# Marriott is extending introductory enrollment pricing to exchange program



## BocaBum99 (Dec 28, 2010)

We’ve extended introductory enrollment pricing!

The new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations™ Exchange Program has been so successful, we haven’t had the chance to talk with all our Owners about it. That’s why we’re extending introductory enrollment pricing until June 30, 2011. With this special offer, you can enroll in the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program starting at just $595. 

Already, Owners like you have enrolled nearly 100,000 weeks! Remember, when you enroll in the new program, you’ll enjoy exciting benefits including: 

New vacation choices including our popular tour of Tuscany and a fantastic selection of cruises.
The ability to choose your check in day,* length of stay and accommodation size* when you stay at a Marriott Vacation Club® resort.
The option to bank or borrow Vacation Club Points from year to year.
A simplified annual-fee structure.†

Enroll today -- call 800-307-7314.



*Subject to availability.
†Enrolled Owners will still be required to pay the annual maintenance fees due and owing each year to their resort’s Owners Association 

This is neither an offer to sell nor a solicitation to buy to residents in jurisdictions in which registration requirements have not been fulfilled, and your eligibility to purchase will depend upon the state of residency of the purchaser.

THIS ADVERTISING MATERIAL IS BEING USED FOR THE PURPOSE OF SOLICITING THE SALE OF TIMESHARE PERIODS . 

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MDC-10-207


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## Nickfromct (Dec 28, 2010)

Just got my email. Not surprising is it?


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## mwwich (Dec 28, 2010)

Next piece of necessary info....what are they going to charge for points?


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## RandR (Dec 28, 2010)

But why do they need to extend it?  Hasn't everyone signed up already?:rofl:


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## wof45 (Dec 28, 2010)

we already signed up, received and used our 800 bonus points, didn't pay 3 cancellation fees in October, didn't pay lockoff fees in October, didn't pay 2 MRP trade fees in November, and got in on the 1/2 off points special earlier this month.

It all depends on what you have and how you use it.  I'll see how our planned DC reservation goes in two weeks for 2012 use.


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## Pens_Fan (Dec 28, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> We’ve extended introductory enrollment pricing!
> 
> The new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations™ Exchange Program has been so *half-assedly rolled out*, we haven’t *bothered* to talk with all our Owners about it. That’s why we’re extending introductory enrollment pricing until June 30, 2011. With this special offer, you can enroll in the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program starting at just $595.
> 
> ...



fixed

Actually, I'm not against the new program.  I just think Marriott did a crap job of presenting it to their owners.


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## DanCali (Dec 28, 2010)

Nickfromct said:


> Just got my email. Not surprising is it?



Not surprising, but important to note that what has been extended is the price. The offer to enroll weeks was never in question...

As discussed in other threads, Marriott's wording on this was ambiguous. I have always maintained (in several threads on the topic) that the words "this offer" refer to the price, but it was ambiguous enough that quite a few people interpreted it otherwise (i.e. referring to the first sentence below rather than the second sentence), most notably Marriott salespeople...


> "If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program. The enrollment fee for one externally purchased week will initially be $1,495, and enrolling multiple externally purchased weeks will initially total $1,995. This offer is expected to be available only through December 31, 2010. Once you enroll your week(s), you will gain the annual option to elect Vacation Club Points, and you may also add the option of trading your week(s) for Marriott Rewards points if the week(s) you purchased externally are eligible for Marriott Rewards trade. You also will gain the benefit and convenience of the annual single-use fee (Club Dues)."



The fact that they didn't raise what is already an exorbitant price doesn't surprise me. I've looked long and hard at enrollment fees of exchange companies to try to find any justification for a $2000 enrollment fee or even a $600 fee. Even the $600 fee is completely off the charts...

As pointed out by others, Marriott is much better off in the long run when 400,000 owners pay $200 each year... Un unenrolled week doesn't help Marriott and increasing prices cannot possibly increase enrollment. My guess is that they are trying to maximize revenue - start as high as possible to capture whoever is willing to pay $2000 and then lower prices over time to increase enrollment by capturing the more price sensitive (or people who benefit less from the DC) customers. Ultimately enrollment prices should be influenced by the realities of the market and what most others charge (i.e., "free").

Added: the email above refers to developer weeks enrollment. I'm assuming the same policy follows for resale weeks - but with Marriott, you never know. I have not received any email so maybe I'll get shut out in 3 days after all!


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## scrapngen (Dec 28, 2010)

Received my email as well. 

Yep, so funny to think of the salesperson last week and the manager as well stating "I only have until end of next week to make this huge decision, and we know the price will only go up!!" I said at the time that I'm sure we'll still have the chance to join sometime down the line...:rofl: :rofl:


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## w.bob (Dec 28, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Added: the email above refers to developer weeks enrollment. I'm assuming the same policy follows for resale weeks - but with Marriott, you never know. I have not received any email so maybe I'll get shut out in 3 days after all!



I own a resale week and received the same email. I am an Every Other Year owner and the cost is is still $1495.00 so I will not be joining.


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## DanCali (Dec 28, 2010)

w.bob said:


> I own a resale week and received the same email. I am an Every Other Year owner and the cost is is still $1495.00 so I will not be joining.



Maybe they just wrote me off completely after I filled the last DC program survey...


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## csalter2 (Dec 28, 2010)

*Bonus Points?*



DanCali said:


> Maybe they just wrote me off completely after I filled the last DC program survey...



Are the 800 bonus points still going to be there for those who join after December?


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## DanCali (Dec 28, 2010)

csalter2 said:


> Are the 800 bonus points still going to be there for those who join after December?



In my opinion that offer will be gone but, also in my opinion, there will be some other incentive... 

That said, I'm the wrong person to ask. Even if I were to enroll, I no longer base decisions on such incentives designed to rush my decision (I've found too often I regret that decision later). And since I have no plan to enroll, I couldn't care less about the 800 one-time points...


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## thinze3 (Dec 28, 2010)

I was going to enroll this week, but since my 2011 weeks are already accounted for, I will now wait.

NOTE:
You can also enroll multiple "external" weeks and "internal" weeks online now for the maximum price of $1995 in lieu of the $1495-1995 external + $595-695 internal.  No need to call and get the discount.  The website automatically discounts the external weeks to $1400 which it did not do before.


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## m61376 (Dec 28, 2010)

Does it say online that the current resale rate has been extended?


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## Swice (Dec 28, 2010)

*What I'm worth*

According to Marriott, I would be worth 6,625 points if I joined.

For 2011 I've already traded:
1.   Lakeshore one bedroom for Oceana Palms  Memorial Day week
          Under points system would have cost me 2,950

2.   Lakeshore master bedroom for Boston Custom House  2011 Thanksgiving
           Under points system would have cost me 2,000

3.   OceanWatch   two-bedroom  for Ko'Olina July 4th week
           Under points system would have cost me 4,125

Three vacations next year would cost me 9,075 points.   

Obviously, there are those who would point out I could "join" and do the above and save fees.     

But man.   I have to wonder if my "worth" has gone up to Interval?   

... I'm "just saying... ? "


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## kjd (Dec 28, 2010)

I think Swice's experience would fit a lot of us who tend to lock off their units and travel during the shoulder or off seasons.  You have to ask yourself if the DC is worth it.  Many of us have a far greater "investment" in MRP's than if we joined the DC points system.  Saving money on the transaction fees is small in comparison to what you have spent in buying the unit, the yearly maintenance fees and the total value of the MRP's you now hold.

The only rationale for my joining the DC would be a crap shoot.  That is, gambling that the DC would offer benefits not presently offered, in the future.  In that light the $599 is not going to hurt anybody.  That's the most you can lose.  However, it's also possible that Marriott will do a DC points devaluation in the future.  That would indeed be a slap in the face to all who bought into the concept of a points program.  

Marriott has bungled the introduction of the DC and these silly memos and announcements about the extension of the offer (followed by retractions), to pre-6/20 owners only serves to undermine confidence in the DC points program.


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## Swice (Dec 28, 2010)

kjd said:


> I think Swice's experience would fit a lot of us who tend to lock off their units and travel during the shoulder or off seasons.  You have to ask yourself if the DC is worth it.  .



Note:   My trades are not off season... at least Marriott doesn't consider them off season -- based on the amount of "points" they would charge someone else.


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## Big Matt (Dec 28, 2010)

My experience is very much like Swice.  Also, I usually get at least one AC from II and have used many for great trades.  Finally, the places that I like to go the most are already sold out.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 28, 2010)

The subject of the e-mail is "Good News! You can still enroll at a discounted rate!". I don't understand how something that has only had one price since roll-out can still be enrolled at a discounted rate. This is marketing jargon, it isn't a discount unless it was priced higher at some point in time, which it never was.


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## sueoz (Dec 29, 2010)

I got the email, too.  We had already decided not to enroll.  I felt we would have lost too much!!  We own two (2 bedroom) weeks at Manor Club.  We travel mostly shoulder seasons.  Most times I have been able to lock off both and trade each of those for a two bedroom somewhere so that we could travel with friends.  Some years I was able to get and use a bonus week for each week.  In our case - we would never equal that with the points system.  If anyone thinks I'm wrong - please tell me!

Thanks, Sue


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## jerseyfinn (Dec 29, 2010)

> The new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations™ Exchange Program has been so successful, we haven’t had the chance to talk with all our Owners about it. That’s why we’re extending introductory enrollment pricing until June 30, 2011. With this special offer, you can enroll in the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program starting at just $595.




Golly! What a surprise! The axe did not fall at years end on this "once-in-a-lifetime" offer  .  No signifigance here other than the fact that Marriott, like every other business is out there pounding the pavement for scarce sales. Good news is that the price did not go up -- then again, why would Marriott forrce one's hand so early in the game?

The *100,000 weeks enrolled *is also promotional hubris  . Keep in mind that an *enrolled* week *is not *a week up for trade/occupancy. They are simply aggregate qualifying weeks that MVC owners have enrolled with MVCEC. An MVC owner has three choices here; enroll and do nothing as you will reserve/occupy your MVC week as usual in the legacy program;  submit a week and request a trade within MVCEC; or elect to take equivilant VC points for the program year and submit your requests via the DC pool ( which means you are competing inside of the Trust inventory ).

The better question to ask is *how many of those 100,000 enrolled MVC weeks have been submitted for a trade*. 

Why is this so important? Because the trade inventory allocated to MVCEC is distinct from MVC Interval trade inventory. At this early stage of the program, it remains uncertain what sort of requests enrolled owners will submit to MVCEC and what sort of seasonal inventory MVCEC holds ( yes, although Marriott is trying to erase the platinum/gold/silver distinctions by bluring them into VC points, seasons still matter, especially for those who stick with MVC & Interval ). 

Another important factor in conducting an MVCEC trade is if one is requesting a trade into one of the Trust resorts.  If one careflully reads the T&C of the Trust etc. you'll note that Marriott is "fuzzy" about inventory.  At this early stage of the game when DC membership and hence DC demand is low, Marriott has the luxury of moving Trust weeks any way they wish -- such as helping to provide Trust inventory for MVCEC requests provided the Trust controls weeks in the equivilant MVC season.

What folks need to realize is that during this early phase of DC, Marriott is doing a behind-the-scenes juggling act to make up for a short fall of trade inventory until it is able to convince/coerce sufficient numbers of MVC owners to not only enroll their MVC weeks, but to utilize MVCEC for a trade -- or better yet ( for Marriott) to convert to VC points and fatten the Trust pool. I'm not knocking Marriott for this, as it ain't easy getting a new program up and running.

But those 100,000 weeks are a meaningless number. The true metric is MVCEC's capacity to fulfill trade requests during theses first couple of years. At this moment, Interval still controls a good number of deposited weeks and this creates a huge dilemma for we MVC folks. It's going to be a tricky proposition deciding whether to use MVCEC or Interval these first few years. I suspect that Marriott will be able to fulfill many MVCEC trade requests only because the dank ecnomy puts the damper on new DC members ( and here it is not about the aggregate number of new DC members, but rather how many VC points they purchase and control ).

Right now, MVC and MVCEC/DC exist on parallel courses. We ourselves have enrolled, but we will continue to occupy via MVC and will use Interval for any trade deposits/requests in 2011 because I believe that they hold sufficient inventory to meet our needs.  This situation is going to change at some point in time. I just do not see it being as urgent as Marriott first tries to imply with their "sign up now or lose out" sales pitch.

Barry


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## BocaBum99 (Dec 29, 2010)

Barry,

How many of the 100,000 enrolled weeks are owned by Marriott?


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## kjd (Dec 29, 2010)

Just finished my session with a salesperson about the new points system.  I was told that the cost of purchasing extra points is going up tomorrow so it's time to act.  Also told that over 230,000 existing owners have joined the DC points system.  Was told that one person paid $60,000 to become a points member in the top category.

These are statements that I found difficult to believe.  According to the salesperson legacy owners are joining in droves. Asked if there was a resignation program and was told "we're working on it".  The salesperson put a lot of emphasis on the DC travel options which frankly looked pretty good.  There was also the claim that maintenance fees would probably be less for new owners than the fees paid by legacy weeks owners.  The reason for that was given as .40 per point would be less than some resort MF now being charged.  That might be due to the skim-off of some points by Marriott.  What went unsaid is the fact that less points mean less usage.  All in all there was not much new news except for these statements which seemed excessive.


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## wof45 (Dec 29, 2010)

kjd said:


> Just finished my session with a salesperson about the new points system.  I was told that the cost of purchasing extra points is going up tomorrow so it's time to act.  Also told that over 230,000 existing owners have joined the DC points system.  Was told that one person paid $60,000 to become a points member in the top category.
> 
> These are statements that I found difficult to believe.  According to the salesperson legacy owners are joining in droves. Asked if there was a resignation program and was told "we're working on it".  The salesperson put a lot of emphasis on the DC travel options which frankly looked pretty good.  There was also the claim that maintenance fees would probably be less for new owners than the fees paid by legacy weeks owners.  The reason for that was given as .40 per point would be less than some resort MF now being charged.  That might be due to the skim-off of some points by Marriott.  What went unsaid is the fact that less points mean less usage.  All in all there was not much new news except for these statements which seemed excessive.



I'm a little surprised at the number of enrolled legacy owners, but maybe they have been busy at the end of the year.

The $60,000 doesn't meet the top category, since $60,000 would only buy about 6,000 points which is the middle category.  I believe the top category is above 13,000.  $60,000 doesn't really surprise me since people were spending that much for platinum plus weeks at some resorts under the old system.  While the recession has hurt a lot of people, there are also a lot of people who have not been hurt.

I guess we'll all find out how well DC works as time goes by


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## DanCali (Dec 29, 2010)

kjd said:


> I was told that the cost of purchasing extra points is going up tomorrow so it's time to act.



It's always time to act... especially when their bonus is coming up at the end of the year!



kjd said:


> Also told that over 230,000 existing owners have joined the DC points system.  Was told that one person paid $60,000 to become a points member in the top category.



You were lied to:



> For the period 6/20/2010 thru 9/17/2010
> 
> * 24,739 enrollments
> * 53,975 enrolled owner weeks
> ...



LINK

Looks like the salesperson just added a zero to the number of enrolled owners... no biggie.

(I couldn't find the post with the updates stats showing enrollment rate actually slowed between September and November, but there is such a post)


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## windje2000 (Dec 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> It's always time to act... especially when their bonus is coming up at the end of the year!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LINK to stats for the 20 weeks ended 11/17/2010


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## proman (Dec 29, 2010)

*Marriott is trying to fool it's owners to squeeze more money*

I attended the presentation. I received a call couple days ago before the check-in date and I was told they are trying to welcome me and accomodate my stay. Then I was told there is a presentation to explain how the new point system works. I signed up just would like to learn what is the new point system.

The presentation soon dispointed me since the sales just focused on those "dream vacations" that we knew about already. The only difference is that he emphesizes those vacations will be much easier unde the new point system. He kept saying you CAN do this, you CAN do that, you CAN do everything with the new point system, but never even mentioned how much it's gonna cost. I believe he is trying to give us wrong impression that all these vacations we CAN do is all included with our existing ownership.

We soon realized that this is not an "educational" presentation, but a sales attempt. Before we even know how the new point system works and what's the impact on our exchange power, the sales made decision for us to spend $15000 to buy 1500 points in order for us to "enjoy" in the new system. So he is expencting anyone just throw out 15K without even knowing how it works and why we need to put in more money?

After asking couple questions, we found out he didn't tell us the truth. The more questions we asked, the more we became suspecious. The biggest one is that the points our weeks worth (platinum, 2775 points/week) is not enough to live in our own unit at the time period of our own weeks (3500 points needed). Can you believe that???? That's why he was pushing us to buy 1500 more points, because he knows once we enroll, we WON'T be able to do what we used to do anymore, GUARANTEED!!!!! And the only way to hide that truth is for us to throw in another $15000. How smart!!!!!

And the "guarantee" from him that "no more exchange fees" is also a lie. Marriott charges $200 exchange fee every year, even if you don't use it!!!

When we asked about how many points needed to exchange to the facility in Hilton Head we used to go (we went there for the past couple years), he pulled out a booklet, looked at it and told us it's 4000 points. Again, in the new system it's 100% guaranteed that we will not be able to "exchange" to there anymore without spending more $$$$. 

This apparently is a sales trick to ask us to enroll a program to de-valuate our investment. And we even have to pay to do that!!! We asked to look at the booklet to see the table of points on all facilities, but he refused!! HE REFUSED!!!!! 

Another BIG SURPRISE we found out is that he told us that "If you used up the points this year, you can even borrow the points from next year so you can use it to do exchanges." Sounds nice. But, I don't know why, I just asked 

"What if we don't use the points?" 

"Don't worry, you always have a gracious 2-year window to use your pointS". 

"Um, what do you mean 2-year window?" 

"Oh, we have no doubt that you sure will use all your points in 2 years".

"Yeah, that's what you just told us. But what I am asking is what 2-year? How do you count it? What happens if we don't use the points in the 2-year windw?" 

The wording the sales use is very well decorated. We finally found out THE REAL MEANING OF HIS WORDING IS 

IF YOU DON'T USE YOUR POINTS BY THE END OF THE YEAR, YOU LOSE IT   !!!!!

So, for example, for 2012, you can borrow the points from 2012 (I don't know if that's true and how that works and how much fees you need to pay to borrow) to use in 2011. So 2011 is the first year you can use the 2012 points. And 2012 is the 2nd year you can use your 2012 points. After 12/31/2012, if you still have unused 2012 points, say bye bye to them!!! WHAT A NICE WAY TO KEEP MY ACCOUNT CLEAN AND IN ORDER !!!!! NO ROTTEN POINTS !!!!!


What is Marriott thinking? All the owners are idiot or what? They expect the owners will just supidily feel this is a good thing and spend $$$$$ to de-valuate their ownership? What a stupid scam!!! 

I can't believe Marriott is doing this!!!! This is fraud!!!!!

The sales realized that we found out "something is not right" and trying to figure out the truth, he dropped the $15000 sales attempt and push hard on us to "just" spend $695 to enroll our weeks. I asked the sales to give us some detailed, printed info about the new point system, such as terms and conditions, etc. so we can have better understanding. But he just kept pushing us to throw $695 to enroll and told us that only after enrolling can we see any document. 

Of course, we refused to enroll, since we feel something is very wrong with the new system. If we enroll, we don't know what we are signing up to and what our ownership will become.

The sales was pretty upset and said "I don't understand, this is such a wonderful program and will give you more flexibility and power on your vacation,  you got nothing to loose by enrolling, how could you decide not to enroll?". We told him "The first thing we loose immediately is $695. We didn't say it is bad or good, because we don't know yet. We need more time and info to to think about it and decide if we would like to enroll. Since you are more interested to ask us to spend $15000 than actally explaning to us how the point system works as we were told what this meeting is for, it's very unlikely we will take any action today since we are here only to learn how the new system works, not to rush in, throw another $15000 without knowing what is really going on. It's just not the way how we do business."

I don't know others, but $15000 is a lot money to me. Although we paid cash on our ownership of 2 platinum weeks of a 2 BR unit couple years ago, that doen't mean we are willing to randomly throw out another $15000 for something we don't know. What is Marriott thinking?????

Will anyone throw out that kind of money after listening to couple minute worth of "it's such a wonderful program". The sales just "carelessly" mentioned that "don't worry, we can put everything on your credit card". Wow, how nice! But, gee, I am really wondering who is going to pay that credit card..... I can't believe this is what a Marriott sales does and says!!!

At last, disappointed and a little angry, we decided to walk. Minutes later, another "sales manager" poked her head in, and, incredibly, she still tried to sell us an "insurance" for "the offer" we got today in case we change our mind, because "the offer is only good for today". 

We could tell from her expression that she knows they are trying to trick us into a unfavorable situation, and we found out the truth and didn't fall for it. So as soon as we looked into her eyes and laughed, she left quickly without showing all the flyers she had in her hands.

Again, I can't believe this is Marriott. Looks like they are trying to shift from an honest person into a con artist. Just like other timeshare sales: "Oh my god, my sales manager just authorized an incredible deal and this offer is only good for now." "Uh, $20000 is too high? How about $19950? $19000? $15000? $10000? Come on, give me a price.......".

Guys, don't enroll !!!! Hole your ownership. I heard there are other much more serious issues if majority of owners enroll!!! We could lose control of our ownership and Marriott can do whatever they want!!! It will become a disaster for we owners!!!!!

Tell your fellow owners don't enroll, you never know what the truth is behind the Marriott sales' smiling faces.


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## tombo (Dec 29, 2010)

Proman welcome to TUG and many of us feel just like you do. I want to warn you that there are a few here who believe that Marriott is wonderful, any program they offer is wonderful, and that any thing Mariott tells you is the gospel. Don't get offended or leave TUG if you catch some flack from one or more of the Mariott faithful. Just know that many of us agree with everything you said. We encourage every owner to tell Marriott that they will not enroll their weeks into the magical points program with values which can be changed at any time. If you swap you will get the right to use points who's value can be increased or decreased at any time for any reason and the ever changing points are not transferable to subsequent buyers. Also I don't know if you know it but once you swap to points you give all of your voting rights to Marriott. Won't it be great for owners when the majority of votes are controlled by the company which is also the developer, sales organization, and mgt company. Who do you think Marriott will be looking out for, the owners or themselves? :annoyed: 

Yes there are a lot of reasons to not enroll, and as long as owners like you refuse to enroll Marriott will forever extend the joining deadlines. Tell every owner you see to not enroll for the good of all.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Dec 29, 2010)

proman said:


> I attended the presentation. I received a call couple days ago before the check-in date and I was told they are trying to welcome me and accomodate my stay. Then I was told there is a presentation to explain how the new point system works. I signed up just would like to learn what is the new point system.
> 
> The presentation soon dispointed me since the sales just focused on those "dream vacations" that we knew about already. The only difference is that he emphesizes those vacations will be much easier unde the new point system. He kept saying you CAN do this, you CAN do that, you CAN do everything with the new point system, but never even mentioned how much it's gonna cost. I believe he is trying to give us wrong impression that all these vacations we CAN do is all included with our existing ownership.
> 
> ...






There's no question about it that this program does not work for everyone....




.


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## LUVourMarriotts (Dec 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> My guess is that they are trying to maximize revenue - start as high as possible to capture whoever is willing to pay $2000 and then lower prices over time to increase enrollment by capturing the more price sensitive (or people who benefit less from the DC) customers. Ultimately enrollment prices should be influenced by the realities of the market and what most others charge (i.e., "free").



I don't know. Don't you think the owners that did join the program at the current prices would be pretty pissed if the prices dropped later on?  I certainly would be if that happened to me.  I think they'll handle it like Toll Brothers has been handling their home sales (at least around me).  Instead of dropping the price because the market has dropped, throw all kinds of fancy incentives at the buyer.


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## Nickfromct (Dec 29, 2010)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> There's no question about it that this program does not work for everyone....
> .



The poll on top of the message board says it all: 

38% For
47% Against
15% Undecided. 

A very mixed picture.


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## Cobra1950 (Dec 29, 2010)

We are staying at Summittwatch this week enjoying the blizzards (there have been several).  Was invited to a points session, but declined with pretty much a rendition of what was said by others earlier in the blog.  Expressed sympathy to the lady offering it but told her I was no longer interested in doing business with Marriott due to bad business practices on their part involving this program.
     Also advised since Marriott thought so little of my purchase of 3 weeks from them in the past and I have yet to be notified by them of their recent abandonment of their customer base, we really had nothing to talk about, and invited her to advise Marriott Corporate to contact me if anyone wanted to discuss it further.


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## DanCali (Dec 29, 2010)

LUVourMarriotts said:


> I don't know. Don't you think the owners that did join the program at the current prices would be pretty pissed if the prices dropped later on?  I certainly would be if that happened to me.  I think they'll handle it like Toll Brothers has been handling their home sales (at least around me).  Instead of dropping the price because the market has dropped, throw all kinds of fancy incentives at the buyer.



Is someone buying an iPad v1 pissed off when someone buys an iPad v3 two years later for less? It the nature of adopting early - you get to "enjoy" the product for a longer period and pay a higher price...

I don't think not pissing off owners if high on Marriott's priority list. If it was, this exchange system would never have seen the light of day... It didn't bother Marriott much when they sold weeks at 25% off and EOY at 60% off the annual price not too long ago. Were the people who bought at higher prices 10 days earlier pissed off - I'm sure they were. Did it matter to Marriott much? Did anyone else care? I didn't see it make the New York Times...

This is an exchange system, not deeded real estate. They cannot raise enrollment prices just because "prices always go up"... The enrollment prices are already much much higher than any other exchange company, and I doubt anyone will raise prices to match Marriott. If a single week owner didn't see the point of joining for $1500, they certainly won't pay $2000...

In Econ 101 you learn that demand curves slope down. To maximize revenue this is exactly what they need to do. No point is starting at $200 if many people will pay $2000... start at $2000 to capture the people willing to part with that amount, and then lower prices gradually to capture all the others. In the end, enrollment can be free because $160-$200 a year from every enrolled owner is still very profitable to Marriott (you pay the fee even if you use your week...)

I do agree that enrollment price reductions don't necessarily have to be "official". But if, for example, twice a year they have a 50% off 30-day sale, that's effectively lowering the price...


----------



## wof45 (Dec 29, 2010)

it is relaxing to have a tirade, but I believe we all know that most of what was said is not how the DC club works.

Maybe it works for you, or it doesn't work for you, but it doesn't do a lot of good to be upset about things that are not true.

If I had one week, I probably would not join.  If I had multiple weeks and stayed there, I probably would not join.  Some people like their trades with II.  We do fine with II for shoulder weeks, but usually don't get the prime time week and resort that we want using II.  Maybe, we will be able to book the February resort and week we want with DC.  With 5 weeks, we certainly can save on fees, regardless if we actually turn weeks into DC points in the future.

We all like different things.


----------



## capjak (Dec 29, 2010)

Nickfromct said:


> The poll on top of the message board says it all:
> 
> 38% For
> 47% Against
> ...



I would expect that non tuggers convert at a higher rate and that the program will get better as more and more convert.


----------



## kjd (Dec 29, 2010)

If Marriott is not careful here they will be creating a ton of ill will from the legacy owners.  I realize that some of them are either uninformed or mis-informed but the fact remains that legacy owners are the best prospects for new business.  

Proman is exactly right about the sales presentation.  It was billed as answering questions session but started as a sales pitch for the premium points package.  They wouldn't let go of it despite my several questions and my statement that additional upgrades were out of the question.  They kept referring to the exotic vacations owners can take with the special tours.  They figure that you'll be salivating over the trips to Africa or India.  It should be a concern to all of us about the rule changes they may have in store.


----------



## DanCali (Dec 29, 2010)

capjak said:


> I would expect that non tuggers convert at a higher rate and that the program will get better as more and more convert.



Can you elaborate why?

Personally, I am not sure that is the case. It seems that most single week owners don't see much benefit in joining. Excluding undecided people, among single week owners, 78% are not joining and only 22% have joined (multiple week owners it's a 48%/52% split in favor of the joiners).

To the extent the Tug population has more multi-week owners than the general Marriott owners population (and I don't know if it true, but it may be), one can make an opposite argument to yours...


----------



## Big Matt (Dec 29, 2010)

I agree with your points here.

I also am totally amazed at every resort I vist at how many people return to their home resort every year.  This is in Hilton Head, Williamsburg, Newport Coast, Orlando, etc. 

I have three very close friends who all bought one or more Marriott weeks (Myrtle Beach, HHI, and Orlando).  All of them go to their home resort each year and take extended family.  One of them is actually upset that Marriott keeps bothering him with this points program.  He doesn't like it and finds their marketing to be too aggressive.  Needless to say, these friends think I'm nuts for trading mine all the time.

People like this are never going to join because it doesn't make sense.  The program wasn't made with them in mind.  My gut tells me that there are a LOT of these type owners out there, but not many like this on TUG.



DanCali said:


> Can you elaborate why?
> 
> Personally, I am not sure that is the case. It seems that most single week owners don't see much benefit in joining. Excluding undecided people, among single week owners, 78% are not joining and only 22% have joined (multiple week owners it's a 48%/52% split in favor of the joiners).
> 
> To the extent the Tug population has more multi-week owners than the general Marriott owners population (and I don't know if it true, but it may be), one can make an opposite argument to yours...


----------



## csalter2 (Dec 29, 2010)

*I sit and I read...*

I sit and I read these posts and I always find them so entertaining. It is amazing how people get so worked up over very little. Many of you have multiple weeks of Marriott that you bought resale. Many of you have been very, very happy with how many ever weeks you have. Then Marriott adds an option that you don't have to take and you have had a hissy fit ever since June 20, 2010. 

I just don't understand. The rules have changed a little and those of you who have been getting more than you bought are now upset. You bought desert property but now can only go to the desert, but you are so used to having beachfront for your desert prices you are upset. Those of you who choose to go to other resorts with a two bedroom using only your one bedroom or studio now have to probably only choose like for like. Gee, now you are being asked to honor that.  

I believe that we should be happy for any extras we can maneuver, but no one in Marriott is preventing us from enjoying what we paid for initially. We paid to be able to stay at a particular resort during a particular season in a specific room type. We were given opportunities to exchange using II.  *NONE OF THAT HAS CHANGED.*

As a legacy owner all we have to do is keep what we have. There is no skim if you stay at your resort. You can still go to Hawaii using II. Will you be able to stay at a Marriott? Maybe or maybe not. It was never a guarantee in the first place. So you may stay with another company's timeshare, but that's what you paid for.  

If I were a multiple week resale owner, I would be happy I could join and keep my mouth shut. You are going to have a good deal. Regardless of what anyone thinks, those MRP's are still a good deal when you really can't go anywhere for a bit and placing your timeshare in II limits you to 2 years. MRP give you some additional flexibility. They are still good at nice hotes in Europe. Yes, they are devalued, but last I checked my dollar is very devalued in Europe. I still used my MRP's to stay at resorts in Paris and London. I made out like a bandit with my devalued MRPs. In addition, you have still paid a whole lot less than those who bought at developers prices and you will be able to save on fees. 

I own one scrawny little week. I love it when I go. I don't go every year right now. I go every other year. I have decided to join the DC program because it offers extra options and I can save on fees even with one week. I may not use the option, but I may let my kids use it and they can take advantage of whatever option that may be associated with the membership. Who knows! My week at Ko Olina  is valuable to me. I may use it for an AC or give it to a family member to use. I could not tell you, but in my opinion I believe that some of you are being very, very unreasonable. 

Marriott rolled this program out poorly, but in my opinion the only people who will not get as much are those who are new and buy the new points program. Legacy owners are fine and have not been cheated. What is happening is your are being held a little closer to your initial contract. You are being held accountable for what you purchased and some of us don't like it. I liken it to getting caught by the IRS for cheating on your taxes. You were able to get away with claiming this and that, but an audit discovers you were taking more than you were supposed to and now you cannot do it anymore. Do you blame the IRS for that. Their rules were clear from the beginning, you took advantage of it but now you can't. Is that their fault for that? No. 

I will say this again. Let's see how the new points system works. I have read that for many people it is working great and they are saving money and getting the exchanges they desire. If you don't want to join, that's fine too. Go ahead and reserve like you always have. I looked online and noticed that I could still book reservations like I did before. There was nothing different. 

Now those of you with a summer week in Palm Desert and you want to go to Hawaii in the summer, well you won't be staying at a Marriott or for that matter a Westin, Hyatt or Hilton without some luck. However, there are always some places in Hawaii somewhere. You may find that there are some new places that you find to be great and can share them with us on TUG. I read the TUG reviews and there are lots of places in Hawaii that have not been reported on. 

Just relax. Things will work out.


----------



## Bill4728 (Dec 29, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Personally, I am not sure that is the case. It seems that most single week owners don't see much benefit in joining. Excluding undecided people, among single week owners, 78% are not joining and only 22% have joined (multiple week owners it's a 48%/52% split in favor of the joiners).
> 
> To the extent the Tug population has more multi-week owners than the general Marriott owners population (and I don't know if it true, but it may be), one can make an opposite argument to yours...


As a single week marriott owner (have 4 TS in other systems) I don't see the value in joining.


----------



## csalter2 (Dec 29, 2010)

*No need to be upset*



Big Matt said:


> I agree with your points here.
> 
> I also am totally amazed at every resort I vist at how many people return to their home resort every year.  This is in Hilton Head, Williamsburg, Newport Coast, Orlando, etc.
> 
> ...



I see the oldtimers at resorts like the ones you describe Big Matt.  I wouldn't join if I had that outlook either. This program is "no skin off their nose" with Marriott rolling out this program. It doesn't cost them anything so they keep their money in their pockets and move on business as usual. No sweat. No need to be upset. Just so, "No."


----------



## Fredm (Dec 29, 2010)

csalter2 said:


> I sit and I read these posts and I always find them so entertaining. It is amazing how people get so worked up over very little. Many of you have multiple weeks of Marriott that you bought resale. Many of you have been very, very happy with how many ever weeks you have. Then Marriott adds an option that you don't have to take and you have had a hissy fit ever since June 20, 2010.
> 
> Just relax. Things will work out.



Excellent post!


----------



## taffy19 (Dec 29, 2010)

I wonder who Marriott is sending these emails to because we didn't get one and I just checked my SPAM email box too.  I also looked by subject.  

We are a single week owner of a fixed week/unit on Maui that we bought from the Marriott direct.  Are there others who only own one week and didn't get the email either or has it to do with fixed?

We haven't been on a presentation yet but we talked to the Sales Department at the NCVs but we never introduced ourselves.  We just asked some general questions that the salesman couldn't answer so he called his Sales Manager to take over.

I received an email from II this morning offering bonus weeks for our two independent timeshare resorts but not for the Marriott.  Has that changed too for next year?


----------



## Cathyb (Dec 29, 2010)

*Emmy*



iconnections said:


> I wonder who Marriott is sending these emails to because we didn't get one and I just checked my SPAM email box too.  I also looked by subject.
> 
> We are a single week owner of a fixed week/unit on Maui that we bought from the Marriott direct.  Are there others who only own one week and didn't get the email either or has it to do with fixed?
> 
> ...



Emmy:  We own EY DSV and EOY Newport and did not receive any emails.  Do you suppose it is East Coast oriented???


----------



## csalter2 (Dec 29, 2010)

iconnections said:


> I wonder who Marriott is sending these emails to because we didn't get one and I just checked my SPAM email box too.  I also looked by subject.
> 
> We are a single week owner of a fixed week/unit on Maui that we bought from the Marriott direct.  Are there others who only own one week and didn't get the email either or has it to do with fixed?
> 
> ...



I only own one Marriott week and have received the emails. You are not the only one who has not been receiving the emails. Others have stated this as well. I would check with Marriott to make sure they have your correct email address on file.


----------



## dioxide45 (Dec 29, 2010)

csalter2 said:


> I sit and I read these posts and I always find them so entertaining. It is amazing how people get so worked up over very little. Many of you have multiple weeks of Marriott that you bought resale. Many of you have been very, very happy with how many ever weeks you have. Then Marriott adds an option that you don't have to take and you have had a hissy fit ever since June 20, 2010.
> 
> I just don't understand. The rules have changed a little and those of you who have been getting more than you bought are now upset.



It seems that you may be more upset at those who in your opinion "took advantage" than those that are upset about DC.



> You bought desert property but now can only go to the desert, but you are so used to having beach front for your desert prices you are upset. Those of you who choose to go to other resorts with a two bedroom using only your one bedroom or studio now have to probably only choose like for like. Gee, now you are being asked to honor that.


 IMO II has been in the exchange business for ~30 years, Marriott has been in it for oh 6 months. I think II has more knowledge of what is a like for like exchange (whether that be a summer desert to winter beach, or Orlando to HI). Marriott will end up with a glut of (point) expensilve inventory. That is good for everyone isn't it? They can rent it for cash.



> I believe that we should be happy for any extras we can maneuver, but no one in Marriott is preventing us from enjoying what we paid for initially. We paid to be able to stay at a particular resort during a particular season in a specific room type. We were given opportunities to exchange using II.  *NONE OF THAT HAS CHANGED.*
> 
> As a legacy owner all we have to do is keep what we have. There is no skim if you stay at your resort. You can still go to Hawaii using II. Will you be able to stay at a Marriott? Maybe or maybe not. It was never a guarantee in the first place. So you may stay with another company's timeshare, but that's what you paid for.


 It seems like keeping those low life desert owners will make the big time owners happier?




> If I were a multiple week resale owner, I would be happy I could join and keep my mouth shut. You are going to have a good deal. Regardless of what anyone thinks, those MRP's are still a good deal when you really can't go anywhere for a bit and placing your timeshare in II limits you to 2 years. MRP give you some additional flexibility. They are still good at nice hotes in Europe. Yes, they are devalued, but last I checked my dollar is very devalued in Europe. I still used my MRP's to stay at resorts in Paris and London. I made out like a bandit with my devalued MRPs. In addition, you have still paid a whole lot less than those who bought at developers prices and you will be able to save on fees.



Sure they were devalued as hotel prices went up, makes sense. But when prices went down they didn't revalue them. At last check the dollar was doing better compared to the euro than a few years ago.



> I own one scrawny little week. I love it when I go. I don't go every year right now. I go every other year. I have decided to join the DC program because it offers extra options and I can save on fees even with one week. I may not use the option, but I may let my kids use it and they can take advantage of whatever option that may be associated with the membership. Who knows! My week at Ko Olina  is valuable to me. I may use it for an AC or give it to a family member to use. I could not tell you, but in my opinion I believe that some of you are being very, very unreasonable.
> 
> Marriott rolled this program out poorly, but in my opinion the only people who will not get as much are those who are new and buy the new points program. Legacy owners are fine and have not been cheated. What is happening is your are being held a little closer to your initial contract. You are being held accountable for what you purchased and some of us don't like it. I liken it to getting caught by the IRS for cheating on your taxes. You were able to get away with claiming this and that, but an audit discovers you were taking more than you were supposed to and now you cannot do it anymore. Do you blame the IRS for that. Their rules were clear from the beginning, you took advantage of it but now you can't. Is that their fault for that? No.
> 
> ...



You know this for a fact? You are still hung up on those that in your opinion are "trading up". Why does thos bother you so much?



> However, there are always some places in Hawaii somewhere. You may find that there are some new places that you find to be great and can share them with us on TUG. I read the TUG reviews and there are lots of places in Hawaii that have not been reported on.
> 
> Just relax. Things will work out.


----------



## thinze3 (Dec 29, 2010)

iconnections said:


> I wonder who Marriott is sending these emails to because we didn't get one and I just checked my SPAM email box too.  I also looked by subject.
> 
> We are a single week owner of a fixed week/unit on Maui that we bought from the Marriott direct.  Are there others who only own one week and didn't get the email either or has it to do with fixed?
> 
> ...




Emmy, I have received all the emails from Marriott, and I received one from II this morning offering a bonus week for my 2011 Waiohai week.

Cathy, I AM NOT east coast. LOL


----------



## Stefa (Dec 29, 2010)

iconnections said:


> I wonder who Marriott is sending these emails to because we didn't get one and I just checked my SPAM email box too.  I also looked by subject.



No emails for me either, but I did receive two snail mailings.


----------



## dioxide45 (Dec 29, 2010)

thinze3 said:


> Emmy, I have received all the emails from Marriott, and I received one from II this morning offering a bonus week for my 2011 Waiohai week.
> 
> Cathy, I AM NOT east coast. LOL



We got an email too, but nothing shows as eligible when checking on II. Also all of our 2011 weeks have already been deposited.


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## csalter2 (Dec 29, 2010)

*Please Don't Misunderstand Me*

Dioxide45, 

I have no problem with people trading up if that's what they could do, more power to them. My point is that Marriott has not screwed anyone, and that you still have what you bought. What's the problem? It's just that simple. Why are people complaining when the have what they paid for?


----------



## dioxide45 (Dec 29, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Excellent post!



So as the jabs go back and forth, they are worthy of applause?


----------



## David10225 (Dec 29, 2010)

I may not understand the program as other do, but as a single week owner, I know I can still get a week in the platinum season I own, but I'm concerned now about competing against those points owners who can now book at 13 months vs 12 months for me.  I also wonder if I have to compete against Marriott.  I don't want to be relegated to the shoulder of the platinum season.  That's my only worry..


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## csalter2 (Dec 29, 2010)

*Like For Like Exchanges*

Dioxide45,

For the record, Marriott is only in the exchange business for their properties only. I believe they would know a like for like exchange for their own properties better than II. Marriott does manage their properties and they did build them too. I also would think it difficult to believe that Marriott was ever totally hands off with II as it came to the way in which their properties were exchanged. I am sure they had some level of involvement and/or input at all times.


----------



## dioxide45 (Dec 29, 2010)

csalter2 said:


> Dioxide45,
> 
> I have no problem with people trading up if that's what they could do, more power to them. My point is that Marriott has not screwed anyone, and that you still have what you bought. What's the problem? It's just that simple. Why are people complaining when the have what they paid for?



So if Marriott made the decision to not allow any exchanges at all, it would be okay? Owners would still be giving people what they paid for. 25 years of precedent and they decide to change on a single day in June to better their sales. They are free to do this, but it doesn't mean we have to like it or keep quiet about it.

I do feel that there are many people among us here that take great pleasure when they see the threads about II exchanging difficulties and that Marriott has "leveled the playing field."


----------



## csalter2 (Dec 29, 2010)

*Being a little responsible*



dioxide45 said:


> So if Marriott made the decision to not allow any exchanges at all, it would be okay? Owners would still be giving people what they paid for. 25 years of precedent and they decide to change on a single day in June to better their sales. They are free to do this, but it doesn't mean we have to like it or keep quiet about it.
> 
> I do feel that there are many people among us here that take great pleasure when they see the threads about II exchanging difficulties and that Marriott has "leveled the playing field."



Again, 

You bought a unit. You can rent it, stay in it, exchange it on your own, etc for your week. You can go during the season you bought. Whatever you paid for you can get. If in fact Marriott did that and that's what you signed for then yes, it would be fine. Would I like it? No, but if that is what I paid and signed that they could change the rules that way then fine. 

We have a very, very entitled and spoiled group of individuals in our great country. We don't like to honor our obligations which is why our country is in the midst of this economic crisis with people buying homes way out of their pay grade. Sign your name and take responsibility for it. You have a week to have an attorney read it even if you get sucked in during a sales presentation. For those who bought resale, they had plenty of time to do their homework before buying.  

There is absolutely no anger on my part nor am I upset. Why would I be? I am happy that I have a place to stay and I can travel. This is a luxury that many people cannot and are not able to do. When will we be thankful for what we have. I am from NYC so I am not saying we should be naive fools, but I do believe we should remain calm and be diligent.


----------



## dioxide45 (Dec 29, 2010)

csalter2 said:


> Again,
> 
> You bought a unit. You can rent it, stay in it, exchange it on your own, etc for your week. You can go during the season you bought. Whatever you paid for you can get. If in fact Marriott did that and that's what you signed for then yes, it would be fine. Would I like it? No, but if that is what I paid and signed that they could change the rules that way then fine.
> .



So as it seems with this change there are people that don't like it, just like you wouldn't like the change I proposed. There isn't any thing wrong with people discussing their issues with the new program. It doesn't make them bad people.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler (Dec 29, 2010)

*Where's the Beef?*



csalter2 said:


> Dioxide45,
> 
> I have no problem with people trading up if that's what they could do, more power to them. My point is that Marriott has not screwed anyone, and that you still have what you bought. What's the problem? It's just that simple. Why are people complaining when the have what they paid for?






I think the underlying beef with this new Destinations Program is that if you do join you can no longer exchange your week for a "trade up" that was commonly offered when using Interval International.

Those with 2 Bedroom Lockoffs can no longer lock off and get those juicy multiple trades thru Interval, and this is why that the program may not be ideal for some.

If you always use your week at your home resort, then it really doesn't matter whether you join or not.

As I see it, the one big advantage to the Destination Club is that you can potentially confirm your reservations as much as  12 or 13 months out, and make your plans based upon an early confirmed reservation.

Love it or hate it, each to his/her own as to the benefits as to staying with Interval, or jumping over to the Destinations Club.



.


----------



## ondeadlin (Dec 29, 2010)

It's a little disingenuous to suggest that Marriott just sold weeks, and that since you still can occupy that week, you've lost nothing.

Marriott sold a way of vacationing. It sold the idea that your week wasn't just the opportunity to occupy, but the opportunity to go anywhere within the Marriott system. It pushed the flexibility and advantages of that system at every developer sales pitch.

Come on, we've all heard it. The joys of Hawaii and Park City were certainly touted just as much as the strengths of whatever Orlando property they were trying to sell.

So I think it's very, very understandable that people are mad that Marriott has essentially junked the old system and created a new and "better" (for Marriott) way of vacationing. That's not to say there's anything wrong with that Marriott did - there really isn't. They're a company. They've made a business decision.

But business decisions can certainly cost you customer loyalty, and I think that's what we're seeing here. And I think both the points-advocates and the points critics could do a better job of acknowledging that Marriott is neither saintly nor an evil-doer.


----------



## DanCali (Dec 29, 2010)

csalter2 said:


> Dioxide45,
> 
> For the record, Marriott is only in the exchange business for their properties only. I believe they would know a like for like exchange for their own properties better than II.



What Marriott observes is demand for its properties from people looking to book them as hotels on Marriott.com. They may get to see the supply of deposits in II since they process the reservations.

What II observes is demand (not just from marriott owners) and supply for Marriott timeshares. I think II gets the better picture.

But even if we suppose that Marriott knows "like for like" exchanges best, as you suggest, are you simply ignoring the fact that in the DC nobody can do a like for like exchange due to the skim? If everyone gets less than the average points in their season then everyone is getting shortchanged on trading value...


----------



## taffy19 (Dec 29, 2010)

I don't mind at all that people learn how to use the system to their advantage or buy at a big discount as that is the smart thing to do. I would do it too today if I were in the market for more weeks or exchange more often. It is a lot of work so it better pays off for the effort it takes but it is a game for some.  

TUG members have done a lot of people a big favor by educating them so freely as they could have kept it very quiet too so there would be more for them. I'll bet that the Marriott doesn't like it but most people read this forum after they have bought so the Marriott is getting their share anyway. 

Lucky are the people who come here first and then go on a timeshare presentation as they know already how to buy at a big discount.  For others, it was still advantageous to buy from the Marriot direct, if they bought early at a new project or got great incentives (many, many MRPs). That has been proven too as some took very luxurious vacations or sold for a profit.

I don't believe that this will happen in points but renting and borrowing them, etc. may give smart TUGgers another game to play successfully and they may share that too. Some are already so TUG members will have the edge again.


----------



## Michigan Czar (Dec 29, 2010)

iconnections said:


> I wonder who Marriott is sending these emails to because we didn't get one and I just checked my SPAM email box too.  I also looked by subject.
> 
> We are a single week owner of a fixed week/unit on Maui that we bought from the Marriott direct.  Are there others who only own one week and didn't get the email either or has it to do with fixed?



I own a floating week at MMO, I haven't received the emails either.


----------



## pwrshift (Dec 29, 2010)

Only emails I got was from II offering a bonus week for any 2011 Marriott week I turn into them before January 15th

Brian


----------



## scpoidog (Dec 29, 2010)

*I agree*



csalter2 said:


> I sit and I read these posts and I always find them so entertaining. It is amazing how people get so worked up over very little. Many of you have multiple weeks of Marriott that you bought resale. Many of you have been very, very happy with how many ever weeks you have. Then Marriott adds an option that you don't have to take and you have had a hissy fit ever since June 20, 2010.
> 
> I just don't understand. The rules have changed a little and those of you who have been getting more than you bought are now upset. You bought desert property but now can only go to the desert, but you are so used to having beachfront for your desert prices you are upset. Those of you who choose to go to other resorts with a two bedroom using only your one bedroom or studio now have to probably only choose like for like. Gee, now you are being asked to honor that.
> 
> ...



Great post. I think the program works for some and doesn't work for others.   You can't please everyone.


----------



## kjd (Dec 30, 2010)

Frankly speaking about the csalter2 post I'm sure it's well meaning but it goes too far.  While I would agree with many of the concepts contained in the post, I believe that a comparison of "up-trading" to someone cheating on their taxes (which is an illegal act) is out of line.  During the era of the lockoff the Marriott sales reps emphasized the advantage of up-trading as a reason for purchasing.  We were never told that we were cheating the system or that we were receiving something we were not entitled to.

Since the era of the lockoff has passed with the coming of the new system legacy owners are now faced with the possible reduction of an important benefit.  Of course they would complain about it given the statements reported here that sales people have said "those days are gone forever". That all trades will be "like for like".  Looking at II inventory there are some up-trades that can still be made.  Until we go through at least one cycle of II deposits it is difficult to judge how much we will be affected, if at all.  If the effect is minimal, great!  If not, then Marriott will have made a large part of their customer base very unhappy.


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## csalter2 (Dec 30, 2010)

*You verified my post*



kjd said:


> Frankly speaking about the csalter2 post I'm sure it's well meaning but it goes too far.  While I would agree with many of the concepts contained in the post, I believe that a comparison of "up-trading" to someone cheating on their taxes (which is an illegal act) is out of line.  During the era of the lockoff the Marriott sales reps emphasized the advantage of up-trading as a reason for purchasing.  We were never told that we were cheating the system or that we were receiving something we were not entitled to.
> 
> Since the era of the lockoff has passed with the coming of the new system legacy owners are now faced with the possible reduction of an important benefit.  Of course they would complain about it given the statements reported here that sales people have said "those days are gone forever". That all trades will be "like for like".  Looking at II inventory there are some up-trades that can still be made.  Until we go through at least one cycle of II deposits it is difficult to judge how much we will be affected, if at all.  If the effect is minimal, great!  If not, then Marriott will have made a large part of their customer base very unhappy.



Let me use another analogy. Let's look at handchecking in basketball or the new rules in football regarding tackles. You can still check someone in the NBA but no hands you can still hit in football but with a little more caution as to where you can hit.  The rules have changed a bit but the objective is the same.  

In fact you have proven my point in the post. You can still do uptrading, the only thing is that II may have to give you an opportunity with another company other than Marriott.  Again, if you are a legacy owner you still have what you always have had.


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## wof45 (Dec 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> What Marriott observes is demand for its properties from people looking to book them as hotels on Marriott.com. They may get to see the supply of deposits in II since they process the reservations.
> 
> What II observes is demand (not just from marriott owners) and supply for Marriott timeshares. I think II gets the better picture.
> 
> But even if we suppose that Marriott knows "like for like" exchanges best, as you suggest, are you simply ignoring the fact that in the DC nobody can do a like for like exchange due to the skim? If everyone gets less than the average points in their season then everyone is getting shortchanged on trading value...



the problem with this idea is that if you are a legacy owner, you can still trade through II.  If you are a trust owner, there is no skim because you own points to spend rather than a week in a season.


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## wof45 (Dec 30, 2010)

David10225 said:


> I may not understand the program as other do, but as a single week owner, I know I can still get a week in the platinum season I own, but I'm concerned now about competing against those points owners who can now book at 13 months vs 12 months for me.  I also wonder if I have to compete against Marriott.  I don't want to be relegated to the shoulder of the platinum season.  That's my only worry..



this worry is probably not reality.

Marriott has always released no more than 50% of weeks at 13 months for multiple weeks and the remaining 50% at 12 months, so there is nothing new here with DC points.

For legacy properties, it should be as hard for an in-advance points purchase as it has been for a weeks trade.  First, a legacy owner must reserve a week and deposit it, or convert a week to DC points or to MR points, or there is nothing to use points or to trade for.


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## m61376 (Dec 30, 2010)

David10225 said:


> I may not understand the program as other do, but as a single week owner, I know I can still get a week in the platinum season I own, but I'm concerned now about competing against those points owners who can now book at 13 months vs 12 months for me.  I also wonder if I have to compete against Marriott.  I don't want to be relegated to the shoulder of the platinum season.  That's my only worry..


Marriott has assured owners that each owner category will have access to their proportionate share of ownership for each available reservation, so that point owners will, in essence, oncly be competing against other point owners. If 75% of the owners are reserving weeks and not using points, for example, in any given season, then 75% of each reservation date will be available for week owner reservations, with half of those at the 13 month mark and at least half at the 12 month mark.


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## GreenEyedGuru (Dec 30, 2010)

csalter2 said:


> I own one scrawny little week. I love it when I go. I don't go every year right now. I go every other year. I have decided to join the DC program because it offers extra options and I can save on fees even with one week. I may not use the option, but I may let my kids use it and they can take advantage of whatever option that may be associated with the membership. Who knows! My week at Ko Olina  is valuable to me. I may use it for an AC or give it to a family member to use. I could not tell you, but in my opinion I believe that some of you are being very, very unreasonable.



I own a single week like you and I fail to see how you are saving money with this program unless you were trading with II or locking off every year.

My problems with this system are the following:

- The graft (loss of points which makes like-for-like exchanges impossible)
- The loss of voting rights.
- The increase in yearly fees I would incur as someone who rarely exchanges or utilizes lockoff.
- Marriott is free to depreciate or devalue points whenever they see fit.
- The enormous fee Marriott wants to enroll my week in the program.  My week is in high demand, so I see no reason to pay them a dime to enroll it, even if all of the above was fixed.

Maybe instead of bashing other owners for their criticisms, you could explain what is so attractive about this program to you.


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## csalter2 (Dec 30, 2010)

*Not Bashing*



GreenEyedGuru said:


> I own a single week like you and I fail to see how you are saving money with this program unless you were trading with II or locking off every year.
> 
> My problems with this system are the following:
> 
> ...



I am not bashing, but have a lack of understanding of the paranoia. You have what you paid for so where is the problem? 

The DC program does pay for your II membership, exchange fees with other Marriotts, and locking off as well as exchanging to MRP's. I do all of those. Yes, there is savings for me when I do them. I don't have kids at home anymore so I don't always need a large 2 bedroom lockoff so I can use less points and go somewhere else if I want to stay at Marriott timeshare. I can then use points for someplace else.  If I want to stay at my own resort, I don't have to worry about using points I just make my reservation like I always have. Thus, the "skim" does not mean anything to me. When we exchanged into Marriotts or any other property with II we pay $149 for the exchange. With the new points system, you only pay if you use none Marriotts.

Please, I am not bashing anyone. I see the program as another option. You don't have to go into it if you don't think it's for you but it's not bad. Your annual fee can be cost effective and you have more options for your personal situation and it varies from family to family. Marriott has not taken anything from anyone. Yes, they are a business but those of us who have been with Marriott have a clear advantage over those who will be strictly point owners.  You can still exchange through II like you always have, but now your chances of getting into Marriotts may diminish a bit.


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## DanCali (Dec 30, 2010)

wof45 said:


> the problem with this idea is that if you are a legacy owner, you can still trade through II.  If you are a trust owner, there is no skim because you own points to spend rather than a week in a season.



There is no problem with what I wrote...

Trust owners don't get skimmed but most (if not all) people on this board are weeks owners. A select few may be both weeks and trust owners. So the skim applies to all those enrolled...

Second, I was responding to Carlito who said that the DC offers "like for like" trades and Marriott knows best when it comes to "like for like". In reality the DC doesn't offer like for like trades. It offers only downtrades to everyone who trades through it due to the skim. Like for like would be if you got the fair trading value for your week... (average points of your season)


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## DanCali (Dec 30, 2010)

csalter2 said:


> You can still do uptrading, the only thing is that II may have to give you an opportunity with another company other than Marriott.



Thats not necessarily as simple as you make it sound. The success of uptrading (in size) is highly dependent on Marriott preference. Most Marriott weeks would likely never make it past ongoing searches (like for like in size) if there was no Marriott preference and anyone could grab them when they were deposited. 

Similarly, a Marriott week (especially a studio) has no advantage relative to non-Marriott weeks when it comes to uptrading. Starwood owners will still do all the uptrading to the Westin Maui and Princeville 2BR weeks because of Starwood preference.

There may be opportunities to trade up in size to second or third tier resorts but is that really "trading up"???


----------



## csalter2 (Dec 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Thats not necessarily as simple as you make it sound. The success of uptrading (in size) is highly dependent on Marriott preference. Most Marriott weeks would likely never make it past ongoing searches (like for like in size) if there was no Marriott preference and anyone could grab them when they were deposited.
> 
> Similarly, a Marriott week (especially a studio) has no advantage relative to non-Marriott weeks when it comes to uptrading. Starwood owners will still do all the uptrading to the Westin Maui and Princeville 2BR weeks because of Starwood preference.
> 
> There may be opportunities to trade up in size to second or third tier resorts but is that really "trading up"???



That has not changed. Marriott owners get an advantage for Marriotts over other timeshare owners for a period of about 24 days with II, correct? If they were not available, you could still have been in a lower tiered property. There are several places where there are not Marriott timeshares. I really think we should start figuring out new opportunities through II that may be viable and of good quality. I am going to look into SFX. We could start communicating with one another and trade amongst ourselves too.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 30, 2010)

scpoidog said:


> Great post. I think the program works for some and doesn't work for others.   You can't please everyone.



The problem is that it seems to work for so few people. Instead of developing a point system that appealed to 80% of owners, they developed one that appealed to 20%. If you disagree with these numbers, check enrollment rates. They sure haven't gone over 20% and likely won't any time soon.


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## wof45 (Dec 30, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that it seems to work for so few people. Instead of developing a point system that appealed to 80% of owners, they developed one that appealed to 20%. If you disagree with these numbers, check enrollment rates. They sure haven't gone over 20% and likely won't any time soon.



what additions to the points system do you think would make it appeal to 80% of owners?


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## Bunk (Dec 30, 2010)

Shifting the focus for a second, does anyone think it makes sense for anyone to buy into this program as a new owner.  Is there any reason you can think of to suggest to friends or family that they should consider buying as a new owner.  I've told my friends that this new system makes no sense due to high cost, high maintenance, inability to sell, and the likelihood based on past performance that at some time Marriott will devalue their interest in the program.

Have I been too harsh?

How is Marriott doing in trying to sell this program to non Marriott owners.


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## Fredm (Dec 30, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> So as the jabs go back and forth, they are worthy of applause?



No applause for the back and forth jabs. Just the post I quoted.

This 7 month rant over a voluntary option is the most over-the-top discussion I have ever witnessed on TUG.


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## ilene13 (Dec 30, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Maybe they just wrote me off completely after I filled the last DC program survey...



I did not receive an email.  I own 4 developer weeks!!!


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## puckmanfl (Dec 30, 2010)

Good morning

Wof

I think that even Dan would agree if we do the following  two modifications the program might appeal to 80% of legacy owners..

#1 reduce the entry fee, especially the $1445/$1995 for resale owners...

#2 whack out the "skim".  I have not yet heard an acceptable explanation for it, makes mvcd look lile "bookies" with the vig.  Reminds me of the line from "Trading Places" when the Duke brothers explained to Valentine, that regardless of the prices of the "pork bellies" Duke and DUKE ALWAYS MAKE A PROFIT.  VALENTINE REPLIED..."YOU GUYS ARE JUST A COUPLE OF BOOKIES".  Randolph replied.. "I new he would understand"....

Happy New year


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## ilene13 (Dec 30, 2010)

We are currently at the Aruba Ocean Club, the majority of the owners to whom I have spoken to are NOT joining.  The few that have joined have done so to save on fees.  We attended a presentation and our sales representative, whom we have known for years, said only about 10% of the total owners (not just AOC) have joined.  He did not pressure us and he said if it does not save you on the fees, do not bother.  My question for him was that Marriott is now saying through the "World Traveler" part you can use DP for any property in the II book.  How can that be and how are they getting the inventory?  He did not have an answer but he aknowledged that it was a good question.  As I have said before, we are not enrolling!


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## GregT (Dec 30, 2010)

One good thing to come from this thread is that we've had brief appearances from BocaBum99 and Tombo.

We haven't seen those guys here on the Marriott board in months!!   

Welcome back guys!!  



*Roll Tide Roll*!


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## puckmanfl (Dec 30, 2010)

good morning...
\
but good ol puck is still lurking!!!!

getting ready for the annual ski trip in Feb.  Park city here I come!!! One unit with II trade, one with DC points...

Happy New Year


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## myhrse11 (Dec 30, 2010)

*Still undecided*

We're multi week owner in HI. The only benefit I can see is my unit at Waiohai is a 2 bedroom no lock off. So the program gives me the option of splitting that unit to use somewhere else. However, the $695 and the skim are turning me off. If Marriott had given just a bit on either, I probably feel it was a no brainer. So, I guess I have to decide to jump today or tomorrow and get the 800 points or debate a while longer.


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## windje2000 (Dec 30, 2010)

Fredm said:


> No applause for the back and forth jabs. Just the post I quoted.
> 
> This 7 month rant over a voluntary option is the most over-the-top discussion I have ever witnessed on TUG.



The nagging issue that keeps this topic bubbling on TUG is prospect that the so-called 'voluntary option' will become the only game in town.  Sales folks spreading FUD about the future dearth of II trading inventory and 'those days are gone' just add fuel to that fire.  

An 'exchange' program that can cost thousands to join, takes a cut of every trade and revalues property long since sold is as well qualified for the 'over the top' moniker as the 'rants' you mention.

As a result, many ponder whether or not they will (at some point) be forced into an exchange system that they perceive has some negative attributes for them.  

The timeshare business has long been populated with less than scrupulous players.  Marriott product was positively differentiated from that segment of the industry.  That's among the reasons people bought it.

Whether or not that differentiation will continue to exist depends . . . on them.


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## Stefa (Dec 30, 2010)

Fredm said:


> This 7 month rant over a voluntary option is the most over-the-top discussion I have ever witnessed on TUG.



I don't know, Fred.  I think the overreaction when Starwood changed their policy on II deposits has this one beat by a long shot.


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## wof45 (Dec 30, 2010)

ilene13 said:


> We are currently at the Aruba Ocean Club, the majority of the owners to whom I have spoken to are NOT joining.  The few that have joined have done so to save on fees.  We attended a presentation and our sales representative, whom we have known for years, said only about 10% of the total owners (not just AOC) have joined.  He did not pressure us and he said if it does not save you on the fees, do not bother.  My question for him was that Marriott is now saying through the "World Traveler" part you can use DP for any property in the II book.  How can that be and how are they getting the inventory?  He did not have an answer but he aknowledged that it was a good question.  As I have said before, we are not enrolling!



I believe this is somewhat confusing.
If you enroll or do not enroll, you can continue to deposit your week into II and trade.

If you are a trust points owner or enroll in DC, you can spend your points on a trade week that is deposited into II and can be traded.  The tricky part is that there is a table of bedrooms and TDI that lets you pick the number of points for what is deposited in order to make a trade.

That means an enrolled owner needs to decide which way to make an II deposit.  I guess the benefit is that if you trade down or trade up outside of flexchange, it might be better to use DC points, but I haven't analyzed the DC points table, since we have always traded into Marriotts which works the old way.

As always, however you get the deposit into II, you can still only access weeks that are deposited by others.


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## DanCali (Dec 30, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> Good morning
> 
> Wof
> 
> ...



"Even Dan?" ? I haven't even been the most vocal one against this exchange system... Unfortunately, some of the ones more vocal than me have (almost) completely stopped posting on this board some time ago. 

But I agree that reducing the entry fee would increase enrollments... at the extreme, at a zero enrollment fee, the only major reasons not to join are if you use your resort more often than not and don't want to pay the annual $199, and not giving up your right to vote as you please. 

Removing the skim would actually entice those enrolled to convert weeks to points. The most cited reason to join on TUG is the "fee savings" and if people still use and trade their weeks via II that doesn't help the DC much (at least not in a way I can see). If the skim was removed, people could at least get "like for like" in the DC, and they may be more likely to use it.

I also think that adding a "request first" feature would encourage more people to convert to points. It takes a lot of trust to give up a prime week reservation and get on a waitlist for a points exchange. If people could keep that week until they were guaranteed an exchange, they be more likely to get on the waitlist to begin with.


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## scpoidog (Dec 30, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> The problem is that it seems to work for so few people. Instead of developing a point system that appealed to 80% of owners, they developed one that appealed to 20%. If you disagree with these numbers, check enrollment rates. They sure haven't gone over 20% and likely won't any time soon.



I agree that the program only appeals to a low percentage (I think 20% is being generous) of the EXISTING LEGACY owners, but we've seen that a lot of Tuggers haven't even received notice about the program, so maybe that will go up in the future.  

I can only speculate how many existing owners were going back to buy from the developer vs. resale.  If that's the case then the new program was never designed for Legacy buyers, as they were buying resale anyways.  As far as Marriott is concerned Legacy buyers are simply a cash flow source from MF's.  The points program is targeting the new breed of vacationer who may not want a whole week and does value the flexibility of the program.  

I have not had the great experiences that many of you have had trading into II, but I did get a great vacation experience (with a little flexibility on my part) using the points program that I would NOT have been able to do under the old system.  I guess I'm in the minority on this.


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## taffy19 (Dec 30, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> The nagging issue that keeps this topic bubbling on TUG is prospect that the so-called 'voluntary option' will become the only game in town. Sales folks spreading FUD about the future dearth of II trading inventory and 'those days are gone' just add fuel to that fire.
> 
> An 'exchange' program that can cost thousands to join, takes a cut of every trade and revalues property long since sold is as well qualified for the 'over the top' moniker as the 'rants' you mention.
> 
> ...


Do I agree with you! What happens if the majority vote goes to the Marriott for most of the present resorts at the HOA meetings and they decide to make it mandatory to join the DCEP or make belonging to II useless for Marriott to Marriott exchanges unless you want to exchange outside the Marriott brand?  Will II have the clout to stay a viable competitor to the Marriott DCEP if the Marriott can call all the shots? 

Fixed week/unit owners do not have to reserve a week with the Marriott so there should be no change in that but making exchanges will depend on what the Marriott and II are going to do in the future. Everything is so uncertain at the moment so that is why people are upset and have a place here to vent their frustration or worry.

I know too that Marriott renewed a long term contract with II but may it be just for doing the work for the Marriott behind the scenes eventually?

Someone posted that we hadn't lost anything but many people bought for making these wonderful exchanges because that is what was presented to them when they went on a sales presentation. These people have a right to complain if that will be more difficult or way too costly. JMHO.


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## csalter2 (Dec 30, 2010)

*Why Join...*

Why join the new Destination Club if you're a legacy owner already? Well, I was just looking at the collections. As legacy owners, we already have access to the Marriott Vacation Club Collection to stay at other Marriotts but the "skim" is an issue. I believe II will be the better way to go for that if it will be available which I think there will be some. The World Collection is just II so we have that. The Marriott Collection, now that's something we can only get by using our MRP's right now. If you can use DC points to stay in hotels for a week for example, in Paris at the Champ Elysses Marriott, that could be a deal. Although you have no kitchen, but there are not many timeshares in some major cities. The Explorer Collection is the only new component that legacy owners don't currently have any access to. If Marriott was able to make some of those safaris and other adventures truly worth the value of your points then that would be the deal breaker. Unfortunately, from my DRI experience the use of points for the types of experiences in the Explorer Collection usually don't equate to the value of your week at a resort. So if Marriott can save fees and make that Explorer Collection truly worthwhile it may have some great value. 

However, I believe that the flexibility does help some as life changes for people. We have to keep in mind that we are always stuck with these timeshares even when we may wish to get rid of them. I have read on these forums where people cannot use them as they once did. Their family size changes, they cannot travel too far, their financial situation changes, etc., etc., etc.  However, you still pay maintenance fees on these timeshares. So wouldn't it be better to take a cruise with all expenses paid if you lived close enough to a port to cruise out of instead of paying the MF's and not being able to get anything but a lost week for your hard earned money.  Airline flights may be costly using your DC points, but if you really were in a financial jam you could use them if necessary. 

I believe that the DC program was not made specifically for legacy owners, but for the new Marriott clientele. They just offered it to us as an option because some of us really could take advantage of it which is a help for them because they need our inventory. We as legacy owners have a lot of freedom with this option. Even as a single week owner, I used to dread thinking about what was I going to do with that extra bedroom when it would be just my wife and I. I did not have that problem with my DRI points because I could go up or down in unit size and stay longer or shorter if I desired. 

Now I must tell you the one thing that concerns DRI members like me is that Marriotts may not be as available to us anymore. I used my DRI points to stay at Marriotts regularly. I have used DRI points to stay at BeachPlace Towers, Grand Vista, Newport Coast and Shadow Ridge all within one year. I may not have that luxury anymore. I may have to stay in a Westin or something.  

Let's see how this plays out, but there are some advantages for us as legacy owners. I believe it can only get better for us.


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## GreenEyedGuru (Dec 30, 2010)

puckmanfl said:


> Good morning
> 
> Wof
> 
> ...



Pretty much this, and bonus points for the TP reference.

If Marriott wants to skim, they should be honest about it and stop claiming that this system will save people money.  It saves you money only if you don't count losing up to 20% of your trading value when you want to actually use it.

As a single weeks owner who currently does not even subscribe to II, owning in one of the most high demand locations, I don't see any benefit to joining as I will be able to get the trades I want through II or privately, no matter what.

The only thing I could possibly see using this system for would be:

- To 'save' a week for the following year in order to take a longer vacation or to bring more family with us on vacation
- To trade to another Hawaii location

Both of which I could do very easily now with II if I so chose.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 30, 2010)

Stefa said:


> I don't know, Fred.  I think the overreaction when Starwood changed their policy on II deposits has this one beat by a long shot.



Wait till this hits Marriott also. It is only a matter of time IMO.



DanCali said:


> "Even Dan?" ? I haven't even been the most vocal one against this exchange system... Unfortunately, some of the ones more vocal than me have (almost) completely stopped posting on this board some time ago.




You are probably one of the most vocal against the program that is still active in this thread :whoopie: 




GreenEyedGuru said:


> To 'save' a week for the following year in order to take a longer vacation or to bring more family with us on vacation.



This probably won't work as the points you carry over won't be enough to reserve that second week. because of the skim you really can't bank points to use at your home resort the next year. If I want to travel in November to Grande Vista for two weeks by banking points, I wouldn't have enough points to do it. First I don't have enough points from our gold week to get the first week and the banked points will make me even more short.

The sales reps say that you won't want to use DC points to stay at your home resort, "just book your week". What about those EOY owners that want to bank to stay in one of their off years. They can't. What about someone who wants to borrow to get two rooms to bring along a large group. They can't or are greatly inhibited because of the skim.



wof45 said:


> what additions to the points system do you think would make it appeal to 80% of owners?




The skim I could understand for making reservations for less than 7 nights. However, for 7 night stays there should be absolutely zero skim.

Making two 7 night reservations in a 1BR and a studio should cost the exact same amount that it costs to reserve a 2BR.

Make the buy in price $0 or close to it. I already made an argument in another thread where Marriott could have made just as much by having 80% of owners join at zero cost than having 20% join for ~$1000 each. Now it would have taken them a few years to get the pay back from 80% of the owners, but it would have shown their commitment to the owners and saw them as a long term asset instead of a short term cash cow.
These three changes would have people enrolling in droves and a rather happy owner base.


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## GreenEyedGuru (Dec 30, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> This probably won't work as the points you carry over won't be enough to reserve that second week. because of the skim you really can't bank points to use at your home resort the next year.
> 
> The sales reps say that you won't want to use DC points to stay at your home resort, "just book your week". What about those EOY owners that want to bank to stay in one of their off years. They can't. What about someone who wants to borrow to get two rooms to bring along a large group. They can't or are greatly inhibited because of the skim.



Exactly my point.  This is why I won't be buying into the program.



dioxide45 said:


> The skim I could understand for making reservations for less than 7 nights. However, for 7 night stays there should be absolutely zero skim.





I don't see how the skim can be squared with Marriott's claim that owners will save money with this program, no matter how many nights you are booking.  Even if you own enough weeks and are doing enough trading/locking off to save money in fees, the skim still puts you way behind.


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## cruisin (Dec 31, 2010)

csalter2 said:


> I sit and I read these posts and I always find them so entertaining. It is amazing how people get so worked up over very little. Many of you have multiple weeks of Marriott that you bought resale. Many of you have been very, very happy with how many ever weeks you have. Then Marriott adds an option that you don't have to take and you have had a hissy fit ever since June 20, 2010.
> 
> I just don't understand. The rules have changed a little and those of you who have been getting more than you bought are now upset. You bought desert property but now can only go to the desert, but you are so used to having beachfront for your desert prices you are upset. Those of you who choose to go to other resorts with a two bedroom using only your one bedroom or studio now have to probably only choose like for like. Gee, now you are being asked to honor that.
> 
> ...





DanCali said:


> So why was it so important to them to force owners who enroll into the DC into giving up their right to vote as they please on any matter that comes up?
> 
> Until I have a good answer to this question - then it matters.
> 
> To quote a sentence from one of my favorite posts:



I couldn't resist


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## Cobra1950 (Jan 1, 2011)

Well all this discussion on whether Marriott's new points program is of any value brings back the time-honored first rule of timeshares and that was to "buy at the resort you would like to stay at" (in case the trade does not go through).  At least those of us that bought at resorts we wanted to stay at and afford to get to can continue onward at least for a while before the class action lawsuits will probably have to start.
Of course since you can no longer buy actual timeshare properties, only generic points that are sure to be devalued as Marriott never has had a problem in doing in the past, there remains no merit in their program unless the simple convenience of booking on short notice is of overwhelming benefit to the points buyer. 
Anyway, the new program seems to remain as one of the classic brand destructions in U.S. marketing (next to perhaps the destruction of Coke Classic years ago) for students of this field to study over the next decade.
:zzz:


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## dioxide45 (Jan 1, 2011)

Cobra1950 said:


> Well all this discussion on whether Marriott's new points program is of any value brings back the time-honored first rule of timeshares and that was to "buy at the resort you would like to stay at" (in case the trade does not go through).  At least those of us that bought at resorts we wanted to stay at and afford to get to can continue onward at least for a while before the class action lawsuits will probably have to start.
> Of course since you can no longer buy actual timeshare properties, only generic points that are sure to be devalued as Marriott never has had a problem in doing in the past, there remains no merit in their program unless the simple convenience of booking on short notice is of overwhelming benefit to the points buyer.
> Anyway, the new program seems to remain as one of the classic brand destructions in U.S. marketing (next to perhaps the destruction of Coke Classic years ago) for students of this field to study over the next decade.
> :zzz:



What if I don't like to travel to the same place every year or travel to different places every year. That is why timeshare exchange companies came along. To facilitate in the ability to not have to go to the same place every single year. Timeshare exchange companies have been around for almost as long as timeshares themselves.

This anaolgy doesn't work much either when you can't even get your home resort reservation like in this thread.


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## Cobra1950 (Jan 1, 2011)

Dioxide,
     You are right of course, if you cannot get in your home resort, it is a problem, however Marrriott never guaranteed any particular week unless it was a fixed week or Platinum Plus deeded week.  
      We had no issues this week in Park City (they are at February levels for snow) and all went very well as usual with Summittwatch units all redecorated and the ground floor commercial bankruptcy seeming to work out in favor of Summittwatch, which was a credit to the HOA there, as it was a heck of a mess that could have had serious ramifications.:whoopie:whoopie:


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## dioxide45 (Jan 1, 2011)

Cobra1950 said:


> Dioxide,
> You are right of course, if you cannot get in your home resort, it is a problem, however Marrriott never guaranteed any particular week unless it was a fixed week or Platinum Plus deeded week.



Marriott never promised anything, true. There is something to be said about precedence however. People have a right to be angry if for the past five years, they have been able to easily secure a specific reservation. Just because Marriott comes along with a new program, they no longer can? Sure Marriott never made any promises, but that doesn't mean people can't be upset about it.


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## hotcoffee (Jan 1, 2011)

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott never promised anything, true. There is something to be said about precedence however. People have a right to be angry if for the past five years, they have been able to easily secure a specific reservation. Just because Marriott comes along with a new program, they no longer can? Sure Marriott never made any promises, but that doesn't mean people can't be upset about it.



There is a lot of speculation going on here.  It is possible that none of the theories expressed in this forum are actually happening.

However, that said, it is possible that the DC program has affected availability in unexpected ways.  Perhaps Marriott has, in the past, been confirming some reservations using weeks that they themselves had held.  So now, they are not doing that anymore because they are dumping those weeks into DC.  If this is true (and I suspect it is), weeks owners really have no legitimate beef.  Marriott can do whatever they want with weeks they control.


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## jerseyfinn (Jan 1, 2011)

A lively thread in which folks are beginning to touch upon the essence of the “DC problem”.

In the largest sense of the question, what each of we MVC legacy owners face is a paradigm unleashed by the recession -- *the destination travel market and hence TS goes into a deep freeze*. New sales slow to a trickle, the resale market is presently non-existent in the sense of there being any rational resale pricing system, and Marriott has put into high gear a "back-burner idea” which is now called Destination Club.

I don’t fault Marriott for their decision to move on and face the new destination travel reality which drops upon all of us with a giant THUD ! Give them credit for writing down the business and moving on while putting their best solution on the table. The problem with DC is that it remains a “work in progress” as Marriott takes it’s “best first stab” at finding a pricing scheme and a sales model for DC. There remains one unresolved problem for Marriott to contend with as they create a new VC points currency and a new trading platform for DC– we folks in the legacy MVC program. Although Marriott can indeed get away with floating two seperate destination travel programs for the next few years, the looming reality is that *the interests of these two programs may potentially collide *if all parties do not pay careful heed to the larger dynamics operating around us.

What lots of MVC folks in general and folks here on TUG fail to grasp is that our real challenges have nothing to do with “the skim”,  enrolling weeks, and figuring out the confusing  intricacies of Marriott’s  *first iteration* of the DC program. Don’t be surprised if things DC change month to month. MVC folks must understand that DC is going to wobble the next couple of years as we look out for our own interests. I speak of the ability of legacy MVC owners to continue to utilize our MVC weeks in the same manner we were assured when we purchased them ( as recently as June 2010  ) AND to have a rational destination travel environment in which to fully enjoy these weeks ( meaning occupancy, trades,  MR points,  & a cogent/functional resale  market which like it or not, does indeed confer  valuation which serves MVC owners and Marriott developer or Marriott DC interests ).  We need to consider how DC affects these fundamental MVC interests both in the short term and the long term.

Excepting the ordinary competition for weeks/occupancy which is always the functional part of the legacy MVC program, MVC folks will compete against each other only in-so-far as they elect to convert enrolled weeks with MVCEC into VC points. The decision to trade an enrolled week within MVCEC is nothing more than an owner electing an alternative trade broker. Do note however that Marriott’s deciding to eliminate “seasons” when redeeming VC points has both a negative and a positive impact upon ownership interests of MVC platinum and many gold season owners whose MVC purchases were made specifically with value and usage in mind.  The positive side is that Marriott allows the Trust ( which owns all DC weeks ) to move Marriott Trust owned inventory from the VC inventory pool into the MVCEC pool presumably to assist in fulfilling MVCEC trade requests during these early transition years– this is why I would suggest that although only 100,000 MVC weeks are enrolled in MVCEC and a substantially smaller number of these weeks are actually available for “internal trade” within MVCEC,  Marriott will attempt to fulfill as many MVCEC trade requests as possible. 

The negative effect of Marriott’s elimination of  “seasons” within DC falls upon MVC owners to whom Marriott previously assures value both in prime season availability and value assurances for trades with Interval. Paradoxically, *DC potentially acts against the interests of both Interval and MVC owners* who in the future will likely face diminishing Marriott inventory within Interval and an inability to enjoy an attribute pushed hard and heavy in the MVC sales pitch.  Time stands still for no one in timeshare, but Marriott has taken something away from MVC owners while speaking ambiguously about usage assurance and sitting on the sidelines regarding resales which dead economy or not, remains an integral part of the Marriott picture.

Let's talk about this other big *collision point *between MVC and Marriott interests – the resale market. Presently in this stagnant economy, MVC owners are unable to ascertain a true value for their *deeded MVC weeks * < irrespective of one's POV about this new DC program, always remember that we MVC folks hold deeded weeks which are not going away and herein lies both the *power and the problem *facing all of us, Marriott & MVC owners alike > . Over 300,000 deeded owners hold a significant inventory of MVC weeks. Presently Marriott remains ( necessarily) mute about resales as the lack of a wholly functional/robust destination travel sales maket makes wading into resales "sticky business".  But Marriott and DC can not forever ignore the resale market because 300,000 plus MVC owners are not going to hold their weeks for eternity and Marriott could kill the goose that lays the golden egg if it tries to build a Berlin Wall around MVC resales. By saying nothing at this moment, Marriott risks nothing and hopefully keeps options open to create an MVC resale arbitrage which fits within the new DC confines. Present economic conditions do not permit this so MVC owners pondering selling have no option but to sell weeks E-Bays sacrificial Altar or allow TS brokers to steal their weeks for a song. Patience is a virtue, but it's hard to practice as economic uncertainty & Marriott silence persists. 

The good news is that Marriott and the Trust have created a new destination travel currency, VC points, AND they have established a set price for these VC points which for the most part equals developer prices circa December 2007  ( multiply the points DC offers you to enroll your MVC week by $9.40 & it should approximate those 2007 developer prices at many resorts – at least that’s what I get for my Ocean Pointe  weeks ). This gives both long term owners and those hoping for resales a clue about the potential value of their weeks. Of course another good question to ask is if Marriott really thinks it can sell the DC program at this price point. The answer appears to be yes. Using  *windje2000‘s* November 2010 sales figures of  16,600,000 VC points sold last year to 10,500 purchasers adds up to sales of $156 million. I’ll leave it for others to pull out Marriott’s prior year sales in MVC to determine if the DC boat is gonna float.  That said, the average VC points owned per DC member is just over 1500 VC points. It’s good news for we MVC folks because 1500 VC points ain’t gonna buy a lot of nights. Hence this seems to support my surmise that we MVC folks are not facing a great deal of competition from DC people . . . yet.

Thus one final question. How long before the economy perks up sufficiently to spark some additional discretionary spending on destination travel? THIS is when we MVC folks gotta get concerned about things Marriott & DC.  When more folks pour into DC, so too will the *demand and competition for weeks grow between DC members and MVC members*. The metric that we all need to keep watching is how much inventory does Marriott really hold in the Trust as this is where Marriott will fulfill DC requests from.  Remember, presently 31 of the MVC resorts are now owned  by the Trust.  At some of these resorts, it will matter greatly as to how many platinum and gold season weeks the Trust was able to acquire at these resorts as these are the weeks that Marriott can put into play for DC and these weeks could turn into a double-edged sword against MVC owners. 

What do I mean? Check the VC redemption book and take note of those weeks requiring the most VC points – in other words, we all finally see which weeks at which resorts were the most-demanded Interval trades, only now these weeks are controlled by Marriott and DC. Just how is Marriott going to allocate/determine how many of those top-tier DC weeks ( which are “platunim weeks” covering an entire MVC season ) going to be allocated to DC where they may potentially “squeeze out” MVC owners trying to utilize their platinum MVC ownership to get in. THIS is where *voting rights and HOAs could come into play*. At Trust resorts where the Trust owns the majority of inventory  ( Oceana Palms for example ) there is nothing preventing Marriott and DC ( which votes those weeks ) to create allocations of platinum/high demand inventory which favor DC allocations/requests over MVC owner allocation/requests. At non-Trust resorts ( Ocean Pointe ) or Trust resorts where MVC owners continue to hold the majority of inventory, or majority inventory in a specific season such as platinum,  it would become crucial to vote to assure representation of MVC interests. But Marriott has opened Pandora’s Box when it creates DC and announces that seasons do not exist when in fact they do exist for over 300,000 MVC owners. Seasons have become even more important to MVC owners, especially if they either stay outside of DC or they enroll their MVC weeks but continue to reserve/occupy utilizing the legacy MVC program.

Keep your eyes wide open and learn precisely how DC functions and how DC may possibly impact your MVC ownership. In the short run, say the next 2 or 3 years, both MVC and DC should coexist without many issues as there simply not enough DC members to collide with us. In the interim,  keep close watch on the economy and signs of recovery which bring more folks back into the destination travel fold. They’re not enemies of we MVC owners. A rebounding destination travel market creates opportunity for Marriott and MVC owners to see a revived market in which resales could also reestablish themselves. Here is another bargaining chip by which Marriott and MVC owners could partner as growing DC demand creates impetus for Marriott to work with MVC owners to help fill inventory gaps. By that time, DC may be on it’s third or fourth “redo” and the program will be larger and more refined. At the moment all of our choices are constrained. This may change in time.

We are all facing change. But it is debatable if we MVC folks need to change anything at this moment in time. Let the clock run, watch the game play, and decide when it's time to step off of the bench.

Barry


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## GregT (Jan 1, 2011)

Barry, this is a really good post.   We are going to learn alot in the years ahead of how DC truly affects us, and you have some thought-provoking comments here.    Watching and waiting is a reasonable plan, considering all of the turbulence.

Best to all,

Greg


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## m61376 (Jan 2, 2011)

GregT said:


> Barry, this is a really good post.   We are going to learn alot in the years ahead of how DC truly affects us, and you have some thought-provoking comments here.    Watching and waiting is a reasonable plan, considering all of the turbulence.
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg


So true. Barry- your analysis was quite cogent. I just hope it will never be time to step off the beach, and that Marriott will remember that its legacy owners are its long term customer base. I think IF they fail to recognize that in future years and DC program convolutes legacy week owner's reservations that the customer dissatisfaction would create a runaway train wreck for their timeshare business as a whole. Marriott needs those almost a third of a million customers to continue being happy, buy more of its product in future years, and to be its good will messengers. 300,000+ unhappy campers would be a huge public relations nightmare.

I truly think that Marriott will be good to its word and fairly allocate each reservation date to each pool. The bigger issue will be if more and more legacy week owners opt for points in a given year, but personally I don't foresee that happening. I think the point allocation at most properties (with a few notable exceptions where there were high allocations), coupled with the skim, creates a scenario where most legacy week owners will continue to reserve their weeks and even enrolled owners will only occasionally, if ever, opt for points. 

The next few years will be interesting indeed. I am glad that Marriott delayed the inevitable decision date. I think that alone opens the door for several of Greg's predictions posted in the other thread to come to fruition. Time will tell....


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