# Maui, Ignorance Will Be Your Demise



## Storm'in (Nov 7, 2016)

In a letter to the Maui Mayor, Maui County Council, and letters to the editors of Maui News, Lahaina News, Maui Now, Maui Time, Maui Watch, Hawaii Tribune Herald, Hawaii Herald, Honolulu Star Advertiser, Honolulu Civil Beat, Hawaii Reporter, Pacific Business News, and Midweek:


As a time-share owner on Maui, I thought you might be interested in the ramifications of Maui's war on time-shares, how this impacts me and what effect it will have on your future.

I purchased my ownership on Ka'anapali Beach, north of Black Rock, in Jan. 2003. At this time, time-share properties were (property) taxed as a Resort/Hotel. For fiscal year 2004, this meant a tax of $8.30 per $1000 assessed value. For the homeowner resident, their tax was $3.55/$1000. Summarily, time-share visitors were being billed 133% more than the homeowner while being instrumental in providing for the Maui economy.

In November, 2004, the Maui Mayor and County Council chose to create a specific property tax classification just for time-share properties. Online news reports attributed this action to Maui's dislike for uncontrolled time-share development. This was their effort to discourage sales and therefore future projects. However, their nearsightedness failed to allow them to see that they weren't punishing the fat cat companies and corporations but rather the tourists, people not unlike your residents we share space with. Most of us are retired or middle-aged and work 40-60 hours a week, like your residents. I purchased under the good faith of Maui government in existence at the time, only to watch it disappear in less than 2 years.

To my recollection, the owner's association had described Maui's increased taxation as Maui's decision that time-share owners should be held more accountable to infrastructure repairs and replacements/upgrades. According to more online news reports, it was Maui's government belief that this segment of the visiting population placed an unusual burden on the infrastructure, specifically the roads and the water/sewer system.

Shortly after Maui's implementation of the time-share tax classification (Jan. 1, 2005) and associated increase in property taxes, Maui commissioned a $75,000 time-share study to Hospitality Advisors LLC, which, along with the University of Hawaii School of Travel Industry, determined that time-share use had no greater/worsening effect upon Maui than the resorts and hotels. This finding was clear in June, 2006, though without-
1) any significant mitigation in time-share property assessments;
2) any significant aggravation in resort and hotel assessments; or
3) the removal of the tax classification and the "relumping" of time-share taxation back into the category of resorts and hotels, as the study clearly purported.

In fiscal year 2006, time-shares paid a tax assessment of $14.00/$1000, resorts and hotels paid $8.20/$1000 while the homeowner paid $2.50/$1000!
(Incidentally, I've recently read that Council member Mike White is the general manager of the Ka'anapali Hotel. This might explain why the Council didn't put resorts and hotels in the same (higher) tax bracket as their equally destructive time-share properties.

Maui is the only county within the State of Hawai'i to have a separate time-share tax classification. This does NOT exist on the islands of Hawai'i or Kauai, or in the city of Honolulu, for example. There is no mention of its existence anywhere else.

As of fiscal year 2016, time-shares are taxed at $14.31/$1000, resorts and hotels are taxed at $8.71/$1000 and the island homeowner resident is taxed at a paultry $2.70/$1000. Summarily, time-share owners are taxed at greater than 400% more than the homeowner and 65% more than the resorts and hotels that do equal amounts of damage to Maui's infrastructure.


Maui Mayor and County Council, what message does this convey?

*The average time-share owner (myself) sees a government who makes decisions for change without clear evidence to suggest the need for it, i.e., it was not evidence-based. That decision was geared to highly favor their citizens (and perhaps a hotel-managing county council member as well), relieving them of all to most of the financial burden to maintain the society they live in full-time.

*I see a government who randomly chooses to disparage time-share owners with a higher taxation class than resorts and hotels despite Maui's paid study (evidence) suggesting both should be treated the same.

*I see a government who chooses to obtain(?)/retain the good will of their citizens through lower property tax rates, increasing the chances for Mayor and County Council member re-elections.

*I see a government who places their expenses in the hands of those who lack input and the ability to vote otherwise.

*I see a government who has lost the good will of the visitor, they just haven't seen it yet (but it's coming, like a storm, and you *should* be worried).

*I see a government who doesn't understand the disintegrating future they have willed their people.


Citizens:
You are likely aware of the ongoing time-share dispute with the Maui government and the lawsuit(s) that have followed. Just prior to a recent court proceeding, the Maui government decided that it hadn't properly assessed the time-share owners, represented in the lawsuit, for years 2006, 2007 and 2008. Online news reports state that the two affected complexes had been assessed as time-shares (rightfully) but not as condominiums (additionally). The original $2.1-$2.5 MILLION for each of these three years JUST from one complex, was effectively doubled to $5 MILLION and change, each of these three years.

As mentioned above, taxing the complexes as time-shares and condominiums would seem to suggest double taxation, similar to your glass bottle beverage purchases. The consumer is billed a deposit to penalize the purchaser if they don't recycle the bottle, but assessed an "environmental fee" at checkout as well. Either way, Maui government has guaranteed routes into everyone's wallet and pocketbook. Since it IS all about the revenues, one can not help but to believe that some form of corruption exists to influence this actions.

Citizens, I would r-e-a-l-l-y feel sorry for you, having to deal with your mayor and county council were it not for the exceptionally low property taxes you benefit from. While you might feel like patting your government on the back for their generosity, consider this-


What is Maui's chief industry for revenues?
Tourism.​
Where does Maui's chief means of revenues come from?
Tourists,most of whom are time-share owners.​

If your bucket of tourists springs a leak due to time-share owners boycotting your county, who will be maintaining your economy? Who will be paying your bills?

*Less time-share owners mean partially-filled flights, which leads to less flights that will fly full. Less flights = less airfare taxes. Who's going to pay for airport renovations, maintenance and operations?

*Less time-share owners mean less car rentals and less gasoline purchased, both ow which provide taxes for road repairs. Where is this money going to come from?

*If you or someone you know works at the airport, as a ticket agent, a gate agent or a baggage handler for example, expect permanent lay-offs because the volume of travelers won't be able to support the current labor costs.

*Same goes with a car rental agency.

*Expect the lower volume of travelers to jack up your airfares. It's all about supply and demand, where pricing always follows demand unless supply creates an overhead cost that can't be managed efficiently.

*Less time-share owners means partially filled time-share complexes having fewer guests. Do you really think these complexes will pay people to stand around? More jobs will be lost.

*Less time-share owners means less dollars going to private businesses as well. Shopping, restaurant and groceries, tourism activities...if you have a job here, some will have to say, "good-bye work, hello unemployment." If you are a small business owner, business is going to get a lot less busy. Some if not most of you won't be able to keep your doors open with residents and resort/hotel visitors (who are likely to abstain travel to Maui based on your government's tyrannical actions).

Do the math.
Are you better off with less traffic? Sure you are, but at what cost elsewhere?
You can deny-deny-deny this future outcome but your local government is hard at work to create it and maintain it. They are determined to put Maui in line behind Puerto Rico for bankruptcy. You, citizen, are either part of the solution or part of the problem. You can't hide in the middle and say it doesn't involve you.
Sure, Maui government can always increase the tax rate on the resorts and hotels...until it drives them away in the same way as the time-share owners. Who's left now to tax?


Oh, and as for the average owner, don't worry about them, or me. I don't have to come to Maui to use my ownership. Maui government may be able to shake me down annually but they'll never see another thin dime in discretionary spending. Nothing personal - I just don't go where I don't feel welcomed.
In fact, I'm not even trapped (like you are) to have to put up with your inept government by paying even one more outrageous property tax if I so choose. I'm guessing a lot more time-share owners will feel the same way and exercise their options by the time I'm done. Look for me in local, Oahu and west coast newspapers; airline inflight magazines; online travel sites, time-share sites, and generic complaint sites; my blog; Maui time-share owner's associations; Political Action Committees...you get the idea. With all the property taxes I'll be saving I can even afford to splurge on paid advertising to get my very simple point across to others. The facts speak for themselves.


You see, we all get to choose.
What will you choose?
Hope like hell I'm wrong (because once the "tide turns" and tourism begins its downward spiral, it will be too late to change. You will have already lost) or save some semblance of life by paying your way and demanding that your representatives find other alternatives?

Time-shares, like it or not, are your lifeline. Cut it and you will most definitely bleed yourselves dry. The numbers don't lie.


***ALL Time-share owners***
If you can use your ownership elsewhere, I highly encourage you to do so. Maui needs to miss your contribution to their economy for *several* years.

If you can't use your ownership elsewhere, the least you can do is to band together simultaneously and boycott the island for 2-4 weeks a year, every year at different times of the year. This is all about you now, not the company/corporation/developer who has done too little too late. Find a way to send your message to Maui in the only way they will hear you - a loss of $$$.

Lastly, you have to look at this real estate property as an investment and detach yourself from it. Objectively, you don't hold onto investments that keep tanking year after year after year.


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## Luanne (Nov 7, 2016)

> Where does Maui's chief means of revenues come from?
> Tourists,most of whom are time-share owners.



Was this from the article, or your own comment?  I would disagree with the statement about most tourists being time share owners.


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## clifffaith (Nov 7, 2016)

Luanne said:


> Was this from the article, or your own comment?  I would disagree with the statement about most tourists being time share owners.



That jumped out at me too. Doesn't sound right.


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## DeniseM (Nov 7, 2016)

> Was this from the article, or your own comment?


The whole post is his letter:



> *In a letter to* the Maui Mayor, Maui County Council, and letters to the editors of Maui News, Lahaina News, Maui Now, Maui Time, Maui Watch, Hawaii Tribune Herald, Hawaii Herald, Honolulu Star Advertiser, Honolulu Civil Beat, Hawaii Reporter, Pacific Business News, and Midweek:


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## Luanne (Nov 7, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> The whole post is his letter:



I just wasn't clear if the original poster was the one who wrote the letter, or if he just posted a letter he found.


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## SmithOp (Nov 7, 2016)

I just don't see a boycott working, if owners trade out then exchanges or rentals will pick up the vacancy, the demand is just that high.
It was a well written letter.

Sent from my BLU R1 HD using Tapatalk


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## VacationForever (Nov 7, 2016)

The fallacy of the argument for Maui timeshare owner to stay away from Maui is that you have paid for your timeshare.  Someone will be using it, whether the timeshare owner or someone who traded into it.  The warning will only work for keeping away new timeshare buyers, not someone holding the hot potato Maui timeshare.


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## Luanne (Nov 7, 2016)

sptung said:


> The fallacy of the argument for Maui timeshare owner to stay away from Maui is that you have paid for your timeshare.  Someone will be using it, whether the timeshare owner or someone who traded into it.  The warning will only work for keeping away new timeshare buyers, not someone holding the hot potato Maui timeshare.



Not necessarily.  As a Maui timeshare owner I could choose to let my timeshare sit empty.  Of course, that would be stupid, but I could do it.


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## jestme (Nov 7, 2016)

sptung said:


> The fallacy of the argument for Maui timeshare owner to stay away from Maui is that you have paid for your timeshare.  Someone will be using it, whether the timeshare owner or someone who traded into it.  The warning will only work for keeping away new timeshare buyers, not someone holding the hot potato Maui timeshare.



The other thing they fail to realize is that when the economy goes bad, timeshare owners continue to come, but vacationers may not. Hotel occupancy rates dropped considerably in 2008-2014, and are just recovering now. The only way to really fix it is if timeshare owners get recognized as property owners there, and can legally vote.


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## VacationForever (Nov 7, 2016)

Luanne said:


> Not necessarily.  As a Maui timeshare owner I could choose to let my timeshare sit empty.  Of course, that would be stupid, but I could do it.



Precisely, not many people would cut off their nose to spite their face...


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## Luanne (Nov 7, 2016)

sptung said:


> Precisely, not many people would cut off their nose to spite their face...



No, but they could be "stupid" and forget to bank, use, or rent out, their week.  It does happen.


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## easyrider (Nov 7, 2016)

I doubt that the tax really is that much on a ts week, considering all of the other expenses involved with vacationing in Maui. 

Also, my ts weeks cost far less than staying at a hotel for a week, even with the extra bit of tax, and my ts has more amenities than a hotel. 

The Maui tax will not be a deterrent for me. 

Bill


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## DeniseM (Nov 7, 2016)

> I doubt that the tax really is that much on a ts week



Two bedroom Ocean Front owners at the Westin Kaanapali paid $1,170 in taxes on one week of ownership in 2016:

$105 for TAT taxes
$429 in property taxes
$636 additional property tax (re-assesment)


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## Passepartout (Nov 7, 2016)

I don't have a dog in this fight, but for a person who* just registered with TUG today,* this person sure seems to be a single issue poster. This conflict between the TS owners/developers and the taxing agencies on Maui have been struggling over this issue for some time. 

I hope there is some fairness for TS owners, and banding together will help, but this person's letter, well written as it is, is late to the party.

Jim


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## vacationtime1 (Nov 7, 2016)

sptung said:


> The fallacy of the argument for Maui timeshare owner to stay away from Maui is that you have paid for your timeshare.  Someone will be using it, whether the timeshare owner or someone who traded into it.  The warning will only work for keeping away new timeshare buyers, not someone holding the hot potato Maui timeshare.





Luanne said:


> Not necessarily.  As a Maui timeshare owner I could choose to let my timeshare sit empty.  Of course, that would be stupid, but I could do it.



Leaving my WKORV-OF unit empty as a tax protest would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

But not eating in restaurants, not buying excursions, not buying gifts and letting the Maui power-that-be know that in a concerted, organized fashion may make an impact.  I am willing to spend "X" dollars on my Hawaii vacations, and if too much of "X" is excess property taxes, there is obviously less available for the other stuff.


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## Luanne (Nov 7, 2016)

vacationtime1 said:


> Leaving my WKORV-OF unit empty as a tax protest would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.



Oh, I agree.  I was just saying that there are instances where a timeshare unit may sit vacant.


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## easyrider (Nov 7, 2016)

DeniseM said:


> Two bedroom Ocean Front owners at the Westin Kaanapali paid $1,170 in taxes on one week of ownership in 2016:
> 
> $105 for TAT taxes
> $429 in property taxes
> $636 additional property tax (re-assesment)



Are you saying the total tax bill before mf is $1,170 ? wow !!! How can Kaanapali Beach area be so expensive tax wise ? 

I can stay in a two bedroom unit in Maui in this same general area, Kahana Beach, I think even closer to the ocean , for under $800, with only $24 total accommodation tax through VI and just a bit more overall cost through WM. 

The lodging tax in Maui at the WM"s are less than many other WM resorts in the mainland States.  

I guess the point system beats the deed system regarding Maui.

Bill


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## BocaBoy (Nov 8, 2016)

jestme said:


> The only way to really fix it is if timeshare owners get recognized as property owners there, and can legally vote.



Timeshare owners are recognized as property owners in Maui, which is why they pay property taxes, but being a property owner does not convey any voting rights.


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## mjm1 (Nov 8, 2016)

vacationtime1 said:


> Leaving my WKORV-OF unit empty as a tax protest would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.
> 
> But not eating in restaurants, not buying excursions, not buying gifts and letting the Maui power-that-be know that in a concerted, organized fashion may make an impact.  I am willing to spend "X" dollars on my Hawaii vacations, and if too much of "X" is excess property taxes, there is obviously less available for the other stuff.



Robert, I agree with your comments. 

I seem to recall someone mentioning they would reduce their tips at restaurants and let the server know why. The servers are voters and can be encouraged to speak with the taxing authorities, letting them know they are being negatively impacted as a result of us being taxed at an unfair higher rate. Not a bad idea.

Mike


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## VacationForever (Nov 8, 2016)

OP, Storm'in, sent 2 private messages to me, borderline harassment, because of my responses.  When I tried to reply, the system indicated that this account has been set not to receive pm.  This person has in effect lost all my respect, or my estimate of the person's intelligence.  If you got something to say, say it out on the thread and stop harassing responders via PMs.


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## vacationtime1 (Nov 8, 2016)

mjm1 said:


> Robert, I agree with your comments.
> 
> I seem to recall someone mentioning they would reduce their tips at restaurants and let the server know why. The servers are voters and can be encouraged to speak with the taxing authorities, letting them know they are being negatively impacted as a result of us being taxed at an unfair higher rate. Not a bad idea.
> 
> Mike



The question is how to let locals know they cannot tax timeshare owners with impunity.  If we skip a dinner at Mama's and eat in instead, we save enough $$$$ to cover the excessive portion of the property tax.  But no one knows we did this.

If every timeshare on Maui organized an "eat-in Thursday" (or whatever) encouraging owners to BBQ or cook dinner in their units rather than going out to restaurants, and to do this island-wide on a specific day of the week, it wouldn't take long for the restaurants to notice.

This would have to be organized at the HOA level because it is futile to ask vacationers to do political organizing when on vacation, which is what this would be.  And because it would have to happen week after week for it to have any impact.


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## vacationtime1 (Nov 8, 2016)

sptung said:


> OP, Storm'in, sent 2 private messages to me, borderline harassment, because of my responses.  When I tried to reply, the system indicated that this account has been set not to receive pm.  This person has in effect lost all my respect, or my estimate of the person's intelligence.  If you got something to say, say it out on the thread and stop harassing responders via PMs.




+1; although only one message; I agree to the characterization as being borderline harrassment


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## Passepartout (Nov 8, 2016)

sptung said:


> OP, Storm'in, sent 2 private messages to me, borderline harassment, because of my responses.  When I tried to reply, the system indicated that this account has been set not to receive pm.  This person has in effect lost all my respect, or my estimate of the person's intelligence.  If you got something to say, say it out on the thread and stop harassing responders via PMs.



Me too. Seems a strong response from a late comer. True, the squeaky wheel gets greased, but to haul other victims to the woodshed doesn't seem productive to me.

Jim


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## clifffaith (Nov 8, 2016)

Passepartout said:


> Me too. Seems a strong response from a late comer. True, the squeaky wheel gets greased, but to haul other victims to the woodshed doesn't seem productive to me.
> 
> Jim



Me three. Didn't appreciate the PM.


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## DeniseM (Nov 8, 2016)

I also received 2 PM's from him and this is how I responded:



> This is the deal: We have already been discussing these issues for years, so I believe people see you as a late-comer who is preaching to the choir.
> 
> For example: In June, when Maui re-assessed the Westin's taxes, Tuggers were incensed, there was an extended discussion, and owners definitely contacted local government in protest.
> 
> ...



****I have asked him to stop PMing people and to post in the forums if he wishes to share his thoughts.*


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## SmithOp (Nov 8, 2016)

I got a PM too, apparently he is reading the thread but does not like a discussion that fails to align with his agenda.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Passepartout (Nov 8, 2016)

Hmmm. Maybe he'll launch a Twitter attack. Do we know of anybody doing that when they feel slighted?

Oops. Sorry. My bad.

Jim


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## Luanne (Nov 8, 2016)

sptung said:


> OP, Storm'in, sent 2 private messages to me, borderline harassment, because of my responses.  When I tried to reply, the system indicated that this account has been set not to receive pm.  This person has in effect lost all my respect, or my estimate of the person's intelligence.  If you got something to say, say it out on the thread and stop harassing responders via PMs.



I got two PMs as well. I didn't even bother to try responding.  If I had I would have said that this is a message board for discussion.  That is what we are doing.


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## VacationForever (Nov 8, 2016)

Luanne said:


> I got two PMs as well. I didn't even bother to try responding.  If I had I would have said that this is a message board for discussion.  That is what we are doing.



That is what I did, asked OP to post his messages to us on the board.  But my message had an error that he is not set up to receive PMs.  I looked up the settings and my conclusion is that he only checked off to accept PMs from Administrators and Moderators, not from other TUGgers.


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 8, 2016)

*That is a lot of Taxes!!*



DeniseM said:


> Two bedroom Ocean Front owners at the Westin Kaanapali paid $1,170 in taxes on one week of ownership in 2016:
> 
> $105 for TAT taxes
> $429 in property taxes
> $636 additional property tax (re-assesment)



I didn't realize that the taxes on a timeshare week on Maui is that high.  Except for my 3 BR in Orlando which has $219 in property taxes, my one and two bedroom timeshare property taxes are under $100.  I don't have any TAT taxes or additional property taxes.  With the operating expenses and reserve fee the total annual timeshare costs must be over $2000 for the 2 Bedroom!


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## Tamaradarann (Nov 8, 2016)

*Restaurants Spending and Local Elected Officials*



vacationtime1 said:


> Leaving my WKORV-OF unit empty as a tax protest would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.
> 
> But not eating in restaurants, not buying excursions, not buying gifts and letting the Maui power-that-be know that in a concerted, organized fashion may make an impact.  I am willing to spend "X" dollars on my Hawaii vacations, and if too much of "X" is excess property taxes, there is obviously less available for the other stuff.



I don't agree with having the taxes effect the tip you leave at restaurants since the waiters and waitresses work hard for a living, do not own the restaurant and may not even own property and pay property taxes.  However, if a boycott could be established on a night when restaurants normally gets a crowd from timeshare people and becomes dead with the reason communicated that might get some attention. 

Furthermore, I am not an owner in the Hawaiian Islands, however, a few years ago, at the urging of a timeshare property management representative that I was staying at, I communicated my negative thoughts to the local Senator and House member about the unfairness in not treating timeshare ownership as whole property ownership.


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## GaryDouglas (Nov 10, 2016)

*Cash Cow, aka Taxation without Representation*

The Residential Tax Rate is $5.30
The Apartment Tax Rate is $6.00
The Commercial Tax Rate is $6.60
The Industrial Tax Rate is $6.69
The Agricultural Tax Rate is $5.66
The Conservation Tax Rate is $5.80
The Hotel and Resort Tax Rate is $8.71
The Time Share Tax Rate is $14.31
The Homeowner Tax Rate is $2.70

The disparity between Hotel and Time Share rates is noticeable at maintenance fee payment time but not insurmountable.  For me it's the principle of the thing. Fair is fair, or in this case, unfair is unfair.  This is how timeshare owners are appreciated every year, particularly during times of economic downturn.  They come, rain or shine, use it of loose it.  And they are spending money on transportation, food, drink and entertainment.  They might curb their spending to some degree, but there is always money flowing.  Contrast that to the Hotel Rate option during an economic downturn.   As I remember in 2008, there were multiple years of lower double digit utilization.  So the Time Share user dis-proportionally bails out everyone else.

The only thing that I think might turn this around is to start up a website to educate Maui time share users on the unfair tax situation.  Also have an outreach to the businesses that time share users frequent and make them aware too.  Then approach the County of Maui and show how the time share owners and business community are aware how unfair this all is.  If they don't budge, then organize a boycott of food, drink and entertainment spending of one year.  Just go to Costco that year and make your lack of spending felt.  This would take a lot of work...


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## easyrider (Nov 10, 2016)

GaryDouglas said:


> The Residential Tax Rate is $5.30
> The Apartment Tax Rate is $6.00
> The Commercial Tax Rate is $6.60
> The Industrial Tax Rate is $6.69
> ...



You people with deeded ts weeks seem to be paying the most regarding Maui ts taxes. If Denise's tax quote is correct then these ts week owners are paying more in taxes than most of us in ts points owners for our entire week.

What is your entire ts cost just including mf and the tax ?

Bill


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## vacationtime1 (Nov 10, 2016)

easyrider said:


> You people with deeded ts weeks seem to be paying the most regarding Maui ts taxes. If Denise's tax quote is correct then these ts week owners are paying more in taxes than most of us in ts points owners for our entire week.
> 
> What is your entire ts cost just including mf and the tax ?
> 
> Bill



2bd units at WKORV are $2,265 (not including SVN fees).  The deluxe units are about $800 more.  WKORVN is about $400 more.  Marriott and Hyatt are towards the lower end of that range for deeded weeks.

MF's for the points based systems are higher than that -- at least for enough points for Maui.  Marriott's Maui Ocean Club will cost $2,300 - $4,500 for sufficient points to reserve a 2bd unit @ $0.50/point (# of points needed depends on view and week).


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 10, 2016)

Denise's post included a recent one-time (hopefully) tax assessment (~$625 for OFD) that was billed last Aug for tax-change in the mid-2000s.  The true tax rate is not that high, but it is still too high based on the unfair tax rate for TS.

As with any resort - if MF/Taxes increase too much and beyond affordability - Owners will default - and the impact will cause MFs to increase even more - with more Owners defaulting - vicious cycle...

Is this speculation? Partly - but this is what happened at WSJ-VGV that caused the HOA to be 1st to offer to take villas and resale them to prevent Owner defaulting and not paying MF.

The OP post was not well-written - too wordy and too much rambling - making it hard to read and comprehend. If a point cannot be made quickly, then time to rethink content.  IMO


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## DeniseM (Nov 10, 2016)

Hi Dave - I'm sorry if the number was incorrect - was your tax for your OFD unit $625?  (Instead of $636.)    I will go back and look at my sources.


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 10, 2016)

Your number is correct
~ means approx. $625 - which is close enough to $636.
I was just making a point as to the tax rate vs. the tax bill sent a few months ago.


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## rickandcindy23 (Nov 10, 2016)

We pay $260 property tax at Hono Koa.  Very high, IMHO.


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## easyrider (Nov 10, 2016)

vacationtime1 said:


> 2bd units at WKORV are $2,265 (not including SVN fees).  The deluxe units are about $800 more.  WKORVN is about $400 more.  Marriott and Hyatt are towards the lower end of that range for deeded weeks.
> 
> MF's for the points based systems are higher than that -- at least for enough points for Maui.  Marriott's Maui Ocean Club will cost $2,300 - $4,500 for sufficient points to reserve a 2bd unit @ $0.50/point (# of points needed depends on view and week).



The mf price of the two bedroom Weston suite week in Lahaina is a bargain at $2265 compared to a hotel unit at this resort for over $800 a night. It is a very nice resort from the looks of their website and likely worth the costs considering the location in Lahaina and being built on the beach. 

I doubt this higher tax is causing too many owners a problem in regards to being affordable or they would have bought something else. 

Then again, affordable is somewhat subjective. 

Bill


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## DavidnRobin (Nov 10, 2016)

Taxes are billed within MFs at WKORV, the recent $636 tax assessment for a 2Bd LO Dlx was for 3 tax years (2005-2007?).
Beyond the $636 tax assessment, the MF for the 2Bd Dlx WKORV has almost doubled ($1623 to $3122) since 2005 - with same %increase applies for other villa types.
At some point (whether MF and/or taxes) - Owners will bail. I am sure VSN runs a Risk-Failure analysis and knows where that price point lays.  I doubt Maui does, or cares... (thus, the rub)


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## gcoleman (Nov 13, 2016)

*How is value assessed?*

Hi,

  Not an owner on Maui, but I am an owner on O'ahu.

  Just wondering how the value to be assessed is determined.  If it is determined on the basis of the developer sale price, then the tax would be quite high indeed!  On the other hand, if it is based on the ebay resale price it would be lower.  If it were based on the potential sale at a bankruptcy auction, there would be a different tax again.

  Perhaps the value is based on the future income stream of the property?  (Like you might value a company you were considering buying...)

  I've seen, in another thread, the opinion that 50% of the developer's sale price is to support the marketing and sales effort.  Does the county have a right to participate in that fraction of the sale price? 

  Can anyone point me to where the property assessment might have been discussed?  

Does knowing the answer to this question inform this discussion?  Or am I missing something?

G


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## easyrider (Nov 14, 2016)

gcoleman said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not an owner on Maui, but I am an owner on O'ahu.
> 
> ...



Each county is responsible for establishing the assessed value of all of the property in its jurisdiction. County Assessors Office is responsible for property valuations. County Commissioners are responsible for setting County tax rates and classifications. Cities use their city counsels to establish city tax rates. The States Commisioners Office set State tax.

Hawaii has the lowest State property tax rate at 0.28%. 

I think what the deeded owners in Maui County are complaining about is the classification tax rate of the ts they own.

Bill


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## LisaRex (Nov 28, 2016)

Acc to the Maui website, "Property is classified based upon its highest and best use."    

http://www.co.maui.hi.us/755/Classification-for-Tax-Rate-Purposes

If you were to look over the Maui Property Tax records, you'd see that condos valuations seem to be based on their size and view.   

http://qpublic9.qpublic.net/hi_maui_alsearch.php


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