# Purchase assistance



## KeithR (May 3, 2021)

Hello, have really enjoyed reading this forum over the years. We are now considering a purchase, but concerned that we might be looking at things wrong. In short:

1) As Californians, we want to go to Hawaii (with a child) most years - although really prefer Kauai to Maui. I have stayed at both the Westin Princeville and Kaanapali before. Scottsdale isn't a bad option either for us distance-wise, hence our interest in Kierland Villas to maximize SO and low MFs.
2) However, my fiance is a high school principal and has more limited time in the summers than normal teachers, so traveling July is the norm. Other weeks of course are terrible weeks to book timeshares (Tgiving and Spring Break)
3) We intend on using other resorts in the network so not sure a low-priced EOY WPORV voluntary property purchase makes sense. Orlando and some others likely with the kiddo.
4) Last, I am in a wheelchair and require an ADA room - does this mean we shouldn't be looking at ocean view/front villas. Usually i get bottom floor, garden view hotel rooms at resorts by default.

Original plan was to purchase 2BR WKL Platinum and trade into WPORV as we wish, but with her limited schedule is that difficult to get 8 months out for the summer? If so, I'm guessing we would need to look at WKORV as that would at least guarantee us Maui.

Thanks for the help!


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## EnglishmanAbroad (May 3, 2021)

If you absolutely want Hawaii in July then I'd advise buying at the property of your choice there. If you'd just like Hawaii in  July but don't mind if you don't get it then buy elsewhere and roll the dice at the 8 month mark with SO and I'd say you'd have a good chance of getting a studio, a slight chance of getting a 1BR and almost no chance of getting a 2BR unless you pick up a cancelation.


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## daviator (May 3, 2021)

I'll give you my thoughts but I'm sure others will have more to say.

I assume you mean WKV and not WKL?  I don't know what WKL is.  

If your goal was to get into Maui during the summer, I'd tell you that you should probably buy at WKORV to be assured of getting a reservation at 12 months.  But Princeville isn't quite as popular, in my experience, even though it's a fantastic property in every way.  So if your goal is to get into Princeville in the summer, I think you'd have a good shot at doing so at 8 months with SOs from a mandatory resort like WKV.  I'd wait to see what others have to say — I've only gone to WPORV a couple of times, but it always seems to pop up as available when I'm searching for Maui (which often ISN'T available.)  It also could be that they have more unsold inventory on Kauai and thus more general availability, so it may get tougher over time as they manage to sell more.  In the future, you may also be competing with Marriott Vacation Club people at 8 months.

I do think that the people who stay up late and search for reservations at midnight eastern time right on the first day they can do so have a good shot at success.  I've almost always had success doing so.

As for ADA rooms, I think they do reserve them separately, there's a box you check when you search for a reservation if you require an ADA room. You might even have access to inventory that the rest of us don't see, I'm not sure how that works.  At the Maui resorts, every building has elevators, and I think most or all do at Princeville too.  I don't know how many rooms have other accommodations for those with disabilities.  

As a fellow Californian, I'd also recommend Westin Desert Willow as a nice property that is drivable.  We ended up buying a week there because we enjoyed it enough (that was before I found TUG, and it's easy enough to get into that I'd have been better off to buy resale somewhere else.  Oh well.

As a general rule, I'd say buy at the property you want to stay at the most, because that will give you the most and best options for that property.  But I feel like you could probably get away with owning at WKV and trading into Princeville, but you should probably see what others say.


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## rcv82 (May 3, 2021)

I second everything daviator said. You may do fine getting into WPORV with StarOptions at 8 months, but personally if Hawaii was a priority for me in July I would prefer to own something with 12 month priority. With WKORV south and north being mandatory, picking up a low cost island/resort view may be one good option. Sometimes these are available pretty inexpensive, although currently on Redweek there is little inventory.

One other option: If you can find Westin Flex resale at a good price, you might want to consider this if you can live with being limited to the 8 Westin resorts in the plan. This would give you 12 month priority to any of them, including WPORV, and it allows you to book 1 to 14 days starting on any day of the week. This is nice if you want to travel on an off day of the week. The downside is (1) maintenance fees are high, but pretty close in line with the other Hawaii properties, and (2) because it is voluntary, if you buy resale won't get StarOptions to go to the other Vistana resorts not in Westin Flex. But the 8 resorts in Westin Flex are good ones. This is much less restrictive then say buying a WPORV week resale where all you can do is a week there or trade in II.


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## jackball (May 3, 2021)

At the risk of being chastised by the group, this might be one of those times where buying from the developer is the most workable option.  If you buy WPORV resale, you will only be going to that resort.  If you buy WPORV from the developer, you will pay a premium but will have the ability to book Princeville at 12 months and the flexibility to book other resorts at 8 months.


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## vacationtime1 (May 3, 2021)

My suggestion is a 2bd Platinum+ Kierland eoy.  OP prefers Kauai to Maui and the Kierland unit should work for July reservations at Princeville at the eight month mark.  For the Maui trips, rent.  For the Orlando trips, Getaways may be available.


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## KeithR (May 3, 2021)

thanks for the suggestions. I'm definitely the log-in exactly 8 months and book kind of person - in fact, that's usually how we book intl business class flights on points.

it might still be best to buy in WKV (sorry for the typo, daviator) and roll the dice for a few years and sell less a commission if things don't work out. I don't think Hawaii is mandatory every year now. Seems Princeville is a decent shot at 8 months, but Maui isn't. That's fine with us.


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## DavidnRobin (May 3, 2021)

jackball said:


> At the risk of being chastised by the group, this might be one of those times where buying from the developer is the most workable option. If you buy WPORV resale, you will only be going to that resort. If you buy WPORV from the developer, you will pay a premium but will have the ability to book Princeville at 12 months and the flexibility to book other resorts at 8 months.



WPORV Developer Cost >$50,000
WPORV Resale ~$6,000

WPORV is easy to exchange into using StarOptions.


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## carpie99 (May 3, 2021)

2 bedroom Vistana Platinum Mandatory - 81,000 pts = 1 bedroom


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## vacationtime1 (May 3, 2021)

carpie99 said:


> 2 bedroom Vistana Platinum Mandatory - 81,000 pts = 1 bedroom


A WKV shoulder season 2bd unit does get only 81000 StarOptions, but a WKV platinum+ week 2bd gets 148100 SO's.  Same MF's.


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## KeithR (May 3, 2021)

follow up question: if we purchase in Maui and book 12 months in advance for July - but see openings in Princeville 8 months out can we switch properties for that year?


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## vacationtime1 (May 3, 2021)

KeithR said:


> follow up question: if we purchase in Maui and book 12 months in advance for July - but see openings in Princeville 8 months out can we switch properties for that year?


Yes.


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## rcv82 (May 3, 2021)

One other option: Buy the WPORV resale of you can get it around $6k. Then buy $10k in Flex from developer to requalify WPORV in network of you want StarOptions. 


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## DavidnRobin (May 4, 2021)

rcv82 said:


> One other option: Buy the WPORV resale of you can get it around $6k. Then buy $10k in Flex from developer to requalify WPORV in network of you want StarOptions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



WPORV MFs are some of the highest in VSE.


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## KeithR (May 6, 2021)

did the math on Marriott last night - wow, thats expensive for Hawaii during the summer. We would need 5k points for island views, so $33k upfront plus equivalent MFs. More flex due to the larger network, but still. Also, their premier property on Kauai is Kalapaki Bay which is nice with an amazing pool area, but prefer the quieter Princeville/Poipu locations.

I'm going to reach out to Syed on WKV vs. WKORVN for ADA units. Perhaps easier to get than regular villas at 8 months.


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## CPNY (May 6, 2021)

KeithR said:


> did the math on Marriott last night - wow, thats expensive for Hawaii during the summer. We would need 5k points for island views, so $33k upfront plus equivalent MFs. More flex due to the larger network, but still. Also, their premier property on Kauai is Kalapaki Bay which is nice with an amazing pool area, but prefer the quieter Princeville/Poipu locations.
> 
> I'm going to reach out to Syed on WKV vs. WKORVN for ADA units. Perhaps easier to get than regular villas at 8 months.


WKV is a great option. As you said earlier, If it doesn’t work out for you, you can always sell it. Of course future resale value depends on what Marriott does to the VSN. IMO future availability in the VSN is uncertain. We all hope it will look like it has in the past, but a new program could change the way we book our favorite resorts in the VSN. Of course, mandatory owners could be big winners, time will tell.  

As long as you know that change is inevitable and are willing to play the midnight at 8 month game, then WKV is a great option.


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## KeithR (May 7, 2021)

Syed is a really nice guy - we had a pleasant discussion. He walked through both Maui options in excellent detail (OV at South and IV at North are the best options due to unit availability) and we prefer the North property. He recommended not taking chances with a summer timeshare at 8 months but admitted Princeville isn't near as popular. ADA is available and he has wheelchair clients at each.

He also has a Marriott Waiohai legacy week available that is better from a MF basis ($2250). I'm assuming that's just a normal timeshare with II exchange, nothing special. Yes? It does make a lot more sense that $3100 for Princeville MFs (yikes!). Perhaps I need to be comparing Waiohai to a WKV purchase.


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## vacationtime1 (May 7, 2021)

Waiohai is very different compared to either Westin Princeville or Ka'anapali.  Waiohai is entirely dedicated two bedroom units (no lockoffs).  The units are smaller.  Most have lousy or zero water views (many of the "island view" units overlook a parking lot).  _Excellent_ adjacent beach.  I suggest renting there at least once before buying.

Full disclosure:  we owned at Waiohai for 15 years (sold it last year), have stayed at Princeville and Ka'anapali numerous times, and think the world of Syed.


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## Tucsonadventurer (May 7, 2021)

We own 148, 000 (rounded #) at Kierland and seem to always get into Maui. My son in law is a teacher so we often go school vacations. The availability could change down the road when/if  Marriott integrates more completely with Westin but right now we are thrilled with our ownership. Between North, south and Nanea, there are a lot of units. We dont always find 2 bedrooms, sometimes we reserve a 1 bedroom and a studio and if they can they will put them together for you, no guarantees.  Maybe we have just been lucky but we have owned for 6 yrs now and have had great exchanges


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## CPNY (May 7, 2021)

KeithR said:


> Syed is a really nice guy - we had a pleasant discussion. He walked through both Maui options in excellent detail (OV at South and IV at North are the best options due to unit availability) and we prefer the North property. He recommended not taking chances with a summer timeshare at 8 months but admitted Princeville isn't near as popular. ADA is available and he has wheelchair clients at each.
> 
> He also has a Marriott Waiohai legacy week available that is better from a MF basis ($2250). I'm assuming that's just a normal timeshare with II exchange, nothing special. Yes? It does make a lot more sense that $3100 for Princeville MFs (yikes!). Perhaps I need to be comparing Waiohai to a WKV purchase.


If you want to go to Hawaii most of the time, then buy there. Buying at kaanapali will give you the ability to use SO at 8 months in the event you want to go to Princeville.


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## KeithR (May 7, 2021)

This is all very helpful, thanks. 

My struggle with WKORVN is paying $1k more in annual MFs knowing I want to trade into Princeville. And in Vistana, seems mandatory resorts are hugely preferable over the life and worth the premium.


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## KeithR (May 7, 2021)

what's a decent price for WKL right now? under 15k?


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## needvaca (May 7, 2021)

KeithR said:


> This is all very helpful, thanks.
> 
> My struggle with WKORVN is paying $1k more in annual MFs knowing I want to trade into Princeville. And in Vistana, seems mandatory resorts are hugely preferable over the life and worth the premium.


DO NOT buy WKORV if you really want to go to Princeville. It is too expensive. 
Westin Kierland Villas  (WKV) or SVV Bella or Key West are a much better buy if you strictly buying for Staroptions. 

WKV is a great buy at $12k-$13k. It’s a decent buy at $14-$15k. I own both WKV and SVV and both have been great


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## CPNY (May 7, 2021)

KeithR said:


> what's a decent price for WKL right now? under 15k?


I’ve heard under 12k in the beginning of the pandemic wasn’t impossible. I’ve seen a few listings at $13,500 since. I’d love a WKV but as we get closer to Marriott/Vistana integration, not really knowing what the future of the VSN will look like makes me a bit nervous to lay out such a high amount of money for a trader unit. Units like that could be big winners or big losers depending on how the integration is set up. In the end, we are dealing with timeshares and anything can change. SVV is an easier buy in and less risk upfront, but if the VSN stays the same long term then WKV would be best.


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## KeithR (May 8, 2021)

thanks - we are going to roll the dice on WKV. my fiance wants flexibility and I like Westin Princeville > Marriott Poipu (we aren't beach people, she's a hiker). i wouldn't mind spending a week for spring training in scottsdale once in awhile either.

I also have a sneaky suspicion trading into an ADA room at 8 months is going to be easier than regular units, but we shall see. with the difference in maintenance fees, we can go 3 years and absorb the resale fee hit even if it doesn't work.


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## CPNY (May 8, 2021)

KeithR said:


> thanks - we are going to roll the dice on WKV. my fiance wants flexibility and I like Westin Princeville > Marriott Poipu (we aren't beach people, she's a hiker). i wouldn't mind spending a week for spring training in scottsdale once in awhile either.


Perfect! Good luck. You’d be getting a great ownership in the VSN


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## mauitraveler (May 8, 2021)

KeithR said:


> thanks - we are going to roll the dice on WKV. my fiance wants flexibility and I like Westin Princeville > Marriott Poipu (we aren't beach people, she's a hiker). i wouldn't mind spending a week for spring training in scottsdale once in awhile either.
> 
> I also have a sneaky suspicion trading into an ADA room at 8 months is going to be easier than regular units, but we shall see. with the difference in maintenance fees, we can go 3 years and absorb the resale fee hit even if it doesn't work.


Great choice!  Also, if you are comfortable with depositing the smaller 1-BR into Interval, we've been lucky to trade into a 1-BR at KORVN for three summers in a row.  However, we pay our MF early, so that we can deposit early so that we can be higher in the queue for our request to be matched.  Happy travels to you!  CJ


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## KeithR (May 8, 2021)

fyi - one just traded yesterday at $15k


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## sherakay (May 8, 2021)

C


CPNY said:


> I’ve heard under 12k in the beginning of the pandemic wasn’t impossible. I’ve seen a few listings at $13,500 since. I’d love a WKV but as we get closer to Marriott/Vistana integration, not really knowing what the future of the VSN will look like makes me a bit nervous to lay out such a high amount of money for a trader unit. Units like that could be big winners or big losers depending on how the integration is set up. In the end, we are dealing with timeshares and anything can change. SVV is an easier buy in and less risk upfront, but if the VSN stays the same long term then WKV would be best.


Could you please expound on what you meant if the VSN stays the same long term WKV is better? I’m trying to buy a SVV.


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## echino (May 8, 2021)

If your goal is Maui in the summer, buy WKORV or WKORVN, but only ocean view or oceanfront. Do not buy island view.


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## CPNY (May 9, 2021)

sherakay said:


> C
> 
> Could you please expound on what you meant if the VSN stays the same long term WKV is better? I’m trying to buy a SVV.


SVV is great. It’s what I own as well. Who knows what the future holds. WKV has extremely low maint fees and in the long run is a better ownership for that fact.


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## sherakay (May 9, 2021)

CPNY said:


> SVV is great. It’s what I own as well. Who knows what the future holds. WKV has extremely low maint fees and in the long run is a better ownership for that fact.


Their maintenance fees are nice but I just couldn’t rationalize paying $9700 for 81K compared to $1250 for 81K because it would take 21 years to break even


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## CPNY (May 9, 2021)

sherakay said:


> Their maintenance fees are nice but I just couldn’t rationalize paying $9700 for 81K compared to $1250 for 81K because it would take 21 years to break even


1250 for 81K standard platinum or a lockout?


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## sherakay (May 9, 2021)

Standard. A negotiated price before I realized I wanted a EOY


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## CPNY (May 9, 2021)

sherakay said:


> Standard. A negotiated price before I realized I wanted a EOY
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That’s a great price. I’d go for it


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## KeithR (May 9, 2021)

I was told by a broker that it’s ~$10k for 148,200 SO at Vistana.


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## byeloe (May 9, 2021)

sherakay said:


> Their maintenance fees are nice but I just couldn’t rationalize paying $9700 for 81K compared to $1250 for 81K because it would take 21 years to break even


WKV does hold its value pretty well, so the difference is not as big


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## DavidnRobin (May 9, 2021)

WKV (Plat+) has rentability 
along with low MFs
and a great resort.

Our WKVs have more than paid for themselves in renting alone.


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## needvaca (May 9, 2021)

KeithR said:


> I was told by a broker that it’s ~$10k for 148,200 SO at Vistana.


Be sure he’s not trying to sell you Westin Flex or Sheraton Flex. Westin Kierland Villas is much better and comes with mandatory staroptions and have resale value


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## DanCali (May 9, 2021)

sherakay said:


> Their maintenance fees are nice but I just couldn’t rationalize paying $9700 for 81K compared to $1250 for 81K because it would take 21 years to break even




That's not the best way to think about it because you are assuming the resale value would be zero for both in the future. I purchased out first 2 WKV units in 2009-2010 (bad economic times) and can still sell them today for more than my purchase price. You are buying on the resale market and you will sell in the future on the resale market. Yes, prices can go down if maintenace fees go up or if the system changes in unfavorable ways, but the point I'm making is that your ufpront cost is more like an investment, not a cost you never see back (e.g. maintenace fees).


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## sherakay (May 9, 2021)

DavidnRobin said:


> WKV (Plat+) has rentability
> along with low MFs
> and a great resort.
> 
> ...



Oh I’m buying this for my family to use! There won’t be any SO leftover to rent after I book our family trips! We also own DVC and paid a pretty penny for that resale as well and we’ve rented out points twice and we make a nice profit to use back when we wanted to take a cruise instead. But if you do things legally you have to claim income on timeshare rentals when you do taxes so the profit margin gets cut slimmer.

Anything can happen in the next five to ten years so knowing I didn’t put a lot in to begin with makes me feel better about adding on another timeshare system. If and when we do sell we don’t have to worry about possibly taking a ‘hit’ because we didn’t really put ourselves out there to begin with.

But I can’t wait to see WKV this Sep when we go for the first time for our anniversary. Unless of course the Covid restrictions lift and we’ll do Mexico instead.


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## sherakay (May 9, 2021)

DanCali said:


> That's not the best way to think about it because you are assuming the resale value would be zero for both in the future. I purchased out first 2 WKV units in 2009-2010 (bad economic times) and can still sell them today for more than my purchase price. You are buying on the resale market and you will sell in the future on the resale market. Yes, prices can go down if maintenace fees go up or if the system changes in unfavorable ways, but the point I'm making is that your ufpront cost is more like an investment, not a cost you never see back (e.g. maintenace fees).



Yes I can understand that. We bought two DVC contracts in 2017, one small one direct for blue card benefits and a large one resale. We ended up selling the small direct one last year because of Covid and bought a trailer instead. We sold for more on the resale market than we paid buying direct.

But due to the unknown changes coming down the line in 2022 and 2023 from Marriott and knowing how they look down their noses aresale buyers I don’t think the future of resale contracts from Vistana will hold their value.
If the CEO speech from last year holds firm and they create one interchangeable product between Marriott/Vistana and knowing how they view resale contracts I think they will make the ability of resale buyers to exchange into their properties a non-starter without a huge cash outlay to requal their contracts. So even though these properties are ‘mandatory’ now, they might _seem _‘voluntary’ to future buyers because they might feel they won’t get access to the _whole _Marriott portfolio.

But in another year or two once we know how things pan out and I find 81k SO isn’t enough and I want to buy more, depending on how much MF are then I’m sure I can find a 67,100 1BD WKV at a much more palatable price. I just have no intention of staying a week there and we’d only go for a few days around our anniversary in week 38/39 which is gold plus and not hard to book from what I’ve been told so I won’t need home resort advantage.


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## KeithR (May 13, 2021)

update: opening escrow with a private party for a WKV Platinum 2BR LO. $14.5k + closing costs

very excited, looking forward to a smooth transaction and booking WPORV for next summer.


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## DanCali (May 14, 2021)

Congrats!


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## KeithR (May 14, 2021)

the way I would think about SVV vs WKV if resort/location didn't matter is to produce the following CFs:

0. negative cash flow for the SVV purchase price
1. take the difference in SVV/WKV purchase price and invest that in the S&P 500 @ 7% (opportunity cost)
2. subtract the MF difference as SVV is higher
3. subtract WKV 2x MF rentals periodically (once every 4 years?)
4. include a sale at a set date (say 10 years) + what you believe the depreciation on WKV may be (if any)
5. PV that stream @ 8%

then you can compare to today's WKV cost differential.

but most people won't do #1 and spend $ elsewhere. so it really just becomes a MF difference play over set time frame with the occasional rental. terminal value decline (ie. sale in year X) is probably similar for both as WKV holds decent value and SVV is cheap to begin with.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (May 14, 2021)

KeithR said:


> the way I would think about SVV vs WKV if resort/location didn't matter is to produce the following CFs:
> 
> 0. negative cash flow for the SVV purchase price
> 1. take the difference in SVV/WKV purchase price and invest that in the S&P 500 @ 7% (opportunity cost)
> ...



No matter what numbers I used I kept getting the same answer. 42


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## MICROZE (May 16, 2021)

KeithR said:


> update: opening escrow with a private party for a WKV Platinum 2BR LO. $14.5k + closing costs
> 
> very excited, looking forward to a smooth transaction and booking WPORV for next summer.


Looks like prices have gone back up.
Thought with COVID the price would still be low.

In March we closed on a EY-2BR-WVK Platinum+ 148.1K for $10K + Closing via RedWeek Full-Service.

Have seen others on TUG report closing on EY-2BR-Platinum+ 148.1K for between $8K to $9K.


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## KeithR (May 16, 2021)

saw one trade for 12k early in the pandemic on redweek. but those probably also had to pay pandemic year MFs so prices "should go back up." hawaii wasn't even usable last year (and still isn't open - we are going to BI Fairmont in July and fingers crossed).

i know a bunch were wanting WKV to fall to 10k in a summer pandemic thread, but never saw any transactions. at this point I feel $13.5k-14k is a good deal, I paid slightly over. Could have held out at my $14k offer level to several ads but made the deal. As mentioned before, the $15.5k week on RW traded at $15k.


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## MICROZE (May 16, 2021)

KeithR said:


> saw one trade for 12k early in the pandemic on redweek. but those probably also had to pay pandemic year MFs so prices "should go back up." hawaii wasn't even usable last year (and still isn't open - we are going to BI Fairmont in July and fingers crossed).
> 
> i know a bunch were wanting WKV to fall to 10k in a summer pandemic thread, but never saw any transactions. at this point I feel $13.5k-14k is a good deal, I paid slightly over. Could have held out at my $14k offer level to several ads but made the deal. As mentioned before, the $15.5k week on RW traded at $15k.


We made an offer of $10K on this in FEB and they accepted within a few hours with no counter. Next Use-Year 2022.
There were others listed on RedWeek in Feb that showed asking of $10K with a status of "Sold".


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## KeithR (May 16, 2021)

I’m glad you scored. Someone clearly needed to get out.


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## MICROZE (May 16, 2021)

KeithR said:


> I’m glad you scored. Someone clearly needed to get out.


There were many listings on RedWeek earlier in the year for ~$10K [EY-2BR-WKV-P+]  which is why I am surprised in the sudden jump.


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## KeithR (May 16, 2021)

It would be nice if RW would give complete sale history but they don’t. I was looking last summer/fall and didn’t see anything under 13.5k. Oh well, it is what it is and I might have missed a bargain. One off eBay sold north of 15k end of April. The market has reset.


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## DavidnRobin (May 16, 2021)

KeithR said:


> It would be nice if RW would give complete sale history but they don’t. I was looking last summer/fall and didn’t see anything under 13.5k. Oh well, it is what it is and I might have missed a bargain. One off eBay sold north of 15k end of April. The market has reset.



Back in the day - we had an eBay thread for SVO (now VSE).
It was one of the most viewed threads on TUG.

No way RW is going to give a sales history - easy enough to track (along with rents) as there are many.

WKV P+ is a quadruple threat: VSN Mandatory, low MF/SO, great resort, and ability to rent.
Ours have easily paid for themselves regardless of price variation.


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## DavidnRobin (May 16, 2021)

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> No matter what numbers I used I kept getting the same answer. 42



We bought two resale WKV P+ 1Bd in 2007/8  - since then we have stayed 4 times (Spring Training), exchanged into WKORV (1Bd) twice to tag onto our WKORV OFD usage, and rented the other weeks at >$1K over MF the rest of the time.
And they are worth approx same as paid for them back in 2007/8.
That’s the math I care about.
Hard to beat.


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## KeithR (May 17, 2021)

Here's another one- my dad bought a 2BR OF fixed week at the Royal Resorts in the early 90s for ~$10k (MFs $500-$700 for most of it), stayed there for 29 straight years until the Royal Caribbean was sold in 2018. He received $7k back from the sale, just slightly less than the residual.


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## DanCali (May 17, 2021)

MICROZE said:


> There were many listings on RedWeek earlier in the year for ~$10K [EY-2BR-WKV-P+]  which is why I am surprised in the sudden jump.




How many of those listings are the "many" you saw? The ones currently marked on RW as "sold" for $9999 are actually 1BR units. If you saw a 2BR sell for $10K that was IMO  probably a highly unusual case and must have been some kind of distressed sale due to a job loss, inheritance or maybe another unfortunate matter. We live in unusual times, but if a distressed sale happens that doesn't necessarily turn it into the new "market price". I myself bought our first 2 weeks at WKV around 2009/10 (another highly challenging economic period) in what I'd consider "distressed sales" - we were in the right place at the right time and found the right situations without even looking too hard. But that's not the norm and I couldn't repeat that feat for many years thereafter, and I was trying a lot harder. 

Another example - I'm currently looking to buy another Platinum week at a Marriott resort and talked to an agent who told me she had 4 inherited weeks that sold for a certain price I would have been ecstatic to pay. I would have bought al 4 for that price... The problem is that I've been looking for someone to sell at the price for 2 years now and still haven't found that person, even with the recent economic downturn. So it all depends on how much you want to wait for that one opportunity.

To consider a reasonable price to pay consider the rental value as an example. That's not factoring in the fact the WKV gives you Hawaii and Atlantis access with a very generous SO/MF ratio - just rental value. The reason the WKV price is not $10,000 is that WKV 2BR P+ easily *rents* for $4500+ every year, and went for even $5000+ this current year when there were limited travel options and everyone had cabin fever. So if you can get $2500-$3000 over maintenance fees, even at a cash $15,000 outlay that's a 17%-20% annual return on investment. Can you point to many real estate investments with that kind of return on investment? Obviously if you can buy it for less your return would be higher and if you pay more the return is lower. But I'd argue that if someone asked you to pay as high as $25,000 and get $2500 annual income (over your annual expenses) without mentioning the words "timeshare" or "Kierland" that 10% annual return would seem attractive to many people (assuming the $25,000 outlay was mostly recoverable at the end in order for it to actually be a 10% annual return).


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## MICROZE (May 17, 2021)

DanCali said:


> How many of those listings are the "many" you saw? The ones currently marked on RW as "sold" for $9999 are actually 1BR units. If you saw a 2BR sell for $10K that was IMO  probably a highly unusual case and must have been some kind of distressed sale due to a job loss, inheritance or maybe another unfortunate matter. We live in unusual times, but if a distressed sale happens that doesn't necessarily turn it into the new "market price". I myself bought our first 2 weeks at WKV around 2009/10 (another highly challenging economic period) in what I'd consider "distressed sales" - we were in the right place at the right time and found the right situations without even looking too hard. But that's not the norm and I couldn't repeat that feat for many years thereafter, and I was trying a lot harder.
> 
> Another example - I'm currently looking to buy another Platinum week at a Marriott resort and talked to an agent who told me she had 4 inherited weeks that sold for a certain price I would have been ecstatic to pay. I would have bought al 4 for that price... The problem is that I've been looking for someone to sell at the price for 2 years now and still haven't found that person, even with the recent economic downturn. So it all depends on how much you want to wait for that one opportunity.
> 
> To consider a reasonable price to pay consider the rental value as an example. That's not factoring in the fact the WKV gives you Hawaii and Atlantis access with a very generous SO/MF ratio - just rental value. The reason the WKV price is not $10,000 is that WKV 2BR P+ easily *rents* for $4500+ every year, and went for even $5000+ this current year when there were limited travel options and everyone had cabin fever. So if you can get $2500-$3000 over maintenance fees, even at a cash $15,000 outlay that's a 17%-20% annual return on investment. Can you point to many real estate investments with that kind of return on investment? Obviously if you can buy it for less your return would be higher and if you pay more the return is lower. But I'd argue that if someone asked you to pay as high as $25,000 and get $2500 annual income (over your annual expenses) without mentioning the words "timeshare" or "Kierland" that 10% annual return would seem attractive to many people (assuming the $25,000 outlay was mostly recoverable at the end in order for it to actually be a 10% annual return).


Between Jan/Feb I saw at least 4.

They dont show up anymore on RedWeek.
Including the one I purchased [which was listed at $11K see snippet I posted earlier in this thread] no longer shows up on RedWeek.

We own 6 x WKV 2BR-P+ Weeks.
Prior to this purchase, we purchased at different times for between $12K & $15K averaging out to ~$13.5K/Week.


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## EnglishmanAbroad (May 17, 2021)

DavidnRobin said:


> We bought two resale WKV P+ 1Bd in 2007/8  - since then we have stayed 4 times (Spring Training), exchanged into WKORV (1Bd) twice to tag onto our WKORV OFD usage, and rented the other weeks at >$1K over MF the rest of the time.
> And they are worth approx same as paid for them back in 2007/8.
> That’s the math I care about.
> Hard to beat.
> ...



That's far too simple. Can you please use the formula provided?


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## DavidnRobin (May 17, 2021)

EnglishmanAbroad said:


> That's far too simple. Can you please use the formula provided?



LOL - Truly

And I never bought any Timeshare thinking that it was anything other than an investment in vacationing (the only truth that came from TS Sales), and not a financial one other that trying to get best value upfront.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DanCali (May 17, 2021)

DavidnRobin said:


> We bought two resale WKV P+ 1Bd in 2007/8  - since then we have stayed 4 times (Spring Training), exchanged into WKORV (1Bd) twice to tag onto our WKORV OFD usage, and rented the other weeks at >$1K over MF the rest of the time.
> And they are worth approx same as paid for them back in 2007/8.
> That’s the math I care about.
> Hard to beat.
> ...






MICROZE said:


> Between Jan/Feb I saw at least 4.
> 
> They dont show up anymore on RedWeek.
> Including the one I purchased [which was listed at $11K see snippet I posted earlier in this thread] no longer shows up on RedWeek.
> ...



I haven't been following resales closely for many years but my impression was that prices were around $13K-$15K. I think they were $16-$18K prior to the 2008 financial crisis, so as DavidnRobin said, it's kept its value quite well over the past 15 years and for many good reasons. There was a tug member (glorian?) who used to keep track of eBay resales in a spreadsheet.

You will tend to get the best deals in periods like 2009/10 and 2020 because in economic downturns a fire sale is more likely to pop up, but those opportunities don't last for long. The market price is ultimately what people are willing to pay for it on a given day...



DavidnRobin said:


> LOL - Truly
> 
> And I never bought any Timeshare thinking that it was anything other than an investment in vacationing (the only truth that came from TS Sales), and not a financial one other that trying to get best value upfront.
> 
> ...



The "investment in vacationing" argument is something the timeshare salespeople pitch, but most of us here bought resale because of the financial aspect. I assume you also did that with most or all of your weeks?

So even if you think of it as "investing in vacationing" the purchase price matters. I assume the underlying rationale somewhere is that you are better off owning than renting your vacations from others on RedWeek. You'd rather own and pay maintenance fees of $1700 than rent the same week from someone for $4500 because that saves you almost $3000 every time you do it. So you're willing to pay $X upfront for those savings and hope that those $X won't devalue too much (hence you buy resale rather than from the developer). Or maybe also you get a lot of utility from a great oceanfront view at WKORV and want to own it and make sure you are the first to book at exactly 12 months out so you get the best view. But in the end there is always the alternative of renting vacations without owning so the decision to "invest in vacationing" (i.e., own) should translate to some for of personal benefit, whether financial or otherwise, no?


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## KeithR (May 17, 2021)

Agree that $13k-$15k is a good range for now. Things may change if Marriott tosses things up in 2022.

I did find a January thread that said 6 platinum weeks were on RW between $12k-$16k at the time.


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## MICROZE (May 17, 2021)

KeithR said:


> Agree that $13k-$15k is a good range for now. Things may change if Marriott tosses things up in 2022.
> 
> I did find a January thread that said 6 platinum weeks were on RW between $12k-$16k at the time.


Not sure on what basis RedWeek clears out history as my $11K listing [which closed at $10K] does not show up.

Here is what I see on RedWeek right now.
A couple of $12K listings that are closed. 
At $12K I assume they were for 148.1K-SO and its possible they could have closed at offers below asking.


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## KeithR (May 17, 2021)

when i was looking in August, those same 2 units were "sold", the $13.5k was available. look at the old MFs on one, too. I don't think RW updates this correctly.


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## KeithR (May 19, 2021)

just offered another one at $14.5k from the broker who is in escrow at $15k..my guess is he would take $14k if he doesn't have to post it on RW. nice chap if anyone wants to bargain with him. $400 closing costs iirc.


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## KeithR (Aug 7, 2021)

Update: took 60 days to close my timeshare with Vistana, not too shabby.

I just looked 8 months out, see Princeville and Nanea have available 2BR ADA units available and it even tells you the ADA features for easy booking. Excellent news! There are no 1BR even at the other 2 Kaanapali properties in early April available.


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## Tucsonadventurer (Aug 7, 2021)

KeithR said:


> Update: took 60 days to close my timeshare with Vistana, not too shabby.
> 
> I just looked 8 months out, see Princeville and Nanea have available 2BR ADA units available and it even tells you the ADA features for easy booking. Excellent news! There are no 1BR even at the other 2 Kaanapali properties in early April available.


Wonderful news! You will love it!


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## celica7101 (Aug 7, 2021)

KeithR said:


> Update: took 60 days to close my timeshare with Vistana, not too shabby.
> 
> I just looked 8 months out, see Princeville and Nanea have available 2BR ADA units available and it even tells you the ADA features for easy booking. Excellent news! There are no 1BR even at the other 2 Kaanapali properties in early April available.



Did you book for next summer?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sherakay (Aug 7, 2021)

KeithR said:


> Update: took 60 days to close my timeshare with Vistana, not too shabby.
> 
> I just looked 8 months out, see Princeville and Nanea have available 2BR ADA units available and it even tells you the ADA features for easy booking. Excellent news! There are no 1BR even at the other 2 Kaanapali properties in early April available.


60 days from which point? RedWeek’s titling company had my deed filed 6/28 as I saw it online for SVV. How long from deed filing did it have to take? I was hoping to use our SO at WKV for 9/24-9/29 for our anniversary.
I keep trying to ‘connect’ out membership online using our social # but it can’t find us. How much longer till I should panic lol?


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## robertk2012 (Aug 7, 2021)

jackball said:


> At the risk of being chastised by the group, this might be one of those times where buying from the developer is the most workable option.  If you buy WPORV resale, you will only be going to that resort.  If you buy WPORV from the developer, you will pay a premium but will have the ability to book Princeville at 12 months and the flexibility to book other resorts at 8 months.


WKORV resale is likely a better option


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## KeithR (Aug 8, 2021)

celica7101 said:


> Did you book for next summer?



We are waiting until November to book July


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## KeithR (Aug 8, 2021)

sherakay said:


> 60 days from which point? RedWeek’s titling company had my deed filed 6/28 as I saw it online for SVV. How long from deed filing did it have to take? I was hoping to use our SO at WKV for 9/24-9/29 for our anniversary.
> I keep trying to ‘connect’ out membership online using our social # but it can’t find us. How much longer till I should panic lol?



We started the process 5/13 with LTT. Received the deed 6/17 and Vistana transfer approval 7/21. Hope that helps.


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## sherakay (Aug 8, 2021)

KeithR said:


> We started the process 5/13 with LTT. Received the deed 6/17 and Vistana transfer approval 7/21. Hope that helps.


Thanks! That really hurts to hear. I find the whole process with Redweek was slow. Slow to get responses about offers. Slow to draw up contract and get all our info then give it to the title company. Slow to get deed filed. Probably slow to get deed transfer to Vistana too. Did they send you a copy of the deed or you saw it filed online? How did Vistana contact you to let you know the transfer was completed? Were you already Vistana owners?


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## KeithR (Aug 8, 2021)

they didn't send us anything - LTT gave us an email address mvworlaccountsupport@vacationclub.com if we had issues once we had a contract number.

but i was just able to register at Vistana and assign the contract # and everything popped up. we are first time owners.


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## KeithR (Aug 10, 2021)

just an fyi, the pending WKV sale on Redweek is at $14,500


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## Pmuppet (Aug 14, 2021)

KeithR said:


> just an fyi, the pending WKV sale on Redweek is at $14,500



You are going to love your WKV week.  I bought mine to go on spring break with my kids to Scottsdale, and now, I am having second thoughts.  I can trade into all sorts of cool places for Spring Break like Nanea, Westin Princeville, Atlantis, even WSJ!

Making me think of renting the spring break week at Westin Kierland and using the WKV to trade into one of the other awesome destinations.  And I agree with the others, this property has held its value great.  I have been looking for years for a bargain and they are rare.  You did good because if you messed around trying to save $1k, you might have missed your 2022 Westin Princeville vacation.  Best to get in now, learn the system and start time sharing at the awesome resort that my wife and I fell in love with TUG/timeshares.


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## CoHiker (Aug 14, 2021)

Lots of great advice in this thread. Thank you everyone for chipping in and helping newbies like me understand.

I know Platinum weeks offer the best MF/Points ratio. However, because of the initial cash outlay I have been thinking of a WKV Gold season. There are some good deals to be had on a couple of 2BR LO at WKV right now. 81K SO for around 3k. Does anyone think it is a bad idea to pursue these deals? Talking me out of pulling the trigger?


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 14, 2021)

CoHiker said:


> Lots of great advice in this thread. Thank you everyone for chipping in and helping newbies like me understand.
> 
> I know Platinum weeks offer the best MF/Points ratio. However, because of the initial cash outlay I have been thinking of a WKV Gold season. There are some good deals to be had on a couple of 2BR LO at WKV right now. 81K SO for around 3k. Does anyone think it is a bad idea to pursue these deals? Talking me out of pulling the trigger?


If you would be doing this solely for StarOptions, there are SVV units (Key West and Bella sections only) that are cheaper to buy and have lower MF's.  Look for two bedroom non-lockoff units during highest season.


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## sherakay (Aug 14, 2021)

CoHiker said:


> Lots of great advice in this thread. Thank you everyone for chipping in and helping newbies like me understand.
> 
> I know Platinum weeks offer the best MF/Points ratio. However, because of the initial cash outlay I have been thinking of a WKV Gold season. There are some good deals to be had on a couple of 2BR LO at WKV right now. 81K SO for around 3k. Does anyone think it is a bad idea to pursue these deals? Talking me out of pulling the trigger?


Just buy SVV. I just bought one with 81k SO for only $800


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## rcv82 (Aug 14, 2021)

sherakay said:


> Just buy SVV. I just bought one with 81k SO for only $800



But do check out the treads on the rumors on what might happen with StarOptions and the integration with MVC. Buying just for StarOptions might not work as well in the future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## grrrah (Aug 16, 2021)

rcv82 said:


> But do check out the treads on the rumors on what might happen with StarOptions and the integration with MVC. Buying just for StarOptions might not work as well in the future.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm in the process of a purchase, and while I know that is the risk.  Is the general backup plan to re-qualify it with $10k or whatever purchase in the future?  Of course nothing until we know more.  Best to also pick up a non-mandatory and re-qual multiple?


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## rcv82 (Aug 16, 2021)

grrrah said:


> I'm in the process of a purchase, and while I know that is the risk.  Is the general backup plan to re-qualify it with $10k or whatever purchase in the future?  Of course nothing until we know more.  Best to also pick up a non-mandatory and re-qual multiple?



My guess (which is nothing more than that), is that a mandatory property will maintain some type of in-network benefit based upon the disclosers for these properties. The question is what is the network and what trading value will it have in the network? For example, today 81k StarOptions will get you a 1 bedroom at any of the Hawaii properties any time of the year (excluding oceanfront) when there is availability 8 months or less out. There is a chance they could adjust the network currency to look more like (or be part of) the MVC Destinations Club. With MVC, the points required for the Hawaii properties generally cost more than many other properties, and they vary somewhat by week. So if they left the SVV week at the equivalent of 81k StarOptions, maybe it will take 100k to get a slow week in Maui and 120k for a high demand week. The important thing is we do not know, and there are all sorts of rumors. What we DO know is that if you buy a SVV week you will always be able to use that week at SVV in the season you bought, likewise for WKV or WKORV.

Regarding requalification, I've done this on a few properties. If they figure out how to not give resale mandatory owners full network benefits, then maybe there will be something worthwhile there. For now, it is most useful if you bought a voluntary resale to bring it in network.


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## KeithR (Oct 3, 2021)

Question - when I purchased my WKV week, it already had a spring break reservation. When I want to reserve Princeville do I make a new reservation and cancel the existing through that process or do I have to cancel the existing reservation and then do a new reservation?

Thanks!


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## CPNY (Oct 3, 2021)

KeithR said:


> Question - when I purchased my WKV week, it already had a spring break reservation. When I want to reserve Princeville do I make a new reservation and cancel the existing through that process or do I have to cancel the existing reservation and then do a new reservation?
> 
> Thanks!


You’ll cancel the spring break reservation then make a new reservation when the star options are returned to your account.


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## KeithR (Oct 26, 2021)

A couple of weeks ~14k have popped up on Redweek


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## KeithR (Nov 8, 2021)

Just an update with accessibility for my July 8th travel date - we are booked for Princeville! Poipu was the only other Hawaii property available with ADA rooms. Colorado, California, Florida all had space of course. No Cabo, Lagunamar, or WSJ.

I also checked regular 2BR availability and Cabo, Lagunamar, Nenea, and WSJ were all available at 8 months out. No WKORV-N.


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## grrrah (Nov 9, 2021)

Booked Lagunamar for July 4th week at 8 mos.  Plenty, though non-ada, even got an oceanside (first time seeing those).


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## KeithR (Jul 5, 2022)

Well, we finally are using our timeshare on Friday! So excited to return to Kauai as owners


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## Kildahl (Jul 5, 2022)

KeithR said:


> Well, we finally are using our timeshare on Friday! So excited to return to Kauai as owners


Aloha and enjoy! Please consider letting us know  about your resort experience.
I would observe that your time on TUG was well spent, likely saving you alot of time and money recently and in the longrun. Please consider dropping your Guest status by becoming a Tug Member. It is quite reasonable!


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## chris1278 (Jul 6, 2022)

Kildahl said:


> Please consider dropping your Guest status by becoming a Tug Member.



How does that happen? I am pretty sure I paid for a membership several months ago but my status still says guest.


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## tamu_bu (Jul 6, 2022)

chris1278 said:


> How does that happen? I am pretty sure I paid for a membership several months ago but my status still says guest.


Some help below. Membership to TUG and the forum are disconnected.









						TUG MEMBERS: Entering the BBS Member Codeword in your TUGBBS profile
					

This post applies to the following situations:  You have paid to become a TUG member, but are being shown on the BBS as "Guest". You have paid to become TUG member, but you cannot see or access the Sightings/Distressed forum when logged into TUGBBS. You have paid to become a TUG member, and you...




					tugbbs.com


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## KeithR (Nov 7, 2022)

So in year 2, we were able to choose WPORV, WSJ (surprised), and WNOV. Wife wants to experience Maui once, so off next summer we go. It's tough taking a toddler to WSJ through multiple connections and ferries. Maybe when she's older


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## duke (Nov 7, 2022)

RENT see Redweek. Get exactly what you want.  No MF's.


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