# Worried about cancellation...



## Egghead (Nov 3, 2009)

Hi

I just joined the forum today in the hope that you might be able to put my mind at rest. 

My wife and I went on a return explorer stay at the Westin Mission Hills and ended up signing an agreement to buy at their Desert Willows Resort. We spent 3 hours at the presentation, and finally succumbed to the pressure of signing. What cinched it for us was the fact that the presenter had told us (after noticing we were hesitating for some time) that we could sign, but had *20 days to cancel thereafter*. The only thing we would lose was the $55 admin charge, which was non-refundable. Thinking this gave us ample time to think about it more and work out if we could really afford the price, we went ahead and signed. After signing, I asked another associate  once more about cancellation - recounting we had 3 weeks to cancel -  and she also confimed this was the case and that here was a form available for this in the papers they gave us (she skirted over this very quickly - not surprisingly). 

After mulling it over some more that day with my wife, we started erring towards the timeshare not being suitable for us at this time and we did feel somewhat rushed into the decision. Thinking we still had plenty of time to mull things over more, it was purely by chance that I happened to be reading the agreement that same night and discovered the cancellation term was in fact 7 days - not 20, which had been one of the main reasons we had signed  . This is a pretty big mislead for me - we could easily have taken our time in thinking we had 20 days, and then just as easily found that when we did come to cancel that it was too late. Feeling somewhat cheated, I immediately faxed a self-prepared cancellation letter that night (the same day we signed) and asked them to acknowledge receipt of this and the fact that the agreement was cancelled. I then re-faxed this again a day later, again asking for confirmation. On both occassions, I heard nothing back. Today -which is day 5 - I have sent them a hard copy of the notice  I faxed (FedEx with a tracking recieipt), together with a host of contact options for them to let us know all is in order. I also emailed the two reps who sold us the timeshare, but have not heard back from either. 

I have since stumbled into this forum (which I am very happy about - you guys rock with the advice and support here!) and am now worried that as I have not used the specific form which is at the front of the report they gave me, they might argue that I have still not cancelled in the specific way they need me to. I am particularly concerned after reading this forum and noting that they are very particular with how cancellation is done. My agreement only mentioned sending them a written notice to cancel, which is what I have done (and actually very similar in form to the sample one given in the advice cancellations  FAQ on the home page of this forum). I'll now be sending them a fax of the signed notice from the report tomorrow, though, just to be sure. In all, I would have sent them 3 faxes and two hard copies all within the 7 day cancellation period. Do you think there is still scope for them to argue I haven't followed their directions and therefore the agreement is still valid? Surely 3 faxes and two letters are enough?! Again, I am only concerned after having read the advice in this forum and the fact that I have heard nothing back from them. I still have 2 days left within my cancellation period if there is anything else I need to do.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any advice/comments.  

PS. The wording on the agreement states that WVC is to refund us all moneys transferred to them as part of the agreement in the event of cancellation, which to me would also include the $55 admin fee. At this point, I just want to know we are out of the agreement but, contrary to what I was told,  do you know if the $55 should be refundable as well?


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2009)

Did the instructions specify the particular type of mail delivery you had to use?  It's a fine point - but some instructions specify US Mail, rather than FAX or Fed Ex.  If no particular type of delivery is specified, I think you have covered all your basis, and I wouldn't worry or expect to hear from them immediately.

I would notify my credit card company, as outlined in the FAQ.

I'm so glad you found TUG!  I bought from the developer at the first Maui resort before I discovered TUG and paid $45K for our first unit - it's now selling on ebay for $15K!   

Now you can take you time, do your homework, and find the perfect timeshare for your family, buy resale, and you won't even have to finance it!


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## DanCali (Nov 3, 2009)

Egghead said:


> Hi
> 
> I just joined the forum today in the hope that you might be able to put my mind at rest.
> 
> ...



Hi and welcome to TUG!

I went through this exact same thing not too long ago at a different Westin property and remember the feeling. We put the entire purchase amount on a credit card so we were quite concerned...

I am appalled that they told you you have 20 days - I am pretty sure misleading you like that is against the law and I'd encourage you to call the SVO Headquaters in Florida, ask to speak with someone as high up as possible, find out who regulates them, and file a formal complaint. You can wait doing this until after you get the refund.

Here is what I did in my case. First I sent a Fax to "SVO Pacific - Attn Document Administration" (fax number: 407-903-4718). I also sent them a certified letter to 

SVO Pacific Inc. 
ATTN: Document Administration
9002 San Marco Court
Orlando, FL  32819

The date that matter is the postmarked date, but i did use Express Mail to make sure they got it after 7 days. In hindsight, I'm not a fan of USPS and delivery confirmation is not timely, so Fedex is even better. The requirement in my case was to use the mail, but fax and mail (and even Fedex) can't hurt.

I also called the "new owner welcome team" phone line from the "welcome email" which I got the day after my purchase (888-619-2987). They are also located in the same place in Orlando and I requested to speak to the department that handles cancellations. I insisted on getting a live person, which I did, and asked them to confirm verbally and via email that they received my fax. Feel free to call them several times a day until they do it and ask for a supervisor too if necessary.

As a final backup, I also disputed the entire amount with the credit card company with the excuse that this was a real estate transaction cancelled in the time frame allowed by law. This also protects you from paying finance charges if you don't pay the amount in full by the due date (no reason to pay it if you expect a refund).

I did have a few tens of thousands of dollars charged to my credit card and was not sure what to expect after realizing how much the salespeople deceived me and how clueless we were. However, I will say that the people at the headquarters handling this do it by the book... (yes - I said something positive about SVO!  ) they did acknowledge receipt of my fax via email, and processed the refund in full to the last penny. From what it sounded like, the fax was enough to start the refund process even though I was required to use the mail. They told me up front that they have 20 days by law to process the refund and I did get the refund on the 20th day which was even before the credit card payment due date... The refund was actually applied retroactively with Amex to the day of the original debit, so this would have negated any finance charges. During these 20 days I called the new owner welcome phone line (which basically ends up with a reservations agent I think) a couple of times and they also confirmed that they were away of my recission.

It sounds like you did the right things - just bug long enough untilyou get a confirmation so you'll sleep better...

You should feel very good about the decision to cancel. The Desert Willow property, like most Starwood properties, is voluntary (StarOptions do not tranfer on resale). Consequently, it will be worth very little on the resale market so you would have lost over 90% of your investment very quickly. Take your time and do your research on TUG and other websites - and then decide if and what you want to buy. You should also keep an open mind to other timesharing systems like Marriott and Worldmark. 

P.S. I don't recall a specific $55 fee in my case, but it was in a different state. I believe they had the right to deduct some small amount if we didn't return all the paperwork. They did refund the full amount and never asked me for the paperwork.


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## Egghead (Nov 3, 2009)

Hi DeniseM - thanks so much for replying so quickly. The exact wording on the agreement is:

"You may cancel this agreement without any penalty or obligation within seven calendar days of the receipt of the public report or after the date you sign this agreement, whichever date is later. If you decide to cancel this agreement, you must notify the Seller in writing of your intent to cancel. Your notice of cancellation shall be effective upon the date sent and shall be sent to: [ADDRESS]. Your notice of cancellation may also be sent by fascimile to [FAX NUMBER] or by hand delivery. Any attempt to obtain a waiver of your cancellation rights is void and of no effect."

The wording in the cancellation page on the report is slightly different at the beginning:

"You may cancel the purchase of the time-share interest(s) in the time-share plan identified below without any penalty or obligation and are legally entitled to the return of all money and other considerations that you have given toward the purchase. If you decide to cancel your purchase, you must notify the developer in writing of your intent to cancel..." _{the rest is the same, including the 7 calendar days notice}._

Neither specifically state the form of mail we need to send the cancellation to them on, and both imply that faxing is enough (although as mentioned, we have sent hard copy by FedEx also). Hand delivery is out of the question, as they are based in FL and we are in CA. 

The latter passage above makes me think even more that the $55 admin fee, also specifically mentioned on the agreement, is refundable. Your point of putting a stop on the card (used for the $55) is a good one and I will stop this tomorrow. 

Thanks again for your response. We just want out right now, so are a little uptight about it all in the knowledge that we are still within the cancellation period and want to make sure they have no come-back on saying the agreement still holds. 

We can't believe we allowed ourselves to be suckered in on the sales pitch!  We'll be sure to take our time now on any future timeshare decisions with the great knowledge you and many others have imparted on this forum!


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## DeniseM (Nov 3, 2009)

I think you've got it covered, and once you challenge the charges with your CC company, you can relax and expect a refund around 20 days out.

Hope you will stick around!


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## l2trade (Nov 3, 2009)

People are supposed to buy timeshares for vacations.  Vacations are all about relaxing and having fun.  The time is right to buy when it won't keep you up at night.

Please know you are not alone.  Unfortunately, this story is all too common.  Many folks get pressured into overpriced purchases that aren't right for them.  It sounds like you are one of the lucky ones to find TUG so soon after.  You are doing everything right, reading TUG and making sure it all gets done on time.

I repeat what others said.  Take your time and do research on TUG.  Maybe even rent something and try it out first.  If and when you decide to buy, you will sleep better knowing you did your homework first.  You may even save $55 too.  ;-)


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## l2trade (Nov 3, 2009)

Egghead said:


> We can't believe we allowed ourselves to be suckered in on the sales pitch!  We'll be sure to take our time now on any future timeshare decisions with the great knowledge you and many others have imparted on this forum!



Every couple makes financial mistakes now and again.  The key is to learn from them and not blame yourselves.  Yes, you really dodged a bullet on this one.  When all is said and done, don't feel bad about it.  Instead, find time to celebrate together.  Saving thousands of dollars is certainly worth congratulating each other and spending money on a nice quiet dinner together.  Enjoy!  You both deserve it from what you've been through.  

I hope you stick around and learn what timesharing is truly all about... the good, the bad and the ugly.  The more informed consumers, the better for everyone.  It doesn't matter whether you someday decide to own or not.  You will be able to help family and friends from making some of the same mistakes.


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## Egghead (Nov 3, 2009)

DannyM - thanks so much for sharing your experience. It makes me feel much better knowing that here are others out there who have had a similar experience and that we are not alone in having worries over this!

In our case, as we were on a return explorer package, we had paid $1,700 as part of this package. It allowed us to return for 4 nights/5 days to Westin Mission Hills and also get 50,000 Starwood points in the event that we didn't sign up for the ownership deal. If we did sign up for the deal, then the $1700 we already paid would waive the $1230 deposit they required  (don't ask me where the extra $500 or so went - disappeared into thin air? Or more probably covered most of their costs for that 4 night stay). The rest - $11,565 -  would be financed on a 14.9% APR, which meant that the final paid figure would actually be over $22k (pretty horrendous!). This was for a 2 bed EOY villa with an additional $806/year MF (see - I'm learning all the acronyms already!). As we signed up for the finance the only additional amount we paid for the deal was that darned admin fee I keep going on about. It's pennies compared to what you ended up paying on your purchase (and I can only imagine the anxiety you must have had after that), but we feel so cheated right now that we want every penny back!

The address I needed to send the cancellation to is exactly the same as the one you have mentioned, except mine was to be addressed to WVC Rancho Mirage, Inc. The fax number was also the same. I haven't received a welcome email yet, but I am guessing the contact number you mentioned must also be the same. So thank you very much for that - I will ring and keep bugging them for that confirmation. I also thought about lodging a complaint, and will more than likely do so once I have had confirmation that the agreement is cancelled. I since discovered that we were also deceived in signing one of the forms saying we had received *and read * the public report (an important part of the purchase). We were, in fact, only given it with no indication of having to read or understand how important it was and were asked to sign the form. We live and learn, I guess...


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## Egghead (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks 12Trade. You are absolutely right. We live and learn. Having felt pretty horrendous about the whole thing, now having discovered TUG and coming to this forum has already made us feel a lot better. In actual fact, we are getting excited once more about the prospect of doing time shares in a much more informed way (don't worry - we'll make sure we do our homework, try first and then look at buying in a property of interest on a resale in our own time if we decide that is the right thing to do!). In the meantime, thanks again to you and the others for your much valued advice and comments.


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## Egghead (Nov 3, 2009)

DannyM - one more quick question. I presume you also had to join Interval International at the same time as purchasing the timeshare (as we did). If so, when you cancelled your purchase, does cancellation of II membership  also automatically follow, or do they need to be informed of your cancellation seperately? There is nothing in the II papers we signed that explains this, and of course I have still not received an answer from the reps I purchased from regarding this question either. Thanks.


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## DanCali (Nov 3, 2009)

Egghead said:


> DannyM - one more quick question. I presume you also had to join Interval International at the same time as purchasing the timeshare (as we did). If so, when you cancelled your purchase, does cancellation of II membership  also automatically follow, or do they need to be informed of your cancellation seperately? There is nothing in the II papers we signed that explains this, and of course I have still not received an answer from the reps I purchased from regarding this question either. Thanks.



Egghead - I don't believe they register you to II that fast. I cancelled within the 7 days and never got anything from II so I never really worried about it. I just wanted to get the refund...

I suppose you can call II to double check, but they must be pretty used to cancellations (especially in the TUG era) so they probably register people only after they know the transaction is going through.


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## Bill4728 (Nov 3, 2009)

Egghead said:


> DannyM - one more quick question. I presume you also had to join Interval International at the same time as purchasing the timeshare (as we did). If so, when you cancelled your purchase, does cancellation of II membership  also automatically follow, or do they need to be informed of your cancellation seperately? There is nothing in the II papers we signed that explains this, and of course I have still not received an answer from the reps I purchased from regarding this question either. Thanks.



When you buy Starwood from the developer, you get a Starwood corporate II account not a regular personal II account.  So if you are no longer a Starwood owner, you will not be a II member either.


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## grgs (Nov 3, 2009)

Did you pick up a price sheet while you were there?  Just wondering what the current prices are for WDW.

Best wishes on any future purchases.  If you have any questions about timeshares, this is the place to be!

Glorian


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 3, 2009)

Nice to find TUG - huh?

The SVN fee contains the fee for II - and therefore why there is (or was?) different SVN and non-SVN II account for SVO TSs.  I say 'was' because I am not sure what happened under the new II rules and I only own SVN TSs - so I only have one account that I know of (which I looked at a long time ago).


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## Egghead (Nov 4, 2009)

GRGS - they only pitched the one TS to us with details given in my earlier post (basically, $12,300 for a 2 bed (sleeps 4) 2 bath EOY lock off. The finance on this, however, meant that we would end up paying over $22k over 5 years. Also, the MF started at $806/year. They also mentioned a ~$20k package that would get us the same but an EY instead of an EOY). 

Last time round  (we were there about 14 months ago), they started at about ~$47k and steadily took us down package prices to ~$35k then to ~$18k.  Can't remember the details on those. I think they remembered from their previous pitch that we were one of the "cheaper" clients (we had previously explained to them we had little money left to spend in an attempt to stop the pressure we were feeling in taking one of the packages!), so they didn't bother going through the whole range this time. They just went straight in at the $12,300 level, which apparently was their cheapest package at WDW.

Thanks for the best wishes. You wouldn't believe how thankful we are in having found this forum at this time of need. We couldn't have asked for anything better, nor any more useful and kind advice/comments to help guide and put us at ease.


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## DanCali (Nov 4, 2009)

grgs said:


> Did you pick up a price sheet while you were there?  Just wondering what the current prices are for WDW.
> 
> Best wishes on any future purchases.  If you have any questions about timeshares, this is the place to be!
> 
> Glorian





Glorian - I happen to have pretty recent prices for Westin Desert Willow Villas from the summer. Prices are probably the same - I doubt they sold more since then to justify the usual "appreciation" in developer prices,  but MFs may now be higher (as usual...)

Columns are:

Season-weeks / Annual Price / EOY Price / SO / SP / MF - Annual / MF - EOY

Platinum Plus: 1-21, 50-52 $38,900 $25,300 148,100 72,000 $1393 $751
Gold Plus: 22-27, 36-49 $27,900 $18,200 81,000 48,000 $1393 $751
Gold: 28-35 $18,900 $12,300 56,300 23,500 $1393 $751

All units are 2BR LO, just like WPORV. I think they stopped selling smaller units.

I wish Starwood would realize the model of voluntary resorts is a complete failure. The resale value of these will be like WMH - literally 95%-99% less...


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## jerseygirl (Nov 4, 2009)

DannyM said:


> I wish Starwood would realize the model of voluntary resorts is a complete failure. The resale value of these will be like WMH - literally 95%-99% less...



Oh Danny -- they do realize it.  They just don't care ... and won't care until people stop buying from them because of it.  

When they first started selling Lagunamar ... the StarOption values were low.  People weren't buying .... so ..... suddenly, Lagunamar's StarOptions increased tremendously.  They assigned most Lagunamar (2-BR) weeks 148,100 SOs (same as Maui).  Case in point:

Lagunamar 2-BR lockoff summer week  148,100
WSJ 3-BR pool villa summer week  104,100
WSJ 3-BR Bay Vista summer week 125,000
WSJ 2-BR Hillside summer week  81,000
WSJ 2-BR Bay Vista summer week 95.700
Harborside 3-BR summer week 125,000
Harborside 2-BR lockoff summer week 95,700
Harborside 2-BR non-lockoff summer week 81,000

I've been a frequent "9:00 AM caller" recently, trying to score a particular resort for next summer.  Every time I call (at least 10 times in the last month or so), the "Sorry, no availability" response is followed up with, "Do you have any interest in Cancun?"   They can't give those weeks away to SO exchangers!!!!  But, they knew exactly what they were doing when they suddenly "upped" the SO values to spur sales.  Same concept applies to mandatory/voluntary.  Most retail buyers do not understand the program well enough to even notice the distinction, let alone ask about it.


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## DanCali (Nov 4, 2009)

jerseygirl said:


> Oh I've been a frequent "9:00 AM caller" recently, trying to score a particular resort for next summer.  Every time I call (at least 10 times in the last month or so), the "Sorry, no availability" response is followed up with, "Do you have any interest in Cancun?"   They can't give those weeks away to SO exchangers!!!!  But, they knew exactly what they were doing when they suddenly "upped" the SO values to spur sales.  Same concept applies to mandatory/voluntary.  Most retail buyers do not understand the program well enough to even notice the distinction, let alone ask about it.



Sorry for my ignorance onthis topic but what's wrong Cancun? Is it a bad resort? Doesn't seem that way because people seem to love that place in TripAdvisor... or is it a case that "it's just not Harborside"...?


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## Bill4728 (Nov 4, 2009)

DannyM said:


> Sorry for my ignorance onthis topic but what's wrong Cancun? Is it a bad resort? Doesn't seem that way because people seem to love that place in TripAdvisor... or is it a case that "it's just not Harborside"...?



I think that almost all the post here on TUG about the westin in Cancun have been very good.  

There have been some posts here which are a little negative about the Westin in Cancun & Priceville Hawaii because both the new resorts are voluntary


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## DeniseM (Nov 4, 2009)

DannyM said:


> Sorry for my ignorance onthis topic but what's wrong Cancun? Is it a bad resort? Doesn't seem that way because people seem to love that place in TripAdvisor... or is it a case that "it's just not Harborside"...?



The resort seems to be great, but buying a voluntary resort from the developer is an especially bad deal, because we know that the depreciation is going to be especially high at a voluntary resort.  Because they don't have staroptions, they don't hold their resale value well at all. In fact, Lagunamar is such an easy II exchange, I personally wouldn't buy there at all.  It is far more cost effective to exchange in.

As far as the post above, Lagunamar and Westin Princeville seem to always have a lot of availability through the SVN, as well as II.  Probably because Starwood now has 3 resorts in Hawaii, and because tourism to Mexico is way down everywhere.


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## DanCali (Nov 4, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> The resort seems to be great, but buying a voluntary resort from the developer is an especially bad deal, because we know that the depreciation is going to be especially high at a voluntary resort.  Because they don't have staroptions, they don't hold their resale value well at all. In fact, Lagunamar is such an easy II exchange, I personally wouldn't buy there at all.  It is far more cost effective to exchange in.
> 
> As far as the post above, Lagunamar and Westin Princeville seem to always have a lot of availability through the SVN, as well as II.  Probably because Starwood now has 3 resorts in Hawaii, and because tourism to Mexico is way down everywhere.



Yes - buying from the developer doesn't make much sense in most cases, and buying voluntary is the worst possible option because resale value will be minimal. Completely agree here!

My question was more related to why do tuggers who rave about WSJ and HRA but have difficulty exchanging there refuse to go on a vacation to Mexico? The reviews are great so this is where I am lost... I haven't been to any of those three places yet so I really don't know the answer here.


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## jerseygirl (Nov 4, 2009)

DannyM said:


> My question was more related to why do tuggers who rave about WSJ and HRA but have difficulty exchanging there refuse to go on a vacation to Mexico? The reviews are great so this is where I am lost... I haven't been to any of those three places yet so I really don't know the answer here.



Danny -- I didn't mean to imply that there was something wrong with the resort, assuming they fixed the "heated pool" issue.  (I donated a week to a charity auction last year and the people who bought it were NOT HAPPY -- they said no one used the pool the entire week, despite the cool swim-up bar.)  Anyway, assuming the pool will be heated this winter, it appears to be a lovely resort.  In fact, I'd like to visit it someday.  But, I sure wouldn't give up my HRA or WSJ StarOptions to get a smaller unit in Mexico ......

And:  

-- It's in a location with LOTS of lovely resorts and lots of inexpensive all-inclusive packages.
-- There's a segment of the population that worries about crime and health concerns in Mexico.  (Before someone jumps me, I'm not in that segment -- we spent week 52 last year in Puerto Vallarta and will be spending week 52 this year at the Grand Mayan Riveria Maya).  But, I do have a lot of friends who won't go to Mexico ... 

My post was meant to point out that for Starwood to "equate" Lagunamar to Maui, and to value it higher than Harborside and Westin St John ... well, that's just a great big old joke.  Their decisions are based on sales potential, not on reality.  The same applies to the "voluntary" concept.  They can tell "Mr. and Mrs. Prospect" that they won't be able to trade into all these lovely locations if they buy on the resale market.  That's why they do it.  

They don't do anything that doesn't benefit sales.  That was my point (in a long, roundabout way, sorry!).


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## DeniseM (Nov 4, 2009)

DannyM said:


> My question was more related to why do tuggers who rave about WSJ and HRA but have difficulty exchanging there refuse to go on a vacation to Mexico? The reviews are great so this is where I am lost... I haven't been to any of those three places yet so I really don't know the answer here.



Mexico is a very easy exchange - WSJ and Harborside are very tough.  I think that makes their perceived desirability much higher.  

Also - I might use my expensive Staroptions from WKORV to go to WSJ or Harborside, but Mexico is such an easy exchange, I would feel that it was a down-trade or a waste of Staroptions, because there are so many other ways to go to Mexico for less $$$.


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