# Historical Maintenance Fee spreadsheet



## ronparise (Jul 6, 2020)

I was throwing out all my old files.  and found this...Maintenance fees from 1994 to 2012.  If you want it , its yours









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## bendadin (Jul 6, 2020)

I need to say that I learned so much from you. Thank you.


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## schoolmarm (Jul 7, 2020)

Well, that was a great 'blast from the past'...I do miss Glen's Atozed site.  We had all the floor plans, and what rooms had what view and THE SPREADSHEET!  Thanks, Ron, for saving it. I couldn't find mine.  

<3


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## WyndhamBarter (Jul 7, 2020)

ronparise said:


> I was...



Nice to "see" you!!  You&yours all happy & hunkered down as need be?

Thanks for stopping by!!


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## Richelle (Jul 7, 2020)

Thank you!


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## CCdad (Jul 10, 2020)

Thanks for this Ron!

It brings back memories of the good old days of the individual Fairfield (FF) Yahoo user groups.; run by the Iowa Hawk before Glenn Benscoter convinced him to turn over Admin rights to the FF Yahoo groups as the Hawk phased out of daily activities.  

Then things moved to the forums.atozed.com web site for a period of time. Schoolmarm was correct; that site was built from the ground up with a lot of the information in the owner's directory and on the owner's web site.  There was WD push back about that site's use of WD intellectual property when the resort maps, points charts and unit layouts were added.

Much of the information in this MF spreadsheet came from an internal WD source; the FF user groups didn't have the breadth of ownership to build this (much like we currently struggle to do). I had a paper copy of the MF file somewhere and at one point had the XLS file, but that was a couple of old PC hard drives ago. 

I'd posted in another discussion how WD used the Standard / Designated Developer Controlled MF rate in a couple of new resorts to entice folks to either buy or equity trade into the lower MF resort.  Look at 2005/2006 - 2009 MF rates for Atlantic City and Waikiki Beach Walk.  It didn't take long to migrate their low MF rate back towards the average of other UDI points resorts.  Atlantic City took just two years to almost surpass the average MF rate, a higher MF rate than many of the more popular beach locations.


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## bendadin (Jul 11, 2020)

Is there one of these spreadsheets for the number of units and sizes at each resort? Was that information in a really old directory?


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## CCdad (Jul 11, 2020)

bendadin said:


> Is there one of these spreadsheets for the number of units and sizes at each resort? Was that information in a really old directory?



My recollection is that both the points chart and the unit map with the unit numbers on them were downloaded from a pre-Voyager owner’s web site. Hence WD’s objection to anyone putting them into another owner’s blog.

There was no tracking of a specific resort’s unit sizes and the number of those units in any organized spreadsheet on those two sets of owner blogs.

In some cases, where an owner bought a property while under construction, WD may have given them a Disclosure Statement or Public Offering listing that information for that resort. I don’t know that anyone ever tried to organize it in a spreadsheet.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ddavid1073 (Jul 11, 2020)

Ron,
Thanks!.  I was just thinking of posting a question on what are the 5 or 6 lowest maintenance fee Wyn Timeshare ANd I thought, Ron would definitely know this. And here you are!  Would you share that information with us?  Thanks!


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## ronparise (Jul 19, 2020)

ddavid1073 said:


> Ron,
> Thanks!.  I was just thinking of posting a question on what are the 5 or 6 lowest maintenance fee Wyn Timeshare ANd I thought, Ron would definitely know this. And here you are!  Would you share that information with us?  Thanks!



Its been some time since I owned any of this And when I was buying I was more of a quantity guy than quality. I owned enough that overall I paid the average. I didnt worry too much about any one contract. There are others here that Im sure have a better fix on this than I do 

Having said that,, Canterbury and Panama City come to mind. And the high season converted fixed weeks (especially 3 bedrooms and lockoffs) at Bali Hai and Williamsburg Va


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## ronparise (Jul 19, 2020)

Here's another "blast from the past" It gives a little historical perspective on Wyndhams "megarenter problem"









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In 2011 when I started to build my little empire, little did I know that Wyndham was actively working to close down the megarenters.


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## dgalati (Jul 19, 2020)

ronparise said:


> Here's another "blast from the past" It gives a little historical perspective on Wyndhams "megarenter problem"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 The madness continues and unfortunately 
for owners that bought into the BS the squeeze is still focused on owners that offer rentals. It may sound crazy but Sales also continues to sell owners more points on the belief they can rent them and cover maintenance fees. COVID-19 probably put a few out of business that counted on rentals to cover maintenance fees. I suspect with the amount of points that were rolled over into next year a few more will tap out sometime next year.


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## bobbyoc23 (Jul 19, 2020)

ronparise said:


> Here's another "blast from the past" It gives a little historical perspective on Wyndhams "megarenter problem"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What was the outcome of this particular complaint?


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## ronparise (Jul 21, 2020)

bobbyoc23 said:


> What was the outcome of this particular complaint?




I dont know


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## CCdad (Jul 21, 2020)

bobbyoc23 said:


> What was the outcome of this particular complaint?



I think there's an appeal in process if my Google search is accurate.  

There may be significant rental activity on Ebay at Sundara Cottages associated with the some of the litigants.


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## NOLA47 (Aug 1, 2020)

Is wyndham the only timeshare company having issues with renting units?


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## Pathways (Aug 1, 2020)

NOLA47 said:


> Is wyndham the only timeshare company having issues with renting units?



I must have missed it. What problems is Wyndham having with renting units?


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## NOLA47 (Aug 1, 2020)

I was reading an existing thread on the subject and saw it mentioned that Wyndham had an issue with owners with lots of points and rent lots of units. It was an older thread. I just thought someone might have input on other timeshare companies.


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## Sandy VDH (Aug 1, 2020)

@ronparise I am sure you are happy to be out of the rental business during these COVID time.  Glad to see you around.  Was wondering where you have gone off to.

Cheers
Sandy


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## Richelle (Aug 1, 2020)

NOLA47 said:


> I was reading an existing thread on the subject and saw it mentioned that Wyndham had an issue with owners with lots of points and rent lots of units. It was an older thread. I just thought someone might have input on other timeshare companies.


They don't like it when people ignore the program guideline that says it's for personal use and enjoyment and not commercial purposes.  Wyndham is ok with owners occasionally renting.  They are not ok with people using it for commercial purposes to turn a profit.  There was more to that thread than just the rentals.  Mega renters were buying contracts, depositing the points into the credit pool, and turn around and sell the stripped contract.  If the mega renter was honest, they told the buyer that there were no points available.  The buyers would take it because it would get them a desirable contract at a much lower price.  Meanwhile, mega renters were using those points they didn't pay maintenance fees on to rent out units.  They were also using the cancel rebook game to book to stretch those points out even further.  From what I understand, the mega renters turned a decent profit.  The other problem was there was a bug in Wyndham's system that some mega renters were exploiting.  I don't recall the specifics, but mega renters were getting more points because of this bug.  Points that did not come from contracts.  Another loophole they were taking advantage of, was affiliate contracts that were being counted as developer bought, even if they were bought on eBay.  Some had made it to Platnium that way, for a significantly lower price.  Wyndham has mostly fixed these flaws.  There are still some issues with transferring points to new owners, but that's a different issue then what was discussed in that thread.

I know RCI does not allow renting.  I would imagine there are others that don't allow renting.  Whether they enforce that rule or not, is an entirely different story.


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## littlestar (Aug 1, 2020)

Great to see you post, Ron.  Hope you are doing well.


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## ronparise (Aug 3, 2020)

Richelle said:


> They don't like it when people ignore the program guideline that says it's for personal use and enjoyment and not commercial purposes.  Wyndham is ok with owners occasionally renting.  They are not ok with people using it for commercial purposes to turn a profit.  There was more to that thread than just the rentals.  Mega renters were buying contracts, depositing the points into the credit pool, and turn around and sell the stripped contract.  If the mega renter was honest, they told the buyer that there were no points available.  The buyers would take it because it would get them a desirable contract at a much lower price.  Meanwhile, mega renters were using those points they didn't pay maintenance fees on to rent out units.  They were also using the cancel rebook game to book to stretch those points out even further.  From what I understand, the mega renters turned a decent profit.  The other problem was there was a bug in Wyndham's system that some mega renters were exploiting.  I don't recall the specifics, but mega renters were getting more points because of this bug.  Points that did not come from contracts.  Another loophole they were taking advantage of, was affiliate contracts that were being counted as developer bought, even if they were bought on eBay.  Some had made it to Platnium that way, for a significantly lower price.  Wyndham has mostly fixed these flaws.  There are still some issues with transferring points to new owners, but that's a different issue then what was discussed in that thread.
> 
> I know RCI does not allow renting.  I would imagine there are others that don't allow renting.  Whether they enforce that rule or not, is an entirely different story.




A little clarification.... one of your points at a time

1)  You say that "They don't like it when people ignore the program guideline that says it's for personal use and enjoyment and not commercial purposes." 
Thats certainly true, but that line didnt appear in the guidelines until the publication of the 2013/2014 directory, I started doing rentals in 2011. 

2) A discussion of the credit pool was also in the directory, It was presented as a way to avoid  losing   your points if you couldnt use them all in a particular year, or as a way to save points to use for a really big vacation in one of the next two years. What wasnt written in the book was that not only could you "push" points into future, you could also "pull"  future points into the present. I didnt know such a thing was possible until a VC told me.  Ultimately every first week in January, I would put everything I could into the pool, for the flexibility it offered and because I never had enough points.  The point is I didnt sell anything, I was a buyer, not a seller.  Until my points manager put a limit on the number of points he would take from me. I was going to have to either stop buying or find a way to sell this stuff.

3) I bought a lot of points on eBay.  Only once did I get a contract with missing points and all it took was a phone call and they made me whole.
Dumping stripped contracts on unsuspecting buyers just didnt happen

You make it sound so easy...buy, strip and sell, but I couldnt find anyone that would buy (or even take for free) stripped contracts. and I couldnt find any brokers that would try to sell them either, I got to the point that when someone would ask me; "What is your exit plan"  my answer was that i would die, and leave the problem for someone else. 

It took a while but I found a guy who said he could get it done He only accepted 2/3 of what I gave him because they wouldnt take converted weeks and he wouldnt tell me who his buyer was...(the deeds I signed were to some anonymous LLC.)  Ultimately  I found that Wyndham was the buyer, The chain of title went from me, through my guy to the LLC through another broker (who worked for Wyndham)  and ultimately  to Wyndham .    

So,  Did I/we take advantage of Wyndham??? I dont think so.    I was paid $5/1000 points  and I believe each of the other players were paid about the same.. so Wyndham paid $15/1000,  Maybe $20.. If they had to hold the contracts  for two years to make up for the missing points; maintenance fees at $6/1000 for two years their total investment was under $35/1000 points..   These points were in the salesman's hands, quicker and cheaper than building a new resort. 
I dont think I took advantage of Wyndham. 
I did get the use of a lot of points without paying the fees, but that dosent mean that that the fees weren't paid...the deal was.... I got the points, my buyer got the contract and the responsibility for two years of fees  Win-Win-Win

4) We megarenters were not the only ones that did the cancel/rebook thing. I was at an annual meeting where several small owners were complaining that it was getting difficult to do a cancel/rebook. These guys believed it was their right to get every reservation at half price. At least we megarenters  knew it was a game and we knew it wouldnt last

5) The bug you are talking about was one i didnt know about at the time, although I should have..  As I understand it,  you could cancel a reservation and get your points back. And the next day the reservation was back in the account  and you could do it again.
If it did happen to me I didnt realize it. I didnt do a daily accounting (or weekly or monthly)  I just kept buying to keep ahead of my renting. 

 When Wyndham suspended our accounts it was because we had more points in our accounts than our ownerships justified. They did not just go after megarenters, They caught a bunch of small owners in their net too.  Wyndham knew about cancel rebook, they knew about the credit pool, I told them about cheap VIP. and I told them that they had purchased my stripped contracts.  There was other stuff too, like using the 4 use years to roll points forward so they never expired.  But for the longest time they absolutely refused to believe that their system was flawed, And except for a few of us mega renters that worked the loopholes really hard, I think it was that flaw in Wyndhams system that brought most of the suspended accounts to that point. and because none of those guys abused the system on purpose; they are still owners and Im not

FYI the first contracts I bought were 3 converted weeks at the New Bern NC property, one of the early Fairfield resorts, and it came with a Silver membership

6)  About profit.. When I started renting I focused on one thing, and that was Mardi Gras, As I bought more I added to the account and expanded to other holiday and festival weekends in New Orleans The profit wasnt great,  My rentals paid for my maintenance fees with enough points left for a vacation or two for myself. I didnt really make much until another tugger contacted me to let me know how to get a platinum account with , a 125000 point eoy contract ($6000 down and $6000 financed) and several Pahio weeks. But there ws only one salesman at Bali Hai that could make it happen. I called him and he did.....  twice.  Then working with another tugger we figured out how to get a Platinum account without any developer purchase... He bought a 500000 point Bali Hai  contract on eBay and it went into its own account and it was a Gold account.  He called me to ask if I knew what happened. I didnt but I had a Silver account with contracts purchased on eBay...So we put our heads together and figured out what our accounts had in common. tested our assumption and determined that any contract number that started with 0080... would contribute to VIP.. that was affiliate contracts as you said, plus some Pahio contracts and ElCid contracts. so I ended up with 5 Platinum accounts 

I dont think I would have made enough profit to make it all worthwhile, except for the half price reservations, 150 guest confirms,  and free housekeeping. Even then If I had to pay Wyndham prices for 5 Platinum VIP accounts, the return on investment would not have been  enough to satisfy me. and since I would have had to finance 5 million points I think I would have lost money

I didnt know it when I started but Wyndham had made a lot of rule changes to make renting unprofitable just before I bought my first contract. I believe that Windham's top management  believed that they had solved their megarenter  "problem" and they took their eye off the ball. which allowed me and others to do what we did without interference. 


I dont believe Wyndham would have ever figured things out except for that flaw in the system that generated extra points


So what you said in your post was accurate, but the reality was far more nuanced


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## Richelle (Aug 3, 2020)

ronparise said:


> A little clarification.... one of your points at a time
> 
> 1)  You say that "They don't like it when people ignore the program guideline that says it's for personal use and enjoyment and not commercial purposes."
> Thats certainly true, but that line didnt appear in the guidelines until the publication of the 2013/2014 directory, I started doing rentals in 2011.
> ...



For the record, I didn't specify you in any of this.  In fact, the only real part I thought about you specifically was the stripped contracts because of comments I saw in an earlier thread.  There were multiple mentions of stripped contracts and your name.  I just now did a search of "stripped contracts" because I knew I wasn't imagining things.  Even though you crossed my mind on this, I at no point thought you were the only one who would do this.  If there was a loophole, many people would be using it.  







For point 1, the language was added two years or so before they started suspending accounts.  When that language was added, one could assume they did that because people were using the program for commercial purposes, so it should have been obvious that they meant for the points manager to stop.  Whether it was reasonable to expect them to stop, is another story.  I agree with you on point 2.  I didn't think there was anything wrong with putting points in the credit pool the first chance you got.  Aside from being able to take bigger vacations, it was a way to ensure you didn't lose points at the end of the year, assuming you actually took vacations during those 3 years  For point #4, I never said mega renters were the only ones who took advantage of that.  As far as mega renters knowing the game wouldn't last, I mostly agree.  I don't think all mega renters expected Wyndham to take it away, but the smart ones did.  It was common sense that Wyndham would eventually take it away because those discounts were never meant for the prime inventory that people (including non-mega renters) were using it for.  The cancel rebook game was a loophole. Again, if there is a loophole, many people would use it.  For point #5, again, I never mentioned you specifically.  There was actually a different mega renter that came to mind that did know it was happening, but I am not going to call them out in public.  I'm sure if someone digs deep enough, they can probably find out on their own, but I won't mention it here.  I thought they terminated his/her account, but I could be wrong.   For #6, I am not sure if you think, that I thought the affiliate contract loophole was wrong in any way.  That was Wyndham's internal system and if it was a big deal, I would think they would have tried harder to fix that problem.  It's not on the owner to correct Wyndham's mistakes, nor would I expect them to know it was a mistake.  If they got VIP out of it, that's great.  Wish I would have known about it earlier.  Also, if you didn't make any profit, why did you stick with it for so long?  I'm not sure if it was you or someone else who mentioned it was a lot of work, and almost a full-time job.   Just curious.  Was it a hobby?  One thing is for sure, the changes might have taken out some mega renters, but many are still alive and well today.


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## ronparise (Aug 3, 2020)

Richelle said:


> For the record, I didn't specify you in any of this.  In fact, the only real part I thought about you specifically was the stripped contracts because of comments I saw in an earlier thread.  There were multiple mentions of stripped contracts and your name.  I just now did a search of "stripped contracts" because I knew I wasn't imagining things.  Even though you crossed my mind on this, I at no point thought you were the only one who would do this.  If there was a loophole, many people would be using it.
> View attachment 24454
> View attachment 24455
> 
> For point 1, the language was added two years or so before they started suspending accounts.  When that language was added, one could assume they did that because people were using the program for commercial purposes, so it should have been obvious that they meant for the points manager to stop.  Whether it was reasonable to expect them to stop, is another story.  I agree with you on point 2.  I didn't think there was anything wrong with putting points in the credit pool the first chance you got.  Aside from being able to take bigger vacations, it was a way to ensure you didn't lose points at the end of the year, assuming you actually took vacations during those 3 years  For point #4, I never said mega renters were the only ones who took advantage of that.  As far as mega renters knowing the game wouldn't last, I mostly agree.  I don't think all mega renters expected Wyndham to take it away, but the smart ones did.  It was common sense that Wyndham would eventually take it away because those discounts were never meant for the prime inventory that people (including non-mega renters) were using it for.  The cancel rebook game was a loophole. Again, if there is a loophole, many people would use it.  For point #5, again, I never mentioned you specifically.  There was actually a different mega renter that came to mind that did know it was happening, but I am not going to call them out in public.  I'm sure if someone digs deep enough, they can probably find out on their own, but I won't mention it here.  I thought they terminated his/her account, but I could be wrong.   For #6, I am not sure if you think, that I thought the affiliate contract loophole was wrong in any way.  That was Wyndham's internal system and if it was a big deal, I would think they would have tried harder to fix that problem.  It's not on the owner to correct Wyndham's mistakes, nor would I expect them to know it was a mistake.  If they got VIP out of it, that's great.  Wish I would have known about it earlier.  Also, if you didn't make any profit, why did you stick with it for so long?  I'm not sure if it was you or someone else who mentioned it was a lot of work, and almost a full-time job.   Just curious.  Was it a hobby?  One thing is for sure, the changes might have taken out some mega renters, but many are still alive and well today.




No doubt I took your post personally and my response was more than just a little defensive. But after all,  Im the only self identified "megarenter" that posted here.  I know you didnt mention my name, but who else could you be talking about

I really believe that Wyndham's top management thought that they had ended what they called "megarenting" by 2010 and took their eye off the ball. And I think we would still be renting except for the one guy that "broke" Wundhams computers when he tried to move millions of points to the credit pool on one phone call 

regarding profit.. 
I started buying Wyndham timeshares for my own use, Unfortunately I did it without my wifes knowledge. When I told what I had done she said in no uncertain terms that buying timeshares was one of the dumbest things I had ever done. Interestingly she didnt say, "you better sell this stuff"  She said; *"You better find a way to rent this shit"   *So I did. and I had the worst luck I could possible have, I was successful at it.. I made enough to pay all my fees and return the money I spent back to our checking account and had enough points to spend a week at Bonnet Creek at Christmas

My first goal was to make enough that I could vacation a month or two with my profit. That worked  so I made a new goal... to make $2000 a month....That worked too.. And that would have been the end of it except that I learned how to get a Platinum account for less than $12000 and I found an opportunity to go really big.  And I did. . but instead of hiring a staff, I signed my accounts over to a points manager I kept some points for my own rentals, to keep the $2000 a month cash flow going  and just barely broke even with the points manager (he paid $6/1000 points)........until the lights went on.. *The Credit Pool  * I could buy a million point contract, and using the credit pool I would have 3 million points for my points manager and he would pay me $18000. less maintenance fees, I would net $12000 but thats not really profit as I was still on the hook for 2 years of fees   In the following years I would break even on that million point contract Not a great strategy as I had to keep buying to keep the cash flow going,. I expected to keep buying at 10 million points a year for five or six years and then walk away. but I was trying to find a way to sell or give away the older contracts (stripped of points)  I think I was able to get rid of three contracts; one very small contract to a guy that wanted another name one one contract in his account and one Canterbury contract (theres a story for another time,   on how I got that contract)  and one Panama City Beach contract  But then I found a guy,, He took 20 million  points in the first year after I found him, and in the second year, and third year I was able to buy strip and sell.. And then game over Wyndham froze my accounts... 

So in less than 6 years I went from $0  to $20000 a year to $120000 to $180000 and back to zero.... But if you have been following along you see that I made very little from renting, My points manager made the big money. I made my money buying , then selling the points to one guy and selling the empty contracts to another, So no it wasnt just a hobby, and my cash flow was pretty good for a couple of years, but I made very little money actually doing vacation rentals

When Wyndham took me out,  they offered no money but promised not to sue me.. I turned that down and asked for $1,000.000 to go away.... We settled somewhere between those two extremes.


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## Richelle (Aug 3, 2020)

ronparise said:


> No doubt I took your post personally and my response was more than just a little defensive. But after all,  Im the only self identified "megarenter" that posted here.  I know you didnt mention my name, but who else could you be talking about


I'm pretty sure when people talk about megarenters, they are not always talking about you.  The same applies to my post.  A megarenter doesn't have to identify themseleves as a mega renter to be a megarenter.  My post was not directed at one specific megarenter.  It sounds like from your post, the points manager would qualify as a megarenter?


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## chapjim (Aug 3, 2020)

ronparise said:


> No doubt I took your post personally and my response was more than just a little defensive. But after all,  Im the only self identified "megarenter" that posted here.  I know you didnt mention my name, but who else could you be talking about
> 
> I really believe that Wyndham's top management thought that they had ended what they called "megarenting" by 2010 and took their eye off the ball. And I think we would still be renting except for the one guy that "broke" Wundhams computers when he tried to move millions of points to the credit pool on one phone call
> 
> ...



Ron,

You still got the boat?


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## ronparise (Aug 3, 2020)

Richelle said:


> I'm pretty sure when people talk about megarenters, they are not always talking about you.  The same applies to my post.  A megarenter doesn't have to identify themseleves as a mega renter to be a megarenter.  My post was not directed at one specific megarenter.  It sounds like from your post, the points manager would qualify as a megarenter?


''

like I said, I took it personally

and I shouldnt have


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## Richelle (Aug 3, 2020)

ronparise said:


> ''
> 
> like I said, I took it personally
> 
> and I shouldnt have



Sorry, I misread the tone of your last comment.  I might claim to be smart, but I'll never claim to be bright.


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## ronparise (Aug 3, 2020)

chapjim said:


> Ron,
> 
> You still got the boat?




No, the boat is gone,   As long as I was making money with Wyndham I could keep it up, but when I lost my income I had to pay for its upkeep out of savings.. and I didnt much like that


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## dgalati (Aug 3, 2020)

ronparise said:


> No doubt I took your post personally and my response was more than just a little defensive. But after all,  Im the only self identified "megarenter" that posted here.  I know you didnt mention my name, but who else could you be talking about
> 
> I really believe that Wyndham's top management thought that they had ended what they called "megarenting" by 2010 and took their eye off the ball. And I think we would still be renting except for the one guy that "broke" Wundhams computers when he tried to move millions of points to the credit pool on one phone call
> 
> ...


Congrats Ron! I hope it was on the upper side of the extremes. Its nice to know a few  get the upper hand on the man knowing the beat down they give to unsuspecting couples daily!!! I will keep playing every angle I can to travel for less without any regrets.


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## chapjim (Aug 3, 2020)

I had a boat for a while when I lived in Kentucky -- a little 24' power boat with a 318 cu. in. Chrysler V8 and a cuddy cabin.  Lots of fun out on the Ohio River and in some of the many impoundments downstate.  I towed it to Virginia Beach when I got transferred to a ship in Norfolk.  The hull form was okay in lakes and rivers and calm days in the lower end of the Chesapeake Bay.  But, with a wind out of any north quadrant, the Bay was too rough and I only went out in the Atlantic a few times on the quietest of days.  Even then, the boat did a lot of pounding just in the swells in the ocean.

I went from Norfolk to Monterey, CA and there was no way I was going to haul a boat cross-country at 9.1 mpg and put it in the Pacific.  Also, the price of gas was going up and up so I sold it.  They are fun as heck but almost constant work and a lot of money to keep them up and operate them.

Totally understand what you're saying.


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## dgalati (Aug 3, 2020)

chapjim said:


> I had a boat for a while when I lived in Kentucky -- a little 24' power boat with a 318 cu. in. Chrysler V8 and a cuddy cabin.  Lots of fun out on the Ohio River and in some of the many impoundments downstate.  I towed it to Virginia Beach when I got transferred to a ship in Norfolk.  The hull form was okay in lakes and rivers and calm days in the lower end of the Chesapeake Bay.  But, with a wind out of any north quadrant, the Bay was too rough and I only went out in the Atlantic a few times on the quietest of days.  Even then, the boat did a lot of pounding just in the swells in the ocean.
> 
> I went from Norfolk to Monterey, CA and there was no way I was going to haul a boat cross-country at 9.1 mpg and put it in the Pacific.  Also, the price of gas was going up and up so I sold it.  They are fun as heck but almost constant work and a lot of money to keep them up and operate them.
> 
> Totally understand what you're saying.


The happiest day of a boat owners life is the day he sells it.  Its like having a pool, everyone loves to come over and enjoy it but no one knows how much work it is and how much it costs to maintain!


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## kaljor (Aug 7, 2020)

There were probably quite a few "megarenters" within the Wyndham system, but as far as I know only a couple who posted here regularly.  @ronparise and @am1 are the two I mostly noticed.  They may not have given away all their secrets, but they posted a ton of useful information in their very helpful messages here in TUG.  

Their posts enabled me to thoroughly understand the system.  I learned that in my specific situation I wouldn't need a VIP ownership to benefit from a Wyndham ownership.  And that's really the name of the game, figuring out what works for you.


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## A.Win (Aug 7, 2020)

Ron's posts were always the most informative. I learned so much from reading them. I became Platinum by paying Wyndham the full price because I didn't know how to do it the cheap way. But I have no regrets. I have been able to rent them easily enough, and I have enjoyed lots of Wyndham resorts.


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## A.Win (Aug 7, 2020)

Ron's story is really about buying low and selling high. He bought contracts on ebay at a low price. He used the points and sold them to someone else without the points for the next couple years. I didn't realize that Wyndham was the buyer. So Wyndham should have bought directly from ebay instead of buying stripped contracts from Ron.


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## scootr5 (Aug 7, 2020)

I actually took one of Ron’s smaller “stripped” contracts, and I still consider it one of my best timeshare deals. I’ve only seen a South Shore contract available on the internet twice.


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## dgalati (Aug 8, 2020)

A.Win said:


> Ron's story is really about buying low and selling high. He bought contracts on ebay at a low price. He used the points and sold them to someone else without the points for the next couple years. I didn't realize that Wyndham was the buyer. So Wyndham should have bought directly from ebay instead of buying stripped contracts from Ron.


That is a pretty simple strategy and it still works today under a different strategy. The negative balance put in play may have affected him adversely.  Worse yet not being able to sell deeds without future use year points would of put him out of business. Luck plays to ones advantage at times.


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## Eric B (Aug 8, 2020)

"I can rent from a VIP at a 50% discount on reservations made less than 60 days from check-in" is still not really accurate and might be akin to false advertising.  It would be more accurate to say that "I can rent from a Club Wyndham VIPP who gets a 50% discount and upgrades when available for reservations made less than 60 days from the check-in date, which might be less than I could make my own reservation for with a resale ownership if they pass at least some of the savings on to me."  That would reflect the fact that it's not a right that anyone has to get a 50% discount on rentals < 60 days, but instead is dependent on what the rental market for VIP owners using their extra points is and whether they choose to provide a reduced cost to reflect their savings.  It might work for folks that have sufficient travel flexibility, but then again the same holds true for RCI extra vacations, etc.  To others that have restrictions on their travel flexibility it could be tiresome to keep reading it.


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## dgalati (Aug 8, 2020)

Eric B said:


> "I can rent from a VIP at a 50% discount on reservations made less than 60 days from check-in" is still not really accurate and might be akin to false advertising.  It would be more accurate to say that "I can rent from a Club Wyndham VIPP who gets a 50% discount and upgrades when available for reservations made less than 60 days from the check-in date, which might be less than I could make my own reservation for with a resale ownership if they pass at least some of the savings on to me."  That would reflect the fact that it's not a right that anyone has to get a 50% discount on rentals < 60 days, but instead is dependent on what the rental market for VIP owners using their extra points is and whether they choose to provide a reduced cost to reflect their savings.  It might work for folks that have sufficient travel flexibility, but then again the same holds true for RCI extra vacations, etc.  To others that have restrictions on their travel flexibility it could be tiresome to keep reading it.


@Richelle LOL you tried?


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## ronparise (Aug 8, 2020)

kaljor said:


> There were probably quite a few "megarenters" within the Wyndham system, but as far as I know only a couple who posted here regularly.  @ronparise and @am1 are the two I mostly noticed.  They may not have given away all their secrets, but they posted a ton of useful information in their very helpful messages here in TUG.
> 
> Their posts enabled me to thoroughly understand the system.  I learned that in my specific situation I wouldn't need a VIP ownership to benefit from a Wyndham ownership.  And that's really the name of the game, figuring out what works for you.



There were two "secrets" I held back on  1) How to get VIP without the need to buy from Wyndham   2) That I was selling stripped contracts back to Wyndham 

 Neither one had anything to do with using the system for family vacations even renting.  I learned most of that here and on Glenn's old Wyndham owners group. and then played it forward.

I guess there is one more secret and that is the details of my agreement with Wyndham, that took me out.


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## Richelle (Aug 9, 2020)

dgalati said:


> @Richelle LOL you tried?



I don’t disagree, but I still laughed a little because that is long to put in a signature. 

@Eric B,  Maybe in addition to what he put, would adding “Individual results might vary based on travel needs and availability” be accurate enough to cover that?


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## kaljor (Aug 9, 2020)

scootr5 said:


> I actually took one of Ron’s smaller “stripped” contracts, and I still consider it one of my best timeshare deals. I’ve only seen a South Shore contract available on the internet twice.



Nothing at all wrong with selling or buying a stripped contract as long as all the details are made clear to the buyer.  I remember that there was a very tempting Canterbury stripped contract available, with it clearly stated that the buyer would have to pay the MF's for a couple of years before using it.  I tried to make it work for me and although it didn't,  I was glad to have the opportunity. And someone got a great deal on that.


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## ronparise (Aug 9, 2020)

A.Win said:


> Ron's story is really about buying low and selling high. He bought contracts on ebay at a low price. He used the points and sold them to someone else without the points for the next couple years. I didn't realize that Wyndham was the buyer. So Wyndham should have bought directly from ebay instead of buying stripped contracts from Ron.



What I did was something the evolved one step at a time and there was a whole lot that happened before I would, buy, strip and sell

1) Between November 2010 and Jan 2011 I bought 385000 Wyndham points and one week at The Avenue Plaza Resort in New Orleans. The Avenue Plaza week came with the 2011 fees paid and with a reservation for Mardi Gras  .I wasnt going to use that Mardi Gras reservation so I put it on Craigslist and got it rented almost immediately  That worked out well so at 10 months I made five 3 and 4 day reservations for the 2012 Mardi Gras to rent, and a week at Bonnet Creek for Christmas 2011... for myself.  The income from the 5 rentals paid for all the maintenancs fees, so the week at Bonnet Creek was free... I was hooked
I continued to buy, make reservations (mostly in New Orleans) and rent them, the rentals paid the fees and I had points left over for myself...

2) I was a tug member by then and had gotten involved in a long discussion about the timeshare liquidation companies and Viking Ships  and the problems they caused at resorts. I took the unpopular position that these outfits  provided a necessary service,  I got a message from the one other participant in that discussion that agreed with me,  suggesting we meet.. I had no idea what for, but I drove to Orlando to meet him at the timeshare he was staying at. The end result was that we formed a relationship with one of the timeshare relief companies. I got all their Wyndham points and weeks if I wanted them, and he got everything from another timeshare system.

3) So I was getting big. too big to use all my points for Mardi Gras and other high value weeks and weekends. I had learned about cancel and rebook for half price, but I needed to be Platinum VIP. Again Tug to the rescue.. Two tuggers let me know the secret to a low priced VIP account, I had to contact one particular salesman at Bali Hai, buy a small contract from him and convert several Pahio weeks to points and voila....Platinum. I bought enough enough Pahio weeks to do it twice, I bought two 126000 point contracts for $6000 down and $6000 financed (each) and converted 6 Pahio weeks to get 2 platinum accounts. Later I figured out that certain Pahio weeks that had been converted to points held their VIP status when sold. I used that knowledge to build 3 more Platinum accounts

4) now I was too big to handle it all myself, I needed help. I found a Points manager guy that said he could handle everything. I maintained my speciality  in New Orleans, but he handled everything else. The problem was he only paid me $6/1000 points which was only about 50 cents / 1000 more than my maintenance fees.  There was really no more incentive to grow. Until I figured out how to use the credit pool. .. Everything went into the pool and my guy paid me $6/1000.  So for example I would get  1,000,000 points, put 3 million in the pool and be paid $18000. Depending on what time of the year I got those points I paid anywhere  between no fees and one year of fees. Most of what I got came in in the last quarter, so for every million points I would "make" $10k to $12K.  The problem i know you can see is that in the second and following years Id only make $500/ million points. and at sometime in the future Id have to get rid of a stripped contract. When asked about my exit plan, I would say Im gonna die owning this stuff. It will be someone elses problem. In the meantime  I planned to buy 10 million points a year (making about $100000/year plus my New Orleans stuff. When I got to 50 million points under management Id stop buying and continue to make about $20000 a year plus about $40000 in New Orleans. Id be 70 with social security a little pension plus $50k or so from the timeshares

The reason Im going through my story is not to just bore you, but I want to make it clear that  I did not intend to sell stripped contracts or any contracts, I intended to grow to 50 million points and then,  except for 3 or 4 New Orleans events,  retire. I even made arrangements  for the points manager to continue to manage the points for my wife, if I was to die before her

5) But what happened was that I didnt die, and came to the realization that i will probably never retire, so I was going to keep growing...unfortunately my points manager let me know that he was reaching the limit of what he could handle from me. I began to call around to see if there was a market for stripped contracts. I was willing to even give them away, I hadnt yet gotten to the point where I would pay folks to take them off my hands, when I found a guy that said he could move them.  I didnt ask any questions,I asked, but he wouldnt tell me)  I sent him the deeds, for review, He prepared new deeds for my signature and away they went. I was paid a half a penny a point... that first year (2014) I sold 20 million and retained 10 million, at one point I followed one deed through the LLC that bought it from me back to Wyndham.. I suspected Wyndham was the buyer, but I didnt know for sure until I followed the deed. The next year (2015) I bought 20 and sold 20, (still retained 10) and in the 3rd year (2016) I bought and sold 10 million and had another 10 under contract, to buy,  when Wyndham froze the accounts (August 2016)  I know this was a good deal me and  Wyndham too They needed cheap inventory to resell and they got some of it from me.

I think I know why Wyndham didnt buy from EBay. Most Ebay inventory came from the timeshare relief companies. And Wyndham  had a policy not to buy anything from the timeshare relief companies, because they (the timeshare relief companies) were screwing Wyndhams customers. Thats why they created Ovation to give folks a way out without having to pay  (Which is what we were suggesting early on in that Tug thread i mentioned somewhere above)
In any case that was their policy but Ovation wasnt delivering all the inventory they wanted. They were hungry for more, and they wouldnt or couldnt buy from the relief companies, so they engaged a realestate company (actually 3 companies  I know of)  to buy points on their behalf)


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## ronparise (Aug 9, 2020)

deleted duplicate post


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## ronparise (Aug 9, 2020)

kaljor said:


> Nothing at all wrong with selling or buying a stripped contract as long as all the details are made clear to the buyer.  I remember that there was a very tempting Canterbury stripped contract available, with it clearly stated that the buyer would have to pay the MF's for a couple of years before using it.  I tried to make it work for me and although it didn't,  I was glad to have the opportunity. And someone got a great deal on that.




Remember, at the time scootr5  got that stripped contract from me, he didnt have to wait two years to use it.  the very next January he could take the points from 2 years out and put them in the credit pool to use immediately

But you are right, even if he held the contract and paid 2 years of fees,before he used it,  if the price was right, he got a fair deal. and I think Wyndham  and I did a deal that was good for both of us too


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## A.Win (Aug 9, 2020)

Ron,
Thanks for sharing your incredible story. For most people, it is probably ancient history. But as a Wyndham VIP around the 2011 to 2016 timeframe, it is a fascinating story.

I actually attempted to buy the stripped Canterbury contract from you as well. You quickly replied that it was no longer available. 

Can you please tell us how much time you spent on all of this Wyndham stuff from 2011 to 2017? It must have been close to a full time job. You were also on TUG for several hours a week, and I'm not sure if that counts as work time.


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## dgalati (Aug 9, 2020)

ronparise said:


> Remember, at the time scootr5  got that stripped contract from me, he didnt have to wait two years to use it.  the very next January he could take the points from 2 years out and put them in the credit pool to use immediately
> 
> But you are right, even if he held the contract and paid 2 years of fees,before he used it,  if the price was right, he got a fair deal. and I think Wyndham  and I did a deal that was good for both of us too


@ronparise  Wyndham actually did you a favor when they bought you out and you may have been very lucky to exit when you did. I don't think it would have been as profitable with a few of the changes that took place after your exit.
1) A negative balance issue that came into play when selling a deed without any current use year points available.
2) The policy of not being able to transfer deeds without future years points. 
3) The end of cancel and re book 
Wyndham does offer the option of paying $12/1000 on 1 & 2


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## dgalati (Aug 9, 2020)

ronparise said:


> I think I know why Wyndham didnt buy from EBay. Most Ebay inventory came from the timeshare relief companies. And Wyndham  had a policy not to buy anything from the timeshare relief companies, because they (the timeshare relief companies) were screwing Wyndhams customers. Thats why they created Ovation to give folks a way out without having to pay  (Which is what we were suggesting early on in that Tug thread i mentioned somewhere above)
> In any case that was their policy but Ovation wasn't delivering all the inventory they wanted. They were hungry for more, and they wouldnt or couldnt buy from the relief companies, so they engaged a real estate company (actually 3 companies  I know of)  to buy points on their behalf)


Its Ironic Wyndham didn't buy direct from relief companies but would buy third party from someone that bought from the relief companies. Wyndham benefited more then anyone on these cheap resale deeds that were given away for next to nothing by the exit companies and the traders of deeds.


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## ronparise (Aug 9, 2020)

A.Win said:


> Ron,
> Thanks for sharing your incredible story. For most people, it is probably ancient history. But as a Wyndham VIP around the 2011 to 2016 timeframe, it is a fascinating story.
> 
> I actually attempted to buy the stripped Canterbury contract from you as well. You quickly replied that it was no longer available.
> ...



When I really got going with timeshare rentals I was a real estate agent in a vacation home/second home market.  We would find our prospects on line and show them (and sell them) property when they visited Florida.  It was an easy transition to vacation rentals. and actually I spent less time at it than selling residential real estate,  When I got serious I had ads on Craigslist most of the time so I was available to take calls 24/7, I was at my desk by 7am every day To see what was new on EBay and bid. I checked my accounts for anything new, If so, they had to go into the credit pool and my points manager had to be notified and billed for the new points. I also sent invoices to renters and followed up on their payments... Most of the time I was done by noon

My time on Tug was a big part of my day. I found new customers there, I had folks offer me timeshares , I met others doing things similar to what I was doing. And when prospective renters were doing their due diligence, They could google me and find my posts. It gave them confidence to send money to a stranger they only knew from an ad on Craigslist. I also learned how to use (and perhaps abuse) the system from tuggers


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## ronparise (Aug 9, 2020)

dgalati said:


> Its Ironic Wyndham didn't buy direct from relief companies but would buy third party from someone that bought from the relief companies. Wyndham benefited more then anyone on these cheap resale deeds that were given away for next to nothing by the exit companies and the traders of deeds.




I believe top management really thought that Ovation would put an end to the relief companies working with their product.  They never understood that some folks would rather pay to get rid of their points than give Wyndham the opportunity to make even more money off of them


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## CCdad (Aug 9, 2020)

ronparise said:


> I believe top management really thought that Ovation would put an end to the relief companies working with their product. They never understood that some folks would rather pay to get rid of their points than give Wyndham the opportunity to make even more money off of them



When you step back and think about it, Ovations is Wyndham replicating and taking back your 3 years of stripped contract points system, but without paying the three or more outside LLCs that were their intermediaries. The exiting owners are happy and Wyndham still gets back relatively cheap inventory.

They wouldn’t be dealing with timeshare relief companies and could easily verify the existing owners being current on their MFs.


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## dgalati (Aug 9, 2020)

CCdad said:


> When you step back and think about it, Ovations is Wyndham replicating and taking back your 3 years of stripped contract points system, but without paying the three or more outside LLCs that were their intermediaries. The exiting owners are happy and Wyndham still gets back relatively cheap inventory.
> 
> They wouldn’t be dealing with timeshare relief companies and could easily verify the existing owners being current on their MFs.


Not so. Ovations will only take back deeds without current years use and they will not take back with out future years use unless you pay the points rental option of $12/1000 on the points that are not available. Ovations acceptance letter attached below.



> This email is to recap that you are voluntarily agreeing to participate in the Ovation by Wyndham program and understand and agree to the following requirements as we discussed today.





> *Maintenance Fee*: Must be and stay current until process is complete. Any paid fees are not refundable.
> 
> *Documentation to return inventory:* You understand that you will receive by email/mail documentation to return your inventory within 8-10 weeks. These documents must be signed, notarized, and returned within the number of days indicated on the documentation. Please keep in mind the sooner the documentation is returned the earlier the process may be completed. Once the document is received, it may take within 6-8 weeks for documents to be approved and the cancellation to be completed.
> 
> ...


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## ecwinch (Aug 10, 2020)

ronparise said:


> I believe top management really thought that Ovation would put an end to the relief companies working with their product.  They never understood that some folks would rather pay to get rid of their points than give Wyndham the opportunity to make even more money off of them



As one of those who benefited from your "pay it forward",  it's good to see you back posting on the forums. Hope all is well.


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## Wizzy (Apr 6, 2021)

ronparise said:


> I was throwing out all my old files.  and found this...Maintenance fees from 1994 to 2012.  If you want it , its yours
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did anyone download this? I am trying to put together a history Worldmark Maintenance fees from 1990 to present so if this is Worldmark it may be very helpful.


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## markb53 (Apr 7, 2021)

Wizzy said:


> Did anyone download this? I am trying to put together a history Worldmark Maintenance fees from 1990 to present so if this is Worldmark it may be very helpful.


I have it but it’s Wyndham not Worldmark.


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## Wizzy (Apr 7, 2021)

markb53 said:


> I have it but it’s Wyndham not Worldmark.


Thanks- Guess I'll keep looking for Worldmark dues data. I still need 1990 thru 2002.


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