# Living thru Hell Week Aruba right now



## Weimaraner

I know this is always a sensitive topic because it involves [a group that] takes over the Marriott Aruba properties, both Surf and Ocean, for a week in January. But I'm suffering through it right now so I am feeling like talking about it. 

I have my small child for her first trip to Aruba and it's been ruined by inconsiderate parents who let their kids ages 7 to young teen run free in packs without supervision. Not just a few kids...we mean large groups of kids who have taken over to disrupt, steal and harass others trying to enjoy a pleasant vacation. Not everyone is bad and I've met parents of other small children who are friendly anc provide the same level of supervision for their 6 year olds as I do. I'm talking about the others. 

What have I seen firsthand? Guests complaining of young boys stealing towels, young children jumping cannonball style into the lazy river, swimming backwards, making competition of swimming under my guest, throwing footballs near small children, and jumping off the rocks into the lazy river. Today was last straw when a teen threw a kid in the hot tub. He saw me and said "what is she going to call the police?" And soon after security showed up and I pulled him aside to talk to him when the teenager started to verbally assault me for telling on him. I am afraid of running into him again. Security said they received several complaints. If there were parents or chaperones doing their job, life would be better. 

I'm embarrassed to also say we went to a cultural showcase at the Palm Beach mall where some of these kids moved to sit on stage, picked up a dancer's headdress to jump around and worst of all...jumped on stage to dance and bow as these young ladies tried to walk forward to be introduced and receive recognition for performing four Aruban dances. I would have hauled my kid off stage but these parents thought it was cute and took pictures. 

Don't get me wrong I love the Aruba Marriotts but I wish I had heeded the warnings about this week. This is a great place to stay, except this week!!! We are Premier Plus owners snd I will avoid this week at all costs in the future.


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## joewillie12

I will be there this July 4th week at the Surf. I guess I should expect the same but hopefully not. Sorry to hear.


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## Weimaraner

You'll be fine in July. It's a week in January that all heck breaks lose. A big group that plans a conference and holds events on beach. I heard of it before but really wanted to take my daughter in January thinking it would not impact us. You would think a woman with a small child would receive a little respect, but no such luck.


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## GregT

Wow, I'm so sorry to hear this - and such a lovely property.  I hope you get away from the packs and get to enjoy some of Arubas beauty. 

It's a great property - and I will note to visit in Feb. 

Best,

Greg


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## dioxide45

Did you rent a car? I know you should be able to enjoy the resort, but Aruba has some fantastic beaches that are not to be missed. Check them out if you have a rental car. Perhaps getting off site for the day will make things more bearable.


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## SueDonJ

GregT said:


> Wow, I'm so sorry to hear this - and such a lovely property.  I hope you get away from the packs and get to enjoy some of Arubas beauty.
> 
> It's a great property - and I will note to visit in Feb.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



I'm sorry to hear it, too, but that's what some of us say every year when these reports are posted.  This isn't a new nuisance!

If I were an owner at Aruba Surf Club or Ocean Club I'd be contacting Marriott execs and my resort boards with my concerns.  As an onsite guest, whether owner or not, I'd be insistent on meeting the resort GM in order to voice my concerns in person.

IMO it's ridiculous that Marriott allows this to continue year after year after year!


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## Mr. Vker

joewillie12 said:


> I will be there this July 4th week at the Surf. I guess I should expect the same but hopefully not. Sorry to hear.



We were there 4th of July week 2012. Actually at the Ocean Club. The beaches were crowded like Mid-Summer Myrtle Beach. Nearly every square foot of sand occupied.


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## Mr. Vker

SueDonJ said:


> I'm sorry to hear it, too, but that's what some of us say every year when these reports are posted.  This isn't a new nuisance!
> 
> If I were an owner at Aruba Surf Club or Ocean Club I'd be contacting Marriott execs and my resort boards with my concerns.  As an onsite guest, whether owner or not, I'd be insistent on meeting the resort GM in order to voice my concerns in person.
> 
> IMO it's ridiculous that Marriott allows this to continue year after year after year!




I agree completely.


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## dougp26364

I think of I had a phone that could take video, I'd be shooting some of the shenanigans and send them directly to MVCI with a well worded complaint.


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## SueDonJ

Mr. Vker said:


> I agree completely.



There have been a few reports that Marriott responded to legitimate, detailed complaints with compensation.  As sad as it sounds, I really think that this won't be stopped until the compensation equals or exceeds whatever financial benefit Marriott is gaining from this group.  That's why I'd make sure to voice my concerns - because apparently, with this situation, nothing else seems to make a difference to Marriott.


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## joewillie12

Thanks for the heads up. I've read that's a very busy week. I don't mind kids and families having fun and horsing around a little but rude and obnoxious I will not tolerate. I have a 3 bedroom so I'll have a large crew to take care of any of the trouble makers.haha. Also bringing a very early riser to reserve  those chairs and beach spots that will be at a premium for that week. 





Mr. Vker said:


> We were there 4th of July week 2012. Actually at the Ocean Club. The beaches were crowded like Mid-Summer Myrtle Beach. Nearly every square foot of sand occupied.


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## Pompey Family

What exactly is this particular group?


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## jlp879

dougp26364 said:


> I think of I had a phone that could take video, I'd be shooting some of the shenanigans and send them directly to MVCI with a well worded complaint.



Better yet, post them on the Internet.  Post on YouTube or make a Facebook page for "Kids behaving badly at Marriotts".  See how fast that negative publicity gets their attention!


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## ilene13

This may not be the actual "hell" week group as they go to Aruba during NYS regents week.  Regents week is next week.  This could just be a group of extremely poorly behaved children.


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## topmom101

I have read reports on this same group causing havoc at the Surf Club on other Aruba Forums. In fact, the post by Waimaramer pales in comparison to others I have seen.  As I understand, the Resort prepares for their arrival by having extra security on hand. It is bewildering to the rest of us why this kind of behavior is allowed to continue. Apparently, this very large group throws lots and lots on money around.


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## Sunbum

ilene13 said:


> This may not be the actual "hell" week group as they go to Aruba during NYS regents week.  Regents week is next week.  This could just be a group of extremely poorly behaved children.



If this is true, you have not seen anything yet! It will get way worse.


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## Sunbum

Here is a very lengthy and detailed report on the topic from Trip Advisor. It is commonly referred to as Hell Week. (I hope this works).

http://www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowTopic-g147247-i144-k6062681-Hell_Week_0-Aruba.html


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## EKniager

Pompey Family said:


> What exactly is this particular group?



http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204399


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## Steve A

We go every other year for two weeks to the Ocean Club including the fourth of July. Crowded but not overwhelming. Plenty of palabas available in the back.  Surf Club seems much more crowded.

[inappropriate comment deleted]


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## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> There have been a few reports that Marriott responded to legitimate, detailed complaints with compensation.  As sad as it sounds, I really think that this won't be stopped until the compensation equals or exceeds whatever financial benefit Marriott is gaining from this group.  That's why I'd make sure to voice my concerns - because apparently, with this situation, nothing else seems to make a difference to Marriott.



Very true. I was told it had gotten better after Marriott reps met with group representatives a few years back. Unfortunately, memories are short and especially with the new Ritz at the adjacent property I'd expect them to be especially responsive to complaints this year. 

Sadly, it appears the parents have absolved themselves of parental responsibilities for their vacation, and unsupervised children are a recipe for disaster.

I am surprised that with the new Ritz they aren't really upping security this year. While owners certainly have the right to book their owned weeks, Marriott can strictly enforce resort rules to ensure a wonderful vacation experience that all guests deserve.

Please let's remember not to let this conversation devolve with ethnic or religious aspersions....


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## Saintsfanfl

ilene13 said:


> This may not be the actual "hell" week group as they go to Aruba during NYS regents week.  Regents week is next week.  This could just be a group of extremely poorly behaved children.





Sunbum said:


> If this is true, you have not seen anything yet! It will get way worse.



It is true. This week is not NY Regents Exams, also known as hell week. It is next week.


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## Mr. Vker

joewillie12 said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I've read that's a very busy week. I don't mind kids and families having fun and horsing around a little but rude and obnoxious I will not tolerate. I have a 3 bedroom so I'll have a large crew to take care of any of the trouble makers.haha. Also bringing a very early riser to reserve  those chairs and beach spots that will be at a premium for that week.



It was just busy. I can't remember any moments of frustration with other folks on vacation at the same time. Just tons of them.  And hey, you are in Aruba! Enjoy. Sounds like you have a plan of attack.


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## LUVourMarriotts

ilene13 said:


> This may not be the actual "hell" week group as they go to Aruba during NYS regents week.  Regents week is next week.  This could just be a group of extremely poorly behaved children.



I checked the calendars of several of the schools and they are definitely off this week.  I think this is "hell" week this year.  I guess it doesn't necessarily coincide with NYS Regents.

I would definitely go to the management team and express your concern about the quality of your vacation.  Explain to them that you are not just irritated, but concerned for your own safety.


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## dougp26364

jlp879 said:


> Better yet, post them on the Internet.  Post on YouTube or make a Facebook page for "Kids behaving badly at Marriotts".  See how fast that negative publicity gets their attention!



Probably a better idea than sending them to a dead letter file at Marriott. If just one goes viral (facebook might help) with the Marriott name as a tag, it might get the necessary corrective action going. Sometimes one has to shine a light on the problem for it to be seen, recognized and then dealt with in an appropriate fashion.


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## Pompey Family

EKniager said:


> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204399



Ah, I see. A bit like spring break then?


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## optimist

Steve A said:


> [inappropriate comment deleted]



Every year this thread rears its ugly head and with a sickening feeling I read the comments knowing it is eventually going to degenerate to this one, that was deleted.

The truth is, if someone is active enough to  post here then they already know about "this week" and should avoid booking at that time if it really bothers them. 

Why not just make a sticky that lets people know about the issues associated with this week so that we are done with new threads concerning "a certain group of people" every year, around this time.


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## csxjohn

optimist said:


> ..Why not just make a sticky that lets people know about the issues associated with this week so that we are done with new threads concerning "a certain group of people" every year, around this time.



Read the stickys at the top of the Marriott forum and you'll see this one.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204519

I'd like to see this expanded to other areas and resorts.


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## SueDonJ

optimist said:


> Every year this thread rears its ugly head and with a sickening feeling I read the comments knowing it is eventually going to degenerate to this one, that was deleted.
> 
> The truth is, if someone is active enough to  post here then they already know about "this week" and should avoid booking at that time if it really bothers them.
> 
> Why not just make a sticky that lets people know about the issues associated with this week so that we are done with new threads concerning "a certain group of people" every year, around this time.



I don't now and never have had a problem with folks posting their experiences at the Aruban complex every year sometime in January.  In fact I think it's one of TUG's greatest strengths, that we can advise each other about any number of things which folks may want to avoid at resorts all over the world.

I personally don't have a problem with the group involved at Aruba being "outed" without insult but, apparently, for some folks it's impossible to separate simply naming the group from disparaging the group.  In deference to the folks who see insult, I suggest that anyone who needs to know should search TUG for "Marriott Aruba January" or something similar - there are a number of threads going back years on the topic.

As of a few weeks ago there is now a sticky in the Marriott forum - "Event Weeks" at Marriott Resorts - which serves a self-explanatory purpose.  But I still appreciate threads which detail what's currently happening at any resorts, and don't think it's necessary to automatically close every thread related to this particular situation.  We mods will continue to selectively edit posts in order to remove info which may be construed (correctly or wrongly) as insulting, but I prefer to leave the threads open so that witnesses have a place to report what they're seeing now.


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## Ridewithme38

SueDonJ said:


> I personally don't have a problem with the group involved at Aruba being "outed" without insult but, apparently, for some folks it's impossible to separate simply naming the group from disparaging the group.



There is a difference between naming the group, which has already happened in this thread, "NYS Private School Students" and incorrectly naming them based on bias.  That is the disparaging part.


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## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> There is a difference between naming the group, which has already happened in this thread, "NYS Private School Students" and incorrectly naming them based on bias.  That is the disparaging part.



We'll have to agree to disagree.  I don't think that simply attributing a race/sex/religion/whatever label to a group is an insult in itself.  For example, it's possible to call me an Irish Catholic Bostonian without me seeing it as an intent to insult me and all those like me.  

But, as I said, with this particular topic deference is being given to those who do see insult in such a practice.  There's no need to further debate whether insult is intended or not.


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## Ridewithme38

SueDonJ said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree.  I don't think that simply attributing a race/sex/religion/whatever label to a group is an insult in itself.  For example, it's possible to call me an Irish Catholic Bostonian without me seeing it as an intent to insult me and all those like me.
> 
> But, as I said, with this particular topic deference is being given to those who do see insult in such a practice.  There's no need to further debate whether insult is intended or not.



But would it be more accurate to say 'stay away from the Bar's in Boston during Red Sox playoff games there are alot of Irish Catholics in them and the bars tend to have fights and the people drink too much" or Stay away from the Bar's in Boston during Red Sox Playoffs because they can get very busy with a lot of people drinking too much and getting into fights.

One reinforces a negative stereotype for no reason, since the 2nd one is just as accurate information.  When you are attributing hell week to anything beyond 'NYS Private school students' you are reinforcing a negative stereotype that doesn't need any help.


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## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> But would it be more accurate to say 'stay away from the Bar's in Boston during Red Sox playoff games there are alot of Irish Catholics in them and the bars tend to have fights and the people drink too much" or Stay away from the Bar's in Boston during Red Sox Playoffs because they can get very busy with a lot of people drinking too much and getting into fights.
> 
> One reinforces a negative stereotype for no reason, since the 2nd one is just as accurate information.  When you are attributing hell week to anything beyond 'NYS Private school students' you are reinforcing a negative stereotype that doesn't need any help.



Like I said, Ride, there's no need to debate it.  Any further attempts to do so will be deleted.


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## Old Hickory

SueDonJ said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree.  I don't think that simply attributing a race/sex/religion/whatever label to a group is an insult in itself.  For example, it's possible to call me an Irish Catholic Bostonian without me seeing it as an intent to insult me and all those like me.



On my only trip to Aruba we saw way too many people wearing Boston Bruins jerseys and Boston Red Sox caps.   But they were nice folks, regardless.


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## jimf41

Old Hickory said:


> On my only trip to Aruba we saw way too many people wearing Boston Bruins jerseys and Boston Red Sox caps.   But they were nice folks, regardless.



And don't forget that us Irish Catholic New Yorkers have a bigger warship parked in our harbor than those uppity Irish Catholic Bostonians.

As far as the "hell week" threads this year, I think they've been pretty civil and to the point. The only mention of bias seems to be from the folks that are warning against it.


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## Beaglemom3

jimf41 said:


> And don't forget that us Irish Catholic New Yorkers have a bigger warship parked in our harbor than those uppity Irish Catholic Bostonians.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Oh yeah ? We have a few ballistic submarines just parked off shore................
> (Even worse - Red Sox T-shirt wearing Irish Catholic Bostonians )  :hysterical:
> 
> 
> Edited to add: I've been to the Aruba Marriotts and would like to go again.
> I appreciate the information on this thread as to a very, very, very busy time there and I will plan around it.
> 
> I am in the dark about who the group is and would rather not know. It's an "obtuse benefit" !
> 
> I've been to Daytona during bike week and all the bikers were friendly and polite, but their bikes were extremely loud and I wince at loud noises. So, I avoid Daytona during bike week.
> 
> 
> 
> -


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## topmom101

I am confused, why are so many people trying so hard to hide or cover up the facts? I believe that people need to be accountable for their actions. Only recently have I become aware of this ongoing problem at the Surf Club. But it seems to me that if people go out of their way to avoid this particular travel week or look for compensation from Marriott for being forced to endure a hellish vacation then a REAL problem exists. So why not point a finger to the culprits? I don't get it. I don't care who they are; white, black, yellow, catholic, Jewish, protestants, new yorkers, bostonians. 

I am so tired of the political correctiveness. If people behave badly, say so. Hold them accountable. You expect Marriott to step up and yet some of you aren't even willing to say it like it is. Do you act the same while on vacation? Do you destroy or thrash property? Do you allow your children to run wild disrespecting people? Well, if not, why in the name of God, would you protect them?

I love the fact that some of you are coming up with various ways to be politically correct in ways to describe this group, some as far as labeling them private school kids. Well, let me tell you something. I highly resent that. My husband and I made tremendous sacrifices to give our 3 children the best private/catholic school education we could afford and they are well mannered, productive and respectful young adults. 

Let's not reinforce horrendous behavior. How fair is that to the families that work hard all year long and look forward to their yearly January vacation? We throw them under the bus in favor of the bullies? Because that's what you are doing when your solution to them is " have another drink, switch your travel week, go to another beach". Right is right and wrong is wrong. Period.

Maybe I am having a bad day but this is wrong in so many ways.


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## BJRSanDiego

dougp26364 said:


> If just one goes viral (facebook might help) ...Sometimes one has to shine a light on the problem for it to be seen, recognized and then dealt with in an appropriate fashion.



I took a look at the two Marriott Aruba Facebook pages and was surprised that no one has posted any displeasure.  All that I saw were a variety of very old "feel good" comments.  No negative comments at all!   

I know from past personal experience that Marriott Corporate monitors those pages and that they are quite responsive to negative comments.  In one case, I received a call from the president of the Marriott facility (where I was staying) only 3 hours after I posted on FB.  As a result of my FB post, they fixed a problem for which I had previously made them aware but which they weren't originally willing to address.  Yes - - only 3 hours and the problem fixed! 

So I heartily recommend that people negatively affected by the "hell week" post their displeasure on-line.

There is also a Marriott customer care hot line:   800-860-9384

But I think that FB is more visible and will get more action.


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## WFP

The two of us were in Boston for the w/e, at the custom house.  I wont say too much but one of US wore a Peyton Manning Bronco's Jersey to several bars.  It was a feminine cut jersey...so make your own inference.  Luckily, the wearer is also half Irish .  

The so called bartender's bartender at the CH, well I guess if you are not a friend of his he doesn't treat you that well.

I have no problem with providing all identifying information regarding the perpetrator's of unacceptable behavior.  It just must be done in a manner that is focused on the identity with no editorial spin or worse.

/WFP


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## Ridewithme38

topmom101 said:


> some as far as labeling them private school kids. Well, let me tell you something. I highly resent that. My husband and I made tremendous sacrifices to give our 3 children the best private/catholic school education we could afford and they are well mannered, productive and respectful young adults.



But, they ARE private school children, the vacation period is specific to NYS school breaks, because of that, the only real inference that can be made is that these are NYS Private school children.  

Just because you have raised well mannered, productive and respectful young adults, that does not mean that ALL private school children are that way......


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## LDT

SueDonJ said:


> If I were an owner at Aruba Surf Club or Ocean Club I'd be contacting Marriott execs and my resort boards with my concerns.  As an onsite guest, whether owner or not, I'd be insistent on meeting the resort GM in order to voice my concerns in person.
> 
> IMO it's ridiculous that Marriott allows this to continue year after year after year!



I have sent email after email, letters to the board of directors and even Mr. Marriott himself voicing my concern after running in to this group a few years back.  All you get is phone call saying that they have every right to be there just like anyone else.  Sadly, the Marriott Corp is all about money.  They could care less about us owners.


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## SueDonJ

topmom101 said:


> I am confused, why are so many people trying so hard to hide or cover up the facts? I believe that people need to be accountable for their actions. Only recently have I become aware of this ongoing problem at the Surf Club. But it seems to me that if people go out of their way to avoid this particular travel week or look for compensation from Marriott for being forced to endure a hellish vacation then a REAL problem exists. So why not point a finger to the culprits? I don't get it. I don't care who they are; white, black, yellow, catholic, Jewish, protestants, new yorkers, bostonians.
> 
> I am so tired of the political correctiveness. If people behave badly, say so. Hold them accountable. You expect Marriott to step up and yet some of you aren't even willing to say it like it is. Do you act the same while on vacation? Do you destroy or thrash property? Do you allow your children to run wild disrespecting people? Well, if not, why in the name of God, would you protect them?
> 
> I love the fact that some of you are coming up with various ways to be politically correct in ways to describe this group, some as far as labeling them private school kids. Well, let me tell you something. I highly resent that. My husband and I made tremendous sacrifices to give our 3 children the best private/catholic school education we could afford and they are well mannered, productive and respectful young adults.
> 
> Let's not reinforce horrendous behavior. How fair is that to the families that work hard all year long and look forward to their yearly January vacation? We throw them under the bus in favor of the bullies? Because that's what you are doing when your solution to them is " have another drink, switch your travel week, go to another beach". Right is right and wrong is wrong. Period.
> 
> Maybe I am having a bad day but this is wrong in so many ways.



Over the years on TUG there have been multiple reports to the mods asking for the topic to be forbidden and/or immediate closure of any related threads.  A compromise of not naming the group, so as to inhibit perceived insult, has been enacted instead.

It might not be the ideal solution but it's one that works for TUG purposes - to advise about a negative situation at particular resorts.  It's not necessary to know the "who" in order to do that.

Owners/guests of the resorts are certainly able to escalate their concerns off-TUG to those in a position to do something concrete about it, and that's what I strongly suggest.  I agree with you that how it's being handled now by Marriott is only a deflection, and a poor one at that.


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## Ridewithme38

SueDonJ said:


> Over the years on TUG there have been multiple reports to the mods asking for the topic to be forbidden and/or immediate closure of any related threads.  A compromise of not naming the group, so as to inhibit perceived insult, has been enacted instead.



Hmm, i didn't realize i shouldn't have been mentioning the group, i am sorry.  I thought NYC Private School children would have been politically ok.


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## SueDonJ

LDT said:


> I have sent email after email, letters to the board of directors and even Mr. Marriott himself voicing my concern after running in to this group a few years back.  All you get is phone call saying that they have every right to be there just like anyone else.  Sadly, the Marriott Corp is all about money.  They could care less about us owners.



It's so discouraging to hear this but we do, repeatedly.  I only keep repeating the suggestion because eventually there must be strength in numbers?


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## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> Hmm, i didn't realize i shouldn't have been mentioning the group, i am sorry.  I thought NYC Private School children would have been politically ok.



Ride, it's very easy to see through your spin.  Knock it off.


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## EKniager

topmom101 said:


> I am confused, why are so many people trying so hard to hide or cover up the facts? I believe that people need to be accountable for their actions. Only recently have I become aware of this ongoing problem at the Surf Club. But it seems to me that if people go out of their way to avoid this particular travel week or look for compensation from Marriott for being forced to endure a hellish vacation then a REAL problem exists. So why not point a finger to the culprits? I don't get it. I don't care who they are; white, black, yellow, catholic, Jewish, protestants, new yorkers, bostonians.
> 
> I am so tired of the political correctiveness. If people behave badly, say so. Hold them accountable. You expect Marriott to step up and yet some of you aren't even willing to say it like it is. Do you act the same while on vacation? Do you destroy or thrash property? Do you allow your children to run wild disrespecting people? Well, if not, why in the name of God, would you protect them?
> 
> I love the fact that some of you are coming up with various ways to be politically correct in ways to describe this group, some as far as labeling them private school kids. Well, let me tell you something. I highly resent that. My husband and I made tremendous sacrifices to give our 3 children the best private/catholic school education we could afford and they are well mannered, productive and respectful young adults.
> 
> Let's not reinforce horrendous behavior. How fair is that to the families that work hard all year long and look forward to their yearly January vacation? We throw them under the bus in favor of the bullies? Because that's what you are doing when your solution to them is " have another drink, switch your travel week, go to another beach". Right is right and wrong is wrong. Period.
> 
> Maybe I am having a bad day but this is wrong in so many ways.



I don't comprehend the point of this post.  The "culprits" have been pointed out, i.e., a large group of misbehaving kids, typically in Aruba during NYS Regents exam week.  What more is relevant?  If you don't care about the color of their skin or their religious beliefs what are you complaining about?  You say, "If people behave badly, say so." *It was said and has been annually.  *Who has been protected?  What is politically correct?  No other information is important to the story.

Not all Irish people get drunk at bars.  Not all Jewish people negotiate hard with jewelers.  Not all black people do drugs.  And so on.  Leaving irrelevant descriptors out, or what I think of as "noise" is just common sense.  Being considerate of others does not equal political correctness.  Mother's use to teach their children that "two wrongs don't make a right."  The offenders have been pointed out.  We don't need to do it with a broad brush or in a disrespectful manner.


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## chris5

EKniager said:


> I don't comprehend the point of this post.  The "culprits" have been pointed out, i.e., a large group of misbehaving kids, typically in Aruba during NYS Regents exam week.  What more is relevant?  If you don't care about the color of their skin or their religious beliefs what are you complaining about?  You say, "If people behave badly, say so." *It was said and has been annually.  *Who has been protected?  What is politically correct?  No other information is important to the story.
> 
> Not all Irish people get drunk at bars.  Not all Jewish people negotiate hard with jewelers.  Not all black people do drugs.  And so on.  Leaving irrelevant descriptors out, or what I think of as "noise" is just common sense.  Being considerate of others does not equal political correctness.  Mother's use to teach their children that "two wrongs don't make a right."  The offenders have been pointed out.  We don't need to do it with a broad brush or in a disrespectful manner.



Well, there is value in "shaming" an organization for the misconduct of its members. The offenders as far as I can tell have not been outted. Mind you, I said organization, not ethnic, religious or racial group. This happens all the time.  When rowdy students act up, it's fair to say where these students go to school, whether it's PS 29, Notre Dame University, Morehouse College, or Yeshiva University.  That would be relevant to me.  

Outrageous behavior by members of a particular organization is a poor reflection on the organization and the organization itself might take some action.  It's useless to me to say that these folks are from New York or are Jewish, Black, Indian, or White-- as it tars everyone from New York and linkeage with general groups is meaningless, so I agree with you there.

I do understand the point made by the rant to which you responded.  It does seem to me that there might be an element of political correctness and over-sensitivity here.  I do agree we ought to be careful how we label "nuisance weeks."  I'd be interested in how the folks (and organization or families) who are misbehaving at week 3/4 in Aruba identify the week in question and perhaps we ought to use their description of the week. I'm sure they would take offense at us calling their week, Hell Week. And if they don't take offense, maybe a Satanist would take offense.


----------



## psguru

It's not the NYC Private School families.  That's a different week.  It's crowded by by no means is it the "Hell Week" people are referring to.

Those who have been down there when this group is there (I've been way too many times when they're there and will never again) know who I'm talking about.  It's a horror show.  We check every year when their break is because they don't have a traditional Christmas break.

The kids have no accountability because
a. their parents are not around at all 
b. they've been told they're entitled to do as they please
c. they think the world revolves around them

Some of my favorites over the years...
- a 3 year-old in the lazy river by himself
- a group of kids playing football in the lazy river
- a kid walking over to my table as a waitress was taking our order and interrupting to tell her to get his food immediately
- a kid playing blackjack at $50 a hand, hitting on 18 routinely
- the Marriott Hotel lobby taken over until about 5am
- high school age girls struggling to walk on the beach with high heels on

The biggest problem is that Marriott still allows them to stay there because of the crazy amount of money they spend between conference rooms, the casino and the bar.  

I'm going down in February so i'm in the clear!


----------



## EKniager

Well color me surprised.  This is news!  

I've always been under the impression there was just one "Hell Week" and it was during the NYS Regents Exam week.  Are there now two Hell Weeks?  You know... a second one when "they're there."


----------



## vacationhopeful

Personally, I had little interest in ever going to Aruba before ... think coral rock in big span of salt water ... think Holloway ... now I have NONE.  And I really don't care which month or week.

Sorry, but there must be other islands in all the seas on Earth ... why would you ever subject yourselves and dear family members to this crap? I would be hitting social media like Facebook, U-Tube & LinkedIn.com, etc ... and be unnamed... get the dumb faced "idiots" to like your post and add comments. The more hits the better ... If you can't fight them, join them and let them sink themselves like the rotten apples that they are.

Pictures of chairs in the pool, trashed fitness center -- 3 days of THAT -- without your name (can't threaten the un-named) ... videos of the kids idea of fun (lazy river, gambling, wilding, threats) ... and areas shut down due to damage.... 

Be creative -- Marriot is too busy counting their profits for that week --- wonder how happy they will be to see the other 51 weeks being less profitable with all those "fun" posts circulating all over the internet.


----------



## SueDonJ

EKniager said:


> Well color me surprised.  This is news!
> 
> I've always been under the impression there was just one "Hell Week" and it was during the NYS Regents Exam week.  Are there now two Hell Weeks?  You know... a second one when "they're there."



I'm wondering, too.  Although there's been confusion in other years, too, where the timing didn't coincide exactly with the NY Regents Exams.  Unless there's a different explanation I think the FAQ thread is okay mentioning Weeks 3 or 4, "usually corresponding to …"


----------



## jlp879

chris5 said:


> It does seem to me that there might be an element of political correctness and over-sensitivity here.  I do agree we ought to be careful how we label "nuisance weeks."  I'd be interested in how the folks (and organization or families) who are misbehaving at week 3/4 in Aruba identify the week in question and perhaps we ought to use their description of the week. I'm sure they would take offense at us calling their week, Hell Week. And if they don't take offense, maybe a Satanist would take offense.



I definitely agree that we are being too over-sensitive here.  The organization has a name.  They have a website that lists their trip dates and all their group activities.  No different from what a large convention would do.  

It is much more derogartory to label this "Hell week".  We should call it like it is - _[deleted]_.  

If they are the group in question, I say we post their information to the sticky, which posts their calendar, and leave it to anyone plan accordingly.


----------



## topmom101

EKniager:

No, THEIR actions have been pointed out not the group itself.  

The group itself DOES NOT deserve consideration from the very same people it annually terrorizes.

So let me get this straight, this particular group of "xxxxxans" (whoever they are) can break rules, verbally abuse other members, destroy property, etc. and you want to be considerate of their feelings by not labeling them for what they truly are?  Give me a break.


----------



## csxjohn

So there's no confusion their brochure says their event starts on Sun. Jan 18Th so this is that group's week at the resort.  (_[Deleted.]_)


----------



## Saintsfanfl

I have no business in this thread but all this back and forth got me searching to find out who this group is that everyone is afraid to name. From the on goings of the thread  it started to look like it was not actually private school children, which was blamed earlier in the thread. So it clearly is a _[deleted]_ that actually has nothing to do with the NYS Regents Exams? What is politically worse, falsely blaming the bad reports on the wrong group or naming the actual group? Are we that afraid to be called prejudice? It's not like the years of horrendous stories on so many websites were made up based on prejudice. I don't have a prejudice bone in my body so race or religion make no difference to me but every person, family, and group should be held accountable.

That said, large groups especially with children tend to lower inhibition. They tend to behave worse than at home. Small family groups by nature are more well behaved than they would be at home. If you put any very large group at that resort with plenty of youth it is very likely that you would have a similar result.


----------



## topmom101

This same topic is being discussed right now on Facebook among Surf Club Owners. Here are a few excerpts:

My in laws were there during this week one year. Kids peeing in elevators! They witnessed that.

We woke up at the crack of dawn to reserve our seats at the pool, while away from the chairs our things were removed and thrown way back on the lawn and this same group decided it was their chairs. The group was large and intimidating... we opted to go to the beach and keep our distance. We will not travel again during the month of January

I happened to stay at the Ocean Club the week it opened and they were all down there. They brought a guy to sleep on the beach to get all the huts so no one else could get one.

Marriott employees HATE the week. Very rude group and kids run wild.

We were there and it is true !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!RUDENESS on the part of the guests, both the adults and the teenagers !!!!!!!

I've heard of the week and the group also. I know a few years ago we were told firsthand by friends who are there for the month that some of the kids were hurting/killing the lizards. Disturbing

I don't think anyone has mentioned cultural differences. We all have been splashed by the pool, this is destruction of property... example is the side bars on the elevators being pulled out!!

I have heard several housekeeping employees mention how filthy the rooms are when they leave. Trash everywhere. I have also heard they were bounced from the Hyatt several years ago.

the people at Champions didn't want to work that week. They would march back to the kitchen and demand to be in charge of cooking their brought food. 

I have to admit the Garbage room was indeed clean. WHY,BECAUSE they left their trash in the Hallway in front of the ice machine. Upon getting in the elevator we were pushed to the back by kids trying to overcrowd the elevator. I just remember how rude and all the jewelry on these kids. Sorry guys, you hit a sore nerve with me and this horde of belligerent folks. Enough said.

There are several reports, through the years, of damage outside the villas that this group are occupying. Damage to chairs, biminis, palapas, pools, lights, railings, etc. They surely don't get charged for that. We do.

So that there is no confusion, these are the kind of people that some want to be considerate of? I say no. Shame them and expose them for who they really are. Every single Marriott owner of that week should band together... they should storm the lobby and demand action. I would use every available social media to expose them and, further, I would publicly shame Marriott for burying its head in the sand.

Ever since I learned of this this morning, I also have done research on the subject and some of the stories I read are too disgusting to repeat.


----------



## SueDonJ

csxjohn said:


> So there's no confusion their brochure says their event starts on Sun. Jan 18Th so this is that group's week at the resort.  (Sephardic Aruba)



Just to clarify - the brochure that's available for download on the website mentions Sunday, January 18th through Friday, January 23rd.  Those days/dates do not correspond to the 2014 calendar, and in fact the website/brochure has not been updated since the first year that the activities were negatively described on the web.  It's been quite a few years since the group has used the internet to organize this trip.

As far as trying to pin down whether it's Week 3 or 4, or tie it to the exact dates of NY Regents Exams schedules, we haven't been able to do it because it changes every year.  Suffice it to say that if you don't want to be a part of it, you probably shouldn't risk a stay either week.


----------



## SueDonJ

_And now with my moderator hat on:_

It doesn't hurt my sensibilities if this group is called out by name, but I'm not here to force others to adopt my sensibilities.  I want folks to be able to continue posting reports about the situation (hopefully with a resolution one year that it's been stopped by Marriott.)  Whether we think it's right or not, over the years too many TUG threads about it have had to be shut down because the focus shifted from the negative behavior to the people exhibiting it, and then TUG Admin and mods were flooded with complaints by folks who took insult.

Several years ago it was decided that the only way the discussion could remain non-contentious was if the group is not called out by name.  Whether you agree with that or not, please accept it as the price of being allowed to discuss the group's activities.  I don't want to lock these threads every year but that's where we're headed.

I'm removing the group's name from all posts in this thread and will not post further admonitions about it.  If you want TUG to be a place where you can continue to learn how this situation evolves in the future, you'll respect the compromise that's been reached.


----------



## Mamianka

csxjohn said:


> So there's no confusion their brochure says their event starts on Sun. Jan 18Th so this is that group's week at the resort.  ([Deleted.])




Me again - retired NYS teacher.  Our Regents exams are held per the calendar posted in the sticky.  HOWEVER - private schools can hold class - or NOT - whenever they wish, as long as they get in their correct number of days and hours, to keep their accreditation. For a couple of years, I taught flute lessons at a local Anabaptist (Hutterite) community.  They taught their own kids on site K-8 - like home-schooling, but on a BIG scale - and sent their HS kids to out local HS.  (Now they have purchased a former monastery, and have their own HS, including boarding students from other Hutterite communities.)  These people are INCREDIBLY polite and upright citizens - and periodically I would get a call : "Mrs. M?  Do not come for lessons today - we are all going FISHING because the weather is so nice - we stayed in school when the other kids had a Snow Day."    Then they would bring me a couple of nice trout . . . 

So the community/school that is coming the week BEFORE Hell Week ( and that cannot be ALL public school kids from NY state - please!) is a private school that keeps their own calendar and hours.  They could come ANYTIME.  The fact that they reserve their *camp* a year ahead should allow people to avoid them.  None of us should HAVE to - but until (if ever?) we apply enough pressure on Marriott (and it actually does any good . . ) then we just have to dodge them.  I have no skin in this game - we have NO interest of going to Aruba at that time of year - and would actually CALL the resort directly to ask about large groups, before we put in for a trade.  If I heard this about ANY place - I would call the resort and ask.  

We should not have to do this.  There are a LOT of things we should not have to do , or put up with, in life.  But until they change - I just choose to be elsewhere.  

M


----------



## Weimaraner

Just to follow up, I called the front desk yesterday after the hot tub incident and had to leave a message expressing my concern about our safety at the pool. I was unable to get thru to the front desk but an operator said she would hand deliver the message. I have received a few voice messages following up and each time the staff refers to loud, noisy and unruly and unsupervised children. One of the messsages says they can not do anything about it because they are owners. I have tried to call back but the no one answers except an operator who transfers me to a number that disconnects. Maybe the Premier Plus hotline ? My husband who is back home told me to walk on down to address in person but I have mellowed out a out a bit since I stayed off property today. And thank you to the TUGger who sent me a PM to tell me how to avoid this week in future. I don't mind a little horseplay but when a teenager berates me in front of my child, who I am trying to raise as a courteous and respectful young lady (also with expectations that she should be treated by men as a lady)..that just set me off. I know some people wish I never started this thread but if I helped any TUGger from ruining a long awaited vacation on my favorite island then it was worth it to me. So please come to Aruba and the Aruba Marriotts, just not this week or Regents week (or so I hear)


----------



## GrayFal

jimf41 said:


> And don't forget that us Irish Catholic New Yorkers have a bigger warship parked in our harbor than those uppity Irish Catholic Bostonians.
> 
> .



So true!


----------



## topmom101

Sue, please allow me to apologize.  Yes, I admit, I am having a rather difficult day, however, I'd like to assure everyone reading this my rant was not based on racism or discrimination. I really don't care who those people are... I don't know who they are but if I did I would not condem an entire race/religion.  I am an Italian from NY and if the group in question were NY Italians I would not take offense because their bad behavior is on them and not a reflection of who I am.  I believe in rules and laws and proper behavior and I believe in accountability.  Our actions determine how others view us and therefore judge us.  

Every actions has a reaction and consequences follow. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone and again apologize if my words were misconstrued.


----------



## Wally3433

topmom101 said:


> I am confused, why are so many people trying so hard to hide or cover up the facts? I believe that people need to be accountable for their actions. Only recently have I become aware of this ongoing problem at the Surf Club. But it seems to me that if people go out of their way to avoid this particular travel week or look for compensation from Marriott for being forced to endure a hellish vacation then a REAL problem exists. So why not point a finger to the culprits? I don't get it. I don't care who they are; white, black, yellow, catholic, Jewish, protestants, new yorkers, bostonians.
> 
> I am so tired of the political correctiveness. If people behave badly, say so. Hold them accountable. You expect Marriott to step up and yet some of you aren't even willing to say it like it is. Do you act the same while on vacation? Do you destroy or thrash property? Do you allow your children to run wild disrespecting people? Well, if not, why in the name of God, would you protect them?
> 
> I love the fact that some of you are coming up with various ways to be politically correct in ways to describe this group, some as far as labeling them private school kids. Well, let me tell you something. I highly resent that. My husband and I made tremendous sacrifices to give our 3 children the best private/catholic school education we could afford and they are well mannered, productive and respectful young adults.
> 
> Let's not reinforce horrendous behavior. How fair is that to the families that work hard all year long and look forward to their yearly January vacation? We throw them under the bus in favor of the bullies? Because that's what you are doing when your solution to them is " have another drink, switch your travel week, go to another beach". Right is right and wrong is wrong. Period.
> 
> Maybe I am having a bad day but this is wrong in so many ways.



topmom - since you are so sick of the current descriptions, where is your version of the facts that is NOT politically correct?


----------



## Wally3433

I couldn't find any videos of Hell week on youtube.  Is there any photos or videos posted?

I still think there is a great reality TV show in this somewhere.  Maybe A&E could schedule a Harley Bike Week in Aruba at the same time?


----------



## BJRSanDiego

topmom101 said:


> This same topic is being discussed right now on Facebook among Surf Club Owners. Here are a few excerpts:
> 
> I would use every available social media to expose them and, further, I would publicly shame Marriott for burying its head in the sand.
> 
> .



I looked at the Surf club OWNERs site and saw some comments.  But everyone seems to be missing the ball by NOT posting anything on the official Marriott site.    The number of people listed as "like" on the Marriott site is almost 4000.  But the number of people on the separate owners site has less than 500 members.  It is possible that Marriott does not monitor the separate and private owners site.  

My advice for people who are legitimately upset is to make a post or a review on the official Marriott site.


----------



## chris5

SueDonJ said:


> _And now with my moderator hat on:_
> 
> It doesn't hurt my sensibilities if this group is called out by name, but I'm not here to force others to adopt my sensibilities.  I want folks to be able to continue posting reports about the situation (hopefully with a resolution one year that it's been stopped by Marriott.)  Whether we think it's right or not, over the years too many TUG threads about it have had to be shut down because the focus shifted from the negative behavior to the people exhibiting it, and then TUG Admin and mods were flooded with complaints by folks who took insult.
> 
> Several years ago it was decided that the only way the discussion could remain non-contentious was if the group is not called out by name.  Whether you agree with that or not, please accept it as the price of being allowed to discuss the group's activities.  I don't want to lock these threads every year but that's where we're headed.
> 
> I'm removing the group's name from all posts in this thread and will not post further admonitions about it.  If you want TUG to be a place where you can continue to learn how this situation evolves in the future, you'll respect the compromise that's been reached.



I don't want to appear to be picking at a scab, and I really would like us to be fair and consistent in how we handle issues of this type.  But I fail to see why it's not appropriate to name this group/organization that has run amok at the Marriott Aruba Resorts on the third week of January.  It their name!

I mean some of us might take offense at identifying Memorial Day weekend at Myrtle Beach in the sticky as Black Bike Week, particularly since the sticky does not identify the week that precedes it as White Biker's Week -- which in my circles was the way we referred to that week since Blacks were not welcome to attend the activities during that week and hence created their own weekend of activities, appropriately named, Black Biker's Week! 

I think the Tug moderators are tying themselves up in knots of political correctness here. It's their name. Seriously, we should have not any misgiving or hesitation to name this group or organization even if its loosely affiliated with an ethnic, religious, or racial group. Since when does someone's else sensibilities trump factually accurate reporting or identification of an organization? I doubt any of us would have any compunction in identifying misbehaving parties or clusters of people from the XXZ Chapter of the Knights of Pythias, XYZ Chapter of Alpha Kappa Psi, or XYZ Chapter of the Knights of Columbus.  As I said before, there is value in factually identifying and shaming the organization. It's their name.

There's almost an Orwellian irony to removing the group's name from this thread, especially since we defame this group by referring to its week of festivities -- at least to them -- as Hell Week. But I see that this issue opens up old wounds and it's going no where fast.  So, to satisfy my own curiosity, could someone PM me and tell me the name of this organization.


----------



## Ridewithme38

chris5 said:


> So, to satisfy my own curiosity, could someone PM me and tell me the name of this organization.



No one knows the name of the organization, i sent you a PM.


----------



## HatTrick

A discussion from 2010: http://www.aruba.com/forum/f9/tons-kids-43613/


----------



## Beefnot

This PC garbage is such B.S. Cannot even name a specific group that has an actual name? What kind of horse sh-- PC nonsense is that? That shouldn't even be called PC. That is just plain stupid.


----------



## benyu2010

I found out it is _*NOT*_ all NYS private school students after read whole three pages of posts, plus external links. This is not fair to those whom not involved. It seems possibly only behaviors of a particular group who has an annual organized getaway.

That said, if you have large group of families with many kids, without usual help of nanny at home, it would be pretty tough for everyone to manage the situation. Kids usually less behave away from home and it would be just crazy if hundreds of kids gone on vacation all together. Very unfortunate situation that not all feel get what they entitled as an owner and likely will not... It is a no-win for marriott, but a business decision to make every year...


----------



## m61376

While mentioning the group by name wouldn't violate Tug rules per se (imho), the issue is that there hasn't been one thread where it is just limited to that. For some reason, it devolves into generalized dispersions and ethnic and religious slurs or inferences, at least one of which has already been posted in this thread and removed by a moderator. I think that's why the moderators made the decision to eliminate any references.

I agree that the actions of this group are shameful, but that doesn't mean that others with the same religious persuasions act similarly. Large group mentality, as pointed out above, with loosely supervised kids is a recipe for disaster. It is not an excuse for their actions, though, and neither is Marriott's contention is that they are owners. There are rules that are posted and should be strictly enforced. Marriott shouldn't have to enforce common courtesy, but clearly they need to here. The Hyatt took similar action years ago.

Are the children being allowed to run amuck at the new Ritz??


----------



## psguru

The best thing to do going forward is to check the website of any sephardic hebrew school in Brooklyn to find out when their winter break is.  They usually do not have off for Christmas so mid to late January is when they have their break.  

I've been there many times with them.  It's a horror show and gives us other Jews a bad name. 

What i like to also do if they're playing football in the lazy river is to ask one of the kids to show me his arm, tell him he and his friends throw like 4 year old girls, then throw the ball over the fence into the street.  The look on their faces is priceless.  I usually get a least one or two free drinks from other members.


----------



## psguru

m61376 said:


> While mentioning the group by name wouldn't violate Tug rules per se (imho), the issue is that there hasn't been one thread where it is just limited to that. For some reason, it devolves into generalized dispersions and ethnic and religious slurs or inferences, at least one of which has already been posted in this thread and removed by a moderator. I think that's why the moderators made the decision to eliminate any references.
> 
> I agree that the actions of this group are shameful, but that doesn't mean that others with the same religious persuasions act similarly. Large group mentality, as pointed out above, with loosely supervised kids is a recipe for disaster. It is not an excuse for their actions, though, and neither is Marriott's contention is that they are owners. There are rules that are posted and should be strictly enforced. Marriott shouldn't have to enforce common courtesy, but clearly they need to here. The Hyatt took similar action years ago.
> 
> Are the children being allowed to run amuck at the new Ritz??





Loosely supervised kids????? How about non-supervised!!!  I can't tell you how many times i've seen a kid younger than 3 or 4 in the lazy river by himself.


----------



## Ridewithme38

psguru said:


> Loosely supervised kids????? How about non-supervised!!!  I can't tell you how many times i've seen a kid younger than 3 or 4 in the lazy river by himself.



I don't understand what's wrong with that. I was a very strong swimmer from a young age, my daughter was about average. I wouldn't have had a problem with her in a lazy river at 3 or 4.

That is another question i have.....If they are doing damage to the resort that is a major issue and something that needs to be dealt with and the disrespect to the OP is NOT to be tolerated, i would have dragged that kid by its arm back to mom and dad and made sure they learned better....But, kids being kids, playing catch, climbing on rocks, running/jumping, swimming....may annoy you, but kids deserve to enjoy their vacation also.

Signed,
Seth from NY


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Ridewithme38 said:


> I don't understand what's wrong with that. I was a very strong swimmer from a young age, my daughter was about average. I wouldn't have had a problem with her in a lazy river at 3 or 4.
> 
> That is another question i have.....If they are doing damage to the resort that is a major issue and something that needs to be dealt with and the disrespect to the OP is NOT to be tolerated, i would have dragged that kid by its arm back to mom and dad and made sure they learned better....But, kids being kids, playing catch, climbing on rocks, running/jumping, swimming....may annoy you, but kids deserve to enjoy their vacation also.
> 
> Signed,
> Seth from NY



3 or 4 in the water by themselves with nobody watching? That sounds ok to you? Strong swimmer has nothing to do with it. Anyone can hit their head or have other complications. It's even questionable whether any age should swim completely alone but at 3/4 supervision should be automatic.


----------



## Beefnot

psguru said:


> The best thing to do going forward is to check the website of *any* sephardic hebrew school in Brooklyn to find out when their winter break is.  They usually do not have off for Christmas so mid to late January is when they have their break.
> 
> I've been there many times with them.  It's a horror show and gives us other Jews a bad name.



This is where we go off the rails.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Beefnot said:


> This PC garbage is such B.S. Cannot even name a specific group that has an actual name? What kind of horse sh-- PC nonsense is that? That shouldn't even be called PC. That is just plain stupid.



I have to agree. Somehow I think if it was a different ethnic or religious group it would be ok to name it. If this were a large Brazilian spring break group would it cause the same name deletions? I seriously doubt it. Society is oversensitive to this particular group due to the history of mankind. It is understandable because it is reality but I don't believe it is right. Such is life.


----------



## Ridewithme38

Saintsfanfl said:


> 3 or 4 in the water by themselves with nobody watching? That sounds ok to you? Strong swimmer has nothing to do with it. Anyone can hit their head or have other complications. It's even questionable whether any age should swim completely alone but at 3/4 supervision should be automatic.



Are you REALLY talking about swimming alone? Because i thought this was a time when the Surf Club was overbooked and there are people everywhere.  Or do you mean alone as in, YOU didn't know who was supervising the child?

Remember the days when you and I were kids Saints?  When i was 3-4 i lived in Grosse Point, I was always wandering the neighborhood, i don't remember it, but my parents freely admit they didn't know which neighbors backyard i was in at anytime. By Kindergarten we had moved to Long Island, my memory is a bit better, i remember waking up in the morning, going out and meeting up with other kids and us all coming back inside when the street lights came on....entire days unsupervised! Somehow i survived!

And before you guys say "That's was the 50's or 40's and things have changed", i'm not that old, Reagan was president through most of elementary school for me


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Ridewithme38 said:


> Are you REALLY talking about swimming alone? Because i thought this was a time when the Surf Club was overbooked and there are people everywhere.  Or do you mean alone as in, YOU didn't know who was supervising the child?
> 
> Remember the days when you and I were kids Saints?  When i was 3-4 i lived in Grosse Point, I was always wandering the neighborhood, i don't remember it, but my parents freely admit they didn't know which neighbors backyard i was in at anytime. By Kindergarten we had moved to Long Island, my memory is a bit better, i remember waking up in the morning, going out and meeting up with other kids and us all coming back inside when the street lights came on....entire days unsupervised! Somehow i survived!
> 
> And before you guys say "That's was the 50's or 40's and things have changed", i'm not that old, Reagan was president through most of elementary school for me



I see your point on the swimming. On wondering the neighborhood at 3 or 4 that seems a little young but I grew up in a neighborhood where the houses were not close together and ours was surrounded by woods. I was not out by myself at 3-4 but I was probably around 6-7. Southern Louisiana was and is a bit different than Gross Pointe. We are probably about the same age. I might even be older. I was in 3rd grade when Reagan was elected.


----------



## csxjohn

Ridewithme38 said:


> Are you REALLY talking about swimming alone? ...there are people everywhere.  Or do you mean alone as in, YOU didn't know who was supervising the child?



We always used the buddy system when we swam.  No one swam alone, that means we did not swim unless we were very close to our "buddy."  There could be 100 people in the pool but we were each responsible for knowing our buddy was near by.

I'm sure you've read some of the other threads about drownings and near drownings in resort pools.  Many people around but no one watching the kid in trouble.

My grandson turns 4 next month and I can assure you he will not be near the water without adult supervision very near by.  Too much can happen very quickly.


----------



## HatTrick

Beefnot said:


> That shouldn't even be called PC. That is just plain stupid.



PS then?


----------



## m61376

Saintsfanfl said:


> 3 or 4 in the water by themselves with nobody watching? That sounds ok to you? Strong swimmer has nothing to do with it. Anyone can hit their head or have other complications. It's even questionable whether any age should swim completely alone but at 3/4 supervision should be automatic.



I couldn't agree more. Even if no one was horsing around, it is a pool filled with people on floats, etc., and very easy for a swimmer to go underneath and have problem when coming up for air. Sometimes even adults get momentarily confused under such circumstances, and I don' care how good a swimmer a toddler is, he/she is still a toddler. It is not up to other guests to supervise someone else's children.


----------



## sb2313

m61376 said:


> I couldn't agree more. Even if no one was horsing around, it is a pool filled with people on floats, etc., and very easy for a swimmer to go underneath and have problem when coming up for air. Sometimes even adults get momentarily confused under such circumstances, and I don' care how good a swimmer a toddler is, he/she is still a toddler. It is not up to other guests to supervise someone else's children.



I have a 3.5 yo& a 2 yo and one of the best parts of any vacation is when they get to swim with others kids; sometimes older kids even take them for a while. But the whole time my wife and/or myself do watch them. Maybe it's my age?(I was born the year Reagan was elected since he's our point of reference today)but it's up to us as parents to watch out own kids, especially around water! While I understand rides example of a neighborhood situation, this is different and we can't rely on others to watch our kids around pools!


----------



## m61376

Saintsfanfl said:


> I have to agree. Somehow I think if it was a different ethnic or religious group it would be ok to name it. If this were a large Brazilian spring break group would it cause the same name deletions? I seriously doubt it. Society is oversensitive to this particular group due to the history of mankind. It is understandable because it is reality but I don't believe it is right. Such is life.



Sadly, it is not just oversensitivity. It is that too many people cannot resist making a more generalized ethnic slur, whether about practices, garb or something else. As I've posted, there hasn't been one thread about this where the conversation hasn't devolved, including this one. I applaud Sue and Denise for promptly removing such dispersions. I would have no problem with identifying the specific group IF others wouldn't add offensive commentary. 

Personally, I am embarrassed that religious connections can be made, and that anyone would even think that this type of behavior is representative of the group at large is hurtful, but there are many, including several Tug members, who can't resist making such quips. 

Like most here, I am appalled that anyone could be so disrespectful to both the staff and other guests, and agree that it deserves as much negative publicity as needed to get Marriott to take appropriate action. As an owner, I should be able to make a reservation for any week I'd like to go, without fear of my vacation time and money being wasted because of any other inconsiderate guest.

I do think now is a time when the powers that be at Marriott are most apt to listen, since they want the new Ritz next door to be successful. Has anyone down there now checked out the Ritz- and is any of the behavior that is plaguing the other Marriott properties being seen there. And, if not, what are they doing to effectively police the area?


----------



## Saintsfanfl

m61376 said:


> Sadly, it is not just oversensitivity. It is that too many people cannot resist making a more generalized ethnic slur, whether about practices, garb or something else. As I've posted, there hasn't been one thread about this where the conversation hasn't devolved, including this one. I applaud Sue and Denise for promptly removing such dispersions. I would have no problem with identifying the specific group IF others wouldn't add offensive commentary.
> 
> Personally, I am embarrassed that religious connections can be made, and that anyone would even think that this type of behavior is representative of the group at large is hurtful, but there are many, including several Tug members, who can't resist making such quips.
> 
> Like most here, I am appalled that anyone could be so disrespectful to both the staff and other guests, and agree that it deserves as much negative publicity as needed to get Marriott to take appropriate action. As an owner, I should be able to make a reservation for any week I'd like to go, without fear of my vacation time and money being wasted because of any other inconsiderate guest.
> 
> I do think now is a time when the powers that be at Marriott are most apt to listen, since they want the new Ritz next door to be successful. Has anyone down there now checked out the Ritz- and is any of the behavior that is plaguing the other Marriott properties being seen there. And, if not, what are they doing to effectively police the area?



I can't agree with that. I have not seen any slurs in this thread although maybe some were deleted. I know I used the technically correct, politically correct, and self used ethnic and religious name and it was deleted. It is a religious group so it is either named correctly or it goes unnamed. Apparently it is the latter and I stand by over sensitivity although I concede that it is realistically justified due to history. There are a handful of other groups that would end with the same censorship out of fear of backlash. But the hundreds of other groups that neither have known history nor members to take offense would be left named.

That said I still think any large group that all know each other will end with the same bad behavior reports. When we vacation at a resort we are used to other families. We are not used to a convention setting where our vacation style is the minority. Pick any of a thousand groups taking over a resort and you are going to have the same issues.


----------



## psguru

It's not a religious thing.  It just happens to be a certain group of people who share the same religious background.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

psguru said:


> It's not a religious thing.  It just happens to be a certain group of people who share the same religious background.



Exactly. We are afraid to name the group because we don't want people to think we are attacking ethnicity or religion. But a group of that size could be any group. I don't think there is a single thing any resort can do about it. The nature of a group pulls non group members outside of their comfort zone while on vacation. The only recourse is to avoid the week.


----------



## Ridewithme38

psguru said:


> It's not a religious thing.  It just happens to be a certain group of people who share the same religious background.



No, it's happens to be a certain group of people who share the same Temple/synagogue.  Their religion is secondary, the temple/synagogue is the one that sets up these trips, not the religion.  That is the issue we run into, there are hundreds of thousands of people that share that religion and they have nothing to do with this trip.  

If you are to name them, name the Temple/Synagogue NOT the religion. The religion has nothing to do with this trip.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Ridewithme38 said:


> No, it's happens to be a certain group of people who share the same Temple/synagogue.  Their religion is secondary, the temple/synagogue is the one that sets up these trips, not the religion.  That is the issue we run into, there are hundreds of thousands of people that share that religion and they have nothing to do with this trip.
> 
> If you are to name them, name the Temple/Synagogue NOT the religion. The religion has nothing to do with this trip.



This is true.


----------



## m61376

Saintsfanfl said:


> I can't agree with that. I have not seen any slurs in this thread although maybe some were deleted.



Exactly- they were deleted. I know there was at least one snide comment that I saw before it was deleted.

Again, I appreciate the effort the moderators are putting in here. I wish neither the behavior or the resulting commentary didn't necessitate it.

On another, related note- the entire month of January is available for booking with the exception of two Sat., at least for OS rooms at the SC. I have been told by guests in the past that the OC was far worse, since there were many more owners there.

Sadly, I had heard that it was much better the last few years. Seems that's not the case this year though. I wonder if it's because their more experienced staff has been funneled over to the Ritz since late Fall.

Again, I am really curious if there has been any overflow to the Ritz, and, if not, what they are doing to prevent it. I'd like to see the same security at the other Marriott properties.


----------



## SueDonJ

Saintsfanfl said:


> Exactly. We are afraid to name the group because we don't want people to think we are attacking ethnicity or religion. But a group of that size could be any group. I don't think there is a single thing any resort can do about it. The nature of a group pulls non group members outside of their comfort zone while on vacation. The only recourse is to avoid the week.



I don't think that the suggestion to not name the group came out of any fear, but rather out of brainstorming a way to keep the focus of any TUG threads on *what the group does* instead of *who the group is*.  That's what's important here!  That's what folks want to know, so that they can form their own opinion about whether or not they want to immerse themselves in the activity.

Various reports about this situation in Aruba, from all over the web, date all the way back to 2002.  [ETA - And now, 1998 according to psguru's post below.]  That's a long time for such negativity to be associated with certain Marriott resorts.  It's mind-boggling that it continues, especially in this day and age with internet communication.  But one of the reasons may be that when the focus turns to the group instead of the actions, communication is shut off for fear of offending sensibilities.  It's happened all over the web - just yesterday, the unofficial Aruba Surf Club owners page on Facebook that was mentioned here, tried to put a stop to that conversation.  All of the related posts disappeared.  Someone else mentioned posting to the official Marriott Facebook pages - forget it, the posts won't clear moderation.

While I've always felt that it should be possible to name the group and still engage in civil conversation here, it simply doesn't happen.  All I want is for TUG to be a place where folks can learn about what happens in Aruba sometime in January.  I don't want every thread to have to be eventually locked, or the topic be eventually banned, because we can't agree on how best to do that.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Now if we can only get rid of the Boston and New England fans.....

:hysterical:


----------



## psguru

I was at the Ocean Club the week it opened in January of 1998.  The group happened to come down a day or so after we got there.  We got a hut the first few days then suddenly we couldn't get one anymore.  It used to be first come, first served.  My nephew was a year old so everyone was up early.  At 6am, my brother went down to the beach and not one hut was available.  Towels on all of them.   Then we see an african-american guy sleeping in one of the chairs.  We wake him up to see if he saw all the people come down.  He tells us that he's part of the group and they brought him down specifically to get the huts and he sleeps on the beach.  

That put an end to free huts.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

psguru said:


> I was at the Ocean Club the week it opened in January of 1998.  The group happened to come down a day or so after we got there.  We got a hut the first few days then suddenly we couldn't get one anymore.  It used to be first come, first served.  My nephew was a year old so everyone was up early.  At 6am, my brother went down to the beach and not one hut was available.  Towels on all of them.   Then we see an african-american guy sleeping in one of the chairs.  We wake him up to see if he saw all the people come down.  He tells us that he's part of the group and they brought him down specifically to get the huts and he sleeps on the beach.
> 
> That put an end to free huts.



"african-american guy"? Does the race make any difference whatsoever? I guess now I understand why the threads always end in disarray.


----------



## indyhorizons

psguru said:


> I was at the Ocean Club the week it opened in January of 1998.  The group happened to come down a day or so after we got there.  We got a hut the first few days then suddenly we couldn't get one anymore.  It used to be first come, first served.  My nephew was a year old so everyone was up early.  At 6am, my brother went down to the beach and not one hut was available.  Towels on all of them.   Then we see an african-american guy sleeping in one of the chairs.  We wake him up to see if he saw all the people come down.  He tells us that he's part of the group and they brought him down specifically to get the huts and he sleeps on the beach.
> 
> That put an end to free huts.



What? Is this person a troll? Are we now saying the African American was part of the Jewish group?  Or is this a new and different group?  Not sure I believe this thread.  5 posts and this is what they post?


----------



## SueDonJ

Saintsfanfl said:


> … I don't think there is a single thing any resort can do about it. ...



I have never understood this, or Marriott's defense that as owners the group has every right to be there doing what they're doing.  It's preposterous.

Look through the governing docs for your resorts.  There are myriad sections detailing what actions Marriott can take if the various common courtesy rules are not followed.  There IS language which supports Marriott not allowing owners the use of their ownership if any owners/guests are negatively affected by others.  In drastic cases there are allowances for suspending ownership.

I also don't understand minimizing this group's actions to only common courtesy infractions, "unruly children" or "children swimming without supervision."  This group is required to put up a surety bond to cover damages, extra security and cleaning personnel, and compensation that Marriott pays out to owners/guests who can legitimately document that their vacations have been ruined.  Do we know of any other situation where a surety bond is required?!  No!  This isn't a matter of a large group being insular and other owners/guests being made to feel they're outsiders.  It's much more than that, and the governing docs do give Marriott the power to stop it.  Why they don't is a mystery, although probably their financial gain is a factor.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

I guess I didn't realize it was that bad. I did not realize that they have to be bonded for the week. At least Marriott took that step although if a group has to be bonded that should indicate that maybe they shouldn't be allowed at all. Can the board do anything about it?


----------



## indyhorizons

SueDonJ said:


> I have never understood this, or Marriott's defense that as owners the group has every right to be there doing what they're doing.  It's preposterous.
> 
> Look through the governing docs for your resorts.  There are myriad sections detailing what actions Marriott can take if the various common courtesy rules are not followed.  There IS language which supports Marriott not allowing owners the use of their ownership if any owners/guests are negatively affected by others.  In drastic cases there are allowances for suspending ownership.
> 
> I also don't understand minimizing this group's actions to only common courtesy infractions, "unruly children" or "children swimming without supervision."  This group is required to put up a surety bond to cover damages, extra security and cleaning personnel, and compensation that Marriott pays out to owners/guests who can legitimately document that their vacations have been ruined.  Do we know of any other situation where a surety bond is required?!  No!  This isn't a matter of a large group being insular and other owners/guests being made to feel they're outsiders.  It's much more than that, and the governing docs do give Marriott the power to stop it.  Why they don't is a mystery, although probably their financial gain is a factor.



All great and valid points Sue. In fact I believe the key points here are as owners  they have the right to use their week.  This is where their rights end.  And their right to use their week (s) doesn't or shouldn't trump any other owners' rights.  I think that is the most basic of points with all of this and Marriotts stand is ridiculous because they are placing one groups needs and desires over all others who happen to be present at the same time.  And no amount of compensation unless it is equal to my airfare and accommodations (and what about lost vacation time/days), would be adequate (imho).


----------



## psguru

Not sure how I could have made that story up but i mentioned the man's race to show that he was clearly not part of the group, just a guy from the neighborhood they hired to get the huts. 

Trust me, i have a laundry list of things i could say about this group.


----------



## Beaglemom3

Saintsfanfl said:


> I guess I didn't realize it was that bad. I did not realize that they have to be bonded for the week. At least Marriott took that step although if a group has to be bonded that should indicate that maybe they shouldn't be allowed at all. Can the board do anything about it?



  Good point.............. I'd love to see the specific language of the damage bond (or just plain damage deposit with terms ?) and if there are annual updates, but of course, these things are confidential, usually.

  I was just thnking about the required bond and how it protects Marriott, _but doesn't cover ruined vacations for everyone else _(unless there is a unique subclause in the bond terms - sure, yeh.....).


----------



## WFP

We know we are new to TUG from a post perspective but we have been here reading since we were investigating the Enrollment into DC.  We gained valuable insight for that decision and did enroll days before the June 2010 Date.

We have never stayed in Aruba ourselves but find this information to be invaluable.  While we disagree with the mods decision to exclude the group's name, we understand the intent is to prevent derogatory or other inflamed discussion.  We would have preferered that those inflamatory items be editid/deleted so that we can better understand the issue.  

We hope that a way can be found to continue to share this information with all owner's.

/WFP


----------



## SueDonJ

Before we go off on another wild tangent here  - when this conversation starts on other websites TUG is usually mentioned as an info source and links to TUG threads may be included.  It's not unusual, not automatically "trollish," for new posters to make their way to these threads.


----------



## indyhorizons

My apologies to the new poster. And welcome to Tug.


----------



## TUGBrian

Since this discussion is also going on in the mods forum to decide on things...ill ask you guys:

How do you know its one particular church/group/whatever that is causing all this trouble?


----------



## Ridewithme38

edited.......


----------



## Saintsfanfl

TUGBrian said:


> Since this discussion is also going on in the mods forum to decide on things...ill ask you guys:
> 
> How do you know its one particular church/group/whatever that is causing all this trouble?



I am speculating here but I am guessing some of the answers would require a delete. Wouldn't it be obvious though? It is a "together" group and they have planned activities like taking over the gym all during the same hour.


----------



## Ridewithme38

TUGBrian said:


> Since this discussion is also going on in the mods forum to decide on things...ill ask you guys:
> 
> How do you know its one particular church/group/whatever that is causing all this trouble?



Speculation based mainly on this website:
http://sephardicaruba.com/

It mentions a specific Rabbi to contact to go.


----------



## TUGBrian

Its not obvious to me, up until a few posts ago I thought this was still the NYC regents kids  :lol:


----------



## TUGBrian

ok, i see the page...but nothing about them coming on this specific week?

I guess my point was are you guys sure this is one particular group representing said group?  if so...I dont see any reason not to mention it if they are making it public anyway.

However, it is a stretch (and a violation of posting guidelines) to criticize an entire religion based on a small section of them being jackasses at a resort 1 week a year.

please keep that in mind.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

TUGBrian said:


> Its not obvious to me, up until a few posts ago I thought this was still the NYC regents kids  :lol:



I think that was born out of the "group that shall not be named" philosophy. But that is what I thought too since this is new to me. Looking through all the posts on the other sites as well as this group scheduling the week make it obvious. Also the recent mention that they have to post a bond tie up any uncertainty.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

TUGBrian said:


> ok, i see the page...but nothing about them coming on this specific week?
> 
> I guess my point was are you guys sure this is one particular group representing said group?  if so...I dont see any reason not to mention it if they are making it public anyway.
> 
> However, it is a stretch (and a violation of posting guidelines) to criticize an entire religion based on a small section of them being jackasses at a resort 1 week a year.
> 
> please keep that in mind.



No the specific week is most definitely there. Look at the brochure. 

http://sephardicaruba.com/downloads/sephardic_aruba_brochure.pdf

The brochure indicates the enormity of the group especially with scheduled fee camps for kids that are organized at the "Marriott Hotel Beach Area". I don't care who the group would be or how well behaved I would avoid something like this like the plague. Even if this was the most well behaved group on the planet a mass that size moving together would get in the way.


----------



## TUGBrian

well there ya go.

they dont seem to have a problem with it being public...not sure why we would.

Given the fact that this has the potential to get ugly, and I have no desire to overwhelm Sue with extra moderating duties...ill just put this single warning here for all of you.

If you go off tangent in this thread and begin to be a jackass yourself, we will just delete your post and ban you.

no discussion, no argument, no excuses.  you are all adults...I expect you to act as such.


----------



## SueDonJ

Saintsfanfl said:


> I guess I didn't realize it was that bad. I did not realize that they have to be bonded for the week. At least Marriott took that step although if a group has to be bonded that should indicate that maybe they shouldn't be allowed at all. Can the board do anything about it?



I believe the resort board members answer any questions with the same canned response, that as owners the group has a right to be there.

I'd love to see the VAC board members book a stay to coincide with this, wonder if as eyewitnesses they'd be more willing to at least consider its impact on other owners/guests onsite, nevermind the overall impact of the resorts gaining more and more a negative reputation.


----------



## SueDonJ

TUGBrian said:


> well there ya go.
> 
> they dont seem to have a problem with it being public...not sure why we would.
> 
> Given the fact that this has the potential to get ugly, and I have no desire to overwhelm Sue with extra moderating duties...ill just put this single warning here for all of you.
> 
> If you go off tangent in this thread and begin to be a jackass yourself, we will just delete your post and ban you.
> 
> no discussion, no argument, no excuses.  you are all adults...I expect you to act as such.



Another post that needs a "Like" button.    Thanks, Brian.


----------



## Ridewithme38

Ok, it looks like Be'Er Miriam is a school and The Matan Baseter society is a social aid society.  This event is sponsored by those two organizations, from what i can tell.

Its basically a school sponsored camp.  We had those for Lacrosse and Baseball when i was in High school.  I don't know that it matters what religion the students are from that school.


----------



## Fern Modena

oh blah di oh blah dah...life goes on...


----------



## TUGBrian

csxjohn said:


> Read the stickys at the top of the Marriott forum and you'll see this one.
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204519
> 
> I'd like to see this expanded to other areas and resorts.



I think that would be a great idea!


----------



## SueDonJ

Saintsfanfl said:


> Now if we can only get rid of the Boston and New England fans.....
> 
> :hysterical:



You know Pinky and The Brain?  We're The Brain.


----------



## LDT

SueDonJ said:


> I have never understood this, or Marriott's defense that as owners the group has every right to be there doing what they're doing.  It's preposterous.
> 
> Look through the governing docs for your resorts.  There are myriad sections detailing what actions Marriott can take if the various common courtesy rules are not followed.  There IS language which supports Marriott not allowing owners the use of their ownership if any owners/guests are negatively affected by others.  In drastic cases there are allowances for suspending ownership.
> 
> I also don't understand minimizing this group's actions to only common courtesy infractions, "unruly children" or "children swimming without supervision."  This group is required to put up a surety bond to cover damages, extra security and cleaning personnel, and compensation that Marriott pays out to owners/guests who can legitimately document that their vacations have been ruined.  Do we know of any other situation where a surety bond is required?!  No!  This isn't a matter of a large group being insular and other owners/guests being made to feel they're outsiders.  It's much more than that, and the governing docs do give Marriott the power to stop it.  Why they don't is a mystery, although probably their financial gain is a factor.



I never thought to look through my documentation.  I fought with Marriott for years over this group.  
(And before anyone says to just go another week let me explain.  After visiting Aruba for many years we finally decided to purchase at the Surf Club.  We always went during our anniversary but stayed in hotels, and not the Marriott hotel.  Imagine how we felt when our first visit, and anniversary celebration, to the SC was ruined by these people.)

Would there be others willing to stand up to Marriott to see if we can get rid of this group?  I tried like hell to do it myself and got nowhere.


----------



## Saintsfanfl




----------



## LUVourMarriotts

There have been several comments asking why people do not post complaints to the Marriott official Surf Club FB page.  The answer is, people have done this.  But, Marriott doesn't allow those threads to remain on their FB page, they delete them.

I am on the open member group for Surf Club on FB, where this is also being discussed (including me), but the "moderators" over there asked that nobody continue commenting on the subject.  That doesn't seem to be working, but whatever.

I have also posted to another Marriott official resort FB page in the past about a complaint and it was deleted and I was contacted directly.  So I know they won't keep it there for others to see.  They will squash it and continue adding to their bottom line.

NOTE:  I am not there now.  I am just a concerned owner, and I have a conscience, so I feel bad for the people who are experiencing this.


----------



## LUVourMarriotts

LDT said:


> Would there be others willing to stand up to Marriott to see if we can get rid of this group?  I tried like hell to do it myself and got nowhere.



Yes!  Count me in.


----------



## psguru

Thanks for the welcome.  Just to clarify, this isn't a religious issue.  The issue is the sense of entitlement, rudeness, and sheer disregard they show for anyone that is not part of their group.  I've been to the SC when there was a group that won their trips through sales incentives and it wasn't an issue.

Honestly, the best thing to do if you're planning on a January vacation is to call their schools or look on the internet to see when they come down.  You also have to remember that some come early because they can't travel on Saturday or risk traveling on Friday.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

The whole concept of running multiple youth summer camps on hotel, resort, or public beaches for additional fees should raise questions just by itself.


----------



## Fairwinds

Saintsfanfl said:


> Now if we can only get rid of the Boston and New England fans.....
> 
> :hysterical:



You see! Some people just can't leave my religion alone.:hysterical:


----------



## ilene13

*It could happen any time*

The majority of the group are owners at the OC and the SC.  Traditionally the management does not go after poorly behaved owners.  When we were in Aruba 3 weeks ago an owner had multiple guests that they brought to the OC beach.  They set up 24 chairs in front of a palapa and used the watersports lean to as their shade.  They were loud, rude, obnoxious, drunk, and playing loud music.  There were multiple complaints to the management, they were spoken to--but they did not improve their behavior.  Management said 2 of them are owners and we cannot force them to behave well.  We have owned at the OC since 2000, it was our 14th consecutive week 51 and 52 at the resort.  It was the first time that we ever had a situation like this, and there was no resolution.  I can verify that this group of 24 was not remotely related to the poorly behaved guests who are currently there!  So, my rambling is just to say it can happen at any time--especially if the resorts do not make rules that are upheld.


----------



## Beaglemom3

Fairwinds said:


> You see! Some people just can't leave my religion alone.:hysterical:



:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

Amen.


----------



## topmom101

I seem to recall reading about an incident at the Playa Linda (Aruba) where I am an owner, of a man who got belligerant and verbally abusive with one of the beach employees. When the incident was brought up to management's attention, the owner was reprimanded and warned that his ownership would be revoked following a repeat performance.  

Clearly, that kind of behavior is a violation of the code of conduct we must all adhere to.  It's unbelievable to me that Marriott allows this to go on year after year.

Has anyone thought of contacting the organizers of this yearly event and listing the endless list of offenses being perpetrated by this group? Maybe they have a conscience.


----------



## indyhorizons

On that same note, I have a family member who works for MAR (not VAC).  At the hotel level- groups (religious, sexual preference/orientation- you name it) book out the whole hotel for their function all the time.  MAR can accommodate this by not making the hotel available and selling the rooms to the group.  No problem.  The problem here is they try to apply the same principles to this group at VAC and it is not possible, because even though they own a large number of weeks, they don't own all the weeks so the week is available for: other owners to book; Marriott.com to rent; DC owners to book. And while this group still has their activities en masse (such as cooking exclusive to them- etc.) it really isn't the same as when this occurs as a group at a hotel.  The hotel "belongs" to the group during the designated period. That is not the case here.

Also, Marriott seems to be willing to take groups no other property wants. In my family member's previous city, the sexual orientation group moved from the Hyatt to the Marriott because people were gawking and whispering about them.  If you heard some of the stories, you might gawk or whisper too.


----------



## rthib

*Video!*

As others stated.
Someone need to take some video of the behavior and post it.

Comments can turn in to a he said/she said.
Video is both powerful and allows anyone to make a judgement.

It is ridiculous that there should be any time at any resort you should avoid because of behavior.


----------



## indyhorizons

topmom101 said:


> I seem to recall reading about an incident at the Playa Linda (Aruba) where I am an owner, of a man who got belligerant and verbally abusive with one of the beach employees. When the incident was brought up to management's attention, the owner was reprimanded and warned that his ownership would be revoked following a repeat performance.
> 
> Clearly, that kind of behavior is a violation of the code of conduct we must all adhere to.  It's unbelievable to me that Marriott allows this to go on year after year.
> 
> *Has anyone thought of contacting the organizers of this yearly event and listing the endless list of offenses being perpetrated by this group? Maybe they have a conscience*.



I'd love to hear that conversation. :hysterical:


----------



## TUGBrian

totally agree on the video part...surely someone has a go-pro they can wear or use?


----------



## jimf41

TUGBrian said:


> Since this discussion is also going on in the mods forum to decide on things...ill ask you guys:
> 
> How do you know its one particular church/group/whatever that is causing all this trouble?



Having experienced it in 2002 I was told by the bartender at the Marriott hotel bar about them. He never mentioned their religion and I saw nothing to lead me to believe that they were associated with any particular religious belief. All I knew was they were a group from the metro area in NY City that came down every year and had been refused reservations at the other hotels on the hotel strip due to their behavior.

We stayed at the hotel not the TS's and it was pretty bad. We were on a 7 day points package but left after 3 nights at considerable cost due to the fact that the fire alarms went off twice a night like clockwork. I also got tired of having the exiting guests push all the floor buttons on the elevator before leaving. Kids stuff really but very annoying kid stuff when it's repeated continuously.

The grounds and inside of the hotel were really nice but I'll never return to Aruba again. Not in January, not in any other month and that's a shame but once you get a bad taste in your mouth about a resort you don't want the possibility of a repeat.

As far as a group effort to get this nonsense stopped count me in too. Maybe we tuggers could draw up a letter that is to the point about the disturbance and the timeframe without getting sidetracked into other issues that have no bearing on the problem.

A lot of the posts on this thread seem to be from people who have heard about this but have not actually lived through it. IMO that seems to escalate the animosity and does nothing to solve the problem.

As far as this thread getting repeated every year I'm very glad it does. It's too late for me but if it saves a few folks from a miserable experience it's well worth it.


----------



## jlp879

It's possible to create an unofficial Marriott Facebook page entitled “Dissatisfied with Marriott Aruba Surf Club” or something like that.   A few photos of property damage and video shots will surely get their attention.  

That is the only way not to get thrown off the official Marriott social media channels.


----------



## topmom101

Good idea.


----------



## Ridewithme38

It would be interesting to see Videos and/or photos that show what is being said here.

BTW: I am willing to sacrifice my sanity and myself, if someone is willing to pay for the flight and room, to stay at the SC or OC during 'hell week' so that I can document the activities that are going on!


----------



## Wally3433

These posts get so long every year, so it's hard to filter.  Is there any photo or video evidence that any of this actually happens.

If so, please repost.


----------



## chris5

SueDonJ said:


> *I have never understood this, or Marriott's defense that as owners the group has every right to be there doing what they're doing.  It's preposterous.*
> 
> Look through the governing docs for your resorts.  There are myriad sections detailing what actions Marriott can take if the various common courtesy rules are not followed.  There IS language which supports Marriott not allowing owners the use of their ownership if any owners/guests are negatively affected by others.  In drastic cases there are allowances for suspending ownership.
> 
> I also don't understand minimizing this group's actions to only common courtesy infractions, "unruly children" or "children swimming without supervision."  This group is required to put up a surety bond to cover damages, extra security and cleaning personnel, and compensation that Marriott pays out to owners/guests who can legitimately document that their vacations have been ruined.  Do we know of any other situation where a surety bond is required?!  No!  This isn't a matter of a large group being insular and other owners/guests being made to feel they're outsiders.  It's much more than that, and the governing docs do give Marriott the power to stop it.  *Why they don't is a mystery, although probably their financial gain is a factor*.



Let me come to Marriott's defense here though I'm probably in the minority of views here.  I think Marriott should respect the ownership rights of all owners. Marriott can't simply go around and start kicking out owners who are not responsibly parenting their children, which appears to be the case during the so-called Hell Week.  Unfortunately, as owners in a fractional share piece of real estate, all of us are stuck with each other -- and we don't have a choice in our timeshare ownership neighbors.  Sometimes we get lucky and meet people we really like who are courteous and respectful -- from my personal observations, I've many encountered many more decent people than "jerks" in the resorts I've stayed over the years.  I would not want Marriott to start acting as the manners and parenting police; that's not their job. 

Moreover, for this particular situation, Marriott probably does not want to get the push-back it might receive from taking strong aggressive action against an organization that might claim that its being unfairly targeted for rude and offensive behavior. Just think about it for a moment.  Here, in TUG, it took the intervention of the Tug Administrator to identify the group by its own name because of the apparent sensitivity others might have over naming that group/organization, and yet we implore Marriott to be aggressive against this group and incur potential backlash and push-back from those who might exhibit equal sensitivity towards this organization!

Unless this group is causing property damage to the resort or engaging in illegal conduct, which might be grounds for Marriott to terminate ownership, I'm afraid other owners of Hell Week are stuck with this group. (And we don't know if this "group" owns timeshare interests in group name or individual members of the group own the timeshare interest; in each case, there might be differing legal implications). However, the fact that Marriott is now requiring a Surety Bond with this group is a very good sign that Marriott is laying the foundation for taking appropriate action if the group starts vandalizing or damaging resort property.

For me, I still believe the leadership of the organization needs to held accountable.  I just can't fathom the idea that it condones this behavior. I'd shame it relentlessly over this. And ensure Marriott knows about it too because this is actually damaging to the Marriott brand and timeshares in general!  I'd call up the major newspapers in major media markets about this situation and suggest that they send one of their reporters to Aruba in January to investigate Hell Week -- I'm sure someone sees value in such a story.

Or better yet, next time, next year, get the cameras out and show the rude behavior -- this could go viral on YouTube!  I bet you'll get someone's attention over this.


----------



## jimf41

chris5 said:


> Unless this group is causing property damage to the resort or engaging in illegal conduct, which might be grounds for Marriott to terminate ownership, I'm afraid other owners of Hell Week are stuck with this group.



The general penalty in most states for falsely pulling a fire alarm is a 1st degree misdemeanor. However the maximum penalty could be as high as Manslaughter if someone is killed during or responding to the alarm. These are both crimes not mere offenses.


----------



## MOXJO7282

chris5 said:


> Or better yet, next time, next year, get the cameras out and show the rude behavior -- this could go viral on YouTube!  I bet you'll get someone's attention over this.



This is the best idea yet. This would really embarrass the leaders of this group if it could be identified and i bet the rude behavior will stop.


----------



## jlp879

chris5 said:


> Moreover, for this particular situation, Marriott probably does not want to get the push-back it might receive from taking strong aggressive action against an organization that might claim that its being unfairly targeted for rude and offensive behavior. ...



I can see that Marriott might not want that, but it appears that Marriott appears to be taking NO action whatsoever.  It's time for them to start.  Just think of how many long anticipated winter vacations were ruined by guests not knowing what they were in for.  

At least Marriott could post a notice on their sites just like they do when a pool or golf course on property is closed.   "A large convention group has booked 1000 rooms at this property January 18-25".  Something like that might make you think about choosing that time.


----------



## m61376

While it is true that Marriott cannot force parents to behave like parents or kids to behave appropriately, and it is true that those who own units at the OC and the SC have the right to use their units, since Marriott is well aware of the issues they can, as other resorts have before them, refuse to rent the convention space that the group requires for their activities.

Marriott is under no obligation to rent ballroom space and/or close down restaurants to other guests for the week. They certainly can - and should- enforce the legal limits at the casino. If they didn't make the other parts attractive, the owners in question would be forced to find another unsuspecting venue (I understand they have moved from elsewhere several times in the past when the unwelcome mat was rolled out, so to speak).

The interesting thing is that, at least at the SC and at least for OS rooms, they clearly have not commandeered the space for next year, since all reservation days are open except for Sat.. Does that mean that most are owners at the OC or OV/GV owners, or perhaps they are waiting for Marriott to commit to renting them the needed ancillary space before making their reservations. 

If the Ritz has remained unaffected this year, what remedies have they taken to prevent being overrun?


----------



## Sunbum

*Flight Home*

Here is a post from a gentleman who was on a returning flight from Aruba to N.Y. last year after hell week.

Our Monday flight home, 

We got there with plenty of time to spare, We were even surprised how sparse all the lines were, then we found out why. Our flight was sold out with the group. They came very late and completely unprepared with travel documents. Never checked in and had seating all over the plane. The held our flight for 40 minutes. Once on the plane they refused to sit down for take off until the flight attendants moved people all over the plane so they could sit in the groups they wanted. Finally we took off and they gave us free TV for the hassle!!!!! Really? Free anything for the people that caused the problem is a joke. All throughout the flight they refused to sit, Kids running up and down the plane, never less then 20 people standing at one time. Now the staff is angry at everyone including the people not in their group and finally i had it. I stood up and in a loud voice to the head of the flight crew, you are putting us all in jeopardy and this is a safety issue, if we hit unexpected turbulence we are all at risk and if one of these hum a projectiles lands on me, it's going to be your job and this airline is getting sued. Finally they get on the intercom and threaten everyone with a federal crime for not sitting when the captain puts on the seat belt sign, that worked for 15 minute, they were all up again, even making sandwiches in the aisle. Now the captain comes on and threatens to land the plane in Miami and have security arrest anyone not complying with federal laws. 

So you see, Say what you will but don't ever fly from Newark, JFK or LaGuardia with these people, I tried to keep my sense of humor but i lost is last night.


----------



## Ridewithme38

There's a federal law that you can't move around on a plane when it has hit 'cruising altitude'?  I didn't know that, i'd always wondered why people acted like they were in church on planes.  I've always acted the same way i do on the train or the subway.


----------



## topmom101

Here's something I found on one of the many Aruba BB's.

We were on the plane with a group of hell week families returning home and because of them our plane almost had to land in Cuba.

They were seated right in back of economy plus, and one poor soul who was sitting in front of one of the men put his seat back. This resulted in screaming immediately by the man in the rear seat, another man joining in and dumping a drink on the guy who had put his seat back.

This resulted in shouting on both parts, with the group all ganging up together. The flight attendants flew back there, had the guy in the front seat move up to the front of the plane, and the group refused to calm down for about 10 minutes. only under threats from the captain that he was landing the plane in Cuba would they finally shut up.
They then decided that for the length of the 4+ hour flight they would not change any of their children's diapers (about 5 or 6 babies), to stink up the plane!

Luckily, we were in the front row of economy plus, so we didn't smell anything, but plenty of others did.

I got a first hand accounting of the details from one of the flight attendants, and he assured me the plan was to land in Cuba if they hadn't settled down.

They were met by police coming on board the plane when we landed.

It is no rumor, the behavior is unbelievable!


----------



## dioxide45

So how about the "Event Weeks" at Marriott Resorts thread gets updated? It seems rather unfair to associate this whole fiasco with people from New York. It seems that the relationship to the NY Regents Exams is coincidental at best.


----------



## m61376

dioxide45 said:


> So how about the "Event Weeks" at Marriott Resorts thread gets updated? It seems rather unfair to associate this whole fiasco with people from New York. It seems that the relationship to the NY Regents Exams is coincidental at best.



The reason the exams are mentioned is that the winter school break of this group generally coincides with the NYS January Regents exams.


----------



## bobpark56

topmom101 said:


> We woke up at the crack of dawn to reserve our seats at the pool, while away from the chairs our things were removed and thrown way back on the lawn and this same group decided it was their chairs. The group was large and intimidating... we opted to go to the beach and keep our distance. We will not travel again during the month of January



Reserving chairs, huh? I think you deserved it!


----------



## LDT

A lot you are missing the point.  You are pointing the finger at the children.  It's not only them.  What about the person they have have to have in the elevators because they can't push the button?  What about the filth left in all the common bathrooms because they won't use the facilities in their room because they can't flush their own toilets?  Wake up people!  For those of you that don't think this happens, go and talk to the people that work at the SC or OC.  After experiencing this a few years ago we always go after they have left.  Don't know if its my southern charm or just that I am a polite person but I get praised by the way I talk to and treat the hard working people that have to endure this group.  
*As I said earlier, all that Marriott cares about is money.  This group has a lot of it and doesn't care to flaunt it.  *


----------



## benyu2010

LDT said:


> *As I said earlier, all that Marriott cares about is money.  This group has a lot of it and doesn't care to flaunt it.  *



They should just charter a flight and block out a small resort. Problem solved!


----------



## Ridewithme38

LDT said:


> A lot you are missing the point.  You are pointing the finger at the children.  It's not only them.  What about the person they have have to have in the elevators because they can't push the button?  What about the filth left in all the common bathrooms because they won't use the facilities in their room because they can't flush their own toilets?  Wake up people!  For those of you that don't think this happens, go and talk to the people that work at the SC or OC.  After experiencing this a few years ago we always go after they have left.  Don't know if its my southern charm or just that I am a polite person but I get praised by the way I talk to and treat the hard working people that have to endure this group.
> *As I said earlier, all that Marriott cares about is money.  This group has a lot of it and doesn't care to flaunt it.  *



They pay extra for those services, the personal chef and elevator man are paid directly out of their pockets, the...mess...in the bathrooms and lobbies are paid out of a 'bond' they put forward every year.

BTW, even the most othodox jewish people can flush toilets on the Sabbath/Shabbat...that is most definitely allowed, although, ripping toilet paper..depends of the sect, maybe not.  So the piles of toilet paper pre-ripped by the toilet is part of their tradition.


----------



## Weimaraner

Finally talked to a Marriott rep. There are two weeks in January to avoid. One is the Regents, the other is the religious group. They are very well aware of the problems with kids running unsupervised but they are owner families. I don't think Marriott would be surprised by any photos or videos. Personally I do not think the video thing is as easy as you think. For example we rode back from Stellaris on a golf cart with three unsupervised boys about 8-9 years old at night. While the cart was moving, one jumped off the right side and the other jumped in front of a moving car which was thankfully able to stop. This type of nonsense behavior is random. I've avoided this property at all costs since Tuesday's pool debacle and really don't feel like walking around with my ipad all day recording other people's kids. Maybe a hidden camera, but I wouldn't want to antagonize these bullies. I already got an earful for going to security. There are plenty of eyewitness accounts. I'm trying to salvage the rest of my vacation here before going back to freezing temps.


----------



## chris5

LDT said:


> A lot you are missing the point.
> 
> *As I said earlier, all that Marriott cares about is money.  This group has a lot of it and doesn't care to flaunt it.  *



I agree that many miss the point.  I don't think, however, that this guy at Marriott is solely concerned about money. http://www.blogs.marriott.com/.
He has a rich family legacy and if you can get to him about this situation, I don't think he'd be tone-deaf about a situation that appears to be tarnishing his family brand.

I think people need to better communicate their legitimate concerns to Marriott. Venting and ranting on blogs or internet bulletin boards doesn't seem to accomplish anything, especially when tinged with offensive remarks or anti-semitic observations about the group.  

Also, I doubt this group has a lot of money.  If they did, they'd rent out an entire resort and spare little expense to obtain the specific services they need.  I doubt that each of the families involved in this week are all 1%ers. Sounds to me like they are making due with fractional timeshare interests in a creative manner. 

It would really help me to understand this situation from the standpoint of this group.  Maybe they've worked something out with Marriott and we're all clueless about it. We only hear one side of this situation. One might wonder what they would say about their use of the resort -- maybe they think others are interfering with their quiet enjoyment at a resort that they've paid good money to use.

Just saying . . .

Ok I'm really done with posting here.


----------



## davidvel

The great thing about TUG is that is unlike any other "board" out there, the general philosophy, the specific rules, and the moderators make it so. Most of us really want to speak our mind, or give our personal feelings on issues, but when they even remotely infringe on issues of religion/politics/social issues/sensitivities, there is no going back. 

TUG's core purpose is to inform, educate, and help timeshare owners/users/noobies.  TUG has steadfastly worked to enforce its hardline rule that the line not even be approached, and that's why TUG works. 

If anyone does a little research on this topic you will understand the issues involved are complex and any commentary, in good faith or not, would cross the aforementioned line. Any discussion of the _why is it happening_, as opposed to simply _what is happening_, delves into those complex sensitive issues. 

I think we all can agree that the behaviors are unacceptable, and Marriott must do more to deal with them, but beyond this any debate or discussion as to how or why, is simply impossible within the contraints of this great place.


----------



## Beefnot

davidvel said:


> The great thing about TUG is that is unlike any other "board" out there, the general philosophy, the specific rules, and the moderators make it so. Most of us really want to speak our mind, or give our personal feelings on issues, but when they even remotely infringe on issues of religion/politics/social issues/sensitivities, there is no going back.
> 
> TUG's core purpose is to inform, educate, and help timeshare owners/users/noobies. TUG has steadfastly worked to enforce its hardline rule that the line not even be approached, and that's why TUG works.
> 
> If anyone does a little research on this topic you will understand the issues involved are complex and any commentary, in good faith or not, would cross the aforementioned line. Any discussion of the _why is it happening_, as opposed to simply _what is happening_, delves into those complex sensitive issues.
> 
> I think we all can agree that the behaviors are unacceptable, and Marriott must do more to deal with them, but beyond this any debate or discussion as to how or why, is simply impossible within the contraints of this great place.



I can agree with that.


----------



## piper_chuck

Saintsfanfl said:


> That said I still think any large group that all know each other will end with the same bad behavior reports. When we vacation at a resort we are used to other families. We are not used to a convention setting where our vacation style is the minority. Pick any of a thousand groups taking over a resort and you are going to have the same issues.



I do not agree with this assertion. Large groups of families vacationing together will only degenerate into what is described in this thread if the parents have raised their children with a sense of superiority and entitlement that makes them think they can do whatever they want. 

I assert that in fact most groups would not end up like this because most of us parents have instilled sufficient ethics and manners in our children to allow them to know right from wrong even when we're not watching. This doesn't mean they're not going to occasionally get rowdy while playing together, but not the extreme behavior described in this thread.


----------



## piper_chuck

ilene13 said:


> Management said 2 of them are owners and we cannot force them to behave well.


Management is responsible for enforcing a set of rules. If the managers at this resort are saying they are not willing to enforce those rules then the owners should take action to find managers who will.


----------



## csxjohn

chris5 said:


> Let me come to Marriott's defense here though I'm probably in the minority of views here.  I think Marriott should respect the ownership rights of all owners. Marriott can't simply go around and start kicking out owners who are not responsibly parenting their children, which appears to be the case during the so-called Hell Week.  Unfortunately, as owners in a fractional share piece of real estate, all of us are stuck with each other -- and we don't have a choice in our timeshare ownership neighbors.  Sometimes we get lucky and meet people we really like who are courteous and respectful -- from my personal observations, I've many encountered many more decent people than "jerks" in the resorts I've stayed over the years.  I would not want Marriott to start acting as the manners and parenting police; that's not their job.
> 
> Moreover, for this particular situation, Marriott probably does not want to get the push-back it might receive from taking strong aggressive action against an organization that might claim that its being unfairly targeted for rude and offensive behavior. Just think about it for a moment.  Here, in TUG, it took the intervention of the Tug Administrator to identify the group by its own name because of the apparent sensitivity others might have over naming that group/organization, and yet we implore Marriott to be aggressive against this group and incur potential backlash and push-back from those who might exhibit equal sensitivity towards this organization!
> 
> Unless this group is causing property damage to the resort or engaging in illegal conduct, which might be grounds for Marriott to terminate ownership, I'm afraid other owners of Hell Week are stuck with this group. (And we don't know if this "group" owns timeshare interests in group name or individual members of the group own the timeshare interest; in each case, there might be differing legal implications). However, the fact that Marriott is now requiring a Surety Bond with this group is a very good sign that Marriott is laying the foundation for taking appropriate action if the group starts vandalizing or damaging resort property.
> 
> For me, I still believe the leadership of the organization needs to held accountable.  I just can't fathom the idea that it condones this behavior. I'd shame it relentlessly over this. And ensure Marriott knows about it too because this is actually damaging to the Marriott brand and timeshares in general!  I'd call up the major newspapers in major media markets about this situation and suggest that they send one of their reporters to Aruba in January to investigate Hell Week -- I'm sure someone sees value in such a story.
> 
> Or better yet, next time, next year, get the cameras out and show the rude behavior -- this could go viral on YouTube!  I bet you'll get someone's attention over this.



You must have missed post #95 which points out in part

"Look through the governing docs for your resorts. There are myriad sections detailing what actions Marriott can take if the various common courtesy rules are not followed. There IS language which supports Marriott not allowing owners the use of their ownership if any owners/guests are negatively affected by others. In drastic cases there are allowances for suspending ownership."


----------



## Saintsfanfl

I don't think it's money with the MVCI resorts. Marriott that manages the MVCI resorts is not the same as the Marriott making money off the hotel and conference rooms. The management at the resorts are not getting anything from this group. One could take heat from the other but technically they are not related.


----------



## psguru

Let me clear a few things up for everyone.  This group has more than enough money.  Money isn't the issue.  As for having someone push the buttons on the elevator for them; that's a religious issue.  I have no problem with that.  

I think you have to get a better understanding of their culture.  And before anyone accuses me of anti-semitism, I'm Jewish.  My family has dealt with this group on personal and business levels for decades.   We have some great friends that are part of this group but even they will tell us never go on a vacation where they're going to be.   

There's a sense of entitlement, a general feeling that anyone not part of their group is beneath them.  This is taught from an early age.  Everyone else is a second class citizen.  There is no respect, no manners, no supervision.  

 I can't even begin to tell you how many run-ins I've had with them since I started going to Aruba in 1998.  I used to have to take off the week they did because of my kids' school schedules but never again will I.  

The best way to deal with them is to push back.  Their entire lives no one has ever said no to them.  Not their parents, not the nannies, no one.  If you push back, they won't know what to do.  

A few years ago, a group of them kept walking through our area on the beach.  Plenty of room to walk but they decided to keep walking through.  The third time I stopped them.  I asked them why they couldn't walk around like everyone else.  They had no answer.  My group and I started laughing.   I asked them again.  I even said that if it's for a good reason maybe I'd understand and apologize.   Still no answer.  They walked on and avoided us the rest of the week.  Problem solved.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

psguru said:


> *We have some great friends that are part of this group...*
> 
> *There's a sense of entitlement, a general feeling that anyone not part of their group is beneath them.  This is taught from an early age.  Everyone else is a second class citizen.  There is no respect, no manners, no supervision.  *



How can you have great friends that are part of the group if you firmly believe your statement? Are you saying that your "great" friends believe you to be beneath them and second class citizens?


----------



## psguru

We have great friends that are part of the group in general, not the group that comes down to aruba.  I would say what group it is but apparently it wouldn't be PC.


----------



## SueDonJ

Saintsfanfl said:


> How can you have great friends that are part of the group if you firmly believe your statement? Are you saying that your "great" friends believe you to be beneath them and second class citizens?



I know I have dear friends who aren't in awe of every facet of my personality and the reverse is true as well.  

Human nature is a funny thing.  Human culture is a bewildering thing.  I think Davidvel is correct, that it's probably not possible to explore this particular culture in detail without offending, possibly legitimately, someone's sensibilities.

We now can feel free to name the group when discussing this topic, which should stop 90% of the complaints/bickering that has taken place over the years.  Let's not look to resume it just yet.


----------



## Ridewithme38

psguru said:


> There's a sense of entitlement, a general feeling that anyone not part of their group is beneath them.  This is taught from an early age.  Everyone else is a second class citizen.  There is no respect, no manners, no supervision.
> .



This is completely incorrect, i have worked with people of the Orthodox religion also,  and i can tell you they were nothing but respectful and helpful to me.  Their children were fun and understanding.  

I worked in the lowest possible profession too during college, vacuuming pools on their property.  I can tell you dozens of stories of them coming out to help me when needed, coming out of pocket for tips with they saw i was working hard, even sitting around and 'keeping me company' while i worked with great conversations about anything and everything.  

I have even dealt with many children who were swimming when i showed up and they immediately got out and played somewhere else when asked, i've found frogs and turtles in 'skimmer baskets' and brought the children over to show them and they watch and listened politely as i explained about the types of turtles and frogs in the area.  Even the youngest children were 'gentle of hand' when dealing with these animals.

So i don't know WHO you've been dealing with psguru, but I think it maybe a case of 'pre-judging' instead of how they actually are.


Signed,
Seth from NY


----------



## psguru

Seth, i'm not referring to the Orthodox community whatsoever.   It's the Sephardics I'm talking about.  Completely different.  Again, it's not a religious issue.  It's an issue of respect for others.


----------



## SueDonJ

Okay, STOP!

We're not going to do this.  We're not going to give each other a chance to find insult when none is intended.

Now focus.  If you want to talk about what happens in Aruba in January at the Marriotts, knock yourself out.  If you want to talk about the people who are involved, limit your comments to what they do while they're in Aruba that causes problems for anyone else.

Cripes.  It's not even 24 hours that you've been given a victory with this topic.  Don't push your luck.


----------



## EKniager

Saintsfanfl said:


> No the specific week is most definitely there. Look at the brochure.
> 
> http://sephardicaruba.com/downloads/sephardic_aruba_brochure.pdf
> 
> The brochure indicates the enormity of the group especially with scheduled fee camps for kids that are organized at the "Marriott Hotel Beach Area". I don't care who the group would be or how well behaved I would avoid something like this like the plague. Even if this was the most well behaved group on the planet a mass that size moving together would get in the way.


As Sue noted earlier, you might want to check the days and dates again.  This brochure "most definitely" does not refer to 2014.  Sunday the 18th?  Friday dinners on the 16th and 23rd?  Not this year.


----------



## SueDonJ

Weimaraner, and anyone else who has eyewitness knowledge of what happens in January in Aruba at the Marriotts, in my and many others' opinion you have good reason to escalate your concerns from the resort personnel (who don't appear to have control of the situation) to Marriott Vacations Worldwide.  These few contacts may be able to help if you choose to take your concerns further:

Customer Care
PO Box 690549 
Orlando, FL 32869-0549
800-860-9384 
customer.care~AT~vacationclub.com

Public Relations
MVCICA~AT~vacationclub.com

Executive Leadership
6649 Westwood Blvd., Suite 500
Orlando, FL 32821
United States of America
P: 407-206-6000
(Here I think I would target Clifford M. Delorey, Executive Vice President & Chief Resort Experience Officer.  An excerpt from his bio: _"Delorey currently oversees the on-site management of Marriott Vacation Club and Grand Residences by Marriott properties around the globe, provides oversight and coordination of the on-site management company for The Ritz-Carlton Destination Club, and is responsible for the development and financial performance of resort-based ancillary businesses."_)

(Change ~AT~ to @, of course.)


----------



## Saintsfanfl

EKniager said:


> As Sue noted earlier, you might want to check the days and dates again.  This brochure "most definitely" does not refer to 2014.  Sunday the 18th?  Friday dinners on the 16th and 23rd?  Not this year.



Either they already did the brochure for 2015 or they made a mistake on the dates. Sunday is the 18th for next year. Certainly the brochure isn't so old it refers to 2009??


----------



## SueDonJ

Saintsfanfl said:


> Either they already did the brochure for 2015 or they made a mistake on the dates. Sunday is the 18th for next year. Certainly the brochure isn't so old it refers to 2009??



That link is that old, and that website hasn't been updated in years (since negative reports all over the web included links to the site.)  That's one reason why the NY Regents Exams schedule is usually linked in TUG threads, because we haven't had a means to officially verify dates but more often than not the dates coincide despite there being different groups.

Some here have said that it's possible to verify upcoming dates on the web.  I didn't think it was still possible with that website being inactive and the school's website also not current to a year ahead, but if anyone wants to share an active site that works it would be appreciated.


----------



## Sullco2

*a story*

_[You suspected correctly - this is not helpful.]_


----------



## csxjohn

topmom101 said:


> ...They then decided that for the length of the 4+ hour flight they would not change any of their children's diapers (about 5 or 6 babies), to stink up the plane!
> 
> ...



[_deleted_]

I'm glad this thread and others like it have made me aware of this situation.  If I ever plan a trip to Aruba I'll be re-visiting this thread for dates and resorts.


----------



## rpk113

*Knock yourselves out*

[deleted - no need]


----------



## billymach4

Why is this year's thread permitted to languish and prosper for so long. We all get the drift here, but I am really perplexed as to why the mods continue to permit bashing of this particular group. 

While I don't agree with the abuse that the guests have to endure. (BTW I own at this resort) there is blatant prejudice, and stereotyping in this thread. 

This needs to stop now! 

Especially from post #172 and the link. 

By the way RPK113 you may live in Rockland, but this particular subgroup appears to be from Queens, or other parts of NYC.

I would venture to say they come from parts of Nassau County, like Great Neck and the South Shore including the 5 towns area rather than the Rockland sect.


----------



## SueDonJ

_[Link disabled, post being reviewed.]_

Is this school affiliated with the trip to Aruba?  Did you mean to include this link as a way to verify the dates for upcoming years?  Because I can't get the calendar to load past October 2014.


----------



## infamazz

SueDonJ said:


> Just to clarify - the brochure that's available for download on the website mentions Sunday, January 18th through Friday, January 23rd.  Those days/dates do not correspond to the 2014 calendar, and in fact the website/brochure has not been updated since the first year that the activities were negatively described on the web.  It's been quite a few years since the group has used the internet to organize this trip.
> 
> As far as trying to pin down whether it's Week 3 or 4, or tie it to the exact dates of NY Regents Exams schedules, we haven't been able to do it because it changes every year.  Suffice it to say that if you don't want to be a part of it, you probably shouldn't risk a stay either week.



As the NYS Regents Week theory has now been discredited, it seems to me that the week usually coincides with MLK week. At least that's what it has coiincided with over the past several years from my readings on the topic. Sometimes MLK week falls on the 15th, sometimes on the 21st. That would explain the difference in Hell Week seemingly falling in the middle of the month sometimes rather than later.


----------



## jimf41

The thread continues because folks are outraged by the behavior. Since this particular group has done this year after year it's time to put put the PC stuff away and call them out on every possible forum.

No problem has ever been resolved by people refusing to discuss it or having others try to dissuade you from discussing it. Personally I hope this is the top thread throughout the year.


----------



## SueDonJ

Please, use the "Report Post" function if you have a problem with a certain post.  We mods are doing what we can but it doesn't help if you add further commentary to a questionable post.

As has been stated in this and other related threads many times, the reason TUG allows the discussion is because without it, folks may find themselves in the center of what some have come to believe is a terrible situation.  I don't think any of us would prefer that the topic be forever banned because we're not able to discuss it civilly.


----------



## SueDonJ

infamazz said:


> As the NYS Regents Week theory has now been discredited, it seems to me that the week usually coincides with MLK week. At least that's what it has coiincided with over the past several years from my readings on the topic. Sometimes MLK week falls on the 15th, sometimes on the 21st. That would explain the difference in Hell Week seemingly falling in the middle of the month sometimes rather than later.



Thanks, I wondered about that connection, too.  A few different things in the Sticky posts will be reviewed during the next week or so and this is one of them.


----------



## rpk113

SueDonJ said:


> _[Link disabled, post being reviewed.]_
> 
> Is this school affiliated with the trip to Aruba?  Did you mean to include this link as a way to verify the dates for upcoming years?  Because I can't get the calendar to load past October 2014.



just calendar...


----------



## SueDonJ

rpk113 said:


> just calendar...



Are you able to load it through January and verify that the school is involved?  The link is useless if not.


----------



## rpk113

SueDonJ said:


> Are you able to load it through January and verify that the school is involved?  The link is useless if not.



Perhaps..  but could be helpful to others..  You can usually assume its MLK week (not all the time, but I give it a safe 90%)


----------



## Fern Modena

_:::sigh:::_ "Sephardic" Jewish refers to the area where they or their ancestors come from. The other main group is Ashkenazic. Neither group is a group of people who go to Aruba, who you are painting with a wide brush. There is a group of Sephardi who are organized by a specific Rabbi who go every year. I have no idea if they are from the same synaguage or not.

Sephardi generally come from Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, and the Spanish speaking areas of Mexico, Central and south America (although some South American Jewish people are decendents of Ashkenazi). Ashkenazi come from Europe (except as above) and eastern Rurope.

I am Ashkenazi. End of history lesson. 

Fern



psguru said:


> Seth, i'm not referring to the Orthodox community whatsoever.   It's the Sephardics I'm talking about.  Completely different.  Again, it's not a religious issue.  It's an issue of respect for others.


----------



## rpk113

billymach4 said:


> Why is this year's thread permitted to languish and prosper for so long. We all get the drift here, but I am really perplexed as to why the mods continue to permit bashing of this particular group.
> 
> While I don't agree with the abuse that the guests have to endure. (BTW I own at this resort) there is blatant prejudice, and stereotyping in this thread.
> 
> This needs to stop now!
> 
> Especially from post #172 and the link.
> 
> By the way RPK113 you may live in Rockland, but this particular subgroup appears to be from Queens, or other parts of NYC.
> 
> I would venture to say they come from parts of Nassau County, like Great Neck and the South Shore including the 5 towns area rather than the Rockland sect.




Billy did I give away my childhood home that easily?   I disagree with you, but its fair to have your point.  Like psguru said, i have friends in these communities and I enjoy their company so I dont lump them all into one "faction".  But I'll throw another old saying out there "One rotten apple spoils the bunch".


----------



## billymach4

I have a suggestion. Perhaps the OP or anyone that is at the Aruba Surf Club now can gather some real "Intel". 

Seriously... Please get friendly with one of the Adults of this group, or perhaps a few of the adult couples. Find out Who, How, or What arranges this gathering year after year. Use a cover story like " I really think it is great that you all get together every year" Blah Blah Blah. 

Get some real useful info. PM to me or anyone else. I will assist in finding out who, and how this is organized. 

Then we can start to maybe let the organization know how foolish they are being viewed to the outside world.

Otherwise we are all guessing , beating around the bush, looking at useless links and calendars trying to nail it down.


----------



## billymach4

rpk113 said:


> Billy did I give away my childhood home that easily?   I disagree with you, but its fair to have your point.  Like psguru said, i have friends in these communities and I enjoy their company so I dont lump them all into one "faction".  But I'll throw another old saying out there "One rotten apple spoils the bunch".



Believe me... I know the kind of "Rotten Apples" that are being discussed here. I have witnessed this behavior outside of Aruba.


----------



## rpk113

I too, at least we agree on that...


----------



## SueDonJ

billymach4 said:


> I have a suggestion. Perhaps the OP or anyone that is at the Aruba Surf Club now can gather some real "Intel".
> 
> Seriously... Please get friendly with one of the Adults of this group, or perhaps a few of the adult couples. Find out Who, How, or What arranges this gathering year after year. Use a cover story like " I really think it is great that you all get together every year" Blah Blah Blah.
> 
> Get some real useful info. PM to me or anyone else. I will assist in finding out who, and how this is organized.
> 
> Then we can start to maybe let the organization know how foolish they are being viewed to the outside world.
> 
> Otherwise we are all guessing , beating around the bush, looking at useless links and calendars trying to nail it down.



You have that contact information in the link previously discussed that's outdated. (sephardicaruba.com)  Just because it's not updated with current dates and activities, doesn't mean it can't be used as a point of reference for the folks who organize this same trip every year.

In the hope of advancing a civil conversation on TUG about this, I hope you'll share any relevant or positive feedback that you receive.


----------



## SueDonJ

Fern Modena said:


> _:::sigh:::_ "Sephardic" Jewish refers to the area where they or their ancestors come from. The other main group is Ashkenazic. Neither group is a group of people who go to Aruba, who you are painting with a wide brush. There is a group of Sephardi who are organized by a specific Rabbi who go every year. I have no idea if they are from the same synaguage or not.
> 
> Sephardi generally come from Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, and the Spanish speaking areas of Mexico, Central and south America (although some South American Jewish people are decendents of Ashkenazi). Ashkenazi come from Europe (except as above) and eastern Rurope.
> 
> I am Ashkenazi. End of history lesson.
> 
> Fern



Thank you, Fern.  I do worry that I don't know enough to know whether the things I say can be construed as insulting when that's certainly not my intent.  Every little bit of knowledge helps.


----------



## DB-Wis

After 188 posts over three days, I think this horse (i.e., this topic) has been beat to death. 

I suggest that anyone who feels compelled to say something more on this topic should write it down, wait 24 hours, and then, if it still seems important, post it.

I'm all for open discussion, but sometimes these things just have to end.


----------



## caterina25

Ridewithme38 said:


> I don't understand what's wrong with that. I was a very strong swimmer from a young age, my daughter was about average. I wouldn't have had a problem with her in a lazy river at 3 or 4.
> 
> That is another question i have.....If they are doing damage to the resort that is a major issue and something that needs to be dealt with and the disrespect to the OP is NOT to be tolerated, i would have dragged that kid by its arm back to mom and dad and made sure they learned better....But, kids being kids, playing catch, climbing on rocks, running/jumping, swimming....may annoy you, but kids deserve to enjoy their vacation also.
> 
> Signed,
> Seth from NY


Then make sure you book that week, if you go.We could then get your perspective of the kids being kids.


----------



## Ridewithme38

caterina25 said:


> Then make sure you book that week, if you go.We could then get your perspective of the kids being kids.



I'm booked at Smugglers Notch for the July 4th holiday....I doubt it'll be much different


----------



## Larry

*"The Group"*



Fern Modena said:


> _:::sigh:::_ "Sephardic" Jewish refers to the area where they or their ancestors come from. The other main group is Ashkenazic. Neither group is a group of people who go to Aruba, who you are painting with a wide brush. There is a group of Sephardi who are organized by a specific Rabbi who go every year. I have no idea if they are from the same synaguage or not.
> 
> Sephardi generally come from Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, and the Spanish speaking areas of Mexico, Central and south America (although some South American Jewish people are decendents of Ashkenazi). Ashkenazi come from Europe (except as above) and eastern Rurope.
> 
> I am Ashkenazi. End of history lesson.
> 
> Fern



Fern you are the first person on this board who has any idea of what you are talking about when referring to "The Group". Again as others have said trying to identify a group in order to "out" them is not what anyone on this board should be concerned about. Several people on this board are painting a wide brush in a disparaging and sometimes nasty manner and chastising and entire group when this is a very small faction within the sephardic community.

As Fern states and I will enlighten everyone even further Sepahardic jews come from all of the areas that Fern mentioned plus Northern Africa (ie Ethiopia and Morroco) Middle Eastern countries such as Syria, Egypt, or Iran and many spanish speaking countries. As you can see this is a wide and diverse group of people and I for one take offense to outing "sephardic Jews, orthodox jews and jews in general" etc etc as these threads have degenerated to and I am glad that the powers that be at TUG have eliminated most of these threads.

So getting back on point most private Hebrew schools are closed in NY and NJ during January. The week in question always starts on the third Thursday in January and that is why it is usually week 3 but can be week 4 depending on what your check in day is. Check in days at Surf Club start Thursday, Friday, Saturday or Sunday ( I am not sure if they have a Monday Check in day). I own at the Ocean Club and their check in days are Friday-Monday.

As you can see the week that "the group" is there falls within that timeframe every year and although that will almost always coincide with ML King day or NY Regents neither, has anything to do with when the group is there.

Let's be sure we are talking of a small group relative to the entire Sephardic community and they almost all own two Platinum weeks at either the Surf Club or the Ocean club. They are also mostly part of a few extended sephardic families of Syrian origin and come every year. If you don't want to be there in the future it should be pretty easy for everyone to now figure out the dates. Most of my friends are appalled by the behavior that is exhibited by some within this group of about 200 people but to condemn all who practice a common religion or come from one of the sephardic regions mentioned should not be part of any discussion on this or any other board.


----------



## SueDonJ

Thank you, Larry.  Just like my response to Fern, it's appreciated that you're sharing your knowledge.  If we'd been able to discuss the topic fully for all these years, maybe any misinformation wouldn't have persisted.


----------



## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> I'm booked at Smugglers Notch for the July 4th holiday....I doubt it'll be much different



If not, I hope you share your experiences then.


----------



## chris5

Fern Modena said:


> _:::sigh:::_ "Sephardic" Jewish refers to the area where they or their ancestors come from. The other main group is Ashkenazic. Neither group is a group of people who go to Aruba, who you are painting with a wide brush. There is a group of Sephardi who are organized by a specific Rabbi who go every year. I have no idea if they are from the same synaguage or not.
> 
> Sephardi generally come from Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, and the Spanish speaking areas of Mexico, Central and south America (although some South American Jewish people are decendents of Ashkenazi). Ashkenazi come from Europe (except as above) and eastern Rurope.
> 
> I am Ashkenazi. End of history lesson.
> 
> Fern



Sigh, your history lesson appears incomplete. You left out Sephardi from the African Continent in the Sahara region.  Not to mention the omission of Beta Israel of Ethiopia. I'll let knowledgeable historians discuss Mizrahi, which is another story altogether.

I'm not competent to discuss this history and all of this is beside the point of the thread.  The confusion it appears to me about painting with a broad brush resulted from not placing the object of attention on the one Rabbi, one Temple, one group of people who vacation at the Marriott Aruba Resorts during one week in January every year.  They received a free pass from appropriate condemnation for their rude, uncivil and, in some cases, outrageous behavior because of reluctance to call them out.   

I agree that some of the condemnatory language used might have unfortunately included blatant stereotyping and anti-Semitic tones, but this language is now called out by the Moderators and over-the-top, clear anti-Semitism language will now, according to TUG, get you banned from this forum.


----------



## TUGBrian

I personally could care less what "group" they are a part of...other than being a group of people who appear to have no consideration of others.

I have read nearly every post, and have yet to see someone claim that every other person of the same ANYTHING other than this specific group of organized folk....are to blame for any of this.

If you are offended by a group of folks who go by a specific name themselves, being called that specific name...well then stop opening this post.

noone here will put down the jewish religion, or even this particular sect of it (if im even saying that right)....nor have I seen that happen to date in this thread.


----------



## ilene13

Larry said:


> Fern you are the first person on this board who has any idea of what you are talking about when referring to "The Group". Again as others have said trying to identify a group in order to "out" them is not what anyone on this board should be concerned about. Several people on this board are painting a wide brush in a disparaging and sometimes nasty manner and chastising and entire group when this is a very small faction within the sephardic community.
> 
> As Fern states and I will enlighten everyone even further Sepahardic jews come from all of the areas that Fern mentioned plus Northern Africa (ie Ethiopia and Morroco) Middle Eastern countries such as Syria, Egypt, or Iran and many spanish speaking countries. As you can see this is a wide and diverse group of people and I for one take offense to outing "sephardic Jews, orthodox jews and jews in general" etc etc as these threads have degenerated to and I am glad that the powers that be at TUG have eliminated most of these threads.
> 
> So getting back on point most private Hebrew schools are closed in NY and NJ during January. The week in question always starts on the third Thursday in January and that is why it is usually week 3 but can be week 4 depending on what your check in day is. Check in days at Surf Club start Thursday, Friday, Saturday or Sunday ( I am not sure if they have a Monday Check in day). I own at the Ocean Club and their check in days are Friday-Monday.
> 
> As you can see the week that "the group" is there falls within that timeframe every year and although that will almost always coincide with ML King day or NY Regents neither, has anything to do with when the group is there.
> 
> Let's be sure we are talking of a small group relative to the entire Sephardic community and they almost all own two Platinum weeks at either the Surf Club or the Ocean club. They are also mostly part of a few extended sephardic families of Syrian origin and come every year. If you don't want to be there in the future it should be pretty easy for everyone to now figure out the dates. Most of my friends are appalled by the behavior that is exhibited by some within this group of about 200 people but to condemn all who practice a common religion or come from one of the sephardic regions mentioned should not be part of any discussion on this or any other board.




Thank you both.  My heritage is both Ashkenazi and Sephardic.  The behaviors of the group has absolutely nothing to do with their heritage only their entitlement issues.


----------



## HatTrick

*BUMP*

It's been over an hour since the last post.


----------



## billymach4

SueDonJ said:


> You have that contact information in the link previously discussed that's outdated. (sephardicaruba.com)  Just because it's not updated with current dates and activities, doesn't mean it can't be used as a point of reference for the folks who organize this same trip every year.
> 
> In the hope of advancing a civil conversation on TUG about this, I hope you'll share any relevant or positive feedback that you receive.



Bingo!!! Great!

Do a reverse look up on 718-627-5300. 
This is the number to the Sephardic Lebanese Congregation. The phone number is in the sehpardicaruba.com site.

Here is the link. http://slcsynagogue.org/

Rabbi Elbaz is mentioned in the sephardicaruba.com, and the synagogue site.

Sue we can take this offline if you would like? I am of the opinion that the leaders of this community should be aware of the "perceived"  behavior of this group. How would should we proceed. I am willing to help but I don't want to offend anyone in the group. I need the support of the TUG community, if I am going to represent TUG.


----------



## billymach4

HatTrick said:


> *BUMP*
> 
> It's been over an hour since the last post.



Why so quiet? Sue must be off shift?


----------



## Ridewithme38

billymach4 said:


> Bingo!!! Great!
> 
> Do a reverse look up on 718-627-5300.
> This is the number to the Sephardic Lebanese Congregation. The phone number is in the sehpardicaruba.com site.
> 
> Here is the link. http://slcsynagogue.org/
> 
> Rabbi Elbaz is mentioned in the sephardicaruba.com, and the synagogue site.
> 
> Sue we can take this offline if you would like? I am of the opinion that the leaders of this community should be aware of the "perceived"  behavior of this group. How would should we proceed. I am willing to help but I don't want to offend anyone in the group. I need the support of the TUG community, if I am going to represent TUG.



I really think when talking to the rabbi its just as important HOW you say things as well as WHAT you say.  I would make sure I completely understood what is religious right(piles of clean toilet paper, elevator operator, private chef) and what is unacceptable( children threatening guests, quiet hours not being respected, dangers of false fire alarms)


----------



## billymach4

Ridewithme38 said:


> I really think when talking to the rabbi its just as important HOW you say things as well as WHAT you say.  I would make sure I completely understood what is religious right(piles of clean toilet paper, elevator operator, private chef) and what is unacceptable( children threatening guests, quiet hours not being respected, dangers of false fire alarms)



The elevator operator is for the Sabbath, Chef to prepare kosher meals..... Everyone needs clean toilet paper... (What do mean by the "piles of clean toilet paper?)

None of the above is part of the problem. Maybe that is what a lot of the offended guests just don't understand. They won't eat at the onsite restaurants since the food in not certified kosher. Everyone needs to understand these are religious observances that all observant and very Religious Jewish people practice.


----------



## Ridewithme38

Ripping toilet paper on the sabbath is considered work. The very observant prerip toilet paper and set it aside so that they have something to use on the sabbath.


----------



## billymach4

Ridewithme38 said:


> Ripping toilet paper on the sabbath is considered work. The very observant prerip toilet paper and set it aside so that they have something to use on the sabbath.



Oy Vey! That makes sense now!


----------



## billymach4

Ridewithme38 said:


> I really think when talking to the rabbi its just as important HOW you say things as well as WHAT you say.  I would make sure I completely understood what is religious right(piles of clean toilet paper, elevator operator, private chef) and what is unacceptable( children threatening guests, quiet hours not being respected, dangers of false fire alarms)



Ride....

Lets take a ride to Brooklyn and have a sit down with the Rabbi. You can be my wingman!


----------



## Ridewithme38

billymach4 said:


> Ride....
> 
> Lets take a ride to Brooklyn and have a sit down with the Rabbi. You can be my wingman!



I have a phobia of religious buildings, the odds are good it will get struck by lightning or some kind of plague will be sent down as soon as I walk through the door. I try to stay out of the houses that i know i don't belong in, no matter which sign is on the door.

(no offense to the religious out there, i have a storied history with religion that, no matter who is looking down, wouldn't be happy about)


----------



## SueDonJ

HatTrick said:


> *BUMP*
> 
> It's been over an hour since the last post.





billymach4 said:


> Why so quiet? Sue must be off shift?



I'm trying to get my house cleaned and my packing done; we're off to Barony tomorrow!  It's going to feel like springtime there after these frigid temps in the Boston area.  Can't wait.


----------



## Ridewithme38

SueDonJ said:


> I'm trying to get my house cleaned and my packing done; we're off to Barony tomorrow!  It's going to feel like springtime there after these frigid temps in the Boston area.  Can't wait.



Can you pack me in one of your suitcases? I need a vacation!


----------



## suzannesimon

People in the majority sometimes lose their knowledge of proper behavior which upsets the minority.  In 2007 we went on a small ship cruise ( 100 passengers) and most of the passengers, except for 6 of us, were Denver trophy wives, some with their "new" husbands   The good points were we got to sit at the Captain's table every night.
 (no insult intended, Denver) and they never went on any shore excusions  because they were too cool for that.   Ethnicity and religion have nothing to do with good behavior.  Bottom line, you either have class or you don't.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

Maybe using a code number for the group will work (rather than a name). I propose numbers that they are familiar with: 718-516-212-914-201.


----------



## SueDonJ

billymach4 said:


> Bingo!!! Great!
> 
> Do a reverse look up on 718-627-5300.
> This is the number to the Sephardic Lebanese Congregation. The phone number is in the sehpardicaruba.com site.
> 
> Here is the link. http://slcsynagogue.org/
> 
> Rabbi Elbaz is mentioned in the sephardicaruba.com, and the synagogue site.
> 
> Sue we can take this offline if you would like? I am of the opinion that the leaders of this community should be aware of the "perceived"  behavior of this group. How would should we proceed. I am willing to help but I don't want to offend anyone in the group. I need the support of the TUG community, if I am going to represent TUG.



Great sleuthing, Billy.

First, I wouldn't tell anyone I was "representing TUG" unless Brian gave his consent - not for any discussion including this one.

Second, I've been interested in this topic since the very first time I read about it here - even knowing that with human nature being what it is, probably some of what's been reported over the years has been embellished.  But I've never had any doubt that enough owners/guests onsite in Aruba have had their vacations negatively affected by what happens there, and that Marriott owes something (at the very least, an acknowledgement that there's a problem) to those owners/guests.

My opinion is that speaking with the group leaders shouldn't be done by anyone except whichever Marriott officials are responsible for contracting with them, and maybe anybody who is personally connected with the group and concerned enough to approach them.  Anyone who hasn't been an eyewitness isn't credible enough, I don't think, to put her/himself in the type of position you're talking about.

So I guess what I'm saying is, TUG doesn't have the right or the responsibility to act as a liaison, not unless Brian wants to take up that umbrella himself.  What TUG can do, and I think has done very well, is educate anyone who comes looking for info.  If anyone from the group wants to use TUG contact info to ask my opinion further I'll be happy to share it, but the chance of that happening is zero - they don't owe me the time of day.  Same thing for any Marriott eyes watching this - I'd be very happy to put together a history of links from over the years but pretty sure they're not going to ask.  Besides, I'd bet the farm that they've already collected them.


----------



## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> Can you pack me in one of your suitcases? I need a vacation!



Not a chance - it's already overstuffed.  One of these years I'm going to have to knuckle down and learn how to pack just enough.


----------



## Mr. Vker

Sue: Are you putting in for OT while you keep this thread on the straight and narrow?


----------



## SueDonJ

Mr. Vker said:


> Sue: Are you putting in for OT while you keep this thread on the straight and narrow?



Yes, and maybe adding the packing time to my billable hours as well.  Ssshhhh, don't tell.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> Not a chance - it's already overstuffed.  One of these years I'm going to have to knuckle down and learn how to pack just enough.



Haha- completely off topic...but I secretly think my DH celebrated when the airlines adopted that 50 lb. wt. limit. I always get teased about having the heaviest bag; on the other hand, whenever anyone forgets anything, I'm the one they ask " do you have any ---?" And no one seems to mind my overpacking when they need something they forgot.

Have a great trip! Sounds like the weather next week portends to be cold and colder, so I'm sure it will be a welcome break.


----------



## topmom101

TUGBrian said:


> I personally could care less what "group" they are a part of...other than being a group of people who appear to have no consideration of others.
> 
> I have read nearly every post, and have yet to see someone claim that every other person of the same ANYTHING other than this specific group of organized folk....are to blame for any of this.
> 
> If you are offended by a group of folks who go by a specific name themselves, being called that specific name...well then stop opening this post.
> 
> noone here will put down the jewish religion, or even this particular sect of it (if im even saying that right)....nor have I seen that happen to date in this thread.



Thank you, Brian, you took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## piper_chuck

SueDonJ said:


> I'm trying to get my house cleaned and my packing done; we're off to Barony tomorrow!  It's going to feel like springtime there after these frigid temps in the Boston area.  Can't wait.


It's not all that warm down this way, but it's certainly better than up there. Temp is 16 outside right now here in Columbia. Supposed to warm up to the 60s on Monday at HHI and then back to low 40s and upper 30s. At least we don't have any of that white stuff on the ground...


----------



## EKniager

topmom101 said:


> Thank you, Brian, you took the words right out of my mouth.



Well then let's unwrap 6+ years of this discussion... unedited.  There'll be plenty to see.

I think the problem here is perspective.  If you aren't part of the offended group, while you have a right to an opinion, you do not get to decide for them what is offensive or where the line is for oversensitivity.  For example, I don't have kids, but I think most parents, particularly mothers are incredibly oversensitive with respect to a whole host of issues.  Regardless of my right to that opinion, not being a mother or a father, my opinion is meaningless and maybe offensive to them.


----------



## Ridewithme38

It would be interesting to put together a list of the offending behavior so we can  go through it and see what is religious tradition or kids being kids vs what is actually dangerous and wrong.  

For example, i was a SBP last summer and there were a host(about a dozen) of pre-teens that sort of built a 'wall' of themselves in the lazy river, they were also playing catch and jumping in and out of it(trying to jump into tubes).  TO ME, that's just kids being kids, i can see how it can be obnoxious to those without kids, or, the older generation who just came to chillax, but in general, that's normal fun kid behavior.


----------



## Joe33426

EducatedConsumer said:


> Maybe using a code number for the group will work (rather than a name). I propose numbers that they are familiar with: 718-561-212-914-201.



Hey... I live in two of those area codes.  I've very offended by your comments :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

All kidding aside, I'm just very grateful that I now know about hell week.   I'm wondering if there are any other areas/resorts to avoid during "special" weeks?  

I was in Anaheim last summer for a conference at the same time as VidCon http://vidcon.com/ and it was not a good experience. About 10,000 kids from the ages of 10 - 18 in the same hotel.  I ended up getting 1/2 my stay comped and the manager let me use the service elevators for the week.  It was a crazy week.


----------



## Ridewithme38

Joe33426 said:


> All kidding aside, I'm just very grateful that I now know about hell week.   I'm wondering if there are any other areas/resorts to avoid during "special" weeks?  .



I have a daughter who i travel with, i will not go to either of the 'bike weeks', there is a 'fantasy fest' in Key West that isn't kid friendly and IMO, any trip to Boston during baseball season, if you're from NY isn't a good idea.


----------



## Beaglemom3

Ridewithme38 said:


> I have a daughter who i travel with, i will not go to either of the 'bike weeks', there is a 'fantasy fest' in Key West that isn't kid friendly and IMO, any trip to Boston during baseball season, if you're from NY isn't a good idea.



  ,,.,,,, or "Orangemen" to South Boston on St. Paddy's Day.


----------



## billymach4

Ridewithme38 said:


> I have a daughter who i travel with, i will not go to either of the 'bike weeks', there is a 'fantasy fest' in Key West that isn't kid friendly and IMO, any trip to Boston during baseball season, if you're from NY isn't a good idea.



Just wear Red Sox apparel.


----------



## Ridewithme38

billymach4 said:


> Just wear Red Sox apparel.



NEVER!  My Yankees hat is a 'have to bring' item on any vacation!


----------



## billymach4

Ridewithme38 said:


> NEVER!  My Yankees hat is a 'have to bring' item on any vacation!



You are a religious believer of the Yankee Church located in the Bronx. Mmm
..


----------



## Beaglemom3

Ridewithme38 said:


> NEVER!  My Yankees hat is a 'have to bring' item on any vacation!



  Then I can no longer protect you. You'll be on your own in Bean Town. Nice knowing you. I am  glad for the years we had together.


----------



## Pat H

SueDonJ said:


> I'm trying to get my house cleaned and my packing done; we're off to Barony tomorrow!  It's going to feel like springtime there after these frigid temps in the Boston area.  Can't wait.



I hope it gets warmer for you. Yesterday it didn't even get out of the 30's and they are calling for the possibility of that 4 letter word snow on Tuesday or Wednesday though I doubt you would get any on the island. This is my 4th winter here and it has been by far the coldest.

I would love to meet you. I have an extremely crazy week but Wed or Thurs might work.


----------



## SpikeMauler

Ridewithme38 said:


> NEVER!  My Yankees hat is a 'have to bring' item on any vacation!





Beaglemom3 said:


> Then I can no longer protect you. You'll be on your own in Bean Town. Nice knowing you. I am  glad for the years we had together.



I've only been to Boston once. Went there to catch a Yankee game at Fenway and stay the weekend. It was the first time the Yankees were in Boston after 9/11. It was also Patriots Day weekend so the City was very busy. There were about 10 of us, most of us were NYPD or FDNY. Some wore Yankees hats, some wore FDNY or NYPD hats. The locals treated us awesome. Every bar we were in people were buying us drinks(including the bartenders)and shaking our hands. We had a lot of conversations about 9/11 and the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry. Now being 2014 I'm not so sure how I'd be treated walking around Boston in a Yankees hat(especially after a Yankee win)....lol. That said, I'll never forget how well the people of Boston treated us that weekend.


----------



## Beaglemom3

SpikeMauler said:


> I've only been to Boston once. Went there to catch a Yankee game at Fenway and stay the weekend. It was the first time the Yankees were in Boston after 9/11. It was also Patriots Day weekend so the City was very busy. There were about 10 of us, most of us were NYPD or FDNY. Some wore Yankees hats, some wore FDNY or NYPD hats. The locals treated us awesome. Every bar we were in people were buying us drinks(including the bartenders)and shaking our hands. We had a lot of conversations about 9/11 and the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry. Now being 2014 I'm not so sure how I'd be treated walking around Boston in a Yankees hat(especially after a Yankee win)....lol. That said, I'll never forget how well the people of Boston treated us that weekend.



 Friend, you deserve to be treated well no matter where you go and I hope it will be the same when you return here.


----------



## m61376

Ridewithme38 said:


> It would be interesting to put together a list of the offending behavior so we can  go through it and see what is religious tradition or kids being kids vs what is actually dangerous and wrong.


The only things, which some have taken umbrage about, that Marriott has agreed to in order to accommodate the group's religious observances are providing an elevator attendant (or having what is referred to as a "Sabbath elevator," which is an elevator that stops at every floor from Friday sunset to Saturday night in lieu of having an attendant), having pre-ripped sheets of toilet paper or bathroom tissues, and providing kosher catering facilities. 

While many of the other things can be categorized as "kids being kids," many things reported are, at the very least rude and inconsiderate, and others, such as jumping from the rocks into the Lazy River, potentially dangerous to both themselves and to others.

While I certainly appreciate the oftentimes daunting task of moderating these forums, as others have pointed out these threads have been fraught with both pointed and insinuated anti-Semitic commentary over the years. While discussing the offensive behavior is germane, sarcastic references to garb, dietary tastes, etc., which have pervaded these threads can be very offensive to members of the larger religious community who would never consider participating in any of the other offensive behaviors. While I appreciate that this year such references have been minimized, there was at least one such offensive comment referring to religious garb and I appreciate the moderator's efforts at quickly removing it (so quickly that I'm assuming Brian didn't even notice it).


----------



## SpikeMauler

Beaglemom3 said:


> Friend, you deserve to be treated well no matter where you go and I hope it will be the same when you return here.



Thanks Beaglemom3. I'll get back there someday.


----------



## Ridewithme38

You know, there are soo many Long Island members here....We've got to have a meet or something one day, maybe at gurney's or the Montauk Manor.  I wonder what the other Vacationers would think if WE showed up a few hundred strong?


----------



## EducatedConsumer

Joe33426 said:


> Hey... I live in two of those area codes.  I've very offended by your comments :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:
> 
> All kidding aside, I'm just very grateful that I now know about hell week.   I'm wondering if there are any other areas/resorts to avoid during "special" weeks?
> 
> I was in Anaheim last summer for a conference at the same time as VidCon http://vidcon.com/ and it was not a good experience. About 10,000 kids from the ages of 10 - 18 in the same hotel.  I ended up getting 1/2 my stay comped and the manager let me use the service elevators for the week.  It was a crazy week.



Thanks for picking up on my oversight. I meant to say 516 instead of 561, but you and I both know that 3/4 of the 561 area code comes from 718-516-212-914 and 201. Related, on landing of a jetBlue flight from JFK to Fort Lauderdale, the flight attendant welcomed us to "New York City's sixth borough."


----------



## billymach4

EducatedConsumer said:


> Thanks for picking up on my oversight. I meant to say 516 instead of 561, but you and I both know that 3/4 of the 561 area code comes from 718-516-212-914 and 201. Related, on landing of a jetBlue flight from JFK to Fort Lauderdale, the flight attendant welcomed us to "New York City's sixth borough."



And when you fly into JFK you are welcomed to JAMAICA......

Jamaica, NY...

Van Wyck and JFK Expressway
Jamaica, NY 11430


----------



## billymach4

SueDonJ said:


> Great sleuthing, Billy.
> 
> First, I wouldn't tell anyone I was "representing TUG" unless Brian gave his consent - not for any discussion including this one.
> 
> Second, I've been interested in this topic since the very first time I read about it here - even knowing that with human nature being what it is, probably some of what's been reported over the years has been embellished.  But I've never had any doubt that enough owners/guests onsite in Aruba have had their vacations negatively affected by what happens there, and that Marriott owes something (at the very least, an acknowledgement that there's a problem) to those owners/guests.
> 
> My opinion is that speaking with the group leaders shouldn't be done by anyone except whichever Marriott officials are responsible for contracting with them, and maybe anybody who is personally connected with the group and concerned enough to approach them.  Anyone who hasn't been an eyewitness isn't credible enough, I don't think, to put her/himself in the type of position you're talking about.
> 
> So I guess what I'm saying is, TUG doesn't have the right or the responsibility to act as a liaison, not unless Brian wants to take up that umbrella himself.  What TUG can do, and I think has done very well, is educate anyone who comes looking for info.  If anyone from the group wants to use TUG contact info to ask my opinion further I'll be happy to share it, but the chance of that happening is zero - they don't owe me the time of day.  Same thing for any Marriott eyes watching this - I'd be very happy to put together a history of links from over the years but pretty sure they're not going to ask.  Besides, I'd bet the farm that they've already collected them.



It is with reasonable certainty to conclude that a large group affiliated with a Synagogue located in Brooklyn, NY is rude, and disruptive during the 3rd, and 4th week of January at the Marriott Complex located in Palm Beach. For all of the details refer to post 199 in this thread. There is a URL that lists activities, along with a phone number and name that is directly tied to the Rabbi, and the Synagogue. I am not painting a broad brush here due to the Religious beliefs, or the the entire Religion. Over the years so much has been speculated about this group, and I too have interested in this topic since I am an owner and it affects my wallet if the property I pay to maintain is repeated abused year after year! 

With regards to the other owners and guests that have to endure the emotional distress of a lousy time while on vacation I would finally say ....

Share the information on 

1) Trip Advisor, The other Aruba forums,   Flyertalk , FB, twitter, or whatever social media you prefer.  Just stick to the facts, and emphasize that you have nothing against their personal beliefs. It is just the abusive behavior that is offensive.

When this group realizes that they are being noticed by the Social Media community they may begin to modify there actions while in Aruba. 

2) Write / Call / Complain to Marriott as well!

3 Sue you may want to include the findings in post 199 in your sticky.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

billymach4 said:


> It is with reasonable certainty to conclude that a large group affiliated with a Synagogue located in Brooklyn, NY is rude, and disruptive during the 3rd, and 4th week of January at the Marriott Complex located in Palm Beach. For all of the details refer to post 199 in this thread. There is a URL that lists activities, along with a phone number and name that is directly tied to the Rabbi, and the Synagogue. I am not painting a broad brush here due to the Religious beliefs, or the the entire Religion. Over the years so much has been speculated about this group, and I too have interested in this topic since I am an owner and it affects my wallet if the property I pay to maintain is repeated abused year after year!
> 
> With regards to the other owners and guests that have to endure the emotional distress of a lousy time while on vacation I would finally say ....
> 
> Share the information on
> 
> 1) Trip Advisor, The other Aruba forums,   Flyertalk , FB, twitter, or whatever social media you prefer.  Just stick to the facts, and emphasize that you have nothing against their personal beliefs. It is just the abusive behavior that is offensive.
> 
> When this group realizes that they are being noticed by the Social Media community they may begin to modify there actions while in Aruba.
> 
> 2) Write / Call / Complain to Marriott as well!
> 
> 3 Sue you may want to include the findings in post 199 in your sticky.



As evidenced by the annual behavior of this group, I don't think they give a dam what anyone else thinks. So, say what you want on social media, but I'm afraid that they really don't give a dam. And I think that Marriott is so frightened of this group, and the Anti Defamation League, that Marriott does not have the guts to pull the reigns in and stop these people from destroying other people's vacations and the resort. The one thing that social media would do, is put some pressure on Marriott and the HOA, but I really do believe that Marriott is of the mindset that like Spring Break in Cancun, or like herpes, this group is going to appear and disappear annually, and the evil that they cause is simply the cost of doing business. I'd like to see J.W. Marriott, Jr. and his family, including children and great grand children take up residence at Ocean Club or Surf Club during the Week from Hell, and I'd like to see what he does about it.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

One of my favorite consumer advocacy moves of all times was when the passenger stranded on a Northwest Airlines aircraft in a snowstorm at MSP, called the CEO of Northwest Airlines at his home to tell him that he was being held hostage on one of his jets. Similarly, I'd be checking public records for the home addresses and phone numbers (in the Orlando area) of Steve Weisz, R. Lee Cunningham, Clifford Delorey, Marylynn Clark, and Brian Miller, and I'd contact them at their homes to ask for their assistance controlling the chaos at the Aruba resorts for which they have responsibility. Maybe this will change their "cost of doing business" attitudes about the Week from Hell in Aruba.


----------



## billymach4

EducatedConsumer said:


> One of my favorite consumer advocacy moves of all times was when the passenger stranded on a Northwest Airlines aircraft in a snowstorm called the CEO of Northwest Airlines at his home to tell him that he was being held hostage on one of his jets. Similarly, I'd be checking public records for the home addresses and phone numbers (in the Orlando area) of Steve Weisz, Lee Cunningham, Marylynn Clark, and Brian Miller, and I'd contact them at their homes to ask for their assistance controlling the chaos at the Aruba resorts for which they have responsibility. Maybe this will change their "cost of doing business" attitudes about the Week from Hell in Aruba.



Oh absolutely. All you need to do is perform a quick search. You would be surprised at what you will find in the public records.

Not sure if any of the above individuals you mention above are on the HOA board. But a few calls to the back office will easily get you the phone numbers to the HOA board members.


----------



## HatTrick

EducatedConsumer said:


> the Anti Deformation League



They promote good prenatal care, do they?


----------



## Ridewithme38

Here's another way to think about it.  What ever is damaged or broken by this group is replaced by a bond they put up front.  This means that some of the items that would have hit 'end of life' and need to be replaced by your maintenance fees are now being replaced by their bond.

Their bad behavior is actually helping you keep MF's low and/or avoid a special assessment.


----------



## sea&ski

*Repairs*

I have been pondering an aspect of this thread for the last few days.  I did find out early on, via an external website, that the group responsible for ruining peoples' vacations was also required to put up a bond.  That's good, but also really sad that it must be this way.  In no way can this bond replace a good vacation gone bad.

What I can't figure is how all the repairs are accomplished in the short turnover between occupants?  The money may be there, but are the resources?  I sure wouldn't book at the resort in the month following this abhorrent behavior.

Once we visited Mazatlan the week after easter festivities and endured trashed hotel lobbies, inoperative pools/spas and broken glass everywhere.  I am sure it was weeks before everything was back to order.


----------



## WFP

We have read several times that this group has put up a Bond to cover the damage they may cause.  To us, that is irrelevant.  If we are  in Aruba that week, and Excessive damage is done to something we wish to use, is that "Fair" to us?  No.  While damage can happen at any other time of year, and does, knowing that this group coming in has to have a Bond to cover the damage they casue does not mean all is OK.  

As the saying goes, an ouncee of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  In this case, it appears Marriott and this group are choosing the cure in the form a a Bond rather than preventing the damage in the first place with more responsible behavior.

/WFP


----------



## EducatedConsumer

HatTrick said:


> They promote good prenatal care, do they?



Not from what I've seen.


----------



## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> Here's another way to think about it.  What ever is damaged or broken by this group is replaced by a bond they put up front.  This means that some of the items that would have hit 'end of life' and need to be replaced by your maintenance fees are now being replaced by their bond.
> 
> Their bad behavior is actually helping you keep MF's low and/or avoid a special assessment.



It didn't help the Aruba Ocean Club owners a few years ago.


----------



## m61376

sea&ski said:


> I have been pondering an aspect of this thread for the last few days.  I did find out early on, via an external website, that the group responsible for ruining peoples' vacations was also required to put up a bond.  That's good, but also really sad that it must be this way.  In no way can this bond replace a good vacation gone bad.
> 
> What I can't figure is how all the repairs are accomplished in the short turnover between occupants?  The money may be there, but are the resources?  I sure wouldn't book at the resort in the month following this abhorrent behavior.
> 
> Once we visited Mazatlan the week after easter festivities and endured trashed hotel lobbies, inoperative pools/spas and broken glass everywhere.  I am sure it was weeks before everything was back to order.



I don't know, but somehow they do. I've oftentimes been there a week or two after, and while the beach personnel are still reeling from the extra work, everything is in working order. The only thing I've noticed is that they're more appreciative of what I consider routine consideration- thinks like "thank you," etc. If you bring up the subject they'll tell you the prior week was difficult, busy, or hectic, or words to that effect.


----------



## ilene13

SueDonJ said:


> It didn't help the Aruba Ocean Club owners a few years ago.



We did not have a special assessment because of this group.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

ilene13 said:


> We did not have a special assessment because of this group.




But you did have a special assessment. The group causing an assessment wasn't the discussion. That is why they are required to have a bond. It was speculated that repairs from the bond would pay for things that would need replacing anyway and decrease the chance of a special assessment. I wonder how much has really been paid from the bond though. I would bet not very much.


----------



## SueDonJ

ilene13 said:


> We did not have a special assessment because of this group.



Of course not.  But I was responding to the comment that this group's bond would prevent Special Assessments - that obviously didn't happen at the Ocean Club.


----------



## Ridewithme38

SueDonJ said:


> Of course not.  But I was responding to the comment that this group's bond would prevent Special Assessments - that obviously didn't happen at the Ocean Club.



It may very well have been a contributing factor in reducing the special assessment.  Obviously needed repairs like AC systems, Roofs, Boilers wouldn't be covered under the bond, but, having that bond could have helped with other items, TV's, Carpets, Couches.

My car is a 2001, it's not in the best shape right now, very soon i'm going to have to do some major repairs on it....If some idiot steals it(I don't lock the car doors, please steal it!) and it is recovered with burned out tires, that's one less repair i will have to do, it'll still need Brakes, Tune up, Wiper blades, etc., But i'll save money on the tires.


----------



## Wally3433

Until someone posts a video or photos I still think this is all a hoax.

I got into an argument over a parking space yesterday - there were three people video taping me and two others taking pictures of my license plate - one with a professional camera - and it was like 10 degrees outside.

This board and the Aruba-bb board scream bloody murder every year about Hell week, yet not a video exists.  Not even a random picture.  Just a bunch of embellished third hand BS.

I should just quit being frustrated and go down there next year and find out for myself.


----------



## csxjohn

Wally3433 said:


> Until someone posts a video or photos I still think this is all a hoax.
> 
> I got into an argument over a parking space yesterday - there were three people video taping me and two others taking pictures of my license plate - one with a professional camera - and it was like 10 degrees outside.
> 
> This board and the Aruba-bb board scream bloody murder every year about Hell week, yet not a video exists.  Not even a random picture.  Just a bunch of embellished third hand BS.
> 
> I should just quit being frustrated and go down there next year and find out for myself.



I've never seen the North Pole or a video or photo of it but I'm pretty sure it's there none the less based on other people's  accounts.

If you're going to argue over a parking space to the extent that others are photographing your license, I nominate you to go down there and give us the straight dope.  

I don't think you'd let anyone bully you around so you'd be a good candidate to tape the proceedings.


----------



## Weimaraner

You're right Wally. It's just one elaborate grand scheme to ruin the reputation of the Surf Club and Ocean Club and the 4 weeks I've invested in with Marriott. Go the third week in January, get yourself a waterproof camera, and keep it rolling all day long in the pool mid-week and have some fun. Better yet, have your wife and small child do it for you. I can guarantee I won't be there and have made my reservations for other dates.


----------



## chris5

*Chutzpah*

From Wikipedia:

Leo Rosten in The Joys of Yiddish defines chutzpah as "gall, brazen nerve, effrontery, incredible 'guts,' presumption plus arrogance such as no other word and no other language can do justice to." In this sense, chutzpah expresses both strong disapproval and condemnation. In the same work, Rosten also defined the term as "that quality enshrined in a man who, having killed his mother and father, throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan." Chutzpah amounts to a total denial of personal responsibility, that renders others speechless and incredulous ... one cannot quite believe that another person totally lacks common human traits like remorse, regret, guilt, sympathy and insight. The implication is at least some degree of psychopathy in the subject, as well as the awestruck amazement of the observer at the display.

*The quality of Chutzpah in recent comments about bonds and property damage as reflected here*: 

*Gang/Group*: We posted a surety bond, with a third party insurer, to take care of all property damage we might inflict on Marriott and Marriott owners at Aruba.

*Marriott Rep*:  We really don't want the property damaged; the bond might be an incentive for you not to do any damage, since it covers just ordinary negligence inflicted by your group; the insurer normally carves out intentional wrongdoing or criminal acts and we don't want to get into a hassle with the insurer over coverage anyway. (Marriott Rep. thinking this is one pain-in-the-butt hassle.)

*Marriott Owner overhearing this conversation*: So, they have a surety bond for property damage -- that's just great!  They can damage the property with impunity; shift the burden to someone else for some small fee; meanwhile if the property is damaged, it's out of commission for a while and I can't enjoy it for the time I'm here, and who knows what impact this might have on assessments, especially if the insurer does not provide for new replacement value of the property.  I hope they don't damage that new pool table; it has a classic feel to it.

*Gang/Group*:  Well, I think under the circumstances we're doing everyone a favor here; our bond takes care of any property damage -- and it would prevent special assessments from occurring for replacing old, antiquated equipment that we damage! It could even lower future assessments too.(Gang thinking: if you can't adjust your behavior, money can solve this problem. Marriott should see it that way as they're in the business of making money and this is right up their alley)

*Marriott Rep*:  I don't think you're doing anyone a favor if we have to exercise payment under the bonds; we don't want the property damaged -- it's upsetting to the other owners and I have the hassle of getting it replaced or repaired. But the bond and payment obligations help. (Marriott thinking: I can tell the front office that I'm being tough on this group with the bond, but WTF is he talking about preventing special assessments or lowering assessments. We have a scheduled replacement reserve fund for equipment and property obsolescence. I don't understand this line of thinking. We all know that insurance coverage rarely covers full cost of new property or repairs.)

*Marriott Owner*: I can't believe the gall and audacity of this group to believe that throwing money to repair or replace property they damage, in some cases recklessly, is somehow doing us a favor. What chutzpah!


----------



## billymach4

Weimaraner said:


> You're right Wally. It's just one elaborate grand scheme to ruin the reputation of the Surf Club and Ocean Club and the 4 weeks I've invested in with Marriott. Go the third week in January, get yourself a waterproof camera, and keep it rolling all day long in the pool mid-week and have some fun. Better yet, have your wife and small child do it for you. I can guarantee I won't be there and have made my reservations for other dates.



I at least hope you will contact Marriott and the congregation.

If you don't take any personal actions then what is the point of this thread.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

I wouldn't be surprised if not one penny has ever been paid out of the bond. Obviously I am speculating but it sounds to me like the bond is there to appease the board. Never mind the pics and videos of urinating in the elevator and such, but does anyone have documentation on the damage reimbursements from the bond or is it just for show? Shouldn't something like that be reflected in the financials if transactions existed?


----------



## dioxide45

Saintsfanfl said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if not one penny has ever been paid out of the bond. Obviously I am speculating but it sounds to me like the bond is there to appease the board. Never mind the pics and videos of urinating in the elevator and such, but does anyone have documentation on the damage reimbursements from the bond or is it just for show? Shouldn't something like that be reflected in the financials if transactions existed?



Would it show on the financials as income, or just offset already existing expenses?


----------



## Weimaraner

billymach4 said:


> I at least hope you will contact Marriott and the congregation.
> 
> If you don't take any personal actions then what is the point of this thread.



I agree-it's the right thing to do. I will. But I did want to raise issue to help TUGgers be aware and to avoid making my mistake. I have been there in January before without issue and wasnt concerned about kids or investigating the dates. I don't mind a little horseplay on vacation or a lot of kids at play but it was worse than I anticipated. The reason I like TUG is I get such great advice from seasoned travel experts and I hope I helped a Tugger from making my mistake.


----------



## billymach4

Weimaraner said:


> I agree-it's the right thing to do. I will. But I did want to raise issue to help TUGgers be aware and to avoid making my mistake. I have been there in January before without issue and wasnt concerned about kids or investigating the dates. I don't mind a little horseplay on vacation or a lot of kids at play but it was worse than I anticipated. The reason I like TUG is I get such great advice from seasoned travel experts and I hope I helped a Tugger from making my mistake.



Good I am glad you plan to follow up. I can sympathize with your experience. After all these resorts are a "shared" experience, and we all deserve common courtesy and common sense behavior. I appreciate the fact that the mods have kept this topic open for adult discussion.


----------



## Ridewithme38

Saintsfanfl said:


> Never mind the pics and videos of urinating in the elevator and such, but does anyone have documentation on the damage reimbursements from the bond or is it just for show?



Are there pictures or videos of that? Do you we have any evidence that they ever HAVE created damage to the resorts? Or are we just assuming they have because of the bond? The bond may just be to cover the extra insurance to cover 'freelance' chefs and elevator operators....Bringing in someone to operate machinery and a kitchen who isn't on the marriott payroll could easily be an insurance issue, so a bond would make sense for that.  

So far the only first hand thing i've heard on here was just kid who didn't respect his elders and needed a good smack, but nothing about any actual damage.



Weimaraner said:


> I have been there in January before without issue and wasnt concerned about kids or investigating the dates.





Weimaraner said:


> I don't mind a little horseplay on vacation or a lot of kids at play but it was worse than I anticipate



These statements conflict.  Was there incidences when you went or not?


----------



## Weimaraner

I've been there in January without any problems in the past. Owner for 9 years but haven't been there in awhile. Had heard of the group and Regents. Didn't think much of investigating the dates before we went this Jan since I like kids and didn't think a little horseplay would be an issue. But it was way worse than "horseplay" since the kids are without supervision and out of control.


----------



## davidvel

Ridewithme38 said:


> Are there pictures or videos of that? Do you we have any evidence that they ever HAVE created damage to the resorts? Or are we just assuming they have because of the bond? The bond may just be to cover the extra insurance to cover 'freelance' chefs and elevator operators....Bringing in someone to operate machinery and a kitchen who isn't on the marriott payroll could easily be an insurance issue, so a bond would make sense for that.
> 
> So far the only first hand thing i've heard on here was just kid who didn't respect his elders and needed a good smack, but nothing about any actual damage.
> 
> These statements conflict.  Was there incidences when you went or not?


I've seen no evidence of any bond. Just rumors.


----------



## Ridewithme38

I forgot you were the OP.



Weimaraner said:


> Not everyone is bad and I've met parents of other small children who are friendly and provide the same level of supervision for their 6 year olds as I do. I'm talking about the others.



Don't forget, not everyone parents the same way, my daughter was 7yrs old when we went to Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  I'm not a helicopter parent, I don't follow her around the whole trip, most of the time, when we were at the pool, i was relaxing in a chair while she was in the pool, lazy river and splash park 'unsupervised', making friends. She's 8yrs old now and we are going to Massanutten next month, odds are pretty good she'll be out skiing or snowboarding without me standing over her also. Now that doesn't mean i'm a horrible parent, i always made sure she knew 100% of the time where *I* was, but I don't think kids can be kids if their parents are always standing over their shoulders.  We didn't grow up like that and we did just fine.  Why would you treat a kid like a prison inmate that has to be followed around everywhere they go?



Weimaraner said:


> Today was last straw when a teen threw a kid in the hot tub. He saw me and said "what is she going to call the police?" And soon after security showed up and I pulled him aside to talk to him when the teenager started to verbally assault me for telling on him.



I don't know you, but i know what i would have done.  That kid would have been grabbed up by his arm and either brought to his parents or to the front desk where I would have them 'call' for his parents and his parents would get an earful from me.  There is no way some kid should get away with that. Have you seen that child since with adults around him?  I'd bring this to their attention immediately! Speaking to you disrespectfully like that was completely unacceptable and i understand you being upset about it.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

Ridewithme38 said:


> I forgot you were the OP
> 
> I don't know you, but i know what i would have done.  That kid would have been grabbed up by his arm and either brought to his parents or to the front desk where I would have them 'call' for his parents and his parents would get an earful from me.  There is no way some kid should get away with that. Have you seen that child since with adults around him?  I'd bring this to their attention immediately! Speaking to you disrespectfully like that was completely unacceptable and i understand you being upset about it.



Spring Break in Cancun = allow the partygoers to do what they want, and look the other way. Marriott's Order of Operations for Hell Week in Aruba.


----------



## laurac260

Well, apparently I'm late to the party, but once again, I am thoroughly disgusted that this thread is here, for how many years in a row???  I have complained two years in a row that the thread is called "Hell week".  Last year the title was changed by the mods, but not this year apparently.  Yes, we all know it exists, yes, we all know that the folks who don't have enough sense to steer clear of the place it dubbed it Hell Week, yes we all know that there are 6 pages of threads, once again, from folks who have nothing better to do with their time than post about it.  And Yes, I'm sure posting about it HERE will change the world.  After all, it has worked so well before, huh?  

Whatever.  My problem is, that a group of grownups can't seem to avoid a thread that evokes hate.  Hate you ask?  Well, look at the title.  

I'd complain to the Mods AGAIN, but AGAIN I see they are here too, putting in their two cents.  So I'm going to post here to express my utter DISGUST again, that we have this thread going, again.  And, next, my thread will be deleted, and I will get one or two PM's from Mods telling me about proper "rules".  Whatever.  Ban me again, if you must.  I'm embarrassed for a group that allows this stuff to continue, every year, like watching a train wreck and doing nothing about it.  

Amazing.  One disparaging comment about a certain president who's name starts with an O can get an entire thread shut down, but 6 pages of thinly veiled "Jew Bashing" can go on and on for 6+ pages, every year.  

If you ask me, HELL WEEK has become the weeks that this boorish behavior is allowed to continue on this forum.


----------



## VivianLynne

laurac260 said:


> Well, apparently I'm late to the party, but once again, I am thoroughly disgusted that this thread is here, for how many years in a row???  ......



I will not quote the remainder of your post, Laura. 

What is your post about? That you think it is posters on TUG who are jerks or the moderators or both?

Sorry, but this post has NOT been about religion (as the mods have worked very hard to be sure it is a post about actions by others which interfere with a vacation others have booked at a well respected resort chain).

Readers of TUG change every year or two or three. Yes, there are "core" people who might remember ALL the prior years, but MOST guests and readers who find TUG are not that core group. I know I have NOT been reading TUG for exchanging into or buying a Marriott Vacation Club stay. I own at RCI resorts - not II.

As for the title using the "H, E, double LL" reference --- sorry, if you ever lived through such an experience, YOU might use that term yourself. I know, I have used that word to describe my 9 month stay at a state college - totally out of control place of robberies, attacks, hate crimes, sexual assaults -- so bad, the state CLOSED DOWN THAT COLLEGE within 20 years. Erasing its existence from all references to the well thought of university it was partnered with.

And if you are defending a major corporation who PROFITS from NOT enforcing a standard of reasonable personal behavior to ensure a vacation stay worthy of it "CORPORATE BRAND" --- I would ask, WHY (are you defending them)? 

So, this thread is NOT to your personal likely? Disregard it then. 

And to slam the moderators - who have been very involved to keep a calm and non-hateful stance on the posters - I think you are in error.

Respectfully,


----------



## windje2000

laurac260 said:


> Well, apparently I'm late to the party, but once again, I am thoroughly disgusted that this thread is here, for how many years in a row???  I have complained two years in a row that the thread is called "Hell week".  Last year the title was changed by the mods, but not this year apparently.  Yes, we all know it exists, yes, we all know that the folks who don't have enough sense to steer clear of the place it dubbed it Hell Week, yes we all know that there are 6 pages of threads, once again, from folks who have nothing better to do with their time than post about it.  And Yes, I'm sure posting about it HERE will change the world.  After all, it has worked so well before, huh?
> 
> Whatever.  My problem is, that a group of grownups can't seem to avoid a thread that evokes hate.  Hate you ask?  Well, look at the title.
> 
> I'd complain to the Mods AGAIN, but AGAIN I see they are here too, putting in their two cents.  So I'm going to post here to express my utter DISGUST again, that we have this thread going, again.  And, next, my thread will be deleted, and I will get one or two PM's from Mods telling me about proper "rules".  Whatever.  Ban me again, if you must.  I'm embarrassed for a group that allows this stuff to continue, every year, like watching a train wreck and doing nothing about it.
> 
> Amazing.  One disparaging comment about a certain president who's name starts with an O can get an entire thread shut down, but 6 pages of thinly veiled "Jew Bashing" can go on and on for 6+ pages, every year.
> 
> If you ask me, HELL WEEK has become the weeks that this boorish behavior is allowed to continue on this forum.



The only train wreck here is that Marriott allows the boorish behaviors of this group to affect the quiet enjoyment of the resort by its owners and guests, which most certainly affects the unsuspecting visitor.  

If your view is that those knowledgeable about this problem at this resort should steer clear of it and shut up, I suggest you take your own advice  - - -  steer clear of this thread and shut up.


----------



## laurac260

Viv,

Respectfully, "hell week" refers to a "specific" group, traveling at a specific time, to this specific location.

A quick google search will show this.

History on this board shows that THIS thread title brings out the worst in some people.  Yes, the mods have deleted THOSE posts.  But, there is atleast 4 years of "history" already on this board.  A quick search will show this.  So why do we allow the hate to continue, year after year?  Enough already.


----------



## suzannesimon

I agree with the Poster (quite a few posts ago) that said the best way to deal with the problem is with Tripadvisor.  If you are actually there during the week(s) in question, put a detailed post on Tripadvisor.  That is more likely to get Marriott's attention and possibly the attention of the offending group as well.  I don't know if any of the problem guests are members of TUG or not, but a more public forum might get everyone's attention.


----------



## SueDonJ

laurac260 said:


> Viv,
> 
> Respectfully, "hell week" refers to a "specific" group, traveling at a specific time, to this specific location.
> 
> A quick google search will show this.
> 
> History on this board shows that THIS thread title brings out the worst in some people.  Yes, the mods have deleted THOSE posts.  But, there is atleast 4 years of "history" already on this board.  A quick search will show this.  So why do we allow the hate to continue, year after year?  Enough already.



Why we allow these reports is simple - because this specific problem at the Aruba Marriotts continues, year after year.  I'm glad TUG is a place where folks can learn about it, glad that we mods make the effort to be sure it is adult behavior being exhibited in the threads, and glad that TUG Admin is in agreement that the topic is important enough that we should be able to discuss it respectfully.

"History on the topic" is hopefully what will eventually force some changes at the Marriott resorts in Aruba, and every year that the situation continues adds to that history.

A note - "Hell Week" is a term that was adopted from other websites when the topic was first addressed on TUG years ago.  We tried last year to stop it but all that did was make more work for the mods - it didn't change the fact that the term is immediately recognized and not just on TUG.  Just like allowing the use of the group's name, it simply doesn't appear to matter whether we use the term "Hell Week" or not.


----------



## laurac260

Look, I agree that I would be pissed if my vacation was ruined like that.  And I would be even more pissed if a "particular group of people" ANY PARTICULAR group, felt they had a sense of entitlement to a particular week.  (I'm not implying this is the case).

The problem here is two fold.  #1, someone, at some point in time, dubbed THIS week, with THIS group as hell week, and #2, that this forum allows the thread to be created anew, every year.  Search history on here.  Look at how many comments have to be deleted. We have beat this dead horse, HERE ad nauseum, year after year.    Why???  

Enough already!

Just close the darn thread and stop letting folks open a thread that draws hateful speech toward a minority group already.  Or, should we start a thread about traveling to SF DURING GAY PRIDE WEEK???


----------



## SueDonJ

suzannesimon said:


> I agree with the Poster (quite a few posts ago) that said the best way to deal with the problem is with Tripadvisor.  If you are actually there during the week(s) in question, put a detailed post on Tripadvisor.  That is more likely to get Marriott's attention and possibly the attention of the offending group as well.  I don't know if any of the problem guests are members of TUG or not, but a more public forum might get everyone's attention.



It's been reported on TA and practically every other travel-related website for years.    That's why I am so disgusted by Marriott's inaction - because there is NO WAY that they're not aware of the negative reputation attached to this event.  The group's leaders as well - all they did when the topic exploded on different websites was inactivate their own website.

But I don't see, like you and others do, that it's useless to post about it on TUG unless the purpose is to force Marriott and the group leaders to do something to prevent this situation from negatively impacting other owners/guests.  Nope.  One good reason I've always wanted us to be able to post on TUG about it, is because posts here might prevent just one person from having his/her vacation ruined.  That's enough for me - that we spread the word.


----------



## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> I forgot you were the OP.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget, not everyone parents the same way, my daughter was 7yrs old when we went to Sheraton Broadway Plantation.  I'm not a helicopter parent, I don't follow her around the whole trip, most of the time, when we were at the pool, i was relaxing in a chair while she was in the pool, lazy river and splash park 'unsupervised', making friends. She's 8yrs old now and we are going to Massanutten next month, odds are pretty good she'll be out skiing or snowboarding without me standing over her also. Now that doesn't mean i'm a horrible parent, i always made sure she knew 100% of the time where *I* was, but I don't think kids can be kids if their parents are always standing over their shoulders.  We didn't grow up like that and we did just fine.  Why would you treat a kid like a prison inmate that has to be followed around everywhere they go?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know you, but i know what i would have done.  That kid would have been grabbed up by his arm and either brought to his parents or to the front desk where I would have them 'call' for his parents and his parents would get an earful from me.  There is no way some kid should get away with that. Have you seen that child since with adults around him?  I'd bring this to their attention immediately! Speaking to you disrespectfully like that was completely unacceptable and i understand you being upset about it.



Honestly, what good does this type of bluster do?!  You'd grab a kid by the arm and drag him around looking for his parents?!  If you did that to my kid I'd have you arrested, and I'm not an obnoxious helicopter parent who thinks my kids can do no wrong!

Cripes.  How you can think this would introduce helpful behavior into a bad situation is beyond me.


----------



## SueDonJ

laurac260 said:


> Look, I agree that I would be pissed if my vacation was ruined like that.  And I would be even more pissed if a "particular group of people" ANY PARTICULAR group, felt they had a sense of entitlement to a particular week.  (I'm not implying this is the case).
> 
> The problem here is two fold.  #1, someone, at some point in time, dubbed THIS week, with THIS group as hell week, and #2, that this forum allows the thread to be created anew, every year.  Search history on here.  Look at how many comments have to be deleted. We have beat this dead horse, HERE ad nauseum, year after year.    Why???
> 
> Enough already!
> 
> Just close the darn thread and stop letting folks open a thread that draws hateful speech toward a minority group already.  Or, should we start a thread about traveling to SF DURING GAY PRIDE WEEK???



Laura, the thread is staying open.  The only posts that will be edited/removed are those that are not helpful, including yours.

If you're not satisfied with this, take your concerns to TUGBrian in a PM - he's stated his position here already.


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## Ridewithme38

SueDonJ said:


> Honestly, what good does this type of bluster do?!  You'd grab a kid by the arm and drag him around looking for his parents?!  If you did that to my kid I'd have you arrested, and I'm not an obnoxious helicopter parent who thinks my kids can do no wrong!.



Absolutely, i wouldn't hesitate!!! I would grab the kid by the arm and if he fought with me, he'd be dragged around by his neck instead of just by the arm.  I'd expect ANYONE to do the same with my child(you touch my kid ANY other way then that and we will have issues)!  There are many reasons to do this, you shame the kid and bring his actions out in the open for everyone around.  You also are shaming his parents if they don't respond to it.  

You would have (tried) to have me arrested? Are you kidding? This is a major problem with modern parenting.  Sue(I don't think that post was by Don) what would YOUR parents have done if you acted that way? My parents weren't 'spankers' but if i was brought to them in this situation.....I wouldn't have done it again....Do you REALLY believe attempting to have an adult arrested is the BETTER response?  

What i don't get, what do you guys think security could have done?


----------



## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> Absolutely, i wouldn't hesitate!!! I would grab the kid by the arm and if he fought with me, he'd be dragged around by his neck instead of just by the arm.  I'd expect ANYONE to do the same with my child(you touch my kid ANY other way then that and we will have issues)!  There are many reasons to do this, you shame the kid and bring his actions out in the open for everyone around.  You also are shaming his parents if they don't respond to it.
> 
> You would have (tried) to have me arrested? Are you kidding? This is a major problem with modern parenting.  Sue(I don't think that post was by Don) what would YOUR parents have done if you acted that way? My parents weren't 'spankers' but if i was brought to them in this situation.....I wouldn't have done it again....Do you REALLY believe attempting to have an adult arrested is the BETTER response?



Not kidding.  If somebody wants to come along and tell me my kids are being holy terrors, no problem, I'll believe there's a reason for it and deal with my kids my way.  (And for the record, my kids had a nickname for me while they were growing up - "The General" - because I didn't let them get away with anything!)

But my choice was to deal with my kids without resorting to physical actions/punishments.  You can bet that if I didn't grab my own kids' arms, no one else would have gotten away with it either.


----------



## ilene13

Laura, I agree with you.  That being said instead of everyone always talking about one specific time and group we should look at it as an inherent problem with the management at the SC and OC.  As  I said in post 125 there was a group from the Tri-state area that were horrible on the beach.  Many owners complained to the management.  Nothing was done.  For the first time since we bought our villas 14 years ago, our afternoons were not peaceful and relaxing.   The response we got from the management was that they were owners too.  The people who have been discussed in this thread are also owners that is why Marriott still allows them to come.


    Many years ago when we were staying at the Hyatt (pre OC), a guest threw his drink on a waitress at the pool because it was not made correctly.  She did not make it.  The Hyatt management gave her paid time off until that guest went home.  The guest was told he and his family could not return to that Hyatt.  But remember he is not an owner.


     One note on Cancun.  We own timeshares there also, and I have spent spring break there the last 25 years.  Spring breakers are not allowed on our property unless they are with their parents and the management and security guards make sure there is no nonsense and inappropriate behaviors.


     Finally the special assessment that was paid by OC owners was because of structural issues, not caused by guests.  It was not for furniture etc.  Marriott did not do their due diligence when they purchased the partially built structure and it came back to bite us all.


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## bazzap

Having tracked the posts in this thread, and as someone who has not stayed at the Aruba resorts but would like to do so, I would offer a few comments:
I am pleased the thread is being kept open, as I believe it is both important for people planning to visit to be aware of the problems and also for pressure to continue to be put on Marriott Vacation Club to take effective action to stop all unruly and anti social behaviour that spoils the enjoyment for all those seeking to enjoy a "normal" relaxing vacation.
It is disappointing that the extreme views expressed by some (at both ends of the spectrum) risk damaging what should be a very important discussion.
I do thank the Moderators for trying very hard to keep this under some sort of control.


----------



## chris5

_[Partially deleted - don't want to encourage a banned topic in this already-difficult thread.]_



laurac260 said:


> … Just close the darn thread and stop letting folks open a thread that draws hateful speech toward a minority group already.  Or, should we start a thread about traveling to SF DURING GAY PRIDE WEEK???



Well, in case you don't realize it we already include Black Biker Week in Myrtle Beach as a place to avoid during Memorial Day weekend in the Event Sticky, along with some other weeks.  I guess Black Bikers aren't at OceanWatch exhibiting rude and offensive behavior or damaging property. I can assure you, as history as my witness, that if that occurred we'd have threads here about that too.  Same thing would likely occur if a LBGT group hi-jacked a resort and had their children running amok, exhibited bad behavior, or damaged property, or received special considerations from Marriott.

Enough already, you say.  I agree.  This thread had little legs left a few posts ago. I thought it was dying on its own accord until some folks, who appear to have a common religious bond with the patently offensive and rude timeshare owners at Marriott -- kept it alive. It's understandable that those who might have a common religious bond with this group might find it necessary to set the record straight about religious practices that might explain some of the behavior. 

But I think the overly defensive position that many in this thread have taken, including your own rants,  has increased the longevity of this thread which you wish to shut down.  I kept coming back to this thread because of posts like yours!  If you stop posting so will I. Stop posting.


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## topmom101

Laura, I am one of the earlier posters in this thread and have read every single post since page 1 and, honestly, I haven't read one single post from anyone that was "Jew" bashing. In fact, yours is the only one where that word appears (well, maybe 2).  Additionally, I have not seen any references of hatred aimed at the Jewish community at large, on the contrary, everyone here has gone above and beyond in making sure our comments and opinions applied specifically and singularly to this group of people responsible for ruining people's 
vacations. 

I have been a TUG member for roughly 1 year and this is NEWS to me. I own Time shares in Aruba and, in fact, stay at the Surf Club, although not in January, therefore this information was invaluable to me.

One thing I don't understand from you post and the few others that echo your sentiments, is why do you feel this group should be protected which is exactly what would be happening if we weren't allowed to openly discuss it?

Clearly, they are not a secret group..... they have a website where they advertise their yearly trip to the Surf Club. They don't care who they offend. They think they are above the law and that rules do not apply to them. That's plain wrong and should not be tolerated. Just because you don't want to talk about it doesn't mean it's not happening.

You know the phrase "you reap what you sow"? Laura, this group is giving _[themselves]_ a bad rep and THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE RIPPLE EFFECT it's causing. So, I'd say, talk about it... everywhere, expose them, and apply enough pressure so they will be banned from the Surf Club.


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## Ridewithme38

So far the offenses in this thread are playing catch in the the pool, jumping in the lazy river, horseplay around the hottubs, how dare children act that way!!  For shame!  Children should know not to have fun on vacation!  We should report all of this to Marriott immediately!

When looking at that, you don't think we are being a bit over critical of this group?  I mostly stay at kidcentric resorts during school breaks(Hershey, massanutten, SBP, smuggs, etc.)but, I don't think I've stayed at a resort where those things haven't happen.


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## topmom101

Ride, are we reading the same thread?????  I think it's a tiny bit more than that.


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## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> So far the offenses in this thread are playing catch in the the pool, jumping in the lazy river, horseplay around the hottubs, how dare children act that way!!  For shame!  Children should know not to have fun on vacation!  We should report all of this to Marriott immediately!
> 
> When looking at that, you don't think we are being a bit over critical of this group?  I mostly stay at kidcentric resorts(Hershey, massanutten, SBP, smuggs, etc.)but, I don't think I've stayed at a resort where those things haven't happen.



You seem to be conveniently glossing over TUGger jimf's eyewitness reports of false fire alarms, etc.  This thread, all these threads, paint a picture of much more than poor behavior by children.  I understand why it serves your purpose to severely minimize the overall problem to just the children's poor behavior, but that's not the entire picture.  I'm pretty sure that we have NEVER stayed at a resort which is as negatively affected by preventable entitlement issues, and like you we've seen children act like children everywhere.


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## WFP

We have not been to SC or OC so have no first hand knowledge.  However, this thread has provided valuable information should we plan to go.  In all likelihood, we would have just booked our vacation w/o researching the club for dates to avoid because we have an expectation that marriott sells a certain product with specific attributes.  for some specific things should we be there when this type pof thing happens:

IF, a group has found a way to reserve every chair/cabana/towel/pool by working within/near the rules then we really have no recourse, they are owners.  It would be up to Marriott to decide if we should be comped because of our inability to use the resource but I would not expect them to do that.

IF a group has children running all over the place unsupervised loudly screaming then we really have no recourse, they are owners.  We have to put up with the irritation.  We would NEVER drag a child to their parent for douing this.

If a public bathroom or facility is left a mess by this group, we will mention it to Marriott and they will clean up the issue but we will still have been impacted.  However, they are owners and there really is no recourse.

All of the above would truly make the vacation unpleasant but that does not mean the group is not within their own ownership / occupancy priveledges.

On the other hand,
If a member of the group verbally (i.e. Telling us to leave a facility) or physically (i.e. Splashing water or hitting with a football or frisbee etc.) abuses us in some way, then they have crossed a line and we would expect Marriott to do something about it.

If a member of a group moves our property from a beach/pool chair, again that would be unacceptable and we would expect Marriott to do something about it.

We do feel it is OUR responsibility to go to the groups organizer's to stop any of the above behavior.  We feel it is Marriott's responsibility and that is where we will go.

/WFP


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## Ridewithme38

I'm starting to think this is the problem.  I'm going to use an example to help clarify what i am starting to believe.  I'm also going to be careful with how i say it.

I have always avoided or used pepper sparingly in my dishes.  Because of this pepper has become 'strange' to my tastebuds, while a normal amount may seem fine to others, they may not even notice it, to me any little bit of pepper is under a microscope and jumps out immediately to me.  

I think that is what we are doing here, taking normal kid behavior and putting it under a microscope.  I'm not going to pass judgement on WHY we are doing this, but it is starting to appear to me, this IS what we are doing.


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## DeniseM

Remember that you are debating with Ride, who automatically takes the least popular position in any thread to stir folks up.  He doesn't really care - he just likes to play the Troll...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## m61376

A bit off topic perhaps- but I think Sue, Denise and any of the other moderators who have actively watched this thread and promptly removed any anti-Semitic comments or innuendoes deserve a big thank-you.

Just because Topmom101 and others have posted that there haven't seen any such comments doesn't mean there haven't been; I know I read at least one flip remark. While previous years I have oftentimes found this thread to be offensive, either the moderators are doing a better job this year and/or posters have become more enlightened.

The behaviors described have exceeded "kids being kids" norms and I find it shocking that Marriott has not done anything definitive about it. Whether or not it is true I don't know, but I was told by someone who supposedly knew the situation well that Marriott officials did try to intervene a few years back, meeting with the group's representatives prior to their vacation, and that for the past few years things were busy but not out of control (as related by multiple week owners who have been there year after year during the timeframe in question). 

If what I've heard in the past is true, and if things have deteriorated, it might be that memories are short and that, with enough pressure, Marriott will again intervene and meet with the parties in question.

As evidenced by even posters on this thread, we all have our own perceptions of proper parenting. While I never would allow my own children growing up to run around a resort without a watchful eye when they were little, evidently others feel it is alright. Unfortunately, human nature is such that when you have a group of unsupervised friends they tend to push the bar, so to speak, and their behavior is likely to be annoying at best to others, and at worst have disastrous consequences.

Perhaps an email with a link to this thread to the powers that be at Marriott might be of some benefit. It might be an eye-opener as to the negative publicity that this generates. I actually just checked, and only 4 of the arrival dates for January have been booked for Plat. season at the SC, at least for OS rooms which I can check on-line. I can say I haven't seen this type of availability weeks after reservations were open in the past; I have no idea if this is at all related to a decreased demand for January related to the issues discussed herein, but I do find it interesting.


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## TheTimeTraveler

Reading Post #60 on the "Marriott's Refinery New York City" thread and that particular post should leave no doubt that Marriott closely follows all these threads on the TUG Marriott Board.

With that said, I am confident that Marriott is very much aware of the Aruba situation and chooses to deal with it as they have been (i.e. not doing much).

Why they elect that route and not permanently solve this problem may be the real debatable issue…...





.


----------



## skyequeen

After reading posts for days, as an owner at Surf Club I've decided to add my comments.  First, at check in you get tags for your chairs.  If someone removed my tags, I would get Security.  Second, we line up for beach palapas.  You can't get more than one per person and the line starts early. Someone tried paying others to do it.  No one bit.  Third, when we were at SC last time, half way through was a school holiday.  All of a sudden adolescents and teenagers, not just small children were in the lazy river.  And they were jumping on and diving off each other and scaring me.  Also saw young children bullying others during play.  And, a young woman in a thong suit with naked buttocks I hated children seeing. No particular groups.  I have skeletal injuries and can't afford being knocked about.  I stayed away from rougher kids and occasionally got out of the pool.  I will avoid school breaks until such time I'm a grandmother. Then I'll have to cope.  I avoid NY Regents exam week thanks to TUG.  Fourth, I've found Marriott management very anxious to make amends for any problems we ever have.  But you have to give them good information to work with.


----------



## amanda14

While I would not return to Aruba (been 2x- just not a fan) I do find this thread incredibly helpful, inciteful and at times humorous. As an owner, I feel that this discussion and those like it are important for a milieu of reasons. I have no skin in this and could care less what group it is being referenced, but I like knowing that behaviors at an entity where I own (Marriott Owner) are being discussed good, bad or otherwise. It could make positive changes because of intelligent discussions, because we all want the same thing. Great vacations for our families in a safe and clean environment. Because of the education I have gained from this thread, I know to not to come to Aruba during January, should I choose to return there.

Thanks.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

The thong comment has me chuckling. While I do not disagree I have seen at least one thong with visibly naked cheeks every time I have been to Aquatica in Orlando and I have been there alot since I live here. The bare cheeks can be male or female but it is a common occurrence.


----------



## LDT

I have not posted for a few days because I was trying to find notes that I had written down three years ago.  Marriott was advertising the Encore package at the SC for a good price so the wife and I decided to check it out as we wanted to bring more people the following year.  After experiencing this group a few years before, I decided to ask the young lady helping us if she knew when they would be back so we could avoid them in the future.  She told us it would either be week three or four, which we all knew.  She then went in to what happens.  She had first hand knowledge of the following:

The vast majority of the group is from Boro Park in Brooklyn.

*The kids are told by the parents to be pest*.  Besides acting up at the pool and beach area they constantly run up and down the hallways at night knocking on peoples doors and running off.

There are days that they will not use the bathroom in their unit.  They use the public ones but don't flush.

When it is time to check out of their room they don't.  They won't answer the phone or the door.  So they are charged an extra days rent.  No big deal to them as when they get home they dispute it and show the CC company a copy of the plane ticket.  Charge is taken off every time.  And this leads to the people checking in not being able to get in their rooms until well after 4:00.

She did say one lady from the group was banned from the property the year before.  She slapped an employee.  

Numerous room charges are disputed and never paid.  (I would love to know how much is lost)

These are just the things that I wrote down when purchasing the Encore package.  This information came from a Marriott employee.


----------



## topmom101

So the question remains, why in the world would Marriott allow such blatant abuse?  The concensus here is because these people throw so much money around. But, do you really think that a corporation like Marriott needs their money so much so that they would risk tarnishing their reputation?


----------



## EducatedConsumer

LDT said:


> I have not posted for a few days because I was trying to find notes that I had written down three years ago.  Marriott was advertising the Encore package at the SC for a good price so the wife and I decided to check it out as we wanted to bring more people the following year.  After experiencing this group a few years before, I decided to ask the young lady helping us if she knew when they would be back so we could avoid them in the future.  She told us it would either be week three or four, which we all knew.  She then went in to what happens.  She had first hand knowledge of the following:
> 
> The vast majority of the group is from Boro Park in Brooklyn.
> 
> *The kids are told by the parents to be pest*.  Besides acting up at the pool and beach area they constantly run up and down the hallways at night knocking on peoples doors and running off.
> 
> There are days that they will not use the bathroom in their unit.  They use the public ones but don't flush.
> 
> When it is time to check out of their room they don't.  They won't answer the phone or the door.  So they are charged an extra days rent.  No big deal to them as when they get home they dispute it and show the CC company a copy of the plane ticket.  Charge is taken off every time.  And this leads to the people checking in not being able to get in their rooms until well after 4:00.
> 
> She did say one lady from the group was banned from the property the year before.  She slapped an employee.
> 
> Numerous room charges are disputed and never paid.  (I would love to know how much is lost)
> 
> These are just the things that I wrote down when purchasing the Encore package.  This information came from a Marriott employee.



Having witnessed this asylum, first hand, I can attest to the fact that what you were told is true and accurate.

The animals at the Bronx Zoo are on much better behavior than may members of the Hell Week in Aruba faction. 

I maintain that Marriott dismisses all of this as the cost of doing business, and is fearful of the Anti Defamation League.


----------



## laurac260

_[Deleted.]

Moderator Note:  Laura, as previously posted, please take your concerns directly to TUGBrian.  I don't believe that he, and we moderators, are allowing any of the type of behavior ("hate speech" or otherwise prejudicial) that you're repeatedly alleging, to stand._


----------



## laurac260

_[Post under review.]_


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## Saintsfanfl

_[Deleted - this is not helpful.]_


----------



## ilene13

topmom101 said:


> So the question remains, why in the world would Marriott allow such blatant abuse?  The concensus here is because these people throw so much money around. But, do you really think that a corporation like Marriott needs their money so much so that they would risk tarnishing their reputation?



When Corey Guest, ex GM of the OC, was asked about that he said it was because they are owners.


----------



## laurac260

_[Post under review.]_


----------



## Chrispee

Ridewithme38 said:


> Absolutely, i wouldn't hesitate!!! I would grab the kid by the arm and if he fought with me, he'd be dragged around by his neck instead of just by the arm.  I'd expect ANYONE to do the same with my child(you touch my kid ANY other way then that and we will have issues)!  There are many reasons to do this, you shame the kid and bring his actions out in the open for everyone around.  You also are shaming his parents if they don't respond to it.
> 
> You would have (tried) to have me arrested? Are you kidding? This is a major problem with modern parenting.  Sue(I don't think that post was by Don) what would YOUR parents have done if you acted that way? My parents weren't 'spankers' but if i was brought to them in this situation.....I wouldn't have done it again....Do you REALLY believe attempting to have an adult arrested is the BETTER response?



If it were brought to my attention that my child were disrespectful and behaving poorly, I would reprimand him and ensure that he would not continue the inappropriate behavior.  I would also be fine with it if you would verbally tell my child that he/she was doing something unacceptable, although everybody has a different idea of what's acceptable.

However, it shocks me that you would condone any physical contact with another person's child.  I have taught my child to resist and call for help if anybody grabs/touches him, and I would expect that he would do so in your hypothetical situation.

If I were to witness you doing what you suggest in your scenario to any child, and there were calling for help because a stranger was grabbing them, I would step in.  If you were to put your hand around any child's neck, I think you would have many bystanders at the pool who would step in.


----------



## pedro47

Hell week in Aruba sound like Bike Week in MB. Just kidding Bike Week is all about money and big money and dollars for the state.


----------



## benyu2010

The title indicates the behaviors of some owners or guests during specific timeframe at OC or SC dubbed 'HELL WEEK', not the group or person per se... It is not difficult to comprehend the whole thread with third language. Many participants in this thread are minority, particularly some of them are from same ethnicity. They may share same ethical or religious background, but apparently many dislike the discussed behaviors exhibited by any person anywhere.


----------



## Ridewithme38

Ahh, I'd make the intent Very clear!  "Where are your parents, we need to talk to them RIGHT NOW!"  as I grab the child's arm and bring them TOWARDS any crowd. If a child is going to demean me in public damn right there is going to be a scene and I hope everyone notices!  If people step in after seeing the child acting that way towards an adult I'd expect applause.  Grabbing by the back of the neck to better lead the child, your right, isn't ideal more a last resort, usually, you can get a good enough grip on an arm to lead someone.   I'm not talking about hiting the kid, just firmly walking them over to their parents. Why is there anything wrong with that

What would you do?  Stand with your mouth hanging open hoping someone else takes action?  What does that teach this kid?  It just reinforces the "what can he do" beliefs he has.


----------



## NboroGirl

I've read through every one of the almost 300 posts in this thread with interest.  Although I do not have a dog in this fight, I do not understand where laurac260 is coming from.  Are all the supposed hate posts being deleted?  The only ones I see that have been removed are laurac260's.


----------



## laurac260

NboroGirl said:


> I've read through every one of the almost 300 posts in this thread with interest.  Although I do not have a dog in this fight, I do not understand where laurac260 is coming from.  Are all the supposed hate posts being deleted?  The only ones I see that have been removed are laurac260's.



Everything has been deleted, including my comments that referring to a week where a large number of "religious, ethnic folks" congregate as "hell week", is in and of itself, hateful.  This thread happens annually, sadly.  

Google "hell week Aruba" and you will see that this term is used SPECIFICALLY about this particular ethnic, religious group" during this particular week in Aruba.


----------



## Beaglemom3

Ridewithme38 said:


> Ahh, I'd make the intent Very clear!  "Where are your parents, we need to talk to them RIGHT NOW!"  as I grab the child's arm and bring them TOWARDS any crowd. If a child is going to demean me in public damn right there is going to be a scene and I hope everyone notices!  If people step in after seeing the child acting that way towards an adult I'd expect applause.  Grabbing by the back of the neck to better lead the child, your right, isn't ideal more a last resort, usually, you can get a good enough grip on an arm to lead someone.   I'm not talking about hiting the kid, just firmly walking them over to their parents. Why is there anything wrong with that
> 
> What would you do?  Stand with your mouth hanging open hoping someone else takes action?  What does that teach this kid?  It just reinforces the "what can he do" beliefs he has.



    This is what's wrong: Ride, I am hoping that this is just a* fantasy *of "what I would do if......" as we've all had them. If not, please brush up on assault, battery, minor, detention, State Dept., laws of the Netherlands & Aruba, criminal & civil charges.  etc.  Not to mention other adults coming at you regardless of what you're vocalizing. The fantasy of "righting a wrong" should remain just that. 

Do not touch anyone, especially a child in that manner, ever, unless you are ready to suffer the consequences. Do not act on impulse as nothing will justify it. You're the adult and no matter how justified you think you are, you are not.


What you want to do and what you should do should never merge on this issue. 

Late edit: I'm not bailing you out either. :




-


----------



## Theousaf

I don't have a dog in this fight either as I own Divi properties.  I do however enjoy Moomba Beach, which is adjacent to the Marriott properties and I suspect impacted by this group.  I just joined TUG today and was not aware of this issue.  I don't care about the ethnicity of the group.  Suffice to know that this area is to be avoided during this time frame.


----------



## NboroGirl

laurac260 said:


> Everything has been deleted, including my comments that referring to a week where a large number of "religious, ethnic folks" congregate as "hell week", is in and of itself, hateful.  This thread happens annually, sadly.
> 
> Google "hell week Aruba" and you will see that this term is used SPECIFICALLY about this particular ethnic, religious group" during this particular week in Aruba.



I've seen many of the threads that were deleted, and I HAVE googled "Hell Week" when this thread first started.  You are wrong in saying that Hell Week is about a particular ethnic religious group.  Hell Week is about bad behaviors exhibited by a group of people who visit the Marriott resorts in Aruba about the same time every year.


----------



## Fasttr

laurac260 said:


> Everything has been deleted, including my comments that referring to a week where a large number of "religious, ethnic folks" congregate as "hell week", is in and of itself, hateful.  This thread happens annually, sadly.



This is meant to be insightful, not inciteful (if that is even a word), but my interpretation of the OP's use of the term Hell Week in the thread title is not intended as a poke at the alleged abusers religous beliefs, but instead is intended to discribe the atmosphere at the resort, from the perspective of the other guests (the OP in the case of this posting title), who were living through it.  

As an example, if I had a bad week at work, I could describe it as Hell Week, which in that use, at least for me, would have absolutely no religious significance.


----------



## Fern Modena

I have been trying to stay away from posting here, holding my nose, etc.  BUT, some things...

This "young lady who was helping you," how did she have first hand knowledge (your words, not mine) of so many areas of the hotel/timeshare's workings? What was her job?  How does she know the the kids were told by their parents to be pests? I'm sure you know how she knew this, since you bolded it.  Since I, personally cannot imagine that, I'd like to know how she knew this, and how you did.  Third hand information just isn't good enough for me.

I don't see how she would know if people who overstayed checkout time could successfully dispute the extra day charge and win by showing their airline ticket. In fact, I believe this to be either a myth or out and out lie. Just because they show a ticket for later the same day does not mean the hotel/timeshare was wrong in charging the extra day, and I am believe that the hotel/timeshare would not "let it slide." The airline ticket means nothing. The timeshare had to pay extra help or overtime to clean rooms for checkin if people were not out on time.

Fern



LDT said:


> I have not posted for a few days because I was trying to find notes that I had written down three years ago.  Marriott was advertising the Encore package at the SC for a good price so the wife and I decided to check it out as we wanted to bring more people the following year.  After experiencing this group a few years before, I decided to ask the young lady helping us if she knew when they would be back so we could avoid them in the future.  She told us it would either be week three or four, which we all knew.  She then went in to what happens.  She had first hand knowledge of the following:
> 
> The vast majority of the group is from Boro Park in Brooklyn.
> 
> *The kids are told by the parents to be pest*.  Besides acting up at the pool and beach area they constantly run up and down the hallways at night knocking on peoples doors and running off.
> 
> There are days that they will not use the bathroom in their unit.  They use the public ones but don't flush.
> 
> When it is time to check out of their room they don't.  They won't answer the phone or the door.  So they are charged an extra days rent.  No big deal to them as when they get home they dispute it and show the CC company a copy of the plane ticket.  Charge is taken off every time.  And this leads to the people checking in not being able to get in their rooms until well after 4:00.
> 
> She did say one lady from the group was banned from the property the year before.  She slapped an employee.
> 
> Numerous room charges are disputed and never paid.  (I would love to know how much is lost)
> 
> These are just the things that I wrote down when purchasing the Encore package.  This information came from a Marriott employee.


----------



## laurac260

Fasttr said:


> This is meant to be insightful, not inciteful (if that is even a word), but my interpretation of the OP's use of the term Hell Week in the thread title is not intended as a poke at the alleged abusers religous beliefs, but instead is intended to discribe the atmosphere at the resort, from the perspective of the other guests (the OP in the case of this posting title), who were living through it.
> 
> As an example, if I had a bad week at work, I could describe it as Hell Week, which in that use, at least for me, would have absolutely no religious significance.



No intention to hang the OP out to dry.  But the term "hell week" IS regents week, when the ny Jewish schools are off and they come down to Aruba for vacation. So yes, it is referring to this group, because every other non homeschooled kid is IN SCHOOL that week.   If the behavior is as folks say it is, that is sad.  It is also sad that we still call it hell week, knowing full well (as tug history shows) what this week is referring to.  Can't it just be called "regents week Aruba"?  Or Aruba week 3 (or 4 this yr). Or better yet, stop creating the thread year after year, so we can stop having posts about "them" and "those people". .  Enough already .


----------



## MommaBear

I would not go to Hell week in Aruba, Bike week in Daytona, college break weeks in Ft. Lauderdale, Cancun, Panama City, Christmas week at Disney or Times Square at New Years or even the Super Bowl.

All of these have large groups of people, some behaving badly, some drunk, and some having too many people crying. My prejudice is against loud, annoying people. Don't care where they are from or what religion they practice, what language they speak. 

If you know something bothers you and would diminish your enjoyment of a vacation, avoid it! I agree that Marriott could and should exercise more control, but that is their problem, not mine. They chose where their money comes from and they obviously do not want mine that week.


----------



## NboroGirl

MommaBear said:


> I would not go to Hell week in Aruba, Bike week in Daytona, college break weeks in Ft. Lauderdale, Cancun, Panama City, Christmas week at Disney or Times Square at New Years or even the Super Bowl.
> 
> All of these have large groups of people, some behaving badly, some drunk, and some having too many people crying. My prejudice is against loud, annoying people. Don't care where they are from or what religion they practice, what language they speak.
> 
> If you know something bothers you and would diminish your enjoyment of a vacation, avoid it! I agree that Marriott could and should exercise more control, but that is their problem, not mine. They chose where their money comes from and they obviously do not want mine that week.



Ditto


----------



## laurac260

mommabear said:


> i would not go to hell week in aruba, bike week in daytona, college break weeks in ft. Lauderdale, cancun, panama city, christmas week at disney or times square at new years or even the super bowl.
> 
> All of these have large groups of people, some behaving badly, some drunk, and some having too many people crying. My prejudice is against loud, annoying people. Don't care where they are from or what religion they practice, what language they speak.
> 
> If you know something bothers you and would diminish your enjoyment of a vacation, avoid it! I agree that marriott could and should exercise more control, but that is their problem, not mine. They chose where their money comes from and they obviously do not want mine that week.



+1. +1. +1


----------



## TUGBrian

perhaps I missed it, but is someone really offended at the term "hell week" as some actual religious connotation?

cmon folks...Im all about drawing lines in the sand and such, but that is about 5 stops past where the politically correct bus travels.

I would also like to see some video or proof of some of the accusations.

It certainly is under no dispute that this group of folks is most certainly up to what any reasonable person on vacation would consider a nuisance to anyone around them.

However some of the other claims read like anecdotes and exaggerations.


----------



## laurac260

TUGBrian said:


> perhaps I missed it, but is someone really offended at the term "hell week" as some actual religious connotation?
> 
> cmon folks...Im all about drawing lines in the sand and such, but that is about 5 stops past where the politically correct bus travels.



Brian.  I sent you a pm.  No, I don't recall anyone thinking hell week had a religious connotation.


----------



## Bob B

Laurac260, I'd like to suggest that you vacation during this week in Aruba and then you can give a first hand account and opinion of the actions of the people that are staying at the OP/SC during that week. You would then have some credibility and some skin in the game.


----------



## Chrispee

Ridewithme38 said:


> What would you do?  Stand with your mouth hanging open hoping someone else takes action?  What does that teach this kid?  It just reinforces the "what can he do" beliefs he has.



I would assertively tell the child to stop what he/she was doing and explain why.  If I judged the behavior to be bad enough, I would then go to tell the parent what I had observed and I would also tell the hotel staff immediately.

I think that putting your hands on someones child is unacceptable for any reason other than if they or someone around them faces imminent physical danger.


----------



## bazzap

Chrispee said:


> I would assertively tell the child to stop what he/she was doing and explain why.  If I judged the behavior to be bad enough, I would then go to tell the parent what I had observed and I would also tell the hotel staff immediately.
> 
> I think that putting your hands on someones child is unacceptable for any reason other than if they or someone around them faces imminent physical danger.


Just from a practical perspective, if I understand correctly from these posts about the incidents that take place, the parents will not necessarily be around so I am not sure how one would find the parent to go and tell about the bad behaviour and the only option in many cases would be to report it to MVC representatives.


----------



## Chrispee

bazzap said:


> Just from a practical perspective, if I understand correctly from these posts about the incidents that take place, the parents will not necessarily be around so I am not sure how one would find the parent to go and tell about the bad behaviour and the only option in many cases would be to report it to MVC representatives.



I agree, from a practical perspective the only effective course of action would likely be to report to an MVC Rep (and even then it probably would not solve the problem).  From a strictly practical perspective, I wouldn't put my hands on another person's child because it is against the law.


----------



## DeniseM

A gentle suggestion:  if you are responding to a specific post - use the "quote" button, and it will appear in your post, for continuity.


----------



## skyequeen

The hearsay comments by a staff member ring true.  We first learned of the problem week from another SC couple we met who were friendly with a board member.  The lists of offenses jive on some points.  If indeed owners are held captive in the lobby waiting for units to be freed due to occupants who don't vacate the premises, Marriott has a management issue.  They need better tools to manage it or just need to enforce.  For instance, if they successfully dispute the charges, add them to the maintenance fees.  If unpaid, they can't book the following year.  If the units are rentals, charge the owners.  I'm sure this requires reviewing what is legal to do. Citing the number of offenders, Marriott can stop making restaurants, etc. available for exclusive events.  Ownership does not entitle you to these other services being available.  Reading here I am becoming worried that the value of my ownership during Platinum season is being diminished.  But remember, the fewer people who want the week these folks do, the easier for them to get their reservations.  Marriott cannot let that continue while everyone else struggles to reserve.


----------



## amanda14

Fasttr said:


> This is meant to be insightful, not inciteful (if that is even a word), but my interpretation of the OP's use of the term Hell Week in the thread title is not intended as a poke at the alleged abusers religous beliefs, but instead is intended to discribe the atmosphere at the resort, from the perspective of the other guests (the OP in the case of this posting title), who were living through it.
> 
> As an example, if I had a bad week at work, I could describe it as Hell Week, which in that use, at least for me, would have absolutely no religious significance.



Guilty as charged, I spelled it incorrectly.  I of course meant insightful.  I could blame my phone but I would be fibbing


----------



## Wally3433

EducatedConsumer said:


> Having witnessed this asylum, first hand, I can attest to the fact that what you were told is true and accurate.
> 
> The animals at the Bronx Zoo are on much better behavior than may members of the Hell Week in Aruba faction.
> 
> I maintain that Marriott dismisses all of this as the cost of doing business, and is fearful of the Anti Defamation League.



I have never witnessed any asylum, but when I do, I will certainly take a picture of it.  I mean, I take pictures of food when it's served to me, certainly I can make room on my camera for some asylum pictures.

EC, certainly you took some pictures at the Bronx Zoo when you visited - why wouldn't you take pictures of something you have decided to give it's own title to:  "Hell Week in Aruba"?

EC - Did you really witness something?  Or did you just overhear a second hand, uncorroborated conversation in the Lazy River about child misbehavior?

We are at 11 pages now, and we still have no real evidence that something has actually happened in Aruba that's worthy of an 11 page discussion.

Still waiting for somebody to post a clickable link.....and when you do, please CAPITALIZE IT!

Oops....looks like we are now on page 13


----------



## indyhorizons

nborogirl said:


> i've read through every one of the almost 300 posts in this thread with interest.  Although i do not have a dog in this fight, i do not understand where laurac260 is coming from.  Are all the supposed hate posts being deleted?  The only ones i see that have been removed are laurac260's.



+1  +1  +1


----------



## m61376

Just wondering how we have so many pages here, yet on the Aruba-bb bulletin board, where usually this is discussed to death, there is on very short thread on the second page with 3 or 4 posts as to whether anything has been going on. 

I am not doubting the OP's first hand account of encountering some unruly, rude and unsupervised children, which we have all encountered at one place or another. I am not sure if the situation has been blown out of proportion based on historical anecdotal evidence. I do know that I was told two years ago that Marriott had seemingly largely rectified the situation by meeting/talking with the parties involved, and that last year the only issues related by several guests who had been there were related to it being a very busy week with a lot of kids, large families with full occupancy villas, etc. 

The OP's report was from last week, btw, and it is this week that is the NYS Regent's week which is typically the week at issue(as pointed out by Ilene in one of the early on posts)- which lends support to the disruptive experience reported by the OP perhaps being from just a miserable little bunch of twits.

I am surprised that with all the rhetoric, in this day and age of utube videos and cell phones, as pointed out we haven't seen anything tangible.


----------



## Sunbum

Wally3433 said:


> I have never witnessed any asylum, but when I do, I will certainly take a picture of it.  I mean, I take pictures of food when it's served to me, certainly I can make room on my camera for some asylum pictures.
> 
> EC, certainly you took some pictures at the Bronx Zoo when you visited - why wouldn't you take pictures of something you have decided to give it's own title to:  "Hell Week in Aruba"?
> 
> EC - Did you really witness something?  Or did you just overhear a second hand, uncorroborated conversation in the Lazy River about child misbehavior?
> 
> We are at 11 pages now, and we still have no real evidence that something has actually happened in Aruba that's worthy of an 11 page discussion.
> 
> Still waiting for somebody to post a clickable link.....and when you do, please CAPITALIZE IT!
> 
> Oops....looks like we are now on page 13



The Trip Advisor thread has 17 pages, 168 comments before it got closed. It is an awesome, day by day report of the happenings of Hell Week 2013.

http://www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowTopic-g147247-i144-k6062681-Hell_Week_0-Aruba.html


----------



## PamMo

ilene13 said:


> ... Many years ago when we were staying at the Hyatt (pre OC), a guest threw his drink on a waitress at the pool because it was not made correctly.  She did not make it.  The Hyatt management gave her paid time off until that guest went home.  The guest was told he and his family could not return to that Hyatt...



That is an example of good management. I would not want to vacation in, and certainly would not want to own, a resort that does not expect and maintain a certain level of civility among its guests.


----------



## Mr. Vker

Sunbum said:


> The Trip Advisor thread has 17 pages, 168 comments before it got closed. It is an awesome, day by day report of the happenings of Hell Week 2013.
> 
> http://www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowTopic-g147247-i144-k6062681-Hell_Week_0-Aruba.html



Holy crap. 60%+ of the replies are deleted. I would love to read those. They have been busier than Sue over there!


----------



## TUGBrian

I do find it very disheartening that so many folks seem to want this issue swept under the rug and not discussed at all.


----------



## Fern Modena

And *I* find it very disheartening that so many folks want to discuss this item over and over and over, and beat it like a dead horse.  What ever happened to "search?" 

I also find it disheartening that it must take so much of the moderators' time (I was once one) because some people must resort to characterizations and third party "he said, she said" descriptions of happenings.

So, TUGBrian, I guess it depends on which side of the fence you see things from, doesn't it? Your post is #329, hardlyy what I'd call "swept under the rug."

Fern



TUGBrian said:


> I do find it very disheartening that so many folks seem to want this issue swept under the rug and not discussed at all.


----------



## TUGBrian

not particularly.

I guess I would see your point if the same person created a new thread every year they visited just to complain.  (id certainly agree that would be a bit silly)

Should we delete everyone who posts a scammer complaint and only have one thread on that on the forums.  It is clearly a topic that many want to discuss, its clearly a topic many owners are/were still unaware of until reading this thread.

Sure there may be a few bigoted jerks we have to reign in (and believe me, they exist on both sides of the fence from the emails/messages ive gotten)....but given the points above, I see no reason not to have folks discuss it.

To many "old salts" its old news, and you may be tired of hearing/reading about it, but to many more in the timeshare world, its certainly eye opening and informative.


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## piper_chuck

Fern Modena said:


> And *I* find it very disheartening that so many folks want to discuss this item over and over and over, and beat it like a dead horse.  What ever happened to "search?"


Sorta hard to "search" for something one does not know about. This thread has brought awareness of this situation to a new group of users who had no idea it was happening. 

And as far as discussion goes, this is a discussion board. If you don't like the thread, nobody's forcing you to read it.


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## swaits

As someone who has no idea what Hell Week means, I have a few things to add here. 

This thread is incredibly useful to me. If even half of these things happened on my vacation I'd be furious. Knowing about it is extremely valuable. 

So, thanks to the forum owner and moderators for letting it persist,

Next, I had NO idea this had anything to do with a specific religion until Laura brought it up. Up to that point, from my POV, this was entirely about poorly behaving people. Only one person made it "hate speech" (which it clearly isn't), that was Laura. 

Lastly, I will chip in $100 toward sending Laura to Hell Week as a TUG reporter. Let's get the facts on this. Laura?

Cheers!


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## Fern Modena

I guess you didn't read the entire thread (or didn't understand what you were reading) if you didn't know that the people being complained about were members of a specific religious group. I even explained part of this (which someone else amplified to better explain things I hadn't mentioned) and somebody linked to the specific group.

Next, if you want to play nice, volunteer yourself, not someone else. And use your head. Third party reports are notably unreliable.  The (few) people in the thread who have been there during the week know what they saw, and them I believe.

Fern





swaits said:


> As someone who has no idea what Hell Week means, I have a few things to add here.
> 
> This thread is incredibly useful to me. If even half of these things happened on my vacation I'd be furious. Knowing about it is extremely valuable.
> 
> So, thanks to the forum owner and moderators for letting it persist,
> 
> Next, I had NO idea this had anything to do with a specific religion until Laura brought it up. Up to that point, from my POV, this was entirely about poorly behaving people. Only one person made it "hate speech" (which it clearly isn't), that was Laura.
> 
> Lastly, I will chip in $100 toward sending Laura to Hell Week as a TUG reporter. Let's get the facts on this. Laura?
> 
> Cheers!


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## davidvel

TUGBrian said:


> not particularly.
> To many "old salts" its old news, and you may be tired of hearing/reading about it, but to many more in the timeshare world, its certainly eye opening and informative.


I've been on TUG for almost 6 years, posted a few times on Marriott forums, but knew nothing about this until this year (never had an interest in Aruba). The thread is certainly fascinating, and although I would freely debate the complex social issues at play, I appreciate the job the mods do to not allow that. 

I do agree that it would be nice to have some more concrete "evidence" about the specifics (is there really a bond?), behaviors (photos/video), but obviously there is ample evidence of the disruptions and apparent cultural differences.


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## Sunbum

TUGBrian said:


> I do find it very disheartening that so many folks seem to want this issue swept under the rug and not discussed at all.



Thank you Brian. Keep up the good work This is way too important to just make it go away!


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## Mamianka

*Regents week*



laurac260 said:


> No intention to hang the OP out to dry.  But the term "hell week" IS regents week, when the ny Jewish schools are off and they come down to Aruba for vacation. So yes, it is referring to this group, because every other non homeschooled kid is IN SCHOOL that week.   If the behavior is as folks say it is, that is sad.  It is also sad that we still call it hell week, knowing full well (as tug history shows) what this week is referring to.  Can't it just be called "regents week Aruba"?  Or Aruba week 3 (or 4 this yr). Or better yet, stop creating the thread year after year, so we can stop having posts about "them" and "those people". .  Enough already .[/QUOTE
> 
> You are WRONG.  I am a career NYS teacher - as are other on this forum. During Regents Week, mid-year and final exams for half-year  HIGH SCHOOL courses are given. All elementary and middle school students are in normal school that week, for normal hours. SOME HS students will not be required to be at school every day, so parents *might* choose to vacation then - especially if they have ONLY HS -age children, who miraculously do not have ANY exams - which is rare; I asked my private flute students this week, at their lessons, what was going in on school, and they said that there are a LOT of tests, exams, extra sports practicesand even one-week *fun* classes - and the school is pretty full!.  However, as I have explained several times before, PRIVATE schools - religious, secular, charter schools - ANY kind - need only fulfill their amount of days an hours of instructional time - so can keep their school OPEN, or CLOSE them at their discretion, essentially.  The problem week this year actually was a full week BEFORE Regents week began; do not paint residents of NY state and their school-age children with your brush.  This entire discussion is NOT about anything religious, ethnic, or anything else - it is about a GROUP from the same school that chooses to vacation together, and their intolerable behavior.  This could be a sports academy, a performing arts school, a charter school, or ANY private school that determines its own calendar, and then runs a large group trip.  Our concern here is their horrendous behavior - period.  Those of us who have invested our money, time and planning in a nice family vacation need to KNOW when optimum travel times are - and when to think twice.  We think about rainy season, cold, hurricanes, snowstorms - and this is hardly different in our planning - except the previous are acts of God, or seasonal - and Hell Week is created by crude behavior, and the MARRIOTT corporation looks the other way - away from the chaos, and towards the bank.
> 
> I do not own at Aruba, and we have only a possible interest of going there - but despite the cold and snow here in NY state in January, I would now NOT EVER think of going in mid-January - and am VERY GRATEFUL that this was brought to my attention, and that there is  Sticky about other things I might wish to avoid.  We drive down to NYC often for concerts, etc. - but NOT THIS WEEK - I hear that there are a few extra people in town because there is *some kind of sports thing* going on???  Really??  Hmm - very good to know.  At least New York's Finest (and New Jersey's Finest, too) will ensure that insofar as is possible, everyone will behave themselves this week and weekend.  Unfortunately, they have no jurisdiction over a private resort community in Aruba.
> Mamianka


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## EKniager

Just booked Saturday 1/31/15 at Surf Club.  

I'll take pics and document behavior if "they're there" and we witness anything abnormal.

(Nothing but warm thoughts on this cold and snowy Carolina morning.)


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## joewillie12

EKniager said:


> Just booked Saturday 1/31/15 at Surf Club.
> 
> I'll take pics and document behavior if "they're there" and we witness anything abnormal.


 Don't forget to take the photos of the women wearing almost nothing in the pool someone mentioned previously. I think those will unlock the answers we are looking for.


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## chris5

Fern Modena said:


> I guess you didn't read the entire thread (or didn't understand what you were reading) if you didn't know that the people being complained about were members of a specific religious group. I even explained part of this (which someone else amplified to better explain things I hadn't mentioned) and somebody linked to the specific group.
> 
> Next, if you want to play nice, volunteer yourself, not someone else. And use your head. Third party reports are notably unreliable.  The (few) people in the thread who have been there during the week know what they saw, and them I believe.
> 
> Fern



I think a huge part of the problem with this discussion is the imprecision of the language used by people who post in this thread, period.  People who are being complained about are not from a specific religious group. The complaints do not evolve around the religion of that specific group.  The complaints go to the behavior of that specific group. This has been repeatedly stated over and over again in this thread.

The specific group is from a religious organization in Brooklyn New York.  But you treat this discussion as if its maligning Sephardi or the greater Jewish religious community. (And in discussing Sephardi it would be helpful to your own credibility if you didn't leave out the specific geographical area where this specific group has roots, Lebanon or Syria!)  If this were a discussion about a specific group running amok that was organized by a Black Baptist Church in Harlem, a Catholic Church with Irish American parishioners in Boston, or an Amish Church in Pennsylvania, I'm sure Protestants, Catholics or the Amish wouldn't be treating that discussion as an assault on their faith or culture! 

I understand completely that the discussion could be irritating and can be downright infuriating to those who share a common religious bond with the specific group, especially when the discussion includes elements of antisemitism or stereotyping.  But the moderators have skillfully removed even the mere suggestion or implication of anti-Semitic remarks or stereotypes. 

Regarding your comment about third party hearsay or reports. This is a discussion board, not a trial. Normally, we don't subject participants to strict proof of the veracity of their comments or observations.  We should all take comments and observations with a heavy grain of salt. Third party reports can be unreliable or reliable -- it depends.

This is a fascinating discussion for a number of reasons, including the attempts to chill discussion by playing the religion card.

BTW, if anyone wants to give me his or her timeshare stay at week 3 or 4 in January at AC or SC next year, I'll be happy to consider going and reporting back my findings in a TUG discussion thread.  Right now, I'm having difficulty convincing my wife to go with me to Aruba during Hell Week.  We were at OC in February 2009 and had a great time there, which is when we first heard of the stories of Hell Week from guests there. And like many others, this thread is the first time I've heard about it discussed on TUG.


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## Conan

chris5 said:


> This is a fascinating discussion for a number of reasons, including the attempts to chill discussion by playing the religion card.


Your post makes many good points, but the sentence above gives it an unfortunate spin.

TUG as I think we all know has a policy of excluding certain hot button topics, among them religion and politics. It's not fair to use loaded phrases like 'chill discussion' or 'religion card' to characterize that policy.


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## piper_chuck

chris5 said:


> If this were a discussion about a specific group running amok that was organized by ... an Amish Church in Pennsylvania...


No disrespect meant to chris or the Amish, but the thought of a group of Amish running amok is fascinating.   I'll leave it at that rather than speculating on how they might choose to let loose.


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## piper_chuck

Conan said:


> Your post makes many good points, but the sentence above gives it an unfortunate spin.
> 
> TUG as I think we all know has a policy of excluding certain hot button topics, among them religion and politics. It's not fair to use loaded phrases like 'chill discussion' or 'religion card' to characterize that policy.


I think the sentence you are commenting on is spot on. There have been many posts from members who were not part of the TUG leadership who have attempted to chill discussion by playing the race/religion card. The thread was created to report on behavior and some people have taken offense at mention of the group that organized this event.


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## EKniager

I've got to agree with Conan.  There are a number of buzz words or phrases that have ideological baggage, and whether we like it or not, they are code words that are polarizing, e.g., entitlement, political correctness, XXXX card, etc.

Instead of parrotting political-speak, we should all strive to present dialogue that is more specific and not button pushing.  For example, if we stick with the "what" and not the "why" we'd be better off.  There is no reason to say, "The kids are rude (the what) because of their entitlement (the why)." How would we know?  It implies something and taints the conversation.

Just one person's two cents.  Who knows, it might lessen the confrontation and argumentative nature of these threads.


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## chris5

Conan said:


> Your post makes many good points, but the sentence above gives it an unfortunate spin.
> 
> TUG as I think we all know has a policy of excluding certain hot button topics, among them religion and politics. *It's not fair to use loaded phrases like 'chill discussion' or 'religion card' to characterize that policy*.



I'm not criticizing or characterizing TUG policy. I'm making my own observation about what I think is occurring with some of the critics of the discussion here.  We get one recent late entry into this discussion who claims we're Jew Bashing! We get a few other folks who claim we shouldn't comment on such sensitive issues because we're not part of the religious community  to which this specific group belongs.

How else would you describe the attempts by critics of discussion who wish to cease discussion of this specific group by throwing up road blocks to airing concerns (first, it was let's shut down the thread, then it was let's not name the specific entity causing the problem, then it was let's say this is "just kids being kids," then it was let's not discuss it anymore because we can search prior threads that lay bare this problem, and now it's "we need strict proof" of the observations.)

I admit this was loaded language, and I struggled with using that last sentence.  But it is the way I see it here.


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## chris5

piper_chuck said:


> No disrespect meant to chris or the Amish, but the thought of a group of Amish running amok is fascinating.   I'll leave it at that rather than speculating on how they might choose to let loose.



I guess you've never seen Breaking Amish on TLC. Or heard of Rumspringa. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5455572.


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## Miss Marty

*It doesn`t matter if you are on vacation in Aruba or in Charleston*

_
You don't mess with Jim! _

Jim Cantore delivers weather, knee to young man in Charleston
while tracking Winter Storm Leon, live for the Weather Channel 
from the College of Charleston South Carolina campus. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvmmIHl8YzY


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## Beaglemom3

Miss Marty said:


> _
> You don't mess with Jim! _
> 
> Jim Cantore delivers weather, knee to young man in Charleston
> while tracking Winter Storm Leon, live for the Weather Channel
> from the College of Charleston South Carolina campus.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvmmIHl8YzY





:hysterical::hysterical:  _Cloudy with a chance of pain..............._


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## mbeach89

OMG, this is like trying to figure out a riddle...

Is it just a group of spoiled rich kids?


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## Ridewithme38

You have fun on vacation by laying still on a beach or by a pool. Kids have fun by running around playing catch and rough housing. Different strokes for different folks. 

This is just people wanting everyone around them to only act the way they want.


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## psguru

I've been in Aruba several times during Hell Week.  We never called it that while we were there but none of the stories on this board are exaggerations.  

Good luck taking a misbehaved kid to the parents because a. you probably won't find the parents, maybe a nanny or b. if you do find them, they won't give a crap.  

Two years ago, a group of them were playing football in the lazy river, splashing everyone, not giving a damn.  I got a hold of the football and threw it away.  They stopped.  

Years ago, my family and I were ordering lunch at the OC.  A kid walks up to the waitress, grabs her and tells her to take his order first since he's hungry.  To this kid, we weren't even there.  

The hallways don't quiet down til 3 or 4 in the morning.  Better to bother everyone but their parents.  

And I don't think i've ever seen any of them throw away a piece of garbage.

I think calling it hell week is actually being nice!  It could be called much worse.


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## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> You have fun on vacation by laying still on a beach or by a pool. Kids have fun by running around playing catch and rough housing. Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> This is just people wanting everyone around them to only act the way they want.



That's your opinion.  In mine, formed from reading various websites over a period of several years and taking into consideration the "reputation" of posters who have been eyewitnesses, it is much more than what you want to minimize it to.  Even if you take into account a degree of embellishment for anonymity and/or folks maybe posting when they're in an aggravated state, it's still so much more.


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## Ridewithme38

Sue, I agree some of the posters are people I respect.  BUT re-read what they wrote. Most is 3rd hand info at best. The info that is 1st hand is just kids being kids, or one example of a kid who's parents shouldn't have 'spared the rod'.  If kids playing catch and 'splashing around' is really the extent of it, it may just be an age issue.


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## LDT

joewillie12 said:


> Don't forget to take the photos of the women wearing almost nothing in the pool someone mentioned previously. I think those will unlock the answers we are looking for.



I will say one thing, there is plenty for the men folk to look at.  I have never seen so many nice looking young women dressed to the hilt just to walk to the beach or pool.  I asked why they wear dresses and high high heels and was told that the women try to outdo each other.  That part I did not mind!


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## SueDonJ

Ridewithme38 said:


> Sue, I agree some of the posters are people I respect.  BUT re-read what they wrote. Most is 3rd hand info at best. The info that is 1st hand is just kids being kids, or one example of a kid who's parents shouldn't have 'spared the rod'.  If kids playing catch and 'splashing around' is really the extent of it, it may just be an age issue.



Re-read what I wrote, Ride.  My opinion isn't based on only this one thread, or only on TUG reports, or only this year.  If you want a better understanding than you seem to be getting from this one thread, put in the effort to find the information that's out there.  But of course if all you want to do is validate the opinion you've formed, feel free to keep disagreeing with those of us who don't share it.


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## Beefnot

chris5 said:


> The specific group is from a religious organization in Brooklyn New York. But you treat this discussion as if its maligning Sephardi or the greater Jewish religious community.


 
I dunno, I thought the quote below at least toed the line. Perhaps it does not qualify because the aspersion was just refined to those in Brooklyn, I dunno.



psguru said:


> The best thing to do going forward is to check the website of any sephardic hebrew school in Brooklyn to find out when their winter break is. They usually do not have off for Christmas so mid to late January is when they have their break.
> 
> 
> I've been there many times with them. It's a horror show and gives us other Jews a bad name.


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## Saintsfanfl

Beefnot said:


> I dunno, I thought the quote below at least toed the line. Perhaps it does not qualify because the aspersion was just refined to those in Brooklyn, I dunno.



I agree with it toeing the line. I may be out of line but it seems to me that when you combine "any sephardic hebrew school in Brooklyn" with "gives us other Jews a bad name" it indicates that some non-Sephardic Jews might be prejudice against Sephardic Jews, or at least the ones in Brooklyn.


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## psguru

I'm prejudiced against any group that ruins my vacation.


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## Saintsfanfl

psguru said:


> I'm prejudiced against any group that ruins my vacation.



Well, should it be limited to only the ones actually ruining your vacation? That puts it on a specific individual or isolated group basis and not a general paint brush across a larger group. Setting aside the rest of the world, the ones in the Brooklyn "group" that never go to Aruba far outnumber the ones that make it and ruin vacations.


----------



## vacationhopeful

psguru said:


> I'm prejudiced against any group that ruins my vacation.



Esp if it is my relations or relatives --- I don't invite them along for 5 or 10 years.


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## Saintsfanfl

vacationhopeful said:


> Esp if it is my relations or relatives --- I don't invite them along for 5 or 10 years.



Isn't that the truth!


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## m61376

chris5 said:


> I understand completely that the discussion could be irritating and can be downright infuriating to those who share a common religious bond with the specific group, especially when the discussion includes elements of antisemitism or stereotyping.  But the moderators have skillfully removed even the mere suggestion or implication of anti-Semitic remarks or stereotypes.



I agree that the moderators have done a wonderful job this year, and that also- from what I've read at least on this thread- there was far less moderating required than in prior years. I know I, and I venture to guess several others here, have been sensitized by the way prior years' threads have devolved into snide, generalized comments about the people and not just the aberrant behavior of some of the guests that come down generally during week 3, but sometimes during week 4.

I know I open this thread with a bit of trepidation as to where it will be headed next. That said, I agree that IF the behavior again has escalated (and, as I said, I was told that it was much better over the past few years from people who were there and I overlapped a weekend two years ago without noticing anything out of the norm), then everything possible should be done to exert pressure on Marriott. I have no doubt from what I've heard that, at least a few years back, the behaviors were pretty obtrusive, but from what I was told over the past 2-3 years or so and what I experienced over an overlapping weekend, the problems had largely been dealt with and remediated. 

So I'm left to wonder if whether things have gotten bad during week 3 or 4 again, or if people are just over-reacting to annoyances that can be encountered on any vacation because of stories that have been blown out of proportion (like the old game of telephone...).


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## DeniseM

Ridewithme38 said:


> Sue, I agree some of the posters are people I respect.  BUT re-read what they wrote. Most is 3rd hand info at best. The info that is 1st hand is just kids being kids, or one example of a kid who's parents shouldn't have 'spared the rod'.  If kids playing catch and 'splashing around' is really the extent of it, it may just be an age issue.








SERIOUSLY, Folks?  Ride is already "riding" both sides of the thread.  On one hand he is going to "lay hands" on any kids who ever behave this way to him, and then in the next breath, he is defending them and making comments about "AGE ISSUE."  i.e. - "you people are just old and grouchy!"

He has BOTH sides arguing with him!

You are being played!


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## amanda14

DeniseM said:


> SERIOUSLY Folks - Ride is already "riding" both sides of the thread.  On one hand he is going to "lay hands" on any kids who ever behave this way to him, and then in the next breath, he is defending them and making comments about "AGE ISSUE."
> 
> He has BOTH sides arguing with him!
> 
> You are being played!



Like button please


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## Weimaraner

LDT said:


> I will say one thing, there is plenty for the men folk to look at.  I have never seen so many nice looking young women dressed to the hilt just to walk to the beach or pool.  I asked why they wear dresses and high high heels and was told that the women try to outdo each other.  That part I did not mind!



I'm a woman and have to agree with you about the dresses, heels, coverups etc. As a Project Runway fan, I was drooling over some of the New York Sex and the City clothes ( i know you were staring for other reasons. Haha). Even my 6-yearold was outdressed at the pool and I didn't see the usual Target swimsuit. My sister said, "oops forgot the heels at home."


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## heathpack

amanda14 said:


> Like button please



My favorite part of this is when Ride (who I believe is in a custody dispute with his ex) posted that he finds it reasonable for 3-4 year old children to swim unsupervised.  Wonder what the family court judge will make of that, should said ex be savvy enough to use his Internet postings in the proceedings?

Sometimes I just cannot look away.

H


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## DeniseM

Ride has a sizzling presence on the Internet   - a savvy attorney could make mince meat out of him.

He uses the same user name everywhere - a 5 year old could "find" him with an Etch-A-Sketch.


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## Ridewithme38

I used to be internet famous. (Please don't ask for autographs) I've burned out my 5 minutes of fame though.


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## joewillie12

LDT said:


> I will say one thing, there is plenty for the men folk to look at.  I have never seen so many nice looking young women dressed to the hilt just to walk to the beach or pool.  I asked why they wear dresses and high high heels and was told that the women try to outdo each other.  That part I did not mind!


Now that's what I'm talking about!. Nice to hear something pleasant. Toilet paper all over,special elevators, over flowing commodes,ignorance & rudeness, hijacked planes or re-routed planes,out of controlled children & adults and so on is bs. No excuse is not tolerable. Until Marriott decides to control the inmates that show up sometime in January this lunacy will continue to happen no matter what anyone complains about or video tapes. According to the prior threads this has been happening for sometime.  Rules & Regulations are set to keep people safe and protected. Time to enforce them Marriott. I'm sorry to hear that people's vacations are being ruined by these renagades. Thanks LDT. I'm looking forward to the scenery and my time at MSC.


----------

