# Tesla Chargers near Sea Pines August 11-17, help!



## jmmoultn (Jun 21, 2019)

My wife and I are MVCI owners at Heritage, but are staying at Harbour Club in August. We are hoping to drive a Tesla down from Boston but found out neither Harbour Club nor Heritage has an EV charger -- but Grande Ocean does, though I guess they won't allow access to guests of other Marriott properties (now wishing we had purchased that resale there, instead of Ocean Pointe). Looks like not too many other Level 2 chargers around Sea Pines so we might have limited options. Any other TUGgers that might be there and willing to share/lend/sell one of their 2 car passes, or have found other options?  I see that Rockfish at Coligny has a charger so we may eat there, but may need a couple of 3-4 hour stretches for the week. Thanks!


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## pedro47 (Jun 21, 2019)

Marriott’s SurfWatch also, has chargers. I do not know if they have Tesla Chargers.


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## jme (Jun 21, 2019)

jmmoultn said:


> My wife and I are MVCI owners at Heritage, but are staying at Harbour Club in August. We are hoping to drive a Tesla down from Boston but found out neither Harbour Club nor Heritage has an EV charger -- but Grande Ocean does, though I guess they won't allow access to guests of other Marriott properties (now wishing we had purchased that resale there, instead of Ocean Pointe). Looks like not too many other Level 2 chargers around Sea Pines so we might have limited options. Any other TUGgers that might be there and willing to share/lend/sell one of their 2 car passes, or have found other options?  I see that Rockfish at Coligny has a charger so we may eat there, but may need a couple of 3-4 hour stretches for the week. Thanks!



Calling a concierge AT ANY MARRIOTT RESORT on Hilton Head Island should get an answer.
If they don't know, they would find out. That is their job.


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## jmmoultn (Jun 21, 2019)

Thanks, pedro47, on Surfwatch.  Grande Ocean and Harbour Club weren't too much help when I called. The Marriott hotel says they shuttle you to charging stations at Shelter Cove...


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## OldGuy (Jun 21, 2019)

Glad you came along.  I've been wondering about all-electric electric cars.

How long does it take to recharge?

I mean, for a gas car you pull into a gas station, with four on every corner except when you really, really need one, and fifteen minutes later, you're on your way.

But, if you're on the road with an all-electric electric car, even if you stumble and bumble your way to a charging station, how long does it take?


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## jmmoultn (Jun 21, 2019)

Tesla Superchargers are all along all most major highways and charge at about 300 mph, so with a Tesla with almost 300 miles of range, we can drive for 4-5 hours, and then recharge for 45 minutes or so while having something to eat, checking email, etc. Destination charges are slower but at many hotels, and charge more like 20-40 mph or a bit more, so great to use overnight.  I have had no problems charging around the East Coast but HHI doesn't seem to have too many charging options (no Tesla superchargers and limited number of destination chargers).   I'm sure we will figure it out, but takes a little planning (the Tesla GPS shows and plans for the Superchargers, which is nice).  Highly recommend EVs, we have loved it, but maybe not for everyone...


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## sparty (Jun 22, 2019)

Plugshare shows 4 Tesla destination chargers at Grand Ocean


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## jmmoultn (Jun 22, 2019)

Thanks sparty, that would be perfect if we were staying there. It appears they won't let MVCI owners at other properties or non-MGO guests on property to use them. We own at Heritage, in FL and in the Points program but will have no access to Grande Ocean.


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## pedro47 (Jun 22, 2019)

To the OP...Suggestion only, please called the MGR, at GO and explain your problem.
Tell him you  are a Marriott owner and staying at a Marriott resort on HHI that do not have a Telsa Charger.


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## BreakingAway (Jun 22, 2019)

jmmoultn said:


> Thanks sparty, that would be perfect if we were staying there. It appears they won't let MVCI owners at other properties or non-MGO guests on property to use them. We own at Heritage, in FL and in the Points program but will have no access to Grande Ocean.


When we were at Grande Ocean last week, there were two Teslas and a Chevy Volt parked at the charging station in the Laughing Gull garage. I did not check the other charging station. It could be the reason not to allow guests at other Marriotts to use the Chargers is that the parking spaces for the two stations at Grande Ocean are being used by Grande Ocean guests.


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## pedro47 (Jun 22, 2019)

To the OP: Please Google Tesla Chargers on HHI, SC. 
There are eight (8) Tesla Chargers on Hilton Head Island, SC.
Good luck and please enjoy your stay.


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

jmmoultn said:


> Tesla Superchargers are all along all most major highways and charge at about 300 mph, so with a Tesla with almost 300 miles of range, we can drive for 4-5 hours, and then recharge for 45 minutes or so while having something to eat, checking email, etc. Destination charges are slower but at many hotels, and charge more like 20-40 mph or a bit more, so great to use overnight.  I have had no problems charging around the East Coast but HHI doesn't seem to have too many charging options (no Tesla superchargers and limited number of destination chargers).   I'm sure we will figure it out, but takes a little planning (the Tesla GPS shows and plans for the Superchargers, which is nice).  Highly recommend EVs, we have loved it, but maybe not for everyone...



Thanks, a little better than I figured since my work involves charging batteries in golf carts, lead acid for many years and lithium ion for the first time this year.  The LIONs are quicker, with no maintenance.

But, still, not just a fill-up and go, an issue that stands in the way of widespread acceptance of all-electric vehicles, I suspect.


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## Passepartout (Jun 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> But, still, not just a fill-up and go, an issue that stands in the way of widespread acceptance of all-electric vehicles, I suspect.


You're a few years too late to this party. Electric cars are perfectly viable these days. Yes, it does take a little planning, but for the performance and freedom from emissions and oil changes and the like make punching in a few keystrokes to be directed to a vacant and usable charger is not a big deal.


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## VacationForever (Jun 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Thanks, a little better than I figured since my work involves charging batteries in golf carts, lead acid for many years and lithium ion for the first time this year.  The LIONs are quicker, with no maintenance.


We just bought a new golf cart that runs on lithium and we love that it is zero maintenance.  Our friends have to top up their lead acid batteries with water every weekend.  In addition, our cart is lighter and hence, faster than other lead acid carts when going up a slope.   We have 14-inch wheels on ours and it looks fabulous.


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

Probably an EZGO RXV Elite with a Samsung LION powerpack.  It's a more proven technology than Club Car's late and pathetic attempt to match it with an LG LION powerpack.

https://www.rmigolfcarts.com/products/2019-e-z-go-rxv-elite-2-2

I have maintained fleets of 60, 65 and 67 carts for 13 years now, both up north and in FL.

I have maintained RXV fleets since that model was introduced in 2008, and we got the first ones off the assembly line.  I have had a thread on a forum since 2009 documenting all the problems with it, and that thread became the go-to place for other operators (when, in fact, I started it trying to find someone else who could advise me).  We were the Guinea pigs, so I became the ex-spirt.

We have had 2008, 2012 and 2015 fleets, and had to replaced more than 50% of the batteries in the 2008 and 2012s.  Slightly better with the 2015s.  But, I still had to water 260 batteries once a month, clean terminals, and replace borken cables, etc.  Distilled water and a tank and pumping system I designed for the 2015s, which lessened our problems.  When our EZ Go tech saw my system, he said, "We need to be selling that."

We've had the 2018 Elite LIONs since last winter, and I have not had to touch them.  They make the cart 300+ pounds lighter, both good and bad, run for 54 holes between charges, and recharge in 2 hours.

Next Saturday we have an annual tournament with 240 golfers, 120 at 9:00 and 120 at 2:00.  For that tournament, the first carts come in, we restock the carts, tees and pencils, put the second group's bag on them, and off they go, almost as fast as I just posted that.  You can imagine what happened every year toward the end of the day, when we had to run rental gas carts out to replace the ones that died.

Not this year!!!!

I was in Florida when we got our new carts, and I asked the GM/PGA Pro when they would be arriving, and he said we already had them.  Then he said, "What will you do now?"  We had debated back and forth for over a year, and he went ahead with the bigger expense because the dealer sweetened the deal and made the monthly payment about the same.  When they can warrant the cart for a year more, they can spread the lease out, and lower the monthly.  & throw in two new beverage carts!


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## vice (Jun 22, 2019)

I was at Heritage Club then Sunset Pointe on HHI a few weeks ago and actually had good luck with just plugging in my standard portable 110 Tesla charger that came with the car into my Model 3 Tesla. Sure it only charges at 4 or 5 miles an hour on such a low voltage and amperage but if you are there a week it should be more than enough if you charge at night and maybe some during the day, it was for me. I had enough juice to drive to restaurants and activities every day and left HHI with a full charge after arriving near empty at the start of the week. At Heritage club there is an outlet by the recycling cans on the far right end of the parking lot and at Sunset Pointe there is an outlet to the left by the tennis courts when you first pull in the gate. The Heritage Club location I needed my 25ft extension cord to reach while parked, not necessary for Sunset Pointe.

I am sure that there will be some uninformed readers that will assume they are getting taken advantage of by an owner that decides to plug their car in to charge and not pay extra maintenance fees to cover this electricity cost. The amount of electricity for a full charge equates to around $5-$8 dollars depending on exact model and electricity rates at a given location. This would be similar to wanting the owner that likes to keep their unit at 68 degrees vs 74 degrees for the week pay an extra maintenance fee, as this would be a similar amount of power used.

Knowing what I know about Tuggers, I think some that never imagined themselves driving an electric car will look into it after they read this. Kind of like when you discovered that you can stay in great resorts with 2 or 3 bedrooms for what it used to cost to stay in a typical hotel room, if you do it right.  The cost to operate, maintain, and fuel is exponentially cheaper than gasoline vehicles. In fairness, Teslas can be more expensive to insure currently but this is expected to decrease over the next few years as the supply chain catches up. Teslas are also designed for 1 million miles (with a battery pack replacement or 2), not just 250K miles like your typical Toyota or 150K life expectancy of some other brands I won't name.

The lower operating costs have also encouraged me to take more trips and I have put nearly twice my typical annual mileage on the car, having had it over a year now. It is great for for long road trips to FL. Also, depending on model, Supercharging can currently go up to 500 mph, which drastically reduces charging stop time on my model 3. By the time you can get to the bathroom and back there is 150 miles charge added so you are ready to hit the road and get to the next Supercharger.

I expect to see lots more EVs in timeshare parking lots over the coming years.



jmmoultn said:


> My wife and I are MVCI owners at Heritage, but are staying at Harbour Club in August. We are hoping to drive a Tesla down from Boston but found out neither Harbour Club nor Heritage has an EV charger -- but Grande Ocean does, though I guess they won't allow access to guests of other Marriott properties (now wishing we had purchased that resale there, instead of Ocean Pointe). Looks like not too many other Level 2 chargers around Sea Pines so we might have limited options. Any other TUGgers that might be there and willing to share/lend/sell one of their 2 car passes, or have found other options?  I see that Rockfish at Coligny has a charger so we may eat there, but may need a couple of 3-4 hour stretches for the week. Thanks!





OldGuy said:


> Thanks, a little better than I figured since my work involves charging batteries in golf carts, lead acid for many years and lithium ion for the first time this year.  The LIONs are quicker, with no maintenance.
> 
> But, still, not just a fill-up and go, an issue that stands in the way of widespread acceptance of all-electric vehicles, I suspect.


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> You're a few years too late to this party. Electric cars are perfectly viable these days. Yes, it does take a little planning, but for the performance and freedom from emissions and oil changes and the like make punching in a few keystrokes to be directed to a vacant and usable charger is not a big deal.



OK, I'll bite.  But, I'm not much of a late-party person.

In our pathetic gas-guzzling, heavy-carbon-footprint, male-hormone-enhanced behemoth, we can get back and forth from our Florida and Northern place in 20 hours, with regular 15-minute-ish stops, wherever the gauge says it's time.

What would that trip be like in your Greenvicle?



& how big a camper could you tow?


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

vice said:


> It is great for for long road trips to FL. Also, depending on model, Supercharging can currently go up to 500 mph, which drastically reduces charging stop time on my model 3. By the time you can get to the bathroom and back there is 150 miles charge added so you are ready to hit the road and get to the next Supercharger.



OK, thanks, that's the info I was looking for, and it looks like it would fit our dog's schedule.

Now, how big a camper can you tow, cuz our dog will not stay in a motel?  

The last time I stopped at a motel with her, I had to practically carry her to the room, then she just paced and panted, hyperventilating, so I had loaded her back up and hit the road at 2:00 AM.  Our cats stay in the vehicle, in their travel cages.

We even have our favorite WalMarts now, each a little over half-way.



Also, we did not used to like "truck stops", but today's "travel centers" are a different deal.  We like the space, the normally-sufficient restrooms, the green areas for our dog, and normally-sufficient food.

It seems to me that the way travel centers are spaced, and plentiful, that they would be logical recharge locations, too.


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## Passepartout (Jun 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> OK, thanks, that's the info I was looking for, and it looks like it would fit our dog's schedule.
> 
> Now, how big a camper can you tow, cuz our dog will not stay in a motel?  We even have our favorite WalMarts, each a little over half-way.


Stay tuned. Tesla says they'll have a pickup truck out in the foreseeable future with some 500 miles of range and significant towing and carrying capacity. Judging by the popularity of pickups (F-150 has been the best selling vehicle in the USA for many years) I'm a little surprised that it's taken this long. 
So in your 'testosterone fueled' world, the future question instead of 'How many cubic inches does it have?', might be "How many kWh is the battery in that thing?'


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

Just so y'all don't get me wrong, and lump me in with the wrong crowd, or, as the wrong crowd see's it, the right crowd, I designed and have maintained a solar system on our boat dock for years.

I'm just saying, for a significantly larger segment of the market, for EVs to become commonplace, the rule rather than the exception, they've got a ways to go.

But, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I said the same thing about battery technology as recently as two years ago.

For really enlightening reading on this thriving new industry, onsite solar power, go to Samsung and take a look at that division.  You will also see that they have partnered with _Jina, _which will be light-years (intentional wording) ahead of US because of it.

http://www.samsungsdi.com/ess/index.html

&, guess what out-of-work coal miners in WV are being trained to do?  No, not drive Teslas.  

https://www.newsy.com/stories/west-virginia-company-trains-coal-miners-to-install-solar/

Just sayin"


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

When a nearby city announced their first solar substation not long ago, I was shocked that their Energy Storage System is 1100 lead acid batteries.  That will a nightmare, and the type of blunder that can turn people off to renewable energy.


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## Passepartout (Jun 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> When a nearby city announced their first solar substation not long ago, I was shocked that their Energy Storage System is 1100 lead acid batteries.  That will a nightmare, and the type of blunder that can turn people off to renewable energy.


For fixed locations where electrical storage 'density' is not an issue, Lead/acid is an efficient storage mode. Lead/acid batteries are known technology, are 100% recyclable, are relatively inexpensive, none of which can be said for Li-Ion or other metal batteries. I know they aren't 'sexy' new technology, but it works.


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> For fixed locations where electrical storage 'density' is not an issue, Lead/acid is an efficient storage mode. Lead/acid batteries are known technology, are 100% recyclable, are relatively inexpensive, none of which can be said for Li-Ion or other metal batteries. I know they aren't 'sexy' new technology, but it works.



Did you miss the golf cart post?

A substation out in the heat, 1100 batteries needing water every month, 2200 terminals needing cleaning, 2200 cables rotting out . . . not a good choice when there are ESS to better handle it.

Planning for the future using yesterday's tools.

But, like most things, tell will tell.


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## VacationForever (Jun 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Probably an EZGO RXV Elite with a Samsung LION powerpack.  It's a more proven technology than Club Car's late and pathetic attempt to match it with an LG LION powerpack.
> 
> https://www.rmigolfcarts.com/products/2019-e-z-go-rxv-elite-2-2


Yep, we got the 2019 EZGO RXV Freedom Elite.  Although it is not a fancy brand name like our friend's Garia and his has a 25mph max, we outdrive his cart uphill.  With our 14-inch wheels, we can get up to 23mph.  He tops up his lead acid batteries each week and we don't have any sort of maintenance on ours.


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## Passepartout (Jun 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Did you miss the golf cart post?
> 
> A substation station out in the heat, 1100 batteries needing water every month, 2200 terminals needing cleaning, 2200 cables rotting out . . . not a good choice when there are ESS to better handle it.
> 
> ...


I won't deny that for vehicular use, or for any application where storage density is paramount, Li-Ion is the better solution, but in a stationary solar power substation, where the batteries are tapped daily when the sun isn't shining, that lead/acid is the lower cost, and 100% recyclable and arguably safer alternative- at the cost of some maintenance.

I don't have a dog in the fight and really don't give a rip either way. This is simply my opinion. And whomever decided to use lead/acid batteries in the aforementioned substation shares it because that's what they used.


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## sparty (Jun 22, 2019)

jmmoultn said:


> Thanks sparty, that would be perfect if we were staying there. It appears they won't let MVCI owners at other properties or non-MGO guests on property to use them. We own at Heritage, in FL and in the Points program but will have no access to Grande Ocean.



Could you please keep us posted? Let us know how it goes?  Agree with the others, talk to the MGR of Grand Ocean like other posters have suggested.. Also might want to suggest you will pay for power used...


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

VacationForever said:


> Yep, we got the 2019 EZGO RXV Freedom Elite.  Although it is not a fancy brand name like our friend's Garia and his has a 25mph max, we outdrive his cart uphill.  With our 14-inch wheels, we can get up to 23mph.  He tops up his lead acid batteries each week and we don't have any sort of maintenance on ours.



Not that it matters, but in 13 years of managing carts, and at one course where there were 200 additional private carts.  I've never heard of anyone having to water their batteries every week.  Once a month maybe, and never for some . . . that we would have to tow back in.


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> A substation out in the heat, 1100 batteries needing water every month, 2200 terminals needing cleaning, 2200 cables rotting out . . . not a good choice when there are ESS to better handle it.
> 
> Planning for the future using yesterday's tools.
> 
> But, like most things, tell will tell.



It turns out that that project is experimental, to see if modified lead-acid batteries can work instead of lithium-ion, the batteries and project being partnered by a local battery manufacturer, using locally-available components:

*The use of lead-based batteries is a departure from the mainstream of energy storage.

“Everyone’s focused on lithium,” Campbell said. “In Missouri and the Midwest, we have access to lead. This is a way to demonstrate that this is a marketable product.”

https://energynews.us/2018/04/27/mi...-energy-storage-to-extend-life-of-substation/*


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## BreakingAway (Jun 22, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> OK, I'll bite.  But, I'm not much of a late-party person.
> 
> In our pathetic gas-guzzling, heavy-carbon-footprint, male-hormone-enhanced behemoth, we can get back and forth from our Florida and Northern place in 20 hours, with regular 15-minute-ish stops, wherever the gauge says it's time.
> 
> ...


Good afternoon, Old Guy. Greetings again. This brings back old memories from our talks years ago. It has been about 100 years since we had a similar discussion here on the TUG forums pages. The difference is that back then we were questioning how far we could travel in one of those auto mobiles when fillin’ stations were scarier than hen’s teeth. We talked about how your auto-mobile could not pull a wagon of hay up a hill whereas my horses could pull my wagon up any hill, and, if they got tired, all it took was a short stop to give them a little hay and they were headed back up that hill again. I could easily find a hitching post at the Harbor Club and you could not get into Grande Ocean to fill up with gasoline. You told me you then that there would be a day when you could fill up your auto-mobile just about anywhere and there would not be any horses pulling buggies and wagons. I just  smiled knowing you were just jerking my chain. (Respectfully. I just couldn’t help myself.)


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## OldGuy (Jun 22, 2019)

I stand by "_I'm just saying, for a significantly larger segment of the market, for EVs to become commonplace, the rule rather than the exception, they've got a ways to go."

There are currently 3.4 plug-in electric cars per 1000 people in the US. . . Sales of plug-in passenger cars achieved a 2.1% market share of new car sales in 2018._

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country

_There are 811 vehicles per 1000 people in the US._

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita


But, I've noticed that when you own and drive something, it seems like you see a lot more of them.


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## OldGuy (Jun 23, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Next Saturday we have an annual tournament with 240 golfers, 120 at 9:00 and 120 at 2:00.  For that tournament, the first carts come in, we restock the carts, tees and pencils, put the second group's bag on them, and off they go, almost as fast as I just posted that.  You can imagine what happened every year toward the end of the day, when we had to run rental gas carts out to replace the ones that died.



Then, the next day, next Sunday, we have a 10th Anniversary Special and Pre-4th of July celebration, $100 golf for $20.09, so the carts will be used all day two days in a row.

That will be a good test.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 23, 2019)

Very interesting discussion that has got me to thinking...we're considering buying a full-ownership vacation condo in Hilton Head in the next year or so. Each trip costs at least $70-75 or so in gas right now. With an EV, that cost would be much less. At about 250 miles each way, the trip should be well within the range of a Model 3 Tesla and other EVs. If we do eventually buy a condo, I would want to evaluate the economics of replacing one of our cars (both of which are getting up there in miles at 100K+ each) with an EV to use for the HHI "commute". The gas savings might help the economics considerably.

The biggest challenge might be the scarcity of Superchargers and other charging infrastructure in the Carolinas. Just looking at maps, it seems our region is lagging behind many other parts of the country in charging infrastructure. That's unfortunate.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Jun 23, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Very interesting discussion that has got me to thinking...we're considering buying a full-ownership vacation condo in Hilton Head in the next year or so. Each trip costs at least $70-75 or so in gas right now. With an EV, that cost would be much less. At about 250 miles each way, the trip should be well within the range of a Model 3 Tesla and other EVs. If we do eventually buy a condo, I would want to evaluate the economics of replacing one of our cars (both of which are getting up there in miles at 100K+ each) with an EV to use for the HHI "commute". The gas savings might help the economics considerably.
> 
> The biggest challenge might be the scarcity of Superchargers and other charging infrastructure in the Carolinas. Just looking at maps, it seems our region is lagging behind many other parts of the country in charging infrastructure. That's unfortunate.




A good reason to go with a Hybrid model instead.........



.


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## OldGuy (Jun 23, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Very interesting discussion that has got me to thinking...we're considering buying a full-ownership vacation condo in Hilton Head in the next year or so. Each trip costs at least $70-75 or so in gas right now. With an EV, that cost would be much less. At about 250 miles each way, the trip should be well within the range of a Model 3 Tesla and other EVs. If we do eventually buy a condo, I would want to evaluate the economics of replacing one of our cars (both of which are getting up there in miles at 100K+ each) with an EV to use for the HHI "commute". The gas savings might help the economics considerably.
> 
> The biggest challenge might be the scarcity of Superchargers and other charging infrastructure in the Carolinas. Just looking at maps, it seems our region is lagging behind many other parts of the country in charging infrastructure. That's unfortunate.



Sounds about like buying a travel trailer because your dog will not stay in a motel.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 23, 2019)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> A good reason to go with a Hybrid model instead.........



My understanding is the plug-in hybrids work best in stop-and-go city driving as opposed to highway/interstate use where their smaller batteries don't function as efficiently as the full EVs. So, they may not be the best choice for the drive to/from HHI.


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## vice (Jun 23, 2019)

JiminNC is the only Tugger I have met in person when we said hello to each other during the Heritage of Golf tournament on HHI a few years ago. Your travel distance to HHI would be very similar to mine and I can attest that the Model 3 Long Range would work perfectly for you. I have owned 2 Hybrids before the Tesla and they were great in their time, but all electric is the way to go now IMO. It makes no sense to lug around a gas motor. It did a few years ago before the Supercharger network was built. Between Charlotte and HHI you have the Columbia and Santee Supercharger, that is plenty of coverage (at the moment) along that route. Many more will pop up to satisfy demand as more Teslas hit the road.

JiminNC thanks for all of your great advice and observations on these boards about Marriott and other brands. It is a big part of the reason I am a happy and informed Marriott owner now. 



JIMinNC said:


> Very interesting discussion that has got me to thinking...we're considering buying a full-ownership vacation condo in Hilton Head in the next year or so. Each trip costs at least $70-75 or so in gas right now. With an EV, that cost would be much less. At about 250 miles each way, the trip should be well within the range of a Model 3 Tesla and other EVs. If we do eventually buy a condo, I would want to evaluate the economics of replacing one of our cars (both of which are getting up there in miles at 100K+ each) with an EV to use for the HHI "commute". The gas savings might help the economics considerably.
> 
> The biggest challenge might be the scarcity of Superchargers and other charging infrastructure in the Carolinas. Just looking at maps, it seems our region is lagging behind many other parts of the country in charging infrastructure. That's unfortunate.





TheTimeTraveler said:


> A good reason to go with a Hybrid model instead.........
> 
> 
> 
> .


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## Passepartout (Jun 23, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> Very interesting discussion that has got me to thinking...tbe biggest challenge might be the scarcity of Superchargers and other charging infrastructure in the Carolinas. Just looking at maps, it seems our region is lagging behind many other parts of the country in charging infrastructure. That's unfortunate.


We were accessing a similar dilemma. We have had a succession of Priuses, and they've been great, reliable, economical cars. But we wanted 'different'. Our second home condo is about 125 miles distant, and there is no Supercharger along that stretch of highway. Theoretically, a Tesla would make the distance (in some cases one would have to have the 'long range' battery- an expensive option)
So, for now anyway we 'settled' for a Honda Clarity Plugin hybrid. It charges overnight on household current, will go 50ish miles on electrons, and has a 1.5 liter gas engine for those highway trips. Around town, it's an EV. We simply don't turn on the IC engine. I touch the Hybrid button as we enter the highway, and it's 7 gallons of gas is good for 250ish miles. You can also charge the battery while driving on the IC engine, but it's kinda thirsty and only gets about 30mpg instead of about 45 when it's just providing motive power at 80 mph.
I guess it isn't as sexy as a pure EV, but that doesn't equal the feeling of driving past the Superchargers while the Tesla drivers are in the nearby restaurants while their fancy chariots load on enough electrons to get to the next Supercharger.
Overall, in 10 months and 11,000 miles the Honda has averaged 67 miles per gallon of gas. And it cost about half the price of a Model S Tesla.
Maybe as infrastructure builds out here in the sparcely populated intermountain West, we'll consider going pure EV, but not yet.

Jim


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## OldGuy (Jun 23, 2019)

Gosh, now I'm afraid to even say _Escalade_.

_Hummer _certainly not.


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## vice (Jun 23, 2019)

I haven't read anything in this thread that is bashing owning an ICE vehicle. I also own a Ram pickup necessary for work and have owned a large SUV for personal use in the past. I simply love the Tesla 3 for the performance, economics of ownership, and the autopilot driver assist that lets me arrive at my vacation destination without being mentally drained from fighting traffic on I-95. You better believe I will be one of the first to sign up for the Tesla Pickup when it is released.


OldGuy said:


> Gosh, now I'm afraid to even say _Escalade_.
> 
> _Hummer _certainly not.


----------



## Passepartout (Jun 23, 2019)

vice said:


> I haven't read anything in this thread that is bashing owning an ICE vehicle. I also own a Ram pickup necessary for work and have owned a large SUV for personal use in the past. I simply love the Tesla 3 for the performance, economics of ownership, and the autopilot driver assist that lets me arrive at my vacation destination without being mentally drained from fighting traffic on I-95. You better believe I will be one of the first to sign up for the *Tesla Pickup* when it is released.


Me too. I like my Tundra, but now, knowing the advantages of an EV, I'll definitely be checking out the Tesla P/U if it's numbers pencil out- and of course it turns out to be a quality vehicle like I suspect it will be,


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## OldGuy (Jun 23, 2019)

vice said:


> I haven't read anything in this thread that is bashing owning an ICE vehicle.





It just felt like I was at a Tesla convention.


----------



## jmmoultn (Jun 23, 2019)

So I tried the front desk but haven't tried the GM to see if they would let us use the GO chargers a couple times during our visit. Was hoping maybe a TUGger would be down there with one car and 2 parking passes, who might be able to share one. We could share a SeaPines gate pass ;-)


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## OldGuy (Jun 23, 2019)

I did not realize paint was an option:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/19/tech/tesla-black-paint/index.html


----------



## pedro47 (Jun 23, 2019)

To the OP.  This is my final suggestion. Asked the concierge at the Marriott’s Heritage Resort to contact their counterpart at GO or the resort Mgr at GO about this problem


----------



## jmmoultn (Jun 23, 2019)

Thanks, will give that a try. Kinda wished we had bought a resale GO instead of Ocean Pointe. They were pretty comparable!


----------



## illbdam (Jun 24, 2019)

jmmoultn said:


> My wife and I are MVCI owners at Heritage, but are staying at Harbour Club in August. We are hoping to drive a Tesla down from Boston but found out neither Harbour Club nor Heritage has an EV charger -- but Grande Ocean does, though I guess they won't allow access to guests of other Marriott properties (now wishing we had purchased that resale there, instead of Ocean Pointe). Looks like not too many other Level 2 chargers around Sea Pines so we might have limited options. Any other TUGgers that might be there and willing to share/lend/sell one of their 2 car passes, or have found other options?  I see that Rockfish at Coligny has a charger so we may eat there, but may need a couple of 3-4 hour stretches for the week. Thanks!




Suggestion:  Use the charger at Coligny and walk over to the Tiki Hut (on the beach behind Holiday Inn) for a fun afternoon of music, drinks, and food...all awhile your Tesla is charging.


----------



## jmmoultn (Jun 25, 2019)

We will probably need a couple of 4 hour or longer sessions (depending on the charge speed) over the course of the week, so that may be a long time at Coligny but it is one idea. Thanks!


----------



## illbdam (Jun 25, 2019)

jmmoultn said:


> We will probably need a couple of 4 hour or longer sessions (depending on the charge speed) over the course of the week, so that may be a long time at Coligny but it is one idea. Thanks!



4 hours at the Tiki Hut is about right.....They have 2 bands that play everyday... each band will play for 4 hours with a break. First one starts at 1 and the other starts around 5. Tiki Hut is across the street from Coligny behind the Holiday Inn on the beach. Great place to eat, drink and listen to beach music during the day.


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## OldGuy (Jun 25, 2019)

jmmoultn said:


> We will probably need a couple of 4 hour or longer sessions (depending on the charge speed) over the course of the week, so that may be a long time at Coligny but it is one idea. Thanks!



That's why I was asking what a 1200 mile drive to FL would be like.


----------



## Wahoo (Jun 25, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> That's why I was asking what a 1200 mile drive to FL would be like.



I purchased my Tesla about 2 years ago, and have put about 25,000 miles on it.  I've had to use a supercharger a grand total of 2 times in that 2 year period, just enough to provide a little extra range on long trips.  Total time spent charging away from home in 2 years is under 60 minutes.  How many total minutes do you think you've spent filling up with gas in the past 2 years?  That has been one of the biggest unexpected positives of this vehicle... I didn't realize previously how much time I spent sitting at a gas station filling up the tank.  Now when I have to fill up my wife's car I feel embarrassingly annoyed at the several minutes of wasted time!

Granted, I mostly use my Tesla for my work commute (35 miles each way), trips to the nearby ski resort/hiking (~50 miles each way), and occasionally for shorter road trips (~100-150 miles each way).  None of these trips require stops to charge.  I plug in when I get home at night, and by morning I'm fully charged and ready to go.

Longer road trips create some challenges, as you rightly point out.  That said, with the newer vehicles sporting 400+ mile batteries, and with the supercharger network rapidly expanding, road trips are getting easier and easier.  And then there's this big game changer: the new (V3) Tesla Superchargers charge at 250kw, at a rate of 1000 miles/hour (about 2x as fast as the current superchargers).  So, less than 30 minutes to fully charge a battery from 0 to ~400 miles of range.  These V3 chargers are not widespread yet, but are rolling out now.  Once fully rolled out, your 1200 mile drive to Florida would require 2 30 minute pit stops.

Sorry for sounding like a Tesla fan-boy here, but felt compelled to share my experience.


----------



## jmmoultn (Jun 25, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> That's why I was asking what a 1200 mile drive to FL would be like.



Captain, there are 2 types of chargers -- Tesla Superchargers are common along major highways, like 95, and can charge at 3-500 mph (making for short rest stops of 20-40 minutes every few hours, which works great).  No Superchargers in HHI though, so you need "Destination Chargers", which charge at slower rates (20-60 mph), and are made for leaving the car on them for longer periods (like overnight).


----------



## pedro47 (Jun 25, 2019)

Are there any Destination Chargers on Sea Pines Island?  There is a gas station on Sea Pines Island, they may know where one is located. Surly, there is someone  on Sea Pines Plantation that is driving a Tesla automobile IMHO.


----------



## OldGuy (Jun 25, 2019)

So, in summary, a Tesla is more convenient than a traditional vehicle.


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## JIMinNC (Jun 25, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> So, in summary, a Tesla is more convenient than a traditional vehicle.



It's funny you say that, because I had never looked at it that way myself. I've always been concerned about the fact there are fewer places to charge than there are to get gas. But Wahoo's post #50 was an "Ah Ha" moment for me. I had never considered that with a Tesla or other EV, for 95% of my driving, I would *always* have a "full tank" because every morning the car would be fully charged in the garage. I am notorious for being in a hurry/running late for something, going to my car, and seeing the low fuel warning light come on as I pull out of the garage. I then have to start thinking about how I can get where I'm going by way of a nearby gas station. With an EV, those days would be over. No more time wasted filling up! That *would* be convenient!

Now a long highway trip is another matter, and the lower density of charging options/Superchargers compared to gas stations would take some planning - so in that case, a traditional vehicle is probably still more convenient than an EV. But I will say this thread has really got me to thinking more about an EV for the future. If Tesla came out with a convertible version of the Model 3, it just might be too much to resist! Elon, are you listening?


----------



## Dean (Jun 25, 2019)

pedro47 said:


> Are there any Destination Chargers on Sea Pines Island?  There is a gas station on Sea Pines Island, they may know where one is located. Surly, there is someone  on Sea Pines Plantation that is driving a Tesla automobile IMHO.


Plugshare lists 7 on the island for Tesslas, no superchargers.  Most are destination but a couple are not.  There are notes on Plugshare for both Surfwatch and GO that they are for the guests staying there only.  Only the ones at Coligny and Shelter Cove look to be for public use.  Maybe go to Sonesta or Westin for a drink and dinner to get a couple hours of charging.  The other issue is the ones there may not be available when you need them.


----------



## Passepartout (Jun 25, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> It's funny you say that, because I had never looked at it that way myself. I've always been concerned about the fact there are fewer places to charge than there are to get gas. But Wahoo's post #50 was an "Ah Ha" moment for me. I had never considered that with a Tesla or other EV, for 95% of my driving, I would *always* have a "full tank" because every morning the car would be fully charged in the garage. I am notorious for being in a hurry/running late for something, going to my car, and seeing the low fuel warning light come on as I pull out of the garage. I then have to start thinking about how I can get where I'm going by way of a nearby gas station. With an EV, those days would be over. No more time wasted filling up! That *would* be convenient!


This is exactly the situation with our Honda. EV range is ~50 miles, which covers us day-to-day, and being a plug-in hybrid, there is gas in the tank for those longer road trips. Necessary out here where EV chargers are scarce.

*Now, my pet peeve, *Public EV chargers are following the lead of BetaMax/VHS- Apple/PC- GSM/CDMI phones. Incompatibility. You can't plug in your Tesla to a J1772 charger without an adapter, and I'm not sure there is an adapter to go from a Tesla charger to a J1772 equipped EV. And in case you wondered, EVERY other EV maker uses the J1772 connector. Tesla is alone with theirs. This means that non-Tesla EVs are excluded from the Supercharger (or Destination) charger network.

Jim

Edited to add. Amazon has a Tesla (cord) to J1772 (EV) adapter for ~$260. Will not work from Tesla SuperChargers. Seems high to me, but it is what it is.


----------



## OldGuy (Jun 25, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> *Now, my pet peeve, *Public EV chargers are following the lead of BetaMax/VHS- Apple/PC. Incompatibility. You can't plug in your Tesla to a J1772 charger without an adapter, and I'm not sure there is an adapter to go from a Tesla charger to a J1772 equipped EV. And in case you wondered, EVERY other EV maker uses the J1772 connector. Tesla is alone with theirs. This means that non-Tesla EVs are excluded from the Supercharger (or Destination) charger network.
> 
> Jim



Yet cat food cans are identical regardless of what brand it is.


----------



## jmmoultn (Jun 25, 2019)

The Tesla Supercharger network is great for trips, and the charging is not much more than a typical rest/lunch stop. Since the Tesla GPS maps it out for you, trips along an interstate don't take that much planning. HHI, otoh, may be more of a challenge...


----------



## JIMinNC (Jun 26, 2019)

jmmoultn said:


> The Tesla Supercharger network is great for trips, and the charging is not much more than a typical rest/lunch stop. Since the Tesla GPS maps it out for you, trips along an interstate don't take that much planning. HHI, otoh, may be more of a challenge...



What's the cost of a typical charge?


----------



## Wahoo (Jun 26, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> What's the cost of a typical charge?


Up until recently, most Teslas came with free lifetime supercharger use.  I have free unlimited supercharging for the life of the vehicle, so I just pull into the charging station, plug in, and it fills up the battery for free.  I believe for the Model 3 and for some newer purchases they've done away with the free lifetime charging, but the cost is still more economical than gasoline.  I think it's $0.13/kwh (though this is just my memory from a year or two ago, and it may vary by state?), so it would cost $13 to fully charge a big 100kwh battery.

For home charging, it obviously depends on your local electricity rate.  I used to spend ~$250/month on gas.  I now spend $0 on gas, but my electricity bill only went up about $60/month.  (I was going to say my driving habits haven't changed at all, but that's not entirely true... I still drive the same distances, but I definitely enjoy accelerating off the line more than I used to...  The 0-60 time for my standard model is somewhere around 4.5 seconds, but if you upgrade to the "Ludicrous" mode with 100kwh battery the 0-60 time is 2.4 seconds!)


----------



## Passepartout (Jun 26, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> What's the cost of a typical charge?


You can easily figure the cost of home charging by looking at your power bill. For instance ours is one of the lowest in the USA at about $.08 per kWh. Our Honda's battery is just under 20 kWh capacity, and just like your gas car, we charge it before it's empty- typically 1/2 depleted daily. So that's about 80 cents to a dollar a day. That 100 kWh Tesla long range battery would cost a maximum of almost $9.00 at our home rate. Our car is a hybrid, so it has a gas engine that on the highway gets 40+ mpg- saving the electrons for around town.- and cabin climate control and other electric use. It doesn't use the IC engine for anything but motive power (and charging if selected)

Don't forget those pesky road use taxes. Those who buy gasoline pay it at the pump. Different states have their own schemes to collect it. Our state adds $75 to annual registration fees on EVs.

Jim


----------



## OldGuy (Jun 26, 2019)

Anyone see *60 Minutes* last Sunday?

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/marsh...e-plant-life-into-fuel-60-minutes-2019-06-23/

A more likely scenario to reduce the use of fossil fuels would be fuel made from plant cellulose through a process that an 80-some-year-old guy has worked on independently for years, that has been verified by the scientific community, and now has tens of millions of dollars of backing, and actually has the first manufacturing plant running.

I say it is more likely because no one would have to change anything they're doing . . . they'd pull their regular cars into the same gas stations and get gas made our of plant cellulose instead of fossils.

Yeah, I know, it sound hokey, but it's real.

The battle would not be with consumer, it would be with existing industry.

Fuel is just one of the by-products of his invention.


----------



## OldGuy (Jun 29, 2019)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/28/business/tesla-tax-credit-loss/index.html


----------



## Passepartout (Jun 29, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/28/business/tesla-tax-credit-loss/index.html


Yep. That $7,500 tax credit was a big deciding factor on us buying the Honda Plug-In. Being a tax credit, not just a deduction, offset the tax on a whole lot of our 2018 taxes. A Tesla buyer who takes delivery after July 1 (Monday) will only get $1,850 tax credit. GM EV buyers have until Oct. 1 to get the full $7,500. Other brands- check with the dealers to see when they'll deliver the 200,000th unit and the incentive disappears.

Jim


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## JIMinNC (Jun 29, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> Yep. That $7,500 tax credit was a big deciding factor on us buying the Honda Plug-In. Being a tax credit, not just a deduction, offset the tax on a whole lot of our 2018 taxes. A Tesla buyer who takes delivery after July 1 (Monday) will only get $1,850 tax credit. GM EV buyers have until Oct. 1 to get the full $7,500. Other brands- check with the dealers to see when they'll deliver the 200,000th unit and the incentive disappears.
> 
> Jim



I think it's possible a higher tax credit will return some day if some future administration is more interested in encouraging green energy once again.


----------



## Passepartout (Jun 29, 2019)

JIMinNC said:


> I think it's possible a higher tax credit will return some day if some future administration is more interested in encouraging green energy once again.


I'd make you a small, unspecified side wager that the current $7,500, phasing out after 200,000 vehicle sales per company will be seen as incentive enough. But hey, if a similarly generous offer is made when we are ready to get a new EV in 6-8 years or so, I could be tempted. One thing's sure, it would be a complete U-turn from the energy policy of the current one.

Jim


----------



## OldGuy (Jul 27, 2019)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/25/success/tesla-model-s-electric-car-road-trip/index.html


----------



## Passepartout (Jul 27, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/25/success/tesla-model-s-electric-car-road-trip/index.html


Good report, but being in the longest range EV in the area with the most chargers, it was kinda ho-hum. It's a LOT more exciting in a EV with 150 miles of range when towns are 120 miles apart and high speed limits chew up those electrons at a frightening clip. Not a lot of flexibility for scenic or recreational side trips.

I will say that we just spent the last week in Yellowstone, and I saw a good number of Tesla's- mostly Model 3's. The Yellowstone/Teton Foundation has put EV chargers at many of the Park's main attractions/hotels for public, and their own vehicles' use. I never found one, but didn't need to as we were able to charge the Honda at our condo in Island Park (free), and by switching it to hybrid (gas) power it highway speeds and using EV mode in the park we ended up getting 78 mpg overall for the week.

Jim


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## OldGuy (Aug 2, 2019)

Kinda funny, there are _kids _on _Jeopardy_ this week.  (_Jeopardy_ Teen Tournament) They showed a picture of an automated car-manufacturing plant, and the question was, "It is named after this early 20th Century US inventor."

The _kids _guessed Edison, and Ford.



But, they knew Abbey Road (way before any of their times) was by The Beatles.


----------



## MikeM132 (Aug 4, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> When a nearby city announced their first solar substation not long ago, I was shocked that their Energy Storage System is 1100 lead acid batteries.  That will a nightmare, and the type of blunder that can turn people off to renewable energy.


The only downsides to lead acid battery storage are weight and cost over time. I am very much "into" this technology, and with the new battery technology right around the corner, it may make sense not to spend a ton on Lithium Ion batteries for storage. We are right on the brink of new batteries with much lower price and WAY higher power density, with many times the lifetime cycle capacity. 
Not to derail the charger thing....I have a Chevy Volt and am hoping to recharge even at 120V at Ocean Pointe, but apparently they have no interest in this. Grande Vista has a free level 2 charger, so adoption of this stuff seems all over the place.


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 4, 2019)

Dang, guess my golf course should not have _bought _those 65 carts with Samsung LI power packs.

I've been maintaining (260) lead acid batteries for 13 years.


----------



## StevenTing (Aug 4, 2019)

jmmoultn said:


> Thanks sparty, that would be perfect if we were staying there. It appears they won't let MVCI owners at other properties or non-MGO guests on property to use them. We own at Heritage, in FL and in the Points program but will have no access to Grande Ocean.





jmmoultn said:


> So I tried the front desk but haven't tried the GM to see if they would let us use the GO chargers a couple times during our visit. Was hoping maybe a TUGger would be down there with one car and 2 parking passes, who might be able to share one. We could share a SeaPines gate pass ;-)



I just realized that I can help.  I will be at Grande Ocean from 8/10-8/16.  If it's no extra charge for a 2nd parking pass, I will gladly help.  Send me a PM and I'll send you my phone number and we can chat and coordinate.


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## OldGuy (Aug 9, 2019)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/01/cars...ptimizely&utm_campaign=horizontalstripbiztest


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## Steve Fatula (Aug 9, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> Yep. That $7,500 tax credit was a big deciding factor on us buying the Honda Plug-In. Being a tax credit, not just a deduction, offset the tax on a whole lot of our 2018 taxes. A Tesla buyer who takes delivery after July 1 (Monday) will only get $1,850 tax credit. GM EV buyers have until Oct. 1 to get the full $7,500. Other brands- check with the dealers to see when they'll deliver the 200,000th unit and the incentive disappears.
> 
> Jim



Yep, same here, though I have a Chevy Volt it's just like your car, both EV and gas. Around home, we never ever exceed the range of ~60 miles electric, so, 100% electric which is Solar powered. Solar was to power the house, but then we added some capacity to also power car). Over the course of a year, we make more electricity than we use, including the Volt. As Jim mentions, there is never any worry, car plugs in (if we use it on a given day) after we get back home, and, in the morning, it's long ago done charging. If we forget to plug it in (it certainly has happened), it texts me to say please plug me in. 

The $7,500 tax credit was THE factor for us getting the car 2 years ago.

On our recent road trip to much of Utah, allowing for crosswinds getting there and back, and, allowing for highway speeds with mountains, we got around 42mpg on gas, which isn't too shabby for such a heavy car. Once we got to Zion Springhill, they had 6 chargers and the charge was free. So, all our driving for the week was "free". Then we went up to Park City, where, Summit Watch did not have any chargers, but, the places we hiked did, so, charged for free. As did the grocery store, so again, we paid nothing for all the time there. 

Definitely not sorry we bought the car, our favorite car ever. It can be fun even to blow away Gas cars from a stoplight. Ok, I didn't say that.


----------



## sparty (Aug 9, 2019)

Passepartout said:


> Yep. That $7,500 tax credit was a big deciding factor on us buying the Honda Plug-In. Being a tax credit, not just a deduction, offset the tax on a whole lot of our 2018 taxes. A Tesla buyer who takes delivery after July 1 (Monday) will only get $1,850 tax credit. GM EV buyers have until Oct. 1 to get the full $7,500. Other brands- check with the dealers to see when they'll deliver the 200,000th unit and the incentive disappears.
> 
> Jim



Huh? The full credit for GM ended April 1, 2019. It drops to $1,875 Oct 1.

2017 Volt owner, 2019 Bolt owner, E-Bike owner


----------



## pedro47 (Aug 10, 2019)

To the OP, were you able to locate the charger for your auto on Sea Pines Island.?


----------



## jmmoultn (Aug 12, 2019)

Yes, but decided to fly for different reasons.  But a good hearted TUG member offered to help! Will bring the Tesla next time and stay at GO!


----------



## OldGuy (Aug 12, 2019)

How about the Tesla that erupted in flames in Russia?  It was on auto-pilot and slammed into a stopped vehicle.


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## jmmoultn (Aug 12, 2019)

Didn’t hear about it. But I assume a few thousand internal combustion engines have gone up in flames recently. Tesla seems a pretty safe ride (and I own ICE too)


----------



## jmmoultn (Aug 12, 2019)

Maybe he wasn’t a Putin fan and they hacked into it...


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## OldGuy (Aug 12, 2019)

https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/...e-bursts-flames-crashes-parked-truck-64920937


----------



## JIMinNC (Aug 12, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> How about the Tesla that erupted in flames in Russia?  It was on auto-pilot and slammed into a stopped vehicle.





jmmoultn said:


> Didn’t hear about it. But I assume a few thousand internal combustion engines have gone up in flames recently. Tesla seems a pretty safe ride (and I own ICE too)





OldGuy said:


> https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/...e-bursts-flames-crashes-parked-truck-64920937



I think people are misusing the Tesla autopilots. They are meant to be driving aids, not a driverless car.

I'm a pilot, and we know that even in aircraft, you still have to monitor what an autopilot is doing. In the planes I fly, the autopilot can keep the wings levels and even navigate the airplane using electronic navigation aids (including GPS). In newer commercial jets, the autopilots can even land the plane automatically. In those planes, even if the autopilot is landing the plane, the crew is carefully monitoring and using their instruments to verify that the autopilot is flying the plane properly during critical, low-margin-of-error phases of flight like takeoff and landing.

I would equate using an "autopilot" in a car to using autopilot to land a plane. The safety margins are low almost all of the time in a car. In a car, you are almost always just feet away from other cars and even oncoming traffic, so even a small error can lead to disaster, just as it would during the landing phase in an airplane. When enroute at altitude in a plane, outside of a busy terminal area, a pilot doesn't have to monitor what the autopilot is doing quite as closely as during landing, because there are much higher safety margins and much less that can go wrong. But even then, you still have to be aware and understand your systems, as the autopilot problems with the 737-8Max have sadly shown.

Maybe Tesla made an error in calling their product "autopilot". Pilots' know you still have to watch over the autopilot in their plane, but many non-pilots think a pilot can take a nap when on autopilot. While some pilots have erred and done just that, most know that's not a safe way to operate (and some of those pilots that did are now former pilots).


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## jmmoultn (Aug 12, 2019)

Thanks JIMinNC, that’s how I use that functionality.


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## OldGuy (Sep 6, 2019)

Overheard the other day at the golf course, when one of the young guys of a 20 golfer group showed up a little late in his new Tesla, with dealer tags still on it, "Yeah, I had to lay over for an hour in )&$%$&)&$$%( to get a charge."


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## jmmoultn (Sep 6, 2019)

Maybe he hadn't yet installed his home yet. I would guess I have saved a few hundred hours of my life the last couple of years not holding a smelly gas nozzle and breathing noxious fumes!


----------



## dioxide45 (Sep 6, 2019)

jmmoultn said:


> Maybe he hadn't yet installed his home yet. I would guess I have saved a few hundred hours of my life the last couple of years not holding a smelly gas nozzle and breathing noxious fumes!


But a good portion of the electricity used to charge your car likely comes from burning coal...


----------



## Steve Fatula (Sep 7, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> But a good portion of the electricity used to charge your car likely comes from burning coal...



None of mine comes from burning coal. That's a pretty big assumption! Depends where you live too.

Even if it was, there is a formula for this and you can compare all you want on the internet. It's not up for guessing, or imagining. EVs simply, in almost all cases and cities (yes, where you live matters since every area sources their power differently), emit less per mile that gasoline cars. Counting your coal emissions to generate the electricity. The argument that electricity comes from coal burning while true, is basically an argument that gasoline car drivers like to use to make themselves feel better (by putting down EV owners).

Mine produces zero since mine is charged via solar (and my house is powered by the same solar, as are all my electric tools, hot water, etc.). I suppose there is some > 0 carbon footprint to make the panels. But it's obviously very minimal and a one time cost.

Note I am not one to do solar for purely environment reasons, not at all! It's because I save money over the lifetime of the system, a lot of money. And break even time is not very many years. The systems are *way* cheaper than even 3 years ago. At least here.


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## OldGuy (Sep 7, 2019)

Glad to hear y'all are Green.

I've got solar, but kinda like the smell of gas.


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## Fasttr (Sep 7, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Glad to hear y'all are Green.
> 
> I've got solar, but kinda like the smell of gas.


Agreed.  Gunna hafta pry my 3.8 liter naturally aspirated flat 6 internal combustion engine from my cold dead hands.  The sound at 7K+ rpm is intoxicating.


----------



## Steve Fatula (Sep 8, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> Agreed.  Gunna hafta pry my 3.8 liter naturally aspirated flat 6 internal combustion engine from my cold dead hands.  The sound at 7K+ rpm is intoxicating.



Porsche 911?


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## Fasttr (Sep 8, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> Porsche 911?


Yessir.  You must be a car guy.


----------



## Steve Fatula (Sep 8, 2019)

Fasttr said:


> Yessir.  You must be a car guy.



Gee, what a guess. 

Yes, you'll blow the doors off my electric Volt. Though, the Volt is far from bad, just nowhere near the Porsche. But not too many things are. The Ford GT supercar that my neighbor sold (car salesman) earlier this year should beat it. But it ought to for $600,000. 0-60 in 2.9 seconds, can't imagine.


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## kds4 (Sep 9, 2019)

OldGuy said:


> Glad to hear y'all are Green.
> 
> I've got solar, but kinda like the smell of gas.



Can just go EV and drive it to a Taco Bell. Everyone wins, except those close-by.


----------



## dioxide45 (Sep 11, 2019)

Steve Fatula said:


> None of mine comes from burning coal. That's a pretty big assumption! Depends where you live too.
> 
> Even if it was, there is a formula for this and you can compare all you want on the internet. It's not up for guessing, or imagining. EVs simply, in almost all cases and cities (yes, where you live matters since every area sources their power differently), emit less per mile that gasoline cars. Counting your coal emissions to generate the electricity. The argument that electricity comes from coal burning while true, is basically an argument that gasoline car drivers like to use to make themselves feel better (by putting down EV owners).
> 
> ...


To be fair, I was replying to someone who's profile indicated they lived in Boston. It may be possible that some of their energy comes from renewables or solar, but certainly not year round. I perhaps should have stated that their car is powered by natural gas since it seems that much of the energy produced in Massachusetts comes from natural gas.

While it is true that EV may emit less carbon per mile, it may not be quite as low as one thinks. It should also be pointed out that to truly compare gas vs EV that you need to look at the lifespan of the vehicle, from the extraction of raw materials, manufacturing, driving and finally the disposal. Mining lithium to make the batteries for an EV is carbon intensive using equipment powered by diesel fuel. Much of an EVs carbon footprint has been made even before it rolls off the assembly line.

While owning an EV somewhere that solar energy is plentiful and can be gathered most days of the year may make sense. In a lot of locations in the US, electric cars are still charged with energy produced from fossil fuels. If the proponents of EVs have it there way, everyone would have an EV and we would require exponential amounts of additional electricity to be produced. Solar energy and other renewables simply wouldn't be able to keep up.

While it may be cheap to install solar today, how much of that is because of subsidies that feed the industry along the way, from manufacturing of the product to home owners getting subsidies, grants, tax credits and loans to install them? I would suspect if it weren't for the subsidies, would there really be a break even point that is realistic? To truly look at the cost of EV vs gas, you can't just look at how much you may save each year. There is a larger hidden cost we don't see unless you dig deeper.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 12, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> While it may be cheap to install solar today, how much of that is because of subsidies that feed the industry along the way, from manufacturing of the product to home owners getting subsidies, grants, tax credits and loans to install them? I would suspect if it weren't for the subsidies, would there really be a break even point that is realistic? To truly look at the cost of EV vs gas, you can't just look at how much you may save each year. There is a larger hidden cost we don't see unless you dig deeper.



Much the same could be said about many other new technologies in their infancy:

Civilian aviation was directly subsidized by the government in the early 20th century, using the contracting out of mail routes to spur development of civilian aviation, as well as using the development programs for the Army and Navy to spur civil aircraft production.
Many of the other technologies we use today were initially developed for NASA or the Dept of Defense with government funding (a form of subsidy), and later commercialized
In the mid-1980s, I was involved in early pilots/experiments in online banking. Our biggest hurdle was the lack of network infrastructure and the lack of penetration of home computers. A consortium of a major electric utility, a telephone company, and a cable provider tried to create a network infrastructure in suburban Atlanta to provide the delivery system needed to delivery many of the online services we take for granted today, but it proved to be cost prohibitive. It wasn't until the US government opened up their "ARPANET" to commercialization in the 1990s that the online internet world we know today began to take off.
The technology behind the Google search engine was originally developed by two Stanford grad students using a National Science Foundation grant, after which they secured private funding and started Google.
GPS was originally developed for military use, and federal research money is still being used to expand and improve the satellite network, even though it has been commercialized for a couple decades.
With many of these innovations - just like clean energy - development costs and getting things to a certain point can only be done by someone without a short-term or even intermediate-term profit focus. Just because clean energy needs subsidy today to be truly cost competitive does not mean it always will. Much progress has already been made, and will continue to be made.


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## Steve Fatula (Sep 12, 2019)

One may choose to believe whatever they wish. Let's use Boston as an example. It's not hocus pocus, and the numbers are readily available. Using zip code 02111, my car, if charged solely from the grid in Boston, would emit 102 grams of CO2 per mile. A 29 mpg car would emit 381 grams of CO2 per mile. So, no, it's not more than I think. Double that to a 58 mpg car, and you'd still emit more, quite a bit more. Sorry, but that's the reality. But sure, if you live in the most fossil fuel city in the US (no idea what that is), it could be close. But I already knew my numbers, though to your point, likely I am an exception on that front. We have a lot of hydro power here.

And to look at your example a different way.... By me adding solar, that's LESS production needed for everyone else, and avoiding the building of those power plants, and think of all those emissions to build those plants. None of which is why I went solar of course. Which was strictly financial (well, 95%).

Yes, the production of my ev adds a* couple percent* of emissions to the *lifetime* totals of the vehicle. The emissions from fueling up a car, from gas stations, etc isn't exactly something to ignore either. We could go on and on, but the winner is very clear.

I get it, you may not like Evs, and there are definitely reasons not to. But emissions is not one of them. And for those of us with solar, it's pretty much zero after the one time cost of producing the panels. Note, it does not matter if I get sun 100% of the day every day all year, that is irrelevant. Over the course of the year, I send more to the grid that I get from it. So, I help my neighbors. 

There is no doubt there are subsidies going on in many states, and certainly at the federal level. As Jim points out, there are valid reasons for that. But that still has nothing to do with emissions.

I am not one to suggest that everyone must drive an EV. I know some are to your point.

Just some numbers to ponder, just find it interesting. I put around 800 miles a month on my car. That's about 200 kWh. Over the course of a year, my house + car uses approximately (since it varies every year of course) 10,000 kWh. So, again to your point, my car uses around 2,400 kWh/year, which is ~25% of my total electric usage. So, it's no small amount, you are correct. If one says let's make everyone get an EV, no way that can happen. To be fair, my electric use is very low in this part of the country. Most houses here, even much smaller houses, use way more than we do. Our house is pretty "green".


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## bazzap (Sep 12, 2019)

I would really welcome the chance to switch to an EV (with a practical range)
Currently in the UK though, my Audi is less than 1/3 the cost of the lowest priced Audi EV (~$100k)
Yes, I know there are cheaper options, but I like Audis.
So sadly for me and Perhaps many others we are quite some way off it being a viable option.


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## sparty (Sep 15, 2019)

Here's a great video that busts the myths about electric cars and the amount of relative C02 required to produce.  I've worked as an Engineer in the Consumer Electronics field  for over 30 years deploying battery technologies into literally tens of millions of products. I am a strong advocate for EV's and often talk with the Marriott Resorts GM's about deploying EV charging at the resorts. 

Anyway - here's the video with citations and it's in partnership with  organizations I trust.


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