# Is this really an acceptable practice on the TUG BBS??



## tedshare

On June 13, 2011, we posted a short but reasonably well crafted ad, for units we're trying to rent at Massanutten, in the "Last Minute Rentals" forum on this BBS, here.  

Yesterday, another TUG member  copied our ad, word-for-godforsaken-word, including the one mistake (use of an ampersand which doesn't display correctly on the BBS), and posted it on the same forum, here! The only thing this "fine fellow" saw fit to change was the price and contact information. 

This particularly grates because about 20 days ago another joker (I GUESS it wasn't the same character) did the same thing to us on the Washington, DC Craigslist, copying our much more elaborate ad which included pictures and many links, which had been running for months and started posting it on the DC list to rent his own Massanutten units.  Then, six days ago came the capper; our DC Craigslist ad started getting flagged and taken down every few hours throughout the day.   At first we assumed that the guy who stole our ad was doing the flagging, until we noticed that his ad seemed to be going up-and-down too.  Now our best guess is that this guy, after stealing our ad, pissed off some unfortunate respondent(s) so grievously that they've resolved to make a career out of flagging _his_ ad. And since the guycopied our ad so faithfully, the offended party is knocking down our ads too, 'cause they can't tell the difference!  

This isn't blanket flagging of all ads for the resort, like what's happening on the Orlando list; there are other ads for Massanutten units on the DC list which look nothing like ours that don't seem to be getting knocked down.

Imitation may be "the sincerest form of flattery", but with all due respect to Charles Caleb Colton, I've had all the flattering I can stand! :annoyed:


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## ronparise

small  consolation but consider...."Imitation Is The Best Form Of Flattery"--

In the short term I think you'll need to craft another, and much different ad to post on Craigs list. It wont be a complete waste of time as when they stop flagging your first ad, you can run one ad one day, and the other the next, keeping your offer in front of the craigs list audience every day.


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## akp

*Have you contacted either of them?*

I'd let each of them know you're aware they copied your ad, and ask them to remove the ad and create their own.

They may, they may not, but I'd definitely call them out on it and see if they have any conscience (belatedly).

Anita


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## am1

Are you using your own pictures?  Or have permission to use them from the rights holder?


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## tedshare

ronparise said:


> small  consolation but consider...."Imitation Is The Best Form Of Flattery"--
> 
> In the short term I think you'll need to craft another, and much different ad to post on Craigs list. It wont be a complete waste of time as when they stop flagging your first ad, you can run one ad one day, and the other the next, keeping your offer in front of the craigs list audience every day.



Thanks Ron.  

The flagging by itself isn't actually all bad.  When your ad is flagged and removed from Craigslist it's not subject to the 48 hour rule, so you can repost immediately with just a few clicks, putting it back at the top of the list.  The DC list is so active that ads sometime drop off of page 1 within a few hours of being posted, so that can be a benefit. 

The more bothersome thing is we've been using the same ad, with only minor changes, for years. If we abandon our longtime ad and this dweeb keeps using it, folks who recognize the ad will think he's us. But as it currently stands, with the dueling ads thing going, if someone sees and responds to that miserable tool's ad first, when they do see ours they're a lot less likely to call, thinking what's the use? "I've talked to _that jerk_ already!"

Kind of damned if we do and damned if we don't.


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## tedshare

am1 said:


> Are you using your own pictures?  Or have permission to use them from the rights holder?



Just pics from the the resort's website, and I don't think they're going to quibble with us over that.   Massanutten's maintenance fees are pretty low and we're filling units for 'em. They make a lot more money off the golf, water park, go-cart track, etc.,... that folks pay extra for while they're there, than they do directly off the unit owners through maintenance fees. Plus it provides grist for the sales department's "mill", which by far has the highest pressure pitch we've ever seen..... 

....and we do inform all our renters that they're under no obligation to take the tour and "for godsake don't buy anything if you do".


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## akp

*I wonder?*

He may be a jerk in the sense that he stole your ad, but I can't see why you'd assume from that that he's treating customers badly.  Maybe this stems from assuming that he was rude to a potential customer who flagged him?  

I'd entertain an entirely different hypothesis.  Perhaps he is flagging himself so that he can bump himself to the top of the list?

The real issue is that they'll call him instead of you, not that he'll drive business away by being a jerk.


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## am1

tedshare said:


> Just pics from the the resort's website, and I don't they're going to quibble with us over that.   Massanutten's maintenance fees are pretty low and we're filling units for 'em. They make a lot more money off the golf, water park, go-cart track, etc.,... that folks pay extra for while they're there, than they do directly off the unit owners through maintenance fees. Plus it provides grist for the sales department's "mill", which by far has the highest pressure pitch we've ever seen.....
> 
> ....and we do inform all our renters that they're under no obligation to take the tour and "for godsake don't buy anything if you do".



I do not think that is your choice to make.


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## learnalot

tedshare said:


> On June 13, 2011, we posted a short but reasonably well crafted ad, for units we're trying to rent at Massanutten, in the "Last Minute Rentals" forum on this BBS, here.
> 
> Yesterday, another TUG member  copied our ad, word-for-godforsaken-word, including the one mistake (use of an ampersand which doesn't display correctly on the BBS), and posted it on the same forum, here! The only thing this "fine fellow" saw fit to change was the price and contact information.
> 
> This particularly grates because about 20 days ago another joker (I GUESS it wasn't the same character) did the same thing to us on the Washington, DC Craigslist, copying our much more elaborate ad which included pictures and many links, which had been running for months and started posting it on the DC list to rent his own Massanutten units.  Then, six days ago came the capper; our DC Craigslist ad started getting flagged and taken down every few hours throughout the day.   At first we assumed that the guy who stole our ad was doing the flagging, until we noticed that his ad seemed to be going up-and-down too.  Now our best guess is that this guy, after stealing our ad, pissed off some unfortunate respondent(s) so grievously that they've resolved to make a career out of flagging _his_ ad. And since the guycopied our ad so faithfully, the offended party is knocking down our ads too, 'cause they can't tell the difference!
> 
> This isn't blanket flagging of all ads for the resort, like what's happening on the Orlando list; there are other ads for Massanutten units on the DC list which look nothing like ours that don't seem to be getting knocked down.
> 
> Imitation may be "the sincerest form of flattery", but with all due respect to Charles Caleb Colton, I've had all the flattering I can stand! :annoyed:



I agree this is pretty obnoxious behavior.


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## tedshare

Message deleted by moderator.


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## e.bram

Copyright your ad and indicate it on the ad other wise he has a right to copy it . Since you copied the pictures you are just as guilty as he(she) is.


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## Dave M

I concur. Copying someone else's ad is how many people compose their ads these days. It's a way of life on eBay, for example.  

Thus, if copyrighting isn't practical, the only legitimate and practical way to distinguish your ads from others is to change yours from time to time.

You can complain all you want, but that won't resolve your issue.


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## Makai Guy

e.bram said:


> Copyright your ad and indicate it on the ad other wise he has a right to copy it .



Nope.  Any work, on the net or otherwise, is now considered to be copyrighted by its creator once it takes tangible form.  It need not contain a copyright notice.

Reference: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf


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## Ridewithme38

Makai Guy said:


> Nope.  Any work, on the net or otherwise, is now considered to be copyrighted by its creator once it takes tangible form.  It need not contain a copyright notice.



Kinda dilutes the definition of the word if everything is automatically copyrighted...how can the court be expected to take any legal claims serious...when posts like mine are held under the same copyright laws as major works of literature

I mean with such a broad scope just quoting someones posts on a forum could be grounds for legal battles...it makes the whole concept of copyright laughable


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## ampaholic

Ridewithme38 said:


> Kinda dilutes the definition of the word if everything is automatically copyrighted...how can the court be expected to take any legal claims serious...when posts like mine are held under the same copyright laws as major works of literature
> 
> I mean with such a broad scope just quoting someones posts on a forum could be grounds for legal battles...it makes the whole concept of copyright laughable



U.S. law no longer requires the use of a copyright notice, although it is often beneficial. Prior law did, however, contain such a requirement, and the use of a notice is still relevant to the copyright status of older works. This change in the law was enacted in the 1976 Copyright Act (title 17, U. S. Code), which took effect January 1, 1978. The law was ultimately implemented by the 1988 Berne Convention Implementation Act, which amended the law to make the use of a copyright notice optional on copies of works published on and after March 1, 1989.

Really you can still use a copyright notice on your own work, title 17 to me just means that if you don't you haven't automatically given up your rights.


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## ronparise

e.bram said:


> Copyright your ad and indicate it on the ad other wise he has a right to copy it . Since you copied the pictures you are just as guilty as he(she) is.



Wrong again...no right is implied: no copyright notice is requires,


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## am1

Ridewithme38 said:


> Kinda dilutes the definition of the word if everything is automatically copyrighted...how can the court be expected to take any legal claims serious...when posts like mine are held under the same copyright laws as major works of literature
> 
> I mean with such a broad scope just quoting someones posts on a forum could be grounds for legal battles...it makes the whole concept of copyright laughable



I am sure in the terms you agreed to on this forum what you post here becomes public/property of the website and there is no copyright.


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## tedshare

akp said:


> He may be a jerk in the sense that he stole your ad, but I can't see why you'd assume from that that he's treating customers badly.  Maybe this stems from assuming that he was rude to a potential customer who flagged him?
> 
> I'd entertain an entirely different hypothesis.  Perhaps he is flagging himself so that he can bump himself to the top of the list?.....



Your hypothesis fails to account for the fact that our ads are being flagged too. If this guy's flagging his own ad, he wouldn't be accidentally flagging mine in the process. He _knows_ which ads are his, and the reason you suggest he's doing it to himself is the benefit of staying on top of the list.  Well if that's the case, why is he still extending that benefit to me? This has been going on for almost a week.  He can't be kidding himself that our ad's going to stay down. We disabused him (or whoever is more likely doing the flagging) of that notion on the first day.

Making your hypothesis fly requires a minimum of _two_ assumptions. The one that you stated, plus either he's deliberately flagging our ad too for a different unknown and apparently illogical reason, or he's flagging his own ad and _someone else_ is flagging my ad, for some unknown reason. Mine accounts for both his ads and our ads being flagged with only_ one_ assumption; that the jerk grievously pissed off someone who responded to the stolen ad, so we're both being tarred with the same brush!  I could certainly be wrong, but on that basis I believe my hypothesis to be the more sound of the two.  Ever hear of Occam's Razor?

BTW, I believe that jerks are likely to show their true colors in more than just a single instance, perhaps even frequently. I also imagine that he's not a mental giant either. If he was it wouldn't be difficult for him to craft his own ad, thereby avoiding the risk he'd miss the buyers that see our ad first.  That knife cuts both ways.  



akp said:


> The real issue is that they'll call him instead of you, not that he'll drive business away by being a jerk.



That's not what I'd intended to convey. My point was that folks faced with what appears a second ad, for the same item, from the same seller they'd just corresponded with, frequently won't respond to the second ad. As I stated above that can cut both ways. But I fail to see how the jerk who copied our ad can be the injured party in this case, so if it cuts in his favor even once, that's one time too many.   

I guess I just confused the issue by gratuitously using the pejorative "jerk"  to refer to that individual in that particular sentence. Mea culpa: I used that pejorative and others to identify the fellow simply because I enjoyed doing so.  

My apologies for the misunderstanding.



am1 said:


> I do not think that is your choice to make.


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## kaio

Dave M said:
			
		

> Copying someone else's ad is how many people compose their ads these days.



I remember 10 years ago, webmasters would constantly copy other site's source codes and only change the content if that after stealing the layout and design... ruthless... But.. in the end, truth comes out with time.  On a side note, *I think an Itrader rating for the LMR Bulletin Board would be quintissential for the LMR rentor's and rentee's ; an access point for easy to access reliable feedback.*


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## isisdave

Ask for what you want.

Contact the other guy, point out that he's copying your work without permissions, and suggest that he just make some significant revisions so that readers won't think it's the same ad and ignore you BOTH.


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## Bellatrix

tedshare said:


> Just pics from the the resort's website, and I don't think they're going to quibble with us over that.   .


I had a developer's lawyer send a cease and desist letter just for using their pictures!


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## cotraveller

Bellatrix said:


> I had a developer's lawyer send a cease and desist letter just for using their pictures!



I looked at the OP's ad.  It doesn't use pictures, it contains a link to the resort website that has the pictures.  Is that not acceptable and not in violation of any laws? It's like referring someone to a TUG article by providing a link to the article.


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## learnalot

cotraveller said:


> I looked at the OP's ad.  It doesn't use pictures, it contains a link to the resort website that has the pictures.  Is that not acceptable and not in violation of any laws? It's like referring someone to a TUG article by providing a link to the article.



Not exactly. It's more like just copying the entire text of an article and passing it off as your own work without acknowledging or citing the source.  Regardless whether it violates any laws, I just find it ethically questionable, not to mention surprising that someone would be so bold as to blatantly copy someone else's listing in such a relatively small community.


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## cotraveller

learnalot said:


> Not exactly. It's more like just copying the entire text of an article and passing it off as your own work without acknowledging or citing the source.  Regardless whether it violates any laws, I just find it ethically questionable, not to mention surprising that someone would be so bold as to blatantly copy someone else's listing in such a relatively small community.



Perhaps we are talking about two different things.  I was referring to the OP's comment about the pictures for his ad.  Those pictures are not copied, a link is provided to the resort web site that contains the pictures.  To me that is proper and valid.

If you are referring to the other person who copied his ad verbatim and posted it as a listing for his unit, I agree, that is wrong.


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## Ridewithme38

Perhaps we are talking about two different things.  I was referring to the OP's comment about the pictures for his ad.  Those pictures are not copied, a link is provided to the resort web site that contains the pictures.  To me that is proper and valid.

If you are referring to the other person who copied his ad verbatim and posted it as a listing for his unit, I agree, that is wrong


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## kaio

^:rofl: haha


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## Free2Roam

Ridewithme38 said:


> Perhaps we are talking about two different things.  I was referring to the OP's comment about the pictures for his ad.  Those pictures are not copied, a link is provided to the resort web site that contains the pictures.  To me that is proper and valid.
> 
> If you are referring to the other person who copied his ad verbatim and posted it as a listing for his unit, I agree, that is wrong



Reminds me of the kid who would continuously repeat someone... over and over and over and over... until he got punched.

Ride - were you that kid?


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## learnalot

cotraveller said:


> Perhaps we are talking about two different things.  I was referring to the OP's comment about the pictures for his ad.  Those pictures are not copied, a link is provided to the resort web site that contains the pictures.  To me that is proper and valid.
> 
> If you are referring to the other person who copied his ad verbatim and posted it as a listing for his unit, I agree, that is wrong.



You're right, I was talking about something else.  Thanks for the clarification.

Ride...:hysterical:


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## ace2000

My thoughts on this topic...

Perhaps we are talking about two different things.  I was referring to the OP's comment about the pictures for his ad.  Those pictures are not copied, a link is provided to the resort web site that contains the pictures.  To me that is proper and valid.

If you are referring to the other person who copied his ad verbatim and posted it as a listing for his unit, I agree, that is wrong


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## ampaholic

My thoughts on this topic ...

gnorw si taht ,eerga I ,tinu sih rof gnitsil a sa ti detsop dna mitabrev da sih deipoc ohw nosrep rehto eht ot gnirrefer era uoy fI


.dilav dna reporp si taht em oT .serutcip eht sniatnoc taht etis bew troser eht ot dedivorp si knil a ,deipoc ton era serutcip esohT .da sih rof serutcip eht tuoba tnemmoc s'PO eht ot gnirrefer saw I .sgniht tnereffid owt tuoba gniklat era ew spahreP

I always was a little backasswards :hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical:


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## T_R_Oglodyte

alicechen said:


> we can talk to each other with different idea.



The poster has been reported to the mods as a spammer. No need for anyone to make any added reports.

DeniseM (one of our tireless mods) is online right now and I expect that within a short time the poster is going to be bye-bye.


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