# Restaurant Refuses To Honor Gift Card -- I'm Still Dumbstruck



## Hoc (Sep 15, 2008)

I'm still shocked at the whole situation here.  Yesterday, my girlfriend decided that she wanted to go out for breakfast.  We decided to go to a local restaurant where I had a gift card, in order to save money.

I had bought the gift card 4 years ago for $100, and used it once last October for about $27.  My girlfriend remembers at that time that the waitress showed me the receipt and said, "you still have $XXX (she can't remember the amount) left on it."

In California, gift cards can't expire.  What's more, the card said on its face: "Does not expire in California," and "treat this card like cash."

Obviously, they refused to take it.  They said that they had thrown out the machine that could show what was left on it about a year ago.  I told them that they could accept it as payment for the meal and I would not use it again, or they could refund me the approximately $73 left on the card.  They refused.  I called the manager over, who said, "I don't know what to do."  I told her that she should either accept the card or refund my money.  I then wrote up a couple of lines on a piece of paper that said that I tried to use the card, and they refused to allow me to do it.  

Her response: "I'm not signing nothing."  I told her to call the owner and resolve it, because either she would need to give me a written statement saying that she was rejecting the card, or otherwise take the card or refund the balance.

She made a call and then everyone proceeded to ignore me for the next 15 minutes.  I went up to the checkout register with the card and the paper.  Suddenly, a police officer showed up.  They had called the police!!!

I explained to him what was going on, and he said to her, "Why don't you just sign the paper?"  She responded, "I don't have to sign nothing."  I told him that I just wanted evidence that they refused to honor their card, and then I would sue them.  He said that he would write a police report, which would provide the evidence.

That satisfied me, so I paid with my American Express (no tip, obviously).  Yesterday afternoon I wrote a letter to the owner explaining the situation and advised that the conduct was an Unfair Business Practice under California law, entitling me to damages in a minimum amount of $1,000.  I offered to settle the matter for half, $500.

In response, I got an email suggesting that I pulled the card out of the trash, falsely stating that the Restaurant never sold cards in excess of $100, and that I "must have" won the card (which allegedly could not have been worth more than $20) "in a raffle."  That prompted me to go digging through my credit card records in 2004, and lo and behold, I found the statement with the charge to the restaurant for $106.50.  I advised her of that and that my settlement offer was still open until next Monday.

She then responded by calling me "a bold faced liar," and stating that my $106.50 receipt must have been for food (this in a restaurant where the average entree is $8.95), and threatening to have me criminally prosecuted for "defrauding an inkeeper."

I have never sued anyone on my own behalf before, but I don't like bullies or liars, and I finally had enough.  I probably would have let the matter drop if she had just signed the paper.  Not worth it.  But calling the police and threatening to use them again to gain advantage in a civil matter, well that's extortion in California.

What a bully.  I sued the company today, for $73 plus a $1,000 penalty under the law.  I will be representing myself.  The company must hire a lawyer, because it's a corporation.  Just to defend itself it will have to pay several thousand dollars in legal fees, which it cannot recover even if it is successful.  What a stupid move by an obviously stupid person.


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## djs (Sep 15, 2008)

Best of luck to you, hopefully you will win and the manager who is clearly well schooled in the art of customer service will be out a job.


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## rapmarks (Sep 15, 2008)

I have started wrapping my gift cards in the last receipt when i put them away.  When I used my Appleby's gift card, I discovered that I had lost $8 between my previous meal and  the next time I used it.  noone could explain it to me, and the management never answered my emails about it.


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## Beaglemom3 (Sep 15, 2008)

They picked the wrong person.

A little local press would be great. Nothing like word of mouth.

Sorry that this happened to you, but you are in a position to prevent it from happening again to someone who, perhaps, cannot advocate for themselves.

I would not want to go up aganist you across the aisle. I've got 5 bucks on you !


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## Blondie (Sep 15, 2008)

Good for you. In any courtroom this woman will look like the thieving dunce she is. Keep us posted. After you win can you sue her for slander??


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## ricoba (Sep 15, 2008)

Bixby Cafe in Long Beach did almost the same thing once to me, except this time it was just a straight coupon.  They refused to honor the coupon, which was still clearly valid (the use by date was still on the coupon).  They said they didn't use that vendor any longer, and so they didn't have to honor the coupon.  To honor this it would have simply been a buck or so...but they wanted to ignorant about it over a dollar.  So we left, no tip, and never went back.  The place was burned in a fire a year or so after our last visit., and somehow I felt a little bit of small satisfaction.:ignore:


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## Wonka (Sep 15, 2008)

I sure hope you win $1100.  What a joke that restaurant must be, and with their bad attitude they surely deserve to lose.  I would alert the press, why not?  They chose to embarass you by calling the police in a public place, rather than simply settling for a small amount.

What restaurant was this?  I'd like to send them an email.


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## susieq (Sep 15, 2008)

Hoc said:


> I called the manager over, who said, "I don't know what to do."  I told her that she should either accept the card or refund my money.  I then wrote up a couple of lines on a piece of paper that said that I tried to use the card, and they refused to allow me to do it.





ricoba said:


> Bixby Cafe in Long Beach did almost the same thing once to me, except this time it was just a straight coupon.  They refused to honor the coupon, which was still clearly valid (the use by date was still on the coupon).  They said they didn't use that vendor any longer, and so they didn't have to honor the coupon.  To honor this it would have simply been a buck or so...




Same person??  ~ You go ~ win your case and give them all the bad publicity that you can!!  

Sue


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## dgdbloe (Sep 15, 2008)

Don't back down and good luck. Keep us posted


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## DeniseM (Sep 15, 2008)

ricoba said:


> Bixby Cafe in Long Beach did almost the same thing once to me, except this time it was just a straight coupon.  They refused to honor the coupon, which was still clearly valid (the use by date was still on the coupon).  They said they didn't use that vendor any longer, and so they didn't have to honor the coupon.  To honor this it would have simply been a buck or so...but they wanted to ignorant about it over a dollar.  So we left, no tip, and never went back.  The place was burned in a fire a year or so after our last visit., and somehow I felt a little bit of small satisfaction.:ignore:



This happens quite often with Entertaiment Book coupons.  I found out that the E book automatically puts a merchant in their next book (without a new contract for the next year) unless the merchant specifically cancels.


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## ricoba (Sep 15, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> This happens quite often with Entertaiment Book coupons.  I found out that the E book automatically puts a merchant in their next book (without a new contract for the next year) unless the merchant specifically cancels.



This was a discount coupon 10% I think on the back of a Von's receipt.

I've only purchased the Entertainment book one time here, and never found it really to be of much value to us.


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## MRSFUSSY (Sep 15, 2008)

Several years ago my husband received a gift card for $100.as a birthday gift.  We went to the resturant about 10 days later and were told that the gift card was no good.  The restaurant had changed hands during that short period & the new owner would not honor it.  We never told this to the person who had given the card to my husband. I wonder how many other people this happened to?


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## dmharris (Sep 15, 2008)

It amazes me how service businesses forget what their business is.  SERVICE!  They have lost a couple customers, created ill-will and the word-of-mouth will be damaging.  The manager was short-sighted.  She should be fired, but more and more I see this.  What happened to "the customer is always right?"


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## Egret1986 (Sep 15, 2008)

*Unbelievable!!!! Well, I do believe YOU*

I hope you do reap satisfaction out of this.  It is truly amazing that businesses conduct themselves in this way.  We have a local program on our news channel called "10 On Your Side", that brings things like this to the forefront for other folks to be made aware of.  Not accepting gift cards and coupons from the business is wacko.  It leaves a bad taste in the patron's mouth and repeat business has been nipped in the bud.  Also, the negative word of mouth also can stop otherwise new or current customers from patronizing the establishment.  The potential in lost revenue would far exceed the amount (especially the amount of that little coupon).  Please do let us know what happens!!  Get em!!  Get em!!  Get em!!


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## pjrose (Sep 15, 2008)

Grrrrr...my blood pressure is up just reading this!  I echo everything the other posters above said.  Good for you for sticking up for yourself.


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## normab (Sep 15, 2008)

Seems to me that customer service is lacking in many establishments nowadays.  Several times we have been in situations where  we could not believe the reaction of the manager when there was an issue.  They lose a good customer when they are unreasonable and or/lack a customer service attitude.  Sometimes they seem to be arguing a point instead of letting the customer be right when it costs them very little.

I applaud you for taking the time to take them to court.


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## gmarine (Sep 15, 2008)

I loved hearing that your fighting them. Well done.  Please post the outcome.


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## Icarus (Sep 16, 2008)

Hoc. No tip?

-David


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## Hoc (Sep 16, 2008)

Blondie said:


> Good for you. In any courtroom this woman will look like the thieving dunce she is. Keep us posted. After you win can you sue her for slander??



I wouldn't, because it's not worth it.  But, technically, because she communicated her abusive feelings only to me, it's not slander.  It becomes slander only if she tells someone else.


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## Hoc (Sep 16, 2008)

Beaglemom3 said:


> A little local press would be great. Nothing like word of mouth.



Not my style.  I'll deal with it directly between her and me.  I really dislike bullies, but you can bet that everything I do will be without ability for her to sue me.


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## Hoc (Sep 16, 2008)

ricoba said:


> Bixby Cafe in Long Beach did almost the same thing once to me, except this time it was just a straight coupon.



Coupons are treated differently under California law.  But California Civil Code Section 1749.5 provides that a gift card or gift certificate that is purchased cannot expire.


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## Hoc (Sep 16, 2008)

susieq said:


> Same person??



No, not Bixby Cafe.


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## Hoc (Sep 16, 2008)

Icarus said:


> Hoc. No tip?



Yeah, the tip is don't try to bully someone who knows the law, knows how to exercise his rights, all to steal his money and save $25.

The waitress told us that several people had already tried to use their cards and were refused.  So, this at least might cause them to think twice in the future before they try to steal the money others paid them for their gift cards.


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## Icarus (Sep 16, 2008)

The waitress gets the tip, not the restaurant or the manager.

-David


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## dougp26364 (Sep 16, 2008)

Hoc said:


> Yeah, the tip is don't try to bully someone who knows the law, knows how to exercise his rights, all to steal his money and save $25.
> 
> The waitress told us that several people had already tried to use their cards and were refused.  So, this at least might cause them to think twice in the future before they try to steal the money others paid them for their gift cards.




It's to bad you can't locate the others who lost money and help them get their just deserts as well. 

Glad your taking them to task on this. Most of us don't have a firm enough grasp on the law to know how to proceed and the business just gets away with this bad practice.

What do you think the odds are that anyone from corporate will even show up? If I were a betting man, I'd almost bet that they won't show up and judgement will be rendered in their absence.


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## Icarus (Sep 16, 2008)

dougp26364 said:


> What do you think the odds are that anyone from corporate will even show up? If I were a betting man, I'd almost bet that they won't show up and judgement will be rendered in their absence.



In that case it would be worth it to pay the sheriff to do a till tap. I'd like to see that.

http://www.ocsd.org/divisions/court_operations/civil_process_services/collection_money_judgements/

-David


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## djs (Sep 16, 2008)

Icarus said:


> The waitress gets the tip, not the restaurant or the manager.
> 
> -David



True, but if the waitstaff feel that managment/ownership is taking money out of their pockets by the way gift cards/certificates are honored, maybe things will change.  After all, management has to interact with the waitstaff every day.


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## Kay H (Sep 16, 2008)

You go , Hoc.  You were treated very rudely for asking for something that is legally yours.  I hope you win .  Please let us know the ouecome.


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## ctreelmom (Sep 16, 2008)

Good for you, Hoc.   I get so riled up over stupidity like this.  My only comment as a former waitress involves not leaving a tip.  Was your server only doing what his/her boss (the manager) was telling him/her to do?  If so, then it's really not fair to stiff him/her, unless, of course, you got bad service to boot.   I see you were ignored for 15 minutes.  If the server was doing the ignoring, then I wouldn't have tipped either, but it's important to remember that often the servers' hands are tied and they don't have the authority to do the right thing, even though they may want to.


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## CMF (Sep 16, 2008)

*Hoc - you're my hero!*

No offense Mr. Dave M.  

Charles


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## dougp26364 (Sep 16, 2008)

Icarus said:


> In that case it would be worth it to pay the sheriff to do a till tap. I'd like to see that.
> 
> http://www.ocsd.org/divisions/court_operations/civil_process_services/collection_money_judgements/
> 
> -David




I believe that would fit the term that revenge is a dish best served cold.


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## Passepartout (Sep 16, 2008)

Whenever I use a gift certificate/card, I overtip because I know it's extra hassle for the waitstaff. I'm pretty sure the waitress in Hoc's case was all too aware of the situation and that it didn't involve her. In every restaurant, waitstaff get stiffed for reasons that have nothing to do with them- bad food- crying child nearby- water glass not refilled full enough, soon enough. They don't like it, but it's just the way it is. Even if my beef had been with the manager, I likely would have left something for the waitress, but that's just me, and after a cooling off period, I might try to find a way to, perhaps surreptitiously, or through a friend, slip in and make it up to her.

Hoc, I agree 100% that the manager was out of line, especially with the accusatory tone and name calling. She needs to be taken to task and it appears that California law has provided the teeth. Good luck!

Seems to me that if a business makes the commitment to issue gift cards/certificates, that it is incumbent on them to honor them ad infinitum, and not 'throw away' the card reader.

Jim Ricks


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## Icarus (Sep 16, 2008)

djs said:


> True, but if the waitstaff feel that managment/ownership is taking money out of their pockets by the way gift cards/certificates are honored, maybe things will change.  After all, management has to interact with the waitstaff every day.



I guess you never worked for tips. I don't think a place like this cares much about its customers or its staff.

-David


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## vacationhopeful (Sep 16, 2008)

In NJ, when the Sheriff "taps the till drawer", their cut is added onto the debt which is collected.  So $1,000 becomes $1,100 out of the drawer.

However, the sheriff in NJ only goes out M-F, nonholidays, and between 8-4PM.  But the NJ court allows a "public auction", so a $15,000 plug in cooler ( not attached to real property) can be sold to highest bidder of $1 (for example) and the debt is reduced by only 90 cents.  Now, that would cost the business owner WAY more to replace their necessary operating stuff.


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## Blondie (Sep 16, 2008)

I disagree about not involving the press- I'd want to alert other patrons who may be considering gift card purchases here about the restaurant's practices. This is exactly the sort of thing a reporter can dig into and for good reason- protecting consumers. About 12 years ago there was a restaurant near Manchester, NH. A couple had put a deposit down for their wedding. Some weeks before the ceremony one of them was killed in a car accident. The restaurant REFUSED to give the deposit back citing the same old "we held the function room and turned others away blah blah blah nonsense." Finally the press got ahold of the story and you better believe that money got refunded. But, that's not the best part. The place ended up going out of business because people were so outraged they refused to go there. Biggest mistake of thier lives not giving the money back- and for what? Too bad some folks cannot see how bad customer service results in no customers. You just never let an unhappy customer walk away from your establishment.


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## DonM (Sep 16, 2008)

Blondie said:


> I disagree about not involving the press- I'd want to alert other patrons who may be considering gift card purchases here about the restaurant's practices. This is exactly the sort of thing a reporter can dig into and for good reason- protecting consumers. About 12 years ago there was a restaurant near Manchester, NH. A couple had put a deposit down for their wedding. Some weeks before the ceremony one of them was killed in a car accident. The restaurant REFUSED to give the deposit back citing the same old "we held the function room and turned others away blah blah blah nonsense." Finally the press got ahold of the story and you better believe that money got refunded. But, that's not the best part. The place ended up going out of business because people were so outraged they refused to go there. Biggest mistake of thier lives not giving the money back- and for what? Too bad some folks cannot see how bad customer service results in no customers. You just never let an unhappy customer walk away from your establishment.



Wow- I just about disagree with everything you just said.

First off, The example you gave of the restaurant refusing to return a deposit bears no resemblance to the OP's situation.

Second- The restaurant had a contract with a couple to have a wedding reception. The restaurantor didn't do anything but try and run his business. It wasn't his fault that one of them died. It's tragic but not his fault. It may have been good PR to return the funds, but he wasn't legally bound to- (unless you didn't mention that they were legally entitled to a return of their money by contract?) I think the use of the press in this situation was uncalled for and almost certainly run by the paper just to sensationalize the situation.

Lastly- you seem to almost sadistically enjoy the fact that the business failed. How many people were dependent on that business for their well being?


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## Beaglemom3 (Sep 16, 2008)

When I mentioned the press, I meant the local paper, "home town newsy type",  doing a human interest/consumer beware type of article. The restaurant will not want the AG's Consumer Protection office to get wind of this type of article on this action, or, non-action, in this case.
Just a suggestion.

Hoc, no matter what tack you take, slam - dunk !


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## Icarus (Sep 16, 2008)

Blondie said:


> I disagree about not involving the press



lol, disagree with whom? hoc? It's his gift card.

-David


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## Rose Pink (Sep 16, 2008)

dougp26364 said:


> It's to bad you can't locate the others who lost money and help them get their just deserts as well.


 
Class action suit?  That could be interesting.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 16, 2008)

dougp26364 said:


> It's to bad you can't locate the others who lost money and help them get their just deserts as well.



Funny how things escalate.  From Hoc's original post he might have been satisfied had he received just their desserts.  Now he wants their just desserts.


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## Hoc (Sep 17, 2008)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Funny how things escalate.  From Hoc's original post he might have been satisfied had he received just their desserts.  Now he wants their just desserts.



Pretty much the case.  I would have let them take the card and just comp the meal.  About $12 cost to them, since they were running a 2-for-1 special in the paper and everyone who was there was using the coupon.

On tipping the waitress, this is clearly the kind of establishment who takes all of all the tips and gives out a percentage of them only to the wait staff.  No reason to allow that.

On the newspaper, my goal is perhaps a reckoning, but it's mainly to get what I deserve and make sure they get what they deserve.  When you get the press involved, sometimes things get out of control and whatever the result (in whosever favor the end result falls), it's often not fair or just.

On a class action, my goal is to make them pay, not to spend a bunch of money on a lawsuit myself.  Class actions are very expensive.  This lawsuit cost me $180, which I will get back from them if I win even a dollar.  However, it will cost them several thousand, even if they appear and win.  That's because a corporation can't appear in court, except through a lawyer.

On whether someone "from corporate" will show up, it won't get that far.  First, they have to hire a lawyer, since a corporation can't represent itself in court.  Second, they will have to file a written answer to my complaint -- about $600 or so in lawyer's fees and $180 to them.  Then, they will have to respond to my motion to make them pay for my service fees, which they will lose -- about $700 in legal fees and about $225 paid to me for the process server.  Then, they will have to answer the discovery I will propound -- about $1,200 in legal fees.  Then, they will likely have to respond to a motion to compel that I will make because they did not answer the discovery properly -- about $2,000 in legal fees, and possibly a fine paid to me.  After that, it will really get expensive for them.  Motions, appearances, etc.  All because they were unwilling to lose $12 on a comped meal and hoped to keep my $100 without giving me the service for which I paid.  Maybe somewhere down the line, eight months or so into the case, I'll make a statutory offer to settle for $72.  If they accept it, I can also recover my costs.  If they reject it, and I recover anything more than $72 in a trial, they will also have to pay interest, penalties, all of my other costs and expenses, and probably even the cost of an expert witness whom I will hire to explain how they could have found out the balance on the card, even if they had thrown out their machine.  If I lose, well, I already spent my $180, and I will have to pay them their $180, but it will have cost them several thousand dollars that they can't get back.

If nothing else, it might cause them to reconsider before trying to steal someone else's money after they sold them a gift card.


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## Icarus (Sep 17, 2008)

Hoc said:


> On tipping the waitress, this is clearly the kind of establishment who takes all of all the tips and gives out a percentage of them only to the wait staff.



What? They can't do that, Hoc.

-David


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## Hoc (Sep 17, 2008)

Icarus said:


> What? They can't do that, Hoc.
> 
> -David



Yeah, and they can't sell gift cards and then refuse to honor them, claiming they are expired. 

Some underhanded restaurants do this.  My girlfriend worked at one that did, and she told me that most Korean restaurants do it.


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## Icarus (Sep 17, 2008)

Hoc said:


> My girlfriend worked at one that did, and she told me that most Korean restaurants do it.



She didn't stay there long, did she? Did she take them to court?

Isn't this place a chain restaurant?

-David


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## pcgirl54 (Sep 17, 2008)

This is why it is wise to keep receipts and records. Thank goodness for Amex. 

I hope you win. I would be outraged. You have the police report and had the presence of mind to get something in writing signed.

Now when you win that $1073.00 you can take your girfriend to a better breakfast in a great location.

What an idiot that person was.


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## ctreelmom (Sep 17, 2008)

Icarus said:


> What? They can't do that, Hoc.
> 
> -David



Sure they can, David.  My first waitressing job in high school was for a family-type chain restaurant and we pooled our tips--money was put into a tip jar under the counter and every pay period, you got a check for your hourly wages and a separate tip check--the amount was based on the hours you worked.  However, in this case, one of the servers was in charge of figuring all that out--management didn't touch the tips, but I bet in some places they do.


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## Mimi39 (Sep 17, 2008)

_Her response: "I'm not signing nothing."_ How about her blatant use of poor English?

One point about customer service is that if you do everything right the customer won't mention it to anyone, but make a major error like this and the customer will tell everyone they know.  I bet this place has already lost a lot of business because of your experience.  If she would have said that she couldn't honor the card but the meal would be complimentary and taken the card from you it would have been a "win-win" situation for everyone.


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## Icarus (Sep 17, 2008)

ctreelmom said:


> Sure they can, David.  My first waitressing job in high school was for a family-type chain restaurant and we pooled our tips--money was put into a tip jar under the counter and every pay period, you got a check for your hourly wages and a separate tip check--the amount was based on the hours you worked.  However, in this case, one of the servers was in charge of figuring all that out--management didn't touch the tips, but I bet in some places they do.



I've worked at restaurants that pooled tips. The employees were the only ones responsible for handling the tips, and they were always split at the end of the shift. Management never touched it. Even in your case, the employees were responsible for the daily count and handling of the cash.

Hoc is describing a different practice and stating that the management keeps a portion of the tips.

-David


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## gorevs9 (Sep 17, 2008)

Passepartout said:


> In every restaurant, waitstaff get stiffed for reasons that have nothing to do with them- bad food- crying child nearby- water glass not refilled full enough, soon enough. They don't like it, but it's just the way it is. Even if my beef had been with the manager, I likely would have left something for the waitress...


Except on rare occasions, where the service was horrendous, I would always tip the usual 18%-20%.  

I know I'm going to get slammed by waiters and waitresses around the world, but one of my pet-peeves is that the tip is ultimately based on the price of the meal vs. the service received.  A waiter/waitress would provide the same amount of service regardless of whether the person ordered a $40 entree or an $8 salad. 

I'm a bit naive with tipping policies around the world.  Some restaurants in Aruba and St. Marteen charged a "service charge", but it was unclear if this was considered a "tip".  I cases like this, if I had exceptional service, I would personally give the waiter/waitress some extra $$.

What are some of the other policies in foreign countries?


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## Don (Sep 17, 2008)

Beaglemom3 said:


> When I mentioned the press, I meant the local paper, "home town newsy type", doing a human interest/consumer beware type of article. The restaurant will not want the AG's Consumer Protection office to get wind of this type of article on this action, or, non-action, in this case.
> Just a suggestion.
> 
> Hoc, no matter what tack you take, slam - dunk !



Along the same line, do any of your local TV stations have a help line that you could call?  And since they seem to be breaking a state law, I agree to contact the AG's office.  They might be very interested.


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## Cathy in Boston (Sep 17, 2008)

Make it one more person pulling for you on this one.  

I absolutely despise poor customer service.  I would rather pay more for something than to put up with any place that has poor customer service, whether it be a restaurant, department store, clothing store or whatever.

And I also make sure I let people know about places that do offer excellent customer service, i.e., I will tell anyone who is willing to listen how terrific the customer service is for LL Bean (probably the most customer-focused company of any I deal with).

Best of luck to you on this, and I hope those idiots learn a lesson!!


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## Hoc (Sep 17, 2008)

Don said:


> Along the same line, do any of your local TV stations have a help line that you could call?  And since they seem to be breaking a state law, I agree to contact the AG's office.  They might be very interested.



There are some "Ombusdman" types on some of the local news channels.  But, as I said, I'd rather not involve the press.  I will pursue it civilly, and then, when that's done, I might contact the AG.  But in the current economy, I'd rather get my damages first.  The AG could very well shut them down, and I really don't want that.

Believe me, just going through the experience in Civil Litigation should make them think twice about doing this kind of thing again.


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## Hoc (Sep 17, 2008)

Icarus said:


> She didn't stay there long, did she? Did she take them to court?
> 
> Isn't this place a chain restaurant?



She stayed there for a year or two, but left after the management started keeping virtually all of the tip money.  No, she didn't take them to court -- she's very shy and couldn't have handled that.

And, no, this place is not a chain restaurant, or my tactics would have been different (and they would not have done the stupid things they're doing).


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## Hoc (Sep 17, 2008)

Mimi39 said:


> _Her response: "I'm not signing nothing."_ How about her blatant use of poor English?



Yes, that alone should have subjected her to Guantanamo-Bay-type torture.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 17, 2008)

Hoc said:


> Yes, that alone should have subjected her to Guantanamo-Bay-type torture.



Yeah, Hoc. I can just imagine you Sprite-boarding her! "Apologize right now or I'll give you a dose of tonic water instead!"


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## Hoc (Sep 17, 2008)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Yeah, Hoc. I can just imagine you Sprite-boarding her! "Apologize right now or I'll give you a dose of tonic water instead!"



Personally, I would find Diet Coke with lime more offensive.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 17, 2008)

Hoc said:


> Personally, I would find Diet Coke with lime more offensive.



*You sadist!!!*


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## regatta333 (Sep 17, 2008)

*Visa Gift Cards*

Speaking of gift cards, my husband got a Visa gift card at work back in March.  We received no accompanying instructions other than those on the card regarding how it was to be activated.  I used it once and then tried to use it last week at a restaurant.  The card was rejected.

When I got home I called the number on the card.  Turns out, they not only charge you $0.35 per transaction if you don't use it in one transaction, but after 6 months (most cards allow you a year), they start reducing the value of the card by $2.50 per month!  In this case, it hadn't even been 6 full months, as it was purchased sometime mid-March and they deducted $2.50 on Sept 1.  The card was rejected because the amount of the restaurant bill was greater than the remaining balance on the card.  It turns out, in order to successfully use the card in this instance, you have to know exactly how much is left on the card and then pay down the bill until that exact amount is owed.  Then the card will be accepted.

I guess I should count myself lucky that I discovered this before October rolled around, but I will certainly never purchase a VISA gift card and my husband is planning on making sure all future gifts are done in cash.


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## Hoc (Sep 17, 2008)

regatta333 said:


> When I got home I called the number on the card.  Turns out, they not only charge you $0.35 per transaction if you don't use it in one transaction, but after 6 months (most cards allow you a year), they start reducing the value of the card by $2.50 per month!



In most states that prohibit an expiration date on the card (including California), the card is allowed to charge a "dormancy fee," like this one.  There is usually a cap on the amount of the fee they can charge, and I don't know whether Maryland law requires specification of the fee in order to charge it.  The only states I know that have prohibitions on expiration dates for gift cards are California, Illinois, Rhode Island and Delaware.  There may be others, but those are the ones I know about.


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## applegirl (Sep 17, 2008)

I hope you get every peeny Hoc!  Please keep us posted.  What bad management that restaurant must have!  Hope they are fired over this. That's just not how you run a business.

Janna


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## Hoc (Sep 17, 2008)

applegirl said:


> I hope you get every peeny Hoc!  Please keep us posted.  What bad management that restaurant must have!  Hope they are fired over this. That's just not how you run a business.



I don't think it's bad management -- I think the attitude is pervasive.  The most offensive things that were said came from the owner of the business.  Yes, the manager called the police over my asking them to honor their gift card.  But after the fact, when I made demand on the owner to do so, she threatened to have me criminally prosecuted, as well.  In other words, she threatened to pursue criminal charges in order to gain a benefit in a civil matter.  That's extortion under California law, and both the owner and manager did it.  I suspect the manager did it when she called the owner, and the owner told her to call the police.

The owner accused me of digging the card out of the trash, and the owner is the one who blatantly lied and said she never sold a gift card for more than $20.

In other words, because the owner is as bad or worse than the manager, the manager won't be fired over this.  They will consistently see me as "the bad guy."  So be it.


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## djs (Sep 17, 2008)

Hoc said:


> The owner accused me of digging the card out of the trash, and the owner is the one who blatantly lied and said she never sold a gift card for more than $20.



Say you had dug through the trash, who's trash would you have gone through?  If it wasn't the store's trash then it's none of the owner's business.  If it was the store's trash (which I'm only saying here to hurt the owner's argument) then someone should have taken measures to make sure the card was destroyed and not put somewhere where someone could gain access to them.

If it was someone else's trash than it's none of the owner's business.


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## Hoc (Sep 17, 2008)

djs said:


> Say you had dug through the trash, who's trash would you have gone through?



The owner said she threw out a bunch of cards six months ago, and my card could have been one of those.  Yeah, she was acting pretty ridiculous on the whole thing.


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## 3kids4me (Sep 17, 2008)

I can't wait to see how this turns out.  I suppose they will offer to settle with you?  If so, will you accept a settlement?


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## ladycody (Sep 17, 2008)

Hoc said:


> The owner said she threw out a bunch of cards six months ago, and my card could have been one of those.  Yeah, she was acting pretty ridiculous on the whole thing.


  Any restaurant owner that disposes of gift cards or gift certificates without properly destroying them needs a smack for stupidity on that count alone...


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## Jya-Ning (Sep 17, 2008)

Hoc said:


> I don't know whether Maryland law requires specification of the fee in order to charge it.



Hoc got me look for what my state actual do, http://www.oag.state.md.us/Press/2006/120506.htm.

Jya-Ning


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## cerralee (Sep 17, 2008)

I had a similar situation with the local blockbuster video store.  When my kids were smaller they would often get gift cards as presents as the one size fits all is an easy one with the blockbuster stores. 
 Pennsylvania also has a law that says gift cards don't expire.  The cards my daughter used were slightly over a year old and the store refused to accept them.  The cards had numbers on the back that supposedly if you called and typed in the number it would give you the balance.  Since they were over a year old, the recording said the cards were no longer valid.

She had several $50 cards she had not used.  She came home very upset that she was not allowed to use the cards.  I printed her off a copy of the PA law that outlined the non-expiration of gift cards and we went back to the store.  At the time she was around 15 and quite capable of arguing her case.  She had management call the main office, and presented the copy of the state law. 

She was quite impressive, got them to issue new cards and then quickly spent the value of the cards.  It was a learning lesson for her.
She is now well into her Junior year of college and wants to be an advocate.   She is always taking up one cause or another and has become quite versed at fact finding and then argumentation.  I know I haven't won an argument with her in several years!!

She has helped several of her friends get the value of their gift cards also.  Many people still believe that the old forgotten gift card found in their sock drawer is worthless.  *Not here in PA if you know your stuff!!*

Good for you HOC, it's a shame that people let restuarants and stores sell you those cards and then refuse to honor them.  Give em !!!!


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## Hoc (Sep 17, 2008)

3kids4me said:


> I can't wait to see how this turns out.  I suppose they will offer to settle with you?  If so, will you accept a settlement?



I offered to settle with them before I even filed the lawsuit.  The response was to threaten "to pursue criminal charges" agaisnt me.  If there is a settlement offer during the litigation, it will have to be for more than I offered prior to the litigation, and I will first decide whether I think that the offer that they make, plus the fees they have spent up to the date of the offer, seems like they got the message.  Ultimately, I will continue to make settlement offers for less than the full amount up to the trial.  My guess is, if it's been eight months to a year, they will have spent a few thousand in legal fees and I might make a statutory settlement offer of $72 to them.  If they accept, I will also get back around another $400 in costs.  If they reject it (more likely), I will probably do better at trial and get a lot of other things in addition to the $400.

So, the answer is, yes.  I will always consider settlement offers.  Just remember that this litigation is going to be exponentially more expensive for them than for me.  I have already spent the bulk of the money I will have to spend.  The rest is my time, so my incentive to settle is much lower than theirs.


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## pjrose (Sep 17, 2008)

cerralee said:


> At the time she was around 15 and quite capable of arguing her case.  She had management call the main office, and presented the copy of the state law.
> 
> She was quite impressive, got them to issue new cards and then quickly spent the value of the cards.



Nice! I'd be the proud parent too!


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## dmharris (Sep 17, 2008)

Cerralee,

I live in PA and did not know that about gift card not expiring.  Thank you for that info.  Ironically my children went through the EXACT same thing at Blockbuster from a measly $5 gift card she earned from some volunteer work.  So she threw it out.  DARN, a day late and a dollar short AGAIN!


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## caribbeansun (Sep 18, 2008)

This would be the same card that said to treat it like cash - maybe you SHOULD dumpster dive this place as they may be tossing out greenbacks.



Hoc said:


> The owner said she threw out a bunch of cards six months ago, and my card could have been one of those.  Yeah, she was acting pretty ridiculous on the whole thing.


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## cerralee (Sep 18, 2008)

dmharris said:


> Cerralee,
> 
> I live in PA and did not know that about gift card not expiring.  Thank you for that info.  Ironically my children went through the EXACT same thing at Blockbuster from a measly $5 gift card she earned from some volunteer work.  So she threw it out.  DARN, a day late and a dollar short AGAIN!



I only knew about the law as the local paper had ran an article on the state law about two days before she went to blockbuster.  It was good timing and luck on her part.


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## M. Henley (Sep 18, 2008)

*Love It!!*

I love it.

I remember one when using a coupon and the restaurant owner made a small scene about it, I asked why he would pay to distribute coupons so that he could bring in new cusomers to insult.

Successful business owners know that word of mouth is the best advertising available, and the most succedssful.


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## Amy (Nov 16, 2008)

Hoc,  Any update on this?


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## Darlene (Nov 17, 2008)

Here in Salt Lake the local TV station has a guy who will help people in cases like this. He's called "Get Gephardt."  I don't know if you have a "investigative reporter" like that in your area, but it might be worth a couple of calls to the local TV stations.  He has helped people here with everything from cell phone company bills to exposing scam artist, anything where companies are taking advantage of a person and giving them the run around. I don't think this restaraunt would like the negative press.  If that doesn't work, just call the health department, anonymously of course, and ask them if restaraunts are allowed to keep mice as pets.  Darlene


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## grest (Nov 17, 2008)

I just read this...talk about terrible customer relations!  And it could have been settled so easily.  Go for it, Hoc!
Connie


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## Mosca (Nov 19, 2008)

Yes, I've wondered what happened as well.


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## mepiccolo (Nov 19, 2008)

I read through this whole post because I was curious about the name of the restaurant who did this.  I also hope he wins his case, mainly because the manager had no business insulting him like she did.


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## Hoc (Nov 21, 2008)

My internet has been down for a bit (some kind of problem in the Verizon network), and I just got back on.

Lawsuits take a bit of time to finish.  I sued them a day or so after I posted the initial post here.  They tried to avoid service (even sent a letter back as "addressee moved").  But I finally got them served on October 27.  Because of the way they tried to avoid service, I will be entitled to get my costs of service back from them (around $150 -- I'll make a motion in a couple of weeks).

They have 45 days to respond, so their response will be due in mid-December.  I have decided, however, to add a claim for recovery for civil extortion to the lawsuit.  So, I'll be amending the complaint to seek $10,000 for damages (though I figure I'll either default them or eventually settle it, after they have spent a ton of money in legal fees).  Once I serve the amended complaint on them, they will have another 35 days to respond.

We're probably looking at March before this is resolved.  But I have time.


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## Kay H (Nov 21, 2008)

You go, Hoc.  I hope you get every penny you are suing for.  This owner sounds like a complete jerk.  I'll bet he thinks twice before he refuses to honor a coupon in the future.  Serves him right.


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## dmharris (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay, you'll probably hate me for this, but my French teacher in high school taught us to "rise above it" when teased, harassed, etc. I try to practice that in my life. Now I do think the owner deserves a lesson, but to further sue for an additional $10,000 is a example of the problem our country has gotten itself into that eventually raises costs of everything for everyone. Why not leave the first suit as is? Why do you want him to spend "a ton of money in legal fees"? I don't understand that eye-for-an-eye mentality. This culture of hate and vengence is spinning out of control in our country, in my opinion.


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## Passepartout (Nov 22, 2008)

dmharris said:


> Okay, you'll probably hate me for this, but my French teacher in high school taught us to "rise above it" when teased, harassed, etc. I try to practice that in my life. Now I do think the owner deserves a lesson, but to further sue for an additional $10,000 is a example of the problem our country has gotten itself into that eventually raises costs of everything for everyone. Why not leave the first suit as is? Why do you want him to spend "a ton of money in legal fees"? I don't understand that eye-for-an-eye mentality. This culture of hate and vengennence is spinning out of control in our country, in my opinion.



Dianne, I don't think anybody hates anybody and you are certainly welcome to your opinion. I see this not as revenge, but as come-uppance for the greed and disrespect shown by the restaurant owner and manager. They, after all sold cards and presumably spent the money they received from them. Then they insulted the customer for trying to redeem the card.

There are plenty of examples of the law using punitive fines or penalties to change the behavior of individuals or businesses. It has nothing to do with the cost or value of the original deed. Shooting a deer out of season around here will cost a hunter $5,000 plus some jail time. There's not a deer in the world that's worth $5k, but penalties like this definitely change the behavior of hunters. 

I heard recently that many 10's of millions of dollars would be lost to consumers by businesses either going out of business and their cards becoming worthless or 'inactivity fees' eroding the value of the cards. 

Personally applaud Hoc's efforts on this.

Jim Ricks


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 22, 2008)

dmharris said:


> Okay, you'll probably hate me for this, but my French teacher in high school taught us to "rise above it" when teased, harassed, etc. I try to practice that in my life. Now I do think the owner deserves a lesson, but to further sue for an additional $10,000 is a example of the problem our country has gotten itself into that eventually raises costs of everything for everyone. Why not leave the first suit as is? Why do you want him to spend "a ton of money in legal fees"? I don't understand that eye-for-an-eye mentality. This culture of hate and vengence is spinning out of control in our country, in my opinion.



I agree.  But this isn't teasing or harassment. It's outright fraud.  Hoc reasonably offered a settlement that would have allowed them to keep most of their fraudulent gain, and they opted out.

It's nothing but bullying, and to beat bullies you need to bully back.  Maybe that;s a guy thing, but that language that bullies that are guys understand.  And that's the only thing that stops them

In this case the bully picked on the wrong guy when he picked on Hoc.  He didn't know it, but Hoc could clean his clock.  Hoc is like the good strong kid on the playground who straightens out the bully.

Sorry if your French teacher doesn't agree, but I think most boys who''ve been tormented and harassed on a playground have zero problem with Hoc's approach here.


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## DeniseM (Nov 22, 2008)

Here's another thought - How many other card buyers has this restaurant defrauded?  They may owe other card holders thousands of dollars!


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Nov 22, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> Here's another thought - How many other card buyers has this restaurant defrauded?  They may owe other card holders thousands of dollars!



That's right.  But Hoc is the one who has the wherewithal to stand up to them.


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## bigrick (Jan 18, 2009)

Steve, any news?

You need some good news where people are just waiting to give you the best experience.  Can you find that in small claims court?


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## Hoc (Jan 18, 2009)

bigrick said:


> Steve, any news?
> 
> You need some good news where people are just waiting to give you the best experience.  Can you find that in small claims court?



I would not use small claims court, because it puts me at a disadvantage.  It's making its way through the process, but the court process is always slow.


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## Dean (Jun 5, 2010)

Hoc said:


> I would not use small claims court, because it puts me at a disadvantage.  It's making its way through the process, but the court process is always slow.


OK, so what ever happened?  I know it's been a year and a half since the last post and I'd forgotten about the issue until I found it looking for something else.  What was the outcome?


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## Jestjoan (Jun 6, 2010)

Inquiring minds want to know.


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