# Abound Club Points strategy and desired resorts



## CPNY (Sep 1, 2022)

Now that the dust is starting to settle and we are getting more and more ideas around who’s in and who’s out, how will you use your VOI?
I can see myself converting one or two units and possibly renting more points if needed.

Which Marriott resorts are you dying to get your mitts on? In an ideal situation I’d be going for a few nights at the Ritz in STT coupled with a WSJ trip every or every other year. (Maybe it’s true, all of those Marriott people should have been worried about us Vistana people taking their best weeks….we’re coming!)

I’m also Interested in some long weekends at Lakeshore reserve, Beachplace towers, Crystal Shores or other Florida locations. Other than that I will be in the VSN as well as Interval!

Anyone use Club Points for Interval? Is it best to deposit points for a studio then pay the upgrade fee? Will studio points pull larger rooms? I’m really interested in Club Points in Interval for external exchanges my regular VOI wont pull.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Anyone use Club Points for Interval? Is it best to deposit points for a studio then pay the upgrade fee? Will studio points pull larger rooms? I’m really interested in Club Points in Interval for external exchanges my regular VOI wont.


Since we are Marriott owners, the first part doesn't really apply to our situation. As to this last point, you can deposit the minimum number of points to get a week placeholder deposit. Studio units will pull larger units, but they may not trade as well as larger units. You would pay the applicable upgrade fees, but it is probably a better way to get more exchanges than depositing more points. Just realize that you won't be able to exchange any Abound points through II for Marriott or Vistana resorts.


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## CPNY (Sep 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Since we are Marriott owners, the first part doesn't really apply to our situation. As to this last point, you can deposit the minimum number of points to get a week placeholder deposit. Studio units will pull larger units, but they may not trade as well as larger units. You would pay the applicable upgrade fees, but it is probably a better way to get more exchanges than depositing more points. Just realize that you won't be able to exchange any Abound points through II for Marriott or Vistana resorts.


Yeah external exchanges only. Do you have to deposit points or can you do a vacation search first?


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## travelhacker (Sep 1, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Now that the dust is starting to settle and we are getting more and more ideas around who’s in and who’s out, how will you use your VOI?
> I can see myself converting one or two units and possibly renting more points if needed.
> 
> Which Marriott resorts are you dying to get your mitts on? In an ideal situation I’d be going for a few nights at the Ritz in STT coupled with a WSJ trip every or every other year. (Maybe it’s try, all of those Marriott people should have been worried about us Vistana people taking their best weeks….we’re coming!)
> ...


I'm excited about the change. For me, the biggest loss is Maui becoming too expensive for me to want to trade in using Abound points (I may elect and bank SO to try and snag some Maui reservations in the future). Overall, I am really, really excited about having access to Abound. 

Here's how we plan on using Abound points:

1) Crystal Shores. We go to Southwest Florida at least once per year (Hyatt Coconut Plantation / Hyatt Siesta Key). It will be nice to throw this in the regular mix.
2) Colorado. Previously, I had really good access to Colorado resorts (Hyatt + VSN) but housekeeping fees were a bit of a buzzkill (and in Hyatt, I had to pay booking fees). I see many short getaways in our future.
3) Orlando / Newport Coast Villas / Hawaii. I know that I am usually better off doing an interval exchanges for these destinations, but I like the added flexibility. If I need a night or two to fill in between exchanges, having all of that availability with no booking or housekeeping fees will be really nice. I'm a points cheapskate, but even if I have to spend 800 points to stay an extra night at Ko'Olina before my next interval exchange, I'll still feel good about that because it beats the alternative of moving to a hotel for a 1 night stay.
4) One time vacation destinations. There are a lot of places in Abound that I won't go to regularly, but will be fun to use for big family trips (Costa Rica,Carribean, etc).
5) Family visits. We have a family of 5. I think it's in everyone's best interest for me stay in our own accommodations. I'd prefer the Westin Kierland when we go to Arizona, but the points chart for Canyon Villas looks quite good during times when we'd visit. My parents will have a place just 8 miles from Ocean Watch, so it'll be nice to be close to them (and let them visit us and use the amenities).

I am also interested in how to use Abound points in II. I see this more of a last resort when we have expiring points, but it is always nice to have a deposit here and there when something great comes up last minute.


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## CPNY (Sep 1, 2022)

@travelhacker I will be clearing my point usage with you before I do anything since you have it locked down!


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## travelhacker (Sep 1, 2022)

CPNY said:


> @travelhacker I will be clearing my point usage with you before I do anything since you have it locked down!


Sounds good! I've spent way too much time studying these charts the last few weeks. Happy to help.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Yeah external exchanges only. Do you have to deposit points or can you do a vacation search first?


You can setup searches or just search instant exchange inventory using points. In this case, you pay more points for higher season (TDI) and larger units. Where if you make a deposit of points, you can exchange into anything you can see or pull based on trade power and pay cash for any unit size upgrades.


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## CPNY (Sep 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> You can setup searches or just search instant exchange inventory using points. In this case, you pay more points for higher season (TDI) and larger units. Where if you make a deposit of points, you can exchange into anything you can see or pull based on trade power and pay cash for any unit size upgrades.


Ahh so it’s better to deposit points then pay the upgrade fee. The key is to use as little points as possible


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Ahh so it’s better to deposit points then pay the upgrade fee. The key is to use as little points as possible


It depends. You can't really see what a deposit will pull without depositing it first. When you search with points you see everything available up to the point value, but when you search with deposited points, it is really a week deposit and what you can pull is based on trade power. If you are only booking Orlando, depositing 1,000 points as a low season studio may work to trade up to larger units, but it won't work for those harder to get trades.


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## CPNY (Sep 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> It depends. You can't really see what a deposit will pull without depositing it first. When you search with points you see everything available up to the point value, but when you search with deposited points, it is really a week deposit and what you can pull is based on trade power. If you are only booking Orlando, depositing 1,000 points as a low season studio may work to trade up to larger units, but it won't work for those harder to get trades.


Harder to get trades in orlando or other locations? I may have to go with a mid season studio point value since Orlando has a TDI between 100-150 for all but a few weeks.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Harder to get trades in orlando or other locations? I may have to go with a mid season studio point value since Orlando has a TDI between 100-150 for all but a few weeks.


Harder to get in other locations. Trade power is a moving target and without being able to search with the deposited points first, makes it a bit of a crapshoot.


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## kozykritter (Sep 1, 2022)

In Vistana you can pull back/reverse an II deposit (for Flex, at least) as long as it's done before the end of the current use year of what was deposited and no exchanges have been done on it. How does it work with MVC points deposits?


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## CPNY (Sep 1, 2022)

kozykritter said:


> In Vistana you can pull back/reverse an II deposit (for Flex, at least) as long as it's done before the end of the current use year of what was deposited and no exchanges have been done on it. How does it work with MVC points deposits?


Great question…. @dioxide45, any insight?


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Great question…. @dioxide45, any insight?


I am pretty sure tha MVC point deposits are final just like Marriott weeks. The difference compared to Vistana weeks is that Vistana isn't really deposiring anything specific to your ownership. At some point they give II something for your resort. This is why you can deposit into II up to 12/31 of your use year with Vistana.


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## kozykritter (Sep 1, 2022)

Back to your original question, I love to hike and plan to focus in on the two mountain properties where I spend the most time, Sheraton Steamboat and Marriott MountainSide. Being a dual owner, I already had multiple ways to access both and am excited to have the ability to directly convert my Sheraton Flex to Club Points. Now for each week I stay I can compare the various point and cash costs and flexibility of booking in VSN, booking through II with Flex home options or Getaways, converting ownership to Club Points to book MVC and/or Vistana properties or using my existing owned Club Points...whew! Good thing I have a degree in Accounting  I've already figured out several sweet spots for me between all the systems due to different seasonalities when low, shoulder and high seasons crossover so any trip may be a mishmash of all of those options. Thanks Marriott for more options!


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 1, 2022)

Thanks Chris (@CPNY) for starting this thread. I may just learn something.

For reference, can someone link what we know so far about the points giving for the various VSN resorts?

As mentioned before for our Ownership:
WKORV OFD (requalified resale Mandatory) — an exchange whether within VSN or Abound is a very poor value based on the high MFs (and best villa within VSN IMO). Plan to use the 1Bd side. Plan to either use or rent the studio side. I was able to rent 2023 usage (whale season) for $2800 which puts our 1Bd side at ~$100/nt.

WKV 1Bd Plat (x2, resale Mandatory) — generally rent, but also use to stay or exchange for a 1Bd WKORV/N (as intended when purchased). Perhaps I would use in Abound if there were a specific location we’d want to go (e.g.
Big Island). 

WPORV EOY (Developer, Voluntary) — plan to use as we love North Kauai ever so often, and like WPORV. We do use studio side to get a 1Bd (thru VSN), or stay at Poipu, as I don’t like the studios (too confining). MFs too high to use in Abound.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TravelTime (Sep 1, 2022)

My biggest recommendations are:

1) Study the points charts to travel in off season since points are often half of the high season requirements. People say the Abound points charts are complicated but really it is easy once you get used to it. There is usually a big difference in points based on view category and unit size so you can also maximize points this way. Frankly you can get a lot out of your points if you maximize.

2) For high demand resorts, book at 13 or 12 months depending on what is allowed for that resort. There is no list of when inventory is released i.e. 13 vs 12 months, but you can ask on TUG what is typical and they can tell you. For example, I believe Aruba is released at 12 months. I have actually seen good inventory released in Aruba at 12 months. Some resorts have two releases, one at 13 mo and another at 12 mo.

3) Do searches yourself even if you are not planning to book there yet. That will give you an idea of release patterns and how soon you need to book.

4) For your home resort, it is almost always better to use the underlying week and not points, whether the week is in Abound or Vistana. I anticipate that the home resort booking availability will remain the same. I do not think Abound will try to steal inventory from Vistana. With MVC, weeks owners did not seem to have an issue with not being able to book their home resort.

If I think of any other strategies, I will add them to this list.


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## CPNY (Sep 1, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> My biggest recommendations are:
> 
> 1) Study the points charts to travel in off season since points are often half of the high season requirements. People say the Abound points charts are complicated but really it is easy once you get used to it. There is usually a big difference in points based on view category and unit size so you can also maximize points this way. Frankly you can get a lot out of your points if you maximize.
> 
> ...


Very helpful


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## TravelTime (Sep 1, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Thanks Chris (@CPNY) for starting this thread. I may just learn something.
> 
> For reference, can someone link what we know so far about the points giving for the various VSN resorts?
> 
> ...



Actually, MF conversions seem to be better for Abound. For example, my WKOVRN week gets 8300 points. The MF is approx $3000. So the MF per point is approx $0.36. The trust point MF is about $0.68 (or more, can’t remember the exact number). Also cost per point in upfront fees including closing costs for my EOY week works out to $3.40 pp (annualized for EOY) vs $15 if you buy retail through MVC in sales office or approx $7-$8 pp for a hybrid package or approx $6 pp if you buy resale trust points. This is why insiders were buying VSN weeks.

I was about to purchase a second WKOVRN 2BR OF EOY week in 2021 and I didn’t. I had an offer accepted but then I changed my mind for all the reasons I have described before about why I do not really like Vistana or even Maui. Now I am kicking myself since the points come out to be so cost effective.

Someone said the cost per point in upfront fees is even more cost effective with IV/OV in Maui. I can see that but I think the MF pp comes out higher if they are paying the same MF as OF. I am not sure what the MF is for other view categories in Maui.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2022)

Once you start depositing into Abound, you are leading to the diminishing inventory available in VSN. You lead to the very thing many here seem to be rallying against.


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## Red elephant (Sep 1, 2022)

After looking at the point charts you can get almost 2-3 weeks in certain locations off season with a Maui week. That’s even better than renting that week in certain cases. I might just convert my week to Abound and purchase a resale for personal use. Because it’s mandatory I can use one week in Maui and use the other week for Kauai .


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## CPNY (Sep 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Once you start depositing into Abound, you are leading to the diminishing inventory available in VSN. You lead to the very thing many here seem to be rallying against.


I’m converting SVV units, I doubt anyone would care lol


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## TravelTime (Sep 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Once you start depositing into Abound, you are leading to the diminishing inventory available in VSN. You lead to the very thing many here seem to be rallying against.



Yes. The way I look at this is we live in a free market economy in a democracy. Abound and VSN can be viewed as either competitive or complimentary. If they are competitive then may the best one win. If Abound is designed to be better, then many of us are lucky to get our week enrolled with no cost. Others can enroll their week if it makes sense or use their home resort week or exchange in VSN or II, or sell if not happy. But rallying against another product because it is better and may hurt the old product sounds pretty authoritarian to me.


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## TravelTime (Sep 1, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> After looking at the point charts you can get almost 2-3 weeks in certain locations off season with a Maui week. That’s even better than renting that week in certain cases. I might just convert my week to Abound and purchase a resale for personal use. Because it’s mandatory I can use one week in Maui and use the other week for Kauai .



I have been saying this all year! No one listened until now.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Yes. The way I look at this is we live in a free market economy in a democracy. Abound and VSN can be viewed as either competitive or complimentary. If they are competitive then may the best one win. If Abound is designed to be better, then many of us are lucky to get out week enrolled with no cost. But rallying against another product because it is better and may hurt the old product sounds pretty authoritarian to me.


I am just playing off many of the posts in the forum over the last week or so. More out of sarcasm than anything...


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## dioxide45 (Sep 1, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> After looking at the point charts you can get almost 2-3 weeks in certain locations off season with a Maui week. That’s even better than renting that week in certain cases. I might just convert my week to Abound and purchase a resale for personal use. Because it’s mandatory I can use one week in Maui and use the other week for Kauai .


That is why many people expect so many Maui owners to take advantage of Abound. It doesn't work out all that well for WKV owners though.


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## Red elephant (Sep 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> That is why many people expect so many Maui owners to take advantage of Abound. It doesn't work out all that well for WKV owners though.
> [/QUOTE
> Yes that’s unfortunately true. But then again developer bought weeks have also lost and mandatory resales gained so it’s a give and take.
> As long as you bought where you want to go and your chances of getting your home resort week are the same then we should all be satisfied in some way. I am trying to learn how to make the best of these changes. I will only be buying resales going forward if I do buy. The lies by the sales team is just a turn off.


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## travelhacker (Sep 1, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> That is why many people expect so many Maui owners to take advantage of Abound. It doesn't work out all that well for WKV owners though.


Agreed -- if I owned Maui, I'd convert every year.

In regards to WKV, it doesn't work out all that well for 2BR WKV owners. I think most 1BR owners will be happier with the points they get.

I get why they don't allow splitting the VOI, but it's got to be frustrating to see the separate sides get almost 20% more Abound points. 

I'm expecting maintenance fees of about $725 for a small 1 bedroom (about 9% increase). I'll get 2150 points, so my maintenance fees per abound point will be less than 35 cents per point which seems like a pretty solid value.


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## tomvc (Sep 2, 2022)

We own both MVC and Vistana.  However, we don't own any MVC enrolled weeks, only resale points.  If VSN enrolled weeks work the same as MVC enrolled weeks, it's best to deposit your VSN week into II and not elect Abound points.  Deposited MVC enrolled weeks can exchange to MVC, WVC and SVC without exchange fee.  WKORV and WKV are too valuable, but this strategy may be worthwhile for SVV (more so if II preference period is combined, but highly unlikely).


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## Kildahl (Sep 2, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> My biggest recommendations are:
> 
> 1) Study the points charts to travel in off season since points are often half of the high season requirements. People say the Abound points charts are complicated but really it is easy once you get used to it. There is usually a big difference in points based on view category and unit size so you can also maximize points this way. Frankly you can get a lot out of your points if you maximize.
> 
> ...


Where can I find the new point charts?


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## tamu_bu (Sep 2, 2022)

Interested in abound locations not directly in Vistana - Lake Tahoe, Hilton Head, Park City. Also, living in Arkansas, Branson is a great option. It would be nice not to fly and yet not have a minimum 1,600 mile round trip drive.

I realize interval could have gotten us in to those locations but I only used it once. The Westin locations have spoiled my wife's expectations about accommodation quality (me too). But I think the Marriott locations will fit the bill and perhaps using abound will give easier access to them.

Sweet spots? I don't know. We only own 1, small br, WKV plat we are accustomed to booking at first minute available, traveling non peak season. I always feel Colorado in summer is a steal compared to ski season points. 

I think the best values will be found by those that follow the advice of picking the desired destination and timing, plan the trip as if using Vistana/Abound separately (or renting) and compare which system yields the lower "point cost". I believe there will be some scenarios where even with the famous Marriott skim, Abound will be better value. Not many, but some


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## Westnick (Sep 2, 2022)

Have the vistana resorts been assigned abound club pointe values yet? Is there a chart somewhere? I can’t seam to find anything.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 2, 2022)

This is the best we have.








						Vistana_DC_ConversionRates
					

Sheet1  Resort Code,Resort Name,Phase,Company Name,City,State,Country,Region,Unit Size,View,Home Season,VSN Season,StarOptions,Conversion,Elected Club Points SDO,Sheraton Desert Oasis,Vistana,Scottsdale,AZ,USA,Domestic,2BR Lockoff,N/A,1-21, 50-52,Platinum Plus,148,000,2,375 SDO,Sheraton Desert Oasis




					docs.google.com


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## dsmrp (Sep 2, 2022)

Kildahl said:


> Where can I find the new point charts?


Here are Marriott's point tables for Vistana resorts.
I think I got them off the FAQs on Vistana website, can't remember exactly.

The Marriott resorts tables are in Marriott forum linked to one of the stickies. 
Edit:. I found and attached a file just called "points_charts_2023.pdf" for Marriott resorts.


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## grrrah (Sep 2, 2022)

I'm hoping to get into Kauai resorts and Ko'olina, since I plan to deposit a Maui week at least once. With 2023 not opening to us until late October, think there will be any chances of finding 4-5 days next summer with some flexibility?  Hoping to find some scraps and supplement with some SO bookings at Princeville or Bonvoy res on oahu.

I'm also hoping to maximize with Sun-Fri stays and able to do midweek short stays at Newport and the Tahoe spots as they are more local to me.


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## CPNY (Sep 2, 2022)

I can’t wait to see if Ritz inventory is plentiful at 12 months. I think the Ritz and Florida locations are where I’ll be content.


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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I can’t wait to see if Ritz inventory is plentiful at 12 months. I think the Ritz and Florida locations are where I’ll be content.



It will not be for anything other than maybe San Francisco. You need to book STT at 13 months. Tahoe and Aspen are hard if impossible for a full week.

I booked 15N this year in STT at 13 months. I booked 8N in STT at about 8 months in 2019 while the island was still being rebuilt after the hurricane. Ritz STT is closed in Sept and Oct.

I booked 8N in April 2021 in Tahoe in 2 bookings closer in a 2BR in but that was during Covid. Still a surprise though since people were traveling to Tahoe en masse during Covid. Ritz Tahoe is hard because they do not have many units. I think I heard about 10 or so but could be a couple more or less. There are only two 2BRs.

Here is a list of what I think are some difficult resorts to book if you are not on at 13 months but others can add their comments too. 

Ritz Carltons year round - except San Francisco 
Crystal Shores - Marco Island - most of the year
Maui
Hilton Head in summer


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## CPNY (Sep 2, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> It will not be for anything other than maybe San Francisco. You need to book STT at 13 months. Tahoe and Aspen are hard if impossible for a full week.
> 
> I booked 15N this year in STT at 13 months. I booked 8N in STT at about 8 months in 2019 while the island was still being rebuilt after the hurricane.
> 
> I booked 8N in April 2021 in Tahoe in 2 bookings closer in a 2BR in but that was during Covid. Still a surprise though since people were traveling to Tahoe en masse during Covid. Ritz Tahoe is hard because they do not have many units. I think I heard about 10 or so but could be a couple more or less. There are only two 2BRs.


Ritz STT and possibly a few mid week nights in Vail is what I’d want. If Abound grants some of us owner levels beyond “Owner” level, would Executive be able to book at 13 months or would I need presidential or Chairman?


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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Ritz STT and possibly a few mid week nights in Vail is what I’d want. If Abound grants some of us owner levels beyond “Owner” level, would Executive be able to book at 13 months or would I need presidential or Chairman?



You can check the benefits chart for details:



			https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/OwnershipLevelsResources/benefits_at_a_glance.pdf
		


How many points will you have? Looks like Executive and above can book at 13 months.


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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

grrrah said:


> I'm hoping to get into Kauai resorts and Ko'olina, since I plan to deposit a Maui week at least once. With 2023 not opening to us until late October, think there will be any chances of finding 4-5 days next summer with some flexibility?  Hoping to find some scraps and supplement with some SO bookings at Princeville or Bonvoy res on oahu.
> 
> I'm also hoping to maximize with Sun-Fri stays and able to do midweek short stays at Newport and the Tahoe spots as they are more local to me.



Kauai and Ko Olina are not super hard to get. Harder in the summer but they are not locations that you need to be right on at 13 months to get.


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## CPNY (Sep 2, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Kauai and Ko Olina are not super hard to get. Harder in the summer but they are not locations that you need to be right on at 13 months to get.


Don’t know for sure but I may have a tad over 7K. We shall see what comes out when they release the values with Skim.

I probably won’t go to Hawaii at all. I’m going in Feb for the first time and being that it’s such a long flight from NY, I may look into tradewinds and do French Polynesia more than I’d go to Hawaii.

Ritz STT would be nice to add onto a WSJ SO reservation or rental


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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

I just did a direct comparison between SOs vs Abound points for 2BR WSJ in May. Here is a great comparison:

May 2-9
176K SOs (that equals a 2BR OF WKOVRN)
3675 abound points (that is half the point value of the SOs required)

So folks need to do a good job comparing where, when and what size unit to book to maximize Abound points and get a better value than with VSN.


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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Don’t know for sure but I may have a tad over 7K. We shall see what comes out when they release the values with Skim.
> 
> I probably won’t go to Hawaii at all. I’m going in Feb for the first time and being that it’s such a long flight from NY, I may look into tradewinds and do French Polynesia more than I’d go to Hawaii.
> 
> Ritz STT would be nice to add onto a WSJ SO reservation or rental



I highly recommend French Polynesia over Hawaii. We have been there twice to Tahiti, Bora Bora, Moorea, Le Tahaa and a few other smaller out islands. I think the cost is about the same as Hawaii. That is assuming you are comparing Hawaii hotels and not timeshares since there are no timeshares in Tahiti.

Nest year we are finally going to Fiji after 2 previous attempts where we had to cancel for various reasons. Again, there are no timeshares in Fiji but you can use Bonvoy points to stay in a few locations. We are not staying at the Marriott hotel locations when we go because I have other interests and places I want to see.


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## CPNY (Sep 2, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I highly recommend French Polynesia over Hawaii. We have been there twice to Tahiti, Bora Bora, Moorea, Le Tahaa and a few other smaller out islands. I think the cost is about the same as Hawaii. That is assuming you are comparing Hawaii hotels and not timeshares since there are no timeshares in Tahiti.
> 
> Nest year we are finally going to Fiji after 2 previous attempts where we had to cancel for various reasons. Again, there are no timeshares in Fiji but you can use Bonvoy points to stay in a few locations. We are not staying at the Marriott hotel locations when we go because I have other interests and places I want to see.


I went to FP on a tradewinds through RCI! It was amazing. That’s my next purchase


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## sharr7 (Sep 2, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I just did a direct comparison between SOs vs Abound points for 2BR WSJ in May. Here is a great comparison:
> 
> May 2-9
> 176K SOs (that equals a 2BR OF WKOVRN)
> ...


Your point about making careful comparisons is good but a couple caveats:
-You can book Virgin Grand phase that week for 148K due to weeks being slightly different. Point being even within each system you should educate yourself and book carefully.
-SOs clearly have varying values within Abound so saying its half the value is true of the best (i.e., best point conversion) OF HI units but others with 176K/148K SO may not even get 3500 points so it may make clear sense to book in VSN.


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## sharr7 (Sep 2, 2022)

How about Aruba and St. Kitts availability at or past 13 months? And Europe?

Those are the first few resorts I'd probably be targeting to trade into from VSN


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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> Your point about making careful comparisons is good but a couple caveats:
> -You can book Virgin Grand phase that week for 148K due to weeks being slightly different. Point being even within each system you should educate yourself and book carefully.
> -SOs clearly have varying values within Abound so saying its half the value is true of the best (i.e., best point conversion) OF HI units but others with 176K/148K SO may not even get 3500 points so it may make clear sense to book in VSN.



Good points. In general, everyone should study the Abound charts vs the SOs charts to decide. I am sure there are sweet spots for other people without Maui units too.

I saw good inventory in the VSN at 8 months today, which was a pleasant surprise. Right before Covid, I did not see good inventory at 8 months. I guess it varies a lot. I wonder why it can vary so much.

In terms of using my Maui unit to book using 148K SOs, I would not do that because then I would only have 28K SOs left and I would end up losing them. So I am better off using Abound points for sure. Plus I would need to book at 8 months using VSN vs 12 months using Abound.

I was just surprised at how ineffective SOs can be for Maui units unless I am booking my home resort And there are some exceptions to this too. For WKOVRN 2BR OF, I am better off using Abound if I am booking the dates below because I get 8325 points and it costs 8200 points to book on any of these dates. People say there is skim but there are also dates when you can use your points effectively and avoid skim.

Jan 6–Jan 26
Mar 31–Apr 6
Apr 14–Jun 1
Aug 25-Nov 16
Dec 1–Dec 21

I do not know the point conversion for anything other than what I own or I could look to see if there are sweet spots for other VSN units.

A caveat to some of my points above. Marriott said there will not be much Vistana inventory in the beginning so I would assume it does not make sense to use Abound points for Vistana resorts until Abound is more developed and has more inventory.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 2, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> It will not be for anything other than maybe San Francisco. You need to book STT at 13 months. Tahoe and Aspen are hard if impossible for a full week.
> 
> I booked 15N this year in STT at 13 months. I booked 8N in STT at about 8 months in 2019 while the island was still being rebuilt after the hurricane. Ritz STT is closed in Sept and Oct.
> 
> ...



Remember, for MVC, not all inventory is released at 13 months. They hold as much as half back for release at 12 months. So if you fail at 13, try again at 12. I've actually found the availability for Maui at 12 months to be far more than at 13.


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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Remember, for MVC, not all inventory is released at 13 months. They hold as much as half back for release at 12 months. So if you fail at 13, try again at 12. I've actually found the availability for Maui at 12 months to be far more than at 13.



Yes 13 or 12 months. I was saying 13 months but I should have been clear that Marriott also releases a lot at 12 months. For some resorts like Aruba, they release at 12 months and rarely if ever at 13 months. Spain in the summer is another hard one to get. 

I missed the 13 month deadline for MOC this year. So I read your posts about MOC and you taught me to try to book at 12 months. Luckily, I was online right at 12 months and got MOC Napili OF 2BR which was exactly what I wanted. The pain point was how many points it cost since it was Easter week and almost the most points of any season.


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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I went to FP on a tradewinds through RCI! It was amazing. That’s my next purchase



Tradewinds is amazing. We did it prior to Covid, probably in 2018, in St Vincent and the Grenadines for a Babymooon that failed. We did not have kids in 2018.  We were supposed to adopt 2 older kids in Taiwan in 2018 so we booked a last minute Tradewinds cruise through RCI. Tradewinds told us they were kid friendly. So we purchased a package of points and we were all excited to sail with them in the future with the kids. Then I went online and saw how few sailings they had with kids. So we rescinded.

Our story ended well in the end. We adopted 2 other older kids within the US in 2020 through private adoption (not foster care) - during the height of the pandemic! You never know what joy might come out of a disaster like Covid. For several reasons, if it weren‘t for Covid, we would have never tried to adopt again. Now we have 2 beautiful daughters who we got when they were 5 and 8 - now 7 and 10. The joys of our lives.


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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> How about Aruba and St. Kitts availability at or past 13 months? And Europe?
> 
> Those are the first few resorts I'd probably be targeting to trade into from VSN



St Kitts is easy to get at more or less at any time. Aruba becomes available at 12 months and I have seen inventory available even after the 12 months window. For Europe, it depends on where and what season. Summer in Spain is really hard to get no matter when you try. Shoulder seasons, which are great times to visit Spain, are popular but possible. The rest of the year in Spain is not hard to get. I own a week in Spain. I am not familiar with the Disney property near Paris.


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## byeloe (Sep 2, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> , I would not do that because then I would only have 28K SOs left and I would end up losing them


With the new club fees, you could bank them for free.


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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

byeloe said:


> With the new club fees, you could bank them for free.



To use SOs at 8 months, I would already have them banked. I think I would need to borrow to use them. But my point is that there is nothing I would want to use with a spare 28K SOs. If I borrow to use them, then I still risk losing SOs because there would still be nothing I could precisely use. Keep in mind also that I travel in 2BRs, I only own 1 EOY week and the only VSN places that interest me are Hawaii, Harborside, Lagunamar and WSJ. I think people with more weeks that are annual might benefit more from the banking and borrowing strategies.


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## byeloe (Sep 2, 2022)

@TravelTime You have your vacation strategy working perfectly.  I appreciate your tips on Abound usage.
I have only 2 mandatory 1bds at WKV so I think I might have around 4700 ish points.  Right now I can get 4 weeks in a Lagunamar studio or 26 nights in a 1 BD at Lagunamar using staroptions at 8 months.

I will have to check the Abound charts to see if I can find similar value. My biggest issue with Marriott is that their studios are not good compared to Westin


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 2, 2022)

Ok - @TravelTime convinced me to evaluate our positions for use in Abound.  

As I understand from the posted values…
(2023 MFs estimated)

Our VOIs:
1. WKV P+ (81K SO, ~$1100 MF) = 2,600 CP ($/CP = 0.42)

2. WKV P+ (81K SO, ~$1100 MF) = 2,600 CP ($/CP = 0.42)

3. WKORV OFD (176.7K SO, ~$3500 MF) = 8,325 CP ($/CP = 0.42)

4. WPORV EOY (74.05K SO, ~$1600 MF) = 2150 CP ($/CP = 0.74) - Corrected
{adjusted to EY}

So I have a potential total of 15,125 CPs available in Abound ($/CPavg = 0.47). 9925 CP from VSN qualified VOIs (WKORV and WPORV) used for 3* Elite Status (prior) and 5200 CP from WKV resale.

Observations:
WPORV EOY - OUCH! This value really sucks for Owners. Guess we will use as always planned EOY.

Looks like a $/CP of 0.42 for WKV and WKORV OFD may be a reasonable value for use in Abound - correct?

If so, I may consider our WKVs for Abound if there is a specific resort to explore (e.g. if one is on the Big Island)

Does our CP total of 15,125 get anything in regards to BonVoy Status?
I am still not clear on this. Currently 3*, because of WPORV and WKORV Requal.
Is it just these 9925 CPs that goes to BV Status that were formerly used for 3*?

btw - I looked at our prior 2 weeks for WSJ-VGV 2Bd Gold that we gave away . A $/CP of 0.96 is awful. Worse than WPORV.

Do I understand correctly?
TIA

[Note: Corrected WPORV]
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## TravelTime (Sep 2, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Ok - @TravelTime convinced me to evaluate our positions for use in Abound.
> 
> As I understand from the posted values…
> (2023 MFs estimated)
> ...



Overall it sounds correct. 

I assume you did this but let me double check. I am wondering about WPORV EOY. Did you calculate half the MF against half the points you would get annualized? $1 pp is really high and that one is a surprise.

The other thing to consider is that instead of looking at each MF pp individually to make decisions, you could look at your overall MF pp for the portfolio. That is what most people do. I have trust points at $.68 and others that are lower. For all my points, it averages about $0.50. So when estimating how much I am paying for a week using points, I just divide in half. What is the overall MF per club point for all your weeks?

With 15,125 CPs, you are Chairmans level. You get Titanium with Bonvoy. You retain the 2 years of banking. 30% discount off CPs for bookings made within 60 days. There are a bunch of other benefits that you may or may not value.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 2, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Overall it sounds correct.
> 
> I assume you did this but let me double check. I am wondering about WPORV EOY. Did you calculate half the MF against half the points you would get annualized? $1 pp is really high and that one is a surprise.
> 
> ...



Thanks.

I did correct for the EOY, but inputted wrong CP (2150 vs 1600). it should be $0.74. I could be wrong on the MFs but not by much. I edited above post.

The value for WPORV is truly awful. I can’t wait to bring this up during our next Owners Update.

My average $/CP is 0.47, but w/o WPORV - $/CP is 0.42

I am surprised that our 1Bd WKV P+ is approx. the same as our WKORV OFD ($/CP of 0.42). How does that work?
Also, plan to address with Sales.

The Levels are confusing (so far) - I assume there are different level definitions between MVC and BonVoy?


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## CPNY (Sep 2, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Tradewinds is amazing. We did it prior to Covid, probably in 2018, in St Vincent and the Grenadines for a Babymooon that failed. We did not have kids in 2018.  We were supposed to adopt 2 older kids in Taiwan in 2018 so we booked a last minute Tradewinds cruise through RCI. Tradewinds told us they were kid friendly. So we purchased a package of points and we were all excited to sail with them in the future with the kids. Then I went online and saw how few sailings they had with kids. So we rescinded.
> 
> Our story ended well in the end. We adopted 2 other older kids within the US in 2020 through private adoption (not foster care) - during the height of the pandemic! You never know what joy might come out of a disaster like Covid. For several reasons, if it weren‘t for Covid, we would have never tried to adopt again. Now we have 2 beautiful daughters who we got when they were 5 and 8 - now 7 and 10. The joys of our lives.


I love that!! Congrats and May your family be blessed.


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## CPNY (Sep 2, 2022)

sharr7 said:


> How about Aruba and St. Kitts availability at or past 13 months? And Europe?
> 
> Those are the first few resorts I'd probably be targeting to trade into from VSN


Depending on when you want to go you could have already booked Aruba and st kitts all this time in interval. I’ve exchanged into Aruba both surf and ocean clubs with good season Harborside resorts.


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## CPNY (Sep 2, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Remember, for MVC, not all inventory is released at 13 months. They hold as much as half back for release at 12 months. So if you fail at 13, try again at 12. I've actually found the availability for Maui at 12 months to be far more than at 13.


I wish they would hold some back to be released throughout the year. Imagine a second wave of high demand resorts 6 months out that would make the program a huge draw for some.


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## TravelTime (Sep 3, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I did correct for the EOY, but inputted wrong CP (2150 vs 1600). it should be $0.74. I could be wrong on the MFs but not by much. I edited above post.
> 
> ...



I assume your 1BR WKV P+ has a low MF so even though it may be valued at what folks think is too little for P+ season, the $/CP turns out to be cost effective. OTOH, WKOVRN OFD has a high MF but gets a lot of CPs so that would be why the overall $/CP comes out the same.

I do not think too many Vistana owners are doing the $/CP calculation yet. It would be interesting to start a thread about this topic once the dust settles and folks are clear on how many CPs they are getting for their week. 

Overall, you are doing great with your Vistana ownerships and conversion rates due to how cost effective they are. $0.47 vs $0.68 with Abound trust points is really outstanding. Your overall average is better than mine since it seems like the CPs awarded to Vistana vs the MF are much more cost effective than trust points and/or many of the Marriott weeks. 

Chairman’s club level in Abound maps to Titanium Elite level in Bonvoy on the hotel side. The hotel side benefits are not huge but there are a few like free upgrades (which they always give, some are better than others), early/late check in/out, Silver level with United Airlines, and some others. 

I do not bother knowing every level since that gets confusing. I just focus on my levels. In case you have not seen the charts, here they are:

Titanium Elite Benefits




__





						Titanium Elite
					

Stay 75 Nights in a Year to Unlock Platinum Elite Status With Marriott Bonvoy. Get 75% More Points, 48-Hour Guarantee, Dedicated Elite Support & More.




					www.marriott.com
				




Marriott Vacation Club Benefits


			https://www.marriottvacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/OwnershipLevelsResources/benefits_at_a_glance.pdf


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## dioxide45 (Sep 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I assume your 1BR WKV P+ has a low MF so even though it may be valued at what folks think is too little for P+ season, the $/CP turns out to be cost effective. OTOH, WKOVRN OFD has a high MF but gets a lot of CPs so that would be why the overall $/CP comes out the same.
> 
> I do not think too many Vistana owners are doing the $/CP calculation yet. It would be interesting to start a thread about this topic once the dust settles and folks are clear on how many CPs they are getting for their week.
> 
> ...


The 1BR WKV units seem to fare better than the whole 2BR. THis is because Marriott is giving them a higher point value. If one was to have one of each side owned separately, they would get more Abound points than the whole 2BR owned together.


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## byeloe (Sep 3, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The 1BR WKV units seem to fare better than the whole 2BR. THis is because Marriott is giving them a higher point value. If one was to have one of each side owned separately, they would get more Abound points than the whole 2BR owned together.


We purchased our resale units earlier this year.  The seller did not have any 2BD inventory left so we bought the set of 1BD. It will be a bonus for us if we ever decide to elect Abound points.  The points difference is not insignificant, around 700 I think


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## TravelTime (Sep 3, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> The 1BR WKV units seem to fare better than the whole 2BR. THis is because Marriott is giving them a higher point value. If one was to have one of each side owned separately, they would get more Abound points than the whole 2BR owned together.



Interesting. The points allocations generally make sense but there are always a few outliers.

It would be interesting to have a master thread on point conversions and cost effectiveness of owning the various units based MF per club point.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I assume your 1BR WKV P+ has a low MF so even though it may be valued at what folks think is too little for P+ season, the $/CP turns out to be cost effective. OTOH, WKOVRN OFD has a high MF but gets a lot of CPs so that would be why the overall $/CP comes out the same.
> 
> I do not think too many Vistana owners are doing the $/CP calculation yet. It would be interesting to start a thread about this topic once the dust settles and folks are clear on how many CPs they are getting for their week.
> 
> ...




I did some calculations in Abound for our VSN that have a good $/CP value (~0.42)

For our WKORV OFD VOI, I’ve rented the studio side for $2800. That leaves the 1Bd side at ~$100/nt. That can’t be beat no matter how I slice it. Besides (as mentioned), IMO the 1Bd OFD are one of the best villa locations in VSN (if not the best) - we bought to use it and plan to continue.

For our two 1Bd WKV P+ (large) VOIs:
An Abound location that appeals to us is a 1Bd OV at Waikoloa on The Big Island and looks like there may be some value here using Abound.
However, I have been getting $2200 per week, or a 1Bd at WKORV/N using VSN. From RedWeek for a 1Bd Waikoloa villas listed (for time we would go - 8/25 to 11/16), it looks like some of them can be rented for close to what we get for our rental price at WKV.

Our 2600 points per week from WKV would not get us a week for a 1Bd at Waikoloa 

Unless I am missing something, my enthusiasm for Abound has been somewhat tempered.


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## TravelTime (Sep 3, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> I did some calculations in Abound for our VSN that have a good $/CP value (~0.42)
> 
> For our WKORV OFD VOI, I’ve rented the studio side for $2800. That leaves the 1Bd side at ~$100/nt. That can’t be beat no matter how I slice it. Besides (as mentioned), IMO the 1Bd OFD are one of the best villa locations in VSN (if not the best) - we bought to use it and plan to continue.
> 
> ...



I see Abound as convenience since I do not like to deal with renting not matter how easy and profitable it is. But I understand why others like to rent their weeks and use the cash to then rent someone else’s week on Redweek. If I wanted to rent on Redweek I would have never purchased a timeshare myself. Just what works for me.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I see Abound as convenience since I do not like to deal with renting not matter how easy and profitable it is. But I understand why others like to rent their weeks and use the cash to then rent someone else’s week on Redweek. If I wanted to rent on Redweek I would have never purchased a timeshare myself. Just what works for me.



Just because you don’t utilize it, doesn’t make it a non-factor.
I didn’t buy WKV or WKORV OFD with the intent to rent - I didn’t even know that was possible at the time (2006-2008). RedWeek was in its infancy.
However, it turned out to be of extreme value and should not be discounted.


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## jjking42 (Sep 3, 2022)

what effect do you think this will have on Bulk deposits with II ?


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## Red elephant (Sep 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I assume your 1BR WKV P+ has a low MF so even though it may be valued at what folks think is too little for P+ season, the $/CP turns out to be cost effective. OTOH, WKOVRN OFD has a high MF but gets a lot of CPs so that would be why the overall $/CP comes out the same.
> 
> I do not think too many Vistana owners are doing the $/CP calculation yet. It would be interesting to start a thread about this topic once the dust settles and folks are clear on how many CPs they are getting for their week.
> 
> ...


For SVR it’s $0.42 it’s a good thing you mentioned this as I would never have thought to calculate it. That is a good ratio. 
and Nanea is $0.45. 
SDO is $0.61 but locking that off and depositing in interval or renting fares better.
I need to calculate WSJ. Not sure if that would be good.


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## Red elephant (Sep 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Interesting. The points allocations generally make sense but there are always a few outliers.
> 
> It would be interesting to have a master thread on point conversions and cost effectiveness of owning the various units based MF per club point.


It looks like these conversions are actually better than buying club points. As Chairman I get to book 1-7 days at 13 months I believe and I like booking t sun- thurs based on the point charts.


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## Red elephant (Sep 3, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Just because you don’t utilize it, doesn’t make it a non-factor.
> I didn’t buy WKV or WKORV OFD with the intent to rent - I didn’t even know that was possible at the time (2006-2008). RedWeek was in its infancy.
> However, it turned out to be of extreme value and should not be discounted.
> 
> ...


I did not know about redweek  till 2 years ago. So it’s helpful to know all options. That’s why I am here. As I have made costly mistakes. Not knowing  about resales being one of them but I did buy were I like to go so that is my saving grace


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## Red elephant (Sep 3, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Depending on when you want to go you could have already booked Aruba and st kitts all this time in interval. I’ve exchanged into Aruba both surf and ocean clubs with good season Harborside resorts.


What period did you exchange for? I own Harborside and would like to try my hand at interval to go to Aruba.


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## CPNY (Sep 3, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> What period did you exchange for? I own Harborside and would like to try my hand at interval to go to Aruba.


Deposit and put in a search. I’ve gotten anytime from May to September (the usual time I go
To Atlantis)


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## Red elephant (Sep 3, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Deposit and put in a search. I’ve gotten anytime from May to September (the usual time I go
> To Atlantis)


Thanks will try May and September .


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## CPNY (Sep 3, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> I did some calculations in Abound for our VSN that have a good $/CP value (~0.42)
> 
> For our WKORV OFD VOI, I’ve rented the studio side for $2800. That leaves the 1Bd side at ~$100/nt. That can’t be beat no matter how I slice it. Besides (as mentioned), IMO the 1Bd OFD are one of the best villa locations in VSN (if not the best) - we bought to use it and plan to continue.
> 
> ...


My enthusiasm for abound is strictly if I get executive and can try my had at ritz at 13 months. If I can’t then I’ll play around with longer weekends at certain places. The problem for me is booking 12-13 months in advance isn’t ideal. Between my first/main job and my second job as a football official I don’t know when meetings and mandatory things pop up until a month or two before. I wish Marriott would hold inventory back and release it in dribs and drabs to make
Vacation ownership truly flexible


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## Red elephant (Sep 3, 2022)

CPNY said:


> My enthusiasm for abound is strictly if I get executive and can try my had at ritz at 13 months. If I can’t then I’ll play around with longer weekends at certain places. The problem for me is booking 12-13 months in advance isn’t ideal. Between my first/main job and my second job as a football official I don’t know when meetings and mandatory things pop up until a month or two before. I wish Marriott would hold inventory back and release it in dribs and drabs to make
> Vacation ownership truly flexible


I think the club points might help with this. I got 4 days Marco Island with this method in May ( as a select owner) and stayed at the JW for a couple of days.
I am hoping to get a few days at the Ritz STT (as chairman now) when I go to WSJ.


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## CPNY (Sep 3, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> I think the club points might help with this. I got 4 days Marco Island with this method in May ( as a select owner) and stayed at the JW for a couple of days.
> I am hoping to get a few days at the Ritz STT (as chairman now) when I go to WSJ.


Please let me know how it works for you. I’ll be def trying to hybrid ritz STT And WSJ.


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## Westnick (Sep 3, 2022)

Can you split a lockoff? Meaning can you use the one bedroom for the home resort and use the studio for abound club points? WKV mandatory resale.


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## TravelTime (Sep 3, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Just because you don’t utilize it, doesn’t make it a non-factor.
> I didn’t buy WKV or WKORV OFD with the intent to rent - I didn’t even know that was possible at the time (2006-2008). RedWeek was in its infancy.
> However, it turned out to be of extreme value and should not be discounted.
> 
> ...



I do agree the option to rent is a great value and another viable option. I rented my WKOVRN OF in 2021 because I was not planning to use it. I rented it for a low amount to get it rented fast. I did it because I did not plan to use it. I much prefer to elect Abound points for it than to rent it but that is my preference for me. It is good we have so many options so everyone can do what works best for them.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 3, 2022)

Westnick said:


> Can you split a lockoff? Meaning can you use the one bedroom for the home resort and use the studio for abound club points? WKV mandatory resale.


No, if you own a lockoff you have to elect points on the whole thing.

If you owned a 1BR Premium and a 1BR Standard separately, you come out ahead as you get more Abound Club Points as someone who owns the full 2BR. I think at some resorts like WKV, the MF is the same for the full 2BR as each side separately, but SDO is higher if you own both sides.


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## William Seward (Sep 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Kauai and Ko Olina are not super hard to get. Harder in the summer but they are not locations that you need to be right on at 13 months to get.


I would agree Kauai and Ko Olin’s are not super hard to get. But I’m curious if anybody has an opinion what are the super hard resorts to get?


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 3, 2022)

William Seward said:


> I would agree Kauai and Ko Olin’s are not super hard to get. But I’m curious if anybody has an opinion what are the super hard resorts to get?



How about Waikoloa on BI? Anything to know about this resort?


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## pchung6 (Sep 3, 2022)

Here I come. I’m looking at their Ritz Carlton as the only resorts I’m interested. I’ve no interests in any of their Marriotts, I rather stay at Westin. But Ritz is one step up from Westin. I definitely will look into it and take the best week away from MVC owners if possible. STT Ritz and STJ Westin can make an awesome trip next year.


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## DavidnRobin (Sep 3, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> Here I come. I’m looking at their Ritz Carlton as the only resorts I’m interested. I’ve no interests in any of their Marriotts, I rather stay at Westin. But Ritz is one step up from Westin. I definitely will look into it and take the best week away from MVC owners if possible.



Except, the Ritz is on St Thomas and WSJ is on St John.
Huge difference.
Not that St Thomas is awful, but St John is uniquely beautiful. And 2/3rds National Park.

Of course - if just staying on Resort - I am sure the Ritz is fantastic. We didn’t really use the Main Resort at WSJ, and the beach is poor compared to the others on StJ.


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## pchung6 (Sep 3, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Except, the Ritz is on St Thomas and WSJ is on St John.
> Huge difference.
> Not that St Thomas is awful, but St John is uniquely beautiful. And 2/3rds National Park.
> 
> ...


I will see if I can go to both St. John and st Thomas in 1 same trip. I stayed at frenchcove once, wasn’t too impressed with Marriott. I’m sure it’ll be much better experience with Ritz. I will take away their Ritz week.


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## TravelTime (Sep 3, 2022)

William Seward said:


> I would agree Kauai and Ko Olin’s are not super hard to get. But I’m curious if anybody has an opinion what are the super hard resorts to get?



Maui
Ritz STT, Tahoe, Aspen, sometimes Vail
Spain in summer, sometimes
Hilton Head in summer
Costa Rica


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## TravelTime (Sep 3, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> How about Waikoloa on BI? Anything to know about this resort?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Not too hard to get. They do not have full kitchens.


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## TravelTime (Sep 3, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> Here I come. I’m looking at their Ritz Carlton as the only resorts I’m interested. I’ve no interests in any of their Marriotts, I rather stay at Westin. But Ritz is one step up from Westin. I definitely will look into it and take the best week away from MVC owners if possible. STT Ritz and STJ Westin can make an awesome trip next year.



Ritz STT owners are fractional owners and own 3 weeks each. So it is unlikely you will take anything away from them. They have their own booking system. Also normally unless you get lucky, you can expect to stay on low floors here. The Ritz STT is closed in Sept and Oct. There are 2 categories here: 2BR with full kitchen and 2BR suite with partial kitchen but it is functional. If you stay here, be quiet about being part of Abound. The owners here are snooty and resentful that it is so cheap to stay with points compared to what they pay.


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## Red elephant (Sep 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Ritz STT owners are fractional owners and own 3 weeks each. So it is unlikely you will take anything away from them. They have their own booking system. Also normally unless you get lucky, you can expect to stay on low floors here. The Ritz STT is closed in Sept and Oct. There are 2 categories here: 2BR with full kitchen and 2BR suite with partial kitchen but it is functional. If you stay here, be quiet about being part of Abound. The owners here are snooty and resentful that it is so cheap to stay with points compared to what they pay.


When is the best time to try and get the Ritz STT and I would only be interested in a 2BR suite for a few days before heading to WSJ.


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## TravelTime (Sep 3, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> When is the best time to try and get the Ritz STT and I would only be interested in a 2BR suite for a few days before heading to WSJ.



At 13 months. Why only the 2BR suite?


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## Red elephant (Sep 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> At 13 months. Why only the 2BR suite?


Smaller point allocation and it’s just 2 of us. I don’t cook on vacation.


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## TravelTime (Sep 3, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> Smaller point allocation and it’s just 2 of us. I don’t cook on vacation.



It is a difference of approx 200 points per week in off season when points allocation is lower. That is so low as to be irrelevant to most people. We cooked almost everyday in STT because one meal out is like groceries for 4 days.


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## Red elephant (Sep 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> It is a difference of approx 200 points per week in off season when points allocation is lower. That is so low as to be irrelevant to most people. We cooked almost everyday in STT because one meal out is like groceries for 4 days.


I have to look at the points again . Remember I am going for sun-thur not the week. Yeah I just refuse to cook on vacation . I do it at home and I don’t eat out at home.


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## pchung6 (Sep 3, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Ritz STT owners are fractional owners and own 3 weeks each. So it is unlikely you will take anything away from them. They have their own booking system. Also normally unless you get lucky, you can expect to stay on low floors here. The Ritz STT is closed in Sept and Oct. There are 2 categories here: 2BR with full kitchen and 2BR suite with partial kitchen but it is functional. If you stay here, be quiet about being part of Abound. The owners here are snooty and resentful that it is so cheap to stay with points compared to what they pay.


No, I don’t think I will take anything from Ritz owners. I’m more interested taking away the available Ritz week or days from MVC owners. They can enjoy my SVV weeks.


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## CPNY (Sep 4, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Except, the Ritz is on St Thomas and WSJ is on St John.
> Huge difference.
> Not that St Thomas is awful, but St John is uniquely beautiful. And 2/3rds National Park.
> 
> ...


If I do this hybrid trios, I’d probably start off at WSJ for the amazing island then finish with a stay at STT Ritz and enjoy the pool and resort grounds.


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## CPNY (Sep 4, 2022)

pchung6 said:


> No, I don’t think I will take anything from Ritz owners. I’m more interested taking away the available Ritz week or days from MVC owners. They can enjoy my SVV weeks.


You’re friggin hilarious LOL


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## TravelTime (Sep 4, 2022)

DavidnRobin said:


> Except, the Ritz is on St Thomas and WSJ is on St John.
> Huge difference.
> Not that St Thomas is awful, but St John is uniquely beautiful. And 2/3rds National Park.
> 
> ...



It is possible we might consider a split stay between Ritz STT and WSJ. Besides driving to the beaches or hiking, what do you do on STJ that is unique and unattainable elsewhere in the islands?


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## CPNY (Sep 4, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> It is possible we might consider a split stay between Ritz STT and WSJ. Besides driving to the beaches or hiking, what do you do on STJ that is unique and unattainable elsewhere in the islands?


I’ve only been there once but to me SJ felt like a true remote island with civilization and STT felt like a typical island city, overbuilt and crowded. I’d rather be in SJ for a longer period of time and get that remote feeling with pristine beaches and aesthetics vs being on STT with ok beaches and the cruise crowd.

I’d opt for a week in WSJ and 3-4 nights on the back end to enjoy the ritz pool. SJ is great, but there is a bit of work that goes into the vacation I.e driving to beaches, packing coolers, and venturing out of the Westin to explore the island. Ritz STT would be a great resort stay and enjoy that pampered feeling before heading to the airport.


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## jjking42 (Sep 4, 2022)

MVC DC points owner can transfer points from one member to another. I dont think they have any limt on how many transfers can be done. I feel like my star options would be best used in booking westin resorts. If I am automatically enrolled in Abound can I just rent points from another MVC owner and book Marriott without even depositing my Vistana units. Maybe I deposit one unit in abound use the other for star options and if I need more abound points just rent them from a MVC owner.


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## Red elephant (Sep 4, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> It is possible we might consider a split stay between Ritz STT and WSJ. Besides driving to the beaches or hiking, what do you do on STJ that is unique and unattainable elsewhere in the islands?


I enjoy beach hopping the beaches  are all different and not easy to compare to other islands .  We go to a different beach every other day. Some have beach bars and others don’t . Hiking to the beach. The restaurant scene is amazing and  we shop in STT. Take the Westin cruise over shop have dinner and come back. Catamaran cruises to BVI but you can do that in STT. The taxi service at WSJ is well set up.
you have to island hop to get that in most islands or drive longer distances and they are not part of the US. 
Barbados is another island we’re I love beach hopping they even have a surfing side.


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## CPNY (Sep 4, 2022)

jjking42 said:


> MVC DC points owner can transfer points from one member to another. I dont think they have any limt on how many transfers can be done. I feel like my star options would be best used in booking westin resorts. If I am automatically enrolled in Abound can I just rent points from another MVC owner and book Marriott without even depositing my Vistana units. Maybe I deposit one unit in abound use the other for star options and if I need more abound points just rent them from a MVC owner.


That’s a good question. I don’t see why not. It will be interesting to see. I’d assume they want some sort of ownership in the account. I gather they want us to deposit vistana units to be able to use the exchange. We will know come October


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## CPNY (Sep 4, 2022)

Red elephant said:


> I enjoy beach hopping the beaches  are all different and not easy to compare to other islands .  We go to a different beach every other day. Some have beach bars and others don’t . Hiking to the beach. The restaurant scene is amazing and  we shop in STT. Take the Westin cruise over shop have dinner and come back. Catamaran cruises to BVI but you can do that in STT. The taxi service at WSJ is well set up.
> you have to island hop to get that in most islands or drive longer distances and they are not part of the US.
> Barbados is another island we’re I love beach hopping they even have a surfing side.


I feel that Marriott owners are blissfully unaware of anything outside of Marriott. Since there is no Marriott on St John, they think it’s just another STT. Since the Marriott is on STT, Why bother staying on St. John? WSJ beats MFC any day.


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## CPNY (Sep 5, 2022)

Is WSJ a better value in the VSN or in the Abound exchange? I’m seeing that most Caribbean locations seem to be “undervalued” compared to Hawaii. This is great for us east coasters who prefer Caribbean travel over Hawaii


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## Eric B (Sep 5, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Is WSJ a better value in the VSN or in the Abound exchange? I’m seeing that most Caribbean locations seem to be “undervalued” compared to Hawaii. This is great for us east coasters who prefer Caribbean travel over Hawaii



Depends on your perspective.  In either the $ per point is high and renting is a better return for the owner when not using.  I believe there are a fair number of weeks that Marriott owns now because of defaults, etc., which is where inventory will more likely come from in either VSN or Abound.


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## timsi (Sep 5, 2022)

Marriott will probably delay putting any good inventory in Abound if they can keep it and rent it. They may first dump the VOIs that have low rental value since those are dead weight for them.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 5, 2022)

timsi said:


> Marriott will probably delay putting any good inventory in Abound if they can keep it and rent it. They may first dump the VOIs that have low rental value since those are dead weight for them.


While Marriott Vacations makes significant revenue from rentals, they make a bigger return on investment when they sell points. Renting carries risk, where once inventory sold the risk is low.


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## timsi (Sep 5, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> While Marriott Vacations makes significant revenue from rentals, they make a bigger return on investment when they sell points. Renting carries risk, where once inventory sold the risk is low.


150 million dollars in rental revenue last quarter has to come from somewhere though, and I do not think Marriott has any incentive to rush to put in the trust the prime VOIS like the Westin Maui that they ROFR, as long as those can be rented for a very nice profit. Have they put any in the Abound trust yet?


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## SGould (Sep 5, 2022)

timsi said:


> 150 million dollars in rental revenue last quarter has to come from somewhere though, and I do not think Marriott has any incentive to rush to put in the trust the prime VOIS like the Westin Maui that they ROFR, as long as those can be rented for a very nice profit. Have they put any in the Abound trust yet?


Is some of the rental income from the resort hotels the acquired with ILG?  They still own the Sheraton Kauai resort hotel side and it wasn’t until last month that they sold the Westin Puerto Vallarta.  Would the revenue from those hotels be rental income?  I have no idea!


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## TravelTime (Sep 5, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I feel that Marriott owners are blissfully unaware of anything outside of Marriott. Since there is no Marriott on St John, they think it’s just another STT. Since the Marriott is on STT, Why bother staying on St. John? WSJ beats MFC any day.



I do not understand why you are always so negative about Marriott owners. Do you really think Marriott owners are snobs or segregationalists like you have said in other posts? Or are you kidding or joking?

I would argue that timeshare owners of any brand are not snobs. I keep my ownership a secret since it is an embarrassment. Marriott is just a so-so brand and nothing fancy at all. Neither Marriott or Westin are anything to brag about. When the few people I have told ask me how much I spent to join the timeshare systems, even though I bought resale, they are astounded and think I am an idiot. LOL 

But let’s just play devil’s advocate for a moment. If any brand is a snob, it would be Westin owners. I own both so I feel like I can speak the truth about what I read on these threads. For some reason, Westin owners think Westin is superior because the studios have a slightly better kitchenette and a W/D. But the 1 and 2 bedrooms with Westin and Marriott are more or less identical. I would not measure being better or worse as a brand by a studio’s features.


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## timsi (Sep 5, 2022)

SGould said:


> Is some of the rental income from the resort hotels the acquired with ILG?  They still own the Sheraton Kauai resort hotel side and it wasn’t until last month that they sold the Westin Puerto Vallarta.  Would the revenue from those hotels be rental income?  I have no idea!


They rented over 550,000 keys (nights) last quarter and the number excludes those occupied through the use of plus points and preview stays.  I am not sure how many rooms the two resorts have but they are probably a drop in the bucket. We will see the third quarter; it may be even higher since it includes the summer vacation.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 5, 2022)

timsi said:


> 150 million dollars in rental revenue last quarter has to come from somewhere though, and I do not think Marriott has any incentive to rush to put in the trust the prime VOIS like the Westin Maui that they ROFR, as long as those can be rented for a very nice profit. Have they put any in the Abound trust yet?


I did say it was significant revenue, but if you compare the margins and total revenue on rentals vs retail contracts, retail timeshare contracts win out. Why sell timeshare at all if running a hotel operation makes them more money?


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## CPNY (Sep 6, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I do not understand why you are always so negative about Marriott owners. Do you really think Marriott owners are snobs or segregationalists like you have said in other posts? Or are you kidding or joking?



yes and no. I was told by several Marriott employees that Marriott owners consider themselves Marriott snobs.


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## GregT (Sep 6, 2022)

CPNY said:


> I wish they would hold some back to be released throughout the year. Imagine a second wave of high demand resorts 6 months out that would make the program a huge draw for some.


They do this for Ritz properties.  They release at 13 months and then again at 6 months.  I don't think there is a release at 12 months.

Best,

Greg


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## Veritoalsol (Sep 6, 2022)

Pardon my ignorance- but i have no idea on how to figure out how much Club points I would be eligible for based on my VOIs/SOs ... does anyone know where to find that?


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## kozykritter (Sep 6, 2022)

Veritoalsol said:


> Pardon my ignorance- but i have no idea on how to figure out how much Club points I would be eligible for based on my VOIs/SOs ... does anyone know where to find that?


You can check this spreadsheet with amounts owners reported after sales presentations and see if there is a value for your ownership. There has been no official info given out and likely we won't get any until Abound launches in late October.









						Vistana to Abound Point Conversion Tracker
					

I have started to create a conversion tracker to keep track of the amount of points allocaetd to each VOI. I know everything right now is still speculation or information gleaned from attending a sales presentation, but at some point I suspect we will get official numbers. For now we can start...




					tugbbs.com


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## daviator (Sep 6, 2022)

CPNY said:


> yes and no. I was told by several Marriott employees that Marriott owners consider themselves Marriott snobs.


I have heard that too, and it always makes me laugh, because (in my opinion) Marriott has an inferior product and there is nothing to be snobbish about.  It's like bragging that you refuse to eat at any restaurant except Denny's because it's the best.

But I guess that makes me a Westin snob.  There are a whole bunch of very valid reasons why I have never bought into the Marriott program.  They aren't bad properties, I've stayed at a number of them (I have family who owns in MVC) but I don't think they're as good as our properties.

So I hope that Abound and the MVW acquisition doesn't eventually result in the Westin properties devolving to the level of the Marriott properties.  I know that's probably going to happen but I hope it won't.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 6, 2022)

CPNY said:


> yes and no. I was told by several Marriott employees that Marriott owners consider themselves Marriott snobs.



Which "Marriott employees" told you that? Were they sales reps trying to sell you on Marriott? If so, consider the source!


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## vacationtime1 (Sep 6, 2022)

daviator said:


> I have heard that too, and it always makes me laugh, because (in my opinion) Marriott has an inferior product and there is nothing to be snobbish about.  It's like bragging that you refuse to eat at any restaurant except Denny's because it's the best.
> 
> But I guess that makes me a Westin snob.  There are a whole bunch of very valid reasons why I have never bought into the Marriott program.  They aren't bad properties, I've stayed at a number of them (I have family who owns in MVC) but I don't think they're as good as our properties.
> 
> So I hope that Abound and the MVW acquisition doesn't eventually result in the Westin properties devolving to the level of the Marriott properties.  I know that's probably going to happen but I hope it won't.


+1 -- although I think Marriott is a lot better than Denny's.

This will be my test of decreasing quality:  Westin timeshares currently provide bathrobes upon request.  Marriott timeshares do not (they used to, at least at Waiohai).  Let's see how long it takes for the "bathrobe benefit" to be removed at the Westin properties.


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## TravelTime (Sep 6, 2022)

CPNY said:


> yes and no. I was told by several Marriott employees that Marriott owners consider themselves Marriott snobs.



That is coming from Marriott employees. It’s a really inaccurate and dumb comment. Marriott is a mass market brand not an upscale or exclusive brand. I sort of get it if they were talking about the St Regis and Ritz Carlton hotel guests who pay for their stays or the fractional owners (not timeshare guests since they get into these resorts for pennies on the dollar).

Calling someone else a snob or another implied derogatory term says more about that person’s insecurities actually. Those same employees would say the same thing if they worked for Westin. Marriott and Westin timeshares are really equivalent and the same consumer market. Maybe those employees feels burnt out and beat up by their jobs and should get new jobs. I certainly hope these people are not on the customer service side of the business. It makes me think poorly of Marriott employees who are insulting their own guests. Who says things like this to one guest about their other guests anyway?


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## sharr7 (Sep 6, 2022)

I'm having deja vu with this snob discussion again...

Can we just say that some small number of both Marriott and Vistana people think their brand is the best and refuse to consider staying at the other brand? And it's mostly harmless unless they're on these boards/socials outright dumping on entire portfolios or people's vacation choices. 

And there's people who PREFER one over the other for various legitimate reasons and may even call themselves a "snob" in a lighthearted way to let one know their preferences because it's really not that derogatory of a word as it's mostly used today. Like I call myself a beer snob sometimes; maybe others call me that too. I like higher quality beers. I don't care what anyone else drinks. It's a funny thing to say. Saying beer (MVC STT) snobs wont even want to try this great new wine (VSN STJ) it just a harmless overgeneralization but also it's likely partially true, even if it's not for you in particular. 

Finally it shouldn't be shocking or offensive that a Marriott salesperson would tell a potential customer that Marriott owners love their ownerships so much to the point where some consider themselves Marriott snobs in that they've tried MVC and they love it and see no need to own anything else. Makes a customer feel like they're making a smart choice, buying the best timeshare alternative. No doubt people like that exist, it's probably one of the few times they DIDN'T lie!

Anyway, off to have a fancy beer.


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## timsi (Sep 6, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> I did say it was significant revenue, but if you compare the margins and total revenue on rentals vs retail contracts, retail timeshare contracts win out. Why sell timeshare at all if running a hotel operation makes them more money?


In general I agree and we are not far apart. I was just saying that if Marriott acquires two different VOIs through foreclosure,  ROFR or buy back, and must only transfer one to the Abound trust, it makes sense to transfer first the one that brings them less profit (lower season, not a prime resort, high maintenance fees relative to the value etc), if they can rent the other one for a nice profit.  Everything else being equal, they would rather transfer to the trust Princeville than Maui. Marriott only needs to transfer to the Abound trust the number of points they anticipate selling in the next few months. They can always transfer more if the trust is running low. I agree with you, they do not want to keep on their books too much either, so they probably keep what they think they can rent profitably and well above their cost of capital. You would expect they perfected this to a science over the years. 

Sales are very profitable because the developer can acquire inventory at such a low price, almost zero in same cases, and because the inventory can be rented and is not an overall cost to maintain. If they had the inventory costs of a typical real estate developer, they would have the same margins as everyone else. Regardless, they sell as much as they can and there is always a limit and revenue from the other businesses is welcome. 
They describe their business as vacation ownership, exchange, rental and resort and property management so the fact that the rentals are part of their business model should not be controversial. By the way, the resorts are clearly not in the rental business, testimony being the minuscule rental revenue they get even if bad debt is often hundreds of thousands of dollars annually (according to the resort budgets). They just do not seem very lucky in renting the units that owe money to the association.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 6, 2022)

timsi said:


> In general I agree and we are not far apart. I was just saying that if Marriott acquires two different VOIs through foreclosure,  ROFR or buy back, and must only transfer one to the Abound trust, it makes sense to transfer first the one that brings them less profit (lower season, not a prime resort, high maintenance fees relative to the value etc), if they can rent the other one for a nice profit.  Everything else being equal, they would rather transfer to the trust Princeville than Maui. Marriott only needs to transfer to the Abound trust the number of points they anticipate selling in the next few months. They can always transfer more if the trust is running low. I agree with you, they do not want to keep on their books too much either, so they probably keep what they think they can rent profitably and well above their cost of capital. You would expect they perfected this to a science over the years.
> 
> Sales are very profitable because the developer can acquire inventory at such a low price, almost zero in same cases, and because the inventory can be rented and is not an overall cost to maintain. If they had the inventory costs of a typical real estate developer, they would have the same margins as everyone else. Regardless, they sell as much as they can and there is always a limit and revenue from the other businesses is welcome.
> They describe their business as vacation ownership, exchange, rental and resort and property management so the fact that the rentals are part of their business model should not be controversial. By the way, the resorts are clearly not in the rental business, testimony being the minuscule rental revenue they get even if bad debt is often hundreds of thousands of dollars annually (according to the resort budgets). They just do not seem very lucky in renting the units that owe money to the association.


Marriott is also able to rent out unsold trust inventory. So they can just as easily convey the week to the trust and still rent out high demand inventory.


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## timsi (Sep 6, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott is also able to rent out unsold trust inventory. So they can just as easily convey the week to the trust and still rent out high demand inventory.


But isn't the trust a blend of resorts and seasons so the rental revenue and profit would be a reflection of the mix? On the other hand, if they are selective and keep  Maui and other highly profitable deeds on their books, I assume they make more money.


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## CPNY (Sep 6, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> That is coming from Marriott employees. It’s a really inaccurate and dumb comment. Marriott is a mass market brand not an upscale or exclusive brand. I sort of get it if they were talking about the St Regis and Ritz Carlton hotel guests who pay for their stays or the fractional owners (not timeshare guests since they get into these resorts for pennies on the dollar).
> 
> Calling someone else a snob or another implied derogatory term says more about that person’s insecurities actually. Those same employees would say the same thing if they worked for Westin. Marriott and Westin timeshares are really equivalent and the same consumer market. Maybe those employees feels burnt out and beat up by their jobs and should get new jobs. I certainly hope these people are not on the customer service side of the business. It makes me think poorly of Marriott employees who are insulting their own guests. Who says things like this to one guest about their other guests anyway?


They said it with pride, they weren’t putting Marriott owners down. They were portraying that “the Marriott clientele prides themselves on being Marriott snobs, they expect a certain level of resort”. I found it odd


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## TravelTime (Sep 6, 2022)

CPNY said:


> They said it with pride, they weren’t putting Marriott owners down. They were portraying that “the Marriott clientele prides themselves on being Marriott snobs, they expect a certain level of resort”. I found it odd



Maybe they thought you were a snob and would like to hang out with others of superior social class. LOL


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## JIMinNC (Sep 6, 2022)

timsi said:


> But isn't the trust a blend of resorts and seasons so the rental revenue and profit would be a reflection of the mix? On the other hand, if they are selective and keep  Maui and other highly profitable deeds on their books, I assume they make more money.



Yes, but for rental purposes, that Maui week rents for the same $$$$ regardless of whether the accountants have it recorded as real estate owned by Marriott Vacations Worldwide or as real estate owned by the Trust. Either way, either MVW or the MVC Trust has to pay the maintenance fee and the rental revenue is the same, so for the bottom line impact, it doesn't seem to matter which entity carries it on their books.


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## timsi (Sep 6, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Yes, but for rental purposes, that Maui week rents for the same $$$$ regardless of whether the accountants have it recorded as real estate owned by Marriott Vacations Worldwide or as real estate owned by the Trust. Either way, either MVW or the MVC Trust has to pay the maintenance fee and the rental revenue is the same, so for the bottom line impact, it doesn't seem to matter which entity carries it on their books.



If Marriott owns points in the trust (with higher MF/point than Westin Maui so less profitable), can they choose and pick the best weeks/resorts to rent out OR it's the blend of resorts and seasons found in the MVC trust?  I think most people here, including you, believe the latter to be true in which case the margins would not be similar. I have been told many times that Marriott would not do the former since it would disadvantage the individual owners.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 6, 2022)

timsi said:


> If Marriott owns points in the trust (with higher MF/point than Westin Maui so less profitable), can they choose and pick the best weeks/resorts to rent out OR it's the blend of resorts and seasons found in the MVC trust?  I think most people here, including you, believe the latter to be true in which case the margins would not be similar. I have been told many times that Marriott would not do the former since it would disadvantage the individual owners.



I have no idea what they would or would not do from an inventory management standpoint, but what I'm saying is the P&L aspect doesn't really change regardless of where the week is owned within Marriott. Think of these two scenarios:

1). If they choose to keep it out of the Trust, but put it on the MVW corporate books and then rent it, then they must pay the MF, and then they get the rental $$$$ (and whatever margin that generates). In that scenario it's obviously not available in the Trust for anyone to book.

2.) If do they choose to put it in the Trust, but then put in in their "unsold Trust inventory rental bucket" and rent it out instead of making it available for Abound bookings, then they get the exact same rental $$$ and pay the exact same MF (and thus earn the same margin on that specific week). It's still not available for anyone in Abound to book, that that result is the same as #1.

Under both scenarios, the inability for Abound members to book it and the revenue/cost/margin for Marriott is exactly the same for that week. The result is the same on the Marriott bottom line. It is just an internal accounting difference.

So, if they decide they want to *rent* that Maui week, it doesn't matter whether it's on the corporate books or the Trust books.


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## timsi (Sep 7, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I have no idea what they would or would not do from an inventory management standpoint, but what I'm saying is the P&L aspect doesn't really change regardless of where the week is owned within Marriott. Think of these two scenarios:
> 
> 1). If they choose to keep it out of the Trust, but put it on the MVW corporate books and then rent it, then they must pay the MF, and then they get the rental $$$$ (and whatever margin that generates). In that scenario it's obviously not available in the Trust for anyone to book.
> 
> ...




Since 1 is pretty straightforward, I have a couple of questions related to 2) :

- If they put a week in the trust, do they retain control of the week and benefit from the rental income or it belongs to the trust once transferred? I assume that the week no longer belongs to Marriott (the company) and they receive a number of trust points instead.

- What keeps the other owners from booking it if it is a desirable week? I do not know why you assume that a valuable week will end up in the "unsold Trust inventory rental bucket"  since Maui would be snapped right away by other owners. Even if it is not booked by owners, I assume that if the week is rented, the revenue belongs to the trust, not to Marriott and Marriott would only benefit proportional to the trust units they own. 

To me it still looks like a no brainer to dump the worst weeks in the trust first and hold onto the best ones since they bring a nice profit. Maybe you will find another explanation why they did not put Westin Maui in the trust yet, even if we know they have acquired a few units through ROFR


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## JIMinNC (Sep 7, 2022)

timsi said:


> - If they put a week in the trust, do they retain control of the week and benefit from the rental income or it belongs to the trust once transferred? I assume that the week no longer belongs to Marriott (the company) and they receive a number of trust points instead.



Yes, absolutely they retain control of the week and benefit from rental income. As a Trust owner, I get the annual budget for the MVC Trust Owners Association and the revenue line items are only assessments (maintenance fees/dues), investment income, and late fees. No rental income. The Program T&Cs provide for the Program Manager to have the right to rent Trust inventory not required to satisfy trust owner use, just as the Program Manager had the right before trusts existed to rent unsold weeks. The way I think of it is like this - and I'm going to use a simplistic example since I don't know the true size of the Trust. Each beneficial interest in the trust represents 250 points. So, lets say MVC had deeded over weeks representing 100,000,000 points. That's 400,000 beneficial interests in the Trust. Let's say 300,000 of those beneficial interest have been sold to owners. Marriott is required to make sure that they leave enough bookable inventory in the Trust to satisfy the requests for the 75,000,000 points represented by those 300,000 sold interests. Marriott can then do with the other 100,000 interests as they wish - rent on marriott.com, use for promo packages, etc. Which actual weeks they pick for their rental bucket is up to them.



> - What keeps the other owners from booking it if it is a desirable week? I do not know why you assume that a valuable week will end up in the "unsold Trust inventory rental bucket"  since Maui would be snapped right away by other owners. Even if it is not booked by owners, I assume that if the week is rented, the revenue belongs to the trust, not to Marriott and Marriott would only benefit proportional to the trust units they own.


I've always assumed that what keeps other owners from snapping those up is Marriott has used their rights under the Trust and Program agreements that allow them to _"forecast anticipated reservations and use of the Accommodations and is authorized to demand balance, reserve, deposit, or rent the Accommodations for the purpose of facilitating the use or future use of the Accommodations or other benefits made available to Members through the Program in its sole discretion."_ So they allocate some portion to rentals, just as in the old weeks days, they rented unsold weeks. Remember, with floating weeks, they had to pick which individual weeks they rented then too, so could have picked a mix of low demand and high demand weeks. But that income does not go to the Trust, it goes to the Program Manager (Marriott).



> To me it still looks like a no brainer to dump the worst weeks in the trust first and hold onto the best ones since they bring a nice profit. Maybe you will find another explanation why they did not put Westin Maui in the trust yet, even if we know they have acquired a few units through ROFR



The first Vistana stuff they have put in would certainly seem to qualify as lesser demand inventory for sure, we don't really know the exact source of those weeks, but it is not the cream of the Vistana crop for sure. Supposedly all of the ROFR reacquired inventory eventually goes into the Trust, but we don't know how long they might hold it on the corporate books as "Other Real Estate" before doing so. They only need to deed enough stuff over to the Trust to ensure that the Trust doesn't run out of points to sell, so they very well may indeed be inclined to keep the more valuable rental weeks on their books longer than the less valuable stuff. They can rent it either place for the same exact $$$/margin, but once it goes into the Trust, I suspect they need to factor in owner demand for Maui weeks in deciding whether to rent it or not. As long as it's on their books, they can do with it as they wish - they ROFR'd it, so it's theirs, and if they don't want to put it into the Trust right away, they don't have to.

My earlier point was simply, just because they put it in the Trust doesn't mean they still can't rent it just like when it's on the corporate books, but once it's in the Trust, I suspect they should consider owner demand before deciding whether to rent that Maui week or make it available to owners. Until it's in the Trust, they can do with it as they wish.

Eventually, they should put some of the higher value Vistana inventory into the Trust for sure if they want Abound to be well-received on the MVC side. They certainly have a lot of quality MVC weeks in the Trust now thanks to ROFR and other repurchases, so I'm not sure why they eventually wouldn't do the same with Vistana stuff.


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## timsi (Sep 7, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Yes, absolutely they retain control of the week and benefit from rental income. As a Trust owner, I get the annual budget for the MVC Trust Owners Association and the revenue line items are only assessments (maintenance fees/dues), investment income, and late fees. No rental income. The Program T&Cs provide for the Program Manager to have the right to rent Trust inventory not required to satisfy trust owner use, just as the Program Manager had the right before trusts existed to rent unsold weeks. The way I think of it is like this - and I'm going to use a simplistic example since I don't know the true size of the Trust. Each beneficial interest in the trust represents 250 points. So, lets say MVC had deeded over weeks representing 100,000,000 points. That's 400,000 beneficial interests in the Trust. Let's say 300,000 of those beneficial interest have been sold to owners. Marriott is required to make sure that they leave enough bookable inventory in the Trust to satisfy the requests for the 75,000,000 points represented by those 300,000 sold interests. Marriott can then do with the other 100,000 interests as they wish - rent on marriott.com, use for promo packages, etc. Which actual weeks they pick for their rental bucket is up to them.
> 
> 
> I've always assumed that what keeps other owners from snapping those up is Marriott has used their rights under the Trust and Program agreements that allow them to _"forecast anticipated reservations and use of the Accommodations and is authorized to demand balance, reserve, deposit, or rent the Accommodations for the purpose of facilitating the use or future use of the Accommodations or other benefits made available to Members through the Program in its sole discretion."_ So they allocate some portion to rentals, just as in the old weeks days, they rented unsold weeks. Remember, with floating weeks, they had to pick which individual weeks they rented then too, so could have picked a mix of low demand and high demand weeks. But that income does not go to the Trust, it goes to the Program Manager (Marriott).
> ...


Thank you for the detailed explanation. The narrow path you offer is theoretically possible but complicated. You also think that the owners should have the first crack and I am not even sure the possibility you described would be a fair practice for a number of reasons so why would they do that? Marriott has a much better alternative, they can just hold onto the prime VOIs for as long as they can, and this is what they seem to be doing. If you had a chance to look at the entirety of the portfolio they own, do you frankly believe that it would have a composition similar to the one you find in the trust? Since they don't break any rule, what keeps them from owning the cream of the crop?

Ideally, the MVC trust should still have some rental revenue for the units that are not booked by owners or in foreclosure and for which the trust covers the MF. Just because those units can be rented and the Program Manager is the intermediary, it does not have to mean that the trust should get nothing. Some Vistana resorts (maybe all?) have agreements with the Program Manager, the resorts get 25% of the rental proceeds. How generous of the Program Manager! Any Tugger who offers 50%?  Remember, the MF are already paid by the Association. If the MVC trust gets nothing from the Program Manager, the trust owners have an even worse deal than the Vistana owners (and another reason for Marriott to push Abound). Somehow the Lagunamar Owners Association has a very low annual revenue in the good years and zero in the others. Maybe those units consistently don’t rent, or maybe the units are usually rented through the heavily discounted sales tour packages (and the Association gets 25% of an already low price).


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## CPNY (Sep 7, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Maybe they thought you were a snob and would like to hang out with others of superior social class. LOL


Sounds right to me lol


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## JIMinNC (Sep 7, 2022)

timsi said:


> Thank you for the detailed explanation. The narrow path you offer is theoretically possible but complicated. You also think that the owners should have the first crack and I am not even sure the possibility you described would be a fair practice for a number of reasons so why would they do that? Marriott has a much better alternative, they can just hold onto the prime VOIs for as long as they can, and this is what they seem to be doing. If you had a chance to look at the entirety of the portfolio they own, do you frankly believe that it would have a composition similar to the one you find in the trust? Since they don't break any rule, what keeps them from owning the cream of the crop?


I think your supposition may be totally correct, and they may be more inclined to keep higher value rental inventory out of the Trust longer after reacquisition than less lucrative intervals. Until the week goes into the Trust, they aren't required to consider owner demand for that week. I'm confident some of the "better stuff" from the Vistana side will eventually make their way into the Trust since there is a lot of attractive MVC inventory in the Trust. No reason to treat Vistana differently. While they have some incentive to rent for rental revenue, they also have a huge incentive to meet owner demand in the Trust/Exchange, since happy owners buy more Points. Remember, 60-70% of their Vacation Ownership Sales come from existing owners, and sales of VOIs are by far the largest profit generator for their shareholders.

I suspect that the initial Trust conveyances that were discovered last month were some of the reacquired intervals that had been accumulated since they quit conveying stuff to the Flex Trusts given those are being sunset from an active sales perspective. The most notable absences are WKV, WKORV, and WSJ. It will be interesting to see when some of those get conveyed.

I looked back at the Trust conveyances thread on the MVC Board, and the initial conveyance in 6/2010 was 42 million points. Within a year, the Trust had doubled and by 6/2015 it was up to 331 million points. But that was during a time when MVC was still adding new resorts. The initial load of Vistana looks like 7 million points. Much smaller and will grow more slowly since it will only be fed by re-acquired inventory.



> Ideally, the MVC trust should still have some rental revenue for the units that are not booked by owners or in foreclosure and for which the trust covers the MF. Just because those units can be rented and the Program Manager is the intermediary, it does not have to mean that the trust should get nothing. Some Vistana resorts (maybe all?) have agreements with the Program Manager, the resorts get 25% of the rental proceeds. How generous of the Program Manager! Any Tugger who offers 50%?  Remember, the MF are already paid by the Association. If the MVC trust gets nothing from the Program Manager, the trust owners have an even worse deal than the Vistana owners (and another reason for Marriott to push Abound). Somehow the Lagunamar Owners Association has a very low annual revenue in the good years and zero in the others. Maybe those units consistently don’t rent, or maybe the units are usually rented through the heavily discounted sales tour packages (and the Association gets 25% of an already low price).



While the Trust does pay the resort owners associations for the annual MF for weeks inside the Trust, they aren't entitled to any rental revenue from unsold inventory because Marriott Vacations Worldwide is responsible for paying the Annual Assessment for any unsold Trust Beneficial Interests, just like any other Trust Owner. As a result, MVW is entitled to the rental revenue. Marriott conveys certain weeks they acquire to the Trust, and they thus become the owners of the Trust Beneficial Interests represented by those conveyed weeks. Until those interests are sold, MVW gets to vote those Beneficial Interests in any matter that comes before the Owners Association and they also must pay the Annual Assessments until those Beneficial Interests are sold to a new owner.

Here is the 2022 Trust Budget, summarized at a high level:

*REVENUES*
Assessments: $411.2 million
Interest Income: $4.7 million
Late Fees: $1.2 million
Surplus Return: $0.3 million

*Total Revenues: $ 417.3 million

EXPENSES*
Component Expenses $349.4 million
Trust Administration Expenses $67.9 million

*Total Expenses: $ 417.3 million*

The "Component Expenses" are the maintenance fees the Trust pays to resort owners associations for all intervals that have been conveyed into the Trust. The "Assessments" are $156.99 per Beneficial Interest, with Owners paying the assessment for all sold interests ($0.63/point) and Marriott Vacations Worldwide paying the same $156.99/interest for all unsold Beneficial Interests. Since MVW is paying the fees to the Trust for all unsold interests, they keep any revenue gained from renting or otherwise using those unsold Beneficial Interests, just as regular Trust Owners keep any revenue earned by renting their Trust Points or renting reservations made with their Trust Points.

I also looked on the budgets for the three MVC resorts we own weeks at, and there is no rental revenue sharing from MVW to the owners associations. Maintenance fees represent about 98% of the revenue for the Owners Association (the other 2% is mainly interest income and late fees), offset by resort operating expenses. If Vistana has agreements to receive a cut of the rental revenue as you stated, then MVW will have to honor that. Does "rental income" show up as a line item in each Vistana resort's budget?

*Summary*
So, bottom line, and back to the original point that started in post #126, Marriott obviously picks and chooses which reacquired weeks to hold on their books and which to put into the Trust. They can rent those weeks regardless of whether they are inside or outside of the Trust and the revenue/expenses/margins are essentially the same at the corporate level for MVW regardless of where those weeks "live" (i.e. - either in the Trust or directly on MVW's books). They don't directly "make more money" on a week rented from their books versus one of the same resort/season/size rented from the Trust. On the other hand, a high demand week that has already been conveyed to the Trust may be needed for owner bookings, meaning they can't rent it any more. So, if they want to make sure they keep a specific high-value week for rental, they should (and probably do) keep it on their books and not subject it to whatever inventory allocations happen within the Trust. But given that they also have a significant interest in selling more VOIs to happy owners, at some point, they will need to start seeding some better Vistana inventory into the Trust than they have so far.


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## timsi (Sep 7, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I think your supposition may be totally correct, and they may be more inclined to keep higher value rental inventory out of the Trust longer after reacquisition than less lucrative intervals. Until the week goes into the Trust, they aren't required to consider owner demand for that week. I'm confident some of the "better stuff" from the Vistana side will eventually make their way into the Trust since there is a lot of attractive MVC inventory in the Trust. No reason to treat Vistana differently. While they have some incentive to rent for rental revenue, they also have a huge incentive to meet owner demand in the Trust/Exchange, since happy owners buy more Points. Remember, 60-70% of their Vacation Ownership Sales come from existing owners, and sales of VOIs are by far the largest profit generator for their shareholders.
> 
> I suspect that the initial Trust conveyances that were discovered last month were some of the reacquired intervals that had been accumulated since they quit conveying stuff to the Flex Trusts given those are being sunset from an active sales perspective. The most notable absences are WKV, WKORV, and WSJ. It will be interesting to see when some of those get conveyed.
> 
> ...


I will respond to your summary first, because we see it very differently. 

Your correctly stated that inside the trust they can only make the rental revenue of the prime week in discussion if they can block the other owners from seeing it and booking it. But that should not happen, I think we both agree on that.  If that's the case, it is not the same thing owning a prime VOI in the trust vs keeping it outside the trust where they own it 100 % and do what they please. If they manage to book a good week at midnight of course


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## JIMinNC (Sep 7, 2022)

timsi said:


> I will respond to your summary first, because we see it very differently.
> 
> Your correctly stated that inside the trust they can only make the rental revenue of the prime week in discussion if they can block the other owners from seeing it and booking it. But that should not happen, I think we both agree on that.  If that's the case, it is not the same thing owning a prime VOI in the trust vs keeping it outside the trust where they own it 100 % and do what they please. If they manage to book a good week at midnight of course



I don't think we see it differently at all. They certainly have more flexibility to do as they wish with a prime VOI held outside of the Trust versus one that has been conveyed to the Trust. Once inside the Trust they have to consider what owner demand will be for that interval before deciding to include it in the Trust-held intervals that they might try to rent. 

The above doesn't mean they will never convey desirable interests to the Trust, however, since they also have an interest in owners getting successful high value reservations to help them sell more Points to presumable happy owners. They need some of both.


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## timsi (Sep 7, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> I don't think we see it differently at all. They certainly have more flexibility to do as they wish with a prime VOI held outside of the Trust versus one that has been conveyed to the Trust. Once inside the Trust they have to consider what owner demand will be for that interval before deciding to include it in the Trust-held intervals that they might try to rent.
> 
> The above doesn't mean they will never convey desirable interests to the Trust, however, since they also have an interest in owners getting successful high value reservations to help them sell more Points to presumable happy owners. They need some of both.


You know a lot more about this than I do. At a very rudimentary level, my understanding is that once they conveyed timeshare units to the trust, they no longer own those units, the trust does. This means that once in the trust, the new units will function like all the other units, based on the rules of the trust (and probably made available to all owners). They just cant's say that they conveyed 10 units at 5 different resorts, but they will continue to use 2, independent of the control of the trust,  and make available to the owners the other 8. 

My understanding is also that when they convey those units, they  automatically increase the number of trust units they can sell based on the point value of the conveyed units. Just because they can sell those trust points , I do not think they retain any ownership (or other type of control the way you suggest) to those units or any other units they have conveyed in the past. The "unsold inventory" must be points not units.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 7, 2022)

timsi said:


> You know a lot more about this than I do. At a very rudimentary level, my understanding is that once they conveyed timeshare units to the trust, they no longer own those units, the trust does. This means that once in the trust, the new units will function like all the other units, based on the rules of the trust (and probably made available to all owners). They just cant's say that they conveyed 10 units at 5 different resorts, but they will continue to use 2, independent of the control of the trust,  and make available to the owners the other 8.
> 
> My understanding is also that when they convey those units, they  automatically increase the number of trust units they can sell based on the point value of the conveyed units. Just because they can sell those trust points , I do not think they retain any ownership (or other type of control the way you suggest) to those units or any other units they have conveyed in the past. The "unsold inventory" must be points not units.



Think of it this way - Let's say MVW owns 10 weeks they reacquired through ROFR. Let's say each week is worth 4,000 Points, so that represents a total of 40,000 Points. If they convey all 10 weeks to the Trust, that adds 160 new Beneficial Interests to the Trust (250 points per BI). Each BI comes with a unique identifier that is noted and recorded on the deed and transfers to a new owner whenever that BI is sold/resold. (For example, E32938, E32939, BP9808, BP9809 are some of the BIs we own.)

Once inside the Trust, the Trust is obligated to pay the annual maintenance fees to the HOA for each of those 10 conveyed weeks (the "Component Expenses" shown in my numbers a couple posts up). Then, in order for the Trust to be able to meet that obligation to each resort HOA plus the Trust's own administrative costs, each Beneficial Interest owner in the Trust must pay an annual Assessment, which for 2022 is $156.99 per interest ($0.63/Point). So, someone has to be responsible for paying that $156.99/BI to the Trust Owners Association for *every* BI in the Trust in order for the Trust to be whole and meet its obligations to the resort HOAs. Owners like me pay for each BI we own. (For example, we own 19 Beneficial Interests in the Trust and paid an annual Assessment of $2,982.81 for 2022). But what about unsold BIs like those 160 new Beneficial Interests that resulted from those 10 reacquired weeks in my example above? Who pays the Trust Assessment for those? The answer should be Marriott Vacations Worldwide, because someone has to pay the Trust for those BIs until they are sold to a buyer. Without that, the Trust Owners Association would not be whole and would be unable to meet its obligation to the resort HOAs. The owner of each BI also gets to vote each BI in the annual meeting of Trust Owner Association, so MVW also holds those voting rights until they sell that particular BI to a buyer like me.

So whenever the Trust has unsold Beneficial Interests, that means it has more inventory of underlying bookable nights/weeks than Owners to book them. So what happens to that unneeded inventory? I believe that the Program Terms & Conditions give MVW the right to rent any excess inventory in the Trust and use those proceeds to offset their Assessment costs for the BIs that have not been sold. They should also be able to use them for promo packages or put them into the MVC Exchange (thus foregoing rental revenue), as they have told investors they did to help deal with the Points extensions, etc. that they offered to soften the blow of the pandemic. How they decide which specific nights/weeks to use in these alternative ways is part of the inventory allocation "black box" that we have no insight into.

All of the above does not mean they can't also hold inventory for rental outside of the Trust - and they most certainly do that - the point is simply that they can *also *choose to rent excess inventory that lives in the Trust. They just should be careful in doing that to choose inventory not needed for owner reservations.

That's how I've always understood it to work and I believe other TUGgers who understand the workings of the MVW program also understand it more-or-less that same way. Since @dioxide45 has sort of been our Marriott Trust guru for the last 12 years, maybe he can chime in to confirm whether or not I'm in the ballpark on how this all works.


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## timsi (Sep 7, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Think of it this way - Let's say MVW owns 10 weeks they reacquired through ROFR. Let's say each week is worth 4,000 Points, so that represents a total of 40,000 Points. If they convey all 10 weeks to the Trust, that adds 160 new Beneficial Interests to the Trust (250 points per BI). Each BI comes with a unique identifier that is noted and recorded on the deed and transfers to a new owner whenever that BI is sold/resold. (For example, E32938, E32939, BP9808, BP9809 are some of the BIs we own.)
> 
> Once inside the Trust, the Trust is obligated to pay the annual maintenance fees to the HOA for each of those 10 conveyed weeks (the "Component Expenses" shown in my numbers a couple posts up). Then, in order for the Trust to be able to meet that obligation to each resort HOA plus the Trust's own administrative costs, each Beneficial Interest owner in the Trust must pay an annual Assessment, which for 2022 is $156.99 per interest ($0.63/Point). So, someone has to be responsible for paying that $156.99/BI to the Trust Owners Association for *every* BI in the Trust in order for the Trust to be whole and meet its obligations to the resort HOAs. Owners like me pay for each BI we own. (For example, we own 19 Beneficial Interests in the Trust and paid an annual Assessment of $2,982.81 for 2022). But what about unsold BIs like those 160 new Beneficial Interests that resulted from those 10 reacquired weeks in my example above? Who pays the Trust Assessment for those? The answer should be Marriott Vacations Worldwide, because someone has to pay the Trust for those BIs until they are sold to a buyer. Without that, the Trust Owners Association would not be whole and would be unable to meet its obligation to the resort HOAs. The owner of each BI also gets to vote each BI in the annual meeting of Trust Owner Association, so MVW also holds those voting rights until they sell that particular BI to a buyer like me.
> 
> ...


All I can say is that I am glad I own weeks not points.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 7, 2022)

timsi said:


> All I can say is that I am glad I own weeks not points.



Yes, the complexities of points systems, particularly Marriott, can make your head spin at times. I sometimes forget how layered and complex it all really is until I start writing something like the above or start trying to explain how it all works to someone less familiar with it all. Even though I love the flexibility that points offer, there is a certain simplicity to the weeks we own that is very appealing.


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## TravelTime (Sep 8, 2022)

I own at Ko Olina. Last year, we went there for 12 nights. I forgot I owned there LOL and I used points to go. Then I realized it would have been cheaper to use my week. However, I booked the penthouse for 10 nights and booked 2 nights with the 30% off discount. So I guess I could not have gotten these things with a deeded week. All in all, it might have been the equivalent of $500 extra. But in the big scheme of things, to get what I want on the highest floor plus a discount for the extra nights, I was still happy. So sometimes there are good reasons to use points over weeks.


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## CPNY (Sep 8, 2022)

Which Marriott resorts are great for beachfront, excluding Crystal Shores and the Aruba properties. Are places like Beachplace and MFC easier and a better value through Interval if traveling from June to September?


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## JIMinNC (Sep 8, 2022)

CPNY said:


> Which Marriott resorts are great for beachfront, excluding Crystal Shores and the Aruba properties. Are places like Beachplace and MFC easier and a better value through Interval if traveling from June to September?


Ocean Pointe and Oceana Palms near Palm Beach are popular Marriott beachfront resorts. Beachplace in Ft Lauderdale gets mixed reviews because it’s more urban. There’s obviously the four beachfront properties in Hilton Head plus Ocean Watch in Myrtle Beach. 

You might get more informed responses by posting these questions on the Marriott Board.


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## tamu_bu (Sep 8, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> I own at Ko Olina. Last year, we went there for 12 nights. I forgot I owned there LOL and I used points to go.


This is my aspiration. To own so much that I forget that I own a piece of Hawaii! One day...


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## cjseibs (Sep 8, 2022)

dioxide45 said:


> Once you start depositing into Abound, you are leading to the diminishing inventory available in VSN. You lead to the very thing many here seem to be rallying against.


Yes the whole point of Marriot acquiring VSN was to give the MVC  owners access to properties in Mexico


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## TravelTime (Sep 8, 2022)

cjseibs said:


> Yes the whole point of Marriot acquiring VSN was to give the MVC  owners access to properties in Mexico



Or maybe the wanted to enhance options of places to go and stay to sell the program better. I really do think they probably want to enhance the customer experience as well. In Hawaii, while they have Maui already in the same location in the Kaanapali area, they never have enough inventory. That takes a lot of points. The more points people use up, the more they will need to buy. Mexico is the same. They even made Los Cabos as many points as Hawaii.


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## bice01 (Sep 8, 2022)

TravelTime said:


> Or maybe the wanted to enhance options of places to go and stay to sell the program better. I really do think they probably want to enhance the customer experience as well. In Hawaii, while they have Maui already in the same location in the Kaanapali area, they never have enough inventory. That takes a lot of points. The more points people use up, the more they will need to buy. Mexico is the same. They even made Los Cabos as many points as Hawaii.




Marriott Frenchman's Reef is being rebranded as Westin.  

You can draw your own conclusion of how they view the Westin brand/properties, and their main goals of merging VSN


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## TravelTime (Sep 8, 2022)

bice01 said:


> Marriott Frenchman's Reef is being rebranded as Westin.
> 
> You can draw your own conclusion of how they view the Westin brand/properties, and their main goals of merging VSN



That is the hotel side, not timeshare.

In any case, Marriott hotels puts Marriott brand and Westin brand in the same category, which is Premium category. JW Marriott is in their Luxury category. I do think there are differences in public perceptions of the various brands but not necessarily as much as Westin people think. It really depends on the individual hotel. For example, Ritz Carlton Coconut Grove is considered to be a fancy Marriott. Who would have guessed. We are staying there and at the Ritz Key Biscayne in a few weeks. I am wondering what I will think of the two hotels.

Premium Category hotels:

Marriott Hotels Resorts & Suites
 Sheraton
 Marriott Vacation Club
 Delta Hotels
 Westin
 Le Meridien 
Renaissance Hotels
 Autograph Collection
 Tribute Portfolio


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## pchung6 (Sep 8, 2022)

bice01 said:


> Marriott Frenchman's Reef is being rebranded as Westin.
> 
> You can draw your own conclusion of how they view the Westin brand/properties, and their main goals of merging VSN


Reef is one notch better than Cove. Reef has much better pool than Cove. Cove has a lot mosquitos and sand flees, and Reef has no mosquitos but a lot lizards. They were both Marriott's that time when I was in STT. I stayed at timeshare, but walked to Reef everyday to use their pool and amenities. Cove was just mediocre vs Westin standard, while Reef was very in par with Westin, based on my experience.


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## Eric B (Sep 8, 2022)

cjseibs said:


> Yes the whole point of Marriot acquiring VSN was to give the MVC  owners access to properties in Mexico



My perspective would probably be that the company Marriott acquired ILG and therefore it's status as owning a subsidiary that is the developer of the Vistana resorts and the network operator in order to be able to sell more points to MVC owners and to get access to the additional Vistana owners as potential new customers for sales. Any benefit to the current MVC is incidental to that and would most generously interpreted as being an intentional side effect of having it set up to improve the attractiveness of future sales. The benefits to the current Vistana owners that will be able to access Abound are similar. I have no illusions that Marriott (a publicly held company) would have as its focus giving MVC owners access to properties in Mexico if there were no profit based motivation for them - the business of business is business after all is said and done. If they blew whatever sum the acquisition cost in order to get their owners additional reservation opportunities in Mexico when the majority of the income to be derived from those owners continues to pay maintenance fees on the underlying resorts in the trust plus the operating costs for the exchange it would be incredibly poor business judgement.

That being said, the access they are getting for those MVC owners to properties in Mexico might not hurt all that much given the number of developer-owned intervals/points there are there. We'll see how things change in the next few years, but the sky isn't falling IMHO.


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## timsi (Sep 9, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Yes, the complexities of points systems, particularly Marriott, can make your head spin at times. I sometimes forget how layered and complex it all really is until I start writing something like the above or start trying to explain how it all works to someone less familiar with it all. Even though I love the flexibility that points offer, there is a certain simplicity to the weeks we own that is very appealing.


The complexity makes it harder for the owners to hold the developers accountable. 


It seems we did agree in the end that it makes business sense for the developer to hold onto the best deeds and that it does not have a reason to rush to convey them to the trust. The foreclosed and ROFRed deeds don't have to end up being transferred into the trust right away (as some seemed to assume), or ever. I am still curious to learn if you think their rental portfolio (weeks, not ownership of trust points) looks remotely similar with what you find in the trust.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 9, 2022)

timsi said:


> The foreclosed and ROFRed deeds don't have to end up being transferred into the trust right away (as some seemed to assume), or ever. I am still curious to learn if you think their rental portfolio (weeks, not ownership of trust points) looks remotely similar with what you find in the trust.



Who knows what their rental portfolio looks like? I would think (and hope) that whatever weeks they do hold primarily for rental *are* some of the better weeks with the highest revenue potential. Otherwise, they are not properly using shareholder capital. My view is if they spend shareholder capital to buy back inventory, they need to use it in the most productive use. If they think that best use of that capital is renting that week versus putting it into the Trust to resell, that is their business decision. As a shareholder, I think if they don't employ their capital to its best use internally (either buying to resell or to rent), they should return that capital to me by increasing the dividend or doing more share buybacks to increase EPS.

As an owner, my only concern is there is enough inventory in either the Trust or the Exchange to meet demand from me and other owners. I think they understand that too, and they do have an incentive to try to match availability with demand, since happy owners do buy more. When 60%-70% of your VOI sales are to existing owners, having happy owners becomes key to having happy shareholders.


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## timsi (Sep 9, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> Who knows what their rental portfolio looks like? I would think (and hope) that whatever weeks they do hold primarily for rental *are* some of the better weeks with the highest revenue potential. Otherwise, they are not properly using shareholder capital. My view is if they spend shareholder capital to buy back inventory, they need to use it in the most productive use. If they think that best use of that capital is renting that week versus putting it into the Trust to resell, that is their business decision. As a shareholder, I think if they don't employ their capital to its best use internally (either buying to resell or to rent), they should return that capital to me by increasing the dividend or doing more share buybacks to increase EPS.
> 
> As an owner, my only concern is there is enough inventory in either the Trust or the Exchange to meet demand from me and other owners. I think they understand that too, and they do have an incentive to try to match availability with demand, since happy owners do buy more. When 60%-70% of your VOI sales are to existing owners, having happy owners becomes key to having happy shareholders.


If you owned a multi residential building, would you allow the building manager to acquire units at a preferential rate, keep the best ones and give the others back to you?


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## JIMinNC (Sep 9, 2022)

timsi said:


> If you owned a multi residential building, would you allow the building manager to acquire units at a preferential rate, keep the best ones and give the others back to you?



If the multi-residential building I owned in your example was an apartment building, the entire building would have to be sold as one, so if the building manager wanted to buy it from me and paid me any price that I was willing to sell it for, I would sell it to him and he could do with it as he pleased.

If the multi-residential building in question was a condominium or townhome, each unit would be individually owned. If another owner sold their unit to the building manager at a preferential price that lowered my property value, that is their business and the new owner (the building manager) is entitled to do whatever he wants to with the unit he just bought, as long as it was in compliance with HOA rules. I would not be a party to that transaction. I may not like it, but that's the way the market works.

If I owned the apartment building in the first example above, and someone wanted to buy a portion of the building and convert those to condos, once they paid me my price, it's theirs to do with as they wish. 

Similarly, if an owner of a timeshare week sells his VOI at a low price that allows the Program Manager to buy that VOI back to either resell or rent at a profit, that is between those two parties. An owner of a different VOI is not a party to that transaction and has no say outside of program rules.


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## Eric B (Sep 9, 2022)

JIMinNC said:


> If the multi-residential building I owned in your example was an apartment building, the entire building would have to be sold as one, so if the building manager wanted to buy it from me and paid me any price that I was willing to sell it for, I would sell it to him and he could do with it as he pleased.
> 
> If the multi-residential building in question was a condominium or townhome, each unit would be individually owned. If another owner sold their unit to the building manager at a preferential price that lowered my property value, that is their business and the new owner (the building manager) is entitled to do whatever he wants to with the unit he just bought, as long as it was in compliance with HOA rules. I would not be a party to that transaction. I may not like it, but that's the way the market works.
> 
> ...



No idea what you're responding to, but there's also the possibility of a cooperative townhome arrangement where there is a vote by the other owners or a board to approve new purchasers of units. I don't see any possibility for timeshares going in that direction, though there are a few small independent ones where the developer screens the type of people they make sales offers to.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 9, 2022)

Eric B said:


> No idea what you're responding to, but there's also the possibility of a cooperative townhome arrangement where there is a vote by the other owners or a board to approve new purchasers of units. I don't see any possibility for timeshares going in that direction, though there are a few small independent ones where the developer screens the type of people they make sales offers to.



I was replying to the quoted post by timsi. A comparison was made of Marriott owned units that they rent to a multi-residential building sale/purchase.


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## timsi (Sep 10, 2022)

@JIMinNC Fair points.


JIMinNC said:


> Who knows what their rental portfolio looks like? I would think (and hope) that whatever weeks they do hold primarily for rental *are* some of the better weeks with the highest revenue potential. Otherwise, they are not properly using shareholder capital. My view is if they spend shareholder capital to buy back inventory, they need to use it in the most productive use. If they think that best use of that capital is renting that week versus putting it into the Trust to resell, that is their business decision. As a shareholder, I think if they don't employ their capital to its best use internally (either buying to resell or to rent), they should return that capital to me by increasing the dividend or doing more share buybacks to increase EPS.
> 
> As an owner, my only concern is there is enough inventory in either the Trust or the Exchange to meet demand from me and other owners. I think they understand that too, and they do have an incentive to try to match availability with demand, since happy owners do buy more. When 60%-70% of your VOI sales are to existing owners, having happy owners becomes key to having happy shareholders.


We evolved from no way Marriott keeps the best inventory outside the trust for its rental business to they would not use the capital properly if they didn’t do it.

You believe though that when it comes to dividing the inventory, they would not apply the same principle. Yes, owners should be “happy” and have access to some inventory.  However, you do not really know if they release 350 units instead of 400 for one of the best weeks of the season.  As long as the inventory balances across the season, they are fine, and they would not break any rule.  Additionally, the sales reps always use the perceived or real lack of inventory to their advantage asking owners to upgrade for higher status, buy trusts points etc. It seems that once you are a captive audience you do not have too many options and many bite and buy more. The inventory issues do not seem to be detrimental to their business at all.


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## JIMinNC (Sep 10, 2022)

timsi said:


> @JIMinNC Fair points.
> 
> We evolved from no way Marriott keeps the best inventory outside the trust for its rental business to they would not use the capital properly if they didn’t do it.
> 
> You believe though that when it comes to dividing the inventory, they would not apply the same principle. Yes, owners should be “happy” and have access to some inventory.  However, you do not really know if they release 350 units instead of 400 for one of the best weeks of the season.  As long as the inventory balances across the season, they are fine, and they would not break any rule.  Additionally, the sales reps always use the perceived or real lack of inventory to their advantage asking owners to upgrade for higher status, buy trusts points etc. It seems that once you are a captive audience you do not have too many options and many bite and buy more. The inventory issues do not seem to be detrimental to their business at all.



No question that inventory management is a very opaque black box. Always has been and probably always will be. 

My main concern is always simply whether we can book what we want, and so far in my specific case, the answer has always been yes. If Marriott does play games, it hasn’t impacted me yet. I just choose not to worry about what I can’t control or know.


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