# Received empty USPS package - Scam?



## BJRSanDiego (Dec 14, 2021)

Today I received a little 4x6 plastic envelope send Priority 2nd day,  from North Tonawanda NY.   When I opened it, I find that it was empty.  Nada.  There was a return address and a name, which seem to jive.  And there was an illegible "order number".   

I checked my Amazon and ebay purchase history and it doesn't line up with the ship date or anything close.  

So, I have a bunch of unanswered questions:  who is this person, how did she get my name and address, why was there a sense of urgency (priority mail), why would an unknown person spend perhaps $5 mailing an empty envelope, was I sent this empty package to confirm that my address is real, was I sent this empty package to confirm that an order has been fulfilled, is this some sort of scam??  

The people on Tug have a lot of knowledge of scams and have a bunch of ideas.  What do you think is going on?


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## dioxide45 (Dec 14, 2021)

Perhaps it was related to bags of seeds people were being received. Perhaps sales made and shipped (empty) so they can then go in and write a verified buyer review for whatever product they are trying to push out there?


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## DaveNV (Dec 14, 2021)

A quick Google search returned this page, among others.  It may offer some ideas of what's behind it:



			https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=903616
		


And this thread, which says the empty envelope may be the downstream of a mail fraud perpetrated on someone else:









						Reporting potential mail fraud, if I was seemingly not the victim?
					

I received a sealed, empty, business-size envelope in the mail from a non-Googleable entity called 'Buy3rzParadise' claiming to be located in the Galleria in Atlanta. It had a USPS First-Class...




					ask.metafilter.com
				




Dave


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## tombanjo (Dec 14, 2021)

check your credit cards for something you don't recognize. If something had to ship to your billing address, that shows proof of delivery.


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## VacationForever (Dec 14, 2021)

Same thought... check your credit cards, paypal etc.


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## BJRSanDiego (Dec 14, 2021)

VacationForever said:


> Same thought... check your credit cards, paypal etc.


I checked Paypal and nothing unusual showed up.
I also checked the nearly illegible "order number" and it has a format completely different than the order numbers from eBay or Amazon.    
But we're going to closely monitor the credit card bills as they come in.


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## geekette (Dec 14, 2021)

seems scammy.   worth ignoring as could be they want you to call about this “order”, whoever “they” might be.   bait.


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## TheTimeTraveler (Dec 14, 2021)

Use the tracking number to see If you can track it backwards to determine the city, state and zip it was deposited into the mainstream.  That may help you in putting the puzzle together.......



.


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## easyrider (Dec 14, 2021)

BJRSanDiego said:


> What do you think is going on?



I think it is a person selling online trying to increase their online stats of delivery. I wouldn't worry about it too much. I think you did the right things already.

Bill


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## BJRSanDiego (Dec 15, 2021)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> Use the tracking number to see If you can track it backwards to determine the city, state and zip it was deposited into the mainstream.  That may help you in putting the puzzle together.......
> 
> 
> 
> .


The USPS tracking info agrees with the label in terms of the name of the person who sent it, city, state, zip, etc.  But it is still a total puzzle.  I also did a google search and the name of the sender appears to agree with the address shown - - from a modest house in a residential neighborhood in Tonawanda, NY.


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## BJRSanDiego (Dec 15, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I think it is a person selling online trying to increase their online stats of delivery. I wouldn't worry about it too much. I think you did the right things already.
> 
> Bill


You could be right.  At least I hope so.  I wonder how they got my name and address though...


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## artringwald (Dec 15, 2021)

Perhaps someone sent you a gift of invisible art.









						Artist sells invisible sculpture for over $18K
					

An Italian artist sold an invisible sculpture for over $18,000 giving the buyer a certificate of authenticity to prove it’s real.




					nypost.com


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Dec 15, 2021)

Possible explanation, using info from Art's links. Seller is running a scam, but not against you. 

The seller has "sold" something to someone in your zip code.  They ship an empty package to someone in that zip code (you are the lucky recipient) using a trackable method.  Seller keeps the money.  When buyer complains product not delivered, seller uses the shipment to  your address as proof of delivery, and disputes the complaint.


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## Tia (Dec 15, 2021)

This sounds like what was talked about on Nextdoor yesterday, someone was trying to find where their paid for package went.-

'found out from postal that it’s a new scam, they over ride the web site your purchasing from, they have you pay with PayPal. Then they ship a small empty box with a tracking number to a wrong address in your area. Once it’s delivered PayPal says there is nothing they can do because it was delivered!  '

' did dispute it with PayPal and they closed the case they will not reopen, even though I have proof! They said the tracking number shows it was delivered, it doesn’t matter that it was a scam. I’ll never use PayPal again, they do not do anything to protect you. Post office is trying to help. '



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Possible explanation, using info from Art's links. Seller is running a scam, but not against you.
> 
> The seller has "sold" something to someone in your zip code.  They ship an empty package to someone in that zip code (you are the lucky recipient) using a trackable method.  Seller keeps the money.  When buyer complains product not delivered, seller uses the shipment to  your address as proof of delivery, and disputes the complaint.


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## easyrider (Dec 15, 2021)

BJRSanDiego said:


> You could be right.  At least I hope so.  I wonder how they got my name and address though...



For me , it has been Ebay purchases where the order was cancelled by Ebay or I asked for a refund. I had ordered and paid for a painting from a seller in China. I had bought art this way before so no red flags. The transaction was cancelled but I received an envelope with a weird business card inside from this seller. I also had the same experience with motorcycle parts and fishing gear. With these the seller sent a brochure for motorcycle parts and a sticker for fishing gear. I had to request a refund and for some reason I couldn't leave negative feedback.

The last company had a CA address but when I looked at Ebay they were in China. 

Locking the credit is a good idea. I had to lock mine when I lost my wallet with my new Social Security card in it. I needed a SS card to get my enhanced drivers license and forgot that it was in my wallet. I monitor my credit inquiries at credit karma and did have inquiries soon after losing my wallet.  Notifying our credit card companies that we were compromised and doing the credit lock as described below is what we did. I had joined Life Lock for a brief while but after recieving info on financial forums decided to just do it myself.  

Bill  









						How to lock your credit
					

A credit lock may be able to help protect your information from identity theft. Here’s how to lock your credit at each of the three consumer credit bureaus.




					www.creditkarma.com


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## artringwald (Dec 15, 2021)

BJRSanDiego said:


> You could be right. At least I hope so. I wonder how they got my name and address though...


I was always very protective of my cell phone number.  After Comcast stopped supporting texting on our land line, I gave my cell number to Diamond Resorts when we checked in. It wasn't long after that when my cell was getting spammers. Any dishonest employee of a company that has your home address or your phone number could sell it.


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## geekette (Dec 15, 2021)

artringwald said:


> I was always very protective of my cell phone number.  After Comcast stopped supporting texting on our land line, I gave my cell number to Diamond Resorts when we checked in. It wasn't long after that when my cell was getting spammers. Any dishonest employee of a company that has your home address or your phone number could sell it.


or honest employees but hacked system.  In the past few months, I have received multiple notices in the mail from multiple organizations I do business with telling me they were compromised.


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## heathpack (Dec 16, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps it was related to bags of seeds people were being received. Perhaps sales made and shipped (empty) so they can then go in and write a verified buyer review for whatever product they are trying to push out there?



I recently listened to a podcast on the Great Seed Panic of 2020.

Mostly the mysterious seeds that people received were late orders from Amazon.  Early in COVID, people were nesting and planting gardens.  They ordered seeds on Amazon, in many cases not realizing the seller was in China.  Sometimes some of the seeds came and people didn’t notice their orders were incomplete.  Sometimes the seeds didn’t come and they just forgot they ordered seeds at all.

Meanwhile China was being hit by waves of lockdowns, which interfered with getting the orders out in a timely manner.

It was originally thought to be a scam related to generating fake Amazon reviews but in the end, it turned out that most people who got the mysterious seeds had in fact ordered seeds but forgotten about it.

The only thing slightly scammy was that the seeds were frequently labeled “earrings” or some other inert lightweight item.  This is because there’s a bunch of USDA hoops to jump to import seeds into the US and the Chinese sellers avoid these hoops by intentionally mislabeling them.

It seems unbelievable that hundreds of people simply forgot they ordered seeds.  But in the end, that’s exactly what happened in the Great Seed Panic. No scam, just a boatload of brain farts.


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## DaveNV (Dec 16, 2021)

Getting weird things in the mail isn't particularly unusual.  Be sure to save the envelope. You may need it. Here's why:

I ordered two very cool, folding patio chairs last year, for about $40 each.  It was an online sale, from a legitimate-looking company I'd found.  I'm usually pretty cautious about such things, and I know fake websites exist. This one seemed okay.

I received the usual emails with the progress of my order, up to the point where they said my order had shipped. Then nothing.  No tracking number, no further emails from the company.  About a month went by, and still no chairs.  I went back to the company website and sent a "Where's my order?" message.  Nothing.  This went on for awhile, until my "I've been scammed" hackles started to rise.

One day I received an envelope in the mail with two tiny crank-type music boxes. They were cheap trinkets, nothing I'd ever have purchased, certainly. But I saved them, and the envelope, thinking it was sent to me accidentally, and that at some point the company might want them back, or something.  I didn't know.  But I saved them anyway.

The next time I went back to the folding chair website, it said my order had been delivered. Um, no.  Not to my house, anyway.  So I again sent messages, and again, I had no reply.  That's when I got Paypal involved.  I like using PayPal when ordering things like this, "just in case."  In this example, it paid off.  Where the company wouldn't reply to me directly, they replied to PayPal immediately.  They claimed I had received the folding chairs they'd shipped, and listed the tracking number and shipping details as proof.

Well, well, whattaya know?  That mysterious envelope with the 50-cent crank music boxes had a label on it - with that exact tracking number.  I sent PayPal a photo of the envelope showing the tracking number, and the two music boxes I'd received.  I immediately received a full refund of the full amount of my order.

If I'd tossed out the envelope with the music boxes as the junk they are, I'd have had no proof of anything.  The only place that tracking number showed up for me was on the label attached to the envelope.  My story had a good outcome, but how many people get something they didn't expect, toss it out, and later find out it was part of the scam being perpetrated on them?

Dave


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## TheTimeTraveler (Dec 16, 2021)

Thank you for posting this.  If ever needed, the USPS may be willing to provide you with the exact size and weight of each package if you have a "mail fraud" situation, which clearly this is

Although not well known, almost every single package has a size and weight associated with it as it moves behind the scenes (including still pictures along the way).

Most of this technology came into existence as a direct or indirect result of the events which occurred on September 11, 2001.




.


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## bogey21 (Dec 16, 2021)

My Son sells a lot of Sports Cards and Comic Books on Ebay.  He tells me that the empty package with tracking number thing is common.  He tells me it works both ways.  Sellers sends Buyers empty packages as Proof of Delivery and Buyers send Sellers empty packages as Proof of Return.  Apparently, Ebay tries to stay out of the whole thing except for keeping their commissions....

George


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## isisdave (Dec 16, 2021)

DW recently saw an ad on Facebook for some sweater or other. It said it was Neiman Marcus, and the price, while good, wasn't so low as to seem suspicious. As soon as it was paid for, she got a confirmation from "neiman-marcus.store" and it was clear it was Chinese, and said to expect arrival in a month. They ignored my request to cancel. PayPal refused to intervene, despite the fraudulent store name. The item arrived today. The label says it was shipped by JOE DOE in Springfield Gardens NY via DHL to our local post office, and then delivered by USPS.


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## DaveNV (Dec 16, 2021)

isisdave said:


> DW recently saw an ad on Facebook for some sweater or other. It said it was Neiman Marcus, and the price, while good, wasn't so low as to seem suspicious. As soon as it was paid for, she got a confirmation from "neiman-marcus.store" and it was clear it was Chinese, and said to expect arrival in a month. They ignored my request to cancel. PayPal refused to intervene, despite the fraudulent store name. The item arrived today. The label says it was shipped by JOE DOE in Springfield Gardens NY via DHL to our local post office, and then delivered by USPS.



Is it the correct sweater?  Or a fake knockoff? If it's nice enough, and you paid a price you feel is fair, then you dodged a bullet, even if it isn't the real thing.

I once was happy to have purchased some great Pierre Cardin luggage in Thailand. The price was great, and I felt I'd really scored.  It wasn't until sometime later that I discovered the  logo name said "Pierre Carain," The lowercase letters A and D were shaped the same, except for the "tail" on the lowercase D. At a glance, it appeared to be the real thing.

It was something like this, only harder to tell apart:





Dave


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## BJRSanDiego (Dec 25, 2021)

A partial update:

I received a charge yesterday on a credit card from a company called Poshmark.   We didn't make the charge.  We never heard of the company.  So it is a fraudulent charge. 

Also, last week we were alerted that someone tried to purchase something on that credit card and the cc. people denied the purchase based on a bunch of other similar suspicious activity coming from Steamgames.   When I googled it, I saw complaints regarding or alleging fraud.  Here is one of the complaints:  https://www.complaintsboard.com/steamgamescom-credit-card-fraud-c823344

I did a google search and also checked the BBB on Poshmark.  On the google search I saw a few reports of people being charged for something that they didn't order and also receiving an envelope with a very small inexpensive item in it that they didn't order.  That was apparently enough proof to the credit card company that something was delivered and the order fulfilled.  Interestingly, the format of the order number on my own empty envelope was very similar to that listed on the BBB. 

So, somehow someone got my credit card number and security code.  Perhaps some company with our cc on file got hacked or perhaps someone wrote down my card number at a store when I was buying something.  So, we cancelled the card.  I suspect that Poshmark will claim that they delivered something to me.  Luckily I saved the empty envelope.


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## dioxide45 (Dec 25, 2021)

Poshmark is a resale listing type  of site. People list gently used brand name apparel items for resale.


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## DaveNV (Dec 25, 2021)

BJRSanDiego said:


> So, somehow someone got my credit card number and security code.  Perhaps some company with our cc on file got hacked or perhaps someone wrote down my card number at a store when I was buying something.  So, we cancelled the card.



About 10 years ago I made a purchase online with a California company.  Within two days there was about $200 worth of fraudulent charges placed on the account.  I tend to keep a close eye on my accounts, so I noticed things were wrong, and I called the bank right away.  It turned out the fraudulent charges were for a video game tech support line - in Europe.  I explained I had nothing to do with any of that, and the bank took care of the rest.  The money was immediately returned to my account, but then about a month later I was notified that their investigation showed it was a fraudulent charge, and appropriate actions had been taken against that company.  The California company was likely the source of the card number getting sent out to the people who used it to buy tech support time for their video game. Nothing else made sense at the time.

You need to keep an eye on your credit cards, and how they're used.  It doesn't take much for things to get out of hand.  I'm hoping this issue is the end of this situation for you.

Dave


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## Paumavista (Dec 26, 2021)

dioxide45 said:


> Poshmark is a resale listing type  of site. People list gently used brand name apparel items for resale.


I have a number of friends who like this site (I haven't used it yet).    I purchased a LOT of items recently from Face Book Marketplace during their free shipping period......I paid via PayPal (Buy it Now). A few of the items were "cancelled by seller" prior to shipment....I have no idea why but lucky for me they all refunded my purchase money.  I received all the other items (about 20) from all over the country (and I had some items delivered directly to other family members around the country.....so I wouldn't have to resend).  Purchasing on-line like this from private sellers seems to be catching on (like renting your timeshare to someone you don't know)......there is a chance it could be fraud or a hoax but the vast majority are just good people making a good deal for both people.


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## isisdave (Dec 26, 2021)

I have read that the source of the fraud is likely to be some transaction you made a month or two ago ... they wait in the hope that you will blame someone you had a more recent transaction with. I've had a few incidents over many years, but never was able to identify the source.


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