# How is Wyndham able to pull this off?



## ski_sierra (Jan 17, 2020)

Notice credit values for Steamboat. Blue season is only 4k credits less than Red. 






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Pretty much all of the nights in Blue season are vacant. It would not even make sense to stay using bonus time as you could find an exchange at nearby resorts at much more favorable rates.







So, is there any oversight around such shenanigans? Seems like Wyndham has figured out a nice way to screw the club members.


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## geist1223 (Jan 17, 2020)

Because they can. The WM BOD refuses to get involved. What would happen if Wyndham tendered a Resort to WM but the WM BOD refuses to accept it because the Credit values were too high?


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## JohnPaul (Jan 17, 2020)

All points are set when the unit comes into the program.  Easy solution - if you don't like the cost - don't book it.


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## Jan M. (Jan 17, 2020)

Consider yourself lucky that Worldmark has three seasons at Steamboat. For Wyndham owners there are only prime and high seasons; no value season weeks.


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## CO skier (Jan 17, 2020)

ski_sierra said:


> So, is there any oversight around such shenanigans? Seems like Wyndham has figured out a nice way to screw the club members.


It is not a Wyndham thing.  This dead horse issue has been flogged, drawn & quartered, keelhauled -- you name it -- since TrendWest days more than 15 years ago.  It was a hot-button issue for a relatively few owners who were out-of-touch with the majority of the ownership.  There is no shortage of discussion on the topic, if you want to research it.









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Look at the new Portland resort credit values.  There is no Blue Season.  26,000 credits is what a 2 bedroom (not 3 bedroom) Presidential goes for there.  These units are completely booked out to 13 months from now.  The owners staying in these units must not think they are getting screwed over.

I have stayed in the Steamboat 3 bedroom Presidential.  It is a two-story unit with a hot tub on the covered deck.  It was a splurge for a multi-unit family reunion; everyone was impressed.  We also stayed in the 4 bedroom Presidential Casita in Granby over a New Years.  That unit is like my personal, million dollar cabin.  Wish I could afford to stay there more often, but I am glad for the opportunity whenever I can.

The higher credit cost Red Season and White Season nights in the Steamboat 3 bedroom Presidential are mostly booked , so the relatively higher credit costs are not the issue.  Blue Season at Steamboat Springs is ten months away and "mud-season" at a ski resort .  Most of the October and November nights will eventually be booked by then; some likely using Inventory Special or Bonus Time.   Maintenance fees are paid on every unit night, whether occupied or not, so there is no burden on owners for unoccupied nights.  There are many units at much lower credit values at WorldMark Steamboat Springs and throughout WorldMark.  Lots of different options for lots of different owners.


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## ecwinch (Jan 18, 2020)

While I certainly would not agree with CO skier on the "out of touch" observation, there is some irony in this scenario. Some owners decry how Wyndham adding high-priced resorts has put pressure on their favorite resort. Then they decry resorts in desirable locations that generate a lot of credits that get consumed. Vs some place that like Klamath Falls that came into the system under Trendwest (1998), broke the 6k/8k/10k "ironclad RUV", and generates a lot of unused inventory.

BoD member Bob Morrison once posted on FB that when he looked at the data regarding utilization of high credit resorts and premium units, they actually trended better than a lot of the resorts without those features. Some owners dont mind paying more for more. I think the Club should support a wide variety of vacationing options, because what might be right for you, may not be right for some.


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## CO skier (Jan 18, 2020)

ecwinch said:


> While I certainly would not agree with CO skier on the "out of touch" observation,


In 2004, the minority was out-of-touch because they literally could not communicate their ideas to the membership at large.  Ten years later, any candidate or owner could communicate their ideas via email, free of charge, to all owners who were signed-up to receive election emails.  The majority of these emails communicated the negative messages from the previous 10 years.  Members continued to elect incumbents.

In 2016, despite a majority of election communications decrying the proposed Bylaws restatement, an uber-super majority of owners (82% of those who voted, 40-something % of all owners) voted to bring the WorldMark Bylaws into the 21st century.  That is something very few timeshares could achieve due to lack of participation in annual elections.


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## ski_sierra (Jan 22, 2020)

CO skier said:


> It is not a Wyndham thing.  This dead horse issue has been flogged, drawn & quartered, keelhauled -- you name it -- since TrendWest days more than 15 years ago.  It was a hot-button issue for a relatively few owners who were out-of-touch with the majority of the ownership.  There is no shortage of discussion on the topic, if you want to research it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just completed a stay in a 3 BR penthouse at Bear Lake. It is 18k a week in Red vs. 12k for a regular 3 BR. It was nice enough and definitely worthwhile. I hope the Presidentials are Steamboat are worthwhile too. One problem I ran into is I couldn't see any pictures of the penthouse unit on WM or Tripadvisor website, making it difficult to figure out if it was goign to be worth it.




> The higher credit cost Red Season and White Season nights in the Steamboat 3 bedroom Presidential are mostly booked , so the relatively higher credit costs are not the issue.  Blue Season at Steamboat Springs is ten months away and "mud-season" at a ski resort .  Most of the October and November nights will eventually be booked by then; some likely using Inventory Special or Bonus Time.



I'm a bit surprised that some people spend so many credits to go to Steamboat in the fall.
I'm glad there are people who pay the credits to stay in those units.



> Maintenance fees are paid on every unit night, whether occupied or not, so there is no burden on owners for unoccupied nights.  There are many units at much lower credit values at WorldMark Steamboat Springs and throughout WorldMark.  Lots of different options for lots of different owners.


who is paying MF on these unoccupied units? Wyndham?





JohnPaul said:


> All points are set when the unit comes into the program.  Easy solution - if you don't like the cost - don't book it.


Thanks, Captain Obvious!

My concern is the credit values for the blue season units are so high that they would go unoccupied. It's not clear to me who is paying for these unoccupied units.
26k in Blue season vs. 30k for Red Season means only 13% discount for blue season vs. ~40% for units that are coded 12k/10k/8k for Red/White/Blue. Wyndham got away with assigning such high values for blue season, which does not sound right.



ecwinch said:


> Some owners decry how Wyndham adding high-priced resorts has put pressure on their favorite resort. Then they decry resorts in desirable locations that generate a lot of credits that get consumed. Vs some place that like Klamath Falls that came into the system under Trendwest (1998), broke the 6k/8k/10k "ironclad RUV", and generates a lot of unused inventory.



Not sure why anyone would have a problem when high credit units get used up. My concern is the credit values for Blue season are so high that it doesn't make sense to use up your credits during those periods as you could find comparable accommodations cheaper than your MF. And if units are empty, members are paying for it somehow.



ecwinch said:


> BoD member Bob Morrison once posted on FB that when he looked at the data regarding utilization of high credit resorts and premium units, they actually trended better than a lot of the resorts without those features. Some owners dont mind paying more for more. I think the Club should support a wide variety of vacationing options, because what might be right for you, may not be right for some.


Agreed. After my recent stay, I'm convinced that it makes sense to book a penthouse unit for my family when possible as it was a lot nicer than the photos of vanilla units I saw on Tripadvisor.


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## geist1223 (Jan 22, 2020)

The MF's paid by all WM Members cover all WM Units occupied or unoccupied. Wyndham also pays MF's on all unsold WM Credits/Points in their name. That is part of being a pure Credit/Point System.


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## ski_sierra (Jan 23, 2020)

geist1223 said:


> The MF's paid by all WM Members cover all WM Units occupied or unoccupied. Wyndham also pays MF's on all unsold WM Credits/Points in their name. That is part of being a pure Credit/Point System.



that's what I thought. I am not quite sure if the impact of these high credit units with extremely high values even in blue season is a good thing for the club or not. It depends on the occupancy data and how many member credits expire vs. Wyndham owned credits.


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## ecwinch (Jan 25, 2020)

Given the usage period of a credit (3 years) and how many ways there are to extend the life of WM credits, I would say far more Wyndham credits expire than owner credits. Especially when you factor in how restricted Wyndham is in using the credits they generate.

I personally believe that the life span of a credit has far more impact on unit availability than most people realize. In other systems with shorter usage windows (ie. Club Wyndham) and more restricted borrowing/transfer policies, I tend to see better availability than in WM. The WM credit policy drives people to hoard credits, engage in speculative booking, and maximize cash options in lieu of credits. To the detriment of owners who do not want to become professional vacation planners and make the significant investment of time to work the system. Some people just want to go on vacations, not deal with that.


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## CO skier (Oct 11, 2021)

ski_sierra said:


> Notice credit values for Steamboat. Blue season is only 4k credits less than Red.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A year and a half later, post Covid, the Blue mud season dates are seeing some love from WorldMark owners.


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