# {UNLOCKED] Wyndham notice RE commercial use



## Grocheio (Sep 28, 2022)

I received a notice warning us that our account had been associated with commercial use and that is prohibited. Surely everyone rents their timeshares, which is all we have done. Any information on what they are doing here?


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## Jan M. (Sep 28, 2022)

No not everyone rents their timeshares. In the governing documents there's wording that says our ownerships are for our own personal use and for the permitted users on our accounts.

These emails and certified letters have been going out since late winter/early spring 2021.

Some owners who've gotten them and continued to do what Wyndham judged to be more renting are now blocked from adding guest names to any reservations. For 90 days but we've also heard for 6 months.

At the same time last year the Owner Priority lists started and are expected to continue.

All this is being done to suppress renting because previous measures proved ineffective. Next month we will see more measures instituted. 

Of course renting through Extra Holidays is still permitted. Wyndham has made some changes to EH to make it better for owners.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 28, 2022)

There are several threads here on the Wyndham forum about this topic already, here's a link to one:









						Does anyone have a copy of the recent email Wyndham sent to owners alleging commercial use violations?
					

All,  I'm continuing to pursue the issue that came up a few weeks ago whereby certain Wyndham owners started receiving emails alleging commercial use - along with a supporting attachment of the formal letter - and a certified letter sent to the owners in question.  I'm posting an image copy of...




					tugbbs.com
				




Here's a link to search results for commercial use for reference and review:  



			https://tugbbs.com/forums/search/366915/?q=commercial+use&t=post&c[child_nodes]=1&c[nodes][0]=47&c[title_only]=1&o=date


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 28, 2022)

Grocheio said:


> I received a notice warning us that our account had been associated with commercial use and that is prohibited. Surely everyone rents their timeshares, which is all we have done. Any information on what they are doing here?


Just because your salesperson said it was okay, that doesn't mean it's okay.  Think of the salesperson as a liar and Wyndham as the angelic company trying to make sure owners get to stay in their own resorts.  

It's tough, but you gotta do it.  And you have to stop renting because Wyndham is not going to take that competition for their rental business.  

I hate Wyndham, just so you know.


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## troy12n (Sep 28, 2022)

Step 1: stop renting
Step 2: ... that's it, just stop renting

And no, "not everyone rents their timeshares"... only a very small minority of owners do. It goes against their terms of service, so just stop doing it if you don't want to continue receiving these types of letters and potentially get your account frozen


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## lost patience (Sep 29, 2022)

@Jan M.   "Next month we will see more measures instituted. "    I did not see any additional restrictions.  What have I missed?


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## b2bailey (Sep 29, 2022)

I don't have a horse in this race -- but I do remember times I was told during presentations that an owner could choose to rent their units "to help offset" maintenance fees. Is that considered commercial use?


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## paxsarah (Sep 29, 2022)

b2bailey said:


> I don't have a horse in this race -- but I do remember times I was told during presentations that an owner could choose to rent their units "to help offset" maintenance fees. Is that considered commercial use?


If it's not through Extra Holidays, it seems that Wyndham is now considering any outside rentals as commercial.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 29, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> If it's not through Extra Holidays, it seems that Wyndham is now considering any outside rentals as commercial.


Meaning they want the monopoly on rentals.  And their rentals are a *risk for owners*.  You can reserve something, list it with Extra Holidays, and the guest could cancel 24 hours ahead and you get nothing.  And Wyndham makes most of the money.  

I hope Wyndham owners rise up against Wyndham, but they will not do that.


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## troy12n (Sep 29, 2022)

> I don't have a horse in this race -- but I do remember times I was told during presentations that an owner could choose to rent their units "to help offset" maintenance fees. Is that considered commercial use?



I definitely agree that certain salespeople used this tactic *to* *get sales*. 

We all know the salespeople lie and will say whatever they want *to make a sale*

We all know that what the salespeople say does not matter, only what's in the contract. And the contract has had reference to "not for commercial purposes" for quite a long time, it's also been in the user directory. 

As owners, and especially as TUG users, since we know the salespeople lie, we can't hide behind "*well, the salespeople said it was ok*" excuse... we know better, and any of you actually trying to feign ignorance on this topic are being disingenuous. 

There are a handful of people on TUG who probably quit their jobs and made enough to support themselves by doing this. At the expense of other owners. Some of us are extremely glad that Wyndham is/has put an end to this. 

At the expense of a couple of you... tough luck.


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## b2bailey (Sep 29, 2022)

I was thinking about the Wyndham vs. Ron fiasco a few years back. 
He was very discrete -- nondisclosure agreement? -- but it was evident they did not approve of his business model. I don't know how many others were affected -- but it seemed evident that Wyndham would find a way to shut it down. How many years ago was it?


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 29, 2022)

troy12n said:


> Step 1: stop renting
> Step 2: ... that's it, just stop renting
> 
> And no, "not everyone rents their timeshares"... only a very small minority of owners do. It goes against their terms of service, so just stop doing it if you don't want to continue receiving these types of letters and potentially get your account frozen


There are a LOT OF TIMESHARES for rent on Redweek and go-koala.com.  You are living in denial on this one.  Wyndham stopped rentals, yes, but other companies are fine with rentals so far.  There are others who have slowed rentals, but no other company has waged war against owners like Wyndham has.

And maybe when you have to lie TO GET SALES, the product is not worth the paper it's written on, which is true, because I have contracts I am giving away and no takers.  My fees are about the same as CWA on my Fairfield Bay, which I have listed under Bargain Deals.


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## Jan M. (Sep 29, 2022)

lost patience said:


> @Jan M.   "Next month we will see more measures instituted. "    I did not see any additional restrictions.  What have I missed?



They are going to add online tracking to prevent being able to add a guest name to any reservations at resorts/dates on the owner priority lists once we've used our two exceptions. This will prevent what some owners have been doing. They've been adding guest names at the last minute to get around the lists.

We've seen some owners saying they've received "the letter" when you wouldn't think they should have gotten it. I suspect that in some cases what triggered them getting a letter was adding a guest name the day of check in.  Some got a second letter and are suspended for several months from being able to put a guest name on any reservation.

I have no expectation whatsoever that tracking the two exceptions to the priority lists will function well. I've said this before but it bears repeating. When this feature goes live next month owners should add guest names to any reservations in the priority lists as soon as possible. Even if they will be staying there themselves at the same time as their guests. When the system screws up as we all should expect it will, hopefully owner care will be able to assist when this happens. But if owners leave it until last minute the likelihood of getting help won't be as good. You're more likely to get the too bad, so sad response.


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## paxsarah (Sep 29, 2022)

troy12n said:


> As owners, and especially as TUG users, since we know the salespeople lie, we can't hide behind "*well, the salespeople said it was ok*" excuse... we know better


Much as it pains me to agree given the source, I've been thinking this for a long time and it really is true. There's also a difference between a (unusually candid) salesperson of yesteryear saying, "This is something you can do with the system as it works now," be it cancel/rebook, leveraging resale points with VIP for rentals, the double-counted biennial contracts, etc., versus "This is a benefit of ownership." It was "ok" at the time because the system allowed it and nobody at Wyndham was stopping it at the time. Those salespeople didn't know what Wyndham would do a year or ten down the road. And we all know better that if Wyndham explicitly states they can essentially change the written elements of the program at any time, certainly they can change/eliminate the unwritten ones.


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## CO skier (Sep 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> There are others who have slowed rentals, but no other company has waged war against owners like Wyndham has.


2016 - "Diamond Resorts Rental Cease and Desist Order".









						Diamond Resorts Rental Cease and Desist Orders
					

Has anyone in this forum received a Cease and Desist order from Diamond Resorts prohibiting rentals?  If you have received such a letter and have an older contract with Diamond or Sunterra that allows rentals, please send me an email or comment on this post.




					tugbbs.com
				




It appears Wyndham is following Diamond Resorts' lead.

Interval International and RCI prohibit rentals of exchange weeks.  II pursues violators more agressively than RCI.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> There are a LOT OF TIMESHARES for rent on Redweek and go-koala.com.  You are living in denial on this one.  Wyndham stopped rentals, yes, but other companies are fine with rentals so far.  There are others who have slowed rentals, but no other company has waged war against owners like Wyndham has.
> 
> And maybe when you have to lie TO GET SALES, the product is not worth the paper it's written on, which is true, because I have contracts I am giving away and no takers.  My fees are about the same as CWA on my Fairfield Bay, which I have listed under Bargain Deals.



I'd surmise that Wyndham probably has more rental volume than most other timeshare entities as a general rule - but that's just my sense of things based upon feedback I've seen from other timeshare owners posting here on TUG and on other forums that I moderate/admin.  I don't have any hard data that proves this assertion to be clear.  

So it's relative with Wyndham I think.  We still see quite a few Wyndham rental postings on the FB groups for example.  So while Wyndham is certainly targeting what they view as commercial renting activities - it's relative at the same time - at least on some level.  From what I've observed, there does seem to be a link between advertising rentals and being identified as having engaged in commercial rentals.  I would love to know, for example, if someone who only rents through points managers such as Koala - and has never advertised any rentals on any public forums - have actually been tagged and have received commercial use warnings from Wyndham.  

I'm sure as @Jan M. mentioned that Wyndham is also watching other metrics such as applying GCs same day or the day before a reservation in an attempt to skirt the rules for priority blackout dates - but this is simply not going to be possible once the changes that have been announced are put in place to proactively prevent GCs from being used outright via the website.


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## tschwa2 (Sep 29, 2022)

Bluegreen has also been sending out the letters for a few years now but have started to go after those with just a few rentals per year if they are publicly advertising.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Meaning they want the monopoly on rentals.  And their rentals are a *risk for owners*.  You can reserve something, list it with Extra Holidays, and the guest could cancel 24 hours ahead and you get nothing.  And Wyndham makes most of the money.
> 
> I hope Wyndham owners rise up against Wyndham, but they will not do that.



I think that part of the reason Wyndham is discouraging direct owner based rentals and pointing owners toward EH is because EH charges much higher prices than most non-commercial owners do.  Most owners that rent occasionally and aren't running a commercial rental business only charge enough to cover their MFs typically.  Sometimes a bit more sometimes a bit less.  EH charges significantly higher prices in comparison.  This is an important point to make - because if Wyndham charges significantly more - you get 60% of that significantly higher price point when using EH.  So even if EH only rents a portion of your allotment (and EH is making improvements for owners who rent through them), most owners are likely to make the same if not a bit more using EH as opposed to renting only to cover their MFs for example.  Let's run a quick comparison for sake of argument.  Let's say I grab a week for 210k points and submit it to EH vs direct.  Let's say I'm charging $7/1000 were I to rent direct.  Let's also assume EH only rents 5/7 days, at $20/1000.

EH:  $20/1000 * 5 days @ 30k points per day = 150k points = $3000 *0.6 = $1800
Direct:  $7/1000 * 7 days = 210k points = $1470

Using EH renting only a portion of the reservation - the owner renting occasionally actually comes out ahead.  If we discount the EH pricing down from $20/1000 - the breakeven would have to come down to $16.33/1000 through EH to match the $7/1000 that the owner charged directly.  Just one anecdotal example of course.  EH isn't as bad as many people make it out to be when we look at it pragmatically.  EH is really more similar to a points manager like Koala in this respect.


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## rickandcindy23 (Sep 29, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> Bluegreen has also been sending out the letters for a few years now but have started to go after those with just a few rentals per year if they are publicly advertising.


Another bottom-of-the-barrel product.  Hilton cracked down slightly, but they haven't been forceful.  Wyndham is using its power to hurt competition from owners.  That is the truth.  They could be violating the Sherman anti-trust act, but who wants to go after a big company like Wyndham but a few lawyers who are in it for themselves.


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## bnoble (Sep 29, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> They could be violating the Sherman anti-trust act


They might be doing something that is legally actionable, but it is neither through collusion with competitors nor as a result of market power.


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## aams (Sep 29, 2022)

@HitchHiker71 Just wondering how is renting through points manager such as Koala any different from Wyndham's perspective? if I am reading the post correctly, it is suggesting that going thru points manager aka Koala is safer way to rent? Just curious how and why?

Thanks 
Amit



HitchHiker71 said:


> I'd surmise that Wyndham probably has more rental volume than most other timeshare entities as a general rule - but that's just my sense of things based upon feedback I've seen from other timeshare owners posting here on TUG and on other forums that I moderate/admin.  I don't have any hard data that proves this assertion to be clear.
> 
> So it's relative with Wyndham I think.  We still see quite a few Wyndham rental postings on the FB groups for example.  So while Wyndham is certainly targeting what they view as commercial renting activities - it's relative at the same time - at least on some level.  From what I've observed, there does seem to be a link between advertising rentals and being identified as having engaged in commercial rentals.  I would love to know, for example, if someone who only rents through points managers such as Koala - and has never advertised any rentals on any public forums - have actually been tagged and have received commercial use warnings from Wyndham.
> 
> I'm sure as @Jan M. mentioned that Wyndham is also watching other metrics such as applying GCs same day or the day before a reservation in an attempt to skirt the rules for priority blackout dates - but this is simply not going to be possible once the changes that have been announced are put in place to proactively prevent GCs from being used outright via the website.


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## Pink_Warrior (Sep 29, 2022)

I think that the mid-October update in part is designed TO hit the point managers. Many of them (though I think not Koala) log in to owners' accounts and book the reservations as well as enter the GC. 

But with the multi-factor authentification, if every time you log in to Wyndham you need a code via text or email, that will at least slow them down or at least frustrate both them and their owners. Of course EVERYBODY will be frustrated. How many times does the system require a new log in just out of the blue?


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## paxsarah (Sep 29, 2022)

aams said:


> @HitchHiker71 Just wondering how is renting through points manager such as Koala any different from Wyndham's perspective? if I am reading the post correctly, it is suggesting that going thru points manager aka Koala is safer way to rent? Just curious how and why?


I think the main thing is that on Facebook there's usually an easy trail between the owner, their real name, and the dates and location they're renting out, and often the guest's real name as well. On Koala that would all be obscured. So not that Wyndham condones Koala over any other means of offering rentals, but that there's an opacity with Koala that Wyndham seems not to have bothered to crack at this point.


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## CO skier (Sep 29, 2022)

Pink_Warrior said:


> I think that the mid-October update in part is designed TO hit the point managers. Many of them (though I think not Koala) log in to owners' accounts and book the reservations as well as enter the GC.
> 
> But with the multi-factor authentification, if every time you log in to Wyndham you need a code via text or email, that will at least slow them down or at least frustrate both them and their owners. Of course EVERYBODY will be frustrated. How many times does the system require a new log in just out of the blue?


I am under the impression that owners must turn over their log-in credentials to the points managers.  If that is true, the points managers could and would change the email contact to their email address and receive the code via email.

If I were a points manager, that is how I would run my business and that is what would be in my contract with those for whom I would manage their account.

Wyndham recently converted WorldMark to MFA.  I have had to use a code only once -- when the website system changed months and months ago.


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## HitchHiker71 (Sep 29, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I am under the impression that owners must turn over their log-in credentials to the points managers. If that is true, the points managers could and would change the email contact to their email address and receive the code via email.
> 
> If I were a points manager, that is how I would run my business and that is what would be in my contract with those for whom I would manage their account.
> 
> Wyndham recently converted WorldMark to MFA. I have had to use a code only once -- when the website system changed months and months ago.



That is not how Koala works for example. Their system doesn’t require any owner to give their login credentials. Koala simply serves as a broker between the seller and the buyer for requested vacations. I know a few other pints managers who take the same approach that Koala does just using private FB groups to facilitate the process instead of a website. Having to hand over creds, while popular in the past, has become an outdated concept nowadays.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jan M. (Sep 29, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I am under the impression that owners must turn over their log-in credentials to the points managers.  If that is true, the points managers could and would change the email contact to their email address and receive the code via email.
> 
> If I were a points manager, that is how I would run my business and that is what would be in my contract with those for whom I would manage their account.
> 
> Wyndham recently converted WorldMark to MFA.  I have had to use a code only once -- when the website system changed months and months ago.



There's a Tugger who was blocked from adding guest names on their Wyndham account and suspended from RCI. He was doing third party rentals and used his email and phone number on the RCI guest confirmations. I wondered if the owners whose stays he rented to other people got a warning or suspension too.

Wyndham is tracking things and the same email and/or phone number on multiple accounts will flag those accounts.

From what I've observed owners who use point managers tend to be oblivious to what's going on with Wyndham. It's a rude awakening when they get their letter.

If this change also hurts the point managers I'm sure Wyndham will count that as a win. However we've heard of multiple incidents of someone accessing accounts that have little activity and making reservations that were rented out unbeknownst to the owners. Wyndham handled it very promptly and aggressively when it was discovered and reported to them. Clearly greater account security is warranted.


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## CO skier (Sep 30, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> That is not how Koala works for example. Their system doesn’t require any owner to give their login credentials. Koala simply serves as a broker between the seller and the buyer for requested vacations. I know a few other pints managers who take the same approach that Koala does just using private FB groups to facilitate the process instead of a website. Having to hand over creds, while popular in the past, has become an outdated concept nowadays.


Nevertheless, the point is the same -- multi-factor authentication is probably not intended as and probably will not be a deterrent to mega-businesses.


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## ronparise (Oct 1, 2022)

[


troy12n said:


> There are a handful of people on TUG who probably quit their jobs and made enough to support themselves by doing this. At the expense of other owners.




how is it that  one owner making reservations with their points, is done at the expense of other owners. 


Im sitting in a Wyndham timeshare now, with both electricity and running water  (my house has neither today, thanks to Hurricane Ian)  A wyndham timeshare owner made that reservation, with their points and named me as their guest. 

What kind of logic brings you to the conclusion that this was done at your expense?. . I dont understand it, but just to be safe...Thank you. and Let me know what I owe you.


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## jules54 (Oct 6, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I think the main thing is that on Facebook there's usually an easy trail between the owner, their real name, and the dates and location they're renting out, and often the guest's real name as well. On Koala that would all be obscured. So not that Wyndham condones Koala over any other means of offering rentals, but that there's an opacity with Koala that Wyndham seems not to have bothered to crack at this point.



Must be a pretty easy trail from TUG and EBay also.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 6, 2022)

Anyone who wants to can write to the Florida AG and tell them what they want to tell them about promises made and broken. 

We are moving on from Wyndham.  It's just far more worry than I can do in my old age.  My daughter-in-law just asked me about getting Glacier Canyon in January for her best friend and her kids.  I had to tell her I cannot get anything because I cannot add guests.  They can rent a hotel room.


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## paxsarah (Oct 6, 2022)

jules54 said:


> Must be a pretty easy trail from TUG and EBay also.


I mean, my own name is not that hard to track down, and there are a handful of people here whose real names I know because they’re in the Facebook groups, but a TUG or especially an eBay screen name is definitely a rockier trail to follow.


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## chapjim (Oct 6, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I mean, my own name is not that hard to track down, and there are a handful of people here whose real names I know because they’re in the Facebook groups, but a TUG or especially an eBay screen name is definitely a rockier trail to follow.



I am/was chapjim on every listing site except RedWeek.com and I'm Jim C. there.  I did not try to do anything to make tracking difficult.  Didn't think there was a reason to and still don't.  My use of guest confirmations told all the story that needed to be told.


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## bnoble (Oct 6, 2022)

I always use some obvious variant of my real name on the Interwebs. Unless someone has _extraordinarily _good operational security, they are probably incapable of being anonymous if someone is interested in finding them.

I know what good opsec looks like, and I also know that I don't have it.


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## paxsarah (Oct 6, 2022)

bnoble said:


> I know what good opsec looks like, and I also know that I don't have it.


No, but if you have John Realname posting rentals in a FB group, and John1962 posting rentals on Tug or eBay, I've got a pretty good idea who Wyndham's going to go after first before they take the time to connect the dots to find the other one. It doesn't have to be good opsec in this situation, just obscured enough for Wyndham not to bother.


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## CO skier (Oct 6, 2022)

ronparise said:


> how is it that  one owner making reservations with their points, is done at the expense of other owners.
> 
> 
> Im sitting in a Wyndham timeshare now, with both electricity and running water  (my house has neither today, thanks to Hurricane Ian)  A wyndham timeshare owner made that reservation, with their points and named me as their guest.
> ...


There is an obvious, logical difference between someone booking time in a premium resort/time at 13 months for a rental that is then no longer available for an owner to book, and someone booking " extreme leftovers" that are just sitting in inventory a couple weeks or less before arrival, like your hurricane example.


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## RENTER (Oct 6, 2022)

Once again, I caught Wyndham sales agents telling people that they can pay for VIP by renting. Also found people renting from other owners. I mentioned this recently when I observed this in Myrtle Beach. Now again down in Florida. I am down here handling storm damage claims, and I am staying at one of the resorts. Once again, another renter came up to me and asked me if I was an owner. When I told him yes, he told me what the salesperson said about renting. I told him the salesperson was lying and I referred him to the debates here. I also discovered something that supports my theory that this is not about helping those who say they cannot find a vacation but that it is about renters taking business from Extra Holidays. I am not going to be able to stay in one place long because of lack of availability so I have to move around. I have been booking rooms at the Marriott Residence Inn and they want over $500 a night for a studio hotel room. I booked them for free with my hotel credit card points. But I can get a 2 bedroom at a Wyndham Resort for $100 a night which is the cost of my maintenance fees for those points. This is not because of the storm inflating prices because people need a place to stay. When I was renting, I was consistently charging less than the hotels. Now that Extra Holidays is eliminating the competition, I am sure they are betting on they can replace the extra money I was giving them. Since I filed for an extension, I just did my tax return before I left, and my profit went to them by the way of guest pass fees and points protection. I made enough to cover my maintenance fees and final payments on my loan.


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## CO skier (Oct 7, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I also discovered something that supports my theory that this is not about helping those who say they cannot find a vacation but that it is about renters taking business from Extra Holidays.


A counterpoint to your theory is that Extra Holidays cannot rent time during Owner Priority Dates.


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## comicbookman (Oct 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> There is an obvious, logical difference between someone booking time in a premium resort/time at 13 months for a rental that is then no longer available for an owner to book, and someone booking " extreme leftovers" that are just sitting in inventory a couple weeks or less before arrival, like your hurricane example.



The difference is not obvious nor logical.  The booking is made by an owner.  they are the same.


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## Rolltydr (Oct 7, 2022)

comicbookman said:


> The difference is not obvious nor logical.  The booking is made by an owner.  they are the same.


No, they aren’t. One is against the rules because it can be commercial use by advertising and renting units to non-owners, thereby, preventing paying owners from using those units. The other is being humanitarian during a natural disaster. They aren’t even close to the same.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 7, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Once again, I caught Wyndham sales agents telling people that they can pay for VIP by renting. Also found people renting from other owners. I mentioned this recently when I observed this in Myrtle Beach. Now again down in Florida. I am down here handling storm damage claims, and I am staying at one of the resorts. Once again, another renter came up to me and asked me if I was an owner. When I told him yes, he told me what the salesperson said about renting. I told him the salesperson was lying and I referred him to the debates here. I also discovered something that supports my theory that this is not about helping those who say they cannot find a vacation but that it is about renters taking business from Extra Holidays. I am not going to be able to stay in one place long because of lack of availability so I have to move around. I have been booking rooms at the Marriott Residence Inn and they want over $500 a night for a studio hotel room. I booked them for free with my hotel credit card points. But I can get a 2 bedroom at a Wyndham Resort for $100 a night which is the cost of my maintenance fees for those points. This is not because of the storm inflating prices because people need a place to stay. When I was renting, I was consistently charging less than the hotels. Now that Extra Holidays is eliminating the competition, I am sure they are betting on they can replace the extra money I was giving them. Since I filed for an extension, I just did my tax return before I left, and my profit went to them by the way of guest pass fees and points protection. I made enough to cover my maintenance fees and final payments on my loan.


Write a letter to the FL Attorney General and tell them this, but use paragraphs, please.  The rule is 3-7 sentences per paragraph.  When you change subjects, start a new paragraph. This is tough for me to read.  As a former English teacher, I want to take a red pen to these long-winded paragraphs.

Salespeople are supposedly not representing the interest of Wyndham and its owners. That is my understanding from talking to Wyndham. Wyndham says their salespeople do not have to stop lying to make a sale.  They can lie all they want, as long as they sell.  

I know who the author of lies is.


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 7, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Once again, I caught Wyndham sales agents telling people that they can pay for VIP by renting. Also found people renting from other owners. I mentioned this recently when I observed this in Myrtle Beach. Now again down in Florida. I am down here handling storm damage claims, and I am staying at one of the resorts. Once again, another renter came up to me and asked me if I was an owner. When I told him yes, he told me what the salesperson said about renting. I told him the salesperson was lying and I referred him to the debates here. I also discovered something that supports my theory that this is not about helping those who say they cannot find a vacation but that it is about renters taking business from Extra Holidays. I am not going to be able to stay in one place long because of lack of availability so I have to move around. I have been booking rooms at the Marriott Residence Inn and they want over $500 a night for a studio hotel room. I booked them for free with my hotel credit card points. But I can get a 2 bedroom at a Wyndham Resort for $100 a night which is the cost of my maintenance fees for those points. This is not because of the storm inflating prices because people need a place to stay. When I was renting, I was consistently charging less than the hotels. Now that Extra Holidays is eliminating the competition, I am sure they are betting on they can replace the extra money I was giving them. Since I filed for an extension, I just did my tax return before I left, and my profit went to them by the way of guest pass fees and points protection. I made enough to cover my maintenance fees and final payments on my loan.


The thing that amazes me, or surprises or whatever the right word is, is that so many people seem to think it's okay for the sales organization to continue to run as they do. No integrity. And yet so many will say 'but you didn't read the contract'. I'm beyond expecting Wyndham to ever be honest or have any integrity. We'll always be hearing these crazy lies that the sales department is allowed to spew. I won't even comment on EH and all the rest, I'm in agreement with you, just not in me to beat that dead horse (or any of that herd) any more.


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## chapjim (Oct 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> A counterpoint to your theory is that *Extra Holidays cannot rent time during Owner Priority Dates*.



EH does not currently accept weeks from owners during OPDs but I can't think of anything that would keep Wyndham from renting on EH during OPDs if it chose to do so.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 7, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> The thing that amazes me, or surprises or whatever the right word is, is that so many people seem to think it's okay for the sales organization to continue to run as they do. No integrity. And yet so many will say 'but you didn't read the contract'. I'm beyond expecting Wyndham to ever be honest or have any integrity. We'll always be hearing these crazy lies that the sales department is allowed to spew. I won't even comment on EH and all the rest, I'm in agreement with you, just not in me to beat that dead horse (or any of that herd) any more.



I don't think anyone believes the deceptive sales practices are OK.  I think everyone, at least everyone here on TUG, is well aware of the cognitive dissonance that exists when it comes to deceptive timeshare sales practices.  It's also worth pointing out that this issue is not unique to Wyndham.  I've had many people tell me that Wyndham is no worse, and in some cases better, when compared to other entities such as Diamond, Westgate, etc.  Wyndham is simply the biggest timeshare entity on the block - so we tend to see larger volumes of complaints in line with their larger market share.  Many of the timeshare sales and marketing people cycle through the various timeshare entities over time.  Perhaps someday we will see federal legislation that has a positive impact on tamping down on these types of deceptive sales practices - but I'm not going to hold my breath LOL.  

EDIT:  then again...perhaps there is hope?  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/f...-in-deceptive-sales-practices-lawsuit.344827/


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 7, 2022)

chapjim said:


> EH does not currently accept weeks from owners during OPDs but I can't think of anything that would keep Wyndham from renting on EH during OPDs if it chose to do so.



When we consider that EH doesn't require the use of a GC when renting, technically beyond Wyndham simply choosing to honor not renting via EH during OPDs, there's nothing preventing them from doing so since the OPD centers around the use of GCs primarily.


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## chapjim (Oct 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> When we consider that EH doesn't require the use of a GC when renting, technically beyond Wyndham simply choosing to honor not renting via EH during OPDs, there's nothing preventing them from doing so since the OPD centers around the use of GCs primarily.



There's also nothing that precludes Wyndham from renting restricted weeks on other on-line sites (booking.com, expedia, etc.)


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## ladawgfan (Oct 7, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I'd surmise that Wyndham probably has more rental volume than most other timeshare entities as a general rule - but that's just my sense of things based upon feedback I've seen from other timeshare owners posting here on TUG and on other forums that I moderate/admin.  I don't have any hard data that proves this assertion to be clear.
> 
> So it's relative with Wyndham I think.  We still see quite a few Wyndham rental postings on the FB groups for example.  So while Wyndham is certainly targeting what they view as commercial renting activities - it's relative at the same time - at least on some level.  From what I've observed, there does seem to be a link between advertising rentals and being identified as having engaged in commercial rentals.  I would love to know, for example, if someone who only rents through points managers such as Koala - and has never advertised any rentals on any public forums - have actually been tagged and have received commercial use warnings from Wyndham.
> 
> I'm sure as @Jan M. mentioned that Wyndham is also watching other metrics such as applying GCs same day or the day before a reservation in an attempt to skirt the rules for priority blackout dates - but this is simply not going to be possible once the changes that have been announced are put in place to proactively prevent GCs from being used outright via the website.



Has anyone heard what the new rules regarding guest reservation usage are going to be. It sure would be nice for Wyndham to let owners know what is going to happen instead of waiting until the day of implementation as they have with past guest reservation changes!


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## paxsarah (Oct 7, 2022)

ladawgfan said:


> Has anyone heard what the new rules regarding guest reservation usage are going to be. It sure would be nice for Wyndham to let owners know what is going to happen instead of waiting until the day of implementation as they have with past guest reservation changes!


The impression I get is that the rules will remain the same, the system will simply apply/enforce them automatically. And it’s implied that the list may become more user-friendly. If it’s all implemented properly.


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## ronparise (Oct 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> There is an obvious, logical difference between someone booking time in a premium resort/time at 13 months for a rental that is then no longer available for an owner to book, and someone booking " extreme leftovers" that are just sitting in inventory a couple weeks or less before arrival, like your hurricane example.



The question isnt whether the reservation was made at 13 months, or the day of check in. It’s was the reservation made at the expense of another owner;

either way the reservation was taken from available inventory. Same question, even if taken at 13 months, how is that “at the expense of another owner”

by the way, my wife and i are OK as is the house ,,, thanks for asking


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## ronparise (Oct 7, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> No, they aren’t. One is against the rules because it can be commercial use by advertising and renting units to non-owners, thereby, preventing paying owners from using those units. The other is being humanitarian during a natural disaster. They aren’t even close to the same.





comicbookman said:


> The difference is not obvious nor logical.  The booking is made by an owner.  they are the same.



Boiled down to its essence they are exactly the sam


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## Rolltydr (Oct 7, 2022)

ronparise said:


> Boiled down to its essence they are exactly the sam


I’m sorry about your house, Ron. I hope your power and water are back on soon so you can get back home. I hope you have no other damages.

Boiled down to it’s essence, I believe there is a big difference in a person doing something because it benefits them financially, or otherwise, as opposed to doing something that benefits someone else simply for the satisfaction of doing a good deed for someone.


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## CO skier (Oct 7, 2022)

chapjim said:


> EH does not currently accept weeks from owners during OPDs but I can't think of anything that would keep Wyndham from renting on EH during OPDs if it chose to do so.


If you will post a few examples of Owner Priority Dates for rent through Extra Holidays, now or anytime, I will buy into the Wyndham/Extra Holidays paranoia that Club Wyndham ex-renters try to drum up.


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## lotus921v (Oct 7, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I think the main thing is that on Facebook there's usually an easy trail between the owner, their real name, and the dates and location they're renting out, and often the guest's real name as well. On Koala that would all be obscured. So not that Wyndham condones Koala over any other means of offering rentals, but that there's an opacity with Koala that Wyndham seems not to have bothered to crack at this point.





CO skier said:


> Nevertheless, the point is the same -- multi-factor authentication is probably not intended as and probably will not be a deterrent to mega-businesses.




An owner just posted on Facebook that he got a commercial renting notice despite using koala


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## chapjim (Oct 7, 2022)

CO skier said:


> If you will post a few examples of Owner Priority Dates for rent through Extra Holidays, now or anytime, I will buy into the Wyndham/Extra Holidays paranoia that Club Wyndham ex-renters try to drum up.



I didn't say there were, only that there could be rentals of Owner Priority Dates by Wyndham both on EH and other sites.  Are you going to say that Wyndham can't or won't change what it does?  

This is hardly paranoia.  I think there are abundant reasons to be wary of Wyndham's actions.


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## Sandy VDH (Oct 7, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> An owner just posted on Facebook that he got a commercial renting notice despite using koala



wonder if they were putting up a listing, or if they were fulfilling a request?


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## paxsarah (Oct 7, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> An owner just posted on Facebook that he got a commercial renting notice despite using koala


I saw that too. It’s still probably why they were mailing Facebook renters back in May/June, but Koala only now. (At least when it comes to low-volume renters who otherwise wouldn’t have GC patterns that are unusual for non-renters. I would guess high-volume GC users draw attention to themselves in other ways.)


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## CO skier (Oct 7, 2022)

chapjim said:


> I think there are abundant reasons to be wary of Wyndham's actions.


For those who rent Club Wyndham vacations, of course.

For everyday owners who just want to take their family on vacation, Wyndham's actions have made it easier to book prime vacation times without having to compete against the commmercial renters.  There were a number of posts about how much easier it was to book 3 and 4 bedroom units after automatic upgrades eliminated the cancel/rebook abuses.  There were also similar posts at that time about how it was all a conspiracy to benefit Extra Holidays.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 7, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> I saw that too. It’s still probably why they were mailing Facebook renters back in May/June, but Koala only now. (At least when it comes to low-volume renters who otherwise wouldn’t have GC patterns that are unusual for non-renters. I would guess high-volume GC users draw attention to themselves in other ways.)



Given everyone sets the email for the GC to the exact same email address whenever using Koala - it’s pretty easy for Wyndham to determine when Koala is being used. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## am1 (Oct 7, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I definitely agree that certain salespeople used this tactic *to* *get sales*.
> 
> We all know the salespeople lie and will say whatever they want *to make a sale*
> 
> ...


Wyndham should have had a better control of their sales people.  Anyone who purchased because of it and see thousands of rentals should get a full refund.  
Thankfully Wyndham first decided to pay people to leave at the remaining owners expense.  

I guess you are against capitalism As well.


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 7, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> An owner just posted on Facebook that he got a commercial renting notice despite using koala


So much guessing and speculation. The wonderful world of Wyndham. I'm thinking I saw the same post, and they said they were only using koala (something to that affect) and yet...they did post rentals on FB. So... we are still left to guess what Wyndham really does look at and what the parameters are. Regardless, Wyndham's mission is accomplished. I say Wyndham is likely the biggest pot stirrer of them all.


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## am1 (Oct 8, 2022)

chapjim said:


> I am/was chapjim on every listing site except RedWeek.com and I'm Jim C. there.  I did not try to do anything to make tracking difficult.  Didn't think there was a reason to and still don't.  My use of guest confirmations told all the story that needed to be told.


I was Wyndhamrentals on eBay.  I think that was my first cease and desist.


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## am1 (Oct 8, 2022)

CO skier said:


> There is an obvious, logical difference between someone booking time in a premium resort/time at 13 months for a rental that is then no longer available for an owner to book, and someone booking " extreme leftovers" that are just sitting in inventory a couple weeks or less before arrival, like your hurricane example.


Why not first come first serve? Someone booking at 13 months actually owns at that resort. And either way I was able to do what I did and in the end went to the pay window and collected some of your maintenance fees.


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## Jan M. (Oct 8, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> An owner just posted on Facebook that he got a commercial renting notice despite using koala



The ONLY way renting is now permitted is through Extra Holidays.


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## GrandmaGail (Oct 11, 2022)

I just received the Rule Violation Letter regarding commercial use, and reading through this thread of messages, I’m confused as to why I got the notice.  I use a lot of GCs mainly for friends and family as I can’t travel as much any more but I don’t advertise or use any service.  I do receive money to cover maintenance fees from a couple of my friends who live in resort areas who have their friends and family visit frequently.  Could it be that on these GCs I use the friend’s email address on these reservations?


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## tschwa2 (Oct 11, 2022)

GrandmaGail said:


> I just received the Rule Violation Letter regarding commercial use, and reading through this thread of messages, I’m confused as to why I got the notice.  I use a lot of GCs mainly for friends and family as I can’t travel as much any more but I don’t advertise or use any service.  I do receive money to cover maintenance fees from a couple of my friends who live in resort areas who have their friends and family visit frequently.  Could it be that on these GCs I use the friend’s email address on these reservations?


My guess is that either upon check in or during a sales presentation they asked your guests how they booked and they probably said they rented or rented from a friend.   I personally just go with the "my friend is an owner and they booked it for me" without any further explanation about who paid for what or how much.


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## GrandmaGail (Oct 11, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> My guess is that either upon check in or during a sales presentation they asked your guests how they booked and they probably said they rented or rented from a friend.   I personally just go with the "my friend is an owner and they booked it for me" without any further explanation about who paid for what or how much.


Thanks, that is good advice.  But I’m concerned about my future reservations now that my account has been identified in violation of policy.  Any advice about what to do at this point?


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## troy12n (Oct 12, 2022)

> I just received the Rule Violation Letter regarding commercial use, and reading through this thread of messages, I’m confused as to why I got the notice.  I use a lot of GCs mainly for friends and family as I can’t travel as much any more but I don’t advertise or use any service.  I do receive money to cover maintenance fees from a couple of my friends who live in resort areas who have their friends and family visit frequently.  Could it be that on these GCs I use the friend’s email address on these reservations?



I mean... you are renting. I don't understand the surprise.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

I agree that ARP is use that shouldn't be stopped or curtailed.  After all, that is the deed that you own. 

Anyone getting the letter that feels it was a betrayal by Wyndham's promises at the sales presentation should write a letter to the Florida AG.  If the AG was inundated with hundreds of letters about this, perhaps they will do something.  It cannot hurt. 

I have given away quite a bit of our ownerhip so far.  Looking forward to a 2023 with a lot less maintenance fees.  And no, I am not giving away my Bali Hai or Shearwater.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 12, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I mean... you are renting. I don't understand the surprise.


But is it "commercial use"?


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## troy12n (Oct 12, 2022)

If you are making money, then yes. I got the impression this was "several", which my impression was that the person was using a majority of their points to make money, rather than do vacations. I've only used a handful of GC's in my entire ownership, and never asked for, or accepted money for them. But yeah, if you are making money, and using a majority of your points to rent, that seems pretty commercial. 

If it walks like a duck... and quacks like a duck... maybe it's a duck


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## dioxide45 (Oct 12, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> My guess is that either upon check in or during a sales presentation they asked your guests how they booked and they probably said they rented or rented from a friend.   I personally just go with the "my friend is an owner and they booked it for me" without any further explanation about who paid for what or how much.


The problem is that you can't control what other people will say.


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## SueDonJ (Oct 12, 2022)

I think at this point I'd expect that Wyndham is reviewing all accounts that have reservations with a certain number of guest certs attached to them. If I were someone like @GrandmaGail and all of my certs were for family and friends with compensation not exceeding my costs, I'd pick up the phone and call Wyndham's legal dept to learn straight from the horse's mouth whether or not my pattern is one that they intended to snare in their net. And if not, I'd ask them what I or they can do to prevent the unnecessary anxiety over it.


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## dioxide45 (Oct 12, 2022)

troy12n said:


> If you are making money, then yes. I got the impression this was "several", which my impression was that the person was using a majority of their points to make money, rather than do vacations. I've only used a handful of GC's in my entire ownership, and never asked for, or accepted money for them. But yeah, if you are making money, and using a majority of your points to rent, that seems pretty commercial.
> 
> If it walks like a duck... and quacks like a duck... maybe it's a duck


Not so sure it "walks like a duck". The indicated they use a lot of GCs, but only get compensation to cover fees from a couple friends. If we take that at face value, it certainly doesn't sound like they are making money. Blanket statements don't really help here.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

GrandmaGail said:


> I just received the Rule Violation Letter regarding commercial use, and reading through this thread of messages, I’m confused as to why I got the notice.  I use a lot of GCs mainly for friends and family as I can’t travel as much any more but I don’t advertise or use any service.  I do receive money to cover maintenance fees from a couple of my friends who live in resort areas who have their friends and family visit frequently.  Could it be that on these GCs I use the friend’s email address on these reservations?



What exactly do you mean by "mainly" for friends and family?  If you have _ever _advertised anywhere, such as on a Wyndham Facebook group, or used a third party points manager, or a service such as Koala, then it's likely Wyndham will pick up on it these days.  Maybe not right away, but eventually - as appears to have been the case here.  Wyndham has no way to determine if anyone actually paid you - unless they explicitly ask the person checking in if they paid the owner for the reservation.  I've not heard yet of Wyndham explicitly asking about payment - but I've heard many times on multiple forums/groups that Wyndham asks if the person named on the GC actually knows the owner who made the reservation - and if the person says yes - then in some cases they will actually then challenge the person to name the actual owner - because it's listed right on their check-in screen (after all - if that person is truly friends/family - then they should easily be able to name the owner).  In other words, it's not good enough to just lie and say "yeah he or she is a friend of mine," any longer, as Wyndham is getting more explicit with their questions when guests are checking into the resorts.


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## bnoble (Oct 12, 2022)

I don't think the "I don't make any money doing this" argument matters--at least, it doesn't appear to matter to Wyndham.

What appears to matter is whether or not you are truly doing this for *friends and family*---as in, specific people with whom you had some sort of prior relationship before you considered naming those specific people on a GC. That would be the criterion I would use in thinking about whether or not I was willing to use a GC.

So, if I were thinking about who I would be willing to name on a GC, "someone I met through Koala" isn't one of those people. "People I _don't_ know who visit people I _do_ know who live in resort areas" also aren't those people. I _would_ be willing to name those friends who live in resort areas, and as long as they are the ones checking in for the unit, who else stays there doesn't really matter---those people are my friends, I knew them before I considered letting them use my membership, and I am letting them do so.


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## troy12n (Oct 12, 2022)

> Anyone getting the letter that feel it was a betrayal by Wyndham's promises at the sales presentation should write a letter to the Florida AG.  If the AG was inundated with hundreds of letters about this, perhaps they will do something.  It cannot hurt.



Oh, give it a rest... you say I sound like a broken record? 

I assure you the Florida AG (and the entire Florida Republican party) receives more money in campaign contributions from Wyndham than the "2 or 3 affected parties" who would complain. Plus they have legitimate real cases affecting Floridians (you aren't a Floridian, i'm guessing... I am) to be working on. As a Florida resident, I would feel *betrayed* (see what I did there) if they wasted their time doing what you suggest


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

troy12n said:


> Oh, give it a rest... you say I sound like a broken record?
> 
> I assure you the Florida AG (and the entire Florida Republican party) receives more money in campaign contributions from Wyndham than the "2 or 3 affected parties" who would complain. Plus they have legitimate real cases affecting Floridians (you aren't a Floridian, i'm guessing... I am) to be working on. As a Florida resident, I would feel *betrayed* (see what I did there) if they wasted their time doing what you suggest



I respectfully disagree with you.  Holding any company accountable for fundamentally deceptive sales practices isn't a bad thing - while we like to state that the written contract is the only thing that matters - the fact is that oral contracts also matter - so what is said cannot be ignored.  Therefore, this topic is certainly something that should get the attention of state AGs as part of an overall solution to tamping down on this type of bad business practice.  It is no secret the cognitive dissonance that is practiced by the vast majority of timeshare sales organizations as compared to their customer service and resort management organizations - and big picture - this type of thing has to come to an end one way or another.  Wyndham is among them.

@TUGBrian recently posted this article highlighting exactly this outcome for another smaller timeshare entity:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/f...-in-deceptive-sales-practices-lawsuit.344827/

If this type of case can be won in a court of law as above, then it starts to set a precedent - and that precedent is potentially very important big picture.  We want to see more of these types of legal wins - not less.  So with this in mind, I agree with the sentiment expressed by @rickandcindy23 - especially given many of these sales made are to people over the age of 62 - which brings into specific focus elder abuse laws.  Until we hold the timeshare companies accountable for their bad business sales practices - nothing is going to change - and a part of that accountability is bringing suits against these companies - and having state AGs take a serious look at the elder abuse aspects and the deceptive sales practices is a mandatory part of bringing change to a market segment that is ripe for such change for many reasons.


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## grupp (Oct 12, 2022)

am1 said:


> Wyndham should have had a better control of their sales people.  Anyone who purchased because of it and see thousands of rentals should get a full refund.
> Thankfully Wyndham first decided to pay people to leave at the remaining owners expense.
> 
> I guess you are against capitalism As well.



I am not a Wyndham owner, but occasionally follow these threads. From what have have read it appears with the Wyndham changes that the so called "Mega Renter' are either selling or giving back to Wyndham millions of points. I assume that Wyndham will be reselling the points in the future, but who pays the annual fees on those points while these points are waiting to be resold?

Or is it set up in such a way that it doesn't matter.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

From the lawsuit posted by TUGBrian:

"*What's concerning for consumers is that business models like these, that are intentionally built to take advantage of good people, are not unique to FantaSea – and in fact, there are many resorts in the timeshare space that are even more egregious in their deceptive practices," Solseng said. "I don't recommend that anyone attend a timeshare presentation, no matter how much they entice you with gifts."  *


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I think at this point I'd expect that Wyndham is reviewing all accounts that have reservations with a certain number of guest certs attached to them. If I were someone like @GrandmaGail and all of my certs were for family and friends with compensation not exceeding my costs, I'd pick up the phone and call Wyndham's legal dept to learn straight from the horse's mouth whether or not my pattern is one that they intended to snare in their net. And if not, I'd ask them what I or they can do to prevent the unnecessary anxiety over it.


Part of the problem with Wyndham is that they will not ever tell us a number of rentals that we are allowed.  It's arbitrary.


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## SueDonJ (Oct 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Part of the problem with Wyndham is that they will not ever tell us a number of rentals that we are allowed.  It's arbitrary.


I get that. They're looking at patterns rather than numbers. But there is a difference between owners who effectively give away their usage to friends and family for zero profit and owners who make a profit by renting their usage to strangers, and apparently Wyndham is using the guest cert data to mine for rental businesses. If ever a suit is filed and Wyndham comes out on the losing end that's when I'd expect to possibly see them pick a number, but certainly not before.

Normally I'd never suggest that somebody pick up the phone and call Legal. For anything! That's a very quick and dirty way to put yourself in the spotlight uninvited. But in @GrandmaGail's case she's effectively been invited by the letter she received and so if I were in her shoes using guest certs with no profit being generated, I'd give it a try. She can stick to asking questions about how the issue affects only her ownership, and she's free to end the call if it appears that they're mining more information from her.


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 12, 2022)

grupp said:


> I am not a Wyndham owner, but occasionally follow these threads. From what have have read it appears with the Wyndham changes that the so called "Mega Renter' are either selling or giving back to Wyndham millions of points. I assume that Wyndham will be reselling the points in the future, but who pays the annual fees on those points while these points are waiting to be resold?
> 
> Or is it set up in such a way that it doesn't matter.


I could be wrong, but, I think it works something like this:
1) you commit to giving your points back to Wyndham, if you have any reservations booked they are cancelled, you keep paying maintenance on your ownership until the transfer is complete (can take months, 2-6 is my guess)
2) once Wyndham owns them they can (and will) try to resell for full cost
3) I think whilst in Wyndham's hands they can then use those points to book and rent (a very gray area, this is my guess)


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

grupp said:


> I am not a Wyndham owner, but occasionally follow these threads. From what have have read it appears with the Wyndham changes that the so called "Mega Renter' are either selling or giving back to Wyndham millions of points. I assume that Wyndham will be reselling the points in the future, but who pays the annual fees on those points while these points are waiting to be resold?
> 
> Or is it set up in such a way that it doesn't matter.



Assuming the owner doesn't sell to another third party - and utilizes either Wyndham Certified Exit or Wyndham acquires the points sold on the secondary market through a buyer that is indirectly representing Wyndham as the buyer - then Wyndham can determine within the confines of the founding trust documents what they want to do with the points recovered.  In general, it is assumed that Wyndham pays the MFs for resale points acquired back to the HOAs so long as they are holding those points - either for future sale to a retail customer - or for rental purposes.  There's a bit of gray in the wording of the actual founding trust documents at least based upon my own analysis - so I'm not entirely certain that Wyndham actually ends up paying the MFs in every case - but I know if Wyndham chooses to utilize those points for rentals through EH - then they pay the MFs for those points at least.  The going theory is that the sales and marketing division will acquire blocks of inventory for sale periodically - at which point the sales and marketing division then pays the MFs for those points until they are actually sold to a retail buyer.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I get that. They're looking at patterns rather than numbers. But there is a difference between owners who effectively give away their usage to friends and family for zero profit and owners who make a profit by renting their usage to strangers, and apparently Wyndham is using the guest cert data to mine for rental businesses. If ever a suit is filed and Wyndham comes out on the losing end that's when I'd expect to possibly see them pick a number, but certainly not before.
> 
> Normally I'd never suggest that somebody pick up the phone and call Legal. For anything! That's a very quick and dirty way to put yourself in the spotlight uninvited. But in @GrandmaGail's case she's effectively been invited by the letter she received and so if I were in her shoes using guest certs with no profit being generated, I'd give it a try. She can stick to asking questions about how the issue affects only her ownership, and she's free to end the call if it appears that they're mining more information from her.



The letter received has been blessed directly by Wyndham legal - I validated this assertion with Wyndham myself.  The letter has follow up phone numbers and/or an email address to use if the owner feels that they have been targeted unfairly and/or takes issue with anything in the letter.  Oftentimes it takes weeks for anyone to get a response to emails however, and sometimes the owners don't actually  receive any response (or at least not that they are willing to admit to on a public forum).  I know for a fact that Wyndham is not going to release any "rules of engagement" for renting, as that would basically guarantee that existing commercial renters would then know exactly what to do to "fly under the radar" once that were to happen.  Not going to happen.  I've asked this question on more than one occasion.  As you said - they aren't going to do so unless they are compelled to do so legally - and if they are compelled to do so - be careful what you wish for - that could spell the end of GCs altogether.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I get that. They're looking at patterns rather than numbers. But there is a difference between owners who effectively give away their usage to friends and family for zero profit and owners who make a profit by renting their usage to strangers, and apparently Wyndham is using the guest cert data to mine for rental businesses. If ever a suit is filed and Wyndham comes out on the losing end that's when I'd expect to possibly see them pick a number, but certainly not before.
> 
> Normally I'd never suggest that somebody pick up the phone and call Legal. For anything! That's a very quick and dirty way to put yourself in the spotlight uninvited. But in @GrandmaGail's case she's effectively been invited by the letter she received and so if I were in her shoes using guest certs with no profit being generated, I'd give it a try. She can stick to asking questions about how the issue affects only her ownership, and she's free to end the call if it appears that they're mining more information from her.



And how would they ever figure out what is for profit and what is for friends/ family?  This is why I expect more people to get the letters.  I would expect even the smallest of players to get letters eventually.  After all, a lot of small businesses = one big number of reservations that aren't going to have an owner using them.  The rules have to be across the board for fairness.  

Wyndham's Extra Holidays is now the only renter of Wyndham that Wyndham allows, and they make all of the rules. You agree to rent through them, or you suffer the consequences.  And those rentals can be cancelled up to the day of check-in and you still lose all of your points.  Wyndham doesn't protect you from cancellations.  They will also rent just part of your reservation and pay you for only part of it.  Wyndham doesn't care one bit.  They also take their own bloody time to pay the owner of those points.  

We chose not to sue but did write to the Florida AG.  We have had so-so results, mostly just wanted to point out that Wyndham changes rules. I am actively giving away everything we cannot use ourselves.  We have 7 owners on the deeds.  

If you are renting Marriott for a profit, even if it's through a third party, this could happen to you as well, and I think all timeshare owners who rent some of what they own should keep an eye on what is happening with Wyndham.  

I think of Marriott as a much more honest product, however, and no salesperson at Marriott has ever been deceitful during a presentation that I have witnessed personally.  I have experienced it at Westin in an offhand way, but no promises of renting to make money ever came up. 

We attended a Westin presentation where they used a lot of speculation about how Marriott would value developer purchases over our resale purchases.  The salesperson told us how crazy it would be for us to buy resale Westin mandatory SO's because Marriott wouldn't recognize those.  I bought to use, so I didn't care, but it turned out that mandatory options are indeed worthy of the Marriott Chairman's level of ownership.  We own two. That was such a crazy timeshare presentation at Westin Ka'anapali, and the ridiculous assumptions of what would "maybe" happen.  The two salespeople that hounded us to convert our SBP weeks actually told us that their paychecks are from Marriott.  This was 19 months ago.

I also attended a Westin presentation that was all about the old Amex credit card.  It was such a joke, I couldn't take the woman at Mission Hills seriously at all.  And the second guy told us that it would cost over $1,000,000 to convert our SBP to SO's.  I just laughed.  What do I need with millions of SO's?


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## dioxide45 (Oct 12, 2022)

troy12n said:


> Oh, give it a rest... you say I sound like a broken record?
> 
> I assure you the Florida AG (and the entire Florida Republican party) receives more money in campaign contributions from Wyndham than the "2 or 3 affected parties" who would complain. Plus they have legitimate real cases affecting Floridians (you aren't a Floridian, i'm guessing... I am) to be working on. As a Florida resident, I would feel *betrayed* (see what I did there) if they wasted their time doing what you suggest


So you are advocating that it is okay for a  company that greases the right hands gets away with illicit or even illegal business practices?


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## GrandmaGail (Oct 12, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I get that. They're looking at patterns rather than numbers. But there is a difference between owners who effectively give away their usage to friends and family for zero profit and owners who make a profit by renting their usage to strangers, and apparently Wyndham is using the guest cert data to mine for rental businesses. If ever a suit is filed and Wyndham comes out on the losing end that's when I'd expect to possibly see them pick a number, but certainly not before.
> 
> Normally I'd never suggest that somebody pick up the phone and call Legal. For anything! That's a very quick and dirty way to put yourself in the spotlight uninvited. But in @GrandmaGail's case she's effectively been invited by the letter she received and so if I were in her shoes using guest certs with no profit being generated, I'd give it a try. She can stick to asking questions about how the issue affects only her ownership, and she's free to end the call if it appears that they're mining more information from her.


Thanks for the advice.  I have never advertised anywhere as I do not use GCs to make money.  I have never heard of Koala or knew about this user group before I started investigating this threatening letter.  I will consider contacting Wyndham’s legal department as I have had issues with many changes Wyndham has made in the last 10 years or so that have negatively impacted owners.


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## SueDonJ (Oct 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We chose not to sue but did write to the Florida AG.  We have had so-so results, mostly just wanted to point out that Wyndham changes rules.
> 
> If you are renting Marriott for a profit, even if it's through a third party, this could happen to you as well, and I think all timeshare owners who rent some of what they own should keep an eye on what is happening with Wyndham.
> 
> ...


I've mentioned that recently (the last few years) I've used my Marriott ownership for rentals, mostly via a TUGger's rental business but a few times on my own with TUGgers known to me. I have no doubt that Marriott is watching every other company to see how the issue of owner rental businesses is being dissected. It started with Disney (DVC) putting a number to guest certs on reservations years ago and it's continuing with Wyndham lately taking a sledge hammer to some owners' reservations. I fully expect that Marriott will continue the trend but have no idea whether what they implement will fall at either extreme or somewhere in the middle, and no idea if my less-than-five rentals per year will be affected. It's a weird place I'm in because I would like to see the rental businesses be given lower priority/access to at least the high-demand inventory, but that's the inventory I book with my Abound Exchange Points and place with a rental business! So if/when Marriott does whatever it might do, just like everyone else I'll have to look at my ownership and determine if it still makes sense after Marriott changes things.

Like you I haven't been personally on the receiving end of a deceptive Marriott sales presentation but I've never been one of the people who go to them for fun. I have the one sales rep who sold me my Weeks and I've booked with her to get info (she's an owner, too) but it's been quite a while since we've had any contact. I don't begrudge the people who do take advantage of sales presentations, though, and I do believe that many of them are given misinformation by sales reps. I think it's good to get the word out that some Marriott sales reps aren't any more ethical than some who work for other companies.


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## SueDonJ (Oct 12, 2022)

GrandmaGail said:


> Thanks for the advice.  I have never advertised anywhere as I do not use GCs to make money.  I have never heard of Koala or knew about this user group before I started investigating this threatening letter.  I will consider contacting Wyndham’s legal department as I have had issues with many changes Wyndham has made in the last 10 years or so that have negatively impacted owners.


@HitchHiker71 posted after me, #83, and he's much more knowledgeable about this issue and Wyndham. Pick his brain if you feel like you need some guidance on how to approach Legal, and good luck!


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## dioxide45 (Oct 12, 2022)

SueDonJ said:


> I've mentioned that recently (the last few years) I've used my Marriott ownership for rentals, mostly via a TUGger's rental business but a few times on my own with TUGgers known to me. I have no doubt that Marriott is watching every other company to see how the issue of owner rental businesses is being dissected. It started with Disney (DVC) putting a number to guest certs on reservations years ago and it's continuing with Wyndham lately taking a sledge hammer to some owners' reservations. I fully expect that Marriott will continue the trend but have no idea whether what they implement will fall at either extreme or somewhere in the middle, and no idea if my less-than-five rentals per year will be affected. It's a weird place I'm in because I would like to see the rental businesses be given lower priority/access to at least the high-demand inventory, but that's the inventory I book with my Abound Exchange Points and place with a rental business! So if/when Marriott does whatever it might do, just like everyone else I'll have to look at my ownership and determine if it still makes sense after Marriott changes things.
> 
> Like you I haven't been personally on the receiving end of a deceptive Marriott sales presentation but I've never been one of the people who go to them for fun. I have the one sales rep who sold me my Weeks and I've booked with her to get info (she's an owner, too) but it's been quite a while since we've had any contact. I don't begrudge the people who do take advantage of sales presentations, though, and I do believe that many of them are given misinformation by sales reps. I think it's good to get the word out that some Marriott sales reps aren't any more ethical than some who work for other companies.


It is fairly rare that I have heard deceptive sales practices at a Marriott presentation. Usually just the usual exaggerations about how great Explorer offerings are and how easy it is to make reservations. Early on, many years ago, I heard about how it was an investment and would go up in value. I have also been pushed the option of renting. This was the entire focus of a sales presentation at Ocean Watch. How to book reservations with points and how to rent them out on Facebook groups. So if one is to take that advice and start doing that for Marriott only to later clamp down on renting, I could see where one might have a gripe.


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## Jan M. (Oct 12, 2022)

GrandmaGail said:


> I just received the Rule Violation Letter regarding commercial use, and reading through this thread of messages, I’m confused as to why I got the notice.  I use a lot of GCs mainly for friends and family as I can’t travel as much any more but I don’t advertise or use any service.  I do receive money to cover maintenance fees from a couple of my friends who live in resort areas who have their friends and family visit frequently.  Could it be that on these GCs I use the friend’s email address on these reservations?



Afaik it's not just the number of guest confirmations the owner has used but also the percentage of points the owner put guest confirmations on. If you've put guest confirmations on more of your points than you've used for yourself that flags your account for a letter to be sent.

As far as upcoming reservations with guest confirmations on them that's your call if you want to take the risk of not cancelling them. You can safely assume if your guests use those reservations and you make any new reservations with guest names on them then all your reservations with guest names on them will be cancelled. You will also be blocked for adding guest names to any reservations for a minimum of 90 days. 

Once an owner receives the second letter and gets blocked it seems that Owner Strategies is unmoveable in their stance. I haven't heard any owner say what's happen after their guest suspension expired if they went back to using guest confirmations. I believe the letter mentions that their account could be suspended so even the owner couldn't use it for whatever period of time. 

You should consider adding your family members names to just the smallest contract in your account so you don't have to use guest confirmations for those family members. The less appealing alternatives are downsizing your account or getting out of Wyndham altogether.


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## troy12n (Oct 12, 2022)

Sour grapes... you have a vested interest in things staying status quo. The rest of us owners have a vested interest in getting rid of people like you.

As Spock said, "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few... or the one"

The "vast majority of owners" have spoken, and we *applaud* Wyndham for finally taking a stand against renters exploiting loophole after loophole in an effort to make money over allowing owners to use the timeshare they bought.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

GrandmaGail said:


> Thanks for the advice. I have never advertised anywhere as I do not use GCs to make money. I have never heard of Koala or knew about this user group before I started investigating this threatening letter. I will consider contacting Wyndham’s legal department as I have had issues with many changes Wyndham has made in the last 10 years or so that have negatively impacted owners.



If you follow up with legal - I would limit your feedback specifically to any concerns you have about the letter you received and provide actual evidence that contradicts the assertions made in the letter specific to your account and why. 

The broader issues of your observations about rule changes over the past ten years are not going to be germane to the letter nor is the legal department going to be able to do anything about these complaints. If you have broader complaints about what Wyndham is doing with regard to impacting owners - I recommend you send these issues to the CEO whose mailbox is monitored by an entire team at: Michael.brown@travelandleisure.com. 

Feel free to ask any follow up questions if you require any additional guidance - we are all here to help! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GrandmaGail (Oct 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> If you follow up with legal - I would limit your feedback specifically to any concerns you have about the letter you received and provide actual evidence that contradicts the assertions made in the letter specific to your account and why.
> 
> The broader issues of your observations about rule changes over the past ten years are not going to be germane to the letter nor is the legal department going to be able to do anything about these complaints. If you have broader complaints about what Wyndham is doing with regard to impacting owners - I recommend you send these issues to the CEO whose mailbox is monitored by an entire team at: Michael.brown@travelandleisure.com.
> 
> ...


Understood and thanks.


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## am1 (Oct 12, 2022)

troy12n said:


> Sour grapes... you have a vested interest in things staying status quo. The rest of us owners have a vested interest in getting rid of people like you.
> 
> As Spock said, "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few... or the one"
> 
> The "vast majority of owners" have spoken, and we *applaud* Wyndham for finally taking a stand against renters exploiting loophole after loophole in an effort to make money over allowing owners to use the timeshare they bought.


Everyone has equal access to booking reservations.  You want equal outcome not equal opportunity.  Sadly you are not alone. If you cannot plan ahead and book as soon as availability opens up then timeshares are not for you.
I allowed tens of thousands of people to stay at nice places who could not afford timeshares or want to get involved.

One thing for sure is mega renters would always pay their maintenance fees.


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## Jan M. (Oct 12, 2022)

Unfortunately the recession of 2008 hit the resorts hard over the next several years with owners defaulting on their maintenance fees and being foreclosed on. This is what led to the development and introduction of Club Wyndham Access.

I suspect it also led Wyndham to temporarily ignore the renting being done by the growing number of owners we refer to as megarenters. The necessity of keeping the resorts solvent was a more pressing concern. 



am1 said:


> One thing for sure is mega renters would always pay their maintenance fees.



Once the the megarenters usefulness in paying the maintenance fees on the large number of points they owned to supply their business wasn't as needed Wyndham started making changes to force them out of business. Unfortunately their attempts were laughably unsuccessful as some of us here on TUG predicted they would be.

Fairfield then Wyndham aptly demonstrated their incompetence in managing the trust according to the governing documents by failing to enforce the rules. Under Michael Brown's leadership as CEO we've seen a determined and concerted effort to change that.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

am1 said:


> Everyone has equal access to booking reservations.  You want equal outcome not equal opportunity.  Sadly you are not alone. If you cannot plan ahead and book as soon as availability opens up then timeshares are not for you.
> I allowed tens of thousands of people to stay at nice places who could not afford timeshares or want to get involved.
> 
> One thing for sure is mega renters would always pay their maintenance fees.



I disagree with your assertion that it's equal opportunity vs equal outcome. Let's use math to make my point.  If a "mega-renter" holds 10mm points and makes 100 reservations using those 10mm points, assuming 95% of their bookings are for renters and not owners - then that's 9.5mm points used towards non-owner reservations.  If we assume that each reservation, for sake of argument, uses 100k points, that's 10 reservations for each 1mm points used, or 100 reservations across the 10mm points.  That's 95 reservations going to renters, with only a paltry 5 reservations going to actual owners, versus 100 reservations from actual owners using the product for which it was intended (not in violation of the commercial use clauses) if rentals were removed from the equation and those slots/reservations were then available for other owners to consume.  I do agree that timeshares require owners to plan ahead - regardless of whether it's owner vs owner - or owner vs renter - but it is quite obvious that Wyndham wants much less owner based rentals moving forward - as is blatantly obvious from the cease and desist letters that continue to be received to this day.  When rentals are required, what Wyndham clearly wants is more EH based rentals when owners cannot use their points for direct personal use or for close friends and family.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

We booked *everything* within 60 days.  Everyone had the ability to book whatever we were able to book.  Tenacity and patience is required.


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We booked *everything* within 60 days.  Everyone had the ability to book whatever we were able to book.  Tenacity and patience is required.


Not after today, LOL! Waitlist!


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## paxsarah (Oct 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I disagree with your assertion that it's equal opportunity vs equal outcome. Let's use math to make my point.  If a "mega-renter" holds 10mm points and makes 100 reservations using those 10mm points, assuming 95% of their bookings are for renters and not owners - then that's 9.5mm points used towards non-owner reservations.  If we assume that each reservation, for sake of argument, uses 100k points, that's 10 reservations for each 1mm points used, or 100 reservations across the 10mm points.  That's 95 reservations going to renters, with only a paltry 5 reservations going to actual owners, versus 100 reservations from actual owners using the product for which it was intended (not in violation of the commercial use clauses) if rentals were removed from the equation and those slots/reservations were then available for other owners to consume.  I do agree that timeshares require owners to plan ahead - regardless of whether it's owner vs owner - or owner vs renter - but it is quite obvious that Wyndham wants much less owner based rentals moving forward - as is blatantly obvious from the cease and desist letters that continue to be received to this day.  When rentals are required, what Wyndham clearly wants is more EH based rentals when owners cannot use their points for direct personal use or for close friends and family.


It seems like what you're describing is collective outcome - or perhaps more accurately demographic outcome. (And not much about opportunity, really.) If the goal is to have more owners in general occupying units (what I'm calling demographic outcome), then yes - mission accomplished.

But I think when some owners are like, "Yay, the megarenters are out of business!" they're thinking of individual benefit to themselves as an existing owner. However, the only impact I see to existing owners - since there are still just as many points in the system chasing the same limited number of popular reservations - continues to be the possibility that some of those new owners are not very good at using their points compared to the megarenters. It might be a slight bump to opportunity.


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## troy12n (Oct 12, 2022)

I take issue with several aspects of your post, and will break them down individually. 



> Everyone has equal access to booking reservations. You want equal outcome not equal opportunity. Sadly you are not alone. If you cannot plan ahead and book as soon as availability opens up then timeshares are not for you.



This one is probably the one that is the most disingenuous. And here's why. 

All owners have the equal *opportunity* to book stays. That is accurate. But what your statement ignores a couple key things. I believe you failed to state this purposely to make your argument look better... but I digress. 

1. Your average owner gets *one*, and exactly *one* opportunity to book a high demand resort at peak location, at peak demand. What I mean by this is, let's take NOLA Mardi Gras week or Daytona Bike week... your average owner needs to book this at midnight 13 months out. They have one shot because they are competing for this slot against all other owners. Right? 

Well... here comes people like AM1, and Ron, and RickAndCindy, who have 10 million points (9 million of which are resale) and *all* of which had VIP privilages up till recently), and 10 "names" on their account which allows them to make 10 (or whatever arbitrary number of fake names they have listed on the account) simultaneous bookings. 

So your average owner is not just competing against the other owners, they are competing with the slumlord renter crew who is paying a buddy 12 pack of beer to be up at midnight to "book fake vacations" parked in the name of an "owner" who doesn't really exist, while it waits to have a GC assigned to it after the sale. 

2. You ignore the "buying power" that mega renters flexed on the booking scene. This cannot be ignored. You thrown 10 million points at a handful of high demand weeks, and you have made your nut for the year. 

I would really be curious how many actual bookings some of the worst offenders actually used for themselves. 



> I allowed tens of thousands of people to stay at nice places who could not afford timeshares or want to get involved.



And you screwed tens of thousands of owners the ability to book stays they *PAID* for the ability to book.



> One thing for sure is mega renters would always pay their maintenance fees.



Sure, you all paid your MF because the moment you didn't, Wyndham would shut off the gravy train and your revenue stream would halt, and some of you might have to get a job... 

If there's one thing the mega renters all have in common is they refuse to acknowledge they have done anything wrong. The cognitive dissonance that leads to such an ethical failure in one's brain to allow this is just shocking to me.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> Not after today, LOL! Waitlist!


And I am glad of it because I can use it for my own trips.  I am going to be using it often, unless they do charge a fee for more than a certain number, then I will use it only when it's free.  WorldMark's is free.


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## paxsarah (Oct 12, 2022)

troy12n said:


> Well... here comes people like AM1, and Ron, and RickAndCindy, who have 10 million points (9 million of which are resale) and *all* of which had VIP privilages up till recently), and 10 "names" on their account which allows them to make 10 (or whatever arbitrary number of fake names they have listed on the account) simultaneous bookings.


Ron specifically stated years back that because he's only one person, he could only make one reservation at a time. So say 100 people go online to make an ARP reservation, and one of them is Ron. By the time he's ready to make the second reservation, 99 other people have booked. How does one dude make 10 simultaneous bookings?


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I take issue with several aspects of your post, and will break them down individually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I own more like 4.5 million developer points.  Just an FYI.


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> And I am glad of it because I can use it for my own trips.  I am going to be using it often, unless they do charge a fee for more than a certain number, then I will use it only when it's free.  WorldMark's is free.


My understanding is there is a $25 fee, per reservation you accept (via the waitlist).


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## chapjim (Oct 12, 2022)

troy12n said:


> Oh, give it a rest... you say I sound like a broken record?
> 
> I assure you the Florida AG (and the entire Florida Republican party) receives more money in campaign contributions from Wyndham than the "2 or 3 affected parties" who would complain. Plus they have legitimate real cases affecting Floridians (you aren't a Floridian, i'm guessing... I am) to be working on. As a Florida resident, I would feel *betrayed* (see what I did there) if they wasted their time doing what you suggest



Wyndham is a Florida "person."   Granted, not a natural person but a person nevertheless.  The Florida AG should be concerned with fraudulent activity by Florida persons, natural or otherwise


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> My understanding is there is a $25 fee, per reservation you accept (via the waitlist).


What would be great is if I could put in a waitlist and get the match within 60 days and get the discount.  That will really make some people angry on TUG (well, one person will be angry about it).


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> What would be great is if I could put in a waitlist and get the match within 60 days and get the discount.  That will really make some people angry on TUG (well, one person will be angry about it).


Agree, I wonder how that'll work with upgrades. I'm guessing it won't, I don't know how it could. Well... I would never expect Wyndham to put the thought or effort into it nor for their IT to have the skills to implement it successfully.  My guess is the net net on it is we might get a reservation we want, but we won't get the upgrades we might have found doing things the old-fashioned (tenacity and patience) way. Interested in seeing what gets delivered (and making the best of it).


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## troy12n (Oct 12, 2022)

> We booked *everything* within 60 days. Everyone had the ability to book whatever we were able to book. Tenacity and patience is required.



All this is doing is admitting your business model exploited VIP privileges to the extreme. Prompting Wyndham to close that last loophole. 

Congratulations, you helped kill your own golden goose! 

And yet you still cry foul? Amazing... keep it up, every post you make, it weakens whatever perceived position you had even further.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

troy12n said:


> All this is doing is admitting your business model exploited VIP privileges to the extreme. Prompting Wyndham to close that last loophole.
> 
> Congratulations, you helped kill your own golden goose!
> 
> And yet you still cry foul? Amazing... keep it up, every post you make, it weakens whatever perceived position you had even further.


You are an incredibly abusive person.  I am giving away a lot of my contracts, closing many of them myself to save the new owners from paying closing fees.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> My understanding is there is a $25 fee, per reservation you accept (via the waitlist).



Yes, and this has been verified to be a separate/distinct fee apart from any other applicable fees, applied when you accept the waitlisted reservation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> What would be great is if I could put in a waitlist and get the match within 60 days and get the discount. That will really make some people angry on TUG (well, one person will be angry about it).



From what I have loosely gathered - and have yet to verify - is that the waitlist function may not
be available within the discount window. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chapjim (Oct 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> What would be great is if I could put in a waitlist and get the match within 60 days and get the discount.  That will really make some people angry on TUG (well, *one *person will be angry about it).



Wrong.  TWO!!


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## chapjim (Oct 12, 2022)

troy12n said:


> All this is doing is admitting your business model exploited VIP privileges to the extreme. Prompting Wyndham to close that last loophole.
> 
> Congratulations, you helped kill your own golden goose!
> 
> And yet you still cry foul? Amazing... keep it up, every post you make, it weakens whatever perceived position you had even further.



I did a lot of the same thing as Cindy.  I spent hours looking for rentable (i.e., desirable) reservations that I could book at a discount and maybe score an upgrade as well.  It was unlikely that there would be Mardi Gras or Daytona Bike Week reservations but I booked (and rented) a lot of reservations at great resorts at very attractive prices, prices that were less than the small owner's maintenance fees for the same reservation at full price.  "Rent from a VIP" was a signature slogan of a TUGger a few years back as an alternative to buying.

Search the LMR Offered forum with my user ID.  Then explain to me how your little guys were harmed by the reservations I booked inside the discount window.

Alas, we aren't all as righteous as you.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

Sandi Bo said:


> Agree, I wonder how that'll work with upgrades. I'm guessing it won't, I don't know how it could. Well... I would never expect Wyndham to put the thought or effort into it nor for their IT to have the skills to implement it successfully. My guess is the net net on it is we might get a reservation we want, but we won't get the upgrades we might have found doing things the old-fashioned (tenacity and patience) way. Interested in seeing what gets delivered (and making the best of it).



This is why I think the new waitlist function won’t run within the discount window at all - because it will step on the auto-upgrade process. I asked several times about this and didn’t get a comprehensive answer to my inquiries - but my overall sense from what I was told was that the waitlist function won’t be available within the discount window. We will have to wait and see of course. 


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> It seems like what you're describing is collective outcome - or perhaps more accurately demographic outcome. (And not much about opportunity, really.) If the goal is to have more owners in general occupying units (what I'm calling demographic outcome), then yes - mission accomplished.
> 
> But I think when some owners are like, "Yay, the megarenters are out of business!" they're thinking of individual benefit to themselves as an existing owner. However, the only impact I see to existing owners - since there are still just as many points in the system chasing the same limited number of popular reservations - continues to be the possibility that some of those new owners are not very good at using their points compared to the megarenters. It might be a slight bump to opportunity.



What I was trying to point out is that it’s not equal opportunity for all owners - as am1 ascribed - if 95/100 reservations in my example weren’t for owners - they were for renters in reality. That’s not equal opportunity for all owners in my view. 95 owners lost out to 95 renters - all of which were in clear violation of the commercial use policies. 


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## Rolltydr (Oct 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> We booked *everything* within 60 days.  Everyone had the ability to book whatever we were able to book.  Tenacity and patience is required.


Or, you could simply _*follow the rules!*_


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

chapjim said:


> Wrong.  TWO!!


Make that THREE.


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## CO skier (Oct 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> In general, it is assumed that Wyndham pays the MFs for resale points acquired back to the HOAs so long as they are holding those points - either for future sale to a retail customer - or for rental purposes.  There's a bit of gray in the wording of the actual founding trust documents at least based upon my own analysis - so I'm not entirely certain that Wyndham actually ends up paying the MFs in every case -


I do not see room for any gray area when it comes to paying maintenance fees.  Every fixed week, floating week, or Unidivided Interest at a resort is deeded to someone .  That someone is responsible for paying the maintenance fees, otherwise bad debt mounts at the resort.  Wyndham cannot take back any deed and just choose to not pay the maintenance fees associated with a deeded property.

What is optional for Wyndham is paying the maintenance fees that are in arrears prior to the foreclosure.  My resort has a contract whereby Wyndham pays up to $2,000 in foreclosure costs plus the maintenance fees in arrears.

"I'm pleased to report that our agreement with Wyndham continues to significantly reduce our bad debt. The Wyndham Foreclosure Agreement has allowed us to increase our maintenance fee collections and contributions to our reserve account. Every completed foreclosure, account brought current or account deeded back helps us remain solvent in our yearly operational budget and meet our reserve fund allocations."


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## Rolltydr (Oct 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Make that THREE.


*LOL! *


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## Snippy (Oct 12, 2022)

When I rented I only booked within 60 days.   I have gotten rid of several 100k to 500k resale, leaving my developer and 1 resale.  I honestly believe that the competition for the desirable resorts at 13 mo will get way worse!   I never use ARP.   I don't plan that far ahead.  Most of my personal usage I get at discount.   I want my points to stretch a long ways.  I'm a spur of the moment person, but am willing to juggle dates and/or locations so Wyndham works well for me.    I know for a fact that the new owners of my resale contracts are going to use ARP.  They told me so.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I do not see room for any gray area when it comes to paying maintenance fees.  Every fixed week, floating week, or Unidivided Interest at a resort is deeded to someone .  That someone is responsible for paying the maintenance fees, otherwise bad debt mounts at the resort.  Wyndham cannot take back any deed and just choose to not pay the maintenance fees associated with a deeded property.
> 
> What is optional for Wyndham is paying the maintenance fees that are in arrears prior to the foreclosure.  My resort has a contract whereby Wyndham pays up to $2,000 in foreclosure costs plus the maintenance fees in arrears.
> 
> "I'm pleased to report that our agreement with Wyndham continues to significantly reduce our bad debt. The Wyndham Foreclosure Agreement has allowed us to increase our maintenance fee collections and contributions to our reserve account. Every completed foreclosure, account brought current or account deeded back helps us remain solvent in our yearly operational budget and meet our reserve fund allocations."


What resort is saying that?  Is that Pres Villas Grand Palms (formerly known as Presidential Villas at Plantation Resort)?  It was wise of them to choose Wyndham to manage it. They will keep costs down and make sure fees are paid via collections and nasty letters.  I applaud that because fees must be paid, they just have to be.  

What I do not understand is a resort like Pagosa Springs, which has been Fairfield then Wyndham, so it's been in their hands forever, not taking care of every part of that resort.  Some of it is in terrible shape, including Village Point, which has the worst units I have seen at any Wyndham.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 12, 2022)

Rolltydr said:


> Or, you could simply _*follow the rules!*_


So we are following the rules and are getting rid of a bunch of contracts.  I do mean a bunch.  I am doing the closings, so it's not fun.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 12, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> What I do not understand is a resort like Pagosa Springs, which has been Fairfield then Wyndham, so it's been in their hands forever, not taking care of every part of that resort. Some of it is in terrible shape, including Village Point, which has the worst units I have seen at any Wyndham.



Curious - have you stayed at Wyndham’s Shawnee poconos resort before in any of the older sections like Ridge Top, River Village I or II, Depuy, etc.? Wondering how you would compare the older units at Pagosa Springs to the older units at the Shawnee resort…


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## CO skier (Oct 12, 2022)

Snippy said:


> I know for a fact that the new owners of my resale contracts are going to use ARP.  They told me so.


If it is for their own personal vacations, then is that not the purpose of a Vacation Club?


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## 9969hi (Oct 12, 2022)

I am a vip Platinum owner who received the email and certified letter about commercial use  , I have been using about half my points and renting half my points for the past 10 years usually to people who have rented to me before. I don't know what I should do as I can' t  use all my points every year as I own at several other timeshares. Should I sign the letter or call and talk to man mentioned on the email. 

I feel I am being ripped off my Wyndham as I have two recorded conversations where I asked about renting during updates one where I did purchase additional developer points within Wyndham and the salesman said there would not be any problems. I feel the Wyndham is structured that when I purchase a points at a specific resort I was purchasing a share of a real estate property and as a owner I have rights to do what I want with the real estate I purchased. My last purchase was 84000 or Club Wyndham Access which are think are more shaky to use for rentals, but for the timeshare I have specific deeds I believe I have rights to use as my choice since I own part of property. I have given weeks to Extra Holidays to rent and they have rented the Friday and Saturday nights and left me with no income for the other days. This has happen 4 out 4 times I have used extra holidays. 

I think Wyndham needs to think this situation out and I understand  elimiting Maga rental with all there cancel and rebook , 12 names on membership and treat owner that pay their fees and rent to friends as a benefit of the program and we don't need to be caught up in all corporate greed for high profits. I think they need to read their ownership goals over and decide how they treat owners who pay their fees and use the timeshare concept wisely.


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## paxsarah (Oct 12, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> What I was trying to point out is that it’s not equal opportunity for all owners - as am1 ascribed - if 95/100 reservations in my example weren’t for owners - they were for renters in reality. That’s not equal opportunity for all owners in my view. 95 owners lost out to 95 renters - all of which were in clear violation of the commercial use policies.


And I guess my question is, what is it to me whether I missed out on a reservation to a renter or another owner booking for personal use? If the same number of points are chasing the same number of reservations, why do I care, as an individual owner, who got the reservation I missed because I showed up too late? I have the same equal opportunity I always had, but just against different people. It could even be argued that, as we've seen with our TUG renters (as well as those I've seen on FB), that because they tend to book and rent inside the discount window while I tend to book at 10 months, that switching some of those discount-window renters for individual owners who (when they take the time to learn and maximize their ownership) may book *more* often at 10 months, that I lose opportunity now that many renters have been eliminated or scaled down and those contracts have now been sold to small personal owners.

And to be clear, I'm not saying I'm seeing this, but it just makes the point that the total amount of "opportunity," so to speak, in the system remains the same. The best a current owner will see is a slight increase in certain types of opportunity (say inside 60 days) that has to be balanced with a slight decrease in other types of opportunity (say at 10 months). Or vice versa, but who knows. But if the same number of points are chasing the same number of reservations, my opportunity remains the same. So as I said before, it increases the number of owner-occupied units - because it also increased the number of total owners. But it doesn't increase my personal chances of getting a reservation overall.


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## Jan M. (Oct 12, 2022)

9969hi said:


> I am a vip Platinum owner who received the email and certified letter about commercial use  , I have been using about half my points and renting half my points for the past 10 years usually to people who have rented to me before. I don't know what I should do as I can' t  use all my points every year as I own at several other timeshares. Should I sign the letter or call and talk to man mentioned on the email.
> 
> I feel I am being ripped off my Wyndham as I have two recorded conversations where I asked about renting during updates one where I did purchase additional developer points within Wyndham and the salesman said there would not be any problems. I feel the Wyndham is structured that when I purchase a points at a specific resort I was purchasing a share of a real estate property and as a owner I have rights to do what I want with the real estate I purchased. My last purchase was 84000 or Club Wyndham Access which are think are more shaky to use for rentals, but for the timeshare I have specific deeds I believe I have rights to use as my choice since I own part of property. I have given weeks to Extra Holidays to rent and they have rented the Friday and Saturday nights and left me with no income for the other days. This has happen 4 out 4 times I have used extra holidays.
> 
> I think Wyndham needs to think this situation out and I understand  elimiting Maga rental with all there cancel and rebook , 12 names on membership and treat owner that pay their fees and rent to friends as a benefit of the program and we don't need to be caught up in all corporate greed for high profits. I think they need to read their ownership goals over and decide how they treat owners who pay their fees and use the timeshare concept wisely.



Since this has been discussed in length in several threads I'm going to try to keep this brief.

Since you bought developer somewhere in the paperwork you signed there was something saying it wasn't intended for commercial use. Renting is commercial use. The only rights you have are what's in the governing docs as Wyndham as the program manager deems fit to enforce them.

It matters not at all what any sales person told you or any owner. Saying "but the sales person said" will get you absolutely nowhere.

Depending on the state if you didn't have the express permission to record the sales person that was illegal. In Texas it's a felony offense.


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## CO skier (Oct 12, 2022)

It seems to me that _this_ is exactly the purpose of the commercial rental letters


paxsarah said:


> So as I said before, it increases the number of owner-occupied units




... not this:


paxsarah said:


> But it doesn't increase my personal chances of getting a reservation overall.




These are two separate issues that commercial renters and ex-renters want to conflate.

If a policy increases the number of owner-occupied units, that is obviously a win for the _Club_ owners who have an ongoing interest in the Club versus non-owners who stay in a unit and that's it -- no connection to the Club and the other owner/members.


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## Snippy (Oct 12, 2022)

CO skier said:


> If it is for their own personal vacations, then is that not the purpose of a Vacation Club?


My point was directed to a few that are convinced that ending "rentals" will free up tons of availability at 13 months, when I predict it will do the opposite.


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 12, 2022)

I feel like having to file a schedule E on taxes every year was a bigger deterrant for average owners to rent out their excess points than the violation letters were. I'd figure the few extra hundred you'd make in a booking after taxes wouldn't be worth the headache of figuring out how to file a schedule E in the first place. The average person doesn't know how to file the actual 1040 forms and the free federal online programs don't include schedule E, so most people would also just pay the fee to Turbotax or whichever software they use. 

This coming year is the first time the IRS has actually made it impossible to hide commercial rental income over $600.


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## CO skier (Oct 12, 2022)

Snippy said:


> My point was directed to a few that are convinced that ending "rentals" will free up tons of availability at 13 months, when I predict it will do the opposite.


Then they and you have missed the point of the commercial rental letters.  It is not about "availability"; it is about owner-occupied units, just like Owner Priority Dates was not about "availability"; it was about more owners and less renters staying in Club Wyndham resorts during the "best" dates.


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## CO skier (Oct 12, 2022)

Snippy said:


> My point was directed to a few that are convinced that ending "rentals" will free up tons of availability at 13 months, when I predict it will do the opposite.


Could you quote some of those posts, because I looked back on the entire thread and did not see a single post about the "commercial rental" letter "free(ing) up tons of availability at 13 months."


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## tschwa2 (Oct 12, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Then they and you have missed the point of the commercial rental letters.  It is not about "availability"; it is about owner-occupied units, just like Owner Priority Dates was not about "availability"; it was about more owners and less renters staying in Club Wyndham resorts during the "best" dates.


which is used as a sales incentive.  If you want to stay during these times you have to be an owner and can't rent here at those times without being an owner.  I guess it makes some people feel better when they can't book the rooms they want that it is filled with owners and not with renters.


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## CO skier (Oct 12, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> I guess it makes some people feel better when they can't book the rooms they want that it is filled with owners and not with renters.


They feel better because when they "can't book the rooms they want that it is filled with owners", they will not find them for rent on VRBO or AirBnB or Craigslist.


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## CO skier (Oct 12, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> If you want to stay during these times you have to be an owner


Is that not the purpose of a vacation club?  Is that not the purpose of the Owner Priority Booking dates?


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## dioxide45 (Oct 12, 2022)

New thread, same talking points. Nothing new here...


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## am1 (Oct 12, 2022)

9969hi said:


> I am a vip Platinum owner who received the email and certified letter about commercial use  , I have been using about half my points and renting half my points for the past 10 years usually to people who have rented to me before. I don't know what I should do as I can' t  use all my points every year as I own at several other timeshares. Should I sign the letter or call and talk to man mentioned on the email.
> 
> I feel I am being ripped off my Wyndham as I have two recorded conversations where I asked about renting during updates one where I did purchase additional developer points within Wyndham and the salesman said there would not be any problems. I feel the Wyndham is structured that when I purchase a points at a specific resort I was purchasing a share of a real estate property and as a owner I have rights to do what I want with the real estate I purchased. My last purchase was 84000 or Club Wyndham Access which are think are more shaky to use for rentals, but for the timeshare I have specific deeds I believe I have rights to use as my choice since I own part of property. I have given weeks to Extra Holidays to rent and they have rented the Friday and Saturday nights and left me with no income for the other days. This has happen 4 out 4 times I have used extra holidays.
> 
> I think Wyndham needs to think this situation out and I understand  elimiting Maga rental with all there cancel and rebook , 12 names on membership and treat owner that pay their fees and rent to friends as a benefit of the program and we don't need to be caught up in all corporate greed for high profits. I think they need to read their ownership goals over and decide how they treat owners who pay their fees and use the timeshare concept wisely.



You may want to fight them.  Many others could testify that they were told rentals were okay. 

But you want Wyndham to allow the rentals you want but think other rent too much.

Thankfully I did my renting. 4 bedrooms for half the amount of a studio.  50 rooms at a resort at a time.


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## tschwa2 (Oct 12, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Is that not the purpose of a vacation club?  Is that not the purpose of the Owner Priority Booking dates?


Yes to help Wyndham sell more of their product and when owners get tired of owning,  for wyndham to be able to resell the same product again.  And if that doesn't work they will probably relax the rules again and encourage owners to buy more so they can rent it out, etc.  If it didn't benefit Wyndham I doubt they would be enforcing it.  What I see perhaps happing in the future would be for wyndham to come up with a better extra holiday's model that allows most participants to get closer to breaking even when they can't use their points but then turn around and still keep prices high enough as to not discourage people from becoming owners.


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## GrandmaGail (Oct 12, 2022)

My ownership includes a deed for my home resort.  Does this make any difference in how Wyndham views using my points for GCs for my family and friends?


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## chapjim (Oct 12, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Then they and you have missed the point of the commercial rental letters.  It is not about "availability"; it is about owner-occupied units, just like Owner Priority Dates was not about "availability"; it was about more owners and less renters staying in Club Wyndham resorts during the "best" dates.



How can owner occupancy increase unless availability increases?


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## CO skier (Oct 12, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> If it didn't benefit Wyndham I doubt they would be enforcing it.


So much Wyndham paranoia.

Think about how many commercial renters there are -- less than 5% of owners, but they rent millions and billions (collectively) of points.  Who benefits from Owner Priority Dates and commercial renters being suspended?  The other 95%+ of owners.


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## CO skier (Oct 12, 2022)

chapjim said:


> How can owner occupancy increase unless availability increases?


Super simple, for every 1,000 fewer renters during Owner Priority dates, for example, there are 1,000 more vacations "available" for Club owners to take their family on vacation.  It really is as simple as 1+1=2.


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## chapjim (Oct 12, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Super simple, for every 1,000 fewer renters during Owner Priority dates, for example, there are 1,000 more vacations "available" for owners to take their family on vacation.  It really is as simple as 1+1=2.



So there was an increase in availability, which made an increase in owner occupancy possible.  That answers my question.  There won't be an increase in owner occupancy unless there is a corresponding increase in availability.

Thanks!


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## tschwa2 (Oct 12, 2022)

CO skier said:


> So much Wyndham paranoia.
> 
> Think about how many commercial renters there are -- less than 5% of owners, but they rent millions and billions (collectively) of points.  Who benefits from Owner Priority Dates and commercial renters being suspended?  The other 95%+ of owners.


If by commercial renters you mean anyone who rents out at least one unit to someone not on their contract, I think there are a lot more than 5%.  If we put a number on it like more than 10 wyndham guest certs per year and more than 50% of their annual points the number comes down quite a bit.  Sorry but I do think being able to rent out some points and/or reservations on years when you can't use all that you have or being able to rent from other owners on years when you don't have enough points (and can rent for not much more than the MF's) vs the 2X's plus of renting from Wynhdam is a benefit for most owners.  Things happen that using rci or moving points forward won't help and having an option to rent is a good thing.  Wyndham just needs to do it in a way that really benefits owners.


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## CO skier (Oct 12, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> If by commercial renters you mean anyone who rents out at least one unit to someone not on their contract, I think there are a lot more than 5%.  If we put a number on it like more than 10 wyndham guest certs per year and more than 50% of their annual points the number comes down quite a bit.


Then all the more reason for the "commercial rental" letters and the Owner Priority dates to put more Club Wyndham owners on vacation and less non-owners.


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## tschwa2 (Oct 12, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Then all the more reason for the "commercial rental" letters and the Owner Priority dates to put more Club Wyndham owners on vacation and less non-owners.


Yes.  If it makes you happy then it must be great for all of the owners like you.  

And if that is the way they want to run the club then it would benefit everyone if they were very clear that rentals aren't allowed in any circumstances other than using extra holidays and they should disclose the average return per 1000 points when owners use extra holidays, instead of the fairly vague phrase about commercial renting if their goal is to use the policy to make it better for owners.  They should also send out letters to all current members with that information because it certainly hasn't been clear based on the previous enforcement of the policies.


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## CO skier (Oct 13, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> Yes.  If it makes you happy then it must be great for all of the owners like you.


It is, most just do not know enough to know how much the new policies improve their ownership in Club Wyndham.  They just book whatever they find online or by phone.


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## GrandmaGail (Oct 13, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> Yes.  If it makes you happy then it must be great for all of the owners like you.
> 
> And if that is the way they want to run the club then it would benefit everyone if they were very clear that rentals aren't allowed in any circumstances other than using extra holidays and they should disclose the average return per 1000 points when owners use extra holidays, instead of the fairly vague phrase about commercial renting if their goal is to use the policy to make it better for owners.  They should also send out letters to all current members with that information because it certainly hasn't been clear based on the previous enforcement of the policies.


I agree, EVERY OWNER should have to sign this notice, not the few they have singled out because they “think” the owner had been renting for profit.  I am not not renting for profit, but using GCs for family and friends, and I got a notice of violation.


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## Jan M. (Oct 13, 2022)

GrandmaGail said:


> My ownership includes a deed for my home resort.  Does this make any difference in how Wyndham views using my points for GCs for my family and friends?



No, it doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

You're faced with the same options a number of owners have already dealt with months ago or even last year.

1. Add your family members names to the smallest deed/contract in your account. That will greatly reduce the number of points you're using for guests and the number of guest confirmations you're using. You can use any of your points for their reservations and aren't limited to just the points from the deed/contract you add them to. Those family members should pay the maintenance fees on the points for their reservations. That doesn't constitute renting. 

2. Downsize the number of points in your account to what you can reasonably expect to use for yourself and any family members on your account.

Contact Certified Exit to see what your options are. They will take back some or all of what you have. You won't receive any money but what you own may qualify for the limited program. With that they take back what you own and give you three years use of the points. However you can only use the points for anyone on your account. No guest reservations.


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## wed100105 (Oct 13, 2022)

Hmm...I don't think we'll see an increase of availability, I think Wyndham will take those units for themselves. I also think we're going to see issues with maintenance fees getting paid as people dump contracts. I can't imagine that the market to buy timeshares right now is very hot.


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## Jan M. (Oct 13, 2022)

wed100105 said:


> I also think we're going to see issues with maintenance fees getting paid as people dump contracts. I can't imagine that the market to buy timeshares right now is very hot.



With every change since I've belonged to TUG that's impacted VIP owners or renting there's always a lot of "this is going to hurt the resorts and Wyndham." That didn't happen and it won't happen this time either.

The market for selling and buying resale deeds/contracts is cyclical. There are a few times a year that are great for the buyers but not so much for the sellers. There's a year round market for anything with low maintenance fees.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 13, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Super simple, for every 1,000 fewer renters during Owner Priority dates, for example, there are 1,000 more vacations "available" for Club owners to take their family on vacation. It really is as simple as 1+1=2.



And for every renter that receives a cease and desist letter, who then ignores said letter, and then has their GC usage suspended and/or their entire account usage suspended - that results in more availability that then results in more owner occupancy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Melder (Oct 13, 2022)

wed100105 said:


> Hmm...I don't think we'll see an increase of availability, I think Wyndham will take those units for themselves.



Over the last couple of years I certainly have.  I've been able to book where I want, when I want and the unit I want at 10 months.  This wasn't possible a few years ago.  I'd have to settle for less desirable dates / locations.


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## GrandmaGail (Oct 13, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> No, it doesn't make any difference whatsoever.
> 
> You're faced with the same options a number of owners have already dealt with months ago or even last year.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the recap.  Because of my deed, do I have to do a title change with a title company or can I have Wyndham just add family members to my account?  I only have one contract which is a deeded one.  Also I don’t want to give up any points on this contract or turn it back over to Wyndham as my elderly father was duped, pressured, and lied to to take on several contracts to get more points and a more prestigious ownership.  He eventually had one contract foreclosed on and transferred one to me.  He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, and I don’t want that money spent for nothing.  And now with this unwarranted threat from Wyndham I am afraid to use any GCs.


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## bnoble (Oct 13, 2022)

Melder said:


> Over the last couple of years


I think it's very hard to compare post-3/2020 to pre-3/2020, for all sorts of reasons.


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## am1 (Oct 13, 2022)

GrandmaGail said:


> Thanks for the recap.  Because of my deed, do I have to do a title change with a title company or can I have Wyndham just add family members to my account?  I only have one contract which is a deeded one.  Also I don’t want to give up any points on this contract or turn it back over to Wyndham as my elderly father was duped, pressured, and lied to to take on several contracts to get more points and a more prestigious ownership.  He eventually had one contract foreclosed on and transferred one to me.  He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, and I don’t want that money spent for nothing.  And now with this unwarranted threat from Wyndham I am afraid to use any GCs.


The money that was fleeced from him is gone.  Wyndham has the owners fighting each other and not them.  Thats the way the powers that be like it.


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## GlennBenscoter (Oct 15, 2022)

Looking at vrbo this morning I see Bonnet Creek Dec 14-17  2br or larger over 151 ads for  Resort Rental Pros.


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 15, 2022)

Do you think that is Wyndham? I'm not familiar with Resort Rental Pros.  I also think it's common to see listings on VRBO that aren't necessary available. They won't be instant bookings and if you inquire, it's not available. Did you try to book?  Although I also have a hard time believing 151 rooms for anyone, that seems like an integrity issue in itself.

Also, I haven't checked, but I bet it's on Extra Holidays, too?


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## GlennBenscoter (Oct 15, 2022)

I was wondering if it was a contracted group.  I thought Extra Holidays would use their on listing name.  I did not try to book.  I just checked EH has from 339 /night vs the virbo is 266 / night


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## F1or1da1 (Oct 17, 2022)

What


HitchHiker71 said:


> That is not how Koala works for example. Their system doesn’t require any owner to give their login credentials. Koala simply serves as a broker between the seller and the buyer for requested vacations. I know a few other pints managers who take the same approach that Koala does just using private FB groups to facilitate the process instead of a website. Having to hand over creds, while popular in the past, has become an outdated concept nowadays.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


whats Your experience with Koala like?


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 17, 2022)

F1or1da1 said:


> What
> 
> whats Your experience with Koala like?



I cannot comment firsthand on Koala use - perhaps others will do so - but for Club Wyndham owners the process is all clearly outlined right on their website:









						KOALA: Timeshare Rental Made Easy. Top Resorts Up To 70% Off
					

Rent direct from timeshare owners and book vacations at the world's best resorts for less. KOALA makes timeshare rentals easy, safe, and secure.




					www.go-koala.com
				





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cbyrne1174 (Oct 17, 2022)

F1or1da1 said:


> What
> 
> whats Your experience with Koala like?



Using Koala is a great way to get your account flagged! The website makes you put in Koala's email and phone number into the guest certificate when you book.


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## chapjim (Oct 17, 2022)

cbyrne1174 said:


> Using Koala is a great way to get your account flagged! The website makes you put in Koala's email and phone number into the guest certificate when you book.



True dat!


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## happyhopian (Oct 18, 2022)

troy12n said:


> I definitely agree that certain salespeople used this tactic *to* *get sales*.
> 
> We all know the salespeople lie and will say whatever they want *to make a sale*
> 
> ...



So not for commercial use, unless you use Extra Holidays... yeah I think a court will reverse that if anyone had the jewels to challenge them


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## am1 (Oct 18, 2022)

happyhopian said:


> So not for commercial use, unless you use Extra Holidays... yeah I think a court will reverse that if anyone had the jewels to challenge them


The ones that did already left.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 18, 2022)

happyhopian said:


> So not for commercial use, unless you use Extra Holidays... yeah I think a court will reverse that if anyone had the jewels to challenge them



The more I think about what's ongoing - the more I think that, at least in part, minimizing and discouraging owner-based rentals is just as much about price/value preservation for EH/Wyndham than the outright discouragement of owner-based rentals.  Don't get me wrong - it's obviously about both - but EH is competing against many owners that price rentals well below market prices really - especially those who are only renting to cover MFs, and those who are willing to take less margin than EH.  EH cannot compete with owner-based renters that are willing to run slimmer margins (and in some cases almost no margin at all) - so they are eliminating the competition.  It will definitely be interesting to see how much activity EH allows for owners over time.  At some point Wyndham is going to have to establish clearer boundaries on this topic - but not until after they meet whatever goals they have to eliminate enough competition.


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## Sandi Bo (Oct 18, 2022)

There are so many things wrong with EH. I wonder how profitable it actually is, or if anyone cares?  Their website is pathetic. If you call in, they don't care (about the website), they just say that it's best to call. You can't rent 3 or especially 4 bedrooms there, I don't think.  Certainly no presidentials. Not that I am aware. Why did they exclude EH from owner priority dates?  Just seems like if someone actually took an interest in making EH a profit center, there's a lot of potential.


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## RENTER (Oct 22, 2022)

ronparise said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am still in Florida. I am renting from other owners since I used up all my 2022 and 2023 points. I am still catching Wyndham sales agents lying to potential buyers that they can rent to pay for VIP and I am referring those guests to this site to follow the debate of whether you can do or not. I am hoping that because of the revolt here by owners who use guest passes is causing Wyndham to compromise because we are costing them business. Three things indicate to me that they may. First is the waiting list. That should make those who were unhappy that some owners would book a room a year ahead and then cancel to rebook at lower points. They will not get the room back if other owners want it. Second, is the phone verification. That should slow down those who are really a commercial business. Third is something many of you may not know. Wyndham has joined a partnership with Airbnb. Those who have listings on Airbnb have told me they received a letter about this from Airbnb. That Wyndham is going to help them host at the resorts but want approval on the wording of the listing and confirm that the host is a owner. If not a trick to catch who is renting on Airbnb, that would also put a stop to the real commercial business and allow owners to continue to rent to pay for their costs. Several questions, is this a trick? Did Wyndham realize how much they were hurting owners who were depending on that rental income? Or did Wyndham realize if this country does slip into recession, their business will suffer because sales and hotel guests will dwindle. Already short-term renters across the country are complaining about how their rentals have dried up with the slowing economy. So, one can assume the hotel business is also suffering. So, they may let people continue to rent now except for those popular dates and resorts and then stop the rentals once the economy recovers. I sure hope it is not a trick and a real compromise since I have enjoyed my time using Wyndham. I do not want to leave. But I would have never bought if I could not have rented. If Wyndham continues to step on those who did nothing wrong, then I do not want to continue to pay them.


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## paxsarah (Oct 22, 2022)

RENTER said:


> That should make those who were unhappy that some owners would book a room a year ahead and then cancel to rebook at lower points. _*They will not get the room back*_ if other owners want it.


1. This has not been possible on a regular basis since 2017, when Wyndham instituted automatic upgrades while also varying the time at which a cancelled reservation comes back so the same owner can't reliably catch their own cancellation.
2. The waitlist already doesn't change anything because of #1, but also because the waitlist is not functional within the discount/upgrade window. The waitlist stops 2 months out.


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## bnoble (Oct 22, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> 2017


Has it really been that long? Wow, time flies I guess.


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## RENTER (Oct 22, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> 1. This has not been possible on a regular basis since 2017, when Wyndham instituted automatic upgrades while also varying the time at which a cancelled reservation comes back so the same owner can't reliably catch their own cancellation.
> 2. The waitlist already doesn't change anything because of #1, but also because the waitlist is not functional within the discount/upgrade window. The waitlist stops 2 months out.


wrong again. People were still booking and rebooking. Yes the change made it harder but it was still being done.


----------



## jules54 (Oct 22, 2022)

Melder said:


> Over the last couple of years I certainly have.  I've been able to book where I want, when I want and the unit I want at 10 months.  This wasn't possible a few years ago.  I'd have to settle for less desirable dates / locations.



IMO the more availability at the more desirable resorts was created by Covid not owners no longer renting their reservations. I think you’ll find 2023 will show less inventory available again as so many owners have rolled their points forward.


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## paxsarah (Oct 22, 2022)

RENTER said:


> wrong again. People were still booking and rebooking. Yes the change made it harder but it was still being done.


Since 2017 owners have been rebooking available inventory and then canceling their original reservation, but


RENTER said:


> They will not get the room back


was over as of May 2017. Nobody’s been getting their own room back reliably.


----------



## chapjim (Oct 22, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Wyndham has joined a partnership with Airbnb.



We heard about that a while back.



RENTER said:


> People were still booking and rebooking. Yes the change made it harder but it was still being done.



I suppose if someone has absolutely nothing to do and is extraordinarily lucky, he might score a cancel/rebook now and then.


----------



## WManning (Oct 23, 2022)

am1 said:


> The ones that did already left.


No one in their right mind would risk their family jewels fighting the heavy weight champ.


----------



## WManning (Oct 23, 2022)

RENTER said:


> wrong again. People were still booking and rebooking. Yes the change made it harder but it was still being done.


Not very likely a cancel and rebook. More likely a book, book and then cancel.


----------



## WManning (Oct 23, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I am still in Florida. I am renting from other owners since I used up all my 2022 and 2023 points. I am still catching Wyndham sales agents lying to potential buyers that they can rent to pay for VIP and I am referring those guests to this site to follow the debate of whether you can do or not. I am hoping that because of the revolt here by owners who use guest passes is causing Wyndham to compromise because we are costing them business. Three things indicate to me that they may. First is the waiting list. That should make those who were unhappy that some owners would book a room a year ahead and then cancel to rebook at lower points. They will not get the room back if other owners want it. Second, is the phone verification. That should slow down those who are really a commercial business. Third is something many of you may not know. Wyndham has joined a partnership with Airbnb. Those who have listings on Airbnb have told me they received a letter about this from Airbnb. That Wyndham is going to help them host at the resorts but want approval on the wording of the listing and confirm that the host is a owner. If not a trick to catch who is renting on Airbnb, that would also put a stop to the real commercial business and allow owners to continue to rent to pay for their costs. Several questions, is this a trick? Did Wyndham realize how much they were hurting owners who were depending on that rental income? Or did Wyndham realize if this country does slip into recession, their business will suffer because sales and hotel guests will dwindle. Already short-term renters across the country are complaining about how their rentals have dried up with the slowing economy. So, one can assume the hotel business is also suffering. So, they may let people continue to rent now except for those popular dates and resorts and then stop the rentals once the economy recovers. I sure hope it is not a trick and a real compromise since I have enjoyed my time using Wyndham. I do not want to leave. But I would have never bought if I could not have rented. If Wyndham continues to step on those who did nothing wrong, then I do not want to continue to pay them.


Sounds like you need to walk away and leave your shoes on the mat!


----------



## RENTER (Oct 25, 2022)

paxsarah said:


> Since 2017 owners have been rebooking available inventory and then canceling their original reservation, but
> 
> was over as of May 2017. Nobody’s been getting their own room back reliably.


you have no idea what is going on. So maybe while you're sitting there drinking whatever you're drinking you may think of ways how people are working it. Oh, by the way, Wyndham is approving owner's rental postings on short term rental sites. They are not allowed to post unless Wyndham reviews it and I understand why. I have heard horror stories about resort staff being yelled at because the owner did not explain things to their renters. If Wyndham requests changes, they must make it before they are allowed to post on the short-term rental site.  The short-term rental sites and Wyndham are working together.


----------



## CO skier (Oct 25, 2022)

RENTER said:


> you have no idea what is going on.


I, and probably most everyone else reading your posts, think the exact same thing about you.


----------



## scootr5 (Oct 25, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Oh, by the way, Wyndham is approving owner's rental postings on short term rental sites. They are not allowed to post unless Wyndham reviews it



Exactly which short term rental sites is this occurring on, besides Extra Holidays and the above claimed Airbnb?


----------



## Sandi Bo (Oct 25, 2022)

RENTER said:


> you have no idea what is going on. So maybe while you're sitting there drinking whatever you're drinking you may think of ways how people are working it. Oh, by the way, Wyndham is approving owner's rental postings on short term rental sites. They are not allowed to post unless Wyndham reviews it and I understand why. I have heard horror stories about resort staff being yelled at because the owner did not explain things to their renters. If Wyndham requests changes, they must make it before they are allowed to post on the short-term rental site.  The short-term rental sites and Wyndham are working together.





scootr5 said:


> Exactly which short term rental sites is this occurring on, besides Extra Holidays and the above claimed Airbnb?


And...what is the process for getting approved by Wyndham? Inquiring minds want to know. Would love to see an example of a short-term, approved, rental posting.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Oct 25, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I am still in Florida. I am renting from other owners since I used up all my 2022 and 2023 points. I am still catching Wyndham sales agents lying to potential buyers that they can rent to pay for VIP and I am referring those guests to this site to follow the debate of whether you can do or not. I am hoping that because of the revolt here by owners who use guest passes is causing Wyndham to compromise because we are costing them business. Three things indicate to me that they may. First is the waiting list. That should make those who were unhappy that some owners would book a room a year ahead and then cancel to rebook at lower points. They will not get the room back if other owners want it. Second, is the phone verification. That should slow down those who are really a commercial business. Third is something many of you may not know. Wyndham has joined a partnership with Airbnb. Those who have listings on Airbnb have told me they received a letter about this from Airbnb. That Wyndham is going to help them host at the resorts but want approval on the wording of the listing and confirm that the host is a owner. If not a trick to catch who is renting on Airbnb, that would also put a stop to the real commercial business and allow owners to continue to rent to pay for their costs. Several questions, is this a trick? Did Wyndham realize how much they were hurting owners who were depending on that rental income? Or did Wyndham realize if this country does slip into recession, their business will suffer because sales and hotel guests will dwindle. Already short-term renters across the country are complaining about how their rentals have dried up with the slowing economy. So, one can assume the hotel business is also suffering. So, they may let people continue to rent now except for those popular dates and resorts and then stop the rentals once the economy recovers. I sure hope it is not a trick and a real compromise since I have enjoyed my time using Wyndham. I do not want to leave. But I would have never bought if I could not have rented. If Wyndham continues to step on those who did nothing wrong, then I do not want to continue to pay them.



Please produce a copy of this alleged letter sent to owners from Airbnb. I also know a few owners who actively used Airbnb for Wyndham rentals so I will make inquiries to them directly to substantiate your claim. I have not seen any references to any Airbnb letters on the FB groups either, which is very odd since someone would have posted such a letter to validate if anyone else received similar correspondence. It’s possible that I may have missed such a posting - but the fellow admins/moderators that I know and work with from the FB groups likely would have pointed something like this out previously. I’m from the Missouri state - show us the evidence. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## paxsarah (Oct 25, 2022)

RENTER said:


> you have no idea what is going on. So maybe while you're sitting there drinking whatever you're drinking you may think of ways how people are working it.


This leaves me with two questions:
1. Do your cancellations come back instantly or at a predictable interval so you can rebook them when they come back into inventory? Obviously you can’t tell us the exact interval because I’m sure you want to keep it proprietary, but surely you’d take pleasure in confirming that you’ve been able to crack the code on something (figuring out how to reliably and safely rebook one’s own cancelled reservation) that nobody here has been able to do since 2017.

2. This still doesn’t explain to me how the waitlist would finally eliminate this practice, since the waitlist isn’t active in the discount window. How does the waitlist change anything here?


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## chapjim (Oct 25, 2022)

CO skier said:


> I, and probably most everyone else reading your posts, think the exact same thing about you.



When was it that another know-it-all newbie came crashing in full of bluster and hubris about taking on Wyndham?  A year or so ago?   Anyway, this guy sounds like that guy.


----------



## chapjim (Oct 25, 2022)

RENTER said:


> *you have no idea what is going on*. So maybe while you're sitting there drinking whatever you're drinking you may think of ways how people are working it. Oh, by the way, Wyndham is approving owner's rental postings on short term rental sites. They are not allowed to post unless Wyndham reviews it and I understand why. I have heard horror stories about resort staff being yelled at because the owner did not explain things to their renters. If Wyndham requests changes, they must make it before they are allowed to post on the short-term rental site.  The short-term rental sites and Wyndham are working together.



@paxsarah is one of the most thoughtful, succinct, and knowledgeable posters on this forum.


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## RENTER (Oct 25, 2022)

I have been told more listings have been approved by Wyndham on short term rental sites. So, it appears we are allowed to rent there as long as we allow Wyndham to review the listings and ask us to make any changes they request. So far there have been no change requests because the postings pretty much covered everything. It is a reasonable request since the resort staff told me they have been screamed at because the host owner did not explain to the renter how things worked. The message of the partnership between the short-term rental site and Wyndham comes from the rental site. They say that we have to allow Wyndham access within 30 days, or we can no longer post on their site. Once we allow them, Wyndham will approve the listing within 2 days which is what they have done so far. No one I have talked to have been denied. They say this is a common thing they do with buildings that have homeowner associations. They did provide standard paperwork how this works and one of the things is that the building management can ask for a share of the revenue and that the rental site company will pay it from what they own us. As far as I know, Wyndham has not asked for a piece of the action. I DO NOT KNOW if Wyndham is only going to allow renting thru these short-term rental sites. So far, they have only made this partnership with a few resorts that I know off.  Bonnett Creek is one of them. I do not have time to review responses especially snide remarks from those who told us we had no chance to change Wyndham's mind. So, I will post and move on rather then get into arguments with people. I will keep you informed what is going on. Hopefully this is not a trick to shut us down. Hopefully Wyndham has realized that many including them have benefitting from owners renting. For years I said that the short-term rental sites should partner up with the timeshares. They were having so many problems with short term rentals in residential areas and timeshares are in areas zoned for hotels. Plus, they were so many owners struggling to pay for their timeshare. It was a good match.


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## bnoble (Oct 25, 2022)

I'm reminded of this classic bit from Ferris Bueller's Day Off.


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## tschwa2 (Oct 25, 2022)

RENTER said:


> I have been told more listings have been approved by Wyndham on short term rental sites. So, it appears we are allowed to rent there as long as we allow Wyndham to review the listings and ask us to make any changes they request. So far there have been no change requests because the postings pretty much covered everything. It is a reasonable request since the resort staff told me they have been screamed at because the host owner did not explain to the renter how things worked. The message of the partnership between the short-term rental site and Wyndham comes from the rental site. They say that we have to allow Wyndham access within 30 days, or we can no longer post on their site. Once we allow them, Wyndham will approve the listing within 2 days which is what they have done so far. No one I have talked to have been denied. They say this is a common thing they do with buildings that have homeowner associations. They did provide standard paperwork how this works and one of the things is that the building management can ask for a share of the revenue and that the rental site company will pay it from what they own us. As far as I know, Wyndham has not asked for a piece of the action. I DO NOT KNOW if Wyndham is only going to allow renting thru these short-term rental sites. So far, they have only made this partnership with a few resorts that I know off.  Bonnett Creek is one of them. I do not have time to review responses especially snide remarks from those who told us we had no chance to change Wyndham's mind. So, I will post and move on rather then get into arguments with people. I will keep you informed what is going on. Hopefully this is not a trick to shut us down. Hopefully Wyndham has realized that many including them have benefitting from owners renting. For years I said that the short-term rental sites should partner up with the timeshares. They were having so many problems with short term rentals in residential areas and timeshares are in areas zoned for hotels. Plus, they were so many owners struggling to pay for their timeshare. It was a good match.


I may have missed it but who told you that wyndham is approving of these listings and telling you about the "standard paperwork" that wyndham or wyndham hoa's are providing.


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## Sandy VDH (Oct 25, 2022)

@RENTER can you specifically tell us the name of these short term rental sites?


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## scootr5 (Oct 25, 2022)

Sandy VDH said:


> @RENTER can you specifically tell us the name of these short term rental sites?



Of course not. He has specifically ignored those questions, and any request for substantiation  or examples of his claims.


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## chapjim (Oct 25, 2022)

scootr5 said:


> Of course not. He has specifically ignored those questions, and any request for substantiation  or examples of his claims.



He "has been told!"  That's supposed to be enough.


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## RENTER (Oct 26, 2022)

Just a warning. This so call partnership between Wyndham and short-term rental sites may be a trap to catch those they have not sent letters to. These people have been off the radar and were still renting. Some have no idea that they were not allowed to. For those who did, this partnership may make it for them to feel safe and join and post on a short-term rental site and submit their listing to Wyndham for approval. Then Wyndham approves and then springs the trap later with the commercial business BS. Another thing, not all owners at a resort on short term rental sites receive a partnership notice because they left out one thing from their posting that keeps them off the radar.  So, the question is, if Wyndham approves you to rent on a short-term rental site, can they still tag you as a commercial business and cancel your guest passes? I am going to take the bait and try. When I get free time, I am going to submit create postings at resorts they are doing it at and adding that missing piece of info. Then wait for that partnership notice and then submit it for approval.  If it is a trap, it will be the last time I paid them a dime and should strengthen our case against them. Once again, unlike those who monitor this site every day to attack others, I do not have time. So, PM me if you need additional info.


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## scootr5 (Oct 26, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Once again, unlike those who monitor this site every day to attack others, I do not have time. So, PM me if you need additional info.



And once again vague, unsubstantiated claims about Wyndham approving rentals on "some short-term rental sites".

It's like the return of RRlongwell.


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## am1 (Oct 26, 2022)

scootr5 said:


> And once again vague, unsubstantiated claims about Wyndham approving rentals on "some short-term rental sites".
> 
> It's like the return of RRlongwell.



Banning some and offically allowing others without a notice to all would open them up to lawsuits.


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## scootr5 (Oct 26, 2022)

am1 said:


> Banning some and officially allowing others without a notice to all would open them up to lawsuits.



Well, he is doing this to "strengthen our case against them"


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## tschwa2 (Oct 26, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Just a warning. This so call partnership between Wyndham and short-term rental sites may be a trap to catch those they have not sent letters to. These people have been off the radar and were still renting. Some have no idea that they were not allowed to. For those who did, this partnership may make it for them to feel safe and join and post on a short-term rental site and submit their listing to Wyndham for approval. Then Wyndham approves and then springs the trap later with the commercial business BS. Another thing, not all owners at a resort on short term rental sites receive a partnership notice because they left out one thing from their posting that keeps them off the radar.  So, the question is, if Wyndham approves you to rent on a short-term rental site, can they still tag you as a commercial business and cancel your guest passes? I am going to take the bait and try. When I get free time, I am going to submit create postings at resorts they are doing it at and adding that missing piece of info. Then wait for that partnership notice and then submit it for approval.  If it is a trap, it will be the last time I paid them a dime and should strengthen our case against them. Once again, unlike those who monitor this site every day to attack others, I do not have time. So, PM me if you need additional info.


The only one that has suggested that there is a partnership between Wyndham and short term owner rental sites is you.  You assured us that there was such a partnership because someone who you won't name told you so.  And now you are calling it a "so called partnership"?  How the heck would we know if it is a trap when the only evidence presented of its existence is from your "so called sources" and we have no clue what such a partnership letter may or may not say.  By all means take you own bait if you have the time.


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## Jan M. (Oct 26, 2022)

In the past I've said repeatedly that the glut of owners renting at bargain basement prices compared to what Extra Holidays charges would be an issue for Wyndham. That they've invested too much time and money into developing, advertising and operating Extra Holidays to not eventually have to do something about it. One doesn't have to be a business whiz to understand that.

I haven't been a fan of Extra Holidays in the past but I'm learning from friends who are now using EH that things have changed.

Here's some things to consider.

1. Owners who rent for less than Extra Holidays gets devalue the product. That not only hurts EH but also other owners.

2. If an owner is using a point manager the point managers are making at least 40%.

3. Extra Holidays can advertise the rentals and sell them in more ways than the owner or point manager can. EH is selling owners stays on the different travel sites; not just on the EH website.

4. If the entire reservation doesn't get sold but some or all of the remaining nights do later sell Extra Holidays is now paying the owners for those nights. I don't know when this change came about but it's huge plus for owners. Also from what I learned the owner isn't being charged for the additional housekeeping credits if those other nights sell.

5. Extra Holidays offers security to the buyer that they don't get when they rent directly from owners and point managers. Some of you might not be aware that there's been a number of issues and I'm not talking about a few isolated incidents. This is something the heavily rented resorts in particular deal with and have reported up the chain of command.

6. Wyndham is allowing owners who've gotten "the letters" to rent through EH.

7. But I'll have to deal with reporting it on my taxes if I use EH! Unless the buyer is paying the owner in cash or by check for their rental using the payment sites/apps isn't a way around that anymore or not for much longer.

8. Owners always have the option to call in and cancel a reservation if no part of it rented as long as it's still 15 days before the check in date. However if the owner has a good reservation EH reps are advising that there's a lot of people buying stays with two weeks of the check in date. This is something the mega renters and point managers know and why they find it worthwhile not to cancel some reservations that haven't yet rented.

9. Extra Holidays reps have lists of resorts and dates that are needed to help owners with what to book. From what I was told they will not take reservations for stays on the Owner Priority lists. Also the reservation only has to be 30 days out now not 60 days like it used to be.

10. The buyers being allowed to cancel with 14 days is still a major concern for owners who use Extra Holidays. I'm sure that Wyndham is working on a solution. Is there already an option for the reservation to be purchased as refundable or nonrefundable? Although anyone who rents on their own either has or eventually will have to deal with a buyer who has a death in the family, an accident or illness that makes the family unable to go, weather related issues, etc.


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## Cyrus24 (Oct 26, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> I haven't been a fan of Extra Holidays in the past but I'm learning from friends who are now using EH that things have changed.


My one and only experience with EH was AWFUL.  Unlike during 2020/2021, I no longer have excess points.  But, if I do end up with excess points, I'll give EH another try.  Maybe.


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## CO skier (Oct 26, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> 4. If the entire reservation doesn't get sold but some or all of the remaining nights do later sell Extra Holidays is now paying the owners for those nights. I don't know when this change came about but it's huge plus for owners. Also from what I learned the owner isn't being charged for the additional housekeeping credits if those other nights sell.


Definitely not an Extra Holidays expert, but I thought this was always the case.  What?, "If the entire reservation doesn't get sold but some or all of the remaining nights do later sell"  Wyndham just kept the rental money on the remaining nights before now?


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## Jan M. (Oct 26, 2022)

CO skier said:


> Definitely not an Extra Holidays expert, but I thought this was always the case.  What?, "If the entire reservation doesn't get sold but some or all of the remaining nights do later sell"  Wyndham just kept the rental money on the remaining nights before now?



Yes, in the past the owners just forfeited the nights that didn't sell in the initial purchase.


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## bryjake (Oct 27, 2022)

Jan M. said:


> In the past I've said repeatedly that the glut of owners renting at bargain basement prices compared to what Extra Holidays charges would be an issue for Wyndham. That they've invested too much time and money into developing, advertising and operating Extra Holidays to not eventually have to do something about it. One doesn't have to be a business whiz to understand that.
> 
> I haven't been a fan of Extra Holidays in the past but I'm learning from friends who are now using EH that things have changed.
> 
> ...



This is all wonderful information to share.  Is this "officially" published or anchored anywhere by CW?
I do trust this post, having it anchored takes it to the next level of validation


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 27, 2022)

bryjake said:


> This is all wonderful information to share.  Is this "officially" published or anchored anywhere by CW?
> I do trust this post, having it anchored takes it to the next level of validation



Not sure it's all documented, but the program rules for Club Wyndham are outlined here:  https://www.extraholidays.com/owner/club-wyndham-plus

The Vacation Listing Agreement is available here:  https://wyndhameh.na2.adobesign.com...cxseiIEzgrcGOV0ZI4ZKDt6X6Jfmv13Il9iWnm_nv9xw*


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## RENTER (Oct 30, 2022)

tschwa2 said:


> The only one that has suggested that there is a partnership between Wyndham and short term owner rental sites is you.  You assured us that there was such a partnership because someone who you won't name told you so.  And now you are calling it a "so called partnership"?  How the heck would we know if it is a trap when the only evidence presented of its existence is from your "so called sources" and we have no clue what such a partnership letter may or may not say.  By all means take you own bait if you have the time.


Well now you can take it from my mouth and not what someone told me.  Now that I got done with quarterly payroll taxes, I submitted 5 listings for approval and three have been approved. Oops make that 5. Two more were just approved. I have attached the notice that I received. I hope it works.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 30, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Well now you can take it from my mouth and not what someone told me. Now that I got done with quarterly payroll taxes, I submitted 3 listings for approval and all have been approved.



On 10/22 you posted in this thread that you were still in Florida - and that you were renting from other owners because you had already used up all of your 2022 and 2023 points. Are you now saying you created five more rental listings using points you already said you didn’t have? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RENTER (Oct 30, 2022)

HitchHiker71 said:


> On 10/22 you posted in this thread that you were still in Florida - and that you were renting from other owners because you had already used up all of your 2022 and 2023 points. Are you now saying you created five more rental listings using points you already said you didn’t have?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. I submitted the 5 resort listings for future use to list any short term rentals.  Starting Jan 1 I can borrow against my 2024 points if I want to rent.  I had to Nov 20th to get the resorts approved by Wyndham. If not approved by Nov 20th, they would remove my listing from the short term rental sites. I have the resorts listed even if I do not have any open dates available.


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## chapjim (Oct 30, 2022)

RENTER said:


> Well now you can take it from my mouth and not what someone told me.  Now that I got done with quarterly payroll taxes, I submitted 5 listings for approval and three have been approved. Oops make that 5. Two more were just approved. I have attached the notice that I received. I hope it works.



It doesn't.  It is gobbledygook -- what we have come to expect from you.


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## RENTER (Oct 30, 2022)

chapjim said:


> It doesn't.  It is gobbledygook -- what we have come to expect from you.


what ever you say. Have a nice night.


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## lotus921v (Oct 31, 2022)

RENTER said:


> No. I submitted the 5 resort listings for future use to list any short term rentals.  Starting Jan 1 I can borrow against my 2024 points if I want to rent.  I had to Nov 20th to get the resorts approved by Wyndham. If not approved by Nov 20th, they would remove my listing from the short term rental sites. I have the resorts listed even if I do not have any open dates available.


I clicked on what you posted.  It’s a txt file that isn’t clear.  Can you upload a pdf?


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## RENTER (Oct 31, 2022)

lotus921v said:


> I clicked on what you posted.  It’s a txt file that isn’t clear.  Can you upload a pdf?


 I tried.  But look at my next post


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## RENTER (Oct 31, 2022)

If anyone who agrees with me wants to see what I am talking about, PM with a phone number or email. I will send a screen shot of the notice I received and a email of the approval I received. My camera is broken, and I only have a flip phone. I will also send you a screen shot of my rental income this year using my 2022 and 2023 points. But please I ask one thing, when you confirm that I am correct, PLEASE PLEASE rub it in the faces of my critics.


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## rickandcindy23 (Oct 31, 2022)

Do not open the document RENTER attached.  It could be somehow tracking those who are trying to open it.  I have it on good authority, another TUG member.


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## 55plus (Oct 31, 2022)

There are always some who try to impress others with lies and BS. When caught in a lie they try to lie their way out of it. Eventually they forget what lies they told and have to lie again to coverup it up. In reality it shows ignorance and stupidity on their part. And in some cases, which it looks like this is one of them, they get off on what they are doing. Sad, very sad.


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## HitchHiker71 (Oct 31, 2022)

*MODERATOR POST:*

All - I am officially investigating the claims in this thread and have performed some due diligence and have concerns - I am therefore "pausing" this thread until I complete my investigation.  Once my investigation is complete I may or may not re-open this thread for further replies.  Thanks in advance for your understanding on this matter - if anyone has questions - feel free to DM me of course.


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## HitchHiker71 (Nov 3, 2022)

All, given the recent thread regarding some type of Wyndham/Airbnb partnership here:  https://tugbbs.com/forums/threads/your-building-welcomes-hosting-on-airbnb.345824/

I have unlocked this thread for further comment and discussion.  While @RENTER hasn't really shared any details- the above listed thread actually contains some of the details we have been after.  What we would like to understand moving forward is if this new program is limited to fixed weeks only - or if this new program is somehow eligible for points ownerships as well?  I've already made an inquiry into my Wyndham contacts seeking clarity on the nature of this program and any details that Wyndham can share publicly.  I hope to hear something back soon.


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## Lsfinn (Nov 9, 2022)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I hope Wyndham owners rise up against Wyndham, but they will not do that.



"Rise-up" against Wyndham? How? Make a suggestion.


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## sponger76 (Nov 9, 2022)

Lsfinn said:


> "Rise-up" against Wyndham? How? Make a suggestion.


Grab your torch and pitchfork? Armed guerilla warfare? Maybe an Occupy Wall Street type of protest... So many ways you could rise up!


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## Rolltydr (Nov 9, 2022)

This is my favorite rising.






The Rising


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## jules54 (Nov 10, 2022)

If you know anything about Airbnb or VRBO you’ll know they approve all listings. What they are really approving is the ad you created. This has nothing to do with Wyndham approving anything. Years ago both companies started letting timeshare owners rent on those sites. Wyndham has no partnership to my knowledge. If someone has proof of something otherwise please PM me. On Airbnb until a reservation is rented it stays in the owners name so if Wyndham was cancelling something it wouldn’t be till after a guest name was added. FYI from my personal experience Wyndham can cancel Airbnb rentals just as quick and easy as what is described as owners personal commercial rentals. Once again not a damn thing owners can do about it. Emails go out to the guest email on the confirmation not the owner. Wyndham doesn’t know or care that the rental was done through Airbnb.


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## RENTER (Nov 20, 2022)

jules54 said:


> If you know anything about Airbnb or VRBO you’ll know they approve all listings. What they are really approving is the ad you created. This has nothing to do with Wyndham approving anything. Years ago both companies started letting timeshare owners rent on those sites. Wyndham has no partnership to my knowledge. If someone has proof of something otherwise please PM me. On Airbnb until a reservation is rented it stays in the owners name so if Wyndham was cancelling something it wouldn’t be till after a guest name was added. FYI from my personal experience Wyndham can cancel Airbnb rentals just as quick and easy as what is described as owners personal commercial rentals. Once again not a damn thing owners can do about it. Emails go out to the guest email on the confirmation not the owner. Wyndham doesn’t know or care that the rental was done through Airbnb.


Tell me how to share pictures and I will gladly post them. I have tried and it keeps telling me the file is to big to post. Off course I will be accused of faking the photos. The only thing I am faking is where I am so I cannot be tracked, and my identity revealed. I assumed someone would be tracking my IP address and if it was Wyndham, they could connect the dots and figure out who I am. If they do, then it would be not hard to connect the other owners I am working with. I did offer to send the photos with my FLIP PHONE, but I was not thinking. Because then you would have had my phone number. So that offer is no longer on the table.


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