# % of resale owners



## DannyTS (Oct 22, 2018)

we are currently at Lagunamar and we are having a great time.
Discussing with other owners i am surprised to see how many people do not know about the resale option. 
I am curious, does anybody know the proportion of resale owners?


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## Passepartout (Oct 22, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I am curious, does anybody know the proportion of resale owners?


Probably someone in the county recorders' office or in the resort developers' back office. Unless there is a search to see how many weeks have been titled more than once since they were in the developer's name, how would anyone know?


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## vacationtime1 (Oct 22, 2018)

Passepartout said:


> Probably someone in the county recorders' office or in the resort developers' back office. Unless there is a search to see how many weeks have been titled more than once since they were in the developer's name, how would anyone know?



Obviously it varies resort by resort, but the developer would know if it is still involved in managing the HOA (although it probably won't tell and I'm not sure I would believe its answer anyway).

The HOA will know, but if it is controlled by the developer the answer would be suspect.

But why is it significant?


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## DannyTS (Oct 22, 2018)

vacationtime1 said:


> Obviously it varies resort by resort, but the developer would know if it is still involved in managing the HOA (although it probably won't tell and I'm not sure I would believe its answer anyway).
> 
> The HOA will know, but if it is controlled by the developer the answer would be suspect.
> 
> But why is it significant?


just curiosity. the price difference is so wide it is surprising that not more people know about redweek, tug and so on.  I was not expecting precise numbers rather an estimate


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## breezez (Oct 22, 2018)

First off I’m not a Vistana owner.   But living only an hour from Orlando I do stay on short stay exchanges at times at various locations in the area including the Vistana Resorts.

I always hang out for about 45 minutes or more each day at the hot tub and as soon as you get on the conversation how many points, options, weeks etc people will really get mad when they find out what I have paid.   They never see it as a positive they could add more for reduced rates, but rather angry, or feeling sick about how much they paid.

I tell everyone about Tug and encourage them to learn their system.

As far as why do people pay more for developer units.   Most don't know any better, but others will buy even after you tell them because they perceive it must be better if they sold it to me for more by them!

I saw this thing on TV the other day where they were allowing people to try two energy drinks they were using the same drink but calling it 2 different products, all ingredients the same, but higher priced one out sold lower price drink by a heft margin.  Go figure!


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 22, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> just curiosity. the price difference is so wide it is surprising that not more people know about redweek, tug and so on.  I was not expecting precise numbers rather an estimate



I suspect that many people have heard of timeshare resales but don't know the specifics of Tug or Redweek. They have heard that there are scammers (horror stories), and know that it is complicated. We had heard of resales but were afraid of being scammed and did not know if we would like it so opted for developer for our first purchase to get our feet wet. Fortunately we purchased a decent property in a good system (HGVC).


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## TravelTime (Oct 22, 2018)

I would guess that once people have bought through developers, if you tell them about resale, they will be majorly pissed off, and justifiebly so. They were ripped off! However, I do not think this will lead them to resale if it is too late to rescind. I suspect they will end up being turned off about timeshares and feel screwed yet be  be happy with the extra benefits they get as a direct owner. I suspect it is it better not to talk to people about about how you acquired your timeshares and how much you paid. It is like bragging. I do not think we should judge people either way.


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 22, 2018)

In several systems, resale units are shrinking because the developer is buying back units to put into trust point portfolios. The notion of buying a resale week at a specific resort may become a thing of the past.  However this transition will take a long time.

With that said, the older the resort the higher % resales. Many who purchased newer resorts financed the developer purchase so cannot sell for up to 10 years until the mortgage is paid off. They will eventually tire of the destination, tire of the MF, or have a life event and need to sell.


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## PamMo (Oct 22, 2018)

I don't think it's surprising at all to meet more retail vs resale buyers at resorts. Developers have invested billions of dollars in building and marketing timeshares. You won't be pulled into a _resale_ timeshare sales presentation while walking the streets of popular vacation towns. I'd be willing to wager most retail owners bought from a very persuasive sales person on a "90-minute tour." I never even knew what a timeshare was before being enticed by someone in Las Vegas offering free meals and shows to eight of us vacationing there. (We didn't buy.) The money spent on marketing resale timeshares is puny compared to the developers' budgets.


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## alexadeparis (Oct 22, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I would guess that once people have bought through developers, if you tell them about resale, they will be majorly pissed off, and justifiebly so. They were ripped off! However, I do not think this will lead them to resale if it is too late to rescind. I suspect they will end up being turned off about timeshares and feel screwed yet be  be happy with the extra benefits they get as a direct owners. I suspect it is it better not to talk to people about about how you acquired your timeshares and how much you paid. It is like bragging. I do not think we should judge people either way.



 I have come around to this way of thinking as well. I used to try to educate people I encountered in the resorts if the topic rolled around to purchasing/ ownership. I was met with such vitriol on occasion, that now I just keep my mouth shut or say I inherited it to move the topic along. The retail purchaser tends to believe that somehow I, as a resale owner, am gaming the system.


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## celica7101 (Oct 22, 2018)

alexadeparis said:


> I have come around to this way of thinking as well. I used to try to educate people I encountered in the resorts if the topic rolled around to purchasing/ ownership. I was met with such vitriol on occasion, that now I just keep my mouth shut or say I inherited it to move the topic along. The retail purchaser tends to believe that somehow I, as a resale owner, am gaming the system.



Really?  Gaming the system?? How?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## amycurl (Oct 22, 2018)

Cognitive dissonance is a real thing, folks. Rather than talking about resale, I just point them to TUG and let them learn about it on their own.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 22, 2018)

I suspect the percentage of resale owners is quite low, perhaps lower than 5% overall. Older resorts will have a higher percentage of course but with companies like Vistana and Marriott taking back weeks, those percentages will probably hold pretty steady. Most people I talk to don't know about resale and I don't usually bring it up for the reasons mentioned above. Though my wife is always quick to blurt out "we paid $22 for our week, bet you paid more than that!". Sometimes it goes over well, sometimes not so much.

The developer, in this case Vistana, is likely to know the percentage of resale ownership vs developer. I doubt the HOA knows. They may just maintain a list of existing owners. THough in the case of Vistana and Marriott, they are leaving all that record keeping up to the management company anyway. So even if you were to ask, you probably wouldn't get an answer.


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## carpie99 (Oct 23, 2018)

I talked to a 10 year owner yesterday here at Lagunamar ... he owns 9 weeks all bought from developer and had no idea what a resale was


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## TravelTime (Oct 23, 2018)

carpie99 said:


> I talked to a 10 year owner yesterday here at Lagunamar ... he owns 9 weeks all bought from developer and had no idea what a resale was



Ha, ha. Did he buy them or his parents?


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## carpie99 (Oct 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Ha, ha. Did he buy them or his parents?



All his purchases


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## DannyTS (Oct 23, 2018)

i also talked Yesterday with a retail owner. He was so interested in the resale ownership that he started to take notes about Redweek, Tug Bbs. His son has kids now so they need more but they were reluctant of adding from the developer because it is expensive.


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## pacman777 (Oct 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> i also talked Yesterday with a retail owner. He was so interested in the resale ownership that he started to take notes about Redweek, Tug Bbs. His son has kids now so they need more but they were reluctant of adding from the developer because it is expensive.



It’s a catch 22. Should we give away our secrets and benefits of resales or keep mum about it because after all we need uninformed people to buy from the developers to even have a steeply discounted resale market. Also does this increase prices on the resale market as more people find out about this option. I know it has for certain popular resorts like Lagunamar and WKV and this is just Vistana we’re talking about.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Oct 23, 2018)

Whenever I hear about resale bargains I just want to punch someone in the face. Luckily that someone is me for not doing my research in the first place.

I actually kid myself that if I had bought resale I would have been able to buy 4x as many weeks and would therefore have had 4x the MF headache. Please don't mention I could have just bought the 1 week resale and saved myself 75% as I would then feel that punch coming on again


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## controller1 (Oct 23, 2018)

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> Whenever I hear about resale bargains I just want to punch someone in the face. Luckily that someone is me for not doing my research in the first place.
> 
> I actually kid myself that if I had bought resale I would have been able to buy 4x as many weeks and would therefore have had 4x the MF headache. Please don't mention I could have just bought the 1 week resale and saved myself 75% as I would then feel that punch coming on again



You're not alone.

I discovered TUG in the middle of 2017.  But before I discovered TUG and understood the resale side of timeshares . . . I had purchased (all developer) 2 weeks of OF at WKORVN, 2 weeks of OF at Nanea and 257,700 points in Westin Flex.  I previously owned a week at Princeville but traded in on Nanea.

If I had only known..... But hey, I'm Vistana 5-Star Elite!


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 23, 2018)

@EnglishmanAbroad and @controller1 I feel your pain. Before we found TUG we bought one NYC property from the developer.

We then found and purchased 2 resales: 1 HGVC Vegas trader, and WKORVN OF which in total were less than half of what we paid retail for NYC.

Between low resale prices, trading cheaper Vegas MF into expensive OF HI, using discounted getaways, and garnering incentives and low cost stays from presentations, I feel we are slowly making up for that expensive lesson.

Biggest problem is that resale timeshares are so inexpensive it is very tempting to pick up a few more but could end up with too many MF!  May pull the trigger during the next downturn for a distress sale or two.


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## DannyTS (Oct 23, 2018)

pacman777 said:


> It’s a catch 22. Should we give away our secrets and benefits of resales or keep mum about it because after all we need uninformed people to buy from the developers to even have a steeply discounted resale market. Also does this increase prices on the resale market as more people find out about this option. I know it has for certain popular resorts like Lagunamar and WKV and this is just Vistana we’re talking about.


i thought Tug was all about spreading the knowledge and the love .


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## DannyTS (Oct 23, 2018)

i totally understand why owners who have no intention to buy more but spent a lot of money to buy retail are not happy to have this kind of conversation.


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 23, 2018)

LoL. I think of Tuggers as being akin to coin collectors. They are always looking for the rare resale deal, they trade frequently, and they like to get together to share what "treasured property" or trade they have found.

Others simply buy and use coins (or a timeshare). They see coins as a means to an end and don't care. Those are the majority.


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## DannyTS (Oct 23, 2018)

if you think about it, there are about 90,000Tug members, not all very active and not all resale owners.How many timeshare owners? Probably over 2 millions when you add all the copmpanies


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## TravelTime (Oct 23, 2018)

I suspect that there are very few active Tuggers. I always see the same people commenting here. Even on TUG, very few people own multiple weeks. The Marriott forum did a survey. Very few responded and of the people who did, very few owned a lot of weeks. Anyway, the industry is moving towards points in the future and things will be changing a lot with Marriott’s domination of the timeshare industry.


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## controller1 (Oct 23, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> i totally understand why owners who have no intention to buy more but spent a lot of money to buy retail are not happy to have this kind of conversation.



I really don't mind having this conversation if handled in an appropriate way. However, an in-person conversation with someone who acts as if I'm stupid for buying direct would not be pleasant at all.


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## TravelTime (Oct 23, 2018)

controller1 said:


> I really don't mind having this conversation if handled in an appropriate way. However, an in-person conversation with someone who acts as if I'm stupid for buying direct would not be pleasant at all.



I am not comfortable having these conversations in person. I do not like discussing how much I paid for things with people I meet at resorts. How do you even introduce this topic in person? Do you go up to the person and say “Hi I am TT. I paid $X resale for my week (or points) here. How did you buy yours and how much did you pay? BTW, have you heard of TUG?” LOL (Tongue in cheek)


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## DannyTS (Oct 23, 2018)

controller1 said:


> I really don't mind having this conversation if handled in an appropriate way. However, an in-person conversation with someone who acts as if I'm stupid for buying direct would not be pleasant at all.


I think you are right ,  it is the tone makes the music. A genuine intend to help and provide information (with no self serving benefit) can be easily misinterpreted and annoy a lot of people.
To Traveltime, I did not even start the conversations, it happened for me more than once that i was asked if i was an owner at the resort and then the conversations went that way. One does not have to provide "i paid x$" but you can say you can get an interesting  deal by buying from another owner rather than from the resort, you will not have staroptions but still trade on Interval. To my shock (and again i did not have the conversation with many) people ask if it is not MORE expensive to buy resale! I think this is what they are lead to believe by the developer.


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## TravelTime (Oct 23, 2018)

I think what makes the Vistana mandatory resorts and the Hyatt system special right now is that they are virtually identical to buying direct. They come with almost all the benefits of buying direct. Those are the ones I would be promoting if I were to be a resale advocate at the resorts I visit. I do not own Hyatt but I read the Hyatt forum and it seems to have high guest satisfaction.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 23, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I am not comfortable having these conversations in person. I do not like discussing how much I paid for things with people I meet at resorts. How do you even introduce this topic in person? Do you go up to the person and say “Hi I am TT. I paid $X resale for my week (or points) here. How did you buy yours and how much did you pay? BTW, have you heard of TUG?” LOL (Tongue in cheek)


That isn't it at all. A conversation never would start this way, it would perhaps progress to this in some form. Usually you strike up a conversation about nothing specific; weather, where are you from. Then it can go anywhere and in some cases where you own, what you own and how you bought it comes up.


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## TravelTime (Oct 24, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> That isn't it at all. A conversation never would start this way, it would perhaps progress to this in some form. Usually you strike up a conversation about nothing specific; weather, where are you from. Then it can go anywhere and in some cases where you own, what you own and how you bought it comes up.



Yes I know. I was exagerrating. I said “LOL Tongue in cheek” at the end.


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## DavidnRobin (Oct 24, 2018)

I have saved complete strangers $1000s during random conversations.
Pay it forward...


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## EnglishmanAbroad (Oct 24, 2018)

DavidnRobin said:


> I have saved complete strangers $1000s during random conversations.
> Pay it forward...



I agree. I just wish someone could invent a way of paying me backward


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## cooldj23 (Oct 24, 2018)

Am currently at Broadway Plantation on an Interval Getaway in a Two BR villa for $327 for the week.  Went to the presentation to get the $100 plus two free adult Seafood buffets.  We own four resale mandatory weeks that total 169,000 Starwood points.  We paid roughly 25% of the developer price back in 2007-2008 ( before the recession).  They cost a lot less now.
They offerred to move our 169,000 points to the new Marriott/ Starwood flex program for $20K.  Supposedly we would be elite members with ability to book 2 years out, and use the property management to “sell” unused points and make money on the deal.  No written details were provided.  The idea of being able to book in advance, to sell weeks, and convert options to interval sounded appealing, but at the end of the day we would be paying $20K for the same MF’s, options and points that we already have.  So we took the $100 and left. But I am intrigued by the ability to access Marriott timeshare properties, use the property mgmt to “make money”, and convert points to interval and get two or three weeks for every one.
If this is the wrong forum to post I apologize. And Calgaltraveller, for what its worth, I am a coin collector.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 24, 2018)

cooldj23 said:


> Am currently at Broadway Plantation on an Interval Getaway in a Two BR villa for $327 for the week.  Went to the presentation to get the $100 plus two free adult Seafood buffets.  We own four resale mandatory weeks that total 169,000 Starwood points.  We paid roughly 25% of the developer price back in 2007-2008 ( before the recession).  They cost a lot less now.
> They offerred to move our 169,000 points to the new Marriott/ Starwood flex program for $20K.  Supposedly we would be elite members with ability to book 2 years out, and use the property management to “sell” unused points and make money on the deal.  No written details were provided.  The idea of being able to book in advance, to sell weeks, and convert options to interval sounded appealing, but at the end of the day we would be paying $20K for the same MF’s, options and points that we already have.  So we took the $100 and left. But I am intrigued by the ability to access Marriott timeshare properties, use the property mgmt to “make money”, and convert points to interval and get two or three weeks for every one.
> If this is the wrong forum to post I apologize. And Calgaltraveller, for what its worth, I am a coin collector.


There is no Marriott/Starwood Flex program. There is a Westin Flex and a Sheraton Flex program. THere is no access to Marriott properties through those flex programs. You can also only book 12 months out within them, not 2 years.


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## cooldj23 (Oct 24, 2018)

That is what I understood going in, but he said “It’s lucky that I didn’t sign up for the Starwood flex last time  because the new one includes both Starwood and Marriott properties”.  He referred to it as MCS I believe.  Supposedly an email went out to all owners nine weeks ago, though I never saw it. 
I have seen nothing on tug referring to this new offer.  Was the whole thing a lie?


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## carpie99 (Oct 24, 2018)

cooldj23 said:


> That is what I understood going in, but he said “It’s lucky that I didn’t sign up for the Starwood flex last time  because the new one includes both Starwood and Marriott properties”.  He referred to it as MCS I believe.  Supposedly an email went out to all owners nine weeks ago, though I never saw it.
> I have seen nothing on tug referring to this new offer.  Was the whole thing a lie?



I never got an email about MCS ... I call bullsh$?


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## cooldj23 (Oct 24, 2018)

It seems that the correct term is MVC the Marriott Vacation Club. They also mentioned a Property Management feature that we can “ rent out” our weeks and make a profit. Has anyone used this feature and has anyone gotten a similar pitch to move to this new all inclusive program?


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## PamMo (Oct 25, 2018)

I think your sales person did a great job of mixing up the timeshare and hotel sides of the Marriott/Vistana merger to get you interested in buying! The Marriott/Starwood _hotel_ points programs have been fully integrated, and you can now reserve at any hotel in the system with loyalty _hotel_ points. You can also convert your StarOptions and Marriott Destination Club points into hotel points (at a poor conversion rate), but you cannot use Vistana StarOptions for Marriott Vacation Club timeshares or vice versa right now. Maybe we'll see it in the future, but no one knows if, when, or how that will happen.

You were smart to walk away from this "deal" and get your $100!


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## alexadeparis (Oct 26, 2018)

celica7101 said:


> Really?  Gaming the system?? How?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



I guess by paying less upfront. Or knowing how to use it better, most people I meet with timeshares don’t know how to maximize booking and usage to get the premium booking slots.


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## DannyTS (Oct 26, 2018)

Only in the timeshare world the subsequent owners are less "legit" than the initial owner. What a crooked perception initiated and maintained by the developers. I did not buy my house from the developer. Should i feel embarrassed that i am not the original owner?


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## TUGBrian (Oct 26, 2018)

Arda figures say 9 million "households" own timeshares in the US.

if I had to guess, id say less than 10% were resale owners(and of that 10%, probably 95% only discovered resale after buying retail first)


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## RichardY (Oct 27, 2018)

I find this topic interesting after being a TS owner for 22 yrs. While on a vacation in Orlando with my wife and 6 yr old son at the time, we went on our first TS tour (I'd call it sales salvo) at Vistana in 1996. I fell for the pitch and purchased a 2BR for what I think was $14K. Next day we went to the Marriott Royal Palms.  While I was listening to the secondary pitch by the sales mgr to buy a 2 BR unit for $17K, I blurted out as a defensive comeback, "your prices are too high - I'd buy a resale if they were lower".  It just popped in my head that there must be some people that want out of their units, so why can't I buy one of them? The sales mgr immediately took me into another room and had a fairly lengthy list of re-sales.  I purchased a floating Red Week (although deed is for July 4th week) for $12,500, or $4,500 less than the other sales room. Then I realized that I probably screwed up on the Vistana purchase, but had 10 days to rescind.  I returned home and looked around on the internet (when it took a minute or two for a page to download) and saw re-sale companies even then. I called one and was told that I could get Vistana for 1/2 of what I paid, or less. Wow, I immediately rescinded my Vistana purchase.  I then found TUG and called and spoke with Brian's father at great length and joined. I used to call periodically and we had great conversations. 

The following year I went back to Orlando and did a tour at Cypress Pointe (was a Gold Crown and nice in 1997) and they wanted $16,500 for a 3BR. I then found the same unit for $5000 on the internet as a resale and bought it. I used to rent it for nearly 2x my maint fees through TUG and recouped my $5000 back in about 7 yrs. Never once stepped foot in the resort and either rented or deposited into RCI for maximum points. I would tell anyone I ran into to go on tours but buy on internet (or some form of resale) after they understand the pricing. I recently flipped the Cypress Pointe back to Diamond and was glad to be rid of it - the maint fees had doubled since 1997 and it ran it's life cycle with me - impossible to rent and points through RCI deposit were only 2/3 of where they once were, while the cost of owning doubled! I kept the Marriott only b/c we can turn the unit back for hotel points, even though it is no longer a good trade-off, since the points are the same as in 1996, but the points to stay at a Marriott hotel has risen 50-100% since 1996. I called Marriott earlier this year and they said the average resale price for my unit was $4000 to me if they sell it. I decided to hold onto the Royal Palms a few more years. 

I must admit that I was really into TUG for about 7 years after I joined and then dropped out.  Spotted it online a few years back and decided to re-join and have appreciated the forums. It was this forum that enlightened me to deed-back my Cypress Pointe TS to Diamond earlier this year.  Very good decision. TUG has really grown from the mid-1990s for sure. I belong to II and RCI both but use them to book cruises only. If I wanted a TS week I think I would rent one online like TUG classifieds. With so many TS rentals on the market, I would guess that there would be a lot less owners if they knew they could find good rentals all the time on sites like TUG, and never be on the hook for maint fees that increase too much over the years, at least in my case.  Even my Marriott maint fees are 2x what they were in 1996.


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## TravelTime (Oct 27, 2018)

TUGBrian said:


> Arda figures say 9 million "households" own timeshares in the US.
> 
> if I had to guess, id say less than 10% were resale owners(and of that 10%, probably 95% only discovered resale after buying retail first)



How many TUG members are there? Would that make for a good guesstimate as to the possible maximum number of resale owners out there? It seems like it would be hard to buy resale without knowing about TUG, unless someone gifts a timeshare to you, but then I am not sure if you really count as a resale buyer.


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## BigRedOne (Oct 27, 2018)

Have owned our TS since the early 80’s and there probably weren’t any resales back then.  Don’t forget that no one can afford to sell their TS until they have it payed for (or at least close to payed for).  My resort was developed by a local developer in Branson and we have been very happy with it.  That is probably going to change when I get my next MF bill.  The resort has been bought out by a large TS company and they are trying to get everyone to upgrade to one of their new resorts for a considerable amount of $$$$$$.  I’m not sure what their endgame is but just about all of the owners at my resort are in their 60’s, 70’s and 80’s and aren’t wanting to go into debt again. 

Our original developer passed away several years ago, his son took over and didn’t do any maintenance.  Now the resort needs some rather expensive upgrades/repairs.  The new owner is THREATENING the current owners with $7000 or $8000 (yes that’s in thousands) in special assessment to get them to buy into their new resort.  I probably would be willing to just give my resort away but someone is still going to have to pay for these repairs so I’m not sure what’s going to happen.  Bottom line is that this new developer will kill any chances of selling or even giving away my unit at resale.

Back to the original question, I am guessing that the amount of resale timeshares is well under 5%.


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## topcop400 (Oct 27, 2018)

TUGBrian said:


> If I had to guess, id say less than 10% were resale owners (and of that 10%, probably 95% only discovered resale after buying retail first)




I’m the rare breed who has only purchased resale.  I was fortunate enough to have a friend who went down the path of developer purchase and subsequently found the resale market.  She told me she’d pinch my head off if I purchased from a developer.


Is there animosity toward me from those who first purchased from a developer?


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## geist1223 (Oct 27, 2018)

Just remember there would be a smaller resell market if someone had not bought from the Developer to start.


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## controller1 (Oct 27, 2018)

topcop400 said:


> I’m the rare breed who has only purchased resale.  I was fortunate enough to have a friend who went down the path of developer purchase and subsequently found the resale market.  She told me she’d pinch my head off if I purchased from a developer.
> 
> 
> Is there animosity toward me from those who first purchased from a developer?



No animosity. Just envy.


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## pacman777 (Oct 27, 2018)

I was fortunate to find TUG back in 2014. I had been in various timeshare presentations even before then but never really was sold or interested in the concept until we did a tour at Westin Kaanapali Resort when we were staying at the Sheraton Maui. Mainly did it for the the star points but being a fan of Starwood Hotels I was interested so did some research after declining the sales presentation. Since then I have amassed a nice little timeshare portfolio of over 30 units that I bought resale in various locations mainly with Vistana, a few Hyatt and some prime ski locations. And I’m always looking for more if there are some good resale deals. Plan is to be able to stay in a timeshare for a whole year when I retire


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## TUGBrian (Oct 27, 2018)

certainly not much animosity on TUG...but its very prevalent elsewhere!

some folks are downright mean and spiteful towards resale owners.  In fact the ONLY 1 star review TUG has ever gotten was from a "retail only" person who cited the fact that TUG promoted resale over retail in his justification for the 1 star review on facebook.


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## skimeup (Oct 27, 2018)

I would not have purchased a timeshare at all if a friend had not told me about purchasing a resale unit.  Now retired teacher here - not paying $20, 000 for a timeshare with mf/s with 18% interest!  I am an opera nut and found my first ts - a 1br at Inn at the Opera - right across the street from the War Memorial Opera House in San Francisco.  In about 2002 I spent $2500 for a one bedroom and that included a week's use.  I have lovingly used it every year.  Bought an upgrade from the management company for $250 and sold my initial unit for $250 (and I paid Legal Timeshare Transfer about $350 for transfer, obtaining deed, etc.)  Also talked a friend into buying an upgraded unit for $1 on tug.  Now we share two weeks  The 1 br has allowed me to stay with a friend and split the mf.

 BTW, LTT is probably the least expensive escrow company on the market but they have lots of business so are slow.  Maybe their heavy business could suggest more people buying resale?  It took almost 4 months to close the sale.  Fortunately, I sold in April and kept this year's use so the buyer was not anxious.

I have bought almost all my units through eBay - except the first, which was through maybe Redweek.  I had not yet discovered tug then. I notice lots of references to Redweek and tug here, but none to eBay.  There are several other resale companies that have excellent reputations - I have friends that have used tri west timeshare resales and I once used a company in Arizona whose name escapes me now.  Which handled the purchase at Los Abrigados in about 2004.  3-4 years ago, they wouldn't handle a sale at Los Ab because it is owned by Diamond.   Fortunately for me, I sold one week and was able to return another.  The best part of tug and redfin is that there is no commission included for the selling company.  And with eBay they seem to make their money on the expensive escrow.  Or maybe the buyer is paying them a fee? In any case, as long as one knows the escrow company is legit, no point in worrying about the  pays a fee?

I read carefully the Hyatt forum before purchasing a nice unit in Carmel for $499.  And immediately had buyers' remorse because  I couldn't pay the mf ahead and get access to units.  I was looking to go to Key West and can't reserve in January until December 2.  However, I see time available still so I am perhaps OK.  And World of Hyatt through the Hyatt ownership gave me about a 30% discount...  but still, with tax and per diem price with tax is almost double, even with the discount..  I am wondering if the portfolio program and purchasing through the developer gives one the option of paying and reserving ahead?

Perhaps a more interesting question would be how many folks are renting timeshare weeks rather than buying nowadays?  And how many are using Airbnb instead of paying for timeshares - owning or renting?


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## quikitikit (Oct 28, 2018)

Back in about 1994, a more senior co worker, told me of his buying a Hawaii timeshare resale, said never buy directly from a developer, to save lots of money.  I didn’t what timeshares were and didn’t think much about it until I was planning to retire.  So with planning to retire in 2009, I wanted to still go on vacations, learned more of what timeshares were from other coworkers and how to trade them with II or RCI.  After retiring, I bought in 2009 on EBay (during recession and many were unloading timeshares) Marriott Newport Coast (NCV) 2 bedroom, every other year, even year use.  I thought every other year use was sufficient use enough.  Found out Newport Coast was a 2 bedroom not lock off, though advertised as lock off.  So I again went to EBay to buy Lake Tahoe Vacation Resort 2 bedroom (my secretary owned here and traded it to go to Cabo San Lucas) for every other year use in odd year.  Another friend who owned Lake Tahoe since the 1990’s was shocked to hear what we paid for our timeshare.

In 2010, Marriott changed to the point system.  Since even on resale, I paid 4 figures for Marriott, I had not traded it on II but used and enjoyed use of it.  In 2014, we bought directly from Marriott vacation points so that we could enroll our Marriott Newport Coast timeshare into the point system even though we bought it resale.  We have enjoyed NCV and have traded NCV for points and with our purchased points have traded to go to Oahu and Maui with our adult children and grandkids.  

We had thought of returning our Lake Tahoe property back to Diamond Resorts, eventually receiving the paperwork, but then decided using the studio and depositing the 1 bedroom to trade with II was worth keeping a little longer.  

Though I found Tug after purchasing my timeshares, I learned so much more about timeshares and use under different programs through TUG!  Wealth of information from so many owners!


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## dioxide45 (Oct 28, 2018)

quikitikit said:


> In 2014, we bought directly from Marriott vacation points so that we could enroll our Marriott Newport Coast timeshare into the point system even though we bought it resale.


You didn't have to buy directly from Marriott to be able to enroll your Newport Coast week. Since it seems you bought it before the cutoff date of June 20, 2010. You could have enrolled it for only the enrollment fee.


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## DaveNV (Oct 28, 2018)

For those who bought from the Developer, having a smug resale buyer throw it in their face that they overspent is not only insulting, it makes them feel foolish.  Nobody wants to feel like they were played.  Anger is quite often a natural response, and arguing that the resale buyer has a diminished ownership is a natural reaction, even if all based on speculation, or Developer lies during a sales pitch.  I have never bragged about what I got resale (for $X) to a Developer-purchaser (for $XXX), but I have asked them, "Have you ever explored the resale market?"  It usually opens a conversation that can be a teaching moment, and less of a back and forth about how they had spent way too much for the same thing.  It's a delicate dance.

I've told the story before:  Back in the 1980's, I used to attend timeshare sales presentations just for the gifts.  It was a game, because I had no intention of purchasing anything, and knew going in that I wouldn't be buying.  I never bought, because I just knew they were too much money.  At the time, I did a lot of tent camping, or progressive vacationing where I'd stay only a day or two in one area.  The timeshare model didn't fit my vacationing style.  Timeshares fell into a place in my head as an outrageous expense for a limited return.  I didn't know anyone who had bought a timeshare who was happy about it.  (Granted, I didn't ask a lot of people.)  But even then, timeshares had a sour reputation.

About 2004, my brother and his then-wife were on a vacation to Cabo San Lucas, and fell for a sales pitch at Hacienda del Mar.  For the free gift of a (mediocre) bottle of tequila, they ended up spending about $15K (I think) for a studio unit.  When they went to use the unit for the first time, they invited us to go along.  We'd never been to Mexico, so agreed to go.  The place was nice, (if cramped), and we did enjoy ourselves, but I couldn't get around the idea that they'd spent way too much for what they got.  

After that trip, I decided maybe timeshares weren't a bad thing after all, but there had to be a better way.  I did a bit of creative Googling, found Tug, learned about the resale market, and went from there.  Ebay and Sumday became my timeshare stores.  In the years since, I've bought and sold maybe a dozen timeshares of all types, believing the only way to know the whole truth about a given resort or system was to "learn by owning."  I went through a lot of independents, mini-systems, and clubs, (admittedly, most were second-tier locations), until I came to the realization that Weeks are great, as long as you want to spend seven nights at the same resort, either as an Owner or Exchanger.  I have since sold all my Weeks, and I own only WorldMark now, mainly so I can book shorter stays (and still enjoy a lot of system-level perks.)  

I'm pleased, but wouldn't be so comfortable if I didn't know what's what about things.  My experience has given me a level of comfort that I feel I've earned.  A lot of people who own timeshares don't know what they truly own, or how to use it to their full advantage.  It's easier to go with what they know, (or have been told), rather than make the leap to learn the other side of things.

Dave


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## TravelTime (Oct 28, 2018)

I have purchased almost entirely resale except for 2 tiny Disney contracts and a hybrid purchase from Marriott (all done by phone and online with no sales presentation). So I am a resale advocate. I have rescinded on a couple direct developer contracts since finding TUG. There is one thing I do not like about some Tuggers. I would suggest that Tuggers try to be more respectful of the developer salespeople. It seems just as offensive to go to a sales presentation with the intention of playing games with another human being as for them to lie to us intentionally. It is not amusing to me when I read Tuggers bragging on here about playing games with salespeople just to snag $100. Then we wonder why people have animosity toward the resale market. If you go to a sales presentation, I would suggest being respectful and listening and getting your rewards and leaving. You know in advance that you are likely to get a hard hitting sales pitch. You are voting with your feet for maltreatment and bullying. If you want to make a difference, it makes sense to politiely educate consumers before they purchase from developers.


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## dayooper (Oct 28, 2018)

topcop400 said:


> I’m the rare breed who has only purchased resale.  I was fortunate enough to have a friend who went down the path of developer purchase and subsequently found the resale market.  She told me she’d pinch my head off if I purchased from a developer.
> 
> 
> Is there animosity toward me from those who first purchased from a developer?



I’m in the same boat. We went to Vegas with friends and loved where we stayed (HGVC on the Boulevard) and thought about owning. They bought from the developer years ago, but mentioned resale. We did our research and bought resale with never doing an “owners update.”


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## BocaBoy (Oct 28, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> I suspect the percentage of resale owners is quite low, perhaps lower than 5% overall.


I would agree with this 5% figure.  Aside from people on TUG, I think I have yet to meet a resale owner other than one person I sold a unit to.


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## TravelTime (Oct 28, 2018)

BocaBoy said:


> I would agree with this 5% figure.  Aside from people on TUG, I think I have yet to meet a resale owner other than one person I sold a unit to.



I suspect you are right. Probably less than 5% actually. I think timeshares still have such a bad reputation and resale agents also have a bad reputation. People are very skeptical of resale agents and it feels safer and more professional to buy direct. I still think that too, even after making many resale purchases. Many resale purchases do not go smoothly and many resale agents, if not most, are not specialists and provide bad information. To buy resale or direct, you do need to be prepared for hiccups and surprises along the way.


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## TUGBrian (Oct 28, 2018)

that is a good point!

Id still bet FAR more people were screwed over by a developer retail sale than from a resale!


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## Fredflintstone (Oct 28, 2018)

TUGBrian said:


> Arda figures say 9 million "households" own timeshares in the US.
> 
> if I had to guess, id say less than 10% were resale owners(and of that 10%, probably 95% only discovered resale after buying retail first)



I think you are bang on there Brian. And I bet if the 90 percent realized that they can get the same thing free or next to free they would have a coronary. 

That’s why the sales team at these resorts need to pump everyone up into an impulsive frenzy and hope to God they don’t see or use the recession limits or come to TUG or Ebay.


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## Fredflintstone (Oct 28, 2018)

What surprises me is resorts saddled with defaulted and abandoned timeshares don’t put them up on eBay or TUG just to get a new owner paying MFs.  If there are any, I applaud them as it’s better to unload free then keep expecting other owners to pay the MFs in them. 


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## controller1 (Oct 28, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> What surprises me is resorts saddled with defaulted and abandoned timeshares don’t put them up on eBay or TUG just to get a new owner paying MFs.  If there are any, I applaud them as it’s better to unload free then keep expecting other owners to pay the MFs in them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Why get a new owner paying a MF immediately when the resort can wait a year and perhaps get $45K upfront and a new owner paying a MF.


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## Fredflintstone (Oct 28, 2018)

controller1 said:


> Why get a new owner paying a MF immediately when the resort can wait a year and perhaps get $45K upfront and a new owner paying a MF.



True. But then other owners shouldn’t be saddled with covering the MF while they wait to get more $$$. A bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush.


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## controller1 (Oct 28, 2018)

Fredflintstone said:


> True. But then other owners shouldn’t be saddled with covering the MF while they wait to get more $$$. A bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



That would be true if the sales side of the business was in existence to serve the owners.  But they exist to serve the developer!


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## Fredflintstone (Oct 28, 2018)

controller1 said:


> That would be true if the sales side of the business was in existence to serve the owners.  But they exist to serve the developer!



Yes...that’s true. The owners are just the locked in payors. They don’t matter once they signed up. Sigh.  


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## TUGBrian (Oct 28, 2018)

we actually get a handful of HOA/board members at independent resorts that list their excess inventory on TUG!


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## Fredflintstone (Oct 28, 2018)

TUGBrian said:


> we actually get a handful of HOA/board members at independent resorts that list their excess inventory on TUG!



That’s the responsible, right thing to do.  Kudos to those resorts!


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## Panina (Oct 28, 2018)

TUGBrian said:


> we actually get a handful of HOA/board members at independent resorts that list their excess inventory on TUG!



I need to push this with one of my resorts.  It is the way to go.


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## DannyTS (Oct 28, 2018)

i often wonder how much would the developers' business "suffer" if they allowed all the rights (or most of them) to be transmitted to the resale owners. Is there any evidence that this is hurting HGVC for example? I read the HGVC FB forums and they are full of people updating their ownerships and buying for the first time

I wonder how much is business calculation and how much is pure meanness from Marriott, Vistana etc. It also shows how little information and choice people have before buying. If i were to buy from the developer and given the choice, I would like to be able to carry  all the rights of my contract if i ever sell in order to have the highest resale value possible. I am not sure how this policy helps developers but i know for a fact that it is hurting owners.


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## Saaz124 (Oct 28, 2018)

Several times at WKV I have felt ostracized by other owners when they hear I bought resale.  It's like I'm "one of those people."  I feel like telling them I'm "one of those people with thousands of dollars still in the bank."  I have bought DVC twice direct from the Mouse and have never thought this way about resale members there.  I don't get it.


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## klpca (Oct 29, 2018)

I'm a 100% resale owner but I don't mention it when we travel. No one wants to hear that. (Unless someone tells me that owning timeshares is a dumb idea. Then I have no problem letting them know why I am a fan.)

This thread made me think about how I heard about resale. It took me awhile but I finally remembered. My next door neighbor bought at Marriott Desert Spring Villas in the early 90's maybe. I remember that they bought from the developer, but a few years later one of their friends bought a resale unit that was advertised in the LA Times classifieds. (Dark ages, lol). We resisted any timeshares until 2006 or 2007 when we went to Maui on a promo. Even though we knew better, we bought at WKORVN. But I had joined TUG prior to our trip and knew about rescinding, so when we came home we rescinded immediately. I always liked the timesharing concept but the numbers didn't make sense to me until the 2010-2011 downturn when everything was pennies on the dollar. In retrospect I wish that I had bought more during that time.


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## geist1223 (Oct 29, 2018)

Part of the problem with the Developer or small timeshare where it is a Deeded Week and not Points is the time, effort, and expense of doing a legal foreclosure. More timeshares should offer the opportunity of Deed in lieu of foreclosure. This is quicker and cheaper. Then the timeshare can get the Deed out for resale quicker. The time share will never get all the delinquent MF's back.


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## Fredflintstone (Oct 29, 2018)

geist1223 said:


> Part of the problem with the Developer or small timeshare where it is a Deeded Week and not Points is the time, effort, and expense of doing a legal foreclosure. More timeshares should offer the opportunity of Deed in lieu of foreclosure. This is quicker and cheaper. Then the timeshare can get the Deed out for resale quicker. The time share will never get all the delinquent MF's back.



Totally agree. However what I find is they offer a deed in lieu for a fee and some of those fees are 1500 dollars or more. As many states have non judicial, anti deficiency laws, it’s better to go fee free, let them foreclose and have no deficiency making the cost to the resort to foreclose higher. They are much better off taking the deed in lieu fee free instead of paying for a non judicial foreclosure.

In short, the time to be greedy is over. At this point, the owner doesn’t care what they do or threaten to do so they are better off raising the white flag and offering a deed in lieu option free.

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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 29, 2018)

Is there a list of states that have these laws? What state should you use to determine this e.g.

Your state of residence?
The state where the timeshare is located?
The state where the system is located ie Florida?


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## Fredflintstone (Oct 29, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Is there a list of states that have these laws? What state should you use to determine this e.g.
> 
> Your state of residence?
> The state where the timeshare is located?
> The state where the system is located ie Florida?



You can check through a site called nolo.com. I find you have to almost check on a state by state basis.

The timeshare laws are based on where the timeshare is located; not where you live.


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## Fredflintstone (Oct 29, 2018)

Here is an example. This one pertains to California, a non judicial, anti deficiency state for timeshares.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/california-timeshare-foreclosure-right-cancel-laws.html




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## grrrah (Oct 29, 2018)

I'll jump in on this friendly discussion and try to take the developer's purchase side.

We all can agree that a mandatory resale purchase is the best value.  No disagreements here.  But this discussion started based on Lagunamar.  When discussing resale vs. non-mandatory direct purchases, we are talking about two very different products with different rules.  Many (I hope) that purchase direct have expendable $$$, and are usually open to spending more for conveniences and luxury.  I get that many don't know about the resale side yet, so straight up telling them that you paide XX% less for the same product can ruffle their feathers.  As with any conversation with a stranger, one needs to ease their way in and know when to bail if things head in the wrong direction.

Now going back to the resale side, of course the mandatory resale purchases provide the biggest benefit of the Star Options.  Just for disclosure.  I bought direct without regret.  I plan to buy more via resale, but glad I'll have my direct one also.


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## DannyTS (Oct 29, 2018)

grrrah said:


> I'll jump in on this friendly discussion and try to take the developer's purchase side.
> 
> We all can agree that a mandatory resale purchase is the best value.  No disagreements here.  But this discussion started based on Lagunamar.  When discussing resale vs. non-mandatory direct purchases, we are talking about two very different products with different rules.  Many (I hope) that purchase direct have expendable $$$, and are usually open to spending more for conveniences and luxury.  I get that many don't know about the resale side yet, so straight up telling them that you paide XX% less for the same product can ruffle their feathers.  As with any conversation with a stranger, one needs to ease their way in and know when to bail if things head in the wrong direction.
> 
> Now going back to the resale side, of course the mandatory resale purchases provide the biggest benefit of the Star Options.  Just for disclosure.  I bought direct without regret.  I plan to buy more via resale, but glad I'll have my direct one also.



I think we all agree that the distinction between  mandatory and voluntary is for the initiated. I do not think that the developer told the original buyers that, because the product they were buying was voluntary, the resale market value would be virtually zero (or not zero in case of WLR but certainly much lower than if the resort had been mandatory).


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## CalGalTraveler (Oct 29, 2018)

The majority of people we know own 1 or 2 units from the developer. They have enjoyed their units for years. We also know 1 that purchased resale only. So consistent with this thread.

Understanding and benefitting from the right resale purchase takes a LOT of work.

Some people enjoy the hunt, some find resale as the only way to afford a brand name time share, many are not inclined to spend time on the research or want a risk free transaction, or uneducated. It's the uneducated that get (rightfully) upset.

Developers probably  like it that resale has perceived risks and people get scammed.


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## Fredflintstone (Oct 29, 2018)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The majority of people we know own 1 or 2 units from the developer. They have enjoyed their units for years. We also know 1 that purchased resale.
> 
> Understanding and benefitting from the right resale purchase takes a LOT of work.
> 
> ...



I can see one case where buying direct would be worth it. Lets say you find a resort you love and all you want to do is go there and only there every year. If the place is a high demand Disney as an example, you will pay a lot resale anyway. Also you scour and just cant find resale due to the resorts high demand and you find exchanging very difficult too. In that case, buying direct makes sense. 


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## TravelTime (Oct 30, 2018)

One thing that is interesting, since Disney was mentioned, is once resorts are sold out, Disney will tell you to buy resale. I had to buy Grand Cal resale because Disney’s waiting list was really long - at least 2+ years if ever. My Disney rep told me to buy resale. However, after a little begging, he put me at the top of his VGF list to buy Grand Floridian from him even though the wait for buying VGF direct was 6 months to a year. Other Disney reps told me to buy Grand Floridian resale because the wait was too long direct but my rep called me back a week later with two small VGF contracts totaling what I wanted. I also bought some small contracts direct for Poly and Animal Kingdom since the price difference was small and buying direct from Disney is instant. The points are in your account that evening. As we know, buying resale takes about 60 days and sometimes longer if there are problems.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 5, 2018)

I don't think resale buyers have any reason to be shamed. For those that think that resale is gaming the market some good responses might be:

_"If resale didn't exist, who would buy your timeshare when you want to stop paying maintenance fees and are ready to sell?"

"Sure it's a low price, however what we paid is what the market dictates. We are committing to pay the same annual maintenance fees  as everyone else, and are assuming risk that we may not get our purchase price back when we sell; the low price compensates for this risk." _


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## TravelTime (Nov 5, 2018)

I am not sure anyone thinks buying resale is gaming the system. I also do not think you need to respond to anyone who questions it. In fact, if you do not bring it up, no one will ever know you bought resale. I think the issue is people who pay full retail may feel ripped off when they learn there is a resale market and they paid 4 to 10 times more. Then they will go into justification mode and try to argue with others purely to justify why their purchase made more sense. Think about our current political system and why people will justify who they voted for. It is the same thing with purchase decisions. People need to rationalize decisions and defend them. Very few people want to admit to an error that costs a lot and makes them look dumb.


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## cvelasco (Nov 11, 2018)

PamMo said:


> I think your sales person did a great job of mixing up the timeshare and hotel sides of the Marriott/Vistana merger to get you interested in buying! The Marriott/Starwood _hotel_ points programs have been fully integrated, and you can now reserve at any hotel in the system with loyalty _hotel_ points. You can also convert your StarOptions and Marriott Destination Club points into hotel points (at a poor conversion rate), but you cannot use Vistana StarOptions for Marriott Vacation Club timeshares or vice versa right now. Maybe we'll see it in the future, but no one knows if, when, or how that will happen.
> 
> You were smart to walk away from this "deal" and get your $100!


Hi I need help. We just purchase this "UPGRADE" yesterday. We were told we could use this points program to rent any resort. It cost us 15000 to convert our 3 weeks to this system. We were told that with this program our kids would not be burdened with our timeshare later and would not have to accept our timeshare upon death.They said this flex type program will not be offered at the price they are offering now. Sold as more flexible to use points instead of options for hotels resorts and flights with Inerval instead of Starwood. I am having buyers remorse.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 11, 2018)

cvelasco said:


> Hi I need help. We just purchase this "UPGRADE" yesterday. We were told we could use this points program to rent any resort. It cost us 15000 to convert our 3 weeks to this system. We were told that with this program our kids would not be burdened with our timeshare later and would not have to accept our timeshare upon death.They said this flex type program will not be offered at the price they are offering now. Sold as more flexible to use points instead of options for hotels resorts and flights with Inerval instead of Starwood. I am having buyers remorse.



Your children will not be obligated. Total lie.

Hurry before deadline passes. It would be wise to wait and see what Marriott acquisition of Vistana does to programs before buying any more.

Check your contract on rescind deadline and instructions. Do this now because you dont have much time or will be locked in.


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## cvelasco (Nov 11, 2018)

Thank you we have 10 days and I will be sending a letter. So heirs with flex program is the same.?They said because of the rofr they are not obligated to accept timeshare. This was the only reason we bought. Thank you


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## PamMo (Nov 11, 2018)

cvelasco said:


> ...We were told that with this program our kids would not be burdened with our timeshare later and would not have to accept our timeshare upon death...



This drives me crazy. They will tell a potential buyer WHATEVER they can come up with to close a sale. I haven't heard this one before, though. _Pay us extra for this great package so your kids won't be burdened with it when you die??? _ They usually tout how great it is to leave it to your kids!

And, ROFR only benefits them. They can, but don't ever _have_ to exercise it. (When they say it's beneficial to your heirs, that's garbage.)

Your buyers remorse is spot on. Rescind. Rescind. Rescind.


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## CalGalTraveler (Nov 11, 2018)

Maybe they dont have to take it back but that is not your heirs problem. It becomes the HOAs problem.

Why would a trust points program be any different? Is it because they manage the trust? I'll bet their lawyers have that one figured to their benefit too.


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## alexadeparis (Nov 11, 2018)

Your heirs don’t have to accept ANY timeshare they don’t want. They can simply decline that part of the inheritance. No one can be FORCED to own property they don’t want.


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## dioxide45 (Nov 11, 2018)

Depending on where your deeded weeks are that you were signing back to them, they may be worth more to your heirs than the Sheraton Flex package you bought to replace them with.


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## alohakevin (Nov 12, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I would guess that once people have bought through developers, if you tell them about resale, they will be majorly pissed off, and justifiebly so. They were ripped off! However, I do not think this will lead them to resale if it is too late to rescind. I suspect they will end up being turned off about timeshares and feel screwed yet be  be happy with the extra benefits they get as a direct owner. I suspect it is it better not to talk to people about about how you acquired your timeshares and how much you paid. It is like bragging. I do not think we should judge people either way.



On the other hand it may motivate to be a more knowledgeable consumer. We learned the hardway with first purchase then learned the system. It does amaze me how many owners with years of experience dont really understand how it works. Go Tug.


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