# How Do They Get Away With The Lies?



## tomcoo (Jan 4, 2011)

I attended Cabo Villas presentation.  I told them i did not need a time share but they said it was a good investment.  They could rent it for $2,500 a year (18% return).  I asked if they would guarantee that in writing and he said yes. I would not sign without a lawyer reviewing it. They said under Mexican law they only had one day to do the deal but they would give me a "lawyer letter" allowing me 30 days to have it reviewed and I could cancel for a full refund.

I had Mexican lawyer review it and then he explained they are scamers.  They lied to me and will deny all oral misrepresentatikons.  They think they have trapped with with a clever contract.  He said to dispute it with American Express and sometimes they will reverse the charge but not always.  I have and provided numerous posts testifying to their devious methods.  My best bet is AE.

Any suggestions on  how to convince AE to reverse the charges.

Anyone else have a beef with 
CVBR


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## theo (Jan 4, 2011)

*Another thought / suggestion...*



tomcoo said:


> I attended Cabo Villas presentation......
> My best bet is AE.



Your post does not mention how long ago you actually made this purchase, but another potential avenue of redress for you to consider is filing a formal complaint with PROFECO in Mexico.


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## siesta (Jan 4, 2011)

the contract a buyer is signing is indicative of the terms and conditions he/she is agreeing to, not what the salesman says.  There is surely a clause in the purchase agreement that states this. That is how they are "getting away with it".

If you are a longstanding customer with AE, you may have some luck. But chances are they are in cahoots with the "scammers" just like Bank of America is. Your best bet is, unfortunately, PROFECO, who although sometimes effective, will take a long time to reach a resolution for you.  Sorry for your troubles and good luck.


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## tomcoo (Jan 4, 2011)

Thank you for your replys.  I signed the contract 11/26 and emailed my recission letter 12/12, well within the 30 days.  I also filed a complaint with Profeco within the 30 days & included my recession letter.  I have  POD of the delievery.  My lawyer says oral misrepresentations are a vaild defense against a contract.  I feel the numerous posts on many web sites about CVBR lying should be sufficent to substantiate that they lie.  My first hope is AE, this is a CostCo AE and I have been a long time customer.  I have my home, car and disabilty insurance with them and invest money with AE Financial now Ameriprise).  We will see.  I have also started to file complaints and contact everyone.  The American Consular Agencies said the Cabo Secretary of Tourism, Miroslava Bautista is an honest person.  So I have contacted her. Still have to do state AG, FTC, FBI etc.  There is much information on the web on how to do this.  You want to make their life miserable.


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## siesta (Jan 4, 2011)

please keep us up to date, I sincerely hope you get your money back. remember, the squeeky wheel gets the grease.


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## tomcoo (Jan 4, 2011)

siesta said:


> the contract a buyer is signing is indicative of the terms and conditions he/she is agreeing to, not what the salesman says.  There is surely a clause in the purchase agreement that states this. That is how they are "getting away with it".
> 
> If you are a longstanding customer with AE, you may have some luck. But chances are they are in cahoots with the "scammers" just like Bank of America is. Your best bet is, unfortunately, PROFECO, who although sometimes effective, will take a long time to reach a resolution for you.  Sorry for your troubles and good luck.



By getting the lawyer I am abdicating all responsiblity for review to my lawyer.
I am not qualfied to review contracts.  My signature is provisional at this point and not agreeing to anything in the contract.  Otherwise there would be no point to the lawyer letter.


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## tomcoo (Jan 4, 2011)

tomcoo said:


> By getting the lawyer I am abdicating all responsiblity for review to my lawyer.
> I am not qualfied to review contracts.  My signature is provisional at this point and not agreeing to anything in the contract.  Otherwise there would be no point to the lawyer letter.



I should have said by getting the lawyer letter.  The letter is prima-facie evidence that I wanted a lawyer to review the contract before accepting it and evidence that they knew this.  

Another thought, I was thinking of hiring David Horowitz, scamers hate publicity.


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## tomcoo (Jan 12, 2011)

Everyone who feels they were scammed should write a complaint letter to their credit card company(s) complaining about that resort.  Even if you do not have that card or used that card send them a complaint. 

AE told me the more complaints they have about a resort the better the chance they will reverse the charges when someone files a dispute.
If they get enough they will even cancel the merchant's account.

This will help everyone, fight back.

AMERICAN EXPRESS
DOUGLAS DiPAOLA
P.O. BOX 981532 
EL PASO, TX 79998

CHASE VISA DISPUTE DEPARTMENT
P.O. BOX 15299
WELLINGTON, DE 19850-5299
ight back.


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## jmroncamano (Jan 13, 2011)

*Cobo Villas*

Went to a presentation there in late 2008. Root Canal is a fair description of the tactics they use, they just keep at it till you are ready to cave in.  if that fails they have a “special vacation club” (Global Adventures) you can join.  Cost $1200 to $2000 then so much a month.  We caved in on the vacation club but they never followed up so we got the money back through the CC company.


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## taffy19 (Jan 13, 2011)

siesta said:


> please keep us up to date, I sincerely hope you get your money back. remember, the squeeky wheel gets the grease.


If this person is lucky enough to get his or her money back from the resort or credit card company, the developer of the resort will make them sign a gag order so they cannot let us know the outcome here and they often demand that people remove the bad publicity too.

How often have we seen a complaint retracted here already with new wording that the dispute has been resolved to their satisfaction and all the negative text has been removed?  If they don't, the resort has legal recourse against them at a later time.  It is right in black and white in the rescission notice that they sign.  They have it all figured out but, at least, the person will have his money back.

If you cannot say no to the pressure of these sales people, you better not go to these presentations because they will wear you down until you finally sign the dotted line supposedly at a big savings from where they started first.  It is customary in Mexico to negotiate the price and not everyone knows this when they do business there for the first time.  We didn't.

What really upsets me so much is that the salesmen are mostly Americans or Canadians because they speak our language so you are really lied to by a fellow countryman.  Don't they have any conscious at all to work for such greedy developers who even take advantage of their own workforce too.  They pay most of their workforce a daily wage of what it cost us for a cup of coffee at the resort while the sales people are paid a very high income if they sell a lot so it is to their advantage to lie and defraud you.

Buy *resale* or rent from an owner or make an easy exchange and you have saved yourself a lot of money and headaches.


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## puppymommo (Jan 13, 2011)

iconnections said:


> If this person is lucky enough to get his or her money back from the resort or credit card company, the developer of the resort will make them sign a gag order so they cannot let us know the outcome here and they often demand that people remove the bad publicity too.
> 
> If you cannot say no to the pressure of these sales people, you better not go to these presentations because they will wear you down until you finally sign the dotted line supposedly at a big savings from where they started first.



I agree with both of these statements.  This is true not just for Mexican timeshares, but for most timeshares in general.


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## Bunk (Jan 13, 2011)

siesta said:


> the contract a buyer is signing is indicative of the terms and conditions he/she is agreeing to, not what the salesman says.  There is surely a clause in the purchase agreement that states this. That is how they are "getting away with it".
> 
> If you are a longstanding customer with AE, you may have some luck. But chances are they are in cahoots with the "scammers" just like Bank of America is. Your best bet is, unfortunately, PROFECO, who although sometimes effective, will take a long time to reach a resolution for you.  Sorry for your troubles and good luck.




I don't believe that AE is "in cahoots with the 'scammers'".  If you have any reason to suspect that please let us know.

i have found American Express to be very fair to consumers who challenge charges on the grounds of fraud.


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## tomcoo (Jan 13, 2011)

*AE sems postive*

First let me explain I do [not] sign contracts without a lawyer reviewing.
Marina Fiesta would not give a copy, conversation over.
CVBR however said they would give me a lawyer letter giving me 30 days to review and cancel.  I needed to sign because of Mexican law, MF said the same thing so I am thinking this must be true.  Keep in mind this was my first time in Mexico and I knew nothing about TS scams.  They all use this scam.

 The problem is a sophistical statment in the lawyer letter that says contract has to be illegal to cancel.  That was a ruse to make me think I had 30 days but try and deny me a legitimate review.  Under close scrutiny this will not stand and the deceptive deceit will become apparent.  A review is to make sure a LEGAL contract meets your expectations and has no traps in the fine print.  If the contract is illegal then it is not enforaceable anyway.  I think this is evidence of intent to commit fraud.  Have to see what the State AG says.

American Express said something very important to all of us.  Complaints matter, the more they get about a resort the more likely they are to charge them back and even pull their merchant account.  Anyone with a complaint about CVBR (or any resort) needs to send a complaint to AE and all the other CC companies.  Even if you did use AE or own their card.  I did not use my Chase Visa but I will let them know CVBR are scamers.  If someone wants to discuss click on email this member and send me an email.  Keep in mine your email will be revealed to me & you will have mine when I reply.

PS if CC denys your dispute reaply again and again.  You may have to do it 5 or 6 times.


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## tomcoo (Jan 20, 2011)

Oopps, I left out NOt. I learned long time ago to not sign contracts with a lawyer checking the fine print.


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## DeniseM (Jan 20, 2011)

tomcoo said:


> Oopps, I left out NOt. I learned long time ago to not sign contracts with a lawyer checking the fine print.



_ I fixed it!_


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## PortableTech (Jan 21, 2011)

This is one thing that has always bugged me about time share presentations.  I understand that they cover themselves with their all oral promises are void in the contract language, but there really needs to be a case made for such sales being negotiated in Good Faith.  

It should not be allowed to lie your ass off and then wipe it away with a paper knowing that the customer does not understand that everything you have discussed for the last two hours is bogus.  That is acting in Bad Faith..

-- PortableTech


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## theo (Jan 21, 2011)

*I agree wholeheartedly, but...*



PortableTech said:


> .... there really needs to be a case made for such sales being negotiated in Good Faith.
> 
> It should not be allowed to lie your ass off and then wipe it away with a paper knowing that the customer does not understand that everything you have discussed for the last two hours is bogus.  That is acting in Bad Faith..



How exactly would you propose to influence or control unethical (...but not illegal) bad sales behavior? 

It would also be very difficult to "require" a clueless but willing buyer to actually read and understand exactly what what they are doing / buying before actually signing a contract, or to "require" them to have the sense to demand to see reflected in writing that which they have just "heard" floating around in the air as empty promises and / or outright falsehoods. 

Stated another way, how can you "legislate" buyer intelligence or their use of basic common sense? 

In an ideal world, I would personally like to see each and every developer sales rep be required to wear a "sandwich board" throughout all "presentations", standing in place with the board facing the "marks" as the sales weasel speaks. In the interests of truth in advertising and full disclosure, in large, brighltly colored block letters that placard would read as follows:

===============================================================================*
My name is [insert name; e.g. Howie Cheatum]. Just so you know, I am a hungry, lying parasite. 
You must buy what I am selling for me to make money, so I will tell you anything to make the sale. 

In view of the above, you should not believe a single claim out of my mouth unless I can also point out to you those exact same words, expressed in writing, within the contract which I will eventually attempt to cajole you into signing. You have now been forewarned. Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware). And by the way, you should be buying RESALE --- NOT HERE FROM ME! Thank you for your attention.* 
================================================================================

Just a thought....


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## tomcoo (Jan 24, 2011)

*Tomcoo Response*

This is tomcoo, I posted the original message.  Theo you are right about personal responsibility and due diligence.  

I learned long time ago that I am not qualified to review a contract.  What seems obvious to me is not always so and the fine pint is a mystery.  I do not sign a contract without a lawyer review.

This was my first time in Mexico and I had no knowledge of the TS fraud in Mexico.  I was using a friends TS at Marina Fiesta.  When you check in you are processed by a TS sales person.  She is giving you a free breakfast, discounted tours etc. AND then you are asked for just 90 minutes for a tour of the resort.   My guide was a Canadian, very engaging, very nice.  Short story they would not give me a copy of the contract for review so that ended that.  They did tell me they had only one day to sell me their TS.  (Also they emphasized it was not a TS but a NEW kind of vacation plan.)  

CVBR said they would guarantee an 18% ROI.  They explained how over 3 hours.  Very engaging sales people, they gain your trust.  He told me how he moved here for his wife’s health and the tragic death of his parents in a car accident.  True, maybe maybe not, TS sales people are will trained grifters.  

They found my hot button, I like many of you are sitting on cash at ¾% and looking for a better return.  I wanted my lawyer to review the contract but they said that they only had one day to sell the TS (just like Marina Fiesta) BUT they would give me a “lawyer letter” which would give me 30 days to have the contract reviewed and cancel if it did not meet my expectations.  It does say that but then there is a sophistical statement that there has to be something illegal to cancel.  I did not understand the trap until the lawyer pointed it out.  So despite my best efforts at due diligence I am now in dispute with CVBR.

So THEO, what do we do about this?  Education is the key, the sandwich board idea is great but it has to be done in more subtle way.   If I had even a fraction of the knowledge I have now I would have never been duped. 

 HR3099 International Travelers Bill of Rights Act 2009, it did not pass but it can be proposed again.  It is intended to make travel web sites warn of health and safety risks in foreign countries they are marketing.  Define safety; losing thousand to TS scams is not safe to me.  I let my representative know about my experience and my support of HR3099 which would require a web site to warn of TS scams.  Imagine a resort has to warn about TS scams on their web site, that would be your sandwich board.  Everyone would be advised to read the Profeco web site.  I had no idea who Profeco was till it was too late, ditto with TUG for that matter. 

Have you written to your credit card companies?  I used AE but I also sent a letter to Chase Visa (28 year member) letting them know about the fraud.  Have you written your state’s Attorney General, how about the FTC. 

 TS are grifters well trained in the art of fraudulent persuasion, victims are not.  I see all the posts complaining on Tug, Travel Advisor, squeaky wheel etc.  We all need to complain to the right people.

…do not send for whom the bells toll, they toll for thee.


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## PortableTech (Jan 25, 2011)

theo said:


> How exactly would you propose to influence or control unethical (...but not illegal) bad sales behavior?
> 
> It would also be very difficult to "require" a clueless but willing buyer to actually read and understand exactly what what they are doing / buying before actually signing a contract, or to "require" them to have the sense to demand to see reflected in writing that which they have just "heard" floating around in the air as empty promises and / or outright falsehoods.
> 
> ...



Theo,

I am not suggesting we force every buyer to read the sandwich board (but perhaps they should).  Where the concept of negotiated in good faith comes in is in the sales presenation given.  Once given in good faith truthfully represents their product.  They stick to the facts, and answer questions honestly.  They do not make up stories about magical we can rent  your week schemes, or try and tell people that the week are worth 10x now what they were 10 years ago, or try to explain how with that EOY Sub-Prime week you will be living it up at top resorts every year.  

That is what I am after, it is one thing to sell your product, it is another to outright lie and then claim, oh, all those things I told you in the last 3 hours were bogus lies, but I am covered by the contract after they get the signature.  That is bad faith.  


How to regulate it...  Well, it would seem simple enough, let the apropiate regulatory agency send in special shopers to the sales presentations from time to time, hidden camera or recorder, and see if outright known falsehoods are being represented as the truth.  If they are, fine them.  Now sadly it would probably devistate the the timeshare industry, and lessen the over abundance of cheap weeks now available on resale, but it would be good for the consumer.

-- PortableTech


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## theo (Jan 25, 2011)

*I agree, but...*



PortableTech said:


> ....let the apropiate regulatory agency send in special shoppers to the sales presentations from time to time, hidden camera or recorder, and see if outright known falsehoods are being represented as the truth.  If they are, fine them.



I certainly don't disagree with a single word of this idea in concept  --- and I also have nothing but limitless contempt for all lying, deceitful sales weasels.

That said, I think "the fly in the ointment" here is simply that actual *contract content* will generally always prevail in the eyes of the law. Assorted oral misrepresenations and / or "misunderstandings" aside, all the sales weasels can ultimately be held accountable for (from the perspective of a judge, anyhow) is that which is overtly expressed in writing within the associated contract, knowingly and voluntarily signed by our intrepid hypothetical buyer. Good faith or bad faith, contract content ultimately rules all.

I certainly wish that it was different. I also wish that I might win the lottery. 
Unfortunately, I think the odds of either occurence are very long indeed. 
In the meantime, I guess I'll just hope for smarter, more cautious buyers....


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## e.bram (Jan 25, 2011)

How many times  have all of us(me included) clicked a box on a web page saying we accept all the terms and conditions ans disclaimers before downloading a program or other request for information or membership. (including TUG)


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## qkitty (Jan 25, 2011)

How about a 30day cooling off period?? If what they are selling is truly wonderful they shouldn't bat an eye at it...oh, i forgot... they are in the business of profits!


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## tomcoo (Jan 27, 2011)

*What makes Quebec different?*

In "Mexico Tourist Advisory' at www.mexicotimesharefraud.info they say American and Canadian citizens are the prime marks BUT not Quebec.
The only answer I have so far is Quebec protects it's citizens better.  It is much harder to enforce collection in Quebec so they don't bother Canadians from Quebec.  What specifically does Quebec do for its citizens that protects them?  The answer may be useful.

Also I have mentioned HR3099.  Look it up, see if you think it would have merit for the TS problem in Mexico.  I would be interested in what others think.


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## theo (Jan 28, 2011)

*Linguistic or legal? --- BIG difference....*



tomcoo said:


> In "Mexico Tourist Advisory' at www.mexicotimesharefraud.info they say American and Canadian citizens are the prime marks BUT not Quebec.
> The only answer I have so far is Quebec protects it's citizens better.  It is much harder to enforce collection in Quebec so they don't bother Canadians from Quebec.  What specifically does Quebec do for its citizens that protects them?  The answer may be useful.



My bet is that it is simply a matter of Quebec being primarily a *French* language speaking province (unlike all of the other provinces of Canada, in which the primary language is English, as it is (...mostly ) in the USA.
Think about it. How many sales weasels are likely to be able to fluently lie in French (...as well as in English?)  

I sincerely doubt that your cited reference has anything whatsoever to do with any "citizen protections" somehow magically bestowed upon only the residents of a single Canadian province.
It's most likely just a "foreign language" issue --- no more, no less.


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## qkitty (Feb 1, 2011)

*Bank of America*

Quote )American Express said something very important to all of us.  Complaints matter, the more they get about a resort the more likely they are to charge them back and even pull their merchant account.  Anyone with a complaint about CVBR (or any resort) needs to send a complaint to AE and all the other CC companies.  Even if you did use AE or own their card.  I did not use my Chase Visa but I will let them know CVBR are scamers.  If someone wants to discuss click on email this member and send me an email.  Keep in mine your email will be revealed to me & you will have mine when I reply.

PS if CC denys your dispute reaply again and again.  You may have to do it 5 or 6 times.[/QUOTE]

I just got off the phone with Bank of America trying to start a "disputed item" for the t/s we bought in December, also based on verbal misrepresentations, and they said unless I can get the company to put in writing the verbal agreements I could not start a claim. Are they for real?? As if the sales rep or company will do that!  I am furious! The guy was of absolutely no help!

Should I can send in the dispute by mail, with a proof of delivery?
Any other suggestions? 

We are currently working with the t/s people to get the price reduced but are not confident we can get them to a price we are willing to take our lumps with. Yeah, we were sucked in too.


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## tomcoo (Feb 4, 2011)

*Bank of America the worst*

From the posts I have read BA is the worst as far as helping out their card holders.  Have you filed with Profeco?  Many people complain on variious web sites but don't complain to Profeco, you need to let Profeco know.  Also have you filed with your state's AG?  If the resort has a US office that is your best bet.  Misrepresentations are a valid defense to enforcing a contract. 
There are numerous posts against the resorts that substantiate the fraud.


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## theo (Feb 4, 2011)

*Only "maybe"...*



tomcoo said:


> Misrepresentations are a valid defense to enforcing a contract.



*Oral* misrepresentations, exaggerations and embellishments by a sales weasel during a "presentation" may well be ultimately regarded in the eyes of the law as just so much "noise floating around in the air".

In the end, actual contract *content* is generally what matters most and holds the most "sway" --- not the buzzing background noise which may have been playing during contract execution...


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## qkitty (Mar 12, 2011)

qkitty said:


> I just got off the phone with Bank of America trying to start a "disputed item" for the t/s we bought in December, also based on verbal misrepresentations, and they said unless I can get the company to put in writing the verbal agreements I could not start a claim. Are they for real?? As if the sales rep or company will do that!  I am furious! The guy was of absolutely no help!
> 
> Should I can send in the dispute by mail, with a proof of delivery?
> Any other suggestions?
> ...



Just wanted to let you all know that we worked with our timeshare company and have satisfactorily resolved our situation.


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## carl2591 (Mar 31, 2011)

*mexico timeshare scams*



qkitty said:


> Just wanted to let you all know that we worked with our timeshare company and have satisfactorily resolved our situation.



that sounds like a gag order.. great news nonetheless.  any details you can share.?


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## tomcoo (Oct 22, 2011)

*Still Waiting For American Express To Provide Answers*

There seems to be two camps, AE is Ok or the credit card companines are in cahoots with the scamers for the money.  I am now in the last group.
Despite my repeated attempts to have AE answer my questions they refuse.  They just say I did not cancel in the 5 days.  My contract gives me 30 days and they will not acknowlege that and address it.  I am mystified why not.
I have filed a complaint with the CFPB and will file for arbritration.  Maybe then they will be forced to provide some answers.


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## auntiepen (Nov 3, 2011)

I would like to share my timeshare purchase with you guys.  I bought Villas Sol timeshare in Costa Rica last April. I blamed myself for this mistake.  All the verbal promises were very attractive as the sales persons (Randy Mcintyre (boss) and Serjio Marin told us that we can rent the place for over $2000. First they told us that we do not have to do anything just contacted the agency ,Global resort service and they will rent our place in no time. We just have to pay the service fee of $599. The sales person , Randy McIntyre supposed to contact us before our last payment in July(we did not read the contract when we signed the papers that was the time) . He supposed explain to us step by step how this thing works. He never called but the Global resort service called us and told us that they will rent the place in Costa Rica for us and we have to pay the service fee first.  I thought this people must be associated with the resort and without the second though (I was so ignorance) I paid the guys.  And you know the rest of the stories.  We never heard from them again and when we called in July,2011 their phone lines were disconnected.  I finally checked our credit card statement and the resort has already charged the last payments.  We contacted the resort and was told that Randy Mcintyre was no longer work there.  We contacted Sergio via email and was told that he was on honeymoon and will contact us as soon as we came back.  We never heard from him.  We called the Amex to dispute the charge in August and just got the result that we signed the paper for the payment in July so the charge was valid.  Now we stuck with the resort and try to make the most use of it.  I will find a complain to amex as Tomcoo mentioned in Jan 12.  Any more place I should file a complaint?
Pen


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