# Westgate - non original owner



## mrsstats (May 22, 2012)

I already know how everyone feels about Westgate.  But I am an owner at Flamingo Bay.  Bought resale a few years ago.  They are now charging non original owners $450 to make an exchange into the resort.  Anyone else hear anything on this.

A friend also has been told this is being done as of April, 2012.  She is going to contact an attorney.


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## timeos2 (May 22, 2012)

mrsstats said:


> I already know how everyone feels about Westgate.  But I am an owner at Flamingo Bay.  Bought resale a few years ago.  They are now charging non original owners $450 to make an exchange into the resort.  Anyone else hear anything on this.
> 
> A friend also has been told this is being done as of April, 2012.  She is going to contact an attorney.



Yeah, lots of luck with that! They did the same to owners almost 10 years ago now & no lawsuit won a reversal of that total owner rip off. Welcome to the Kings world of owner shafts.


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## Kola (May 22, 2012)

mrsstats said:


> I already know how everyone feels about Westgate.  But I am an owner at Flamingo Bay.  Bought resale a few years ago.  They are now charging non original owners $450 to make an exchange into the resort.   Anyone else hear anything on this.
> 
> A friend also has been told this is being done as of April, 2012.  She is going to contact an attorney.



I have not heard about this but your post is not clear. 
 You said "...charging non original owners $450 to make an exchange into the resort. " Do you mean only  Flamingo owners or all Westgate owners ?  Do you mean an "exchange" or a confirmation of a floating week ? What if one wants to make an exchange via II ?  I know Westgate Resorts operates its own exchange system for Westgate owners who want to try other Westgate resorts/locations. Unless some special rules apply to Flamingo, one does not need to use their service.


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## mrsstats (May 22, 2012)

My friend wanted to exchange her Westgate Vacation Villas for Flamingo Bay. She was told it was $450 since she was a non original owner.

When I tried to set up my week for 2013 for Flaming Bay (which I own but an not an original owner) they wanted to charge me.  I don't remember the fee.  I hung up with that person and called back and was not charged anything.


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## Kola (May 23, 2012)

mrsstats said:


> My friend wanted to exchange her Westgate Vacation Villas for Flamingo Bay. She was told it was $450 since she was a non original owner.
> 
> When I tried to set up my week for 2013 for Flaming Bay (which I own but an not an original owner) they wanted to charge me.  I don't remember the fee.  I hung up with that person and called back and was not charged anything.



It looks like you were not exchanging into Flamingo, simply booking a floating week. There should be no charge for that in ANY resort. The first person  you spoke to most likely misunderstood what you wanted to do. 
Generally, Westgate Resorts try to have owners use their INTERNAL exchange service for a fee identical to that charged by II.  This makes sense because Westgate don't want to deposit all their unsold weeks into the II inventory thereby missing an opportunity to generate extra revenue. It also makes sense for those individual owners who are interested in trying another Westgate location. As indicated before, Westgate owners have no obligation whatsoever to use Westgate INTERNAL exchange for any resorts. Obviously, the use of II or RCI exchange systems requires a membership fee in addition to an exchange fee, domestic or international. 

As to the reported "$450 exchange fee into Flamingo", that mystery remains unsolved at least untill more facts can be confirmed.


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## mblosser (Jun 16, 2012)

*WARNING! DO NOT BUY WESTGATE!  Under ANY circumstances!*

Tuggers -- please, do not do any further business with the thieves and frauds that populate the halls of Westgate Resorts.  Do yourselves a favor --stay away or walk away!

We treat you like sh*t, steal your money, and then dismiss you with the characteristic arrogance of a one percenter.  Hyperbole?  Naw -- that's just Westgate's corporate credo.  Learn more:

We are having huge issues with resale purchases at the Painted Mountain Resort.  We are working with David at selltimeshare.org.  We have been satisfied with David's communication and have had several purchase transactions with his company.  

We would recommend David and his firm, but Westgate ... well, the only thing we can say about Westgate is the timeshare world would be a better place without this sh*thole of a company.  

Our issues are with Westgate and their unmitigated arrogance toward resale buyers.  Here is an excerpt of an email I recently wrote summarizing the issues which have arisen with our WPM purchase in just the past 2 days:

This email is to summarize emergent issues with our recently acquired
Westgate Painted Mountain (WPM) ownerships.

In our opinion, Westgate is engaged in fraudulent practices and is
committing conversion/grand theft with regard to their administration
of our WPM weeks.

Here is what transpired yesterday and today.  I was told the following
by Westgate representatives, all of which violates the stated rules
(specific applicable rules are referenced) in Westgate's 2012 Owners
Guide, here's a link to the Guide:

https://oam.westgateresorts.com/oam/pdfs/ownersguides/westgateOwnersGuide_en.pdf

- All annual usage weeks may be booked only 60 days or less prior to
check-in (see Owner's Guide pp. 6 (Item 4) and 39 -- the correct
booking window is 11 months or less).

- All annual maintenance fees must be prepaid in order to book next
year's usage (see Owner's Guide p 10 (Item 19) -- the correct payment
requirement is annual fees must be paid either by Jan 2 of the usage
year or 30 days prior to the check-in date, or risk the reserved space
being cancelled)

- In order to exchange a usage week for another Westgate resort, a
$450 fee must be prepaid (see Owner's Guide p 7 (Item 6) -- the
correct fee is $140, and the exchange is good for 2 years after the
start of the usage week, and the fee is not payable until the exchange
is actually booked).

- I cannot pay a fee and postpone my annual usage at WPM to a future
year -- in other words, this year's usage must be used this year, or
be lost forever (see Owner's Guide p 7 (Item 6) -- the correct fee is
$140, this year's usage can be postponed for 2 years after the start
of the usage week, and the fee is not payable until the exchange is
actually booked).

I am going to guess that Westgate will argue that the Owner's Guide
only applies to owners who bought from the developer.  However, I
looked fairly carefully through it, and did not see anything that
distinguishes the rights and privileges of "developer" and "resale"
weeks. 

Further, any resale week must include the same rights,
privileges and restrictions with which it was originally sold.
Westgate is not a party to a resale transaction, other than having the
ROFR -- their only role is to effectuate a name change in their
records.  In other words, the name change is not an opportunity for
Westgate to impose new rules or restrictions on the new owner
(especially not ones that discriminate against the new owner because
they didn't buy from the developer) that were not in place prior to
the transfer.

The other extremely vexing issue with all of this -- we were not told
by anyone of the 60 day rule until AFTER we paid our 2013 maintenance
fees in advance (the demand for which is in conflict with Westgate's
own maintenance fee payment requirements, as outlined above).  In other words -- SURPRISE! -- now that we have your money, here are some unconscionable and ridiculous booking restrictions.  Had we told you these BEFORE you paid, we know you would not have paid or bought this timeshare.  So we waited -- and sprung them on you AFTER we had your money.  NICE!!

If Westgate really doesn't want resale weeks out there, instead of
screwing with new owners like us, they could have simply exercised
their ROFR, acquired the weeks, and then been in control of them.
What they have done instead is to attempt to exercise control over
weeks they do not own (and have no right to modify).

I guess it's clear that this has been upsetting to say the least.  I am an older person and it seems to me that the days of expecting clear and concise communication, bundled with fair, honest, equitable, and respectful treatment, have vanished.  Companies get away with murder.  No one cares. It sucks when one's only recourses are to fight (sue) or walk away.

So my advice: if you are considering Westgate, DON'T!  If you own Westgate, walk away if you can.  Only if we all deprive this criminal enterprise of its monetary lifeblood will we have any chance of being heard and understood.


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## Kola (Jun 16, 2012)

You said: "All annual usage weeks may be booked only 60 days or less prior to
check-in (see Owner's Guide pp. 6 (Item 4) and 39 -- the correct
booking window is 11 months or less)."

Fixed weeks are YOUR weeks to use each year, but their use is, of course, subject to you prepaying annual maintenance and taxes.  That's normal and applies to all owners. 

"All annual maintenance fees must be prepaid in order to book next
year's usage (see Owner's Guide p 10 (Item 19)" 

Of course. You will find the same or similar rule in all resorts. There is a discount offered for prepayment before due date and interest added after due date. 

" In order to exchange a usage week for another Westgate resort, a
$450 fee must be prepaid ...... and the fee is not payable until the exchange
is actually booked. "

You can exchange via Interval Int'l into a great variety of resorts worldwide for their published exchange fees that are payable when the request is made, not when the week is actually booked. If the request is cancelled the fee is reimbursed.


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## mblosser (Jun 16, 2012)

*You Are Incorrect, Sir*

Your quote:

"All annual maintenance fees must be prepaid in order to book next
year's usage (see Owner's Guide p 10 (Item 19)" 

is not what Q19 Page 10 says in the 2012 Guide:

19. Q: When is the HOA fee due?

A. We encourage you to pay your HOA fee upon receipt. To avoid late fees, payments must be received no later than January 2nd of the year being billed. Complete information is included in the invoice(s) mailed. If you wish to deposit with Internal International or Westgate Cruise and Travel Program or
any other exchange or you would like to make a Developer Exchange, all fees much be paid prior to the due date. To use a confirmed reservation, a Float Week owner must pay all HOA fees by the collection due date each calendar year or by thirty (30) days prior to check9in, which ever occurs earlier. Any reservation confirmed prior to the due date will be subject to cancellation if the owner does not pay the fees by the due date.

This answer says pay by January 2 or 30 days prior to check-in, as I stated in my post.  Where did you get your information (is it older than 2012)?


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## Dave*H (Jun 17, 2012)

The "Owners Guide" is unlikely to be the source of truth.  These are typically simplified, summarized explanations of the actual rules.  What does it say in the Rules and Regulations covering the ownership?


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## Kola (Jun 17, 2012)

mblosser said:


> Your quote:
> 
> When is the HOA fee due?
> 
> ...



Frankly, I am not sure what the problem is ? 
Is it possible that you have missed part of the sentence: "...by the collection due date each calendar year or by thirty (30) days prior to check-in, which ever occurs earlier."

Keep in mind that for most owners the collection date of Jan 2nd  always occurs earlier except for owners who own say January week 2 or 3.  Since the 'collection date' is Jan.2 these owners must pay 30 days prior to check in, i.e. could be by early December. 

As to exchanges, I would recommend using Interval or other exchanges for far greater selection and easy transactions.


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## Mel (Jun 17, 2012)

Kola said:


> Frankly, I am not sure what the problem is ?
> Is it possible that you have missed part of the sentence: "...by the collection due date each calendar year or by thirty (30) days prior to check-in, which ever occurs earlier."
> 
> Keep in mind that for most owners the collection date of Jan 2nd  always occurs earlier except for owners who own say January week 2 or 3.  Since the 'collection date' is Jan.2 these owners must pay 30 days prior to check in, i.e. could be by early December.


I think what she is saying is that they won't let her reserve a week without prepaying - BEFORE January 2, which is when the fees would be due if she wants to use a week in 2013.


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## mblosser (Jun 18, 2012)

*Big Picture*

Don't get lost in parsing words here.  The big picture is what is important.  Westgate will stop at nothing in its quest to destroy resales.  Without healthy resale markets, we are all screwed.  Everyone frets about timeshare value losses -- well here is a huge cause.

Westgate thinks they can get away with modifying long established rules for the use of deeded timeshare weeks, many sold 20 or more years ago.  When those float weeks were sold, owners could reserve any week 1-50, 11 months in advance, pay the fees when due January 2, and exchange in-house for $140.  Westgate thinks a deed transfer constitutes an opportunity to change all the rules to whatever ridiculous level they feel they can get away with.

IMO, maybe I'm wrong on this, but isn't Westgate just the property manager, with no authority to modify anything material with respect to use of the property -- with their only recourse being the ROFR?  Once they pass on that, the new owner gets the same ownership, same rules, rights and privileges, as the old (and all other current) owners.  Seems like simply retaliation against resales, nothing more.

Westgate is clearly trying to destroy these deeded weeks and their owners, especially through limiting use week reservations to 60 days or less prior to check-in.  Little to nothing is left inside of 60 days, except crummy mid-summer weeks in Phoenix.  Westgate is doing this to benefit themselves and the uninformed owners who paid the excessive developer prices.  

Think about it -- does anyone know of any other timeshare anywhere that limits annual usage to picking through "60 days or less leftovers"?  The only examples I can think of are late exchange deposits -- where this sort of penalty is appropriate and should be expected.  Actual deeded annual usage owners -- the shortest timeline I am aware of is 9 months on some Shell Clubs (for non-home resorts).  

I ask you, don't you feel 60 days or less is unconscionably restrictive?  If not, how can it be justified as a change, effective only on a person-to-person resale?  How would you feel if your resort suddenly changed your 12 month window to 2 months?  Or you bought a 1-52 week float resale that you "thought" allowed reservations a year in advance, only to learn after the purchase and after paying your next year's fees, that instead of 12 months it's 2 months?  Not very happy, I'll surmise.

Tuggers ought to be able to see this as a major threat, and show some outrage.  This kind of destruction of timeshare value affects all of us, keeps happening, and needs to be stopped.  Folks, how about some support?


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## Kola (Jun 18, 2012)

Mel said:


> I think what she is saying is that they won't let her reserve a week without prepaying - BEFORE January 2, which is when the fees would be due if she wants to use a week in 2013.



I don't know which week he/she is interested in but YES, the rule is you have to PREPAY before Jan. 2nd each year.  As pointed out earlier, this applies to ALL weeks EXCEPT  January weeks when the 30-day  advance requirement would apply. 

What I don't agree with is that this rule forces an owner of say week 25, 2013  to prepay SIX months in advance and the owner of, say week 50 or 51, 2013  to prepay almost a YEAR  in advance.  At the same time, if you own week 3 or 4 you only prepay 30 days in advance of your 2013 occupancy.

But then aren't we all faced with similar 'unfairness' when, say, booking air or bying some sport tickets. I may have to pay months in advance to get the flight I want, you may get one a couple of weeks before departure. 
We have to live with some 'unfair' rules all the time, don't we ?


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## tschwa2 (Jun 18, 2012)

What I think he is saying is that resale owners have to prepay when making a reservation- so for a summer week reserved at 12 months it would be in July prior.  A retail owner reserving 12 months prior could make the reservation in July of this year and wait until Jan 2 to pay MF.  

To make it worse, he was told he had to pre pay to reserve so he prepaid 12 month in advance and then was told resale owners could only reserve 60 days in advance.

Westgate is not the only Management company that has different rules in terms of prepaying MF to reserve.  Starwood had been doing this a S Broadway Plantation but not for SVN (developer purchase) members.  They have changed it recently to make SVN members prepay when depositing with an exchange company but not for personal use.  

Resale Westgate owners need to get a copy of the CC&R's to find the rules.  I have heard that 
Westgate did write many gross inequities into the original rules for their more recent resorts.  For the older resorts they are trying to impose it retroactively but they can't do that.  Request the CC&R from your HOA and read it carefully. Also if the deeds are online look at the original filing.  If they are not online it would be worth a couple of dollars to get copies of the original filings.  Complain constantly about the unfair practices.  It probably won't change things but it can't hurt to bombard them with complaints.  Talk it up at the resort.  Even if it doesn't directly effect retail purchasers, it will when they go to sell if resale owners can't get reservations until 60 days prior. Westgate deserves most of its bad publicity and unhappy owners shouldn't have to back down.


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## Mel (Jun 18, 2012)

Kola said:


> I don't know which week he/she is interested in but YES, the rule is you have to PREPAY before Jan. 2nd each year.  As pointed out earlier, this applies to ALL weeks EXCEPT  January weeks when the 30-day  advance requirement would apply.
> 
> What I don't agree with is that this rule forces an owner of say week 25, 2013  to prepay SIX months in advance and the owner of, say week 50 or 51, 2013  to prepay almost a YEAR  in advance.  At the same time, if you own week 3 or 4 you only prepay 30 days in advance of your 2013 occupancy.


You are not understanding.  Most of us don't have a problem with having to pay the maintenance fees BY January 2nd, and that is common among most timeshares.  If you own a January week, you get the advantage of paying close to the use date.  If you own New Year eve (week 52) you have to pay a year in advance.

What's being suggested by Westgate is that a floating week owner must pay at the time of reservation.  Thus, if they were to reserve a January 2013 week in January 2012, the resale owner has to then pay the fees in January 2012, while someone who purchased from the developer can wait until 30 days before use.

And not allowing resale owners to reserve more than 60 days out makes their week virtually useless.  Only those who purchase from the developer are then able to reserve the most popular weeks, because none of those weeks will be available 60 days out.  Westgate got their money from the original purchasers.  If they want to change the rules, they have to purchase the weeks back first, and write those new restriction into the sales contract when they sell the weeks again.  The ability to reserve more than 60 days out is not something that be sold as an add-on which doesn't transfer with the resale.  Westgate is hoping these resale owners will decide their weeks are useless and abandon them back to Westgate, so they don't have pay the money to exercise the ROFR - they get someone else to pay the money, and end up with the week anyway.

And any reputable company that somehow managed to have rules like these would insist the fees be paid WHEN the reservation is made, not BEFORE the reservation is made.  It is perfectly reasonable to require fees to be paid early to deposit to an exchange company - because the right to that week is being transferred to someone else.  The resort no longer has recourse against the owner if the fees are not paid.  When reserving at your own resort, they have to recourse of not allowing you to occupy the unit, so they don't need to require the fees that far ahead.


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## mblosser (Jun 19, 2012)

*FINALLY someone gets that this may be a good reason to set your hair on fire*

What if Wyndham, Shell, Starwood/SVN, or other companies start acting to diminish deeded week owner values in a similar manner?  Why not set resale booking windows at 1 month, 1 week, or 1 day?  What is stopping these criminals?  Not much, it seems.  Brazen disregard is the rule.  

Tuggers: Rendering deeded weeks worthless?  Seems like a big deal...

Anyway ... today I called Westgate, demanded someone who handles problem resolution.  Got "Ricky" who represented his role as an assistant director in owner relations.  Actually, was very satisfied with his help ... if it sticks.

Was able to make 2013 use reservations, did not have to prepay 2013 fees ... so what he did complies with the 2012 Owners Guide.  He said his Director and the Reservations Director were going to sort out the problem ... but there is an April 2012 memo (I have not seen it but Ricky summarized it) regarding new fees and restrictions on resales.  Apparently, it's a poorly written memo that seemingly is only supposed to apply (the new higher fees/shorter lead times for resale owners) on in-house exchanges, and not to annual use reservations.  He wasn't 100% assuring on this but as he put through my reservations, that is a good sign.  I am supposed to hear back if all is well tomorrow.

To be frank, I'm not thrilled that resale owners are treated worse/differently, but I recognize that Westgate has right to do whatever it wants on anything that is an add-on/program they created and operate (e.g., if they want to charge $100,000 for a resale owner to do an in-house exchange, that would be their right, it just would be incredibly stupid).  Just as long as they do not attempt to unlawfully change CCRs on a timeshare (Painted Mountain) that was not even their development at the outset (built by Grandvista LLC back in 1998).

It may have helped that I told him I wanted to see the Declaration, Bylaws and CCRs, and asked him where it says they have right to (discriminate and) change booking windows down from 11 months to 2 months for a subset of owners.  And I shared the fact I have already spoken with a class-action attorney (true).  It raises my B.P. to have to get nasty with these folks to get them to simply treat owners with respect and give us the rights we bought.  I'd prefer not having to fight over what seems obvious, but we all have to stand up or else we will lose out.

More later, hoping for a peaceful end to this.


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## Hewbaby36 (Jul 17, 2012)

I am in the same boat.  I called in today and was BLOWN away at what was taken away from me.  According to the rep it was the May 8th right to use memo.  I had all the perks and things as owners who purchased from the developer before that but it was taken away with this memo.  Who can I contact about representation.  We NEED to get a lawyer for this.  It can't be legal. I have a float week (red or all season) at westgate smoky mts.  I can only book 60 days out now.  So how is it a float if I can only book 60 days out.  For a transfer to another resort was $150 now $450, no owner night reservation discounts for single nights anymore.  How can this be legal?
HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## rrsafety (Jul 17, 2012)

Hewbaby36 said:


> I am in the same boat.  I called in today and was BLOWN away at what was taken away from me.  According to the rep it was the May 8th right to use memo.  I had all the perks and things as owners who purchased from the developer before that but it was taken away with this memo.  Who can I contact about representation.  We NEED to get a lawyer for this.  It can't be legal. I have a float week (red or all season) at westgate smoky mts.  I can only book 60 days out now.  So how is it a float if I can only book 60 days out.  For a transfer to another resort was $150 now $450, no owner night reservation discounts for single nights anymore.  How can this be legal?
> HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Jeez, if much of the worth of TS ownership can just be taken away, where is the worth in even paying a dollar for them? How do you know what you even have from year to year?


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## timeos2 (Jul 17, 2012)

rrsafety said:


> Jeez, if much of the worth of TS ownership can just be taken away, where is the worth in even paying a dollar for them? How do you know what you even have from year to year?



It isn't legal but that never stops the convicted crooks at Wastegate. They depend on the extreme cost of fighting them to thwart any single owner from legal action and hide the owners list to prevent any group actions. Wyndham recently got slapped for similar actions so hopefully soon owners will act to stop this abuse.


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