# new restrictions when buying resale



## Zac495 (Aug 25, 2006)

A friend of mine just bought Aruba from developer even if I told her not to (I knew she was going there) . They told her that there is a NEW clause in the contract starting now that will tag all new owners. They can't trade with II or anything at all. I kept insisting this was a lie. She said she talked with a broker who said it was true. ???????????????????


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## camachinist (Aug 25, 2006)

I'm sure the governing documents will tell the truth, which is undoubtably "different" than what your friend heard. Next time have them put that statement in writing, sign it, and then you can forward it to MVCI corporate for confirmation. I have a feeling the story will change 

Pat


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## PerryM (Aug 26, 2006)

*No spin zone*

The nightmare that all timeshare developer salesreps fear is the informed consumer.  This must cause horrible nightmares to these folks.  The biggest enemy the salesreps face is the Internet – I’m surprised that as you enter the sales gallery there isn’t one of those international symbol signs that would say “Internet free zone” (Picture of Google with a diagonal slash thru it).

The life of a timeshare salesrep is filled with giving the same boring sales pitch 3 or more times a day, 5 times a week, month after month.  To spice things up they must quiz each other like “My brother-in-law bought a $19.95 timeshare from eBay last week – you got any that cheap for sale here?”

Of course, truth can’t be used to reply, so spin (PC word for lies) must be used to frighten the consumer.  The top salesreps don’t need to spin – they are masters at persuading folks to do things that are unwise, but they feel very good about doing them.


These are all just average “spin” and not that inventive.  The best one I heard was from a salesrep, I think it was a Marriott rep, last year and it went like this:

Me: “If we are interested in this property, we will just buy resale”

Salesrep: “Bad idea, no title insurance company checks into outstanding loans and you could start to get phone calls from collection agencies demanding you make the loan payments”.

Now that I thought was first class “spin” and I took notes.


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## Beverley (Aug 26, 2006)

WOW, Perry, now that was a good one!

If there was even a morsel of truth to what your friend was told in Aruba, how would the sales reps here explain all the resales they now sell when an owner wants one or won't buy developer.  

The rep at our presentation at Surf Watch two weeks ago told us that now Marriott will include the sales made from resales in the sales reps' sales volume needed to meet bonus requirements.  So now, many reps are willing to talk about a resale if they don't think they can sell the developer week.  Of course the resale is through Marriott at Marriott prices and also gives point options.

Hmmm ..


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## short (Aug 26, 2006)

*Read her docs.*



			
				Zac495 said:
			
		

> A friend of mine just bought Aruba from developer even if I told her t to (I knew she was going there) . They told her that there is a NEW clause in the contract starting now that will tag all new owners. They can't trade with II or anything at all. I kept insisting this was a lie. She said she talked with a broker who said it was true. ???????????????????



Since she is a friend, ask to read all the documents she gets when she closes.  I think its unlikely but one never knows.

Would Marriott lose developer sales propects because the prospect's new purchase loses a lot value when the want to sell because it is restricted.

What would the sales reps position have been if all of a sudden the prospect said I don't want to buy this developer week because it will be less valuable as a resale.

Short


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## Werner Weiss (Aug 26, 2006)

Resale buyers are treated exactly the same buyers who bought from Marriott.  The only exception is that resale buyers (who did not buy through Marriott) cannot convert their usage to Marriott Rewards points.

If a Marriott salesperson in Aruba is saying that resale customers now can't do exchanges through Interval International, then that salesperson is telling a lie.  Either the salesperson knows it's a lie, or the salesperson is poorly trained.  In either case, I expect better from Marriott.

Interval International does not care how Marriott owners acquired their weeks.


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## cluemeister (Aug 26, 2006)

*Half truth?*

Is it possible the sales rep was talking about new trade rules with Marriott phasing out their relationship with II?  Could Marriott be setting up special rules that would make it harder for resales to trade under the new Marriott exchange system?

Not likely, I understand, but just a thought.


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## Zac495 (Aug 27, 2006)

cluemeister said:
			
		

> Is it possible the sales rep was talking about new trade rules with Marriott phasing out their relationship with II?  Could Marriott be setting up special rules that would make it harder for resales to trade under the new Marriott exchange system?
> 
> Not likely, I understand, but just a thought.



I think that might be it. This girl is convinced that (because her realtor father in law checked) that Marriott will be red flagging all resale purchases. No longer will resale people  be able to trade with II. The only thing they can do is use their week. She is so positive.


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## 2hokies (Aug 27, 2006)

We heard this from someone in the airport on our way home from Aruba two days ago (they had just purchased at the Surf Club).  We told them no way, but we hadn't read this thread yet.  If anyone finds something in writing, please share!!


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## littlestar (Aug 27, 2006)

If this were true, wouldn't people stay far away from Marriott (developer or resale)? If them or their heir's circumstances changed and they needed to sell, they wouldn't be able to give away a Marriott with those kind of rules. I just can't see Marriott doing something that dumb.


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## camachinist (Aug 27, 2006)

Zac495 said:
			
		

> I think that might be it. This girl is convinced that (because her realtor father in law checked) that Marriott will be red flagging all resale purchases. No longer will resale people  be able to trade with II. The only thing they can do is use their week. She is so positive.


Though nothing about Marriott suprises me lately, there is a silver lining, if the independents are getting similar data points on this subject. Time to spend some money on advertising 

As a Marriott owner who has never paid an II membership fee, I do quite well without them, especially when I see their teasers for "bargain" memberships.

Pat


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## Dave M (Aug 27, 2006)

I have asked some people who should know and have been assured that there is absolutely no truth to the rumor discussed in this thread. In fact, I was laughed at!

Think about it. Would you buy such a week from Marriott if you were, in effect, told that your week would have little or no resale value because of exchange limitations? Of course not! And solid resale value is one benefit that Marriott offers that easily outstrips most of its competition.

Also, there is no available info related to the forthcoming Marriott internal exchange program that would limit such exchanges. There are no details for that program because Marriott is still in the very early development stage with implementation possibly as far away as three to five years. About all we know so far is that Marriott eventually plans to handle all Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges internally. It will leave the Marriott-to-nonMarriott exchanges to II to handle, just as it does today. 

Repeating what was suggested earlier, if anyone hears of this from a salesperson, ask for a copy of the written restriction (it will be in the legal documents for the resort) or check the CC&Rs given to you on the day of purchase. If you find such a provision, please share it with us.

I'm betting no one will find such a restriction.


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## toni3063 (Aug 27, 2006)

2hokies said:
			
		

> We heard this from someone in the airport on our way home from Aruba two days ago (they had just purchased at the Surf Club).  We told them no way, but we hadn't read this thread yet.  If anyone finds something in writing, please share!!



Maybe the person that told you this and the OP's friend are one and the same.  Huge coincidence, yes, however, both were in Aruba in the same time frame.  It is a small world after all.


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## floyddl (Aug 27, 2006)

I don't believe that Marriott could prevent an owner from depositing their week with II as long as the person has an II membership and II trades inventory at that resort.  Marriott could conceivably prevent the resales from getting the discounted Marriott exchange fee but other than that I see no way to stop II from taking a week for trade.


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## 2hokies (Aug 27, 2006)

toni3063 said:
			
		

> Maybe the person that told you this and the OP's friend are one and the same.  Huge coincidence, yes, however, both were in Aruba in the same time frame.  It is a small world after all.


It is a small world.  These people live less than 3 miles from us!  I'll probably run into them in the grocery store one of these days!


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## Zac495 (Aug 29, 2006)

2hokies said:
			
		

> It is a small world.  These people live less than 3 miles from us!  I'll probably run into them in the grocery store one of these days!




I live in PA, so I guess it was someone else - not my friend. I printed all of this from TUG. She is beginning to believe it - but still thinks the points might be worth the extra 11,000 or so. She says she's young and the points will get her to all of the islands. Le sigh. I told her to join TUG. What else can I do?

She was so SURE that I'm glad I brought it here. Clearly, it's something new that's being talked about during presentations. She kept repeating over and over -that resales will be RED FLAGGED.


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## PerryM (Aug 29, 2006)

*I'd pay money (and I'm frugal)*

Ellen,

I wish it were true that resale Marriotts could not trade in II – I’d be glad to jump on that class action lawsuit.  Who couldn't use some Marriott Reward Points or whatever?

If your friend is starting to get the idea that the salesrep can’t tell the difference between reality and salesrep make believe then you might suggest she exercise her right to rescind the deal.  But before that, check to see if resales are available and at what discount.

You might also suggest that if she still believes in the sales rep that she invite him to join this chat room so we could have a friendly conversation with someone who actually believes in this stuff.  I know I’d even pay money if we could chat with this guy.

After all, the truth is the truth.


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## Dave M (Aug 29, 2006)

Most of all, try to get your friend to show you the written restriction. Or have her call and ask where the restriction is in the materials your friend received. There is no way to restrict II trading if the restriction isn't in the legal materials. 

As I stated earlier, this restriction doesn't exist. My research makes me sure of it. Still, it would be nice to bring closure _for your friend_.


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## Davey54321 (Jun 25, 2007)

*Marriott Resale exchange ans use restrictions - as per 2007 Sales presentation*

Hi. 
We attended a sales presentation this morning at the Marriott Aruba Surf Club and were told that Marriott is working on new restrictions for use of resale units whereby resale owners will only be allowed to reserve 6 months out (instead of normal 12 out) to make resale buying/owning less desirable. We were told this was still in legal (obviously then, nothing in writing) to work out the details. We are concerned as we were interested in purchasing a Marriott Aruba resale but now wonder whether further investing in Marriott vacation clubs at all (resale or from Marriott) makes sense for us (we are already resale owners at two other Marriott vacation club properties). If Marriott is so restricting and trying to control the resale market, doesn't that make Marriott vacation club ownership less valuable for all (resale or original) owners? Has anyone else recently heard anything about these new restrictions for Marriott resale owners? I realize this thread is old, but we were also told that Marriott will be somewhat severing ties to II by ~2012 when they will have many more properties (over 100) for internal trading so this would possibly enable further limitations for resale owners in terms of trading/exchanging (not just reserving ones own unit). Once again, there was nothing in writing - this is purely at the planning (or should I say scaring) stages at this point.  Any (recent) thoughts on this would be appreciated.


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## camachinist (Jun 25, 2007)

IMO, don't pay any attention to what sales tells you; rather, pay attention to what is in the governing documents. If you dislike the disparity between the two, avoid sales presentations and/or Marriott in general. Trust me, if they had told us blatant lies like that when we bought, I wouldn't own Marriott's right now. I just find dealing with that kind of people to be distasteful.

Buy the timeshare because of the fundamentals you desire for a pre-paid vacation and for no other reason, least of all what you hear from salespeople.

Maybe we can have an audio file that plays every time a person opens a forum here:

1. Buy resale

2. Salespeople lie

Again, repeat after me 

Pat


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## Beverley (Jun 25, 2007)

Perhaps someone out there knows a little more than I do about Starwood timeshares ... but I thought that Starwood has two types ... those they sell (developer) and those that are considered associate resorts (I think these are those they took over... built by another developer) and I thought there may be a few differences between the credits that could be converted.

Perhaps this sales rep is trying to express along that line.  But I find it interesting these stories are coming out of Aruba sales dept.  Perhaps they have an employment problem and are not getting the best of the best that do not have to resort to "anything goes" salesmenship.  Although ours are all bought directly from Marirott, I do think in the long run, it would hurt the overall values if Marriott treated resale owners differently.

Beverley


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2007)

2hokies said:


> It is a small world.  These people live less than 3 miles from us!  I'll probably run into them in the grocery store one of these days!



or they may both have had the same imaginative salesperson....


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## Davey54321 (Jun 26, 2007)

Some information (or lies told durng the presentation)
resold units :
 will only be able to pick from Marriott inventory 6 months out not 12 month as now 
When picking dates : direct purchases from Marriott come over resale owners for the same request. True?
Lockoff units: there will be no use of lockoff units on resales
pionts for referral as prior owners : according to Marriott we are not owners (we own resale) and do not qualify for referral ponits (unless we buy today!)
Rental Program: not available to resale units 

Of coarse everythings in legal (which means what?) If this goes through the only resales will be back to marriott, are they taking over the resale market?


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## Stefa (Jun 26, 2007)

Davey54321 said:


> Some information (or lies told durng the presentation)
> resold units :
> will only be able to pick from Marriott inventory 6 months out not 12 month as now
> When picking dates : direct purchases from Marriott come over resale owners for the same request. True?
> ...



A salesperson also told me that Ocean Pointe silver is a good trader...


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## CMF (Jun 26, 2007)

*I Marriott really Loved Us . . . . .*

. . . they would have a Marriott rep on this board - instead of making good old Dave M. chase down and extinguish rumors.


Charles


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## Stefa (Jun 26, 2007)

CMF said:


> . . . they would have a Marriott rep on this board - instead of making good old Dave M. chase down and extinguish rumors.



They wouldn't do this for the same reason they wouldn't be sharing details of their preliminary plans with the frontline salespeople.   At this point there probably isn't much to tell.


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## CMF (Jun 26, 2007)

*If they don't know they don't know.*

But, they could say that this or that is pure speculation.  A little dialog never hurt anyone 

Charles


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## swing4thefence (Jun 26, 2007)

*Holy hip waders batman........*

It's getting deep in here.
Tell the sales manager the name of that salesperson and see if he's still there next time you're in Aruba.




Davey54321 said:


> Some information (or lies told durng the presentation)
> resold units :
> will only be able to pick from Marriott inventory 6 months out not 12 month as now
> When picking dates : direct purchases from Marriott come over resale owners for the same request. True?
> ...


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## peterp (Jun 26, 2007)

*Grandfathered?*

If this is the truth (doubt it) all existing Marriott resale owners should be grandfathered in the old system. IE. Free to trade as we have been for years and when we purchased our resale week. 

So if Marriott wanted to do this on all "new" "resale" purchases.... say any resale closings after 2008, I cant see how this would affect current owners of resale weeks.

In other words this would create a logistical/legal nightmare for Marriott to roll out in any effective way.

I would just chauk this up to a unsucessful, unethical sales pitch........


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## Hoc (Jun 26, 2007)

Dave M said:


> About all we know so far is that Marriott eventually plans to handle all Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges internally. It will leave the Marriott-to-nonMarriott exchanges to II to handle, just as it does today.



That's probably the way it will come down, but that kind of sucks.  Personally, I like depositing my Marriott in II because:

1.  I get one or two bonus weeks; and
2.  I can trade my Marriott (and the bonus weeks) for other Marriotts with a preference, but if there is another nice resort available, I can trade them for that, as well.

If all Marriott to Marriott exchanges are handled internally, then we will have to choose when exchanging whether we want to do an internal exchange, or whether we want to try for something else out there.  Essentially, it limits exchangeability of the units based on our predetermined selection.  I think that, unless you absolutely know that you don't want to trade into Starwoods, Hiltons, etc., this is an unwelcome restriction on the trade power of our Marriott units.


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## Hoc (Jun 26, 2007)

peterp said:


> If this is the truth (doubt it) all existing Marriott resale owners should be grandfathered in the old system.



Historically, what Marriott "should" do has never been a limitation on what it has actually done.  The only thing that appears to motivate Marriott is the impact on its *current* bottom line.


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## Hoc (Jun 26, 2007)

PerryM said:


> Ellen,
> 
> I wish it were true that resale Marriotts could not trade in II – I’d be glad to jump on that class action lawsuit.




Eventually, it would settle.  You would get about 1,000 Marriott Rewards Points as a settlement -- but the class attorneys would make millions.


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## taffy19 (Jun 26, 2007)

Exactly and the expenses will be passed on to all their current and new customers with higher fees because of the class action lawsuit.


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## mtnpilot (Jun 29, 2007)

I doubt very seriously that sales folks would be accurately briefed about a change in Marriott policy that is "still in legal..."  There may be discussions around the sales team's water cooler, but I wouldn't give that much weight.

I'm no lawyer, but a floating week means the same for whatever kind of owner.  Since my Marriott deeds show that I own a specific week, perhaps I could sue for the right to use that specific week every year.

Bottom line, Marriott is showing a disturbing trend toward the timeshare "hucksters" and corporate does not seem to be quality controlling their sales force.  The "catch 22" is that, as timeshare resales become more well known, any measures that developers take to strong arm people away from resales and into purchasing developer weeks will only tend to drive people away from purchasing.  You can only profit from an uneducated market for so long...


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## John Cerra (Jun 29, 2007)

*Lets think about what Marriott can and can't do*

You are an owner of the property, and collectively the owners have hired Marriott to manage the property.  Marriott is glad to develop properties and then sell them for a profit, and then manage them, for a profit.  They do not own the property.  They cannot restrict your rights as owner.

You owners association has significant say here.  Marriott can change rules for what they own and control, such as their internal transfer system.  I imagine they could exclude resales from trading weeks in their internal system, but that is pretty self defeating.  First, the market will get tired of Marriott's limiting your "liquidity" and buyers will flock to other systems.  Second, on the hot locations, Marriott will limit the number of trades they can do, since they won't deal with resale owners.  Third, other systems will approach the Owners Association to manage the property and not be restrictive.  Imagine the blackeye if the homeowners association booted Marriott out...

Can they favor direct buyers on their internal systems?  Sure, if they want.  Does it make sense?  Well go ahead and tee me off, see how of my money you get going in the future.


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## KathyPet (Jun 30, 2007)

Marriott will do exactly what Marriott wants to do and if they can figure out how to limit the access of owners who bought resale in order to put another dollar in their pocket and push people to the Marriott resale  program don't think that they won't.  Witness the new and "improved" rental program ewhich is scamming owners out of hundreds of dollars that now goes into Marriott's pockets instead of owners.  I would not be at all surprised to see them limit the access of owners who bought resale outside of Marriott in the future.  Wake up and smell the coffee!!!


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## m61376 (Jun 30, 2007)

While I agree that Marriott will base its decision on what is financially advantageous for Marriott, I don't think the recent changes in the rental program has any bearing on the trading system they are reportedly developing. In fact, the new rental program is equally disadvantageous across the board; all owners are treated equally, whether resale or developer purchased.

If Marriott was suddenly to treat resale owners as second class citizens, the resale value of units would nosedive. True, Marriott could pick up units for a song then to potentially resell, but this would only be a short term benefit. If resale values depressed then the overall value of Marriott units and the Marriott name would follow suit. Marriott's best advertising is satisfied customers, who buy more of their products and/or recommend their friends. 

Even though timeshares are not really an investment, most people view especially higher end purchases such as these as investments to a certain degree. If Marriott was to devalue their resale value, purchasers would look to Marriott's competitors. So, it is in Marriott's best interests to retain the resale value of their units and that's why, I am firmly convinced, whatever system Marriott develops, will not discriminate against resale purchasers (just like their new rental program- it may not be great, but all owners are offerred the same rate).


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## ffxjack (Jun 30, 2007)

*Time will tell...*

I hope they do not differentiate against resale owners.  However, I can easily envision a process where they simply give developer owners a higher priority in their eventual internal trading system, similar to how current Marriott owners receive a higher priority when trading back into their own resorts or into another Marriott managed property.  If they try to give developer owners priority in booking their weeks, then I can definitely forsee a significant loss of value in the resale market.

I guess all of us resale owners will just have to cross our fingers and wait...until then Marriott salesman are able to make up various reasons why people should buy direct.


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## timeos2 (Jun 30, 2007)

*Developers are not the friends of owners*

Those who think that Marriott, DVC, Wastegate, RCI, II  or any developer/management/exchange group are looking out for owners best interests are sadly mistaken.  They all are in it to make as much as they can and have every edge.  It takes a lot to even keep them honest forget swing them to an owners rights stance. 

Marriott has recently become more like the others rather than staying at what had been the Gold Standard for developers.  DVC crossed over to the dark side almost a decade ago now. It is every owner for themselves and everyone would be wise to do everything possible to shore up resale values as there are far more of us individual owners than there are Developers selling at inflated retail prices. But developers have a big edge in savvy marketing and pressure both in sales and management. It is one of many reasons that I prefer to see resorts boot developer management and go with independents after the first 5-7 years. Having the developer stick around in any operational capacity long term is not a positive for owners.


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