timeshare or hotel renter, their cost assessment and the airfare/drive-ability issues factor in the same; I don't buy into the concept that things can be more valuable to people who rent but worth less to timeshare owners.

So, while I agree that the skimming is the more "in your face" and more universally a problem, I also think the relative point allocation between different resorts leaves something to be desired wrt equity in some cases. I am not referring to the loss of up-trades- if point allocations were more equitable, and if trading value was truly equivalent, then it would be an overall fair and attractive system. While those used to uptrades don't agree, I think IF the system generated equitable trades overall it would be beneficial. However for many (most) owners the system is designed to provide flexibility but with a cost in value (due to the skimming) and, for owners of certain properties, the point allocations ensure significant downtrades (such as when a week that rents for 6k at Marriott.com can't reserve a week that rents for 3K; for me, that represents a significant disparity in valuations.


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## cp73 (Jul 5, 2010)

I disagree and dont think you will see Marriott exercising ROFR for a long long time...First of all they dont have anyone in this program so they dont need any units....How much inventory does Marriott currently own...we dont know...I would guess they have units at almost all the resorts...What about all the units in default right now...thats part of their inventory. 

It took over 20-30 years to get 400,000 timeshares sold in the old program...I bet they dont attract 50,000 persons in this next year into this new points program.

Lets dont forget about the economy...most people can't afford to purchase a timeshare in these economic times...

How many owners off of tug even know about this new program???  None of my 6 friends than own Marriotts know anything about it...

I think many of you on this board think the sky is falling. Its going to be a long long time before we know if Marriott is successful with it. I hope they are. Remember they only did this to attract new sales because the old method just wasn't working...The best thing they have going for themselves in this new program is they can lower the entry point for new buyers.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 5, 2010)

cp73 said:


> I disagree and dont think you will see Marriott exercising ROFR for a long long time...First of all they dont have anyone in this program so they dont need any units....How much inventory does Marriott currently own...we dont know...I would guess they have units at almost all the resorts...What about all the units in default right now...thats part of their inventory.
> 
> It took over 20-30 years to get 400,000 timeshares sold in the old program...I bet they dont attract 50,000 persons in this next year into this new points program.
> 
> ...



I agree that Marriott won't do anything until it works down its current inventory.  Not sure how much that is.

In the first quarter of this year, Marriott sold $172M worth of timeshares.  At $10000/1000 points, they would have to sell 17,200 units of 1000 points to equal that revenue.  That would also be 191 units per day.  That's  heckuva lot of points to sell.  It will be interesting to see if they can do it.

If they do achieve that sales volume, they will need to acquire inventory from somewhere.  Maybe foreclosures will be enough, maybe not.  

If they do start exercising again, you will know why.


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## dougp26364 (Jul 5, 2010)

I'm not 100% convinced that Marriott will have a need to re-aquire old weeks to make this program go. It appears they have a sweetheart deal with Interval to aquire the weeks they want via exchange using current inventory Marriott owns. So long as there is adaquate inventory to give in exchange and, so long as there are adaquate availability through Interval of weeks depsosited by owners not utilizing the points side, Marriott should be able to easily and cheaply aquire the weeks necessary to supply the trust program.

It's going to take a long time to have enough trust owners who are strictly points for inventory to become a problem IMHO. I anticpate that a good number of legacy owners who join will join for the one fee for all services vs the ala carte pricing. As such I would be those owners continue to utlilze the weeks based exchange sytem rather than convert their ownership to points, thus avoiding the skim. 

Marriott's arrangement to aquired deposited weeks in exchange for what they own is brilliant for Marriott IMO. No cash outlay to repurchase weeks via ROFR. No expensse to employee people to handle ROFR transactions and, no requirement to pay MF's to the HOA for those weeks on the resale market. It seems to me there is little need for Marriott to agressively hit the resale market to supply the destination club based on the agreement they have in place with Interval so long as they have enough inventory to make the necessary exchanges. 

What we might start seeing is better availability of weeks for Interval members at some of the newer resorts. As Marriott aquires weeks for destination club members at the older resorts, they'll need to give up something to Interval to complete the exchange. Marriott's largest pool for exchange units should be the newest resorts. Perhaps we'll see a flurry of Marco Island, Ocean Watch or the new resorts in Orlando and Kauai showing up with Interval.


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## Cindala (Jul 5, 2010)

When I call II, I get the Marriott desk as a Marriott owner. Now this seems to me to be a conflict of interest if I am given the Marriott desk as I am not joining the points program.

If II could have a sweetheart deal with Marriott, who is looking out for my best interests as a deeded weeks owner?


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## dougp26364 (Jul 5, 2010)

Cindala said:


> When I call II, I get the Marriott desk as a Marriott owner. Now this seems to me to be a conflict of interest if I am given the Marriott desk as I am not joining the points program.
> 
> If II could have a sweetheart deal with Marriott, who is looking out for my best interests as a deeded weeks owner?




Marriott, for as long as I've been an owner, has had the Marriott desk. These are I.I. employee's trained especially to handle Marriott owners exchange request. Even my calls for non-Marriott weeks are direct to the Marriott desk just because I'm a Marriott owner. 

I would anticipate that Marriott isn't employing it's own personel to handle exchanges. My bet would be that Marriott is once again contracting the work out to Interval. I would anticipate that these are the same empoyee's that also staff the "Marriott" desk. 

Who's looking out for you as an individual owner? You are and, hopefully Marriott is an honest company that doesn't shaft it's existing owners. Right now there's been a blow to their integrity with the way the roll out of the new program has been handled. Before June 20th, I trusted Marriott. After June 20th I'm reserving judgement until I see how Marriott behaves.

It's my opinion that there are a lot of if's with this new program. No one knows exactly how it's going to be run and Marriott isn't going to give out those details. Over the next 2 years TUGGERS will have the program figured out and will know the pitfalls and pluses of the system.

I think what makes everyone nervous right now is the unknown. How will Interval inventory be affected? Who's first in line when it comes to exchange requests? How often and by how much will points be adjusted? Will Marriott take inventory and use for rentals rather put weeks into the pool? Will Marriott be aggresively buying up resale weeks for the program? How will booking your home resort work once there are several points owners potentially competing for the same weeks?

Before June 20th we KNEW the answers. After June 20th we're all relearning the game. By this time next year things will be a little more clear. Until them there will still be speculation and uneasiness amoung Marriott owners and TUG members. None of us know for sure what the future holds. Anyone that tells you they have a complete grasp of the system probably has something to sell you.


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## GaryDouglas (Jul 6, 2010)

On April 22, 2010, Marriott Ownershiip Resorts Inc moved 36 Maui Ocean Club deeds to First American Trust FSB.  There were other transfers from other resorts in April to this trust.  I don't know if that's the designated trust for the new points system.  As Hawaii's Bureau of Conveyances updates their database, I'll pull the numbers for May and June and thoughout the remainder of the year.  These should be useful facts going forward.  Everything else is conjucture...


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## cruisin (Jul 6, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> It's going to take a long time to have enough trust owners who are strictly points for inventory to become a problem IMHO. I anticpate that a good number of legacy owners who join will join for the one fee for all services vs the ala carte pricing. As such I would be those owners continue to utlilze the weeks based exchange sytem rather than convert their ownership to points, thus avoiding the skim.
> .




This is the only feature that makes joining worth it to me, my problem is that after a couple years, they can simply start charging fees for the services again, I am sure it will start out low, but another easy money maker, once they have you, they have you by the.....


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## MALC9990 (Jul 6, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> The more I think about this Marriott point system, the more I conclude that the early actions of Marriott with respect to resale weeks owners is simply to get the program started.  What I mean by that is on day one, there is no inventory available outside of what is in the current trust, but Marriott will be selling as if it has availability everywhere.  At first, I thought they created a clever way to claw back weeks from II and to trick owners into giving control of weeks to Marriott by signing up.  However, after thinking about it some more, I don't think those actions alone are going to work to make the Marriott Vacation Club Points system successful over time.
> 
> Points systems are successful when the inventory is predictable and owners can easily learn when to try to get reservations they want for peak season.  So, those points systems where there is lots of inventory that gets deposited in advance provides that attribute.  Disney has it because all resort units are in the system.  Same with WorldMark.  Bluegreen has it for resorts that started off completely as points resorts.  So will Marriott with those resorts they initially put into the system.
> 
> ...



This is exactly how Marriott created and launced the Marriott Vacation Club Asia Pacific. This is a points based system. They bought all the unsold units from MVCI at Phuket Beach Club and Mai Khao Beach Club along with units in Hawaii and Las Vegas from MVCI. They also acuired units in a Condo Development in Bangkok and are doing so in other locations in Asia - big expansion into China.

Additionally they have set up arrangements with a range of Marriott Hotels where you can use your MVCAP points to stay nights at a hotel (just like using your MR points). Also in Australia on the GOLD coast in Queensland a Courtyard hotel is being converted to Timeshare units that will be part of the points system also.

They don't appear to be exercising ROFR at Phuket Beach Club yet, but to get more units avaiulable for points they offered the opportunity to exchange your weeks at Phuket Beach Club for MVCAP points - one week gets me 32,500 points (enough points for a week) - all I had to do was buy into the MVCAP points.

So far I only used points to stay in hotels but the rate was excellent. I stayed 3 nights at the Singapore Marriott for 9000 MVCAP points which is equivalent in value to 45,000 MR points - the MR points rate at the hotel for 3 nights was 90,000 - so a 50% saving on the reward points rate. Of course there is a fee to convert my MVCAP points into MR points.

So far the new Destinations points system has not been rolled out into the European resorts and they are still selling weeks with inventory at Playa Anndaluz, Paris and Majorca but I would guess that it is only a matter of time before they roll out in Europe. None of the reps at Majorca knew anything about this new points scheme when I was there last week. At least they said they knew nothing !!


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## dougp26364 (Jul 6, 2010)

cruisin said:


> This is the only feature that makes joining worth it to me, my problem is that after a couple years, they can simply start charging fees for the services again, I am sure it will start out low, but another easy money maker, once they have you, they have you by the.....



The great thing about this membership is that you can elect to non-renew anytime you choose. They have at least made it easy to go back to the old ways. 

Fee's will go up. They always do. Internal's exchange fee's have gone up over the years as well. Unless you bought a week strictly to use and never exchange, you'll always be paying increased fee's for memberships, lock-off and exchanges.


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## Cindala (Jul 6, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> Marriott, for as long as I've been an owner, has had the Marriott desk. These are I.I. employee's trained especially to handle Marriott owners exchange request. Even my calls for non-Marriott weeks are direct to the Marriott desk just because I'm a Marriott owner.
> 
> I would anticipate that Marriott isn't employing it's own personel to handle exchanges. My bet would be that Marriott is once again contracting the work out to Interval. I would anticipate that these are the same empoyee's that also staff the "Marriott" desk.



So it "should" be business as usual like before the new program. No favoritism towards new points system?


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## josh1231 (Jul 6, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> The more I think about this Marriott point system, the more I conclude that the early actions of Marriott with respect to resale weeks owners is simply to get the program started.  What I mean by that is on day one, there is no inventory available outside of what is in the current trust, but Marriott will be selling as if it has availability everywhere.  At first, I thought they created a clever way to claw back weeks from II and to trick owners into giving control of weeks to Marriott by signing up.  However, after thinking about it some more, I don't think those actions alone are going to work to make the Marriott Vacation Club Points system successful over time.
> 
> Points systems are successful when the inventory is predictable and owners can easily learn when to try to get reservations they want for peak season.  So, those points systems where there is lots of inventory that gets deposited in advance provides that attribute.  Disney has it because all resort units are in the system.  Same with WorldMark.  Bluegreen has it for resorts that started off completely as points resorts.  So will Marriott with those resorts they initially put into the system.
> 
> ...



As another poster previously pointed out, Marriott can grab weeks from people who deposit their weeks with interval and make them available to point’s users, thus making the points inventory as strong as the weeks inventory by default. This makes their need to purchase weeks for points programinventory use non-existant.

They have a huge supply of weeks with which to sell points from, and an even larger supply of previously difficult to sell really crappy weeks, which now they can sell because a point is a point. This makes their need to purchase points because of lack of availability of points to sell non-existant.

When you also consider their current financial position, I would be surprised if they exercised ROFR for anything other than the occassional needed week, or ridiculously low sales price.

If they get to a point where they are low on points inventory, they are going to be doing very well financially from selling that entire inventory, and I would think at that point perhaps exercise ROFR, but they could also just build a new property.

For these reasons I simply don't see them exercising ROFR anytime in the near future, though it's not impossible I am wrong as I don't have a crystal ball and can only speculate like anyone else.


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## RedDogSD (Jul 6, 2010)

Cindala said:


> When I call II, I get the Marriott desk as a Marriott owner. Now this seems to me to be a conflict of interest if I am given the Marriott desk as I am not joining the points program.
> 
> If II could have a sweetheart deal with Marriott, who is looking out for my best interests as a deeded weeks owner?




Just so you know....the guys at the Marriott desk are usually not ONLY working on Marriott properties.  I get the same guys when I call the Consolidated Desk for II as when I call the Marriott desk with II.  They even admitted to me that they just have certain people trained to understand the specific programs used by some developers.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 6, 2010)

josh1231 said:


> As another poster previously pointed out, Marriott can grab weeks from people who deposit their weeks with interval and make them available to point’s users, thus making the points inventory as strong as the weeks inventory by default. This makes their need to purchase weeks for points programinventory use non-existant.



The point of my post is that even if Marriott has the perfect claw back agreement with II, they rely on 1) the owner depositing for points and 2) and owner depositing their week into II.  Those timetables are not very predictable.

What a point system requires is lots of inventory available at the 13 month mark.  They can only guarantee that if the trust owns it.  That is basis for my assertion that Marriott will want to acquire such weeks.


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## Bill4728 (Jul 6, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> What a point system requires is lots of inventory available at the 13 month mark.  They can only guarantee that if the trust owns it.  That is basis for my assertion that Marriott will want to acquire such weeks.


I agree, IMHO, unless Marriott gets a whole bunch of people to join their system, t (OR aggressively acquire weeks) the trust will not have a lot of inventory and be a failure.


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## camachinist (Jul 6, 2010)

> What a point system requires is lots of inventory available at the 13 month mark.



One reasonable question wrt this which remains IMO is will Marriott cook the back end of the reservation system to favor the trust? IOW, at any resort, in any peak period, their desired reservations for the trust will simply be executed first, before any 'external' owners reservations can be processed? Days on the 'calendar' can simply 'go away' without explanation and everyone will figure 'darn, I just didn't get in this year'. IMO, that's a real slippery slope and we need owners with historical data and experience to work this going forward. Marriott can promulgate 'separate buckets' all they want, but, unless I see those two shiny new buckets for myself in their reservation system, I'll discount that as factual. Trust with verification 

*If* this cooking of the books does happen and weeks owners become disappointed and choose to sell into this down market with such weeks precluded from being eligible for enrollment into DCP, here comes the Hoover (that's Marriott) sweeping them up at low prices with ROFR and taking those deeds and adding to the pot cooking in the boiler room. Yummy. 

Edit: It just occurred to me that Marriott could be using the same strategy MBA's use in labor dynamics to 'refresh' the labor force at significant cost advantages and profit enhancement potentials. 'Pruning the tree' of the old, expensive, cranky, tired weeks owners and replacing them with a newer, younger, more flexible 'labor force' with DCP. Interesting. If I hadn't learned of such tactics wrt labor from business colleagues, I never would've considered this. 

I'll be watching ROFR activity at my resort, as well as Marriott internal 'deeding' there, closely. It might be time to attend one of those annual HOA meetings and see what's 'cooking'


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## hotcoffee (Jul 6, 2010)

Bill4728 said:


> I agree, IMHO, unless Marriott gets a whole bunch of people to join their system, t (OR aggressively acquire weeks) the trust will not have a lot of inventory and be a failure.



It appears to me that the Trust already has a lot of weeks.  According to the documentation I received, I was kind of shocked to see all of the MOC weeks they seem to have.  Also, the Ko Olina shows up as having a whole bunch of weeks (a lot more than MOC, actually).  It looks to me that they have some pretty good resorts in inventory, but I don't know if they are good views.  Nevertheless, I suspect they still might grab some good weeks via ROFR (or foreclosue) at resorts that they have little or no inventory.

The points program will not be a failure.  They are not going back to the old system.  They might tweak the program here and there if and when needed, but they are not going to scrap it.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 6, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> The point of my post is that even if Marriott has the perfect claw back agreement with II, they rely on 1) the owner depositing for points and 2) and owner depositing their week into II.  Those timetables are not very predictable.



Exactly, but that is the same thing that non-points exchangers rely on.  Even so, it certainly looks to me like Marriott will have an advantage acquiring Request-First search weeks because they have their own inventory to meet the Request-First search.  In fact, those who think that Request-First searches will keep their week out of the hands of points exchangers (why they really care about that is a mystery) are probably doing the points exchangers a favor.  A Deposit-First allows anyone to grab the deposited week.  Marriott has no advantage there.  But, a Request-First search can tap into the Marriott inventory resulting in a better chance of being satisfied.  There are no strings being pulled.  It's just that they have more to offer II than any one single non-points exchanger.



BocaBum99 said:


> What a point system requires is lots of inventory available at the 13 month mark.  They can only guarantee that if the trust owns it.  That is basis for my assertion that Marriott will want to acquire such weeks.



Agreed.  But, they probably have more inventory than we know about.  I think they have this thing pretty well figured out.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 6, 2010)

camachinist said:


> One reasonable question wrt this which remains IMO is will Marriott cook the back end of the reservation system to favor the trust? IOW, at any resort, in any peak period, their desired reservations for the trust will simply be executed first, before any 'external' owners reservations can be processed? Days on the 'calendar' can simply 'go away' without explanation and everyone will figure 'darn, I just didn't get in this year'. IMO, that's a real slippery slope and we need owners with historical data and experience to work this going forward. Marriott can promulgate 'separate buckets' all they want, but, unless I see those two shiny new buckets for myself in their reservation system, I'll discount that as factual. Trust with verification
> 
> *If* this cooking of the books does happen and weeks owners become disappointed and choose to sell into this down market with such weeks precluded from being eligible for enrollment into DCP, here comes the Hoover (that's Marriott) sweeping them up at low prices with ROFR and taking those deeds and adding to the pot cooking in the boiler room. Yummy.



I don't think Marriott will have the audacity of jumping all weeks owners in queue.  I've worked for large companies with brands to protect.  The internal brand police just won't let them cross that line.  If it were Wyndham, Westgate or Diamond, I may be more concerned.  Even Wyndham has showed some restraint in certain areas.

For now, this is all abstract to people who haven't seen a points system that has both fully committed resorts and partially committed resorts in terms of what happens to availability and the perception of availability.

Take Bluegreen, as an example of one I knew extremely well, they have two types of resorts.  Club resorts and Club Associate resorts.  The big difference between the two types is that most if not all of the inventory at a Club resort is committed to the Club.  At the 11 month mark, availability is rich.  Most people don't have trouble getting what they want even in prime season.  Club Associate Resorts are hard to get into. Why? Because there isn't enough predictable inventory.  The availability picture is like night and day.

The same will be true for Marriott.  The Trust resorts will have great availability.  It will look to owners like they can get in there anytime they want.  The other resorts, they will have to put in a waitlist request.  That is a very dissatifying experience.

Remember, Marriott's goal will be to sell 1000 points or more to owners each and every time they vacation.  The first time they say they couldn't get what they wanted will be the first time the sales guy says. That used to be true, but Marriott now has an aggressive ROFR and buy back plan to get more inventory at resorts you want.  So, buy another 1000 points from me today and I will get you Premier or Premier Plus status for a year while we get our inventory act together.


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## josh1231 (Jul 6, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> The point of my post is that even if Marriott has the perfect claw back agreement with II, they rely on 1) the owner depositing for points and 2) and owner depositing their week into II.  Those timetables are not very predictable.
> 
> What a point system requires is lots of inventory available at the 13 month mark.  They can only guarantee that if the trust owns it.  That is basis for my assertion that Marriott will want to acquire such weeks.



This is a valid point. That being said, the person trying to book 13-months out has deposited their week for points, adding one week to the total number of weeks available for points users. So has everyone else who is looking to book 13-months out. Because of this, there would be inventory at many resorts for people to reserve.

So although the timing of deposits is unknown as you said, the people booking at 13-months out would of had to deposit their weeks to book, thus adding to the available inventory. When you add in the number of weeks they still own at most of the resorts, I believe they will have plenty of inventory.


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## camachinist (Jul 6, 2010)

> I don't think Marriott will have the audacity of jumping all weeks owners in queue. I've worked for large companies with brands to protect. The internal brand police just won't let them cross that line.



I hope you're right. I'm watching, of all things, low/off-season bulk banks, as an indicator of any trends. Right now, they're looking pretty healthy, compared to similar targeted searches over the last six years. If they 'go away', those reservation dates are going somewhere 

While perhaps misplaced here, my healthy skepticism of Marriott has been the result of a fifteen year relationship with them, first as a frequent hotel user, then later as a developer timeshare owner. IMO, the Marriott which 'sold' me our NCV weeks seven years ago doesn't exist anymore, as a corporate culture. Change is inevitable. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. Time will tell here. I definitely won't be accused of any 180's.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 6, 2010)

josh1231 said:


> This is a valid point. That being said, the person trying to book 13-months out has deposited their week for points, adding one week to the total number of weeks available for points users. So has everyone else who is looking to book 13-months out. Because of this, there would be inventory at many resorts for people to reserve.
> 
> So although the timing of deposits is unknown as you said, the people booking at 13-months out would of had to deposit their weeks to book, thus adding to the available inventory. When you add in the number of weeks they still own at most of the resorts, I believe they will have plenty of inventory.



This brings up an interesting point.  I wonder if it would be smarter for a premier or premier plus exchanger to wait a day or so after the beginning of the reservation opening to allow some exchange inventory to build up?  But, on the other hand, they could just go on the wait list and pick up weeks deposited later.


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## SueDonJ (Jul 6, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> This brings up an interesting point.  I wonder if it would be smarter for a premier or premier plus exchanger to wait a day or so after the beginning of the reservation opening to allow some exchange inventory to build up?  But, on the other hand, they could just go on the wait list and pick up weeks deposited later.



Somewhere in a thread we figured out the other day that generally the 13- and 12-month reservation windows for Points open 1-3 days later than the 13- and 12-mo marks for Weeks anyway.  In that thread we were trying to figure out if that's another indication that Marriott will hold to the "bucket theory" floating around for inventory allocations.  But you bring up another possible reason for the deliberate delay, it gives time for exchange deposits to show up for Points owners.


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## josh1231 (Jul 6, 2010)

Bill4728 said:


> I agree, IMHO, unless Marriott gets a whole bunch of people to join their system, t (OR aggressively acquire weeks) the trust will not have a lot of inventory and be a failure.



Really, they only need as much inventory as people they have join the system. They have significant inventory at almost all properties, and if only 15 people join the points program, they only need enough inventory for those 15 people, and those 15 people by definition have deposited their weeks, so therefore they have enough inventory for those people. Their additional unsold inventory is going to be above and beyond what people are actually trading in to book.

When you also consider that the 15 people who deposited their week for points, only have enough points to reserve 13 of those weeks, you have even less need for additional inventory.


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## BocaBoy (Jul 6, 2010)

Of course they have a lot of Ko Olina inventory.  The third tower is not even fully opened yet.

As for a premier sold-out resort like Waiohai, they may well need to acquire more weeks from existing weeks owners.  But that should not in any way hurt the remaining weeks owners.  

We shall see.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 6, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Of course they have a lot of Ko Olina inventory.  The third tower is not even fully opened yet.
> 
> As for a premier sold-out resort like Waiohai, they may well need to acquire more weeks from existing weeks owners.  But that should not in any way hurt the remaining weeks owners.
> 
> We shall see.



I have not kept up with which resorts are sold out and which are not.  In the enrollment disclosure documents they send out, they have the list of 11 resorts that have unsold inventory going into the Trust (as of February 2010).  I was surprised that there is was much MOC inventory there.  Although I've been to that area multiple times, I've never been to the Marriott and don't even recall having seen it.  There is also construction going on at Frenchman's Cove I've heard; so I guess they will eventually have a bunch of units there also.

At one point when I talked to my rep, he mention about Marriott adding inventory via foreclosures.  So, they are probably picking up inventory little-by-little even as we speak.  As time goes by, I suspect that they will have inventory everywhere.  I get the feeling that those predicting failure of this program are in for some disappointment.


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## josh1231 (Jul 6, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Of course they have a lot of Ko Olina inventory.  The third tower is not even fully opened yet.
> 
> As for a premier sold-out resort like Waiohai, they may well need to acquire more weeks from existing weeks owners.  But that should not in any way hurt the remaining weeks owners.
> 
> We shall see.



What would you say are the premier sold-out properties?


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## dioxide45 (Jul 7, 2010)

I just don't see Marriott starting any kind of active buyback or ROFR program. Marriott already knows historically how many people redeem their weeks for MR points and exchange their weeks through II. They know how many people for week X at resort Y give up their week, they know they can in most cases get their hands on it for points inventory. So they don't need to gain additional access to units for the points trust.

There are a few select prime weeks that they may need to acquire and may try to pick up a few for the trust. Overall however, they have over 42MM points in the trust. That is going to take a long time for them to sell in this economy.


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## josh1231 (Jul 7, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I just don't see Marriott starting any kind of active buyback or ROFR program. Marriott already knows historically how many people redeem their weeks for MR points and exchange their weeks through II. They know how many people for week X at resort Y give up their week, they know they can in most cases get their hands on it for points inventory. So they don't need to gain additional access to units for the points trust.
> 
> There are a few select prime weeks that they may need to acquire and may try to pick up a few for the trust. Overall however, they have over 42MM points in the trust. That is going to take a long time for them to sell in this economy.



Where can I find the information like points in trust, etc...


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2010)

josh1231 said:


> Where can I find the information like points in trust, etc...



This thread includes links to the recorded documents where I found the information.


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## ldanna (Jul 8, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> So, given that, I will predict that Marriott will indeed NOT allow new exchange relationships to enroll, rather they will acquire units via ROFR and via equity trade ins into the program.  In this way, they can acquire new inventory at the same time they are moving current points inventory.
> 
> The points program will only be as strong as the inventory in the Trust.   This will occur only when the current inventory levels at Marriott are worked down sufficiently.  But, when that happens, I expect Marriott to be buying.  But, they will be buying weeks, not points.



No, not aquiring units via ROFR. This would mean extra expenses on MF. And the weeks Marriott wants are not for sale. Ski weeks usually don't go for sale. People use them or rent them ($3k to $4k in Park City for example). HHI platinum? High owner occupancy and you just don't see them around for sale. HI? Lots of Trust inventory.

What I do agree is that the points program will be as strong as the inventory on the trust. And Marriott can't count on inventory (ROFR or deposits) on the most wanted properties.

BTW, it has been reported an increase on the rental offers in RedWeek and a shortage on II inventory available for exchange this year.


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## tlwmkw (Jul 8, 2010)

dioxide,

I agree with you.  I don't think they'll be buying in much more to add to the trust.  They would then have to pay MF's on those weeks and tie up capital which no one would want to do in the current economy.  They can sell "the dream" even if the underlying inventory doesn't contain every resort.  Every time someone redeems for MRP's that will be available for points and any legacy who enrolls and trades their week for points will make that week available.  I think the points availability at some of the sold out resorts where owners usually occupy will be limited.  Marriott is going to have some unhappy points owners when they find it is not so easy to book at certain locations- and they don't even have a home resort!  It'll be interesting to see what happens as this system really gets going.

tlwmkw


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## Fredm (Jul 8, 2010)

In a perverse way the current economic climate is a benefit to the timing of the D Club roll-out.

Several of our selling clients were delinquent on maintenance fees.
Marriott has begun to offer take-backs in lieu of fees.
While this does not make sense for many Platinum Season owners, it is a reasonable alternative for some Gold owners who want to get on with life. So, Marriott is picking up, for example, Desert Springs White weeks for the price of the 2010 fees. Some owners will not go for it, but some are.

Undoubtedly, these weeks are being placed in the points pool.  
Given the hard times many owners find themselves in, this source of points can be meaningful to Marriott's program.


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## camachinist (Jul 8, 2010)

> Given the hard times many owners find themselves in, this source of points can be meaningful to Marriott's program.



Good point. When the house next to my mom's foreclosed, I was shocked that the owners hadn't paid their property taxes for SIX years. Who knows when they paid their last mortgage payment. This is in a nice modest neighborhood. I can only imagine how timeshares have been affected, since those are merely vacations. I would imagine there are a lot of deeds of trust in default as well as MF's past due. Plenty of gold for Marriott to selectively mine  before they resort to using ROFR. My bet is they'll set a floor figure, relevant to the 'value' of the particular interval in points, inclusive of all costs of acquisition, and use that parameter as a broad brush to sweep in desired intervals, whether through default or through ROFR. Whatever meets the test is acquired.

The cool thing is we can watch deeding activity at our respective resorts and get a snapshot of what's going on. When Marriott acquires/transfers, it's recorded. Public record.


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## Fredm (Jul 8, 2010)

camachinist said:


> Plenty of gold for Marriott to selectively mine  before they resort to using ROFR. My bet is they'll set a floor figure, relevant to the 'value' of the particular interval in points, inclusive of all costs of acquisition, and use that parameter as a broad brush to sweep in desired intervals, whether through default or through ROFR. Whatever meets the test is acquired.



Exactly!...


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 8, 2010)

Just curious to those who believe Marriott will not exercise ROFR.  What do you think Marriott will do when they work down their current inventory?

1) They will build new resorts?  Talk about Capital intensity

2) They won't ever run out of inventory?  They were so over built that it will be 10 years before they work it down?  Or, Loan/maintenance fee defaults will be sufficient to replenish inventory?

3) They won't do anything.  They will just sell points that aren't tied to inventory?

4) They will stop selling points?

5) They will just sell exchange memberships and reverse their original decision and become a fee for service company?

6) They will just broker resale points and weeks?

I believe the most logical conclusion will be that they will determine that exercising ROFR is the cheapest way to add inventory to the Trust.  And, it will have the added benefit of reducing the average $MF/point by picking the right weeks.

They will also do equity trade ins to get new inventory.  That may be the primary approach so that they sell something at the same time they acquire new inventory.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 8, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I just don't see Marriott starting any kind of active buyback or ROFR program. Marriott already knows historically how many people redeem their weeks for MR points and exchange their weeks through II. They know how many people for week X at resort Y give up their week, they know they can in most cases get their hands on it for points inventory. So they don't need to gain additional access to units for the points trust.
> 
> There are a few select prime weeks that they may need to acquire and may try to pick up a few for the trust. Overall however, they have over 42MM points in the trust. That is going to take a long time for them to sell in this economy.



So, what will Marriott do when they run out of inventory?  Do you believe they will never run out?


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## RedDogSD (Jul 8, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Just curious to those who believe Marriott will not exercise ROFR.  What do you think Marriott will do when they work down their current inventory?
> 
> 1) They will build new resorts?  Talk about Capital intensity
> 
> ...




I think this may happen, but not in the short term.  Marriott has plenty of inventory to sell points for now.  At some point, they will need to acquire some inventory, but they do not want to add the ongoing cost of Maintenance on properties until they have sold enough points to justify the cost.  I think they are at least 1 year away from that, so I think we are ok.  In a year....maybe.  Lets look at the Economic dynamics again since now it seems that we may be heading into a double dip housing recession and it does not bode well that last months jobs numbers had the country losing jobs again after a couple of months of gaining jobs (although most of this was due to the Census).


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## bw3 (Jul 8, 2010)

*unsold inventory*

The most recent estimate I was given from a Marriott insider was that the unsold inventory in the newer resorts was roughly $2 billion (at full prices).  I think it will be a while before they need ROFR.


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## josh1231 (Jul 8, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Just curious to those who believe Marriott will not exercise ROFR.  What do you think Marriott will do when they work down their current inventory?
> 
> 1) They will build new resorts?  Talk about Capital intensity
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone ever said they would never exercise ROFR, they just aren't going to do it anytime in the near future. If they sell all 42 Million points they have in the trust at this time, yes, they might start then.

The title of the post was "I believe Marriott will aggressively acquire weeks into Points Trust", not "I believe Marriott will aggressively acquire weeks into Points Trust a year or two from now". 

In the short term, which was how your title was written, I don't believe they will exercise ROFR, with the rare exception. 

In the long-term, who knows what will happen. The one thing that is certain about most timeshare's is their steady depreciation. There's simply no need to purchase today, something that will be worth less a year from now.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 8, 2010)

josh1231 said:


> I don't think anyone ever said they would never exercise ROFR, they just aren't going to do it anytime in the near future. If they sell all 42 Million points they have in the trust at this time, yes, they might start then.
> 
> The title of the post was "I believe Marriott will aggressively acquire weeks into Points Trust", not "I believe Marriott will aggressively acquire weeks into Points Trust a year or two from now".
> 
> ...



This is a direct quote from my original post:



> So, given that, I will predict that Marriott will indeed NOT allow new exchange relationships to enroll, rather they will acquire units via ROFR and via equity trade ins into the program. In this way, they can acquire new inventory at the same time they are moving current points inventory.
> 
> The points program will only be as strong as the inventory in the Trust. *This will occur only when the current inventory levels at Marriott are worked down sufficiently*. But, when that happens, I expect Marriott to be buying. But, they will be buying weeks, not points.



If Marriott does have $2B worth of inventory left to sell, that is 3 years of inventory when selling at the same rate as 1Q10 of $173M.

That acquisition program could start as soon as 2 years from now.


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## windje2000 (Jul 8, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Overall however, they have over 42MM points in the trust. That is going to take a long time for them to sell in this economy.







BocaBum99 said:


> If Marriott does have $2B worth of inventory left to sell, that is 3 years of inventory when selling at the same rate as 1Q10 of $173M.
> 
> That acquisition program could start as soon as 2 years from now.



I can't reconcile 42 Million points in the Trust( = $420 Million @ $10/pt) and $2 Billion of unsold inventory.


What am I missing?


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## tlwmkw (Jul 8, 2010)

I believe that Fletch said they had approx five years worth of inventory going in to the points program.  I don't thing they will start to exercise ROFR anytime soon if that is the case.  Yes, they may eventually do so if they are selling lots of points but I can't see any reason for them to do so anytime soon.  Plus with the points program people can buy smaller chunks- therefore it may take longer to sell than if they were selling weeks.

I bet they will eventually allow any re-sale weeks to join the points program.  After all they said that re-sales would never be able to trade for MRP's and with this new program they now can- if they want this program to be a success they will have to make it work as quickly as possible to please new points owners.

tlwmkw


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 8, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> I can't reconcile 42 Million points in the Trust( = $420 Million @ $10/pt) and $2 Billion of unsold inventory.
> 
> 
> What am I missing?



I actually don't know what the inventory number is.  What you are seeing is 2 different numbers reported by 2 different people, neither of whom has the exact number either.  Only a real or re-stated data point.

My point remains the same.  Once Marriott works down its current inventory, I believe that they will aggressively exercise ROFR and allow equity trade ins to fill the current void in the current Trust in meeting supply and demand of internal exchangers.  The only question is how far out that will be.  Is it 2 years or 5 years?  Time will tell.

In the intervening period, there will be some ROFR of the highest demand weeks due to the fact that these units don't always go on the market and the Trust needs it.

Don't see why Marriott won't allow equity trade ins right away since they won't be taking on new maintenance fees and they will be selling points now while diversifying the Trust base.


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## windje2000 (Jul 8, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I actually don't know what the inventory number is.  What you are seeing is 2 different numbers reported by 2 different people, neither of whom has the exact number either.  Only a real or re-stated data point.
> 
> My point remains the same.  Once Marriott works down its current inventory, I believe that they will aggressively exercise ROFR and allow equity trade ins to fill the current void in the current Trust in meeting supply and demand of internal exchangers.  The only question is how far out that will be.  Is it 2 years or 5 years?  Time will tell.
> 
> ...



Agree with your observation - The numbers are clearly very different.  I think dioxide's 42MM points estimate is from the documents and probably closer to reality than the $2B in gossip.

An accurate estimate of that number together with estimates of quarterly sales portends the timing of the next steps in their plans.


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## josh1231 (Jul 8, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I actually don't know what the inventory number is.  What you are seeing is 2 different numbers reported by 2 different people, neither of whom has the exact number either.  Only a real or re-stated data point.
> 
> My point remains the same.  Once Marriott works down its current inventory, I believe that they will aggressively exercise ROFR and allow equity trade ins to fill the current void in the current Trust in meeting supply and demand of internal exchangers.  The only question is how far out that will be.  Is it 2 years or 5 years?  Time will tell.
> 
> ...



I would assume the 42 million points they are referring to would be for the properties they have in the points trust, and the $2 billion would be those as well, plus the vast array of weeks they did not use for the points trust.


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## windje2000 (Jul 8, 2010)

josh1231 said:


> I would assume the 42 million points they are referring to would be for the properties they have in the points trust, and the $2 billion would be those as well, plus the vast array of weeks they did not use for the points trust.



Do you have hard information (documents) on the amount of unsold inventory contributed to the trust versus the amount retained by the corporation?


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## josh1231 (Jul 8, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Do you have hard information (documents) on the amount of unsold inventory contributed to the trust versus the amount retained by the corporation?



In a previous post in this discussion, Dioxide lists a link to trust documents. If you look at the new property property in Kauai, from what I am reading they put 13 units into the trust, for 3.5 Million points. That is a rather large property, so I am assuming it has more than 13 unsold units. If I'm reading the numbers correctly, this would mean a good deal of inventory not in the trust.


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## josh1231 (Jul 8, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> This is a direct quote from my original post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was confused because in the first part of your post you seem to be stating this is going to be an immediate event, however in the lower part of your post you do say that when the points run out. 

So to that end, I will agree with you that it is possible that in the next 3 years Marriott would start to Exercise ROFR, though I would hardly consider it to be a sure thing.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 8, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I actually don't know what the inventory number is.  What you are seeing is 2 different numbers reported by 2 different people, neither of whom has the exact number either.  Only a real or re-stated data point.
> 
> My point remains the same.  Once Marriott works down its current inventory, I believe that they will aggressively exercise ROFR and allow equity trade ins to fill the current void in the current Trust in meeting supply and demand of internal exchangers.  The only question is how far out that will be.  Is it 2 years or 5 years?  Time will tell.
> 
> ...



Just doing some simple math, as of February, 2010, it appears that 11,975 weeks were unsold from 11 resorts; and barring any more sales, that number (probably less) could have been used to initialize the inventory.  One can assume that they probably have been able to acquire some additional weeks since then.  So, they are not hurting for inventory.  But, I still think they will probably acquire weeks at resorts that they currently have little or none.

The advantage for points exchangers is the inventory can be used to satisfy II searches as well as those internal exchanges not needing II searches.  Interestingly, about 2,771 of those weeks were in Hawaii.  Those will be particularly useful for satisfying II searches, which could conceivably also make Hawaii easier to trade into for non-points exchangers.


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## JMAESD84 (Jul 8, 2010)

I believe that Marriott will only selectively ROFR inventory from a resale market that they hope to destroy. 

Once the resale market has bottomed out they will have an ample source of inventory "to flip" through reacquisition and resale as points.   

Over many years Marriott will reacquire control over the many properties that they developed and sold off.  With that control they can ensure that the "current costs to owners" will continue to meet their bottom line goals.

Marriott has very nice resorts but IMO they should not be owned, their use should be acquired by more cost effective methods.


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## marg05 (Jul 8, 2010)

*What is ROHR?*

Could someone tell me what ROHR stands for?

Thanks, Margy


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## RedDogSD (Jul 8, 2010)

ROFR, not ROHR.

Right of First Refusal.   It means that if you sell your property to me for $500, that Marriott has the right to buy it at same price.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 8, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> So, what will Marriott do when they run out of inventory?  Do you believe they will never run out?



When they get close to running out they will definitely start ROFR and equity exchanges. I think they may offer equity exchanges sooner rather than later. This way they get week for points inventory with no MF risk.

Marriott will buy back weeks to recycle in to points and it is very unlikely that they will start any new resorts in the next decade. I think they may finish a few that they may have obligations to do so (Marco being one).

Your title indicated an urgent need to start using ROFR, so I missed the comment further down that indicated later rather than sooner.


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## rpw (Jul 9, 2010)

*based on current evidence I have to assume you are wrong*



BocaBum99 said:


> I actually don't know what the inventory number is.  What you are seeing is 2 different numbers reported by 2 different people, neither of whom has the exact number either.  Only a real or re-stated data point.
> 
> My point remains the same.  Once Marriott works down its current inventory, I believe that they will aggressively exercise ROFR and allow equity trade ins to fill the current void in the current Trust in meeting supply and demand of internal exchangers.  The only question is how far out that will be.  Is it 2 years or 5 years?  Time will tell.
> 
> ...



I just had a Maui Ocean Club Villa Ocean View pass ROFR about 4 weeks ago.  If Maui is their most popular resort and the Villas the most limited number of weeks, why would they let that pass?


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

rpw said:


> I just had a Maui Ocean Club Villa Ocean View pass ROFR about 4 weeks ago.  If Maui is their most popular resort and the Villas the most limited number of weeks, why would they let that pass?



They don't have the cash now.  If you didn't have a job and the house you are renting comes up for sale $100k below market and lower than your current rent is the total cost of ownership, you still may not make that deal even though you want it.

One data point doesn't invalidate an argument for what the company is likely going to do in the future.  I am talking about a qualitative change in behavior and describe the likely preconditions for when it will happen and why.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> When they get close to running out they will definitely start ROFR and equity exchanges. I think they may offer equity exchanges sooner rather than later. This way they get week for points inventory with no MF risk.
> 
> Marriott will buy back weeks to recycle in to points and it is very unlikely that they will start any new resorts in the next decade. I think they may finish a few that they may have obligations to do so (Marco being one).
> 
> Your title indicated an urgent need to start using ROFR, so I missed the comment further down that indicated later rather than sooner.



I agree.  And, I should have been more clear in my title since others thought I meant what you thought as well.


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## josh1231 (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I agree.  And, I should have been more clear in my title since others thought I meant what you thought as well.



This may be the first time in the history of message boards, where a bunch of people who began by not agreeing on something, talked through it and actually understood where the others were coming from, and have come to a consensus. :whoopie:


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

josh1231 said:


> This may be the first time in the history of message boards, where a bunch of people who began by not agreeing on something, talked through it and actually understood where the others were coming from, and have come to a consensus. :whoopie:



LOL.  You may be right about the consensus.  However, I think the whole debating process helps most people come to a better understanding of the truth of a situation.  I know I find it to be true.

Sometimes it makes it less clear.  Fortunately, if you use good rational logic, it isn't hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 9, 2010)

rpw said:


> I just had a Maui Ocean Club Villa Ocean View pass ROFR about 4 weeks ago.  If Maui is their most popular resort and the Villas the most limited number of weeks, why would they let that pass?



They won't be ROFR'ing any MOC OV weeks any time soon.  They have over 600 weeks of mostly OV in their inventory.  Since the OFs and the GVs were sold out, it is conceiveable that might ROFR an OF week or so.  They won't be ROFR'ing any Ko Olina either.  They have a ton of those weeks. They might do an ROFR or two on Waiohai weeks if some steals show up.  Where they seem to lack any inventory is in the Caribbean.  Some of the posters who are more in the know as to why that might be true might care to comment on that.  It seems like there should be some Frenchmen's Cove there.  Isn't that still under construction?


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> They won't be ROFR'ing any MOC OV weeks any time soon.  They have over 600 weeks of mostly OV in their inventory.  Since the OFs and the GVs were sold out, it is conceiveable that might ROFR an OF week or so.  They won't be ROFR'ing any Ko Olina either.  They have a ton of those weeks. They might do an ROFR or two on Waiohai weeks if some steals show up.  Where they seem to lack any inventory is in the Caribbean.  Some of the posters who are more in the know as to why that might be true might care to comment on that.  It seems like there should be some Frenchmen's Cove there.  Isn't that still under construction?



Where did you find this information?  Is it published anywhere?


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

josh1231 said:


> This may be the first time in the history of message boards, where a bunch of people who began by not agreeing on something, talked through it and actually understood where the others were coming from, and have come to a consensus. :whoopie:



One more thing.  The only reason this doesn't happen more often is that one side usually takes a hardline position and won't acknowledge the other parties points and the debate continues forever with constant repetition of each sides talking points.

When all parties just want to learn the truth, it is much easier to get there amicably.


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## jlf58 (Jul 9, 2010)

MVCI is more about profit and less about what makes sense. Don't expect to see ROFR anytime soon with all those points they already have. Do you really think they are worried about not having an summr Grande Ocean weeks LOL ? hell no, its all about the dream ...


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## taffy19 (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Where did you find this information? Is it published anywhere?


Yes, it is. I posted it yesterday. Every unit is mentioned and all you do is look at a brochure with all the condo numbers on it and see what units they are. They are not oceanfront or island view as hotcoffee posted.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Where did you find this information?  Is it published anywhere?



If you are referring to the numbers of MOC and Ko Olina weeks, those are in the Public Offering statement they published and sent out to enrollees.  If you are referring to the MOC OV in the inventory, my rep told me that MOC OF and GV were sold out.  Therefore, by deduction what must be left is OV that got dumped into the Trust.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 9, 2010)

Fletch said:


> MVCI is more about profit and less about what makes sense. Don't expect to see ROFR anytime soon with all those points they already have. Do you really think they are worried about not having an summr Grande Ocean weeks LOL ? hell no, its all about the dream ...



When I found out how much Hawaii inventory they have, I have concluded that there will not be many ROFRs (unless they can pick up some real steals).  My theory is that they will use some of that Hawaiian inventory for II exchanges.  That is valuable inventory and will allow them to get nice exchanges for their points customers.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

Fletch said:


> MVCI is more about profit and less about what makes sense. Don't expect to see ROFR anytime soon with all those points they already have. Do you really think they are worried about not having an summr Grande Ocean weeks LOL ? hell no, its all about the dream ...



I believe that Resort Developers are very sales driven companies.  The most powerful people in the companies are from sales and therefore, they tend to optimize to sales success at the detriment of other organizations such as owner services or inventory management.  If that is what you mean by being profit driven, I would agree.

That said, there are organizations within these resort developers whose job it is to balance out inventory.  Doing so helps the customer satisfaction numbers and reduces costs to the call centers post sales.  

I believe Marriott has such organizations and they do the best they can to achieve as high satisfaction as possible while minimizing impact to sales. So, yes, I do think someone in MVCI cares about the inventory they hold.


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## m61376 (Jul 9, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> When I found out how much Hawaii inventory they have, I have concluded that there will not be many ROFRs (unless they can pick up some real steals).  My theory is that they will use some of that Hawaiian inventory for II exchanges.  That is valuable inventory and will allow them to get nice exchanges for their points customers.



Then why should a week owner, converted or not, pay the exorbitant point cost for Maui? IF Marriott is depositing those Hawaii weeks, for ex., to get the point requested trades for the Caribbean, etc., why not just use the week exchange system to exchange for those nice weeks?

The problem with selling the dream that Fletch alludes to is we live in an age of communication. Look at the negative posts on Bill Marriott's blog. What happens when new owners pay those big bucks for points and find that they can't get those reservations that they bought the points thinking they'd easily get? We live in an age where a few disgruntled owners can make a big difference. It is easy to Google and get info. on just about anything and, let's face it, it only takes a few really peeved owners to create a stir. Look at the posts already to Bill Marriott's blog- certainly not very flattering wrt this system. 

So I think they will find themselves in a pr quagmire if they don't try to secure inventory. And, since II is making it clear that Marriott has to provide commensurate weeks in trades, until/unless they have sufficient inventory we might see a lot of those Hawaii and Marco weeks that they have a lot of inventory left of.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 9, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Then why should a week owner, converted or not, pay the exorbitant point cost for Maui? IF Marriott is depositing those Hawaii weeks, for ex., to get the point requested trades for the Caribbean, etc., why not just use the week exchange system to exchange for those nice weeks?
> 
> The problem with selling the dream that Fletch alludes to is we live in an age of communication. Look at the negative posts on Bill Marriott's blog. What happens when new owners pay those big bucks for points and find that they can't get those reservations that they bought the points thinking they'd easily get? We live in an age where a few disgruntled owners can make a big difference. It is easy to Google and get info. on just about anything and, let's face it, it only takes a few really peeved owners to create a stir. Look at the posts already to Bill Marriott's blog- certainly not very flattering wrt this system.
> 
> So I think they will find themselves in a pr quagmire if they don't try to secure inventory. And, since II is making it clear that Marriott has to provide commensurate weeks in trades, until/unless they have sufficient inventory we might see a lot of those Hawaii and Marco weeks that they have a lot of inventory left of.



Actually, I don't take some of the views being expressed here that they will not do _any_ ROFRs.  I think they will.  But, they won't need to add any inventory that is too much like what they already have.  I mentioned in another post that I think they will still try to get some weeks at resorts or with views where they have little or nothing to offer.

However, don't sell their privileged access to II short.  They have a lot to offer that I think II will want to get their hands on.  That gives the Marriott Club Manager a strong hand in winning exchanges for enrolled club members using points for exchanges.  In fact, I'm pretty excited by the possibilities.  My KBC was great at winning exchanges into the Caribbean.  I was getting them almost instantly - two bedroom units each sleeping 8 with full kitchens for my 2 bedroom OF unit sleeping 6 with limited kitchen.  However, I was not doing well with exchanges into other Hawaiian resorts.  Now, with the points I will be getting for my week plus the points I'm buying, I have high hopes of pretty much going anywhere I want when I want (when exchanged inventory exists, of course).

I also do not take the view that Marriott will not implement any other options to their points program.  I think they have made too big of a commitment to the new program not to pump some more money into it.  This is not going to be an old coke/new code fiasco.  They would be crazy to do an about-face and dump the new system to return to the old.  If the numbers are not what they were hoping for, they will just make some changes to the program.  To go back would be a public relations blunder equal to Coca Cola's.  They would become the laughing stock of the industry.  Ain't going to happen.  The best the people who won't enroll can hope for would be for Marriott to re-introduce a weeks program running concurrently to their points program.


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## jlf58 (Jul 9, 2010)

So you think Marriott will all of a sudden create a budget for ROFR so some owners don't complain when they don't get into Hilton head ? The reality
was most MVCI owners hated II and that never slowed business so , sorry, I disagree with you 100%. Its all about the number. They will do what's best for THEM, period. Thats how big buisness works ! 





m61376 said:


> Then why should a week owner, converted or not, pay the exorbitant point cost for Maui? IF Marriott is depositing those Hawaii weeks, for ex., to get the point requested trades for the Caribbean, etc., why not just use the week exchange system to exchange for those nice weeks?
> 
> The problem with selling the dream that Fletch alludes to is we live in an age of communication. Look at the negative posts on Bill Marriott's blog. What happens when new owners pay those big bucks for points and find that they can't get those reservations that they bought the points thinking they'd easily get? We live in an age where a few disgruntled owners can make a big difference. It is easy to Google and get info. on just about anything and, let's face it, it only takes a few really peeved owners to create a stir. Look at the posts already to Bill Marriott's blog- certainly not very flattering wrt this system.
> 
> So I think they will find themselves in a pr quagmire if they don't try to secure inventory. And, since II is making it clear that Marriott has to provide commensurate weeks in trades, until/unless they have sufficient inventory we might see a lot of those Hawaii and Marco weeks that they have a lot of inventory left of.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

Fletch said:


> So you think Marriott will all of a sudden create a budget for ROFR so some owners don't complain when they don't get into Hilton head ? The reality
> was most MVCI owners hated II and that never slowed business so , sorry, I disagree with you 100%. Its all about the number. They will do what's best for THEM, period. Thats how big buisness works !



Customer satisfaction definitely matters to Marriott executives.  If you worked in the owner services organization for 6 months, you may get a different perspective on what a general manager sees and cares about.  Sure, they need to take care of the sales force, but not at the total expense of customer service.  It IS in the general managers best interest to pursue best efforts in keeping customers happy.

If you've only spent time working in a sales organization, I can see how you would form the opinion you have.  Sit in the staff meeting of a general manager and you will get a completely different perspective on what is important to a top manager.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 9, 2010)

Fletch said:


> So you think Marriott will all of a sudden create a budget for ROFR so some owners don't complain when they don't get into Hilton head ? The reality
> was most MVCI owners hated II and that never slowed business so , sorry, I disagree with you 100%. Its all about the number. They will do what's best for THEM, period. Thats how big buisness works !



I don't think that it will be so much of creating a budget for ROFRs as sinking into the program the necessary capital to make it work.  If the philosophy of not sinking any startup capital into a new business were followed by every businessman, there would be no startup businesses. This is a major change of direction for Marriott.  It would be suicidal for them to not offer new buyers something in return for their money.  What are they going to offer to entice people to buy points: three nights in a crowded Hawaiian or Caribbean resort?  It is probably true that people are looking for shorter vacations to save money.  But, I'm not convinced the allure of spending three nights in some far-off exotic location is going to be enough to entice people to give up thousands of dollars to travel to many of Marriott's existing resorts.


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## DanCali (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Customer satisfaction definitely matters to Marriott executives.



So what do you think will they do about the comments from Bill Marriott's blog?


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## hotcoffee (Jul 9, 2010)

DanCali said:


> So what do you think will they do about the comments from Bill Marriott's blog?



I don't think it will be to ditch the program.  They might make some tweaks in an attempt to address some of greatest concerns of their customers.  I would not be surprised if some changes will result from the negative feedback.  It depends upon whether they think the bloggers truly represent the views of the majority of their customers.  Most owners of weeks are not going to fly-the-coop.  They are kind of a captive audience in a way.  The market is not the best right now for selling.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

DanCali said:


> So what do you think will they do about the comments from Bill Marriott's blog?



I haven't seen the blog, but I'll assume that it's pretty negative.  My guess is that blog is seen by less than 1% of Marriott owners.  That's the first thing I would do.  Determine how important it is and how pervasive the issue is.

In general, we would give a much greater weight to our own internal customer satisfaction polls as recorded through our call centers, call hold times, increased call activity and feedback from the sales teams than blogs and message boards.

When I was on the top management team of a public company we took input from all external stakeholder groups in determining our response to issues of all kinds including product introductions.  I can tell you without a doubt that online message boards and blogs were the most vicious outlets of feedback.  Sometimes we just ignored them completely.  Other times, we took action if we found a real issue that needed to be addressed that we didn't anticipate previously.  My guess is that Marriott didn't anticipate how much attention skim would get.  They may seek to address it after rethinking it.  That's what I would do.


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## jlf58 (Jul 9, 2010)

I am not talking about owner service or sales. I am talking about people who decide this. Thanks but I have a very good prospective on all aspects in order to form this opinion. 



BocaBum99 said:


> Customer satisfaction definitely matters to Marriott executives.  If you worked in the owner services organization for 6 months, you may get a different perspective on what a general manager sees and cares about.  Sure, they need to take care of the sales force, but not at the total expense of customer service.  It IS in the general managers best interest to pursue best efforts in keeping customers happy.
> 
> If you've only spent time working in a sales organization, I can see how you would form the opinion you have.  Sit in the staff meeting of a general manager and you will get a completely different perspective on what is important to a top manager.


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## jlf58 (Jul 9, 2010)

I think they think, crap, we will make less money, thats all !! Anyone who expects anything to change is sadly mistaken. 



DanCali said:


> So what do you think will they do about the comments from Bill Marriott's blog?


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

Fletch said:


> I am not talking about owner service or sales. I am talking about people who decide this. Thanks but I have a very good prospective on all aspects in order to form this opinion.



Actually, I don't think you do.  I've been on the top management team of big companies making these decisions.  In fact, Marriott was one of my clients.  And, I've seen employees such as yourself making such claims on message boards.  So sure that they were right and couldn't be further from the truth.  I'm sure you are a great sales guy.  General manager, certainly not yet.


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## Luckybee (Jul 9, 2010)

Fletch said:


> I think they think, crap, we will make less money, thats all !! Anyone who expects anything to change is sadly mistaken.



Obviously you have a much more educated perspective than any of us here on the entire situation. What Im curious about is what do you think they might do if the points program does flop? In other words, if the discontent is such that they not only continue with the bad publicity from current owners but also new point sales go way down? Will they still say"crap...etc" as you indicated above? Or are they flexible enough to tweak the system then?


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## RedDogSD (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Actually, I don't think you do.  I've been on the top management team of big companies making these decisions.  In fact, Marriott was one of my clients.  And, I've seen employees such as yourself making such claims on message boards.  So sure that they were right and couldn't be further from the truth.  I'm sure you are a great sales guy.  General manager, certainly not yet.



Yeah, sorry Fletch, but I also consult to big companies management teams and they really care ALOT about brand equity.  In the Hotel business, Brand is everything.  They have a commodity product which is a square room with a bed inside.  Why do people pay more for a Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt than other brands, some of whom offer the same nice product.  Simple.  You associate the brand name with quality.  You associate the brand name with value.  When new Hotels open up in a city, if they are no-name brands...even if they are 4* hotels with great restaurants...they will have to spend a lot of time and money giving away their product for virtually nothing until they build a reputation.

Marriott lives on their reputation.  If their timeshare brand becomes worthless like the Wyndham brand (notice that the Worldmark brand remains seperate), they will be in trouble.


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## windje2000 (Jul 9, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> Yeah, sorry Fletch, but I also consult to big companies management teams and they really care ALOT about brand equity.  In the Hotel business, Brand is everything.  They have a commodity product which is a square room with a bed inside.  Why do people pay more for a Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt than other brands, some of whom offer the same nice product.  Simple.  You associate the brand name with quality.  You associate the brand name with value.  When new Hotels open up in a city, if they are no-name brands...even if they are 4* hotels with great restaurants...they will have to spend a lot of time and money giving away their product for virtually nothing until they build a reputation.
> 
> Marriott lives on their reputation.  If their timeshare brand becomes worthless like the Wyndham brand (notice that the Worldmark brand remains seperate), they will be in trouble.



I might temper that observation just a little as they have a captive customer base in the timeshare business, which is unlike the hotel/hospitality business.  

Its difficult to take $700MM write-off in the hotel business. You don't own the real property and are marketing your brand name and reservation system.  No question protecting brand equity is paramount there.

In the timeshare business, you have your customers by the b***s and when you have them by the b***s, their hearts and minds are sure to follow.

They may not think one business affects the that other much.  They may be right.  And they have a boat load of written down inventory to unload.  

I wonder if the best way to hedge is to buy the stock!


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 9, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> I might temper that observation just a little as they have a captive customer base in the timeshare business, which is unlike the hotel/hospitality business.
> 
> Its difficult to take $700MM write-off in the hotel business. You don't own the real property and are marketing your brand name and reservation system.  No question protecting brand equity is paramount there.
> 
> ...



Actually, it doesn't matter that it's associated with timesharing.  The fact that they are using the Marriott brand means that they need to protect it.

In fact, what Marriott is most known for is bringing some level of legitimacy to the timeshare business.  Many on this board may be disgusted with their current actions in points, but Marriott in fact successfully leveraged its brand into timesharing and became the biggest/second biggest timeshare company in the World.   It has tremendous brand equity.

If it indeed were true that this point system were going to damage the Marriott brand, top management would take immediate action.  Almost nothing else matters as much to that company.


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## jlf58 (Jul 9, 2010)

First off, there are no general managers in the vacation club upper management so please stop saying that. If they were a client of yours, I would think you know that. I am comfortable with my statement and for you to assume what I know and don't know, says alot about you since you don't know anything about me except that I am a salesman now. 
As far as you, glad you updated me on how high level you were because you couldn't tell it from your posts. Good to know .. 




BocaBum99 said:


> Actually, I don't think you do.  I've been on the top management team of big companies making these decisions.  In fact, Marriott was one of my clients.  And, I've seen employees such as yourself making such claims on message boards.  So sure that they were right and couldn't be further from the truth.  I'm sure you are a great sales guy.  General manager, certainly not yet.


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## jlf58 (Jul 9, 2010)

You certainly will see minor tweaks in the next year or so but there is no such thing as going back, thats for sure. 




Luckybee said:


> Obviously you have a much more educated perspective than any of us here on the entire situation. What Im curious about is what do you think they might do if the points program does flop? In other words, if the discontent is such that they not only continue with the bad publicity from current owners but also new point sales go way down? Will they still say"crap...etc" as you indicated above? Or are they flexible enough to tweak the system then?


----------



## jlf58 (Jul 9, 2010)

You are reading to much into this. All I said was the bottom line was money. I never said they don't care what thier owners think. They won't bring back ROFL because of cost, thats all I said. Not forever but for the next couple of years. You might see a steal taken now and than but thats about it. 





RedDogSD said:


> Yeah, sorry Fletch, but I also consult to big companies management teams and they really care ALOT about brand equity.  In the Hotel business, Brand is everything.  They have a commodity product which is a square room with a bed inside.  Why do people pay more for a Marriott/Hilton/Hyatt than other brands, some of whom offer the same nice product.  Simple.  You associate the brand name with quality.  You associate the brand name with value.  When new Hotels open up in a city, if they are no-name brands...even if they are 4* hotels with great restaurants...they will have to spend a lot of time and money giving away their product for virtually nothing until they build a reputation.
> 
> Marriott lives on their reputation.  If their timeshare brand becomes worthless like the Wyndham brand (notice that the Worldmark brand remains seperate), they will be in trouble.


----------



## windje2000 (Jul 9, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Actually, it doesn't matter that it's associated with timesharing.  The fact that they are using the Marriott brand means that they need to protect it.
> 
> In fact, what Marriott is most known for is bringing some level of legitimacy to the timeshare business.  Many on this board may be disgusted with their current actions in points, but Marriott in fact successfully leveraged its brand into timesharing and became the biggest/second biggest timeshare company in the World.   It has tremendous brand equity.
> 
> If it indeed were true that this point system were going to damage the Marriott brand, top management would take immediate action.  Almost nothing else matters as much to that company.



Time will tell.  I have no personal experience with them except as a customer.

But I will say this.  What's likely the very first thing anyone will want to know about a shift to points?  How many will I be allocated.  The second?  How many will be charged  for what I own.  

First impression for most - things that make you go . . . hmmmmm.  

IMHO - they would have been much better off saying a week is a week, but if you want days you pay extra for the privilege.

But I do think they have tarnished the brand.  And they do themselves no favors by not having a comprehensive one stop information source or ombudsman to at least make sure everyone is dealing with facts and hard information and not rumors and speculation or the self serving babble that comes from the mouths of sales staff.


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## Luckybee (Jul 9, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Time will tell.  I have no personal experience with them except as a customer.
> 
> But I will say this.  What's likely the very first thing anyone will want to know about a shift to points?  How many will I be allocated.  The second?  How many will be charged  for what I own.
> 
> ...



I absolutely agree with you on this. It would have made far more sense if they would have upted the ante for using points for single days(use of less than a week or over a week), checking in on a day other than standard days, upgrading views, size, seasons. From what I've seen on Tug, the Marriott blog, and my own conversations with Owner services the 2 biggest issues seem to be the points skim (reduction, breakage allowance or whatever one wishes to call it) and the inability to get the same "correct" answer from more than one person at Marriott that isnt coated with how wonderful the program is....until of course they're hit with the tough questions...which then inevitably leads to "the program wasnt meant for week owners" 
For us the voting issue is also a large problem but I strongly suspect for most it is a complete non starter.
It wouldnt have taken much for Marriott to have made a great program. Instead of the negative impact....can you imagine how good it would have been for sales if they had the internet buzzing with that info instead !


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 10, 2010)

Fletch said:


> First off, there are no general managers in the vacation club upper management so please stop saying that. If they were a client of yours, I would think you know that. I am comfortable with my statement and for you to assume what I know and don't know, says alot about you since you don't know anything about me except that I am a salesman now.
> As far as you, glad you updated me on how high level you were because you couldn't tell it from your posts. Good to know ..



I guess you do not know what a General Manager is.  Typically, a General Manager is the key executive who has total Profit and Loss responsibility for a business.  In the case of the Marriott Vacation Club International, that would be Stephen P. Weisz.

Here is the bio for Stephen Weisz:  Stephen Weisz Bio.


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## jlf58 (Jul 10, 2010)

Ah, yes I know Mr Weisz and have talked to him on a few occasions. He is a very impressive person. He is the President of MVCI. Sounds like you need to revisit the MVCI hierarchy titles.... just sayin 



BocaBum99 said:


> I guess you do not know what a General Manager is.  Typically, a General Manager is the key executive who has total Profit and Loss responsibility for a business.  In the case of the Marriott Vacation Club International, that would be Stephen P. Weisz.
> 
> Here is the bio for Stephen Weisz:  Stephen Weisz Bio.


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## m61376 (Jul 10, 2010)

Fletch said:


> So you think Marriott will all of a sudden create a budget for ROFR so some owners don't complain when they don't get into Hilton head ? The reality
> was most MVCI owners hated II and that never slowed business so , sorry, I disagree with you 100%. Its all about the number. They will do what's best for THEM, period. Thats how big buisness works !



I think you misunderstood what I posted. I never indicated that I expected Marriott to ROFR lots of weeks to get the inventory they need. I was referencing the large number of Maui, Marco, Ko'Olina, etc. weeks that are already in the trust and, that since if Marriott wants a week that is deposited in II for a points owner, that week traders may see those developer weeks placed in II as replacements for the weeks that Marriott takes from II to fulfill point requests. So I was musing that week owners may get those high point trades just by trading weeks and not need to convert to points and use the exorbitant point cost entailed.

It might be a side benefit to weeks owners using high demand weeks that Marriott has very little inventory of- because unless they ROFR and buy lots of weeks (which I don't think they will do, at least until they sell a lot of current inventory, and that may be a decade or so away), they will need to get that some of that inventory from weeks deposited in II and will have to give II something commensurate in return, which may very well be those nice weeks that they have lots of inventory in (such as Maui, Ko'Olina, Marco, etc). The circle completes when week owners, trading weeks in II, can now access that inventory.

I was just throwing that out as a possibility and musing whether it might be realistic.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 10, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I think you misunderstood what I posted. I never indicated that I expected Marriott to ROFR lots of weeks to get the inventory they need. I was referencing the large number of Maui, Marco, Ko'Olina, etc. weeks that are already in the trust and, that since if Marriott wants a week that is deposited in II for a points owner, that week traders may see those developer weeks placed in II as replacements for the weeks that Marriott takes from II to fulfill point requests. So I was musing that week owners may get those high point trades just by trading weeks and not need to convert to points and use the exorbitant point cost entailed.
> 
> It might be a side benefit to weeks owners using high demand weeks that Marriott has very little inventory of- because unless they ROFR and buy lots of weeks (which I don't think they will do, at least until they sell a lot of current inventory, and that may be a decade or so away), they will need to get that some of that inventory from weeks deposited in II and will have to give II something commensurate in return, which may very well be those nice weeks that they have lots of inventory in (such as Maui, Ko'Olina, Marco, etc). The circle completes when week owners, trading weeks in II, can now access that inventory.
> 
> I was just throwing that out as a possibility and musing whether it might be realistic.



Marriott will most likely have an inventory manager/executive who is accountable for optimizing the inventory in the Trust.  

Criteria for optimizing the Trust will include:

1) Forecasted sell off of points inventory vs. target.

2) Supply and demand forecast for Points/internal exchange owners.

3) Most severely out of stock weeks requiring re-acquisition

4) Sell off weeks needing off load to II and/or other rental venues

5) Expected weeks coming in through equity trade ins.

There will most likely be a budget for re-acquisitions that will optimize the above.  As is true with all businesses, profit maximization will be the objective.  But, to achieve it, management of some combination of the above will be built into someone's job description.  Moreover, an inventory manager with some foresight will have a target profile they want for inventory in the Trust over a long period of time and create multi-year metrics for getting there from where they are today.

The way that we as Tuggers can capitalize on the situation is to carefully watch the behavior of how the new system and the existing II system is delivering inventory.  And, by watching ROFR trends and equity trade in reports, we can figure out where the best opportunities lie and how to play them.


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## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

Sounds great but you are most likely wrong again. When they stopped ROFR there was no long explanation of what they would buy back and what they would not. Some VP simply said, we have no budget for that, don't buy anything back.





BocaBum99 said:


> Marriott will most likely have an inventory manager/executive who is accountable for optimizing the inventory in the Trust.
> 
> Criteria for optimizing the Trust will include:
> 
> ...


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## Fredm (Jul 11, 2010)

Fletch said:


> Sounds great but you are most likely wrong again. When they stopped ROFR there was no long explanation of what they would buy back and what they would not. Some VP simply said, we have no budget for that, don't buy anything back.



Marriott stopped exercising ROFR because of a company-wide capital expenditure freeze. This was caused by the credit market dislocations a couple of years ago. Marriott could not securitize their timeshare loans. Their capital was required to continue to finance sales on a much more limited basis.

The credit situation has since improved. However, terms are such that bundled loans are no longer providing an income stream to Marriott. 

I believe Marriott will do exactly what Boca suggests. 
We have no way of knowing what Marriott requires to manage its points inventory. They will do what is required to balance the inventory consistent with it functioning successfully. Somewhere in the mix will be the selective exercise of its ROFR. The what and when is beyond our ability to see.

Regarding the debate on Marriott's concern for profits vs existing customer satisfaction, they cannot be separated.
Of course Marriott has a huge stake in the overall integrity of its brand. But, MVCI cares about owner satisfaction because it is critical to sales performance and profitability. 

Every Project Director and Sales Manager knows that owner referrals close at ~50%. General tours close at < 20%. The profitability associated with owner generated tours is what makes or breaks overall sales performance.

Even at the sales rep level, given a choice there is not a single sales rep who would not prefer to tour an owner referral. That is why the most successful sales reps take good care of their owners. They want to benefit from the referrals generated. 

The notion that this new D Club does not care about making it a winner to its 400,000 + existing owners defies logic and common sense.
It is good for sales, good for profitability, good for brand integrity. Good for business, period. To think otherwise is a very narrow view of what makes Marriott, or any successful enterprise, tick.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

Fletch said:


> Sounds great but you are most likely wrong again. When they stopped ROFR there was no long explanation of what they would buy back and what they would not. Some VP simply said, we have no budget for that, don't buy anything back.



Have you ever managed a capital budget?  I have.  Do you think they will NEVER have a capital budget again?

It is possible that Marriott comes up with a reduced capital intensive method for inventory acquisition.  Or, it could do what Wyndham and Bluegreen are doing in fee for services.  But, since they created the Trust, that gets them into the inventory management business.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Marriott stopped exercising ROFR because of a company-wide capital expenditure freeze. This was caused by the credit market dislocations a couple of years ago. Marriott could not securitize their timeshare loans. Their capital was required to continue to finance sales on a much more limited basis.
> 
> The credit situation has since improved. However, terms are such that bundled loans are no longer providing an income stream to Marriott.
> 
> ...



It's refreshing to see someone who clearly understands the big picture.  You think like a general manager.


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## Fredm (Jul 11, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> It's refreshing to see someone who clearly understands the big picture.  You think like a general manager.



Just a business owner who knows where his bread is buttered.

Also, having worked at MVCI for some years, I do have some insight to what drives them.


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## winger (Jul 11, 2010)

Bill4728 said:


> I agree, IMHO, unless Marriott gets a whole bunch of people to join their system, t (OR aggressively acquire weeks) the trust will not have a lot of inventory and be a failure.


I agree Marriott must have as much availability as possible. Why join and wait for confirmations when you can do the same with the current II ?

I think they may have already started selective purchases from the resale market.  My Manor Club sales rep mentioned overnight, there were approx 60+ MMC platinum weeks and a couple of gold weeks that showed up in the Trust due to Marriott purchasing from owner's on MMC's resale 'wait list'.  

The question was any TUG'er  on the Manor Club resale wait list prior to June 20th, and if so has Marriott taken the week off your plate?


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## winger (Jul 11, 2010)

camachinist said:


> One reasonable question wrt this which remains IMO is will Marriott cook the back end of the reservation system to favor the trust? IOW, at any resort, in any peak period, their desired reservations for the trust will simply be executed first, before any 'external' owners reservations can be processed? ....


My sales rep has repeatedly alluded to this - weeks from deeded owners who deposit their weeks (to II) to receive Club points will do this through their specially Club (not pre-Club normal VOA) Marriott VOA, and that VOA will match up the deeded owner's week with pending Club requests first...before giving that week to II .  

IF this were true, yes, this amounts to 'cooking' the backend if there is such a thing and this is a better reason to join the Club.

Or this could all be BS on the part of my sales rep trying to make a sale.


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## camachinist (Jul 11, 2010)

For clarity, and I agree that the trust might and perhaps should operate in the best interest of its members with II, I meant that Marriott will cook the back end of the MVCI reservation system whereby they select out the prime weeks with their ownership and advantage of being the reservation system operator, at the expense of deeded weeks owners trying to reserve at their home resorts. I expanded upon that instinct elsewhere, so won't do it here.

Even with a ton of NCV points in the trust, I believe Marriott has a dearth of platinum weeks there, so will be watching that deeding activity closely. The county recorders office doesn't lie


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

camachinist said:


> Even with a ton of NCV points in the trust, I believe Marriott has a dearth of platinum weeks there, so will be watching that deeding activity closely. The county recorders office doesn't lie



What recording activity will there be to see? I think now that all deeds are conveyed to the land trust, all those deeds for NVC should now be deeded over to the trust and recorded. Now going forward it would seem that all deeds for points will be recorded in Orange County Florida, all deeds will just show the number of points purchased. Much like how DVC deeds points.

Or are you suggesting that they didn't deed all NCV weeks to the trust? This has been shown to happen at other resorts with some resorts with unsold inventory not being conveyed at all.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

winger said:


> I agree Marriott must have as much availability as possible. Why join and wait for confirmations when you can do the same with the current II ?
> 
> I think they may have already started selective purchases from the resale market.  My Manor Club sales rep mentioned overnight, there were approx 60+ MMC platinum weeks and a couple of gold weeks that showed up in the Trust due to Marriott purchasing from owner's on MMC's resale 'wait list'.
> 
> The question was any TUG'er  on the Manor Club resale wait list prior to June 20th, and if so has Marriott taken the week off your plate?



I do believe Marriott will do some to get advantage in II trades. However, one of the key points of my thesis of this thread is that it won't be enough.  The inventory needs to be in the Trust for the club to be viable long term.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

winger said:


> I agree Marriott must have as much availability as possible. Why join and wait for confirmations when you can do the same with the current II ?
> 
> I think they may have already started selective purchases from the resale market.  My Manor Club sales rep mentioned overnight, there were approx 60+ MMC platinum weeks and a couple of gold weeks that showed up in the Trust due to Marriott purchasing from owner's on MMC's resale 'wait list'.
> 
> The question was any TUG'er  on the Manor Club resale wait list prior to June 20th, and if so has Marriott taken the week off your plate?



If this can be independently verified.  This proves my thesis.  In fact, it's even more aggressive.  They are buying out inventory instead of simply exercising ROFR.


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## camachinist (Jul 11, 2010)

> Or are you suggesting that they didn't deed all NCV weeks to the trust? This has been shown to happen at other resorts with some resorts with unsold inventory not being conveyed at all.



I've seen deeding activity in the 'other' Orange County, which is where NCV is located, between Marriott and a Marriott trust (TR) subsequent to June 20. Next time I'm down there, I'll spend part of a day looking at the actual deeds. Information is a good thing. The people at the recorders office are very friendly. I dealt with them during the early stages of my divorce while accessing all my legal records.


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## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

I said I doubt they will start ROFR at this point, I didn't say forever. As far as you managing capital budgets, all I can say is WOW, good for you. 





BocaBum99 said:


> Have you ever managed a capital budget?  I have.  Do you think they will NEVER have a capital budget again?
> 
> It is possible that Marriott comes up with a reduced capital intensive method for inventory acquisition.  Or, it could do what Wyndham and Bluegreen are doing in fee for services.  But, since they created the Trust, that gets them into the inventory management business.


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## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

So lets see, now sales people tell the truth when we agree with what they say ?
geez, I was expecting her to say, "We could care less that we don't have Platinum Manor Club weeks ".... NOT 



BocaBum99 said:


> If this can be independently verified.  This proves my thesis.  In fact, it's even more aggressive.  They are buying out inventory instead of simply exercising ROFR.


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## m61376 (Jul 11, 2010)

winger said:


> My sales rep has repeatedly alluded to this - weeks from deeded owners who deposit their weeks (to II) to receive Club points will do this through their specially Club (not pre-Club normal VOA) Marriott VOA, and that VOA will match up the deeded owner's week with pending Club requests first...before giving that week to II .
> 
> IF this were true, yes, this amounts to 'cooking' the backend if there is such a thing and this is a better reason to join the Club.
> 
> Or this could all be BS on the part of my sales rep trying to make a sale.



Enrolled deeded owners will not be depositing their weeks to II to receive club points. They will either be depositing their weeks to II or exchanging with Marriott for club points. Marriott can use the weeks that deeded owners are exchanging in for club points to fulfill point owner requests, but weeks deposited into II have to be exchanged for something comparable- whether it is Marirott making the request (to fulfill a point owner's request) or another week owner looking for a trade.

Theoretically, according to what Marirott reps have stated and as per the posting on II's website, Marriott will be exchanging like everyone else. Whether or not they put a finger on the scales, so to speak, or "cook the back end" remains to be seen. I think we'd be foolish not to have an element of suspicion but, at the same time, we can't condemn them for their potential ability to act unfairly when they have yet to demonstrate it. I'm guessing there will be lots of scrutiny there. IF Marriott is good at its own word, then trading in II via weeks should show little change in the coming months and years. Time will tell....


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## AUtigerfan (Jul 11, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Enrolled deeded owners will not be depositing their weeks to II to receive club points. They will either be depositing their weeks to II or exchanging with Marriott for club points. Marriott can use the weeks that deeded owners are exchanging in for club points to fulfill point owner requests, but weeks deposited into II have to be exchanged for something comparable- whether it is Marirott making the request (to fulfill a point owner's request) or another week owner looking for a trade...



Are float week owners booking a week and then exchanging that week for club points, or do they just call Marriott and say "I want points for next years gold season floating week".  Marriott could then pick a coveted week for the points because they control reservations, inventory, etc.


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## hotcoffee (Jul 11, 2010)

AUtigerfan said:


> Are float week owners booking a week and then exchanging that week for club points, or do they just call Marriott and say "I want points for next years gold season floating week".  Marriott could then pick a coveted week for the points because they control reservations, inventory, etc.



My understanding is that we do not reserve our week prior to trading for points.  Marriott will decide which week to reserve (probably based upon what exchangers are looking for).


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## m61376 (Jul 11, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> My understanding is that we do not reserve our week prior to trading for points.  Marriott will decide which week to reserve (probably based upon what exchangers are looking for).



You are correct in that you do not make a weeks reservation when you are converting.

Marriott has stated that their policy is to allow an equal distribution of each week in each inventory pool, according to the percentage of units in each pool. So- week owners will be competing with other week users according to the week percentage of ownership, and similarly for point owners. Marriott has assured me that they will not commandeer a disproportionate number of premium weeks in the season. They have stated it is similar to what they currently do now when owners turn weeks in for points- they distribute that inventory over the season and don't just grab the best weeks because they can. They appear committed to making this part of the process, at least, equitable.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> My understanding is that we do not reserve our week prior to trading for points.  Marriott will decide which week to reserve (probably based upon what exchangers are looking for).



Marriott won't pick or reserve a week. If you convert your gold week at resort X to points. Marriott now knows it has a gold week at resort X for points inventory. Now when someone calls in to reserve in to resort X for gold season using points, Marriott confirms that and takes the week out of available points inventory.


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## jlf58 (Jul 11, 2010)

Boca,

You made my day. He agrees with you so clearly he is right, that's classic. I also learned what a "take a way is " today. Keep teaching us, can we do "trial closes" tomorrow ?  That always sounded to legal for me .. 



BocaBum99 said:


> It's refreshing to see someone who clearly understands the big picture.  You think like a general manager.


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## camachinist (Jul 11, 2010)

> Marriott won't pick or reserve a week. If you convert your gold week at resort X to points. Marriott now knows it has a gold week at resort X for points inventory. Now when someone calls in to reserve in to resort X for gold season using points, Marriott confirms that and takes the week out of available points inventory.


Assuming a the 'deposited' week is unreserved within a floating season, how exactly does Marriott go about giving the ultimate requestor of that day/week their exact dates? What happens if all villas are reserved for those dates? I guess it would return 'unsuccessful sell' like MARSHA does. Any guidance here? 

Here's a scenario. I just reserved a killer week, this week, next year at NCV. I caved and enrolled my developer weeks into DCP next week. I decided, wth, I'm going to deposit that week into points (before September 30th, right?) and maximize the flexibility of the points system for 2011. When Marriott takes that week, they of course cancel my reservation in MVCI's system (perhaps it will show as 'exchange' or 'deposit for points') and in MARSHA. But, do they really cancel the reservation at the resort and place those days (DCP is about use periods, not weeks) into the 'trust account' as random platinum season days, relevant to total available days but not any specific days? How would this affect a deeded week owner looking for that July reservation. Would they see it? Unlikely. Why? Interesting. 

Help me understand this better....


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

camachinist said:


> Help me understand this better....



When converting to points the reserved week is canceled. That week that was reserved and now canceled is available to anyone eligible to reserve that time, either because they have enough points or they own in the same season as the canceled week. That week isn't "saved" for points use or weeks use. First come first serve based on availability.


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## camachinist (Jul 11, 2010)

Yes, so, who gets it, the points owner waitlisted or the deeded owner looking at his or her calendar? Interesting...... and look at who controls both 

BTW, the answer is the waitlisted points owner...

Edited to add that, at a resort where the trust apparently 'owns' few Platinum weeks, and where deeded owners rarely release in-demand summer reservations, this dynamic, in light of requests, could be substantial reason for Marriott to pursue acquiring more platinum weeks in the secondary markets. I suspect such micro-conditions exist at certain other resorts as well. It'll be interesting to follow the trustee sales and ROFR activity moving forward.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

I agree that it will go to the point waitlist first. However if no waitlist exists, it goes to who calls in first.


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## camachinist (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks for that. I'll pursue that nuance in another thread, as it's OT here.


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## winger (Jul 11, 2010)

josh1231 said:


> Really, they only need as much inventory as people they have join the system. They have significant inventory at almost all properties, and if only 15 people join the points program, they only need enough inventory for those 15 people, and those 15 people by definition have deposited their weeks, so therefore they have enough inventory for those people. Their additional unsold inventory is going to be above and beyond what people are actually trading in to book.
> 
> When you also consider that the 15 people who deposited their week for points, only have enough points to reserve 13 of those weeks, you have even less need for additional inventory.


But you have to take into consideration all the new purchasers of points, who have NOTHING to deposit week-wise. MVC needs to already have good inventory to satisfy these new members.  Imagine a new customer paying upwards of $60,000+ worth in points (that's what a week in a 2-BD Maui or Ko Olina ocean view requires in points during high season) and NOT have easy-to-obtain inventory.  He will be one unhappy new customer.


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## taffy19 (Jul 11, 2010)

winger said:


> But you have to take into consideration all the new purchasers of points, who have NOTHING to deposit week-wise. MVC needs to already have good inventory to satisfy these new members. Imagine a new customer paying upwards of $60,000+ worth in points (that's what a week in a 2-BD Maui or Ko Olina ocean view requires in points during high season) and NOT have easy-to-obtain inventory. He will be one unhappy new customer.


Exactly, the writing is on the wall. If present owners are not signing up right away, Marriott may have to charge less rather than more in the future to enroll or give more incentives. They need the inventory at the sold out resorts in prime locations and certainly the platinum season. They don't seem to have that in their inventory, I believe. I wouldn't believe all the scare tactics that you hear at the presentations nor do I believe that people are signing up in droves.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Enrolled deeded owners will not be depositing their weeks to II to receive club points. They will either be depositing their weeks to II or exchanging with Marriott for club points. Marriott can use the weeks that deeded owners are exchanging in for club points to fulfill point owner requests, but weeks deposited into II have to be exchanged for something comparable- whether it is Marirott making the request (to fulfill a point owner's request) or another week owner looking for a trade.
> 
> Theoretically, according to what Marirott reps have stated and as per the posting on II's website, Marriott will be exchanging like everyone else. Whether or not they put a finger on the scales, so to speak, or "cook the back end" remains to be seen. I think we'd be foolish not to have an element of suspicion but, at the same time, we can't condemn them for their potential ability to act unfairly when they have yet to demonstrate it. I'm guessing there will be lots of scrutiny there. IF Marriott is good at its own word, then trading in II via weeks should show little change in the coming months and years. Time will tell....



I agree.  Giving Marriott the benefit of the doubt, I think they will conclude that owning the inventory in the Trust will be the best method of delivering availability to owners.  My whole thesis relies on this assumption.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

camachinist said:


> For clarity, and I agree that the trust might and perhaps should operate in the best interest of its members with II, I meant that Marriott will cook the back end of the MVCI reservation system whereby they select out the prime weeks with their ownership and advantage of being the reservation system operator, at the expense of deeded weeks owners trying to reserve at their home resorts. I expanded upon that instinct elsewhere, so won't do it here.
> 
> Even with a ton of NCV points in the trust, I believe Marriott has a dearth of platinum weeks there, so will be watching that deeding activity closely. The county recorders office doesn't lie



I think there will be an extraordinary temptation to do so.  However, I believe that Marriott will be at least somewhat restrained in dipping into that pot.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> What recording activity will there be to see? I think now that all deeds are conveyed to the land trust, all those deeds for NVC should now be deeded over to the trust and recorded. Now going forward it would seem that all deeds for points will be recorded in Orange County Florida, all deeds will just show the number of points purchased. Much like how DVC deeds points.
> 
> Or are you suggesting that they didn't deed all NCV weeks to the trust? This has been shown to happen at other resorts with some resorts with unsold inventory not being conveyed at all.



I haven't seen the Trust documents yet.  But, I have seen other Trust documents that are based on the Florida multi-site timeshare plan statute.  If the Trust was incorporated in Florida, that is the statute it must follow.

In the case that I am most familiar, the deeds are recorded in the counties where the timeshare is located into the name of the Trust.  Then, it's really just a database entry in a system to change ownership.

One of the things I haven't done yet is learned how those points will be conveyed.  Will they be conveyed via a recorded deed such as a UDI?  Or, just a right to use document?  My guess is it will be a perpetual right to use contract of some type.


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## dioxide45 (Jul 11, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> One of the things I haven't done yet is learned how those points will be conveyed.  Will they be conveyed via a recorded deed such as a UDI?  Or, just a right to use document?  My guess is it will be a perpetual right to use contract of some type.



Marriott is still selling "deeded ownership". I remember seeing that on their website even after June 20. I believe in Florida a timeshare interest must be deeded. DVC is deeded, not RTU as many think.

In the counties where the resorts are located, the deeds were likely recorded to transfer the ownership to the trust. Marriott filed the trust agreement and notices in Orange Co Florida. All deed of points going forward will be recorded there I would suspect since that is where the land trust exists.

I have posted the trust document links in the forum, so they are there to see.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott is still selling "deeded ownership". I remember seeing that on their website even after June 20. I believe in Florida a timeshare interest must be deeded. DVC is deeded, not RTU as many think.
> 
> In the counties where the resorts are located, the deeds were likely recorded to transfer the ownership to the trust. Marriott filed the trust agreement and notices in Orange Co Florida. All deed of points going forward will be recorded there I would suspect since that is where the land trust exists.
> 
> I have posted the trust document links in the forum, so they are there to see.



Thanks.  I'll check them out when I get a chance.  

You do NOT need to have a deeded interest to sell a multi-site timeshare plan in Florida.  The Bluegreen Vacation Club does NOT convey deeds as their points.  Points are based on an underlying deed.  But, the deed is recorded in the name of the Trust.

So, how do they convey a deed which is not deeded at a specific resort?  It's easy for DVC to do it because the deed just reads something like 500 of 2,345,545 Undivided Interest in XYZ Resort.  Since there are a fixed number of units, they can easily do such a thing.  How do you do that with a points Club with inventory that changes on a daily basis?


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## camachinist (Jul 11, 2010)

Yes, I noted about 160 deeds recorded at the OC recorders office (California) to individual purchasers as well as to the Trust, between 6/20 and 6/29 ( I checked on July 5). There were grant deeds, trust deeds (financing) and recissions, as well as the deeds to the 'Trust'.  I'll research and update my numbers tomorrow. As is usual, I cannot see any underlying data other than names, so will have to visit in person to see exactly what's been deeded. 

When we bought at NCV, the stamp from the recorder's office indicated the document was recorded two days hence. Bought on Saturday, recorded on Monday. That would indicate to me that NCV is (or was) still selling deeded weeks after 6/20. Just another datapoint. Since NCV is one of the largest points contributors to the Trust, it'll be interesting to see where those weeks are coming from, season-wise.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

This discussion begs a question about how points combine.  Let's say you purchase 1000 points and then later purchase another 3000 points.  Do you have to sell each set of points separately?

WorldMark allows you to sell parts of the combined.  Wyndham requires you to sell it based on contract.


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## m61376 (Jul 12, 2010)

camachinist- Although I believe the temptation will be there to grab that high demand week to fulfill the point request, Marriott has committed to only allocating the fair share of each available week to each inventory pool, based on the percent ownership of each pool. So theoretically since it was part of the weeks pool it should remain available for a weeks owner's reservation. 

It would be interesting for someone who hasn't booked yet to frequently check the on-line reservation website and see if prime weeks pop back up. I know in the past arrival dates were fully booked (show as not available) and then there are cancellations so they reappear here and there. If we continue to see this pattern it would verify what I've been told.


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## timeos2 (Jul 12, 2010)

*There is no property deeded to anyone other than Disney*



dioxide45 said:


> Marriott is still selling "deeded ownership". I remember seeing that on their website even after June 20. I believe in Florida a timeshare interest must be deeded. DVC is deeded, not RTU as many think.
> .



Actually it is a deeded RTU!  They are not transferring any property rights but they are using a rather convoluted process to deed the 40+ years of use rights, basically your promise to pay fees, while they retain 100% control and ownership.  What does confuse people is that deed which many mistakenly think means they "own" part of the rodent empire. They do not. 

Pretty clever though as it makes it all sound like a regular old timeshare deeded sale like any other when in fact it is a carefully crafted, long term lease.  You really have to admire Disney as they may be the very best at creating the illusion people want to believe from Main St USA to the selling of an otherwise tainted product like timeshare.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 12, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> Actually it is a deeded RTU!  They are not transferring any property rights but they are using a rather convoluted process to deed the 40+ years of use rights, basically your promise to pay fees, while they retain 100% control and ownership.  What does confuse people is that deed which many mistakenly think means they "own" part of the rodent empire. They do not.
> 
> Pretty clever though as it makes it all sound like a regular old timeshare deeded sale like any other when in fact it is a carefully crafted, long term lease.  You really have to admire Disney as they may be the very best at creating the illusion people want to believe from Main St USA to the selling of an otherwise tainted product like timeshare.



Really?  I thought it would simply be deeded as a leasehold instead of fee simple ownership.


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## camachinist (Jul 12, 2010)

> It would be interesting for someone who hasn't booked yet to frequently check the on-line reservation website and see if prime weeks pop back up.



Thanks. Good suggestion. I've still been unsuccessful with my plat NCV for 2011 summer so will add it to my load of trade tests done 3 times a day and will report any movements. I recently saw a June 2011 date pop back up on my calendar, last Friday I believe, while I was attempting to book NCV in July 2011, erroneously using the inventory release calendar as guidance (covered in another thread). I had never seen that happen in Platinum season as long as I've been an owner (6 years). 

I'm checking right now.... OK, as a baseline, the only bookable date in Platinum season at NCV as of this post time is June 10, a decrease of one day. June 5 was there when I checked last Friday.


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## MikeM132 (Jul 12, 2010)

timeos2 said:


> ............which many mistakenly think means they "own" part of the rodent empire. They do not.
> 
> ...............



Sorry, but "rodent empire" cracks me up! Thanks, too...I never figured out how that DVC thing actually worked. Not that I was concerned (as in other RTU timeshares I've toured like in the Poconos, where I was concerned the company would fold leaving me with a useless RTU).


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