# Vistana Update from Marriott Insider



## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

*Please be aware:  Posts that attack this info will be deleted.  This is not the COVID Forum!

INSIDER:  *I read TUG a bit, and just to clarify, Mandatory is no longer a status because VSN is dismantled. Everything is now Abound and therefore what was both mandatory and non mandatory are not in Abound unless they buy additional DP's. The simple reason was mandatory was a status in VSN but that program is gone. Anyone who buys Mandatory [after 8/8] will only be able to use the program they bought, not the full 23 resorts. We will continue to sell Vistana inventory until we run out which in Westin Flex and Nanea's case, will be sooner rather than later. Booking in Abound will start 2023 usage and either late September or early October. I hope that helps

*DeniseM:  *Interesting - please give me an example of how that will work - I own the following:
2 bdm. Westin Ka'anapali (developer/mandatory)
2 bdm. Kierland Villas (resale/mandatory)
1 & 2 bdm. Sheraton Desert Oasis (resale/voluntary/not requalified)

*INSIDER:*

• Anything purchased before 8/8 that was mandatory, [had Staroptions] will be put in Abound.

• It must be purchased and already in the Vistana system by 8/8. That part can take 45 days, if you have a deed before 8/8 but it wasn't registered with Vistana by 8/8  it would not count

• Voluntary deeds purchased before 8/8 would have had to be put in VSN meaning bought extra to get Abound. (Requalified before 8/8 or buy additional deeds from Marriott after 8/8.)

• So both of your Mandatory deeds, regardless of how you bought, will be in.

• I assume you didn't spend extra to put SDO in so it's not in Abound.

• The point is ANYONE who buys what they think is mandatory, after 8/8 even if they are in the process, will only be able to use home resort or resorts. VSN is no more. Madatory was a term for VSN, VSN is officially expired.


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## Mowogo (Aug 20, 2022)

Will be interesting to see the changes that come, since the full sun setting of VSN is not something we were expecting.  Though should be some good trader opportunities to purchase resale when everything settles out after.


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## Erinaadyn (Aug 20, 2022)

Does your insider have any information on what’s happening with Harborside ownerships that we bought from the developer?


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## cubigbird (Aug 20, 2022)

I thought Mandatory was part of the legal CC&R of that resort.  How can they just do away with it?


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 20, 2022)

Interesting info if true. My quick take:

So they passify most existing mandatory owners by auto-enrolling them in Abound so they can trade into a larger pool of properties and give the high value WKORV and N one of the highest values in the system to incent Vistana deposits.

This enables MVC to reduce IT by eliminating the Vistana booking system.

But what many owners won't realize is that this move devalues resale values of mandatory by killing mandatory being passed on to the new buyer. This will benefit MVC by lowering resale prices making it less costly for them to ROFR into Abound. This will especially affect IV and some OV. Some of the prime OF VOIs will end up like MOC OF Towers which still have high resale but don't participate in the Abound system over time. Such owners will rent or trade in Interval.

Since I read that Kierland (and possibly SVV and St John mandatory?) have lower points values in Abound than Staroptions. I wonder how those owners will react to not being able to use StarOptions to trade? Those that bought these VOIs specifically to trade in SOs appear to lose out.

Still wondering if they can legally shut-down VSN since it is written into the CC&Rs. Perhaps they are getting around this by offering Abound trading as a VSN substitute. But how are they disabling the VSN feature to offer a trading system to all mandatory owners including resale deeds as written in the CC&Rs? Perhaps they plan to ROFR as much as possible so they can mute mandatory by burying them into the trust?


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## jabberwocky (Aug 20, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> I thought Mandatory was part of the legal T&C of that resort.  How can they just do away with it?


I agree with you - Mandatory resorts have to be part of the “club”, but it doesn’t state that it has to be VSN - it could be Abound if you read it liberally. There are a few logical issues I have with what is being suggested. But since I don’t want to risk this post being sent to the memory hole I’ll not state them.


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

My first thought was Marriott's sales strategy since the soft launch five months ago has been telling owners of unqualified mandatory resales that they had to requalify in order to participate in Abound, which probably lead to million(s) dollars of sales. If what we just read is true and there was never a need to make an additional purchase, then all of those people who purchased as a result were mislead and likely have some type of legal recourse against the company for potential fraud. The SEC also takes a dim view of fraudulent activities by a publicly traded company. This should be interesting!


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 20, 2022)

@kozykritter Wouldn't be the first time a sales person lied or stretched the truth. There is a clause in the contract that the contract supercedes all verbal representations so this will go nowhere legally.


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> I thought Mandatory was part of the legal T&C of that resort. How can they just do away with it?



Nope - it was only part of the "Vacation Club," created by Starwood. Remember, a lot of deeds were actually sold pre-Starwood ownership, by other resort developers.


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> @kozykritter Wouldn't be the first time a sales person lied or stretched the truth. There is a clause in the contract that the contract supercedes all verbal representations so this will go nowhere legally.


I don't agree. Think RICO. Where there is a concerted organized effort to defraud or perpetrate fraud. I'm not saying that MVW has done that but contract language won't save you if your actions are fraudulent on their face. Otherwise organized crime would use a tool like that to avoid prosecution.

You don't imagine that one of MVW's corporate sales strategies was to get unqualified Vistana owners to requalify using Abound as the carrot? All an attorney would have to do is establish a prima facie case and get to the initial discovery phase where they could request all those corporate and local sales strategy documents. Again, not saying it is fraud but that is how litigation works in these United States.


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

Erinaadyn said:


> Does your insider have any information on what’s happening with Harborside ownerships that we bought from the developer?



The info posted above applies to all former Vistana resorts - "mandatory" resorts will automatically be in Abound.


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## cubigbird (Aug 20, 2022)

So then if what the insider is saying that they are essentially doing away with VSN / dismantling it, how would one exchange internally within VSN resorts if they choose not elect to elect in Abound? I thought Abound was just an overlay program?


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

Erinaadyn said:


> Does your insider have any information on what’s happening with Harborside ownerships that we bought from the developer?


What the insider said was that all properties that were in VSN as of August 8th would automatically be placed in Abound instead. That would include developer-purchased Harborside.


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

Abound, or external exchange companies like II and RCI.


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## Red elephant (Aug 20, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> So then if what the insider is saying that they are essentially doing away with VSN / dismantling it, how would one exchange internally within VSN resorts if they choose not elect to elect in Abound? I thought Abound was just an overlay program?


This is the question I have  for those of us  not planning to enroll in Abound but want to continue using staroptions in VSN.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> I don't agree. Think RICO. Where there is a concerted organized effort to defraud or perpetrate fraud. I'm not saying that MVW has done that but contract language won't save you if your actions are fraudulent on their face. Otherwise organized crime would use a tool like that to avoid prosecution.



Well...to use your logic, I presume the $18 million rescinded by timeshare buyers after finding by TUG  and the millions more who were stuck past rescission were not told the truth by sales so can file a class action suit?


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

> This is the question I have for those of us not planning to enroll in Abound but want to continue using staroptions in VSN.



I think it's pretty clear that Staroptions and VSN are going to be history, once Abound kicks in.

But if you had Staroptions before (mandatory resort) then you will be able to trade in Abound.

If you didn't have Staroptions before, (voluntary resort) then nothing has really changed.


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Well...to use your logic, I presume the $18 million rescinded by timeshare buyers after finding by TUG  and the millions more who were stuck past rescission were not told the truth by sales so can file a class action suit?


That is not a concerted corporate strategy like I was mentioning.  Not going to argue this with you. Just how litigation works.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 20, 2022)

We'll just agree to disagree. This is an industry-wide strategy.


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## cubigbird (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> I think it's pretty clear that Staroptions and VSN are going to be history, once Abound kicks in.
> 
> But if you had Staroptions before (mandatory resort) then you will be able to trade in Abound.
> 
> If you didn't have Staroptions before, (voluntary resort) then nothing has really changed.



@DeniseM My VOIs are all qualified.  But what if I don’t want to trade in Abound, and be subject to a “skim”  over there?  What if I want to take my week of staroptions, 148,100 for example, and book a week at another VSE resort?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> Please be aware: Posts that attack this info will be deleted. This is not the COVID Forum!


I'm sorry, but why is this information from yet another "respected source" not open to the scrutiny that any other information provided by others is? This is a discussion forum after all. Why is your information somehow protected?


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## Red elephant (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> I think it's pretty clear that Staroptions and VSN are going to be history, once Abound kicks in.
> 
> But if you had Staroptions before (mandatory resort) then you will be able to trade in Abound.
> 
> If you didn't have Staroptions before, (voluntary resort) then nothing has really changed.


Actually this is not clear at all. I thought enrolling in Abound was optional .


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> *Please be aware:  Posts that attack this info will be deleted.  This is not the COVID Forum!
> 
> INSIDER:  *I read TUG a bit, and just to clarify, Mandatory is no longer a status because VSN is dismantled. Everything is now Abound and therefore what was both mandatory and non mandatory are not in Abound unless they buy additional DP's. The simple reason was mandatory was a status in VSN but that program is gone. Anyone who buys Mandatory [after 8/8] will only be able to use the program they bought, not the full 23 resorts. We will continue to sell Vistana inventory until we run out which in Westin Flex and Nanea's case, will be sooner rather than later. Booking in Abound will start 2023 usage and either late September or early October. I hope that helps
> 
> ...


That part I find hard to swallow is that they could change the nature of how a resale mandatory ownership can be used without notifying all current owners of such properties before or on the date that they changed it! To allow people to go on making resale purchases thinking they would have StarOptions and access to 22 other properties. Might be legal but certainly is ethically questionable.


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## Red elephant (Aug 20, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> @DeniseM My VOIs are all qualified.  But what if I don’t want to trade in Abound?  What if I want to take my week of staroptions, 148,100 for example, and book a week at another VSE resort?


My thoughts exactly .


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

What appears to be happening is the StarOptions exchange function will still used among those properties in the VSN as of 8/8 but that process will now happen within the Abound exchange platform, still using StarOptions. That would make the most sense since we've been told that converting to DP is a usage option for our ownership and that the internal Vistana system of exchanging wouldn't change. To be able to do the StarOption exchange and DP conversion functions for the same ownership would be most effective if done within the same IT platform. This moving of the system to the Abound platform would explain these frequent planned and unplanned outages.


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## Red elephant (Aug 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> It might be the case where StarOptions are still used among those properties in the VSN as of 8/8 but that process will now happen within the Abound exchange, still using StarOptions. That would make the most sense since converting to DP has been told to us as a usage option for our ownership and that the internal Vistana system of exchanging wouldn't change.


I certainly hope so.


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## Dawnwrey (Aug 20, 2022)

I have a question that I don’t think has been addressed. If we own WSJ and it was purchased from the developer (Coral Vista, therefore voluntary but able to use star options as original owner), will we be part of Abound without additional purchase?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 20, 2022)

Dawnwrey said:


> I have a question that I don’t think has been addressed. If we own WSJ and it was purchased from the developer (Coral Vista, therefore voluntary but able to use star options as original owner), will we be part of Abound without additional purchase?


According to the information provided in the OP, it would be included. Voluntary is really only something that applies to resales.


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

From the original post:  





> • Anything purchased before 8/8 that was *mandatory*, will be put in Abound.



In other words, if your week *had Staroptions before 8/8*, it will automatically be enrolled in Abound.


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I'm sorry, but why is this information from yet another "respected source" not open to the scrutiny that any other information provided by others is? This is a discussion forum after all. Why is your information somehow protected?



The key word is "attack."  The last time I posted "insider" info, there were some nasty posts directed at the insider by people who had no idea what they were even talking about.  I expect a spirited debate about the upcoming changes, but attacking the source (or me), because you don't like the upcoming changes is just stupid.

Did you notice how long it's been since I posted info about this?  It's because some people acted like jack asses last time.

Don't shoot the messenger!


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## VacationForever (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> From the original post:
> 
> In other words, if your week *had Staroptions before 8/8*, it will automatically be enrolled in Abound.


Will these resales weeks qualify for elite status?


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

Isn't "Elite Status," a Vistana concept?


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## jabberwocky (Aug 20, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> Will these resales weeks qualify for elite status?


They should. In our owner profile they were included in our total Abound point values


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

Update on questions asked above. 

*INSIDER: *BTW, every *VSN member* is enrolled in Abound. You decide if you want to use it but you WILL be paying the new ABOUND fee in place of the VSN fee regardless of whether you use Abound or just use your Vistana week.

 [Definition:  *VSN members* own deeds with Staroptions.]


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> Update on questions asked above.  (Definition:  *VSN members* own deeds with Staroptions.)
> 
> *INSIDER: *BTW, every *VSN member* is enrolled in Abound. You decide if you want to use it but you WILL be paying the new ABOUND fee in place of the VSN fee regardless of whether you use Abound or just use your Vistana week.


Yes, they would have to be enrolled automatically since the StarOption internal exchange feature is moving to the Abound platform. Makes sense!


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

@kozykritter - It's the same with the current VSN membership:  If you own a week with Staroptions, you are automatically enrolled, but no one forces you to use it.


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## VacationForever (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> Isn't "Elite Status," a Vistana concept?


MVC calls elite status ownership level, i.e. owner, select, executive, presidential and chairman's club.  Still the same question, will these resale mandatory weeks owned before 8/8 qualify for elite/ownership level?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> @kozykritter - It's the same with the current VSN membership:  If you own a week with Staroptions, you are automatically enrolled, but no one forces you to use it.


It sounds like you are kind of forced. The only option going forward is to use Abound points or your home resort week. No option for StarOptions there from what I read from the insider. How will they handle HomeOption reservations at a home resort? Not everyone bought something nice and even to book a single week in a single unit. I doubt they would force them into the Abound point charts and eliminate the StarOption chart.


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## ocdb8r (Aug 20, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> I agree with you - Mandatory resorts have to be part of the “club”, but it doesn’t state that it has to be VSN - it could be Abound if you read it liberally. There are a few logical issues I have with what is being suggested. But since I don’t want to risk this post being sent to the memory hole I’ll not state them.


Agreed - this was discussed way back when.... here: https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/mandatory-resorts-must-they-really-be-in-the-network.294047/

To me, the bottom line is:

a) nothing forces "the Club" (Vistana East Vacation Club) to continue to use VSN as "the Network" - such affiliation is a result of a Network Affiliation Agreement, which presumably can be terminated (say if "the Network" a.k.a. VSN decided to cease operating);

b) given MVC now owns/controls the network it could easily decide to terminate the Network Affiliation Agreement;

c) even if it decided to continue with the Network Affiliation Agreement, it completely controls "the Network" and can change it's rules, regulations and procedures as it sees fit; and

d) it doesn't even need to change the existing rules to change the "points" values assigned to any VOI as The Vistana East Vacation Club docs and Vistana Signature Network docs make clear:

_Club Operator also reserves the right to revise the assignment of Club Points based on the Assignment Factors. As a consequence, *the relative reservation power of Club Points in the Club may vary from the relative reservation power of StarOptions in the Network in the future*. 

The number of StarOptions assigned represents the reservation power of a given Vacation Ownership Interest within the Network is based on such
factors as relative Network Member demand for the particular Network Resort, seasonality of the VOI, Unit type assigned to the VOI Use Rights
associated with the VOI, Network Resort type, Network Member use patterns, and availability of Vacation Periods for reservation at the
particular Network Resort ("Assignment Factors"). *Network Operator reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to revise the number of
StarOptions required for reservations within the Network annually, each without Network Member consent*. _

So there isn't even a need to get rid of "VSN" so to speak; they could simply amend references to "StarOptions" or "Club Points" to mean "Abound Points" and use the existing power in the existing agreements to completely change the point values.



dioxide45 said:


> It sounds like you are kind of forced. The only option going forward is to use Abound points or your home resort week. No option for StarOptions there from what I read from the insider. How will they handle HomeOption reservations at a home resort? Not everyone bought something nice and even to book a single week in a single unit. I doubt they would force them into the Abound point charts and eliminate the StarOption chart.



They will likely have to maintain a "HomeOption" chart in line with the ownership interests baked into various trusts.  While those charts were aligned with the existing VSN charts, nothing requires VSN or the VSN charts to continue (the HomeOption charts will continue as standalone guidance for use of those who own "HomeOptions").


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

@dioxide45:  Per the info above - everyone will still be able to make *home resort reservations* - if you own a flex program, you just have more then one home resort.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> @dioxide45:  Per the info above - everyone will still be able to make *home resort reservations* - if you own a flex program, you just have more then one home resort.


But what chart are those reservations based on? The StarOption chart or Abound point values?


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## jabberwocky (Aug 20, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But what chart are those reservations based on? The StarOption chart or Abound point values?


And what happens to those of us with points banked into 2024?  Do we just lose them?


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

> But what chart are those reservations based on? The StarOption chart or Abound point values?


  Don't know yet.


> And what happens to those of us with points banked into 2024? Do we just lose them?


  Why would you lose them? - everything is just going to roll over to Abound.  But the exact details of HOW, have not been released yet.
.
These are all very good questions, and I will post the answers, as I get more info


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## cubigbird (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> @dioxide45:  Per the info above - everyone will still be able to make *home resort reservations* - if you own a flex program, you just have more then one home resort.



Let’s use WKV as an example.  If I don’t want to use my home resort week at Kierland and instead I want to go to say, Westin Lagunamar.  Under VSN, I have staroptions.  I can book that WLR at 8 months out.  Under Abound, under the same example, I would now be forced to trade in Abound, thus subject to the skim?  I can’t just exchange within Vistana resorts?  I thought VSN was still going to exist with Abound as just an overlay?  From what has been posted it looks  like that now won’t be the case?


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

I think we might be going off the rails a bit here!  StarOptions are not going away and will still be the currency for internal exchanges within the Vistana resorts. The exchange system is moving to the Abound IT platform and that will then make it easy to convert your ownership to DP/Abound points for use with MVC properties if you so choose.  You will still pay a club fee but it will be the new combined fee that includes banking, etc. We won't be losing anything we already have, just gaining new options and simplifying the fee structure. It's what we've been told all along.


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## alexinorlando (Aug 20, 2022)

Denise,

Did your contact mention anything about flex resale purchased before or after the deadline?


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

This rule applies to all types of ownerships:  If you had Staroptions before 8/8, your ownership will automatically be enrolled in Abound.  

But we don't know the exact details of that conversion, yet.


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## cubigbird (Aug 20, 2022)

@Denise Your insider eludes to VSN being dismantled.  Can you get clarification on what that means?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> I think we might be going off the rails a bit here!  StarOptions are not going away and will still be the currency for internal exchanges within the Vistana resorts. The exchange system is moving to the Abound IT platform and that will then make it easy to convert your ownership to DP/Abound points for use with MVC properties if you so choose.  You will still pay a club fee but it will be the new combined fee that includes banking, etc. We won't be losing anything we already have, just gaining new options and simplifying the fee structure. It's what we've been told all along.


But to simply say "VSN is dismantled" would lead many to a different interpretation. One can't simply say "VSN is dismantled" without any additional context.


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But to simply say "VSN is dismantled" would lead many to a different interpretation. One can't simply say "VSN is dismantled" without any additional context.


Agreed. Wars have been started for less inflammatory statements!


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

@cubigbird - The exact details of the conversion of VSN to Abound have not been announced - not even internally.


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

It might be helpful to think of it this way:

-MVC is renaming its internal exchange program as Abound per press releases.

-Vistana's internal exchange program VSN is also being renamed as Abound.

-The two internal exchange programs will share an Abound-named IT platform and interface but function completely separately within it...MVC using DP, Vistana using SO.

-There will be an option for Vistana owners to convert their ownerships to DP points in a given use year and use MVC's internal exchange platform portion for booking with them.

-MVC owners will be able to book in their own internal exchange system any Vistana ownership surrendered in a given use year when DP was elected.


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

Just one last point:  This is the *key info* that the insider wanted to share with Tuggers today, because, people are apparently still buying mandatory resort_, after 8/8, _thinking they will automatically be enrolled in Abound:

• Anything purchased before 8/8 that was mandatory [has Staroptions], will be put in Abound*.

• It must be purchased and already in the Vistana system by 8/8. That part can take 45 days, if you have a deed before 8/8 but it wasn't registered with Vistana by 8/8 it would not count

• Voluntary deeds purchased before 8/8 would have had to be put in VSN meaning bought extra to get Abound. (Requalified before 8/8 or buy additional deeds from Marriott after 8/8.)

_* The RESORT itself doesn't have to be mandatory - the key test is if THE WEEK THAT YOU OWN HAS STAROPTIONS_


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> Just one more point:  This is the *key info* that the insider wanted to share with Tuggers today, because, people are apparently still buying mandatory resort_, after 8/8, _thinking they will automatically be enrolled in Abound:
> 
> • Anything purchased before 8/8 that was mandatory, will be put in Abound.
> 
> ...


Agreed, that part is the real news.  The rest we've been told before, though perhaps bits in a less dramatic fashion


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## byeloe (Aug 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> The two internal exchange programs will share an Abound-named IT platform and interface but function completely separately within it...MVC using DP, Vistana using SO.


Do you know this or just speculation?
The "insider" seems to think differently.
I guess everything is mostly speculation until official details are released


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

byeloe said:


> Do you know this or just speculation?
> The "insider" seems to think differently.
> I guess everything is mostly speculation until official details are released


Exactly. We will know for sure when we know.

The insider used more dramatic words to basically say the same thing I am summarizing. Technically the VSN is going away since Abound will be taking over its functions but the external exchange feature using StarOptions it's not changing. This information is consistent with press releases and certain other Marriott documents that have been posted on various threads here. All of them confirm that the Vistana system will function internally the same way it always has albeit with different interfaces and new recognition levels and fee structure that aligns more with MVC.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 20, 2022)

Much of this makes sense but some of the finer points don't piece together perfectly and will depend on details. I have questions but it is no use to further speculate.

@DeniseM Does the insider know when this will be officially rolled out with official rules and details?


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

From post #1: 





> Booking in Abound will start 2023 usage and either late September or early October.


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## remowidget (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> *INSIDER: ...*Anyone who buys Mandatory [after 8/8] will only be able to use the program they bought, not the full 23 resorts.


Any clarification on this? This sounds like resale Mandatory completed before 8/8 will be able to book all of the Vistana resorts, but not Marriott resorts.

I'm a retail owner and like to use my Platinum Lagunamar to stay in Gold Lagunamar. Which will I be using going forward:
1 Bedroom Cost
Staroptions:    44,000/81000    = 54.32%
Abound:           2275    /3250    = 70.00%


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## VacationForever (Aug 20, 2022)

remowidget said:


> Any clarification on this? This sounds like resale Mandatory completed before 8/8 will be able to book all of the Vistana resorts, but not Marriott resorts.
> 
> I'm a retail owner and like to use my Platinum Lagunamar to stay in Gold Lagunamar. Which will I be using going forward:
> 1 Bedroom Cost
> ...


We don't know if StarOptions will still exist.  If VSN/SOs go away, you can only use Abound 2275/3250 (70%) option.


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> @remowidget - The exact details of the conversion of VSN to Abound have not been announced - not even internally.


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## cubigbird (Aug 20, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> We don't know if StarOptions will still exist.  If VSN/SOs go away, you can only use Abound 2275/3250 (70%) option.


If Staroptions go away it would contradict the statements of Vistana owners being able to be book Vistana resorts like they do now and ultimately be subject to that skim.


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## DeniseM (Aug 20, 2022)

> it would contradict the statements of Vistana owners being able to be book Vistana resorts _like they do now_


Where is this statement?


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## cubigbird (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> Where is this statement?


Weren’t we originally told nothing would change for Vistana owners if they don’t elect Abound?  From this discussion, it appears that may not be the case?


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## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

There has not been a post anywhere in any of these threads where someone was told that StarOptions are going away. People are imagining this because of one statement about the VSN being dismantled and everything moving to Abound. In recent sales presentations owners have been shown the new Abound interface which has separate tabs for Vistana ownership and MVC ownership and none of them said that they were shown their Vistana ownership in points instead of SOs, which I'm sure would have been mentioned by them if that was the case! If they were going to switch the internal Vistana ownership exchange currency to Abound points, they would never have announced the ability to convert your Vistana ownership into Abound points as a usage option for people to choose in a given year. Maybe we all just have to take a deep breath and try to stop our imaginations from running away with us. Tough to do given all that we've endured but it may save us each some anxiety in the situation we're in.


----------



## remowidget (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> Where is this statement?





dioxide45 said:


> Copy and pasting from the other thread so we can discuss specific items here.
> 
> *• Here are some answers for you from my source: I didn't choose the questions to answer, nor do I have any info about this topic myself, and I posted the response verbatim, so you'll have to take the answers below at face value.*
> 
> ...



Here is the full post:


dioxide45 said:


> Copy and pasting from the other thread so we can discuss specific items here.
> 
> *• Here are some answers for you from my source: I didn't choose the questions to answer, nor do I have any info about this topic myself, and I posted the response verbatim, so you'll have to take the answers below at face value.
> 
> ...


----------



## pacman777 (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> Where is this statement?


That was from your other “insider” that was posted a few months ago in that 1000+ post thread… guess different insider this time….


----------



## Red elephant (Aug 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> It might be helpful to think of it this way:
> 
> -MVC is renaming its internal exchange program as Abound per press releases.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to explain this properly as it was not clear before.


----------



## 5finny (Aug 20, 2022)

I have not spent a lot of time trying to figure out the conversion but--
I definitely did not see this coming
I bought a mandatory EY Vistana Villages some time ago 
The seller forwarded me the following email (Redacted)


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: *Vistana Title Changes* <titlechanges@mvwc.com>
Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 1:54 PM
Subject: Account Transfer Complete
To:***

Dear Sir or Madam,

This email is to confirm completion of ownership transfer, *Contract # ****as of *7/14/2022*. Please advise if we may aid with anything further.


Thank you.
                                        *****



The week does not show in my account yet and this email was sent to the seller not to me
I have not received anything from Vistana yet but I did call and they did confirm that it was in process (but said it was still a month or two from showing in my account)
I am hoping that that would still meet the cutoff criteria
I rarely buy but almost always look so I have been continuing to look
This info would probably mean I will not be looking to buy anymore Vistana Mandatory weeks so it is definitely useful information


----------



## dioxide45 (Aug 20, 2022)

I still don't understand how they could block post 8/8 mandatory resales. Will they just revert to pure weeks like voluntary and no longer have the ability to reserve with StarOptions? VSN simply signed into an affiliation agreement with Abound.


----------



## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

Assuming that the insider's info turns out to be correct, I'm wondering if the value of Flex resales will go up. Since you won't be able to buy a resale with SO's attached going forward, they would be the only resale ownership that will allow you to access multiple Vistana properties (without plunking down $40K to re-qualify). An interesting prospect!


----------



## kozykritter (Aug 20, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I still don't understand how they could block post 8/8 mandatory resales. Will they just revert to pure weeks like voluntary and no longer have the ability to reserve with StarOptions? VSN simply signed into an affiliation agreement with Abound.


That's what they pay all their high-powered lawyers to figure out


----------



## jabberwocky (Aug 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Assuming that the insider's info turns out to be correct, I'm wondering if the value of Westin and Sheraton Flex resales will go up. Since you won't be able to buy a resale with SO's attached going forward, they would be the only resale ownership that will allow you to access multiple Vistana properties (without plunking down $40K to re-qualify). An interesting prospect!


I’m surprised that they would still be selling Flex post 8/8 if they are really planning on getting rid of VSN and the ability to use SO. Note that the Vistana website still advertises the system.

Flex does give you more options; however, it is more limited in the sense that it doesn’t have Maui OF and it can cost a bit more in terms of MF. I’d prefer to just buy another mandatory Maui OF week and rent it out when I’m not using it.


----------



## remowidget (Aug 20, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Assuming that the insider's info turns out to be correct, I'm wondering if the value of Westin and Sheraton Flex resales will go up. Since you won't be able to buy a resale with SO's attached going forward, they would be the only resale ownership that will allow you to access multiple Vistana properties (without plunking down $40K to re-qualify). An interesting prospect!


Aventuras resales aren't cheap anymore.


----------



## travelhacker (Aug 20, 2022)

Wow. This is huge news.

Thanks for posting @DeniseM


----------



## dsmrp (Aug 20, 2022)

cubigbird said:


> If Staroptions go away it would contradict the statements of Vistana owners being able to be book Vistana resorts like they do now and ultimately be subject to that skim.


This is my concern as well if star options and the current Vistana internal exchange rates will cease to exist.  It is to Marriott's advantage to do away with star options exchanging, because it'll cost owners more than currently to reserve Vistana units  in Abound. This will be a consequence of lower resort unit valuations in Abound and skim. And may force Vistana owners to buy more DC pts in order to reserve in the future what they can reserve now.


----------



## 5finny (Aug 20, 2022)

So any Vistana week that had value solely or mostly because it was mandatory has lost that value as of 8/8
Even if my Vistana Villages Key West week makes the 8/8 cut it will have already lost most of it's resale value
Also looks like that part of the new Abound system that is the remnant of the old Star Option system will slowly wither on the vine as existing mandatory weeks are sold or fully converted into the new Abound


----------



## VacationForever (Aug 20, 2022)

I think WKV platinum weeks will still have good resale value because they command high rental rates.


----------



## dioxide45 (Aug 20, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> I think WKV platinum weeks will still have good resale value because they command high rental rates.


Perhaps, but only a small slice of people are buying them to use to rent. Many buy WKV because of the low MF to SO ratio. If they strip StarOptions away, you are only left with those interested in buying in order to rent. It takes out a huge swath of demand for the resort.


----------



## DanCali (Aug 20, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> Update on questions asked above.
> 
> *INSIDER: *BTW, every *VSN member* is enrolled in Abound. You decide if you want to use it but you WILL be paying the new ABOUND fee in place of the VSN fee regardless of whether you use Abound or just use your Vistana week.
> 
> [Definition:  *VSN members* own deeds with Staroptions.]



I am not sure why this insider's message is more valuable than others', but I also don't know who he/she is.

My 2 cents.... We have seen a lot of posts from owners told by various salespeople that VSN will continue just as it was. This makes more sense to me and is in line with how the Florida Club continues to exist for Marriott FL weeks alongside Abound. 

The claim that VSN members will be "*automatically"* enrolled makes me question much of this info, because it seems unrealistic. Enrollment into the DC Exchange (aka Abound) requires owners to sign an official Enrollment Agreement. You cannot enroll any developer or resale week into Abound without agreeing to those terms and conditions. Unless the VSN agreement is 100% identical, and it's not, I don't see how they can get around this and enroll automatically. Unless "automatically" is just a figure of speech and means eligible for enrollment without conditions...


----------



## RunCat (Aug 20, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But what chart are those reservations based on? The StarOption chart or Abound point values?


If it is flex, then the relative point values cannot easily change (assuming it is a real estate trust) since that could enable the overselling of points.


----------



## EnglishmanAbroad (Aug 21, 2022)

I was thinking that the resale value of our developer purchase of WKORVN was already at rock bottom but now I think I was wrong. I think I need to stop thinking


----------



## robertk2012 (Aug 21, 2022)

Is this the same insider that stated that mandatory properties would not qualify and that we must hurry to purchase something to bring them in the system?


----------



## robertk2012 (Aug 21, 2022)

You deleted multiple post of mine questioning the previous information that is now contradicted by this insider.  Your previous insider used you to push the narrative that was best for sales. I at no point "attacked" anyone unlike your name calling.  Again until I see it in writing and in contracts it is all rumors and hearsay.  




DeniseM said:


> The key word is "attack."  The last time I posted "insider" info, there were some nasty posts directed at the insider by people who had no idea what they were even talking about.  I expect a spirited debate about the upcoming changes, but attacking the source (or me), because you don't like the upcoming changes is just stupid.
> 
> Did you notice how long it's been since I posted info about this?  It's because some people acted like jack asses last time.
> 
> Don't shoot the messenger!


----------



## pchung6 (Aug 21, 2022)

I thought in the last earnings call, Marriott Timeshare CEO confirmed that nothing will change but Abound is just another layer on top of Staroptions. May I ask who is the “Insider”?


----------



## byeloe (Aug 21, 2022)

seems like more than a few people have a "trusted" insider.  Somewhat conflicting information coming out.  We should have a pole to see which one is correct in the end My money is on none


----------



## bizaro86 (Aug 21, 2022)

The reason the mandatory units are called mandatory is that VSN membership is required for resale owners. If they replace VSN with Abound it seems to me that Abound would then be mandatory? 

I agree that the last insider information seemed designed to push people to upgrade before a deadline, while this seems designed to scare people away from resale mandatory units. Obviously nobody except Denise knows the identity/role of these insiders, which is a key factor in evaluating the information. Seems like generally we'll just need to be patient.


----------



## Eric B (Aug 21, 2022)

bizaro86 said:


> The reason the mandatory units are called mandatory is that VSN membership is required for resale owners. If they replace VSN with Abound it seems to me that Abound would then be mandatory?
> 
> I agree that the last insider information seemed designed to push people to upgrade before a deadline, while this seems designed to scare people away from resale mandatory units. Obviously nobody except Denise knows the identity/role of these insiders, which is a key factor in evaluating the information. Seems like generally we'll just need to be patient.



We don’t actually have to be patient; we just have to wait.  Those of us that are patient are probably better off, though….


----------



## bizaro86 (Aug 21, 2022)

Eric B said:


> We don’t actually have to be patient; we just have to wait.  Those of us that are patient are probably better off, though….



Lol. Indeed. I suppose it would be more accurately stated that we have to wait, and have a choice between sound and furry vs patience. Probably the first isn't a productive use of time or energy...

Speaking only for myself if they neuter my sdo too badly I'll just deposit it into MVW's low cost inventory recapture program...

I do feel bad for those who own expensive mandatory units if this comes to pass.


----------



## Eric B (Aug 21, 2022)

bizaro86 said:


> Lol. Indeed. I suppose it would be more accurately stated that we have to wait, and have a choice between sound and furry vs patience. Probably the first isn't a productive use of time or energy...
> 
> Speaking only for myself if they neuter my sdo too badly I'll just deposit it into MVW's low cost inventory recapture program...
> 
> I do feel bad for those who own expensive mandatory units if this comes to pass.



Kind of happy that I have low cost mandatory weeks and some that I can rent for more than MFs.  If I come out with Abound I should be ~Presidential level and will likely be a Marriott fan — if not, life will go on without Abound getting my weeks.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 21, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I am not sure why this insider's message is more valuable than others', but I also don't know who he/she is.
> 
> My 2 cents.... We have seen a lot of posts from owners told by various salespeople that VSN will continue just as it was. This makes more sense to me and is in line with how the Florida Club continues to exist for Marriott FL weeks alongside Abound.
> 
> ...


I am wondering though if this is somehow different with VSN and MVCD signing the Master Affiliation Agreement. Perhaps that supersedes the need for individual members to actively enroll their ownership. It seems that the conduet to Abound is through VSN and not one's individual weeks like it was with Marriott. Just guessing here as to some possibilities.


----------



## cacain119 (Aug 21, 2022)

For what it is worth, we recently purchased WKV resale and were notified on 8/18 that the ownership transfer was complete (after the 8/8 cutoff the insider refers to). As of today, I'm able to see StarOption balances through 2025 and was able to book a week at Mission Hills in January. If they are planning any radical changes to mandatory resorts and their ability to use StarOptions, it has not taken place yet.


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## Helios (Aug 21, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I am not sure why this insider's message is more valuable than others', but I also don't know who he/she is.
> 
> My 2 cents.... We have seen a lot of posts from owners told by various salespeople that VSN will continue just as it was. This makes more sense to me and is in line with how the Florida Club continues to exist for Marriott FL weeks alongside Abound.
> 
> The claim that VSN members will be "*automatically"* enrolled makes me question much of this info, because it seems unrealistic. Enrollment into the DC Exchange (aka Abound) requires owners to sign an official Enrollment Agreement. You cannot enroll any developer or resale week into Abound without agreeing to those terms and conditions. Unless the VSN agreement is 100% identical, and it's not, I don't see how they can get around this and enroll automatically. Unless "automatically" is just a figure of speech and means eligible for enrollment without conditions...


Totally agree with this


----------



## Helios (Aug 21, 2022)

byeloe said:


> seems like more than a few people have a "trusted" insider.  Somewhat conflicting information coming out.  We should have a pole to see which one is correct in the end My money is on none


I think the winner should get a pre 8/8 unqualified Mandatory unit.


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## DeniseM (Aug 21, 2022)

> For what it is worth, we recently purchased WKV resale and were notified on 8/18 that the ownership transfer was complete (after the 8/8 cutoff the insider refers to). As of today, I'm able to see StarOption balances through 2025 and was able to book a week at Mission Hills in January. If they are planning any radical changes to mandatory resorts and their ability to use StarOptions, *it has not taken place yet*.



Per post #1 - the new program won't roll out until Sept. or Oct., so we are all still seeing the regular Vistana program.


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## TJALB (Aug 21, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> Per post #1 - the new program won't roll out until Sept. or Oct., so we are all still seeing the regular Vistana program.


Thank you. I’ll be watching for info in the upcoming months.


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## DanCali (Aug 21, 2022)

DeniseM said:


> Per post #1 - the new program won't roll out until Sept. or Oct., so we are all still seeing the regular Vistana program.



This is what the CEO said on June 16 Investor Day. This is the ultimate insider... 

To me this doesn't sound like SVN is going away, and it also doesn't sound like enrollment will be automatic. But I suppose it is possible to interpret that differently.


Transcript by Rev.com Page 15 of 48 (https://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/c255b213-f4b8-4090-9cfc-587aef00af3b)

_Steve Weisz:
I'll start with the first part and then we'll ask Lori to chime in on the second part. There is no question that when you have three different platforms, whether it be Marriott Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, or Sheraton Vacation Club, they were all started in different iterations, different currencies, etc. Trying to find the common denominator between those and* make sure that no one is disadvantaged as a result of joining Abound, which in fact is just another overlay. It’s another use option that you have.* If I’m a Sheraton member and *I don’t choose to become a member of Abound, that’s fine, I still have everything that I bought,* but if you’re a member of Abound, what happens is there’s a currency translation for what was Sheraton currency now into the Abound currency. So there’s the mental gymnastics of going through how you control inventory and point levels and all the other things. There’s also the regulatory side of things, our legal department working with not only our team, but also some outside entities, have worked very hard to make sure that we can get to this point without tripping over anything, because let's face it, timeshare is a regulated real estate product. So you have to go through those kinds of things. Then of course, there's the whole communication.; internally communicating and training our associates about what's different about Abound versus what they were selling before. And also how we communicate that to our owners so that they understand what benefits are going to come to them as a result of choosing to avail themselves of the Abound opportunity. 
_


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## dioxide45 (Aug 21, 2022)

DanCali said:


> I don’t choose to become a member of Abound, that’s fine, I still have everything that I bought,


But I guess the question is, what is the definition of "everything I bought"? Does that include StarOptions? Maybe it is just the week you own? I suspect however that nothing is happening to StarOptions and we haven't heard anything new from the "insider" about that. Sometimes I consider sales to be just as outside, if not more, than those of us on TUG. THey aren't spending this time analyzing everything, including recorded documents and analyst calls to draw reasonable conclusions.


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## DanCali (Aug 21, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But I guess the question is, what is the definition of "everything I bought"? Does that include StarOptions? Maybe it is just the week you own?



That's exactly why I said I suppose it is possible to interpret differently. In fact, I agree that what you bought is a week in a season not the exchange company per se, although it is part of the closing docs.

But the statements like _*Abound, is just another overlay. It’s another use option that you have.*_ and _*make sure that no one is disadvantaged as a result of joining Abound*_ are harder to say with a straight face if (i) you are taking SVN away along with some like-for-like exchange opportunities that will be gone (e.g., Plat WKV = Plat WMH = Plat WKORV), and (ii) taking away the mandatory nature of mandatory weeks upon subsequent resales, thus dropping the resale values of those mandatory weeks substantially as a result. Would anyone still pay $35K for WKORV OF weeks if they don't come with 176.7K SOs (or 8000+ Abound points) via resale?

But anything is possible, I guess.


----------



## robertk2012 (Aug 21, 2022)

Why add the 2025 star options to the website if that is going away in just a couple months.  I know this is Marriott but that makes no sense.


----------



## VacationForever (Aug 21, 2022)

robertk2012 said:


> Why add the 2025 star options to the website if that is going away in just a couple months.  I know this is Marriott but that makes no sense.


Based on old/existing programming.  No additional human intervention to add future SOs to the accounts.


----------



## Helios (Aug 21, 2022)

robertk2012 said:


> Why add the 2025 star options to the website if that is going away in just a couple months.  I know this is Marriott but that makes no sense.


You said it, this is Marriott (working with Vistana on IT integration).


----------



## RunCat (Aug 21, 2022)

robertk2012 said:


> Why add the 2025 star options to the website if that is going away in just a couple months.  I know this is Marriott but that makes no sense.


As said elsewhere, “old programming.”  And further, you can’t book those points anyway.  The only points that really matter today are 2023 points.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 21, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Would anyone still pay $35K for WKORV OF weeks if they don't come with 176.7K SOs (or 8000+ Abound points) via resale?



People pay $35K and more for Marriott Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas OF floating weeks without any points access, so I expect they would for WKORV as well.


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## DanCali (Aug 21, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> People pay $35K and more for Marriott Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas OF floating weeks without any points access, so I expect they would for WKORV as well.




I think that's a fair comparison.

I suspect demand from the Vistana owner side will definitely be lower. There were times when I considered it and even made a couple of offers. If VSN goes away (which I personally doubt) it's just not worth as much to me, even if I would rarely use the Staroptions to trade. But the allocation was generous, and it was a feature that came with the week and now it (perhaps) won't.

Remains to be seen if Marriott owners will offset that decline in demand. The market for $3000+ in MFs is limited, as we've seen with HRA weeks.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 21, 2022)

Mandatory resorts will no longer have access to other VSN resorts ???

Anyone want to make a wager?

This will mean that you can no longer use the studio side (1 week interval) to stay 6 days in 1 Bd at the same resort since this is a StarOption exchange.

It is the 2nd pillar of Vistana ownership and established in CCRs (regardless of the other “Club” mentioned).

Again - I am will to wager that this is BS.
To much risk of valid lawsuits. They are removing a key aspect of ownership that goes against the Contract made when purchasing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cubigbird (Aug 21, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Remains to be seen if Marriott owners will offset that decline in demand. The market for 3000+ in MFs is limited, as we've seen with HRA weeks.



I bet the MF for WSJ top over $4000 in 2023.


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## Eric B (Aug 21, 2022)

Seems to me that if Marriott kept the Florida Club, etc., they’ll keep the VSN.


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## robertk2012 (Aug 21, 2022)

Just trying to scare buyers out of the market.



DavidnRobin said:


> Mandatory resorts will no longer have access to other VSN resorts ???
> 
> Anyone want to make a wager?
> 
> ...


----------



## bizaro86 (Aug 21, 2022)

Eric B said:


> Seems to me that if Marriott kept the Florida Club, etc., they’ll keep the VSN.



If they keep the VSN then mandatory weeks stay mandatory.


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 21, 2022)

Perhaps they need to keep VSN. Otherwise Abound becomes mandatory for resale buyers given the CC&Rs. They will probably try to find ways to neuter VSN.


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## travelhacker (Aug 21, 2022)

We won't really know anything until September / October. However, I think there's enough smoke to say that mandatory resale owners of record by 8/8/2022 will be able to access Abound without a significant purchase (perhaps a small enrollment fee).

There are a few sticking points:
- Mandatory is written into the CC&R's. Having a cutoff of 8/8 for access to the successor of the VSN seems like it would be problematic.
- Awkwardness for those who have banked SO's
- Part of what made trading so healthy in VSN is that weeks became available at 8 months out.

My thought is that the VSN will have to exist in some form to take care of the CC&R requirement. However, what Marriott could do is make the VSN infinitely less attractive:

Here's how I think something could work:
1) You will be eligible to enroll into Abound if you have access to staroptions on 8/8/2022.

2) When you enroll into Abound, you will need to agree that you will need to elect your usage by dates that are similar to when Marriott owners need to make elections. If you do not elect, you will only have access to your home resort / season / unit and VSN.

3) Abound will naturally be more attractive for the following reasons:
- Access to more resorts
- No fees for housekeeping, no interval fees, no guest certificate fees, etc.
- Reduced availability of inventory for VSN exchanges

4) All mandatory resales set up after 8/8/2022 will be considered mandatory in that they will have access to their home booking as well as whatever units make it into the VSN.

5) Since the vast majority of SO owners would be better off enrolling into Abound, they will expect most to do this (and it could take time, there are still a lot of owners that haven't enrolled into the DP program, but I would guess a lot of those don't get enough points to justify the club fee). Since there is already a club fee for VSN, it would almost be a no brainer.

6) Marriott will have RoFR at everything but WKV (I believe). They'll continue to add weeks as the opportunity presents itself.

Basically everything within the VSN as of 8/8/2022 will be much better off enrolling into Abound. All mandatory resales after this date would have access to a greatly depleted VSN -- thus fulfilling the requirement of a mandatory exchange network, but it wouldn't be nearly as desirable. If you buy at one of the Ka'anapali resorts after 8/8/2022 you are mainly buying to stay there.

I think by allowing all mandatory resorts to join Abound they kill two birds with one stone:
- Make a ton of inventory available day 1
- Kill the competition with the VSN.

I think what I described above also lines up with what we have heard from other insiders (apart from the FUD factor to encourage people to buy).


----------



## pacman777 (Aug 21, 2022)

robertk2012 said:


> Just trying to scare buyers out of the market.


Haha. Maybe the insider wants to discourage people buying up WKV so he/she can without having the prices go up on the resale market.


----------



## FTEddie (Aug 21, 2022)

Ok, so if I have a mandatory resort VOI such as WKV Kierland that I purchased resale, will that VOI be automatically a part of Abound?  Assume before 8/8


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## CalGalTraveler (Aug 21, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> This will mean that you can no longer use the studio side (1 week interval) to stay 6 days in 1 Bd at the same resort since this is a StarOption exchange.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You make a great point. One of the reasons we purchased WKORVN was the flexibility to make these kinds of changes or even to lock off and book using SO's next year or use that somewhere else in the system. If they neuter VSN and require people to apply skim to gain access to the second half of their unit, then this is a major devaluation.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 21, 2022)

FTEddie said:


> Ok, so if I have a mandatory resort VOI such as WKV Kierland that I purchased resale, will that VOI be automatically a part of Abound?  Assume before 8/8


According to the OP, as long as it was registered with Vistana by 8/8, then yes.


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## pchung6 (Aug 21, 2022)

Seriously I really don’t care about mandatory can join Abound or not. I just want to keep VSN. There is nothing attractive about Abound to me.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 21, 2022)

Why is there some 8/8 arbitrary date anyway? Where does that date come from? In the early Marriott DC days, the dates were determined by official announcements to owners and their ability to start enrolling. Neither of which has actually happened yet with Abound. The only thing definitive that has happened is Marriott conveying Westin and Sheraton weeks to the MVC Destinations Trust on 3/3 and 3/4 and the master affiliation agreement between MVCD and VSN on the same date. None of these correspond to 8/8.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 21, 2022)

Rumors of the demise of VSN are greatly exaggerated, IMO.  

As an aside, I’m wondering if we should get the mod to merge this thread with the master Abound thread? It seems like we are getting to the point where we are just continuing that discussion here.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 21, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> Rumors of the demise of VSN are greatly exaggerated, IMO.
> 
> As an aside, I’m wondering if we should get the mod to merge this thread with the master Abound thread? It seems like we are getting to the point where we are just continuing that discussion here.


I would agree. I am not sure why this was really started as a new thread in the first place other than to hopefully get more eyeballs on it.


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## bizaro86 (Aug 21, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> We won't really know anything until September / October. However, I think there's enough smoke to say that mandatory resale owners of record by 8/8/2022 will be able to access Abound without a significant purchase (perhaps a small enrollment fee).
> 
> There are a few sticking points:
> - Mandatory is written into the CC&R's. Having a cutoff of 8/8 for access to the successor of the VSN seems like it would be problematic.
> ...



This seems likely to me, because it fulfills their obligations while maximizing their ability to sell conversions for easy profits. It's what I would do if I were them.


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## Sv1plat52 (Aug 22, 2022)

For the most part, whatever happens, there a things that most people knew already:

-something I learned here: buy in place that you like and you are most likely to go

-Devaluation: no matter what happens, your currency will be devaluated: what you use to buy with 81000 staroptions will be no more.

Forget about booking HRA, or WSJ. Now you will be competing with Marriot owners for the best weeks/resorts. You likely to have to purchase additional currency with increased Annual Fees to do what you were doing up to now.

as a result of the above and other macroeconomics cycles, there will be a lot of defaults and Marriott will accumulate additional weeks with the caveat that will not be collecting MF for such weeks: more consolidation or bankruptcies in in the industry to follow…


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## Grandma2016 (Aug 22, 2022)

Sv1plat52 said:


> For the most part, whatever happens, there a things that most people knew already:
> 
> -something I learned here: buy in place that you like and you are most likely to go
> 
> ...


Wont the owners of those resorts still have the 8 to 12 month booking window?


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## Grandma2016 (Aug 22, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> Seriously I really don’t care about mandatory can join Abound or not. I just want to keep VSN. There is nothing attractive about Abound to me.


I agree.  I bought where i want to vacation


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## Grandma2016 (Aug 22, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> We won't really know anything until September / October. However, I think there's enough smoke to say that mandatory resale owners of record by 8/8/2022 will be able to access Abound without a significant purchase (perhaps a small enrollment fee).
> 
> There are a few sticking points:
> - Mandatory is written into the CC&R's. Having a cutoff of 8/8 for access to the successor of the VSN seems like it would be problematic.
> ...


Why do you think a majority of people with SO would be better off enrolling with Abound


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## Sv1plat52 (Aug 22, 2022)

Grandma2016 said:


> Wont the owners of those resorts still have the 8 to 12 month booking window?



I should have specified that Marriott fishing for weeks on top of owners booking their weeks. This reinforces the fact to buy where you want to go. And I am going to add: when you want to go (season)


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## Grandma2016 (Aug 22, 2022)

Sv1plat52 said:


> I should have specified that Marriott fishing for weeks on top of owners booking their weeks. This reinforces the fact to buy where you want to go. And I am going to add: when you want to go (season)


We own only KOR and KORN and thats where we want to go.


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## kozykritter (Aug 22, 2022)

You can put to rest your fears about the VSN and SOs being eliminated. After last night's upgrade, on the Marriott owners website there is a video from the president of MVW discussing Abound and saying that it is just an enhancement to all of the owners current usage options (from the context, he included Vistana owners in that). There are now two written FAQs posted on the MVC website but no other info. They state that this new usage option is being made possible by an affiliation with the VSN, which means the VSN isn't going away (likely just being administered through the Abound platform once it launches). They also say they plan to launch it in October 2022. Finally they specifically mentioned that Marriott members will have access to Vistana inventory when Vistana owners elect to receive Club points for their VOI for a given year which means they won't be eliminating SO's because otherwise there would be no conversion/election involved. Here's the text of that FAQ:

"Similar to how vacations are made available at Marriott Vacation Club resorts and properties, reservations to stay at Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club resorts will be available in the Abound by Marriott Vacations™ exchange program when an Owner of a VOI in those brands *elects to receive Club Points*. Availability at Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club resorts for Marriott Vacation Club owners will depend on the number of Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club owners at those resorts who elect to receive Club Points. For this reason, it is possible that there could be limited availability at some Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club resorts."


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## ocdb8r (Aug 22, 2022)

In addition, he states in the video:

_One thing to point out.  *Nothing with your existing ownership changes. All the usage options  you have today, all the rights you have, you can continue to use just as you have in the past*. We're trying to add additional options to that to make your vacation experiences with us even better. With that, we hope you'll find out more information about this program over the next few months._


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## travelhacker (Aug 22, 2022)

Grandma2016 said:


> Why do you think a majority of people with SO would be better off enrolling with Abound


1) There's a lot more options within Abound.
2) There will be a consolidation of fees (it's possible they do this within VSN, but I think they'd like everyone to move to Abound, so I'm not certain this will happen).
3) Many of the "aspirational" type properties (Ka'anapali, etc) are better off in Abound because they get higher point values than some of the nice, but less aspirational properties (like Kierland).  There is an incentive to use the new product.
4) With less availability of the premier VSN properties, it makes more sense for owners of some the other properties to join Abound as well (because of point #1)

So if someone owned at WKORV and really liked Kierland for the occasional trade, they could go and stay in a 2 bedroom for almost 2 weeks rather than the 1 week using the VSN. Because of this, I see the inventory at places like Ka'anapali, WSJ, and Westin Riverfront drying up, therefore most people would be better off with Abound.

I like VSN. Unfortunately for me, I only recently got into it. Having such good access to a lot of great options is remarkable. However, ultimately I think that Abound will be a more attractive product for the majority of owners. Because of that, I think I'll be better off enrolling into Abound.

Sales drives everything and a more attractive product is much easier to sell.

While many Tuggers will feel the impact as the VSN gradually becomes a shell of it's former self (as availability at most properties dries up) as Abound becomes more attractive, I think ultimately the vast majority of owners will be happier within the combined system.

Ultimately, I think Marriott makes the VSN less attractive by virtue of creating a better product for most owners within Abound. Those of us who have seen and taken advantage of the arbitrage opportunities within VSN may be worse off, but at least we'll have more opportunities of places to to trade into with our usage.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 22, 2022)

ocdb8r said:


> In addition, he states in the video:
> 
> _One thing to point out.  *Nothing with your existing ownership changes. All the usage options  you have today, all the rights you have, you can continue to use just as you have in the past*. We're trying to add additional options to that to make your vacation experiences with us even better. With that, we hope you'll find out more information about this program over the next few months._


Technically this FAQ was written for Marriott owners.


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## kozykritter (Aug 22, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Technically this FAQ was written for Marriott owners.


In the video he mentions all the owners across all the brands before he says those words so that gives it context here.


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## byeloe (Aug 22, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> 3) Many of the "aspirational" type properties (Ka'anapali, etc) are better off in Abound because they get higher point values than some of the nice, but less aspirational properties (like Kierland). There is an incentive to use the new product


Since most vsn owners do not own "aspirational properties"  the reverse would be true.  They can do better staying in VSN


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## dioxide45 (Aug 22, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> 3) Many of the "aspirational" type properties (Ka'anapali, *etc*) are better off in Abound because they get higher point values than some of the nice, but less aspirational properties (like Kierland). There is an incentive to use the new product.


What are the *etc*? I can't think of many except perhaps Lagunamar.


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## kozykritter (Aug 22, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> 1) There's a lot more options within Abound.
> 2) There will be a consolidation of fees (it's possible they do this within VSN, but I think they'd like everyone to move to Abound, so I'm not certain this will happen).
> 3) Many of the "aspirational" type properties (Ka'anapali, etc) are better off in Abound because they get higher point values than some of the nice, but less aspirational properties (like Kierland).  There is an incentive to use the new product.
> 4) With less availability of the premier VSN properties, it makes more sense for owners of some the other properties to join Abound as well (because of point #1)
> ...


On the subject of consolidated fees, that is a near certainty based upon the post below containing official-looking Marriott/Vistana sales documents (as opposed to homemade sales person docs!) showing the consolidated fees and a footnote that for 2023, all VSN members would pay the consolidated fee dues (regardless of Abound).  With the recently posted affiliation agreement making VSN members also MVC exchange members aka Abound, it is extremely likely that same dues fee covers Abound participation by Vistana owners based upon consistent sales presentation information since the soft launch. Hopefully it will also mean just one club fee for dual Vistana-Marriott owners instead of two since both will be using Abound.









						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

Enrollment of a week cannot occur until you agree to the "Terms and Conditions" of the exchange company. Therefore, I am highly skeptical about the "automatic enrollment" representation.  I suspect those would pop up when you went to actually elect points for the first time and  "activated" your...




					tugbbs.com


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## travelhacker (Aug 22, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> What are the *etc*? I can't think of many except perhaps Lagunamar.


I was thinking of WSJ and even HRA (I've heard it's not that nice, but it would certainly be aspirational for our family to get access to the amenities at Atlantis).


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## dioxide45 (Aug 22, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> I was thinking of WSJ and even HRA (I've heard it's not that nice, but it would certainly be aspirational for our family to get access to the amenities at Atlantis).


But you seemed to define aspirational based on them getting higher point values. Right now, that only seems to be limited to the Maui properties and Lagunamar. Harborside can't even participate yet. Perhaps I misunderstood. There is a difference between aspirational and which ones get higher point values. It doesn't necessarily make sense for some owners of aspirational properties to participate in Abound and elect Club Points.


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## kozykritter (Aug 22, 2022)

Here is another FAQ from the MVC website that may help owners feel calmer about the changes:

"Owners at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club Resorts who do not participate in Abound by Marriott Vacations will continue to use the Vistana Signature Network for internal exchange opportunities at Sheraton Vacation Club and Westin Vacation Club resorts."


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## travelhacker (Aug 22, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> But you seemed to define aspirational based on them getting higher point values. Right now, that only seems to be limited to the Maui properties and Lagunamar. Harborside can't even participate yet. Perhaps I misunderstood. There is a difference between aspirational and which ones get higher point values. It doesn't necessarily make sense for some owners of aspirational properties to participate in Abound and elect Club Points.


Aspirational was meant as a place that your average person would get excited about visiting and less about the number of Abound points you'd get. 

If / when HRA / WRF join, I am almost certain they'll be given larger Abound point values than their equivalent in VSN.

WSJ is interesting because the only data point for platinum season that I saw in your spreadsheet (thanks for putting that together!) was a 3BR. As we know the larger units are a bit handicapped within the DP system in terms of the number of points that they generate (i.e. 2 small 1 bedrooms at Kierland will do better than a 2 bedroom lockoff when electing into Abound). 

It could also be argued that the gold season weeks you have listed at WSJ are better off within Abound than within the VSN.

A gold plus 3 BR pool villa at Virgin Grand gets 125,000 SO, but will get 4150 DP. This would get them a week at Kierland in a 2 bedroom during Platinum Plus season (in abound) and before they would be shy of that.

When you factor in that they have more trade options by using Abound over the VSN, I think a very high percentage of owners will find that Abound ultimately serves their interests better.

This will be a bit of a prisoner's dilemma. As a whole, I'm not sure that current VSN owners will be better off in abound, but I think there are enough instances of individuals that will be better off electing into Abound that VSN will gradually become a shell of itself.


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## robertk2012 (Aug 22, 2022)

So maybe the insider failed reading comprehension and the VSN fees are going away and not the VSN network.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 22, 2022)

robertk2012 said:


> So maybe the insider failed reading comprehension and the VSN fees are going away and not the VSN network.


That could be it. Or they thought since the VSN fee was going away, so was VSN.


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## timsi (Aug 22, 2022)

How does the banking of Staroptions compare to the banking of MVC points for someone without a status in VSN (and no status in the combined system) ? In VSN I have to pay the banking fees, but I like that the SO are extended for two more years, effectively 2.5 more years of usage from the moment of the extension. I am not sure this will be the case in Abound and I am afraid that if I do not have a clear MVC resort in mind for the next year, and if that week is not easy to book in Abound, I will probably keep booking in VSN where it is easier for me to combine points from other years.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 22, 2022)

timsi said:


> How does the banking of Staroptions compare to the banking of MVC points for someone without a status in VSN (and no status in the combined system) ? In VSN I have to pay the banking fees, but I like that the SO are extended for two more years, effectively 2.5 more years of usage from the moment of the extension. I am not sure this will be the case in Abound and I am afraid that if I do not have a clear MVC resort in mind for the next year, and if that week is not easy to book in Abound, I will probably keep booking in VSN where it is easier for me to combine points from other years.


If you elect Abound Club Points in the future, those can be banked for 1, 1.5 or 2 years depending on your status in Abound. StarOptions always are banked for two years and I wouldn't expect that to change.


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## VacationForever (Aug 22, 2022)

I find the following FAQ interesting:
Will the affliation of the VSN with Abound by Marriott Vacations impact Owner benefit levels?

The affiliation itself will not impact Owner benefit levels.
However, if you are an Owner who owns inventory with Marriott Vacation Club and also owns VOIs with Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin Vacation Club that are enrolled in VSN— which is now affiliated with Abound — it is possible that your Owner benefit level could go up, based on the total election value of all your ownership across all affiliated brands.
Whether the election value of Sheraton Vacation Club and/or Westin Vacation Club VOIs may be added to your existing Marriott Vacation Club vacation interests depends on factors such as how you took title of the different VOIs and inventory owned across the affiliated brands.

Bullet 2 says if you are enrolled in VSN, the it is "possible" that your Owner benefit level could go up, based on total election value...  So if I don't elect for that year, does my benefit level go down?  Note that resale mandatory Vistana weeks are enrolled in VSN, this means that these are all eligible for election.

Bullet 3 says, it depends on how you took title, basically they are trying to differentiate between direct-bought/retro'ed vs. resale.  Maybe resale cannot participate, or maybe that resale mandatory can "elect" but MVC "vacation interest" is really to determine elite/ownership level and that resale ownership cannot be used to determine elite/ownership level.


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## kozykritter (Aug 22, 2022)

You have to remember that those answers were written to address the questions of MVC owners, not Vistana owners so it wouldn't really address some of the subtle burning questions we Vistana owners still have.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 22, 2022)

I guess we don’t have wagering type of folks here - lots of bluster though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eric B (Aug 22, 2022)

The break up of Base Exchange Benefits and Base Plus Exchange Benefits based on purchase source in section IV.H. might be the key discriminator for resale mandatory weeks.  It’s covered on page 12 and allows the Exchange Company to otherwise grant Base Plus Exchange Benefits to program members at its discretion, which could include mandatory resale ownerships held before August 9th, 2022, as has been posted elsewhere.

Base Exchange Benefits are defined on page 21 and allow booking in the Open Reservation Period, defined on page 25 as 60 days prior to check in.

Base Plus Exchange Benefits are defined on page 21 and include all the reservation periods, which work out to be the ones based on ownership tier level.

In my estimation, future mandatory resale ownerships will probably be in the program officially in order to satisfy that aspect of their mandatory nature, but have very limited utility.  There’s also the possibility of paying an initiation fee similar to resale points.


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## kozykritter (Aug 22, 2022)

I posted a copy of the Abound FAQs from the MVC owner's website.  As mentioned, they are written to address the questions of MVC owners primarily so might not have all the answer you seek.









						CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)
					

Here's a new FAQ from the MVC website concerning Abound and booking windows for Vistana inventory:   Can Owners use Club Points to reserve a stay at a Sheraton Vacation Club or a Westin Vacation Club resort 13 months prior to arrival?   No. Owners can reserve a Sheraton Vacation Club or Westin...




					tugbbs.com


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## dioxide45 (Aug 22, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> I guess we don’t have wagering type of folks here - lots of bluster though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think anyone disagreed with you, thus they wouldn't place the bet. Most expected the "insider" was wrong.


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## wjarcher (Aug 22, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> Bullet 2 says if you are enrolled in VSN, the it is "possible" that your Owner benefit level could go up, based on total election value...  So if I don't elect for that year, does my benefit level go down?  Note that resale mandatory Vistana weeks are enrolled in VSN, this means that these are all eligible for election.



If going by what the destination club does today, the owner benefit level is determined by the total number of potential points eligible for election, not by the points you actually elect.


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## DanCali (Aug 22, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> Bullet 2 says if you are enrolled in VSN, the it is "possible" that your Owner benefit level could go up, based on total election value...  So if I don't elect for that year, does my benefit level go down?  Note that resale mandatory Vistana weeks are enrolled in VSN, this means that these are all eligible for election.




No - all this means is that your Elite level in Abound is determined by the points you have access to.

I am currently Presidential in MVC with DC points between 10K and 15K. I rarely elect points for my weeks, but that doesn't matter at all. Once my WKV weeks are eligible to enroll, I should move to Chairman level. But, again, this has nothing to do with actually electing points. Just having the weeks enrolled in the system is sufficient.

Given WKV rental value, if I don't use it and desire Abound points, I intend to rent out the week and use the cash to rent points from someone else. This gets me a whopping 60%-70% extra points. I'm pretty sure some WKORV/N OF folks will be on the other side of that exchange


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## kozykritter (Aug 22, 2022)

The Abound Exchange documents have this provision which supports the mapping of VSN elite members to the MVC recognition levels as previously discussed in these forums. We just have to wait for Vistana to release all its equivalent information about how Abound will work on their end aka VSN Rules and Regulations:

"VSN Members may also achieve Select Member, Executive Member, Presidential Member or Chairman’s Club Member status by meeting the qualifications set forth in the applicable Vistana Signature Network Rules and Regulations. "


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## rickandcindy23 (Aug 22, 2022)

> *INSIDER:*
> 
> • *Anything purchased before 8/8 that was mandatory, [had Staroptions] will be put in Abound.*
> 
> ...



I don't know if I really care all that much, because I didn't really see any reason to be included in Abound anything with my Westin Ka'anapali oceanfront center weeks (two of them), but Vistana sat on the transfer of my Westins from the receipt date of 6/1 from the closing company, purchased through Syed Sarmad, and didn't get them transferred until 8/11.  Just commenting on how ridiculous that delay was.  Almost intentional on the part of Vistana/ Marriott, but they should know that I am nonplussed by Abound with those oceanfront units.   

I have other weeks I can always consider enrolling into Abound with a purchase, but for now, I will just use II until it's no longer feasible.


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I don't know if I really care all that much, because I didn't really see any reason to be included in Abound anything with my Westin Ka'anapali oceanfront center weeks (two of them), but Vistana sat on the transfer of my Westins from the receipt date of 6/1 from the closing company, purchased through Syed Sarmad, and didn't get them transferred until 8/11.  Just commenting on how ridiculous that delay was.  Almost intentional on the part of Vistana/ Marriott, but they should know that I am nonplussed by Abound with those oceanfront units.
> 
> I have other weeks I can always consider enrolling into Abound with a purchase, but for now, I will just use II until it's no longer feasible.



I have seen examples where a transfer was in process, but wasn‘t completed in the MVC system until after a cut off date and they allowed it to be enrolled in the DC program. So you may want to pursue that if your units aren’t included. No harm in trying.

Best regards.

Mike


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## TravelTime (Aug 22, 2022)

mjm1 said:


> I have seen examples where a transfer was in process, but wasn‘t completed in the MVC system until after a cut off date and they allowed it to be enrolled in the DC program. So you may want to pursue that if your units aren’t included. No harm in trying.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike



Yes this happened with me. The junk fee went from $2 to $3 while I was in escrow. Marriott honored the $2 but it had to get approval and go up the chain a bit, of course.


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## remowidget (Aug 22, 2022)

...


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## Julian926 (Aug 22, 2022)

I'm kinda excited about this coming from a sole 81k SO SVV (mandatory).  The options to travel to other places is the icing.  However, we do tend to go to Maui every so often and our ability to easily get a 1br Premium room would be something of concern.  Would we be able to get that 1 BR WKORV? I guess that depends if there is an overlay or not.


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## VacationForever (Aug 22, 2022)

Julian926 said:


> I'm kinda excited about this coming from a sole 81k SO SVV (mandatory).  The options to travel to other places is the icing.  However, we do tend to go to Maui every so often and our ability to easily get a 1br Premium room would be something of concern.  Would we be able to get that 1 BR WKORV? I guess that depends if there is an overlay or not.


You should still be able to get 1BR at WKORV through SOs but not with Abound points.  Your SVV week will get you around 2725 to 2825 Abound points, which is not enough to book 1BR at WKORV in Abound.


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## Julian926 (Aug 22, 2022)

VacationForever said:


> You should still be able to get 1BR at WKORV through SOs but not with Abound points.  Your SVV week will get you around 2725 to 2825 Abound points, which is not enough to book 1BR at WKORV in Abound.



Yeah, that's what I thought.  I don't know if there are going to be 2 types of Abounds :  star options vs. marriott.  I would guess that would mean an underlay is happening if true.


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## VacationForever (Aug 22, 2022)

Julian926 said:


> Yeah, that's what I thought.  I don't know if there are going to be 2 types of Abounds :  star options vs. marriott.  I would guess that would mean an underlay is happening if true.


Remember "If you like what you have, you can keep it."?  Hopefully this time around it is true.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 22, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I don't think anyone disagreed with you, thus they wouldn't place the bet. Most expected the "insider" was wrong.



Seemed more than just them.

Maybe the “Insider” will send me a DM - I am willing to go up to $1000…

Are you listening “Insider”?
put up, or…

Sorry, tired of all the misinformation spread here and on FB groups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jabberwocky (Aug 22, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Seemed more than just them.
> 
> Maybe the “Insider” will send me a DM - I am willing to go up to $1000…
> 
> ...


I think the sad part here is that this “insider” was given such credibility via the posting by a well-regarded TUG member (and mod to boot). 

Had it been posted by anyone else I doubt there would have been such hand-wringing, but much of what has been posted from both (or is it just one) “insider” information has proved to be false or extremely stretched truth. 

I’m not sure what the motives of these Insiders are, but unfortunately I think many people have spent a lot of money based on fear of missing out.


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## controller1 (Aug 22, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> I think the sad part here is that this “insider” was given such credibility via the posting by a well-regarded TUG member (and mod to boot).
> 
> Had it been posted by anyone else I doubt there would have been such hand-wringing, but much of what has been posted from both (or is it just one) “insider” information has proved to be false or extremely stretched truth.
> 
> I’m not sure what the motives of these Insiders are, but unfortunately I think many people have spent a lot of money based on fear of missing out.



Here is some information from another insider. A person on Facebook states she is on the Board of a Vistana resort and received an email today from Marriott stating all owners would receive an email within the next few days with detailed information on Abound and a detailed FAQ.

Take it for what it's worth.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 22, 2022)

controller1 said:


> Here is some information from another insider. A person on Facebook states she is on the Board of a Vistana resort and received an email today from Marriott stating all owners would receive an email within the next few days with detailed information on Abound and a detailed FAQ.
> 
> Take it for what it's worth.



That's probably going to be the same information that was posted today on the Marriott Vacation Club website, that includes several videos and an extensive FAQ.


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## kozykritter (Aug 22, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> That's probably going to be the same information that was posted today on the Marriott Vacation Club website, that includes several videos and an extensive FAQ.


Hopefully it will be tailored to Vistana owners the same way that the information on MVC's website was tailored to Marriott owners.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 22, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Hopefully it will be tailored to Vistana owners the same way that the information on MVC's website was tailored to Marriott owners.



Yeah, if the emails do go out, I would expect MVC owners to get one tailored to MVC and VSN to get a VSN-tailored one.


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## CPNY (Aug 22, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I don't know if I really care all that much, because I didn't really see any reason to be included in Abound anything with my Westin Ka'anapali oceanfront center weeks (two of them), but Vistana sat on the transfer of my Westins from the receipt date of 6/1 from the closing company, purchased through Syed Sarmad, and didn't get them transferred until 8/11.  Just commenting on how ridiculous that delay was.  Almost intentional on the part of Vistana/ Marriott, but they should know that I am nonplussed by Abound with those oceanfront units.
> 
> I have other weeks I can always consider enrolling into Abound with a purchase, but for now, I will just use II until it's no longer feasible.


Marriott most likely did this on purpose however, I’m sure if you have proof that the paperwork was submitted before that date, you can make a case to have it rectified. But yeah, I don’t trust Marriott employees at all


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## dioxide45 (Aug 22, 2022)

When Marriott rolled out the DC program. Eligibility was based on Deed Recording Date. Not the date it was transferred internally. Since internal transfer date is somewhat arbitrary, I would expect them to go with deed recording date for VSN Abound eligibility also.

_Weeks purchased from third parties (i.e., not from Marriott Vacation Club International or its affiliates) with a *deed recording date* prior to June 20, 2010 (or prior to April 21, 2016 for Marriott Phuket Beach Club weeks) are eligible for this offer,_


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## timsi (Aug 22, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> I think the sad part here is that this “insider” was given such credibility via the posting by a well-regarded TUG member (and mod to boot).
> 
> Had it been posted by anyone else I doubt there would have been such hand-wringing, but much of what has been posted from both (or is it just one) “insider” information has proved to be false or extremely stretched truth.
> 
> I’m not sure what the motives of these Insiders are, but unfortunately I think many people have spent a lot of money based on fear of missing out.


Probably some of these insiders were buying mandatory resorts head over fist while telling us mandatory resale would not be part of AbMV.


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## dsmrp (Aug 22, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> I think the sad part here is that this “insider” was given such credibility via the posting by a well-regarded TUG member (and mod to boot).
> 
> Had it been posted by anyone else I doubt there would have been such hand-wringing, but much of what has been posted from both (or is it just one) “insider” information has proved to be false or extremely stretched truth.
> 
> I’m not sure what the motives of these Insiders are, but unfortunately I think many people have spent a lot of money based on fear of missing out.


The 1st bit of "info" at soft launch about resales and mandatory being left out, got a lot of flex buyers, which meant that Marriott didn't have to carry MF for all those unsold non-prime flex points.

I think the soft launch 'insider' was a sales manager. Likely is same person for this last update. Could be the insider was passing on what Sales was initially told. And during period before final launch, the higher Marriott  powers that be reconsidered their strategy to allow mandatories into Abound. They probably realized they would be missing out on a lot of Kierland and Maui weeks for Abound if they stayed on original course.

Also could be that all of it from the get go was the master plan to get more Flex sales which would tip owners into converting to Abound pts.  Adoption of a new system by users/owners is also extremely important during the initial launch period. Surely they learned that with the DC since 2010.

Still I'm glad we didn't bite to buy flex, for the VSN reasons Sales was pushing.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 22, 2022)

dsmrp said:


> I think the soft launch 'insider' was a sales manager. Likely is same person for this last update. Could be the insider was passing on what Sales was initially told. And during period before final launch, the higher Marriott  powers that be reconsidered their strategy to allow mandatories into Abound. They probably realized they would be missing out on a lot of Kierland and Maui weeks for Abound if they stayed on original course.


I’m not certain that it was higher levels pushing this narrative. I don’t think MVC leadership would be that smart or act with such malice.

We attended a presentation at the end of March, a few days after the soft launch and the morning after they had rolled out the software allowing sales to see the points allocated for each VOI in the system.

Our sales person, to his credit, told us that all of our intervals (even the resale) would be in the new system and we didn’t have to buy anything further, unless we wanted to top up our WFlex package. So something had been communicated to the sales staff at some point early in the process. Some just chose to lie.

Unfortunately, I was shouted down a bit here when I related this on TUG. But given my source was just sales (which I disclosed) it was not given much credibility.


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 22, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> *When Marriott rolled out the DC program. Eligibility was based on Deed Recording Date. *Not the date it was transferred internally. Since internal transfer date is somewhat arbitrary, I would expect them to go with deed recording date for VSN Abound eligibility also.
> 
> _Weeks purchased from third parties (i.e., not from Marriott Vacation Club International or its affiliates) with a *deed recording date* prior to June 20, 2010 (or prior to April 21, 2016 for Marriott Phuket Beach Club weeks) are eligible for this offer,_


No.  Eligibility was based on the date Marriott waived ROFR.  This is based on personal experience in 2010; we bought a Kauai Beach Club VOI which cleared ROFR prior to the deadline but recorded afterwards.  We were invited to enroll it in the DC program.


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## DanCali (Aug 22, 2022)

jabberwocky said:


> Our sales person, to his credit, told us that all of our intervals (even the resale) would be in the new system and we didn’t have to buy anything further, unless we wanted to top up our WFlex package. So something had been communicated to the sales staff at some point early in the process. Some just chose to lie.
> 
> Unfortunately, I was shouted down a bit here when I related this on TUG. But given my source was just sales (which I disclosed) it was not given much credibility.



Did you act on that information? If I had that type of information back in March, and thought the source was credible enough, I totally would have picked up a couple of Maui weeks.

Considering you can use a week as points annually, picking up 6200 points for $15K with MFs of $0.45-$0.50 per points is a deal you won't see again - most likely ever. You can't get that price per point even without junk fees.

Looking at the crossed-out listings on RedWeek it looks like quite a few people acted on that information. I suspect quite a few were salespeople with actual inside info.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 22, 2022)

vacationtime1 said:


> No.  Eligibility was based on the date Marriott waived ROFR.  This is based on personal experience in 2010; we bought a Kauai Beach Club VOI which cleared ROFR prior to the deadline but recorded afterwards.  We were invited to enroll it in the DC program.


Perhaps. I was just posting the requirements as they have them on the website currently and as they were on day one.


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## jabberwocky (Aug 22, 2022)

DanCali said:


> Did you act on that information? If I had that type of information back in March, and thought the source was credible enough, I totally would have picked up a couple of Maui weeks.
> 
> Considering you can use a week as points annually, picking up 6200 points for $15K with MFs of $0.45-$0.50 per points is a deal you won't see again - most likely ever. You can't get that price per point even without junk fees.


I thought about it. But there were a couple of problems even if I fully believed sales:

1) I was uncertain whether mandatory resales would qualify after the rollout date (which they were saying was May/June at the time). Given the long transfer times, it was too risky.

2) Divorce is expensive and would certainly swamp any potential savings off of this. I don’t want to get into renting given cross-border tax issues. TS is just a hobby for us and I have a portfolio that meets our needs for at least the next 8 years while our kids are in school. My wife already thinks we have too much


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## robertk2012 (Aug 22, 2022)

I believe that if 1) Mandatory resorts are automatically eligible for abound without an additional purchase and 2) VSN is not removed that a certain mod owes many of us a public apology.

I was harassed and called names just because I disagreed that the “insider” statements and that until anything was released officially we didn’t know for certain. Because I discouraged this fear buying a large number of my posts were deleted.

It is clear that those in sales read the forum and will play off any motivation that will help them with a sale. It is also clear that the misinformation is organized.  There is no way so many random salespeople would feed the same lines otherwise.


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## rcv82 (Aug 23, 2022)

I hope I am wrong, but the only reason I can see that the would let unrequalified mandatory resales (and not voluntary resales) use Abound exchanges is if they plan to eventually get rid of VSN. Abound becomes the new “club”. This would basically eliminate the difference between Marriott and Vistana enrolled weeks, simplifying administration and inventory control. And at least in my read of the CCRs it seems to me they could do this. 

If they are going to keep VSN, why give some resale owners Abound access (and status) for free and not others? (Fee simplification, meaning only one club fee structure, could be one reason, but doesn’t seem like a good enough reason.)

I happen to like VSN a lot, even if my primary usage is to convert week stays at a home resort to shorter stays for skiing. 

So I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss the OP’s insider information. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## remowidget (Aug 23, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> I was thinking of WSJ and even HRA (I've heard it's not that nice, but it would certainly be aspirational for our family to get access to the amenities at Atlantis).


We have been to both and they were one and done as far as we are concerned. For us you are correct, they were aspirational properties. However, they were only aspirational to us because we were Vistana owners looking at where we could go. I think we would have had zero desire to go to either if we hadn't been Vistana owners. Atlantis was cool, but nothing like Orlando has to offer. WSJ did have some good snorkeling, but everything was very expensive and the bugs were voracious. I have met people who love both properties, but everyone has different priorities.


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## remowidget (Aug 23, 2022)

travelhacker said:


> If / when HRA / WRF join, I am almost certain they'll be given larger Abound point values than their equivalent in VSN.


I don't know about WRF, but I have seen full availability at HRA a lot of times when I was trying to find nonexistant availability at Lagunamar.


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## rcv82 (Aug 23, 2022)

remowidget said:


> I don't know about WRF, but I have seen full availability at HRA a lot of times when I was trying to find nonexistant availability at Lagunamar.



During prime ski season, WRF is probably the hardest property in the system to get into—basically impossible with StarOptions unless you luck upon a cancellation. Not only is it highly desirable for skiing Beaver Creek, but it only has 34 lock-off units. The majority of the property is a hotel. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dioxide45 (Aug 23, 2022)

It looks like the insider was right about the 8/8 day, or at least close. Technically on or before 8/8. Also no Abound for those purchased after 8/8. We just don't know what is the definitive factor for "purchased".


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## Jayco29D (Aug 23, 2022)

I understand that a key question is whether mandatory resales enrolled by 8/8 will be eligible to use Abound without any additional purchase. This is a key question for me as an owner of a mandatory resale. 

My other question is why wouldn’t Marriott be able to “dismantle” VSN for mandatory resorts after 8/8? Is there something in the legal documents that says VSN will always exist for mandatory resorts? Or is this something that is implied because mandatory resorts pay a VSN fee?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 23, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> I understand that a key question is whether mandatory resales enrolled by 8/8 will be eligible to use Abound without any additional purchase. This is a key question for me as an owner of a mandatory resale.
> 
> My other question is why wouldn’t Marriott be able to “dismantle” VSN for mandatory resorts after 8/8? Is there something in the legal documents that says VSN will always exist for mandatory resorts? Or is this something that is implied because mandatory resorts pay a VSN fee?


The thinking here is that conduit into Abound is through an affiliation agreement between VSN and MVCDE (aka Abound). Without VSN, there is no way for Vistana owners to be members of Abound. VSN is the underpinning of Vistana owners to use Abound. So VSN will live on and thus mandatory resorts and their owners are required to be members of VSN.


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## DeniseM (Aug 23, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> I understand that a key question is whether mandatory resales enrolled by 8/8 will be eligible to use Abound without any additional purchase. This is a key question for me as an owner of a mandatory resale.



*YES*


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## kozykritter (Aug 23, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> I understand that a key question is whether mandatory resales enrolled by 8/8 will be eligible to use Abound without any additional purchase. This is a key question for me as an owner of a mandatory resale.


Understandably. The brief info on the Vistana website says those resales will have the opportunity to elect Club Points (aka use Abound) and also have their ownership count towards recognition levels. What it doesn't say is what the owner has to do to take advantage of the opportunity (enrollment fee, purchase, other action, nothing, etc).  Maybe they will address this in the Abound FAQs list on the site which is currently displaying a blank page.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 23, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Understandably. The brief info on the Vistana website says those resales will have the opportunity to elect Club Points (aka use Abound) and also have their ownership count towards recognition levels. What it doesn't say is what the owner has to do to take advantage of the opportunity (enrollment fee, purchase, other action, nothing, etc).  Maybe they will address this in the Abound FAQs list on the site which is currently displaying a blank page.


I have clicked that FAQ link many times this morning. I am sure I am now the one breaking it every time! At least I haven't take the whole site with it.


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## kozykritter (Aug 23, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I have clicked that FAQ link many times this morning. I am sure I am now the one breaking it every time! At least I haven't take the whole site with it.


Me too!  So we are the collective problem


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## grrrah (Aug 23, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Understandably. The brief info on the Vistana website says those resales will have the opportunity to elect Club Points (aka use Abound) and also have their ownership count towards recognition levels. What it doesn't say is what the owner has to do to take advantage of the opportunity (enrollment fee, purchase, other action, nothing, etc).  Maybe they will address this in the Abound FAQs list on the site which is currently displaying a blank page.


Nice about them counting toward recognition levels.  Does anyone know how EOY weeks count toward recognition tiers?  Are they points halved, or get the full credit for that year (and kept for non-use years)?

Just piecing things together, it sounds like Marriott could transition/dissolve VSN into Abound but that would require future resales to be mandatory enrolled.  But this way they can allow current VSN members free access, but future resale purchases would need to buy more to have access, and at the same time somehow try to weaken the attractiveness of VSN to encourage more enrollment/purchases in the future.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 23, 2022)

grrrah said:


> Nice about them counting toward recognition levels.  Does anyone know how EOY weeks count toward recognition tiers?  Are they points halved, or get the full credit for that year (and kept for non-use years)?


The annual points are halved.



> Just piecing things together, it sounds like Marriott could transition/dissolve VSN into Abound but that would require future resales to be mandatory enrolled.  But this way they can allow current VSN members free access, but future resale purchases would need to buy more to have access, and at the same time somehow try to weaken the attractiveness of VSN to encourage more enrollment/purchases in the future.


They could dissolve VSN, but that would eliminate the entire foundation of Vistana owners being able to participate in Abound. VSN is the gateway into Abound through the Master Affiliation Agreement between VSN and Abound.


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## Jayco29D (Aug 23, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The annual points are halved.
> 
> 
> They could dissolve VSN, but that would eliminate the entire foundation of Vistana owners being able to participate in Abound. VSN is the gateway into Abound through the Master Affiliation Agreement between VSN and Abound.



Has a master affiliation agreement between VSN and Abound been published that explains how it works? 

I have seen Tug members posting various points from legal documents but the explanations have been so confusing.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 23, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> Has a master affiliation agreement between VSN and Abound been published that explains how it works?
> 
> I have seen Tug members posting various points from legal documents but the explanations have been so confusing.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 23, 2022)

I don't believe what @dioxide45 just posted is the actual Master Affiliation Agreement. I think the above PDF has something to do with the legalities involved in modifying the Timeshare Plan and deeding Vistana weeks to the MVC Trust. The PDF above actually references the Affiliation Agreement, but I'm not sure if the full agreement has been disclosed anywhere yet, unless it is somewhere in the info VSN Owners have access to. Since that Agreement is what allows VSN Members to play in Abound, it might eventually get posted on the VSN side.


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## kozykritter (Aug 23, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I don't believe what @dioxide45 just posted is the actual Master Affiliation Agreement. I think the above PDF has something to do with the legalities involved in modifying the Timeshare Plan and deeding Vistana weeks to the MVC Trust. The PDF above actually references the Affiliation Agreement, but I'm not sure if the full agreement has been disclosed anywhere yet, unless it is somewhere in the info VSN Owners have access to. Since that Agreement is what allows VSN Members to play in Abound, it might eventually get posted on the VSN side.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 23, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I don't believe what @dioxide45 just posted is the actual Master Affiliation Agreement. I think the above PDF has something to do with the legalities involved in modifying the Timeshare Plan and deeding Vistana weeks to the MVC Trust. The PDF above actually references the Affiliation Agreement, but I'm not sure if the full agreement has been disclosed anywhere yet, unless it is somewhere in the info VSN Owners have access to. Since that Agreement is what allows VSN Members to play in Abound, it might eventually get posted on the VSN side.


Goog point. We will probably never see such Master Affiliation Agreement.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 23, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Have you read the Abound Exchange Procedures document already? Marriott released it yesterday. It may hold the language that you're looking for.


Yes I have, but that is not the Master Affiliation Agreement between VSN and the MVC Exchange Company. That is a separate agreement that has not been seen yet, to my knowledge.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 23, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Goog point. We will probably never see such Master Affiliation Agreement.



Normally, I think that's right, and it would never be made public. On the other hand, in this case, it seems that Affiliation Agreement is what conveys VSN Members' rights to be a member of Abound. As a result, VSN Members don't have to execute an individual Enrollment Agreement as MVC weeks owners do. So maybe that fact might dictate that the Affiliation Agreement becomes public. But who knows? I'm just guessing, obviously.


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## timsi (Aug 23, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I don't believe what @dioxide45 just posted is the actual Master Affiliation Agreement. I think the above PDF has something to do with the legalities involved in modifying the Timeshare Plan and deeding Vistana weeks to the MVC Trust. The PDF above actually references the Affiliation Agreement, but I'm not sure if the full agreement has been disclosed anywhere yet, unless it is somewhere in the info VSN Owners have access to. Since that Agreement is what allows VSN Members to play in Abound, it might eventually get posted on the VSN side.



The document posted refers to members  not units/ contracts who are part of VSN that became affiliated to ABOUND. It is probably wishful thinking but it could mean that if you currently have any unit in VSN, you can enroll all resale units in Abound.


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## kozykritter (Aug 23, 2022)

timsi said:


> The document posted refers to members  not units/ contracts who are part of VSN that became affiliated to ABOUND. It is probably wishful thinking but it could mean that if you currently have any unit in VSN, you can enroll all resale units in Abound.


Definitely wishful thinking because you're pushing hard in all your posts for your dream of them letting you enroll all your resale units into Abound! And why not? In the absence of facts, hope is all we really have


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## timsi (Aug 23, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> Definitely wishful thinking because you're pushing hard in all your posts for your dream of them letting you enroll all your resale units into Abound! And why not? In the absence of facts, hope is all we really have


You off target with your comment. I would not mind having them in Abound for convenience and I would be at the Presidential level but when I look at the points chart I find everything very expensive and I know we would not use Abound much. A "dream"? Very, very far from it.


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## Jayco29D (Aug 23, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Normally, I think that's right, and it would never be made public. On the other hand, in this case, it seems that Affiliation Agreement is what conveys VSN Members' rights to be a member of Abound. As a result, VSN Members don't have to execute an individual Enrollment Agreement as MVC weeks owners do. So maybe that fact might dictate that the Affiliation Agreement becomes public. But who knows? I'm just guessing, obviously.



So what document says that VSN needs to exist for mandatory resale owners to use it long term?

Just to clarify, does the 8/8 date mean mandatory resale owners lose their ability to trade in SOs? Or does it mean they will not be able to enroll for free in Abound?

I get confused with all the back and forth and speculation vs facts. It seems some facts exist in various documents Marriott has released but there are still issues of interpretation of what it means to Vistana owners.

Wouldn’t mandatory resale owners represent a small population? It seems like extra cost and logistics to keep VSN alive after Abound is launched.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 23, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> Just to clarify, does the 8/8 date mean mandatory resale owners lose their ability to trade in SOs? Or does it mean they will not be able to enroll for free in Abound?


We know for certain that any post 8/8 resale week (voluntary or mandatory) will not be able to enroll in Abound.

_Eligible Vacation Ownership Interests (“VOIs”):_
_Are those that are enrolled in VSN and were purchased from the Developer or through an authorized resale agent._
_VOIs that were enrolled in VSN prior to August 9, 2022 that were purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer will be given the opportunity to elect to receive Club Points and apply toward Owner benefit level._

_VOIs purchased through an unauthorized resale agent or HOA resale offer on or after August 9, 2022, and VOIs not enrolled in the VSN are not eligible._


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## kozykritter (Aug 23, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> So what document says that VSN needs to exist for mandatory resale owners to use it long term?
> 
> Just to clarify, does the 8/8 date mean mandatory resale owners lose their ability to trade in SOs? Or does it mean they will not be able to enroll for free in Abound?
> 
> ...


The simplest way to think of it is the VSN will continue on as it always has. All ownership in the VSN will have StarOptions options that they will use to exchange internally at 8 months. Nothing in the overall operation of the Vistana system is changing. Mandatory resales done in the future will have access to the VSN along with StarOptions. All Vistana owners will continue to have the ability to exchange their ownership through II including those enrolled in the VSN.

Certain ownerships enrolled in the VSN will be eligible to exchange their ownership through Abound to access MVC directly.


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## CPNY (Aug 23, 2022)

My question is question is what will happen with club dues if you own pre and post 8/8 resale units? I have resale weeks transferred to my  Vistana account prior to 8/9 one of which that hasn’t been merged with my existing account due to Marriott’s incompetence, yes it’s a Marriott incompetence issue because they are just awful at many things. Anyway, aside from their awfulness, I also have a resale that was sent over to the incompetence department last week, post 8/9. Once I fight to have the,merge that ownership with my abound eligible ownerships, will I continue to pay one club dues or will I have multiple dues? Also, where did they come up with 8/9 and why are they so incompetent at merging ownerships into one account?


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## dioxide45 (Aug 23, 2022)

CPNY said:


> My question is question is what will happen with club dues if you own pre and post 8/8 resale units? I have resale weeks transferred to my  Vistana account prior to 8/9 one of which that hasn’t been merged with my existing account due to Marriott’s incompetence, yes it’s a Marriott incompetence issue because they are just awful at many things. Anyway, aside from their awfulness, I also have a resale that was sent over to the incompetence department last week, post 8/9. Once I fight to have the,merge that ownership with my abound eligible ownerships, will I continue to pay one club dues or will I have multiple dues? Also, where did they come up with 8/9 and why are they so incompetent at merging ownerships into one account?


I suspect those post 8/9 weeks will work just like mandatory VOIs today. They will pay the lower VSN fee and pay the a la cart fees. I suspect if you have some weeks in Abound and some just still in boring old VSN, you will pay both the Club Fee and the VSN fee. These are all just guesses of course, we won't really know until they get things announced and they may still not provide an answer to this type of scenario.


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## CPNY (Aug 23, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect those post 8/9 weeks will work just like mandatory VOIs today. They will pay the lower VSN fee and pay the a la cart fees. I suspect if you have some weeks in Abound and some just still in boring old VSN, you will pay both the Club Fee and the VSN fee. These are all just guesses of course, we won't really know until they get things announced and they may still not provide an answer to this type of scenario.


This is what I’m afraid of…. Paying an additional 150 for one extra unit that’s not abound eligible. I wonder if they just do away with the VSN fee in favor of the club dues for all regardless of eligibility in abound. As my contact who has worked in SVV for 12 years who quit a few months ago to go work for Hilton said “Marriott is greedy and just an awful company to work for. They really messed things up at Vistana, most vistana employees left for a better company culture”. That really says a lot about MVW and not shocking to me in the least.


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## timsi (Aug 23, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> So what document says that VSN needs to exist for mandatory resale owners to use it long term?
> 
> Just to clarify, does the 8/8 date mean mandatory resale owners lose their ability to trade in SOs? Or does it mean they will not be able to enroll for free in Abound?
> 
> ...



The deeds mention the CCR documents and the CCR documents mention that the membership will automatically transfer and be vested in the new Owner. 

Killing VSN is not that easy, unless they want a big fight with the Vistana owners. There are certain VOIs that will trade well in Abound but many VSN owners will see their ownership devalued by 35% or MORE if they want to book the same resorts in Abound.


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## JIMinNC (Aug 23, 2022)

Jayco29D said:


> So what document says that VSN needs to exist for mandatory resale owners to use it long term?
> 
> Just to clarify, does the 8/8 date mean mandatory resale owners lose their ability to trade in SOs? Or does it mean they will not be able to enroll for free in Abound?
> 
> ...



Those answers will likely be found once some of the legal docs on the VSN side are revealed. I think there were some documents seen online by @dioxide45 and others earlier today. I think it's been discussed in the other long Abound thread in this forum. I think that thread also revealed the key date was 8/9/2022 not 8/8.


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## timsi (Aug 23, 2022)

MISTERY SOLVED

I just got off the phone with an insider. 8/9 was chosen because on that date both the Vistana and the MVC websites functioned continuously for more than two hours. That day will not be forgotten!


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## VacationForever (Aug 23, 2022)

timsi said:


> MISTERY SOLVED
> 
> I just got off the phone with an insider. 8/9 was chosen because on that date both the Vistana and the MVC websites functioned continuously for more than two hours. That day will not be forgotten!


I think you just got a new gig as a stand-up comedian.


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## Eric (Aug 24, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Seemed more than just them.
> 
> Maybe the “Insider” will send me a DM - I am willing to go up to $1000…
> 
> ...



Good thing nobody took you up on your childish bet or you would have been out $1000 LOL


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## DeniseM (Aug 24, 2022)

You can find the most current info here: 

https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/8...documents-please-limit-chitchat-posts.343203/


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