# Senior MVCI sources have told me that ALL VC points are equal!



## seema (Mar 31, 2012)

Three senior MVCI sources have told me that the program (internally, administratively) changed sometime in the summer of 2010.

From then on, all Vacation Club Points have been considered equal. 

Until then, I guess the thinking (which I see on this bulletin board - as an example, see post #2 of this thread: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167911) has been that legacy week points and trust points go into 2 separate pools of points - the trust points could access the legacy week points, but the legacy week points could not access the trust points. 

Now, and this is a quote from one of the sources, 

"I can, however assure you that once points whether they be from the trust or exchange source are in the Destinations program they have equal power and access" 

I have an email from a second source as well, which more or less states that the same thing.


One of these 3 sources, in addition,  told me that now the 2 sets of points are co-mingled in a third pool of points - called the flex points pool (not to be confused with flex change of II) - so any type of reservation made by any type or combination of VC points comes from this source.

I was told that everyone (including all all sales representatives) at sales presentations, know about the features that all points (both legacy week and trust) are considered to be equal in value and in access.

However, I was also told that the concept of "flex" pool of mingled/combined legacy week points and trust points was an internal MCVI administrative matter - and that virtually no one at  MVCI resorts would not know of this concept. I was told that the legal department of MVCI would not allow the statement of the presence a flex pool to be sent out to a customer (ie me) in a documented (ie email) form; however, I was told that the concept of the two sets of points be equal (implying that they are really only one set of points, when used for various reservation) and co-mingled in a third common pool are implied in the contracts and disclosures. One of the sources went over the appropriate sections of the contract - but there was no way I could interpret the legal wording in the contract to be able to say the contract says that all points are equal by virtue of them being co-mingled in a third "flex" pool.

I am wondering how many people at Owner Services know about the equality of the 2 sets of points. I called earlier this week; I spoke to someone - he was not aware of this until he spoke to his supervisor. I have a friend who is an enrolled owner of a legacy week at three different MVCI resorts - he called his vacation advisor and that vacation advisor could not confirm the equality of the 2 sets of vacation club points.

I was at a resort last week - at a sale presentation - I was an legacy week owner at Ko Olina. I was enticed to buy some extra trust points - so I am now a premier owner - one of my conditions of enrolling my legacy week and buying the extra trust points (to become a premier member) was that my legacy week points and my trust points, for any and all usage, would be totally equal.


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## siberiavol (Mar 31, 2012)

Why then would I be told there was availability  and a minute later be told the property was only available to trust point  owners not legacy DC owners? 

That happened recently to me. That doesn't indicate they are treating the points the same in every case. Thoughts?


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## seema (Mar 31, 2012)

siberiavol said:


> Why then would I be told there was availability  and a minute later be told the property was only available to trust point  owners not legacy DC owners?
> 
> That happened recently to me. That doesn't indicate they are treating the points the same in every case. Thoughts?



As mentioned in my post, not all (perhaps not many) vacation advisors know of the equality of the points. I would suggest that you go to the supervisor at the vacation owners call centre in Utah - and you can quote my post - I was given permission to quote (on a non-attributed basis) my statements. If you still do not get satisfaction, I can go to my source, with the particulars of your case - and that person can speak to the vacation advisor and the supervisor whom you spoke to - I am sure it will be sorted out. As I have mentioned, three senior people told me about the concept of equality of points - 2 more junior people at the Owner Services call centre were not aware of this concept.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2012)

I won't believe it until someone is able to reserve a single night of Trust inventory using a combination of Trust and Legacy points.  Even better, reserve it at the 13-mos mark.

No offense, Seema, but there's nothing that makes your "senior MVCI sources" any more credible than others who are saying things that do not mesh with what you're hearing.  Until Marriott gets its act together and can answer all these lingering questions with a unified voice, and can show us examples of their words in action, then there's reason to doubt what any of them say.  Especially if they don't allow their names to be publicly released with their statements.


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## seema (Mar 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I won't believe it until someone is able to reserve a single night of Trust inventory using a combination of Trust and Legacy points.  Even better, reserve it at the 13-mos mark.
> 
> No offense, Seema, but there's nothing that makes your "senior MVCI sources" any more credible than others who are saying things that do not mesh with what you're hearing.  Until Marriott gets its act together and can answer all these lingering questions with a unified voice, and can show us examples of their words in action, then there's reason to doubt what any of them say.  Especially if they don't allow their names to be publicly released with their statements.



In terms of the 13 month issue, I was told that if a legacy week (single week owner) is booked that way, the 12 month timeline for advance booking still applies. If one wants to convert that legacy week into vacation club points, and if is a basic (ie non-premier) owner, than one can book 13 months in advance, but with a premium (I think it is 20%) on the points.

In terms of non-attribution versus attribution, if there are issues with the statement (ie if owners are still being told that trust points and legacy week points are not considered identical in terms of use), then I will have no trouble connecting such owners to my main source.

Remember, my sentence is a direct quote, from an email I got from my source. A second source sent me an almost identically worded email. How many people will be willing to even go that far - put their words in writing - that is in my opinion not all that usual -  of course, it would (I agree with you) have been preferable if I could name the person who sent me the email.

If there is a discrepancy in what MVCI is saying on this issue, especially in writing (eg email), I would be interested in seeing written words from MVCI stating that the 2 sets of points are not equal.


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## fluke (Mar 31, 2012)

I think the quote is true - in regards to the exchange company.  Clearly the trust inventory can only be accessed by the trust owners until that magical moment(not a well defined moment) when they are transferred to the exchange company.  Just as legacy inventory (individual weeks) cannot be accessed in the exchange company until they are deposited (points elected).

So all points are equal in the exchange company(inventory).  Several experiences have been posted on this board including my own @ Ko Olina Christmas/New Years 2012/2013 that confirm these differences.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2012)

seema said:


> In terms of the 13 month issue, I was told that if a legacy week (single week owner) is booked that way, the 12 month timeline for advance booking still applies. If one wants to convert that legacy week into vacation club points, and if is a basic (ie non-premier) owner, than one can book 13 months in advance, but with a premium (I think it is 20%) on the points. ...



Right.  Whatever status you have as a DC Member has no bearing on the rules for Weeks and vice-versa.  If you're booking Weeks then you follow the usual Reservation Windows for a single week (12-months mark) or for multi concurrent/consecutive weeks (13-months mark.)  If you've enrolled/converted Weeks or purchased DC Points and want to book a DC stay with those points, then your Reservation Window depends upon whether you are a DC Standard Member (up to 6,499 DC Points,) a DC Premier Member (6,500-12,000 DC Points) or a DC Premier Plus Member (13,000+ DC Points.)  And yes, the points premium for Standard Members to book in advance of their usual windows is 20%.

But I'm not questioning the Reservation Windows here.  I'm saying that there is one thing which will definitively prove or disprove what your rep is saying, and that is the ability to book a single night of direct Trust inventory using a combination of Trust and Legacy Points.  It doesn't matter if Mr. Marriott himself says that it _can_ be done - the proof is in whether or not a VOA can make it happen through the usual booking system.  As yet they've not been able.



seema said:


> In terms of non-attribution versus attribution, if there are issues with the statement (ie if owners are still being told that trust points and legacy week points are not considered identical in terms of use), then I will have no trouble connecting such owners to my main source.



But my point is that unless your "main source" and all other MVCI execs say the same thing, _which is not happening now and hasn't been happening since the DC inception_, then we can't rely on any of them for a definitive statement.  There are quite a few of us here on TUG who have contacted various Marriott reps ranging from call center VOA's all the way up to execs/VP's in several Marriott offices (sales, legal, customer advocacy, etc.)  None of us has any reason to believe that what we're being told should be taken as gospel, especially when the DC legal docs do not support what one of them is saying.  You said yourself in your first post that, "there was no way I could interpret the legal wording in the contract to be able to say the contract says that all points are equal by virtue of them being co-mingled in a third "flex" pool."  Most of us have learned when talking to Marriott reps that if we can't find supporting language in the docs, then most likely what's being said is probably not correct.

I think it's great that you have contacts and can contribute what they're saying to the discussions on TUG.  Like all the rest of the noise, though, it's not a good idea for any of us to rely on statements that aren't supported by docs.  Until an official statement is released with a Marriott exec's name on it, there just isn't any support to substantiate any of the various claims of "a point is a point is a point."


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2012)

fluke said:


> I think the quote is true - in regards to the exchange company.  Clearly the trust inventory can only be accessed by the trust owners until that magical moment(not a well defined moment) when they are transferred to the exchange company.  Just as legacy inventory (individual weeks) cannot be accessed in the exchange company until they are deposited (points elected).
> 
> So all points are equal in the exchange company(inventory).  Several experiences have been posted on this board including my own @ Ko Olina Christmas/New Years 2012/2013 that confirm these differences.



That's been my take all along.  Trust and Legacy Points are equal in that it doesn't cost more to use one or the other for a reservation, but the docs do not support a claim of them having equal direct access to Trust inventory.  It's a technical distinction that's made inconsequential when Trust inventory is moved to the DC Exchange Company.  Until Trust inventory is moved to the EC, though, it cannot be reserved using Legacy Points.

We all want this to be simpler!  But these "points are points" claims won't be proven until somebody is able to book through the regular reservation channels, a single night of Trust inventory using a combination of Trust and Legacy points.


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## seema (Mar 31, 2012)

fluke said:


> I think the quote is true - in regards to the exchange company.  Clearly the trust inventory can only be accessed by the trust owners until that magical moment(not a well defined moment) when they are transferred to the exchange company.  Just as legacy inventory (individual weeks) cannot be accessed in the exchange company until they are deposited (points elected).
> 
> So all points are equal in the exchange company(inventory).  Several experiences have been posted on this board including my own @ Ko Olina Christmas/New Years 2012/2013 that confirm these differences.



I think there is some confusion in my mind about terminology. 

I have used the terms: deeded weeks pool of vacation club points, trust inventory of vacation club points, a common pool of deeded week and trust points (known as the flex pool). I am not quite sure whether your terms regarding "trust inventory" apply to the term I used as the "trust" pool of points. I am not sure what you mean by "exchange company" - I am presuming it is equivalent to the "flex pool"? Of course, I presume you do not mean II as the "exchange company".


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2012)

seema said:


> ... Remember, my sentence is a direct quote, from an email I got from my source. A second source sent me an almost identically worded email. How many people will be willing to even go that far - put their words in writing - that is in my opinion not all that usual -  of course, it would (I agree with you) have been preferable if I could name the person who sent me the email.
> 
> If there is a discrepancy in what MVCI is saying on this issue, especially in writing (eg email), I would be interested in seeing written words from MVCI stating that the 2 sets of points are not equal.



(just noticed your edit)

Actually, many Marriott reps have put statements into e-mails - some of us have been asking these questions since the DC inception.  Seeing as there are discrepancies in all the e-mails, what makes one more believable than another?

I don't think it's necessary to see written words stating that Legacy and Trust points do not have equal access, not when that's the premise that's supported by the DC docs.  If Marriott has cooked up something that amends the info in those docs, those amendments are what I want to see in writing from an official named source.


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## seema (Mar 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Right.  Whatever status you have as a DC Member has no bearing on the rules for Weeks and vice-versa.  If you're booking Weeks then you follow the usual Reservation Windows for a single week (12-months mark) or for multi concurrent/consecutive weeks (13-months mark.)  If you've enrolled/converted Weeks or purchased DC Points and want to book a DC stay with those points, then your Reservation Window depends upon whether you are a DC Standard Member (up to 6,499 DC Points,) a DC Premier Member (6,500-12,000 DC Points) or a DC Premier Plus Member (13,000+ DC Points.)  And yes, the points premium for Standard Members to book in advance of their usual windows is 20%.
> 
> ."




I agree with you; I think that there is very little controversy in TUG or between MVCI owners and MVCI on the statements above.
The controversy remains, on the equality of trust vs legacy week points.


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## windje2000 (Mar 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> But these "points are points" claims won't be proven until somebody is able to book through the regular reservation channels, a single night of Trust inventory using a combination of Trust and Legacy points.



Not gonna happen.  The system is and always will be denominated in weeks.  That's what you own.  That's what the Trust owns.  

The Trust and Exchange Company both account for their inventory of occupancy by the day, since they have different prices for different days in different seasons.  Days are the lowest common denominator in the system.  Fractional days are not available. {The only place that happens is in 'hot sheet' lodgings.  They can do that because their rates are hourly.  }

If you could book a day with a combination of Trust and exchange co points, the trust and the exchange company inventories would each reflect a fraction of a day.  Won't happen.  

The $64,000 questions are:

1.  the priorities within the exchange co for legacy v. trust points, and 

2.  the timing of inventory transfers from Trust to Exchange when trust owners book exchange co inventory, and

3.  the quality of the inventory transferred from Trust to Exchange when trust owners book exchange inventory.


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## seema (Mar 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> (just noticed your edit)
> 
> Actually, many Marriott reps have put statements into e-mails - some of us have been asking these questions since the DC inception.  Seeing as there are discrepancies in all the e-mails, what makes one more believable than another?
> 
> I don't think it's necessary to see written words stating that Legacy and Trust points do not have equal access, not when that's the premise that's supported by the DC docs.  If Marriott has cooked up something that amends the info in those docs, those amendments are what I want to see in writing from an official named source.



Can you post an excerpt of the DC documents, stating that the Legacy and Trust points do not have equal access?


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2012)

seema said:


> Can you post an excerpt of the DC documents, stating that the Legacy and Trust points do not have equal access?



First, the technical distinction that I see is that _Legacy Points do not have equal direct access to Trust inventory until/unless it's moved to the DC Exchange Company by Marriott._  That isn't stated in so many words in any one place in the docs, but to me it appears to be the logical way to interpret the setup of the DC system.  Here's an older thread with an explanation of how I think this all works; better to link it than try to remember it all and type it here again.  (Another link I like to use during these discussions is this one, to TUGger dioxide's thread that details Marriott's Trust conveyances.)

Several times I've sent links of different TUG threads to my Marriott exec contacts and asked them to comment on what we're thinking - nothing "official" has come from those requests but their comments do lead me in certain directions.  You could always ask your contacts to review this thread and give you their take ...


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## dioxide45 (Mar 31, 2012)

The trust owns weeks, deeded weeks owners own weeks. Trust owners can't reserve what they don't own and deeded weeks owners can't reserve what we don't own. For example, if the trust owners five weeks at Grande Ocean, trust point owners can't reserve more than 5 weeks at Grande Ocean. In fact, it wouldn't even be able to break more than 5 weeks with single night reservations because it would lock out legacy owners from use.

Now when it comes to legacy owners and the DC exchange company, then the lines get blurred. If a trust owner makes a reservation that pulls from the exchange company, trust inventory is supposed to move from the trust bucket in to the exchange company. Of course the inventory must be there in the exchange company for this to happen. This inventory comes from us legacy owners that convert our weeks to DC points.

If a legacy owner wants to make a DC points reservation, they look to see if the inventory is in the exchange company, if it is then the owner gets the confirmation. If it isn't then there could be several options.


They look to II to see if they can make an exchange between the DC exchange company and II to get the owner the points based reservation they want.
They could also look to the trust to see if they could make an exchange for the desired inventory.
It is also possible that the exchange company isn't exchanging physical inventory at all and just exchanging points between the trust and the exchange company. This would be the ideal situation and was assumed early how it would work, but we don't really know if that is how it is working. Ideally if a trust owner pulls from the DC exchange company the exchange company would have use of X,XXX number of points. When a legacy owner comes along and wants a reservation and the inventory isn't in the exchange company, it should be able to use that pool of trust points that are sitting there to make a reservation from the trust. This goes back to the old analogy based on marbles and cookies from the early days after DC launch.

If this is how it is working, then it would be safe to say that all points have equal access, almost. Those trust points would have to be sitting in the DC exchange company, if not, the legacy owner would have to wait-list until some of those points were deposited.


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## wvacations (Mar 31, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> The trust owns weeks, deeded weeks owners own weeks. Trust owners can't reserve what they don't own and deeded weeks owners can't reserve what we don't own. For example, if the trust owners five weeks at Grande Ocean, trust point owners can't reserve more than 5 weeks at Grande Ocean. In fact, it wouldn't even be able to break more than 5 weeks with single night reservations because it would lock out legacy owners from use.
> 
> Now when it comes to legacy owners and the DC exchange company, then the lines get blurred. If a trust owner makes a reservation that pulls from the exchange company, trust inventory is supposed to move from the trust bucket in to the exchange company. Of course the inventory must be there in the exchange company for this to happen. This inventory comes from us legacy owners that convert our weeks to DC points.
> 
> ...




Very nice play by play of how the inventory can be moved. I agree 100% with you and this falls right inline with the legal documents.


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## Werner Weiss (Mar 31, 2012)

Unfortunately, there's a lot of misunderstanding (by Marriott Vacation Club  owners, sales people, and other employees) about how the pools of inventory work. There has to be deeded Trust inventory (new ownership model) and deeded weeks inventory (old ownership model) — and the DC exchange pool to bring the two together.

Here's a thread from December 2011 with a thorough discussion of the distinctions:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160001

The Marriott Destinations Club program should look as seamless as possible on the outside, regardless of the type of ownership, while being legal on the inside.


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## FractionalTraveler (Mar 31, 2012)

Here is a reservation for 1 night at 13 months out.  I can choose usage between trust or legacy enrolled points as shown below:

https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...s_5Ptbg_P-4vjQA/Points Reservation.png?psid=1


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## m61376 (Mar 31, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Here is a reservation for 1 night at 13 months out.  I can choose usage between trust or legacy enrolled points as shown below:
> 
> https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...s_5Ptbg_P-4vjQA/Points Reservation.png?psid=1



What would be interesting would be to see if you could make the single night reservation with half trust and half legacy points- then I would start to think that maybe Seema's sources knew what was really going on.


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## FractionalTraveler (Mar 31, 2012)

I don't see that as an option.  Looks like you have to choose between one or the other.  That's kinda nice though.  I like that they gave me the choice.


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## tinman (Mar 31, 2012)

*Senior MVCI sources have told me that ALL VC points are equal*

My wife and I attended a presentation in Orlando in November 2011. We were told that if we purchased 1000 of the new DC points that all of our points from converting our weeks would be equal and be able to be used whenever and wherever we wanted, before signing the contract we asked one more time if ALL of the points would be equal, the answer was yes.
When we returned home I contacted Mr. Steve Weisz's office and asked the same question to the gentleman who took my call, and was told that the two types of points are NOT equal and NEVER would be equal. 
With that information we cancelled our contract, if fact, the gentleman who I spoke to offered to cancel the contract for us.
Once the email was sent to cancel we received calls from the salesman and his manager telling me that I misunderstood the presentation, I repeated some of his quotes and the conversation was over.
Unless Marriott has once again changed their course, the DC and legacy points will never be equal.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Here is a reservation for 1 night at 13 months out.  I can choose usage between trust or legacy enrolled points as shown below:
> 
> https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...s_5Ptbg_P-4vjQA/Points Reservation.png?psid=1



The question is, what's the origin of that one night?


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> I don't see that as an option.  Looks like you have to choose between one or the other.  That's kinda nice though.  I like that they gave me the choice.



Thinking about this more, and having never seen that particular interface before, I'm thinking that we'll have a definite answer as to this "a point is a point is a point" thing as soon as somebody with both types of points comes across a certain inventory request that can only be made using Trust Points.  Because if something can be booked using either type, the possibility that the DC Exchange Company is being utilized will exist.  But if something is only available using Trust Points, then we'll know that inventory is a direct Trust conveyance.

Hmmmm.  I think.  Or, am I missing something?


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## FractionalTraveler (Mar 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> Thinking about this more, and having never seen that particular interface before, I'm thinking that we'll have a definite answer as to this "a point is a point is a point" thing as soon as somebody with both types of points comes across a certain inventory request that can only be made using Trust Points.  Because if something can be booked using either type, the possibility that the DC Exchange Company is being utilized will exist.  But if something is only available using Trust Points, then we'll know that inventory is a direct Trust conveyance.
> 
> Hmmmm.  I think.  Or, am I missing something?



OK Sue, I found one that lets me combine both legacy and trust points for a 2-night stay in Maui.  Looks like I can select the entire 2K points from the trust or combine them for the total stay.

https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...TAu3Jg/Combined Points Reservation.png?psid=1


Cool stuff!


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## SueDonJ (Mar 31, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> OK Sue, I found one that lets me combine both legacy and trust points for a 2-night stay in Maui.  Looks like I can select the entire 2K points from the trust or combine them for the total stay.
> 
> https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...TAu3Jg/Combined Points Reservation.png?psid=1
> 
> ...



I agree - cool stuff!  Now I'm wishing I had DC Points available to play with this thing!    We're about a month out from figuring out what to do in 2013; maybe then I'll be in the playground. 

This latest you found still counts the points per night and won't let you combine the two types for a single night.  And we still don't know the origin of the inventory.  Unless, do you have more than the 1,000 Legacy Points available to play with?  Do you have the 2,000 that this stay costs?  Because if you do they're not letting you use 2,000 total Legacy points to book it, which leads me to think one of the nights must be Trust inventory.  (But if you don't have the 2,000 Legacy points that thought goes out the window.   )


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## FractionalTraveler (Mar 31, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> I agree - cool stuff!  Now I'm wishing I had DC Points available to play with this thing!    We're about a month out from figuring out what to do in 2013; maybe then I'll be in the playground.
> 
> This latest you found still counts the points per night and won't let you combine the two types for a single night.  And we still don't know the origin of the inventory.  Unless, do you have more than the 1,000 Legacy Points available to play with?  Do you have the 2,000 that this stay costs?  Because if you do they're not letting you use 2,000 total Legacy points to book it, which leads me to think one of the nights must be Trust inventory.  (But if you don't have the 2,000 Legacy points that thought goes out the window.   )



Right now, I don't see how the website will be able to show this.  If it sees you have enough points, it will take them but it doesn't tell you where they are from.

It has to do this on a per night basis becuase the valuation is on a per night basis and changes based upon property, season, and day of week.

The origin of the 2013 inventory for this experiment is 1150 Legacy + 1000 Trust.  I do have lots more legacy points but they are in the 2012 bucket at the moment.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 31, 2012)

The problem is that the website still doesn't show the source of the inventory. It could either all be in the Exchange Company or one night in the exchange company and the rest in the trust. My bet is however that both nights are in the exchange company and it is pushing you to use the legacy points first to pull inventory from the exchange company. It then has you using another 1K to get the desired reservation.

I never really understood early on why some people had reported a limitation trying to make a single night reservation with both types of points. Of course we don't know where the inventory was sitting at that time. If it was all in the exchange company, the combination of points shouldn't matter. They should be able to be combined to get the reservation. If it was in the trust, then I could understand why they couldn't get the reservation since it required 100% trust points and the legacy points couldn't pull from the trust.


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## fluke (Mar 31, 2012)

I think the original post is all about somantics.  The reference to Destinations Club quoted by th OP could easily be replaced with "internal exchange company" or any other term and it would agree with the prevailing opinion on this board.  

I made a post back in Nov/Dec describing my experience of Ko Olina trust inventory present that I was unable to access after Jan 2nd 2013 despite securing the more coveted previous holidays. A month or 2 later I was able to get that inventory with my legacy points.  This was not with just 1 VOA, I spoke to at least 3 different people.


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## FractionalTraveler (Mar 31, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that the website still doesn't show the source of the inventory. It could either all be in the Exchange Company or one night in the exchange company and the rest in the trust. My bet is however that both nights are in the exchange company and it is pushing you to use the legacy points first to pull inventory from the exchange company. It then has you using another 1K to get the desired reservation.
> 
> I never really understood early on why some people had reported a limitation trying to make a single night reservation with both types of points. Of course we don't know where the inventory was sitting at that time. If it was all in the exchange company, the combination of points shouldn't matter. They should be able to be combined to get the reservation. If it was in the trust, then I could understand why they couldn't get the reservation since it required 100% trust points and the legacy points couldn't pull from the trust.



I don't think its pushing me to pick anything first.  On the contrary, its letting me choose from where to deduct the points from.  I can take them all from the trust or just combine them.  Its my choice, thats cool!

I don't think they will ever have the website show the actual source of the inventory.  Why? I bet because the customer really doesn't care!  They just want a confirmed vactation.

For the record, I never experienced any limitation in making reservations for any number of nights but I understand others have.


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## m61376 (Apr 1, 2012)

I think Sue's right- the real test is two-fold:
-can legacy and trust points be combined for a single night's reservation?
-can trust points "see' the same things as legacy points? For any single night of a reservation, can the reservation be made with either trust or legacy points? Early on, many reported this was not the case. Has that changed?


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## dioxide45 (Apr 1, 2012)

m61376 said:


> I think Sue's right- the real test is two-fold:
> -can legacy and trust points be combined for a single night's reservation?
> -can trust points "see' the same things as legacy points? For any single night of a reservation, can the reservation be made with either trust or legacy points? Early on, many reported this was not the case. Has that changed?



A way to test this would be for FractionalTraveler (or anyone with trust and legacy points) to do searches and see if they can find anything where only trust points are provided as an option to make a reservation. If that type of scenario is returned, it would indicate that it is trust inventory and not in the exchange company.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 1, 2012)

Ok dioxide, Here it is:

https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...5R0x559XWnw/Reservation Experiment.png?psid=1

I can assure you this is combining both legacy and trust inventory for the 1-day.  I currently have 1150 legacy + 1000 trust points allocated for 2013.

So it definitely is combing the 2 to get me the reservation.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 1, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Ok dioxide, Here it is:
> 
> https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...5R0x559XWnw/Reservation Experiment.png?psid=1
> 
> ...



Good to see. Though it could still be inventory that is in the exchange company. I would hope to see that one can combine two types of points for anything in the exchange company despite what was the experiences of others in the past. There is really no way to know though where this inventory comes from. You are right, that in the end it really doesn't matter, all that matters is can someone get the reservation they desire.

Almost need to try for a 1000 point reservation that can only be pulled using your 1000 trust points and not also the 1000 legacy points. Would be interesting to see if that scenario exists. As that would show a distinction between trust inventory and exchange company inventory. If it can't be found, then it would seem that they have found a way for legacy points to pull trust inventory.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 1, 2012)

I have not been able to find that scenario yet, but I did find another interesting variation.  Looks like I can break up a full weeks stay at Hilton Head 13 months out and select exactly how I want the points divided from each pool (trust or legacy) in 50 & 100 point increments.  See link below.

https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...o72Q43IaYjcxmQ/Reservation Variant.png?psid=1

This seems really flexible.


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## GregT (Apr 1, 2012)

Fractional Traveler,

This is really good news if an individual day is mixing the two buckets.  I can't read the file on blackberry, can you describe the reservation?

I've seen situations where Mon/Tues/Wed were trust points and the other days were legacy points. But do I understand that you're having success booking Monday (as an example) combining the two types of points?

That would be a new (and good) development. 

Thanks!

Greg


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 1, 2012)

GregT said:


> Fractional Traveler,
> 
> This is really good news if an individual day is mixing the two buckets.  I can't read the file on blackberry, can you describe the reservation?
> 
> ...



Greg, 

Yes, I have already demonstrated in this thread that both buckets of points are mixing well for a 1-day reservation.

My latest experimental reservation was for Saturday check-in 3/30/2013.  That's exactly 13 months out.  Quite frankly I have checked this out on any day of the week prior to 3/30/2013 (including Monday 3/25/2013) and found the result to be the same.

On the website you can check the little "Date Flexible" box and you will see all the days that are available for your request.

I can't see where the inventory is coming from but I can elect from what bucket to take the points from to complete the reservation.


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## GregT (Apr 1, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Greg,
> 
> Yes, I have already demonstrated in this thread that both buckets of points are mixing well for a 1-day reservation.
> 
> ...



Fractional Traveler,

Thank you - I'll look at your examples when I am back online.   I do know the reservation system well, and will be happy to see this development. 

If you (or any Trust Point owner) have any extra trust points (25 pts?) for 2013, I'd love to repeat your success and can transfer you 25 legacy points in trade?

Best,

Greg


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## dioxide45 (Apr 1, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> I have not been able to find that scenario yet, but I did find another interesting variation.  Looks like I can break up a full weeks stay at Hilton Head 13 months out and select exactly how I want the points divided from each pool (trust or legacy) in 50 & 100 point increments.  See link below.
> 
> https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...o72Q43IaYjcxmQ/Reservation Variant.png?psid=1
> 
> This seems really flexible.



I notice in this scenario that they are "recommending" 1000 trust points, but in the others, it seemed they recommended legacy points first? Or did you change the selection?


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## dioxide45 (Apr 1, 2012)

GregT said:


> Fractional Traveler,
> 
> Thank you - I'll look at your examples when I am back online.   I do know the reservation system well, and will be happy to see this development.
> 
> ...



Another thing that would be good to know is, are transferred trust points treated as trust points? Though it may not really even matter with the commingling of inventory in the exchange company.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 1, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I notice in this scenario that they are "recommending" 1000 trust points, but in the others, it seemed they recommended legacy points first? Or did you change the selection?



No that was just me clicking on that particular one for example.  The website templete always displays Trust inventory in the first column and then the legacy points election in the next column.

I have checked all my saved scenarios and they all have defaulted to the first option row for selection.

Obviously you can click on any of the radio buttons and change the default selection.

Good catch.  Made me go back and re-verify.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 1, 2012)

GregT said:


> Fractional Traveler,
> 
> Thank you - I'll look at your examples when I am back online.   I do know the reservation system well, and will be happy to see this development.
> 
> ...



Greg,

Send me a PM tomorrow and I'll send you the points.


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## dioxide45 (Apr 2, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Ok dioxide, Here it is:
> 
> https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...5R0x559XWnw/Reservation Experiment.png?psid=1
> 
> ...



I wonder why the system didn't break the types of points out in this scenario. There is no table below that shows the Trust Points/Legacy Points . I would have expected options like, 1000 legacy and 1150 trust or 1150 legacy and 50 trust. Wonder if you booked this, where the points would actually come from.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 2, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> I wonder why the system didn't break the types of points out in this scenario. There is no table below that shows the Trust Points/Legacy Points . I would have expected options like, 1000 legacy and 1150 trust or 1150 legacy and 50 trust. Wonder if you booked this, where the points would actually come from.



Dioxide, good question.

In this scenario its clear that I don't have enough points in either bucket to make the reservation. I don't know why it didn't give me the option to elect how to perform the breakage.

Maybe, thats a third bucket the OP eluded to in his original post?


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 2, 2012)

Ok, I was able to answer my own question and what Dioxide was eluding to.

Yes, I can confirm now that when the website does not give you the option for the breakage, all the points are coming from the trust in this scenario.

How did I find out?  Easy, I placed the reservation in HOLD status and it showed me immediately that all the points were coming from the trust.

See link below.

https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...2ReWpIf_579z0fK5Q/Hold Reservation.png?psid=1

Maybe other can chime in and see if they agree?  I'm certainly no expert at this and I know a lot of other folks on this board are more experienced.


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## GregT (Apr 2, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Greg,
> 
> Send me a PM tomorrow and I'll send you the points.



Thank you very much -- I just sent you a PM.

Best,

Greg


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## m61376 (Apr 2, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> Ok dioxide, Here it is:
> 
> https://public.bay.livefilestore.co...5R0x559XWnw/Reservation Experiment.png?psid=1
> 
> ...





FractionalTraveler said:


> Ok, I was able to answer my own question and what Dioxide was eluding to.
> 
> Yes, I can confirm now that when the website does not give you the option for the breakage, all the points are coming from the trust in this scenario.
> 
> ...


So then we are back to square one wrt whether trust and legacy points can be combined for a single night. I know you had assumed that it was because you didn't have enough in either bucket to make the reservation, but since it is showing as all being from trust points it is possible that you are seeing availability but perhaps couldn't actually complete the reservation. Thoughts??


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 2, 2012)

m61376 said:


> So then we are back to square one wrt whether trust and legacy points can be combined for a single night. I know you had assumed that it was because you didn't have enough in either bucket to make the reservation, but since it is showing as all being from trust points it is possible that you are seeing availability but perhaps couldn't actually complete the reservation. Thoughts??



No, I think it would not have let me put the reservation on hold and take the inventory unless it was a valid request.  On HOLD status is just 1-click away from an actual confirmation number.  So I think the scenario is still VALID.

I am assuming that is the way the website business logic has been designed but I could be wrong.

There is no doubt that this scenario exists and can lead to a confirmation.  

What still remains as a key question, is how the back-end processing is occuring (i.e. HOW the inventory is being mixed-up not IF).  

How were the business rules implemented so that we can validate or in-validate these scenarios?

As a Sr. Software Engineer, I can tell you that there are basically two ways of learning this.

1. Review the Website Source code.
2. Reverse Engineer the business rules by performing these types of experimental scenarios and back-into the logic through trial and error.

Number 1 will never happen unless you have access to the code, so this one is out.  I would also never try to do this as it will definitely infringe on some illegal activity.

Number two is what we have been testing in this thread.  I guess others with similar capabilities can also perform their own tests and report back their own experiences as well.

The website also can have bugs which may distort our preception of reality when executing these tests so nothing is 100% in stone.

If others can find success in testing these scenarios over time then we can gain some level of confidence in our ability to understand whats happening.


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## puckmanfl (Apr 2, 2012)

good morning...

After 3 days at the Beach at Oceana Palms ( a stunning resort).  I realized that I have been contemplating the wrong question.  I(like the rest of us) have been contemplating Trust v. legacy points.  However, the true question is much simpler!!!!

At this time i own 4 deeded weeks that come with 13,866 enrolled points.  My vacation 401K is full.  IOW.. I am not in the market for more weeks, Legacy points Or Trust points. A few years ago, I drank the Kool Aid and purchased tomorrows vacations at today's prices.  I have done extremely well.

My 13,866 cannot be morphed into Trust points and I am not purchasing more, so the comparison is moot, except for an a academic exercise!!

The only question for me is "Has the DC rollout enhanced or hurt my timeshare portfolio???

To me the answer is an unequivocal enhancement!!!!!  I spent $695 to enroll...Used the 800 pts to more than recoup the $695...
I have made great DC point ressies, cancelled a gazillion times for no charge,, I have used the "Puck trick" twice to save 20%.  I have still used II to get some great snags on Flexchange with GV studios...  I still have great home weeks and my cash drains are guaranteed Hawaii honeymoons and in 15 years I plan to have the grand kids down for Pres weeks at GV in my 3 bedroom!!!

My rep asked me If I had a choice between 13,866 Trust points vs. My 4 deeds and 13,866 Enrolled which would i choose.  The answer was keeping what I have!!!!

Not to contradict windje in the "got the call" thread, but I believe that I am the big cheese in the new world (a direct purchaser with enuf legacy points to be Premier Plus)....I get so many benefits including the %45 discount which gets me Trust inventory (Oceana Palms) for cheaper than the MF's on Trust points...

I love MVCD!!!!!!

p.s today I get to meet Greg for Berns steak house and Lightning hockey!!!!


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2012)

I think one of the reasons we got into this whole discussion is because of the TUGger whose points were manipulated by a rep without the TUGger's knowledge or permission.  It was for one night of Trust inventory and when the rep couldn't cover it with a combination of Trust and Legacy points, s/he used a combination of the remaining Trust points in the TUGger's current Use Year and then borrowed the rest of the required Trust points from the next Use Year.  Except s/he didn't tell the TUGger about any of the manipulations including the borrowing!

I can't find the thread - does anyone else remember that?

I still go back to, it may be possible for Marriott to mingle the points and inventory among the buckets - even at the time of booking - so as to make it appear that DC Points are equal in all ways.  But in order to satisfy the required inventory controls and audits they must be able to match "points in" with "intervals out" at certain checkpoints, and I just can't see how they can do that if the points and intervals are not tracked and manipulated according to origin.  At this early stage with so much unsold inventory sitting in the Trust it should be relatively easy to do these manipulations, but as time goes on and more Trust points are sold that may not be the case.

But I still think that until/unless Marriott conveys something to the Trust and prohibits its use by any non-Trust Members, we Exchange Members should have relatively little problems using our Legacy Points to book pretty much anything through the DC Exchange Company.  Certain intervals might not be available at the minute our Reservation Window opens, but eventually we'll gain access to them.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2012)

FractionalTraveler, just a note here to say thanks for spending so much time in your account for purposes of this thread.  It's so helpful to be able to look at what's happening despite the fact that some of us don't have points to play with right now.

But please, be careful that you don't click on something that you didn't want to click!  The last thing we want is for you to end up with a reservation in East Timbuktu during Monsoon Season.


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## SueDonJ (Apr 2, 2012)

fluke said:


> *I think the original post is all about somantics.*  The reference to Destinations Club quoted by th OP could easily be replaced with "internal exchange company" or any other term and it would agree with the prevailing opinion on this board.
> 
> I made a post back in Nov/Dec describing my experience of Ko Olina trust inventory present that I was unable to access after Jan 2nd 2013 despite securing the more coveted previous holidays. A month or 2 later I was able to get that inventory with my legacy points.  This was not with just 1 VOA, I spoke to at least 3 different people.



What I bolded is a good point that you've made a few times in this thread - there's a strong possibility that some of what the OP related is simply the wrong use of words.  It really would be so much easier if the reps all had a good basic understanding of things, and used the same language when talking about it.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 2, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> FractionalTraveler, just a note here to say thanks for spending so much time in your account for purposes of this thread.  It's so helpful to be able to look at what's happening despite the fact that some of us don't have points to play with right now.
> 
> But please, be careful that you don't click on something that you didn't want to click!  The last thing we want is for you to end up with a reservation in East Timbuktu during Monsoon Season.



Sue,

Your very much welcome.  No worries, a 3-bedroom penthouse in Marco for the day wouldn't hurt a bit!

Best Regards.


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## windje2000 (Apr 2, 2012)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> After 3 days at the Beach at Oceana Palms ( a stunning resort).  I realized that I have been contemplating the wrong question.  I(like the rest of us) have been contemplating Trust v. legacy points.  However, the true question is much simpler!!!!
> 
> ...



You are indeed a master of the universe when it comes to maximizing your options, and have lots of ways to accomplish your goals.  It is working well for you and I hope it continues to do so long into the future.

Berns --- one of the best in the USA  Enjoy.


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## windje2000 (Apr 2, 2012)

SueDonJ said:


> FractionalTraveler, just a note here to say thanks for spending so much time in your account for purposes of this thread.  It's so helpful to be able to look at what's happening despite the fact that some of us don't have points to play with right now.
> 
> But please, be careful that you don't click on something that you didn't want to click!  The last thing we want is for you to end up with a reservation in East Timbuktu during Monsoon Season.



+1

BTW Sue - Timbuktu is on the edge of the Sahara desert in central Africa - no monsoons there


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## puckmanfl (Apr 2, 2012)

good afternoon...

Please also remember last june's sales data, 17 K customers , purchasing 35,000,000 points.  Just over 2k points per new purchase of Trust points.   How many Trust owners will have 5K Trust points to snag those primo weeks that will be added to the Trust.  I don't think MVCD will be adding Timbuktu in monsoon season!!!!  They will adding NYC etc....I think Legacy points wil work just fine for a long long time!!!

I was playing today..plenty of Oceana Palms and Marco stuff open....

Sue, can't slip anything by the geography police here on TUG :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


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## kjd (Apr 2, 2012)

There's a lot of wasted time and motion trying to split hairs between the meaning of a legacy point and a trust point.  It appears to me that the early description of two buckets has thrown everyone into a tither needlessly.  After thinking about it the only group to benefit from the two bucket approach is the sales staff who argue that you must buy some trust points to stay in the game.

It would seem to me that Marriott Corporate would look at it differently.  More like, what puts "heads in beds" rather than establishing two classes of ownership.  Perhaps some of the early statements announcing the new program have started a feeding frenzy by the sales staff.  If you remember that early in the game Marriott was a little unsure of how the program would work.  It lacked details.  As we move on it is my belief that things are smoothing out and we will get to the concept of "a point is a point".  We may be there already and there's no sense beating this "what if" situation to death on TUG.


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## GregT (Apr 2, 2012)

GregT said:


> Fractional Traveler,
> 
> Thank you - I'll look at your examples when I am back online.   I do know the reservation system well, and will be happy to see this development.
> 
> ...



All,

I'd like to thank Fractional Traveler for transferring me 25 Trust Points -- I in turn have transferred back to him 25 Legacy Points but it was his contribution that made this experiment possible.

I took the Legacy Points that I have and I parked the majority of them in a reservation, leaving 875 Legacy Points and his 25 Trust Points.   I then found a property that had individual days for 300 points apiece (Cypress Harbour, March 3 4 and 5th were available).  Although I knew the three days were available (based on requesting booking the individual days), the system would not allow me to book a 3 day reservation for 900 points.  Individual days were not a problem.

I believe this was due to an inability to combine Trust and Legacy Points for a single day, which was the hypothesis that we formed during this thread.  It is clear from other TUGgers experience that points can be combined on a day-by-day basis (example: Trust Points for Mon/Tues/Wed and Legacy Points for other days) but we still do not see the ability to combine the points to book a single day. 

No other experiments were run, but again my thanks to FT for making the Trust Points available.

All the best,

Greg


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## dioxide45 (Apr 3, 2012)

FractionalTraveler said:


> No, I think it would not have let me put the reservation on hold and take the inventory unless it was a valid request.  On HOLD status is just 1-click away from an actual confirmation number.  So I think the scenario is still VALID.



But you only have 1000 trust points available. You were trying to make a reservation for 1200 points. Where would the the system have pulled the additional 200 points from? Would it have asked you to confirm borrowing or banking 200 trust points to pull off the reservation?


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## dioxide45 (Apr 3, 2012)

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I'd like to thank Fractional Traveler for transferring me 25 Trust Points -- I in turn have transferred back to him 25 Legacy Points but it was his contribution that made this experiment possible.
> 
> ...



I think this limitation is just plain poor system design more than a true legal limitation of how trust and legacy points can be used to make a reservation. If the inventory is in the Exchange Company, the source of the points shouldn't matter. All points should be equal when pulling inventory from the Exchange Company.

Perhaps it has more to do with physical movement of inventory. There are no days where you can make a reservation for only 25 points. So in order to make the reservation with 25 trust points, the trust would have to move some physical inventory to the Exchange Company. With no days worth 25 points, there would be nothing that the trust could give the Exchange Company to make it whole? However, if windje's post about IOU, then this wouldn't make any difference because those IOUs would pile up to make enough for a single night for the trust to move to the Exchange Company.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 3, 2012)

dioxide45 said:


> But you only have 1000 trust points available. You were trying to make a reservation for 1200 points. Where would the the system have pulled the additional 200 points from? Would it have asked you to confirm borrowing or banking 200 trust points to pull off the reservation?



Yes, I think this is also a possibility.  Good point that needs to be tested!


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## ral (Apr 3, 2012)

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I'd like to thank Fractional Traveler for transferring me 25 Trust Points -- I in turn have transferred back to him 25 Legacy Points but it was his contribution that made this experiment possible.
> 
> ...



Thank you for performing this experiment. Eventually, I think Tuggers will determine how this program functions! Using the example you proposed, can we deduce the following: The Mon/Tues/Wed nights reserved by trust points could have been obtained from either the trust OR the exchange inventory and the rest of the nights (obtained by use of legacy points) could ONLY come from the exchange inventory?


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## Quilter (Apr 3, 2012)

Availability will be determined on inventory as well as "Trust" and "Legacy" points.

I have only Legacy points.   On 2/6 I turned in a couple weeks to get 12 nights at Frenchman's Cove next Jan.-Feb.   At that time all the days I questioned were available.   So the DC worked for me this time and I'm currently 100% satisfied.   Tweaking the reservation I called several more times to rearrange dates.   As time went on, inventory for each day I looked at got increasingly scarce as others began securing their '13 travel reservations.    I still remained with all the days I wanted so, for me, it was all good.

The system is still new.   What will matter to me over the years to come is whether I get the vacations I want at the time I want them using either home resort, II or DC.   That remains to be seen.   If it works, that's good.   If not, then I'll have to put my head in other beds.  Marriott doesn't control the whole vacation/travel industry.   There are plenty other opportunities for great travel memories.


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## smithde (Apr 3, 2012)

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I'd like to thank Fractional Traveler for transferring me 25 Trust Points -- I in turn have transferred back to him 25 Legacy Points but it was his contribution that made this experiment possible.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure this totally proves that you can't combine for a single day.  I believe all of the examples showed combinations in increments of 50 points.  I wonder what would have happened if you had 850 Legacy and 50 Trust points.  I'm guessing it still would not have worked, but it seems possible based on the other examples.


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## pacheco18 (Apr 3, 2012)

tinman said:


> My wife and I attended a presentation in Orlando in November 2011. We were told that if we purchased 1000 of the new DC points that all of our points from converting our weeks would be equal and be able to be used whenever and wherever we wanted, before signing the contract we asked one more time if ALL of the points would be equal, the answer was yes.
> When we returned home I contacted Mr. Steve Weisz's office and asked the same question to the gentleman who took my call, and was told that the two types of points are NOT equal and NEVER would be equal.
> With that information we cancelled our contract, if fact, the gentleman who I spoke to offered to cancel the contract for us.
> Once the email was sent to cancel we received calls from the salesman and his manager telling me that I misunderstood the presentation, I repeated some of his quotes and the conversation was over.
> Unless Marriott has once again changed their course, the DC and legacy points will never be equal.



I had the same untruthful presentation at Shadow Ridge.  Was told the same lie. Rescinded after I investigated.  I lodged an official complaint against the sales rep.  They never learn and they never will stop lying.


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## FractionalTraveler (Apr 3, 2012)

pacheco18 said:


> I had the same untruthful presentation at Shadow Ridge.  Was told the same lie. Rescinded after I investigated.  I lodged an official complaint against the sales rep.  They never learn and they never will stop lying.



I'm not sure what's being said at these presentations, but my experience from the last 2 years of making reservations as an enrolled and trust owner has been outstanding.

I routinely mix the points up between legacy and trust to get my reservation.

Don't really care where the points are coming from.  It just works!


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## seema (Apr 7, 2012)

So, to see if my quote of the senior source is true, or not- we should see if legacy points, trust points, or a combination to the two types of points, gets one access to any type of reservation (or  not), if it can be confirmed that resort units are available at that given time,


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## dioxide45 (Apr 7, 2012)

seema said:


> So, to see if my quote of the senior source is true, or not- we should see if legacy points, trust points, or a combination to the two types of points, gets one access to any type of reservation (or  not), if it can be confirmed that resort units are available at that given time,



I think that we have determined that there is a difference. Between what Puck was able to see at NCV for this summer with legacy points and what FractionalTraveler could see with trust points. There did seem to be an apparent difference. Fractional's trust points could see much more available inventory.


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## Wolfpacker (Apr 13, 2012)

FWIW, Went to the owner's meeting with the GO General Manager this week.  Among other things, he said that the use of 2 terms "Legacy points" and Trust points" was "our (Marriott's) bad" - it was too confusing and points are points so the distinction doesn't mean anything to us point-holders.  He said the terminology was "going away".  

He said that GO occupancy was about 10% through points (90% weeks).  He also said that only 1% of the Marriott GO weeks are owned by the Trust and that inventory was acquired by foreclosures.  He said they tended to keep the Bronze and Silver foreclosure weeks in the trust and resell the gold and platinum foreclosures.  He also said that "Marriott doesn't cherry-pick the inventory they assign from the trust-owned weeks" - that they distribute them across the _____ ( I wasn't clear if he meant "season" or "year" - I hope he meant "season").


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