# How do you guys feel about Starwood's MF Increases?



## j4sharks (Jan 2, 2009)

I have been contacted by a well known lawfirm to discuss Starwood's MF increases.  I will take the call later today.

My own observation is that there is a big discrepancy between what the sales reps tell buyers (i.e. that MFs typically go up 1-3%) and what has actually been happening (e.g. up 10-11% annually for past 3 years in Maui).  When you consider how tightly Starwood controls the HOA governance, including the renewal of its own contract to manage the properties, and the fact that owners have no real recourse to object to the fee increases (lest you lose the $$ you paid to become an owner by walking away), it is a question on my mind.  Mind you, I love WKORV and WKV (where I own) and I think Westin does a good job running the properties; however, I am troubled by the seemingly absolute power Starwood has over my MFs.

How do other Starwood owners feel?


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## LisaRex (Jan 2, 2009)

I share your concern.  

A red flag went up when I read the Owner's Handbook (which, of course, you don't see until after you own) and realized that Starwood gets the exclusive right to rent out or sell for cash and/or StarPoints any unbooked inventory, and they aren't required to reimburse the HOA one dime for these stays.  Ultimately that means that we Owners are given the burden of maintaining the properties without being able to recoup the costs for the wear and tear borne by these rentals.  It's a deeply troubling one-sided arrangement. 

Equally or perhaps more troubling is the unfair and imbalanced stacking of the HOAs, which are supposed to represent management AND owners. The SVO HOAs are jokes. 

I don't know about you, but my sole contact from my HOA is notice that I owe them money.  I am not given any updates on how we fared last year, they don't address any questions or concerns, nor do they provide me any information other than a top-line budget report.  I have never been provided contact information for any HOA board member in case I want to communicate with them.  Notice of HOA meetings is given so late that it would be a hardship to attend. 

The most recent proxy ballot didn't even list people's names, let alone useful information such as bios or contact information.  I was only given the option of checking whether I wanted to vote for all, none or just the folks who showed up.  I could have voted for Bernie Madoff for all I know.  And that is absolutely ridiculous.  I have essentially given up POA to an entity whose membership is kept secret from me.    

Also ridiculous is that non-Starwood sanctioned people who do show an interest in running are not given any cooperation.  One Owners reported that he could not be listed on the ballot because he hadn't been screened, and approved, by the current HOA.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?  And even if somehow we were able to get our name on a ballot, we have no means of communicating with our constituency except via public means because Starwood won't release the Owners' names and addresses.  There's no published process that I know of for how to run if I wanted to and there is certainly not an invitation to run for office.   

Bottom line is that SVO currently does have absolute authority over their HOAs.  In addition to double digit increases in annual MFs, owners are being socked with special assessments that run in the thousands.  And we have no meaningful representation on the HOA, so our only recourse is to sell our timeshare or sue them.  How ridiculous and sad. 

The only good news is that the SAs are motivating people to take action.    I know some SVV owners are VERY upset about the recent special assessments, and perhaps that will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.  We really do need to do something to break up this plutocracy or they will continue to act in a way that is both unethical and arrogant. 

HOAs were formed to provide a balance against two competing interests.   SVO pretends to have HOAs but for all intents and purposes they are rubber stampers.  And they are so arrogant that they don't even try to hide it.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 2, 2009)

so much to say...

I think the bigger issue is lack of 'true' Owner representation and accountability of SVO HOAs - I believe this could be a very good basis for legal action.

SVO control of HOA boards and the lack/blocking of contact between owners is essentially collusion between SVO and supposedly an independent board - tackle this and things like accountability of MFs increases can be dealt with.  Until this is challenged - SVO Owners will be kept in the dark and controlled by SVO without representation.


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## LisaRex (Jan 2, 2009)

Leave it to David to say in 25 words what it took me 253,509 words to say. 

He's such a man.


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## steve1000 (Jan 2, 2009)

I echo the concerns noted above and, as an attorney, I believe there may very well be grounds for a cause of action against Starwood. I own timeshares with several of the major hotel sponsors - and Starwood's MFs annually and consistently increase by double digits and in a significantly greater percentage than any of my other timeshares. As noted above, I believe this is because Starwood controls the HOAs. For this reason, I would never consider purchasing another Starwood timeshare.


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## Scott & Laura (Jan 2, 2009)

*Mf Increases*

I too agree there is a problem with Starwoods accounting and forthrightness.

I contacted Starwood two(2) years ago about how they determined MF fees. They would only provide their annual 10K report, and refused to explain in any way whatsoever.

The issue that Starwood is in a service industry and refuses to operate in a transparent and straightforward manner leaves me puzzled.

We had freinds attend a meeting to purchase a timeshare and they were told that Starwood never raises the Mfees more than 3-4%. We showed them the annual increases and they went back and discussed it with the salesman. The salesman insisted that "we" were completely wrong and provided our freinds wrong information.

Starwood apperas to "me" to manipulate board represenation, who can attend meetings, and attaches priorly undisclosed terms and conditions to the contracts after purchase is made.

For a service industry management team to manipulate costs and expenses in a secretive manner is unconscionable. Starwood reports to the press that "The Owners" want the increases is ludicrous.

I think an attorney reviewing the conduct and a forensic accountant reviewing the assesment of maintenace fees would go a long way to alleviating a concern "I" have and maybe others share that Starwood may be manipulating things and unduly or "errantly" raising fees.

It may be done perfectly in order but Starwood does not seem to be open about how they come to MF fees. At WKORV look at all the Villas and the fees of ~$1800 per year for a 2 BDLO. Thats ~$ 94,000 per year per unit. Are the total expenses that high?  What are their true costs to maintain and replace items? We were told by Starwood employees that they do not sell all weeks completely and retain units to rent, are they adding the MFee's for those units to us?

Scott


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## ian (Jan 2, 2009)

HOA increases in double digits *every* year?  My property taxes don't even increase that much!  Not only is it appalling, it's a terrible business move that slights the company's supposedly best and most "brand loyal" customers.

At this rate, WPORV will be $4000+ per year within 5 years!

I would join a class action suit in a heartbeat.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 2, 2009)

Unfortunately - a well-represented and well-designed lawsuit would be very costly - and thus, the rub...


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## Westin5Star (Jan 2, 2009)

I would also join a class action but it would be very costly.  I would think a case could have most of the proceeds go the the attorney(s) and then we owners would benefit by lower increases in the future or possibly even a decrease in the near future.


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## Westin5Star (Jan 2, 2009)

*Starwood- 2009 MF Decrease!!!*

Starwood- Business or Bureaucracy
After reading the recent posts on the dramatic increases in MF and resort / SVO control of the boards of directors, I started wondering how Starwood is run.  In this economy, I know of many businesses that are dramatically cutting costs while other entities (so as not to make this political) are planning huge spending increases such as bailouts, infrastruture, and continuing to hire new employees.  I know many businesses that have implemented 10-30% paycuts for their entire staffs after laying off many others.  If Starwood is truely a business and because labor and property taxes are a major portion of the MFs, shouldn't we have expected to see a MF decrease this year???

OK- so we did not get a MF decrease which is just amazing to me but how in the world do they justify a double digit increase.  Maybe they are just a little slow in reacting to things.  I am sure that they have already institued 20% paycuts, reduced their non-sales staff by 20% and have filed with each resort's county to have the property taxes lowered based on the new and reduced property values.


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## steve1000 (Jan 3, 2009)

I assume a law firm would take this on a contingent fee basis - and if the case was successful - or more likely settled - although most of any recovery would go the lawyers, the result would be increased owner representation on the HOA (hopefully, an opportunity for owners to ultimately control the HOA) and increased control over MFs.


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## Westin5Star (Jan 3, 2009)

steve1000 said:


> I assume a law firm would take this on a contingent fee basis - and if the case was successful - or more likely settled - although most of any recovery would go the lawyers, the result would be increased owner representation on the HOA (hopefully, an opportunity for owners to ultimately control the HOA) and increased control over MFs.



Steve, is it legal for me to fund some attorney's (as salary) to take this case and then for me to collect the settlement?  I believe that this would be a great investment for me which I am looking for since stocks and real estate haven't been too good lately.


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## steve1000 (Jan 3, 2009)

Sorry that would not be allowed. Such a case would almost certainly be a class action case and the class would be entitled to the damages after the attorneys recover reasonable fees - approved by the court - for their services.


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## djp (Jan 3, 2009)

While I totally agree that the maintenance fee increases can be ridiculous (I was much more troubled last year when SMV had the 20% increase, this year it held steady), and our lack of control on the HOA's is wrong, and starwood corporate at times seems either malevolent or incompetent,  the challenge seems to be, how to change things without destroying, the thing we have all paid significant cash to own. In this economy a highly publicized class action lawsuit, with a significant payout, could make it tougher for SVO to survive, at which point we all lose. Merely speculation, as I do not know how strong a position SVO is in,


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## James1975NY (Jan 3, 2009)

You can contact your association "management" and ask for the contact information for the board members of the respective HOA. You probabaly will not get a phone number but you will get a fax and or an e-mail.

I would start with communicating that you are demanding reasonable notification of board meetings. 

Keep your mail! Having a post dated envelope with your untimely notifcation of a board meeting is excellent evidence of your inability to participate. I also manage HOA's in FL with a colleague that has his CAM license and I understand there are serious reprocutions of not providing ample notice of meetings to the HOA members as required by FLA law.

I cannot believe that a two bedroom, two bath villa (Bella) pays $1050 at SVV. Multiply that by 51 and its over 51,000 per year. Then multiply that by the number of villas in the HOA.......are you kidding me? I would love to see the budget. Of course that includes the SVN fee so.......


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 3, 2009)

Not a lawyer...

Because of the separation of the resorts in operation - I more directive law suit may be a better approach.  Chop them down one at a time - because if one falls successfully the others may have to succumb.

The premise of the lawsuit would be straight-forward and not one looking for monetary compensation - and that would be to force the HOA to allow for reasonable and adequate communication between Owners so they can vote in HOA members that represent the Owners.  Sort of the spirit of our forefathers (loosely) - no taxation w/o represenation - since this is essentially the issue.

A directive lasuit could look at one HOA - e.g. 'WKORV' - and force adequate communication between Owners so well-informed decisions with true accountability can be established.


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## pharmgirl (Jan 3, 2009)

To me a potential problem that seemed to occur in st John's is charging a fee for refurbishing units.  bad planning since the yearly fee for our units includes a significant cost to be set aside for future costs.  Furniture in maui seemed already shabby in Feb 2008 in first building


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## Westin5Star (Jan 3, 2009)

*MF Should Decrease for 2009!*

I feel that MF should actually decrease in this economy; not increase by double digits.  

*Many businesses that I know have cut staff and then have taken payroll cuts for employees from between 10-30%.  *Property taxes should also go down because they are based on a percentage of property values.  Finally, costs of cleaning products, carpet, furniture, paint, etc. have and will continue to drop dramatically.  Therefore, almost every single cost of this BUSINESS should be reduced; not increased!

Not a political statement- just a fact:  The government is spending huge amounts of money in this bad economy on bailouts and infrastructure while they continue to hire and give raises.  *Why is Starwood being run like the government and not like a business???*

Based on the facts of the situation, our MF should all have been reduced by at least 10% this year!  I believe that a lawsuit to give owners control of the boards, proper disclosure, and thus appropriate MF is in order.


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## elizfield (Jan 3, 2009)

Maybe the problem is- they are running it like a business. Future purchasers would never buy from them if they talked to current owners- so they've already accounted for that fact in their business model. And unlike EVERYONE ELSE in this economy- they've got us captured!  Watch as they discount the h**l out of a night at any westin just to get business, but they know they can count on us to fund maintenance.


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## CeeWoo (Jan 3, 2009)

Westin5Star said:


> *Why is Starwood being run like the government and not like a business???*
> .



I hope you don't mean like the companies that are getting the bailout funds.  Doesn't seem to me they've been run that well


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## Westin5Star (Jan 4, 2009)

Business should be seeking and taking active steps to make a profit, therefore, the bailout companies do not qualify as true "businesses".  A business also knows that long-term their customers happiness with their products and services is what will keep them in business and profitable.  In this scenario and if Starwood were being run like a business as I feel it should, *we should have all had double digit MF decreases for 2009!  *


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## CeeWoo (Jan 4, 2009)

Westin5Star said:


> therefore, the bailout companies do not qualify as true "businesses".   [/U][/B]



Ok-with a def like that I understand---but I bet GM wouldn't agree


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## calgarygary (Jan 4, 2009)

mbisson said:


> Ok-with a def like that I understand---but I bet GM wouldn't agree



I don't think there are many businesses that exist today that are going to qualify.  I wonder how different the economy would be if executives could only exercise stock options 5 years after they were issued?  At least it would force a longer term picture on them.

As far as *Wood is concerned, my only cost is annual mf as I was reimbursed the original resale purchase price.  Whenever I review their business practices, I believe that I overpaid!


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## Politico (Jan 4, 2009)

calgarygary said:


> As far as *Wood is concerned, my only cost is annual mf as I was reimbursed the original resale purchase price.



Why were you reimbursed the original purchase price?


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## calgarygary (Jan 4, 2009)

Politico said:


> Why were you reimbursed the original purchase price?



Purchased from a pcc, they substituted PGA for VV and sent me a refund which I told them I didn't want.  I wanted a VV.  They replaced the EOY 1 bedroom with an every year 2 bedroom and told me to cash the cheque.  That whole mess is what brought me to tug and I consider myself very lucky that I didn't have to wait until after a developer purchase to find this great board.


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## chuck3810 (Jan 5, 2009)

*maintenance fees*

I bought a resale at Harborside in 2007 and am very concerned about the increase in MF and the lack of transparency regarding how the money is being used.  Atlantis is a great resort and the costs to get access to the water park and aquariam are somewhat understandable but it looks like the 2009 fees may be over $2,400 for a 2br lockout.  The units in also are starting to look tired but there is no indication they will be upgraded with these fees.  I know very little about the relationship between the owners' association and starwood but am interested in learning more and considering any collective action to get more control over the fees.  Thanks


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## j4sharks (Jan 5, 2009)

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the responses.  So two more law firms want to talk to me about the situation.  The first conversation went well and I expect to hear back from that firm soon.

Give me a sense what you would want to see, as Owners, in terms of solutions.  For ex, is our first priority to open up the HOA election process?  Or is it to get more detailed financial statements so we could track our MF dollars with more precision?  Is it a refund from "excessive" MF assessments in years past?  Something else?

Thanks!


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## LisaRex (Jan 5, 2009)

Personally, I'd love to have the HOA process opened up.  If we had someone on the owner's side on the board who had the authority to obtain detailed accounting, etc., that would be a step in the right direction


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## Scott & Laura (Jan 5, 2009)

*MF Increases*

hello;

I would like to see these issues addressed.

1) a complete and transperant accounting and verification of fees and costs
    included in the MF's each year.
        a. how are the fees comprised

2) Is starwood shifting expenses and burdens to existing owners appropriately
        a. Are they paying MF fees on units they rent?
        b. Have they held units off the market and shifting MF's to owners.
            i. Is WKORV really sold out

3) How is Starwood justified in screening potential board members out and on  what basis are they denied the ability to be on the ballot

4) Is starwood using the owner data base to garner votes for their hand picked candidates and using confidentiality to deny owners the same access for lobbying for votes

5) Starwood is making moves to sell off and become a management property. What happens when starwood sells off the Villas and only have a 20 year management arrangement. At the time of refurbishing do they skip with the money? Are the funds for MF's in trust or can Starwood use them for their own uses and if they run into financial difficulties are the funds lost - potential fraud?

6) How are the ownership contracts arranged in the event Starwood is out of the picture, are our ownerships subordinated under Starwoods umbrella, are we owners and Starwood managers, etc.?

7) why doe Starwood insist on representing and implying that they 'excercise' Right of first refusal and that maintenance fees only go up 2-3% a year when you are buying? Starwood is fully aware those statements are wholly untrue.

8) by what right does Starwood stack the board and assert that the owners demanded increases or that we did not want Villas upgrades as elite members, when in fact the "owners ' were not included in the decisions?

9) Why are board meetings not openly disclosed to the owners? 

10) What rights do the owners truly have in Hawaii, St.john, Kauia, Arizona, Florida, and how do they differ in each case?


Scott


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## Fredm (Jan 7, 2009)

Westin5Star said:


> Starwood- Business or Bureaucracy
> After reading the recent posts on the dramatic increases in MF and resort / SVO control of the boards of directors, I started wondering how Starwood is run.  In this economy, I know of many businesses that are dramatically cutting costs while other entities (so as not to make this political) are planning huge spending increases such as bailouts, infrastruture, and continuing to hire new employees.  I know many businesses that have implemented 10-30% paycuts for their entire staffs after laying off many others.  If Starwood is truely a business and because labor and property taxes are a major portion of the MFs, shouldn't we have expected to see a MF decrease this year???
> 
> OK- so we did not get a MF decrease which is just amazing to me but how in the world do they justify a double digit increase.  Maybe they are just a little slow in reacting to things.  I am sure that they have already institued 20% paycuts, reduced their non-sales staff by 20% and have filed with each resort's county to have the property taxes lowered based on the new and reduced property values.



Westin5Star, 

Starwood appears to be a well run business when using the metrics of the hospitality industry as the measuring tool.
They do not have excess employees hanging around with nothing to do.  Executive and other professional positions are a small percentage of the total number of employees. Most are engaged in facilities maintenance, gardening, housekeeping, food service, and similar lower wage jobs. 
They cannot cut the minimum wage that many are paid. It's the law. Minimum is minimum. In fact, overall, you may be surprised to know that Starwood and other branded hospitality companies are extremely efficient at  operations management. It is what they do.

Further, these low wage employees are the personnel who provide the service levels we all enjoy. Cutting the ranks of the service staff will only lower the level of service. 

No, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Now, I have not read the operations management contract that has been awarded to Starwood (by Starwood). So, I am only guessing here. And assumptions can be way off the mark. 

It is important to keep in mind the nature of an OM contract. There are very good business reasons that Starwood, Marriott, Hilton, etc. do not own the properties they hang their shingle on. The real estate, hotels, resorts  are owned by others.  Just like the timeshares are owned by others once Starwood has sold them. 

The OM contract is where the details are. The operations budget simply follows as its numbers are plugged based on contract details.
For example, if the real estate owner has agreed that the OM may select its  suppliers and distributors, the owners may discover that the supplies could be bought for 30% less elsewhere. The OM is not being careless, casual, or sloppy in its acquisitions. They may own the supply business.

And so on. But give credit where credit is due. Starwood is not a government bureaucracy. They are very much a business. 

Then again, I may be giving them credit too freely. If I could only see the OM contract the owners have awarded and agreed to....


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## jhm40cu (Jan 7, 2009)

ian said:


> HOA increases in double digits *every* year?  My property taxes don't even increase that much!  Not only is it appalling, it's a terrible business move that slights the company's supposedly best and most "brand loyal" customers.
> 
> At this rate, WPORV will be $4000+ per year within 5 years!
> 
> I would join a class action suit in a heartbeat.



Yes, I share the same concern. What's the point of owning a TS if MF increase at this rate?


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## 3 stareliter (Jan 10, 2009)

*elite benefits and mf's*

As a 3 star elite member, i was stunned to find out the benefits that where giving to us (including automatic upgrade (if available when you called within 30 days of arrival ) have been revoked .   The other stunning changes that made me crazy, where the changes in the "categories" of the hotels. That change alone cut the value of our starwood points almost in half.
Anyone else upset about this?


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## Westin5Star (Jan 10, 2009)

Fredm said:


> Starwood appears to be a well run business when using the metrics of the hospitality industry as the measuring tool.
> They do not have excess employees hanging around with nothing to do.  Executive and other professional positions are a small percentage of the total number of employees. Most are engaged in facilities maintenance, gardening, housekeeping, food service, and similar lower wage jobs.
> They cannot cut the minimum wage that many are paid. It's the law. Minimum is minimum. In fact, overall, you may be surprised to know that Starwood and other branded hospitality companies are extremely efficient at  operations management. It is what they do.



I want to start by saying that I have stuck up for Starwood many times in the past and I generally do not make a point of saying negative things about them on this forum.  As you know I travel to Starwood's TS's anywhere from 8-12 weeks per year.  I spend a lot of time getting to know the employees and observing what is going on.  I was also in the hospitality industry for 13 years so I have direct experience in managing lower wage employees while providing proper quality, service, and cleanliness.  Based on these facts, here are my comments:

1.  Metrics of hospitality industry / productivity- In addition to our TS travel's we spend 4-5 weeks per year traveling to other resorts (Hyatt, Marriott, Hilton, Private Label, etc.).  There is an obvious lack of productivity at the Starwood TS's vs. resorts that we visit.  At the TS's, I often see the employees standing around chit chatting and not focusing on servicing their guests (this is opposite of what you have stated above but I see it almost every month when I am at a Starwood TS).  For this reason, I often find less employees per guest at resorts while the service at the resorts is almost always better.  I also do want to say that I have had some great service and there are some wonderful SVO employees.
2.  Wages- I have talked to many of the employees at the resorts and most of them are making well over minimum wage.  I realize that the servers and bellmen work on tips and thus may receive a lesser wage.  The maintenance, security, and housekeeping that I have spoken with are all paid well over minimum wage and more than the going or competitive wage for their position.  I have not had conversations with management about what they are paid but with the lack of access to proper information, it is impossible to guage this.  The bottom line is that I do not trust Starwood with this when I see them making such poor purchasing decisions (furniture that doesn't wear well), bad construction decisions (showers at WLR), and the excessive rise in MFs.

I will say that Starwood TSs generally (not always) have the worst service that I have experience at any (nicer) TS or resort.  We stayed at the Royal Sands in June.  I was impressed by the productivity and efficiency of the low wage labor at these resorts.  The service levels and attentiveness of the staff was also amazing.  The resort was much cleaner and better maintained than any Starwood TS that I have visited.  The MFs are about half of what they are at WLR.  I know that there might be a few justifyable reasons for some of this but the bottom line is that SVO is poorly managed.

SVO maybe a "business" but it will not be able to survive if they cannot compete with the competition.  This is what I see:
1.  Reservation system- SVOs is terrible compared to the competition!
2.  Decision Making and Communication- SVO has a history of making decisions that are very bad for their customers and that often lack integrity.  Then they are terrible at how they communicate these decisions.
3.  MF Increases- SVO MFs are much higher than competitors.
4.  Service- As I stated above, the service levels are generally worse than we experience elsewhere.  I tip very well and treat employees great but I regularly receive and see others receiving less than proper service.
5.  Construction Quality- WKORV was much better built than WPROV or WLR. The quality of these newer results is really bad!

We chose SVO for their locations (HRA, WKORV, WLR, and WPORV).  I guess that I am almost hoping that SVO is acquired or merged with a company that can properly manage their properties (unless we proceed with selling them all first).  The bottom line is that I do not see how SVO can justify their large MF increases given the service levels, competition, and current economy.  I see this as a business being run as a bureaucracy and their lack of proper openness and disclosure is part of this.  SVO will not stay in business like this for very long before significant changes (buyout, merger, bankruptcy, or bailout) will happen.


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## docsan (Jan 10, 2009)

*Ridiculous !!!*

i feel it is ridiculous that we as owners of the starwood-st.john property has to put up. I agree completely with everything said here in the posts...not to belabour, thay have misrepresented their sales by witholding crucial info regarding the ownership rights superseded by the starwood company.

the recent increase in the MF's is at the very least exhorbitant. I might as well pay 3000 dollars a year and have a 5 day vacation on any place on earth!! I have already spent 7500 dollars for MF's in 3 years alone...One foruth the price of the property !!! 

I am completely dis-illusioned with the group and have put my unit up for sale on e-bay. i will not recommend this vacation ownetrship to anyone i Know. I am also member of RCI, i feel they have a better program and managament.

i am all for seeking legal recourse....


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## docsan (Jan 10, 2009)

*inside man..*

[Duplicate posts are not allowed on TUG - DeniseM Moderator]


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## docsan (Jan 10, 2009)

*inside man..*

[sorry that should go for FRED M quote...i agree with Westin5star


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## Fredm (Jan 11, 2009)

docsan said:


> [sorry that should go for FRED M quote...i agree with Westin5star



I guess my sarcasm is too subtle. So, I will reconstruct my intended meaning.

The second part of my post said:
*"No, you are barking up the wrong tree......"*

The right tree is the Operations Management Contract Starwood awarded itself.

Continuing with my quote:

*"For example, if the real estate owner has agreed that the OM may select its suppliers and distributors, the owners may discover that the supplies could be bought for 30% less elsewhere. The OM is not being careless, casual, or sloppy in its acquisitions. They may own the supply business."
*

*"And so on. But give credit where credit is due. Starwood is not a government  They are very much a business."
*

In the above example, the operations manager is ordering supplies from a company of their choosing, paying 30% more than is necessary. They are doing so because they profit from it. The OM owns the supply company, and is gouging the owner. Further, the intention to do so was premeditated. Hence , the clause in the OM contract which assigned the selection of vendors to the OM.

My point simply being that  "bureaucracy" is the wrong characterization. 
The term conjures images of an organization that is bloated, and process oriented. 
MF's that routinely increase at these rates, do so mostly by design. These are sharp business people with a keen eye on profits. Not plodding bureaucrats, whose inefficiency is reflected in a bloated budget.

The reasons for the double digit m/f increases are not to be found in the budget.  They are in the management contract.


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## Westin5Star (Jan 11, 2009)

Thanks Fred for the clarification and I think that our differnces revolve around terminology and maybe even what we have experienced at the SVO TSs.  I understand that SVO is not the government, however, the hierarchy and layers of managment, effectively nonelective officials, lack of accountability, poor decision making, and administrative policy making group just don't seem very business like to me.  I see first hand at the resorts a bloated process oriented company.  I believe that you are correct in that the managment contract is the problem.  So the question is how do we get that management contract changed???

Maybe I am an idealist with set views of how a true business should be run.
I might have different opinions than others but I stand by what I see and have experienced in that SVO reminds me more of a bureaucracy than a business.  I often times feel like I am at the DMV when I am at SVO resorts.  There is no doubt that SVO has made some great profits thus far, however, based on their shortsighted (and in my opinoin bureaucratic) methods of managing the business, I see them headed for a bankruptcy, bailout, merger or acquisition.


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## Carolyn (Jan 11, 2009)

Not only are the mf out of control but I always cringe when I see that extra charge EVERY year for my SECOND II account.  I think it is ridiculous I have to maintain TWO just because I own at WSJ.  Owners should only have to pay for one II account PERIOD.  In addition I would NEVER trade by 1 BR there thru II.  Even if I wanted to trade thru Starwood, our WSJ 1 BR is WAY undervalued in the Starwood system.    Thanks for letting me vent   



Carolyn


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## botham (Jan 11, 2009)

I am very grateful for any assistance from my US friends, to find out just how fair these contracts are. It is bad enough trying to work out English law, without having to worry about the American system.

We are unhappy wit our lot at Starwood, particularly the maintenance fees, bot annual and periodic, but just have to pay up and look happy.


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## hacker0124 (Jan 11, 2009)

Our MF for WKV increased 3.3 percent from 2007 to 2008. Our MF for SVV increased 7.8 percent from 2007 to 2008.

We just paid the MF for WLR for 2008 for the first time. no reference yet.

This year I feel these increases are in line with what I would expect in this economy. My operating cost for my home and business have increased greater in some areas.

I fully understand the uproar at a lack of transparency, or representation.

We are happy with our purchases and the resorts.....now. We will see what the future holds!


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## ljsparks (Jan 11, 2009)

*Plan of Action*

I appreciate everyone's input on this topic.  My wife and I just paid our Maui fee's and cannot believe how they are going through the roof.  I am a CFO for a $2B operation and cannot understand the financial statements SVO sends.  It does appear there is overlap in services/management fees etc.  I think we need an attorney with knowledge in this industry to develop a plan of action.  I think we need more representation, transparency, and to let Starwood know they need to make some changes.  I love the property, think they do a reasonable job with service, and don't want to "walk away" or "throw away" our investment; however, we did question how much the fees would go up when purchasing and were told a few percentages per year.  I think a class-action could work; we just need to determine the financial arraignments.  Thanks


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## docsan (Jan 12, 2009)

*lets do the MATH...*

thanks fred for the clarification, I did not meant to go on a tirade against you...just venting my frustrations at the book-keepinf..a la wall street style... nobody gets it!!

Lets' do the simple math.. i am paying 1900 dollars for by 2bedroom villa/week as MF. that multiplied by 52 weeks is 99,000 dollars approx. 
I can't imagine we are spending a 100K on every unit /year across the resort which has approx 146 villas ( total cost averaged to approx 14 mil/ year) for the maintenance of the condos, not to mention the rental and the hotel guest room income to the westin property !!

Maybe I am dumb, But i can't see how we need to spend so much every year to keep up the condos. This does not include the special assessment of approx 1500 dollars this year for future reserves.

Can someone educate me on this...am i way of base?


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## calgarygary (Jan 12, 2009)

docsan said:


> thanks fred for the clarification, I did not meant to go on a tirade against you...just venting my frustrations at the book-keepinf..a la wall street style... nobody gets it!!
> 
> Lets' do the simple math.. i am paying 1900 dollars for by 2bedroom villa/week as MF. that multiplied by 52 weeks is 99,000 dollars approx.
> I can't imagine we are spending a 100K on every unit /year across the resort which has approx 146 villas ( total cost averaged to approx 14 mil/ year) for the maintenance of the condos, not to mention the rental and the hotel guest room income to the westin property !!
> ...



You just need to understand Starwood's methods of operations to get a grasp on why it is necessary to collect $95K/unit at your resort (in timesharing, you typically use 50 weeks not 52).  I'll use Bella's budget of operating expenses as an example.

MF revenue, interest revenue, & late fee revenue total apx. $11,500,000.  There is club rental revenue so it appears that the HOA is being reimbursed by the sales dept. for apx. $317K.  There is misc. revenue, possibly Starwood reimbursing the HOA for use of our units - or maybe it is money found in the couches for a total of $374 (I did not forget the K - it is $374)! 

Let's look at some of the expenses:
Admin & General (management? as there are separate housekeeping,security, etc. lines) $1,603,092.
Management Fees (possibly double charging for above) $1,225,146
Owner Services apx. $683,000
Master Association Dues $1,351,410

To me, it appears that Starwood and its other pocket SVN are getting close to $5,000,000 out of less than $12,000,000.   Hell of a deal for them - not so good for us!  As stated earlier, the problem is with the contract that the HOA has with Starwood and until there is owner control of the HOA, the problem will likely escalate.


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## Ågent99 (Jan 13, 2009)

Thought I'd chime in on this thread and pretty much agree with y'all.

While I don't like the MFs increasing like they have, the real goal we owners need is fair representation.  I'm 100% for that.

It sounds like we almost want to create a union for the owners!!! hahaha


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## Fredm (Jan 13, 2009)

calgarygary said:


> You just need to understand Starwood's methods of operations to get a grasp on why it is necessary to collect $95K/unit at your resort (in timesharing, you typically use 50 weeks not 52).  I'll use Bella's budget of operating expenses as an example.
> 
> MF revenue, interest revenue, & late fee revenue total apx. $11,500,000.  There is club rental revenue so it appears that the HOA is being reimbursed by the sales dept. for apx. $317K.  There is misc. revenue, possibly Starwood reimbursing the HOA for use of our units - or maybe it is money found in the couches for a total of $374 (I did not forget the K - it is $374)!
> 
> ...



Starwood is getting more than the $5 million. 
HOA revenue and expense is internal to the HOA. 
It does not reflect revenue to SVO from their rental of owner units.
I will leave it at that. 

The rental revenue SVO generates for itself via captured owner inventory from all sources system-wide, is best discussed separately.


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## Fredm (Jan 13, 2009)

Westin5Star said:


> Thanks Fred for the clarification and I think that our differnces revolve around terminology and maybe even what we have experienced at the SVO TSs.  I understand that SVO is not the government, however, the hierarchy and layers of managment, effectively nonelective officials, lack of accountability, poor decision making, and administrative policy making group just don't seem very business like to me.  I see first hand at the resorts a bloated process oriented company.  I believe that you are correct in that the managment contract is the problem.  So the question is how do we get that management contract changed???
> 
> Maybe I am an idealist with set views of how a true business should be run.
> I might have different opinions than others but I stand by what I see and have experienced in that SVO reminds me more of a bureaucracy than a business.  I often times feel like I am at the DMV when I am at SVO resorts.  There is no doubt that SVO has made some great profits thus far, however, based on their shortsighted (and in my opinoin bureaucratic) methods of managing the business, I see them headed for a bankruptcy, bailout, merger or acquisition.



Get the management contract changed? It would be a giant step if we can get to read it. Assuming that is even possible (probably not), owners have no voting clout under the current association agreements.

You have every right and justification to be critical of what falls short of your standards. You paid (and continue to pay) a lot of money with the expectation of a certain vacation experience. 

To highlight how truly absurd the SVO / Owner relationship really is, consider that at this point you do not even know if your resort personnel issues (level of service aside) are costing SVO or the HOA. That would depend on whether the management contract is "cost plus" or  "percentage off the top"
based. Not that it matters to how it affects your experience. It doesn't. The motivation to do something about it does.

I agree with you. Our differences are mostly of terminology. Perhaps our resort experiences have been different. No matter. I believe that I understand your frustration and disappointment very well. It is not caused by a single bad vacation or interaction. It is outright offensive to conclude that you are being abused by SVO, and they really don't care. The proverbial double whammy of adding insult to injury.

If anything, I view the very premise of the SVO system audacious. It is designed to capture and leverage owner inventory for the long term benefit of SVO. Little doubt that it occurs at the expense of, and restrictions on, the owner. The business construct which enables its successful execution is brilliant, IMO. So, I hold a grudging respect for it.  But, it does dispel me of any notion that the company has owner satisfaction in its core business values.


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## calgarygary (Jan 13, 2009)

Fredm said:


> Starwood is getting more than the $5 million.
> HOA revenue and expense is internal to the HOA.
> It does not reflect revenue to SVO from their rental of owner units.
> I will leave it at that.
> ...



Fred, I implied that Starwood was ripping off the owners by mentioning the misc. income of $374 was either reimbursing the HOA for use of the units or $ found in the couches.  By the way, these numbers are for Bella only as there are separate HOA's for Key West, Amelia and St. Augustine at Vistana Villages.  It is a heck of a deal for Starwood, they must be clearing 8 figures out of VV with the owners on the hook for expenses.  It looks like we even bought mgt. new laptops as there is a fee of $73,163 for data processing - oh wait, that must be our share of the new, soon to be announced, state of the art reservation system.



> But, it does dispel me of any notion that the company has owner satisfaction in its core business values.


Me too!


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## jarta (Jan 13, 2009)

Fred,   ...   "Get the management contract changed? It would be a giant step if we can get to read it. Assuming that is even possible (probably not), owners have no voting clout under the current association agreements."

Rather than bitching here about never being able to see the Bella management contract, how about requesting it, reading it and letting us know how it is deficient?

Subsection 12 of Section 718.111 (The association) of the Florida Condominium Act covers "Official Records."  (a) of the subsection defines the official records as:

"9.  A current copy of any management agreement, lease, or other contract to which the association is a party or under which the association or the unit owners have an obligation or responsibility."

Any written request to make public records available must be complied with 
within 10 working days.

Moreover, the statute further states:

"(c)  The official records of the association are open to inspection by any association member or the authorized representative of such member at all reasonable times. The right to inspect the records includes the right to make or obtain copies, at the reasonable expense, if any, of the association member. The association may adopt reasonable rules regarding the frequency, time, location, notice, and manner of record inspections and copying. The failure of an association to provide the records within 10 working days after receipt of a written request shall create a rebuttable presumption that the association willfully failed to comply with this paragraph. *A unit owner who is denied access to official records is entitled to the actual damages or minimum damages for the association's willful failure to comply with this paragraph. The minimum damages shall be $50 per calendar day up to 10 days, the calculation to begin on the 11th working day after receipt of the written request. The failure to permit inspection of the association records as provided herein entitles any person prevailing in an enforcement action to recover reasonable attorney's fees from the person in control of the records who, directly or indirectly, knowingly denied access to the records for inspection.* The association shall maintain an adequate number of copies of the declaration, articles of incorporation, bylaws, and rules, and all amendments to each of the foregoing, as well as the question and answer sheet provided for in s. 718.504 and year-end financial information required in this section on the condominium property to ensure their availability to unit owners and prospective purchasers, and may charge its actual costs for preparing and furnishing these documents to those requesting the same. Notwithstanding the provisions of this paragraph, the following records shall not be accessible to unit owners: ... (mainly privileged information)."

Here's where to find the Florida condo act:

http://www.ccfj.net/condo718statutes.html#718.111

Since I'm not too upset by the MF I pay, I'm not going to hassle Starwood or the associations about them.  But, now you have a roadmap.  Get going!


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## jarta (Jan 13, 2009)

Here's a better link - one to the State of Florida Legislature web site:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...teYear=2008&Title=->2008->Chapter 718->Part I

The other link is to a 2007 version.  This version of Section 718.111 is the latest version (but it looks the same to me).       ...   eom


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## Fredm (Jan 14, 2009)

jarta said:


> Fred,   ...   "Get the management contract changed? It would be a giant step if we can get to read it. Assuming that is even possible (probably not), owners have no voting clout under the current association agreements."
> 
> Rather than bitching here about never being able to see the Bella management contract, how about requesting it, reading it and letting us know how it is deficient?
> 
> ...





*"Rather than bitching here about never being able to see the Bella management contract, how about requesting it, reading it and letting us know how it is deficient?"

*

Thank you for the road map. 
The comment I made was not in regard to VV Bella, or any other Florida timeshare. Your effort is nonetheless appreciated. 

I also did not claim or suggest that the management agreement I was referring to was "deficient".  I had voiced no complaint about them.

Nor was I "bitching" about anything. I was commiserating with a fellow Tugger about experiences he shared with this board, and his opinions of them. In that dialog, I suggested that the operations management agreement would offer better insight to fees, and services. Of course, that is true. I also stated that I had not read them. And while I did comment about the difficulty in obtaining a copy, the substance was not in being able to change them.  
What is your point, if any?

*"Since I'm not too upset by the MF I pay, I'm not going to hassle Starwood or the associations about them.  But, now you have a roadmap.  Get going!"
* 

Jarta, I do not recall ever, not once, ever, saying or implying that I was upset with the m/f' s I pay. Not in this thread, or any other. But, I would not consider an inquiry about them a hassle to those who publish and account for them, upset or not. 

But, you are upset about SOMETHING. Before you get yourself worked up,   take the time to actually read and understand the  course of the thread, and the comments you are too quick to criticize. Until then, your self- righteous and misplaced comments do not constructively contribute to the discussion.  Did you say "Get going!"?


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## jarta (Jan 14, 2009)

Fred,   ...   "What is your point, if any?"

My point is that you imply that Starwood is made up of sharp business people who are increasing MF unnecessarily through the use of the management contract.  Yet, you have not taken the time to request that management contract.  It is undoubtedly a lengthy document.  

Should Starwood send a copy to every unit owner every time a budget is adopted?  Or, should Starwood follow the Florida statute and make the document available upon request?

Same for the budget detail, same for the monthly financials and yearly audits, same for the contracts for repairs and the bills and records of payment.  All are "official records" under the Florida statute, subsection 12 (Records) of section 718.111 of the Florida Condominium Act.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...teYear=2008&Title=->2008->Chapter 718->Part I

There has been constant carping here about MF increases (see the title of the thread) and claims made that Starwood is intentionally not "transparent" enough.  But, there has not been any statement that any property managed by Starwood has refused a request for an official record.

I am not defending the amount of the MF increases or implying that Starwood never sneaks costs incurred by it that should *not* be paid by the HOA (or POA) into the budget.  What I am saying is that those who complain that Starwood is doing just that should first make a request to see the documents, read them and, then, point out where the impropriety occurs or is made possible - not just speculate that impropriety exists because the MF went up.  

It's a matter of fairness to the boards in charge of the properties and the management company, Starwood.

As for whether you have never said or implied that you were upset about your MF, I'll let people read your posts on this thread and decide for themselves about implications in your posts.

While you consider my comments "self righteous and misplaced," they were made in response to your misinformed and erroneous comment: "Get the management contract changed? It would be a giant step if we can get to read it. *Assuming that is even possible (probably not), *owners have no voting clout under the current association agreements."

And, rather than speculation, my post contained factual information (and a challenge you are obviously not interested in meeting).

You and anyone else now have a blueprint for obtaining information from Starwood considered necessary to evaluate their MF.  I think the blueprint should be used by those who don't agree with their MF and consider Starwood not transparent enough to, if necessary, coerce transparency.  I assume you noticed that minimum daily damages and attorney fees are to be awarded if the request for information is not complied with.  Owners are not without protections under the statute.

Since you were commenting about Bella and do not list where you own in your TUG profile, I assumed you owned at Bella.  You say you don't.  However, if you own elsewhere, the condo act of every state I know of provides for the release of similar information to owners upon request.  Florida is not unique.       ...   eom


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## Scott & Laura (Jan 16, 2009)

*MF Increases*

I did attempt to get an understanding and clarification of the MF fee increases from Starwood.

I asked at several owner updates about the MF fees. At one session the gentleman gave me a suggestion of who to try to contact and an email address to try.

I followed through and emailed my questions and request about clarifying how the MF fees were calculated for WKORV. I also asked about why the MF's were increasing at a higher prate then they are telling people in the sales presentations.

Starwood responded that they did not have to provide the information.  I figured that was a mistake and attempted on several other times to get the info. My last understanding from Starwood was that their legal department indicated they did not have to provide that information.

In a "Service industry" rife with horror stories and documented abuses, transparency and above board dealings to insure comfort with fee increases and a thorough explanation of such fees are of paramount importance. Any MBA is schooled in getting customers to complain and and often so that corrections can be made.A satisfied customer who had problems resolved favorably is more loyal than a customer who never had any issues. Its good business.

The fact that Starwood does not give a straightforward clear and concise explanation of their MF fee increases and post them on their web site is poor business at the least. Confusion breeds resentment and dissatisfaction. 

The overt refusal and legal department stating they doi not have to clarify at best creates a modicum of distrust. 

Its an honest and fair question to ask- WHY HAVE THE MF FEES GONE UP AT SUCH A HIGH %. We are asked to pay blindly and trust them.

Starwood knows that by not answering this damages the owners trust relationship - AND YET THEY REFUSE.

It begets the question  - why don't they answer and why are MF going up at a faster rate than Starwood represents to potential purchasers?

Its a service company in an industry known to have ripped off people. Its like defending brokerage houses who say trust me with your money. Unaddressed fears and concerns will beget distrust and anger.

Why does Starwood want concerned owners when its easy issue to address in a straightforward manner.

Scott


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## Scott & Laura (Jan 16, 2009)

*MF Increases*

I did attempt to get an understanding and clarification of the MF fee increases from Starwood.

I asked at several owner updates about the MF fees. At one session the gentleman gave me a suggestion of who to try to contact and an email address to try.

I followed through and emailed my questions and request about clarifying how the MF fees were calculated for WKORV. I also asked about why the MF's were increasing at a higher rate then STARWOOD was telling people in the sales presentations 3-4 % a year maximum.

Starwood responded that they did not have to provide the information.  I figured that was a mistake and attempted on several other times to get the info. My last understanding from Starwood was that their legal department indicated they did not have to provide that information.

In a "Service industry" rife with horror stories and documented abuses, transparency and above board dealings to insure comfort with fee increases and a thorough explanation of such fees are of paramount importance. Any MBA is schooled in getting customers to complain and and often so that corrections can be made.A satisfied customer who had problems resolved favorably is more loyal than a customer who never had any issues. Its good business.

The fact that Starwood does not give a straightforward clear and concise explanation of their MF fee increases and post them on their web site is poor business at the least. Confusion breeds resentment and dissatisfaction. 

The overt refusal and legal department stating they doi not have to clarify at best creates a modicum of distrust. 

Its an honest and fair question to ask- WHY HAVE THE MF FEES GONE UP AT SUCH A HIGH %. We are asked to pay blindly and trust them.

Starwood knows that by not answering this damages the owners trust relationship - AND YET THEY REFUSE.

It begets the question  - why don't they answer and why are MF going up at a faster rate than Starwood represents to potential purchasers?

Its a service company in an industry known to have ripped off people. Its like defending brokerage houses who say trust me with your money. Unaddressed fears and concerns will beget distrust and anger.

Why does Starwood want concerned owners when its easy issue to address in a straightforward manner.

Scott


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## jarta (Jan 17, 2009)

Scott & Laura,   ...   What I posted is that Starwood must make available to you all types of information.  I did not say that Starwood has to explain to you what the informations means.  They do not.  You have to do that yourself.

The short answer is that MF are tied to expenditures.  If the expenditures keep rising, the MF must go up to cover the increasing expenditures - or else the property will run at a loss.

I have served on community property boards the last 6 years.  None were Starwood's.  I can tell you that the cost of property insurance went through the roof after 9-11.  Was it that Osama really had his eye on our property?  Or, was it an insurance company gouging.  But, you need insurance.  Same thing goes for the cost of electricity.  Same goes for landscaping costs.  In general, same goes for taxes.

And, popular timeshare locations, running almost full tilt almost every week, tend to beat up the furniture quicker than furniture in one's home.  They are victims of their own success because the more use; the quicker the furniture needs to be replaced.  As with every property, while it is fresh and new (when most people buy), the maintenance costs are low; as it ages, more attention has to be paid to maintaining the property.  Or, the property begins to resemble those timeshares in the middle of the woods that nobody wants to go to - or even manage.

In the end, the question must be this: even with higher maintenance fees, is there still value to you in keeping the timeshare.  Do you enjoy it enough to pay the cost?  These are questions that must be answered individually.  And, not all answers need be the same.  Nobody guarantees the wisdom of your investment, be it a share of stock, a home or a timeshare.  The prices of all are dropping.  It's a tough economy!

But, if you want to see the reason for the increases in MF for the last few years, I think a good start would be to take a look at the financials and look to see the increase in expenses for the last few years.  Unless the property is running a profit that is being channeled into the reserve fund to avoid paying taxes on it, I think you will see that previous year's expenses and the next year's budget and MF necessary to balance it track closely.

I feel Starwood can be at times high handed, inefficient and frustrating to deal with.  However, I am happy because I think it runs the best, most flexible timeshare operation in the industry.  But, you are entitled to a different opinion.   

Finally, you can look at the Marriott board and the Hilton board and the Wyndham board (and anywhere else) and you will see many complaints about increasing MF for timeshare unit owners.  The complaints here are not unique.


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## Politico (Jan 17, 2009)

Jarta--

Do you work for Starwood? Seems like maybe so...


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## pharmgirl (Jan 17, 2009)

"And, popular timeshare locations, running almost full tilt almost every week, tend to beat up the furniture quicker than furniture in one's home. They are victims of their own success because the more use; the quicker the furniture needs to be replaced. As with every property, while it is fresh and new (when most people buy), the maintenance costs are low; as it ages, more attention has to be paid to maintaining the property. Or, the property begins to resemble those timeshares in the middle of the woods that nobody wants to go to - or even manage."

Agree - that is why I am concerned about MFs, these have a charge included -pretty substantial that is supposed to cover relacing furniture,etc.  However, it appears that some locations (STJ?) have also addded on a substantial fee when updating - why is this occpuring??? if renovation fees are charged at time of updating then REMOVE the yearly "replacement charge"


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## jarta (Jan 17, 2009)

Politico,   ...   "Do you work for Starwood? Seems like maybe so..."

Never worked for Starwood.  Never represented them.  Never talk to anyone there except the people I call when I'm making a reservation or when I'm staying at a resort.  All I do is own there.  I'm an attorney in Chicago.

But, as I said in prior posts, I just voluntarily retired from being on homeowner association boards for the last six years.  During that time, I had interaction with that small percentage of non-board owners who constantly complained and wanted to micro-manage the association without any idea of how it functioned.  I think every association has them.

They are compelled by their nature to complain.  They do not want to learn how the property functions and do not realize why a suggestion that seems practical to them may be practically impossible.  So, because the property manager and the board will not promptly do exactly what they suggest, they make noise.

It's part of the loss of control people accept (sometimes very grudgingly) when they own in an association community.  Community living is not for everyone.

What I find particularly irritating is that most of the complaining here is by people who it is apparent wouldn't know how to understand a budget or a financial report - if they even took the proper steps and the time to look at a copy.

Again, I'll repeat that Starwood is not perfect.  It is a large, impersonal company that can be accused of being high handed, inefficient and frustrating to deal with.  I assume it's property management division is quite profitable.  But, overall, I think it has the best, most flexible timeshare system at a reasonable cost given the amenities, location and quality of the properties.  

So, rather than worrying excessively about the increases in MF that all timeshare properties seem to be suffering, I will enjoy my vacations from the cold - 3 of them over the next 10 weeks.

And, you have every right to disagree with me.  But, I have as much right as you to post here.  So, please don't impugn my motive for posting by snidely implying I work for Starwood.       ...   eom


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## Politico (Jan 17, 2009)

jarta said:


> And, you have every right to disagree with me.  But, I have as much right as you to post here.  So, please don't impugn my motive for posting by snidely implying I work for Starwood.



As you concede, as much as you have every right to be a Starwood apologist, I have every right to criticize your rationale/motive. And we'll leave it at that...


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## LisaRex (Jan 17, 2009)

jarta said:


> What I find particularly irritating is that most of the complaining here is by people who it is apparent wouldn't know how to understand a budget or a financial report - if they even took the proper steps and the time to look at a copy.



I'm the Budget Coordinator for a Fortune 25 international corporation. I assure you that I know how budgets work and how to read financial reports.  As such, I'm also well acquainted how the game works; one can hide a myriad of sins in a topline report.  The real discernment begins with the details. 

Example:

Topline report: 

Furniture Replacement - $125,000

Sounds reasonable.  But I'd like more details.  Because $125,000 to replace 500 teak lounge chairs ($250 apiece) is reasonable.  $125,000 to replace 50 lounge chairs ($2500 apiece) is not.  That is the difference between fiscal management and fiscal mismanagement. 

****

What I find irritating is someone who pats me on the head and tells the little lady to just pay up and shut up.  Blind faith in anything is idiotic; blind faith in a corporation that even you believe to be "high handed, inefficient and frustrating to deal with" is doubly idiotic.


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## jarta (Jan 17, 2009)

Lisa,   ...   Last year it cost me and my wife about $230 each to fly round trip from Chicago to Phoenix on Southwest.  This year it's almost $400 per person.  By comparison, my MF at Kierland for a Platinum 2-br went up $50.

My tickets for this month's trip to Cancun on were bought last January and cost $330 per person.  That type of price is merely a pipedream now.

The cost to fly to Hawaii, forgeddaboudit (and, apparently, many have.  The most vocal complainers here own in Hawaii.)

But, if you want to stay at a hotel in Hawaii or Cancun or Scottsdale, in addition to the hotel charges, you have to get there.  Is that Starwood's fault?

I've seen posts about the Jonas Brothers concerts at Harborside this Spring break.  People seem to be saying they will spend the $195 per ticket for their kids.  Thank goodness my kids are grown and the grandkids are small.  And, yet, there are complaints about potential increases in MF at Harborside -even though MSC says a reduction may occur.

I know the MF at Kierland are low, but I have 2 nice lockoff rooms for a 2009 week in March for less than $1,1500 in MF (or could have reserved 1 nice room for 14 days for the same price).  And, I can use the Kierland Hotel facilities.  How much would similar lodging at the Kierland Hotel cost?  Is my timeshare a bargain - even figuring in the cost of amortization of my initial investment?  You bet it is!

I think my timeshares in Cancun are also a bargain.  Harborside is less a bargain, but I bought (secondary market) with my eyes open.  And, with the StarPoints I got from Starwood, I'm staying for 3 days (2 rooms each day) this June in Copenhagen before and after a Baltic cruise for "free" (60,000 options, really, out of 300,000 I got with my Starwood purchases).

The problem is that vacationing has become much more expensive in the last year and timesharing, while still cheaper than almost anything else, is more expensive than it was.  Such is life these days.  As I said, I'm glad my kids are grown.

Now, I've got better things to do (like enjoying my bargains) than belly-aching about a $50 increase at Kierland, no increase (yet) at Cancun and a posted potential decrease at Harborside and poring through Starwood financials and budgets looking for minute savings.  I did that for 6 years while on the board of my HOA associations and still do it virtually every day in my law practice.  Now, like most everyone here, I need to enjoy vacations.

But, you may do as you wish.  However, unfortunately, I doubt you will end up making stays at Starwood timeshare destinations substantially cheaper.       ...   eom


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## LisaRex (Jan 17, 2009)

I wouldn't "bellyache" about anything if my MFs only increased $50/year.  As long as Starwood is allowed to stacks the HOAs, I don't trust them to represent my interests.  You don't put the fox in charge of the hen house.


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## Troopers (Jan 17, 2009)

It's interesting to me that the "lack of love for Starwood" recently (6 to 9 months ago) surfaced here on TUG.   My recollection years ago (prior to Starwood having it's independent sub-forum) that there were few complaints.  There were few complaints about MF and this and that but certainly not to the same extent as today.  

Just an observation....I haven't thought about it too much so I'm not sure what it really means anyways.

Btw, forgive me if my memory is failing me...


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## DeniseM (Jan 17, 2009)

Troopers said:


> It's interesting to me that the "lack of love for Starwood" recently (6 to 9 months ago) surfaced here on TUG.   My recollection years ago (prior to Starwood having it's independent sub-forum) that there were few complaints.  There were few complaints about MF and this and that but certainly not to the same extent as today.
> 
> Just an observation....I haven't thought about it too much so I'm not sure what it really means anyways.
> 
> Btw, forgive me if my memory is failing me...



We've actually had a separate forum for 14 mos.  The onset of the disenchantment with Starwood, and the addition of the forum, are just a coincidence.  

The real issue is that Starwood has made all kinds of changes during that time which devalued our ownership, while at the same time raising  maintenance fees, and levying high special assessments, at several resorts.  

At the same time, Starwood's lack of communication with owners has been dismal to the point of being intentional, and they seem to be completely unaware of the state of our economy, and the impact on owners.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 17, 2009)

LR and DM posts are EXACTLY correct...

e.g. - whether or not Starwood sales passes misinfomation about MF increases is not the point - they can claim almost anything verbally because of the 'negma' clause - anything signed in the contract overrides what was committed verbally.

the overriding issue - is the 'intentional' blocking by SVO for Owner access to to the HOA, and fair representation (not talking anarchy here...)

...whether they are fairly overseeing the resort or not.


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## Ken555 (Jan 17, 2009)

LisaRex said:


> Blind faith in anything is idiotic; blind faith in a corporation that even you believe to be "high handed, inefficient and frustrating to deal with" is doubly idiotic.



I agree completely. We need more transparency from SVN on the budgets (and everything else).


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## Troopers (Jan 17, 2009)

I echo the concerns raised by others.  However, in my life, there are more much important things that need and deserve my time, effort and energy.

To answer the OP's question about the increasing MFs, I'm ok with it.


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## Scott & Laura (Jan 17, 2009)

*Mf Fees*

I apologize to Jarta;

I had neglected to state that prior to my emails requesting clarifications from Starwood that I had asked for the financial statements for WKORV. I had wished to look at them and get a sense of what was happening.

Jarta as an attorney and i am sure you would agree, that when presented a yearly bill for expenses and other items, that one can meaningfully review them for legitimacy and accuracy, in light of the fact we are "OWNERS".

I would suggest looking at the weekly charges for electricity per room and extrapolate that for 52 weeks, its seems exceedingly excessive, on the face but may be entirely appropriate. One can't know unless records are made available for inspection, and Starwood has refused to.

I think owners asking to review and an explanation from a management company is entirely reasonable, despite the fact you served on an owners group.Starwood has done everything possible to exclude owners from the annual meeting, such as refusal to send reasonable notice.

I am taken aback by your uneducated and quick pronouncement that the TUG members would not have the ability to read or understand financials, and imply somehow you are better able to.

Scott.


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## DeniseM (Jan 17, 2009)

Troopers said:


> I echo the concerns raised by others.  However, in my life, there are more much important things that need and deserve my time, effort and energy.



Fair enough, but if that's true, why are you reading and responding to all these posts?


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## Troopers (Jan 17, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> Fair enough, but if that's true, why are you reading and responding to all these posts?



I was fortunate to have discovered TUG several yrs ago which allowed me to purchase my TS (and a pending second wk at WKORV).  I would have never paid the developer's price.  Without TUG, I would have never purchased a TS.  And so, I'm grateful to you, other TUGgers and TUG...I owe much more than a $10 annual membership.

My statement is in regards to actually doing something about the issues.  Simply voicing it here is somewhat fruitless.  I applaud those that are going to do something about it....to get Starwood to do the right thing.  I believe that it will take considerable effort.  We all pick our own battles...mine is the local government (not intended to get political here).  Until these issues or future issues start to become a serious problem for me, my available time to fight for the good fight will not be Starwood.


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## jarta (Jan 18, 2009)

Scott & Laura,   ...   "Jarta as an attorney and i am sure you would agree, that when presented a yearly bill for expenses and other items, that one can meaningfully review them for legitimacy and accuracy, in light of the fact we are "OWNERS"."

Sure, you can obtain all sorts of official documents.  And, for Florida timeshares, I posted what are considered official documents, how to request them and even highlighted the area of the statute where liquidated damages of at least $50 per day should be awarded (plus attorney's fees) to the requestor if the request is not timely complied with (within 10 days).  The person who implied you can't get documents didn't seem interested in using the statute.

Here's a link to the Hawaii statute about what is available:

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol12_Ch0501-0588/HRS0514B/HRS_0514B-0154.htm

Maybe you'd want to use it.

And how would you "meaningly review" a yearly bill for a category of expense?  Would you ask to see each of the paid bills for the preceding year so you could check the price and total them up?  Or, would you look at the figures in the auditor's yearly report and rely on his certification that the numbers are accurate?

I'm sorry but, like Troopers, I have better things to do than pore through old bills - like enjoy my weeks in the sun.    

As for why Troopers and I respond to posts here, the thread is about how you feel about MF increases.  Funny, but nobody asks why you post on this thread.  You are very concerned.  We are not.  All of us TUGgers have a right to post here about how we feel about MF increases.  

For my 5 weeks (all 2-br or larger in Platinum), the total increase so far - Harborside is MIA - is about $50.  So, is it surprising that I don't see much of a problem?   ...   eom


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 18, 2009)

I am sorry, but if this is not your battle - then why post and insinuate that we are clueless and non-productive?  Talk about being non-productive...

From my personal WSJ experience - I had some success in getting the WSJ-VG HOA to respond to ongong and increasing maintenance issues by starting a small group of Owners to speak-up.  So an Owner revolt can be successful and have impact.  (of course - now they are charging us a special assessment of $2400 over 3 years... lol).

As I have eluded to - it may be better to localize the battle to a particular resort than SVO as a whole.  In addition - it is probably be wise to pick a battle than can be successful with little cost - outside of a time commitment.

So how about proposing a plan focusing on WKORV?

As stated - a big issue is the lack of Owner represention and transparency on SVO HOAs that impact many of the issues being discussed here. This is what I like to see changed and have some hope that it can be altered.

Since many Tuggers that post here own WKORV (although many more read this forum w/o posting) and many of the HOA issues are reflective of what is happening at WKORV - I propose we focus on WKORV (and perhaps other SVO HOA will be forced to follow).

Also - I own at WKORV - so I have selfish reasons...

What does this mean?

First, is to find those here willing to spend the time and effort.

Second, would be to go over the docs in WKORV OM to find out what rights we have, and where there are gaps that can be exploited to meet the following initial goal:

1) Forcing the WKORV HOA to have better communication between Owners, and between Owners and the HOA.

After this goal is attained - then perhaps the others can be acheived (e.g. transparancy, accountability, etc.).

So... how about it? Who's in?  I am...
{sorry to focus on WKORV - but I think the best hope is here}


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## vacationtime1 (Jan 18, 2009)

Although WKORV would be a good place to start, it will be difficult.  The section "Special Rights of the Developer . . . " (paragraph 17 of the final section of the WKORV disclosure documentation, and very accurately named) includes the following provision:"The Association must furnish a list of the Owners to the Developer upon request.  It may not furnish the list to anyone else without first notifying the Developer and giving the Developer an opportunity to object to release of the list."​This makes it tough to get any large group of owners organized or even to get homeowner representation on the Board.  The paragraph does not provide the basis on which the Developer may object and the provision may be illegal or unenforceable, especially insofar as it restricts electioneering for HOA Board membership.  But it puts a gigantic roadblock in the path of forcing accountability.  

This provision is a perfect example of the opaqueness about which many in this thread have complained. It very strongly suggests that Starwood is not very likely to ever change this policy.

As I have said in other posts -- if Starwood did not have such fabulous properties, I would sell them all.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks - this is exactly the discourse I am proposing here - I think that this may be a point of opportunity/challenge.


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## Westin5Star (Jan 18, 2009)

David,
You can count me in.  I cannot devote a ton of time to this but I would be happy participate in some planning meetings and to tackle some smaller projects delegated to me.  For me it is about the principle of the situation!


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## LisaRex (Jan 18, 2009)

Count me in. 

Lisa


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## Scott & Laura (Jan 18, 2009)

*Mf Fee Inceases*

In reply to Jarta;

Thank You for the link, it is helpful. I am surprised to see that Starwood is required to provide the finacials for inspection. I received a reponse from Starwood that their legal counsel stated they did not have to provide that information, and all I could get was the 10K consolidated thats published.

WKORV is a more upscale timeshare and I am sure that numerous business owners, executives, CPA's and such who regularily utilize finacials are owners.

I personally wanted to start with the finacial information that Starwood is required to keep, and it looks like provide. It sheds a tremendous amount of light on the operations, maintenance etc. This is the starting point and is the most prudent place to begin.


I would not second guess peoples motives, I would think as an attorney, Jarta you would be more patient with people, some of your responses are giving a sense of attacking the intellect and motives of others.I am sure that is not what you are trying to do.

This topic and the subsequent posts are clearly conveying that most people are ignorant of the what and why's, and in some cases confused as to what is happening. No extant reply to this post, has yet articulated clearly and concisely, why the fees are increasing at a substantial rate and exactly what they are comprised of.  It very well may be that a complete remodel may occur every 10 years and be completely paid for. At about $ 90,000.00 a year in taxes and MF's, certainly a better breakdown is in order.

The fee increases may be very well be appropriate and a sign of the times. Starwoods failure and it appears, according to Jarta's legal requirements, a resistance to providing clearer explanations. 

I purchased several weeks with Starwood as I thought our kids would never be able to afford them, and it could be conveyed through the family.I am concerned at the MF increases as at the rate of increase my kids would possibly be forced to sell. Much like a city assesing farmers for improvements and forcing the farmers to sell to developers. My neighbors across the street are in that situation know.

Quality legal representation looking into things removes personal emotions and can effect a better clarification, which benefits all. 

I have reservations because Starwood twice has callously handled mistakes they have made. Ourmost recent occured In December at St. John.

 personally paid an increased fee for an explorer package to St.John. We really wanted to buy. We received "IN WRITING" that we had a large 2 bedroom in the new development, and a Sunday morning appointment to talk about the property. Starwood substituted a smaller unit, we had friends with. The TV's did not work because of the snow on the channels. The air conditioner did not work, and the towel bars and tub faucet were uninstalled. We went to our appointed time and Starwood said they would not attend and we had to reschedule.  Starwood missed another appointment and told us we had to come in for a third, we went for our third wasted morning and said we would not purchase.We are now told that we did not meet the proper requirements and did not attend our scheduled meeting. The fact that Starwood did not honor the meeting in writing or the rescheduled time is irrelevant to them. One manager in Florida has been very apologetic but said Starwood is unwilling to resolve things and feels we should attended a fourth meeting.All this for about $4000. A Starwood manager told my wife a few days ago that because we did not schedule and attend a fourth meeting we did not properly qualify for the starpoints. One manager at Starwood has tried to help for over a month and he says his hands are tied but has credited the staroptions, and that Starwood is unwilling to do anything about the less expensive room. We had because of the bad experience just offered to swap one of our Hawaii weeks for St.John and asked if they would just credit us for two more days for the small room substitution and the three half days. Starwood is unwilling. 

I am skeptical about the MF fees, but wish to look inot them for piece of mind.

Scott


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## DeniseM (Jan 18, 2009)

jarta said:


> As for why Troopers and I respond to posts here, the thread is about how you feel about MF increases.  Funny, but nobody asks why you post on this thread.  *You are very concerned.  We are not. * All of us TUGgers have a right to post here about how we feel about MF increases.



You absolutely do have a right to post here.  That was not my point.  My point is, if you are not concerned about this issue, why keep reading and responding?

Another reason you may be less concerned, and I'm just speculating, is that maybe it's not a financial hardship for you?  There are several posters here who have stated that these huge assessments are going to be a burden for them.  A retired Starwood owner just wrote about that yesterday.  They are considering defaulting on their MF and assessment because they are on a fixed income and just can't pay them.  

I'm a CA teacher - There is a good chance that I'm going to get a layoff notice in March, after 30 years of teaching.  You better believe I am concerned about escalating maintenance fees and special assessments!  Considering the state of the economy, if Starwood really cared about their owners, they'd cancel these special assessments and wait for the economy to improve.  

Everyone is welcome to post their opinions here, but let's remember the TUG rule of courtesy. - Thanks!


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## jarta (Jan 18, 2009)

Scott & Laura,   ...   "In reply to Jarta;  Thank You for the link, it is helpful."

You are welcome.  I thought providing the links to the statutes was the most productive thing I could do since it seemed a lot of posters didn't know where to start and were misinformed about their right to information.

The information must be made available.  A detailed explanation of the meaning of each piece of information is not required  (nor is it practical for Starwood or the POA to provide an answer to every question posed).  Ergo, the mailing of the budget.  

Start with the most recent audited financial statement, the declaration and the management contract.  Use common sense.  And, GLTY.       ...   eom


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## jarta (Jan 18, 2009)

Denise,   ...   I have stated several times said that it might be the economy or the fact that someone stretched to purchase the timeshare that is causing the complaints about MF.

But, is that what people (except me and now you) have been mentioning?

What is being challenged is the necessity of the expenditures themselves and the amount of money Starwood makes from managing the properties.  Or, even, the motives of the board members.

I have no problem with revolts about MF.  Everyone wants to see efficient use of MF.  The more information people receive; the more I think they should be convinced that the money being expended at Starwood timeshare locations is actually necessary.  So, go to it!

I'd like to think we all bought at Starwood because it is, if not as posh as Four Seasons, a really great, flexible, up-scale timeshare system.  I didn't want to buy at lesser places whose owners only dream about being lucky enough to trade into a Starwood place though II.  I'd like to see Starwood places stay like that.  So, a revolt that merely results in a lower standard of amenities where I own is not what I want.  Eventually, like has apparently happened at St. John, larger expenses will be necessary due to deferred maintenance and there will not be enough money in the reserve fund.

And, the economy is tough for everyone.   ...   eom


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## DeniseM (Jan 18, 2009)

jarta - I have a hypothetical question for you.  We both own at WKORV, so I will use it as my example.

Let's say that when WKORV is 10 years old, Starwood decides to completely redecorate and replace all the appliances.  At this point the MF for the 2 bdm. is $2,600 a year, and for 3 years, you are going to pay an extra $1,200.  So for three years your MF + special assessment will be $3,800.

Do you:

1) Pay it with no question.
2) Pay it with no question, but criticize Starwood on TUG.
3) Contact Starwood or the BOD, to try to get some answers.
4) Bring some kind of legal action against the BOD and/or Starwood, when you can't get any kind of satisfactory answers from them.
5) Take another action - what?

Obviously, there is no "right" answer, and I sure hope our high MF's will prevent the need for a special assessment.   I'm just curious how you would feel about it, if it was your resort.


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## calgarygary (Jan 18, 2009)

jarta said:


> Scott & Laura,   ...   "In reply to Jarta;  Thank You for the link, it is helpful."
> 
> You are welcome.  I thought providing the links to the statutes was the most productive thing I could do since it seemed a lot of posters didn't know where to start and were misinformed about their right to information.
> 
> ...



Not sure who you have meant by a lot of posters but the Florida statutes were invaluable in getting Time No More to correct a problem that I had with a Vistana Village purchase 2 years ago.  Statutes not withstanding, my experience in getting Starwood to deal with that same error, was "talk to our legal counsel" at my expense.  Their modus operandi when dealing with major issues with their SVN customers is one of subterfuge and stalling while hiding behind their legal department.  So although I have long recognized that the right to information exists, Starwood employs tactics to block that same right without the requester going to great expense.  Give it a try Jarta, request a detailed income statement from your HOA or the homeowner's list and contact info. from Starwood.  Let us know how you do.


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## jarta (Jan 18, 2009)

Denise,  ...   "Do you:

1) Pay it with no question.
2) Pay it with no question, but criticize Starwood on TUG.
3) Contact Starwood or the BOD, to try to get some answers.
4) Bring some kind of legal action against the BOD and/or Starwood, when you can't get any kind of satisfactory answers from them.
5) Take another action - what?"

Here's my sequence:

If I had been at WKORV recently and it needed lots of work and deferred maintenance, I would probably *1*.

If I had been at WKORV and this state did not appear to me, I would look at the budget sent to me.  If it didn't look OK, I would do *3* (not call and ask for an explanation from some Starwood flunky who answers the phone but use the statutory procedure).  I would ask to have made available the declaration (if I didn't keep my copy), the reserve study and the last audited statement.

If I was refused the information (remember, I'm not entitled to an explanation of what it means), I would write a letter threatening legal action - and follow it up if nothing more happened.  So, *4* comes next.

I'm not sure that *5* would become necessary if a suit was filed.  But, hand-wringing is not my style.

Of course, if I got the information and looked at it, the answer to my questions would probably be there.  If they weren't I'd next ask for the preliminary budget detail and the year-end monthly financial statement.  The statement would tell me how the year went - but without audited figures.

What I would never do first is pay the bill with no question and then come on TUG and bellyache about not getting any information without trying to get it.  So, *2* is never an option.

And, I wouldn't say that the reason for the increased MF is Starwood's "captive" board members without looking at the information.

But, if I asked pursuant to the statute and wasn't give access to the information, I would disclose that on TUG as soon as Starwood told me that.

But, Denise, it's a hypothetical!  This year my total MF for 5 weeks went up by about $50 (with Harborside still to come).  So, I'm using *1*.  Anyone else can do whatever they want.  But, I can comment that they are merely venting and speculating without the information to back up their conclusion that Starwood and the POA board are wasting money.


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## DeniseM (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks for your response - very interesting!    

I thought you owned at WKORV and that's why I used it as an example -  I see now that you do not, so that wasn't such a good example.

For many of the regulars here, timesharing, and discussing it, and yes, griping about it, is a hobby.  We enjoy it all - good or bad.  Telling us we gripe too much, will only make us gripe more!   So I guess you will just have to decide if you want to hang out with us or not.  I hope you will - you are a great source of information.


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## jarta (Jan 18, 2009)

Denise,   ...   I owe much to the people at TUG.  They have saved me thousands of dollars in my quest for having fun in the sun.

There is a lot of terrific information posted here.  And the person with the most reliable knowledge and information is you.  Everyone owes you a debt of gratitude for moderating this board -especially me.  (And you and I know why.)


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 18, 2009)

I will be starting another thread on TUG - that addresses the issue/challenge I personally would like to see tackled - and I will be very blunt here - and that is...

*...get a Tugger on the HOA board of a SVO resort that is within SVN.*

I believe to this end is where we can truly impact many of the SVO issues discussed (and complained about) here on TUG. This person would hopefully disseminate the inner workings of the SVO/SVN resort and be impactful by conveying this information for reasonable and open discussion.

In order to achieved this - I believe the only way to do this is by opening and maintaining communication amoung Owners - and it seems that the only way to do this is to force this issue upon SVO/SVN/WKORV by political/legal methods.

I propose that SVO resort be WKORV - if someone has a better resort to try this at - please chime in.  At some point I thought WSJ may be accessible because of the lower number of resort VOIs and I had contact with about 50 owners, but because the way it is set-up - SVO indirectly controls a large set of units.  Add the difficulty of dealing with anything in the USVI that is out.

WKORV is well represented here on TUG, but not percentage-wise compared to the overall VOIs - and this is why we will need to somehow overcome the communication obstacles.

Maybe - because of FLA laws - access to a SVV resort HOA could be done - I am not sure as I know little about SVV resorts.

I do not want to get into battling SVO over financial records (yet) - just HOA representation at one resort.  I am not talking about something neferious {sp?} - completely opposite of this - I am looking at this to the benefit of the Owners which pay the MFs to keep the resort operating in a accountable and transparent manner.

anyway - I will start another thread.  If Tuggers that participate or lurk here want to get involved - and if enough get involved - perhaps we can get something done - if not, well... nothing ventured - nothing gained... at least we will learn from it (good or bad).


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## DeniseM (Jan 18, 2009)

David - I think that is a great idea and I nominate YOU to run for the WKORV BOD.  I have lots of ideas, but I will wait until you post your thread - we will make it a sticky, too.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 18, 2009)

jarta - you keep saying that your MFs have only gone up only $50 - and there is no reason for complaint/concern for you - got it.  As we own 2 WKV VOIs also - I am very happy how WKV has handled MFs to date.  If SVO MFs were across the board like WKV - there would be alot less bitching.  If WLM is Lagumanar (?) - then that is not representative of MF increases since it just open (lets see how it is a couple of years from now) - if WLM is something else - then please chime in.  HRA MFs still to come in - I doubt it will be low like WKV.  WKV is not representative of MF issues going on at other SVO VOIs - and especially WKORV. So...


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 18, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> David - I think that is a great idea and I nominate YOU to run for the WKORV BOD.  I have lots of ideas, but I will wait until you post your thread - we will make it a sticky, too.



Funny.  Unfortunately I would not be qualified in the eyes of the majority of Owners who may only get to read a couple of paragraphs that is alloted for vote - in this I am a realist.  I do not think being a PK Scientist will hack it in regards to qualifications.  I would like to see someone with prior HOA experience, knowledge of contracts and reading financial reports.  Too bad jarta doesn't own WKORV (and had motivation to try and make an impact).


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## DeniseM (Jan 18, 2009)

DavidnRobin said:


> Funny.  Unfortunately I would not be qualified in the eyes of the majority of Owners who may only get to read a couple of paragraphs that is alloted for vote - in this I am a realist.  I do not think being a PK Scientist will hack it in regards to qualifications.  I would like to see someone with prior HOA experience, knowledge of contracts and reading financial reports.  Too bad jarta doesn't own WKORV (and had motivation to try and make an impact).



You may be right.  I don't know what WKORV owner fits the bill.  What I was thinking was that along with your application you could send in a good number of personal letters of nomination from WKORV Tuggers.

jarta would be perfect - we just have to get him to buy at WKORV!


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## jarta (Jan 18, 2009)

Denise,   ...   Are you crazy?  I just spent 6 years on HOA boards.  My Sherman-esque statement is:  I am retired forever from association boards.

IMO, at my advanced stage of life, being on an association board is too time-consuming and too much responsibility.

Plus, why have a person who earlier today was accused of being a Starwood employee be elected?  For the specific purpose of being a thorn in Starwood's side?   

But, my advice is this.  Select a resort.  Find out when the next board election will be and how many seats are open.  Choose one seat where the incumbent is a Starwood officer or employee.  Look at the State statute and the procedures in the declaration for elections so that you know what to do and when.

Then, get an issue that's not too negative and have your facts in a row on that issue.  You can't get enough people to vote for you by merely being anti-Starwood.  You must be pro-something.  And, you must demonstrate you are knowledgable and reasonable.

BTW, earlier I said this thread was basically about a sense of loss of control.  And, it is now all about gaining control over what goes on.  That's neither good nor bad.  It just is what it is.   ...   eom


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## DeniseM (Jan 18, 2009)

jarta said:


> Denise,   ...   Are you crazy?



Just a little    Just pretend you don't notice...



> But, my advice is this.  Select a resort.  Find out when the next board election will be and how many seats are open.  Choose one seat where the incumbent is a Starwood officer or employee.  Look at the State statute and the procedures in the declaration for elections so that you know what to do and when.



At WKORV the current board accepts applications and then interviews and selects the candidates.  How can we find out if there is an alternate way of nominating someone?


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## botham (Jan 19, 2009)

I have just read through most of the posts, some of which seem to do with personal issues, rather than the original topic.

I would say the most worrying issue here is that Starwood appear to be able to charge what they like and owners have no rights of appeal. When I first bought at Vistana, I was worried about ongoing costs, bearing in mind that we are also affected by the £ / $ exchange rate, but was assured by Vistana, that the maintenance fees would only rise with inflation and that is all we would have to pay.

In 5 years time there could be another extra payment and we seem to be able to do nothing about it.


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## jarta (Jan 19, 2009)

Denise,   ...   "How can we find out if there is an alternate way of nominating someone?"

It's not easy.  In the end, you must win a proxy fight.  Expect frustrations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_fight

Here's some reading on the issue of homeowner proxy fights:

http://books.google.com/books?id=B8...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

http://www.chore.us/050815%20AZ%20-%20Homeowners'%20rights%20groups%20fight%20back%20against%20HOAs.htm

http://www.communityassociations.net/cacondoguru/archives/2006/11/recall_of_the_b.html

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-condos,0,5900797.storygallery  (Florida specific)

http://www.hawaiicondolaw.com/blog/  (Hawaii specific)   ...   eom


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## jhm40cu (Jan 19, 2009)

At this rate of MF increase, sooner or later annual MF will exceed my original purchase price from the DEVELOPER!


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 19, 2009)

jarta said:


> Denise,   ...   Are you crazy?  I just spent 6 years on HOA boards.  My Sherman-esque statement is:  I am retired forever from association boards.
> 
> IMO, at my advanced stage of life, being on an association board is too time-consuming and too much responsibility.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice, but you may be misreading my remarks (but perhaps not others).  I am a very blunt and straightforward person.

I am not looking for someone who is a thorn in SVO's side - or anti-SVO.  I am looking for someone who is qualified to open up the transparancy of the HOA board by creating improved communication between Owners.  Nothing neferious or below the belt - very simple - get a Tugger (w/ qualification) on a HOA board of a SVO SVN resort - so that person can in turn can use a large group of INFORMED and CONCERNED Owners (e.g. here on TUG) as a sounding board.  If this is perceived as being anti-SVO - I do not see it as so.  I see it as productive - and truly believe that it would be beneficial to all (except for those who have something to hide... if they exist).

How many ways can I say this?

PS - what is WLM?


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## Ken555 (Jan 19, 2009)

Perhaps there may be an easier way of accomplishing the goals being discussed. I know most, if not all, of the current BoD's at the HOAs are Starwood employees. Let's find the one or two that aren't and lobby them directly. Perhaps they may be more open to the notion of transparency and more owner involvement, etc.


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## Troopers (Jan 19, 2009)

Does anyone know how Starwood's MF compares to comparable Marriott (or other TS programs) properties?

I believe the MF for Marriott's Maui Ocean Club in 2008 was ~$1750 and is ~$2000 in 2009.  If Marriott's Maui Ocean Club and WKORV are comparable, the MF for WKORV are not entirely out of line (I guess both could be out of whack though).  The MFs of the two resort are +/-5%.  I don't own Marriott and have never stayed at Marriott's Maui TS so I may be comparing apples to oranges.


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## Captron (Jan 20, 2009)

To the goal of getting someone on A board... when I bought at PGA I was sent an invitation to apply from the manager. I did not and have since upgrades that unit (and got a retro) elsewhere, but, that may be a good place to start. If they were actively looking and it is such a small resort......

It may not be representative of the other resorts but it may be a start into a look at the inner workings and from there we could spread (like a virus) It may also be more likely to have success on the mainland for travel and (foreign) legislative reasons. (ie. easier with US law)

Anybody there and interested? We may have hope of a grass roots uprising!


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## SDKath (Jan 20, 2009)

Troopers said:


> Does anyone know how Starwood's MF compares to comparable Marriott (or other TS programs) properties?
> 
> I believe the MF for Marriott's Maui Ocean Club in 2008 was ~$1750 and is ~$2000 in 2009.  If Marriott's Maui Ocean Club and WKORV are comparable, the MF for WKORV are not entirely out of line (I guess both could be out of whack though).  The MFs of the two resort are +/-5%.  I don't own Marriott and have never stayed at Marriott's Maui TS so I may be comparing apples to oranges.



My Marriott is about $500 less each year for the equivalent resort (WMH and Shadow Ridge in Palm Springs).  My DVC points, equivalent to a 1 week vacation during platinum season is also about $600 less than Starwood.

I would be curious to see how WKORV compares to a comparable Maui Marriott week....

In any case, my Starwood MFs are by far the highest!

Katherine


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## Troopers (Jan 20, 2009)

SDKath said:


> My Marriott is about $500 less each year for the equivalent resort (WMH and Shadow Ridge in Palm Springs).  My DVC points, equivalent to a 1 week vacation during platinum season is also about $600 less than Starwood.
> 
> I would be curious to see how WKORV compares to a comparable Maui Marriott week....
> 
> ...



I would expect Starwood MF to be the highest among the major companies...it's the most luxurious IMHO.  Although $500 more for the equivalent Marriott seems high.  I'm not so sure your DVC is a fair comparison to Starwood.


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## steve1000 (Jan 20, 2009)

I own with Starwood at WMH. I also own with Marriott, Hyatt, Four Seasons, Royal Resorts, and Grand Pacific Resorts. They are all luxury properties and all have high MFs - which I knew when I purchased them - and this was acceptable to me because I wanted (and continue to want) a luxury vacation experience. All of my timeshares have delivered the luxury experience I was seeking so I have no complaints on that end.

The Starwood MFs are not the highest - they're second behind Four Seasons. My concern is not about the level of the Starwood MFs. It is that for each of the last 4 years the rate of increase in the Starwood MFs has been considerably higher than every one of the other properties. It is the consistency of the double-digit rate increases that concerns me. If Four Seasons, Hyatt, Marriott and the others can manage their luxury timeshare properties (and Four Seasons is considerably more luxurious than Starwood - while Hyatt is just as luxurious) without consistently increasing MFs by double digits each year - then why can't Starwood? Something is not right IMHO. This is why I would not buy another Starwood timeshare - even though I admittedly enjoy my annual SVO vacations. I simply don't believe that SVO management is as focused on cost containment as each of the other hotel based timeshare companies seem to be.


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## Troopers (Jan 20, 2009)

steve1000 said:


> I own with Starwood at WMH. I also own with Marriott, Hyatt, Four Seasons, Royal Resorts, and Grand Pacific Resorts. They are all luxury properties and all have high MFs - which I knew when I purchased them - and this was acceptable to me because I wanted (and continue to want) a luxury vacation experience. All of my timeshares have delivered the luxury experience I was seeking so I have no complaints on that end.
> 
> The Starwood MFs are not the highest - they're second behind Four Seasons. My concern is not about the level of the Starwood MFs. It is that for each of the last 4 years the rate of increase in the Starwood MFs has been considerably higher than every one of the other properties. It is the consistency of the double-digit rate increases that concerns me. If Four Seasons, Hyatt, Marriott and the others can manage their luxury timeshare properties (and Four Seasons is considerably more luxurious than Starwood - while Hyatt is just as luxurious) without consistently increasing MFs by double digits each year - then why can't Starwood? Something is not right IMHO. This is why I would not buy another Starwood timeshare - even though I admittedly enjoy my annual SVO vacations. I simply don't believe that SVO management is as focused on cost containment as each of the other hotel based timeshare companies seem to be.



Thanks.

I do not consider 4 Seasons in my statement since I do not think it as one of the major TS systems.  Yes, it is more lux than Starwood.

I'm trying to understand the MF increases and see how it compares to the other major TS system.  And thus, conclude if the increases are reasonable or not.  I think it's difficult to gauge the increases by looking into the numbers without full understanding of all expenses including property taxes, insurance, labor costs, etc.   In my earlier post, the MF increase and amounts of Marriott's Maui TS and Starwood's Maui TS are within +/-5%.  If these two properties are comparable and the numbers are accurate (I'm trying to verify), what does this tell you?

Can you provide more info about what and where you own within your TS portfolio?  There may be a logical explanation why Starwood's MF increases are considerably higher than your other TS.  Of course, it could be that Starwood management is fiscally irresponsible.  But I don't know and that's what I trying to figure out.


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## Henry M. (Jan 20, 2009)

Troopers said:


> In my earlier post, the MF increase and amounts of Marriott's Maui TS and Starwood's Maui TS are within +/-5%.  If these two properties are comparable and the numbers are accurate (I'm trying to verify), what does this tell you?



I would say the new tower of Marriott's Maui Ocean Club is comparable to Starwood's WKORV in terms of how nice the resorts are. They are close to each other and with similar amenities. It would be interesting to see a side-by-side history of the yearly maintenance fees for the same type of unit at both resorts, although I don't know if there is that much history for the Marriott towers. The first one opened after WKORV.


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## LisaRex (Jan 20, 2009)

To be fair, owners in Kauai have been complaining about skyrocketing MFs, too.  I know that some municipalities are taxing TSs at a disproportionate rate and that has caused a lot of anger. For some reason, TSs have earned a bad reputation, which puzzles me.  After all, when tourists stayed away from Hawaii in droves this year, the TSs occupancies have remained high, undoubtedly because we have paid for our lodging, so why not go?

Studies have shown that TS owners spending at local restaurants, etc. is nearly on par to what hotel guests spend.  We give people jobs, albeit not high paying ones (but neither do hotels). So I'm not sure why there's a lack of love for TSing.


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## DavidnRobin (Jan 20, 2009)

LisaRex said:


> To be fair, owners in Kauai have been complaining about skyrocketing MFs, too.  I know that some municipalities are taxing TSs at a disproportionate rate and that has caused a lot of anger. For some reason, TSs have earned a bad reputation, which puzzles me.  After all, when tourists stayed away from Hawaii in droves this year, the TSs occupancies have remained high, undoubtedly because we have paid for our lodging, so why not go?
> 
> Studies have shown that TS owners spending at local restaurants, etc. is nearly on par to what hotel guests spend.  We give people jobs, albeit not high paying ones (but neither do hotels). So I'm not sure why there's a lack of love for TSing.



Because they can tax without representation - the HI government is notoriously short-sighted.  The USVI Gov't is doing the same with a two-fold increase in property tax on TS, and a HUGH increase in energy costs.


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## Troopers (Jan 20, 2009)

emuyshondt said:


> I would say the new tower of Marriott's Maui Ocean Club is comparable to Starwood's WKORV in terms of how nice the resorts are. They are close to each other and with similar amenities. It would be interesting to see a side-by-side history of the yearly maintenance fees for the same type of unit at both resorts, although I don't know if there is that much history for the Marriott towers. The first one opened after WKORV.



I have copied the following 2009 MF from the Marriott forum:
_
Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina Towers 2-Bedroom
Operating Fee - 1,532.40

Replacement Reserve - 151.07

Tax Fee - 134.45

Total - 1817.92_

The 2009 MF for WKORV is $1,785.07 excluding $113.53 SVN and $5 ARDA ROC PAC contribution.

You can find the Marriott 2009 MF thread here.

Also interesting is a statement by Dave M, moderator of the Marriott forum:

_"For those 21 Marriott resorts for which we have MF data back to 2001, the average annual increase in fees has been 5.2%, from $701 in 2001 to $1,002 in 2008. The median increase was at an annual rate of 5.0%. I exclude special assessments, which are temporary and would otherwise distort the increase data."_

Any comments?


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## calgarygary (Jan 20, 2009)

Troopers said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I do not consider 4 Seasons in my statement since I do not think it as one of the major TS systems.  Yes, it is more lux than Starwood.
> 
> ...



Look within Starwood's own family to determine fiscal responsibility.  All logic would suggest that a fractional at the St. Regis would/should have a higher per week mf yet if the listing discussed in this thread is accurate, then mf there is only $1188/week.  I would further suggest that the St. Regis's standards would put to shame those at either a Sheraton or Westin property within SVN.  Would love to have a 24 hour butler service covered by my mf!

What's the difference?  Possibly a smaller ownership group that is able to maintain control of their HOA without blindly signing off control to Starwood.


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## Troopers (Jan 20, 2009)

calgarygary said:


> Look within Starwood's own family to determine fiscal responsibility.  All logic would suggest that a fractional at the St. Regis would/should have a higher per week mf yet if the listing discussed in this thread is accurate, then mf there is only $1188/week.  I would further suggest that the St. Regis's standards would put to shame those at either a Sheraton or Westin property within SVN.  Would love to have a 24 hour butler service covered by my mf!
> 
> What's the difference?  Possibly a smaller ownership group that is able to maintain control of their HOA without blindly signing off control to Starwood.



Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to figure it out nor answer your question.  Your reasoning does make sense but can you explain why Marriott's fractional ownership MF are significantly less than it's own TS next door (as stated by another TUGger in the same thread)?  Would you characterize Marriott's fiscal responsibility similar to Starwood's based on these facts?


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## jarta (Jan 20, 2009)

Troopers,   ...   My comment.  It seems that the 2 are pretty comparable in poshness, location, age and MF.  So if the MF facts are right, since Starwood is poorly managed, Marriott must be equally poorly managed.

But, it's not the cost of the MF alone.  "It's the economy, stupid!"  And, it's obviously causing pain for a lot of TUG posters.   ...   eom


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## calgarygary (Jan 20, 2009)

Troopers said:


> Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to figure it out nor answer your question.  Your reasoning does make sense but can you explain why Marriott's fractional ownership MF are significantly less than it's own TS next door (as stated by another TUGger in the same thread)?  Would you characterize Marriott's fiscal responsibility similar to Starwood's based on these facts?



If the mf of a fractional ownership at Ritz Carlton is similar to that of the St. Regis *and* if Marriott is experiencing the same issues with mf costs and increases as Starwood, I would attribute that to the inability of the companies to control a smaller, possibly more easily organized group.  The St. Regis and R.C. would require higher replacement costs, do have higher levels of service and do have more expensive amenities.  These would naturally suggest a higher mf.  Combine that with the fact that these are consistently smaller properties and can not possibly have the same productivity savings that can be experienced in a larger property and you are once again left wondering, how the mf in a larger, lower standard property is higher.  I think one of the key differences, could be in the contract.  I strongly doubt that owners in a fractional such as the St. Regis or Ritz are subsidizing the corporations by providing free units *without* compensation.  If SVN owners could get their HOA's compensated at least for costs associated with Starwood's rentals of their properties, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.


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## Troopers (Jan 21, 2009)

jarta said:


> Troopers,   ...   My comment.  It seems that the 2 are pretty comparable in poshness, location, age and MF.  So if the MF facts are right, since Starwood is poorly managed, Marriott must be equally poorly managed.
> 
> But, it's not the cost of the MF alone.  "It's the economy, stupid!"  And, it's obviously causing pain for a lot of TUG posters.   ...   eom



I fear that this may be the case.


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## Troopers (Jan 21, 2009)

calgarygary said:


> If the mf of a fractional ownership at Ritz Carlton is similar to that of the St. Regis *and* if Marriott is experiencing the same issues with mf costs and increases as Starwood, I would attribute that to the inability of the companies to control a smaller, possibly more easily organized group.  The St. Regis and R.C. would require higher replacement costs, do have higher levels of service and do have more expensive amenities.  These would naturally suggest a higher mf.  Combine that with the fact that these are consistently smaller properties and can not possibly have the same productivity savings that can be experienced in a larger property and you are once again left wondering, how the mf in a larger, lower standard property is higher.  I think one of the key differences, could be in the contract.  I strongly doubt that owners in a fractional such as the St. Regis or Ritz are subsidizing the corporations by providing free units *without* compensation.  If SVN owners could get their HOA's compensated at least for costs associated with Starwood's rentals of their properties, we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.




Sorry but you lost me...back up a sec.

The fact that St Regis fractional MF are less than Westin/Sheraton TS MF makes me sratch my head (for some of the reasons you stated).  Combine this with Marriott's fractional MF are less than its TS MF provides no insight about Starwood's fiscal responsibility.

Your above statement does not support that Starwood is fiscally irresponsible.  Your reasoning suggest that it's being mis-managed (although it may not be per some rule).  The two are separate issues.


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## calgarygary (Jan 21, 2009)

Troopers said:


> Sorry but you lost me...back up a sec.
> 
> The fact that St Regis fractional MF are less than Westin/Sheraton TS MF makes me sratch my head (for some of the reasons you stated).  Combine this with Marriott's fractional MF are less than its TS MF provides no insight about Starwood's fiscal responsibility.
> 
> Your above statement does not support that Starwood is fiscally irresponsible.  Your reasoning suggest that it's being mis-managed (although it may not be per some rule).  The two are separate issues.



Troopers, as you brought in the Marriott comparison as far as fractionals are concerned, I was suggesting that maybe a fractional ownership HOA is more owner driven.  The contract between the HOA and the management company in a fractional is likely written to create a "partnership" between the 2 groups rather than an autocracy.  Only access to the management contracts would determine the accuracy of my theory.  I do not necessarily believe that the Starwood properties are being fiscally irresponsible but that the management contracts are structured solely for the benefit of Starwood.   As owners travel less due to these economic times, more units become available for Starwood rentals either through conversion to Starpoints or requesting Starwood to rent the unit.  As Starwood has more and more units available to rent, the costs incurred in said rentals are 100% born by the HOA and us through our mf.  The variable costs associated with rentals are higher than use by members yet there is 0 income provided to the HOA.  This will invariably lead to higher than necessary mf increases and possibly more frequent capital expenditures.  There is only one solution, true HOA control  after all it is a home owners' association not a management company association.


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## Troopers (Jan 22, 2009)

jarta said:


> Troopers,   ...   My comment.  It seems that the 2 are pretty comparable in poshness, location, age and MF.  So if the MF facts are right, since Starwood is poorly managed, Marriott must be equally poorly managed.
> 
> But, it's not the cost of the MF alone.  "It's the economy, stupid!"  And, it's obviously causing pain for a lot of TUG posters.   ...   eom



Jarta, I'm backing down on...I'm not so sure about this.

The 10%+ increase in MF only applies to Starwood properties in Hawaii.  Ignoring the Hawaii properties, all other properties avg around 5% MF increase.  Guess what, this is also generally true for the Marriott properties.  Assuming all Starwood properties are equally managed, the 10%+ MF increases must be attributed to something particular about Hawaii, perhaps taxes.


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## jarta (Jan 22, 2009)

Troopers,   ...   If the current total MF are about the same, but Starwood has been increasing more rapidly over the past few years ........

maybe the total cost is appropriate and Starwood was too low before.  Maybe it's belatedly catching up.

Hawaii is a very expensive place.  Taxes are quite stiff for timeshares.  Travel costs are outrageous and rising faster than Starwood MF.  

St. John, Harborside and all the Hawaii resorts are on islands.  Islands are great places that have more beaches but, because everything has to be shipped in, it costs more money to build, maintain, live and vacation there.  Insurance has to cover floods, typhoons and hurricanes.  Just a fact of life that should be taken into account when purchasing!

My total increase for my 5 Starwood weeks (1EY; 1OY; 3 EOY) owned is about $50 this year.  If Harborside holds steady (it's predicted to go down) the increase will be $50 on over $5,500 paid in 2008.  That's less than a 1% increase.

Maybe I'll feel different next year.  This year I'm happy.  But, I'd be unhappy, too, if I got a 10% increase.  However, I'd take a look at the financials rather than blame it all on a captive Starwood association board whose loyalty is to Starwood and not fellow timeshare owners.

Enjoy your weeks.       ...   eom


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## LisaRex (Jan 23, 2009)

jarta said:


> Maybe I'll feel different next year.  This year I'm happy.  But, I'd be unhappy, too, if I got a 10% increase.  However, I'd take a look at the financials rather than blame it all on a captive Starwood association board whose loyalty is to Starwood and not fellow timeshare owners.



If I felt our HOA truly represented our interests, I wouldn't need to delve deeper into their financials; I would trust that my HOA was doing just that.  The fact that Starwood is clearly trying to keep "regular" Owners off the HOA boards by putting in roadblocks, such as pre-screening interviews, makes me suspicious.  Couple that with 10% increases in MFs with no explanation or contact information, and it makes me doubly suspicious.


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## spuppy (Jan 23, 2009)

If starwood truly had a reasonable explanation for the ridiculous increases in hawaii maintenance fees, it would be in their interest to bend over backwards and be fully transparency as to where the money is going.  But the mailer that I received is far from transparent.  I think the more likely explanation is that they are losing money in the hotel business due to lower nightly rates and are trying to make it up by raising rates on customers who are locked in and have no recourse.


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## calgarygary (Jan 23, 2009)

Troopers said:


> Jarta, I'm backing down on...I'm not so sure about this.
> 
> The 10%+ increase in MF only applies to Starwood properties in Hawaii.  Ignoring the Hawaii properties, all other properties avg around 5% MF increase.  Guess what, this is also generally true for the Marriott properties.  Assuming all Starwood properties are equally managed, the 10%+ MF increases must be attributed to something particular about Hawaii, perhaps taxes.



Just to clarify, if you back out the tax credit, the mf increase for Vistana Villages is closer to 9%.  There really is no justification for a 9% increase in Orlando.


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## Troopers (Jan 23, 2009)

calgarygary said:


> Just to clarify, if you back out the tax credit, the mf increase for Vistana Villages is closer to 9%.  There really is no justification for a 9% increase in Orlando.



FYI, Marriott's Cypress Harbour (2 bdrm) which is also in Orlando, the MF increase from 2008 to 2009 is 8.7%.  The MF consisting of operating and reserve fee (excluding property taxes) increased from $724.40 to $787.60.  Property taxes decreased from $113.23 to $94.04.  Starwood's 2009 MF (excluding property taxes and SVN membership) for SVV (Bella) is $790.15 compared to Marriott's 2009 MF (excluding property taxes) for Cypress Harbour is $787.60.  Can anyone compare the two properties?

Marriott's and Starwood's MF amount and increases are quite similar.  Interesting, huh?  I do not think it's a conspiracy.  I'm convincing myself that Starwood's MF increases are "reasonable".


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## Ken555 (Jan 23, 2009)

Could the Orlando increase be justified by risinig insurance costs?


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## calgarygary (Jan 23, 2009)

Ken555 said:


> Could the Orlando increase be justified by risinig insurance costs?



That is a good question and goes to the heart of the matter.  As long as we are provided very generalized operating statements without explantions, the owners have no clue as to what contributed to increases - just educated guesses.


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## steve1000 (Jan 23, 2009)

It's not just the SVO Hawaii properties where the MFs are increasing by double digits each year - I own at WMH in California and in each of the last 4 years the MFs have increased by double digits each year. In comparison, my Marriott MFs have averaged about 5.5% increases annually. As I noted in an earlier post, I own with several different timeshare companies and the increase in the SVO California MFs have consistently exceeded the increases in MFs in every one of the other systems. If, for example, I owned at Kierland and was only experiencing 5% annual increases in MFs I wouldn't mind a bit. I would consider it routine. I think Kierland owners should consider themselves fortunate - I suspect Kierland MFs will soon be increasing by double digits each year as well.


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## jarta (Jan 26, 2009)

*Harborside 2009 MF Fees Up about 10%*

I just called in to pay my 2009 Lagunamar MF (leaving for there on Saturday).  I asked about the 2009 MF at Harborside.

A decrease was estimated.  I was told the 2009 bills are going out later this week.  My 2008 MF payment for my 3-br at Harborside was $2,328.15.  The 2009 bill will be $2,551.72 - about a 10% increase.  This is a Phase II unit.  The details are supposed to be in the bill.  I don't know if there was a special assessment or all of the MF is for operating and reserve.  The guy who collects fees only had the total amounts.

I prepaid the MF today.   ...   eom


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## Negma (Jan 31, 2009)

So my Harborside MFs just came in and here are our MF results 2008 to 2009
Overall up 6.5%
Disn BWk 300pts- Up 5%
MH ey 2br-up 2.8%
WKN 2br ey- up 13.7%
Atlantis eoy 3br- up 12.7%
Kierland- eoy 1br 3.3
Vistana -2ey 2br 0% 
(but there is the special assesment not included)

We rented a week last year and vactioned between the family 6 weeks- a lot of fun. Total about 8K.


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## steve1000 (Feb 6, 2009)

After seeing Negma's post that the MFs at WMH increased very slightly I went back to look at my information and found that I mis-transcribed some numbers and was incorrect that my WMH MFs went up by a double digit rate for 2009. In fact, they only increased appx 3%. I was relieved to see - for the first time since I have been an owner - that my MFs did not increase by a double digit rate. I hope that going forward this type of an increase will be more the norm than the prior year increases. I have always enjoyed my stays at the SVO resorts - so I retract my rant (at least for now) about the aggressive rate of MF increases at WMH.


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## bruwery (Feb 6, 2009)

For my unsolicited two cents, see post #32 in this thread:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90160&page=2

Please note that my comments pertain only to WKORV-N.  I haven't done any comparison for other Starwood resorts.


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## starnight (Feb 18, 2009)

*2009 Mf*

MF's started @ $1685 in 2004
WKOFV (2bd OF Deluxe)

2009 Maintenance Fee Details

  Due Date 		   01/27/2009
  Prior Balance Due
View Prior Year Balance Detail 		  $ 0.00
  Current Year Charges
Maintenance Fee(s) 		  $ 2,459.73
Tax - If Applicable 		  $ 0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable 		  $ 34.38
Other* 		  $ 0.00
Interest 		  $ 0.00
Late Fees 		  $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** 		  $ 0.00
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges 		  $ 2,494.11
Less Payments*** 		  $ 0.00
Total Due 		  $ 2,494.11
Projected Fees for Next Year 		  $ 2,494.11 

Sheraton Mountain Vista (SMV) (2bd)
 MF's started @ $685.19 in 2003

Due Date  	 	    01/20/2009
  Prior Balance Due
View Prior Year Balance Detail 		  $ 0.00
  Current Year Charges
Maintenance Fee(s) 		  $ 1,048.23
Tax - If Applicable 		  $ 60.58
Membership Fee - If Applicable 		  $ 109.00
Other* 		  $ 0.00
Interest 		  $ 0.00
Late Fees 		  $ 25.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** 		  $ 0.00
Sub-Total
Current Year Charges 		  $ 1,242.81
Less Payments*** 		  $ 0.00
Total Due 		  $ 1,242.81
Projected Fees for Next Year 		  $ 1,217.81 

I couldn't resist posting to this blog.  I unfortunately bought two of these things and am having trouble understanding the large increases in MF in the short time I have owned them.  The SMV is projecting a 15% increase for 2010, and even though the WKORV is showing no increases for 2010, they always project slight increases & then up the fees by more than 10% when the statements are posted.  I am really having a hard time seeing any value in my purchase and really wish someone would have tackled me before I bought the WKORV. AND one more thing; we purchased our units with the expectation of being able to recoup our MF by renting if we decided not to use the unit one year;  I am a total idiot!  I have only been able to rent the WKOFD unit for $2000 (1 year); this is the 1700 sqft beach front unit.  How is everyone else getting the high $$ for rent?  We had both sides rented this year for $3000 & had to return the deposit because the renters got cold feet. Now I have a reservation that was made 1 year in advance to get floor preference that no one wants because it's May 30th. I'm starting to wonder if some individuals on this blog are less than truthful about the large rent $$ to compensate for their embarrassment in their timeshare purchase.


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## DavidnRobin (Feb 18, 2009)

The MF projection for 2010 is just the same as the 2009 MFs - it means nothing.

The MFs for WKORV Deluxe (large) w/o SVN fee	is as follows (year, amount, % increase from previous year):	
2005	$1,623.77	
2006	$1,813.16 (11.7%)
2007	$1,954.27 (7.8%)
2008	$2,203.79 (12.8%)
2009       $2,459.73 (11.6%)

per year average increase of 11.0% since 2006


I have rented the studio side of our WKORV OFD for $1700 (in 2007), $1850 (in 2008) and $1950 (in 2009).  One of those years the renters never showed up due to a family issue - I only knew about it because I checked up on their intended visit. They never asked for their $ back, and I would not have given it to them since it was a last minute cancelation.  The prevous year (2006) my folks stayed in the studio side - we got married while at WKORV that year.

I have also rented WKV for ~$900 and ~$1000 over MFs ($1550 and $1650)

I wrote a thread about renting SVO VOIs to assist others in getting full value (and protection and processes) - not sure if you have read it, but I would suggest reading it if you are attempting to rent. In one part there is a discussion about getting deposits and full payment - which others do differently based on their specific requirements.  I did have a renter who backed out (weirdly they sent money to my PayPal account before an agreement was in place - I returned a partial amount of their deposit).

A contract that I drafted - with the help of others - that is listed in the Rental Thread - deals with deposits and full payment.

PS - this is a BBS and has many contibutors of varying viewpoints that ask for nothing in return except for kindness, consideration, and respect - a blog is something that one person generates from their own singular viewpoint that is driven by their personal agenda - that others may (or may not) contribute to...


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## stevens397 (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm as upset as the rest of you about not only where the MF are but where they are going.  What will they be in 10 years.  When you divide them by 7, what will that come out to one night.

Funny thing is that part of the sales process involves telling the prospect about how hotel rates will increase with inflation (and they probably haven't increased anywhere near inflation) yet buyers would be fixing their costs.  Gee, they never mentioned maintenance fees.

Even more amazing, how are they going to sell these things in a few more years when MFs are $2000 at a resort?


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## DeniseM (Feb 18, 2009)

starnight said:


> we purchased our units with the expectation of being able to recoup our MF by renting if we decided not to use the unit one year;  I am a total idiot!  I have only been able to rent the WKOFD unit for $2000 (1 year); this is the 1700 sqft beach front unit.  How is everyone else getting the high $$ for rent?  We had both sides rented this year for $3000 & had to return the deposit because the renters got cold feet. Now I have a reservation that was made 1 year in advance to get floor preference that no one wants because it's May 30th. I'm starting to wonder if some individuals on this blog are less than truthful about the large rent $$ to compensate for their embarrassment in their timeshare purchase.




Welcome to TUG!  

I have rented my 2 bdm. for 2 years in a row for $3,500.  However, I would never return a deposit.  My terms state that the renter has to pay a nonrefundable $100 deposit to put the reservation in their name, and the balance is due in full, within 24 hours of receiving the confirmation from the resort.  No refunds, no cancellations - I make that very clear.

Now, in this economy, who knows about next year.  But I did just have someone who wanted 2 weeks in March and was willing to pay $3,500 per week - but it's too late to get a Resv.

I think if you advertise widely, and price your TS competitively, you can rent it.  I would check and see if you can get a prime summer week (min-June to Mid Aug.) and cancel the May reservation.

Besides the FREE Tug Marketplace, I personally use these cheap or free websites to post my Ads:

www.craigslist.org (free)

www.redweek.com
    * Membership $14.99 for 12 Months
    * Timeshare Rental Postings - $19.99/ea for 6 Months - $49.99/ea for 12 Months

www.myresortnetwork.com
    $19.95 posting fee ($24.95 for a float week ad)

Before you post your Ad, look at the competition on each website - many of the medium and higher priced rentals are unrealistic and will never rent.  If you are serious about renting, price your rental a few dollars lower than the lowest price for the same season/unit at your resort.

For lots more info. about renting, see the "How to rent your TS" article at the top of the Buying, Selling, Renting Board, and the article that David mentioned.

I am going to send you a pm with some more info.


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## DavidnRobin (Feb 18, 2009)

The MFs for a 2Bd Townhouse WSJ - Virgin Grand (Hillside) are as follows (Year, MF, % increase from prevous year):

2005 $1,052.87 
2006 $1,204.13 (14.4%)
2007 $1,322.98 (9.9%)
2008 $1,521.17 (15.0%)
2009 $2,465.82 (54.1%) - includes $865.17 special assessment (otherwise it would have been 5.2%)

an average increase of 23.3% per year since 2005 (11.1% if special assessment is not included)


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## DavidnRobin (Feb 18, 2009)

MFs for a 1Bd Premium (large) WKV w/o SVN fee are as follows (Year, MF w/tax, % increase from previous year):

2006 $577.53 
2007 $629.35 (9.0%)
2008 $674.41 (7.2%)
2009 $698.47 (3.6%)

an average increase of 6.6% per year since 2007


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## Ken555 (Feb 19, 2009)

WMH 2Bed EOY

2006: ~$550 (I don't have exact numbers for this year at the moment)
2007: $580.48; 5.25% increase (I don't believe this includes SVN fee)
2008: $649.36; 10.61% increase (no SVN fee)
2009: $669.28; 2.98% increase (no SVN fee)

All over the map with this resort. Happy that it's only a minor increase for this year, of course!


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