# This is Why We're Screwed



## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2020)

I'm starting this thread to highlight the ways that science is being tossed by the side, leading our country to being screwed in our Covid-19 fight.  Feel free to post more disturbing examples.

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Example #1:

*School hearing dismissed after angry parents pack room without masks*

Tensions flared at a public hearing in Utah over the state's mask mandate for schoolchildren after several parents defied orders by packing the room without face coverings.





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And for all of those who say the problem is teens and millennials -- how many do you see in the picture above?  

I think I'm giving up hope that this country can get a handle on this pandemic, as there seems to be an unlimited supply of those who won't listen to the science.  

Source:


			School hearing dismissed after angry parents pack room without masks
		


Kurt


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## RX8 (Jul 17, 2020)

That is just crazy. Kids learn their behavior from their parents so the defiance is a preview of what the school can expect from the students. 

Did you notice the unmasked mom and infant child in the midst of those packed people?


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## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2020)

Data to back up that we're screwed:






Kurt


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## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2020)

And the proof that we're screwed just keeps rolling in:

*Georgia governor bans cities from ordering people to wear face masks*

Georgia's Governor Brian Kemp is* explicitly banning Georgia's cities and counties from ordering people to wear masks* in public places. He voided orders on Wednesday that at least 15 local governments across the state had adopted even though Kemp had earlier said cities and counties had no power to order masks during the coronavirus pandemic.









						Georgia governor bans cities from ordering people to wear face masks
					

Savannah Mayor Van Johnson, who was the first local official to defy Kemp, tweeted: "Ignore the science and survive the best you can."




					www.cbsnews.com
				




Kurt


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## pedro47 (Jul 17, 2020)

I thought the three  (3) key factors to controlling the coronavirus were washing your hands more, social distancing and wearing a face mask.

I guess the medical trained experts are wrong.
The United States is in big trouble.  IMHO.


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## nerodog (Jul 17, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> I thought the three  (3) key factors to controlling the coronavirus were washing your hands more, social distancing and wearing a face mask.
> 
> I guess the medical trained experts are wrong.
> The United States is in big trouble.  IMHO.


An endless cycle  that wont break if  people  dont listen. I don't understand  the rationale  and each day  rather than showing  improvement,  the cases increase. What will it take ?


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## Talent312 (Jul 17, 2020)

If I were to address that crowd , I would'a said:
Please, raise your hands...
How many want to get sick, infect your families, go to the hospital, and die?
Oh, no one? .... Then put on a damn mask or get the hell out. Now!
.


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## DannyTS (Jul 17, 2020)

(deaths per day in Swedish).
Nobody has explained why their graph looks like this. No mandatory masks. The schools, bars and restaurants (and everything else) are open (never closed).









__





						Experience
					






					experience.arcgis.com


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## LMD (Jul 17, 2020)

This photo makes me cringe!!! The health of the school is only as good as the parents supporting it.


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## LMD (Jul 17, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> (deaths per day in Swedish).
> Nobody has explained why their graph looks like this. No mandatory masks. The schools, bars and restaurants (and everything else) are open (never closed).
> 
> 
> ...


 I would bet to say that people take individual responsibility serious there.


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## JanT (Jul 17, 2020)

I think they actually cancelled the meeting because no one would wear a mask.  Bunch of dumb-a$$ed people!!!



Talent312 said:


> If I were to address that crowd , I would'a said:
> Please, raise your hands...
> How many want to get sick, infect your families, go to the hospital, and die?
> Oh, no one? .... Then put on a damn mask or get out. Now!
> .


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## bbodb1 (Jul 17, 2020)

Putting aside the COVID concerns, would the fire marshal be producing a Holstein given the situation in the OP?


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## Monykalyn (Jul 17, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> I thought the three (3) key factors to controlling the coronavirus were washing your hands more, social distancing and wearing a face mask.


 Yes the overwhelming consensus is hand sanitation/not touching face/mouth/eyes, physical distance/limit contact&time in enclosed spaces, mask when can't keep physical distance (and try stay outdoors or with good ventilation/breeze).  It really isn't that hard?


DannyTS said:


> (deaths per day in Swedish).
> Nobody has explained why their graph looks like this. No mandatory masks. The schools, bars and restaurants (and everything else) are open (never closed).
> 
> 
> ...


Sweden didn't have much government mandate/lockdown but citizens did it on their own. For better or worse-they also don't have the absolute obsession that everyone must live to be 120 years old/never die like this country does either so some deaths of elderly were ok.(a different and contentious debate). Plus they did do what was recommended-smaller groups, outside, masks when can't do that etc.  Also got to remember USA essentially has the equivalent of several small countries, so comparing to Europe and one specific country isn't really equivalent. Plus let's be honest-US didn't have clear, honest messaging either-and you can see the results.  

And the governor of Georgia


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## Roger830 (Jul 17, 2020)

It's my understanding that to obtain herd immunity, more people have to catch the virus. Various studies suggest 15-60% of the population.


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## Passepartout (Jul 17, 2020)

The mindset of those who consider it their 'right' to spew their breath, their spittle, their germs around worries me greatly. I'm no germophobe, but c'mon! Have a little courtesy. We know how to protect ourselves, our loved ones, our community! Just DO IT! 

I REALLY Don't want to be separated from family and friends, a tube shoved down my windpipe, and die fighting to breathe, then have my remains zipped into a plastic body bag and tossed unceremoniously into a dark, ice cold reefer trailer with dozens more just alike.

Wear the damn mask, Wash your damned hands. Stay the Hell away from people! Especially ME!

Jim


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## geist1223 (Jul 17, 2020)

I assume the people that refuse to wear Masks have disabled the Seat Belts and Airbags in their cars; and, refuse to use ChildSeats for their young children.


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## isisdave (Jul 17, 2020)

Sweden did have guidelines about distancing, etc., but I haven't seen any objective measurement about whether their observance was measured, or how well they were carried out.

Sweden has about 10 million people.  About 3 million live in the three largest cities, and the rest of the country is pretty much rural. This is quite different from the parts of the US where the virus got started. [reference]

Sweden's death rate is about 4 times worse than Germany's, and 7 times worse than those of Norway, Finland, Denmark, and Estonia; her economy reportedly is suffering just as badly as theirs. [IHME website; NYTimes; Statista]

Personally, I've known some Swedes, though not a lot. Most of them were in my age group, and I didn't get the feeling that any of them were of a mind to drift off on an ice floe so that their kids didn't have to wear a mask.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jul 17, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> I assume the people that refuse to wear Masks have disabled the Seat Belts and Airbags in their cars; and, refuse to use ChildSeats for their young children.


That's ridiculous.  Seatbelts save lives and are proven to save lives, while masks are not proven to save us from germs.   I heard a renowned doctor say last night: "Wearing a mask is like trying to prevent mosquitos from coming into your yard by putting up a chain link fence."  It's a false sense of security.  

I think Sweden did it right.  We have gone overboard as a country with this virus.  Rick and I had it, it was very minor for us, maybe because I am healthier than I have been in 20 years, but it was so minor as to be less days sick than a head cold.  I know we had it because we both have immunity.  We were tested.  I remember being sick for approximately 3-4 days, and then it just disappeared.


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## presley (Jul 17, 2020)

It actually doesn't bother me when people want to cram into a private location without masks. I also don't mind if people want to crowd into a room to share dirty needles. 

It does bother me big time when people without a mask have to invade my personal space and spew their vapor on me. I've always hated that and now I have no respect at all for the people doing that during this time. So many narcissists.


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## Sugarcubesea (Jul 17, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> Data to back up that we're screwed:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pigsdad, can y ou tell me where you got the graph from... I want to show this to my company that our state is going up and we should work from home..thanks


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## bluehende (Jul 17, 2020)

COVID-19 and mask confusion: Separating myths from realities | COVID | UT Southwestern Medical Center
					

Wearing a mask to protect yourself and others against COVID-19 pandemic should be a no-brainer, but misinformation and mixed signals have created mask confusion. Dr. Sonja Bartolome, a specialist in lung disorders and pulmonary disease, separates the myths from the medical realities.




					utswmed.org
				




note links to studies


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## bbodb1 (Jul 17, 2020)

bluehende said:


> COVID-19 and mask confusion: Separating myths from realities | COVID | UT Southwestern Medical Center
> 
> 
> Wearing a mask to protect yourself and others against COVID-19 pandemic should be a no-brainer, but misinformation and mixed signals have created mask confusion. Dr. Sonja Bartolome, a specialist in lung disorders and pulmonary disease, separates the myths from the medical realities.
> ...



Before I click on this, @bluehende - _*please*_ tell me it was _*not*_ written by economists......


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## bluehende (Jul 17, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> Before I click on this, @bluehende - _*please*_ tell me it was _*not*_ written by economists......



Let me know in advance what professions you will not accept advice from please.  It is hard to keep up.


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## bbodb1 (Jul 17, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Let me know in advance what professions you will not accept advice from please.  It is hard to keep up.



Let's keep it simple - medical topic?  Medical doctor!


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## bluehende (Jul 17, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> Let's keep it simple - medical topic?  Medical doctor!


gotcha   no PHD's in any field then.

Of course you could explain your comment of 4 to 6 million dead votes in a city that cast 1 million votes.  I will accept economist or anyone that can identify those votes.  Your choice


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## geekette (Jul 17, 2020)

....while masks are not proven to save us from germs. 

ask yourself why masks are worn in the operating room by everyone but the patient?


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## geekette (Jul 17, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> Let's keep it simple - medical topic?  Medical doctor!


shortsighted.   "medical" is a very broad label.  

MDs are not the only knowledgeable professionals in pandemic times.  I will not rule out virologists, epidemiologists, researchers, etc., nor demand they have an MD.   Suit yourself, but I'll continue consulting multiple resources and weigh each individual offering on its own credibility vs some "this specific degree needed" baseline requirement.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Jul 17, 2020)

Because you can't give anesthesia through a mask?


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## bbodb1 (Jul 17, 2020)

geekette said:


> shortsighted.   MDs are not the only knowledgeable professionals.  I will not rule out virologists, epidemiologists, researchers, etc., nor demand they have an MD.


If it were that close, I would not object.  But I do NOT want an economist giving me medical advice......


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## bluehende (Jul 17, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> If it were that close, I would not object.  But I do NOT want an economist giving me medical advice......


And that study you are so bent out of shape over had zero medical advice.


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## DannyTS (Jul 17, 2020)

LMD said:


> I would bet to say that people take individual responsibility serious there.





LMD said:


> I would bet to say that people take individual responsibility serious there.


Your definitions of being responsible may not match theirs. 
Being  responsible in Sweden includes having a beer with your pals without a mask, hanging out with them at the beach, going to church, attending a school in person, going to work etc. The number of deaths per day in Sweden has been constantly dropping since April 14th 2020.


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## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2020)

geekette said:


> ....while masks are not proven to save us from germs.
> 
> ask yourself why masks are worn in the operating room by everyone but the patient?


Simple answer -- there _are _studies that prove masks help reduce the spread of this disease.  It is just science-deniers who have no proof that say otherwise.   

Kurt


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## clifffaith (Jul 17, 2020)

Cliff talked to his cousin in Dallas on Wednesday, and she was denied entry to a store earlier this week because she was WEARING a mask (and yes, I asked a half a dozen questions and got the usual non-response/blank look to "what store?, what'd she say?, what'd they say?, did she take her mask off to go in?, etc.).


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## pedro47 (Jul 17, 2020)

In WWII, in England the population was told to turn off theirs lights at night. So the Germans air planes would not have a strategic target to hit. Now in 2020 , we are ask to wear masks, social distancing and to wash our hand to save our self, family members and friends.


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## SandyPGravel (Jul 17, 2020)

clifffaith said:


> Cliff talked to his cousin in Dallas on Wednesday, and she was denied entry to a store earlier this week because she was WEARING a mask (and yes, I asked a half a dozen questions and got the usual non-response/blank look to "what store?, what'd she say?, what'd they say?, did she take her mask off to go in?, etc.).


We have a similar situation here.  A local coffee shop has declared itself a "mask -free zone"  Someone reported the business to the health department because our county has a mask mandate when inside a building other than a private residence.  The business called the police on the health department inspectors!!  The police sided with the health department inspectors, said they had a right to be there.  Nothing was resolved...


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## pedro47 (Jul 17, 2020)

SandyPGravel said:


> We have a similar situation here.  A local coffee shop has declared itself a "mask -free zone"  Someone reported the business to the health department because our county has a mask mandate when inside a building other than a private residence.  The business called the police on the health department inspectors!!  The police sided with the health department inspectors, said they had a right to be there.  Nothing was resolved...


This is why there is a spike in coronavirus. There are no mandatory requirements from the federal , state, or city governments to wear masks or social distancing. IMHO.


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## bluehende (Jul 17, 2020)

A Detailed Map of Who Is Wearing Masks in the U.S. (Published 2020)
					

The patterns from hundreds of thousands of survey respondents reflect partisanship, peer pressure and the footprint of the coronavirus itself.



					www.nytimes.com


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## moonstone (Jul 17, 2020)

It is now law in the area where we live that masks must be worn inside all public buildings, be it a grocery store, a library or a bus station. When we went on our weekly trip into town grocery shopping yesterday I noticed nearly everybody was complying and many stores still have employees at the door limiting the number of people inside at a time. We saw a woman trying to enter a grocery store with her mask up on the top of her hear, like you'd wear your sunglasses inside. When the employee at the door asker her to please put her mask on the woman replied I am wearing it, your sign doesn't specify where! Geesh! 

Further north of us in 'cottage country' yesterday, a gentleman tried to enter the small town grocery store without a mask and the guy disinfecting the carts asked him to please take a (free) mask and wear it. The man refused and started yelling saying nobody could make him wear a mask and hitting the employee. The man then got back in his car in a huff and rammed the store, then put the car in reverse, turned around and hit several customers' cars while fleeing. The police were called, and through license plate identification, found where the man lived. When they went to talk to him he pulled 2 different types of guns on the police and then he was fatally shot. Sad situation, probably exacerbated by the virus regulations, the heat and the man's age (73).


~Diane


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## Luanne (Jul 17, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> This is why there is a spike in coronavirus. There are no mandatory requirements from the federal , state, or city governments to wear masks or social distancing. IMHO.


Not true. Some states and municipalities do have mandates in place for masks.  New Mexico has one, and also several cities, like Santa Fe, put them in place.  Other states have them as well.


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## geekette (Jul 17, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Not true. Some states and municipalities do have mandates in place for masks.  New Mexico has one, and also several cities, like Santa Fe, put them in place.  Other states have them as well.


Yes.  My county requested mask wearing, then required it.  Fines up to $1000 possible.


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## Luanne (Jul 17, 2020)

geekette said:


> Yes.  My county requested mask wearing, then required it.  Fines up to $1000 possible.


Our governor just extended the mask requirement to be required everywhere except when you're in your home.  That includes outdoors and while exercising.


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## bbodb1 (Jul 17, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Not true. Some states and municipalities do have mandates in place for masks.  New Mexico has one, and also several cities, like Santa Fe, put them in place.  Other states have them as well.



I'll add to this list that Arkansas recently issued a mask mandate - but - execution of the mandate was left to the discretion of local law enforcement.  Gov. Hutchinson basically said local law enforcement will add this to their list of responsibilities but it will fall into the proper priority for local law enforcement (i.e. deal with the most serious crimes / issues first - which is as it should be).  
What might be more helpful though is the Governor authorized Dept of Health resources in the field to also have the ability to cite establishments with failure to follow the state guidelines with respect to dining facilities. Essentially putting more eyes in the field..... The Governor has consistently tried to steer a course of persuasion (first and foremost).  All in all, things are not too bad here in Arkansas but the largest concern for now is the backlog of testing in the commercial labs.  The state DOH has been trying to add more testing capacity as well.  

Going back to @Luanne's point above, not all mandates are the same.  Who can enforce them, on what priority they may be enforced, and the penalties are likely to vary widely throughout the nation.


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## SmithOp (Jul 17, 2020)

No, we need these people to catch it, once we get to 30% infected herd immunity will kick in, god bless these mask deniers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## easyrider (Jul 17, 2020)

I abide regarding masks. Even so, I'm not sure or even care that wearing the mask is really helping. We will see.

Bill


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## Brett (Jul 17, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I abide regarding masks. Even so, I'm not sure or even care that wearing the mask is really helping. We will see.
> 
> Bill



I do too, there is a good chance masks work to some extent,  better than nothing


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## WinniWoman (Jul 17, 2020)

SmithOp said:


> No, we need these people to catch it, once we get to 30% infected herd immunity will kick in, god bless these mask deniers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro



I bet we already have.


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## WinniWoman (Jul 17, 2020)

I don’t know about anyone else  but I was brought up to cover my mouth when I cough or sneeze. And when I am in a grocery store, for example, I am not talking out loud  to myself or spitting.


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## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Not true. Some states and municipalities do have mandates in place for masks.  New Mexico has one, and also several cities, like Santa Fe, put them in place.  Other states have them as well.


Colorado just issued a state-wide order that started today.  My county has had an order in place since mid-May.

Kurt


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## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2020)

Another example of why we are screwed:  Covid Parties.



			Covid parties: spreading infection
		


Kurt


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## Passepartout (Jul 17, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I abide regarding masks. Even so, I'm not sure or even care that wearing the mask is really helping. *We will see*.


Bill, It's already proven. In places where masks are mandated, people are quarantined until they show they're uninfected, the rates of infection are close to zero. Look at Japan, S. Korea, New Zealand. Even Italy and Spain- former hot-spots- once they 'got it' and required masks, quarantine and separation, they got a handle on controlling the disease. Look. We can't go on forever. We know this. But we can keep from overloading hospitals and give science TIME to come up with a treatment/vaccine. THAT'S the key to saving lives! Giving the experts TIME!

What we will see, and prove, in this country is the result of NOT FOLLOWING SCIENCE! Exactly the WRONG thing to do to get on top of this disease. 

The USA are pariahs of the world. Welcome almost nowhere. This is what lack of leadership looks like.

Jim


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## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> I don’t know about anyone else  but I was brought up to cover my mouth when I cough or sneeze. And when I am in a grocery store, for example, I am not talking out loud  to myself or spitting.


It isn't just coughing, sneezing, spitting (??) or talking that expels the aerosol that can transmit the virus -- normal breathing does as well, but to a lessor extent.

Kurt


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## Glynda (Jul 17, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Not true. Some states and municipalities do have mandates in place for masks.  New Mexico has one, and also several cities, like Santa Fe, put them in place.  Other states have them as well.



Right. Charleston, SC, among them.


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## Monykalyn (Jul 17, 2020)

isisdave said:


> weden has about 10 million people.





isisdave said:


> Norway, Finland, Denmark


 And Sweden has twice the population of those countries. Why cherry pick countries? UK, Italy, Belguim and Spain all have worse death/population stats than Sweden. For that matter-why did states like South Dakota that never had a SIP, or mandate businesses close or have mask mandate not having issues? Of course there are lots of ways to physically distance there, but even in Rapid City mask wearing is rare. Never once did I ever feel "unsafe" either when we were there 2 weeks ago. It was actually nice and relaxing to not be bombarded with doom messages constantly.  BUt we were NOT at Mount Rushmore July 3rd either  And we did limit time indoors-mostly eating outside as weather was gorgeous!


Luanne said:


> That includes outdoors and while exercising.


 Now that makes zero sense. and that is part of the problem-not going by actual science and being consistent. Nearly everyone who's actually studied the disease has said risk of transmission outdoors is very low. And wearing well fitting mask with exercise can actually be harmful.


easyrider said:


> I abide regarding masks. Even so, I'm not sure or even care that wearing the mask is really helping. We will see.
> 
> Bill


Yeah same here. Some cloth masks obviously better than others, but when "any" face covering such as bandanna is allowed?  
We stopped in CVS today looking for a plain black cloth mask for middle kid-her prom is tonight and we have print cloth mask and the blue surgical masks. For a <$5 mask it is surprising good-adjustable ear loops, fits her face well, double layer with pocket for filter if desired. There is a limit of 2 so may have to go back and get a couple more.

What is really funny is once you get over the idea of wearing a mask all day (if needed) you forget it is there-took about an hour when we went to Universal to forget the thing was on. My hairstylist said the same thing-will go to take a sip of water between client and nearly spill on her mask she forgot she had on.


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## DannyTS (Jul 17, 2020)

Monykalyn said:


> And Sweden has twice the population of those countries. Why cherry pick countries? UK, Italy, Belguim and Spain all have worse death/population stats than Sweden. For that matter-why did states like South Dakota that never had a SIP, or mandate businesses close or have mask mandate not having issues? Of course there are lots of ways to physically distance there, but even in Rapid City mask wearing is rare. Never once did I ever feel "unsafe" either when we were there 2 weeks ago. It was actually nice and relaxing to not be bombarded with doom messages constantly.  BUt we were NOT at Mount Rushmore July 3rd either  And we did limit time indoors-mostly eating outside as weather was gorgeous!


The following states and countries have done worse than Sweden:

New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, District Of Columbia, Louisiana, Michigan, Illinois, Maryland, San Marino, Belgium, Andorra, UK, Spain, Italy.

Many others could probably on that list before Sweden but most countries test little to nothing.


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## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Our governor just extended the mask requirement to be required *everywhere except when you're in your home.  That includes outdoors and while exercising*.


So if your are out in your back yard mowing your lawn, you need to be wearing a mask?  How about driving a car?  I agree with @Monykalyn here, that is going too far, and it is certainly not following the science.  While the intention may be right, I think going overboard and requiring masks in situations where there is no scientific evidence that it will help will cause more harm than good.  It will just give those people who are dead set against any kind of mask requirements more ammo for their arguments, pointing to how ridiculous an order is that requires one to wear a mask whenever you step outside your home, even when you are nowhere close to any other person.

Kurt


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## normab (Jul 17, 2020)

I wear a mask despite the fact that there is no clear evidence that the multitude of homemade masks really make a Statistical difference.  I do it because it MIGHT make a difference.  But I cannot fault those who don’t believe it makes a difference because there is not sufficient statistical data that the variety of masks people wear statistically lower the transmission.

The graphs that are posted always make me laugh. That includes what I see witha basic google search.  Does anyone look at the y-axes?  The graphs are plotted along a y-axis that supports the point that the person is making.  For example, the Hawaii plot has only a very small increase but they plot it to show a similar slope to other states...So this supports the contention that we are all “Screwed”.....  Similar to folks who state the USA Covid numbers are the worst in the world, but if you look at the numbers per Capita, we are not near the top.

Has anyone seen the news regarding the beaches in the UK the last weekend of June? Google It if you haven’t.  Please don’t faint if you haven’t seen the pix yet.

Everyone should learn how to read data and interpret it. The world is full of people whose job it is to distort the facts by manipulating/arranging data to suit their cause. Do you really think your news station of choice is not providing you data that supports their political leaning? Seriously...

This is why the whole covid situation is so political. There is extensive manipulation of data by all factions. Anyone who says it’s not political is disingenuous or naive.

My mantra continues to be “no one really knows”. You can say YOU do, but there is too much dissent and disagreement by scientific experts.

I am glad I was born and grew up in a country that allowed for people to have differences of opinion. Freedom of thought...  I’m scared that we may not be the same country all too soon.


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## Luanne (Jul 17, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> So if your are out in your back yard mowing your lawn, you need to be wearing a mask?  How about driving a car?  I agree with @Monykalyn here, that is going too far, and it is certainly not following the science.  While the intention may be right, I think going overboard and requiring masks in situations where there is no scientific evidence that it will help will cause more harm than good.  It will just give those people who are dead set against any kind of mask requirements more ammo for their arguments, pointing to how ridiculous an order is that requires one to wear a mask whenever you step outside your home, even when you are nowhere close to any other person.
> 
> Kurt


I think the exception of when you are at home includes when you are outside mowing your lawn.


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## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I think the exception of when you are at home includes when you are outside mowing your lawn.


Ok, how about in your car?  Taking a walk on a country road?  Walking on a sidewalk with no one close to you?  These orders need to be reasonable and they need to follow the science, or they will cause more harm than good.  I really hope the order states something like you only need to mask up outside when you cannot distance yourself from others.

Kurt


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## PigsDad (Jul 17, 2020)

normab said:


> I wear a mask despite the fact that there is *no clear evidence that the multitude of homemade masks really make a Statistical difference*.


Can you please provide a reference to this statement that you are passing off as a fact?  Not opinion pieces, but references to studies, experts, etc.  Because I (and anyone else) can find many, many references that state otherwise.  Science is based on facts, not beliefs.

Kurt


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## Monykalyn (Jul 17, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> Ok, how about in your car?  Taking a walk on a country road?  Walking on a sidewalk with no one close to you?  These orders need to be reasonable and they need to follow the science, or they will cause more harm than good.  I really hope the order states something like you only need to mask up outside when you cannot distance yourself from others.
> 
> Kurt


my city just voted on a mask mandate-and it is reasonable-inside buildings unless eating or drinking and still try to maintain at least 3-6 feet distance, outside only if unable to maintain distance from others not in your family. No mask for exercising, and exceptions for wedding parties to take pictures. For anyone over the age of 12 unless you have a legitimate medical reason. However there is a "snitch" line and I vehemently disagree with that. Way too close to police state, and judging from comments after the article it is making the mask thing more contentious. 
Frankly if I was (non food) business owner I'd have a sign stating the requirements, and if you choose to NOT wear a mask there is a personal shopper service available for a fee and will run out to your car. Then charge $25 or whatever for the service.


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## Monykalyn (Jul 17, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> Can you please provide a reference to this statement that you are passing off as a fact?  Not opinion pieces, but references to studies, experts, etc.  Because I (and anyone else) can find many, many references that state otherwise.  Science is based on facts, not beliefs.
> 
> Kurt





			https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252
		

Not exactly what you asked for but found it interesting on the different types of cloth masks. 

Old but also interesting








						Is Routine Use of a Face Mask Necessary in the Operating Room?
					

Karolinska University Hospital Solna eva.sellden@karolinska.seWHEN introduced a century ago, the purpose of the surgical facemask was to provide protection for the patient from surgical wound infections. But is there evidence that face masks prevent wound infections? A recent review concluded...




					anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org
				




and








						Unmasking the surgeons: the evidence base behind the use of facemasks in surgery
					

The use of surgical facemasks is ubiquitous in surgical practice. Facemasks have long been thought to confer protection to the patient from wound infection and contamination from the operating surgeon and other members of the surgical staff. More recently, ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



" is important not to construe an absence of evidence for effectiveness with evidence for the absence of effectiveness. While there is a lack of evidence supporting the effectiveness of facemasks, there is similarly a lack of evidence supporting their ineffectiveness." 

The "but but but surgeons wear them" arguing for face masks is actually based on sketchy evidence. However proper PPE has been shown to be protective-but note the PPE includes eye protection, proper fitted N95, proper glove use-and this include how to put on and take off.


----------



## Luanne (Jul 17, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> Ok, how about in your car?  Taking a walk on a country road?  Walking on a sidewalk with no one close to you?  These orders need to be reasonable and they need to follow the science, or they will cause more harm than good.  I really hope the order states something like you only need to mask up outside when you cannot distance yourself from others.
> 
> Kurt


I believe that was how the order started out.  Then since our numbers started going up got tightened down.

I'm not the one who issued this order, just reporting it.  Our governor is getting both praise and flack for this.


----------



## Cornell (Jul 17, 2020)

Yeah, I'm a good mask wearing citizen , but wearing a mask while walking my dog -- that's a hard pass from me.  Defies common sense.


----------



## TravelTime (Jul 17, 2020)

Mexico is surging in Covid deaths. It is now the fourth highest in total number of deaths. And they are not doing a lot of testing and reporting. Reality is probably much worse.


----------



## DannyTS (Jul 17, 2020)

When we go out, most masks I see are not fitted. I am wondering how much air escapes through the sides of any mask and how much is actually filtered. The argument with the surgeons is interesting but do you stand for hours next to somebody that is cut open and go with your hands through his guts?

We have been wearing masks since the beginning. Probably a lot earlier than those that yell at people to wear a mask on TV and on social media. Like most I think they can't hurt even if I would like to know a lot more about the benefits. I have seen opinions and not actual scientific studies.

I try to understand someone's rage when it comes to what other people do. The reality is that what I do is a lot more consequential to my health than what others do. I am glad I gave up cable TV a long time ago, not good for health. Through stress, in average it probably shortens lives more than Covid.

The next 6 months are going to be very interesting. Masks or no masks, the virus is not going away. Some are saying that if everyone wore a masks for 8 weeks.... Weren't we told the same about the shut down? And where the heck are we today?


----------



## bbodb1 (Jul 17, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> It isn't just coughing, sneezing, spitting (??) or talking that expels the aerosol that can transmit the virus -- normal breathing does as well, but to a lessor extent.
> 
> Kurt


MLB certainly deserves a lion's share of the blame for that...


----------



## Glynda (Jul 17, 2020)

Some keep talking about percentages, numbers of deaths versus positive cases. There are those who tell how mild a case they had as if the *ONLY* choice is death or a complete recovery!  But what about those COVID patients who fall in-between and may *NEVER be the same again*?  Those cases that require weeks and months of hospitalization and re-hab? Those who have strokes during or shortly after COVID?  Patients who post-COVID suffer permanent heart, lung and other organ damage?  Have neurological issues for months, possibly forever, post- COVID?  We don’t know all the possible side effects yet!  Shouldn’t we err on the side of caution? 

I find it so hard to believe how many just can’t seem to be inconvenienced for anyone else!  God forbid anyone tell them they shouldn’t do whatever they want...after all, don’t you know that they have their lives to live to the fullest _*right NOW? *_ They aren’t getting any younger! They had/have plans and there is no Plan B! They, and/or, their poor kids are bored, even though most are glued to their phones and computers, streaming programs and face-timing their friends! They want, therefore they are entitled_ and will_! By all means don’t expect _them_ to wear a mask around others!  They’re not comfortable or attractive and might fog up their glasses for the seconds until they breath in again!  COVID won’t happen to them and if it does, it won’t kill them. The rest should just be “culled from the herd”!   Go figure.


----------



## Glynda (Jul 17, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Yeah, I'm a good mask wearing citizen , but wearing a mask while walking my dog -- that's a hard pass from me.  Defies common sense.



I agree, unless you can’t socially distance. With the number of people around here who don’t clean up after their dogs, I might prefer to wear a mask!


----------



## DannyTS (Jul 17, 2020)

deleted


----------



## DannyTS (Jul 18, 2020)

Glynda said:


> Some keep talking about percentages, numbers of deaths versus positive cases. There are those who tell how mild a case they had as if the *ONLY* choice is death or a complete recovery!  But what about those COVID patients who fall in-between and may *NEVER be the same again*?  Those cases that require weeks and months of hospitalization and re-hab? Those who have strokes during or shortly after COVID?  Patients who post-COVID suffer permanent heart, lung and other organ damage?  Have neurological issues for months, possibly forever, post- COVID? We don’t know all the possible side effects yet!  Shouldn’t we err on the side of caution?
> 
> I find it so hard to believe how many just can’t seem to be inconvenienced for anyone else!  God forbid anyone tell them they shouldn’t do whatever they want...after all, don’t you know that they have their lives to live to the fullest _*right NOW? *_ They aren’t getting any younger! They had/have plans and there is no Plan B! They, and/or, their poor kids are bored, even though most are glued to their phones and computers, streaming programs and face-timing their friends! They want, therefore they are entitled_ and will_! By all means don’t expect _them_ to wear a mask around others!  They’re not comfortable or attractive and might fog up their glasses for the seconds until they breath in again!  COVID won’t happen to them and if it does, it won’t kill them. The rest should just be “culled from the herd”!   Go figure.


The numbers are very important from a public policy prospective. People die for many reasons and many other illnesses are as bad if not worse than what you describe. About 350,000 people *die every day* on this planet. Some die because they are at the end of the road but other deaths can be delayed by a day, a month or years. People die from starvation, lack of sanitation and health care, wars and violence, overdoses,  car accidents and so on. Today there is only one statistic that maters, Covid. Why that obsession? Is it about saving lives? US is probably spending 5 trillion dollars on this pandemic and a lot of lives can be saved on this planet with 5 trillion dollars. Why don't people care about anything else? If it is about lives it should be about all deaths, not just Covid. If it is about your own risk, you can absolutely avoid it.


----------



## easyrider (Jul 18, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> So if your are out in your back yard mowing your lawn, you need to be wearing a mask?  How about driving a car?  I agree with @Monykalyn here, that is going too far, and it is certainly not following the science.  While the intention may be right, I think going overboard and requiring masks in situations where there is no scientific evidence that it will help will cause more harm than good.  It will just give those people who are dead set against any kind of mask requirements more ammo for their arguments, pointing to how ridiculous an order is that requires one to wear a mask whenever you step outside your home, even when you are nowhere close to any other person.
> 
> Kurt



I'm not certain there is anything scientific about wearing masks to prevent the spread of covid 19. Masks certainly didn't help stop the spread of the flu regarding the 1918 flu pandemic. I wonder why this is any different. 

Another problem with mandatory mask wearing is to what length should the law be used to enforce this directive. Recently a man didn't wear a mask at a pharmacy , had the police show up at his house where the matter escalated to that non-wearing mask man being shot dead.

Bill









						Everyone wore masks during the 1918 flu pandemic. They were useless.
					

People called them "flu fences" and "chin sails." Gala attendees fastened theirs with gaudy earrings. Smokers cut flaps in them, and movie houses gave them away with tickets. During the influenza pandemic of 1918, officials often advised Americans to wear...




					www.seattletimes.com


----------



## easyrider (Jul 18, 2020)

Passepartout said:


> Bill, It's already proven. In places where masks are mandated, people are quarantined until they show they're uninfected, the rates of infection are close to zero. Look at Japan, S. Korea, New Zealand. Even Italy and Spain- former hot-spots- once they 'got it' and required masks, quarantine and separation, they got a handle on controlling the disease. Look. We can't go on forever. We know this. But we can keep from overloading hospitals and give science TIME to come up with a treatment/vaccine. THAT'S the key to saving lives! Giving the experts TIME!
> 
> What we will see, and prove, in this country is the result of NOT FOLLOWING SCIENCE! Exactly the WRONG thing to do to get on top of this disease.
> 
> ...



I'm not reading anything other than masks may help. "May" isn't really very scientific. History shows that wearing masks dose not prevent the spread of this type of disease. Your last sentence shows why you like your mask, imo. My thought is if the leadership said to wear masks off the get go you would complain about wearing a mask, lol, which is fine by me. 

The reason why countries like Japan, South Korea and Singapore have seem to all but over with covid 19 is treatment. It isn't the mask. It is how, when and what is used to treat covid 19 in a expeditious manner. These countries are using treatments that I guess are anecdotal and not scientific. You actually think it is masks ? Look at the chart below.

Bill

Chart


			https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdDtvvwWkAALts0?format=jpg&name=large
		











						Do face masks really reduce coronavirus spread?
					

Face masks are an effective method for containing the spread of the virus, used along with staying six feet apart from other people.




					www.livescience.com
				




_*The bottom line, experts say, is that masks might help keep people with COVID-19 from unknowingly passing along the virus. But the evidence for the efficacy of surgical or homemade masks is limited, and masks aren't the most important protection against the coronavirus. *_


----------



## nerodog (Jul 18, 2020)

Passepartout said:


> Bill, It's already proven. In places where masks are mandated, people are quarantined until they show they're uninfected, the rates of infection are close to zero. Look at Japan, S. Korea, New Zealand. Even Italy and Spain- former hot-spots- once they 'got it' and required masks, quarantine and separation, they got a handle on controlling the disease. Look. We can't go on forever. We know this. But we can keep from overloading hospitals and give science TIME to come up with a treatment/vaccine. THAT'S the key to saving lives! Giving the experts TIME!
> 
> What we will see, and prove, in this country is the result of NOT FOLLOWING SCIENCE! Exactly the WRONG thing to do to get on top of this disease.
> 
> ...


And people need to take responsibility  for their own behavior!!! Dont wait to be told and resist any mandatory  mask  rules... look at other countries  and their curve has gone down. I see Walnart, CVS Finally mandating masks...what took so long?


----------



## WinniWoman (Jul 18, 2020)

So far in NH this whole time since the virus thing started (and with tons of people coming here from Massachusetts and other states to their second homes and hotels and for day trips), some people wear masks and some people don't- inside of buildings and outdoors. Yet our numbers are ok. So fancy that.

We just had a contractor here yesterday with a mask on. We did not wear masks ourselves. We don't wear them outside or inside our home. Just in buildings. That said if he would have requested we do, we would have out of courtesy. We have contractors coming next week as well and it will be the same.

Geez....the mask neurosis baffles me. Wear them- sure. Use common sense, but I am sorry I do not believe they are the cure all that ends all for the virus. They are for jerks who do not cover their mouths when they sneeze or cough or spit/spray when talking - or ok- breathe heavily as pigsdog mentioned-in close proximity to others. That is all they are good for. Me- I am not one of those jerks.

As for the masks we wear they are cloth or those surgical type ones- we wear the same ones over and over again- throw them in our car. They don't fit tightly and we really don't care about it. That's what we have and we try to only go to places that require them for short periods of time.

 I do not believe in mask mandates by the government. Private businesses- sure. They can require what they want as long as it is not discriminatory towards any class of people. I also have been against any lock downs since those first two weeks of trying to flatten the curve . And I am for opening schools up as well without requiring children to wear masks..


----------



## WVBaker (Jul 18, 2020)

Passepartout said:


> Bill, It's already proven. In places where masks are mandated, people are quarantined until they show they're uninfected, the rates of infection are close to zero. Look at Japan, S. Korea, New Zealand. Even Italy and Spain- former hot-spots- once they 'got it' and required masks, quarantine and separation, they got a handle on controlling the disease. Look. We can't go on forever. We know this. But we can keep from overloading hospitals and give science TIME to come up with a treatment/vaccine. THAT'S the key to saving lives! Giving the experts TIME!
> 
> What we will see, and prove, in this country is the result of NOT FOLLOWING SCIENCE! Exactly the WRONG thing to do to get on top of this disease.
> 
> ...



Leadership is only as good as the information it receives from the "experts" so, what say you back off on the political innuendos Jim. You're opening a door that will get this thread shut down also.


----------



## Brett (Jul 18, 2020)

Passepartout said:


> Bill, It's already proven. In places where masks are mandated, people are quarantined until they show they're uninfected, the rates of infection are close to zero. Look at Japan, S. Korea, New Zealand. Even Italy and Spain- former hot-spots- once they 'got it' and required masks, quarantine and separation, they got a handle on controlling the disease. Look. We can't go on forever. We know this. But we can keep from overloading hospitals and give science TIME to come up with a treatment/vaccine. THAT'S the key to saving lives! Giving the experts TIME!
> 
> What we will see, and prove, in this country is the result of NOT FOLLOWING SCIENCE! Exactly the WRONG thing to do to get on top of this disease.
> 
> ...



follow the science .....


----------



## WVBaker (Jul 18, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Yeah, I'm a good mask wearing citizen , but wearing a mask while walking my dog -- that's a hard pass from me.  Defies common sense.



But what about the dog?


----------



## Cornell (Jul 18, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> But what about the dog?


LOL. I have a pug.  He can barely breathe as it is.


----------



## presley (Jul 18, 2020)

I don't understand the passion people have for or against wearing a mask. I keep saying that I am going to start going around without a shirt because it's my right to not have to be told that I have to wear a shirt. It will offend a lot of people, but so does going around without a mask. In my case, if I don't wear a shirt, I am not putting anyone's life in danger. So, technically, me going without a shirt isn't as narcissistic as someone else going out without a mask. No difference between the two as far as personal rights are concerned.


----------



## Cornell (Jul 18, 2020)

Here's my little societal observation about masks....

Someone here posted a NY Times article that shared the results of a large scale survey on mask usage.  This was one of the findings "Several national surveys in recent weeks have found that around 80 percent of Americans say they wear masks frequently or always when they expect to be within six feet of other people".

WOW! Just take a step and think about that.  In 4 months our nation went from a society that thought it was weird/odd when we would see Asians at airports wearing masks (ok maybe YOU didn't but most Americans did ) to 80% frequent mask usage.  

I cannot think of a public policy that has had such swift behavioral change as this.  The anti-smoking movement seemed swift, but this is amazing.  

So for those of you who get discouraged and angry at mask usage, I would think you would find this good news.


----------



## DannyTS (Jul 18, 2020)

presley said:


> I don't understand the passion people have for or against wearing a mask. I keep saying that I am going to start going around without a shirt because it's my right to not have to be told that I have to wear a shirt. It will offend a lot of people, but so does going around without a mask. In my case, if I don't wear a shirt, I am not putting anyone's life in danger. So, technically, me going without a shirt isn't as narcissistic as someone else going out without a mask. No difference between the two as far as personal rights are concerned.


Every time I pass someone that does not wear a mask I keep an even higher distance. Instinctively I hold my breath until I pass any person, even if I am more than 6 feet away. I cannot help it. Am I the only one? The same on the highway, I am one of those overcautious drivers (to the point of annoying others in the car). That is what I can control, not how others drive.


----------



## bluehende (Jul 18, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I'm not reading anything other than masks may help. "May" isn't really very scientific. History shows that wearing masks dose not prevent the spread of this type of disease. Your last sentence shows why you like your mask, imo. My thought is if the leadership said to wear masks off the get go you would complain about wearing a mask, lol, which is fine by me.
> 
> The reason why countries like Japan, South Korea and Singapore have seem to all but over with covid 19 is treatment. It isn't the mask. It is how, when and what is used to treat covid 19 in a expeditious manner. These countries are using treatments that I guess are anecdotal and not scientific. You actually think it is masks ? Look at the chart below.
> 
> ...


first paragraph from your link

_*Editor's Note (June 2 at 11:30 a.m.):* A paper discussed below has been retracted by the journal the Annals of Internal Medicine. __The authors wrote__ that their statistical methods could not determine whether the findings were reliable, making the results of the small study "uninterpretable." The study had found that surgical and cotton masks do not effectively contain viral droplets containing SARS-CoV-2. __Subsequent research__ has suggested that face masks are an effective method for containing the spread of the virus, used along with staying six feet apart from other people.

Here is the link from your article     subsequent research.  I also posted a link that has this link.



			https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext
		

_


----------



## Brett (Jul 18, 2020)

Cornell said:


> Here's my little societal observation about masks....
> 
> Someone here posted a NY Times article that shared the results of a large scale survey on mask usage.  This was one of the findings "Several national surveys in recent weeks have found that around 80 percent of Americans say they wear masks frequently or always when they expect to be within six feet of other people".
> 
> ...



I wouldn't compare the coronavirus to smoking.
I'm hoping a vaccine is developed so that people won't have to wear masks


----------



## DannyTS (Jul 18, 2020)

bluehende said:


> first paragraph from your link
> 
> _*Editor's Note (June 2 at 11:30 a.m.):* A paper discussed below has been retracted by the journal the Annals of Internal Medicine. __The authors wrote__ that their statistical methods could not determine whether the findings were reliable, making the results of the small study "uninterpretable." The study had found that surgical and cotton masks do not effectively contain viral droplets containing SARS-CoV-2. __Subsequent research__ has suggested that face masks are an effective method for containing the spread of the virus, used along with staying six feet apart from other people.
> 
> ...


This is an aggregation of studies not a gold standard study itself and it mixes conclusions about N95 and cloth masks.

I personally do not understand why, on such an important matter, there is no serious gold standard study about this. Many of the studies are also in a hospital environment where doctors and nurses spend ours with infected people and many wear N95 masks.

Trillions of dollars are being spent on the pandemic and after 4 months we do not have a real study about how wearing a mask at the grocery store might help?


Edited to add a quote from the study you linked:
"Data analysis: our search did not identify any randomised trials of COVID-19, SARS, or MERS. " 

So do not waste your time looking for one.


----------



## bluehende (Jul 18, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> I personally do not understand why, on such an important matter, there is no serious gold standard study about this.


Experimenting on humans opens up ethical issues that preclude these.  The only way to do these would be to infect people and look at the results.  I am not sure how you do a double blind study with or without a mask.


----------



## DannyTS (Jul 18, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Experimenting on humans opens up ethical issues that preclude these.  The only way to do these would be to infect people and look at the results.  I am not sure how you do a double blind study with or without a mask.


That is would be true for any other study  including covid vaccines


----------



## bluehende (Jul 18, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> That is would be true for any other study  including covid vaccines


Here is a good article on this



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/15/volunteers-sign-up-put-their-lives-line-coronavirus-vaccine/


----------



## pedro47 (Jul 18, 2020)

How often should a person change their surgical masks. Once per day or twice every two to three days?


----------



## beejaybeeohio (Jul 18, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Every time I pass someone that does not wear a mask I keep an even higher distance. Instinctively I hold my breath until I pass any person, even if I am more than 6 feet away. I cannot help it. Am I the only one? The same on the highway, I am one of those overcautious drivers (to the point of annoying others in the car). That is what I can control, not how others drive.



Behind my mask I fake cough from beyond 6 ft when I encounter a maskless person in an establishment that requires masks. Our local restaurants require a mask to be worn indoors no matter if you are just waiting to be seated outside or headed to the restroom from patio dining. So when I saw a 20 something guy without one, I coughed; frankly I don't think he even noticed.

There is a county hotline for reporting mask-violators. I'm against this whether it be to report an individual or business.

Like you Danny my DH is an overcautious driver it terms of pretty closely following the speed limit. My worry is that the driver he may annoy may retaliate beyond flipping him off.


----------



## easyrider (Jul 18, 2020)

Imo, a home made cloth mask does nothing to prevent the droplets responsible for air born virus expelled from a person should they cough. To prove this a person could place corn starch on the cloth and blow through it. You will find the corn starch has made it through the mask. Corn starch is about 10 microns. Same goes for many other masks but home made masks are the very worse. They look cool though ! Some one made me a Crown Royal Bag mask that is very stylish I guess. Doing a corn starch test it looks like many manufactured masks do not filter out corn starch either but they do a better job than home made.

Covid 19 size is as small as .06 and .14 microns. N95 masks can block a .03 micron particle but because they are usually vented they don't help regarding releasing the particles. 

All this being said, until further notice from the Health Districts, just wear a mask, imo. It is no big deal. It is good to know that these are not as effective as many think so those that need to take precaution will think of a mask as a last line of defense. 

Bill


----------



## easyrider (Jul 18, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Leadership is only as good as the information it receives from the "experts" so, what say you back off on the political innuendos Jim. You're opening a door that will get this thread shut down also.



I have known Jim for years and feel we have a mutual respect that transcends many issues. We do not agree on every thing but who does ? Occasionally I find myself in disagreement with myself so I guess that means I changed my mind which I think is common for most.

Bill


----------



## davidvel (Jul 18, 2020)

beejaybeeohio said:


> Behind my mask I fake cough from beyond 6 ft when I encounter a maskless person in an establishment that requires masks. Our local restaurants require a mask to be worn indoors no matter if you are just waiting to be seated outside or headed to the restroom from patio dining. So when I saw a 20 something guy without one, I coughed; frankly I don't think he even noticed.
> 
> There is a county hotline for reporting mask-violators. I'm against this whether it be to report an individual or business.
> 
> Like you Danny my DH is an overcautious driver it terms of pretty closely following the speed limit. My worry is that the driver he may annoy may retaliate beyond flipping him off.


You can't be serious. You're  an advocate for masks but intentionally (fake) cough around  others? So if you are an unknowing carrier, you would be spreading COVID through intentional action. To scare them, teach them a lesson about not spreading COVID?

To steal a title from this thread, *This is Why We're Screwed*


----------



## Cornell (Jul 18, 2020)

@davidvel And talk about passive-aggressive


----------



## davidvel (Jul 18, 2020)

Cornell said:


> @davidvel And talk about passive-aggressive


Appalling.


----------



## WVBaker (Jul 18, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I have known Jim for years and feel we have a mutual respect that transcends many issues. We do not agree on every thing but who does ? Occasionally I find myself in disagreement with myself so I guess that means I changed my mind which I think is common for most.
> 
> Bill



Bill, I admire that however, I didn't make the rules. Where do we draw line as far as what is political and what's not? Just how do we define a country's leadership if it's not based on government? Use whatever term you wish but, we both know the meaning and intent.


----------



## CO skier (Jul 18, 2020)

easyrider said:


> N95 masks can block a .03 micron particle but because they are usually vented they don't help regarding releasing the particles.


Your number is off by a factor of 10.

"Originally developed for industrial applications, N95 respirators are specialized masks that filter out at least 95% of particles above .3 microns."









						How to Make N95 Masks
					

This article covers how N95 respirators are manufactured, tested, and used, as well as C.D.C. guidelines for stretching the supply of these masks in emergencies.




					www.thomasnet.com


----------



## Brett (Jul 18, 2020)

davidvel said:


> Appalling.



funny

what about faking a sneeze?   that goes' beyond 6 feet !


----------



## easyrider (Jul 18, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Bill, I admire that however, I didn't make the rules. Where do we draw line as far as what is political and what's not? Just how do we define a country's leadership if it's not based on government? Use whatever term you wish but, we both know the meaning and intent.



I was quoting Jim in case you didn't read his post. I think you know that Baker so knock it off. I am about as political as a potato in case you didn't know. If you are reading between the lines and coming up with ill intent on my part you are just barking up the wrong tree.

Bill


----------



## CO skier (Jul 18, 2020)

WVBaker said:


> Bill, I admire that however, I didn't make the rules. Where do we draw line as far as what is political and what's not? Just how do we define a country's leadership if it's not based on government? Use whatever term you wish but, we both know the meaning and intent.


Why not try this instead?

"If you feel a message is improper, you may report it to the BBS Staff by clicking on the "report" link at the bottom of the message."









						Terms and rules
					

You must agree to these terms and rules before using the site.




					tugbbs.com


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## WVBaker (Jul 18, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I was quoting Jim in case you didn't read his post. I think you know that Baker so knock it off. I am about as political as a potato in case you didn't know. If you are reading between the lines and coming up with ill intent on my part you are just barking up the wrong tree.
> 
> Bill



Not reading between the lines however, if I misunderstood, than I apologize.


----------



## WVBaker (Jul 18, 2020)

CO skier said:


> Why not try this instead?
> 
> "If you feel a message is improper, you may report it to the BBS Staff by clicking on the "report" link at the bottom of the message."
> 
> ...



Actually, I was hoping that if I pointed it out directly to the poster, changes could be considered. Reporting a post directly to the moderators is something I would like to avoid if possible. If it were me, I would like to think someone could come to me directly and ask.


----------



## Makai Guy (Jul 18, 2020)

Cripes!  Three new pages just in this thread since I was on last evening!  No way I can read all this ...


----------



## cman (Jul 18, 2020)

Just wear the mask people. Every public health agency on planet earth recommends them. Don't follow these keyboard scientists. Listen to your public health officials and follow their guidance.


----------



## pedro47 (Jul 18, 2020)

It is my civil responsibility to wear a mask to protect my spouse , my family , my friends and my associates.  IMHO.


----------



## beejaybeeohio (Jul 18, 2020)

Cornell said:


> @davidvel And talk about passive-aggressive



Better than full on aggressive as many pro/anti maskers are. 
And your psychology degree is from where?


----------



## Luanne (Jul 18, 2020)

beejaybeeohio said:


> Better than full on aggressive as many pro/anti maskers are.
> And your psychology degree is from where?


I've been accused of being passive/aggresive on message boards in the past.  I was never sure whether to take it as a compliment or an insult.  My belief however was it was always meant as an insult.  What was interesting it was usually someone younger than I am who disagreed with something I said.


----------



## clifffaith (Jul 18, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> How often should a person change their surgical masks. Once per day or twice every two to three days?



I'll go ahead and gross everyone out. We were wearing the surgical masks for a month, hand washing them, then wearing them another month (they hand launder beautifully). Then they opened up (before closing again) hair salons and it became evident that haircut day meant toss the old mask because it became full of tiny hairs. If we get a cold or allergies I'd wear/wash/ rotate masks daily. The only time I varied from this was when it was instantly evident that bearded Cliff had grabbed my mask and worn it into Home Depot one day because it "smelled like Eau D' Clifford".


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## bbodb1 (Jul 18, 2020)

clifffaith said:


> I'll go ahead and gross everyone out. We were wearing the surgical masks for a month, hand washing them, then wearing them another month (they hand launder beautifully). Then they opened up (before closing again) hair salons and it became evident that haircut day meant toss the old mask because it became full of tiny hairs. If we get a cold or allergies I'd wear/wash/ rotate masks daily. The only time I varied from this was when it was instantly evident that bearded Cliff had grabbed my mask and worn it into Home Depot one day because it "smelled like *Eau D' Clifford*".



Wasn't that a new fragrance introduced just the other day by _*Macy's*_?


----------



## pedro47 (Jul 18, 2020)

clifffaith said:


> I'll go ahead and gross everyone out. We were wearing the surgical masks for a month, hand washing them, then wearing them another month (they hand launder beautifully). Then they opened up (before closing again) hair salons and it became evident that haircut day meant toss the old mask because it became full of tiny hairs. If we get a cold or allergies I'd wear/wash/ rotate masks daily. The only time I varied from this was when it was instantly evident that bearded Cliff had grabbed my mask and worn it into Home Depot one day because it "smelled like Eau D' Clifford".


Everything was clear and to the point .  Then your statement was so funny. LOL
The Commander in Chief solved that problem early she order pink and yellow for her and blue and black for me to hide the germs and dirt.


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## bbodb1 (Jul 18, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> Everything was clear and to the point .  Then your statement was so funny. LOL
> The Commander in Chief solved that problem early she order pink and yellow for her and blue and black for me to hide the germs and dirt.



Oh, come on now @pedro47 - you'd look smashing in pink or yellow!


----------



## Talent312 (Jul 18, 2020)

DW spent $70 at Joann Fabrics to make our own designer masks.
That was 4 weeks ago. Fortunately, we still have a stack of pre-made.
.


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## pedro47 (Jul 18, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> Oh, come on now @pedro47 - you'd look smashing in pink or yellow!


Right.  LOl


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## CalGalTraveler (Jul 18, 2020)

Don't they understand that we cannot open up the economy safely unless they wear a mask? These are the people killing the economy and extending the pandemic. Stupidity.

Don't want to wear a mask? That's fine. You do not have to wear a mask if you stay home. That is your right. But you don't have a right to push your germs on others in public spaces. Very simple.


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## DannyTS (Jul 18, 2020)

I am not sure mandating people to order food in a pub will reduce the number transmissions. Doesn't that actually mean people will spend *more* time at the same table with their buddies?








						NY pub sells ‘Cuomo Chips’ to comply with governor’s regulations
					

All that and a bag of “Cuomo Chips.” A New York pub has figured out a cheap and easy way to comply with Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s order that bars sales of alcoholic beverages without food: si…




					nypost.com


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## CPNY (Jul 18, 2020)

geekette said:


> ....while masks are not proven to save us from germs.
> 
> ask yourself why masks are worn in the operating room by everyone but the patient?


Because you usually have a tub shoved down your throat


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## CPNY (Jul 18, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> I am not sure mandating people to order food in a pub will reduce the number transmissions. Doesn't that actually mean people will spend *more* time at the same table with their buddies?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s NY. Nothing around here makes sense


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## DannyTS (Jul 18, 2020)

Does anyone wear glasses? Do they get foggy when wearing a mask?


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## Krteczech (Jul 18, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Does anyone wear glasses? Do they get foggy when wearing a mask?
> 
> I have been wearing glasses since 7th Grade and got used getting them foggy under many conditions. Cooking, baking, at the grocery store in winter, while skiing, and yes, while wearing face mask.  Minor inconvenience.


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## moonstone (Jul 18, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Does anyone wear glasses? Do they get foggy when wearing a mask?



Yes, I wear glasses but the masks I sew don't cause them to fog as I sew a wire into the bridge of the nose section. I got some thin stainless steel wire at a local craft store but I have also used the wire section cut out of the disposable masks we've been given at stores.  I make the shaped/fitted, not pleated, style and have also made many for other members of the family to wear. Our DGS just asked me to make him another mask but with a wire in it, even though he doesn't wear glasses, he wants to be able to wear his sunglasses at times with a mask.

If you are still having trouble with fogging, a little shaving cream rubbed into the insides of the glasses until dry (& invisible) will usually eliminate the problem.


~Diane


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## DannyTS (Jul 19, 2020)

@Krteczech  But why do they fog up?


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## RX8 (Jul 19, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> @Krteczech  But why do they fog up?



When wearing a mask your warm breath escapes directly onto the lens, which is cooler than your breath, causing condensation. Same principal when someone wants to clean their glasses by blowing on them to intentionally fog them up.


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## pittle (Jul 19, 2020)

I was getting my final eye check following cataract surgery last week and because I was wearing a mask, the lens in the machine kept fogging up while they were trying to see if I needed a script for readers.  I could not tell the difference between 1 & 2 & 3 and back and forth.  It kept getting cloudier!  Bottom line, I only need readers to thread my sewing machine needle.  I can do it after several tries and a bright light,but with a pair of cheap readers in 1.0, it is quicker.  I just put a pair with the machine.  I have only used it twice to make masks since the surgery, so not a big deal.


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## DannyTS (Jul 19, 2020)

moonstone said:


> Yes, I wear glasses but the masks I sew don't cause them to fog as I sew a wire into the bridge of the nose section. I got some thin stainless steel wire at a local craft store but I have also used the wire section cut out of the disposable masks we've been given at stores.  I make the shaped/fitted, not pleated, style and have also made many for other members of the family to wear. Our DGS just asked me to make him another mask but with a wire in it, even though he doesn't wear glasses, he wants to be able to wear his sunglasses at times with a mask.
> 
> If you are still having trouble with fogging, a little shaving cream rubbed into the insides of the glasses until dry (& invisible) will usually eliminate the problem.
> 
> ...


do you have a link if you sell your masks? I may be interested in buying for myself and my son. Or you can PM me


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## LannyPC (Jul 19, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> Another example of why we are screwed:  Covid Parties.



Just to clarify because I'm not too sure on this, what is a COVID party?  Is it a party of people gathering in hopes of spreading the virus and, in turn, hoping to achieve herd immunity?  Or is the purpose of such parties something else?


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## rapmarks (Jul 19, 2020)

LannyPC said:


> Just to clarify because I'm not too sure on this, what is a COVID party?  Is it a party of people gathering in hopes of spreading the virus and, in turn, hoping to achieve herd immunity?  Or is the purpose of such parties something else?


I think it is to prove it’s a hoax and not dangerous


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## bbodb1 (Jul 19, 2020)

rapmarks said:


> I think it is to prove it’s a hoax and not dangerous


I have read these parties were / are the modern day version of measles parties.  Given in hopes of contracting the disease in order to build immunity to COVID-19.


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## bluehende (Jul 19, 2020)

LannyPC said:


> Just to clarify because I'm not too sure on this, what is a COVID party?  Is it a party of people gathering in hopes of spreading the virus and, in turn, hoping to achieve herd immunity?  Or is the purpose of such parties something else?


This one I thought was particularly stupid









						Alabama students throwing 'COVID parties' to see who gets infected: Officials
					

Rising infections prompt Gov. Kay Ivy to extend 'Safer at Home' orders.




					abcnews.go.com
				




from the article

She said the organizers of the parties are purposely inviting guests who have COVID-19.

"They put money in a pot and they try to get COVID. Whoever gets COVID first gets the pot.


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## TravelTime (Jul 19, 2020)

Luanne said:


> I've been accused of being passive/aggresive on message boards in the past.  I was never sure whether to take it as a compliment or an insult.  My belief however was it was always meant as an insult.  What was interesting it was usually someone younger than I am who disagreed with something I said.



Why would younger people be calling you passive aggressive?


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## geist1223 (Jul 19, 2020)

bbodb1 said:


> I have read these parties were / are the modern day version of measles parties.  Given in hopes of contracting the disease in order to build immunity to COVID-19.




I wonder if these will continue in that it appears the immunity only lasts a couple months.


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## moonstone (Jul 19, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> do you have a link if you sell your masks? I may be interested in buying for myself and my son. Or you can PM me



Ahh sorry, I am not making them to sell. I am just making them for our and our families use since it appears we will be needing to wear them for quite a while. 

~Diane


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## DannyTS (Jul 19, 2020)

If you look it up online, these parties have taken place everywhere in the world including Canada and the US. I will never understand why people will always concentrate on one state or another, what is the purpose of that. I hope I will not make a controversial statement if I say a college student in Alabama may not be that different from an 18 old in London, NY or Mumbay.

I guess my point is that if there wasn't an "us vs them" mentality in a lot that is related to this virus, the results would be much better.


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## DannyTS (Jul 19, 2020)

TravelTime said:


> Why would younger people be calling you passive aggressive?


Maybe the average age on the internet is lower? The internet also seems to bring down age barriers that you have in real life.

I was also surprised to see that older people do not show more restraint and are ready to call names like somebody who is a lot younger. Also  I was surprised to see that people of the same age would "like" those nasty  comments


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## rapmarks (Jul 19, 2020)

Would these masks get more participation?


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## bbodb1 (Jul 19, 2020)

rapmarks said:


> Would these masks get more participation?View attachment 23796



Don't think they would last long enough......are they sold by the dozen?


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## DannyTS (Jul 19, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Experimenting on humans opens up ethical issues that preclude these.  The only way to do these would be to infect people and look at the results.  I am not sure how you do a double blind study with or without a mask.


There are 2 dozens clinical trials and 40 early stage trials for Covid vaccines. All those volunteers take  the exact same risk of being infected in case the vaccine does not work.


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## cman (Jul 19, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> There are 2 dozens clinical trials and 40 early stage trials for Covid vaccines. All those volunteers take  the exact same risk of being infected in case the vaccine does not work.


I volunteered for the Phase 3 trials for the Moderna vaccine. They're looking for 30,000 participants. If anyone's interested, here's the link.






						Volunteer for a Local Clinical Study | COVID-19 Prevention Network
					

COVID-19 Prevention Network conducts studies of vaccines and monoclonal antibodies to prevent the spread of the Coronavirus.




					www.coronaviruspreventionnetwork.org


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## bluehende (Jul 19, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> There are 2 dozens clinical trials and 40 early stage trials for Covid vaccines. All those volunteers take  the exact same risk of being infected in case the vaccine does not work.


Please read the article.  The ethics in these situations are discussed at length.  Along with the ethics of challenge trials.  We were discussing why there were no double blind trials done on certain things.  Bio ethics are involved in why.  I thought this was an interesting article on the subject being discussed.  There are some who feel since there is no cure for covid-19 that these trails should not be done with a control. The extreme on the other side feel the value gained from challenge studies outweighs the cost.  In the examples you bring up these studies also give safety data.  In order to statistically show effectiveness without a control group you would have to test a huge number of people with a vaccine that has very limited safety data since phase 2 was skipped.


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## DannyTS (Jul 19, 2020)

bluehende said:


> Please read the article.  The ethics in these situations are discussed at length.  Along with the ethics of challenge trials.  We were discussing why there were no double blind trials done on certain things.  Bio ethics are involved in why.  I thought this was an interesting article on the subject being discussed.  There are some who feel since there is no cure for covid-19 that these trails should not be done with a control. The extreme on the other side feel the value gained from challenge studies outweighs the cost  In the examples you bring up these studies also give safety data.  In order to statistically show effectiveness without a control group you would have to test a huge number of people with a vaccine that has very limited safety data since phase 2 was skipped.


I think 20-30% of the population does not want to wear masks anyways. I do not think they tried hard enough, I do not think they have tried at all.


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## DannyTS (Jul 19, 2020)

cman said:


> I volunteered for the Phase 3 trials for the Moderna vaccine. They're looking for 30,000 participants. If anyone's interested, here's the link.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got exposure already through my wife who treated C19 patients. Whose turn?


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## geekette (Jul 19, 2020)

Not me.


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## nerodog (Jul 19, 2020)

bluehende said:


> This one I thought was particularly stupid
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Should be banned. It's a health issue !!!


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## Firepath (Jul 19, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> Data to back up that we're screwed:
> 
> Wowed. My state’s chart looks horrible!
> 
> ...


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## rapmarks (Jul 19, 2020)

With many stores currently requiring masks, and many people refusing to wear them, I can see theM standing Outside asking someone to buy them some, like kids used to do outside liquor stores.


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## cman (Jul 19, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> I got exposure already through my wife who treated C19 patients. Whose turn?


This is for Americans. You're Canadian. Thanks for the input, but we'll take care of the trials.


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## easyrider (Jul 19, 2020)

DannyTS said:


> Does anyone wear glasses? Do they get foggy when wearing a mask?



Mine do with home made masks. Not so mush with the surgical or n95 masks. 

Bill


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## easyrider (Jul 19, 2020)

LannyPC said:


> Just to clarify because I'm not too sure on this, what is a COVID party?  Is it a party of people gathering in hopes of spreading the virus and, in turn, hoping to achieve herd immunity?  Or is the purpose of such parties something else?



I think its just another reason to have a party. We had many parties in the past that made no sense and now that pot is legal, the parties might make even less sense. I doubt that young people are drinking, toking and making out to purposely spread covid. It is just what young people do.

Bill


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## Luanne (Jul 19, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I think its just another reason to have a party. We had many parties in the past that made no sense and now that pot is legal, the parties might make even less sense. I doubt that young people are drinking, toking and making out to purposely spread covid. It is just what young people do.
> 
> Bill


There have been reports that is exactly what they are doing.


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## bbodb1 (Jul 19, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I think its just another reason to have a party. We had many parties in the past that made no sense and now that pot is legal, the parties might make even less sense. I doubt that young people are drinking, toking and making out to purposely spread covid. It is just what young people do.
> 
> Bill



I _think_ I can recall drinking and making out when I was young....


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## WVBaker (Jul 20, 2020)

easyrider said:


> I think its just another reason to have a party. We had many parties in the past that made no sense and now that pot is legal, the parties might make even less sense. I doubt that young people are drinking, toking and making out to purposely spread covid. It is just what young people do.
> 
> Bill


Did we ever really need a reason to have a party?


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## travelpager (Jul 20, 2020)

PigsDad said:


> It isn't just coughing, sneezing, spitting (??) or talking that expels the aerosol that can transmit the virus -- normal breathing does as well, but to a lessor extent.
> 
> Kurt



Yup. Check out this shadowgraph of conversation (PLoS). Then show a friend.


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## travelpager (Jul 20, 2020)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Don't they understand that we cannot open up the economy safely unless they wear a mask? These are the people killing the economy and extending the pandemic. Stupidity.
> 
> Don't want to wear a mask? That's fine. You do not have to wear a mask if you stay home. That is your right. But you don't have a right to push your germs on others in public spaces. Very simple.



This (different) shadowgraph of regular human exhalations supports your point.


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## geist1223 (Jul 20, 2020)

Just saw a large group of teenagers running(working out) in a tight pack through the Park across the Street. Only one or two masks.


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## Luanne (Jul 20, 2020)

I worked out for the first time in a mask today.  It wasn't pleasant, but I did it. I'm 68.  If I can do it, why can't younger people?


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## pedro47 (Jul 20, 2020)

Why are all the major retailers, hardware stores and supermarket chains,  mandatory  requiring customers to wear a mask to shop; in their stores; effective 7/20/2020?


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## geekette (Jul 20, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> Why are all the major retailers, hardware stores and supermarket chains,  mandatory  requiring customers to wear a mask to shop; in their stores; effective 7/20/2020?


Because they want to protect their employees?  We've had a lot of stores require them for quite a while now.


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## Brett (Jul 20, 2020)

geekette said:


> Because they want to protect their employees?  We've had a lot of stores require them for quite a while now.



protect employees and customers


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## Luanne (Jul 20, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> Why are all the major retailers, hardware stores and supermarket chains,  mandatory  requiring customers to wear a mask to shop; in their stores; effective 7/20/2020?


Not all.   Someone I know just posted that Winn Dixie will not mandate masks.


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## pedro47 (Jul 20, 2020)

We do not have Winn Dixie in the 757 area.


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## Brett (Jul 20, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> We do not have Winn Dixie in the 757 area.




But we have a Piggly Wiggly


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## Luanne (Jul 20, 2020)

pedro47 said:


> We do not have Winn Dixie in the 757 area.


We don't have it either. When you were saying ALL stores, did you mean just in your area?


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## Brett (Jul 20, 2020)

Luanne said:


> We don't have it either. When you were saying ALL stores, did you mean just in your area?



there are no Winn Dixie grocery stores in the 757 area code -  (coastal Virginia)

“Dixie” means ............................   "South"
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article243803312.html


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## geekette (Jul 20, 2020)

Luanne said:


> Not all.   Someone I know just posted that Winn Dixie will not mandate masks.


Yes, not anywhere near "all".


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## bbodb1 (Jul 20, 2020)

Brett said:


> But we have a Piggly Wiggly


The mark of civilization!


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## Blues (Jul 20, 2020)

Winn Dixie parent company reverses course and will require masks at all stores


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## Brett (Jul 20, 2020)

Blues said:


> Winn Dixie parent company reverses course and will require masks at all stores



that was quick


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## kckaren21 (Jul 20, 2020)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I heard a renowned doctor say last night: "Wearing a mask is like trying to prevent mosquitoes from coming into your yard by putting up a chain link fence."



That analogy may be good on individual particles of Covid-19, but I found this info compelling (originally published on PolitiFact.com _on June 12, 2020)_ "... virus particles are much smaller than the weave of masks, but infected people do not shed individual virus particles into the environment — they shed them in respiratory droplets. Masks prevent most, but not all, of these respiratory droplets from being dispersed into the environment.

“In addition, although we don’t know how many virus particles it takes to cause an infection, it’s almost certainly more than one. So you have to be exposed to enough respiratory droplets containing enough virus to establish an infection to actually become infected. Reducing droplet dispersal by wearing a mask greatly reduces this exposure risk, though it does not eliminate it completely,” she said.

I hope that is helpful!

Karen

From https://www.statesman.com/news/2020...-about-effectiveness-of-masks-for-coronavirus


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## geoand (Jul 20, 2020)

I wear a mask whenever I go outside my home. Even when there is no mandate. I discovered that when I wear a mask I don’t touch my face. It serves a constant reminder to no face touching.

I have probably washed my hands more in the last 5 months than in last 5 years. I have gone from touching my face all the time to not touching when the mask is on.


----------



## PigsDad (Jul 20, 2020)

kckaren21 said:


> That analogy may be good on individual particles of Covid-19, but I found this info compelling (originally published on PolitiFact.com _on June 12, 2020)_ "... virus particles are much smaller than the weave of masks, but infected people do not shed individual virus particles into the environment — they shed them in respiratory droplets. Masks prevent most, but not all, of these respiratory droplets from being dispersed into the environment.



BINGO!  I don't understand why so many people cannot comprehend this -- it's the respiratory droplets, people!  It is amazing what people will do to not believe the science.  I think I saw it somewhere here (or it could have been some other board) where someone was proclaiming that masks did no good because they could blow some amount of corn starch through them.  What did that prove?  Is corn starch the same as respiratory droplets?  SMH...



> “In addition, although we don’t know how many virus particles it takes to cause an infection, it’s almost certainly more than one. So you have to be exposed to enough respiratory droplets containing enough virus to establish an infection to actually become infected. Reducing droplet dispersal by wearing a mask greatly reduces this exposure risk, though it does not eliminate it completely,” she said.


Yes, there are studies that have shown positive correlation between the amount of virus you are exposed to with the severity of infections.  Given those results, even if a mask is only 50% effective, that can greatly decrease the risk of one getting severely ill.  Just makes sense.

Kurt


----------



## WinniWoman (Jul 20, 2020)

Wuhan Coronavirus Death Rate Drops for Twelfth Straight Week
					

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported the 12th straight week of a declining coronavirus death rate in the U.S."Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths




					townhall.com


----------



## bluehende (Jul 20, 2020)

WinniWoman said:


> Wuhan Coronavirus Death Rate Drops for Twelfth Straight Week
> 
> 
> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported the 12th straight week of a declining coronavirus death rate in the U.S."Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths
> ...


In the last two weeks that this article ignored the daily death rate has risen from 517 to 802 on a 7 day moving average 









						United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




here are two quotes from your article

Gov. Cuomo (D-NY) has also discontinued his murderous policy

so we can keep telling the truth about China and the virus they unleashed on the world.

These two quotes make it unlikely to be unbiased.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/its-not-only-coronavirus-cases-that-are-rising-now-covid-deaths-are-too/2020/07/17/193006e8-c868-11ea-8ffe-372be8d82298_story.html


----------



## Brett (Jul 21, 2020)

bluehende said:


> In the last two weeks that this article ignored the daily death rate has risen from 517 to 802 on a 7 day moving average
> 
> 
> 
> ...




the poster only looks at "alt-right conservative news" !

Wall Street Journal

July 21   2020







July 21  2020





*https://www.wesh.com/article/florida-coronavirus-cases-july-20/33367599#*


----------



## WVBaker (Jul 21, 2020)

As some perhaps only look at "alt-left news".


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## nerodog (Jul 21, 2020)

geekette said:


> Because they want to protect their employees?  We've had a lot of stores require them for quite a while now.


I think it should have happened right after the  re openings.  That's what I've been experiencing  here and it's been effective  in keeping numbers down.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Jul 21, 2020)

The latest Medcram (#98) on testing, very interesting Ithink this is what is needed for travel testing. Have everybody test before getting on a plane to Hawaii, for example.


----------

