# Delta making status harder/more costly to achieve



## dougp26364 (Jan 17, 2013)

No big surprise that it's Delta that came up with a miles flown + dollars spent equation for achieving status. Talk about trying to run your best customers off to other airlines. 

http://consumerist.com/2013/01/17/d...-elite-status-will-make-it-harder-to-achieve/

http://www.delta.com/content/www/en...html?MkCpgn=EMTNUPAA002771011513151455-A01B-D


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## Poobah (Jan 17, 2013)

*Delta Miles plus $$$$*

This was bound to happen. It is not only the dollars, but the FF miles awarded depends on the price of the ticket.

I just booked DW a ticket to SFO. Delta wanted 40K Sky Pesos,  Visa FlexPerks was 30K.

I just fail to understand why Delta thinks this policy will be viewed a positive for its flyers. If you are travelling on business a lot and the company or contract is footing the bill, it is not a biggy. For the leisure traveler, however, not the case.

Clearly this is move to get casual travelers to opt for higher fares to get to the $$$ threshold for the Medallion status. Not sure this was good move.

Cheers,

Paul


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## Ken555 (Jan 17, 2013)

I think this is a good thing, and I don't even earn Delta miles on their flights (I'm now collecting Alaska for their program, since flights on DL and AA count toward it). Besides, at least they give a reasonable way to avoid this $ requirement. Note that the elite programs weren't ever intended (to the best of my knowledge) for the casual flyer; they were always designed for business travelers. And if there aren't upgrades available for their prime revenue source, then a change was inevitable.



> The*MQDs requirement will be waived if you make at least $25,000 in Eligible Purchases in the qualification year with your Delta SkyMiles Credit Card from American Express


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## bogey21 (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh for the good old days.  When DFW was a Delta hub I accumulated over 3 million miles on Delta and they treated me like God.  They would even take me out to lunch once or twice a year.  But those days are history.

George


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## Jimster (Jan 17, 2013)

*delta*

Oh but according to a recent post they were the best domestic airline- excluding their ff  program. (which is of course ridiculous).  All the airlines have been considering a revenue based ff program for years.  I knew Delta would be the first to jump into it first- they were first in devaluating their sky peso and first in charging baggage fees and first in auctioning fees for bumps.  Put another way they are not consumer friendly.  Above it was mentioned that the changes hurt the casual traveler but not the business traveler.  Thats not true.  These changes hurt the business traveler too.  This 'greed is good' attitude as seen in Wall Street with Gordon Gecko totally turns me off.  i refuse to fly Delta for precisely that reason.  I think their product is probably very good but their attitude toward ffers sucks.


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## Kagehitokiri2 (Jan 18, 2013)

by the same token, big spenders get best treatment by using jet card to book commercial travel


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jan 18, 2013)

Jimster said:


> Oh but according to a recent post they were the best domestic airline- excluding their ff  program. (which is of course ridiculous).  All the airlines have been considering a revenue based ff program for years.  I knew Delta would be the first to jump into it first- they were first in devaluating their sky peso and first in charging baggage fees and first in auctioning fees for bumps.  Put another way they are not consumer friendly.  Above it was mentioned that the changes hurt the casual traveler but not the business traveler.  Thats not true.  These changes hurt the business traveler too.  This 'greed is good' attitude as seen in Wall Street with Gordon Gecko totally turns me off.  i refuse to fly Delta for precisely that reason.  I think their product is probably very good but their attitude toward ffers sucks.


I think you're taking an unnecessarily pejorative viewpoint here.

I think this has a pretty straightforward explanation.

There are a number of people who fly frequently and who have a choice of airlines.  The goal of frequent flyer programs is to get those flyers to exercise preference in booking on that airline, even if the fares are more expensive. Part of the attraction in doing so is being able to get certain benefits, particularly the free upgrades when space is available and the ability to get the best seats in coach (bulkhead and exit row).

But as the ranks of ff members gets large, the frequency of getting those benefits goes down.  Which means that the loyalty element diminishes at the same time.

Delta is doing this plainly and simply to thin the ranks of elite FFs.  They fully recognize that this is going to drive away some of their ffs who are marginal qualifiers for the program.  They are betting that they will more than make that up by getting greater loyalty from flyers who easily make the base level but don't make it gold.  Those are the flyers who will benefit from this program.

I don't think this is a case of greed at all.  This is a case of trying to tailor their program to meet a specific type of flyer. Those who don't like the program will take their business elsewhere.  Those who meet the requirements will find Delta even more attractive.

*****

For myself, I would fit exactly the profile that Delta has set up for the silver level.  I fly enough miles to qualify for that level, and I spend enough money on tickets to fit that criteria. If I were a Delta FF I would be extremely pleased with this change, because I would now be competing with fewer other flyers to get upgrades and favorable seat assignments.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 18, 2013)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I think you're taking an unnecessarily pejorative viewpoint here.
> 
> I think this has a pretty straightforward explanation.
> 
> ...




Well, if the issue is treating their "best" FF's better than the average FF, don't they already assign upgrades based on status? It's been several years back when I was flying with some frequency and had minimal status on United and Frontier. The problem I had with getting upgrades was I was at the bottom of the list. Even those within my tier were assigned upgrades based upon miles flown within that tier (ie: one has 25,000 miles but another has 40,000 miles. The one upgrade available went to the 40,000 mile flyer).

It can also be done with other benefits by only offering those benefits to the very highest level of FF. Thereby thining out the lounges et..... This could be done without the need to revenue based status.

I do believe there is a greed issue involved. Lounges, priority boarding, free luggage, priority seating offers et.....are crowded becasue of credit card holders which, of course, is s revenue stream for the airlines. Those offers have crowded the field more so than to many people flying. 

IMO, Delta is only hurting their best customers while leaving intact all the benefits enjoyed by CC holders, who may not fly but a couple of times each year. That's fine by me because, as a relatively low level flyer, I'm still enjoying those benefits. If I happen to become a low tier FF again (mile flown vs CC owned), Delta won't be first on my list. All their benefits will still be crowded but I could be locked out of the few benefits miles flown would provide.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jan 18, 2013)

dougp26364 said:


> Well, if the issue is treating their "best" FF's better than the average FF, don't they already assign upgrades based on status? It's been several years back when I was flying with some frequency and had minimal status on United and Frontier. The problem I had with getting upgrades was I was at the bottom of the list. Even those within my tier were assigned upgrades based upon miles flown within that tier (ie: one has 25,000 miles but another has 40,000 miles. The one upgrade available went to the 40,000 mile flyer).


I can see I didn't explain my point well at all, because you are illustrating exactly the situation I was describing. 

As you note, the people in the that bottom elite tier - I believe that is the "silvers" in Delta's system - don't get a lot of upgrades and other flying benefits because there are too many people in the category for the benefits that do filter down.  That makes flying Delta considerably less attractive for people who fly frequently, but not enough to get beyond the basic tier status.  That means less loyalty.

But that's a pretty large group of people, and many of them are business travelers who overall pay higher fares than do people who travel for personal reasons. And those high revenue business flyers are ones that Delta wants to keep.

So what they are doing is thinning the ranks of the frequent flyer program, particularly at the lowest qualifying level, and preferentially eliminating the flyers who buy the cheapest tickets.  My guess is that they are hoping that will increase the number of upgrade and seating benefits available to the remaining lowest tier flyers (i.e, the people in the class yield more $/mile flown), and thus generate greater loyalty among that group of higher revenue flyers.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 18, 2013)

Then much like Vegas when they started pushing out the nickel gamblers, I think they'll find those low level FF's contributed more than they initially thought. Everyone tries to attract the whales but there are only so many big fish in the pond, whereas the little fish abound. 

Delta's correct if they think they're eliminating the little fish. I left them long ago. This is no reason for me to consider them if I ever go back to flying 35,000 to 50,000 miles per year.


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## Carolinian (Jan 18, 2013)

Many customers are mixed business and leisure travellers.  Our business travel tends to be in higher fare buckets but for leisure travel we seek the best price.  This policy hits the mixed fare traveller right between the eyes.

The last time DL tried something like this, under Rob Borden, there was a massive pushback (see www.saveskymiles.com ) and DL ended up firing Borden and reversing his policies after two years.  I bailed out of DL because of these policies and comped my elite status over to NW.  My policy then was that any airline that screwed me on my leisure travel was NOT going to get my business travel either.  DL apparently has a massive departure of people like me - the mixed fare traveller - and that is why Borden got the pink slip and his program got the ax (I always wondered if he was related to Lizzy Borden!).  My employer has offices around the world, in about 70 countries and has a lot of international flying, usually in higher fare buckets.  I think most of the DL flyers among us bailed out around the time I did.  I know that all the DL flyers in my division did, most of them moving to UA.

I am very happy NOT to be a DL customer!  And they keep giving me reasons to rejoice that I am not!




Poobah said:


> This was bound to happen. It is not only the dollars, but the FF miles awarded depends on the price of the ticket.
> 
> I just booked DW a ticket to SFO. Delta wanted 40K Sky Pesos,  Visa FlexPerks was 30K.
> 
> ...


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jan 18, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> Many customers are mixed business and leisure travellers.  Our business travel tends to be in higher fare buckets but for leisure travel we seek the best price.  This policy hits the mixed fare traveller right between the eyes.



The hit is inversely proportional to the overall revenue generated per mile flown by a particular customer.  The hardest hit will be those travelers (primarily leisure travelers) who only travel off-peak and off-season, taking full advantage of fare sales and other discount offerings. As a customer segment, that is probably a group with little inherent loyalty to Delta anyway - the vast bulk of that segment simply books the lowest fare possible and will often arrange their travel schedule so as to obtain the lowest fare regardless of airline.

If that reasoning is on target, Delta isn't losing much by trimming those flyers from elite status.  Those people have been flying Delta only when Delta offered the lowest fare, and those people will continue to fly Delta when Delta offers the lowest fare.


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## Ken555 (Jan 18, 2013)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> The hit is inversely proportional to the overall revenue generated per mile flown by a particular customer.  The hardest hit will be those travelers (primarily leisure travelers) who only travel off-peak and off-season, taking full advantage of fare sales and other discount offerings. As a customer segment, that is probably a group with little inherent loyalty to Delta anyway - the vast bulk of that segment simply books the lowest fare possible and will often arrange their travel schedule so as to obtain the lowest fare regardless of airline.
> 
> If that reasoning is on target, Delta isn't losing much by trimming those flyers from elite status.  Those people have been flying Delta only when Delta offered the lowest fare, and those people will continue to fly Delta when Delta offers the lowest fare.



Exactly! Well put.


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## Jimster (Jan 18, 2013)

*airlines*

Lets be clear here.  EVERY airline has considered the revenue based ff program.  It was no surprise that someone started it.  It was also not surprising that it was Delta.  The other airlines have rejected the idea in part because it was such an unpopular system.  I think most airlines felt it would result in a mass exodus of all but the very elite flyers (meaning those flyers who book using some large corporations big bucks).

Delta had no such inhibitions dismissing the unpopularity and the effect on passengers because they hoped to reap a finacial advantage.  We have seen that time and time again.  As i said in my original post, they are the first major airlines to charge for luggage.   They devalued their skymiles for the same reason.  The trend is simple money at any cost.


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## Carolinian (Jan 18, 2013)

Business travelers are often not exclusively business travelers.  Many are mixed fare.  DL bled severely last time it tried to do something like this.  Most if not all of my own coworkers who flew DL bailed out at that time, and we have quite a bit of that high value business traffic.  And from DL reversing course, I don't think we were alone in that.

Dividing customers between all leisure and all business is just not accurate.  Many if not most business travelers are actually mixed fare, who are now being screwed by DL, just as in the ROb Borden days.

DL hoped in the Borden scheme that other airlines would go along.  CO did to a point for a while, but then reveresed course.  THe late Beth Shutis of NW was the one who put her foot down and said NO.




T_R_Oglodyte said:


> The hit is inversely proportional to the overall revenue generated per mile flown by a particular customer.  The hardest hit will be those travelers (primarily leisure travelers) who only travel off-peak and off-season, taking full advantage of fare sales and other discount offerings. As a customer segment, that is probably a group with little inherent loyalty to Delta anyway - the vast bulk of that segment simply books the lowest fare possible and will often arrange their travel schedule so as to obtain the lowest fare regardless of airline.
> 
> If that reasoning is on target, Delta isn't losing much by trimming those flyers from elite status.  Those people have been flying Delta only when Delta offered the lowest fare, and those people will continue to fly Delta when Delta offers the lowest fare.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jan 18, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> Business travelers are often not exclusively business travelers.  Many are mixed fare.  DL bled severely last time it tried to do something like this.  Most if not all of my own coworkers who flew DL bailed out at that time, and we have quite a bit of that high value business traffic.  And from DL reversing course, I don't think we were alone in that.



Steve: you are probably one of the most gifted people I have encountered in being able to twist peoples words to create straw men that you can then shoot down. My hat is off to you; it's fascinating to watch a master at work.

****

With plaudits out of the way, let me continue.  

Never did I say that business travelers would not be affected, nor did I say the change would affect all leisure travels. Nor did I ever say travelers are exclusively business or leisure.  I'm not that ignorant. 

What I did say is that the hit will be inversely proportional to the overall revenue generated per mile flown, and that those flyers who only travel off-peak and off season and who arrange their schedules around obtaining the lowest air fare will be the hardest hit.  To whatever degree that sweeps in business travelers those business travelers will be affected. 

Nevertheless there are people out there for whom most (or even all) of their travel is for leisure and who plan their travel around obtaining the lowest possible fares.   Those people book the lowest air fare without no particular care as to which carrier is offering the fare - the extent of consideration extending only to booking with a specific airline where they are accumulating miles if, and only if, the fares are essentially equal.  

Those are the people who will be the hardest hit, and from the standpoint of running an airline, those are of the least concern for building loyalty.


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## Jimster (Jan 18, 2013)

[/QUOTE]]Nevertheless there are people out there for whom most (or even all) of their travel is for leisure and who plan their travel around obtaining the lowest possible fares.   Those people book the lowest air fare without no particular care as to which carrier is offering the fare - the extent of consideration extending only to booking with a specific airline where they are accumulating miles if, and only if, the fares are essentially equal.  

Those are the people who will be the hardest hit, and from the standpoint of running an airline, those are of the least concern for building loyalty.[/QUOTE]


Quite frankly who cares about people who look to book the cheapest fare from whatever airline?.  FF programs are loyalty programs and if they are not loyal, who cares?   Furthermore, that kind of person seldom gets status anyway.  25k which is generally the lowest status level is difficult to obtain unless you are flying to Australia or the Far East or some other distant destination.  Most of the airlines have gutted this kind of silver status anyway.  Low level status seldom gets upgrades and not much of a mileage bonus.   It usually takes 50k to get any real benefits and that means at least two big international trips at the least.
The people who will be hurt will be the savy flyer who knows what it takes to get status.  The person that will do a mileage run if necessary to keep the status.  This includes both business and leisure travelers and their numbers are significant.  Delta just wants to cherry pick and get the high priced business traveler while expending the least amount of money because they limit the numbers.  Then they call it a ff program.  It is just like skymiles-WOW i have 30k miles but you are lucky if you can find a flight for that amount but it seems like you are really doing a good job of collecting miles.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jan 18, 2013)

changed my mind.  No point in repeating myself.


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## x3 skier (Jan 18, 2013)

*Safe, I think*

Best I can tell, this is not a change that will affect me at all.

I usually make Gold by including a couple of special sale Business Claas fares to Europe along with my cheap domestic flights. Since the "cheap" Business class fares range around $2000 or so each, it almost covers the MQD.  At least they didn't decide to make the MQM dependent of fare paid which was the subject of much comment on Flyertalk and would have been much worse IMHO. OTOH, I haven't read all the fine print. 

I am not surprised this was a Steath rollout. Wonder if I will get an email In a month or two notifying me of the "fabulous enhancement" of Sky Miles.

Cheers


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## Carolinian (Jan 18, 2013)

But when an airline crafts a program that throws the baby (mixed fare traveller) out with the bathwater (exclusively leisure traveller), then that is going to kick the airline in the gut.  DL has already done this once, and got hurt badly enough by the pushback from enough high value passengers that they reversed course and fired the guy who crafted the program.

There are other groups of passengers that this is going to hurt.  Travel on partner airlines counts for the milage requirement  but for not the dollar requirement.  This is going to hurt those who travel internatioinally, whether for business or leisure, and give them a big incentive to switch to other airlines.  Having to fly on a DL ticket may limit options and international travellers are not going to like that all at.

My co-workers who dropped DL the last time they pulled a move like this (some of our offices like Kiev were about all DL flyers until then, but moved to UA as a result) flew a majority of their travel for business and a minority for leisure, but when DL played games with their leisure travel, they changed their aiirline preference with our corporate travel office for their business travel, too.  I was one of the few who bailed to NW.  Most bailed to UA.  All of this was discussed on our corporate intranet, so the word got out on DL and the crap they were pulling.  From what the director of our travel office told me, almost none of our staff flies DL for business any more.  DL did it to themselves.




T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Steve: you are probably one of the most gifted people I have encountered in being able to twist peoples words to create straw men that you can then shoot down. My hat is off to you; it's fascinating to watch a master at work.
> 
> ****
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Jan 18, 2013)

AA is taking advantage of this ''enhancement'' at DL to offer DL's best customers - the Diamond Medallions - a free comp to AA ExPlat.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles/1428867-aa-matching-dm-exp.html

AA normally does not do comps, but requires a ''challenge'' which you have to pay for the privelege of doing and then fly a certain number of AA miles depending on the level of the challenge within a set period.  They have waived the challenge to do direct comps to snatch Diamond Medallions who are upset by DL's latest anti-customer ploy.  I am sure there are mixed fare Diamond Medallions who are seething at DL's move.

It is great to see AA quick on its feet to ride to the rescue.  Hooray!

Lower medallion levels will still have to do a challenge in the usual way.


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## buzglyd (Jan 18, 2013)

If everyone is Elite, no one is Elite.


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## Carolinian (Jan 18, 2013)

The problem at DL is giving EQM's for things like credit card usage, not people earning EQM's by flying, and the credit card back door is also present with the new EQD.  If they would restrict EQM to actual flying, that would be a better way to solve the problem of elite inflation.

Another ''enhancement'' that DL just came out with is changing the earning rates on tickets on airline partners, many fare classes going below 100% now, even on some full fare coach tickets!  Worse, yet, they are dishonestly applying those rates to tickets that people have already purchased expecting to get full miles.  DL, as usual, is a pack of dishonest slugs.

One World is moving the other direction, with full miles now being earned for all BA flights on AA.  They used to give less than 100% on lower fare classes.

I saw an online poll, which I now cannot find, that had sentiment about 2 to 1 against DL's new program.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Jan 18, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> But when an airline crafts a program that throws the baby (mixed fare traveller) out with the bathwater (exclusively leisure traveller), then that is going to kick the airline in the gut.  DL has already done this once, and got hurt badly enough by the pushback from enough high value passengers that they reversed course and fired the guy who crafted the program.
> 
> There are other groups of passengers that this is going to hurt.  Travel on partner airlines counts for the milage requirement  but for not the dollar requirement.  This is going to hurt those who travel internatioinally, whether for business or leisure, and give them a big incentive to switch to other airlines.  Having to fly on a DL ticket may limit options and international travellers are not going to like that all at.
> 
> My co-workers who dropped DL the last time they pulled a move like this (some of our offices like Kiev were about all DL flyers until then, but moved to UA as a result) flew a majority of their travel for business and a minority for leisure, but when DL played games with their leisure travel, they changed their aiirline preference with our corporate travel office for their business travel, too.  I was one of the few who bailed to NW.  Most bailed to UA.  All of this was discussed on our corporate intranet, so the word got out on DL and the crap they were pulling.  From what the director of our travel office told me, almost none of our staff flies DL for business any more.  DL did it to themselves.


I love this. It's the free market in action.

Delta is putting their money and reputation behind their actions.  No matter the whining and blatherings on fora around the world, the real test is in the marketplace and in how their competitors and their customers respond. If Delta is right, they reap the rewards. If Delta is wrong, they pay the price.  The people with skin in the game are the people who have invested their money with Delta management.

It's the American Way.  What's not to love about that?


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## Carolinian (Jan 18, 2013)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> I love this. It's the free market in action.
> 
> Delta is putting their money and reputation behind their actions.  No matter the whining and blatherings on fora around the world, the real test is in the marketplace and in how their competitors and their customers respond. If Delta is right, they reap the rewards. If Delta is wrong, they pay the price.  The people with skin in the game are the people who have invested their money with Delta management.
> 
> It's the American Way.  What's not to love about that?



They tried something similar in the past, and got badly beat up for it.  The customers whipped their ass with www.saveskymiles.com and they had to stop the bleeding of business passengers by reversing the program.  Many of the customers they lost, like my coworkers who used to fly DL on biz, they did not get back.

The pushback from customers that time included billboards near key airports denouncing DL's attack on customers, boarding cards explaining how DL was screwing them handed out at airports by volunteers, and even quarter page ads in USA Today.  Two can play the game.  You can call that whining and blather if you like but it soundly beat DL's ass on a similar move a few years ago.

Those who have foolishly given their loyalty to DL also have skin in the game.  They should have seen the handwriting on the fall long before this.

It is good to see other airlines like AA make their own competitive moves to eat DL's lunch over this ''enhancement'' by working to entice away their best customers.  Three cheers for AA!


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## x3 skier (Jan 19, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> One World is moving the other direction, with full miles now being earned for all BA flights on AA.



Small comfort for paying the absurd trans Atlantic BA surcharges. 

Cheers


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## x3 skier (Jan 19, 2013)

Since this "enhancement" really doesn't effectively happen for two years, I will wait and see what actually happens. I am sure the other airlines have similar plans ready and may or may not implement them or some counter attack when the dust settles. 

As far as AA matching Delta staus, doesn't that devalue AA's program by inflating the ranks of high status travelers competing for upgrades?

Not to mention the real possibility of AA being taken over by Useless Air. 

Free Enterprise is great. If you don't like the program, don't use it. If it then turns out to be a bad deal for Delta, they suffer. From what I read, the high status Delta people seem OK with it and since the low status people don't get much anyway, it is the mid range status people that may pay a penalty. If their defections hurt the bottom line, Delta made a bad decision. 

Cheers


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## Carolinian (Jan 19, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> Small comfort for paying the absurd trans Atlantic BA surcharges.
> 
> Cheers



I totally agree with you as to BURNING miles, but what I am talking about is in EARNING miles.  I have found in the last year or two that if you buy the ticket far enough in advance, BA's fares are often competitive with LCC's intra-Europe, all-in.  With BA, I get lounge access, preferred seats, usually exit row, free luggage, and other elite perks.  I also earn full miles.  Indeed on a trip earlier this month, BA was about half what the LCC on the same route wanted for a flight on the same day.

Al BAl fares, even these cheap sale fares get full EQM's, although only half EQP's but their EQP ratio is the same as if I was flying AA.  With AA, you can qualify either on EQM's or on EQP's.  This year, I requalified on both, but you only have to requalify on one.

If you look at DL's new partner chart, they have severely whacked many partners on earning, even on some full fare tickets!


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## Carolinian (Jan 19, 2013)

It is not so much level of status but how they get there.  If they are certain they will have enough biz travel to get them over without leisure travel, they may consider this a plus.  But if part of their qualification comes from leisure travel, as in the case of the many mixed fare travellers, it is a huge negative.  Or if they travel internationally and use partner carriers, it is also a huge negative.  If they depend on DL's rollover it is also a huge negative, as the MQD's do NOT rollover, and in the second year when one is counting on rollover miles, they will have a big deficit of dollars to make up.  This effectively neuters DL's rollover feature, which was one of its few pluses.




x3 skier said:


> Since this "enhancement" really doesn't effectively happen for two years, I will wait and see what actually happens. I am sure the other airlines have similar plans ready and may or may not implement them or some counter attack when the dust settles.
> 
> As far as AA matching Delta staus, doesn't that devalue AA's program by inflating the ranks of high status travelers competing for upgrades?
> 
> ...


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## x3 skier (Jan 19, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> If they depend on DL's rollover it is also a huge negative, as the MQD's do NOT rollover, and in the second year when one is counting on rollover miles, they will have a big deficit of dollars to make up.  This effectively neuters DL's rollover feature, which was one of its few pluses.



Most savvy travelers don't have many to rollover anyway. Once you make a level you want, if you have more travel, just switch airlines to try for staus on another airline unless someone else is paying the freight and you have no choice. If somebody else is paying the freight and making the selection of airline, why complain since you have no choice anyway.

$5000 in spending on airline tickets to match the 50000 MQM requirement, for example, if you can get them one way or another isn't a real burden IMHO. For example, two low cost RT TATL Biz class tickets gets you there MQD but only about 20000 MQM so if you have 30000 rollover miles you are set. Even 25 cheapo $200 RT tickets gets you to the $5000 threshold but with only as little as 25000 miles (but you do have 50 segments). Clearly rollover is not "neutered" since the MQD is easier than the MQM. If you never bought another ticket in your rollover year, it might be "neutered" in the sense you will lose status the next year but since that would mean you are not getting any MQM either, you lose either way for the next year so no real penalty by adding MQD requirement. 

BTW, using partner airlines may be less attractive but since Delta is in the business of making money for Delta, not AF, KLM, CS or anybody else, I certainly don't blame Delta if they think it is in their financial interest to try drive traffic off of their partners and onto their own equipment. If it doesn't, they lose. If you would rather fly their partners, use the partner FF program. If the combined business / liesure traveler is stuck with Delta for business, fly Delta for the liesure travel if you want to get status on Delta. If you don't have a choice for the business portion and prefer someone other than Delta, sorry but life isn't always fair. I fail to see a problem here. 

Cheers


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## x3 skier (Jan 19, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> I totally agree with you as to BURNING miles, but what I am talking about is in EARNING miles.  I have found in the last year or two that if you buy the ticket far enough in advance, BA's fares are often competitive with LCC's intra-Europe, all-in.



I was talking about TATL purchased fares. The fact that BA is competitive in Europe if fine if you live there but I don't so I didn't mention it. 

Cheers


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## short (Jan 19, 2013)

*Delta AX waives requirement.*

I don't believe anyone has mentioned that if you have a Delta Ax and spend more than 25k on it per year the dollar value is waived.

I wanted to book my flights on Delta for LAX to Kona this January and the day I wanted was fully booked in First Class for the 3 months prior.  Ended up flying AA on in first on FF miles and was not impressed.

We are flying to HNL today on Mesa(go) only because our friends already were booked on that flight.  Good thing it is only 40 Min.

Almost every Delta flight I have been on for the last year has been full.

First from LAX to MSP which we fly frequently is usually about 1K.  Coach maybe 400k.  Delta is hopeing to encourage flyers to buy directly into First.  There are lots of retiring baby boomers who have tons of money that are used to flying First and will op up. 

If you buy first class outright you do not need to have elite status.

Short


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## durango5000 (Jan 19, 2013)

short said:


> I don't believe anyone has mentioned that if you have a Delta Ax and spend more than 25k on it per year the dollar value is waived.



Right. This should be a non event because if you have elite status with an airline, it is silly to not have its credit card as well. You then rack up hundreds of thousands of miles per year.

Also DL elites living outside the USA are exempt from the revenue requirement. Why? Because DL probably doesn't have credit card offers outside the USA.

Southwest was already there with a revenue based program. I expect UA, US, and once it emerges from bankruptcy, AA to follow.

Basically the airlines are telling the mileage runners: stop using non airline points cards, like Starwood Amex, Chase Sapphire, etc. to redeem points on our airline. 

Non event except for what the airline considers a true parasite: a mileage runner who collects VDB comp all his flights, gets DL diamond for a couple thousand a year, and uses the Capital One Rewards card for all his spend.


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## Ken555 (Jan 19, 2013)

short said:


> I don't believe anyone has mentioned that if you have a Delta Ax and spend more than 25k on it per year the dollar value is waived.



http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1411569&postcount=3


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## Carolinian (Jan 19, 2013)

For many destinations in Europe and Asia, DL does not go all the way, and the last leg has to be on a partner.  Also, partners may have been schedules or fares.  That loss of flexibility for the traveller makes this a stinky system.  Instead of driving business from partners to DL, it is likely to drive customers totally from DL to more customer-friendly airlines like AA, just like it did in the Rob Borden scheme.




x3 skier said:


> Most savvy travelers don't have many to rollover anyway. Once you make a level you want, if you have more travel, just switch airlines to try for staus on another airline unless someone else is paying the freight and you have no choice. If somebody else is paying the freight and making the selection of airline, why complain since you have no choice anyway.
> 
> $5000 in spending on airline tickets to match the 50000 MQM requirement, for example, if you can get them one way or another isn't a real burden IMHO. For example, two low cost RT TATL Biz class tickets gets you there MQD but only about 20000 MQM so if you have 30000 rollover miles you are set. Even 25 cheapo $200 RT tickets gets you to the $5000 threshold but with only as little as 25000 miles (but you do have 50 segments). Clearly rollover is not "neutered" since the MQD is easier than the MQM. If you never bought another ticket in your rollover year, it might be "neutered" in the sense you will lose status the next year but since that would mean you are not getting any MQM either, you lose either way for the next year so no real penalty by adding MQD requirement.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Jan 19, 2013)

Well, no, who they are screwing is the mixed fare customer and there are a lot of those, as they should have learned in the Rob Borden / saveskymiles.com fiasco.

AA has been aggressively courting disillusioned high value customers of first UA and now DL when they have downgraded their ff programs.  That hardly puts them in a position to downgrade their own program.

I have no problem with credit cards earning miles generally, but they should have nothing whatsoever to do with elite status.  Elite status should purely be based on butt in seat (BIS) miles.

As an AA Plat, I do not have and will not get AA's credit card because it comes from CitiBank, a bank I have no intention of ever doing business with again.  I had NW's cc with USBank during the years I was NW gold and it was useful for the extra miles and I would likely get AA's if it was with a bank other than Citi.  I did have the DL Amex, too, when I was DL gold.

If they all change frequent flyer programs to frequent buyer programs, then the logical thing to do may be to fly price and schedule and to heck with loyalty.

For DL, BTW, the card involved is Amex, not Cap One.

I think the true milage runners are few and far between.  The more likely scenario is someone close to a threshhold who does a milage run to put themselves over.  Personally, I have never done a milage run.  There are too many interesting places left to go, that if I need a few more miles, I take a long weekend and spend some time actually seeing a place that I am interested in for a city break or the like, not immediately turn around and come back like the milage runners do.

AA already factors in spend in its elite program in that one can either qualify on EQM's which are pure miles or on EQP, which are points based on fare class, with some cheaper fare classes at less than 100% and others in the higher buckets at over 100%.  This is much easier to use than calculating actual dollars.  This year I requalified both under EQM and under EQP, but it is only necessary to qualify under one.

The outside the US loophole might work for some.  Just set up a foreign address and phone number (the latter you can get from Skype which will ring on your computer whereever you are) and change your SkyPiles account to it.  However's DL's program is so crappy in other ways, it is better to just change programs.




durango5000 said:


> Right. This should be a non event because if you have elite status with an airline, it is silly to not have its credit card as well. You then rack up hundreds of thousands of miles per year.
> 
> Also DL elites living outside the USA are exempt from the revenue requirement. Why? Because DL probably doesn't have credit card offers outside the USA.
> 
> ...


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## Carolinian (Jan 19, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> I was talking about TATL purchased fares. The fact that BA is competitive in Europe if fine if you live there but I don't so I didn't mention it.
> 
> Cheers



Actually, the problem is the award tickets on BA with AA miles.  That is where the YQ kills you.  I avoid that by flying on AA metal on the TATL legs.  You still get hit a bit on the intra-Europe legs, but that is not nearly as bad.  One workaround is to use Air Berlin or Finnair, two AA TATL partners which do not whack you for YQ on award tickets.

Actually, the all-in TATL purchased fares on BA are often not bad.  They still charge YQ, but they adjust the part called ''fare'' downward to be competitive, and I have sometimes seen all-in BA TATL fares the lowest ones out there.


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## Carolinian (Jan 20, 2013)

Since SkyPiles has now gone to the dogs on so many fronts - redeeming miles, mile earning on partners, and now elite qualification, the solution is to switch programs.  For elites, I think UA is still doing a direct comp of status.  UA has downgraded its ff program, but not as severely as DL.  The one that is most customer friendly is AA, and here is the Helpdesk thread on how to do a challenge to move your elite status to AA:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...age-elite-status-challenge-gold-platinum.html


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## x3 skier (Jan 20, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> If they all change frequent flyer programs to frequent buyer programs, then the logical thing to do may be to fly price and schedule and to heck with loyalty.
> 
> *Which is is what is likely to happen so I don't get too worked up about it. *
> 
> ...



I surrender and hereby stipulate Skymiles is not the best FF Progam and may not have ever been. :deadhorse:

Cheers


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## MichaelColey (Jan 20, 2013)

dougp26364 said:


> Talk about trying to run your best customers off to other airlines.


But the whole point is that those people who get status with very low spending AREN'T their best customers.

A few years ago, I got top tier status on American Airlines (plus about 250k redeemable miles) by flying about $2500 worth of flights.  Others do similar things with Delta.  They're just taking a step to make it harder.

Except they left one loophole:



> THE MQDS REQUIREMENT WILL BE WAIVED FOR A MEMBER WHO MAKES AT LEAST $25,000 IN ELIGIBLE PURCHASES IN THE QUALIFICATION YEAR WITH HIS OR HER DELTA SKYMILES CREDIT CARD FROM AMERICAN EXPRESS.


Or did they just make a nod to show who really IS their best customer?


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## Carolinian (Jan 20, 2013)

Adding up dollar cost of tickets is not so straight forward as some things count and others do not.  Also some tickets, like partner tickets count on miles but not dollars.  That latter situation is likely to add further strain to SkyTeam, which is already under some stress.  Hopefully that will encourage some of their airlines to defect to OneWorld.

The real problem is also having to keep two different measures in balance instead of just one.  And with the rollovers, it will be very costly to get spend up in the second year, so that trashes the DL rollover perk.

I do not think other airlines following is necessarily the case.  UA already trashed its program, in a different way, and I really do not see them adding a second trashing.  AA had been poaching high value customers from UA based on that trashing, and has now started doing that from DL as well.  That really would blow up in their face to now trash their own program when they have been holding themselves up as a refuge from the trashing at other airlines.  Kicking these new members in the teeth like that would send them to other airlines.

DL thought they could get others to follow in the Rob Borden trashing of SkyMiles some years ago, but only CO partially followed, with a safety valve where using the CO website negated the downgrades. The late Beth Shutis, (sp?)  head of NW's WorldPerks program was the one who stopped any further copycatting dead in its tracks by putting her foot down and saying that NW would have absolutely no part of what DL was pushing.

AA and NW were always the two most customer friendly ff programs, and DL and US the two least customer friendly, although DL was fine up until shortly before the arrival of Rob Borden.  Customers rebellions have stopped ff downgrades at both DL and US dead in their tracks.  At US, the customers organized, calling themselves the Cockroaches and fought back.  US caved in a matter of weeks.  At DL, the www.saveskymiles.com campaign took longer, and it took DL a couple of years, a big loss in high value customers, and several quarter page ads against their changes  in USA Today, to see the light (or more likely feel the heat) and cave.

The real danger, of course, is a takeover of customer-friendly AA by customer unfriendly US, but recent signs indicate that is less likely to happen.


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## Carolinian (Jan 20, 2013)

MichaelColey said:


> But the whole point is that those people who get status with very low spending AREN'T their best customers.
> 
> A few years ago, I got top tier status on American Airlines (plus about 250k redeemable miles) by flying about $2500 worth of flights.  Others do similar things with Delta.  They're just taking a step to make it harder.
> 
> ...



Pure high bucket customers are not that common.  Mixed fare flyers seem to be by far the biggest group, and these are high value customers whom this program will run off.  That is where the bleeding came from under the Rob Borden program, and it caused enough damage to DL that they caved in, reversed back to the old program and fired Borden.

I also doubt that there are enough pure milage runners to make that much difference.


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## x3 skier (Jan 20, 2013)

*I resign hors combat*

Apparently my stipulation wasn't broad enough.

I hereby further stpulate that Skymiles in the begining was NDG, until Mr Borden (Elsie the Cow's relative?) made it NFG, but the the Heroes from Saveskymiles made it back to only NDG. I further stipulate Delta did apparently make it to just plain No Good by instituting rollover but then quickly deteriorated to NDG by hiding low miles awards that only a very few useful idiots (as described by Karl Marx) with a lot of time and no useful other activity to pursue could find (the stipulator admits to being one such idiot, albeit usually successful). I also further stipulate the recent changes have now degraded Skymiles to the level of ANFG (Absolutely NFG) with zero chance of being even close to NFG in the future.

I also further stipulate that should the mass defection predicted result in Skymiles becoming useful to any remaing useful idiots such as the aforesaid stipulator, I will immediately recommend Delta be notified so that appropriate punitive action be taken against said useful idiots less others decide it might be even an infinitesimaly small advantage to fly Delta and gather Skymiles.



PS, if anyone wishes to add their name to this stipulation, I would have no objection but will not be held responsible for any susequent actions that may or may not occur including the remote chance obtaining one of the only three low miles awards that may or may not exist or achieving status with Delta as a result of spending and flying or winning the Power Ball lottery or other heretofore undisclosed secret double probation methods of achieving Medallion Staus.


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## Carolinian (Jan 21, 2013)

This airline blog has some interesting details on the changes:

http://www.flyertalk.com/the-gate/blog/13823-the-revenue-component-of-skymiles-a-closer-look.html

This is incredible - business class flights on a partner that only earn 50% MQM's under the new DL chart (and zero MQD's)!


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## Carolinian (Jan 22, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> Most savvy travelers don't have many to rollover anyway. Once you make a level you want, if you have more travel, just switch airlines to try for staus on another airline unless someone else is paying the freight and you have no choice. If somebody else is paying the freight and making the selection of airline, why complain since you have no choice anyway.
> 
> 
> Cheers



If someone is doing enough travel for status on two airlines, they might consider that savvy, expecially if that is likely to be true year after year.  There are however reasons why someone may NOT consider it savvy such as 1) qualifying for million miler status is lessened by that strategy, and 2) one is earning double miles as a top elite, and putting miles on an airline where you have no status earns half as many miles, as well as often not qualifying for the 500 mile minimum.


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## Carolinian (Jan 22, 2013)

I think you mean Lizzie, rather than Elsie, and she was an ax murderess rather than a cow.

DL actually had a good program at one time.  They started going downhill with the elimination of the SWU's but were still, even then, not that bad.

As to the present, I think the FlyerTalk awards of 2012 show what most think.  AA was voted the top program in the Americas, and the runner up was not even based in the United States.  I wish they had conducted a vote for the worst program, as I am sure DL would have won that one!  The 2013 vote is currenly under way, and with the changes at UA and DL, there is little doubt that AA will come out on top again.  OneWorld AA partner BA was also voted the best program in Europe and Africa.  AA also won the Freddies last year.




x3 skier said:


> Apparently my stipulation wasn't broad enough.
> 
> I hereby further stpulate that Skymiles in the begining was NDG, until Mr Borden (Elsie the Cow's relative?) made it NFG, but the the Heroes from Saveskymiles made it back to only NDG. I further stipulate Delta did apparently make it to just plain No Good by instituting rollover but then quickly deteriorated to NDG by hiding low miles awards that only a very few useful idiots (as described by Karl Marx) with a lot of time and no useful other activity to pursue could find (the stipulator admits to being one such idiot, albeit usually successful). I also further stipulate the recent changes have now degraded Skymiles to the level of ANFG (Absolutely NFG) with zero chance of being even close to NFG in the future.
> 
> ...


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## x3 skier (Jan 22, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> I think you mean Lizzie, rather than Elsie, and she was an ax murderess rather than a cow.



No, I actually did mean Elsie the cow who was the mascot of the Borden company.


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## Carolinian (Jan 23, 2013)

CNN Money does not think much of DL's changes:  ''Why Fly Delta?''

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/01/23/delta-frequent-flyer/?iid=HP_River


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