# We fell for it...



## rjsin88 (Mar 13, 2014)

First and foremost, I'd like to introduce myself/ourselves. About a year ago, my wife (Lindsay) and I (Raman) were introduced to Silverleaf resorts and that's how it all began......

We spent hours at the Piney Shores Resort (Conroe location) and ended up purchasing a time share for roughly $10k, Red, Week 12 - Branson Missouri (2/2) .  We like to travel internationally and our sole purporse of getting this timeshare was so we could book through RCI using our "points" -- and then we realized we are only allocated 10 points per year.  I was kind of skeptical about this "great deal" to begin with but we went along with it because of the "perks" that were presented.

As many others realized too late, we found out that what we were sold and what we received were entirely different things.  Now we are stuck with a time share w/ Silverleaf resorts - $9k in the hole with monthly & maintenance payments.  Lindsay spoke to some "representative" from a website called buyatimeshare.com and they wanted to charge us $750  upfront fee in order to help selling our timeshare -- and this is when I found TUG :whoopie: I am looking to take my time, do my homework, before we make any further decisions w/ this time share.

I do have couple of questions and would love to hear some opinions and advice - 

1.) My timeshare is currently being financed w/ Silverleaf @ God knows what rate (roughly 22%+).  I can go to a bank and re-finance it but this allows Silverleaf not to be responsible at all w/ this deed.  The question (which I THINK I know the answer to) is - Do you guys recommend refinancing so I can get a lower rate?  Or just continue to pay through Silverleaf so that they hold the deed the entire time?

2.) What's the next best step for us?  Ideally we want to unload it but don’t have the cash to pay it off at once.  Should we work on paying it off overtime and then simply donate it after so we can utilize it in the interim for weekend trips and maybe an RCI trip or two and then be rid of the maintenance fees? We'd like to make a good use out of it so we won't feel like we flushed $10k down the toilet (though we are aware that we did). 

3.) We were just recently invited to the Galveston location for the weekend (next weekend), and I've told Lindsay this, "Silverleaf can invite us to these things all they want, and we will go - free getaways.  But we will strictly/clearly tell these people that WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE TO OFFER".  If Silverleaf decides to no longer invite us to these so-called "free weekend trips" then tough luck!   I saw in your postings that you do not recommend attending any more events.  However, this was booked and we will be charged a cancelation fee if we cancel at this point.  Would you advise paying the cancellation fee or just going and telling them up front they are wasting their time trying to sell us on anything? 

4) I read in one of the postings how Silverleaf has in the past taken the deed back in lieu of foreclosure, how does that work and what would that do, if anything, to our credit?

Thanks, looking forward to hear some great feedback!!


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## Passepartout (Mar 13, 2014)

First. Welcome to TUG. Many of us fell into the same or similar trap that you did. I only say that to let you know you are not alone. What you bought will not go far toward international travel, but still, you can go to lots of places in N. America on what I am assuming are 10 RCI Trading Points. Don't be thinking beach in Hawaii, but Las Vegas, Orlando, and other popular places will work.

The problem is that you overpaid, AND financed that overpayment through the developer. You might be able to shave some percentage off the loan by getting your own financing, but unless it is tied to your home loan, you won't save much, and do you REALLY want your home tied to a timeshare? Now the bitter medicine. When you do get it paid for, it will be worth about nothing, in fact you might have to pay someone to take it. 

So now, the advice section. Go to the freebie you signed up for. But before you go, print out some recent Silverleaf resort ads from eBay that show what similar units are selling for (or not as I suspect) to show the lying salesweasels who will recognize you as 'One of our BEST customers(suckers)'. That should end the sales meeting fairly quickly so you can unplug the phone and have a nice getaway Galveston is nice.

Do not 'upgrade' so you can do the international travel. Do not EVER pay anyone upfront to  get you out of your timeshare. And finally, remember, if you do slip up and sign anything, rescind within 5 days. It is your right!

Best wishes. I wish the news was better, but in the end, it's just $10k. Many have been taken for lots more. Good luck.

Jim


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## csxjohn (Mar 13, 2014)

rjsin88 said:


> ...4) I read in one of the postings how Silverleaf has in the past taken the deed back in lieu of foreclosure, how does that work and what would that do, if anything, to our credit?
> 
> Thanks, looking forward to hear some great feedback!!



It will only work if you contact them and let them know you can no longer make any of the payments and you'd like to just give it back rather than have them go through the trouble of foreclosure.

Many people have kept trying until the resort has taken it back, you need to talk to the right person, don't just take no for an answer from a desk clerk.

If you can't make that work then I would consider refinancing at a lower rate using a home equity loan if you have equity in your home, many do not.

If none of that works, you could learn to use it until it's paid off then you can give it away or by then you may find that you like it.  You can get plenty of advice here on how to use it.

I'm not a financial or legal expert nor do I work in either field so don't consider this legal or financial advice, it's just my personal opinion.


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## sjsharkie (Mar 13, 2014)

1.  No, I do not recommend tying your timeshare to any hard collateral.  Unless you can refinance and beat the rate without pledging any collateral, I'd stay as is -- though at 22% with good credit, I would think you would be able to find a lower source of funding.

2.  You could do a strategic default.  State of Missouri is non-recourse for non-judicial foreclosures (which most are).  This would damage your credit considerably -- for $9K, I'm not sure that it is worth it.  You need to make that decision.  You could also do a deed-in-lieu if the resort offers it, but if you are current on the payments, they are unlikely to accept.  Again, a deed-in-lieu is still reported as a negative item on your credit report.

3.  As Jim pointed out, you could learn to use it.  I'm not familiar with Silverleaf, and I'm not sure if this is a fixed or floating week.  Week 12 is kind of a mud-shoulder week for Branson -- I agree with Jim that you would likely have to pay someone to take this in order to get rid of it after the loan is paid off.

4.  I would go to the timeshare armed with the knowledge that you can purchase resale for next to nothing.  I would not pay them any more money for cancelling -- I disagree with others about flatly not going to any of these things if you feel it is worth your time.  You will experience the sales pressure from these events and can determine for yourself if it is worth your time and angst.  I've gone to several and all were worth my time for what I received in benefits -- to each his own; just don't buy anything!

Good luck.

-ryan


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 13, 2014)

No lender will  give you a cent   with a worthless TS  as collateral.

You would have  to do a HE  loan  around 5%-6%.  This  would  cut payment  significantly!

Then  learn how to use.

 Around  99.9% of the  Saviour's   who want up  front fees are  scammers.


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## presley (Mar 13, 2014)

1.) and 4.)  You need to decide if you want to pay this off or default on it.  Also, nobody can sell your timeshare while you owe on it.   So, you can pay lots of companies listing fees to list it, but nobody can buy it.  You can quit paying and ask the resort to take back the deed.  It will look bad on your credit rating.

If you plan to default, don't pay it off with another loan.  That will kill that idea.
If you'd like to pay it off to use it or give it away, then you will save a lot of money by transferring it to a home equity load, personal loan or even those credit card specials where you get a low rate for a year.   Just make sure you read the fine print so you know how high the rate can go later on,

2.)   Try to use it while you have it.  You can buy extra vacations on RCI and while I have no idea what Silverleaf offers, they may have ways that you could take a nice vacation while it is still yours.

3.)  I don't go to sales pitches unless I am interested to hear what they are offering.  If you don't mind the mind games and are sure you won't buy anything else and you feel like it is worth your time to go to one, then go to it.  If the experience will piss you off, it will ruin the rest of your day.


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## rjsin88 (Mar 13, 2014)

Wow, what a great start. I like the idea of printing an ebay ad so I can show it to them with a big smile on my face. I wonder how long the conversation would last after that. Although, home equity loan sounds like a good idea, it's not a viable option for now. We are thinking about just paying the loan off in the next year and possibly look into donating it. 

So from my understanding - 

A. Look into HE and/or find another financing source to drop the rate
B. Since we are trying to keep a good credit score - default or "taking the deed back" is not an option especially if it reflects our credit negatively - My score is finally improving after all my carelessness back in college days
C. Continue to go to these freebies - make sure we are fully loaded w/ our arguments so we won't waste HOURS (last time we got stuck for 8 hours, decided to upgrade, put a down payment check, and then I convinced Lindsay to cancel it - thank goodness)
D. Stay away from these scammers who will "help us sell our time share"


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## csxjohn (Mar 13, 2014)

rjsin88 said:


> Wow, what a great start. I like the idea of printing an ebay ad so I can show it to them with a big smile on my face. I wonder how long the conversation would last after that. Although, home equity loan sounds like a good idea, it's not a viable option for now. We are thinking about just paying the loan off in the next year and possibly look into donating it.
> 
> So from my understanding -
> 
> ...



It is possible to give the deed back without a credit hit, many have done it.  You need to make that a condition of the deed back if it gets that far.


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## SMHarman (Mar 13, 2014)

presley said:


> 1.) and 4.)  You need to decide if you want to pay this off or default on it.  Also, nobody can sell your timeshare while you owe on it.   So, you can pay lots of companies listing fees to list it, but nobody can buy it.  You can quit paying and ask the resort to take back the deed.  It will look bad on your credit rating.
> 
> If you plan to default, don't pay it off with another loan.  That will kill that idea.
> If you'd like to pay it off to use it or give it away, then you will save a lot of money by transferring it to a home equity load, personal loan or even those credit card specials where you get a low rate for a year.   Just make sure you read the fine print so you know how high the rate can go later on,
> ...


^^^
This, you need to work through what other Credit requirements you may need in the coming months and or accelerate some of those requiremnts, e.g. thinking of refinancing the mortgage, do it now, not in 12 months.  Got a car coming off lease, wait until you have taken out the new lease or loan.  When all that is wrapped up, your likely best bet is to default and offer deed in liiu of forclosure.

Then if you like the place go buy a replacement deed on ebay for $1.  But remember you will be tied to those MF until you can get someone else to buy it for $1.


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## pacodemountainside (Mar 13, 2014)

rjsin88;1601042
C. Continue to go to these freebies - make sure we are fully loaded w/ our arguments so we won't waste HOURS (last time we got stuck for 8 hours said:
			
		

> Following are   some of the "chains" I use to rattle  sales people  cages.  Some  are Wyndham  specific, but  are a  smörgåsbord.
> 
> Do not work in Mexico where  for $300 cash and nice breakfast you get beat up for   3-4 hours  or no gift or taxi back to  where you are staying!
> 
> ...


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## pedro47 (Mar 13, 2014)

Welcome to this website and good luck.


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## Beefnot (Mar 13, 2014)

If you can do without good credit for the next 18 mos. to 2 years, a default is probably not so bad.  UNLESS you can also handle your existing credit card companies systematically and unilaterally slashing your credit card limits and/or closing your card out altogether.  Because for the next couple years it could be cash and carry.


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## rjsin88 (Mar 14, 2014)

At the end of the day, the more I think about it - the more upsetting this is. I was at the Rodeo yesterday, and as we are walking @ the reliant center - I was hoping to find one of those silver leaf booths so I can give them a piece of my mind.  Anyways, the damage has been done...

So this is what I'm wondering, when we arrive @ our freebie next weekend, are there any ramifications if I am just straight forward to them, don't want to hear any BS, they can use their time which is allocated to talk to us about anything they want and as soon as the buzzer hits (Paco's idea on setting up a timer), we are out! 

Come to think of it, the Canyon Lake location was TERRIBLE - we killed 2 spiders and two roaches. Looking forward to see what type of infestation is offered at the Galveston location.


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## rjsin88 (Mar 14, 2014)

I'm thinking about printing out all these ebay ads I've seen for a $1, bind it into a report with a cover page and when it's time to meet the blood-sucking sales rep, just hand it over to him. 

Any thoughts on how I can be more creative? haha 
Don't get mad, get even right?


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## csxjohn (Mar 14, 2014)

I think it'd be easier to just sit there after you set the time and keep saying no thank you with out giving reasons.  Of course you'll have to remain cool when they start to question your intelligence and your love of your mate.

As soon as you ask a question or make a comment you open up an avenue for more lies.


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## Bigrob (Mar 14, 2014)

Depending upon what you want to do, if you're just looking to wrap it up, I would use a couple of closing techniques too. Repeating a statement such as, "Let's wrap this up," or "I think we're done here" usually gets 'er done. Sometimes you may need to add motion ("Thanks for your time, we're not interested, who do we check out with?" while standing up). 

It's possibly of course to engage with dialogue for hours if you want. Just know that for every possible point you have, they will have some counterpoint (or lie) because they've heard it all before (unless you happen to get a very junior sales person - and even then the 2nd tier may rush in). So unless you are really intent to create a scene, I'd recommend just being prepared to "wrap it up" as quickly as possible.


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## Passepartout (Mar 14, 2014)

Don't argue with them. Just put in the agreed-to time, and say thanks. The more points you try to make, the more chances they have to sway you. Remember, these people are trained to counter the arguments, or change the subject. 

If I could pose a question to them, it would be "Why weren't the instructions to rescind this contract clearly pointed out, as required by law."

Anyway, enjoy your vacation once you take care of the obligation.

Jim


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## sue1947 (Mar 14, 2014)

You have another choice you haven't mentioned; learn to use it.  You've spent the money and it's gone.  Nothing will change that.  Pay it off and get that 22% interest out of the picture; it's bad enough to pay $10,000 too much but 10,000+22% interest just adds insult to injury.  

Once you've paid it off, look at what you have vs the cost of maintenance fees.  If the exchanges or resort stays are worth that per year, then keep it.  The real cost of timeshares is in the maintenance fees.  You've made a $10,000 mistake so write it off and look at what you have left without that in the picture.   

IGNORE THE SALES People!   All this planning on how to get back at the sales people is wasted energy and wasted extra blood pressure and stress.  They lie for a living so won't care about anything you have to say.  They are very good at dealing with any argument.  My best advise is to not go, but if you must, don't answer any questions and that will speed things up immensely.  Other than that, go to the resorts and enjoy them.  You bought in because you wanted to go so do so.  Learn how to exchange and make the most of what you have.  Once it's paid off, you will have some experience to determine if you want to keep it or not.  

Think of the sales people as mosquitos; very annoying but you don't go out looking for them, or argue with them; you just do your best to avoid them.   Unfortunately, they are a very negative part of most timeshares (but not all) but the good parts far out weigh the bad.  

Sue


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## Hophop4 (Mar 16, 2014)

I have been a Silverleaf owner for several years and it is my understanding that if you have financed  and still owe on the T/S SL will not take it back but....it never hurts to try.  Be sure to call the Corporate Office.  If you decide to use what you have we have a SL/Yahoo Owners Group with many experienced owners who can help you along the way.  Did you get any Bonus Time with your week???  On May 3rd our Yahoo Group is having a Get-to-Gether at Piney Shores and you are welcome to join us.  Just PM me for details. 

Galveston Seaside Resort is very nice.  They just opened up (or will soon) two new buildings.  The Presidentials are a lot more desirable then the Lodge Units.  Just take the advice others have given you here during your presentation.

One more thing I have not seen many SL ads on ebay for several months now.  Maybe one or two the most and they are cheap or overpriced and did not sell.


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## uscav8r (Mar 17, 2014)

rjsin88 said:


> Wow, what a great start. I like the idea of printing an ebay ad so I can show it to them with a big smile on my face. I wonder how long the conversation would last after that. Although, home equity loan sounds like a good idea, it's not a viable option for now. We are thinking about just paying the loan off in the next year and possibly look into donating it.
> 
> So from my understanding -
> 
> ...



Default (i.e. foreclosure) stays on the credit report for 7 years. Yes, the impact upon the credit score lessens over time, but you're stuck for at least 2 years in the dumpster. Are you willing to take the gamble that you won't need any new credit in that time?

As for the HE/LOC, you mentioned that is not currently a viable option. If you eventually are able to go this route (it is probably the cheapest in terms of interest rates), it does not "tie" the TS to your home, just as much as using a HELOC to pay off a car loan does not tie the car to the house. You are pulling cash out, which then pays for the TS loan. Other than the loss/use of some equity they stay independent.

There is also the unsecured personal loan route. Rates are higher than HELOCs, maybe the 9-12% range, but that is MUCH less than the TS loan rate, for which I would be sure to nail down the exact APR and terms before evaluating options.

Once it is paid off, there is no rush to "donate" it or otherwise dispose of it. I assume you made the purchase knowing that you could afford the maintenance fees going forward. That has not changed simply because you feel horrible about the purchase decision. 

As sue1947 suggested, at least make a good faith effort to learn how to use the system. The $9000 is sunk cost, but don't let a bad purchase experience ruin an otherwise viable vacation asset.

Most TUGers (myself included) were in your shoes at one point or another (geez, I make it sound like a recovery/therapy group!). Instead of getting nothing for our $$$$, many of us are trying to make the best of it. It doesn't mean you keep the SL forever, but at least you will have gotten some enjoyment out of its use while you do have it!

Best of luck on your future (now rational and informed) decision-making on this TS and its financial considerations.


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## rjsin88 (Mar 25, 2014)

Update - 

I didn't really feel like going to Galveston (Seaside Resort) this past weekend so I told Lindsay to cancel it and go ahead pay the $50 cancellation fee.  In return, the person (a manager) she spoke to convinced her/us to come up Saturday morning and will comp us with a $100 visa gift card.  So off we went to Seaside Resort - 11 AM last Saturday. 

The rep - Lonnie, an elderly gentleman in his 70s greeted us politely and walked us in his office.  Since we are still recuperating from our last visit in Canyon Lake which ended up longer than 8 hours + signing up for the $30k white presidential (which we later cancelled), we were certainly not interested in spending hours with these guys again.  We talked, we vented, we complained - Lonnie acted like he listened and kept pressuring his sales pitch and then it all went down...

Since we told him we are not interested in any of their "upgrades", he kept insisting and became that blood sucking pushy salesman.  You know what, I deal with clients and prospects on daily basis and if my prospect gets to a point where he/she has strictly said NO to something they don't really want or are comfortable with, you back off - this guy didn't. 

Long story short, we ended up getting his manager in, recorded our conversation in my phone, and we all walked away with high blood pressure. Once we got back to the front desk to rate their performance, Lindsay made sure she gave them an appropriate feedback (not that it matters).  Once we asked for our "$100 gift card", the rep blatantly lied to us and said, "our stay is our comp and we don't get a gift card - boy that made Lindsay mad.   

While I was "enjoying" the terrible so-called lunch they offered (I think it was supposed to be meat balls and lasanga), Lindsay made sure we got our gift card, strictly based on morals now.  We were ready to check out and go home after that "meeting" but we decided to take a quick look at our room that was assigned to us.  As soon as we stepped into our room, a nauseating smell hit us both, carpet was filthy, and I felt like I was back in my college days renting a cheap apartment for the weekend - so we decided to leave the hellhole. 

I'm pretty sure we will not be invited to these "freebies" anymore, especially the Seaside Resort in Galveston.  We have came to an understanding that timeshares CAN BE a good product or a great way for getaways, but they are not meant for us.  

Anyways, thanks everyone for your advice - these guys are tough sons-of-bitches and they take "sales" to a whole new level.

Name of the resort - Silverleaf's Seaside Resort
Rep Name - Lonnie (Last name not provided)


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## Passepartout (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks for the update. You might consider pitting the name of the resort prominently in the name and scattering it throughout your post so someone using Google will be directed to it. You would be doing a service to someone unknown to you. Just hit 'edit' then 'go advanced', edit away, and hit 'save'. 

Thanks. All the best. Believe me, all timeshares are not like that.

Jim


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## rjsin88 (Mar 25, 2014)

When we were originally invited to the Conroe Location (Piney Shores), the timeshare idea sounded great.  We CLEARLY explained the rep what our sole purpose of purchasing a timeshare would be- to be able to travel internationally. 
Once again, since I deal with clients and prospects (wealth management), when my prospect comes to me and tells me what he/she desires, I clearly listen to their needs, ask questions, and THEN present the solutions/idea. This rep at Piney Shores threw a product at us without even listening to our needs - he heard what we wanted, but didn't listen.  This is why we are stuck with what we have today.  Now everything we hear from these guys will come off as a lie, regardless of the fact if they are trying to "help" us out.  Helping us requires us to fork over more money.


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## DisneyDenis (Mar 26, 2014)

rjsin88 said:


> When we were originally invited to the Conroe Location (Piney Shores), the timeshare idea sounded great.  We CLEARLY explained the rep what our sole purpose of purchasing a timeshare would be- to be able to travel internationally.
> Once again, since I deal with clients and prospects (wealth management), when my prospect comes to me and tells me what he/she desires, I clearly listen to their needs, ask questions, and THEN present the solutions/idea. This rep at Piney Shores threw a product at us without even listening to our needs - he heard what we wanted, but didn't listen.  This is why we are stuck with what we have today.  Now everything we hear from these guys will come off as a lie, regardless of the fact if they are trying to "help" us out.  Helping us requires us to fork over more money.



I feel bad about your experiences ... However, I would like you to consider Disney DVC. While I do own 2 DVC contracts - I am NOT a salesman. Let me give you my reasons:

1. Timeshares are a real estate transaction and the mantra "location, location, location" applies. DVC is at the very best location in the world in terms of travel - Walt Disney World and Disneyland, besides 3 beach resorts (Vero Beach, Hilton Head, and Aulani - Hawaii).
2.  Many timeshares dramatically loose value after purchase. DVC has very strong resale value because of (1) above and Disney's ROFR policy that they do exercise. My personal experience: my $6K Boardwalk Villas purchase (100 points) after using it for 2 years and renting it another year - I can make a small profit if I chose to sell it today. After renting my Saratoga Springs Resort (WDW) contract for one year, I could sell it now and break even. My net cost was $61 a point (160 points). DVC has an active and healthy resale market.
3.  You can easily rent your DVC points fast and make a profit. I made $6 per point PROFIT after paying membership fees for two rentals totalling 391 points. So, the rentals paid my mfs and I could put the profit $$ on a cruise or pay a timeshare owner to rent their week or put the money in the bank and not vacation this year.
4.  DVC trades with RCI. You do not have to pay RCI to do the trade - just pay Disney $95. Caveat: the best use of points will always be at a US DVC resort, but you want to do international, so this is the way to do it.

Of course if you were really interested then the question Direct vs. Resale comes up. I bought both my contracts resale and under most situations I believe this is the way to go EXCEPT for 3 scenarios:

1.  You choose a new DVC resort that does not have any or very few resales available.  The resorts I am referring to are Villas at the Grand Floridian and the soon to be opened Polynesian DVC resort.
2.  You can not afford to pay the resale all at once and decide Disney financing is the way to go. Note on Disney financing: While Disney will do a credit check upon using/buying from them, Disney does not report any transactions to the credit agencies. That means your new $20K purchase at VGF does not show up on any credit report, nor will your payments.  The banks will not be aware of your timeshare mortgage !!!
3.  You want a rare small point contract and already own DVC. Example a 25 point Bay Lake Tower (at Contemporary Resort) or small points at Grand Californian. If there are any resales on these, they sell BEFORE they hit the internet or email - usually within an hour of contacting a broker !!!  Resale price with closing is close to Disney's price. 

SPECIAL NOTE:  DVC timeshare sales presentations have the absolute LOWEST level of pressure of ANY timeshare. When the "guide" knows you do not want to buy, he will thank you for coming and say "You can pick up your Mickey Ice Cream bars on the way out.  NEXT ...".  Does this mean the guide will not fib or exaggerate to get the sale - No, they do lie very politely. Know about DVC before the sales presentation.

Good Luck !!


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## DisneyDenis (Mar 26, 2014)

One last item I forgot to include above...

Disney DVCs expire on different dates. My Boardwalk in Feb 2042, my SSR in Feb 2054. The new DVCs are given 50 years.  This will give proper perspective on depreciation costs.  Many timeshares depreciate 100% in less than a day. Someone I admire gave an argument that DVC purchase should really be considered like an annuity in terms of cost.

One side benefit of this is that you, your children, grandchildren, etc. do not have ever increasing membership fees to pay throughout all eternity !!!


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