# Destination Points experts - help - confirm what sales person told me



## pacheco18 (Nov 3, 2011)

I just attended the sales presentation at Shadow Ridge --  I had a good sales person -- but I need confirmation of a few things

I bought 2000 additional points (which I can rescind) to get me to Premier Plus and for other reasons.


Is it true that

1  - once you *buy* points ALL your points have priority access to the trust inventory?

2 -- all my points (legacy and trust) will be usable together in combination with no restriction?


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## puckmanfl (Nov 3, 2011)

good morning

No... NO.... NO..  No...

Once you buy your 2000 points...you will have exactly that!!!  Legacy points + 2000 Trust points.  Your points Legacy Points are NOT supercharged.  There isn't much difference between Legacy and Trust points anyway, so you will never know the difference...

Ask your sales person to put the fact that a purchase of  Trust points morphs your Legacy points IN WRITING in the contract!!!  Please let us know if this happens!!!!


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## windje2000 (Nov 3, 2011)

pacheco18 said:


> I just attended the sales presentation at Shadow Ridge --  I had a good sales person -- but I need confirmation of a few things
> 
> I bought 2000 additional points (which I can rescind) to get me to Premier Plus and for other reasons.
> 
> ...



Puckman is absolutely correct

Here's why:

All occupancy transactions are either reservations of owned property . . . or exchanges. 

Legacy weeks owners can only reserve what they own.  Their week.

Trust owners can only reserve what they own.  The weeks in the Trust.

* * * 

Suppose, for example, that the trust owned only one resort.  A trust owner reserving at the single trust owned resort is doing exactly the same thing as the weeks owner reserving at his or her home resort. (The fact that the trust owns more than one resort does not change that basic principle.)  

Weeks owners therefore either reserve their week . . . or elect points to exchange occupancy . . .through the exchange company.

Trust points owners either reserve the property they own in the trust or . . . exchange for a non trust property . . . through the exchange co.

* * *

A weeks owner cannot RESERVE trust inventory for the same reason a trust owner cannot RESERVE inventory at a legacy resort that is not owned by the trust.  The trust is the 'home resort' for the points owners.  

You as a weeks owner have the same right to the weeks owned by the Trust as the points owner has to the nontrust weeks at the resort you own. *None.*

The notion that it's unfair that a legacy owner has no access to trust inventory is wrong for exactly the same as an owner of SurfWatch thinking it is unfair that he can't make a reservation at Newport Coast Villas.    

Each, however, can  EXCHANGE for what is not owned.


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## puckmanfl (Nov 3, 2011)

good morning....
simply put...
Trust points are ownership shares in a deeded real estate trust...
Legacy points are currency in an Exchange Company...

I believe they in fact function almost seamlessly, as I have snagged both Trust and Legacy reservations in Prime Time quite easily...

The sales force is usingtrhe "trust supercharges Legacy " shpiel becuase they know they both function well and you will never know the difference...

I asked my O Palms sales guru t put the "supercharge" thing In writing and he declined.  I opened my checkbook and offered to write a check on the spot if it was put in writing...

The Trust morphs Legacy thing is now the only way for the sales force to get Legacy owners to pony up!!!!


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## pacheco18 (Nov 3, 2011)

That's why I love TUG

What about this priority issue?  Will having some trust points give me priority access to trust inventory?


And - what about the combination issue?  Can I use my 2000 trust points with 2000 legacy points to make a trade within Marriott out of the trust inventory?


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## dioxide45 (Nov 3, 2011)

pacheco18 said:


> I just attended the sales presentation at Shadow Ridge --  I had a good sales person -- but I need confirmation of a few things
> 
> I bought 2000 additional points (which I can rescind) to get me to Premier Plus and for other reasons.
> 
> ...



Did you take your tour at Oceana Palms? This is the stuff they are spewing there.



puckmanfl said:


> good morning
> 
> No... NO.... NO..  No...
> 
> ...



I think it is true that there isn't much difference between legacy and trust points at the moment. However, I do think as time passes and the trust sells more inventory, it will be more difficult for legacy owners to get what they want. It all goes back to supply and demand. Now just like before 6/30/2010, there is lots of unsold inventory. There is a growing number of owners reserving what for the time being is a finite amount of supply. Supply doesn't look to be going anywhere but demand sure is with every point they sell. The same thing would have happened to weeks had Marriott kept the weeks based TS model.


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## puckmanfl (Nov 3, 2011)

good morning

Dioxide...

remember that hey are selling trust points in 2000 pt increments (average sale)  More owners with less points... these owners can't snag the good stuff!!!  Doubt many Trust owners (pure) with more than 4K points...


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## windje2000 (Nov 3, 2011)

pacheco18 said:


> That's why I love TUG
> 
> What about this priority issue?  Will having some trust points give me priority access to trust inventory?
> 
> ...



The question you raise is really:  Will having some trust points give me priority access to trust inventory in the exchange co?

I have asked this question of every presenter.  Each one has stated emphatically that the exchange co is first come first served.

EDITED TO ADD:  You may want to read this June post by GregT on Marriott Trust Inventory Management   

LINK


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## dioxide45 (Nov 3, 2011)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning
> 
> Dioxide...
> 
> remember that hey are selling trust points in 2000 pt increments (average sale)  More owners with less points... these owners can't snag the good stuff!!!  Doubt many Trust owners (pure) with more than 4K points...



This is true, but those trust owners can still get short stay trips, they are still going to soak up inventory as the trust begins to sell down. They won't let their points go to waste.


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## puckmanfl (Nov 3, 2011)

good morning...

remember that with only 2000 pts, Trust owners can't book short stays until 10 months... I can do it at 13 months....

puck....


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## pacheco18 (Nov 3, 2011)

windje2000 said:


> The question you raise is really:  Will having some trust points give me priority access to trust inventory in the exchange co?
> 
> I have asked this question of every presenter.  Each one has stated emphatically that the exchange co is first come first served.
> 
> ...



Greg's post was superb and answered my questions

I just called a Marriott VOA (honest guy) who confirmed the sales rep misrepresented (said I should tell a supervisor at his end) and I just called to make an appointment with a supervisor here at the resort to lodge a complaint.   I will likely rescind if I cannot find a good reason to own trust points or have premier plus status.

My friends are here with me and they had an awful experience at their presentation. Trickery


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## dioxide45 (Nov 3, 2011)

pacheco18 said:


> Greg's post was superb and answered my questions
> 
> I just called a Marriott VOA (honest guy) who confirmed the sales rep misrepresented (said I should tell a supervisor at his end) and I just called to make an appointment with a supervisor here at the resort to lodge a complaint.   I will likely rescind if I cannot find a good reason to own trust points or have premier plus status.
> 
> My friends are here with me and they had an awful experience at their presentation. Trickery



Don't go back... They will find a way to talk you in to keeping those points and not rescinding. These guys, even the managers and supervisors are very good at what they do. Their paychecks depend on you buying those points.

The general consensus is that there are very few situations where buying trust points is a good idea. They are very expensive and there is not much benefit over owning a resale week somewhere.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 3, 2011)

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> remember that with only 2000 pts, Trust owners can't book short stays until 10 months... I can do it at 13 months....
> 
> puck....



You can only do that if Marriott moves the inventory from the trust in to the exchange company. Something that they aren't likely going to do at the 13 month mark. We have already determined that the 13 month reservation preference doesn't hold up very well.


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## pacheco18 (Nov 3, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> Don't go back... They will find a way to talk you in to keeping those points and not rescinding. These guys, even the managers and supervisors are very good at what they do. Their paychecks depend on you buying those points.
> 
> The general consensus is that there are very few situations where buying trust points is a good idea. They are very expensive and there is not much benefit over owning a resale week somewhere.



LOL - I am an attorney
I can hold my own
Nobody talks me into anything -- not even my husband

I want to go back to make my complaint very clear.  What happened to my friends was worse!


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## windje2000 (Nov 3, 2011)

pacheco18 said:


> LOL - I am an attorney
> I can hold my own
> Nobody talks me into anything -- not even my husband
> 
> I want to go back to make my complaint very clear.  What happened to my friends was worse!



Caveat emptor - Dioxide has made an apt observation regarding the abilities of Marriott sales people to persuade.  

As to attorneys, I seem to recall an adage that goes like 'she who represents herself . . . has a fool for a client'


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## pacheco18 (Nov 3, 2011)

windje2000 said:


> As to attorneys, I seem to recall an adage that goes like 'she who represents herself . . . has a fool for a client'



That must be some other fool.  LOLOL


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## pacheco18 (Nov 3, 2011)

*I'm no fool*

I spoke to the Director of Sales and met with the Sales Manager.
There was no question of misrepresentation on the only issue that would have been an incentive for me to buy more points (would my legacy points have the same status as my trust points if I purchased trust points).  Although at first the Sales Manager tried to defend what the salesperson said as being "sort of true," I am a litigator.  No way I was falling for that.  My question to the salesperson was specific and I asked the same question so many times that my husband was tempted to tell me to stop asking.

I rescinded!


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## GregT (Nov 3, 2011)

pacheco18 said:


> I spoke to the Director of Sales and met with the Sales Manager.
> There was no question of misrepresentation on the only issue that would have been an incentive for me to buy more points (would my legacy points have the same status as my trust points if I purchased trust points).  Although at first the Sales Manager tried to defend what the salesperson said as being "sort of true," I am a litigator.  No way I was falling for that.  My question to the salesperson was specific and I asked the same question so many times that my husband was tempted to tell me to stop asking.
> 
> I rescinded!



This has been an interesting case study to follow -- I'd love to hear any specifics you heard back from the Director of Sales and the Sales Manager as they tried to defend the legacy point/trust point differences.   

Thanks for reporting this!

Best,

Greg


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## windje2000 (Nov 3, 2011)

pacheco18 said:


> I spoke to the Director of Sales and met with the Sales Manager.
> There was no question of misrepresentation on the only issue that would have been an incentive for me to buy more points (would my legacy points have the same status as my trust points if I purchased trust points).  Although at first the Sales Manager tried to defend what the salesperson said as being "sort of true," I am a litigator.  No way I was falling for that.  My question to the salesperson was specific and I asked the same question so many times that my husband was tempted to tell me to stop asking.  and you followed the cardinal rule for cross and knew the answer to that question.
> 
> I rescinded!





> *What happened to my friends was worse!*



Can you share anything about what happened to your friends?


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## puckmanfl (Nov 3, 2011)

good evening.

dioxide...

remember, I snagged kauai Lagoons at the 12 months, 3 week mark...just one week short of 13 months.  Got both of my Park city weeks at exactly 13 months (6 day stays)


good ol puck....


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## pacheco18 (Nov 4, 2011)

*Full circle*

The rep sends me an email, attempting to explain that I misunderstood what he said.  NOT A CHANCE.  Here is the text of the email -- I am not disclosing his name.

"Thank you for taking the time with me and purchasing into the trust.  I really enjoyed meeting both of you and showing you the product. I’m very sorry that there was a misunderstanding of the difference on access and use of the properties. It concerns me greatly and is very stressful that you feel I mislead you in any way. 

2000 points bought trust inventory and first priority to trust inventory. Your current 11,100 gives you access to trust inventory just like access to other owners property. 
I did not and would not ever state that your 11000 points was now “Ownership” into the trust property. The only way to get ownership is to buy. I never stated that we would buy back your property and convert it to ownership of trust property. 

I “thought” your question to me, that I said “absolutely” to was, can I use my 11,000 points for trust inventory. The answer is yes there is access and trading into that inventory. There is a lot of blending of all the inventory from all sources to make sure owners can go on vacations. 

Early on I made a statement that you probably didn’t need anymore points unless you wanted status upgrades. I wrote down the 3 benefits. Trust ownership, platinum elite status and premier plus status.  

Again, I am very sorry that you feel I mislead you in any way. I don’t know how to put into words to convey to you how upset, stressed and saddened I am. I went from very excited to having a new owner that I would hear from and be able to help from time to time to now knowing there is a great Marriott owner that feels upset and mislead by me. 

I am always available to talk on the phone at"

I answered him as follows:

"Fraud.  All the elements met."

I will take this further up the food chain.


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## pacheco18 (Nov 4, 2011)

windje2000 said:


> Can you share anything about what happened to your friends?



They had not yet enrolled and I thought that it would be good for their particular situation. Their rep did not answer their questions about benefits of enrollment (and did not explain them) because he was only interested in a high pressure sell of points.  He lost patience and and got "angry."  

These are very smart people (and they've got me to help them understand the program).  She's got an MBA from Wharton.  He's a nuclear engineer.  They would not be snowed.  I arranged for them to meet with someone else the following day.  It was a way better experience for them. The rep confirmed what I said and they did enroll.


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## m61376 (Nov 4, 2011)

I think your experience mirrors what happens the majority of the time- except that most people take what is told them at face value and blindly accept what is clearly implied. While your salesperson may have taken it one step further (by stating that purchase of trust points would give all your points the same access to trust inventory), my impression from reading many others' posts is that the salespeople in general are extolling the virtues of purchasing additional points for enhanced access to trust inventory, with some nebulous comment about being able to book trust/new resorts with all your points. What is conveniently left out is that legacy points can trade into trust inventory that is in the exchange pool, but buying points, whether 1 or a million, does not "supercharge" or change the way the legacy points exchange.

It appears to me that most salespeople are trying to give the impression that buying more points enhances the tradability of your legacy points. As your salesperson's response indicates, they feel it is easy to convey one message but back-track from what they've said, labeling it as a misunderstanding, in case there is a rare customer who recognizes the inaccuracies. In general, so many people are so confused about the system that it is easy for a salesperson to blame a miscommunication as being a misunderstanding. I will be pleasantly surprised if you get anything more than platitudes as you pursue this up the food chain, so to speak.

I think a sticky post at the top of the forum would be helpful to newcomers to explain how the points are utilized, that there is an exchange pool, and that, irregardless of what a salesperson strongly implies, buying points does not reclassify legacy points, nor does it give them direct access to trust inventory over and above their prior access to such inventory (except if purchase of additional points enhances their ownership status to Premiere or Premiere Plus, since they have different booking windows, but not different access to trust versus exchange pool inventory).


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## pacheco18 (Nov 4, 2011)

m61376 said:


> I think your experience mirrors what happens the majority of the time- except that most people take what is told them at face value and blindly accept what is clearly implied. While your salesperson may have taken it one step further (by stating that purchase of trust points would give all your points the same access to trust inventory), my impression from reading many others' posts is that the salespeople in general are extolling the virtues of purchasing additional points for enhanced access to trust inventory, with some nebulous comment about being able to book trust/new resorts with all your points. What is conveniently left out is that legacy points can trade into trust inventory that is in the exchange pool, but buying points, whether 1 or a million, does not "supercharge" or change the way the legacy points exchange.
> 
> It appears to me that most salespeople are trying to give the impression that buying more points enhances the tradability of your legacy points. As your salesperson's response indicates, they feel it is easy to convey one message but back-track from what they've said, labeling it as a misunderstanding, in case there is a rare customer who recognizes the inaccuracies. In general, so many people are so confused about the system that it is easy for a salesperson to blame a miscommunication as being a misunderstanding. I will be pleasantly surprised if you get anything more than platitudes as you pursue this up the food chain, so to speak.
> 
> I think a sticky post at the top of the forum would be helpful to newcomers to explain how the points are utilized, that there is an exchange pool, and that, irregardless of what a salesperson strongly implies, buying points does not reclassify legacy points, nor does it give them direct access to trust inventory over and above their prior access to such inventory (except if purchase of additional points enhances their ownership status to Premiere or Premiere Plus, since they have different booking windows, but not different access to trust versus exchange pool inventory).



That is exactly my take.  It is very slick and a sleazy way of doing business.  Obviously there is a huge pool of legacy owners (multiple week owners like myself) who enrolled in the DP program but have NOT purchased additional points because we do not need any more points.  This less than truthful approach is targeted at us.


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## GregT (Nov 4, 2011)

*The Disney Gamble*

What has been interesting (to me) over the last couple of months is appreciating the similarity between the new Marriott system and the existing Disney system.

Disney also has a convoluted points chart -- permits banking and borrowing -- permits transfers -- has high MFs, so its more of a travel network than a discounted vacation system.   It has high quality accomodations and delivers a feeling of inclusion into something bigger than a timeshare system.   Its owners happily buy points directly from Disney and the system is designed to sell ever more packages of points.  The owner may start with 160 points (like 3,000 DC PTs) and then buy another 100 later, or 50, or 200.

Marriott's DC is very similar -- complicated points chart -- banking/borrowing/transfers permitted -- and at $0.40 per point MFs, relatively high MFs compared to the equivalent rental cost.  You're buying access to the system.

The open question -- and what I am calling the Disney Gamble that Marriott has made -- is are the Marriott owners the same type of fiercely loyal owner, that are going to keep buying the product in quantity to sustain the business?

Unfortunately for Marriott (and I mean this genuinely) -- the existence of the two buckets (legacy/trust) is going to harm the loyalty of the existing Marriott owner.  If Pacheco18 hadn't rescinded, would Pacheco buy yet more points next year (like the Disney owner does) or would Pacheco's reservation experience be difficult (like SuperChief/Kedler and the others).

Marriott is most likely to get repeat business from brand new points purchasers -- and maybe they will be like the Disney owner -- however what happens when they run into someone who will tell them to rescind and go buy a legacy week resale.  For comparison, Disney owners congratulate each other when they buy Direct.

Interesting stuff -- and very very disheartening that Marriott resorts to smoke and mirrors to sell the points.

The answer for Marriott is to prominently display in their sales presentations how they will actively mix Trust/Legacy points -- and it can be done, if Marriott wanted.  The owner needs to buy enough points to break a week in the Trust -- and then Inventory Control needs to immediately match (not Waitlist) your legacy points to book the remaining days in the broken week.   This will supercharge your "worthless" legacy points (according to Marriott sales pitch to me) -- but it is not direct access to the Trust, which is an important distinction.

Until they honest with their customers (and honest with themselves about the real limitations of their system).......they run the risk of alienating their remaining loyal Marriott owners.

Best,

Greg


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## pacheco18 (Nov 4, 2011)

I agree with you Greg for the most part.  I fact, this conduct on the part of Marriott has made me less loyal to them -- but I will still pay the system to the hilt.

However, I do not consider my legacy points worthless because I am not looking to trade much. I own where I want to go.  DP does give me a little more flexibility if I want it.  If I ever convert to DP points it will be to add a few days to a stay at one of my home resorts or perhaps book something from one of the collections.  I am not looking to go to Crystal Shores or some of the other locations where legacy inventory is almost non existent.


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## GregT (Nov 4, 2011)

pacheco18 said:


> I agree with you Greg for the most part.  I fact, this conduct on the part of Marriott has made me less loyal to them -- but I will still pay the system to the hilt.
> 
> However, I do not consider my legacy points worthless because I am not looking to trade much. I own where I want to go.  DP does give me a little more flexibility if I want it.  If I ever convert to DP points it will be to add a few days to a stay at one of my home resorts or perhaps book something from one of the collections.  I am not looking to go to Crystal Shores or some of the other locations where legacy inventory is almost non existent.



Pacheco,

My apologies, I definitely do not think legacy points are worthless -- on the contrary, I believe they are incredibly valuable.  However, I actually had a sales rep tell me my legacy points were worthless, which was one of the most ridiculous statements I'd ever heard.  I've edited my original post to clarify -- because DC points are very valuable.

I too will play the system to the hilt, and my loyalty to Marriott took a major hit when they skimmed their loyal ownership.   But it is a good system and we are right to take the opportunity to utilize the components we like.  It is a shame that they could not introduce it in a manner more attractive to existing owners.

Thanks again for posting your experience here....

Best,

Greg


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## pacheco18 (Nov 4, 2011)

And I wrote "pay" the system when obviously I meant "play" - what wouldDr. Freud think of that?


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## Mamianka (Nov 5, 2011)

pacheco18 said:


> That is exactly my take.  It is very slick and a sleazy way of doing business.  Obviously there is a huge pool of legacy owners (multiple week owners like myself) who enrolled in the DP program but have NOT purchased additional points because we do not need any more points.  This less than truthful approach is targeted at us.



Add us to that list - we own a 2BR lockoff MGC, and last year bougt a 2BR lockoff EOY at BPT.  At the 2 meetings since, we have been fed he same line of horse hockey.  WE are currently at MGV, and I have a thread called "At MGV - holding strong" about our triple refusal to ever go to a presentation again.
WE were at Oceana Palms this March when I had to end the conversation by pointing out that HE was in a business suit, and WE were in shorts and T-shirts, but this was clearly  business meeting, and we had arrived with a point of view, MUCH research and information, and 2 backbones.

I am thinking of getting together a fun/social group of former (retired) colleagues to just have a few drinks each month and *talk shop* abut timesharing.  Every time we see each other at functions, that is where the conversation goes, anyway! Found another former colleague (it's a BIG school district!) actually THRU TUG!  Amazing!  Gotta get back to that plan!

We never intend to buy one more point or property - we are fine the way we are.  Even the stats about who has bought ow much in what system, I am sure are manipulated.  We might have out own *sticky* about that, but I betcha that there are plenty of MVC owners who are unenrolled, or enrolled with no add'l points, too. (Yes, we enrolled - works for our usage patterns).


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