# Do you know how much you are getting skimmed?



## DanCali (Jul 11, 2010)

Each weeks owner bought into a season, but the new "seasons" in points are different and vary by week. If you believe that the number of points you should have gotten is equal to the average required to trade into your resort  in the season you bought (i.e., points required to trade into all weeks in a season = points allocated to all owners of that season) then you were probably surprised to realize you got less. Some have referred to this as "skimming"

So how much are you getting skimmed? In an effort to help owners who have not computed this, I've created a spreadsheet computing the average points required to trade into each season at each resort...

A few notes:

1) The spreadsheet is based on the 2011 Friday to Friday calendar. If it did not appear from the weeks calendars that the resort had a Friday checkin I did not compute the average

2) Doing the same calculations based on Saturday checkins may produce slightly different results. However, all points calendars seem to be based on Friday checkin weeks, so this was easier to do.

3) I am not familiar with most of the resorts first-hand so I may have misinterpreted seasons. If so, please let me know and I will update the document.

4) If something was unclear it is highlighted in red bold font. If an owner at that resort will clarify it, I can make any relevant changes.

5) Some copying and pasting was involved. If you find any mistakes in your spreadsheet please let me (and others) know and they will be fixed.

6) I will reiterate that due to the points above there may be errors in the spreadsheet... If a result seems surprising, and you find a mistake I will try to fix it in a timely fashion.

7) If you don't care about skimming - you do not need to look at this file...

With those caveats, *here is a link to the document...*

The document just tells you the average required to trade into your season at your resort. To figure out the "skim", compare that number to the points you were allocated should you join the points program.

I personally value each point at about $0.50, but your mileage may vary. Perhaps Marriott will soon start renting points and we can use their price to determine the cost of skimming. Whatever value you place on a point, you can use that to place a dollar value on skimming. One can interpret this as the cost to convert to points.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 11, 2010)

Mine is easy.  I am getting skimmed 100%.  I get zero points for my bronze weeks.


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## DanCali (Jul 11, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Mine is easy.  I am getting skimmed 100%.  I get zero points for my bronze weeks.



You can still use the spreadsheet to see the average to trade into your season 

But yes, if you got zero the skim will be 100%, no matter what the average is


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## camachinist (Jul 11, 2010)

Nice job! I think I like my milk with the fat in it; good old Vitamin D for D'licious 

Everything matches up for Newport Coast AFAIK.


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## DanCali (Jul 11, 2010)

camachinist said:


> Nice job! I think I like my milk with the fat in it; good old Vitamin D for D'licious
> 
> Everything matches up for Newport Coast AFAIK.



WRT to NCV, that is one where checkin day makes a small difference. Week 22, June 3 (Fri) checkin is Gold season but June 4 (Sat) checkin is Platinum. Slotting week 22 in the Platinum season will affect the averages of both seasons slightly, but not by much... (~20 pts)


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## JimIg23 (Jul 11, 2010)

Nice, thanks for doing that.  I was a bit surprised at NCV, all I have been looking at is the summer weeks and thinking the amount I was skimmed was massive...  It is actually only a few hundred points under average, just like my Harbour Lake.......


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## camachinist (Jul 11, 2010)

The key with NCV is the disparity between the platinum weeks most commonly booked, which are July and August, and the points which are awarded for surrendering a platinum NCV for points. On the surface, the averages appear great, but when you take the lowest of those week's 'cost', 4225, and subtract the 3475 surrender, that's 750 points, or 7500.00 cost and 300.00 MF, if one could purchase only 750 points, basing on projected pricing. Add another 500 for July and fugetabout the fixed week of July 4.

Note that the 'low' part of platinum season is the same as all of gold season, with the exception of the one week prior to the holiday fixed week, which is much higher.

Gold is a much 'better' deal, with 2900 charged and 2700 awarded, but almost no one I know, outside myself, owns gold at NCV. Was I a sucker? IDK, Easter gets me nearly 2K every year...


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## pipet (Jul 12, 2010)

*Thanks!*

That was a lot of work!  And very thorough!  It even reminded me that I have a 1-51 plat (as opposed to 1-50) at the Waoihai.

Some people see the new points system as making the playing field more even, especially for higher valued resorts.  They dismiss complaints that some resorts weren't valued very highly as whining by unhappy uptraders who bought el cheapo resorts/time.

I wish they'd see that not all the complaints are from uptraders.  Lateral traders are not happy, either.  Ko Olina was apparently priced a couple bucks less than my own resort based on points awarded, so I should be able to trade in the point system there, right???  Not unless I downgrade view, downsize, or go in off-season (which I can't because I've got a school-age child)!  And to the people who maintain that's not a big deal because II didn't guarantee view: an IV at my resort can't afford to get an IV at Ko Olina except in off-season.  The fact that I can't get that week without eating into my next years points (thus forcing me to trade for points a 2nd year) is not right.

It doesn't mean that people shouldn't consider the new system (fee savings for some, etc are other aspects), but to me we should ALL be up in arms about not being able to make lateral trades.  

I know, life sucks, it's not fair, etc, but I expected more from Marriott.


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## GregT (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> If you believe that the number of points you should have gotten is equal to the average required to trade into your resort  in the season you bought (i.e., points required to trade into all weeks in a season = points allocated to all owners of that season) then you were probably surprised to realize you got less. Some have referred to this as "skimming"
> 
> So how much are you getting skimmed?



This is a good working process -- but it understates the skim for both 1) a fixed week owner and 2) a dual-week owner who's mastered booking prime reservations at 13 months.  The use of an average for the season understates what each of those owners is giving up.

I know exactly how much I'm being skimmed --- 13.3% for my high TDI fixed week properties.  That's 1,675 points for each week, or $838 per week at $0.50 per point.  

Best to all,

Greg


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## camachinist (Jul 12, 2010)

The shocking thing for myself, looking at the points charts, is how badly II was downtrading our NCV through their system of assigning trade power. Awful. I think it's going to be rent-swap from now on. I like the points assignments better


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## Lawlar (Jul 12, 2010)

*Basic Question*

Just to show you how confused I am, I have read hundreds of posts but I still don't know what you mean exacting by "skim."  Does that mean the points assigned are not equal between resorts?  Or does it mean something else?

Marriott has determined my unit is worth 7475 points.  If I were to join the program (unlikely, but it might be tempting if I could do it one year only), will my unit always be worth 7475 points?  And if my unit's points don't increase in future years, does it mean that Marriott will be free to increase the points it takes to "trade" into another resort (or my own resort)?

Is it going to be like Reward Points that get devalued as Marriott increases the number of points it takes to get a week at a resort?

I can see Dave M writing in the future that it is fair for Marriott to increase the points it takes to acquire a week at a resort because of inflation increasing Marriott's costs.  But Marriott fails to understand that our units should also appreciate in value.

Can someone explain the skim thing for me?

Dave M: I'm sorry I'm picking on you in this post (nothing personal).  But I cringe every time you back Marriott's decision to devalue my reward points that I've been collecting for almost 30 years.  I'm getting close to one million reward points, and they get smaller and smaller, despite all the money I spent over the years to earn those points.


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## 5infam (Jul 12, 2010)

Take the number of points you get for your unit - then look at the spreadsheet for the season you own, at the resort you own. You will find that the number of points Marriott is giving you for your unit, will not be enough points (most likely, or at least not for the whole season) to obtain a week in your season.

In other words, my Maui Ocean Club gets me 3,100 points if I hand it into Marriott. I always go in July to Maui. If I want to obtain a summer week using points in Maui, my same unit will cost me 3,550 points. So Marriott gives me 3,100 for my summer unit, but charges me 3,550 points to rent it back out - therefore they skim off of me the difference of 450 points. Make sense?

The spreadsheet calculates averages across the entire season, unit size, view, etc for each resort. For instance, if I wanted to use my 3,100 points to trade back into Maui, I could do that, but only for a few off season weeks in my season. The rest of my season costs me more points than they give me. My resort is not that bad, some are getting skimmed far worse.


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## 5infam (Jul 12, 2010)

Lawler - I just looked your unit up - now I understand why you don't understand the skim. You own a fixed week in January (week 4), Ocean Front 2 bedroom. If Marriott is saying you get 7,475 points for this unit - then that is exactly equal to how many points it would take, in 2011 to get the same week in the exact same unit. So for you, if you wanted to roll your week over to the following year, so you could have 2 - 2 bedroom units, ocean front, week 4, then you could do so with no skim. 

However, let's say you wanted to trade your week in for points, and then go for 2 weeks in 2011 - your week #4, plus the following week, which is week #5 (January 28th, 2011). You still get your 7,475 from Marriott for your trade in of your week #4, but that week #5 week, the week following your week, will cost you 8,650 points from Marriott. So if you wanted to trade in for points, so you can get your same unit and go for 2 weeks the following year, you can do it with no skim, but it will need to request week #3, not week #5. If you want week #5, then that will cost you an extra 1,175 in points - thus the skim.

Sorry if I confused you further in any way - I am still trying to get all this straight myself.


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## camachinist (Jul 12, 2010)

> Marriott has determined my unit is worth 7475 points. If I were to join the program (unlikely, but it might be tempting if I could do it one year only), will my unit always be worth 7475 points? And if my unit's points don't increase in future years, does it mean that Marriott will be free to increase the points it takes to "trade" into another resort (or my own resort)?



I'm unclear on that from documents, but my best guess that the point level you enroll your week at will never drop. So, if you get 7475, that's what you'll always get and your MF's will run with your underlying resort as they do currently.

The difference is, now, as a deeded weeks owner, you will always get a week at your home resort. Your deed guarantees you that. Beyond that, you're at the whim of Marriott and how they decide to handle the reservations, exchange and points systems. They're entitled to do that, legally. So, if they 'devalue' the DC by changing the points chart Dan worked on, they can do that. If they want to change the rules and policies of reserving and exchanging, to the limits your governing documents allow, they can do that. 

As a fellow MRP collector, I appreciate your concern about the devaluing of MRP's. That's why I'm an advocate of 'earn and burn'. However, regardless, those MRP's are a perk of your loyalty, even though I consider their cost to Marriott to be rolled into the price they charge you. Since Marriott charges that price to everyone, MRP collector or not, fair enough; consider it 'free'. The DCP thing is a whole different game. You're paying cash to participate, especially if you choose to 'buy' points and, at minimum, you're paying an enrollment fee to join your already paid-for week into the system, so the future changes to the points 'values' impact the value of your enrollment, concurrent with the impacts of value of your underlying week. It impacts the value of your 'pre-paid' vacation and I'm not talking resale value, rather value as a vehicle for pleasure and enjoyment, which is what it was purchased for (in most cases). 

I hope this week brings some interesting meetings at MVCI. I hope they serve milk, fat free


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

GregT said:


> This is a good working process -- but it understates the skim for both 1) a fixed week owner and 2) a dual-week owner who's mastered booking prime reservations at 13 months.  The use of an average for the season understates what each of those owners is giving up.



I agree with this and as a NCV owner can also relate. If someone is a dual week owner who is persistent and lucky enough to get high-demand weeks, the average of the season is not representative and underestimates what you'd be shortchanged if enrolling in points. But the average of the season is an objective measure and even based on that benchmark things don't look that good.

For fixed week owners the computation is much simpler. For the fixed weeks defined as Platinum Plus, I did separate those out. For other owners owning fixed weeks, the computation should be easy enough - just see what it required to trade into the fixed week you own and compare to what Marriott gave you... 

Losing 1600+ points on a fixed Maui week hurts.


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## LAX Mom (Jul 12, 2010)

I have a question about skimming. Many people have stated that skimming doesn't matter if you continue to use your week at your home resort. Do nothing and you can still get a week in the season you own = no skimming.

However, what if you enroll your weeks and decide to switch to points for the coming year (2011). So prior to Oct. 31 you give your week to Marriott and get XXX number of points in return. Then during 2011 you can't find a location you'd like in exchange for your points and decide you'd rather just stay at your home resort that year. So at that point you don't have enough points for 7 nights at your home resort. 

How does Marriott answer the skimming issue in the above situation? You've traded for points, but later decide to stay at your home resort and don't have enough points to book in your season. Couldn't this happen with the new points program?


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## LisaH (Jul 12, 2010)

I think there might be mistake for Canyon Villas. Week 22-34 are in Gold season and I can't believe it takes 4175 points to reserve a 2BR. As a matter of fact, according to Marriott's published table, it takes only 1725 for these weeks.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

Lawlar said:


> Just to show you how confused I am, I have read hundreds of posts but I still don't know what you mean exacting by "skim."  Does that mean the points assigned are not equal between resorts?  Or does it mean something else?
> 
> Marriott has determined my unit is worth 7475 points.
> 
> ...





5infam said:


> Lawler - I just looked your unit up - now I understand why you don't understand the skim. You own a fixed week in January (week 4), Ocean Front 2 bedroom. If Marriott is saying you get 7,475 points for this unit - then that is exactly equal to how many points it would take, in 2011 to get the same week in the exact same unit.



Lawlar - the simple explanation of skim is that Marriott gives owners less points than it requires to trade into what they own. So someone owning a fixed week may get 5000 points but Marriott charges others 6000 points to exchange into that week. It creates a situation where if, for a particular resort, you add what what owners in a season got and compare to what Marriott requires to book all those weeks you have a lot of points missing. Where the missing points go is anyone's guess since this issue is not addressed anywhere. Marriott could maybe rent out unused weeks, rent owners back the skimmed points etc. We just don't know.

5infam - no skim for a particular unit seems to me like an oxymoron so let's dig in a bit deeper and find it  

The skim for this fixed week is a bit harder to assess because of a couple of reasons. First, the Maui fixed week calendar shows they are only Saturday to Saturday. The points calendars are Friday-Friday. The second reason is that there is a big jump in points required to trade into this resort on January 28, 2011 which is Week 4 for a Friday checkin and Week 5 for a Saturday checkin.

To get a better idea of the magnitude of the skim, let's first look at the 2012 calendar. We know Lawlar got 7475 for hix fixed week 4 2BR OF at the Maui villas. Fixed week 4 (Sat-Sat) is Jan 28-Feb 4. Using the points calendar for 2012, it takes 8650 points to trade into a full week in that 2BR for the period from Jan 27 to mid February. So the skim in 2012 is 1175 points (or close to $600 at $0.50 per point)

The reason the skim is more hidden in 2011 is the abberation in the calendar that Friday checkin for week 4 (Jan 28) happens 6 days after the Saturday checkin for week 4 (Jan 22)... This probably happens every 6-7 years, but should be the exception to the norm.

If we want to get precise about what happens in a year like 2011, there is still a skim, only smaller... Week 4 is technically Jan 22-29 in 2011. The points required for those 7 mights are:

Jan 22 (sat) - 1350
Jan 23 (sat) - 950
Jan 24 (sat) - 950
Jan 25 (sat) - 950
Jan 26 (sat) - 950
Jan 27 (sat) - 950
Jan 28 (sat) - 1575

Total: 7675

SO the skim in a year like 2011 is "only" 200 points. The skim in the next years until such an abberation happens again (5-6 years I think) will be 1175 points. Relative to 8650 (the "true" value of the week) thats 13.5%, very close to what GregT reported for his Maui fixed weeks.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

LisaH said:


> I think there might be mistake for Canyon Villas. Week 22-34 are in Gold season and I can't believe it takes 4175 points to reserve a 2BR. As a matter of fact, according to Marriott's published table, it takes only 1725 for these weeks.



You are correct. I accidentally copied the wrong line. A new version has been uploaded... Hopefully it makes it look less bad 

Thanks for the catching this!


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## 5infam (Jul 12, 2010)

See, just when I think I have things down, someone comes in and proves me wrong . Nicely done - I just took a quick glance at a google search on "2011 timeshare weeks calendar", and went on the assumption that week 4 was always the last week in January for the lessor points. 

However, if he owned a week 3 - and wanted to trade in for points for another week 3, there would be no skim in that case - right?


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

LAX Mom said:


> I have a question about skimming. Many people have stated that skimming doesn't matter if you continue to use your week at your home resort. Do nothing and you can still get a week in the season you own = no skimming.
> 
> However, what if you enroll your weeks and decide to switch to points for the coming year (2011). So prior to Oct. 31 you give your week to Marriott and get XXX number of points in return. Then during 2011 you can't find a location you'd like in exchange for your points and decide you'd rather just stay at your home resort that year. So at that point you don't have enough points for 7 nights at your home resort.
> 
> How does Marriott answer the skimming issue in the above situation? You've traded for points, but later decide to stay at your home resort and don't have enough points to book in your season. Couldn't this happen with the new points program?



That is a very good point.

Yes it could happen. And I am not aware that anyone has asked this.

As a side note - I think one needs to think about it slightly differently. Basically once you redeem for points in a given year you are like a points owner. You have no home resort and the best thing to do is to stop thinking like a weeks owner at that point...  You just try to use the points you got (post skim) in whatever manner works best for you. If you make a reservation at (what was) your home resort or elsewhere that's neither here nor there. Once you have the points, you are not restricted to a particular resort or season (you can, in fact, book a different season at your "home" resort). You are only limited by availability and the number of points you have.

If you'll take a look at the spreadsheet for NCV you will see that some Platinum weeks are 2900 points to book and some are 4700. The fact that I got 3475 versus ~3700 (the average of the season) means there was skim. With the 3475 points I can still book the 2900 points Platinum weeks and come out ahead but the fact that NCV is my home resort doesn't really matter at this point, nor does it negate the skimming. Note that had I gotten the full 3700 points I'd have more points left over when booking a 2900 point week and would still be unable to book the 4700 points weeks. On the other hand, I can book in the Gold season too and I can book at any other resort with using the 3475 points I got. The issue is that Marriott should have given me 3700 points, because that's the number that represents the average "trade power" of my season.

And this skim issue seems to affect 100% of weeks owners.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

5infam said:


> See, just when I think I have things down, someone comes in and proves me wrong . Nicely done - I just took a quick glance at a google search on "2011 timeshare weeks calendar", and went on the assumption that week 4 was always the last week in January for the lessor points.
> 
> However, if he owned a week 3 - and wanted to trade in for points for another week 3, there would be no skim in that case - right?



Now you are changing the story  

If he had a fixed week 3, I don't think Marriott would value his week at 7475 points 

Marriott has been pretty consistent with the 6%-13% haircut in value.


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## pipet (Jul 12, 2010)

GregT said:


> This is a good working process -- but it understates the skim for both 1) a fixed week owner and 2) a dual-week owner who's mastered booking prime reservations at 13 months.  The use of an average for the season understates what each of those owners is giving up.



It also underestimates what 12 month owners are used to getting.  I'm used to booking in the summer without any difficulty, so altho using averages my skim is only 374 pts, in reality, I lose 800 pts for booking in summer, and it feels like skim as I need those points to get into similarly priced resorts (like-for-like exchanges).  For someone who got up early to book President's week or other holiday weeks, their realized skim is 1100 at my resort with OV.  It's true, they aren't guaranteed those weeks, but at least you have a shot with the weeks system.  

I guess at this point I'd be happier if Marriott changed their points system to give the average w/o skim (cause at least that would have a rationale and is as fair as possible to fix stupid floating seasons), other than their profit), but it would still be painful for anyone who can't travel at off-peak times.


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## tombo (Jul 12, 2010)

Great chart Dan, and the best analytical explanation of skim on the whole Marriott forum. I am sure it took a lot of work and I know many here appreciate you taking the time to detail the points and post them. I looked at details that affected me, you figured out details for the good of all. Thanks again for the hard work.

I feel that the best way for Marriott to have done it was to give all seasons (example platinum weeks) at a resort the same number of points rather than the average. Even giving platinum owners the average number of points in te platinum season doesn't work out well for owners. Even if they had given all platinum owners the average for the season (they didn't give enough to even equal the average at most resrts), then NO platinum owners could afford to reserve the best weeks because all are out of reach using the average number of points. If ALL platinum owners had the option based on availability to reserve ALL platinum weeks, why should any week(s) now be out of reach using points? I assume it is so Marriott can profit by skimming points from owners. 

If your week at your resort is a platinum week, and all platinum owners can reserve weeks 21 to 36, then give all owners enough points to book  any week 21 to 36, not just enough points to reserve week 21 or 36 (or as in many cases not enough points to book any platinum week). If Marriott deems those weeks at your resort are worth 3000 points, then give ALL platinum owners at that resort  3000 points. You now can trade for any 3000 point week at any resort, and you also can bank points and reserve 2 platinum weeks in your home resort the following year (one with points, one with home week). That would be fair and a points program I would join. I will not join the current program where they aren't even giving me enough points to reserve ANY week in my season.


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## Cindala (Jul 12, 2010)

tombo said:


> I feel that the best way for Marriott to have done it was to give all seasons (ex platinum weeks) at a resort the same number of points rather than the average. If ALL platinum owners had the option based on availability to reserve ALL platinum weeks, why should any week(s) now be out of reach using points? I assume it is so Marriott can profit by skimming points from owners.



Well said, but if Marriott didn't do this, then no weeks owner would have the need to buy any points and there wouldn't be any revenue generated. It's all about making money, disguised behind the idea that flexibility is the better way.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

tombo said:


> I feel that the best way for Marriott to have done it was to give all platinum weeks at a resort the same number of points rather than the average. If ALL platinum owners had the option based on availability to reserve ALL platinum weeks, why should any week(s) now be out of reach using points?
> 
> If your week at your resort is a platinum week, and all platinum owners can reserve weeks 21 to 36, then give all owners enough points to book  any week 21 to 36, not just enough points to reserve week 21 or 36 (or as in many cases not enough points to book any platinum week). If Marriott deems those weeks at your resort are worth 3000 points, then give ALL platinum owners at that resort  3000 points. You now can trade for any 3000 point week at any resort, and you also can bank points and reserve 2 platinum weeks in your home resort the following year (one with points, one with home week). That would be fair and a points program I would join. I will not join the current program where they aren't even giving me enough points to reserve ANY week in my season.



The certainly would have been the best outcome but would have prevented the "reseasoning" that they did (I'm not saying the reseasoning was necessary, but just making a point).

If they did do the reseasoning, where they give weeks in the same season different points requirements to exchange into, and then give owners enough points to book any week in the season (i.e., points equal to the most valuable week rather than the average) it would have created a situation where all the owners combined have more points than are available in the system, which is probably an illegal outcome. Giving the owners the average at least would have prevented that outcome. Giving owners less than the average is skimming - which ironically must be legal  

What you suggest would have been possible if they did what many, if not all, other developers do with points systems - i.e., require the same number of points to book any week in a season. Then give owners that same number...

You raise an interesting point that was also raised by pipet... many tuggers would be unhappy with even getting the average points required to exchange into their season (which is probably the best we can do given the reseasoning). We are used to calling at exactly 13 or 12 months out, we are persistent, and on average probably manage to book better weeks than the average owners. Many probably wouldn't enroll even if Marriott did give us the average because we'd complain there was "skim" relative to the highest valued week...

However, I think that if Marriott gave owners the average required to trade into their season, they would probably have less of a PR problem on their hand. The discussion would switch to whether or not the reseasoning was fair. While there are arguments for and against, the reseasoning is probably at least more understandable than the skimming, which even now we don't know where all those points go (6%-13% of all the points of people who redeem for points in a given year is a lot of money to follow around). 

FWIW, I think that if I got the average of the season I would have probably enrolled as an NCV owner... when you combine getting the average "trading power" of your season for points trades, with the ability to still book any week at your home resort as a week, and do II trades for uptrades it's not such a bad combo. Then getting the average of your season is the cost you pay for the convenience of instant confirmation, but at least you don't feel that Marriott dips its hands in your pockets each time you use points.


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## siberiavol (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> That is a very good point.
> 
> Yes it could happen. And I am not aware that anyone has asked this.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your hard work and useful information. I think your" side note" high lights a concept that would be useful to many on this board. When you shift asset classes focus on what you have not what you use to have. Points are a different asset class in a sense. 

For an enrolled member the decision is whether to go to points for each property. If you decide to give up your week for points  wouldn't it be the most productive use of time to see how to use the currency you  have now.

In another year you get another chance to decide what to do. People shift from stocks to bonds to property etc all the time. How many times do we get a chance to start fresh each year with a maximun loss of $199 plus the one time fee to enroll.


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## GregT (Jul 12, 2010)

Cindala said:


> Well said, but if Marriott didn't do this, then no weeks owner would have the need to buy any points and there wouldn't be any revenue generated. It's all about making money, disguised behind the idea that flexibility is the better way.



This is exactly right -- without the skimming, owners would be able to do like-for-like and the need to purchase 1,000 points packages would be much reduced.

However, skimming often leaves the points converter 300-500 points short of what they really need to use the system, requiring that they consider a purchase of points for $9,200 (1,000 points at $9.20).

I have no problem at all with a for-profit company ensuring its financial success and viability -- but this is very disappointing that Marriott adopted this approach to disguise the true cost of the system .   I personally would have much preferred a higher enrollment fee and paying fees for transactions outside of my home resort (reservation fee, housekeeping fee, etc similar to HGVC).

All the best,

Greg


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 12, 2010)

siberiavol said:


> Thanks for your hard work and useful information. I think your" side note" high lights a concept that would be useful to many on this board. When you shift asset classes focus on what you have not what you use to have. Points are a different asset class in a sense.
> 
> For an enrolled member the decision is whether to go to points for each property. If you decide to give up your week for points  wouldn't it be the most productive use of time to see how to use the currency you  have now.
> 
> In another year you get another chance to decide what to do. People shift from stocks to bonds to property etc all the time. How many times do we get a chance to start fresh each year with a maximun loss of $199 plus the one time fee to enroll.



I agree that you need to check the cost to go to each property.  I view the skim as a currency exchange fee.  When you go to Europe and exchange dollars to Euros, you pay a fee to do so.  There is a buy rate and a sell rate for Euros, the difference is what the exchange company takes as profit.  Same is true for Marriott.

To provide the best analysis, convert the points you get into a $MF/point (e.g. If you get 3000 points and your maintenance fees are $1000, then your $MF/point is $.30), then check some scenarios you are considering by multiplying that $MF/point by the number of points required for that trade.  If the cost alarms you, don't do it.  If it seems reasonable, then go for it.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 12, 2010)

GregT said:


> This is exactly right -- without the skimming, owners would be able to do like-for-like and the need to purchase 1,000 points packages would be much reduced.
> 
> However, skimming often leaves the points converter 300-500 points short of what they really need to use the system, requiring that they consider a purchase of points for $9,200 (1,000 points at $9.20).
> 
> ...



You will probably be able to rent points from other owners or even from Marriott rather than purchasing points for $9200 per thousand.


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## GregT (Jul 12, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> You will probably be able to rent points from other owners or even from Marriott rather than purchasing points for $9200 per thousand.



Agreed -- I feel sorry for the points converter who doesn't realize they can transfer (ie rent) points from others to make up for the points shortfall and writes the check for $9,200 and then $400 annually in MFs.


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## Lawlar (Jul 12, 2010)

*Thank You*

Thank you for explaining the point skimming concept.  That was really helpful to me.  

You folks are great!!!

Now I think I'll hang on to my fixed week deed and skip this skimming nonsense.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I view the skim as a currency exchange fee.  When you go to Europe and exchange dollars to Euros, you pay a fee to do so.  There is a buy rate and a sell rate for Euros, the difference is what the exchange company takes as profit.  Same is true for Marriott.



You can view it that way but the difference between the Marriott skim factor and a currency exchange fee is that currency exchange fees existed forever and they are acceptable. They are also there to protect dealers from currency fluctuations (as well as profit). 

Marriott's skim is unlike any other points system. It is unprecedented. To me, the better analogy is like a casino charging you a fee to convert your chips to dollars when you go to the cashier to cash out. If Caesar's Palace started that policy next week on the Vegas strip, how long do you think they would stay in business?




BocaBum99 said:


> To provide the best analysis, convert the points you get into a $MF/point (e.g. If you get 3000 points and your maintenance fees are $1000, then your $MF/point is $.30), then check some scenarios you are considering by multiplying that $MF/point by the number of points required for that trade.  If the cost alarms you, don't do it.*  If it seems reasonable, then go for it.*



You can only go for it if you have the points


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You can view it that way but the difference between the Marriott skim factor and a currency exchange fee is that currency exchange fees existed forever and they are acceptable. They are also there to protect dealers from currency fluctuations (as well as profit).
> 
> Marriott's skim is unlike any other points system. It is unprecedented. To me, the better analogy is like a casino charging you a fee to convert your chips to dollars when you go to cashier to cash out. If Caesar's Palace started that policy next week on the Vegas strip, how long do you think they would stay in business?
> 
> ...



I totally agree that Marriott is doing something unprecedented with skim.  I think it's a very bad idea and I hope they repeal it.


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 12, 2010)

GregT said:


> Agreed -- I feel sorry for the points converter who doesn't realize they can transfer (ie rent) points from others to make up for the points shortfall and writes the check for $9,200 and then $400 annually in MFs.



The sad state of timesharing is that those with the knowledge (top 2-3% most of whom are frequent visitors to TUG) do extremely well and the rest struggle or are getting skimmed in many ways that they don't even know about.

In a odd way, those uninformed owners can be helped by the points system despite the skim.  For instance, if a MOC owner has been depositing for equal trades to Orlando, at least in the point system, they can get more than they used to get by using II.


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## tombo (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> If they did do the reseasoning, where they give weeks in the same season different points requirements to exchange into, and then give owners enough points to book any week in the season (i.e., points equal to the most valuable week rather than the average) it would have created a situation where all the owners combined have more points than are available in the system, which is probably an illegal outcome. Giving the owners the average at least would have prevented that outcome. Giving owners less than the average is skimming - which ironically must be legal
> 
> What you suggest would have been possible if they did what many, if not all, other developers do with points systems - i.e., require the same number of points to book any week in a season. Then give owners that same number...
> 
> ...



Marriott would still put the best in season weeks out of reach if they gave owners the average.

If the prime platinum weeks require 3000 points, the least demand platinum weeks receive 2500 points, and all platinum owner's receive the average which is 2750 points, then not a single owner has enough points to reserve a preferred 3000 point platinum week at their reosrt or any resort Marriott asigns the identical point value to. So if resort A and Resort B all have prime weeks requiring 3000 points but all platinum owners at both resorts only receive the average which is 2750 points, then NONE of the owners at resort A have enough points to reserve an identically rated prime week at resort B, and no one at resort B can reserve at resort A, and neither can bank points to reserve a prime week at their own resort the following year. Now you are locked out of all prime weeks at like rated resorts and even at your home resort unless you buy or borrow points. Who ndo you think will end up with the prime weeks that no owners at like resorts can afford to reserve? Could the answer be Marriott?

If they had instead said all platinum weeks at resort A and resort B are worth 3000 points, owners at resort A could (based on availability) reserve a prime platinum week at resort B, and vice versa. Marriott would not be locked out from selling points just because they made the points assignments equitable for all owners. Simple sales pitch. You own 3000 points every year at resort A which will get you like resorts each year like resort B, but the best resorts like resort c in Hawaii require at least 5000 points. If you combine your 3000 points for 2 years you can reserve a 5000 point week with 1000 points left over, but those points won be enough to get a vacation. If you BUY an additional 1000 points you now have 4000 points each year. You use 3000 points to vacation at a like resort this year and you carry over 1000 points to next year giving you 5000 points to reserve a nicer resort/location like resort C in Hawaii. By adding points you can go on a vacation in your home resort or one like it each year and every other year take a much nicert trip.

If they had wanted to, Marriott could have treated owners fairly while still creating a need for owners to buy more points. Almost all   owners but those who own many weeks, or those receiving lots of points from owning a week with the best locations/seasons, will need additional points to continue to vacation at the resorts/weeks they are used to if they use points. The market was there to sell more points to current owners even if Marriott hadn't gotten so greedy and implemented the point stealing skim.


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## windje2000 (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> You can view it that way but the difference between the Marriott skim factor and a currency exchange fee is that currency exchange fees existed forever and they are acceptable. They are also there to protect dealers from currency fluctuations (as well as profit).
> 
> *Marriott's skim is unlike any other points system. It is unprecedented. To me, the better analogy is like a casino charging you a fee to convert your chips to dollars when you go to cashier to cash out. If Caesar's Palace started that policy next week on the Vegas strip, how long do you think they would stay in business?*
> 
> ...



Well put.  Also, thanks for the spreadsheets you put together.


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## pipet (Jul 12, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> The sad state of timesharing is that those with the knowledge (top 2-3% most of whom are frequent visitors to TUG) do extremely well and the rest struggle or are getting skimmed in many ways that they don't even know about.
> 
> In a odd way, those uninformed owners can be helped by the points system despite the skim.  For instance, if a MOC owner has been depositing for equal trades to Orlando, at least in the point system, they can get more than they used to get by using II.



This is very true. I was one of those people who didn't know how to use the system well.  My solution was not to exchange often (and then only back to Hawaii) because I didn't want to eat the loss.  On the surface, the points is very exciting because I do get more value for my week than if I only do a single downtrade exchange with II (no AC, XYZ fun stuff), and I think that's why some of the owners even here on TUG are happy with it; they won't have to work the II system at all.  Also, with II, you don't necessarily have to have HI (or some other expensive week) to get those super deals, and I think that causes some resentment.  The disparity will continue in II if inventory allows (but that's the big question, now).

I think some will write off the ability to do lateral exchanges for the ability to downtrade with the knowledge they are getting more than the little guy who converts (who probably won't convert!), not thinking about how costly such a transaction is to themselves.  I can't be happy with a system that penalizes me, too!  

You can obviously see I am still stuck on not being able to do the island-to-island exchanges with points!:annoyed:   Yes, I should just move on (I'll shutup about it now), but everytime I look at the point redemption chart I'm POd because I do feel like I should be able to get into HI (again, big selling point of HI).  Hopefully with II, I still will for a long, long time.


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## windje2000 (Jul 12, 2010)

Dan - best analytical post on skim on the board.  But it reflects a static analysis - a snapshot in time.  

Points currently are at a $9.20 intro price, and some say they will go to $10.  That's one way of raising prices. 

But there's another way.  

Consider this -- The land trust owns deeds and sells points.  

Marriott controls not only the cash price of points, but also the exchange ratio of points to deeds.  The exchange ratio is 'subject to change.'

Suppose they raise all prices 10% - the price of occupancy goes up 10% and the points assigned to your deed goes up 10%.  I believe DClub rules allow them to do that.   

1.  A villa assigned 4000 points/week rents for 5000 points/week. - 1000 point skim which is 25%.

2.  Prices increase 10% - New prices -  that villa is now assigned 4400 points rents for 5500 points.  

3.  The skim (in percent) stays the same. The skim (in points or units) increases.

The skim is still 25%  [1000/4000 = 1100/4400]  but the unit skim goes from 1000 to 1100.  

4.  The trust just created 400 new points to sell if they own the villa in the example.  

5.  They diluted (skimmed) the interests of the points owners and created demand for more points.  

6.  If you've got points banked, they just got devalued also.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Dan - best analytical post on skim on the board.  But it reflects a static analysis - a snapshot in time.
> 
> Points currently are at a $9.20 intro price, and some say they will go to $10.  That's one way of raising prices.
> 
> ...



My understanding until now is that they cannot just raise all prices by 10%. I thought the number of points at each resort was fixed so if they raise the price (points) for 1 week, they need to lower the price for a different week. I didn't dig into those documents, but that was my impression based on reading other posts somewhere along the way.

What you are saying is something else - and if it is true it could open a whole new can of worms... but I am not sure it'd be allowed for Marriott to do that.

As for the static analysis - that's the best I can do given the data  But at least all the data is there so it's relatively objective and valid given the 2011 calendar we got from Marriott itself...


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 12, 2010)

Wow, that's another can of worms that Marriott can get themselves into.  That would really wreak havoc on their accounting, though.  I don't see them doing it for exactly that reason.  

There is probably just as much chance that Marriott repeals skim as going down that path.


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## GeNioS (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Marriott's skim is unlike any other points system. It is unprecedented.



THanks for all your work on this....i think you're right.  Last year I bought a very small interest in the Wyndham points system.  I bought 84,000 points, which represents a 1br during prime season at the resort.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't thing there is any way that Wyndham can ever change the amount of points it takes to reserve a 1br in prime season.  After all, my points are tied to a deed of a 1br week at the resort.

I can understand how newer resorts may have increased point values...after all, they do cost more to build, inflation, yadda yadda yadda...but it wouldn't make any sense that with me paying maitenance fees to keep up my own resort, there should be no way that my points shouldn't be able to get me into what I purchased year after year....correct?

But now Marriott is telling me that if I join up into their points system that my week isn't worth enough points to rent itself....how does that work?  And it seems (I can't quote anyone in particular) that I get the feeling that people are actually talking about the possibility of Marriott raising the points required to reserve units in the future...much like the devaluation of the rewards points.  There is NO WAY that can happen, right?  I mean, if you're a new owner and you've never known anything other than points and you buy points with the idea it will get you a specific unit year after year...there is NO WAY that one day Marriott is going to tell that guy,"Oops, sorry...this year your points aren't enough to get in anymore...you have to buy more."  Right?

The more I learn the more confused I get.


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## GregT (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> My understanding until now is that they cannot just raise all prices by 10%. I thought the number of points at each resort was fixed so if they raise the price (points) for 1 week, they need to lower the price for a different week. I didn't dig into those documents, but that was my impression based on reading other posts somewhere along the way..



I posed this specific question when I spoke to the Director of Customer Advocacy.   It is my understanding that the points that we are given for our weeks will not change (up or down) once established, however it is very possible that the Marriott Points Chart will change.

Specific weeks may go up/down depending on actual demand and supply, however the total points required will remain the same.  If a specific week goes down, then something else went up to compensate.

By the way, I'm trying to be more on point here -- I started one of my skim rants but then decided it was just repeat of my other skim rants, so I deleted it.  That's progress towards remaining factual, isn't it???   

Best to all,

Greg


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## brigechols (Jul 12, 2010)

GeNioS said:


> THanks for all your work on this....i think you're right.  Last year I bought a very small interest in the Wyndham points system.  I bought 84,000 points, which represents a 1br during prime season at the resort.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't thing there is any way that Wyndham can ever change the amount of points it takes to reserve a 1br in prime season.  After all, my points are tied to a deed of a 1br week at the resort.
> 
> I can understand how newer resorts may have increased point values...after all, they do cost more to build, inflation, yadda yadda yadda...but it wouldn't make any sense that with me paying maitenance fees to keep up my own resort, there should be no way that my points shouldn't be able to get me into what I purchased year after year....correct?
> 
> ...



Your week can get you into the home resort for a week during your season; however,  there is no guarantee that points will get you into the home resort for a week during your season or at any other time. Marriott may increase/decrease the number of vacation club points required to reserve an interval. Also, Marriott may increase/decrease the number of points assessed for your unit if you deposit for vacation club points. For example, today I will receive 4025 vacation club points if I enroll the Ko Olina unit. Next year, Marriott may review the supply/demand for Ko Olina and decide to decrease that number of increase that number.  Just log into your MVCI account and check the value of your week. This disclaimer appears "The points value of my enrolled week(s) and the points required to occupy any particular resort are subject to change."


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

GeNioS said:


> THanks for all your work on this....i think you're right.  Last year I bought a very small interest in the Wyndham points system.  I bought 84,000 points, which represents a 1br during prime season at the resort.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't thing there is any way that Wyndham can ever change the amount of points it takes to reserve a 1br in prime season.  After all, my points are tied to a deed of a 1br week at the resort.
> 
> I can understand how newer resorts may have increased point values...after all, they do cost more to build, inflation, yadda yadda yadda...but it wouldn't make any sense that with me paying maitenance fees to keep up my own resort, there should be no way that my points shouldn't be able to get me into what I purchased year after year....correct?
> 
> ...



I am not that familiar with Wyndham but as far as I know all points systems have the equation that "points in = points out" or, in other words, the total points available for owners to use equal the total points in the entire system. This equation should also hold resort by resort. It does not hold in the Marriott system.

To accomplish that equation you can (i) give all weeks in a season the same point value (tombo's suggestion) both for exchanging in and in terms of points given to owners, (ii) give different weeks different points values (what Marriott did when in switched from weeks to points) and give owners the average required to trade into their season (not what Marriott did). As others pointed out, in option (ii) even if you get the average of the season you will have weeks in your season you cannot reserve with points but at least the points you get represent more accurately the "trading power" of your season. If you got the average points of your season and could still book any week in your season as a week, that's probably something many owners would be somewhat more comfortable with.

As to what can or may happen... your guess is as good as mine. I have yet to see a recorded document with the full rules of this program and what the developer can or cannot do. They gave us reservation rules. But I want to see what happens with the skim, what Marriott can do with those points, when Marriott is allowed to make reservations for itself or for the trust etc... You'd think that has to be disclosed to owners somewhere.


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## m61376 (Jul 12, 2010)

camachinist said:


> I'm unclear on that from documents, but my best guess that the point level you enroll your week at will never drop. So, if you get 7475, that's what you'll always get and your MF's will run with your underlying resort as they do currently.



From what I've been told is that Marriott may make adjustments to both the point allotments and the point cost as their actuarial calculations deem appropriate. Since the total points for the units in the trust remains stable, if one oges up the other goes down. I was told that the points allocated may be adjusted similarly.

Again, this is just what I was told, but it does point out that the points allocated may even go down. For example- Caribbean weeks received on the whole much lower allocations even in Plat. season. IF the demand increases there because of that and more people decide to go there than Hawaii, there could be a point adjustment up for the Caribbean and down for Hawaii. I am not saying that will happen- but if it did, Marirott can make those adjustments- so nothing is guaranteed.


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## camachinist (Jul 12, 2010)

Here's some support for your perspective, from the exchange procedures manual, 094873:0154_1478499.10 3/12/2010 4:27 PM:



> 2. Exchange Members. Each calendar year, an Exchange Member may Deposit Use Periods associated with the Exchange Member’s Interest with the Exchange Company during the applicable Deposit Window. Exchange Members are required to Deposit Use Periods in 7-consecutive evening increments (in accordance with the usage calendar associated with the Exchange Member’s Component). Lock-off portions of an Accommodation are not eligible to be deposited. Deposits may only be made during the Deposit Window for the Use Period that the Exchange Member desires to Deposit. With respect to Exchange Members who own alternate year Interests, such Exchange Members will be entitled to Deposit Use Periods associated with their Interests during the calendar year in which such Exchange Member’s use rights occur, and will be required to use their Exchange Points during the same year; provided, however, such Exchange Member will be assessed Exchange Company Dues on an annual basis.
> For administrative convenience in the operation of the Program and for determination of the respective rights of Exchange Members to enjoy the benefits of the Program, the Exchange Company will assign a Distribution of Exchange Points to each Exchange Member for Use Periods Deposited by the Exchange Member for exchange each Use Year. *The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution for a particular Use Period is based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, Accommodation capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other valuation parameters established by the Exchange Company and may very from year to year by such factors. The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution is not in any way intended to be reflective of the economic value of any Interest.*


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## BocaBum99 (Jul 12, 2010)

camachinist said:


> Here's some support for your perspective, from the exchange procedures manual, 094873:0154_1478499.10 3/12/2010 4:27 PM:



It will be interesting to see how often Marriott changes the skim factor.  If they make it worse, it will really add salt to the wound to owners.  They certainly won't be congratulated for doing such a thing.

I think it's more likely that they decide they made a mistake and get rid of skim.  I am wondering what owners on this message board would do if they did?


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## camachinist (Jul 12, 2010)

'We took another look at the market and responded in a positive and customer-friendly fashion, as is Marriott tradition' 

I have more ideas if they want to buy me dinner. Not much in the fridge for tonight


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## RedDogSD (Jul 12, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> It will be interesting to see how often Marriott changes the skim factor.  If they make it worse, it will really add salt to the wound to owners.  They certainly won't be congratulated for doing such a thing.
> 
> I think it's more likely that they decide they made a mistake and get rid of skim.  I am wondering what owners on this message board would do if they did?



Depends on how they got rid of it.  Would they give owners enough points to get anything in their season, or just the average?  Most NCV owners would not be happy if they could still not get enough points for July, August and most desert owners would not be happy if we could not get enough points for March-April.  

To duplicate the way that Disney, Hilton, etc have done it, they would have to reduce the number of different point reservation categories.  They usually only sold 3 (sometimes 4) seasons, but now they have 6-8 different point totals for the year.


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## windje2000 (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> My understanding until now is that they cannot just raise all prices by 10%. I thought the number of points at each resort was fixed so if they raise the price (points) for 1 week, they need to lower the price for a different week. I didn't dig into those documents, but that was my impression based on reading other posts somewhere along the way.
> 
> What you are saying is something else - and if it is true it could open a whole new can of worms... but I am not sure it'd be allowed for Marriott to do that.
> 
> As for the static analysis - that's the best I can do given the data  But at least all the data is there so it's relatively objective and valid given the 2011 calendar we got from Marriott itself...




My comment about the analysis as static was in no sense intended to be pejorative.  I'll repeat my thanks for your efforts in putting that together and sharing it.

I've seen nothing in the documents that would rule this scenario out.  But I'll be the first to admit I buy pencils with erasers on them


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> Depends on how they got rid of it.  Would they give owners enough points to get anything in their season, or just the average?  Most NCV owners would not be happy if they could still not get enough points for July, August and most desert owners would not be happy if we could not get enough points for March-April.
> 
> To duplicate the way that Disney, Hilton, etc have done it, they would have to reduce the number of different point reservation categories.  They usually only sold 3 (sometimes 4) seasons, but now they have 6-8 different point totals for the year.



But if NCV owners could still book July and August as weeks, then the average of the season in points just represents a fair value for the strength of the Platinum season at NCV. Some owners may still feel that's not fair because their reservation history shows they do better than average, but if you can (i) book any week in your season as a week and (ii) get the fair value of the average "trading power of your season" in points whenever you choose to and (iii) use II for uptrades then that's not all bad...

But, personally, I don't think the skim is going anywhere. I'd be very impressed if Marriott came out, admitted a mistake, and removed it. I don't think it will happen...


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## pipet (Jul 12, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I think it's more likely that they decide they made a mistake and get rid of skim.  I am wondering what owners on this message board would do if they did?



I would at least understand it (there is inherent fairness, and there would be too many points in the system if everyone got the highest value for their season).   *I would accept it. *  The program is still more costly to someone like me (with past infrequent trades), but at least I wouldn't look at it as a ripoff.  In fact, I might be encouraged to join and use points at least every other year to buy 2.5 less expensive weeks just to feel like I was getting value out of the membership fee.

I am sad to pay a price for a poorly designed season in my home resort, but Marriott can't undo what's already deeded for people.  When I bought in Hawaii, I would have paid more for a guaranteed summer season if given the choice.  Getting a summer week was one of my concerns when buying, but the rep assured us that if we reserved early, we would get a summer week, which has been true for us.

I do agree with other postings here that the only way to truly make everyone happy in this regard is to charge the same number of points for any week in a season, making it a true equivalent of weeks.   Still, just eliminating the skim would create a lot of goodwill IMO.

I am also skeptical of Marriott making a change.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

*Note to Moderator*

In the spirit of helping owners understand how the points system affects them, is there any chance we can add the spreadsheet with the average points in each season and resort as a sticky?


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## BocaBoy (Jul 12, 2010)

But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved?  That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".


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## ArtsieAng (Jul 12, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved?  That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".



One example...........I need two units in one year. I want to save my points until the following year so that I can vacation with my grown children/friends. Unfortunately, I cannot book my own week using my points because Marriott has not given me the correct number of points to do so. Sigh.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved?  That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".



Not really... The skim comes from the fact that you get less than the average points required to trade into your season. You are getting shortchanged on your trading power, which happens to be points. It has nothing to do with how you use your points. 

Since you get less than the average of your season, it affects your ability to do like for like trades. Incidentally, it also affects your ability to exchange back into your "home resort" into a representative week if you change your mind, but as I said before I don't view it as a home resort once you convert in a given year.

Taking your above argument to the extreme - if Marriott gave you 1000 points (or, alternatively, just enough to book the lowest demand week in your season) for each of your Hawaii weeks would you still say there was no skim just because you can book a week at your home resort as a week?


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## ArtsieAng (Jul 12, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved?  That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".



Another example......I convert my week into points hoping to be able to exchange into a high demand week/location. Unfortunately, I am unable to get what I was hoping for, so I decide that I would like to book my 2nd choice, my home resort. Nope, no can do.......


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## rsackett (Jul 12, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved?  That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".



It is NOT the only way he is getting skimmed!  Let me put it this way; I own resort "A" it only has one season.  Marriott wants 2500 points to stay one week at my resort.  Marriott offers me 2300 points for my resort.

I would like to exchange into resort "B", Marriott is asking for 2500 points for the week I would like to go to resort "B".  By Marriott's estimation of value, since both A & B require 2500 points they are equivalent weeks/resorts.  In the points system I do not have adequate points to get an equivalent week, I can now with points only get 6 nights for the 7 nights I give Marriott.

For Marriott to say "ALL trading fees are included in our $169 annual fee" and then take value from me when I trade using points is dishonest.  Skimming does matter.

Ray


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## pipet (Jul 12, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> But why would an owner convert his week to points and then use those points to trade into a week he could have simply reserved?  That is what makes no sense to me but it is the only way an owner is getting "skimmed".



Another rebuttal:

I see you own at all the Hawaiian islands where Marriott has a resort, so maybe you don't see the skim.  If you want Maui, you book Maui. If you want Kauai, you book Kauai, etc.  

Now step back and look at Ko Olina. Imagine if you only owned at Ko Olina.  If you have penthouse OV this doesn't apply to you, but look at what other owners have.  A Ko Olina 2BR plat OV gets 4950 points.  Now look at the points to get into the Waiohai at the lowest season.  5025!   You can't get an equal view exchange ever using points! Bah! You say, II couldn't guarantee view anyway.

Now imagine that you own a 2BR Ko Olina IV.  You cant get into Waiohai IV without downsizing your unit!  Those resorts were pretty darn close in price, and if there wasn't skim, at least you could afford low season points bookings (this doesn't take into account season skim at all).

This is what people are complaining about.  As a Waiohai owner, I am annoyed that I don't get my full value when doing interisland exchanges.  

OK, so, Maui costs a little more than my resort, and maybe I shouldn't consider that an equal exchange. OK. I got that. I would understand needing to borrow/rent/etc a few more points to bump me up, but if I am not given full value for my home resort, it means I am way shorter on points than I should be based on how much my resort costs (which is very closely aligned to point values).


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## davidvel (Jul 12, 2010)

rsackett said:


> It is NOT the only way he is getting skimmed!  Let me put it this way; I own resort "A" it only has one season.  Marriott wants 2500 points to stay one week at my resort.  Marriott offers me 2300 points for my resort.
> 
> I would like to exchange into resort "B", Marriott is asking for 2500 points for the week I would like to go to resort "B".  By Marriott's estimation of value, since both A & B require 2500 points they are equivalent weeks/resorts.  In the points system I do not have adequate points to get an equivalent week, I can now with points only get 6 nights for the 7 nights I give Marriott.
> 
> ...



This is the most concise explanation of how skim affects you if you decide to use points.


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## GeNioS (Jul 12, 2010)

rsackett said:


> It is NOT the only way he is getting skimmed!  Let me put it this way; I own resort "A" it only has one season.  Marriott wants 2500 points to stay one week at my resort.  Marriott offers me 2300 points for my resort.
> 
> I would like to exchange into resort "B", Marriott is asking for 2500 points for the week I would like to go to resort "B".  By Marriott's estimation of value, since both A & B require 2500 points they are equivalent weeks/resorts.  In the points system I do not have adequate points to get an equivalent week, I can now with points only get 6 nights for the 7 nights I give Marriott.
> 
> ...


And don't forget the person at resort "B" who wants to trade into my resort A.  They are short enough points as well.....


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## m61376 (Jul 12, 2010)

GregT said:


> I posed this specific question when I spoke to the Director of Customer Advocacy.   It is my understanding that the points that we are given for our weeks will not change (up or down) once established, however it is very possible that the Marriott Points Chart will change.
> 
> Specific weeks may go up/down depending on actual demand and supply, however the total points required will remain the same.  If a specific week goes down, then something else went up to compensate.
> 
> ...


And my understanding is that if the usage/demand dictates it, that both points allocated and point costs can be changed, but if something in the trust goes up, something will go down. Thus, if they find demand between or within properties is different than they expected or changes over time, they can make these adjustments.


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## Hawkwin (Jul 12, 2010)

5infam said:


> Take the number of points you get for your unit - then look at the spreadsheet for the season you own, at the resort you own. You will find that the number of points Marriott is giving you for your unit, will not be enough points (most likely, or at least not for the whole season) to obtain a week in your season.
> 
> In other words, my Maui Ocean Club gets me 3,100 points if I hand it into Marriott. I always go in July to Maui. If I want to obtain a summer week using points in Maui, my same unit will cost me 3,550 points. So Marriott gives me 3,100 for my summer unit, but charges me 3,550 points to rent it back out - therefore they skim off of me the difference of 450 points. Make sense?
> 
> The spreadsheet calculates averages across the entire season, unit size, view, etc for each resort. For instance, if I wanted to use my 3,100 points to trade back into Maui, I could do that, but only for a few off season weeks in my season. The rest of my season costs me more points than they give me. My resort is not that bad, some are getting skimmed far worse.



How is this skimming? Can you not book your home resort without going through this system for a summer month?

The whole point of the new system is to go to a new location within Marriott, not to use it to book a different time at your home resort.

The new system, whether I am a member or not, does not keep me from using any week I purchased at my home resorts. If I wanted to upgrade to a higher demand week (gold to platinum in the case of Myrtle), I still would not be able to exchange for such via Interval - so a higher point cost makes sense.

I paid more for my Vegas week than I did my Myrtle week (and I bought my Vegas week nearly 10 years ago now), yet my Myrtle week is worth 200 more points, so I am getting a bit more value there if I use this new program to stay an extra week in Vegas - and I can save the difference in points for a future year.


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## DanCali (Jul 12, 2010)

Hawkwin said:


> How is this skimming? Can you not book your home resort without going through this system for a summer month?



In order to avoid repetition, please read the replies to BocaBoy following post #55... (in particular read posts 56-62) which address the same question you ask and show that skimming can coexist with the ability to book your home resort.

As for how much you are getting skimmed n each of your weeks, see the spreadsheet linked in post #1.


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## Hawkwin (Jul 12, 2010)

ArtsieAng said:


> One example...........I need two units in one year. I want to save my points until the following year so that I can vacation with my grown children/friends. Unfortunately, I cannot book my own week using my points because Marriott has not given me the correct number of points to do so. Sigh.



In this case, you could still use interval with the deposit first feature to ensure you have that week.

In the example you list above, you are asking for something (right or wrong) that the system was not designed to provide. Interval's method would still be the means by which you can do the above.

I had a similiar situation this year where I could not reserve my requested week via Marriott so I reserved a different week, and then used Interval to exchange for my desired week at the same resort.


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## l2trade (Jul 12, 2010)

DanCali said:


> In the spirit of helping owners understand how the points system affects them, is there any chance we can add the spreadsheet with the average points in each season and resort as a sticky?



I 2nd that idea!!!   

DanCali - Thank you so much for sharing this spreadsheet.  You saved me a lot of time!  Awesome job!   

I think it would be helpful if we can also create a spreadsheet to store the point values Marriott gives owners for converting each of these deeds (as reported by owners? - I'm not sure how else to find this info other than surfing through many threads), along with the MF for that week.


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## DanCali (Jul 13, 2010)

l2trade said:


> I 2nd that idea!!!
> 
> I think it would be helpful if we can also create a spreadsheet to store the point values Marriott gives owners for converting each of these deeds (as reported by owners? - I'm not sure how else to find this info other than surfing through many threads), along with the MF for that week.



I'd need to hire a research assitant for that one 

The point of that spreadsheet was to provide owners the information they need regarding the average points required to trade into their season. I thought about including the points given to each resort/season but (i) I realized I don't have all the information and, more importantly, (ii) it seemed unnecessary given the purpose of the spreadsheet. 

I wasn't interested in calculating the skimming across all resorts. I computed the skimming for my own resort and gave each owner the option to do the same for their resort/season by seeing what the average number of points in their season is and comparing to what Marriott gave them. Now owners (who find this thread) can hopefully make a more informed decision regarding enrollment in the points system in case they didn't previously compute the same info on their own. 

Given the benefit I derived from TUG over the past year, I was happy to spend the past weekend doing this. So far the spreadsheet has been downloaded/viewed over 250 times in 24 hours - I'm glad you and others find it helpful or at least interesting, and appreciate the vote for a sticky


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## DanCali (Jul 13, 2010)

Hawkwin said:


> In this case, you could still use interval with the deposit first feature to ensure you have that week.
> 
> In the example you list above, you are asking for something (right or wrong) that the system was not designed to provide. Interval's method would still be the means by which you can do the above.
> 
> I had a similiar situation this year where I could not reserve my requested week via Marriott so I reserved a different week, and then used Interval to exchange for my desired week at the same resort.



Hawkwin - you keep focusing on everything but the skimming... rsackett probably had an excellent post describing the problem:



> Let me put it this way; I own resort "A" it only has one season. Marriott wants 2500 points to stay one week at my resort. Marriott offers me 2300 points for my resort.
> 
> I would like to exchange into resort "B", Marriott is asking for 2500 points for the week I would like to go to resort "B". By Marriott's estimation of value, since both A & B require 2500 points they are equivalent weeks/resorts. In the points system I do not have adequate points to get an equivalent week, I can now with points only get 6 nights for the 7 nights I give Marriott.
> 
> For Marriott to say "ALL trading fees are included in our $169 annual fee" and then take value from me when I trade using points is dishonest. Skimming does matter.



In your particular case I believe you say somewhere you own at Grand Chateau. Had Marriott given you 2000 points for your Platinum 2BR at MGC would that have still been ok as long as you could book your home resort as a week? There is not much you can do with 2000 points...

How do you determine what is the right allocation? Forget for a second whether you can book your home resort of not - the point is that you have some week with some trading power represented by points. Are you getting that trading power or are you getting less? How did Marriott determine what it gave owners? How do you determine whether what you got is equitable? To me, giving owners the average required to trade into their season seems like the right answer, and also happens to be the answer in all other points systems.

If Marriott gave each owner the average required to trade into their season (3513 for a 2BR 1-51 float at MGC) then the owners would have, in aggregate, enough points to book all weeks available in the points inventory. When Marriott gives owners anything less then (i) you are getting less than the actual trading power of your week and (ii) there are days/weeks that will go vacant in the points inventory. Who monetizes that? Are those weeks rented and the money disbursed to HOAs, or does Marriott monetize those weeks/points? These are important issues that we should not ignore. 10% skim is 10% of points inventory. That's a lot of money that goes unanswered for...


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## ArtsieAng (Jul 13, 2010)

> DanCali
> 
> To me, giving owners the average required to trade into their season seems like the right answer, and also happens to be the answer in all other points systems.



Exactly......Rationalizing that you can still utilize the old system, does not negate the fact that Marriott is skimming weeks in their point system, when it comes to Legacy weeks owners. 

Not a great way to treat/thank 400,000 loyal customers, IMO. In fact, I would have thought that Marriott would have done just the opposite, and somehow, rewarded their Legacy week owners. Oh well.......


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## tombo (Jul 13, 2010)

DanCali said:


> If Marriott gave each owner the average required to trade into their season (3513 for a 2BR 1-51 float at MGC) then the owners would have, in aggregate, enough points to book all weeks available in the points inventory. When Marriott gives owners anything less then (i) you are getting less than the actual trading power of your week and (ii) there are days/weeks that will go vacant in the points inventory. Who monetizes that? Are those weeks rented and the money disbursed to HOAs, or does Marriott monetize those weeks/points? These are important issues that we should not ignore. 10% skim is 10% of points inventory. That's a lot of money that goes unanswered for...



To give owners the average would be better than they are doing now, but it still would be ripping owners off. If every owner gets the average, then every owner would have enough points to get some weeks in their season, but NO owners would have enough points to reserve a prime week in their season. If I am entitled to get any platinum season at my resort, I should be allocated enough points to reserve any platinum season at my resort. Receiving the average leaves ALL prime weeks out of reach of ALL owners, leaving them shorted in the value received versus the value of what you deposited. If no owners get enough points to equal prime weeks at their home resorts, then every owner has to trade down using points throughout the system and nobody gets enough points when they deposit to equal the best weeks they are entitled to reserve.  


As I said if prime in season weeks are 3000 points, low in season weeks are 2500 points, and all owners receive 2750 points, no owners can afford to reserve prime in season weeks because no owners are given 3000 points. You deposit a week worth 3000 points, but you don't get 3000 points to reserve a like prime week elsewhere, or at your own resort the following year. Give all platinum owners at xyz resort 3000 points, make all platinum weeks at xyz resort worth 3000 points, then the system is fair. Why should all in season weeks be available using weeks but only a limited few weeks be available in season using points?


Who gets those prime in season weeks that are out of reach of every owner at every resort? The only people who can reserve like prime weeks at identicaly rated resorts are multiple week owners, owners who borrow points, or those who buy more points. Think of all the points that will remain unused. Who keeps those? Think of all the weeks that are unrentable using points that should have been rentable. Marriott keeps the points they skim, Marriott keeps the leftover points owners don't use after 2 years, Marriott controls the inventory owners can't afford, Marriott comes out like a bandit both literally and figurativelly.


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## ocdb8r (Jul 13, 2010)

tombo said:


> To give owners the average would be better than they are doing now, but it still would be ripping owners off. If every owner gets the average, then every owner would have enough points to get some weeks in their season, but NO owners would have enough points to reserve a prime week in their season. If I am entitled to get any platinum season at my resort, I should be allocated enough points to reserve any platinum season at my resort. Receiving the average leaves ALL prime weeks out of reach of ALL owners, leaving them shorted in the value received versus the value of what you deposited. If no owners get enough points to equal prime weeks at their home resorts, then every owner has to trade down using points throughout the system and nobody gets enough points when they deposit to equal the best weeks they are entitled to reserve.
> 
> 
> As I said if prime in season weeks are 3000 points, low in season weeks are 2500 points, and all owners receive 2750 points, no owners can afford to reserve prime in season weeks because no owners are given 3000 points. You deposit a week worth 3000 points, but you don't get 3000 points to reserve a like prime week elsewhere, or at your own resort the following year. Give all platinum owners at xyz resort 3000 points, make all platinum weeks at xyz resort worth 3000 points, then the system is fair. Why should all in season weeks be available using weeks but only a limited few weeks be available in season using points?
> ...



I think this hits the nail on the head and is the bottom line.  

No matter how you slice it, Marriott is charging other points user MORE to use your week than they are giving you to relinquish your week....THAT is skimming.  Sure, it may not affect your deeded rights as you can always reserve whatever week you want in your season, but any legacy weeks owners that participate in any given year are guaranteeing Marriott will pocket some points somewhere.  Now normally, I am fine and good with a middle man taking his cut, however Marriott is trying to play it as if their cut is only the club fee you pay every year...simply not the case.

Further, as pointed out above, skimming along with many of the other policies, is aimed at reducing overall usage so Marriott can capitalize on flexiblity in order to make $$$ via rentals or other programs.  It also relieves the pressure on the system that will be created from sales from their point trust...as those owners will buy in thinking they ALL will be able to reserve peak nights.  Skimming ensures there is more play in the system so points owners feel like they can get their money's worth.

I don't necessarily agree that you should have received sufficient points to reserve ANY week within your season, as people are correct in pointing out that for you have the right to reserve any week in your season via your traditional deed.  However, I do feel Marriott should have given people the TRUE average of the points required to reserve in their season as opposed the skimming 6-10%

There is ONE possible upside to this debate.  At the end of the day, skimming and these other policies create excess inventory that Marriott has to offload somehow.  While I am sure they will be happy to rent where they can, I think they will also end up with many unused weeks/nights that will get dumped into II.  It may be more last minute, but for flexchangers it could result in some very nice trades.


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## l2trade (Jul 13, 2010)

DanCali said:


> I'd need to hire a research assitant for that one
> 
> The point of that spreadsheet was to provide owners the information they need regarding the average points required to trade into their season. I thought about including the points given to each resort/season but (i) I realized I don't have all the information and, more importantly, (ii) it seemed unnecessary given the purpose of the spreadsheet.
> 
> ...



Yes, the spreadsheet as it exists is valuable.  It should be a sticky.

My desire is for us to collectively assemble points, MR option and MF given to each resort/season.  This could be a separate effort and separate spreadsheet to also share as part of a Marriott Point System sticky.  I do not know how to assemble this alone, nor would I expect you to go at it alone either.

It is NOT about calculating points skimming for me.  I've read enough overall subjective observational posts on that to understand it.

DanCali - I will send you a PM


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## tombo (Jul 13, 2010)

l2trade said:


> Yes, the spreadsheet as it exists is valuable.  It should be a sticky.



A sticky is a great idea. I second the motion. Do the ayes have it?


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## GregT (Jul 13, 2010)

I would also like to see this spreadsheet as a sticky and think it is useful information to anyone who stumbles across this board and is trying to understand the issue. 

Since this thread has many opinions (and therefore likley isn't appropriate to be part of the sticky), can Post #59 (or at least a subset of the post) be added to the spreadsheet sticky since it is clear and concise?


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## m61376 (Jul 13, 2010)

I think the issues underscored in the posts above are very important. Marriott maintains that legacy owners are just being charged a 10% premium when using points to reserve at their home resort, but that its silly to book using points at one's home resort- and to simply use weeks in that case and then the skim doesn't matter.

The real issue is that it not only impacts what you can book at your own resort, but gives you less value to book anywhere else.


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## eileenpat (Jul 13, 2010)

*Question*

I am not sure this belongs here but I do not know where else to post it.  Does anyone know if there is a Yahoo or other Internet forum for owners at Ocean Watch?.  I know of the Ocean Pointe group, but am also interested in the a forum just for Ocean Watch.  I feel that as an owner in both places, the OW assigned points are really extremely low. I would be interested in other own opinions.
Thanks.


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## DanCali (Jul 13, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I think the issues underscored in the posts above are very important. Marriott maintains that legacy owners are just being charged a 10% premium when using points to reserve at their home resort, but that its silly to book using points at one's home resort- and to simply use weeks in that case and then the skim doesn't matter.
> 
> *The real issue is that it not only impacts what you can book at your own resort, but gives you less value to book anywhere else.*



That's exactly right. Marriott's rebuttal that keeps coming up about still being able to book your home resort as a week is just a way to throw sand in our eyes and distract from the truth. But their argument is irrelevant because if we each got 1000 points and could still book our home resort we'd be screaming bloody murder. The fact that we got 7%-13% less than the average of the season makes it less egregious than getting a flat 1000 points, but it doesn't change the fact that it's less than the trading power representative of the season...


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## m61376 (Jul 13, 2010)

DanCali said:


> That's exactly right. Marriott's rebuttal that keeps coming up about still being able to book your home resort as a week is just a way to throw sand in our eyes and distract from the truth. But their argument is irrelevant because if we each got 1000 points and could still book our home resort we'd be screaming bloody murder. The fact that we got 7%-13% less than the average of the season makes it less egregious than getting a flat 1000 points, but it doesn't change the fact that it's less than the trading power representative of the season...



But don't forget many owners did not even get enough points to book any week in their owned season.

I don't think it is meant to be "throwing sand in our eyes" but as a way for them to justify that you are not losing anything if you want to use what you bought- a week in your own resort, in the season you bought. From their vantage point, they are charging a premium for any flexibility- yet touting it as a very user friendly program because of the flexibility and the single fee for all your trades.

The unfortunate thing is that most people will see the razzle dazzle of the flexibility, and not having to pay for lock offs, changes of reservations or trades, or even II membership- so it all looks like a bargain, esp. for multi week owners or even single weeks owners who lock off. 

Let's face it- most people aren't neurotic like we are, and don't dissect the ins and out of the program. They take it for face value, and on the surface it looks really glossy. The salespeople will talk about the ability to book where you want, when you want and how long you want, and many people will take out their charge cards. 

That's why I am guessing they may meet their 20% goal, but when the dust settles I think there will be many club members- and I am thinking perhaps a majority of them- who later recognize that all that glitters isn't gold, and will continue using and trading in weeks even though they joined the program. Let's face it- if they make one lock-off a year and one trade, along with the II fee they're more than covered. Developer week owners get almost a wash if they can utilize that 800 points.


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## DanCali (Jul 14, 2010)

m61376 said:


> ...I think there will be many club members- and I am thinking perhaps a majority of them- who later recognize that all that glitters isn't gold, and will continue using and trading in weeks even though they joined the program.



I'd rather buy this than pay Marriott $2K just to keep using weeks as weeks... but that's just me. It's also an easier sell to the DW


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## ocdb8r (Jul 14, 2010)

m61376 said:


> The unfortunate thing is that most people will see the razzle dazzle of the flexibility, and not having to pay for lock offs, changes of reservations or trades, or even II membership- so it all looks like a bargain, esp. for multi week owners or even single weeks owners who lock off.
> 
> Let's face it- most people aren't neurotic like we are, and don't dissect the ins and out of the program. They take it for face value, and on the surface it looks really glossy. The salespeople will talk about the ability to book where you want, when you want and how long you want, and many people will take out their charge cards.
> 
> That's why I am guessing they may meet their 20% goal, but when the dust settles I think there will be many club members- and I am thinking perhaps a majority of them- who later recognize that all that glitters isn't gold, and will continue using and trading in weeks even though they joined the program. Let's face it- if they make one lock-off a year and one trade, along with the II fee they're more than covered. Developer week owners get almost a wash if they can utilize that 800 points.



To be honest, even as a single week owner, if I lock-off and trade at least one half of my unit each year I come out ahead....and if I trade both halvesI can really save some $$.  For that reason I am inclined to join as it won't take too long to recoup the cost and I'm "in" for safety's sake.  The only thing keeping me on the fence is pure principle!   However, to be honest, I don't think it's a bad thing if Marriott converts their 20% target if people join and then don't choose to convert to points.  Maybe they'll realize things have to be adjusted to get people to actually participate in the points program (as opposed to just joining for the other benefits).


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## wegottago (Jul 19, 2010)

*skimming and buying points to go to a resort*

DanCali:   I own one week.  Are you saying that if I don't have enough points to go to a resort which requires more points than I was allocated for my unit, I then have to buy these points (at .50 per point...your value)?   If so, this could work out to be hundreds of dollars (or thousands)?

If so, then this is alot of extra money I wouldn't want to pay after paying about $25,000 for my 2-bedroom lock-off.  

Am I still paying my $1200 annual maintenance fee in the points program? 

Thank you.


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## DanCali (Jul 19, 2010)

wegottago said:


> DanCali:   I own one week.  Are you saying that if I don't have enough points to go to a resort which requires more points than I was allocated for my unit, I then have to buy these points (at .50 per point...your value)?   If so, this could work out to be hundreds of dollars (or thousands)?
> 
> If so, then this is alot of extra money I wouldn't want to pay after paying about $25,000 for my 2-bedroom lock-off.
> 
> ...



If you enrolled into points and wanted to use points to book your stay at a different resort (with the convenience of immediate confirmation based on availability in the points exchange) and didn't have enough points, then you can make up the difference by renting points from someone else (or possibly from Marriott if they enter that business). Whether the rate will be $0.50, or less, or more that remains to be seen. 

Another option would be to borrow points from next year to use this year. This may involve vacationing once every 2 years to go to where you want to go - not everyone likes this option.

Lastly, you do still have the option to use Interval, just like in the past. You can do this without enrolling in points, just like you'd do today, or you can also use Interval while enrolled in points, from a different (corporate) II account. We do not know yet how different the corporate II account will be from what we know today. 

Using interval involves the "waiting game," but given the recent understanding (yet to be confirmed) that the points system is just another exchange program and we actually may not be able to access trust inventory, the "instant confirmation" you'd expect with points may not be what it's advertised to be anyway.


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## JimIg23 (Jul 19, 2010)

ocdb8r said:


> To be honest, even as a single week owner, if I lock-off and trade at least one half of my unit each year I come out ahead....and if I trade both halvesI can really save some $$.  For that reason I am inclined to join as it won't take too long to recoup the cost and I'm "in" for safety's sake.  The only thing keeping me on the fence is pure principle!   However, to be honest, I don't think it's a bad thing if Marriott converts their 20% target if people join and then don't choose to convert to points.  Maybe they'll realize things have to be adjusted to get people to actually participate in the points program (as opposed to just joining for the other benefits).



To add that to, over time I think they will need exchange owners to deposit or trust members may suffer (lack of varied inventory) unless they undertake a massive ROFR and add inventoory to the trust that way, but I am not convinced they would do that because it increases their MF burden and will cause their trust members to increase their MFs.  If trust members start complaining, I see them doing something to get exhcange owners to deposit.  Exchange members add a great deal to their program, a variety of weeks without the MF burden.


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## jen (Jul 19, 2010)

*Cost for points?*

I spoke with Marriott about this new program.  We own a summer week on HH at Harbour Point which would be worth 1150 points in the new system.  To trade points for a summer week back into this resort would be 1125 points so we would not be getting skimmed.  However, since we usually were able to trade with II for a beach property on HH in the summer we would need 2675 points to stay at the Monarch or 2900 points to stay at Grand Vista in Orlando.  Marriott quoted $16,500 for buying an additional 1750 points!  Does this sound right or did I hear them wrong?!  I could buy a resale week at Monarch for less!  Also, Hilton Grand Vacation Points which would trade into a nice Orlando location is only $11,500 for a premium week.

Can you buy points from resale or only direct from Marriott?  Is the price of these points negotiable?

thanks,


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## windje2000 (Jul 19, 2010)

jen said:


> I spoke with Marriott about this new program.  We own a summer week on HH at Harbour Point which would be worth 1150 points in the new system.  To trade points for a summer week back into this resort would be 1125 points so we would not be getting skimmed.  However, since we usually were able to trade with II for a beach property on HH in the summer we would need 2675 points to stay at the Monarch or 2900 points to stay at Grand Vista in Orlando.  Marriott quoted $16,500 for buying an additional 1750 points!  Does this sound right or did I hear them wrong?!  I could buy a resale week at Monarch for less!  Also, Hilton Grand Vacation Points which would trade into a nice Orlando location is only $11,500 for a premium week.
> 
> Can you buy points from resale or only direct from Marriott?  Is the price of these points negotiable?
> 
> thanks,



jen - there's more to it than just buying points as its not necessarily true that you can combine your deeded interest 1150 points plus any purchased points.

Read the board - there's lots to learn before you jump in.

I believe the moderator is preparing a summary of the points program as a sticky - look for it.


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## DanCali (Jul 20, 2010)

jen said:


> I spoke with Marriott about this new program.  We own a summer week on HH at Harbour Point which would be worth 1150 points in the new system.  To trade points for a summer week back into this resort would be 1125 points so we would not be getting skimmed.  However, since we usually were able to trade with II for a beach property on HH in the summer we would need 2675 points to stay at the Monarch or 2900 points to stay at Grand Vista in Orlando.  Marriott quoted $16,500 for buying an additional 1750 points!  Does this sound right or did I hear them wrong?!  I could buy a resale week at Monarch for less!  Also, Hilton Grand Vacation Points which would trade into a nice Orlando location is only $11,500 for a premium week.
> 
> Can you buy points from resale or only direct from Marriott?  Is the price of these points negotiable?
> 
> thanks,



jen - your post attracted my attention quite a bit since I have been saying that ALL owners at ALL resorts in ALL seasons are subjet to skim so if you are correct I may have had to revise that opinion (before I got accused of "wild unsubstantiated allegations...").

But alas...While I did not compute the average of your season for your resort in the spreadsheet in post #1 due to some missing data, it appears to me that you are actually getting skimmed just like the rest of us. It's 1225 points to trade into all summer weeks at your resort (not 1125). Since you got 1150 that's a 6.1 skim relative to the average of your season which I assume is 1225.

I could be wrong about this if there are weeks in your season outside the late May to late August range. I do not have the season chart for your resort so can you please specify the exact weeks in your season? Or it sounds you may actually own a fixed summer week, in which case I don't need to check anything - your skim is as I stated above.


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## jen (Jul 20, 2010)

*cost for points*

Hi,

Yes I believe you are right we own the week 31 in July so we are getting skimmed too.  However, my main point or concern was more about how much extra $$$ it would take to buy enough points to be able to stay at the places we have been getting in trades for the last 10+ years such as Grand Ocean, Monarch and Grand Vista.  Marriott said we could trade in our fixed week for 1150 points plus buy additional points to get up to 2900 points to stay at Monarch or Grand Vista in summer season.  If I heard the rep right it would cost 16,500 to buy those additional points which seems very high if you add in the original cost of our Harbour Point week.  Is anyone getting quotes on how much points cost?  

thanks


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## DanCali (Jul 20, 2010)

jen said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes I believe you are right we own the week 31 in July so we are getting skimmed too.  However, my main point or concern was more about how much extra $$$ it would take to buy enough points to be able to stay at the places we have been getting in trades for the last 10+ years such as Grand Ocean, Monarch and Grand Vista.  Marriott said we could trade in our fixed week for 1150 points plus buy additional points to get up to 2900 points to stay at Monarch or Grand Vista in summer season.  If I heard the rep right it would cost 16,500 to buy those additional points which seems very high if you add in the original cost of our Harbour Point week.  Is anyone getting quotes on how much points cost?
> 
> thanks




The current price is about $9.4 point so if you are looking to add 1750 points that is right around $16.5K... it would also add $700 in MFs annually, which probably nearly doubles your annual cost.

In my opinion buying points from Marriott is ridiculously expensive. Even if you have the 2900 points, you'd probably find you can rent from other owners in the places you want to go to for less than your annual cost. Check the TUG Marketplace or RedWeek.com to get an idea.

I would keep looking for my exchanges in II if I were you. I highly doubt the decline in II inventory will be as dramatic as Marriott wants you to believe. You have a strong summer week in a desirable area - you should be fine. Worst case is that you start adding non-Marriott resorts to your trade requests. There is a whole world out there!


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## jen (Jul 20, 2010)

*Cost of Points!*

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the feedback and I totally agree with you right now points are overpriced by Marriott especially since my friend bought Hilton GVC points for $11,500 for a premium week in Orlando at a place right next to the Grand Vista.  He did buy at a resale place not direct from Hilton but Hilton doesn't penalize him for buying resale.  To upgrade my Marriott to points to get a week at Grand Vista I would be paying ~$15,000 plus my original cost of ~$7,000 plus $1,500 one-time buy in fee for a total of $23,500 compared to what he paid at $11,500 which is about double.

If at some point Marriott starting allowing points to be sold at resale with no penalty (do they allow this now?) or if they brought their price down to compete with Hilton then I'd be more interested in converting.

thanks,
Steve


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## DanCali (Jul 20, 2010)

jen said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback and I totally agree with you right now points are overpriced by Marriott especially since my friend bought Hilton GVC points for $11,500 for a premium week in Orlando at a place right next to the Grand Vista.  He did buy at a resale place not direct from Hilton but Hilton doesn't penalize him for buying resale.  To upgrade my Marriott to points to get a week at Grand Vista I would be paying ~$15,000 plus my original cost of ~$7,000 plus $1,500 one-time buy in fee for a total of $23,500 compared to what he paid at $11,500 which is about double.



And your friend would probably also have lower maintenace fees than you would if you added $700 a year in MFs for the 1750 points...



jen said:


> If at some point Marriott starting allowing points to be sold at resale with no penalty (do they allow this now?) or if they brought their price down to compete with Hilton then I'd be more interested in converting.



There are no resale Marriott points yet, and it will probably be a while before a reasonable market for that develops.


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## m61376 (Jul 21, 2010)

DanCali said:


> There are no resale Marriott points yet, and it will probably be a while before a reasonable market for that develops.



Furthermore, as of now unless you buy points from Marriott or an approved broker you won't be able to enroll in the program; if I am not mistaken, use of those points would be limited to 60 days or less.

Of course that, like everything else, is subject to change.

As a matter of fact, that's the first thing I'd ask a salesperson- what happens if I want or need to sell?


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## jen (Jul 21, 2010)

*Cost of points*

Interesting the Marriott sales rep quoting me prices on points did not even mention that my maint. fee would go up.  Bottom line is right now the points system is not worth it for many owners and Marriott needs to change the program to be simpler and cheaper.  II is a much better option for now.


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## dmharris (Sep 26, 2010)

A few questions after reading these threads:

Do new owners who buy points have to pay maintenance fees?

If many of the resorts have their weeks sold out as deeded weeks, how is there any inventory?  If new buyers come in to buy points and e.g. every deeded owner booked their week at their home resort, would the new buyer have ANY availability at that resort?  

This troubles me that if Marriott is selling more than the deeded, full bought out inventory.  Somehow that almost seems illegal.  

Which of you smart folks can unmuddle my mind?


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## wvacations (Sep 26, 2010)

dmharris said:


> Do new owners who buy points have to pay maintenance fees?



Yes. Right now the MF's are $0.40 per point. These change as Marriott sees fit. No ELECTED Board Of Directors voting on expenses.




dmharris said:


> If many of the resorts have their weeks sold out as deeded weeks, how is there any inventory?  If new buyers come in to buy points and e.g. every deeded owner booked their week at their home resort, would the new buyer have ANY availability at that resort?



No. DC gets inventory form, unsold weeks, weeks converted to MR  points, weeks converted to DC points and weeks deposited to II. In your scenario there would be no availability to point owners. But, if that happens (everyone booked and used their week), there would not have been availability under the old system either for exchangers. DC is just another (expensive) exchanging option.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 26, 2010)

wvacations said:


> Yes. Right now the MF's are $0.40 per point. These change as Marriott sees fit. No ELECTED Board Of Directors voting on expenses.



Actually I thin there may be an elected BOD as the years go by. I read something about a proxy for trust owners.

Also the MF aren't just set by the trustees. They are a calculation of the MF at all the weeks in the trust divided by the total number of points. What would be interesting to know is does Marriott have their normal 10-15% fee added in to the trust MF as the trust is also paying that 10-15% for each week it owns. They could be double dipping,


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