# ? for Marriott owners



## mepiccolo (Jun 15, 2006)

We are strongly considering purchasing either a resale oceanfront every year or every other year at maui ocean club.  We are Starwood owners at WKORV.  We have heard a lot of horror stories regarding the ability to successsfully book your week with Marriott because of the 13 month multiple owner advantage.  If we were to call one year ahead at opening time on the respective Thursday what are our chance for booking the week we want (which would normally be the second week in November or the second week in June).  We just aren't willing to spend the money if it is going to be stressful trying to get the week we want and since we happily own at the Westin we have no intentions of buying another week at Marriott.  Any input would be appreciated.


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## daventrina (Jun 15, 2006)

As you own at WKORV there is a good chance that you would be unhappy at MOC. If you want more details, send us an email.....

We were so frustrated with Marriott that we sold our MOC week. 
Marriott touts that they doe "timeshare the Marriott way" and they do. If your happy at the Westin, don't expect Marriott to be anything like it.


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## Stefa (Jun 15, 2006)

I would think that the demand would be similar for both resorts.   The second week in November shouldn't be a problem since it is low season for Hawaii.   Normally the summer rush doesn't begin until after the second week in June, but that may be different at MOC because owners who are afraid they won't get the later summer weeks may call for those weeks.  

I believe half of the weeks are available for the 13-month rule and the other half are available at 12 months.  

One big difference between Marriott and Starwood is the way they trade through II.  Because Starwood choses the week to deposite into II, you don't have owners grabbing the good weeks for deposite for trading.   With Marriott, you get a certain number of owners who reserve the best weeks solely for trading purposes.  (Even when they don't really need to).


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## mepiccolo (Jun 15, 2006)

Thanks for replying.  We have decided to back off from purchasing at MOC because it sounds too stressful and the Marriott system sounds like it would be disappointing after the relatively easy reservation system at the Westin.  We do not want to spend over $20k to buy a headache or be angry and disappointed by Marriott's timeshare reservation system.  It sounds to me like the people who are happy about Marriott MOC are the people who own elsewhere (at a cheaper price) and traded in to MOC.

At Westin it seems like most of the people who are angry are the non-owners who get stuck with the lousy views/rooms.  Most of the owners are happy.

For the money you put out to own at the resort of your choice that's the way it should be-owners should be happy, not the other way around.


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## sandytoes (Jun 15, 2006)

Just my 2 cents . . . I just purchased my first time share at the beginning of the year . . . We bought directly from Marriott and have have not problem booking 3 weeks and even change one of the week after the fact. 

I am look at buying another week in the near future.


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## mepiccolo (Jun 15, 2006)

Glad you are happy with your purchase but the fact that you own multiple weeks is the key - you get the 13 month reservation advantage as opposed to someone who only owns one week and only has 50% of the rooms left to reserve which is why there are so many unhappy MOC owners.

We happily own one week at the Westin and had intentions of only buying one week at Marriott.  No way I'm giving Marriott over $20k to be treated like a redheaded stepchild because I only own one week.  It is worth it to me to wait until I can afford a second week at Westin and be confident I can take my vacations when I want to.


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## Eric (Jun 15, 2006)

I would suggest you don't just listen to Dave/Katrina or whichever one is the MVCI basher 
Maui is the #1 demanded resort MVCI has and they have alot more happy than uphappy owners. Some people just like to whine because things are not perfect. I am sure Westin will enjoy them  





			
				daventrina said:
			
		

> As you own at WKORV there is a good chance that you would be unhappy at MOC. If you want more details, send us an email.....
> 
> We were so frustrated with Marriott that we sold our MOC week.
> Marriott touts that they doe "timeshare the Marriott way" and they do. If your happy at the Westin, don't expect Marriott to be anything like it.


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## jlee2070 (Jun 15, 2006)

I've owned Marriott Waiohai on Kauai since the beginning and have had NO issues with reserving the week I wanted including July 4th last year...  But generally, I don't reserve during busy Holidays because I have no restrictions on when I can travel so...  I only own one week with Marriott.


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## mepiccolo (Jun 15, 2006)

I do not believe Dave and Tina are whiners and they had very legitimate gripes--the same ones we would have had if we had bought at MOC.  I do not believe it is as difficult to book in Kuaui as it is in Maui, which is reflected by the timeshare prices.  

The bottom line is Marriott's reservation system is geared for the satisfaction of the multiple-week owners at the expense of the one-week owners.


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## Dave M (Jun 15, 2006)

mepiccolo said:
			
		

> If we were to call one year ahead at opening time on the respective Thursday what are our chance for booking the week we want (which would normally be the second week in November or the second week in June).


If that's really the question, you should have no problem getting the week you want, especially for the second week in November, one of the slowest weeks of the year.

For something that is more useful than the hit-and-miss comments of the few that see this thread, consider getting more responses. Go to the *Users List* (link on above blue bar) and click on *Search Users* on the right side of the page. Then click on *Advanced Search* and enter the words *maui ocean* on the *Resorts Owned* line and click on *Search Now*. You'll find 36 TUGgers with one or more posts, all of whom own at MOC. You can send them all a short private message or e-mail message asking for help. Consider asking if they have had any difficulty reserving single weeks in early June or early November or at other non-school vacation times.

Yes, there have been a few horror stories posted here about difficulty in getting reservations at MOC. Most of those difficulties have been for peak weeks, typically January, February, holiday or vacation weeks when kids are out of school. Although not applicable to all, it's clear from past discussions here that some of those who had difficulty either didn't understand the system or expected Marriott to change the system to accommodate them. 

One other fact - at least I believe it to be fact: Some people get upset when something doesn't go well and they post their complaints on forums such as this. Thus, it's normal to see the complaints from those who have had difficulty. What is nowhere near as common, I believe, is for those (most of us) who routinely make reservations with no difficulty to rush to the keyboard and pass on the info that they have successfully made reservations for another year. Thus, I believe the complaints - which are very real - are very much disproportionate to the overall Marriott reservation experience. 

Finally, owning a single week is not a big disadvantage, unless you need a summer or other prime time week at a resort such as MOC with a long Platinum season. That doesn't fit your situation.

Thus, I recommend that you buy a MOC week, if you believe the vacation experience will fit your needs. I recommend that you not skip the opportunity merely because of concern - which I believe to be misplaced - that you will be unsuccessful in reserving the indicated weeks.


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## Eric (Jun 15, 2006)

Your right. Westin is the way to go !!

( most recent Westin post)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi all, 

Just received in today's mail, estimates for refurbishing buildings 32, 22, 34, 41 and 42, not as bad as I had feared:

$782.92 per week 3 bedrooms
$652.52 per week 2 bedrooms
$522.13 per week 1 bedroom
$391.74 per week studio

The project will include completely new furnishings, and remodeling the kitchens and bathrooms in buildings 33, 34, 41 and 42. 

Two-thirds favorable vote of the owners is required.

Lori



			
				mepiccolo said:
			
		

> I do not believe Dave and Tina are whiners and they had very legitimate gripes--the same ones we would have had if we had bought at MOC.  I do not believe it is as difficult to book in Kuaui as it is in Maui, which is reflected by the timeshare prices.
> 
> The bottom line is Marriott's reservation system is geared for the satisfaction of the multiple-week owners at the expense of the one-week owners.


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## Eric (Jun 15, 2006)

Now your just plain not making sense. The reason Maui is more  money is because it's harder to make reservations ? Hah ?

Maui is more money due to demand, PERIOD

Dave & Trina knew how MVCI worked when they bought. As long as they got their week, they would have loved MVCI. Once owners started to book before them, they screamed foul. Thats at the very least sounds like uneducated buyers. MVCI didn't trick them, make things unfair for them , etc. Read the rules and either buy or don't !! 



			
				mepiccolo said:
			
		

> I do not believe Dave and Tina are whiners and they had very legitimate gripes--the same ones we would have had if we had bought at MOC.  I do not believe it is as difficult to book in Kuaui as it is in Maui, which is reflected by the timeshare prices.  As usual, Dave is the voice of reason !!
> 
> The bottom line is Marriott's reservation system is geared for the satisfaction of the multiple-week owners at the expense of the one-week owners.


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## jwq387 (Jun 15, 2006)

Dave M said:
			
		

> If that's really the question, you should have no problem getting the week you want, especially for the second week in November, one of the slowest weeks of the year.
> 
> For something that is more useful than the hit-and-miss comments of the few that see this thread, consider getting more responses. Go to the *Users List* (link on above blue bar) and click on *Search Users* on the right side of the page. Then click on *Advanced Search* and enter the words *maui ocean* on the *Resorts Owned* line and click on *Search Now*. You'll find 36 TUGgers with one or more posts, all of whom own at MOC. You can send them all a short private message or e-mail message asking for help. Consider asking if they have had any difficulty reserving single weeks in early June or early November or at other non-school vacation times.
> 
> ...


I agree with Dave. Remember the 3/33 rule. If you have a complaint, you will tell 33 people. If you have a good customer service experience, you will only tell 3 people, on average. Nobody likes to read good news-too boring. I don't know Dave and Trina, and I am sure they have a leigitimate gripe-FOR PRIME SEASON RESERVATIONS ONLY. November and early June are NOT prime season in Maui, IMHO. Buy Marriott, you will not be disappointed.


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## mepiccolo (Jun 15, 2006)

You reiterated what I meant, Maui is more expensive than Kuaui due to popular demand, hence it is harder to make reservations in Maui than Kuaui  

I appreciate that there are a lot of happy Marriott owners and that is great - who can go wrong owning in the most sought after vacation destination.

The 13 month advantage to multiple week owners just rubs me the wrong way because I will never be a multiple week owner at Marriott so why join a game where I'll forever be the underdog?  In the future when my kids are in school I would join the masses in trying to get a summer week reserved from an availability of only 50% of the units.  I would probably get lucky sometimes but if I'm paying over $20k I want to be assured I can vacation when I want in the resort I paid to own at and not be pushed out by people who don't even own in Maui just because they own more than one week elsewhere.

Congratulations to all of you who own more than one week and have the 13-month advantage and therefore no worries about your vacation plans.


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## Eric (Jun 15, 2006)

Your missing the point. Demand has nothing to do with the reservation system. In fact Maui is not sold out but Kuaui is so getting a week statistically is easier in MAui since there are less owners per villa. It's simple math




			
				mepiccolo said:
			
		

> You reiterated what I meant, Maui is more expensive than Kuaui due to popular demand, hence it is harder to make reservations in Maui than Kuaui


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## Eric (Jun 15, 2006)

I think you need to do a bit more homework. You have to own at least 1 week in Maui to book at the 13 mth window. Just because they can book 50% of the inventory doesn't mean they do. I was told by a Rep that usually 10 or 15% get booked. 



I want to be assured I can vacation when I want in the resort I paid to own at and not be pushed out by people who don't even own in Maui just because they own more than one week elsewhere.


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## mepiccolo (Jun 15, 2006)

I am amused and curious if you are a Marriott salesperson?  

Regardless, nothing you have said has changed my mind.  I thought the rooms at MOC were really nice and the resort is beautiful but the 13-month advantage to multiple week owners is the pill I find too hard to swallow.  

I like the Westin's policy of only letting owners of the home resort to reserve 8 to 12 months ahead of the date they want to vacation leaving the owners happy.  As I understand by what you said someone need only own one week in Maui to reserve 2 weeks in Maui if they own elsewhere and are trading up.   That 2nd week advantage to them is still an insult to the people who paid more to own one week in Maui and are having a hard time getting a summer week, for example, because the exchangers are booking them up in advance ahead of the home resort owners.  Then they have to wait for these people to hopefully change their mind and rebook one of their weeks for another week???  I am too busy to add that stress to my plate-especially for a vacation!

When you speak to the salespeople at MOC obviously they don't go into the 13-month advantage with you, as a potential one week owner, to let you know you are standing in line behind all the multiple week owners.  From the other postings I've seen pretty much all of summer is considered a prime week.  I will decide when I want to go on vacation-I will not pay someone to decide it for me based on availability.

I leave you either as a happy MOC owner or a happy employee


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## Dean (Jun 15, 2006)

mepiccolo said:
			
		

> I do not believe Dave and Tina are whiners and they had very legitimate gripes--the same ones we would have had if we had bought at MOC.  I do not believe it is as difficult to book in Kuaui as it is in Maui, which is reflected by the timeshare prices.
> 
> The bottom line is Marriott's reservation system is geared for the satisfaction of the multiple-week owners at the expense of the one-week owners.


There are certainly risks and it may not be for you.  You should be comfortable with what you purchase.  However it appeared to me daventrina had unreasonable expectations from what i recall of the various discussions.  



> The 13 month advantage to multiple week owners just rubs me the wrong way because I will never be a multiple week owner at Marriott so why join a game where I'll forever be the underdog? In the future when my kids are in school I would join the masses in trying to get a summer week reserved from an availability of only 50% of the units. I would probably get lucky sometimes but if I'm paying over $20k I want to be assured I can vacation when I want in the resort I paid to own at and not be pushed out by people who don't even own in Maui just because they own more than one week elsewhere.
> 
> Congratulations to all of you who own more than one week and have the 13-month advantage and therefore no worries about your vacation plans.


Two ways to look at it I guess.  It is an advantages to own multiple weeks and to reserve under the 13 month option.  And if you're looking at top weeks there, it would hamper your chances quite a bit.  I took the other approach, I went out and bought a second week though I own at Grande Ocean, not in Maui.  To say no worries in reserving for 13 months out is overstatement.  If you want to take the us vs them stance as some have in the past, that is also your option.  

One thing you stated above is totally wrong.  No one can reserve a MMO week unless they own there.  The only question is when can they reserved.  Some felt like it was a violation of the rules as well as unreasonable to allow those who owned at MMO, but also owned elsewhere, to reserve at the 13 month window.  Wrong on both counts, but within their right be believe so.


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## Eric (Jun 15, 2006)

Yeah, thats it, I am trying to sell you a week. I am not a salesman but I would prefer you DIDN"T buy there and I am trying to get you to undertand the rules. Either you are explaining it wrong or you don't understand it !!
You say 
""because the exchangers are booking them up in advance ahead of the home resort owners""
What the heck are you talking about ? Exchangers cannot book Maui. It's not like the Westin system. ONLY MAUI OWNERS can book Maui. Please either learn the rules or explain them correctly before posting. Once more for the back row. NO EXCHANGER can bump a Maui owner from getting there week.
Second bit of mis-information. When a resort is sold out ALL the owners have to book a week. The fact that Maui is more popular does not make it any harder to book a week. The reason Maui is harder to book summer is the owners in Maui must like summer better than the owners in Kauai. NOT becuase it's higher demand... geez 





			
				mepiccolo said:
			
		

> I am amused and curious if you are a Marriott salesperson?
> 
> Regardless, nothing you have said has changed my mind.  I thought the rooms at MOC were really nice and the resort is beautiful but the 13-month advantage to multiple week owners is the pill I find too hard to swallow.
> 
> ...


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## sandesurf (Jun 15, 2006)

Okay, I'll admit it, I'm worried... We just bought at MOC and the ONLY time we can travel is during July or August. We DO NOT have the 13 mo. advantage. I plan on having two phones and the computer "ready" as soon as those lines open on the 12 month out day but just how "lucky" will we need to be to get there??
Any tips will be appreciated!


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## armlem2 (Jun 15, 2006)

mepiccolo said:
			
		

> .
> 
> I like the Westin's policy of only letting owners of the home resort to reserve 8 to 12 months ahead of the date they want to vacation leaving the owners happy. As I understand by what you said someone need only own one week in Maui to reserve 2 weeks in Maui if they own elsewhere and are trading up. That 2nd week advantage to them is still an insult to the people who paid more to own one week in Maui and are having a hard time getting a summer week, for example, because the exchangers are booking them up in advance ahead of the home resort owners. Then they have to wait for these people to hopefully change their mind and rebook one of their weeks for another week???
> 
> ...


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## Steve (Jun 15, 2006)

*A bit of clarification*

There have indeed been some misunderstandings in this thread.  

Let me try to clear one thing up.  A person who owns 1 week on Maui and 1 week somewhere else in the Marriott system CANNOT reserve 2 weeks on Maui at 13 months out.  This is not how the system works.

For example, I own a platinum week at Marriott's Manor Club.  Let's say I buy a platinum week at MOC.  Since I own 2 platinum Marriott weeks and the platinum seasons at the two resorts overlap, I can call at 13 months out (instead of 12 months out) and reserve my weeks AT MY RESPECTIVE resorts.  So if I want to book July 2007, for example, I can call right now in June 2006 and reserve 1 week at Manor Club starting July 1, 2007 followed by 1 week at Maui Ocean Club starting July 8, 2007.  

I cannot book 2 weeks on Maui nor 2 weeks at Manor Club.  I can only book what I own...and that is 1 week at MOC and 1 week at Manor Club.

If I want to stay 2 weeks on Maui (and zero weeks at Manor Club), then I have to put a request in through II to exchange my Manor Club week for the 2nd week on Maui.  ALL the owners at MOC...regardless of how many weeks they own...will be able to reserve their owned weeks with Marriott before I will even have a chance of getting my exchange through II.

I hope this helps!

Steve


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## mepiccolo (Jun 15, 2006)

Thanks all for clearing it up.  May everyone enjoy their respective Maui Vacations at their requested times.  We appreciate everyone's input.


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## daventrina (Jun 16, 2006)

sandesurf said:
			
		

> ... the ONLY time we can travel is during July or August. I plan on having two phones and the computer "ready" as soon as those lines open on the 12 month out day ...
> Any tips will be appreciated!


This is the biggest problem we had. We have to work with in the schedule of the school system that means we had to travel in July or August. The thing that was a killer for us was that we had to coordinate with our Embasys week and sometimes an exchange week also. To work with the Embassy and our schedule we needed a Satuday checkin that compounded the problem further. 
If you have a window of travel you should pick the first date in the July or August that you can use instead of picking a date in the end of your travel range. This will make it much easier to snag a reservation. Once you have one, you can always check to see if you can grab one at a later date that will work better withy your schedule. At least that way you will have a week that you can use. We found that when we complained enough that after the $250000 /year we pay for owner services, and the $125000/year we pay for reservations, and the $200000/year we pay for the front desk, and the nearly $2000000/year Marriott gets in management fees that they is no way they can justify charging us $29 to change the date of our reservation they would wave the change fee.
It could be worse. Our parents owned at Tahoe and needed to travel Thanksgiving week. Out of the 4 years that they  owned it, the only reservation that they were ever able to make was the one that the sales rep made for them when the signed the contract  

Additionally, you could work with the board to stop depositing peak travel weeks that owners at the resort want to use with II. This is a big contributing factor in the reservation problems at Maui (the same as with Tahoe).  For Maui, it makes no difference which week is deposited with II to exchange because the demand for the resort is so high.
If don't have or can't find the email addresses for the board, we can get them to you.


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## daventrina (Jun 16, 2006)

*Re: A bit of clarification*



			
				Steve said:
			
		

> There have indeed been some misunderstandings in this thread.
> Let me try to clear one thing up.  A person who owns 1 week on Maui and 1 week somewhere else in the Marriott system CANNOT reserve 2 weeks on Maui at 13 months out.  This is not how the system works.
> Steve



A lot of the confusion is created because MVCI does not follow the rules (and they are a legal bind document files with the State). Steve, your example is flawed in that the rules for MOC (and Timber Lodge, Aruba and several other resorts) are worded to* require more than one week owned AT THAT RESORT to make a reservation 13 months out AT THAT RESORT.* The MOC *rules (and many others) do not allow for a 13 month reservation at MOC when the consecutive week is at another resort*. _E.g. you cannot reserve one week at Palm Desert and the next at Maui 13 months out as far as the rules are concerned._ Additionally, *all reservation made 13 months out are required to be cancelled in there entirety if any one of the reservations are cancelled*. Furthermore, the *weeks reserved 13 months out cannot be exchanged and at Maui at least they can’t be rented* (at least as far as the rules go, but MVCI allows that to happen anyway). MVCI’s cooperate office and legal department as far as we know are still trying to sort out the mess that the sales department created when the changed the reservations policy with out changing the rules at all of the participating resorts. MVCI continues to ignore the rules of the resort and allow people to book 13 months out when they shouldn’t. For example say book Maui and Palm Desert as consecutive. We know that some are tempted to say you can’t, but there are owners on TUG that have said they have done just that. Even worse, there are owners that have stated that they have made reservations 13 months out by repeatedly calling reservations and demanding to make a reservation 13 months out just because they own more than one week. Eventually they harass the reservationists enough that they make the reservation for one week 13 months out. Again, that should never happen, but there are TUGgers that have said they have done it.

(We’ve been blasted more than enough for saying that :ignore OOPs we did it again, guess we’ll get blasted again…
_
We stand by our statement that if you own at WKORV (or many other resorts) there is a good chance that you would be unhappy at MOC._
_
We intended to keep this private, but as long as we’re going to get bashed, may as well say it anyway._
We had no clue as to how then internals of MVCI worked when we bought our week. We love the resort (well at least until they plant two new 12 story towers on it anyway). We bought our week resale from another developer. The previous owner traded it in for The Mona Loa Village on the Big Island. We thought that they were nuts. We couldn’t figure out why someone would trade in the Maui Marriott for the Mona Loa Village (or any other resort for that matter). And then we found out.

Making reservations with MVCI is an absolute nightmare. A large contributing factor is the way that the resort allows MVCI to give high demand weeks to II for exchange when there are owners at the resort that would like to use those weeks. This makes it more difficult for owners to get the weeks that they need at their resort. 

Marriott refuses to upgrade owners in their own resort. So for example, someone from Palm Desert paying half the maint. fees that we do in Maui get placed in an ocean front unit (while an owner at the resort remains in the ocean view/garden view room). The quality assurance rep told us that “if you want to be upgraded, you have to give your week to II and exchange back into your resort. We never upgrade owners in their resort.” We asked whey we couldn’t just pay the HOA the $99 and keep the money in our resort. She just said “we never upgrade owners in their own resort.” Marriott seems to cater to the exchange program. Those that are happiest are those that buy and generally trade out of their resort. _We just refuse to be treated second rate in our own resort._
We find it interesting when someone trades their XYZ resort (that is no where near a beach) into WKOVR (the nicest resort on the #1 island in the world) and then complains that they had a view of the parking lot because all of the ocean front units were given to people that own at the resort. 

MOC closes the pool at 8pm - they extend it until 9pm in the summer (BTW: the spa down the walk at the Starwood resorts are open till 11PM). The cost of running the pool is almost a million dollars a year (that works out to about $35/day for your week stay). We don’t spend our money to go to Maui to hang at the pool, but we really like to crash in the spa after dinner and a day of exploring. That is difficult to do when it’s closed by 8 or 9PM. 

The management fee Marriott collects works out to almost a third of the maint. fees (which are running almost $1300/yr for a 1BR). We feel that a 30% fee is just too high. The maint fees went from $800 to $1200 over the 3 years that we owned the resort. Meanwhile at EVR, the fees have gone from $590 to $650 over 4 years.

We felt that the property was crowded enough as it was, now they are building two new 12 story towers, one on each side of the existing buildings. And it appears that those owners will have rights to use the existing superpool, but it still isn't clear that the maint fees for these owners will be adjusted so the new towers will pick up their share of the pool costs. BTW the cost of the new units make the Westin look like a good deal.

The staff and management just don't seem to get the fact that the resort belongs to the owners. It still seems to run like a hotel. With the hotel operation gone, this may improve some. But we’re still not sure that the staff will ever figure out that their paycheck comes from the resort owners.


			
				Dean said:
			
		

> However it appeared to me daventrina had unreasonable expectations from what i recall of the various discussions.


We're not sure which of any of our expectations were unreasonable.

It is not unreasonable to expect to be able to stay at your resort when you need/want to
It is not unreasonable to expect to be treated as an owner in the resort that you own
It is not unreasonable to expect to be able to use the pool/spa that you spend $1000000/year on within reasonable hours.
It is not unreasonable to expect the company that manages the resort to follow the rules of the resort.
It is not unreasonable to expedt the fees charges to manage the resort to be reasonable
So which of our expectations was it that are unresonable?


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## Dave M (Jun 16, 2006)

*Clarification for those not familir with past discussions*

I believe that the information in the preceding post is incorrect, misleading and does not reflect reality.

There's no question, based on the post above and past posts dating way back to the old BBS, that D&T have been very unhappy with Marriott. As indicated, one source of unhappiness is that D&T's interpretation of the rules for 13-month reservations doesn't match Marriott's interpretation; nor does it match the actual language in the documents. 

We have been through the actual language - which has been quoted here - in previous discussions. That language, as D&T states, does allow owners of two or more weeks at MOC to make reservations 13 months in advance. What it doesn't say (and, thus D&T is incorrect) is that "The MOC rules (and many others) do not allow for a 13 month reservation at MOC when the consecutive week is at another resort."

Several of us encouraged D&T to take some legal action if they were truly convinced of their position, suggesting that if they were correct in their interpretation, they had likely been damaged and could be part of a landmark legal decision at no cost to them. (The loser, Marriott, if D&T was correct, would have to pay legal fees for the winner.) No such legal action was ever undertaken.

Marriott has stated its 13-month reservation policy for all Marriott resorts many times in writing. Such policy is currently stated in several places on the MVCI website (and the policy is reflected in the FAQs for this forum). There is no limitation anywhere in such stated polices requiring that multiple weeks have to be at the same resort to reserve such multiple weeks 13 months in advance.

Contrary to D&T's assertion, there is no evidence that "MVCI’s corporate office and legal department .... are still trying to sort out the mess that the sales department created when they changed the reservations policy without changing the rules at all of the participating resorts." That, I believe, is what D&T wishes were the case. But it isn't. The proof, coming long after D&T fought Marriott about this, is that Marriott continues to issue new statements reiterating their policy. That likely wouldn’t be happening if the legal gurus were “trying to sort out the mess”.

Perhaps the best example of Marriott’s definitive policy is contained in the summer 2005 issue of MVCI's _Shared Times_. That issue has a Q&A wherein *Marriott specifically states that an owner of weeks at different resorts may call 13-months in advance to reserve both weeks*, if reserved consecutively or concurrently. 

I’ll leave the other assertions in D&T’s post alone, other than to say they appear to show that D&T didn’t understand the system.


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## Eric (Jun 16, 2006)

*Re: A bit of clarification*

Thats easy. It was unreasonable of you to expect Marriott to change their rules which were clearly stating when you bought but you decided to ignore. It is unreasonable to complain when someone else beats you to a week when everyone has the same chances also. 








So which of our expectations was it that are unresonable?[/QUOTE]


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## daventrina (Jun 16, 2006)

*MOC rules and regulations*

Here is the reality of reservations at MOC.
These are the appropriate parts of Governing Documents of Maui Ocean Club as filed with the State of Hawaii and they are undisputable. These are the rules by which the resort is to be operated, not any contradictory policy implemented by MVCI as the management agent.
Maui Ocean Club
Governing Documents of Maui Ocean Club
Item # 12
Maui Ocean Club Vacation Ownership Program Rules
Part 25
Reservation and Use Rights
25.1 (c) Owners will have the ability to request a reservation for a 7-night stay for an accommodation for a check-in day as designated by Program Operator on a first come, first served basis, with other owners, beginning twelve (12) months in advance of the requested check-in day. Owners who own more than one ownership interest may reserve concurrent use periods, meaning two (2) or more units during the same use period, or consecuitive use periods meaning one (1) or more units for two (2) or more use periods in a row, for owner occupancy only, thirteen (13) months in advance of the first requested check-in for the first use period reserved, however, no more than fifty percent (50%) of the available non-developer inventory for each use period can be reserved more than one (1) year in advance in this manner. Any cancellation for a use period reserved more than one (1) year in advance in this manner must include all concurrent or consecuitive use periods reserved with the use period cancelled. 
Maui Ocean Club Vacation Ownership Program 
Declaration of Covenants, Conditions, and Restrictions
Appendix 1
Definitions and Exhibits
70. "Ownership Interest" shall mean and include certain indivisible and inseparable rights or interests including (i) an Every Year Ownership Share or Every Other Year Ownership Share in one of the units, (ii) for each Ownership Interest, the right to reserve and use for a period of approximately one (1) week, a unit in the program every year or every other year, and (iii) membership in the association. 
10. "Association" shall mean the Maui Ocean Club Vacation Owners Association consisting of all owners of ownership interests in the program acting as a group in accordance with the program documents.
Chapter 4
4.10 B. 2.The Program Operator shall be always subject to the direction of the Board.



> _*Owners* who own  *more than one ownership interest* may reserve concurrent  ... or consecutive use periods ... , for owner occupancy only, thirteen (13) months in advance...
> 
> *"Ownership Interest"* shall mean and include certain indivisible and inseparable rights or interests including (i) an Every Year Ownership Share or Every Other Year Ownership Share in one of the units, (ii) for each Ownership Interest, the right to reserve and use for a period of approximately one (1) week, a unit in the program every year or every other year, and (iii) membership in the association.
> 
> *"Association"* shall mean the *Maui Ocean Club Vacation Owners Association* consisting of all owners of ownership interests in the program acting as a group in accordance with the program documents._


The language is clear.  13 month reservations require (as stated in the rules):
1) An owner with multiple ownership interests.
2) Ownership Interest means an EY or EOY ownership share with reservation privileges in the program (here program means MOC not MVCI) and membership in the association.
3) Association specifically means the Maui Ocean Club Vacation Owners Association. Only MOC owners can belong to the Ocean Club Vacation Owners Association.

Therefore it follows that multiple week ownership at MOC is required to make 13 month reservations, for owner occupancy only.
These are the reservations rules (they are not guidelines) as filed with the Land Court of Hawaii. 

The only way that theses rules can be changed is by the Maui Ocean Club Vacation Owners Association with the consent of a majority of the owners. MVCI can’t just decide that they want anyone with two weeks anywhere reserve 13 month out. 
The 13 month rule was put in place for the specific and sole purpose of allowing multiple MOC owners to use their weeks together.
There are no escape clauses that indicate, unless MVCI decides otherwise.


----------



## daventrina (Jun 16, 2006)

*D&T's assertion evidence*



			
				Dave M said:
			
		

> Contrary to D&T's assertion, there is no evidence that "MVCI’s corporate office and legal department .... ...
> Perhaps the best example of Marriott’s definitive policy is contained in the summer 2005 issue of MVCI's _Shared Times_. That issue has a Q&A wherein *Marriott specifically states that an owner of weeks at different resorts may call 13-months in advance to reserve both weeks*, if reserved consecutively or concurrently. ....


_Shared Times_ are not the governing documents of the Resort and have no bearing on its operation. As you will see below, MVCI is reviewing the reservations policies of all of the resorts and will then decide on how to resolve the issues discovered in the analysis. The opinions of those here on this board, while interesting, have no bearing on the operation of the resort. Those of the HOA do and their interpitation of the .governing documents are in agreement with ours. Additionally, an investigation into the reservations during the week of our stay discovered that in fact all of the 13 month reservations were in compliance with the resorts' rules wherein both week must be owned at the resort.

Additionally, you will notice that owners are no longer receiving marketing material stating the following :_"Visit two destinations (or more!) in the same year. In most cases, reserve your vacation weeks 13 months in advance rather than the standard 12 months. "_
If it takes a follow up with Jenna Stallard to determine that the review of all of the resort documents is still in progress we can do that, but we feel that it is not necessary.

Additionally, we understand that the policy wherein II exchanges into MOC getting the best rooms in the house is also being (or has been) changed.

Based on the investigation into 13 month reservations, we could debate the impacts of 13 month reservation on the ability of single week owners. 

As for evidence, below is the email trail that we still have:
(this may be a bad idea, but were tired of being told we have our heads in the sand)
To: dntanderson@
From:     "chiefcustomer.officer@vacationclub.com" <chiefcustomer.officer@vacationclub.com>

Subject: Marriott Vacation Club International
Dear Mr. Anderson,  

Thank you for taking the time to bring this matter to my
attention.

I certainly would like your concerns to be addressed.
Please note I have asked a member
of my Management Team to respond to you appropriately.
Please look forward to a response within five business days.

Mr. Anderson, I sincerely apologize for the frustration
and difficult you have experienced.

Kind regards
Pete Watzka, 
Chief Customer Officer, 
Marriott Vacation Club International
---------------


Mr. & Mrs. Anderson:

Thank you for your recent email correspondence.  Working as a Customer Relations Manager for Mr. Watzka, he asked that I respond to you on his behalf.

I understand that you are speaking with Cynthia Mather regarding the concerns you raised in your email.  I have reviewed your comments at great length and we are looking into the points you raised.  If you would allow us time to investigate, we would appreciate your patience.

Thank you again for taking the time to bring this matter to our attention.  In the meantime, should you need to reach me, my telephone number is 800-936-6824. 

Regards,
Jenna Stallard
Customer Relations Manager
Office of the Chief Customer Officer, Peter J. Watzka
Marriott Vacation Club International
====================================
From: Anderson, Trina 
To: Stallard, Jenna
Subject:

Hi Jenna,

Just wondering if you have come up with a solution to the 13 month
problem? This seems to be getting worse due to the resent marketing
promotion, owners have received in the mail.

We would like to know were Marriott stands on this issue ASAP.

Trina Anderson

From: Stallard, Jenna [mailto:Jenna.Stallard@vacationclub.com]
Sent: Fri 9/24/2004 8:19 AM
To: Anderson, Trina
Subject: Marriott Vacation Club International

Mr. & Mrs. Anderson:

Thank you for your patience while we research your concerns regarding
the 13 month booking timeframe at Maui Ocean Club.

We researched how many multiple week owners utilized the 13 months out
window for your requested check in date at Maui Ocean Club, and of those
that did, how many were Maui Ocean Club multiple week owners. For the
check in dates of July 29, 30 and 31, 2005 there are 19 reservations for
your floor plan and view type.  Of those 19 reservations, 3 were made at
13 months out by multiple week owners.  All 3 multiple week owners, own
multiple weeks at Maui Ocean Club.

The governing documents for our 50 + resorts are not exactly the same.
To provide the best possible service to our owners and to keep
reservation costs to a minimum, we have a single policy for reservation
timeframes.  Due to your inquiry and feedback, we are now in the process
of reviewing the reservation procedures for each of our resorts.  As you
can imagine, this will take some time.  Once our analysis is complete,
we will determine what changes, if any, need to be made to our processes
and will communicate any changes to those owners affected.

Mr. & Mrs. Anderson, thank you again for your patience.  We certainly
appreciate you taking the time to bring this matter to our attention.
Please let me know if you have any further questions,
jenna.stallard@vacationclub.com.

Regards,

Jenna Stallard
Customer Relations Manager
Office of the Chief Customer Officer, Peter J. Watzka
Marriott Vacation Club International


================================
----------
Dave, thank you for keeping me abreast of your conversations with Marriott.
I do believe you are making them revisit the language in the various
Association's covenants.  It will be most interesting to see what they come
up with as far as an answer to your questions.  Hopefully it will change the
way owner's are allowed to book outside their owned property. Good sleuthing
of the covenants by Trina and yourself.  

Mark
(Mark is the HOA President)
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 2:21 PM
To: Cynthia Mather; Mark Neumann
Cc: Trina Anderson
Subject: Fwd: Marriott Vacation Club International


----------



## daventrina (Jun 16, 2006)

*Re: A bit of clarification*



			
				Eric said:
			
		

> Thats easy. It was unreasonable of you to expect Marriott to change their rules which were clearly stating when you bought but you decided to ignore. ?


[/QUOTE]
The rules that we signed up for are detailed above. They are not the policy that MVCI decided to implement after the fact  MVCIs poor management of inventory is major issue in owners difficulty securing the dates that they need.


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## englishowner (Jun 16, 2006)

This to me seems like a battle that can't be won by either side. There are, obviously, within a huge system, contented owners and also many people who feel they've paid for something special and not quite got what they were looking for, whether what they were looking for was reasonable or not. I am a very happy owner but perhaps I have the advantage of being an owner in Europe where the competition for the *big* weeks doesn't seem so fierce. Daventrina have quite obviously got some very serious issues and perhaps the best thing they did was to sell their week and stay within a system they like and are comfortable with, but this should not be enough to put everyone off buying into Marriott. On the whole, the system seems to work out ok, for the majority, so anyone considering a purchase perhaps should research these forums and others to gather as much info as they can, then make an informed decision, it might not always work out, but what the hell, no ones talking about life and death. Just my two penneth worth, quite happy to be shot down in flames!


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## mepiccolo (Jun 16, 2006)

Thank you again Dave and Trina, for sharing your experience.  One thing I didn't mention before which played a part on our believing we would have a difficult time planning our vacation was that we were looking to buy an oceanfront unit.  Since there are limited oceanfront units (compared to the hundreds of oceanview units) we definitely would have less chance of trying to book in the summer months with only 50% of the rooms left available then.

Again, I have nothing against the resort itself, the rooms were nice and the property is beautiful so a pat on the back to all the happy owners there.

I'm just going to stick with the Westin because I believe their policy of only allowing the home resort owners to book from 8-12 months out keeps the owners first in line, which is the way it should be.  Also, the Westin's policy is that if an ocean front room is available it is given only to ocean view owners of the property, not to anyone renting or exchanging in.  For the amount of money people pay on maintenance fees (especially Maui being the most expensive) an owner should be treated better than exchangers or renters.  Until Marriott figures that out it's always going to have several unhappy owners because at some point every owner is going to not be able to book their week when they want and that's a lot of money spent to not be able to vacation when you want, especially when you know there are II exchangers who are vacationing there and they paid like half of what you paid for their timeshare and maintenance fees.


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## Eric (Jun 16, 2006)

I am thinking before you do anything, you need to take a math class. The oceanfront units have the same % of owners as the oceanview units. Let me speak in 5th grade math terms. 
If there are 100 units and 100 owners, they have the same % of getting a unit as if there were 10 units and 10 owners. 
Also as DaveTrina mentioned, the average week does not lose any where near 50% of the inventory at the 13 month window. 
You really should get a better grasp on how ANY system works mathematically before you invest any more money. 




Since there are limited oceanfront units (compared to the hundreds of oceanview units) we definitely would have less chance of trying to book in the summer months with only 50% of the rooms left available then.


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## Eric (Jun 16, 2006)

Marriott Maui owner are the only owners allowed to book at 12 months out so what exactly is your point again ?




I'm just going to stick with the Westin because I believe their policy of only allowing the home resort owners to book from 8-12 months out keeps the owners first in line, which is the way it should be.


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## Dave M (Jun 16, 2006)

My suggestion to those who may be concerned that Marriott might change its policy on the 13-month reservation procedure is to consider how old the correspondence is the D&T quotes: The dates are in 2004, with no apparent follow-up from Marriott since then and no resolution in D&T's favor.


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## MikeM132 (Jun 16, 2006)

Well, now I know at least somebody reads those books they give you when you buy a week! 
In all honesty, I have read and re-read the above D&T post and can see nowhere that "ownership interest" is specific to MOC. On the other hand, I can see nowhere that "ownership interest" is MCVI, either! 
We were promised a 13 month window to reserve 2 weeks consecutive/concurrent and we shall see how it works out (as one of them is MOC). I do not expect a problem. 
I assume the 50% rule is put there so that us multiple-week owners can't block out the folks who only have one week and might want to go on vacation, too.


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## daventrina (Jun 16, 2006)

mepiccolo said:
			
		

> ... we were looking to buy an oceanfront unit.  Since there are limited oceanfront units (compared to the hundreds of oceanview units)...


That is a problem that won't go away. A big part of the problems that we had with reservations is that we owned garden view and there were at the time only 19 units. With the other two towers complete, there are a lot more units available and that should be less of an issue. On the other hand, the number of ocean front units is small and no more were added when that part of the resort was built out. The good news is that the owners of the ocean front units seem to be more balanced in their use over the year and seem to not has as big an issue.

Our biggest reasons for selling had little to do with reservations and room assignments (these issues can be fixed), and have very little impact on most any other owner. 
Our biggest issues were that were show stoppers were:

The beach in front of the resort in practice turned out to be non-diveable. Some of us just didn't feel comfortable swimming through the surf to the dive site. On the other hand, the Westin and Embassy have fantastic dive sites in front of the resort. It may sound silly, but for us Looking over the dive site during breakfast on the lanai and then running downstair to dive turned out to be a big deal. It's just really cool.

MVCI had no way to save or borrow  reservations from one year to another. Two of our last three trips we have borrowed/saved to make a two week stay EOY instead of a one week stay every year. SunOptions have worked well for us.

We decided that the new towers would make the resort just too crowde for us.

That's why we said if you own at WKORV there is a good chance that you would be unhappy at MOC. 
Likewise happy owners at Marriott may not be happy and Embassy.


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## mepiccolo (Jun 16, 2006)

You keep insulting my intelligence which I find interesting in that I have not once insulted you or made disparaging remarks towards you, or for that matter the resort.  I am quite confident in my mental capacity and decision-making abilities so maybe your insulting communication style says more about you than about me.   I just came back from Maui and am floating too high for you to steal my spirit of aloha  

Either way if I may now decide to buy Marriott just so I can request a room next to you Aloha


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## tmcasey (Jun 16, 2006)

To break the 3/33 rule and to assure some folks...  I am a recent MMOV owner and I recieved a reservation for the week of July 28th on my first attempt and within a 1 week had a second ajoining week booked (traded the lock off) for a week at Kolina! 

Casey


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## daventrina (Jun 16, 2006)

Dave M said:
			
		

> ...The dates are in 2004, with no apparent follow-up from Marriott since then and no resolution in D&T's favor.


Whatever...  We'll ask for an update...


			
				Eric said:
			
		

> ... The oceanfront units have the same % of owners as the oceanview units. Let me speak in 5th grade math terms.
> If there are 100 units and 100 owners, they have the same % of getting a unit as if there were 10 units and 10 owners.
> ....


Did you think that the demographics are different and the way and when each of the view owners use their week may be different.
GV - less money, smaller kids, have to travel when school is out.
OC - Bigger pool of people, averages out better.
DOF- Much more money, travel when they want, less dictated by school schedules.


			
				tmcasey said:
			
		

> ...  I am a recent MMOV owner and I recieved a reservation for the week of July 28th on my first attempt and within a 1 week had a second ajoining week booked (traded the lock off) for a week at Kolina! Casey


It's great to see that there is an improvement in the reservations issues. It is nice to see that owners are able to get what they need. Is that 07?
There is a number of MOC owners that were ready to sell when we did. We encourged them to sit tight and see what happened because many of us were confident that MVCI would iron out some of the reservation issues. Glad to see that it is improving.


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## daventrina (Jun 16, 2006)

MikeM132 said:
			
		

> ...
> In all honesty, I have read and re-read the above D&T post and can see nowhere that "ownership interest" is specific to MOC. ....


The MOC CC&Rs define specifically how the program should work.

Let's try to explain this step by step...
1.    
        quote:
________________________________

        "Owners" who own more than one "ownership interest"
        may reserve concurrent ... or consecutive use periods
        ... , for owner occupancy only, thirteen (13) months
        in advance...
________________________________
    You have to have more than one ownership interest . Think that we all understand and agree on this. For owner occupancy should be clear (not for rent or exchange - The owner or someone traveling with the owner needs to occupy the unit). While Maui and Aruba do, some resorts, like Timber Lodge, don't seem contain the owner only clause.

2.    
        quote:
________________________________
        Item No. 7
        Maui Ocean Club Vacation Ownership Program Declaration of Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions

        Marriott Ownership Resorts, INC. "MORI"
        In this document MORI is called the "Developer" of the Maui Ocean Club Vacation Ownership Program ("The Program").

________________________________
    Here "The Program" is clearly defined as the Maui Ocean Club Vacation Ownership Program e.g. MOC.

3.    
        quote:
________________________________
        "Association" shall mean the Maui Ocean Club Vacation
        Owners Association consisting of all owners of ownership interests in the program ... .
________________________________
   It should be clear that the "Association" is MOCVOA. Only Maui "owner interests" can belong to the MOCVOA.

4.    
        quote:
________________________________
        "Ownership Interest" shall mean ... (ii) for each Ownership Interest, the right to reserve ... a unit in the program..., and (iii) membership in the association.
________________________________
    The "Ownership Interest" definition has two restrictive clauses that each on their own restricts the meaning to an owner at MOC. First, an Ownership Interests can reserve units in "the program" (defined above to specifically mean the Maui Ocean Club Vacation Ownership Program). Second, Ownership Interests belong to the MOCVOA. Only Ownership Interests at Maui Ocean Club can do either of these things.

5.    In order to make 13 month reservations, per item 1, more than one of item 4 ( "Ownership Interest" ) are required. Based on item 2 and item 3, it should be clear that the more than one "Ownership Interest" must be at Maui Ocean Club only.

6.    
    -----------------------------------------------------
    The 13 month rule was put in place for the specific
    and sole purpose of allowing multiple week MOC owners
    to use their weeks together. These are the
    reservations rules for MOC (they are not guidelines for MVCI)
    as filed with the Land Court of Hawaii as the governing documents of the Maui Ocean Club.

    There is no provision that we have been able to locate in the MOC
    CC&Rs wherein owners with weeks at other resorts are
    able to exercise the 13 month reservation exemption.
    As others seem to believe that these exemptions for other resorts exists, please provide
    that documentation from the MOC CC&Rs that provides this ability.

The only way that theses rules can be changed is by
the Maui Ocean Club Vacation Owners Association with
the consent of a majority of the owners. MVCI can't
just decide that they want anyone with two weeks
anywhere reserve 13 month out.


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## Eric (Jun 16, 2006)

Is not a matter of insulting your intelligence. Its a matter of you making comments that have no basis.I have not given wrong information. Almost everything you said is wrong. If you don't like the resort or reservation system, thats your choice. When you make misinformed comments like it's harder to book a view with less room not understanding THATS WRONG, you lose all credibility. This BBS is about facts. Most of your facts are wrong and if you use them to make a decision, that doesn't make any sense.  3 things to ask you

1. Do you understand demand of an area is not a determining factor when booking a sold out resort ?
2. Do you understand you cannot use the 13 months window to book 2 weeks in Maui  if both are not owned in Maui ?
3. Do you understand it's not harder to book a view with less units if both views are sold out ?

If you understand this, we are getting somewhere. 








			
				mepiccolo said:
			
		

> You keep insulting my intelligence which I find interesting in that I have not once insulted you or made disparaging remarks towards you, or for that matter the resort.  I am quite confident in my mental capacity and decision-making abilities so maybe your insulting communication style says more about you than about me.   I just came back from Maui and am floating too high for you to steal my spirit of aloha
> 
> Either way if I may now decide to buy Marriott just so I can request a room next to you Aloha


----------



## daventrina (Jun 16, 2006)

mepiccolo said:
			
		

> ... I just came back from Maui ...


How was your trip????


----------



## GaryDouglas (Jun 16, 2006)

Eric,
I am afraid to say you are coming off a bit strident, if not rude.  You have good points and if you could find a better way to phrase them, they would be more readily recieved and appreciated.
The internet has a tendency to release inhibitions that would normally stay in place if we were to have the same conversation "face to face".  We should try and resist this.
How about if we try to communicate with each other like we were talking to our Mothers.  You wouldn't talk this way to your favorite mom, would you?


----------



## Dean (Jun 16, 2006)

D&T, to address some of your information posted.  In spite of your feelings to the contrary, you're post clearly does not limit the 13 month reservations to owners only at that resort.  It simply says those who own multiple weeks.  Your interpretation is that they must be multiple weeks at that resort, mine and Marriott's are different.  I'll go with Marriott's.  Besides, even if filed and in place at the time of purchase, it's pretty easy to change the rules and regulations.  The BOD could easily do it on their own if the need were actually there.

As you stated, you clearly had a very restrictive booking need at likely the most difficult Marriott to book top weeks.  You further admitted that you bought without understanding and I'm guessing, without reading those documents you quote without completely understanding even now.  IMO, a small fee to change your week is reasonable.  There is cost to the system to do so and it's only fair that the person causing the cost pay it.  While they could likely raise everyone's fees by $1 and then not charge a change fee, I'd rather they charge those getting the benefit.  

I don't think Marriott could limit the weeks being deposited like some others do, at least not without a dramatic overhaul to the entire system.  It is unreasonable for an owner to expect an upgrade.  You should buy what you feel is best and be happy with it.  IMO, it's preferable for an owner at the lowest resort in an off season week who exchanged in to get the better unit that for one to say buy garden view and get ocean front for example.  But it's a resort decision, each resort is slightly different in this regard.  


> We're not sure which of any of our expectations were unreasonable.
> It is not unreasonable to expect to be able to stay at your resort when you need/want to
> It is not unreasonable to expect to be treated as an owner in the resort that you own
> It is not unreasonable to expect to be able to use the pool/spa that you spend $1000000/year on within reasonable hours.
> ...


Other than the pool hours, I'd say they fulfilled their side along the way.  As for the pool, I had the same complaint when we stayed there prior to the timeshare conversion, somewhere around 1998 or so.  At least at this point it is more of a timeshare decision and not a corporate decision.

I am truly sorry you had such a bad experience but IMO, much of it was avoidable on your part.  And some of it was generated by your misinterpretation of what was appropriate and what wasn't and your subsequent stress in approaching it.


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## camachinist (Jun 16, 2006)

Just imagine if a whole subcommunity of Marriott owners purchased blue/silver weeks, at little to no capital investment, that happened to match the seasons of their hard-to-reserve intervals to take advantage of the 13 month rule.

Then imagine Marriott changed the rules 

I recall another such circumstantial strategy in TUG's past....

D&T, I feel your pain. Our governing documents say exactly the same thing as yours, and I actually read the majority of them during our cooling-off period when we bought. I remember reporting on the old board regarding the headache they gave me. I decided there are other ways to even the score with Marriott. It's a job I enjoy 

The problem now is timing the resale to extract maximum total value 

Pat


----------



## daventrina (Jun 17, 2006)

Dean said:
			
		

> D&T, to address some of your information posted.  In spite of your feelings to the contrary, you're post clearly does not limit the 13 month reservations to owners only at that resort.  It simply says those who own multiple weeks.  ....


No it doesn't, but it doesn't really matter what we think. The Maui HOA board understands it the same as we do and that is what really matters. And it is probably of little impact to single week owners in many cases. The biggest impact would be on legit multi week owners not being able to reserve because supply was allocated to those that should not have been able to reserve.


			
				camachinist said:
			
		

> D&T, I feel your pain. Our governing documents say exactly the same thing as yours, ...
> Pat


Thanks but we don't have much pain anymore. We got in, used it, got out, didn't loose much, added a matching week up the street. 
The ones that really got pained are folks like our parents.  They bought retail, have never been able to stay at their resort (Timber Lodge) in the four years that they owned it.  Got so frustrated and fed up that they let Marriott take it back. They lost a bunch of money and took a hit on their credit.


----------



## Dean (Jun 17, 2006)

daventrina said:
			
		

> No id doesn't, but it doesn't really matter what we think. The Maui HOA board understands it the same as we do and that is what really matters. And it is probably of little impact to single week owners in many cases. The biggest impact would be on legit multi week owners not being able to reserve because supply was allocated to those that should not have been able to reserve.


That's interesting since they are accepting 13 month reservations.  My guess is they were humoring you when you complained as did Marriott in the info you posted above.  I disagree on the affects of the 13 month rule.  I think it has a larger impact than your statement suggests, esp. at  the Maui resort due to the number of owners that could potentially be vying for the same week.  MMC actually reserves more like a points resort due to it's seasonality and platinum year round situation.  Even the platinum plus owners can book year around from what I've been told.  Talk about something to be upset about, another owners could book your week but you can't book theirs.  I put my money where my mouth is and bought an extra week and it's likely less important at GO than for Maui.  As I've suggested before on similar threads, I'D PREFER YOUR INTERPRETATION, it would be to my advantage.


----------



## MikeM132 (Jun 17, 2006)

D&T..I feeling my head ready to explode! You can repeat the language in that owners document all you want (I have a copy here, too). You are basing everything on the meaning of "ownership interest" meaning _only_ MOC, while it does not specifically say that. 
If you are going to split legal hairs over language, you can never assume something means something else unless it is spelled out clearly. This, the way I read it, does not. 
Marriott seems to interperet this language to mean "ownership interest" in more than one MCVI property, not just MOC. That is also what I have been told by them several times. 
Once again, I am only very recently a multiple-week owner and will have to see what results I get with reservations for 2008 for Hawaii (the BIG TEST!).


----------



## camachinist (Jun 17, 2006)

> Marriott seems to interperet this language to mean "ownership interest" in more than one MCVI property, not just MOC. That is also what I have been told by them several times.




My deed says I own at Newport Coast only, and that is the property I pay real estate taxes for. I don't own an interest in MVCI or Marriott or the Martian Gaming Club. Just one resort, deeded property, fee simple. That's what "ownership interest" means to any reasonable person. If I want to stay at another MVCI property, I must "exchange" for a "fee", but I can never own there, unless I buy there, creating yet another "ownership interest" in that resort. If Marriott were a pure points system, where every owner purchased an "interest" in every resort in the system, then the rule would be interpreted (based on current observed interpretation by MVCI) accurately, IMO. Perhaps that's what they have in mind 

Marriott is doing what is best for them (the corporation); never lose sight of that. Right now that means interpreting the "rules" the way the majority here likes. Things change. The trick is seeing the changes coming 

Pat


----------



## Dean (Jun 17, 2006)

camachinist said:
			
		

> My deed says I own at Newport Coast only, and that is the property I pay real estate taxes for. I don't own an interest in MVCI or Marriott or the Martian Gaming Club. Just one resort, deeded property, fee simple. That's what "ownership interest" means to any reasonable person. If I want to stay at another MVCI property, I must "exchange" for a "fee", but I can never own there, unless I buy there, creating yet another "ownership interest" in that resort. If Marriott were a pure points system, where every owner purchased an "interest" in every resort in the system, then the rule would be interpreted accurately, IMO. Perhaps that's what they have in mind
> 
> Marriott is doing what is best for them (the corporation); never lose sight of that. Right now that means interpreting the "rules" the way the majority here likes. Things change. The trick is seeing the changes coming
> 
> Pat


Pat, no one is reserving at a resort they don't own.  The only question is when can you reserve what you do own.  In this case, someone who owns at resort A and resort B and meets the 13 month rules, can book then.  I don't have any doubt that this rule is a marketing tool to allow Marriott to sell extra weeks to existing owners.  But I think they've solidified the definition by their number of years of practice.  Let me give a business analogy.  Lets say there is an employee benefit listed and the company ignores it as do the employees.  After a while, the current status becomes the new policy by default.


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## daventrina (Jun 17, 2006)

MikeM132 said:
			
		

> You are basing everything on the meaning of "ownership interest" meaning _only_ MOC, while it does not specifically say that....


YES IT DOES! 
_"Ownership Interest" shall mean and include certain indivisible and inseparable rights or interests including (i) an Every Year Ownership Share or Every Other Year Ownership Share in one of the units, (ii) for each Ownership Interest, the right to reserve and use for a period of approximately one (1) week, a unit in the program every year or every other year, and (iii) membership in the association.
_​ONLY PEOPLE THAT OWN AT MOC can do all of the above! (indivisible and inseparable rights)


Only owners at MOC can have a MOC deed of ownership
Only owners with a deed at MOC can you reserve a week at MOC
Only owners at MOC can belong to the MOC association
If you can't do all those (indivisible and inseparable), you don't have an "ownership interest"

It doesn't get much simpler that!


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## wsrobinson (Jun 17, 2006)

Does the multiple week rule apply to the same resort or can you own multiple weeks at different resorts and reserve 13 mos. in advance?  I own at Monarch and just bout Surf Watch.  Can I reserve 13 mos ahead or just 12?  Thanks.


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2006)

wsrobinson said:
			
		

> Does the multiple week rule apply to the same resort or can you own multiple weeks at different resorts and reserve 13 mos. in advance?  I own at Monarch and just bout Surf Watch.  Can I reserve 13 mos ahead or just 12?  Thanks.




You can own at different resorts as long as the seasons you own overlap. 

Indeed, this is what part of the fuss here is about.  A few posters in this thread interpret the wording in Marriott documents to mean that you must own 2 or more weeks at the same resort in order to book reservations at 13 months out.

However, Marriott interprets their documents...and they have a stated policy...of allowing Marriott owners at different resorts to reserve 13 months ahead of time as long as the seasons overlap and the weeks are booked consecutively.

Steve


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## Dean (Jun 17, 2006)

wsrobinson said:
			
		

> Does the multiple week rule apply to the same resort or can you own multiple weeks at different resorts and reserve 13 mos. in advance?  I own at Monarch and just bout Surf Watch.  Can I reserve 13 mos ahead or just 12?  Thanks.


One of the inconsistencies is that you must actually reserve multiple weeks.  One cannot be a fixed week such as many at Monarch, it is only for floating week owners.


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## skifast (Jun 18, 2006)

Going back to the original intent of the post.  We own one week at MOC, and have not had a problem getting reservations.  Followed daneandtrina's adventure, but we have nothing but good things to say about our experiences. 
Guess we have been lucky!
Regarding upgrades, I feel strongly both ways.  It would be nice to get that oceanfront unit, but if you really want an oceanfront, you should buy your view.  And I really hate it when people say "we're owners", like that entitles them to not follow the rules.:annoyed: 
Lastly, why did the OP even start this thread?  It appears he was never interested, and is just stirring the pot.  Maybe the moderators should consider closing this thread.


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## mepiccolo (Jun 18, 2006)

We're the original posters and yes, we were seriously looking to buy an oceanfront unit at the Marriott and had even made an offer to someone selling resale.  However, as we had just left Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas and had had an A+ experience over there we were concerned about how crowded Marriott might feel after WOKRV and, because we had previously read several threads on the Marriott site about owners being angry about not being able to book the week they wanted we did want to get current owners' opinions about owning at MOC.  Dave and Trina were kind enough to send us a private message which had several factors we also would not have been happy about.  When we thought about the main reason we were buying MOC it was for the pool area for the kids and because the price was less than WOKRV.  But within a year WOKRV North will have a new pool area similar to MOC that our kids can use when we stay at WOKRV so that incentive was gone.  Then after re-reading several posts about the stressful Marriott reservation system we just decided we'd stay with what we knew we were happy with and buy a second week at WKORV instead.  It was just a personal choice and we are grateful for all the input we received... didn't realize it would cause such a commotion.  I don't care if this thread is taken off because our choice is made but if it was wouldn't that be like censoring simply because someone doesn't like what they read.


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## Kilby5924 (Jun 18, 2006)

Since TUG has been so helpful you might consider joining. That way you can read the reviews of people who have stayed at Moc and the Westin. That way you would not get the opinion of just one disgruntled owner.
Sheldon


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## Stefa (Jun 18, 2006)

Kilby5924 said:
			
		

> Since TUG has been so helpful you might consider joining. That way you can read the reviews of people who have stayed at Moc and the Westin. That way you would not get the opinion of just one disgruntled owner.
> Sheldon



Maybe we should just let this go.  If the OP is happy at the Westin then we TUGgers have done our job.  I also sent the OP a private message where I made the point that changing resorts in the middle of your vacation isn't always worth the fuss just to save some $$, especially given that the resorts in question are (I believe) relatively close.  

While I certainly hope most MOC owners are happier than D&T, I would think most Westin owners are also quite happy.  The important thing is that the OP is satisfied with their future purchase and I believe this is the case.  If someday they decide to look into Marriott again, TUG will still be here to help them out.


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## PerryM (Jun 18, 2006)

*Ask away*

Mepiccolo,

Your question is great – it shows a happy WKORV owner who is thinking of adding more weeks in Maui and is considering MOC as an alternative.  You are correct in spotting problems that many MOC owners have voiced since MOC opened.

As someone who thoroughly loves to dissect and exploit systems, the Marriott system is a great system to exploit.  I see several areas to exploit:

1)	MOC has weeks 1 – 51 all Platinum season – a major blunder for Marriott and an opportunity for us.  (Week 52 is fixed but week 51 is still a mystery to me)

2)	The first day of the week-end (Friday in most cases) has ALL owners who what that week calling in or clicking in a 8 AM CST to the second.  This, to me, was just pouring gasoline on top of a smoldering fire.  You can use this fact to your advantage.

3)	MOC is a lock-out which opens endless possibilities to the owner.

4)	The 13 month Marriott reservation policy can be used to your advantage to get any week at MOC you want (except week 52)

We have toured WKORV and find it superior to the MOC (in terms of the inside furnishings and the multiple kitchens they have) – we compare the two each year.  To me there is no comparison to the insides of the Westin as opposed to the hotel retrofit of MOC.  The new dual towers is another story altogether as is their prices.

MOC is cheaper to buy than the Westin (resale) and has the ability to exchange into by other Marriotts.  I’m going to guess that given enough time and resources the MOC can offer you 5-star accommodations for much much less than the Westin.

The key question is do you want to take the time and risk to do this?  I recommend that you do more research before making such a very expensive decision.  If you are flexible there are ways to get to the MOC for pennies on the dollar versus buying there – if you are flexible.

Now none of this is valid if you find the insides of the MOC not up to your standards.  I’d suggest that you do a side by side comparison each year you visit Maui – we do.  I’m looking forward to learning about the new towers which ARE a direct comparison to your Westin at the same price.  They have some outstanding capabilities there that the old MOC does not offer.  You can get fixed weeks and never face the problems of the old MOC.

Marriott has addressed the problems brought up by folks here with those new towers – you really need to investigate them as do I in a few weeks.

For every objection, problem, annoyance there is normally a way to exploit it to your advantage.  Knowledge is the key fact determining the quality and quantity of your vacations.

Keep asking questions – that’s how we all learn.


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## Dean (Jun 18, 2006)

I haven't reviewed the paperwork for MMC but I have for GO, Ocean Watch and Surfwatch.  At Surfwatch I have the info handy and there is a statement that says that they can revise the reservation system without the consent of the owners, I'm guessing this is in most newer Resort POS documentation including Maui.  The info for GO isn't applicable due to the changes over time.


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## daventrina (Jun 19, 2006)

Dean said:
			
		

> I'm guessing this is in most newer Resort POS documentation including Maui.  The info for GO isn't applicable due to the changes over time.


Maui requires the approval of a majority of the owners


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## MikeM132 (Jun 19, 2006)

camachinist said:
			
		

> My deed says I own at Newport Coast only, and that is the property I pay real estate taxes for. I don't own an interest in MVCI or Marriott or the Martian Gaming Club. Just one resort, deeded property, fee simple. That's what "ownership interest" means to any reasonable person. If I want to stay at another MVCI property, I must "exchange" for a "fee", but I can never own there, unless I buy there, creating yet another "ownership interest" in that resort. If Marriott were a pure points system, where every owner purchased an "interest" in every resort in the system, then the rule would be interpreted (based on current observed interpretation by MVCI) accurately, IMO. Perhaps that's what they have in mind
> 
> Marriott is doing what is best for them (the corporation); never lose sight of that. Right now that means interpreting the "rules" the way the majority here likes. Things change. The trick is seeing the changes coming
> 
> Pat


Hey, I don't want to argue with you, but who do you call for your reservation, your resort or MCVI? Whose definition of the 13 month rule is the critical one, your resort's or MCVI's? This whole argument appears to be one person's bad experience comparred to everyone else's good one, and one persons interpretation of what appears to be a meaningless clause to the interpretation of MCVI, who actually issue the reservations.  I would again argue that you DO own an interest in MCVI by vitue of your ownership in an MVCI-affiliated property. My only thought on this is that if, by some chance, MOC or whatever resort left MCVI, then it might be important to have this language in your governing documents. Until then, it seems to me to be not relevant to actual reservation proceedures, as evidenced by experiences cited here.


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## camachinist (Jun 19, 2006)

MikeM132 said:
			
		

> Hey, I don't want to argue with you, but who do you call for your reservation, your resort or MCVI? Whose definition of the 13 month rule is the critical one, your resort's or MCVI's? This whole argument appears to be one person's bad experience comparred to everyone else's good one, and one persons interpretation of what appears to be a meaningless clause to the interpretation of MCVI, who actually issue the reservations.  I would again argue that you DO own an interest in MCVI by vitue of your ownership in an MVCI-affiliated property. My only thought on this is that if, by some chance, MOC or whatever resort left MCVI, then it might be important to have this language in your governing documents. Until then, it seems to me to be not relevant to actual reservation proceedures, as evidenced by experiences cited here.


Just continue arguing for what benefits you, until it changes. Which resort do you own at and how does MVCI's rule interpretations affect your ability to use the intervals you paid a ton of money for? I've already felt the effects of this "interpretation" as a relatively new owner (3 years) and I think it stinks. I make my reservations through the management company we pay to operate the resort, in this case MVCI. Do you think they do it for free? We pay them a ton of money to do it. 

All I'm saying with my posts here is that you and Marriott may think you're "right", but when you piss off enough people, "right" will not put bacon on your table. As a business owner, I know this from experience. Just because there are only a few people who voice complaints publicly here, do not infer that there are few who complain. Considering the response received here, do you really think the average person would bother? They'll just take their reading and business elsewhere, which many have done.

When Marriott decides to stop managing NCV, or we throw them out, how much will they be giving me for my interest in MVCI? Zippity do da.....how much will the property be worth? The underlying real estate value. How about all those cool Marriott points I could trade our intervals in for? Gone.

Interesting how business works...

Pat


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## Dean (Jun 19, 2006)

daventrina said:
			
		

> Maui requires the approval of a majority of the owners


I doubt that's the case because I don't think Marriott would tie their own hands in that way.  Maybe one of these days I'll get a POS from there to look through.


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## MikeM132 (Jun 19, 2006)

As a business owner, you must understand that a contract is different from a deed. As far as I understand, each resort contracts with Marriott for all the stuff they do, including reservations. I guess they can (and have) changed some of their policies, but that's business, as you know. All I'm saying is this thing about a clause in a governing document for the resort is irrelevant at this point, as that has nothing whatsoever to do with how reservations are made by MCVI at this time. 
Now that I own multiple weeks, one of them being at MOC, I expect to be able to reserve 2 weeks back-to-back (as I have no plans to fly back and forth from PA to HI twice for my weeks). If this doesn't happen in 2008, you'll probably hear about it here!


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## daventrina (Jun 19, 2006)

Dean said:
			
		

> I doubt that's the case because I don't think Marriott would tie their own hands in that way.  Maybe one of these days I'll get a POS from there to look through.


Before you quote what it does and doesn't say you should get one, because in it is says that changes to the documents of that type require a vote of the majority of the owners.
You might also find interesting that it says that the management company is *required* to operate the resort under rules layed out in the operational documents.


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## Dean (Jun 19, 2006)

daventrina said:
			
		

> Before you quote what it does and doesn't say you should get one, because in it is says that changes to the documents of that type require a vote of the majority of the owners.
> You might also find interesting that it says that the management company is *required* to operate the resort under rules layed out in the operational documents.


You can send me yours if you want and I'll review it.  I've never claimed to quote from the MAUI POS but have seen several others and know how these things and Marriott works.  I can guarantee you Marriott would not have tied their own hand in this matter.  But as strongly as you felt/feel about this, you should have filed legal action to settle it once and for all.  In that absence, I think I'll rely on Marriott's interpretation backed up by my knowledge of other resorts incorporated around the same time frame.


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## Dave M (Jun 19, 2006)

Dean said:
			
		

> But as strongly as you felt/feel about this, you should have filed legal action to settle it once and for all.  In that absence, I think I'll rely on Marriott's interpretation backed up by my knowledge of other resorts incorporated around the same time frame.


Very well stated, Dean!


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## Dean (Jun 20, 2006)

Just to add one small issue.  Lets assume for a moment that all stated by D&T were completely true and enforceable.  Lets also assume that this required an actual vote of the members.  I'm assuming that it would be a majority of the voting members assuming a quorum were reached, not a majority of all owners.  If that were the case don't you think the BOD would be pressured by MVCI to add the item to the agenda and word it in such a way that it would pass. Rarely are Special assessments voted down, no way would something like this be voted down.

Marriott has the need for consistency in their system.  They'd need to get any resort to conform or cut them lose, yes, even Maui.


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## daventrina (Jun 21, 2006)

Having never read the resorts’ docs, you must be right :ignore: 


			
				Dean said:
			
		

> They'd need to get any resort to conform or cut them lose,...


It isn’t MVCI’s prerogative or ability to dictate the content of the resort documentation (that they initially wrote We might add) which is the purview of the HOA (that by the way has no interest in changing the mode in which 13 month reservations are written into the docs) and the owners.



			
				Dean said:
			
		

> even Maui.


Cool, then we could move back in if we wanted to


			
				Dean said:
			
		

> I've never claimed to quote from the MAUI POS ....


But, we would need more than two hands to count the number of times that you’ve stated how the resort is supposed to operate without the benefit of reading the resorts operating documents.


			
				Dean said:
			
		

> …as strongly as you felt/feel about this, you should have filed legal action to settle it once and for all.


I think that is where we sent MVCI a demand that they cease and desist operation our resort in violation of its governing documents or we would have to take legal action to force them to do so. And that is where they started a review of the reservation documents of all of the Marriott resorts. It's is also where we suggested that they stop the process of giving high demand weeks where owners want to stay in their resort but can’t to II for exchange, especially in Hawaii and Aruba where the demand is so high that it makes no matter which week is deposited (wonder if that is coming next?). And where we suggested that they control the number of peak weeks where owners are unable to stay in their resort that are being rented by MVCI on other owners behalf for astronomical rates (oh, they just did that…) And where we suggested that the pool hours be extended to increase the owners benefit of the small fortune that they spend on the pool every year. And where we suggested that those exchanging into the resort are not given preferential treatment at the expense of owners in their own resort (e.g. where exchangers are given OF villas and where owners are NEVER upgraded in their own resort).


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## Dave M (Jun 21, 2006)

> ...And where we suggested that they control the number of peak weeks where owners are unable to stay in their resort that are being rented by MVCI on other owners behalf for astronomical rates (oh, they just did that…)....


 d&t -

Although I disagree with your conclusions, I respect the differences of opinion you have with Marriott and your frustration in not being able to get them resolved to your satisfaction.

However, I think the quote strains credibility. You have been very detailed in this forum and its predecessor in listing the complaints you have had with Marriott, mentioning, for example, the pool/spa issue on numerous occasions over the past 18 months on this BBS and the old BBS. However, the first time we have heard that you have in the past complained or made suggestions to Marriott about rentals is now, *after* Marriott made the change. There is no previous mention of a Marriott rental issue in any of your posts on this BBS or the old BBS.


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## PerryM (Jun 21, 2006)

*Band-Aids*

Trying to put myself in the shoes of Marriott management, I’m guessing that the topic of *“Too many owners chasing too few holiday weeks”* is something that must consume much time dealing with owners and how the heck to fix this problem.  Maui Ocean Club must head this list – all those promises of spending Christmas, or 4th of July in Maui by the sales reps cause this problem.

How to address this problem?

Well I’m guessing that the simplest Band-Aid is to eliminate those smart owners who reserved holiday weeks for the express purpose of renting them thru Marriott and making 2 X MFs.  Marriott just stopped that cold; they no longer contribute to this problem.  As a side benefit, Marriott makes more rental income and has less hassles with renting owners.

That’s my guess why Marriott struck a blow to renting – not for the few extra bucks they will make with reduced weeks to rent, but to reduce the criticism of owners not getting holiday weeks when Marriott has them up for rent on their site.

I’m not sure what the next Band-Aid is, but I’m guessing Marriott is seriously looking at it too.


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## daventrina (Jun 21, 2006)

Oh, well we didn't know that is was mandatory to publicly disclose all complaints and or suggestions. Sorry....
Does that rule apply to Just Marriott or all resorts? 
Do we have to post the actual text or can it be paraphrased?
Guess we had better include some of the other ones too.

Like it would be good it the bartenders new how to make a real mai tai instead of just adding rum to pineapple juice.
And the one that for the $250,000 we spend a year we should have an onsite owner services rep on site at the resort.
And the one where they should keep valet parking.
There were the kudos for owner services in SLT fixing the reservations we needed to fit with our other weeks when we couldn't get them.
There's the one where we said that they shouldn't rip us off for a buck for a local call.
And the one where owners should have priority over any other resort trading back into their own resort.
And the one where 1BRs could be locked out (not likely that it would happen, but still a good idea).
And the one where housekeeping should make available electric fry pans/grills etc.
And the one where there should be no parking fees.
There may be one or two others…


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## daventrina (Jun 21, 2006)

*Re: Band-Aids*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> Well I’m guessing that the simplest Band-Aid is to eliminate those smart owners who reserved holiday weeks for the express purpose of renting them thru Marriott and making 2 X MFs.  Marriott just stopped that cold; they no longer contribute to this problem....


Exactly...


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## sandesurf (Jun 21, 2006)

*Re: Band-Aids*

Geez, enough already! 

I keep hoping to read something of interest when I open this thread...nope.

IMHO


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## turkel (Jun 21, 2006)

WOW
I guess you two don't like Marriott,which after reading all the posts I believe to be quite an understatement.  I see you had multiple complaints but are you sure you are aware of how things really work?  Owners at a particular resort do have priority at their own resort over exchangers even if they are Marriott owners as well.  No other Marriott owner can book at a resort they don't own at ,although they have Marriott priority when exchanging through II.  Since it appears you no longer own at Marriott I guess you no longer have access to the rules.  Sorry your experience was so negative.


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## Dean (Jun 21, 2006)

daventrina said:
			
		

> But, we would need more than two hands to count the number of times that you’ve stated how the resort is supposed to operate without the benefit of reading the resorts operating documents.


LOL, why don't you send me your documents to review as you're not using them.  I guess Marriott hasn't read them either.


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## daventrina (Jun 21, 2006)

turkel said:
			
		

> ...Owners at a particular resort do have priority at their own resort over exchangers even if they are Marriott owners as well.  No other Marriott owner can book at a resort they don't own at ,although they have Marriott priority when exchanging through II.  ...


We understand how it is supposed to work, the problem was that it didn't work that way. Our parents could not trade back into Timber Lodge where they owned, while in the mean time we were able to exchange into Timber Lodge with our non-Marriott Swiss Mt. Village week. II gave them no explination. Marriott said it was an II problem.... FLuke computer glitch. There were using the 1BR half and coundn't even get a studio. Their studio half pulled a 5 star in Maui...
RCI did the same thing to us once. We couldn't trade back into our Stardust for easter. RCI said that the week didn't have enough trading power. But after asking for a supervisor, we were able to get an exchnage into Coranado Beach Resort for easter.
Problems like this likely have a lot to do with the increasing number of owners using SFX, Trading Places etc.


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## daventrina (Jun 21, 2006)

Dean said:
			
		

> I guess Marriott hasn't read them either.


We sent them to the new owners and only have the Timber Lodge docs. That is probably exactly what happened. The Marriott Marketing department dreamed up a new scheme to sell weeks. Didn't check with the legal folks, and most certailnly didn't look at the docs for each of the resorts. The person that we were in contact at Marriott said that when they looked into the issue, all of the resort documents have differences. We really believe that it was a marketing oops and not a malicious intentional violation of the various resorts rules.


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## taffy19 (Jun 21, 2006)

Daventrina, how long ago did you buy at the MOC and when did you sell? 

To me, all these problems I read here is because of a floating system. In the past, when you bought a fixed unit and fixed week you knrw what to expect and if you exchanged with RCI or II, then you didn't know what to expect. Pure and simple.


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## Dean (Jun 21, 2006)

daventrina said:
			
		

> We understand how it is supposed to work, the problem was that it didn't work that way. Our parents could not trade back into Timber Lodge where they owned, while in the mean time we were able to exchange into Timber Lodge with our non-Marriott Swiss Mt. Village week. II gave them no explination. Marriott said it was an II problem.... FLuke computer glitch. There were using the 1BR half and coundn't even get a studio. Their studio half pulled a 5 star in Maui...
> RCI did the same thing to us once. We couldn't trade back into our Stardust for easter. RCI said that the week didn't have enough trading power. But after asking for a supervisor, we were able to get an exchnage into Coranado Beach Resort for easter.
> Problems like this likely have a lot to do with the increasing number of owners using SFX, Trading Places etc.


The exchange system works on trade power.  There is no preference for an owner at that resort  other than as a tie breaker, only a preference for Marriott owners in general and it's still based on trade power.  So it's not uncommon for Marriott weeks to pass to non Marriott owners with a Marriott request sitting on the books.  I'm not saying I agree, just that's the way it is.


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## GaryDouglas (Jun 22, 2006)

*3/33 Rule*

Since there seems to be a lot on the 33 side and not much on the 3, I'll try and add something to the 3 side of the scale.

In the last couple years we've been able to get the weeks we have requested.  I have to admit we are not trying for July or August at MOC, but it seems to be a lot easier getting good air fares in June and September and these are still good months for Maui.

We haven't considered renting back through Marriott because I was under the impression that any income from Marriott would be reported on a 1099R and we would loose 35% of it to State and Federal.  If we ever rent out, it will be privately, particularly now with the new rules (and PerryM's suggestions to optimize renting).

We're probably the average content Marriott owner because we usually occupy and haven't needed to take advantage of all the options that are available to us.  Maybe as we spread or timeshare wings we will hit some snags along the way, but for now, we're doing just fine.

Anyone else out there not having any problems?


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## daventrina (Jun 22, 2006)

Dean said:
			
		

> There is no preference for an owner at that resort  other than as a tie breaker, only a preference for Marriott owners in general and it's still based on trade power.  .


Did the Marriott only window go away?


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## jancurious (Jun 22, 2006)

*Re: 3/33 Rule*



			
				GaryDouglas said:
			
		

> Anyone else out there not having any problems?



Gary,
I'm in your camp.  We own 5 Marriott weeks & absolutely love them.  We haven't rented yet as we are having too much fun using the weeks.  

I feel we went into this being pretty reasonable in that we were buying FLOATING weeks & may not always get our first choice.  II has been very good to us with all of our trades.  When we put in a room request, I have always felt that the Marriott resorts have been very fair to us.

Count me as a very happy Marriott owner!   :whoopie: 

Jan


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## WhereShouldIGoNow (Jun 22, 2006)

daventrina said:
			
		

> Oh, well we didn't know that is was mandatory to publicly disclose all complaints and or suggestions. Sorry....
> Does that rule apply to Just Marriott or all resorts?
> Do we have to post the actual text or can it be paraphrased?
> Guess we had better include some of the other ones too.
> ...



Bravo D&T!  Just because you haven't brought up an issue before, doesn't mean it isn't legit...and you don't always have to sue someone (or get legal counsel) to be right.


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## Dean (Jun 22, 2006)

daventrina said:
			
		

> Did the Marriott only window go away?


Not to my knowledge.  However, it's never been an absolute Marriott priority.  They still use trade power and if one doesn't meet that criteria, they will let the 24 day period expire then give it to a non Marriott II member even if a Marriott owner is requesting that exact deposit.


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## MikeM132 (Jun 23, 2006)

Dean said:
			
		

> Not to my knowledge.  However, it's never been an absolute Marriott priority.  They still use trade power and if one doesn't meet that criteria, they will let the 24 day period expire then give it to a non Marriott II member even if a Marriott owner is requesting that exact deposit.


For what I was recently told in sales (if you can count on that), is that an II deposit is only shown to other Marriott traders for the first few weeks (24days?). After that, it's open season at II. 
I had no idea that the D&T issue involved an II deposit and trade back into a resort. I thought there was an issue reserving at a home resort directly using the 13 month rule and where D&T thought BOTH weeks had to be at that home resort (in this case, MOC). Everyone else seems to think that in actual practice Marriott honors the 13 month rule for 2 Marriott weeks anywhere. At least this was my understanding of the original issue.


----------



## PerryM (Jun 23, 2006)

*Warning: math straight ahead*

Here’s another way of looking at 13 month bookings that might help explain all the pain AND opportunity:

Let’s take a hot Marriott and a hot holiday week – Saturday Christmas week (Week 51) at Maui Ocean Club – its just a plain old Platinum week, just like the 1st week in October.

MOC has a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday check in (Smaller housekeeping staff needed).

Let’s say MOC has 200 2BR villas.  That means that 1/2 the inventory is given to the 13 months folks and 1/2 the inventory given to the 12 month folks.  There are 3 check-in days so each check-in day has 1/6 the inventory or 33 2BR villas for our Saturday Christmas week check-in.

Realize that the 200 villas have 50 owners per villa or 10,000 Platinum owners who might want to spend Christmas in Maui.  Your goal is to get 2 MOC week 51's ahead of 10,000 other owners.

Being a clever guy you bought 2 Platinum MOC’s and you qualify for the 13 months.  However, you realize that many other smart guys did the same thing, heck many bought 3+ weeks at MOC (Their salesreps are smiling).

You on the other hand decided to buy cheap Platinum weeks at Orlando for $12,000 each resale – you own 2 of them.  Here’s how you get your 2 Christmas weeks (Week 51) in Maui with no problem:

13 months + 2 weeks out you book (Week 49): 1 Orlando week AND
1 Orlando week 50 AND
2 MOC week 51’s.

The phones weren’t busy that morning and you took your time.  Congratulations you got your 2 MOC’s and will rent one Christmas week for $4,000 to pay for all the foolery needed to get there. (ALL the MFs of the 2 MOC and 2 Orlando’s )

Recap: on week 49 you depleted 2 MOC for week 51 which is now 33-2 or 31 villas left for Saturday check-in.  Next week more owners will do this and all 31 will be snapped up in exactly 2 seconds after the phones and internet open.

Of course you paid dearly for this capability – you bought 2 MOC Platinum’s for what $45k each and 2 Orlandos for $12k each = $114,000 to do this.  That same amount invested in the DOW could withdraw 5% and also pay taxes and 3% for inflation = $5,700 to spend on renting the MOC for $4,000 on RedWeek.

The cheaper the “throw away” Platinum weeks the cheaper it is to get those hot holiday weeks.  I suspect many Marriott owners are doing the above and that explains why you can’t get your Christmas week in Maui with the 1 week you own.

Oh, did I forget to mention that if you missed out on the 33 13-month MOC Saturday check-in you can use your 2 Orlando’s and book:

Week 49 – Book Orlando AND
Book week 50 Orlando AND
Book 2 week 51’s a MOC.

Pity the poor MOC owner with 1 week who calls in 12 months out – all the 33 villas are already gone when the phones and internet open.  There are ZERO Saturday villas left.

You can get mad at this, and it’s really other owners playing the game, or you can play the game – that’s up to you.


----------



## Dave M (Jun 23, 2006)

*More math*

..and a slight variation, Perry. 

If the purpose of buying "cheap" weeks is solely to get a head start of an additional week or two for making those MOC reservations, buy a couple of "throwaway" off-season (for example) Bronze (lowest season) Hilton Head secondary resort weeks for a much lower cost than those Platinum Orlando weeks. Those Bronze timeshares can be reserved for weeks 49-50, still allowing for your consecutive weeks scenario. 

That means, as you suggested, one could call almost 14 months in advance of the most desired week to make reservations. Or even further in advance, depending on how many reservation weeks one strings together.


----------



## PerryM (Jun 23, 2006)

*Throwaways*

I once did an analysis of the Throwaway weeks and since you pay the same MF I decided that for our vacation needs the Platinum weeks could rent for their MF by themselves or with lock-offs you get 2 II deposits that trade very well.

However, Dave is right; the cheaper the up-front investment the longer ahead you can work the Marriott system.  Just remember that there were only 33 2BR villas out of 200 for that Saturday check-in both 13 months out and 12 months out.  The kicker is that the folks who own multiple weeks get 2 shots at their dream vacation, not 1 like the owner with just 1 week.

I used to get mad at stuff like this but then I just gave in and started to learn how to play the game really well.

We do the same exact thing in WM for hard to get holiday weeks – its just a fact of timeshare life.


----------



## Dean (Jun 23, 2006)

MikeM132 said:
			
		

> For what I was recently told in sales (if you can count on that), is that an II deposit is only shown to other Marriott traders for the first few weeks (24days?). After that, it's open season at II.
> I had no idea that the D&T issue involved an II deposit and trade back into a resort. I thought there was an issue reserving at a home resort directly using the 13 month rule and where D&T thought BOTH weeks had to be at that home resort (in this case, MOC). Everyone else seems to think that in actual practice Marriott honors the 13 month rule for 2 Marriott weeks anywhere. At least this was my understanding of the original issue.


You were told correctly about this issue with one omission.  While the deposits are held for 24 days for Marriott members who qualify, they are not necessarily offered to all Marriott members even if they have a request during that time. You must still have enough trade power to qualify.  It is common they'll hold the deposit, ignoring MVCI members who are searching, then release it at 24 days.  I personally think even the lowest Marriott deposit should get it before a non Marriott but it's not my choice, obviously.


----------



## Jimbo (Jun 23, 2006)

*Re: More math*



			
				Dave M said:
			
		

> ..and a slight variation, Perry.
> 
> If the purpose of buying "cheap" weeks is solely to get a head start of an additional week or two for making those MOC reservations, buy a couple of "throwaway" off-season (for example) Bronze (lowest season) Hilton Head secondary resort weeks for a much lower cost than those Platinum Orlando weeks. Those Bronze timeshares can be reserved for weeks 49-50, still allowing for your consecutive weeks scenario.
> 
> That means, as you suggested, one could call almost 14 months in advance of the most desired week to make reservations. Or even further in advance, depending on how many reservation weeks one strings together.



Finally a few tidbits of knowledge worth waiting for and trudging through all the mess of the posts above.  Thanxxx to Perry and Dave M, I've been treated to a nugget of truth.:whoopie:   Albeit expensive but worthwhile.


----------



## swing4thefence (Jun 24, 2006)

If ALL of the inventory was gone at the 13 month mark, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but that's not true.  Only half of the inventory gets released 13 months out leaving half for the owners calling in 12 months in advance.  If you want the same weeks everyone else wants then you're going to be disappointed sometimes.  That's just how it goes.  If 2,000 people want a week and MOC only has 200 units then that makes 800 people that are not going to get it whether they are multiple week owners or not.  (March, June, July, August, Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.)
If you want to travel during off peak times the competition is not so fierce.




			
				mepiccolo said:
			
		

> .
> 
> The bottom line is Marriott's reservation system is geared for the satisfaction of the multiple-week owners at the expense of the one-week owners.


----------



## swing4thefence (Jun 24, 2006)

*Re: Band-Aids*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> “Too many owners chasing too few holiday weeks



I've long thought that Marriott should buy some luxury trailers that they could move from resort to Resort accorcing to demand.  They could park them at Mountainside in Feb-March and then move them to Phoenix for March/April and then to Newport for July/August.  (June would be for rerurbishment.)


----------



## swing4thefence (Jun 24, 2006)

*Re: Warning: math straight ahead*



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> Pity the poor MOC owner with 1 week who calls in 12 months out – all the 33 villas are already gone when the phones and internet open.  There are ZERO Saturday villas left.



Hi Perry,
Are you sure you didn't mean to say pity the poor MOC owner with 2 weeks who calls in 13 months out?  Marriott HAS to cap the "more than 12 months in advance" reservations at 50%.


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## Dave M (Jun 24, 2006)

I believe you misread Perry's post. His math assumed there would be 33 villas available for Saturday check-in at 13 months and another 33 still available at 12 months. Thus, it's only the 13-month weeks that would be gone, as he stated.


----------



## PerryM (Jun 24, 2006)

*More math; part deux*

swing4thefence,

If you own just 1 Maui week you must wait until exactly 12 months out to call or click for a reservation.  On that morning you will hear the Marriott rep say “Sorry, all villas are reserved”.  Actually all 33 units were long ago snapped up.  Here’s why:

Folks with 2+ Marriotts that can string them together get 2 chances at 2 lots of 33 Saturday villas.  Lot 1 was at 13+ months and lot 2 at 12+ months.  Assuming you have a MOC and a Grande Vista you would have had 2 opportunities to snag a Christmas week:

Lot 1 (13 months):
You call in 13 months and 1 week ahead and try to snag:
Week 50 at Grande Vista AND
Week 51 at MOC

There are 33 Saturday villas but you were 2 seconds late so all 33 Saturday villas are snapped up by folks who have 3 weeks strung together and 2 week owners who called in 2 seconds ahead of you.

Lot 2 (12 months): (you wait 4 weeks)
You missed out on lot 1 so you bought an atomic clock and know that it takes 4 seconds to connect to Marriott.   You are loaded for bear.

12 months and 1 week you call in at 4 seconds before 8 AM CST and get a Marriott rep – yes!!!  You book:
Week 50 at Grande Vista AND
Week 51 at MOC

Congratulations, the rep informed you that you got the LAST week 51 at MOC.  You now start to plan on buying another throwaway week so next year you can call in 2 weeks early.

Exactly 12 months before week-51 ALL 33 Saturday villas are long gone.

Like I said, you can get mad at the other Marriott owners or play the game.  Throw away Marriotts don’t cost that much resale and some have low MFs.

I'd look at using throwaways to get super holiday weeks at MOC and you didn't have to pay huge bucks for a week 51 or a 4th of July Platinum Plus week as you do at other Marriotts.

P.S.
Having a fixed week can be a pain too.  We used to own fixed weeks 51 & 52 at MountainSide and I had the same problem trying to snag a Saturday check-in.  Had to string together the 2 fixed weeks and called in to the second to lock in a Saturday check-in.


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## armlem2 (Jun 25, 2006)

*getting confused*

Getting confused here.  I thought the 13 mth rule allowed booking 2 consecutive or concurrent weeks, not 3,4 or more in a row. I am interputing Perry's statements to imply I could call as far in advance as weeks I own in order to get the one I want.  Meaning if I wanted July 4th,  and I owned 5 weeks I could call May 1st and reserve every week in June and the first week of July all on one call, on May 1st if I own enough weeks.  

      I don't own 2 or more but thought there was a restriction of only being able to book 2 consectively then you would have to wait to book weeks 3 and 4.


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## mepiccolo (Jun 25, 2006)

Wow - I can't believe this thread is still going on.  There has been some helpful information in these later posts but about 50 posts ago I came to the same conclusion I would have now:  Since I was already a 2 bdrm lockoff owner in Maui my intent was to only buy one week at MOC and I did not want to pay to join a game where I was going to be the underdog based on my one week's ownership.  So for me the bottom line was the 13 month reservation rule for multiple owners is what kept me from wanting to join the Marriott game.  Kudos to you all who own several weeks and are savy enough to use this to your advantage


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## Dave M (Jun 25, 2006)

Larry -

There is no two-week restriction. Thus, you can string more than two weeks together for consecutive or concurrent stays. The written guidance - in legal docs for the various resorts, in the *12*-month policy copied in the FAQs for this forum and on the MVCI site - refers to "multiple-week" owners, not just to "two-week" owners.

Numerous TUGgers have posted of how they reserve more than two weeks at 13 months in advance. {b]pwrshift[/b], for example, does it regularly.


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## PerryM (Jun 25, 2006)

*Throwaways are great exchangers*

Marriott’s 13 month rule was enacted to allow owners with multiple weeks to make consecutive and/or concurrent reservations in one phone call.  By opening this door, Marriott allowed crafty owners to basically get any hard to book holiday week they want – if they buy enough throwaway weeks that can be tacked together.

These throwaway weeks can be excellent II exchangers and thus really aren’t throwaways.  At the 59 day window in II, all Marriotts are equal, however there can be Florida restrictions so you might pick another state than Florida for the ”throwaway”.

This is a great feature/weakness to exploit and I’m guessing that 90% of the Marriott owners just don’t understand what’s going on.

The other feature/weakness is the first day of the weekend call in.  If your resort has a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday check-in you MUST call in on a Friday 13+ months or 12+ months in advance.  I suspect that many Marriott owners wanting to check-in on a Saturday are waiting until the Saturday to call in – they missed it by 24 hours.  Exploit this.

For MOC, Sunday check-in can save you 35% in airfare versus Saturday flights.  For a family of 4 that means by calling in on Friday to make Sunday reservations will get you 1 free airline ticket.  In St. Louis the average Saturday flight is $850 to Maui.


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## GaryDouglas (Jun 25, 2006)

I thought it was the Thursday before the Friday that you can make reservations...


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## PerryM (Jun 25, 2006)

*Thursday is a super throwaway*

Horizons has Thursday check-in days so a great throwaway would be to have a Horizons then a Marriott.

Cypress Harbour has a Thursday check-in too.


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## Dave M (Jun 25, 2006)

Gary -

Not exactly. It's one year to the *date* (or 13 months to the *date*) in advance of the first possible weekend check-in date for the resort. 

Since most resorts have Friday as the earliest check-in date, the 12-month reservation date is normally on a Thursday. But when leap year is involved, the extra day makes a difference. Cypress Harbour has Thursday check-ins, so the 12-month date to call for that resort is normally on a Wednesday. Again, leap year makes a difference.

Thus, the way to plan is to look at next year's calendar to see what day the first check-in date is for the weekend you want to check in. Assume that date is Friday, June *29*, 2007. Thus, you would call on Thursday, June *29* this year to make a reservation. Had you planned to call 13 months in advance to book multiple concurrent or consecutive weeks, you could have called on Monday, May *29*. You would call on those dates no matter whether you wanted a check in date in 2007 of June 29 or 30 or July 1.


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## GaryDouglas (Jun 26, 2006)

Okay, I'm right for my resorts, but I need to keep an eye out for leap years...

Thanks, Dave


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## jancurious (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: getting confused*



			
				armlem2 said:
			
		

> Getting confused here.  I thought the 13 mth rule allowed booking 2 consecutive or concurrent weeks, not 3,4 or more in a row. I am interputing Perry's statements to imply I could call as far in advance as weeks I own in order to get the one I want.  Meaning if I wanted July 4th,  and I owned 5 weeks I could call May 1st and reserve every week in June and the first week of July all on one call, on May 1st if I own enough weeks.
> 
> I don't own 2 or more but thought there was a restriction of only being able to book 2 consectively then you would have to wait to book weeks 3 and 4.



No Perry is correct.  You can book as many weeks that you own in a row (if they are in the correct season for booking & can be booked concurrent or consecutive.  As long as you own at least two weeks, you can even split your lock-off unit & book consecutive weeks for the 1 BR & studio side so you could book three weeks in a row.

Jan


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## sandesurf (Jul 27, 2006)

sandesurf said:
			
		

> Okay, I'll admit it, I'm worried... We just bought at MOC and the ONLY time we can travel is during July or August. We DO NOT have the 13 mo. advantage. I plan on having two phones and the computer "ready" as soon as those lines open on the 12 month out day but just how "lucky" will we need to be to get there??
> Any tips will be appreciated!




UPDATE:
We got our "1st choice" week!!! Friday check in, July 27th!!!
12 months out!
:whoopie: 
ALOHA!
Just wanted to throw some "good news" into the works!


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## ciscogizmo1 (Jul 27, 2006)

mepiccolo said:
			
		

> But within a year WOKRV North will have a new pool area similar to MOC that our kids can use when we stay at WOKRV so that incentive was gone.



Just to let you know the Westin pool on the North side may not be comparable.  Originally, Westin was going to have lazy river, a pirate ship with a slide & a separate adult only pool.   We own at WOKRV and when we went to the presentation last June they are not including the lazy river & the slide will not be part of the pirate ship.  I was very disappointed to hear that.   

The sales rep told us that the pirate ship will just be a climbing structure.  I'm hoping that he is wrong because that just seems boring to me.  But the lazy river has been confirmed by others as a "no" go...

Honestly, I own both a Marriott and Westin and truely believe both have their problems.  It just depends on your priorities and what is important to you.  GL...


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## ciscogizmo1 (Jul 27, 2006)

sandesurf said:
			
		

> UPDATE:
> We got our "1st choice" week!!! Friday check in, July 27th!!!
> 12 months out!
> :whoopie:
> ...



Congrats.... my aunt was able to reserve a Marriott Maui week last year for this past June.  We went the 3rd week of June.  She even had to change the check-in day from Saturday to Sunday a week after she made the reservation.  She had no problems changing.   So congrats to you!


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## DerbyVacationClubber (Aug 1, 2006)

You all need to get a life...especially Dave and Tina or whatever your names are...the fact that I attempted to learn something by reading this thread and kept going while you whined and complained screen after screen calls into question my intellegence. :annoyed:


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## m61376 (Aug 4, 2006)

Actually, I'd like to thank everyone. We are considering making a purchase (this will be our first foray into timesharing) and, depite the complaining, this has been very informative.

We happened to stay at the Ko'Olina last week and were surprised at how much we loved this type of vacation. Your board is a real education!


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## djo1220 (Aug 10, 2006)

*marriott*

To Dave and Tina:
Bravo!
I own two weeks at separate Marriott resorts and you outlined the problems with the Marriott system accurately. I have personally had little problems booking...the exception being presidents week in ski week location. However there are a number of unfair practices that I agree with.
By the way.... The real question is why arent any Marriotts in Tug's top ten???????  HMMMMM.............

Dan


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## Dean (Aug 10, 2006)

djo1220 said:
			
		

> By the way.... The real question is why arent any Marriotts in Tug's top ten???????  HMMMMM.............
> 
> Dan


Mostly because the DVC resorts are included.  But with 7 in the top 30 I'd say they still hold their own.


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## daventrina (Aug 11, 2006)

djo1220 said:
			
		

> I own two weeks at separate Marriott resorts and you outlined the problems with the Marriott system accurately.
> Dan


Thanks Dan!!!


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## KathyPet (Aug 11, 2006)

*TUG Top 10???*

Where do you see a list of the top 10?? I looked on Resort Ratings and Reviews and didn't see anything there???


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## taffy19 (Aug 11, 2006)

*Top 10!*

Top ten resorts!

Click on "Current 2006 Top Ten Worldwide Resorts" and it will show you pictures too.


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## rsackett (Aug 11, 2006)

iconnections said:
			
		

> Top ten resorts!
> 
> Click on "Current 2006 Top Ten Worldwide Resorts" and it will show you pictures too.



That link shows two Marriotts in the Top 10.


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## Dean (Aug 11, 2006)

rsackett said:
			
		

> That link shows two Marriotts in the Top 10.


If you go in through the ratings page, you'll see the current top 30 which has no Marriott's in the top 10, the first is 11 if I recall.  I believe that list is current and real time while the others are a snapshot at a specific time.


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## Hugh (Aug 16, 2006)

*Single week Marriott owners get the worst deal.*



			
				mepiccolo said:
			
		

> Wow - I can't believe this thread is still going on.  There has been some helpful information in these later posts but about 50 posts ago I came to the same conclusion I would have now:  Since I was already a 2 bdrm lockoff owner in Maui my intent was to only buy one week at MOC and I did not want to pay to join a game where I was going to be the underdog based on my one week's ownership.  So for me the bottom line was the 13 month reservation rule for multiple owners is what kept me from wanting to join the Marriott game.  Kudos to you all who own several weeks and are savy enough to use this to your advantage



I wish I had this information BEFORE I purchased my 1 week at Newport Coast. It is a extremely difficult to get a single week during late June to end of August and it is more difficult each year. We just completed an owners presentation ($150 gift certificate incentive) and were specifically told that you must own another Platinum Week (that is what we currently have) in order to qualify for the 13-month reservation time.  Yes, you could own the Platinum Week at another Marriott, but that would only mean you could reserve at the individual Marriotts 13-months in advance, NOT reserve 2 weeks at just one of the Marriotts 13-months in advance.  I think this salesperson is either not correct or one hand is unaware of what the other is doing.

Besides, at $30,000 retail per week, is a 2bd+2ba unit really worth $1,500,000 per unit ($30,000/week x 52 weeks in a year)?  My unit is over $1200 per square foot!!

TUG members should pool our money and start our own timeshare developement!  We'd make a fortune at the above rates.  But then we would have a lot of angry customers to deal with too.


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## cp73 (Aug 16, 2006)

Hugh said:
			
		

> Besides, at $30,000 retail per week, is a 2bd+2ba unit really worth $1,500,000 per unit ($30,000/week x 52 weeks in a year)?  My unit is over $1200 per square foot!!



Funny you should mention this. Just yesterday I was talking with a co-worker who has a unit there. We both agreed that at $1.5M we thought it was under priced. There is nothing in that area, Newport Coast, where you can get an Ocean View for $1.5M. We were saying for $150k you could get a summer beachhouse and use it for 6 weeks a year. With the price of real estate here in California, some of the timeshares in this state (especially Newport Coast) are close to what they are actully worth, maybe even underpriced.


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## Dave M (Aug 16, 2006)

Hugh said:
			
		

> We ... were specifically told that you must own another Platinum Week (that is what we currently have) in order to qualify for the 13-month reservation time.  Yes, you could own the Platinum Week at another Marriott, but that would only mean you could reserve at the individual Marriotts 13-months in advance, NOT reserve 2 weeks at just one of the Marriotts 13-months in advance.  I think this salesperson is either not correct or one hand is unaware of what the other is doing.


The salesperson was mostly correct. 

You can qualify for making reservations 13-months in advance buy buying another week that matches the timeframe for when you want to make reservations. If during June-August, as you indicate, that would require a Platinum week if you buy a Newport Beach week, but it might well be a Gold or Silver week at many other resorts. 

Accordingly, you could for example, buy a Gold week (June and some of July) or Silver week (the rest of July, all of August and the first week of September) at Shadow Ridge and be able to make reservations 13 months in advance.

The salesperson is correct in stating that you can only reserve where you own. Thus, in my example, you could call 13 months in advance and reserve an August week at Newport Beach and the same or adjacent week at Shadow Ridge (if you own Silver season there). However, to have two weeks of use at Newport Beach, you must either own both weeks there or try to exchange the second week into the resort.


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## Bill4728 (Aug 16, 2006)

Hugh said:
			
		

> Besides, at $30,000 retail per week, is a 2bd+2ba unit really worth $1,500,000 per unit ($30,000/week x 52 weeks in a year)?  My unit is over $1200 per square foot!!



At resale prices of ~14K for gold and ~$20K for platinum that works out to a little over $900K for all 52 weeks (not counting the extra you'd pay for july 4th)  As the other posters have said, nowhere in newport can you get an ocean view for close to that. You'd likely pay over 2 million for such a condo.


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## Dean (Aug 16, 2006)

Hugh said:
			
		

> I wish I had this information BEFORE I purchased my 1 week at Newport Coast. It is a extremely difficult to get a single week during late June to end of August and it is more difficult each year. We just completed an owners presentation ($150 gift certificate incentive) and were specifically told that you must own another Platinum Week (that is what we currently have) in order to qualify for the 13-month reservation time.  Yes, you could own the Platinum Week at another Marriott, but that would only mean you could reserve at the individual Marriotts 13-months in advance, NOT reserve 2 weeks at just one of the Marriotts 13-months in advance.  I think this salesperson is either not correct or one hand is unaware of what the other is doing.
> 
> Besides, at $30,000 retail per week, is a 2bd+2ba unit really worth $1,500,000 per unit ($30,000/week x 52 weeks in a year)?  My unit is over $1200 per square foot!!
> 
> TUG members should pool our money and start our own timeshare developement!  We'd make a fortune at the above rates.  But then we would have a lot of angry customers to deal with too.


You were certainly told wrong, they do not have to be platinum.  Whether it's because they are mistaken or just trying to sell you another week there is the question.  But you can only reserve the weeks you own.  So if you have a week at resort A and a week at resort B, that's all you'll end up with, a week at each resort.


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## camachinist (Aug 16, 2006)

A couple blue weeks at MDS will get one 13 month+ advance at NCV.

Annecdotally, we got July 7 this year at NCV at 12 months and I just selected it online, nowhere near opening time.

Pat


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## DavidPJ (Aug 18, 2006)

We just had our preview at OW yesterday and the salesperson said the 13 month reservation only applied to (2) consecutive weeks booked at the same resort. I asked again, and he repeated it. And he said it rarely affects anyone.


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## PerryM (Aug 18, 2006)

*Second hand smoke*



			
				DavidPJ said:
			
		

> We just had our preview at OW yesterday and the salesperson said the 13 month reservation only applied to (2) consecutive weeks booked at the same resort. I asked again, and he repeated it. And he said it rarely affects anyone.



The first question I ask the salesrep, any salesrep, "Do you own a timeshare?".  My empirical result is that 90% of timeshare salesrep don't own a timeshare.   There experience making reservations is just second hand information.  

And just like second hand smoke - it stinks.

The salesrep is wrong, incorrect, bamboozled and just ignorant of Marriott's rules.


----------



## Big Matt (Aug 18, 2006)

Why do you think that it is mandatory that a sales person own the product that they sell?  

There are sales people everywhere that never own the product they are selling.  Please don't confuse product knowledge with ownership.  Also, don't confuse an occupation with a personal interest.

I'll give you some examples:  components for jet engines, medical equipment, chemicals used for industrial purposes, software, mainframe servers...you get the picture.



			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> The first question I ask the salesrep, any salesrep, "Do you own a timeshare?".  My empirical result is that 90% of timeshare salesrep don't own a timeshare.   There experience making reservations is just second hand information.
> 
> And just like second hand smoke - it stinks.
> 
> The salesrep is wrong, incorrect, bamboozled and just ignorant of Marriott's rules.


----------



## Dean (Aug 18, 2006)

DavidPJ said:
			
		

> We just had our preview at OW yesterday and the salesperson said the 13 month reservation only applied to (2) consecutive weeks booked at the same resort. I asked again, and he repeated it. And he said it rarely affects anyone.


I can guarantee you that it need not be the same resort, same season, etc; as can many others who have actually done the same thing.  It could certainly change in the future but I doubt it.  I believe Perry's basic point is that many timeshare sales people don't know all that much about the product they sell outside their basic inner workings.  But if they own, they are more likely to understand the nuances and processes as well as truly believe in what they are selling.  He can correct me if I'm incorrect in my interpretation.  Even with Marriott and Disney I've heard a lot of incorrect statements and I generally felt they were simply wrong, not dishonest.  I had one at HH this past month who had worked for Marriott for over 10 years in sales who thought that the home resort priority trumped everything else.  It's really sad when the experienced people are so clueless.


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## camachinist (Aug 18, 2006)

> There are sales people everywhere that never own the product they are selling. Please don't confuse product knowledge with ownership. Also, don't confuse an occupation with a personal interest.



Agree. I deal with such folks all the time in my business. Very frustrating. I'd settle for a little product knowledge, but, often, even that is asking too much 

I'm lucky in that I make a living doing what I was born to do. Customers like that. I guess that comes from having to deal with the antithesis so often. BTW, I'm a lousy salesperson 

Pat


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## DavidPJ (Aug 18, 2006)

I didn't expect our preview salesman to have all the answers, but from what I read on this board the issue of 13 month bookings and priority of home resort owners is a very serious matter. The salesperson should definitively know the correct answer to this question. And again, he said it "rarely affects anyone". But to me this great 13 month booking feature for 2 consecutive week owners may stop me from being a Marriott Timeshare owner. Owners (including 1 week owners) should always have priority at their home resort.


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## Dean (Aug 18, 2006)

DavidPJ said:
			
		

> I didn't expect our preview salesman to have all the answers, but from what I read on this board the issue of 13 month bookings and priority of home resort owners is a very serious matter. The salesperson should definitively know the correct answer to this question. And again, he said it "rarely affects anyone". But to me this great 13 month booking feature for 2 consecutive week owners may stop me from being a Marriott Timeshare owner. Owners (including 1 week owners) should always have priority at their home resort.


I can see both sides.  I suspect it is a small matter simply due to the small number of weeks involved.  However, it is a big deal for some of us and likely has a larger affect on certain high demand weeks.  As for priority, only an owner at your resort can reserve there.  The only issue is that someone using the 13 month option who owns at your resort can get a jump on the other owners there.


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## PerryM (Aug 18, 2006)

*Why don’t developer salesreps own a timeshare?*

Big Matt,

After I ask the salesrep whether they own a timeshare or not I ask the ones who don’t own (90%) why.  Here are some of the reasons they spout:

1)	Too expensive
2)	Can’t make plans 13 months ahead of time

These are lame excuses – I always tell them that eBay is full of $100 timeshares and that exchanging within the II 59-day window and RCI 45-day window allow for last minute timeshare usage.  Heck II is full of reservations that expire just days from now.

Granted, a salesrep selling a G5 isn’t going to be an owner, but a $100 timeshare on eBay should fit into even the most inept salesrep’s budget.

If 90% of the salesreps owned a timeshare then you could put a bit more “trust” in the words flowing out of their mouths.  Since 90% have decided that timeshare ownership just doesn’t fit into their lifestyle I find it incredulous that they try to pawn them off on the general public.

I compare timeshare ownership to owning a car – the similarities are striking.  Imagine sitting down at the car dealers desk and discussing how to operate the navigation system?  (and the salesrep does not own a car, any car?)  The same applies to timeshare salesreps who have so little interest in a timeshare to buy one – why would we expect words of wisdom from their mouths?

The few reps that own a timeshare are normally the top salesreps in the office - they know that to sell a product requires a commitment from them as a sign of good faith.  Out of the 10% that own a timeshare only 10% of those own a timeshare at the resort they are selling!

I still think that ARDA should require salesreps who own a timeshare to wear a 6" yellow button that reads:
*"I too am a timeshare owner"* ​ That way we could quickly determine the 90% that haven't the foggiest notion what owners go thru.


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## Hugh (Aug 19, 2006)

*$1.5 million for ocean view condo only 1200SF is not a good deal.*



			
				Bill4728 said:
			
		

> At resale prices of ~14K for gold and ~$20K for platinum that works out to a little over $900K for all 52 weeks (not counting the extra you'd pay for july 4th)  As the other posters have said, nowhere in newport can you get an ocean view for close to that. You'd likely pay over 2 million for such a condo.



OK. $900K for 52 weeks for 1200SF is still pretty high per square foot.  But let's say it is not.  The fee would be $700 x 52weeks!  approx $36,000 per year and rising every year.  Don't forget the property tax $90 x 52 weeks; nother approx $4500 per year.  

I've rationalized that $100/day is a very nice price for the amenities available at this Newport Coast Villas.  And to only have to pay for the week we use is also a savings over owning a condo as a second residence.  But you can bet Marriott did not build each unit for anything near $1 million per unit.  Also, it doesn't doesn't cost anything near $36,000 a year per unit to maintain the resort and unit.  The timeshare business is a cash cow to run.  You don't even get towels/sheets changed during the week unless you pay extra.


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## daventrina (Aug 19, 2006)

DavidPJ said:
			
		

> We just had our preview at OW yesterday and the salesperson said the 13 month reservation only applied to (2) consecutive weeks booked at the same resort. I asked again, and he repeated it. And he said it rarely affects anyone.


Imagine that.... Maybe he actually read the documents that they hand out.....:ignore:


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## Big Matt (Aug 19, 2006)

I agree with your statements below.  

What you are commenting on is poor salesmanship and lack of product knowledge for 90%.

I still don't think that you need to own a timeshare to understand what you are selling.

On the other hand, I'll bet that there are many timeshare salesmen who own timeshares that are lying, cheating, rats. 





			
				PerryM said:
			
		

> I compare timeshare ownership to owning a car – the similarities are striking.  Imagine sitting down at the car dealers desk and discussing how to operate the navigation system?  (and the salesrep does not own a car, any car?)  The same applies to timeshare salesreps who have so little interest in a timeshare to buy one – why would we expect words of wisdom from their mouths?
> 
> The few reps that own a timeshare are normally the top salesreps in the office - they know that to sell a product requires a commitment from them as a sign of good faith.  Out of the 10% that own a timeshare only 10% of those own a timeshare at the resort they are selling!


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## taffy19 (Aug 19, 2006)

We bought timeshares from developers because we had never heard of TUG. Several of our sales people owned at these resorts and had photo albums to prove it. I think that is a terrific sales tool and they had made exchanges too so it works on your imagination what you can do with your timeshare once you buy it. We mainly bought at a resort because we liked the area and want to return often but having the opportunity to go somewhere else was icing on the cake.

I *don't* believe that these people faked it because they had pictures too of the resorts and area they were visiting and they had a lot of enthusiasm for the resort where they were selling and the whole concept of timesharing.

We have always asked this question to every sales person and felt like we got an honest answer. Some didn't buy because they didn't have the money or they were just starting out but one salesman told us that he made too much money and the company let him stay free at all their resorts so why buy? I won't say what company that is.  It was not a Marriott resort!


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