# Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]



## mm251

We attended Marriott Ko Olina presentation yesterday.  According to the sales representative, Marriott will be releasing new ownership use rules in June.  The new rules will likely change the priority of bookings for any owners that did not buy directly from Marriott.  If so, I believe the net effect would be to de-value the timeshare resale price.  

Accordingly, "they are trying to protect owners that purchased directly from Marriott".  Of course, "external sales owners would still retain title, but may end up on the first floor at a time they do not wish to visit."

I have no idea if it is just a sales pitch, "telling it like it is" as the rep said, or what.

Has anyone heard this presentation?


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## london

*Sales Pitch*



mm251 said:


> We attended Marriott Ko Olina presentation yesterday.  According to the sales representative, Marriott will be releasing new ownership use rules in June.  The new rules will likely change the priority of bookings for any owners that did not buy directly from Marriott.  If so, I believe the net effect would be to de-value the timeshare resale price.
> 
> Accordingly, "they are trying to protect owners that purchased directly from Marriott".  Of course, "external sales owners would still retain title, but may end up on the first floor at a time they do not wish to visit."
> 
> I have no idea if it is just a sales pitch, "telling it like it is" as the rep said, or what.
> 
> Has anyone heard this presentation?



Most likely a tainted sales pitch. Scare tactic. 

There are thousands of Marriott owners who purchased resale.


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## brigechols

bal⋅der⋅dash [bawl-der-dash]

–noun
1. 	senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense.


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## DeniseM

What possible motivation could a salesman for the developer have for telling a big whopper like that?


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## sjuhawk_jd

mm251 said:


> We attended Marriott Ko Olina presentation yesterday.  According to the sales representative, Marriott will be releasing new ownership use rules in June.  The new rules will likely change the priority of bookings for any owners that did not buy directly from Marriott.  If so, I believe the net effect would be to de-value the timeshare resale price.
> 
> Accordingly, "they are trying to protect owners that purchased directly from Marriott".  Of course, "external sales owners would still retain title, but may end up on the first floor at a time they do not wish to visit."
> 
> I have no idea if it is just a sales pitch, "telling it like it is" as the rep said, or what.
> 
> Has anyone heard this presentation?



Here we go again!


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## SueDonJ

While I think that nothing any salesperson says about a particular future change should be accepted as gospel, I do think that we've heard from enough different sources now to accept that something is definitely in the air for sometime around June.  It doesn't seem like it would hurt to keep our ears open for the kernels of truth that may be catalysts for rumors, don't you think?  I'd rather be able to anticipate that something is going to happen, whatever it may be, than pretend that all we're hearing means absolutely nothing.

[edit]  Though I will say that without the info (limited as it was) that Dave got from his insider source and posted to TUG, I wouldn't be nearly as interested in the rumors.  Dave carries a certain validity, IMO.


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## Bill4728

If later this year, Marriott does start a point based system, they can ( and sounds like will) have different rules /cost to join the system.  

BUT the idea that Marriott can " change the priority of bookings for any owners that did not buy directly from Marriott." is BULL. They just can not do that.


PS  At this time I'd tell any salesperson "Why would I even think of buying now when you just said that all the rules will be changing this summer?  I'll wait till summer and see if this new program is something I'd like. "


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## NWL

My gut feeling is the OP has an ulterior motive in posting.   

Don't fall for it folks.  

Cheers!


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## SueDonJ

Bill4728 said:


> ... PS  At this time I'd tell any salesperson "Why would I even think of buying now when you just said that all the rules will be changing this summer?  I'll wait till summer and see if this new program is something I'd like. "



Exactly!  Except I'd take that a step further and apply it to any Marriott resale purchase, too (if I was thinking about it, which I'm not.)  There have been too many indicators for changes this year to make me comfortable with any Marriott purchase.  That's why I don't understand why any possible (probable, IMO) changes this year aren't factored as heavily as the current favorable economic conditions, when discussions about resales happen here.


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## kjd

Right on Bill!  Let's face it.  When Marriott gave up their use of ROFR it was unable to stop the flood of resale inventory created by the recession.  When you have a product that can't distinguish itself between new and used you cannot expect to sell at prices more than double or triple the declining resale value.  

The resale market has broken to the downside and there is nothing to suggest that it will recover anytime soon.  Economists tell us that when supply equals demand the prices will stabilize.  With high maintenance fees a lot of folks have decided that owning a timeshare is just not worth it.  They are voting with their feet.  They're leaving and probably won't return.  Much like the disenchanted boat owners.

Changing systems or punishing current owners will only result in the further lowering of prices.  Marriott needs resale buyers to pay the maintenance fees.  Why turn them into sellers? 

It's entirely possible for Marriott to abandon the timeshare business as we know it.  Many of their properties were jointly developed with other companies (Eg: MGC/Glen Carbon) with Marriott as the management.  Sort of like their hotel business.  Marriott is essentially a property manager and hotelier.  They may revert to it with a revised business plan.  I doubt that the sales people are talking about that possibility.


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## littlestar

If Marriott devalues their timeshare product with this new system, then every Marriott owner better start worrying about owners walking away from paying Marriott's maintenance fees. 

I hope they do like Hilton Vacation Club does, but from the sounds of that survey they sent out last year, it doesn't sound like they will.  I've debated getting out now, but I only own an EOY so I don't have much to lose.  I'll wait and then if I have to, I'll pay somebody to take my Marriott week if the new system totally stinks.


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## Stefa

NWL said:


> My gut feeling is the OP has an ulterior motive in posting.
> 
> Don't fall for it folks.
> 
> Cheers!



I won't speculate on that.  I seem to recall another thread where someone was told by a salesperson at Ko'Olina that resale owners would get a lower priority when booking their week.   Sounds like the same source.  

There is really no reason for Marriott to do this.  Most people buy from the developer because they don't realize resales are so much cheaper.  Those people will buy no matter what.  The only potential buyers whose decision  would be effected by such a system are those who know about resales and it is likely they would be even less inclined to purchase developer since they would understand the resale value would be very low for a unit with a booking penalty.


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## ldanna

sjuhawk_jd said:


> Here we go again!



Those are my words, too.

I would like to say that last year I bought 2 Marriotts weeks, both resales. Marriott just treat me with a high quality service during the transfer, reservation, and all my stays (exchanges and getaways). 

I really don't think Marriott is that kind of company that would hurt any of their custmers. Time will tell us if I am right or not.


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## Powerguy

A resale buyers deed is the same as a direct buyers deed as they were both originally purchased from Marriott. If Marriott tries to make changes that benefits one owner over another based on whether the unit is a resale of not will open a flood of lawsuits against Marriott.


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## thinze3

This is exactly why I chose NOT to do the 90 minute tour this past Sunday at Grand Chateau. I know too much about the Marriott system (thanks partly to Tug) and am too hard headed to just sit there and take it. Ultimately it could have been ugly. :annoyed: 

I actually had a presentation scheduled and cancelled 2 hours before going.


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## timeos2

*They would be on the wrong side of a little thing called legal rights of owners*



mm251 said:


> We attended Marriott Ko Olina presentation yesterday.  According to the sales representative, Marriott will be releasing new ownership use rules in June.  The new rules will likely change the priority of bookings for any owners that did not buy directly from Marriott.  If so, I believe the net effect would be to de-value the timeshare resale price.
> 
> Accordingly, "they are trying to protect owners that purchased directly from Marriott".  Of course, "external sales owners would still retain title, but may end up on the first floor at a time they do not wish to visit."
> 
> I have no idea if it is just a sales pitch, "telling it like it is" as the rep said, or what.
> 
> Has anyone heard this presentation?



While nothing can't and won't be tried by desperate sellers giving priority to a group based on HOW they purchased (resale or retail) is not something they could get away with. Under any type of legal challenge they would not be able to prove any difference in the owners thus two different types of rights would not stand up. If it were possible to make that type of change to a deeded ownership you can be sure Wyndham would have done it years ago as they are the poster child for devalued resales. But they can't - nor could Marriott or any other seller/management - as your rights to reservations are guaranteed as part of the original prospectus. That is one document that is sacrosanct in condo/timeshare sales and owners rights. No one can change it after you buy according to those rights. No one. And certainly not for a reason like obtaining your legally acquired rights from another owner (resale) rather than the developer / management (retail). 

They could try it if they are stupid enough to think they are bigger than the law but they would lose once it was challenged. And they would pay for the damage done to anyone who was impacted by it. It can't hold up even if it happened.


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## newowner

I too attended a presentation at Ko Olina recently.  When I asked the question - why purchase retail vs seondary, I was told the following:

1) Secondary purchasers can not exchange weeks for Marriott Reward points (which I understand to be true).
2) Secondary purchasers will be given less optimal units than retail purchasers (my guess is that this is nonsense).
3) That later this year, the exchange system will be changed, and that secondary purchasers will not be able to benefit from a 24 day Marriott exclusivity period when making exchanges through Interval International.  I don't see how they could get away with this.


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## chriskre

I don't understand why Marriott would do such a thing to it's owners.

If a salesperson tells me that my unit which if need be, had to be resold and that my buyer of my resale unit would not have rights that they should have had with the title transfer, why would I buy from Marriott in the first place. 

I think this would scare away anyone thinking of buying a Marriott.  

In these uncertain times you never know if you will need to resell.  

Marriott would be shooting themselves in the foot with stupid rules like this.


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## DanCali

Take a look at posts 1-4 in this thread:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114724

In post 1 the OP states he was told resale buyers have no 13 month rule. In post 4 the Marriott rep did not put this in writing...

This is just a scare tactic and you can find many similar threads over the years. I find it had to believe they cannot treat owners in the same resort and season differently. If you own Platinum season at NCV you get whatever a Platinum season owner is entitled to according to the bylaws.

Since it is obvious any discrimination against resale buyers would impact resale values, I'd go back to the sales office and tell the salesperson that you don't see a reason to buy retail if they are going to initiate policies which devalue resales and would make you lose 90% of your "investment" on an eventual resale... A model based on selling to ignorant people (who don't know of the resale market) cannot persist in the internet age and with a 7-10 day right or recission.


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## dougp26364

This makes twice I've heard this date of June. Once here and once on the Ocean Pointe Yahoo group. Apparently Fletch mentioned in his Marriott no more thread. I'm still of the opinion that I'll believe it when I see it and, when I see it, it will need to be either free or a very reasonable price with benefits that make me want to change to a different reservation system. 

Of course, the big question is, did they say which year?

Here's the link to Fletch's thread with the post about points in June. It's on page two first post on that page. http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115046&page=2


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## Beverley

newowner said:


> 3) That later this year, the exchange system will be changed, and that secondary purchasers will not be able to benefit from a 24 day Marriott exclusivity period when making exchanges through Interval International.  I don't see how they could get away with this.



Is the 24 day deposit/ reservation period with II a guaranteed "right" of ownership?  I am not sure it enters in to any of our agreements. More likely it si written somewhere they have the right to change or scrap it.  Not sure if that would extend to changing introducing a preference system to developer bought versus secondary market purchases.

Beverley


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## Dave M

Although I don't believe the salesperson referred to in the OP was accurate, particularly with respect to assigning units at a home resort, the salesperson was almost certainly accurate that big changes are forthcoming.

It is pretty clear that Marriott will be making some changes in June or, if the new program is delayed, sometime soon thereafter. What will the new program be? We don't know very much. What does seem pretty clear is that there will be a points program that will apply to many (most?) future timeshare sales by Marriott, will involve exchanging based on points and will be available to current Marriott timeshare owners - for a price. That price is supposed to be nominal (whatever that means) for those who have purchased their timeshares from Marriott and probably quite a bit more expensive for those who have purchased resale. The changes are not likely to affect the privileges that we are all guaranteed by the legal documents of our respective resorts. Rather they will likely offer an exchanging “enhancement” for those who wish to participate.

How do we know that some big changes are coming? We first heard about the changes almost two years ago. I have had some clearly-in-the-know Marriott people confirm those changes to me on several occasions over the past two years and I reported that information here each time. What we are now hearing is about the same as what I originally heard way back when. The only difference is that the effective date has been delayed by about six months, not unreasonable for such a big project in a down economy. Further, Fletch, a much respected member of the TUG community in past years who has just resigned from a very lucrative sales position at Marriott, has confirmed that a new program will be forthcoming this year (see the above link to his posts).

All we can do is wait to see what the details are and continue to speculate.

As to whether the changes will be good or bad, I'm certain the answer is a resounding YES! There is no way to be sure, but I'm guessing that platinum week owners at top resorts who bought from Marriott will love the new program and resale owners of bronze and silver weeks will hate it.


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## mm251

*Interesting responses to Mariott sales pitch.*

I see this is not a new thread, although I have seldom read the forum. I posted because, as a resale owner, I was quite unnerved by the portended change.  I hope the skeptics are correct and this is nothing more than an ineffective sales tactic.  I did tell the salesperson that if that was the way the company treated owners, I certainly would not buy resale or otherwise. The impact on value for either owner or Marriott would not be beneficial. Doesn't make sense does it?

I would also be cynical of this post and its intent, had I not made the posting. Whether Marriott can or will make any changes remains to be seen.  It is helpful to read the replies.  

With the exception of the presentation, we are still enjoying a wonderful time at Ko Olina and have received exceptional service.


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## dougp26364

I see change as just being change. When change happens it will make me have to rethink how I manage my ownership and how I manage my exchanges. 

Right now I own in two points based reservations systems. Hilton had their system when I purchased throught them. Diamond resorts bought the Sunterra system and made it available to Polo Towers owner when they intergrated Polo Towers into Sunterra's existing portfolio. The change with DRI took a little getting use to but, there were very good benefits that made the change worth it. Essentially, my DRI weeks had become strictly exchange weeks and points provided greater value.

Now how it will look when Marriott finally makes a change I can't say. We use our master suite at Ocean Pointe and exchange the studio portion. The studio portion is typically exchanged for a cheap long weekend getaway. Will I be able to use points and stretch that value into two long weekends? Will the points from that silver season studio not be enough to get the one bedrooms I've been pulling using the weeks exchange program in place now? Only time will tell and, that will in part determine what I think of any new program. 

Now our ownership at Grand Chateau might be a little different. It's a platinum 3 bedroom that we've used request first exchanges the past two years and, I plan on doing that again this year. While we enjoy the resort and Vegas is an acceptable vacation for March, we've started branching out and trying new places we haven't been to before. It will be interesting to see what benefits a points program (assuming that's what Marriott is planning) will have for our usage of this resort. 

In the end, the most important part will be cost vs benefit. In my mind I've already paid Marriott in full. If new buyers are automatically granted access to any points based reservation system I'm not going to be to thrilled if I have to pay yet another premium to also be included in any new internal exchange system. While I'll remain a wait and see skeptic I am curious as to what they plan on rolling out. Heck, it might even be worth sitting through a presentation for the next month when we're in Hawaii. At the very least maybe go to the wine/cheese owners update (non-sales persentation) to see if anything is said. As a bonus I'd be happy to take any incentive they might offer. Nothing like getting a little information and getting a premium for my time as well.


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## dioxide45

There are only two groups of people who have a problem with people who bought or are buying resale, sale people and some people who bought developer. Marriott as a whole, Owner Services and resort staff, could really care less how you bought.

When June comes and goes with no changes, as I would rate at about a 80% chance, those who said that these changes will happen will say that deadlines change and talk about how big changes take time to implement and hammer out causing the delays. We have heard this and excuses for delays for years now, why is June 2010 any different?


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## David10225

*New Survey Yesterday*

I got a survey from MVC yesterday.  The survey was geared around how you partake of various activities in a resort and how you would make use of the kitchen if your stay was for 3 days or less vs 4 days or more.  

If you add that into the points rumors, sounds like they are going to differentiate weekend points from weekday points (similar to what Disney does). 

Of course this is just my interpretation of the survey questions.

David


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## Twinkstarr

Dave M said:


> Although I don't believe the salesperson referred to in the OP was accurate, particularly with respect to assigning units at a home resort, the salesperson was almost certainly accurate that big changes are forthcoming.
> 
> It is pretty clear that Marriott will be making some changes in June or, if the new program is delayed, sometime soon thereafter. What will the new program be? We don't know very much. What does seem pretty clear is that there will be a points program that will apply to many (most?) future timeshare sales by Marriott, will involve exchanging based on points and will be available to current Marriott timeshare owners - for a price. That price is supposed to be nominal (whatever that means) for those who have purchased their timeshares from Marriott and probably quite a bit more expensive for those who have purchased resale. The changes are not likely to affect the privileges that we are all guaranteed by the legal documents of our respective resorts. Rather they will likely offer an exchanging “enhancement” for those who wish to participate.
> 
> How do we know that some big changes are coming? We first heard about the changes almost two years ago. I have had some clearly-in-the-know Marriott people confirm those changes to me on several occasions over the past two years and I reported that information here each time. What we are now hearing is about the same as what I originally heard way back when. The only difference is that the effective date has been delayed by about six months, not unreasonable for such a big project in a down economy. Further, Fletch, a much respected member of the TUG community in past years who has just resigned from a very lucrative sales position at Marriott, has confirmed that a new program will be forthcoming this year (see the above link to his posts).
> 
> All we can do is wait to see what the details are and continue to speculate.
> 
> As to whether the changes will be good or bad, I'm certain the answer is a resounding YES! There is no way to be sure, but I'm guessing that platinum week owners at top resorts who bought from Marriott will love the new program and resale owners of bronze and silver weeks will hate it.




I think if you have bronze or silver weeks bought anyway you are probably going to hate it.  I came to this conclusion  when we talked to a Marriott sales person(one of Fletch's office mates) when we were considering a platinum Marriott week at Surfwatch or Oceanwatch. I asked about the "system" and he did indicate that they had hired a few people from other TS companies that use points to develop the Marriott system.


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## billymach4

dioxide45 said:


> There are only two groups of people who have a problem with people who bought or are buying resale, sale people and some people who bought developer. Marriott as a whole, Owner Services and resort staff, could really care less how you bought.
> 
> When June comes and goes with no changes, as I would rate at about a 80% chance, those who said that these changes will happen will say that deadlines change and talk about how big changes take time to implement and hammer out causing the delays. We have heard this and excuses for delays for years now, why is June 2010 any different?



I am with you Dioxide. I have heard of these so called changes since 2006, and I understand they go way back even further than 2006. While we have some very good inside information here, I am of the opinion that all of these so called changes are self perpetuating. 

We here on Tug tend to generate these rumors, Marriott Corp can easily tip off someone that can spread like fire over the net, at a sales presentation. In fact I would not even put it past MVCI to intentionally test the waters by seeking Marketing information from the experts right here on TUG. 

Marriott would have to be insane, even suicidal if they were to even contemplate any changes in this down economy. I agree that the economy is on the upswing, however the Travel, Leisure, Timeshare sector will lag for years to come. The only thing Marriott has going for it is its loyal owners. Why would they even attempt to make a change that could and likely would backfire in their face?


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## GrayFal

The thing I am concerned about the most is giving up control - just go over to the Starwood board and read how Starwood has now taken away the right of owners to deposit reserved weeks in II - everything is now a 'generic' deposit.
They have also downgraded many ownerships with II all for the purpose of keeping owners within the Starwood StarOption (point) system.

Instead of a week deposit - they deposit a 'level'
Plat +, Plat, Gold +, Gold, Silver

My summer myrtle beach ownership that used to trade fabulously into other SVN resorts as well as other II resorts and was in Platinum season has now been arbitrarily rated as Gold + under then new II/SVN contract - the same as June & Sept in the Arizona desert....yeah, right! That's a real equal valuation....:annoyed: 

II values Arizona June and Sept as 75 out of 150 demand and Summer Myrtle Beach as 150 out of 150 

This is where my concerns lie - that and the fact that be penalizing resale owners by charging them a 'significant amount' to join a points program will make our weeks worth even less - because everyones ownership will eventually be someone elses resale.


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## SueDonJ

Beverley said:


> Is the 24 day deposit/ reservation period with II a guaranteed "right" of ownership?  I am not sure it enters in to any of our agreements. More likely it si written somewhere they have the right to change or scrap it.  Not sure if that would extend to changing introducing a preference system to developer bought versus secondary market purchases.
> 
> Beverley



No, the only thing guaranteed by the ownership docs is a right to exchange, whether it's privately or through an exchange company.  Owners don't have any say in which (if any) exchange company MVCI elects to contract with and/or ownership rights to demand that certain provisions be included in such a contract.

Do we know when the current contract between MVCI and II is due to expire?  Folks have speculated that if they don't join the rumored points program then they will be able to continue as is with II.  What if MVCI elects to not renew the existing contract with II and enters into a new one with different terms, or doesn't continue with II at all?


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## Stefa

I can't imagine a reason Marriott would not wish to be affiliated with an exchange company.  It is a nice perk for owners even when a well-functioning internal system is in place.  

The bottom line is Marriott has a lot of power in this situation and there are any number of things they could do to devalue our ownerships.  The reality is they don't have any reason (and I can't believe any desire) to to this needlessly.   The new system (if/when it happens) will have a negative impact on some ownerships, but I don't believe Marriott is out to screw owners just so they can say they did.  

Maybe I'm naive, but things like the 24 day preference make Marriott look good to other timeshare owners and that can only benefit Marriott.


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## timeos2

*Down the road of misinformation and lies*



dioxide45 said:


> There are only two groups of people who have a problem with people who bought or are buying resale, sale people and some people who bought developer. Marriott as a whole, Owner Services and resort staff, could really care less how you bought.
> 
> When June comes and goes with no changes, as I would rate at about a 80% chance, those who said that these changes will happen will say that deadlines change and talk about how big changes take time to implement and hammer out causing the delays. We have heard this and excuses for delays for years now, why is June 2010 any different?



It is beginning to sound like the changes in June will revolve around a new points based system (long overdue and expected from Marriott).  While technically that may have some impact on reservations, as in those that choose to convert or add (whatever they decide to call membership in the new system) will no longer have inventory in the "old" system and it would be within the rights of Marriott to sell memberships to the Points system with a different price to retail buyers vs resale (as it is an option for yet another exchange there is nothing that prevents them from doing that).  But none of that should impact the base rights that an existing owner - resale or retail - has now or would continue to have going forward.  Having some of the weeks assigned to a new points based, internal system is no different than weeks being assigned to II or RCI. Either way the week is no longer in the available assignment pool as it has been "used" for potential trade. 

It is a word game from sales to further confuse buyers and scare them off of resale purchase. Marriott just continues to spiral down the typical timeshare presentation of half truths, outright lies and pressure sales. They used to be above that but hard times seem to have changed their approach toward the typical Wastegate, Wyndham, et al garbage.  If you attend one expect the worst.


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## SueDonJ

Of course the reason Marriott would want to "take over" some/all of the exchange business now being done through II is to generate revenue - several people in the various threads here demonstrated exactly how that could happen, and Fletch said it, too, in the thread linked here.

I understand how an exchange system that gives a priority to direct purchasers can ultimately hurt every owner by devaluing weeks on the resale market.  But I also understand that Marriott has been dealing with and needs to combat devaluations of developer weeks.  It isn't just the current economic climate that has slowed Marriott sales.  Over the last ten years the resale market has become much more mainstream, mainly through the now-common internet usage, and Marriott has watched more and more would-be developer purchasers buy their weeks externally.  It only makes good business sense that they would be developing ways to increase the usage value of their product, and it appears that an internal exchange system that places a premium on developer weeks could be one way to do that.

Several years ago Marriott somehow managed, despite the contracts, to give multi-week owners an ownership advantage over single-week owners.  Though I don't know if they WILL manage to figure out something which gives an advantage of some sort to developer weeks over resale weeks, I do believe that they CAN.  It's obvious they've spent already quite a bit of time and resources to consider it - if it was as impossible as some here speculate, the idea would have been abandoned a long time ago.


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## timeos2

*Don't worry. Be happy*



SueDonJ said:


> Do we know when the current contract between MVCI and II is due to expire?  Folks have speculated that if they don't join the rumored points program then they will be able to continue as is with II.  What if MVCI elects to not renew the existing contract with II and enters into a new one with different terms, or doesn't continue with II at all?



Once a resort is in II (or RCI) the deeded owners cannot be forced to use a different exchange company if they don't wish to. It is different when dealing with RTU type ownerships such as DVC or Diamond Club but for weeks owners they cannot be "disavowed" from whatever company they had when the original week was purchased. New options such as another company or points can be added but the original option cannot be taken away. That's why some Marriott resorts are II & RCI as the RCI option was there at purchase and can never be removed. Don't worry about it.


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## timeos2

*Here today maybe gone tomorrow*



Stefa said:


> I can't imagine a reason Marriott would not wish to be affiliated with an exchange company.  It is a nice perk for owners even when a well-functioning internal system is in place.
> 
> The bottom line is Marriott has a lot of power in this situation and there are any number of things they could do to devalue our ownerships.  The reality is they don't have any reason (and I can't believe any desire) to to this needlessly.   The new system (if/when it happens) will have a negative impact on some ownerships, but I don't believe Marriott is out to screw owners just so they can say they did.
> 
> Maybe I'm naive, but things like the 24 day preference make Marriott look good to other timeshare owners and that can only benefit Marriott.



There is no guarantee that any preference with II, or any other exchange, would be maintained. It could be but if Marriott felt that it helps their potential sales of whatever new, assumedly internal (read $$ for them) to remove that perk they can and will do so.  There is nothing in any documents guaranteeing an exchange preference so it is an at will type bonus.


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## SueDonJ

timeos2 said:


> Once a resort is in II (or RCI) the deeded owners cannot be forced to use a different exchange company if they don't wish to. It is different when dealing with RTU type ownerships such as DVC or Diamond Club but for weeks owners they cannot be "disavowed" from whatever company they had when the original week was purchased. New options such as another company or points can be added but the original option cannot be taken away. That's why some Marriott resorts are II & RCI as the RCI option was there at purchase and can never be removed. Don't worry about it.



I'm not sure I understand.  This is from one of my deeds, similar language is in the ownership docs:


> EXCHANGE PROGRAM
> Seller has entered into an agreement with II, Inc. ... Seller has retained the right to change its exchange program affiliation at a future date.



Once in II, always in II?  Sure, if the owner chooses to continue with II.  But MVCI isn't forced to continue a contract with II for every week purchased while an MVCI/II contract was in effect.  So if MVCI elects not to continue with II, what protections does an owner have that the existing exchange provisions will apply if s/he contracts individually with II?  I don't think any.


----------



## GrayFal

GrayFal said:


> The thing I am concerned about the most is giving up control - just go over to the Starwood board and read how Starwood has now taken away the right of owners to deposit reserved weeks in II - everything is now a 'generic' deposit.
> They have also downgraded many ownerships with II all for the purpose of keeping owners within the Starwood StarOption (point) system.
> 
> Instead of a week deposit - they deposit a 'level'
> Plat +, Plat, Gold +, Gold, Silver
> 
> My summer myrtle beach ownership that used to trade fabulously into other SVN resorts as well as other II resorts and was in Platinum season has now been arbitrarily rated as Gold + under then new II/SVN contract - the same as June & Sept in the Arizona desert....yeah, right! That's a real equal valuation....:annoyed:
> 
> II values Arizona June and Sept as 75 out of 150 demand and Summer Myrtle Beach as 150 out of 150
> 
> This is where my concerns lie - that and the fact that be penalizing resale owners by charging them a 'significant amount' to join a points program will make our weeks worth even less - because everyones ownership will eventually be someone elses resale.





timeos2 said:


> *There is no guarantee that any preference with II, or any other exchange, would be maintained*. It could be but if Marriott felt that it helps their potential sales of whatever new, assumedly internal (read $$ for them) to remove that perk they can and will do so.  There is nothing in any documents guaranteeing an exchange preference so it is an at will type bonus.





timeos2 said:


> *Once a resort is in II (or RCI) the deeded owners cannot be forced to use a different exchange company if they don't wish to*. It is different when dealing with RTU type ownerships such as DVC or Diamond Club but for weeks owners they cannot be "disavowed" from whatever company they had when the original week was purchased. New options such as another company or points can be added but the original option cannot be taken away. That's why some Marriott resorts are II & RCI as the RCI option was there at purchase and can never be removed. Don't worry about it.



Read my post above - Starwood has significantly changed how owners now interact with II - effectively taking away their right to reserve a week and deposit it into II. II is also complicete in this by agreeing to this arrangement EVEN FOR NON-SVN OWNERS with non-SVN accounts.

It is a slippery slope....


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## timeos2

*Once II or RCI always II or RCI or both*



SueDonJ said:


> I'm not sure I understand.  This is from one of my deeds, similar language is in the ownership docs:
> 
> 
> Once in II, always in II?  Sure, if the owner chooses to continue with II.  But MVCI isn't forced to continue a contract with II for every week purchased while an MVCI/II contract was in effect.  So if MVCI elects not to continue with II, what protections does an owner have that the existing exchange provisions will apply if s/he contracts individually with II?  I don't think any.



The owner has the absolute right to the use/trade/rental of the deeded week(s). No matter if Marriott has an agreement with II (or RCI or whoever) or not the owner can place that time with the exchange of their choice. Only RCI & II have the requirement that the resort had signed an affiliation at some point in time but once they did the ability to deposit your week(s) with that company never ends UNLESS the company decides to drop the resort (which would only be if it fails to meet that companies minimum standards for affiliation). The resort cannot drop the exchange company.  If you turn over your week to control of the management/developer (as currently seems to be the case with DRI Club which requires new buyers into Club to give up their deeded weeks and become members in the Trust) then you lose the ability to deposit with any company except those approved by the Club.  We don't know how Marriott plans to handle whatever points program they appear to be ready to announce but in any case it doesn't affect those that say with their deeded ownerships.


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## pianodinosaur

I think the wisest move for Marriott would be to treat the resale owners the same way they treat the people who purchased directly from Marriott. Both kinds of owners pay exactly the same MFs.


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## TheTimeTraveler

Doesn't Marriott own or control a piece of Interval International?

Is Marriott the only Timeshare Company that has Interval International exchange desks on their (Marriott's) premises?


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## SueDonJ

timeos2 said:


> The owner has the absolute right to the use/trade/rental of the deeded week(s). No matter if Marriott has an agreement with II (or RCI or whoever) or not the owner can place that time with the exchange of their choice. Only RCI & II have the requirement that the resort had signed an affiliation at some point in time but once they did the ability to deposit your week(s) with that company never ends UNLESS the company decides to drop the resort (which would only be if it fails to meet that companies minimum standards for affiliation). The resort cannot drop the exchange company.  If you turn over your week to control of the management/developer (as currently seems to be the case with DRI Club which requires new buyers into Club to give up their deeded weeks and become members in the Trust) then you lose the ability to deposit with any company except those approved by the Club.  We don't know how Marriott plans to handle whatever points program they appear to be ready to announce but in any case it doesn't affect those that say with their deeded ownerships.



John, I'm not sure where we are agreeing and disagreeing here.  Agreed, the deeded right to exchange - whether privately with other owners or through an individual contract with any exchange company, or through the exchange company with which MVCI contracts - can never be revoked.

But the ownership docs are clear in that the current agreement between MVCI (as Developer, Seller and management company) isn't a binding one.  For SurfWatch again, this time from the Time Sharing Plan:


> ... the Developer reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to change its affiliation to another exchange company at a future date, and any such change will not be deemed a material change. The Purchaser's participation in the internal or external exchange program is voluntary and the use of either such exchange program is subject to availability of other timeshare interests in the exchange network, rules, regulations, terms, and other restrictions (including transaction fees) which may be set by Interval from time to time.



IF Marriott implements the rumored internal exchange system which will siphon inventory from II, of course those owners who choose to stay with II will be affected just from the reduced exchange availability.  But the reason I'm asking about the MVCI/II contract effective date is that the possibility exists for it to be dissolved or amended such that those owners who do not join Marriott's points program could be even more negatively affected.  I'm confused by what you're saying - do you think the existing contract can't be dissolved/amended?


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## DanCali

GrayFal said:


> The thing I am concerned about the most is giving up control - just go over to the Starwood board and read how Starwood has now taken away the right of owners to deposit reserved weeks in II - everything is now a 'generic' deposit.
> They have also downgraded many ownerships with II all for the purpose of keeping owners within the Starwood StarOption (point) system.





timeos2 said:


> There is no guarantee that any preference with II, or any other exchange, would be maintained. It could be but if Marriott felt that it helps their potential sales of whatever new, assumedly internal (read $$ for them) to remove that perk they can and will do so.  There is nothing in any documents guaranteeing an exchange preference so it is an at will type bonus.



I hate speculation and I'm of a similar opinion as dioxide45 and billymach4. I'll believe it when I see it, and I think it would be a terrible idea since so many owners love the current system. Just compare the satisfaction surveys of Marriott versus Starwood...

Since it's been brought up, here is an example of how the Starwood policy would work in the Marriott world. I'll use NCV as an example, but you will get the idea... :

Owners depositing in II don't choose the week to deposit. In fact, even if you had a good reservation you need to cancel it prior to depositing. You would deposit a generic Platinum week and get a trading power equal to the average trading power of the season. For Platinum owners that means weeks 23-52. For Gold owners it would be the average of weeks 1-22. This may help some and hurt others. This may or may not include Platinum Plus weeks 26 and 52 but those owners are a small minority by definition. Marriott would retain control of what actually goes into II - obviously the intent would be to keep the "good" weeks for internal exchanges (that's why under this policy they would want weeks 26 and 52, although it's officially a different "season") so summer weeks will hardly make it to II and owners from other resorts using II will not get NCV summer weeks no matter how strong their deposit. All this of course, promotes usage of an internal system and allegedly props up retail sales. 

However, any attempt to discriminate against resale buyers will hurt resale values. Most owners will realize this and will be quite vocal about it - which will hurt Marriott's retail sales. There are only so many units they can sell to buyers who are totally clueless about the resale market, especially when there is a right of recission involved. The "installed base" is too large to be ignored. 

A completely different approach to promote retail sales would be to copy a different page from Starwood's book. For example, allow retail buyers to "retro" a resale unit (i.e., buy a retail unit and also get the ability to convert to hotel points on your resale unit). They can create an "Elite" program for multiple week owners with substantial perks (upgrades, waitlisting for reservations, no lockoff fee, no hotel point conversion fee, etc). Owners who will value these perks may view it beneficial to buy more weeks retail - and they already have a large customer base that likes the product. This is a better way that allows retail and resale markets to co-exist at different prices.  

Ultimately they will do what they think is best for them - and they probably know better than us...


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> IF Marriott implements the rumored internal exchange system which will siphon inventory from II, of course those owners who choose to stay with II will be affected just from the reduced exchange availability.  But the reason I'm asking about the MVCI/II contract effective date is that the possibility exists for it to be dissolved or amended such that those owners who do not join Marriott's points program could be even more negatively affected.  I'm confused by what you're saying - do you think the existing contract can't be dissolved/amended?



If it comes up for renewal it can be amended. That's when they can probably remove the 24 day priority for example. However, II may want to keep in in place just to get Marriott deposits...

I don't think they would want to dissolve it if anything for retail sale purposes. They need to sell prospective owners on the ability to trade to "thousands of resorts worldwide".


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## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> If it comes up for renewal it can be amended. That's when they can probably remove the 24 day priority for example. However, II may want to keep in in place just to get Marriott deposits...
> 
> I don't think they would want to dissolve it if anything for retail sale purposes. They need to sell prospective owners on the ability to trade to "thousands of resorts worldwide".



That's what I thought, that it can be amended or dissolved.  I also wouldn't expect them to dissolve it and not put another agreement with a different exchange company in its place.  Agreed, the "thousands worldwide" is a major selling point but that isn't only available with II.  My opinion is that IF they implement this points program, owners will be more likely to consider it if they know that the current, familiar exchange system will not be available to them.


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## Stefa

It is likely they will do something to devalue the II trade option.  It may be a situation like with Starwood where they control what gets deposited.   Under such an arrangement the best weeks would be saved for internal exchangers and only the less desirable weeks would find their way into Interval outside of flexchange.


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## Latravel

Come on everyone!  You are asking why Marriott would make changes in this economic climate and why they would treat resale and developer sales differently.  It's to increase sales and the performance of their company!!!

They have to offer new products.  They have to be creative and change the way they do business because it's stagnant right now.  

They have to treat resale and developer purchases differently or why else would anyone buy directly from them?  They have to give people a reason to pay more money for the same product and the only way they can do that is offer more perks, like points, better reservations, whatever.  It seems like points isn't enough so they are trying new options.

They can't just think about Joe from Kansas who spent only $2000 on a silver resale unit.  They have to think about ways to make people part with $30,000 and up.  

It makes perfect sense and it should have been expected from a profitable global company.


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## Stefa

I would be less likely to part with $30,000 if I knew Marriott was actively working to devalue my new purchase.


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## DanCali

Latravel said:


> They have to treat resale and developer purchases differently or why else would anyone buy directly from them?



Why would anyone buy from them if they treat resale units differently and consequently drive resale values to zero? 

The only way to sell a product that loses 90% the day you buy it is to sell it to someone who is unaware of the resale value. How sustainable is that model when people have internet access and 7-10 days to rescind?

I guess this applies to today's situation and also strengthens the argument that changes have to come. Personally, I don't think that changes that have an adverse impact on resale values help Marriott's cause.


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## dive-in

I usually just skim speculation/rumor threads so sorry if I missed these questions previously.  


Will my MVCI property be devalued on the resale market if it is converted to a points system?  Or, put another way, would the value MVCI property be greater as a week or a points system?
If the owners at a particular resort aren't happy with the new system, what prevents them from getting rid of Marriott?

Darrell


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## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Why would anyone buy from them if they treat resale units differently and consequently drive resale values to zero?
> 
> The only way to sell a product that loses 90% the day you buy it is to sell it to someone who is unaware of the resale value. How sustainable is that model when people have internet access and 7-10 days to rescind?
> 
> I guess this applies to today's situation and also strengthens the argument that changes have to come. Personally, I don't think that changes that have an adverse impact on resale values help Marriott's cause.



Considering Marriott's cause is to sell developer inventory at such a rate that their timeshare business can support new development, it makes perfect sense that the developer inventory must contain usage value relative to its cost.  And that as the external resale market infringes on developer inventory more and more, Marriott must respond by offering an enhanced product to its potential customers.

Again with the developer purchasers being "unaware" - do we have to?

Marriott has NEVER done anything to prop up resale value.  ROFR exists solely to allow them to pick up inventory on the cheap so that they can turn around and sell it at developer prices to waiting-and-willing buyers.  The contracts contain provisions that state unequivocally that Marriott is not charged with protecting the purchaser's financial investment.  (Which does not at all mean that a Marriott week is worthless.)

I knew all that going in and so do many, many other developer purchasers.  My choice was to optimize my financial investment as best I could by protecting my weeks against possible future usage devaluations.  As near as I can figure, a resale purchaser's primary motivation is cost savings.

But there isn't any right or wrong way to buy a timeshare!  What works for one won't work for another.  Financial risk is such a personal thing, isn't it?  There are billionaires who won't bet $5 on tonight's game, and at the same time there are minimum wage earners who budget $20/week for the lottery.  What each of us has paid for our timeshare weeks is irrelevant when it comes to the usage value we can reasonably, as supported by the contracts, expect to get out of them.  IMO, we should all be hoping that Marriott is able to figure out something here that does work to make developer purchases more attractive, because without them eventually Marriott will be out of the business entirely.


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## SueDonJ

dive-in said:


> I usually just skim speculation/rumor threads so sorry if I missed these questions previously.
> 
> Will my MVCI property be devalued on the resale market if it is converted to a points system?  Or, put another way, would the value MVCI property be greater as a week or a points system?



It's impossible to know until Marriott announces the terms of a new points system.  As Dave said, some owners will love it and some won't.  Right now there isn't any guarantee that a new system will be introduced at all.



dive-in said:


> If the owners at a particular resort aren't happy with the new system, what prevents them from getting rid of Marriott?



Nothing, except that the bylaws which specify the actions necessary to remove the management company must be upheld.  Owners can't just get together and storm the castle   ; they need to follow procedure.


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## Twinkstarr

Stefa said:


> I would be less likely to part with $30,000 if I knew Marriott was actively working to devalue my new purchase.



Which is why I didn't spend the $30,000+ for Surfwatch.


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## DanCali

dive-in said:


> I usually just skim speculation/rumor threads so sorry if I missed these questions previously.
> 
> 
> Will my MVCI property be devalued on the resale market if it is converted to a points system?  Or, put another way, would the value MVCI property be greater as a week or a points system?
> If the owners at a particular resort aren't happy with the new system, what prevents them from getting rid of Marriott?
> 
> Darrell



The resale value is based on what a resale buyer can do with the purchase. If and when new rules come out they may or may not impact resale values. As you point out, so far it's all speculation and rumors. 

Getting rid of management is not an easy task. Just ask Starwood owners whose MFs increased by 100%+ over 5 years (I own both systems)... You have to get at least 50% of owners to buy into the benefits of doing something that drastic. Do you even know how to communicate with 3% of owners at your resort? Also, don't forget that if you get rid of Marriott you likely lose the 24 day II priority for that resort... How do you think that will impact resale values?


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## kjd

Marriott recently changed the MRP Elite status to include stays at Marriott timeshares.  It applied to everyone regardless of how you purchased your timeshare.

Marriott recently introduced a new benefit that will allow for one night's MRP credit for every $3,000 charged to a Marriott Visa credit card.  It will allow many people with timeshare credits who previously wouldn't qualify, to reach the next Elite status level.  It applied to everyone regardless of how you purchased your timeshare.

Marriott recently announced that Elite status members can rollover their excess nights credit to the following year.  That also applied to everyone regardless of how you purchased your timeshare.

Now we are told that there is a secret plan that is being created specifically to do-in the resale buyers.  Aside from a lot of heresay there has not been one bit of proof that it is being developed or will in fact occur.  The best that can be offered is an imaginary point system that has invited paranoia and speculation.  Marriott will of course act in it's own interests.  Making present timeshare owners mad who are loyal customers, valuable credit card holders and reliable MF payers wouldn't seem to fit Marriott's overall business plan.  (Not that there aren't some who wouldn't mind seeing resale buyers suffer.)  

Therefore, I will believe any changes to the program when I see it and then will act accordingly.   I can see no good reason why Marriott would want to conduct a vendetta against resale buyers.  If any changes to the program are made I believe that they will be made for sound business reasons not for retaliation.


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## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Marriott has NEVER done anything to prop up resale value.



That's exactly why I don't think their sales model is sustainable in the long run - new system or not. On average there are 1-2 of these types of threads  each week on the Starwood Board. I bet there are many other retail buyers who just read these threads and rescind without posting. This will not get better for developers and the voices telling retail buyers to rescind will only get louder if resale weeks are worthless.

Marriott figured a long time ago that current owners are more likely to buy a unit than others. That is why they came out with the 13 month rule. While that rule does not (or cannot) discriminte against resale buyers it promoted both retail and resale buying. Taking a "carrot" approach with multiple week retail buyers like offering extra perks (e.g. size/view upgrades at checkin, waitlisting for prime week reservations, no lockoff fee, no hotel point conversion fee, dedicated reservations line with shorter hold times, etc) may justify the extra cost even for many resale owners and spur additional informed retail sales. This is, in my view, a much more productive and long-term approach than the "stick" approach against resale buyers. Especially with a customer base of hundreds of thousands of existing owners.


----------



## SueDonJ

kjd said:


> Marriott recently changed the MRP Elite status to include stays at Marriott timeshares.  It applied to everyone regardless of how you purchased your timeshare.
> 
> Marriott recently introduced a new benefit that will allow for one night's MRP credit for every $3,000 charged to a Marriott Visa credit card.  It will allow many people with timeshare credits who previously wouldn't qualify, to reach the next Elite status level.  It applied to everyone regardless of how you purchased your timeshare.
> 
> Marriott recently announced that Elite status members can rollover their excess nights credit to the following year.  That also applied to everyone regardless of how you purchased your timeshare.
> 
> Now we are told that there is a secret plan that is being created specifically to do-in the resale buyers.  Aside from a lot of heresay there has not been one bit of proof that it is being developed or will in fact occur.  The best that can be offered is an imaginary point system that has invited paranoia and speculation.  Marriott will of course act in it's own interests.  Making present timeshare owners mad who are loyal customers, valuable credit card holders and reliable MF payers wouldn't seem to fit Marriott's overall business plan.  (Not that there aren't some who wouldn't mind seeing resale buyers suffer.)
> 
> Therefore, I will believe any changes to the program when I see it and then will act accordingly.   I can see no good reason why Marriott would want to conduct a vendetta against resale buyers.  If any changes to the program are made I believe that they will be made for sound business reasons not for retaliation.



But where has it been said that Marriott is doing this specifically as a vendetta or retaliation against resale owners?     Implementing a program that may stem the losses Marriott is suffering because of the now-mainstream external resale market IS a sound business reason!

As with any changes in existing policies, Marriott can expect that some current customers will be happy and some will not.  With this particular rumored change, speculation is that all exchanges may be affected, and that silver/bronze developer purchasers may end up as unhappy as resale platinum purchasers.  Don't know if it makes it any easier to take but this has the potential for equal opportunity unhappiness all around, except in the Marriott financial offices.  That's their focus.


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## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> ... extra perks (e.g. size/view upgrades at checkin ...



I HATE this idea, hate it hate it hate it!  IMO owners should always ALWAYS always be placed into the unit size/type/view that they purchased when they're staying on their owned weeks.  Maybe a once every ten years exception when the ceiling in the only unit left caved in the night before, but that's it.  You get what you paid for, period, regardless of whether you paid developer or resale dollars.

(This would benefit me, too, I'd love an upgrade to a platinum oceanvista, but I still HATE THIS IDEA.  Nothing could be more unfair to other owners.  GRRRRRRRR.  The thought of it makes me growl.) 



DanCali said:


> ... waitlisting for prime week reservations, no lockoff fee, no hotel point conversion fee, dedicated reservations line with shorter hold times ...



I do like these ideas, would like to see reduced fees and a waitlist system implemented for every owner even if the new points program isn't.


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## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> ... Taking a "carrot" approach with multiple week retail buyers like offering extra perks (e.g. size/view upgrades at checkin, waitlisting for prime week reservations, no lockoff fee, no hotel point conversion fee, dedicated reservations line with shorter hold times, etc) may justify the extra cost even for many resale owners and spur additional informed retail sales. This is, in my view, a much more productive and long-term approach than the "stick" approach against resale buyers. Especially with a customer base of hundreds of thousands of existing owners.



(rant over, now on to your point ...)

I guess I see an internal exchange system that favors developer purchases as what you call a "carrot" approach toward retail buyers, and not as a "stick" against resale buyers.  It's all in the perspective, sure, but wouldn't any changes that are selectively applied to certain owners affect one group positively and another negatively?  If all of the carrots you mentioned were implemented for retail buyers, wouldn't resale buyers be negatively affected to some extent?

Regardless, Marriott isn't looking for ideas to foster customer appreciation.  They want to generate revenue and stimulate sales, and an internal/points exchange system that is beneficial for the majority of their owners may do that.


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## NJDave

I try to keep a positive outlook. The change to points could end up being better to existing resale owners. 

We own two resale platinum units in Orlando.  If there is a fee to convert similar to what Hilton charges (e.g. $499 for Bay Club?), we could end up with a more flexible system for little cost.  It all depends on the cost to convert and the number of points assigned to the unit.  

We own Hilton and Marriott and like the Hilton "system" better (although Marriott is better due to the number and quality of resorts and its affiliation with Interval rather than RCI).  I welcome a change (at a reasonable cost) to a points system similar to Hilton even though the new system could result in the need to use more points than our timeshare would obtain if we were to exchange for example into a Hawaii unit with a view. We could end up with flexibilty to split or extend our week, splurge on an upgraded / larger unit, downsize to save points when the larger unit is not needed or obtain excess short stay inventory for cash if a Hilton type point system is implemented.


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## laurac260

*finding all this jargon difficult to sift thru...*

Perhaps because I am still new at this?  At any rate, we bought a Grande Ocean platinum week in Hilton Head to use at Grande Ocean.  We are beach people.  We have no desire to travel internationally, nor do we ski, golf, etc.  
We bought resale.  Do I have any reason to be concerned about any new program that may be on the horizon?  (not to discount anyone else's concerns, just wondering if I need to keep following this thread considering our present status).


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## JimIg23

NJDave said:


> We own two resale platinum units in Orlando.  If there is a fee to convert similar to what Hilton charges (e.g. $499 for Bay Club?), we could end up with a more flexible system for little cost.  .



If converting costs about 500 per week and the benefits are pretty good, I would buy in.  1-3k, no way, it would not matter how good it would be.


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## ocdb8r

First, I don't think Marriott is suffering losses from resales much larger now than in the past.  ROFR propped resale prices up but I fail to see how they drove REAL business to Marriott directly.  Because Marriott has never offered special perks to direct buyers other than Marriott reward points, most who were aware of the resale market were likely to buy there for the savings, no matter how little that savings was...and in many cases, despite ROFR, the savings were still quite substantial.  I think the REAL impact to Marriott's sales has been the same as it is for all timeshare sellers - the economy.  I doubt the pullback of ROFR has made things that much worse.

Second, as has been pointed out, Marriott has a history of treating resale owners on a level playing field with direct buyers.  There really isn't anything in their actions that points to a change in this attitude.  Further, it's not like the sort of tactics employed by the other timshare companies have been particularly successful.  I would be surprised to see Marriott go down the same failed path as others.

Third, even if they do decide to make such an unwise decision, I am confident existing resale owners will be grandfathered in to the new system.  If a new points based system is to be successful, it is going to require as much participation as Marriott can garner in the beginning.  There are too many resale owners out there for them to exclude those units from a trading system if they expect to successfully match trades.  Inventory is king and they are going to want as much inventory as possible.

Finally, I believe the primary motivation for such an offering is not to prop up direct sales, but rather to create an additional revenue stream.  I can't see why Marriott would want to deny itself the rewards of full participation.  This is the big error I think Starwood is making...they are losing out on LOTS of exchange fees by denying resale owners participation in their internal exchange system.  I have forked over thousands to II for exchanges right back into other SVO resorts...why Starwood doesn't want a piece of those fees I don't understand.  I think lazy sales people have convinced some executives that they get some sort of "real" advantage from holding this over possible direct purchasers...but at the end of the day this is just NOT the case.


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## kjd

Where has it been said that Marriott is doing this specifically as a vendetta or retaliation against resale owners?  

It's been said or implied throughout this thread by several people.  There is considerable discussion of an imaginary point system  and the effects it will have upon resale owners in particular.  Right now, a point system doesn't exist so all of it is speculation and should be taken as such.

There are over 400,000 members of MVCI.  Many of them have the Marriott Visa credit card and pay their maintenance fees promptly.  They also spend a lot of money at various Marriott entities throughout the year.  That includes resale buyers as well as direct purchasers.  Often they are the same persons. They are loyal customers.

Marriott is not going to set fire to their business by devising a scheme that will be directed at the resale market.  As mentioned before, Marriott should be doing everything they can to prop up timeshare values for their own benefit.   If there are any future changes they likely will benefit all owners, as they have done so in the past.


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## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> If all of the carrots you mentioned were implemented for retail buyers, wouldn't resale buyers be negatively affected to some extent?



The "carrots" I mentioned may make resale buyers feel a bit more like second class citizens but I don't see those carrots as having a negative impact on resale prices (they wouldn't be taking anything you have right now). Ultimately, that's the best determinant of how much any changes really matter.


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## SueDonJ

kjd said:


> There is considerable discussion of an imaginary point system  and the effects it will have upon resale owners in particular. ...



With all the discussions it seems the only thing that's been said that may have any validity to it at all is that resale owners may be charged a higher initiation fee to join the points program, and there is some question as to whether a grandfather clause will be included.  All of the salespeople's rumors about different reservation policies or inferior unit assignments, etc. have pretty much been dismissed as ridiculous.



DanCali said:


> The "carrots" I mentioned may make resale buyers feel a bit more like second class citizens but I don't see those carrots as having a negative impact on resale prices (they wouldn't be taking anything you have right now). Ultimately, that's the best determinant of how much any changes really matter.



Well, I guess if Marriott had a history of taking actions to protect the future resale prices of their developer inventory, then I'd be more inclined to believe that it would be a consideration for them now.  Resale history, though, leads me to believe that their primary concern is with being able to move their own inventory, not their owners' inventory.


----------



## Latravel

DanCali said:


> Why would anyone buy from them if they treat resale units differently and consequently drive resale values to zero? QUOTE]
> 
> I don't think they really care what you do with your unit or it's resale value once you buy from them.   Timeshares are NOT investments.  You were never guaranteed a rate of return.  They just want you to buy directly from them to get more money for their company and shareholders.
> 
> Only a very small percentage of people buy resale (less than 7%) and i'm sure most have internet access.  A person who has bought directly from Marriott buys an average of 4 weeks from Marriott.
> 
> Which demographic or group of people do you think they will concentrate their efforts on?  Who do you think they will target?  Is this really a surprise?


----------



## James1975NY

DanCali said:


> The "carrots" I mentioned may make resale buyers feel a bit more like second class citizens but I don't see those carrots as having a negative impact on resale prices (they wouldn't be taking anything you have right now). Ultimately, that's the best determinant of how much any changes really matter.



I would agree with this. At the least, it will take quite a bit of time to have an impact on resale prices.


----------



## SueDonJ

laurac260 said:


> Perhaps because I am still new at this?  At any rate, we bought a Grande Ocean platinum week in Hilton Head to use at Grande Ocean.  We are beach people.  We have no desire to travel internationally, nor do we ski, golf, etc.
> We bought resale.  Do I have any reason to be concerned about any new program that may be on the horizon?  (not to discount anyone else's concerns, just wondering if I need to keep following this thread considering our present status).



Laura, I think the owners who stand to be less or non- impacted by any new internal/points exchange system are the owners like you who bought your weeks for the sole purpose of using your home resort.

The only group of owners which may be protected more than you (against any inherent devaluation in such a program) is the group of developer purchasers who also bought for that sole purpose, because they would presumably pay less to join than you would if your future plans include exchanges.

Overall, I'm not certain that any weeks will be devalued as much as the resale buyers here seem to think will happen, especially if Marriott offers the option to all buyers in the future.  Each will just have to determine if the applicable initiation fee is worth the exchange privilege.

It really is a wait-and-see game, though, and none of us can be certain of anything unless and until Marriott actually announces and implements any changes.


----------



## rsackett

I heard from a good source that as of June 30th resale buyers will no longer be able to make reservations at their home resorts more that one week in advance.  Marriott will also charge resacle owners a $200 "Reservation Fee" to make their reservation.  Direct purchasers from Marriott who opt into the new points program will have the option of displacing resale owners who have fixed weeks if the owners have not called in at exactly 331 days prior to their fixed week check-in day to confirm their use for that year.

Alsio all resale owners MUST where a red _"R"_ at all times when on site.

Ray


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## EducatedConsumer

I'm confused by the title of this thread and some of the discussion.

Is this really a case of Marriott "devaluing" someone's timeshare, or Marriott finally placing a quantifiable measure on its timeshares, so that the peak season owners enjoy benefits that the non peak season owners may not enjoy? (e.g. thereby dispeling the old TUG myth that a winter week at Spicebush or Swallowtail could get its owner practically anywhere they wanted to go in the Marriott system).

If anything, it sounds like Marriott may be leveling out the playing field to me, and drawing upon some of the best practices of Disney and the (very) few best practices of Starwood.

Of course, until any of this is communicated by Marriott, it's all speculation.


----------



## Stefa

Latravel said:


> Only a very small percentage of people buy resale (less than 7%)



Which is why I don't think Marriott will make much of a distinction between the two groups beyond the suggested higher buy-in price for the points system.  There is little reason for them to do so.


----------



## SueDonJ

rsackett said:


> I heard from a good source that as of June 30th resale buyers will no longer be able to make reservations at their home resorts more that one week in advance.  Marriott will also charge resacle owners a $200 "Reservation Fee" to make their reservation.  Direct purchasers from Marriott who opt into the new points program will have the option of displacing resale owners who have fixed weeks if the owners have not called in at exactly 331 days prior to their fixed week check-in day to confirm their use for that year.
> 
> Alsio all resale owners MUST where a red "_R_" at all times when on site.
> 
> Ray
> 
> Ray



None of this is worth squat if there aren't fresh flowers and a teal ottoman in my unit when I get there.


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## JimIg23

They will make the resale owners cut the flowers and fluff the pillows.


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## Latravel

Stefa said:


> Which is why I don't think Marriott will make much of a distinction between the two groups beyond the suggested higher buy-in price for the points system.  There is little reason for them to do so.



Very possible.  This is probably true for the initial roll out of the product because they already lost the sale.  But, for future sales, I can see them making more of a distinction between resale and developer.


----------



## dougp26364

SueDonJ said:


> I HATE this idea, hate it hate it hate it!  IMO owners should always ALWAYS always be placed into the unit size/type/view that they purchased when they're staying on their owned weeks.  Maybe a once every ten years exception when the ceiling in the only unit left caved in the night before, but that's it.  You get what you paid for, period, regardless of whether you paid developer or resale dollars.
> 
> (This would benefit me, too, I'd love an upgrade to a platinum oceanvista, but I still HATE THIS IDEA.  Nothing could be more unfair to other owners.  GRRRRRRRR.  The thought of it makes me growl.)
> 
> 
> 
> I do like these ideas, would like to see reduced fees and a waitlist system implemented for every owner even if the new points program isn't.



In the two points based systems I own, owners do get the exact size unit, season and view they paid for. They simply have the option to move up, move down or change seasons. Each has a home resort priority window where owners at that resort can snag the unit type/view they own before anyone else has a chance. It's very similar to the floating weeks system Marriott has now in that regard. 

After the home resort window has passed, owners of other seasons, views and sizes of units can pick from what's left over after the home resort resrevation window has passed. If you don't need that three bedroom unit, reserve a one or two bedroom unit instead. Want the ocean front rather than ocean view? Borrow points from next year and move up in view for a year. Need a larger unit for a family reunion? Borrow points and reserve a three bedroom unit rather than the one bedroom unit you own. Can't stay 7 nights this year because there is some other obligation or you recently changed your job? Reserve a couple of weekend stays rather than a full weeks stay.

You only hate it because you don't understand it and, mostly because it's all just rumor as of right now. It's easy to hate the idea of something when you don't have any of the details. Generally speaking, the two points based reservations systems we own are much more flexible than what Marriott presently has but, we still have the same rights of unit type, view and season that Marriott offers. The difference is I can move up, move down and change season so much easier with a points based system than I can with Marriott.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> ... extra perks (e.g. size/view upgrades at checkin ...





SueDonJ said:


> I HATE this idea, hate it hate it hate it!  IMO owners should always ALWAYS always be placed into the unit size/type/view that they purchased when they're staying on their owned weeks.  Maybe a once every ten years exception when the ceiling in the only unit left caved in the night before, but that's it.  You get what you paid for, period, regardless of whether you paid developer or resale dollars.
> 
> (This would benefit me, too, I'd love an upgrade to a platinum oceanvista, but I still HATE THIS IDEA.  Nothing could be more unfair to other owners.  GRRRRRRRR.  The thought of it makes me growl.) ...





dougp26364 said:


> ... After the home resort window has passed, owners of other seasons, views and sizes of units can pick from what's left over after the home resort resrevation window has passed. If you don't need that three bedroom unit, reserve a one or two bedroom unit instead. Want the ocean front rather than ocean view? Borrow points from next year and move up in view for a year. Need a larger unit for a family reunion? Borrow points and reserve a three bedroom unit rather than the one bedroom unit you own. Can't stay 7 nights this year because there is some other obligation or you recently changed your job? Reserve a couple of weekend stays rather than a full weeks stay.
> 
> You only hate it because you don't understand it and, mostly because it's all just rumor as of right now. It's easy to hate the idea of something when you don't have any of the details. Generally speaking, the two points based reservations systems we own are much more flexible than what Marriott presently has but, we still have the same rights of unit type, view and season that Marriott offers. The difference is I can move up, move down and change season so much easier with a points based system than I can with Marriott.



No Doug, what I would hate is what I understood Dan to be saying, that owners using their own weeks would/could at the time of check-in be upgraded from what they purchased.  I would hate that, hate it HATE it hate it!  

What you're saying, I think, is that within a points-based system you can manage your points so that if you want to stay in a unit type/season other than what you purchased, the opportunity is there after the home resort window has passed.  I like that!  At least I think I do, if any owner is still not given at check-in a unit type which s/he hasn't purchased or managed/reserved in advance.  Do your systems unfairly dole out arbitrary upgrades at check-in?

I like the idea of Marriott converting to an internal points system for exchange purposes only, for the reasons you've given.  If I stay at my home resort then I get what I purchased, if I want to exchange then the possibilities for unit type/season/length of stay are limited only by the point values assigned to my purchase and the desired exchange.  THAT works for me (and doesn't make me growl.)


----------



## laurac260

JimIg23 said:


> They will make the resale owners cut the flowers and fluff the pillows.



gosh...as long as I don't have to rub anyone's bunyons, I'm good!


----------



## ocdb8r

One thing that has not been discussed is that point systems typically leech out the ability of owners to "upgrade" units size wise.  This has two effects:

1) No longer will those of us with lock-offs be able to game II in order to end up with two 2 bedroom units...and I know some of you don't do this but there are plenty of us traders who make working the II system a fun puzzel and end up with great usage.

2) the possible flipside though is that I think owners of off season weeks will be able to trade up season wise if they are willing to take a smaller unit...and usually with more certainty and predicatbility than in II.

Basically...the points systems remove the ability to leech great units in exchange for a bit more seaonal flexibility.


----------



## Stefa

Latravel said:


> Very possible.  This is probably true for the initial roll out of the product because they already lost the sale.  But, for future sales, I can see them making more of a distinction between resale and developer.



I don't know.  There are three options for every potential owner: (1) buy direct, (2) buy resale, (3) don't buy.  If Marriott implements a points system where they charge resale owners $500-$1000 (or so) to buy in, they still make money off the second option (resales).  Therefore they do stand to gain by keeping resales at least somewhat attractive.  They do not make money if potential resale buyers choose the third option of not purchasing a Marriott.

The only reason they would have for imposing a substantial penalty on resale buyers would be if they thought they could persuade enough potential resale buyers to become direct buyers.  I'm not sure how that would work.


----------



## littlestar

EducatedConsumer said:


> I'm confused by the title of this thread and some of the discussion.
> 
> Is this really a case of Marriott "devaluing" someone's timeshare, or Marriott finally placing a quantifiable measure on its timeshares, so that the peak season owners enjoy benefits that the non peak season owners may not enjoy? (e.g. thereby dispeling the old TUG myth that a winter week at Spicebush or Swallowtail could get its owner practically anywhere they wanted to go in the Marriott system).
> 
> If anything, it sounds like Marriott may be leveling out the playing field to me, and drawing upon some of the best practices of Disney and the (very) few best practices of Starwood.
> 
> Of course, until any of this is communicated by Marriott, it's all speculation.



What scares me is that in seasonal locations, if you make it not worth owning Marriott Bronze and Silver weeks, how many lower season week holders will bail out - leaving the gold and platinum owners to pick up the difference on fees?  In a way, bronze and silver subsidize the higher season weeks's maintenance fees. Marriott sales may not care, but I sure do since I own Gold. I want silver and bronze to have something worthwhile to them so I don't get hit with their fees, too. Let's face it, Marriott maintenance fees are not cheap. If I owned multiple Hilton Head platinum weeks, I'd be worried about just how high my fees could go if the lower season week owners decide it's not worth it.  

My Disney fees have only increased about 3 to 4 percent a year - better track record than my Marriott, actually.


----------



## rthib

Stefa said:


> I don't know.  There are three options for every potential owner: (1) buy direct, (2) buy resale, (3) don't buy.  If Marriott implements a points system where they charge resale owners $500-$1000 (or so) to buy in, they still make money off the second option (resales).  Therefore they do stand to gain by keeping resales at least somewhat attractive.  They do not make money if potential resale buyers choose the third option of not purchasing a Marriott.



How does Marriott make/or lose any money on a resale (other than the transfer fee).

If Buyer B or Resale owner A owns unit Marriott will still get a MF from one of them.  When Unit goes from A to B, Marriott still gets same MF.


----------



## Latravel

ocdb8r said:


> Basically...the points systems remove the ability to leech great units in exchange for a bit more seaonal flexibility.



That's what I would miss with a new points system. We know the system well enough that it is sort of a game to get the best trade possible while using all the tricks we've learned.  I'm not sure I want to give that up.

On the otherhand, there has to be some process for Marriott to unload last minute cancellations.


----------



## Stefa

rthib said:


> How does Marriott make/or lose any money on a resale (other than the transfer fee).



By charging an additional fee if the resale buyer wants to belong to the points system.  (At this time there is no points system, so this is all hypothetical.)


----------



## SueDonJ

ocdb8r said:


> Basically...the points systems remove the ability to leech great units in exchange for a bit more seaonal flexibility.





Latravel said:


> That's what I would miss with a new points system. We know the system well enough that it is sort of a game to get the best trade possible while using all the tricks we've learned.  I'm not sure I want to give that up.
> 
> On the otherhand, there has to be some process for Marriott to unload last minute cancellations.



My worry is that we won't have anything like an AC - II sure does make it worthwhile to deposit tiger traders if you're lucky enough to take full advantage of the AC limitations.  I think of an AC as II's way of turning my non-L/O unit into one.


----------



## winger

Latravel said:


> ...
> 
> On the otherhand, there has to be some process for Marriott to unload last minute cancellations.



Yes, MVCI can still DUMP excess inventory into the II system.  Having a points system does NOT mean they will severe ties to II, b/c not all MVCI owners will choose to participate in the points system


----------



## SueDonJ

littlestar said:


> What scares me is that in seasonal locations, if you make it not worth owning Marriott Bronze and Silver weeks, how many lower season week holders will bail out - leaving the gold and platinum owners to pick up the difference on fees?  In a way, bronze and silver subsidize the higher season weeks's maintenance fees. Marriott sales may not care, but I sure do since I own Gold. I want silver and bronze to have something worthwhile to them so I don't get hit with their fees, too. Let's face it, Marriott maintenance fees are not cheap. If I owned multiple Hilton Head platinum weeks, I'd be worried about just how high my fees could go if the lower season week owners decide it's not worth it.



This is definitely a concern for both resale and developer weeks, but it's a concern already in place.  How much more of an impact would an internal points exchange system actually have on these weeks compared to the II system that's in place now?  Off-season weeks now don't have much trade power associated with them, do they?  Something is making those owners think it's worth it to hold onto them now - what is it if it's not trade power?


----------



## ocdb8r

SueDonJ said:


> My worry is that we won't have anything like an AC - II sure does make it worthwhile to deposit tiger traders if you're lucky enough to take full advantage of the AC limitations.  I think of an AC as II's way of turning my non-L/O unit into one.



I agree that this would also be another loss...doubtful that you would get any sort of bonus week with an internal points system.



Latravel  View Post said:


> That's what I would miss with a new points system. We know the system well enough that it is sort of a game to get the best trade possible while using all the tricks we've learned. I'm not sure I want to give that up.



I agree...I have been plenty happy with the trades I have been able to complete with my unit.  Contrary to what some may believe I get many prime season trades into an upgraded unit...and NOT just last minute flexchange.  I can typically get a 2bdrm in Platinum or gold season easily with my 1 bedroom (either by requesting a 2bdrm only resort or regular checking of II for a bulk bank) and can get another 2 bedroom with my studio, although usually in flexchange.  That said I DO have to be somewhat flexible; it would be great to have more certainty in reserving a specific week as a point system might allow....it's all about tradeoffs.



Latravel  View Post said:


> On the otherhand, there has to be some process for Marriott to unload last minute cancellations.



I think they will continue to offload last minute cancellations in II, however I think there will be fewer.  To clarify, I think Marriott will continue to allow use of II but most prime week owners will move to Marriott's internal scheme as it will offer more flexibility for them and likely more equitable trades.


----------



## SueDonJ

winger said:


> Yes, MVCI can still DUMP excess inventory into the II system.  Having a points system does NOT mean they will severe ties to II, b/c not all MVCI owners will choose to participate in the points system



In the short term, yes, at least until the current agreement between MVCI and II is scheduled to expire.  But this is why I was asking about the MVCI/II contract earlier.  Isn't it possible for them to enter into an agreement under different terms with II or a different exchange company?


----------



## ocdb8r

SueDonJ said:


> This is definitely a concern for both resale and developer weeks, but it's a concern already in place.  How much more of an impact would an internal points exchange system actually have on these weeks compared to the II system that's in place now?  Off-season weeks now don't have much trade power associated with them, do they?  Something is making those owners think it's worth it to hold onto them now - what is it if it's not trade power?



I think there is a subset of bronze/silver week owners that uses those weeks for flexchange trades into great locations/seasons...much of that would disappear in a points system and therefore those owners might be more likely to just ditch the weeks.  However, I think this is likely a much smaller group of people than we think here on tug...those of us THAT proficient in trading are the minority.

What you might gain on the flipside are owners willing to buy 2 silver weeks on the cheap and pay the double maint. fees in order to combine their points to get a good week somewhere else.  You'd be surprised at how many look only at initial investment and not the continuing maint. fee cost.


----------



## ocdb8r

SueDonJ said:


> In the short term, yes, at least until the current agreement between MVCI and II is scheduled to expire.  But this is why I was asking about the MVCI/II contract earlier.  Isn't it possible for them to enter into an agreement under different terms with II or a different exchange company?



For sure this is a possibility, but I think as several posts have demonstrated, MVCI still NEEDS an outlet like II.  There will be owners who want to trade outside Marriott at times AND it serves as a good location to dump last minute inventory.  As mentioned, there will also be some owners who feel II meets their needs better than MVCI's internal system and may stick there.  Surely once they put their system into place the relationship with II will change, but I think it will still be there.


----------



## littlestar

SueDonJ said:


> This is definitely a concern for both resale and developer weeks, but it's a concern already in place.  How much more of an impact would an internal points exchange system actually have on these weeks compared to the II system that's in place now?  Off-season weeks now don't have much trade power associated with them, do they?  Something is making those owners think it's worth it to hold onto them now - what is it if it's not trade power?



I can't speak for every off season owner, but back when I used to own silver, I was able to trade via II back into almost any season in overbuilt areas pretty easily (Orlando) and I used flex change in II for some great trades into peak times.  But it's probably safe to say the majority of the time my up trades were the equivalent of going from silver to gold season.

I'm saying that seasonal locations need ALL their owners to pay fees and I hope Marriott doesn't kick the lower seasons in the teeth if they roll out a new system because Platinum and Gold will ultimately make up the difference if those lower seasons become undesirable.


----------



## SueDonJ

ocdb8r said:


> For sure this is a possibility, but I think as several posts have demonstrated, MVCI still NEEDS an outlet like II.  There will be owners who want to trade outside Marriott at times AND it serves as a good location to dump last minute inventory.  As mentioned, there will also be some owners who feel II meets their needs better than MVCI's internal system and may stick there.  Surely once they put their system into place the relationship with II will change, but I think it will still be there.



Oh, I definitely agree that the affiliation with an exchange company is a necessary selling point for developer inventory.  Like Dan said, those "thousands of resorts worldwide" make a difference.  I'm just questioning why anybody would expect the MVCI/II agreement as it stands now to remain in place if an internal points system is implemented - Marriott would stand to gain more converts by revamping that arrangement so as to remove the familiar from some holdouts.


----------



## SueDonJ

littlestar said:


> I can't speak for every off season owner, but back when I used to own silver, I was able to trade via II back into almost any season in overbuilt areas pretty easily (Orlando) and I used flex change in II for some great trades into peak times.  But it's probably safe to say the majority of the time my up trades were the equivalent of going from silver to gold season.



If they assign point values according to the relative saturation of an area and seasons, as well as resort/unit size/view type, and reduce point requirements during an equivalent flexchange period, couldn't they effectively incorporate most of those Silver/Bronze shortcomings?



littlestar said:


> I'm saying that seasonal locations need ALL their owners to pay fees and I hope Marriott doesn't kick the lower seasons in the teeth if they roll out a new system because Platinum and Gold will ultimately make up the difference if those lower seasons become undesirable.



Yep, completely agree.


----------



## dioxide45

ocdb8r said:


> One thing that has not been discussed is that point systems typically leech out the ability of owners to "upgrade" units size wise.  This has two effects:
> 
> 1) No longer will those of us with lock-offs be able to game II in order to end up with two 2 bedroom units...and I know some of you don't do this but there are plenty of us traders who make working the II system a fun puzzel and end up with great usage.



You seem to think that those "upgrading" are harming the current system. That is far from the case. I have upgraded through II using a 1BR and studio units in to 2BR units. However these were far from upgrades over all. Sure we got larger units, but we had to sacrifice some things. Trading a peak week for an off peak travel time. Traveling on short notice. Just because one is upgrading in unit size doesn't mean the trade isn't equal overall.

We are ultimatly absorbing inventory that other people don't want or can not use. In that I think we are performing a service to the overall system. Full resorts means more money for the developers, HOAs and II.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> If they assign point values according to the relative saturation of an area and seasons, as well as resort/unit size/view type, and reduce point requirements during an equivalent flexchange period, couldn't they effectively incorporate most of those Silver/Bronze shortcomings?



The problem that Marriott has now and in any attempt to move to a points system is that they have very long seasons at some of their resorts. With their seasons at NCV for example, they have said that a July week is worth the same as an early October week. They are both Platinum season, but we all know they are not the same.

Can Marriott really assign different point values to these two weeks? If they do, then those silver/bronze owners won't be able to travel in those low season times. If they do have lower point values, they just threw their entire season system out the window.


----------



## dougp26364

SueDonJ said:


> No Doug, what I would hate is what I understood Dan to be saying, that owners using their own weeks would/could at the time of check-in be upgraded from what they purchased.  I would hate that, hate it HATE it hate it!
> 
> What you're saying, I think, is that within a points-based system you can manage your points so that if you want to stay in a unit type/season other than what you purchased, the opportunity is there after the home resort window has passed.  I like that!  At least I think I do, if any owner is still not given at check-in a unit type which s/he hasn't purchased or managed/reserved in advance.  Do your systems unfairly dole out arbitrary upgrades at check-in?
> 
> I like the idea of Marriott converting to an internal points system for exchange purposes only, for the reasons you've given.  If I stay at my home resort then I get what I purchased, if I want to exchange then the possibilities for unit type/season/length of stay are limited only by the point values assigned to my purchase and the desired exchange.  THAT works for me (and doesn't make me growl.)



One of the points based systems I own allows owners to upgrade, depending upone their loyalty (level) they have with the company. For instance, we have enough points that we are Silver Elite. That allows us two upgrade but, we have to pay $99 for each upgrade if one is available. Platinum Elite members get ulimited upgrades and don't pay a fee. The trick is, the upgrade has to be available. It's only available when those owners aren't occupying those weeks. If it's not available then there isn't any upgrade.....even if one is Platinum Elite. At least that's how I understand it. 

Now if I own an ocean view and if Marriott doesn't specify view when exchangers exchange in and if an ocean front unit is available, who do you think deserves the ocean front unit? Someone who paid full price and bought directly from Marriott, someone who is a Marriott owner but purchased resale or maybe someone who purchased a week for $1 off E-bay and pays $300/year for some un-rated resort in an over developed section of the country? Personally, I'd like to see the upgrades in view go to Marriott owners who own at that resort long before someone who exchanges in from an outside system.

The best example I can give you is from my own experience. We own at Ocean Pointe and I can recognize an ocean front unit based on the sleeping capacity and the unit description on the confirmation. One year we exchange for points and I used a lessor resort to exchange back into Ocean Pointe and I was careful to choose (online exchange) an ocean front unit. So there I was, techniquely an outside exchanger, sitting in an ocean front unit while Marriott owners staying on their own time didn't have the option to be upgraded to the view I was enjoying. 

I NEVER see Marriott taking away an owners view that they paid for. Neither of the points based systems allow that unless I want something different than what I purchased. If a better view is available, I would rather see a Marriott owner (resale or developer purchase really doesn't matter to me) with the great view than someone who's exchange in from an outside system. If those upgrades are based upon some set of guidelines developed by Marriott than so be it. I can see someone who owns 6 Platinum weeks getting preference over someone who owns one bronze week, but only for exchanges. The bronze week owner deserves the unit and view that he paid for even if a 6 week Platinum owner trades into the bronze owners resort and season. 

Remember, it's all speculation. Nothing has happened and nothing has been announced. To guess at what Marriott will eventually present is really just wasted energy and, we've wasted a lot of time and energy since 2006.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> The problem that Marriott has now and in any attempt to move to a points system is that they have very long seasons at some of their resorts. With their seasons at NCV for example, they have said that a July week is worth the same as an early October week. They are both Platinum season, but we all know they are not the same.
> 
> Can Marriott really assign different point values to these two weeks? If they do, then those silver/bronze owners won't be able to travel in those low season times. If they do have lower point values, they just threw their entire season system out the window.



For logistical reasons I wouldn't expect different weeks within the same season/resort to be assigned different point values, regardless of holidays or traditional high demand.  But if Marriott needs to change season designations so that its rumored internal exchange system will run smoother, that change should apply across the board and not just for exchanges.  That's assuming, of course, that Marriott has a contracted right to change season designations at an established resort.

The other thing that may be an impediment to holiday/high demand weeks being assigned a point value higher than others within the same season, is if Marriott does intend to adopt Starwood's recent practice of choosing which weeks are deposited when owners request an exchange.  If Marriott arbitrarily assigns a higher point value to a holiday week, then an owner will be able to choose that specific week to deposit.  If all weeks within a season are equal then Marriott can pick the week to deposit, keeping the traditional in-demand week for owner or internal exchange use.


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> Can Marriott really assign different point values to these two weeks? If they do, then those silver/bronze owners won't be able to travel in those low season times. If they do have lower point values, they just threw their entire season system out the window.



I don't believe ths is possible... Deeded weeks are in most cases assigned randomly and people are told by Marriott salespeople they are "for deeding purposes only". Can you imagine the outcry from all the retail buyers who paid full price for NCV weeks deeded 36-50? That's a class action waiting to happen... Moreover, the NCV deeds actually specify the actual season you own.


----------



## ocdb8r

DanCali said:


> I don't believe ths is possible... Deeded weeks are in most cases assigned randomly and people are told by Marriott salespeople they are "for deeding purposes only". Can you imagine the outcry from all the retail buyers who paid full price for NCV weeks deeded 36-50? That's a class action waiting to happen... Moreover, the NCV deeds actually specify the actual season you own.



I agree...there is no way they are going to adjust the seasons when they implement the point system.  The problems at NCV (and other resorts with season problems) have and will continue to be there...Marriott has found some way to manage it thus far and I don't know why a points system would make it any worse.


----------



## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> One of the points based systems I own allows owners to upgrade, ... and, we've wasted a lot of time and energy since 2006.



Wasted energy?     It's just thinking out loud, is all.  :hysterical: 

Doug, your experience with exchanging back in to your home resort is how I expect Marriott to work now, how Marriott says it will do things with the II system currently in place (at least at the two resorts where I own, and at a few others where owners have confirmed it.)  When owners are staying at their home resorts using their owned weeks, they should ALWAYS be placed into the unit type/size/view that they purchased.  ALWAYS.  No exceptions.  (Except for that once every ten years caved-in ceiling thing, which hardly ever happens anyway.    )  But if owners visit their home resorts on anything other than an owned week (exchange, Getaway, AC, cash rental, etc.) then the stated reservation system gives them priority over all other guests EXCEPT for the owners using their own weeks who are placed first into what they purchased.  Whew.  That does mean that an outside exchanger may get an oceanfront unit while a gardenview owner using his/her own week sits way up the back of the resort sulking over the unfairness of it all.  But that's not unfair to me - that's the rules being applied uniformly.  What would be unfair is if two or more equal owners have reserved their own weeks for use at their home resort, they all arrive on the same day, and only one is chosen for an upgrade at check-in.  Boo hiss boo.

It's too many words to say, owners staying at their home resorts using their purchased weeks should ALWAYS be placed into the unit type/view/size that they purchased.  Exchanging is a whole different kettle of fish with a whole different set of rules, whether you're talking about exchanging today within II's system or any system that might be in place in the future.

What I envision as a perfect Marriott internal points exchange system is one where the owners' right to occupy their purchased unit/week remains exactly as it is now, but a DVC-type points system can be elected for exchanges.  Point values can be determined based on resort/unit size/season/view/location (in whatever order, and including whatever else I'm missing,) and applied to exchanges subject to only the maximum points assigned to ownership.  {Edit - Oh yeah, and availability.}  Add in length of stay options, banking and borrowing, waitlists ... that would make me a very happy camper.


----------



## ocdb8r

dioxide45 said:


> You seem to think that those "upgrading" are harming the current system. That is far from the case. I have upgraded through II using a 1BR and studio units in to 2BR units. However these were far from upgrades over all. Sure we got larger units, but we had to sacrifice some things. Trading a peak week for an off peak travel time. Traveling on short notice. Just because one is upgrading in unit size doesn't mean the trade isn't equal overall.
> 
> We are ultimatly absorbing inventory that other people don't want or can not use. In that I think we are performing a service to the overall system. Full resorts means more money for the developers, HOAs and II.



Quite the contrary...I agree with you completely.  We are indeed absorbing inventory others would not want or use...if you look above I am quite happy with what I have been able to get.  That said, I think you overstate the "service" we are providing to the system.  I have garnered several unequal trades, a point system might work as a better equalizer by providing more flexibility but ultimately less ability to "upgrade."  As you can see from my earlier posts...it's just a tradeoff - one I am on the fence about as I have been happy thus far.


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## SueDonJ

(just an FYI - ignore if you want)

The storm today on the east coast delayed a fabric delivery that I was expecting early this morning; it didn't show up here from Philly until 8 tonight.  That was great for me today because I pretty much killed the day here, but it means that I'll be chained to the sewing machine for most of tomorrow and Friday.  Not that you care what I'm doing, but I want to say that this has been one of the most enjoyable, informative discussions on this topic that I've been a part of and it's going to be difficult to not check in on it frequently tomorrow.  Thanks, all.


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## JimIg23

Once they do come out with the new system, I know it will be discussed throughly here, so we will be able to make an informed choice!


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## PerryM

*Wolfman howling....*

I honestly believe that we are the butt end of a practical joke from Marriott – they must be howling each morning!  I can just imagine the morning management meetings with a rousing round of laughter. 

The forces that caused the real estate spike and subsequent implosion are still there – they have not gone away yet.  So don’t look for any improvements to the long term real estate market in 2010.  2011 is probably shot too.

For Marriott to release such a radical departure from their business model is insanity in this climate.  3 years ago, at the height of the insanity, sure it was something to consider but NOT now!

So leave me out of this – I’m having too much fun howling each morning myself; this is a well executed practical joke.  Congratulations Marriott.....


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## ocdb8r

I'm kind of surprised at the resistance and concern over a Marriott internal trading system in general.  While I understand there are valid concerns about the specific implementation, I would think in general people would be happy to deal directly with Marriott as opposed to II.  Sure, there is a possibility that Marriott is extremely harsh or arbitrary in the implementation of such a system, but I think overall it will be quite fair.  Again, I think the point is to ENCOURAGE as much trading as possible as they are going to collect a fee on each exchange.

As for those of us that have been able to garner great trades in the current system, I don't see an internal Marriott system destroying that either.  I also own in Starwood and am still able to get many great trades back into starwood resorts with II despite a very active internal system on their part.  There will still be good deposits into II and those of us who have perfected gaming the system will still find a way to game it....it may not be AS good, but if we get the opportunity to participate in the internal system as well, I would be happy with that.


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## GaryDouglas

*Happiness is...*

I will be happy if:

I can trade internally and keep my ocean front location
Pay no more than I currently pay II for trades
It does not devalue my properties
I will wait until the rumors end and the facts appear...


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## KathyPet

New system is coming.  They hope to release in June.  This was confirmed to me by the Sales Manager at St. Kitts.  He either did not know the details or did not wish to discuss as he said some things are still not written in concrete but there will be a new system.


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## ldanna

PerryM said:


> The forces that caused the real estate spike and subsequent implosion are still there – they have not gone away yet.  So don’t look for any improvements to the long term real estate market in 2010.  2011 is probably shot too.



Perry, you're right. It will take some time until we can see some improvement into the real state business, specially on the luxury segment (TS is a luxury).

If, and only if, Marriott is thinking about a new internal system with or without points, now it's defenitly not the right time. Even spreading a rumor it will might drive buyers away because if you're thinking about buying and there maybe changes on the horizon, why not wait and see?


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## dougp26364

ldanna said:


> Perry, you're right. It will take some time until we can see some improvement into the real state business, specially on the luxury segment (TS is a luxury).
> 
> If, and only if, Marriott is thinking about a new internal system with or without points, now it's defenitly not the right time. Even spreading a rumor it will might drive buyers away because if you're thinking about buying and there maybe changes on the horizon, why not wait and see?



I disagree. If the real estate market is hurting, then revenue will be hurting as well. What better time to introduce a revenue enhancer like a new internal points based exchange system than now. It will bring in additional income from current owners and it could be seen as giving their sales staff an edge over the resale market. Note I didn't say it WILL give them an edge. Only that it could be viewed by Marriott as an advantage to buying direct rather than resale.


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## SueDonJ

ldanna said:


> Perry, you're right. It will take some time until we can see some improvement into the real state business, specially on the luxury segment (TS is a luxury).
> 
> If, and only if, Marriott is thinking about a new internal system with or without points, now it's defenitly not the right time. Even spreading a rumor it will might drive buyers away because if you're thinking about buying and there maybe changes on the horizon, why not wait and see?



I agree with Dean - this is the perfect climate to introduce something that could generate new revenue from weeks that have already been purchased as well as new developer inventory.  The idea of an internal exchange system has apparently been in the works for some time longer than the current economic conditions, it's a business no-brainer to implement it sooner rather than later while the developer inventory is stagnant.

About the "wait and see" - that's my thought too with any luxury purchase these days.  But some folks disagree and think that now is the time to buy while the prices are depressed.  I'm amazed at how many on TUG think that this is the time to buy a resale Marriott week despite these rumors floating around.  Granted, they're only rumors, but there are enough of them out there to make me think that some change is coming.  IF the speculation about resales being impacted more by higher initiation fees and possible usage differences pans out, isn't there more risk now in buying resale than developer?  (Not financial risk, I mean in usage.)


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## KathyPet

I am in escrow on a platinum  RESALE St. Kitts unit.  I went ahead in spite of all the rumors for two reasons.  1.  I am not purchasing this unit to trade.  We love St. Kitts and expect to go there every year for many years to come. and, (2) I hope that Marriott will change the system and grandfather in the existing resale purchasers as of a certain date.  I am pushing to complete our sale ASAP in the hopes that I am correct and that I will get in "under the wire"


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## ldanna

Doug and Susan, you two got a point. What I said is that a new internal trading system won't make Marriott sell more units. It might generate some revenue, but not new sales.

I do thinks it's time to buy and not to sell, but not direct, resale instead. I did, and many people here got real bargains. But, unfortunatly there's alot more people selling than people with money to buy, and it will be like that for a while. I hope it won't last long, but maybe it will.


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## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Granted, they're only rumors, but there are enough of them out there to make me think that some change is coming.  *IF the speculation about resales being impacted more by higher initiation fees and possible usage differences pans out, isn't there more risk now in buying resale than developer?*  (Not financial risk, I mean in usage.)



Wouldn't that rational thought be reason enough for Marriott to start the rumors in the first place? 

No that I don't think changes might be coming... but I think making any changes that discriminate against resale buyers (especially retroactively) opens them to class action lawsuits. If they make changes on a forward looking basis and hurt resale values for all, I think it will hurt them in the long run due to the viral word of mouth effect from hundreds of thousands of owners.


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## PerryM

*Barfing by the side of the road?*



dougp26364 said:


> I disagree. If the real estate market is hurting, then revenue will be hurting as well. What better time to introduce a revenue enhancer like a new internal points based exchange system than now. It will bring in additional income from current owners and it could be seen as giving their sales staff an edge over the resale market. Note I didn't say it WILL give them an edge. Only that it could be viewed by Marriott as an advantage to buying direct rather than resale.



This is just my theory - everyone has their own:

It's insane to completely change the way you sell a product when the company and country are hurting - the risk is HUGE and the rewards are dubious at best.

*The instant Marriott introduces a Point Based Exchange System it simply becomes a copycat of Wyndham - whoopee!*

The salesreps will stop selling fixed units/weeks/seasons at fixed Marriott resorts to a *Point Based Vacation System*.  The salesreps will start to sell Points and dump fixed seasons at fixed resorts.

This is a HUGE change in sales and a HUGE risk.  We all know that screwups will happen and owners will have to go through a HUGE learning curve - all while the resale value of their investment in Marriott is barfing by the side of the road.

It's simply lunacy and no grown-up at Marriott will introduce this until real estate is making a healthy recovery.  Sales managers and the such are always selling things they don't have - it's an occupational hazard.

But it seems like our entire country has gone insane, so who knows.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Wouldn't that rational thought be reason enough for Marriott to start the rumors in the first place?
> 
> No that I don't think changes might be coming... but I think making any changes that discriminate against resale buyers (especially retroactively) opens them to class action lawsuits. If they make changes on a forward looking basis and hurt resale values for all, I think it will hurt them in the long run due to the viral word of mouth effect from hundreds of thousands of owners.



I suppose the conspiracy theory that Marriott deliberately started these rumors to negatively impact external resales has a few teeth, sure.  But if we're thinking _rationally_, then aren't we thinking that any impending change which will substantially affect usage - which an internal exchange system will - will impact both developer and external sales?  That's how I think of it, although like I said earlier, I didn't believe that any of the rumors would probably pan out until Dave posted his insider information.  That was when I decided that _any_ Marriott purchase should wait until whatever is being changed, is announced.

As far as discrimination, I'm not sure that different initiation fees could be called discriminatory.  The multi-week owners have an advantage with Marriott reservations, that's not discriminatory.  II charges lesser fees for Marriott-to-Marriott than Marriott-to-external exchanges, that's not discriminatory.  And, I'm still not sure how this could affect all resales to the extent that some here speculate.  A bit?  Sure.  Say external resales are charged $1K to join - so what might have garnered $6K on the resale market now garners $5K.  That's not zero, and that's not a substantial devaluation (as compared to the devaluation between existing developer and resale inventory.)  The possibility even still exists to get that $6K, if a buyer wants only home usage.


----------



## Stefa

SueDonJ said:


> I'm not sure that different initiation fees could be called discriminatory.  The multi-week owners have an advantage with Marriott reservations, that's not discriminatory.  II charges lesser fees for Marriott-to-Marriott than Marriott-to-external exchanges, that's not discriminatory.  And, I'm still not sure how this could affect all resales to the extent that some here speculate.  A bit?  Sure.  Say external resales are charged $1K to join - so what might have garnered $6K on the resale market now garners $5K.  That's not zero, and that's not a substantial devaluation (as compared to the devaluation between existing developer and resale inventory.)  The possibility even still exists to get that $6K, if a buyer wants only home usage.



I agree.  Marriott could charge $1k to join the internal system and simply waive the fee as a purchase incentive for direct buyers.  As long as they are not interfering with owners' rights to use their home resort, they are not breaking any laws.

I believe the idea of devalued resales comes more from some of the sales rumors that resale owners will be treated differently when making reservations.  I don't believe Marriott could or would do this, so I don't see a significant resale devaluation.


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## kjd

I don't know what motivates other people to buy a timeshare but my motivation was to use it every year for vacations.  Personally I reject any notion of an "investment" or a "portfolio of properties."  I've heard references to it by sales staff and others.

The fact is that you have purchased a license to reserve a week at a Marriott timeshare with certain conditions such as availability, payment of fees, etc.  That is irregardless of the fact that it is "deeded property"--a favorite term used by some sales staff.  It's more like a golf membership.  You have the right to play but you really don't own much of the golf course and you can't effectively make any decisions about your ownership.  That is out of your hands.

Therefore it makes sense that one should assume that a timeshare will be worthless when you stop using it.  It can be passed on to family members who can decide whether they wish to continue to pay maintenance fees.  Any value derived by a sale is an extra benefit.  If you hold this point of view it really doesn't matter what Marriott has in store for it's owners.


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## PerryM

kjd said:


> I don't know what motivates other people to buy a timeshare but my motivation was to use it every year for vacations.  Personally I reject any notion of an "investment" or a "portfolio of properties."  I've heard references to it by sales staff and others.
> 
> The fact is that you have purchased a license to reserve a week at a Marriott timeshare with certain conditions such as availability, payment of fees, etc.  That is irregardless of the fact that it is "deeded property"--a favorite term used by some sales staff.  It's more like a golf membership.  You have the right to play but you really don't own much of the golf course and you can't effectively make any decisions about your ownership.  That is out of your hands.
> 
> Therefore it makes sense that one should assume that a timeshare will be worthless when you stop using it.  It can be passed on to family members who can decide whether they wish to continue to pay maintenance fees.  Any value derived by a sale is an extra benefit.  *If you hold this point of view it really doesn't matter what Marriott has in store for it's owners.*



Don't include me in that group!

I've bought and sold 5 Marriotts over the years and made a profit - small but my goal was to make a profit.  Throw in 5 years of usage and rentals and I made out exactly as I had hoped for - the risk of timeshare ownership was superior to renting the same exact units.

Everyone seems to look at timeshare ownership in a different way.  However, that recurring MF that you are responsible for is sobering and I personally want to view timeshare ownership as something superior to renting.

Right now that view isn't working - timeshares make little sense in a declining real estate market - rentals fall too.  So my advice to anyone listening is to NOT buy a timeshare, no matter how juicy the deal, in 2010 - probably 2011 too.

The risks of timeshare ownership are just too great now - but this will cycle and at some point timeshare ownership will be superior to renting.


----------



## SueDonJ

kjd said:


> I don't know what motivates other people to buy a timeshare but my motivation was to use it every year for vacations.  Personally I reject any notion of an "investment" or a "portfolio of properties."  I've heard references to it by sales staff and others.
> 
> The fact is that you have purchased a license to reserve a week at a Marriott timeshare with certain conditions such as availability, payment of fees, etc.  That is irregardless of the fact that it is "deeded property"--a favorite term used by some sales staff.  It's more like a golf membership.  You have the right to play but you really don't own much of the golf course and you can't effectively make any decisions about your ownership.  That is out of your hands.
> 
> Therefore it makes sense that one should assume that a timeshare will be worthless when you stop using it.  It can be passed on to family members who can decide whether they wish to continue to pay maintenance fees.  Any value derived by a sale is an extra benefit.  If you hold this point of view it really doesn't matter what Marriott has in store for it's owners.



Exactly, its value is in its use.  Marriott has never concerned itself with upholding the resale dollar values of inventory, and in fact suffers no legal requirement to do so. 

Although, I can sort of understand why resale buyers think that there are financial benefits to timeshares; after all, the've reaped the benefit of being able to enjoy almost exactly the same usage of their weeks while paying less for them than the developer purchasers who are lounging beside them at the resort pools.

But that's why I don't get the outcry from folks who bought resale and may now suffer a slight devaluation in their weeks.  If developer purchasers have no legal footing to mount a class action suit against Marriott for not upholding the dollar value investment they've made, what possible legal footing could the owners of resale inventory hold?  It boggles my mind.


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## timeos2

*They can't change ownership rights but they can play with perks. Don't bite!*



DanCali said:


> Wouldn't that rational thought be reason enough for Marriott to start the rumors in the first place?
> 
> No that I don't think changes might be coming... but I think making any changes that discriminate against resale buyers (especially retroactively) opens them to class action lawsuits. If they make changes on a forward looking basis and hurt resale values for all, I think it will hurt them in the long run due to the viral word of mouth effect from hundreds of thousands of owners.



No company has done more to kill resale value their product than Wyndham yet they continue, really unbelievably, to sell retail AND hold a fair to pretty good reputation except, of course, for sales tactics.  So it is a perfectly reasonable thing for Marriott to look to new sources of revenue, most likely an internal exchange system that gets them away from II and generates money both for new members and ongoing use.  The fact that most of the "hurt resale" stuff can't actually be done due to the original ownership rights doesn't stop them, like Wyndham, from dreaming up bogus things that AREN'T guaranteed by ownership such as VIP or the ability to exchange for some type of hotel credits which can be withheld from those cheeky enough  to save big buying resale.

But if owners really look at the benefits those types of programs offer vs the incredible additional cost to buy retail then they quickly learn the value isn't there. But that fact doesn't come easy to buyers. If it did Wyndham retail sales would have been zero years ago yet they continue to sell. The small amount of buyers that figure out the game, at least so far, doesn't hurt the big boys.  Hopefully it will someday and balance will return to resale vs retail pricing. Don't hold your breath expecting it any decade soon.


----------



## PerryM

*Here's the straight poop...*



SueDonJ said:


> Exactly, its value is in its use.  Marriott has never concerned itself with upholding the resale dollar values of inventory, and in fact suffers no legal requirement to do so.
> 
> Although, I can sort of understand why resale buyers think that there are financial benefits to timeshares; after all, the've reaped the benefit of being able to enjoy almost exactly the same usage of their weeks while paying less for them than the developer purchasers who are lounging beside them at the resort pools.
> 
> But that's why I don't get the outcry from folks who bought resale and may now suffer a slight devaluation in their weeks.  If developer purchasers have no legal footing to mount a class action suit against Marriott for not upholding the dollar value investment they've made, what possible legal footing could the owners of resale inventory hold?  It boggles my mind.



Over the years the definition of timeshares has changed - originally they were sold as a time-slice of a fixed week at a fixed condo at a fixed resort, now folks want flexibility and want usage of many condos at many destinations from their "unit".

Points adds this capability but affects the existing sold out Marriotts - those folks bought their timeshare under older definitions and now Marriott is to completely redefine their timeshare - into a vacation club and they might really get screwed by this.

Depending on how Marriott treats resales they will have a HUGE impact on existing resorts where Marriott simply cleans the toilets.  That 800 pound gorilla drops big smelly poops.

So we shall see how the janitor's wishes and desires impacts the lives of the owners who employ him; and if they will just sit on their hands while this takes place.

P.S.

People buy stability and sell instability - something Marriott seems to have never hear of....


----------



## DanCali

kjd said:


> Therefore it makes sense that one should assume that a timeshare will be worthless when you stop using it.



Sure that's an assumption you can make... probably a "worst case assumption".

But if that's the way it should be and it makes the most sense than why isn't it sold that way by developers?

If the answer is "nobody will buy if it's sold that way" then the numbers are probably hard to justify...


----------



## timeos2

*Hurting the retail buyer doesn't bother the developers as they think it hurts resale*



Stefa said:


> I agree.  Marriott could charge $1k to join the internal system and simply waive the fee as a purchase incentive for direct buyers.  As long as they are not interfering with owners' rights to use their home resort, they are not breaking any laws.
> 
> I believe the idea of devalued resales comes more from some of the sales rumors that resale owners will be treated differently when making reservations.  I don't believe Marriott could or would do this, so I don't see a significant resale devaluation.



You have that correct. The points system - or whatever the new internal system turns out to be - is an OPTION so selling it at different prices to resale or retail buyers breaks no laws or ownership rights. They can't step on use rights or deeded rights but anything optional can be handled anyway they see fit. Ask Wyndham.  

The resale buyers should be overjoyed as if the Wyndham pattern hold the introduction of this type of owner unfriendly option and resale put down results in terrific prices for resale buyers. Of course its at the expense of retail buyers but Marriott couldn't care less about that. And the hit that a retail buyer takes will only get worse (and its already bad). Buying retail timeshare is a fools move and has been for a long time. It is just becoming less and less easy to ignore that fact.


----------



## Simplify

PerryM said:


> That 800 pound gorilla drops big smelly poops.



I know it's juvenile, but I literally laughed out loud when I read this.  

Darren:hysterical:


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Sure that's an assumption you can make... probably a "worst case assumption".
> 
> But if that's the way it should be and it makes the most sense than why isn't it sold that way by developers?
> 
> If the answer is "nobody will buy if it's sold that way" then the numbers are probably hard to justify...



Ours was sold that way.  It was explained to us during the sales presentation and it's in the Contracts for Purchase that we signed:


> ... Purchaser acknowledges that the purchase of the Time Sharing Interest(s) is made for the Purchaser's personal use, and that neither Seller nor any of its agents, employees and/or affiliates has made any oral or written representations that the Purchaser would derive economic benefits or expectation of profit from appreciation ...



It's also explained in further detail in several of the governing docs; this is from the Time Sharing Plan:


> Purchaser should purchase a time sharing interest as a vacation experience and for his or her personal use and enjoyment.  Purchaser should not purchase a time sharing interest as an investment or for profit upon its rental or resale.



It was quite clear to us from the start and it's confirmed with each and every related entry in all of the ownership documents.  Marriott isn't charged with protecting its owners' financial investments, and the value of a timeshare is in its use.

That said, is it possible to make money buying and selling on the external markets?  Yes, of course, although not so much in this economic climate today as was possible previously.  But Marriott doesn't sell it that way and the contracts don't guarantee it.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> Over the years the definition of timeshares has changed - originally they were sold as a time-slice of a fixed week at a fixed condo at a fixed resort, now folks want flexibility and want usage of many condos at many destinations from their "unit".
> 
> Points adds this capability but affects the existing sold out Marriotts - those folks bought their timeshare under older definitions and now Marriott is to completely redefine their timeshare - into a vacation club and they might really get screwed by this.
> 
> Depending on how Marriott treats resales they will have a HUGE impact on existing resorts where Marriott simply cleans the toilets.  That 800 pound gorilla drops big smelly poops.
> 
> So we shall see how the janitor's wishes and desires impacts the lives of the owners who employ him; and if they will just sit on their hands while this takes place.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> People buy stability and sell instability - something Marriott seems to have never hear of....



Perry, all of your thoughts are based upon the assumption that Marriott's rumored points system will apply to every aspect of ownership.  Are you as adamantly opposed to a points system that will not affect home resort usage at all but instead only apply to internal exchanges?

(You're killing me with the "country is insane" and gorilla stuff.  Come down off that ledge!)


----------



## ecwinch

PerryM said:


> So we shall see how the janitor's wishes and desires impacts the lives of the owners who employ him; and if they will just sit on their hands while this takes place.



Know many janitors that have their name on the front of the building? 

There is a little bit more to the relationship than them just mopping the floors and changing the toilet paper. 

Their actions may devalue our ownership in the minds of some, but we still have the right to use the timeshare we own.


----------



## PerryM

*Beware the bogeyman....*



SueDonJ said:


> Perry, all of your thoughts are based upon the assumption that Marriott's rumored points system will apply to every aspect of ownership.  Are you as adamantly opposed to a points system that will not affect home resort usage at all but instead only apply to internal exchanges?
> 
> (You're killing me with the "country is insane" and gorilla stuff.  Come down off that ledge!)



I own at Summit Watch and Marriott cleans the toilets there - they do a great job too.

However, we can vote them out and bring in someone else if we wish - we control the HOA and Marriott is just the hired help.  Buried in the fine print Marriott can do some stuff that we can't control - like hawking timeshares on the property.



ecwinch said:


> Know many janitors that have their name on the front of the building?
> 
> There is a little bit more to the relationship than them just mopping the floors and changing the toilet paper.
> 
> Their actions may devalue our ownership in the minds of some, but we still have the right to use the timeshare we own.



If Marriott doesn't pit one owner against another owner at Summit Watch I could care less how they add the sales gimmick called "Internal Marriott Exchange System".  Make no mistake about it this is just a sales gimmick they are talking about.  What we have now with II works perfectly fine.

Marriott seems to revel in the idea of pitting one Marriott owner against another Marriott owner - you can see it here.  Wyndham does a great job of this and resales are but 5% the value of what Wyndham sells it for.  What makes folks think the same doesn't await us?

We have ample examples of other developers stepping on the necks of their owners and doing all kinds of things that benefit their stock holders and hurt the owners and resorts.  Marriott seems to be taking notes.

Marriott has been pushing this same stupid rumor for about 4 years now and nothing has happened except the hapless salesrep, who can't sell water to a thirsty man in the desert, who shouts *"Better not buy resale or the bogeyman will get you"* still can't sell.

Like I said, this is just a practical joke from Marriott and they are laughing themselves silly. I get a kick out of this; that's why I join in - I can't help myself.....


----------



## NWL

PerryM said:


> Like I said, this is just a practical joke from Marriott and they are laughing themselves silly.



I agree with you that this thread was started as a practical joke, but I disagree on who the perpetrator is.  This is my take on the thread:

Disgruntled Kolina sales rep got tired of prospective buyers telling him/her about TUG and buying re-sale.  Disgrunteld Kolina sales rep joins TUG and starts a thread asking if the information he/she heard from "reputable" sales rep at Kolina concerning resale buyers being snubbed by Marriott when new internal system is put in place is true.  Havoc ensues and disgruntled Kolina sales rep smiles and goes back to trying to sell full priced TS.

Am I right?  Who knows, but since the OP has only made 2 posts, both in this thread, I think it's a pretty good guess.  I thought it was fishy when it started, and I still do.  I had a sales presentation at Shadow Ridge a couple of weeks ago, and when asked point blank about an internal trading system, my rep said "no".  Different info coming from a different sales rep made me suspicious of this thread.

Bottom line on internal trading system:  only time, and Marriott, will tell.   

Cheers!


----------



## toontoy

Well I toured The Grand chateo (spelling) last october while attending a convention in Las Vegas. The main reason wasn't for the show tickets but me and my wife are impressed with Marriott's Hotels and wanted to learn a bit about them.

First I loved the amount of locations and places marriott can take you without having to leave the brand. The only thing that held us back from buying was we tend to stay 3-5 nights and rarely for a week. I find that if marriott did have a point system of some sort and internal trading we would have purchased. I think point based systems are more flexible and like hotels. I like the fact that when I go to Vegas during slow season with Hilton I use less points and then can go peak to hawaii and use the peak season. I am not having to move just a week for a week. For what I do I have used Hilton to get my 2 2 bedroom weeks into 2 2 bedroom weeks in orlando and 5 nights in orlando 1 bedroom and 6 nights in vegas in a 1 bedroom and 3 in a studio in florida. While hilton lacks locations they offer flexibility. I think marriott would grow substantially if they implemented internal trading and a point system. Those are just my observations from someone interested in marriott but not an owner.


----------



## JimIg23

Other than what it would cost to buy in, the only other reason that would stop me from buying in is the point value system.  I like that we get a week for a week when we trade thru II.  Lets suppose a week at an orlando resort platinum gets you 4 days in HI now, as new resorts come open, I pretty much can bank on that their week point costs at new resorts will rise.  In 5 years my week at NCV will get me 3 days at any new resort. 

We can only wait and see. At the end of the day, I like my two resorts and will be happy to go to them EOY....


----------



## Superchief

I don't trust Marriott to come up with a fair point based system, based on what they have done recently to the MR reward program and the inconsistency between points you receive for depositing your week vs. points charged for someone to use it. The only somewhat 'fair' way would be to tie the points to MF fees. At least then you could get what you pay for.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Ours was sold that way.  It was explained to us during the sales presentation and it's in the Contracts for Purchase that we signed:
> 
> Quote:
> ... Purchaser acknowledges that the purchase of the Time Sharing Interest(s) is made for the Purchaser's personal use, and that neither Seller nor any of its agents, employees and/or affiliates has made any oral or written representations that the Purchaser would derive economic benefits or expectation of profit from appreciation ...
> 
> It's also explained in further detail in several of the governing docs; this is from the Time Sharing Plan:
> 
> Quote:
> Purchaser should purchase a time sharing interest as a vacation experience and for his or her personal use and enjoyment. Purchaser should not purchase a time sharing interest as an investment or for profit upon its rental or resale.
> 
> It was quite clear to us from the start and it's confirmed with each and every related entry in all of the ownership documents. Marriott isn't charged with protecting it
> 
> That said, is it possible to make money buying and selling on the external markets?  Yes, of course, although not so much in this economic climate today as was possible previously.  But Marriott doesn't sell it that way and the contracts don't guarantee it.



Sure - those are CYA clauses (cannot spell out this acronym in a public forum). My mutual funds also say that past performance is not indicative of future results and if you buy them you can and may lose part or all of your money... That still doesn't mean they are sold as products intended to depreciate - and neither are timeshares. In fact, in most sales presntations you are misled to believe they appreciate when timesahres salespeople tell you that 5 years ago they sold them for X and now it's X+$8000 and if you don't hurry it will be $X+$8000+$Y...

Suppose you are contemplating buying a 2BR Plat NCV for approx $30K and the salesperson tell you that it will be a great deal even if they property is worthless in 20 years... would you buy into that?

Simplifying things, you actual cost over 20 years is $1000 in MF and taxes (assuming those costs stay fixed) and $1500 a year in depreciation - so $2500 a year, or $357 per night. Does it still sound like a good deal? Oh, and we forgot to include the opportunity cost of the initial $30K which could have been invested in treasuries for a 5% modest return which is another $1500 a year. Since this is forgone income (your property depreciates, it doesn't return 5% a year), add that to the annual cost and you get a whopping $4000 a year, or over $570 per night. And that was assuming fixed MFs... I think you can do better by renting directly even from Marriott any week of the year (including weeks 26 and 52) with more flexibility and a better cancellation policy...

If you do the math properly (including opportunity cost) it is difficult to justify buying a timeshare at any five figure price. The only way it would work is (i) if resale values appreciate over time, and/or (ii) if you can consistently rent for much more than MFs + opportunity cost of the initial investment, or (iii) if you convince yourself you invested in "luxury". We tend to gravitate towards (iii) since (i) and (ii) rarely hold... But I don't recall the pitch being investment in "luxury" at any of the presentations I attended. It was always "prepaying your vacation" and what a great financial investment it would be by having a deeded property you can will to your kids versus worthless hotel receipts.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Sure - those are CYA clauses (cannot spell out this acronym in a public forum). My mutual funds also say that past performance is not indicative of future results and if you buy them you can and may lose part or all of your money... That still doesn't mean they are sold as products intended to depreciate - and neither are timeshares. In fact, in most sales presntations you are misled to believe they appreciate when timesahres salespeople tell you that 5 years ago they sold them for X and now it's X+$8000 and if you don't hurry it will be $X+$8000+$Y...
> 
> Suppose you are contemplating buying a 2BR Plat NCV for approx $30K and the salesperson tell you that it will be a great deal even if they property is worthless in 20 years... would you buy into that?
> 
> Simplifying things, you actual cost over 20 years is $1000 in MF and taxes (assuming those costs stay fixed) and $1500 a year in depreciation - so $2500 a year, or $357 per night. Does it still sound like a good deal? Oh, and we forgot to include the opportunity cost of the initial $30K which could have been invested in treasuries for a 5% modest return which is another $1500 a year. Since this is forgone income (your property depreciates, it doesn't return 5% a year), add that to the annual cost and you get a whopping $4000 a year, or over $570 per night. And that was assuming fixed MFs... I think you can do better by renting directly even from Marriott any week of the year (including weeks 26 and 52) with more flexibility and a better cancellation policy...
> 
> If you do the math properly (including opportunity cost) it is difficult to justify buying a timeshare at any five figure price. The only way it would work is (i) if resale values appreciate over time, and/or (ii) if you can consistently rent for much more than MFs + opportunity cost of the initial investment, or (iii) if you convince yourself you invested in "luxury". We tend to gravitate towards (iii) since (i) and (ii) rarely hold... But I don't recall the pitch being investment in "luxury" at any of the presentations I attended. It was always "prepaying your vacation" and what a great financial investment it would be by having a deeded property you can will to your kids versus worthless hotel receipts.



But again, Dan, you're reducing your timeshare purchase to a dollar value - that simply isn't the only value associated with it!  It's cute to say that Marriott's contract provisions are simply CYA mumbo-jumbo, but try proving to a judge that Marriott will owe you money if your dollar investment depreciates.  You'd be laughed right out of Court because the fact is, only usage is guaranteed.

It isn't only about the math, and all developer purchasers aren't hoodwinked.  We went in to the sales presentation armed with one of those Timeshare Resales (or whatever it was) magazines, after I'd lurked around TUG for a while, and knew exactly how much depreciation a developer purchase suffers.  Our questions focused on usage, and whether the opportunity existed for developer and external resale purchasers to be subject to different rules, that's it.  We knew we wanted to continue to vacation on Hilton Head for many years in a style similar to the oceanfront condos we'd been renting for a few years, but we didn't want to have to search every year for a rental or be subject to what were then more than 12% rental cost increases each year.  We knew our financial future couldn't withstand a waterfront condo purchase but Marriott's prices worked for us.  At the time we bought SurfWatch there was very limited inventory on the resale market - only one Gold oceanvista 3BR that was listed for $1K less than developer price, and no Platinum oceanside 3BR.  At the time we bought Barony, I saw only three Gold oceanfront units on the resale market during the 3-4 months that our rep was waiting on one to become available - two of them were within a couple thousand of developer pricing, one was higher.  

Purchasing direct worked for us because we limited our choices to very specific weeks.  We weren't looking for the best bargain to save some money, we were looking for the best weeks to fit our vacation lifestyle.  I would (after this economic crisis passes) still purchase direct if ever we're in the market again, because our Marriott ownership has been exactly as promised by our sales rep.

I agree with kjd and expect usage from our timeshares, not dollar value.


----------



## DanCali

kjd said:


> Therefore it makes sense that one should assume that a timeshare will be worthless when you stop using it.
> 
> If you hold this point of view it really doesn't matter what Marriott has in store for it's owners.






SueDonJ said:


> But again, Dan, you're reducing your timeshare purchase to a dollar value - that simply isn't the only value associated with it!  It's cute to say that Marriott's contract provisions are simply CYA mumbo-jumbo, but try proving to a judge that Marriott will owe you money if your dollar investment depreciates.  You'd be laughed right out of Court because the fact is, only usage is guaranteed.
> 
> It isn't only about the math, and all developer purchasers aren't hoodwinked.  We went in to the sales presentation armed with one of those Timeshare Resales (or whatever it was) magazines, after I'd lurked around TUG for a while, and knew exactly how much depreciation a developer purchase suffers.  Our questions focused on usage, and whether the opportunity existed for developer and external resale purchasers to be subject to different rules, that's it.  We knew we wanted to continue to vacation on Hilton Head for many years in a style similar to the oceanfront condos we'd been renting for a few years, but we didn't want to have to search every year for a rental or be subject to what were then more than 12% rental cost increases each year.  We knew our financial future couldn't withstand a waterfront condo purchase but Marriott's prices worked for us.  At the time we bought SurfWatch there was very limited inventory on the resale market - only one Gold oceanvista 3BR that was listed for $1K less than developer price, and no Platinum oceanside 3BR.  At the time we bought Barony, I saw only three Gold oceanfront units on the resale market during the 3-4 months that our rep was waiting on one to become available - two of them were within a couple thousand of developer pricing, one was higher.
> 
> Purchasing direct worked for us because we limited our choices to very specific weeks.  We weren't looking for the best bargain to save some money, we were looking for the best weeks to fit our vacation lifestyle.  I would (after this economic crisis passes) still purchase direct if ever we're in the market again, because our Marriott ownership has been exactly as promised by our sales rep.
> 
> I agree with kjd and expect usage from our timeshares, not dollar value.



Those are fair points, especially if a developer purchase is informed.

But I still disagree with the assertions that one should assume by default that a timeshare depreciates to zero. If you make that assumption then buying retail or even resale rarely makes financial sense (unless you pay close to zero and manage to extract value). More often than not you'd simply be better off renting under that assumption.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Those are fair points, especially if a developer purchase is informed.
> 
> But I still disagree with the assertions that one should assume by default that a timeshare depreciates to zero. If you make that assumption then buying retail or even resale rarely makes financial sense (unless you pay close to zero and manage to extract value). More often than not you'd simply be better off renting under that assumption.



I can't speak for kjd, but I've never said that I expect my weeks to depreciate to zero.  (Well, okay, maybe fifty years from now, but not anytime soon ...)  There would be dollar value in our weeks if we listed them for resale, definitely.  But we couldn't get back what we paid for them, no.  And I'm thankful that I was never led to believe that we could.  I'm not naive, it's obvious there are developer purchasers who were hoodwinked.  But I think also that Buyer Beware should fit into the equation somewhere, and it shocks me the number of direct buyers who do not know what they're buying.  For that matter, there are resale buyers who don't know what they've bought!  IMO, it's more financially irresponsible to not know what you're buying, than to choose to buy direct over resale.


----------



## Clemson Fan

NWL said:


> I agree with you that this thread was started as a practical joke, but I disagree on who the perpetrator is. This is my take on the thread:
> 
> Disgruntled Kolina sales rep got tired of prospective buyers telling him/her about TUG and buying re-sale. Disgrunteld Kolina sales rep joins TUG and starts a thread asking if the information he/she heard from "reputable" sales rep at Kolina concerning resale buyers being snubbed by Marriott when new internal system is put in place is true. Havoc ensues and disgruntled Kolina sales rep smiles and goes back to trying to sell full priced TS.
> 
> Am I right? Who knows, but since the OP has only made 2 posts, both in this thread, I think it's a pretty good guess. I thought it was fishy when it started, and I still do. I had a sales presentation at Shadow Ridge a couple of weeks ago, and when asked point blank about an internal trading system, my rep said "no". Different info coming from a different sales rep made me suspicious of this thread.
> 
> Bottom line on internal trading system: only time, and Marriott, will tell.
> 
> Cheers!


 
Bingo!  I thought and still think the same thing which is why I've refused to get involved in this thread and have barely skimmed it over.

It's just the same old stuff that's been argued at nauseum many times here, but this time I think it was started by a Marriott practical joker which many people have bit on despite your warning early on.


----------



## PerryM

*Bad boy....*

If Marriott wants to allow owners to exchange usage among themselves then a simple Point system like I've explained years ago here would do fine.  Here's how it works:

Marriott currently has rental prices for every unit, size, and date - that's their business to rent rooms to folks.  Simply make 1 Point equal to 1 US dollar and you have an instant internal exchange system that is absolutely fair.  You simply look up the rental rate for your unit and if you like the Points deposit the unit into the new system and get the rental Points instead of dollars.

Folks can then go "shopping" with their Points to rent other units - simple as pie.

This is NOT what Marriott has in mind though - it revolves around punishing owners who are bad - those bad boys and girls who bought resale.  This will start a war among Marriott owners.

In my Summit Watch there will now be some Good owners and Bad owners - the bad ones are to be punished by not allowing them into the internal exchange program.  

Problem is that eventually every unit changes hands - death, taxes, illness, divorce, all force sales of timeshares.  Marriott intends to use the new exchange system to punish owners who don't do what is in the best interests of Marriott; screw the owner.

And at Summit Watch Marriott simply cleans the toilets.  Go figure...

Well off to Maui and probably a tour of MOC and hopefully 15k of MRPs.


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## dioxide45

Clemson Fan said:


> Bingo!  I thought and still think the same thing which is why I've refused to get involved in this thread and have barely skimmed it over.
> 
> It's just the same old stuff that's been argued at nauseum many times here, but this time I think it was started by a Marriott practical joker which many people have bit on despite your warning early on.



Strangely the original post was actually about USE RULES, not changes to how someone would exchange their week. There was never mention of an internal exchange system in the original post.


----------



## SueDonJ

NWL said:


> I agree with you that this thread was started as a practical joke, but I disagree on who the perpetrator is.  This is my take on the thread:
> 
> Disgruntled Kolina sales rep got tired of prospective buyers telling him/her about TUG and buying re-sale.  Disgrunteld Kolina sales rep joins TUG and starts a thread asking if the information he/she heard from "reputable" sales rep at Kolina concerning resale buyers being snubbed by Marriott when new internal system is put in place is true.  Havoc ensues and disgruntled Kolina sales rep smiles and goes back to trying to sell full priced TS.
> 
> Am I right?  Who knows, but since the OP has only made 2 posts, both in this thread, I think it's a pretty good guess.  I thought it was fishy when it started, and I still do.  I had a sales presentation at Shadow Ridge a couple of weeks ago, and when asked point blank about an internal trading system, my rep said "no".  Different info coming from a different sales rep made me suspicious of this thread.
> 
> Bottom line on internal trading system:  only time, and Marriott, will tell.
> 
> Cheers!





Clemson Fan said:


> Bingo!  I thought and still think the same thing which is why I've refused to get involved in this thread and have barely skimmed it over.
> 
> It's just the same old stuff that's been argued at nauseum many times here, but this time I think it was started by a Marriott practical joker which many people have bit on despite your warning early on.



But it isn't only one salesperson who has mentioned the rumored internal exchange system, reports from sales staff all over saying similar things are happening more and more frequently.  Plus, DaveM was willing to put his TUG reputation on the line when he repeated information he'd received from a trusted Marriott insider - Dave isn't exactly some guy we don't know from Adam.

So sure, it's possible that Marriott has launched an offense against external resales by using the sales staff to spread Chicken Little rumors.  Possible, but improbable IMO.  Consider that many posters on TUG, thought to be the savviest of savvy timeshare owners, respond to such rumors by running out and buying up resales before any change can be implemented!  So there again, it's possible Marriott is deliberately sabotaging its own product, but really not logical.

And so what if an internal points exchange system never comes to fruition?  What's the harm in discussing possibilities?  I learn something new every time these discussions happen on TUG - doesn't everyone?


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> Strangely the original post was actually about USE RULES, not changes to how someone would exchange their week. There was never mention of an internal exchange system in the original post.



Exchanging IS use.  The topic flowed naturally when you think about how many times an internal exchange system has been mentioned by various salespeople, and how many previous threads on TUG have dealt with the subject.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> Exchanging IS use.  The topic flowed naturally when you think about how many times an internal exchange system has been mentioned by various salespeople, and how many previous threads on TUG have dealt with the subject.



But the OP specifically mentioned things relating to home resort usage and reservations (priority booking and placement at ones resort). So while exchanging may be part of usage, it was not referenced specifically anywhere in the original post.


----------



## dioxide45

PerryM said:


> If Marriott wants to allow owners to exchange usage among themselves then a simple Point system like I've explained years ago here would do fine.  Here's how it works:
> 
> Marriott currently has rental prices for every unit, size, and date - that's their business to rent rooms to folks.  Simply make 1 Point equal to 1 US dollar and you have an instant internal exchange system that is absolutely fair.  You simply look up the rental rate for your unit and if you like the Points deposit the unit into the new system and get the rental Points instead of dollars.



But how will those poor saps selling weeks in Orlando ever sell another week? They have by far the lowest rental prices.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> But the OP specifically mentioned things relating to home resort usage and reservations (priority booking and placement at ones resort). So while exchanging may be part of usage, it was not referenced specifically anywhere in the original post.



But do you really think that every thread related to the rumors about something changing this year, are going to be limited to only the OP of each thread?  That's what I meant by a natural flow - it's impossible to not bring every aspect of the overall discussion into every related thread.  It's sort of like how all those recent Marriott Rewards threads merged into each other, isn't it?


----------



## PerryM

*Hello fodder; hello mudder....*



dioxide45 said:


> But how will those poor saps selling weeks in Orlando ever sell another week? They have by far the lowest rental prices.



The focus will shift to selling Points - the most bang for the buck.  If that means selling Summit Watch in Florida then that's exactly what they will do.

In a Points system the currency, Points, means everything.  Which Marriott unit generates the most Points for the least money.  MFs will play a role here too.

Like I said this is radically different than what Marriott sells now - night and day.  The owners will have to go through a HUGE learning curve and some will be winners and some will be losers.  To some extent this goes on now with MRPs but that will pale against a vacation club revolving around Points.

And for what?  I don't think cornering the exchange fees will make Marriott richer by much.  Its a sales gimmick designed to increase Marriott sales and the owners are cannon fodder in this war of new profits.

This Points system will peel back relative worth of all Marriott units like peeling an onion - expect a lot of crying.


----------



## mm251

*Maybe just a pawn trying to learn something?*



SueDonJ said:


> But it isn't only one salesperson who has mentioned the rumored internal exchange system, reports from sales staff all over saying similar things are happening more and more frequently.  Plus, DaveM was willing to put his TUG reputation on the line when he repeated information he'd received from a trusted Marriott insider - Dave isn't exactly some guy we don't know from Adam.
> 
> So sure, it's possible that Marriott has launched an offense against external resales by using the sales staff to spread Chicken Little rumors.  Possible, but improbable IMO.  Consider that many posters on TUG, thought to be the savviest of savvy timeshare owners, respond to such rumors by running out and buying up resales before any change can be implemented!  So there again, it's possible Marriott is deliberately sabotaging its own product, but really not logical.
> 
> And so what if an internal points exchange system never comes to fruition?  What's the harm in discussing possibilities?  I learn something new every time these discussions happen on TUG - doesn't everyone?



RE OP.   I did consider before the original post that I may well be a pawn to a Marriott sabotage plan.  More information was needed regardless.  I have learned much from the threads.  Thanks to all.


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## KathyPet

I guess the thing that bothers me is that in many cases Marriott is not giving their current owners any other "out" of their timeshares except to list on the secondary market.  Marriott will not accept a unit to resell until the original sales are exhausted.  In a large resort that can take years and years to achieve and while that time period passes if a owner needs to sell their unit due to divorce, financial reasons, death or any other reasons they have no choice but to offer it on the resale market at greatly reduced prices from the Marriott price. To then turn around and further punish these sellers by treating the potential purchasers of these units as second class owners and giving them less than a full retail purchaser only further serves to reduce the price that the original owner is going to get when Marriott won't sell it for them anyway.  Doesn't seem quite right to me.


----------



## Dave M

DanCali said:


> Those are fair points, especially if a developer purchase is informed.
> 
> But I still disagree with the assertions that one should assume by default that a timeshare depreciates to zero. If you make that assumption then buying retail or even resale rarely makes financial sense (unless you pay close to zero and manage to extract value). More often than not you'd simply be better off renting under that assumption.


I agree. Buying most timeshares doesn't make financial sense. So what?  We make thousands of financial decisions in our lifetime that don't make financial sense. Buying that more expensive car, the bigger TV, the better quality of meat, the brand-name grocery product, the "in" clothes for our kids, the once (or twice or many times) in a lifetime expensive vacation, etc. We buy many things, including timeshares, because we want to and we can. I don't see anything wrong with that.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> This is just my theory - everyone has their own:
> 
> It's insane to completely change the way you sell a product when the company and country are hurting - the risk is HUGE and the rewards are dubious at best.
> 
> *The instant Marriott introduces a Point Based Exchange System it simply becomes a copycat of Wyndham - whoopee!*
> 
> The salesreps will stop selling fixed units/weeks/seasons at fixed Marriott resorts to a *Point Based Vacation System*.  The salesreps will start to sell Points and dump fixed seasons at fixed resorts.
> 
> This is a HUGE change in sales and a HUGE risk.  We all know that screwups will happen and owners will have to go through a HUGE learning curve - all while the resale value of their investment in Marriott is barfing by the side of the road.
> 
> It's simply lunacy and no grown-up at Marriott will introduce this until real estate is making a healthy recovery.  Sales managers and the such are always selling things they don't have - it's an occupational hazard.
> 
> But it seems like our entire country has gone insane, so who knows.



Why Wyndham? Why not Hilton or maybe a trust based system like DRI or Bluegreen? 

I think the hole in your boat is assuming that the majority of owners buying from the developer are informed consumers. I don't believe that's the case. I really don't see this as having a major impact on Marriott developer sales unless Marriott believes that they're losing business to developers that do have a points based system. Maybe Marriott salesmen are having trouble competing with points based systems like Hilton's, Starwoods and DVC's. 

At any rate, as I see it, the typical developer sale is some tourist couple fresh off the street that doesn't have a clue about timesharing. That demographic won't care what Marriott did before any change. That's because they won't have a clue how Marriott did it before. 

I just don't see this as being as big a deal as some are making it out to be. We've owned since 1998. The only constant has been change. I suspect Marriott will make some sort of change if only because so many other systems are going points based and they have to compete with those system.


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## JimIg23

even with points, owners are going to get first crack at their home resort.   I doubt anyone who is not a resort owner with first dibs will be able to ever find a summer week at NCV or HH or HI after the owners reserve. Even if say a NCV owners wants to go to HI, they are still going to secure a summer week first to make sure they have something.  At least you have a shot with II and a trade.


----------



## dougp26364

JimIg23 said:


> even with points, owners are going to get first crack at their home resort.   I doubt anyone who is not a resort owner with first dibs will be able to ever find a summer week at NCV or HH or HI after the owners reserve. Even if say a NCV owners wants to go to HI, they are still going to secure a summer week first to make sure they have something.  At least you have a shot with II and a trade.



What will change is that owners will not longer reserve the highest demand weeks just for exchange purposes. In every points system I know you don't reserve specific weeks. You exchange using generic points that have a value set by the exchange company based on the value of the weeks given them by the developer for exchange inventory. In both points systems that I own with, it's easier to see and reserve high demand times at non-home resorts than it is using Marriott's weeks based exchange system. 

It might not make it a lot easier for non-NCV owners to get a summer week but, it might make it easier for those who own NCV and want to stay there during the summer season to actually get a week they can use.


----------



## jerseyfinn

I figured this thread would turn into something akin to a 'timeshare teaparty' ( though I do not view advocates of MVC change as unrealistic nor Marriott as the Bush bad-guy in this unfolding timeshare saga ).  

I agree with *DaveM's *take which is that change is coming to MVC and that it has been long in the making. At this time we know nothing beyond this and I'll not speculate about "what if's". I do however see opportunity for many MVC owners to leverage something from Marriott if we provide feedback to Marriott as real facts begin to trickle out. In other words, now  ( like any time ) is a good time to send your thoughts and concerns to Marriott about what sort of product MVC should be. Not that we get a vote here, but simply as owner feedback to help Marriott gauge  our thoughts/expectations.



Latravel said:


> Come on everyone!  You are asking why Marriott would make changes in this economic climate and why they would treat resale and developer sales differently.  It's to increase sales and the performance of their company!!!
> 
> They have to offer new products.  They have to be creative and change the way they do business because it's stagnant right now.



I agree with *Latravel* who suggests that Marriott is a big corporation weathering a storm just like the rest of us. Of course MVC's business is ( selling) timeshare and it is entirely reasonable that Marriott will on occassion seek to alter/improve/reassess the business from time to time as nothing in life is static. Let's wait and see what this really means as a good company will maintain a partnership with their customers.

Barry


----------



## jerseyfinn

Latravel said:


> Come on everyone!  ... Only a very small percentage of people buy resale (less than 7%) . . .  A person who has bought directly from Marriott buys an average of 4 weeks from Marriott.
> 
> Which demographic or group of people do you think they will concentrate their efforts on? Who do you think they will target? Is this really a surprise?



I've always heard that resales comprise a small portion of overall MVC sales, so this number does not exactly surprise. *Latravel*, where did you learn this figure & how reliable do you consider it? In any case, thanks for the info as your point that MVC developer purchasers predominate is an important one.

Now I have no axe to grind with resale purchasers as resale is an absolutely legitimate alternative entry point to TS ownership. In a broad sense all owners share similar interests/needs, but this does not mean that they are mirror images of each other.  The mere fact that Marriott has for some time pondered models which strengthen developer sales is simply an acknowledgement that Marriott's main goal with MVC is to sell weeks. All MVC owners do however benefit from the secondary fact that Marriott also leverages it's economy of scale and it's travel management acumen to create the MVC-managed resort porfolio which gives all of us choice within the brand as well as ( potentially ) rolling everyone into the MR program. 

But life is not static, and Marriott, like any well-managed corporation is always looking ahead to build market share and enhance the customer experience. It is purely coincidental that an economic recession drops out of the sky whilst Marriott is in the process of implementing changes. If you see the world in Marriott's shoes, you find a TS market that has slowed to a trickle while Marriott undertakes cost-cuttinig and market retrenchment to preserve the core MVC product. Concurrent with the recession are pre-existing trends putting pressure upon MVC developer sales ( rising costs both in terms of acquisition/construction and in terms of sales & efforts to improve margins as well as natural devaluations in the MR program which affect MVC owners differently than MR hotel customers ). When credit was easy and folks queuing up to add weeks, these pressures are not as intense. But the basic problem of how to sustain developer sales remains, even if a recession had never occurred. Hence ideas abound such as internal trading, trading preference to developer purchasers ( how else to convince folks to purchase developer as MR devaluation hamper a MR points strategy with MVC ), new regional/resort-specific 'point systems' and significant discounts or MF incentives for owners who bring additional business to MVC. A lot of creative thinking going on here which at least tells us that Marriott remains committed to MVC in these tough times.

What all of us are becoming increasingly aware of is that this recession has put the brakes on ( what appeared to be ) unlimited growth and price appreciation of specific segments of MVC TS. The better question to ask is how long before *price stability *is re-established ( IOW, MVC does not need large incentives/discounts to sell weeks & prices return to at least their 2008 levels ) and how long after that before we begin to see modest price appreciation in some properties ( across-the-board appreciation is unlikely but some resorts should indeed realize stability & gains as the location and scarcity of land paradigm begins to revive some several years down the road ).

So I occupy a lot of virtual verbage here to make this final observation.  We may be approaching a time when there may be a necessary differentiation between MVC ownership in terms of developer vs. resale purchasers. This does not mean that the later are second class citizens. All owners retain occupancy/trade rights. But given the wallop the recession delivers to the entire economy ( and TS is near the end of this larger food-chain ) MVC may need to confer perks to developer purchasers to address shrinking sales and thus create real incentives to walk through the developer door. Even if LA's 7% quote is a bit off the mark ( not accusing you of anything LA, simply leaving the door open for margin of error in a relative sense   ) the fact still remains that the overwhelming majority of MVC owners are developer purchasers and it will behoove them to insist that Marriott undertake measures which create value for these purchasers.

I know that some will disagree with me, but I sincerely feel that a quasi-equity already exists for *all *MVC owners. Folks who come in via the resale door do so at a significant price discount and their discount  & hence their own resale value is fundamentally pre-determined whereas developer purchases pay up front and hope to leverage value out of the MR option and via price appreciation over the years which decreases the discounting effect of selling one's TS week. In any case it is in the interest of *all *MVC owners that Marriott achieve price stability and eventual price growth as this developer price is the metric from which we begin to establish our own individual resale prices. Of course at this specific moment in time, this pricing mechanism is not functioning, but it is more a question of when and not if this mechanism will return ( sadly it looks to me as if it could be 5 years or more before we see what one would call true stability in TS pricing  ).

At the very least we live through some very interesting times, both in the sense of the national economy and in our case here, the world of MVC timeshare.  If you think I sound like a Marriott cheerleader you are mistaken. I'm looking at this eye-wide-open and I have my interest as an MVC owner in mind -- I simply acknowledge the obvious fact that our fate is ultimately tied to Marriott. Hopefully others will keep their eyes on the moving MVC ball. In the mean time, keep enjoying your week(s) as time will eventually unfold lots of answers to questions that can not be answered at this moment.

Barry


----------



## FlyerBobcat

Latravel said:


> Only a very small percentage of people buy resale (less than 7%) and i'm sure most have internet access.



In additional to the question just raised about this "fact"...  does this 7% number refer to the total/existing TSs in the MVCI system? I might find this number believable, since every TS is sold "developer" to start with...

But of ALL Marriott TSs being sold at this time (i.e.  in the last few months), do we think that only 7% are resales???


----------



## NWL

dioxide45 said:


> Strangely the original post was actually about USE RULES, not changes to how someone would exchange their week. There was never mention of an internal exchange system in the original post.



Correct, but it did bring up the old "direct vs. resale" point which morphed into a discussion of the internal trading system rumor.  I still think it was a "planned attack".   



SueDonJ said:


> But it isn't only one salesperson who has mentioned the rumored internal exchange system, reports from sales staff all over saying similar things are happening more and more frequently.  Plus, DaveM was willing to put his TUG reputation on the line when he repeated information he'd received from a trusted Marriott insider - Dave isn't exactly some guy we don't know from Adam.
> 
> And so what if an internal points exchange system never comes to fruition?  What's the harm in discussing possibilities?  I learn something new every time these discussions happen on TUG - doesn't everyone?



Members have reported in the past that just as many sales reps have said "no" to an internal trading system as have said "yes", as well as to whether direct buyers will have any advantage over resale buyers.  Spirited discussions help keep us on our toes.  I just wish this thread had been started for the right reasons.  I'm not taking sides.  Just waiting on the official word from Marriott.  



jerseyfinn said:


> I figured this thread would turn into something akin to a 'timeshare teaparty' ( though I do not view advocates of MVC change as unrealistic nor Marriott as the Bush bad-guy in this unfolding timeshare saga ).
> 
> I agree with *DaveM's *take which is that change is coming to MVC and that it has been long in the making. At this time we know nothing beyond this and I'll not speculate about "what if's". I do however see opportunity for many MVC owners to leverage something from Marriott if we provide feedback to Marriott as real facts begin to trickle out. In other words, now  ( like any time ) is a good time to send your thoughts and concerns to Marriott about what sort of product MVC should be. Not that we get a vote here, but simply as owner feedback to help Marriott gauge  our thoughts/expectations.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with *Latravel* who suggests that Marriott is a big corporation weathering a storm just like the rest of us. Of course MVC's business is ( selling) timeshare and it is entirely reasonable that Marriott will on occassion seek to alter/improve/reassess the business from time to time as nothing in life is static. Let's wait and see what this really means as a good company will maintain a partnership with their customers.
> 
> Barry



Well said.

Cheers!


----------



## DanCali

Dave M said:


> I agree. Buying most timeshares doesn't make financial sense. So what?
> ...
> We buy many things, including timeshares, because we want to and we can. I don't see anything wrong with that.



Nothing wrong with that... but did you feel that way when you made the purchase decision? 

My point is that for the 95% of Marriott owners who bought retail, the sales pitch was that it does make financial sense... "prepaid vacations", "cost of owning versus renting" etc... when most people make the purchase decision (retail or resale for that matter) they do it because they believe it will save them money versus renting. That math doesn't work out in most cases, especially if you include the opportunity cost of the initial purchase and even more so if you bought for 5 figures and assume that timeshares depreciate to zero.

If your initial assumption is that renting is cheaper and more flexible but you want to buy a timshare anyway just because you can then my comments above don't apply...


----------



## Swice

*Can we be patient?*

Can we just be a little bit patient?

Marriott is a company in the business to make money (please make my stock go up  ).   Anyway, I can't believe it would "devalue" the product it's trying to sell.

If the company can add to the product to make it more desirable (and sellable), that's terrific.   That's what any smart company would do.

Surely Marriott is smart enough to "protect" its brand and not tarnish itself with the "used car sales" tactics of some other timeshare companies.   The fact that Marriott was "above" the other timeshare companies is why we bought Marriott.   

If the new program makes our weeks more flexible then that would certainly add to the "value" of the brand and the weeks I own.


----------



## DanCali

jerseyfinn said:


> I agree with *DaveM's *take which is that change is coming to MVC and that it has been long in the making. At this time we know nothing beyond this and I'll not speculate about "what if's". I do however see opportunity for many MVC owners to leverage something from Marriott if we provide feedback to Marriott as real facts begin to trickle out. In other words, now  ( like any time ) is a good time to send your thoughts and concerns to Marriott about what sort of product MVC should be. Not that we get a vote here, but simply as owner feedback to help Marriott gauge  our thoughts/expectations.



So far there are zero facts that have tricked out directly from Marriott. Has anyone officially confirmed (in writing) there are changes coming? That it will be a point system? That it will happen in June (2010)? 

Even the rumormongering salespeople trying to close a sale are careful not to put any of this stuff in writing...


----------



## DanCali

Swice said:


> Can we just be a little bit patient?
> 
> Marriott is a company in the business to make money (please make my stock go up  ).   Anyway, I can't believe it would "devalue" the product it's trying to sell.



Devaluing the product it is trying to sell and devaluing the product you will one day try to sell are not the same thing...

Suppose they come out with a rule that resale owners can book 90 days out... it doesn't affect the product Marriott sells in any way but what does it do to what you own?


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Why Wyndham? Why not Hilton or maybe a trust based system like DRI or Bluegreen?
> 
> I think the hole in your boat is assuming that the majority of owners buying from the developer are informed consumers. I don't believe that's the case. I really don't see this as having a major impact on Marriott developer sales unless Marriott believes that they're losing business to developers that do have a points based system. Maybe Marriott salesmen are having trouble competing with points based systems like Hilton's, Starwoods and DVC's.
> 
> At any rate, as I see it, the typical developer sale is some tourist couple fresh off the street that doesn't have a clue about timesharing. That demographic won't care what Marriott did before any change. That's because they won't have a clue how Marriott did it before.
> 
> I just don't see this as being as big a deal as some are making it out to be. We've owned since 1998. The only constant has been change. I suspect Marriott will make some sort of change if only because so many other systems are going points based and they have to compete with those system.



Made it to Maui 

Marriott will do whatever makes money for their stockholders - that's how Capitalism works; we each do what's best for us and it all works out in the long run.

I have only 1 point that frosts me - I'm an evil resale and need to be punished.

Punishing customers seems to be something America loves to do - I just flew 10 hours from St. Louis to Maui and had many punishing experience with the airline.  Maybe that's why the industry keeps circling the toilet all the time.

If Marriott want's to provide an internal exchange system for ALL Marriott owners then that's a plus on my books.  If they simply want a sales gimmick (which is what all the rumors are all about) then that will hurt ALL owners in resale values.

There is nothing to stop Marriott to completely emulate Wyndham and stop resales completely and implement all the other gimmicks that cause Wyndham owners' resale value to be discounted 95% from current sales.

I suppose a few years of that and Marriott can then snap up hoards of their units for 5 cents on the dollar and not risk building new resorts.

Anyway I'm officially on vacation and will get back in 2 weeks and I'm sure Marriott will keep spreading the rumor and when we take our tour at MOC I'll even ask about it.

Aloha...


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Made it to Maui
> 
> Marriott will do whatever makes money for their stockholders - that's how Capitalism works; we each do what's best for us and it all works out in the long run.
> 
> I have only 1 point that frosts me - I'm an evil resale and need to be punished.
> 
> Punishing customers seems to be something America loves to do - I just flew 10 hours from St. Louis to Maui and had many punishing experience with the airline.  Maybe that's why the industry keeps circling the toilet all the time.
> 
> If Marriott want's to provide an internal exchange system for ALL Marriott owners then that's a plus on my books.  If they simply want a sales gimmick (which is what all the rumors are all about) then that will hurt ALL owners in resale values.
> 
> There is nothing to stop Marriott to completely emulate Wyndham and stop resales completely and implement all the other gimmicks that cause Wyndham owners' resale value to be discounted 95% from current sales.
> 
> I suppose a few years of that and Marriott can then snap up hoards of their units for 5 cents on the dollar and not risk building new resorts.
> 
> Anyway I'm officially on vacation and will get back in 2 weeks and I'm sure Marriott will keep spreading the rumor and when we take our tour at MOC I'll even ask about it.
> 
> Aloha...




It seems to be the only ones wanting to punish the evil resale buyers are salesmen. I'm pretty certain most of us can agree that salesmen aren't the best source of information and that they'll slant it to fit what they believe are their needs at the time. All they want to do is make the sale that is sitting in front of them right now. If they have to stretch the truth a bit to do that, then they will. 

Will any new system punish resale buyers? Maybe, maybe not. DRI won't allow resale buyers into their points based internal exchange system unless they pay a joiner fee or buy addtional inventory direct from the developer. HGVC, on the other hand, doesn't care if you buy resale or direct. All members are in their points based system. 

Which way will Marriott go.......if they go at all? Right now no one really knows. All I know is that I'm not going to get my shorts in a knot over something some salesman when he thought he had something to gain by saying it.


----------



## JimIg23

PerryM said:


> There is nothing to stop Marriott to completely emulate Wyndham and stop resales completely and implement all the other gimmicks that cause Wyndham owners' resale value to be discounted 95% from current sales..



I am a bit confused on Wyndham in general.  I thought both direct owners and resale owners have points and can use the points at the same time and the  same way.  What do people think caused the 95% value on resale?


----------



## timeos2

*Owner negative resale policies and sales lies can do the trick*



JimIg23 said:


> I am a bit confused on Wyndham in general.  I thought both direct owners and resale owners have points and can use the points at the same time and the  same way.  What do people think caused the 95% value on resale?



Yes to your use assumption. The use is the same regardless of how you purchase.

Wyndham has saturated the market with expensive retail points while get people to buy into the idea that "VIP", little more than a slick sales gimmick, actually matters.  For a number of reasons - no guarantee of benefits, outrageous cost to qualify, multiple levels of qualification for those limited benefits and more -  VIP isn't a good value. Worse yet they could devalue it or even drop it after you pay dearly to have it and, since it is not guaranteed, you are out the money and have no recourse. But because resale buyers are prohibited from being "VIP" it started a spiral downward for resale Wyndham points vales. Not the only reason for sure but along with other negative comments and moves toward resales Wyndham managed to tank the value to nearly zero on resale. 

How a company can continue to sell a product that is only 2% different (the "maybe" value of VIP) at 95%+ over what it can be easily purchased for at resale is a mystery. It shows how uninformed the buyers really are. To make it worse those that get suckered into a retail purchase find out after the 7 - 10 day rescind period is over that their dream vacation purchase is now worth less than 10% of what they paid - literally on day 11 - and now THEY are unhappy new owners! What a way to run a company. Now we have unhappy people dumping what they feel was a ripoff and willing to sell at any cost. They aren't happy to use what they bough as they feel taken.  Pushing down prices.  And there are a lot of them. Pushing down prices.  

Wyndham is doing a great job of manipulating the perceived value at resale. Too bad they don't want to support resale value as much as they want to degrade it. As it is resale buyers smart enough to learn the truth get an incredible bargain on a great timeshare system  while what should be the most valuable customers - direct sales - are often disillusioned and have literally lost tens of thousands of dollars just days after buying and feel tricked at best - royally shafted at worst. What a way to operate a service based  company.  If they wanted to ruin the resale market for their product they did an incredible job.


----------



## m61376

Very interesting thread- just been catching up after a wonderful relaxing week away from the snow  .

While I wasn't wasting vacation time playing on the Internet so was unaware of this thread, I had an interesting discussion while away, very different than what was posted here. I was told that the powers that be had filtered down instructions not even to discuss the rumored points system and that it may never be introduced. My source indicated that the whole thing was quite iffy at this point.

That said, I agree with some and disagree with other points already mentioned. I strongly believe that Marriott will, ultimately, do what is in Marriott's best interests. IF any new system is developed it will be to enhance their profits. 

I also, albeit sadly, recognize that Marriott needs to enhance developer sales in order to maintain a profitable business model and to hopefully continue to build new resorts, and their current trading for point system has deteriorated in value (and thus holds less attraction for potential buyers) over time. Coupled with a more savvy buying audience (a natural byproduct of increased Internet access and ubiquitous usage) they may need to devise a different marketing strategy.

Thus, regrettably, I do foresee the possibility of them implementing a deterrent to resale purchases in the new system. HOWEVER, while I foresee that for future resale transactions because it may make business sense, I strongly feel that current resale owners will be grandfathered in (so, Kathy, your new St. Kitts purchase is a wise move- hope you got a great deal), because frankly there would be no benefit to Marriott to penalize any current owner (since the sale is already made). I know others have mentioned that, by charging more to join Marriott would make a few dollars more, so it "might" be to their benefit to do so, but I think that that small benefit would be far outweighed by two things- first, they want as many owners (regardless of how they purchased) to join the system. If it doesn't get a "wow" reception it can be a financial bust for MCVI. Including the 7% of resale purchases helps augment the initial joiners. The other issue is good will- and while some here don't think that's too important, I think that's a huge issue. While only 7% of purchases may be resale, many if not most of those sales have been to developer owners. Marriott wants to keep that loyal customer base happy. After all, they are potential future direct purchasers of any new property.

Or- they can take the high road. How do HGVC and DVC maintain their sales while including all owners in their points system, with no distinction between resale and direct purchasers? Contrast customer satisfaction (and likely product loyalty) with Starwood. It would be interesting to see if they suffer from the escalating MF default rate that Starwood seems to be suffering from. I share the fear that IF Marriott penalizes resale buyers in the future everyone's ownership becomes devalued.

And, while it is true that Marriott takes great pains to cover themselves and not imply any inherent future value, just as any new IPO or stock, etc., does, saleability depends on implied future value, because otherwise the product would be difficult to sell if a buyer assumed that his/her entire "investment" vaporized as soon as the check was cashed. Is part of DVC's success  dependent on the perception of retained value? Maybe just offering a better product (such as Marriott perceives the point system will be) is in itself enough of an enticement to buy from Marriott, and they can take the high road (as DVC and HGVC have before them) and just use customer satisfaction to sustain their sales. Marriott, in reality, has the potential to have the best product out there, because it already had a broad resort base.

The bigger hurdle I see is how to sustain the viability of off season ownership with four figure MF's. Savvy owners who have travel flexibility can use these weeks to their advantage today and, while such trade "upgrades" may seem unfair to some, the system is sustained by those owners taking advantage of unused weeks justifying their payment of escalating MF's. IF off season ownership only gives the equivalent of a few days at a nicer locale or a smaller unit, we may experience large scale defaults, and I foresee that as a very real problem. 

The other issue is that Platinum owners at premium resorts will be the big winners, but even Platinum owners at other resorts will likely suffer some and may no longer quality for similar exchanges (for ex., an MMC Plat. owner may no longer be able to get the same unit size for a week in the Caribbean or Hawaii). I think that's going to be a big problem for many owners. And if a precedent is set to differentiate between different Plat. ownerships, then what happens if/when new resorts are added down the road? Will Marriott create an enhanced point valuation just to foster sales, making it impossible even for premium week owners to trade like for like at future resorts (again, look at how Starwood has done that, so that point allocations for some resorts don't really make sense and it acts to deter certain owners from ever depositing their owned week so that certain resorts are next to impossible to exchange into.)?

Time will tell.... I hope IF Marriott makes changes they create a system that incorporates the best features of their competitor's and recognizes the pitfalls of others.


----------



## billymach4

And the free market research and analysis for Marriott keeps on running......................   Just like the Energizer Bunny!:deadhorse:


----------



## winger

m61376 said:


> ... The other issue is good will- and while some here don't think that's too important, I think that's a huge issue. While only 7% of purchases may be resale, many if not most of those sales have been to developer owners. Marriott wants to keep that loyal customer base happy. After all, they are potential future direct purchasers of any new property.
> ....


It looks like Marriott has lost sight of the good-will concept, of keeping existing owners happy.

I already know first hand over a dozen Marriott owners (each are multiple unit owners) who have a bitter taste in their mouths over the recent 2009Jan Marriott Reward Points devaluation - their main reason (including us) to purchase direct was the option of exchanging their annual MVCI unit for Marriott Reward Points for use in hotels around the world, which is a highly touted option used by MVCI salesmen all over.

These owners are friends, neighbors, and even one co-worker.  Ownership include Manor Club, Custom House Myrtle Beach, Marriott Maui, Newport Beach, one of the Palm Springs MVCI, and Timber Lodge.  All of these folks are rather influential folks in their respective fields (IT, attorneys, medical, and marketing), and they like I will no longer recommend buying direct, developer units.


----------



## winger

billymach4 said:


> And the free market research and analysis for Marriott keeps on running......................   Just like the Energizer Bunny!:deadhorse:


My gut feel is Marriott has lost its edge in the Timeshare business - my gut feel is rarely wrong.


----------



## PerryM

*The Dummies Guide to Timeshares*

What is 1/52 of a condo in Maui worth?  (Just as an example)

Well it’s easy to find the market value of a condo – just look it up in the MSL and compare it to similar condos up for sale and you can then pay a few hundred dollars to an appraiser to give you and educated guess what the market value is at that second in time.

The truth is that a timeshare is worth what the most ignorant buyer will pay for it.  Dummies rule the timeshare world it seems.  Throw in the owner who has to get cash for his timeshare and when the buying dummy meets the selling dummy a sale is made.

(The Dummies Guide to Timeshares is where all this comes from.)

Marriott used to support this lowest price by becoming the buying dummy and buying at about 60% of the current sales price.

But it seems that Marriott woke up one day and decided that being the dummy made no cents (sense) and thus Marriott could care less what resales go for now – they’re no dummy.

My guess is that Marriott has studied the success of Wyndham and decided to drop the ROFR at 60% and lower that to 5% and anything that helps prices plummet to those basement rates is something to cheer.  Hence the new Internal Point system they have cheering for 4 years now.

To many Marriott owners they could care less and the smart ones can’t do anything about it anyway.

Dummies rule!!  (This dummy is off to the beach to kick sand and not snow; if I see a horse I'll kick it too...)


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## jlf58

I actually agree with below. I will throw you guys a bone re new points program

1. It IS coming June or shortly after 
2. You don't have to join
3. direct purchasers will pay a nominal fee to join
4. resale purchasers will pay more ( how much, I don't know )
5. For people who join and own Platinum high demand weeks, it will be a Gold  mine. Some others, not so much so just don't join



The only way it will hurt people who don't join is there will be less II inventory but it will take 5 or 6 years before you notice as this will  not take off as excpected IMHO ....


I am done on the subject, back to sprinkling pixie dust on myself 





winger said:


> My gut feel is Marriott has lost its edge in the Timeshare business - my gut feel is rarely wrong.


----------



## Twinkstarr

Fletch said:


> I actually agree with below. I will throw you guys a bone re new points program
> 
> 1. It IS coming June or shortly after
> 2. You don't have to join
> 3. direct purchasers will pay a nominal fee to join
> 4. resale purchasers will pay more ( how much, I don't know )
> 5. For people who join and own Platinum high demand weeks, it will be a Gold  mine. Some others, not so much so just don't join
> 
> The only way it will hurt people who don't join is there will be less II inventory but it will take 5 or 6 yars before you notice as this will  not take off as excpected IMHO ....
> 
> I am done on the subject, back to sprinkling pixie dust on myself



I was told #5 by one of your former Marriott coworkers.


----------



## ocdb8r

I think the success or failure of the program will depend on the cost.  I don't think Marriott will be able to successfully convert people on a benefits proposition alone.  If they reasonably undercut the costs associated with II, I think they will be fairly successful.  The majority of Marriott owners prefer to exchange back into Marriott and if they feel they have a better chance at that with the new system AND can save some $$$ while doing so, I think it will take off.  If Marriott doesn't undercut the cost of going through II, I agree that it won't really take off.


----------



## ecwinch

Fletch said:


> I actually agree with below. I will throw you guys a bone re new points program
> 
> 1. It IS coming June or shortly after
> 2. You don't have to join
> 3. direct purchasers will pay a nominal fee to join
> 4. resale purchasers will pay more ( how much, I don't know )
> 5. For people who join and own Platinum high demand weeks, it will be a Gold  mine. Some others, not so much so just don't join
> 
> 
> 
> The only way it will hurt people who don't join is there will be less II inventory but it will take 5 or 6 years before you notice as this will  not take off as excpected IMHO ....
> I also thing some of the rules make no sense ( going against conventional points programs) but more to follow after it's rolled out
> 
> I am done on the subject, back to sprinkling pixie dust on myself



Beyond #3 and #4, you have those people who bought resale through Marriott. Unless you feel they are included in #3.


----------



## winger

ecwinch said:


> ... you have those people who bought resale through Marriott. Unless you feel they are included in #3.


Those who bought resale through Marriott will be considered #3 - *otherwise Marriott will have at least one class action suit against it*.


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## tidefan

*A bit off-topic, but related...*

Just wanted to float a theory...

I follow these boards as my in-laws have a Legend's Edge week that they typically deposit in the FL club and then lock off and trade with great success.  Also, I am a DVC and DRI (deeded week - no club for me - got this one resale while it was still Sunterra...) owner.

As you may know, DVC switched about a year and a half ago from II to RCI, much to the chagrin of DVC and MVCI owners both.  The setup for DVC was a 2 year contract with RCI.  Now, I know that many people have supposed that relationship will continue in the future, but there has been discussions on the DVC boards from time to time that perhaps DVC would try to leave the exchanging companies for good and go out on it's own with other large, well-branded systems (i.e. - Marriott, HGVC, etc.), and just do their own exchanging.  Why let the exchange companies get the profit from the exchanges?

Anyway, as I am reading all of this, these discussions popped back into my head.  I wonder if some of the major players may be making adjustments to go to a shared exchange system and leave the RCIs and IIs out of it all-together?  Breaking Marriott reservations into some point basis would surely make it easier to exchange with a DVC or an HGVC.

All purely speculation and probably way off base, but it does bear thought...


----------



## AwayWeGo

*That's So Crazy It Just Might Make Sense.*




tidefan said:


> I wonder if some of the major players may be making adjustments to go to a shared exchange system and leave the RCIs and IIs out of it all-together?  Breaking Marriott reservations into some point basis would surely make it easier to exchange with a DVC or an HGVC.


What better way to push back against resales while also positioning themselves as _The Upscale Timeshares_ (in a world where all the others are mere dogs & cats) than to set up their own exclusive full-freight points-based _Upscale Only_ timeshare exchange scheme -- Disney, Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton, Sheraton, etc.  

_Mox nix_ whether the actual timeshares involved are or are not higher quality than any of the others not included in the new arrangement, just so they can market themselves as _Upscale Only._ 

Lots of people like the idea of exclusivity & many folks willingly pay more for premium brands.  No reason some of the timeshare companies can't band together to make that work for them, leaving the rest of us downscale & resale timeshare folks stuck with swapping only among the dogs of I-I & the cats of RCI. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## Pit

AwayWeGo said:


> ... leaving the rest of us downscale & resale timeshare folks stuck with swapping only among the dogs of I-I & the cats of RCI.



... not that there's anything wrong with that.


----------



## DanCali

Fletch said:


> I actually agree with below. I will throw you guys a bone re new points program
> 
> 1. It IS coming June or shortly after
> 2. You don't have to join
> 3. direct purchasers will pay a nominal fee to join
> 4. resale purchasers will pay more ( how much, I don't know )
> 5. For people who join and own Platinum high demand weeks, it will be a Gold  mine. Some others, not so much so just don't join



This sounds so familiar that I have to ask...

Dave - is Fletch your "unnamed reliable source"?



*(quote below is from a different thread)*


Dave M said:


> This comes from a Marriott insider who has never given me inaccurate info:
> 
> The internal points and internal exchange program that I announced on this forum about two years ago as being "in development" is currently scheduled to become operative in about May/June 2010. (Obviously, delays are possible.)
> 
> Those who bought directly from Marriott will pay a relatively low fee if they choose to join the points program...
> 
> Those who bought resale will pay a higher fee, possibly much higher, if they wish to join...
> 
> Marriott's intent is to make it easy enough for most owners to join so that the points program will work effectively....
> 
> Also, Marriott expects to make it easy enough for most owners to join that the huge majority of available exchange weeks will be exchanged through the internal points system...
> 
> This will be a money-maker for Marriott, as anticipated all along. Instead of II getting the exchange fee for those Marriott to Marriott exchanges, Marriott will get it....


----------



## jlf58

I didn't exactly give top secret info. EVERYONE in MVCI knows June is the roll out date and the rest is pretty basic. The funny thing is it has been repoted here by 1 dozen people but nobody believes them since a salesman told them . Although I know Dave like I know many TUGers, we don't talk that often. Dave bought from a guy in my office who no longer is around so I kinda adopted him. For the record, I was never able to close him on another week  





DanCali said:


> This sounds so familiar that I have to ask...
> 
> Dave - is Fletch your "unnamed reliable source"?
> 
> 
> 
> *(quote below is from a different thread)*


----------



## ocdb8r

tidefan said:


> Just wanted to float a theory...
> 
> I follow these boards as my in-laws have a Legend's Edge week that they typically deposit in the FL club and then lock off and trade with great success.  Also, I am a DVC and DRI (deeded week - no club for me - got this one resale while it was still Sunterra...) owner.
> 
> As you may know, DVC switched about a year and a half ago from II to RCI, much to the chagrin of DVC and MVCI owners both.  The setup for DVC was a 2 year contract with RCI.  Now, I know that many people have supposed that relationship will continue in the future, but there has been discussions on the DVC boards from time to time that perhaps DVC would try to leave the exchanging companies for good and go out on it's own with other large, well-branded systems (i.e. - Marriott, HGVC, etc.), and just do their own exchanging.  Why let the exchange companies get the profit from the exchanges?
> 
> Anyway, as I am reading all of this, these discussions popped back into my head.  I wonder if some of the major players may be making adjustments to go to a shared exchange system and leave the RCIs and IIs out of it all-together?  Breaking Marriott reservations into some point basis would surely make it easier to exchange with a DVC or an HGVC.
> 
> All purely speculation and probably way off base, but it does bear thought...



A few major issues with this.... 1) remeber that these people are basically each other's biggest competition.  It would take quite an act to get them to cooperate in this sort of way.  2) II and RCI would still be needed to fill gaps that these guys don't fill...there is still a decent of demmand to trade into areas not served by the big names.  3) Given #2, the benefits of such a system would have to be substantial and outweigh the nightmare of administration.  

While all three may have similar brand clout ,(give or take) they are not equals.  No one comes close to Marriott in scope and I doubt the smaller guys would be willing to grant the sort of concessions Marriott would want to participate (as the largest supplier).  

I also think II and RCI are quite willing to compensate these guys sufficiently for an external system while offering additonal inventory and dealing with the headache of administration.  At this point, I don't think any consortium would see sufficient additional return for abandoning the exisiting players EXCEPT for internal trades which are much more easy to administer as they control the properties and to an extent the inventory.


----------



## DanCali

Fletch said:


> I didn't exactly give top secret info.



To us or Dave ?



Fletch said:


> EVERYONE in MVCI knows June is the roll out date and the rest is pretty basic. The funny thing is it has been repoted here by 1 dozen people but nobody believes them since a salesman told them . Although I know Dave like I know many TUGers, we don't talk that often. Dave bought from a guy in my office who no longer is around so I kinda adopted him. For the record, I was never able to close him on another week



Sure - not top secret info.

But most tuggers would severely discount anything said by a salesperson to someone else in a presentation in an effort to close a sale... And if we do that then it'd be nice to know if you and Dave represent the same source or two independent sources.

From your post it sounds like you are the same source - but it's not unequivocal


----------



## PerryM

*The bombing starts in 10 minutes.....*



Fletch said:


> I actually agree with below. I will throw you guys a bone re new points program
> 
> 1. It IS coming June or shortly after
> 2. You don't have to join
> 3. direct purchasers will pay a nominal fee to join
> 4. resale purchasers will pay more ( how much, I don't know )
> 5. *For people who join and own Platinum high demand weeks, it will be a Gold  mine. Some others, not so much so just don't join*
> 
> 
> 
> The only way it will hurt people who don't join is there will be less II inventory but it will take 5 or 6 years before you notice as this will  not take off as excpected IMHO ....
> 
> 
> I am done on the subject, back to sprinkling pixie dust on myself



There are more Bronze, Silver, and Gold weeks in the Marriott system than Platinum and this new exchange system is probably designed to sell those doggy week.  This is why the internal exchange system makes little sense to me; from a sales point.

Platinum Plus Holiday weeks sell out first then Platinum - they don't need anything to help the sales effort.

The problem with this kind of system are the MFs - sure Marriott can sell 2 doggy Silver weeks to some schmuck and tell them to deposit it and they might be able to exchange into a Platinum week but the MFs will kill them; much much cheaper to rent the same villa from Marriott.

I'm guessing that the resale owner will pay a hefty upgrade fee, probably in the range of $2,500 to be able to use the new system - PER WEEK.  That's what I paid for our first Mountain Side to convert the EOY deposit for MRPs to EY.  My second week had the "up-grade fee" built in (right).

*I see NO upside to Marriott owners anywhere - just punishment.*  Can't wait until June.

*The current II exchange system can be converted to handle the need for an Internal Exchange System in 10 minutes* - just change the 24 day "Marriott only" to 6-months and NOTHING else needs to change.  Just a simple eMail to all the salesreps and to the owners.  10-Minutes and a few minutes for the programmers at II and we have our own internal exchange system.

But Nooooooooooooo - that's not the purpose of the exchange system is it.

P.S.
If the Upgrade fee is $2,500 then ALL Marriott resales drop instantly by $2,500.  Pick another number if you want but ALL resales will instantly be devalued by the Upgrade fee.

Thanks a lot Marriott..........


----------



## dioxide45

I have agree with Perry on this to a degree. This will be nothing more than a sales gimmick for Marriott. Much like the trade for points option is today. Trading for points really only sounds great when you are sitting there listening to a sales presentation. When you really look at it, how much it costs, how often one will actually use it,  and the always devaluing of the points, it just doesn't hold a long term value for developer buyers. I know some will disagree, but it really only sounds cool when the salesperson is telling you. This is by definition a sales tool and that is exactly how they use it.

I think if anything were to change, a trade for points option that is measured against MF paid and also allows people to reserve back in to timeshare properties with these points would be the good. Extending the current priority period in II would be a good idea also. Not sure that has to be 6 months though.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

I'm not sure why everyone is getting bent out of shape with this as yet undisclosed change which will likely take place in June.

Just keep your $2,500 (or whatever conversion fee amount) in your pocket and stick with the existing Interval International trading system.

II has worked well for most in the past, is there some specific reasons it wouldn't work well in the future?

I don't think a lot of owners out there are going to shell out more money into a yet unproven change in the system...  my opinion of course.

How do we celebrate the change?   Do we dance with the banana or just frown with progress:annoyed:


----------



## jlf58

Does Dave know the people I know, I doubt it. If we have the same answers, its just because they are correct answers which many MVCI people know 



DanCali said:


> To us or Dave ?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure - not top secret info.
> 
> But most tuggers would severely discount anything said by a salesperson to someone else in a presentation in an effort to close a sale... And if we do that then it'd be nice to know if you and Dave represent the same source or two independent sources.
> 
> From your post it sounds like you are the same source - but it's not unequivocal


----------



## timeos2

*It was only a matter of time*



dioxide45 said:


> I have agree with Perry on this to a degree. This will be nothing more than a sales gimmick for Marriott. Much like the trade for points option is today. Trading for points really only sounds great when you are sitting there listening to a sales presentation. When you really look at it, how much it costs, how often one will actually use it,  and the always devaluing of the points, it just doesn't hold a long term value for developer buyers. I know some will disagree, but it really only sounds cool when the salesperson is telling you. This is by definition a sales tool and that is exactly how they use it.
> 
> I think if anything were to change, a trade for points option that is measured against MF paid and also allows people to reserve back in to timeshare properties with these points would be the good. Extending the current priority period in II would be a good idea also. Not sure that has to be 6 months though.



You don't have to look far to see other developers who get even more than $2500 from existing owners to join a glorified points based exchange. That would be a bargain.  You can only hope they don't want your deed and voting rights and that they allow resale of that membership - many don't. Despite what appears to be a serious upfront cost to merely add a new exchange option while possibly giving up your current ownership many otherwise seemingly happy owners buy in!  After it's too late they may (or may not) figure out that they gave up too much and got little but they are blinded by the slick, polished sales pitch that Marriott will have honed just like all the others. Marriott has stood on the sidelines as others made big money basically reselling the same products a second or third time. They had to be drooling. Owners can only hope that issues like high fees get addressed as part of the process - ie more points =higher fees (but don't plan on it). 

Like the value of destination clubs, DVC holding value "forever", the best timeshare in the World being a good buy:ignore: , the always dependable ROFR propping up resale values (you should ask for MORE when your week doesn't sell, remember that beautiful advice from not long ago?) and now the "never happen" idea of Marriott creating an internal exchange the prognostication success of some around TUG and other sites hasn't been shown to be very good. In fact doing the opposite would have been a great path to follow for almost guaranteed success. This is another example where the big company will do what they want to make sure they make money. Who or what gets hurt (or benefits) is mere fall out that they couldn't care less about. 

It has been a virtual certainty that Marriott would have an internal system for a number of years. They are too smart to depend on others and give up that income. The only question has been when and now it appears that time is almost here. Figure out if you win or lose by buying in and go forward from there. Marriott will get theirs with or without the few that are truly informed via TUG or others.  And they know it. Never underestimate the lack of knowledge for most people involved in a timeshare sales presentation. They are ready to be taken, owners or not.


----------



## Clemson Fan

OK, now that Fletch has hit the thread I'd like to ask a question.  I understand a new points system for internal exchanges is coming in June and there will be a different buy-in amount whether you purchased direct or resale.  I think that has been pretty well confirmed.

What has not confirmed is whether making reservations at your home resort will be impacted or changed.  IOW, having nothing to do with trading, will there be a difference between resale vs direct purchasers in making reservations for use at their home resort?  Will the 13 month rule be impacted in any way?  There have been rumors that resale purchasers will only be able to make reservations from 6 months to only a few weeks out.  This is actually what the OP was about.  I don't think I've seen a post from a reliable source confirming this rumor.

So Fletch, is there any truth to that rumor?

For disclosure, I own a 1 bedroom MGC week that I bought resale a couple of years ago mainly for 13 month booking help. I'm thinking of selling it and am constantly debating on whether to sell it before or after this change in June comes.

TIA for any insight.  Best wishes with DVC.  I recently bought 250 points at VGC directly through DVC telesales.


----------



## jlf58

I don't want to get sucked into a million questions but it is Sunday . From what I know, changing booking windows is not on the radar for June so keep your GC week. I think they do want another gotcha for resale buyers but with points coming, they will want to keep the owners as happy as possible. The worst thing MVCI did was drop right of first refusal as that along with other factors are killing direct sales. As far as points, it IS to make the program more flexible, PERIOD. There is nothing worst than telling an owner in Maui that when he trades to Orlando, he gets the same 7 nights when he paid $80,000 and the orlando owner paid $25,000. Now his Maui oceanfront might get him 12 days in Orlando. Makes sense ? You guys need to stop overthinking this and they are trying to help. If you bought resale and own a silver week, just continue to use II and you will be fine.  




Clemson Fan said:


> OK, now that Fletch has hit the thread I'd like to ask a question.  I understand a new points system for internal exchanges is coming in June and there will be a different buy-in amount whether you purchased direct or resale.  I think that has been pretty well confirmed.
> 
> What has not confirmed is whether making reservations at your home resort will be impacted or changed.  IOW, having nothing to do with trading, will there be a difference between resale vs direct purchasers in making reservations for use at their home resort?  Will the 13 month rule be impacted in any way?  There have been rumors that resale purchasers will only be able to make reservations from 6 months to only a few weeks out.  This is actually what the OP was about.  I don't think I've seen a post from a reliable source confirming this rumor.
> 
> So Fletch, is there any truth to that rumor?
> 
> For disclosure, I own a 1 bedroom MGC week that I bought resale a couple of years ago mainly for 13 month booking help. I'm thinking of selling it and am constantly debating on whether to sell it before or after this change in June comes.
> 
> TIA for any insight.  Best wishes with DVC.  I recently bought 250 points at VGC directly through DVC telesales.


----------



## dioxide45

Fletch said:


> I don't want to get sucked into a million questions but it is Sunday . From what I know, changing booking windows is not on the radar for June so keep your GC week.



So if this is true, then the original post was just a big lie to suck people in to yet another internal exchange argument.


----------



## John Cerra

*Devaluation -- What Marriott can and can't do*

If you look at your deed, you are an equal pro-rata owner with some time restrictions on when you can occupy.  If you were to look up the deeds of ownership in a sold out time share, you would see that Marriott owns none.  They CANNOT change the rules of ownership...the deed is driven by the land law of you state, and by-laws are determined by the requirements of the state, and the organization documents in the original offering.  Rules that can be amended by vote require some majority.

So...

Marriott cannot subordinate your interest (deed) to another deed.  Any preferential (direct vs resales) assignment of rooms needs to be allowed by your Home Owners Association. Even then, it is a subordination of rights that I think could be legally challenged in a class action law suit. Make it clear to those folks how you feel.  Demand it be put to a vote if it comes up.

In terms of setting up a new "club,"  Marriott is free to do whatever they want and invite into it whoever they want.  But I doubt that anyone who bought a resale away from them is going to pay $2500 to join.  As a rule, resale buyers "get the joke" and will save their money.  This might hurt II a lot...but I would think Red Weeks would benefit...a lot.

As for the need to give up deeds to join the club...that sounds fishy.  First, Marriott doesn't want to tie up its capital to own deeds (and be required to pay membership fee and taxes.)  They are a services company, not a real estate.  You might surrender right of use individual years, the same way you do in II now.


If you bought a good week in a good place, Marriott will eventually have to decide how badly they want you, rather than vice-versa.


----------



## Clemson Fan

Thanks Fletch!

I agree with you on ROFR and that factored hugely into buying my VGC points directly from DVC.  Knowing that if I needed to sell them that at most I might lose 20% made the purchase a no brainer for me.  I don't think I'll lose anything if I need to sell b/c I got my points through incentives at $88/point.  I really like how DVC supports their product through ROFR.  My guide is Gib McCain.

Having gotchas for a certain class of owner IMO is just plain stupid and a poor business model that doesn't work in the long run.  Just support your product and customers and you'll grow and do well.  DVC is the model for this.  You'll have no problem selling DVC b/c it practically sells itself thanks to DVC really continuing to support the product.


----------



## timeos2

John Cerra said:


> If you look at your deed, you are an equal pro-rata owner with some time restrictions on when you can occupy.  If you were to look up the deeds of ownership in a sold out time share, you would see that Marriott owns none.  They CANNOT change the rules of ownership...the deed is driven by the land law of you state, and by-laws are determined by the requirements of the state, and the organization documents in the original offering.  Rules that can be amended by vote require some majority.
> 
> So...
> 
> Marriott cannot subordinate your interest (deed) to another deed.  Any preferential (direct vs resales) assignment of rooms needs to be allowed by your Home Owners Association. Even then, it is a subordination of rights that I think could be legally challenged in a class action law suit. Make it clear to those folks how you feel.  Demand it be put to a vote if it comes up.



Absolutely correct. You own what you bought and that can't be modified. If it was it is a guaranteed court win. 



John Cerra said:


> In terms of setting up a new "club,"  Marriott is free to do whatever they want and invite into it whoever they want.  But I doubt that anyone who bought a resale away from them is going to pay $2500 to join.  As a rule, resale buyers "get the joke" and will save their money.  This might hurt II a lot...but I would think Red Weeks would benefit...a lot.
> 
> As for the need to give up deeds to join the club...that sounds fishy.  First, Marriott doesn't want to tie up its capital to own deeds (and be required to pay membership fee and taxes.)  They are a services company, not a real estate.  You might surrender right of use individual years, the same way you do in II now.



Believe it people fall for the deed thing. Marriott wouldn't pay the fees the members do - and Marriott would get a fee on top for administration. Its no risk to them. And could be appealing.


----------



## PerryM

*Mammy; it's a double Whammy!*



TheTimeTraveler said:


> *I'm not sure why everyone is getting bent out of shape with this as yet undisclosed change which will likely take place in June.
> 
> Just keep your $2,500 (or whatever conversion fee amount) in your pocket and stick with the existing Interval International trading system.*
> 
> II has worked well for most in the past, is there some specific reasons it wouldn't work well in the future?
> 
> I don't think a lot of owners out there are going to shell out more money into a yet unproven change in the system...  my opinion of course.
> 
> How do we celebrate the change?   Do we dance with the banana or just frown with progress:annoyed:



If you keep the $2,500 and not use the new system you will get scraps from II - the vast majority of Marriott owners will eventually convert.

*That $2,500 can easily become $5,000 week* if you:

1) Pay the $2,500 to upgrade
2) Sell your week and the seller demands you pay an additional $2,500 to allow him access to the new exchange system; it WILL NOT carry forward to the new owner.  Don't want to pay your new owner for the upgrade - fine he will simply reduce his bid by $2,500.  Free markets digest ALL known information and reflect it in bid/ask pricing.

And for what?  I don't hear folks bellyaching about exchanging among Marriott owners - that 24 day II window works just fine.  Marriott knows this and just wants to wring more money out of existing owners for no benefit at all.  They don't care about double whammies hitting every owner.

Double whammy - thanks a lot Marriott....


----------



## m61376

One issue which I am really curious about is will points be tied to MF's? With the Asia Pacific program, each point incurred a set MF, so that Bronze week owners who converted acquired fewer points than Plat. week owners, but also had a lower annual obligation. I really wonder how Marriott will assign points based on season (naturally) but maintain the same MF's at each resort across all seasons despite large variations in point allocation, presumably based on season owned and on view category. I would venture to guess that a Bronze or Silver week owner, who would now get a fraction of the points that a Plat. week owner gets, would expect to pay a lower MF (as occurs in other points based systems); this would create an untenable situation with escalating MF's for Plat. and Gold week owners, who would have to compensate. Alternately, if MF's remain stable across all ownerships, then Bronze and Silver week owners would be paying a proportionally higher MF per point allocated- another inequitable situation. I may be wrong, but I foresee this as a major bone of contention.

Fletch makes a good point about the Maui week owner who paid 80K getting a more equitable trade for additional days when downgrading to an Orlando resort which cost 20K. On the surface, that makes sense. But, what happens when Marriott tries to sell the next resort? Will they artificially inflate the point allocation to increase sales? Fast forward 5 or 10 years- will that new Florida resort be pricier than some of the premium properties originally were? Does that mean newer resorts will increasingly be allocated more points, making it impossible to trade for a full week there even if using a current premium property?


----------



## jlf58

Did you really buy with Westgate ? damn, talk about losing credibility LOL



PerryM said:


> If you keep the $2,500 and not use the new system you will get scraps from II - the vast majority of Marriott owners will eventually convert.
> 
> *That $2,500 can easily become $5,000 week* if you:
> 
> 1) Pay the $2,500 to upgrade
> 2) Sell your week and the seller demands you pay an additional $2,500 to allow him access to the new exchange system; it WILL NOT carry forward to the new owner.  Don't want to pay your new owner for the upgrade - fine he will simply reduce his bid by $2,500.  Free markets digest ALL known information and reflect it in bid/ask pricing.
> 
> And for what?  I don't hear folks bellyaching about exchanging among Marriott owners - that 24 day II window works just fine.  Marriott knows this and just wants to wring more money out of existing owners for no benefit at all.  They don't care about double whammies hitting every owner.
> 
> Double whammy - thanks a lot Marriott....


----------



## RandR

A points system per se is not a bad thing.  When I was trying to decide which system to buy into, I liked the points based approach of Hilton but the selection of Marriott.  I decided to go with Marriott.  The main issue with the new points system that is coming is that it is a change.  Unfortunately in this change, the majority (maybe even vast majority) of owners will lose.

I do not doubt at all what Fletch is saying.  Platinum owners in desirable places with do really well, everyone else....not so much.  Sure the ones that don't do well can just not join the new system.  Well guess what, the ones that will make out like bandits (desirable Platinum owners) will join so much of the best weeks won't be in II.  Plus any new people who buy direct will just be put in the points system so those weeks will never be available.  For those who can travel off season it may not be that bad since they will still have a selection of off season weeks.  Those with kids that must go during school breaks don't have that flexibility.  They will mainly have to go to the property they own.  That's why when I made my buying decision I listened to one of the big rules that many TUGgers told me...buy where you would be happy going.  Even though it was in overbuilt Orlando that is where I bought.  If I now have to use my property every year, I can live with it.  I may not be as happy but I will be going to a place I love.

As far as MF are concerned, I think within the Hilton system it is based on number of bedrooms.  So even though a Bronze week has less points they pay the same MF's as a Platinum week.  That is why I was considering buying a 1BR platinum (4800 points) vs a 2 BR Gold (5000 points).  (Someone please correct me if I have this wrong.)

I also think that within the Hilton system, a couple of the newer Hawaii resorts did have a higher point value than the others.  A large chunk of their properties all have the same points based on number of bedrooms and season.

I do not want to start an ROFR argument here but my one question is, how come the one company that uses ROFR the most, Disney, has the highest prices for their resales?  I know Disney's name carries a lot of weight, but the percentage discount off retail is way lower than for the other systems that don't defend the ROFR.

Bottom line is Marriott is a for profit company with shareholders to please.  That is their first concern, not a bunch of angry TUGgers.  As many others have said, the people here are a small minority of Marriott ts owners.  Most will have no clue about the change or will just go along and not care.  The biggest shame is that they are likely going to be somewhat punitive to resale buyers.  My hope is that they do some form of grandfathering the existing owners.  While I do not want to throw new resale buyers under the bus, they will know the deal when they buy in and can make a decision based on the information.  I have only been an owner for a short time but many resale buyers here on TUG have been owners a long time.  They have paid the same MF's as direct buyers and Marriott has been happy to take their money.  That should be worth some sort of a break.


----------



## urple2

> On the surface, that makes sense. But, what happens when Marriott tries to sell the next resort? Will they artificially inflate the point allocation to increase sales? Fast forward 5 or 10 years- will that new Florida resort be pricier than some of the premium properties originally were? Does that mean newer resorts will increasingly be allocated more points, making it impossible to trade for a full week there even if using a current premium property?



Absolutely!  Just like other point systems when new resorts are built it costs more to build, want more profits thus more points needed for the stay.


----------



## PerryM

*That hole in their foot*



Fletch said:


> Did you really buy with Westgate ? damn, talk about losing credibility LOL



Well I know when I've won an argument when the subject needs to be changed LOL!

Seriously, think about my Summit Watch for a second:

I can now exchange my usage there, Gold for Platinum Holiday, with other owners - have done it several times in the past via II.  I've snowboarded Park City during Christmas week with my $5,500 resale Gold week.  No other Platinum owner wanted it during the 24-day window and Marriott has instructed II to give it to ANY Marriott owner rather than release it to the general II population.

Marriott introduces the new system and I can't do that anymore - what happens to my resale price?

Marriott has decided to interfere with the greatest reason to buy Marriott - the II exchange.  Last time I looked that's what the stats said - usage at the home resort is secondary to exchanging with thousands of other owners at thousands of resorts.

No one can stop this and I think Marriott is just shooting itself in the foot but a year from now the results of this will be measurable.


----------



## PerryM

RandR said:


> A points system per se is not a bad thing.  When I was trying to decide which system to buy into, I liked the points based approach of Hilton but the selection of Marriott.  I decided to go with Marriott.  The main issue with the new points system that is coming is that it is a change.  Unfortunately in this change, the majority (maybe even vast majority) of owners will lose.
> 
> I do not doubt at all what Fletch is saying.  Platinum owners in desirable places with do really well, everyone else....not so much.  Sure the ones that don't do well can just not join the new system.  Well guess what, the ones that will make out like bandits (desirable Platinum owners) will join so much of the best weeks won't be in II.  Plus any new people who buy direct will just be put in the points system so those weeks will never be available.  For those who can travel off season it may not be that bad since they will still have a selection of off season weeks.  Those with kids that must go during school breaks don't have that flexibility.  They will mainly have to go to the property they own.  That's why when I made my buying decision I listened to one of the big rules that many TUGgers told me...buy where you would be happy going.  Even though it was in overbuilt Orlando that is where I bought.  If I now have to use my property every year, I can live with it.  I may not be as happy but I will be going to a place I love.
> 
> As far as MF are concerned, I think within the Hilton system it is based on number of bedrooms.  So even though a Bronze week has less points they pay the same MF's as a Platinum week.  That is why I was considering buying a 1BR platinum (4800 points) vs a 2 BR Gold (5000 points).  (Someone please correct me if I have this wrong.)
> 
> I also think that within the Hilton system, a couple of the newer Hawaii resorts did have a higher point value than the others.  A large chunk of their properties all have the same points based on number of bedrooms and season.
> 
> *I do not want to start an ROFR argument here but my one question is, how come the one company that uses ROFR the most, Disney, has the highest prices for their resales? * I know Disney's name carries a lot of weight, but the percentage discount off retail is way lower than for the other systems that don't defend the ROFR.
> 
> Bottom line is Marriott is a for profit company with shareholders to please.  That is their first concern, not a bunch of angry TUGgers.  As many others have said, the people here are a small minority of Marriott ts owners.  Most will have no clue about the change or will just go along and not care.  The biggest shame is that they are likely going to be somewhat punitive to resale buyers.  My hope is that they do some form of grandfathering the existing owners.  While I do not want to throw new resale buyers under the bus, they will know the deal when they buy in and can make a decision based on the information.  I have only been an owner for a short time but many resale buyers here on TUG have been owners a long time.  They have paid the same MF's as direct buyers and Marriott has been happy to take their money.  That should be worth some sort of a break.



Simple answer - Disney OWNS their villas and sells RTU.  Of course they have a vested interest in the place.  Marriott has NO interest in sold out resorts but hawking old villas along with everyone else.  (And cleaning the toilets too)


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## DanCali

m61376 said:


> While I wasn't wasting vacation time playing on the Internet so was unaware of this thread, I had an interesting discussion while away, very different than what was posted here. I was told that the powers that be had filtered down instructions not even to discuss the rumored points system and that it may never be introduced. My source indicated that the whole thing was quite iffy at this point.



Your post (#164) was phenomenal - very thoughtful and to the point. You also indicate the whole thing may be iffy so I'm curious if you can elaborate more on that?



m61376 said:


> One issue which I am really curious about is will points be tied to MF's? With the Asia Pacific program, each point incurred a set MF, so that Bronze week owners who converted acquired fewer points than Plat. week owners, but also had a lower annual obligation. I really wonder how Marriott will assign points based on season (naturally) but maintain the same MF's at each resort across all seasons despite large variations in point allocation, presumably based on season owned and on view category. I would venture to guess that a Bronze or Silver week owner, who would now get a fraction of the points that a Plat. week owner gets, would expect to pay a lower MF (as occurs in other points based systems); this would create an untenable situation with escalating MF's for Plat. and Gold week owners, who would have to compensate. Alternately, if MF's remain stable across all ownerships, then Bronze and Silver week owners would be paying a proportionally higher MF per point allocated- another inequitable situation. I may be wrong, but I foresee this as a major bone of contention.
> 
> Fletch makes a good point about the Maui week owner who paid 80K getting a more equitable trade for additional days when downgrading to an Orlando resort which cost 20K. On the surface, that makes sense. But, what happens when Marriott tries to sell the next resort? Will they artificially inflate the point allocation to increase sales? Fast forward 5 or 10 years- will that new Florida resort be pricier than some of the premium properties originally were? Does that mean newer resorts will increasingly be allocated more points, making it impossible to trade for a full week there even if using a current premium property?



If it's iffy, I'm not sure why all of a sudden you bought into the whole June deadline and feel compelled to speculate  It's pretty pointless... Just wait and see what (and if it) happens.

To quickly give you my 2 cents about what I think could happen IF they switch to points - I don't think it will be tied to MFs. I view any points system as an attempt to assign trading power. Just like currently Bronze and Silver weeks don't trade as well as Gold and Platinum weeks in II(given II's TDI, which generally corresponds to this) these weeks would get less points. Just like Orlando Platinum doesn't trade as well as Hawaii or NCV or DSV Platinum, it will get less points. And just like Silver and Bronze owners pay the same MFs as Gold and Platinum now, they will keep doing so. The deal was always that Silver and Bronze week owners paid less upfront and have lower trading power (retail or resale for that matter) but MFs are based on unit size. By the way, I also don't think that deeded view will matter when it comes to getting assigned points just like it doesn't affect II trading power today. The deeded view is for owners to secure the view they want when they visit a home resort.

As you jutifiably point out, this has limitations... To paint a grim scenario that can happen in this situation - to make the most of their ownership the Silver/Bronze weeks will prefer to trade with II. But getting Platinum weeks will become harder and harder as those weeks convert to internal trading. This reduced trading ability will cause many of those owners to bail out, resale prices for those weeks will tank, and delinquencies will get passed on to the remaining owners. MFs will skyrocket as a result and the system may implode in a death spiral. It's a grim and maybe very unlikely scenario scenario, but if you don't believe it can happen visit the Starwood Board and read the 2010 MF sticky... 30% year over year increases at some resorts this year. Needless to say that those weeks hardly sell for $1 today... If Starwood doesn't get a hold on things fast, the system may collapse in the near future. If Marriott follows the same path it could end up the same way.

That's why I'm of the opinion if it ain't broken don't try to fix it. Most Marriott owners love the current product and I can't see how they keep everyone as happy in a points system (again, see Starwood satisfaction survey). Unhappy owners walk away and then trouble begins. If selling new resorts in unviable due to the economy or buyers getting smarter, Marriott should be happy with their 10% management fee - and they do have 50 resorts with happy owners. It's been a profitable business model on hotels - no reason to risk upsetting the whole system.

If they take a long term view - I hope you are correct that it may never be introduced.


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## jlf58

TUG is a VERY small %% of owners. The number one complaint of MVCI owners is II. 
BTW Great way to avoid the question. So why would you buy Westagte ?? 



PerryM said:


> Well I know when I've won an argument when the subject needs to be changed LOL!
> 
> Seriously, think about my Summit Watch for a second:
> 
> I can now exchange my usage there, Gold for Platinum Holiday, with other owners - have done it several times in the past via II.  I've snowboarded Park City during Christmas week with my $5,500 resale Gold week.  No other Platinum owner wanted it during the 24-day window and Marriott has instructed II to give it to ANY Marriott owner rather than release it to the general II population.
> 
> Marriott introduces the new system and I can't do that anymore - what happens to my resale price?
> 
> Marriott has decided to interfere with the greatest reason to buy Marriott - the II exchange.  Last time I looked that's what the stats said - usage at the home resort is secondary to exchanging with thousands of other owners at thousands of resorts.
> 
> No one can stop this and I think Marriott is just shooting itself in the foot but a year from now the results of this will be measurable.


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## jlf58

The number one complaint of MVCI owners is II so if you think most owners think II works, you are just flat out wrong. Tug owners like II, not most other owners so now you see why they are doing what they are doing. Are they right ? It doesn't matter.... You don't have to like it or agree with it but MOST owners will welcome the change. You guys can rationalize it all you want, you are in the minority.


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## TheTimeTraveler

So, looking into the future, and purely a guess, Platinum weeks will be the weeks to own, and hence their true resale values could rise?   While those Gold, Silver, and especially Bronze weeks will see their resale values fall due to lessened desire and demand?

And what about current Marriott owners who like to use their weeks to go to other "non Marriott" resorts?   Won't their ability to do so be eliminated if they were to pay to join the new Marriott points program?   That alone could make a lot of people hesitant to join in my opinion.

And then there's the unknown dollar cost to do so....

Lots and lots to ponder......


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## timeos2

*Those who deal with II HATE II. Really.*



Fletch said:


> The number one complaint of MVCI owners is II so if you think most owners think II works, you are just flat out wrong. Tug owners like II, not most other owners so now you see why they are doing what they are doing. Are they right ? It doesn't matter.... You don't have to like it or agree with it but MOST owners will welcome the change. You guys can rationalize it all you want, you are in the minority.



What a breath of fresh air! No wonder I missed your TUG presence! Welcome back (and not just because you speak the II truth so often poo poo'd here on TUG).  Really.  Glad to have you back even if you loved II or denied their problems.  

The insular community here, as great as it is and as wonderful as so many are in helping others is still a tiny minority of the overall timeshare buyers/owners. Too bad, the majority could learn a great deal here, but wouldn't believe most of it anyway.  In most cases it defies all logic that timeshare operates as it does.


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## tidefan

ocdb8r said:


> A few major issues with this.... 1) remeber that these people are basically each other's biggest competition.  It would take quite an act to get them to cooperate in this sort of way.  2) II and RCI would still be needed to fill gaps that these guys don't fill...there is still a decent of demmand to trade into areas not served by the big names.  3) Given #2, the benefits of such a system would have to be substantial and outweigh the nightmare of administration.
> 
> While all three may have similar brand clout ,(give or take) they are not equals.  No one comes close to Marriott in scope and I doubt the smaller guys would be willing to grant the sort of concessions Marriott would want to participate (as the largest supplier).
> 
> I also think II and RCI are quite willing to compensate these guys sufficiently for an external system while offering additonal inventory and dealing with the headache of administration.  At this point, I don't think any consortium would see sufficient additional return for abandoning the exisiting players EXCEPT for internal trades which are much more easy to administer as they control the properties and to an extent the inventory.



Well, to half answer your question, look at DVC now.  There is already the "Buena Vista Trading Company" option that allows DVC members to trade out for a number of Intrawest properties outside of RCI.  I don't know why others couldn't be added to such a setup.  Just charge the $95 trade out fee (well, that is what DVC charges for exchanges outside the club) and let that pay for administration of the system.

As to competition, perhaps so, but are DVC and Marriott really competitors?  Perhaps in Orlando (and maybe Ko Olina), but most people that purchase DVC do so for the parks.  Most that purchase Marriott do so for the breadth of locations.  I could very much see these as complimentary products.  You don't think it would help Marriott to be able to sell availability into DVC?  Likewise, you don't think that it would help DVC to sell availability into Marriott?

There would still be access to II/RCI, but you could prioritize trades between the two systems and both would likely see benefit from such an arrangement.  Of course, the problem to such an arrangement would have been that DVC is a per night point system, whereas Marriott would have been a weekly system.  A conversion to some kind of points could facilitate this type of relationship very well...

Again, I'm not saying that this would ever happen, but there are definitely benefits for some of the bigger companies...


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## PerryM

*Bla Bla Bla is the answer of course...*



Fletch said:


> TUG is a VERY small %% of owners. The number one complaint of MVCI owners is II.
> BTW Great way to avoid the question. So why would you buy Westagte ??



I don't have specific stats for Marriott but general timeshare stats - folks buy timeshares to exchange is what I read from ARDA stats.

If Marriott simply wants to corner the Marriott exchange market by offering the new exchange system to ALL Marriott owners then I'm all for it.

Sadly, Marriott seems hell bent on hurting owners and they will pay the price in many ways.

Hope this helps 

P.S.
If it weren't II it would be RCI and if not RCI then it would be ....

There will be just as many complaints with the new Marriott system - overly complex, overly unfair,  bla bla bla....


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## DanCali

Fletch said:


> The number one complaint of MVCI owners is II so if you think most owners think II works, you are just flat out wrong. Tug owners like II, not most other owners so now you see why they are doing what they are doing. Are they right ? It doesn't matter.... You don't have to like it or agree with it but MOST owners will welcome the change. You guys can rationalize it all you want, you are in the minority.



Let's see how the Carribean 2br Gold week owners who used to get prime summer weeks and could exchange anywhere they wanted to feel when they can't get an equivalent unit size in Hawaii anytime of the year or possibly even in hotel and timeshare saturated Vegas  (well, maybe they'll get 4-5 days in a 2BR... - and be allowed to book stays shorter than 7 days at 90 days out). If those owners choose to rent out their weeks nobody will exchange to those places even if they can get 12 days.

I'm sure Marriott though will emphasize to Hawaii and Vegas prospective buyers how they can get 12 days in Aruba or St. Kitts for their weeks...

This will create more problems than it solves. It's just like what is happening with Starwood's Harborside and St. John resorts... Those 2BR owners can't exchange to a 2BR in Hawaii, Cancun in the summer or winter, or the CA and AZ deserts in Platinum season...

I'm a Starwood disgruntled owners who reshuffled his entire portfolio over the last few months to get into Marriott's system. I still own a Starwood week (one I bought as part of the reshuffling which I want to keep) but now also 2 Marriott weeks. I bought Platinum so I may even welcome any changes if and when they come, but I've seen how a points system is used to benefit the developer and how it can suck for owners. If it's bad for some owners it's hurts other owners in different ways - whether in exchange opportunities or higher MFs when owners default. 

The scenario above where Gold 2BR Carribean weeks cannot get a 2BR  in Hawaii is all but certain in a points system - will those owners welcome the changes?


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## ocdb8r

DanCali said:


> Those 2BR owners can't exchange to a 2BR in Hawaii, Cancun in the summer or winter, or the CA and AZ deserts in Platinum season...



...I'm no Starwood apologist, but as I mentioned before, this is not the case.  Despite a very active internal trading system, I am still able to get into Hawaii (both Maui and Kauai) in every month except July.  I have also got into Harborside in January and had the opportunity in Feb and Sept.  Sure, not amazing, but not horrible.  Cancun hasn't been too bad either (I have a Fall week right now and have seen some winter weeks).

I fully agree that the points system will likely marginalize owners of lower than Platinum weeks...but it's not as if we will be with no options at all.


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## DanCali

ocdb8r said:


> ...I'm no Starwood apologist, but as I mentioned before, this is not the case.  Despite a very active internal trading system, I am still able to get into Hawaii (both Maui and Kauai) in every month except July.  I have also got into Harborside in January and had the opportunity in Feb and Sept.  Sure, not amazing, but not horrible.  Cancun hasn't been too bad either (I have a Fall week right now and have seen some winter weeks).
> 
> I fully agree that the points system will likely marginalize owners of lower than Platinum weeks...but it's not as if we will be with no options at all.



Sure, you can get some of these trades with Starwood. And Hawaii and Cancun are easier that Atlantis. I actually got a summer trade to Atlantis this year too - but it was 7 days in the small 1BR even though in theory I had points for 10+ days in a 2BR or around 18 days in the large 1BR... 

And on the flip end you have the Gold Harborside owners who cannot get 1 week in a 2BR in Hawaii even if they managed to reserve 4th of July week at their home resort and are willing to exchange to Hawaii anytime during the year; they just don't have the points for the week 1-52 Hawaii platinum season no matter what they do...

The bigger point I'm trying to make is that switching to a point system will be a zero sum game in trading power, no matter how it's marketed. For every Hawaii owner who can now go for 12 days to the Carribean and 16 to Orlando you will have the Orlando owner who can get 3 days in Hawaii and the Carribean owner who can get 5. Sure - they will have the option to trade down to a 1BR or studio to get a full week but is this a system that is better than II?

The beauty of II is that it is based on supply and demand. Reserve a strong week, deposit and request far in advance, deposit a larger unit to maximize your trading power. And if you have the flexibility to pick multiple weeks and/or multiple resorts you'll likely get that trade. Why shouldn't those 2BR Harborside (or Aruba, for purposes of discussion here) owners be able to trade to a 2BR in Hawaii if supply and demand dictates it's a fair trade? 

Yes, there is also more flexibility with a point system, especially with booking short stays. But in terms of trading power it is a zero sum game; some people will be better off and some worse off... and it'll be something like a 50%-50% split... and as we've learned from the Starwood situation, when some people are disenchanted and walk away regardless of consequences to their credit scores, everyone suffers.


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## lovearuba

*so stay with II*

I dont see any reason why folks would need to join the new Marriott money making machine.  Why couldn't they just stay with II and give them the week to exchange.  II may have issues but Marriott's goal will be to make more money similar to II.


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## jarta

DanCali,   ...   "Those 2BR owners (at Harborside or St. John) can't exchange to a 2BR in Hawaii, Cancun in the summer or winter, or the CA and AZ deserts in Platinum season..."

I have not found that statment to be accurate.  They certainly can easily make those trades (as always, subject to availability and having the Staroptions to spend) using Starwood's internal trading system.

St. John is historically the hardest Starwood resort to trade into using either Starwood's internal or II's external trading systems.  Harborside is second.  That's because the owners at those resorts either use their week or rent it out - usually at a large profit.  There is usually very little availability for Starwood's internal trading and almost non-existent availability through II.

This year I have traded internally into 2 weeks of 3-br units at St. John: one in Platinum season; one in shoulder season.

If you are talking about owners renting their units at St. John or Harborside there have been lots of posts that it is harder this year than before.  But, most of them are still finding a renter at more than the MF.  The economy has made it much easier to make internal Starwood trades at 8 months out from arrival to all resorts because there is more availability due to less people vacationing.

What has occurred is that the external II trades out of Starwood have been affected due to a new contract between Starwood and II.  However, after much initial angst, there have been recent surprises that the 2 1-brs of a Starwood 2-br lockoff can be split in II and 2 2-br in Hawaii at nice TS resorts during the summer can be snagged.  And, it appears that the Starwood "preference" lasts for weeks now; not just 3 days.  Maybe as many non-Starwood places do not appear in II as before, but most people who have been using the new system are surprised and quite satisfied with their II trading results.

For example, here's a very recent Starwood thread about using 1-brs in II to snag 2-brs in Hawaii and elsewhere.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115722

    ...   eom


----------



## m61376

DanCali said:


> Your post (#164) was phenomenal - very thoughtful and to the point. You also indicate the whole thing may be iffy so I'm curious if you can elaborate more on that?
> 
> What I stated really summed it up- a heretofore reliable source who freely discussed the supposedly future points system stated that he had been told not even to mention it because it basically was in such upheaval that it may never come to fruition.
> 
> If it's iffy, I'm not sure why all of a sudden you bought into the whole June deadline and feel compelled to speculate  It's pretty pointless... Just wait and see what (and if it) happens.
> Because this is a "what if" discussion. Maybe I am a bit of a conspiracy theorist here, but I do believe Marriott insiders peruse these threads and I feel we are a perfect market survey for free. Obviously, it is at least something in the considering phase and I think discussions like these address owner's concerns.
> 
> I think it is very important that Marriott consider the ramifications of penalizing resale owners, for example. True, I have a vested interest, but I really do feel it is in no ones best interests to start a program out by being punitive. I think the company would garner a lot more respect by starting everyone out on an equal footing (at least by grandfathering all current owners who bought into a system with certain expectations; while I still feel that it would be a mistake going forward for all owners due to plummeting values, at least future buyers would know what they were getting into).
> 
> Similarly, I am very concerned with the MF aspect of the points program as Marriott chose to roll it out in the Asia Pacific program- which likely was a testing ground for this one. I am also concerned with the point allocations that would create a system where Platinum Caribbean week owners, Hawaii week owners, winter ski week owners, summer HH owners and perhaps a few others would be big winners and likely on the losing end of the stick. most others would find themselves
> 
> To quickly give you my 2 cents about what I think could happen IF they switch to points - I don't think it will be tied to MFs. I view any points system as an attempt to assign trading power. Just like currently Bronze and Silver weeks don't trade as well as Gold and Platinum weeks in II(given II's TDI, which generally corresponds to this) these weeks would get less points. Just like Orlando Platinum doesn't trade as well as Hawaii or NCV or DSV Platinum, it will get less points. And just like Silver and Bronze owners pay the same MFs as Gold and Platinum now, they will keep doing so. The deal was always that Silver and Bronze week owners paid less upfront and have lower trading power (retail or resale for that matter) but MFs are based on unit size. By the way, I also don't think that deeded view will matter when it comes to getting assigned points just like it doesn't affect II trading power today. The deeded view is for owners to secure the view they want when they visit a home resort.
> 
> As you jutifiably point out, this has limitations... To paint a grim scenario that can happen in this situation - to make the most of their ownership the Silver/Bronze weeks will prefer to trade with II. But getting Platinum weeks will become harder and harder as those weeks convert to internal trading. This reduced trading ability will cause many of those owners to bail out, resale prices for those weeks will tank, and delinquencies will get passed on to the remaining owners. MFs will skyrocket as a result and the system may implode in a death spiral. It's a grim and maybe very unlikely scenario scenario, but if you don't believe it can happen visit the Starwood Board and read the 2010 MF sticky... 30% year over year increases at some resorts this year. Needless to say that those weeks hardly sell for $1 today... If Starwood doesn't get a hold on things fast, the system may collapse in the near future. If Marriott follows the same path it could end up the same way.
> 
> That's why I'm of the opinion if it ain't broken don't try to fix it. Most Marriott owners love the current product and I can't see how they keep everyone as happy in a points system (again, see Starwood satisfaction survey). Unhappy owners walk away and then trouble begins. If selling new resorts in unviable due to the economy or buyers getting smarter, Marriott should be happy with their 10% management fee - and they do have 50 resorts with happy owners. It's been a profitable business model on hotels - no reason to risk upsetting the whole system.
> 
> If they take a long term view - I hope you are correct that it may never be introduced.


I agree, which is why even if this is iffy I think it warrants discussion. Reading through subsequent posts I think the problem with Harborside and St. John owners securing internal Starwood reservations for similar accommodations is that despite the high MF's their point allocations are less than newer resorts, such that it doesn't pay for these owners to give up their weeks, creating a scenario where they either use or rent them. Their MF's have spiraled and their point allocations have remained stagnant, exceeded by newer properties that have lower MF's. 

A lot of what you wrote in subsequent posts makes sense. The only point I'd disagree with is that winter Caribbean weeks will be at the top of the heap imho. For example, Marriott charges $875 for a night in a 2BR OV villa at the Surf Club in Aruba for the night of March 14th (I picked a random night out of curiosity) and $635 for similar accommodations at Ko'Olina. In fact, they charge essentially the same (632) for a mid July Gold period in Aruba. So I would expect Caribbean weeks will exchange for a week anywhere, just as I would expect Hawaii and certain other weeks to be at the top of the heap. 

But- if as Fletch suggested, those owners who won't benefit never join the system, not only will the system be Platinum week heavy and II prime week light, but the reverse will be true, and high quality week owners won't have many less premium properties in the new system to take advantage of being able to get more nights because of higher point values, since most of those weeks may stay in II. So, while it may be good in theory for some, in reality even for those it might be problematic. 

That's not to say I am against a points system, because I can see its benefits. I am just not sure how it can be constructed so that no one feels like a real loser. Losers tend to fight back- look at the huge number of Starwood owners just walking away. Look at the hundreds of dollars other owners have to pay in MF's to compensate for defaults. That's reality- and should concern all of us. IF Marriott doesn't get it right, we all have a lot to lose, even if we don't care about trading.


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## timeos2

*Points and an internal systems have a great appeal especially priced right*



TheTimeTraveler said:


> So, looking into the future, and purely a guess, Platinum weeks will be the weeks to own, and hence their true resale values could rise?   While those Gold, Silver, and especially Bronze weeks will see their resale values fall due to lessened desire and demand?
> 
> And what about current Marriott owners who like to use their weeks to go to other "non Marriott" resorts?   Won't their ability to do so be eliminated if they were to pay to join the new Marriott points program?   That alone could make a lot of people hesitant to join in my opinion.
> 
> And then there's the unknown dollar cost to do so....
> 
> Lots and lots to ponder......



It has been practically universally acknowledged that the only type of ownership to have is always the best level at any resort Marriott no exception. That, along with buy where you want to use, are keystones to successful ownership. 

The idea of rising prices for any timeshare, brand name and top use or not doesn't happen due to a number of factors. It is a buyers market and the appeal of a specific resort/use period has a very limited ability to cause buyers to raise offers. They can quickly decide that merely getting resort XX isn't worth $1K more than the practically equal resorts W, Y , Z and many others. Plus purchase price is a minute amount of the actual cost of ownership. So it makes virtually no sense to pay much premium at purchase when there are many top weeks to pick from (Platinum is a season not a single week/unit), the resale market has been devastated by the economy, the bogus ROFR game ended so even uninformed resale buyers no longer think they have to "meet ROFR" to make the purchase and fees, which represent the true cost, are skyrocketing thus crushing any possible upward trend to resale prices. The only trend is down and that isn't likely to change for a long time if ever. 

Those who opt to join the new internal program will still be able to trade outside of the internal system - it may remain with II, switch to RCI, use both or yet another group, who knows what Marriott will do with that - and they are actually likely to find the trade value obtained will be higher as the total deposits made will be far less than they are now thus raising trade value as demand remains the same or higher and supply will plummet. It actually becomes an incentive to join as the best weeks will get the most points and have even better trade value if they are used for that. Add in the ability to know and control what you get for what you give, the "change back" from points vs the absolute one for one nature of week for week trades, the ease of trade (and guaranteed deposit) of weeks from the converted owners at all resorts vs the on and off, unpredictable nature of the single resort weeks system while eliminating the frustrations and extra costs of having II in the middle of things vs Marriott having virtually complete control and the value of a $2500 cost to join looks good. That's why these programs seem to sell themselves and why it is so surprising Marriott waited so long to take advantage of the opportunity.


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## timeos2

*Gold wasn't promised a Platinum garden*



DanCali said:


> The scenario above where Gold 2BR Carribean weeks cannot get a 2BR  in Hawaii is all but certain in a points system - will those owners welcome the changes?



Any ability to finagle the system(s) to regularly obtain upgrades is a fluke, certainly not guaranteed and (usually) known only to the enlightened few. If it becomes well known - see the South Africa experience of a few years ago - steps are taken to correct it. If it is a small scale thing it might survive for awhile but will eventually be cut off (see the RCI adjustment of values this past year as a prime example).  The systems aren't meant to supply upgrades or create value where there is none (the seasonal problem) but to facilitate like for like at best or downgrades whenever possible (which II excels at) if they are to survive. 

The few in the knows that get impacted by the inability to trade gold for better aren't going impact Marriott or anyone else if they are suddenly cut off from a formerly sweet deal. It was never intended to be there in the first place. There will be new "deals" discovered in the new system to replace it but the owners who benefit, at least until THAT changes, may have different names. Thats the way it works.


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## jarta

m61376,   ...   "I think the problem with Harborside and St. John owners securing internal Starwood reservations for similar accommodations is that despite the high MF's their point allocations are less than newer resorts"

Over a year ago, Starwood changed the point allocation at St. John (Harborside was always in line) so that *in the same season* 3-brs could trade into 3-brs, 2-brs could trade into 2-brs and 1-brs (larger and smaller) could trade into 1-brs at any of the most "expensive" resorts using a Starwood internal trade.  

That "problem" no longer exists for St. John owners and never existed for Harborside owners.

But, this is a Marriott, not a Starwood, thread.  The point of this thread is: what would happen if Marriott changes a system that most people like - apparently a lot.    ...   eom


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## ocdb8r

timeos2 said:


> Any ability to finagle the system(s) to regularly obtain upgrades is a fluke, certainly not guaranteed and (usually) known only to the enlightened few. If it becomes well known - see the South Africa experience of a few years ago - steps are taken to correct it. If it is a small scale thing it might survive for awhile but will eventually be cut off (see the RCI adjustment of values this past year as a prime example).  The systems aren't meant to supply upgrades or create value where there is none (the seasonal problem) but to facilitate like for like at best or downgrades whenever possible (which II excels at) if they are to survive.
> 
> The few in the knows that get impacted by the inability to trade gold for better aren't going impact Marriott or anyone else if they are suddenly cut off from a formerly sweet deal. It was never intended to be there in the first place. There will be new "deals" discovered in the new system to replace it but the owners who benefit, at least until THAT changes, may have different names. Thats the way it works.



In many cases Gold WAS in fact promised a Platinum garden...the Marriott sales staff has always been very liberal with promises of the ability to trade your week up to other seasons and into other resorts.


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## ocdb8r

*Bigger Picture*

I think some people are ignoring the bigger picture.  Any trading system is nothing more than a big math game.  There is a set supply and a set demand and the goal is to match those as efficiently as possible.

I am curious about the concerns of those that are worried about the new system.  If the internal system is structured in a way that reduces the ability for Gold or lower weeks to get platinum weeks, where is the excess inventory created going to go?  If an internal system creates a "tighter" economic model, there will be extra weeks that have to go somewhere.

While Platinum owners might end up in the drivers seat, able to expand their platinum week into 2, this still won't reduce the supply compared to now.  Platinum owners already enjoy the ability to lockoff and turn their week into two AND many also end up with an AC to boot.

I think those of us who don't need to make a reservation for an EXACT week and continue to roll the dice in II maybe be pleasantly surprised at availability.


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## timeos2

*Talk is cheap but you might pay for it. Still doesn't count if not in writing*



ocdb8r said:


> In many cases Gold WAS in fact promised a Platinum garden...the Marriott sales staff has always been very liberal with promises of the ability to trade your week up to other seasons and into other resorts.



And that was put in writing where? Verbal promises are meaningless in all of real estate including the only somewhat related world of timeshares. The only thing you were actually given is whatever is in the written documents. Anything that isn't in there, even if it has been available in the past, is not a right or guaranteed to continue.  The written documents are the only basis for ownership and use rights. No exceptions. The sales weasels can say virtually anything they want as in the end it is wiped out and replaced with only what you sign.  Nothing more (or less).


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## DanCali

jarta said:


> I have not found that statment to be accurate.  They certainly can easily make those trades (as always, subject to availability and having the Staroptions to spend) using Starwood's internal trading system.
> 
> St. John is historically the hardest Starwood resort to trade into using either Starwood's internal or II's external trading systems.  Harborside is second....



Jim - you missed my point. I wasn't talking about getting into Harborside and St. John. I was referring to Harborside and St. John 2BR Gold owners (summer weeks) who cannot exchange to Maui or Princeveille in a 2BR anytime of the year because they only have enough points for a 1BR... 

(As you point out, many of them only use and rent as a result, which in turn makes exchanges to those locations hard - that's a byproduct of the point above)

Clearly the Carribean June-August weeks are in great demand and I'm pretty sure those Marriott owners who own Aruba, St. Thomas, St. Kitts summer weeks can exchange to similar unts in Hawaii (also Platinum 1-52 at Marriott) via II. They most definitely can if they are flexible in travel times. This ability will likely go away in an internal system if Marriott uses an allocation scheme similar to Starwood.

No matter what allocation scheme is used - if some people now get 10 days instead of 7, there will be people who get 4-5 days instead of 7. This can be problematic in many ways down the road. For example, Carribean owners who were told when they bought that summer weeks are powerful traders may choose to use or rent weeks instead of exchanging, making those locations much harder to get into. Orlando owners who may get valued poorly may just start walking away from MFs obligations and start a death spiral if those resale values drop to Starwood resale values (<$1). We see much of this stuff happening right now at Starwood resorts...


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## ocdb8r

timeos2 said:


> And that was put in writing where? Verbal promises are meaningless in all of real estate including the only somewhat related world of timeshares. The only thing you were actually given is whatever is in the written documents. Anything that isn't in there, even if it has been available in the past, is not a right or guaranteed to continue.  The written documents are the only basis for ownership and use rights. No exceptions. The sales weasels can say virtually anything they want as in the end it is wiped out and replaced with only what you sign.  Nothing more (or less).



My point wasn't a sense of entitlement, but rather to point out that Marriott Sales staff have always relied on the ability to trade up and out as a way of driving sales...especially of lesser desired seasons.

I totally agree...there is no guarantee for trades.


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## m61376

jarta said:


> m61376,   ...   "I think the problem with Harborside and St. John owners securing internal Starwood reservations for similar accommodations is that despite the high MF's their point allocations are less than newer resorts"
> 
> Over a year ago, Starwood changed the point allocation at St. John (Harborside was always in line) so that *in the same season* 3-brs could trade into 3-brs, 2-brs could trade into 2-brs and 1-brs (larger and smaller) could trade into 1-brs at any of the most "expensive" resorts using a Starwood internal trade.
> 
> That "problem" no longer exists for St. John owners and never existed for Harborside owners.
> 
> But, this is a Marriott, not a Starwood, thread.  The point of this thread is: what would happen if Marriott changes a system that most people like - apparently a lot.    ...   eom



Sorry- I was just reiterating a complaint that I had read on the Starwood board. The relevance to this thread is the concern that, going forward, newer resorts will likely be allocated more points (as happened with Starwood with St. John's at least) making once even premium properties unable to trade like for like. While newer properties may cost more to build and Marriott may entice purchases with higher point allocations (as seemingly happened with Starwood), older resort owners are still paying ever increasing MF's and it would be a real issue, again in my opinion, if such inequities arose in the future as Marriott hopefully once again expands.


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## timeos2

*Trade ups may take rental, borrowing or pooling to achieve*



ocdb8r said:


> My point wasn't a sense of entitlement, but rather to point out that Marriott Sales staff have always relied on the ability to trade up and out as a way of driving sales...especially of lesser desired seasons.
> 
> I totally agree...there is no guarantee for trades.



Ahh, got it! Isn't it a shame that a product with such a great underlying value gets sold in such deceptive ways and at such inflated prices?  While the total number of sales would most certainly go down there would be far more satisfied and enthusiastic owners of timeshares if they were sold on the true merits, at a reasonable price and with resale support from all parties involved when needed. There is a real market for them but the majority under the current system get sold to uninformed and often unqualified buyers that commit to far too much purchase price and end up feeding the already overflowing resale market with more drastically low priced offers.  And they aren't espousing the merits of ownership to anyone! 

Add in the truthful but should not be the reason to purchase ability to trade which gets morphed into "don't worry - if you buy here you can go anywhere" lies and, again, we have the disillusioned buyer soon dumping the high priced week(s) for pennies just to get out of a product they cannot get satisfactory value from. 

At least a new internal mini-system from Marriott targets owners or new buyers and holds a promise of improved ability to use their high priced ownership in a better way. Anything that simplifies exchange and makes the value of what you own and what you want clear is a plus IMO.  If it also offers the typical options for upgrades - rentals, pooling, borrowing of points - then the system meets a need for many otherwise bewildered owners. Again priced right it can be a way that otherwise frustrated buyers are able to get useful trades more easily than week for week through II or RCI could ever be.   Having owned weeks and points and knowing the pluses and minuses of both for use at multiple resorts (vs a week at my own) points wins hands down every time.  It is simply a far better way to get fair value out of the systems.  Hopefully the Marriott program will do the same.


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## DanCali

ocdb8r said:


> I am curious about the concerns of those that are worried about the new system.  If the internal system is structured in a way that reduces the ability for Gold or lower weeks to get platinum weeks, where is the excess inventory created going to go?  If an internal system creates a "tighter" economic model, there will be extra weeks that have to go somewhere.



There is no excess inventory. Nobody said all resorts have to have the same total points. Here is a simple illustrative example:

Say the system has just two resorts: Maui and Aruba. For simplicity, they are all 2R units - no lockoffs. Resorts are the same size. Maui is 1-52 Platinum and Aruba is 51-21 Platinum and 22-50 Gold (I know the weeks are not necessarity accurate and I'm ignoring Platinum Plus). Before any change it was possible for all Aruba Owners to go to Maui if all Maui owners wanted to go to Aruba. 1 week for 1 week.

Now say Platinum gets 200 points and Gold 100 points. The total points given in the system is equal to the points available for trading. there is no excess inventory.... However, Aruba Gold owners now get 5 days in Hawaii while Hawaii owners can go for 10 days to Aruba in Gold season. While Aruba Gold is now relatively more attractive for Hawaii owners, if some people get 10 day trades (for each two Aruba Gold owners who go to Hawaii) not all Hawaii owners can trade there because the weeks will get exhausted. They will have to go to their home resort or trade Aruba Platinum. Also, if Aruba Gold owners dislike their new trading opportunities, they will rent or use their home weeks, in which case nobody trades to Aruba Gold.

In any case, since the total "inventory" in the system is determined by the points available to trade, there is no excess inventory. Excess or lack of inventory may happen if you give an owner in a Gold week 100 points to trade with but say it takes 200 points to trade into his week (or vice versa).


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## m61376

ocdb8r said:


> My point wasn't a sense of entitlement, but rather to point out that Marriott Sales staff have always relied on the ability to trade up and out as a way of driving sales...especially of lesser desired seasons.
> 
> I totally agree...there is no guarantee for trades.



This may become a huge issue if Marriott doesn't include a way for lesser season owners who bought because they could take advantage of their travel flexibility (utilizing Flexchange) to continue to maximize their ownership in a similar fashion. It is imperative that these owners still get benefit from their ownership, or we will be in the same mess as Starwood, with owner's walking away and defaulting on their MF's.

The other issue, which is related, is that many weeks were sold with the pitch that there were some great Silver weeks, for example (esp. at Ocean Point) which were as good as higher season weeks elsewhere. Now these owners will all face the average value of their season, and many are likely to be very disappointed with their new value. 

Marriott may never have made written promises, but many, many people bought in because of the carrot that was dangled and because they believed their salesperson. Disgruntled owners are bad for Marriott, and they are also bad for every owner. Unpaid MF's are everyone's headache.


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## DanCali

m61376 said:


> Marriott may never have made written promises, but many, many people bought in because of the carrot that was dangled and because they believed their salesperson. Disgruntled owners are bad for Marriott, and they are also bad for every owner. Unpaid MF's are everyone's headache.



Exactly my point. A new points system will create people who are better off (likely Platinum is most resorts?) and worse off (likely all owners who do not own Platinum season, and even Platinum season in places like Orlando and possibly Vegas?).

Even if one is better off initially, the fact that so many owners will be worse off than they are now with their trading options should concern us all...


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## m61376

timeos2 said:


> At least a new internal mini-system from Marriott targets owners or new buyers and holds a promise of improved ability to use their high priced ownership in a better way. Anything that simplifies exchange and makes the value of what you own and what you want clear is a plus IMO.  If it also offers the typical options for upgrades - rentals, pooling, borrowing of points - then the system meets a need for many otherwise bewildered owners. Again priced right it can be a way that otherwise frustrated buyers are able to get useful trades more easily than week for week through II or RCI could ever be.   Having owned weeks and points and knowing the pluses and minuses of both for use at multiple resorts (vs a week at my own) points wins hands down every time.  It is simply a far better way to get fair value out of the systems.  Hopefully the Marriott program will do the same.



I agree that there can be many benefits to a points system, but I also feel Marriott is entering into dangerous territory superimposing one on a system that people have already bought into. Anytime there are winners and losers can create a bad situation where everyone loses (as in defaults, increased MF's, etc.).

Personally, two things that I really hope Marriott incorporates IF it actually does introduce a new system are the ability to reserve rooms not only for different periods and sizes, but for different view categories. Just as I would expect my OS view to be worth more points than a GV at the same property, it would be nice to pay a small point premium to reserve an OV week in Hawaii (or save points and reserve a GV room), for example. It would, in effect, make reserving rooms a type of currency cost and would give owners maximum flexibility.

The other thing on my wish list would not only being able to borrow or carry over points from one year to the next, but to be able to buy a certain number of points per year on as an "as needed" basis. Thus, the lesser season or lesser resort, or even the lesser view owner, may be able to pay an upgrade fee of sorts (the cost of purchasing a temporary allocation of points) so as to have enough to get the desired trade in any given year. This might act to compensate for the inability of one Platinum week, for example, to get similar accommodations at a more premium Platinum property. Of course, I don't know how this would work with balancing supply and demand, but it is an interesting concept at least. I know DVC owners rent points from each other for similar trades; I don't know if DVC offers points for purchase on an annual, one time use basis.


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## ocdb8r

DanCali said:


> There is no excess inventory. Nobody said all resorts have to have the same total points. Here is a simple illustrative example:
> 
> Say the system has just two resorts: Maui and Aruba. For simplicity, they are all 2R units - no lockoffs. Resorts are the same size. Maui is 1-52 Platinum and Aruba is 51-21 Platinum and 22-50 Gold (I know the weeks are not necessarity accurate and I'm ignoring Platinum Plus). Before any change it was possible for all Aruba Owners to go to Maui if all Maui owners wanted to go to Aruba. 1 week for 1 week.
> 
> Now say Platinum gets 200 points and Gold 100 points. The total points given in the system is equal to the points available for trading. there is no excess inventory.... However, Aruba Gold owners now get 5 days in Hawaii while Hawaii owners can go for 10 days to Aruba in Gold season. While Aruba Gold is now relatively more attractive for Hawaii owners, if some people get 10 day trades (for each two Aruba Gold owners who go to Hawaii) not all Hawaii owners can trade there because the weeks will get exhausted. They will have to go to their home resort or trade Aruba Platinum. Also, if Aruba Gold owners dislike their new trading opportunities, they will rent or use their home weeks, in which case nobody trades to Aruba Gold.
> 
> In any case, since the total "inventory" in the system is determined by the points available to trade, there is no excess inventory. Excess or lack of inventory may happen if you give an owner in a Gold week 100 points to trade with but say it takes 200 points to trade into his week (or vice versa).



Agreed...but this fails to consider the experience we currently have with II.  There is in fact excess inventory in the system from unsold weeks, unused weeks, and trades out of the system.  If there is no excess inventory how are some of us able to turn our 2 bedroom lockoff into TWO 2 bedrooms throughout the year in II?  Some owners are even able to stretch that to THREE with the provision of AC's.  

My point was this:  What if a current Platinum owner uses II, splitting a lockoff and receiving an AC.  In return lets say they end up with two 2 bedrooms and one studio for their trades.  In the future, rather than playing II roulette, they opt for the more guaranteed internal Marriott system that gets them a guaranteed(time and place) reservation.  If they go for a Platinum week at another resort they are likely to get a 1-1 trade...if they go for Gold they may be able to stretch their platinum points to 10 or 11 days but I doubt it would be double (I agree that this is all speculation on how the point values would be set up, but I don't see Marriott doing anything drastically different).  Therefore, the Marriott system has resulted in less use...creating MORE excess.

Before everyone tears up my example, I agree, I have used the most extreme scenario to demonstrate my point.  However, I do think that in general with II, Marriott owners trade equal or up.  I don't buy that there are a ton of owners depositing their platinum studios into II in exchange for bronze weeks.  Picture even an average user who take the 1 bedroom at their home resort and deposits the studio into II.  Many receive a 1 bedroom or better in exchange for their studio.  If they choose to use the internal system and are constrained to a more 1-1 basis, there will still be more excess than currently.


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## kjd

*More proof needed*

I'd like to see a little more proof that "the number one complaint of Marriott owners is I.I.".  While one can report on any sort of  a "phantom survey" I have not heard any anecdotal evidence at any of the owners update meetings that indicate I.I. is a problem.  I always make it a point to attend these meetings.

It is doubtful that the sales staff has heard this complaint from many prospective buyers because buyers usually have little or no knowledge of how timeshare exchange systems work.  Where is this information coming from?

First and foremost Marriott is a hospitality management company.  After an early start at owning a restaurant in Washington D.C. and then morphing into an airline catering business, Marriott is now an international hotelier.  While timeshare sales were quoted here to be around 700 million (or whatever) last year, they are not a large segment of Marriott's businesses.  They recently cited a loss of timeshare profits in their quarterly report. 

Timeshare operations do provide profits to Marriott corp on a fully integrated basis.  Everything from the MRP's, VISA credit cards, hotel management, resort association management all drive profits to the bottom line.  It's inconceivable to me that a few timeshare sales staff or executives could significantly influence the direction of Marriott's business plan.  

Marriott makes a nice buck from managing timeshare resorts by charging maintenance fees.  Does anyone really believe these fees will go down?  In this respect I doubt Marriott cares how you acquired your timeshare as long as you pay your annual maintenance fee.  I don't believe that Marriott is out to get anyone.  More likely it's a few disgruntled sales staff or executives who did not make their sales quotas.  

A new exchange system could be in the works.  If it becomes a reality I think it will benefit everyone including Marriott.  Otherwise, they won't do it.  By the way, not everyone who owns DVC is happy.


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## PerryM

*Warning: Math ahead.....*



DanCali said:


> Exactly my point. A new points system will create people who are better off (likely Platinum is most resorts?) and worse off (likely all owners who do not own Platinum season, and even Platinum season in places like Orlando and possibly Vegas?).
> 
> Even if one is better off initially, the fact that so many owners will be worse off than they are now with their trading options should concern us all...



The new resort will hawked as the "Great Equalizer" - where Bronze is just as good as Platinum Plus Holiday - that's why Marriott created this beast.

The salesreps will now have the tool to hawk the doggy weeks that they now are missing.  Bronze, Silver, and Gold weeks pay exactly the same MF as Platinum and are critical to the sales effort.  Here's how the sales pitch will go:

"Can't afford that $55 grand for a Platinum Plus Holiday week?  No problem - simply buy 1 Gold week, deposit them, and borrow points from next year after you wait a year and you can then vacation at the Platinum Plus Holiday level - just sign here.

Any good Points system lets you "Bank" Points forward 1 year and "Borrow" Points from 1 year.  Here's an example:

Platinum Plus Holiday week generates 55,000 Points each year.


1 Gold week generates 20,000 Points each year.
Bank this years 20,000 points for usage next year.
Next year borrow 20,000 points from the year before.

You will have 60,000 Points in your account next year.

You can now reserve a Platinum Plus Holiday week just like the poor schmuck who paid $55,000 and you only paid $20,000.

Am I a great salesrep or what".

Since each owner paid the same FM our Gold member paid 3 times the MF to vacation but that will be lost in sales pitch.

This is why Marriott wants this system so bad...

P.S.

In the above system why on earth would they want my Gold week in that system - they already sold it 15 years ago to someone.  $2,500 sounds too low to allow me access to their Platinum weeks.

P.P.S.
The system will be awash in doggy weeks - all the Platinums will be snapped up and the moaning and groaning about doggy weeks will replace "II sucks".  Marriott will probably force all members into 3-year contracts because of the bank/borrow capability and by the time you realize that you are fighting for Platinum weeks with EVERY owner its too late folks...

Like I said this is a sales tool for Marriott and you mean nothing to them.


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## ocdb8r

PerryM said:


> Any good Points system lets you "Bank" Points forward 1 year and "Borrow" Points from 1 year.



I disagree.  DVC and Worldmark are the only brand name systems that allow this level of flexibility.  All the others have extreme restrictions on banking and borrowing, usually limiting them to last minute reservations (within 30 or 60 days of checkin).  Both were initially sold  with this flexibility specifically in mind so that users who didn't want to vacation at a timeshare every year could buy smaller point packages and bank or borrow to timeshare every 2 or three years.
DVC even retains the right to restrict banking and borrowing in the future...

Perry - you seem convinced Marriott is headed toward a "point package" selling system as opposed to just using point to create internal trading.  I don't believe this is the route they will go.  I see them following more the Starwood/Hyatt/Hilton route where they are still selling actual weeks that just happen to have a corresponding point value.  I don't think the sort of liberal banking and borrowing scheme you describe jives with this setup.


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## PerryM

ocdb8r said:


> I disagree.  DVC and Worldmark are the only brand name systems that allow this level of flexibility.  All the others have extreme restrictions on banking and borrowing, usually limiting them to last minute reservations (within 30 or 60 days of checkin).  Both were initially sold  with this flexibility specifically in mind so that users who didn't want to vacation at a timeshare every year could buy smaller point packages and bank or borrow to timeshare every 2 or three years.
> DVC even retains the right to restrict banking and borrowing in the future...
> 
> Perry - you seem convinced Marriott is headed toward a "point package" selling system as opposed to just using point to create internal trading.  I don't believe this is the route they will go.  I see them following more the Starwood/Hyatt/Hilton route where they are still selling actual weeks that just happen to have a corresponding point value.  I don't think the sort of liberal banking and borrowing scheme you describe jives with this setup.



Well since we are all guessing at this point I consider my guess just as good as anyone else.

Marriott will stop selling weeks and start selling points - sure the actual sale is a week but Points...Points...Points is all they will be hawking - especially if you are a Platinum owner - they need your Platinum week to dangle in front of the Bronze, Silver, and Gold owners.

At least that's what I'd do if I were trying to unload a pile of doggy weeks....


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## DanCali

ocdb8r said:


> Agreed...but this fails to consider the experience we currently have with II.  There is in fact excess inventory in the system from unsold weeks, unused weeks, and trades out of the system.  If there is no excess inventory how are some of us able to turn our 2 bedroom lockoff into TWO 2 bedrooms throughout the year in II?  Some owners are even able to stretch that to THREE with the provision of AC's.
> 
> My point was this:  What if a current Platinum owner uses II, splitting a lockoff and receiving an AC.  In return lets say they end up with two 2 bedrooms and one studio for their trades.  In the future, rather than playing II roulette, they opt for the more guaranteed internal Marriott system that gets them a guaranteed(time and place) reservation.  If they go for a Platinum week at another resort they are likely to get a 1-1 trade...if they go for Gold they may be able to stretch their platinum points to 10 or 11 days but I doubt it would be double (I agree that this is all speculation on how the point values would be set up, but I don't see Marriott doing anything drastically different).  Therefore, the Marriott system has resulted in less use...creating MORE excess.



I think you underestimate the number of people in II who do deposit 2BR units to secure that 1BR in Hawaii in prime season. There are also people who probably request impossible trades and lose their weeks. On top of that there is also lack of trasparency with II inventory due to developer bulk deposits which happen on occasion. 

But speaking of excess inventory and lack of transparency, here is more gossip from the Starwood board.... The way the reservation system works is you can reserve your home resort float period at 12 to 8 months out. Point exchanges happen from 8 months out. Allegedly there is a clause (I haven't seen it) that Starwood can also book units starting from 11 months out based on anticipated hotel point conversions for that year. Yes, it's fair they can book rooms if someone converts to hotel points, but if they do it at 11 months out based on conversions that haven't occured yet what do you think that does to the inventory available for exchanges at 8 months out? Will they reserve low or high demand weeks (and who has the best view into demand)? Possibly the best explanation to why you can't get a July week in Hawaii...



ocdb8r said:


> ...I'm no Starwood apologist, but as I mentioned before, this is not the case.  Despite a very active internal trading system, I am still able to get into Hawaii (both Maui and Kauai) in every month except July.



I'm not sure how Marriott handles hotel point conversions currently but this is just another example how a developer can manipulate a point system in their favor... A new system means new rules and new opportunities for Marriott to introduce these types of hidden ways to benefit it's botton line at owners' expense.


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## billymach4

How to turn a doggy week into a horse's @#$
:deadhorse:


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## ocdb8r

DanCali said:


> I think you underestimate the number of people in II who do deposit 2BR units to secure that 1BR in Hawaii in prime season. There are also people who probably request impossible trades and lose their weeks. On top of that there is also lack of trasparency with II inventory due to developer bulk deposits which happen on occasion.
> 
> But speaking of excess inventory and lack of transparency, here is more gossip from the Starwood board.... The way the reservation system works is you can reserve your home resort float period at 12 to 8 months out. Point exchanges happen from 8 months out. Allegedly there is a clause (I haven't seen it) that Starwood can also book units starting from 11 months out based on anticipated hotel point conversions for that year. Yes, it's fair they can book rooms if someone converts to hotel points, but if they do it at 11 months out based on conversions that haven't occured yet what do you think that does to the inventory available for exchanges at 8 months out? Will they reserve low or high demand weeks (and who has the best view into demand)? Possibly the best explanation to why you can't get a July week in Hawaii...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how Marriott handles hotel point conversions currently but this is just another example how a developer can manipulate a point system in their favor... A new system means new rules and new opportunities for Marriott to introduce these types of hidden ways to benefit it's botton line at owners' expense.



First, I totally agree with your last statement.  The point system will allow Marriott more control of reservation allocation, and they could very well use that to owners detriment.

Second, I should have clarified.  My Starwood trades have all been using II. I wanted to point out that despite Starwood's internal system, I get great trades in II with my Starwood weeks.  If I wanted to use the internal system I could get Hawaii, even in July, and better options at Harborside....I prefer to be flexible and snag the "upgrades" in II.  The only real no go for internal trades is St. John and I think it's just a result of it being a VERY small resort.  Some owners are reporting increases success using the internal system since the new phase opened.

Third, as for you concern about hotel point conversions...this should ALREADY be something Marriott owners have looked at.  You already have hotel point conversions in the Marriott system...how is Marriott currently allowed to reserve a unit for rental once an owner converts to hotel points?  I don't see how a point system for timeshare exchanges affects this (unless they use it as an opportunity to change the rules for hotel point conversions they already have in place....but if they CAN change this setup, couldn't they do that at ANY time?)


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## DanCali

ocdb8r said:


> Second, I should have clarified.  My Starwood trades have all been using II. I wanted to point out that despite Starwood's internal system, I get great trades in II with my Starwood weeks.



But these uprades are not usually trades you get via an ongoing exchange request... To get these upgrades you need to watch II or the sightings board on a daily basis, an impracticality for most people. Also, since you pick up stuff you "see" it is by definition the least desireable invenory left over after ongoing exchange requests (although the bulk banking of dozens of units n the same day helps you get these upgrades). Also, since Starwood selects the weeks it deposits into II and not the owner, it makes it even more likely they are not "prime" weeks. But if those weeks work for you then you are getting the most out of your ownership. A recent Starwood survey suggested that only 4% of owners plan to use II in the coming year, so this is definitely not the main avenue of exchanging in Starwood.

The nice thing about the current Marriott system is the fact that owners pick up prime weeks and deposit them into II virtually guarantess that prime week exchanges are available. In a point system you don't reserve a week in order to exchange it. As hard a summer NCV exchanges are - they will be even less likely in a point system since those  will be booked early by people who want to use them. On the flipside, actual Platinum NCV owners may have an easier time reserving summer weeks, but exchanges will be much harder.



ocdb8r said:


> You already have hotel point conversions in the Marriott system...how is Marriott currently allowed to reserve a unit for rental once an owner converts to hotel points?  I don't see how a point system for timeshare exchanges affects this (unless they use it as an opportunity to change the rules for hotel point conversions they already have in place....but if they CAN change this setup, couldn't they do that at ANY time?)



I didn't buy from Marriott so I don't have the docs to see how this works. But if it is in the docs they can't change it anytime. On the other hand, a new "cCub" system may have new rules for whoever chooses to join.


----------



## ocdb8r

DanCali said:


> But these uprades are not usually trades you get via an ongoing exchange request... To get these upgrades you need to watch II or the sightings board on a daily basis, an impracticality for most people. Also, since you pick up stuff you "see" it is by definition the least desireable invenory left over after ongoing exchange requests (although the bulk banking of dozens of units n the same day helps you get these upgrades). Also, since Starwood selects the weeks it deposits into II and not the owner, it makes it even more likely they are not "prime" weeks. But if those weeks work for you then you are getting the most out of your ownership. A recent Starwood survey suggested that only 4% of owners plan to use II in the coming year, so this is definitely not the main avenue of exchanging in Starwood.



Actually, several of these upgrades ARE from ongoing search requests.  I admittedly have never understood why, but several times I have gotten a 2 bedroom for an ongoing request that only had to give me a 1 bedroom.  Additionally I have often got "upgrades" in the way of season with ongoing requests.  I also do regularly check II so sometimes I snag great trades that way, but it's not 100% via "sightings."

Also, I think the fact that I am still relatively successful with such a low percentage of owners using II further proves that II will continue to be a valid outlet for owners even after Marriott institutes its system.  

I agree that specifics on how it works may change what sort of "prime" weeks make it into II...but I don't see why owners wouldn't be able to continue to reserve prime weeks for deposit into II for either Marriott or external trades.  The Starwood approach is unique...and UGLY...but I accept that Marriott could go that route.


----------



## winger

TheTimeTraveler said:


> ....
> II has worked well for most in the past, is there some specific reasons it wouldn't work well in the future?
> ...



Yes, at least one. As more and more MVCI owners with 'better' weeks (or access to) join the internal system, less and less of these weeks will be deposited into II for exchanges.


----------



## sdtugger

*Maui Example*

I'm wondering how the new system could work (and whether it works well at Starwood and similar systems under similar facts).

Right now, if you want to reserve a popular week in Maui, you'd better be on the phone and computer at exactly 9 a.m. on the day the weeks are released.  Reservations for popular weeks are literally gone within a few minutes of becoming available.  This is essentially true for Pres. day week, most of spring break, virtually the entire summer, thanksgiving, and Christmas/new years (essentially the school holiday weeks and a few other key time periods).

How would/could Marriott make a new trading system work for those popular weeks?  Under the current system, some owners select the popular weeks to reserve and trade meaning that it is possible to trade into Maui on many of these key weeks.  But, there is such a demand for these key weeks, that I seriously wonder if there would be any inventory left at 8 months (for example) even if the former traders are no longer selecting these weeks.  In other words, how likely is it that you'd ever see a Christmas week available at 8 months?  Under the current system, you can see many such weeks.

If the new system doesn't have the most popular weeks to trade, then it will fail.  How will Marriott make this work?


----------



## DanCali

sdtugger said:


> If the new system doesn't have the most popular weeks to trade, then it will fail.  How will Marriott make this work?



Bingo - just what I said 3 posts before you.

They can sell it as an upgrade all they want. The realities of such a system are that (i) about half of the owners will be worse off with their trading opportunities and (ii) exchanges will be harder for everyone since prime weeks will get picked up by owners at their home resorts and not by owners looking for a powerhouse week to trade.

I can't possibly see how this would be a better product. And it's folly to make a change like this after you have 400,000+ owners who bought under different rules. They would create 200,000 unhappy owners ovenight...


----------



## m61376

I don't think you can necessarily say it is a bad thing for owners at their home resort to have more opportunity to actually reserve prime weeks in their season, although admittedly non-owners trying to access those weeks will be disappointed and, as you point out, the likelihood is that very few of those prime weeks will be available at 8 months if they were part of a larger season. Plat. Plus weeks will be available when their owners choose to trade. Resorts with excessively long seasons, like NCV, for example, will likely rarely have a summer week available but owners there will likely be happier, since it will be much easier to actually reserve a summer week for use since they can no longer be monopolized by those seeking to enhance their trading power. As a non-owner I can be miffed that I won't be able to make that reservation, but I can see that it is an enhancement for owners.

The bigger issue is that if Marriott creates a system where half of the people are worse off than they were before I think it will be a nightmare. Even for people less than enthusiastic with II, the devil you know is frequently perceived as better than the unknown. I think Marriott has repeatedly delayed this program because of some of the issues we have speculated about and it may be why at least some of the powers that be aren't sure that it will ever become a reality.


----------



## ocdb8r

DanCali said:


> Bingo - just what I said 3 posts before you.
> 
> They can sell it as an upgrade all they want. The realities of such a system are that (i) about half of the owners will be worse off with their trading opportunities and (ii) exchanges will be harder for everyone since prime weeks will get picked up by owners at their home resorts and not by owners looking for a powerhouse week to trade.
> 
> I can't possibly see how this would be a better product. And it's folly to make a change like this after you have 400,000+ owners who bought under different rules. They would create 200,000 unhappy owners ovenight...



1) (ii) assumes that owners won't want powerhouse weeks to trade in II (either for other Marriott's or outside the Marriott system), which I believe is false.  There will still be owners who want to deposit a tiger trader into II and if there are less owners vying for those weeks in II (because they have opted to use the internal system) we may end up with a BETTER chance at those weeks.

2) Owners able to trade into these prime weeks at their home resort certainly won't be "worse off"...why shouldn't they get priority for trades at their home resort (I know this would be a "change" but just playing devil's advocate).  Getting a prime week also won't be "harder" for owners at their home resort.

3) This is really only a concern at resorts with overly generous Platinum periods.  Only Platinum's are going to have enough points to get Platinum weeks at their home resort.  At resorts where the seasons are accurately reflected, they are already the only ones who can get prime weeks.  If they trade somewhere else, the prime week they were entitled to at their home resort will be made available to SOMEONE to trade into.  Granted, Marriott has been "sloppy" in season assignment at some places so there are some issues here.

4) You have no idea how many Marriott owners trying to trade in II end up with unsatisfactory results because they don't have the time to learn the system like we do to have a high probability of a good trade...so your statement that "half of the owners will be worse off with their trading opportunities" may be false.

Don't get me wrong.  I have been very happy with the excellent trades my Gold Marriott has provided, but I am not convinced that will stop with a new system.  I am also not convinced that the new system will not provide some value, even to me as a Gold owner.  Change sucks...but it is as likely provide additional opportunities as it is to foreclose some.


----------



## DanCali

m61376 said:


> I think Marriott has repeatedly delayed this program because of some of the issues we have speculated about and it may be why at least some of the powers that be aren't sure that it will ever become a reality.



Ok - so who are these "powers that be" you keep referring to???


----------



## m61376

DanCali said:


> Ok - so who are these "powers that be" you keep referring to???



I am not trying to be cagey. The official I spoke with related that he was instructed by his superiors not to discuss the points program because there are issues with it and it may never happen. That's the extent of what I know. Since it clearly contradicts the assumed "given" that the new program will be rolled out mid year I thought it was worth repeating, for what it may or may not be worth.


----------



## ldanna

Fletch said:


> There is nothing worst than telling an owner in Maui that when he trades to Orlando, he gets the same 7 nights when he paid $80,000 and the orlando owner paid $25,000. Now his Maui oceanfront might get him 12 days in Orlando. Makes sense ? You guys need to stop overthinking this and they are trying to help. If you bought resale and own a silver week, just continue to use II and you will be fine.



Some things to consider:

*If I own in Orlando I have to use 2 of my weeks to get one week in Maui or just one of my weeks (the whole 2bd) to get half a week in Maiu (it means 2 MF for 1 week plus air tickets for at least 4 to HI). Not a good deal. BTW, lockoff is not an advantage anymore.

*If I own Maui I can exchange my week for 2 weeks in Orlando. Great deal and I will save on air tickets.

*If an Orlando owner doesn't deposit its 2 week, no weeks for the Maui owner.

*Is there a lot of potential buyers for $80k a week and almost $2k MF/year? If not, is this new system improve this market?

Fletch, you could help me with this answer: what are the top seeling weeks on Marriott today? I think that the weeks around $20k are the ones selling during this economic crises and they will always be. According to this new system, will it be easier to sell those week (you will need two weeks to make a real good one)

BTW, no more ACs with Marriott.


----------



## dougp26364

I agree with Fletch. You guys are WAY overthinking this. We own two points systems and they are not evil systems. They just take a little different way of thinking about how to use them. In one system I have two weeks of ownership and the points for both units are combined. I can mix and match those points to fit my particular needs. I can even save this years points to next year if I want one huge blow-out vacation or, borrow points from next year if I want to pay for that fantastic view rather than settle for the view of the parking lot exchangers often get.

Also consider that with points systems, inventory is often controlled by the developer. While the initial kneejerk reaction to this might be to think it's a bad thing, I can get ocean view or ocean front Hawaii weeks MUCH easier with our points programs than I can with a weeks exchange program. The best inventory is kept for system owners. Interval will have a contract that ensures they get specific resorts and weeks and they base the point trade value for Interval exchanges off of that average. In the meantime outside exchangers don't get first crack at the best Marriott weeks. Marriott owners get first shot and probably will get their chances for 3 to 6 months rather than the current 28 days.

But, this is just all speculation. Speculation using the two systems I already know. While I still take a wait and see stance I am anxious to see what Marriott puts on the table. If I don't like it, I'll just leave things the way they are, keep using my units and makes any exchanges through Interval.


----------



## jimf41

Sales rep at Frenchman's Cove told me during the presentation today that the Points system is definitely coming in June. This contrasts with a Marriott telesales rep a week ago who professed to know nothing about it.

Today's take was interesting. The rep stated that it would be cost ineffective for a resale owner to join. He also stated that there would be different levels within the system. The top level being 6 developer bought platinum weeks. Looking at what I currently own he said I would be in a lower tier. Of course if I bought 2  more plat weeks I would move way up in the system. I only have to the close of business today to fork over $72k to assure my high place in the pecking order.

Any advice? 

Never mind I'm going back to the beach with my grandson and probably won't be back in time to tell him I want the deal anyway. I'll try again next year.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*$72,000 ? -- You're Kidding, Right ?*




jimf41 said:


> Of course if I bought 2  more plat weeks I would move way up in the system. I only have to the close of business today to fork over $72k to assure my high place in the pecking order.
> 
> Any advice?


$72*,*000 ? 

For _timeshares_ ? 

I would have to be plumb out of my helmet to fork over 72 grand for timeshares. 

Shux, around here we think it's nutz to shell out 72 _hundred_ for timeshares. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## Swice

*a new thought*

After my latest interaction with II, maybe I would rather deal with marriott as much as possible!


----------



## PerryM

*YELLING at the top of my lungs guys....*



jimf41 said:


> Sales rep at Frenchman's Cove told me during the presentation today that the Points system is definitely coming in June. This contrasts with a Marriott telesales rep a week ago who professed to know nothing about it.
> 
> Today's take was interesting. The rep stated that it would be cost ineffective for a resale owner to join. He also stated that there would be different levels within the system. The top level being 6 developer bought platinum weeks. Looking at what I currently own he said I would be in a lower tier. Of course if I bought 2  more plat weeks I would move way up in the system. I only have to the close of business today to fork over $72k to assure my high place in the pecking order.
> 
> Any advice?
> 
> Never mind I'm going back to the beach with my grandson and probably won't be back in time to tell him I want the deal anyway. I'll try again next year.



I'm in Maui right now and took our sales tour yesterday - Marriott is so desperate that they are offering 20% cash discounts to anyone who has the cash to buy.  Don't know about financing - didn't ask.

This means that EVERY person who bought the New Towers at Maui Ocean Club got screwed - they paid 20% too much as they never raised the initial "Pre-construction Pricing".

Marriott has no problems screwing existing owners why become one with them?

My advice to everyone is to NOT BUY A TIMESHARE NOW - not resale and not developer.

Prices will drop even more before real estate recovers.

P.S.

Wonder if Marriott has a price matching policy like most retailers - good luck...


----------



## winger

m61376 said:


> ... newer properties may cost more to build and Marriott may entice purchases with higher point allocations (as seemingly happened with Starwood), older resort owners are still paying ever increasing MF's and it would be a real issue, again in my opinion, if such inequities arose in the future as Marriott hopefully once again expands.


Reminds me of how Marriott has handled the recent (Jan 2009) MRP devaluations from the perspective of timeshare owners who purchased direct in hope of possibly trading their timeshare suites for hotel stays in major cities around the world ... 

In your analogy, "newer properties" represents existing or new Marriott hotels.

if we looked far enough down the road, in a few years, alot of us "legacy" owners would turn in our two bedroom timeshare suites and get just enough MRP's for a one night stay in New York (or Paris, or London).


----------



## SueDonJ

Swice said:


> After my latest interaction with II, maybe I would rather deal with marriott as much as possible!



Oh, I know I'd rather deal direct with Marriott than with any outside exchange company.  That's a no-brainer; we only put in for other Marriott resorts with our exchange requests anyway. (Since DVC left II, I mean - we did have an ongoing request in for DVC at the time.) 

But that's about all I'm sure of.  The rest will have to wait until/if Marriott unveils the details of whatever new system might be in the works.

As far as newer resorts costing more points for an exchange, isn't that how every points system works?  DVC does (at least at the WDW resorts,) I don't know about the others.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> I'm in Maui right now and took our sales tour yesterday - Marriott is so desperate that they are offering 20% cash discounts to anyone who has the cash to buy.  Don't know about financing - didn't ask.
> 
> This means that EVERY person who bought the New Towers at Maui Ocean Club got screwed - they paid 20% too much as they never raised the initial "Pre-construction Pricing".
> 
> Marriott has no problems screwing existing owners why become one with them?
> 
> My advice to everyone is to NOT BUY A TIMESHARE NOW - not resale and not developer.
> 
> Prices will drop even more before real estate recovers.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Wonder if Marriott has a price matching policy like most retailers - good luck...



Perry, this isn't anything new with MVCI, although it is more apt to happen in a depressed economy.  If you buy direct before a resort is fully developed, your ownership documents clearly outline the risks of the resort not being completed as planned and the pricing structures not being implemented as scheduled.

It appears that Crystal Shores is being impacted by those risks to a far greater extent than any other MVCI resort which was in the development phase when the economy tanked last year.  But there are a few others, like Maui, that are suffering somewhat due to Marriott's announcements last fall that all new/further development would be suspended, and a new "discount" pricing structure would be offered on existing developer inventory.


----------



## PerryM

*Watch that evil eye folks...*

Every been to Vegas and get the "Evil Eye" from the pit boss?

Walk into any casino and they welcome you with open arms - reaching for your wallet when you aren't looking.  This is what Marriott is going to be offering their owners.

They don't want folks like me who play Black Jack according to the rules and counts cards in their head.  I can see it after I raise my bet when the card count is in my favor and lower it when it favors the house.  I do this a few times and the pit boss somehow wonders over to my location and just stares at me (Ok; maybe its just in my mind)

Marriott is the casino in their new exchange scheme and will not tolerate those players who work the system to their advantage - folks who buy resale.

Can't wait until the evil eye to find me.  The house always wins...


----------



## DanCali

jimf41 said:


> Sales rep at Frenchman's Cove told me during the presentation today that the Points system is definitely coming in June. This contrasts with a Marriott telesales rep a week ago who professed to know nothing about it.
> 
> Today's take was interesting. The rep stated that it would be cost ineffective for a resale owner to join. He also stated that there would be different levels within the system. The top level being 6 developer bought platinum weeks. Looking at what I currently own he said I would be in a lower tier. Of course if I bought 2  more plat weeks I would move way up in the system. I only have to the close of business today to fork over $72k to assure my high place in the pecking order.
> 
> Any advice?



Did you get a chance to ask him if buying a Gold week would still get you 7 days in Hawaii after the "imminent" launch in June? 

If they are really going the "Elite" owner route this sounds a lot like Starwood - they have 3*, 4* and 5* "Elite Owners". A quick visit to the Starwood board will reveal some on TUG believe that Starwood is about to fall off a precipice...

Maybe Marriott will come up with a retro program too. For those unfamiliar with the Starwood "retro/requal" - basically you buy a developer unit and as part of the purchase they requalify a resale purchase as if it was purchased from the developer - so it gets full "club" privileges and can also convert to hotel points. In other words - they remove the dreaded "R" flag in the computer... It's subject to minimum purchase amounts etc, but that's the gist of it.

Please note that my previous paragraph is NOT based on anything I know or heard, and may be very unlikely. This is not an intent to spread a new rumor... 

Given the stagnant retail sales market and Marriott's need to generate retail sales (although they can rest on their laurels with the maintenance fees on the 50 resorts), such a "retro" program could accomplish that. It would be geared towards current owners who presumably like the product and it entices them to pay more for a retail purchase even if they know about the resale market. Think if it - "buy three developer units, requalify your three retail purchases so they are not "retail status" and get Platinum status, including for hotel visits, for life and a bunch of other perks like room/view upgrades, no lockoff fees, no hotel points conversion fees, early checkin, late checkout etc". Any buyers? Of course, if someone doesn't own a resale unit there is no need to disclose the "retro" program in a sales presentation - maybe they get lucky and someone buys 6 retail weeks... but if the prospect discloses they have a resale week already, now it's easier to make a sale.

If such a program were to launch (and clearly any salesperson would deny it since it eliminates the incentive to buy today), there is certainly no reason to buy developer now. Wait and see what happens...


Added: Now that i think of it, it's also possible this salesperson read my earlier post #42 and made up the "Elite Owner" rumor  - it's one we haven't heard yeat until I brought it up a few days ago!


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> Perry, this isn't anything new with MVCI, although it is more apt to happen in a depressed economy.  If you buy direct before a resort is fully developed, your ownership documents clearly outline the risks of the resort not being completed as planned and the pricing structures not being implemented as scheduled.
> 
> It appears that Crystal Shores is being impacted by those risks to a far greater extent than any other MVCI resort which was in the development phase when the economy tanked last year.  But there are a few others, like Maui, that are suffering somewhat due to Marriott's announcements last fall that all new/further development would be suspended, and a new "discount" pricing structure would be offered on existing developer inventory.



Timeshares, like Destination Clubs, fail in a declining real estate market - they were created to flourish in raising real estate markets and fall apart in declining markets.

At some point real estate will recover - have no idea when that will happen and timeshare ownership might be favorable to renting again.

However, it will take a lot for folks to get "Pocket Change" that they don't mind blowing on real estate schemes again.

In the mean time, renting now is far superior to owning - someday that will change.

P.S.

And for goodness sakes don't buy Marriott while all this turmoil roils the resale market - will the new exchange scheme screw resale owners?  Marriott has made it clear that resales are to be adversely impacted by their new scheme - heed their advice.


----------



## ldanna

AwayWeGo said:


> $72*,*000 ?
> 
> For _timeshares_ ?
> 
> I would have to be plumb out of my helmet to fork over 72 grand for timeshares.
> 
> Shux, around here we think it's nutz to shell out 72 _hundred_ for timeshares.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Alan, you haven't been around very often, but inflation got us Marriott owners. That's in fact just an upgrade he will have to pay to join the new system. 

Let me try to make the Marriott people (employees) that follow this list to understand basics: the whole world changed AND it won't be same again. I don't know if it changed for good, but it changed.

Let me give you an example: about 3 years ago it was really cool to drive a Hummer and lots of people could affort one. Then we have the "4 dollar a gallon gas" where just a few people could affort to drive a Hummer. After 10/08 the gallon of gas come to about 1.5 dollar and everybody could affort a Hummer again BUT the way people think was changed forever. 3 years ago just a few people cared about fuel efficient cars, and nowadays just a few people don't. Alternatives where created or are more important like hybrid cars, flexfuel engenies, etc.

Same think for a TS, before 10/08 you could think about buying a week for $50K or more. Today, it doesn't matter if you can affort it or not, the whole ideia is insane, and it will be years from now. And if the companies don't change the way the price their investments and their final product they will end up like Hummer, they will be history.

BTW Alan, it's not possible to buy used toothbrushes at eBay anymore, new rules.:hysterical:


----------



## Powerguy

jimf41 said:


> Sales rep at Frenchman's Cove told me during the presentation today that the Points system is definitely coming in June. This contrasts with a Marriott telesales rep a week ago who professed to know nothing about it.
> 
> Today's take was interesting. The rep stated that it would be cost ineffective for a resale owner to join. He also stated that there would be different levels within the system. The top level being 6 developer bought platinum weeks. Looking at what I currently own he said I would be in a lower tier. Of course if I bought 2  more plat weeks I would move way up in the system. I only have to the close of business today to fork over $72k to assure my high place in the pecking order.
> 
> Any advice?
> 
> Never mind I'm going back to the beach with my grandson and probably won't be back in time to tell him I want the deal anyway. I'll try again next year.




I took the time last night to read through my timeshare documents. Nowhere in any of the documents is there a differentiation between a direct Marriott purchase buyer and a resale buyer. 

The only differentiation in ownership is that owners of multiple weeks can reserve their consecutive or multiple concurrent weeks 13 months in advance. 

All of the units are initially purchased from Marriott directly and therefore have the same deeded and contractual rights, privileges and benefits. 

If Marriott, through its actions to create "classes" of owners that in any way inhibits an owners ability to reserve their timeshare season weeks there will be hell to pay. I can predict the National Timeshare Owners Association filing a suit against Marriott.


----------



## melroseman

I bought a DLP TV 3 years ago for $3,000 and today I can buy a far better one of 1/3 of the price.  My first color TV was $300 in 1970 dollars; no remote, tiny screen.  I bought a Garmin for $250 2 years ago and now it sells for $99.

Not every reduction in price is a deliberate and calculated move to screw the consumer.  Sometimes the companies just want to stay in business and they do what they need to do.  Chill out a little, people....


----------



## Stefa

Powerguy said:


> If Marriott, through its actions to create "classes" of owners that in any way inhibits an owners ability to reserve their timeshare season weeks there will be hell to pay. I can predict the National Timeshare Owners Association filing a suit against Marriott.



I don't believe Marriott would attempt this.  They could, however, make rules within their internal exchange program that favor certain "classes" of owners.   This would be an inducement for some owners to purchase more weeks.  Starwood, for example, has several levels of "elite" status that are linked to developer purchases and have varying benefits.  Interestingly, Starwood has rolled back many of the extra benefits (such as upgrades)  and that has somewhat diluted the value of elite status.


----------



## PerryM

*The caste is set...*



Stefa said:


> *I don't believe Marriott would attempt this*.  They could, however, make rules within their internal exchange program that favor certain "classes" of owners.   This would be an inducement for some owners to purchase more weeks.  Starwood, for example, has several levels of "elite" status that are linked to developer purchases and have varying benefits.  Interestingly, Starwood has rolled back many of the extra benefits (such as upgrades)  and that has somewhat diluted the value of elite status.



*But this is the ONLY reason Marriott has cooked up this sales scheme - kill the resale market.*

Haven't we heard this from dozens of folks on their sales tour - it sure happened on my tour.  Marriott is hell bent on pitting owner against owner with a caste system.  Owners, at the same sold out resort, can no longer exchange usage among themselves.

Marriott managers have spent too much time in first-class on the airlines and look down at us common folks in the back with our yaks.


----------



## timeos2

*A few golden oldies make interesting reading in retrospect*

A quick review of the "facts" regarding the internal Marriott System and the devolution of the beloved ROFR from 2008 might be in order as it appears the prognostications were a slight bit off:  



PerryM said:


> *But this is the ONLY reason Marriott has cooked up this sales scheme - kill the resale market.*
> 
> Haven't we heard this from dozens of folks on their sales tour - it sure happened on my tour.  Marriott is hell bent on pitting owner against owner with a caste system.  Owners, at the same sold out resort, can no longer exchange usage among themselves.
> 
> Marriott managers have spent too much time in first-class on the airlines and look down at us common folks in the back with our yaks.



but in 2008 



PerryM said:


> There is NO WAY that Marriott will screw around with changing the 12/13 month reservation window within Marriott.  None, zip, zilch; Marriott sale or resale.
> 
> The ill will that this would stir up would result in many class action lawsuits and bad press.  Why would Marriott want to do such a thing?  They would not.
> 
> Marriott may indeed release an internal, owner only, exchange system – expect it to look exactly like II.  If that’s the case then why spend millions doing what 1 simple phone call to II could do in 5 minutes?
> 
> I understand that other developers have internal exchange systems but I doubt that Marriott has lost ONE sale to them over this subject.  I’ve never heard of someone dumping Marriott in favor of Westin because they knew the difference and felt Westin had the better solution.  Maybe there is someone but I’ve never heard of it and I’ve sat thru many Starwood sales tours and this was never brought up.
> 
> Again, I’m not losing a second of sleep over any of these topics – I have faith in Marriott as a sales/marketing organization who knows that screwing around with a good thing is just stupid.





PerryM said:


> Not to worry – Marriott is NOT the airline industry where punishing their customers is #1 on the list of things to do.
> 
> This whole topic of Punishing Marriott Owners is a hoot to read – you’ve got Marriott salesreps cooking up stories all the time and laughing with bellyaching pain on how somefolks here actually believe their dribble.
> 
> Then you’ve got folks extrapolating these crazy ideas and I’m laughing so hard my side aches too.
> 
> This is all rubbish and is a great substitute for nothing on TV this time of year.
> 
> If folks want to believe the salesreps and play what-if games then who are we to stand in their way - it's great fun.  Ooooppppsss I just fell off my chair





PerryM said:


> THE smartest and most knowledgeable timeshare salesrep I’ve met in 10 years of timeshare ownership works at Marriott’s Timber Lodge – I met him 4th of July week this year.  He too hears the rumors and believes them.
> 
> Many believe UFOs are for real too – these are level headed folks who have no desire to kill all humans and take over our planet.  What can I say – many good folks believe in all kinds of stuff.
> 
> If anything these rumors should spur smart timeshare folks into buying resale versus from Marriott.  I normally recommend that folks buy Marriott – unless they are wonks like us.  However, if you believe in the Marriott salesreps then you should be buying Marriott resales like crazy.  Marriott sounds like they are not exercising the ROFR on some villas, because of the real estate market, and folks panic all the time so this is a great time to buy resale.
> 
> Marriott will incorporate ALL owners on the day they should release their internal exchange system - I've already put my money where my mouth is in a $25 bet to a charity in Tug's name on this issue.
> 
> Thank the Marriott salesreps who believe in this dribble – buy buy buy resale.
> 
> Me, I’m protected – I wear my aluminum helmet most of the day and am protected from UFOs and timeshare salesreps.  No one seems to bother me when I slap that puppy on....
> 
> P.S.
> Can we put a moratorium on "Marriott's Internal Exchange System" - all this does is spread rumors and panic folks who don't have the knowledge we have?  If and when Marriott does introduce such a scheme is the day to form new strategies.
> 
> We seem to be doing the work of the timeshares salesreps - spread panic and a reason to buy from Marriott versus resale.



And then the infamous "ask more when you can't sell" theory:  



PerryM said:


> Supply and demand I know – it’s all in the minds of the buyers and sellers.
> 
> If anything Marriott should send a simple eMail to ALL Marriott owners explaining the ROFR – and suggest that selling their Marriott for peanuts will result in the buyer shoved aside and Marriott takes over – if Marriott wants that week.
> 
> They should also suggest that selling their Marriott for 60% of the current Marriott price will result in more money in the owner’s pocket.
> 
> But Marriott won’t do such a thing since there are foolish Marriott owners hell bent on holding their own firesale.
> 
> This is an education problem and NOT a supply and demand problem since there really isn’t a free market here with the ROFR – that’s what the ROFR papers I’ve read here seem to keep pointing out – I believe them.
> 
> So hopefully any Marriott owner stumbling upon this thread should be asking for 60% of current Marriott sales prices – why allow Marriott to buy your unit for less than 60%?
> 
> The more Marriott owners know these facts the higher resale prices – this helps ALL Marriott owners.  The buyer is never going to get that firesale price anyway.  (Unless Marriott sees the week as a dog and doesn’t want it – the bottom-feeders are welcome to those weeks – they pay the same MF as the Platinum Plus owners.  Woo Hoo)
> 
> 
> The ROFR benefits Marriott owners FIRST and the developer SECOND and the bottom-feeders LAST.
> 
> P.S.
> This issue is so clear to me that I can't believe other Marriott owners would oppose the ROFR.
> 
> *If every Marriott owner asked for 60% of current Marriott sales the ROFR would NOT be an issue.*
> 
> The ROFR is aimed squarely at the week-kneed Marriott owner hell bent on selling their unit for less than 60% - simply up your asking price and the ROFR will work for you and enrich your family's well being.
> 
> But if you're in a financial bind and need a few bucks go ahead and sell it for less than 60% and you will have your sale.  Marriott will make a profit and the bottom-feeder is left to swim for another firesale.
> 
> Who can ask for more than that?
> 
> (Well we bottom-feeders of course)  Why are we so concerned with them - screw them.
> 
> P.P.S.
> From reading a dozen ROFR papers from academia *I think they are doing studies on a different ROFR than what we Marriott owners enjoy*.  In the scholarly papers I never see them describing a well know ROFR sale price that is known to ALL parties, if they had the foresight to do a little research.  They seem to concentrate on an unknown price level that is known ONLY to the 3rd party.
> 
> For this reason I'm ignoring all those papers - until I can find one where the ROFR "trip wire" price is known to all 3 parties.  Any reseller worth their salt knows of the Marriott 60% level and it's been documented on TUG a thousand times.
> 
> Let's not mix apples and oranges in this analysis.



I pick on poor Perry but it shows that assumptions can go terribly wrong when the environment changes.  NEVER assume things will stay as they are and always plan for the worst case to protect yourself. Those who turned out to be the foolish were the ones that fell for the "must match ROFR" nonsense as now they can't begin to hope to recover anything near to what they paid. 

Those who bought thinking that the II priority would always mean easy upgrades will most likely be badly burned soon. Those that bought thinking fees would remain at startup levels got a rude surprise. Those that paid as little as possible, bought what they wanted to use and still feel the annual fees are reasonable are sitting pretty as none of this makes a bit of difference to them except those pesky fees that every timeshare owner has to live with. 

Follow the "buy resale where you want to go, don't depend on trade" rules and you too will most likely be a very happy timeshare owner. Buy to profit, only to trade, to game the system for "free upgrades" and eventually it will bite you. Look no further than Marriott & Starwood today and DVC as the remaining years of RTU dwindle (and the price tanks) to see how paying too much or believing things never change is a losing choice.


----------



## dougp26364

I think every points based reservation system has some sort of elite program that gives you a few more benefits for owning more units bought through the developer. I know that both Diamond Resorts and HGVC have this set up. With Diamond resorts, resale buyers can't even participate in their points based reservation system without either buying additonal points directly thorugh the developer or paying a joiner fee which, last I knew was $2,995.

It's not viewed as a way to pit one owner against another or create a caste system, even if in reality that's what it does. It's created to generate additional sales. They're selling the sizzle of being "elite" and, I believe you'll find it's proven over and over again to work. Look at the airlines as an example. Toss people a few benefits like being able to board first and people will work to become elite flyers. Irrational as is may be, people want to be elite. Elite status can and does sell.

Does this really surprise anyone? How do most timeshare tours go? They tell you about vacations and how important they are to family's. They show you their idea of the cost difference between paying up front (ownership) and paying as you go (renting). If you don't buy what do they use then? They try to make you feel bad about not doing the right thing for your family. Won't it be a lot the same selling elite status? You already own with us, don't you want to be an elite member? All you have to do is buy just one more timeshare and you'll be elite. If you're a resale buyer they'll try to use guilt to get you into their elite program. Don't you want to be like everybody else? You own enough to qualify but you're shut out because you haven't purchased a unit direct from us. Let me show you the wonderful world you and your family will live in if you buy just one week directly from us instead of that miserable world you're in now as a resale buyer. 

Maybe it won't be like this but, after going on more than a couple of persentations, the patterns already set. 

If they offer something and I think it will benefit me, I'll think about it and maybe I'll join. If it doesn't look as if it will benefit me I'll just keep things the way they are and they can keep their elite status. Sure extra perks are nice but not if they cost thousands of dollars to get them.


----------



## PerryM

*Time travel in the timeshare world*



timeos2 said:


> A quick review of the "facts" regarding the internal Marriott System and the devolution of the beloved ROFR from 2008 might be in order as it appears the prognostications were a slight bit off:
> 
> 
> 
> but in 2008
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then the infamous "ask more when you can't sell" theory:
> 
> 
> 
> I pick on poor Perry but it shows that assumptions can go terribly wrong when the environment changes.  NEVER assume things will stay as they are and always plan for the worst case to protect yourself. Those who turned out to be the foolish were the ones that fell for the "must match ROFR" nonsense as now they can't begin to hope to recover anything near to what they paid.
> 
> Those who bought thinking that the II priority would always mean easy upgrades will most likely be badly burned soon. Those that bought thinking fees would remain at startup levels got a rude surprise. Those that paid as little as possible, bought what they wanted to use and still feel the annual fees are reasonable are sitting pretty as none of this makes a bit of difference to them except those pesky fees that every timeshare owner has to live with.
> 
> Follow the "buy resale where you want to go, don't depend on trade" rules and you too will most likely be a very happy timeshare owner. Buy to profit, only to trade, to game the system for "free upgrades" and eventually it will bite you. Look no further than Marriott & Starwood today and DVC as the remaining years of RTU dwindle (and the price tanks) to see how paying too much or believing things never change is a losing choice.



I'm flattered so many who follow my past predictions.

Beyond forecasting the sun will rise tomorrow in the east and set in the west  I make predictions based upon what is currently happening and backing up a time frame (say 2 years) and assume the future (say 2 years) will continue the trend.

The past 2 years have been horrible for timeshares - both buyers and sellers.  I forecast 2 more years of the same.

My recommendation to anyone who cares is to NOT BUY A TIMESHARE NOW!

I also recommend that NOT SELL A TIMESHARE NOW!

Just do the best with what you have but don't change.

If someone has a better method of predicting the future I'm all ears.  

Marriott has amply demonstrated that MOC owners who bought in the new towers out here ALL got screwed.  You can buy the same exact timeshare right now for 20% less and a boat full of MRPs that are eye popping.  (Latest tower only)

If anyone has some great real estate news signaling the bottom of this abyss I'd like to read about it.  I only hear rosy scenarios from folks trying to sell real estate be it homes, condos, or timeshares.

So take my advice for exactly what you paid for it.

P.S.

Forecasting the new Point Reservation System is easy too - the salesreps keep telling us exactly what Marriott will do - kill the resale market for Marriotts.  Isn't that what they keep warning us about?


----------



## PerryM

*Tidy Bowl management*



dougp26364 said:


> I think every points based reservation system has some sort of elite program that gives you a few more benefits for owning more units bought through the developer. I know that both Diamond Resorts and HGVC have this set up. With Diamond resorts, resale buyers can't even participate in their points based reservation system without either buying additonal points directly thorugh the developer or paying a joiner fee which, last I knew was $2,995.
> 
> It's not viewed as a way to pit one owner against another or create a caste system, even if in reality that's what it does. It's created to generate additional sales. They're selling the sizzle of being "elite" and, I believe you'll find it's proven over and over again to work. Look at the airlines as an example. Toss people a few benefits like being able to board first and people will work to become elite flyers. Irrational as is may be, people want to be elite. Elite status can and does sell.
> 
> Does this really surprise anyone? How do most timeshare tours go? They tell you about vacations and how important they are to family's. They show you their idea of the cost difference between paying up front (ownership) and paying as you go (renting). If you don't buy what do they use then? They try to make you feel bad about not doing the right thing for your family. Won't it be a lot the same selling elite status? You already own with us, don't you want to be an elite member? All you have to do is buy just one more timeshare and you'll be elite. If you're a resale buyer they'll try to use guilt to get you into their elite program. Don't you want to be like everybody else? You own enough to qualify but you're shut out because you haven't purchased a unit direct from us. Let me show you the wonderful world you and your family will live in if you buy just one week directly from us instead of that miserable world you're in now as a resale buyer.
> 
> Maybe it won't be like this but, after going on more than a couple of persentations, the patterns already set.
> 
> If they offer something and I think it will benefit me, I'll think about it and maybe I'll join. If it doesn't look as if it will benefit me I'll just keep things the way they are and they can keep their elite status. Sure extra perks are nice but not if they cost thousands of dollars to get them.



This all makes sense for something you purchase - that's not what Marriott will do!

At my Summit Watch Marriott cleans the toilets and we owners get to exchange usage among ourselves via II.  I exchanged my Gold week for a Platinum Holiday week there 3 years ago.

Marriott now want's to stop this and put up a barrier which prevents owners from exchanging usage like we have for 20 years now.  Marriott has nothing to do with this - I make a reservation with MY unit through Marriott then exit the Marriott system and enter II's system to conduct business.

Who gave them the authority to do this?  Certainly not the owners at Summit Watch who pay Marriott to clean the toilets.

This is a HUGE deal and the result will be less usage of our real estate by a company who decided they need more profits than just Tidy Bowl cleaning.


----------



## GregT

I think it is in poor taste to pull quotes from the past to try and discredit current comments.

We are all trying to read tea-leaves together and I don't want to discourage anyone from posting their views, if they fear those comments will be presented in a different view in the future.  

There's a term for intimidation of alternative points of view????

I welcome any contributor --- even those that are highly opinionated (and intelligent).


----------



## PerryM

*Watch my lips move...*



GregT said:


> I think it is in poor taste to pull quotes from the past to try and discredit current comments.
> 
> We are all trying to read tea-leaves together and I don't want to discourage anyone from posting their views, if they fear those comments will be presented in a different view in the future.
> 
> There's a term for intimidation of alternative points of view????
> 
> I welcome any contributor --- even those that are highly opinionated (and intelligent).




Here here!

It's been my experience that when this debating tactic is used its a sign that the debate is over and one side can't come up with anything but stale quotes from long ago taken out of context.

Kind of like one of those 007 movies where snippets of words are pasted together to say just about anything you can imagine.  This is not debate but a poor form of ventriloquism.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> Here here!
> 
> It's been my experience that when this debating tactic is used its a sign that the debate is over and one side can't come up with anything but stale quotes from long ago taken out of context.
> 
> Kind of like one of those 007 movies where snippets of words are pasted together to say just about anything you can imagine.  This is not debate but a poor form of ventriloquism.



I don't think posting old quotes is exactly a sign of a white flag flying, Perry, but I do agree that it may not prove any points in a current discussion.  Like you say, the market is changing all the time and we adapt to it, that's all.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> ... Marriott cleans the toilets ...



I think you way oversimplify the privileges and constraints that every MVCI owner enjoys and suffers by virtue of the management contract held between Marriott and every MVCI resort.  If you truly believe that in a sold-out resort Marriott's only position is that of a janitorial service, that's a sign of you not understanding what you've purchased.  Browse a copy of your resort's governing docs, including the management contract, Perry.  I think you might be unhappily surprised.


----------



## PerryM

*The party of the first part.....*



SueDonJ said:


> I think you way oversimplify the privileges and constraints that every MVCI owner enjoys and suffers by virtue of the management contract held between Marriott and every MVCI resort.  If you truly believe that in a sold-out resort Marriott's only position is that of a janitorial service, that's a sign of you not understanding what you've purchased.  Browse a copy of your resort's governing docs, including the management contract, Perry.  I think you might be unhappily surprised.



I'm not a lawyer and don't pretend to be one so I can't comment on the owners kicking Marriott out.

But if the resale price of a unit drops to 5 cents on the dollar (compared to current Marriott sales) why not kick Marriott out and the owners decide on which exchange company does them the most good?  There are plenty of management companies that would die for a former Marriott and they will be cheaper.

Marriott is starting this war we can only look at the damage they will inflict on us by way of resale prices.


----------



## timeos2

*Have consistent, well thought out plans for long term ownership satisfaction*



SueDonJ said:


> I don't think posting old quotes is exactly a sign of a white flag flying, Perry, but I do agree that it may not prove any points in a current discussion - the market is changing all the time and we adapt to it, that's all.



Consistency more than specifics are the hallmark of a good theory. To flatly declare that buying a less costly week "knowing" it will be "easy to upgrade" may not hold up when the environment changes. Buying to use is a philosophy that doesn't depend on many variable outside factors to be successful.  Declaring a open ended "best buy" recommendation can backfire unless the underlying assumptions are clearly stated and remain unchanged.  Saying in general that buying resale will be a better value than retail stands up even as factors around it change. 

We have had too many fads be heralded as great things (the short lived Condo Hotel craze - heard much on THAT one lately?, the Destination Club debacle, the cheap South African trade value fluke and the granddaddy of all, the ROFR "helping" sellers) that collapsed practically overnight, taking a lot of buyer money with them.  Beware the "next great thing" as it often results in an outcome closer to classic pyramid schemes where those in first make money (or get trades) while the majority lose big time.   

We also have the threads where people have timeshares they own and no longer want to pay the fees for. How many of those were purchased without proper study based on "you'll always get you money out", "it's an easy trade to upgrade to 2 bedroom Hawaii" or "the fees are only $50 and it can get the Manhattan Club"?  Maybe they wouldn't be stuck trying to sell/give away/deed back ownerships if they hadn't been mislead into thinking good things are guaranteed forever. How many wouldn't have paid retail had they known the REAL cost is the annual fees? And that by paying the big retail price to a developer that refuses to relinquish management and control would mean uncontrolled fee increases to make sure the developers bottom line continues to be positive?  

I shudder to see the latest in great deals as they appear. Almost invariably the end result is an even longer thread bemoaning the fact that buyers ever got involved. Realize that points are nothing more than another method of exchange and buy only if that is what you wish to use.


----------



## PerryM

*My Crystal Ball says...*

I'm headed down to the beach and I doubt this thread will uncover anything useful so let me recap my guess what Marriott/Wyndham will do:


Will introduce a sales gimmick disguised as an "Internal Exchange System"
Resales will fall 25% of where they used to be forever
ROFR will be restarted at 35% of current sales prices (60% - 25% = 35%) at some time
$2,500 will be charged per week for non-Marriott sales (might have an into period where it will start at $1,500)
2 years after intro folks will be no better off than with II now
There will be a lot of irate Marriott owners 2 years from intro
Sales will be no better for Marriott - way too complicated for newbies

That's it - my forecast.

I'm sure this will be booked marked by folks and I'll be hearing about it 2 years after into but that just means folks must listen to me right?

I'm out of this thread - PM if some earth shattering news hits.


----------



## rsackett

Here is my 2 cents.

1) I will join the Marriott internal exchange program if I think it helps me and I am comfortable with the cost (read minimal).

2) If I do not like the new system and/or it costs too much I will just continue to use II as long as that system stays the same, and I will not give the new system s second thought.

3) If Marriott/II change how II works and I do not like the changes I will drop II and work with the independents, or trade direct, or just use my weeks myself.

No matter what happens I will get use out of and enjoy my Marriott TimeShares!

Ray


----------



## jlf58

Ok, I will play 

1. It will be delayed from June ( it always is with them )
2. I hear no home resort priority which , if thats the case, the whole basics behind it will fail 
3. very few resale owners will join due to costs 
4. only a handful of owners will by additional weeks at time of rollout  ( this will come as a shock to them as people not paying 70K for Marco also came as a shock to them )
5. new inventory will be sold this way and it will take years before they even get 10% of there owners to use it so most of you can chill out.
6. They will do what MVCI does best, which is "FEE" you for everything 

so to answer what people were thinking, I have zero confidence in Marriott's ability to make this work 




rsackett said:


> Here is my 2 cents.
> 
> 1) I will join the Marriott internal exchange program if I think it helps me and I am comfortable with the cost (read minimal).
> 
> 2) If I do not like the new system and/or it costs too much I will just continue to use II as long as that system stays the same, and I will not give the new system s second thought.
> 
> 3) If Marriott/II change how II works and I do not like the changes I will drop II and work with the independents, or trade direct, or just use my weeks myself.
> 
> No matter what happens I will get use out of and enjoy my Marriott TimeShares!
> 
> Ray


----------



## Powerguy

So, as soon as you buy a retail week from Marriott your investment has decreased even more that it did before because now if you sell resale the buyer will want a bigger discount so that they can buy into the Marriott point system.

How does a sales guy spin that pitch? I guess that it would be an added incentinve to have the developer sell your unit and take their cut so that the new buyer would buy from the developer and have freee access to teh point system. If that is the case, and Marriott continues to will sell direct purchase and resale weeks for owners, have they just killed their own "value" buy buying direct? Marriott will sell all weeks for the same price so the net to the seller will be the same whether they bought developer of resale. Is my logic valid?


----------



## kjd

Everyone views TUG as a way to get information to better help owners and renters with their timeshare activities.  This thread unfortunately is drifting off into sort of a twilight zone with predictions of doom for resale owners based upon a non-existent internal trading system.  A non-existent trading system that even Marriott won't say will be implemented.  This goes beyond the concept of speculation.  Some of the posts have already written the rules and the financial costs to current owners.

As far as someone dredging up quotes from old posts I think it serves no good purpose except for those who like "gotch-yas".  Everyone has the right to change their mind.  We need to cut Perry some slack.  For those who insist on consistency I quote author Oscar Wilde: "Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative".

By the way, when can I pay my $1,500 in order to take Marriott's introductory offer for the internal trading system?


----------



## m61376

So Fletch did this have something to do with your decision to leave?


----------



## ldanna

Fletch said:


> so to answer what people were thinking, I have zero confidence in Marriott's ability to make this work



I am new around here but I am starting to like this guy (like almost everybody here does). He lives in the real world, and apparently some Marriott people don't (we can understand around here why Marco Island is not selling a week for $70k)

There's only one way any new system to work: it has to be better than the current one (I am not saying the Marriott/II is perfect, but if you know how to play, you will score big).


----------



## JimIg23

I still can't wrap my head around doing these things to resales.  If resales only account for 7% of sales, why would Marriott bother?  Giving resales the same benefits (like in Disney), how does that impact their sales operation?  unless someone here has stats, I doubt if the % will change no matter how resales are treated. Plus, I have to say based on what I have read around on TUG and other places, Disney seems to have the most respect amount the TSs.


----------



## Latravel

Powerguy said:


> So, as soon as you buy a retail week from Marriott your investment has decreased... Is my logic valid?



I think your logic is a little off because you base it on the assumption your timeshare is an investment.  It is not.  When you purchase your unit from Marriott, they make you initial that you are aware they do not guarantee any return on your purchase, and that your unit is for your enjoyment only.


----------



## winger

We consider each of our timeshares a vehicle, a vehicle to take us on manu wonderful trips/vacations. And like all vehicles, timeshare purchase start to lose value immediately after you sign the papers and take the keys.  They continue to decrease in value every year until they are worth $nada. Also like normal vehicles, you need to pay the TS vehicle $gas (aka MF's) to get anywhere.  In the end, just buy a few different types of vehicles, buy what you can afford, and enjoy your fabulous trips ; )


----------



## Pit

... or just rent a vehicle whenever you need one and let someone else take the depreciation. You don't have to own it to enjoy using it.


----------



## jimf41

Fletch,
I'm a relative newbie but I don't think you're on the mark with everything.


1. It will be delayed from June ( it always is with them )

*Probably, the first I heard it was going to be introduced in 2007. Pretty easy guess on your part.*

2. I hear no home resort priority which , if thats the case, the whole basics behind it will fail 

*This is a pretty vague statement. Are you talking about trading into your home resort? The deed says you get a week in your home resort before any outsiders.*

3. very few resale owners will join due to costs 

*That remains to be seen. If its a good deal for me I'll do it, if not I won't. Marriott has to make it a good deal, or sell it as a good deal, or else why would they come up with a system that's voluntary but no one likes? Even Enron was a good deal for the first ten years or so. As far as resale owners go, they're only 7% of the owners. I think they'll grandfather them in and start a new slate. If not, they are still only 7% of owners and Marriott will still make the same money they always made on them. The only resale owners I see getting hurt  on this are the ones that violated the PRIME DIRECTIVE and bought to trade and not to use. Those folks can still trade though II so I don't think it's going to hurt very much unless they try to sell. If you bought a TS to make a financial profit then you deserve what you get. Very cruel, very true.*


4. only a handful of owners will by additional weeks at time of rollout ( this will come as a shock to them as people not paying 70K for Marco also came as a shock to them )

*I think this goes along with what the rep was selling me about the different levels that are tiered by how many high weeks you own. They will sell it that way. It is questionable whether that will work out the way they intend. Look, if the majority of new inductees join with bronze weeks and the rest of us stay with II then its a bust for them. I don't want to trade my  plat Ocean Pointe week for HHI in January. I want to go to the Caribbean in FEB/MAR. If they can't do that then  its a non-starter with me. *

5. new inventory will be sold this way and it will take years before they even get 10% of there owners to use it so most of you can chill out.

*Not if they do it right. Offer us a better, cheaper system than II and it's a winner from the first day.*


6. They will do what MVCI does best, which is "FEE" you for everything 

so to answer what people were thinking, I have zero confidence in Marriott's ability to make this work 

*Unfortunately, I have to agree with you on this one. Although lately I have seen signs that they hired somebody with a head for business and keeping loyal customers happy. The food in the CL's is improving. The Elite night credits for 3k CC spending is nice. The Elite night credit for TS stays is a great benefit for owners. If Big Bill would just listen to this guy instead of his bean counters I think we'd all be happier and he'd get richer.*


----------



## jlf58

SEE ANSWERS IN CAPS 




jimf41 said:


> Fletch,
> I'm a relative newbie but I don't think you're on the mark with everything.
> 
> 
> 1. It will be delayed from June ( it always is with them )
> 
> *Probably, the first I heard it was going to be introduced in 2007. Pretty easy guess on your part.*
> WE AGREE
> 
> 
> 2. I hear no home resort priority which , if thats the case, the whole basics behind it will fail
> 
> *This is a pretty vague statement. Are you talking about trading into your home resort? The deed says you get a week in your home resort before any outsiders.* WHEN YOU BUY POINTS, YOU WILL HAVE NO HOME RESORT PRIORITY FOR BOOKING. HOPEFULLY THEY ARE NOT DUMB ENOUGH TO ROLL IT OUT THIS WAY BUT I WAS TOLD YES BY A FEW PEOPLE.
> 
> 3. very few resale owners will join due to costs
> 
> *That remains to be seen. If its a good deal for me I'll do it, if not I won't. Marriott has to make it a good deal, or sell it as a good deal, or else why would they come up with a system that's voluntary but no one likes? Even Enron was a good deal for the first ten years or so. As far as resale owners go, they're only 7% of the owners. I think they'll grandfather them in and start a new slate. If not, they are still only 7% of owners and Marriott will still make the same money they always made on them. The only resale owners I see getting hurt  on this are the ones that violated the PRIME DIRECTIVE and bought to trade and not to use. Those folks can still trade though II so I don't think it's going to hurt very much unless they try to sell. If you bought a TS to make a financial profit then you deserve what you get. Very cruel, very true.*
> GEEZ, GIVE ME SOME CREDIT. NOBODY WIL GET GRANDFATHERED IN FOR FREE AND RESALE OWNERS WILL PAY LOTS MORE. YOU CAN  TAKE THAT TO THE BANK
> 
> 
> 4. only a handful of owners will by additional weeks at time of rollout ( this will come as a shock to them as people not paying 70K for Marco also came as a shock to them )
> 
> *I think this goes along with what the rep was selling me about the different levels that are tiered by how many high weeks you own. They will sell it that way. It is questionable whether that will work out the way they intend. Look, if the majority of new inductees join with bronze weeks and the rest of us stay with II then its a bust for them. I don't want to trade my  plat Ocean Pointe week for HHI in January. I want to go to the Caribbean in FEB/MAR. If they can't do that then  its a non-starter with me. *
> AS MENTIONED, THIS WILL TAKE FOREVER TO WORK CORRECTLY
> 
> 5. new inventory will be sold this way and it will take years before they even get 10% of there owners to use it so most of you can chill out.
> 
> *Not if they do it right. Offer us a better, cheaper system than II and it's a winner from the first day.*
> CHEAPER ? NO WAY. BETTER, MAYBE IN 6 OR 7 YEARS BUT NOT BEFORE
> 
> 
> 6. They will do what MVCI does best, which is "FEE" you for everything
> 
> AGREED AGAIN
> 
> 
> *Unfortunately, I have to agree with you on this one. Although lately I have seen signs that they hired somebody with a head for business and keeping loyal customers happy. The food in the CL's is improving. The Elite night credits for 3k CC spending is nice. The Elite night credit for TS stays is a great benefit for owners. If Big Bill would just listen to this guy instead of his bean counters I think we'd all be happier and he'd get richer.*


----------



## jlf58

1. much better run company with a better and streamlined product
2. Marriott Rewards points 98% of the time, have become useless ( not so 7 1/2 years ago ) 
3. *management *
4. I had concerns about this rollout and managements expectations from us about it 

BTW
I was 4th top person in my dept they lost to the Mouse. 






m61376 said:


> So Fletch did this have something to do with your decision to leave?


----------



## winger

Pit said:


> ... or just rent a vehicle whenever you need one and let someone else take the depreciation. You don't have to own it to enjoy using it.


I am an ownership-type of guy!  Well, I rent once in a while, too


----------



## Latravel

_"...NOBODY WIL GET GRANDFATHERED IN FOR FREE..."_

I never understood why people thought Marriott would grandfather anyone in for free.  The point of this new option is to generate revenue so it doesnt make sense.  Sometimes people say it is for good relations, to promote good will with resale purchasers but I never believed this was a consumer group they would reward or target.  They want the people who will spend $70,000 for a unit on Marco Island.  This group they may give a discount.

I hope Marriott grandfather's everyone in or offers the product at a low price for everyone but I would be completely surprised.


----------



## winger

Latravel said:


> _"...NOBODY WIL GET GRANDFATHERED IN FOR FREE..."_
> 
> ...
> 
> I hope Marriott grandfather's everyone in or offers the product at a very low price for everyone but I would be completely surprised.


I also hope so too (sub $1000?), but unfortunately I doubt it.  As I mentioned in these parts before, I believe Old Man Bill has fallen off his rocker and should have passed on the baton a few years ago.  Out of greed, over confidence, and some bit of 'unawareness of reality', Marriott will likely charge $2000+ for conversion to the points system...resulting in Marriott will having a hard time to get this points game rolling.  Especially in this economy (it is not going to improve much by June 2010), current developer owners as a group will not want to shell out anymore money on what seems to be a seemly money pit (increasing MF's on a ever-decreasing value) , analogus to paying more and more money every year to fix a worn down car, plus requiring a larger gas budget because of decreasing gas mileage (cars' gas mileage generally decrease with age) ... at some point, it just isn't worth putting more money into an old car...

Resale owners, who maybe a smarter bunch, will not want to pay a higher price than developer-owners.  It is just NOT in a resaler's blood to do such a thing.

Plus, having to try to understand the options of doing both points (internal trades) and II exchanges (for external trades) ... come on, us TUGers will be in a better position to _eventually_ understand how the system works, but will the average Joe (or Jane) sitting through their first, second or even third presentation?   The sales person will probably lose the client from the get-go with all this mumbo jumbo process.  I can just see my DW with this puzzle look on her face, like WTH did he [salesman] just say???


----------



## DanCali

Fletch said:


> I hear no home resort priority which , if thats the case, the whole basics behind it will fail



I'm confused - with no home resort priority booking how do they plan to sell Hawaii or Marco Island timeshares? How would they counter the "why shouldn't I buy in Orlando and vacation in Hawaii" question?


----------



## Starbucks

DanCali said:


> I'm confused - with no home resort priority booking how do they plan to sell Hawaii or Marco Island timeshares? How would they counter the "why shouldn't I buy in Orlando and vacation in Hawaii" question?



Easy one, the amount of points you will need for HI is higher than the points you receive for your Orlando TS.

Just to add my thoughts to the new "maybe" program:

I think that the new system will not be too different from the current one they are selling in Asia (=MVCI Asia-Pacific). I´ve written some details about that program in another thread and as stated over there my main concern with that programm is that if you are not flexible with your vacation time there is no way to trade up. If you want to secure your 2-BDR unit during prime time you will have to fork over the required points. Naturally new resorts will require more points so as the years pass by your "old" points purchase will not be enough to secure your trade into those new resorts. As of now Marriott can increase my maintenance fees but they can´t change the fact that a week is a week and will be a week in 15 years down the road. So as long as there is someone willing to exchange his week for my week and i am able to find that person, i don´t need Marriott.


----------



## jlf58

correct BUT you think they would have learned by places like Newport & Aruba Ocean Club that everyone calling at 9am for a certain location, DOESNT WORK. 



Starbucks said:


> Easy one, the amount of points you will need for HI is higher than the points you receive for your Orlando TS.
> 
> Just to add my thoughts to the new "maybe" program:
> 
> I think that the new system will not be too different from the current one they are selling in Asia (=MVCI Asia-Pacific). I´ve written some details about that program in another thread and as stated over there my main concern with that programm is that if you are not flexible with your vacation time there is no way to trade up. If you want to secure your 2-BDR unit during prime time you will have to fork over the required points. Naturally new resorts will require more points so as the years pass by your "old" points purchase will not be enough to secure your trade into those new resorts. As of now Marriott can increase my maintenance fees but they can´t change the fact that a week is a week and will be a week in 15 years down the road. So as long as there is someone willing to exchange his week for my week and i am able to find that person, i don´t need Marriott.


----------



## JimIg23

winger said:


> I also hope so too (sub $1000?), but unfortunately I doubt it.  As I mentioned in these parts before, I believe Old Man Bill has fallen off his rocker and should have passed on the baton a few years ago.  Out of greed, over confidence, and some bit of 'unawareness of reality', Marriott will likely charge $2000+ for conversion to the points system...resulting in Marriott will having a hard time to get this points game rolling.  Especially in this economy (it is not going to improve much by June 2010), current developer owners as a group will not want to shell out anymore money on what seems to be a seemly money pit (increasing MF's on a ever-decreasing value) , analogus to paying more and more money every year to fix a worn down car, plus requiring a larger gas budget because of decreasing gas mileage (cars' gas mileage generally decrease with age) ... at some point, it just isn't worth putting more money into an old car...
> 
> Resale owners, who maybe a smarter bunch, will not want to pay a higher price than developer-owners.  It is just NOT in a resaler's blood to do such a thing.



I agree with this.  If they ask for alot of money from current owners (direct and resale), they may find not many people are willing to buy in because people now a days dont have it.  Maybe after a few months of low enrollment, they will have a "sale" and lower the cost of entry.


----------



## aka Julie

I just hope WHEN they do roll out their program they make it clear how many points are required for every location and season so that I can make an informed decision on what my paltry silver weeks at Barony will get me.

I have both developer weeks (2 silver at Barony) and resale (1 platinum at Shadowridge).  If I don't like the new program or the entry fee is too high, I'm perfectly happy going to my home resorts during my season and won't need their new program.


----------



## m61376

Starbucks said:


> Easy one, the amount of points you will need for HI is higher than the points you receive for your Orlando TS.
> 
> Just to add my thoughts to the new "maybe" program:
> 
> I think that the new system will not be too different from the current one they are selling in Asia (=MVCI Asia-Pacific). I´ve written some details about that program in another thread and as stated over there my main concern with that programm is that if you are not flexible with your vacation time there is no way to trade up. If you want to secure your 2-BDR unit during prime time you will have to fork over the required points. Naturally new resorts will require more points so as the years pass by your "old" points purchase will not be enough to secure your trade into those new resorts. As of now Marriott can increase my maintenance fees but they can´t change the fact that a week is a week and will be a week in 15 years down the road. So as long as there is someone willing to exchange his week for my week and i am able to find that person, i don´t need Marriott.



When I had read your post sometime back that's what went through my mind. I was wondering if it was a small-scale trial for the overall points program. Not only were buy-ins high (even for developer bought weeks), but there didn't seem to be any home resort advantage. It appeared (to me at least) that once you bought into the points system you no longer owned an actually week anywhere. MF's were distributed by points, such that Bronze week owners, receiving fewer points, paid lower MF's that Plat. week owners. IF that was how Marriott intends to revamp the system it could make it a nightmare. I am not sure how they are logistically going to treat the MF's IF they adopt the same type of program.

I bought where I like to visit. I want first priority to booking my owned week, and don't want to be competing with every other owner elsewhere who may have enough points to make the reservation. 

The other big issue I saw is that the point distribution was such that even a Plat. Las Vegas week, for ex., would only qualify for a partial week in a more premium location, or for a smaller unit. I don't remember the specifics, but I remember being a bit surprised at the details you had posted at how poorly some of the weeks did- even some of the Hawaii weeks not having enough points to trade into another Hawaii resort of similar size.

JimIg23- I wouldn't be surprised IF the new program doesn't get the reception they anticipate if they try to encourage joining by running promotions.

Latravel- I know we've disagreed on this, but even though they may not want to reward prior resale purchasers, they have little to gain by not grandfathering. If they make the buy in high, then resale buyers will continue to trade in II and Marriott will have less initial adopters to the new program; they will also have lost the only thing that penalizing current owners could give them- a few extra dollars in buy in, and the price of the loss of goodwill may be much higher. It may turn out that I am naive, but I always believed that Marriott would care about its customers and not try to alienate any subset. After all, I still contend that many, if not most, resale buyers are also direct purchasers and all, if they are happy, will be potential future buyers of new resorts. Only 7% may be resales, but the percentage of owners who own one or more resale weeks may be considerably higher (since many people who own developer weeks have bought those 7% of resales). Antagonizing perhaps 15 or 20% of owners can't be in anyone's best interests. I know that if I feel that Marriott treats me unfairly I will never buy another week from them, no matter how beautiful or enticing the next resort is. If I feel they treated me right, I'll remain a loyal customer and could possibly be enticed to buy direct if the property and the incentives were right.

As for future property transfers- I can see the logic in penalizing future resales since it provides a strong incentive to direct purchases, BUT it will decimate the resale market and may negatively impact their reputation and overall saleability over time. It is true that it is not advertised as an investment, BUT it is sold at least partially as one, with reference to retained value. IF one was to approach a Marco sale for 70K, for example, with the attitude that they were plunking down the money and losing not only the principal but the income of let's say $3500 a year from it, and there was not re-saleability (a valueless asset) it would be pretty hard to sell the week. The buyer would be out about 70K+ 4500 a year and climbing (as MF's increase) for the right to go to Florida for the week. That's pretty hard to justify, at least in my book. The illusion of property with retained value sells the weeks and is used in any sales pitch to justify the purchase. Marriott just needs to look at what Starwood's voluntary resorts are selling for to realize what will happen under such a system. In today's Internet savvy public, it won't be long before their reputation is in the toilet.


----------



## Superchief

If there is no 'home ownership' in the new point system, will that mean that only those who are home resort owners (in the old system) will get preferred locations when they stay at their home resort? This would be another reason not to join.


----------



## mtnpilot

OK, I've been sitting on the sidelines listening to the conversation, but I want to jump in.  If, as PerryM suggests, this new scheme is designed primarily to suppress the resale market, then a "pure" points-based system makes no sense.  In order to devalue resales, there has to be some sharp distinction between the deed and the points (as is the case with non-mandatory properties in the Starwood system).  A purely points-based system means that developer units will be sold as point packages, as DVC does, and not as deeded weeks.  In DVC, I realize that the points are tied to actual days of use in a given condo unit, but the points are inherent to the use. With DVC, the difference in price between developer and resale units is much less pronounced because of that.  In a pure points-based system, the points are included in the deed, and go with it to the resale buyer.

If it is true that Marriott is going to a pure points-based system, it would behoove them to encourage ALL owners to join the system by making it as easy and cheap as possible.  That would be key to making a new trading system a success.

I know some of you, perhaps most, believe Marriott is moving toward this system for one reason: PROFITS!  And because of that, I'll not put anything past them.  Profits seem to be the primary motivation over at Starwood also, and that seems to be bringing that system down to its knees.  One would hope that moderation and prudence would prevail, particularly in such a depressed market.  But we'll just have to wait and see what surprises are in store.  I for one am glad I purchased in places where I want to go back every year.

Mike


----------



## winger

m61376 said:


> ...The illusion of property with retained value sells the weeks and is used in any sales pitch to justify the purchase. ....


wanna see one reason American cars have been in the toilet for so many years?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122706313908040047.html


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... The illusion of property with retained value sells the weeks and is used in any sales pitch to justify the purchase. ...



Once more, "any" is incorrect here.  The value sold to me was in usage, not in real property.  I find it very difficult to believe that those of us on TUG who have stated the same are the only direct purchasers in the whole of Marriott's ownership base who were told the same thing, especially as the sales presentation materials and governing documents completely support what was told to us and completely disavow any real property value assertions that apparently have been made to every TUG resale purchaser.

Sometimes these discussions about resale v. developer really do contain an insult of intelligence on the part of any direct buyers.  I hate that we direct buyers are in the minority on TUG (although not throughout the ownership base,) because it  means that we are consistently and frequently asked to defend our direct purchases.  Do I ever ask if you resale buyers had your heads on straight when you bought a Marriott week without first browsing and understanding the governing docs?  No, I don't, even though it is sometimes obvious here that some of you had no clue how much power Marriott actually holds of your ownership by virtue of the resort management agreement.  All of us can be said to be somewhat lacking in total knowledge on the day that we signed the papers, but it is really frustrating to constantly see here that every developer buyer was totally lacking.  It just isn't the truth.

TUG is such a great resource for any timeshare owner, but I am slowly coming to realize that it's as much an "old boy" network for resale purchasers as the BODs are assumed to be in that other thread.  It's no wonder developer purchasers don't post here in numbers equal to the ownership percentage - our words are totally ignored so that resale arguments can be made to look 100% correct.

(Mods, I am frustrated here but not angry, and I believe that what I'm saying is not meant to insult.  Hopefully this post and others like it will be able to stand exactly as the "RESCIND NOW YOU WERE AN IDIOT!" - in 42 pt gigantic red type, no less - blatherings remain whenever they're posted.)


----------



## winger

SueDonJ said:


> ...
> 
> (Mods, I am frustrated here but not angry, and I believe that what I'm saying is not meant to insult.  Hopefully this post and others like it will be able to stand exactly as the "RESCIND NOW YOU WERE AN IDIOT!" - in 42 pt gigantic red type, no less - blatherings remain whenever they're posted.)


I purchased resale, but directly through Marriott, and I still do not regret it nor am I afraid to let people know. Availability to convert to usage to Marriott Reward Points,  privy to enjoy any future benefit Marriott will devise to reward developer purchasers, and ease of closing were our top priority to purchase direct.   We made this decision after discovering TUG and read the pro/cons of resale versus developer purchase.  As a matter of fact, if memory serves me right, we found TUG only because we were contemplating purchasing a Timber Lodge unit from Marriott.

BTW, is there empirical proof a majority of TUG members are resale owners?  My gut feel tells me developer + developer/resale hybrids make up a majority of TUG owners.  Again, my gut feel is rarely incorrect.


----------



## mkahanek

*how*



winger said:


> I purchased resale, but directly through Marriott, and I still do not regret it nor am I afraid to let people know. Availability to convert to usage to Marriott Reward Points,  privy to enjoy any future benefit Marriott will devise to reward developer purchasers, and ease of closing were our top priority to purchase direct.   We made this decision after discovering TUG and read the pro/cons of resale versus developer purchase.  As a matter of fact, if memory serves me right, we found TUG only because we were contemplating purchasing a Timber Lodge unit from Marriott.
> 
> BTW, is there empirical proof a majority of TUG members are resale owners?  My gut feel tells me developer + developer/resale hybrids make up a majority of TUG owners.  Again, my gut feel is rarely incorrect.



How does one purchase resale through marriott?  Is there any savings on that route?


----------



## Stefa

I was told at Ko'Olina (is there a pattern here?) that the timeshare would appreciate in value because Hawaiian real estate was so valuable.   The other two presentations I have attended made no such claim.  

To be clear, I never asked.  At Ko'Olina the salesman brought it up.  At the other two presentations future value was not mentioned and the timeshare was not presented as real estate.


----------



## James1975NY

mkahanek said:


> How does one purchase resale through marriott?  Is there any savings on that route?



Plenty of savings versus the retail option. Currently, the only difference when purchasing resale is that you will not have the opportunity to redeem your vacation owneship interest into the hotel points ~ which, many feel that trading your timeshare in for hotels is not an equitable exchange.


----------



## SueDonJ

mkahanek said:


> How does one purchase resale through marriott?  Is there any savings on that route?



Exactly the same as a developer-inventory purchase, and for all intents and purposes there is virtually no difference including the price.  Where a TUG differential is made between "direct" and "resale" weeks, I always assume that "resale" means from an external market.  "Marriott resale" is pretty much interchangeable with "developer direct."

Two of our weeks were Marriott resales - we bought two SurfWatch weeks together and didn't even realize that one was a Marriott resale until the paperwork was drawn up and there were obvious differences in the two contracts.  Our second Marriott resale week was our Barony week; we asked our rep to find us the exact configuration we wanted and waited about 4 months for it to become available.


----------



## SueDonJ

James1975NY said:


> Plenty of savings versus the retail option. Currently, the only difference when purchasing resale is that you will not have the opportunity to redeem your vacation owneship interest into the hotel points ~ which, many feel that trading your timeshare in for hotels is not an equitable exchange.



James, I think mkahanek is asking about purchasing directly from Marriott here.


----------



## m61376

Susan- It was not my intention in any way to infer anything negative about direct purchases. All of my dealings with salespeople at least inferred that their was a value to the actual ownership, and an issue was made about it being deeded so that its inherent value doesn't become nil at some future point. True, they take great strides to cover themselves and not guarantee any value (akin to a stock prospectus) but, as with an IPO, for example, if you felt that as soon as you bought it it would be worthless I venture to guess you'd never make the purchase. 

This really is not a direct versus resale discussion. Rather, it is underlining that Marriott salespeople at least infer that there is some value to owning a week. It is not purely the right to reserve a week. People are told they are actually buying something, and the assumption is made that therefore there is a retained value. That's why timeshares differ from destination clubs, wherein people may plunk down thousands of dollars merely for a right to reserve without owning anything. Even thought they may absolve themselves of all responsibility if, in fact, the properties become worthless, by virtue of promoting ownership they are implying value. I believe that most people buy feeling they are holding onto something valuable.

Let me ask you something- would you have paid the $$$'s you did for your units if you felt that the money you spent was thrown out and the only thing you had was a yearly obligation to pay a MF and the right to reserve a week? Maybe you would have, but I'd venture to guess that most purchasers- whether they bought direct or resale, would not have spent the money purely for the right to make a reservation without feeling that they had some inherent value. The only exceptions would be those who bought low cost weeks (such as Bronze weeks, even from Marriott directly) not for the inherent value of the weeks but just for Flexchange traders. Those buyers likely bought just for the right to make a reservation. Other than that subset of owners, even though people buy for usage, the purchase is justified by the feeling that there is some value to what they've bought.

I believe that very few sales would happen if people felt from the outset that their purchase had no residual value (and that includes both developer and resale sales [don't forget, resales also cost 4 and 5 figures]). And, if you really don't think that salespeople promote that concept, then there would be no resale market at all and certainly no one would be listing units with unrealistic asking prices (the reason that many ask such high prices is because they have been led to believe that the value is retained and, in many cases, people even believe that it appreciates). 

And- just to set the record straight- I never told anyone to rescind because they were an idiot- that's really quite insulting. I have told people to rescind because, quite honestly, if someone is posting as to whether they made the right decision or not I feel they likely bought on impulse, while in vacation mode, and should take the time to learn about timeshares, about Marriott and about where and how to buy before making a decision. Once people have researched enough for themselves they likely will not post a question like that. The truth is, there is only a short opportunity to rescind and regrets can be very costly. And I do think that direct purchases were advantageous when prices were a bit lower, up front incentives much higher, MF's lower and before the point devaluations. Unfortunately, those parameters didn't exist when I bought, so I made an educated decision for me. That doesn't make you wrong and me right, but it certainly doesn't make me wrong either. And, just so you know- since I did buy expensive units regardless of how I purchased them, I would not have bought if I felt I was just buying the right to reserve and wasn't buying anything that had any inherent value. Can you honestly say you would have? Would others here have?


----------



## SueDonJ

winger said:


> I purchased resale, but directly through Marriott, and I still do not regret it nor am I afraid to let people know. Availability to convert to usage to Marriott Reward Points,  privy to enjoy any future benefit Marriott will devise to reward developer purchasers, and ease of closing were our top priority to purchase direct.   We made this decision after discovering TUG and read the pro/cons of resale versus developer purchase.  As a matter of fact, if memory serves me right, we found TUG only because we were contemplating purchasing a Timber Lodge unit from Marriott.
> 
> BTW, is there empirical proof a majority of TUG members are resale owners?  My gut feel tells me developer + developer/resale hybrids make up a majority of TUG owners.  Again, my gut feel is rarely incorrect.



We have the same purchase story, except I wanted to look at DVC but compromised with Don for Marriott.  It was the best compromise we've ever made once we found Hilton Head.   

You could be right about the numbers on TUG, maybe I'm just feeling like an underdog.  But even if we have equal direct/resale buyers here, I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming opinion for new purchases is BUY RESALE!  (again in that gigantic RED font.)


----------



## timeos2

*The best way isn't the only way*



SueDonJ said:


> I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming opinion for new purchases is BUY RESALE!  (again in that gigantic RED font.)



Yes, it is. But do not read into that a majority have purchased that way themselves - especially the first buy (or two -thee...) but rather that experience has shown it to be the best value for all timeshares.  Usually it is an honest attempt to steer newbies toward what most wish they had known prior to purchase rather than picking on buyers who purchased at retail. 

The only time I feel that perhaps the best information going - buy resale to save big - gets ignored, and I'll admit it bugs me, is when long timers that should know better somehow get roped into a new, overpriced retail purchase. For some strange reason I almost feel it a personal insult that they failed to heed the warnings and fell for the line of bull that makes up most retail sales. The classic example being the nearly worthless, in absolute dollars, Wyndham VIP.  There is no level of cost that could make the difference between developer purchase and resale purchase simply to get VIP an actual value since the program changes of 2003.  None. Yet some have been talked into it and with tortured logic try to defend it. It cannot be done yet they appear to be under the retail sales pitch spell. I'll never get it.  

There are other examples but you get the idea. Ultimately we all have to hope what we bought, however we bought it, is a value TO US. If so all is well and any talk of retail/resale or anything else is background noise as we enjoy some great trips. I hope you enjoy your ownership and that applies no matter how it got done or what you paid.


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... Can you honestly say you would have? Would others here have?



m,  I honestly don't know how to say it any clearer.  The value we bought is in usage.  It was made quite clear to us that there was no inherent financial value in our weeks.  The deeds stipulate a property but confer rights of usage of the weeks subject to the governing docs of the resort.  That's what we bought.

Considering that I had first looked at DVC and was familiar with a timeshare system that in no way conferred a property ownership, actually had an ending date for ownership, maybe Marriott's lack of financial guarantee didn't seem so "out there" to me.  Once I browsed the resale markets for established Marriott resorts there was no question that we'd be better off thinking that we'd never see the upfront money again, and we'd better be darn sure that this was what we wanted for a vacation lifestyle.  It was, and we were comfortable, still are comfortable, with our choice to buy direct.

I am sorry if you think that everything in my post was directed to only you.  Unfortunately, that one line in your post was what set me off, but I in no way meant that you have been as insulting to some developer purchasers as others have been.  I do, though, sometimes think that you paint with a very broad brush and dismiss easily the points made by other posters which contradict the points you're trying to make.  

Your "rescind" posts are generally very informative and courteous.  In fact, I've told a few folks here on TUG, too, that they should rescind while they can if it's apparent that they don't know what they've just bought.  Your rescind posts, and mine, and several others', don't fall in the GIGANTIC 42PT RED FONT category that I really hate to see.  Again, I'm sorry to mislead you there.

And yes, I would buy what and how I did all over again.  We're very happy with our Marriott ownership and don't feel that we've been hoodwinked in the least.


----------



## Twinkstarr

SueDonJ said:


> We have the same purchase story, except I wanted to look at DVC but compromised with Don for Marriott.  It was the best compromise we've ever made once we found Hilton Head.
> 
> You could be right about the numbers on TUG, maybe I'm just feeling like an underdog.  But even if we have equal direct/resale buyers here, I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming opinion for new purchases is BUY RESALE!  (again in that gigantic RED font.)



I think you just are a little touchy about this Sue. Hey, I bought all my DVC points from Disney! I don't lose any sleep over my direct purchase or what anyone here at TUG says about direct/resale.

I about bought a platinum Marriott MB week direct last summer, but while it would have made barely a blip in financial status, I couldn't pull the plug on the deal from what I've seen on the resale market. Didn't make "business sense" to me.


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## lovearuba

*another option*



Twinkstarr said:


> I think you just are a little touchy about this Sue. Hey, I bought all my DVC points from Disney! I don't lose any sleep over my direct purchase or what anyone here at TUG says about direct/resale.
> 
> I about bought a platinum Marriott MB week direct last summer, but while it would have made barely a blip in financial status, I couldn't pull the plug on the deal from what I've seen on the resale market. Didn't make "business sense" to me.


 
Buy direct or buy resale, or dont buy at all since its cheaper to rent and you do not have to pay for those escalating maintenance fees.


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## Twinkstarr

lovearuba said:


> Buy direct or buy resale, or dont buy at all since its cheaper to rent and you do not have to pay for those escalating maintenance fees.



You're preaching to the choir, I own a Starwood week and luckily my resort might have had the smallest increase in the SVO network. It was still more than than my DVC points(3%ish).


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## melroseman

I'm with Sue on this one...there is a certain smugness in many of these posts, that the resale buyers are smart enough to beat the system.  As a developer purchaser on 2 of the 3 we own, I also feel a little offended at times.  And it is strange that the posts that crowed the loudest about what a great deal they got resale are now yelling the loudest that they may not get the same deal as developer purchasers.  As is usually the case in life, it's hard to have it both ways....


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## SpikeMauler

m61376 said:


> This really is not a direct versus resale discussion. Rather, it is underlining that Marriott salespeople at least infer that there is some value to owning a week. It is not purely the right to reserve a week. People are told they are actually buying something, and the assumption is made that therefore there is a retained value. That's why timeshares differ from destination clubs, wherein people may plunk down thousands of dollars merely for a right to reserve without owning anything. Even thought they may absolve themselves of all responsibility if, in fact, the properties become worthless, by virtue of promoting ownership they are implying value. I believe that most people buy feeling they are holding onto something valuable.




There was no infering on my tour of MFC(in 2008). I was told outright that the $36,100 price for a Plat week was considered "Pre construction pricing", and that when the resort is completed in 2012 the price for a Plat week would be re priced around $72,000. He essentially told me my week would double in value within 4 years. Luckily, I researched Timeshares on TUG before my trip to MFC and kind of knew what to expect(tho I didn't expect him to tell me the Price would double in 4 years). I said no thank you and came home and purchased a resale week for 60% off the "Pre construction pricing". The point is I can see how someone who doesn't do their homework could believe this, and buy on the spot thinking it was not only a great vacation value but a great investment as well.


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## timeos2

*To start they need quantity*

Lets not lose sight of the fact that anytime a new exchange system is given life - and that's all anything from Marriott for internal resort use really is, a simple new exchange company - one of the key items is a reasonable amount of inventory to tempt buyers.  It would be very hard to believe that even a rather arrogant group like Marriott would think they could make things fly without that.

How do they get inventory? By offering extremely aggressive start up pricing and making the offer to any owner. A few, not all, have even offered bonus points to early adopters to get them to buy in. The best of those offers were forever not just one or two year bonus points.  Every successful program rising from former weeks based ownerships has used some temptation tactics early. In fact it can be a true steal to get in at the start as they can really make it worth the small risk. 

Later - a year, two or three - they may raise pricing, create tiers of owners (usually based on week / season quality, not how it was purchased but not always) and even block some groups (truly off season times as a possible example or resales if they are really out to kill that market) from joining at all. Once they get the base established and the start up costs covered they can afford to become picky and may raise the membership buy in as much as 400% over the first, start up pricing.  And the price increase sticks when they are already covering costs, simply making more money and can afford to have people pass. 

I'd find it hard to believe that Marriott would close out anyone or make the entry significantly prohibitive as it is rolled out. If ever there was a case for "pre-operation pricing" deals a new points system in this economy may be it. I'd predict tough sledding if they insist on a tier/purchase type punitive pricing policy from the start and easy sales if they are in line with what every other group has done at first. My advice would be that IF they are reasonable - maybe even aggressive - with the pricing at launch that owners who might bite take a careful look then. Most likely this is one case when there really will be a higher price and maybe far more restrictions later and those that miss the opening deals may never be able to get them again. 

Ask the old time Fairfield owners that passed back in the early nineties and then faced thousands of dollars or even no way to upgrade their specific weeks to points which eventually took over that system for all intents. It took nearly a decade but points did supplement weeks there over time. I don't think Marriott could ever do that as they have sold far too many weeks while Fairfield had relatively few before moving all new sales to points only.  The points system is what saved them from bankruptcy. 

Bottom line if it is as open and aggressively priced as I expect when they open the door then be ready to buy in if it fits your use style. Waiting may be a big error IMO.


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## rsackett

SueDonJ said:


> Once more, "any" is incorrect here.  The value sold to me was in usage, not in real property.  ...



Why then do you have a deed rather than RTU agreement, if they were selling you the usage only and in the end it would be of zero value?

Ray


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## Dave M

I think you misunderstand, Ray. The focus for SueDon and for many of us - and Marriott's primary selling point - was the *value* being in the usage, with no claims made that the timeshare would appreciate in value. I didn't see any statement in SueDon's post that Marriott was selling only the usage.


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## SueDonJ

rsackett said:


> Why then do you have a deed rather than RTU agreement, if they were selling you the usage only and in the end it would be of zero value?
> 
> Ray



Where does this "usage only" and "zero value" come from?!  The deed confers ownership in the property, but more importantly usage according to the governing docs.  But a deed doesn't automatically guarantee an appreciating asset, does it?  I said that the usage was sold to us as the value of our purchase, and that there was no representation of a financial investment during our sales presentations.  That isn't the same thing at all as zero value.  If we were to put our weeks on the market today we could get some dollar value for them, but it would be nowhere near what we paid.

How is that any different from the depreciating external resale market?  Do resale buyers who buy specific week configurations for use, as we did, expect a timeshare to be an appreciating asset?  If so, on what do you base that expectation?

We're getting far away here from the one line in one post with which I took exception:


> ... The illusion of property with retained value sells the weeks and is used in any sales pitch to justify the purchase. ...


The truth is simply, not all direct buyers suffer illusions and not all sales presentations are pitched by charlatans.  Usage value is enough for me and many, many other informed direct buyers, as difficult as that may be to believe.


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## m61376

Dave M said:


> I think you misunderstand, Ray. The focus for SueDon and for many of us - and Marriott's primary selling point - was the *value* being in the usage, with no claims made that the timeshare would appreciate in value. I didn't see any statement in SueDon's post that Marriott was selling only the usage.



Unless I misunderstand also, I think Sue's contention is that Marriott never made any promises- implied or otherwise- that the unit would have any inherent value and that its only value was, in fact, the usage. I think the vast majority of people bought (regardless of how they bought) with the assumption that their purchase retains inherent $ value and that, if they felt that their purchase would be worthless except as a right to reserve, most would not plunk down five four and five figures for such purchases. I am excepting those who bought low cost weeks primarily for the Flexchange benefit.

If, as Sue seems to imply, people bought only for usage and not with any understanding that their purchase would retain value, then buying a timeshare is no different than buying a destination club's right to reserve. The fact that Marriott offers a deed and touts sales as buying something of value (that may even go up in price as many have attested to hearing) implies that their is retained value, regardless of how they try to cover themselves (again, just as stock offerings do) that no monetary value is guaranteed.

And, yes, I understand and agree that a timeshare is not a monetary investment, but I do think most people, even if they bought understanding that, still have the expectation of some degree of retained value and not a worthless item (wrt monetary value, not worthless wrt conveying the right to reserve a week).

Thus, I feel that Marriott would be walking a slippery slope if they decimate the resale market. There may be a few people who would buy a timeshare anyway, but I think it would be hard to justify a purchase if you felt that the entire purchase price was merely buying a right to reserve and there was no inherent value retained in the purchase itself. I know Sue takes issue with the statement, but I respectfully disagree and feel that Marriott proffers the illusion of property with retained value as a vehicle for promoting their sales. They protect themselves with statements that insulate their responsibility to maintain any value, but certainly imply that there is a value nevertheless (as Ray pointed out, even in the simple fact that they make a big issue that the properties are deeded, aside from the emphasis on price increases implying that what you purchase will be worth more, etc., that many of us have heard).


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## Dave M

I agree that "most people" probably consider a timeshare as real estate and consider the residual value in deciding whether to purchase. However, as a TUGger before I purchased my second and subsequent timeshares, I didn't look at it that way. And even for my first purchase in 1994, Marriott sold it (Grande Ocean) as an investment in future vacations, not as real estate.

What seems out of place here is that some posters don't seem to be able to accept that not all of us fit into that category of "most people".


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## m61376

I apologize if it any way I came across as not accepting that people of course buy for their own reasons- it really wasn't my intent. And anyone's reasons for purchasing are as good as anyone else's (that shouldn't need to be said).

I guess what I find so aggravating is that I think Marriott really has a good product, and I fear it is going to go down the same path as Starwood has. I must admit that I am surprised that timeshare buyers would shell out tens of thousands of dollars solely for the right to make reservations for a week each year (I actually thought that people elected to buy timeshares rather than destination clubs because they liked the idea of owning something- which implies an inherent value). However, as you point out, since at least most people consider the residual value, IF Marriott creates a system where resales become worthless, then I think they will have a very hard time making any sales. And that's bad for everyone.


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## kjd

Chalk me up an another person who bought for the future value of usage as DaveM succinctly points out.  That same concept is found throughout our daily life as we lease automobiles, obtain membership in a golf club, purchase a seat license at an NFL stadium, rent a house, purchase flying time on private aircraft such as NetJets, etc, etc, etc.  It's considered a legitimate form of ownership. 

All examples usually result in little or no equity when a customer is finished with the usage.   Who buys a Bentley when one costs $225,000?  Not many people.  Folks should not be criticized here for taking the value of usage approach when a residual value or profit was never part of their original purchase decision.

The argument that Silver season anywhere is cheap is incorrect in my view.  Even if a resale buyer is able to purchase a Silver or Bronze week for $100 they will still pay the same maintenance fee as a Platinum buyer.  Often these weeks rent for 50% of the yearly maintenance fee or less.  Those weeks do have some value when trading during flextime or during holiday weeks at a home resort.  They have value only to the person who owns them. 

You are getting basically what you paid for.  An out of season week with a normally low trade value and high maintenance fees.  Some of us can use these weeks but most can't.  Whenever I go to a Silver season resort the buildings are more than half empty.  I am sure there are some exceptions to this but I think they are few.


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## tidefan

JimIg23 said:


> I still can't wrap my head around doing these things to resales.  If resales only account for 7% of sales, why would Marriott bother?  Giving resales the same benefits (like in Disney), how does that impact their sales operation?  unless someone here has stats, I doubt if the % will change no matter how resales are treated. Plus, I have to say based on what I have read around on TUG and other places, Disney seems to have the most respect amount the TSs.



Disney is a bit of a different animal though.  Most of their units are directly on park properties.  As such, Disney has a vested interest in not letting these units go for dirt cheap as that would undercut their hotel business.

I do agree that as far as timesharing goes, they are a pretty good operation, IMHO.


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## Pit

Whether you choose to view your purchase as real-estate ownership or as pre-paid vacations is entirely independent of the resale vs. retail decision.

As a resale buyer, I appreciate those who pay retail, regardless of how you view your purchase. Without developer sales, there would be no resale market. It's a win-win situation.

What is truly unfortunate, is that so many retail buyers are unaware of the resale market. If someone with full knowledge decides that a developer purchase works best for them, I say go for it.


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## Latravel

melroseman said:


> I'm with Sue on this one...there is a certain smugness in many of these posts, that the resale buyers are smart enough to beat the system.  As a developer purchaser on 2 of the 3 we own, I also feel a little offended at times.  And it is strange that the posts that crowed the loudest about what a great deal they got resale are now yelling the loudest that they may not get the same deal as developer purchasers.  As is usually the case in life, it's hard to have it both ways....




Wow.  This post is genius!  It's very interesting that those most outspoken about being grandfathered are the ones who paid the least.  Some people want the best of both worlds but things don't always work out that way.  

Sue, you are not alone.  I bought 4 units direct from Marriott even after becoming a member of TUG.  I did it specifically to ensure any changes to the system would affect my units the least.

M -  yes, we spent money on Marriott timeshares without expecting any return.  We feel our units were almost paid for with the vacations we took with our incentive points so anything we get back is like the cherry on the sundae - a nice treat.  Just like when I buy new cars and I know they will depreciate as soon as I drive off the lot.  We won't get nearly what we paid if we sell but we got enjoyment and lots of use out of our purchase.  For this reason, we don't think about residual value but in general, we don't worry about the small dollars.  If we did, we should never have spent any money on something so frivolous and unnecessary as a timeshare.


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## Beverley

m61376 said:


> I guess what I find so aggravating is that I think Marriott really has a good product, and I fear it is going to go down the same path as Starwood has. I must admit that I am surprised that timeshare buyers would shell out tens of thousands of dollars solely for the right to make reservations for a week each year (I actually thought that people elected to buy timeshares rather than destination clubs because they liked the idea of owning something- which implies an inherent value).



I am very worried that Marriott is about to ruin the product that I thought was so superior to all the other products out there at the times we purchased.    We currently own six Marriott weeks ( all developer) and absolutely love the current process of reserving our weeks, using some and trading the others through II.  Some of our trades are for Marriott points to cover hotel and airfare and other trades are for added weeks in different locations.  If I had wanted a point system I would have bought more WorldMark or Hilton.  Instead, we only have the equivalent of one week in WorldMark and in Hilton and the remaining 6 with Marriott.  

The whole idea of a deeded week and the ownership of that gave us the idea that we would always be able to use the weeks or trade the weeks as we saw fit.   

I do not trust point systems.    There is too much of a possibility for the manager of points based programs to fiddle with the inventory.  This has been suspected of RCI points to the degree that there was a class action suit brought against them.  Then there are Starwood issues ... And then there was that salesman (I know it was a salesman) that explained to us last summer that Marriott going to a point system will allow Marriott to access all that rental inventory that is gotten via people turning in there units for points.  

This salesman claimed that Marriott will begin their points system by using that inventory to "fund" timeshare trades/ reservations in the point system so that the program looks good as it gets off the ground.  If Marriott can fund the timeshare reservations with that inventory then what stops them from taking the timeshare inventory to "fund" rentals at popular times at popular resorts later as Starwood is suspected of doing as of late.  Then, later down the road do you have access to your week ... your purchase of time within a season ... if the rental market is more lucrative to Marriott and moneys do not come back to the BOD and timeshare owners can no longer get the weeks they want???  

I am not a happy Marriott owner with what I think is going to be a travesty on the horizon!  :annoyed: But what do they care ... they have trampled my ability to sell my units on the resale market when they dropped the ROFR and of course they are not able to sell it either ..  

Beverley


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## Latravel

I think it's really important to save judgement of the new system until we see what it includes.  You may really like it and knowing all the amazing people on TUG, they'll find a way to figure out all the tricks!


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## Beverley

I really hope you are right. 

Although, I have not seen that in other systems that changed over.  Original points based systems seem to remain happy.  However, they purchased that way.  And what may start out not too bad, may not stay that way as an earlier poster suggests.  What controls are there on the inventory??  I will admit I do not want to change as I like what I have and how it works. 

As I mentioned I also do not trust what and /or how a points based system would work in the timeshare owners' interest.  In addition, Marriott's secrecy about a new system that is rumored to start in June does not head in a direction that would build any trust.  Marriott should be disclosing their plans with considerable lead time, not keeping this "great" new prospect behind such closed doors.  

I do realize that they may not be able to say anything until they have it worked out, however, if they can not communicate at the very least six months ahead of time, then they are not ready to fairly start anything new.  Rather it sounds like a new system will be foisted upon owners with out giving them enough time to really think it and understand it before it is in effect. 

Beverley


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## JimIg23

Will the poeple who bought direct also have to pay to "buy in" to the new point system?  Lets say it is cheaper than for resale owners, but will still cost money.  Will those here who bought direct pay, lets say half of what resalers would need to pay, join?


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## timeos2

*Can't be obligated if you can't dispose of it*



kjd said:


> All examples usually result in little or no equity when a customer is finished with the usage.   Who buys a Bentley when one costs $225,000?  Not many people.  Folks should not be criticized here for taking the value of usage approach when a residual value or profit was never part of their original purchase decision..



If that was the model then a strong case could be made for selling use values only. But since they do loosely tie it to the concept of real estate by providing a deed there is that residual value, "leave it to your heirs to enjoy" floated. Plus when the seat license ends, the golf membership expires or the car lease is over there is no more obligation on the buyers part (OK, there may be a one time balance due on a car lease).  

With a deeded timeshare there is a never ending obligation just as though the buyer purchased a whole condominium or house.  There has to be a mechanism to end that obligation in some fashion without trashing the buyers credit. If the resale value has been killed by the original seller that leaves the buyer with no way out. So saying that they sell only the usage with no implied residual value is an inescapable money pit for a potential buyer. Who would buy if they understood that to be the end game?


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## m61376

JimIg23 said:


> Will the poeple who bought direct also have to pay to "buy in" to the new point system?  Lets say it is cheaper than for resale owners, but will still cost money.  Will those here who bought direct pay, lets say half of what resalers would need to pay, join?



I think it will depend on how they define "low cost" and how the program works. Who knows, there may be an introductory period to get people on board where they offer it for free, as others have suggested. I know personally if they were to offer it free (let alone for the $5000 they were charging) for owners at Ko'Olina and the other resorts in the Asia Pacific program to join their new points program I wouldn't join at any price. I can only hope that the points program they are developing is different from the Asia Pacific program, but I fear that it will be similar. 

I also wouldn't join if, as Fletch suggested, there will be no home resort advantage (which seems to indicate a complete points program rather than an overlay program for trading). I think that will be a huge issue, since most people bought especially the better weeks for use at least some of the time, and I think will hesitate to join anything where they give up that advantage.

As to the other topic which has been discussed - I must admit I am surprised that seemingly so many people here contend they would have bought IF they knew up front that what they were buying had no residual monetary value immediately after purchase. Of course, I realize these aren't real estate purchases in the typical sense. And, just like the buyer of any expensive car recognizes that their purchase devaluates as soon as they drive off the lot, yet they buy anyway, they figure the devaluation is the on-going cost of use. However, to continue the analogy, sales of cars geared for the masses (I am excepting perhaps the high end cars which only the wealthy with lots of discretionary income buy; these are the same people who buy into the luxury travel products such as destination clubs perhaps) are higher for those cars that retain a higher residual value. So, while I know the primary value is usage, I also purchased expecting that there was some retained inherent value. 

Latravel- The reason I feel resale owners should be grandfathered is not out of a sense of anything other than fairness. Since people bought with the only limitation that they couldn't trade their unit for points, I don't think the game rules should be changed to penalize them later on. IF Marriott were to penalize resale buyers going forward (and I don't think that's good for anybody because I think plummeting resale values will be bad for the product, as discussed ad nauseum already) those buyers would know they were buying into something vastly different and would make an informed choice as to whether the difference was worth it. But current resale owners bought into a system where the only difference was the inability to trade for points, and at the time many of us made those purchases we felt that we just wouldn't get enough value out of the incentive points being offered to compensate for the price differences. 

I truly believe there was a time when buying direct made a lot of sense. Perhaps five plus years ago prices were much lower and Marriott offered lots of up front incentive points. If you received enough points to pay perhaps for a 10K trip (and maybe more) and lower prices up front buying direct was an easy decision. Getting 100K+ points for a $600 MF was a good deal too, so trading for points was a viable option. Fast forward to the past few years, when some of the initial pre-construction pricing at certain properties has now doubled, incentive points 100,000-2000,000 rather than the half million that many of you received, and MF's in excess of $1000 for the same number of points; throw in the devaluation of the points and I think many even happy direct purchasers would rethink whether it always made sense to buy directly. Some would still buy direct just because that's the way they like to buy, some wouldn't buy at all, and some would look at resales as a viable alternative.

And, while we shouldn't condemn a program before we see how it is rolled out, as the saying goes- the devil is in the details. I find it very worrisome that top salespeople are bailing out and leaving Marriott as they hear the details of the new system. If top salespeople see a problem selling the product going forward, what does that tell us? Analyzing their Asia Pacific points program and then Fletch's posts make me feel there is real cause for concern here (and I am not talking resale versus direct- I mean for everybody).

Personally, I bought where I really like to go. So using II for an occasional trade and for Getaways works for me. So regardless of how this turns out I won't lose any sleep over it. But I'd like to see Marriott do right by its owners.  For those comfortable with the wait and see attitude, spend some time perusing the Starwood Board to see what could happen. See what happens to MF's as delinquencies start to run rampant....


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## m61376

timeos2 said:


> If that was the model then a strong case could be made for selling use values only. But since they do loosely tie it to the concept of real estate by providing a deed there is that residual value, "leave it to your heirs to enjoy" floated. Plus when the seat license ends, the golf membership expires or the car lease is over there is no more obligation on the buyers part (OK, there may be a one time balance due on a car lease).
> 
> With a deeded timeshare there is a never ending obligation just as though the buyer purchased a whole condominium or house.  There has to be a mechanism to end that obligation in some fashion without trashing the buyers credit. If the resale value has been killed by the original seller that leaves the buyer with no way out. So saying that they sell only the usage with no implied residual value is an inescapable money pit for a potential buyer. Who would buy if they understood that to be the end game?



Great analysis! Although, much to my surprise, there seems to be those here that contend they would buy anyway.


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## kjd

*Suprised?*

If anyone should be surprised it's the buyers (both direct and resale) who thought they were buying a prime piece of real estate because they were given a deed.  The little piece of paper doesn't have much of a residual value in many cases.  The way most people get out from under continuous maintenance fees is to sell their timeshare for as little as $1.00.  That's how many leases used in business end.  Some other folks may go the foreclosure route by refusing to pay the annual fees and/or loan payment.

It all adds up to the same thing.  Any residual value that you manage to retain is gravy.  As far as the "who will buy if they know the truth" argument I note that DVC and others with a point system still have customers.  In fact like a car lease, DVC also tells their customers when their usage expires.  If a respected salesperson like Fletch is willing to work for DVC they must be doing just fine.  It's probably because they are telling the truth to their potential buyers.

There are some misguided folks that still believe they bought a prime real estate investment instead of a license to use.  They probably hold these beliefs because they were told that at the time of purchase.  I have to say however, that in my direct purchase experience the Marriott sales persons never pitched it to me that a timeshare was an investment.  It was always based upon the value of the usage.  That's why I have no regrets and continue to enjoy my timeshares without remorse.

Take a look at the sellers on Ebay that list their timeshares at ridiculous prices that never draw an offer.  Unfortunately, it takes some folks longer than others to realize that their original reasoning for buying a timeshare was wrong.  Maybe that's what is happening here.


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## rsackett

kjd said:


> If anyone should be surprised it's the buyers (both direct and resale) who thought they were buying a prime piece of real estate because they were given a deed.  The little piece of paper doesn't have much of a residual value in many cases.  The way most people get out from under continuous maintenance fees is to sell their timeshare for as little as $1.00.  That's how many leases used in business end.  Some other folks may go the foreclosure route by refusing to pay the annual fees and/or loan payment.
> 
> It all adds up to the same thing.  Any residual value that you manage to retain is gravy.  As far as the "who will buy if they know the truth" argument I note that DVC and others with a point system still have customers.  In fact like a car lease, DVC also tells their customers when their usage expires.  If a respected salesperson like Fletch is willing to work for DVC they must be doing just fine.  It's probably because they are telling the truth to their potential buyers.
> There are some misguided folks that still believe they bought a prime real estate investment instead of a license to use.  They probably hold these beliefs because they were told that at the time of purchase.  I have to say however, that in my direct purchase experience the Marriott sales persons never pitched it to me that a timeshare was an investment.  It was always based upon the value of the usage.  That's why I have no regrets and continue to enjoy my timeshares without remorse.
> 
> Take a look at the sellers on Ebay that list their timeshares at ridiculous prices that never draw an offer.  Unfortunately, it takes some folks longer than others to realize that their original reasoning for buying a timeshare was wrong.  Maybe that's what is happening here.




My point is if you go in assuming that the entire value in your purchase is in the use and anything else is gravy, you would be better off with a RTU like Disney.  At the end of a RTU you just walk away.  No need to sell you unit on ebay for $.  No need to pay ever larger fees for an obligation that is not worth the investment.

Ray


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## AwayWeGo

*You Are Correct, Sir.*




rsackett said:


> At the end of a RTU you just walk away.


Easiest exit strategy in all of timesharing, no ? 

Same goes for those 3-year (renewable) RTU timeshare leases at Club Trinidad & possibly others that I don't know about. 

Meanwhile, if owners still enjoy vacationing at their paid-for timeshares & the annual fees remain acceptable, there's no reason to get glum about future residual values of deeded timeshares. 

Plus, if the economy bounces back, those residually worthless timeshare deeds could even become valuable again, who knows ? 

BTW, timeshare ownership -- deeded or RTU _mox nix_ -- is _not_ prepaid vacation accommodations any way you shake it.  If I get my timeshares _el cheapo_ or even _el freebo,_ I still have to pay those ongoing annual fees every year or they won't let me in when I show up for my "prepaid" timeshare vacation.  

It's those ongoing annual fees & occasional special assessments that are the real cost of timesharing.  Paying lots or paying a little or paying nothing to get one's name on the deed or the RTU lease is practically _mox nix_ when all is said & done. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## rsackett

Dave M said:


> I think you misunderstand, Ray. The focus for SueDon and for many of us - and Marriott's primary selling point - was the *value* being in the usage, with no claims made that the timeshare would appreciate in value. I didn't see any statement in SueDon's post that Marriott was selling only the usage.



Dave, I have never assumed that my timeshares would appreciate in value.  The moment I buy a car I assume that if I sell it, it will sell for less than I pay for it.  However I do not buy a car with the assumption that anything I can sell it for is gravy. 

Many here say they think anyone who looked at their timeshare purchase as an "investment" were miss-informed.  I agree if by investment it is assumed a positive return.  

However I do look at all my purchases with an informal eye to cost vs benefit.  When I make any major purchase, timeshares included, I think about what I will get for what I put in.  Whit an "investment" like a timeshare I assume a fair amount of risk, that does not mean that when someone makes a change that changes the residual value of my property that I do not care.  I do not consider any value above ZERO of my timeshares to be gravy.

I have heard several people on this board that they make their purchase of a timeshare for the value of use only, and ANYTHING they receive at the eventual sale is gravy.  If that is truly how a purchase a RTU would be a better choice.

To me there is a BIG difference in assuming a timeshare will appreciate in value, and not caring about residual value of a purchase.

My first timeshare purchase was direct from Marriott at Horizon in Orlando, I later rescinded.   The salesman did say that by purchase should not be looked at as an investment and that if I was to sell it the next day, like a car it would not sell for as much as I paid.  In the next breath he showed how the amount Marriott sells the week for has gone up over the last few years, and how it was going up again very soon, implying that a gain in selling price would lead to a increase in equity.  I have beed to several TS presentations and a salesman has never stated the if I buy I should assume that my value in purchasing was entirely in use and I should think of anything I get at time of sale of "gravy".  

Ray


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## Latravel

I think regardless of what we each expected as a rate of return on our purchase, Marriott made their stance very clear at time of purchase. Sales staff were very clear by stating there is no implied value other than a "lifetime of vacations" and time spent with the family.  In addition, they made us sign that we understood these points.  

So, it really doesn't matter what we each expect when we sell, this is the reality.


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## GregT

More speculation:  if Marriott institutes a pure points-based program with no home resort advantage, and deposits its remaining unsold inventory into the "points pool", it is possible that instead of destroying the value of the previously-sold deeded timeshares.

I would think that the more desirable properties/seasons won't see the same level of price deterioration (if any) because, as an example, if you want to go to MOC, you'll likely never get in using points, and therefore need to own the deeded unit.

By comparison, Ko Olina could be easier to get into (using points) since there currently exists unsold capacity that will be made available to a points program.  However, I can't see resale prices deteriorating for either property as someone who wants to visit Ko Olina routinely will need the deed.

This is a very interesting thread (and we've hit just about everything relevant in timeshares!!!  Resale vs. Direct, possible Marriott points system, Wyndham VIP, RCI lawsuit, Perry, Marriott's greed vs. benevolence, Starwood's changes, MFs as true cost of ownership......go TUG!!!) 

Good luck to all,

Greg


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## SueDonJ

I think where we're getting crossed up is, some of us don't equate putting a premium on usage value with an automatic depreciating zero dollar value of our initial financial investment.  Like I've said, I don't expect that we'd have to give our weeks away for a pittance if we put them on the resale market, but neither do I expect that we would get what we paid for them.  And as I posted way back somewhere in this thread, I also don't agree with some of you that IF Marriott implements a new points system with higher initiation fees for resale than direct purchases, then the resale values of all Marriott timeshares will be decimated to the extent you expect.  Some, sure, but not the catastrophic losses you're guesstimating.

Ray, I did say that "we'd be better off thinking we'd never see our upfront money again..." but that was a worst-case scenario which we adopted after browsing the resale market for some established older Marriott resorts.  Perhaps I didn't explain myself very well, but our thinking at the time we purchased wasn't that the worst-case was a given, only that the resale market at the time confirmed what we'd been told - that Marriott doesn't offer any protections to prevent the worst-case scenario.  It isn't that we don't care about our investments, it's that we expect the financial risks we took with them are worth the usage rewards. 

But that brings me to, what is in a resale deed that's not in a developer-direct deed which makes you resale buyers think that you *have a right* to expect any dollar value return?  We all have deeds that confer exactly the same things to us - a share of a property with usage according to the terms and conditions of the governing docs, and those governing docs make it crystal clear that your Marriott timeshare is not a financial investment.  Sure, resale buyers might stand to lose less money on the resale market because their initial dollar investment was probably less than a direct buyer's, but that's the only difference.  Especially in this economy, if we're talking about prime weeks that were puchased to use, pretty much nobody's initial dollar investment is going to be protected in the depreciating external resale market.

Is it that we're simply looking at things differently, that some of us are putting more emphasis on usage than the perpetuity benefits of a deed?  Maybe that's it.  I'm not sure that a deeded timeshare is any more valuable than an RTU, to be honest.  (Unless somehow the contracts of a resort are dissolved and the property footprint is sold for eighty-seventeen trillion dollars - but then we'd all be winners!   )  An RTU like DVC does appeal to me more for one reason - I would prefer to not have to worry about passing on an annual financial burden to our children.  But Marriott didn't have an RTU option for Hilton Head at the time we bought.  

And one last thing, hopefully!, about how the value of a timeshare might be explained differently (and incorrectly) in a sales presentation.  We bought SurfWatch during the development phase and were shown how the future pricing structure would increase as different phases of the property were completed.  But there again, it wasn't presented to us as our investment would appreciate that much, but rather as why there may be a cost benefit to purchase sooner rather than later.  And, once more the presentation materials and governing docs did not support an assertion of investment appreciation; in fact it was made clear that future development and/or the associated increasing prices were not guaranteed.

I'm not that naive (not anymore, anyway) - I know that some Marriott salespersons present the product incorrectly.  I am on exactly the same page as the rest of you when you say that is wrong and hurts the product.  But I also think Buyer Beware should come into play at some point, and all Marriott owners should make themselves aware of what the product actually is!  It's apparent to me that there are as many resale buyers as direct buyers who don't know enough about what they've purchased, and have some unrealistic expectations of a protected investment.


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## littlestar

tidefan said:


> Disney is a bit of a different animal though.  Most of their units are directly on park properties.  As such, Disney has a vested interest in not letting these units go for dirt cheap as that would undercut their hotel business.
> 
> I do agree that as far as timesharing goes, they are a pretty good operation, IMHO.



I agree. Disney DVC is a totally different animal than a Marriott timeshare simply because of the parks. When I bought DVC it was "should I buy or should I still pay cash to Disney for onsite moderate and deluxe hotels?"  My comparison on whether to buy was strictly Disney's cash rates on their on-property resorts. 

You can't compare Marriott timeshares with DVC park resorts. What I base the value of my DVC points on is the Disney resort hotel prices. Marriott does not have a theme park on-site experience that drives their timeshare prices - weeks or points, it just doesn't matter.  What Marriott offers is a nice consistent quality condo experience at their various locations - not an immersive Disney resort/park experience. DVC/Disney is unique and in my mind a niche product.


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## m61376

Sue- I don't know if your last comment was directed at me, but I certainly didn't have any expectations of my purchases being a protected investment. Even at resale prices (which for premium properties are still substantial) the expectation is that the inherent value will fluctuate with the market (and very loosely with the real estate market perhaps). The primary value is in usage. However, my expectation also is that there would be some inherent value (regardless of how the unit was purchased) and that Marriott would act in such a manner as to not sabotage the inherent value (and, in reality, direct buyers will suffer more should they ever decide to sell if Marriott does decimate the resale market). And, while I was never promised investment returns in the typical sense, I did hear about how the properties keep on selling for more (implying appreciating value) despite all their clauses making buyers acknowledge that there were no implied promises. In Aruba salespeople last year were even using a timeshare moratorium as an excuse to buy, rationalizing to buyers that  all the values were sure to increase because of it. So at least some salespeople have more than inferred that there was also an investment aspect, although I concur that a knowledgeable buyer shouldn't be looking at any such purchase as an investment opportunity. So, while perhaps looking at a timeshare purchase as an investment may be a little naive, expecting it to retain some inherent value is, in my opinion, at least a purchase consideration for many, if not most, people.

In fact, a few years back there was a Tug formula suggested for helping people figure out whether or not making a purchase was a sound choice, and one of the criteria was residual value. If you were to put zero in the residual value column it would be hard to justify many purchases, although some people would buy just not to have to be bothered with renting or similar reasoning.

If you need an example as to what can make even formerly expensive timeshares essentially worthless, just peruse the Starwood Board. I am fearful that Marriott will be going down a similar road. Once people perceive that there is little to no inherent value left, it becomes easier to walk away from any obligations associated with the property- ie:MF's. When people simply walk away everyone suffers with skyrocketing MF's. That's what's happening with Starwood and that can happen here if too many people find little to no value in the new plan.

The other issue which pertains to MF's is IF Marriott totally adopts a point program for those that wish to join (as in their Asia Pacific points program and as Fletch indicated that they were anticipating doing)- what happens to the MF's? In the AP program the MF's depended upon the number of points owned (so Bronze owners would get less points but also pay lower MF's). I am wondering how that all equalizes, esp. since there will be weeks owners and points owners at every resort theoretically. Admittedly, I have only a basic understanding of how the points programs work, but I am concerned that the changes may wreck havoc with MF's


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## dioxide45

m61376 said:


> The other issue which pertains to MF's is IF Marriott totally adopts a point program for those that wish to join (as in their Asia Pacific points program and as Fletch indicated that they were anticipating doing)- what happens to the MF's? In the AP program the MF's depended upon the number of points owned (so Bronze owners would get less points but also pay lower MF's). I am wondering how that all equalizes, esp. since there will be weeks owners and points owners at every resort theoretically. Admittedly, I have only a basic understanding of how the points programs work, but I am concerned that the changes may wreck havoc with MF's



If they implement this, how they handle MF could impact a lot of people in a lot of ways and may even deter many from buying in. Currently at their resorts (except FL) the MF+T is the same for all seasons. So if they go to a MF$/point system, it will mean increased MF for people who own high seasons and lower fees for low seasons.

If a resort currently has a $1MM budget and then it has 1MM points allocated to it. Those people who were paying equal amounts of MF will not be equal any more. If a plat week is worth 1000 points, and a gold worth 600, then it means what everyone was paying before was somewhere in between. If they only lowered the fees for the low seasons, then the resort would be short on budget. If they only increase the fees for high seasons, then there would be a surplus.

I see Marriott moving to something more of an overlay program that is only used for exchanges. They won't drastically change the status quo. Assign a point value to each resort/season/view. This will only be used for exchanging. This would mean a platinum owner will pay a lower per point MF than a silver season owner since they have more points but pay the same MF.


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## kjd

There's certainly nothing wrong with a little gravy in anyone's life but I think that the DVC or RTU approach is a very good one.  It's clear that you are paying for usage with DVC.  I'm not sure that you can completely walk away after the end of the contract but I'll confess a lack of knowledge about these arrangements.  I seem to recall language in the Marriott sales agreement to the effect that the buyer should not assume that there is any inherent ownership value and that no residual value is implied.  I'm sure most of us signed on to that.  Maybe someone could expand on that.

While the idea of a point system or a DVC-like system might be a better approach for some individuals you can't escape the fact that it's the brand that's important to most folks.  Regardless of what kind of ownership system it may have.  An example is that I considered DVC an excellent product and I liked their reservation system but I purchased from Marriott.  

What I didn't like about DVC for our situation was: 

1.  not enough locations where we wanted to vacation, 

2.  didn't like some DVC locations being within theme parks, 

3.  wanted more options of ownership with access to MRP and, 

4.  wanted more emphasis on adult vacations.  Somehow we have passed the point of being interested in the mouse and Snow-white. 

It all gets back to the TUG sage advice to buy a timeshare where you want to vacation most of the time.  So we did.  Maybe DVC will eventually build something in Las Vegas but the idea of it wouldn't seem to mesh with their corporate branding.  My point is that I think that most new purchasers will buy the brand and location first before considering an ownership system's advantages or disadvantages.  I don't think it's a good idea to do otherwise.


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## TheTimeTraveler

It's interesting to read people's thoughts on this subject, and I hope the Marriott Corporation is taking notes.   The popularity of this subject may eventually exceed the long running Aruba complaint thread!

All I can add is that we know what we have now........ and the new product may or may not be better.

Is Marriott willing to take that gamble at our expense?   After all, it will be all of us in essence who end up paying for it.

As long as the product is enhanced, an no one gets hurts in the process (financially or otherwise) then it may be worthwhile 

And, then again it may not 

I think we'll just have to wait and see!


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## Pit

SueDonJ said:


> But that brings me to, what is in a resale deed that's not in a developer-direct deed which makes you resale buyers think that you *have a right* to expect any dollar value return?  We all have deeds that confer exactly the same things to us - a share of a property with usage according to the terms and conditions of the governing docs, and those governing docs make it crystal clear that your Marriott timeshare is not a financial investment.  Sure, resale buyers might stand to lose less money on the resale market because their initial dollar investment was probably less than a direct buyer's, but that's the only difference.  Especially in this economy, if we're talking about prime weeks that were puchased to use, pretty much nobody's initial dollar investment is going to be protected in the depreciating external resale market.



I don't think anyone expects a guaranteed return on any real-estate investment. Likewise, they do not expect their management company to deliberately devalue their investment, just because they can.

None of the governing docs I've read say anything about investment value. The language you're referring to is most likely in the Contract of Sale you signed with Marriott. A resale buyer does not enter into a sales contract with Marriott.


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## Twinkstarr

dioxide45 said:


> I see Marriott moving to something more of an overlay program that is only used for exchanges. They won't drastically change the status quo. Assign a point value to each resort/season/view. This will only be used for exchanging. This would mean a platinum owner will pay a lower per point MF than a silver season owner since they have more points but pay the same MF.



That's how I see this playing out. Somewhat like the Hyatt system.


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## m61376

Twinkstarr said:


> That's how I see this playing out. Somewhat like the Hyatt system.



Which is what I would have thought it would be like- retaining home resort usage (including booking preference) and points for exchange purposes. However, two things have me wondering- first, that's not how they implemented it in the Asia Pacific program, which I'm guessing was partially a small scale trial and would likely become part of an integrated system. The other, which sort of goes hand in hand with the Asia pacific program, is what Fletch posted.


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## Venter

littlestar said:


> I agree. Disney DVC is a totally different animal than a Marriott timeshare simply because of the parks. When I bought DVC it was "should I buy or should I still pay cash to Disney for onsite moderate and deluxe hotels?"  My comparison on whether to buy was strictly Disney's cash rates on their on-property resorts.
> 
> You can't compare Marriott timeshares with DVC park resorts. What I base the value of my DVC points on is the Disney resort hotel prices. Marriott does not have a theme park on-site experience that drives their timeshare prices - weeks or points, it just doesn't matter.  What Marriott offers is a nice consistent quality condo experience at their various locations - not an immersive Disney resort/park experience. DVC/Disney is unique and in my mind a niche product.



Just out of interest or ignorance - I think I read somewhere that Marriott was planning resorts with the Ritz brand name but also linking up with Nickleodeon for something like a theme park like resort.  Did I have my wires crossed at the time?


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## Twinkstarr

m61376 said:


> Which is what I would have thought it would be like- retaining home resort usage (including booking preference) and points for exchange purposes. However, two things have me wondering- first, that's not how they implemented it in the Asia Pacific program, which I'm guessing was partially a small scale trial and would likely become part of an integrated system. The other, which sort of goes hand in hand with the Asia pacific program, is what Fletch posted.



DH laughs about us Starwood owners being "up on the barricades" with our changes! 
I can't imagine Marriott doing such a large change with the US/Caribbean/Europe system. It won't be pretty, when you have those plat.  owners not having a home resort priority whether they bought resale or direct!

But when I did talk to Marriott about buying direct, I did get some inventory numbers and boy some resorts have a ton of silver or lower weeks available. By going to points, you could convert those and sell them to owners who needed a few more points(ie gold season owner who want to get a platinum week somewhere). And maybe that's what it is about.


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## m61376

Twinkstarr said:


> DH laughs about us Starwood owners being "up on the barricades" with our changes!
> I can't imagine Marriott doing such a large change with the US/Caribbean/Europe system. It won't be pretty, when you have those plat.  owners not having a home resort priority whether they bought resale or direct!
> 
> But when I did talk to Marriott about buying direct, I did get some inventory numbers and boy some resorts have a ton of silver or lower weeks available. By going to points, you could convert those and sell them to owners who needed a few more points(ie gold season owner who want to get a platinum week somewhere). And maybe that's what it is about.



Interesting thought. But there would have to be inventory for all those people who may have bought essentially to combine purchases to use. For it to work, one would have to make the assumption that an equal number of people were buying to combine as were Plat. owners willing to split and get more time; otherwise, there won't be enough Plat. weeks for anyone to book. But you may be right- it is a way of hiding the fact that outside of Flexchange many Bronze weeks are of limited value to most people, esp. in light of ever increasing MF's. Of course, IF MF's remain the same for all seasons, then someone using Gold + Bronze or Silver points to get the equivalent of Plat. points would be paying 2 MF's to do so. IF it works like in the Asia Pacific program, though, you'd pay a set MF per point regardless of where you owned, so MF's are spread across the board. Thus, the Hawaii owner would probably stand to win here and the owners of resorts with lower MF's would likely lose, since the fees would be spread across the board IF there was no real home ownership.

The repercussions of such as system could be quite scary. I wonder how many people here would sign onto a system even for free that worked in such a fashion. Moreover, I wonder how the percentage of people who would favor such a system are skewed wrt ownership (Plat. versus Gold, etc.). Would people be willing to give up their home resort advantage and would they prefer MF's based on the number of points owned?

On one hand, it has the advantage of offering ultimate flexibility, esp. as travel needs change over time. On the other, inventory is no longer controlled, so at certain locations the demand for certain periods may make booking a nightmare.

I know if I had to give up hone resort priority to join I wouldn't, regardless of the cost to join. I wonder how Marriott would calculate MF's under two totally different ownership scenarios.


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## SueDonJ

Pit said:


> I don't think anyone expects a guaranteed return on any real-estate investment. Likewise, they do not expect their management company to deliberately devalue their investment, just because they can.



But there we're getting back to the perspective argument that's been a part of this discussion - is Marriott considering a higher initiation fee for resale buyers in the rumored exchange plan it may implement in order to deliberately penalize resale buyers, or because it is a way for them to generate increased revenues while lessening the burden of their direct buyers?  As well, will the rumored exchange plan actually decimate all resale values to the extent speculated by some? 



Pit said:


> None of the governing docs I've read say anything about investment value. The language you're referring to is most likely in the Contract of Sale you signed with Marriott. A resale buyer does not enter into a sales contract with Marriott.



There's a provision in the Contract for Purchase and it's an item covered in the Ownership Assurance Checklist amendment to that contract; of course a resale buyer doesn't have that same contract.

However, as has been pointed out, the governing docs apply to a resale purchase and should be available to resale buyers from either the seller or Owner Services.  Here and in other threads on TUG direct buyers have copied relevant statements from the docs.  In case you missed any of those posts, one from SurfWatch's Description of the Timesharing Plan follows - there are others as well throughout the Timesharing Declaration and Management Contract.



> Purchaser should purchase a time sharing interest as a vacation experience and for his or her personal use and enjoyment.  Purchaser should not purchase a time sharing interest as an investment for profit upon its rental or resale.


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## Twinkstarr

m61376 said:


> Interesting thought. But there would have to be inventory for all those people who may have bought essentially to combine purchases to use. For it to work, one would have to make the assumption that an equal number of people were buying to combine as were Plat. owners willing to split and get more time; otherwise, there won't be enough Plat. weeks for anyone to book. But you may be right- it is a way of hiding the fact that outside of Flexchange many Bronze weeks are of limited value to most people, esp. in light of ever increasing MF's. Of course, IF MF's remain the same for all seasons, then someone using Gold + Bronze or Silver points to get the equivalent of Plat. points would be paying 2 MF's to do so. IF it works like in the Asia Pacific program, though, you'd pay a set MF per point regardless of where you owned, so MF's are spread across the board. Thus, the Hawaii owner would probably stand to win here and the owners of resorts with lower MF's would likely lose, since the fees would be spread across the board IF there was no real home ownership.
> 
> The repercussions of such as system could be quite scary. I wonder how many people here would sign onto a system even for free that worked in such a fashion. Moreover, I wonder how the percentage of people who would favor such a system are skewed wrt ownership (Plat. versus Gold, etc.). Would people be willing to give up their home resort advantage and would they prefer MF's based on the number of points owned?
> 
> On one hand, it has the advantage of offering ultimate flexibility, esp. as travel needs change over time. On the other, inventory is no longer controlled, so at certain locations the demand for certain periods may make booking a nightmare.
> 
> I know if I had to give up hone resort priority to join I wouldn't, regardless of the cost to join. I wonder how Marriott would calculate MF's under two totally different ownership scenarios.




I can't see Platinum owners in HHI, MB, FL, UT, Spain or the caribbean would be willing to give up home resort priority. 

Now it might be different for NCV or Oceana Palms(which also has a huge plat season, first time I have seen week 47 in a platinum season!). 

Might make sense for HI owners with high fees and the 1-50 season.


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## m61376

Sue- that language merely insulates Marriott from any responsibility as to future fluctuations in value. Similar language is found on stock offerings- but would you buy an IPO if you expected it to be worthless in the future? I think I can speak for virtually everybody and answer no to that question. Similarly, even though Marriott touts the purchase for vacation benefits, the language doesn't infer that there won't be any residual value. Experience has shown people that there was residual value, and I think most people expect that some value will be retained should they ever wish or need to sell. I also think that most people do not expect Marriott to institute rules which might cause any retained value to plummet. I just don't see how that is in any owner's best interests, regardless of how they initially purchased. 

Maybe you don't care what your units may be worth, but since life has a way of throwing curves once in awhile, I think most people like to feel that they have inherent value.


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## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> But that brings me to, what is in a resale deed that's not in a developer-direct deed which makes you resale buyers think that you *have a right* to expect any dollar value return?



Susan - I quoted you but my response applies to quite a few who raise the issue of valuation and rates of return.

It doesn't matter much whether you call it a "financial investment" or a "usage right" or "investment in luxury". What maters is that, in my opinion, the vast majority of buyers buy a timeshare because they think it will save them in costs versus rentals, or because they can get great trades.

I like to thik of it in these simple terms:

Resale Value of TS = Value from owning versus renting + Value from exchange options.

The first component (Value from owning versus renting) comes from the fact that MFs are (typically) lower than rental costs of comparble accomodations. So you benefit from using, or potentially renting. Technically, this should also account for opportunity cost of the initial investment. 

The second component (Value from exchange options) comes from the ability of an owner to "trade up", whether it's desireable locations with high rental costs or 2 for 1 trades (using lockoffs) into preferred seasons. 

Now, using this "model" you can think of what hapens to the resale value of a timeshare if some underlying factor changes. For example:


If everything stays constant forever, the resale value should remain constant - that may or may not be the default assumption for most people. If I sell my timeshare in 10 years, all the parameters are the same in perpetuity so the price I sell should be the same as the price I bought it for. For an RTU timeshare, the years you have left to reap the benefits decreases, so the price is expected to decrease over time.


If MFs go up more than rental costs for comparable accomodations, the benefit of owning versus renting decreases so the resale value of the timeshare drops. This is the reality of owning with Starwood, Marriott and other "brand names" which typically increase MFs at rates higher than CPI. In Marriott's defense, they have been much better than Starwood on this front especially in this most recent MF cycle. But this is the main reason why resale values drift down over time...


If the economy recovers and rental costs of comparable accomodations go up, but our MFs increase by smaller amounts (or -wishful thinking- maybe stay flat or go down) then the benefit of owning versus renting increases, so resale values should increase.


If II removes the 24 day Marriott priority, exchanges become more competitive, so this negatively affects the "Value from exchange options" component and resale values will go down.

Even though it's simple and doesn't capture everything, personally I find this a useful way to think about things...

As for the difference in cost between retail and resale, I attribute that primarily to the need of the developer to recover their marketing costs... This is pretty evident in a system like Hilton where there is no difference in usage between retail and resale. It's similar to why timeshares sold resale via brokers typically have higher asking prices... sellers are trying to pass on the commission to the buyers.


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## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> In case you missed any of those posts, one from SurfWatch's Description of the Timesharing Plan follows - there are others as well throughout the Timesharing Declaration and Management Contract.
> 
> Quote:
> Purchaser should purchase a time sharing interest as a vacation experience and for his or her personal use and enjoyment. Purchaser should not purchase a time sharing interest as an investment for profit upon its rental or resale.



The prospectus of any mutual fund has similar disclosures - this doesn't mean you don't invest in it with the intent to make money.

While I don't expect a timeshare to necessarily appreciate I certainly don't expect it to "go to zero" (unless it's an RTU). If the assumption should be that resale values do go to zero even for a deeded purchase, let salespeople say that in a presentation and let people do their math accordingly...


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## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> The prospectus of any mutual fund has similar disclosures - this doesn't mean you don't invest in it with the intent to make money.
> 
> While I don't expect a timeshare to necessarily appreciate I certainly don't expect it to "go to zero" (unless it's an RTU). If the assumption should be that resale values do go to zero even for a deeded purchase, let salespeople say that in a presentation and let people do their math accordingly...



This has to be the last time because I honestly cannot think of a way to say any of this any more clearly:

Our Marriott rep sold our units to us without any need to embellish the product or offer illusions of investment protections.  It was represented as a vacation lifestyle that appealed to us, with obligations set forth in the governing docs and deed.

The governing docs' provisions for any purchase protect Marriott, not the owners, in the event that a buyer does not realize a return on investment.

*I have never said that I expect the dollar resale values of our purchases to be zero.*  Geeeeze, how much more clearly can it be said?!  The fact that Marriott is not charged with protecting our dollar investment does not equate to its value being zero.  *The idea of a zero dollar value that has been discussed in this thread is coming from the folks who think the rumored exchange system will decimate all resale values to zero; it's NOT coming from developer owners who have simply pointed out that none of us has a bestowed right to expect a return on our initial investments.*  Gah, my head is spinning.


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## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> ... I see Marriott moving to something more of an overlay program that is only used for exchanges. They won't drastically change the status quo. Assign a point value to each resort/season/view. This will only be used for exchanging. This would mean a platinum owner will pay a lower per point MF than a silver season owner since they have more points but pay the same MF.



This is the internal exchange system that I am really hoping they will implement.  Or at least, it's one that I would seriously consider workable and maybe perfect for our family.

Beyond that, we're having to make too many assumptions in order to say if one way or another or another could work.  The one thing I am sure of, is that the brainiacs on TUG will be (once more) worth their weight in gold when/if the time comes to analyze an actual new product.


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## Dave M

Well stated, Susan! I concur.

There are many, many decisions we make in life where economics are not the highest priority. 

As just one simple example, for some people, buying the car of their dreams is more important than how much the car costs and what the future value might be. Similarly, for some of us here, we bought the vacation(s) of our dreams, without much consideration for what the future value might be - even though we knew there would likely be some future value.

Just because we did it that mindset doesn't make it wrong and doesn't mean that we "should have purchased an RTU", any more than the car buyer should have bought a different car (that wasn't first choice) that might have had a higher expected resale value or lower operating cost.


----------



## jimf41

Dave,
So you agree with my decision to buy the Audi A4 convertible in 2006 even though it's only worth 1/3 of what I paid for it and its out of warrantee and Audi gets $550 for an oil change?


----------



## timeos2

*Spend to get what you enjoy is a legitimate way to go*



Dave M said:


> There are many, many decisions we make in life where economics are not the highest priority.
> 
> As just one simple example, for some people, buying the car of their dreams is more important than how much the car costs and what the future value might be. Similarly, for some of us here, we bought the vacation(s) of our dreams, without much consideration for what the future value might be - even though we knew there would likely be some future value.
> 
> Just because we did it that mindset doesn't make it wrong and doesn't mean that we "should have purchased an RTU", any more than the car buyer should have bought a different car (that wasn't first choice) that might have had a higher expected resale value or lower operating cost.



While I tend to be a strong proponent of resale as it usually is the best value I see resale values in a never ending free fall due to oversupply - it was well underway prior to the economic collapse - which got accelerated when the otherwise strong real estate market took its plunge.  But I'm equally sold on the idea of owning timeshare - preferably deeded - rather than renting or trading to obtain what I want to use. With the incredible unknowns of annual fees/special assessments that on the surface seems at odds. 

That's where Dave's point comes in.  I have bought what I like, where I like and, unexpectedly, went even farther to become part of the Association Board in two cases to help steer the direction of some of my resorts.  I found early on that whatever trading I did decide to do - again NEVER as my primary reason for buying - was much more efficient and returned far better value in points than week for week trades.  Again the cost to join those points systems (I now belong to 3 different ones) wasn't steep but offered a great return on cost.  Week for week exchange is too much of an unknown crap shoot and too much like the hassles of renting to be viable to me.  Points are more like a hotel reservation - call or log in, see what you have to spend, see what is available, make your choices and be done with the knowledge you'll get exactly what you expect. Simple. Clean Cheap. 

The same idea applies to all my ownerships - weeks or points. I bought them because I wanted to use them and want to stay at places I know I like. Trying to rent them would have meant the added real possibility of not getting those exact resorts, unit sizes or dates that I can be sure to get as an owner.   So if it costs me a few hundred extra to know I'll get what I want instead of being disappointed it is money well spent. 

I certainly hope that as I sell off the ownerships at some time they will bring in a few dollars - the more the better of course!  But if they simply go to a new owner that will take over the fees and enjoy them I'd be happy. We already got our value out in use as many here have also stated. So I ask to be treated as any other owner would be as a resale buyer and for the Associations to hold down fees as best they can without compromising the resort quality and features we bought in for.  The games of always trying to sell more, build walls between owners based on things that have zero meaning to owners are nonsense. 

Other than the fact that someone may have paid more or less than you, and they pay the annual fees, is it in any way important if they bought resale or retail? Of course not. It is sales blather and nothing else. That type of nonsense, along with the blatant attempts to undermine resale values, infuriates me. It exposes that the Developers who practice it know they are hoodwinking buyers at the least and in the worst cases outright stealing from them.  I can tell you without a doubt that no owner controlled Board / Association sits down and says "That fee is late/on time - but they are a resale buyer so send them another bill/bonus/nasty gram". An owner is an owner who pays what they owe and get use of what they bought or they don't. Nothing else matters.  

Marriott (or anyone else) that wants to develop a better exchange system that is fair and can make a case for its value should do so. But to artificially create tiers of owners and pit them against each other, hanging on to management by edict after they should have owners in charge and the other well known moves simply to make more money are signs of poorly run and insecure organizations. If they were doing the job and offering true value the units/system would sell themselves without deception and if they were good managers they would be asked to operate resorts, not threatened with expulsion.  

The closest we have to that model may be Disney who is upfront with all they do, how they control it due to the RTU and yet have loyal and happy owners. It can be done. We also see it in some independent management companies that are nearly universally respected by owners.  We have yet to see any of the "big names" non-RTU's accomplish that, again with Disney as close as we seem to have overall.

I don't mind paying for the resorts I want, the fees truly necessary to operate and maintain them and for competent management that answers to the Association/Boards.

I have and will continue to fight and rail against developers who fail/refuse to properly turn over control to the owners, hang on to resort management they clearly can't handle while charging outrageous fees and that create roadblocks to resale of the very product they touted  They deserve to be exposed and in many cases removed. 

So far Marriott is on the fence over the last parts. If they insist on corporate profit over the owners they have gone the Wastegate route to ruin. If they unveil a reasonably priced, optional exchange system with no distinction on how you buy but properly based on what you own they might yet manage to be the second Disney and give us hope that not every big guy exists only for profiteering off a loyal base. Only time will tell.


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## Pit

SueDonJ said:


> But there we're getting back to the perspective argument that's been a part of this discussion - is Marriott considering a higher initiation fee for resale buyers in the rumored exchange plan it may implement in order to deliberately penalize resale buyers, or because it is a way for them to generate increased revenues while lessening the burden of their direct buyers?  As well, will the rumored exchange plan actually decimate all resale values to the extent speculated by some?



Clearly, they wish to differentiate the retail product by penalizing resale buyers. Otherwise, they would charge the same for all owners, or charge nothing at all.

The rumored exchange plan will most certainly impact resale prices. How much of an impact depends on how much they choose to penalize resales, and how well the program is received by owners. If owners are uninterested, and the program flops, it may have little impact. If Fletch is correct and they penalize resales with a steep fee to join, then all units may be devalued, independent of how you purchased. 

Just because it wasn't pitched to you as an investment, you seem to suggest that owners shouldn't care (or at least shouldn't complain) about these efforts to destroy their resale value. I disagree.


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## rsackett

SueDonJ said:


> ...Ray, I did say that "we'd be better off thinking we'd never see our upfront money again..." but that was a worst-case scenario which we adopted after browsing the resale market for some established older Marriott resorts.  Perhaps I didn't explain myself very well, but our thinking at the time we purchased wasn't that the worst-case was a given, only that the resale market at the time confirmed what we'd been told - that Marriott doesn't offer any protections to prevent the worst-case scenario.  It isn't that we don't care about our investments, it's that we expect the financial risks we took with them are worth the usage rewards.....



Sue,

Thanks for the expanation, I understand now, and I am glad you are still happy with your purchases.  I am still happy with mine as well.  I had misunderstood what you and some others said and interpited it as meaning that you always concidered the resale value to be Zero and did not care if changes in the Marriott system resulted in a drastic loss of resale value.

Ray



Dave M said:


> Well stated, Susan! I concur.
> 
> There are many, many decisions we make in life where economics are not the highest priority.
> 
> As just one simple example, for some people, buying the car of their dreams is more important than how much the car costs and what the future value might be. Similarly, for some of us here, we bought the vacation(s) of our dreams, without much consideration for what the future value might be - even though we knew there would likely be some future value.
> 
> Just because we did it that mindset doesn't make it wrong and doesn't mean that we "should have purchased an RTU", any more than the car buyer should have bought a different car (that wasn't first choice) that might have had a higher expected resale value or lower operating cost.




Dave,

I never ment to imply that you had made a wrong decision.  The reason that I brought up RTU was if I was going to buy a TS that had a zero resale value I would rather buy a RTU so I would not have to try to sell a TS that had zero value.  A car that has deprciated to zero I can take to a scrap yard and be done with it.  Realestate that is viued as having no value but has ongoing obligations would be much harder to dispose of.

Again sorry for the confusion.

Ray


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## lovearuba

*Marriott is not stupid are they?*



Pit said:


> Clearly, they wish to differentiate the retail product by penalizing resale buyers. Otherwise, they would charge the same for all owners, or charge nothing at all.
> 
> The rumored exchange plan will most certainly impact resale prices. How much of an impact depends on how much they choose to penalize resales, and how well the program is received by owners. If owners are uninterested, and the program flops, it may have little impact. If Fletch is correct and they penalize resales with a steep fee to join, then all units may be devalued, independent of how you purchased.
> 
> Just because it wasn't pitched to you as an investment, you seem to suggest that owners shouldn't care (or at least shouldn't complain) about these efforts to destroy their resale value. I disagree.


 
I doubt very much if Marriott would develop a system that punishes the majority of the people they want to join. That would be --the resale owners at their resorts. It would be difficult for them to get enough units to make their new proposed point system worthwhile if the resale units are not in that inventory. Marriott will not penalize those owners because they need them.  Its a dollar and cents proposition.  You cant get as big as Marriott is by making really stupid decisions.  They are reading this site and posting to it as they always do, no one can monitor which posts belong to them and which ones don't so you can speculate all you want and your opinions are being monitored so Marriott can finetune their system. There is no way they will create a system that is prohibitively expensive for resale owners to join.  They need the inventory. They don't care about anything but the bottom line.


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## SueDonJ

Pit said:


> Clearly, they wish to differentiate the retail product by penalizing resale buyers. Otherwise, they would charge the same for all owners, or charge nothing at all.
> 
> The rumored exchange plan will most certainly impact resale prices. How much of an impact depends on how much they choose to penalize resales, and how well the program is received by owners. If owners are uninterested, and the program flops, it may have little impact. If Fletch is correct and they penalize resales with a steep fee to join, then all units may be devalued, independent of how you purchased.



It's not a given that a rumored exchange plan will BE implemented at all, nevermind what the terms of such a plan would entail.  Nothing at all about what Marriott will do, or why, is clear.

My opinion is that it's being considered as a revenue-producing venture for Marriott, and that it is in Marriott's best interest to present it to owners in such a way that the majority of the ownership base will be enticed to join.  The only other thing that I think can be confidently assumed is that Marriott will protect the owners' perceived values only to the extent that Marriott's 10% cut of management fees does not suffer unduly.  Beyond those two things, I can't begin to imagine what the plan will look like or if it will decimate all resale values to any certain extent. 



Pit said:


> Just because it wasn't pitched to you as an investment, you seem to suggest that owners shouldn't care (or at least shouldn't complain) about these efforts to destroy their resale value. I disagree.



You should disagree.  I would, too, with anyone who says all owners shouldn't care about a depreciating resale value.  If you did hear that from someone, it wasn't me who said it.

For one thing, again, I don't think that an internal exchange system will destroy resale values, except to the extent that a resale purchaser may have to adjust his offer to include an initiation fee.  The example I gave before is of a $6K resale offer and a $1K initiation fee - there I could see the seller having to accept $5K.  That's not a destroyed resale market.

Another thing is, it's important to remember how this discussion evolved and why certain things have been brought into it.  "Inherent value" has been used as a point in one of the repeated arguments here against Marriott decimating resale values (which, again, isn't a given IMO) - the reason we direct buyers have brought up the non-investment provisions is to disprove that point.  That's it.  From there, though, a few folks have made assumptions about how we direct buyers interpret those non-investment provisions.  That's why I can't seem to let this go, because words are being attributed to me that I've never said/wrote.

Gah, I wish I could say things the way some Tug posters do, clearly and concisely with as few words as possible.  (My dad always told me I didn't know how to tell time without writing a book.    )  I guess simply, it's important to respond to the words that other folks actually say, and not the meaning we might be unfairly putting to their words.


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## scrapngen

jimf41 said:


> Dave,
> So you agree with my decision to buy the Audi A4 convertible in 2006 even though it's only worth 1/3 of what I paid for it and its out of warrantee and Audi gets $550 for an oil change?



I TOTALLY agree with the Audi purchase!! and the reference to how we choose to spend money on TS's...

After owning an A4 and currently a proud owner of a 2001 All-road and a 2008 A3, it's all about choices


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## Pit

lovearuba said:


> I doubt very much if Marriott would develop a system that punishes the majority of the people they want to join. That would be --the resale owners at their resorts. It would be difficult for them to get enough units to make their new proposed point system worthwhile if the resale units are not in that inventory. Marriott will not penalize those owners because they need them.  Its a dollar and cents proposition.  You cant get as big as Marriott is by making really stupid decisions.  They are reading this site and posting to it as they always do, no one can monitor which posts belong to them and which ones don't so you can speculate all you want and your opinions are being monitored so Marriott can finetune their system. There is no way they will create a system that is prohibitively expensive for resale owners to join.  They need the inventory. They don't care about anything but the bottom line.




You may be right, or not. The same statements could have been said about Starwood. Yet, most resale owners at SVO have no opportunity to participate in their internal exchange, not at any price. And all new resorts are being sold as Voluntary, which precludes future resales from joining the internal exchange. If this is so stupid, how did Starwood get so big?

Our resident, former insider says that few resales will join due to the cost. You have better information?



lovearuba said:


> They are reading this site and posting to it as they always do, no one can monitor which posts belong to them and which ones don't



Is this a confession?


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## lovearuba

*I had to laugh at that*



Pit said:


> You may be right, or not. The same statements could have been said about Starwood. Yet, most resale owners at SVO have no opportunity to participate in their internal exchange, not at any price. And all new resorts are being sold as Voluntary, which precludes future resales from joining the internal exchange. If this is so stupid, how did Starwood get so big?
> 
> Our resident, former insider says that few resales will join due to the cost. You have better information?
> 
> 
> 
> Is this a confession?


 
I have to say you are the first person that hinted that I might work for Marriott, you havent read the Aruba ocean club post:ignore:


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## Pit

SueDonJ said:


> You should disagree.  I would, too, with anyone who says all owners shouldn't care about a depreciating resale value.  If you did hear that from someone, it wasn't me who said it.





SueDonJ said:


> For one thing, again, I don't think that an internal exchange system will destroy resale values, except to the extent that a resale purchaser may have to adjust his offer to include an initiation fee.  The example I gave before is of a $6K resale offer and a $1K initiation fee - there I could see the seller having to accept $5K.  That's not a destroyed resale market.



In your first paragraph, you disclaim the suggestion that owners shouldn't care about Marriott's errosion of resale values. Then, in the very next paragraph, you state that a devaluation is ok -- even gave an example of it. It seems you want it both ways.


----------



## Pit

lovearuba said:


> I have to say you are the first person that hinted that I might work for Marriott, you havent read the Aruba ocean club post:ignore:



I know. I've read it.


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## SueDonJ

Pit said:


> ... Just because it wasn't pitched to you as an investment, you seem to suggest that owners shouldn't care (or at least shouldn't complain) about these efforts to *destroy* their resale value. I disagree.





SueDonJ said:


> ... You should disagree.  I would, too, with anyone who says all owners shouldn't care about a depreciating resale value.  If you did hear that from someone, it wasn't me who said it.
> 
> For one thing, again, I don't think that an internal exchange system will *destroy* resale values, except to the extent that a resale purchaser may have to adjust his offer to include an initiation fee.  The example I gave before is of a $6K resale offer and a $1K initiation fee - there I could see the seller having to accept $5K.  That's not a destroyed resale market. ...





Pit said:


> In your first paragraph, you disclaim the suggestion that owners shouldn't care about Marriott's errosion of resale values. Then, in the very next paragraph, you state that a devaluation is ok -- even gave an example of it. It seems you want it both ways.



Recognizing and caring about a depreciating resale market doesn't automatically mean that every depreciation is akin to a "destroyed" resale market, which is how you presented it.  A depreciating resale market is and has been for quite some time the norm with timeshares; a destroyed resale market is what some folks assume will occur with the rumored internal exchange system if initiation fees are higher for resales.


----------



## Pit

SueDonJ said:


> Recognizing and caring about a depreciating resale market doesn't automatically mean that every depreciation is akin to a "destroyed" resale market, which is how you presented it.  A depreciating resale market is and has been for quite some time the norm with timeshares; a destroyed resale market is what some folks assume will occur with the rumored internal exchange system if initiation fees are higher for resales.



Ok, "errode" is a better word choice than "destroy."

Let's differentiate between external market forces, and the intentional efforts of developers to errode resale values. I'm talking about devaluation, not depreciation.

In the example you gave, the owner receives $5K instead of $6K. Guess where the missing $1K goes -- out of the owner's pocket into Marriott's income statement. The higher the entry fee, the greater the devaluation that impacts every owner, retail or resale.


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## jlf58

resale owners are NOT the majority of people and if they didn't charge more to resale owners, they would tick off the people who bought from the developer. They will have no problem deciding which class they need to be loyal to.  



lovearuba said:


> I doubt very much if Marriott would develop a system that punishes the majority of the people they want to join. There is no way they will create a system that is prohibitively expensive for resale owners to join.  They need the inventory. They don't care about anything but the bottom line.


----------



## SueDonJ

Pit said:


> Ok, "errode" is a better word choice than "destroy."
> 
> Let's differentiate between external market forces, and the intentional efforts of developers to errode resale values. I'm talking about devaluation, not depreciation.
> 
> In the example you gave, the owner receives $5K instead of $6K. Guess where the missing $1K goes -- out of the owner's pocket into Marriott's income statement. The higher the entry fee, the greater the devaluation that impacts every owner, retail or resale.



Agreed.  But (you knew that was coming, right?) if we assume that Marriott is considering rolling out an internal exchange system in order to generate revenue, which I do, then initiation fees are going to be a major component of that revenue.  (If the program is rolled out) whether or not resales will be charged a higher fee isn't clear yet, but it can be confidently assumed that  developer sales will not be the only sales subject to an initiation fee.  With a direct buy, though, the fee can be rolled into the developer price, while with a resale it's probably going to be assumed by the seller.  Is there another way?

{edit}  Fletch just snuck in there ahead of me - maybe it is clear that resales will be charged more?


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## jlf58

This is my educated guess. new sales will have the fee included, owners who buy another week will get thier weeks grandfathered, owners who just want to upgrade thier weeks will pay about $500 per week. My guess would be resale owners, more like $1500. 





SueDonJ said:


> Agreed.  But (you knew that was coming, right?) if we assume that Marriott is considering rolling out an internal exchange system in order to generate revenue, which I do, then initiation fees are going to be a major component of that revenue.  (If the program is rolled out) whether or not resales will be charged a higher fee isn't clear yet, but it can be confidently assumed that  developer sales will not be the only sales subject to an initiation fee.  With a direct buy, though, the fee can be rolled into the developer price, while with a resale it's probably going to be assumed by the seller.  Is there another way?
> 
> {edit}  Fletch just snuck in there ahead of me - maybe it is clear that resales will be charged more?


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## SueDonJ

Fletch said:


> This is my educated guess. new sales will have the fee included, owners who buy another week will get thier weeks grandfathered, owners who just want to upgrade thier weeks will pay about $500 per week. My guess would be resale owners, more like $1500.



Hmmmm.  Every time you post I hear Bonnie Raitt in my head -  "... give 'em sumpin' to tawk about ..."

So, do you mean future resales, or current owners of former resales?


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## Pit

SueDonJ said:


> while with a resale it's probably going to be assumed by the seller



I think we're saying the same thing. This system will devalue resales, including resales of retail purchases.


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## AwayWeGo

*The Value Of Intangibles & Exclusivity.*




timeos2 said:


> Other than the fact that someone may have paid more or less than you, and they pay the annual fees, is it in any way important if they bought resale or retail? Of course not. It is sales blather and nothing else.


During 1 of the many TUG-BBS rehashes of ROFR, 1 of the ROFR fans who came round, eventually acknowledging that ROFR really does not keep resale values from going "too low" after all, still claimed to favor ROFR because it meant not having to rub shoulders in the pool or hobnob in the clubhouse, etc., with anybody who got there by buying cheap.  

The ROFR fan felt secure in the knowledge that even if previous owners sold cheap, nobody but the timeshare company could buy cheap. 

By me that's _mox nix,_ but the ROFR fan admitted it was important to have assurance that no other regular owners could buy in at prices too much less than the full-freight buyers paid. 

I filed that factoid in the _Suspicions Confirmed_ department. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> This has to be the last time because I honestly cannot think of a way to say any of this any more clearly:
> 
> Our Marriott rep sold our units to us without any need to embellish the product or offer illusions of investment protections.  It was represented as a vacation lifestyle that appealed to us, with obligations set forth in the governing docs and deed.
> 
> The governing docs' provisions for any purchase protect Marriott, not the owners, in the event that a buyer does not realize a return on investment.
> 
> *I have never said that I expect the dollar resale values of our purchases to be zero.*  Geeeeze, how much more clearly can it be said?!  The fact that Marriott is not charged with protecting our dollar investment does not equate to its value being zero.  *The idea of a zero dollar value that has been discussed in this thread is coming from the folks who think the rumored exchange system will decimate all resale values to zero; it's NOT coming from developer owners who have simply pointed out that none of us has a bestowed right to expect a return on our initial investments.*  Gah, my head is spinning.



However, I think it can be said that both resale and developer buyers would equally be upset if Marriott took steps that caused resale value to plummet to near zero, regardless of what one was told or not told during their sales presentation. Regardless of what was promised, losing value in anything through devaluation doesn't make anyone happy.


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## Latravel

Fletch said:


> resale owners are NOT the majority of people and if they didn't charge more to resale owners, they would tick off the people who bought from the developer. They will have no problem deciding which class they need to be loyal to.



Gosh, i've been saying this forever!!!!  Resale purchasers are just a little blimp on the Marriott radar.  This is the group who wants to spend the least on a purchase and thinks with their heads, not emotions.  This is NOT the group any luxury sales organization will target!

Their business decisions are not meant to PUNISH any group of consumer.  They are developing new products that will encourage sales.  In this development process, they will target those who have a history of spending $30K, $50K or greater, more than once.  This isn't done out of "good will" or loyalty...this is the group that supports the timeshare division and they are coming up with new ways to get this group to spend more/again.  Wouldn't you do the same?

If their new model means they generate lots of money for the division, but Mary in NJ won't get all of the $8K she spent on her timeshare when she sells, well, thats the cost of doing business and it's an easy decision for them.  Their shareholders demand these kinds of decisions.  To think that the group who spends the least is entitled to something (protection from devaluation, program discount) is being naive and a little narrow minded.  Look at the greater picture.


----------



## m61376

Latravel said:


> Gosh, i've been saying this forever!!!!  Resale purchasers are just a little blimp on the Marriott radar.  This is the group who wants to spend the least on a purchase and thinks with their heads, not emotions.  This is NOT the group any luxury sales organization will target!
> 
> Their business decisions are not meant to PUNISH any group of consumer.  They are developing new products that will encourage sales.  In this development process, they will target those who have a history of spending $30K, $50K or greater, more than once.  This isn't done out of "good will" or loyalty...this is the group that supports the timeshare division and they are coming up with new ways to get this group to spend more/again.  Wouldn't you do the same?
> 
> If their new model means they generate lots of money for the division, but Mary in NJ won't get all of the $8K she spent on her timeshare when she sells, well, thats the cost of doing business and it's an easy decision for them.  Their shareholders demand these kinds of decisions.  To think that the group who spends the least is entitled to something (protection from devaluation, program discount) is being naive and a little narrow minded.  Look at the greater picture.



IF resale buyers were only resale owners then it might make sense for Marriott to dismiss them as an important corporate concern. What you (and perhaps even Fletch, although I respect his opinion greatly) miss in your logic and statements is that many, perhaps even most, resale owners also own one or more developer weeks. Many bought resale because that better suited their needs at the time. HOWEVER, I have said this before but I think it is worth underscoring- ALL owners, whether or not they have bought all their units from the developer or one or more resale, are Marriott customers. They have decided to enter into an on-going relationship with Marriott- they pay thousands of dollars in MF's on an on-going basis, spend money at their properties, and many (even resale owners) have developed a brand loyalty. As you commented, when Marriott begins to further develop its product they will want a happy consumer base to sell to. I believe resale owners are part of that "group that supports the timeshare division;" again, many have already bought through the developer and all candidates for future direct purchases.

Admittedly, there are those resale buyers who have only and will only buy resale, but I think the majority of resale buyers would buy direct if the right opportunity came along. Many formerly direct buyers have felt that resale purchases made more sense to them over the past few years because Marriott wasn't offering enough up front incentives and the pricing was too high. Offer the 300-500K up front points and perhaps a little more realistic pricing and I think many more people would go the developer route; convenience of purchase and wanting to buy into the next new resort will win out if the dollar differential isn't too big.

I may be wrong, but I don't think the majority of resale owners are only bargain hunters in general. My guess is that most people who are shelling out thousands of dollars in MF's and taking multiple weeks of vacation every year have discretionary income. Many probably have nice cars and nice homes. Many, if not most, have the discretionary income to be a developer customer if Marriott introduces their next property right. Many have before, and if not antagonized, may likely buy that way again. While I bought resale, I know I would have bought direct under the right circumstances, as many of you have in the past. I wasn't willing to pay 15K for 150K points and for the privilege of trading a unit for points which didn't make sense to me with MF's in excess of $1000, but I know I could have and would have bought direct if the incentive and pricing were right.

To address your second paragraph- it is not Mary in NJ that bought her unit resale for 8K that stands to lose the most if Marriott punishes the resale market. It is the developer buyer who bought that unit for 25 or 30K who suddenly finds that his/her needs have changed and finds the value of their purchase decimated by a company that has set out to destroy the inherent value of their property. So everyone loses, except perhaps Marriott. Over the long run, does that make for a happy and loyal customer base?

I think as Marriott develops their new program (which may very well undergo changes from what was posted, if my source was correct in that they are far from certain even about releasing it [which may or may not be the case, of course]) resales will need to be considered in two groups- current resale owners and future resale buyers. Current resale owners already have made their purchase, so their benefit to Marriott is only as an audience for future purchases; they are also valued as supporting the brand, paying MF's, perhaps owning one or more direct purchases as well, and spending money at Marriott properties. I still maintain that if Marriott penalizes this group they have only the thousand here and there from those owners that opt into the new program as a "reward" for doing so, but it would incur a cost of perhaps alienating a significant portion of owners (although only 7% of sales are resales, what is the percentage of resale owners, since many resale owners are direct purchasers as well?).

Whether or not direct purchasers think that resale buyers should receive the same benefits is not the issue here, nor should it be. The fact is that current resale owners bought into a system where they were told that they would enjoy the same ownership rights and privileges as all other owners, except that they couldn't trade for points. Those who felt the point option wasn't worth the extra money saved some bucks and bought resale. And, while only the right of unit use is delineated in the ownership documents, everyone- direct and resale- bought in with the understanding that there was an exchange system which could change over time, and given the way it was sold every purchaser had the natural expectation that all owners would be treated equally wrt their unit usage (reserving at their home resort or exchanging). It is human nature to expect rights, once given, to be retained- and that's why I think it is only equitable that Marriott continue to treat all current owners the same wrt unit usage (and, I know the 13 month rule has been discussed ad nauseum, but again- right or wrong- at least it was applied across the board and, as Dave pointed out in another post, was in the original documents of most, if not all, resorts).

Future resale buyers is a different entity. Obviously, creating a schism between developer and resale purchasers and benefits makes the developer product more attractive, so I can see that this is a viable business decision. OR- they can take the high road- like DVC, for example- and just make a better product that retains its value just because the product is perceived as being so good. Keep the value of resales up and the price difference becomes minimal. Throw in some up front incentives and people will buy developer IF they aren't saving tens of thousands of dollars by buying resale. In essence, that's what DVC has done. And, yes, one can argue that they have the parks- but they also have non-park properties. They wouldn't be embarking on their project at Ko'Olina and going head to head with Marriott if they didn't think their business model could support it. 

I think many people, when considering such a purchase, consider more that just the bottom line. Convenience is a big factor too. So if Marriott worked to sustain the value of their properties it would be a win-win all around. People would buy direct if the price difference was small because direct purchases are easier and perceived to be safer transaction, there is the perception of an intangible benefit, and excitement is created when you feel you own something that retains its value- and that promotes sales. Again, Marriott can learn from the DVC model, and they can learn what not to do from Starwood. That would be the best way to get any of their owners to spend more again.

One last food for thought- I think most buyers- whether or not they feel there is retained value- once the purchase is made don't actively consider the monetary value of their ownership but the vacation and family value; the intangible value is what ownership is all about for most people. That's what makes us pay our MF's and spend money at Marriott's properties ($$'s spent at their restaurants, booking activities through their concierges, playing in their casinos, spa treatments, marketplace purchases, etc.). The real cost of ownership is the MF's, which over the years can exceed the purchase price (regardless of how the purchase was made). That's the biggest issue in my book. Alienate the owners and you start getting large scale defaults on MF's- and guess who gets to make up the difference? THAT'S everyone's problem (and, again, look next door to Starwood's issues if you think that's an over-dramatization).


----------



## jlf58

MVCI really doesn't spend that much time thinking about this and you are way over thinking this 

First off, of my maybe 1000 developer sale owners, about 2% also owned resales so deveoper owners are loyal. 
Would it suprised you if I told you most developer purchasers are aware of the resale market ? They are and still buy direct .... The sales people are very good  

This is what MVCI thinks :
We will let resale owners buy in at an additional cost that way we can tell them we still want them but they need to pay a bit more since they bought resale.
We will tell developer purchasers we charged resale owners more since they bought resale.

It's just this simple so lets keep it that simple !! 






m61376 said:


> IF resale buyers were only resale owners then it might make sense for Marriott to dismiss them as an important corporate concern. What you (and perhaps even Fletch, although I respect his opinion greatly) miss in your logic and statements is that many, perhaps even most, resale owners also own one or more developer weeks. Many bought resale because that better suited their needs at the time. HOWEVER, I have said this before but I think it is worth underscoring- ALL owners, whether or not they have bought all their units from the developer or one or more resale, are Marriott customers. They have decided to enter into an on-going relationship with Marriott- they pay thousands of dollars in MF's on an on-going basis, spend money at their properties, and many (even resale owners) have developed a brand loyalty. As you commented, when Marriott begins to further develop its product they will want a happy consumer base to sell to. I believe resale owners are part of that "group that supports the timeshare division;" again, many have already bought through the developer and all candidates for future direct purchases.
> 
> Admittedly, there are those resale buyers who have only and will only buy resale, but I think the majority of resale buyers would buy direct if the right opportunity came along. Many formerly direct buyers have felt that resale purchases made more sense to them over the past few years because Marriott wasn't offering enough up front incentives and the pricing was too high. Offer the 300-500K up front points and perhaps a little more realistic pricing and I think many more people would go the developer route; convenience of purchase and wanting to buy into the next new resort will win out if the dollar differential isn't too big.
> 
> I may be wrong, but I don't think the majority of resale owners are only bargain hunters in general. My guess is that most people who are shelling out thousands of dollars in MF's and taking multiple weeks of vacation every year have discretionary income. Many probably have nice cars and nice homes. Many, if not most, have the discretionary income to be a developer customer if Marriott introduces their next property right. Many have before, and if not antagonized, may likely buy that way again. While I bought resale, I know I would have bought direct under the right circumstances, as many of you have in the past. I wasn't willing to pay 15K for 150K points and for the privilege of trading a unit for points which didn't make sense to me with MF's in excess of $1000, but I know I could have and would have bought direct if the incentive and pricing were right.
> 
> To address your second paragraph- it is not Mary in NJ that bought her unit resale for 8K that stands to lose the most if Marriott punishes the resale market. It is the developer buyer who bought that unit for 25 or 30K who suddenly finds that his/her needs have changed and finds the value of their purchase decimated by a company that has set out to destroy the inherent value of their property. So everyone loses, except perhaps Marriott. Over the long run, does that make for a happy and loyal customer base?
> 
> I think as Marriott develops their new program (which may very well undergo changes from what was posted, if my source was correct in that they are far from certain even about releasing it [which may or may not be the case, of course]) resales will need to be considered in two groups- current resale owners and future resale buyers. Current resale owners already have made their purchase, so their benefit to Marriott is only as an audience for future purchases; they are also valued as supporting the brand, paying MF's, perhaps owning one or more direct purchases as well, and spending money at Marriott properties. I still maintain that if Marriott penalizes this group they have only the thousand here and there from those owners that opt into the new program as a "reward" for doing so, but it would incur a cost of perhaps alienating a significant portion of owners (although only 7% of sales are resales, what is the percentage of resale owners, since many resale owners are direct purchasers as well?).
> 
> Whether or not direct purchasers think that resale buyers should receive the same benefits is not the issue here, nor should it be. The fact is that current resale owners bought into a system where they were told that they would enjoy the same ownership rights and privileges as all other owners, except that they couldn't trade for points. Those who felt the point option wasn't worth the extra money saved some bucks and bought resale. And, while only the right of unit use is delineated in the ownership documents, everyone- direct and resale- bought in with the understanding that there was an exchange system which could change over time, and given the way it was sold every purchaser had the natural expectation that all owners would be treated equally wrt their unit usage (reserving at their home resort or exchanging). It is human nature to expect rights, once given, to be retained- and that's why I think it is only equitable that Marriott continue to treat all current owners the same wrt unit usage (and, I know the 13 month rule has been discussed ad nauseum, but again- right or wrong- at least it was applied across the board and, as Dave pointed out in another post, was in the original documents of most, if not all, resorts).
> 
> Future resale buyers is a different entity. Obviously, creating a schism between developer and resale purchasers and benefits makes the developer product more attractive, so I can see that this is a viable business decision. OR- they can take the high road- like DVC, for example- and just make a better product that retains its value just because the product is perceived as being so good. Keep the value of resales up and the price difference becomes minimal. Throw in some up front incentives and people will buy developer IF they aren't saving tens of thousands of dollars by buying resale. In essence, that's what DVC has done. And, yes, one can argue that they have the parks- but they also have non-park properties. They wouldn't be embarking on their project at Ko'Olina and going head to head with Marriott if they didn't think their business model could support it.
> 
> I think many people, when considering such a purchase, consider more that just the bottom line. Convenience is a big factor too. So if Marriott worked to sustain the value of their properties it would be a win-win all around. People would buy direct if the price difference was small because direct purchases are easier and perceived to be safer transaction, there is the perception of an intangible benefit, and excitement is created when you feel you own something that retains its value- and that promotes sales. Again, Marriott can learn from the DVC model, and they can learn what not to do from Starwood. That would be the best way to get any of their owners to spend more again.
> 
> One last food for thought- I think most buyers- whether or not they feel there is retained value- once the purchase is made don't actively consider the monetary value of their ownership but the vacation and family value; the intangible value is what ownership is all about for most people. That's what makes us pay our MF's and spend money at Marriott's properties ($$'s spent at their restaurants, booking activities through their concierges, playing in their casinos, spa treatments, marketplace purchases, etc.). The real cost of ownership is the MF's, which over the years can exceed the purchase price (regardless of how the purchase was made). That's the biggest issue in my book. Alienate the owners and you start getting large scale defaults on MF's- and guess who gets to make up the difference? THAT'S everyone's problem (and, again, look next door to Starwood's issues if you think that's an over-dramatization).


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> MVCI really doesn't spend that much time thinking about this and you are way over thinking this
> 
> First off, of my maybe 1000 developer sale owners, about 2% also owned resales.
> 
> This is what MVCI thinks :
> We will let resale owners buy in at an additional cost that way we can tell them we still want them but they need to pay a bit more since they bought resale.
> We will tell developer purchasers we charged resale owners more since they bought resale.
> 
> It's just this simple so lets keep it that simple !!



Fletch,

What is your opinion on reserving and depositing for 2011 in light that there is likely to be a major change for Marriott's internal program this year?

I have a 3 bedroom MGC unit that I normally lock-off, reserve and, at a minimum deposit the 1 bedroom for exchange and will like offer up the 2 bedroom master suite on a request first basis. Typically we do this the end of Feb or the first week of March. Now with the change potentially being around the corner, I'm not sure how well this will work for 2011 exchanges.

My gut feeling is to go ahead as if nothing was going to change. We can be happy using the two bedroom master suite for a Vegas vacation. I'm also relatively certain I can locate a worthy exchange for the one bedroom lock-off, even if a Marriott internal preference became somewhat murky compared to past transactions.


----------



## JimIg23

I see the good and bad for both buying direct and resale, so either way, as long as you are happy, great.   However, I dont buy into we have to charge more to resales to make direct owners happy.  

I bought my Honda directly from Honda and pay a certain amount of money for oil changes there.  I dont see Honda charging Honda owners who bought their car resale 2 times the cost for the same oil change......  You can make an argument that this is different, but I think it is the same.


----------



## jlf58

The new program will be very sloooooow to work so I would do what you normally do 



dougp26364 said:


> Fletch,
> 
> What is your opinion on reserving and depositing for 2011 in light that there is likely to be a major change for Marriott's internal program this year?
> 
> I have a 3 bedroom MGC unit that I normally lock-off, reserve and, at a minimum deposit the 1 bedroom for exchange and will like offer up the 2 bedroom master suite on a request first basis. Typically we do this the end of Feb or the first week of March. Now with the change potentially being around the corner, I'm not sure how well this will work for 2011 exchanges.
> 
> My gut feeling is to go ahead as if nothing was going to change. We can be happy using the two bedroom master suite for a Vegas vacation. I'm also relatively certain I can locate a worthy exchange for the one bedroom lock-off, even if a Marriott internal preference became somewhat murky compared to past transactions.


----------



## Beverley

m61376 said:


> Sue- I don't know if your last comment was directed at me, but I certainly didn't have any expectations of my purchases being a protected investment. Even at resale prices (which for premium properties are still substantial) the expectation is that the inherent value will fluctuate with the market (and very loosely with the real estate market perhaps). The primary value is in usage. However, my expectation also is that there would be some inherent value (regardless of how the unit was purchased) and that Marriott would act in such a manner as to not sabotage the inherent value (and, in reality, direct buyers will suffer more should they ever decide to sell if Marriott does decimate the resale market).



I, too, did not buy thinking a timeshare would be an "investment" or that we would "make" money, however, Marriott by word and deed had been protecting resale values until last year when they stopped exercising their ROFR that they chose to build into every contract.  Tug posts have debated at length the value of the ROFR and we are seeing now what happens when there is none.  In this way, Marriott's actions have decimated any reasonable resale price.  My expectation, that was created by Marriott, was that they would not overtly destroy reasonable resales.  

Beverley :annoyed:


----------



## m61376

Fletch- I respect you tremendously, but I don't think it is as simple as you are projecting. I really think it's a lot more complex and has the potential for a lot of ramifications- both positive and negative, depending upon how it is handled. I suspect you recognize the pitfalls of the system being discussed; you've hinted that it was part of your reasoning for leaving. That, along with you co-workers' departure, speaks volumes.

And, no, I am not surprised that the majority of your buyers knew about the resale market but bought from you anyway- that's why you were a top salesperson. My Dad was a salesman, so I know how someone good at what they do can skew things  . I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that many of those resale buyers also own developer weeks though- they just may not have been dealing with someone as persuasive as you are.

Clearly Marriott is not finding this whole proposed system simple on any level, which is why while their salespeople may have been told that it was rolling out come June (and I don't doubt this is what you were told, don't get me wrong) others have been told that the final product, if any is actually introduced in the future, basically needs a lot of revision. While I am not implying that the resale-direct purchase issue is a major obstacle in this process, I think it deserves more consideration than you do. Creating two groups of owners can have big ramifications (again- consider DVC and consider Starwood).

I guess time will tell which road Marriott decides to take.


----------



## Beverley

Pit said:


> I don't think anyone expects a guaranteed return on any real-estate investment. Likewise, they do not expect their management company to deliberately devalue their investment, just because they can.



BINGO!

Beverley


----------



## m61376

JimIg23 said:


> I see the good and bad for both buying direct and resale, so either way, as long as you are happy, great.   However, I dont buy into we have to charge more to resales to make direct owners happy.
> 
> I bought my Honda directly from Honda and pay a certain amount of money for oil changes there.  I dont see Honda charging Honda owners who bought their car resale 2 times the cost for the same oil change......  You can make an argument that this is different, but I think it is the same.



 I'd hate to think that any owners would take perverse pleasure in penalizing any other owner. To take it one step further- rather than feeling smug that resale owners are getting their just deserves, so to speak, they should recognize that it actually is bad for them as well, should they ever want or need to sell.

And the car analogy is a good one- once the purchase is made, the dealer doesn't- and shouldn't- care how it was bought. Ongoing maintenance still brings in money and good service maintains customer loyalty. Maybe next time you'll go to the dealer directly, because you've built up brand loyalty from happy usage and customer satisfaction over the years.


----------



## jlf58

The delay, if any, has nothing to do with resales, thats for sure. It was a simple fix, charge resale owners more money , PERIOD.
The delay, if any,  is because you are way smarter than anyone working on the changes  



m61376 said:


> Fletch- I respect you tremendously, but I don't think it is as simple as you are projecting. I really think it's a lot more complex and has the potential for a lot of ramifications- both positive and negative, depending upon how it is handled. I suspect you recognize the pitfalls of the system being discussed; you've hinted that it was part of your reasoning for leaving. That, along with you co-workers' departure, speaks volumes.
> 
> And, no, I am not surprised that the majority of your buyers knew about the resale market but bought from you anyway- that's why you were a top salesperson. My Dad was a salesman, so I know how someone good at what they do can skew things  . I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that many of those resale buyers also own developer weeks though- they just may not have been dealing with someone as persuasive as you are.
> 
> Clearly Marriott is not finding this whole proposed system simple on any level, which is why while their salespeople may have been told that it was rolling out come June (and I don't doubt this is what you were told, don't get me wrong) others have been told that the final product, if any is actually introduced in the future, basically needs a lot of revision. While I am not implying that the resale-direct purchase issue is a major obstacle in this process, I think it deserves more consideration than you do. Creating two groups of owners can have big ramifications (again- consider DVC and consider Starwood).
> 
> I guess time will tell which road Marriott decides to take.


----------



## Powerguy

If Marriott can succeed in increasing the value of resale weeks this entire discussion goes away. What is driving resale purchases is the large difference between the cost to buy direct and what units sell for in the resale market. 

This is what convinced me to buy resale. If the difference in a $36,000 timeshare was a few thousand dollars if would be a no-brainer. With resale prices at 50-60 percent of developer prices it was an easy decision for me. 

From my perspective the value of usage or any end value (if you sell it) were the same if you bought developer or resale so in my opinion why not get in at a lower price. 

The best interest for Marriott is to bolster ownership value (direct purchase and resale values) so the perceived “vacation investment” value is there. 

The question is what has caused this large difference in values? The economy? The large increase in timeshare retail prices? In a strong market the ROFR should have helped bolster resale prices as Marriott would not let low price resale occur and had a line of people waiting to buy the units “resale” from Marriott and full developer price.


----------



## Beverley

Fletch said:


> This is my educated guess. new sales will have the fee included, owners who buy another week will get thier weeks grandfathered, owners who just want to upgrade thier weeks will pay about $500 per week. My guess would be resale owners, more like $1500.



Fletch,

Do you think, then, that an owner with multiple weeks could pick and choose which weeks were in the points program and which were not?

Beverley


----------



## m61376

Fletch said:


> The delay, if any, has nothing to do with resales, thats for sure. It was a simple fix, charge resale owners more money , PERIOD.
> The delay, if any,  is because you are way smarter than anyone working on the changes



I certainly hope those that are working on the system are more well versed in points systems and their usage than I am. And I was not making up what I was told; while I respect the person who told me enough not to mention him by name, it was certainly a "higher up" who would be privy to such information and not a figment of my imagination.

Then again, when I look to the Asia pacific program that they came up with I am not so sure that the powers that be are "so smart" or that anything is "so simple." Being that you left at least in part because of what you felt was coming down the pike, I am not so sure anyone finds it so simple.

If resales were such a non-issue as to be simply dismissed I don't think they would bother creating a disparity between ownership categories. As Powerguy stated: "The best interest for Marriott is to bolster ownership value (direct purchase and resale values) so the perceived “vacation investment” value is there." That's what will increase direct sales going forward.


----------



## Twinkstarr

m61376 said:


> I certainly hope those that are working on the system are more well versed in points systems and their usage than I am. And I was not making up what I was told; while I respect the person who told me enough not to mention him by name, it was certainly a "higher up" who would be privy to such information and not a figment of my imagination.
> 
> Then again, when I look to the Asia pacific program that they came up with I am not so sure that the powers that be are "so smart" or that anything is "so simple." Being that you left at least in part because of what you felt was coming down the pike, I am not so sure anyone finds it so simple.
> 
> If resales were such a non-issue as to be simply dismissed I don't think they would bother creating a disparity between ownership categories. As Powerguy stated: "The best interest for Marriott is to bolster ownership value (direct purchase and resale values) so the perceived “vacation investment” value is there." That's what will increase direct sales going forward.



I think whatever happens, they'll be a long learning curve for MCVI and owners too. Going from a weeks system to points is going to be tough.

Depending on how it's set up, there's probably a banking/pooling deadline to consider, which isn't hard but just another day to concern yourself about besides the day you call in to make a reservation.


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> The new program will be very sloooooow to work so I would do what you normally do



That's pretty much how I fealt about it. We have 4 Marriott timeshare stays this year. Normally, I only attend the non-sales get together to get updates on changes. Perhaps I'll attend one of the owner update presentations somewhere later this year. I hate to do this as I feel it generally wastes a salesmans time but, it looks like it may become necessary to gather additional information to see if the new program fits our needs better than what we have now.


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## jlf58

Without a doubt. If I were a 3 or 4 week owner, I would be very careful to deicde which to convert to points. The St Thomas Platinum week that I bought for trade power, without a doubt. The Gold GV week, NO WAY ! 





Beverley said:


> Fletch,
> 
> Do you think, then, that an owner with multiple weeks could pick and choose which weeks were in the points program and which were not?
> 
> Beverley


----------



## jlf58

Why bother, just read it here on TUG  




dougp26364 said:


> That's pretty much how I fealt about it. We have 4 Marriott timeshare stays this year. Normally, I only attend the non-sales get together to get updates on changes. Perhaps I'll attend one of the owner update presentations somewhere later this year. I hate to do this as I feel it generally wastes a salesmans time but, it looks like it may become necessary to gather additional information to see if the new program fits our needs better than what we have now.


----------



## Pit

JimIg23 said:


> I see the good and bad for both buying direct and resale, so either way, as long as you are happy, great.   However, I dont buy into we have to charge more to resales to make direct owners happy.
> 
> I bought my Honda directly from Honda and pay a certain amount of money for oil changes there.  I dont see Honda charging Honda owners who bought their car resale 2 times the cost for the same oil change......  You can make an argument that this is different, but I think it is the same.



The "punish resales" logic defies me as well. That's the Starwood approach, and it doesn't go over well.


----------



## taffy19

m61376 said:


> I apologize if it any way I came across as not accepting that people of course buy for their own reasons- it really wasn't my intent. And anyone's reasons for purchasing are as good as anyone else's (that shouldn't need to be said).
> 
> I guess what I find so aggravating is that I think Marriott really has a good product, and I fear it is going to go down the same path as Starwood has. I must admit that I am surprised that timeshare buyers would shell out tens of thousands of dollars solely for the right to make reservations for a week each year (I actually thought that people elected to buy timeshares rather than destination clubs because they liked the idea of owning something- which implies an inherent value). However, as you point out, since at least most people consider the residual value, IF Marriott creates a system where resales become worthless, then I think they will have a very hard time making any sales. And that's bad for everyone.


There is another way to look at it too.  When we bought ou fixed week and unit at the Lahaina towe in Maui, renting an equivalent unit there would have been more than double the price so the savings would go to the purchase price.  This was our logic but the economy changed everything.

I would not buy a timeshare anywhere today because rentals are available everywhere and prices are about the same as maintenance fees or even cheaper.

Marriott will have to compete with the conditions today and if they want to start the new point system, they will have to make it attractive to everyone as John stated in his post earlier.

I don't believe for a minute that Marriott wants to punish anyone as many resale buyers own many weeks and they are paying maintenance fees so keep the program healthy.

We will be in Maui in a few weeks and I am very curious what we hear at the yearly update and will post it here.


----------



## jlf58

The day the dropped ROFR, I knew Marriott sales would get alot worse as it was such shallow thinking on thier part. A bean counter decided this, not a timeshare expert. So you you have a slow economy and Marriiott shoots themselves in the foot with dropping ROFR and add to that the continuing devaluation of the Marriott rewards points and I think you get the picture. The best salesman in the world can't justify buying direct from them with the costs of resales today. 



Powerguy said:


> If Marriott can succeed in increasing the value of resale weeks this entire discussion goes away. What is driving resale purchases is the large difference between the cost to buy direct and what units sell for in the resale market.


----------



## timeos2

*Options and values*



m61376 said:


> I'd hate to think that any owners would take perverse pleasure in penalizing any other owner. To take it one step further- rather than feeling smug that resale owners are getting their just deserves, so to speak, they should recognize that it actually is bad for them as well, should they ever want or need to sell.
> 
> And the car analogy is a good one- once the purchase is made, the dealer doesn't- and shouldn't- care how it was bought. Ongoing maintenance still brings in money and good service maintains customer loyalty. Maybe next time you'll go to the dealer directly, because you've built up brand loyalty from happy usage and customer satisfaction over the years.



Any new system that Marriott unveils is an option. If it costs a few dollars more to buy into, as an option, for resale buyers (although it certainly shouldn't matter) then if you saved at least those few dollars - and most likely far more - then you are still way ahead. 

The bigger question is why would anyone do business directly with any organization that takes steps to attempt to devalue what they sell you? Every buyer will eventually be a seller so no matter if today you buy retail or resale your eventual sales price has been damaged by those moves. It only makes sense to buy as low as possible for the underlying product you desire as there is ZERO benefit to paying more. 

Much like Wyndham destroyed any possible value of direct purchase from them due to short sighted policies Marriott would seem to be on a path of existing owner devaluation should they actually roll out what Fletch has described. All for a tiny percentage of owners that are resale? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. 

By as cheaply as possible, add the options that work for you and realize that Marriott does NOTHING to help preserve value in their product.  If you still want it knowing those facts then at least you buy in informed of the guaranteed loss of value and still see it as a reasonable cost of vacationing where you want to go. It shouldn't be that way and an owner should be an owner period.  It is sad to see what was a respected company sink that low for a few bucks.


----------



## jagri

Fletch,

If a fee is paid to join the new program, would the benefits of the new program pass to the new buyer if the unit is sold, or would the buyer have to pay another fee?


----------



## jlf58

good question, not sure how they will handle that.  



jagri said:


> Fletch,
> 
> If a fee is paid to join the new program, would the benefits of the new program pass to the new buyer if the unit is sold, or would the buyer have to pay another fee?


----------



## dioxide45

jagri said:


> Fletch,
> 
> If a fee is paid to join the new program, would the benefits of the new program pass to the new buyer if the unit is sold, or would the buyer have to pay another fee?



If they did I am sure there would be a fee to transfer that privilege to the new owner. It is all about the money.


----------



## KathyPet

I am currently in escrow for my First resale purchase at St. Kitts.  I am paying 60% of Marriott's price.   I would like to have been able to get a better price but considering that there are only 88 units at St. Kitts and it has only been open for sales since 2007 the resale inventory is very limited.  
I have negotiated my way through the Marriott system since 1994 when we purchased our MMC direct.  That was followed in 97 by a 1 BR purchase at Kauai Beach Club when there on vacation (using those Marriott points).  We never went back to Kauai (too long a trip) so in 2002 we used the equity trade program to  buy a week at Barony Beach and a week at Grand Ocean (gold time) since we knew we would actually use that location.  In 2008 we sold Barony using Marriott resales and took a $8000 loss (net to us after Marriott's 40% commission) 
We gave serious consideration to purchasing direct at St. Kitts but decided to go resale for two reasons (1) Marriott not offering enough incentive points to make it worthwhile especially when I can buy 100,000 points for $1250 per year. and (2) we still have our two direct purchase weeks to trade in for points.
I don't know how Marriott will treat its resale purchasers under the new program but to be frank I really don't care.  I have always wanted a place to go to during the cold winter months and I love St. Kitts.  I do not expect to want to trade out of there but really expect to go year after year so I am a happy camper.  With our third week we now have a "extra" week that we can offer to our daughter and her new husband to take a vacation with each year.
I am hoping that our St. Kitts week will hold its value as I am convinced that sales will pick up again after the current economic situation improves.


----------



## jimf41

Among the many mistruths, mistakes and gibberish utterances by our sales rep last week the one thing he stated that I agreed with was that if you only wanted to use and not trade you were better off buying resale. I think he realized what he said didn't jive with the rest of his pitch and quickly changed the topic.

There might be other reasons to buy resale but that is definitely one of them.


----------



## taffy19

SueDonJ said:


> This is the internal exchange system that I am really hoping they will implement.  Or at least, it's one that I would seriously consider workable and maybe perfect for our family.
> 
> Beyond that, we're having to make too many assumptions in order to say if one way or another or another could work.  The one thing I am sure of, is that the brainiacs on TUG will be (once more) worth their weight in gold when/if the time comes to analyze an actual new product.



I also believe that it will be like that but when the new point system has been introduced, they will go over to a pure point system and every sale of a deed that will go through Marriott direct, will change to an RTU point system ownership.

They may even give an incentive to sell through Marriott rather than on your own as you may get a higher price than on the resale market.  It happened to us once before.


----------



## kjd

Instead  of having a suppressed feeling of guilt because you bought resale (I bought three resales and three direct) and therefore think that Marriott is out to punish you, why not look at the other side of the issue?   These are the same folks who brought you the "Florida Club".  

I'm sure there was a lot of angst when that program was being considered.  The Florida Club atrophied as a result of it's own uselessness.  It was originally conceived as a benefit for owners and was highly touted by the sales staff.  Today it's hardly mentioned except by those of us who have to pay into it.  When I bought my last Florida Club timeshare the seller gave me an apology.    

The new imagined points system (I'll believe it when I see it) could go down the same road.  Initially it will be proposed as a new innovative owner benefit but then debunked once owners figure out the empty benefits of the change.  I'm sure that if Marriott decides to offer an alternative points system it will be directed at new customers and multiple unit owners.  Their own analysis shows that.  It will have to prove itself as a benefit to all owners before it really means something.

Maybe some of the sales staff would like to punish the resale owners but no successful company would design their business plan around it.  If you bought resale--relax.  You're not that important to them.


----------



## SueDonJ

I look at the whole of Marriott ownership as, Marriott is going to charge whatever fees folks will pay.  That's how they've always done things, that's how they'll continue to do things.  Their timeshares have always been priced relative to what the market will bear - on all three developer, resale by Marriott and external resale markets - and for the most part they are higher priced among the competion.  They charge usage fees (reservation changes, exchanges, etc.) simply because they can.  If they can charge higher initiation fees in this program to resale buyers in order to generate revenue that has up until now not been available to them, why wouldn't they?

If they make an internal exchange system attractive enough to a majority of their ownership base, including owners who bought both direct and resale, then they can get away with charging initiation fees.  Whether those fees are justified will be for each individual owner to decide.  If the difference between direct and resale is only $1K, then most resale owners are still ahead of the game when this premium is tacked on to their purchase price.  After all, how many resales have there been where the difference between direct and resale is only $1K?

That's why I'm not understanding this overall doom-and-gloom attitude that Marriott will "decimate" and "destroy" the resale value of every week simply by implementing sliding initiation fees.  Sure, the resale market will be impacted so that Marriott can get a slice of that pie that they've previously not gotten, but I just don't see that it will be to the extent where we all need to panic.  Where has this panic been all this time, over the years that developer purchasers have had to accept a much more substantial devaluation between the developer and external resale markets?

It is what it is, as Bill Belichek would say.  Take a look at the specifics when/if the program is rolled out and see if it works for you.  But don't make it mean any more than it should, that's not helpful in any analytical discussion.


----------



## fraser921

*marriott new rules*

this will devalue Marriot values

Wyndham did this and prices fell 50 % or more.

The sales people cant compete with resales so they will give people that buy from marriott better access etc. So at the end of the day there will be 2 classes of owners:  _those who bought resale and those who bought from the developer._

Beware and raise _heck._


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... The fact is that current resale owners bought into a system where they were told that they would enjoy the same ownership rights and privileges as all other owners, except that they couldn't trade for points. ...



m, I have to ask since you keep bringing up this point - who told you this?  And what exactly did s/he say?  Because the fact is that no owner, direct or resale, could be correctly told that, " ... they *would* [not] enjoy ..." with respect to this particular usage option.  It is correctly explained to direct purchasers as, (paraphrased) "... *currently* only direct owners enjoy the MRP-exchange benefit but there is no guarantee the option will continue - as is or at all - in the future."

As with everything else, what's NOT directly stated in the contract or governing docs is as important as what is.  Resale buyers and developer buyers alike are always subject to Marriott implementing changes that impact their ownerships, whether positively or negatively, as long as the contracts don't prohibit such changes.  It follows that any owners are misinformed if they believe that their rights extend to their ownership never being any different than on the day it was purchased.


----------



## timeos2

*They can't change what you bought*



fraser921 said:


> this will devalue Marriot values
> 
> Wyndham did this and prices fell 50 % or more.
> 
> The sales people cant compete with resales so they will give people that buy from marriott better access etc. So at the end of the day there will be 2 classes of owners, resales with limited booking, and [some] that paid full price with better booking privleges.
> 
> Beware..



Wyndham resale owners suffer no limitations of booking as the deeded rights are the same for all. They do lack a few bonus "benefits" which, if available at a reasonable price, would be nice to have but do not represent any value when you consider the thousands of upfront dollars required to get them. Add that they are not part of any sale so they can, and are, changed at Wyndhams will and there is no loss to the resale owner. 

Should Marriott actually step over the line and try to impact rights granted in the ownership prospectus they aren't just acting badly they are breaking laws. It would no longer be a whimsical discussion here but a serious court case they wold without a doubt lose. The rights granted in the original sale are sacrosanct. Mess with those and they will find out what trouble really is. They can play with the bonus/optional features all they want. If you don't like that then don'y buy or ignore it while using your legal rights. It's an option ad nothing more.


----------



## Latravel

kjd said:


> ...Maybe some of the sales staff would like to punish the resale owners but no successful company would design their business plan around it.  If you bought resale--relax.  You're not that important to them.



I totally agree.  Some of the responses written here just makes me shake my head.  Someone who was from inside Marriott (Fletch) is directly telling you that resale puchases are not a big concern to Marriott yet people still write how Marriott is punishing them.  Like you said, relax!


----------



## SueDonJ

fraser921 said:


> this will devalue Marriot values
> 
> ...
> 
> Beware and raise hell



You know, not only does this post contain an inarguably offensive word, it is one of the most blatantly insulting posts toward direct buyers that I've ever seen in any of the TUG discussions which include a resale v. direct aspect.

I am amazed the post is still here, and I'd really like to not see it quoted in its entirety.  Thanks, all.


----------



## Latravel

m61376 said:


> ..What you (and perhaps even Fletch, although I respect his opinion greatly) miss in your logic and statements is that many, perhaps even most, resale owners also own one or more developer weeks... Many bought resale because that better suited their needs at the time... many have already bought through the developer and all candidates for future direct purchases.... I think the majority of resale buyers would buy direct if the right opportunity came along. ...many formerly direct buyers have felt that resale purchases made more sense to them... ... I don't think the majority of resale owners are only bargain hunters in general.



I don't think blanket statements apply since there is no way one could know the thinking process and purchasing habits of the entire Marriott population.  Personally, my mathematical mind can't do anything with this kind of  information, that's why I only post on the 93% vs 7% ratio which has been studied. But, it's very interesting to read different points of view.


----------



## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> I am amazed the post is still here, and I'd really like to not see it quoted in its entirety.  Thanks, all.



agree, my reaction exactly


----------



## Beverley

Fletch said:


> Without a doubt. If I were a 3 or 4 week owner, I would be very careful to deicde which to convert to points. The St Thomas Platinum week that I bought for trade power, without a doubt. The Gold GV week, NO WAY !



Fletch, thanks for your response.  

Now I am going to unveil my "stupidity" here for all to see .. .. when you say without a doubt on the St Thomas and no way on the gold GV, do you mean you would put St Thomas into the points system or the other way around?  

If yes, you would put the better property into the points system is that because you would get more points and be able to stretch the time?  I was thinking along the reverse.... putting in my weaker units (silver) into point or a unit that I would not necessarily be going to every year.  

For instance, we go to HHI every summer, I would be afraid to put my summer week into a point system and then not be able to book a week in my season.  Whereas, I have a silver HHI unit that we only use to trade for MR points or trade for other locations (sometimes back into HHI plat season) so that one I might consider going points ... 

What are your thoughts.  

Thanks.

Beverley


----------



## NWL

SueDonJ said:


> You know, not only does this post contain an inarguably offensive word, it is one of the most blatantly insulting posts toward direct buyers that I've ever seen in any of the TUG discussions which include a resale v. direct aspect.
> 
> I am amazed the post is still here, and I'd really like to not see it quoted in its entirety.  Thanks, all.





hipslo said:


> agree, my reaction exactly



I reported this post as well.  I prefer to be insulted by someone with a better vocabulary.   

Cheers!


----------



## dioxide45

There are two numbers for resale buyers. The number I have seen quoted a lot in this thread is 7%. This 7% only reflects the number of resale transactions in a year, it does not reflect the percentage of owners that bought resale. That number is undoubtedly higher.


----------



## kjd

*7% vs 93%*

Wouldn't it also be true that the number of direct buyers would be 93%?  If that ratio was a constant over a number of years then there would be 28,000 resale purchasers and 372,000 direct purchasers from Marriott.  It's based upon the often quoted 400,000 members of MVCI.

If this is so as it seems to be, it is pretty clear to me which group Marriott would concentrate their marketing efforts on.  An old saying is that "If you go duck hunting--you have to go where there are ducks".  Unless there was a big surge of resale buyers in a given year, resale buyers are still 7% of MVCI no matter what years you look at.


----------



## dioxide45

kjd said:


> Wouldn't it also be true that the number of direct buyers would be 93%?  If that ratio was a constant over a number of years then there would be 28,000 resale purchasers and 372,000 direct purchasers from Marriott.  It's based upon the often quoted 400,000 members of MVCI.



All retail buyers become retail owners in the ownership pool. All resale buyers become resale owners and take away from the existing resale owner pool. So over time, that retail owner pool gets depleeted for the sake of resale owners. At some point in time after a resort is out of active sales, all owners become resale owners.


----------



## Beverley

dioxide45 said:


> All retail buyers become retail owners in the ownership pool. All resale buyers become resale owners and take away from the existing resale owner pool. So over time, that retail owner pool gets depleeted for the sake of resale owners. At some point in time after a resort is out of active sales, all owners become resale owners.



Not necessarily as Marriott considers a buyer a direct buyer if they purchase their resale through Marriott.  We purchased two resales, however, they were bought through Marriott at Marriott's price so they are considered a developer purchase. The resorts were older Marriott properties and had been sold out of "new" weeks for years.

Beverley


----------



## JimIg23

Marriott has a point system already in Asian.  I wonder if this will be similar.  Does anyone know how that system works?


----------



## dioxide45

As 7% of buyers buy resale, this causes the resale owner base to actually increase at a rate of ~.5% more than that of the retail owner base. Those resale buyers are buying from people who previously bought retail, that means that the retail ownership base isn't growing as fast as resale owner base. At some point resale owners will outnumber retail owners.


----------



## hipslo

dioxide45 said:


> As 7% of buyers buy resale, this causes the resale owner base to actually increase at a rate of ~.5% more than that of the retail owner base. Those resale buyers are buying from people who previously bought retail, that means that the retail ownership base isn't growing as fast as resale owner base. At some point resale owners will outnumber retail owners.




once a resort is sold out why would marriott be even remotely concerned about resales?  if they want to sell the same unit yet again, and profit again on the very same unit that they have already sold, they can buy via rofr and do so.  if they choose not to do so, the resale purchase is not taking a sale away from marriott.  given that, why would those who have purchased resale at a sold out resort ever be treated differently than developer buyers?  this has never made any sense to me.


----------



## kjd

It's a small point and not worthy of much discussion but the pool of new buyers probably will not be outnumbered for a long time.  I think you are confusing a new buyer with someone who doesn't buy from Marriott.  There are always new buyers and many of them will be buying direct from Marriott.  That's because:

1.  Marriott handles resales now and will in the future
2.  If the economy expands Marriott will start offering new projects.  They just cancelled several of them
3.  In many resorts there is no such thing as a new unit buyer.  They are buying Marriott inventory built years ago.
4.  If Marriott decides that they no longer want to develop new projects they will target the resale market exclusively.  Many who bought from Marriott will list with Marriott when they sell.


----------



## dioxide45

kjd said:


> It's a small point and not worthy of much discussion but the pool of new buyers probably will not be outnumbered for a long time.  I think you are confusing a new buyer with someone who doesn't buy from Marriott.  There are always new buyers and many of them will be buying direct from Marriott.  That's because:
> 
> 1.  Marriott handles resales now and will in the future
> 2.  If the economy expands Marriott will start offering new projects.  They just cancelled several of them
> 3.  In many resorts there is no such thing as a new unit buyer.  They are buying Marriott inventory built years ago.
> 4.  If Marriott decides that they no longer want to develop new projects they will target the resale market exclusively.  Many who bought from Marriott will list with Marriott when they sell.



It is true that resales will not outnumber retail owners for a long long time. But to speak on number 1 and 4, the assumption is that these are part of the 93% number, and not considered a resale purchase. They are considered developer purchases, not resale. The truth is that the resale ownership base will always be increasing at a faster rate than retail owner base as long as there is a resale market. This will cause the breakdown of owners to not be 93/7%.


----------



## dougp26364

fraser921 said:


> this will devalue Marriot values
> 
> Wyndham did this and prices fell 50 % or more.
> 
> The sales people cant compete with resales so they will give people that buy from marriott better access etc. So at the end of the day there will be 2 classes of owners:  _those who bought resale and those who bought from the developer._
> 
> Beware and raise _heck._



Why Wyndham? Why not more like Hilton Grand Vacation Club where the only difference between resale and developer purchase is developer purchase can qualify for elite status, which doesn't amount to much.

I really think that TUG members are way overthinking this and are looking at it in the worst possible light. What happened to Marriott owners who use to say if Marriott married the number of resorts they own in great locations with HGVC's point based reservations system, they'd have an unbeatable product? Now, here we are on the possible threshold of that happening and everyone thinks Marriott is out to kill the product.


----------



## m61376

JimIg23 said:


> Marriott has a point system already in Asian.  I wonder if this will be similar.  Does anyone know how that system works?



Starbucks I believe posted the description awhile back. Frankly, I thought it was awful and most of the comments posted by others here weren't positive either. 

Doug- actually, that's why I am concerned. As they say, the devil is in the details. I was kinda shocked at the Asia Pacific points program, and the $5000 initial pricetag for joining.


----------



## dioxide45

m61376 said:


> Doug- actually, that's why I am concerned. As they say, the devil is in the details. I was kinda shocked at the Asia Pacific points program, and the $5000 initial pricetag for joining.



You know, if they have a big price tag like this on a new internal system, the timeshare presentations won't be for buying new weeks, they will be for touting the upgrade and trying to sell only that on top of what you already own. I would find it hard to believe that they could sell it for $5K without a big push at a TS presentation.


----------



## Beverley

$5000 ???? :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: 

Beverley


----------



## m61376

Here is the previous link that I was referring to for the Asia Pacific program. I believe there was another thread as well last year.

At cursory glance, it doesn't seem like even a Hawaii week owner would have enough points for a like for like trade into a high demand resort with a TDI of 120-150. Certainly Phuket Plat. week owners can't trade for similar accommodations in Hawaii.

And Beverly that's what I thought when I first saw that figure. 

If course, that may or may not be indicative of what Marriott is contemplating across  the board, but it is certainly cause for concern because that wasn't just idle speculation- that was a program that they were actively promoting.


----------



## JimIg23

m61376 said:


> Here is the previous link that I was referring to for the Asia Pacific program. I believe there was another thread as well last year.
> 
> At cursory glance, it doesn't seem like even a Hawaii week owner would have enough points for a like for like trade into a high demand resort with a TDI of 120-150. Certainly Phuket Plat. week owners can't trade for similar accommodations in Hawaii.
> 
> And Beverly that's what I thought when I first saw that figure.
> 
> If course, that may or may not be indicative of what Marriott is contemplating across  the board, but it is certainly cause for concern because that wasn't just idle speculation- that was a program that they were actively promoting.



Thanks for the link!  Read the thread.  In addition to the 5k, I think you would need to spend money taking a math class to figure out all the calculations for various weeks.  No thanks, I'll just go to CA and FL......


----------



## tidefan

dioxide45 said:


> You know, if they have a big price tag like this on a new internal system, the timeshare presentations won't be for buying new weeks, they will be for touting the upgrade and trying to sell only that on top of what you already own. I would find it hard to believe that they could sell it for $5K without a big push at a TS presentation.



This is what Diamond Resorts International (DRI) is doing.  It costs about $3,000 to join their points based system, which, for some is a winner (i.e. - High Season Weeks in HI, AZ, LV) and is a loser for others (see my shoulder season St Maarten unit).  It all depends on how they value the week at each resort...

Of course, we just continue to use our week down there every year, so it really doesn't matter to us...


----------



## DanCali

tidefan said:


> This is what Diamond Resorts International (DRI) is doing.  It costs about $3,000 to join their points based system, which, for some is a winner (i.e. - High Season Weeks in HI, AZ, LV) and is a loser for others (see my shoulder season St Maarten unit).  It all depends on how they value the week at each resort...



That's what I have been saying all along. It cannot possibly be otherwise when you don't start as a points based system... When you convert to points it is a zero sum game - half will like that they get 12 days instead of 7 in a trade to Orlando and half will hate that they get 3 days in a trade to Hawaii instead of 7. 

In the end, they will end up with around 50% (that's like 200,000) dissatisfied owners. I'm a Platinum week owner and may end up "happy" but certainly wouldn't like a system where half the owners are not... Things cannot end well that way, no matter how they spin this (still alleged) system. :annoyed: 

That is why I still hope they come to their senses and never launch it


----------



## dioxide45

m61376 said:


> At cursory glance, it doesn't seem like even a Hawaii week owner would have enough points for a like for like trade into a high demand resort with a TDI of 120-150. Certainly Phuket Plat. week owners can't trade for similar accommodations in Hawaii.



So if a Hawaii owner can't trade for a high demand week in Phuket and a Phuket owner can't trade in to a high demand week in Hawaii, who can get those weeks.  It seems that they averages out the amount of points people would get based on the season that they owned, but then did they assign higher and lower points to exchange in to different weeks within the same system? That doesn't make much sense if that is how it is working.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> Starbucks I believe posted the description awhile back. Frankly, I thought it was awful and most of the comments posted by others here weren't positive either.
> 
> Doug- actually, that's why I am concerned. As they say, the devil is in the details. I was kinda shocked at the Asia Pacific points program, and the $5000 initial pricetag for joining.



There is no sense in worrying about something that might not even happen. People worry to much IMHO. Most of what we worry about or are concerned about either never comes to pass or wasn't really what they were worried about. 

If Marriott attempts to hit owners with a $5,000 price tag to join, I predict a resounding flop that will be heard throughout the timeshare indsutry. Very few will join, owners will be mad and satisfaction will go down. I doubt that's what they do but hey, I always doubted that Toyota would have a big enough recall to ever damage their corporate image or that investment banks would make such bad investments that they took the world economy down. So anything is possible. I'm just not going to be overly concerned until they lay it out in front of me and then I can make decisions about whether or not it's a good thing or a bad thing.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> That's what I have been saying all along. It cannot possibly be otherwise when you don't start as a points based system... When you convert to points it is a zero sum game - half will like that they get 12 days instead of 7 in a trade to Orlando and half will hate that they get 3 days in a trade to Hawaii instead of 7.
> 
> In the end, they will end up with around 50% (that's like 200,000) dissatisfied owners. I'm a Platinum week owner and may end up "happy" but certainly wouldn't like a system where half the owners are not... Things cannot end well that way, no matter how they spin this (still alleged) system. :annoyed:
> 
> That is why I still hope they come to their senses and never launch it



So what the 50% that doesn't like the points system should do is just stick with the weeks based exchange system and call it good. For them, nothing is likely to change. You'll still have your week and you can still trade within the weeks based exchange system that is I.I.

But, it's ALL just speculation. What if they switch to a points based system like Hilton? All two bedroom units in a particular season have a set value. Premium views (ocean front, ocean view, garden view) or units with premium amenities (penthouse units with upgraded showers/linens/kitchens) cost more in points. Seasons also have different points values wtihin the HGVC system but, all basic 2 bedroom units have a set value. 

Everyone feels Marriott is going to fall on a sword with any change and maybe that will happen. Then again, maybe we're all just getting our knickers in a knot for no good reason at all.


----------



## DanCali

dougp26364 said:


> So what the 50% that doesn't like the points system should do is just stick with the weeks based exchange system and call it good. For them, nothing is likely to change. You'll still have your week and you can still trade within the weeks based exchange system that is I.I.



If I didn't like what I was getting with the new system I'd stick with II. In the scenario I described, the Gold/Silver/Bronze weeks that stick with II will still get their 7 days, but getting 7 days into a platinum season may be even harder than ever before if those Platinum owners go to the points based system.




dougp26364 said:


> But, it's ALL just speculation. What if they switch to a points based system like Hilton? All two bedroom units in a particular season have a set value. Premium views (ocean front, ocean view, garden view) or units with premium amenities (penthouse units with upgraded showers/linens/kitchens) cost more in points. Seasons also have different points values wtihin the HGVC system but, all basic 2 bedroom units have a set value.
> 
> Everyone feels Marriott is going to fall on a sword with any change and maybe that will happen. Then again, maybe we're all just getting our knickers in a knot for no good reason at all.



I totally agree that it's all speculation. Some people are talking like it's a foregone conclusion, but what if they don't switch at all? Arguably, Marriott benefits even from all these rumors flying around as some buyers are now afraid to touch resale units. I have yet to see anything official from Marriott in writing about this program. As far as I'm concerned, it may never even see the light of day. 

My opinion, as I've said all along, if that it is crazy to do something so radical when they already have nearly 500,000 (mostly) happy owners. If there are no more growth opportunities, they can do very well living off their well-deserved management fees at their 50 resorts. A good business should know when it's time to move on from a "growth" phase to a "cash cow" phase (the BCG Matrix idea). Any extreme changes to the system with the intent to boost short term profits may prove to have unintended consequences and be disastrous a decade from now.

But I won't lose any sleep over it, at least until an official announcement comes out...


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> If I didn't like what I was getting with the new system I'd stick with II. In the scenario I described, the Gold/Silver/Bronze weeks that stick with II will still get their 7 days, but getting 7 days into a platinum season may be even harder than ever before if those Platinum owners go to the points based system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree that it's all speculation. Some people are talking like it's a foregone conclusion, but what if they don't switch at all? Arguably, Marriott benefits even from all these rumors flying around as some buyers are now afraid to touch resale units. I have yet to see anything official from Marriott in writing about this program. As far as I'm concerned, it may never even see the light of day.
> 
> My opinion, as I've said all along, if that it is crazy to do something so radical when they already have nearly 500,000 (mostly) happy owners. If there are no more growth opportunities, they can do very well living off their well-deserved management fees at their 50 resorts. A good business should know when it's time to move on from a "growth" phase to a "cash cow" phase (the BCG Matrix idea). Any extreme changes to the system with the intent to boost short term profits may prove to have unintended consequences and be disastrous a decade from now.
> 
> But I won't lose any sleep over it, at least until an official announcement comes out...




I don't think Marriott benefits from all the rumors. I'd wager that the population of owners that are even aware off this discussion is less than 1%. 

I am very curious about what Marriott may be offering. Almost enought that i'd attend another sales presentation. I'm not really there quite yet. At least not for a March trip to Kauai. Maybe our May trip to HHI I might listen. If they still have any kind of sales office when we're in Breckenridge in June, the chances are higher. If not June then maybe when we're at Ocean Pointe in November. 

The thing is, I'm not really in any big hurry to jump into a point system with Marriott as I have no issues using my home resorts and, trading the lock-offs, even if it's for non-Marriott resorts, will still work fine for me. Now if they offer something that's along the lines of HGVC's points based reservations system and it's either no cost of very low cost to switch, I'll have increased interest in the program. If it's along the lines of what little I've read about the pacific rim system chances are I'll never change, even if the cost is very low or free to current owners. This will only be a benefit to Marriott if the system is more attractive than the system they have now. If it isn't, only new purchases will end up in the new system and it will flop long before it gets off the ground.


----------



## m61376

Doug- Well said!
And, just fyi, I know when I use the term "concerned" I am using it loosely, only when referring to the discussion at hand. This isn't anything to lose sleep over because, as you said, if it isn't attractive to most owners it isn't going to be successful anyway and II will always be a viable option, IF it ever comes to fruition.

I didn't bother wasting vacation time sitting with a salesperson recently either, because there is nothing definitive for them to reveal and, basically, what's been bandied about here and elsewhere is just a whole lot of conjecture. I have no doubt that Fletch is being forthright (I'm not implying otherwise) but even he can reveal only what has filtered down, which clearly is different from what has been filtered down to a different but I'd say at least equivalently placed source. So anything is possible at this point. The only real example of a points based system that Marriott has offered is the Asia Pacific program which we can only guess was a test run for this.

Since that's at least 6 months old at this point, any info. on how successful it's been? While owners here likely would find tons of faults with it, I wonder how the average consumer (and I don't think Tuggers represent the average timeshare owner) views it. Has it been embraced? 

I did hear that one of the reasons that Marriott has stalled was that the Ritz point program was a big problem (as in a bust), but I don't remember if that was from anyone with any credibility or just someone making an assumption.


----------



## PerryM

*Oh No - He's Baaaaccckkkk....*

I know, I know, I said I'd go to the beach the remaining week in Maui but someone sent me an eMail and I think they had a valid point:

*Marriott is a resale buyer - who are they to disparage resale buyers?*

EVERY ROFR is a resale purchase, every time they buy a unit, for whatever reason, on the resale market they become a resale buyer.

And they want to set up a caste system of "Developer Owners" Vs "Resale Owners"?

Folks this is all about corporate greed and how much money they can still wring out of your pocket - all the while acting like they are better than you are.

This was a great point I thought.

Back to the beach unless someone sends me an eMail.....


----------



## winger

Well, we paid the $3k (or roughly this much - through some developer hocus pocus upgrade+conversion+a nice grandfathering clause) or so conversion fee to buy into DRI's system two years ago - and we have been pleased with the point-based and internal system flexibility so far.  We figure that money is well spent for the next  30+ years of traveling 'flex stays' versus 'fixed 7-night weeks' (like long three-day holiday weekend stays in Tahoe (we done alot of those!), 6 nights in Sedona upcoming spring break, etc.).


----------



## DanCali

PerryM said:


> *Marriott is a resale buyer - who are they to disparage resale buyers?*
> 
> EVERY ROFR is a resale purchase, every time they buy a unit, for whatever reason, on the resale market they become a resale buyer.
> 
> And they want to set up a caste system of "Developer Owners" Vs "Resale Owners"?



But unlike any other "resale owner," Marriott can resell the resale unit at retail prices and/or rent out the unit at high prices and greater flexibility (nighly basis, 3-day cancellation policy etc). Given this, they probably wouldn't care much resale prices go off a cliff. Why spend $10K and resell for $30K when they can spend $1K and resell for $30K?


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> I know, I know, I said I'd go to the beach the remaining week in Maui but someone sent me an eMail and I think they had a valid point:
> 
> *Marriott is a resale buyer - who are they to disparage resale buyers?*
> 
> EVERY ROFR is a resale purchase, every time they buy a unit, for whatever reason, on the resale market they become a resale buyer.
> 
> And they want to set up a caste system of "Developer Owners" Vs "Resale Owners"?
> 
> Folks this is all about corporate greed and how much money they can still wring out of your pocket - all the while acting like they are better than you are.
> 
> This was a great point I thought.
> 
> Back to the beach unless someone sends me an eMail.....



Get a crackberry, Perry - then you can stay on the beach and enjoy your email at the same time!

I'm just not getting this "victim" attitude.  IF Marriott rolls out a new exchange program that has higher initiation fees for resale buyers, it will be so that Marriott can get revenue from a source that's previously not been available to them.  That's it!  So you're right, it's about corporate profits.  That's business - always has been, always will be.  It's not about punishing any certain owners.

It it were, then it could be said that Marriott has been punishing its direct buyers for years by not exercising ROFR to the extent that resale buyers were able to drive that market to substantial devaluations.  It seems it was very easy for some of you to see the other side of the coin you're flipping now, when you were able to take advantage of that devalued market that's been in effect for years.  So again, if you think you're being victimized now, where was your sympathy for the victims of Big Bad Marriott for all those years?


----------



## Stefa

SueDonJ said:


> I'm just not getting this "victim" attitude.  IF Marriott rolls out a new exchange program that has higher initiation fees for resale buyers, it will be so that Marriott can get revenue from a source that's previously not been available to them.



I agree with this.  Actually I believe that if Marriott were to do something that significantly "devalued" resales the biggest "victims" would ultimately be developer purchasers who needed to sell for some reason.    

I think the title of this thread is unfortunate because it has set a negative tone for the discussion.    The devaluation the OP was concerned about was regarding policies that Marriott would not implement such as limiting access to your home resort.


----------



## winger

Stefa said:


> I agree with this.  Actually I believe that if Marriott were to do something that significantly "devalued" resales the biggest "victims" would ultimately be developer purchasers who needed to sell for some reason.
> 
> ....


 NOT TOO FAR BEHIND THE 'BIGGEST LOSERS' column will be Marriott itself - IF _more_ developer purchase candidates have the sense to ask the following (or similar) before signing on the dotted lines and understands what 'the results' of their question means (ie. retained value of what they are about to possibly purchase): 

*"What would I expect to get in return if I were to sell my unit next year (for any reason)?  Can you provide me example(s) of recently sold units, say like one from eBay?"*


----------



## m61376

Stefa said:


> I agree with this.  Actually I believe that if Marriott were to do something that significantly "devalued" resales the biggest "victims" would ultimately be developer purchasers who needed to sell for some reason.
> 
> I think the title of this thread is unfortunate because it has set a negative tone for the discussion.    The devaluation the OP was concerned about was regarding policies that Marriott would not implement such as limiting access to your home resort.



I agree- developer purchasers would be the biggest loser IF Marriott takes that route. Ultimately, how will this affect developer sales? The market is significantly different than it was even 5 years ago. Today, virtually everyone has Internet access (at least people with the means to make substantial purchases). Just like 95% of home buyers look at multiple listing services on the web, more and more people are either versed or will be in the timeshare market. 

Whether or not Marriott touts their units as primarily a lifestyle investment, at least many people like to think that there is some retained value. If the value plummets, so might sales (although that's just speculation on my part). So, ultimately, everyone may stand to lose.

There are many other concerns wrt devaluation, besides limiting access to your home resort. There's limiting exchange opportunities, the likely limitations on like for like (size and number of days) for many trades, etc.. And I know Sue (and I'm guessing some others) feel that Marriott doesn't owe any allegiance to resale buyers, but devaluing a product that was bought under a certain set of rules is a valid concern. So, as long as we are embarking on a speculative discussion of a possible points system which may or may not ever come to fruition, I think the various topics discussed herein are pertinent.


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## SueDonJ

[deleted]  Thanks, Winger.


----------



## winger

SueDonJ said:


> But some developer purchasers have had the sense to ask exactly that question prior to buying and were still able to determine for themselves that their investment dollars would buy usage value.
> 
> Imagine!  Developer buyers with sense!  Unbelievable, isn't it?
> 
> (Yes, that's irritated sarcasm.  I'll take it back if you say that yours is sarcasm also, that you're kidding with the inference that no developer purchaser has sense.)


I just updated my wording -


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... the likely limitations on like for like (size and number of days) for many trades, etc..



"Like for like" were not words used by my sales rep for exchanges, but rather that (paraphrased) "II uses a system of rankings and filters whereby areas/resorts/#BR are considered, but because 3BR inventory is extremely limited, you may only be successful with 2BR unit exchanges."  That's been our experience, too, with every exchange.  Now if you're talking about one week always getting one week in II, yes, but on the flip side, with a points system a premium week could get more than one week.  That's not necessarily a bad thing. 



m61376 said:


> ... And I know Sue (and I'm guessing some others) feel that Marriott doesn't owe any allegiance to resale buyers, but devaluing a product that was bought under a certain set of rules is a valid concern.



If this is what you "know" from all I've ever contributed to resale v. direct discussions, then it appears you're not reading me correctly.  My thought is that Marriott considers "allegiance" to any of its owners only to the extent that its profit margins are not unduly affected, and it makes business sense to me that they will look for revenue streams wherever they can find them.  As well, Marriott has a history (13-mo res, not exercising ROFR, etc.) of devaluing its product for all existing owners - direct and resale alike.  None of us is immune.


----------



## m61376

Sue- You're being way too sensitive. Winger's post was critical of Marriott and not a dig at direct purchasers. He bought directly himself after careful consideration at the time. Just because at least some people feel that many direct buyers might hesitate to purchase if they felt that they were buying something with no inherent retail value (with a value solely in usage) by no means disparages anyone who feel that the usage value is worth shelling out 30, 40, 50 or even 80 thousand for that benefit. Everyone is entitled to place their own value on the "use" factor.


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> Sue- You're being way too sensitive. Winger's post was critical of Marriott and not a dig at direct purchasers. He bought directly himself after careful consideration at the time. Just because at least some people feel that many direct buyers might hesitate to purchase if they felt that they were buying something with no inherent retail value (with a value solely in usage) by no means disparages anyone who feel that the usage value is worth shelling out 30, 40, 50 or even 80 thousand for that benefit. Everyone is entitled to place their own value on the "use" factor.



Evidently Winger got my point, enough so that he chose to change the wording to which I objected.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> "Like for like" were not words used by my sales rep for exchanges, but rather that (paraphrased) "II uses a system of rankings and filters whereby areas/resorts/#BR are considered, but because 3BR inventory is extremely limited, you may only be successful with 2BR unit exchanges."  That's been our experience, too, with every exchange.  Now if you're talking about one week always getting one week in II, yes, but on the flip side, with a points system a premium week could get more than one week.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> If this is what you "know" from all I've ever contributed to resale v. direct discussions, then it appears you're not reading me correctly.  My thought is that Marriott considers "allegiance" to any of its owners only to the extent that its profit margins are not unduly affected, and it makes business sense to me that they will look for revenue streams wherever they can find them.  As well, Marriott has a history (13-mo res, not exercising ROFR, etc.) of devaluing its product for all existing owners - direct and resale alike.  None of us is immune.



Working backwards- as Dave posted, most (if not all) the resort documents contained wording about the 13 month rule- so most, if not all, people purchasing should have been aware of it when making their purchase decision. That is very different from changing rules/benefits after the fact. Marriott has never had 2 subsets of owners wrt usage of their property- which is why I still maintain that it is unfair for them to superimpose such a categorization., You are free to disagree- it doesn't make you right and me wrong (or vice versa, of course). I think I have read and understood your stance on this more than correctly; I think everyone here might be getting a little tired of that bantering, so let's agree to disagree.

As for the first part- yes, of course, there has always been a filtering system, and not even a Plat. premium week was guaranteed of a like for like trade. But, there was always at least the potential (subject to availability, of course) of a 2BR Platinum unit in one locale getting a 2 BR elsewhere for the same period of time (7 days). If you look at the Asia Pacific program (and I reference that only because it is a Marirott designed program that they felt was equitable and salable) some Plat. 2BR weeks will only qualify for smaller units and/or shorter time frames. So there stand the very real possibility that there will be a lot of unhappy Platinum week owners, to say nothing of Gold, Silver and Bronze week owners. In fact, if you look at the other program, even owners of premium Plat. resorts may not have enough points to trade back into peak weeks (and I am not just talking about holiday weeks- weeks with TDI's greater than 120). So that's what I referring to when I summarized it as limitations on like for like.


----------



## Stefa

m61376 said:


> There are many other concerns wrt devaluation, besides limiting access to your home resort. There's limiting exchange opportunities, the likely limitations on like for like (size and number of days) for many trades, etc..




But wouldn't those effect all owners no matter how they purchased?   The point I was trying to make is that, other than a (likely) higher buy in cost, there isn't anything known about the new system that distinguishes between develper and resale weeks.   I don't see any reason for there to be conflict between developer and resale buyers here on TUG.


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> Working backwards- as Dave posted, most (if not all) the resort documents contained wording about the 13 month rule- so most, if not all, people purchasing should have been aware of it when making their purchase decision. That is very different from changing rules/benefits after the fact. Marriott has never had 2 subsets of owners wrt usage of their property- which is why I still maintain that it is unfair for them to superimpose such a categorization., You are free to disagree- it doesn't make you right and me wrong (or vice versa, of course). I think I have read and understood your stance on this more than correctly; I think everyone here might be getting a little tired of that bantering, so let's agree to disagree.



*Now*, the governing docs for most resorts contain the 13-mo wording, yes.  But the same is not true for *when it was implemented*.  iconnections, I believe, has posted that it changed the rules/benefits of her ownership after the fact and, she believes, devalued the ownership for her and all single-week owners *at the time*.  Regardless of how/why it was done or what any of us feel about it now, I brought it into this discussion only to prove the point that Marriott does have a history of devaluing ownership for certain owners by changing rules/benefits after the fact.  That's it.  I don't see where anyone can disagree with that, if an owner who was a direct beneficiary of it has stated it to be so. 



m61376 said:


> As for the first part- yes, of course, there has always been a filtering system, and not even a Plat. premium week was guaranteed of a like for like trade. But, there was always at least the potential (subject to availability, of course) of a 2BR Platinum unit in one locale getting a 2 BR elsewhere for the same period of time (7 days). If you look at the Asia Pacific program (and I reference that only because it is a Marirott designed program that they felt was equitable and salable) some Plat. 2BR weeks will only qualify for smaller units and/or shorter time frames. So there stand the very real possibility that there will be a lot of unhappy Platinum week owners, to say nothing of Gold, Silver and Bronze week owners. In fact, if you look at the other program, even owners of premium Plat. resorts may not have enough points to trade back into peak weeks (and I am not just talking about holiday weeks- weeks with TDI's greater than 120). So that's what I referring to when I summarized it as limitations on like for like.



Again, m, I guess I'm just not getting worked up over the possibility of a points system providing less usage value if it also offers the opportunity for more, because we already are working with an II system that provides disparity.  But we'll just have to see the details of what Marriott rolls out, if they do, to determine if it will work for us individually.  The available AP program information is too severely limited, especially insofar as how its working today, to consider it as the barometer of what we might expect.


----------



## brigechols

m61376,

Thanks for posting the link to the Asia Pacific program discussion thread. Very interesting read! Can anyone explain why Ko'Olina, Waiohai, and Grand Chateau are part of the Asia Pacific program?  Logic dictates that points for a 1 bedroom plus studio should equal the points for a 2 bedroom lockoff but that does not appear to be the case (Ko Olina 2 bedroom 48,900 points, 1 bedroom 33,100 points, and studio 22,300 points)  .  Still using Ko Olina as an example, there is no point distinction based on the view so 48,900 points could provide either a 2 bedroom island view or ocean view. If Marriott does roll out a points based system,  will they assign the same point value for Ko Olina, Waiohai, and Grand Chateau as assigned under the Asia Pacific program?

Just went to the Mariott AP website and noted that Membership in Marriott Vacation Club, Asia Pacific is not open to US Residents.


----------



## PerryM

*Coconut telegraph here...*

Wyndham makes no bones about resales - they hate them and that's why they go for 5 cents on the dollar.  Buy from Wyndham and by the time the ink dries you lost 95% of your "investment".  They don't buy resale under ANY circumstances I know of.

Marriott seems to want it both ways - hate resales but they become a resale buyer to further their own interests.  Isn't that what we do when we buy resale - let someone else lose 40%+ and use, exchange, and rent?

Marriott is the largest resale buyer in the world and they want to lecture us about buying resale?  Hello?????

Now Marriott demands we pay for being a resale owner yet they are just as guilty.

It's spelled *hypocrisy* and it won't go unnoticed by Marriott owners....

(From my laptop while under a coconut tree by Duke's Restaurant)


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> *Coconut telegraph here...*



BWAHAHahahahahah!  That's even better than a crackberry!  :hysterical:


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Wyndham makes no bones about resales - they hate them and that's why they go for 5 cents on the dollar.  Buy from Wyndham and by the time the ink dries you lost 95% of your "investment".  They don't buy resale under ANY circumstances I know of.
> 
> Marriott seems to want it both ways - hate resales but they become a resale buyer to further their own interests.  Isn't that what we do when we buy resale - let someone else lose 40%+ and use, exchange, and rent?
> 
> Marriott is the largest resale buyer in the world and they want to lecture us about buying resale?  Hello?????
> 
> Now Marriott demands we pay for being a resale owner yet they are just as guilty.
> 
> It's spelled *hypocrisy* and it won't go unnoticed by Marriott owners....
> 
> (From my laptop while under a coconut tree by Duke's Restaurant)



Why is everyone *always* assuming Marriott will copy Wyndham? Why not any of the other many points based systems out there? Some of the other points based reservations systems even employ the dreaded ROFR, which artificially props up the resale values to much higher than 5 cents per point. 

I agree with Fletch. Some of you are *way* over thinking this.  Absolutely nothing has happened and a few of you are tossing the baby out with the bath water. Before we condem Marriott, I think we at least owe it to them to actually *see* what's being offered first, then we can disect it and decide if it's good deal or bad. The way you guys are going at these shadows you'd think you were fortune tellers or some other nonsense.

Tell me, exactly how can Marriott be hypocritical when they haven't DONE anything yet? Do you have some sort of crystal ball that will tell you the future? Hypocrisy can't exist until they actually do something. Even when they do make an announcment, unless you know what they're going to say you can't make that statement. You're way off base at this time and your way over thinking this. You're getting your knickers in a knot over something that hasn't happened and, IMHO, isn't likely to happen. At least not in the realm your mind is wandering.


----------



## Latravel

dougp26364 said:


> I agree with Fletch. Some of you are *way* over thinking this.  Absolutely nothing has happened and a few of you are tossing the baby out with the bath water. Before we condem Marriott, I think we at least owe it to them to actually *see* what's being offered first, then we can disect it and decide if it's good deal or bad...



Very well said.  I may be foolish but I believe Marriott will put out a good product IF they decide to go that route.  Based on their past performance, they are doing something right and I just don't believe they are completely incompetent, hypocritical or vindictive as some may suggest.  I am looking forward to seeing what they have to offer and if it fits with my vacation needs.


----------



## SueDonJ

I agree with you two, Doug and Heidi.  I think it will be interesting (and maybe a little exciting, too   ) to see what Marriott might roll out here.  But in the meantime, I love playing "what if" with these discussions - I learn something new all the time.


----------



## DanCali

Latravel said:


> Very well said.  I may be foolish but I believe Marriott will put out a good product IF they decide to go that route.  Based on their past performance, they are doing something right...



Does this include the Asia Pacific points system?


----------



## PerryM

*Believe Marriott*



dougp26364 said:


> Why is everyone *always* assuming Marriott will copy Wyndham? Why not any of the other many points based systems out there? Some of the other points based reservations systems even employ the dreaded ROFR, which artificially props up the resale values to much higher than 5 cents per point.
> 
> I agree with Fletch. Some of you are *way* over thinking this.  Absolutely nothing has happened and a few of you are tossing the baby out with the bath water. Before we condem Marriott, I think we at least owe it to them to actually *see* what's being offered first, then we can disect it and decide if it's good deal or bad. The way you guys are going at these shadows you'd think you were fortune tellers or some other nonsense.
> 
> Tell me, exactly how can Marriott be hypocritical when they haven't DONE anything yet? Do you have some sort of crystal ball that will tell you the future? Hypocrisy can't exist until they actually do something. Even when they do make an announcement, unless you know what they're going to say you can't make that statement. You're way off base at this time and your way over thinking this. You're getting your knickers in a knot over something that hasn't happened and, IMHO, isn't likely to happen. At least not in the realm your mind is wandering.



Ok, who has been spreading fear among owners for 4 years now?  Marriott; that's who.

They have used the hypothetical internal exchange system to put fear into folks who bring up the topic of resales - right?

Since Marriott is the one spreading this constant rumor for 4 years now I have to assume they are serious and the rumor is correct.

The new Marriott internal exchange system is a sales tool designed to hurt the resale market - just as they keep telling us for 4 years now - "Better not buy resale our you'll get screwed".

I was told this same rumor at least 3 times over the 4 years - this year our salesrep played dumb and shrugged his shoulder.

Why on earth not believe Marriott's own agents when they keep telling us the same thing for 4 years now?

Marriott could have kept it's big fat mouth closed for 4 years but they decided to spread fear far and wide.

The rumor helps Marriott - they dropped the ROFR and spread this rumor and resale prices fall - they then snap up resales at some point and punish owners who do the same thing.  Even Wyndham has the decency to at least not do this to their owners.

I don't know if a lot of owners will be ticked off at this performance but Marriott is the one tarnishing their image with this rumor, not us.

I believe them...


----------



## dioxide45

*Cost*

I guess for many people it will come down to cost. If the cost is equivalent to what we pay today: $89 II fee + $109 for an exchange, then they will get a lot of people to convert. However, if Marriott uses it as a cash grab and charges anything even close to or more than $300 per year for a week, it will fail. Why pay more for something that you already have? The only gain would be some extra flexibility that you can already get with ShortStay.

With ShortStay you have to be flexible and able to travel on shorter notice, though according to that survey from over a year ago, it seems that the new system wasn't going to permit shorter stays except within a smaller window before checking.

This is all a big if, because I am doubtful that we will ever see it.


----------



## m61376

brigechols said:


> m61376,
> 
> Thanks for posting the link to the Asia Pacific program discussion thread. Very interesting read! Can anyone explain why Ko'Olina, Waiohai, and Grand Chateau are part of the Asia Pacific program?  Logic dictates that points for a 1 bedroom plus studio should equal the points for a 2 bedroom lockoff but that does not appear to be the case (Ko Olina 2 bedroom 48,900 points, 1 bedroom 33,100 points, and studio 22,300 points)  .  Still using Ko Olina as an example, there is no point distinction based on the view so 48,900 points could provide either a 2 bedroom island view or ocean view. If Marriott does roll out a points based system,  will they assign the same point value for Ko Olina, Waiohai, and Grand Chateau as assigned under the Asia Pacific program?
> 
> Just went to the Mariott AP website and noted that Membership in Marriott Vacation Club, Asia Pacific is not open to US Residents.



The Hawaiian resorts are geographically closer and Vegas is a popular destination for esp. Japanese tourists.

It would seem logical that stufio + 1BR =2BR, but even when you look at Marriott's website for rentals 2BR's are cheaper than a studio + a 1BR.

It's anyone's guess what kind of point values they assign. Hopefully it won't be akin to the AP program, or I think it will be hard to get it off the ground (of course, that's my opinion on that).


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> *Now*, the governing docs for most resorts contain the 13-mo wording, yes.  But the same is not true for *when it was implemented*.  iconnections, I believe, has posted that it changed the rules/benefits of her ownership after the fact and, she believes, devalued the ownership for her and all single-week owners *at the time*.  Regardless of how/why it was done or what any of us feel about it now, I brought it into this discussion only to prove the point that Marriott does have a history of devaluing ownership for certain owners by changing rules/benefits after the fact.  That's it.  I don't see where anyone can disagree with that, if an owner who was a direct beneficiary of it has stated it to be so.



I was just repeating what Dave stated in another post: "The documents for most or all Marriott resorts contain a provision allowing owners of multiple weeks to reserve concurrent or consecutive weeks 13 months in advance. Some resort documents specifically state that the privilege is offered to owners of multiple weeks at that particular resort.

Marriott decided back in the early 1990s to extend that privilege to those who own at different resorts. "

It is possible that there was an isolated resort or resorts that did not have it- which is why I paraphrased his statement including the most if not all. Clearly it has been this way for almost 2 decades.

Regardless, as has been discussed many times before about that rule, it was applied evenly across the board and always provided for at least half of every reservation period to be available for single week owners. You keep on bringing it up as substantiating your contention that Marriott has devalued ownership for certain subsets of owners so they can do it again. However, again we'll have to disagree there; while I recognize that you feel there is a relationship to creating an ownership class system, I just don't see how your analysis applies.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Ok, who has been spreading fear among owners for 4 years now?  Marriott; that's who.
> 
> They have used the hypothetical internal exchange system to put fear into folks who bring up the topic of resales - right?
> 
> Since Marriott is the one spreading this constant rumor for 4 years now I have to assume they are serious and the rumor is correct.
> 
> The new Marriott internal exchange system is a sales tool designed to hurt the resale market - just as they keep telling us for 4 years now - "Better not buy resale our you'll get screwed".
> 
> I was told this same rumor at least 3 times over the 4 years - this year our salesrep played dumb and shrugged his shoulder.
> 
> Why on earth not believe Marriott's own agents when they keep telling us the same thing for 4 years now?
> 
> Marriott could have kept it's big fat mouth closed for 4 years but they decided to spread fear far and wide.
> 
> The rumor helps Marriott - they dropped the ROFR and spread this rumor and resale prices fall - they then snap up resales at some point and punish owners who do the same thing.  Even Wyndham has the decency to at least not do this to their owners.
> 
> I don't know if a lot of owners will be ticked off at this performance but Marriott is the one tarnishing their image with this rumor, not us.
> 
> I believe them...



The fear is spread by irrational rumors running rampent on internet forums.

You've been on more TS presentations than I have so you tell me, how many salesmen don't have some sort of fear speech to discourage resale purchases? Every presentation I've been on the salesman has a predictable reaction when you mention the R word. This is nothing new to TS sales floors so why is it such a big deal with Marriott?

F.E.A.R = False Evidence Appearing Real. 


Sure a TS salesman wants to discourage resale purchases. They work on commision. What would you expect from them? To tell you to go out and buy resale rather than buy from them right now? Come on, you're off base on this. We're the ones spreading the "fear", not Marriott.


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> I guess for many people it will come down to cost. If the cost is equivalent to what we pay today: $89 II fee + $109 for an exchange, then they will get a lot of people to convert. However, if Marriott uses it as a cash grab and charges anything even close to or more than $300 per year for a week, it will fail. Why pay more for something that you already have? The only gain would be some extra flexibility that you can already get with ShortStay.
> 
> With ShortStay you have to be flexible and able to travel on shorter notice, though according to that survey from over a year ago, it seems that the new system wasn't going to permit shorter stays except within a smaller window before checking.
> 
> This is all a big if, because I am doubtful that we will ever see it.



It has to be cost effective or one heck of a great system for it to work. If there's no real incentive to make the change, the change won't be made and the system will fail.


----------



## PerryM

*#203*



dougp26364 said:


> The fear is spread by irrational rumors running rampent on internet forums.
> 
> You've been on more TS presentations than I have so you tell me, how many salesmen don't have some sort of fear speech to discourage resale purchases? Every presentation I've been on the salesman has a predictable reaction when you mention the R word. This is nothing new to TS sales floors so why is it such a big deal with Marriott?
> 
> F.E.A.R = False Evidence Appearing Real.
> 
> 
> Sure a TS salesman wants to discourage resale purchases. They work on commision. What would you expect from them? To tell you to go out and buy resale rather than buy from them right now? Come on, you're off base on this. We're the ones spreading the "fear", not Marriott.



But this is an orchestrated rumor by a Fortune 500 company (#203 out of 500) - for 4 (four) years now.  Thousands of their agents spreading the same rumor to tens/hundreds of thousands of owners/customers.

There is a HUGE difference between an incompetent salesrep cooking up some lame excuse for not buying resale and a MAJOR corporation spreading a rumor to hurt their owners.

Make no mistake about this - the rumor created and pushed by Marriott is designed to frighten owners/non-owners.  The logical reason for this is to lower resale prices and allow them to recycle resales for peanuts.

Marriott's behavior is gutter marketing - they are simply joining the ranks of the lesser respected timeshare organizations.  They make their own reputation; not me.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> But this is an orchestrated rumor by a Fortune 500 company (#203 out of 500) - for 4 (four) years now.  Thousands of their agents spreading the same rumor to tens/hundreds of thousands of owners/customers.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between an incompetent salesrep cooking up some lame excuse for not buying resale and a MAJOR corporation spreading a rumor to hurt their owners.
> 
> Make no mistake about this - the rumor created and pushed by Marriott is designed to frighten owners/non-owners.  The logical reason for this is to lower resale prices and allow them to recycle resales for peanuts.
> 
> Marriott's behavior is gutter marketing - they are simply joining the ranks of the lesser respected timeshare organizations.  They make their own reputation; not me.



I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think you're seeing shadows that just aren't there. I've heard similar stories that are consistant from other timeshare developers. I don't believe that there was a shooter on the grassy noll in Dallas either.


----------



## taffy19

m61376 said:


> I was just repeating what Dave stated in another post: "The documents for most or all Marriott resorts contain a provision allowing owners of multiple weeks to reserve concurrent or consecutive weeks 13 months in advance. Some resort documents specifically state that the privilege is offered to owners of multiple weeks at that particular resort.
> 
> Marriott decided back in the early 1990s to extend that privilege to those who own at different resorts. "
> 
> It is possible that there was an isolated resort or resorts that did not have it- which is why I paraphrased his statement including the most if not all. Clearly it has been this way for almost 2 decades.
> 
> Regardless, as haWs been discussed many times before about that rule, it was applied evenly across the board and always provided for at least half of every reservation period to be available for single week owners. You keep on bringing it up as substantiating your contention that Marriott has devalued ownership for certain subsets of owners so they can do it again. However, again we'll have to disagree there; while I recognize that you feel there is a relationship to creating an ownership class system, I just don't see how your analysis applies.


Our DSV-I was a resale that we bought from the Marriott direct as we exchanged our DSV-II contract to a DSV-I the next day.

The 13 months advance booking perk wasn't in existence yet and wasn't mentoned in the contract as far as I remember but there is a clause that they can make changes from time to time. *

After the change, we still had our 12 months in advance booking privilege so we kept that feature but people, who could book earlier, most likely booked the best weeks so they were no longer available to the one week owners. *This is what we noticed and were unhappy about as we could no longer get early March. *

It really made a change for the worst to us and this is why we decided to upgrade to a fixed week and unit in Maui and we like it..


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think you're seeing shadows that just aren't there. I've heard similar stories that are consistant from other timeshare developers. I don't believe that there was a shooter on the grassy noll in Dallas either.



Please don't put words in my mouth.

Just listen to what the Marriott Salesreps say and what Marriott releases will be very close to what they keep warning us:

*"Better not buy resale or you'll get screwed with the new Marriott Owner Internal Exchange System".*

Just you watch...


----------



## SueDonJ

SueDonJ said:


> ... I brought it into this discussion only to prove the point that Marriott does have a history of devaluing ownership for certain owners by changing rules/benefits after the fact.  That's it. ...





m61376 said:


> ... You keep on bringing it up as substantiating your contention that Marriott has devalued ownership for certain subsets of owners so they can do it again. However, again we'll have to disagree there; while I recognize that you feel there is a relationship to creating an ownership class system, I just don't see how your analysis applies.





iconnections said:


> ... It really made a change for the worst to us and this is why we decided to upgrade to a fixed week and unit in Maui and we like it..



Thanks, iconnections; I thought it was you who had posted before about being "caught" by that change.

m, IF a new exchange program is rolled out and IF the only difference for resale and direct buyers is a sliding initiation fee, how will that be "creating an ownership class system?"  I do see it as similar to the 13-mo rule, in that folks will have to decide for themselves if it makes sense to pay a premium for a certain usage benefit.


----------



## m61376

iconnections- Please understand I am not trying to be dismissive of your past situation. However, at least half of each of the "best" weeks (of each week, actually) are saved for the 12 month mark. At some resorts there are a few super desirable weeks that get booked very fast, and unless you call in exactly a 9 and are lucky, you may not get what you want. 

I am glad the fixed week works better for you. For some people, they do. You save the aggravation of having to make reservations, but lose the flexibility of floating weeks. Everything is a trade off and it is good to have options to suit your needs.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> m, IF a new exchange program is rolled out and IF the only difference for resale and direct buyers is a sliding initiation fee, how will that be "creating an ownership class system?"  I do see it as similar to the 13-mo rule, in that folks will have to decide for themselves if it makes sense to pay a premium for a certain usage benefit.



As far as I know, owners weren't given a choice to pay a premium in to be able to book at 13 months. I assume by paying a premium you meant that they had the option of adding an additional week of ownership and booking weeks consecutively or contiguously. But, at least as far as I know, it was never a question of paying an additional fee for the privilege.

The difference is very clear- EVERY owner had the same option of buying another week at the same cost and on-going obligations (MF's, etc.). All owners who bought under the same set of rules of usage at least should continue to be treated equally.

Sue- it is clear we are never going to see eye to eye on this- and it seems silly and perhaps disrespectful of other Tugger's time to have to read through the bantering. I recognize that you don't feel that Marriott would be treating resale owners unfairly; please accept that I do. I am sure some people agree with you and others with me- it doesn't really matter. Let's just agree to disagree and move forward rather than constantly rehashing the same diatribe.


----------



## taffy19

dougp26364 said:


> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think you're seeing shadows that just aren't there. I've heard similar stories that are consistant from other timeshare developers. I don't believe that there was a shooter on the grassy noll in Dallas either.



Doug, I am with you as we have taken several updates on all three Islands and the sales people didn't spread any rumors.  I even asked them about the new system and some even hadn't heard about it yet.  I heard it on an owner type meeting where they explain how to use the system to your advantage but he could not give any further details.  I will ask again when we are there in a few weeks but now we are in Mexico and my computer fried.    Too many nasty storms so have to use iPhone where I can get free WiFi but it works.


----------



## taffy19

m61376 said:


> iconnections- Please understand I am not trying to be dismissive of your past situation. However, at least half of each of the "best" weeks (of each week, actually) are saved for the 12 month mark. At some resorts there are a few super desirable weeks that get booked very fast, and unless you call in exactly a 9 and are lucky, you may not get what you want.
> 
> I am glad the fixed week works better for you. For some people, they do. You save the aggravation of having to make reservations, but lose the flexibility of floating weeks. Everything is a trade off and it is good to have options to suit your needs.



We don't lose the flexibity of booking any other week or unit but have to go through II instead.  Some of the best weeks are there as you know already.  You put them there to make a very good exchange.

Half the inventory is available but does that mean half of the
most desirable weeks?  Who says that as it may be the weeks for the whole season and the best weeks go first.  We noticed a big difference after this new perk.  It no longer affects us now but it can happen again with a new system.  This is what Sue was trying to mention.


----------



## m61376

iconnections said:


> We don't lose the flexibity of booking any other week or unit but have to go through II instead.  Some of the best weeks are there as you know already.  You put them there to make a very good exchange.
> 
> Half the inventory is available but does that mean half of the
> most desirable weeks?  Who says that as it may be the weeks for the whole season and the best weeks go first.  We noticed a big difference after this new perk.  It no longer affects us now but it can happen again with a new system.  This is what Sue was trying to mention.



According to many posts it is not just half the weeks in the season but half of every week. Actually, it goes further- it is half of every arrival date. I recently verified this when the SC went to Thursday-Monday reservations. Only 50% of every arrival date is released at 13 months. At least half of every arrival date is reserved for 12 months or less (the other 50% plus any remaining inventory from the 13 month booking).

The reason why some owners noted a big difference is two-fold- some resorts have either too long a season and/or some super desirable weeks in that season and less than half the owners generally utilize the 13 month rule (even multiple week owners may not use it), so that the competition is less for that half of the inventory. t doesn't indicate that Marriott didn't save half. In fact, there have been many posts about people who couldn't get what they wanted at 13 months, but were able to once the 12 month inventory was released.

I am glad using II for exchanges to complement your fixed week has worked well for you.


----------



## taffy19

SueDonJ said:


> Thanks, iconnections; I thought it was you who had posted before about being "caught" by that change.
> 
> m, IF a new exchange program is rolled out and IF the only difference for resale and direct buyers is a sliding initiation fee, how will that be "creating an ownership class system?"  I do see it as similar to the 13-mo rule, in that folks will have to decide for themselves if it makes sense to pay a premium for a certain usage benefit.


Again, I agree with you.  If there is a sliding scale, one has to make a choice of joining or not just like it was for us to buy a second week to get the 13 months' in advance reservation perk.  We decided against it because you have to keep adding more weeks to keep getting the best weeks.  We hardly ever exchange so doubt if we will join the new system either.

I don't see the sliding scale to be a hurdle because it is to Marriott's advantage to get as many owners aboard to make the new system a success.


----------



## SueDonJ

iconnections said:


> ... Half the inventory is available but does that mean half of the most desirable weeks?  Who says that as it may be the weeks for the whole season and the best weeks go first.  We noticed a big difference after this new perk.  It no longer affects us now but it can happen again with a new system.  This is what Sue was trying to mention.



m is correct in that the 13-mo rule limits reservations to only 50% of the available inventory for each week, so that at the 12-mo mark the remaining 50% is released.  The unwritten rule now is that owners who want high-demand weeks had better be ready at 9AM on the dot on the first eligible (13-mo and 12-mo) days, which perhaps wasn't necessary prior to that change because that was the beginning of MVCI's existence and there were fewer owners overall?  Regardless, it does negatively impact single-week reservations, as we all have found when we're trying to get a high-demand week at the 12-mo mark.  As well, single-week owners lose the advantage to multi-week owners at both the 13-mo mark when they're not eligible to call, and at the 12-mo mark when they're competing with all owners not just the other single-week owners.

There are so few owners on TUG who were around at the time the 13-mo rule was implemented.  I wonder if it wasn't "loosely interpreted" (as so many stated MVCI rules are) at the very beginning so that 50% of the inventory for a season - instead of a week - was reserved prior to the single-week owners being able to call in.  I don't know, just thinking out loud ...  But regardless, it's understandable that when it was implemented, even if it wasn't loosely interpreted, it caused problems for single-week owners that they hadn't had before.

And you're correct, too, in that I'm only trying to mention that Marriott has a history of changing things so that only certain owners might be negatively impacted.  I'm not saying I know that they'll do it again, only that it wouldn't surprise me if it happened again because history usually repeats.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> IF a new exchange program is rolled out and IF the only difference for resale and direct buyers is a sliding initiation fee, how will that be "creating an ownership class system?"  I do see it as similar to the 13-mo rule, in that folks will have to decide for themselves if it makes sense to pay a premium for a certain usage benefit.



The 13 month rule was intended to promote sales. There is nothing preventing ANY owner from buying another unit (retail or resale) and getting that benefit. It is not discriminatory.

A different initiation fee discriminates between different owners and seems punitive. "Discriminate" is a strong word but look up the definition and tell me if this won't qualify.... There is no way for a resale owner to avoid this penalty, unless they just don't buy in. The cannot just "convert" to retail...


----------



## PerryM

*Apples and Oranges...*



SueDonJ said:


> Thanks, iconnections; I thought it was you who had posted before about being "caught" by that change.
> 
> m, IF a new exchange program is rolled out and IF the only difference for resale and direct buyers is a sliding initiation fee, how will that be "creating an ownership class system?"  *I do see it as similar to the 13-mo rule, in that folks will have to decide for themselves if it makes sense to pay a premium for a certain usage benefit*.



ANY Marriott owner, developer bought or resale, can use the 13-month rule with multiple weeks of ownership.  Makes no difference where the units were bought.

The new Internal Exchange System is going to be a different animal - you must buy something direct from Marriott to exchange with fellow Marriott owners.  Either you buy direct or pay a membership fee which does NOT pass with ownership to the new owner.

Marriott is erecting a barrier for owners who used to be able to exchange their units with II - owners at the same resort are going to be prevented from exchanging usage among themselves.

This is a hostile attack on Marriott owners who now have freedom to exchange usage among themselves via II.  All to enrich Marriott stockholders while screwing Marriott owners.

If Marriott want's to introduce an owner friendly Internal Exchange System they will not even mention where the unit was bought.  If they introduce a caste system of ownership then this is all for Marriott's benefit; a cheap sales gimmick by a sleazy timeshare company.


----------



## taffy19

Susan, "m" is saying that even the arrival dates of the weeks are cut in half so it shoudn't have made a difference to us so long ago now.  I just realized that we had bought at a brand new resort (Marriott Desert Springs Villas II) so that gave Palm Desert many new units but we always made reservations for DSV-I as we liked it better but other owners may have wanted to exchange to a newer resort.  One thing I do know is that we were on the phone at or before 6 AM PST.  I remember posting our frustration here.

June is here soon enough and all of us will know what will happen or nothing at all so all the worry is for nothing.  I feel that Marriott owes us an explanation or some report to ease our uncertainties and also for their benefit so people may buy again even if it is a resale as they will pay the maintenance fees and delinquencies will stay low.


----------



## wuv pooh

I agree with Fletch.  Way overthinking it.

There are already two classes of owner:

The wolves - Us here on Tug 
The sheep - Everyone else

Marriott will take care of the sheep because they pay the bills.  The wolves will take care of themselves and we will know how ~ 2 days after the new system is released, if ever.

Think of it more like the Marriott Rewards system.

Direct owners get it.
Resale owners can get it by paying a large fee to Marriott or a Marriott approved broker.  Definitely at purchase, remember at least one example of after the fact and numerous examples of resales being added to the point system as part of a deal for a new developer week.

For the new exchange system

New direct owners will get it.
Resale owners can get it if they pay Marriott a big fee
Old direct owners will have something in the middle.

Don't see any issue with it.  I think it is pretty standard because in both the contracts I signed I had to acknowledge that I was not buying based on any current or future exchange system.  That was an option, but not inherent in the real estate interest and subject to change.  Also why the TUG rule exists to buy where you want to stay.

The sheep will gladly exchange the uncertainty of exchanges for the surety of a points system.  The sheep don't expect their $11k Horizons Gold to trade into a $40k Grande Ocean Platinum week like I do.  They will gladly trade two years to go on a lifetime trip to Hawaii if they know they are guaranteed a 2BD and don't have to worry about waiting and hassle.  Most people want things simple.  Marriott will keep those people happy just like they did with the rental program.


----------



## taffy19

Perry, I do not agree with you.  One week owners had to buy a second week to get the 13 months advantage.  It was a smart sales tool for Marriott to sell more weeks.

If the new system is for every one but at a sliding scale, every one can get the new exchange system.  The difference in price to join should be minimal if Marriott wants to attract most owners to join.  This makes business sense and they are not out to punish resale buyers.  They may have a grace period so why worry about it as they will do what is best for their bottom line and try to keep their current owner base happy and loyal.  Are you an alarmist and like excitement and a good story?


----------



## SueDonJ

I'm sorry, I am just NOT getting all this outrage over Marriott implementing a fee for resales to join an internal exchange system.  I'm just not.    It will simply be one way for Marriott to extract revenue from a source that's up until now not been available to them.  If the market will support Marriott's attempt to collect the fees, then the business plan is sustainable.  Simple as that.

If Fletch is correct, the difference in fees between direct purchases and external resales will be $1K.  Realistically, that fee is not nearly enough to "decimate" and "destroy" all future resales - it's practically a drop in the bucket compared to the ongoing devaluations in the market.  Besides which, it will most likely be absorbed by the seller.  Why is it NOW okay to scream and yell and cry poor over a seller's loss, when resale buyers have been only too willing to take advantage of the losses that sellers have been taking FOR YEARS on the external resale market?  This argument seems so transparent to me - the only reason resale buyers are upset is because they're now, for the first time, going to become beneficiaries of Marriott's standard business practices which do allow devaluations and have resulted in negative usage value for certain owners.  "Welcome to the real world" seems appropriate here.

They're not taking away the basic right to exchange.  Any owner can choose to not join and exchange his/her week(s) exactly the same way as now - deposit with II (or whichever exchange company MVCI contracts with at the time of the exchange,) exchange for MRP (as long as that option remains available,) join and exchange through another company that does not have a contractual affiliation with MVCI, exchange privately with other owners individually or through the many websites set up for that ...  None of those options will be unavailable by the simple implementation of an internal exchange system.  Impacted by reduced inventory, sure.  But that's where the consumer's choice to pay a premium for added value comes in.  Again, it's simply business.


----------



## PerryM

*Just the beginning folks...*



wuv pooh said:


> I agree with Fletch.  Way overthinking it.
> 
> There are already two classes of owner:
> 
> The wolves - Us here on Tug
> The sheep - Everyone else
> 
> Marriott will take care of the sheep because they pay the bills.  The wolves will take care of themselves and we will know how ~ 2 days after the new system is released, if ever.
> 
> Think of it more like the Marriott Rewards system.
> 
> Direct owners get it.
> Resale owners can get it by paying a large fee to Marriott or a Marriott approved broker.  Definitely at purchase, remember at least one example of after the fact and numerous examples of resales being added to the point system as part of a deal for a new developer week.
> 
> For the new exchange system
> 
> New direct owners will get it.
> Resale owners can get it if they pay Marriott a big fee
> Old direct owners will have something in the middle.
> 
> *Don't see any issue with it*.  I think it is pretty standard because in both the contracts I signed I had to acknowledge that I was not buying based on any current or future exchange system.  That was an option, but not inherent in the real estate interest and subject to change.  Also why the TUG rule exists to buy where you want to stay.
> 
> The sheep will gladly exchange the uncertainty of exchanges for the surety of a points system.  The sheep don't expect their $11k Horizons Gold to trade into a $40k Grande Ocean Platinum week like I do.  They will gladly trade two years to go on a lifetime trip to Hawaii if they know they are guaranteed a 2BD and don't have to worry about waiting and hassle.  Most people want things simple.  Marriott will keep those people happy just like they did with the rental program.



Marriott is fundamentally changing the PRIMARY reason folks buy timeshares - to exchange usage among themselves.  This is a VERY big deal.

There is nothing wrong with the II system used by hundreds of thousands of existing Marriott owners - we have a 24 day exclusive internal exchange system now.

Marriott wants to destroy the perfectly good existing system and prevent Marriott owners from enjoying their primary reason for buying a Marriott - to exchange usage among Marriott owners.

This is a VERY big deal.

What's to stop Marriott from amending the 13-month rule next?

I'm not talking about 13-month reservations within the same resort - Marriott could easily demand that in order to use the 13-month rule between resorts you must belong to the new exchange system?

Well; they cooked up the 13-month rule between resorts they can amend it any time they want.

Don't assume that Marriott's war on owners stops at this one sales gimmick - they can do a lot of damage to us if they want - and it sounds like they don't care as long as they make a few more bucks.

Once owners roll over on this issue there will be more issues shoved down our throats; a track record will have been established.

I for one will continue to point out that this is all for Marriott's benefit at our expense.


----------



## Clemson Fan

wuv pooh said:


> I agree with Fletch.  Way overthinking it.
> 
> There are already two classes of owner:
> 
> The wolves - Us here on Tug
> The sheep - Everyone else
> 
> Marriott will take care of the sheep because they pay the bills.  The wolves will take care of themselves and we will know how ~ 2 days after the new system is released, if ever.
> 
> Think of it more like the Marriott Rewards system.
> 
> Direct owners get it.
> Resale owners can get it by paying a large fee to Marriott or a Marriott approved broker.  Definitely at purchase, remember at least one example of after the fact and numerous examples of resales being added to the point system as part of a deal for a new developer week.
> 
> For the new exchange system
> 
> New direct owners will get it.
> Resale owners can get it if they pay Marriott a big fee
> Old direct owners will have something in the middle.
> 
> Don't see any issue with it.  I think it is pretty standard because in both the contracts I signed I had to acknowledge that I was not buying based on any current or future exchange system.  That was an option, but not inherent in the real estate interest and subject to change.  Also why the TUG rule exists to buy where you want to stay.
> 
> The sheep will gladly exchange the uncertainty of exchanges for the surety of a points system.  The sheep don't expect their $11k Horizons Gold to trade into a $40k Grande Ocean Platinum week like I do.  They will gladly trade two years to go on a lifetime trip to Hawaii if they know they are guaranteed a 2BD and don't have to worry about waiting and hassle.  Most people want things simple.  Marriott will keep those people happy just like they did with the rental program.



This is a great post!

As for the rest of this thread, all I can say is blah blah blah.  It's become just a back and forth between a few people beating a dead horse.  This thread just needs to die IMO.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Who Says It's The Primary Reason ?*




PerryM said:


> Marriott is fundamentally changing the PRIMARY reason folks buy timeshares - to exchange usage among themselves.


Around here, the primary reason for buying timeshares is going there, checking in, & enjoying a nice vacation right there on site at the timeshare resort. 

Exchanging is strictly an optional add-on, a secondary consideration all the way. 

When did exchanging usage among timeshare owners -- even _Marriott_ timeshare owners -- become the primary reason for buying ? 

Sounds like weasel-speak to me. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## SueDonJ

Clemson Fan said:


> This is a great post!
> 
> As for the rest of this thread, all I can say is blah blah blah.  It's become just a back and forth between a few people beating a dead horse.  This thread just needs to die IMO.



Agree, great post!

But you folks always want to kill off the horse long before it's ready to be buried!  Where's the fun in that?  Take a cat's view - you gotta enjoy the mouse for a while before you drop it on the doormat and wander away.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> The 13 month rule was intended to promote sales. There is nothing preventing ANY owner from buying another unit (retail or resale) and getting that benefit. It is not discriminatory.
> 
> A different initiation fee discriminates between different owners and seems punitive. "Discriminate" is a strong word but look up the definition and tell me if this won't qualify.... There is no way for a resale owner to avoid this penalty, unless they just don't buy in. The cannot just "convert" to retail...



Think about what the threads would have looked like if TUG as it exists today had been around when the 13-mo rule was implemented.  I imagine there's no way that single-week owners were happy about it, or would have seen it as simply a business tool to promote sales.  No, I think they would have felt like they were being treated as the red-headed stepchildren beside Marriott's favorite beauty queen multi-week owners.

After all, it's natural to feel that way if you believe that someone else is getting something that you're not, especially when you've thought all along that you were equals and didn't expect to be made to feel differently.  Is it possible that a similar, natural feeling might be happening here?


----------



## rsackett

Man, after reading this thread I dumped my Marriott weeks before it was too late.  I found some sucker to take them, I did not even have to pay him.  All I had to do was pay all the costs of the transfer.  I am so glad I dumped them while I still could.

Ray






:hysterical: Just kidding


----------



## winger

wuv pooh said:


> ...
> 
> There are already two classes of owner:
> 
> The wolves - Us here on Tug
> *The sheep* - Everyone else
> 
> Marriott will take care of the sheep because they pay the bills.  ...


Just to lighten it up a little ... when I think of wolves and sheep, for some reason I envisio sheep getting the short end of the stick, like lined up happily waiting their turn at the slaughter house!  Which, unfortunately, does NOT work as a good analogy for your example (if I understand your intent, correctly).


----------



## sdtugger

*How Will This Make Folks Happy?*

Moving on from the resale versus direct debate -- I've been trying to understand how the new system will make folks happy.  In other words, what would make someone fork over more money?  Under the current system, all owners can exchange via II.  What "enhancements" would make owners think it is a good idea to pay an extra fee for the privilege of a new exchange option?

The points system that is used by other developers and in the MVCI asian program is rumored to be the vehicle.  What is it that makes this new system attractive?  Some have said that it is the guarantee of a trade reservation.  But, I'm struggling with how that will be possible.  Using Maui as an example, nearly 50% of the weeks are currently booked within minutes of becoming available (presidents week, spring break weeks, all of summer, thanksgiving, and Christmas weeks, etc.).  How would a new points systme "guarantee" anyone that they could reserve a holiday or summer week in Maui?

Without such a guarantee, I can't see any reason to pay more dollars.  Recognizing that we are working with rumors, I still can't understand how even the rumors make this a good deal.  Please help me understand.


----------



## winger

Clemson Fan said:


> This is a great post!
> 
> As for the rest of this thread, all I can say is blah blah blah.  It's become just a back and forth between a few people beating a dead horse.  This thread just needs to die IMO.


Heck, do NOT close this thread.  It has been great enjoyment reading the different ideas, seeing some drama, etc.  Makes my annual TUG fee seem like a GREAT value when compared to movie tickets nowadays  

On a more serious note - I hope Marriott is smart enough to read stuff like this thread. It will only hopefully make their product more member/owner-friendly.


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## winger

AwayWeGo said:


> Around here, the primary reason for buying timeshares is going there, checking in, & enjoying a nice vacation right there on site at the timeshare resort.
> 
> Exchanging is strictly an optional add-on, a secondary consideration all the way.
> 
> When did exchanging usage among timeshare owners -- even _Marriott_ timeshare owners -- become the primary reason for buying ?
> 
> Sounds like weasel-speak to me.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


Hi AwayYouGo.  Actually, our ownerships (Marriott and non-Marriott) were purchased mainly for exchanging, NOT for going to our home resorts (e.g. Williamsburg VA is way too far for an annual car drive/trip, Las Vegas is NOT our type of town, etc.).  Maybe our situation is different than the majority, but we could not find a nice resort nearby for the price we were willing to pay (we purchased most (though not all) of our units direct or resale but through the developer), plus we like the prospect of visiting different places every year (although it has not really turned out that way since we had kids starting 8 years ago)...


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## PerryM

*Shark bites...*



AwayWeGo said:


> Around here, the primary reason for buying timeshares is going there, checking in, & enjoying a nice vacation right there on site at the timeshare resort.
> 
> Exchanging is strictly an optional add-on, a secondary consideration all the way.
> 
> When did exchanging usage among timeshare owners -- even _Marriott_ timeshare owners -- become the primary reason for buying ?
> 
> Sounds like weasel-speak to me.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Thanks for the insult, I expected no less from you.

I'm on vacation until next week and then I'll supply links that prove, as a whole, the stats support exchanging is the primary usage of timeshares in the 21st century (NOT actual usage of their unit at their resort).  I don't have Marriott numbers so they can't be used to refute the industry wide stats.  We only have ARDA numbers to work with.

If someone has those number this week please publish them and save me some time next week.

When I check into a Wyndham/WorldMark resort there are lines specifically set aside for VIP or developer bought folks - what's to stop Marriott from doing the same now?

I can easily envision the MBA's at Marriott using the following logic:


We have no new inventory to sell for the next few years
We have hundreds of thousands of owners to plunder
Create a caste system and exploit their ownership
Falling resale prices mean larger profits from recycled resales

That's how I'd look at the mess Marriott is in now - myself.

Once Marriott creates a caste system with the new exchange system it's like one shark taking a bite out of a large, lethargic fish and the feeding frenzy begins...

That's what this whole damn topic is all about - exchanging; Marriott thinks its a big deal.


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## TheTimeTraveler

*Marriott Internal Trading*

A lot of Marriott owners don't realize this, but internal Marriott trading has been successfully been going on for about 10 years down in Florida amongst Five Marriott Resorts which are part of the Florida Club.

In this scenario, everyone who owns a member timeshare at these Resorts must pay an annual fee of $34, and this is regardless of whether they use the internal trading or not.

I recently used it for the first time, and it was a very simple, painless transaction.   The basic concept is you can trade only into the season in which you actually own, so you can't go from Silver to Platinum, but you can go from Platinum to Platinum, Silver to Silver, and Gold to Gold at any of the member resorts.

Wouldn't it be nice if this concept (with it's current rules) was expanded to all USA MVCI Resorts......

Maybe others who have had positive experiences with the Florida Club would like to expand upon this for other Tuggers to read.  

Who knows, maybe someone from Marriott is following this thread.......


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## AwayWeGo

*Take It Easy There, Perry.*




PerryM said:


> Thanks for the insult, I expected no less from you.


Hold on there, big fella -- I never called you a timeshare seller (i.e., weasel), or anything else insulting.  

I did suggest that the idea of buying timeshares primarily for exchanging is timeshare seller talk -- i.e., weasel-speak. 

After all, a main point in _The Wisdom Of TUG_ is Buy Where You Actually Like To Go. 

Plus, most of the people I've heard talking up timeshare trades -- not that I'm any kind of expert -- are timeshare sellers, not timeshare owners.  

That's not to slam-dunk timeshare trades, only to point out that _using_ timeshares is primary & _exchanging_ is secondary. 

No need to get hot under the collar over it.  

And thanks for calling me up short so I could explain myself.  I don't mind needling people now & then, but I draw the line at slinging deliberate insults.  

Can't we all get along ? 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## SueDonJ

sdtugger said:


> Moving on from the resale versus direct debate -- I've been trying to understand how the new system will make folks happy.  In other words, what would make someone fork over more money?  Under the current system, all owners can exchange via II.  What "enhancements" would make owners think it is a good idea to pay an extra fee for the privilege of a new exchange option?
> 
> The points system that is used by other developers and in the MVCI asian program is rumored to be the vehicle.  What is it that makes this new system attractive?  Some have said that it is the guarantee of a trade reservation.  But, I'm struggling with how that will be possible.  Using Maui as an example, nearly 50% of the weeks are currently booked within minutes of becoming available (presidents week, spring break weeks, all of summer, thanksgiving, and Christmas weeks, etc.).  How would a new points systme "guarantee" anyone that they could reserve a holiday or summer week in Maui?
> 
> Without such a guarantee, I can't see any reason to pay more dollars.  Recognizing that we are working with rumors, I still can't understand how even the rumors make this a good deal.  Please help me understand.



There are too many questions to say what they'll roll out, and therefore whether you can say definitely yes or no right now.  But daydreaming ... if a new system can get me a 2BR plus something extra or a true 3BR in exchange for a 3BR then I'll be all ears.  3BRs are very limited to begin with and most lock-offs are deposited as two units so a 3BR for a 3BR in II rarely happens (never yet for us.)  For a while my weeks got ACs so I thought of those as the something extra, but now II is severely limiting AC availability and one of my weeks hasn't gotten one for the last two years.  As much as some folks routinely trade up in II, I'm beginning to feel like we have to trade down to make exchanging work.

Also, if Marriott's new system is set up similar to one that Doug has mentioned, where owners get priority for a time and then all inventory is released for points, then I'll look closely at that, too.  Any system that isn't limited to whatever inventory is deposited by another owner might be a better system than II, even if it doesn't make holiday and high-demand weeks more available.

A points overlay system, where home resort usage isn't affected but exchanges are subject to a points value might be a consideration, if it offers the 2BR+ option outlined above as a trade-off for the inventory limited to deposits only.  That I'd need to look at VERY closely.

We bought mainly for home resort usage, didn't think we'd do much exchanging at all - but then we learned here on TUG how much fun it could be and started thinking of all those "thousands of timeshares around the world" as a true benefit.  But if any new internal exchange system that they roll out takes away completely a home resort advantage, it won't work for us.  We'll happily vacation at Hilton Head forever.


----------



## wuv pooh

sdtugger said:


> Moving on from the resale versus direct debate -- I've been trying to understand how the new system will make folks happy.  In other words, what would make someone fork over more money?  Under the current system, all owners can exchange via II.  What "enhancements" would make owners think it is a good idea to pay an extra fee for the privilege of a new exchange option?
> 
> The points system that is used by other developers and in the MVCI asian program is rumored to be the vehicle.  What is it that makes this new system attractive?  Some have said that it is the guarantee of a trade reservation.  But, I'm struggling with how that will be possible.  Using Maui as an example, nearly 50% of the weeks are currently booked within minutes of becoming available (presidents week, spring break weeks, all of summer, thanksgiving, and Christmas weeks, etc.).  How would a new points systme "guarantee" anyone that they could reserve a holiday or summer week in Maui?
> 
> Without such a guarantee, I can't see any reason to pay more dollars.  Recognizing that we are working with rumors, I still can't understand how even the rumors make this a good deal.  Please help me understand.



I think it is pretty simple.  People value certainty and simplicity.  The system will not make it easier to get peak weeks.  It will guarantee that if a week is there and you have the points you will get it.  Always an instant exchange.  

Under the current II system you almost never see a good week online unless it is someone's cancellation in flexchange.  Good weeks are taken by ongoing requests, but you never know if you have enough trade power to get the week you want.  Sometimes it takes 6 or 9 months to get a match.  People don't like that.

Think of the typical user - the sheep  

First - they will believe Marriott and reserve any week in season not understanding that Manor Club on 4th of July has very different trade power than Manor Club in Mid Sept.

Second - they will place a hard request because they want to go someplace nice.

Third - the "helpful" II reps will call them every week telling them that they can't get the exchange, but we have other resorts available.

Fourth - they will get nervous, want to book airfare, get vacation approved, etc. so they will settle for what is offered.

The average person will be dissatisfied in this situtation because they do not understand how exchanging works and how II ranks the weeks power.  It is a black box to them.  They also do not have the flexibility to work the system and have a hard time planning a year in advance.

By contrast a points system is much easier to understand.  You either have the points or you don't.  You either called at the right time or you didn't.  If someone deposits a stronger week they won't jump the line on you.  It creates a different set of problems that Tuggers will take advantage of, but it will work better for the "normal" user on average.


----------



## m61376

TheTimeTraveler said:


> A lot of Marriott owners don't realize this, but internal Marriott trading has been successfully been going on for about 10 years down in Florida amongst Five Marriott Resorts which are part of the Florida Club.
> 
> In this scenario, everyone who owns a member timeshare at these Resorts must pay an annual fee of $34, and this is regardless of whether they use the internal trading or not.
> 
> I recently used it for the first time, and it was a very simple, painless transaction.   The basic concept is you can trade only into the season in which you actually own, so you can't go from Silver to Platinum, but you can go from Platinum to Platinum, Silver to Silver, and Gold to Gold at any of the member resorts.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice if this concept (with it's current rules) was expanded to all USA MVCI Resorts......
> 
> Maybe others who have had positive experiences with the Florida Club would like to expand upon this for other Tuggers to read.
> 
> Who knows, maybe someone from Marriott is following this thread.......


I agree- the Florida Club has a lot of merits in its simplicity. However, realistically it is too limiting in that it doesn't allow for exchanges across seasons. 

IF Marriott does adopt a program, based on their Asia Pacific program and their customer surveys, and what has filtered down the rumor mill, they are at least clearly considering a points based system, using points as a currency of sorts to allow exchanges between properties/times of different relative value. The problem inherent in this is that it will dramatically change the way people are used to trading.

As Sue pointed out, for owners of high value and larger units it may work well. They will have enough points to trade for a comparable week (high demand, 2 or 3 BR accommodations, etc.). Where the waters get very murky is that Marriott will decide which resorts are worthy of top point values, and many even Platinum week owners are likely to fall short. A Plat. week one place may not qualify for the same number of points or the same length of stay elsewhere, IF Marriott elects to assign different point values to different resorts. 

So, for example, owners of those nice Plat. Manor Club weeks, used to getting great trades, may find they need to use the value from 2 weeks to get a single week in Hawaii or the Caribbean.

This isn't being overly dramatic- if you read Fletch's posts, at least under the system Marriott is considering there will be big winners and losers. For every owners who can get more, someone else is getting less. If a Hawaii week owner or a winter Caribbean week owner gets two weeks in Orlando for their single week, it means that the owners of those two weeks in Orlando will only be able to get half a week each; I realize that is a simplistic explanation, but supply has to equal demand when all is said and done.

There are two even bigger concerns, at least for me. Point systems historically have gotten devalued over time. What a great sales gimmick if Marriott were to tout the next development as being so great that it has the highest point value in the system...and the one after that could be even better, and so on. It creates the potential for large scale abuse and our purchases, which were made with the anticipation of being able to trade into future resorts if/when they were developed, may never be able to trade into newer resorts (at least like for like, wrt season/unit size/length of stay).

The other issue is MF's- both how will they be handles in a point system and will whatever system is developed- IF one ever is- create a Starwood type scenario where disgruntled owners are simply abandoning their ownership and all owners have to compensate with MF's out of control? I can see a lot of very disgruntled Bronze and Silver week owners, who bought primarily for exchanging, realizing that now to get a Marriott they'd have to pay 2 or 3 MF's just giving up (and I don't mean to be presenting a doom and gloom scenario- but, again, if you look at Starwood you can see this is a real possibility).


----------



## rsackett

wuv pooh said:


> ...
> First - they will believe Marriott and reserve any week in season not understanding that Manor Club on 4th of July has very different trade power than Manor Club in Mid Sept.
> ...



Who knows, in the Marriott system all Plat Manor Club weeks may have the same points (I suspect they will), and there for the same trading power.  This would/could open up more of the high demand weeks for owner use.

Ray


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## SueDonJ

rsackett said:


> Who knows, in the Marriott system all Plat Manor Club weeks may have the same points (I suspect they will), and there for the same trading power.  This would/could open up more of the high demand weeks for owner use.
> 
> Ray



I agree with everything here, Ray.  Good point. (ha! - pun not intended)


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## wuv pooh

rsackett said:


> Who knows, in the Marriott system all Plat Manor Club weeks may have the same points (I suspect they will), and there for the same trading power.  This would/could open up more of the high demand weeks for owner use.



My comment refers to the existing system, which does make a distinction, and why someone might prefer points.

I agree with your point that if all Platinum weeks have the same points then there will no longer be any point to getting on the phone at 9am/6am to reserve 4th of July.  I will just log in and choose any Platinum week available if I want to get points.  It would be easier for people who want to use to get high demand weeks.

That is one anomaly of the current system.  It is often easier for me to trade into a prime week than it is for an owner to reserve it.  There are enough savvy traders that book the week that many are deposited.  If you have an ongoing request you can match that week easier than someone who owns at that resort calling in to reserve that week.


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## m61376

rsackett said:


> Who knows, in the Marriott system all Plat Manor Club weeks may have the same points (I suspect they will), and there for the same trading power.  This would/could open up more of the high demand weeks for owner use.
> 
> Ray



That is one benefit- owners likely won't be hogging prime weeks for trading, since I would expect all weeks in the same season to have the same point value (of the same size and perhaps the same view category).

The flip side is that Marriott will likely assign point values based on the average week in the season. The very real possibility exists that, whereas the MMC owner who reserved that prime July 4th week could trade to a nice 2BR for a week in Hawaii, for example, the point value of that Plat. week will be such that the MMC can only reserve a 1BR or perhaps a 2BR in Hawaii but for 3 or 4 days. While I am making a broad based assumption here, I am basing it on what Marriott offered Phuket owners in the Asia Pacific program. While the final program (IF any) may look quite different, it is clear that Marirott is at least strongly considering a program with wide disparities between properties/seasons.

Realistically, do you expect Marriott to assign point values based on the most desirable weeks in the season, or an average of the weeks. Let's face it, Marriott themselves rents a September week a whole lot less than a July week at many resorts where the Plat. season may extend for several months on either side of the summer. My guess is that the very resorts with those excessively long Plat. seasons might find the biggest disparity in their point assignments.


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## SueDonJ

Like you, m, I'd expect Marriott to assign point values based on an average week in a season and not the holiday/high-demand weeks.  Perhaps, though, because Marriott certainly recognizes that the longer-Platinum-season resorts present specific challenges to those owners, instead of an average point value there they will adjust up from the average to overcome the challenge?    Like everyone else, I certainly hope they're considering all the points that we're discussing.


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## sdtugger

*Still not getting it*

In the other point systems is it easy to reserve or trade into high demand weeks?  I am not at all confident that a points system would make it easier to reserve holiday/summer weeks in Maui.  Those weeks are gone within 1-2 minutes of coming on line.  The demand is so strong that I seriously question the conclusion that if you removed those who reserve to trade that it will be easy to reserve those weeks.  And, those weeks represent nearly 50% of the available weeks.  

Even if it is true that removing traders makes it easier for owners to reserve, I do not believe that any of these key weeks would still be available (in any level of significance) to non-owners.  If that is true, how would a would be internal trader be happier with the new system?  

Let's say I bought a Ko'Olina 2 bedroom and I want to trade into Maui.  If I can't trade it for any of the weeks when my kids are out of school, why would I pay extra for the new system?  The current system makes it fairly easy to trade a Ko'Olina into Maui for high demand weeks, provided you are willing to split the unit and trade for 2 sides (and that is a function of owners splitting and that may continue in a new system).

I guess my point is that I don't understand the "certainty" that some are suggesting would come about from the new system.  My expectation would be that it would be much tougher to trade into a key week at most resorts.


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## brigechols

m61376 said:


> The flip side is that Marriott will likely assign point values based on the average week in the season. The very real possibility exists that, whereas the MMC owner who reserved that prime July 4th week could trade to a nice 2BR for a week in Hawaii, for example, the point value of that Plat. week will be such that the MMC can only reserve a 1BR or perhaps a 2BR in Hawaii but for 3 or 4 days. While I am making a broad based assumption here, I am basing it on what Marriott offered Phuket owners in the Asia Pacific program.



The way I read and understand the Asia Pacific program, owners can use points or II to exchange. So using this example, the Phuket owner could use the internal point system to secure Hawaii for 4 or 5 days by converting their week to points or go through II and exchange a Phuket week for a Hawaii week. I would go with the exchange (internal sytem, external, or private party)  that provides the most bang for the buck.


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## Pit

In a point system trade power is irrelevant - points are points. The dates are either available, or not. You either have enough points, or not.

But, for owners not in the point system (which could be a large number of weeks), trade power and rental value will remain prime considerations. I think you will still see owners clamoring for the peak demand weeks.


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## m61376

brigechols said:


> The way I read and understand the Asia Pacific program, owners can use points or II to exchange. So using this example, the Phuket owner could use the internal point system to secure Hawaii for 4 or 5 days by converting their week to points or go through II and exchange a Phuket week for a Hawaii week. I would go with the exchange (internal sytem, external, or private party)  that provides the most bang for the buck.



And that's why, imho of course, it wouldn't make sense for even a Plat. Phuket week owner to join the Asia Pacific points program even if it were free, let alone the $5000 price tag to join. They stand to get more bang for their buck through II.


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## rsackett

If I were Marriott:

Anyone could reserve any week at any resort as long as Marriott still has points units avaiable at that resort.  For an example:  Marriott gives Joe 1200 points for his plat MMC.  Joe has no need to resurve any week at MMC unless that is where he wants to go to MMC.  If he does want to go to MMC his 1200 points is enough for a two bedroom 7 night stay any week during platinum season.  Joe would reserve the week he wants by going on-line or calling the "Points" reservation line just like he does today on the weeks system.

If Joe wants to go to KBC over Christmas he calls the points reservation line one year out and trys for that week just like people who bought there.  If all Points for that resort are already used up he is out of luck.  If points are still avaible he has the right to reserve his time there, as much time as he can get with his points.  His points will go farther with a one bedroom than a two bedroom, but that will be his choice.

He will be on the system trying to reserve with his points just like weeks owners will be trying to reserve.  Weeks owners will only have access to the number of units still in the weeks program for a given season and points owners will only have access to the number of units in the points system for that season at that resort.

Ray


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## m61376

sdtugger said:


> In the other point systems is it easy to reserve or trade into high demand weeks?  I am not at all confident that a points system would make it easier to reserve holiday/summer weeks in Maui.  Those weeks are gone within 1-2 minutes of coming on line.  The demand is so strong that I seriously question the conclusion that if you removed those who reserve to trade that it will be easy to reserve those weeks.  And, those weeks represent nearly 50% of the available weeks.
> 
> Even if it is true that removing traders makes it easier for owners to reserve, I do not believe that any of these key weeks would still be available (in any level of significance) to non-owners.  If that is true, how would a would be internal trader be happier with the new system?
> 
> Let's say I bought a Ko'Olina 2 bedroom and I want to trade into Maui.  If I can't trade it for any of the weeks when my kids are out of school, why would I pay extra for the new system?  The current system makes it fairly easy to trade a Ko'Olina into Maui for high demand weeks, provided you are willing to split the unit and trade for 2 sides (and that is a function of owners splitting and that may continue in a new system).
> 
> I guess my point is that I don't understand the "certainty" that some are suggesting would come about from the new system.  My expectation would be that it would be much tougher to trade into a key week at most resorts.


The "certainty" is that you don't have to wait for a trade- it is either available or it's not. The reality is that certain high demand weeks, esp. in resorts with a longer season such that many owners are vying for only a small portion of the weeks, will likely rarely be available. So it is a trade-off.

Ray- So, basically, you'd favor giving up any home resort priority? Under your scenario, would everyone pay the same MF's then? I think that KBC owner who doesn't get the week they want because it was secured by Joe would be pretty ticked that he was paying Hawaii's MF and the week he wanted was being enjoyed by Joe, paying MMC MF's. The other issue is that the KBC owner paid $$ to be able to reserve at KBC, and not have to compete with Joe who paid a lot less for his MMC unit. It's hard to change courses mid-stream because for every happy owner there are bound to be unhappy ones.


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## rsackett

m61376 said:


> ...
> Ray- So, basically, you'd favor giving up any home resort priority? Under your scenario, would everyone pay the same MF's then? I think that KBC owner who doesn't get the week they want because it was secured by Joe would be pretty ticked that he was paying Hawaii's MF and the week he wanted was being enjoyed by Joe, paying MMC MF's. The other issue is that the KBC owner paid $$ to be able to reserve at KBC, and not have to compete with Joe who paid a lot less for his MMC unit. It's hard to change courses mid-stream because for every happy owner there are bound to be unhappy ones.



I would charge maint fees baised on number of points.  KBC paid 50k to get more points.  Not perfect but if I was Mr. Marriott that is what I would do.  Mr. KBC could join or not his choice.  If we wants more time for his initial buy in he may do it.  Not saying I would.   

Ray


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## sdtugger

m61376 said:


> The "certainty" is that you don't have to wait for a trade- it is either available or it's not. The reality is that certain high demand weeks, esp. in resorts with a longer season such that many owners are vying for only a small portion of the weeks, will likely rarely be available. So it is a trade-off.



I agree that, based on my understanding of the rumors, high demand weeks will rarely be available.  So, the only "certainty" is that you will not be able to trade into high demand weeks.  Whereas, with the current II system, you have a strong chance of being able to trade into a high demand week.  I still have children at home so I travel during the "high demand week" time period.  I can't see how the new system would be interesting to me if it was free to join.  Add a significant fee to join and it is almost incomprehensible to consider joining.

I'm trying to learn here, so please help me understand what would make someone with a high demand week (or low demand for that matter) join a system where the only weeks available for trading would be lower demand weeks.


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## m61376

sdtugger said:


> I agree that, based on my understanding of the rumors, high demand weeks will rarely be available.  So, the only "certainty" is that you will not be able to trade into high demand weeks.  Whereas, with the current II system, you have a strong chance of being able to trade into a high demand week.  I still have children at home so I travel during the "high demand week" time period.  I can't see how the new system would be interesting to me if it was free to join.  Add a significant fee to join and it is almost incomprehensible to consider joining.
> 
> I'm trying to learn here, so please help me understand what would make someone with a high demand week (or low demand for that matter) join a system where the only weeks available for trading would be lower demand weeks.



I wish I could....

Like you, I see lots of issues with the potential program. I think it will be very hard to totally revamp a functioning system. 

There are some people who might be happy though. Owners at resorts with excessively long Plat. season who are now competing for 8 or 10 premium weeks in the season who might have less competition if people weren't nabbing them to increase their trade power (NCV, for ex.). On the other hand, if Marriott does as Ray suggests (and that, actually, concurs with what Fletch posted about eliminating home resort priority) and lets anyone with the requisite number of points book the week at the 12 month mark, you can have owners from other resorts heightening the competition. Whether it would all even out so that demand was equalized across the board is anyone's guess.

I think a big question is whether or not people would accept being given more points for their higher MF but giving up their home resort advantage. Would people be satisfied getting more purchase power by virtue of owning a high demand week and be willing to pay higher MF's, BUT lose priority for booking that high demand weeks at the resort that they purchased?

The other issue wrt MF's is that I understand what Ray suggested for KBC- the KBC owners gets more points because his week was more expensive. What does that do for different season ownership at resorts with multiple seasons? Since Bronze weeks will get fewer points, and since they paid less, do they now pay lower MF's? If so, who's going to make up the difference? Are Platinum week owners going to have to come up with additional MF's?

So, it can be that Plat. week owners will come out ahead wrt getting more points and being able to trade for either more days or bigger units at "lesser" properties, but this may come with a cost of higher MF's. Will that make it attractive?


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## JimIg23

I don't see Marriott making all Platinum weeks the same amount points, no matter how they structure the seasons.  A platinum week in hawaii can't be the same amount of points as a platinum week in Orlando.  No company is going to give a 4 week Hawaii owner that paid 300k for their weeks the same amount of points as the owner that paid 120k for 4 weeks inland.  The number of points needed for a week in Hawaii will be the same amount (if not higher) than buying a Hawaii week now direct from Marriott, the same holds for an orlando week.


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## Beverley

A sales rep indicated that with a point system Marriott would be able to access the units that were turned in for points and use those units to be available for villa reservations (not rental).  If this is true, what stops Marriott from using timeshare villas to fund rentals during those most popular weeks.  In that case, those high demand weeks could actually be in less supply rather than greater supply.

Beverley


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## bobcat

Beverley said:


> A sales rep indicated that with a point system Marriott would be able to access the units that were turned in for points and use those units to be available for villa reservations (not rental).  If this is true, what stops Marriott from using timeshare villas to fund rentals during those most popular weeks.  In that case, those high demand weeks could actually be in less supply rather than greater supply.
> 
> Beverley



We had points and I do not like them. Someone has to give up a week for that week to go into points when they join . What happens if several owners do not want the point system, alot less weeks for point owners. When you purchase  points, you give up your deed.  I have seen some points resorts where the M F"s went up alot. There has been several good points made with this thread. You will have to wait and see. Think about it. Would you trade for points and give up your deed. We use our week each and do not trade it. As it was pointed out, if you have a week you may not have enough points to trade where you want to vacation.   Also, over time, I have seen the points value go down. How will you handle that. A week is still a week.


----------



## DanCali

brigechols said:


> The way I read and understand the Asia Pacific program, owners can use points or II to exchange. So using this example, the Phuket owner could use the internal point system to secure Hawaii for 4 or 5 days by converting their week to points or go through II and exchange a Phuket week for a Hawaii week. I would go with the exchange (internal sytem, external, or private party)  that provides the most bang for the buck.



As the Phuket owner you'd go to II. 

As the Hawai owner you'd go to the internal system. 

Good luck to the Phuket owner owner getting a Hawaii week!

I keep making this point over and over - for every person who will like the internal system there is one who will dislike it... In the end - half of the owners will not like it but if they choose to stay with II the prime weeks (belonging to the "happy" owners using the internal system) will no longer be available there...


----------



## GaryDouglas

*Happiness?*

Looks like I need to update my post from time to time as this thread evolves (or devolves)…



GaryDouglas said:


> I will be happy if:
> 
> I can go between a points and deeded system at will (or I will stay with deed only)
> I can trade internally and keep my ocean front location
> Pay no more than I currently pay II for trades, and we hardly ever exchange
> It does not devalue my properties
> Continue to easily reserve my week/s at my home resort
> I will hold judgement until the rumors end and the facts appear...


----------



## dougp26364

rsackett said:


> If I were Marriott:
> 
> Anyone could reserve any week at any resort as long as Marriott still has points units avaiable at that resort.  For an example:  Marriott gives Joe 1200 points for his plat MMC.  Joe has no need to resurve any week at MMC unless that is where he wants to go to MMC.  If he does want to go to MMC his 1200 points is enough for a two bedroom 7 night stay any week during platinum season.  Joe would reserve the week he wants by going on-line or calling the "Points" reservation line just like he does today on the weeks system.
> 
> If Joe wants to go to KBC over Christmas he calls the points reservation line one year out and trys for that week just like people who bought there.  If all Points for that resort are already used up he is out of luck.  If points are still avaible he has the right to reserve his time there, as much time as he can get with his points.  His points will go farther with a one bedroom than a two bedroom, but that will be his choice.
> 
> He will be on the system trying to reserve with his points just like weeks owners will be trying to reserve.  Weeks owners will only have access to the number of units still in the weeks program for a given season and points owners will only have access to the number of units in the points system for that season at that resort.
> 
> Ray



This is essentially how most points based systems work with the exception that there is a home resort reservation advantage. One system we own in give a 2 to 3 months advantage, the other gives a 3 month advantage. In this way owners of their home resort have first shot at getting the weeks they want prior to having to compete with all other owners. 

Both systems have some sort of agreement with Interval or RCI as to what type of inventory they give to the exchange company for external exchangers. By having this agreement, the points have a value for exchange through the exchange company. 

One system (Hilton) has a set value for points taking into consideration season, view and size of the units. It doesn't matter if you own in Hawaii or Orlando, a two bedroom Platinum season costs the same amount of points. 

Most systems seem to vary the number of points by resort. DRI has different values for different resorts. One Vegas resort's two bedroom unit requires 12,500 points for a 7 night stay in the two bedroom unit. Another requires 14,000 points for a 7 night stay. Some resorts around the world cost as few as 6,000 points for a 7 night stay. 

I'll be interested to see if Marriott goes with the fixed points depending on unit size, season and view or, if they'll do like most and go with varying numbers of points based on individual resorts. My bet is they'll go with varying numbers of points for each resort. Personally, I'm not in favor of this sort of system but, it allows a developer to continue to try to sell owners more points as the newer resorts go up in points cost. Since it gives current owners a reason to continue to buy more points, it's an advantage to the developer to use this sort of system to churn more business out of existing clients. That's the only reason I believe Marriott would use this type of points based system rather than a system with a fixed value system.


----------



## PerryM

*Marriott Internal Exchange Points Plan 101*

Here's how the new Point System will probably work:


You must commit your unit for probably 3 years and if you sell your unit resale your new owner is screwed until the time is up
Each season at each Marriott will be assigned a deposit amount which will be the same for each owner at that resort
Marriott will reserve the best weeks in each season for Points owners and leave dog weeks for non-Point owners
Renting is forbidden by owners; Marriott can use their Points to rent their reservations (Hello RCI)
Marriott will have full access to anything they want for deposited developer weeks Points - they will get there 1/1000 of a second before any owner can
Unused Points can carry forward 1 year with a fee of at least $179 or are lost
Borrowing from next year is allowed if you pay the est MF for next year and $179 fee
First come/first served with 24/7 access and the day starts at Midnight EST
Delinquent MFs force suspension of account and reservations; reactivation fee charged after MF paid
Exchange fee $179
Once a reservation is made its yours - you can't rent it but can gift it to someone - don't count on redepositing your Points back
Deposit first - no peeking to see if there is anything left but Bronze weeks
Resales force instant cancellation of all reservations for the unit sold with all Points lost and Marriott gets them (just for the sold unit)

These are guesses on my part but they should be close for an antagonistic timeshare company.  There will be fees coming out of the woodwork.

Folks, the devil will be in the detail and it ain't going to be in anyone's favor but Marriott...


----------



## cruisin

PerryM said:


> Folks, the devil will be in the detail and it ain't going to be in anyone's favor but Marriott...




That is 100% accurate. Marriott has done a better job than most making the owners feel like they are important, the economy has forced them to show their true colors.


----------



## Latravel

m61376 said:


> ...I see lots of issues with the potential program... I think it will be very hard to totally revamp a functioning system.



How could you see problems when we haven't seen the program yet?   

I'm sure all those high priced Marriott experts whose education and experience revolves around this type of development have thought of all the things we could possibly think of.


----------



## Beverley

Latravel said:


> I'm sure all those high priced Marriott experts whose education and experience revolves around this type of development have thought of all the things we could possibly think of.



Can't say I'm so sure they will have thought of everything.  Their ideas will likely be skewed to the corporate advantage not the owner advantage.

Beverley


----------



## Beverley

bobcat said:


> We had points and I do not like them. Someone has to give up a week for that week to go into points when they join . What happens if several owners do not want the point system, alot less weeks for point owners. When you purchase  points, you give up your deed.  I have seen some points resorts where the M F"s went up alot. There has been several good points made with this thread. You will have to wait and see. Think about it. Would you trade for points and give up your deed. We use our week each and do not trade it. As it was pointed out, if you have a week you may not have enough points to trade where you want to vacation.   Also, over time, I have seen the points value go down. How will you handle that. A week is still a week.



You raise some very good points.   

I am unwilling to give up my deed .... period!! I agree what ever point system is developed that it will likely be devalued over time as that seems to be a pattern with reward points.  Other point systems (WorldMark and Hilton) haven't changed the amount of points/ credits needed for a resort once established, however, as new ones are built the credit values have increased and thereby the points do not go as far.

I am not a fan of points systems either, although I have a small interest in World Mark and Hilton.  I bought Marriott because I thought their system was the best the system offered when considering all the locations and the reward point options .. If they go to points and create havoc, I will not still think they are the best.

Beverley


----------



## DanCali

My how sentiment has changed in one day... :



cruisin said:


> That is 100% accurate. Marriott has done a better job than most making the owners feel like they are important, the economy has forced them to show their true colors.





Beverley said:


> If they go to points and create havoc, I will not still think they are the best.



It seems like just yesterday everyone was singing "Kumbaya"...:



Latravel said:


> Very well said.  I may be foolish but I believe Marriott will put out a good product IF they decide to go that route.  Based on their past performance, they are doing something right...





SueDonJ said:


> I agree with you two, Doug and Heidi.  I think it will be interesting (and maybe a little exciting, too   ) to see what Marriott might roll out here.



Are we all talking about the same topic???


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Here's how the new Point System will probably work:
> 
> 
> You must commit your unit for probably 3 years and if you sell your unit resale your new owner is screwed until the time is up




I don't see this happening. I know of no system that has this requirement and this would likely be unique to Marriott if it did happen. 


> [*]Each season at each Marriott will be assigned a deposit amount which will be the same for each owner at that resort


Not a big leap on this one. Basically this is a constant throughout point systems which reflects the value of certain seasons within the system. It's why bronze weeks are sold for less than Platinum weeks. 





> [*]Marriott will reserve the best weeks in each season for Points owners and leave dog weeks for non-Point owners


Again an unreasonable assumption. While the management company does have more control over the points inventory, you are assuming that the management company will not co-mingle inventory. I see Marriott keeping the owner inventory the same and allowing owners to book weeks on a first come, first served basis. 





> [*]Renting is forbidden by owners; Marriott can use their Points to rent their reservations (Hello RCI)


Again absolutely no reason to assume this. I know of no other points based system that forbids rentals unless it's for commercial purposes. Marriott already forbids rentals in it's current system for commercial purposes. I see no changes being made to this. 





> [*]Marriott will have full access to anything they want for deposited developer weeks Points - they will get there 1/1000 of a second before any owner can


Probably a reasonable assumption but, just because they can, assuming they'll take all the best weeks for their own purposes is unreasonable. No other points based system has this complaint from owners. In fact, I have just the opposite opinion in the two points based systems I participate in. I can get premium weeks easily at my home resorts and stand a much better chance of getting them at the remainder of the resorts in the system. Hawaiin exchanges have been relatively easy to see and get. Holiday weeks that aren't event weeks have been easy to get. High season weeks have been easy to reserve. Marriott's current system has many owners complaining that they can't get a summer week at their own resort. I believe a points based reservation system will resolve this issue, not create it. 





> [*]Unused Points can carry forward 1 year with a fee of at least $179 or are lost


 You're pulling a figure out of the air and it's a rather high figure. My feeling is this is a scare tactic on your part. Can you name any points based system that charges that much? 





> [*]Borrowing from next year is allowed if you pay the est MF for next year and $179 fee


Again, name a system that charges that much. If you don't have documentation of a fee, don't quote a fee. Remember, after you're list little deletion fest, the rules have changed here. Tuggers will be able to call you on your false predictions this time around. 





> [*]First come/first served with 24/7 access and the day starts at Midnight EST


It does now. No change that I can see
Delinquent MFs force suspension of account and reservations; reactivation fee charged after MF paid [/quote]
I don't believe there is a grace period now either. In fact, some systems won't allow you to deposit/exchange your week unless future MF's have been paid. 





> [*]Exchange fee $179


Another scary number that isn't base on fact. You're way off base. I don't know of any points based system where the internal exchange fee is higher than Interval's. Can you name one? I bet you can't and there's a reason for that. Internal exchange systems are set up to ENCOURAGE internal exchanges. Charging more than the outside exchange companies has the opposite effect. Again, I'm certain your numbers are not only a guess but a very unreasonable guess at that. 





> [*]Once a reservation is made its yours - you can't rent it but can gift it to someone - don't count on redepositing your Points back


No basis in fact. Other systems still allow for rentals. You're just whipping up scare tactics again with no basis in fact. You're showing a lack of knowledge of other points based reservations systems. 





> [*]Deposit first - no peeking to see if there is anything left but Bronze weeks
> [*]Resales force instant cancellation of all reservations for the unit sold with all Points lost and Marriott gets them (just for the sold unit)


One last prediction that I predict won't be true at all. 



> These are guesses on my part but they should be close for an antagonistic timeshare company.  There will be fees coming out of the woodwork.
> 
> Folks, the devil will be in the detail and it ain't going to be in anyone's favor but Marriott...



If you're going to guess, I'd suggest you take some time to study how other points based systems are being run in the U.S. market. I'm guessing the majority of your guesses are way off base. A system like that woudln't be competitive in the U.S. market. In fact, it would be laughed at. 

Stop playing chicken little. The sky is NOT falling.


----------



## m61376

Latravel said:


> How could you see problems when we haven't seen the program yet?
> 
> I'm sure all those high priced Marriott experts whose education and experience revolves around this type of development have thought of all the things we could possibly think of.



Heidi- I am not trying to be a doom and gloom prognosticator. Since Marriott has already rolled out a polnts system elsewhere that I personally feel would be bad for most owners and also looking at what Fletch posted as at least being highly considered (as in no home resort advantage, etc.), I think it is realistic to say that I think that there likely will be problems. I just think it is going to be very hard to revamp a functioning system after the fact, because changes likely will create winners and losers.

I can't say definitively of course- and I never said that there would be problems- I said that there would likely be problems. One very big issue which others have alluded to is that they bought with the expectation of week for week exchanges. Many may like points for days, but I'm guessing that those without enough points for a week's stay- perhaps 3 days when they previously had managed to trade Orlando for Hawaii (and don't forget- since Hawaii is Platinum all year the point requirement for a Sept. week will probably be the same as for a July week) and get a week's vacation will not be too thrilled with the program. Again, that's my guess.


----------



## PerryM

*The dream goes on*



dougp26364 said:


> I don't see this happening. I know of no system that has this requirement and this would likely be unique to Marriott if it did happen.
> 
> Not a big leap on this one. Basically this is a constant throughout point systems which reflects the value of certain seasons within the system. It's why bronze weeks are sold for less than Platinum weeks.
> Again an unreasonable assumption. While the management company does have more control over the points inventory, you are assuming that the management company will not co-mingle inventory. I see Marriott keeping the owner inventory the same and allowing owners to book weeks on a first come, first served basis.
> Again absolutely no reason to assume this. I know of no other points based system that forbids rentals unless it's for commercial purposes. Marriott already forbids rentals in it's current system for commercial purposes. I see no changes being made to this.
> Probably a reasonable assumption but, just because they can, assuming they'll take all the best weeks for their own purposes is unreasonable. No other points based system has this complaint from owners. In fact, I have just the opposite opinion in the two points based systems I participate in. I can get premium weeks easily at my home resorts and stand a much better chance of getting them at the remainder of the resorts in the system. Hawaiin exchanges have been relatively easy to see and get. Holiday weeks that aren't event weeks have been easy to get. High season weeks have been easy to reserve. Marriott's current system has many owners complaining that they can't get a summer week at their own resort. I believe a points based reservation system will resolve this issue, not create it.  You're pulling a figure out of the air and it's a rather high figure. My feeling is this is a scare tactic on your part. Can you name any points based system that charges that much?
> Again, name a system that charges that much. If you don't have documentation of a fee, don't quote a fee. Remember, after you're list little deletion fest, the rules have changed here. Tuggers will be able to call you on your false predictions this time around.
> It does now. No change that I can see
> [*]Delinquent MFs force suspension of account and reservations; reactivation fee charged after MF paid


I don't believe there is a grace period now either. In fact, some systems won't allow you to deposit/exchange your week unless future MF's have been paid. 
Another scary number that isn't base on fact. You're way off base. I don't know of any points based system where the internal exchange fee is higher than Interval's. Can you name one? I bet you can't and there's a reason for that. Internal exchange systems are set up to ENCOURAGE internal exchanges. Charging more than the outside exchange companies has the opposite effect. Again, I'm certain your numbers are not only a guess but a very unreasonable guess at that. 
No basis in fact. Other systems still allow for rentals. You're just whipping up scare tactics again with no basis in fact. You're showing a lack of knowledge of other points based reservations systems.  
One last prediction that I predict won't be true at all. 
[/LIST]



If you're going to guess, I'd suggest you take some time to study how other points based systems are being run in the U.S. market. I'm guessing the majority of your guesses are way off base. A system like that woudln't be competitive in the U.S. market. In fact, it would be laughed at. 

Stop playing chicken little. The sky is NOT falling.[/QUOTE]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm just one Marriott owner with a single Gold Week at Summit Watch so this new scheme will have a HUGE impact on me - I mean HUGE.


In the past 5+ years I've exchanged my Gold Week at Summit Watch to 3 years at the Maui Ocean Club and 1 Christmas week at Summit Watch and 1 Christmas week at MountainSide.

The new exchange scheme will stop that in its tracks - I am going to get screwed by this.  This was the reason I bought a resale Gold Summit Watch and the reason I'll sell it at a loss when the scheme is implemented.

I paid $5,500 for the Gold Summit Watch and stay at Marriotts that they charge $60,000+ and pay 50% more in MFs.

No other Marriott owner wanted those weeks in II for 24 days and those weeks were going into the general II pool and I got the weeks instead.  What's wrong with that?

I'm doing my part by presenting a "Worst Cane Scenario" since I believe this will have a VERY negative impact on me and thousands of other Marriott owners.

Others are perfectly ok to present Marriott's side - the best thing to happen to Marriott owners since the timeshare was cooked up in Europe.

For a Fortune 500 company to spread the same rumor for 4+ years means that it's going to be onerous to Marriott Owners.  If it was going to be a great thing for us owners it would be kept secret and released at the proper moment - the time when it would boost owner relations with Marriott.

Instead, Marriott's agents, the timeshare salesreps, have been threatening owners and possible customers with threats of doom and gloom for the resale market.  This can't be good for Marriott owners.

But to those folks who wear rose-colored glasses and view the glass as half full keep dreaming.....keep dreaming...


----------



## pwrshift

I own 6 platinum weeks, 10 weeks with lockoff splits, but would never participate in any points based program where any of my weeks would not trade for the same time at other resorts.  On the other hand, I bought where I wanted to use and usually the only trades I do are to upgrade a studio to a 1 or 2 bdrm in my home resorts.  Can't see any points program of any benefit to me.

Brian


----------



## Latravel

Besides our Marriott timeshares, we own another points based program and we really enjoy it.  Just for some ideas for our discussion....

In this points based system, a point is a point.  It doesn't matter from which timeshare you got those points as they all hold equal weight.  There is no reserving of a week and depositing one year in advance.  All you have to do is see if the week you want is available and if you have enough points. 

The advantage is you can reserve by day or by week.  If you want to take a 5 day trip to NYC (which we do) it "costs" less points that a 7 nt stay.

Another perk to a points based program is that any inventory left within 60 day (like our flexchange), there is a reduced number of points needed to get the week.  As a comparison, a week somewhere may be 50-80,000 points but any week left in inventory within 60 days is only 7500-9000 points.  The point "cost" is never more than 9000 points.

Maintenance fees are based on the number of points you have.  If you have 100K points per year, you will pay more MF than someone who has 32K points per year.

Maybe we are open to seeing what Marriott is offering because we have some experience with a points system and like it. Then again, we never had anything to compare it to.  Like M has said before, it is difficult to revamp an existing program.


----------



## sdtugger

*High Demand Weeks*

Not only do I wonder about the trade availability for high demand weeks in a new system, I also wonder about the availability of reservations under the old system for high demand weeks after a new system is installed. 

I see some huge areas for potential Marriott mischief.  If a Hawaii platinum week owner decides to join the new program, what week will Marriott take from inventory for that owner?  If Marriott decides that all new program weeks will come from week 52 and then week 51, and then summer, and then Presidents day, etc., there will be a revolt and it won't be pretty.

Marriott (if you are reading):  If this new trading scheme messes up my ability to reserve the same high demand week that I've been reserving for years, I will not be a happy camper and I'm sure I won't be alone.  Home use rights are guaranteed by deed and I think Marriott will have a losing lawsuit on their hands if they do anything that diminishes those rights.

I'm trying to find something positive about this potential new system, I really am . . .


----------



## DanCali

sdtugger said:


> If a Hawaii platinum week owner decides to join the new program, what week will Marriott take from inventory for that owner?



Week 26 or 52... 

This should already be a concern - what are they reserving now when people convert to hotel points?

With Starwood, they have a clause allowing them to reserve units based on anticipated hotel point conversions (SVO retail/requal owners can convert by March 31 and Elite Owners by June or October) as well as anticipated II deposits (Starwood chooses the weeks to deposit into II). See this link....

Not sure how it's handled by Marriott, but they weren't born yesterday...

This is what a points system does. It makes the management company more flexible in skimming off the top under the disguise of more flexibility to owners. My guess is many owners will like it because they won't see what's going on. Many owners will also hate it due to loss of "trading power" of gold/silver/bronze weeks (e.g Perry). My guess it many tuggers will be disgusted for other reasons when they read the fine print...

Marriott is not out to please minority of owners who are also tuggers... but I hope the prospect of 200,000+ dissatisfied owners makes them rethink the wisdom of this (if it's being considered at all...)


----------



## rsackett

I may be naive but the only thing that worries me about Marriott rolling out a new "Internal Exchange System" is if Marriott decides that this is THE internal exchange system and eliminates the Marriott preference period in II.

Ray


----------



## dougp26364

> I'm just one Marriott owner with a single Gold Week at Summit Watch so this new scheme will have a HUGE impact on me - I mean HUGE.



I'm sorry but, how do you KNOW it's going to have any impact on your ownership at all? Have you actually seen the plans? If you have then you must be someone special because no one else on these forums has seen anything.

I can agree that there is the potential for a impact but, I can't agree that it's going to be anything huge. The reason being is that one points based system I'm in has a variety of owners. Some deeded weeks that trade the traditional way. Some points based exchange. Some are trust based ownerships. If I had left my deeded weeks outside the points based system, there was NO impact. I would have just kept exchanging them the way they were. NO CHANGES AND NO IMPACT. You're assuming WAY to much and being very dramatic about it. 




> In the past 5+ years I've exchanged my Gold Week at Summit Watch to 3 years at the Maui Ocean Club and 1 Christmas week at Summit Watch and 1 Christmas week at MountainSide.
> 
> The new exchange scheme will stop that in its tracks - I am going to get screwed by this.  This was the reason I bought a resale Gold Summit Watch and the reason I'll sell it at a loss when the scheme is implemented.



Again, how do you KNOW this. They haven't announced any new system as of yet. There is no way to know that this will happen. You're seeing shadows on the wall and not anything of substance. Much like the exchange figures you've pulled out of the air, you're all worried about something that HAS NOT happened. The impact could be minimal and, my bet is you'll have a choice. You're fear is you'll have either no choice or, you're afraid Marriott is going to soak you for fee's you're not willing to pay. 

I had a choice with DRI. Stay as I was or pay $2,995 to join their points based system. I sat down, looked at what I had accomplished in the past. I looked at what it would have taken to accomplish the same thing in their points based system. Judged the TRUE impact ant THEN made my decision on whether it was a good thing or a bad thing. YOU CAN NOT MAKE DEFINITVIE STATEMENTS UNTIL YOU KNOW THE FACTS! 



> I paid $5,500 for the Gold Summit Watch and stay at Marriotts that they charge $60,000+ and pay 50% more in MFs.
> 
> No other Marriott owner wanted those weeks in II for 24 days and those weeks were going into the general II pool and I got the weeks instead.  What's wrong with that?



Nothing unless as a direct buyer, you're jealous. I have read it before that owners in the Marriott system feel that, if Marriott only had the points based system HGVC has, they'd be the best system in the world. What's wrong with that? 





> I'm doing my part by presenting a "Worst Cane Scenario" since I believe this will have a VERY negative impact on me and thousands of other Marriott owners.



More like you're grabbing at straws and tilting at windmills. Your panicing when panic isn't warrented. Something is likely to happen. Exactly what that is none of us know. Like Fletch stated, you're reading far more into this than there is at this point. Timeshare changes. You should know that. It has changed drastically since we bought our first unit back in 1998. The trend has become internal systems and those systems favor points based reservations. It is very likely that Marriott will embrace that sort of system and it appears it will be sooner than later. Until we actually can see the program, there is no worst case scenario. There are just unwarrented assumptions that aren't based on any fact. Everything you're posting is FICTION based on your irrational fear that Marriott is out to get you. I promise you there is no sign hanging at Marriott headquarters that says let's get the resale buyers and stick it to them as bad as we can. I just don't bleiever there aren't that many resale buyers for them to be concerned about. 





> Others are perfectly ok to present Marriott's side - the best thing to happen to Marriott owners since the timeshare was cooked up in Europe.



So tell me, what is Marriott's side? I don't know. I'm certain you don't know. I'm pretty certain that the only people posting here that have half a clue would be DaveM and Fletch and Fletch has already stated people are over reacting. At this point there are no sides. Only speculation and guessing. 





> For a Fortune 500 company to spread the same rumor for 4+ years means that it's going to be onerous to Marriott Owners.  If it was going to be a great thing for us owners it would be kept secret and released at the proper moment - the time when it would boost owner relations with Marriott.
> 
> Instead, Marriott's agents, the timeshare salesreps, have been threatening owners and possible customers with threats of doom and gloom for the resale market.  This can't be good for Marriott owners.
> 
> But to those folks who wear rose-colored glasses and view the glass as half full keep dreaming.....keep dreaming...



Again back to the salesmen. What's the number one rule of a timeshare sales presentation? If their lips are moving, they're lying. 

Of course they'll spread rumors. They are comissioned sales people. If they don't sell prospects they don't eat. I don't like to mention the R word in a presentation because the conversation takes on a entirely different meaning then. It's at that point they try to put the fear of the system into me and make me feel I'm not worthy unless I buy from them. It's a guilt trip or scare tactic and nothing more. Looks like they got you steppin' pretty darn good.


----------



## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> ... Of course they'll spread rumors. They are comissioned sales people. If they don't sell prospects they don't eat. I don't like to mention the R word in a presentation because the conversation takes on a entirely different meaning then. It's at that point they try to put the fear of the system into me and make me feel I'm not worthy unless I buy from them. It's a guilt trip or scare tactic and nothing more. Looks like they got you steppin' pretty darn good.



I must be either really naive, really lucky, or living in some alternate universe!  Because during our sales presentations we specifically asked about any differences between the Marriott-direct and external-resale products, both what was current and what could be in the future.  We wanted to get those answers!

And as unbelievable as it sounds, our rep was completely honest in her answers!  "Currently only the ability to exchange for MRP, in the future only what isn't specifically prohibited by the contracts but I don't know of anything in the pipeline."  (And of course, some related stuff about how she had been able to take some "fantabulous!" trips with MRP, and the current values at the time for MRP, and the fact that the MRP points were set and the MRP exchange option wasn't guaranteed for the life of the ownership - but nothing there either that turned out to be a lie.)

Why shouldn't the reps say if something is in the pipeline?  I understand they shouldn't lie, that's a given, but why shouldn't they be able to say today that Marriott is and has been strongly considering an internal exchange system which may impact weeks on the resale market more than weeks available from the developer?  Yes, it will potentially scare off somebody who rightly thinks, "why in my right mind would I buy ANYthing before this is either tabled or rolled out?!"  But if it's the truth, and at this point it does seem to be a strong consideration, it may also potentially lead any buyers back to Marriott when/if it's rolled out and the buyer realizes that a developer week will have more usage value than a resale week for his/her vacationing needs.  I want that honesty from the sales reps (not the lies and exaggerations that hurt the product,) and don't want them to simply say nothing about all this and try to sell as if nothing big might be happening.  That's as dishonest, IMO.


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> I must be either really naive, really lucky, or living in some alternate universe!  Because during our sales presentations we specifically asked about any differences between the Marriott-direct and external-resale products, both what was current and what could be in the future.  We wanted to get those answers!
> 
> And as unbelievable as it sounds, our rep was completely honest in her answers!  *"Currently only the ability to exchange for MRP, in the future only what isn't specifically prohibited by the contracts but I don't know of anything in the pipeline."*  (And of course, some related stuff about how she had been able to take some "fantabulous!" trips with MRP, and the current values at the time for MRP, and the fact that the MRP points were set and the MRP exchange option wasn't guaranteed for the life of the ownership - but nothing there either that turned out to be a lie.)
> 
> Why shouldn't the reps say if something is in the pipeline?  I understand they shouldn't lie, that's a given, but why shouldn't they be able to say today that Marriott is and has been strongly considering an internal exchange system which may impact weeks on the resale market more than weeks available from the developer?  Yes, it will potentially scare off somebody who rightly thinks, "why in my right mind would I buy ANYthing before this is either tabled or rolled out?!"  But if it's the truth, and at this point it does seem to be a strong consideration, it may also potentially lead any buyers back to Marriott when/if it's rolled out and the buyer realizes that a developer week will have more usage value than a resale week for his/her vacationing needs.  I want that honesty from the sales reps (not the lies and exaggerations that hurt the product,) and don't want them to simply say nothing about all this and try to sell as if nothing big might be happening.  That's as dishonest, IMO.



This is what Marriott should have been saying for 4+ years and not the garbage they spew now.

Marriott management has know of this all along and fosters the rumors - this is despicable for a Fortune 500 company; but not for the typical sleazy timeshare organization.


----------



## sdtugger

SueDonJ said:


> But if it's the truth, and at this point it does seem to be a strong consideration, it may also potentially lead any buyers back to Marriott when/if it's rolled out and the buyer realizes that a developer week will have more usage value than a resale week for his/her vacationing needs.



What increased "usage value" do you see with the new system for developer weeks (or resale weeks that pay a higher fee)?  I'm sincerely asking here.  I've described my concerns that high demand weeks will not be available for trade.  If that's true, what is the increased usage value?


----------



## SueDonJ

SueDonJ said:


> ... "Currently only the ability to exchange for MRP, in the future only what isn't specifically prohibited by the contracts but I don't know of anything in the pipeline." ...





PerryM said:


> This is what Marriott should have been saying for 4+ years and not the garbage they spew now. ...



Well, Perry, then they'd be lying, because it's pretty much a given that something IS in the pipeline.  Which is why I want them to be saying this -


> ... Marriott is and has been strongly considering an internal exchange system which may impact weeks on the resale market more than weeks available from the developer ...


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> But if it's the truth, and at this point it does seem to be a strong consideration, it may also potentially lead any buyers back to Marriott when/if it's rolled out and *the buyer realizes that a developer week will have more usage value than a resale week *for his/her vacationing needs.



The day this happens is the day resale prices really start free falling... and buyers would be foolish to buy into a system where what they buy depreciates by 95% after 8 or 11 days...


----------



## SueDonJ

SueDonJ said:


> ... But if it's the truth, and at this point it does seem to be a strong consideration, it may also potentially lead any buyers back to Marriott when/if it's rolled out and the buyer realizes that a developer week will have more usage value than a resale week for his/her vacationing needs. ...





sdtugger said:


> What increased "usage value" do you see with the new system for developer weeks (or resale weeks that pay a higher fee)?  I'm sincerely asking here.  I've described my concerns that high demand weeks will not be available for trade.  If that's true, what is the increased usage value?



Oh.  That is confusing, sorry.  I'm not thinking of any specific usage value because no details are available.  I'm just thinking that the possibility exists that after (if) a new plan is rolled out, some potential owners might reach the conclusion that a developer week would work better for them depending on how they would use their ownership.

That's why I said it "may" lead an owner to a developer week.  Does it make my thinking any more clear if I change the wording up there and add, "...consideration, *it may lead some buyers to still buy resale, but* it may also ...?"


----------



## SueDonJ

We all pretty much agree that there was a time when purchasing from the developer could make sense, right?  When specific desired inventory wasn't available on the resale market, when MRP exchange was more valuable and/or considered by certain buyers to be a benefit for their usage needs, when the overall resale market wasn't as severely depressed as it is now, when purchase incentives were more valuable ...?  Can we at least agree on that?

So why is it so far beyond the realm of possibility for some now to believe that Marriott could be developing a plan whereby some owners will be able to find usage value in a developer purchase again?  And why is it assumed automatically that adding value to developer purchases will "destroy" and "decimate" the resale market?  That didn't happen when the above was the norm, did it?

What if the new exchange system does turn out to be as simple as an overlay points exchange system with a $1K cost to add a resale week?  We all choose whether or not to join, our home resort usage stays the same, and sellers on the resale market absorb that $1K cost.  That's not a "destroyed" resale market.

What if it's a system that offers increased MRP-exchange value and purchase incentives to developer conversions/purchasers, while at the same time allowing similar internal exchange opportunities that we get now with II, but they work out the kinks so that it's an instant exchange system?  That would be perfect for some folks but wouldn't impact the resale market to a drastic extent either.  

I love DVC's point system.  Love it!  If Marriott rolled out a similar plan with home resort priorities, the ability to combine everything owned to one total points package, different point values assigned to home resort ownership as well as exchange options based on resort/#BR/view/season, banking and borrowing options ... I'd look very seriously at it, even if what I own might not get me the same week-for-week currently available in II.  Add in that it would be an RTU-conversion and I'd be in heaven, because then my kids won't get saddled with a financial commitment.  That would be perfect usage value for me, and I'd happily pay an initiation fee as well as consider future developer purchases.

All this to say, I don't think a new internal exchange system will be the end of the timesharing world as we know it, or that we all may as well kiss the dollars we've invested in timesharing good-bye because Marriott's on the verge of imploding.    I'm excited to see what they might come up with, and really don't understand the doom-and-gloom panic here.


----------



## Pit

SueDonJ said:


> Well, Perry, then they'd be lying, because it's pretty much a given that something IS in the pipeline.  Which is why I want them to be saying this -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... Marriott is and has been strongly considering an internal exchange system which may impact weeks on the resale market more than weeks available from the developer ...
Click to expand...


It would be more accurate if they said this ...



> ... Marriott is and has been strongly considering an internal exchange system which will devalue all weeks sold on the resale market. Owners who purchased from the developer will see a larger decline in value due to the higher price paid at the time of purchase ...



but, I won't hold my breath.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*No Time, No Way, No How.*




SueDonJ said:


> We all pretty much agree that there was a time when purchasing from the developer could make sense, right?


No way, José. 

Nothing the timeshare companies sell at full freight is _ever_ worth the money, period. 

Buy timeshares resale.  Save thousands of dollars on excactly the same thing, or the equivalent, or something even better. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## m61376

Doug- I was wondering- in the system you mentioned where there were converted point weeks and where others retained their week ownership- how did that impact the MF's? IF Plat. week owners get more points than Bronze week owners (which probably is a given) and IF MF's are charged per point, that Plat. owner that converted to points would be paying more than the Bronze week owner, and theoretically the Plat. week owner's MF's would rise and the Bronze week owner's decrease. What about the Plat. or Bronze week owner that chooses not to convert? What happens to their MF's- can you have a situation where a converted Plat. week pays more than a non-converted Plat. week and a converted Bronze week pays less than a non-converted Bronze week? The MF issue is I guess my biggest concern when a new program is superimposed on an old.

I am not saying that point based systems don't have their merits- just that superimposing one on a functioning system may be fraught with issues.


----------



## lovearuba

*C'mon*



SueDonJ said:


> I must be either really naive, really lucky, or living in some alternate universe! Because during our sales presentations we specifically asked about any differences between the Marriott-direct and external-resale products, both what was current and what could be in the future. We wanted to get those answers!
> 
> And as unbelievable as it sounds, our rep was completely honest in her answers! "Currently only the ability to exchange for MRP, in the future only what isn't specifically prohibited by the contracts but I don't know of anything in the pipeline." (And of course, some related stuff about how she had been able to take some "fantabulous!" trips with MRP, and the current values at the time for MRP, and the fact that the MRP points were set and the MRP exchange option wasn't guaranteed for the life of the ownership - but nothing there either that turned out to be a lie.)
> 
> 
> Why shouldn't the reps say if something is in the pipeline? I understand they shouldn't lie, that's a given, but why shouldn't they be able to say today that Marriott is and has been strongly considering an internal exchange system which may impact weeks on the resale market more than weeks available from the developer? Yes, it will potentially scare off somebody who rightly thinks, "why in my right mind would I buy ANYthing before this is either tabled or rolled out?!" But if it's the truth, and at this point it does seem to be a strong consideration, it may also potentially lead any buyers back to Marriott when/if it's rolled out and the buyer realizes that a developer week will have more usage value than a resale week for his/her vacationing needs. I want that honesty from the sales reps (not the lies and exaggerations that hurt the product,) and don't want them to simply say nothing about all this and try to sell as if nothing big might be happening. That's as dishonest, IMO.


 
Can you at least consider that your experience with sales people may not be what some of us experienced.  I know the one I dealt with was a bold face liar and I know he represented Marriott so Marriott is responsible for the boat load of lies they allow them to tell.  Guess I'm a little more than disgruntled.


----------



## PerryM

*Looking from the gutter upwards...*



SueDonJ said:


> Well, Perry, then they'd be lying, because it's pretty much a given that something IS in the pipeline.  Which is why I want them to be saying this -



All Marriott has to do is instruct their minions of salesreps that if they bring up the topic of an "Internal Exchange System" they will be fired on the spot.  There would not be 4 years of rumors scaring Ma and Pa at sales presentation.

Instead Marriott can't hold back and blabs the rumor to anyone listening - why?  And for 4+ years now.

Selling something that you don't have for sale is a stupid sales tactic - you make no sales.

Scaring folks into not dealing with the competition (that would be you and I) is another thing all together - that's what this rumor is all about.

Just you remember that you, the Marriott owner, is Marriott's worst nightmare.

This is gutter marketing tactics from a gutter marketing organization MVCI.


----------



## SueDonJ

lovearuba said:


> Can you at least consider that your experience with sales people may not be what some of us experienced.  I know the one I dealt with was a bold face liar and I know he represented Marriott so Marriott is responsible for the boat load of lies they allow them to tell.  Guess I'm a little more than disgruntled.



Well yeah, I do consider that, which is why whenever I point out that my sales rep was decent, I also say that the rest of them shouldn't lie because it hurts the product.  I'm pretty sure we all want the same thing - salespeople who present the product exactly as it is.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> ... Just you remember that you, the Marriott owner, is Marriott's worst nightmare. ...



Now really, Perry.  I might be near the top of their Worst Nightmare List, but those Week 3 Aruba folks have me beat by a country mile.


----------



## dougp26364

Sue, 

I think the only impact any new program might have on resale buyers is that Marriott might charge them more to join the new program than those that bought developer. Based on what Fletch stated earlier in this thread, it appears that those who bought developer might have to pay a $500 joiner fee while those that bought reslae might have to pay $1,000 or $1,500. 

If an current owner elects not to join how will it affect them? No one, not even Perry, knows. We'll all just have to wait and see. It might be that all who don't join any new program will still enjoy the same benefits of the old program. That is, the 24 day exclusive right to exchange into any Marriott week deposited with Interval. That would include all the points weeks that are deposited for Interval exchanges as well as those in the weeks exchange program. 

At this point, I wouldn't consider any of the speculation or predictions about what the program might look like. It could be a lot of different things and it might not be any of the things discussed here on this thread. The one person closest to the action stated we were all over thinking this thing and that it wasn't going to be as complicated or convuleted as we're making it.

Some are focused on what the salesmen have said at the round table in an attempt to scare them into buying developer weeks rather than resale. It didn't scare them into buying developer weeks but, it did scare them. It's a shame that anyone would let what a TS salesman said in a sale interview disturb them so much that it caused this much worry.


----------



## dougp26364

SueDonJ said:


> Well yeah, I do consider that, which is why whenever I point out that my sales rep was decent, I also say that the rest of them shouldn't lie because it hurts the product.  I'm pretty sure we all want the same thing - salespeople who present the product exactly as it is.



But then they wouldn't be timeshare salesmen.  

They all lie or, at the very least, don't know their product because they don't own it or they own it because the company says they have to own at least one week but they don't actually use it. 

There are simply different degree's of truth stretchers in my opinion. In the past, Marriott and Hilton sales reps had been amongst the best at low pressure and keeping the facts mostly straight. Lately though, not so much. I won't ever set foot on a Hilton timeshare floor after our last experience. For the most part I've had little trouble with Marriott sales people other than they really didn't know their product as well as they should. I have overheard other salesmen on the floor telling some whoppers while we were talking with our representative.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> Doug- I was wondering- in the system you mentioned where there were converted point weeks and where others retained their week ownership- how did that impact the MF's? IF Plat. week owners get more points than Bronze week owners (which probably is a given) and IF MF's are charged per point, that Plat. owner that converted to points would be paying more than the Bronze week owner, and theoretically the Plat. week owner's MF's would rise and the Bronze week owner's decrease. What about the Plat. or Bronze week owner that chooses not to convert? What happens to their MF's- can you have a situation where a converted Plat. week pays more than a non-converted Plat. week and a converted Bronze week pays less than a non-converted Bronze week? The MF issue is I guess my biggest concern when a new program is superimposed on an old.
> 
> I am not saying that point based systems don't have their merits- just that superimposing one on a functioning system may be fraught with issues.



The HOA still sets the MF's. It doesn't matter if you own a deeded week that was converted to points or a deeded week that wasn't converted to points. they all pay the same MF.

The trust based ownership is different. In the trust based points system, all of the MF's from all weeks deposited into the trust are added together, then divided by the total number of points to get the cost per point. The advantage is that the MF's are supposed to be diluted and you pay an average of all the resorts in the trust.

I don't see Marriott going to a trust based ownership but, I haven't seen their idea of a points based internal exchange program. I suppose it is a possiblity but, mentioning is likely to set some off on a tangent never before seen on TUG.

What you're talking about most resembles the Hilton system. That is were all two bedroom owners pay the same MF regardless of what season they own. A two bedroom Gold season recieves 5,000 points yet a 2 bedroom Platinum season recieves 7,000 points. Both own a 2 bedroom unit and both pay the same MF for their 2 bedroom unit. 

The difference is in the sales price. It for this reason that it's usually recomended that you only consider platinum weeks on the resale market since you'll be paying the same MF regardless of how many points you buy. A bronze, gold and platinum 2 bedroom units MF's are the same no matter what the point total.

Marriott already does this with most of their timeshares. My 3 bedroom Silver season week at Ocean Pointe has the same MF's that the Platinum owner pays. The only difference is that the property taxes are divided up a little differently. As a Silver season owner, I pay a lower amount of the property taxes than does a Platinum owner. 

Of course I paid several thousand less up front to buy that Silver season week. I expect that because I own a silver season week it will have fewer points alloted than the Platinum week. When you think about it, Interval gives those Silver season weeks lower trade power than Platinum weeks right now anyway. It's not like I'm losing anything from the way it stands now.


----------



## dougp26364

SueDonJ said:


> I must be either really naive, really lucky, or living in some alternate universe!  Because during our sales presentations we specifically asked about any differences between the Marriott-direct and external-resale products, both what was current and what could be in the future.  We wanted to get those answers!
> 
> And as unbelievable as it sounds, our rep was completely honest in her answers!  "Currently only the ability to exchange for MRP, in the future only what isn't specifically prohibited by the contracts but I don't know of anything in the pipeline."  (And of course, some related stuff about how she had been able to take some "fantabulous!" trips with MRP, and the current values at the time for MRP, and the fact that the MRP points were set and the MRP exchange option wasn't guaranteed for the life of the ownership - but nothing there either that turned out to be a lie.)
> 
> Why shouldn't the reps say if something is in the pipeline?  I understand they shouldn't lie, that's a given, but why shouldn't they be able to say today that Marriott is and has been strongly considering an internal exchange system which may impact weeks on the resale market more than weeks available from the developer?  Yes, it will potentially scare off somebody who rightly thinks, "why in my right mind would I buy ANYthing before this is either tabled or rolled out?!"  But if it's the truth, and at this point it does seem to be a strong consideration, it may also potentially lead any buyers back to Marriott when/if it's rolled out and the buyer realizes that a developer week will have more usage value than a resale week for his/her vacationing needs.  I want that honesty from the sales reps (not the lies and exaggerations that hurt the product,) and don't want them to simply say nothing about all this and try to sell as if nothing big might be happening.  That's as dishonest, IMO.



Or maybe Perry just brings out the worst in salesmen with his confrontational attitude. Since he won't let go of his dirty Marriott agent attitude, sometimes it's best just to play along. 

For the record, I've had very good luck with Marriott reps. Like I said in an earlier post, I have overheard some Marriott reps laying it on pretty thick. Like you maybe I've just been lucky. I usually leave the R word at home though. I almost always find that I know more about the product than the salesmen. It's been a long time since they've been able to show me a new trick I didn't know.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Just you remember that you, the Marriott owner, is Marriott's worst nightmare.



I think it's your confrontational attitude with timeshare salesmen that gets you all worked up in the first place. If owners are Marriott's worst nightmare then why to they keep trying to increase the number of owners?


----------



## PerryM

*Big guns...*



dougp26364 said:


> I think it's your confrontational attitude with timeshare salesmen that gets you all worked up in the first place. If owners are Marriott's worst nightmare then why to they keep trying to increase the number of owners?



I have the power to sell Marriott timeshares - I don't need to be a real estate agent nor do I need any state sponsored credentials - I can simply list my Gold Summit Watch on eBay and sell it for a fraction of what the salesrep can sell it for.  Then hire a closing firm to handle paperwork and escrow for a few hundred dollars - simple as pie.

I am a competitor of Marriott.

Now I can only do it once for the one week I own but multiply that by 250,000+ Marriott owners and Marriott is out-gunned.

Marriott is so consumed with hatred towards resales that they have spread rumors for 4+ years and are cooking up an exchange system to punish resales.

It's all about resales or the rumors wouldn't mention us.

I believe Marriott's rumors - they are building a huge weapon to take on the resale market.  Especially if they aren't building new resorts and need to buy low priced resales - it all makes sense.

So yes, Marriott fears their owners...


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> The trust based ownership is different. In the trust based points system, all of the MF's from all weeks deposited into the trust are added together, then divided by the total number of points to get the cost per point. The advantage is that the MF's are supposed to be diluted and you pay an average of all the resorts in the trust.
> 
> I don't see Marriott going to a trust based ownership but, I haven't seen their idea of a points based internal exchange program. I suppose it is a possiblity but, mentioning is likely to set some off on a tangent never before seen on TUG.



The only reason I've been bringing this up is it's exactly what Marriott did with the Asia Pacific program. I have no knowledge, of course, that any plan (IF there is any program) will resemble that program, but Fletch did mention a points based program and that there wouldn't be a home resort advantage for making reservations- which seems a bit like the Asia Pacific program.

The impact (if any) on MF's affects all owners, whether or not they elect to join any new system.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I have the power to sell Marriott timeshares - I don't need to be a real estate agent nor do I need any state sponsored credentials - I can simply list my Gold Summit Watch on eBay and sell it for a fraction of what the salesrep can sell it for.  Then hire a closing firm to handle paperwork and escrow for a few hundred dollars - simple as pie.
> 
> I am a competitor of Marriott.
> 
> Now I can only do it once for the one week I own but multiply that by 250,000+ Marriott owners and Marriott is out-gunned.
> 
> Marriott is so consumed with hatred towards resales that they have spread rumors for 4+ years and are cooking up an exchange system to punish resales.
> 
> It's all about resales or the rumors wouldn't mention us.
> 
> I believe Marriott's rumors - they are building a huge weapon to take on the resale market.  Especially if they aren't building new resorts and need to buy low priced resales - it all makes sense.
> 
> So yes, Marriott fears their owners...



Trust me, Marriott is NOT quaking in fear of you and all the other owners. Owners are Marriott's best friend. That's why they continue to sell timeshares and increase the number of owners. Owners are not viewed as competitors because owner resales are not organized. Marriott does not fear owners wanting to sell in mass because they no that it's not going to happen. I don't believe that Marriott is consumed by hatered for any owner. I really think that's just your imagination overwhelming you. 

It's not all about resales. It's all about making that next sale as far as the salesman is concerned. If running down resale purchases by telling you everything you can't do with it or that there might be changes less favorable to resale buyers, salesmen are typically going to try it. The agents, as you call them, of any timeshare developer are going to have some sort of line to try to discourage you from buying resale and buying a retail unit from them. I know Hilton does this and I know DRI has it's agruements against resale units. This is nothing new under the sun and Marriott isn't the evil empire for doing the same thing. You're making it sound as if Marriott is the only  developer to use scare tactics to discourage resale purchases.

You're over estimating your worth and power as far as Marriott is concerned. In fact, I'm sure Marriott couldn't care less if you kept your one week of ownership purchased on the resale market or sold it to someone else.

Here's my predictions since we all seem to be in that frame of mind.

1. Marriott will come out with some sort of points based internal exchange sytem.

2. There will be some fee for current members to join. I'm thinking in the $500 to $1,000 range but it's just a guess. 

3. Marriott will charge resale owners a slightly higher fee to join than those that bought from the developer. I'm thinking in the $1,500 to $3,000 range but it's just a guess

4. All new sales will be automatically placed in the new points program.

5. Those not seeing any benefit to joining the new points program may keep their weeks exactly as they are now.

6. Those that remain in the weeks based program will continue to exchange their weeks just as they have in the past.

7. Marriott will maintain the 24 day exclusive period for Marriott to Marriott weeks exchanges.

8. The internal exchange fee, if there is one, will be minimal and will certainly be less than the external exchange fee charged by Interval. My thoughts are that the fee's, if there are any, will be in the $50 to $75 range. 

9. External Marriott to Marriott exchanges will continue to have a slightly lower fee than the normal Interval exchange fee but, it will be higher than the new internal points exchange fee. 

10. The program will be attractive enough to get a significant number of owners to join. 

It will be interesting to see how close I am to being right. I have nothing to really go on other than personal experience with HGVC's and DRI's points based systems. I don't see Marriott shooting themselves in the foot by alienating owners or putting out a program so unatractive no one once to join. Of course, I could be wrong. Marriott could self implode it's own product like Starwood seems to have done. That would really be a shame but, we did buy our timeshare to use and we were not concerned about the trade value.

The first rule of timeshare that I've learned over the years is that timeshare changes and evolves. It has to in order to keep up with the changes in our society. I can't imagine timeshare being as attractive as it is today if all developers sold were fixed week/fixed unit intervals. Extensive internal exchange systems and points based exchanges have become the new reality. That's just the way it is today. Who knows what it will be like in another 10 years.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> The only reason I've been bringing this up is it's exactly what Marriott did with the Asia Pacific program. I have no knowledge, of course, that any plan (IF there is any program) will resemble that program, but Fletch did mention a points based program and that there wouldn't be a home resort advantage for making reservations- which seems a bit like the Asia Pacific program.
> 
> The impact (if any) on MF's affects all owners, whether or not they elect to join any new system.



You have to remember that the HOA at each resort is responsible for setting the MF's. Marriott is only the management company. Marriott can be fired by the HOA/BOD. This was a possiblity recently at Beachplace Towers as the HOA and Marriott were not in agreement as to how much should be spent on renovations to the units. 

Any impact on MF's will come from the HOA's and not Marriott. It would be difficult for Marriott to retrofit current owners into a trust based ownership rather than a deed base ownership but, I'm sure it could be done. After all, Sunterra managed to do this with their product. But then again, Sunterra went bankrupt.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Trust me, Marriott is NOT quaking in fear of you and all the other owners. Owners are Marriott's best friend. That's why they continue to sell timeshares and increase the number of owners. Owners are not viewed as competitors because owner resales are not organized. Marriott does not fear owners wanting to sell in mass because they no that it's not going to happen. I don't believe that Marriott is consumed by hatered for any owner. I really think that's just your imagination overwhelming you.
> 
> It's not all about resales. It's all about making that next sale as far as the salesman is concerned. If running down resale purchases by telling you everything you can't do with it or that there might be changes less favorable to resale buyers, salesmen are typically going to try it. The agents, as you call them, of any timeshare developer are going to have some sort of line to try to discourage you from buying resale and buying a retail unit from them. I know Hilton does this and I know DRI has it's agruements against resale units. This is nothing new under the sun and Marriott isn't the evil empire for doing the same thing. You're making it sound as if Marriott is the only  developer to use scare tactics to discourage resale purchases.
> 
> You're over estimating your worth and power as far as Marriott is concerned. In fact, I'm sure Marriott couldn't care less if you kept your one week of ownership purchased on the resale market or sold it to someone else.
> 
> Here's my predictions since we all seem to be in that frame of mind.
> 
> 1. Marriott will come out with some sort of points based internal exchange sytem.
> 
> 2. There will be some fee for current members to join. I'm thinking in the $500 to $1,000 range but it's just a guess.
> 
> 3. Marriott will charge resale owners a slightly higher fee to join than those that bought from the developer. I'm thinking in the $1,500 to $3,000 range but it's just a guess
> 
> 4. All new sales will be automatically placed in the new points program.
> 
> 5. Those not seeing any benefit to joining the new points program may keep their weeks exactly as they are now.
> 
> 6. Those that remain in the weeks based program will continue to exchange their weeks just as they have in the past.
> 
> 7. Marriott will maintain the 24 day exclusive period for Marriott to Marriott weeks exchanges.
> 
> 8. The internal exchange fee, if there is one, will be minimal and will certainly be less than the external exchange fee charged by Interval. My thoughts are that the fee's, if there are any, will be in the $50 to $75 range.
> 
> 9. External Marriott to Marriott exchanges will continue to have a slightly lower fee than the normal Interval exchange fee but, it will be higher than the new internal points exchange fee.
> 
> 10. The program will be attractive enough to get a significant number of owners to join.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how close I am to being right. I have nothing to really go on other than personal experience with HGVC's and DRI's points based systems. I don't see Marriott shooting themselves in the foot by alienating owners or putting out a program so unatractive no one once to join. Of course, I could be wrong. Marriott could self implode it's own product like Starwood seems to have done. That would really be a shame but, we did buy our timeshare to use and we were not concerned about the trade value.
> 
> The first rule of timeshare that I've learned over the years is that timeshare changes and evolves. It has to in order to keep up with the changes in our society. I can't imagine timeshare being as attractive as it is today if all developers sold were fixed week/fixed unit intervals. Extensive internal exchange systems and points based exchanges have become the new reality. That's just the way it is today. Who knows what it will be like in another 10 years.



This is great!  We shall see who guessed the best.

Remember that whatever the fee is to join, if it is even allowed, must be doubled since the resale owner pays it to join and when they sell their week the new buyer will demand the owner pay for it again (by way of reduced bid price) so the new owner can exchange their ownership with other owners.

Double whammy...


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Remember that whatever the fee is to join, if it is even allowed, must be doubled since the resale owner pays it to join and when they sell their week the new buyer will demand the owner pay for it again (by way of reduced bid price) so the new owner can exchange their ownership with other owners.
> 
> Double whammy...



Maybe, maybe not. Some of us actually buy a timeshare to use, not to exchange. 

I won't argue that having an additional fee to join will likely hurt resale values. Knowing that there is an extra fee to pay, especially if it's significant, can't help resale values. 

DRI's THE Club puts a similar hurdle in the path of resale buyers. Only with DRI, the reports I've seen lately indicate that one must buy developer inventory rather than pay the joiner fee of $2,995. It's considerably more expensive to buy developer inventory than pay the joiner fee. 

I think almost every points based system puts some sort of hurdle in the way of resale buyers having full access. Hilton is proably the most relaxed in that the only thing resale buyers don't receive is Elite status for resale points. 

Marriott could do like Hilton and treat resale buyers almost like developer buyers. I have to say it would surprise me if they did and, that's not something I'd predict. It's much safer to say that there will be differences in how resale and developer buyers are treated as far as joining any new system. That appears to be the trend of most systems that have converted to points based reservations systems.

I am anxious to see the new product. I'm not saying I'll be jumping for joy when it comes out but, I am curious about how it will work, how much it will cost (if anything) and what benefits there are that I might use. What I'm afraid of is, since we use our Ocean Pointe week every year and only use request first to exchange our Grand Chateau week, the cost won't be worth the benefits. Then again, the points offered for our Platinum two bedroom master suite may be sufficient to get us more than just a week for week exchange and I might be able to get even more value out of our ownership. Cost vs value, that's where the proof will be in any new system. To high of cost with to little value and the product will fail. 

We do trade our studio Ocean Pointe week and our one bedroom lock-out week from our three bedroom Grand Chateau unit. So I do have a vested interest in what effect any changes will have on us. In my worst case scenario, well keep our units as they are now and seek exchanges through I.I. While I've enjoyed using the studio and one bedroom units to exchange for other Marriott properties and would hate to lose that ability, there are other quality resort systems out there that are worthy of exchanging into. I'll just have to change my thought process one more time to incorporate any new reality that comes my way.


----------



## Latravel

How do you guys find the time to post so much?  I can barely read through them all.


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## dougp26364

Latravel said:


> How do you guys find the time to post so much?  I can barely read through them all.



I can't speak for Perry but I don't have a life.


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## lovearuba

*funny*



dougp26364 said:


> I can't speak for Perry but I don't have a life.


 
thanks for the laugh, you should have been on the other post, you would be in good company. Have a great day


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> I think almost every points based system puts some sort of hurdle in the way of resale buyers having full access. Hilton is proably the most relaxed in that the only thing resale buyers don't receive is Elite status for resale points.



What about DVC? Probably not coincidentally, it appears to be the most respected, has retained its value more than the other systems, and treats all owners as, well, valued customers who continue to support the product (by paying on going MF's) and spending money at their facilities while on vacation.

Hopefully Marriott will strive to follow the best rather than emulate the worst- as you said, Starwood appears to be imploding It is not merely due to the disparity between direct and resale purchases, but is at least partially related to having a two tier system.

I think a big issue here is that this is an "after the facts" system. Marriott is superimposing a system (IF it ever does develop the system) on a system that owners have mostly happily been using for years. It is one thing if it was starting anew, and people wouldn't be comparing it to what they had and perceived losses. I think it is a very different animal when you have owners who were enjoying privileges that may not have been specified contractual rights but were perceived as such. 

I do agree with most of what you predicted, btw. Since we're postulating anyway, the only real difference I'd predict is the way they handle resales (and it's not merely a case of wishful thinking, because I don't necessarily think that part of this will be good for any owner, since all owners ultimately stand to lose because of devaluations and potentially MF defaults). It has always made sense to me that current resale owners be grandfathered- it is good for public relations, it is good to get more people on board (the more people join and get the ball rolling, the more successful the new program will be) and Marriott won't make any more sales off of these units anyway (and may get additional future sales from their happy owners). 

While some owners of developer weeks might get perverse satisfaction from resale owners having to pay more, I personally believe the few dollars that Marriott might receive by making the buy-in a little higher for resale owners initially (and, if it is higher, I do believe the difference would be at most $1000 as Fletch suggested) would be outweighed by the ill will that would be generated. Again, while only 7% of all units are resales, since many people own both developer purchased and resale weeks, the percentage of owners being affected is likely considerably higher and worthwhile keeping happy as Marriott customers. Even without that, no company wants to alienate even 7% of its customers overnight; it just doesn't make good business sense.

I do think future resale owners will be charged a higher price, and I think it will be higher than 1K (although I would like it to be kept low). I think the price difference will depend on whether or not they charge a flat fee to convert (which is the simpler way of handling it) or a per point fee (more logistically difficult, but might make it more attractive for lower value weeks to join). The problem with the flat fee is that lower priced weeks (which likely will be awarded lower point values) would be just too expensive to join. That brings up the issue is what will happen to those weeks IF the internal trading system is successful. IF they are no longer deemed useful by their owners, will we have widespread forfeiture and defaults (look at Starwood) with escalating MF's to cover unpaid dues? 

I also am sure that Marriott isn't doing any of this- IF they do do anything- out of the goodness of their heart. There certainly will be exchange fees, but presumably, at least initially, less than II's. And they will sell it as a one time fee to join rather than II's annual dues (neglecting to point out that if people still want to trade externally they'll have to join II anyway).

As for who will join- it depends upon the details. IF they don't retain home resort advantage (as Fletch suggested) I don't think even Platinum week owners will be running to join. People who bought where they like to go most of the time will want to continue their preference at their home resort. If they do, I suspect that the owners of those premium properties will be the first to convert, depending upon the way points are assigned. I think Gold week owners at most properties and lower seasons will be very reluctant to join. IF I am right, then then whole system can get stuck- because the only benefit to Plat. week owners (aside from trading to other Plat. properties) is to get more days at lower demand times- but if they're not part of the new system, they're not available to book. So that's a big issue.

The other issue- which I haven't seem brought up- is what impact will that new change in Reward categories have (if any)? Will Marriott be valuing the different Hawaii resorts differently in their timeshare points program as they do in their Rewards points program? When you look over that list, it does present an interesting view of how Marriott evaluates the demand for its own properties. Those category 7 owners may be at the top of the heap here and category 5 owners of some properties considered premium may find themselves falling a bit short.


----------



## GregT

dougp26364 said:


> Here's my predictions since we all seem to be in that frame of mind.
> 
> 1. Marriott will come out with some sort of points based internal exchange sytem.
> 
> 2. There will be some fee for current members to join. I'm thinking in the $500 to $1,000 range but it's just a guess.
> 
> 3. Marriott will charge resale owners a slightly higher fee to join than those that bought from the developer. I'm thinking in the $1,500 to $3,000 range but it's just a guess
> 
> 4. All new sales will be automatically placed in the new points program.
> 
> 5. Those not seeing any benefit to joining the new points program may keep their weeks exactly as they are now.
> 
> 6. Those that remain in the weeks based program will continue to exchange their weeks just as they have in the past.
> 
> 7. Marriott will maintain the 24 day exclusive period for Marriott to Marriott weeks exchanges.
> 
> 8. The internal exchange fee, if there is one, will be minimal and will certainly be less than the external exchange fee charged by Interval. My thoughts are that the fee's, if there are any, will be in the $50 to $75 range.
> 
> 9. External Marriott to Marriott exchanges will continue to have a slightly lower fee than the normal Interval exchange fee but, it will be higher than the new internal points exchange fee.
> 
> 10. The program will be attractive enough to get a significant number of owners to join.



Doug,

I agree with your prediction almost point for point -- my only addition is that there has to be some "modest" annual fee to remain in the points program, like $89/year, to allow for Marriott to have a recurring revenue stream -- or perhaps this was your reference in #8 to the internal exchange fee.  I do think it will be an annual fee not just a reservation fee so that even if you don't use your points (and bank them or borrow them) you still pay the fee.

Perry,

Your posts are always thought-provoking and often entertaining, but I suspect part of the frustration on this point is that you've mastered the ability to maximize the trade power of your Gold unit and Marriott's tinkering may jeopardize that.   (And you've mastered Worldmark too, the knowledge from which has greatly benefited me!  Thanks!).  

I don't think Marriott ever intended to create a system that allowed someone to trade up so easily ---- especially without them being able to "dip their beak" in the successful trade. 

Accordingly, I don't think they have it out for resale owners, we probably don't register much in their minds at all, except to the sales folks who detest resale as a competitor.  But I think Marriott is trying to figure out how to get a more stable revenue stream out of the property base (which benefits them).  Separately, they probably think this is an improvement and offering flexibility that they've probably gotten customer feedback on "boy I wish you had a points system".   Finally, it is definitely a sales tool -- when on the HGVC tour, the sales person did not hesitate to emphasize to me that you can buy points in Vegas and trade to Big Island.

We will see -- I'm glad to own fixed weeks (though who knows what they are really worth) that are deeded -- and I believe properties with deeds will have greater value than points.

Thanks and good luck to all!


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... The other issue- which I haven't seem brought up- is what impact will that new change in Reward categories have (if any)? Will Marriott be valuing the different Hawaii resorts differently in their timeshare points program as they do in their Rewards points program? When you look over that list, it does present an interesting view of how Marriott evaluates the demand for its own properties. Those category 7 owners may be at the top of the heap here and category 5 owners of some properties considered premium may find themselves falling a bit short.



m, I dunno.  I think what Heidi says about how point values are assigned in the MRP system - that they fluctuate based on how many redemptions are made so that high/low demand is reflected in the current MRP cost - doesn't really translate well to the MVCI model.  That hotel system must make allowances for too many economic values that are independent of timesharing.  For instance, during a depressed tourism industry like what we have now the timeshare folks are still trying their darndest to get to their resorts, while the typical hotel travelers are putting their vacations on hold.  

I expect that the point values assigned to the MVCI resorts will correlate to the developer pricing structure (regardless of the resale market, which Marriott does not control,) m/f costs, and overall exchange demand (based on long-term tourism trends.)  Simply, the more expensive weeks to own will probably have higher exchange point values.  And yes, it will mean that the newer resorts will always have higher point values.  I know that's a fear of some, that owning an older/less expensive week will not allow for an equal number of days in the newer/more expensive resorts, but that's how I expect it will work here.  Honestly, it seems fair to me that my 2BR Barony week might only be able to exchange for 4 days into a 2BR at Maui, or 7 days in a studio at Maui, etc...

Heidi, you can put me in the No Life Camp, too.  (Hi Doug!)  It's busy season for Don so I'm a tax widow, and there aren't too many brides who think about lovely white dresses and bright fall days during the February doldrums.  The spring brides get everything done before the winter holidays, but by late-March I'll have a life again.


----------



## m61376

Sue- To a certain degree, I'm guessing that the point assignment will reflect pricing, MF's perhaps and demand. I may be wrong, but I think initially how they have chosen to categorize the properties for Rewards points will be an indication of how they will rate the properties in a points system.

The reality that Marriott will likely assign more points to newer properties is a very real concern I think, because owners at older top rated, high demand properties, may be paying some of the highest MF's (Maui owners, for ex.) but may not have enough points to trade for like for like (size/length of stay) for Cancun when it comes on board, IF Marriott decides that offering it as a property having the most points would be a good sales tool. Of course, they might take the high road and not do that, but I don't have that much confidence in that happening.

I know you said you'd think it was fair to exchange (I'm assuming Gold) your Barony week for perhaps 4 days in Maui for a 2BR or a studio for a week. Out of curiosity- would you join and actively participate in a system where you knew that would be the trades you'd get? How do others feel about that?


----------



## DanCali

Ok - I'll play too. Here is my prediction:

I predict that, just like in 2007, 2008 and 2009, NOTHING will change this year...

Marriott has done many things correctly and seem to have their eye on the ball. The current system is a good one, Marriott owners are - on average - much happier than owners at other systems, and MF increases in 2010 have been relatively modest. Yes, we can point to some flaws like excessively long Platinum seasons at some resorts etc., but overall it's a pretty good system with a long and proven track record.

As I've pointed out earlier (and so has m61376) a points system is not necessarily a bad system. Despite opening the door for developers to skim off the top, there are other benefits and greater flexibility. In fact, I generally like my current Starwood ownership but I bought into it after I studied the system extensively and figured out what works best for my needs within the existing system. However, establishing a points system when they have ~500,000 owners who bought into a different weeks system has the potential to be a disaster. In my opinion, it would be a colossal mistake to do that and will create a very large number of unhappy owners (e.g. Gold/Silver/Bronze weeks who how get less than 7 days in Hawaii but now if they use II there are no good trades left - not to mention some Platinum owners, like Orlando, will be in a similar situation) with the potential for the entire system to implode upon itself.

IF such a system is being considered, I'm hopeful someone smart and high enough will put the brakes on it before it sees the light of day.


----------



## winger

Latravel said:


> How do you guys find the time to post so much?  I can barely read through them all.


thank god for my Blackberry I am able to at least be one or two pages behind any given moment !!!

Perry and Doug - let's meet up over a nice BBQ say in July?  I will buy both of you a beer (I don't drink).


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... I know you said you'd think it was fair to exchange (I'm assuming Gold) your Barony week for perhaps 4 days in Maui for a 2BR or a studio for a week. Out of curiosity- would you join and actively participate in a system where you knew that would be the trades you'd get? How do others feel about that?



Most important to me would be a home resort priority with no change in how weeks are now used when staying at a home resort; then the fee structure including initiation, annual and transaction fees; then flexchange-like short notice bargains - but yes, if I'm satisfied with those aspects then I would probably join and participate in an internal Marriott exchange system like DVC's.  Honestly, I believe that the 7 days=7 days in II's system isn't always a good thing, when some owners have to consistently "trade down" in quality when exchanging (#BR, view type, or Hawaii for Virginia, for examples.)  And in a DVC-like system, 7 days in a 2BR/Gold/OF could equal 4 or 7 or 10 days in a studio/1-2-or-3BR/any season/any view.  I like that flexibility, think it would really open up travel options.

But I realize it won't work for everyone so I'm not saying here that I would expect everyone to be happy about and embrace the same thing.  We'll all need to figure out how our individual ownership portfolios will work within any given new system.  In our case, I would expect our SurfWatch weeks to overcome any loss inherent in our Barony week.  Besides, we could still choose to put only certain weeks into the new system.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> ... I predict that, just like in 2007, 2008 and 2009, NOTHING will change this year...



Ugh.  I have no idea if anything will happen, but I hope so!  Either roll out the system or table it, I don't care, just do something and make an announcement already.



DanCali said:


> Marriott has done many things correctly and seem to have their eye on the ball. The current system is a good one, Marriott owners are - on average - much happier than owners at other systems,



But isn't it possible to be happy with how things are now, be satisfied if they never change, while at the same time realizing that your ownership could be better than it is?  I think so, because that's exactly where I am right now.  I'll happily exchange in II forever if nothing ever changes because that's the only option, but it's not an ideal option.

{edit} Of course II isn't the ONLY option for trading, private exchanges will always be available, but I meant it's the "only option" Marriott offers now.


----------



## SueDonJ

It occurs to me that maybe we're looking at m/f all wrong here, with respect to how much an exchange points value should correlate to them.  m/f are set according to the costs necessary to run a resort and not according to any quality value that Marriott and/or the owners might think a resort has.  The fact is, geography is a more relevant indicator than amenities when the costs for maintaining any resort are determined.  Isn't it?  The nicest/newest inland resort is never going to cost as much to maintain as an island/ocean resort.  So m/f might be a consideration, but perhaps only a minor one?


----------



## m61376

While I agree that flexibility is a very attractive option, and I can see the inherent "fairness" of giving a high cost, high MF property more for their trade, and a system akin to DVC's would hold a lot of attractions, what I question is whether the owners of lower cost/lower MF properties will sign on in bulk, and will they consider getting less than they are used to fair? As Fletch seemed to indicate, the system is likely not to be as attractive to these owners. 

While it would be nice for your Platinum week (or mine) to get an extended stay at a property that would otherwise be considered "trading down," that means the owner of the "lesser" property has to be giving up his time. IF any new program fails to attract a broad spectrum of owners, there won't be enough points based "lesser" inventory for the premium Platinum owner to trade into. I think that's a big potential pitfall.

Not only for trading purposes, but for people still feeling they are getting value out of their ownership- enough to continue paying MF's- Marriott has to have a system that appeals to a broad spectrum of owners, in my opinion. Developing a program which will cater to the elite owners may be doomed to failure.

And then there is the issue is that this year's elite property may be relatively devalued as newer properties are developed, despite perhaps higher annual costs (MF's).

I don't know if there is a way to satisfy everyone after the fact, so to speak, because IF Marriott makes any changes it will be superimposing a new system on owners accustomed to an old system and, despite whatever perceived inequities there are in the current system, by and large everyone is chugging along complacently. I can only hope that the powers that be are considering many of the issues that have been brought up here.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> It occurs to me that maybe we're looking at m/f all wrong here, with respect to how much an exchange points value should correlate to them.  m/f are set according to the costs necessary to run a resort and not according to any quality value that Marriott and/or the owners might think a resort has.  The fact is, geography is a more relevant indicator than amenities when the costs for maintaining any resort are determined.  Isn't it?  The nicest/newest inland resort is never going to cost as much to maintain as an island/ocean resort.  So m/f might be a consideration, but perhaps only a minor one?



In theory it should be based on supply and demand. My guess is IF something does come out old resorts will be based on this. In practice, the developer can set it to whatever they want to create more sales, especially at new resorts. That is why at Starwood summer (Gold) Harborside and St. John owners (MFs $3000+ for a 2BR) can't trade to a similar size unit in Cancun (MFs less than $1500 for a 2BR), where summer is "Platinum". They can tell Cancun buyers that they can go for 2 weeks to the Carribean (of course they omit the part that Carribean owners are not necessarily happy to exchange internally and inventory is iffy)


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> It occurs to me that maybe we're looking at m/f all wrong here, with respect to how much an exchange points value should correlate to them.  m/f are set according to the costs necessary to run a resort and not according to any quality value that Marriott and/or the owners might think a resort has.  The fact is, geography is a more relevant indicator than amenities when the costs for maintaining any resort are determined.  Isn't it?  The nicest/newest inland resort is never going to cost as much to maintain as an island/ocean resort.  So m/f might be a consideration, but perhaps only a minor one?



I don't think Marriott is going to set point valuations at any given resort based on MF's. Personally, I think demand is going to be the primary consideration and perhaps perhaps developer's pricing. Personally, I'm guessing that the point allocations will follow the lines of the Reward points categories, except that it will be further subdivided by season. IF I was venturing a guess, Marriott would look at the average charge for each villa during the weeks of the season. It has already figured out rental rates, so really has a working calculation of relative worth. I'm guessing the point valuation will be based on some formulation of the average rack rates Marriott is already charging.

The reason I think this is because really selling prices also reflect both the area and the time period of development, and not necessarily the desirability. Older resorts cost less to build, and hence have had lower selling prices, so the pricing does not necessarily reflect the demand. Neither, as you pointed out, do MF's. What Marriott charges as a rental rate, however, does, and it is already a formula that's in place and easy to apply.

My issue with MF's is how a new system would impact fees. Certainly, IF home resort advantage is obliterated (as in the Asia Pacific program) that clearly becomes a big issue. The other is that a valid argument could be made from owners of higher MF resorts IF they weren't happy with their new trade power, or lower season owners paying high MF's no longer getting a week in trade for their ownership. I think that's where MF's become a concern.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> In theory it should be based on supply and demand. My guess is IF something does come out old resorts will be based on this. In practice, the developer can set it to whatever they want to create more sales, especially at new resorts. That is why at Starwood summer (Gold) Harborside and St. John owners (MFs $3000+ for a 2BR) can't trade to a similar size unit in Cancun (MFs less than $1500 for a 2BR), where summer is "Platinum". They can tell Cancun buyers that they can go for 2 weeks to the Carribean (of course they omit the part that Carribean owners are not necessarily happy to exchange internally and inventory is iffy)





m61376 said:


> ... The other is that a valid argument could be made from owners of higher MF resorts IF they weren't happy with their new trade power, or lower season owners paying high MF's no longer getting a week in trade for their ownership. I think that's where MF's become a concern.



Do people now consider the m/f when determining if they're getting value with an exchange?  I dunno, that's why I'm asking.   

We just pick where we want to go, deposit our week and hope for the best.  It hasn't ever occurred to me that success might depend on the m/f costs of the deposited/requested resorts, or that we're trading down if the resort we get in a trade has lower m/f than the one we deposited.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> Do people now consider the m/f when determining if they're getting value with an exchange?  I dunno, that's why I'm asking.
> 
> We just pick where we want to go, deposit our week and hope for the best.  It hasn't ever occurred to me that success might depend on the m/f costs of the deposited/requested resorts, or that we're trading down if the resort we get in a trade has lower m/f than the one we deposited.



I don't, but there are lots of posts referencing how trading a high MF resort for a lower MF one is considered trading down. That is one barometer people use when considering the value they are getting from trading.

Personally- I agree- if I can get what I want when I want it, it's a good trade. Of course, if I can get something bigger than I deposited, I feel like I've gotten more value for my money.


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## rsackett

I bet Marriott will set points based on selling price.  This would make the new program seem the fairest to new retail buyers.

Ray


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## scrapngen

rsackett said:


> I bet Marriott will set points based on selling price.  This would make the new program seem the fairest to new retail buyers.
> 
> Ray



WHAT selling price?? Actual price paid? Pre-construction price? Marriott list price? 20% off Marriott list price (what they are selling at currently) 
That could be complicated as well as the other ideas people are suggesting..


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## rsackett

I did not mean an exact selling price, I think it would loosly follow how much Marriott sells weeks for.  MMC sells retail for about 20k plat.  Marco Island about 3 times that much.  I bet Marco gets about 3 times the points as MMC.  I am sure that my guess is worth about what you paid to get it (actual purchase price  )

Ray


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## SueDonJ

rsackett said:


> I did not mean an exact selling price, I think it would loosly follow how much Marriott sells weeks for.  MMC sells retail for about 20k plat.  Marco Island about 3 times that much.  I bet Marco gets about 3 times the points as MMC.  I am sure that my guess is worth about what you paid to get it (actual purchase price  )
> 
> Ray



That's what I expect, too, that the developer price will be the barometer.  Or at least, it appears to be the simplest way to convert from weeks to points, because the developer price structure already takes into account the views/#BR/seasons within a resort, as well as the quality differences between resorts.  Perhaps to be most fair, they'll use the price structure that was in place when the highest prices were paid by owners (and maybe adjust for inflation so that all the figures they use are based on current dollars?)


----------



## GregT

rsackett said:


> I bet Marriott will set points based on selling price.  This would make the new program seem the fairest to new retail buyers.
> 
> Ray



This would be consistent with what my sales rep told me about the points system -- his comment was that I could due to an equity trade and 100% of my purchase price would be applied to the points purchase.  He also didn't think it would have a home resort.  But, we are speculating.


----------



## JimIg23

I agree with this also, the Marriott purchase price per week will drive the amount of points one gets.  Those who paid more will get more points.  But the next question is: will the amount of points for each resort be different (within the same season).  I believe this also will be different.  A Platinum Hawaii week will be more points than an platinum Orlando week.  If they are going to do this in June, I hope they start telling people soon.


----------



## dougp26364

GregT said:


> Doug,
> 
> I agree with your prediction almost point for point -- my only addition is that there has to be some "modest" annual fee to remain in the points program, like $89/year, to allow for Marriott to have a recurring revenue stream -- or perhaps this was your reference in #8 to the internal exchange fee.  I do think it will be an annual fee not just a reservation fee so that even if you don't use your points (and bank them or borrow them) you still pay the fee.




Good point and one I hadn't thought about. Both points based sytems we're in have an annual membership but, both also include the membership fee's for Interval or RCI. I believe HGVC's membership fee amounts to $79/yr and is included in the annual MF's. DRI's annual fee's are $235/yr and are billed seperately.

With Hilton, there are additional fee's when you make an internal exchange. With DRI, all internal exchanges are covered by the larger annual fee. Which is better just depends on whether you make a lot of internal exchanges or just a few.

Both actually work for us. Hilton has very few locations for internal exchanges, thus we don't make a lot of exchanges within their system. So ala carte pricing works well for us with Hilton. DRI offers over 100 possibility's for internal exchange, one of which is within driving distance to us. We tend to make more exchanges internally with DRI and, by not having to pay Intervals exchange fee's, I reconcile the cost savings on a per exchange basis. After only two internal exchanges I've covered DRI's higher membership fee. 

For Marriott to charge a membership fee then the Interval International membership fee should be a part of that. Otherwise it would be one more strike against the program for people who have purchased and use their home resort.

If Marriott does have a membership fee and if it does include the annual Interval International membership fee for Marroitt owners, it will present me with something of a delima. That will leave me just one small timeshare in Branson that is outside of any system. Originally we bought it to use but, situations changed and it turned out to be a reasonably good exchange week for the price. I'm not sure that it will be that great of an exchange week if it's the only week I have with Interval and I'm having to pay a $89 membership fee plus $139 in exchange fee's plus the MF just to have a week we use for exchange. At this point, the week really isnt' necessary but, I've hung onto it because I've done very well exchanging it.


----------



## dougp26364

SueDonJ said:


> It occurs to me that maybe we're looking at m/f all wrong here, with respect to how much an exchange points value should correlate to them.  m/f are set according to the costs necessary to run a resort and not according to any quality value that Marriott and/or the owners might think a resort has.  The fact is, geography is a more relevant indicator than amenities when the costs for maintaining any resort are determined.  Isn't it?  The nicest/newest inland resort is never going to cost as much to maintain as an island/ocean resort.  So m/f might be a consideration, but perhaps only a minor one?



MF's are set by the HOA. Marriott only manages the resorts and, for doing this they receive a management fee. Marriott has shown that it will walk away from managing resorts and take their name off the resort if the HOA doesn't keep the resort maintained to Marriott standards. 

Any internal exchange system is would still be seperate from the resorts themselves. The MF's will have little, if any, impact on the internal exchange system as far as Marriott is concerned. Of course the cost of MF's as compared to how many points a resort is alloted will have a big impact on whether or not owners want to join. 

It's also one more reason to offer a home resort advantage. Home resort advantage protects owners of lessor seasons. If the gate opens at the same time for everyone, the Platinum owners could theoretically "stretch" the value of their ownership by reserving Silver and Gold season weeks. Since they would have more points than Gold, Silver or Bonze season owners, in theory at least they could occupy every week in those seasons while the actual owners of those seasons would be able to get a week at all. There will have to be some home resort advantage offered to protect those who own in lower seasons.


----------



## dougp26364

GregT said:


> This would be consistent with what my sales rep told me about the points system -- his comment was that I could due to an equity trade and 100% of my purchase price would be applied to the points purchase.  He also didn't think it would have a home resort.  But, we are speculating.



No home resort adavantage means no protection for those that own in that season. I often use the points I have from high season weeks to reserve lower season weeks to stretch my usage. In both systems I own in, owners in those seasons have a home resort advantage. With HGVC it's 3 months. With DRI it's 2 months. It gives owners in those seasons the right to reserve what they want before I pick up what I want at a lower points price. 

If Platinum owners were allowed to reserve all the Bronze, Silver and Gold weeks, Marriott will have a lot of people complaining they have lost a contractual right. That is the right to reserve a week in their home resort during the season they paid to own in. 

The saleman might think there won't be a home resort advantage but, IMHO, that only shows their ignorance of how points systems really work and is one example of why they don't know what's coming. Or, it could be showing my ignorance thinking that Marriott has actually thought this out and won't make to many big mistakes.


----------



## dougp26364

winger said:


> thank god for my Blackberry I am able to at least be one or two pages behind any given moment !!!
> 
> Perry and Doug - let's meet up over a nice BBQ say in July?  I will buy both of you a beer (I don't drink).



It might have to be a virtual beer. We don't leave the state of KS very much unless it's on vacation.


----------



## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> It might have to be a virtual beer. We don't leave the state of KS very much unless it's on vacation.



And when you do?  Do you say, "honey, we're not in Kansas anymore" a few times a day?

<thud>


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> The saleman might think there won't be a home resort advantage but, IMHO, that only shows their ignorance of how points systems really work and is one example of why they don't know what's coming. Or, it could be showing my ignorance thinking that Marriott has actually thought this out and won't make to many big mistakes.



But that's assuming it's an overlay program. If you recall, Fletch said the same thing. And- that's what they did in the Asia Pacific program. Basically, adopters of the new program effectively gave up their ownership rights to a particular property.

And- wrt MF's- adopters of the new program pay a set MF per point. Effectively, Marriott spreads the risk across the board, across all resorts. What I find confusing is how they coordinate this with properties that still have partial week ownership.

Personally, even IF they do develop a program, if I have to give up home resort advantage I'll stick with what I have. I think a lot of Plat. week owners and other week owners who bought where they like to go most years will want to retain that right. 

As for surmising how they will place point valuations- I think it will be hard for them to relate the point assignments to what the developer's pricing, because of the time factor. The price structure at newer resorts is necessarily higher because of cost, but does not necessarily reflect demand. I still think demand will play a part in the formula- and I think they will look at what they've already done. The rental rates that they charge for different size units reflects all the parameters- different demand at different times of the year, different rates for different views, etc., and has already taken the differing cost factors out of the equation. So my guess is that the point valuations will be some formulation based on what Marriott charges its rental customers, probably based on the average rate for the time period that correlates with the season. This would be very easy- if the rental rate is $875 for a 2BR then maybe they'd allocate 87,500 points; where it is $300 they'd be allocating 30,000 points. The logistics for this are already in place.


----------



## PerryM

*Trial balloon or lead balloon?*

Marriott is not a dumb Fortune 500 company - I sure believe that.

Spreading this stupid rumor for 4+ years is just dumb by a smart company.

I've always suspected that Marriott is floating trial balloons by spreading a rumor to smart folks (TUG and folks who know about resales) - that's why I'm not holding back on their stupid trial balloons.

Marriott: If you want a fantastic sales tool and keep your owners happy (those folks buy a boat load of timeshares direct from you) here's what you need to do:

Create a Point Based Internal Exchange system where no caste system is needed to make it a sales tool - drop the word "Resale" from your vocabulary.


Make membership price uniform to ALL owners - 10% of current sales price for grandfathered units and add 10% to the current sales price - all at the same time on the day of introduction.

Allow resales to enter anytime later for a fee like the above.

Allow membership to transfer with ALL resales - not just yours.

Create a reasonable fee structure.

1 year commitment to exit the system.

That's it - everyone is happy.

I know you are reading these posts - you can't be stupid enough to do anything else.


----------



## JimIg23

PerryM said:


> Make membership price uniform to ALL owners - 10% of current sales price for grandfathered units and add 10% to the current sales price - all at the same time on the day of introduction.
> 
> That's it - everyone is happy.
> .





That means some people here would be spending 10k to buy in.....  I dont know about that one.


----------



## PerryM

JimIg23 said:


> That means some people here would be spending 10k to buy in.....  I dont know about that one.



Pick 5% or 8% or 2.5% but a percentage is FAR more fair then a flat fee which applies the same to a Platinum Plus Holiday week or a Bronze week.


----------



## KarenLK

*Just a little late, but...*

someone asked about 500+ posts ago about whether Marriott was the only group which had its own area at II with a special phone number. The Royal Resorts also have a separate number. It is a bit complicated for me, as when I call the Royals number, I automatically get sent to a Marriott advisor. Don't know why.


----------



## Transit

Just to add to the speculation I would imagine that if Marriott does go to an internal point system units would be offered AC's more frequently for II deposit.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> But that's assuming it's an overlay program. If you recall, Fletch said the same thing. And- that's what they did in the Asia Pacific program. Basically, adopters of the new program effectively gave up their ownership rights to a particular property.
> 
> And- wrt MF's- adopters of the new program pay a set MF per point. Effectively, Marriott spreads the risk across the board, across all resorts. What I find confusing is how they coordinate this with properties that still have partial week ownership.
> 
> Personally, even IF they do develop a program, if I have to give up home resort advantage I'll stick with what I have. I think a lot of Plat. week owners and other week owners who bought where they like to go most years will want to retain that right.
> 
> As for surmising how they will place point valuations- I think it will be hard for them to relate the point assignments to what the developer's pricing, because of the time factor. The price structure at newer resorts is necessarily higher because of cost, but does not necessarily reflect demand. I still think demand will play a part in the formula- and I think they will look at what they've already done. The rental rates that they charge for different size units reflects all the parameters- different demand at different times of the year, different rates for different views, etc., and has already taken the differing cost factors out of the equation. So my guess is that the point valuations will be some formulation based on what Marriott charges its rental customers, probably based on the average rate for the time period that correlates with the season. This would be very easy- if the rental rate is $875 for a 2BR then maybe they'd allocate 87,500 points; where it is $300 they'd be allocating 30,000 points. The logistics for this are already in place.




Then what we're talking about wouldn't be a points based exchange program, it would be trust ownership with Marriott retaining all voting rights and control of the properties. If you ask me, a program like that is likely to land with a resounding THUD with current owners who were sold on the rights of deeded ownership.

It's coordinated by splitting the inventory between the two types of ownership. It will complicate matters of placement and reservations with the resorts but, it's not impossible. This would also create a lot of dissatisfaction amoung owners. 

Like you, if home resort advantage is given up they can count me out. For that matter, if this moves from deeded ownership to trust based ownership, they can count me out. I have no desire to sign over my deeds for a kiss and a promise that Marriott will look out for my best interest.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Then what we're talking about wouldn't be a points based exchange program, it would be trust ownership with Marriott retaining all voting rights and control of the properties. If you ask me, a program like that is likely to land with a resounding THUD with current owners who were sold on the rights of deeded ownership.
> 
> *It's coordinated by splitting the inventory between the two types of ownership. It will complicate matters of placement and reservations with the resorts but, it's not impossible. This would also create a lot of dissatisfaction among owners. *
> 
> Like you, if home resort advantage is given up they can count me out. For that matter, if this moves from deeded ownership to trust based ownership, they can count me out. I have no desire to sign over my deeds for a kiss and a promise that Marriott will look out for my best interest.



The rumored Points system is doomed to failure if Marriott can't entice the vast vast majority of owners to immediately convert.  If they screw around with 2 inventories and slow conversion they are going to repeat the RCI Points introduction debacle.

Like I've said for many years now there is a grown-up at Marriott that will do the right thing and spank the marketing morons for trying to implement a disaster just as the real estate market is imploding.

Marriott only gets one chance at the introduction - do they really want to bet MVCI on a sales gimmick cooked up by marketing morons who wouldn't know a faulty system if it fell on their heads.

P.S.

Hey Marriott I found an even more fair membership fee - make the membership fee based upon the number of Points a unit generates.  Say a Gold week generates 1,500 Points per year - make the membership fee $1 per point; they pay $1,500 to join.  A Platinum Plus Holiday week generates 4,500 Points per year - they pay $4,500 to join.

Pick a price per point and there isn't any reason you can't make the introduction easier by spreading the membership fee over 3 years.  (Limited time only owners - join within 30 days and spread the membership fee over 3 years; but only for the first 30 days - hurry)

That way weeks disappear and Points are what folks think about - even as they join.  If I have 3 Platinum Plus 2 Gold and 1 Silver I simply calculate the number of Points generated and I multiply that by the price per Point and know my membership fee.

If I don't have the cash I might not add the Silver now but a year or so away but still using the membership fee per point.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> The rumored Points system is doomed to failure if Marriott can't entice the vast vast majority of owners to immediately convert.  If they screw around with 2 inventories and slow conversion they are going to repeat the RCI Points introduction debacle.
> 
> Like I've said for many years now there is a grown-up at Marriott that will do the right thing and spank the marketing morons for trying to implement a disaster just as the real estate market is imploding.
> 
> Marriott only gets one chance at the introduction - do they really want to bet MVCI on a sales gimmick cooked up by marketing morons who wouldn't know a faulty system if it fell on their heads.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Hey Marriott I found an even more fair membership fee - make the membership fee based upon the number of Points a unit generates.  Say a Gold week generates 1,500 Points per year - make the membership fee $1 per point; they pay $1,500 to join.  A Platinum Plus Holiday week generates 4,500 Points per year - they pay $4,500 to join.
> 
> Pick a price per point and there isn't any reason you can't make the introduction easier by spreading the membership fee over 3 years.



Holy Cow, I find myself agreeing with you this time.  

If Marriott goes the way of some form of trust based internal system and divides the inventory into weeks based ownership and trust based ownership, they're doomed. I'd like to think that current owners are smart enough to retain all the rights, including home resort advantage and voting rights, vs signing them over to Marriott and giving Marriott complete control. It'd be a sweet deal for Marriott but it would harm the owners a great deal. I doubt I'd ever give any considertion to such a plan.

DRI is sort of interesting in that they have trust based ownership, deeded weeks based ownership and a points based reservations system that all owners can participate in whether they own deeded weeks or trust points. Oddly enough, it works rather well. Inventory is plentiful for points based exchanges and weeks based owners don't appear to have issues getting desirable weeks at their home resorts. I can't imagine keeping all that inventory seperated is all that easy for the resorts when owners want to reserve a week. 

Marriott would be better served by introducing a points based system that allows owners to keep their deeded weeks and maintain their home resort advantage. That is what I've been under the impression they will do. If I'm wrong, Marriott is looking at potentially one of the largest flops for an internal exchange system timeshare has ever known. It could surpass the debacle that appears to be going on at Starwood. 

Fotunately, owners won't have to join any trust based system and, if enough owners avoid it like the plague it will die a quick merciful death. Unfortunately by then Marriott will have issues with those owners that did buy into the system. Especially with new owners who wouldn't know anything different. It could really do a lot of damage to the Marriott brand. 

I honestly don't see Marriott making this sort of mistake. I really hope they don't make this mistake. If they do, thank goodness we own weeks we can use. I'll be happy to use our ownership or trade using Interval until such a time Marriott would come to it's senses. 

I still think they'll simply offer deeded weeks the option to convert those weeks into points, pay a yearly membership fee, pay a moderate internal exchange fee and keep their deeds. That would be the simplest and smartest thing they could do. Of course, I've seen large corporations make some pretty bone headed mistakes lately thinking the us common folk are to stupid to know what's best for ourselves.


----------



## Rush

Transit said:


> Just to add to the speculation I would imagine that if Marriott does go to an internal point system units would be offered AC's more frequently for II deposit.



Frank's comment raises a point I've been wondering about in the context of this whole discussion - where I've read that joining the anticipated new program would be optional - and that is, if someone joins the eventual "new" program, would they then be precluded from trading their converted week(s) through II?

Which is to say, would joining the program mean relinquishing the opportunity to trade into all of those other non-Marriott resorts which II offers?


----------



## NJDave

Starbucks said:


> [*Maintenance Fee*
> 
> Current maintenance fee is US$ 0.027 per Club point. Maintenance Fees are not based on the specific location but the whole system. There is no "cheap Maintenance fee"-Location.





Starbucks said:


> There are three Travel Demand Seasons within the scheme LOW (TDI 50 to 80), MODERATE (TDI 80 to 120), HIGH (TDI 120 to 150+).
> 
> As already quoted in the thread above, the price structure for a week is as follows:
> 
> Low/Moderate/High
> 
> Studio
> 
> 10,000/15,000/27,500
> 
> 1 Bedroom
> 
> 15,000/23,000/42,500
> 
> 2 Bedroom
> 
> 23,000/32,500/60,000
> 
> 3 Bedroom
> 
> 32,500/45,000/85,000




The above qoutes are from another thread regarding the Asia program.  The chart is regarding a trade to other Marriotts that are not currently in the Asia program.  If the Asia program is used as a guide, if a platinum week in Orlando was worth 50,000 points, my maintenance fees would go from $850 to $1,350. 60,000 points would be $1,620. Those fees would scare alot of people away from converting.

It also appears that the season (platinum, gold and bronze) may be more important than the resort for assigning point values.  However, the top resorts such as Hawaii may only have platinum seasons.


----------



## dougp26364

Rush said:


> Frank's comment raises a point I've been wondering about in the context of this whole discussion - where I've read that joining the anticipated new program would be optional - and that is, if someone joins the eventual "new" program, would they then be precluded from trading their converted week(s) through II?
> 
> Which is to say, would joining the program mean relinquishing the opportunity to trade into all of those other non-Marriott resorts which II offers?



I don't know of any points based or trust based timeshare ownership that has this restriction. The benefit is you can trade internally, have first crack at that systems units and pay a lower exchange fee or no fee at all. If you can't find something you like internally, then you can still trade through RCI or I.I., whichever exchange company they use.

Of note, there is a restriction within the DRI rules that says you MUST make external exchanges through I.I. They will not allow a points member to reserve a unit and exchange through an independant company. How legal that is I won't begin to guess.


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> I honestly don't see Marriott making this sort of mistake. I really hope they don't make this mistake. If they do, thank goodness we own weeks we can use. I'll be happy to use our ownership or trade using Interval until such a time Marriott would come to it's senses.



I agree with you're sentiment that Marriott shouldn't go down this road. However, I am not so sure they won't. That seems to be exactly what they did with the Asia pacific program. Also- Fletch did make a comment that, at least from what he heard, there would be no home resort advantage (which supports what they did before with the AP program).

That's one of the reasons I'm so doubtful about the new program. I hope you are right. And I do agree- those owners who bought where they are very happy going (like you and I) are not really the ones who would be in jeopardy. However, Marriott sold many properties to unsuspecting buyers with the illusion of easily being able to trade and getting season upgrades. Many have managed to work the system as the salesperson alluded to. I feel sorry for those people, who stand to lose a way of life they've grown accustomed to.

BTW- does anyone know what kind of response the Asia Pacific program has received? Is there any data on that? The program has been in effect for over half a year already- have people been converting their deeded weeks in Las Vegas, Hawaii, and elsewhere?


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> I agree with you're sentiment that Marriott shouldn't go down this road. However, I am not so sure they won't. That seems to be exactly what they did with the Asia pacific program. Also- Fletch did make a comment that, at least from what he heard, there would be no home resort advantage (which supports what they did before with the AP program).
> 
> That's one of the reasons I'm so doubtful about the new program. I hope you are right. And I do agree- those owners who bought where they are very happy going (like you and I) are not really the ones who would be in jeopardy. However, Marriott sold many properties to unsuspecting buyers with the illusion of easily being able to trade and getting season upgrades. Many have managed to work the system as the salesperson alluded to. I feel sorry for those people, who stand to lose a way of life they've grown accustomed to.
> 
> BTW- does anyone know what kind of response the Asia Pacific program has received? Is there any data on that? The program has been in effect for over half a year already- have people been converting their deeded weeks in Las Vegas, Hawaii, and elsewhere?



Since we trade our lock-offs, we've learned to "work" the system and I'm actually pretty happy with it the way it is. Unfortunately, the one thing I've learned owning timeshares is that change is inevitable. There have been a lot of changes since we started in 1998 and I'm sure there's going to be a lot more. Some of those changes have cost me money, some have not. All have forced me to rethink and relearn how to maximize the usage of our timeshares. 

We own in Vegas and, even though we sat through several owners updates we were never approached about converting to the AP program. I always assumed it was because we weren't what they thought was their target market. For that matter I don't even have a clue how much inventory at the Grand Chateau is AP and how much is traditional. I can say I've never had an issue booking the week we wanted but, I always book a year in advance.  

If this does turn out to be a trust based product rather than just a points based exchange system, we'll stick with Interval. We really enjoy exchanging into other Marriott resorts via the Marriott preference with Interval but, not so much I'd sell my soul (give my deeded week up) to Marriott just to have some new internal exchange system. I'm not giving up my deeds.


----------



## Superchief

*Like it the way I bought it*

When I purchased my timeshares, I made my decisions based on the current program and vacation preferences. I bought the timeshares and the seasons based on when and where I planned to vacation, and based on the relative cost vs. other alternatives. Since we like to travel to mountains in summer, and beaches (or desert) in spring and fall, I only purchased one week that is platinum (Royal Palms). I have alsways been able to go where I want or exchange using the current system. Recently, I locked off my June 2010 week at Mountainside, exchanged the lockoff for 2BR June 2010 at Royal Palms (for my brother), and the 1BR for 1BR at Shadow Ridge in March 2011. Other than the devaluation of Marriott Points, I like the system as it is.

Since I don't own any platinum weeks at newer resorts, I doubt that any new system will match what I can do today. I think that Marriott would be better off to determine how to more fairly allocate Marriott Rewards points as an option, rather than adopt a new points exchange system.


----------



## Quilter

Superchief said:


> When I purchased my timeshares, I made my decisions based on the current program and vacation preferences. I bought the timeshares and the seasons based on when and where I planned to vacation, and based on the relative cost vs. other alternatives. Since we like to travel to mountains in summer, and beaches (or desert) in spring and fall, I only purchased one week that is platinum (Royal Palms). I have alsways been able to go where I want or exchange using the current system. Recently, I locked off my June 2010 week at Mountainside, exchanged the lockoff for 2BR June 2010 at Royal Palms (for my brother), and the 1BR for 1BR at Shadow Ridge in March 2011. Other than the devaluation of Marriott Points, I like the system as it is.
> 
> Since I don't own any platinum weeks at newer resorts, I doubt that any new system will match what I can do today. I think that Marriott would be better off to determine how to more fairly allocate Marriott Rewards points as an option, rather than adopt a new points exchange system.



I agree with you Superchief.   We also enjoy the system we bought into and are very disappointed that Marriott will be making such drastic changes.  You know the saying "a house divided. . . "   Some Marriott owners will stay with II for the benefits it gives out of the U.S. and outside the Marriott system, others will go with the new system.  This will divide the trading inventory.   

Without being part of the corporate discussions it's hard to say what the motives are but I can't see any other reason than more money for Marriott.  The same thing happened when they changed the rental program.   Make more money for Marriott.   You just never know what they're going to come up with next.   Very hard to develop trust.   Doesn't give me any connection to the hype for the "Marriott Way" of old that looked out for the customer.     More like the new Marriott way that says the customer will just have to deal with it.


----------



## cruisin

If its a pure points system with no home resort, Marriott  will no longer have to build beautiful resorts that people will be willing to own a deed at. They will build in cheaper places with cheaper construction, and sell points at the beautiful Hawaii resorts. It will take a while to get there, but it is too hard to resist when trying to make a profit, its simply the path of least resistance.  They just need a lot of people to join up. The internal exchange can be a loss-leader for them if it creates enough sales. Marriot would love to sell the Hawaii properties over and over. There will not be available inventory for anyone, but everyone will have the potential to spend New years in Hawaii. 

Perry has always said that being able to sell New Years in Hawaii to every potential buyer is a salesman's bonanza.

They just need enough people to buy in.........


----------



## dougp26364

This is just a thought but, there does exist a relationship between DRI and Marriott at this moment. Grand Chateau was originally a DRI project. DRI has a silent partnership with Marriott which gave Marriott the right to build, sell and brand Grand Chateau.

DRI has a program in which there are traditional weeks owners, a points based exchange club and a trust based ownership in which there is no real home resort. What's filtered down appears to include all of these situations to some degree. I'm begining to wonder how deep the silent partnership between DRI and Marriott is running and, is Marriott looking to DRI's system of weeks, points and trust based ownership as a model for it's own program?

Only time will tell. Marriott and DRI also have many things that are not in common and this could just be some wild flight of my imagination. The one thing I have learned about timeshare in the years we've been owners is that everything is likely to continue to evolve and change. It's a type of vacation that can be very satisfactory but it does require that you keep up with what's going on in order to make the most of your ownership. It's not for those that want to just book and go last minute or want to allow a travel agent to do all the work for them. I think what has everyone on edge is the idea we'll all have a certain amount of relearning we'll need to do in order to continue to get the most out of our Marriott ownerships.


----------



## PerryM

*Bingo - we have a winner...*



cruisin said:


> If its a pure points system with no home resort, Marriott  will no longer have to build beautiful resorts that people will be willing to own a deed at. They will build in cheaper places with cheaper construction, and sell points at the beautiful Hawaii resorts. It will take a while to get there, but it is too hard to resist when trying to make a profit, its simply the path of least resistance.  They just need a lot of people to join up. The internal exchange can be a loss-leader for them if it creates enough sales. Marriot would love to sell the Hawaii properties over and over. There will not be available inventory for anyone, but everyone will have the potential to spend New years in Hawaii.
> 
> Perry has always said that being able to sell New Years in Hawaii to every potential buyer is a salesman's bonanza.
> 
> They just need enough people to buy in.........



Holy cow folks are finally beginning to understand what Marriott is going to shove down our throats - they can sell generic Points and sell thousands of new owners New Year's week in Park City or Maui or....

Thousands and thousand of sales for the same week at any Marriott they want with no need to actually own the week but use our units.  It's a salesreps dream come true.

What salesrep worth their salt wants to sell Bronze, Silver, and Gold weeks when its so easy to sell Platinum Plus Holiday weeks - they are the ones that sell out first - bronze last.

The new exchange system is for Marriott's benefit at our expense.  Marriott can dump doggy bronze weeks that they are still stuck with and lock in New Year's week in Maui and rent it to folks for mega-bucks.

Want to bet Marriott never thought of this?

And for goodness sakes folks drop the word "I" or "Me" or "We" from the new exchange scheme - its all about Marriott's new sales tool...

Glad to see some folks know this already - more need to get over the feeling that Marriott would never screw them.  For 4 years now Marriott has been telling us they intend to screw us - believe them!!!


----------



## potterew

I think that if they do something like you are suggesting, those like me who own in Hawaii will probably not convert to points, while those at some of the other systems will convert quickly.  I personally think it will be something that does the opposite and tries to convince the people who own in Hawaii to jump on it, but not benefit those in other locations.

I'm guessing that is why it has been so long to implement something.  They need to come up with something to entice both sides or the program would be useless.  

There is alot of speculation on what will happen.  We are probably all wrong.


----------



## PerryM

*That grumbling noise is not my tummy....*



potterew said:


> I think that if they do something like you are suggesting, those like me who own in Hawaii will probably not convert to points, while those at some of the other systems will convert quickly.  I personally think it will be something that does the opposite and tries to convince the people who own in Hawaii to jump on it, but not benefit those in other locations.
> 
> I'm guessing that is why it has been so long to implement something.  They need to come up with something to entice both sides or the program would be useless.
> 
> There is alot of speculation on what will happen.  We are probably all wrong.



I doubt Marriott will have ANY problems converting a large number of Maui folks - the Points they generate will make their eyes swim.

If I were Marriott I'd go out of my way to get those Platinum folks in Maui - some kind of sweetener and the promise that they will be the first owner (notice the word owner and not system) to lock in a juicy MOC week for Christmas.  They will be forced into allowing a home resort advantage - how about a 24-day same resort only window?

It's going to be fun to watch all this unfurl since I'll never join with a Gold Summit Watch - I'll be exchanging with super high Trading Power in II since II will go out of its way to entice Marriott folks to say.  I really like the Sands of Kahana and can get into the Pink Elephant (Ka'anapali Beach Club) with my Gold Summit Watch for President's week just like I did for this year.

Marriott will start off great and probably do fine for a year or so until the grumbling from the owners gets in the way.  Don't know what they'll do but grumble...

P.S.

Transparency is a word Marriott will NEVER use with the new scheme - the internal workings of it will be a corporate secret (just like II's and RCI's Trading Power) - there is NO way we will be able to determine if Marriott has set up an honest system.  Granted we don't have that now with II but Marriott will never reveal how many exchanges it makes for itself and the rental income generated with these exchanges.

You won't find an independent auditing firm rendering a yearly opinion on the honesty of the scheme.

Expect Marriott to allow Points to be used for airline tickets, MRP purchases, car rentals - that opens the floodgates for renting on their part.  They will gladly take your Points and provide a complete vacation package from airline tickets, car rentals, villa reservations, and even cruises - all require Marriott to convert Points into rental income from the units they rent to the public.

They do this with MRPs now - I don't expect anything less from MVCI.


----------



## GaryDouglas

*Trizzle, trazzle, trozzle, trome...*

I've heard that most owners at MOC/MMO use their weeks. I'm trying to figure out why any of these people would trade in their deeded weeks, particularly those with week 52. If the owners are wise to the ramifications of such a sceanario (maybe a big IF), the percentage of those keeping there deeded weeks would stay high and I would think in time, deeded weeks could demand a premium price. Too little facts and too much conjecture for my cloudy crystal ball... Help Mr. Wizard!


----------



## David10225

I'm not sure if I have thought this out correctly, but for those who remain in the old system, the choice of weeks you have will be dependent on how many of your fellow season holders move to the point system.  For example, I own platinum season which goes from the last weekend in May through the end of August at Barony Beach in HH.

For the sake of argument, let's say that 99% of my fellow platinum season holders decide to move to the point system.  I would anticipate that Marriott would start taking over the deeded weeks first from the more popular weeks and moving out towards closer to the shoulder seasons.  If everyone but me moved to points, I suppose at some point I would have a choice of one week every year, maybe that end of May week...still in the platinum season..but limited to that one week.

I'm not suggesting a majority of owners will move as I have no idea...I might do so myself...but it surely impacts the available choices for those that don't. (or at least it does in my mind at 520 in the AM..lol)


----------



## JimIg23

That will be an issue.  Will they be allowed to do that?  that would effectively block a deeded owner from most of their season.


----------



## m61376

The whole issue of availability will depend upon how many people elect (or don't elect) to join. Perry's scenario relies on Platinum Plus Hawaii, ski week and Caribbean week owners in particular migrating to the new system. On the flip side, if people accustomed to Maui over Christmas or New Year's, skiing over the holidays or spending Christmas/New Years in Aruba, etc., simply want to continue doing what they paid big $$'s to do, then there will be very few weeks in the new system. Of course, that doesn't preclude the salespeople from selling the theoretical possibility of booking those weeks if you own enough points, or buying what you can afford now and adding to it later- a great sales pitch for people with young kids who may need school vacation times a few years down the road.

As for making reservations- since Marriott sold deeded floating weeks as having the potential to reserve any week in the season, I would assume that, as they sold or converted people to points, they would get their share of every week/arrival date reservations- so that, for example, if there were 50 units available per arrival day to reserve, IF half the owners in the season decide to join the new system, Marriott would get 25 and 25 would be reserved for owners who retain their week rights. Of course, IF there is a new system and IF most owners decide to join it, then it would theoretically be harder for week owners to reserve. Of course, the reverse is true- IF relatively few owners join any theoretical new system, then there would be fewer weeks for those who have converted their weeks to join. So the relative balance- and attractiveness of either system- will depend upon the level of adoption. As Quilter said: "A house divided..." - unfortunately, that may portend to be true.


----------



## m61376

JimIg23 said:


> That will be an issue.  Will they be allowed to do that?  that would effectively block a deeded owner from most of their season.



It would theoretically be an issue only if the majority of owners switch over. The more weeks that are converted, the more weeks that are allocated to the points system. On the other hand, there are fewer deeded week owners competing for those remaining weeks.

I think the reservation system works, to some extent, because there are so many units for Marriott to manipulate. Effectively creating two systems, with proportional inventory allotted to each, will potentially make room control a nightmare to manage. Their current reservation system has its own problems- can you imagine dealing with reservations in two distinct systems?!


----------



## timeos2

*How can you trust the fox who swears they've gone vegetarian but sells wings?*



m61376 said:


> As for making reservations- since Marriott sold deeded floating weeks as having the potential to reserve any week in the season, I would assume that, as they sold or converted people to points, they would get their share of every week/arrival date reservations- so that, for example, if there were 50 units available per arrival day to reserve, IF half the owners in the season decide to join the new system, Marriott would get 25 and 25 would be reserved for owners who retain their week rights. Of course, IF there is a new system and IF most owners decide to join it, then it would theoretically be harder for week owners to reserve. Of course, the reverse is true- IF relatively few owners join any theoretical new system, then there would be fewer weeks for those who have converted their weeks to join. So the relative balance- and attractiveness of either system- will depend upon the level of adoption. As Quilter said: "A house divided..." - unfortunately, that may portend to be true.



The theory that if 50% own weeks and 50% move to points puts 50% of the available inventory into a pool for each is very valid. The real problem then becomes the spread of available times over the two groups. Unfortunately the split can be unfairly tipped to one group or the other through by the system administrator. The overall season may be the top Platinum but there are still strong degrees of value to the holidays and other sweet spot times vs the very beginning and end of the designated period.  

Now you've got the group who stands to gain the most - Marriott - also in control of that assignment! Does anyone really believe they won't be tempted to skew the best toward the group they want to sell to?  It's another case where having a developer/sales group in charge of management is clearly a conflict of interest and a tough temptation for any company to resist. Who is going to be able to effectively call them on it when they hold the keys to every part of the process? 

To be able to trust that the assignment is really being done at, in this example, 50% to each group not just overall but down to the individual start date being an even 50/50 split I would want to see an independent management that answers to the owners Board making that call. There is just too much complete trust required of any sales/marketing/management group all in one to make an owner comfortable.  If so many here are convinced the whole points system will be implemented to create sales for Marriott and hurt resales then logic says they will do all they can to make those that hold out feel the old way no longer works. What better way to make THAT happen than to soak up all the high demand times with the new reservations and leave only the lesser times for the "old timers".  I wouldn't trust them for a minute.


----------



## Transit

Inventory for points and weeks would probably change within a *time line* like other point systems like Hyatt, Starwood and DVC. Owners at 12 months would get first crack. You would most likely be able to deposit/withdraw points units from  6-10 months and there would also be a time line for II deposits. Some poster are assuming that a points system roll out would be like RCI points and they need to give back a deeded week to get a points week* that may not* be the case at all. Most Hyatt and Starwood are fully deeded units. Their points system is just another option/way to use your DEEDED week.


----------



## jlf58

I would expect very few PP week owners to join since they mostly use there weeks. We sold Aruba Platinum and Gold as traders so they should be a big portion. At even $400 a pop to convert, I expect alot of owners to wait and see what other think. Just an FYI, the sales people get ZERO for an owner to convert so they will be pushing new sales only !! I expect it will take 5 years to get anywhere near 30% converted. 

Ok, want to know what I get a good laugh at . I sold very few crappy weeks ie. Gold in Park City, Bronze anywhere etc. They whole II system is based on like for like so except for 60 days or less, you should not be able to get a Platinum week with a Bronze or low demand Gold week. Everyone who bought these crappy weeks resale, knows that but figured out a way to get them anyway. Well now it's time to pay the pipper. The system will be tilted to the advantgae of the higher demanded weeks which is should be. As my daughter would say " oh snap "

Just an FYI
This has become the 3rd most viewed thread in Marriott and should go to 2nd soon. 1st is of course is AOC and what a great job some people are doing in getting AOC dues to continue to go up. 





m61376 said:


> It would theoretically be an issue only if the majority of owners switch over. The more weeks that are converted, the more weeks that are allocated to the points system. On the other hand, there are fewer deeded week owners competing for those remaining weeks.
> 
> I think the reservation system works, to some extent, because there are so many units for Marriott to manipulate. Effectively creating two systems, with proportional inventory allotted to each, will potentially make room control a nightmare to manage. Their current reservation system has its own problems- can you imagine dealing with reservations in two distinct systems?!


----------



## Transit

Fletch said:


> I would expect very few PP week owners to join since they mostly use there weeks. We sold Aruba Platinum and Gold as traders so they should be a big portion. At even $400 a pop to convert, I expect alot of owners to wait and see what other think. Just an FYI, the sales people get ZERO for an owner to convert so they will be pushing new sales only !! I expect it will take 5 years to get anywhere near 30% converted.
> 
> Ok, want to know



Marriott still owns prime inventory at their some of their best resorts. Dangle that top shelf unsold inventory like a shiny carrot in a points system and owners will join in droves.


----------



## jlf58

Speaking of which, not they they would do this , but I would expect Marco Island Platinum weeks to have a VERY high point value. I am just sayin LOL





Transit said:


> Marriott still owns prime inventory at their some of their best resorts. Dangle that top shelf unsold inventory like a shiny carrot in a points system and owners will join in droves.


----------



## m61376

Transit said:


> Marriott still owns prime inventory at their some of their best resorts. Dangle that top shelf unsold inventory like a shiny carrot in a points system and owners will join in droves.



But a lot of their other top resorts are sold out for Platinum Plus and many even for Platinum.


----------



## jlf58

Marco Island Platinum will never sell out without pts help 



m61376 said:


> But a lot of their other top resorts are sold out for Platinum Plus and many even for Platinum.


----------



## m61376

Fletch said:


> Speaking of which, not they they would do this , but I would expect Marco Island Platinum weeks to have a VERY high point value. I am just sayin LOL



That's exactly one of my underlying concerns wrt the possible new system. Will the newest resort- or the one they are having trouble selling at- suddenly have a disproportional point allocation? Great for sales, but not so great if current owners ever want to trade into newer resorts.


----------



## m61376

Fletch said:


> Marco Island Platinum will never sell out without pts help



Not surprising. I was referring to perhaps more popular destinations where Plat. weeks are sold old (or almost sold out).

Will that "help" consist of possibly a skewed point allocation? And then where does Marriott go from there for the next resort?


----------



## cruisin

Marriott can just pick up one PP on ROFR at every resort and sell the dream to every new buyer of Christas or new years  in Hawaii or on the slopes.


----------



## Superchief

IMO, this new system will primarily appeal to those who purchased platinum weeks with the purpose of frequent exchanging, or who bought in destinations that are more expensive to travel to on a regular basis. Why would a platinum week owner at Ocean Pointe who uses their week 50%+ of the time want to buy into a point system with no home resort advantage? The whole concept of purchasing where you want to vacation goes away. Why own a timeshare at all?


----------



## timeos2

*If there is one then it's available.*



m61376 said:


> But a lot of their other top resorts are sold out for Platinum Plus and many even for Platinum.



They only need one week in the system to truthfully state "It's available". I'd bet they can finagle that (or even 2 or 3) at every resort quite easily. They don't have to say how easy/hard it will be to GET one, just that they exist. You know how convincing sales weasel 1/2 truths can be in the carefully designed frenzy of the sales pitch.  Most potential buyers are not TUG savvy and can be easily swayed into the pretty picture painted for them.  Two years later IF they aren't satisfied its way too late to back out.  And most probably would be satisfied as they play with their expensive new points toy.


----------



## timeos2

*Hey buy here, get mucho points & go anywhere!*



Fletch said:


> Marco Island Platinum will never sell out without pts help



An investment they already made and desperately need to sell. Another reason to roll out points.


----------



## PerryM

*The insanity of the masses....*

I don't see Marriott ever taking title to a week - they will simply confiscate usage for so many years - my guess is 3 years.

Marriott will make joining the new exchange system very enticing - so enticing that the "One time special - these conversion goodies are ONLY available this week and will never be offered again" will be simply too much for the normal Marriott owner - they will convert in droves.


----------



## timeos2

*The sheep will line up for the shearing. And it may not even hurt*



PerryM said:


> I don't see Marriott ever taking title to a week - they will simply confiscate usage for so many years - my guess is 3 years.
> 
> Marriott will make joining the new exchange system very enticing - so enticing that the "One time special - these conversion goodies are ONLY available this week and will never be offered again" will be simply too much for the normal Marriott owner - they will convert in droves.



Mark this down. Perry & I agree 100% on this one.  Points systems have features that sell themselves and many owners are easily swayed to buy in to the promises.  If they roll out even a half way decent system it will be extremely successful. There are far more "normal" Marriott owners then there are truly informed Marriott owners. The normal accept what they are told as gospel and willingly by in.


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> ...........
> Ok, want to know what I get a good laugh at . I sold very few crappy weeks ie. Gold in Park City, Bronze anywhere etc. They whole II system is based on like for like so except for 60 days or less, you should not be able to get a Platinum week with a Bronze or low demand Gold week. Everyone who bought these crappy weeks resale, knows that but figured out a way to get them anyway. Well now it's time to pay the pipper. The system will be tilted to the advantgae of the higher demanded weeks which is should be. As my daughter would say " oh snap "..........



This makes me very happy that we bought Silver season at Ocean Point because we wanted to use that particular season. The only problem is, we purchased a 3 bedroom with the thought that we'd eventually need the additional room as the kids grew up and had kids of their own. Now here we are, 10 years down the road with the kids at 30 and 27, still no grandchildren and niether yet ready to take vacations and travel. 

I don't see myself putting this week into any points based program unless there's some advantage to us putting our Platinum Grand Chateau week in and putting our Ocean Pointe week in along with it. 

Time will tell and everything depends on what the actual program will be.


----------



## dougp26364

Superchief said:


> IMO, this new system will primarily appeal to those who purchased platinum weeks with the purpose of frequent exchanging, or who bought in destinations that are more expensive to travel to on a regular basis. Why would a platinum week owner at Ocean Pointe who uses their week 50%+ of the time want to buy into a point system with no home resort advantage? The whole concept of purchasing where you want to vacation goes away. Why own a timeshare at all?



This is exactly why I think much of this is needless speculation and scary possiblity rather than what will be reality once we see the new program. There are far to many points systems out there with happy owners who enjoy their points based reseravtions systems to believe Marriott would screw this up so badly it would be one of the worst systems ever conceived.

The only points based systems I'm aware of that have no home resort advantage are trust based ownerships where you own an interst in a trust and not a deeded week at a particular resort. Even those still have a home resort advantage giving members in a particular trust a one month jump on all other points members. After that deeded week owners get a two month jump on anyone else wanting to reserve using points. 

So, are we saying that Marriott will no longer sell deeded weeks? Are we saying that they'll go go some sort of trust based ownership where a member buys into a group of resorts, maybe something like the Florida Club? Or are we saying they'll come out with some new animal that's the absolute worst thing any timeshare owner can imagine?


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Anything Wrong With Marco Island Platinum ?*




Fletch said:


> Marco Island Platinum will never sell out without pts help


What's wrong with Marco Island ? 

I mean, shux, it's not like you're talking _Merritt Island_. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## Transit

m61376 said:


> But a lot of their other top resorts are sold out for Platinum Plus and many even for Platinum.



    Your thinking in terms of only a fraction of Marriott units.There are openings even at top resorts for other seasons. Plat plus and plat are of small percentage of all weeks. Most of the weeks are not PLATS. Being able to trade up to one of the nicer resorts *will be a strong lure even if its off season or only a one bedroom.*. Most folks will like the idea of trading up to a resort or season which was unobtainable before. Other systems even let you borrow points from your next years usage so you can have enough points from a weak trader to visit a resort that requires more points.
      There may even be a daily usage within the points system like Hyatt has so you can reserve/use points from a low bronze week to stay 3 or 4 days at a much better resort/season. I'LL be watching to see how it plays out .Marriott going to a points system has peaked my interest. I'll play the game.


----------



## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> This makes me very happy that we bought Silver season at Ocean Point because we wanted to use that particular season. The only problem is, we purchased a 3 bedroom with the thought that we'd eventually need the additional room as the kids grew up and had kids of their own. Now here we are, 10 years down the road with the kids at 30 and 27, still no grandchildren and niether yet ready to take vacations and travel.
> 
> I don't see myself putting this week into any points based program unless there's some advantage to us putting our Platinum Grand Chateau week in and putting our Ocean Pointe week in along with it.
> 
> Time will tell and everything depends on what the actual program will be.



Of course, time will tell.  But I'm wondering why you're considering the relative value of your 3BR Silver only if a new system is workable with your other week, and not as a stand-alone week.  If a points system allows you to trade your Silver 3BR for a Gold 2BR at any equal-quality resort or for a Platinum 1BR at a higher-quality resort, or for 2 or 3 Silver 1BR weeks at OP, wouldn't those options fit your vacationing lifestyle now?

I'm sorry if I have your thinking process all wrong.  But I'm hoping that a new points system will have this type of flexibility, and that 3BR units anywhere will be valuable simply because they are limited inventory.  Am I dreaming?


----------



## DanCali

*Almost...*

There was a period of 18 hours when it looked like this thread would finally die down but now it's all buzzing again...

The only thing this thread accomplishes is that it may scare away potential resale buyers, thus potentially having a negative effect on resale prices. Guess who rejoices when that happens? It does not affect retail buyers because they usually are not familiar with TUG... We are all playing into the hands of Marriott salespeople...

THESE RUMORS HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS. THEY ARE STILL JUST RUMORS. There has been *nothing* official from Marriott. I haven't even seen a salesperson put any of this in writing to a potential client - they talk about it with potential customers but when they summarize conversations in emails they talk about other things highlighting retail "benefits" (point cenversion benefit, vacation advisor, etc).

It just started with an innocent question from a confused potential retail buyer. I am not sure why this thread is so different than dozens of others that discuss the same topic over the past 3-4 years. All it does is bring up dozens of alternatives to something that may not even happen at all. Personally, I'll just wait and see what happens (or not) in June. Discussing te same things over and over again accomplishes nothing, in my opinion, other than that someone can say "I told you so" IF anything happens down the road.  ..


----------



## Transit

DanCali said:


> There was a period of 18 hours when it looked like this thread would finally die down but now it's all buzzing again...
> 
> The only thing this thread accomplishes is that it may scare away potential resale buyers, thus potentially having a negative effect on resale prices. Guess who rejoices when that happens? It does not affect retail buyers because they usually are not familiar with TUG... We are all playing into the hands of Marriott salespeople...
> 
> THESE RUMORS HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS. THEY ARE STILL JUST RUMORS. There has been *nothing* official from Marriott. I haven't even seen a salesperson put any of this in writing to a potential client - they talk about it with potential customers but when they summarize conversations in emails they talk about other things highlighting retail "benefits" (point cenversion benefit, vacation advisor, etc).
> 
> It just started with an innocent question from a confused potential retail buyer. I am not sure why this thread is so different than dozens of others that discuss the same topic over the past 3-4 years. All it does is bring up dozens of alternatives to something that may not even happen at all. Personally, I'll just wait and see what happens (or not) in June. Discussing te same things over and over again accomplishes nothing, in my opinion, other than that someone can say "I told you so" IF anything happens down the road.  ..



I disagree, It's actually peaked my interest in Marriott resale.


----------



## jlf58

Thats exactly how you should buy a Marriott. My biggest owner complaint was II. The best internal MVCI joke is MVCI needs II because without them, who else could them blame for people not getting thier exchange  




dougp26364 said:


> This makes me very happy that we bought Silver season at Ocean Point because we wanted to use that particular season. QUOTE]


----------



## jlf58

Nothing except for the price. Marriott lowered Platinum 35% and it's still overpriced. 



AwayWeGo said:


> What's wrong with Marco Island ?
> 
> I mean, shux, it's not like you're talking _Merritt Island_.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## jlf58

hello ? This is NOT a rumor. I heard it directly from "high up"  that everyone was told to get this done by mid June. I personally think it will be delayed a month or so but it will be close. Certain sales depts were told they could get fired it they talk about it. The reason is why would someone buy NOW with a new program so close. the sales people that are discussing it and not helping themselves.



DanCali said:


> There was a period of 18 hours when it looked like this thread would finally die down but now it's all buzzing again...
> 
> The only thing this thread accomplishes is that it may scare away potential resale buyers, thus potentially having a negative effect on resale prices. Guess who rejoices when that happens? It does not affect retail buyers because they usually are not familiar with TUG... We are all playing into the hands of Marriott salespeople...
> 
> THESE RUMORS HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS. THEY ARE STILL JUST RUMORS. There has been *nothing* official from Marriott. I haven't even seen a salesperson put any of this in writing to a potential client - they talk about it with potential customers but when they summarize conversations in emails they talk about other things highlighting retail "benefits" (point cenversion benefit, vacation advisor, etc).
> 
> It just started with an innocent question from a confused potential retail buyer. I am not sure why this thread is so different than dozens of others that discuss the same topic over the past 3-4 years. All it does is bring up dozens of alternatives to something that may not even happen at all. Personally, I'll just wait and see what happens (or not) in June. Discussing te same things over and over again accomplishes nothing, in my opinion, other than that someone can say "I told you so" IF anything happens down the road.  ..


----------



## jlf58

Actually I think Doug's 3bd will be fine. Remember Oceana palms doesn't even have silver season as silver OP is really Gold and will trade well. Add to that the 3bd oceanfront and it will do even better. My guess is better views will get a bit more points. 



SueDonJ said:


> Of course, time will tell.  But I'm wondering why you're considering the relative value of your 3BR Silver only if a new system is workable with your other week, and not as a stand-alone week.  If a points system allows you to trade your Silver 3BR for a Gold 2BR at any equal-quality resort or for a Platinum 1BR at a higher-quality resort, or for 2 or 3 Silver 1BR weeks at OP, wouldn't those options fit your vacationing lifestyle now?
> 
> I'm sorry if I have your thinking process all wrong.  But I'm hoping that a new points system will have this type of flexibility, and that 3BR units anywhere will be valuable simply because they are limited inventory.  Am I dreaming?


----------



## ondeadlin

The most interesting aspect of this, to me, will be watching how Marriott assigns point values. It will be absolutely fascinating and should expose what we all already know, i.e. that prime season in Orlando or Branson sure isn't the same as prime season in Hawaii or Park City.

But there are many things beyond that which are interesting.

What is a fixed 1BR ski week in Vail worth? Not a great property, but a lot of demand. It might actually give value back to those weeks. Same for Breckenridge. 

Vegas was sold as platinum season year-round, but anyone familiar with Vegas knows that's ridiculous. Will different points be awarded for different reserved weeks? I doubt it, because it's too complicated. Does that make Vegas a way to game the system? Perhaps.

Will they give different points for different views? Again, very complicated, but another selling point if they do.

I could think of dozens of similar questions. Again, it will be very interesting to watch. 

I expect there will be ways to exploit the system. There always are. But the issue of steadily rising MF will be a problem, just as it is currently.


----------



## jlf58

As much as I would love to see Perry's Gold Summit Watch week suffer, there will always be a loophole 

Regaarding views, You get more marriott rewards points with a better view in most cases so that should give you a hint that getting more trade points for a better view will help drive oceanfront and oceanside sales more than gardenview 



ondeadlin said:


> The most interesting aspect of this, to me, will be watching how Marriott assigns point values. It will be absolutely fascinating and should expose what we all already know, i.e. that prime season in Orlando or Branson sure isn't the same as prime season in Hawaii or Park City.
> 
> But there are many things beyond that which are interesting.
> 
> What is a fixed 1BR ski week in Vail worth? Not a great property, but a lot of demand. It might actually give value back to those weeks. Same for Breckenridge.
> 
> Vegas was sold as platinum season year-round, but anyone familiar with Vegas knows that's ridiculous. Will different points be awarded for different reserved weeks? I doubt it, because it's too complicated. Does that make Vegas a way to game the system? Perhaps.
> 
> Will they give different points for different views? Again, very complicated, but another selling point if they do.
> 
> I could think of dozens of similar questions. Again, it will be very interesting to watch.
> 
> I expect there will be ways to exploit the system. There always are. But the issue of steadily rising MF will be a problem, just as it is currently.


----------



## jlf58

gee, thanks John. Didn't your Momma teach you if you don't have nothing nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all  ? 
If you want to trash people, what about those HOA people who rip people off yearly  



timeos2 said:


> . You know how convincing sales weasel 1/2 truths can be in the carefully designed frenzy of the sales pitch.


----------



## dougp26364

SueDonJ said:


> Of course, time will tell.  But I'm wondering why you're considering the relative value of your 3BR Silver only if a new system is workable with your other week, and not as a stand-alone week.  If a points system allows you to trade your Silver 3BR for a Gold 2BR at any equal-quality resort or for a Platinum 1BR at a higher-quality resort, or for 2 or 3 Silver 1BR weeks at OP, wouldn't those options fit your vacationing lifestyle now?
> 
> I'm sorry if I have your thinking process all wrong.  But I'm hoping that a new points system will have this type of flexibility, and that 3BR units anywhere will be valuable simply because they are limited inventory.  Am I dreaming?



What I'm thinking is that since we use this week every year, there's no sense in putting paying to put it into any other type of exchange system Marriott might come up with. The only reason I'll move it to another internal exchange system is if putting our Grand Chateau week into the new system makes sense. 

Even then, I get such good value trading our studio lock-off of our Ocean Pointe week that putting it into any new system might be foolish for us. I might not be able to pull off Marriott to Marriott exchanges after the new system comes out but, my bet is I'll still be able to get what I want and move up in size from studio to one bedroom. 

If I move that unit into a points based exchange system, I won't be able to work that studio unit into a larger unit. Granted it will be a more equitable system but, it might be better for me to leave that one out of the system unless combining it with our Platinum week works out better than I'm thinking it will.

Essentially, what I was saying is that buying an off season week wasn't a bad move so long as it was a season you want to travel in. Silver season works for us at this particular resort only because that's when we want to be there. The studio unit has been an extra exchange week for us and we've received great value for it when exchanging with Interval. Moving it to a points based system that would not allow us to trade that unit up won't make sense but, if those extra points generated by that unit plus the points generated by our Platinum week give us enough points to get what would be considered a more prime week, maybe it will make sense.


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> Thats exactly how you should buy a Marriott. My biggest owner complaint was II. The best internal MVCI joke is MVCI needs II because without them, who else could them blame for people not getting thier exchange
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dougp26364 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This makes me very happy that we bought Silver season at Ocean Point because we wanted to use that particular season. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oddly enough we've done very well with Interval. This year we exchanged our studio Ocean Pointe silver season week for a one bedroom Mountain Valley Lodge June week. Probably about equal in season but still a move up in size.
> 
> Likewise we've exchanged May Ocean Pointe studio weeks for one and two bedroom November and December Branson weeks several times. Again, probably moving from equitable season to season (lower demand) but moving up in size.
> 
> We've also exchange our 2 bedroom MGC for two bedroom units in Newport Coast and Kauai. The one bedroom units at MGC has been used to trade back into MGC for a different year, one bedroom at Custom House and this year a two bedroom at Harbor Club in Harbor Town on HHI.
> 
> I'd say Interval hasn't been one of my complaints but, I know that I can't expect great trades if I wait until last minute. The owners I've spoken with who have been unhappy with their ability to exchange have been asking exchanges like summer weeks in Hawaii using silver season Ocean Pointe weeks AND making their request at the 3 to 5 month mark. Many have just had unrealistic expectations based on unrealistic stories told by sales people who allowed them to believe not only that anything was possible, it was probable.
Click to expand...


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> Actually I think Doug's 3bd will be fine. Remember Oceana palms doesn't even have silver season as silver OP is really Gold and will trade well. Add to that the 3bd oceanfront and it will do even better. My guess is better views will get a bit more points.



I know that's one thing I'll be interested to see. Two properties less than a mile apart with different seasons. Some of those Ocean Pointe silver weeks happen to be in Platinum season for Oceana Palms. Seems to me that Marriott has messed up the seasons at one of these two resorts. Either the Platinum season at Oceana Palms is to long or the gold season at Ocean Pointe is to short. Probably a combination of both.

If we had waited for Oceana Palms, the times we like to travel would have overlapped between gold and platinum seasons. A points based system where we could buy platinum yet stay in gold would have worked well for us at this particular property.


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> As much as I would love to see Perry's Gold Summit Watch week suffer, there will always be a loophole
> 
> Regaarding views, You get more marriott rewards points with a better view in most cases so that should give you a hint that getting more trade points for a better view will help drive oceanfront and oceanside sales more than gardenview



Makes me glad that, not only did we buy in the season we wanted but, we bought the best view/unit location possible. We didn't need the three bedroom MGC unit but, we wanted the end cap view and floor to ceiling windows it provided. Thus we bought the larger unit because it had the better view.

The Ocean Pointe three bedroom was purchased because we liked it's layout better than the two bedroom unit and, we assumed we'd eventually be able to use the extra space. Until the kids start traveling with us, we'll us the two bedroom master suite and trade the studio unit. Fortunately for us, it's worked out that we've been able to trade the studio up to larger units. Even though it's just the two of us, studio's are just to confining.

Most of this thread makes for interesting reading. Some of what's posted will come true but, a lot of it will be somewhat off the mark. What I'm waiting to see is if Marriott tries to go to a trust based, no home resort style of system or if it's just converting deeded weeks into a point value for an internal exchange system. It could be a combination of both so, many of the guesses here on what will happen with be partially true but mostly wrong. 

At the very least, it gives me something to look forward to this summer. To bad it won't take place before our trip in May.


----------



## JimIg23

We have done pretty well with II, but it has been with more even trades, but one upgrade to a 2 bedroom.  This is the first year we will see if II comes thru.  I am trying to get Hawaii (summer 2011) this year with my NCV (summer) and MHZ deposited weeks.  With the new system, I am pretty confident that it would take both weeks to get one Hawaii week, if they even had the inventory......


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## ricki999

> hello ? This is NOT a rumor. I heard it directly from "high up" that everyone was told to get this done by mid June.



While I don't doubt the information in the slightest, it is a rumor and hearsay by definition.

hear·say (hîrs)
n.
1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.


----------



## jlf58

Ok, so what I heard was NOT a rumor but fact  since I heard it direct. 



ricki999 said:


> While I don't doubt the information in the slightest, it is a rumor and hearsay by definition.
> 
> hear·say (hîrs)
> n.
> 1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.


----------



## ricki999

> Ok, so what I heard was NOT a rumor but fact since I heard it direct.



And very valuable information I might add, I just wish Marriott would officially respond to the rumors.


----------



## scrapngen

*Fletch,*

This is a huge thread to keep up w/ but have you ever said or do you know whether the deeds will stay w/TS owners, or will they give that up for the "privileges" of the new system?? For PP owners, why would they join and give up their certainty of their prime weeks if there is no home resort advantage, and they no longer have a deed?? You did say that those are the people who will benefit most from the new system, I thought. Just wondering how that works...

Thanks for sharing and oh, do let us know if we can get a decent deal to go try out the new Disney Hawaii property


----------



## timeos2

*My fees! My fees! What will happen to my fees?*



Fletch said:


> gee, thanks John. Didn't your Momma teach you if you don't have nothing nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all  ?
> If you want to trash people, what about those HOA people who rip people off yearly



THOSE CADS!  I hope to find a few of them & give them a piece of my mind!


----------



## jlf58

Not sure of the details but I was told the pts will still be deeded.

What's to try ?, it will be a slam dunk 



scrapngen said:


> This is a huge thread to keep up w/ but have you ever said or do you know whether the deeds will stay w/TS owners, or will they give that up for the "privileges" of the new system?? For PP owners, why would they join and give up their certainty of their prime weeks if there is no home resort advantage, and they no longer have a deed?? You did say that those are the people who will benefit most from the new system, I thought. Just wondering how that works...
> 
> Thanks for sharing and oh, do let us know if we can get a decent deal to go try out the new Disney Hawaii property


----------



## rickandcindy23

ondeadlin said:


> What is a fixed 1BR ski week in Vail worth? Not a great property, but a lot of demand. It might actually give value back to those weeks. Same for Breckenridge.



I think the value of Colorado's Marriott properties will be rated high in the system, considering the demand for winter ski and the lack of Marriotts now that some of the Streamside went to VRI.  

II's system is flooded with Hyatts, Grand Timber, Peak 7, and many others, so the demand is met with plentiful supply.  Put in an ongoing search for something in Breck for ski, and you will get it.  There are lots of last-minute sightings here on TUG as well.  

I know II TURNED DOWN Val Chatelle in their system, when we wanted to dual-affiliate, because we have only six timeshare units in Frisco.  They apparently don't need or want more weeks in Summit or Eagle Counties.


----------



## PerryM

*Ring....Ring.... MVCI calling.........*

If Marriott wanted to keep this top secret a simple NDA signed by the top guys would have stopped this for 4+ years now.  Since Marriott wants to keep floating trial balloons then our input is of importance to them.

Selling something you don't have, like a brand new internal exchange system, results in no sales and actually results in fewer timeshare sales - you better believe Marriott is listening to us - they paid dearly for this feedback.

Implementing a fundamentally new way to sell timeshares in the middle of a real estate meltdown is a sign of desperation - the old ways of ambushing Ma and Pa on vacation is getting stale and they are willing to bet MVCI that this new sales scheme will do the job.

Well best of luck Marriott - I know you'll use all the old standard tricks trying to convert owners to the new system that you control and will use as your primary sales tool - Points.

Maybe no one at Marriott told the guys cooking up this scheme that this is absolutely the worst time to implement this.  You want to get more money from folks who are hurting - so the salesrep's new job is to call me, the typical Marriott owner and say:

"Hi Perry, Marriott just introduced a new way to own and use your Summit Watch and right now, this very phone call, I am authorized to offer you the following:


Pre-Release pricing - your Gold Summit Watch's conversion price is 10% of resales which is about $10k or $1,000 - If you give me your credit card number I am authorized to spread the payments over 36 easy payments with NO finance charge - but you must convert this instant.

Your Summit Watch will generate 1,500 Points per year and if you convert today I am authorized to throw in and additional 1,500 Points and 50,000 MRPs - but you must convert this instant.

You will get first access to Summit Watch by 30 days before non Summit Watch owners - but you must convert this instant.

Membership in the new exchange system is NOT transferable unless you buy the super duper membership level (we have many membership levels by the way) and the Platinum level allows you to sell your week and the membership goes with it.  I am authorized to make you a Platinum member - but you must convert this instant.

Perry, I could go on and on but just give me your credit card and let's get you going in the future new direction of MVCI.  If you don't convert this instant all these goodies evaporate and will NEVER be offered to you again.

So Perry are you going to join at the Platinum Membership Level or pay the mortgage on your house?  Which is more important?"

Ok, my American Express card number is .......................

Folks, this is the kind of call you will get and the vast majority of you will buckle like a sand castle when the tide rolls in.  You don't stand a chance...


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> Ok, so what I heard was NOT a rumor but fact  since I heard it direct.



The thing is, while I'm sure you know what you've heard, it's still just a plan until implimented. I've seen sure fire can't miss information miss just because something was scrapped at the last minute.


----------



## dougp26364

scrapngen said:


> This is a huge thread to keep up w/ but have you ever said or do you know whether the deeds will stay w/TS owners, or will they give that up for the "privileges" of the new system?? For PP owners, why would they join and give up their certainty of their prime weeks if there is no home resort advantage, and they no longer have a deed?? You did say that those are the people who will benefit most from the new system, I thought. Just wondering how that works...
> 
> Thanks for sharing and oh, do let us know if we can get a decent deal to go try out the new Disney Hawaii property



Keep in mind that some systems allow you to keep your deeded week and allow you to exchange that week into the points system at your discreation.

With DRI, I own a deeded week 36 which is a fixed week/fixed unit week. While this isn't a PP week, it's still a fixed week. After I joined DRI's points based system I am allowed to either keep this week each year or, if I'm not going to use it, deposit it into DRI's points based club in exchange for points. 

By contrast when I joined DRI's points based club and put our floating week into it, that week converts to points without my having to call. That week is automtic.

To assume this will be a hard and fast do or don't club is a mistake. It might be something that is extremely flexible and could be of great value to owners. PP week owners may be able to join any new points based program yet retain the right to use their week if they so choose.


----------



## scrapngen

dougp26364 said:


> Keep in mind that some systems allow you to keep your deeded week and allow you to exchange that week into the points system at your discreation.
> 
> With DRI, I own a deeded week 36 which is a fixed week/fixed unit week. While this isn't a PP week, it's still a fixed week. After I joined DRI's points based system I am allowed to either keep this week each year or, if I'm not going to use it, deposit it into DRI's points based club in exchange for points.
> 
> By contrast when I joined DRI's points based club and put our floating week into it, that week converts to points without my having to call. That week is automtic.
> 
> To assume this will be a hard and fast do or don't club is a mistake. It might be something that is extremely flexible and could be of great value to owners. PP week owners may be able to join any new points based program yet retain the right to use their week if they so choose.



THanks, being a newbie still, while I have read a lot about points here on TUG, it is still somewhat of a mystery. In many ways I see the advantages of points systems and am actually somewhat optimistic that it would be a great thing for Marriott. Many people like their points systems, and why do we have to assume the worst here - but with all these people feeling threatened, wonder how this will work out. Since I'm "sitting pretty" with PP weeks in Hawaii, according to Fletch and others on this site I'm going to jump on this and do well. But if Marriott in general gets the reputation of some of these other systems that went down this road before, than I still feel worried and my TS may not be so great anymore. The reputation of the Marriott TS's and feelings of good-will are a big part of what we purchased, so if Fletch has already jumped ship and the Starwood people are "chicken-little ing" then...
Shouldn't I at least be paying major attention?

Marriott, if you're listening - make sure this is a win-win for most, or everyone will potentially lose. (yes, even you in the long run, if your reputation in TS gets tarnished)


----------



## DanCali

Fletch said:


> Ok, so what I heard was NOT a rumor but fact  since I heard it direct.



If it's a fact, please point me to the official MVCI press release and to the rules and regulations of the program so I can figure out if I made a mistake buying into Marriott...

The fact of the matter, as other pointed out, is that it's a rumor. It satisfies the definition of a "rumor" posted before, as well as the two from Merriam Webster:

*ru-mor*:
1 : talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2 : a statement or report current without known authority for its truth


There is absolutely no compelling reason to believe this:



Fletch said:


> hello ? This is NOT a rumor. I heard it directly from "high up"  that everyone was told to get this done by mid June.



over this:



m61376 said:


> While I wasn't wasting vacation time playing on the Internet so was unaware of this thread, I had an interesting discussion while away, very different than what was posted here. I was told that the powers that be had filtered down instructions not even to discuss the rumored points system and that it may never be introduced. My source indicated that the whole thing was quite iffy at this point.



Two unnamed sources high in the organization - with totally conflicting information... :annoyed: 

Marriott salespeople spread this rumor 4 years ago and they have no interest in it dying down. This is absolutely no different than you and your neighbor selling similar houses, you asking for half the price, and your neighbor telling all your potential buyers that your house is haunted or built on a sinkhole... fiction or not, you will have a harder time selling for the low price and they get to justify the higher price.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Marriott is looking at a points system. In fact, the MVCI sales organization would love this and are either spearheading the process or at least have substantial input. This would be a godsend to them.

But MVCI is not just a bunch os salespeople starting from scratch. It's 50 resorts with almost half a million owners. As I pointed out before, for every Hawaii owner who will get 12 days in Orlando you will necessarily have an Orlando owner who gets 3 days in Hawaii. It has to be that way; it's a zero sum game. This is not what existing owners bought into. Inevitably, half of the owners will probably not like it if and when it's launched. The previous poster suggests "make it win-win" - in my opinion that's impossible - not when all existing owners bought into the idea of 7 day exchanges. Moreover, even among the owners who like it at first, the scenario of inventory getting split between Marriott and II is likely to have some of those Marco Island or Hawaii owners who thought they would get 12 days anywhere severely disappointed after the dust settles. The whole system may result in 75% dissatisfied owners not too long after it launches.

I doubt a quarter of a million owners venting on TUG and to everyone they know will help their sales efforts... not with a 7-10 recission period. Word of mouth is a very powerful thing (good and bad). If MVCI and Marriott (not MVCI sales; they have a different agenda) can live with the risk of alienating the majority of MVCI owners, who are among their most loyal and affluent customers, maybe this thing will see the light of day. I happen to think they are smarter than that...


----------



## dougp26364

scrapngen said:


> THanks, being a newbie still, while I have read a lot about points here on TUG, it is still somewhat of a mystery. In many ways I see the advantages of points systems and am actually somewhat optimistic that it would be a great thing for Marriott. Many people like their points systems, and why do we have to assume the worst here - but with all these people feeling threatened, wonder how this will work out. Since I'm "sitting pretty" with PP weeks in Hawaii, according to Fletch and others on this site I'm going to jump on this and do well. But if Marriott in general gets the reputation of some of these other systems that went down this road before, than I still feel worried and my TS may not be so great anymore. The reputation of the Marriott TS's and feelings of good-will are a big part of what we purchased, so if Fletch has already jumped ship and the Starwood people are "chicken-little ing" then...
> Shouldn't I at least be paying major attention?
> 
> Marriott, if you're listening - make sure this is a win-win for most, or everyone will potentially lose. (yes, even you in the long run, if your reputation in TS gets tarnished)



Change scares a lot of people. It scares them so bad they'll stand still when they should move. Most of us here have learned to work the current system to our advantage and now that way of life looks like it will change. 

It's possible that some of us have learned to work the current system and get more from it than we own. On the surface a points based system looks to be more equitable and tougher to trade up or get more for your money. The reality is that points systems have the same loop holes to be exploited as any weeks based exchange program. The thing is, if you bought strictly to exchange, you may find yourself poorly positioned to take advantage of a new system.

What you're reading on this thread is a ton of speculation and a lot of fear. It's like the story of chicken little who ran around crying that the sky is falling based on very little solid information that he read the wrong way. 

If points systems were evil, they wouldn't be as popular as they are now. Marriott is just about the last major timeshare chain to enter the party, yet everyone seems to assume that Marriott's system will screw current owners over. There seems to be no thought that Marriott might actually take the best of all the other systems and meld it into one super system that outshines all the rest. It's easier to be pessimistic than optimistic and that's what you're reading on this thread.

Sure some owners won't fare as well as others. This is why I've always proffesed that one should buy where they want to own rather than buy just to exchange. The rules for exchange ALWAYS change. If you buy strictly for exchange, be prepared for change or, be prepared to sell and buy again. Buying strictly to exchange is like building your house on the sand instead of the rock. Eventually, a tide will come in and wash your house away.

I think owners like Perry have built their houses on the sand. Now comes the wave of change and they're concerned that their ability to work the system will be lost. If you own a week because you bought that resort, not the promise to exchange into the resorts you really wanted, you'll be fine. If you bought cheap to exchange into more expensive resorts, you may be dissapointed. But fear not, you don't have to join any new program. You can still keep and use your week plus, I.I. isn't going anywhere. It might be that you'll have to consider non-Marriott weeks more often but, you'll still be able to exchange.


----------



## jlf58

It wasn't filtered down an doesn't satisfy the definition of a "rumor". Hey, I have something you might want to look up the definition on ...




DanCali said:


> If it's a fact, please point me to the official MVCI press release and to the rules and regulations of the program so I can figure out if I made a mistake buying into Marriott...
> 
> The fact of the matter, as other pointed out, is that it's a rumor. It satisfies the definition of a "rumor" posted before, as well as the two from Merriam Webster:
> 
> *ru-mor*:
> 1 : talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
> 2 : a statement or report current without known authority for its truth
> 
> 
> There is absolutely no compelling reason to believe this:
> 
> 
> 
> over this:
> 
> 
> 
> Two unnamed sources high in the organization - with totally conflicting information... :annoyed:
> 
> Marriott salespeople spread this rumor 4 years ago and they have no interest in it dying down. This is absolutely no different than you and your neighbor selling similar houses, you asking for half the price, and your neighbor telling all your potential buyers that your house is haunted or built on a sinkhole... fiction or not, you will have a harder time selling for the low price and they get to justify the higher price.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Marriott is looking at a points system. In fact, the MVCI sales organization would love this and are either spearheading the process or at least have substantial input. This would be a godsend to them.
> 
> But MVCI is not just a bunch os salespeople starting from scratch. It's 50 resorts with almost half a million owners. As I pointed out before, for every Hawaii owner who will get 12 days in Orlando you will necessarily have an Orlando owner who gets 3 days in Hawaii. It has to be that way; it's a zero sum game. This is not what existing owners bought into. Inevitably, half of the owners will probably not like it if and when it's launched. The previous poster suggests "make it win-win" - in my opinion that's impossible - not when all existing owners bought into the idea of 7 day exchanges. Moreover, even among the owners who like it at first, the scenario of inventory getting split between Marriott and II is likely to have some of those Marco Island or Hawaii owners who thought they would get 12 days anywhere severely disappointed after the dust settles. The whole system may result in 75% dissatisfied owners not too long after it launches.
> 
> I doubt a quarter of a million owners venting on TUG and to everyone they know will help their sales efforts... not with a 7-10 recission period. Word of mouth is a very powerful thing (good and bad). If MVCI and Marriott (not MVCI sales; they have a different agenda) can live with the risk of alienating the majority of MVCI owners, who are among their most loyal and affluent customers, maybe this thing will see the light of day. I happen to think they are smarter than that...


----------



## timeos2

dougp26364 said:


> Change scares a lot of people. It scares them so bad they'll stand still when they should move. Most of us here have learned to work the current system to our advantage and now that way of life looks like it will change.
> 
> I think owners like Perry have built their houses on the sand. Now comes the wave of change and they're concerned that their ability to work the system will be lost. If you own a week because you bought that resort, not the promise to exchange into the resorts you really wanted, you'll be fine. If you bought cheap to exchange into more expensive resorts, you may be dissapointed. But fear not, you don't have to join any new program. You can still keep and use your week plus, I.I. isn't going anywhere. It might be that you'll have to consider non-Marriott weeks more often but, you'll still be able to exchange.



Doug - An excellent summary with some great timeshare advice embedded for those who heed it.  Nothing changes like timeshare exchange rules and values. Those that bought based on factors not guaranteed in their base purchase have and will continue to be burned as those outside forces are altered by others and they have zero control. This is not unique to Marriott thus the "buy to use" and purchase as low as you can (usually means resale) mantra's are ones that serve every potential buyer well if they pay attention.  Ignoring those for the latest deal on what amounts to a temporary bonus or loophole almost always leads to disappointment in the long run.


----------



## PerryM

*Mining the miners....*

Ok, Marriott convinced me to spend $1,000, spread over 36 monthly payments and I now have a Platinum Membership.  This means that any new Marriott Points I buy become Platinum and get all the benefits of Platinum membership.

(You do know that Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Bronze memberships will be sold - right?)

I want to spend President's week at MountainSide and need 5,500 Points.  What do I do?

I "roll forward" my 1,500 points to next year, and then next year get another 1,500 Points and borrow 1,500 Points from the year after next.  So next year I have 4,500 Points in my account - I'm short 1,000 Points - what do I do?

Well I have 2 million MRPs from all my past Marriott purchases and 10 MRPs = 1 new Point in the exchange system  - I convert 10,000 MRPs to 1,000 exchange Points and now have my 5,500 Points.

Since I'm a Platinum member I get first dibs at making the reservation and snag it.  I now have President's week at MountainSide!

Sadly some MountainSide Platinum Plus owners didn't take up the salesrep's advice and become Platinum Member of the new exchange system and are just Gold members - they have to wait for the Platinum Window of 30 days to expire before seeing Gold Member reservations.
-----------------------------

Marriott can cook up any kind of membership they want and integrate it with MRPs just like they do now with weeks.  It will look and feel just like the existing week based system moved over to a Points sytem.  Marriott just won't be able to help itself and do anything less.

The owners will still grumble and folks like me will still get Platinum Plus Holiday reservations with the new system - because we will master the system and maximize its usage to our benefit. (If it makes sense)

Nothing will change except there will be less inventory to pick from and some owners can't afford to convert will have their usage in II and they will have less choices too.

This is to no owner's advantage but Marriott's sales team which will rake in money form this scheme since they won't be building new Marriotts for years.

It's called "Mining the miners" - Levi Strauss invented it during the California Gold Rush; he made is fortune from all the miners who never struck it rich.


----------



## Superchief

*Point System Nothing New for Marriott*

When I purchased my timeshares from Marriott, they already offered a 'point system' that influenced my purchase decision. This system was the option to 'exchange' my week for Marriot Rewards points. Over the years, I have been very happy with my timeshare except for the significant devaluation of our rewards points. This was a major cause for dissatisfaction for most of us, and I stopped recommending MVC to friends and family. I am hopeful that Marriott is trying to rectify this situation with this new 'point' system, rather than to milk more dollars from people like me.


----------



## m61376

Doug- Once again I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you posted. IF Marriott develops the right system, it can be a more equitable system, but it is one thing when a system starts from scratch and everyone knows the rules going in and it is a far different thing when it is superimposed on people accustomed to the way things were. I think the big problem is going to be with lower season owners and/or even Plat. owners at "lesser" resorts who will find that they have to use perhaps multiple weeks to trade into a premium property. And, of course, multiple weeks means multiple MF's.

It will also be a problem with even premium week owners who don't have enough points to trade into what was considered an equal property (if you look at the Asia Pacific program, one Hawaii week can't even trade for another, like for like). As new properties get built or, like the case of Marco Island, need to be sold, Marriott can simply pile on the points to enhance sales; the flip side to that is owners of premium weeks elsewhere won't have enough points to trade into them like for like (size/number of days).

Putting aside the resale/direct issue (although I still feel Marriott should treat all current owners with the same equality as they bought into the system with), I think there are a lot of obstacles to overcome here. It is going to be difficult for Marriott to assign point values that are felt equitable across the board. Are values assigned according to resort demand, selling price (keeping in mind that the time factor may effect a disparity between at least perceived equal valuations of properties and prices), rental prices at Marriott.com or by some other barometer? I would think that setting point valuations based on retail rental prices would be a way of equalizing some of the discrepancies based on construction costs due to the time factor, but of course that would adjust everything to 2010 prices. The issue of point value inflation simply as a sales tool, so that newer weeks cost more to trade into, will increasingly make newer resorts out of the reach of older owners (at least wrt like for like trades). If point allocation was tied to some more independent variable (like relative rental prices, since that reflects supply and demand and, to a certain extent, fair market value), at least it wouldn't just be some arbitrary number which might be used as a sales tool when needed.

For me, at least, maintaining home resort priority and having the point system apply only for exchanges would be a critical point. I would not join under the rules of the Asia Pacific program. 

And, if not for the Asia Pacific program, I might be more optimistic like you that an organization like Marriott would be likely to get it right. I am not so sure after seeing that. I can see issues with use and I can foresee issues with MF's. I also think it speaks volumes that Fletch and 4 other top salespeople have abandoned ship, so to speak. I can only hope that some of the powers that be have begun to reconsider (and perhaps that was what my source was referencing) and, if they do in fact introduce a new program, that they take the time to consider all the ramifications and make it as equitable as possible.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> ...  So Perry are you going to join at the Platinum Membership Level or pay the mortgage on your house?  Which is more important?"
> 
> Ok, my American Express card number is .......................



Well geeze, Perry, it's now wonder you're askeered here, you don't know the first thing about Marriott.  American Express?!!?  You're supposed to use your Marriott VISA to get the MRP!  :rofl:


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> Well geeze, Perry, it's now wonder you're askeered here, you don't know the first thing about Marriott.  American Express?!!?  You're supposed to use your Marriott VISA to get the MRP!  :rofl:



Ever since I became a member of COSTCO a few months ago I use AE everywhere - but you are correct my Marriott Visa would get the business on that transaction.  What was I thinking...


----------



## PerryM

*Oh that dirty laundry...*



m61376 said:


> Doug- Once again I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you posted. IF Marriott develops the right system, it can be a more equitable system, but it is one thing when a system starts from scratch and everyone knows the rules going in and it is a far different thing when it is superimposed on people accustomed to the way things were. I think the big problem is going to be with lower season owners and/or even Plat. owners at "lesser" resorts who will find that they have to use perhaps multiple weeks to trade into a premium property. And, of course, multiple weeks means multiple MF's.
> 
> *It will also be a problem with even premium week owners who don't have enough points to trade into what was considered an equal property* (if you look at the Asia Pacific program, one Hawaii week can't even trade for another, like for like). As new properties get built or, like the case of Marco Island, need to be sold, Marriott can simply pile on the points to enhance sales; the flip side to that is owners of premium weeks elsewhere won't have enough points to trade into them like for like (size/number of days).
> 
> Putting aside the resale/direct issue (although I still feel Marriott should treat all current owners with the same equality as they bought into the system with), I think there are a lot of obstacles to overcome here. It is going to be difficult for Marriott to assign point values that are felt equitable across the board. Are values assigned according to resort demand, selling price (keeping in mind that the time factor may effect a disparity between at least perceived equal valuations of properties and prices), rental prices at Marriott.com or by some other barometer? I would think that setting point valuations based on retail rental prices would be a way of equalizing some of the discrepancies based on construction costs due to the time factor, but of course that would adjust everything to 2010 prices. The issue of point value inflation simply as a sales tool, so that newer weeks cost more to trade into, will increasingly make newer resorts out of the reach of older owners (at least wrt like for like trades). If point allocation was tied to some more independent variable (like relative rental prices, since that reflects supply and demand and, to a certain extent, fair market value), at least it wouldn't just be some arbitrary number which might be used as a sales tool when needed.
> 
> For me, at least, maintaining home resort priority and having the point system apply only for exchanges would be a critical point. I would not join under the rules of the Asia Pacific program.
> 
> And, if not for the Asia Pacific program, I might be more optimistic like you that an organization like Marriott would be likely to get it right. I am not so sure after seeing that. I can see issues with use and I can foresee issues with MF's. I also think it speaks volumes that Fletch and 4 other top salespeople have abandoned ship, so to speak. I can only hope that some of the powers that be have begun to reconsider (and perhaps that was what my source was referencing) and, if they do in fact introduce a new program, that they take the time to consider all the ramifications and make it as equitable as possible.



The Achilles' heel of a Point based system - dirty laundry.

The downside to adding a Point Based Exchange System will be the ability for Marriott owners to measure their week against other Marriott weeks.

Can you imagine the confusion to find a Gold week at a tropical island worth more Points than a Platinum week at your resort?  OMG!  And yours cost more to buy from Marriott?

But the salesreps will be well rehearsed with scripts to overcome any objection you can imagine.  The solution will always be to buy more Marriott weeks; who knew?


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... I also think it speaks volumes that Fletch and 4 other top salespeople have abandoned ship, so to speak. ...



I know Fletch has said that he isn't 100% optimistic about some of the features that might be integrated into a new points exchange system, but I'm not certain that it is the only reason for his "jumping ship."  For one thing, he said that he didn't like the direction management was taking but didn't specify it was only in regard to this system - didn't he mention Marco Island's pricing structure as an impediment to sales, as well as the relatively recent ROFR stoppage and the development stoppage/suspension that was announced last fall?  It stands to reason that it must be very difficult to be a salesperson for Marriott developer inventory in this terrible economy, if you can't honestly tell your prospects that there are newer, bigger, better resorts coming online every day.  If you're a good salesperson, which apparently Fletch is, you're going to go where the money is.

Now look where he's going - Fletch is moving on to DVC.  It's not like he gave up on Marriott and left for an equal competitor - in this market, DVC is the strongest timeshare out there.  It has the benefit of Disney's protection, evidenced by ROFR still being exercised to protect the Disney hotel pricing that competes with DVC, and it also will be opening within months a super-duper spiffy new Hawaii property that will need expert salespersons to sell it to a non-Disney-theme-park clientele.  As well, it will be in direct competition with a Marriott property already established at that location.  Disney would be crazy to not recruit Marriott's best salespeople right now, and Fletch (and the other top competing salespeople) would be crazy to not go to work for Disney right now.  His new job seems to be a match made in heaven. 



m61376 said:


> ... I can only hope that some of the powers that be have begun to reconsider (and perhaps that was what my source was referencing) and, if they do in fact introduce a new program, that they take the time to consider all the ramifications and make it as equitable as possible.



Reconsider what?  I don't think there's any need to reconsider if a system hasn't been rolled out yet.  But besides that, I think it's impossible to roll out any system which is completely equitable.  No matter what Marriott does - remain as is, announce any of the systems that we've discussed in this thread, or roll out a completely different animal unlike any we've thought of - some owners will be unhappy.  You simply can't please everyone, and if they are getting feedback as Fletch says they are that the majority of current owners are unhappy with II, then I hope they do roll something new out.  It doesn't make any business sense for them to stay static knowing the majority of their customers are unhappy with a certain aspect of ownership that can be changed.


----------



## scrapngen

PerryM said:


> The Achilles' heel of a Point based system - dirty laundry.
> 
> The downside to adding a Point Based Exchange System will be the ability for Marriott owners to measure their week against other Marriott weeks.
> 
> Can you imagine the confusion to find a Gold week at a tropical island worth more Points than a Platinum week at your resort?  OMG!  And yours cost more to buy from Marriott?
> 
> But the salesreps will be well rehearsed with scripts to overcome any objection you can imagine.  The solution will always be to buy more Marriott weeks; who knew?



Can't see that as any different than now when people see different MFs at different resorts that don't seem to "match" the color of their weeks


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> Doug- Once again I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you posted. IF Marriott develops the right system, it can be a more equitable system, but it is one thing when a system starts from scratch and everyone knows the rules going in and it is a far different thing when it is superimposed on people accustomed to the way things were. I think the big problem is going to be with lower season owners and/or even Plat. owners at "lesser" resorts who will find that they have to use perhaps multiple weeks to trade into a premium property. And, of course, multiple weeks means multiple MF's.
> 
> It will also be a problem with even premium week owners who don't have enough points to trade into what was considered an equal property (if you look at the Asia Pacific program, one Hawaii week can't even trade for another, like for like). As new properties get built or, like the case of Marco Island, need to be sold, Marriott can simply pile on the points to enhance sales; the flip side to that is owners of premium weeks elsewhere won't have enough points to trade into them like for like (size/number of days).
> 
> Putting aside the resale/direct issue (although I still feel Marriott should treat all current owners with the same equality as they bought into the system with), I think there are a lot of obstacles to overcome here. It is going to be difficult for Marriott to assign point values that are felt equitable across the board. Are values assigned according to resort demand, selling price (keeping in mind that the time factor may effect a disparity between at least perceived equal valuations of properties and prices), rental prices at Marriott.com or by some other barometer? I would think that setting point valuations based on retail rental prices would be a way of equalizing some of the discrepancies based on construction costs due to the time factor, but of course that would adjust everything to 2010 prices. The issue of point value inflation simply as a sales tool, so that newer weeks cost more to trade into, will increasingly make newer resorts out of the reach of older owners (at least wrt like for like trades). If point allocation was tied to some more independent variable (like relative rental prices, since that reflects supply and demand and, to a certain extent, fair market value), at least it wouldn't just be some arbitrary number which might be used as a sales tool when needed.
> 
> For me, at least, maintaining home resort priority and having the point system apply only for exchanges would be a critical point. I would not join under the rules of the Asia Pacific program.
> 
> And, if not for the Asia Pacific program, I might be more optimistic like you that an organization like Marriott would be likely to get it right. I am not so sure after seeing that. I can see issues with use and I can foresee issues with MF's. I also think it speaks volumes that Fletch and 4 other top salespeople have abandoned ship, so to speak. I can only hope that some of the powers that be have begun to reconsider (and perhaps that was what my source was referencing) and, if they do in fact introduce a new program, that they take the time to consider all the ramifications and make it as equitable as possible.




Keep in mind that the only lower season owners who will feel burned are those that bought strictly to work the exchange system. I own a three bedroom lower season silver week. We bought it to use. We enjoyed being in S. Florida in Nov/Dec and that's the season the fit our needs. Thus, I'm not sweating any changes they make. 

Now I have been working the system with my studio unit to trade up in size but, again, any new system they come out with isn't likely to change that. What it might change is that I'll be trading that week outside the Marriott system. No big deal. There are plenty of quality units outside the Marriott system. It will cost me the difference between a Marriott to Marriott trade and a Marriott to non-Marriott exchange fee but heck, that discount is down to $30 now anyway. It's not big loss IMHO. 

Like you, the AP program disturbs me. At least what I've read about it on this site disturbs me. But there is a way around those inequitable points totals with most points based systems. One can deposit the points required for exchange with Interal, then request the exchange into the desired resorts. 

Depositing points for outside exchanges that are really exchanges back into the system aren't anything new. I can manipulate the system with both HGVC and DRI. For instance, with DRI, it's 12,500 pionts for a two bedroom internal exchange into Polo Towers. I can take 7,500 points, deposit them with Interval and get the same 2 bedroom exchange. 

Keeping that last paragraph in mind, I'm awarded 12,500 points for my 2 bedroom PT's unit but, I deposit 7,500 points into Interval and then trade back in. I've saved myself 5,000 points for another exchange yet still get to use my full 2 bedroom unit at my home resort. Can you think of any weeks based system where you get to use your week AND get another exchange out of it? 

All this the sky is falling stuff is pure bunk until we actually get to see the system. People are panicing when panic isn't warrented. After all, nothing has actually happened yet. All we know is that Marriott sales reps and a couple of other TUG members have heard from higher ups that something will happen. Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell. Personally, since I've learned how to work two points based systems I welcome another one to learn how to manipulate. I recieve GREATER value out of the two points systems I'm in than any weeks based exchange system I own. That includes the two Marriott weeks I own. 

DRI's system was of enough value to me I paid $2,995 to join it. What's different about DRI's offer was that those units had become strictly exchange units and the Marriott units we own we bought to use. I doubt that any system Marriott came out with would be worth that much to me but, I can't really say that until I actually lay eyes on what they're offering. 

Now I will say that resale buyers have a right to be nervous. Developers have shown a habit of making changes which are not favorable to resale owners. Some eliminate resale buyers from "elite" status, others don't allow full participation in any internal exchange program and some don't allow any participation in internal exhange programs at all unless you buy a developer week. So owners like Perry have a right to be worried. 

OTOH, if you buy resale to actually use that partiuclar deeded week or, if you bought it to exchange through I.I., there's not as much to worry about. You still have a deeded week and you still have the rights that go along with that deeded week. Internal Marriott to Marriott exchanges might dry up but, those resorts will still retain their value in the I.I. exchange system. In fact, they might even become more valuable to Interval as the internal exchange system begins to affect the amount of Marriott weeks showing up through Interval.

I doubt this will ever be as bad as Perry wants us to believe. It might not be as good as I'd like to believe. Still, I'm bettnig it's closer to what I'm predicting that the armagedon Perry believes is around the corner.


----------



## PerryM

scrapngen said:


> Can't see that as any different than now when people see different MFs at different resorts that don't seem to "match" the color of their weeks



MFs are not published to my knowledge anywhere but chat rooms - I guess you could ask Marriott what the MFs are at various resorts but they have nothing to do with seasons - they are all the same at the same resort - season means nothing.

Since Marriott seems to be betting their future with an unproven exchange system I have an idea for them - stop selling timeshares - that's right stop selling them.

Instead do what the #1 timeshare does, Disney, and sell RTU instead.

However, at the end of 40 - ?? Years the resort reverts back to whole ownership and the resort is then sold and the proceeds split among the remaining owners.

The problem with timeshares is timeshares.  What's 52 1/52 deeds worth?  Nothing that's what at the end of the timeshare life cycle.  This way the timeshare eventually becomes whole again and just sold and the proceeds are given back to the owners at the end.

Hawaii might be a state that will not allow this but sounds like the rest of the states would not mind.

Anyway Marriott while your betting the farm on this sales gimmick you might reconsider new projects with this new angle - the owners are the owners.

Well folks its been fun for the past 2 weeks debating back at TUG but our Maui vacation is over and its time to make money again.  PM me if something earth shattering happens but I'm back at work as of now.

Bye........


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> MFs are not published to my knowledge anywhere but chat rooms - I guess you could ask Marriott what the MFs are at various resorts but they have nothing to do with seasons - they are all the same at the same resort - season means nothing.
> 
> Since Marriott seems to be betting their future with an unproven exchange system I have an idea for them - stop selling timeshares - that's right stop selling them.
> 
> Instead do what the #1 timeshare does, Disney, and sell RTU instead.
> 
> However, at the end of 40 - ?? Years the resort reverts back to whole ownership and the resort is then sold and the proceeds split among the remaining owners.
> 
> The problem with timeshares is timeshares.  What's 52 1/52 deeds worth?  Nothing that's what at the end of the timeshare life cycle.  This way the timeshare eventually becomes whole again and just sold and the proceeds are given back to the owners at the end.
> 
> Hawaii might be a state that will not allow this but sounds like the rest of the states would not mind.
> 
> Anyway Marriott while your betting the farm on this sales gimmick you might reconsider new projects with this new angle - the owners are the owners.
> 
> Well folks its been fun for the past 2 weeks debating back at TUG but our Maui vacation is over and its time to make money again.  PM me if something earth shattering happens but I'm back at work as of now.
> 
> Bye........




I believe all the MF's are available for viewing at Marriott Vacation Clubs website. I know I've looked several of them up there. 

Some MF's do vary by resort but, that's only because they divide the property taxes up differently between the seasons. At Ocean Pointe, Platinum season owners pay more of the MF's than do Gold or Silver season owners.  

I wouldn't say points based systems are unproven. I bet I could name half a dozen resorts with some form of points based internal exchange systems. Let's see, DRI, Bluegreen, Hilton, DVC, Starwood, Wyndham, Festiva........I could probably go on but, since Marriott has nothing to go on, I'm sure their system will be one of the unproven varitey. 

Marriott is already one of the last (maybe is the last) major timeshare chain to consider converting to an internal points based system. Points based reservations system have proven to not only be successful but, they've proven to be popular with the majority of timeshare owners.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> Reconsider what?  I don't think there's any need to reconsider if a system hasn't been rolled out yet.  But besides that, I think it's impossible to roll out any system which is completely equitable.  No matter what Marriott does - remain as is, announce any of the systems that we've discussed in this thread, or roll out a completely different animal unlike any we've thought of - some owners will be unhappy.  You simply can't please everyone, and if they are getting feedback as Fletch says they are that the majority of current owners are unhappy with II, then I hope they do roll something new out.  It doesn't make any business sense for them to stay static knowing the majority of their customers are unhappy with a certain aspect of ownership that can be changed.



I never meant to imply, btw, that Fletch left because of what he heard about this new program- just that it appears that perhaps he and some of his co-workers did not like the directions that Marriott was going; it was my impression that this may have factored into his decision from something he had posted, unless I misinterpreted his comment.

Nevertheless, I think you missed the point I was making. Since what I was told was quite a bit different than Fletch's information, it may indicate that Marriott is reconsidering the program that they were anticipating rolling out. Since they developed the Asia Pacific points program, it is quite possible and even likely that that was a precursor to their overall points program. I don't know what success it has been met with, but I am guessing that perhaps its reception wasn't what Marriott expected, given the global economic downturn. So, Marriott MAY be reconsidering whether or not to institute a points based program at all (which jives with what I was told) and/or may be reconsidering the details of any future program.

And, I agree- it will be impossible to develop a program that everyone feels is equitable. Hey, the program we currently enjoy isn't equitable to everyone, but it is the program people bought into. So losers in the new program who may have done much better with the old program will be particularly affected. As Doug pointed out, only lower season owners who bought strictly to trade or primarily to trade will potentially be hurt; if you bought to use, regardless of season, you'll always have something nice to fall back on. But the real problem here is Marriott sold many of these units by dangling the ability to trade into other properties at perhaps more convenient vacation times. Of course, this was never written down, but the sales were made based on this understanding. To a large extent many of these customers have managed to get where they wanted to go making perhaps inequitable trades, but they have been relatively happy owners and they have continued to pay their MF's. My concern- and if you look at Starwood's problems I don't think it is a doomsday type forecast, but a realistic concern- is what happens when those lower season owners can no longer get what they consider equitable trades? What happens if even "lesser" Platinum week owners can no longer get trades to Hawaii, ski weeks, the Caribbean, etc.? Will there be widespread defaults? 

The flip side is what DanCali has been pointing out- exchange is an equal sum system. IF lower season owners simply don't join the new system and continue using II, then there won't be the extra time that higher season owners could potentially reserve (for a higher season owner to potentially get 2 weeks, for example, it means that 2 single week owners also have to participate). So a top heavy system may make for great internal exchanges among the premium units (that is, until the next premium or next more premium unit that Marirott creates as a sales tool, comes along).

Despite all the doom and gloom here (and, admittedly, I've contributed ) I think this is a good discussion. People like Doug and others have pointed out many of the benefits that a point system can potentially infer. Others have pointed out many of the pitfalls. If I was a betting person (which, actually, I am not), I'd lay odds that somewhere in Marriottville might be perusing this thread and others like it. Although I'm not the same conspiracy theorist as Perry is, I tend to believe that these rumors were released for a reason- to get people used to the idea and likely to get feedback, so they can reconsider program parameters as needed before releasing, so hopefully they will release (IF they decide to ultimately release one) a program with the fewest glitches. I'm guessing they recognize that the Asia Pacific program wasn't what they thought it would be (and I understand that the Ritz points program was a big problem, from what I've heard) and that's why I think they've been treading slowly. I don't think they've been just dangling this idea out for 4 years or so just to annoy people; I think they've wanted to create a program but just recognize that it's very hard to superimpose a program over something that is very functional and that people bought into. It is one thing to buy into something with your eyes open; it is far different to have something changed after you've made a purchase based on a set of rules that you thought would be long lasting. No one likes something forced down their throats, and Marriott has to make darn sure that not too many customers choke on it.

Some of the posters here are right- this could be a fabulous system- since people are pontificating:
- create a system where all owners, regardless of how they purchased, are treated equally for reservations at their home resort and exchanges.
-resale owners currently can't exchange for Marriott Reward points. Create a more equitable exchange for timeshare to reward points (perhaps akin to the incentive offered in the Asia Pacific program to program adopters for the first number of years, but make it long term). Continue only allowing retail buyers to enjoy that perk- that was a perk that always created the difference, so it would be fair to all. Make it the perk it once was- good for sales, good for buyer satisfaction.
-continue with home resort preference.
-tie the point allotment to some entity which conveys relative trade value. Marriott already has this figured out- they change different rates to rent their units depending on location, size, view, time of year, etc. Take the average rack rental rates for each season and use that to formulate the basis of point allotment. As a new resort is released- allocate points based on the relative rental rates of those weeks to the rental rates of others during that time frame (in five years from not rental rates at all resorts will presumably be higher; any new allocation should be based on where the new resort falls on the scale relative to other older resorts). Thus, newer properties only get their fair share of points- they'd truly have to be "better" to receive a lion's share, and not just as a sales tool (like Fletch implied that they were apt to do with Marco). So older premium resorts retain their trade value over time.
-since home resort advantage is retained, MF's remain resort dependent as they are now, and not point dependent as in the Asia Pacific program


----------



## timeos2

*Disbanding is hard to do. But RTU gets the buyer zero at the end*



PerryM said:


> Instead do what the #1 timeshare does, Disney, and sell RTU instead.
> 
> However, at the end of 40 - ?? Years the resort reverts back to whole ownership and the resort is then sold and the proceeds split among the remaining owners..



Actually in a RTU, and specifically at Disney, the only owner will be Disney as no part of the property is deeded to anyone else. So those who have paid BIG annual fees right to that last use year will get exactly zero of whatever the property is worth.  And most likely it will be in the millions either as a perfectly maintained condo property (why wouldn't they have it in tip top shape - the RTU long term renters are paying for it!) or simply for the value of the land and development rights. But the DVC users get zero. 

The better model for buyers would be a deeded unit with a specific end date at which time the complex would be sold as a whole (the only way to get top dollar) and that amount split between the deeded owners. Now that is a model with value all around. Very few timeshares are set up like that. The majority are going to remain fragmented into 50 + segments with high hurdles, many almost impossible to meet, that require agreement of virtually all owners to dissolve the Association/project. If they fall into serious disrepair or suffer high delinquencies it can be a painfully long process to get it all straightened out.  And it may start happening to more and more of the older, smaller resorts as they reach 20-30 years old and owners have moved on, died or tired of the resort.  Especially those so-so hotel/motel conversions that were borderline from the start.  It can be a real mess.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> I never meant to imply, btw, that Fletch left because of what he heard about this new program- just that it appears that perhaps he and some of his co-workers did not like the directions that Marriott was going; it was my impression that this may have factored into his decision from something he had posted, unless I misinterpreted his comment.
> 
> Nevertheless, I think you missed the point I was making. Since what I was told was quite a bit different than Fletch's information, it may indicate that Marriott is reconsidering the program that they were anticipating rolling out. Since they developed the Asia Pacific points program, it is quite possible and even likely that that was a precursor to their overall points program. I don't know what success it has been met with, but I am guessing that perhaps its reception wasn't what Marriott expected, given the global economic downturn. So, Marriott MAY be reconsidering whether or not to institute a points based program at all (which jives with what I was told) and/or may be reconsidering the details of any future program.
> 
> And, I agree- it will be impossible to develop a program that everyone feels is equitable. Hey, the program we currently enjoy isn't equitable to everyone, but it is the program people bought into. So losers in the new program who may have done much better with the old program will be particularly affected. As Doug pointed out, only lower season owners who bought strictly to trade or primarily to trade will potentially be hurt; if you bought to use, regardless of season, you'll always have something nice to fall back on. But the real problem here is Marriott sold many of these units by dangling the ability to trade into other properties at perhaps more convenient vacation times. Of course, this was never written down, but the sales were made based on this understanding. To a large extent many of these customers have managed to get where they wanted to go making perhaps inequitable trades, but they have been relatively happy owners and they have continued to pay their MF's. My concern- and if you look at Starwood's problems I don't think it is a doomsday type forecast, but a realistic concern- is what happens when those lower season owners can no longer get what they consider equitable trades? What happens if even "lesser" Platinum week owners can no longer get trades to Hawaii, ski weeks, the Caribbean, etc.? Will there be widespread defaults?
> 
> The flip side is what DanCali has been pointing out- exchange is an equal sum system. IF lower season owners simply don't join the new system and continue using II, then there won't be the extra time that higher season owners could potentially reserve (for a higher season owner to potentially get 2 weeks, for example, it means that 2 single week owners also have to participate). So a top heavy system may make for great internal exchanges among the premium units (that is, until the next premium or next more premium unit that Marirott creates as a sales tool, comes along).
> 
> Despite all the doom and gloom here (and, admittedly, I've contributed ) I think this is a good discussion. People like Doug and others have pointed out many of the benefits that a point system can potentially infer. Others have pointed out many of the pitfalls. If I was a betting person (which, actually, I am not), I'd lay odds that somewhere in Marriottville might be perusing this thread and others like it. Although I'm not the same conspiracy theorist as Perry is, I tend to believe that these rumors were released for a reason- to get people used to the idea and likely to get feedback, so they can reconsider program parameters as needed before releasing, so hopefully they will release (IF they decide to ultimately release one) a program with the fewest glitches. I'm guessing they recognize that the Asia Pacific program wasn't what they thought it would be (and I understand that the Ritz points program was a big problem, from what I've heard) and that's why I think they've been treading slowly. I don't think they've been just dangling this idea out for 4 years or so just to annoy people; I think they've wanted to create a program but just recognize that it's very hard to superimpose a program over something that is very functional and that people bought into. It is one thing to buy into something with your eyes open; it is far different to have something changed after you've made a purchase based on a set of rules that you thought would be long lasting. No one likes something forced down their throats, and Marriott has to make darn sure that not too many customers choke on it.
> 
> Some of the posters here are right- this could be a fabulous system- since people are pontificating:
> - create a system where all owners, regardless of how they purchased, are treated equally for reservations at their home resort and exchanges.
> -resale owners currently can't exchange for Marriott Reward points. Create a more equitable exchange for timeshare to reward points (perhaps akin to the incentive offered in the Asia Pacific program to program adopters for the first number of years, but make it long term). Continue only allowing retail buyers to enjoy that perk- that was a perk that always created the difference, so it would be fair to all. Make it the perk it once was- good for sales, good for buyer satisfaction.
> -continue with home resort preference.
> -tie the point allotment to some entity which conveys relative trade value. Marriott already has this figured out- they change different rates to rent their units depending on location, size, view, time of year, etc. Take the average rack rental rates for each season and use that to formulate the basis of point allotment. As a new resort is released- allocate points based on the relative rental rates of those weeks to the rental rates of others during that time frame (in five years from not rental rates at all resorts will presumably be higher; any new allocation should be based on where the new resort falls on the scale relative to other older resorts). Thus, newer properties only get their fair share of points- they'd truly have to be "better" to receive a lion's share, and not just as a sales tool (like Fletch implied that they were apt to do with Marco). So older premium resorts retain their trade value over time.
> -since home resort advantage is retained, MF's remain resort dependent as they are now, and not point dependent as in the Asia Pacific program



Just a thought here but, if Marriott puts all it's existing inventory into any new internal exchange system they come out with, it will kick start the system in a significant way. My guess is there will be a good number of lower season weeks that Marriott can supply to their new system, giving higher season owners the opportunity to trade down to stretch their usage while also giving those that own lower seasons the ability to obtain equitable exchanges.

FWIW, those that own lower season usually have to work at it to trade up. We've made serveral good trades with our silver season studio week but, it's never been into really high time areas and, it's been into over developed areas. There will be some give and take. That studio unit might not have enough points to get something larger, even in shoulder or off season. But, it could be added to our one bedroom Platinum lock-off and make that unit exchange even better. 

We are in the position where we own enough timeshare weeks that being able to combine and exchange up using two units benefits us more than a mediocre exchange with the studio unit and a decent exchange with the one bedroom unit.


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## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> Just a thought here but, if Marriott puts all it's existing inventory into any new internal exchange system they come out with, it will kick start the system in a significant way. My guess is there will be a good number of lower season weeks that Marriott can supply to their new system, giving higher season owners the opportunity to trade down to stretch their usage while also giving those that own lower seasons the ability to obtain equitable exchanges.
> 
> FWIW, those that own lower season usually have to work at it to trade up. We've made serveral good trades with our silver season studio week but, it's never been into really high time areas and, it's been into over developed areas. There will be some give and take. That studio unit might not have enough points to get something larger, even in shoulder or off season. But, it could be added to our one bedroom Platinum lock-off and make that unit exchange even better.
> 
> We are in the position where we own enough timeshare weeks that being able to combine and exchange up using two units benefits us more than a mediocre exchange with the studio unit and a decent exchange with the one bedroom unit.


I would assume that Marriott would likely only dump the less popular weeks into the new system that it owned, if any at all. Those units that it hasn't sold, or those units that usage reverted back to Marriott for the year, are generally offered as rentals. If the property has a high rental rate I doubt Marriott would be so benevolent as to add it to the pool- but you might be right that they might add the units that they are less likely to fully rent anyway. It's a good point and it could help jump start the system.

As you pointed out, there can be some good ways to benefit from a points system even from lesser week owners. One of the real issues I foresee, though, is not discontent from owners or 3 BR's such as yourself combining the smaller portions perhaps, but from lesser week owners who need to combine 2 whole owned week to get a week at a better location. All of a sudden their cost per night has just doubled, because they are paying double the MF's. An argument can be made for assigning MF's according to point values as in the Asia Pacific program, but I think that's a logistical nightmare to superimpose upon a week based system with independent HOA's setting MF's.


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## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ...  As you pointed out, there can be some good ways to benefit from a points system even from lesser week owners. One of the real issues I foresee, though, is not discontent from owners or 3 BR's such as yourself combining the smaller portions perhaps, but from lesser week owners who need to combine 2 whole owned week to get a week at a better location. All of a sudden their cost per night has just doubled, because they are paying double the MF's. An argument can be made for assigning MF's according to point values as in the Asia Pacific program, but I think that's a logistical nightmare to superimpose upon a week based system with independent HOA's setting MF's.



DVC's system has m/f tied to points owned, but each resort has its own point values.  IOW, it "costs" more points to stay at the newer resorts or during high seasons or in the larger units, etc...  (Plus, their points are extremely devalued when they exchange out into Disney hotels, Disney Cruise Line, or other timeshares.)  Those owners have no problems understanding and working with a system wherein the amount of points they have in their home resort may not get them a "like for like" exchange.

Marriott owners already know when they're trading up, don't they?  Isn't it understood that certain resorts may not have the exchange power to pull certain other resorts, and that trading up can only happen in certain circumstances such as low seasons or flexchange?  Why would it be any more difficult for owners to acknowledge similar exchange limitations in a new points exchange system?  Especially if point reductions are integrated for low season and flexchange-like availability?  That would be no different than the exchange limitations already in place in II's system!

I keep seeing "like for like" here but it's not stated anywhere that an owner is guaranteed that from either Marriott or II.  If it happens to be the way that any owners' exchanges have worked out thus far, well, that's just luck.  Most TUGgers who manage to trade up recognize that as a bonus, as is seen in all the posts where somebody is excited about a great trade and several folks congratulate the OP.  As well, most TUGgers recognize that trading down is a necessity at times, as is seen in all the posts questioning whether a certain resort has the trade power to pull another, or for example, in the posts where folks say they're giving up a bedroom to get to that great Hawaii resort.

So, m, if "like for like" isn't guaranteed from either Marriott or II, and most TUGgers recognize that "like for like" doesn't happen more often than not, then why do you think that Marriott should be responsible for making sure that it will happen in a new points exchange system?  I don't think that Marriott is under any obligation to roll out a program that is more equitable than what's available now with II, certainly.

But of course if by "like for like" what you really mean is "week-for-week," that's a different story.  But I still don't see that Marriott is obligated to a "week-for-week" exchange system because, again, there is no stated requirement for that.  If a new points exchange system offers more exchange value to all of the owners who have consistently been trading down, while at the same time it's a selling feature for newer resorts where point values will of course be higher, it's a no-brainer.

As far as owners of the older resorts/low seasons not liking that their exchange value may not be high enough to pull what they've been able to pull thus far, and the possibility that they'll default because of it?  If otherwise responsible owners who are not debilitated by this poor economy choose to use a new exchange system as a reason to default, I'd say they're just looking for an excuse and they'd probably find another one just as flimsy if this new system isn't rolled out.  No particular exchange guarantees have ever been stated by Marriott or II, and informed owners know that.


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## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> I would assume that Marriott would likely only dump the less popular weeks into the new system that it owned, if any at all. Those units that it hasn't sold, or those units that usage reverted back to Marriott for the year, are generally offered as rentals. If the property has a high rental rate I doubt Marriott would be so benevolent as to add it to the pool- but you might be right that they might add the units that they are less likely to fully rent anyway. It's a good point and it could help jump start the system.
> 
> As you pointed out, there can be some good ways to benefit from a points system even from lesser week owners. One of the real issues I foresee, though, is not discontent from owners or 3 BR's such as yourself combining the smaller portions perhaps, but from lesser week owners who need to combine 2 whole owned week to get a week at a better location. All of a sudden their cost per night has just doubled, because they are paying double the MF's. An argument can be made for assigning MF's according to point values as in the Asia Pacific program, but I think that's a logistical nightmare to superimpose upon a week based system with independent HOA's setting MF's.



Once again we're both at the point of speculation. Marriott might.......or might not......kick start the program. In the short run it's probably more profitable to attempt to rent those unit. In the long run, if they want people to sing the praises of how great their new system is they'll put a good majority of those units into the exchange pool boosting availability. It sort of depends on your view of Marriott as a friend or the evil empire.

Maybe the down economy is the perfect time to start a program like this. With the economy down and hotel rentals being off, putting inventory into such a program for a couple of years might not hurt as much.


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## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> So, m, if "like for like" isn't guaranteed from either Marriott or II, and most TUGgers recognize that "like for like" doesn't happen more often than not, then why do you think that Marriott should be responsible for making sure that it will happen in a new points exchange system?  I don't think that Marriott is under any obligation to roll out a program that is more equitable than what's available now with II, certainly.
> 
> But of course if by "like for like" what you really mean is "week-for-week," that's a different story.  But I still don't see that Marriott is obligated to a "week-for-week" exchange system because, again, there is no stated requirement for that.  If a new points exchange system offers more exchange value to all of the owners who have consistently been trading down, while at the same time it's a selling feature for newer resorts where point values will of course be higher, it's a no-brainer.
> 
> As far as owners of the older resorts/low seasons not liking that their exchange value may not be high enough to pull what they've been able to pull thus far, and the possibility that they'll default because of it?  If otherwise responsible owners who are not debilitated by this poor economy choose to use a new exchange system as a reason to default, I'd say they're just looking for an excuse and they'd probably find another one just as flimsy if this new system isn't rolled out.  No particular exchange guarantees have ever been stated by Marriott or II, and informed owners know that.


I never said that there was a stated requirement for any type of exchange. My point is that heretofore owners are accustomed to trading like for like- meaning the same size and the same number of days. True, because of resort quality or season (demand factors), they may have had to compromise on size. Of course, Marriott is under no legal obligation to continue this. 

However, people bought into a program with a certain expectation and have been enjoying certain privileges. Like it or not, many salespeople strongly inferred that people could buy a lesser season perhaps for less money and trade for where they really wanted; while I would never recommend this as a course, there have been many owners that bought under those assumptions and have made their ownership work for them. While it is true that Marirott has no obligation to allow such transactions to continue, nor to fashion a program with similar accommodations, there is a risk when a new system with a new set of rules is either superimposed on or replaces what was. It is one thing when people make an informed decision to make a purchase and quite another when the rules are changed midstream.

I am not saying that it can't be done- just pointing out some of the risks in doing so. You mention DVC. People bought into a points system and points were allocated at the time of purchase according to unit size/season/resort, etc.. People pay MF's according to the points owned. Given Marriott's current system, I don't see how they could refashion the MF system such that owners would pay a MF per point (since that would create a whole other problem). I think that's where the big issue lies. Owners of lesser season weeks are going to be very unhappy if they can only get a few days at a more desirable resort, yet are paying those high MF's. As MF's rise the issue becomes worse. Look at what is happening with Starwood resorts- as more owners find they aren't getting enough value out of their ownership to pay the MF's, the default rate increases and that, in turn, leads to increased MF's to cover the deficits. So, while Marriott doesn't have to create a system where all owners are content, if the new system (IF there is a new system) leads to a lot of discontented owners, it could be a big issue for everyone.

And, yes, while  realize that the natural tendency is for new resorts to have higher point values, admittedly that concerns me, because it is an area ripe for abuse. Look at the outcry over reward point devaluation, which was just a perk of ownership. Imagine in five years that same type of devaluation with timeshare points, which would be intrinsic to ownership. Will you really be ok with only getting 4 or 5 days in the future at a comparably located and basically comparable property, just because it's newer (or because Marriott needs to allocate more points to enhance sales), when you're paying $1000-1500+ annually in MF's?


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## hipslo

*Can't decide whether I should care about any of this?*

I have been diligently trying to keep up with this thread, but I have to admit, its beginning to make my head spin.  So, I'm trying to figure out whether or not I even have a dog in this fight.  Maybe someone could enlighten me.  Here's my situation:

I currently own four platinum units at Mountainside in Park City, all purchased resale.  Every year since I have owned these units, which is now four or five years, using the 13 month reservations window, I have successfully reserved the four consecutive weeks after president's week.  Also every year, I have rented out three of these four weeks, sometimes back to Marriott, sometimes to friends/ co-workers, and sometimes via one of the online listing sites.  I've never had any trouble renting for what I consider to be reasonable amounts (though what I consider reasonable is typically less than what a lot of folks list these weeks for).  My family and I have used the fourth week to take a ski trip each year when the kids (ages 7, 10 and 13) are out of school for spring break.

I would like to continue this usage pattern for the forseeable future.  I have no interest in exchanging.  Eventually, when the kids are grown and out of the house, and I am able to retire (or semi-retire), my wife and I would like to spend those four consecutive weeks in Park City skiing each winter. Kind of like having a ski condo in Park City, except that I am not paying for anything more than I actually anticipate using.

So, how closely do I need to be following any of this?  I have followed what I understand to be the cardinal TUG rule - I have purchased where I desire to use.  My multiple week ownership has allowed me to reserve the weeks I actually wish to use, as well (there are plenty of "dog" weeks in the platinum season at Mountainside).  I have no interest in exchanging, and do not anticipate that I will ever be interested in exchanging.

Thoughts?


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## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... And, yes, while  realize that the natural tendency is for new resorts to have higher point values, admittedly that concerns me, because it is an area ripe for abuse. Look at the outcry over reward point devaluation, which was just a perk of ownership. Imagine in five years that same type of devaluation with timeshare points, which would be intrinsic to ownership. Will you really be ok with only getting 4 or 5 days in the future at a comparably located and basically comparable property, just because it's newer (or because Marriott needs to allocate more points to enhance sales), when you're paying $1000-1500+ annually in MF's?



Why wouldn't I be okay with it?  It's similar to the system that I have bought into in which older resorts lose their trade power as newer ones open, and in which exchange use may not be equal to home resort use.  When we bought we were told to expect less value in trades, that exchanging would be most successful if we accepted a 2BR in exchange for our 3BR, so why should similar future devaluations surprise me?  Exchanging isn't our first priority, though.  For some owners it is, but IMO that's even more reason for those folks to completely understand the limitations that could be placed on their ownership. 

Speaking of MRP devaluation, didn't you argue that it was something that should have been expected based on hotel trends, and that a devaluation was something direct buyers would just have to accept because they had no guarantee of future value?  You did, and you were entirely correct!  But the same is true with exchanging - Marriott is under no obligation to continue the exchange system as it exists now, and owners will just have to accept whatever changes are made.  (For the record, some of us didn't join in the outcry or rail against Marriott for that MRP devaluation because we knew it could happen, although we have used it as proof of Marriott devaluing an ownership.  But it's curious that when it's been pointed out as proof, you've chosen to not see it that way.  Have you changed your mind?   ) 

Plus I just don't understand why you keep bringing M/F's into this - they're set according to costs for running a resort based on things like physical location, local energy surcharges, county taxes, etc.  It takes more than high M/F for a resort to be considered a premium exchange property.  That's why I asked before if folks look at M/F as an indicator of exchange success now.  If they don't, which I don't think they do, then why would they in any new exchange system?


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## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> ...  So, how closely do I need to be following any of this?  I have followed what I understand to be the cardinal TUG rule - I have purchased where I desire to use.  My multiple week ownership has allowed me to reserve the weeks I actually wish to use, as well (there are plenty of "dog" weeks in the platinum season at Mountainside).  I have no interest in exchanging, and do not anticipate that I will ever be interested in exchanging.
> 
> Thoughts?



I don't think it's necessary to follow ANY thread about this rumored new exchange system!  For some of us it's a way to think out loud, for others it's a way to prepare for the worst (or the best,) for some it's simply the thread that they opened when their fingers wanted to start typing ...

There isn't anything to be learned here about how any of our ownerships will be impacted because Marriott hasn't released any details.  Until and unless they do, your guesses about all this claptrap are as good as anybody else's.   

But if an announcement is made that a new system is being rolled out, whenever it's made, the threads on TUG will be worth their weight in gold.  That's when we all should sit up and ask questions, brainstorm and try to figure out what's what.  The more voices in the discussion then, the better off we'll all be.


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## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> I don't think it's necessary to follow ANY thread about this rumored new exchange system!  For some of us it's a way to think out loud, for others it's a way to prepare for the worst (or the best,) for some it's simply the thread that they opened when their fingers wanted to start typing ...
> 
> There isn't anything to be learned here about how any of our ownerships will be impacted because Marriott hasn't released any details.  Until and unless they do, your guesses about all this claptrap are as good as anybody else's.



Understood.  But, I guess what I was really asking is, for those of you who seem to like to speculate, how likely do you think it is that a new system would have any impact on the sort of usage pattern I describe?  While you say "your guess is as good as mine", I think that there are quite a few of you whose guesses  are likely to be quite a bit better than mine.  I dont know the first thing about points systems or exchanging, and dont have the same intuitive feel that many of you seem to have as to what Marriott "would", or "might", or "could", or "would never"  or "they'll get sued if they"  do.


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## Transit

Just another speculation but a platinum week now may not be a platinum week in the new system.Same for gold and silver.Adjustments could go up or down depending on real past performance. I would imagine many adjustments on units/seasons for a points system to be implemented.


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## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> Understood.  But, I guess what I was really asking is, for those of you who seem to like to speculate, how likely do you think it is that a new system would have any impact on the sort of usage pattern I describe?  While you say "your guess is as good as mine", I think that there are quite a few of you whose guesses  are likely to be quite a bit better than mine.  I dont know the first thing about points systems or exchanging, and dont have the same intuitive feel that many of you seem to have as to what Marriott "would", or "might", or "could", or "would never"  or "they'll get sued if they"  do.



Oh.  Hmmm.  Well, most important is that any new exchange system will be voluntary - whatever the terms and changes may be, owners will most likely have the option of not joining and simply continuing to use their week(s) as they do now.

My guess is that the owners who use their own weeks as you do will be the least likely folks to be affected by a new internal exchange system, especially if it's an overlay system because home resort usage shouldn't be adversely affected by that type of system.  So the way you use your weeks, staying at your home resort or renting out your excess weeks privately, probably wouldn't have to change.

If a system gets rolled out that requires an owner to convert from a deeded week to deeded points with a home resort priority, I would still expect that home resort usage wouldn't be affected to a great extent.  But, I think that type of system opens the door for changes in the reservation system and/or Marriott rental program for those owners who do join the new system, so there your ownership could be slightly impacted if Marriott integrated new reservation/rental rules into the new system.

If a system gets rolled out that requires a total conversion to a points program with no home resort priority, I have no idea.     I'll be right beside you counting on Doug's expertise if that's the choice we'll be looking at.


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## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> Why wouldn't I be okay with it?  It's similar to the system that I have bought into in which older resorts lose their trade power as newer ones open, and in which exchange use may not be equal to home resort use.  When we bought we were told to expect less value in trades, that exchanging would be most successful if we accepted a 2BR in exchange for our 3BR, so why should similar future devaluations surprise me?  Exchanging isn't our first priority, though.  For some owners it is, but IMO that's even more reason for those folks to completely understand the limitations that could be placed on their ownership.
> 
> Speaking of MRP devaluation, didn't you argue that it was something that should have been expected based on hotel trends, and that a devaluation was something direct buyers would just have to accept because they had no guarantee of future value?  You did, and you were entirely correct!  But the same is true with exchanging - Marriott is under no obligation to continue the exchange system as it exists now, and owners will just have to accept whatever changes are made.  (For the record, some of us didn't join in the outcry or rail against Marriott for that MRP devaluation because we knew it could happen, although we have used it as proof of Marriott devaluing an ownership.  But it's curious that when it's been pointed out as proof, you've chosen to not see it that way.  Have you changed your mind?   )
> 
> Plus I just don't understand why you keep bringing M/F's into this - they're set according to costs for running a resort based on things like physical location, local energy surcharges, county taxes, etc.  It takes more than high M/F for a resort to be considered a premium exchange property.  That's why I asked before if folks look at M/F as an indicator of exchange success now.  If they don't, which I don't think they do, then why would they in any new exchange system?



Actually, I am not changing my opinion to suit the situation. Devaluation over time for reward points happens in every program, simply because reward points are normally proportional to fees paid. Since the majority of reward points are given and redeemed for hotel stays, and those prices increase, it naturally follows that the redemption cost would increase- hence point devaluation. 

However, when talking about timeshares and a timeshare point system  it is a distinct entity, as opposed to trading in for reward points which is part of a much bigger system. What I mean is this- the issue of reward points has to be considered from the overall reward point program, of which timeshares being traded in for points is a small fraction of the business. So the business decisions have to be based on the reality that every reward point program devalues over time, for the reasons discussed. Since over time hotel stays generate more reward points, the cost to purchase a stay must naturally increase over time.

 A timeshare point system is different from a rewards point system, since only timeshares are being valuated and traded. What you are redeeming (ie- points representing timeshare use) will have appreciated as much as what you are using them to buy (timeshare use). So, in reality, there is no intrinsic need for a timeshare point system to devalue, as long as the properties are maintained. While it is true that a newer resort may be larger or have more amenities, or be in a more desirable location, and if so should have a higher point value (just as certain properties today will have a higher point value), just because it is new or because the developer needs to promote sales the point value should not be higher. In fact, Starwood made a mistake in doing just that, so that some of the most desirable locations could not exchange into other properties, and later had to reallocate more points to those properties because of the issues it created.

I am just pointing out that there exists the potential for excessive evaluations of new resorts as a sales tool, which could make it impossible for current owners even at premium properties to exchange into future developments (at least for same size/length of stay).

I think you are totally misunderstanding what I'm saying about MF's. Of course they are not a barometer of exchange success; I never said they were. What I am saying is that there are a few issues associated with MF's. One is will owners of lesser weeks who can no longer get an equivalent exchange (size/length of stay) and theoretically have to use 2 weeks or portions thereof, be upset over having to pay basically two MF's for possibly a one week exchange (the MF's of their two units being given up for exchange)? IF owners don't feel they are getting adequate value from their annual expenditure (MF's). the default rate might increase.

The second issue is how will MF's be assessed? Many point programs charge per point, so that owners of fewer points pay less. Others continue to charge per property. IF what Fletch has heard comes to fruition and there is no home resort advantage and/or IF the program (IF there is a program) follows the Asia Pacific program, will MF's be assessed per point (and thus vary between seasons) or will they remain stable across each resort like they do currently? There are ramifications of each scenario, and that's the issue I was getting at when bringing up MF's. Certainly MF's have nothing to do with exchange success (if they did, all units in a given resort would have the same value regardless of week, since the MF's are uniform across the board; clearly that's not the case).

While owners are at Marriott's mercy, as you aptly point out, it is also to Marriott's benefit to keep their customers happy. It is true that "owners will just have to accept whatever changes are made" to use their Marirott weeks, BUT Marriott also recognizes that they have competition, and if I don't like what they enact, I can take my business elsewhere (as can everyone else), so they have a vested interest here.


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## GregT

hipslo said:


> I have been diligently trying to keep up with this thread, but I have to admit, its beginning to make my head spin.  So, I'm trying to figure out whether or not I even have a dog in this fight.  Maybe someone could enlighten me.  Here's my situation:
> 
> So, how closely do I need to be following any of this?  I have followed what I understand to be the cardinal TUG rule - I have purchased where I desire to use.



Hipslo,

I think you're in great shape (and of course I'm speculating).  I think that, IF Marriott comes out with a points based system (and I think they will), that three types of properties will be deposited -- none of which will devalue your ability to use your valuable deeded properties:   1) current unsold inventory will be deposited into the points pool  2) whatever Marriott chooses to ROFR (which will have to be low priced for Marriott to risk their precious cash) and 3) existing, comparable owners at your home resort that choose to give up their deeded properties in exchange for entry into the points system.   Only #3 is a true competitor to your ability to continue to maximize usage of your property, and most multi-week owners at your property aren't going to contribute them all to the points-system and give up their 13 month advantage.

I think those of us with deeded properties will continue to have the benefits we've enjoyed and that it will be the rare owner who gives up their deeded Platinum property in exchange for points exchangeable into the unknown pool of what's out there.  

I think that's the missing point from our discussion here -- I think deeded properties -- especially in sold out or smaller resorts -- will have an intangible value that may result in stable (but never increasing) resale value.  I personally would like to retain Marriott deeds to the properties I wish to visit often.

I continue to think Marriott is just doing this to try and establish a recurring stable revenue stream from annual dues to participate in the points program -- and converting their existing, unsold inventory is the best way to do that, coupled with converting as many existing owners as possible into the program. 

Good luck, and enjoy your property!


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## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... While owners are at Marriott's mercy, as you aptly point out, it is also to Marriott's benefit to keep their customers happy. It is true that "owners will just have to accept whatever changes are made" to use their Marirott weeks, BUT Marriott also recognizes that they have competition, and if I don't like what they enact, I can take my business elsewhere (as can everyone else), so they have a vested interest here.



Your argument is that they should do their best to appease the lesser-invested owners who have taken advantage of II's system to upgrade what they own, so that they don't default on M/F when their weeks do not get them similar value in future trades.  But if we're going to assume that Marriott's best interests lie in keeping their customers happy, doesn't it logically follow that their focus should be on increasing the value of the product for those customers who have consistently traded down when exchanging, and are most likely venting their frustrations?  Regardless, though, their objective with any new internal exchange system will be to stimulate sales.  The newer resorts with upgraded amenities will always number fewer than the established resorts, and an exchange product like II's current offering that doesn't allow owners at the newer resorts to obtain exchange value similar to their home resort will be a colossal flop at reaching that objective.  Simply, Marriott needs to address the needs of potential customers if they want to stimulate sales, not pander to the owners who might default on Silver weeks at 15yo resorts.

There's another thing about the "keeping customers happy" issue.  As you say, the MRP exchange option for MVCI direct purchases is a very small subset of the overall Marriott Rewards membership.  The contract language for that option, although it does stipulate certain amounts at the time of purchase, does not prohibit Marriott from amending (or discontinuing) that option at any time.  If they were as concerned with keeping customers happy as you seem to think they should be, it would have been a very simple matter for them to amend the amount of MRP's given for MVCI week exchanges at the same time that the overall program redemptions have been adjusted.  They chose not to do that which allowed a certain membership group to feel that their ownership was devalued.  There isn't any reason to think that they won't make the same choice in the future to devalue in other ways the ownership for any other certain group.  Especially if at the same time, they can increase the ownership value for those in the group which Marriott considers more likely to contribute further to their bottom line.


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## dougp26364

hipslo said:


> I have been diligently trying to keep up with this thread, but I have to admit, its beginning to make my head spin.  So, I'm trying to figure out whether or not I even have a dog in this fight.  Maybe someone could enlighten me.  Here's my situation:
> 
> I currently own four platinum units at Mountainside in Park City, all purchased resale.  Every year since I have owned these units, which is now four or five years, using the 13 month reservations window, I have successfully reserved the four consecutive weeks after president's week.  Also every year, I have rented out three of these four weeks, sometimes back to Marriott, sometimes to friends/ co-workers, and sometimes via one of the online listing sites.  I've never had any trouble renting for what I consider to be reasonable amounts (though what I consider reasonable is typically less than what a lot of folks list these weeks for).  My family and I have used the fourth week to take a ski trip each year when the kids (ages 7, 10 and 13) are out of school for spring break.
> 
> I would like to continue this usage pattern for the forseeable future.  I have no interest in exchanging.  Eventually, when the kids are grown and out of the house, and I am able to retire (or semi-retire), my wife and I would like to spend those four consecutive weeks in Park City skiing each winter. Kind of like having a ski condo in Park City, except that I am not paying for anything more than I actually anticipate using.
> 
> So, how closely do I need to be following any of this?  I have followed what I understand to be the cardinal TUG rule - I have purchased where I desire to use.  My multiple week ownership has allowed me to reserve the weeks I actually wish to use, as well (there are plenty of "dog" weeks in the platinum season at Mountainside).  I have no interest in exchanging, and do not anticipate that I will ever be interested in exchanging.
> 
> Thoughts?



IMHO, nothing said here matters. Right now, I really don't care about it. Nothing changes until Marriott rolls out a new program. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, it's all speculation and heresay. 

There is absolutely NO WAY to determine if any new program will benefit or hurt owners until there is actually a new program to examine. I agree with Perry that Marriott has been irresponsible in allowing their sales team to lead people on by telling them a new program is coming out and alluding to the idea that resale buyers will find themselves left wanting. That's just a salemans ploy and not a very proffesional way to act. You can't throw dirt without losing a little ground. So long as the salemen keep throwing dirt, Marriott will continue to lose ground. 

So as far as I'm concerned there is nothing to worry about. Even if there was, what could I do about it? Complain to Marriott about something that doesn't exist? I'll wait and see what Marriott does. If I don't like the program, I won't join. If it's of benefit to me I'll take it under consideration before giving them any more money. I'm not going to worry about something that hasn't happened yet.


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## dougp26364

Transit said:


> Just another speculation but a platinum week now may not be a platinum week in the new system.Same for gold and silver.Adjustments could go up or down depending on real past performance. I would imagine many adjustments on units/seasons for a points system to be implemented.



I doubt it. Owners paid a premium for seasons. Because of that Marriott would face legal challenges should they try to move owners to a lower season. Could they move owners into another, higher season? Maybe, but if they moved my Silver Ocean Pointe week to Gold I'd still want access to the same weeks my Silver season had when I bought it. Those weeks are why I bought that season in the first place. 

If they tried to move me to Gold and changed the seasons to the same as Oceana Palms, some of my Silver season weeks would fall into Oceana Palms Gold season but some would fall into Oceana Palms Platinum season. We travel to S. Florida in either Nov. or Dec. depending on our schedule. I would have to have access to the same weeks or I'd challange their notion that I was being upgraded. 

It's a very rare thing to move an owner from one season to another. I can't think of any intstance where anyone has ever been downgraded and I can only recall a converstation where HGVC moved owners from the few bronze weeks at one of their resorts into silver season weeks. Even this I'm not certain of as my memory isn't always the greatest.


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## SueDonJ

Transit said:


> Just another speculation but a platinum week now may not be a platinum week in the new system.Same for gold and silver.Adjustments could go up or down depending on real past performance. I would imagine many adjustments on units/seasons for a points system to be implemented.





dougp26364 said:


> I doubt it. Owners paid a premium for seasons. Because of that Marriott would face legal challenges should they try to move owners to a lower season. Could they move owners into another, higher season? Maybe, but if they moved my Silver Ocean Pointe week to Gold I'd still want access to the same weeks my Silver season had when I bought it. Those weeks are why I bought that season in the first place. ...



I agree with Doug, I don't think there is any room at all for Marriott to finagle with the seasons.  Timeshare laws require, for one thing, that each owner be assigned one week/unit to coincide with the season/configuration that they've purchased and will be assigned when reserving their home resort usage.  If any season changes were to be made after the Timeshare Declaration legal papers are filed by the developer, it would throw the strict accounting of weeks/units all out of whack and the developer into a legal hot mess.


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## dougp26364

I suppose they could put in a stipulation that, to join the internal points system, you would have to agree to a new seasonal designation. While this might work in moving people from a lower season to a higher season, I'm sure it wouldn't work in reverse. For us, if they followed Oceana Palms gold season for Ocean Pointe, it wouldn't work. Sometimes we like to go there in November, which was Gold season for Oceana Palms, but sometime we prefer a December week, which if I remember correctly was Platinum for a couple of Silver weeks.

But, I could see some owners agreeing to be bumped up in season. The thought would be that they were getting that more valuable week without having to pay for it. If they agree in writing to change their week, then Marriott could do this.

Of course this would potentially create a reservations nightmare trying to keep two seperate seasonal calenders fro the same resort for two different groups of owners. It's a headache I don't see them wanting to take on unless they're convinced this new program will be so great, everyone wants to convert. That would mean they didn't think about owners like us to bought a low season specifically because the calender for that season worked for us.


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## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> Your argument is that they should do their best to appease the lesser-invested owners who have taken advantage of II's system to upgrade what they own, so that they don't default on M/F when their weeks do not get them similar value in future trades.  But if we're going to assume that Marriott's best interests lie in keeping their customers happy, doesn't it logically follow that their focus should be on increasing the value of the product for those customers who have consistently traded down when exchanging, and are most likely venting their frustrations?  Regardless, though, their objective with any new internal exchange system will be to stimulate sales.  The newer resorts with upgraded amenities will always number fewer than the established resorts, and an exchange product like II's current offering that doesn't allow owners at the newer resorts to obtain exchange value similar to their home resort will be a colossal flop at reaching that objective.  Simply, Marriott needs to address the needs of potential customers if they want to stimulate sales, not pander to the owners who might default on Silver weeks at 15yo resorts.
> 
> There's another thing about the "keeping customers happy" issue.  As you say, the MRP exchange option for MVCI direct purchases is a very small subset of the overall Marriott Rewards membership.  The contract language for that option, although it does stipulate certain amounts at the time of purchase, does not prohibit Marriott from amending (or discontinuing) that option at any time.  If they were as concerned with keeping customers happy as you seem to think they should be, it would have been a very simple matter for them to amend the amount of MRP's given for MVCI week exchanges at the same time that the overall program redemptions have been adjusted.  They chose not to do that which allowed a certain membership group to feel that their ownership was devalued.  There isn't any reason to think that they won't make the same choice in the future to devalue in other ways the ownership for any other certain group.  Especially if at the same time, they can increase the ownership value for those in the group which Marriott considers more likely to contribute further to their bottom line.



Yes- Marriott has to keep their best customers happy. But you are totally missing my point- I am not saying that Marriott has to gear a program towards keeping lesser season owners happy at all costs, even at the expense of more invested owners, but that one of the dangers in any potential program is that some owners may become disenfranchised- and that is a real pitfall that could result in a lot of unhappy owners and an increase in delinquencies (which impacts everyone). It is just a theoretical discussion- like all the rest of this discussion in this thread.

And, yes, again you are right- Marriott can legally make all sorts of changes that "could" basically make anything but usage of our home resort a moot point. You have reiterated that over and over again that there are all sorts of caveats that allow Marriott to make subtle and even broader changes. I just don't get your point to underscoring that repetitively. Just because they can, doesn't mean they will, and certainly doesn't mean that it would be in anyone's best interests- even theirs. 

They did devalue a perk of ownership when they devalued the rewards points program. Even though I acknowledged that was a necessary byproduct of any such program, I did also criticize Marriott for not having reevaluated the points they awarded for timeshare exchanges, and mentioned that it should have a built in appreciation factor. In a similar fashion, any points assigned to timeshares in a timeshare points program will likely be devalued over time as new resorts come on board IF Marriott decides that's the best way to stimulate sales. Hey- they develop Cancun, and build similar units to let's say any of the other premium properties. But in order to sell it they assign it the highest point value- even though owners in Maui or elsewhere paid a lot more and have much higher MF's on an annual basis. True- it's a valuable sales tool. But if your Plat. HH week can only trade in for 5 days instead of a week because Marriott inflated the value as a sales tool, maybe you'd think it was ok but I'm guesting there are many people who wouldn't. That's an example of what I feel is a potential risk with a points program IF the developer wants to be greedy (and since it appears that this is being introduced at least in part as a sales tool, I think it is a potential issue).

Maybe you feel that Marriott should simply continually address the needs of potential customers- that's fine, and you are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine- that if you dry up the current customer base with dissatisfaction, you narrow the future customer base. That's why I think Marriott needs to develop something that appeals to a broader base of its customers, and can't simply dismiss half of its owners with a program that won't be appealing to them. 

Time will tell....


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## m61376

While they certainly cannot change the legal designation of a deeded week, they can evaluate it either higher or lower when assigning points. For example, there is a chance that owners at resorts with excessively long seasons will be awarded fewer points than they would otherwise enjoy, since I would expect the point valuations to reflect an average valuation of all the weeks in the season. On the flip side, Silver weeks at Ocean Pointe, like Doug owns, may garner more points because the timing correlates to higher seasons at Oceana Palms and the resorts are a mile apart. 

Of course, the fact that Oceana Palms is newer and Marriott wants to promote sales there will likely factor into the equation. Not to reiterate my post above, that's a potential issue in any possible new program- how Marriott manipulates the market, so to speak. While I am not saying that Doug's silver week should get enough points to trade for similar size/length of stay at a Gold Oceana Palms week (although I could understand an argument that they should have similar valuations because they include many of the same weeks in the same locale), a Gold Ocean Palms week shouldn't garner enough points to trade into a Plat. Ocean Pointe week. I guess that's a simple but good example of how Marriott could change the value without changing the legally proscribed seasons.


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## Transit

SueDonJ said:


> I agree with Doug, I don't think there is any room at all for Marriott to finagle with the seasons.  Timeshare laws require, for one thing, that each owner be assigned one week/unit to coincide with the season/configuration that they've purchased and will be assigned when reserving their home resort usage.  If any season changes were to be made after the Timeshare Declaration legal papers are filed by the developer, it would throw the strict accounting of weeks/units all out of whack and the developer into a legal hot mess.



      You guys are still thinking in terms of your deeded weeks which will remain what you bought plat,gold,ect. When a points system is set up your week will have a points value. What ever value Marriott decides your unit is worth in points is what you will have to work with. If  Marriott does this there will be a points chart and seasons available at resorts most likely will not line up with what is a plat/gold/silver seasons now.The resort i'm interested in is Marriott legends edge. It has a huge Plat season. I don't see a October plat week needing the same amount of points as weeks 24-30. I would imagine that when a points chart comes out it will be broken down into 3 or 4 levels from a high season to a low season and *not all high seasons at every resort will match what is now plat*. This is not a negative view but a realistic speculation of what we may see when the points charts do roll out.Take a look at other points charts from Hyatt,Starwood ,and DVC  to get an idea of what the Highest and lowest points resorts/seasons may look like.


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## Transit

m61376 said:


> While they certainly cannot change the legal designation of a deeded week, they can evaluate it either higher or lower when assigning points. For example, there is a chance that owners at resorts with excessively long seasons will be awarded fewer points than they would otherwise enjoy, since I would expect the point valuations to reflect an average valuation of all the weeks in the season. On the flip side, Silver weeks at Ocean Pointe, like Doug owns, may garner more points because the timing correlates to higher seasons at Oceana Palms and the resorts are a mile apart.
> 
> Of course, the fact that Oceana Palms is newer and Marriott wants to promote sales there will likely factor into the equation. Not to reiterate my post above, that's a potential issue in any possible new program- how Marriott manipulates the market, so to speak. While I am not saying that Doug's silver week should get enough points to trade for similar size/length of stay at a Gold Oceana Palms week (although I could understand an argument that they should have similar valuations because they include many of the same weeks in the same locale), a Gold Ocean Palms week shouldn't garner enough points to trade into a Plat. Ocean Pointe week. I guess that's a simple but good example of how Marriott could change the value without changing the legally proscribed seasons.



I missed this post but was basically saying the same thing.


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## m61376

Frank- hmmm....your post brings up an interesting point, which I hadn't considered. Since all weeks are considered the same within a purchased season, Marriott would have to denote equal value to every owner of a given resort during the same season. 

However, according to your analysis, Marriott could charge different point values to reserve a week, irregardless of whether those weeks fall into the same season they were originally sold under. I expect that Marriott's "charge" for reservations will reflect demand, so they could re-evaluate their original season valuations on the "charge side." 

Thus, while I was really thinking about values between different but similar resorts because of the resort age factor, theoretically a Platinum owner of a resort such as NCV, which has a very long Platinum season and thus owners there "may" get less points IF the points reflect the average demand for the entire season, could theoretically not get enough points if they wanted to trade into the most premium weeks in the season.

That may be over-thinking what will happen, but it is an interesting question.


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## SueDonJ

Transit said:


> You guys are still thinking in terms of your deeded weeks which will remain what you bought plat,gold,ect. When a points system is set up your week will have a points value. What ever value Marriott decides your unit is worth in points is what you will have to work with. If  Marriott does this there will be a points chart and seasons available at resorts most likely will not line up with what is a plat/gold/silver seasons now.The resort i'm interested in is Marriott legends edge. It has a huge Plat season. I don't see a October plat week needing the same amount of points as weeks 24-30. I would imagine that when a points chart comes out it will be broken down into 3 or 4 levels from a high season to a low season and *not all high seasons at every resort will match what is now plat*. This is not a negative view but a realistic speculation of what we may see when the points charts do roll out.Take a look at other points charts from Hyatt,Starwood ,and DVC  to get an idea of what the Highest and lowest points resorts/seasons may look like.



I think we agree, Frank.  It's just that I was looking at it from the point of view of how many points will be assigned according to what's owned, and you're looking at it from the point of view of how many points will be required to make a reservation.  I agree with you that there is definitely an opportunity for the reservation calendars to reflect historical trends for high demand weeks. 

So let's say all Platinum/2BR/oceanview owners at XYZ resort would be assigned 5,000 points, but the calendar for points reservations would reflect historical trends for relative demand within that established season.  That would be okay only if the highest point value for a 2BR/oceanview during any of those weeks in the original platinum season do not exceed 5,000 points, which would guarantee that all owners would still have access to all of the inventory stipulated in the original deeds.   This could mean added value for the owners who reserve weeks other than holiday/high demand weeks at lower point costs.  IMO, owners would consider this option.

Any other points conversion options which would prohibit owners from reserving any weeks/units that are currently available to them by virtue of their existing deeds, would require that owners accept new deeds stipulating the new terms.  I suppose it's possible that some might choose to devalue their own weeks in such a way, if it works for their intended usage and saves them money in the long run, but would it be cost-effective for Marriott to go through all the legal rigamarole for the benefit of only a few?  I dunno.


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## Stefa

SueDonJ said:


> I think we agree, Frank.  It's just that I was looking at it from the point of view of how many points will be assigned according to what's owned, and you're looking at it from the point of view of how many points will be required to make a reservation.  I agree with you that there is definitely an opportunity for the reservation calendars to reflect historical trends for high demand weeks.
> 
> So let's say all Platinum/2BR/oceanview owners at XYZ resort would be assigned 5,000 points, but the calendar for points reservations would reflect historical trends for relative demand within that established season.  That would be okay only if the highest point value for a 2BR/oceanview during any of those weeks in the original platinum season do not exceed 5,000 points, which would guarantee that all owners would still have access to all of the inventory stipulated in the original deeds.   This could mean added value for the owners who reserve weeks other than holiday/high demand weeks at lower point costs.  IMO, owners would consider this option.
> 
> Any other points conversion options which would prohibit owners from reserving any weeks/units that are currently available to them by virtue of their existing deeds, would require that owners accept new deeds stipulating the new terms.  I suppose it's possible that some might choose to devalue their own weeks in such a way, if it works for their intended usage and saves them money in the long run, but would it be cost-effective for Marriott to go through all the legal rigamarole for the benefit of only a few?  I dunno.



I don't know how easily such a system could be implemented, but Marriott could make an exception for using your home resort/week.   The could still (potentially) have a higher point value for some weeks but allow owners to reserve those weeks if they own that particular view/season/size even though they are not alloted enough points to get said week via trade.


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## RandR

Transit said:


> You guys are still thinking in terms of your deeded weeks which will remain what you bought plat,gold,ect. When a points system is set up your week will have a points value. What ever value Marriott decides your unit is worth in points is what you will have to work with. If  Marriott does this there will be a points chart and seasons available at resorts most likely will not line up with what is a plat/gold/silver seasons now.The resort i'm interested in is Marriott legends edge. It has a huge Plat season. I don't see a October plat week needing the same amount of points as weeks 24-30. I would imagine that when a points chart comes out it will be broken down into 3 or 4 levels from a high season to a low season and *not all high seasons at every resort will match what is now plat*. This is not a negative view but a realistic speculation of what we may see when the points charts do roll out.Take a look at other points charts from Hyatt,Starwood ,and DVC  to get an idea of what the Highest and lowest points resorts/seasons may look like.



But wouldn't that cause problems?  What happens if someone bought a Plat week from the developer and was told the deeded week is not important as long as it is in the Plat season but now under the points system that week is given less points because the week that is deeded is not in the new "high" season?  Why did they spend all that money for something that is now devalued?  If they give everyone that has a Plat week the same amount of points but lower the number of points needed for some of the those weeks, you will have excess points and possible not enough weeks for all owners to be guaranteed a week at their hoome resort.


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## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> Yes- Marriott has to keep their best customers happy. But you are totally missing my point- I am not saying that Marriott has to gear a program towards keeping lesser season owners happy at all costs, even at the expense of more invested owners, but that one of the dangers in any potential program is that some owners may become disenfranchised- and that is a real pitfall that could result in a lot of unhappy owners and an increase in delinquencies (which impacts everyone). It is just a theoretical discussion- like all the rest of this discussion in this thread.
> 
> And, yes, again you are right- Marriott can legally make all sorts of changes that "could" basically make anything but usage of our home resort a moot point. You have reiterated that over and over again that there are all sorts of caveats that allow Marriott to make subtle and even broader changes. I just don't get your point to underscoring that repetitively. Just because they can, doesn't mean they will, and certainly doesn't mean that it would be in anyone's best interests- even theirs.
> 
> They did devalue a perk of ownership when they devalued the rewards points program. Even though I acknowledged that was a necessary byproduct of any such program, I did also criticize Marriott for not having reevaluated the points they awarded for timeshare exchanges, and mentioned that it should have a built in appreciation factor. In a similar fashion, any points assigned to timeshares in a timeshare points program will likely be devalued over time as new resorts come on board IF Marriott decides that's the best way to stimulate sales. Hey- they develop Cancun, and build similar units to let's say any of the other premium properties. But in order to sell it they assign it the highest point value- even though owners in Maui or elsewhere paid a lot more and have much higher MF's on an annual basis. True- it's a valuable sales tool. But if your Plat. HH week can only trade in for 5 days instead of a week because Marriott inflated the value as a sales tool, maybe you'd think it was ok but I'm guesting there are many people who wouldn't. That's an example of what I feel is a potential risk with a points program IF the developer wants to be greedy (and since it appears that this is being introduced at least in part as a sales tool, I think it is a potential issue).
> 
> Maybe you feel that Marriott should simply continually address the needs of potential customers- that's fine, and you are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine- that if you dry up the current customer base with dissatisfaction, you narrow the future customer base. That's why I think Marriott needs to develop something that appeals to a broader base of its customers, and can't simply dismiss half of its owners with a program that won't be appealing to them.
> 
> Time will tell....



Is there some reason why me repeating myself is a problem, when you and most others in this discussion are doing the same thing?  I'm just not sure I get why you are repeatedly telling me that I am repeating myself.  

We agree here more than we disagree, m.  You're right, Marriott shouldn't simply dismiss half of its owners.  Your point of view seems to be, though, that Marriott's concern going forward should be with the owners who may find themselves getting less exchange value in a new exchange system from their Silver season/1BR weeks than they may be getting now.  My point of view is that Marriott should be concerned with the owners who are now getting less exchange value from their Platinum/3BR weeks and could get more in a new system.  If most owners are unhappy with II, as Fletch indicated, it's likely that those Platinum/3BR owners are the ones voicing their unhappiness.  IMO, if any group of owners must be adversely affected by Marriott rolling out a new exchange system, it shouldn't be the owners whose resort/season/unit configuration practically guarantees them a trade-down in the current system.

I don't know if it's correct but I also get the feeling that you think maybe Marriott shouldn't roll out any new system because the risk of upsetting any group of owners is too great.  If I'm incorrect here, ignore me.  If not, isn't risk/reward something that businesses have to assess on a routine basis?  Marriott has had to take steps this year in this terrible economy - development suspension, etc. - that have severely impacted their bottom line.  Remaining static right now isn't an option, they must generate revenue somewhere.  I'm guessing that the revenue generated by an internal exchange system for Marriott, coming from stimulated sales and current owner conversions, far exceeds whatever risk there may be in a certain number of current owners becoming unhappy enough to default.  Plus, defaults don't only hurt Marriott or other owners, the individual defaulting could suffer personal financial effects for quite a while.  I don't think that many would or could make that choice as easily as you insinuate.  But, if you're worried about Silver/1BR owners defaulting, why aren't you worried about Platinum/3BR owners defaulting?


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## AwayWeGo

*Is There An Echo In Here ?*




SueDonJ said:


> Is there some reason why me repeating myself is a problem, when you and most others in this discussion are doing the same thing?


Shux, if I didn't keep on repeating myself, then most of the time I wouldn't have much to say -- not just here on TUG-BBS, but practically everywhere. 

The main problem at my age is trying to remember whom I already told stuff to & who's hearing it for the 1st time. 

On TUG-BBS, there's apt to be a goodly measure of repetition in just about every entry I send in -- not that there's anything wrong with that. 

Official TUG-BBS policy frowns on duplicate entries, but somehow I manage to keep on typing the same things over & over without actually bumping into the _No Repeats_ rule, most of the time anyhow. 

Keep in mind also that _Repetition Is The Mother Of Learning._ 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## m61376

Stefa said:


> I don't know how easily such a system could be implemented, but Marriott could make an exception for using your home resort/week.   The could still (potentially) have a higher point value for some weeks but allow owners to reserve those weeks if they own that particular view/season/size even though they are not alloted enough points to get said week via trade.



That's what I was thinking when i read Frank's post. if the points system is an overlay system, affecting only internal trades but not reserving your own deeded week, that would work.


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## SueDonJ

RandR said:


> But wouldn't that cause problems?  What happens if someone bought a Plat week from the developer and was told the deeded week is not important as long as it is in the Plat season but now under the points system that week is given less points because the week that is deeded is not in the new "high" season?  Why did they spend all that money for something that is now devalued?  If they give everyone that has a Plat week the same amount of points but lower the number of points needed for some of the those weeks, you will have excess points and possible not enough weeks for all owners to be guaranteed a week at their hoome resort.



But in an overlay system, owners would still be reserving their own use according to the terms of the existing deed - they would still only be able to reserve their one week.  It's only when they might use the points alloted to that week to exchange back into their home resort/season, that they could possibly get one-week-plus.  Exchanges would still be subject to availability.

Hmmmm.  <sound of truck backing up beep-beep-beep>

I think I've changed my mind about this.  I don't think Marriott will allot the same amount of points to every Platinum/2BR/Oceanview owner and at the same time muck around with the reservation calendar so that exchange weeks within that established season would require different points.  Because theoretically in that system, many owners could reserve a week and then deposit it to get the allotted points and try to exchange back in to a different week in the same season for less points.  It would be like musical chairs for owner weeks, with everyone trying to exchange back in.  Hmmmmm.  Unless they make a new rule that you can't exchange back in to the resort/season/unit configuration that you own?

Where is Fletch?  He needs to reign us in here again and tell us that we're making this far too complicated.  :hysterical:


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## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> We agree here more than we disagree, m.  You're right, Marriott shouldn't simply dismiss half of its owners.  Your point of view seems to be, though, that Marriott's concern going forward should be with the owners who may find themselves getting less exchange value in a new exchange system from their Silver season/1BR weeks than they may be getting now.  My point of view is that Marriott should be concerned with the owners who are now getting less exchange value from their Platinum/3BR weeks and could get more in a new system.  If most owners are unhappy with II, as Fletch indicated, it's likely that those Platinum/3BR owners are the ones voicing their unhappiness.  IMO, if any group of owners must be adversely affected by Marriott rolling out a new exchange system, it shouldn't be the owners whose resort/season/unit configuration practically guarantees them a trade-down in the current system.
> 
> I don't know if it's correct but I also get the feeling that you think maybe Marriott shouldn't roll out any new system because the risk of upsetting any group of owners is too great.  If I'm incorrect here, ignore me.  If not, isn't risk/reward something that businesses have to assess on a routine basis?  Marriott has had to take steps this year in this terrible economy - development suspension, etc. - that have severely impacted their bottom line.  Remaining static right now isn't an option, they must generate revenue somewhere.  I'm guessing that the revenue generated by an internal exchange system for Marriott, coming from stimulated sales and current owner conversions, far exceeds whatever risk there may be in a certain number of current owners becoming unhappy enough to default.  Plus, defaults don't only hurt Marriott or other owners, the individual defaulting could suffer personal financial effects for quite a while.  I don't think that many would or could make that choice as easily as you insinuate.  But, if you're worried about Silver/1BR owners defaulting, why aren't you worried about Platinum/3BR owners defaulting?


Frankly, I think rolling out a new system in this economy is risky. People may be frustrated with II (esp. those Plat. 3 BR owners), but they bought into a system the way it is and the potential uproar IF any new system (IF there is a new system) puts them at a disadvantage could be big. People get accustomed and accepting of what they already had; after all, it's what they bought into. It is different if something is changed and people suddenly find themselves at a disadvantage.

I guess where we disagree is that I don't think any new system should be geared to make one group happy at another's expense. If Marriott is unable to create something that most owners would find value in, then I guess my opinion would be not to rock the boat. When I looked at the Asia Pacific points program I didn't see that most people would benefit. I don't know if they will create a program which most people perceive as being positive. I do feel that if the program, as Fletch suggested is good for the Plat. owners who should join and not so good for others, who should stay with II, that overall it won't be a good program. Of course, that's my opinion, and you are free to disagree.

And I do worry that IF Marriott uses this as a sales tool to enhance sales (which would be a likely scenario) and artificially inflate point values at future resorts, that your nice 3BR Plat. HH resort will only get the same number of days in a 2BR, with devaluation an intrinsic part of the program. Also, IF the point valuation mirrors the other points program which they rolled out (which I can only guess was a trial of sorts for a system wide overhaul), you might find that you need your whole 3BR to trade into many other 2BR's anyway, that Marirott arbitrarily has assigned higher point values. So, while it is always hard to get a 3BR on exchange because of inventory, at least most 3BR owners could lock off and use their 2BR for an equivalent exchange (at least owners of 3BR lock-offs; I'm not sure, but I don't think the HH 3BR's are lock-offs); I'm guessing that those great Plat. 3BR weeks won't be high enough on the Marriott ladder to get some of the premium 3BR's elsewhere. When I looked over the Asia Pacific point allocation and saw that a 2BR Waiohai owner couldn't exchange into a 2BR in Ko'Olina for a week, it made me realize that arbitrary point allocations could be a real impediment to what we're accustomed to considering as equal trades.

I guess that's my biggest concern and why I am wary of a new program. My guess is that, in the case of the Asia Pacific program, Marriott has lots of Ko'Olina inventory left to sell, so enhancing its points value is a good sales tool. Good for the future buyer (at least until the next resort comes along), but bad for other owners who won't have enough points to trade in. I'd venture to guess that most owners at these two properties, while liking one over the other perhaps for their own reasons, would have considered them as equivalent trades.

Admittedly, those that own whatever Marriott deems to be the top weeks will be happy campers (at least for the short run); Platinum owners of "lesser" resorts likely won't be as happy, and Gold owners (except for a few high demand Gold properties) probably less thrilled and I foresee a lot of unhappy Silver and Bronze week owners. So I don't think we can make the assumption that a new system will prevent Plat. week owners from essentially "trading down." I have to admit, I thought the same thing, until I looked at their earlier program roll out.

As for MF's and defaults- at status quo (the way things are) the vast majority of people feel they get value out of their ownership, enough to pay their MF's. Diminishing value for some owners increases the risk of some people defaulting. While it is not as simple as "walking away," if you look elsewhere (have you read the posts from Starwood's owners discussing the problem) it seems that many disenchanted owners have felt that they'd rather swallow the credit hit from walking away than continue paying MF's. I was surprised, but it has happened. If it could happen there when owners felt disenfranchised, it can happen here. That's why I'm acknowledging a risk.

Aside from the issue of whether resale units are charged more up front, I own weeks that will likely do well in the new system (at least initially), so I'm not voicing concerns from a personal vantage point. I am just not convinced that changing things will benefit enough people while only minimally negatively impacting others for such a program to work overall. Again, I know it has worked very well elsewhere, but superimposing a system upon another is very different than having a set of rules that encouraged the initial sales.


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## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> But in an overlay system, owners would still be reserving their own use according to the terms of the existing deed - they would still only be able to reserve their one week.  It's only when they might use the points alloted to that week to exchange back into their home resort/season, that they could possibly get one-week-plus.  Exchanges would still be subject to availability.
> 
> Hmmmm.  <sound of truck backing up beep-beep-beep>
> 
> I think I've changed my mind about this.  I don't think Marriott will allot the same amount of points to every Platinum/2BR/Oceanview owner and at the same time muck around with the reservation calendar so that exchange weeks within that established season would require different points.  Because theoretically in that system, many owners could reserve a week and then deposit it to get the allotted points and try to exchange back in to a different week in the same season for less points.  It would be like musical chairs for owner weeks, with everyone trying to exchange back in.  Hmmmmm.  Unless they make a new rule that you can't exchange back in to the resort/season/unit configuration that you own?
> 
> Where is Fletch?  He needs to reign us in here again and tell us that we're making this far too complicated.  :hysterical:



Haha...it could, though, even out demand for the weeks in a season. Take NCV, for example. For the sake of argument, give every Platinum owner 5,000 points. Every Plat. owner can try to reserve a prime week in the season as they do now at 12 months, using their owned week (not points). However, at some time that Marriott has predetermined (assuming that they decide to maintain home resort advantage and not eliminate it as Fletch suggested), they can trade into MCV or any other resort, but the "cost" for trades are 6,000 points for July to mid-August weeks, 5,000 points perhaps for June and late August weeks, and 4,000 points for other Platinum season weeks. Theoretically, some owners might opt for lesser value weeks in the season to maximize their points, and instead of being angry that they can't get that coveted July week, may be happy that they've gotten a longer stay.


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## Transit

Marriott has sent out numerous surveys to see what the majority of owners want and has had ample time to study the positive and negatives of other points systems. I'm sure that they would not roll out a half baked plan in this economy. They must have something up their sleeves good enough to make money and convince owners to be involved in. It may be the ignition to move the whole timeshare industry back in the right direction. ..............Or maybe Perry's right and this is the end?????


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## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... I guess where we disagree is that I don't think any new system should be geared to make one group happy at another's expense. If Marriott is unable to create something that most owners would find value in, then I guess my opinion would be not to rock the boat. ...



But we don't disagree there, m.  This may be going over old ground, but I don't think Marriott's objective anytime should be looking for ways to devalue ownership for any certain group of owners.  If that's the only reason for considering any new ownership use/value/option/whatever, it is a terrible reason!  But that isn't why they're considering a new internal exchange system - the reason for this is to generate revenue.  That's it.

I don't even think that when they do have a good reason to implement a new whatever that they should be looking for ways to gear it toward, or reward, a certain subset of owners.  The most equitable should be the norm, but we must recognize that no system will satisfy every owner all of the time.

However, the fact is that the current exchange system with II is NOT anywhere near the most equitable.  Owners of Silver/1BR/older resorts are routinely able to trade up and owners of Platinum/3BR/newer resorts are routinely limited by availability to trade-downs.  IF Marriott is to roll out a new internal exchange system in an effort to generate revenue, with an eye toward it being most equitable, the natural result of that objective being met will result in different exchange usage for those owners who now enjoy/suffer those trade-ups/downs.  But punishment/reward isn't the objective; equitability is.

I think it's inevitable that some change is going to happen sooner rather than later with our Marriott timeshares, because their bottom line cannot sustain the non-growth that they're suffering in this economy.  If the economy wasn't so bad right now, they wouldn't have had to suspend further development and would be able to continue selling inventory at full price.  Instead, their latest and greatest resorts are either still on the drawing board or selling very slowly at reduced prices, and their established customer base is sitting gingerly on their owned weeks, some realizing for the first time that there is inherent devaluation in owning timeshares, waiting to see if the other shoe is going to drop.  MVCI has to develop some way to generate a revenue stream that is perceived by enough existing and potential owners to be of fair value - do you see any other way for them to do so?


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## winger

Transit said:


> Just to add to the speculation I would imagine that if Marriott does go to an internal point system units would be offered AC's more frequently for II deposit.



OF course it will. Basic law of supply and demand.


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## Transit

winger said:


> OF course it will. Basic law of supply and demand.



Not exactly a given . If Marriott takes control of inventory away from II like other points systems AC's may not be issued at all.After thinking about this it can go either way depending on the system they produce.


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## dougp26364

Transit said:


> Not exactly a given . If Marriott take control of inventory away from II like other points systems AC's may not be issued at all.After thinking about this it can go either way depending on the system they produce.



In order for points to have value, there will be a contract with Interval stating Marriott will provide so many weeks of a certain quality. Otherwise, if Marriott only provided Interval with the lowest quality weeks, Marriott points would be worthless for outside exchange. Since a contract will be in place which determines in advance what quality of units and how many internval can expect to receive, there is no need for Interval to offer AC's. 

With DRI we have our units in their points based system. I receive no offers of AC's to deposit our points. However, if I were to deposit the weeks used to generate those DRI points, certain weeks still receive AC's from Interval. Of course the current value of AC's could be debated and, IMHO, they aren't worth the cyber paper their printed on.

A points system won't generate AC's. It will eliminate them IMHO. But, as mentioned, those that remain in the weeks based system MIGHT see an increase in AC offers but, that will depend on the contract and what type and how many units Marriott agrees to give Interval from any points based exchange program.


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## cruisin

m61376 said:


> F
> I guess that's my biggest concern and why I am wary of a new program. My guess is that, in the case of the Asia Pacific program, Marriott has lots of Ko'Olina inventory left to sell, so enhancing its points value is a good sales tool. Good for the future buyer (at least until the next resort comes along), but bad for other owners who won't have enough points to trade in. I'd venture to guess that most owners at these two properties, while liking one over the other perhaps for their own reasons, would have considered them as equivalent trades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't Hyatt just do that with Monterey, couldnt sell it out , so lets make it worth more points. Its just too hard to resist, and if the new system Marriott rolls out allows for this, it spells big trouble.


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## JimIg23

Transit said:


> You guys are still thinking in terms of your deeded weeks which will remain what you bought plat,gold,ect. When a points system is set up your week will have a points value. What ever value Marriott decides your unit is worth in points is what you will have to work with. If  Marriott does this there will be a points chart and seasons available at resorts most likely will not line up with what is a plat/gold/silver seasons now.The resort I'm interested in is Marriott legends edge. It has a huge Plat season. I don't see a October plat week needing the same amount of points as weeks 24-30. I would imagine that when a points chart comes out it will be broken down into 3 or 4 levels from a high season to a low season and *not all high seasons at every resort will match what is now plat*. This is not a negative view but a realistic speculation of what we may see when the points charts do roll out.Take a look at other points charts from Hyatt,Starwood ,and DVC  to get an idea of what the Highest and lowest points resorts/seasons may look like.



I agree.  The points will probably be different even within what used to be their current seasons.  This may have a negative effect on some people.  But at the end of the day, I don't see any legal issues with this because 1) when they roll out the program, current owners will be told what their point value will be and what the reservation charts will be.  It will be the owners choice to sign up for the new system, thereby accepting the new point value. and 2) if you don't join, the seasons will stay the same for you.


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## dougp26364

JimIg23 said:


> I agree.  The points will probably be different even within what used to be their current seasons.  This may have a negative effect on some people.  But at the end of the day, I don't see any legal issues with this because 1) when they roll out the program, current owners will be told what their point value will be and what the reservation charts will be.  It will be the owners choice to sign up for the new system, thereby accepting the new point value. and 2) if you don't join, the seasons will stay the same for you.



I don't think there will be a difference within the seasons for one reason. When the weeks were sold, no one had a choice as to what week they were purchasing. Giving some owners in a season more points just because they got lucky and had one of the more desirable weeks assigned to their deed would raise a lot of complaints and customer distatisfaction. IMHO, it's not goint to happen. As a betting man, my bet is all platinum weeks will have one point value at each indivicual resort. Same with Gold and Silver. 

In hind sight, Marriott may wish they had sold those weeks differently, making all holiday weeks platinum plus, but it's a little to late to turn the clock back now. 

Could it happen? Sure it could. I just see to many negatives and not enough positives for Marriott to go that direction.


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## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> I don't think there will be a difference within the seasons for one reason. When the weeks were sold, no one had a choice as to what week they were purchasing. Giving some owners in a season more points just because they got lucky and had one of the more desirable weeks assigned to their deed would raise a lot of complaints and customer distatisfaction. IMHO, it's not goint to happen. As a betting man, my bet is all platinum weeks will have one point value at each indivicual resort. Same with Gold and Silver.
> 
> In hind sight, Marriott may wish they had sold those weeks differently, making all holiday weeks platinum plus, but it's a little to late to turn the clock back now.
> 
> Could it happen? Sure it could. I just see to many negatives and not enough positives for Marriott to go that direction.


I agree that Marriott will assign uniform point values to all owners in a given season. To suddenly make week numbers on deeds important (for floating weeks) would just be too hypocritical, whether or not they gave owners the option to join.

However- and here's the rub- they can, and I think likely will for at least some resorts, have a varying point schedule for trading into different weeks, even if they were assigned the same season. In reality, this makes sense- it would reflect real demand and I think would actually be more equitable in many ways, although it would be in essence acknowledging that the Platinum season, for example, was perhaps too long in some places.

In an ideal situation, it could reflect other discrepancies- such as Silver at Ocean Pointe being the same as Gold and I think even some Plat. weeks at the newer Oceana Palms a mile away.

Like Sue has posted, there theoretically is a lot of potential to make things better for a lot of owners. The flip side is that there will likely be a lot of losers and I am not sure that they can develop a new system without a lot of pitfalls. I hope they can.

As Cruisin pointed out- even Hyatt, with an established and well regarded system, couldn't resist the temptation of perhaps artificially inflating point value simply to promote sales. Good for the buyers of that particular resort, but bad for every other owner who would like to trade into it one day. I think that is a very big issue potentially going forward, and will depend a large part on corporate greed. 

That's why I would feel more comfortable with a program that actually uses some realistic figure for demand (and the only one I can think of already in place are rack rental rates for the properties themselves) to set the point values, with average rates over a season being used to determine the point allocation and average rates over a set timeframe being used to determine the point "cost" of trading in. IF there was a set formula, then there would be a system in place that would at least partially offset the temptation to artificially inflate values at newer resorts (unless Marriott was also able to rent them at higher prices; if they are that good, then the law of supply and demand would dictate higher values for both rentals and therefore points). I also feel that it would invoke a certain perception of fairness if there was a sense of transparency rather than randomness to the point assignment.

I know I am just pontificating here (as are we all) but I'd just like to see a program where values are set realistically and owners can understand them rather than looking at them and wondering if someone was throwing darts making them up. When I looked at the Asia pacific point allocations, one of my first thoughts was "how did they ever think this up?' I'd hate to see that here.


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## dougp26364

Personally, I'm in favor of the way Hilton has done things.

Point values for a season are the same at every resort.
Point values for better views are consistant thoughout the resorts.
Point values for units with upgraded amenities (penthouse units for example) are the same throughout the system.

The one blip IMHO with HGVC has been the grand Waikikian, which cost more in points no matter what the unit location, because HGVC says all the units have "upgraded" amenities. Hilton lost some of my faith when they started down the road of increase points required at the newest resort under the guise of upgraded amenities.

So what's the advantage of buying into Hawaii rather than Vegas or Orlando? You KNOW you can get the unit you bought months ahead of everyone else. Owners in Vegas and Orlando get the left overs. 

But of course this isn't what I expect from Marriott. I expect each resort will have different points totals and the newer resorts will be more expensive than the older resorts. I fully expect that Oceana Palms will receive more points than Ocean Pointe. I expect Oceana Palms Plat. season weeks will recieve more points than Ocean Pointe. 

When you think about it, that makes it somewhat easier for those that buy to exchange. They can buy a unit with the number of points they need to get most of the exchanges they want. Newer resorts have always been a tougher trade, even in a weeks based exchange system. All you have to do is look to HHI to see the truth in that. I can almost always get one of the older Marriott's on HHI but, Grand Ocean, Surfwatch and Barony are tougher trades. Which would you suspect would get higher points on HHI? The easier exchanges or those that tougher?


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## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> Personally, I'm in favor of the way Hilton has done things.
> 
> Point values for a season are the same at every resort.
> Point values for better views are consistant thoughout the resorts.
> Point values for units with upgraded amenities (penthouse units for example) are the same throughout the system.



I think that would be appealing to a lot of owners and be a lot less confusing but, like you, am doubtful that they would do that.

And, while I can understand the rationale of assigning higher values to perhaps the 3 newer resorts in HH than the two older ones, since I am assuming the amenities warrant it, my concern is that Marriott will perhaps assign more to Surfwatch to promote sales there (since I think it is active sales) or do similarly elsewhere even though the properties don't warrant that.


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## DanCali

m61376 said:


> That's why I would feel more comfortable with a program that actually uses some realistic figure for demand



You already have this. It's called II...

Seriously - this is as close as you get to a true market because, for all its limitations, II takes both supply and demand into account and adjusts dynamically based on historical data. You do get an advantage for depositing early but you may still get your exchange 4 months out if you deposit a strong trader and the supply is there.


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## Stefa

m61376 said:


> And, while I can understand the rationale of assigning higher values to perhaps the 3 newer resorts in HH than the two older ones, since I am assuming the amenities warrant it, my concern is that Marriott will perhaps assign more to Surfwatch to promote sales there (since I think it is active sales) or do similarly elsewhere even though the properties don't warrant that.



Starwood did this with their Cancun property.   Cancun was originally awarded 95,000 points for a 2br platinum, but the value was changed to 148,000 (enough to get a 2 bedroom in Hawaii) in order to jumpstart sales.   Starwood also keeps the values of their highly desirable Caribbean properties artificially low which helps to promote sales at some of the other resorts.


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## m61376

Stefa said:


> *Starwood did this with their Cancun property.   Cancun was originally awarded 95,000 points for a 2br platinum, but the value was changed to 148,000 (enough to get a 2 bedroom in Hawaii) in order to jumpstart sales.   Starwood also keeps the values of their highly desirable Caribbean properties artificially low which helps to promote sales at some of the other resorts*.



That's why I've referenced many of the problems that Starwood owners have been having, and how many of them are thoroughly disenchanted (many even to the point of just defaulting on their MF's because they just aren't getting enough value anymore). Hopefully Marriott will take note and, IF they do introduce a new program, will try to avoid many of the pitfalls of other programs. The fear is that corporate greed may exceed common sense.


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## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> I think that would be appealing to a lot of owners and be a lot less confusing but, like you, am doubtful that they would do that.
> 
> And, while I can understand the rationale of assigning higher values to perhaps the 3 newer resorts in HH than the two older ones, since I am assuming the amenities warrant it, my concern is that Marriott will perhaps assign more to Surfwatch to promote sales there (since I think it is active sales) or do similarly elsewhere even though the properties don't warrant that.



I'm not sure, though, that the newer/still-in-developer-sales-mode resorts shouldn't be allotted higher point totals.  But not because they're in developer sales and need the sales boost, as you suggest, but because the newer resorts have better amenities, were built with superior products, and yes, cost more to purchase.  Using the example given (and hopefully not being seen as biased because I own at both,) I would fully expect SurfWatch and Barony Beach Gold/2BR/oceanside units to be considered unequal.  Even with this year's refurb, Barony does not offer the level of luxury that SurfWatch does.  The same comparisons can be made in any area which offers more than one MVCI resort or Marriott hotel - the newer ones are more in demand for exchanges for a reason, and it isn't only that folks like shiny new bling.  With each and every resort that comes online MVCI/Marriott upgrades the overall product - in layout, appliances, architecture, furnishings, etc...

Another example I could use is Crystal Shores at Marco Island.  Having seen it, I understand the pricing structure that was put in place for developer sales.  Owner names are imprinted on bricks around the pools there (similar to DVC owner tapestries, I think) and, although I wouldn't choose to buy there, it honestly wasn't surprising to see how many have bought into it.  The place is gorgeous, stunning, the most high-end resort I've seen yet.  IMO, owners there should be allotted more points than other ocean resorts and not just because of the prices they've paid - they truly do own a superior product.  And it's not even finished yet.  (I haven't seen the new properties in Hawaii, Maui especially, but probably I would say the same for those.)

I agree, m, that there's reason to watch Marriott to be sure that future point values for new resorts aren't skewed drastically simply because it will boost sales, but I'm not sure that it's unreasonable to expect that new resorts will have higher point values.  They should, if they're a better product and if they cost more to purchase because of that.


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## Stefa

m61376 said:


> That's why I've referenced many of the problems that Starwood owners have been having, and how many of them are thoroughly disenchanted (many even to the point of just defaulting on their MF's because they just aren't getting enough value anymore). Hopefully Marriott will take note and, IF they do introduce a new program, will try to avoid many of the pitfalls of other programs. The fear is that corporate greed may exceed common sense.



To be fair, Starwood has other issues.  For example, you can't bank points (Staroptions) for use in future years, which means many owners have no hope of getting to Hawaii since they don't have enough points for even a studio.   (You can barrow points, but only <90 days before checkin.)  They also have a larger disparity in quality between the Sheraton and Westin resorts.   

On the other hand, at least some of the problems are due to the fact that Starwood didn't build all of their resorts so, in that sense, they had to retro fit their system which is what Marriott is considering doing.


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## m61376

Sue- While I do agree that there is good rationale for allocating more points to properties IF they really are better and have more amenities, just because they are newer doesn't necessarily make them better or more in demand. I haven't yet been to HH so I cannot comment, but I have read many posts by people who rank GO clearly better than both Barony and Surfwatch, and many who rate Surfwatch number three. Again, this is not from personal experience, and obviously your opinion is different, and I am not being critical. Clearly, there isn't a consensus of opinion over which resort is better. What I do think is that IF Marriott were to create a disparity in point valuation between these three resorts, there are bound to be disgruntled owners- and that's one minor example. 

Another which many on this Board would appreciate is Aruba. Clearly the Surf Club is newer, more expensive and I'd argue better amenities. I know others would disagree. I'm sure OC owners, after paying a fortune for refurbishment, will have some very angry posts if they are allocated less points than the SC properties are. 

So, while there are some properties in the same locale that most people may perceive as being distinctly better (perhaps Oceana Palms and Ocean Pointe are good examples, or the two Maui sections), there are many others where, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 

Just because a property is newer or cost more to build, doesn't mean it is better. "New" is very transient. That's why I was musing that there should be a somewhat objective set of criteria that values are based upon (as I suggested, possibly based on some formulation of what the fair market rental rate is, which is an already established formulation that represents true value and reflects different amenities and property demand), rather than some arbitrary designation which can unfairly be skewed to enhance sales. 

That's why what Doug suggested, following at least what Hilton did until corporate greed perhaps took precedence, was an interesting concept. Leveling the playing field across seasons would be in keeping with the concepts that many owners bought into the program with and would lessen the impact of superimposing a new system.


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## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> Sue- While I do agree that there is good rationale for allocating more points to properties IF they really are better and have more amenities, just because they are newer doesn't necessarily make them better or more in demand. I haven't yet been to HH so I cannot comment, but I have read many posts by people who rank GO clearly better than both Barony and Surfwatch, and many who rate Surfwatch number three. Again, this is not from personal experience, and obviously your opinion is different, and I am not being critical. Clearly, there isn't a consensus of opinion over which resort is better. What I do think is that IF Marriott were to create a disparity in point valuation between these three resorts, there are bound to be disgruntled owners- and that's one minor example.
> 
> Another which many on this Board would appreciate is Aruba. Clearly the Surf Club is newer, more expensive and I'd argue better amenities. I know others would disagree. I'm sure OC owners, after paying a fortune for refurbishment, will have some very angry posts if they are allocated less points than the SC properties are.
> 
> So, while there are some properties in the same locale that most people may perceive as being distinctly better (perhaps Oceana Palms and Ocean Pointe are good examples, or the two Maui sections), there are many others where, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Just because a property is newer or cost more to build, doesn't mean it is better. "New" is very transient. That's why I was musing that there should be a somewhat objective set of criteria that values are based upon (as I suggested, possibly based on some formulation of what the fair market rental rate is, which is an already established formulation that represents true value and reflects different amenities and property demand), rather than some arbitrary designation which can unfairly be skewed to enhance sales.
> 
> That's why what Doug suggested, following at least what Hilton did until corporate greed perhaps took precedence, was an interesting concept. Leveling the playing field across seasons would be in keeping with the concepts that many owners bought into the program with and would lessen the impact of superimposing a new system.



Of course people have personal preferences, and I'm not saying here that SurfWatch is a better resort than either Barony or Grande Ocean in the sense that everyone will like SurfWatch more.  Clearly, we all have likes and dislikes, and the different resorts all have a different feel to them.  I don't disagree that some folks will favor Grande Ocean over SurfWatch, or Aruba's Surf Club over Ocean Club.  I'm not talking about personal preferences here, though.

What I am talking about is an objective review of the costs and materials associated with each resort.  SurfWatch's design incorporates higher-quality material and the units there are higher-priced than any of the other HH resorts.  Following Barony's refurb this year I'm pretty certain that GO's pricing structure still exceeds Barony's.  I'd allot points to all of them based on those costs.  I think, actually, that rack rates for direct rentals pretty closely follow those guidelines, and your idea to follow rental rates is an equitable solution.  If rack rates at the two Aruba resorts are equal then I'd expect their point allocations to be equal also.  But if they're not, then there should be a relative difference in the points allocated.

I completely disagree that every Platinum/2BR/Gardenview week under the MVCI umbrella should be allocated the same amount of points.  There are obvious differences in the quality between the resorts that are reflected in purchase prices and rack rental rates.  Points should be allocated based on the differences.


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## m61376

Sue- IF all resorts were built at the same time (which of course they're not) then I'd agree that purchase price would be a fair evaluative tool. Obviously, resorts are built over time, and while many newer resorts may have more amenities or superior build quality to warrant their higher price structure, the very fact that they are newer and built at a time where inflation, etc., increases cost naturally leads to a higher cost structure.

While it is true that resort costs also increase over initial pre-construction pricing, in part due to inflation but to a large extent due to supply and demand, I'm guessing that a new resort built in the same location and the same build quality as one built ten years ago would have a higher cost, especially if the newer resort was still in active sales. The price structure of resorts in active sales also has to reflect the sales cost- all those developer incentives, low cost trips and freebies have to be paid for. So I am not so sure that sales cost accurately reflects resort quality, although it certainly is one barometer.

That's why I suggested Marriott direct rental rates- they already take into account demand, theoretically at least are an accurate reflection of the market, and should reflect resort quality. It also is a system already functional that reflects all of these factors across the board. Whether it is this valuation or another, I hope they choose this type of evaluative  tool which would be more of an objective assessment. Then, as resorts were developed, properties that had better build quality/amenities, etc., would likely rent for relatively more, and could be assigned higher point values based on the real higher value (if any), rather than whatever arbitrary value Marriott sales assigns to the resort so as to entice buyers.

Admittedly, as newer resorts are added I can see the equity in higher point values IF they are truly better- just as people pay more for fancier or better situated hotel accommodations. But just because something is newer doesn't necessarily make it better- sometimes the features of prior locations, or the venue themselves, are sufficient to maintain equal or even higher demand (which would reflect in the price that vacationers are willing to pay rentals for). 

I can only hope that Marriott doesn't see the need to reinvent the wheel, or feel that it is ok to artificially skew the numbers as a sales gimmick. The only current objective parameter that just addresses quality and supply/demand issues that I can think of is actually the system that they already have in place- the retail rental market. If they choose to do so, it would be easy to assess new properties to- if property A rents for X dollars, when property B is introduced, what will it's rental rate be? If it will rent for 10% or 20%, etc., more than X, then its point valuation should reflect a similar percentage. That way, the time factor is eliminated and property valuations will truly be what the market perceives as their true value.


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## SueDonJ

Ah, at last!  Complete agreement between us.     This IS a red-letter day.   

Really, m, we're saying the same thing.  I don't now see Marriott pricing new resorts higher simply because they're newer - it's the higher-quality furnishings and materials that justify the higher prices.  I agree with you that there is potential, though, for them to become greedy as Starwood has and artificially inflate point values of newer resorts.  Hopefully enough owners will recognize it if it happens and be able to beat them back into submission.

Actually, some think that what happened at Crystal Shores and the newest Hawaii development was exactly what you're saying, that they were over-priced simply because they were newer.  As I said, though, having seen Crystal Shores, those prices made sense relative to the other resorts in MVCI's portfolio and the runaway inflated market at the time it was developed.  For example, the table/chairs set on SurfWatch's balconies would retail for approx. $900, say.  At Crystal Shores, we're talking at least $3,000, probably closer to $4,000, considering that it's a table/chairs set of much better quality as well as two cushioned lounges and an ottoman/table.  The whole place is like that - every piece of furniture, every appliance, every plumbing and electrical fixture, etc. is an upgrade.  An obvious upgrade.  Sadly, though, the economy tanked, further development was halted, and who knows what's going to happen now with those properties.  I can't imagine that when the economy recovers Marriott will go right back to the prices that were supported by the formerly-robust economy.  But the inventory and set-up are stipulated in the legal docs.  Hopefully, Marriott hasn't lost so much that it would be more cost-effective for them to walk away with the project unfinished, because that would be a darn shame.  It's a jewel, truly.  Probably it's a similar situation at Maui, but at least that development was part of an existing resort - maybe it can be absorbed easier than a brand new resort like Crystal Shores.


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## m61376

I haven't seen the Marco project so I can't comment. It is interesting, though; we were discussing on our last trip whether there exists a real market for even higher end timeshares- the 80K+ range. Even if the economy hadn't tanked, I am not so sure that there would have been sufficient demand in that location for timeshares at that price, even with those amenities. Of course, the brain trust at Marriott felt there was.

I haven't looked- are the units renting for values commensurate with their sales price? I wonder what rates the market supports, compared to other properties in other locations.


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## SueDonJ

That was my first visit to Marco Island so I can't compare the new stuff there now to what it may have looked like before.  But all up and down the beach we saw new building construction or rehabs, mostly high-rise condos but some obviously vacation rentals, that appeared to be suffering the exact same fate as Marriott's property there - all geared toward a certain demographic, all high-quality, all begun at the apex of a booming economy and probably all now with developers realizing huge losses.  The real estate mags were full of 40-50-60% price reductions in the unfinished buildings.  It drove home the point for us that Marriott was not alone in thinking that the economy at the time of planning would support those pricing structures in that area.

We had the same conversation you did while walking that beach.     That $70K+ price point is a tough market for timeshares, especially in this economy but during a strong one, too.  If folks can afford to sink that much into a single week for a certain vacation lifestyle, presumably they could afford to travel in style in ways other than timesharing and maybe wouldn't want to limit or commit themselves to one resort.  Anyway, I'd agree that the target market for those $70K+ timeshares would have been much more limited than what Marriott had been used to up to the point where the economy tanked.  And now?  All bets are off, I'd guess.

I like your idea of pricing various weeks to see where Crystal Shores fits in.  I just tried the first weeks of June and July with no availability for rental so no prices showed up.  I'll try a few more tomorrow and see where it leads ...


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## m61376

For Crystal Shores a night in May the prices ranged from 537.90 to 625.90, including taxes, a night in August about $90 less per room. Interestingly, a mid December room was as low as 353.90. Christmas week the rooms range from 669.50-757.90, again including taxes. A mid- March room goes for 856.90-911.90.

So, while the amenities there may be ultra plush, and perhaps it would command more money in a different locale like the Caribbean or Hawaii, it's rental rates reflect that Crystal Shores is no more appealing than at least some of the other properties, and at least at certain times less appealing even. Contrast the same night in late December for the same size accommodations at the Aruba Ocean Club, and the price is $1446.12 including taxes; the SC is sold out for that date. The mid May night is 529.20-594 (depending on view) at the SC and in the similar range at the OC, so at certain times of the year Crystal Shores is similar in value However, an August night is 567-631.80 at the SC and over a hundred dollars a night less at Crystal Shores. Rates for mid-March are in the same price range at both locales.

My assumption from this is that Crystal Shores may have remarkably plush amenities, and might command a higher rental rate in a more exotic location, but since rental rates reflect market demand, the property should not command a higher point value just because it is newer and perhaps even has nicer amenities. I think point valuation has to reflect the villa quality and the location, and it is likely that some properties which may not be as nice structurally, still deserve higher point allocations because they are in a more desirable location. Ok- I know this isn't real estate- but the old rule for real estate still applies: "location, location, location...."

BTW, Sue, it's funny that you had a similar conversation about a higher end timeshare market. I kinda feel like you seemed to imply that you did- that there reaches a point that the people who would buy can afford to book suites and villas as they want them and may not want to be bogged down with the hassles and/or if they want a vacation place to frequent will just buy a condo there. While the villas at Marco may be over the top, I am just not sure the market pool cares to spend thousands more for those amenities.


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## JimIg23

I agree with the recent posts about value tied to rental prices and quality.  Although, cost of the TS, regardless of these issues, I think will be a factor.  I think that TSs they are selling for 70k will be more points than one that sells for 40k, regardless of rental rate.  Otherwise, you cant justify the cost.

Trying to look at a positive, one potential benefit (if points and MFs have no home resort) is that you are no longer tied to a resort that is aging and which value goes down significantly.  You may have to add on with a point package (maybe they will allow it?) but it may be worth it if the buy-in is not crazy.  

Another issue will be multiple weeks and EOYs.  Lets say you have 3 EYs and 2 EOYs and converts to points.  Will the owner have 5 separate point accounts or will they be pooled?


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## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ...  My assumption from this is that Crystal Shores may have remarkably plush amenities, and might command a higher rental rate in a more exotic location, but since rental rates reflect market demand, the property should not command a higher point value just because it is newer and perhaps even has nicer amenities. I think point valuation has to reflect the villa quality and the location, and it is likely that some properties which may not be as nice structurally, still deserve higher point allocations because they are in a more desirable location. Ok- I know this isn't real estate- but the old rule for real estate still applies: "location, location, location...."



I'm not surprised at all that Aruba prices are consistently higher; like you say, it's the location.  As well, Aruba's "seasons" don't fluctuate nearly as much as those in Florida and Hilton Head.  It's pretty much a year-round destination, isn't it?

I am surprised, though, that Hilton Head and Marco Island prices are as close as they are.  I wonder if we need to take into consideration that MI has been much more severely depressed than HH in this economy?  HH is pretty much established - of course they're feeling some effects of the overall reduced travel industry, but I think there is a strong base of return visitors who are still visiting (maybe with a few days shaved off their usual week-long stays.)  MI, though, is not established at least as far as we could see, it's more like that area overall has been caught in transition.  I'd expect that when the economy rebounds and the transition is complete, we'll see higher prices there.  Or at least, if the economy hadn't tanked and the transition had been completed, prices would have to be higher to support the influx of developer dollars that we observed.



m61376 said:


> ...  BTW, Sue, it's funny that you had a similar conversation about a higher end timeshare market. I kinda feel like you seemed to imply that you did- that there reaches a point that the people who would buy can afford to book suites and villas as they want them and may not want to be bogged down with the hassles and/or if they want a vacation place to frequent will just buy a condo there. While the villas at Marco may be over the top, I am just not sure the market pool cares to spend thousands more for those amenities.



Definitely.  Crystal Shores and the other MVCI resorts at that price point were perhaps too ambitious even during a robust economy.  The timesharing lifestyle just doesn't seem to fit that group of folks who can afford to absorb that budget hit without financing.  (I'm sure Marriott is perfectly happy to provide financing for anyone who wants to buy a timeshare, but that's our personal benchmark - if we had to finance, we wouldn't buy.)


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## kjd

The area here in and around Marco Island has been in a severe downturn almost bordering on a depression.  The tourist season this year is pretty good under the circumstances.  Early results are that tourism is only down  
.10% compared to last year.  (Which was pretty good considering everything that has happened)

While relatively the same number of winter visitors are here this year they are spending less per person.  The county is basing next year's budget on a 12% decrease in property values for next year.  Two banks on Marco have already failed.  All of this is not good news for the Crystal Shores development which at the moment is at a standstill.

However, the Marco Marriott remains one of the best and most profitable hotels in the Marriott system.  Their $500+ a night room rental during the good economic times made Crystal Shores prices look reasonable.

There is another consideration that affects Marco and possibly Aruba.  I think Marco more-so but most people haven't thought of it in this way.  That is, the strong interest that foreign visitors have in being on the beach.  A lot of Europeans visit Marco every year.  They love the beach and being on an island.  Their money is worth about 50% more than your money.  A $70,000 price tag for a CS timeshare is not the same to them as it is to you.  They come here with their entire family and they spend a lot of money while they are here.  They are good for our economy.

Many of them think they are in paradise because they can't buy at home what they can buy here.  To that extent there are more people than you think who will buy a $70,000 timeshare week.  Marriott hasn't been successful by being foolish.  I'm sure they know the timeshare market better than most.


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## SueDonJ

I never thought about that, kjd, how much foreign visitors might be willing to invest.  Interesting.  Hmmmm.

Everything we saw at Marco Island made me think Marriott wasn't far off the mark, if at all, with the original prices for that area.  It really did appear that timing was everything, and that if the economy had stayed strong CS would have a chance to succeed as planned.  I hope your area rebounds the way it needs to, to support Crystal Shores.  Because it really is a gorgeous resort and I'd love to exchange into there again.  BTW, we checked out the Marriott hotel there, too.  Very nice place.

{edit}  Well, geeze, that sounds selfish, doesn't it?  Of course I hope your area rebounds for all the important right reasons!  Being able to go to Crystal Shores isn't one of those.


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## m61376

My price comparisons were not meant as to whether Marriott was justified in asking the prices they were for the Marco units (obviously, at some point they thought the market would bear it I'd imagine), but as a basis for a theoretical discussion on how point values can or should be assigned (not that we have any real input into it anyway). We had gotten into a discussion on whether newer resorts with more amenities that cost more up front were worth more points; the flip side is that older resorts may be almost as nice, may enjoy a better location adding to their value, and that at least part of the price difference is due to the time factor (and inflation). Adding to purchase cost for older resorts are all the MF's owners have been paying over the years, which included financing refurbishment, so the true "cost" is much higher than the developer pricing. 

The likelihood is that if the same quality structure was built next to a property that was built ten years ago, Marriott would be charging considerably more today because of increased costs of development, including increased marketing fees. Does that make the newer resort worthy of a higher point valuation, especially considering the "new" resort won't be new in six months?

Sue's assessment of the rental prices for the HH properties and Crystal Shores is interesting. If the rental market reflects that valuation of both areas is approximately the same, perhaps due to the more attractive location of the HH properties, which counterbalances the more luxurious accommodations of the Marco property, would it be equitable for Marriott to assign a higher valuation (and thus a higher cost for trading into) the Crystal Shores property?

I am curious what others' thoughts are on this. To me, if the market valuation of the two properties is comparable, then I don't think it would be fair for Marriott to assign a higher point value, which of course would be done in part to stimulate sales. While it may make it attractive to the Marco buyer, that means the HH owner, who owns a unit that the market otherwise equates equivalently, won't be able to trade in like for like (size/length of stay).

I can understand the limitations of a system where all Platinum units are deemed equivalent, all  Gold units, etc., but I'd like to see a system where there is no objective factor which determines how point values are assigned, which reflects real market forces (ie. demand).


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## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... The likelihood is that if the same quality structure was built next to a property that was built ten years ago, Marriott would be charging considerably more today because of increased costs of development, including increased marketing fees. Does that make the newer resort worthy of a higher point valuation, especially considering the "new" resort won't be new in six months?
> 
> Sue's assessment of the rental prices for the HH properties and Crystal Shores is interesting. If the rental market reflects that valuation of both areas is approximately the same, perhaps due to the more attractive location of the HH properties, which counterbalances the more luxurious accommodations of the Marco property, would it be equitable for Marriott to assign a higher valuation (and thus a higher cost for trading into) the Crystal Shores property?
> 
> I am curious what others' thoughts are on this. To me, if the market valuation of the two properties is comparable, then I don't think it would be fair for Marriott to assign a higher point value, which of course would be done in part to stimulate sales. While it may make it attractive to the Marco buyer, that means the HH owner, who owns a unit that the market otherwise equates equivalently, won't be able to trade in like for like (size/length of stay).
> 
> I can understand the limitations of a system where all Platinum units are deemed equivalent, all  Gold units, etc., but I'd like to see a system where there is no objective factor which determines how point values are assigned, which reflects real market forces (ie. demand).



I want to hear other opinions, too, this is all very interesting and not only for how it relates to a possible points exchange system.

But about that, it's still my opinion that demand shouldn't be the only factor for alloting points.  I do think that side-by-side properties which have different quality furnishings and amenities shouldn't be valued the same for exchanges.

As far as Marco Island, I'll be shocked if those weeks are allotted less or equal points than weeks at the established oceanfront resorts.  Somehow the way CS has been impacted to such a large degree by the economy should be part of the equation.  When/if the economy rebounds and the resort/area are completely built out, there's no doubt that it will be a superior product.  Existing HH properties simply won't compare.  Truthfully, if what I own gets me enough points to exchange a week at HH for a week at CS, I'll think those owners are being shortchanged.  (There is another thread about the new Oceana Palms which makes it sound similar to CS - that's another one I would expect to be allotted more points, along with the newer Hawaii development.)


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## Transit

m61376 said:


> My price comparisons were not meant as to whether Marriott was justified in asking the prices they were for the Marco units (obviously, at some point they thought the market would bear it I'd imagine), but as a basis for a theoretical discussion on how point values can or should be assigned (not that we have any real input into it anyway). We had gotten into a discussion on whether newer resorts with more amenities that cost more up front were worth more points; the flip side is that older resorts may be almost as nice, may enjoy a better location adding to their value, and that at least part of the price difference is due to the time factor (and inflation). Adding to purchase cost for older resorts are all the MF's owners have been paying over the years, which included financing refurbishment, so the true "cost" is much higher than the developer pricing.
> 
> The likelihood is that if the same quality structure was built next to a property that was built ten years ago, Marriott would be charging considerably more today because of increased costs of development, including increased marketing fees. Does that make the newer resort worthy of a higher point valuation, especially considering the "new" resort won't be new in six months?
> 
> Sue's assessment of the rental prices for the HH properties and Crystal Shores is interesting. If the rental market reflects that valuation of both areas is approximately the same, perhaps due to the more attractive location of the HH properties, which counterbalances the more luxurious accommodations of the Marco property, would it be equitable for Marriott to assign a higher valuation (and thus a higher cost for trading into) the Crystal Shores property?
> 
> I am curious what others' thoughts are on this. To me, if the market valuation of the two properties is comparable, then I don't think it would be fair for Marriott to assign a higher point value, which of course would be done in part to stimulate sales. While it may make it attractive to the Marco buyer, that means the HH owner, who owns a unit that the market otherwise equates equivalently, won't be able to trade in like for like (size/length of stay).



They may not have to assign a higher point value to this property.They may just need to keep it in line with other top properties.  If Marriott just keeps the points inline with other top Marriott properties they would instantly have access to a steady stream of *proven potential buyers attending owner updates*.Keeping the points inline with other top resorts would allow Crystal Shores to be obtainable to their best customers- Owners.


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## Twinkstarr

SueDonJ said:


> I never thought about that, kjd, how much foreign visitors might be willing to invest.  Interesting.  Hmmmm.
> 
> Everything we saw at Marco Island made me think Marriott wasn't far off the mark, if at all, with the original prices for that area.  It really did appear that timing was everything, and that if the economy had stayed strong CS would have a chance to succeed as planned.  I hope your area rebounds the way it needs to, to support Crystal Shores.  Because it really is a gorgeous resort and I'd love to exchange into there again.  BTW, we checked out the Marriott hotel there, too.  Very nice place.
> 
> {edit}  Well, geeze, that sounds selfish, doesn't it?  Of course I hope your area rebounds for all the important right reasons!  Being able to go to Crystal Shores isn't one of those.



Besides Europeans, Marco Island/Naples is a still a big snowbird location for the I-75 corridor population(and that includes Canadians, who cross over at Windsor/Detroit). The society editor of The Toledo Blade spends a few weeks down there every spring to report on the locals. 

My Marriott salesperson told me of 2 couples from my area(NW Ohio) that went together and bought 4 plat weeks together.


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## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> But about that, it's still my opinion that demand shouldn't be the only factor for allotting points.  I do think that side-by-side properties which have different quality furnishings and amenities shouldn't be valued the same for exchanges.
> 
> As far as Marco Island, I'll be shocked if those weeks are allotted less or equal points than weeks at the established oceanfront resorts.  Somehow the way CS has been impacted to such a large degree by the economy should be part of the equation.  When/if the economy rebounds and the resort/area are completely built out, there's no doubt that it will be a superior product.  Existing HH properties simply won't compare.  Truthfully, if what I own gets me enough points to exchange a week at HH for a week at CS, I'll think those owners are being shortchanged.  (There is another thread about the new Oceana Palms which makes it sound similar to CS - that's another one I would expect to be allotted more points, along with the newer Hawaii development.)


But I'd also expect two side by side properties with different quality amenities and furnishings to be valued differently. I would venture to guess the fair market rentals at Oceana Palms are different from those at Ocean Pointe to reflect this difference, just as A Ritz is priced higher than a Marirott even when they are next to each other. 


The point I was making is that if two comparable properties were erected at different times, just because one may have a higher price tag because it is newer doesn't mean it should command a higher valuation.

Clearly the Marco property enjoys amenities other places do not. But I don't think you can blame the economy for singling out the Marco property. I think Naples hasn't enjoyed the same appeal as other destinations and, while your HH properties may not be as luxurious, they have perhaps more location appeal and the two factors balance each other out, which is reflected in similar rental rates. Marriott needs to base its valuations on market realities- and not what a location may or may not be like if/when the surrounding area becomes a more attractive tourist destination.

Now, if there was a Crystal Shores equivalent at HH, for example, I'd agree that would be a different caliber and should merit a higher evaluation, just as I'd expect Oceana Palms to have a higher valuation, because it is a more luxurious property sharing the same basic location as Ocean Pointe, but not just because it costs more. Sometimes location balances out or even trumps the "wow" factor.


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## SueDonJ

I guess I'm not saying this clearly enough.  IMO, Marco Island and Hilton Head are comparable areas, and, Crystal Shores and the Hilton Head resorts are not comparable properties.  But because the economy is currently impacting Marco Island to a greater extent than Hilton Head, Marriott is not able to currently command higher rental rates for the superior product at MI.  This is why I don't think only demand or rental rates should be considered, because then you're allowing a temporary outside influence to determine a permanent value.

If Marco Island was as completely established as Hilton Head and the two areas still garnered similar rental rates for Marriott resorts despite Crystal Shores' superior product, then I would agree with you that Crystal Shores' higher price should not by itself translate to higher point values.  My thought is that when the halted development all over Marco Island is completed, Marriott will then be able to demand higher rates - the product is simply that much superior.  So, if a points system is figured out before that completion, somehow consideration must be made to what the finished product was expected to be, and will be at some point.

I guess simply, Naples is in transition right now but will be in demand when the economy rebounds.  I love Hilton Head, it's my favorite place in the world.  I don't feel the same about Marco Island.  But I still can't deny that Marco Island's location is pretty much equal to Hilton Head's as far as beach access, restaurants, area activities, etc.  MI beats HH for climate, hands down.  The similarity in rental rates has to be because of the not-fully-developed/established differences between the two areas, and that's temporary.


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## Transit

SueDonJ said:


> I guess I'm not saying this clearly enough.  IMO, Marco Island and Hilton Head are comparable areas, and, Crystal Shores and the Hilton Head resorts are not comparable properties.



 These properties are not comparable areas at all. Marco will be at full occupancy year round and is a much more upscale property. HHI's real demand is summer plat season only.


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## bobcat

Transit said:


> These properties are not comparable areas at all. Marco will be at full occupancy year round and is a much more upscale property. HHI's real demand is summer plat season only.



I know that Sept. and Oct. on HH are also busy. People who are retired and people who like that season. Do not count out these two months.


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## Whirl

SueDonJ said:


> I want to hear other opinions, too, this is all very interesting and not only for how it relates to a possible points exchange system.
> 
> But about that, it's still my opinion that demand shouldn't be the only factor for alloting points.  I do think that side-by-side properties which have different quality furnishings and amenities shouldn't be valued the same for exchanges.
> 
> As far as Marco Island, I'll be shocked if those weeks are allotted less or equal points than weeks at the established oceanfront resorts.  Somehow the way CS has been impacted to such a large degree by the economy should be part of the equation.  When/if the economy rebounds and the resort/area are completely built out, there's no doubt that it will be a superior product.  Existing HH properties simply won't compare.  Truthfully, if what I own gets me enough points to exchange a week at HH for a week at CS, I'll think those owners are being shortchanged.  (There is another thread about the new Oceana Palms which makes it sound similar to CS - that's another one I would expect to be allotted more points, along with the newer Hawaii development.)



I completely agree. I own  few Hilton Head MArriott weeks and we are going to CS this summer. WE visited MArco Island last summer  and stayed at the Marriott hotel. We absolutely loved it there and quite frankly, I think we would be ecstatic to pull off an exchange EVERY year for our Barony week. I am hoping we enjoy CS as much as the hotel. We had beautiful gulf front rooms and the on site amenties are great....not sure we will like CS as much as the hotel because of the lack of room service and on site restaurants, but we will see.  My kids are small, so the walk down to the hotel along the beach is pretty major. IT would be nice if you could charge hotel purchases to your room at CS ( any chance that is the case?).


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## SueDonJ

Transit said:


> These properties are not comparable areas at all. Marco will be at full occupancy year round and is a much more upscale property. HHI's real demand is summer plat season only.



Um, I think that's what I said, didn't I?  The properties are not comparable, Crystal Shores is a "superior product" to any Marriott timeshare on Hilton Head; and Marco Island's climate beats HH's, "hands down."  For purposes of this thread topic, I'm convinced that Crystal Shores weeks should be allotted more exchange points than any Hilton Head weeks.

But when it comes to quality beaches, local attractions, restaurants and activities, the areas/locations are equal.  Many folks think that Hilton Head is enjoyable any time, not just during the hot and humid Platinum season.


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## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> I guess I'm not saying this clearly enough.  IMO, Marco Island and Hilton Head are comparable areas, and, Crystal Shores and the Hilton Head resorts are not comparable properties.  But because the economy is currently impacting Marco Island to a greater extent than Hilton Head, Marriott is not able to currently command higher rental rates for the superior product at MI.  This is why I don't think only demand or rental rates should be considered, because then you're allowing a temporary outside influence to determine a permanent value.
> 
> If Marco Island was as completely established as Hilton Head and the two areas still garnered similar rental rates for Marriott resorts despite Crystal Shores' superior product, then I would agree with you that Crystal Shores' higher price should not by itself translate to higher point values.  My thought is that when the halted development all over Marco Island is completed, Marriott will then be able to demand higher rates - the product is simply that much superior.  So, if a points system is figured out before that completion, somehow consideration must be made to what the finished product was expected to be, and will be at some point.
> 
> I guess simply, Naples is in transition right now but will be in demand when the economy rebounds.  I love Hilton Head, it's my favorite place in the world.  I don't feel the same about Marco Island.  But I still can't deny that Marco Island's location is pretty much equal to Hilton Head's as far as beach access, restaurants, area activities, etc.  MI beats HH for climate, hands down.  The similarity in rental rates has to be because of the not-fully-developed/established differences between the two areas, and that's temporary.



Admittedly I am not that familiar with the areas as you are, but my impression from talking to friends (although I could be wrong) is that Naples was not the vacation destination that HH was even before the recession, so I am not sure that the lesser demand for the area is just a byproduct of the economy affecting Marco more than HH. Especially since it is not an outside influence that is unique to the area (as, for example, a hurricane or other event) that would naturally impact one area over another, I'm not sure it is fair to evaluate Marco based on the possibility at some point in the future the location will develop into a superior vacation destination.

I think resorts should be evaluated as to their quality and the appeal of the surrounding areas. Location plays a very large part in the demand formula. If, as another poster suggested, Marco is a high demand year around destination then its rental prices should reflect it. Coupled with its superior furnishings, it should be able to command one of the highest rental rates in the Marriott system. But it doesn't despite its amenities. Other locations clearly have a stronger destination appeal, and people prefer other locations. In reality, rental rates reflect the overall market; they reflect the demand of a particular property, taking into account its amenities and its location. 

To be a crown jewel in the portfolio the resort has to have both quality and location, otherwise one may simply balance the other. Just as hotel rental prices reflect the current market and are not set on an idealized vision of the property, so should timeshare valuations. They should not reflect what might be IF at some point it the future the area revitalizes (in which case adjustments can be made as appropriate), but what is today.

Perhaps a bit simplistic- but when you buy a house you may pay a lot more for the same model in a neighboring town, or even more for a smaller house in that location. But you pay the current market rate, based on the current property values- not because one area may have suffered more in this economy and not based on the potential of the neighborhood to revitalize. Some people are thrilled to buy the best house in an area and others prefer to live in a smaller home in a different neighborhood. But, in reality, the price- the market- reflects the property value, and reflects a conglomeration of many different people's perspectives.

So- while you and others as well may feel that Marco and HH are equivalent areas, and since the Marco property seems to be indisputably superior, if enough people felt that the areas were comparable I would think that the market (ie. prices people are willing to spend to stay there) would be higher and not comparable as you said they were.



Personally, if Marriott develops a program I hope the values it sets reflects real market values and not arbitrary values or wishful thinking. The reality is that certain areas will always have a higher demand and they may need to build resorts at other locations with a lot more bells and whistles just to be comparable.


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## SueDonJ

Whirl said:


> I completely agree. I own  few Hilton Head MArriott weeks and we are going to CS this summer. WE visited MArco Island last summer  and stayed at the Marriott hotel. We absolutely loved it there and quite frankly, I think we would be ecstatic to pull off an exchange EVERY year for our Barony week. I am hoping we enjoy CS as much as the hotel. We had beautiful gulf front rooms and the on site amenties are great....not sure we will like CS as much as the hotel because of the lack of room service and on site restaurants, but we will see.  My kids are small, so the walk down to the hotel along the beach is pretty major. IT would be nice if you could charge hotel purchases to your room at CS ( any chance that is the case?).



Oh, no, and that was disappointing.  I was hoping to be able to charge our room for a pedicure at the hotel spa and a dinner at the hotel but no dice, although we did get the bonus points for using our Marriott VISA at the hotel.  It just makes it easier to sign the slips as you do things and see it all in one statement.

We ate at and liked CS's one restaurant, Stilts; it was pretty good considering it was on property.  (If anyone is interested in more details about Crystal Shores, this thread has some pics and notes from our trip last November.)


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## Transit

bobcat said:


> I know that Sept. and Oct. on HH are also busy. People who are retired and people who like that season. Do not count out these two months.



For speculation of what a points chart may look like Sept /Oct would most likely be less points Than peak summer weeks.There will be some real  bargain point weeks at those HHI resorts.


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## SueDonJ

m, I think what you're missing is that Marco Island was in transition to become a superior beach vacation destination when the economy tanked.  Developers were pouring money into the place like crazy, many more than just Marriott, and it is as if a "perfect storm" did hit at exactly the wrong moment.  Although Naples was a sleepy old-style Florida destination at one time, that was changing.  It's my feeling that the transition was interrupted but it will continue at some point when the economy rebounds, and then Marco Island will be a completely different place than what it used to be.

I understand what you're saying about the economy affecting everything, but circumstances dictated that some places were hit harder than others.  Marco Island is one of those places.  It would be unfair for Marriott to not acknowledge that in a points exchange system.

{edit}  Take your house example and current market rates - it's as you say, home prices are determined by the current market conditions and values.  If Crystal Shores was completed and the area wasn't in transition, then as I said before I would agree that the rental rates could be a valid determining factor to allot similar points to CS and the HH resorts despite the superior product at Crystal Shores.  But unlike a house price which fluctuates with the market upon each sale (or refinancing,) I'm guessing that Marriott will be looking to allot exchange point values on a permanent basis.  But the rental rates at Crystal Shores cannot be thought of as permanent until the transition period is complete.  That why I think that what is expected to happen in the area as soon as the market rebounds should be considered.


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## SueDonJ

Transit said:


> For speculation of what a points chart may look like Sept /Oct would most likely be less points Than peak summer weeks.There will be some real  bargain point weeks at those HHI resorts.



Oh, I agree, the Hilton Head April/May/Sept/Oct Gold weeks should be allotted less points than the June/Jul/Aug Platinum weeks.  I don't know, though, if you could call Gold weeks "bargains" - maybe the Silver and Bronze?


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## bobcat

SueDonJ said:


> Oh, I agree, the Hilton Head April/May/Sept/Oct Gold weeks should be allotted less points than the June/Jul/Aug Platinum weeks.  I don't know, though, if you could call Gold weeks "bargains" - maybe the Silver and Bronze?



We are very lucky. We live on the Southern Coast. There are more things to do here then any timeshare we ever stayed at.  So we do not need a Platium week. We have Gold. I still say, we will keep our Gold Barony and use it every year Labor Day week as we have in the past.


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## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> I understand what you're saying about the economy affecting everything, but circumstances dictated that some places were hit harder than others.  Marco Island is one of those places.  It would be unfair for Marriott to not acknowledge that in a points exchange system.



The only problem is that you are assuming that the area will rebound in a reasonable time period and that the resort will reflect the presumed demand. I don't think any valuations should be placed on what might have been or what should be in the future, but on the here and now. Valuations can always be adjusted in the future if the situation dictates it.

Some areas will likely command higher values (or lower) just because of where they are located. Tropical resorts (Hawaii, Caribbean, etc.) command high prices just because of where they are, and for these destinations the location rather than the property amenities may dictate the valuation. For other perhaps "lesser" locations, the resort quality may have a larger factor in the valuation. Certainly I can understand where adjacent properties like Ocean Pointe/Oceana Plams and the new Maui villas/original Maui Ocean Club will command different valuations, as I'd expect the market rental rates would reflect.

We were on a roll agreeing  - I guess we'll have to disagree here, because I don't think it is fair for Marriott to assign point valuations based on what their perception is; frankly, I think the only fair way to assign points would be to assign them according to an objective reality, which is why I was pontificating that the rental rates would be a market reflection. If Marriott feels free to randomly assign values as to what they'd like them to be, we embark on a slippery slope, with the likelihood of property inflation just to enhance sales. I think that IF they create a fair system that accurately reflects market realities it will go a long way to engender consumer confidence; that would make for a very successful product.


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## SueDonJ

Maybe we can compromise.  If Marriott agrees to revisit Crystal Shores' point values when the transition is complete, then I might be okay with them at the roll-out not allotting full point values commensurate with the expected product.

Hmmmm.  Except that the folks who bought in paid a huge chunk of money, and their exchange value should be somewhat equal to the investment Marriott determined was necessary for the product.  And Marriott's pricing structure at the time wasn't in place simply because Crystal Shores was a new resort; it was supported by the product and area.  That's apparent when you see the similar development all up and down the beach.

This is the reason that Marriott pays somebody other than us the big bucks to figure out this stuff.  They know exactly how much they've sunk into the project and what it's going to take to turn things around.  And it's for sure that Crystal Shores owners are voicing their opinions to them - I would.  Man, those employees must go home every day with gigantic headaches.


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## SueDonJ

bobcat said:


> We are very lucky. We live on the Southern Coast. There are more things to do here then any timeshare we ever stayed at.  So we do not need a Platium week. We have Gold. I still say, we will keep our Gold Barony and use it every year Labor Day week as we have in the past.



Yep, we love the seasons that we get at Hilton Head with our Gold Barony and SW weeks; we bought the Plat SW week to use primarily as the anchor for reserving Memorial Day at the 13-month mark, and because it's a stronger trader for exchanges.


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## Steve

*A bit about Naples...*



m61376 said:


> Admittedly I am not that familiar with the areas as you are, but my impression from talking to friends (although I could be wrong) is that Naples was not the vacation destination that HH was even before the recession, so I am not sure that the lesser demand for the area is just a byproduct of the economy affecting Marco more than HH.



I'm not sure where the impression that the Naples area is not a highly desirable vacation destination comes from.  I love Hilton Head Island, but Naples is actually more upscale...and it is considered an extremely desirable place to both live and vacation.  The fact there are not one, but TWO Ritz Carlton hotels in Naples should give some indication of the area's appeal:

http://www.ritzcarlton.com/en/Properties/Naples/Default.htm

http://www.ritzcarlton.com/en/Properties/NaplesGolf/Default.htm

There is also a very elegant Hyatt:

http://coconutpoint.hyatt.com/hyatt/hotels/index.jsp

And a Hyatt timeshare:

http://hyattcoconutplantation.hyatt.com/hyatt/hotels/index.jsp

Naples also offers more sophisticated shopping, dining, and galleries than you will find at Hilton Head Island.  While Marco Island per se may not offer all that Hilton Head does, the Naples area is pretty classy.

Steve


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## m61376

And I also think it is clear that Marriott made a mistake when they priced Marco. Perhaps they made it nicer than the area would command; a similarly appointed resort may have done much better in a different locale. They may be smart, but they're not infallible. They misjudged the market. Fletch alluded to that when he stated that they'd have to rely on a points system to sell there. That's why even at a 35% discount they still lie fallow (and I do feel sorry for the original purchasers).

The problem, as I see it, with sanctioning Marriott to allot points based on the prices they set for the resort is twofold- you can't really compare resorts prices of resorts built during different time frames and secondly, the potential is there for Marriott just to assign higher point values to enhance sales. 

If I own a Platinum week somewhere, I want to be able to trade into an equivalent property for the same size unit and the same number of days. Just because something is newer doesn't mean it is better or more desirable. It shouldn't be put out of my reach for exchange just because Marriott artificially enhanced its price tag. If I am giving up something with a certain value/demand, then I should be able to redeem it for something of comparable value. The fairest way to ascertain value is what a reasonable and average person would pay, and I suggest that the market rental rates already in place reflect that. So, if Marriott chooses to charge $500 per night for the property I am trading in, then I should be able to trade into a property that costs $3500- whether that means I get 7 days in a $500 per night property or 14 days in a $250 per night, or want to live it up for 4 days in an $875 per night resort. I wouldn't mind getting fewer days if I was truly getting something better (but better has to mean of a higher value- better amenities and/or location such that the total value was higher). Then I'd feel like a got an equitable trade and would embrace the system. I think if it was developed and sold that way even owners of lesser weeks who will likely be more resistant to the change would see the value and sense of such a program, IF such a program was introduced.

Steve- I didn't mean to infer that it wasn't a nice area. What I was saying is that if the villas are superior and if they command the same prices as the HH ones (as Sue indicated they did), then it would follow that the area perhaps wasn't quite as desirable, since hotel rates reflect quality and location. The area may be beautiful, but it stands to reason that if the resort is that much nicer it would command a higher price if the destination was at least as desirable. A lot of factors enter into vacation appeal; of course, quality is one, but location and access are also important factors that may make one area preferable over another.


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## Steve

m61376 said:


> Steve- I didn't mean to infer that it wasn't a nice area. What I was saying is that if the villas are superior and if they command the same prices as the HH ones (as Sue indicated they did), then it would follow that the area perhaps wasn't quite as desirable, since hotel rates reflect quality and location. The area may be beautiful, but it stands to reason that if the resort is that much nicer it would command a higher price if the destination was at least as desirable. A lot of factors enter into vacation appeal; of course, quality is one, but location and access are also important factors that may make one area preferable over another.



If Hilton Head Island is a superior area, then how do you account for the fact that rates at the Marriott hotel on Marco Island are far higher than rates at the Marriott hotel on Hilton Head Island?

Perhaps this is just a timeshare phenomenon.  Marriott timeshares are very well known on HHI.  It is where Marriott first entered the timeshare market in 1984, and Marriott is extremely well established in the timeshare market there.  In contrast, Marriott's Crystal Shores is new, and Marriott is not well known for timeshares in Southwest Florida.  This may, or may not, play a role in the lesser popularity of Crystal Shores compared with the Hilton Head Marriott timeshares.  But it is significant.

Or perhaps Sue is simply incorrect when she states that the rates at Crystal Shores and Hilton Head are about the same.  Checking dates in April on www.marriott.com, I find Crystal Shores commanding $689.00 per night versus $446.00 at Grande Ocean.  Oops.

Finally, as you can see from the links I provided...if you take the time to look at them...the Naples area has far grander hotels than anything on HHI.  Naples is considered a truly first class vacation destination not only here in the USA...but also in Europe.  I think you need to learn more about the Naples area before passing judgment just based on the supposed rental rates (which might not even be correct) at Marriott's Crystal Shores.  

Steve


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## SueDonJ

I'm getting confused because the rates I was comparing are the ones you found, m, in this post here.  Remember?  I tried to contrast them all for the first weeks of June and July but didn't come up with rates because there was no availability.

Steve, I am surprised that there's not more of a discrepancy between Marriott's Hilton Head and Marco Island timeshare rental rates because I think Marco should be higher!  Crystal Shores is a higher-quality product and Marco Island is more upscale than Hilton Head, which is why I believe that all the development money poured into the place will pay off when the economy turns around.  Based on what we saw, Marriott didn't overprice Crystal Shores but it's definitely been impacted by this economy.

I might be leaving the impression that the place is a ghost town now and things are boarded up?  I dunno.     That's not how it is, though - most of the buildings all along the beach are finished, but going by the real estate mags the new/rehabbed condo units haven't sold yet.  And of course, Marriott's timeshare resort is only complete through Phase 1.  Everything else - the restaurants and shopping, etc. are open for business.


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## m61376

I compared the rates for Crystal Shores to Aruba, assuming they were both desirable locations with perhaps the Caribbean destination having more location appeal and Marco more "wow" factor to the units themselves, and I tried to compare several time frames. I never compared the prices to HH. If, as Steve posted, the rates are different for perhaps a lot of the year (maybe the time frame Sue looked at was higher in HH than usual- I don't know- as I said, I was basing my assumption of equivalence based on the posts that they were similar in rates; it appears that Marco's rates drop over the summer, at the time when I'd assume HH's are the highest, and maybe that's what caused the confusion), then it would make sense that the amenities of the resort is what commands the higher price point. The 446 versus 689 rates you posted for an April week are very significantly different, and certainly indicate a more desirable product.

I did not mean to malign Marco as a destination. And I was really just picking HH as a popular high demand location for comparison. My point was, and still is- and, actually, Steve, if the price points differ and Sue made a mistake when she thought they were similar overall, it illustrates the point I was trying to make- that the overall market for demand is generally reflected in the market rental rates. Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them, which is a combination of both location and resort construction/amenities, and the only way to objectively ascertain and assign value is to use some objective criteria. 

I'd welcome a system where the point values were set based on something real- of course, how nice a villa is a biggie (just as a Ritz commands a higher rental than a Marriott everything else being equal), but location and designation demand are big factors as well (which is why the same hotel, or the same villa, with exactly the same amenities may command far different prices at different locations or at different times of the year).

Of course, Marriott will assign points based on the way they want to assign them, and they will likely reflect their desire to promote sales in particular areas. That's a potential pitfall when developers embark on a points system; it can be unfairly manipulated, as Starwood has done in the past. IF they take the high road and set points according to a measurable demand factor (which is why I'm harping on rental rates, because that's one that's already in place and presumably accurately reflects real demand for both the area and the property in the area), they would have, in my opinion, a very attractive program. If the perception is that people truly are getting their money's worth- and, in you example, that might mean trading 7 days in that Aprill HH week for 4 or 5 days in a Marco week. Points in a trading system are in lieu of currency, and their exchange rate should be similar.


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## kjd

This is a real interesting discussion about the relative value of points and comparing one area to another.  I find myself agreeing with posts that seem to contradict one another.  

It is my impression when looking at point systems (Hyatt, Hilton, Starwood) that they have a built-in system of equity.  Hyatt for example, simply requires more points to stay in the more expensive locations and therefore your initial point purchase costs you more.  I could be wrong but that what it looks like to me.

As far as the issue of Crystal Shores and Hilton Head goes I think the two areas are alike in some respects but not in total.  A major difference is that Naples/Marco Island is below the sub-tropical line.  That means there are no traditional seasons like winter and spring etc.  We have only two seasons: wet and dry.  Hilton Head has four seasons and therefore is designated accordingly by Marriott, as platinum, gold, silver and bronze.

As previously mentioned CS has a better climate for longer stretches of the year.  February is generally considered as the best climatic month but I think November may be just as good if not better.  Certainly, that's been the case this year.  That should result in a longer platinum season which gives CS owners and other Marriott owners more availability during high seasons.  Hence, another reason for a higher buy-in price for CS owners who rightfully should also enjoy more trading power.  I'm not sure that CS owners do with I.I.'s present trading system.

There is no question that Naples/Marco Island has been one of the hardest hit areas in the country in this recession.  Unemployment is around 12% only because many without work have left the area.  Otherwise it would be higher.  We simply are not a diversified economy with only tourism, agriculture and construction as our main sources of jobs.  However, don't feel sorry for us because this area is far from being depressed.  Maybe we can get the Cubs to move here from Arizona.

As mentioned in an earlier post we are one of the only places in the US that has two Ritz-Carltons.  We have the most millionaires in Florida living here. (Passed up Palm Beach several years ago).   The most expensive single family home in this area sold for $46,000,000 and there is one presently on the market for $60,000,000.  Naples airport has as many private jets flying in and out of it as anywhere.

I think that when Marriott bought the old Raddison property they paid a price at the top of the market.  Obviously, they crunched the numbers and thought that the original CS prices were justified.  The timeshare market everywhere has changed and Marriott needs to re-adjust their pricing.  That said, it is my feeling that CS will still command one of the highest prices within the Marriott brand.  In the future if sales are still slow CS may morph itself into a "boutique resort".  The consequences of that is something to think about.


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## MOXJO7282

I'm familar with Marco Island(BIL owns a condo, engaged there), Hilton Head (specifically Grand Ocean and Sea Pines nature preserves), and Naples(close friend has lived there many years, visited 2 times) I would say the difference in price relates to the supply side of the equation and not which is how much nicer than the other.

All have premium attributes in my book, but IMHO Naples and Marco Island have a smaller supply than overbuilt HHI, so I think that is a big part of it.

Personally as a guy with a young family from the northeast, I'd go GO at HHI, Marco Island and Naples.

GO with the great beach location and proximity to the Sea Pines nature preserve is just a special place for us. Marco Island has nice beaches but not as nice as GO IMHO, and there isn't too much else to do.

Naples is very nice. Some spots super highend and high brow as well, so that isn't a place a young family would think of first as a fun vacation spot.


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## SueDonJ

Oh what a gigantic dopeslap I need!     I looked at "SC" in m's post about eight times and thought "South Carolina" every time.    

So here's some comps using Crystal Shores and Grande Ocean (the only HH resort available all four dates):

3/24-25, 2BR, Platinum CS, Silver HH
CS ~ $649-$729
GO ~ $310-$322

4/21-22, 2BR, Platinum CS, Gold HH
CS ~ $489-$569
GO ~ $405-$417

6/9-10, 2BR, Gold CS, Platinum HH
CS ~ $489 (only available, no ocean view)
GO ~ $450 - $462

8/4-5, 2BR, Gold CS, Platinum HH
CS ~ $409-$439
GO ~ $495-$507

and for the two hotels (MI Marriott Resort and Spa and HH Marriott Beach Resort, Golf Club & Spa,) both Cat6 for Marriott Rewards, lowest price for 1K/2DBL:

3/24-25 ~ MI $469 and HH $209

4/21-22 ~ MI $359 and HH $209

6/9-10 ~ MI $279 and HH $279

8/4-5 ~ MI $279 and HH $279

When you take seasons into consideration, with the resorts it looks like CS is valued a little bit higher but still not as much higher as I would expect.  I really think it's because of how much more Hilton Head is established, both like Steve says as an MVCI base as well as the transitional aspect of Marco Island.

We stayed at the HH hotel this past December and visited the MI one in November.  From what we saw, I'd say both are completely established so these hotel numbers do make sense.  MI is, again, a superior product to HH's, June and August are low season at MI and high at HH, so that should balance out to equal rates the way it does.  The large discrepancy during the other two months reflects MI's spring high demand, again makes sense.

None of this has changed my mind.  Crystal Shores was perhaps doomed to slow sales because the demographic for that price point in a timeshare should be a smaller target group than the traditional Marriott customer.  But the pricing structure did make sense based on the overall area and the development money being poured in all over, and the resort and unit design plans.  The fact that development began at the height of a booming economy and was suspended in the following recession should be a factor when considering an exchange points value there, I'm convinced of that.  When the economy rebounds it will be a superior product to anything on Hilton Head in an area that offers a longer beach vacation time period than Hilton Head, even without further development.  What's there is only Phase 1 but even if the other two buildings and one pool are not completed, what is in place offers a complete vacation experience to the owners who bought in at a price point that made sense at the time.  That price point should be a factor for future exchanges.  Simply, we thought when we exchanged a 3BR high-quality HH unit for a 2BR CS unit, we got a deal.  I don't expect that exchange to be available to us every year.

And now let's all have a final say about CS and be done with it.  Who knows how much more I'll screw up responding to anything that any of you DON'T write.     :hysterical:


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## SueDonJ

I'm sorry, one more thing about Crystal Shores and then I promise I'll be done with it.  It's a Eureka! moment, a day late and a dollar short.   

I keep thinking, "why is Marriott renting those so cheaply, when the hotel rates just down the beach appear to be supported even though the area is affected by the economy?"  And bam!, it hit me.  The rental rates are introductory/promotional to get people in the door to see the product.  Those rates aren't reflective of what Marriott thinks the product value is or what the demand is.

They NEED to sell those units.  Their investment is losing money every day.  Not only that, they're incurring fees for the developer inventory they're holding.  But it's Marketing 101 (I think) - they can't sell them if people don't see them.  Sales were slow to begin with because of the limited target demographic and then all heck broke loose with the economy, and sales slowed further to the point where Marriott closed the onsite sales center.  So how could they generate customer traffic and any possible revenue?  Get people in the door with discount rental rates!

There, that's the eureka moment, and another reason why I think the rental pricing there is temporary and should not be used as a barometer of how many exchange points should be allotted in a new system (if blah blah blah...)


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## pianodinosaur

SueDonJ:

A Eureka moment is a Eureka moment no matter what the time!!  Good thinking.


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## vacationmama

I think Marriott must be asleep at the switch to think that in a time when people are having trouble paying for food on the table and their mortgages that this is a time to roll out a program where we shall have to pay for a program that most don't want and certainly don't want to be forced to pay for to exchange what has worked for us all for so long. Am I nuts to think this way? How many will stay with II out of financial necessity and how many will feel compelled to join something just to use a property they paid mightily for in the first place?


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## JimIg23

I would be surprised if this flies if the buyin price is high. Direct or resale, in these times alot of people cant spend the money. Low or no buyin costs, if it is good people will join and Marriott gets the yearly trade fee for alot more people.


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## PerryM

*Here is how the Marriott Owner Internal Exchange System should work..*

I thought of you guys tonight while on another website www.itravex.com - this is a website owned by TripAdvisor and would work great for Marriott owners.

Basically members deposit weeks into iTravex and get Points and you then go shopping with those Points for other places to vacation at.  Instead of $1 you use 1 Point.  You don't have to deposit first you can shop first, see if the owner is interested in depositing the week and find out how many Points are needed before you deposit your week(s).  Marriott already knows what the rent is for every day and unit in their system.

Marriott could implement this in 1 man month and have this system up and running 4 years ago if they wanted.  This is not rocket science and what Marriott wants to do is done by dozens of companies right now.

Anyway, thought you would want to see what Marriott could have been doing for 4 years instead of scaring the daylights out of their members.

Catch you guys later....


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## hipslo

*New "Portfolio" Sales Gallery at sold out resort - Precursor to Points?*

Marriott Mountainside has been sold out for some time.  I have owned there for 4 years now, and there has not been an on-site sales office during any of that period.  A year or so ago, the sales office on Main Street in Park City closed.  

Today, I received in the mail the meeting minutes from the Jan 26, 2010 Board meeting.  One item that piqued my curiosity was a reference to a discussion by the general manager of "a potential new Portfolio Sales Gallery operated by Marriott Ownership Resorts Inc inside the resort".  No further details were given.

Anyone care to guess what they are likely to be trying to sell?   Since they don't have any units left at Mountainside to sell?


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## bobcat

hipslo said:


> Marriott Mountainside has been sold out for some time.  I have owned there for 4 years now, and there has not been an on-site sales office during any of that period.  A year or so ago, the sales office on Main Street in Park City closed.
> 
> Today, I received in the mail the meeting minutes from the Jan 26, 2010 Board meeting.  One item that piqued my curiosity was a reference to a discussion by the general manager of "a potential new Portfolio Sales Gallery operated by Marriott Ownership Resorts Inc inside the resort".  No further details were given.
> 
> Anyone care to guess what they are likely to be trying to sell?   Since they don't have any units left at Mountainside to sell?



Points,let this thread has stated.


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## DanCali

hipslo said:


> Marriott Mountainside has been sold out for some time.  I have owned there for 4 years now, and there has not been an on-site sales office during any of that period.  A year or so ago, the sales office on Main Street in Park City closed.
> 
> Today, I received in the mail the meeting minutes from the Jan 26, 2010 Board meeting.  One item that piqued my curiosity was a reference to a discussion by the general manager of "a potential new Portfolio Sales Gallery operated by Marriott Ownership Resorts Inc inside the resort".  No further details were given.
> 
> Anyone care to guess what they are likely to be trying to sell?   Since they don't have any units left at Mountainside to sell?



IMO the title of this thread totally misrepresents what the last 700 or so posts have been discussing... 

Perhaps it's time to let this thread go and open a new one titled "More speculation about an unconfirmed potential new points system?"

No offense to anyone. I'm all for free speech but I shudder whenever I see the title of this thread, especially since this is all based on rumors and speculation that have been going on for years...


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## hipslo

DanCali said:


> IMO the title of this thread totally misrepresents what the last 700 or so posts have been discussing...
> 
> Perhaps it's time to let this thread go and open a new one titled "More speculation about an unconfirmed potential new points system?"
> 
> No offense to anyone. I'm all for free speech but I shudder whenever I see the title of this thread, especially since this is all based on rumors and speculation that have been going on for years...




i guess my post (the 767th on this thread) is the proverbial straw the broke the camel's back for you.  

for me, regardless of the name of this thread, I have come to view it as the official "points speculation" thread, though perhaps it has been unfortunately named.  for those interested/ inclined to speculate, it seemed to me that the formally announced, coming opening of a sales office in a resort that has been sold out for years was worthy of note.  

since this is as you point out already the "points speculation" thread, after 766 other posts on the topic, I didnt see the need to start a new thread.


----------



## GTLINZ

I am not a Mariott owner but have been considering purchasing another timeshare (please do not solicit) and doing research. This may have already been mentioned in this incredibly long thread but I heard that what Mariott is doing is pooling the hard to move gold and silver inventory and packaging it as points. The problem is that unless Mariott can "convince" enough platinum owners to join this effort that there will be more owners with points and very little prime inventory either available or traded for exchange. I understand why they would get creative to move this inventory and it seems to me that it will just plain make the competition more fierce to use points if they are able to move a lot of this inventory.  Conversely, it will bring in folks to pay MFs. You guys know your system and can debate this but this rumor sure makes sense to me.


----------



## dioxide45

GTLINZ said:


> but I heard that what Mariott is doing is pooling the hard to move gold and silver inventory and packaging it as points.



Perhaps you heard wrong, Marriott isn't doing anything... Yet, if ever.


----------



## timeos2

*Weasel facts can often have a sliver of basic truth - enough to impact you*



dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps you heard wrong, Marriott isn't doing anything... Yet, if ever.



Tick tock. June is getting close. 

Marriott is in the timeshare business primarily to sell although they also make nice money, too much IMO, running the resorts they never want to give up control over. So right now selling weeks - especially extremely high priced timeshare weeks - is very tough going. So a new plan to SELL not only to new buyers but as a real option with real money to existing owners has to look really really good to them.  Do you think they won't pull the trigger and roll out a program to MAKE MORE SALES now?  I wouldn't bet against it. If it is anywhere near ready to go they will unveil it and ASAP.  The wait is nearly over OR it never has and never will exist. Far too many rumors and well informed "leaks" to say it doesn't exist so it will be reality very soon.  Even a weasel can be right on occasion and many have talked up this occurring.


----------



## DanCali

timeos2 said:


> Do you think they won't pull the trigger and roll out a program to MAKE MORE SALES now?  I wouldn't bet against it.



If they have any long term vision - they won't pull the trigger on such a drastic change.

I've mentioned this a couple of hundred posts ago but IMO there is no way a points system can be launched into a very successful existing weeks system and keep even half of the owners happy. I'm sure MVCI head of sales and whoever report to him want it, but hopefully the people above them realize this could be a disaster for MVCI if happy, loyal and affluent owners become miserable owners. With half a million owners, it is about much more than sales at this point.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current system. I just recently purchased 2 weeks and everything went smoothly with the purchase. I read the post that the #1 complaint from owners is II but I already traded one of my 2010 weeks for week 7 in 2011 at Waiohai - I thought it was pretty close to "like for like" and it got confirmed in less than 3 days! I think it's great that many of the best weeks are available for exchanges - this totally beats the Starwood points system where I kept getting "no availability" for Harborside trades when the window opened at 8 months out and finally settled on a less desireable week in a small 500 sq ft 1 BR. So far I am even more pleased with MVCI than I expected to be!


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> ... There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current system. ...



That's a matter of opinion, isn't it?  According to Fletch (an insider, remember) the number one complaint from owners is II's system.  It's great that you're happy with your exchanges - you're one of the lucky ones.  I've been satisfied so far, too, but that's only because I knew from the beginning that "like for like" wouldn't be possible most of the time.  If they can roll out a new exchange system that gives me and others like me value equal to what we're depositing, then probably we'll be all ears.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> probably we'll be all ears.



IF they come up with a points system that's exactly what they would be couning on. Nobody will sell the pitfalls... Whatever they sell you on will sound super attractive: "Trade your Platinum week for 10 summer days in Gold season in the Carribean!".

The problem is that everybody wants to hear that (well, maybe not Gold owners in the Carribean) and there is no way you can get that trade in a points system if you call 15 minutes after the booking window opens... and those reservations are not going back to II for subsequent trades.



> According to Fletch (an insider, remember) the number one complaint from owners is II's system.



There is always a "no. 1 complaint" - in any system. But I've seen the pitfalls of a points system too (Starwood) and that's the main reason I bought Marriott in the first place. Marriott owners are extremely happy - I'm sure you've seen the owner satisfaction survey for Marriott on TUG (less than 15% define themselves dissatisfied) - most systems should envy that... and Marriott should protect that at all costs, especially in these economic times. It took them a couple of decades to build this reputation. It will take one idiotic idea to ruin it all.

So now that I got tempted to reply in the thread I recommended letting die I'm going to follow my own advice...


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> That's a matter of opinion, isn't it?  According to Fletch (an insider, remember) the number one complaint from owners is II's system.  It's great that you're happy with your exchanges - you're one of the lucky ones.  I've been satisfied so far, too, but that's only because I knew from the beginning that "like for like" wouldn't be possible most of the time.  If they can roll out a new exchange system that gives me and others like me value equal to what we're depositing, then probably we'll be all ears.



The reality is that people like to complain. Unless they get what they want as soon as they want it, people will complain. 

I agree with DanCali- there are a lot of potential pitfalls. Starwood is another high end developer and look at how their point system works and how "easy" it is to get reservations. Not exactly the freedom that one envisions as being ideal.

And, before Disney and their successful system is cited- I don't think it would logistically be reasonable to expect a Disney-like system. Disney started as a points system and, even IF Marriott goes completely into a points based system (like the Asia Pacific) and not an overlay system, there will always be separate inventory because at least some (and likely initially at least most) owners will remain in the current system. That alone will make any new system difficult at best.

Sue- I agree- IF Marriott develops a system than is easy to make reservations in and guarantees me equal value both now at introduction (when they are making things look enticing) and in the future (when they introduce new resorts), then it would be very attractive. That's a huge IF though. The only way I would be convinced that Marriott was offering me equal value and would continue to do so in the future was IF, akin to Perry's suggestion, point valuations of what you owned and point cost of desired weeks to trade into were determined by the fair market rental rates (averaged for the dates across the season owned or being traded into). I'd like to be assured that there was an equitable system in place for now and that will place future resorts into their proper valuation, and not subject to whatever valuation Marriott places on them to entice sales (because I want to be able to trade into newer resorts 5 or 10 years sown the road). To put it simply- if I am giving up a week that Marriott would be happy to rent for $800 a night, then I'd want $5600 worth of rental- whether that's 5 nights in a more luxurious or larger accommodation or 14 nights elsewhere, or even 3 or 4 weeks perhaps in a smaller unit, off-season, or a less in demand locale.

Marriott should be valuating timeshares by some objective criteria- and fair market rental rates are an objective criteria that reflect costs to build, costs to run and demand; it reflects resort quality and destination demand.

btw- That's what I'd consider fair. I am not sure if the Orlando owner who beforehand enjoyed trading into Hawaii, the Caribbean, ski weeks, etc., would be so happy. The new system might be their number one complaint....


----------



## Fredm

hipslo said:


> Marriott Mountainside has been sold out for some time.  I have owned there for 4 years now, and there has not been an on-site sales office during any of that period.  A year or so ago, the sales office on Main Street in Park City closed.
> 
> Today, I received in the mail the meeting minutes from the Jan 26, 2010 Board meeting.  One item that piqued my curiosity was a reference to a discussion by the general manager of "a potential new Portfolio Sales Gallery operated by Marriott Ownership Resorts Inc inside the resort".  No further details were given.
> 
> Anyone care to guess what they are likely to be trying to sell?   Since they don't have any units left at Mountainside to sell?



hipslo,

I do not have a definite answer to your question. However, Marriott has selectively resumed its ROFR activities. Specifically, they have exercised two Summit Watch week 52 transactions. One at $40,000, and one at $45,000, this past week.

BTW, Marriott has a published price of $85,000 (68k after the temporary 20% discount) for these units. So, they are selling what they choose to buy (as opposed to accumulating them for a points program).

As the recent credit market dislocations have abated somewhat, my guess is that Marriott's capital expenditure freeze that has been in place for the past 16 months is beginning to thaw.


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> The reality is that people like to complain. Unless they get what they want as soon as they want it, people will complain. ...



That's stating the obvious - just look at how many posts this topic generates when we don't even know the details of what we're complaining about!  The difference, though, is that the owners who are complaining about II are complaining about a system that they already know isn't equitable or easy for them to use.



m61376 said:


> IF Marriott develops a system than is easy to make reservations in and guarantees me equal value both now at introduction (when they are making things look enticing) and in the future (when they introduce new resorts), then it would be very attractive. That's a huge IF though. ...



That huge IF exists now with exchanges through II.  For one thing, there is no guarantee (and it's stipulated in the governing docs) that Marriott will continue a relationship with II, or if they do, that II will not change its system at any point.  As well, in the existing system II does use a quality rating system wherein older resorts lose trade value as newer resorts are added to the inventory.  IMO, it's unreasonable to demand or expect a guarantee of future exchange success no matter if they roll out a new system or not.

As far as exchange point values being correlated to rack rental rates if a new system is rolled out, we'll just have to agree to disagree.  As demonstrated, those rates are temporary and fluctuate according to factors that do not apply to timeshare ownership; presumably, Marriott would set exchange point values on a permanent basis (similar to MRP exchange values).


----------



## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> Marriott Mountainside has been sold out for some time.  I have owned there for 4 years now, and there has not been an on-site sales office during any of that period.  A year or so ago, the sales office on Main Street in Park City closed.
> 
> Today, I received in the mail the meeting minutes from the Jan 26, 2010 Board meeting.  One item that piqued my curiosity was a reference to a discussion by the general manager of "a potential new Portfolio Sales Gallery operated by Marriott Ownership Resorts Inc inside the resort".  No further details were given.
> 
> Anyone care to guess what they are likely to be trying to sell?   Since they don't have any units left at Mountainside to sell?



I think a "Portfolio Sales Gallery" is what's currently in place at the preview center at SurfWatch.  It used to showcase only SurfWatch; now there are giant lighted photos of MVCI resorts all over as well as dioramas of the newest resorts.  The changeover happened before they announced the closure of sales centers due to the economy, so perhaps this is the sales model that they're intending to put in place wherever sales offices (re)open.  It's correct, though, that the model would work nicely to showcase a new internal exchange system alongside the resorts themselves.


----------



## hipslo

Fredm said:


> hipslo,
> 
> I do not have a definite answer to your question. However, Marriott has selectively resumed is ROFR activities. Specifically, they have exercised two Summit Watch week 52 transactions. One at $40,000, and one at $45,000, this past week.
> 
> BTW, Marriott has a published price of $85,000 (68k after the temporary 20% discount) for these units. So, they are selling what they choose to buy (as opposed to accumulating them for a points program).
> 
> As the recent credit market dislocations have abated somewhat, my guess is that Marriott's capital expenditure freeze that has been in place for the past 16 months is beginning to thaw.



thats very interesting, thanks fred


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> That huge IF exists now with exchanges through II.  For one thing, there is no guarantee (and it's stipulated in the governing docs) that Marriott will continue a relationship with II, or if they do, that II will not change its system at any point.  As well, in the existing system II does use a quality rating system wherein older resorts lose trade value as newer resorts are added to the inventory.  IMO, it's unreasonable to demand or expect a guarantee of future exchange success no matter if they roll out a new system or not.
> 
> As far as exchange point values being correlated to rack rental rates if a new system is rolled out, we'll just have to agree to disagree.  As demonstrated, those rates are temporary and fluctuate according to factors that do not apply to timeshare ownership; presumably, Marriott would set exchange point values on a permanent basis (similar to MRP exchange values).



I didn't mean to imply that they would be guaranteeing anything- just that the system that they choose to evaluate weeks should be transparent and reflect true value (which is a combination of both resort quality and location).  I know you don't feel that rental rates are an adequate assessment, but overall I think they reflect value pretty acurately, especially when averaged over a season. And, while I expect exchange point values to remain stable and rental rates increase over time, if Timeshare A was awarded AX points in 2010, when timeshare B is added a few years down then road, a comparison between the 2010 and the then current rental rates can be used to allot timeshare B the same relative value BX in points, despite the passage of time.


----------



## timeos2

*As an owner do you want to pay for the sales area(s)?*



SueDonJ said:


> I think a "Portfolio Sales Gallery" is what's currently in place at the preview center at SurfWatch.  It used to showcase only SurfWatch; now there are giant lighted photos of MVCI resorts all over as well as dioramas of the newest resorts.  The changeover happened before they announced the closure of sales centers due to the economy, so perhaps this is the sales model that they're intending to put in place wherever sales offices (re)open.  It's correct, though, that the model would work nicely to showcase a new internal exchange system alongside the resorts themselves.



And are they paying for that space or are the owners being hit for the costs? Many developers seem to feel that they have forever rights to use space at no charge and worse have the resort pay for the ongoing upkeep and expenses. Is that the case here?


----------



## hipslo

timeos2 said:


> And are they paying for that space or are the owners being hit for the costs? Many developers seem to feel that they have forever rights to use space at no charge and worse have the resort pay for the ongoing upkeep and expenses. Is that the case here?



good point - don't know


----------



## AwayWeGo

*No El Freebo Sales Facilities On Site Once The Timeshare Is Sold Out.*




timeos2 said:


> And are they paying for that space or are the owners being hit for the costs? Many developers seem to feel that they have forever rights to use space at no charge and worse have the resort pay for the ongoing upkeep and expenses. Is that the case here?


OK, so maybe the timeshare company reserves the exclusive right to sell timeshares on site without paying anything for the office space, sales rooms, freebies window, cubicles, utilities, etc., involved in the sales effort.  That's not optimum for the owners, but it's understandable & maybe even tolerable. 

But then if the timeshare company quits selling timeshares on site & instead starts selling club memberships or point-based exchange systems or something else instead of selling straight timeshares on site, then that's something else again. 

By me, when the timeshare resort is sold out, then that ends the timeshare company's exclusive right to sell timeshares on site on an _el freebo_ basis.  

Once the resort is sold out, it's sold out.  After that, if the timeshare company wants to keep on using the sales room, etc., on site for other kinds of selling (points, clubs, etc.), then they can jolly well pay for the privilege. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## Fredm

AwayWeGo said:


> By me, when the timeshare resort is sold out, then that ends the timeshare company's exclusive right to sell timeshares on site on an _el freebo_ basis.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​[/FONT][/SIZE]




I agree. But, what they will do is call it a "resale" office. Owners will like that.


----------



## timeos2

*Sold out - then be gone or pay to stay*



AwayWeGo said:


> Once the resort is sold out, it's sold out.  After that, if the timeshare wants to keep on using the sales room, etc., on site for other kinds of selling (points, clubs, etc.), then they can jolly well pay for the privilege.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



AMEN to that. Well said and often tough to achieve.


----------



## SueDonJ

AwayWeGo said:


> OK, so maybe the timeshare company reserves the exclusive right to sell timeshares on site without paying anything for the office space, sales rooms, freebies window, cubicles, utilities, etc., involved in the sales effort.  That's not optimum for the owners, but it's understandable & maybe even tolerable.
> 
> But then if the timeshare company quits selling timeshares on site & instead starts selling club memberships or point-based exchange systems or something else instead of selling straight timeshares on site, then that's something else again.
> 
> By me, when the timeshare resort is sold out, then that ends the timeshare company's exclusive right to sell timeshares on site on an _el freebo_ basis.
> 
> Once the resort is sold out, it's sold out.  After that, if the timeshare wants to keep on using the sales room, etc., on site for other kinds of selling (points, clubs, etc.), then they can jolly well pay for the privilege.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​





timeos2 said:


> And are they paying for that space or are the owners being hit for the costs? Many developers seem to feel that they have forever rights to use space at no charge and worse have the resort pay for the ongoing upkeep and expenses. Is that the case here? ... AMEN to that. Well said and often tough to achieve.



That might be your perfect world, Alan, but it's not Marriott's.  And yes, John, it's pretty much that the sales offices are only subject to whatever other fees Marriott pays for Common Elements, and I'd guess it's next to impossible to force anything more or change the structure with Marriott.   

Marriott contracts stipulate that they, as the developer, have the right to keep a sales office on any MVCI property for that and any other MVCI resort.  Here's that provision from SurfWatch's Master Deed (Barony's, and I'm sure others, are similar):



> Declarant's Use For Sales Activities.  The Declarant, and its successors and assigns, shall be entitled to use one or more of the units and/or Common Elements, including the future improvements in the CFB, both during the time period that the Phase I Property and all or a portion of the Future Phase Property is developed by Declarant and subsequent to those time periods for sales activities, for a sales model, for guest and sales prospect accommodations, for ongoing management and resale real estate services, and similar activities, such services and said activities not necessarily relating or limited to the Property comprising this Regime, but also to any other project(s) or properties either developed or managed by Declarant (but not  necessarily owned) or its affiliated entities, or as part of a cluster plan as referenced below in Section 10, or for which Declarant or its affiliated entities serves as a selling or listing brokerage firm.  Declarant shall not be assessed any cost for such use of the Common Elements. ...


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Shame On Marriott For Stacking The Deck.*




SueDonJ said:


> That might be your perfect world, Alan, but it's not Marriott's.


Then shux upon'm. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## SueDonJ

AwayWeGo said:


> Shame On Marriott For Stacking The Deck.
> 
> Then shux upon'm.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



I dunno, Alan.  Why "shame on Marriott?"  They're not doing anything that any of the other big multi-resort timeshare companies aren't doing.  When you buy a Marriott week, if the salesperson has done his/her job correctly and/or (more importantly, IMO) the buyer has done due diligence, then it's understood that the contracts provide benefits for and obligations from the owners as well as Marriott (as developer and management company.)  They're not doing anything underhanded or shady, so why should they be shamed?

It's one thing to say that the Marriott model/structure isn't what you would want in a timeshare - that's perfectly understandable.  But to say that Marriott shouldn't run its timeshare business the way you don't like?  I don't get that.  Different strokes, right?


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> I dunno, Alan.  Why "shame on Marriott?"  They're not doing anything that any of the other big multi-resort timeshare companies are doing.  When you buy a Marriott week, if the salesperson has done his/her job correctly and/or (more importantly, IMO) the buyer has done due diligence, then it's understood that the contracts provide benefits for and obligations from the owners as well as Marriott (as developer and management company.)  They're not doing anything underhanded or shady, so why should they be shamed?



But isn't that like saying that if you join a new workplace and they make you sign a non-compete that's ok too? 

Most non-compete agreements are entered into with little, if any, negotiation between the employer and the employee. They usually are signed at the outset of an employment relationship where the employee may have very little bargaining power and when the employee is generally not too concerned about limitations on future employability when beginning a new job (Does this sound familiar if you replace a few of the words?) . It can become a problem when the employee becomes dissatisfied... 

Yet, some of these are so draconian that courts deem them unenforceable. Not everything they put in front of you to sign is valid just because you sign it. Sometimes things don't pass a simple reasonableness test.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Timeshare Company Should Bow Out When The Resort Sells Out.*




SueDonJ said:


> But to say that Marriott shouldn't run its timeshare business the way you don't like?  I don't get that.


It's not just Marriott.  

Once the units are all sold & an independent, owner-controlled HOA takes over, then the Developer Of Record needs to get out of the way -- Marriott, WestGate, DRI, mox nix. 

Running a timeshare business is 1 thing.  Hanging on in owner-unfriendly ways after a timeshare is sold out is something else again. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## bdh

AwayWeGo said:


> *Timeshare Company Should Bow Out When The Resort Sells Out. *



But if they pull out, how will they be able to sell the weeks at a full freight price that they picked up via ROFR?


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> But isn't that like saying that if you join a new workplace and they make you sign a non-compete that's ok too?
> 
> Most non-compete agreements are entered into with little, if any, negotiation between the employer and the employee. They usually are signed at the outset of an employment relationship where the employee may have very little bargaining power and when the employee is generally not too concerned about limitations on future employability when beginning a new job (Does this sound familiar if you replace a few of the words?) . It can become a problem when the employee becomes dissatisfied...
> 
> Yet, some of these are so draconian that courts deem them unenforceable. Not everything they put in front of you to sign is valid just because you sign it. Sometimes things don't pass a simple reasonableness test.



Whether any of us thinks it's shameful or unreasonable for Marriott to use space at existing resorts for sales offices is, I guess, a matter of opinion.  I responded to John and Alan only to say that it is what it is - Marriott does have that right  - but then Alan's "shameful" comment surprised me.  I happen to think the provision is not unreasonable, because if Marriott isn't able to sustain its business model then all of the resorts are at risk for devaluation.  What better place to put a sales office than somewhere at a resort which is successful?  You disagree, I think, but neither of us is wrong.  It wouldn't matter anyway if we were, because until someone decides to challenge the unreasonableness of it in Court and wins, Marriott's right will stand.


----------



## Transit

AwayWeGo said:


> It's not just Marriott.
> 
> Once the units are all sold & an independent, owner-controlled HOA takes over, then the Developer Of Record needs to get out of the way -- Marriott, WestGate, DRI, mox nix.
> 
> Running a timeshare business is 1 thing.  Hanging on in owner-unfriendly ways after a timeshare is sold out is something else again.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Alan, Has any chain brand timeshare ever relinquished HOA to owners? I thought when you bought a chain brand  resort the connection would always remain even after the resort sold out.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*OK, Shame On'm Is Too Strong.  (Shux Upon'm Is Strong Enough, No?)*




SueDonJ said:


> I happen to think the provision is not unreasonable, because if Marriott isn't able to sustain its business model then all of the resorts are at risk for devaluation.


Biz model would be stronger if it did not depend (assuming it does -- I don't know) upon hanging around & exacting free salesroom space & calling the shots after the timeshare resort is sold out. 

I mean, shux, once a particular resort is sold out, then shouldn't the biz model focus on strong sales at the next resort that's not yet sold out ? 

Too simple, I suppose. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## SueDonJ

AwayWeGo said:


> Biz model would be stronger if it did not depend (assuming it does -- I don't know) upon hanging around & exacting free salesroom space & calling the shots after the timeshare resort is sold out.
> 
> I mean, shux, once a particular resort is sold out, then shouldn't the biz model focus on strong sales at the next resort that's not yet sold out ?
> 
> Too simple, I suppose.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



But we need to remember that Marriott isn't only the developer of MVCI resorts, they're also the management company.  They won't relinquish that position easily because it offers them a ready-made sales model and site, and, their management fees amount to 10% of the annual m/f in addition to whatever revenue they generate at onsite stores, through the activity fees, etc.

As an owner I don't want Marriott to dissolve their management contract with my resorts because I like what Marriott offers its owners - upscale resorts for home use, a variety of similar-quality resorts for exchanging (whether through a new internal system or the existing external II system,) MRP exchange for access to Marriott hotels all over the world, etc.

You just have to know what you're getting into when you buy a Marriott (or any other big multi-resort timeshare player) week.  I think that if someone's unhappy with Marriott's contract protections, it would be easier for them to sell their Marriott week(s) than to fight the contracts as unreasonable.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*I'm Beginning To Get The Picture.*




SueDonJ said:


> You just have to know what you're getting into when you buy a Marriott (or any other big multi-resort timeshare player) week.


What you're getting into *. . .* 

1. Prominent upscale name in the hospitality field. 

2.  ROFR. 

3.  Developer that does not relinquish resort management & that keeps on collecting cost-plus management fees even when resorts are sold out. 

4. Timeshare chain that may or may not soon superimpose points-based internal exchange system on top of current straight-weeks reservation system. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## m61376

But...at the end of the day, you still know what the quality of the resort and the amenities are going to be when you arrive. People who are willing to pay up front for Marriott quality by and large want the security of knowing that quality is going to be maintained and things haven't been let go. They don't want any unpleasant surprises when they arrive.

For some people, the extra 10% in management fees and perhaps a few dollars a year per week in lieu of sales space rent is worth the security of knowing that your vacation won't be a disappointment.

Clearly, it's not worth it to some people, and that's why there are lots of other systems to choose from.


----------



## SueDonJ

Transit said:


> Alan, Has any chain brand timeshare ever relinquished HOA to owners? I thought when you bought a chain brand  resort the connection would always remain even after the resort sold out.



Frank, there are several resorts which were previously MVCI properties but aren't any more - the ones I know of are Swallowtail and Spicebush on Hilton Head, and I think only two of the buildings at Streamside at Vail, CO.  From reading about those here on TUG it appears that the owners no longer wanted the resorts to be run according to the Marriott management standard, but I don't know whether those dissolutions came about because the owners voted Marriott out or because Marriott chose to not renew the management contracts.  More recently (2008?,) I think some folks believe that Beach Place was at risk for Marriott dissolving that management contract but things eventually worked out.

With Marriotts there isn't any guarantee of a forever connection; the term limits and renewal options of the management contracts are stipulated in the governing docs.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*That Depends On What The Meaning Of Chain Brand Is.*




Transit said:


> Alan, Has any chain brand timeshare ever relinquished HOA to owners? I thought when you bought a chain brand  resort the connection would always remain even after the resort sold out.


In truth, that question is way above my pay grade & I don't pretend to know. 

The 1 case I am semi-familiar with is Cypress Pointe I & II (Orlando FL), where some long-forgotten timeshare company started construction & sales, then got taken over or bought out (etc.) by SunTerra, which later on got absorbed into DRI.  

Was SunTerra a national chain brand ? 

Is DRI ? 

I am pretty sure they would like to be -- that they are doing what they can to add the sound of sizzle to the aroma of steak. 

However that may be, in the case of Cypress Pointe I & II, management was taken over by 2 respective independent, owner-controlled HOAs well before DRI ever supplanted SunTerra.  (That was before my time, but my impression is that the timeshare company did not gladly relinquish control.) 

So are Cypress Pointe I & II no longer nationally chain branded (to the extent they ever were) ? 

My impression as an owner at Cypress Pointe I & II (EEY at Phase One) is that we're getting resort management & operation that's better _and_ cheaper than what we'd be getting if DRI were in the driver's seat.  

Beyond that, it is my distinct impression from reading stuff right here at TUG-BBS that when the timeshare companies keep control & preserve national chain brand continuity, they do so much more for the health of their own profit-loss statements & much less for the benefit of their paid-in-full & annual-fee-paying owners.  

As long as those owners perceive value in the premium they're paying for chain-brand management over professional independent resort management, then hats off to'm -- the owners & the company both. 

And when the timeshare company keeps hanging on & on to the detriment of the owners' resort experience & at extra expense to the owners via higher fees, then shux upon'm -- the company, I mean, not the owners.  

Whether that has any application to any current or former Marriott timeshares, I do not know & will not guess.   Clearly, national chain brand timeshares are considered worth their cost to some people, and that's why there are plenty of those from which to choose.  More power to'm -- the people, I mean, not the national chain brand timeshare companies. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## kjd

*Alan*

How can anyone buy a Marriott timeshare or anything else for that matter and not expect costs to go higher?  Wouldn't one think that Marriott employees deserve a pay raise or that vendors will have increased operating costs to provide the same products or services to Marriott?

Competition may hold price increases down in most cases but the history of our economy tells us that most prices will rise.  IMHO most price increases are necessary in order to provide the same level of services.  As an owner I do not want a diminution of services because I'm relying on the Marriott brand to have a constant standard no matter where I happen to vacation.  Reliance upon the Marriott brand is a better idea than reliance upon a timeshares board of directors.


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## tlwmkw

Allan,

Marriott has closed the sales office at Barony (they were using space in the garden view buildings and have converted them back to timeshare units), and they do not maintain sales offices at Monarch or Grande Ocean (that I have seen anyway).  I also don't think they have sales offices at the other MVCI resorts on Hilton Head.  The sales office at Surfwatch is also in garden view units and they say it will be turned back into villas once they sell out and no longer need the space- the resort is not yet sold out.  So despite maintaining the rights to the space they don't alway keep the space for themselves.  This is just how they do it and it doesn't really bother me.

On the discussion as to whether Marriott has left as the management company of any timeshares the answer is yes they have- as Suedonj says above.  If you question the Marriott folk about this they will say that they've never left a timeshare that they built from the ground up (have to qualify it to make it true) and then add a big yet because I'm sure it could happen.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*That's About The Size Of It.*




kjd said:


> Reliance upon the Marriott brand is a better idea than reliance upon a timeshares board of directors.


For the Marriott timeshare fans, I'd say that's pretty much nails it. 

For the fans of the high-quality, independent, non-branded luxury timeshares, not so much. 

Fortunately for us TUG-BBS types, there are plenty of both kinds to go round. 

Is this a great country or what ? 

_Full Disclosure*:*_  We didn't seek out our high-quality, independent, non-branded luxury timeshares so much as luck into them.  There is no doubt in my mind it was sheer, blind good fortune that we did so.  By contrast, at our unbranded points timeshare out in the American heartland, the independent HOA plainly does not have a handle on cost containment, & I have no idea what the resort experience is like out there, because we've never gone to the resort & are unlikely ever to go.  We just use the points for exchanges into other people's timeshares (including our own outstanding Orlando FL timeshares).  All this is by way of saying that I suspect people's opinions of the relative values of independent luxury timeshares on the 1 hand & pricey chain brand timeshares on the other hand are apt to be colored by their own individual experiences.  We didn't dope it all out in advance & then take the plunge.  We took the plunge & then formed our views based on what actually happened.  As a philosophical proposition, however, it is important to understand that what _could_ have happened, _did_. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## SueDonJ

kjd said:


> How can anyone buy a Marriott timeshare or anything else for that matter and not expect costs to go higher?  Wouldn't one think that Marriott employees deserve a pay raise or that vendors will have increased operating costs to provide the same products or services to Marriott?
> 
> Competition may hold price increases down in most cases but the history of our economy tells us that most prices will rise.  IMHO most price increases are necessary in order to provide the same level of services.  As an owner I do not want a diminution of services because I'm relying on the Marriott brand to have a constant standard no matter where I happen to vacation.  Reliance upon the Marriott brand is a better idea than reliance upon a timeshares board of directors.



I agree completely.  I'd be very worried if my timeshares' BOD's primary concern was with keeping costs/MF down.  It's one thing to shop around to get the best price for the services/supplies and to conservatively project future needs to fund reserves in order to keep a timeshare running at a certain standard.  It's another thing altogether to skimp on or forego services/supplies/reserves in order to maintain a certain low MF threshhold.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Same Here.*




SueDonJ said:


> I'd be very worried if my timeshares' BOD's primary concern was with keeping costs/MF down.  It's one thing to shop around to get the best price for the services/supplies and to conservatively project future needs to fund reserves in order to keep a timeshare running at a certain standard.  It's another thing altogether to skimp on or forego services/supplies/reserves in order to maintain a certain low MF threshhold.


Me too. 

I like it when the timeshare HOA-BOD achieves a track record of steady improvement (renovations, upgrades, enhancements, modernization, etc.) _and_ hard-core, nickel-squeezing, penny-pinching, tough-minded cost control, all at the same time. 

It's a neat trick, & I wonder just how many timeshare HOAs are up to it -- independent & company controlled _mox nix_.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## timeos2

*Tacking on 10-15% does nothing to help owners or quality*



SueDonJ said:


> It's another thing altogether to skimp on or forego services/supplies/reserves in order to maintain a certain low MF threshhold.



Which history has shown to be likely to occur when a Developer is in charge as they protect their income vs the good of the resort.  Then when things start to fall apart they simply assess the owners, with a 10%+/- overhead added, to make up for what they didn't collect. 

I really find it hard to believe that there is any additional value added to furniture purchased from a "recommended" (read we get a kick back) vendor from a brand name management who then also charges their overhead on the project. What it sounds like is money wasted that could have bought better products or a lower overall cost for the project.  There is no magic to making a resort top notch that requires a Hilton or Marriott name. Only a willingness by the owners to support a level of quality that meets or exceeds their expectations. And do it with the minimum expense possible rather than a percentage pay out to a national brand name.


----------



## m61376

timeos2 said:


> Which history has shown to be likely to occur when a Developer is in charge as they protect their income vs the good of the resort.  Then when things start to fall apart they simply assess the owners, with a 10%+/- overhead added, to make up for what they didn't collect.
> 
> I really find it hard to believe that there is any additional value added to furniture purchased from a "recommended" (read we get a kick back) vendor from a brand name management who then also charges their overhead on the project. What it sounds like is money wasted that could have bought better products or a lower overall cost for the project.  There is no magic to making a resort top notch that requires a Hilton or Marriott name. Only a willingness by the owners to support a level of quality that meets or exceeds their expectations. And do it with the minimum expense possible rather than a percentage pay out to a national brand name.



While you are, of course, right in theory, it may be much harder to achieve consistently. It is very hard to get even full time residents of a co-op or condo to authorize expenditures, let alone owners who are spending a week or two a year, mixed in with owners who only use the property for trade so have no real interest in ensuring its upkeep. 

Of course, buying the same product for cheaper and not having to pay a management fee is preferable, but having the brand name and their management does ensure a level of quality, albeit at a cost. Perhaps it comes down to whether you are willing to pay an extra hundred dollars or so a year in MF-s- really an extra $100 of vacation expense- to ensure that when you arrive you'll be getting the vacation you're anticipating.


----------



## Transit

If I spin the II wheel of fortune and it lands on a Marriott I know that it's a brand name with a good reputation it's an easy choice. I pull Joe's viilas on the beach I'd be concerned. Nothing wrong with nice independents but there is a comforting standard with brand names.


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## AwayWeGo

*That's Why The HOA-BOD Members Get The Big Bux.*




m61376 said:


> It is very hard to get even full time residents of a co-op or condo to authorize expenditures, let alone owners who are spending a week or two a year, mixed in with owners who only use the property for trade so have no real interest in ensuring its upkeep.


Fortunately, it's unnecessary to get the full-time residents or the 1- & 2-week interval owners to authorize expenditures for upkeep & improvements.  

That's what the homeowner association Board Of Directors is for. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## AwayWeGo

*It's All In Delivering Quality & Value For Money To The Owners.*




timeos2 said:


> There is no magic to making a resort top notch that requires a Hilton or Marriott name. Only a willingness by the owners to support a level of quality that meets or exceeds their expectations. And do it with the minimum expense possible rather than a percentage pay out to a national brand name.


Allowing for the perceived value in brand-name timeshares like Hilton, Marriott, etc., it's still got to be extremely tough to make every dollar collected from owners return value to the owners when the timeshare company is raking off 10-15%. 

Plus, when the company-controlled management organization charges a percentage on top of actual expenses, they don't have much incentive to hold down costs. 

Maybe I never fully appreciated as much as I should the rarity of those unbranded resorts that deliver quality all the way, thanks to value-minded & cost-conscious HOA-BODs, & fixed-fee contracts (i.e., not cost-plus deals) with independent resort management contractors. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## ilene13

no, the Royal Resorts has a desk at II.  Marriott is not an owner of II.  In fact II originally was in Buffalo, in the early 1980's when we bought our 1st timeshares.


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## PerryM

*Viva La Resale!!!!*



Fredm said:


> hipslo,
> 
> I do not have a definite answer to your question. However, Marriott has selectively resumed its ROFR activities. Specifically, they have exercised two Summit Watch week 52 transactions. *One at $40,000, and one at $45,000, this past week*.
> 
> BTW, Marriott has a published price of $85,000 (68k after the temporary 20% discount) for these units. So, they are selling what they choose to buy (as opposed to accumulating them for a points program).
> 
> As the recent credit market dislocations have abated somewhat, my guess is that Marriott's capital expenditure freeze that has been in place for the past 16 months is beginning to thaw.



Just saw this post - been busy lately.

$68,000 * 60% = $40,800.

$68,000 * 66% = $45,000.

The ROFR is still being executed at the 60% and 66% level of current sales price.  I'm assuming Marriott instantly flipped those resales for a tidy profit with a few hours work by some grunt somewhere.  Viva La Resale!!!

Who says resales are evil?


----------



## Fredm

PerryM said:


> Just saw this post - been busy lately.
> 
> $68,000 * 60% = $40,800.
> 
> $68,000 * 66% = $45,000.
> 
> The ROFR is still being executed at the 60% and 66% level of current sales price.  I'm assuming Marriott instantly flipped those resales for a tidy profit with a few hours work by some grunt somewhere.  Viva La Resale!!!
> 
> Who says resales are evil?



Yep, I also assume they were quickly flipped.
I do not anticipate Marriott exercising its preemption right on a broad scale anytime soon.  They are still preserving capital. Nonetheless, it does appear that the freeze is beginning to thaw.

I posted the information not so much to advise of the ROFR's, as to offer a possible explanation for the newly announced sales desk at MountainSide.


----------



## GaryDouglas

I think they'll snag this one...


----------



## dioxide45

GaryDouglas said:


> I think they'll snag this one...



I wouldn't be so sure. I am sure they have plenty of their own inventory yet to unload in Maui. They won't want to pick up something that they have to pay MF on until they can turn it over.


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## taffy19

First, it said that it was in the new tower but then they corrected it again because that number is not in the new towers as I double checked it.  What a deal anyway for two floating ocean view units.     Now is the time to buy if you are planning to keep it for many years.  It is such a lovely spot.


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## dougp26364

Transit said:


> Alan, Has any chain brand timeshare ever relinquished HOA to owners? I thought when you bought a chain brand  resort the connection would always remain even after the resort sold out.



Marriott has released a couple of resorts in Hilton Head and a couple of the buildings in Vail. They sounded as if they were close to turning lose of Beachplace Towers when the HOA was at odds with Marriott over refurbishment.


----------



## mas

GaryDouglas said:


> I think they'll snag this one...



Something doesn't add up here. They say that they are selling TWO weeks (annual--not EOY).  Yet according to what is due for maint. fees on closing is $1538.81.  Unless this is per unit week (which isn't indicated) that maint. fee is too low for two units.


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## m61376

mas said:


> Something doesn't add up here. They say that they are selling TWO weeks (annual--not EOY).  Yet according to what is due for maint. fees on closing is $1538.81.  Unless this is per unit week (which isn't indicated) that maint. fee is too low for two units.



If you look under the question part, they do note that it is for each week. The ad, as you mention, was confusing.


----------



## GregT

mas said:


> Something doesn't add up here. They say that they are selling TWO weeks (annual--not EOY).  Yet according to what is due for maint. fees on closing is $1538.81.  Unless this is per unit week (which isn't indicated) that maint. fee is too low for two units.



This was an interesting auction -- I corresponded a fair amount with the seller, who clearly did not know what they were selling.

They told me this was a Full kitchen (therefore not MOC), 1BR unit (therefore MOC), back-to-back TWO weeks (but not fixed weeks -- but they said it must be back to back), and that it was $1,538 in annual MFs.

My conversations suggested the agent had no idea what they were listing, and wasn't prepared for multiple questions from knowledgeable buyers.

I would love to know if this actually passes thru to the buyer....


----------



## FlyerBobcat

I can't say I'm impressed at all with this ebay seller: vaca4life2

In this recent auction, the ad listed 





> Float week:22-27 36-49 (red Season)


Those weeks are "white" season per Marriott's calendar.

Here is the Q & A from that auction, related to that inaccuracy:


> Q: Is this not a white week? 22-27 and 36-49 float What is the special assessment of 373.25? Richard
> A: the ad is as listed.. No answer on origin of sa. but its in the mf



I just don't like the smug attitude that I perceive.   Personally I'd stay away from that seller.

On a related note to you DSV-II owners, is the Special Assessment information accurate?


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## m61376

Tom-
I think the whole red-white categorization is confusing. What Marriott considers an off-season white week may be a red week (albeit ever so slightly, so really pink) in II, because it is a high quality resort but an off season week. I find a lot of off season weeks are still advertised as red weeks on Ebay.

Not to give any credit to this reseller, but as a general warning buyers have to be really careful with Ebay descriptions. It is really important to check the resort calendar and verify the ownership information before bidding, because there are so many inaccuracies.


----------



## FlyerBobcat

M-
Agree with you all-the-way that in can be confusing -- and LOTS of time intentionally misleading, especially on sites such as Redweek.  We are in sync.

I just strongly feel that since the seller is selling a Marriott week, not an II week (whatever that means  ), that when presented with the question of it being a "white week", his given answer  "... is as listed " is inappropriate -- and cause for me to blackball that seller.  His responses to questions in other auctions sometimes indicates a lack of knowledge -- and/or time to give to help his potential buyers. 

DSV calendar from Marriott


----------



## Dean

AwayWeGo said:


> OK, so maybe the timeshare company reserves the exclusive right to sell timeshares on site without paying anything for the office space, sales rooms, freebies window, cubicles, utilities, etc., involved in the sales effort.  That's not optimum for the owners, but it's understandable & maybe even tolerable.
> 
> But then if the timeshare company quits selling timeshares on site & instead starts selling club memberships or point-based exchange systems or something else instead of selling straight timeshares on site, then that's something else again.
> 
> By me, when the timeshare resort is sold out, then that ends the timeshare company's exclusive right to sell timeshares on site on an _el freebo_ basis.
> 
> Once the resort is sold out, it's sold out.  After that, if the timeshare company wants to keep on using the sales room, etc., on site for other kinds of selling (points, clubs, etc.), then they can jolly well pay for the privilege.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


At least in Florida they would have to either pay dues on the commercial space they use OR indemnify the resort against dramatic overages for any applicable year as I understand it.  Given that the resort could still recoup any overages the next year, this is a big benefit for the developer/management company.  It essentially means that for almost no risk they can avoid paying maint on the commercial space they own.  Assuming they jump through the correct hoops of course.


----------



## ricki999

FlyerBobcat said:


> I can't say I'm impressed at all with this ebay seller: vaca4life2
> 
> In this recent auction, the ad listed
> Those weeks are "white" season per Marriott's calendar.
> 
> Here is the Q & A from that auction, related to that inaccuracy:
> 
> 
> I just don't like the smug attitude that I perceive.   Personally I'd stay away from that seller.
> 
> On a related note to you DSV-II owners, is the Special Assessment information accurate?


$373.25 is the amount of the 2010 Replacement Reserve.  I am unaware of any Special Assesments.


----------



## thinze3

FlyerBobcat said:


> I can't say I'm impressed at all with this ebay seller: vaca4life2
> 
> In this recent auction, the ad listed
> Those weeks are "white" season per Marriott's calendar.
> 
> Here is the Q & A from that auction, related to that inaccuracy:
> 
> I just don't like the smug attitude that I perceive.   Personally I'd stay away from that seller.
> 
> On a related note to you DSV-II owners, is the Special Assessment information accurate?



I have not seen any special assessment announcements.


----------



## rfb813

This was posted on the Grand Vista owners  group on Yahoo. Sounds like Marriott is starting to open up with their plans.

"Thanks, I've distributed this to the other Board members and I'll bring it up at the Presidents Meeting and at the Board meeting on April 19.
I've also asked MRHC to provide some usage numbers. 

MVCI is giving us a preliminary look at the new internal exchange/points program and I've asked them to discuss whether the Florida Club would still be relevant. Perhaps its an anachronism and we'll find out. If it is, your Board will address it on April 19 at our Spring meeting.

Jim Shonkwiler
President, Grande Vista of Orlando Condominium, Inc."


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## ricki999

The $373.25 Reserve Fee is actually for DSVI not DSVII


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## ricki999

> This was posted on the Grand Vista owners group on Yahoo. Sounds like Marriott is starting to open up with their plans.
> 
> "Thanks, I've distributed this to the other Board members and I'll bring it up at the Presidents Meeting and at the Board meeting on April 19.
> I've also asked MRHC to provide some usage numbers.
> 
> MVCI is giving us a preliminary look at the new internal exchange/points program and I've asked them to discuss whether the Florida Club would still be relevant. Perhaps its an anachronism and we'll find out. If it is, your Board will address it on April 19 at our Spring meeting.
> 
> Jim Shonkwiler
> President, Grande Vista of Orlando Condominium, Inc."



Thanks for this update.  Hopefully the details will be available soon.


----------



## timeos2

*Why hasn't anyone said anything (wink wink nudge nudge)*



ricki999 said:


> Thanks for this update.  Hopefully the details will be available soon.



Huh, a points system is planned? Who'd a thunk THAT might be on the horizon soon?


----------



## ricki999

> Huh, a points system is planned? Who'd a thunk THAT might be on the horizon soon?



Do you have any of the preliminary program information the Board Members are being given a look at?


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## RandR

timeos2 said:


> Huh, a points system is planned? Who'd a thunk THAT might be on the horizon soon?



John, that is funny!!:hysterical:


----------



## mikeemis

I am at Surfwatch this week.  Here is a sampling of what I gleaned from a sales rep. concerning the upcoming points system.  Buy now and have the option of using either program.  Future buyers will only be offered the points system.  Much of this others have already indicated.  I was told the season and view would be very important with the new arrangement in regards to trading.  It will enable Marriott to break the week down into segments.  Also Marriott would like to go into some smaller markets and also more expensive locations, such as New  York City.  The normal Marriott resort needs at least 300 units to break even.  300 units in NYC would not be practical.  If they were to build a boutique property there or in some other high dollar location it would open up many more options for Marriott.


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## rfb813

Quote:
Originally Posted by timeos2  
Huh, a points system is planned? Who'd a thunk THAT might be on the horizon soon? 

John, that is funny!!




While we have discussed a point system for many years this appears to be the first time a Marriott resort board will be getting a prestentation from Marriott regarding the program. All the info in the past ha been conjecture based on rumor and/or unconfirmed statements from sales people.  Dave, have you heard anything more?


----------



## ricki999

QUOTE=rfb813;883427]Quote:
Originally Posted by timeos2  
Huh, a points system is planned? Who'd a thunk THAT might be on the horizon soon? 

John, that is funny!!


While we have discussed a point system for many years this appears to be the first time a Marriott resort board will be getting a prestentation from Marriott regarding the program. All the info in the past ha been conjecture based on rumor and/or unconfirmed statements from sales people.  Dave, have you heard anything more?[/QUOTE]



Hey John, doesn't look like you own Marriott, out of curiosity, what's your dog in this fight?  Hope you bet the house on a points system, going out on such a limb and such.


----------



## timeos2

*Great thread, poorly named*



ricki999 said:


> QUOTE=rfb813;883427]Quote:
> 
> 
> Hey John, doesn't look like you own Marriott, out of curiosity, what's your dog in this fight?  Hope you bet the house on a points system, going out on such a limb and such.



Nope, no Marriott ownership (nearly bought into Manor Club Williamsburg as we really loved it but decided it was easier/cheaper to just trade or rent when we really "needed" it).  

Keeping an eye on the thread/topic as a very active Board member at other (non-Marriott) resorts and because I am enthralled by the level of what appears to an outsider as self delusion owners have regarding the value of what they own and who/what looks out for them. The incredible amount of blind faith owners tend to place in groups such as Marriott or DVC any developer group to supposedly maintain resale value and/or hold fees down is a mystery to me. 

If they pay any attention at all they would come to recognize that the sole reason the developers exist and come up with these exchange schemes, or ROFR, or ongoing management of sold out resorts is to make money. Period. Depending on them rather than your fellow owners who volunteer to be the eyes and ears on a Owner controlled Board to operate and maintain the resorts is a big error.  They will pay dearly for that misplaced trust and get little or nothing out of it when the final accounting is done.  

A developer given the privilege of a management contract should answer to the Board as would any other contractor and not be there by threat or well written (for the Developer, not the owners) documents/contracts that keeps them in power against the owners wishes. If they do the job well and at reasonable rates the owners will be proud to have them and support the resort. If they don't they should be subject to the same dismissal as any other contractor would be without requiring the Association to go broke fighting a legal battle to oust them. 

The whole discussion is interesting on a number of levels. It covers so many issues as well as options. I only wish more owners would show the interest in the  Board/Association operation at their resort(s) that has been shown here regarding the likely new exchange offering from Marriott. They would be surprised what they might find and ow they can influence things if they did. The title isn't really right but it sure has manged to get attention.


----------



## taffy19

We are at our home resort in the Lahaina tower (MMO) now and it's SO NICE to be back in paradise.  My first question was "What's up with the new point system that every one is talking about?".  This person has worked here over 20 years.  His answer was that the marketing department and sales people are the last ones to know just like someone posted here.  He did say that there are going to be important meetings between now and June and that every one is going to be retrained.

We will have an update on Monday and hope to find out more.


----------



## dioxide45

What potentially bothers me about a points exchange program is that it will reduce inventory in the weeks system that we bought in to. We bought a weeks system to use weeks, not break up our stays and go for a few days here or there or long weekends.

If there are people wanting points and they hold Marriott's, they bought in to the wrong program. Marriott has been a weeks based system for 25 years. If you wanted long weekends or short stays, then you should have bought elsewhere. Expecting Marriott to go to points and flexible stay options isn't fair to those who bought in to what the system was, a weeks based system.

If this really comes to fruition, which I still highly doubt, it will be interesting to see how much inventory still remains in weeks. If it makes it harder for us to use the weeks based system we bought in to or we can no longer us it to get the value we currently do, we will dump it and go elsewhere. Or perhaps we will go no where and just travel like the average consumer.


----------



## GaryDouglas

iconnections said:


> "What's up with the new point system that every one is talking about?"


 
My contact at MOC/MMO said a few weeks ago that they should be selling out (I assume the Napili units), for the most part, by June. Prior to that, their staff would go through training in preparation of the new system. After that, no more week units will be available.


----------



## timeos2

*Why are points trades worse than weeks? They aren't!*



dioxide45 said:


> What potentially bothers me about a points exchange program is that it will reduce inventory in the weeks system that we bought in to. We bought a weeks system to use weeks, not break up our stays and go for a few days here or there or long weekends.



I'm interested in what exactly the difference in available inventory is if the week goes to II (or RCI or TPI or SFX,etc) - maybe broken into two, small 1 BR deposits that greatly devalue the unit IMO - or if the week goes to points and gets broken into 3/4 days of use? Either way the week is gone for the "regular" weeks user as the owner of that week has used it as they see fit, which is their absolute right. Any points system Marriott decides to offer is just another exchange, but with a different method of deposit and access. The week is no more or less used in points than any other trade. It is still gone from inventory.


----------



## dougp26364

iconnections said:


> We are at our home resort in the Lahaina tower (MMO) now and it's SO NICE to be back in paradise.  My first question was "What's up with the new point system that every one is talking about?".  This person has worked here over 20 years.  *His answer was that the marketing department and sales people are the last ones to know *just like someone posted here.  He did say that there are going to be important meetings between now and June and that every one is going to be retrained.
> 
> We will have an update on Monday and hope to find out more.



And that's what makes this entire thread just speculation. Salesmen don't know anything. They're probably making their assumptions based on rumors within the company and then are using the AP points program to make further assumptions that anything new will be the same. 

The only thing that seems to be consistant is that the feeling is there will be some sort of internal exchange program different than the Marriott priorty with Interval. I think that's a safe assumption since so many of the other major timeshare brands have some sort of internal exchange program of there own. Because of that, Marriott may feel they need something to maintain a competitive edge.

The other assumption I think is reasonably safe is that it will be consumer friendly and isn't going to get to far off the road paved by so many other companies. If it's not consumer friendly but only serves Marriott's sales team, it won't be a competitive product and will fail. 

It appears to be taking a long time for Marriott to release any change to their reservation program. I'd like to assume that is an indicator that it will be a well thought out program and one worthy of current owners participation. 

We have three more visits to Marriott resorts this year. I don't plan on doing an owners update until after Marriott releases some form of official word about any changes to it's product. It will be interesting to see what they propose but, in the end, I'm pretty satisfied with our ownership and exchanges with I.I., even if those exchanges might need to be outside the Marriott system in the future.


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> It appears to be taking a long time for Marriott to release any change to their reservation program. I'd like to assume that is an indicator that it will be a well thought out program and one worthy of current owners participation.



While I agree with most of what you've posted, I do wonder about this, in light of what I can only assume was also a well thought out program- their Asia Pacific points program. We can only hope that their extra time and effort was placed into reconsidering many of the issues with that program, including costs, trading inequities, etc.. 

I believe that "well thought out program," if introduced on a large scale system-wide, would potentially be disastrous for the brand.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> While I agree with most of what you've posted, I do wonder about this, in light of what I can only assume was also a well thought out program- their Asia Pacific points program. We can only hope that their extra time and effort was placed into reconsidering many of the issues with that program, including costs, trading inequities, etc..
> 
> I believe that "well thought out program," if introduced on a large scale system-wide, would potentially be disastrous for the brand.



From what I've been able to decipher about the AP program, for that market, it appears to work rather well. You have to keep in mind that there weren't enough resorts and the owners there had travel habits that didn't fit the profile of the typical American or European tourist. Rather than 7 night vacations they tended to want a couple of days at a time. Couple that with to few resorts and they had to come up with something of value for that market. It appears the AP program, which seems to include hotel stays using their points, works well in that market. 

The fear is the assumption that Marriott will try to put the same program in place with American and European owners. I might be wrong in assuming that Marriott understands there's a difference in travel habits but, I'm pretty sure they know there's a difference.

If Marriott was going to use the AP program as a template for everything else, it probably wouldn't take so long to announce any new program. No, I'm betting they realize the difference and have had to spend a good amount of time studying what they think will work best in this market for both their sales goals as well as maintaining owner satisfaction. Owner satisfaction goes a long ways towards selling more units to current owners as well as getting referals from current owners. Surely most of us believe Marriott is smart enough to grasp that basic concept and not torpedo their own success.

Marriott sales persons aren't necessarily so smart. I'm sure more than a few of them look at the AP program and automatically assume it will be the same program rolled out in June (or whenever it comes along). Thus in desperate moments they blurt out idiotic statements trying to make themselves look smart and, at the same time, thinking they might scare someone out of buying resale and buying retail from them. It's not a smart thing to do, I doubt it's sanctioned by Marriott but, if it makes one sale a week, sales managers are more likely than not to turn a blind eye to the practice.


----------



## bobcat

dougp26364 said:


> From what I've been able to decipher about the AP program, for that market, it appears to work rather well. You have to keep in mind that there weren't enough resorts and the owners there had travel habits that didn't fit the profile of the typical American or European tourist. Rather than 7 night vacations they tended to want a couple of days at a time. Couple that with to few resorts and they had to come up with something of value for that market. It appears the AP program, which seems to include hotel stays using their points, works well in that market.
> 
> The fear is the assumption that Marriott will try to put the same program in place with American and European owners. I might be wrong in assuming that Marriott understands there's a difference in travel habits but, I'm pretty sure they know there's a difference.
> 
> If Marriott was going to use the AP program as a template for everything else, it probably wouldn't take so long to announce any new program. No, I'm betting they realize the difference and have had to spend a good amount of time studying what they think will work best in this market for both their sales goals as well as maintaining owner satisfaction. Owner satisfaction goes a long ways towards selling more units to current owners as well as getting referals from current owners. Surely most of us believe Marriott is smart enough to grasp that basic concept and not torpedo their own success.
> 
> Marriott sales persons aren't necessarily so smart. I'm sure more than a few of them look at the AP program and automatically assume it will be the same program rolled out in June (or whenever it comes along). Thus in desperate moments they blurt out idiotic statements trying to make themselves look smart and, at the same time, thinking they might scare someone out of buying resale and buying retail from them. It's not a smart thing to do, I doubt it's sanctioned by Marriott but, if it makes one sale a week, sales managers are more likely than not to turn a blind eye to the practice.



June is not far off. I guess we will see what happens. I still say, if owners do not give in their weeks to the program several weeks will not be open for points use.


----------



## taffy19

I don't remember who told me this as I have asked several people already but there was talk of having a third choice now.  We have the week long exchange system now plus the MRPs but you would have to give up your whole timeshare week for that as it is today.

The third choice would be that you give up only a part of your week and combine your travel with another partional timeshare week or in combination with a hotel stay which we are doing now but you would have the choice to make the timeshare stay less than a week which may be ideal if you are short of vacation time which may be the case for many people but not for TUG members.

It may be better than we all anticipate and certainly more flexible but it will cost more money so is profitable for the Marriott.  I am curious what the company will roll out so will listen to their new plan if and when it comes out.


----------



## AceValenta

The other question, do they make you give up your deeded unit? If they do, does it expire at a certain date?


----------



## taffy19

GaryDouglas said:


> My contact at MOC/MMO said a few weeks ago that they should be selling out (I assume the Napili units), for the most part, by June. Prior to that, their staff would go through training in preparation of the new system. After that, no more week units will be available.


This is exactly what our sales lady told us too yesterday and that no more deeds will be sold after that. I even asked her how would they be so sure that the whole inventory would be sold by then. I asked her too if that meant that it will be points only but she had no details or would not discuss it. I have a feeling that changes are coming.

We asked her to see one of the oceanfront units at the main resort and were blown away by the view and the roomy balconies.  This resort sells itself as we noticed some people buying or reading a contract.  They sell other locations from here.

They still offer a 20% discount but the incentive will change tomorrow and there may be a price increase as that was mentioned too. Some other TUGgers have posted this too and I will find out later this week what the changes are.

All in all I am not any wiser but announcements should be coming soon.


----------



## dougp26364

bobcat said:


> June is not far off. I guess we will see what happens. I still say, if owners do not give in their weeks to the program several weeks will not be open for points use.



And you may very well be correct. It's one of the reasons I don't see Marriott adopting the AP program for the U.S. and European ownerships. The other reason is that, since the AP program is already on the table, it just wouldn't take so long to introduce it into the remaining markets. Basically, my opinion is, that if they try to introduce a similar plan, it will fail and, like you're pointing out, there won't be enough units in the program for it to be effective for a long time. 

Even though June has been tossed out as the introduction date, I don't believe there's really any firm evidence that will really happen. Something a salesman said while sitting at the round table doesn't qualify for me as evidence. I'm curious, a little anxious to see something new but, I'm not holding my breath at this point in time.


----------



## dioxide45

timeos2 said:


> I'm interested in what exactly the difference in available inventory is if the week goes to II (or RCI or TPI or SFX,etc) - maybe broken into two, small 1 BR deposits that greatly devalue the unit IMO - or if the week goes to points and gets broken into 3/4 days of use? Either way the week is gone for the "regular" weeks user as the owner of that week has used it as they see fit, which is their absolute right. Any points system Marriott decides to offer is just another exchange, but with a different method of deposit and access. The week is no more or less used in points than any other trade. It is still gone from inventory.



Well, let me explain. If there ends up being two distinct systems. The points system for those that opt in to the new internal program, those weeks obtained from points users won't be available in II for those that opt to stay with the old system. So for those trying to trade in II, there will indeed be fewer weeks available, thus less inventory.


----------



## timeos2

dioxide45 said:


> Well, let me explain. If there ends up being two distinct systems. The points system for those that opt in to the new internal program, those weeks obtained from points users won't be available in II for those that opt to stay with the old system. So for those trying to trade in II, there will indeed be fewer weeks available, thus less inventory.



OK - if you are trading through II and a different exchange company gets the time (already possible) then the II inventory will be impacted negatively. But II already has no guaranteed access (it is the owners choice each year to deposit or not) and then they further reduce availability by giving preference to certain groups prior to general availability. So the average amount of available inventory may fall for II but it was never guaranteed, always optional and very hit and miss. If you depend on that for your trades it was never reliable and may become less so. One of the big advantages to any internal system will be the absolute availability of inventory (it is usually committed for XX years or even forever in any points based system) vs the hit and miss of weeks. That alone makes it far more reliable and easier to get exactly what you want than weeks/II can.


----------



## DanCali

iconnections said:


> They still offer a 20% discount but *the incentive will change tomorrow* and there may be a price increase as that was mentioned too... Some other TUGgers have posted this too and I will find out later this week what the changes are.
> 
> All in all I am not any wiser but announcements should be coming soon.



Isn't that always the case that things will change tomorrow unless you buy today? The fun part is actually checking in with the salesperson the next day


----------



## DanCali

timeos2 said:


> One of the big advantages to any internal system will be the absolute availability of inventory (it is usually committed for XX years or even forever in any points based system) vs the hit and miss of weeks. That alone makes it far more reliable and easier to get exactly what you want than weeks/II can.



I'm not sure how you can say this. Take a system like Starwood's... if Harborside and St. John summer week owners were allocated relatively few Staroptions (points) and choose to use or rent their units rather than exchange for a 1BR in Cancun or Hawaii, where would the inventory for Starwood summer exchanges in the Carribean come from? And the very little available inventory is usually gone at 9:01am 8 months out.

I asked an owner services rep one time how often can I call in to check for cancellations and was told I can all as much as I like but should probably stop if I get exasperated or I'd hate my ownership...

In a points system once the good inventory is reserved it is not coming back... Personally, I prefer the current Marriott system where it is virtually guaranteed that good weeks from most resorts will be deposited in II. That's the reason I bought Marriott.


----------



## Dean

timeos2 said:


> OK - if you are trading through II and a different exchange company gets the time (already possible) then the II inventory will be impacted negatively. But II already has no guaranteed access (it is the owners choice each year to deposit or not) and then they further reduce availability by giving preference to certain groups prior to general availability. So the average amount of available inventory may fall for II but it was never guaranteed, always optional and very hit and miss. If you depend on that for your trades it was never reliable and may become less so. One of the big advantages to any internal system will be the absolute availability of inventory (it is usually committed for XX years or even forever in any points based system) vs the hit and miss of weeks. That alone makes it far more reliable and easier to get exactly what you want than weeks/II can.


Plus for high demand inventory, it's already ONLY available to other Marriott owners so you're simply talking who gets the available Marriott inventory among the various Marriott owners.  I would expect a significant reduction of demand in II as well as a reduction in inventory.  Whether the reduction in each is balanced is the question.  I wouldn't at all be surprised if the available high end inventory is reduced less than the demand is reduced.  The reality is we really won't know because we don't really know where we're starting other than a few limited pieces of info related to exchanges we've gotten in the past and what we've seen others report they got.  

Ultimately I suspect i'll depend on how any new system works including who has access.  It is entirely possible that the order of preference for a new system will change and those at the top of the trading ladder may not be with a new system.  Still, those of us willing to invest time and well placed dollars to get ahead will likely still be able to do so.  It might be like when Fairfield changed over from weeks to points.  Initially it seemed there was no impact but currently being a fixed week owner in that system is quite a bit different than being a points owner.


----------



## Dean

DanCali said:


> In a points system once the good inventory is reserved it is not coming back...


I'm not sure that's the case at all.  I own 4 different points systems and they are all different.  With some inventory opens up all the time, with others once it's gone it's basically gone.


----------



## taffy19

*Prices did go up today*



DanCali said:


> Isn't that always the case that things will change tomorrow unless you buy today? The fun part is actually checking in with the salesperson the next day


The sales department at the Maui Ocean Club wasn't kidding when our sales lady told us on Monday that prices were going up later this week. I got a new price sheet today so have the increased prices right in front of me. 

Marriott must feel confident that they will sell their limited inventory on or before their projected sell out date.  They were busy with tours today so I didn't ask any questions if other resorts had price increases too.


----------



## timeos2

*Doesn't mean a thing*



iconnections said:


> The sales department at the Maui Ocean Club wasn't kidding when our sales lady told us on Monday that prices were going up later this week. I got a new price sheet today so have the increased prices right in front of me.
> 
> Marriott must feel confident that they will sell their limited inventory on or before their projected sell out date.  They were busy with tours today so I didn't ask any questions if other resorts had price increases too.



Is there a more meaningless number than Developers timeshare prices sheets? I don't think so.  It is all smoke & mirrors and can change in a moment. 

IF you really wanted to buy retail and offered "yesterday's" price (or even last month's) I will guarantee you will be given the "deal".  Those prices mean nothing.


----------



## Fredm

timeos2 said:


> Is there a more meaningless number than Developers timeshare prices sheets? I don't think so.  It is all smoke & mirrors and can change in a moment.
> 
> IF you really wanted to buy retail and offered "yesterday's" price (or even last month's) I will guarantee you will be given the "deal".  Those prices mean nothing.



I have never heard of a single instance of Marriott selling for less than the published price. They may tinker with the incentives, but not the price.


----------



## scrapngen

Fredm said:


> I have never heard of a single instance of Marriott selling for less than the published price. They may tinker with the incentives, but not the price.



Several people here can tell you that for the last number of months, Marriott has been selling for 20% off the listed (published) price. We got our 51, 52 fixed weeks that way at Waiohai... (I'm not bragging that it was a good deal, but they are harder to come by so we went developer...)

Just sayin


----------



## Fredm

scrapngen said:


> Several people here can tell you that for the last number of months, Marriott has been selling for 20% off the listed (published) price. We got our 51, 52 fixed weeks that way at Waiohai... (I'm not bragging that it was a good deal, but they are harder to come by so we went developer...)
> 
> Just sayin



Right. The 20% discount WAS the published purchase price. Marriott charged everyone the same price. They did not negotiate, or sell the same thing, at the same time, to different buyers at different prices.

My comment was in response to this statement:
"IF you really wanted to buy retail and offered "yesterday's" price (or even last month's) I will guarantee you will be given the "deal". Those prices mean nothing."


----------



## scrapngen

Fredm said:


> Right. The 20% discount WAS the published purchase price. Marriott charged everyone the same price. They did not negotiate, or sell the same thing, at the same time, to different buyers at different prices.



OK, see where you're coming from...but it was a lower price than before, and the 20% was not showing on the listed sheets if you were to ask what the prices were for any given resort.


----------



## m61376

scrapngen said:


> OK, see where you're coming from...but it was a lower price than before, and the 20% was not showing on the listed sheets if you were to ask what the prices were for any given resort.



No, but they were an advertised "special promotion" and available for a limited time to everyone. Marriott keeps the prices stable between customers buying during the same time period. Until the economic downturn, special sales were unheard of and the prices only went up. What did vary from week to week were the incentives, generally the number of points, or perhaps a bonus week, etc..


----------



## taffy19

*Talking about devaluation in the original post*

We found out this week that the MOC has been devalued from a category 7 to a category 6.  All Hawaiian resorts are category 6 now because less people are requesting a hotel on the Islands.

When we checked in last Saturday, the front desk told us that the original resort is 99% full and the new towers 98%.  The majority are owners.  Interesting is that the State or county doesn't like timeshare owners and sock it to us but we are the people who support their economy right now.


----------



## Dean

scrapngen said:


> OK, see where you're coming from...but it was a lower price than before, and the 20% was not showing on the listed sheets if you were to ask what the prices were for any given resort.


True, but I don't recall a single instance where they cut the price to an individual other than maybe if they were already in negotiations and the prices went up in the interim but Marriott is fairly consistent on their pricing, unlike many timeshare systems.


----------



## LAR

*Marriott & Interval - Change coming in June?*

*[merged]*


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,

I just got back from Grande Vista.  During their sales pitch, the rep explained that Marriott and II were 'parting ways' in June and that Marriott was going to handle all the trades internally so as to capture all the exchange fees etc.  This was an attempt to devalue the resale market and increase the value that converting deposits to points might offer.

Did I miss something?!!


----------



## FlyerBobcat

LAR said:


> Hello,
> 
> I just got back from Grande Vista.  During their sales pitch, the rep explained that Marriott and II were 'parting ways' in June and that Marriott was going to handle all the trades internally so as to capture all the exchange fees etc.  This was an attempt to devalue the resale market and increase the value that converting deposits to points might offer.
> 
> Did I miss something?!!



Did you see this long thread ?


----------



## LAR

Jeez, where are the Cliff Notes!


----------



## winger

iconnections said:


> We found out this week that the MOC has been devalued from a category 7 to a category 6.  All Hawaiian resorts are category 6 now because less people are requesting a hotel on the Islands.
> 
> When we checked in last Saturday, the front desk told us that the original resort is 99% full and the new towers 98%.  The majority are owners.  Interesting is that the State or county doesn't like timeshare owners and sock it to us but we are the people who support their economy right now.


The following four are listed as downgraded to a category 5 !
Marriott's Kauai Beach Club
Kauai Marriott Resort
Waikiki Marriott hotel
Waiohai Beach Club 

Also, whenever government gets involved, usually something does not sound reasonable (to say it a nice way).


----------



## mlpmd56

*Points????*

Ok, I have resisted this so far, but have now decided to add my 2 cents to the over 800 replies.  Ouch!  Anyway, I bought a Marriott Kauai Beach club ocean front for a killer price on ebay maybe 6 months ago.  I did this with full knowledge that things could change, Marriott does things that adversely affect owners, etc.  I love to go to Hawaii twice a year, so to me this was a no brainer as I love being ocean front.  Conjecture being what it is, we have NO IDEA what is really going to happen in June, if anything.  BUT, with Marriott's penchant for downgrading categories, devaluing points, etc., I wonder why anyone would sign up for a new program when it is guaranteed to be worth less in the future.....I bought my week to use, or maybe to trade to the Caribbean on occasion, so I feel pretty safe.  From listening to everyone complain about how their points are worth less all the time, I can't imagine I would convert even if it were free!  And as a resale owner, I am sure they will want to ding me significantly if I would sign up.  In any case, if I am "forced" to use my week every year, so be it!  Or I can always reserve and rent it to someone else, then use the cash whenever/wherever I want.  Since I bought for so low a price, I am not that worried.  However, I really do empathize with those who paid high developer prices.  Marcy


----------



## Swice

*point values*

Just as a point of information...   Marriott Rewards points are currently points to be used at "hotels" or redeemed for other "valuable" prizes like toasters and tv's.         For the sake of discussion, let's call them "hotel points."

Yes, Marriott did change the "values" of some hotel properties... examples in Hawaii and Paris.     

It's my understanding Marriott assigns hotel values based on a number of things... including the number of free nights redeemed.    

Hawaii and Paris hotels did not give away as many "free" nights last year because of the slump of travel (economy).    You can bet your last Marriott point, the hotels that were "de-valued" will quickly INCREASE in value when more people start redeeming free nights at those properties again.   The change in values had nothing to do with timeshares.

It remains to be seen if we start talking about Marriott TIMESHARE points in June and if/how those TIMESHARE points will be folded into the Marriott Rewards (hotel points) program.


----------



## taffy19

i have a feeling that MRPs and timeshare points are going to mix with each other as they were mentioning to us of having additional choices even at the front desk so they are realigning the points with each other, I believe.  

People, who convert, may stay several days at a resort and several days at a hotel but how are they going to combine this successfully with people, who want to stay for a whole week?  This must be a difficult task with two different groups of timeshare owners as well as MRPs' people too unless the week owners have a head start in making reservations.

Hopefully, we will know soon but people who bought for use (like Marcy at the KBC) in the right season and with the desired view, should not be affected either way.  She was a smart consumer but will the Marriott give the best oceanfront views to the person with the biggest point package as they will control everything?  If view is not important then this is no issue. 


Swice said:


> Just as a point of information...   Marriott Rewards points are currently points to be used at "hotels" or redeemed for other "valuable" prizes like toasters and tv's.         For the sake of discussion, let's call them "hotel points."
> 
> Yes, Marriott did change the "values" of some hotel properties... examples in Hawaii and Paris.
> 
> It's my understanding Marriott assigns hotel values based on a number of things... including the number of free nights redeemed.
> 
> Hawaii and Paris hotels did not give away as many "free" nights last year because of the slump of travel (economy).    You can bet your last Marriott point, the hotels that were "de-valued" will quickly INCREASE in value when more people start redeeming free nights at those properties again.   The change in values had nothing to do with timeshares.
> 
> It remains to be seen if we start talking about Marriott TIMESHARE points in June and if/how those TIMESHARE points will be folded into the Marriott Rewards (hotel points) program.


----------



## AceValenta

*This one makes me laugh...*



LAR said:


> *[merged]*
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hello,
> 
> I just got back from Grande Vista.  During their sales pitch, the rep explained that Marriott and II were 'parting ways' in June and that Marriott was going to handle all the trades internally so as to capture all the exchange fees etc.  This was an attempt to devalue the resale market and increase the value that converting deposits to points might offer.
> 
> Did I miss something?!!




What is the saying, "If their lips are moving, they must be lying!"

From the March 10th Business Week:

MIAMI--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Interval International, a prominent worldwide provider of vacation services and an operating segment of Interval Leisure Group, Inc. (Nasdaq: IILG), today announced the renewal of its master affiliation agreement with Marriott Vacation Club International, the timeshare division of Marriott International, Inc. (NYSE:MAR). The multi-year agreement extends the relationship first established in 1990 between two leaders in the shared ownership industry, each highly regarded for their commitment to quality, exemplary customer service, and innovation.


----------



## PerryM

*Yes butt....*



AceValenta said:


> *This one makes me laugh...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the saying, "If their lips are moving, they must be lying!"
> 
> From the March 10th Business Week:
> 
> MIAMI--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Interval International, a prominent worldwide provider of vacation services and an operating segment of Interval Leisure Group, Inc. (Nasdaq: IILG), today announced the renewal of its master affiliation agreement with Marriott Vacation Club International, the timeshare division of Marriott International, Inc. (NYSE:MAR). The multi-year agreement extends the relationship first established in 1990 between two leaders in the shared ownership industry, each highly regarded for their commitment to quality, exemplary customer service, and innovation.



But that just means that Marriott renewed the old agreement which has a clause in it which allows Marriott to offer an internal exchange system anytime they want to their owners.

The old 24-day Marriott window is probably there and hopefully at the end of the 24-days folks like me get anything left before it goes to II.  (I own a Gold Summit Watch)

Just remember folks that if Marriott wanted a true internal exchange system all they had to do was make 1 little change to the new contract:

24 -> 120

But that's not what Marriott has in mind is it?


----------



## Latravel

mlpmd56 said:


> ... I really do empathize with those who paid high developer prices.  Marcy



No need to empathize... of all groups represented here, those who purchased from the developer are probably the most protected.


----------



## Latravel

AceValenta said:


> *This one makes me laugh...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the saying, "If their lips are moving, they must be lying!"
> 
> From the March 10th Business Week:
> 
> MIAMI--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Interval International, a prominent worldwide provider of vacation services and an operating segment of Interval Leisure Group, Inc. (Nasdaq: IILG), today announced the renewal of its master affiliation agreement with Marriott Vacation Club International, the timeshare division of Marriott International, Inc. (NYSE:MAR). The multi-year agreement extends the relationship first established in 1990 between two leaders in the shared ownership industry, each highly regarded for their commitment to quality, exemplary customer service, and innovation.




How do you know the original agreement that was renewed, didn't include the right to terminate at any time?  Didn't include a clause that Marriott could make changes to suit changing business needs?


----------



## NWL

Latravel said:


> No need to empathize... of all groups represented here, those who purchased from the developer are probably the most protected.



Nice one!   

Cheers!


----------



## dioxide45

Latravel said:


> How do you know the original agreement that was renewed, didn't include the right to terminate at any time?  Didn't include a clause that Marriott could make changes to suit changing business needs?



I am sure the ability to terminate at any time has a rather high price tag associated with it. Marriott has no need to terminate their agreement with II, and what the rep said about II was indeed false. Marriott wouldn't have taken the time to renew their contract for many years only to terminate it and pay any penalties associated with termination.


----------



## DanCali

Latravel said:


> No need to empathize... of all groups represented here, those who purchased from the developer are probably the most protected.



If they do anything to destroy resale value (e.g future resale owners can't join) do they reimburse retail buyers for the loss in equity? I think not... So what protection is there for retail buyers? It may be cheaper to join a yet to be announced new system, but imo the new system is a downgrade from a great existing system (it's hard to make a system any better) so everyone loses when some people will be tempted to join.


----------



## timeos2

*The truth may be in the middle*



dioxide45 said:


> I am sure the ability to terminate at any time has a rather high price tag associated with it. Marriott has no need to terminate their agreement with II, and what the rep said about II was indeed false. Marriott wouldn't have taken the time to renew their contract for many years only to terminate it and pay any penalties associated with termination.



There are no penalties involved in terminating an II contract (unless Marriott has one significantly different than every other affiliate - not likely). Plus they can never really "terminate" the relationship as each & every owner that was sold a unit with II affiliation has the right to remain with II (or RCI) if they desire. What they can end is any exclusive tie or any preference they chose to give II and move it to another group even their own. 

So, as usual, the weasel talk may be overstating things but there could very well be an underlying truth.  It is extremely likely that Marriott is going on its own and II will no longer be the primary, favored exchange for Marriott as an organization.  What the owners want to do individually is up to them. If that can be called terminating II then so be it. It's as close as they can ever come really.


----------



## rthib

*This is all so funny.*

Marriott is a public company.
If a major change like this was going to happen, who would know about it:
The analysts who watch Marriott for anything that might impact the stock - nope, no word from them.
The day traders who would use something like this to manipulate the stock - nope.
The industry press that covers both time-shares and hospitality - nope.
Executives and others who know that letting someone know about this before it was public would be a material breach - nope.

So of course the people who would most likely to know what is happening with a multi-year, huge financial partnership would be a sales rep at a time-share.
:hysterical:


----------



## pspercy

_State or county doesn't like timeshare owners and sock it to us_

Yes indeed, I noticed the big rise in the property tax component of the MF this year vs last year


----------



## pspercy

_. . they should be selling out (I assume the Napili units), for the most part, by June._

Wow, seem to remember being told (last Fall) that some of those units required two or three week package sales - sales guy said up around $400K.
They are drop dead gorgeous tho' 

Amazing in this economy and, just pure nosiness, I wonder what their commission rate is ?


----------



## taffy19

rthib said:


> Marriott is a public company.
> If a major change like this was going to happen, who would know about it:
> The analysts who watch Marriott for anything that might impact the stock - nope, no word from them.
> The day traders who would use something like this to manipulate the stock - nope.
> The industry press that covers both time-shares and hospitality - nope.
> Executives and others who know that letting someone know about this before it was public would be a material breach - nope.
> 
> So of course the people who would most likely to know what is happening with a multi-year, huge financial partnership would be a sales rep at a time-share.
> :hysterical:


You have a point there but it isn't close to June yet and the Marriott may still be working on the details or scrap the whole idea.  We just have to wait and see a little longer.  Something is in the air because the rumors do not go away but keep popping up everywhere now.


----------



## Fredm

*Guidance*



rthib said:


> Marriott is a public company.
> If a major change like this was going to happen, who would know about it:
> The analysts who watch Marriott for anything that might impact the stock - nope, no word from them.
> The day traders who would use something like this to manipulate the stock - nope.
> The industry press that covers both time-shares and hospitality - nope.
> Executives and others who know that letting someone know about this before it was public would be a material breach - nope.
> 
> So of course the people who would most likely to know what is happening with a multi-year, huge financial partnership would be a sales rep at a time-share.
> :hysterical:



I am with you!

The most recent recurring rumor (from sales execs) is that Marriott is closing down sales  2 weeks in June for sales training on the new points system.

So, I guess that means no marketing tours during those 2 weeks.
Marriott would have had to know that at least six months ago in order to not book tours during this time frame.

It also means that they were in a position to offer "guidance" to the investment community in the last quarterly conference call regarding upcoming developments that would affect their timeshare business.
They did not. Yet, they did announce plans to double Marriott's hotel presence in Europe by 2015, on March 13 this year.

The rumored points program is not a national security issue. It's simply business, if true. There is absolutely no reason for it to be cloaked in secrecy if it is part of a public corporation's business plan.
Just like expanding hotels in Europe by 2015. If it's real, it's reported.

The next quarterly conference call is just around the corner. April 22.
One week from today will be the very last opportunity for Marriott to disclose its plan to the investment community and its stock holders, if any of this is real. My guess is that if it were, they would have already said so.

I know it is more fun to chase ghosts, speculate about the harm to owners, class action lawsuits, violation of the CC&R's, etc, etc. 
How about the REAL issue of not reporting material business matters to its shareholders, and the investment community?


----------



## PerryM

*A simple test....*



DanCali said:


> If they do anything to destroy resale value (e.g future resale owners can't join) do they reimburse retail buyers for the loss in equity? I think not... So what protection is there for retail buyers? It may be cheaper to join a yet to be announced new system, but imo the new system is a downgrade from a great existing system (it's hard to make a system any better) so everyone loses when some people will be tempted to join.



Marriott is going to take a perfectly good internal exchange system of 24-days at II and foist a radically different reservation Point system and the outcome will be:


Fewer exchanges (II and Marriott split owners)
Increased cost - membership fee charge per week
Decreased choices - can't get super upgrade options anymore with Marriott
Decrease in resale value - reduce all resales by the nontransferable membership fee
Scarcity of high demand holiday weeks in II system - Marriott will snap up all holiday weeks for their system

Net net class action lawsuits will plague Marriott and tarnish their reputation for 5+ years at the least.  You know the lawsuits are being planned right now and will be filed the day of release.

And for what?  So we pay big bucks for a worse exchange system and Marriott gets to super saturate all holidays at all Marriotts as a sales gimmick?

It's going to be easy to measure how "Owner oriented" Marriott is with how much they charge for memberships in their new scheme - the higher the membership fee the more this is for Marriott's benefit and not the owners.


----------



## puckmanfl

Starting to sound like a Perry convert...

Here is what concerns me regarding "points"

Hypothetically let's assume Plat Hawaii, Aruba, ski (add your own favorite) here are worth 1000 pts.  As an owner you always have access to your home week and can "book" it as always.  The developer can never take this away, BUT they can raise the number of points needed to exchange to other weeks (devalue).  In other words the developer can say "great, you have your home week, but if you want to exchange in to any other plat week" it will cost you 1250 points.  The developer always says "we just have an obligation to provide home week usage" we don't have to protect exchanges!!  It could be 1500 points for a "resale" exchange.  The developer says "we would be happy to SELL you some more points" so you can exchange!!!!


----------



## PerryM

*Linear Programming - Not!*



puckmanfl said:


> Starting to sound like a Perry convert...
> 
> Here is what concerns me regarding "points"
> 
> Hypothetically let's assume Plat Hawaii, Aruba, ski (add your own favorite) here are worth 1000 pts.  As an owner you always have access to your home week and can "book" it as always.  The developer can never take this away, BUT they can raise the number of points needed to exchange to other weeks (devalue).  In other words the developer can say "great, you have your home week, but if you want to exchange in to any other plat week" it will cost you 1250 points.  The developer always says "we just have an obligation to provide home week usage" we don't have to protect exchanges!!  It could be 1500 points for a "resale" exchange.  The developer says "we would be happy to SELL you some more points" so you can exchange!!!!



I'm assuming the Marriott folks have called in Industrial Engineers (IE) to work on their biggest challenge - how to sell more Points to the folks who join.  That IE used several simulation tools, one of which is Linear Programming .

Linear Programming is a math tool which is used all the time to solve complex problems like FedExp has every day - what's the best route for our trucks that will save us the most gas/diesel and less driver hours.  LP can easily be done on an Excel spreadsheet where you set up the various parameters and it runs thousands of iterations to find the most efficient solution.

Well you can do the opposite just as easily - find the least efficient usage of Points which will result in the maximum shortage of successful exchanges.  Basically you will always come up a few Points short in the exchange you desire and Marriott will happily provide a solution - buy more Points from them.

It's like the TV show "Numb3rs" but where the bad guys use math to defeat the good guys.

So get ready to be a few Points short of your goals with the new exchange system and Marriott to "help" you out.


----------



## Latravel

DanCali said:


> If they do anything to destroy resale value (e.g future resale owners can't join) do they reimburse retail buyers for the loss in equity? I think not... So what protection is there for retail buyers? It may be cheaper to join a yet to be announced new system, but imo the new system is a downgrade from a great existing system (it's hard to make a system any better) so everyone loses when some people will be tempted to join.



I feel like a tape recorder.  If you purchased "retail", you signed many documents stating that your timeshare is not an investment, that it is to be used for personal enjoyment, that there is no implied or stated resale value.  

The protection doesn't cover resale value (because, in a sense, Marriott doesn't recognize resale value).  The protection covers future changes.


----------



## Latravel

PerryM said:


> I'm assuming the Marriott folks have called in Industrial Engineers (IE) to work on their biggest challenge - how to sell more Points to the folks who join.  That IE used several simulation tools, one of which is Linear Programming .
> 
> Linear Programming is a math tool which is used all the time to solve complex problems like FedExp has every day - what's the best route for our trucks that will save us the most gas/diesel and less driver hours.  LP can easily be done on an Excel spreadsheet where you set up the various parameters and it runs thousands of iterations to find the most efficient solution.
> 
> Well you can do the opposite just as easily - find the least efficient usage of Points which will result in the maximum shortage of successful exchanges.  Basically you will always come up a few Points short in the exchange you desire and Marriott will happily provide a solution - buy more Points from them.
> 
> It's like the TV show "Numb3rs" but where the bad guys use math to defeat the good guys.
> 
> So get ready to be a few Points short of your goals with the new exchange system and Marriott to "help" you out.



Hmmm.... Interesting theory but i'm not sure i'd use linear programming here (i'm an industrial engineer).  There are too many variables (such as emotion) with respect to sales that can't be captured in an equation.  

Usually companies hire Industrial Engineers to maximize efficiency, reduce wait times, simplify processes to improve a customer's experience.  Trying to get people to buy more points is usually a marketing/sales issue.


----------



## PerryM

*Separation of powers....*



Latravel said:


> Hmmm.... Interesting theory but i'm not sure i'd use linear programming here (i'm an industrial engineer).  There are too many variables (such as emotion) with respect to sales that can't be captured in an equation.
> 
> Usually companies hire Industrial Engineers to maximize efficiency, reduce wait times, simplify processes to improve a customer's experience.  Trying to get people to buy more points is usually a marketing/sales issue.



One thing is going to be for sure - how Marriott comes up with how many Points a reservation and unit are worth will NEVER be disclosed.  It will be a secret since it is a marketing gimmick that has but one purpose - to bias the new exchange system as a sales tool.

Initially Marriott will be on their best behavior but give it 6 months and things will start to change and escalate towards the need for owners to buy more Points to make the scheme work for the owner.

This is what you get when you place the power of deciding who gets to make an exchange with the same company that sells them the solution to the problem.

This has never been a problem with II - its still a big secret how things really work but II doesn't sell the solution.


----------



## BocaBum99

PerryM said:


> I'm assuming the Marriott folks have called in Industrial Engineers (IE) to work on their biggest challenge - how to sell more Points to the folks who join.  That IE used several simulation tools, one of which is Linear Programming .
> 
> Linear Programming is a math tool which is used all the time to solve complex problems like FedExp has every day - what's the best route for our trucks that will save us the most gas/diesel and less driver hours.  LP can easily be done on an Excel spreadsheet where you set up the various parameters and it runs thousands of iterations to find the most efficient solution.
> 
> Well you can do the opposite just as easily - find the least efficient usage of Points which will result in the maximum shortage of successful exchanges.  Basically you will always come up a few Points short in the exchange you desire and Marriott will happily provide a solution - buy more Points from them.
> 
> It's like the TV show "Numb3rs" but where the bad guys use math to defeat the good guys.
> 
> So get ready to be a few Points short of your goals with the new exchange system and Marriott to "help" you out.



You have to be kidding me.  You must have picked up a journal and just read about Linear Programming.  Did you happen to read about Narendra Karmarkar?  He worked in my company in the 1980's when I got my Master's Degree in Operations Research.

As an expert in this area, I can tell you that the Flux Capacitor would be a better tool to use than Linear Programming to solve Marriott's Points system problem.


----------



## GregT

I think Perry's got a very valid point about escalation in points for future resorts, and ability of a developer to manipulate it.  This is one of the reasons I believe deeds will retain value in the future.

Take HGVC as a points example.  They had a standard points requirement of 7,000 for a 2BR.   However, the most recent properties built (Kings Land, Grand Waikikian), magically require much more points for a 2BR -- harder to get into those properties for an existing HGVC owner, but if you buy at Kings Land, you can vacation for 10 days at Hilton Hawaiian Village.

Same thing happened at Worldmark -- they had a nice system of good properties that reliably required 10,000 credits for a 2BR -- then they build in Hawaii, and justified 12,000 credits for a 2BR because it was Hawaii.

Well, now everything in Worldmark requires more than 10,000 points for a 2BR in a new property, and they sell the existing system to the prospective buyer (and they build huge properties with lots of credits to sell)

It's going to be very interesting to see what Marriott does -- however I remain confident that this group of smart TUGgers will find the loopholes and arbitrage the system.


One other point, with respect to Marriott's disclosure requirements as a public company -- I do not believe that changing to an internal exchange system/points system (either in lieu of or in conjunction with II) would meet the materiality threshold for filing a Form 8-K.  I'm not even sure that the continuation of the II relationship is that important to Marriott -- but definitely material to II, who may have been the ones who drove the press release.  I've been the CFO of public companies and I think this is just not at all relevant to the stockholders of Marriott or to its on-going operations.  It's just interesting to us.

Good luck to all,

Greg


----------



## winger

Swice said:


> ...
> It's my understanding Marriott assigns hotel values based on a number of things... including the number of free nights redeemed.
> 
> Hawaii and Paris hotels did not give away as many "free" nights last year because of the slump of travel (economy).    ....



With the recent downgrading of at least four Hawaiian resorts from cat 6 to 5, your point holds.

Unsure about Paris though. It seems none of them went down. If memory serves me up, a couple went from 7 to 8 and stayed there (CE and the other hotel near the Louvre).


----------



## puckmanfl

There is potential for irregularities if sales AND exchanges are controlled by one entity.

The new program will have the standard "rules subject to change without notice" disclaimer.  

An example of this was the elimination of BONUS MR points associated with MVCI financed developer purchases.  They "broke out" some fine print disclaimer as above!!!!


----------



## DanCali

I see. So your point is that since you signed that you just dont care if the resale values tank due to a new system? And neither should any other retail buyer (who is already down 50+%)?



Latravel said:


> I feel like a tape recorder.  If you purchased "retail", you signed many documents stating that your timeshare is not an investment, that it is to be used for personal enjoyment, that there is no implied or stated resale value.
> 
> The protection doesn't cover resale value (because, in a sense, Marriott doesn't recognize resale value).  The protection covers future changes.


----------



## PerryM

*The island of misfit timeshares...*



BocaBum99 said:


> You have to be kidding me.  You must have picked up a journal and just read about Linear Programming.  Did you happen to read about Narendra Karmarkar?  He worked in my company in the 1980's when I got my Master's Degree in Operations Research.
> 
> As an expert in this area, I can tell you that the Flux Capacitor would be a better tool to use than Linear Programming to solve Marriott's Points system problem.



I've not used LP for many years but when I did use it last my Excel cooked for a day to get the optimum result, I don't know why it couldn't be done here since the parameters are simple and so are the data.

But if you've got a bugaboo about LP I'm sure there are a number of tools that will all come up with the optimum Point value for maximum misfits of exchanges.

A simple misfit of a week 52 at MountainSide generating 50,000 Points and a week 52 at Summit Watch generating 49,500 would start it off just fine. Platinum week at MOC generating 46,000 points now means that no MOC Platinum owner can exchange into MountainSide or Summit Watch week 52.

This is what I'm getting at - misfits will be maximum for a sales tool and misfits would be minimum for an actual internal exchange system.

P.S.
This would be like having FedEx inviting Shell Oil Company to design their routing system - the routs would be as long as possible, as many left hand turns as possible, and driving by as many Shell gas stations as possible.

We can expect Marriott do to no less...

P.P.S.
If Marriott really did want an owner friendly system they simply could invite the Presidents of all the HOAs involved to a meeting where the Presidents could render an opinion on how the new exchange system would impact their resort and take a vote - if 51% vote in favor of the new system it would go forward, else it would be revamped.

I doubt Marriott would invite anyone but the sales managers of all the resorts.


----------



## James1975NY

PerryM said:


> One thing is going to be for sure - how Marriott comes up with how many Points a reservation and unit are worth will NEVER be disclosed.  It will be a secret since it is a marketing gimmick that has but one purpose - to bias the new exchange system as a sales tool.



 - How do they come up with the pricing for their units for sale?


----------



## James1975NY

PerryM said:


> A simple misfit of a week 52 at MountainSide generating 50,000 Points and a week 52 at Summit Watch generating 49,500 would start it off just fine. Platinum week at MOC generating 46,000 points now means that no MOC Platinum owner can exchange into MountainSide or Summit Watch week 52.
> 
> This is what I'm getting at - misfits will be maximum for a sales tool and misfits would be minimum for an actual internal exchange system.



There will certainly be some "misfits" in the new points program. For the most part it will be because it is new. There will be changes made along the way as there has been in other points programs based on supply and demand. Certainly, the "misfit" situation allows for more sales opportunities; however, at the same time, Marriott (if they are smart) will very much be focused on offering a program that for the most part works. The last thing they want to do is introduce a new points program that has too many "misfits". If they did not have a focus on offering/maintaining the program so that it is whole, it will die quickly.


----------



## PerryM

James1975NY said:


> - How do they come up with the pricing for their units for sale?



They consult the timeshare fairy.

My past analysis of Marriott concluded that whatever the cost to acquire a condo the sales must be 4 times as much.  E.g. 200 2-bedroom condos in a project that cost $80 M to build means each condo cost $400k and thus $1.6 M in sales are needed.

That was before real estate tanked out in 2007.


----------



## PerryM

*Marriott's thinking...*

Here is a chart that Marriott must stare at each night and decided now was the time to strike:



For the life of me it makes no sense to stop selling timeshares and start selling Points in an exchange club.


----------



## PerryM

*The Marriott Whipserer.....*



James1975NY said:


> There will certainly be some "misfits" in the new points program. For the most part it will be because it is new. There will be changes made along the way as there has been in other points programs based on supply and demand. Certainly, the "misfit" situation allows for more sales opportunities; however, at the same time, Marriott (if they are smart) will very much be focused on offering a program that for the most part works. The last thing they want to do is introduce a new points program that has too many "misfits". If they did not have a focus on offering/maintaining the program so that it is whole, it will die quickly.



To the vast majority of Marriott owners this is all Greek to them and they will simply follow whatever Marriott whispers in their ear.

That message will be "Buy more Points".


----------



## tlwmkw

You are all saying that they will just "sell more points" and put up the amount of points to stay at a given location.  They cannot sell more points than they actually have timeshares to accomodate (meaning points have to be balanced by available time)- i.e. they can't oversell any resort (sell more time than is actually available).  This was why DVC had to be very careful when they redid their points- Florida law is especially strict about this.  I think if this new system does come about the only people who will really need to worry are those who are in a resort that has sold very little so far (Lakeshore Reserve, the two other new Fla timeshares, and perhaps Las Vegas) and those who bought to trade.  I think many people, whether they are Tuggers or not, will be reluctant to shell out more $$ for something that they already paid a lot of money for and that they already pay high MF's on.  Personally I think this is all a storm in a teacup and won't really change anything very dramatically.  Who knows what will come?

tlwmkw


----------



## PerryM

*Just in time inventory is replaced with It Almost Works inventory..*



tlwmkw said:


> You are all saying that they will just "sell more points" and put up the amount of points to stay at a given location.  They cannot sell more points than they actually have timeshares to accomodate (meaning points have to be balanced by available time)- i.e. they can't oversell any resort (sell more time than is actually available).  This was why DVC had to be very careful when they redid their points- Florida law is especially strict about this.  I think if this new system does come about the only people who will really need to worry are those who are in a resort that has sold very little so far (Lakeshore Reserve, the two other new Fla timeshares, and perhaps Las Vegas) and those who bought to trade.  I think many people, whether they are Tuggers or not, will be reluctant to shell out more $$ for something that they already paid a lot of money for and that they already pay high MF's on.  Personally I think this is all a storm in a teacup and won't really change anything very dramatically.  Who knows what will come?
> 
> tlwmkw



Apples and oranges.

Disney sells Points Marriott still sells weeks that then are deposited into their own exchange system they cooked up.  

Marriott does NOT have to follow any accounting rules at all - they can simply adjust Points to make the whole thing sort of work.  Some of it will be proprietary and no one will know how it works.

Look at RCI and an example of how this will work - but an order of magnitude worse.  Granted they can't be so bad that multiple owners show up for the same reservation but beyond that who will know what's really going on?  

Big, big difference and why this is a marketers dream come true.


----------



## GregT

PerryM said:


> For the life of me it makes no sense to stop selling timeshares and start selling Points in an exchange club.



Perry, that may be a first for TUG -- charts??  Very nice!!

Seriously, it makes perfect sense for Marriott (from Marriott's perspective) to start selling points, versus selling timeshares.

This allows you to resell what is already built, so you do not have new development costs (just pick and choose the inventory that you want to ROFR so you have low acquisition costs for your inventory) and you have the stable revenue stream from all those participants who now pay $99/year for the ability to be in your points program.  Plus, you have your own version of Flexchange so instead of depositing your excess units into II and getting whatever is your portion of the exchange fee, you now get the rental fee from people who will pay $80/night for that otherwise empty unit.

And you are not dependent on timeshare sales to support your revenue -- you have a stable, recurring revenue stream.

Seriously, it's a great idea (from their perspective).    I don't expect them to be punitive about it and introduce a system that is detested, but I do expect them to maximize that opportunity for them.  I personally think we will find ways to benefit from the system.  

I do think it's going to make it much harder for you to maximize the trading ability of your Gold Summit Watch, because I think there will be fewer available units in II for you to get.  But I'm confident you'll find the weaknesses and will exploit them (I'll bet you a blue studio that you've found a way to maximize the system before the year is out).

But, you have to admit, from Marriott's perspective, it makes sense, and they have the appearance of responding to the needs of their customers (we wish you had a points system).

We want our cake and eat it too -- we want the flexibility of points, and yet the ability to keep exploiting the loopholes that we've found to date, in perpetuity.

Blue studio, Perry???


----------



## SueDonJ

I don't know why the idea of newer, better resorts having more value in an exchange system is a novel idea to some.  Isn't that how it works now in II?  Isn't that why we're always seeing posts here from folks asking if their 1BR week at XYZ resort will be a strong enough trader to pull a 1BR (or even better, a2BR!) week at ABC resort?

II is using a system wherein resorts/units are comparatively rated superior or inferior to one another - we just don't know what that system is.  And granted, II's system now allows for an inferior week to pull a superior one, if all the stars align and the superior week is not requested by someone who has deposited an equally-superior week, or if the superior week is only requested by one depositor.  It's true - within a system where weeks at XYZ resort are assigned 1,000 points value and ABC resort are 1,200, then the exchange which might be possible in II will not be possible in Marriott's internal exchange system.

But doesn't that make Marriott's proposed system MORE equitable than II's system?  Doesn't it better allow folks who own superior weeks to get similar value in exchange, whereas now in II they're mostly trading down?

And couldn't Marriott make allowances for the discrepancies by assigning points based on views as well as resort/#BR/season, which II doesn't do now, so that the total point values for all weeks would more closely match the actual value of what's owned?  Wouldn't that mean that your inferior-resort/1BR/oceanfront week could still get you into that superior-resort/1BR/gardenview week, or that superior-resort/studio/oceanfront week?  Couldn't such a system increase exchange options for all owners?

And finally, Marriott can and probably will include some sort of option similar to II's flexchange and Getaways, where requirements are relaxed and values are reduced for short-notice stays.  That's where the inequitable deal-of-the-century exchanges/weeks will be found, not throughout the entire exchange period as currently happens in II.


----------



## SueDonJ

tlwmkw said:


> You are all saying that they will just "sell more points" and put up the amount of points to stay at a given location.  They cannot sell more points than they actually have timeshares to accomodate (meaning points have to be balanced by available time)- i.e. they can't oversell any resort (sell more time than is actually available).  This was why DVC had to be very careful when they redid their points- Florida law is especially strict about this.  I think if this new system does come about the only people who will really need to worry are those who are in a resort that has sold very little so far (Lakeshore Reserve, the two other new Fla timeshares, and perhaps Las Vegas) and those who bought to trade.  I think many people, whether they are Tuggers or not, will be reluctant to shell out more $$ for something that they already paid a lot of money for and that they already pay high MF's on.  Personally I think this is all a storm in a teacup and won't really change anything very dramatically.  Who knows what will come?
> 
> tlwmkw



tlw, I get what you're saying about Disney having to keep the total number of points at each resort the same as when it was developed, with each reallocation across the resort calendars.  You're right, Marriott will have to determine total points for each of their resorts relative to intervals available, and then will not be able to increase that number.

However, I think what people are talking about here is Marriott determining different exchange values at each resort, similar to DVC increasing the point calendars as each of their newer resorts was rolled out.  The concern is that at each new Marriott resort it will cost successively more points to exchange in.  DVC does it, I fully expect Marriott will do it, too.


----------



## RandR

I have a question.  Since Marriott is not going to be building much in the near future due to the economy, they will only be selling units/points for existing properties where there is inventory.  (Or if they pick some up with the current non-existent ROFR.)  What percent of Marriott's total timeshares have already been sold?  I ask this since it has been talked about how many if not most people don't efficiently use their timeshares.  They may never trade or sometimes even use their units.  These people are not likely to join a new program as they will not want to spend more money for something they are not using.  Those who bought to just go to the resort/view they bought also won't join.  My confusing point is, if most of the ts inventory has already been sold, it would seem that certainly in the next few years the new points system won't get too many takers.  Certainly the completely sold out properties might not be well represented in the new system.


----------



## PerryM

*Knowing the unknown?*



SueDonJ said:


> tlw, I get what you're saying about Disney having to keep the total number of points at each resort the same as when it was developed, with each reallocation across the resort calendars.  You're right, Marriott will have to determine total points for each of their resorts relative to intervals available, and *then will not be able to increase that number*.
> 
> However, I think what people are talking about here is Marriott determining different exchange values at each resort, similar to DVC increasing the point calendars as each of their newer resorts was rolled out.  The concern is that at each new Marriott resort it will cost successively more points to exchange in.  DVC does it, I fully expect Marriott will do it, too.



I see it totally different.

Initially, Marriott will offer something that isn't as aggressive as it will morph into years from now.  So I fully expect a lot of season to season exchanges to make sense on day one.

However inter season exchanges will be something totally different.  E.g. At Summit Watch my Gold week might bring 5,000 Points and at other similar resorts a Gold week will be worth 5,000 Points too.  However a Platinum week might be worth 15,000 Points and I'd need 3 Gold weeks to do it.

If banking an borrowing are allowed I could bank 5,000 Points towards next year, then next year get 5,000 more Points and borrow 5,000 Points from the following year, I have 15,000 Points.

But that means 3 Gold weeks are now available and 1 Platinum week is missing from Platinum owners usage.  This is just the start.  Those 3 Gold weeks - what happens if no one want's them 30 days before each of their check-in day?  Does Marriott get to rent them out and keep the rental income?

This is why fuzzy math is going to be used in this exchange system - and since probably at least 10% weeks will go unused who can say what's really going on.  I doubt an accounting firm will render an opinion on the stability of the exchange system.

A new Marriott resort is built - anyone want to bet that it won't be worth more Points per week?  So misfits will be very common at some point and the only way around them will be with more and more Points required.

A Hurricane wipes out a Marriott resort - what happens to the Points the owner had in their account?  What happens to the exchanges?  What happens to the stability of the entire exchange system?  This exchange system will be a separate legal entity that Marriott can just throw up its hands and say "Who me - don't look at me".

I could go on and on but the unknowns will remain unknown even as the new exchange system is known.


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## SueDonJ

If it's set up anything like DVC, Perry, Marriott won't be able to change the total points allocated across a year for every interval available at each resort.  That's different, though, from them reallocating a usage calendar to react to demand fluctuations of seasons and units.  IOW, say a resort has 1,000,000 points total for purchase/exchange value.  Marriott must not go over that 1M total when it sets the exchange usage calendar with varying point values for each week/unit.  But, any reallocation of points can be made across that individual resort calendar in response to demand so long as that 1M is still met.  For example, say one week in a 2BR holiday week costs 2,000 points and one week in a 1BR off-season week costs 1,000 points.  Over time more folks try to exchange into that offseason week in an effort to conserve their points.  Marriott can reallocate those two weeks so that the demand is mitigated, so long as the total does not exceed the original 3,000.  The 2BR holiday could become 1,750 and the 1BR off-season could become 1,250.  Or 1,500 each.  Or any other combination that equals 3,000.  That equation can be extrapolated to include every interval in a resort up to whatever the original total points across the resort were at rollout, as well it can be applied to every resort.

About those three Gold weeks that no one wants - yes, I imagine that Marriott will be able at some point to recover them for rentals.  That's what happens now with inventory that's exchanged for MRP or not reserved within so many days of check-in (75 at SurfWatch, for example); why wouldn't Marriott write a similar provision into the exchange system's governing docs?


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## PerryM

*Sales tools are not 100% ethical...*



SueDonJ said:


> If it's set up anything like DVC, Perry, *Marriott won't be able to change the total points allocated across a year for every interval available at each resort*.  That's different, though, from them reallocating a usage calendar to react to demand fluctuations of seasons and units.  IOW, say a resort has 1,000,000 points total for purchase/exchange value.  Marriott must not go over that 1M total when it sets the exchange usage calendar with varying point values for each week/unit.  But, any reallocation of points can be made across that individual resort calendar in response to demand so long as that 1M is still met.  For example, say one week in a 2BR holiday week costs 2,000 points and one week in a 1BR off-season week costs 1,000 points.  Over time more folks try to exchange into that offseason week in an effort to conserve their points.  Marriott can reallocate those two weeks so that the demand is mitigated, so long as the total does not exceed the original 3,000.  The 2BR holiday could become 1,750 and the 1BR off-season could become 1,250.  Or 1,500 each.  Or any other combination that equals 3,000.  That equation can be extrapolated to include every interval in a resort up to whatever the original total points across the resort were at rollout, as well it can be applied to every resort.
> 
> About those three Gold weeks that no one wants - yes, I imagine that Marriott will be able at some point to recover them for rentals.  That's what happens now with inventory that's exchanged for MRP or not reserved within so many days of check-in (75 at SurfWatch, for example); why wouldn't Marriott write a similar provision into the exchange system's governing docs?



Disney has total control over ALL the Points a condo generated - and probably some legal constraints too - Marriott does not.  Just about every Marriott condo will be part II and part new exchange system.

On day 1 Marriott will look great and the owners will probably get all kinds of instant reviews from other owners - to convince other owners to convert.

Most Marriott owners will want to reserve holiday weeks - that's exactly why Marriott charges more for them.  Many unhappy owners won't get to reserve their holiday weeks - they have the points but the holiday weeks went instantly.

Now for supply and demand.  Disney probably can shift Points around from low demand weeks to high demand weeks - but the yearly calendar total of Points per condo must remain the same.  Marriott doesn't have to do this - they can simply add Points to weeks and the total yearly usage goes up.  Their argument will be that unused Points spoiled from last year and those Points were moved forward - well why not?

All the tricks, the false statements, and yes lies that occur in the sales gallery will find their way into the new sales tool.  That's how sales tools work - they don't have to be 100% ethical - Marriott has proven that for 4+ years with the "Better not buy resale" threats from those same sales galleries.

I keep telling folks that this is first and foremost a sales tool and if the owners get something out of it that's OK too.

Can I be wrong?  Sure.

P.S.

A Point is a Point - this is vastly different than 1 out of 52 weeks is exactly the same as one of the remaining 51 weeks.  This is why Marriott salesreps will ONLY sell holiday weeks at all the resorts - no need to sell anything else.

Expect a lot of disappointed owners who will never be heard over the few that got their dream vacation.


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## cruisin

The bigger Marriott can make the internal exchange system, the easier it will be to build cheaper resorts and put high credit values on them, it will not happen overnight, but it will always be the easiest route for them to take. 

They will probably start building in Branson again, I was worried about my Branson weeks, but now realize they can still build more there at a cheap cost. The point values at any place they want to build and sell in the future will probably be good,  and I cant wait to see the new Hawaiian and carribean resorts built across the street from the beach, with just as high or higher point values as the resorts right on the beach, they will probably add an extra 10 square feet to the units, call them deluxe, and make them worth 20% more points


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## Carlsbadguy

I noticed this past Sunday Marriott had an ad in the SAn Diego Union Tribune for sales executives for Newport Coast to start soon, so they may be up to something as they had recently cut way back on sales and now seem to be reving up again.


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## SueDonJ

SueDonJ said:


> ... Marriott won't be able to change the total points allocated across a year for every interval available at each resort. ...





PerryM said:


> Disney has total control over ALL the Points a condo generated - and probably some legal constraints too - Marriott does not.  Just about every Marriott condo will be part II and part new exchange system. ...



That's just not correct, Perry.  Although DVC can control the total amount of points allocated to encompass every interval within a resort, that number is fixed at development/rollout and cannot be changed unilaterally by DVC.  The same will be true for Marriott - why would you expect that Marriott will not have to suffer under the same legal constraints as any other timeshare points system?

As far as exchanges, DVC owners use RCI for external exchanges the same way that Marriott owners will still be able to use II.  Neither will have complete control over the inventory deposited for exchanges.

(I hope Marriott's internal exchange system does work the same as DVC's, because with DVC a point is a point is a point and the only difference is a home resort advantage for booking at the 11-mo mark as opposed to the 7-mo mark.  Owners purchase a chosen number of points for home resort and internal exchange use.  All DVC resorts do not "cost" the same amount of points for all stays - the point calendars take into consideration seasonal demand, number of BR, views at certain resorts and the age/amenities/overall size of each resort.)


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## barndweller

The speculating about Marriott's hints of a new points system sure sounds a lot like Diamond Resorts system. The resorts are varied in quality just like Marriott. They are varied in demand just like Marriott. Some are seasonal some not so much. Not all units are in the points system since some owners choose not to join the "club." 

DRI members have a corporate account using points to exchange at II. Trading is available at Diamond member resorts as well as other II participating resorts, often at less points than within the internal Diamond system. The only catch is the II exchange fee. The points required are discounted within 59 days in II and often in the internal Diamond system, too.

The number of points needed for booking vary according to demand and have changed over time. New resorts always require more points than older resorts. Holidays and weekends require a lot more points. 

The point value an owner gets when joining the system remains the same forever, however, so over time the value of the underlying week slowly declines. The system works great if you can travel last minute or off season. I like the system DRI has set up. If Marriott does something similar, most owners would probably opt into it. They would be stupid to exclude non-developer buyers, at least in the beginning.


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## PerryM

*All the gore...*



SueDonJ said:


> That's just not correct, Perry.  Although DVC can control the total amount of points allocated to encompass every interval within a resort, that number is fixed at development/rollout and cannot be changed unilaterally by DVC.  *The same will be true for Marriott - why would you expect that Marriott will not have to suffer under the same legal constraints as any other timeshare points system?*
> 
> As far as exchanges, DVC owners use RCI for external exchanges the same way that Marriott owners will still be able to use II.  Neither will have complete control over the inventory deposited for exchanges.
> 
> (I hope Marriott's internal exchange system does work the same as DVC's, because with DVC a point is a point is a point and the only difference is a home resort advantage for booking at the 11-mo mark as opposed to the 7-mo mark.  Owners purchase a chosen number of points for home resort and internal exchange use.  All DVC resorts do not "cost" the same amount of points for all stays - the point calendars take into consideration seasonal demand, number of BR, views at certain resorts and the age/amenities/overall size of each resort.)



How many Points Marriott generates varies by the second - folks will join and leave all the time.  Marriott has no obligation to publish those stats and won't.  Additionally the Points generated per similar unit will vary over time.  Just because a Platinum week at Summit Watch brings in 45,000 Points today doesn't mean it will for the next unit deposited - it could be more or less.

Inflation is a HUGE problem in a Point system - just how do they handle inflation/deflation of Points?  Who knows right now.

So no, I don't see where Marriott is going to be held liable for the number of Points in their system nor how they change it at their will.

We are going to have to wait for all the gory details but they won't tell us that much.  This is going to be a proprietary sales tool under their control and if anyone wants to read anything else into that well their imagination is their guide.

Home resort advantage - I see lots and lots of problems with this.  Say I have 50,000 points in my account and 10,000 came from my Gold week at Summit Watch and 40,000 came from Branson.  I want to reserve New Year's week at Summit Watch which costs 50,000 Points - do I get home resort advantage?

So my guess is that there is no home advantage - too many thorny problems.


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## m61376

PerryM said:


> How many Points Marriott generates varies by the second - folks will join and leave all the time.  Marriott has no obligation to publish those stats and won't.  Additionally the Points generated per similar unit will vary over time.  Just because a Platinum week at Summit Watch brings in 45,000 Points today doesn't mean it will for the next unit deposited - it could be more or less.
> 
> Inflation is a HUGE problem in a Point system - just how do they handle inflation/deflation of Points?  Who knows right now.
> 
> So no, I don't see where Marriott is going to be held liable for the number of Points in their system nor how they change it at their will.
> 
> We are going to have to wait for all the gory details but they won't tell us that much.  This is going to be a proprietary sales tool under their control and if anyone wants to read anything else into that well their imagination is their guide.
> 
> Home resort advantage - I see lots and lots of problems with this.  Say I have 50,000 points in my account and 10,000 came from my Gold week at Summit Watch and 40,000 came from Branson.  I want to reserve New Year's week at Summit Watch which costs 50,000 Points - do I get home resort advantage?
> 
> So my guess is that there is no home advantage - too many thorny problems.


The likely reality of point devaluation over time is troublesome; it will depend on how aggressive Marriott decides to be. DVC has done it and consumers are ok with it, while in Starwood's case it has caused dismay. I think it depends on whether or not the point differential reflects value (if a resort is truly more upscale or in a more desirable location) or whether it is a sales tool and the valuation is artificially enhanced. 

That's why I think the way Marriott rolls out their system (IF they do, in fact, roll out a system), particularly the way they assign valuations, is going to be something that warrants careful assessment. IF the valuations appear to be grounded in something other than a sales wish list, so to speak, and reflects real market demand (akin to the way that any other pricing is set; Marriott already does this by setting rental rates at its various properties, so there is no need to reinvent the wheel), then the system could be a winner. If, on the other hand, they release a point valuation where even a good Platinum week won't be able to trade for half of the Plat. weeks in the system in a like for like fashion (size/length of stay), as seen in the Asia Pacific program (although admittedly that was just a small sampling of properties) then I think the appeal will be limited for the more educated owners.

However, I think that's going to be a rub- how informed is the average owner? Marriott will hype this as the next best thing since sliced bread- the answer to all their owners' complaints. Will people simply believe what they hear, or research it? 

For me, home resort priority would be a must. You can get around your issue with it by limiting it to reserving not just in the property you bought but reserving the season and category you originally purchased for home resort priority. 

That would also infer that they would still be selling individual properties, and not just points. Thus, MF's would be tied to the property purchased and not simply a trust type of ownership. Many others have done that successfully and, unlike their Asia Pacific program, I think that would be much more user friendly and would be attractive to owners who bought where they like to go, but also would like to be able to trade.

I think it will be easy to see from the outset how they are figuring points, although, as you point out, there is the risk of finagling over time. Will there be small disparities between newer resorts still in active sales, but in the same general location, as older properties, or will there be significant differences? I think that will at least be an indication of what trend they, at least initially, contemplate, and is something that I think will warrant careful scrutiny. I know some others disagree, but I still feel that properties that rent for similar rates should be assigned similar point values, because the rental rates reflect the "value;" "value" is really a combination of supply and demand (and location and construction/amenities influence demand), and the marketplace - as reflected in what people are willing to pay for something- determines value.

One issue that we probably won't see addressed and can only hope Marriott deals with fairly (but given history I have my qualms here) is the extent of devaluation over time. For argument's sake, let's say Marriott ties its current valuation to what they are renting units for. So, if Marriott is charging $400 per night for timeshare A, the unit would be worth 2800 points. Fast forward five years; the rental rate is $500 per night. The unit is still worth 2800 points, which was its assigned value in 2010. That's ok if subsequent point valuations are based on 2010 dollars. For example, if Marriott's next resort, timeshare B, in 2015 rents for $500 a night, will that unit be assigned 2800 points or 3500 points? The market value of the newer unit is the same as the older unit, but will the point value be inflated? If so, that would mean that the original owner of timeshare A would have to either accept a smaller unit or fewer days at timeshare B, even though the market considers them equivalent properties. Similarly, in 2015, if timeshare C was introduced, and its location and/or amenities dictated that it was more valuable, how would its points value be assigned? Would they be relative to the original scale or a newly inflated scale? If timeshare C rents for $600 a night at the same time that timeshare A was renting for $500 a night, would timeshare be valued at 20% more (which would reflect the relative difference in market pricing adjusted for time and inflation) or would it be assigned a 50% higher valuation (since its current value is 50% higher than timeshare A was at the time that points were assigned to timeshare A).

My point is that prices increase over time, but so does the value of older resorts. In the rewards point program, the issue wasn't the increase in the number of points required for exchange (which I think most people understood was a natural consequence of the timeshare exchange for points system being part of a larger points program which is impacted by inflation), but the fact that the number of points for redemption reflected inflationary factors, but the point value assigned remained stagnant, fixed at the time of purchase. For any new system to be equitable, either all point assignments, both now and in the future, have to be adjusted to reflect 2010 values, or all valuations have to be periodically readjusted to reflect current rates. Otherwise, in 5-10 years down the road even that premium Hawaii, Caribbean or skiing New Year's week might not have enough points to reserve a week in a 2BR during Plat. season at whatever the newest resort is.


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## PerryM

*The Disadvantage of Home Resort Advantage*

Marriott is probably not going to have a home resort advantage in their new sales scheme aka Internal Exchange System.

Marriott is going to fundamentally alter the way they sell timeshares - they won't be selling timeshares.  They will be selling Points in an exchange club.

When you hawk Point packages made up of ANY unit from ANY Marriott the actual unit makes no difference to that scheme.  If I buy a 40,000 Point package that will get me 1 RED season vacation and 1 WHITE season vacation in the Marriott system the deeded weeks that generate those 40,000 Points is meaningless.

So the unit you turn over to the new sales scheme looses all identity once you get Points - a Point is a Point.

Marriott knows this and is going to be NOT selling individual weeks anymore they will be selling Point Packages:


Platinum 50,000 Points
Gold 40,000 Points
Silver 30,000 Points
Bronze 20,000 Points

Now there is nothing to stop Marriott from adding all kinds of benefits to the levels:


Platinum - VIP status, special check-in lanes at resorts and 12 month reservations, late check-out, early check-in with text message sent when ready, daily tidy-service, Platinum Members parking slots
Gold - 11 month reservations and late check-out, early check-in with text message sent when ready, daily tidy-service
Silver - maid service and 10 month reservations
Bronze - pond scum with 9 month reservations, clean your own room when you check-in

This is where all the benefits will be placed - at the various levels.  This is where all the pressure will be placed - to move higher in the levels.

All this versus II where everyone is treated by the week they bring to be deposited.

P.S.
When you actually buy Points at the sales gallery you won't know which weeks you are being deeded to until the final end.

Just like right now when you buy a Platinum Week it is actually deeded to a specific condo at a specific week - it says so on the deed.  I don't think the week of usage on the deed has to align with a season since Marriott can redefine seasons if it wants.  So the physical deed is totally meaningless to you since you only care about the season description you are getting.  I'm not sure even views can be related to the actual deed - just a description within the season.

P.P.S.
The initial kick-off should have higher level benefits thrown in for the 1st year.  E.g. I buy a Silver Point Package and get Platinum benefits for the 1st year and can then upgrade by buying the Point difference then for the Platinum price today.

This is why Marriott will need 2 weeks to retrain the salesreps - a totally different way of selling and selling a totally different thing - Points in our exchange club.


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## tlwmkw

Perry,

The deed has the week and season listed on it.  This is not something that Marriott, or any other TS organization, can randomly change.  At Surfwatch the deed also has the actual view category on it- again you can't just change this.  The survey that MVCI sent out said that you would not be giving up your deed but that you would join the points system for a given amount of time (they used the example of 3 years) and after that time you could either re-up or stick with the week that you own.  They cannot just cancel hundreds of deeds and turn them into points- not only would that be way too expensive it would be illegal.  Now the question really is how will new buyers be treated who do not have an actual deed?  With DVC there is an underlying timeshare (they call it home resort) that you have the RTU for and I presume MVCI will have to do the same- Florida has many laws governing this and I don't think MVCI will have the latitude to do much of what you are speculating about.  

To anyone who stumbles on this thread please be aware that this is all speculation- no one knows what is going to happen with MVCI.  Much of what is being written is phrased in a way that makes it sound like it's a done deal- that is just not so and we all need to be careful about this.

tlwmkw


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## PerryM

*Everyone will have skin in this game...*



tlwmkw said:


> Perry,
> 
> The deed has the week and season listed on it.  This is not something that Marriott, or any other TS organization, can randomly change.  At Surfwatch the deed also has the actual view category on it- again you can't just change this.  The survey that MVCI sent out said that you would not be giving up your deed but that you would join the points system for a given amount of time (they used the example of 3 years) and after that time you could either re-up or stick with the week that you own.  They cannot just cancel hundreds of deeds and turn them into points- not only would that be way too expensive it would be illegal.  Now the question really is how will new buyers be treated who do not have an actual deed?  With DVC there is an underlying timeshare (they call it home resort) that you have the RTU for and I presume MVCI will have to do the same- Florida has many laws governing this and I don't think MVCI will have the latitude to do much of what you are speculating about.
> 
> To anyone who stumbles on this thread please be aware that this is all speculation- no one knows what is going to happen with MVCI.  Much of what is being written is phrased in a way that makes it sound like it's a done deal- that is just not so and we all need to be careful about this.
> 
> tlwmkw



There is NO way to continue views into a Point system - no way that I can think of.  

The way to handle views, like ocean front, would be by making the deed worth more Points.  Say a MOC 2-bedroom garden view is 40,000 Points then a ocean view is 50,000 Points and a ocean front is then 60,000 Points.  Beyond that I just don't see an easy, simple way to give preference to the actual owner.

Maybe there is a way but one just doesn't jump to mind right now.  Points is the currency of operation in the new sales scheme - Points determine everything.

Folks, this is NOT and exchange system - it is a Points driven sales tool for Marriott salesreps.  If you should happen to get any benefit out of it why that's just icing on the cake.

Think of it this way - the engine to this new scheme is a Sales Point System and it can have skins put on it just like this chat room can have dozens/hundreds of skins put on it.  Underneath it still is a chat room.

*Marriott is going to release a Sales Point System with an Internal Exchange System skin.*

P.S.
Introducing views will be radically different than how II handles exchanges - you exchange into a unit size and week only.  Marriott will add views which will cost more Points - just like their hotels have views and cost more money for better views.

P.P.S.
At MountainSide there are 3 views which Marriott rotates owners through (Exchangers and renters somehow get a view) 1) PayDay, 2) Back of a hill, 3) Parking lot.  It's going to be fun to see if Marriott continues this or now offers PayDay view at a premium point price - that's my guess; but not to start with - 1 year later when "Supply and Demand" cause all kinds of readjustments.

Folks this is just like MRPs - there are going to be unless adjustments but the net result will always be the same "Buy more Points" is the correct solution to anything in this new scheme.  And you guys thought this was all about one owner exchanging their reservation with another owner....


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## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> ... Folks, this is NOT and exchange system - it is a Points driven sales tool for Marriott salesreps.  If you should happen to get any benefit out of it why that's just icing on the cake. ...
> 
> *Marriott is going to release a Sales Point System with an Internal Exchange System skin.* ...
> 
> P.S.
> Introducing views will be radically different than how II handles exchanges - you exchange into a unit size and week only.  Marriott will add views which will cost more Points - just like their hotels have views and cost more money for better views. ...
> 
> Folks this is just like MRPs - there are going to be unless adjustments but the net result will always be the same "Buy more Points" is the correct solution to anything in this new scheme.  And you guys thought this was all about one owner exchanging their reservation with another owner....



I'm not sure but I get the idea that you think this line of thinking is all new, that you're coming up with ideas that none of us have thought of.  I don't know why you'd think that way, though -  I don't think a one-for-one reservation exchange is the goal here at all.  The goal IS to generate revenue, and one way to entice owners is with a more equitable exchange system.

You mention how the hotels have a pricing structure that takes views into consideration.  Well, so do the timeshares!  An oceanfront unit in one resort costs more than a same-size oceanside unit which costs more than a same-size gardenview unit in that same resort.  I expect that any new exchange system will include a similar view differential, both in how many points an owner is allotted for his/her owned units as well as how many points it will cost to exchange in to the different views.  IMO, like Martha says, that's a GOOD thing.


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## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> ... Home resort advantage - I see lots and lots of problems with this.  Say I have 50,000 points in my account and 10,000 came from my Gold week at Summit Watch and 40,000 came from Branson.  I want to reserve New Year's week at Summit Watch which costs 50,000 Points - do I get home resort advantage?
> 
> So my guess is that there is no home advantage - too many thorny problems.



You're making all of this way too complicated.  It's handled simply at DVC; there's no reason it can't be handled simply at Marriott, too.  This is DVC's solution to your example:

Your 10K Gold Summit Watch points can be used 11 months in advance of the check-in day to book at Summit Watch, subject to availability.  Your 40K Branson points can be used the same way to book at Branson.  At 7 months prior to the desired check-in day you can combine whatever points you have not booked at your home resorts to book whatever is available at any resort.  There, a home resort advantage that's not difficult at all.  It's short-sighted to think that Marriott won't be able to figure out a home resort advantage whether it's similar to DVC's or not.  That's not to say they will, only that they can.


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## PerryM

*Guessing is so fun to do...*



SueDonJ said:


> You're making all of this way too complicated.  It's handled simply at DVC; there's no reason it can't be handled simply at Marriott, too.  This is DVC's solution to your example:
> 
> Your 10K Gold Summit Watch points can be used 11 months in advance of the check-in day to book at Summit Watch, subject to availability.  Your 40K Branson points can be used the same way to book at Branson.  At 7 months prior to the desired check-in day you can combine whatever points you have not booked at your home resorts to book whatever is available at any resort.  There, a home resort advantage that's not difficult at all.  It's short-sighted to think that Marriott won't be able to figure out a home resort advantage whether it's similar to DVC's or not.  That's not to say they will, only that they can.



There are dozens of ways all of this can be handled - I'm taking a stab at what I think Marriott might do.  I'm just one voice, just taking what other rumors have said "No home advantage".

But this is an exchange club - if you want to stay at your home resort just make a reservation with Marriott direct, you don't need to join the club.  I think that would be Marriott's answer.  However, if you want to bla bla bla ... that's what will follow in the next sentence to sell Points.

*I'm not sure Marriott will sell individual weeks anymore* - my guess is not.  They want to promote and sell doggy inventory and to be able to buy, from the resale market, the best bang for the buck.

The problem with silver and bronze weeks is that no one really want's them, with the new sales scheme they will be sold as easy as Platinum Plus Holiday weeks - Marriott will simply lump them into a Point package.

If you no longer sell timeshare weeks but Points to their entire system there is no home advantage to worry about.

P.S.
If this is the case, Marriott no longer sells individual weeks, then Platinum Plus weeks might actually explode on the resale market.  Resales will still be week based - Points can't be resold anywhere.


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## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> There are dozens of ways all of this can be handled - I'm taking a stab at what I think Marriott might do.  I'm just one voice, just taking what other rumors have said "No home advantage".
> 
> But this is an exchange club - if you want to stay at your home resort just make a reservation with Marriott direct, you don't need to join the club.  I think that would be Marriott's answer.  However, if you want to bla bla bla ... that's what will follow in the next sentence to sell Points.
> 
> *I'm not sure Marriott will sell individual weeks anymore* - my guess is not.  They want to promote and sell doggy inventory and to be able to buy, from the resale market, the best bang for the buck.
> 
> The problem with silver and bronze weeks is that no one really want's them, with the new sales scheme they will be sold as easy as Platinum Plus Holiday weeks - Marriott will simply lump them into a Point package.
> 
> If you no longer sell timeshare weeks but Points to their entire system there is no home advantage to worry about.
> 
> P.S.
> If this is the case, Marriott no longer sells individual weeks, then Platinum Plus weeks might actually explode on the resale market.  Resales will still be week based - Points can't be resold anywhere.



But even if they don't sell weeks anymore, only points, the point totals that they have to work with must be supported by the inventory at the resorts.  They will still have to file the proper Timeshare Plan and Declaration legal paperwork in the development process.  They will not be able to pull points out of thin air and sell one particular interval as "bait" forever.  Take a Platinum Oceanfront 2BR Penthouse in Maui's new tower (have no idea if this even exists, it's an example) - they can sell potential owners on the idea of staying in such a unit if they buy enough points to book it with a home resort advantage.  But the total points allotted to the resort will be finite, stipulated in the governing docs, and they'll no longer be able to sell at that resort when the allotted points have all been sold.  The owners, of course, will face the same limited availability issues that owners of floating weeks face now, meaning the purchase of enough points for that "bait" won't guarantee a particular reservation, but that limitation can be stipulated in the governing docs for a point system exactly the same way as it's spelled out now in the weeks system.

The same "bait" can be used to play up an exchange system based on points instead of weeks.   So what?  How is that any different from what a sales rep tells you now, that a 3BR unit in a resort has more trade power than a 2BR at the same resort, or that a resort in an island location has more trade power than an inland resort, etc?


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> But even if they don't sell weeks anymore, only points, the point totals that they have to work with must be supported by the inventory at the resorts.  They will still have to file the proper Timeshare Plan and Declaration legal paperwork in the development process.  They will not be able to pull points out of thin air and sell one particular interval as "bait" forever.  Take a Platinum Oceanfront 2BR Penthouse in Maui's new tower (have no idea if this even exists, it's an example) - they can sell potential owners on the idea of staying in such a unit if they buy enough points to book it with a home resort advantage.  But the total points allotted to the resort will be finite, stipulated in the governing docs, and they'll no longer be able to sell at that resort when the allotted points have all been sold.  The owners, of course, will face the same limited availability issues that owners of floating weeks sell now, meaning the purchase of enough points for that "bait" won't guarantee a particular reservation, but that limitation can be stipulated in the governing docs for a point system exactly the same way as it's spelled out now in the weeks system.
> 
> The same "bait" can be used to play up an exchange system based on points instead of weeks.   So what?  How is that any different from what a sales rep tells you now, that a 3BR unit in a resort has more trade power than a 2BR at the same resort, or that a resort in an island location has more trade power than an inland resort, etc?



I should imagine that on day 1 Marriott will offer the following:

1,000 Platinum Packages (50,000 Points each) which cost $150,000 and MFs ranging from $4,000 to $5,000 per year.

The faster you buy the lower the MF payment.  Each Package is made up of 3 to 5 weeks which we pay all closing costs and you simply sign 3 - 5 deeds that are then turned into our exchange club for 5 years at a minimum.  Financing can be arranged on any or all of the weeks.

2,000 Gold Packages (40,000 points each) will each cost $100,000 and MF's ranging from $4,500 to $5,500 per year.

5,000 10,000 Point Packages are available which cost $50,000 and the MF is $1,000 per year - this can ONLY be used for upgrade purposes. 

I'm just guessing here but the actual timeshare involved won't be know to the salesrep - just the purchase price and the MFs.  When the sale is made individual deeds will be signed and a purchase price assigned for tax purposes and lien purposes.

I could easily be wrong - it could easily be something totally different.


----------



## puckmanfl

Hi...

If points are done properly, it could be great (today I have high positive vibes)

Points can really add some flexibility as it can provide shorter or longer stays than the standard 7 days.  It  can eliminate the need to "pick up" hotel nights before and after TS stays.  

Perhaps it can permit wed-wed stays, thus helping to get better flights with fewer $$$ or FF miles.  

Points can help the "plat" high $$$ owner, by eliminating "down trades".  In the current week/week system a Presidents ski week owner can't really get equal value, thus will occupy or rent.  In this system the plat owner might get 12 days (hypothetically) in Orlando based on point value.  This in turn might INCREASE availability of these plat weeks to lesser week owners that want to bank, borrow or combine points...

Perhaps MVCI wants to increase sales by becoming the "best and brightest" in the industry wit h the "best" product (Perry stop laughing)

This is today's dream....


----------



## JimC

Perry,

Maybe I am missing something.  In DVC, each unit has a certain number of points assigned to it based on size of unit, view, location, day of week, time of year.  Add the points up for an entire year for each unit in a resort and that is the maximum number of points that can be sold.  Points can be reallocated, but the total number of points can not change.  A reallocation was done in 1996 and again over the last two years (DVC has annual reallocation limits).  I suspect that they very much needed to re-balance demand.  How is any of that point inflation?  Now if one uses their points at another resort built later it may require more points there then at their home resort for an equivalent stay.  Is that what you mean by point inflation?

Each DVC contract has a specific % interest in a designated unit at the resort, which is how the deed is filed.  And DVC deeds cannot be subdivided by anyone other then DVC and only if they reacquire it.  If our deeded Marriott weeks are converted to points is there a new deed required?


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> But even if they don't sell weeks anymore, only points, the point totals that they have to work with must be supported by the inventory at the resorts.  They will still have to file the proper Timeshare Plan and Declaration legal paperwork in the development process.  They will not be able to pull points out of thin air and sell one particular interval as "bait" forever.  Take a Platinum Oceanfront 2BR Penthouse in Maui's new tower (have no idea if this even exists, it's an example) - they can sell potential owners on the idea of staying in such a unit if they buy enough points to book it with a home resort advantage.  But the total points allotted to the resort will be finite, stipulated in the governing docs, and they'll no longer be able to sell at that resort when the allotted points have all been sold.  The owners, of course, will face the same limited availability issues that owners of floating weeks face now, meaning the purchase of enough points for that "bait" won't guarantee a particular reservation, but that limitation can be stipulated in the governing docs for a point system exactly the same way as it's spelled out now in the weeks system.
> 
> The same "bait" can be used to play up an exchange system based on points instead of weeks.   So what?  How is that any different from what a sales rep tells you now, that a 3BR unit in a resort has more trade power than a 2BR at the same resort, or that a resort in an island location has more trade power than an inland resort, etc?



I think Perry's point- if I am understanding it correctly, is that Marriott can theoretically be selling the point values assigned to Bronze and even Silver weeks, with the buyer planning on reserving higher demand weeks. Let's say, for arguments sake, that a Plat. week is allocated 100 points at a given resort, a Gold week 80, a Silver 60 and a Bronze 40. Those Platinum weeks sell out first, but Marriott is stuck with Silver and Bronze weeks. A points system makes it simple for Marriott to "sell" another Platinum week by combining the deeded values of a Silver and Bronze even though in reality there aren't any more Plat. weeks to sell.

Of course, when it comes time for reservations, there aren't enough Plat. weeks to go around, but theoretically some will be trading so the house of cards doesn't collapse. What that means, in essence, is that there may be even more people vying for certain prime weeks at resorts where the calendar was already perhaps already a bit skewed, assuming that there was home resort advantage (because I am assuming even if there is home resort advantage, you can combine points from any ownership at the resort, and that seasons will really be moot).

The other part about this is that in a purely points system MF's are being paid per point, not per week. So- in the above example, in reality MF's for the points of a Silver or Bronze value week will be less than the fees for a Plat. value week, whereas now all pay the same MF's. In the weeks system, a Bronze week costs less but the MF's are the same. In a points system, the value of a Bronze week is less, the cost is less, and the MF's are less. Who pays the difference??


----------



## PerryM

puckmanfl said:


> Hi...
> 
> If points are done properly, it could be great (today I have high positive vibes)
> 
> Points can really add some flexibility as it can provide shorter or longer stays than the standard 7 days.  It  can eliminate the need to "pick up" hotel nights before and after TS stays.
> 
> Perhaps it can permit wed-wed stays, thus helping to get better flights with fewer $$$ or FF miles.
> 
> Points can help the "plat" high $$$ owner, by eliminating "down trades".  In the current week/week system a Presidents ski week owner can't really get equal value, thus will occupy or rent.  In this system the plat owner might get 12 days (hypothetically) in Orlando based on point value.  This in turn might INCREASE availability of these plat weeks to lesser week owners that want to bank, borrow or combine points...
> 
> Perhaps MVCI wants to increase sales by becoming the "best and brightest" in the industry wit h the "best" product (Perry stop laughing)
> 
> This is today's dream....



This is fine too - who knows.

I'm simply trying to put my feet in the sandals the head honcho at Marriott and I need to make more money for my stockholders.  What ever it takes...


----------



## PerryM

*1+1 = (Salesreps, fill in the answer that makes the sale)*



JimC said:


> Perry,
> 
> Maybe I am missing something.  In DVC, each unit has a certain number of points assigned to it based on size of unit, view, location, day of week, time of year.  *Add the points up for an entire year for each unit in a resort and that is the maximum number of points that can be sold.  Points can be reallocated, but the total number of points can not change.*  A reallocation was done in 1996 and again over the last two years (DVC has annual reallocation limits).  I suspect that they very much needed to re-balance demand.  How is any of that point inflation?  Now if one uses their points at another resort built later it may require more points there then at their home resort for an equivalent stay.  Is that what you mean by point inflation?
> 
> Each DVC contract has a specific % interest in a designated unit at the resort, which is how the deed is filed.  And DVC deeds cannot be subdivided by anyone other then DVC and only if they reacquire it.  If our deeded Marriott weeks are converted to points is there a new deed required?



You are absolutely correct in your example of Disney and the same is true for WorldMark and all the other Point systems that actually sell Points.  The various states real estate laws get involved.

But Marriott is not going to do this - they still will sell deeded weeks that are subject to real estate laws and then instantly deposit the Points generated into the new sales scheme/exchange system where real estate laws have nothing to say.  But I'm no lawyer and this is just an assumption on my part.

If true 1+1 can equal anything the salesreps wants it to be.  Point calendars need not obeying any mathematical laws they simply must be a sales tool.

An example might be where Marriott has set up the Points calendar for upcoming year and that number will be smaller than next year when Marriott could easily devalue Points by simply demanding more Points next year - your Points remain the same from last year's sale.

Marriott can easily justify inflation and Points readjustment to reflect supply and demand - all the members will know is that they need to buy more Points - the reason for the new sales scheme.

You will all agree to all of this by signing the 50 page document dumped in front of you with the red letters on the first page saying:
*Rules subject to change without notice​*
Hell I'd make folks initial that statement if I were Marriott.  What are you going to do?  You'll initial and sign.


----------



## SueDonJ

JimC said:


> ... Now if one uses their points at another resort built later it may require more points there then at their home resort for an equivalent stay.  Is that what you mean by point inflation? ...



It seems that's one definition of point inflation being discussed in all these related threads.  But Marriott's resorts are not all of equal quality, and the better (usually newer) resorts, views and high-demand seasons cost more to purchase.  They should have higher trade value in II's exchange system, or at least they're marketed that way now.  So points inflation in this sense will allow a more equitable exchange value than II's current system, which pretty much guarantees trade-downs for those "superior" weeks (and trade-ups for inferior weeks) far more often than any "like-for-like" trades.

Another definition that Perry seems to be introducing is that Marriott will somehow be able to sell an infinite number of points because they won't have to account for points related to resort intervals.  Like you I don't see how that can be, if you contrast and compare with other points systems such as DVC.


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> It seems that's one definition of point inflation being discussed in all these related threads.  But Marriott's resorts are not all of equal quality, and the better (usually newer) resorts, views and high-demand seasons cost more to purchase.  They should have higher trade value in II's exchange system, or at least they're marketed that way now.  So points inflation in this sense will allow a more equitable exchange value than II's current system, which pretty much guarantees trade-downs for those "superior" weeks (and trade-ups for inferior weeks) far more often than any "like-for-like" trades.
> 
> Another definition that Perry seems to be introducing is that *Marriott will somehow be able to sell an infinite number of points because they won't have to account for points related to resort intervals.*  Like you I don't see how that can be, if you contrast and compare with other points systems such as DVC.



Not at all - Points generated at the time of sale are loosely related to the underlying week sold at the resort.  Once generated these Points remain intact and will never change in the owner's account.

However the Points demanded for reservations will change all the time.

That's what I'm saying.

Marriott will be able to shift Points around to reflect reality - like 4th of July week at MOC being more expensive as the 1st week in November - they will have no choice.  Initially they might be the same but the Points calendar for each resort will be dynamic and increase, as a net overall, to reflect inflation and anything else Marriott wants.

The owners will simply ask themselves "How much does it cost to buy more Points" - the ONLY reason for Marriott getting into the Points exchange business instead of selling timeshare weeks outright.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> Not at all - Points generated at the time of sale are loosely related to the underlying week sold at the resort.  Once generated these Points remain intact and will never change in the owner's account.
> 
> However the Points demanded for reservations will change all the time.
> 
> That's what I'm saying.
> 
> Marriott will be able to shift Points around to reflect reality - like 4th of July week at MOC being more expensive as the 1st week in November - they will have no choice.  Initially they might be the same but the Points calendar for each resort will be dynamic and increase, as a net overall, to reflect inflation and anything else Marriott wants.
> 
> The owners will simply ask themselves "How much does it cost to buy more Points" - the ONLY reason for Marriott getting into the Points exchange business instead of selling timeshare weeks outright.



Perry, the laws that DVC and other point systems follow require that the total points available at a resort for purchase must correlate to the total intervals available to reserve, and that the reservation requirements must never exceed that total allotment in any given use year.  Marriott will NOT be able to increase reservation point requirements across the board at any resort, if such increases will result in a points total greater than the number allotted to that resort and stipulated in the governing docs.

What you're saying here simply cannot happen ... "*Initially they might be the same but the Points calendar for each resort will be dynamic and increase, as a net overall, to reflect inflation and anything else Marriott wants.*"

Now this can happen, so long as a point increase for demand of a certain interval is offset by a point decrease of another interval ... "*Marriott will be able to shift Points around to reflect reality - like 4th of July week at MOC being more expensive as the 1st week in November*" 

***

I have no idea how all of this translates to whatever new points exchange system Marriott may introduce, whether we'll be required to give up our weeks-based deeds for points-based deeds, whether it will be a points-overlay system for existing weeks-based deeds combined with all new sales being points-based, whether it will be something else entirely, how m/f will fit into whatever system it turns out to be .... none of that is certain, and there are way too many possibilities for us to say definitively what our choices will be.  But what we can do is speculate based on what's known from current timeshare systems, and it doesn't help us at all if we throw out ideas that simply cannot happen.


----------



## PerryM

*Mommy, I hate math...*

I've made some assumptions that I'm not sure I've discussed, here is one:

Points generated by buying or entering timeshare weeks will show up as Points in the owner's account, e.g. 50,000 Points.

However, Points need not show up on the Reservation Calendar - I've just assumed that you will never see the actual Point value for a day anywhere.

I'm assuming that Marriott is going to release a state-of-the-art reservation system that never shows a Point anywhere!  You simply browse the various calendars of various resorts and if there is availability and you have enough Points the day/week will show up in bright lights, if not the day will be dim.

That way Marriott never has to worry about folks keeping track of the Points in a year for a resort - they won't have enough information to be a problem.

There probably will be a button you can click to say "If you had 5,000 Point more here's what you would see" and a handy way to get in touch with a salesrep if you decide to buy more Points.

Folks, you don't think a sales tool is going to be anything but a sales tool do you?


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> I've made some assumptions that I'm not sure I've discussed, here is one:
> 
> Points generated by buying or entering timeshare weeks will show up as Points in the owner's account, e.g. 50,000 Points.
> 
> However, Points need not show up on the Reservation Calendar - I've just assumed that you will never see the actual Point value for a day anywhere.
> 
> I'm assuming that Marriott is going to release a state-of-the-art reservation system that never shows a Point anywhere!  You simply browse the various calendars of various resorts and if there is availability and you have enough Points the day/week will show up in bright lights, if not the day will be dim.
> 
> That way Marriott never has to worry about folks keeping track of the Points in a year for a resort - they won't have enough information to be a problem.
> 
> There probably will be a button you can click to say "If you had 5,000 Point more here's what you would see" and a handy way to get in touch with a salesrep if you decide to buy more Points.
> 
> Folks, you don't think a sales tool is going to be anything but a sales tool do you?



So how will you as the owner keep track of how many points you have available?  You're given 50K that show in your account at the beginning of your use year.  You browse those bright lights and click to reserve.  Now what?  Won't your point total change to reflect a deduction for however many points that reservation cost?

I find it really hard to believe that there is not a legal requirement for any timeshare company to disclose to its owners how much it costs to utilize its system(s), whether that cost is in dollars or points or bananas.


----------



## timeos2

*Points inflation myth*



JimC said:


> Perry,
> 
> Maybe I am missing something.  In DVC, each unit has a certain number of points assigned to it based on size of unit, view, location, day of week, time of year.  Add the points up for an entire year for each unit in a resort and that is the maximum number of points that can be sold.  Points can be reallocated, but the total number of points can not change.  A reallocation was done in 1996 and again over the last two years (DVC has annual reallocation limits).  I suspect that they very much needed to re-balance demand.  How is any of that point inflation?  Now if one uses their points at another resort built later it may require more points there then at their home resort for an equivalent stay.  Is that what you mean by point inflation?
> 
> Each DVC contract has a specific % interest in a designated unit at the resort, which is how the deed is filed.  And DVC deeds cannot be subdivided by anyone other then DVC and only if they reacquire it.  If our deeded Marriott weeks are converted to points is there a new deed required?



The myth of "points inflation" is always thrown into any points discussion  by those that don't like / understand how a good points system works.  It works as you state. And most work very well.


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> So how will you as the owner keep track of how many points you have available?  You're given 50K that show in your account at the beginning of your use year.  You browse those bright lights and click to reserve.  Now what?  Won't your point total change to reflect a deduction for however many points that reservation cost?
> 
> I find it really hard to believe that there is not a legal requirement for any timeshare company to disclose to its owners how much it costs to utilize its system(s), whether that cost is in dollars or points or bananas.



Marriott could easily incorporate travel into this too - 2 round trip airline tickets might be a button you click and the days highlighted will change.  Same with car rentals - a button with a drop down box for type of car would be a choice.

Sales sales sales is what this system is all about - if Marriott doesn't do this then they just aren't making enough money for their stockholders.

Sure, after you make a reservation, get airline tickets, a car rental your balance might be 12,445 but what does that mean?  It means you need to buy more Points!

I have no idea how all this will actually work - just what I would do if I designed this sales system to maximize the Marriott's stockholders wealth and not tick off too many Marriott owners.


----------



## James1975NY

PerryM said:


> Marriott could easily incorporate travel into this too - 2 round trip airline tickets might be a button you click and the days highlighted will change.  Same with car rentals - a button with a drop down box for type of car would be a choice.
> 
> Sales sales sales is what this system is all about - if Marriott doesn't do this then they just aren't making enough money for their stockholders.
> 
> Sure, after you make a reservation, get airline tickets, a car rental your balance might be 12,445 but what does that mean?  It means you need to buy more Points!
> 
> I have no idea how all this will actually work - just what I would do if I designed this sales system to maximize the Marriott's stockholders wealth and not tick off too many Marriott owners.



Perry, all timeshare models are designed with sales in mind. From your feedback and commentary, I get the impression that you feel points are unique with that respect.

 - Want to travel next year but you have an EVEN year ownership? Well, buy another timeshare. 
 - Want to travel two weeks per year but you only own one? Buy another timeshare. 
 - Want to have access to reservations 13-months in advance, you need two timeshares.
 - You own at resort XYZ and find it next to impossible to get to resort ABC? Buy at resort ABC.

Points schemes are no different than timeshare as it exists today. Its all about how to put buyers/ownres in a position to "need" more.


----------



## PerryM

James1975NY said:


> Perry, all timeshare models are designed with sales in mind. From your feedback and commentary, I get the impression that you feel points are unique with that respect.
> 
> - Want to travel next year but you have an EVEN year ownership? Well, buy another timeshare.
> - Want to travel two weeks per year but you only own one? Buy another timeshare.
> - Want to have access to reservations 13-months in advance, you need two timeshares.
> - You own at resort XYZ and find it next to impossible to get to resort ABC? Buy at resort ABC.
> 
> Points schemes are no different than timeshare as it exists today. Its all about how to put buyers/ownres in a position to "need" more.



Where Points is truly unique, a virtual star is selling dreams over and over again without any accountability from the developer.

WorldMark is a great timeshare system that I belong to.  I've been to just 1 WM sales pitch (They are way too stingy handing out the free prizes) and that was at Lake Of The Ozarks just 2 hours from our house.

Basically WM only talked about holiday weeks - how many Credits (Points) you need and all the goodies if you buy from them.  4th of July is a biggie here in Missouri down at LOTO.

Of course if you wait until June 4 to book your 4th of July week (13 months in advance) all units are gone - what happened?  Well WM lets you reserve 8 day reservations and smart folks did that on June 3, the even smarter folks reserved 9 days on June 2, so by the time June 4th showed up all units were already booked.

This is super saturating the holiday weeks - Marriott is going to do the same exact thing with Points.  They will only talk about what Ma and Pa are interested in - 4th of July in Branson, New Year's week in Park City , President's week in Maui.

This is the key difference between what Marriott will be selling versus what they actually have in unsold inventory.

I don't know how members will solve the problem of everyone wanting to reserve New Year's week at Mountainside - I doubt 8 day reservations will be allowed - 2 weeks is probably what will happen - Christmas and New Years and heck maybe 1 week in front of that.

Granted the old fashion week system can hobble in and do some of what Points is good at but Points is far superior in flexibility which is what folks seem to want form timeshares.

And to think all of this could not be done without your week being used to lure Ma and Pa into the new exchange system (Wonder if we can get part of the commission?)


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> Where Points is truly unique, a virtual star is selling dreams over and over again without any accountability from the developer.



That's where you're wrong, and where your theories lose all credibility.  There is ALWAYS accountability from the developer.

Selling the possibility of being able to reserve the best interval of a timeshare isn't unique to points systems.  Holiday time periods within a usage season will always be in higher demand than other time periods in that season, and reservations are always subject to availability.  (The only system that offers any guarantee of availability is a fixed week system, but even with some of those an owner might lose the ability to use his/her week in a given year if s/he doesn't follow the requirements for reserving the week.)



PerryM said:


> This is super saturating the holiday weeks - Marriott is going to do the same exact thing with Points. They will only talk about what Ma and Pa are interested in - 4th of July in Branson, New Year's week in Park City , President's week in Maui.
> 
> This is the key difference between what Marriott will be selling versus what they actually have in unsold inventory.



Where you may have a point is where you mention unsold inventory.  In a weeks-based system Marriott cannot sell more of a certain unit/week interval than exist in the usage calendar, regardless of whether other different certain week/unit intervals at that resort remain in developer inventory.  In a points-based system the only limitation is the total number of points allotted to the resort.  In both systems, though, reservations are "subject to availability" and the last buyer in either system prior to sell-out (of the season in a weeks-based system or total allotment in a points-based system) has exactly the same chances as the first and every buyer to reserve a high-demand interval.


----------



## PerryM

*All for one, and one for one....*



SueDonJ said:


> That's where you're wrong, and where your theories lose all credibility.  There is ALWAYS accountability from the developer.
> 
> Selling the possibility of being able to reserve the best interval of a timeshare isn't unique to points systems.  Holiday time periods within a usage season will always be in higher demand than other time periods in that season, and reservations are always subject to availability.  (The only system that offers any guarantee of availability is a fixed week system, but even with some of those an owner might lose the ability to use his/her week in a given year if s/he doesn't follow the requirements for reserving the week.)
> 
> 
> 
> Where you may have a point is where you mention unsold inventory.  In a weeks-based system Marriott cannot sell more of a certain unit/week interval than exist in the usage calendar, regardless of whether other different certain week/unit intervals at that resort remain in developer inventory.  In a points-based system the only limitation is the total number of points allotted to the resort.  In both systems, though, reservations are "subject to availability" and the last buyer in either system prior to sell-out (of the season in a weeks-based system or total allotment in a points-based system) has exactly the same chances as the first and every buyer to reserve a high-demand interval.



OK, lets say that tomorrow Marriott introduces their sales scheme/exchange system and they have NO unsold inventory - not one unit of developer inventory is left today.

Today, what can Marriott sell?  Nothing - the salesreps have nothing in inventory so they go home and wait for tomorrow.

That's a week based system built on deeds.  Marriott is SOL.

Tomorrow the balloons are up and the salesreps are busy selling Points.  Over night Marriott bought 1,000 Bronze weeks from Summit Watch at $1,500 a pop.

What are the salesreps selling?  Why New Year's week at MountainSide and 4th of July in Maui.  Both need 50,000 Points and Marriott has valued a Bronze week at Summit Watch at 25,000 Points so they are selling a Platinum Package of 50,000 for $150,000 and a MF of $2,000.

Nothing wrong with that.

Oh, where do they get the MountainSide and Maui holiday weeks?  Why from all the folks depositing their weeks for Point packages.

On the day you can reserve New Year's week at MountainSide just 1 owner there deposited the week since Marriott gave them a special deal of 75,000 Points just for them for that week.

Can't wait to see which owner is going to snag that MountainSide.

This is what's so horrendous with this system - its all based on duplicity and there is no Point accountability.

I'm not saying that this is what Marriott is going to do just what could be done if they decide to and I don't know if any laws are violated - folks are exchanging into Summit Watch like crazy in Bronze season.


----------



## SueDonJ

Well, first off your premise isn't believable because Marriott does have inventory and plenty of it from the resorts still in developer sales mode.  They can also add inventory at any time from weeks owners who join the new points system and through exercising ROFR.

Beyond all that though, your premise seems to be that the only flaw with a new points system will be that there isn't enough inventory to satisfy the owners who want to use their purchase to stay in the higher-quality resorts during the higher-demand time periods.  Well guess what?  That flaw exists now for owners who try to use their own weeks to reserve high-demand weeks in season at their own resorts, as well as in II's exchange system.

Points aren't your problem, and accountability isn't your problem.  Limited availability for high-demand time periods is your problem and that will always exist in pretty much every floating usage system.


----------



## kschauberger

We are all aware that Marriott sales have declined over the years like most home sales across the US.  Face it, lose your home or buy a timeshare.  Unfortunately with the housing crisis and unemployment being at a high, there are I am sure a lot of foreclosures in the Marriott system that now Marriott is turning and reselling again.  It is hard to say how many are being resold by them, but the point system helps them tremendously in selling all the excess properties.  They are only fighting to survive.  As for the devaluing of our timeshares in monetary value, we all should know buying a timeshare is like buying a car, the minute you buy it it is now worth half the cost if not less.  And in the points if gone to, I would assume they give the points valued on location and season.  I would expect a platinum week in maui to go higher then Orlando gold, or silver.


----------



## PerryM

*Are we there yet???*



SueDonJ said:


> Well, first off your premise isn't believable because Marriott does have inventory and plenty of it from the resorts still in developer sales mode.  They can also add inventory at any time from weeks owners who join the new points system and through exercising ROFR.
> 
> Beyond all that though, your premise seems to be that the only flaw with a new points system will be that there isn't enough inventory to satisfy the owners who want to use their purchase to stay in the higher-quality resorts during the higher-demand time periods.  Well guess what?  That flaw exists now for owners who try to use their own weeks to reserve high-demand weeks in season at their own resorts, as well as in II's exchange system.
> 
> Points aren't your problem, and accountability isn't your problem.  Limited availability for high-demand time periods is your problem and that will always exist in pretty much every floating usage system.



I'll try again.

All Marriott has to do is have 1 - one - uno - of each holiday week at each resort to sell 10,000 memberships of each!  10,000 sales of Week 52's at MountainSide, 10,000 sales of 4th of July week at MOC, etc.  They don't have to have a single week in their inventory to sell all these dreams.

Points have 2 meanings 1) Currency to make exchanges 2) Membership level.

Imagine the pressure of having 45,000 Points and Platinum level is 50,000 Points - lucky there will be a way to buy a Point Package near that level.

Up until now Marriott could not take advantage of the existing owner's property, they can with the new scheme.  They don't need to own it to sell it.

This is radically different than II - they have their wimpy Gold level which I guess has some meaning but folks don't do crazy things to get it.

As long as everyone realizes that this is a sales tool and a poor substitute for II then I've done my job right now.

Can't wait for the day it is released and see just how good a sales tool it is.


----------



## cruisin

PerryM said:


> I'll try again.
> 
> All Marriott has to do is have 1 - one - uno - of each holiday week at each resort to sell 10,000 memberships of each!  10,000 sales of Week 52's at MountainSide, 10,000 sales of 4th of July week at MOC, etc.  They don't have to have a single week in their inventory to sell all these dreams.
> 
> Points have 2 meanings 1) Currency to make exchanges 2) Membership level.
> 
> Imagine the pressure of having 45,000 Points and Platinum level is 50,000 Points - lucky there will be a way to buy a Point Package near that level.
> 
> Up until now Marriott could not take advantage of the existing owner's property, they can with the new scheme.  They don't need to own it to sell it.
> 
> 
> This is radically different than II - they have their wimpy Gold level which I guess has some meaning but folks don't do crazy things to get it.
> 
> As long as everyone realizes that this is a sales tool and a poor substitute for II then I've done my job right now.
> 
> Can't wait for the day it is released and see just how good a sales tool it is.



It will be a salesman's dream no doubt about it, all the hottest weeks that Marriott sold out of long ago, can be resold as points, everybody will have the chance to book the very best week using points sold from the New Branson expansion.

 I heard a salesman say that demand for Branson is going to explode, and Marriott wants to be ready for all that demand, and they will base the new point valuations at Branson on the forecasted explosion.


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## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> Points aren't your problem, and accountability isn't your problem.  Limited availability for high-demand time periods is your problem and that will always exist in pretty much every floating usage system.



But isn't the fact that, whereas in the current system you may have every Platinum owner vying for a few higher demand weeks in the season, theoretically even more owners (in Perry's example Bronze week owners combining their points) will now also be vying for those same weeks? 

Although he does portray a doomsday scenario, I have to agree that Marriott is likely to sell the dream of those premium week reservations over and over again, and at the end of the day a lot of people are going to fall short.


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## dougp26364

I'm still trying to figure out why we're all still speculating and why one person is so worried about all of this.   The fact appears to be that Marriott is going to make changes. If that's true, then the second fact is there's nothing any of us can do until the new system is released. At that point we can begin to disect it from the facts to decide if/when it's a good thing and if/when it's a bad thing. 

Since our first purchase in 1998, change has happened. There's no stopping it and you have no control over it. Worrying about it is a waste of time. Frequent posts with the belief the sky is falling doesn't help.

It might be fun to speculate a little bit about what the present under the Christmas tree might be but, when it causes to much anxiety it's not really a good thing. If something like this was going to make me a nervous wreck, there's no way I'd continue to own timeshare. I'd get out now.

Personally, I kind of excited that I'll have another option to consider. I look forward to getting the information, looking it over and seeing if what I have now works best for our needs or if this something new will give us a few more advantages we've never had with Marriott before. We own three weeks that are in two points based systems. There's a whole lot of manipulating I can do with those points and making vacation plans with those programs has been much more exciting that the old deposit a week and hope system. Unlike some, I don't have the anxiety about this potential change. Instead I feel an exileration that I have something new to sink my teeth into. 

If there's any worry it's that I'll be dissapointed and will find myself remaining with what I currently own. In the end that's not really a bad option either as we purchased our units to use. One we've used every year except once since we purchased in 2001. The other we've done two request first exchanges and we use the one bedroom LO for deposit first exchanges. If I can keep those exchanges within the Marriott system then that great. If not, there are plenty of other quality resorts worthy of exchanging into.


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## PerryM

*Metamorphosis is a sight to behold...*



dougp26364 said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why we're all still speculating and why one person is so worried about all of this.   The fact appears to be that Marriott is going to make changes. *If that's true, then the second fact is there's nothing any of us can do until the new system is released.* At that point we can begin to disect it from the facts to decide if/when it's a good thing and if/when it's a bad thing.
> 
> Since our first purchase in 1998, change has happened. There's no stopping it and you have no control over it. Worrying about it is a waste of time. Frequent posts with the belief the sky is falling doesn't help.
> 
> It might be fun to speculate a little bit about what the present under the Christmas tree might be but, when it causes to much anxiety it's not really a good thing. If something like this was going to make me a nervous wreck, there's no way I'd continue to own timeshare. I'd get out now.
> 
> Personally, I kind of excited that I'll have another option to consider. I look forward to getting the information, looking it over and seeing if what I have now works best for our needs or if this something new will give us a few more advantages we've never had with Marriott before. We own three weeks that are in two points based systems. There's a whole lot of manipulating I can do with those points and making vacation plans with those programs has been much more exciting that the old deposit a week and hope system. Unlike some, I don't have the anxiety about this potential change. Instead I feel an exileration that I have something new to sink my teeth into.
> 
> If there's any worry it's that I'll be dissapointed and will find myself remaining with what I currently own. In the end that's not really a bad option either as we purchased our units to use. One we've used every year except once since we purchased in 2001. The other we've done two request first exchanges and we use the one bedroom LO for deposit first exchanges. If I can keep those exchanges within the Marriott system then that great. If not, there are plenty of other quality resorts worthy of exchanging into.



Well we can debate Marriott's 4+ year old rumor and get ready.


Some, like the lawyers, will be busy finding victims and filing lawsuits - the quicker they do the better for them.  

Some will want to take advantage of immediate lowering of resale rates and then decide if they want to buy some depressed units.

Some may want to take advantage of the "pre-construction" pricing that Marriott will offer and probably have a 1 hour window to make a decision.

Some will twiddle their thumbs and wait until the dust has settled and kick themselves in the butt.

There are many reasons to prepare for one of the largest and denominate timeshare developers to shed the old timeshare model and emerge with a completely new and different way of selling timeshares (at least for them).

So to those waiting to see what will emerge from the metamorphosis you will have a very short time window to make intelligent decisions before you fall into the pool of Marriott owners that are always a day late and dollar short.

P.S.
The real kick in the head will be when we realize that for 4+ years the Marriott salesreps were trying to do us a favor and warn us and we sat on our hands...


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## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> But isn't the fact that, whereas in the current system you may have every Platinum owner vying for a few higher demand weeks in the season, theoretically even more owners (in Perry's example Bronze week owners combining their points) will now also be vying for those same weeks?
> 
> Although he does portray a doomsday scenario, I have to agree that Marriott is likely to sell the dream of those premium week reservations over and over again, and at the end of the day a lot of people are going to fall short.



I'm still not understanding how selling the dream will be any different, considering that's how the system is sold now and it doesn't allow for every owner who has purchased whatever-it-takes to get high-demand time weeks, to actually GET those high-demand weeks.  Availability is an issue and always will be.  Within the current system it's already an ongoing problem at every resort, more pronounced at resorts where Platinum seasons are extended (Hawaii, etc) and those owners who bought the dream have adjusted - why won't owners who might convert to a points system be able to adjust?

As far as being able to convert non-premium (Bronze, Silver) weeks to points and then combine them for exchanges into premium weeks, I expect owners of those premium weeks to have some sort of reservation advantage whether they convert to points or not.  (I know we don't have all the details but I'd be very surprised if there isn't a home resort priority.)  But even if they don't, how often do you think an owner of non-premium weeks is going to choose to combine what might get her/him two or more weeks time of vacation usage at a satisfactory resort into only one week at a premium resort?  Every three years?  Five?  I know I wouldn't consistently sacrifice vacation time for higher quality, not when my purchase decision was made based on staying at my home resort.  And I don't think that too many owners under the MVCI umbrella purchased non-premium weeks with the intent to always trade up.  Sure, TUGgers do it regularly, but TUGgers represent only a minority of MVCI owners.  

At the root of it all, every potential owner simply cannot afford what it costs to BUY the ultimate dream, despite the fact that Marriott reps try their best to sell it to every prospect who comes through their sales offices.  Whether they introduce points or not the same natural economic conditions will prevent folks from purchasing whatever the "premium package" might be.


----------



## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> ... Personally, I kind of excited that I'll have another option to consider. I look forward to getting the information, looking it over and seeing if what I have now works best for our needs or if this something new will give us a few more advantages we've never had with Marriott before. We own three weeks that are in two points based systems. There's a whole lot of manipulating I can do with those points and making vacation plans with those programs has been much more exciting that the old deposit a week and hope system. Unlike some, I don't have the anxiety about this potential change. Instead I feel an exileration that I have something new to sink my teeth into.
> 
> If there's any worry it's that I'll be dissapointed and will find myself remaining with what I currently own. In the end that's not really a bad option either as we purchased our units to use. One we've used every year except once since we purchased in 2001. The other we've done two request first exchanges and we use the one bedroom LO for deposit first exchanges. If I can keep those exchanges within the Marriott system then that great. If not, there are plenty of other quality resorts worthy of exchanging into.



Yes and yes.


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## puckmanfl

Lets look at the often mentioned Bronze Summitt Watch week...

Perhaps this unit will be worth 500 points.  If it takes 1500 points for a Plat week exchange somewhere, the owner can combine, borrow and bank points but the owner will be consuming THREE Maintenance fees to do it .  Is this cost effective, as it might be cheaper to rent???


----------



## SueDonJ

puckmanfl said:


> Lets look at the often mentioned Bronze Summitt Watch week...
> 
> Perhaps this unit will be worth 500 points.  If it takes 1500 points for a Plat week exchange somewhere, the owner can combine, borrow and bank points but the owner will be consuming THREE Maintenance fees to do it .  Is this cost effective, as it might be cheaper to rent???



And in addition to whether rental fees might not exceed three weeks worth of m/f, if the owner is used to three weeks of vacation time away is s/he going to be satisfied with only one?  I wouldn't, which would mean that I'd be paying even more money for two more weeks.  All that just to get one week in a premium resort/week?  Maybe one time for the trip of a lifetime that would end up costing a fortune in non-cost effective timeshare use as well as rentals ...


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> *I'm still not understanding how selling the dream will be any different, considering that's how the system is sold now and it doesn't allow for every owner who has purchased whatever-it-takes to get high-demand time weeks, to actually GET those high-demand weeks.*  Availability is an issue and always will be.  Within the current system it's already an ongoing problem at every resort, more pronounced at resorts where Platinum seasons are extended (Hawaii, etc) and those owners who bought the dream have adjusted - why won't owners who might convert to a points system be able to adjust?
> 
> As far as being able to convert non-premium (Bronze, Silver) weeks to points and then combine them for exchanges into premium weeks, I expect owners of those premium weeks to have some sort of reservation advantage whether they convert to points or not.  (I know we don't have all the details but I'd be very surprised if there isn't a home resort priority.)  But even if they don't, how often do you think an owner of non-premium weeks is going to choose to combine what might get her/him two or more weeks time of vacation usage at a satisfactory resort into only one week at a premium resort?  Every three years?  Five?  I know I wouldn't consistently sacrifice vacation time for higher quality, not when my purchase decision was made based on staying at my home resort.  And I don't think that too many owners under the MVCI umbrella purchased non-premium weeks with the intent to always trade up.  Sure, TUGgers do it regularly, but TUGgers represent only a minority of MVCI owners.
> 
> At the root of it all, every potential owner simply cannot afford what it costs to BUY the ultimate dream, despite the fact that Marriott reps try their best to sell it to every prospect who comes through their sales offices.  Whether they introduce points or not the same natural economic conditions will prevent folks from purchasing whatever the "premium package" might be.



Huge huge difference.

In order for the salesrep to paint the dream of skiing New Year's eve at Mountainside Marriott must actually have a Week 52 MountainSide in inventory to sell.  Today there is a good chance they don't have one.

With the new sales scheme that's all the sales rep will talk about:

"Hell you need 50,000 Points to ski New Year's week at Mountainside - I happen to have 50,000 Points in a super package in inventory - sign here"

"Hey you, over there, want to ski New Year's week slope side at Park City - I can sell you the Points to get there".

The sales rep will never tell them that he sold 200 Week 52's a MountainSide so far this year....

Marriott will use our inventory, that we the owners own, to sell week 52 at every Marriott all day long 365 days a year.


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## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> Huge huge difference.
> 
> In order for the salesrep to paint the dream of skiing New Year's eve at Mountainside Marriott must actually have a Week 52 MountainSide in inventory to sell.  Today there is a good chance they don't have one.
> 
> With the new sales scheme that's all the sales rep will talk about:
> 
> "Hell you need 50,000 Points to ski New Year's week at Mountainside - I happen to have 50,000 Points in a super package in inventory - sign here"
> 
> "Hey you, over there, want to ski New Year's week slope side at Park City - I can sell you the Points to get there".
> 
> The sales rep will never tell them that he sold 200 Week 52's a MountainSide so far this year....
> 
> Marriott will use our inventory, that we the owners own, to sell week 52 at every Marriott all day long 365 days a year.



Perry, here you go again with the idea that they can sell some unlimited number of points forever and ever and ever and ever amen.  They can't.  They can only sell the number of points that equal the total allotted to the resort and stipulated in the governing docs (based on factors that have been explained to you over and over in this thread.)  In order for your example here to be logical then Mountainside cannot be allotted any less than the 50K times 200 already sold - 10M.  I haven't seen Mountainside and have no idea how many units are there or how they are configured, but eventually that resort's points allotment will be SOLD OUT.  Even if the sales rep is selling based on the premise that points at any resort can be used at any other without a home resort advantage (which we don't know to be the case,) the sales rep will be required to disclose usage provisions and the buyer will realize that demand will be a huge factor to consider.

I expect a home resort advantage.  But let's assume your idea is how it works and there isn't one - points are points.  I still don't understand how that's any different from how the current system works now.  Take a look at a resort where Platinum season extends throughout the year - they can sell 52 weeks times as many villas at the resort.  For example, every potential owner can be sold on Christmas Week in Hawaii at Kauai Beach Club but only as many owners as villa units can reserve it.  Another example - SurfWatch has 10 3BR oceanvista units and Platinum season extends for 13 weeks.  That means the sales reps can sell the dream of the July 4th holiday premium week in one of those villas 130 times over, but only 10 owners in a given year will actually GET the dream.

So whether you're dealing with a home resort advantage or not, it all comes down to supply and demand based on limited availability.  That makes your argument about "selling the dream" irrelevant in the argument of whether a points system could be better or worse than a weeks system.


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## csalter2

*Change and Fear Resonates on this Thread*

I am with Dougp about the fact that there is too much speculation. In fact over a year ago when I stated to wait and see what comes out before everyone got too worked about who knows what, people on this board felt that it was good to speculate. I don't think so much is good, because newbie's that read this thread get two things. One that points are bad and two Marriott is not to be trusted. Both of which are not necessarily true. 

What is true is that change is not a comfortable element of life for people. PerryM it is very obvious to me that you don't like change. You seem to already have it in your mind that you are going to get screwed. You have dominated this thread with negatives about what may be and Marriott. This is because you believe you may not be able to get what you used to get. Well maybe you should not have gotten what you were supposed to get in the first place and your afraid that those privelges you were not really entitled to will no longer be there for you to get. I feel like your getting upset because you have been used to buying a coach seat but you had been upgraded to first class so frequently that you feel you are entitled to first class and cause a stink when they don't give it to you but you really are supposed to be in coac because that's what you paid for.

Those of you who have not been a part of a points system may feel uncomfortable because you don't know what the reservations possibilities are like or the devaluation in points is a concerned. Points are not a problem. The problem is when you don't have enough of them. The point value of the resorts at DRI have not changed since it bought Sunterra and Sunterra had not changed their points values at their resorts for years. Now DRI did make some major renovations and upgrades to totally change some suites in some of their resorts and then increased the point totals. However, you can still book the same size unit that will have been upgraded however without major renovations, for the same point values as you had before. An example would be if you could get a 1 bdrm at a resort for 8000 points before a major overall in which the unit was renovated and upgraded and changed completey, it may now be valued at 9000 points. However, there are still 1 bedrooms at the resort that may be upgraded but without the major structural renovations. They would still be at 8000 points. At least this is what I have experienced with DRI. 

In the DRI system I have enough points to play the game well and I get many, many benefits. I am sure Marriott will provide them too if they go to some points system. There will need to be incentives to continue to buy more. I wrote DRI once to tell them I felt they needed more incentives for people to buy more points. I am at the 30,000 point mark which can give me months of timeshare if I desired. However, the 50,000 point mark in DRI is their premimum package number (of course with the premimum MF). There is not enough incentive for me to take that next leap. I did not need more vacation time and I certainly did not need more MF costs. 

I suggest again that everyone settle down and truly determine what you want out of your timeshare. Everyone will want different things and have different options. You will need to look at your family situation and determine what your goals are for your timeshare. Some of you have several and will need to determine if what Marriott does will enhance or not change your future goals with your timeshare. 

I plan on sitting tight with my Marriott property and keeping the deed because I have a points system that allows me great deal of flexibility already. I go to Hawaii and so I use my Marriott. I will assume that Ko Olina would be worth quite a few points if they change however,  I won't really need to make any adjustments. However, I will wait to see what Marriott is offering before I make any final decisions.


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## timeos2

*You coul;dn't get it in weeks and you may not, but you might, in points*



SueDonJ said:


> So whether you're dealing with a home resort advantage or not, it all comes down to supply and demand based on limited availability.  That makes your argument about "selling the dream" irrelevant in the argument of whether a points system could be better or worse than a weeks system.



Exactly. Selling "the dream" is what retail timeshare has been about since day one. The fact that the vast majority of buyers can't get the best of the best or the highest demand times has been true since day one. All this bluster about the conversion to points changing the game is nonsense.


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## MOXJO7282

timeos2 said:


> Exactly. Selling "the dream" is what retail timeshare has been about since day one. The fact that the vast majority of buyers can't get the best of the best or the highest demand times has been true since day one. All this bluster about the conversion to points changing the game is nonsense.



I agree with this statement 100%. How is it different now? Sales were always selling the idea "buy Orlando and trade to Maui". This is no different than what it will be with a points system.


----------



## puckmanfl

Lots of good points here as there is nothing quite as exhilarating as a heated debate.

What concerns me however is the effect of any change on Maintenance fees as over the years these add up and become the major expense (over purchase price).

Currently, I have wonderful weeks that I would be happy to occupy, but as part of MVCI  (vacation CLUB) I love to exchange as well.  Assuming that on 6/1 (or whatever date) MVCI goes to some Disney like system where points become the currency and the MF's are "per point" What happens to the MF's at the deeded units sold before 6/1.  If one just 'holds" it seems logical that the MF's will have there usual "inflationary + assessment" yearly increases. However, if the deed is returned or converted to the points it is logical that the MF's will be based on "point value" of the unit.  Thus plat weeks will have increased MF's (since they generate more points) and Bronze MF's might diminish (as these units generate fewer points).

Thus come some magical date, I will be asked to convert.  There will "be a fee"   + an inevitable increase in MF"s as the weeks are platinum.  I will be told that this is "optional" but of course I will lose any priority to internally trade if I don't.  I don't really care if the system is weeks or points based as both have advantages and disadvantages, but I am concerned as it will most likely cost more $$$ to keep "whatever" exchange value I have.

I also don't think I would convert and I don't see how any other high demand week holder (that occupies) would convert if the MF's were dramatically increased...

I believe the percentage of "exchangers" is higher than anyone will admit.  During my recent sales tour at Aruba Ocean (during plat plus spring break week) I was given the usual tale about "how one must own to get in here", yet on the check in line, the 8 customers in front of me all had II certificates  ready to present.

Please help me understand and correct any flawed logic here!!!


----------



## timeos2

*The weeks still remain & get paid as always*



puckmanfl said:


> What concerns me however is the effect of any change on Maintenance fees as over the years these add up and become the major expense (over purchase price).
> 
> Currently, I have wonderful weeks that I would be happy to occupy, but as part of MVCI  (vacation CLUB) I love to exchange as well.  Assuming that on 6/1 (or whatever date) MVCI goes to some Disney like system where points become the currency and the MF's are "per point" What happens to the MF's at the deeded units sold before 6/1.  If one just 'holds" it seems logical that the MF's will have there usual "inflationary + assessment" yearly increases. However, if the deed is returned or converted to the points it is logical that the MF's will be based on "point value" of the unit.  Thus plat weeks will have increased MF's (since they generate more points) and Bronze MF's might diminish (as these units generate fewer points).
> Please help me understand and correct any flawed logic here!!!



When a weeks based system gets "converted" to points the underlying weeks are absorbed but not eliminated. This occurs because the original terms of sale/ownership cannot be changed after the sale (see the many threads regarding those unchangeable rights & why that is the case).  

So although the owners will get different amount of points based on the quality of the ownership those are based on  - the fees for the underlying weeks will be paid, in full, either by the owners IF they hold on to their deeds & are simply pledging their time into a voluntary points system or by Marriott (or whoever controls the trust that is likely to be created under this scenario) - but the weeks never go away and the variable fees due based on points do NOT effect the fees due on the weeks. 

Make sense? You as an owner of weeks do not have to convert nor will you be impacted via fees on the weeks that every other owner won't also pay.  Those who opt into the points will most likely pay a fee to be in that system and may, again depending what they roll out, either pay for the weeks OR be in a trust that will pay for the weeks but then assign points to all members & those members will pay the fees based on how many points they own - along with a management overhead (hey, Marriott has to benefit too!).


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## csalter2

*There could be a home resort advantage*



puckmanfl said:


> Lots of good points here as there is nothing quite as exhilarating as a heated debate.
> 
> What concerns me however is the effect of any change on Maintenance fees as over the years these add up and become the major expense (over purchase price).
> 
> Currently, I have wonderful weeks that I would be happy to occupy, but as part of MVCI  (vacation CLUB) I love to exchange as well.  Assuming that on 6/1 (or whatever date) MVCI goes to some Disney like system where points become the currency and the MF's are "per point" What happens to the MF's at the deeded units sold before 6/1.  If one just 'holds" it seems logical that the MF's will have there usual "inflationary + assessment" yearly increases. However, if the deed is returned or converted to the points it is logical that the MF's will be based on "point value" of the unit.  Thus plat weeks will have increased MF's (since they generate more points) and Bronze MF's might diminish (as these units generate fewer points).
> 
> Thus come some magical date, I will be asked to convert.  There will "be a fee"   + an inevitable increase in MF"s as the weeks are platinum.  I will be told that this is "optional" but of course I will lose any priority to internally trade if I don't.  I don't really care if the system is weeks or points based as both have advantages and disadvantages, but I am concerned as it will most likely cost more $$$ to keep "whatever" exchange value I have.
> 
> I also don't think I would convert and I don't see how any other high demand week holder (that occupies) would convert if the MF's were dramatically increased...
> 
> I believe the percentage of "exchangers" is higher than anyone will admit.  During my recent sales tour at Aruba Ocean (during plat plus spring break week) I was given the usual tale about "how one must own to get in here", yet on the check in line, the 8 customers in front of me all had II certificates  ready to present.
> 
> Please help me understand and correct any flawed logic here!!!



Again, unnecessary concern before you know the facts. We don't know what Marriott will do. I do know from my experience with DRI, I get a 13 month home collection resort advantage and I have points. So all of the resorts in my collection of resorts, which has about 15 of them, I get reservation priority. Others in the DRI system I can book 10 months out. A good example of this could be the Florida Club. Marriott could make them a resort collection and give those who are owners in that group and two month reservation advantage over those who aren't in that collection. Marriott may offer something like that. 

As for maintenance fees the value per point will depend on how Marriott rolls this system out. I am not going to speculate on that.


----------



## taffy19

Here is a post that I found interesting.  I value his posts highly and it is based on facts and not speculation.

http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...-extends-affiliation-interval.html#post382944

let's hope that it will be the best new system of all.  The Marriott had enough time to learn from everyone else's mistakes so not make them.


----------



## puckmanfl

I think I got it...

Let me recap!!!

If I keep a deeded week (decline my invite) my MF's will be as usual!!!

If I accept to convert,it could be a system where I trade/donate my week to Marriott for points (# of points based on value of property) but the MF's /week don't change.  My weeks could be deposited into a "trust" where my MF's will be based on #of points owned.  In this system a high demand (more points) week will have an increase in MF's, but a low demand week (less points) will have a decrease in MF's???

Do I have it correct????


----------



## timeos2

puckmanfl said:


> I think I got it...
> 
> Let me recap!!!
> 
> If I keep a deeded week (decline my invite) my MF's will be as usual!!!
> 
> If I accept to convert,it could be a system where I trade/donate my week to Marriott for points (# of points based on value of property) but the MF's /week don't change.  My weeks could be deposited into a "trust" where my MF's will be based on #of points owned.  In this system a high demand (more points) week will have an increase in MF's, but a low demand week (less points) will have a decrease in MF's???
> 
> Do I have it correct????



I think you got it.  Good job.


----------



## puckmanfl

If they go to a "trust" system, Why would any "high demand, mostly occupancy" owner even consider converting???

Just for an example, Ko-olina is at about $1500 MF/year.  Any dramatic rise will bring it over $2000 (getting to the point) where it would be easier to go on TUG market place or Redweek and rent the "dream"!!!

I really don't mind a "reasonable" one time fee to convert, but a dramatic increase in yearly MF's can be daunting! Especially If one can occupy and do II trades with just routine increases in MF's.

MVCI in Perry's words call "sell the dream", but there "won't be no dream to be had" in a such a system because the high demand weeks (52 Mountainside, to quote Perry) will never be put in such a trust!!!

Can't wait till June, it should be fun!!!!


----------



## taffy19

SueDonJ said:


> That's where you're wrong, and where your theories lose all credibility.  There is ALWAYS accountability from the developer.
> 
> Selling the possibility of being able to reserve the best interval of a timeshare isn't unique to points systems.  Holiday time periods within a usage season will always be in higher demand than other time periods in that season, and reservations are always subject to availability.  *(The only system that offers any guarantee of availability is a fixed week system, but even with some of those an owner might lose the ability to use his/her week in a given year if s/he doesn't follow the requirements for reserving the week.)*
> 
> 
> 
> Where you may have a point is where you mention unsold inventory.  In a weeks-based system Marriott cannot sell more of a certain unit/week interval than exist in the usage calendar, regardless of whether other different certain week/unit intervals at that resort remain in developer inventory.  In a points-based system the only limitation is the total number of points allotted to the resort.  In both systems, though, reservations are "subject to availability" and the last buyer in either system prior to sell-out (of the season in a weeks-based system or total allotment in a points-based system) has exactly the same chances as the first and every buyer to reserve a high-demand interval.


Marriott sends the fixed week reservation confirmation automatically by emai so nothing is required.


----------



## tlwmkw

iconnections,

Thanks for some actual facts on this very speculative thread.  I was interested to see (and Perrym needs to take note) that Florida law is having a say in what will be permissable in this new program.  It won't just be a complete free for all.

I said before that it is doing many people an injustice to state what you imagine to be the new system- anyone reading this may think that there is some factual information being given.  Perhaps some folks have an agenda in this and want to discredit MVCI.

Does anyone know anything about the points program mentioned in the quote that iconnections gave?

tlwmkw


----------



## csalter2

puckmanfl said:


> If they go to a "trust" system, Why would any "high demand, mostly occupancy" owner even consider converting???
> 
> Just for an example, Ko-olina is at about $1500 MF/year.  Any dramatic rise will bring it over $2000 (getting to the point) where it would be easier to go on TUG market place or Redweek and rent the "dream"!!!
> 
> I really don't mind a "reasonable" one time fee to convert, but a dramatic increase in yearly MF's can be daunting! Especially If one can occupy and do II trades with just routine increases in MF's.
> 
> MVCI in Perry's words call "sell the dream", but there "won't be no dream to be had" in a such a system because the high demand weeks (52 Mountainside, to quote Perry) will never be put in such a trust!!!
> 
> Can't wait till June, it should be fun!!!!



Not every week fixed week 52 or other high demand fixed week is sold. Thus, you could possibly have access to it. It's not a foregone conclusion that you will not get it. It may be difficult but not impossible.


----------



## moltenlava

I'm about to purchase platinum DSV villa but now I'm a little concerned about this rumor.  I know the rumor has been around for some times.  Are we certain that this Marriott is changing the exchange system this year?

I am still a newbie in TS terminology, and I don't understand how the point system will affect my ability to trade.  Could someone give an example of how it would work after the change?  The reason I'm looking at DSV is so I can trade it into Hawaii and Caribbean.  I don't intend to keep DSV for personal use as I have another TS in southern California for that.

Compared to existing II exchange system with priority Marriott trading, would the new point system cost more/less/same to exchange into Caribbean and Hawaii Marriott resorts?


----------



## puckmanfl

IS DSV a Marriott unit? if not which developer???


----------



## moltenlava

I meant Marriott Desert Springs Villas in Palm Desert, CA.


----------



## PerryM

*Ski the holidays...*



SueDonJ said:


> Perry, here you go again with the idea that they can sell some unlimited number of points forever and ever and ever and ever amen.  They can't.  They can only sell the number of points that equal the total allotted to the resort and stipulated in the governing docs (based on factors that have been explained to you over and over in this thread.) * In order for your example here to be logical then Mountainside cannot be allotted any less than the 50K times 200 already sold - 10M.*  I haven't seen Mountainside and have no idea how many units are there or how they are configured, but eventually that resort's points allotment will be SOLD OUT.  Even if the sales rep is selling based on the premise that points at any resort can be used at any other without a home resort advantage (which we don't know to be the case,) the sales rep will be required to disclose usage provisions and the buyer will realize that demand will be a huge factor to consider.
> 
> I expect a home resort advantage.  But let's assume your idea is how it works and there isn't one - points are points.  I still don't understand how that's any different from how the current system works now.  Take a look at a resort where Platinum season extends throughout the year - they can sell 52 weeks times as many villas at the resort.  For example, every potential owner can be sold on Christmas Week in Hawaii at Kauai Beach Club but only as many owners as villa units can reserve it.  Another example - SurfWatch has 10 3BR oceanvista units and Platinum season extends for 13 weeks.  That means the sales reps can sell the dream of the July 4th holiday premium week in one of those villas 130 times over, but only 10 owners in a given year will actually GET the dream.
> 
> So whether you're dealing with a home resort advantage or not, it all comes down to supply and demand based on limited availability.  That makes your argument about "selling the dream" irrelevant in the argument of whether a points system could be better or worse than a weeks system.



Marriott's new sales scheme will be fueled by hundreds of thousands of Marriott owners who deposit their weeks into the system.  Marriott need not deposit a single week at day one.

In fact lets examine just that - on day 1 Marriott sends out eMails and hold webinars and in 1 week have 50,000 weeks deposited into the sales scheme - Marriott has deposited none, zip, zilch.

One Week 52 at Mountainside is in there as well as week 52 at MOC and Summit Watch - all the hottest of the hot weeks are in the system - Marriott has none.  Each unit gave the owner 50,000 Points into their account.

Let's say that 25 owners from each of these weeks decide to pay the $2,500 membership fee and a total of 1,000 weeks are deposited and Marriott gets $2,500,000 in cash and issues 50,000,000 Points.  Marriott has yet to have 1 Point in the system.

Marriott buys 1,000 Bronze weeks at Summit Watch for $1,500 a pop for $1,500,000 which leaves them $1,000,000 in the bank.

Marriott decides to make each worth 25,000 Points, a Mid July week at Beach Place Towers generates 30,000.  Marriott now deposits 25,000,000 Points into the system which are now up for sale.

Marriott decides that each Point will sell for $4 each.  That's $100 M in sales on an investment of $1.5 M - not bad.

Marriott salesreps all over the country realize that the 25 week 52s at Mountainside will be in the system for 30 days before they are available for reservations.  For 30 days the salesreps will show Ma and Pa 25 reservations at Mountainside for week 52.

100 Marriott salesreps each sell a 50,000 Point Platinum package for 5,000,000 Points @ $4 each = $20,000,000 in sales on day 7 (give them a week).

Each sale is for ski bums from around the country who want to ski New Year's Eve at MountainSide.

30 days later reservations open and 25 lucky folks get to ski Park City New Year's Eve.  What about the other thousands of folks - buy more Points and reserve Christmas and New Years for 100,000 Points next year.

Marriott violated no laws or rules - hell it sets whatever rules it wants.

Marriott never had a Week 52 in inventory and never needs to do so since it isn't about selling an actual Week 52 anymore but reservations to some Marriott's owner's Week 52.

All the Marriott salesreps are going to do and say is:

"A reservation made at MountainSide for Week 52 requires 50,000 Points and I just happen to have 50,000 Points for sale now - will that be cash or financed at 18.9%?"

Unethical?  Well some of them will get the reservations, so it wasn't a real lie.  Buried somewhere in all the paperwork will be the one little sentence: "Reservations subject to availability" that members will acknowledged by signing their name.


----------



## puckmanfl

Here is how the Current system works (IMO).  What will happen in June is anyone's guess.

In the current system for the purposes of exchanges with II, a week is a week is a week.  There are some short stay exchanges with II (but it usually limited availability) and way too long a topic to go over.  

You can deposit your week with II either on a request first or deposit first basis.  Request first means you do not give up your right to use your unit if the exchange does not come thouugh.  Deposit first means you relinquish the unit and II can give it to another customer while searching for your request.

I am assuming you want to trade into another MVCI unit.  All of the deposited MVCI inventory go into A Marriott pool.  II has their secret formula of assigning value for deposited and requested weeks.  Kind of like the secret KFC or Coca-Cola formula.  II will assign your deposited week a "value".  Higher value units on deposit looking for the same trade as you will get "dibs", but when the higher value units are accounted for and your exchange is available you will confirm.  Here is the good news.  Any MVCI interal excahnge (Marriott-Marriott) has a 24 day window where it must be made available to MVCI customers first.  Hypothetically, if you deposited a two bedroom Bronze Marriott week, a 2 bedroom Marriott platinum week must be given to you before an "outside" exchanger.  This is true, even if it is Hyatt Ski week.  This is your INTERNAL exchange advantage.  If you deposit early enough and give a wide range of dates, usually any reasonable internal exchange will  confirm.  I do not believe you can deposit a 1 bedroom and get a 2 bedroom, unless there are no requests at all for this unit and it becomes available on instant exchange.  With a "weeks" based system "uptrades" are very common (just ask Perry) as sometimes owners deposit these great weeks and settle for "downtrades".  With planning you can do well.  In II within 60 days, all bets are off as a 1bedroom can get a 3bedroom in Flexchange

In a points system, each week is assigned a value and the currency is "points" .  A one week Marriott DSV week may not have enough points for one week Hawaii (all  plat) but may have enough points for a gold,silver or bronze carribean.  The Marriott DSV week may only have enough points for 5 days at a platinum ski week or Hawaii... Some points program have "last minute" deals where it takes less points to get a unit within 60 days of check in.

Hope this is not too confusing


----------



## PerryM

puckmanfl said:


> Here is how the Current system works (IMO).  What will happen in June is anyone's guess.
> 
> In the current system for the purposes of exchanges with II, a week is a week is a week.  There are some short stay exchanges with II (but it usually limited availability) and way too long a topic to go over.
> 
> You can deposit your week with II either on a request first or deposit first basis.  Request first means you do not give up your right to use your unit if the exchange does not come thouugh.  Deposit first means you relinquish the unit and II can give it to another customer while searching for your request.
> 
> I am assuming you want to trade into another MVCI unit.  All of the deposited MVCI inventory go into A Marriott pool.  II has their secret formula of assigning value for deposited and requested weeks.  Kind of like the secret KFC or Coca-Cola formula.  II will assign your deposited week a "value".  Higher value units on deposit looking for the same trade as you will get "dibs", but when the higher value units are accounted for and your exchange is available you will confirm.  Here is the good news.  Any MVCI interal excahnge (Marriott-Marriott) has a 24 day window where it must be made available to MVCI customers first.  Hypothetically, if you deposited a two bedroom Bronze Marriott week, a 2 bedroom Marriott platinum week must be given to you before an "outside" exchanger.  This is true, even if it is Hyatt Ski week.  This is your INTERNAL exchange advantage.  If you deposit early enough and give a wide range of dates, usually any reasonable internal exchange will  confirm.  I do not believe you can deposit a 1 bedroom and get a 2 bedroom, unless there are no requests at all for this unit and it becomes available on instant exchange.  With a "weeks" based system "uptrades" are very common (just ask Perry) as sometimes owners deposit these great weeks and settle for "downtrades".  With planning you can do well.  In II within 60 days, all bets are off as a 1bedroom can get a 3bedroom in Flexchange
> 
> In a points system, each week is assigned a value and the currency is "points" .  A one week Marriott DSV week may not have enough points for one week Hawaii (all  plat) but may have enough points for a gold,silver or bronze carribean.  The Marriott DSV week may only have enough points for 5 days at a platinum ski week or Hawaii... Some points program have "last minute" deals where it takes less points to get a unit within 60 days of check in.
> 
> Hope this is not too confusing



Great explanation but one key fact needs to be stressed - *Marriott controls the sale of Points and Reservations with the new scheme*.  It decides who gets what with their super secret computer programs.

Before they were limited to just sales and exchange of reservations was the purview of a third company II.

If you don't get the reservation you want what do you do?  Was it an honest transaction or do Platinum members get a little something extra over Silver members?

If you think II had strange results wait until the new sales scheme has many members scratching their heads in disbelief. 

But not to worry, just like the salesreps used to talk about buying extra weeks (only from their resort of course) to get 13 month reservations so there will be all kinds of similar solutions which always turn out to be:

"Buy more Points"

Gee; who knew?


----------



## moltenlava

I still don't understand why the new point system is disadvantageous to the owners.

If platinum DSV is equivalent to gold Aruba (for the argument's sake), with the current exchange system there is little or no guarantee that DSV owner will ever get Aruba (if we don't count special last minute deals, etc).  The trading power can be empirically assessed, but there is no published data to accurately show the trading power of one TS compared to another.

With the point system the owners will know exactly why they don't get the week they want in another resort, and there is an option to purchase the point to get the week if they wanted to.  If the owner doesn't want to pay extra to buy the premium week, they can still get gold/silver week, just as they could with traditional exchange.

Another convenience with the point system that I can think of is the owner doesn't need to go through the hassle of 

1.  getting a good week at the home resort and bank the week.
2.  search for available week for the resort I want to trade to.   (daily, weekly, etc)

The step 2 can be especially tedious, time consuming, and frustrating if the week I want doesn't turn up.  With the point system I would know whether the week is available or not right away, so I don't need to keep searching for the trade.

I'm sure there is something that I'm missing, as a lot of owners seem to be uncomfortable with the switch to the point system.  I'd like to understand what other concerns there are.


----------



## PerryM

*Johnny Fairplay from Survivor is a great example..*



moltenlava said:


> I still don't understand why the new point system is disadvantageous to the owners.
> 
> If platinum DSV is equivalent to gold Aruba (for the argument's sake), with the current exchange system there is little or no guarantee that DSV owner will ever get Aruba (if we don't count special last minute deals, etc).  The trading power can be empirically assessed, but there is no published data to accurately show the trading power of one TS compared to another.
> 
> With the point system the owners will know exactly why they don't get the week they want in another resort, and there is an option to purchase the point to get the week if they wanted to.  If the owner doesn't want to pay extra to buy the premium week, they can still get gold/silver week, just as they could with traditional exchange.
> 
> Another convenience with the point system that I can think of is the owner doesn't need to go through the hassle of
> 
> 1.  getting a good week at the home resort and bank the week.
> 2.  search for available week for the resort I want to trade to.   (daily, weekly, etc)
> 
> The step 2 can be especially tedious, time consuming, and frustrating if the week I want doesn't turn up.  With the point system I would know whether the week is available or not right away, so I don't need to keep searching for the trade.
> 
> I'm sure there is something that I'm missing, as a lot of owners seem to be uncomfortable with the switch to the point system.  I'd like to understand what other concerns there are.



I believe you are making the assumption that this is an exchange system - I believe it is simply a sales system where its entire design is to sell Points and as an afterthought exchanges can be done too.

If this were a 3rd party like II or Redweek then a "fair" system is probably what was in the programmers minds as they created the system.  The 3rd party wants lots and lots of exchanges since that's their only revenue source from the owners - that and membership fees.

Marriott, on the other hand, has a vested interest in NOT creating a "fair" system - they make their money from selling Points and they also create all the secret rules that make the new exchange system work.

The intended consequences of the new sales scheme are lower resale prices which they happen to have a vested interest in too - they can recycle cheap weeks and sell them as expensive Points.

There is so much temptation here for Marriott to abuse the system that I'm scared of what they could do to my little old Gold Summit Watch.

What Marriott eventually does is unknown but I can sure come up with worst case scenarios - folks are free to create best case scenarios if they want.

But we are talking about a timeshare developer who no longer builds timeshares - how long will their stockholders put up with that?  I can only guess.


----------



## puckmanfl

There are many benefits to a point system.  The debate betweens "weeks" currency and "points" currency can go on forever.

What is concerning here is the dramatic paradigm shift (rules change) that is coming.  If a MVCI unit was purchased from the developer or re-sale is NOT relevant.  Use of the units (Occupancy vs. Exchanging) is also not relevant.  What is relevant was that the purchase was made with a specific set of "rules to the game".  Many have researched these, agreed to play by them and have done well.  The MVCI sales pitch included the whole "enchilada".  Occupation of home units, ease of exchanging with II, tricks of the trade etc.  The name says it all (Vacation Club) and Internal exchanging is one of the benefits sold.  Just walk into any sales gallery and you will see pictures of AA of the resorts and the big II color board as well..

Sometime soon, I will get a "notification" that changes are coming.  Whatever the cost and rules of the point game are, the "request" will be as follows.  For a "fee" (minimal or moderate) and possible changes in your MF you can join our program.  You are also free "Not to", but of course you will most likely lose any internal exchange benefit.  The opportunity to sell back units and withdraw from the game will NOT be on the menu.

Hopefully, the new system will be great and many will want to join.  However the prospects of increased costs and increased MF's are daunting!!!!

I will remain cautiously optimistic as I believe that the best business model is to produce a system that is LOVED by all.  This will foster brand loyalty and future sales.  I am hopeful that the MVCI will hit a "homerun"


----------



## dougp26364

iconnections said:


> Here is a post that I found interesting.  I value his posts highly and it is based on facts and not speculation.
> 
> http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...-extends-affiliation-interval.html#post382944
> 
> let's hope that it will be the best new system of all.  The Marriott had enough time to learn from everyone else's mistakes so not make them.



I agree. I believe in that one short post we have better information that what's been speculated by "the sky is falling" or "Marriott is desperate" crowd so worried about this change. I had not considered that this product would likely be based off Marriott's Ritz-Carlton product rather than the AP product. We also haven't taken into consideration the difficulty and time consuming task of getting the new product registered for sale in all states as a reason for the delay in launching this product. 

The sky is not falling. The end of the world is not at hand. It's just change and change happens rather frequently in the timeshare world. I remain both excited and optimistic that Marriott will be offering us something of value while at the same time not buying into either the hype of fear mongering sales staff might push to make a sale now.


----------



## puckmanfl

Could you provide some insight into the Ritz Carlton program...

Have no idea how it works...

Let's hope for the "homerun"  I would be "ALL in"


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> I think I got it...
> 
> Let me recap!!!
> 
> If I keep a deeded week (decline my invite) my MF's will be as usual!!!
> 
> If I accept to convert,it could be a system where I trade/donate my week to Marriott for points (# of points based on value of property) but the MF's /week don't change.  My weeks could be deposited into a "trust" where my MF's will be based on #of points owned.  In this system a high demand (more points) week will have an increase in MF's, but a low demand week (less points) will have a decrease in MF's???
> 
> Do I have it correct????



Maybe, maybe not. DRI has a trust based system. I own two weeks at a DRI resort. I was offered to convert my weeks into their trust based system. If I did this, my MF's would have actually gone UP and, I would have been required to pay an additional trust management fee. 

Owners at resorts with lower MF's may see an increase in their MF's in a trust based system while owners at resorts with more expensive MF's may see a lower MF by joining a trust base system. It's a double edged sword depending on the average MF of resort units in the trust. So MF's could either by higher or lower depending upon where you own.


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> Could you provide some insight into the Ritz Carlton program...
> 
> Have no idea how it works...
> 
> Let's hope for the "homerun"  I would be "ALL in"



Unfortunately, I've never looked at the Ritz-Carlton program. For that matter I've only given the AP program a passing glance. While it would be interesting to understand the RC program I think it's still best to just wait until the official roll out so we can disect facts rather than speculation.


----------



## JimIg23

Reading the linked post, I still dont see how they wont let in resales (when someone sells their points to someone else not thru Marriott).  What does that mean?  Is there such a system where they only way to sell your points would be through the TS company (being Marriott)?


----------



## SueDonJ

JimIg23 said:


> Reading the linked post, I still dont see how they wont let in resales (when someone sells their points to someone else not thru Marriott).  What does that mean?  Is there such a system where they only way to sell your points would be through the TS company (being Marriott)?



I'm reading that linked post differently, I think:


> The one area that has been completely hush, is whether or not the points will be allowed to transfer via resale (makes me wonder if that could part of the issues with the registration).. Hopefully, the state of Florida will require that transferability be allowed for it to be registered and sold in Florida... Hopefully....



This could mean that a points-based ownership (such as the trust-types mentioned in connection with total conversion of week(s)-based ownership) may not be able to transfer at all through resales.  That doesn't make much sense, though - why would Marriott want to be responsible forever for every sale they've made?  They'd have to make some provision for taking back points ownerships at least in cases of financial hardship, wouldn't they?

If you read the quote another way, though, it may be referencing a points-overlay system for exchanging week(s)-based ownerships.  The OP could be hoping that the overlay could transfer automatically upon external resale of the week, instead of the buyer having to purchase the overlay from Marriott in addition to the week from the seller.  That makes more sense, doesn't it?

I dunno.  It certainly could be wishful thinking   but I don't know how that post fits in to the premise that week(s) owners will have to give up their weeks-based deeds and convert to a total points-based system.

{edited to add} About the laws pertaining to ownership transfers - Marriott managed to write the governing docs in such a way that the MRP-exchange option of developer-sold weeks does not transfer upon resale on the external market.  I'd guess that if any new internal exchange system is developed and sold as a similar option, which can be the case if it's a points overlay system, then the laws will allow Marriott to not transfer that option upon resale.


----------



## SueDonJ

iconnections said:


> Here is a post that I found interesting.  I value his posts highly and it is based on facts and not speculation.
> 
> http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...-extends-affiliation-interval.html#post382944
> 
> let's hope that it will be the best new system of all.  The Marriott had enough time to learn from everyone else's mistakes so not make them.





iconnections said:


> Marriott sends the fixed week reservation confirmation automatically by emai so nothing is required.



   I should have said this sooner - thanks for your posts.  Good stuff.


----------



## PerryM

*Marriott becomes a Destination Club?*

Ritz-Carlton (RC) is a Destination Club (DC) and if Marriott is to become a DC then we are all doomed.

DCs are just about out of business - a business model that failed.

It's been a number of years since I investigated the RCDC but they have the ability to buy any condo and generate Points which are then sold.  When I investigated them they were just starting up and couldn't answer any of my questions.

I'll ask the DC guys in another forum here how it works - they might be up to speed.

But this means Marriott abandons timeshares and becomes a DC?  Oh well...glad I only own 1 Gold Summit Watch and that's it.

I'll get back if I ever get an answer....


----------



## Kagehitokiri2

"..."

if you recall, RCDC still has regular fractionals in addition to "portfolio"

isnt portfolio like buying worldmark points?

* if marriott "converted" it would probably be the same. TS owners could exchange x amount of time into "DC" if they wanted. (RC fractional owners can exchange 2 weeks. - something you found out...)

* not to mention RCDC is simply using unsold fractional inventory right now...


----------



## PerryM

Kagehitokiri2 said:


> "..."
> 
> if you recall, RCDC still has regular fractionals in addition to "portfolio"
> 
> isnt portfolio like buying worldmark points?
> 
> * if marriott "converted" it would probably be the same. TS owners could exchange x amount of time into "DC" if they wanted. (RC fractional owners can exchange 2 weeks. - something you found out...)
> 
> * not to mention RCDC is simply using unsold fractional inventory right now...



But this involves depositing hundreds of thousands/millions of deeds into a trust - who the heck is going to pay the legal fees to do this?

And why?

That's why I'm saying that if Marriott heads down the RCDC route there are really big problems with Marriott - really big.


----------



## davidvel

PerryM said:


> *Marriott controls the sale of Points and Reservations with the new scheme*.  It decides who gets what with their super secret computer programs.


Wow, Perry if this is the case then what's the point? If Marriott is this crooked I am surprised I can reserve my week at all each year. 

Watch out for those black helicopters over your house tonight, and the men with the white coats ...


----------



## taffy19

*June 17!*

Mark this date on your calendar.  It may be the last day to buy deeds.  I assume that it is for everywhere.  Training is only going to be three days and not two weeks. Only two months away and we should hear more.

We had a sunset dinner at Longboards tonight as we love this spot so will be back again next year, I hope.  I can start counting down the days tomorrow when we get home.


----------



## taffy19

*Fixed weeks/units*

Susan, we get our confirmation automatically by email but it may be different for fixed week but floating units.  Most of them seem to be that way and I don't know if they are handled differently.  Hopefully, some other people will let you know.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Ritz-Carlton (RC) is a Destination Club (DC) and if Marriott is to become a DC then we are all doomed.
> 
> DCs are just about out of business - a business model that failed.
> 
> It's been a number of years since I investigated the RCDC but they have the ability to buy any condo and generate Points which are then sold.  When I investigated them they were just starting up and couldn't answer any of my questions.
> 
> I'll ask the DC guys in another forum here how it works - they might be up to speed.
> 
> But this means Marriott abandons timeshares and becomes a DC?  Oh well...glad I only own 1 Gold Summit Watch and that's it.
> 
> I'll get back if I ever get an answer....




Let's face it Perry, no matter what Marriott does, in your eye's, we're all doomed.


----------



## PerryM

*What's for dinner?*



davidvel said:


> Wow, Perry if this is the case then what's the point? If Marriott is this crooked I am surprised I can reserve my week at all each year.
> 
> Watch out for those black helicopters over your house tonight, and the men with the white coats ...



I'm presenting the worst case scenarios that I can think of - I just believe that Marriott is not a benevolent dictator just a run of the mill timeshare organization that will lie, cheat and steal their way to a sale - just ask their salesreps for the past 4+ years.

Folks are free to present their side - a benevolent dictator.

But don't give up - I sure wont.  Come on troops surely you can find goodness and light in what Marriott is about to do...

One thing I'm certain of - if Marriott needs access to our deeds, like depositing them into a trust under their complete control, our goose is cooked; as bad as I've painted the new scheme it will be much worse.

I've been predicting a bursting of the timeshare bubble for many years now - apparently a 25% drop in real estate isn't enough to phase timeshares but if Marriott goes the route of depositing your deeds into their corporation that qualifies as the collapse of timeshares too - we are then witnessing the successor to timeshares.


----------



## m61376

The post about emulating the RC system was interesting. Last year there was a discussion that the RC system was being regarded as a model for the points system which was supposed to be rolled out imminently (imminently meaning last year), but was delayed because the RC points system was considered problematic and disappointing and Marriott realized that it wasn't working.

I don't remember the details, but I am surprised that the idea of the new possible points system emulating the RC program is resurfacing. I'd love to hear more details about the program; all I remember is that is was pretty much a bust.


----------



## Dean

IF Marriott goes the points route, they have a number of choices to make.  However, there are a number of systems that work on points and several of those transitioned from weeks to points.  There are variable as to how they treat resale buyers and those who owned previous to the points system.  It's unlikely Marriott would reinvent the wheel.  Look to Wyndham, Worldmark, DVC, Club Intrawest, Bluegreen, Diamond, etc. for your answers.

Some of the assumptions:

Those that own fixed weeks will continue to get what they paid for at the fees they'd pay otherwise.
No mixing of inventory.
That the pool of units available for fixed week owners would be directly related to those that have not converted in that unit type for that week.
There would be some continued exchange option through II ± RCI but there might or might not be an internal trading preference.
All owners and all weeks would have some points conversion options.
The laws of the states where the resorts will come into play as well as the laws where a given sale is made.  
They cannot oversell a given resort, this may happen in MX but it is not going to happen with Marriott.



Some of the choices to be made:

Points assignment to each resort, unit type and season.
Whether to have a home resort priortiy or not. DVC does, BG and CI do not.
Whether to have a unit type priority.  I only know of one points resort that does this where you can reserve the unit size and type for a period of time before others could do so.
Terms and prices of conversion.  Needs to be enticing early on.
Whether to use the points structure as a way to excalate costs by raising points or only raise points for something that offers more value.  Example:  HP & GO should not be the same points for a 2 BR and the points should vary by view type and season.  
Whether to allow banking/borrowing/transfers.  Hard to avoid the first 2 with a points system, the latter is less common.
Whether to have a generic dues that's spread across all club members or whether to keep them resort specific.  
Whether to have a VIP program and if so, the terms of those options.  
Whether to allow members to use their underlying unit if they are club members.  BG and I think Hyatt allow you to keep your given unit if you want for any given year.
How to handle the variables for resale of points.
Whether to stay with II or jump to RCI.  II has also been rumored to be developing a points system.
I'm sure we could add infinitely to both lists.

There are many potential benefits of a points system but some of those benefits are for the member, some for the system and some for both.  The main benefit to the system are that in effect every point sold is potentially a Platinum season point in the eyes of the buyer.  Flexibility is the main benefit to the member.  Realize though that a points system is inherently more expensive to run than a fixed weeks system and the more flexible it is, the more extra costs are involved.  So you have to decide how to handle those costs.  Do you spread them to all members or do you do pay to play, most settle somewhere in between.  IF a VIP program were to come, relief of the fees are often a bargaining chip.



> One thing I'm certain of - if Marriott needs access to our deeds, like depositing them into a trust under their complete control, our goose is cooked; as bad as I've painted the new scheme it will be much worse.


I would disagree that it's a major problem but it would add to the cost of such a program for the paperwork and recording fees.  Bluegreen does this successfully and to a degree, DVC functions that way as well though they are RTU.


----------



## PerryM

*Is that a paradigm falcon swooping down at me?*



Dean said:


> IF Marriott goes the points route, they have a number of choices to make.  However, there are a number of systems that work on points and several of those transitioned from weeks to points.  There are variable as to how they treat resale buyers and those who owned previous to the points system.  It's unlikely Marriott would reinvent the wheel.  Look to Wyndham, Worldmark, DVC, Club Intrawest, Bluegreen, Diamond, etc. for your answers.
> 
> Some of the assumptions:
> 
> Those that own fixed weeks will continue to get what they paid for at the fees they'd pay otherwise.
> No mixing of inventory.
> That the pool of units available for fixed week owners would be directly related to those that have not converted in that unit type for that week.
> There would be some continued exchange option through II ± RCI but there might or might not be an internal trading preference.
> All owners and all weeks would have some points conversion options.
> The laws of the states where the resorts will come into play as well as the laws where a given sale is made.
> They cannot oversell a given resort, this may happen in MX but it is not going to happen with Marriott.
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the choices to be made:
> 
> Points assignment to each resort, unit type and season.
> Whether to have a home resort priortiy or not. DVC does, BG and CI do not.
> Whether to have a unit type priority.  I only know of one points resort that does this where you can reserve the unit size and type for a period of time before others could do so.
> Terms and prices of conversion.  Needs to be enticing early on.
> Whether to use the points structure as a way to excalate costs by raising points or only raise points for something that offers more value.  Example:  HP & GO should not be the same points for a 2 BR and the points should vary by view type and season.
> Whether to allow banking/borrowing/transfers.  Hard to avoid the first 2 with a points system, the latter is less common.
> Whether to have a generic dues that's spread across all club members or whether to keep them resort specific.
> Whether to have a VIP program and if so, the terms of those options.
> Whether to allow members to use their underlying unit if they are club members.  BG and I think Hyatt allow you to keep your given unit if you want for any given year.
> How to handle the variables for resale of points.
> Whether to stay with II or jump to RCI.  II has also been rumored to be developing a points system.
> I'm sure we could add infinitely to both lists.
> 
> There are many potential benefits of a points system but some of those benefits are for the member, some for the system and some for both.  The main benefit to the system are that in effect every point sold is potentially a Platinum season point in the eyes of the buyer.  Flexibility is the main benefit to the member.  Realize though that a points system is inherently more expensive to run than a fixed weeks system and the more flexible it is, the more extra costs are involved.  So you have to decide how to handle those costs.  Do you spread them to all members or do you do pay to play, most settle somewhere in between.  IF a VIP program were to come, relief of the fees are often a bargaining chip.
> 
> I would disagree that it's a major problem but it would add to the cost of such a program for the paperwork and recording fees.  Bluegreen does this successfully and to a degree, DVC functions that way as well though they are RTU.



This is a fantastic summary!

I would be much more positive of a paradigm shift by Marriott if this were 2007 at the heyday of timeshares - full confidence in their ability to sell timeshares and moving past timeshares into new frontiers.  Apple and their iPhone and iPad are great examples of this.

However being sucked into a black hole is an entirely different matter...


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> This is a fantastic summary!
> 
> I would be much more positive of a paradigm shift by Marriott if this were 2007 at the heyday of timeshares - full confidence in their ability to sell timeshares and moving past timeshares into new frontiers.  Apple and their iPhone and iPad are great examples of this.
> 
> However being sucked into a black hole is an entirely different matter...


Thanks Perry.  A good points system implemented appropriately could be a win-win for most members.  However, those on the fringe are likely not going to be happy.  I own 5 HH Platinum weeks between GO & Surfwatch, 3 are OF, 1 OS and 1 GV.  Other than the GV week, a points system is unlikely to have much appeal to me unless I have the opportunity of using my weeks and view OR trading for points.  OTOH, the other 4 weeks I own would fit fairly well for most points systems (all Platinum in HI, Branson and Panama City).  Those that own the lowest weeks and at the lowest rated resorts are going to find out just how much their units are actually worth and they may not like the answers.

I've already gone through one conversion, to Bluegreen, and as BocaBum can tell you, I had quite an ordeal.  It took me ultimately 5 or 6 years for the event to actually happen with me being willing to sign and pay the entire time.  This was complicated by a number of factors including the fact the resort was in Aruba, and it was still worth it though I did have the same issue of having some weeks that I wanted to keep and some I wanted in the club but ultimately I did convert them all.  IF Marriott does this like BG did, you give them your deed and they give you a different one for a different week that's in inventory, I doubt they'd do that but if they require an extra points purchase and tie the points to a full week, they might.  For me, that would likely be a deal breaker due to what I own with Marriott.


----------



## puckmanfl

Good morning Perry, Doug and Dean

This one is for you!!!

I am niether a pessimist or optimist,just concerned and trying to figure it all out...

Let me see if I get the picture....

points might be the greatest thing ever, but here are my concerns...

Sometime soon, I will be asked to join (for a fee) some sort of "deeds for points" program. Based on some actuarial  averaging of "deeds in  the trust" or a Perry like Linear Progression analysis, my MF's will either increase, decrease or remain the same . When I ask MVCI about costs (MF's) I will be told "it depends" but I better choose soon because the prices go up and the benefits go down for late arrivals.  Depending on my decision I will either be in the new "points" currency": or remain in the "weeks" currency with II.  At the time my decision is made, I will have no idea how much inventory will be in either system as I have no idea (just guesswork) as how the other owners are choosing...

Do I have it correct???


----------



## PerryM

*It all Depends on leaks....*



puckmanfl said:


> Good morning Perry, Doug and Dean
> 
> This one is for you!!!
> 
> I am niether a pessimist or optimist,just concerned and trying to figure it all out...
> 
> Let me see if I get the picture....
> 
> points might be the greatest thing ever, but here are my concerns...
> 
> Sometime soon, I will be asked to join (for a fee) some sort of "deeds for points" program. Based on some actuarial  averaging of "deeds in  the trust" or a Perry like Linear Progression analysis, my MF's will either increase, decrease or remain the same . When I ask MVCI about costs (MF's) I will be told "it depends" but I better choose soon because the prices go up and the benefits go down for late arrivals.  Depending on my decision I will either be in the new "points" currency": or remain in the "weeks" currency with II.  At the time my decision is made, I will have no idea how much inventory will be in either system as I have no idea (just guesswork) as how the other owners are choosing...
> 
> Do I have it correct???



Bingo!

We will have to wait until June and see what the gory details mean to all of us.

I should imagine that everyday will bring us more and more leaks as this new scheme drags it's sorry butt over the beginning line.

So stock up on adult diapers (Depends) and get ready for rumor spills in the next 6 weeks - I can't wait.


----------



## SueDonJ

Nice job, Dean, thanks.  Can you explain how each of the different points systems transfers upon resale, especially in the systems where weeks have been converted to points?  Does the underlying week always stay "attached" to the ownership in which case the sale is of a week and not points, or does the ownership get re-deeded to points in which case the sale is of the points?  Both?  Neither?

I'm still trying to figure out that linked post and how it fits into a weeks-to-points conversion system - if the underlying week does not stay attached to the conversion in some form, and the converted ownership consists solely of points, why would it be necessary to "hope" that points can be transferred upon resale?  In this case, wouldn't points be the ONLY thing that could be sold?  How could Marriott block points from transferring which would effectively prevent a resale of such a conversion?


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> Good morning Perry, Doug and Dean
> 
> This one is for you!!!
> 
> I am niether a pessimist or optimist,just concerned and trying to figure it all out...
> 
> Let me see if I get the picture....
> 
> points might be the greatest thing ever, but here are my concerns...
> 
> Sometime soon, I will be asked to join (for a fee) some sort of "deeds for points" program. Based on some actuarial  averaging of "deeds in  the trust" or a Perry like Linear Progression analysis, my MF's will either increase, decrease or remain the same . When I ask MVCI about costs (MF's) I will be told "it depends" but I better choose soon because the prices go up and the benefits go down for late arrivals.  Depending on my decision I will either be in the new "points" currency": or remain in the "weeks" currency with II.  At the time my decision is made, I will have no idea how much inventory will be in either system as I have no idea (just guesswork) as how the other owners are choosing...
> 
> Do I have it correct???



Maybe......maybe not. That's just it. I don't know, Perry doesn't know, no one knows. Nothing has been released. It's all speculation. 

Until Marriott release information to the public this is much ado about nothing. Perry's got himself all twisted up about this and I just don't understand that way of thinking. Maybe when Marriott releases the program.....if it releases a program at all.......it might be as bad a Perry's imagination has him thinking. On the other hand, this could be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

What will the MF's be? We don't know. How many points will it take to reserve a week at any given resort? We don't know. Will there be home resort advantage? We don't know. Will it be a trust based ownership or a deeded week worth X number of points? We don't know.

Sure we can look at the RC or AP programs and make a few assumptions and guesses about what Marriott might or might not do. Maybe it will resemble one of those programs or, maybe Marriott will have learned from it's mistakes and this will be an entirely different product. 

The thing is, we just don't know. Worry and hand wringing at this point is a perfectly good waste of time. Letting anyone get you upset about it or anxious over it is a waste of time. 

The only thing this discussion is good for is the pure sport of speculation. There's nothing wrong with it unless you allow yourself to make decisions based upon smoke and mirrors. 

I look at it this way. Marriott has been a solid product for us for a long time. We've been happy with our resorts. We've been happy with our ownership. We've been happy with Marriott. I find it hard to believe Marriott would lay this HUGE egg that some want to believe. 

Do I think it will be fantastic for every Marriott owner? No I don't. Do I think the program is going to be the worst thing to ever happen to Marriott or timeshare in general. No I don't. I believe the final analysis will reviel a product that works great for some and not so well for others. 

I do know that I feel more secure with the fact that I bought our two Marriott units primarly to use and not exchange. So long as I can use my weeks in the season that I own, I'll probably continue to be a happy Marriott owner. If I bought primarly to exchange, then yes, I'd be nervous. But I'd only be nervous because the rules are changing and I might find I'm no longer in the prime position I was in before the change. THAT is the risk one takes when one buys a timeshare strictly to exchange. 



So to answer your question, maybe.....maybe not. Hopefully we'll see in June.


----------



## PerryM

*For whom the bell tolls...*



dougp26364 said:


> Maybe......maybe not. That's just it. I don't know, Perry doesn't know, no one knows. Nothing has been released. It's all speculation.
> 
> *Until Marriott release information to the public this is much ado about nothing*. Perry's got himself all twisted up about this and I just don't understand that way of thinking. Maybe when Marriott releases the program.....if it releases a program at all.......it might be as bad a Perry's imagination has him thinking. On the other hand, this could be the greatest thing since sliced bread.
> 
> What will the MF's be? We don't know. How many points will it take to reserve a week at any given resort? We don't know. Will there be home resort advantage? We don't know. Will it be a trust based ownership or a deeded week worth X number of points? We don't know.
> 
> Sure we can look at the RC or AP programs and make a few assumptions and guesses about what Marriott might or might not do. Maybe it will resemble one of those programs or, maybe Marriott will have learned from it's mistakes and this will be an entirely different product.
> 
> The thing is, we just don't know. Worry and hand wringing at this point is a perfectly good waste of time. Letting anyone get you upset about it or anxious over it is a waste of time.
> 
> The only thing this discussion is good for is the pure sport of speculation. There's nothing wrong with it unless you allow yourself to make decisions based upon smoke and mirrors.
> 
> I look at it this way. Marriott has been a solid product for us for a long time. We've been happy with our resorts. We've been happy with our ownership. We've been happy with Marriott. I find it hard to believe Marriott would lay this HUGE egg that some want to believe.
> 
> Do I think it will be fantastic for every Marriott owner? No I don't. Do I think the program is going to be the worst thing to ever happen to Marriott or timeshare in general. No I don't. I believe the final analysis will reviel a product that works great for some and not so well for others.
> 
> I do know that I feel more secure with the fact that I bought our two Marriott units primarly to use and not exchange. So long as I can use my weeks in the season that I own, I'll probably continue to be a happy Marriott owner. If I bought primarly to exchange, then yes, I'd be nervous. But I'd only be nervous because the rules are changing and I might find I'm no longer in the prime position I was in before the change. THAT is the risk one takes when one buys a timeshare strictly to exchange.
> 
> 
> 
> So to answer your question, maybe.....maybe not. Hopefully we'll see in June.



With Marriott pushing this rumor for 4+ years I'd bet they think this is a big deal.

My assumption, all along, is that the optimum decision making period will be measured in hours after the announcement - maybe just minutes.

We've all gone through this with Marriott reservations - miss the opening bell by even 15 seconds and your holiday plans just changed.

I'm assuming that Marriott will do the same on the announcement - the "pre-construction" pricing, if there is any, will be snapped up in minutes.  The more scenarios we can imagine and review the more prepared we will be to make an informed decision.

Count on me to try to analyze the new product/scheme as soon as it is released and I hope to make a decision within minutes as to what this means to me and what opportunities and pitfalls await me.

That's all I'm doing here - and I imagine the tempo will increase substantially as the opening bell rings - those salesreps can't help themselves but blab what they learn.  We have to run that through a filter of what we know about salesreps and try to understand the truth.

Customers deal with truth, salesreps deal with imagination.


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Good morning Perry, Doug and Dean
> 
> This one is for you!!!
> 
> I am niether a pessimist or optimist,just concerned and trying to figure it all out...
> 
> Let me see if I get the picture....
> 
> points might be the greatest thing ever, but here are my concerns...
> 
> Sometime soon, I will be asked to join (for a fee) some sort of "deeds for points" program. Based on some actuarial  averaging of "deeds in  the trust" or a Perry like Linear Progression analysis, my MF's will either increase, decrease or remain the same . When I ask MVCI about costs (MF's) I will be told "it depends" but I better choose soon because the prices go up and the benefits go down for late arrivals.  Depending on my decision I will either be in the new "points" currency": or remain in the "weeks" currency with II.  At the time my decision is made, I will have no idea how much inventory will be in either system as I have no idea (just guesswork) as how the other owners are choosing...
> 
> Do I have it correct???


MF would almost certainly increase with any points system, the issue is how much and what you get for that increase.  Not only would you likely not know how much inventory is in points or weeks, it's very likely that the vast majority of inventory will be in off season and lower views.  If they let you keep you weeks options under the points structure it likely doesn't matter for direct usage, if not, it matters greatly.  Taking the Aruba experience I referred to, the vast majority of conversions and new sales has been in worse unit locations and lower seasons.  That's not to say there is no inventory, just that it's skewed.  The Fairfield experience is likely the best single comparison as to what to expect with a new points system starts up even if the points system is ultimately different.  



SueDonJ said:


> Nice job, Dean, thanks.  Can you explain how each of the different points systems transfers upon resale, especially in the systems where weeks have been converted to points?  Does the underlying week always stay "attached" to the ownership in which case the sale is of a week and not points, or does the ownership get re-deeded to points in which case the sale is of the points?  Both?  Neither?


I'll also lets others speak to CI, Hyatt, Hilton, Wyndham, etc as I am not versed well enough in those to be certain.  For Westin my understanding is the points options do not transfer unless the resort is points only.  As you know, with DVC, there are no distinctions between resale and retail currently.  BG has evolved while I've been looking/owning.  Currently resale buyers don't get the VIP benefits unless they buy direct (which includes their resale company).  BG has cut back on their conversion options but BocaBum is the expert in all areas of BG resale.  I think Wyndham is the same way where you have to buy qualified to get the VIP options.  Since Marriott already has a history of some limitations to resale buyers, I would expect some differentiation.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> With Marriott pushing this rumor for 4+ years I'd bet they think this is a big deal.
> 
> My assumption, all along, is that the optimum decision making period will be measured in hours after the announcement - maybe just minutes.
> 
> We've all gone through this with Marriott reservations - miss the opening bell by even 15 seconds and your holiday plans just changed.
> 
> I'm assuming that Marriott will do the same on the announcement - the "pre-construction" pricing, if there is any, will be snapped up in minutes.  The more scenarios we can imagine and review the more prepared we will be to make an informed decision.
> 
> Count on me to try to analyze the new product/scheme as soon as it is released and I hope to make a decision within minutes as to what this means to me and what opportunities and pitfalls await me.
> 
> That's all I'm doing here - and I imagine the tempo will increase substantially as the opening bell rings - those salesreps can't help themselves but blab what they learn.  We have to run that through a filter of what we know about salesreps and try to understand the truth.
> 
> Customers deal with truth, salesreps deal with imagination.


Perry while I would agree that there is likely to be an opening special if this happens, it's unlikely to be gone in a few minutes, days or even weeks.  Marriott needs a critical mass and the best way to get it is to convert as many people as possible early on.  Ultimately we all have to look at any program that's rolled out and make decisions, in my case there's a good chance I'd convert 4 or 5 weeks but not all 9 if the program is appealing.  I think it's also very possible that the first price is not the best price/option.  The questions to me aside from the specifics of the points program itself, will be whether you have to pay a closing cost on each unit converted and whether you have to purchase additional points to secure the conversion.  

I think it's reasonable to assume that any points program that Marriott might tender will be a good one overall, the question that's more variable is whether getting into it as a current owner is worth the costs to convert.  When I say costs, I'm referring to both money and what you're giving up.  As noted, it's a certainty that even if the program is a good one and the conversion options reasonable, it will not be a great option for every person.  

Here are a few situations where those looking to convert might lose in some ways.

Off season owners may not get as many points as they think they should.
Lower quality/demand resorts likewise might not get enough points.
Those with special views might lose out on that guarantee.
OTOH, lower season owners would get options they don't currently have and they MIGHT get lower dues while those with more points might get higher dues.


----------



## puckmanfl

Dean

Am I understanding you correctly?  I believe that you are trying to tell me that If I convert to "points" my MF's will probably rise and the inventory in the "points" pool will most likely be skewed too "low demand" "low view".  Why would any plat or high demand owner even consider this plan???


----------



## SMB1

PerryM said:


> Ritz-Carlton (RC) is a Destination Club (DC) and if Marriott is to become a DC then we are all doomed.



Remember Glum from Gulliver's Travels?


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Dean
> 
> Am I understanding you correctly?  I believe that you are trying to tell me that If I convert to "points" my MF's will probably rise and the inventory in the "points" pool will most likely be skewed too "low demand" "low view".  Why would any plat or high demand owner even consider this plan???


Overall a point system is more expensive to operate than a floating weeks system so ultimately fees have to rise, the question is how much and how to divide them between all the members.  And that's likely true even for those that don't convert once a significant number of people have.  For sold out resorts where one must rely on conversion to get inventory, it's very likely that the inventory will be skewed to lower demand times and view UNLESS they give you the option of keeping your week or getting the points as BG and Hyatt (I believe) do.  However that method would further reduce the high season or better view options for low season/lower view converters.  The issue with Marriott is how to cont the floating season system once a significant number of people have converted.  It's possible they could revert to the fixed underlying week of the deed which would put additional pressures on many to convert, myself included.  Though all 5 of my HH weeks are good weeks, they are not the same week and I use them for a family trip about EOY where i get multiple units in one week.


----------



## SueDonJ

Dean said:


> Overall a point system is more expensive to operate than a floating weeks system so ultimately fees have to rise, the question is how much and how to divide them between all the members.  And that's likely true even for those that don't convert once a significant number of people have.  For sold out resorts where one must rely on conversion to get inventory, it's very likely that the inventory will be skewed to lower demand times and view UNLESS they give you the option of keeping your week or getting the points as BG and Hyatt (I believe) do.  However that method would further reduce the high season or better view options for low season/lower view converters.  *The issue with Marriott is how to cont the floating season system once a significant number of people have converted.  It's possible they could revert to the fixed underlying week of the deed which would put additional pressures on many to convert, myself included.*  Though all 5 of my HH weeks are good weeks, they are not the same week and I use them for a family trip about EOY where i get multiple units in one week.



How is this possible, if the governing docs of the unconverted floating weeks stipulate that the week number in the deed is not a guaranteed period of use, that usage is based on a floating season subject to compliance with the reservation procedures?   How have the other timeshare companies that have done weeks-to-points conversions managed to negate the governing docs of the sold weeks?  What's in the Marriott governing docs that would allow such a thing?

(Just checked my deeds - Gold 40 and 41, Plat 31 - I would NOT be a happy camper.)


----------



## yumdrey

Dean said:


> Overall a point system is more expensive to operate than a floating weeks system so ultimately fees have to rise, the question is how much and how to divide them between all the members.



Dean, on what based you can define that?
I own Worldmark (pure point based system) and Hilton (deeded, but also point based system), but they have the most reasonable MF among all my TS. 
Maybe converting weeks system to point system will cost money, but that's why Marriott would charge customers one time joining fee at the beginning if that ever happen.
I don't think point system will rise MF compared to weeks system.


----------



## PerryM

The week ahead is going to be very busy for me so I'm out of here for now.

What started as a simply Red-Week type of exchange system that simply "Sits on top" of the existing week system has morphed into a Destination Club with confiscation of the deeds - there are so many alternatives that I've presented my theories until the next tidbit of rumor.

Unless there is a truly outstanding rumor floated I'm finished with this thread.  If someone really needs to ask me a question, PM me.

Have fun...


----------



## Dean

SueDonJ said:


> How is this possible, if the governing docs of the unconverted floating weeks stipulate that the week number in the deed is not a guaranteed period of use, that usage is based on a floating season subject to compliance with the reservation procedures?   How have the other timeshare companies that have done weeks-to-points conversions managed to negate the governing docs of the sold weeks?  What's in the Marriott governing docs that would allow such a thing?
> 
> (Just checked my deeds - Gold 40 and 41, Plat 31 - I would NOT be a happy camper.)


My 5 weeks Plat at HH are two 25's, 28, 30 & 31.  I'd have to review the POS to be more certain about this issue and don't have the time to do so but I'm convinced that they could limit you to your exact week IF they so chose.  If I convert my weeks, you're removing the week in question for that week's inventory.  Given the current system that would be good for those that don't convert if they leave the system in place for that group.  



yumdrey said:


> Dean, on what based you can define that?
> I own Worldmark (pure point based system) and Hilton (deeded, but also point based system), but they have the most reasonable MF among all my TS.
> Maybe converting weeks system to point system will cost money, but that's why Marriott would charge customers one time joining fee at the beginning if that ever happen.
> I don't think point system will rise MF compared to weeks system.


I can't speak to the specifics of either but if you add up the total fees for the resorts for the year I'm sure you'll find more costs compared to similar resorts.  The extra housekeeping, extra full time resort staff and extra housekeeping personnel have costs.  That's not to say it has to be a lot more but there are inherent costs you can't get away from.  DVC ties the fees to a given resort as does Marriott currently, BG averages the fees for current buyers over the entire system.  BG also spreads any SA over the entire system.


----------



## SueDonJ

Dean said:


> My 5 weeks Plat at HH are two 25's, 28, 30 & 31.  I'd have to review the POS to be more certain about this issue and don't have the time to do so but I'm convinced that they could limit you to your exact week IF they so chose.  If I convert my weeks, you're removing the week in question for that week's inventory.  Given the current system that would be good for those that don't convert if they leave the system in place for that group.



Anything is possible, I guess, but I'd have to see the justification for Marriott implementing a change from floating to fixed weeks for current owners who do not choose to convert to any points system, in order to believe the possibility.  Especially as at the time of purchase, Marriott does not make a choice of certain week(s) available to owners - they make it quite clear that the week/unit numbers on the deed are irrelevant to what's being purchased, i.e. a floating weeks system, beyond seasonal/villa type usage.  I remember one person in one of these discussions said that s/he specifically asked for a certain week "just in case" but that's the only instance I've heard of it.


----------



## Tommy_Boy

*The view from here...*

From a newbie who has been viewing TUG BBS for a few weeks (and I'm joining TUG soon, as soon as I hear back that I passed through Marriott's ROFR for my Platinum Aruba week!) I gotta say, this thread, the gloom n' doom, etc. appears  semi-hysterical --- I could have read many of the same posts, near-verbatim, 3 or 4 YEARS ago....yet nothing has changed.  And someone posted recently that Marriott re-upped with II for at least another few years, too!  

If wagering were legal, my wager will be June will come and go, and NOTHING will change.  Perhaps I'll be wrong.  But as someone who's just arrived, and having viewed the historical perspective through the posts, I think this whole thread may be an entertaining way for you guys to pass some time, but ultimately, moot, at least for the foreseeable future. 

Cheers,

Tommy_Boy


----------



## billymach4

Tommy_Boy said:


> From a newbie who has been viewing TUG BBS for a few weeks (and I'm joining TUG soon, as soon as I hear back that I passed through Marriott's ROFR for my Platinum Aruba week!) I gotta say, this thread, the gloom n' doom, etc. appears  semi-hysterical --- I could have read many of the same posts, near-verbatim, 3 or 4 YEARS ago....yet nothing has changed.  And someone posted recently that Marriott re-upped with II for at least another few years, too!
> 
> If wagering were legal, my wager will be June will come and go, and NOTHING will change.  Perhaps I'll be wrong.  But as someone who's just arrived, and having viewed the historical perspective through the posts, I think this whole thread may be an entertaining way for you guys to pass some time, but ultimately, moot, at least for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Tommy_Boy



Way to go Tommy Boy.....
I am with you all the way.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> The week ahead is going to be very busy for me so I'm out of here for now.
> 
> What started as a simply Red-Week type of exchange system that simply "Sits on top" of the existing week system has morphed into a Destination Club with confiscation of the deeds - there are so many alternatives that I've presented my theories until the next tidbit of rumor.
> 
> Unless there is a truly outstanding rumor floated I'm finished with this thread.  If someone really needs to ask me a question, PM me.
> 
> Have fun...



It's only morphed in some of our minds. Nothing official has been released yet. This is like fearing what's behind a closed door. It could be a huge monster waiting to devour us all or it could be a tiny kitten. It's only been our imagination that's run wild. I don't count salesmens rumors as substantial information to work from.


----------



## dougp26364

Tommy_Boy said:


> From a newbie who has been viewing TUG BBS for a few weeks (and I'm joining TUG soon, as soon as I hear back that I passed through Marriott's ROFR for my Platinum Aruba week!) I gotta say, this thread, the gloom n' doom, etc. appears  semi-hysterical --- I could have read many of the same posts, near-verbatim, 3 or 4 YEARS ago....yet nothing has changed.  And someone posted recently that Marriott re-upped with II for at least another few years, too!
> 
> If wagering were legal, my wager will be June will come and go, and NOTHING will change.  Perhaps I'll be wrong.  But as someone who's just arrived, and having viewed the historical perspective through the posts, I think this whole thread may be an entertaining way for you guys to pass some time, but ultimately, moot, at least for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Tommy_Boy



I think you're pretty accurate in your assessment. I just wish Marriott would do something soon because the rumors keep larger and the monster keeps getting bigger. 

I think that Marriott will do something eventually and, I think the odds of it being this June are better than they've ever been. It it doesn't happen, I'm still a happy little camper as I've learned how to work the existing system to get what we want. Our wants are relatively small and it's worked out excellent for us. 

If they do make an announcement on June 17th, I look forward to seeing what new toys Marriott is offering us to play with. Maybe it will be something of great value, maybe we'll want to stick with our weeks the way they are now.

I'll say one thing and that is it must be terrible stress to buy a resale week on the cheap with the one purpose of exchanging into nicer more expensive units, then having to see monsters in every corner just waiting to take your candy away from you. I'm not sure I could deal with that sort of unnecessary stress in my life. Timeshare ownership should be about enjoyment. One should not have to spend so much energy and time worrying about something that may not happen or, if it does happen, may not be a bad thing at all. 

I think if it bothered me that much, I'd sell my weeks and get out of timeshare. Renting would be a much more stress free environment. But then again, I'm not trying to work a system and be as cheap as humanly possible while still enjoying a particular level of comfort. I find it easier to buy what I want and live a little more stress free.


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## JimIg23

As long as I can continue to reserve summer NCV weeks and holidays in Orlando,  I will be happy with my deeded weeks whatever they do.  If they play with the inventory and make it impossible to get a summer NCV week with my deeded week, I will have to get out if I can.....  If most Tuggers followed the rule "buy where you want to go" most of us will be fine.


----------



## SueDonJ

Well sure it's possible that June will come and go with absolutely no changes, but I think the probability of something being changed in the near future is much higher than its been at any time over the years that this new internal exchange system has been discussed.  It doesn't appear now that we're dealing with the same vague sort of rumors that have been around for years - on top of the leaked information being more detailed than it's ever been and more of it coming from non-sales staff Marriott employees, more than one person has heard of the actual training sessions being scheduled.

I don't see where this discussion shouldn't be happening at all, though.  Why not?  Some of us want to look at all angles before the fact, some want to deny it's even being considered at all until Marriott makes it official, one  seems to want to prepare himself and the rest of us for the absolute worst.  Eh, it's all just thinking out loud ...


----------



## AceValenta

As we all sit here and speculate of what will be and what won't be, there should be one simple question, "Where did we hear about the June deadline and the internal trade system other than the Tug Boards?" 

I would suspect 90% would answer a sales person or sales presentation. None of this was put in writing at the time. Face it, they are there to sell and they will use every sales tactic, including stretching the truth. 

Even if they do roll out this internal system, I have a feeling that those of us who stay on the deeded week system will benefit with II. Now the resorts may not be Marriott but we could still pull some pretty strong traders. 

BTW..... My rumor mongering came from a sales person! 

I look forward to June and beyond. If there are changes, I have enjoyed my ride and the trades that I have received paid for the price of both my timeshares. The rest is just icing on the cake from here on out. My wife and my kids will continue many travels around the globe, Marriott or not. I think the money we spend on vacations at a Marriott resorts and what others spend will be missed.


----------



## dougp26364

SueDonJ said:


> Well sure it's possible that June will come and go with absolutely no changes, but I think the probability of something being changed in the near future is much higher than its been at any time over the years that this new internal exchange system has been discussed.  It doesn't appear now that we're dealing with the same vague sort of rumors that have been around for years - on top of the leaked information being more detailed than it's ever been and more of it coming from non-sales staff Marriott employees, more than one person has heard of the actual training sessions being scheduled.
> 
> I don't see where this discussion shouldn't be happening at all, though.  Why not?  Some of us want to look at all angles before the fact, some want to deny it's even being considered at all until Marriott makes it official, one  seems to want to prepare himself and the rest of us for the absolute worst.  Eh, it's all just thinking out loud ...



No problem with a discussion. It's just that it often seems to border on hysteria that the end is near. Doom is hanging over our heads. The timeshare world according to Marriott is coming to an end.   That sort of talk is what bothers me the most. 

I understand that we could see a deeded weeks that convert to points or a trust based ownership where no one has a home resort. I have no problem with that sort of discussion. But this stuff that Marriott is going down the drain or that Marriott is on the verge of insolvency and is desperate is a little to the extreme. 

As mentioned before, it you own a week at a resort you enjoy in a season you enjoy being there, what can you possibly lose? You have deeded rights that Marriott won't be taking away. This is just another option that will work great for some, won't work at all for others and will leave a few sitting on the fence. 

Now, if you bought a lower value week at a resort you have no intention of going to in the season you own with the sole purpose of trading into high end, high season resorts and you've been bragging all along about how smart you are and how dumb everyone else is, maybe that gravy train is coming to an end.


----------



## m61376

I think the most important part of this discussion, at least for me, besides giving me an excuse to waste some time , is that if Marriott actually does roll out a program I think I know a lot more now and am better equipped to evaluate it. 

While I don't feel it will be a 1 day transient period like Perry suggested, it is possible that a new program may have some initial sign on incentives to get the ball rolling, whether they be a lower price, some bonus points, or some other offer, and it MAY be to our advantage to be able to make a decision within the first few weeks of the offering, if there is one. 

Putting aside the doomsday type scenarios, I think the multitude of posts have covered most if not all of the potential issues with a points program, especially how it might impact our underlying ownership.


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning...

This has been a wonderful thread!!!!

Sometime soon a decision will need to be made.  Hopefully, because of the informed, logical and emotional "posts" we will all be better equipped to make an "informed" decision.

I have learned so much.  Now I understand LP (Linear Progression), "deeds", "trusts", RTU's etc.  There have been valuable experiences from MVCI owners who can bring their experiences from other systems to the equation.  The daily "Perry Posts" while awash in passion, have some insight as well.  The more controlled logical posts of Doug, Dean and Sue are appreciated as well.  I feel bad for many of the "uninformed"  non TUGggers out there, that will get a notice about all of this and say "huh".  There are sales reps as we speak, are conducting business as usual to unsuspecting customers, that have no clue a major "paradigm" shift is coming!!!

My only concern regarding this thread seems to be an underlying resentment towards "exchangers" who up-trade.  I am going to have to side with Perry on this one.  In a perfect world, all owners would purchase to "occupy" at their "dream" resort in-season.  The beauty of the system is that it is great for "occupiers" AND exchangers.  If Perry, can get a "primo" unit for his Gold Summit I say good for him.  Please keep in mind that any unit available on "uptrade" has been deposited (not used) by an owner. It has to make it through the II system.  If a Plat week gets thru to a gold exchanger, it means that no "higher" bids were placed on it. IF a unit is in "Flexchange", it has essentially cleared "waivers"  There is nothing immoral or evil here.  I have plat weeks that I love to  occupy, but I also love "locking off" and trying to upgrade.  Sometimes, travel plans need to be varied.  It is fun putting those units in the system and trying to "live the dream"...

My point is that the system as it is is great for occupiers, exchangers and point generators.  I am hopeful that new system will ENHANCE, not HINDER ALL owners.  I even hope that resale owners are welcome.  I CHOSE to purchase from the developer with an informed decision but I see how resale is great as well and I respect those that moved in this direction!!!!

I hope Perry doesn't work too hard this week and comes back soon!!!


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Record-Setting TUG-BBS Discussion Topic ?*

This could be just about the longest & most participated-in TUG-BBS discussion topic yet that's based on sheer speculation. 

( Frivolous topics like toilet paper rotation & boiled pizza & comical typefaces, etc., don't count -- not that there's anything wrong with those. )  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## dougp26364

While there's a lot of speculation, I'm not sure you can say it's based on sheer speculation. There is decent evidence that something will happen in the near future. The speculation is relegated to what that change might be. 

While I might think it's not a good idea to get overly dramatic about and potential change. I do think it's good to discuss the different types of exchange systems that are in existance today. Having a good general knowledge of those systems will give those who have followed this rather long thread the basis for asking good questions when it comes time to discuss their options. 

For the record, I have nothing against trading up. I do it with my Ocean Pointe studio week and our 1 bedroom lock-out at Grand Chateau. At issue in my mind is the risk one takes when buying a unit strictly to exchange. The rules for exchange change frequently. That makes owning a unit strictly for exchange risky business. I can site many system changes I've seen in the last 12 years and my opinion is it's best to own something you can use or, you better have an exit plan when what you own no longer works for you.

Our original timeshare purchase was Polo Towers and we bought it to use. However, over time, they became strictly exchange weeks. I was almost to the point of selling them when DRI bought Sunterra and introduced their points program to Polo Towers owners. All of the sudden, those units became more valuable and more useful to us. Sometimes change is a very GOOD thing. 

I own a week in Branson we bought to use but, we've been exchanging it instead. Mostly because when I search, I find what I consider good up trades. If I can't find those exchanges we're perfectly content to use the week. Eventually, we'll get tired of it and/or we won't be able to get the exchanges we want. In the back of my mind I have a value for that unit and, when I don't get that value I have an exit plan. 

You can NOT buy something today and expect that things will never change. Things change frequently and the knowledgable timeshare owner understands this. There are things one can do to lessen the impact of change. One of those is to buy a timeshare you're willing to use or, buy one that has value to the larger group of potential exchangers. Either you'll have something you can use and value it for that reason or, you'll have something that's probably valuabel enough to others that you'll be able to get decent exchanges. If you buy a throw away week striclty to trade up you have to be ready to throw away that week if the rules change and it's of no use to you anymore.


----------



## PaulN

I haven't tuned in a for a while on this thread, but from what I'm reading it looks like Marriott's system will be similar to the system they are using with their Ritz brand of timeshares.  

They had contacted us, like many of you I'm sure, back last year to see about trading in our week and buying into the Ritz system.  It was all points based with "examples" of vacation packages with the number of points you would buy.  

Mostly because it was a Ritz product, I assume, it was too expensive but in addition, we prefer the current MVC system over the points.


----------



## davidvel

puckmanfl said:


> Depending on my decision I will either be in the new "points" currency": or remain in the "weeks" currency with II.  At the time my decision is made, I will have no idea how much inventory will be in either system as I have no idea (just guesswork) as how the other owners are choosing...
> Do I have it correct???



Not unless the CCRs at your resort are amended (which cannot be done by Marriott.) 

All of the inventory originally comes from the HOA the way it always has. That "inventory" doesn't change.  If you don't "get with the program" you still have the right to reserve as you always have out of ALL the weeks in your season. 

(This does not address Perry's theory that Marriott will steal weeks or otherwise rig the reservation system to give an advantage to its program, all of which would violate the CCRs and your rights as an owner.)


----------



## dioxide45

davidvel said:


> Not unless the CCRs at your resort are amended (which cannot be done by Marriott.)



This is why I think any system if it is ever introduced will be a pure point overlay system. Marriott will always sell weeks, except at perhaps new resorts.


----------



## tlwmkw

dioxide,

I agree- most of the resorts are sold out, or almost sold out, and it would be a nightmare (as well as extremely expensive) to re-do all the deeds, and it would be almost impossible to re-write the governing documents.  What will be interesting will be how they handle the newer resorts and sales.

tlwmkw


----------



## peppersmom

[_Message deleted. Posting duplicate messages on these forums is not permitted._ Dave M, BBS Moderator]


----------



## Bear1980

I wouldn't mind getting into RCI, so we can trade into Disney.  Those resorts are nice, and with a little one on the way, it might not be such a bad thing to trade into there once in a while.


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> This is why I think any system if it is ever introduced will be a pure point overlay system. Marriott will always sell weeks, except at perhaps new resorts.



I have felt similar about this myself. The only difference being that it very well could be a combination of a points overlay system for the already sold deeded weeks combined with a trust based ownership for all new sales. In that way, deeded week owners could participate in the points based program, Marriott could profit from a small enrollement fee and, Marriott could begin selling a purely points based product without a home resort advantage, allowing it to sell out slow moving projects like Crystal Shores or Willow Ridge in Branson.


----------



## dougp26364

Bear1980 said:


> I wouldn't mind getting into RCI, so we can trade into Disney.  Those resorts are nice, and with a little one on the way, it might not be such a bad thing to trade into there once in a while.



Since Marriott just renewed it's contract with Interval, I doubt you'll see an RCI affiliation anytime soon. IMHO, wanting to get into the few DVC resorts that exist would be a poor excuse to switch to RCI.


----------



## Bear1980

I guess my reasons are selfish, Doug.

I wouldn't mind staying at some of the Hiltons too.


----------



## Bear1980

For what it is worth, I emailed my Marriott sales guy who I've become friends with over the years.  I was told that they are being trained on the new system in June for a July rollout.

Take it for what it's worth.  I didn't get any other info about details other than it being optional to the owner whether or not they wanted to switch.


----------



## dougp26364

Bear1980 said:


> I guess my reasons are selfish, Doug.
> 
> I wouldn't mind staying at some of the Hiltons too.



That's why we also own a few points in Hiton's program.   I really love our Marriott property's but, it's not always a good idea to put all the eggs into one basket.


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## lrf

*i was just warned by marriott sales about resales come june*



Dave M said:


> Although I don't believe the salesperson referred to in the OP was accurate, particularly with respect to assigning units at a home resort, the salesperson was almost certainly accurate that big changes are forthcoming.
> 
> It is pretty clear that Marriott will be making some changes in June or, if the new program is delayed, sometime soon thereafter. What will the new program be? We don't know very much. What does seem pretty clear is that there will be a points program that will apply to many (most?) future timeshare sales by Marriott, will involve exchanging based on points and will be available to current Marriott timeshare owners - for a price. That price is supposed to be nominal (whatever that means) for those who have purchased their timeshares from Marriott and probably quite a bit more expensive for those who have purchased resale. The changes are not likely to affect the privileges that we are all guaranteed by the legal documents of our respective resorts. Rather they will likely offer an exchanging “enhancement” for those who wish to participate.
> 
> How do we know that some big changes are coming? We first heard about the changes almost two years ago. I have had some clearly-in-the-know Marriott people confirm those changes to me on several occasions over the past two years and I reported that information here each time. What we are now hearing is about the same as what I originally heard way back when. The only difference is that the effective date has been delayed by about six months, not unreasonable for such a big project in a down economy. Further, Fletch, a much respected member of the TUG community in past years who has just resigned from a very lucrative sales position at Marriott, has confirmed that a new program will be forthcoming this year (see the above link to his posts).
> 
> All we can do is wait to see what the details are and continue to speculate.
> 
> As to whether the changes will be good or bad, I'm certain the answer is a resounding YES! There is no way to be sure, but I'm guessing that platinum week owners at top resorts who bought from Marriott will love the new program and resale owners of bronze and silver weeks will hate it.



I realize these are old posts, but it seems that the marriott sales team is still using the same threats. I have decided to look resale versus buying direct thanks to information on TUG. My response from Marriott sales was to extend my deadline and to warn:

"i'm glad you didn't purchase that resale you told me about since come June anyone with weeks not purchase through Marriott will have a very difficult time going forward. I don't know what all the means, except that it came from pretty high sources"

I guess he has convinced me i should wait and see what the change means!


----------



## dougp26364

lrf said:


> I realize these are old posts, but it seems that the marriott sales team is still using the same threats. I have decided to look resale versus buying direct thanks to information on TUG. My response from Marriott sales was to extend my deadline and to warn:
> 
> "i'm glad you didn't purchase that resale you told me about since come June anyone with weeks not purchase through Marriott will have a very difficult time going forward. I don't know what all the means, except that it came from pretty high sources"
> 
> I guess he has convinced me i should wait and see what the change means!



Of course he wants you to wait. Marriott sales wants to scare off resale buyers. This despite the fact they SELL the idea that you can always SELL your timeshare if you don't want it anymore. All timeshare salesmen talk out of both sides of their mouths when it comes to resales.

Next time start out by asking them this. If I buy from you today and, say in 10 years, something happens and I can't use my timeshare anymore, can I sell it to someone else? Once they enthusiastically answer yes. Then say I guess the thing to do is find someone who wants to sell their unit and see if they'll take less than what you're trying to sell this unit for. Then sit back and watch the confunsion as they try to figure out how to get out of that one. 

Should they start running down resales, then you can hit them with why buy something that's worthless if I need to resell it later? You can really get them confused, back peddling and side stepping if you're one step ahead of them. 

The best thing you can do is buy where you are most likely to go. Then you don't have to worry about exchange values or internal exchange systems. You still have your deeded right to use your week and Marriott can't change that or take that away from you. If you're buying to exchange, remember, the exchange playing field changes frequently. This thread is evidence to that potential for change.


----------



## dioxide45

dougp26364 said:


> Next time start out by asking them this. If I buy from you today and, say in 10 years, something happens and I can't use my timeshare anymore, can I sell it to someone else? Once they enthusiastically answer yes. Then say I guess the thing to do is find someone who wants to sell their unit and see if they'll take less than what you're trying to sell this unit for. Then sit back and watch the confunsion as they try to figure out how to get out of that one.
> 
> Should they start running down resales, then you can hit them with why buy something that's worthless if I need to resell it later? You can really get them confused, back peddling and side stepping if you're one step ahead of them.



The sales folk are slick and they have a response for everything. Their answer to all of this will be "Marriott will sell it for you" it isn't worthless.


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## m61376

dioxide45 said:


> The sales folk are slick and they have a response for everything. Their answer to all of this will be "Marriott will sell it for you" it isn't worthless.



"Then I suppose you won't have any problem putting that in writing and, of  course, the time frame."
:hysterical:


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## brigechols

"With that written guarantee to sell the unit in a certain time frame, for the sake of completeness, be sure to include a provision that you will purchase the unit if it does not sell" :hysterical: :rofl:


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## lrf

Thanks to all for suggestions and education.  my 15% marriott celebration discount price lock is now gone....  i will find the right resale


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## m61376

lrf said:


> Thanks to all for suggestions and education.  my 15% marriott celebration discount price lock is now gone....  i will find the right resale


and welcome to Tug  
You might want to use a few dollars of what you saved and join for access to the review section before making a purchase.


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## Fredm

Marriott had its 1st Quarter conference call this morning.

Stated that there will not be any investment in the timeshare business for the "foreseeable future". 

Current weekly interval sales inventory is projected to last  ~3 years.

Timeshare sales margins are improving. Closing efficiencies have improved from 8% to 11%, plus operating expenses are down.

Rental business has increased 9%.

I don't know. This rumored point system is not a matter of national security.  If a new product introduction were on the horizon, they would have mentioned it while providing  guidance to the investment community.  Marriott was forthcoming about guidance on other business matters through 2011.


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## tlwmkw

Fredm,

Interesting points.  If Marriott saw this change as a huge new revenue stream then I would think that they would be letting investors know.  It does make you wonder if anything will transpire.

tlwmkw


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## SueDonJ

I think Marriott would have problems if they announced this rumored system in today's conference call before giving owners official notice, especially because this informed opinion disagrees that there is a need to announce it to stockholders.


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## lrf

m61376 said:


> and welcome to Tug
> You might want to use a few dollars of what you saved and join for access to the review section before making a purchase.



i already spent those $15. just hadn't updated my profile. thanks for noticing


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## Fredm

SueDonJ said:


> I think Marriott would have problems if they announced this rumored system in today's conference call before giving owners official notice, especially because this informed opinion disagrees that there is a need to announce it to stockholders.



There is not a regulatory requirement that it be disclosed.

But, they do provide "guidance" to the financial community. Every reasonable attempt is made to offer security analysts that cover the company with information about what can be expected in future quarters.  
All of 2010, and into 2011, was discussed for each of Marriott's business segments.

What's to hide about a new timeshare product? Especially if it is to be rolled out in the next quarter?

Oh, I get it! Marriott is telling their sales force, who are telling their sales prospects to expect an announcement  in June. But, they are not informing timeshare owners, who must be consulted before they tell the people who advise the owners of the company (the stock holders) about it.

Does that really make any sense to you?   Not to me.


----------



## billymach4

Fredm said:


> Marriott had its 1st Quarter conference call this morning.
> 
> Stated that there will not be any investment in the timeshare business for the "foreseeable future".
> 
> Current weekly interval sales inventory is projected to last  ~3 years.
> 
> Timeshare sales margins are improving. Closing efficiencies have improved from 8% to 11%, plus operating expenses are down.
> 
> Rental business has increased 9%.
> 
> I don't know. This rumored point system is not a matter of national security.  If a new product introduction were on the horizon, they would have mentioned it while providing  guidance to the investment community.  Marriott was forthcoming about guidance on other business matters through 2011.



Oh I know! They are going to show the sales force how to find a new career in sales since Marriott will no longer be building any new units. That is what this big 2 week meeting/ Session/ pow wow/ seminar in June is all about!


----------



## dougp26364

I had a night off for a change and, as is my habit, thoughts of vacation and vacation planning are something I gravitate towards. Having given all the rumors, doomsday predictions et... much thought, I've come to a few conclusions.

1. Who cares. Marriott is going to make changes. All timeshare organizations make changes. If they don't, they die. Of course we're in a decent position with our Marriott ownership because we're still interested in using the Marriott weeks we purchased but.......times change and I'm sure that won't always be the case.

2. When looking over my options, I have three of 7 units that are in two different points based exchange systems, HGVC and DRI. Guess which is the more flexible and offers me the greatest options, points or weeks. If you guessed points your right. There's a great deal more manipulation I can do with points over Marriott's current weeks based program. 

Points offer advantages.

1. I can make internal exchanges and avoid paying RCI or Interval exchange fee's

2. I can take advantage of slower seasons, which require fewer points.

3. I can move up to higher seasons by combining points from all my units or combing points from different years.

4. If I can't use my points this year, I can save them into next year. If things change I can borrow them back into this year.

5. I can take short trips less than a week.

6. I'm not locked into traditional arrival departure days. This allows me flexibility to take advantage of lower airfares.

7. If I have a late flight departure, which is often the case for us in Hawaii, I can extend my stay to 8 nights and have use of the resort for that last day. It allows me to leave at my leasure rather than having to find something to do and carry all my luggage around town in my car (or check it with the resort bell boys).

8. If I don't need to use all my points for the stays I want, I can use those points to offset the costs of other services like rental cars, convert to FF miles, save for a bigger vacation next year or maybe knock a few dollars off a cruise we've been wanting to take. 

9. If I exchange through Interval International and I wait until the Flexchange period, the point cost for a week is 50%. That would allow us two weeks of vacation for the price of one if I'm flexible. 

10. There is no waste in value. If I hold a higher value resort and want to go to a resort with fewer amenities, maybe an area that doesn't have a lot of high end resorts or, maybe I want to go in a lower season (say Gold rather than Platinum), I don't have to waste my entier high value week to get that exchange. 

Sure I know everyone's nervous about the cost of the new program, can week keep our deeds, home resort advantage and where our weeks will fall on the points valuation chart but, we're pulling a Peter Pan and fighting with our shadow on the wall. There's nothing solid to hang our hats on. 

It's good to talk about it. It's good to look at what other systems are doing. It's good to have knowledge so that once it's official, we'll be able to ask good questions. It's foolish to worry about something that hasn't happened yet. 

I'm enouraged that Marriott is considering a points based system. If it's a good one we may have five of our seven weeks in points based systems, leaving only the two Branson weeks we own as traditional points based exchange weeks. In my mind that coud be a very good thing for us.


----------



## dioxide45

dougp26364 said:


> I had a night off for a change and, as is my habit, thoughts of vacation and vacation planning are something I gravitate towards. Having given all the rumors, doomsday predictions et... much thought, I've come to a few conclusions.
> 
> 1. Who cares. Marriott is going to make changes. All timeshare organizations make changes. If they don't, they die. Of course we're in a decent position with our Marriott ownership because we're still interested in using the Marriott weeks we purchased but.......times change and I'm sure that won't always be the case.



True, we are in the same position.



> 2. When looking over my options, I have three of 7 units that are in two different points based exchange systems, HGVC and DRI. Guess which is the more flexible and offers me the greatest options, points or weeks. If you guessed points your right. There's a great deal more manipulation I can do with points over Marriott's current weeks based program.



I don't own a points system. So can't compare.



> Points offer advantages.
> 
> 1. I can make internal exchanges and avoid paying RCI or Interval exchange fee's



Who is to say that Marriott won't charge a per transaction fee?



> 2. I can take advantage of slower seasons, which require fewer points.



I can also do this in the Marriott weeks system. Using our lock off and getting two larger units. I am careful not to say upgrading, because that is not what we are doing, we are exchanging a good trading week for a larger unit in a dog season. People think that only unit size counts when "working the system". Two weeks for the price of one. Perhaps this is also possible in a points system. But there is flexibility in both.



> 3. I can move up to higher seasons by combining points from all my units or combing points from different years.



I can do this too in weeks, perhaps not super prime weeks, but we aren't looking for those weeks either.



> 4. If I can't use my points this year, I can save them into next year. If things change I can borrow them back into this year.



Same thing in weeks. If I can't use my week this year, I deposit it in II and can use it for two to three years.



> 5. I can take short trips less than a week.



Can do this too with IIs short stay exchange, and actually get credit for 7 nights instead of the actual nights stayed.



> 6. I'm not locked into traditional arrival departure days. This allows me flexibility to take advantage of lower airfares.



Points does have a slight advantage here, though there are ways to work the Marriott split stay option to accomplish the same thing.



> 7. If I have a late flight departure, which is often the case for us in Hawaii, I can extend my stay to 8 nights and have use of the resort for that last day. It allows me to leave at my leasure rather than having to find something to do and carry all my luggage around town in my car (or check it with the resort bell boys).



No argument here, we would have to book an extra night under the weeks system.



> 8. If I don't need to use all my points for the stays I want, I can use those points to offset the costs of other services like rental cars, convert to FF miles, save for a bigger vacation next year or maybe knock a few dollars off a cruise we've been wanting to take.



I wouldn't think these would tend to be a great use of points. Though if they were just going to waste...



> 9. If I exchange through Interval International and I wait until the Flexchange period, the point cost for a week is 50%. That would allow us two weeks of vacation for the price of one if I'm flexible.


Will Marriott work the same way though, or will one just be depositing a regular week in to II?



> 10. There is no waste in value. If I hold a higher value resort and want to go to a resort with fewer amenities, maybe an area that doesn't have a lot of high end resorts or, maybe I want to go in a lower season (say Gold rather than Platinum), I don't have to waste my entier high value week to get that exchange.



I can see this, a lot of dedicated 3BR owners have to often trade down to exchange out of their home resort.



> Sure I know everyone's nervous about the cost of the new program, can week keep our deeds, home resort advantage and where our weeks will fall on the points valuation chart but, we're pulling a Peter Pan and fighting with our shadow on the wall. There's nothing solid to hang our hats on.
> 
> It's good to talk about it. It's good to look at what other systems are doing. It's good to have knowledge so that once it's official, we'll be able to ask good questions. It's foolish to worry about something that hasn't happened yet.
> 
> I'm enouraged that Marriott is considering a points based system. If it's a good one we may have five of our seven weeks in points based systems, leaving only the two Branson weeks we own as traditional points based exchange weeks. In my mind that coud be a very good thing for us.


----------



## dougp26364

The main difference between doing the same thing in weeks and doing it in points is that you can actually plan it out with points. You know the value. While I can do the same thing with Marriott's weeks based system (we make the same moves you do in locking out and trading "up"), it's all guess work. With points I can look directly at Interval's TDI charts and I know what I'm going to pay. Lower demand, lower points requirements. Select the correct week and save points. Select the wrong week and pay a premium. 

HGVC has an internal exchange fee but, it's not nearly what RCI's exchange fee's are. Both programs we're in have membership fee's as well. These are still less than paying multiple exchange fee's through either RCI or Interval. If Marriott's going to be competitive, they'll have to be competitive on price. 

As to Interval's short stays, I don't think you've really taken a good look at that program. It is extremely limited in availability. Having a short stay alternative internally for any Marriott resort would be a huge advantage over Interval's option and the current Marriott split week option. Try searching Interval's short stay options online and see how you feel about it.

None exchange options like rental cars, cruises et....are never a great value unless you get the vacations you want AND have extra points left over. That's what's happened to use with DRI. I'm still getting the exchanges I was getting under their weeks program but, I still have left over points. 15,000 points will get me the two 2 bedroom exchanges I was asking for with our weeks. After that I have 11,500 points left over. The gives us our exchanges PLUS extra value we didn't get before. Even if I pay 10 cents per point and only get 6 cents of value in return, it's 6 cents per point more than I was getting by just exchanging week for week.


----------



## sparty

Fredm said:


> Marriott had its 1st Quarter conference call this morning.
> 
> Stated that there will not be any investment in the timeshare business for the "foreseeable future".
> 
> Current weekly interval sales inventory is projected to last  ~3 years.
> 
> Timeshare sales margins are improving. Closing efficiencies have improved from 8% to 11%, plus operating expenses are down.
> 
> Rental business has increased 9%.
> 
> I don't know. This rumored point system is not a matter of national security.  If a new product introduction were on the horizon, they would have mentioned it while providing  guidance to the investment community.  Marriott was forthcoming about guidance on other business matters through 2011.



Will have to check if they have a recorded replay of the call, I suspect they probably do.

I would say if they didn't disclose consideration was underway regarding changes to the rewards program and it could have a material impact on shareholder value, they could suffer legal liabilities regarding safe harbour.

No investment in timeshare going forward? What about Lakeshore Reserve? What type of color are they giving in their shareholder meeting?


----------



## Fredm

sparty said:


> Will have to check if they have a recorded replay of the call, I suspect they probably do.



Yes they do. On Marriott.com.

Sign up under Investor Relations.


----------



## SueDonJ

Fredm said:


> There is not a regulatory requirement that it be disclosed.
> 
> But, they do provide "guidance" to the financial community. Every reasonable attempt is made to offer security analysts that cover the company with information about what can be expected in future quarters.
> All of 2010, and into 2011, was discussed for each of Marriott's business segments.
> 
> What's to hide about a new timeshare product? Especially if it is to be rolled out in the next quarter?
> 
> Oh, I get it! Marriott is telling their sales force, who are telling their sales prospects to expect an announcement  in June. But, they are not informing timeshare owners, who must be consulted before they tell the people who advise the owners of the company (the stock holders) about it.
> 
> Does that really make any sense to you?   Not to me.



What if it's not technically a "new timeshare product," but simply an overlay system for internal exchanges?  If that's the case then it does make perfect sense to me that Marriott would not make an official announcement until owners have been given notice. 

I'm curious - Did Marriott release info related to the AP points system in a quarterly conference call, prior to an official notification to eligible owners?

{edited to add} More fodder - over on the Exchanging board there's a thread about II raising fees $10 come July, except for Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges.  Hmmm.  Could be they're trying to do what they can to remain competitive with another internal exchange option ...


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning.....

Perhaps II will be more liberal with AC's (bonus weeks) in order to encourage MVCI owners to keep their "deeded" weeks and make deposits with II...

just a thought.....


----------



## Fredm

SueDonJ said:


> What if it's not technically a "new timeshare product," but simply an overlay system for internal exchanges?  If that's the case then it does make perfect sense to me that Marriott would not make an official announcement until owners have been given notice.
> 
> I'm curious - Did Marriott release info related to the AP points system in a quarterly conference call, prior to an official notification to eligible owners?



Sue, good point.

If this whole thing is simply an internal exchange game, rather than Marriott actually selling points, then its no big deal. The purpose is to mine the existing owner base for fees. No earth-shattering new there. Just a shift in usage methodology.

But, if Marriott intends to sell points going forward, that's a whole different ball of wax. It's a new product. 

But, in either case Marriott would, in its guidance to the investment community, advise that is looking forward to "new and innovative products intended to strengthen fee revenue, blah, blah...". IF it had anything to say.

They did exactly that when discussing hotel conversion prospects for new Autograph properties during the conference call. They represent market opportunities.

Again, what's to hide?

The AP program did not effect "eligible owners" It was a new product for a new market.


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## SueDonJ

I'm not sure that it's so much, "what's to hide?" but rather, "why invite owner questions/complaints before we're ready to roll out?"  That's one way for me to look at it with my wishful thinking, because I'm pretty sure a points-based internal exchange system will be better than what we (personally) currently get from II.

I thought existing owners of the AP-inclusive resorts were eligible at rollout to convert their deeded weeks to points?


----------



## Fredm

SueDonJ said:


> I thought existing owners of the AP-inclusive resorts were eligible at rollout to convert their deeded weeks to points?



Sorry, I thought you meant when the AP program was first introduced.


----------



## Fredm

SueDonJ said:


> I'm not sure that it's so much, "what's to hide?" but rather, "why invite owner questions/complaints before we're ready to roll out?"  That's one way for me to look at it with my wishful thinking, because I'm pretty sure a points-based internal exchange system will be better than what we (personally) currently get from II.




I thought that is exactly was was happening because they have not said anything, except what sales reps are passing around.


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## SueDonJ

Fredm said:


> I thought that is exactly was was happening because they have not said anything, except what sales reps are passing around.



Yeah, except now if somebody calls a Marriott VIP to ask about all these rumors the VIP can say, "sorry, the sales rep 'misspoke' and we do not have an official statement to give."  But if/when they do give an official statement, which is what any announcement yesterday would have been, then they'll have to respond to questions/complaints.


----------



## SueDonJ

Fredm said:


> Sorry, I thought you meant when the AP program was first introduced.



Ah, sorry for the confusion, I meant when they rolled out the conversion option.  In either case, though, 2007 when the AP program was introduced and/or 2009 when the conversion option was rolled out, was a related official statement released prior?


----------



## Fredm

SueDonJ said:


> Ah, sorry for the confusion, I meant when they rolled out the conversion option.  In either case, though, 2007 when the AP program was introduced and/or 2009 when the conversion option was rolled out, was a related official statement released prior?



I don't know about the 2009 conversion. Perhaps I can find it somewhere, or not.

The AP program was introduced in 2002, I believe. Maybe, 2003.
I cannot say if it was pre-announced or not.
I do recall it was rolled out with much fanfare. It was in the newspapers, etc. But, that was an entirely new product for a new market.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> {edited to add} More fodder - over on the Exchanging board there's a thread about II raising fees $10 come July, except for Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges.  Hmmm.  Could be they're trying to do what they can to remain competitive with another internal exchange option ...



Well, II did just increase the Marriott to Marriott exchange fee by $10 in January. I don't think they increased the other fees at that time. So I wouldn't read to much in to the increase on domestic fees but no Marriott fees. They already dinged us for an extra $10 once, not a sign they are trying to lure us in.


----------



## Fredm

dioxide45 said:


> Well, II did just increase the Marriott to Marriott exchange fee by $10 in January. I don't think they increased the other fees at that time. So I wouldn't read to much in to the increase on domestic fees but no Marriott fees. They already dinged us for an extra $10 once, not a sign they are trying to lure us in.



Not surprising. Without new development, there are not many new members paying dues. I.I. is  making up for it by milking the member base.


----------



## taffy19

I just noticed a post by Fletch in another thread so looked at several of his other posts too.  He worked for the Marriott and since he was able to sell all resorts, he must have been kept up to date more than local sales people at a specific resort.  I just reread his post here again so why are we worrying so much if the point program is a plus or minus?

I heard more than once on Maui that they will no longer sell deeded weeks after June so instead they will sell deeded points.  I still feel that everyone would have a certain time advantage to reserve the points (time) at their own resort before other people can book at that resort too.  With the point system you may have more flexibility and choices like a better view or building.

I feel now that they told us that deeded weeks will no longer be sold so that would give us or any prospect the urgency to buy now and not wait.  If it would be better to own a deeded week than owning a package of deeded points at a resort will depend on how more flexible the new system is and what the costs are.

Whatever is best for the consumer will win and Marriott shouldn't forget that if they want to thrive in the future. When I am reading the Starwood board, I am not so optimistic for their future.  JMHO.


----------



## dougp26364

Fredm said:


> Not surprising. Without new development, there are not many new members paying dues. I.I. is  making up for it by milking the member base.



Or maybe their expenses have just been going up like everyone else's. I know as an employee, I pretty much like getting a raise each year. Without it I'm thinking about finding a new employer. Taxes go up. Utility costs go up. Rent goes up. Prices go up. IMHO, that's not milking their owner base. It's simply the cost of doing business.


----------



## dougp26364

iconnections said:


> I just noticed a post by Fletch in another thread so looked at several of his other posts too.  He worked for the Marriott and since he was able to sell all resorts, he must have been kept up to date more than local sales people at a specific resort.  I just reread his post here again so why are we worrying so much if the point program is a plus or minus?
> 
> I heard more than once on Maui that they will no longer sell deeded weeks after June so instead they will sell deeded points.  I still feel that everyone would have a certain time advantage to reserve the points (time) at their own resort before other people can book at that resort too.  With the point system you may have more flexibility and choices like a better view or building.
> 
> I feel now that they told us that deeded weeks will no longer be sold so that would give us or any prospect the urgency to buy now and not wait.  If it would be better to own a deeded week than owning a package of deeded points at a resort will depend on how more flexible the new system is and what the costs are.
> 
> Whatever is best for the consumer will win and Marriott shouldn't forget that if they want to thrive in the future. When I am reading the Starwood board, I am not so optimistic for their future.  JMHO.



It's just change. Change causes panic. People panic. Especially when one or two tuggers start shouting that the sky is falling and the world as we know it is coming to an end. 

Yes it will be different. Yes some will not see a benefit to the new program. Yes it may be detrimental to some owners. BUT, this could be a very good change for the majority of owners. None of us will know until Marriott releases the details. Sure Marriott feels it can make more money this way. Timesharing in general has changed towards a points based world and, there are a few timeshares that have gravitated towards trust based owenrships, which are very similar to the RTU ownerships of years ago. Marriott can change with the market or, it can remain where it is. Agressive companies move with the market. Company's that fail, fail to change. 

I'm excited about a new opportunity. When I get the details maybe I won't be so excited. Maybe I'll stick with things the way they are. In looking at the way our present ownerships with other companies are set up, my bet is I'm more likely to change with the tide than fight the change of the tide.


----------



## Fredm

dougp26364 said:


> Or maybe their expenses have just been going up like everyone else's. I know as an employee, I pretty much like getting a raise each year. Without it I'm thinking about finding a new employer. Taxes go up. Utility costs go up. Rent goes up. Prices go up. IMHO, that's not milking their owner base. It's simply the cost of doing business.



OK, "milking" may not have been the best term. How about "mining"?

Same end result, for the same reason. Few new members.


----------



## dougp26364

Fredm said:


> OK, "milking" may not have been the best term. How about "mining"?
> 
> Same end result, for the same reason. Few new members.



Milking, mining, you're still saying the same thing. Without facts it's hard to say. Assuming never works very well. 

Maybe membership has dropped off or, maybe expenses have gone up or, maybe it's a combination of both. At any rate, it seems to be more commmon for prices to go up over time than it is for them to go down. When was the last time Interval had a price increase for it's exchanges or for it's membership fee? While we're at it, when was the last time MF's on any timeshare you own went up? Interval has been very reasonable with rate increases over the years.


----------



## Fredm

dougp26364 said:


> Milking, mining, you're still saying the same thing. Without facts it's hard to say. Assuming never works very well.
> 
> Maybe membership has dropped off or, maybe expenses have gone up or, maybe it's a combination of both. At any rate, it seems to be more commmon for prices to go up over time than it is for them to go down. When was the last time Interval had a price increase for it's exchanges or for it's membership fee? While we're at it, when was the last time MF's on any timeshare you own went up? Interval has been very reasonable with rate increases over the years.



Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed.

Milking, mining, charging, assessing....

Obviously, fees are increased to cover higher operating costs. 
All I said is it is not surprising since there are few new members to cover these costs. No more, no less.
I agree, I.I. provides a good service for the money.


----------



## DanCali

Increasing fees can reduce revenues if people get disgusted and stop paying membership fees or trading (I can argue the same about tax increases...). 

Depending on the elasticity of demand, lowering fees can actually increase revenues.


----------



## dougp26364

Fredm said:


> Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed.
> 
> Milking, mining, charging, assessing....
> 
> Obviously, fees are increased to cover higher operating costs.
> All I said is it is not surprising since there are few new members to cover these costs. No more, no less.
> I agree, I.I. provides a good service for the money.



Sorry, I obviously came across wrong. It just sounded as if you were accusing Interval of raising fee's to increase profits rather than increasing fee's secondary to increased business expenses.


----------



## Fredm

DanCali said:


> Increasing fees can reduce revenues if people get disgusted and stop paying membership fees or trading (I can argue the same about tax increases...).
> 
> Depending on the elasticity of demand, lowering fees can actually increase revenues.



True, both ways.

To I.I.'s credit, they have always waited for RCI to increase fees before they would risk a fee increase. I.I. has always maintained a lower fee schedule than RCI.


----------



## AceValenta

I just reserved my Royal Palms Gold and didn't deposit...I received the following letter. I don't know if the last paragraph means anything...I haven't called yet:

_The following exchange options are available to you:

Deposit First- Provides up to a three year travel window. This method requires you to relinquish the right to your reserved home resort week first then request your exchange in the future.

Request First- If you want the security of retaining your home resort week until a confirmation if received, choose this method, which provides up to a one year travel window._
_*
Special Marriott Internal Exchange- Provides a combination of Deposit First and Request First options. Call Interval International's Marriott Desk and ask the advisor for more details regarding this special exchange option. *_

_When you contact Interval International to request your exchange, please provide a minimum of three exchange choices. If one of your choices is available, Interval International will confirm you immediately and provide a written confirmation. If one of your choices is not available, place a vacation exchange request. Should one of your requested exchange choices become available, you will receive a confirmation from Interval International. Otherwise, Interval International will contact you periodically to review the status of your request._


----------



## dougp26364

AceValenta said:


> I just reserved my Royal Palms Gold and didn't deposit...I received the following letter. I don't know if the last paragraph means anything...I haven't called yet:
> 
> _The following exchange options are available to you:
> 
> Deposit First- Provides up to a three year travel window. This method requires you to relinquish the right to your reserved home resort week first then request your exchange in the future.
> 
> Request First- If you want the security of retaining your home resort week until a confirmation if received, choose this method, which provides up to a one year travel window._
> _*
> Special Marriott Internal Exchange- Provides a combination of Deposit First and Request First options. Call Interval International's Marriott Desk and ask the advisor for more details regarding this special exchange option. *_
> 
> _When you contact Interval International to request your exchange, please provide a minimum of three exchange choices. If one of your choices is available, Interval International will confirm you immediately and provide a written confirmation. If one of your choices is not available, place a vacation exchange request. Should one of your requested exchange choices become available, you will receive a confirmation from Interval International. Otherwise, Interval International will contact you periodically to review the status of your request._



I don't think it means anything. Marriott has had a special Marriott to Marriott preference that is sometime refered to as an internal exchange program. For the first 24 days (I think it's 24 days), only other Marriott owners can see a Marriott deposit. Marriott to Marriott exchanges are also less expensive then exchanging into non-Marriott resorts. Marriott to Marriott exchanges are $109 vs the $139 (soon to be $149) rate normally charged by I.I.


----------



## Dean

AceValenta said:


> I just reserved my Royal Palms Gold and didn't deposit...I received the following letter. I don't know if the last paragraph means anything...I haven't called yet:
> 
> _The following exchange options are available to you:
> 
> Deposit First- Provides up to a three year travel window. This method requires you to relinquish the right to your reserved home resort week first then request your exchange in the future.
> 
> Request First- If you want the security of retaining your home resort week until a confirmation if received, choose this method, which provides up to a one year travel window._
> _*
> Special Marriott Internal Exchange- Provides a combination of Deposit First and Request First options. Call Interval International's Marriott Desk and ask the advisor for more details regarding this special exchange option. *_
> 
> _When you contact Interval International to request your exchange, please provide a minimum of three exchange choices. If one of your choices is available, Interval International will confirm you immediately and provide a written confirmation. If one of your choices is not available, place a vacation exchange request. Should one of your requested exchange choices become available, you will receive a confirmation from Interval International. Otherwise, Interval International will contact you periodically to review the status of your request._


Standard exchange language that's been around for some time.


----------



## AceValenta

Thanks....Wasn't sure.


----------



## aruba72

*Guess what I find out!*

So I just talked with my friend, who just stayed the week in Boston at Marriott's Custom House, with her husband. While they stayed there for the week they went to a seminar all about points and exchanging put on by the sales rep ( I think Tim?) and then decided to also meet with him after for a sales presentation. As I referred her to the program she was telling me some information that I did not know that much about. The sales rep told them a little more in depth about resales. I knew some things about it , but what she told me was very unusual. He told them that resales was like normal real estate and that they could make an offer. They put in an offer for a Platinum 2 bedroom Mountainside ski week that normally sells for $53,000 by the developer.They decided to put in an offer for $30,000 they came up with this price by looking up similiar weeks on the interent, and then decided the points were worth a little bit more. There offer was accepted! And their rep showed them how to earn over 500,000 points in the first year. They are super excited becuase they're going to use the points for a 14 night trip to  Austrailia and flying first class. She told me what this trip would cost them is more than what they paid for thier Park City week. Can anyone tell me how she thinks this? So it makes me wonder, of all the previous notes in this tug conversation does this have something to do with the changes?!?


----------



## Swice

*It sounds to me...*

It sounds like to me this had nothing to do with the new "points" system.

I assume this was a marriott-coordinated "resale" ... the same kind of transaction that could have occurred at any point over the last ten years.

Marriott coordinated the "resale" transaction ... and earned a nice commission.    Since the people used Marriott for the transaction, there were Marriott Rewards points thrown at them.     People can use those Marriott Rewards points in about a hundred million ways (details on marriott.com).    

The "rumor" on this board has been about timeshares converting from a "week" system to a "point" system.    In simple terms-- your "week" equals a set number of points.     Those "points" could be used to stay for 7-nights in a timeshare-- or -- more or less nights depending on location and time of year.

We assume the "points" system would be connected, but not exactly like the traditional "Marriott Rewards" point system.    We don't know what the timeshare points system will be like -- yet.

Think of the Marriott Rewards points just like you do an airline Frequent Flyer program.  

Others-- did I explain correctly?


----------



## hipslo

Swice said:


> I assume this was a marriott-coordinated "resale" ... the same kind of transaction that could have occurred at any point over the last ten years.
> 
> Marriott coordinated the "resale" transaction ... and earned a nice commission.    Since the people used Marriott for the transaction, there were Marriott Rewards points thrown at them.



Maybe, but paying 30k for a platinum ski week at mountainside (higher than current resale prices, but much lower than current developer pricing) and also getting points would be something of a big deal.


----------



## hipslo

hipslo said:


> Maybe, but paying 30k for a platinum ski week at mountainside (higher than current resale prices, but much lower than current developer pricing) and also getting points would be something of a big deal.




Actually, maybe I should take that back.  MS weeks are currently going for around 20k, give or take, resale.  Paying another 10k for 500,000 points does not seem like a good deal.


----------



## davidvel

I am curious how they are "earning" 500K points in the first year.


----------



## moltenlava

I was going to purchase a resale in Palm Desert area (DSV or SR), but this thread is now making me nervous.  The plan was to purchase DSV or SR, and use this timeshare to exchange into oceanside resorts in Hawaii, Caribbean, or Mexico.  I understand DSV and SR are a good value with low MF with relatively good trade strength.  

Now I am having a second thought as Palm Desert Marriott may not be strong enough to trade into Marriott Hawaiian resorts and Caribbean resorts after the conversion to point system.  If the conversion to the point system indeed happens, I think the points assigned to each resort will be more or less proportional to the MF for the resort.  Point to MF ratio is the common metric used to determine the value of the resort today.  I would imagine Marriott will keep the point to MF ratio the same, or very close to each other for their resorts.  

If that's going to happen, then the current advantage of DSV with low MF will disappear after the point conversion.  After all, Hawaiian and Caribbean Marriott resorts usually sell for 2x of DSV or SR, and MF for those resorts are also roughly 2x of DSV or SR.  I think it's only fair to assign the points proportional to the MF.

Does it make sense?  Any thoughts?


----------



## billymach4

moltenlava said:


> I was going to purchase a resale in Palm Desert area (DSV or SR), but this thread is now making me nervous.  The plan was to purchase DSV or SR, and use this timeshare to exchange into oceanside resorts in Hawaii, Caribbean, or Mexico.  I understand DSV and SR are a good value with low MF with relatively good trade strength.
> 
> Now I am having a second thought as Palm Desert Marriott may not be strong enough to trade into Marriott Hawaiian resorts and Caribbean resorts after the conversion to point system.  If the conversion to the point system indeed happens, I think the points assigned to each resort will be more or less proportional to the MF for the resort.  Point to MF ratio is the common metric used to determine the value of the resort today.  I would imagine Marriott will keep the point to MF ratio the same, or very close to each other for their resorts.
> 
> If that's going to happen, then the current advantage of DSV with low MF will disappear after the point conversion.  After all, Hawaiian and Caribbean Marriott resorts usually sell for 2x of DSV or SR, and MF for those resorts are also roughly 2x of DSV or SR.  I think it's only fair to assign the points proportional to the MF.
> 
> Does it make sense?  Any thoughts?



Makes no sense whatsoever.......

There is absolutely no known fact regarding the so called point system, Internal Trade system or whatever you want to call it. 

Up to now this whole discussion has been an inflated rumor. I will even tell you that Marriott can be preparing to stop all new development, and sell off the remainder of new inventory as of this year. 

All we have seen here are silly rumors and statements that have been perpetuated by some well known insiders, and people that have been told lies by salespeople. 

I have not seen or heard of any official statement from Marriott. Until I see any announcement from Marriott or MVCI I will continue to classify this whole subject a false rumor. 

I firmly believe that we are self perpetuating this rumor. Marriott and Marriott employees read here on Tug, and can even post on Tug using an alias. This too has led to the rumor mongering of this subject.


That is my story and I am sticking to it!


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## worldtraveler

I think there is truth to the notion that Marriott will have some upcoming changes....I heard from a sales rep yesterday that Marriott will definitely have something...BUT that it's going to be "enhancements" to the owners (all inclusive or not -- I don't know). For sure, Marriott is not changing to "points" completely.  We'll just have to wait and see.


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## winger

davidvel said:


> I am curious how they are "earning" 500K points in the first year.


Let me try. Assuming $30k price. Annual exchange-for-pts of 100k

Using Marriott Premiere Visa (Black one) $30k x 5pt/$ = *150,000 pts*
Upfront Purchase Incentive = *150,000 pts*
Current Year, Non-Use: *100,000 pts*
Next Year, Non-use: *100,000 pts*

Grand Total of funky points math = *500,000 pts*


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## Clark

Swice said:


> The "rumor" on this board has been about timeshares converting from a "week" system to a "point" system.    In simple terms-- your "week" equals a set number of points.     Those "points" could be used to stay for 7-nights in a timeshare-- or -- more or less nights depending on location and time of year.
> 
> We assume the "points" system would be connected, but not exactly like the traditional "Marriott Rewards" point system.    We don't know what the timeshare points system will be like -- yet.
> 
> Think of the Marriott Rewards points just like you do an airline Frequent Flyer program.
> 
> Others-- did I explain correctly?



Uhhh --  Are you asking if you correctly explained the rumor which, being a rumor, could be correctly explaining something that is incorrect, which might be seen as incorrectly explaining the rumor, or if the rumor is correct and also correctly explained which should be seen as correctly explaining the rumor, but being a rumor, how can you tell if it you are correctly explaining a correct or an incorrect rumor, not to mention the possibility that you have incorrectly explained a correct (or maybe not) rumor which by just the plain luck of two wrongs making a right maybe resulted in a correct explanation. Or not.

In other words, I'm not sure ---


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## taffy19

I was reading my last post over and I referred to "deeded" points.  What I really meant was that the points stay associated with the resort where people had bought before or are buying from here on as prices were or will be so different from one resort to another.  I believe that Wyndham does their point sales like that and the Hilton too.  You keep the advantages of reserving first at your home resort before other people can.

If there is no home resort then that would really make it difficult to book at your own resort because it depends who is ahead of you making reservations online or even on the phone, if everyone is treated the same.

I called Interval International the other day to deposit our 1 BR unit to get that extra bonus week and asked her several times if I will still be able to get a 1 BR unit back at our resort if the Marriott is going to have that rumored internal exchange system and she said yes.

I wonder how soon we will hear an announcement from Marriott or if we hear nothing at all.


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## dioxide45

I think if Marriott is wanting to unload the undesirable weeks that they have in inventory, they have no choice but to eliminate home resort priority. A person wants to buy enough points to go to Orlando every year, they deed you enough points at Marco to get you in to Orlando. The problem is that amount of points would only get you four days in Marco and that person didn't want Marco in the first place. The only thing that makes sense is no home resort priority.


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## taffy19

dioxide45 said:


> I think if Marriott is wanting to unload the undesirable weeks that they have in inventory, they have no choice but to eliminate home resort priority. A person wants to buy enough points to go to Orlando every year, they deed you enough points at Marco to get you in to Orlando. The problem is that amount of points would only get you four days in Marco and that person didn't want Marco in the first place. The only thing that makes sense is no home resort priority.


Undesirable to whom?    I wouldn't want to own a platinum week at the NCV's, for instance, as that is a time I would never want to be there so a gold week would be much more attractive to us and many other people too.

It may be the summer weeks in the desert or the mud weeks in ski areas that may be harder to get rid of but the shoulder seasons shouldn't make much difference.  Again, JMHO.


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## dioxide45

iconnections said:


> Undesirable to whom?    I wouldn't want to own a platinum week at the NCV's, for instance, as that is a time I would never want to be there so a gold week would be much more attractive to us and many other people too.
> 
> It may be the summer weeks in the desert or the mud weeks in ski areas that may be harder to get rid of but the shoulder seasons shouldn't make much difference.  Again, JMHO.



They are obviously undesirable to many, or Marriott wouldn't still be holding on to lots of them in their unsold inventory. The statements made in the many threads is that Marriott wants to unload their difficult to sell inventory. I replaced "difficult to sell" with "undesirable".

I agree that platinum season isn't desirable to us, we just don't want to travel during prime times. For most people though, this is the desirable weeks and the shoulder and off season are considered undesirable.


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## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> They are obviously undesirable to many, or Marriott wouldn't still be holding on to lots of them in their unsold inventory.



Actually they may be quite desirable - but very overpriced...


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## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> Actually they may be quite desirable - but very overpriced...



Which I would guess makes them difficult to sell, or undesirable. Just about anything is desirable if the price is right.

A nice fancy sports car is not desirable to me at $80K, but price it at $10K and it gets very desirable.


----------



## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> I think if Marriott is wanting to unload the undesirable weeks that they have in inventory, they have no choice but to eliminate home resort priority. A person wants to buy enough points to go to Orlando every year, they deed you enough points at Marco to get you in to Orlando. The problem is that amount of points would only get you four days in Marco and that person didn't want Marco in the first place. The only thing that makes sense is no home resort priority.


I think either system is workable with or without a home resort priority depending on specifics.  Even with a home resort priority you likely would lose the season priority but might keep the underlying week priority.  One of the problems with converting to a no home resort priority is in incorporating existing owners, many of whom have bought specifically at a give resort and season for a reason.  Bluegreen, Club Intrawest, etc do not have a home resort priority, DVC does and Westin and Hyatt in a sense do from what I understand.  It would be much easier and simply to convert existing members to any new points system with a home resort priority but likely easier to sell new resorts without one.  It should be interesting to see what happens, if anything.


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## taffy19

dioxide45 said:


> Which I would guess makes them difficult to sell, or undesirable. *Just about anything is desirable if the price is right.*
> 
> A nice fancy sports car is not desirable to me at $80K, but price it at $10K and it gets very desirable.


So true.  

My worry is how are they combining the two systems together?  A new system and an old system, if people do not want to convert, it has to give problems eventually.  It's not a problem we have to deal with because we bought a fixed week/unit but I would be very worried if I had a floating week/unit in a popular resort where I would like to return to often with two different systems.

I know how difficult it was reserving at our old resort where we loved to go to every year because we were a one week owner.  How are you going to compete with the person who owns the most points in the new program?  You will have to keep buying more points to stay in the game.  It's great for the Marriott or any other timeshare developer but expensive for the timeshare owner.


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## davidvel

hipslo said:


> Actually, maybe I should take that back.  MS weeks are currently going for around 20k, give or take, resale.  Paying another 10k for 500,000 points does not seem like a good deal.


My post:


davidvel said:


> I am curious how they are "earning" 500K points in the first year.


and reply:


winger said:


> Let me try. Assuming $30k price. Annual exchange-for-pts of 100k
> 
> Using Marriott Premiere Visa (Black one) $30k x 5pt/$ = *150,000 pts*
> Upfront Purchase Incentive = *150,000 pts*
> Current Year, Non-Use: *100,000 pts*
> Next Year, Non-use: *100,000 pts*
> 
> Grand Total of funky points math = *500,000 pts*



Given your example (assuming they get 150K bonus), I restate: they don't get 500K for their extra $10,000. They only get 300k (if they have a Marriot Black card: 150K bonus+150K card). Without card they are buying 150K poins for 10 grand. 

They pay over $2000 in MF for another 200K points (where any couple can buy those points for $2500 over those 2 years without owning a timeshare at all.)


----------



## DanCali

iconnections said:


> My worry is how are they combining the two systems together?  A new system and an old system, if people do not want to convert, it has to give problems eventually.  It's not a problem we have to deal with because we bought a fixed week/unit but I would be very worried if I had a floating week/unit in a popular resort where I would like to return to often with two different systems.



The only solution to that issue that I can see is having two separate reservation systems. One for the VOIs in the points system (if there is one) and one for the VOIs not in the points system. Anything less is a class action waiting to happen and likely even violates state laws, at least in some places that already thoght of these types of situations. 

For example - Hawaii statute rules(http://hawaii.gov/dcca/pvl/programs/timeshare/statute_rules - click on 514E and scroll to 514E-8.6) 

Note the following:

An operator shall not offer or dispose of a timeshare unit or a timeshare interest unless the one-to-one use night requirement is currently satisfied and will continue to be satisfied for the duration of the timeshare plan. 

If the timeshare plan has more than one class of timeshare interest, then the requirement must be satisfied within each class.

A use night counted to satisfy the requirement for one class may not also be counted to satisfy the requirement for a competing class.


If they don't separate the inventories, points owners could fill desirable locations while owners may not be able to obtain any week in their season even if they call before the season starts. For example - Platinum season at NCV runs from week 23 to 51 (with a Platinum Plus week 26). Right now, as long as Platinum week owners call before week 23, they should be able to get some week during the season they own. It may not be a desirable week, but they should get a week. If points system owners can exchange into all NCV weeks up to a year in advance (without separation of inventory), a Platinum owner not in the points system may not be able to book any week even if he calls before the season starts. I'm sure that would violate a few things written in CCRs...


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## taffy19

You are right that there have to be two complete separate inventories.  It was simple with the 13 months' reservation advantage because the inventory was split 50/50 but this is going to be a nightmare with the number of weeks and total points changing constantly but it can be done with a good computer software program, I guess.  This may be the reason why it is taking so long to get all the kinks out of the new system.

I am sure that they have smarter programmers than RCI and smart attorneys too.  They make sure that they will not get sued which is good for every one concerned as nobody is getting any better off than the attorneys who handle the class action lawsuits (RCI comes to mind   ) and that takes a long time too.


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## puckmanfl

good morning....

The concern is now the developer controls sales and inventory....

If MVCI puts unsold inventory and rental inventory ( from units returned for points etc.) into the points "pool" this program could look great for points owner.  For example, how many times have exchangers tried to get a ski week to no avail while being able to go on marriott.com and rent a unit...

The problem for MVCI is that much of their unsold inventory are gold, silver weeks in less than thrilling places.  The plat. ski weeks, aruba, HHI etc. have sold well.  With points they can sell access to these plat weeks that are also sold!!!

Initially in order to get good reviews MVCI will probably place unsold and rental inventory into the points pool (instead of depositing a bunch of Ko olina weeks in II getaways or sept FC weeks in the exchange pool. This will be done to create the illusion that internal exchanges can only be done thru the points side!!!  The problem becomes down the road when things start to change ever so slowly under the "generic" clause of "rules can change without notice at the decision of the developer".


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## PerryM

*Woof woof....*



puckmanfl said:


> good morning....
> 
> The concern is now the developer controls sales and inventory....
> 
> If MVCI puts unsold inventory and rental inventory ( from units returned for points etc.) into the points "pool" this program could look great for points owner.  For example, how many times have exchangers tried to get a ski week to no avail while being able to go on marriott.com and rent a unit...
> 
> The problem for MVCI is that much of their unsold inventory are gold, silver weeks in less than thrilling places.  The plat. ski weeks, aruba, HHI etc. have sold well.  With points they can sell access to these plat weeks that are also sold!!!
> 
> Initially in order to get good reviews MVCI will probably place unsold and rental inventory into the points pool (instead of depositing a bunch of Ko olina weeks in II getaways or sept FC weeks in the exchange pool. This will be done to create the illusion that internal exchanges can only be done thru the points side!!!  The problem becomes down the road when things start to change ever so slowly under the "generic" clause of "rules can change without notice at the decision of the developer".



These are great points...

What will doom the new Internal Exchange System to a life of mediocrity will be the Bronze, Silver, and Gold weeks dumped into the system and exchanged for Platinum weeks.  The system will be awash with doggie weeks.  Bow Wow!

Marriott won't care since they don't really care about how well the new scheme works as an exchange system - only that it helps sell doggy weeks.

It's just like car insurance (used to be health insurance) the 20% of the folks who always account for 80% of the usage are kept out - they can go somewhere else and drain that system.

Redweek has the right idea - they decide if your week is in demand and then offer you Points to deposit it into their exchange system.  The doggy weeks never enter their system to clog it up with weeks nobody wants.

So look for a very expensive replacement to II that is no better and probably worse - at least as an exchange system for owners.

The dogs will rule the day...


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## puckmanfl

Hi...

I am not completely negative on all of this.  I am just not sure as how to proceed when the "moment of truth" arrives.    This system could be great or truly miserable.  I am trying to encourage discussion so I can figure out the "next step".  Sounds like the general consensus from Tuggers is to evaluate the roll out and proceed with caution.  I believe that most plat. week owners mostly occupy and only  and occasionally exchange and will not be rushing in to this to exchange for points!!!  I think that I will be sitting tight as well and occupying my home units if exchanging for value becomes difficult...


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## PerryM

*MRE - Meals Ready to Eat?*



puckmanfl said:


> Hi...
> 
> I am not completely negative on all of this.  I am just not sure as how to proceed when the "moment of truth" arrives.    This system could be great or truly miserable.  I am trying to encourage discussion so I can figure out the "next step".  Sounds like the general consensus from Tuggers is to evaluate the roll out and proceed with caution.  I believe that most plat. week owners mostly occupy and only  and occasionally exchange and will not be rushing in to this to exchange for points!!!  I think that I will be sitting tight as well and occupying my home units if exchanging for value becomes difficult...



Personally I believe Marriott will come out with "The hammer" - offers that expire in hours/days that will attract a lot of owners.  There will be little time to do any "head scratching" - just panic to get the "pre-construction" goodies that Marriott will entice owners with.

By the time we get around to do a real analysis the goodies will be fond memories.

Will Marriott bring out a true internal exchange system to make Marriott ownership even more rewarding - I don't think that's what Marriott cares about.

It is a sales tool for the salesreps and will be marketed as the hottest thing since the timeshare.

Will I pay to enter our 1 Gold Summit Watch week?  I can't say until about 5 minutes after Marriott releases the details.  My guess is no - it won't improve our Marriott ownership; but that's just a guess at this point.

P.S.
If you simply look at what's happening in the USA and the rest of the world you might come to the conclusion I've come to - I'm not spending a single penny on anything but food and fuel in 2010 and probably 2011.  Spending money on more timeshares, in any way but MFs, is very very dangerous in my way of looking at things right now.  I would have to violate this reasoning to buy into the new exchange system (assuming it will cost more than $100 for the week)

In this climate Marriott may decide to chuck their old way of selling timeshares and come up with a new way?  Then expect owners to cavalierly shell out money for an unproven exchange system?  I wish you luck Marriott.


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## puckmanfl

Perry...

Please forgive this query but I can't possibly come up with any GOOD reason for the owner of a ONE gold week to convert to points.  I am assuming your unit is a 2 bedroom lock off.  With your skills and know how you can probably convert this to TWO plat weeks (especially if you are flexible and can use FLEXCHANGE).  Since you only have 1 unit, you cannot combine points to TRADE UP.  

THe only possible benefit is that you could possibly get a few "short stays" with points!!!

Please let me know if I am missing anything!!!


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## PerryM

puckmanfl said:


> Perry...
> 
> Please forgive this query but I can't possibly come up with any GOOD reason for the owner of a ONE gold week to convert to points.  I am assuming your unit is a 2 bedroom lock off.  With your skills and know how you can probably convert this to TWO plat weeks (especially if you are flexible and can use FLEXCHANGE).  Since you only have 1 unit, you cannot combine points to TRADE UP.
> 
> THe only possible benefit is that you could possibly get a few "short stays" with points!!!
> 
> Please let me know if I am missing anything!!!



One thing I've learned about the words NEVER or ALWAYS is that they are absolute.  There are a whole host of words that take on a lifetime meaning.

Let's say that Marriott's pre-construction goodies includes the ability to pass on the exchange membership when I sell my unit.  I'm assuming Marriott doesn't want that to be the norm but might offer it to get the ball rolling.

That's why you can count on me making time the day of release to understand what Marriott is offering and what it means to owners.  (And, of course, how to exploit it)


----------



## GregT

puckmanfl said:


> Perry...
> 
> Please forgive this query but I can't possibly come up with any GOOD reason for the owner of a ONE gold week to convert to points.  I am assuming your unit is a 2 bedroom lock off.  With your skills and know how you can probably convert this to TWO plat weeks (especially if you are flexible and can use FLEXCHANGE).  Since you only have 1 unit, you cannot combine points to TRADE UP.



Puckman,

I agree with you -- I would think a Gold Week owner is better off staying with II -- there is the possibility that if there are reduced Marriott owner/developer deposits into II (because of a competing exchange mechanism), then there will be residual greater trading power for those Marriott deposits (Platinum/Gold/Silver) that are made into II.   They may no longer be traded for other Marriotts because of reduced availability, but they may be higher in the II food chain to get Westins and others if they aren't competing with as many other Marriott deposits.

Perry taught me this phenomenon with Worldmark -- when Worldmark left II as their preferred exchange network to go to RCI, that meant that when II does get a Worldmark deposit, its surprisingly powerful because of the scarcity.  Even my WM blue studio in Oklahoma in January (what a dog) traded for a 2BR into the Marriott Shadow Ridge in May.

I do believe it will make it tougher for that Marriott Gold Week owner to trade up within the Marriott system itself, and I continue to believe Marriott never intended to make it so easy to trade up (without benefitting financially from the trade up).  And a points system will make their revenue stream more stable, removing the volatility and dependence on new unit sales.

Good luck to all,

Greg


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## DanCali

PerryM said:


> Personally I believe Marriott will come out with "The hammer" - offers that expire in hours/days that will attract a lot of owners.  There will be little time to do any "head scratching" - just panic to get the "pre-construction" goodies that Marriott will entice owners with.



I agree. Unfortunately, the timeshare industry is based on impulse buying. How many people would still buy from the developer if they had 60 days to truly learn about the market and realize they lose 50%+ of their equity the moment they buy? Probably a select few who truly value points or the Elite status some other systems give for multiple week retail owners. 

Many who bought retail (or who didn't do enough research in general) would do things otherwise if given a chance, whether it's buy resale, but at a different resort, but from a different developer, not buy at all etc... I myself rescinded a retail purchase after discovering TUG and even after I did some research I made a couple of purchases I didn't like and subsequently unloaded.

Any form of pressure to make a decision fast should raise red flags. I would happily give up all the incentives just to have the extra time to make an informed decision. If it's truly beneficial to join, I'll join without any incentives and if it's not then I don't want to regret it... Nobody should make a decision that will affect their ownership for years to come based on a few free hotel nights.


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## puckmanfl

good morning

perhaps II will try to encourage deposits of MVCI weeks with more generous granting of "ac's" for even the most mundane MVCI units...  Maybe even Perry's Gold Summit Watch!!!!!


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## PerryM

*In soccer a 0 to 0 game is fantastic!*

My son played youth soccer and I've been to hundreds of soccer games and some of the best were 0 to 0.  Soccer is a game about making the least amount of mistakes.

Marriott makes mistakes all the time - some are whoppers; take Maui Ocean Club's week 1 - 51 being all Platinum or Summit Watch not making Week 7 a Platinum Plus Holiday week or collapsing Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday reservations into one day.  This list goes on and on.

Each of those mistakes is an opportunity for the savvy timeshare owner.

If Marriott chucks week based timeshares for Point based timeshares and adds an internal exchange system on top of that you can bet there are going to be mistakes Marriott makes.

Exploiting those mistakes is what I live for.....


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## timeos2

GregT said:


> Perry taught me this phenomenon with Worldmark -- when Worldmark left II as their preferred exchange network to go to RCI, that meant that when II does get a Worldmark deposit, its surprisingly powerful because of the scarcity.  Even my WM blue studio in Oklahoma in January (what a dog) traded for a 2BR into the Marriott Shadow Ridge in May.
> Greg



There is an absolute truth to this idea based on history. Whereas a Wastegate deposit to II might as well be thrown into the gutter - it will get you virtually nothing except maybe another low value Wastegate throwaway, they are awash in unwanted Wastegate time. Since they parted ways (and took up trashing the formerly touted RCI option) the same deposit with RCI trades very well as they get few and have demand for everything they get.  We figured that out way back in 1997 after a few terrible runs with II & Wastegate. 

It is similar for DRI units after they changed "preferred" affiliation to II as well as Marriott for those resorts that are dual affiliated in that group. So an increase in value if the flow in is reduced by Marriott changing the process is a very real possibility in my view. 

 "Wait until we set up the dastardly Marriott points based system Muttley. We'll rake in the dough selling Christmas in September!" 
[IMGL]http://www.freewebs.com/shamikdas/Pictures/Dick-Dastardly-and-Muttley.jpg[/IMGL]


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## BocaBum99

Here is the bottom line of the alleged new Marriott Point system.

1) It's about time that Marriott move in this direction.  Point systems are a superior model for Timesharing.  Unfortunately, it will be a very painful change from fixed weeks to points for most owners.  For sharp owners, it will be a renaissance of opportunity for buying, selling, renting and travelling to Marriott resorts.

2) The big losers in this program will be the same population as it always is.  Those who buy directly from the developer.  These people fund the entire industry and all its players.  I thank you all developer purchasers.

3) Marriott is doing this to increase sales opportunities and competitiveness.  Their program will be defined in such a way that owners equity will depreciate slowly, but surely over time.  Costs will increase higher than inflation because fees will be initially set below actual costs to make it appear that it's a very good deal.  Over time, the real costs will manifest themselves in high maintenance fees.

4) As long as you employ the correct buy, hold and sell strategy, TUG members will be fine over time.  I can't wait for Marriott to launch this new program.  I am 100% certain that this new program will have rules and those rules will have loopholes which TUG members will exploit relentlessly.


----------



## puckmanfl

Boca... 

please riddle me this!!!

How does a conversion to points make "losers" out of developer purchasers??? I agree with the hypothesis that developer purchasers (including myself) have paid too much for their weeks.  But the cost excess applies to BOTH weeks AND points ownership.  My stupidity/ignorance in buying developer doesn't get worse in a point system!! Or does it??? Please explain!!!


----------



## BocaBum99

puckmanfl said:


> Boca...
> 
> please riddle me this!!!
> 
> How does a conversion to points make "losers" out of developer purchasers??? I agree with the hypothesis that developer purchasers (including myself) have paid too much for their weeks.  But the cost excess applies to BOTH weeks AND points ownership.  My stupidity/ignorance in buying developer doesn't get worse in a point system!! Or does it??? Please explain!!!



Developer purchasers of all kinds funds the entire industry.  Weeks or Points, it doesn't matter.

Resort Developers ALWAYS take actions that depreciate owner equity.  It's a nature of their sales and marketing model.  As long as they continue it, they will make rules that make your ownership worth less over time.

The way to capitalize on it is to project the expected decrease over time, purchase below market and sell it before the timeshare is worth less than you bought it for.  Then, get the next product in the life cycle of forced obsolescence.  The good news is that there is such a disorganized resale market that it is easy to purchase below market.


----------



## winger

BocaBum99 said:


> Here is the bottom line of the alleged new Marriott Point system.
> 
> 1) It's about time that Marriott move in this direction.  Point systems are a superior model for Timesharing.  .....



Yes, point-based systems ROCK!  We have been spoiled the past three years enjoying Diamond Resorts' point-based system.  At the time we joined that points system, we were about to sell/donate our weekly ownership since we already had our Marriott weekly interval/ownership.


----------



## puckmanfl

The above points are very true, but this thread is not debating developer purchase vs. resale.  It is discussing a point system and its effects on value.  If a points system decreases value it will do it for BOTH developer and resale weeks.  The developer weeks devaluation just starts from a higher set point!!!

In other words, as a developer purchaser (shame on me) the points conversion should not BENEFIT or HURT me anymore than a resale owner!!!


----------



## GregT

puckmanfl said:


> In other words, as a developer purchaser (shame on me) the points conversion should not BENEFIT or HURT me anymore than a resale owner!!!



Puckman,

I actually think you're in the best spot in approaching a points conversion.  As a direct purchaser, you should be partially insulated from any "punitive" incremental cost that a resale purchaser might bear to join the points system -- and you always have your deed if you decide to stay with what you have.  And as a direct purchaser, I suspect you'll have longer to choose to join the points system.

I do believe that future direct developer purchasers OF POINTS are the ones that are really going to be subsidizing the system (per Boca's reference above) -- will be interesting to watch.

Good luck to all, and I look forward to all of us ripping apart the new system to find the loopholes.


----------



## billymach4

I am still sitting on the fence regarding the actual launch of this so called points rumor. 

Notice I am still calling it a rumor. 

BUT.... Here is the kicker. If it does come to fruition next month or in the next quarter... I predict Marriott will reinstate ROFR to firm up the prices on the resale market. 

Sorry but I just had to add that comment, if it has not already been mentioned.


----------



## PerryM

*Good V Bad - and the winner is.....*



puckmanfl said:


> The above points are very true, but this thread is not debating developer purchase vs. resale.  It is discussing a point system and its effects on value.  If a points system decreases value it will do it for BOTH developer and resale weeks.  The developer weeks devaluation just starts from a higher set point!!!
> 
> In other words, as a developer purchaser (shame on me) the points conversion should not BENEFIT or HURT me anymore than a resale owner!!!



The more the developer defames resales the more resale prices fall - what else would you expect?

Disney is an example of the developer praising owners and not going out of their way to bash resales - the resale prices don't plummet from Disney's antics.

Marriott has bashed resales for years and years and resale prices have fallen - is the loss all Marriott's fault - no but they don't help our resale prices with bashing our ownership.

The main problem with timeshares is that the developer is selling a used product and pretending that no one has ever slept in the beds.

Now if you are in the business of recycling your owners' units then you want resale prices to be as low as possible.  Anything that causes Marriott resale prices to plummet is good for Marriott.

So I believe Marriott will not shed any tears as the more they try to make their sales different than ours causes our resale prices to fall - what's bad for resales is good for Marriott.


----------



## BocaBum99

puckmanfl said:


> In other words, as a developer purchaser (shame on me) the points conversion should not BENEFIT or HURT me anymore than a resale owner!!!



It depends on the program details.  We will learn it sure enough.  There are some circumstances when it makes sense to purchase from the developer.   Most times, though, it doesn't make economic sense.  The problem with a developer purchase is not the benefits, it's the loss you take when you sell it.


----------



## m61376

PerryM said:


> The more the developer defames resales the more resale prices fall - what else would you expect?
> 
> Disney is an example of the developer praising owners and not going out of their way to bash resales - the resale prices don't plummet from Disney's antics.
> 
> Marriott has bashed resales for years and years and resale prices have fallen - is the loss all Marriott's fault - no but they don't help our resale prices with bashing our ownership.
> 
> The main problem with timeshares is that the developer is selling a used product and pretending that no one has ever slept in the beds.
> 
> Now if you are in the business of recycling your owners' units then you want resale prices to be as low as possible.  Anything that causes Marriott resale prices to plummet is good for Marriott.
> 
> So I believe Marriott will not shed any tears as the more they try to make their sales different than ours causes our resale prices to fall - what's bad for resales is good for Marriott.



I am not so sure that's true today. People are more knowledgeable and more and more people travel with Internet access. IF Marriott's actions decimate the resale market, I am not so sure that's to Marriott's benefit. I think it is likely it will hurt them in the long run.


----------



## BocaBum99

m61376 said:


> I am not so sure that's true today. People are more knowledgeable and more and more people travel with Internet access. IF Marriott's actions decimate the resale market, I am not so sure that's to Marriott's benefit. I think it is likely it will hurt them in the long run.



I disagree.  Marriott has learned from other resort developers that the resale market doesn't yet have that much impact on retail sales.


----------



## m61376

BocaBum99 said:


> I disagree.  Marriott has learned from other resort developers that the resale market doesn't yet have that much impact on retail sales.



I understand that. Of course, no one knows what will happen in the long run. From my limited vantage point I think consumers are getting increasingly savvy, so I am not so sure that Perry's statement that "what's bad for resales is good for Marriott" will be true down the road. That's why I think it is a business decision that warrants concern.

I just think that Marriott could learn a lot from Disney and a few others- offering a better product, which sustains both retail and resale value. If there is only a small pricepoint difference, buyers naturally will flock to the developer and everyone wins (except those of us who like to get good deals...).


----------



## PerryM

*Christmas morning?*



m61376 said:


> I understand that. Of course, no one knows what will happen in the long run. From my limited vantage point I think consumers are getting increasingly savvy, so I am not so sure that Perry's statement that "what's bad for resales is good for Marriott" will be true down the road. That's why I think it is a business decision that warrants concern.
> 
> I just think that Marriott could learn a lot from Disney and a few others- offering a better product, which sustains both retail and resale value. If there is only a small pricepoint difference, buyers naturally will flock to the developer and everyone wins (except those of us who like to get good deals...).



What is a Week 52, New Year's week, worth at MountainSide - on the resale market?

Answer: whatever the dumbest/panicky Marriott seller and smartest buyer say it's worth.

It is to Marriott's advantage to crush resales - for 4 years that's what ALL the sales reps we have toured with keep telling my wife and I - "Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry".

I have no doubt that Marriott woke up to the fact that 2005 - 2007 were apex years for timeshares and want to recycle cheap Marriott units for peanuts.  So I'm guessing that with the new exchange system goes a corporate edict to depress the resale market as much as possible.

Don't know how I'd prove that and don't know if it really matters.

We'll see if and when Marriott throws out the old and tries something brand new while real estate circles the toilet.

But I'm getting sucked into this guessing game once again - I'm out of here until June, just a few weeks away.  Bye; can't wait - like waiting for Christmas morning and Santa.


----------



## taffy19

BocaBum99 said:


> I disagree. Marriott has learned from other resort developers that the resale market doesn't yet have that much impact on retail sales.


I guess that is true for a little longer but the younger generation is computer savvy and knows how to buy stuff on the Internet the cheapest way possible so it has to change. JMHO. They have Internet connection in the palm of their hand so are going to search what they just purchased while standing in line somewhere.  If resale prices pop up and are for next to nothing, they are going to rescind. How can developers stop this trend?

This is one nice thing that Disney has for their program. It is a win win situation for Disney as well as for the people who own there for quite a few years. Resale prices pop up but not at much lower prices than what the developer is charging so why bother to rescind and going through all the hassle? They are very aware that there is an end date in the contract and that it isn't real estate what so many people assume when they are buying a deeded timeshare.

The developer knows that he will get the points back eventually so can sell at top prices again if he upgrades or rebuilds the resort because of the super locations. They missed out on Newport Beach but they have a great location in Oahu now as that is becoming a well planned resort area too.


----------



## GregT

PerryM said:


> So I'm guessing that with the new exchange system goes a corporate edict to depress the resale market as much as possible.



Perry,

I don't think so (and come on....you can't really stay away for 3 more weeks -- it's too tempting.).

Even if Marriott intended this I don't believe that will be the impact.  I think the value of non-prime weeks is already crushed and that the prime weeks that are deeded will retain their value.   I can even get into crazy speculation and say Marriott may actually exercise ROFR prime weeks at properties where they have little inventory for their points pool (like at MOC).

It will be interesting to see!

All the best,

Greg


----------



## taffy19

Greg, I agree with you.  If you want to own at this resort for use mainly, I would be tempted to buy a resale there before the change as they may start exercising the ROFR again pretty soon and the same for all the prime locations in the high season.

I am positive that the people, who do this, will get an attractive offer to convert from the Marriott.  They have to or they won't get the weeks but is there still enough time to get it done?


----------



## GregT

iconnections said:


> Greg, I agree with you.  If you want to own at this resort for use mainly, I would be tempted to buy a resale there before the change as they may start exercising the ROFR again pretty soon and the same for all the prime locations in the high season.
> 
> I am positive that the people, who do this, will get an attractive offer to convert from the Marriott.  They have to or they won't get the weeks but is there still enough time to get it done?



It is running a bit short of time to get it done -- when I bought earlier this year, I think it took me 3 weeks to get thru ROFR from when the escrow company sent in the paperwork -- and there were a number of weeks to negotiate the purchase and get the paperwork done in front of that.  

Practically speaking though, I think it's the 1BR MOC at $5K that MIGHT get ROFR'd, versus the 2BR Ko Olina OV at $15K, since they have loads of Ko Olina inventory already.  And someone who really wants the MOC deed may pay $8K to minimize the ROFR risk, so.... deeds might have more value?    

Who knows.....fun to speculate!


----------



## Dean

Perry, I find your posts to be far too gloom and doom and frankly, unrealistic, on this matter.  To a degree all of our investments in Marriott (or any timeshare) comes down to the integrity of the company and people in question.  I don't know what will happen, if anything, but a reasonable conversion to a points system is certainly possible and can easily be done as a win-win for a large segment of the membership.  That's true in terms of both cost and usage models.  I doubt a quick but cheap option that's limited in numbers is reasonable as the more people they get to convert early, the better off any new system will be, however, Marriott will also want to make at least some money on any such conversion as well.  We'll all see what will happen but I would predict there will be a few that hate any new system (if it happens) and a lot that will like it.  Change is hard even when done well.



puckmanfl said:


> The above points are very true, but this thread is not debating developer purchase vs. resale.  It is discussing a point system and its effects on value.  If a points system decreases value it will do it for BOTH developer and resale weeks.  The developer weeks devaluation just starts from a higher set point!!!
> 
> In other words, as a developer purchaser (shame on me) the points conversion should not BENEFIT or HURT me anymore than a resale owner!!!


The subject of the thread was a rumored change in the system that might devalue current members ownership whether resale or retail.  There are many nuances to this issue including the retail vs resale issue.  That any change will equally affect both groups equally is not necessarily true and many on this thread believe it will not affect them equally.  I don't see any conspiracy that Marriott will purposefully shaft resale members but even if done truly fairly in our eyes, there will be winners and losers and it's possible, actually likely, that this will fall differently for retail vs resale.


----------



## m61376

I think the far bigger issue than how a possible new system might differentiate between retail and resale purchasers is how it will affect all who opt to join- specifically:
-will it be an overlay system or a trust based system? Will deeds be retained or signed over? Will there be any home resort preference?
-How will MF's be calculated- per resort or an average of all resorts and assigned on a per point basis? If on a per point basis, Plat. week owners may be in for a real shock wrt escalating MF's.
-What will the different point allotments be? Will 2 BR Plat. owners in Orlando, for example, need 2 weeks to trade into a single week in Hawaii or for a winter Caribbean week, etc.?
-What are the point allotments based on? Do they correspond to some objective factor (like the fair market rental rate) or are they arbitrarily set by Marriott- which means that, in all likelihood, point values of future resorts will be artificially inflated to enhance sales.
-For resorts with all too lengthy Plat. season, will the point value assigned reflect an average value across the season (may not be so good for owners at NCV, for ex.)?
-What will be the costs, both initial and per transaction?

As they say, the devil is in the details. While the notion of a point system is intriguing and may make for more equitable trades, if Marriott can just keep on upping the ante, so to speak, so that any new resort requires more and more points regardless of the location/quality (if there is no objective quantification of value) and if MF's for Plat. weeks just spiral out of control, the possibly lesser flexibility of a weeks system may be a lot more appealing.


----------



## Asia2000

*Possible New Marriott Point Program versus MVC Asia-Pacific*

I can not speak for the possible new points program for Marriott USA.  However, I can tell you how the Marriott Asia-Pacific Vacation Club program works.  

Before I mention that, let me say that it seems Thailand is a testing ground for Marriott.  The Courtyard Bangkok is the example for all new Courtyard hotels.  Marriott is expanding here in Thailand with several new properties in the pipeline.  Also, it seems some of the updated MVCI resorts have copied Marriott's Mai Khao Beach as far as styling is concerned.  My guess is that the new points program will be similar to the Asia-Pacific program in many ways.  This OPINIONATED (Please do not hold me to this) summary below is just an overlay with that thought in mind (USA program will be similar to the Asia program).

The Marriott VC Asia-Pacific program:
In a nutshell, platinum 2-bedroom weeks cost about 32,000 points at almost all of the resorts - about 7 of them.  Except for Hawaii where they range between 48,000 and 55,000 points.  I highly doubt they will base the point values off of maintenance fees, rather, base the point values on the demand of that property during the platinum time frame.  They have flexchanges (59 days or less) that cost 10,000 points for any available sized unit.  Points cost $1.25 through Marriott and $1.13 if you pay everything off in 30 days.  Promos include double points for the first year, bonus weeks for the first year and/or free interval memberships.  Points can stay in your account for up to 2 years and afterwards have to be converted to Marriott Rewards points.  You can borrow point from the next year, as long as your MFs are paid up.

The big selling point to Asians is the flexibility of the program.  Many Asian people like to go several places rather than lounge out at one resort all week.  This is where things get interesting because you can stay one night or seven nights.  A typical 32,000 point property (for the week) costs 3,700 points on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday (14,800 total), 6,400 points on Friday and Saturday (12,800) and 5,100 on Sunday.  I'm not sure how much of a benefit this would be to the person who likes seven straight days.  Also, just FYI, you can use the Club points to stay in various Marriott hotels across Asia (2,500 to 4,000 points per night), staying in just standard hotel rooms.

Phuket deed owners were offered to pay $5,000 to switch over to points.  At that time the points sold for $0.75.  However, Phuket deed owners are not lifetime owners to my knowledge.  Rather it is a leased timeshare that ends in 2080 (I am not 100% on this and therefore should not have stated it, but oh well).  The Asia-Pacific points program is a program that expires after about 46 years of purchase.  

Once again, I'm not sure how the Asia-Pacific program will translate into the USA program.  But, this writing is based on the idea that similarities will exist.  

The big push in the Asia-Pacific program was how you would be able to convert your club points into Marriott reward points.  To the common "Joe", Marriott Rewards is a big deal because many of us in the business world have collected many of those Reward points (with company funds) and have redeemed them many times for quality stays.  The common "Joe", like me, when presented the MVC-Asia points program was very confused about the value of a club point, but, hey, I knew really well what a Reward point was.  "With 32,000 club points you can have 160,000 reward points".  That registered with me and probably will for other first time presentation goers.  

We all know (at least I do now) that this is not a good deal.  Doing the math, MVC club points are worth far more than Marriott reward points.  Conversion is 5:1 in the program (5 reward points for every one club point) until 2020 and then 3:1 after.  Starting last year, new program members received the 3:1 ratio.  In any case, it is not a good deal at all unless you just have to stay in the city or near something specific.  But you can forget the 2 bedrooms and the kitchen unless you want a Residence Inn.

Asia-Pacific programs have hit the resale market.  Most programs sell for between $0.83 a point and $1.00 a point.  It seems a majority of resales come from Singapore and Hong Kong.  This is a discount versus todays price of $1.13 or $1.25, but is not nearly the deal that you would get on a deeded week timeshare at any other MVCI resort.  But, if you stop selling weeks and only sell points, it may keep resale values high (for points) in the initial years, just because there are not many programs for sale.  I have no idea what this would do for deeded weeks, but logic says the value of a deeded week would either go up, or the resale of points would come down to match the value of a deeded week.  My guess is that it will land somewhere in the middle.  Raising the value of a deeded week from where it is right now.

Certainly a new point program would have to have "forever" terms, just like a deeded week.  If it does not, than deeded weeks will certainly go up in value.  I'm told by the Asia-Pacific folks that the Club point values to stay 7 nights at a resort (ex. 32,000), will NEVER change.  Rather, the cost to buy points will just increase over time.  So, based on where your timeshare is and the point value assigned to your resort, will make a big difference.  My guess is that most resorts will land in the 32,000 range for a 2-bedroom, platinum week if the USA system is similar to the Asia-Pacific program.  Hawaii, 50,000 because it's Hawaii.

Club point users go direct through Marriott, not Interval, so point users may have a booking edge over week owners if those week owners were trying to trade their home resort for a different resort.  However, I think it would take a very long time for that to make a difference.  

MFs for the Asia-Pacific program are roughly $290 per 10,000 points.  So a 32,000 point 2 bedroom, platinum MF is about $928.  50,000 points annually, enough to stay in Hawaii one week is roughly $1450.  

The real downer for the points programs is in the area of lock-offs and trading your lock-off for 2 full weeks (sometimes 2 bedrooms for both weeks).  It seems that it would be much more difficult or maybe impossible with the points program.  If you owned 32,000 points, the only way to make this happen is with two flexchanges (59 days or less).  I do not see how Marriott would work around this.  Maybe they will not work around it on purpose.

Of course this is all my opinion.  Many of you know much more about timeshare point programs than I do.  Knowledge wise, I think I'm above average on the MVC Asia-Pacific points program, so I just wanted to give the viewpoint with that program in mind.  

My advice is, if you are a week owner, hold on to it and if you see that your week does not give you what you want and see that the points do give you what you want, then convert to points (only if the points last forever).  By that time, your week should be worth more and the level of points you are looking for will hopefully be about the same price.  All speculation of course.


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning

Thanks for the great summary and useful suggestions.  WOW, that was quite a bit to digest before lunch

Thanks again...


----------



## GregT

Asia, thank you very much for the information -- very interesting to read and interesting ramifications for the U.S. system, if in fact Asia-Pacific does become the model for a U.S. system.

All the best,

Greg


----------



## pefs65

Asia:
Thank you for the great well thoughtout post.
It gives us all alot to think and ponder on.


----------



## taffy19

What an interesting post with a lot of information to digest.  Thank you, Asia.  

What I found interesting to read is that some of our resorts are being styled after your resorts to the taste of the people in your area so the Marriott is expecting the growth of new customers to come from outside the USA and a point system makes perfect sense because people can stay a single night or as many nights they have points for since this is your preference of taking vacations.  It also makes the system much more flexible.  With the new system you can probably mix your stay with hotel rooms or the timeshare villas which is another plus when you are traveling from one area to another which people do when they have to fly so far as you may not come back.

All this is great but maintenance fees have to go up so much more to cover all the costs of the extra cleaning staff as well as wear and tear on the condos.  Time will tell if any of this is going to happen.

Never a dull moment in the timeshare world of the hotel chain timeshare resorts but where are the savings of owning a timeshare tomorrow?  Will there be any left?


----------



## GregT

Just got this from my sales rep (thanks by the way, in case you're reading this thread!  ) forwarded on a notice he received.




Date:       May 14, 2010

To:          All Sales & Marketing Associates

From:      Brian Miller, Senior Vice President, Sales, Marketing and Service Operations

Re:           Marriott Vacation Club 25th Anniversary Celebration Conclusion



Since last April, we have been celebrating the 25th anniversary of Marriott Vacation Club.   As the first major hospitality brand to enter the Vacation Ownership Industry, we all believed this milestone was worthy of celebration, both with our associates and with our valued owners and customers.   

The success of our 25th anniversary has been remarkable as our owners and guests have taken advantage of our unprecedented On-Tour Purchase Incentives.  This has been one of the best buying opportunities of the decade, but unfortunately all good things come to an end.

While we have been celebrating our special milestone since April 7th, 2009, I want you to be aware that our current offering of promotional pricing incentives will expire as of close of business, June 16, 2010.  Existing On-Tour Incentives may not be extended and WILL NOT be continued after the above date.  There will be no exceptions.  

Have a terrific month!  Thank you for your contributions to our great company’s success as we close out the celebration of this special milestone.


----------



## RandR

GregT said:


> Just got this from my sales rep (thanks ***, in case you're reading this thread!  ) forwarded on a notice he received.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Date:       May 14, 2010
> 
> To:          All Sales & Marketing Associates
> 
> From:      Brian Miller, Senior Vice President, Sales, Marketing and Service Operations
> 
> Re:           Marriott Vacation Club 25th Anniversary Celebration Conclusion
> 
> 
> 
> Since last April, we have been celebrating the 25th anniversary of Marriott Vacation Club.   As the first major hospitality brand to enter the Vacation Ownership Industry, we all believed this milestone was worthy of celebration, both with our associates and with our valued owners and customers.
> 
> The success of our 25th anniversary has been remarkable as our owners and guests have taken advantage of our unprecedented On-Tour Purchase Incentives.  This has been one of the best buying opportunities of the decade, but unfortunately all good things come to an end.
> 
> While we have been celebrating our special milestone since April 7th, 2009, I want you to be aware that our current offering of promotional pricing incentives will expire as of close of business, June 16, 2010.  Existing On-Tour Incentives may not be extended and WILL NOT be continued after the above date.  There will be no exceptions.
> 
> Have a terrific month!  Thank you for your contributions to our great company’s success as we close out the celebration of this special milestone.



Seems to match very nicely with the June 17 date we have been hearing regarding trainig.


----------



## Dean

Asia2000 said:


> I can not speak for the possible new points program for Marriott USA.  However, I can tell you how the Marriott Asia-Pacific Vacation Club program works.
> 
> Before I mention that, let me say that it seems Thailand is a testing ground for Marriott.  The Courtyard Bangkok is the example for all new Courtyard hotels.  Marriott is expanding here in Thailand with several new properties in the pipeline.  Also, it seems some of the updated MVCI resorts have copied Marriott's Mai Khao Beach as far as styling is concerned.  My guess is that the new points program will be similar to the Asia-Pacific program in many ways.  This OPINIONATED (Please do not hold me to this) summary below is just an overlay with that thought in mind (USA program will be similar to the Asia program).
> 
> The Marriott VC Asia-Pacific program:
> In a nutshell, platinum 2-bedroom weeks cost about 32,000 points at almost all of the resorts - about 7 of them.  Except for Hawaii where they range between 48,000 and 55,000 points.  I highly doubt they will base the point values off of maintenance fees, rather, base the point values on the demand of that property during the platinum time frame.  They have flexchanges (59 days or less) that cost 10,000 points for any available sized unit.  Points cost $1.25 through Marriott and $1.13 if you pay everything off in 30 days.  Promos include double points for the first year, bonus weeks for the first year and/or free interval memberships.  Points can stay in your account for up to 2 years and afterwards have to be converted to Marriott Rewards points.  You can borrow point from the next year, as long as your MFs are paid up.
> 
> The big selling point to Asians is the flexibility of the program.  Many Asian people like to go several places rather than lounge out at one resort all week.  This is where things get interesting because you can stay one night or seven nights.  A typical 32,000 point property (for the week) costs 3,700 points on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday (14,800 total), 6,400 points on Friday and Saturday (12,800) and 5,100 on Sunday.  I'm not sure how much of a benefit this would be to the person who likes seven straight days.  Also, just FYI, you can use the Club points to stay in various Marriott hotels across Asia (2,500 to 4,000 points per night), staying in just standard hotel rooms.
> 
> Phuket deed owners were offered to pay $5,000 to switch over to points.  At that time the points sold for $0.75.  However, Phuket deed owners are not lifetime owners to my knowledge.  Rather it is a leased timeshare that ends in 2080 (I am not 100% on this and therefore should not have stated it, but oh well).  The Asia-Pacific points program is a program that expires after about 46 years of purchase.
> 
> Once again, I'm not sure how the Asia-Pacific program will translate into the USA program.  But, this writing is based on the idea that similarities will exist.
> 
> The big push in the Asia-Pacific program was how you would be able to convert your club points into Marriott reward points.  To the common "Joe", Marriott Rewards is a big deal because many of us in the business world have collected many of those Reward points (with company funds) and have redeemed them many times for quality stays.  The common "Joe", like me, when presented the MVC-Asia points program was very confused about the value of a club point, but, hey, I knew really well what a Reward point was.  "With 32,000 club points you can have 160,000 reward points".  That registered with me and probably will for other first time presentation goers.
> 
> We all know (at least I do now) that this is not a good deal.  Doing the math, MVC club points are worth far more than Marriott reward points.  Conversion is 5:1 in the program (5 reward points for every one club point) until 2020 and then 3:1 after.  Starting last year, new program members received the 3:1 ratio.  In any case, it is not a good deal at all unless you just have to stay in the city or near something specific.  But you can forget the 2 bedrooms and the kitchen unless you want a Residence Inn.
> 
> Asia-Pacific programs have hit the resale market.  Most programs sell for between $0.83 a point and $1.00 a point.  It seems a majority of resales come from Singapore and Hong Kong.  This is a discount versus todays price of $1.13 or $1.25, but is not nearly the deal that you would get on a deeded week timeshare at any other MVCI resort.  But, if you stop selling weeks and only sell points, it may keep resale values high (for points) in the initial years, just because there are not many programs for sale.  I have no idea what this would do for deeded weeks, but logic says the value of a deeded week would either go up, or the resale of points would come down to match the value of a deeded week.  My guess is that it will land somewhere in the middle.  Raising the value of a deeded week from where it is right now.
> 
> Certainly a new point program would have to have "forever" terms, just like a deeded week.  If it does not, than deeded weeks will certainly go up in value.  I'm told by the Asia-Pacific folks that the Club point values to stay 7 nights at a resort (ex. 32,000), will NEVER change.  Rather, the cost to buy points will just increase over time.  So, based on where your timeshare is and the point value assigned to your resort, will make a big difference.  My guess is that most resorts will land in the 32,000 range for a 2-bedroom, platinum week if the USA system is similar to the Asia-Pacific program.  Hawaii, 50,000 because it's Hawaii.
> 
> Club point users go direct through Marriott, not Interval, so point users may have a booking edge over week owners if those week owners were trying to trade their home resort for a different resort.  However, I think it would take a very long time for that to make a difference.
> 
> MFs for the Asia-Pacific program are roughly $290 per 10,000 points.  So a 32,000 point 2 bedroom, platinum MF is about $928.  50,000 points annually, enough to stay in Hawaii one week is roughly $1450.
> 
> The real downer for the points programs is in the area of lock-offs and trading your lock-off for 2 full weeks (sometimes 2 bedrooms for both weeks).  It seems that it would be much more difficult or maybe impossible with the points program.  If you owned 32,000 points, the only way to make this happen is with two flexchanges (59 days or less).  I do not see how Marriott would work around this.  Maybe they will not work around it on purpose.
> 
> Of course this is all my opinion.  Many of you know much more about timeshare point programs than I do.  Knowledge wise, I think I'm above average on the MVC Asia-Pacific points program, so I just wanted to give the viewpoint with that program in mind.
> 
> My advice is, if you are a week owner, hold on to it and if you see that your week does not give you what you want and see that the points do give you what you want, then convert to points (only if the points last forever).  By that time, your week should be worth more and the level of points you are looking for will hopefully be about the same price.  All speculation of course.


Thanks, great info and c/w the principles I would expect in a new Marriott points program.  A few things you did not address directly, or I missed  it if you did, is whether there is a home resort priority within the current system you are referring to and whether one can make shorter and longer reservations at the same timeframe.  Also, how far out can you reserve with that current system?  You mentioned 7 properties, what are the 7?  Are the points the same year around of do they vary with seasons?


----------



## Asia2000

Hello Dean,

I'm happy to be a resource.  So many of you TUGgers have been such a help to me in guiding me through the timeshare process and I greatly appreciate it.  I'm new to timeshares, but have been studying the Asia program off and on for about a year.  

As far as I know, there is no home resort.  You just stay directly at any of the six MVCI Asia-Pacific resorts.  I told you 7, but only six are open.  Macau, China is expected to be part of the seven.  The thread below is a better outline of everything.
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117348

Just a couple of extra notes on this information.  The Empire Place in Bangkok is in a great location and it is well appointed.  However, in the end you feel like you are staying in a nice apartment complex.  No restaurants, limited staff, etc.  In fact, most of the building are condominium units that have nothing to do with MVCI.  So you might be mingling amongst full time residents.  They only have around 50 timeshare units for MVCI at Bangkok and from what it seems, they have a lot of availability.  Of course, don't come now with all of the controversy.

You had asked about making shorter and longer reservations on the same time frame.  Yes, you can stay one day or seven days or eleven days.  Any amount of days you choose.  Each day has an assigned value.  Monday through Thursday is the most reasonable.

12 months is the furthest out that you can book.  Just like deeded weeks.

The points vary with seasons.  They follow the exact schedule that deeded weeks follow (Gold, Silver, Platinum).  In Asia, the gold windows are shorter.  Some resorts only have a few weeks of gold.  Hawaii and Vegas are considered all platinum or platinum-plus.  Using the 32,000 point example for a 2 bedroom platinum, 7 days, the gold season would run 20,700.  A one bedroom platinum 21,100 and a one bedroom gold is 13,300.

Again, I'm sure Marriott will adjust their system to fit the vacation style of the Westerner.  But I was told from the Asia office that the point system in Asia will in some way, shape and form be rolled out across the world.  Of course they used that to encourage a purchase.  "Get in now before the rest of the world does", kind of mentality.  I understand, they have to put dinner on the table.  They were wonderful to deal with.

As for Asia-Pacific resales, you lose the conversion to Rewards points option.  This is not a big deal as long as your annual Club point allotment within 2 years.  After 2 years, you lose them as a resale membership owner.  You also lose the "Express Breaks" options which was explained in the link above.

My take is that the program is a whole lot of smoke and mirrors.  It took me a quite a long time to figure it out and then compare it to USA deeded weeks (that was the new part for me).  I hope that helps.


----------



## Dean

Asia2000 said:


> Hello Dean,
> 
> I'm happy to be a resource.  So many of you TUGgers have been such a help to me in guiding me through the timeshare process and I greatly appreciate it.  I'm new to timeshares, but have been studying the Asia program off and on for about a year.
> 
> As far as I know, there is no home resort.  You just stay directly at any of the six MVCI Asia-Pacific resorts.  I told you 7, but only six are open.  Macau, China is expected to be part of the seven.  The thread below is a better outline of everything.
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117348
> 
> Just a couple of extra notes on this information.  The Empire Place in Bangkok is in a great location and it is well appointed.  However, in the end you feel like you are staying in a nice apartment complex.  No restaurants, limited staff, etc.  In fact, most of the building are condominium units that have nothing to do with MVCI.  So you might be mingling amongst full time residents.  They only have around 50 timeshare units for MVCI at Bangkok and from what it seems, they have a lot of availability.  Of course, don't come now with all of the controversy.
> 
> You had asked about making shorter and longer reservations on the same time frame.  Yes, you can stay one day or seven days or eleven days.  Any amount of days you choose.  Each day has an assigned value.  Monday through Thursday is the most reasonable.
> 
> 12 months is the furthest out that you can book.  Just like deeded weeks.
> 
> The points vary with seasons.  They follow the exact schedule that deeded weeks follow (Gold, Silver, Platinum).  In Asia, the gold windows are shorter.  Some resorts only have a few weeks of gold.  Hawaii and Vegas are considered all platinum or platinum-plus.  Using the 32,000 point example for a 2 bedroom platinum, 7 days, the gold season would run 20,700.  A one bedroom platinum 21,100 and a one bedroom gold is 13,300.
> 
> Again, I'm sure Marriott will adjust their system to fit the vacation style of the Westerner.  But I was told from the Asia office that the point system in Asia will in some way, shape and form be rolled out across the world.  Of course they used that to encourage a purchase.  "Get in now before the rest of the world does", kind of mentality.  I understand, they have to put dinner on the table.  They were wonderful to deal with.
> 
> As for Asia-Pacific resales, you lose the conversion to Rewards points option.  This is not a big deal as long as your annual Club point allotment within 2 years.  After 2 years, you lose them as a resale membership owner.  You also lose the "Express Breaks" options which was explained in the link above.
> 
> My take is that the program is a whole lot of smoke and mirrors.  It took me a quite a long time to figure it out and then compare it to USA deeded weeks (that was the new part for me).  I hope that helps.


Thanks, it's good to have a valid reference point.  Your info is much appreciated.


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## jin

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the buy in fee for the new points program will per for EACH resort you own, or ALL INCLUSIVE -- i.e. one fee for all  the weeks you own?


----------



## dioxide45

jin said:


> Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the buy in fee for the new points program will per for EACH resort you own, or ALL INCLUSIVE -- i.e. one fee for all  the weeks you own?



 No one knows. At least not anyone here.


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## puckmanfl

Asia...
Thanks for all of the great info...

Just a query regarding inventory...

Let's take Hawaii as an example since it has the highest (thus  most desirable) point total.  How easy is it to obtain availability or make a reservation.  Do you have to be on line at 12:01 AM 365 days before your date or is inventory easier to obtain???

Does the "lack of home resort" create a run on the good stuff and leave the weaker dates constantly available???

Where does the Hawaii inventory come from.  Is it just from other Asia owners that converted or purchased points?  Does MVCI put unsold or rental inventory in the system ?  If a "date" is unavailable to grab, can you go to marriott.com and rent???

Thanks

curious minds want to know!!!


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## m61376

Thanks for the info. 

My concern was that the US roll-out would mirror the program you outlined. When I look at the points given for a 2 BR Plat. Phuket week, for example, I find it a little mind boggling that it barely equates to a 1BR Ko'Olina week or not quite 2/3rd's of the points needed for a 2BR in Waiohai. To exchange outside of Marriott through II into a high demand time (TDI over 120) those points would only get you a studio; if you wanted a 2BR the TDI would have to be for a period with a 80-120 demand. There appears to be some remarkable disparities between Platinum valuations at different resorts; furthermore, that trend will likely be magnified as future properties are added.

I agree that the only thing that is appealing is the 10,000 point Flexchange type option, but other than that I only see a benefit today to the owners of the higher echelon Platinum weeks; however, I'd venture to guess that that benefit too will erode over time, as future resorts are likely allocated more points.

The differentiation between resale and direct purchaser's conversions makes sense. Disallowing conversions to Marriott Rewards points would be a natural continuation of the trade for points restriction that currently exists, and not allowing the purchase of points for last minute Express breaks would be a small but significant enhancement. To make that difference significant, a long term 5:1 conversion would certainly be more attractive and more accurately reflect values as reward points have been devalued from what they were worth when many people originally purchased their timeshares. The 3:1 ratio which is the current offering is roughly what Marriott is currently giving owners who bought direct, and wouldn't represent a program enhancement.

$5000 is a lot to pay for the flexibility being offered, especially when that flexibility will come with restrictions inherent in the number of points owned and the point conversions for most owners, even most Plat. week owners. Of course, if they market it as "being able to go where you want, for how long you want and in any size accommodations you want" I'm guessing a lot of people will be attracted by the hype and not analyze the program like we are here, and will be oblivious as to its limitations until it's too late- and then, the only thing they can do to get value out of what they now own is- surprise, surprise- buy more points so they have enough for that one week trip that they could have used II to exchange into. I'm guessing that a little added convenience of possibly being able to book a week (and I say possibly because it remains to be seen what kind of availability there will be; will certain Plat. week owners be willing to give up their home resort advantage?) is going to come at a significant cost.

II and the current program- and deeded weeks- are looking better and better to me at least. 

One more concern- what happens to individual resort independence and HOA's when MF's are spread across the board. And, what happens to MF's, since in reality different season owners will be paying different MF's? How high is high? And will the Grande Vista owner be happy absorbing the cost of renovations such as the recent issues at the Ocean Club (which is the by-product of MF's being spread across the board)?


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## mpizza

Thanks Asia for posting such an informative description.

Since Club point users go direct through Marriott, not Interval, are Asia points members restricted to Marriott resorts/hotels?

Maria


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## Dean

jin said:


> Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the buy in fee for the new points program will per for EACH resort you own, or ALL INCLUSIVE -- i.e. one fee for all  the weeks you own?


As noted, the specifics will be the issue.  Whatever happens it's likely to be somewhere in between.  Possibly one fee or a new minimum purchase but you'd still have to pay closing on each converted point.  And it will likely vary over time.  We'll see, I'll actually be in residence at Surfwatch the week of the rumored event.



puckmanfl said:


> Asia...
> Thanks for all of the great info...
> 
> Just a query regarding inventory...
> 
> Let's take Hawaii as an example since it has the highest (thus  most desirable) point total.  How easy is it to obtain availability or make a reservation.  Do you have to be on line at 12:01 AM 365 days before your date or is inventory easier to obtain???
> 
> Does the "lack of home resort" create a run on the good stuff and leave the weaker dates constantly available???
> 
> Where does the Hawaii inventory come from.  Is it just from other Asia owners that converted or purchased points?  Does MVCI put unsold or rental inventory in the system ?  If a "date" is unavailable to grab, can you go to marriott.com and rent???
> 
> Thanks Even
> 
> curious minds want to know!!!


I'm not Asia but a couple of points.  One is that ONLY the time at a given resort that's actually in the points side can be reserved with points and the other point that there is a guaranteed inequality of demand between resorts AND time of the year because there is currently.  A home resort priority keeps that status quo at a resort essentially platinum all year around like HI, LV, etc.  That is to say it continues a problem already in existence but exaggerates it at an even more seasonal resort like HH.  Some of those resorts named had part of their time sold as points and part as weeks so the time available to reserve for each would depend on how the time sold was divided up.

It's likely that any conversion options will make the most sense for Gold and possibly Silver owners and for those that own Platinum at lower demand resorts.  The lower demand times may not have enough value to justify the option even for one interested and the highest demand weeks would likely be giving up too much to do so other than they might not want to be one of the last standing if most other owners around them covert.


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## Dean

m61376 said:


> One more concern- what happens to individual resort independence and HOA's when MF's are spread across the board. And, what happens to MF's, since in reality different season owners will be paying different MF's? How high is high? And will the Grande Vista owner be happy absorbing the cost of renovations such as the recent issues at the Ocean Club (which is the by-product of MF's being spread across the board)?


It depends in part on whether it's system wide or resort specific.  However, lower season fees would go down and higher season fees would go up with about any option for a points system other than at resorts that had no lower season (like HI, LV).  IF the fees were system wide as an average, owners of resorts with lower fees would likewise see an increase and those with higher fees a decrease.  Special assessments would also likely be spread among all owners in the program.


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## Asia2000

Puckmanfl:  I'm not sure about the inventory and I honestly do not know the answers to your questions, but, I can speculate.  If you have 50,000 points to stay in Hawaii, then you would be treated like a Platinum week holder for that resort.  You would book 365 days out.  With more and more point holders, your timing would have to be very good. 

If enough point programs are sold, and inventory diminishes, then Marriott would simply add resorts by converting tier II properties to tier I properties.  Or buying out some properties and converting them over.  Or, building from scratch.  Certainly, Marriott could replace some of the appealing deeded week ownership properties with slick and desirable new resorts that are 100% points.  This could be the long term "lure" that brings current deed owners over to the points program.  It sounds painful, but it could be true.  Marriott could buy out a chain of 5 star resorts and make it happen quickly.  

If the great resorts are full, then they would need to stay somewhere, so I guess people would choose their 2nd choice and so on.  They could also go through Interval and possibly secure the reservation for $99?  I see your point.  It could get to be very frustrating.  Certainly there would have to be some very careful balancing on Marriott's part to make everyone happy.

Concerning the issue of not having a home resort.  Points would rule the day.  If you have points, then you can book the good dates.  If not, then you would have to settle for second best.  It is just really hard to speculate.


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## Asia2000

m61376,

I agree completely on the trading issues and the comparisons between resorts.  In the MVC-AP presentation, they gave the example of saving up your points for the big resorts.  You could borrow from your 2011 points to use in 2010 to make a Hawaii visit happen.  Yes, some of the values have great disparities.  With 50 MVCI resorts, it would be kind of like the College Football Bowls where people argue how their team or resort is ranked in the program.  TUG would just "blow up" with entry overload.

With regards to the MFs, I guess it would be spread across everyone in the points program evenly for their percentage.  But, the deed owners would probably brunt the greater percentage, especially in the early years of the point program.  If a resort is 90% deeded and 10% points, then the deeded folks would pay 90% of the renovation or fix via an assessment.  The points people would pay via a yearly increase.  MVC-AP says between 1-3% increase annually.

I agree completely on the Rewards options and how it pulls people in without knowing the true value.  With all of the different options of the program, it really makes you want it without knowing exactly what you are getting.  The average person would need to know MS Excel very well and do a lot of calculating.  Yes, I think deeded weeks are better if a system like this will come to fruition.  

In the end, Marriott just wants to fill their properties so they can build more and fill them again.  The points avenue is their next "button" to further this mission.  There is also the "loyalty" value of more timeshare owners sticking with the Marriott properties because of better trades, the Marriott Rewards option and the "club connections" hotel option.


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## Zac495

Thanks for the information, Asia. I sold My OC Aruba property after the last Marriott mess - almost bit to buy resale for pennies, but it just seems renting is going to be the best bet for our family. 

We will come straight to TUG looking for rentals each year, as you are the BEST - my TUG family! I trust you guys!


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## m61376

Asia2000 said:


> m61376,
> 
> 
> With regards to the MFs, I guess it would be spread across everyone in the points program evenly for their percentage.  But, the deed owners would probably brunt the greater percentage, especially in the early years of the point program.  If a resort is 90% deeded and 10% points, then the deeded folks would pay 90% of the renovation or fix via an assessment.  The points people would pay via a yearly increase. * MVC-AP says between 1-3% increase annually.*



Clearly, each segment of ownership (weeks versus points) would pay their owned percentage of the MF's. If points owners pay per point, in reality Platinum weeks deeded owners would pay lower MF's than point owners at high point value resorts and lower season deeded owners might be paying higher MF's than their point owner counterparts at high value resorts. That would be an interesting disparity.

It is interesting that they are advertising a 1-3% increase annually in MF's. Except for last year, when many MF's remained stable or decreased slightly, how many years had it been since there was only a 1-3% increase? I'd love them to put that in writing :rofl:


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## Asia2000

mpizza:

MVC-AP owners only go direct through Marriott for the six resorts in the program, and for the "club connections" hotel stays.  Everything else is done through II the same way as deeded week owners.  The 10,000 point flex change is probably the most appealing thing about the whole program.  30,000 points could get you three weeks a year if you are flexible. 

If the point program rolls out in the USA, it might be difficult to manage all 50 MVCI resorts under one point program.  Possibly they would sell the point program using three or four packages of resorts.  Instead of access to all 50, you would have access to 12.  This way they could more evenly spread out the demand in areas where a lot of Marriott resorts exist (Hilton Head and Orlando).  You could go outside of the 12 resorts through II for a fee, but would have priority booking at those 12 resorts through Marriott directly.  If Marriott found that package #3 was not selling well, then just run a discount on package #3.  

Or you could have rotating programs where every 5 years, you would roll into a new grouping of resorts.  You could pick which package of resorts you wanted to start with and how often you want to rotate.  The options are endless.  I'm sure Marriott will make it very appealing.


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## Asia2000

m61376,

1-3% was not in print.  Rather, just handwriting, so I'm not so sure it is a fact.  The MFs are set at 2.7% of your total points.  Have a great weekend.


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## puckmanfl

good morning!!!

Looking at this thru the "How it affects me glasses!!"

Currently I use 3 bedroom plat Grande Vista Weeks for mostly exchange purposes.  These units have snagged:

Plat ski weeks
Hawaii  in summer
HHI and Myrtle Beach in summer
NCV in summer...

I use my 2bedroom eoy Hawaii's for occasional occupancy , but mostly deposit and use the AC's to get second units on Flexchange in the places that my 3 bedroom GV units trade for. I then make grade trades with the deposited 2 bedroom units as well 

With this plan I have had 2 units concurrently In Tahoe (ski week) Myrtle Beach, Waiohai and Park City WITHOUT even occupying my home week.  The "snagged" second week on Flexchange has worked 5 years in a row (although last summer in Myrtle Beach the second unit came in on my day of travel)

I am pretty confident that in a points system my 3 bedroom GV will NOT have enough points to get the above units.  If I convert to points I won't be able to get these (unless I buy more) and if I don't convert I will have to hope that other owners don't and continue to deposit in II.  EITHER way my internal exchange options  will be less than they are currently!!!

Except for some increased flexibility at OFF season gigs, I can't come up with any good reason why I should convert.  Seems to me that I should just occupy or continue to trade with II for primo external resorts ,if possible.  I could take the $$$ not spent on conversion and purchase a "deeded" resale at a place I really want to occupy (and become a fledged TUGGER) I could purchase a Maui week resale and drink Mai-Tai's with Perry...

please help me with if there are flaws in my logic


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## dioxide45

Asia2000 said:


> .  I'm sure Marriott will make it very appealing.



I am pretty much with Perry on this one. The only group that this will likely be appealing to is Marriott itself.


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## saturn28

Marriott got the 10,000 points flexichange part of the program from RCI points. Only with RCI you only have to open up a points account to get it. You just have to purchase a cheap RCI points week on Ebay and then open a RCI points account and you are in business. Once you have an RCI points account, you can covert any of your weeks resort into points for $69. I have a Marriott Cypress Harbour week that I convert to RCI points sometimes.

Overall, I don't see anything in this new Marriott points program that would get me to buy in. I like the way the weeks program works. Why they would want to come up with something like this when the majority of owners are happy with the present system is crazy.

Does anyone remember when coke decided to change the taste of coke back in the late 70's. Then when that flooped they quickly changed back and called it Coke Classic. That is what is going to happen to this new Marriott program.


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## dioxide45

saturn28 said:


> Overall, I don't see anything in this new Marriott points program that would get me to buy in. I like the way the weeks program works. Why they would want to come up with something like this when the majority of owners are happy with the present system is crazy.



How can you make that statement? We don't even know what any new program would represent. Now I think the statement could be made if they use the Asia program in North America, so if that is what you were meaning to say, I agree.

If (yes I will continue to say IF just for Fletch, he seems to like it) Marriott comes out with a new program, I think it warrants a thorough analysis before we would ever make the jump. That is if resale owners like us will even be allowed to make the conversion to points.


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## m61376

Asia2000 said:


> m61376,
> 
> 1-3% was not in print.  Rather, just handwriting, so I'm not so sure it is a fact.  The MFs are set at 2.7% of your total points.  Have a great weekend.



Thanks.
btw- the sarcasm was directed at Marriott; I hope you didn't misinterpret it. It is just that it is easy for them to set the MF's artificially low to sell the product. It is unrealistic for them to claim they will rise 1-3% a year when, except for last year, none of the resorts have averaged anywhere near that.


----------



## dioxide45

m61376 said:


> Thanks.
> btw- the sarcasm was directed at Marriott; I hope you didn't misinterpret it. It is just that it is easy for them to set the MF's artificially low to sell the product. It is unrealistic for them to claim they will rise 1-3% a year when, except for last year, none of the resorts have averaged anywhere near that.



I agree, Marriott could subsidize those fees to make them artificially low to get more people to buy in. They could take a lump sum up front and wright it off to apply to a new point system. It would be interesting to check out their financial releases at the end of the year to see if they include anything in there for this.


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## puckmanfl

Hi...

This points thing even be deleterious for the "home resort users".

Hypothetically, one may own a Plat ski week (Park City for example).  In the current system, one can book 12/13 months in advance.  You can also delay until 60 days out to claim a unit.  You may not get the week you want but you are guaranteed some week in your season.

Assuming, there is now some variant of "Disneyland a.k.a. DVC"  An owner can still reserve 12/13 months out, but there will be some magic date (7 mos. in DVC) where everything is "fair game" and open season.  I can guarantee that every plat. ski week will be snapped up at that time.  The side effect is the home resort user will now be forced to make a decision by 7 months out.  Ability to change reservation at home resort ($29 MVCI fee) will also be compromised as at 7 mos. all inventory will be snagged...

Perry is correct.  This whole thing is about "pimpin' the dream".  Please follow my math.  There are about 11,500 total MVCI units spread amongst 54 resorts.  This leaves approx 600, 000 unit weeks available.  The number most commonly stated by sales reps is 440,000 owners.  I believe this is weeks/owned.  I believe there about 250,000 owners that own these 440,000 weeks (about 1.75 weeks/owner).  Thus there are 160,000 of weeks/point inventory unsold.

I am venturing a hypothesis that states that these are the "off season" weeks.  My last 10 sales tours have all focused on the value of "gold/silver" lockoffs as traders, point generators etc. I have been told just about all Plat ski weeks in Park City are sold, only a few plat Arubas and FC's remain.  I was also told that they were down to just one plat plus Pres week at Aruba.  Although the points to be sold are finite (must correspond to unsold week inventory) they are sold as ways of obtaining plat. units.  This only works if the owners of these units can be convinced to relinquish them.  I have not seen any convincing evidence that would lead me or any other sane soul to do so...

Is there any owner of a primo week in MVCI land that can give me the "flipside" of this argument. I would like to look at this from a balanced view, but I just can't find any benefit except for increased flexibility and more days at off season resorts !!!

Please help, as we will all have to make a decision soon!!!


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## dioxide45

puckmanfl said:


> Perry is correct.  This whole thing is about "pimpin' the dream".  Please follow my math.  There are about 11,500 total MVCI units spread amongst 54 resorts.  This leaves approx 600, 000 unit weeks available.  The number most commonly stated by sales reps is 440,000 owners.  I believe this is weeks/owned.  I believe there about 250,000 owners that own these 440,000 weeks (about 1.75 weeks/owner).  Thus there are 160,000 of weeks/point inventory unsold.



I think actually there are 440,000 owners of those 600,000 unit weeks.


----------



## rickandcindy23

I always watch this thread with interest.  I hope II is smart and throws in the incentive of a bonus week for every Marriott deposit, no matter the time of year.  This would put a monkey wrench into Marriott's new exchange program, and it would be interesting to watch this thread then.  If you can get two weeks for a little more than your one week, why wouldn't you stick with II?  

Then again, if Platinum owners can get more than one week in the new system, maybe that would be enough incentive for owners to use Marriott's exchange program, leaving II with only the off-season weeks.   

I think Marriott just hates that II makes so much from Marriott owners, and they know they could have had that profit, too, had they done something like HGVC from the beginning (HGVC doesn't distinguish its resale owners, keeping its resale value high).  

Their new internal exchange program could really be a bust, if II is determined to keep owners.  

I have kept myself from bidding on Desert Springs or the other desert properties, simply because of these rumors.  Marriott is hurting its own resale market.   Maybe they have been admiring Starwood's ability to do that.  :rofl:


----------



## rickandcindy23

saturn28 said:


> Only with RCI you only have to open up a points account to get it. You just have to purchase a cheap RCI points week on Ebay and then open a RCI points account and you are in business. Once you have an RCI points account, you can covert any of your weeks resort into points for $69. I have a Marriott Cypress Harbour week that I convert to RCI points sometimes.



Gee, I only pay $26 to PFD my weeks into RCI Points.  

What is the value of converting a CH week to points?  That would make for expensive points.  I can use my Twin Rivers 3 bedrooms to get 53,500 points for $510 (never have done that because I use the units in weeks).   Do you do a lot of < 9K point exchanges?  

Sorry to be off-topic.  What is the 10,000 pts thing you are talking about?


----------



## puckmanfl

rick and cindy...

just love the  picture...  Thank heavens for (men and women that serve) like your son in law...

If the 600,000 weeks were owned by 440,000 owners the whole system would be almost sold out !!!!

I believe the 11,500 total units is pretty accurate.  I believe I got this info off a TUG thread...

puckman....


----------



## dioxide45

puckmanfl said:


> rick and cindy...
> 
> just love the  picture...  Thank heavens for (men and women that serve) like your son in law...
> 
> If the 600,000 weeks were owned by 440,000 owners the whole system would be almost sold out !!!!
> 
> I believe the 11,500 total units is pretty accurate.  I believe I got this info off a TUG thread...
> 
> puckman....



Mr Marriott himself mentioned the the ~400,000 owner number in his own blog. So I would think that indeed would be the number of owners. Perhaps he was referring to the number of owner owned weeks, but that is not what was stated.


----------



## timeos2

*Hope it gets announced & the speculation can end*



m61376 said:


> One more concern- what happens to individual resort independence and HOA's when MF's are spread across the board. And, what happens to MF's, since in reality different season owners will be paying different MF's? How high is high? And will the Grande Vista owner be happy absorbing the cost of renovations such as the recent issues at the Ocean Club (which is the by-product of MF's being spread across the board)?



It is all too apparent throughout this thread, using this specific quote only as an example, that most of the participants have no idea how a well run points system works and how they do/don't impact the resorts/weeks owners. 

VERY short & incomplete summary:


Independent resorts remain independent
Points are just another option for exchange like RCI/II etc
Costs for the points system are paid for by its members/uers
Inventory for Points members is kept separate from "traditional weeks" inventory
Annual fees are paid by all owners and are the same regardless of your points/weeks choice (usually)

It goes on and on but far too many are attributing negative changes to an offer of a points system on top of what has been offered in the past. It is just another option and does NOT shake or alter the foundations of what you bought. It may, depending on how Marriott chooses to handle it, impact NEW sales going forward and how NEW inventory gets assigned but that is all future stuff, not forced changes to what has already been built & sold. 

I really hope they roll this thing out as rumored if only to stop the flow of twisted & often off the wall speculation that has flourished (aided in no small way by the cunning/ineptitude of the sales staff). It is very interesting to me that a company formerly so revered in a sleazy business has now caused itself to have not one but two of the most read TUG threads of all times - both negative overall in nature. Sad commentary on how desperate even the best timeshare companies easily become when times get a little (OK, maybe a lot) tougher.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

rickandcindy23 said:


> I always watch this thread with interest.  I hope II is smart and throws in the incentive of a bonus week for every Marriott deposit, no matter the time of year.  This would put a monkey wrench into Marriott's new exchange program, and it would be interesting to watch this thread then.  If you can get two weeks for a little more than your one week, why wouldn't you stick with II?
> 
> Then again, if Platinum owners can get more than one week in the new system, maybe that would be enough incentive for owners to use Marriott's exchange program, leaving II with only the off-season weeks.
> 
> *I think Marriott just hates that II makes so much from Marriott owners*, and they know they could have had that profit, too, had they done something like HGVC from the beginning (HGVC doesn't distinguish its resale owners, keeping its resale value high).
> 
> Their new internal exchange program could really be a bust, if II is determined to keep owners.
> 
> I have kept myself from bidding on Desert Springs or the other desert properties, simply because of these rumors.  *Marriott is hurting its own resale market. *  Maybe they have been admiring Starwood's ability to do that.  :rofl:



What prevents you from thinking that Marriott is substantially rewarded on each II membership renewal from a Marriott owner or on each exchange fee? and as a result deriving a handsome revenue source.

Do you think Marriott is really concerned about the resale market? My sense is that they care primarily about developer sales, and to a far lesser extent, resales. If the resale inventory were owned by Marriott, I bet they'd care, but if Marriott's profit on resales is limited to a 40% commission, which includes their costs for doing business, my suspicion is that their far greater interest is in developer sales.

Not to suggest that Marriott is anything but a great company. You can bet Marriott is doing their stockholders a favor, by staying focused on developer sales. I bet Marriott stockholders are grateful for that.


----------



## SueDonJ

timeos2 said:


> ... I really hope they roll this thing out as rumored if only to stop the flow of twisted & often off the wall speculation that has flourished (aided in no small way by the cunning/ineptitude of the sales staff). It is very interesting to me that a company formerly so revered in a sleazy business has now caused itself to have not one but two of the most read TUG threads of all times - both negative overall in nature. Sad commentary on how desperate even the best timeshare companies easily become when times get a little (OK, maybe a lot) tougher.



I completely agree as far as this thread and others related to a points system - Marriott hasn't handled this very well at all and should have done something to prevent its sales staff from "sharing" at least the wrong information that's floating around.  At this point I'm on information overload and just want them to give us details so that we can debate real stuff instead of fantasy on TUG.  

But if the second thread you're referencing is that Aruba Ocean Club one, I respectfully disagree with you there.  It might look bad for Marriott at first glance, but I've been participating in it throughout and don't believe that it has negative connotations at all for Marriott.  With the points system discussions they're definitely leaving owners high and dry with no information, or misinformation from various Marriott employees; the same isn't true at all of the Aruba Ocean Club situation or thread.


----------



## puckmanfl

Hi...

Please don't misunderstand.  I am a very happy MVCI owner.  Educated Consumer thought I was an employee on a different thread.  I am just looking for someone out there in TUG land to show me how a conversion to points will be beneficial!!!

I am hopeful that MVCI is using this new program to become the best and brightest and to build the best "mousetrap".  I just need someone to show me the way...

Please keep in mind that thousands of owners and then resale purchasers had the opportunity to purchase "well run " point systems and have not done so!  I do not believethat we are all mindless sheep led to purchase by the evil developer.  It looks like most of the MVCI owners have had great success with their product and would like to keep it that way!!!


----------



## SueDonJ

EducatedConsumer said:


> ... Do you think Marriott is really concerned about the resale market? My sense is that they care primarily about developer sales, and to a far lesser extent, resales. If the resale inventory were owned by Marriott, I bet they'd care, but if Marriott's profit on resales is limited to a 40% commission, which includes their costs for doing business, my suspicion is that their far greater interest is in developer sales. ...



I agree their primary focus is developer sales and to a lesser extent, resales-by-Marriott.  But like many others I think that the external resale market has hurt developer sales, in that potential owners are able to so easily access through the internet all the resale info that was perhaps not so widely available even seven or eight years ago.  I'm not sure if the current impact is enough to entice Marriott to roll out this new points system now, meaning that the external resale market isn't the catalyst for this new thing, but I definitely think that Marriott is considering the ever-expanding future external resale market as competition to their developer-direct offerings.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

puckmanfl said:


> Hi...
> 
> Please don't misunderstand.  I am a very happy MVCI owner.  Educated Consumer thought I was an employee on a different thread.  I am just looking for someone out there in TUG land to show me how a conversion to points will be beneficial!!!
> 
> I am hopeful that MVCI is using this new program to become the best and brightest and to build the best "mousetrap".  I just need someone to show me the way...
> 
> Please keep in mind that thousands of owners and then resale purchasers had the opportunity to purchase "well run " point systems and have not done so!  I do not believethat we are all mindless sheep led to purchase by the evil developer.  It looks like most of the MVCI owners have had great success with their product and would like to keep it that way!!!



As an owner of three "points" timeshare products, I can tell you that the flexibility that owners of credible points products enjoy are to my way of thinking greater then what "week" owners enjoy, not to suggest that one system does not have disadvantages over another.

My opinion is that some people are agitated over the limited information that has been released by Marriott, to date, which I respect (of Marriott). I wonder if anyone remembers the year leading up to inception of jetBlue, and their campaign "there's something great coming." Apple has taken the same approach, as have many other companies. What I think has some wound up, is the likelihood that their off-peak weeks will be treated for what they are worth. I am reminded of all of the owners who purchased Swallowtail and Spicebush weeks years ago at very low prices, in anticipation of using them to acquire something much greater on exchange. It worked for them for several years, and then the relationship of those resorts with Marriott (fortunately) came to an end (and those owners lost theit internal exchange perk). I also believe that there are some owners who believe that a points product is non-deeded, there are lots of examples to the contrary (e.g. Disney Vacation Club).


----------



## timeos2

*No arms will be twisted off*



puckmanfl said:


> Please keep in mind that thousands of owners and then resale purchasers had the opportunity to purchase "well run " point systems and have not done so!  I do not believethat we are all mindless sheep led to purchase by the evil developer.  It looks like most of the MVCI owners have had great success with their product and would like to keep it that way!!!



And that is an important point. Nothing changes UNLESS you want it to! It makes zero difference to you as an existing owner what Marriott does (with the small exception of when you want to sell - resale pricing can and has taken a beating due to actions by developers not just Marriott) with new/improved trade options. IF you prefer the current system then by all means continue with it. No can / will stop you!  The only change, and it is nothing you can do anything about, is how Marriott decides to treat the inventory THEY control. They are under no obligation to put it into the II system or RCI or any other if they don't wish to. Same for every one of your fellow owners. The only thing that will change is that one additional option will be offered to owners that choose to join and to Marriott as an organization. 

If you feel that new option will degrade the system you now enjoy then that would seem to say you feel there is some unfair advantage being given that system OR will be given to the new system.  In either case (or both) that is an operational issue and one you can rail about and refuse to support but has nothing to do with the value/viability of a potential points system as a new option for owners.  They are OPTIONS. No one can be forced to do anything they don't willingly choose to do.  As you say many good points based systems already exist yet even in the best of them not every owner has decided to join in.  That is their right just as it will be every Marriott owners personal choice if they want to pay more to be part of the "next greatest thing" offered or sit back and enjoy what they already own.


----------



## SueDonJ

puckmanfl said:


> ... Please keep in mind that thousands of owners and then resale purchasers had the opportunity to purchase "well run " point systems and have not done so!  I do not believethat we are all mindless sheep led to purchase by the evil developer.  It looks like most of the MVCI owners have had great success with their product and would like to keep it that way!!!



We love our Marriott weeks and have been very happy with our home resort stays as well as the exchanges we've made.  But I also realize that a good points system could possibly give us more exchange value than what we've gotten up til now - all of our exchanges have been from 3BR units to 2BR units.  That said, if the new points system isn't rolled out or doesn't work for us, we'll happily use our home resort weeks and start working the Marriott Rewards points for other vacations.  (Or continue with II, assuming that this new system doesn't devalue exchange offerings there.)

As far as purchasing Marriott at the time instead of a good points system, I've been saying for years that if DVC's point system and Marriott's resort network were married, THAT would be the perfect system.  We looked at both and Marriott edged out DVC, for us, because Don just isn't the Disney fanatic that I am.  Plus, DVC's external exchange system is so much more limited in scope and owner control than Marriott's - DVC handles the processing and limits the resorts available to owners for external exchange; Marriott gives owners total control for external exchanges limited only to II's portfolio.


----------



## m61376

timeos2 said:


> It goes on and on but far too many are attributing negative changes to an offer of a points system on top of what has been offered in the past. It is just another option and does NOT shake or alter the foundations of what you bought. It may, depending on how Marriott chooses to handle it, impact NEW sales going forward and how NEW inventory gets assigned but that is all future stuff, not forced changes to what has already been built & sold.



John-
I wasn't implying that any points system would alter the foundation of what is already owned UNLESS the owners decide to convert. However, for those that do decide to convert the assessment of MF's may change dramatically and, overall, having MF's paid purely per point without home resorts and a portion simply assigned to each resort proportionate to the point allotment/ownership, while other owners who retain weeks use are paying MF's as they are now, seems to blur the independence of each HOA, since at least some of its funding is coming from mixed interests.


----------



## timeos2

*Not a points system issue*



m61376 said:


> John-
> I wasn't implying that any points system would alter the foundation of what is already owned UNLESS the owners decide to convert. However, for those that do decide to convert the assessment of MF's may change dramatically and, overall, having MF's paid purely per point without home resorts and a portion simply assigned to each resort proportionate to the point allotment/ownership, while other owners who retain weeks use are paying MF's as they are now, seems to blur the independence of each HOA, since at least some of its funding is coming from mixed interests.



Actually that also cannot happen. The basis of fees at any given, existing resort cannot be changed (at least not without the near 100% approval of the owners - impossible to get).  Not having a "home resort" in a points system - if that did happen - does not in any way alter the requirement that the underlying week those points are based on - those cannot go away - have to pay the same fee as every other week. How Marriott as the operator of the new system chooses to collect the fees from the points members can be based on a sliding scale BUT that does not change what they owe to the resort at the basic, deeded week level.  

You do have a worry that given enough time Marriott could amass control of enough weeks to out vote the individual owners. But most states do not allow Developers to re-gain control of HOA's once they have been turned over (but the remaining owners had better be ready & willing to fight) and, if they did achieve that level of control of individual weeks, it would be the existing owners deciding to give up those very rights that created the change in power. Again something you have zero control over as each owner can decide when/if to sell their rights to anyone at any time. Again not a points issue but an ownership/use rights question being drawn into the "evil points" nonsense.


----------



## puckmanfl

good afternoon

Jon has some great points...

On the fateful day I will ask THREE questions...

#1 How much will this cost me???  MF's, entry fee etc..

#2  How many points will my unit and OTHERS be worth?

#3  Can I make this work?

I will then sit down and ready every last scribble and word (fine print) of the offering and determine what is fixed and what can be changed at (developer's discretion).

Based on the above answers, I will then ask myself the biggest query of all" To convert or not to convert?, that is the question!!!!"

John is correct as we all must decide what works for us!!!


----------



## m61376

John-
My point was exactly what you were referring to. I am aware that "The basis of fees at any given, existing resort cannot be changed;" however, the fact that "How Marriott as the operator of the new system chooses to collect the fees from the points members can be based on a sliding scale BUT that does not change what they owe to the resort at the basic, deeded week level," can lead to the scenario that I was suggesting. Week owners can continue to pay their individual MF's as they have been doing right along, while the fees due to the resort from weeks converted to points will be paid out of the general Marriott MF pool.

While the resort ends up with the same amount of money, the funding can vary from one group of owners to another. Amongst the retained weeks owners, the MF are uniform regardless of season, while those that have converted to points will receive an allotment of points and their MF's will be based on that (if a plan akin to the Asia Pacific program is introduced). 

And while I understand that Marriott cannot simply take back control of the HOA at its whim, IF enough owners turn in their weeks and give up their ownership rights back to a centralized Marriott system, the points system over time may land up owning most of a resort and any homeowner association would become merely a figurehead. Although this is not a "points issue" per se, it is a possible natural consequence of a shift to a trust based points system.


----------



## timeos2

*One source payment can be a plus*



m61376 said:


> While the resort ends up with the same amount of money, the funding can vary from one group of owners to another. Amongst the retained weeks owners, the MF are uniform regardless of season, while those that have converted to points will receive an allotment of points and their MF's will be based on that (if a plan akin to the Asia Pacific program is introduced).
> 
> And while I understand that Marriott cannot simply take back control of the HOA at its whim, IF enough owners turn in their weeks and give up their ownership rights back to a centralized Marriott system, the points system over time may land up owning most of a resort and any homeowner association would become merely a figurehead. Although this is not a "points issue" per se, it is a possible natural consequence of a shift to a trust based points system.



Your first paragraph makes a good point (sorry) but it should actually be to the individual weeks owners favor not detriment if handled properly.  The fees due from the trust held weeks - each and every one of them - are due under the exact same terms and conditions as the individual weeks are. And the trust has to cover them ALL within the published due date subject to interest and penalties - doesn't matter if they have collected from the trust members or not (remember - the Trust members are no longer deeded owners at the resort. If they are delinquent it is to the Trust NOT the resort - the Trust must pay 100% of the weeks they own in full & on time or the Trust is in default & can be locked out of ALL weeks they own!).  So that billing becomes nearly guaranteed for all those weeks and an easy collection from one single source. Not a negative for owners at all. 

As for part two there is a very real possibility of the Trust gaining a majority control but far less likely for older resorts than newer ones. And again if the Developer is the operating entity then they are usually barred from voting themselves into power. The individual owners have to be very vigilant on that last part.


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> good morning!!!
> 
> Looking at this thru the "How it affects me glasses!!"
> 
> Currently I use 3 bedroom plat Grande Vista Weeks for mostly exchange purposes.  These units have snagged:
> 
> Plat ski weeks
> Hawaii  in summer
> HHI and Myrtle Beach in summer
> NCV in summer...
> 
> I use my 2bedroom eoy Hawaii's for occasional occupancy , but mostly deposit and use the AC's to get second units on Flexchange in the places that my 3 bedroom GV units trade for. I then make grade trades with the deposited 2 bedroom units as well
> 
> With this plan I have had 2 units concurrently In Tahoe (ski week) Myrtle Beach, Waiohai and Park City WITHOUT even occupying my home week.  The "snagged" second week on Flexchange has worked 5 years in a row (although last summer in Myrtle Beach the second unit came in on my day of travel)
> 
> I am pretty confident that in a points system my 3 bedroom GV will NOT have enough points to get the above units.  If I convert to points I won't be able to get these (unless I buy more) and if I don't convert I will have to hope that other owners don't and continue to deposit in II.  EITHER way my internal exchange options  will be less than they are currently!!!
> 
> Except for some increased flexibility at OFF season gigs, I can't come up with any good reason why I should convert.  Seems to me that I should just occupy or continue to trade with II for primo external resorts ,if possible.  I could take the $$$ not spent on conversion and purchase a "deeded" resale at a place I really want to occupy (and become a fledged TUGGER) I could purchase a Maui week resale and drink Mai-Tai's with Perry...
> 
> please help me with if there are flaws in my logic


With any change or new system there will be plusses/minuses and winners & losers.  Comparing to your previous exchanges, it would likely be a wash for most people.  A 3 BR Plat GV unit would likely garner at least around enough points to get a 2 BR at the resorts you mentioned.  You'd lose much of the ability to trade up though.  So no more 3 weeks of trade (2 BR, studio, AC) out of one 3 BR unit.  You'd lose some ability to get over on the system but pick up some additional options to reserve directly rather than playing the exchange waiting game.  I think it's very likely that someone with a 3 BR at GV or a 2 BR at places like Williamsburg, Doral, Legends Edge, etc will be better off with most ways such a points system could be rolled out.  The likely losers are going to be those that own Bronze because the conversion costs are likely to be too high, and those that own truly high demand seasonal resorts like HH summer at the top resorts.  And even for those that chose not to convert, there will be effects and consequences.  Far less inventory going to II, likely loss of the 24 day trading preference at some point, less units available for any given week to reserve, esp for Gold/Silver and resorts with an expanded Plat season.

I would concur that a well run, appropriately positioned points system could easily be better overall than the current system.  But not better for everyone.  The big issue really isn't how to design a good points system but how to get from where we are now to get one up and running, put another way, how to get owners to convert.

I would absolutely disagree with the concept that there is no potential effect to current owners who don't convert, there are several risks depending on HOW the system might be managed.  I mentioned above about potential loss of the internal II trading preference and less inventory though it might come with even higher trade power.  Also, it depends on how they decide which weeks go to each component.  It's a big difference if they just take the % of owners who have converted in a given season vs the underlying weeks for a given deed.  There are a number of issues that could work for and against a given owner who doesn't convert and the devil is in the details as they say.


----------



## puckmanfl

Hi...

inventory will be in three FLAVORS

weeks inventory (II)
points inventory  (MVCI)
developer inventory (unsold + units returned for points)

If MVCI is on top of their game they will initially put these in the points game.  When a new program is rolled out, you would want your first customers to scream from the rooftops "Hey look at this , it really works.. we did get Koolina or Crystal Shores!!!"

My crystal ball says internal exchanges will be difficult for ALL owners that do not convert!!!  Non converters should be comfy with home unit usage and external trades...

The most concern thing is that we will all be making a blind decision without knowledge of what he other owners are doing!!!


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Hi...
> 
> inventory will be in three FLAVORS
> 
> weeks inventory (II)
> points inventory  (MVCI)
> developer inventory (unsold + units returned for points)
> 
> If MVCI is on top of their game they will initially put these in the points game.  When a new program is rolled out, you would want your first customers to scream from the rooftops "Hey look at this , it really works.. we did get Koolina or Crystal Shores!!!"
> 
> My crystal ball says internal exchanges will be difficult for ALL owners that do not convert!!!  Non converters should be comfy with home unit usage and external trades...
> 
> The most concern thing is that we will all be making a blind decision without knowledge of what he other owners are doing!!!


In general terms I would agree.  How the weeks for high demand times are broken down to one side vs the other will be key for me and likely everyone else as to the feasibility of standing pat.  Costs and other specifics will determine the desire to convert. There is another group to yours above, units at resorts in active sales and future resorts that have not yet been declared into timeshare inventory and in some cases, might never be.  These resorts would not be available to members in any capacity.  The other portion is how MVCI would reserve and dispose of weeks and points they own.  Would they do like DVC and hold back on the best weeks giving owners first crack or would they find a way to secure all the best weeks for themselves for rental or sales incentives?


----------



## billymach4

puckmanfl said:


> Hi...
> 
> inventory will be in three FLAVORS
> 
> weeks inventory (II)
> points inventory  (MVCI)
> developer inventory (unsold + units returned for points)
> 
> If MVCI is on top of their game they will initially put these in the points game.  When a new program is rolled out, you would want your first customers to scream from the rooftops "Hey look at this , it really works.. we did get Koolina or Crystal Shores!!!"
> 
> My crystal ball says internal exchanges will be difficult for ALL owners that do not convert!!!  Non converters should be comfy with home unit usage and external trades...
> 
> The most concern thing is that we will all be making a blind decision without knowledge of what he other owners are doing!!!




http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121814

Disclaimer... This is only a rough estimate so don't shoot me if someone can further refine these estimates. 

Here are some potential numbers to plug in 

595,000 of potential units of II owner weeks inventory
105,000 of unsold developer inventory that can be used for the rumored points system. 


It would appear to me that Marriott is really behind in owner inventory. The only way Marriott can eclipse the owner weeks inventory is by adding their hotels into the mix. I am sure Marriott will enter this into the equation.

Fletch, 

Somehow I am now talking my way out of the rumor theory. But I still say it is a rumor.  

But I now am begining to see how Marriott can make this work to their advantage if it comes to fruition.


----------



## SueDonJ

billymach4 said:


> ... Somehow I am now talking my way out of the rumor theory. But I still say it is a rumor.
> 
> But I now am begining to see how Marriott can make this work to their advantage if it comes to fruition.



Marriott's dastardly plan is working - you will now be assimilated ...  :hysterical:


----------



## jlf58

The will add in some hotels to the point system  



billymach4 said:


> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121814
> 
> Disclaimer... This is only a rough estimate so don't shoot me if someone can further refine these estimates.
> 
> Here are some potential numbers to plug in
> 
> 595,000 of potential units of II owner weeks inventory
> 105,000 of unsold developer inventory that can be used for the rumored points system.
> 
> 
> It would appear to me that Marriott is really behind in owner inventory. The only way Marriott can eclipse the owner weeks inventory is by adding their hotels into the mix. I am sure Marriott will enter this into the equation.
> 
> Fletch,
> 
> Somehow I am now talking my way out of the rumor theory. But I still say it is a rumor.
> 
> But I now am begining to see how Marriott can make this work to their advantage if it comes to fruition.


----------



## Asia2000

puckmanfl said:


> Hi...
> 
> I am hopeful that MVCI is using this new program to become the best and brightest and to build the best "mousetrap".  I just need someone to show me the way...
> 
> Please keep in mind that thousands of owners and then resale purchasers had the opportunity to purchase "well run " point systems and have not done so!  I do not believethat we are all mindless sheep led to purchase by the evil developer.  It looks like most of the MVCI owners have had great success with their product and would like to keep it that way!!!



Puckmanfl,

I do not think the possible new program is really about deeded week owners.  Yes, they will offer conversion and no I do not think it will be a good deal.  The money will not be made off of the deeded week owners, rather off the new "lump sums" coming in for the new points buyers.  In my opinion Marriott is going after a newer, younger group of buyers (all those single folks making 150K+ per year).  These "cool" people are not looking for 2 bedrooms and a kitchen.  Rather a one bedroom or studio would work just fine.  After all, they can buy more points later (at a higher price) if they get married and have kids.  

No offense, but timeshares kind of have an "old foggey" kind of image.  I think Marriott will market this new program to the I-pod/pad/phone crowd as being the "must have" thing.  Kind of like a Lincoln Town car versus a Cadillac CTS-V.  Speculation of course, but they want to offer TONS of options via a timeshare program that will allow them to stay in "any" Marriott property worldwide.  When presented with the Marriott Asia Pacific program, it was presented almost like "here are the keys to the best Marriott has to offer" (Resorts, top hotels, flexible stays from 1 day to 14 days or more, and the rest of the Marriott chain (Courtyard, Residence Inn, Fairfield, etc).  Plus with Marriott Rewards "the program everyone is familiar with", you can add flights and rental cars to your trip (unless you want to fly American, haha).  This is brand loyalty building at its best. 

I do not think Marriott is going to try to "one over" any current deeded week owner.  After all, they just signed a very long term contract with II and a week owner is entitled to his week, no matter what.

I think the big difference will begin in ten years.  At this point, Marriott will probably have five or six new "mega" resorts in the best areas that are owned 100% by points program people.  Yes, Marriott will still manage the deeded properties to their best ability, but, the deeded properties may not have the zeal and attraction they once did.  Yes, they can trade in via II to these "mega" resorts, but maybe not at the priority level that a direct trading points program owner would.  Over time, the attraction of the point program may be much more for deeded week owners.  Enough attraction to switch now?  Not sure.

The real attraction to covert would be that you would get into a points program at a much lower cost per point than what would be sold in the future.  In Asia, the difference is $0.75 versus today of $1.25.  You cannot buy two programs and combine them.  You have to buy one program and add points, otherwise you have two interval fees, etc.  Is this enough to make you want to convert?  Probably not.  Would you have wished you did in 20 years?  Hard to say.


----------



## puckmanfl

Good morning Asia (or night) at your location...

I am just curious as to the location of all those "single folks making $150,000/year".  If they are the target of the new Marriott marketing wave, "doomsday" for the company is near!!!  Maybe now, I will be able to go on a sales tour without "my chief of staff"

In my universe, the young hot shot singles are moving home with mom and dad and are entering the toughest job market in 50 years!!!

Basically your vision is as follows:

The new world will be a sleek hybrid of MVCI traditional TS combined with the modern world of "primo" new "hotel" type resorts in all of the "hot" locations.  Using your AP program numbers, a new customer will be asked to fork over $36,000 for 32K points (1.13pt/dollar).  For this they can get a 2 bedroom plat unit in an old foggie TS or 160,000 pts (90k in 2020) in a pt program with ever present devaluation.  The owner will pay about $950 in mf's (always rising) + lose the interest on the initial 36K investment ($720 at 2%) for a yearly cost of $1600.  For this you will get 7 nites at a level 1-5 Marriott (residence inn) or 5 at one of the "hot" level 7-8 joints....

I think I will just enjoy two weeks in Hawaii every year and exchange the others externally and hope for the best.  If this is the plan, I truly wish them well!!!


----------



## Asia2000

Your point is well taken.  I will be in your camp if this is the case.  I just think the new buyers will not be as smart as the TUG community.  In a sense, I was playing "devils advocate", but that is hard to tell on an e-mail.  

Marriott will need a legitimate, worthy offer for current deed holders for anyone with financial sense to move to points.  In my opinion, points will not look attractive for 20 years.  Deed values will increase in the next 10 years and then stabilize.  I have not facts or proof of this.  Rather it is just my opinion as much of my writing on TUG has been.  I just wanted to promote some new style thinking.

I guess I got put in my place on that last write up.  But, I'm a big boy.  I can handle it.  LOL.

Thanks for your opinion though, seriously.


----------



## puckmanfl

asia...

waking up at 5 am EST to interact with thoughtful pro-active posters such as yourself is what makes this so much fun...

To be quite honest, I am a "mega exchanger" and I am down to just a  few MVCI properties in the US that appeal to me.  The Spain and Thailand resorts will be my next frontier (after my 2011 25th anniversary 3 week Hawaii gig ).  I will look forward to your insights into your part of the globe!!!


----------



## Clark

puckmanfl said:


> My crystal ball says internal exchanges will be difficult for ALL owners that do not convert!!!  Non converters should be comfy with home unit usage and external trades...



I would be interested in seeing some discussion on what affect you all think this will have on independent Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges.


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning...

independent Marriott-Marriott exchanges are an interesting topic..

Here is my take based on personal opinion and intuition...

#1  Most owners have ZERO idea that this can be done.  TUG and reweek seem to be the major players although I am sure there are a few other websites devoted to this.  I just don't see many Marriott-Marriott exchanges even listed on TUG or redweek

#2  I believe that OFF weeks will  be easy to do thru points and II as there always googles of these units available.  If you have a "primo" week, looking to extended stays in off season resorts a point system could be a bonanza...

#3 The concern is "like-like" plat exchanges.  Asia's analogy of the BCS College Football comes into play here. The Summer HHI owner, Plat ski week owner, winter Oceana Palms owner and the Winter Aruba/FC owner all believe they have the best units.  This not include the Hawaii owners who always believe their unit is the most valuable.  Just looking at sample exchange proposals on TUG and redweek lead me to believe that everyone is always looking for an "uptrade' (imagine that)..

I am not optimistic for an ever growing market of independent exchanges...

I may be wrong but!!!


----------



## m61376

Asia-
First, thanks for your thoughtful and informative posts. 

Although I can understand why you feel the new Marriott program is going after a different market, but besides the explanation given by puckmanfl, which is a valid commentary on the limited finances of many young singles who formerly belonged to that "yuppie" group, I don't think even those that can afford it would be a large enough market. Today's young singles are looking for instant gratification, and are more interested in the here and now. I don't think most of them will be interested in plucking down thousands of dollars for future vacation options and most seem to want to do what they want when they want; while the versatility part of the package will be very attractive (esp. IF they include hotels or really push the hotel options by converting to reward points) many of them are aware of the limitations of booking at least flights with miles and I am not so sure they will clamor to join something with similar hassles. 

There are still some twenty and thirty something singles making the 150K, but they are working 80+ hours a week. Their free time and their vacation time are limited, and they want the ease of booking. Also, as anyone with grown kids will attest to, this is definitely the "last minute" generation, and the last minute planning doesn't mesh well with timeshare ownership. And even those who still have those cushy jobs have counterparts who are looking for a job, so they are being more conservative in their spending on big ticket items.

So, personally, I think marketing geared to that group would be a big mistake.


----------



## dioxide45

Clark said:


> I would be interested in seeing some discussion on what affect you all think this will have on independent Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges.



I think short term, there will be little change. Except that people will be looking at the point charts (if there are any) and valuing their weeks. People who are trading their week for another will know how Marriott values them and expect additional compensation if their week is worth more in points.



puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> independent Marriott-Marriott exchanges are an interesting topic..
> 
> Here is my take based on personal opinion and intuition...
> 
> #1  Most owners have ZERO idea that this can be done.  TUG and reweek seem to be the major players although I am sure there are a few other websites devoted to this.  I just don't see many Marriott-Marriott exchanges even listed on TUG or redweek



Ownertrades.com has listings also. Just for Marriott to Marriott  



> #2  I believe that OFF weeks will  be easy to do thru points and II as there always googles of these units available.  If you have a "primo" week, looking to extended stays in off season resorts a point system could be a bonanza...
> 
> #3 The concern is "like-like" plat exchanges.  Asia's analogy of the BCS College Football comes into play here. The Summer HHI owner, Plat ski week owner, winter Oceana Palms owner and the Winter Aruba/FC owner all believe they have the best units.  This not include the Hawaii owners who always believe their unit is the most valuable.  Just looking at sample exchange proposals on TUG and redweek lead me to believe that everyone is always looking for an "uptrade' (imagine that)..
> 
> I am not optimistic for an ever growing market of independent exchanges...
> 
> I may be wrong but!!!



I think for the most part people looking to do direct trades have prime weeks and are also looking for prime weeks. We own at Grande Vista and would never look to do a direct exchange. I know that no one will want to give up their prime week/location for something they can get as a getaway for cheap.

With the current exchange system, trade value is a secret. In a points system it is much more transparent. People will know how Marriott values weeks/resorts.

Today, people look to direct trades to save some money. They can save $109 + $89 (Marriott to Marriott exchange fee and II membership). A lot depends on how Marriott handles internal exchanges. Will they also charge an exchange fee? If they do and depending on what that is, direct trades could still be a viable option for those looking to save some cash. If Marriott offers it up for free, then direct exchange will be dead in the long term.

I don't expect Marriott to not charge a fee for internal exchanges. They need to pay for all of the research and development somehow.


----------



## timeos2

*Hey - mine is ALWAYS better than yours!*



puckmanfl said:


> #3 The concern is "like-like" plat exchanges.  Asia's analogy of the BCS College Football comes into play here. The Summer HHI owner, Plat ski week owner, winter Oceana Palms owner and the Winter Aruba/FC owner all believe they have the best units.  This not include the Hawaii owners who always believe their unit is the most valuable.  Just looking at sample exchange proposals on TUG and redweek lead me to believe that everyone is always looking for an "uptrade' (imagine that)..
> 
> I am not optimistic for an ever growing market of independent exchanges...
> 
> I may be wrong but!!!



I think you are right on. Everyone thinks what they have is worth at least what YOU have - most likely far more    It is very hard to make a one for one trade for a number of reasons. Makes you realize how tough a job II/RCI has trying to do just that.  Its a big reason why people think that point value doesn't really reflect reality but, usually, it is a third party evaluation that only wants to assure that the time gets claimed. 

They have every reason to value it correctly and zero to favor a developer or resort group as that just means they'll be stuck with time no one will take at those rates. The cries from those that always seem to feel RCI/II, whoever, favors one group or another - interestingly and predictably at the expense of THEIR favorite destination(s) - ring very hollow.  An exchange company has the goal of having time sensitive inventory claimed not over valued and left to waste. Undervalued and it gets snapped up too quickly and leaves unwanted time which is really over valued thus unwanted. What a fine line and delicate balance they have to try to achieve.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*RCI Last Call & Instant Exchange.*




timeos2 said:


> An exchange company has the goal of having time sensitive inventory claimed not over valued and left to waste.


Not only that, RCI (for example) has 2 safety valves aimed at seeing that the overvalued banked timeshare weeks do not go to waste -- _Last Call_ & _Instant Exchange_. 

Timeshare exchange is sweet from RCI's perspective.  They pay _nothing_ for the weeks under their control & they collect exchange fees for letting people make reservations to use those weeks, which are already paid for by members who also pay dues to RCI.  

When time is getting short (i.e., 6 weeks or less before check-in), RCI offers the leftover dogs & cats for no more than 9*,*000 points (plus exchange fee -- via _Instant Exchange_ ) or for bargain-rate rentals (via _Last Call_ ). 

Big bargain for RCI members flexible enough to sign up just 6 weeks out. 

Good deal for RCI in getting something rather than nothing for overvalued weeks that have gone stale & are at risk for going to waste. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## dioxide45

AwayWeGo said:


> When time is getting short (i.e., 6 weeks or less before check-in), RCI offers the leftover dogs & cats for no more than 9*,*000 points (_Instant Exchange_ ) or for bargain-rate rentals (_Last Call_ ).




I have a question because I know nothing of how RCI points works. Do they charge an exchange fee for 9000 point or any point exchanges in addition to the points membership fee?


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Instant Exchange = 9,000 Points (Or Fewer) + Exchange Fee.*




dioxide45 said:


> Do they charge an exchange fee for 9000 point or any point exchanges in addition to the points membership fee?


Yes -- _Instant Exchange_ is for RCI _Points_ exchanges into RCI _Weeks_ timeshares for 9*,*000 points (maximum) _plus_ exchange fee for the whole week, regardless of unit size & irrespective of Gold-Silver-Bronze crown rating.  (Well, there isn't any actual _Bronze Crown_ rating, but you know what I mean.)  

All our _Instant Exchange_ reservations have been into nice USA timeshares (Florida & Virginia) for 7*,*500 points + exchange fee. 

By contrast, straight-points reservations require the full points-value of the timeshare being exchanged into even if the reservation is made today for check-in tomorrow.  (Go figure.)

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## EducatedConsumer

All of this speculation and talk over conjecture. Wow!


----------



## puckmanfl

good afternoon...

you ain't see nuttin' yet...

just wait until MVCI puts out the "CHART".  The one where each resort and season is assigned a point value and the secrecy ends!!!!

that ought to be fun!!!


----------



## dioxide45

puckmanfl said:


> good afternoon...
> 
> you ain't see nuttin' yet...
> 
> just wait until MVCI puts out the "CHART".  The one where each resort and season is assigned a point value and the secrecy ends!!!!
> 
> that ought to be fun!!!



I think the Internet might blow up if/when that happens.

I am still thinking we will have to see any chart from someone who posts one that is absconded from a sales presentation. Early on when Marriott is trying to sell the new system, I think they are going to be overly protective of that proprietary information. They don't want anyone thinking long and hard about this. They want to get you to a sales presentation where they can spin their view and give you little time to analyze their fuzzy math. Once people here start buying in, then the information will be more redily available.


----------



## puckmanfl

hi...

they are going to have to publish the "chart"  Who in their right mind would do a points conversion without knowing the cost and what value they can get????

just curious!!!!!


----------



## dioxide45

puckmanfl said:


> hi...
> 
> they are going to have to publish the "chart"  Who in their right mind would do a points conversion without knowing the cost and what value they can get????
> 
> just curious!!!!!



They will let people see it, at the sales presentation. If you buy, then you get the new packet. That is where we will see charts from, not directly from Marriott (unless you go on a tour). I hope I am wrong, but currently they usually don't let you walk away with any materials from a presentation unless you buy. They don't want you thinking about it because they know when you do, you are less likely to buy in.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*An Educated Consumer Is Not Their Best Customer.*




puckmanfl said:


> Who in their right mind would do a points conversion without knowing the cost and what value they can get?


Timeshare sellers -- including the ones pushing points-system conversions -- don't exactly favor pitching to people in their right minds. 

Rather, professional timeshare sellers use the old razzle-dazzle & ballyhoo to fast-talk people into signing up for big bux _before_ they come to their senses. 

( Just saying. ) 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## puckmanfl

Hi...

I have faith in the human condition!!! I don't think there will be a single conversion until the customer views the "CHART".  This is going to be billed as "ALL ACCESS" isn't anyone going to check????


I know TUGGERS are a cynical lot, but this is ludicrous.  Even for us!!!


----------



## taffy19

Asia2000 said:


> Your point is well taken.  I will be in your camp if this is the case.  I just think the new buyers will not be as smart as the TUG community.  In a sense, I was playing "devils advocate", but that is hard to tell on an e-mail.
> 
> Marriott will need a legitimate, worthy offer for current deed holders for anyone with financial sense to move to points.  In my opinion, points will not look attractive for 20 years.  Deed values will increase in the next 10 years and then stabilize.  I have not facts or proof of this.  Rather it is just my opinion as much of my writing on TUG has been.  I just wanted to promote some new style thinking.
> 
> I guess I got put in my place on that last write up.  But, I'm a big boy.  I can handle it.  LOL.
> 
> Thanks for your opinion though, seriously.


Asia, you may be right that Marriott is targeting a new market as the growth of the economy will not be in the USA but rather in your part of the world so they are gearing up for the future. I remember reading here that one of the new resorts was furnished in a complete different style than we are used to and the pictures were in that thread. Several people commented that they didn't like it. We had no idea that this was part of their new plan already.

I am curious how they are going to promote this wonderful deal to us but I'll bet that the word flexibility will be used a lot and the dream of vacationing anywhere in the world if hotel stays are included too. It's going to be fun to go on a tour and hear the spin and I am looking forward to the feedback here as someone will hear it sooner.


----------



## puckmanfl

hi

Keep in mind the track record of this organization with the "linkage" of hotel stays and TS units.  Does the "enhancement/devaluation" of MR points WITHOUT an increase in the points available per TS unit remain in anyone's memory???


----------



## dioxide45

puckmanfl said:


> Hi...
> 
> I have faith in the human condition!!! I don't think there will be a single conversion until the customer views the "CHART".  This is going to be billed as "ALL ACCESS" isn't anyone going to check????
> 
> 
> I know TUGGERS are a cynical lot, but this is ludicrous.  Even for us!!!



Anyone have a link to the Asia Pacific points chart that would happen to be available on a Marriott website?

I couldn't find one at http://www.marriottasiaholidays.com/index.shtml


----------



## taffy19

dioxide45 said:


> I think short term, there will be little change. Except that people will be looking at the point charts (if there are any) and valuing their weeks. People who are trading their week for another will know how Marriott values them and expect additional compensation if their week is worth more in points.
> 
> 
> 
> Ownertrades.com has listings also. Just for Marriott to Marriott *
> 
> 
> 
> I think for the most part people looking to do direct trades have prime weeks and are also looking for prime weeks. We own at Grande Vista and would never look to do a direct exchange. I know that no one will want to give up their prime week/location for something they can get as a getaway for cheap.
> 
> With the current exchange system, trade value is a secret. In a points system it is much more transparent. People will know how Marriott values weeks/resorts.
> 
> Today, people look to direct trades to save some money. They can save $109 + $89 (Marriott to Marriott exchange fee and II membership). A lot depends on how Marriott handles internal exchanges. Will they also charge an exchange fee? If they do and depending on what that is, direct trades could still be a viable option for those looking to save some cash. If Marriott offers it up for free, then direct exchange will be dead in the long term.
> 
> I don't expect Marriott to not charge a fee for internal exchanges. They need to pay for all of the research and development somehow.


Don't you feel that owners do private exchanges because they know that owners get better views than exchangers or it is easier to make an exchange from a 2 or 3 BR condo to another one of the same size?


----------



## brigechols

iconnections said:


> Don't you feel that owners do private exchanges because they know that owners get better views than exchangers or it is easier to make an exchange from a 2 or 3 BR condo to another one of the same size?



For me, a private exchange is an opportunity to take the uncertainty out of an exchange (where and when). I like to plan in advance for spring break and summer break and it is great to connect with other owners having similar motivation.


----------



## jin

brigechols said:


> For me, a private exchange is an opportunity to take the uncertainty out of an exchange (where and when). I like to plan in advance for spring break and summer break and it is great to connect with other owners having similar motivation.



I am considering a private exchange, but have an important question --- How does the transaction occur in such a way that you know the other side is not going to scam your week, and not follow through with a week they promised you at their resort (assuming it is a later week than mine)?  This is my main concern because I likely won't know how honest the trader on the other side might be??


----------



## DanCali

jin said:


> This is my main concern because I likely won't know how honest the trader on the other side might be??



I haven't done a direct exchange yet, but I don't see this concern much different from renting from someone. 

When you rent, you never know if the owner keeps your name on the reservation. But if you have a written contract it presumably makes things safer and gives you some protection (and ground to take things to small claims court if anything goes wrong). Also, as you're talking to the person you can get an idea of who they are (just by using Google for starters) and how reliable or accessible they are.


----------



## MOXJO7282

I've done one direct exchange and it was with another tugger so there was a sense of comfort there. I traded a GO gold oceanside for the same at Oceanwatch for the same exact week. I think that was a very even exchange. 

I wish it were easier but it just seems to me its not all that easy to find what you want exactly when you need it.


----------



## Dean

DanCali said:


> I haven't done a direct exchange yet, but I don't see this concern much different from renting from someone.
> 
> When you rent, you never know if the owner keeps your name on the reservation. But if you have a written contract it presumably makes things safer and gives you some protection (and ground to take things to small claims court if anything goes wrong). Also, as you're talking to the person you can get an idea of who they are (just by using Google for starters) and how reliable or accessible they are.


A direct exchange, like a private rental, entails a lot of trust.  The risk is less for the one traveling first and more for the one traveling last.  I think the main way to avoid issues is to simply be clear about the expectations.  For that many use a contract though I don't think a contract offers as much protection as some do.  Certainly some sense of familiarity is helpful as in Joe's case.


----------



## JimIg23

I agree with the direct exhanges, either with those I know or tuggers I see here alot.  I have had good luck with the travel agencies in Ebay with extremely high positive volumes for my weekend trips rentals, although I have only done those to places I can drive too just in case something went wrong....


----------



## winger

Direct exchanges with TUG members and private parties I know (neighbors, co-workers, etc) seem to have worked for us so far.  But we still mainly use II.


----------



## dioxide45

dioxide45 said:


> Anyone have a link to the Asia Pacific points chart that would happen to be available on a Marriott website?
> 
> I couldn't find one at http://www.marriottasiaholidays.com/index.shtml



I think the fact that this can't really be located online is evidence enough that Marriott won't be overly forthcoming with a points chart under a new system.


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening...

regardless of the method of purchase (retail or resale) it is my humble opinion that MVCI (and other high end TS products) owners are a moderately successful and well educated group that have invested anywhere from 10k to 200K (sometimes more) in this product...

I still am incredulous that a SINGLE one will convert to points without a "CHART". 

I still have faith in the "human condition"....


----------



## James1975NY

dioxide45 said:


> I think the fact that this can't really be located online is evidence enough that Marriott won't be overly forthcoming with a points chart under a new system.



This is not uncommon. I am sure that the owners of the Asia-Pacific club have access to it online.


----------



## dioxide45

James1975NY said:


> This is not uncommon. I am sure that the owners of the Asia-Pacific club have access to it online.



I don't doubt owners have all the access they need. It is the access to those looking to buy in that need to go to a presentation to see the coveted points chart. But they only get to see, touching is limited, and keeping is out of the question.


----------



## drp392

The DVC charts are accessible online and it's the only reason I haven't bought from them.  Have you ever looked at how many points it takes for a 3BR prime season?  I'm guessing you have to buy $100K+ in points just for that one week every year.  Please tell me this new points system won't be that ridiculous.


----------



## m61376

I venture to guess even if they don't officially post them online, somehow they will be posted online here within a day or two of release.

Marriott will have to release the info. to prospective buyers. How else will they "wow" them with the potential trades they can get now, and their ability to upgrade at any time. In order to sell the flexibility they will have to provide the numbers.


----------



## dioxide45

m61376 said:


> I venture to guess even if they don't officially post them online, somehow they will be posted online here within a day or two of release.
> 
> Marriott will have to release the info. to prospective buyers. How else will they "wow" them with the potential trades they can get now, and their ability to upgrade at any time. In order to sell the flexibility they will have to provide the numbers.



I agree, someone will have to abscond with them from a sales presentation. We will then see them on here.


----------



## puckmanfl

Hi...

The "CHART" will be everywhere!!!  MVCI is betting the future of their organization on it.  They are only going to get one "crack at it" and I truly hope they get it right!!!

The "CHART" will be the key to "sellin' the dream".  Even Perry is  laying low waiting for its release!!!

Dioxide is right, the internet may implode on release day!!!


----------



## Dean

drp392 said:


> The DVC charts are accessible online and it's the only reason I haven't bought from them.  Have you ever looked at how many points it takes for a 3BR prime season?  I'm guessing you have to buy $100K+ in points just for that one week every year.  Please tell me this new points system won't be that ridiculous.


It's not that bad for most resorts but the 3 BR units are at a premium with DVC.  Depending on home resort and season, maybe $40-60K and yearly fees in the $2500-3000 range.  BLT will be more and it will be around $100K or more in some cases.  The problem with DVC besides that it's set up purposefully for the 3 BR to be at a premium (about the same as a 2 BR and 2 studios) is that there is no guarantee in getting them even with home resort priority and calling day 1 when they open.  I would agree that the first guess will have to be the best guess but I suspect Marriott will reserve the right to adjust them as needed.


----------



## jlf58

I am real curious to see what places like Marco and Oceana Palms are getting points wise. Magically they will get alot of points to improve sales.. My guess is Marco Platinum will get as much as Maui Sequel Platinum 







puckmanfl said:


> Hi...
> 
> The "CHART" will be everywhere!!!  MVCI is betting the future of their organization on it.  They are only going to get one "crack at it" and I truly hope they get it right!!!
> 
> The "CHART" will be the key to "sellin' the dream".  Even Perry is  laying low waiting for its release!!!
> 
> Dioxide is right, the internet may implode on release day!!!


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening...

After the "CHART" is evaluated, the next question will be...

What will this cost (fee +MF's) and how does it compare to current costs??

The savy owner is going to have to look at the fine print to see what can be "changed" at the developers discretion!!!


----------



## m61376

Fletch said:


> I am real curious to see what places like Marco and Oceana Palms are getting points wise. Magically they will get alot of points to improve sales.. My guess is Marco Platinum will get as much as Maui Sequel Platinum



If the system is a points overlay system with home resort priority I understand that. But- IF the system is purely a points based system, will assigning a lot of points to March and/or Oceana Palms improve sales? That confuses me a little- because then wouldn't it actually "cost" more to trade into, because the buyer would need to buy more points up front?

I understand how higher point assignment has been used to artificially bolster sales by Starwood, for ex., but IF Marriott adopts a program similar to the Asia Pacific program I'm a bit confused as to how heightened point value would be a stimulus for sales. How would that work?


----------



## JimIg23

dioxide45 said:


> I agree, someone will have to abscond with them from a sales presentation. We will then see them on here.



Hopefully a Tugger goes to a sales presentation the day they are finished with training!


----------



## Asia2000

*Asia*



dioxide45 said:


> Anyone have a link to the Asia Pacific points chart that would happen to be available on a Marriott website?
> 
> Dioxide,
> 
> I have the charts.  Just let me know what you are interested in knowing.  For the US resorts.  It's Hawaii Ko'Olina, Hawaii Waiohai and Vegas Chateau.  MVC-AP considers all 52 weeks either Platinum or Platinum Plus at all three of these resorts.  Platinum Plus weeks are New Years, Christmas and Chinese New Years (last week in January).  I'll just give you 7 day point levels.
> 
> Ko'Olina Platinum:
> Studio Suite- 22,300
> 1 bedroom - 32,100
> 2 bedroom - 48,900
> 
> Ko'Olina Platinum-Plus:
> Studio Suite- 26,800
> 1 bedroom - 38,500
> 2 bedroom - 58,900
> The interesting thing about Ko'Olina is they do not guarantee an ocean view.  You can choose with Waiohai.
> 
> Waiohai Platinum:
> 2 bedroom only - OV - 55,800 and Island View 48,700
> 
> Waiohai Platinum-Plus:
> 2 bedroom only - OV - 67,600 and Island View 58,700
> 
> Vegas Platinum:
> Studio Suite - 17,500
> 1 bedroom - 24,900
> 2 bedroom - 38,000
> 
> Vegas Platinum-Plus:
> Studio Suite - 24,900
> 1 bedroom - 35,600
> 2 bedroom - 54,400
> 
> Phuket Beach Clubhas only 2 bedroom units.
> Gold - 20,700
> Platinum - 32,700
> Platinum Plus - 60,300
> 
> Mai Khao Beach - 2 bedroom only.  Some with plunge pools.
> Gold - 20,700 - plunge pool - 23,900
> Platinum - 32,700 - plunge pool - 37,500
> Platinum Plus - 60,300 - plunge pool - 69,300
> 
> The plunge pools are exactly that.  Very small and probably better than nothing.  However, the large pools are not far from the plunge pools outside of your rooms.  Maybe a water feature with gold fish may have been more enjoyable - not sure.
> 
> The 22 club connection hotels run between 2,500 (Courtyard level) up to 4,000 (Ritz Carlton) Club points per night.  3 in Austrailia.  5 in China.  One in Indonesia.  3 in Japan.  1 in Malaysia, South Korea, Thailand and Vietnam (4 total in these).  All Marriotts (Courtyard through Ritz-Carlton) except for the one in Indonesia - Ayana Resort and Spa in Bali.
> 
> If you buy direct from Marriott - you get something called Express Breaks.  Basically you can stay for .027 x the nightly point level for up to 3 nights.  Around $63 a night at Phuket Beach Club (2 bdrm) if you stay on a Mon, Tues, Wed or Thurs.
> 
> The demand levels or point levels are definitely set up for Asians.  Here in Thailand, I would think people would get more excited about Las Vegas than Hawaii.  In my mind, Hawaii climates and beauty are already here, if not better, in Thailand.
> 
> Any questions, please let me know.


----------



## mjm1

Asia 2000, thanks for the info.  What are the points for Palm Desert I, Palm Desert II, and Shadow Ridge?


----------



## Asia2000

*MVC-AP II Club Point Requirements*

I forgot to post, perhaps the most important material.  The chart for trading into II/MVCI.  The Marriott presentation book uses Low, Moderate and High.  The Marriott rep wrote Gold, Platinum and Platinum Plus next to each of these headings because all of the direct Asia resorts use Gold, Platinum and Plat +.  Perhaps Platinum is a blend of Platinum and Silver (or in some cases red and white).

GOLD or Low (TDI 50-80):
Studio 10,000, 1bdrm 15,000, 2bdrm 23,000, 3bdrm 32,500
PLATINUM or Moderate (TDI 80-120) 
Studio 15,000, 1bdrm 23,000, 2bdrm 32,500, 3bdrm 45,000
PLATINUM PLUS or High (TDI 120-150+)
Studio 27,500, 1bdrm 42,500, 2bdrm 60,000, 3 bdrm 85,000

Keep in mind the Platinum Plus is probably for Christmas, New Years and Chinese New Years for the Asian people.  Anyone who knows the II TDI index best will be able to add to this post.


----------



## Asia2000

All Flexchanges, regardless of unit size, are 10,000 points.  These can be booked out 59 days or less with any II TDI.


----------



## Dean

Asia2000 said:


> I forgot to post, perhaps the most important material.  The chart for trading into II/MVCI.  The Marriott presentation book uses Low, Moderate and High.  The Marriott rep wrote Gold, Platinum and Platinum Plus next to each of these headings because all of the direct Asia resorts use Gold, Platinum and Plat +.  Perhaps Platinum is a blend of Platinum and Silver (or in some cases red and white).
> 
> GOLD or Low (TDI 50-80):
> Studio 10,000, 1bdrm 15,000, 2bdrm 23,000, 3bdrm 32,500
> PLATINUM or Moderate (TDI 80-120)
> Studio 15,000, 1bdrm 23,000, 2bdrm 32,500, 3bdrm 45,000
> PLATINUM PLUS or High (TDI 120-150+)
> Studio 27,500, 1bdrm 42,500, 2bdrm 60,000, 3 bdrm 85,000
> 
> Keep in mind the Platinum Plus is probably for Christmas, New Years and Chinese New Years for the Asian people.  Anyone who knows the II TDI index best will be able to add to this post.


This appears c/w the system that DVC used with II other than the points are higher.  Extrapolating from that experience, I would guess that red time and high demand is the highest level, that red time but not high demand is the Moderate level and that anything not red time is the lowest.  That still means that II exchanges are over priced for trading with II with this system, IMO.


----------



## davidvel

Any new "system/program" will simply be another incentive/trading program, nothing to do with reservation rights. :deadhorse:


----------



## PerryM

*The Wizards of smart...*



davidvel said:


> Any new "system/program" will simply be another incentive/trading program, nothing to do with reservation rights. :deadhorse:



Correct - Point well taken!

Imagine Marriott stopped developing for 5 years - the existing developer inventory is gone and thus you have nothing new to sell - no big deal!

Marriott's minions will be busy at work selling YOUR weeks - they realized that they can make Platinum out of Bronze by concocting a way to use your reservations to sell old, recycled weeks that they bought for peanuts because of the new scheme they unleashed on their owners killed the resale market.

From a stockholders' perspective this is what MBA wizards are supposed to do.

From the owners' perspective this will just suck....


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Correct - Point well taken!
> 
> Imagine Marriott stopped developing for 5 years - the existing developer inventory is gone and thus you have nothing new to sell - no big deal!
> 
> Marriott's minions will be busy at work selling YOUR weeks - they realized that they can make Platinum out of Bronze by concocting a way to use your reservations to sell old, recycled weeks that they bought for peanuts because of the new scheme they unleashed on their owners killed the resale market.
> 
> From a stockholders' perspective this is what MBA wizards are supposed to do.
> 
> From the owners' perspective this will just suck....



It must be crowded inside your head with all those thoughts and paranoia's whizzing around. 

If this was anything new under the sun, you might get a little traction. But the fact is these types of systems have been around for many years now and the sky hasn't fallen on any of the owners in any of those systems as far as I can tell. 

Wyndham has a points based system
Hilton has a points based system
Starwood has a points based system,
Festiva has a points based system
Shell has a points based system
DRI has a points based trust ownership system with deeded weeks in a points based membership and deeded weeks not in the system at all
Disney has a trust based ownership with deeded weeks.

The only system I see complaints about right now is Starwood and that's mainly concerning their MF"s.

I think the evidence heavily favors this being no big deal to owners vs the sky falling on Mariott. This is NOT anything new to the timeshare world. In fact, Marriott may be one of the last major chains to embrace a points based internal system. IMHO, Marriott has been losing it's competitive edge by not offering some sort of internal system that's better than there Marriott preference through Interval. Marriott weeks, at this time, are readily available to anyone with a resort week that has half decent exchange power. I've seen it posted before, maybe even by you, why own an expensive Marriott week when you can buy cheap and trade in. 

In the end, you're rantings are like spitting into the wind. It's NOT going to affect what Marroitt is or is not going to do.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> It must be crowded inside your head with all those thoughts and paranoia's whizzing around.
> 
> If this was anything new under the sun, you might get a little traction. But the fact is these types of systems have been around for many years now and the sky hasn't fallen on any of the owners in any of those systems as far as I can tell.
> 
> Wyndham has a points based system
> Hilton has a points based system
> Starwood has a points based system,
> Festiva has a points based system
> Shell has a points based system
> DRI has a points based trust ownership system with deeded weeks in a points based membership and deeded weeks not in the system at all
> Disney has a trust based ownership with deeded weeks.
> 
> The only system I see complaints about right now is Starwood and that's mainly concerning their MF"s.
> 
> I think the evidence heavily favors this being no big deal to owners vs the sky falling on Mariott. This is NOT anything new to the timeshare world. In fact, Marriott may be one of the last major chains to embrace a points based internal system. IMHO, Marriott has been losing it's competitive edge by not offering some sort of internal system that's better than there Marriott preference through Interval. Marriott weeks, at this time, are readily available to anyone with a resort week that has half decent exchange power. I've seen it posted before, maybe even by you, why own an expensive Marriott week when you can buy cheap and trade in.
> 
> In the end, you're rantings are like spitting into the wind. It's NOT going to affect what Marroitt is or is not going to do.



I've come to appreciate, over the years, the more emotional the response to my posts the more I've made the Point I wanted to make.

Thanks...


----------



## m61376

Asia2000 said:


> I forgot to post, perhaps the most important material.  The chart for trading into II/MVCI.  The Marriott presentation book uses Low, Moderate and High.  The Marriott rep wrote Gold, Platinum and Platinum Plus next to each of these headings because all of the direct Asia resorts use Gold, Platinum and Plat +.  Perhaps Platinum is a blend of Platinum and Silver (or in some cases red and white).
> 
> GOLD or Low (TDI 50-80):
> Studio 10,000, 1bdrm 15,000, 2bdrm 23,000, 3bdrm 32,500
> PLATINUM or Moderate (TDI 80-120)
> Studio 15,000, 1bdrm 23,000, 2bdrm 32,500, 3bdrm 45,000
> PLATINUM PLUS or High (TDI 120-150+)
> Studio 27,500, 1bdrm 42,500, 2bdrm 60,000, 3 bdrm 85,000
> 
> Keep in mind the Platinum Plus is probably for Christmas, New Years and Chinese New Years for the Asian people.  Anyone who knows the II TDI index best will be able to add to this post.



For the Caribbean, weeks 52 and then weeks 1-9 with the exception of week 4 are all in the TDI range of 120-150. So a 2BR exchange would "cost" the points of 1.5-2 weeks of other Platinum weeks even.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I've come to appreciate, over the years, the more emotional the response to my posts the more I've made the Point I wanted to make.
> 
> Thanks...



I hate to tell you this but, the only point you've made is, you have a gold week you puchased resale primarily to trade up into a system and brag about the value you were getting. Now comes a rumor that maybe the gravy train is coming to an end you you're looking for any scapegoat to blame for your potential bad position. 

You're scared, you're making stuff up and it's showing. If you were buying weeks stircly to use and exchange on occasion, you wouldn't be in this spot. Instead I believe you've been playing the system buying cheap units to use to get more expensive units, then sitting back patting yourself on the back for your shrewd businessmanship. What else can you say other than to complain that Marriott is screwing you over and then trying to get everyone else to see that Marriott is screwing everyone over. I guess the only other thing you could say is opps. 

When you treat timeshare as ANYTHING more than an investment in how you vacation, then you're taking huge chances. I'm sitting here with two Marriott weeks and I'm not sweating it. I bought my timeshares to use and exchange occasionally. One week is a lowelyt silver season and the other a platinum season in Vegas, which is considered overbuilt. So long as I can use my purchase for it's intended use.....that is to take vacations at those resorts.....then I'm not worried. 

Now, if I'd have bought those weeks on the cheap with the intention of always trading up, sure, I'd be like you and be worried about my investement. But that's you're mistake IMHO. You bought as an investment other than to vacation in the season you own at the resort you own. That's YOUR tuff luck but, it doesn't affect the fact that we'll all have choices if there is a change made. 

Personally, I wish you'd stop with the scare tactics. It's not constructive. At this point, none of us know a thing about what might be offered. The only one promoting scare tactics is you and maybe a few rogue salesmen. Marriott has been rather quite on the subject.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> I hate to tell you this but, the only point you've made is, you have a gold week you puchased resale primarily to trade up into a system and brag about the value you were getting. Now comes a rumor that maybe the gravy train is coming to an end you you're looking for any scapegoat to blame for your potential bad position.
> 
> You're scared, you're making stuff up and it's showing. If you were buying weeks stircly to use and exchange on occasion, you wouldn't be in this spot. Instead I believe you've been playing the system buying cheap units to use to get more expensive units, then sitting back patting yourself on the back for your shrewd businessmanship. What else can you say other than to complain that Marriott is screwing you over and then trying to get everyone else to see that Marriott is screwing everyone over. I guess the only other thing you could say is opps.
> 
> When you treat timeshare as ANYTHING more than an investment in how you vacation, then you're taking huge chances. I'm sitting here with two Marriott weeks and I'm not sweating it. I bought my timeshares to use and exchange occasionally. One week is a lowelyt silver season and the other a platinum season in Vegas, which is considered overbuilt. So long as I can use my purchase for it's intended use.....that is to take vacations at those resorts.....then I'm not worried.
> 
> Now, if I'd have bought those weeks on the cheap with the intention of always trading up, sure, I'd be like you and be worried about my investement. But that's you're mistake IMHO. You bought as an investment other than to vacation in the season you own at the resort you own. That's YOUR tuff luck but, it doesn't affect the fact that we'll all have choices if there is a change made.
> 
> Personally, I wish you'd stop with the scare tactics. It's not constructive. At this point, none of us know a thing about what might be offered. The only one promoting scare tactics is you and maybe a few rogue salesmen. Marriott has been rather quite on the subject.



My goodness I'm better than I thought I was....


----------



## GregT

Asia2000 said:


> Ko'Olina Platinum:
> Studio Suite- 22,300
> 1 bedroom - 32,100
> 2 bedroom - 48,900
> 
> Ko'Olina Platinum-Plus:
> Studio Suite- 26,800
> 1 bedroom - 38,500
> 2 bedroom - 58,900
> 
> The interesting thing about Ko'Olina is they do not guarantee an ocean view.  You can choose with Waiohai.



I think that it is very interesting that they don't guarantee on ocean view for the Asia Points program -- HGVC permits you to use more points to get a Premier or Plus unit that has a superior view, but this is one thing I will watch for in a new program, to see if you can get to the view you want.

Asia, thanks for posting this.


----------



## MOXJO7282

If the way Marriott handled the Gift of Time is any indication I believe Marriott will continue to do the right thing by their owners. 

There were hundreds of prime weeks that Marriott could have cherry-picked from and rented at a premium but they did the right thing and released them at cost to its most valued owners. I picked up more than a few that really adds to the value of my ownership.

Marriott won't screw over its clientele IMHO. 

We'll see who eat their words, us pro-Marriott guys or the Perrys of the world. 

I know one thing, those that have been constantly pontificating will have a big meal.


----------



## aka Julie

Deleted.  Wrong threat.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> My goodness I'm better than I thought I was....



Yes, you're pretty good. 

Lest someone get the wrong impression, I simply enjoy a spirited debate. Perry's been around a long time and, fortunately for me, he usually takes the opposing side of any opinion that I hold. It's always good to hear opposing views and, while my views differ from Perry's, it doesn't mean that I don't read his posts and think about them. 

But I still think he's over thinking this thing and over reacting.......for now.


----------



## dougp26364

In the FWIW area. I'm at a Marriott resort right now. I didn't take the sales tour because I didn't figure that the salesmen will know any more than any of us on the subject at this time. Even if they did, I don't think they'd be able to share it with me at the risk of getting into hot water. 

However, I think we may be focusing in on the wrong program if our focus is on the AP program. Marriott runs an adds for their timeshares on the TV (yes I actually watch them and pay attention). One thing that has caught my attention is the Ritz-Carlton Destination Club infomercial. Towards the end, it states ownership can be choosen at one home resort or, can be choosen in the club. 

This has made me go hmmmmm. Fletch has stated there will be no home resort in the new system To me this spells trust ownership, RTU ownership or Destination Club. So I'm wondering if the new program will be based more along the lines of the RC destination club rather than the AP program? Might there be an option to have a home resort but still have points for when one wants to exchange? If so, that sounds like an intriguing opportunity to me and would be something that would hold my initial attention.

Hopefully Marriott will put us our of a misery next month and actually give us some details that we can sink our teeth into, digest it and figure out the pro's and con's.


----------



## m61376

Doug- The only reason why I am doubtful about that is that the Ritz program has not been a success, from what I've heard anyway. I had been told that they were at one point considering that as a model, but the less than stellar response for that program is what fueled the delay in this one.

I agree with Joe in that, heretofore, Marriott has been a great company to deal with. I can only hope as it tries to make a program that will benefit the company and future customers that it doesn't create a booking quagmire for its current owners, as well as maintaining the value that current owners are accustomed to. Looking at a potential program from an outside perspective, I can see the attractiveness of a purely points based program- but what you need for how you want to travel and add on whatever you need at a future time if you wish. Reserve the size you want for as long as you want to stay. And pay annual fees commensurate only with what you own (less points means lower fees).

IF it was a brand new program I could see how that would be an attractive product. The issue here is that it is not a new program, many owners bought weeks to primarily use at their home resort and, while they may opt to trade on occasion, want to book what and when they bought for in the first place (home resort priority) and, let's face it, old habits are hard to break. The expectations of some for consistent upgrades is not what the system was intended to provide for in the first place, and I can understand that a new program will strive for more equity. 

I think one of the big issues is how "equity" is defined. How will points be assigned and how will they be assigned to future resorts? Will timeshare points essentially undergo a devaluation as newer resorts come on board? Will people be misled into believing that they can easily reserve prime weeks, such that, in essence, Platinum weeks are sold over and over again (perhaps not literally, but with people buying with that illusion, as Perry contends)? How will MF's be affected, and how will they be balanced between owners retaining their weeks based ownership and those in the new system? How will inventory and reservations be apportioned? I think these are the questions that we will need to see answered before deciding whether any new system holds merit.

I can say that I do not like many of the features of the Asia Pacific program. Many Plat. week owners don't have enough points for Plat. like for like (size/length of stay) elsewhere. Even Hawaii weeks owners could not make a like for like exchange in II for a Caribbean week during prime winter months, because the points assigned for trading into high TDI weeks are just too high. And we will still need II for life outside of Marriott. 

I agree that the next month should be interesting.


----------



## jin

m61376 said:


> Doug- The only reason why I am doubtful about that is that the Ritz program has not been a success, from what I've heard anyway. I had been told that they were at one point considering that as a model, but the less than stellar response for that program is what fueled the delay in this one.
> 
> I agree with Joe in that, heretofore, Marriott has been a great company to deal with. I can only hope as it tries to make a program that will benefit the company and future customers that it doesn't create a booking quagmire for its current owners, as well as maintaining the value that current owners are accustomed to. Looking at a potential program from an outside perspective, I can see the attractiveness of a purely points based program- but what you need for how you want to travel and add on whatever you need at a future time if you wish. Reserve the size you want for as long as you want to stay. And pay annual fees commensurate only with what you own (less points means lower fees).
> 
> IF it was a brand new program I could see how that would be an attractive product. The issue here is that it is not a new program, many owners bought weeks to primarily use at their home resort and, while they may opt to trade on occasion, want to book what and when they bought for in the first place (home resort priority) and, let's face it, old habits are hard to break. The expectations of some for consistent upgrades is not what the system was intended to provide for in the first place, and I can understand that a new program will strive for more equity.
> 
> I think one of the big issues is how "equity" is defined. How will points be assigned and how will they be assigned to future resorts? Will timeshare points essentially undergo a devaluation as newer resorts come on board? Will people be misled into believing that they can easily reserve prime weeks, such that, in essence, Platinum weeks are sold over and over again (perhaps not literally, but with people buying with that illusion, as Perry contends)? How will MF's be affected, and how will they be balanced between owners retaining their weeks based ownership and those in the new system? How will inventory and reservations be apportioned? I think these are the questions that we will need to see answered before deciding whether any new system holds merit.
> 
> I can say that I do not like many of the features of the Asia Pacific program. Many Plat. week owners don't have enough points for Plat. like for like (size/length of stay) elsewhere. Even Hawaii weeks owners could not make a like for like exchange in II for a Caribbean week during prime winter months, because the points assigned for trading into high TDI weeks are just too high. And we will still need II for life outside of Marriott.
> 
> I agree that the next month should be interesting.



I own both Marriott and HGVC weeks.  Personally, I think the Hilton System of points is THE BEST and most fair program out there, bar none.  I am surprised there has not been more discussion on this system, since it really works, and is well accepted by members.  I am hoping that Marriott opts to implement their points program around the HGVC business model, which has a lot of happy owners, including resale owners!!  Pete


----------



## Dean

davidvel said:


> Any new "system/program" will simply be another incentive/trading program, nothing to do with reservation rights. :deadhorse:


Maybe, I think it depends on how they implement it but not necessarily so.  Lets take Grande Ocean Platinum for example.  Say 50% of the owners convert but technically the weeks converted (on the deed) are the lower weeks within the season.  Does Marriott move deeded week by deeded week or do they simply open up 50 % of each week during the season.  So after you've answered the question of who can reserved X units during a given week then you have the question of HOW.  Assuming the current system of 12/13 and a 12 month window on points, the weeks owners as a group will be able to reserve earlier than the points owners.  Even if the systems run separate inventory, which they really should, the question of which units/weeks are included in the points vs weeks side is very critical and likely will be somewhat subjective.  It's unrealistic to assume that the current members will be status quo from a reservation standpoint and also unrealistic that both systems will be 100% "fair" for every situation.


----------



## PerryM

*2 weeks and counting?*

To me, this has been a hoot for many months now - I've presented my thoughts on what Marriott might do and why.  Others disagree and since we're all guessing here anyway it really doesn't matter until the day of implementation.

So I look forward to June and what Marriott might do.

However, on the day of release we will all have to make some important decisions and my guess is the pressure to convert will be eye-watering.

If I've caused some unsettling feelings well that's why I posted; folks will have to make quick decisions if they want better deals - my guess.

Who knows, maybe Marriott read some of our posts and we had a little do say on their decisions...


----------



## m61376

jin said:


> I own both Marriott and HGVC weeks.  Personally, I think the Hilton System of points is THE BEST and most fair program out there, bar none.  I am surprised there has not been more discussion on this system, since it really works, and is well accepted by members.  I am hoping that Marriott opts to implement their points program around the HGVC business model, which has a lot of happy owners, including resale owners!!  Pete



I have heard a lot of positive comments about their program, but to be honest I am not so sure how it works. Could you summarize how the program works and point out limitations (if any)?

I think the more well versed we are on the different points programs and how the programs work, in general, the better we will be able to make informed decisions if/when Marriott introduces one.


----------



## jin

m61376 said:


> I have heard a lot of positive comments about their program, but to be honest I am not so sure how it works. Could you summarize how the program works and point out limitations (if any)?
> 
> I think the more well versed we are on the different points programs and how the programs work, in general, the better we will be able to make informed decisions if/when Marriott introduces one.



Most units in the same season get the same # of pts regardless of location (ex 7000 hgvc pts for a 2br platinum in Orlando OR Hawaii, 4800 for a 1br, regardless of location.)  For Gold or silver season you get lesser points.  The interesting feature is that everyone at a particular resort with the same number of Bedrooms pays the same M.F. regardless of season. Thus a 3 Br plat will pay the same m.f. as a 3br silver, but get twice the number of points.  Because of this, platinum points sell for a premium versus lower seasons.  On the other hand, You can often buy a gold or silver for very little versus a platinum, and it often takes a long time before you are behind where you would have been had you bought platinum.  Hence there is actually a market for all seasons.  With your points, the advantage of owning at say Hawaii, is you can book 12mos in advance, versus 9 mos for non-owners -- hence, the advantage to own at a particular resort.  None-the-less, If you can plan 9 mos in advance, you can get pretty much any resort you want.  Also you can book 3 or more nights, instead of fixed blocks of 7.  For inventory that is not traded for, it goes into "open season" 30 days prior to arrival date where you only need to book 2 nights or more, and can pay very low fixed rates to stay at great resorts.  For each year of points, you have 3 yrs to use those actual points at HGVC, RCI, or convert to Hilton Honor points (which NEVER expire) at a 25:1 HH pts per hgvc point (resale owners INCLUDED).  You can also borrow points from the following yr if you need to. There are a lot more nuances, but these are the basics.  Resale prices have not fallen much since since Hilton is "resale friendly", and still exercises rofr (although at a lower amount than in better economies).  Quality wise, the resorts are pretty much equal to Marriott as a whole in my opinion.  Pete


----------



## cruisin

The best part, is they could build anywhere and sell the promise of Aruba and Hawaii at New Years to every prospective owner. Don't ever underestimate the fact that getting rid of deeds allows them to sell week 52 at every resort to every owner forever. 

If they roll out a pure points based system, it will be extremely easy for us to see what their plan is. It just seems unrealistic for them not to take the easiest most profitable path?


----------



## Asia2000

*Asia Pacific Program*



m61376 said:


> Doug- The only reason why I am doubtful about that is that the Ritz program has not been a success, from what I've heard anyway. I had been told that they were at one point considering that as a model, but the less than stellar response for that program is what fueled the delay in this one.
> 
> I can say that I do not like many of the features of the Asia Pacific program. Many Plat. week owners don't have enough points for Plat. like for like (size/length of stay) elsewhere. Even Hawaii weeks owners could not make a like for like exchange in II for a Caribbean week during prime winter months, because the points assigned for trading into high TDI weeks are just too high. And we will still need II for life outside of Marriott.
> 
> I agree that the next month should be interesting.



m,

Along the lines of your writing, in my opinion it does not appear that the Asia Pacific program is very successful either.  I know Marriott had a huge write down on their last earnings report for Asia.  The resort that was really built to host the AP program, Mai Khao Beach VC, appears to have plenty of vacancy.  It is a beautiful property, but it is not beachfront like the brand new Renaissance just down the street is.  Instead of ocean, you overlook the Anatara Phuket resort which is a 50/50 venture Marriott has itself in (very interesting property if you have time to look at it online).  Marriott Vacation Club actually has their offices in the hotel building of Mai Khao Beach.  The MVC Bangkok Empire Place is also barren (before the conflicts here).  The Empire Place is a points or II only destination - no deeds sold on it.  When we visited Empire Place a while back, it was a ghost town. 

Another point which can gauge the success of the AP program is resales.  Resales are very few (many timeshare brokers have never heard or seen of the program), which either tells me:
1.  They just have not sold that many programs.
2.  People who buy, like them and do not sell.
3.  People who buy, do not want to lose face by selling it for a big discount.

I just have a feeling that compared to deeded weeks, the sales are quite soft.  It could be a different story in a more "spend happy" environment like the USA.  However, Americans will be more apt to compare the program to buying a deeded week on Ebay.  Maybe Marriott will go back to exercising the FROR?


----------



## dougp26364

cruisin said:


> The best part, is they could build anywhere and sell the promise of Aruba and Hawaii at New Years to every prospective owner. Don't ever underestimate the fact that getting rid of deeds allows them to sell week 52 at every resort to every owner forever.
> 
> If they roll out a pure points based system, it will be extremely easy for us to see what their plan is. It just seems unrealistic for them not to take the easiest most profitable path?



This is one of Perry's stronger points as well and one that I can't argue with. If you've ever attended a HGVC sales presentation in Vegas, you'll hear the salesman telling his manger that so-and-so just bought and they're going to Hawaii. HGVC does a great job of selling Hawaii to every prospect that walks through the door. The thing is, it's not that difficult with HGVC's system to get a week......or just a few day......in Hawaii. Their system really works very well. 

The trick with any points based system is to realize that there is almost always "some" availabity at every resort. In our case with HGVC and Hawaii, I wanted a 2 bedroom ocean front unit and had the points to pay for it, even though we only owned a standard 2 bedroom unit. The problem was there wasn't an ocean front unit of any size available for the timeframe when we wanted to go to Hawaii. I had my choice of a 1 bedroom ocean view or a 2 bedroom city view. We choose the 1 bedroom ocean view.

HGVC controls it's inventory much better than Marriott currently controls it's inventory. There is frequently some availability at any resort once the home resort advantage period is over. It's not impossible to get ski weeks or Hawaiian weeks no matter where you own. With Marriott you may have to plan and pray to get your exchange. We spend a lot of time asking questions like, "Will a winter Branson week pull a winter week in Aruba?" In a points based system, the only question is concerning availabilty. Yes you can trade that winter Branson week for a winter Aruba week but, you may have to save points from the current year to the next and then you might also have to borrow points from the next year (using 3 years worth of points) to have enough points to make the exchange. Then you have to hope that there are weeks available when you're allowed to book. So the question comes down to owner occupancy.

We can speculate what availability will be like all day long. We won't really know until a few years down the line. It will take going through a few seasons to see how it really shakes out as far as members being able to get the trades they want.

I own in two different points based systems. I am always amazed at the availability I see so long as the resorts I'm looking at are managed by the company I own with and are not just affiliated with the program (managed by another company and offering limited availability to program members). Hawaii is actually a VERY easy trade through both DRI and HGVC, both points based systems. I can see and choose the resort I want. With Marriott, I submitted three different resorts and a one month timeframe, then had to wait and see what got matched. With Marriott as it stands now, I give them options and Interval chooses the match. With HGVC or DRI I shop and choose my own destination from the dates available. Personally, I prefer the points based systems but, I also want home resort advantage for those times when we choose to use our home resort.


----------



## PerryM

*It's all imaginary Marriott...*



Asia2000 said:


> m,
> 
> Along the lines of your writing, in my opinion it does not appear that the Asia Pacific program is very successful either.  I know Marriott had a huge write down on their last earnings report for Asia.  The resort that was really built to host the AP program, Mai Khao Beach VC, appears to have plenty of vacancy.  It is a beautiful property, but it is not beachfront like the brand new Renaissance just down the street is.  Instead of ocean, you overlook the Anatara Phuket resort which is a 50/50 venture Marriott has itself in (very interesting property if you have time to look at it online).  Marriott Vacation Club actually has their offices in the hotel building of Mai Khao Beach.  The MVC Bangkok Empire Place is also barren (before the conflicts here).  The Empire Place is a points or II only destination - no deeds sold on it.  When we visited Empire Place a while back, it was a ghost town.
> 
> Another point which can gauge the success of the AP program is resales.  Resales are very few (many timeshare brokers have never heard or seen of the program), which either tells me:
> 1.  They just have not sold that many programs.
> 2.  People who buy, like them and do not sell.
> 3.  People who buy, do not want to lose face by selling it for a big discount.
> 
> *I just have a feeling that compared to deeded weeks, the sales are quite soft.  It could be a different story in a more "spend happy" environment like the USA.*  However, Americans will be more apt to compare the program to buying a deeded week on Ebay.  Maybe Marriott will go back to exercising the FROR?



After many years of trying to explain the WorldMark program to folks and Marriott program I've come to the conclusion that explaining Imaginary Numbers is probably easier than a Point based system.

Imagine Marriott's task - after years and years of educating 400k+ owners on how their system works and millions and millions of folks on sales tours Marriott must now throw that out the window and explain a Point based system.

Imagine the glazed eyes of owners when Marriott asks for $2,500 (my guess) per week in order to explain this new system.

Imagine the shock of owners, who never get the word, calling in to make a reservation and Marriott wants to know which credit card to charge the $2,500 in order to make that reservation.

Imagine Marriott deciding to do this when real estate is circling the toilet.

Imagine Marriott doing this when credit is super tight.

Imagine when the owners realize that the new Point based exchange system is no better than II; all that money, anxiety, and learning for nothing.

Imagine the stockholder's wondering why this HUGE shift in selling timeshares is scheduled now and 400k+ owners very upset with learning a new system and not wanting to shovel out big bucks.

Imagine Marriott deciding that this is the absolute worst time to do this and just drop the whole idea.......


----------



## MOXJO7282

cruisin said:


> The best part, is they could build anywhere and sell the promise of Aruba and Hawaii at New Years to every prospective owner. Don't ever underestimate the fact that getting rid of deeds allows them to sell week 52 at every resort to every owner forever.
> 
> If they roll out a pure points based system, it will be extremely easy for us to see what their plan is. It just seems unrealistic for them not to take the easiest most profitable path?



I've heard this concern before and the reason I don't buy into it is because how is it any different than when a sales guy in Orlando says buy Orlando and trade to Hawaii or rent it for rack rate. Sales guys are always coming up with some BS, so the promise of Aruba New Years is't much different.


----------



## m61376

Asia2000 said:


> m,
> 
> Along the lines of your writing, in my opinion it does not appear that the Asia Pacific program is very successful either.  I know Marriott had a huge write down on their last earnings report for Asia.  The resort that was really built to host the AP program, Mai Khao Beach VC, appears to have plenty of vacancy.  It is a beautiful property, but it is not beachfront like the brand new Renaissance just down the street is.  Instead of ocean, you overlook the Anatara Phuket resort which is a 50/50 venture Marriott has itself in (very interesting property if you have time to look at it online).  Marriott Vacation Club actually has their offices in the hotel building of Mai Khao Beach.  The MVC Bangkok Empire Place is also barren (before the conflicts here).  The Empire Place is a points or II only destination - no deeds sold on it.  When we visited Empire Place a while back, it was a ghost town.
> 
> Another point which can gauge the success of the AP program is resales.  Resales are very few (many timeshare brokers have never heard or seen of the program), which either tells me:
> 1.  They just have not sold that many programs.
> 2.  People who buy, like them and do not sell.
> 3.  People who buy, do not want to lose face by selling it for a big discount.
> 
> I just have a feeling that compared to deeded weeks, the sales are quite soft.  It could be a different story in a more "spend happy" environment like the USA.  However, Americans will be more apt to compare the program to buying a deeded week on Ebay.  Maybe Marriott will go back to exercising the FROR?



Thanks Asia. Actually, you confirmed what I thought would be the case but since I hadn't heard any real info. on it I didn't want to speculate. I know that looking at the system and the point value assignments, with the large disparities, I couldn't imagine trading my weeks into it for free, let alone paying 5K a pop. 

The HGVC program outlined above seems like a user friendly program, and their MF structure would carry-over nicely into a transformed Marriott program, but I think there would be a lot of very angry owners at higher end resorts who would balk at getting the same or similar point allotment as a Plat. Orlando owner, for example. Of course, their extra cost would be to ensure home resort priority, like it always was. 

I have to agree with Pete, though, that the HGVC program has some very nice features, and I could foresee it being an easy transition in many respects. What I am not so sure of is that it will help Marriott sell its overpriced weeks at Marco, for example, which purely a points system with no home resort would. I understand they made a misjudgment there and took a hit, but I hope wanting to sell those weeks at a profit doesn't cloud their judgment as they develop an overall system. 

The more I mull over the HGVC system, the more akin to the concept of Platinum weeks trading for other Plat. weeks (as Marriott was mostly sold) it seems, and gives the advantage of more time if trading Plat. for lower seasons, for example. It stabilizes the equity of trades for like seasons across the board, and gives respective value up or down for trading across seasons, but mostly doesn't distinguish between different properties. I am not sure how owners of the high end weeks would view this.

I am intrigued, though, that HGVC, like DVC, is a user friendly program and retains resale value, despite not denigrating resale buyers to second class status. I think that alone says a lot for their program.


----------



## m61376

MOXJO7282 said:


> I've heard this concern before and the reason I don't buy into it is because how is it any different than when a sales guy in Orlando says buy Orlando and trade to Hawaii or rent it for rack rate. Sales guys are always coming up with some BS, so the promise of Aruba New Years is't much different.



I think the difference is that currently only unscrupulous salespeople make such claims and most paint a picture of being able to trade into other weeks, but the buyers recognize that they are trades subject to availability (at least that's what I came away with from our first tour, before Tug). In a points based system people are told they can book that New Year's week in Aruba or ski week, etc.; being able to directly book a week takes away the "trading" factor and seems much more certain. I think only the very savvy buyer would be concerned with availability- they will just think it terms of booking a week like they do now for a hotel.


----------



## Dean

cruisin said:


> The best part, is they could build anywhere and sell the promise of Aruba and Hawaii at New Years to every prospective owner. Don't ever underestimate the fact that getting rid of deeds allows them to sell week 52 at every resort to every owner forever.
> 
> If they roll out a pure points based system, it will be extremely easy for us to see what their plan is. It just seems unrealistic for them not to take the easiest most profitable path?


If there's no home resort priority it really wouldn't matter where you owned.  Other timeshares without a home resort priority certainly do this.  However, that's not necessarily a problem unto itself other than the discussion of the plusses and minuses of whether to have a home resort priority or even a season or unit size/view priority within a given resort.  

Marriott can't get away from the idea they'll have to run two systems side by side but they can design ways to make them as seamless and fair as possible (nothing is perfect).  They do have to differentiate how to manage the maint fees and how to balance the points given for different seasons and different resorts.  From a fees standpoint for existing resorts they likely will have to do the maint fees based on the underlying week rather than the points but for new resorts they could do either.  I doubt they'll give everyone almost the same points for a given week as was suggested as a possibility but they should have some consistency related to location, quality, unit size and demand.  I think HGVG has a group of older resorts that are below the standards of the Marriott system and that has affected their decisions on their points structure to a degree not that much different than the old Fairfield system or Bluegreen.


----------



## PerryM

*>20 means Weasels at work!*



Dean said:


> If there's no home resort priority it really wouldn't matter where you owned.  Other timeshares without a home resort priority certainly do this.  However, that's not necessarily a problem unto itself other than the discussion of the plusses and minuses of whether to have a home resort priority or even a season or unit size/view priority within a given resort.
> 
> Marriott can't get away from the idea they'll have to run two systems side by side but they can design ways to make them as seamless and fair as possible (nothing is perfect).  They do have to differentiate how to manage the maint fees and how to balance the points given for different seasons and different resorts.  From a fees standpoint for existing resorts they likely will have to do the maint fees based on the underlying week rather than the points but for new resorts they could do either.  *I doubt they'll give everyone almost the same points for a given week as was suggested as a possibility but they should have some consistency related to location, quality, unit size and demand.*  I think HGVG has a group of older resorts that are below the standards of the Marriott system and that has affected their decisions on their points structure to a degree not that much different than the old Fairfield system or Bluegreen.



If Marriott doesn't want a lynch mob outside their corporate HQ they had better adopt the following seasons:


Holiday
High demand
Medium demand
Low demand

4, count 'em 4, point levels per villa SYSTEM WIDE.

To get an example of a well run Point exchange system which deals with unbelievable differences in villas, click the following:


Resort2Resort.com
Points Calendar for a typical villa
Here's a Maui resort

That's it, for their entire system which is as large as Marriott in total villas.

Each villa size, Studio, 1BR,2BR,3BR uses the same Point structure - system wide.  System wide there are just 16 numbers to memorize.  (4 seasons each with 4 size configurations)

Simple to memorize and understand and it handles tens of thousands of condo owners.

Marriott now has 5 seasons Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Platinum Plus (Holiday) so I can see 5 seasons times 4 villa sizes, or 20 numbers SYSTEM WIDE at the max.

The more Marriott diverges from those 20 numbers the more the sales weasels are involved....


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## mtnpilot

*What does the new Marriott resort say about points?*

So, I see that Marriott is rolling out another resort, Kauai Lagoons.  Looks like a prime property, and looking at the promotional materials, the exchange options are exactly as today.

So that begs the question...  Why would Marriott introduce a brand new resort (with the "old" exchange system) just a month before rolling out a radically new points-based exchange system?  Would it not make sense to delay the introduction of a new resort and align it with points?

This new resort leads me to believe that June will come and go with no change at all....

Mike


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## BocaBum99

mtnpilot said:


> So, I see that Marriott is rolling out another resort, Kauai Lagoons.  Looks like a prime property, and looking at the promotional materials, the exchange options are exactly as today.
> 
> So that begs the question...  Why would Marriott introduce a brand new resort (with the "old" exchange system) just a month before rolling out a radically new points-based exchange system?  Would it not make sense to delay the introduction of a new resort and align it with points?
> 
> This new resort leads me to believe that June will come and go with no change at all....
> 
> Mike



What it tells you is something that most of us knew.  That the old system and the new system will have to co-exist.

Right now, we are just anxiously awaiting the new program details so that we can pounce on the new opportunities that manifest themselves with the new system.


----------



## Ann in CA

Have read some of this threads posts over the months, but don't have time to read the rest now, so sorry if this repeats any info posted.  We were at Desert Springs Villas I from May 3-10.  We did attend an owner presentation at Shadow Ridge, which I said we were attending only to learn about the rumored points program to be introduced in June, and unless I could learn something concrete about it, I would not consider buying anything. 

Of course the big push was to buy a points trader, but our sales rep, who was actually quite personable and not pushy, knew nothing about the points program.  When he realized we really would not consider anything without more info, he called in a supervisor.  She could not tell us much "without the risk of being fired", and she had worked for Marriott for 16 years or so.  She did tell us that they were closing down the sales area for a week this month to train in the new system, and that she was buying two more properties before June as she was excited about the program.  It was really hard to pass up the bonus of almost 400,000 points, but we had made a pact not to buy another Marriott right now, especially developer price, so we regretfully passed up the super duper extras they offered.  

I do not think she was blowing smoke.  And if there really were not a points program in the future, she could have assured us of that, and theoretically have sold us another Marriott.  

Not happpy about it, but I think a change really is coming.  We do have developer weeks, but when Shell talked us into "upgrading" from our week ownership to their points program, we made a big mistake.  Would never do that again.  Ann


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## puckmanfl

Perry...

If MVCI gives the same point value for a 2 bedroom plat. Orlando and a 2 bedroom plat ski week at Park City, then you will see the lynch mob....

The owners at SW or Mountainside paid twice as much for the unit than their Orlando counterpart (retail). The difference is probably greater (resale) as the ski plat weeks have kept some value, while the Orlando resale values resale prices have really bottomed-out...

p.s.  welcome back...


----------



## DanCali

Ann in CA said:


> It was really hard to pass up the bonus of almost 400,000 points, but we had made a pact not to buy another Marriott right now, especially developer price, so we regretfully passed up the super duper extras they offered.



Good for you! No regrets...

I'm sure you would not have gotten the same price your salesperson got on her two additional units with the employe discount.



> When Shell talked us into "upgrading" from our week ownership to their points program, we made a big mistake.  Would never do that again.  Ann



I hope others read this and learn from your mistake. How did Shell "talk you into it". Was it the incentives that sealed the deal or did the product genuinely seem good at first?


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## puckmanfl

Ann...

If your sales rep is going to by two more units because "she is thrilled" about the program, should he/she just wait until the program comes out then buy???  What would be the benefit of buying two units today and then being asked to pay a conversion fee next month???  


p.s.  Just how much extra "coin" to these sales reps have?? They all seem to own 4-5 developer units and are looking to buy more!!!!

Everyone seems concerned that "points" will not allow the "UPTRADE" OF WEAKER UNITS!!! I am concerned that this system will make it harder to do "like for like"  exchanges.  Using DVC as an example, I am sure every point holder will be on the "net" 7 mos. and one second before occupancy of ski weeks...


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> If Marriott doesn't want a lynch mob outside their corporate HQ they had better adopt the following seasons:
> 
> 
> Holiday
> High demand
> Medium demand
> Low demand
> 
> 4, count 'em 4, point levels per villa SYSTEM WIDE.
> 
> To get an example of a well run Point exchange system which deals with unbelievable differences in villas, click the following:
> 
> 
> Resort2Resort.com
> Points Calendar for a typical villa
> Here's a Maui resort
> 
> That's it, for their entire system which is as large as Marriott in total villas.
> 
> Each villa size, Studio, 1BR,2BR,3BR uses the same Point structure - system wide.  System wide there are just 16 numbers to memorize.  (4 seasons each with 4 size configurations)
> 
> Simple to memorize and understand and it handles tens of thousands of condo owners.
> 
> Marriott now has 5 seasons Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Platinum Plus (Holiday) so I can see 5 seasons times 4 villa sizes, or 20 numbers SYSTEM WIDE at the max.
> 
> The more Marriott diverges from those 20 numbers the more the sales weasels are involved....


Overall Perry, I agree with you as your post reflects what I was alluding to.  However, I've seen other systems with changes or potential changes that involved upset people or the threat of the same.  I don't think whether current members being upset per se will carry much weight.  I do agree that there needs to be some differentiation in terms of unit size, resort quality, area demand, season as to how many points are involved.  From posts on this thread they already have that in the existing Asia points options.  I sincerely doubt that we'll see a change to the existing resorts that alters the basic maint fee principles but I do think we will see a fee schedule based on points for a resort new out of the box in points.  However I will predict that not everyone will be happy and some will be VERY upset.  I also predict that any points differences will be an approximation and therefore that some situations will be a far better deal than others even ignoring the maint fee issue.  



puckmanfl said:


> Perry...
> 
> If MVCI gives the same point value for a 2 bedroom plat. Orlando and a 2 bedroom plat ski week at Park City, then you will see the lynch mob....
> 
> The owners at SW or Mountainside paid twice as much for the unit than their Orlando counterpart (retail). The difference is probably greater (resale) as the ski plat weeks have kept some value, while the Orlando resale values resale prices have really bottomed-out...
> 
> p.s.  welcome back...


Better get the torches ready I'd say.  While the points may not be the same I would predict they would not be different enough to use the price paid (even retail) as a guide to the number of points received for a given week.



puckmanfl said:


> Everyone seems concerned that "points" will not allow the "UPTRADE" OF WEAKER UNITS!!! I am concerned that this system will make it harder to do "like for like"  exchanges.  Using DVC as an example, I am sure every point holder will be on the "net" 7 mos. and one second before occupancy of ski weeks...


And that assumes that there is a home resort priority, something that not every points system has.  It also assumes that there are high demand weeks in the system, something not very likely for the present resorts.


----------



## PerryM

*It's war!!!*



puckmanfl said:


> Perry...
> 
> If MVCI gives the same point value for a 2 bedroom plat. Orlando and a 2 bedroom plat ski week at Park City, then you will see the lynch mob....
> 
> The owners at SW or Mountainside paid twice as much for the unit than their Orlando counterpart (retail). The difference is probably greater (resale) as the ski plat weeks have kept some value, while the Orlando resale values resale prices have really bottomed-out...
> 
> p.s.  welcome back...



Marriott has a HUGE problem with the new system - it's 20 years late to the party!

I buy a 2BR Platinum Holiday week 52 at Summit Watch 15 years ago for $18,900 (pre construction) and today it sells for $85,000 - do I get less Points than the newest Marriott owner?

How does my $18,900 unit compare to a new Orlando Platinum 2BR selling for $39,900?

Since Marriott's excuse for this new program is "Internal Marriott Exchanges" then there is going to have to be a lot of accounting for 20 year old purchases - is it "fair" for my $18,900 to exchange for a 2BR new towers unit at Maui for 4th of July, and that fixed week selling for $90,000?

How does II handle all of this?

My guess is that they have LESS than 20 different levels that currently handle ALL Marriott exchanges.  My Gold Summit Watch gets Platinum Plus Holiday weeks in II now with Marriott's blessing.  Just the simple matrix I propose would stop that instantly - why make it even more complex?

Also, if Marriott isn't careful it will have a full fledged war on its hands of resort fighting against resort, owner fighting against owner, and salesrep fighting against salesrep (as to what they push).

Better to start off making ALL Platinum owners equal to all other Platinum owners of unit size.  Same with all the other seasons.

After all, remember all those salesreps pushing their product as superior to other similar units at different Marriott resorts?  Well if it turns out that Platinum is not Platinum system wide then Marriott has a lot of explaining to do.

No matter what, I'm guessing the first lawsuits morphing into class-action lawsuits will be filed the first day and there will be lots of them.  This will be fun to watch....


----------



## puckmanfl

Dean...

I find you to be a voice of reason in all of this...

Please follow my logic.  I currently own 3 EOY Hawaii (2 waiohai/1 Koolina) and 2 (3 bedroom plat GV weeks/Orlando).  If my 3 bedroom Orlando plat will get me as many points as a 3 bedroom Koolina, then I will get those resorts converted to points asap!!!  I would not even consider converting my eoy hawaii's to points as I would not get equal value if a 2 bedroom plat Branson or Orlando has equal value to these....

The interesting side effect of all this is resale value for highly desired "deeded" weeks might actually rise.  The best way to go skiing would be to buy a "resale"  ski deeded week for 40% of retail rather than wait on the net at 7 mos and one second!!!

Why would any "high end" week owner even consider converting, especially if they occupy 80% of the time!!!  The system can't work without the high end units!!!


----------



## jin

Dean said:


> I think HGVG has a group of older resorts that are below the standards of the Marriott system and that has affected their decisions on their points structure to a degree not that much different than the old Fairfield system or Bluegreen.



Dean,  
     I totally disagree with this statement aside from some of the HGVC Affiliates.  The HGVC built resorts are consistently VERY nice and most quite new, and are highly ranked on trip adviser and Tug.  Take a look at HGVC Kingsland on the Big Island, HGVC Waikoloa, Grand Waikikian, HGVC Parc Soleil, HGVC on International Drive, Breckenridge HGVC, Portugal HGVC, HGVC Flamingo or Strip location just to name a few great properties.  I would say Kingsland is probably the 2'nd nicest timeshare I have stayed at (Residence at the Crane  in Barbados #1 which cost me only a bit more than 50% worth of my HGVC week worth of points to trade for on RCI).  I have stayed at the KoOlina Marriott, Grand Vista, Grand Chateau which are all very nice, but certainly not superior to HGVC!  I have also stayed at several nice Westin Properties (Kierland in Scottsdale, Westin Princeville) and some Wyndom properties.  My ranking as a whole in terms of the actual property (not system) is Westin = or >than HGVC = or > Marriott and ALL 3 are superior to Wyndom , Blue-Green, etc.  Hilton's biggest problem is they are too focussed on Hawaii, Vegas, and Orlando, but any of the HGVC built resorts are every bit as nice, and in some cases nicer than Marriott.... Pete


----------



## jin

puckmanfl said:


> Why would any "high end" week owner even consider converting, especially if they occupy 80% of the time!!!  The system can't work without the high end units!!!



Not every "high end week owner wants to go to the same place 80% of the time.   Maybe, premium properties will have no buy in fee, or be lured with other Incentives such as additonal "Bonus Points".  Also don't sell short the flexibilty that a points system gives you.  And with a home resort preference, Hawaiiian owners can still get their Hawaii week when they want it, but will have added flexibilty in the form of longer or shorter stays, and numerous other resorts to trade into and often times use less points.  Pete


----------



## Ann in CA

DanCali said:


> Good for you! No regrets...
> 
> I'm sure you would not have gotten the same price your salesperson got on her two additional units with the employe discount.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope others read this and learn from your mistake. How did Shell "talk you into it". Was it the incentives that sealed the deal or did the product genuinely seem good at first?



It was our first timeshare in the late 1990s.  We had bought a week to trade, a novel idea to us then.  But in the first few years, my husband could often not get away for the entire week, so they pitched us the idea that with points, we could go for just 3 days, or however long he had available.  It ONLY cost $10,000 more.  So we bit. However, the cost of a week in points has gone up in the years, and the one week to trade would have remained the same.  In addition, the annual fees are more because we upgraded.  Of course on our first trade to Summit Watch, we discovered Marriott, and bought at Mountainside. Now we prefer Marriotts, and have lots of Shell points to use for air fare--not a good use for those points as we can buy our own airfare for much less than the value of the points used. (value just in annual fees)


----------



## Ann in CA

puckmanfl said:


> Ann...
> 
> If your sales rep is going to by two more units because "she is thrilled" about the program, should he/she just wait until the program comes out then buy???  What would be the benefit of buying two units today and then being asked to pay a conversion fee next month???
> 
> 
> p.s.  Just how much extra "coin" to these sales reps have?? They all seem to own 4-5 developer units and are looking to buy more!!!!
> 
> Everyone seems concerned that "points" will not allow the "UPTRADE" OF WEAKER UNITS!!! I am concerned that this system will make it harder to do "like for like"  exchanges.  Using DVC as an example, I am sure every point holder will be on the "net" 7 mos. and one second before occupancy of ski weeks...



Apparently current owners will not have any or as much expense in switching over.  I was kind of tuning out by then, but don't think she gave the details, as she was not supposed to tell us anything.  She may or may not have really been purchasing more, but she was a long time employee and some sort of supervisor, not the actual sales rep.


----------



## puckmanfl

Pete....

I agree 100% with the fact that many owners don't occupy at home resort 80% of time.  I am a 80% exchanger (see previous posts)  I am just quoting the "sales dribble" from every resort that states " This (fill in blank) resort has the highest owner occupancy in the system" and "The only way to get in at (Blank) resort is to own here"...

I believe there are more exchangers out there than will admit it!!!  I was at Surf Club during a Plat Plus spring break week this past March.  While on the check in line I inquired loudly "who here is an exchanger????".  The 8 customers in front of me all waved their II certificates... 

I do like flexibility of longer/shorter stays but logic tells me like for like "high end" exchanges will be more difficult.  In the current system there are only certain units that can access others. In the new system, everyone with enough points has access.  Please remember, it only takes one "Tues-Thurs" stay to completely wipe out a week for occupancy by another customer...

puckman


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Dean...
> 
> I find you to be a voice of reason in all of this...
> 
> Please follow my logic.  I currently own 3 EOY Hawaii (2 waiohai/1 Koolina) and 2 (3 bedroom plat GV weeks/Orlando).  If my 3 bedroom Orlando plat will get me as many points as a 3 bedroom Koolina, then I will get those resorts converted to points asap!!!  I would not even consider converting my eoy hawaii's to points as I would not get equal value if a 2 bedroom plat Branson or Orlando has equal value to these....
> 
> The interesting side effect of all this is resale value for highly desired "deeded" weeks might actually rise.  The best way to go skiing would be to buy a "resale"  ski deeded week for 40% of retail rather than wait on the net at 7 mos and one second!!!
> 
> Why would any "high end" week owner even consider converting, especially if they occupy 80% of the time!!!  The system can't work without the high end units!!!


They do have a dilemma and I agree with Perry that they are late to the party.  I would agree that those weaker trading resorts for higher season will likely be the best options to get into the system, the question to me is really how does one get from her to there.  As I said earlier in this thread, Gold and possibly Silver and Platinum as lessor demand resorts are likely to be the best to covert. Why would I want to give up my HH summer weeks unless Marriott really forced me or made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  No only might top weeks at top resorts come out ahead not converted (at least for a few years) but it's likely that trade power might actually increase for some options.



> My guess is that they have LESS than 20 different levels that currently handle ALL Marriott exchanges. My Gold Summit Watch gets Platinum Plus Holiday weeks in II now with Marriott's blessing. Just the simple matrix I propose would stop that instantly - why make it even more complex?


There is really NO reason for II to change anything internally.  They currently have a way to rate (and adjust) the demand and ratings of each week and resort.  Other than the interface to get the weeks from Marriott points to a full week inside II and the costs associated, they really don't need to change anything.  Their current system will account for differences between weeks (they don't deal with Marriott seasons) and resort quality/demand.



jin said:


> Dean,
> I totally disagree with this statement aside from some of the HGVC Affiliates.  The HGVC built resorts are consistently VERY nice and most quite new, and are highly ranked on trip adviser and Tug.  Take a look at HGVC Kingsland on the Big Island, HGVC Waikoloa, Grand Waikikian, HGVC Parc Soleil, HGVC on International Drive, Breckenridge HGVC, Portugal HGVC, HGVC Flamingo or Strip location just to name a few great properties.  I would say Kingsland is probably the 2'nd nicest timeshare I have stayed at (Residence at the Crane  in Barbados #1 which cost me only a bit more than 50% worth of my HGVC week worth of points to trade for on RCI).  I have stayed at the KoOlina Marriott, Grand Vista, Grand Chateau which are all very nice, but certainly not superior to HGVC!  I have also stayed at several nice Westin Properties (Kierland in Scottsdale, Westin Princeville) and some Wyndom properties.  My ranking as a whole in terms of the actual property (not system) is Westin = or >than HGVC = or > Marriott and ALL 3 are superior to Wyndom , Blue-Green, etc.  Hilton's biggest problem is they are too focussed on Hawaii, Vegas, and Orlando, but any of the HGVC built resorts are every bit as nice, and in some cases nicer than Marriott.... Pete


It was the affiliates I was referring to.  No doubt that many of their resorts are top notch.


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Pete....
> 
> I agree 100% with the fact that many owners don't occupy at home resort 80% of time.  I am a 80% exchanger (see previous posts)  I am just quoting the "sales dribble" from every resort that states " This (fill in blank) resort has the highest owner occupancy in the system" and "The only way to get in at (Blank) resort is to own here"...
> 
> I believe there are more exchangers out there than will admit it!!!  I was at Surf Club during a Plat Plus spring break week this past March.  While on the check in line I inquired loudly "who here is an exchanger????".  The 8 customers in front of me all waved their II certificates...
> 
> I do like flexibility of longer/shorter stays but logic tells me like for like "high end" exchanges will be more difficult.  In the current system there are only certain units that can access others. In the new system, everyone with enough points has access.  Please remember, it only takes one "Tues-Thurs" stay to completely wipe out a week for occupancy by another customer...
> 
> puckman


I have my trading resorts and my usage resorts which I rent out when I don't use them.  I don't trade my HH summer weeks at all unless I get stuck with a week I don't need short notice.  Theoretically I would love to have 4 (possibly 5) of my resorts in a good Marriott points system and would be hard pressed to convert 4 (? 5) of my weeks without retaining the underlying resort and season preference.  But then the devil is in the details so we'll see what system (if any) actually roles out and the specifics as it applies to my situation.


----------



## jin

"I believe there are more exchangers out there than will admit it!!! I was at Surf Club during a Plat Plus spring break week this past March. While on the check in line I inquired loudly "who here is an exchanger????". The 8 customers in front of me all waved their II certificates..."

Precisely!

"I do like flexibility of longer/shorter stays but logic tells me like for like "high end" exchanges will be more difficult. In the current system there are only certain units that can access others. In the new system, everyone with enough points has access. Please remember, it only takes one "Tues-Thurs" stay to completely wipe out a week for occupancy by another customer..."

This is true, but keep in mind it is all about Flexibilty.  With a point system you may only want to stay 4 days in Oahu,  4 days in Maui, and 3 days in Kuaii.  Pete


----------



## puckmanfl

Pete

Keep in mind that under the current system you are guaranteed a "summer" week no matter when you make your reservation.  It may not be July 4th but you are guaranteed a week in your season. 

With a new points system, there will be a time (7 mos at DVC) where everything is open, you can lose your home resort as it becomes available to the masses. thus you better know by november which summer week you want...

puckman


----------



## jin

Dean said:


> They do have a dilemma and I agree with Perry that they are late to the party.  I would agree that those weaker trading resorts for higher season will likely be the best options to get into the system, the question to me is really how does one get from her to there.  As I said earlier in this thread, Gold and possibly Silver and Platinum as lessor demand resorts are likely to be the best to covert. Why would I want to give up my HH summer weeks unless Marriott really forced me or made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  No only might top weeks at top resorts come out ahead not converted (at least for a few years) but it's likely that trade power might actually increase for some options.
> 
> There is really NO reason for II to change anything internally.  They currently have a way to rate (and adjust) the demand and ratings of each week and resort.  Other than the interface to get the weeks from Marriott points to a full week inside II and the costs associated, they really don't need to change anything.  Their current system will account for differences between weeks (they don't deal with Marriott seasons) and resort quality/demand.
> 
> It was the affiliates I was referring to.  No doubt that many of their resorts are top notch.



The truth is, Marriott is a much bigger system than Hilton, and like some of the Hilton affiliates, has their share of older resorts, but like Hilton even these resorts are kept to a certain standard, and still have a lot of desirability because of location, or other attributes.


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## jin

puckmanfl said:


> Pete
> 
> Keep in mind that under the current system you are guaranteed a "summer" week no matter when you make your reservation.  It may not be July 4th but you are guaranteed a week in your season.
> 
> With a new points system, there will be a time (7 mos at DVC) where everything is open, you can lose your home resort as it becomes available to the masses. thus you better know by november which summer week you want...
> 
> puckman



I agree, but it also takes good planning to get the week you want in your season, and often times Marriotts platinum season is too long, meaning some owners in the top season are going to get much less desired weeks if not planning ahead.  As we all know, the secret to a successful timeshare experience is to plan ahead! Pete


----------



## sdgaskill1

*Marriott Owners*



mm251 said:


> We attended Marriott Ko Olina presentation yesterday.  According to the sales representative, Marriott will be releasing new ownership use rules in June.  The new rules will likely change the priority of bookings for any owners that did not buy directly from Marriott.  If so, I believe the net effect would be to de-value the timeshare resale price.
> 
> Accordingly, "they are trying to protect owners that purchased directly from Marriott".  Of course, "external sales owners would still retain title, but may end up on the first floor at a time they do not wish to visit."
> 
> I have no idea if it is just a sales pitch, "telling it like it is" as the rep said, or what.
> 
> Has anyone heard this presentation?



Hello, As a former Marriott owner, what I know about their changes are 2 large ones. 1. They no longer buy back weeks, but will trade you points if you want to rent your unit. No guarantee on the rental. When I called about selling mine, their response was "try the resale market". I did that, paid a RE agent about 40% commission, and got back about 30% of my original price.We still have their charge card and get reward points to use. Now the points can be used at some timeshares, not just hotels. 
2. American Airlines, starting June 2010, no longer accepts Marriott points for travel. We don't know about the other airlines. 
I would ask to see, in writing, anything you are told in a sales presentation. This is the way to find out if it is valid. We were notified by American Airlines, not Marriott, about the change in points.
Good luck, Sandra Gaskill


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> Perry...
> 
> If MVCI gives the same point value for a 2 bedroom plat. Orlando and a 2 bedroom plat ski week at Park City, then you will see the lynch mob....
> 
> The owners at SW or Mountainside paid twice as much for the unit than their Orlando counterpart (retail). The difference is probably greater (resale) as the ski plat weeks have kept some value, while the Orlando resale values resale prices have really bottomed-out...
> 
> p.s.  welcome back...



Maybe, but they don't lynch HGVC when they sell Hawaii weeks for 50% more than they sell Vegas and Orlando. The advantage of owning a more expensive week is to be able to have first shot at your home resort and get the pick of prime weeks.

With HGVC, I paid less upfront and pay less in MF's to own in Vegas. I can exchange into Hawaii at the 9 month mark. The thing is, I'm picking over the leftover weeks and not the prime weeks. I'm also only getting the what's left over as far as unit type and view. 

When we exchanged our Vegas points for Hawaii, I wanted ocean front 2 bedroom. Reality was that I was able to reserve a 1 bedroom ocean view or, I could have had a 2 bedroom city view. 

In Hilton, it's said that points are points and that's true. But, if you want a particular week, say a good ski week in Utah, you'd better own that resort. 

Of course Fletch has stated that there will be no home resort advantage. Now that bothers me and, if that's the case, then I agree that you're correct. If the prime platinum ski weeks are worth the same as platinum Orlando weeks, there will be a lot of disgruntled owners. If that happens I also agree that you're more likely to see lower season weeks joining and less high season weeks. 

But if the assumption is wrong and there is a home resort advantage, then I don't think that's likely to be the case. 

Some of this will depend on how many use their weeks to exchange, how many use part of their weeks (lock-out) to stay at their home resort and exchange the other portion and how many strictly exchange. Those that exchange are more likely to buy into a points based system regardless IF (and it's a big if), they see it as an advantage to easily get what they want. 

Somehow I bet Marriott has all these numbers and at least has a clue what they're doing. At least I hope they do.


----------



## m61376

Ann in CA said:


> Of course the big push was to buy a points trader, but our sales rep, who was actually quite personable and not pushy, knew nothing about the points program.  When he realized we really would not consider anything without more info, he called in a supervisor.  She could not tell us much "without the risk of being fired", and she had worked for Marriott for 16 years or so.  She did tell us that they were closing down the sales area for a week this month to train in the new system, and *that she was buying two more properties before June as she was excited about the program*.



Ann- Doesn't that seem a bit ironic? IF she was so excited about the new program, why would she buy deeded weeks in the old system before the new system was rolled out; why not wait and buy in the points program without the expense of converting?

sorry- posted that before seeing the comments already made. But I still feel something doesn't make sense. IF she was truly buying now, I suspect that she doesn't have too much confidence in what might be rolled out.


----------



## BocaBum99

jin said:


> Dean,
> I totally disagree with this statement aside from some of the HGVC Affiliates.  The HGVC built resorts are consistently VERY nice and most quite new, and are highly ranked on trip adviser and Tug.  Take a look at HGVC Kingsland on the Big Island, HGVC Waikoloa, Grand Waikikian, HGVC Parc Soleil, HGVC on International Drive, Breckenridge HGVC, Portugal HGVC, HGVC Flamingo or Strip location just to name a few great properties.  I would say Kingsland is probably the 2'nd nicest timeshare I have stayed at (Residence at the Crane  in Barbados #1 which cost me only a bit more than 50% worth of my HGVC week worth of points to trade for on RCI).  I have stayed at the KoOlina Marriott, Grand Vista, Grand Chateau which are all very nice, but certainly not superior to HGVC!  I have also stayed at several nice Westin Properties (Kierland in Scottsdale, Westin Princeville) and some Wyndom properties.  My ranking as a whole in terms of the actual property (not system) is Westin = or >than HGVC = or > Marriott and ALL 3 are superior to Wyndom , Blue-Green, etc.  Hilton's biggest problem is they are too focussed on Hawaii, Vegas, and Orlando, but any of the HGVC built resorts are every bit as nice, and in some cases nicer than Marriott.... Pete



How convenient of you to leave out the affiliates.  I have been to most of the timeshares you have listed in your post and I would say they are about equal to the top end Marriotts.

I've also been to Club Regency on Marco Island.  It was a dive.  Not even up to par with the average Bluegreen resort which is a value oriented timeshare resort group.  The Bay Club is quite average as well.  If you look at the total Marriott vs. the total HGVC including affiliates, I'd have to say that Marriott is slightly better over all, but in the same class.


----------



## PerryM

*It's alive......*

What's the goal of an exchange system?
A service that matches similar reservations between owners.

What's the goal of a sales system?
Sell timeshares to new customers and existing owners.

The two have nothing to do with each other - yet Marriott is going to pound a square peg into a round hole and try to make this new system do both; sell Points to a timeshare exchange system.

I honestly don't know how this Frankenstein system will look and behave since it probably won't do either task well.

If Marriott wanted a real internal exchange system they could have contracted with Resort2Resort.com and had the system up and running 4 years ago when the rumors started.  They could have charged $199 for each week deposited and less than that per exchange.

But noooo, instead they've been assembling a monster in the basement that might just doom them in this electrifying environment....

To me it just makes no sense at all.


----------



## Dean

jin said:


> The truth is, Marriott is a much bigger system than Hilton, and like some of the Hilton affiliates, has their share of older resorts, but like Hilton even these resorts are kept to a certain standard, and still have a lot of desirability because of location, or other attributes.


I believe there is more variability within Hilton than Marriott but certainly there is variability within Marriott as well.



PerryM said:


> What's the goal of an exchange system?
> A service that matches similar reservations between owners.
> 
> What's the goal of a sales system?
> Sell timeshares to new customers and existing owners.
> 
> The two have nothing to do with each other - yet Marriott is going to pound a square peg into a round hole and try to make this new system do both; sell Points to a timeshare exchange system.


Perry I don't think Marriott is unique in this area, EVERY timeshare system has multiple factors and directions.  Every developer is trying to sell at almost any cost and get the most $$$ they can.  Then there are usage and exchange features.  The semi unique issue about most points systems is that they are a usage and exchange system tied together.  To a degree, one portion will have to compromise in favor of the other.  I favor the DVC system except with a minimum stay priority for a full week.  That gives you home resort priority and a fair chance at other options at a later date.  It assigns value to using larger units and lower seasons and higher points to higher demand times (higher seasons, Fri/Sat) and better view options.  I use DVC, RCI points, Bluegreen and an individual resort that works on points.  All are different and must be approached differently to get the best value but all are a good option overall for their niche.  I am confident that if I chose to participate with any possible MVCI points system, I can make that one work to my advantage as well.  Remember that to a large degree, timeshare usage is really about me vs the other members in many ways.


----------



## jimf41

Perry,
Exactly what is it that you know about the "new system" that doesn't make sense?


----------



## davidvel

Dean said:


> Even if the systems run separate inventory, which they really should, the question of which units/weeks are included in the points vs weeks side is very critical and likely will be somewhat subjective.  It's unrealistic to assume that the current members will be status quo from a reservation standpoint and also unrealistic that both systems will be 100% "fair" for every situation.


I am confident that any "separation of inventory" or priority on reservations for points members would be a breach of the covenants.


----------



## PerryM

*Ghouls, ghosts, and goblins...*



jimf41 said:


> Perry,
> Exactly what is it that you know about the "new system" that doesn't make sense?



Why would Marriott stop selling timeshares and start selling a timeshare exchange system; and after 20 years of selling timeshares?  I don't get it.

The learning curve of 400,000+ Marriott owners to forget all they know about week based timeshares and exchanging in II to be replaced with a currency of Points and Point Calendars - just this feat will cost millions of dollars.

It's one thing to be a Point system, like Disney or WorldMark, and sell Points to either a master deed trust, like WM, or RTU like Disney.  They built/bought the condos and sell points (credits) that become a currency which owners accumulate and spend on reservations.

But to suddenly decide one day to stop selling timeshares and get into the timeshare exchange business just baffles my imagination - it's insanity.

Other timeshare developers are doing something like this - like Wyndham and a Wyndham sells for 5 cents on the dollar on the resale market - is this Marriott's goal?  I now think it is and I'm disgusted with that concept.

Wyndham at least has the courtesy to not ghoulishly recycle the remnants of timeshare units on the resale market that go for next to nothing.  Marriott will recycle discarded units by owners impacted by the new system.  Marriott will be gobbling at the bones of owners who gave up and never got the vacation they were lead to believe was theirs for the asking.

Resale prices will fall when resales must pay a premium to enroll in the new system and that membership won't transfer when the unit is sold and resales will reflect that fact with lower prices.

And when the new system turns out to be no better or worse than the existing II system what will be accomplished as far as the owners are concerned - just membership fees, two mutually exclusive inventory pools of reservations, and lower resale prices.

All this when real estate is on very shaky grounds, credit is tight, folks are worried about their jobs, and this is the time Marriott chucks 20 years of selling timeshares just to jump into the timeshare exchange business?

From the sales side Marriott just needs to sell exchange Points to the holiday weeks - forget the rest of the year.  The salesreps will oversell New Year's weeks at ski resorts and Hawaiian islands - that's all their sales pitch will become.  They no longer need to actually have those weeks in inventory to sell like now - just a ghostly image on their cubicle wall of a "print screen", of their PC monitor, when such a week was deposited into the system from the distant past.

It makes no sense to me at all - unless this was the hair brain idea of a Marriott and daddy was too busy with other matters - that makes sense.


----------



## jin

BocaBum99 said:


> How convenient of you to leave out the affiliates.  I have been to most of the timeshares you have listed in your post and I would say they are about equal to the top end Marriotts.
> 
> I've also been to Club Regency on Marco Island.  It was a dive.  Not even up to par with the average Bluegreen resort which is a value oriented timeshare resort group.  The Bay Club is quite average as well.  If you look at the total Marriott vs. the total HGVC including affiliates, I'd have to say that Marriott is slightly better over all, but in the same class.




I have not stayed at any of the affiliates, but don't believe there is that much inventory in the system as I never see them aside from the BAY Club.  The Bay Club is supposed to have very large rooms and is actually supposed to be quite nice since their recent renovation.  I won't have any hesitation staying at this resort.  I like the fact that I can actually trade for this resort on shorter notice.  Grand Pacific Palisades in Carlsbad also looks appealing.   I  agree the Florida affiliates are less appealing, but like I said, this is only a small part of total HGVC inventory, and most of HGVC inventory is top notch in my humble opinion.   Marriott has a fair amount older resorts as well as they have been around a lot longer..... Pete


----------



## Dean

davidvel said:


> I am confident that any "separation of inventory" or priority on reservations for points members would be a breach of the covenants.


The inventory will have to be separate to a degree, the question really is how to decide how to divide it up.  I am confident that it will not be "fair" in some people's eyes no matter how it's done.



PerryM said:


> Why would Marriott stop selling timeshares and start selling a timeshare exchange system; and after 20 years of selling timeshares?  I don't get it.
> 
> The learning curve of 400,000+ Marriott owners to forget all they know about week based timeshares and exchanging in II to be replaced with a currency of Points and Point Calendars - just this feat will cost millions of dollars.
> 
> It's one thing to be a Point system, like Disney or WorldMark, and sell Points to either a master deed trust, like WM, or RTU like Disney.  They built/bought the condos and sell points (credits) that become a currency which owners accumulate and spend on reservations.
> 
> But to suddenly decide one day to stop selling timeshares and get into the timeshare exchange business just baffles my imagination - it's insanity.
> 
> Other timeshare developers are doing something like this - like Wyndham and a Wyndham sells for 5 cents on the dollar on the resale market - is this Marriott's goal?  I now think it is and I'm disgusted with that concept.
> 
> Wyndham at least has the courtesy to not ghoulishly recycle the remnants of timeshare units on the resale market that go for next to nothing.  Marriott will recycle discarded units by owners impacted by the new system.  Marriott will be gobbling at the bones of owners who gave up and never got the vacation they were lead to believe was theirs for the asking.
> 
> Resale prices will fall when resales must pay a premium to enroll in the new system and that membership won't transfer when the unit is sold and resales will reflect that fact with lower prices.
> 
> And when the new system turns out to be no better or worse than the existing II system what will be accomplished as far as the owners are concerned - just membership fees, two mutually exclusive inventory pools of reservations, and lower resale prices.
> 
> All this when real estate is on very shaky grounds, credit is tight, folks are worried about their jobs, and this is the time Marriott chucks 20 years of selling timeshares just to jump into the timeshare exchange business?
> 
> From the sales side Marriott just needs to sell exchange Points to the holiday weeks - forget the rest of the year.  The salesreps will oversell New Year's weeks at ski resorts and Hawaiian islands - that's all their sales pitch will become.  They no longer need to actually have those weeks in inventory to sell like now - just a ghostly image on their cubicle wall of a "print screen", of their PC monitor, when such a week was deposited into the system from the distant past.
> 
> It makes no sense to me at all - unless this was the hair brain idea of a Marriott and daddy was too busy with other matters - that makes sense.


Perry, I don't know if this is all going to happen or not but if they change to a points system there are reasons they would consider it.  I would agree with you that this is a fundamental change of the product and they they should have done it a number of years ago.  Points systems will appeal to a sightly different audience than will weeks but the main issue from Marriott's standpoint is that every single point is sold as a Platinum season but not every point can reserve a platinum season.  Overall points systems are better received by the masses than weeks.  It's not that Marriott doesn't care about existing owners but they also have to care about their bottom line, that can be quite a balancing act.  Resale prices really won't mean much, what you or I can sell for really has never been their concern, nor should it.  However, it brings ROFR into play in that they can take any weeks they deem of value and convert them to points.

As I noted above, I am confident that any program will be reasonable but not perfect.  I am also confident that some will be upset if this happens.  Not all points systems started that way including what's now Wyndham and Bluegreen.  Converting does give them one other opportunity that I'm quite sure you won't like, that of being able to differentiate retail from resale much as some of those other points systems do.


----------



## puckmanfl

Dean...

Please help me out and explain to me why you would even remotely consider converting your "top shelf" HHI summer weeks!!!

If you plan to occupy, there is no reason to change.  If you plan "like-like" exchanges, this system may add a little flexibility but will add so many more "players" that can snag these units that availability must inevitably decrease.  I do believe that flexibility in "downtrading" will be dramatically increased.  The good news is that a summer HHI week or Hawaii week might generate 10-14 days in Ocean Pointe/ Marco off season and that 3-4 day getaways in these off seasons will be plentiful.  Visiting resorts off season within driving distance for 3-4 getaways will definitely be a plus...

I do forsee II "fighting back" and coming up with incentives to get MVCI weeks in their system!!! Perhaps increased availability of AC's and other perks!!!

I just need someone to convince me to participate.  All I have really heard is that there is some increased flexibility and "ALL the other TS companies do it" so it must be good...


----------



## m61376

Dean said:


> Converting does give them one other opportunity that I'm quite sure you won't like, that of being able to differentiate retail from resale much as some of those other points systems do.



Dean- While I agree with much of what you say, there are a few things I'd like to comment on. First, the inventory should and I think legally can only be separated according to ownership in the respective systems. In order to make systems equitable the reservations for every unit type and every reservation day should reflect the portion of ownership- so that if there are 25% point owners, then a quarter of the reservations should go to that group for each unit type and reservation day. Logistically, I am sure this will create a bit of a nightmare, and be especially hard for smaller resorts and more limited villa types (at many resorts there may be 20 OF or 3BR villas, spread out over 3,4 or 5 arrival dates each week).

Secondly, to address what I quoted above. I hope Marriott doesn't lose sight of the fact that the more successful points based systems, which most here tout as DVC and HGVC, either don't differentiate or make minimal distinction between how owners acquired their weeks. Not surprisingly, resale values are higher and so is owner satisfaction. 

Even Starwood's program, which does distinguish buyers at many of their properties, has had any distinction built in from the onset; that is, at the point of purchase every buyer was aware of their rights and limitations, if any. I have said it before and I will reiterate it- it is one thing for Marriott to enact a new system that creates a distinction between future purchasers and a very different thing to create sub-classes of current owners. The only delineation which I would consider equitable would be to enhance the current distinction- that is, make the transfer of points to the Rewards Program the selling point it once was. That would increase value for current retail owners and would maintain what should currently be the real distinction, but has morphed into a program of limited value to many.

That said, while I would not like it I do not feel it would be unfair for them to create a larger distinction for future purchasers, since people will have the option to buy or not buy as they see fit. However, I do think they should look long and hard at how the voluntary program has decimated the value of many of the Starwood properties and the high rate of owner dissatisfaction and default. Marriott has the power to make the distinction between retail and resale something of real value without being punitive, simply by enhancing the reward point trade value. 

Ten to fifteen years ago, when many of these values were set, MF's were considerably less, up front costs were considerably less, and the point cost for travel packages was a whole lot less. Many of those up front incentives practically paid the difference in purchase price. Today, prices of units are much higher, MF's doubled in some cases, travel packages require a lot more points and the only thing that has remained stagnant is the redemption value of the weeks. Even values assigned for current purchases don't reflect the full increases on the redemption side. In reality, since the trade value doesn't change but every other parameter increases, the value of this perk has decreased commensurate to the other increases. A fairer exchange value would be easy to implement, and building in a cost of living factor would help keep the program relevant ten years down the road. Marriott could easily take a positive approach to enhancing developer sales by making it truly a seamless program with owner access to the hundreds of hotels worldwide, with owners getting really good value for their money. After all, Marriott gets a nice timeshare to rent out for thousands of dollars for the week, so shouldn't owners be able to book equivalent accommodation value when trading? THAT would be a win-win program and something that might entice many, even resale owners, to participate in. Then we'd truly be buying pre-paid vacations world-wide- and, after all, isn't that what they are selling?


----------



## m61376

puckmanfl-
IF there is no home resort priority, as Fletch suggested and as the AP program was implemented, I think a lot of premium week owners will hesitate to participate. I think that a lot of Platinum week owners in perhaps less in demand locales might, but then again they may opt to continue using II for one to one trades if it will cost them 2 weeks of points for a single week in a top tier location. I think a lot will depend upon whether they adopt the wide differential in point allocation as in the AP program or something more akin to HGVC's program; that remains to be seen. 

As for the benefit for lower season owners to join- I think a lot will depend on how the MF's are handled. IF they remain as they currently are, with every owner at every resort paying the same MF's according to unit size for their underlying week, then lower season owners might balk at their point allotments. After all, the opportunity to snag up-trades will be gone (or at least severely diminished) in a points system). If they get fewer points but pay lower MF's some may feel it is more equitable.

The problem is is that it is impossible for Marriott to satisfy everyone. No matter what they do one subset is going to be unhappy. Since they want to sell points and want to sell the prospect of everyone being able to reserve those prime Platinum weeks, I expect they will tilt the scales accordingly. But the one fact they cannot alter, no matter what spin they put on it, is that for many resorts the prime weeks are truly limited, and even for those few resorts with consistent weather and attraction appeal (like Hawaii, Aruba, Vegas and I think a few of the new resorts that they've delineated similarly), there are certainly more in demand weeks than others (school vacation weeks, etc., within the same season). Selling the idea of everyone simply being able to spend New Year's in Hawaii, in Aruba or skiing, which are all very high demand weeks, simply by buying enough points, is a scary thought.


----------



## PerryM

*The Pro of Cons*



Dean said:


> The inventory will have to be separate to a degree, the question really is how to decide how to divide it up.  I am confident that it will not be "fair" in some people's eyes no matter how it's done.
> 
> Perry, I don't know if this is all going to happen or not but *if they change to a points system there are reasons they would consider it*.  I would agree with you that this is a fundamental change of the product and they they should have done it a number of years ago.  Points systems will appeal to a sightly different audience than will weeks but the main issue from Marriott's standpoint is that every single point is sold as a Platinum season but not every point can reserve a platinum season.  Overall points systems are better received by the masses than weeks.  It's not that Marriott doesn't care about existing owners but they also have to care about their bottom line, that can be quite a balancing act.  Resale prices really won't mean much, what you or I can sell for really has never been their concern, nor should it.  However, it brings ROFR into play in that they can take any weeks they deem of value and convert them to points.
> 
> As I noted above, I am confident that any program will be reasonable but not perfect.  I am also confident that some will be upset if this happens.  Not all points systems started that way including what's now Wyndham and Bluegreen.  Converting does give them one other opportunity that I'm quite sure you won't like, that of being able to differentiate retail from resale much as some of those other points systems do.



Here are the Pros to Marriott:

No worries about selling doggy weeks - sell Points to access owners' reservations
Resales crumble since Marriott sells Points and resales sell weeks - no compatibility and thus 5 cents on the dollar resales
Exercise ROFR at the 5% level and recycle weeks to Points
400,000 owners with 2 weeks each, lest's say 1,000,000 weeks, times $2,500 per week is a goal of $2.5 Billion goal for this project

Here are the Cons to Marriott:

Huge learning curve to explain to 400,000 owners
Owners balking at paying the membership fee
Ticked off owners with 2 reservation pools
Ticked off owners realizing that there are many shades to Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Platinum Plus
Lawsuits that could challenge the very existence of the new system
Wrong timing resulting in poor conversion and poor acceptance for new owners

For the 400,000 owners:

Will the new system help or hurt our Marriotts now and 10 years from now?
Will the resale market be impacted by the incompatibility of Points versus weeks?
Will the new system be better than II?
Can I afford to join?

I can't overstate that the new system, in my estimate, will kill the Marriott resale market - Marriott sells Points in an exchange club and resales are for deeded weeks not in Marriott's exchange club - the two are not compatible.; thus Wyndham type resales of 5 cents on the sales dollar.

But isn't this what the salesreps have said for years now?

*"Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry"*

Personally, I believe them.....


----------



## PerryM

*Mommy, I hate math...*



m61376 said:


> puckmanfl-
> IF there is no home resort priority, as Fletch suggested and as the AP program was implemented, I think a lot of premium week owners will hesitate to participate. I think that a lot of Platinum week owners in perhaps less in demand locales might, but then again they may opt to continue using II for one to one trades if it will cost them 2 weeks of points for a single week in a top tier location. I think a lot will depend upon whether they adopt the wide differential in point allocation as in the AP program or something more akin to HGVC's program; that remains to be seen.
> 
> As for the benefit for lower season owners to join- I think a lot will depend on how the MF's are handled. IF they remain as they currently are, with every owner at every resort paying the same MF's according to unit size for their underlying week, then lower season owners might balk at their point allotments. After all, the opportunity to snag up-trades will be gone (or at least severely diminished) in a points system). If they get fewer points but pay lower MF's some may feel it is more equitable.
> 
> The problem is is that it is impossible for Marriott to satisfy everyone. No matter what they do one subset is going to be unhappy. Since they want to sell points and want to sell the prospect of everyone being able to reserve those prime Platinum weeks, I expect they will tilt the scales accordingly. But the one fact they cannot alter, no matter what spin they put on it, is that for many resorts the prime weeks are truly limited, and even for those few resorts with consistent weather and attraction appeal (like Hawaii, Aruba, Vegas and I think a few of the new resorts that they've delineated similarly), there are certainly more in demand weeks than others (school vacation weeks, etc., within the same season). *Selling the idea of everyone simply being able to spend New Year's in Hawaii, in Aruba or skiing, which are all very high demand weeks, simply by buying enough points, is a scary thought.*



Well that's the whole idea - at least to Marriott salesreps.

I've postulated that just 20 numbers, in the Points calendar/matrix, are all that is needed to make an internal exchange system work - just like Resort2Resort.

II doesn't care if you have ocean front or garden view - they all are the same if the goal is to have a workable exchange system.

On the day of release I'm going to count how many numbers are needed to make the new Marriott system work - I'm guessing a zillion more than 20 since ocean-view, garden view, different shades of Platinum are needed in a sales system.

Exchange system or sales system - count the numbers and find out yourself.

The bigger that number the more incompatible the two systems become.


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## GregT

PerryM said:


> I can't overstate that the new system, in my estimate, will kill the Marriott resale market



Perry, I just can't see this happening?  I can see impacted values to the Silver weeks, and perhaps Gold, but I would believe that Platinum weeks will at least hold whatever their current value is (and frankly Gold/Silver are already crushed).   We see this same phenomenon with HGVC points -- the Platinum points hold, Gold and Silver much less so.

If Ko Olina weeks go down to 10% of their retail price, that suggests a $5K or $6K up-front payment.  I suspect many people would be willing to pay that -- two recent eBay transactions both sold Ko Olina 2BR OV at $15K - $16K each and those are low by historical standards.

I believe there's going to be demand from buyers for the Platinum weeks if they are disenchanted with the Points system and those owners either want control over booking their reservation (or want to Direct Exchange with other Platinum owners if they want to visit MFC/MOC/MSK, etc).

The only way to truly kill resale values if if Marriott differentiates between resale owners prior to June XX, 2010 versus resale owners after June XX, 2010 -- similar to what Worldmark did when they introduced TravelShare.  If Marriott did differentiate and restricted the ability for new resale owners to book reservations until X months before check-in, that would be a problem for all resale values.  But I would think that would lessen the value of their ROFR also, since anything they ROFR'd is now a resale week?

Lots to speculate about -- I personally don't believe Marriott is going to introduce a punitive clause for future resales, and that Platinum deeds will continue to hold their value.

Hopefully we will know soon!

Best to all,

Greg


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## puckmanfl

good morning....

The "horse" is already out of the barn with regards to point values.  There is no way MVCI can just have 20 numbers.  As Asia has pointed out the AP program has already pointed out values...

2 bedroom Ko-olina is 48K points, 2 bedroom Vegas Plat is 38K points.  They can't just say "oops, just kiddin' " and make all Plat two bedrooms equal point value".   The "CHART" will be quite interesting.  Imagine the angst of all of the "owners" that were told their plat week at their "home" resort is the most valued in the system... 

should be fun as the mother company is going to need to come up with some way to get "primo" weeks owners to opt in or it is doomed to failure.  Without prime inventory in the system, the word will get out pretty quickly!!!

I really want to be an optimist, as I am still waiting for a TUGGER with foresight and vision to convince me to opt in... In other words, occupancy remains the same , How does this system improve  "like-like" good exchanges with exchanges with MORE customers looking for fixed availability of limited inventory!!!


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## GregT

puckmanfl said:


> I really want to be an optimist, as I am still waiting for a TUGGER with foresight and vision to convince me to opt in... In other words, occupancy remains the same , How does this system improve  "like-like" good exchanges with exchanges with MORE customers looking for fixed availability of limited inventory!!!



Puckman,

I've never been associated with the words foresight or vision   but I'll try.

As with you, I'm skeptical that Marriott can offer me something to trade in one of my two MOC weeks into the points system.   I like my fixed weeks and the size of my units and I'm reluctant to part with them, as I believe I will be able to get Direct Exchanges when desired and II will still be a good deposit location for my lock-off.

However, the following would make me look at the program:

1) I would definitely join *IF *it was not a permanent commitment, ie one year I can deposit the 3BR and get XXX points for use elsewhere (in Asia Pacific, that could be 85,000 points based upon TDI) -- that's enough for a 2BR and a 1BR in the Asia Pacific Program (a "trade-up" from my 2BR and Studio) and then the next year visit my unit as normal -- such that each year I have the flexibility to stay in my unit or deposit it into the pool.  I don't know if there is any precedent for this type of system.
2) I would definitely join *IF *I could deposit just the lock-off and get points that I could pool and use EOY (or low TDI weeks annually) for a 1BR at Ko Olina/other.  As with #1, I'm not sure if there is a precedent.
3) I would definitely NOT join if you had no ability to control the view of the property that you redeemed points at -- I'm surprised that Asia Pacific charges same points for both Mountain View and Ocean View units -- definitely a letdown for me.   II has too much availability at Ko Olina (studios granted) to make it worth the loss of the MOC property
4) I would definitely NOT join if there was no home resort advantage, or at least some ability to ensure I could get a second MOC week contiguous to the MOC week that I kept (I can't imagine putting both weeks in)
5) I will be annoyed if they differentiate between existing resale and new resale owners -- and it would make me highly inclined to not join the system.

#1 and #2 above are key points of interest to me.  One thing that intrigues me about other points system is the very little value additional points value that HGVC ascribes to a 3BR versus a 2BR in their newer properties.  I think at KingsLand at 2BR is  12,700 points and a 3BR is 14,700 (I think) -- if Marriott retains such a minor difference in points, that will be a disincentive to participation as well.

We will see!

All the best,

Greg


----------



## m61376

GregT said:


> The only way to truly kill resale values if if Marriott differentiates between resale owners prior to June XX, 2010 versus resale owners after June XX, 2010 -- similar to what Worldmark did when they introduced TravelShare.  If Marriott did differentiate and restricted the ability for new resale owners to book reservations until X months before check-in, that would be a problem for all resale values.  But I would think that would lessen the value of their ROFR also, since anything they ROFR'd is now a resale week?
> 
> Lots to speculate about -- I personally don't believe Marriott is going to introduce a punitive clause for future resales, and that Platinum deeds will continue to hold their value.


I don't think legally they can change the ability of any future resale owners to book what they are buying, because they are buying the original contract/deed. Where they can make punitive changes is to severely restrict future resale buyers from ever participating in a Marriott internal trading program (much like the Starwood voluntary resorts), although they could still trade through II.

Anything ROFR'd would revert back to a developer week, with all the benefits that infers, akin to what happens currently.


----------



## GregT

puckmanfl said:


> How does this system improve  "like-like" good exchanges with exchanges with MORE customers looking for fixed availability of limited inventory!!!



Puckman,

It's me again -- the only ways that I could see the system improving the exchanges opportunities for the points customers would be as follows (all at the expense of the existing customer base, retail and resale):

1) Marriott uses its massive quantity of weeks (in a trust) to book multiple consecutive prime weeks that now limit the inventory even further for non-points customers (but to the benefit of the points purchaser)
2) Marriott limits the ability of resale owners to make reservations until X months before check-in (edited: less likely per previous post)
3) Marriott extends the reservation time line for points purchasers (they all get 13 month reservations, even if they only have points for a single week, since the Trust has multiple weeks)
4) They offer loads of points for your Platinum week that make you think you can get better or flexible reservations

These would be reasons to join the point system if you are a single week platinum owner -- but I dislike the first 3 because they purely take advantage of the captive existing ownership (like Wyndham likes to do).

Perry is warning that we are too trusting of Marriott that they won't use their ability to manipulate the system at existing owner expense, in order to increase their own ability to sell units.    I don't believe they will need to institute #1-#3 because I believe the appeal of the points-system combined with the Marriott network will make it saleable product, therefore our decision will be based upon the merits of the system, versus a need to protect what we already have.

By the way, I think sales personnel may tell prospective buyers that Marriott reserves the best weeks for the points system, because its a great sales tool.  I am skeptical that Marriott can and will be able to do that.

Good luck to all,

Greg


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## GregT

m61376 said:


> I don't think legally they can change the ability of any future resale owners to book what they are buying, because they are buying the original contract/deed. Where they can make punitive changes is to severely restrict future resale buyers from ever participating in a Marriott internal trading program (much like the Starwood voluntary resorts), although they could still trade through II.
> 
> Anything ROFR'd would revert back to a developer week, with all the benefits that infers, akin to what happens currently.



Good points, thanks very much


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## bogey21

I'm sure Marriott is on firm (or close to firm) legal ground with what they are doing.  But they clearly are not being fair to those who bought based on the program as it was at the time of their purchase.  At one time I owned 5 Marriott Weeks in Orlando and Hilton Head.  The resale and rental programs that existed when I bought were major inducements.  When Marriott started messing with these to their benefit (and my detriment) I sold all 5 of my Weeks.  All I can say is that I'm glad I did.  

George


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## Fredm

Since we are all speculating, try this one on.

Marriott's new points system will need lots of inventory.
So, every owner as of June 30 is grandfathered. No buy-in.

Rather than inventing a long table of point values for exchange, they adopt the Marriott Rewards point value (or a proportionate value)  for each season or Plus week at every resort. They already have them.

Home resort reservation rules still apply.
So does the maintenance fee.  As is currently the case, they are not tied to season value.

Exchanges via I.I. are still available for those who wish to not play.


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## puckmanfl

Fred

My 2 bedroom Koolina gets 85,000 MR points and my 3 bedroom GV gets 125,000 MR pts.  Don't believe my 3 bedroom GV is 40% MORE valuable than 2 bedroom Koolina.  

AS per Greg, the only way this can work is if MVCI uses their unsold and owner returned inventory in the "points" pool.  This will  be especially true in the beginning!!!  They are going to want people shouting from the  rooftops "looky here, just snagged week 52 at summitt watch"...


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## Fredm

puckmanfl said:


> Fred
> 
> My 2 bedroom Koolina gets 85,000 MR points and my 3 bedroom GV gets 125,000 MR pts.  Don't believe my 3 bedroom GV is 40% MORE valuable than 2 bedroom Koolina.



True.

But your GV IS worth 40% more MR points. That did not stop you from buying KoOlina. The difference is that you have home resort advantage at KoOlina. That's why Marriott could offer less MR points to a KoOlina week. The principal value was in the reservation priority.

Same argument can be made under the new system. Except a resale buyer never had the MR points. 
I understand that a KoOlina owner may not consider this "fair".  But, nothing will be "fair" to everyone.  Just guessing like everyone else.

As for shouting from the roof tops about a Summit Watch week 52, that will not happen under any circumstances.  Salespeople may want to sell it that way. But, in actuality, they will not be available except by a fluke.

Point values aside, the key to success will be lots and lots of inventory available. The best way to insure this is to grandfather everybody at no buy-in cost.


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## puckmanfl

Hi...

If my GV is going to get me 40% better trading power than Koolina I will put that into points immediately and KEEP the KOOLINA for usage and II exchanges.  There is no possible way  my 3 bedroom GV has 40% better trading power than KOOLINA.

I believe that MVCI inversely used MR value to stimulate developer sales at more difficult to sell places.  Hawaii and the ski weeks (also 85K points) sell themselves.  MR points are not a reliable indicator of value or trading power...


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Dean...
> 
> Please help me out and explain to me why you would even remotely consider converting your "top shelf" HHI summer weeks!!!
> 
> If you plan to occupy, there is no reason to change.  If you plan "like-like" exchanges, this system may add a little flexibility but will add so many more "players" that can snag these units that availability must inevitably decrease.  I do believe that flexibility in "downtrading" will be dramatically increased.  The good news is that a summer HHI week or Hawaii week might generate 10-14 days in Ocean Pointe/ Marco off season and that 3-4 day getaways in these off seasons will be plentiful.  Visiting resorts off season within driving distance for 3-4 getaways will definitely be a plus...
> 
> I do forsee II "fighting back" and coming up with incentives to get MVCI weeks in their system!!! Perhaps increased availability of AC's and other perks!!!
> 
> I just need someone to convince me to participate.  All I have really heard is that there is some increased flexibility and "ALL the other TS companies do it" so it must be good...


Obviously the specifics will determine any decisions.  As to what could convince me to convert all of my weeks including the Platinum Grande Ocean and Surfwatch Platinum weeks, here are a few possibilities.  If they gave me the right to use my week or get points as I believe Hyatt does or if there were a VIP level such that the benefits gave me enough priority are 2 possibilities.  I'm sure there are others.  I do agree that it's not very likely any new system will offer enough to get those weeks but it's possible.



m61376 said:


> Dean- While I agree with much of what you say, there are a few things I'd like to comment on. First, the inventory should and I think legally can only be separated according to ownership in the respective systems. In order to make systems equitable the reservations for every unit type and every reservation day should reflect the portion of ownership- so that if there are 25% point owners, then a quarter of the reservations should go to that group for each unit type and reservation day. Logistically, I am sure this will create a bit of a nightmare, and be especially hard for smaller resorts and more limited villa types (at many resorts there may be 20 OF or 3BR villas, spread out over 3,4 or 5 arrival dates each week).
> 
> Secondly, to address what I quoted above. I hope Marriott doesn't lose sight of the fact that the more successful points based systems, which most here tout as DVC and HGVC, either don't differentiate or make minimal distinction between how owners acquired their weeks. Not surprisingly, resale values are higher and so is owner satisfaction.
> 
> Even Starwood's program, which does distinguish buyers at many of their properties, has had any distinction built in from the onset; that is, at the point of purchase every buyer was aware of their rights and limitations, if any. I have said it before and I will reiterate it- it is one thing for Marriott to enact a new system that creates a distinction between future purchasers and a very different thing to create sub-classes of current owners. The only delineation which I would consider equitable would be to enhance the current distinction- that is, make the transfer of points to the Rewards Program the selling point it once was. That would increase value for current retail owners and would maintain what should currently be the real distinction, but has morphed into a program of limited value to many.
> 
> That said, while I would not like it I do not feel it would be unfair for them to create a larger distinction for future purchasers, since people will have the option to buy or not buy as they see fit. However, I do think they should look long and hard at how the voluntary program has decimated the value of many of the Starwood properties and the high rate of owner dissatisfaction and default. Marriott has the power to make the distinction between retail and resale something of real value without being punitive, simply by enhancing the reward point trade value.
> 
> Ten to fifteen years ago, when many of these values were set, MF's were considerably less, up front costs were considerably less, and the point cost for travel packages was a whole lot less. Many of those up front incentives practically paid the difference in purchase price. Today, prices of units are much higher, MF's doubled in some cases, travel packages require a lot more points and the only thing that has remained stagnant is the redemption value of the weeks. Even values assigned for current purchases don't reflect the full increases on the redemption side. In reality, since the trade value doesn't change but every other parameter increases, the value of this perk has decreased commensurate to the other increases. A fairer exchange value would be easy to implement, and building in a cost of living factor would help keep the program relevant ten years down the road. Marriott could easily take a positive approach to enhancing developer sales by making it truly a seamless program with owner access to the hundreds of hotels worldwide, with owners getting really good value for their money. After all, Marriott gets a nice timeshare to rent out for thousands of dollars for the week, so shouldn't owners be able to book equivalent accommodation value when trading? THAT would be a win-win program and something that might entice many, even resale owners, to participate in. Then we'd truly be buying pre-paid vacations world-wide- and, after all, isn't that what they are selling?


I think there are several ways they could legally separate the inventory.  They could do it by the week on the deed or by the % of owners that have converted within a given Marriott season.  I think the latter is more likely but that assumes they retain the same seasons for the affected resorts in any new system as they have now.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> Here are the Pros to Marriott:
> 
> No worries about selling doggy weeks - sell Points to access owners' reservations
> Resales crumble since Marriott sells Points and resales sell weeks - no compatibility and thus 5 cents on the dollar resales
> Exercise ROFR at the 5% level and recycle weeks to Points
> 400,000 owners with 2 weeks each, lest's say 1,000,000 weeks, times $2,500 per week is a goal of $2.5 Billion goal for this project
> 
> Here are the Cons to Marriott:
> 
> Huge learning curve to explain to 400,000 owners
> Owners balking at paying the membership fee
> Ticked off owners with 2 reservation pools
> Ticked off owners realizing that there are many shades to Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Platinum Plus
> Lawsuits that could challenge the very existence of the new system
> Wrong timing resulting in poor conversion and poor acceptance for new owners
> 
> For the 400,000 owners:
> 
> Will the new system help or hurt our Marriotts now and 10 years from now?
> Will the resale market be impacted by the incompatibility of Points versus weeks?
> Will the new system be better than II?
> Can I afford to join?
> 
> I can't overstate that the new system, in my estimate, will kill the Marriott resale market - Marriott sells Points in an exchange club and resales are for deeded weeks not in Marriott's exchange club - the two are not compatible.; thus Wyndham type resales of 5 cents on the sales dollar.
> 
> But isn't this what the salesreps have said for years now?
> 
> *"Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry"*
> 
> Personally, I believe them.....


Perry, while I agree with your list of pros and cons in large part, I disagree with your previous assertion (if I understood correctly), that this means they shouldn't do it.  I do believe they can come up with a win-win scenario for most owners and I don't think that resale values for weeks you and I own are their concern nor should they be.



PerryM said:


> Well that's the whole idea - at least to Marriott salesreps.


That's the main draw to the developer for all points systems/resorts I know of.



m61376 said:


> I don't think legally they can change the ability of any future resale owners to book what they are buying, because they are buying the original contract/deed.


They could restrict them to the actual week they bought and it's essentially a certainty that the inventories would be totally separate.  I do agree that a weeks owner will have to have access to reserve "what they bought" on a relatively equal footing but there's really almost no way to make it totally equal for all situations.  I also suspect it's like the 13/12 month reservation window will fall fairly early in such a plan.  Look at the Maui Marriott property where they have had quite an issue of people buying "platinum" but not being able to get the time they wanted (like summer).



Fredm said:


> Since we are all speculating, try this one on.
> 
> Marriott's new points system will need lots of inventory.
> So, every owner as of June 30 is grandfathered. No buy-in.
> 
> Rather than inventing a long table of point values for exchange, they adopt the Marriott Rewards point value (or a proportionate value)  for each season or Plus week at every resort. They already have them.
> 
> Home resort reservation rules still apply.
> So does the maintenance fee.  As is currently the case, they are not tied to season value.
> 
> Exchanges via I.I. are still available for those who wish to not play.


Fred, I've said essentially the same thing.  I don't think it'll be free and automatic but likely relatively easy and inexpensive early on.  Even at free it might not be a good deal for many.

I don't see any way that the amount of points a unit gets can be used to determine the points value of any such system but I'm sure it'll mirror it in large part as in general the reward points a given week will trade for has some reflection of the underlying price and demand.  However, the system has changed such that newer properties are tending to get less MR points than older ones did.  Can we say Monarch at 130K MR points.


----------



## puckmanfl

Dean...

If the incentives do get to convert your "primo" HHI weeks, Are you optimistic about your chances for obtaining "fair value" in a "like for like" exchange..
Keep in mind, more customers will be "eyeballing" the same weeks you are!!!

puckman


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Dean...
> 
> If the incentives do get to convert your "primo" HHI weeks, Are you optimistic about your chances for obtaining "fair value" in a "like for like" exchange..
> Keep in mind, more customers will be "eyeballing" the same weeks you are!!!
> 
> puckman


No way to say at this point.  I am confident that any points system Marriott rolls out will be a good and fair one and equally confident that some won't like it, esp those that are used to the current system.  I'd be willing to bet Perry won't like it, any takers?


----------



## PerryM

*Nightmares on Marriott Street....*



Dean said:


> No way to say at this point.  I am confident that any points system Marriott rolls out will be a good and fair one and equally confident that some won't like it, esp those that are used to the current system.  *I'd be willing to bet Perry won't like it, any takers?*



I could very well love the new system - my II exchanges get higher Trading Power and I snag some upscale timeshares - maybe even Platinum Marriotts.

With our lockout and 59 day exchanges I could very well stay at 2BR Platinum Marriotts - twice!

Who knows what an unproven exchange system will bring to all of us.

But I am confident Marriott resales will be joining Wyndham at the 5% level eventually.  I'll be on the lookout for fixed weeks in the Marriott system that I can use and rent as their resale value won't hit 5% but will be way below the old 60% level compared to current Marriott sales.

Like many other timeshare owners I hope to do well from the foibles of owners who just want to get out of the nightmare they are now in.

One person's nightmare is another person's dream come true.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> I could very well love the new system - my II exchanges get higher Trading Power and I snag some upscale timeshares - maybe even Platinum Marriotts.
> 
> With our lockout and 59 day exchanges I could very well stay at 2BR Platinum Marriotts - twice!
> 
> Who knows what an unproven exchange system will bring to all of us.
> 
> But I am confident Marriott resales will be joining Wyndham at the 5% level eventually.  I'll be on the lookout for fixed weeks in the Marriott system that I can use and rent as their resale value won't hit 5% but will be way below the old 60% level compared to current Marriott sales.
> 
> Like many other timeshare owners I hope to do well from the foibles of owners who just want to get out of the nightmare they are now in.
> 
> One person's nightmare is another person's dream come true.


Perry, I can't ever recall seeing you post anything positive about Marriott, I'm sure it's happened but I don't recall it.


----------



## PerryM

*Stumbling and bumbling...*



Dean said:


> Perry, I can't ever recall seeing you post anything positive about Marriott, I'm sure it's happened but I don't recall it.



Well of course I have - all the vacations at the Maui Ocean Club, Beach Place Towers, MountainSide, Summit Watch, etc.

We used to own 3 MountainSides - 2 week 52's and 1 week 51 and 2 other Platinum Plus holiday weeks at other Marriotts.  Sold all 5 for a BE profit and if you throw the years of usage and rental paid for all MFs and had a little left over.  Those were the good ol' days.

You won't find me complaining about exchanging 10,000 WM credits in II and staying Christmas week at Summit Watch in a 2BR - love the place.

I just find the 4 years of constant bashing of resales by Marriott minions despicable and in the gutter like most other timeshare developers.

I think Marriott is simply doing what's best for their stockholders and if that harms us they don't give a hoot.  Just like all the rest except for Disney.

In our case our only exposure is a $5,500 resale of a Gold week at Summit Watch I bought 4+ years ago and have fantastic exchanges and probably won't do so good in the future.

But some of you have hundreds of thousands of dollars at risk and this should be a VERY big deal to all of you.

We will see if June has Marriott exiting the timeshare business and rebooting as a timeshare exchange company with any success.  For the sake of many folks here I hope Marriott doesn't stumble...


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> Well of course I have - all the vacations at the Maui Ocean Club, Beach Place Towers, MountainSide, Summit Watch, etc.
> 
> We used to own 3 MountainSides - 2 week 52's and 1 week 51 and 2 other Platinum Plus holiday weeks at other Marriotts.  Sold all 5 for a BE profit and if you throw the years of usage and rental paid for all MFs and had a little left over.  Those were the good ol' days.
> 
> You won't find me complaining about exchanging 10,000 WM credits in II and staying Christmas week at Summit Watch in a 2BR - love the place.
> 
> I just find the 4 years of constant bashing of resales by Marriott minions despicable and in the gutter like most other timeshare developers.
> 
> I think Marriott is simply doing what's best for their stockholders and if that harms us they don't give a hoot.  Just like all the rest except for Disney.
> 
> In our case our only exposure is a $5,500 resale of a Gold week at Summit Watch I bought 4+ years ago and have fantastic exchanges and probably won't do so good in the future.
> 
> But some of you have hundreds of thousands of dollars at risk and this should be a VERY big deal to all of you.
> 
> We will see if June has Marriott exiting the timeshare business and rebooting as a timeshare exchange company with any success.  For the sake of many folks here I hope Marriott doesn't stumble...


My reference was your posts about the company and related info, not your vacations.  Didn't you previously own several Marriott weeks that you divested yourself of?  My risk is more than yours because I have more weeks and some of them are high end, but I knew going in there was risk and accepted those risks up front.  It doesn't mean I'll be thrilled if I end up worse off but you won't see me complaining that Marriott is bad because such changes affect me negatively.  About the most you'll see from me is a statement of where I am with any new system and what I see my choices are going forward.


----------



## m61376

GregT said:


> It's me again -- the only ways that I could see the system improving the exchanges opportunities for the points customers would be as follows (all at the expense of the existing customer base, retail and resale):
> 
> 1) Marriott uses its massive quantity of weeks (in a trust) to book multiple consecutive prime weeks that now limit the inventory even further for non-points customers (but to the benefit of the points purchaser)
> 2) Marriott limits the ability of resale owners to make reservations until X months before check-in (edited: less likely per previous post)
> 3) Marriott extends the reservation time line for points purchasers (they all get 13 month reservations, even if they only have points for a single week, since the Trust has multiple weeks)
> 4) They offer loads of points for your Platinum week that make you think you can get better or flexible reservations
> 
> These would be reasons to join the point system if you are a single week platinum owner -- but I dislike the first 3 because they purely take advantage of the captive existing ownership (like Wyndham likes to do).
> 
> 
> By the way, I think sales personnel may tell prospective buyers that Marriott reserves the best weeks for the points system, because its a great sales tool.  *I am skeptical that Marriott can and will be able to do that.
> *
> Good luck to all,
> 
> Greg


I am fairly certain that Marriott will only be able to play with the portion of weeks owned by the point system. Marriott must keep separate inventory and I am fairly certain will only be able to apportion the percentage of each reservation opportunity (week/day of arrival/unit size/unit view) that belongs to the point system. Thus, even if Marriott let point owners reserve at 13 months, the week owners would still have their fair share of inventory to reserve at the 12 month mark. That's why your first three scenarios won't make an impact.

Where it will get dicey are those resorts/villa size or villa views with very limited inventory.


----------



## m61376

Fredm said:


> Since we are all speculating, try this one on.
> 
> Marriott's new points system will need lots of inventory.
> So, every owner as of June 30 is grandfathered. No buy-in.
> 
> Rather than inventing a long table of point values for exchange, they adopt the Marriott Rewards point value (or a proportionate value)  for each season or Plus week at every resort. They already have them.
> 
> Home resort reservation rules still apply.
> So does the maintenance fee.  As is currently the case, they are not tied to season value.
> 
> Exchanges via I.I. are still available for those who wish to not play.


Your speculation makes sense. The only real issue here is that over time newer resorts were issued higher point values and, in some cases, more recent buyers at the same resort received adjusted point allocations if they decided to trade in for points. The trade for reward point values aren't really a fair reflection of unit value, at least in my opinion.

My speculation would be a system similar to what you suggest, but I think a more equitable allotment would be to base the allocation on the fair market rental rate; Marriott's own rack rates for rentals are already in place, and reflect unit size, view, and resort demand (which is a combination of location and quality). Average the rental rates across each season. An objective system between unit sizes, views, even days of the week already exists and has been market tested and balanced across the board. Future resorts can similarly be allotted values based on their rental rate at the time compared to the allocations already in place elsewhere, so it would be easy to fairly equalize point allocations of newer properties- if they are that much nicer so that they demand a rental rate of 125% of another property, then it should receive a similar increase in points. It is easy to do and easy to make comparisons to compensate for inflation (ie- in 2010 resort A gets 2100 points. In 2015, resort B is built. Rental rates at resort A were $300 a night in 2010, but are $350 a night in 2015. If rental rates at resort B are $350 a night, then it should still only get 2100 points; if rental rates at resort B are $385 a night, then it should get 2310 points [the increased value adjusted for inflation]).


----------



## m61376

Dean said:


> I think there are several ways they could legally separate the inventory.  They could do it by the week on the deed or by the % of owners that have converted within a given Marriott season.  I think the latter is more likely but that assumes they retain the same seasons for the affected resorts in any new system as they have now.



I think they would have to do it by the percentage of owners that have converted within a certain unit type/season. Marriott spent twenty years telling owners that the week on the deed didn't matter and to now change that would cause a huge uproar.


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## Dean

m61376 said:


> I think they would have to do it by the percentage of owners that have converted within a certain unit type/season. Marriott spent twenty years telling owners that the week on the deed didn't matter and to now change that would cause a huge uproar.


I agree this is most likely, esp early on.  I think the issues will be at the extremes.  Say only a few owners are left in a given category OR only a few have converted or for the 2 week Plat Plus situations where even a minimal amount of asymmetry between the 2 possible weeks might be evident.  Just remember that even a great plan will have losers.


----------



## PerryM

*Perry is very wary*



Dean said:


> My reference was your posts about the company and related info, not your vacations.  Didn't you previously own several Marriott weeks that you divested yourself of?  My risk is more than yours because I have more weeks and some of them are high end, but I knew going in there was risk and accepted those risks up front.  It doesn't mean I'll be thrilled if I end up worse off but you won't see me complaining that Marriott is bad because such changes affect me negatively.  About the most you'll see from me is a statement of where I am with any new system and what I see my choices are going forward.



I'm what might be called an aggressive consumer - I work hard for my money and I demand my money must work hard for me.

Marriott sounds like it wants to change all the rules it lived by for the past 20 years - I don't get to do the same so I take this as an ultra aggressive move against me and 400,000+ fellow owners.  Tossing out the rule book in the middle of the game is a very aggressive, and hostile, move.

On Marriott's side I believe this is a sign of desperation and they've decided to bet MVCI as "all in".  Personally I don't like it but I'm going to spend time trying to maximize the new rules to my advantage.

To those Marriott owners with a lot of money invested - you should be very wary of a company that wants to change the rules you used to buy into their product - very wary.

So I now lump Marriott into the same class as Wyndham, Westgate, and all the other companies who are a far step below Disney; it's a shame but Marriott is the one doing this...


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> I'm what might be called an aggressive consumer - I work hard for my money and I demand my money must work hard for me.
> 
> Marriott sounds like it wants to change all the rules it lived by for the past 20 years - I don't get to do the same so I take this as an ultra aggressive move against me and 400,000+ fellow owners.  Tossing out the rule book in the middle of the game is a very aggressive, and hostile, move.
> 
> On Marriott's side I believe this is a sign of desperation and they've decided to bet MVCI as "all in".  Personally I don't like it but I'm going to spend time trying to maximize the new rules to my advantage.
> 
> To those Marriott owners with a lot of money invested - you should be very wary of a company that wants to change the rules you used to buy into their product - very wary.
> 
> So I now lump Marriott into the same class as Wyndham, Westgate, and all the other companies who are a far step below Disney; it's a shame but Marriott is the one doing this...


Didn't you and I both say they should have done it previously, though likely for different reasons.  Taking any such move as a personal affront would be a poor approach, IMO.

I know II has been rumored to have been developing a points product in the past, I wonder if a joint venture could be in order.


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## m61376

Perry- Before we are hypercritical we need to see exactly what it is that they roll out. IF it is akin to the Asia Pacific program then I agree with you. I also agree that there is an inherent risk to changing the rules midstream.

IF they adopt a program similar to what Fred outlined, maintaining home resort priority and the ability to book what you own in advance but having the flexibility of a points based exchange system and the ability to even have some flexibility with length of stay at your home resort, without an added fee to join (or perhaps a minimal fee like II has), with all owners being equally welcomed (with the distinction between direct and resale purchasers remaining the ability to trade for Marriott Reward points that direct buyers have), and IF they use an equitable basis for point valuation which represents true value of a week (supply, demand and quality- which is already represented by the fair market rental rates) and has a means of maintaining equity as future resorts are added (a way of valuating future properties so that the points difference will represent unit value and not just an arbitrary inflation in order to enhance sales), I could see this as a real benefit to many owners. 

Of course, those that have worked the system, such as you have, will understandably find fault. But to be honest, even you must admit that closing such loopholes really wouldn't be unfair and might make the program overall more inherently equitable. 3BR Plat. owners at prime resorts should get more for their trades, esp. when the 3BR resorts are non lock-off units. If those former "losers" benefit at the expense of the "upgraders," Marriott may hit upon something that, while not universally appealing, may be more equitable. My real concern is that Marriott is going to tilt the scales solely for Marriott's benefit. A pure points system utilized primarily as a sales ploy, with wide variation between point allocations with the likelihood of an ever increasing scale for future resorts, without home resort advantage so that people who paid a premium for premium weeks would continue to get first crack at reserving them, might have the dire consequences that you are predicting.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over the next months or so.


----------



## PerryM

*Doing too well in America is a bad thing these days...*



m61376 said:


> Perry- Before we are hypercritical we need to see exactly what it is that they roll out. IF it is akin to the Asia Pacific program then I agree with you. I also agree that there is an inherent risk to changing the rules midstream.
> 
> IF they adopt a program similar to what Fred outlined, maintaining home resort priority and the ability to book what you own in advance but having the flexibility of a points based exchange system and the ability to even have some flexibility with length of stay at your home resort, without an added fee to join (or perhaps a minimal fee like II has), with all owners being equally welcomed (with the distinction between direct and resale purchasers remaining the ability to trade for Marriott Reward points that direct buyers have), and IF they use an equitable basis for point valuation which represents true value of a week (supply, demand and quality- which is already represented by the fair market rental rates) and has a means of maintaining equity as future resorts are added (a way of valuating future properties so that the points difference will represent unit value and not just an arbitrary inflation in order to enhance sales), I could see this as a real benefit to many owners.
> 
> Of course, those that have worked the system, such as you have, will understandably find fault. But to be honest, even you must admit that closing such loopholes really wouldn't be unfair and might make the program overall more inherently equitable. 3BR Plat. owners at prime resorts should get more for their trades, esp. when the 3BR resorts are non lock-off units. If those former "losers" benefit at the expense of the "upgraders," Marriott may hit upon something that, while not universally appealing, may be more equitable. My real concern is that Marriott is going to tilt the scales solely for Marriott's benefit. A pure points system utilized primarily as a sales ploy, with wide variation between point allocations with the likelihood of an ever increasing scale for future resorts, without home resort advantage so that people who paid a premium for premium weeks would continue to get first crack at reserving them, might have the dire consequences that you are predicting.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over the next months or so.



I love going to Vegas and playing blackjack - I've got my little card memorized, do some card counting and have a ball just watching folks lose money - at the end of the week I'm down a few bucks and had a really good time.

I learned a set of rules and used them to my advantage just to break even!

Sure I've done great with our Gold Summit Watch - I learned Marriott's and II's rules and idiosyncrasies and have done very well.  Did I do too well?  I'm sure many II weeks make it to the 59-day window at II and are basically given away.  I've snapped up those too.

So should I be punished for playing by the rules and doing very well?  It appears that some Marriott owners might just think so.  I get that a lot.

Now, 20 years into selling timeshares Marriott decides to change the rules and it sounds like the rule changes will be large.  Why change the rules at this late date?

Well that's what we will learn in June and maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised but judging from all the tinkering that Marriott has done since I've been a Marriott owner, just 10 years, these changes will benefit Marriott and not me.

The thing I wish to stress is that my resort, Summit Watch, long ago sold out all the Platinum Plus, Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Bronze is still around to haunt the HOA.  The huge sales gallery has been torn down and condos built in its place.  We, the owners, hire Marriott to run the place and clean the toilets.

Marriott want's to destroy that tranquility and turn owner against owner, some will join Marriott and their weeks are lost to those of us who don't convert; and vica-versa.

Resale values of Summit Watch owners will plunge in value as Marriott drives an exchange system we don't need down our throats;  II will turn out to be just as good at making timeshare exchanges as Marriott can do.

Christmas weeks, New Year's weeks, President's weeks, 4th of July weeks and more will be hijacked by Marriott to sell more Points into an exchange system that I believe will do more harm to Marriott owners than help us.

And for what?  For the benefit of Summit Watch owners - no.  For Marriott's benefit.

I don't like it one bit.  Could I be wrong - sure, but we are talking about timeshare developers and salesreps - I don't give them the benefit of my doubt at all...


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> I love going to Vegas and playing blackjack - I've got my little card memorized, do some card counting and have a ball just watching folks lose money - at the end of the week I'm down a few bucks and had a really good time.
> 
> I learned a set of rules and used them to my advantage just to break even!
> 
> Sure I've done great with our Gold Summit Watch - I learned Marriott's and II's rules and idiosyncrasies and have done very well.  Did I do too well?  I'm sure many II weeks make it to the 59-day window at II and are basically given away.  I've snapped up those too.
> 
> So should I be punished for playing by the rules and doing very well?  It appears that some Marriott owners might just think so.  I get that a lot.
> 
> Now, 20 years into selling timeshares Marriott decides to change the rules and it sounds like the rule changes will be large.  Why change the rules at this late date?
> 
> Well that's what we will learn in June and maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised but judging from all the tinkering that Marriott has done since I've been a Marriott owner, just 10 years, these changes will benefit Marriott and not me.
> 
> The thing I wish to stress is that my resort, Summit Watch, long ago sold out all the Platinum Plus, Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Bronze is still around to haunt the HOA.  The huge sales gallery has been torn down and condos built in its place.  We, the owners, hire Marriott to run the place and clean the toilets.
> 
> Marriott want's to destroy that tranquility and turn owner against owner, some will join Marriott and their weeks are lost to those of us who don't convert; and vica-versa.
> 
> Resale values of Summit Watch owners will plunge in value as Marriott drives an exchange system we don't need down our throats;  II will turn out to be just as good at making timeshare exchanges as Marriott can do.
> 
> Christmas weeks, New Year's weeks, President's weeks, 4th of July weeks and more will be hijacked by Marriott to sell more Points into an exchange system that I believe will do more harm to Marriott owners than help us.
> 
> And for what?  For the benefit of Summit Watch owners - no.  For Marriott's benefit.
> 
> I don't like it one bit.  Could I be wrong - sure, but we are talking about timeshare developers and salesreps - I don't give them the benefit of my doubt at all...


Perry, technically all you bought was a Gold week at Summit Watch all the rest is just add on that was not guaranteed and not contractual.  As has been pointed out, you should still have a fair option to use the week (season) you own and likely to trade it as well though possibly without the II internal trading preference going forward.  I don't see this as hurting a given resort (not that it affects the decision even if it does) and if there are unsold weeks that can now be sold, that will help such affected resorts.  That you learned the rules and they might change in a way neg to some really has no meaning in my book if done even handedly, to me, such is the way of timesharing.  When someone suggests that you've done well using the current system and that it might change for the neg, that's not about punishing people, however if a new system ends up being very negative for people in some positions (myself included), so be it.  As for owner against owner, IMO, it's always been that way with timesharing, esp Marriott, other than fixed week/fixed unit resorts like HP, Vail & Monarch and one has to wonder how long at least 2 of those 3 will be a part of the system at all.  

I don't see how Marriott could hijack weeks.  I predict you'll actually like the new system OVERALL but dislike the options to get from where you are to a position you can use it.  This should be fun for a few more months at least.


----------



## PerryM

*Let the morphing begin...*



Dean said:


> Perry, technically all you bought was a Gold week at Summit Watch all the rest is just add on that was not guaranteed and not contractual.  As has been pointed out, you should still have a fair option to use the week (season) you own and likely to trade it as well though possibly without the II internal trading preference going forward.  I don't see this as hurting a given resort (not that it affects the decision even if it does) and if there are unsold weeks that can now be sold, that will help such affected resorts.  That you learned the rules and they might change in a way neg to some really has no meaning in my book if done even handedly, to me, such is the way of timesharing.  When someone suggests that you've done well using the current system and that it might change for the neg, that's not about punishing people, however if a new system ends up being very negative for people in some positions (myself included), so be it.  As for owner against owner, IMO, it's always been that way with timesharing, esp Marriott, other than fixed week/fixed unit resorts like HP, Vail & Monarch and one has to wonder how long at least 2 of those 3 will be a part of the system at all.
> 
> *I don't see how Marriott could hijack weeks*.  I predict you'll actually like the new system OVERALL but dislike the options to get from where you are to a position you can use it.  This should be fun for a few more months at least.



A hijacker doesn't own the thing they take control over.

Marriott need not own one single hot holiday week to sell all of them.  Marriott will be hijacking owner's deposited weeks as something that is up for sale but in actuality Silver weeks at Branson might be the weeks generating enough Points to theoretically reserve a Platinum Plus week.

That's the hijacking I'm talking about.

This is not unique in the Points world - all the Points developers spend all their time selling enough Points to get to holiday weeks.  They, like Marriott, oversell holiday weeks with impunity.

Then the fun begins - how will Marriott handle hot holiday weeks that everyone wants - the Points required will not be enough to stymie the demand their salesreps caused.

Marriott, like all the other Point systems, will shrug its shoulders and just sell more holiday weeks.

I love Point systems and if Points were there from day one, like WM or Disney, then every owner bought in under those rules and need never worry about the developer morphing back to weeks.

Marriott will join Wyndham and enter the party late and cause huge consternation among the owners and that will be easy to see as more Marriott owners dump their weeks on the resale market and prices head to 5 cents on the sales dollar like Wyndham.

History repeats all the time - the experiment with Wyndham's morphing from weeks to Points will repeat here with Marriott.  Marriott could care less - we, the owners, will see history repeat itself right in front of our eyes.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> A hijacker doesn't own the thing they take control over.
> 
> Marriott need not own one single hot holiday week to sell all of them.  Marriott will be hijacking owner's deposited weeks as something that is up for sale but in actuality Silver weeks at Branson might be the weeks generating enough Points to theoretically reserve a Platinum Plus week.
> 
> That's the hijacking I'm talking about.
> 
> This is not unique in the Points world - all the Points developers spend all their time selling enough Points to get to holiday weeks.  They, like Marriott, oversell holiday weeks with impunity.
> 
> Then the fun begins - how will Marriott handle hot holiday weeks that everyone wants - the Points required will not be enough to stymie the demand their salesreps caused.
> 
> Marriott, like all the other Point systems, will shrug its shoulders and just sell more holiday weeks.
> 
> I love Point systems and if Points were there from day one, like WM or Disney, then every owner bought in under those rules and need never worry about the developer morphing back to weeks.
> 
> Marriott will join Wyndham and enter the party late and cause huge consternation among the owners and that will be easy to see as more Marriott owners dump their weeks on the resale market and prices head to 5 cents on the sales dollar like Wyndham.
> 
> History repeats all the time - the experiment with Wyndham's morphing from weeks to Points will repeat here with Marriott.  Marriott could care less - we, the owners, will see history repeat itself right in front of our eyes.


Making appropriate assumptions of course.  Technically they wouldn't be selling those weeks, only the opportunity to vie for them assuming an appropriate and fair (but not perfect) coexistence of points and weeks.  And they'd only be doing so within the confines of the weeks that were in the points system.  We don't know if a points system will happen and if it does, how the priorities will be divided up.  Worst case scenario for a single resort and their owners it would likely only affect other points members.  It will likely help seasonal resorts with unsold or weeks turned back in.  I would agree that every point sold is a high demand point in the eyes of the buying and that such is the very nature of all points systems I know of save one resort which ties the points to a unit view, size AND season; a system I don't think workable for Marriott to that degree.


----------



## PerryM

Dean said:


> Making appropriate assumptions of course.  Technically they wouldn't be selling those weeks, only the opportunity to vie for them assuming an appropriate and fair (but not perfect) coexistence of points and weeks.  And they'd only be doing so within the confines of the weeks that were in the points system.  We don't know if a points system will happen and if it does, how the priorities will be divided up.  Worst case scenario for a single resort and their owners it would likely only affect other points members.  It will likely help seasonal resorts with unsold or weeks turned back in.  I would agree that every point sold is a high demand point in the eyes of the buying and that such is the very nature of all points systems I know of save one resort which ties the points to a unit view, size AND season; a system I don't think workable for Marriott to that degree.



On the 50+ timeshare sales tours we've been on, Marriott, and other developers, use deception to sell timeshares:

"See that condo next door to our resort - it doubled in price in 2 years" is a favorite technique to get the prospect in the mood that their timeshare doubled in price too.

Marriott can now use this:
"See that week 52 reservation at MountainSide in our system - it costs just 50,000 Points - and I can sell you those Points for just $80,000"

Same kind of lie.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> On the 50+ timeshare sales tours we've been on, Marriott, and other developers, use deception to sell timeshares:
> 
> "See that condo next door to our resort - it doubled in price in 2 years" is a favorite technique to get the prospect in the mood that their timeshare doubled in price too.
> 
> Marriott can now use this:
> "See that week 52 reservation at MountainSide in our system - it costs just 50,000 Points - and I can sell you those Points for just $80,000"
> 
> Same kind of lie.


I don't see it the same at all but if we did, that would be essentially the same scenario for DVC and Worldmark and essentially any other points system and it's the same now as any other week in a floating system (see the Maui Marriott as an example).  And given a choice, I don't see as a problem, just the nature of points systems.  Plus as I pointed out, it should only affect those that chose to buy in who hopefully will realize that reservations are subject to availability and they're not buying a given week, only the ability to attempt to reserve that time.  I'm confident that Marriott will provide this information though one might need to read the legal documents to get it.

With this concern I don't see how you could like ANY points system.  I know you made the point about changing vs being the initial offering which I don't see as a consideration from a ownership usage standpoint even if it reduces exchange options or other peripheral effects beyond your purchased time at your home resort.

I don't recall Marriott ever being dishonest on a sales tour though I'm sure it's happened, others yes, but it's not the norm or suggested option from Marriott like it is with some companies.


----------



## m61376

Dean said:


> With this concern I don't see how you could like ANY points system.  I know you made the point about changing vs being the initial offering which I don't see as a consideration from a ownership usage standpoint even if it reduces exchange options or other peripheral effects beyond your purchased time at your home resort.



Dean- While I agree with most of what you've said, I do feel changing the rules mid-stream is very different then if one buys under a certain set of rules and inferred expectations. Legally, Marriott must comply with a certain set of rules, but I can also appreciate the sense of unfairness if rules that have been in existence for twenty years which owners have made an assumption would continue based on precedent are suddenly changed.

Secondly, a point system without home resort advantage will effect the use of purchased time at one's home resort, even for some people who opt to stay in the current system. There are some resorts with limited villas in certain categories. For example, take a resort with 20-24 OF or 3BR villas, with 5 arrival days. Heretofore, someone wanting a Sat. arrival, for example, would have to try to nab one of four villas. If two are taken at 13 months, now it is one of two. What happens if half go to points? What happens if 60% go to points? This will be a real issue for some views/unit sizes at some resorts, and will ultimately infringe on the rights of one's purchased time at one's home resort. So there are ramifications beyond the exchange arena.

I know I resent the prospect that potentially my rights as an owner may be infringed upon. On the other hand, while I consider it unlikely, I can envision an equitable points system with home resort priority retained which could conceivably make the system more equitable overall, but would still make some people unhappy because in making an equitable point system up-trades would be eliminated or at least severely curtailed. Did I like getting a 2BR for my studio this past Feb.- of course (although it was a Flexchange trade)- but I can admit that it wasn't an equitable trade, and wouldn't resent it's curtailment. However, I think others, such as Perry, would, because they've grown accustomed to using their ownership that way and had the natural expectation of the program continuing.

Clearly Marriott won't satisfy everyone. It will be interesting to see which path- if any- they decide to follow.


----------



## PerryM

*Apples and pineapples - close but.....*



Dean said:


> I don't see it the same at all but if we did, that would be essentially the same scenario for DVC and Worldmark and essentially any other points system and it's the same now as any other week in a floating system (see the Maui Marriott as an example).  And given a choice, I don't see as a problem, just the nature of points systems.  Plus as I pointed out, it should only affect those that chose to buy in who hopefully will realize that reservations are subject to availability and they're not buying a given week, only the ability to attempt to reserve that time.  I'm confident that Marriott will provide this information though one might need to read the legal documents to get it.
> 
> With this concern I don't see how you could like ANY points system.  I know you made the point about changing vs being the initial offering which I don't see as a consideration from a ownership usage standpoint even if it reduces exchange options or other peripheral effects beyond your purchased time at your home resort.
> 
> I don't recall Marriott ever being dishonest on a sales tour though I'm sure it's happened, others yes, but it's not the norm or suggested option from Marriott like it is with some companies.



While what you say is absolutely true there is one HUGE difference that I keep yelling at the top of my lungs:

*"Resales will die - Marriott sells Points and resales sell deeded weeks and NOT Points; the two are mutually exclusive".*

WM and Disney sell Points(Credits) and so do folks selling their Points on the resale market; easy to compare developer prices and discount them on the resale market.

This dichotomy will eviscerate the Marriott resale market - deeded weeks can't be compared to Points so how does the resale market decide on what a deeded week, not compatible with Marriott's exchange system, is worth?

What makes me just livid is the fact that this aids Marriott recycle worthless deeded weeks into Points that they then sell at full value.  We shall see in a few weeks if my fears are correct.

And Marriott's excuse is what - better exchanges among members in their Points club?  Marriott will do no better than II does at matching exchanges.  The complaints will be identical except for that membership fee which will be eye-watering.

I've given our experience with Marriott before:

We owned 3 MountainSides which initially offered 200,000 MRPs EOY and Marriott decided to make that EY if we would cough up $2,500 each - the offer was valid for 72 hours if I remember correctly.

We had no choice but to pay $7,500 and all new sales had that EY MRP built in.  Of course we lost the $7,500 when we sold our units on the resale market.

So I've been down this path with Marriott before....


----------



## rsackett

PerryM said:


> ...I've given our experience with Marriott before:
> 
> We owned 3 MountainSides which initially offered 200,000 MRPs EOY and Marriott decided to make that EY if we would cough up $2,500 each - the offer was valid for 72 hours if I remember correctly.
> 
> We had no choice but to pay $7,500 and all new sales had that EY MRP built in.  Of course we lost the $7,500 when we sold our units on the resale market.....



You had no choice?  Were they taking away the EOY option for pionts?  What would have happened if you did not pay the $7500 per unit?  What would you have lost/changed?

Ray


----------



## RandR

Can those who own in the Hilton system please answer a question for me?  I seem to remember when I was looking at HGVC that the home resort advantage was only if you are booking the exact thing that you own.  Meaning, if you owned a 2 bd Platinum, you had to reserve that for a full week.  If you wanted to do something smaller/larger, out of season or shorter trip, you had to wait until the 9 month point with everyone else. Am I correct?


----------



## Fredm

m61376 said:


> ; Your speculation makes sense. The only real issue here is that over time newer resorts were issued higher point values and, in some cases, more recent buyers at the same resort received adjusted point allocations if they decided to trade in for points. The trade for reward point values aren't really a fair reflection of unit value, at least in my opinion.
> 
> My speculation would be a system similar to what you suggest, but I think a more equitable allotment would be to base the allocation on the fair market rental rate.



Equitable to whom? Not those who already have a higher MR value.

MR points already exist. Owners already know the comparative value.  Yes, KoOlina gets 85,000, and Desert Springs Red gets 125,000. Owners bought KoOlina anyway, because they want to occupy KoOlina.  KoOlina owners are not revolting because they only get 85,000 MR if they want a point exchange. They are not saying "gee, I should get as many hotel nights as Desert Springs owners".

We already know that the I.I. affiliation agreement has just been renewed. Owners will  be able to exchange weeks internally and externally, as always. 

I think the new program will be positioned as yet another "enhancement". 

I may be way off base, but I give Marriott more credit than some here. I simply cannot swallow the idea that Marriott is going to announce a "me too" points program.  Makes no sense to me. 
Nor can I believe they will do anything that compromises the perception of value with its owners. 45% of all new sales are from existing owners and their direct referrals. NOTHING is worth screwing that up.
I expect nothing less than a program that redefines the branded timeshare industry.
I will be sorely disappointed if it is otherwise.

Marriott can do that by expanding the program to include some number of resort hotels (similar to the AP program), and use MR values as the basis for the currency (a close look a the AP point values suggests that they are structured at ~2:1 of Marriott Rewards). 
 Sold this way, owners will perceive the whole thing as yet another flexible option. No less fair than the current MR timeshare values.
I.I. trades will continue to be available, just as before

If owners want more, then they can buy more. IF all owners are initially grandfathered at no cost, it will be a home run (no, it will be a grand slam).

Of course, I am just mind tripping. But, I cannot escape my underlying assumption that the new program will have the competition scrambling. Otherwise, why do it? Not to screw existing owners who account for 45% of all new business.


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## m61376

Fred- While I agree in premise to most of what you say, I strongly disagree that a system based on current MR point valuations could be considered equitable by most people, for several reasons.

The case you cited illustrates the underlying inequity. True, Ko'Olina owners bought anyway, because they wanted to occupy AND because they knew that their trade value would be at the top of the heap, and many recognized that with the high MF's they'd be unlikely to trade for reward points. That is VERY different from having an inferior trade value when doing any internal trades. At many resorts, different views, which may have cost 5K more, have the same point trade value. Plat. Plus weeks, which may have a double upfront cost, may only get 15% greater reward points. 

Extrapolating what is an inherently unfair reward point allocation to be the basis of all exchanges, or even any booking at your home resort other than the week of ownership (or, if there is no home resort priority, as the basis of all reservations) would be to create an inherently inequitable system from the get-go; it would be a system that had built in inequities like you mentioned, and had valuations based on time of construction and, to a certain extent, sales marketing, rather than being a true value of unit value. IF Marriott wants to create an equitable system it must base value on some objective terms, and the "value" must reflect unit size, view, time of visit, geographical location and resort quality/amenities. The designated value must reflect market conditions- and what better reflection of market demand is the rack rental rate which has already been set for every parameter, and is seemingly accurate since Marriott is a successful hotelier. 

The fact that a Desert Spring week gets almost 50% more reward points than a Hawaii week is enough evidence to me that the reward point conversion is flawed. In reality, depending on time of purchase, the same property may be valuated differently wrt reward points. I think if Marriott does, in fact, do as you suggest, and base their valuation on the current reward point values, it will be doomed from the start.


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## dougp26364

RandR said:


> Can those who own in the Hilton system please answer a question for me?  I seem to remember when I was looking at HGVC that the home resort advantage was only if you are booking the exact thing that you own.  Meaning, if you owned a 2 bd Platinum, you had to reserve that for a full week.  If you wanted to do something smaller/larger, out of season or shorter trip, you had to wait until the 9 month point with everyone else. Am I correct?



This is true. We own a 2 bedroom Platinum season at the Las Vegas Strip location. During home resort advantage I must book the entire 2 bedroom unit. It can not be split and I can not book either a 1 bedroom or studio unit. I may ONLY book the exact style unit I own. It's one of the few drawbacks we have with HGVC.

Should we only want to use enough points for a 1 bedroom exchange, I have to wait until the 9 month date when everyone can book whatever is in the inventory. Should this same system be implemented with Marriott, it would be a problem for us. We bought 3 bedroom units not because we needed or even wanted 3 bedroom units. We bought them for their location, unit layout and view. 

Needless to say we always have locked out the units in the past and exchanged the lock-out portion. This year will be the first year since 2001 that we'll book the full 3 bedroom unit at Ocean Pointe and that's only because we're planning on having company. Should that company back out, I'll lock the unit off and deposit the studio section for a future exchange.


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## PerryM

*Around the world or ski Park City?*



rsackett said:


> You had no choice?  Were they taking away the EOY option for pionts?  What would have happened if you did not pay the $7500 per unit?  What would you have lost/changed?
> 
> Ray



We were given 3 days to decide and the offer would be withdrawn  - we would be stuck with turning in MRPs EOY.  Why not 1 month? We got a phone call on a Monday, I think, and were told that a credit card charge of $2,500 for each week would be required by Wednesday at the close of business EST.

Basically Marriott sold us on New Year's week at Park City, in a 2BR, or 2 round trip airline tickets to any Marriott on the planet for 1 week.  Initially turning in the week for MRPs was limited to EOY but the demand was so great because of the up coming 2002 Olympics in Park City that they wanted EY capability of MRPs so villas could be gotten easier by non-timeshare Marriott folks.

At the time we planed to keep our units for many many years and at that time 200,000 MRPs could get you 2 round trip airline tickets ANYWHERE on the planet and 1 week at a Cat 5 Marriott hotel.  I believe the MF back in 2000 was $650 and 2 round trip tickets to Australia and 1 week at a Marriott was $4,000 - we thought it was a fantastic concept.

It was a big thing back then - now its much less.

Back then MountainSide had a price increase every Friday so it was hard to tell if new sales bumped up $2,500 for Platinum Plus weeks.  I doubt new units were instantly increased by $2,500 plus the regularly scheduled price increase.

This same pressure will be applied to converting units when the new system is released - time measured in hours.


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## puckmanfl

Doug

Just curious!!!  When you try for inventory at the 9 mos. window for occupancy NOT at your home resort is there an adequate supply for "like-like" exchanges???


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## bogey21

dougp26364 said:


> We own a 2 bedroom Platinum season at the Las Vegas Strip location.


I'm not an HGVC Owner, but I really like all the HGVC Las Vegas Resorts.

George


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## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> Doug
> 
> Just curious!!!  When you try for inventory at the 9 mos. window for occupancy NOT at your home resort is there an adequate supply for "like-like" exchanges???



Generally speaking, if it's with a HGVC resort (Orlando, Hawaii and Vegas) the answer is yes. Most of the affilitated resorts have a lot fewer units available for HGVC members so, in their case, not so much. It's the achilles heal of HGVC. The build in three major markets and keep their sales cost lower by concentrating on those markets.

Hawaii has been getting progressively more difficult as they over build Vegas and Orlando but sell new owners on the idea you can exchange into Hawaii very easily (Perry's contention about selling the most valuable resorts at lessor resort pricing). I can exchange into Hawaii for most dates but, the inventory of types of units can be limited. For instance, I wanted a 1 or 2 bedroom ocean front unit. The best I could do was a 1 bedroom ocean view or a 2 bedroom city view at HHV in the Lagoon Tower. 

On the other hand, I can get pretty much anything I want in either Orlando or Vegas. We own a 2 bedroom Platinum season unit but, getting a 2 or 3 bedroom penthouse unit isn't hard at all. Even for the holiday weeks it really not an issue.


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> Dean- While I agree with most of what you've said, I do feel changing the rules mid-stream is very different then if one buys under a certain set of rules and inferred expectations. Legally, Marriott must comply with a certain set of rules, but I can also appreciate the sense of unfairness if rules that have been in existence for twenty years which owners have made an assumption would continue based on precedent are suddenly changed.
> 
> Secondly, a point system without home resort advantage will effect the use of purchased time at one's home resort, even for some people who opt to stay in the current system. There are some resorts with limited villas in certain categories. For example, take a resort with 20-24 OF or 3BR villas, with 5 arrival days. Heretofore, someone wanting a Sat. arrival, for example, would have to try to nab one of four villas. If two are taken at 13 months, now it is one of two. What happens if half go to points? What happens if 60% go to points? This will be a real issue for some views/unit sizes at some resorts, and will ultimately infringe on the rights of one's purchased time at one's home resort. So there are ramifications beyond the exchange arena.
> 
> I know I resent the prospect that potentially my rights as an owner may be infringed upon. On the other hand, while I consider it unlikely, I can envision an equitable points system with home resort priority retained which could conceivably make the system more equitable overall, but would still make some people unhappy because in making an equitable point system up-trades would be eliminated or at least severely curtailed. Did I like getting a 2BR for my studio this past Feb.- of course (although it was a Flexchange trade)- but I can admit that it wasn't an equitable trade, and wouldn't resent it's curtailment. However, I think others, such as Perry, would, because they've grown accustomed to using their ownership that way and had the natural expectation of the program continuing.
> 
> Clearly Marriott won't satisfy everyone. It will be interesting to see which path- if any- they decide to follow.


They can only really affect the owners that have purchased or converted into a points system as they will have to keep the inventory separate.  As you point out (and I did earlier) limited villa numbers will mean it's not 100%.  They can't feasibly take from us what we purchased but they can take from us based on our assumptions and ? trust.  I don't see a fundamental change as a major issue else we'd all have corded phones and no cell phones.  But I think there is an OK and not OK way to convert and we'll see where we all fall on that issue if it happens.



PerryM said:


> While what you say is absolutely true there is one HUGE difference that I keep yelling at the top of my lungs:
> 
> *"Resales will die - Marriott sells Points and resales sell deeded weeks and NOT Points; the two are mutually exclusive".*
> 
> WM and Disney sell Points(Credits) and so do folks selling their Points on the resale market; easy to compare developer prices and discount them on the resale market.
> 
> This dichotomy will eviscerate the Marriott resale market - deeded weeks can't be compared to Points so how does the resale market decide on what a deeded week, not compatible with Marriott's exchange system, is worth?
> 
> What makes me just livid is the fact that this aids Marriott recycle worthless deeded weeks into Points that they then sell at full value.  We shall see in a few weeks if my fears are correct.
> 
> And Marriott's excuse is what - better exchanges among members in their Points club?  Marriott will do no better than II does at matching exchanges.  The complaints will be identical except for that membership fee which will be eye-watering.
> 
> I've given our experience with Marriott before:
> 
> We owned 3 MountainSides which initially offered 200,000 MRPs EOY and Marriott decided to make that EY if we would cough up $2,500 each - the offer was valid for 72 hours if I remember correctly.
> 
> We had no choice but to pay $7,500 and all new sales had that EY MRP built in.  Of course we lost the $7,500 when we sold our units on the resale market.
> 
> So I've been down this path with Marriott before....


Perry, I'll repeat that what you and I can sell for is really not Marriott's concern, only what they can sell it for.  I don't see your MR points issue as germane to the situation, no one forced you to pay up and you chose to sell.  I suspect many of those new owners with EY points also paid more, likely that much more or greater.  Of course only being able to trade for points EOY was likely a blessing anyway.


----------



## Dean

Fredm said:


> Equitable to whom? Not those who already have a higher MR value.
> 
> MR points already exist. Owners already know the comparative value.  Yes, KoOlina gets 85,000, and Desert Springs Red gets 125,000. Owners bought KoOlina anyway, because they want to occupy KoOlina.  KoOlina owners are not revolting because they only get 85,000 MR if they want a point exchange. They are not saying "gee, I should get as many hotel nights as Desert Springs owners".
> 
> We already know that the I.I. affiliation agreement has just been renewed. Owners will  be able to exchange weeks internally and externally, as always.
> 
> I think the new program will be positioned as yet another "enhancement".
> 
> I may be way off base, but I give Marriott more credit than some here. I simply cannot swallow the idea that Marriott is going to announce a "me too" points program.  Makes no sense to me.
> Nor can I believe they will do anything that compromises the perception of value with its owners. 45% of all new sales are from existing owners and their direct referrals. NOTHING is worth screwing that up.
> I expect nothing less than a program that redefines the branded timeshare industry.
> I will be sorely disappointed if it is otherwise.
> 
> Marriott can do that by expanding the program to include some number of resort hotels (similar to the AP program), and use MR values as the basis for the currency (a close look a the AP point values suggests that they are structured at ~2:1 of Marriott Rewards).
> Sold this way, owners will perceive the whole thing as yet another flexible option. No less fair than the current MR timeshare values.
> I.I. trades will continue to be available, just as before
> 
> If owners want more, then they can buy more. IF all owners are initially grandfathered at no cost, it will be a home run (no, it will be a grand slam).
> 
> Of course, I am just mind tripping. But, I cannot escape my underlying assumption that the new program will have the competition scrambling. Otherwise, why do it? Not to screw existing owners who account for 45% of all new business.


I too give Marriott enough credit that if they convert to a points system it'll be something most people want to be a part of that would otherwise own or consider Marriott.  But not everyone will be happy, Perry, I'm still betting you will be one that is not.


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## puckmanfl

good evening....

Please let's not discount the ability to use II's internal MVCI preference as some minor benefit of current ownership.  There is nothing immoral or evil at work here amongst the owners that use this.  The ability to use lock offs as flexchange "chips" is a well documented part of the "old system" marketing strategy.  I distinctly remember owner seminars on how to do this.  The sales pitch for "doggy" weeks was as follows.  "Get a 2 bedroom lock off doggy week, lock off and use BOTH halves for awesome Flexchange deals".  They were actually correct, but the weeks "snagged" in this fashion are the ones that other MVCI owners have "passed" on.  I am sure that Perry and I are not the only souls that have figured this out.  It is important to remember that this product was sold BOTH as an occupancy AND exchange tool.  I don't agree with the line of thought that states " an owner is only entitled to in -season usage at home resort and all else is gravy".  Please remember the name of the organization is called "Vacation CLUB international"..

I am hopeful that Fredm is correct and this turns out to be the best "mousetrap"....but I am concerned that ability to do even like/like exchanges may be diminished!!!


----------



## PerryM

Dean said:


> ...
> 
> Perry, I'll repeat that what you and I can sell for is really not Marriott's concern, only what they can sell it for.  I don't see your MR points issue as germane to the situation, no one forced you to pay up and you chose to sell.  I suspect many of those new owners with EY points also paid more, likely that much more or greater.  Of course only being able to trade for points EOY was likely a blessing anyway.



My illustration is simple meant to show:

Marriott has charged $2,500 for new features to existing ownership before
Marriott applies pressure with arbitrary small time frames

Expect the same with their new system.


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> good evening....
> 
> Please let's not discount the ability to use II's internal MVCI preference as some minor benefit of current ownership.  There is nothing immoral or evil at work here amongst the owners that use this.  The ability to use lock offs as flexchange "chips" is a well documented part of the "old system" marketing strategy.  I distinctly remember owner seminars on how to do this.  The sales pitch for "doggy" weeks was as follows.  "Get a 2 bedroom lock off doggy week, lock off and use BOTH halves for awesome Flexchange deals".  They were actually correct, but the weeks "snagged" in this fashion are the ones that other MVCI owners have "passed" on.  I am sure that Perry and I are not the only souls that have figured this out.  It is important to remember that this product was sold BOTH as an occupancy AND exchange tool.  I don't agree with the line of thought that states " an owner is only entitled to in -season usage at home resort and all else is gravy".  Please remember the name of the organization is called "Vacation CLUB international"..
> 
> I am hopeful that Fredm is correct and this turns out to be the best "mousetrap"....but I am concerned that ability to do even like/like exchanges may be diminished!!!


IMO, sales tactics not based in contractual information are not guaranteed and can be taken away at any time.  What some sales person promised or an angle they used really means nothing otherwise.  While we all bought with certain assumptions, technically we ONLY bought a week at a given resort during a season, there is no denying this.  While I wouldn't see using the exchange system as set up as immoral, I also wouldn't see changing it completely as wrong.



PerryM said:


> My illustration is simple meant to show:
> 
> Marriott has charged $2,500 for new features to existing ownership before
> Marriott applies pressure with arbitrary small time frames
> 
> Expect the same with their new system.


I would see neither of those issues as anything wrong on Marriott's part.  You had the choice.  Even DVC has used 3 day limits on promotions and stuck to it.  I would see it as a much larger problem if they were inconsistent in such matters.  

Other than some basic assumptions including my right to reserve and use my week, I don't know what to expect with a new system.  I assume that the II internal trading preference will go away at some point and that there will be some cost and compromise if I want to convert to the new system.  But the choice will be mine though I realize that the fear of what I might lose by not converting (like you with the EY MR points option) may drive my decisions.


----------



## puckmanfl

Dean...

Shame on me for my "naivete".  I played by the rules and I did not expect a company that I have always trusted for integrity to change the "rules" 20 years into the game.  I specifically remember  the "stuff " about how a weeks based II system " is the most valuable.  I was actually told if I wanted "points" I should buy DISNEY...

I am still hopeful that they will use this as an opportunity to reinvent the wheel and to  become "the best and brightest", but none of the posts have really convinced me that this system will benefit me unless i want a bunch of flexible varying length stays to off season joints...  Please keep in mind that it only takes 1 home resort owner extending a stay from Friday to the NEXT Sunday to completely take a week out of circulation!!! 

You can be sure, I will be examining the "fine print" on the offering to be 100% sure what is "changeable" AND  subject to devaluation in the new program


----------



## RandR

dougp26364 said:


> This is true. We own a 2 bedroom Platinum season at the Las Vegas Strip location. During home resort advantage I must book the entire 2 bedroom unit. It can not be split and I can not book either a 1 bedroom or studio unit. I may ONLY book the exact style unit I own. It's one of the few drawbacks we have with HGVC.
> 
> Should we only want to use enough points for a 1 bedroom exchange, I have to wait until the 9 month date when everyone can book whatever is in the inventory. Should this same system be implemented with Marriott, it would be a problem for us. We bought 3 bedroom units not because we needed or even wanted 3 bedroom units. We bought them for their location, unit layout and view.
> 
> Needless to say we always have locked out the units in the past and exchanged the lock-out portion. This year will be the first year since 2001 that we'll book the full 3 bedroom unit at Ocean Pointe and that's only because we're planning on having company. Should that company back out, I'll lock the unit off and deposit the studio section for a future exchange.



That's what I thought.  When I was trying to decide whether to go HGVC or MVCI that was one of the things that held me back from HGVC.  It will be interesting to see what Marriott roles out.


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Dean...
> 
> Shame on me for my "naivete".  I played by the rules and I did not expect a company that I have always trusted for integrity to change the "rules" 20 years into the game.  I specifically remember  the "stuff " about how a weeks based II system " is the most valuable.  I was actually told if I wanted "points" I should buy DISNEY...
> 
> I am still hopeful that they will use this as an opportunity to reinvent the wheel and to  become "the best and brightest", but none of the posts have really convinced me that this system will benefit me unless i want a bunch of flexible varying length stays to off season joints...  Please keep in mind that it only takes 1 home resort owner extending a stay from Friday to the NEXT Sunday to completely take a week out of circulation!!!
> 
> You can be sure, I will be examining the "fine print" on the offering to be 100% sure what is "changeable" AND  subject to devaluation in the new program


I think we'll all be examining any new program closely, how it can change (the worst case scenario) is really important.  Keep in mind that even things in print in the legal paperwork can often change unilaterally.  My original POS from Grande Ocean gives a reservation procedure of sending a written request with several choices by mail.  Normally I assume the worst and hope for the best with timeshares.  I trust Marriott will come forward with a good product but don't know if it'll be for me yet.  I also realize they are a company with profit as their primary goal.

As for changing the rules mid term, I wonder how those owners at the Sea Pines Villas, Spicebush, Swallowtail, Loon Mt, Barbados, part of Vail, Paradise Island and Longboat Bay Club feel about this issue.  Esp SB/ST who were asked by Marriott to do certain things that had associated costs so they could stay within, they did so, and were dropped anyway (I know it's a little more complicated but that's the basics as I see it).  Or how will Harbour Pointe and the rest of Vail feel about Marriott when they've been let go.



RandR said:


> That's what I thought.  When I was trying to decide whether to go HGVC or MVCI that was one of the things that held me back from HGVC.  It will be interesting to see what Marriott roles out.


A system with essentially no home resort priority is a problem, esp within Marriott.  The demand is too unequal to be workable with everyone vying for the high demand options at the same time.  IMO they have to have some type of home resort/season type priority (and more than HGVC has) OR they have to have a VIP system like Wyndham/Bluegreen.  I don't see a free for all as workable


----------



## PerryM

Dean said:


> ...
> I would see neither of those issues as anything wrong on Marriott's part.  You had the choice.  Even DVC has used 3 day limits on promotions and stuck to it.  I would see it as a much larger problem if they were inconsistent in such matters.
> 
> ...



Never even hinted that Marriott has done anything wrong - just that they have done it in the past and will do so in the future...


----------



## dougp26364

RandR said:


> That's what I thought.  When I was trying to decide whether to go HGVC or MVCI that was one of the things that held me back from HGVC.  It will be interesting to see what Marriott roles out.



That and the lack of true HGVC destinations are what kept me from increasing my ownership with Hilton. Hilton's great if you want to go to Orlando, Vegas or Hawaii. 

From what I've seen in looking around, there is no perfect system. Everything has it's drawbacks and, as Perry has pointed out, the developers won't roll out a system that doesn't work towards increasing sales. For that matter, every system I've seen has some form of discouragement for resale buyers. 

Now as to whether Marriott will be charging owners to join any new points based system, I have little doubt they will. That will be almost pure profit except for the paper work involved in amending the deeds. I'm hoping it's nothing like the $2,500 I'm seeing bandied about but, DRI charged current Polo Towers owners $2,995 to join THE Club but, they already had a strong base of owners that were in the points program. I would like to think that Marriott would want to encourage large groups of owners to join any new points program they might roll out by keeping the joiner fee more reasonable. Especially when you consider the current economic situation. $500 would be a no brainer for me IF the program would work for us. $1,000 is pushing it right now as far as my budget is concerned and the facts we tend to use our units and I'd still be happy exchanging through Interval. 

But then again it will depend on my percieved value of any new program to me. With DRI, I was able to calculate the benefit and it was pretty obvious after I ran the numbers that I could still get the usage I was accustomed to AND squeeze enough value to offset the joiner fee in a little over 2 years. If things didn't change for the worse, after 3 years the program would actually be profitable to me. Because of how we use our Marriott ownerships, it's doubtful that it would be beneficial for me to join the same program with Marriott at the same price.


----------



## m61376

Doug-
I agree that the price to join needs to be under 1K, esp. if it is per week, esp. if they are rolling something so dramatically different out in this economy. Otherwise I think most people won't even consider such a discretionary expense. Marriott has to recognize that many owners will still opt for II membership and/or have multi-year II memberships that have already been paid for. So this is likely just an additional expense, rather than a substitute for II's membership fees.

Besides the cost is of course the question of whether they are inclusive of resale owners and/or just make a minimal differentiation (doesn't DVC, Hyatt and HGVC either treat all owners the same or have some insignificant distinction?) and the more universal concerns of home resort priority (or lack thereof), how the points are allocated (are they tied to some objective factor and can this modality be used to fairly allocate points for any future properties), and how will MF's be determined?

I hope once (if?) the program is announced those with more expertise will thoroughly dissect the pros and cons, so that IF, as Perry suggests, there is a time limited initial offer, we can make an educated decision expeditiously. 

btw- something I think Marriott tried to do in the initial offering of the AP program was to enhance the reward point conversion for a limited time (I think it was 5:1 for the first ten years or so and then returned to 3:1) and then later offerings didn't have this enhancement. I suspect the initial offering will have some type of similar perk built in. I am actually surprised that the overall program did not enhance the reward point conversion, since that truly could be a great benefit to buying retail, as many here have attested to. While many here still tout it as a wonderful option, I think most (although I could be wrong) feel that at current pricing and at recent limited up front point offerings, coupled with current increased MF's, along with stagnant reward point conversions despite program point devaluations, retail purchases are, at best, questionable. Over the last six months I've seen even one of the most ardent supporters of retail purchases buy a resale week because the price difference didn't warrant the added "value" of the points program. 

So, I think Marriott really has the opportunity here to be inclusive of all owners but to really enhance their direct sales- they can include all owners in the new program, even charge a uniform initiation fee- BUT enhance the rewards program perk only, of course, for those entitled to participate. Give points that reflect real value. If they can rent your timeshare for $750 a night or more, give enough points to reserve hotel rooms in that price range for a week (or a lower priced room for a longer period). Imagine how attractive a program would be if owners could trade in their week knowing they will be getting similar value. That's the best way to have people clamoring to buy directly- make it not only a timeshare product, but create a seamless use of hotels as an option for world-wide travel. Make the rewards program option once again a valuable perk, as it was designed to be and once was.


----------



## PerryM

*Yes, there's an App for that....*

A shining example of a Point based exchange system gouging their customers is RCI Points.

Our resort used to charge $150, 5+ years ago, to join now charges $4,000 to join - per week.

(I understand that it's the resorts doing this and not RCI but who cares)

All Marriott has to do is have a live counter, ticking away, that shows the current fee to join:

*[3] memberships left at [$2,000] per week

Next [20] at [$2,100] per week*​
That's all Marriott has to do and it will have a stampede on it's hands.

(The numbers in [ ] are changeable by Marriott to reflect goals met and targets still open)

Hell, if I were Marriott I'd give away an App for the iPhone/Android - watch the numbers move in real time - it probably would go viral with the right push from Marriott.
*
Get your App...​*(Even if you don't own an iPhone/Android, you need this App)​


----------



## RandR

Dean said:


> A system with essentially no home resort priority is a problem, esp within Marriott.  The demand is too unequal to be workable with everyone vying for the high demand options at the same time.  IMO they have to have some type of home resort/season type priority (and more than HGVC has) OR they have to have a VIP system like Wyndham/Bluegreen.  I don't see a free for all as workable



I agree that a home resort priority is important.  The problem with Hilton's is that it allows you to do nothing else other than get exactly what you paid for.  At least in MVCI I can lock off and use my 1bd when I want to go and then use the l/o for a trade.


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## m61376

Perry-
:ignore: shhh...don't give them any ideas! A sign up woot off would create a feeding frenzy, that's for sure, but I hope Marriott is smart enough to realize that, at the end of the day, it relies on having happy campers, and hopefully won't try to shove anything down anyone's throats.


----------



## Dean

RandR said:


> I agree that a home resort priority is important.  The problem with Hilton's is that it allows you to do nothing else other than get exactly what you paid for.  At least in MVCI I can lock off and use my 1bd when I want to go and then use the l/o for a trade.


That's why I said essentially no home resort because I didn't think that that stated for HGVC wa enough esp for converting current resorts.  



> A shining example of a Point based exchange system gouging their customers is RCI Points.
> 
> Our resort used to charge $150, 5+ years ago, to join now charges $4,000 to join - per week.
> 
> (I understand that it's the resorts doing this and not RCI but who cares)


IMO it matters a great deal who's doing it.  While it may not affect the cost if you own at that resort, it does affect your choices and who you look to as someone you want to do business with.  



PerryM said:


> Never even hinted that Marriott has done anything wrong - just that they have done it in the past and will do so in the future...


That's appropriate as historical perspective though I really don't think it has any bearing on this current issue.  However the tone of your posts suggested you were posting the info as a negative slant toward Marriott as has been your usual.  Sorry, if I misunderstood.  IMO they can charge what they want and then the choice is mine as to whether to bite or not as it was for you for the EY points which you chose to participate in then give up when you sold.


----------



## BocaBum99

Marriott is just doing what ALL Resort Developers do.  They double, triple and quadruple dip on their current customer base at 2-3 times what an educated buyer would pay.  Nobody here should be surprised.  In fact, we should anticipate and exploit it.  It's so predictable that it's easy to capitalize on (or be eaten alive by) their future actions.

Marriott will definitely launch a points system sometime in the near future.  If not June, then some other time within the foreseeable future.  Why?  Because they can make even more money by selling the same inventory and access to inventory to new owners that they already sold to past customers.  They will be able to re-acquire inventory at pennies on the dollar and then resell the same product again and again to new suckers who are born every day.  

Moreover, access to inventory is a zero sum game.  If you give access to one group, another group loses it.  That IS what developers do.  But, all is not lost.  In fact, this creates more opportunity for all of us here on TUG funded by Retail owners who buy directly from Marriott.  Smart resale buyers will always be able to get a lion share of the benefit for a fraction of the cost.  Being a member of TUG, you have decided to take the "RED" pill.  Stick around and we will tell you how deep the rabbit hole goes.  I've been to the bottom and it's an unbelievable place.  This new Marriott point system will be no different.

Those who are trying to figure out what to do are thinking about the situation incorrectly.  That thinking as expressed in above posts will force you to make the same mistake over and over again.  Stop doing that!  Start thinking like an opportunist and not a fairness advocate.  Timesharing is inherently unfair.  Either get on the same side as the opportunists or get eaten alive by them.  Sorry, but timesharing is all about survival of the fittest and smartest at making the rules work for them... whatever they are.  Everyone else pays for their cheap vacations. 

It's clear to me that Marriott will try to coerce owners into the new system.  They will do it by scaring owners into believing that the only way to get access to prime inventory is to turn their prime weeks over to Marriott control.  Many many owners will fall for this while making additional purchases.  Marriott will lure us into their trap by taking all of their inventory and put it into the points pool.  What once went to II exchangers will no longer be available.  It will now be in the Marriott's own Flexchange program.  In addition, Marriott will subsidize maintenance fees for a few years so that a comparison of what owners currently pay vs. what they will have after a small retail purchase will be artificially lower for now.  Later, those fees will be raised at a much higher than inflation rate to catch up with the subsidies as they remove them.  It's the oldest trick in the book.

So, the counter Marriott's actions, it is very likely that the smartest move will be to determine where the great inventory actually is.  Then, get a resale purchase at the highest value, lowest cost resorts.  Expect to hold for 2-3 years.  Take out as much high value internal exchanges as you can in that time.  Dump it before the fees start ramping before Marriott is sold out.  Take advantage of the low rates when Marriott is subsidizing them.

The only thing we don't know is what the rules are.  When we know the rules, it will be patently obvious how to outsmart the Marriott product managers.  Why?  Because they have no choice but to create simple rules.  Those simple rules will not be a perfect market solution.  In other words, supply and demand will not be matched by whatever point table they create.  Whenever it is in our favor to own.  Buy.  Whenever it isn't, stay away.

As I said earlier, I don't care what Marriott launches.  I will find a way to make it work simply by evaluating the rules they put into place and exploiting them.  All others watch your wallets.


----------



## RedDogSD

Well said.  No matter what they come up with...the TUGGERS will be able to manipulate it.


----------



## PerryM

BocaBum99 said:


> Marriott is just doing what ALL Resort Developers do.  They double, triple and quadruple dip on their current customer base at 2-3 times what an educated buyer would pay.  Nobody here should be surprised.  In fact, we should anticipate and exploit it.  It's so predictable that it's easy to capitalize on (or be eaten alive by) their future actions.
> 
> Marriott will definitely launch a points system sometime in the near future.  If not June, then some other time within the foreseeable future.  Why?  Because they can make even more money by selling the same inventory and access to inventory to new owners that they already sold to past customers.  They will be able to re-acquire inventory at pennies on the dollar and then resell the same product again and again to new suckers who are born every day.
> 
> Moreover, access to inventory is a zero sum game.  If you give access to one group, another group loses it.  That IS what developers do.  But, all is not lost.  In fact, this creates more opportunity for all of us here on TUG funded by Retail owners who buy directly from Marriott.  Smart resale buyers will always be able to get a lion share of the benefit for a fraction of the cost.  Being a member of TUG, you have decided to take the "RED" pill.  Stick around and we will tell you how deep the rabbit hole goes.  I've been to the bottom and it's an unbelievable place.  This new Marriott point system will be no different.
> 
> Those who are trying to figure out what to do are thinking about the situation incorrectly.  That thinking as expressed in above posts will force you to make the same mistake over and over again.  Stop doing that!  Start thinking like an opportunist and not a fairness advocate.  Timesharing is inherently unfair.  Either get on the same side as the opportunists or get eaten alive by them.  Sorry, but timesharing is all about survival of the fittest and smartest at making the rules work for them... whatever they are.  Everyone else pays for their cheap vacations.
> 
> It's clear to me that Marriott will try to coerce owners into the new system.  They will do it by scaring owners into believing that the only way to get access to prime inventory is to turn their prime weeks over to Marriott control.  Many many owners will fall for this while making additional purchases.  Marriott will lure us into their trap by taking all of their inventory and put it into the points pool.  What once went to II exchangers will no longer be available.  It will now be in the Marriott's own Flexchange program.  In addition, Marriott will subsidize maintenance fees for a few years so that a comparison of what owners currently pay vs. what they will have after a small retail purchase will be artificially lower for now.  Later, those fees will be raised at a much higher than inflation rate to catch up with the subsidies as they remove them.  It's the oldest trick in the book.
> 
> So, the counter Marriott's actions, it is very likely that the smartest move will be to determine where the great inventory actually is.  Then, get a resale purchase at the highest value, lowest cost resorts.  Expect to hold for 2-3 years.  Take out as much high value internal exchanges as you can in that time.  Dump it before the fees start ramping before Marriott is sold out.  Take advantage of the low rates when Marriott is subsidizing them.
> 
> The only thing we don't know is what the rules are.  When we know the rules, it will be patently obvious how to outsmart the Marriott product managers.  Why?  Because they have no choice but to create simple rules.  Those simple rules will not be a perfect market solution.  In other words, supply and demand will not be matched by whatever point table they create.  Whenever it is in our favor to own.  Buy.  Whenever it isn't, stay away.
> 
> As I said earlier, I don't care what Marriott launches.  I will find a way to make it work simply by evaluating the rules they put into place and exploiting them.  All others watch your wallets.



I could not say it any better.

I'm guessing that the real gems will be fixed week Platinum Plus on the resale market - I can't even guess if prices will go up or down.

Floating seasons will crumble if Marriott continues the assault on owners by submitting 200 reservations for a juicy week within the season at 8:00:0000001 AM CST.  If that's the case then floating weeks, on the resale market, will become a party joke.


----------



## BocaBum99

PerryM said:


> I could not say it any better.
> 
> I'm guessing that the real gems will be fixed week Platinum Plus on the resale market - I can't even guess if prices will go up or down.
> 
> Floating seasons will crumble if Marriott continues the assault on owners by submitting 200 reservations for a juicy week within the season at 8:00:0000001 AM CST.  If that's the case then floating weeks, on the resale market, will become a party joke.



My guess is it will be at Platinum in the top resorts in Hawaii and Ski Resorts.  Buy the platinums when ROFR is not being exercised.  That's because when it Marriott starts exercising again, prices will rise.

If it is true that Marriott will target Platinum owners into the points system AND they will load up the points inventory with the unsold developer inventory, then those deals will be the best to own.... for now.

Buy when there is no ROFR, then profit when developer starts exercising again.  For those of you who said that prices never rise after falling, bookmark this post.  When it happens, I won't even need to say, "I told you, so."  Someone else will do it for me.


----------



## timeos2

RedDogSD said:


> Well said.  No matter what they come up with...the TUGGERS will be able to manipulate it.



THAT is a fact Jack!  It makes me wonder why so many are so worried about it. There is never a system that can't be played for best value. The fine folks here will be at the top of the list to find the value, they always are! 

It is just another trade option - that is all it is ever going to be. The world will not end.


----------



## GregT

BocaBum99 said:


> My guess is it will be at Platinum in the top resorts in Hawaii and Ski Resorts.  Buy the platinums when ROFR is not being exercised.  That's because when it Marriott starts exercising again, prices will rise.




Boca, I agree completely with your logic here (above) -- but I'm a little confused by the 2-3 year horizon that you've mentioned.  

I am thinking that the Platinum/high TDI's are something to own "in perpetuity", versus something to deposit into the points system.    Are you suggesting that they be deposited to take advantage of Marriott's incentives and then the points be dumped before MFs get too high?

Best to all,

Greg


----------



## BocaBum99

timeos2 said:


> THAT is a fact Jack!  It makes me wonder why so many are so worried about it. There is never a system that can't be played for best value. The fine folks here will be at the top of the list to find the value, they always are!
> 
> It is just another trade option - that is all it is ever going to be. The world will not end.



Those who are worried about it are trying to preserve their current investments.  Their rightful place in line based on what they paid to get into the game.  It's like buying a tech stock in Jan 2000 and deciding to in August 2010 to hold onto the stock until "it comes back."

The better move is to take a paper or real loss on your investment and value it for what it is rather than what you hope it will become.  Then, buy, sell or hold based on the future of that product.  Then, make a rational decision on the new product when it shows up.  Buy, sell or hold based on a short term view of extracting 100% of your value as quickly as possible.  Then, play with that ownership with the house's money.  When they create the next product to obsolete this one, do it all again.


----------



## BocaBum99

GregT said:


> Boca, I agree completely with your logic here (above) -- but I'm a little confused by the 2-3 year horizon that you've mentioned.
> 
> I am thinking that the Platinum/high TDI's are something to own "in perpetuity", versus something to deposit into the points system.    Are you suggesting that they be deposited to take advantage of Marriott's incentives and then the points be dumped before MFs get too high?
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg



I recommend that people take a very short term view of timeshares.  1-3 years.  Keep rotating your portfolio.  That's because the developer is always depreciating the products.  Always jump on the new product that is being subsidized by the Developer to make it appear to be cheaper than it is.  When it isn't any longer, sell it and move to the next one.  There is always a next one.


----------



## Dean

While I'm sure Platinum will be the most desired for conversion from Marriott's standpoint, I'm not convinced it'll be the best to own for conversion from the members standpoint.  The issue is what are you getting, what are you giving up and what will it cost you.  My feeling is that the best things to convert will likely be the best things to trade, Gold at the better resorts and Platinum at the lessor demand resorts.  You still might get more if converting Platinum but you're also giving up more, likely a lot more.  But it does depend on specifics.  Previously I was asked what it'd take for me to convert my Platinum HH weeks and that is essentially the question on a larger scale.  Marriott has to decide the balance on income and participation to entice current owners to convert as well as the specifics of the plan.  If they allow owners to essentially keep their weeks or trade in for MVCI points similar to Hyatt, I think they'll get a lot of people interested even with high demand weeks/resorts.  If there is no home resort priority or even if there is but it's open to all owners at a given resort, it'd be tough for me to give up my top weeks.  We'll see if/what happens, it should be fun.  I have no doubt that I can make any plan work but that doesn't mean it'll work as well as what I have now, we don't know yet.


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## dougp26364

BocaBum99 said:


> I recommend that people take a very short term view of timeshares.  1-3 years.  Keep rotating your portfolio.  That's because the developer is always depreciating the products.  Always jump on the new product that is being subsidized by the Developer to make it appear to be cheaper than it is.  When it isn't any longer, sell it and move to the next one.  There is always a next one.



This is assuming that you're not buying to own a particular resort. While it may be a good strategy for buying to exchange, I don't see that it would be profitable when buying for personal usage.

In our case, we've always purchased a timeshare because we believed one of two things. 1. We were going to use it and 2. we liked the system. Of course, over time usage may change.

We were just gettting ready to dump our Polo Towers timeshares and move onto something different in a different destination when DRI bought out Sunterra. Suddenly, with the advent of DRI's points based internal exchange system, what was old was new again. Granted $2,995 might not seem inexpensive to join I still calculated it as being less expensive, quicker and producing the same results I was after than selling and buying something new. 

There is no fool proof method to timeshare ownership. As you've pointed out, it is important to understand the rules of the game, know which rules can change and that they WILL change, then take advantage of the contracts until you can no longer see a good return for your money and move on. 

We're fortunate in that we are extremely pleased with the two Marriott resorts we own........so far. We purchased them to use and use them we have. I did purchase the particular unit type based on an expectation of possible future needs (proximity to Orlando, Florida Club membership and 3 bedroom unit) and, to some extent, trade potential (full 1 bedroom LO with the 3 bedroom Grand Chateau unit). So in our situation we do enjoy mixed usage with both personal and exchange usage.

Now comes Marriott with potentially a new product. It's going to be hard to say whether this product will benefit us or not. If it does, will it be affordable? It it's affordable, how will it benefit us? What will the rub be to added flexablity? These are all things no one can answer right now. Speculation is good but getting overly excited about it is like tilting and windmills. 

Then there's the resale value that Perry is shouting about. All I can say is, with timeshare, what resale value? Marriott propped resale values up for years with ROFR. The economy collapsed, Marriott appears to have figured out a way around the expense of ROFR and things are going to change. I feel sorry for those that purchased contracts based on non-guarenteed benefits such as Marriott Rewards points but, I'll also point out they were foolish to believe the gravy train would go on forever. If you don't have it in writing, then it's going to change. Things like MR points will only continue so long as it's mutually beneficial to both parties. When it's no longer beneficial to Marriott, Marriott is going to take the offer off the table. The fact that anyone would be surprised or upset about making a decision based on their inability to examine what's in writing always amazes me. 

The most important thing about timeshare, as far as I'm concerned, is to understand your contract and to work that contract to your advantage. Be ready for change. Change is inevitable. It will come sooner or later. The only thing you can do is prepare for it. Because change is inevitable, my stance has been, and remains, buy in a location and at a resort where you are happy to take vacations. In this way you'll always be happy.


----------



## billymach4

BocaBum99 said:


> I recommend that people take a very short term view of timeshares.  1-3 years.  Keep rotating your portfolio.  That's because the developer is always depreciating the products.  Always jump on the new product that is being subsidized by the Developer to make it appear to be cheaper than it is.  When it isn't any longer, sell it and move to the next one.  There is always a next one.



Boca,

You can be my broker any day!


----------



## curbysplace

Earlier this week I was told by a person in Marriott's hq that emails w/r/t the new program have started going out to some MVCI owners.  That individual said there have been hundereds of emails intra company in all areas if the organization over the past few months--has to be a big thing for that.  Later, told by my sales person this week that MVCI sales managers know the ins and outs of the new system but the sales force doesn't yet--until training to make sure the right, appropriate & legal things are said (or unsaid) as the case may be.  The sales pitch this week is 'buy before the change to be a "legacy" owner'.  As a legacy owner you will have all the options:  do nothing and keep your deeded week continuing TS life as we know it now; or with the point system it appears as a developer-sold week owner you may be able to alternate back and forth on an annual basis between points or trade or go to your home resort an option that might not be availabe to resale buyers--he didn't elaborate as he didn't know.  His further comment was that with 400,000 owners Marriott is not going to wreck its reputation on a bungled new system.  So take it from there--it won't be long and we will all know everything!  Then we will all begin to learn how to make the new system work best or see how well maintaining our current status works.  We will have new threads as we progress through.  Time will tell whether we end up seeing this change as an opportunity and not a problem.


----------



## PerryM

curbysplace said:


> Earlier this week I was told by a person in Marriott's hq that emails w/r/t the new program have started going out to some MVCI owners.  That individual said there have been hundereds of emails intra company in all areas if the organization over the past few months--has to be a big thing for that.  Later, told by my sales person this week that MVCI sales managers know the ins and outs of the new system but the sales force doesn't yet--until training to make sure the right, appropriate & legal things are said (or unsaid) as the case may be.  The sales pitch this week is 'buy before the change to be a "legacy" owner'.  As a legacy owner you will have all the options:  do nothing and keep your deeded week continuing TS life as we know it now; or with the point system it appears as a developer-sold week owner you may be able to alternate back and forth on an annual basis between points or trade or go to your home resort an option that might not be availabe to resale buyers--he didn't elaborate as he didn't know.  His further comment was that with 400,000 owners Marriott is not going to wreck its reputation on a bungled new system.  So take it from there--it won't be long and we will all know everything!  Then we will all begin to learn how to make the new system work best or see how well maintaining our current status works.  We will have new threads as we progress through.  Time will tell whether *we end up seeing this change as an opportunity* and not a problem.



Someone help me here - I can't think of the last developer "opportunity" I got....


----------



## AwayWeGo

*For Those Opportunities, Thanks But No Thanks.*




PerryM said:


> I can't think of the last developer "opportunity" I got.


Shux, those full-freight & big-bux timeshare sellers fall all over themselves offering the opportunity to buy a _Lifetime Of Prepaid Vacations_ that you can use or rent out or sell or bequeath to your kids & grandkids -- all for less money that you'd be paying over ___[number]___ of years of just staying in dinky motel rooms where you get nothing but the 4 Bs (a Bed & a Bathroom & a Bible & a Bill). 

Such a deal _!_ 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## Fredm

*This ship has already sailed*



PerryM said:


> Someone help me here - I can't think of the last developer "opportunity" I got....





The opportunity will be to opt-in if an owner by the end of June.
If you don't opt-in, nothing changes for you. 
Reserve at your home resort, and trade with I.I., as always.

My guess:

If you do opt-in, you can participate based on the Marriott Rewards value assigned to your ownership interest. Also, based on the frequency of MR availability. Those that can convert to MR annually will be able to play with the new points annually (think Shadow Ridge Platinum). Most will be able to play every other year.

This ship has already sailed. It's too late to buy a resale that will close in time for legacy status. 

The question of wanting to play is another issue.


----------



## Swice

*A suggestion*

This threat is awfully long!    

Would the first person with the "real" information please start a new thread, "New system details" so that others don't have to wade through and get confused by the previous "speculation in this thread?"

:whoopie:


----------



## PerryM

*Doing nothing is NOT doing nothing...*



Fredm said:


> The opportunity will be to opt-in if an owner by the end of June.
> *If you don't opt-in, nothing changes for you. *
> Reserve at your home resort, and trade with I.I., as always.
> 
> My guess:
> 
> If you do opt-in, you can participate based on the Marriott Rewards value assigned to your ownership interest. Also, based on the frequency of MR availability. Those that can convert to MR annually will be able to play with the new points annually (think Shadow Ridge Platinum). Most will be able to play every other year.
> 
> This ship has already sailed. It's too late to buy a resale that will close in time for legacy status.
> 
> The question of wanting to play is another issue.



Guys, guys, guys....

There will be all kinds of consequences no matter what owners do.  I probably won't join the new kids club but here is what I'm expecting:


Lower resale prices - dropping instantly by the membership fee - and forever
Harder upgrade exchanges - probably won't exchange Gold for Maui Platinum anymore
Harder to make reservations - its me against the Marriott computer to snap up 4th of July week at Summit Watch

There are more but I'm going to be impacted negatively by NOT doing anything.


----------



## MOXJO7282

PerryM said:


> Floating seasons will crumble if Marriott continues the assault on owners by submitting 200 reservations for a juicy week within the season at 8:00:0000001 AM CST.  If that's the case then floating weeks, on the resale market, will become a party joke.



This is no different than it is now with floating weeks. Sales people sell the dream now by telling clients to buy Florida and trade into Maui, creating 1000s of trade requests.

I'll argue that less people may go for the prime week because its easy to calculate a cost of points, and it can be seen that you have to pay using 2 years worth of points to get to Maui, as opposed to a float week where it doesn't cost more to try.  If I can clearly see its going to cost more in the form of increased points I can do the math and say it doesn't pay. With a owned float week, the owner says, hey no harm no foul, let's put in the request. To me the float model creates more demand for popular weeks because decisions in a points program will be made on cost not just a dream to buy low and trade high.


----------



## kjd

All this talk and anguish about a new internal trading system beginning June 1st?  We're getting close to the magic date and there's no sign of it.  "Informed insiders" who put out this rumor are silent while the rest of us speculate about what's behind the curtain.  Fifty-five pages and over 1,300 posts all about nothing.  Is this a joke?

The rumor could quite possibly be true.  I will believe it when and if it happens but find the entire discussion, when nothing is being presented by Marriott, rather inane.  Marriott recently renewed their agreement with Interval International. It would seem that action would be in conflict with Marriott offering an internal trading system of their own.

That fact doesn't seem to bother the speculators.  Right now no one seems to know much about anything including me.


----------



## PerryM

MOXJO7282 said:


> *This is no different than it is now with floating weeks*. Sales people sell the dream now by telling clients to buy Florida and trade into Maui, creating 1000s of trade requests.
> 
> I'll argue that less people may go for the prime week because its easy to calculate a cost of points, and it can be seen that you have to pay using 2 years worth of points to get to Maui, as opposed to a float week where it doesn't cost more to try.  If I can clearly see its going to cost more in the form of increased points I can do the math and say it doesn't pay. With a owned float week, the owner says, hey no harm no foul, let's put in the request. To me the float model creates more demand for popular weeks because decisions in a points program will be made on cost not just a dream to buy low and trade high.



Big, huge, humongous, (and something even bigger than that) difference:

NOW Marriott must have something in inventory to sell - want 4th of July in Maui and they MUST have a Platinum Maui week in inventory.

In June, Marriott doesn't need to have ANY Platinum Maui weeks to sell in order to sell them!  They will be selling Silver Branson weeks if they want.




kjd said:


> All this talk and anguish about a new internal trading system beginning June 1st?  We're getting close to the magic date and there's no sign of it.  "Informed insiders" who put out this rumor are silent while the rest of us speculate about what's behind the curtain.  Fifty-five pages and over 1,300 posts all about nothing.  Is this a joke?
> 
> The rumor could quite possibly be true.  I will believe it when and if it happens but find the entire discussion, when nothing is being presented by Marriott, rather inane.  Marriott recently renewed their agreement with Interval International. It would seem that action would be in conflict with Marriott offering an internal trading system of their own.
> 
> That fact doesn't seem to bother the speculators.  Right now no one seems to know much about anything including me.




Gee; Lost ended, and then 24 ended but I knew the drama would continue here at Tug.  That's the only thing keeping me going this spring...

Guys, it's called a chat-room for a reason....


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Big, huge, humongous, (and something even bigger than that) difference:
> 
> NOW Marriott must have something in inventory to sell - want 4th of July in Maui and they MUST have a Platinum Maui week in inventory.
> 
> In June, Marriott doesn't need to have ANY Platinum Maui weeks to sell.



This is both true and false. Marriott still has to have the inventory to sell. The difference is that all the inventory is converted to points and points are points. It doesn't matter if the points are in Branson or if the points are in Maui. If it's a trust, deed location no longer matters to either the buyer or the seller. All that matters to the buyer is that they have enough points to reserve the unit they want and that the unit they want is available. 

I'll give you an example. I own 7,000 points with Hilton. Those points are actually deeded in Las Vegas. If I want a NYE Hawaii Penthouse unit. all that is required of me is to have enough points available to reserve that unit AND that unit be available to reserve. 

DRI's trust makes it even easier. If you own trust points, you have no deed. All that's required is enough points to reserve the unit you desire. You can own the points outright or, you can save from one year and borrow from the next. All you need are the points. DRI doesn't even sell a particular resort. They sell points in packages of 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 or more depending on your needs. No deeds, no worries, just points.


----------



## davidvel

PerryM said:


> I probably won't join the new kids club but here is what I'm expecting:
> 
> Harder to make reservations - its me against the Marriott computer to snap up 4th of July week at Summit Watch


If Marriott uses its computers to snap up weeks for its system, and everyone else has to do it manually, there will be plenty of happy plaintiff lawyers. I'll be lead counsel.


----------



## PerryM

*That subtle little difference...*



dougp26364 said:


> This is both true and false. *Marriott still has to have the inventory to sell.* The difference is that all the inventory is converted to points and points are points. It doesn't matter if the points are in Branson or if the points are in Maui. If it's a trust, deed location no longer matters to either the buyer or the seller. All that matters to the buyer is that they have enough points to reserve the unit they want and that the unit they want is available.
> 
> I'll give you an example. I own 7,000 points with Hilton. Those points are actually deeded in Las Vegas. If I want a NYE Hawaii Penthouse unit. all that is required of me is to have enough points available to reserve that unit AND that unit be available to reserve.
> 
> DRI's trust makes it even easier. If you own trust points, you have no deed. All that's required is enough points to reserve the unit you desire. You can own the points outright or, you can save from one year and borrow from the next. All you need are the points. DRI doesn't even sell a particular resort. They sell points in packages of 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 or more depending on your needs. No deeds, no worries, just points.



I suggest another word:

Original: Marriott still has to have the inventory to sell.

Perry's: Marriott still has to have *ANY* inventory to sell.


----------



## PerryM

*Scrimshaw alert....*



davidvel said:


> If Marriott uses its computers to snap up weeks for its system, and everyone else has to do it manually, there will be plenty of happy plaintiff lawyers. I'll be lead counsel.



OK, how about 200 folks from Bangladesh - mouse fingers at the ready just waiting for the elephant to sound the alarm cry at 8:00:00 AM CST.

We don't stand a chance....


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> Big, huge, humongous, (and something even bigger than that) difference:
> 
> NOW Marriott must have something in inventory to sell - want 4th of July in Maui and they MUST have a Platinum Maui week in inventory.
> 
> In June, Marriott doesn't need to have ANY Platinum Maui weeks to sell in order to sell them!  They will be selling Silver Branson weeks if they want...


As I pointed out, this is the very nature of points systems, subject to the specific rules and any limitations such as home resort priority, etc.  In effect I read this as you are inherently against a deverloper selling a points system in any way because there is ALWAYS an element of the bronze point being bought to use at the Platinum time.  I realize your additional contention is this is a change midstream.  I look at it as if Marriott were cutting off the MVCI and starting a new system that was unrelated, something also well within their rights.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I suggest another word:
> 
> Original: Marriott still has to have the inventory to sell.
> 
> Perry's: Marriott still has to have *ANY* inventory to sell.



But, there still has to be enough points/inventory. Marriott can NOT just sell points without the inventory available to back it up. 

Now, you're right in that they'll be selling points in Branson with the idea that you can use those points to stay anywhere/anytime with one rule. You must have the points available to accomplish the vacations you plan. 

Selling timeshares has always been about selling dreams. It doesn't matter if they're selling you into a weeks program with the promise you can exchange your week for ANY week in the system or with Interval or, if they're selling you points that you can use to purchase your vacation within the system or through Interval. It's all the same and, like it or not, it's still going to be sold the same. That is the dream of the ideal vacations for life. Points/weeks makes not difference.

Points will do a couple of things.
1. Makes exchanging more transparent. You KNOW what's required rather than guessing if you have the exchange power.
2. Eliminates selling specific deeded weeks and specific seasons. You just sell points packages and people buy only what they need.

It has advantages for both buyer and seller.


----------



## Bill4728

Please remember the big down side of point based TS systems. Developers will often try to get a sale by selling a person the smallest point package ( therefore the cheapest) that the developer sells. So the person buying it is almost guaranteed to be disappointed with their purchase.

Therefore my rule on buying point based TS systems:  Be sure you buy enough pts to get the vacation you want. DO NOT UNDERBUY in a pt based TS system.


----------



## PerryM

*A corny answer....*



Dean said:


> As I pointed out, this is the very nature of points systems, subject to the specific rules and any limitations such as home resort priority, etc.  In effect I read this as you are inherently against a deverloper selling a points system in any way because there is ALWAYS an element of the bronze point being bought to use at the Platinum time.  I realize your additional contention is this is a change midstream.  I look at it as if Marriott were cutting off the MVCI and starting a new system that was unrelated, something also well within their rights.



It's one thing to start a timeshare company from scratch and make it Point based like Disney or WM.  It's something entirely different to sell weeks, let owners exchange reservations in II and then hijack those same weeks to use in a new Points sales scheme.

If Marriott wants to introduce a Point based exchange system like RedWeek or Resort2resort I have no problems with that at all - I'd shout for joy.

But that's NOT what Marriott seems to be doing - it used the exchange scheme to get fuel (reservations) for their sales engine.

It's very similar to ethanol - if you convert leaves and twigs and garbage into ethanol to fuel our cars that's OK with me.  But when you divert corn from human fuel to automobile fuel that's just a bad idea.

There are good fuel sources and bad fuel sources - Marriott seems to be taking our fuel (reservations) to make their new Point-based sales engine run. 

The current week-based timeshare system requires Marriott to buy their own fuel and not steal it from us.




dougp26364 said:


> But, there still has to be enough points/inventory. Marriott can NOT just sell points without the inventory available to back it up.
> 
> Now, you're right in that they'll be selling points in Branson with the idea that you can use those points to stay anywhere/anytime with one rule. You must have the points available to accomplish the vacations you plan.
> 
> Selling timeshares has always been about selling dreams. It doesn't matter if they're selling you into a weeks program with the promise you can exchange your week for ANY week in the system or with Interval or, if they're selling you points that you can use to purchase your vacation within the system or through Interval. It's all the same and, like it or not, it's still going to be sold the same. That is the dream of the ideal vacations for life. Points/weeks makes not difference.
> 
> Points will do a couple of things.
> 1. Makes exchanging more transparent. You KNOW what's required rather than guessing if you have the exchange power.
> 2. Eliminates selling specific deeded weeks and specific seasons. You just sell points packages and people buy only what they need.
> 
> It has advantages for both buyer and seller.



Some of you guys give Marriott the benefit of the doubt - they will be a good little timeshare developer.

Me, I just assume they will stab me in the back to make a buck or two - to each his/her own.


----------



## rpw

*take it for what it's worth*

But Marriott just waived ROFR on my Odd year Maui VILLA for $16,100.  Sounds like either they still don't have any money or they didn't want to buy back one of their new towers at what is arguably their most popular resort?


----------



## PerryM

rpw said:


> But Marriott just waived ROFR on my Odd year Maui VILLA for $16,100.  Sounds like either they still don't have any money or they didn't want to buy back one of their new towers at what is arguably their most popular resort?



Marriott probably has enough inventory of that unit and probably will just wait for falling prices after they unleash their new sales engine.


----------



## rickandcindy23

Swice said:


> This threat is awfully long!
> 
> Would the first person with the "real" information please start a new thread, "New system details" so that others don't have to wade through and get confused by the previous "speculation in this thread?"
> 
> :whoopie:



I don't believe the new system has rolled out quite yet.  Speculation is all we see here, but I am as anxious as anyone to see how this system will work, so I watch, waiting for a bit of fact.


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning!!!

This just makes Perry's point!!!  With the old "weeks" system if MVCI wanted to sell access to Maui Vilas they had to sell the "deed" to that week or a similar plat week with enough trading power with II to have a reasonable shot at "snagging" it.  Most of this inventory is already gone.  

With the points, they have to just sell enough combined points from their unsold inventory of "doggy" weeks to sell access to Maui without actually having the inventory!!!

I would like to hear from owners in other "point" systems to discover if they truly have access to prime inventory that is not their "home resort", in other words do DVC or HGVC owners need to be awake at 12:01 am at the onset of the 7 mos (or whatever) window..


----------



## PerryM

*Richly deserved?*



puckmanfl said:


> good morning!!!
> 
> This just makes Perry's point!!!  With the old "weeks" system if MVCI wanted to sell access to Maui Vilas they had to sell the "deed" to that week or a similar plat week with enough trading power with II to have a reasonable shot at "snagging" it.  Most of this inventory is already gone.
> 
> With the points, they have to just sell enough combined points from their unsold inventory of "doggy" weeks to sell access to Maui without actually having the inventory!!!
> 
> I would like to hear from owners in other "point" systems to discover if they truly have access to prime inventory that is not their "home resort", in other words do DVC or HGVC owners need to be awake at 12:01 am at the onset of the 7 mos (or whatever) window..



We own WM a 100% Point based system that I just love to death.

The problem with ALL Point based systems, and one that will be fun to watch Marriott address, is oversaturation of prime holiday weeks.

If you have young kids there are only 14 weeks a year you can vacation with them - the summer and maybe week51 and 52.  Week 7, President's week, has parents just yanking the kids out of school to go skiing.

So that's what Point based timeshare salesreps sell - only the holidays - to everyone!

Ok so now we approach New Year's week and all those folks who bought Points to go skiing or island hopping are itching to make a reservation.  Well you know what will happen - 2 seconds after the opening bell ALL the reservations are gone.

I will make you a bet - on the day for New Year's reservations to begin there will be NO inventory left - gone - nothing in the computer.  It was taken weeks ago by other, (more rich?) Marriott owners with Points to blow.

Right now Marriott allows 13 month reservations with 2 weeks of ownership but that won't mean a thing with Points.

In WM the solution is very simple - folks add 7 or 14 or more days in front of the real vacation and get 7 or 14 days at Galena Illinois in a cheap studio at the lowest possible Point charge - then they must pay for the Maui vacation in addition.

So what will Marriott do?  Probably won't have daily vacations so folks will be adding a 7-day reservation or 2 of them in front of the real vacation.

Solution - buy more Points of course....


----------



## taffy19

PerryM said:


> We own WM a 100% Point based system that I just love to death.
> 
> The problem with ALL Point based systems, and one that will be fun to watch Marriott address, is oversaturation of prime holiday weeks.
> 
> If you have young kids there are only 14 weeks a year you can vacation with them - the summer and maybe week51 and 52.  Week 7, President's week, has parents just yanking the kids out of school to go skiing.
> 
> So that's what Point based timeshare salesreps sell - only the holidays - to everyone!
> 
> Ok so now we approach New Year's week and all those folks who bought Points to go skiing or island hopping are itching to make a reservation.  Well you know what will happen - 2 seconds after the opening bell ALL the reservations are gone.
> 
> I will make you a bet - on the day for New Year's reservations to begin there will be NO inventory left - gone - nothing in the computer.  It was taken weeks ago by other, (more rich?) Marriott owners with Points to blow.
> 
> Right now Marriott allows 13 month reservations with 2 weeks of ownership but that won't mean a thing with Points.
> 
> In WM the solution is very simple - folks add 7 or 14 or more days in front of the real vacation and get 7 or 14 days at Galena Illinois in a cheap studio at the lowest possible Point charge - then they must pay for the Maui vacation in addition.
> 
> *So what will Marriott do?  Probably won't have daily vacations so folks will be adding a 7-day reservation or 2 of them in front of the real vacation.
> 
> Solution - buy more Points of course....*


Is there anything new here?  This is what people were doing before.  They bought extra weeks from the Marriott or on the re-sale market so they were able to reserve the week they really wanted earlier than the next person who owned less weeks.  The more points you buy, the more perks you will get, I believe.

The difference may be that you will have to buy the extra points through the Marriott only as they may not be worth much on the re-sale market because the extra perks that make your purchase more valuable do not transfer with a re-sale.

All the developers want us to buy through them and not through their competition which is the re-sale market today.  More consumers are getting educated so they will have to come up with something that gives them the upper hand.  When the floating system was introduced, it was supposedly to make it a more flexible system but, in reality, it is to their advantage and not ours because they can keep changing the system constantly and it will always cost us more money.  That's for sure.


----------



## jin

puckmanfl said:


> good morning!!!
> 
> This just makes Perry's point!!!  With the old "weeks" system if MVCI wanted to sell access to Maui Vilas they had to sell the "deed" to that week or a similar plat week with enough trading power with II to have a reasonable shot at "snagging" it.  Most of this inventory is already gone.
> 
> With the points, they have to just sell enough combined points from their unsold inventory of "doggy" weeks to sell access to Maui without actually having the inventory!!!
> 
> I would like to hear from owners in other "point" systems to discover if they truly have access to prime inventory that is not their "home resort", in other words do DVC or HGVC owners need to be awake at 12:01 am at the onset of the 7 mos (or whatever) window..



I'm a HGVC owner, and can get prime inventory at all of Hilton's main locations so long as I plan 9 mos out, except sometimes Oahu, where I may need to be on the computer at 12:01... For many locations, I can get prime weeks much less than 9 mos out. Pete


----------



## Janette

As a Disney owner, I have had no trouble getting the times and resorts that I want with my points. I haven't stayed in my home resort since I bought the points. Yes, we've stayed in the new Bay Lake Towers with Magic Kingdom view. Disney points have worked for us. We have booked studios, one and two bedrooms.


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening...

Thanks for the replies...  This makes me feel better!!!


----------



## timeos2

*It just works much better*



puckmanfl said:


> good morning!!!
> 
> This just makes Perry's point!!!  With the old "weeks" system if MVCI wanted to sell access to Maui Vilas they had to sell the "deed" to that week or a similar plat week with enough trading power with II to have a reasonable shot at "snagging" it.  Most of this inventory is already gone.
> 
> With the points, they have to just sell enough combined points from their unsold inventory of "doggy" weeks to sell access to Maui without actually having the inventory!!!
> 
> I would like to hear from owners in other "point" systems to discover if they truly have access to prime inventory that is not their "home resort", in other words do DVC or HGVC owners need to be awake at 12:01 am at the onset of the 7 mos (or whatever) window..



NO NO NO! We belong to three points based systems, all have at some time in the past been weeks based. We have easily obtained the best (be they location, newest, largest, view, whatever) with no home advantage OR "elite" type status. Just a regular poinmts owner, using their point as they wish for what they want in the size/location/date they want with no special phoning or web reservation at XX:XX AM on the 1st day - we just called/logged on made the request, paid the needed points and enjoyed our vacations.  Unlike weeks where the nonsense of only getting your exact ownership or size or whatever rules with points people are free to plan what they REALY want and carefully allot points - not take the biggest & best because they they only get one crack at the pool. Use naturally gets spred out & owners are happy getting what they want for the lowest possible points leaving more for later. Its a totally different mentality that works MUCH better than weeks. 

Once you see it work you'll wonder why they waited so long to offer a far superior way to use multiple resorts/locations without a third party cost like II.


----------



## puckmanfl

cool beans...

this is what I am looking for...

some positive experiences on the other side of the fence!!

Jon.. I appreciate your input!!!


----------



## PerryM

*%#$&@^( new system.....*



iconnections said:


> *Is there anything new here?*  This is what people were doing before.  They bought extra weeks from the Marriott or on the re-sale market so they were able to reserve the week they really wanted earlier than the next person who owned less weeks.  The more points you buy, the more perks you will get, I believe.
> 
> The difference may be that you will have to buy the extra points through the Marriott only as they may not be worth much on the re-sale market because the extra perks that make your purchase more valuable do not transfer with a re-sale.
> 
> All the developers want us to buy through them and not through their competition which is the re-sale market today.  More consumers are getting educated so they will have to come up with something that gives them the upper hand.  When the floating system was introduced, it was supposedly to make it a more flexible system but, in reality, it is to their advantage and not ours because they can keep changing the system constantly and it will always cost us more money.  That's for sure.



Not really but will the Marriott salesrep sell more Points than a reservation requires?

E.g. Week 52 at MountainSide costs 60,000 Points - will the salesrep sell a 60,000 Point package or fess up and tell the new owner that getting that week will be impossible with 60,000 Points?  Will he then have to sell a 30,000 Point package which will allow a Branson week to be added in front of the MountainSide?

Right now it's no big deal since week 52 is a Platinum Plus Holiday week there and other Platinum owners can't get that week.  That will instantly change with the new program.

Our week 52 MountainSide owner joins the new program and then finds out that there is no way in hell to get back to MountainSide for week 52 or week 52 in Maui or any other hot location with 60,000 Points.  He needs to buy more Points to get a "like for like" reservation.

So will Marriott owners realize this as they buy memberships and deposit their hot holiday weeks?  That same salesrep who sold our first new owner 90,000 Points to get to a 60,000 Point reservation - will he tell the week 52 owner that in addition to paying to convert his week 52 he needs to buy 30,000 more Points to get back to MountainSide for New Years?

Ohhhhhhhhhhh - I can almost hear the swearing on the Marriott hot line 

This new sales scheme is going to be a winner for Marriott, but what about the 400,000 owners?

I can't put together any scenarios where the owners actually benefit from this scheme - we just get screwed...


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> It's one thing to start a timeshare company from scratch and make it Point based like Disney or WM.  It's something entirely different to sell weeks, let owners exchange reservations in II and then hijack those same weeks to use in a new Points sales scheme.
> 
> If Marriott wants to introduce a Point based exchange system like RedWeek or Resort2resort I have no problems with that at all - I'd shout for joy.
> 
> But that's NOT what Marriott seems to be doing - it used the exchange scheme to get fuel (reservations) for their sales engine.
> 
> It's very similar to ethanol - if you convert leaves and twigs and garbage into ethanol to fuel our cars that's OK with me.  But when you divert corn from human fuel to automobile fuel that's just a bad idea.
> 
> There are good fuel sources and bad fuel sources - Marriott seems to be taking our fuel (reservations) to make their new Point-based sales engine run.
> 
> The current week-based timeshare system requires Marriott to buy their own fuel and not steal it from us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of you guys give Marriott the benefit of the doubt - they will be a good little timeshare developer.
> 
> Me, I just assume they will stab me in the back to make a buck or two - to each his/her own.



If not for the fact we participate in DRI's points based internal exchange system, I'd agree with you about concerns over indtroducing a points based system along with a weeks based system. But, DRI makes it work. In fact, DRI's system is even more convulted than what Marriott is proposing in that they have deeded weeks, deeded weeks that have joined the points based system but kept the deeds and trust based ownerships that have no deeds or home resorts. Oddly enough, the system works and it works very well IMHO. 

Now, considering that there is a silent partnership between DRI and Marriott and one has to wonder how much of the DRI system Marriott will incorperate? Grand Chateau was suppose to be a DRI timeshare before they stuck a deal with Marriott that allowed Marriott to brand the resort in the Marriott name. I don't know how deep the partnership runs but, I wouldn't have trouble believing that DRI would assist Marriott......for a price......with the developement of a new internal system. I would never expect it to mimic DRI's system perfectly but, I can see that being used as a foundation. There's nothing better than using a successful system as a foundation if possible rather than start from scratch.


----------



## scrapngen

dougp26364 said:


> If not for the fact we participate in DRI's points based internal exchange system, I'd agree with you about concerns over indtroducing a points based system along with a weeks based system. But, DRI makes it work. In fact, DRI's system is even more convulted than what Marriott is proposing in that they have deeded weeks, deeded weeks that have joined the points based system but kept the deeds and trust based ownerships that have no deeds or home resorts. Oddly enough, the system works and it works very well IMHO.
> 
> Now, considering that there is a silent partnership between DRI and Marriott and one has to wonder how much of the DRI system Marriott will incorperate? Grand Chateau was suppose to be a DRI timeshare before they stuck a deal with Marriott that allowed Marriott to brand the resort in the Marriott name. I don't know how deep the partnership runs but, I wouldn't have trouble believing that DRI would assist Marriott......for a price......with the developement of a new internal system. I would never expect it to mimic DRI's system perfectly but, I can see that being used as a foundation. There's nothing better than using a successful system as a foundation if possible rather than start from scratch.



WOW!! It took the #1389th post for someone to suggest that it might be like DRI. A new idea in this thread!!   Not that I know anything about DRI, but this is - to my knowledge - the first time someone has speculated this angle.


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> good morning!!!
> 
> This just makes Perry's point!!!  With the old "weeks" system if MVCI wanted to sell access to Maui Vilas they had to sell the "deed" to that week or a similar plat week with enough trading power with II to have a reasonable shot at "snagging" it.  Most of this inventory is already gone.
> 
> With the points, they have to just sell enough combined points from their unsold inventory of "doggy" weeks to sell access to Maui without actually having the inventory!!!
> 
> I would like to hear from owners in other "point" systems to discover if they truly have access to prime inventory that is not their "home resort", in other words do DVC or HGVC owners need to be awake at 12:01 am at the onset of the 7 mos (or whatever) window..



I've posted more than once about my experience with both HGVC and DRI's points based systems. I can make the reservations I want considerably EASIER than the deposit and hope method with the weeks system Marriott employ's. PLUS, there's NO WASTE in trade power. I only pay for what I use. No more trading a 2 bedroom for a 1 bedroom. No more trading a Platinum season for a Gold season. You pay for what you use. You can also pay for and reserve the view you want. With Marriott, as it stands now, I can pretty much count on not getting a premium view.  

With DRI I have very little problem getting a Hawaiian week if I want it so lone as it's a DRI managed resort. With Hilton I can usually get weeks but, I might not be able to get the exact unit style/size/view I want. The premium views are not always available with either HGVC or with DRI. DRI has a lot more ocean view or ocean front units available than does Hilton.

Hilton has been employing the technique Perry is most concerned about. That is selling hawaii to people buying in Vegas and Orlando. Without fail any time I've sat through an owners update I've heard a salesman introduce a new sale in Vegas as so-and-so just bought X number of points and they're going to Hawaii. The problem with Hilton is they have built far more units in Vegas and Orlando than can feasably exchange into Hawaii. Hilton, to it's credit, has been building more units on Oahu and the Big Island. 

DRI, on the other hand, has never proven to have an issue with inventory except when it's with one of the affiliated resorts. The affiliates have limited inventory available for exchange. It looks nice because they can advertise more resorts than they've either built or manage but, it's not realistic. I have no problems seeing availability for almost any week I want to travel with resorts managed by DRI.


----------



## dougp26364

scrapngen said:


> WOW!! It took the #1389th post for someone to suggest that it might be like DRI. A new idea in this thread!!   Not that I know anything about DRI, but this is - to my knowledge - the first time someone has speculated this angle.



I think somewhere in the past I've speculated about this but, it may have been covered by a thousand posts all concerned about how Marriott was going to screw oweners over. Or, maybe I just thought about it and figured it wasn't worth posting.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> We own WM a 100% Point based system that I just love to death.
> 
> The problem with ALL Point based systems, and one that will be fun to watch Marriott address, is oversaturation of prime holiday weeks.
> 
> If you have young kids there are only 14 weeks a year you can vacation with them - the summer and maybe week51 and 52.  Week 7, President's week, has parents just yanking the kids out of school to go skiing.
> 
> So that's what Point based timeshare salesreps sell - only the holidays - to everyone!
> 
> Ok so now we approach New Year's week and all those folks who bought Points to go skiing or island hopping are itching to make a reservation.  Well you know what will happen - 2 seconds after the opening bell ALL the reservations are gone.
> 
> I will make you a bet - on the day for New Year's reservations to begin there will be NO inventory left - gone - nothing in the computer.  It was taken weeks ago by other, (more rich?) Marriott owners with Points to blow.
> 
> Right now Marriott allows 13 month reservations with 2 weeks of ownership but that won't mean a thing with Points.
> 
> In WM the solution is very simple - folks add 7 or 14 or more days in front of the real vacation and get 7 or 14 days at Galena Illinois in a cheap studio at the lowest possible Point charge - then they must pay for the Maui vacation in addition.
> 
> So what will Marriott do?  Probably won't have daily vacations so folks will be adding a 7-day reservation or 2 of them in front of the real vacation.
> 
> Solution - buy more Points of course....



This happens with Marriot as well. Ask any NCV owner who needs a summer week.

But with Marriott and their weeks based system, there's a rub. Marriott doesn't control inventory. There are owners who believe the MUST have the highest exchange power available or they just won't get the exchange they want. So you have owners reserving high demand weeks, just to exchange them. That precious inventory is LOST to all the rest of the Marriott owners who own at that resort. 

With a points based system, management controls inventory. Owners who want to reserve and stay at their home resorts get first dibs. Then all other owners in the system and finally inventory is released for all other exchangers outside the system. I've found that with Hyatt's system, I pretty much have to wait until the 6 month mark to confirm an exchange. 

Those who want to exchange with Interval exchange points. Points are points and have a fixed value. No more losing all the high demand inventory just for exchanges. It also makes those that want prime weeks in Marriott's system buy into the system. 

Now Marriott and all other points based systems will have some sort of agreement that so many high value weeks, so many medium value weeks and so many low value weeks will be given to Interval. There has to be some way for Interval to set a value on points and this appears to be how it's done.

I have NO problem getting high demand weeks at my home resorts with Hilton or DRI. But with Marriott, if I want either Memorial Day week or Thanksgiving week at Ocean Pointe, I'd better be on the phone when the reservations open. To many Silver season owners want those weeks to exchange feeling they MUST have the highest demand week for exchange. That shorts owners at Ocean Pointe who actually want to reserve that week for vacation.


----------



## dougp26364

iconnections said:


> Is there anything new here?  This is what people were doing before.  They bought extra weeks from the Marriott or on the re-sale market so they were able to reserve the week they really wanted earlier than the next person who owned less weeks.  The more points you buy, the more perks you will get, I believe.
> 
> The difference may be that you will have to buy the extra points through the Marriott only as they may not be worth much on the re-sale market because the extra perks that make your purchase more valuable do not transfer with a re-sale.
> 
> All the developers want us to buy through them and not through their competition which is the re-sale market today.  More consumers are getting educated so they will have to come up with something that gives them the upper hand.  When the floating system was introduced, it was supposedly to make it a more flexible system but, in reality, it is to their advantage and not ours because they can keep changing the system constantly and it will always cost us more money.  That's for sure.



Perry is focused on Marriott screwing owners over to make a buck. Maybe he's right. I don't think so because Marriott has treated owners pretty well over the years. 

I own in two points based systems plus two resorts managed by Marriott and two Managed by Southwind. By far the easiest for us to use and get the most value out of are the two points based systems. There are tricks to points based systems and, those that bought with Marriott just to exchange might find their purchases don't work as well in a points based system. 

Perry bought a Gold week at a good resort and has been successful in exchanging up into more expensive weeks. That's may (or may not) come to a end with Marriott's new internal system. It's my opinion the crying the sky is falling before the new system is announced is a waste of breath. We just don't know what these changes will bring. It could be a really bad deal or it could be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Since we bought our weeks to use, I'm not worried. I have a contract that guarentee's I can use one week in my season each year. I bought to use. That makes this easier, and more interesting, for me.


----------



## MOXJO7282

PerryM said:


> I suggest another word:
> 
> Original: Marriott still has to have the inventory to sell.
> 
> Perry's: Marriott still has to have *ANY* inventory to sell.



In the current model you're suggesting they need Maui inventory to sell which they don't, all they need is any low ball inventory to sell the dream now. with a points system it will be very clear that you need to purchase enough points for Hawaii, which will be more than most people will want to pay, so less will go for Hawaii. And if they have to borrow from the next year than that next year they won't be putting in another request for Hawaii because they will need more points


----------



## taffy19

dougp26364 said:


> Perry is focused on Marriott screwing owners over to make a buck. Maybe he's right. I don't think so because Marriott has treated owners pretty well over the years.
> 
> I own in two points based systems plus two resorts managed by Marriott and two Managed by Southwind. By far the easiest for us to use and get the most value out of are the two points based systems. There are tricks to points based systems and, those that bought with Marriott just to exchange might find their purchases don't work as well in a points based system.
> 
> Perry bought a Gold week at a good resort and has been successful in exchanging up into more expensive weeks. That's may (or may not) come to a end with Marriott's new internal system. It's my opinion the crying the sky is falling before the new system is announced is a waste of breath. We just don't know what these changes will bring. It could be a really bad deal or it could be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Since we bought our weeks to use, I'm not worried. I have a contract that guarentee's I can use one week in my season each year. I bought to use. That makes this easier, and more interesting, for me.


I hardly believe that the Marriott wants to upset their whole customer base but there have to be two complete different systems as I see it. The week owners have to be able to reserve a week at their home resort in the season they bought and with the view that came with the deed. This is their right.

We own at a little resort that has deeded weeks with only two seasons and no view category. A few years later, they started converting some owners to the point system with RCI. The owners of the deeded weeks can book their full week or two partial weeks 13 months out and after that the point owners can reserve the weeks or partial weeks that are left over. The best weeks are already long gone so people are not happy with the point system at all nor will they ever get a view unit because they are all gone in a few minutes 13 months out.

The people, who do not convert, should always keep the right to book a full week at their Marriott home resort. I wonder if they will get a head start too like it is with our little independent timeshare resort. How else can they do it unless they have two complete separate inventories?

The new system has to be an awful lot better for people to make the switch. I have a feeling that the maintenance fees will be quite a bit lower at some of the resorts where they are very high right now so that will entice some people to make the switch if the conversion fee isn't too high either.

Who knows, it may be the best system in the industry from here on and the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. We won't have to wait much longer to find out what it will be. It's going to be interesting.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> It's one thing to start a timeshare company from scratch and make it Point based like Disney or WM.  It's something entirely different to sell weeks, let owners exchange reservations in II and then hijack those same weeks to use in a new Points sales scheme.
> 
> If Marriott wants to introduce a Point based exchange system like RedWeek or Resort2resort I have no problems with that at all - I'd shout for joy.
> 
> But that's NOT what Marriott seems to be doing - it used the exchange scheme to get fuel (reservations) for their sales engine.


Perry to hold that Marriott can't stop one system where it's at and start another is unrealistic, IMO.  Wyndham (FF), Bluegreen to a degree and others, have converted from one to another over the years.  Marriott took over other resorts to get a stake in the timeshare world, some of those HP owners are still not happy about it.  Plus, as I've noted, they can only access the inventory they own and that people give up to convert, assumine they perform ethically of course, so realistically no raiding would occur.  However, I would agree that a system like redweeks or Hyatt where you have the underlying week or get pointgs is one option with merit.  The problem is that that type of system still pretty much limits you to a full week type of approach and prevents one of the largest benefits of points, flexibility.  



puckmanfl said:


> cool beans...
> 
> this is what I am looking for...
> 
> some positive experiences on the other side of the fence!!
> 
> Jon.. I appreciate your input!!!



We own with DVC, RCI points and Bluegreen plus an individual resort that works on points as well as owning multiple Marriott weeks.  We enjoy them all for what we use them for.  Overall Bluegreen has been the best value but we have gotten the best vacation and exchange options out of Marriott and lover staying with DVC.  The thing about even the best MVCI points option (whatever that is) is that it will help some and hurt others if they participate, it WILL NOT be neutral to everyone.  And any change will likely hurt the options of those of us who own trading weeks the most, at least in the long term, esp if we don't convert at least those units.  While it might raise the trade power, I'm betting it will remove the II 24 day preference and significantly reduce the options of trading in to other Marriotts both due to loss of the internal trade perference and the reduction in inventory. Plus what's ideal for you might not be ideal for me.

My perfect system would be one where the entire current system was converted to points, gave me the option of reserving the weeks I currently do but then give secondary options for additional weeks to complement what I now use and for other travels to Marriotts I don't own at like Maui using the points from my "trading" weeks.  This would require not only a home resort priority but a view and season priority OR the option of reserving my current weeks independent of the points system similar to the way Bluegreen does.


----------



## dougp26364

iconnections said:


> I hardly believe that the Marriott wants to upset their whole customer base but there have to be two complete different systems as I see it. The week owners have to be able to reserve a week at their home resort in the season they bought and with the view that came with the deed. This is their right.
> 
> We own at a little resort that has deeded weeks with only two seasons and no view category. A few years later, they started converting some owners to the point system with RCI. The owners of the deeded weeks can book their full week or two partial weeks 13 months out and after that the point owners can reserve the weeks or partial weeks that are left over. The best weeks are already long gone so people are not happy with the point system at all nor will they ever get a view unit because they are all gone in a few minutes 13 months out.
> 
> The people, who do not convert, should always keep the right to book a full week at their Marriott home resort. I wonder if they will get a head start too like it is with our little independent timeshare resort. How else can they do it unless they have two complete separate inventories?
> 
> The new system has to be an awful lot better for people to make the switch. I have a feeling that the maintenance fees will be quite a bit lower at some of the resorts where they are very high right now so that will entice some people to make the switch if the conversion fee isn't too high either.
> 
> Who knows, it may be the best system in the industry from here on and the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. We won't have to wait much longer to find out what it will be. It's going to be interesting.



All I can say in reply is the DRI has no less than three different systems in play at the same time. Trust based owners, who can reserve a unit in their particular trust at 13 months, deeded owners converted to points who can reserve their home resort at 12 months and deeded weeks based owners who can reserve their units at 12 months. All inventory is kept seperate and no one has an issue getting a week/view at their home resort as far as I've been able to tell. As a deeded owner in the points program, I have had no problems and, it's been easier than exchanging in Marriott's current system. It's been MUCH easier. 

The problem owners at the small resort may be having is that it's a small resort and you're dealing with RCI points, not an internal systems points. Marriott has 50 resorts with a couple of new ones opening soon. Inventory should not be an issue with Marriott. I am a little nervous about the first couple of years and being able to see inventory in all 50 Marriott resorts but, I'll have to wait to see what the plan looks like and how Marriott has addressed whatever concerns I might have.


----------



## PerryM

*Marriott marching to ultimate victory....*

Marriott why not introduce your hot new scheme in 2 phases:

June 2010
Release ONLY an internal exchange system for Marriott owners; keep hawking weeks.  Charge $99 to join and $99 per exchange.  Open to all - don't need the timeshare gestapo figuring out where an owner decided to buy their week.  (Checking their papers....)

June 2011
Stop selling weeks and start selling Points.  

See how simple this is.


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## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Marriott why not introduce your hot new scheme in 2 phases:
> 
> June 2010
> Release ONLY an internal exchange system for Marriott owners; keep hawking weeks.  Charge $99 to join and $99 per exchange.  Open to all - don't need the timeshare gestapo figuring out where an owner decided to buy their week.  (Checking their papers....)
> 
> June 2011
> Stop selling weeks and start selling Points.
> 
> See how simple this is.



And since all we have right now is rampent speculation, who says that Marriott isn't going to do something similar? It's those that have been whipping everyone into a frenzy about how owners are going to be screwed without even knowing the details. 

Until proven otherwise, I prefer to have a positive outlook on any new system. The weeks system is outdated. Marriott will have to change and adapt to keep up or all the other systems out there will begin to look better to buyers. Starwood, Hilton and Disney have converted to points long ago. So many have moved to points that's remaining in a weeks based system almost doesn't make any sense. It's been a long time coming for Marriott to convert. They haven't converted yet but there's enough out there for us to believe they're about to. The only thing that makes anyone worry is the fear of the unknown. There is no reason to fear the unknown. It's like being afraid of the dark.


----------



## jcjl1

*Kauai Lagoons Sales Presentation*

Attended a sales presentation on Wednesday and of course, there was little that would be said of the new program.  The only facts confirmed:

1.  All sales beginning 6/16 will be in the new program
2.  No more EOY
3.  Current developer bought will be able to get in


Anything else, they sheepishly would not comment on.


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## puckmanfl

good afternoon

Let me make sure I have this correct!!!  A sales rep tries to get you to fork over $50K for a Lagoons week.  Then he/she tells you that in 3 weeks the rules change and we can't tell you much about it!!!  Yikes...  Sounds like they should just stop the tours now!!!  I feel for the sales force as this has got to be extremely awkward and un-fun for them!!!


----------



## PerryM

*Mother Marriott*



dougp26364 said:


> And since all we have right now is rampent speculation, who says that Marriott isn't going to do something similar? It's those that have been whipping everyone into a frenzy about how owners are going to be screwed without even knowing the details.
> 
> Until proven otherwise, I prefer to have a positive outlook on any new system. The weeks system is outdated. Marriott will have to change and adapt to keep up or all the other systems out there will begin to look better to buyers. Starwood, Hilton and Disney have converted to points long ago. So many have moved to points that's remaining in a weeks based system almost doesn't make any sense. It's been a long time coming for Marriott to convert. They haven't converted yet but there's enough out there for us to believe they're about to. *The only thing that makes anyone worry is the fear of the unknown. There is no reason to fear the unknown. It's like being afraid of the dark*.



Kind of like Wall St reform, health care reform, off shore drilling reform - just sit back and Mother will take care of this for us.

Me, I take a skeptical outlook and assume I'm going to get screwed......


----------



## PerryM

*Am I a grandfather or not?*



jcjl1 said:


> Attended a sales presentation on Wednesday and of course, there was little that would be said of the new program.  The only facts confirmed:
> 
> 1.  All sales beginning 6/16 will be in the new program
> 2.  No more EOY
> 3.  Current developer bought will be able to get in
> 
> 
> Anything else, they sheepishly would not comment on.


*
All sales beginning 6/16 will be in the new program*

Which year?
On 6/16 "Marriott weeks" is a thing of the past - like 60% resale to developer pricing - what will resales be quoted in?  Weeks or Points which can't be sold or bought resale?


*No more EOY*

Can't "bank" Points to next year?
EOY folks take a hike with the new system?
EOY resale - what happens to you?

*Current developer bought will be able to get in*

What's current?  Starting 6/17/10?
Existing Resale weeks - are they current on 6/15/10?
My resale Gold week has no home anymore?
Am I a grandfather on that day?  Will I be able to join if I wanted to?

Like with most rumors they just embellish themselves each cycle and are harder to understand.


----------



## jcjl1

*Kauai Lagoons Presentation*

Most tour couples do not know the currnt system and all are being sold the current system.  Since we are TUGers, we know that something is afoot and this differentiates us from the rest of the crowd.  Yes, it was uncomfortable for the sales rep but how many TUGers are coming through each day?  Not many I presume.  Just her unfortunate luck.

Lagoons is being sold right now as real estate with a deed.  6/16 and beyond it will be as points as will all properties.  

PS - Lagoons current inventory is 65% sold out, offers the "Founders Club" benefit of 2 rounds of golf per day for a week for the first 10 years.  I was shown a sales directive stating that it was going away with the 6/16 date and would not be extended under any circumstances.

Just thought everyone should hear the current line.  Don't shoot the messenger!


----------



## BocaBum99

jcjl1 said:


> Most tour couples do not know the currnt system and all are being sold the current system.  Since we are TUGers, we know that something is afoot and this differentiates us from the rest of the crowd.  Yes, it was uncomfortable for the sales rep but how many TUGers are coming through each day?  Not many I presume.  Just her unfortunate luck.
> 
> Lagoons is being sold right now as real estate with a deed.  6/16 and beyond it will be as points as will all properties.
> 
> PS - Lagoons current inventory is 65% sold out, offers the "Founders Club" benefit of 2 rounds of golf per day for a week for the first 10 years.  I was shown a sales directive stating that it was going away with the 6/16 date and would not be extended under any circumstances.
> 
> Just thought everyone should hear the current line.  Don't shoot the messenger!



Most tours are owner updates.  So, tours definitely know about the current system.


----------



## PerryM

*Call for Mr Rumor...*



jcjl1 said:


> Most tour couples do not know the currnt system and all are being sold the current system.  Since we are TUGers, we know that something is afoot and this differentiates us from the rest of the crowd.  Yes, it was uncomfortable for the sales rep but how many TUGers are coming through each day?  Not many I presume.  Just her unfortunate luck.
> 
> Lagoons is being sold right now as real estate with a deed.  6/16 and beyond it will be as points as will all properties.
> 
> PS - Lagoons current inventory is 65% sold out, offers the "Founders Club" benefit of 2 rounds of golf per day for a week for the first 10 years.  I was shown a sales directive stating that it was going away with the 6/16 date and would not be extended under any circumstances.
> 
> Just thought everyone should hear the current line.  *Don't shoot the messenger!*



Nothing I said was directed at you - sorry if that was the impression.

I was addressing Mr Rumor....


----------



## Mamianka

jcjl1 said:


> Attended a sales presentation on Wednesday and of course, there was little that would be said of the new program.  The only facts confirmed:
> 
> 1.  All sales beginning 6/16 will be in the new program
> 2.  No more EOY
> 3.  Current developer bought will be able to get in
> 
> 
> Anything else, they sheepishly would not comment on.



We attended a similar presentation at MGC this past Monday.  Told same thing - they will be *closed for retraining* that week.  There will be no more EOY for sale by Marriott, except for any resales that they are handling for owners who turned them in for Marriott to sell.  Again, no particulars on the program content and proposed changes.  There MUST be some kind of window of grace period in which owners can get their ducks in a row - there is no steel wall that closes on 6/16. I would think.  Not overly concerned about this - have to wait and see before I get my undies in a bunch. I know that there are some real hardcore Marriott owners, but this is hardly all that we do - had a full life before, and could live without this if need be.  I a few weeks, we'll know more.

Oops - forgot to say that Marriott is leaving II, and there will be no more Marriott Getaways posted there.  Too bad - there were some nice deals if you could grab them.  II will be left with not a whole lot of quality when Marriott goes - as the salespeople said, a lot of Marriott owners do most of their trading into other Marriotts anyway - we sure do.  We don't anticipate staying in II - everything they offer, we can get someplace else, better and cheaper.


----------



## billymach4

Mamianka said:


> Oops - forgot to say that Marriott is leaving II, and there will be no more Marriott Getaways posted there.  Too bad - there were some nice deals if you could grab them.  II will be left with not a whole lot of quality when Marriott goes - as the salespeople said, a lot of Marriott owners do most of their trading into other Marriotts anyway - we sure do.  We don't anticipate staying in II - everything they offer, we can get someplace else, better and cheaper.



That is a pretty big bold "oops" statement. If the salestrash told you this then it is untrue.


----------



## dualrated2

*Also told about Interval*



billymach4 said:


> That is a pretty big bold "oops" statement. If the salestrash told you this then it is untrue.



I was told the same thing last week at Shadow Ridge.


----------



## Corky

Is it a positive that Marriott is leaving II????  Loved those getaways.  Where will we find deals like that in the future?

What happens to the special Marriott owner phone line?


----------



## davidvel

PerryM said:


> OK, how about 200 folks from Bangladesh - mouse fingers at the ready just waiting for the elephant to sound the alarm cry at 8:00:00 AM CST.
> 
> We don't stand a chance....



Same as my prior comment. Slam dunk.


----------



## billymach4

Marriott can getaway from the II "getaways" not a problem.

But if they pull the rug out from under the II privileges then they will instantly devalue all of the owner weeks out there. I say this because the owner base will be so infuriated and dump their weeks on the open market. 

The value of Marriott TS's will plummet to nearly $1 ebay price. Marriott is not stupid.

The one exception being if they extend the same privileges to ALL current owners in their "so called rumored internal/ points system".

Marriott is not going to remove our interval priority.


----------



## PerryM

*SNAP goes the weasel...*



Mamianka said:


> We attended a similar presentation at MGC this past Monday.  Told same thing - they will be *closed for retraining* that week.  There will be no more EOY for sale by Marriott, except for any resales that they are handling for owners who turned them in for Marriott to sell.  Again, no particulars on the program content and proposed changes.  There MUST be some kind of window of grace period in which owners can get their ducks in a row - there is no steel wall that closes on 6/16. I would think.  Not overly concerned about this - have to wait and see before I get my undies in a bunch. I know that there are some real hardcore Marriott owners, but this is hardly all that we do - had a full life before, and could live without this if need be.  I a few weeks, we'll know more.
> 
> *Oops - forgot to say that Marriott is leaving II, and there will be no more Marriott Getaways posted there.*  Too bad - there were some nice deals if you could grab them.  II will be left with not a whole lot of quality when Marriott goes - as the salespeople said, a lot of Marriott owners do most of their trading into other Marriotts anyway - we sure do.  We don't anticipate staying in II - everything they offer, we can get someplace else, better and cheaper.



Marriott just resigned with II just a month or so ago.  The sales weasel got his tail caught in the truth trap.

Marriott can't go 100% internal - folks will want to convert Points to II exchanges and the other way must be open too.  II folks will be exchanging into the new exchange system in Marriott.

So how much more of the rumor is bogus - 2 weeks will reveal the answers.

P.S.

Does the 24-day, Marriott only II exchange window die on 6/16/10?

If so there should be a moment of silence at 8:00 AM CST that morning....

Then there is the sticky problem of what will a Marriott week be worth in terms of II trading power?  Marriott will turn over a basket of reservations that are Platinum down to Bronze and a generic Marriott week will represent ALL Marriott units - thus lower quality and trading power.  

II will probably treat those of us who can lock in a juicy week and turn that over much higher than those Point owners who turn over a mutt.  So II hopefully will create 2 types of Marriott exchanges - Points and weeks.  If they don't then we, that don't join, will get screwed.

That's my guess.


----------



## taffy19

dougp26364 said:


> All I can say in reply is the DRI has no less than three different systems in play at the same time. Trust based owners, who can reserve a unit in their particular trust at 13 months, deeded owners converted to points who can reserve their home resort at 12 months and deeded weeks based owners who can reserve their units at 12 months. All inventory is kept seperate and no one has an issue getting a week/view at their home resort as far as I've been able to tell. As a deeded owner in the points program, I have had no problems and, it's been easier than exchanging in Marriott's current system. It's been MUCH easier.
> 
> The problem owners at the small resort may be having is that it's a small resort and you're dealing with RCI points, not an internal systems points. Marriott has 50 resorts with a couple of new ones opening soon. Inventory should not be an issue with Marriott. I am a little nervous about the first couple of years and being able to see inventory in all 50 Marriott resorts but, I'll have to wait to see what the plan looks like and how Marriott has addressed whatever concerns I might have.


That sounds like a complicated system with three complete different inventories. A good computer program should be able to handle that even with the constant changes because people are converting most likely daily from here on.

I still don't like to see that the deeded owners, who don't want to convert, have a later date to make reservations. None of us expected the program to change one day but they can make these changes with a floating time system as several have done so already. Let's hope that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages so the new system may end up being better.

I remember reading that there was a big problem once with someone who owns an oceanfront unit at one of your resorts but didn't get it. Were they rented out by the resort? They have no right to do that. I realize that your resort changed names and ownership several times so that may have added to the confusion.

We don't have that problem with the Marriott but will they give point owners a head start with the best weeks and views? That would make many week owners, who do not want to switch, very unhappy. You almost have no choice then but to make the switch. I am only speculating as nobody knows yet what will happen.


----------



## Dean

Mamianka said:


> Oops - forgot to say that Marriott is leaving II, and there will be no more Marriott Getaways posted there.  Too bad - there were some nice deals if you could grab them.  II will be left with not a whole lot of quality when Marriott goes - as the salespeople said, a lot of Marriott owners do most of their trading into other Marriotts anyway - we sure do.  We don't anticipate staying in II - everything they offer, we can get someplace else, better and cheaper.


Sounds like sales lies though there may be a bit of truth there.  While I don't believe that the value of what current owners have means anything to MVCI, nor that it should, I don't see how Marriott owners would lose access to II, those resorts who had access to RCI before still do.  But they could take away the reduced fees and 24 day priority.  Getaways are simply a way to rent weeks so I don't see this issue as having any meaning in this discussion.


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## m61376

Dean said:


> Sounds like sales lies though there may be a bit of truth there.  While I don't believe that the value of what current owners have means anything to MVCI, nor that it should, I don't see how Marriott owners would lose access to II, those resorts who had access to RCI before still do.  But they could take away the reduced fees and 24 day priority.  Getaways are simply a way to rent weeks so I don't see this issue as having any meaning in this discussion.



First of all, if Marriott was going to sever relations with II they would not have just signed a long term agreement. Even Starwood, who has had a long standing points internal exchange system, has a long-term relationship with II, owners use II for some internal and all external exchanges, and there are Starwood Getaways; I would expect Marriott to continue to similarly use II as a venue for renting excess weeks as Getaways and a means of enticing other timeshare owners to visit their properties (Getaways are also a means to get people to visit and hopefully provide fodder for tours). 

I don't agree that the value of what current owners have means nothing to Marriott and that it shouldn't mean anything; while Marirott of course wants to enhance its bottom line, a loyal customer base is the foundation of any business. Maintaining current owner value is essential to Marriott's future; new projects are fueled primarily by current owner purchases, especially in pre-construction phases and, certainly, by word of mouth. IF Marriott was to turn its back on its loyal customers (and I don't believe it will), then Perry's prognostication of it circling the drain would become a reality.

As for continued affiliation with II, Marirott is well aware that their contemplated system will not appeal to everyone (that was clear from Fletch's posts), and they have precedence with that in their Asia Pacific program. They also want to be able to sell their weeks as having access to thousands of properties world-wide, not just fifty something resorts. So II exchanges are mutually beneficial. If there are any fees to join and/or if there is a loss of home resort priority with any new system, there will likely be many people who continue business as usual, and there will likely remain considerable Marriott inventory in II, at least in the short term. IF over time Marriott's internal trading program catches on, then inventory in II will likely proportionally decrease, but the value of deeded weeks owned, reserved and deposited (as per current ownership contracts) in II may actually be enhanced because of more limited inventory, although the options for Marriott to Marriott trades will be impacted.

IF Marriott's new system is purely a points system with loss of home resort priority, as Fletch and others have indicated, then ultimately we will all have to weigh whether the ability to reserve what we now own is outweighed by the possible easier ability to reserve within the Marriott system and the increased flexibility. Personally, I'd like the best of all worlds- I want to keep my home resort priority, I'd like to directly book other Marriotts with the ability to use a form of currency (ie- points) to have control of view, and I like the concept of having control over length of stay (although a week is fine with me so that's not a big issue) and size of unit (it would be nice to be able to book a 3BR for some trips and a smaller unit for others). Since I bought primarily to use, I would not be willing to give up my home resort priority and I would really resent being forced to shell out anything substantial, especially in this economy, to join any new system. The last two biggies for me are MF's (although if home resort priority was maintained that would infer that it was not purely a points trust system, and the current MF system would remain intact) and, the bottom line, how value is assigned. 

I know others disagree, but I still maintain that point assignment must be a reflection of real market demand, and not an arbitrary assignment of a number to increase sales. If I own a Grande Vista week, for example, and it is going to cost me double the value of my week to book a winter Caribbean week, then I want to be able to justify that trade. The bottom line- if I could go to Marriott's website and that Grande Vista week is $239 per night for a 2BR villa for week 5 and $855 for the same week in Aruba, then spending additional points makes sense (although if I was the Grande Vista owner I might decide that I prefer the week for week trading through II). However, if I can look at Marriott's website and find that a mid-August week in Aruba is $585 a night and the same size unit it $394 a night at Marco for the same time period, then I wouldn't expect an exchange into Marco to be costing more points than the Aruba unit is allotted; Marriott should not be artificially inflating point values as a sales tool. If I am going to give up my week, I want to be able to get equivalent value (after all, isn't that what, at least on paper, points systems offer- flexibility and being a more equitable system), and that value must have some form of real market objective determination. 

That said, I can understand that many people bought into the system with the concept of Platinum for Platinum or high demand Gold for perhaps lower demand Platinum, etc., so I could embrace a system like HGVC's, etc., where most resorts are valued similarly. I can see the concept of equity there too on a broad scale basis.

I think owners will be looking at not only how many points they are getting, but how the points are distributed and if they truly reflect value (and value is really a reflection of market demand, which Marriott's rental rates already reflect) or if, alternately, Marriott decides to value similar seasons similarly across the board (which, to a large degree, is how the product was sold for the last 25 years); for me, I can see equity in either of these scenarios. I cannot see equity in some arbitrary assignment, either now or in the future, of enhanced valuations as a sales tool (ex.- inflating Marco's point allotment to sell units). 

History, btw, has a tendency to repeat itself. Starwood did that with inflated values for Lagumar, for ex.. They created a system wherefew deposited high value weeks. Although they later reallocated point assignments to WSJ, very few St. John's weeks ever get deposited because owners will rent them out first. Very few prime weeks are available for non WSJ owners to reserve even internally because the point allocations make it such that owners feel they get gypped if they book anywhere else because they simply don't get enough points allocated. Harborside is another property with similar issues. So Marriott has to be careful that older, but premium properties, don't get out-priced by newer properties simply because they are newer, but might never achieve the same status of some older properties simply because in vacations, like real estate, it is location, location, location.


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## Clark

When we attended a sales presentation at SurfWatch in April, the sales person commented that Marriott would stop placing inventory with Interval in June.


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## BarbS

I'm a long time lurker who has learned a lot by reading all your posts.  We own a gold OF Barony Beach week and a gold OF Surf Club week.  I've been following this thread since it started and am now more confused than ever.  We used an accommodation certificate to snag a last minute week at OceanWatch in Myrtle Beach.  We agreed to attend a timeshare presentation last Monday.  When asked about the new point system, our sales rep insisted she had heard nothing about any such thing.   After her manager or whoever he was came in to question us about how she did.........and to warn us that the wonderful deal they were offering us (20% off the price) would expire after we walked out.......he also denied knowing anything about a new points system.  But he did assure us that IF such a thing were to happen.......we, as Marriott owners, would be the first to know about any new "enhancements."   After reading about what other sales reps have been revealing to potential customers........the whole presentation seemed quite bizarre to say the least.   This presentation was exactly like every other one we've ever attended where they describe all the wonderful vacations you can take with Marriott rewards points.......only this time they were talking about the 5 night vacation packages instead of the 7 day ones.


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## PerryM

*In a nutshell...*

Marriott is faced with a dilemma on 6/16/10:

A 2BR Gold Summit Watch sells for $20,000 and the average Gold SW week rents for $1,000 - how do you make a Point system that handles BOTH buying Points and then using those Points for rental rates?

The fly in this ointment is the resale rate of just $6,500 to buy that same week - how does that fit in?

How Marriott will address these complex problems is what ALL these conversations is all about...

P.S.

Geez what was I thinking - do the above and allow owners not to join and keep that system going with II on top of everything.


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## Dean

m61376 said:


> First of all, if Marriott was going to sever relations with II they would not have just signed a long term agreement.


I'm not sure if you just chose my post to use as a point of reference or that you misread what I wrote.  My point was that the members who owned at existing Marriott resorts (and likely future resorts) would likely retain access to II though it's possible that some of the workings of the current internal exchange program would be altered or eliminated going forward.  My view would be looking over the next 5-10 years, not 1-2 though.  On that is seems we agree.

As for how much Marriott cares about you and I, it really depends on what issue we're talking.  We likely disagree a lot less than you might think, but I don't think Marriott is going to worry one bit about members complaining about resale prices or what they say on places like TUG.  They will care about the issues that will keep them from buying new weeks or into a new system.


----------



## dougp26364

Clark said:


> When we attended a sales presentation at SurfWatch in April, the sales person commented that Marriott would stop placing inventory with Interval in June.



Here's what I think happend. The salesman heard that Marriott was going to a points based exchange system through the grapevine. They assumed, since RCI has RCI points, that Marriott was dumping I.I. and going to RCI because Interval doesn't have a points based exchange system. They were wrong. The problem with sales people, and this thread for that matter, is they get bits and pieces and then let their imaginations run wild. As mentioned above, Marriott just signed a long term contract with Interval. They wouldn't have done that if they were moving to RCI.

I was once told by a salesman that Marriott owned RCI. Even when I got the Interval book out that he had and showed him all the Marriott resort in it and the lack of Marriott resorts in RCI, he still stood on his statement that Marriott owned RCI as a solid fact.

Generally speaking, most salesmen only know how to sell. Many don't own the product, don't use the prodcut and don't have a clue about the product past what their sales managers tell them to say. Needless to say, they get some wild rumors going on their own when they make assumptions and then believe them to be facts.


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## dougp26364

BarbS said:


> I'm a long time lurker who has learned a lot by reading all your posts.  We own a gold OF Barony Beach week and a gold OF Surf Club week.  I've been following this thread since it started and am now more confused than ever.  We used an accommodation certificate to snag a last minute week at OceanWatch in Myrtle Beach.  We agreed to attend a timeshare presentation last Monday.  When asked about the new point system, our sales rep insisted she had heard nothing about any such thing.   After her manager or whoever he was came in to question us about how she did.........and to warn us that the wonderful deal they were offering us (20% off the price) would expire after we walked out.......he also denied knowing anything about a new points system.  But he did assure us that IF such a thing were to happen.......we, as Marriott owners, would be the first to know about any new "enhancements."   After reading about what other sales reps have been revealing to potential customers........the whole presentation seemed quite bizarre to say the least.   This presentation was exactly like every other one we've ever attended where they describe all the wonderful vacations you can take with Marriott rewards points.......only this time they were talking about the 5 night vacation packages instead of the 7 day ones.



You can take it one of two ways.

1. Nothing is going to happen and we've all allowed our imaginations to run wild or

2. They're toeing the company line and keeping their mouths such, which is something ALL Marriott sales persons should be doing on this subject. 

A couple of years ago I'd have been standing on #1, that it was just a rumor and nothing was going to happen. The thing is, there's been to much chatter, we have a couple of people who post here who have a few contacts higher up with Marriott and, the timeshare world has changed to a points driven internal exchange system and Marriott is almost the last major developer standing who doesn't have such a product. I believe something is going to happen and, I believe it's more likely to be sooner than later. I dread the thought that June and July will come and go without any announcements by Marriott. If nothing has happened by July, then I'll be back to #1, that it's just a rumor, and that nothing is ever going to change. Actually, either way is fine by me right now.


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## Asia2000

Just some opinionated thoughts here.  After all, if we had all of the facts, this thread would not be very much fun.

If people know all of their options in the timeshare world, very few people would even consider a retail priced (from Marriott) timeshare point program versus a resale deeded week.  The gauge on how soon the points program will effect deeded week owners will be based on how many deeded week owners convert to points.  The question is how much money will Marriott charge deeded week owners?  In Asia it was $5,000 and from the looks of things, very few people converted.  One, because $5,000 is too much.  Two, because the point system in Asia did not really give you anything better other than a low entry price on points and the hotel "Club Connections" (I think many of the people that converted, added points at the low price - Marriott gave up to one year at the initial offering price once your deeded week was converted).  

My whole purpose in acquiring a timeshare was to get away from hotel rooms.  With children, we want the extra bedroom and the ability to cook so we do not have to pay $20-$30 a head for breakfast.  Club Connections and Marriott Reward points will not sway very many people.  I think the only way to make people go for the points is to give them something big that their regular deeded week cannot give them.  The only thing that comes to mind is "priority".  People want assurance that they will be first in line.  I don't think it will come to what Perry talked about, but I do think it will move in that direction (not having an effect on most people but may start to creep in over time).  

Marriott cannot sell point program timeshares for weeks of inventory they do not have.  They can fill up the system, but they cannot overfill it as people will not be able to use their programs (gridlock).  A deeded week is exactly that.  They will either have to change/adjust/add the rules (as far as who gets priority - Points or Deeds) or build/add more resorts.  I think they will do both.  Point owners will have an edge on priority in the long term (concerning trades - not home resort weeks).  Marriott will also add more resorts (your tier II properties/resorts that are not part of MVCI right now) and also some of their Tier I hotels NYC Marquis, Miami South Beach, etc. (prime properties in locations where MVCI does not currently exist).

Making a point program is not enough to get anyone excited about buying into the program.  They need to add some things and make it enticing for deeded week owners to convert.  Smoke and mirrors will result in a failed program when dealing with the well educated timeshare owners of the Western world.

I guess we will find out for sure in a few weeks.


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## bnoble

> the well educated timeshare owners of the Western world


That's *really* funny.  Hang around the resort pool someday and see how many of the average owners know anything at all about what they own or how it works.


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## jlf58

The thing that stinks is the last week before the change, most people who buy onsite will have no idea what is about to happen.


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## dougp26364

Asia2000 said:


> Just some opinionated thoughts here.  After all, if we had all of the facts, this thread would not be very much fun.
> 
> If people know all of their options in the timeshare world, very few people would even consider a retail priced (from Marriott) timeshare point program versus a resale deeded week.  The gauge on how soon the points program will effect deeded week owners will be based on how many deeded week owners convert to points.  The question is how much money will Marriott charge deeded week owners?  In Asia it was $5,000 and from the looks of things, very few people converted.  One, because $5,000 is too much.  Two, because the point system in Asia did not really give you anything better other than a low entry price on points and the hotel "Club Connections" (I think many of the people that converted, added points at the low price - Marriott gave up to one year at the initial offering price once your deeded week was converted).
> 
> My whole purpose in acquiring a timeshare was to get away from hotel rooms.  With children, we want the extra bedroom and the ability to cook so we do not have to pay $20-$30 a head for breakfast.  Club Connections and Marriott Reward points will not sway very many people.  I think the only way to make people go for the points is to give them something big that their regular deeded week cannot give them.  The only thing that comes to mind is "priority".  People want assurance that they will be first in line.  I don't think it will come to what Perry talked about, but I do think it will move in that direction (not having an effect on most people but may start to creep in over time).
> 
> Marriott cannot sell point program timeshares for weeks of inventory they do not have.  They can fill up the system, but they cannot overfill it as people will not be able to use their programs (gridlock).  A deeded week is exactly that.  They will either have to change/adjust/add the rules (as far as who gets priority - Points or Deeds) or build/add more resorts.  I think they will do both.  Point owners will have an edge on priority in the long term (concerning trades - not home resort weeks).  Marriott will also add more resorts (your tier II properties/resorts that are not part of MVCI right now) and also some of their Tier I hotels NYC Marquis, Miami South Beach, etc. (prime properties in locations where MVCI does not currently exist).
> 
> Making a point program is not enough to get anyone excited about buying into the program.  They need to add some things and make it enticing for deeded week owners to convert.  Smoke and mirrors will result in a failed program when dealing with the well educated timeshare owners of the Western world.
> 
> I guess we will find out for sure in a few weeks.



What I've seen with the one other program we own where it started as a weeks based exchange, then morphed into a points based club then morphed yet again into a trust/points based club is that inventory is kept seperate. 

Weeks owners have retained all their original rights and can book according to the original rules. If a deeded weeks based owner wants to exchange, it's done via I.I. They can book a floating week from the weeks inventory at 12 months. 

Those that joined the points based internal program have had their deeded week assigned a points value and they now share in the points inventory for exchanges. Deeded owners participating in the internal points exchange program but have a 2 month home resort window for the resort they're deeded. 

The trust based ownership is essentially the same as the points but, trust based owners have a one month home resort adavantage for all the resorts in their trust group (there are at least three groups) and, their home resort is essentially any resort they want to book in their particular trust. 

All owners that are in one of the points based programs can book any resort at the 9 month interval. Again, only those who have choosen to join either one of the trusts or had their deeded week assigned a points value and joined the internal exchange program have their weeks placed into this inventory. They can not exchange for weeks held in the weeks inventory for deeded week owners who remain outside the internal exchange program. 

IMHO, from a management point of view this could be an inventory nightmare. Yet they do manage it very nicely. There is a management fee (of course) to pay for the resources necessary to keep everything straight, the reservation system and Interval Gold membership, which is included in the management fee's. 

I'm thinking that a new management fee is a very real possiblity for any new internal exchange program Marriott comes up with but, I'm also thinking that fee will include a coroporate account with Interval. If (and it's a big if) internal exchanges are free or greatly reduced and if I can get by without a personal account at Interval, then any management fee for any new internal exchange program might be negated by the saving of paying Interval's membership and exchange fee's.

As for adding extra's, I look for the same stuff most other programs offer. Rental cars, FF miles, airline flight certificates, reduction of MF's et.......I would look for something like a straight conversion to the Marriot Rewards Program rather than exchanging your resort week for MR points and then having to exchange those points for hotel nights or services.


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## taffy19

Fletch said:


> The thing that stinks is the last week before the change, most people who buy onsite will have no idea what is about to happen.


Fletch, they told us in March already that no more deeded weeks were going to be sold after June.  The advantage was that we would be buying at a 20% discount so supposedly had a 20% equity already.  

I remember her telling us that Marriott would not sell at a lower price from there on.  She didn't mention the re-sale market, of course.  A lot of people, who take the tour, don't even know that this is out there.  She made us believe that a *deeded* fixed week/unit would be a smart purchase.

If the point packages are going for the same high price, why would people be unhappy?  They most likely get the conversion free of charge.  I felt for the people, who bought at the high price and then a week later the prices dropped by 25% and they could no longer rescind the purchase because the rescission time had passed. 

I would rather buy the DSV-I re-sale that someone here bought for $500 and call that a *smart* purchase.   What a fantastic deal!


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## jlf58

Except that that 20% discount has been running for   14 month already .
I disagree that they will tell anyone a week before they switch, they can upgrade for free. That would open up a whole can of worms !!! 






iconnections said:


> Fletch, they told us in March already that no more deeded weeks were going to be sold after June.  The advantage was that we would be buying at a 20% discount so supposedly had a 20% equity already.
> 
> I remember her telling us that Marriott would not sell at a lower price from there on.  She didn't mention the re-sale market, of course.  A lot of people, who take the tour, don't even know that this is out there.  She made us believe that a *deeded* fixed week/unit would be a smart purchase.
> 
> If the point packages are going for the same high price, why would people be unhappy?  They most likely get the conversion free of charge.  I felt for the people, who bought at the high price and then a week later the prices dropped by 25% and they could no longer rescind the purchase because the rescission time had passed.
> 
> I would rather buy the DSV-I re-sale that someone here bought for $500 and call that a *smart* purchase.   What a fantastic deal!


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## taffy19

Fletch said:


> Except that that 20% discount has been running for 14 month already .
> I disagree that they will tell anyone a week before they switch, they can upgrade for free. That would open up a whole can of worms !!!


Wasn't the discount 25%? I remember that we were in Maui and had done an update and then they called us back to let us know that they had dropped the prices by 25%. I couldn't believe my ears as they had never done that before. It most likely dropped the re-sale prices too by 25% so that was a double blow for the people who bought at a higher price in case they have to sell suddenly.

If people knew that a timeshare is practically worthless, the moment you walk out of the door, people would not buy them unless you are planning to keep it for many years. I feel that we have done OK with our two original timeshares that we have owned since 1983 but I am not so sure about the Marriott because we can't get the use out of it like we have had with the others. The two in Mexico is another story. Buy here and exchange to Mexico.

It's ironic but my husband is talking to our friends who went with us to Maui two years ago and they asked us when do we go again. I was planning to skip Maui next year so may tell them that they will have to wait a year longer.  They own Worlmark so we can double our stay. It does save money this way and they are a fun couple to be around.


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## PerryM

*Don't forget your favorite analgesic...*



Fletch said:


> Except that that 20% discount has been running for   14 month already .
> I disagree that they will tell anyone a week before they switch, they can upgrade for free. That would open up a whole can of worms !!!



I've never understood American companies (Probably worldwide) desire to punish their customers.  It truly boggles my mind.  Marriott is a leader in this area.

ALL Marriott owners buying, from Marriott, 2 years ago got screwed with the price reductions and Marriott just sat on their hands and smiled - the American version of customer relations.  Even a simple coupon, for a bottle of aspirin, would have been a nice gesture - but nooooooooooooo.

I suspect that the new "exchange" system will be the same.

So folks, stock up on aspirin or your choice of analgesic (pain reliever for those that live in St. Louis) for what's about to hit us - only 2 weeks and counting...


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## GaryDouglas

Last week at the Maui Ocean Club, they started clearing the display area in the middle of the sales office (around 20'X20') and one of the entrance walls was cleared of displays. Maybe they are just updating to something more high tech, or maybe they are preparing for the ides of June...


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## Asia2000

One thing is for sure.  When the first TUGger goes to the first "new" presentation, it will analyzed down to the last little minute detail by the experts on this site.  It is kind of like that little technology repair company getting their hands on the new I-pad or I-phone.  This should be a lot of fun to read and analyze.


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## Bruyerebrit

Just went through a presentation at Shadow Ridge today.  Nothing surprising, but just wanted to add another "data point" to this avalanche of information (and speculation!).  Same old story....sales office will shut down June 15th for training on the new system.  What I didn't appreciate was the sales slime approach to my resale week...it's "not recognized by Marriott", it's really "nothing" and other condescending blah, blah, blah.  Since we also own a "direct" week, the sales slime focused exhaustively on our upcoming choice to remain a "legacy" owner or convert to the new system, with new flexibility.  For good measure, he also repeated himself at least three times for each ridiculous point he made. Oh, and we've gotta get that deeded week in now, because they're gone forever in two weeks..and, yes, you guessed it, when we didn't bite we got an earful of EOY "bargains" at 60% off the EY price.  The only saving grace was that he fetched a senior guy when he realized he wasn't getting anywhere and that fellow was a true professional...I always respect them, even if I don't want to buy what they're selling.


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## jlf58

It was 25% for owners for a few months but never non-owners. thats not counting Marco which is 35% on some 



iconnections said:


> Wasn't the discount 25%? I remember that we were in Maui and had done an update and then they called us back to let us know that they had dropped the prices by 25%. I couldn't believe my ears as they had never done that before. It most likely dropped the re-sale prices too by 25% so that was a double blow for the people who bought at a higher price in case they have to sell suddenly.
> 
> If people knew that a timeshare is practically worthless, the moment you walk out of the door, people would not buy them unless you are planning to keep it for many years. I feel that we have done OK with our two original timeshares that we have owned since 1983 but I am not so sure about the Marriott because we can't get the use out of it like we have had with the others. The two in Mexico is another story. Buy here and exchange to Mexico.
> 
> It's ironic but my husband is talking to our friends who went with us to Maui two years ago and they asked us when do we go again. I was planning to skip Maui next year so may tell them that they will have to wait a year longer.  They own Worlmark so we can double our stay. It does save money this way and they are a fun couple to be around.


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## PerryM

Bruyerebrit said:


> Just went through a presentation at Shadow Ridge today.  Nothing surprising, but just wanted to add another "data point" to this avalanche of information (and speculation!).  Same old story....sales office will shut down June 15th for training on the new system.  What I didn't appreciate was *the sales slime approach to my resale week...it's "not recognized by Marriott", it's really "nothing" *and other condescending blah, blah, blah.  Since we also own a "direct" week, the sales slime focused exhaustively on our upcoming choice to remain a "legacy" owner or convert to the new system, with new flexibility.  For good measure, he also repeated himself at least three times for each ridiculous point he made. Oh, and we've gotta get that deeded week in now, because they're gone forever in two weeks..and, yes, you guessed it, when we didn't bite we got an earful of EOY "bargains" at 60% off the EY price.  The only saving grace was that he fetched a senior guy when he realized he wasn't getting anywhere and that fellow was a true professional...I always respect them, even if I don't want to buy what they're selling.



The logical question to ask our slippery salesrep is:
*
"So if I have to sell my Marriott week to pay bills, you're saying it's worthless?"*

That may actually be the correct answer, to the question, starting on 6/15/10.


Marriott will sell Points and not weeks.
Resales will sell weeks and not Points.

Does not compute.....


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## winger

*Sales experience*

I have tried staying away from this thread , but guess I will post my experience.  I had a email conversation with a sales executive in Orlando (the depart who can sell any available Marriott inventory).  The conversation basically started with him asking how my Marriott ownership has been so far (we've now owned with MVCI over 2 years)...

I basically mentioned I wished Marriott would move to the points system, that we have recently (a couple of years ago) increased our Diamond Resorts 'points' and have been enjoying that flexibility points offer over weekly intervals such as Marriott's.

Strangely enough, his response yesterday (5/31) made NO mention of any pending Marriott changes to the weekly system.  Not even a hint.  I mean, if I were the rep in this situation and knew something was coming, I would either NOT even respond and wait for the official Marriott decision on points or no points, OR just recommend for me to hang tight as something maybe in the works which I would find interesting.

He just concluded the email by asking if I had more interest in adding more Marriott ownership.


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## scrapngen

I would imagine someone replying in email would be very careful and/or experienced enough not to say or reference anything that is not officially available in writing ... especially if that salesperson was able to sell any Marriott property. IMHO...


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## winger

scrapngen said:


> I would imagine someone replying in email would be very careful and/or experienced enough not to say or reference anything that is not officially available in writing ... especially if that salesperson was able to sell any Marriott property. IMHO...


I understand that, but I am thinking IF a change to points were definitely pending, then the rep would/should be aware of what I just mentioned to him (my strong interest in a points system), that he would have responded differently to me (holding off on a response until a points system were available is one way of responding) if he really wanted to make a sale to me.

I mean, aren't most sales people trained to listen to their customers and try to cater the product to the customers' desires/needs?


----------



## jrhcolleton

*OK 3 (SIMPLE?) questions on what to do for the next 15 days*

Just went to a very professional presentation today and some of the offers are very enticing, however with the uncertainty I (like many others) am frozen on decision making. I own both resale weeks and Developer weeks. Marriott is still offering equity trades. Marriott is still selling deeded weeks, of course. The questions are:



Will the new system devalue older resale weeks owned by all of us and how?
Will deeded weeks purchased from Marriott over the *next 2 weeks *get devalued or in some way be negatively impacted and how?
Will older customer owned developer weeks be switched into the points system at no cost or will they be devalued as well?
Since nearly all Marriott weeks are red weeks (some redder than others) will gold/silver less desirable properties have points assigned that will eliminate the ability to trade up as we tuggers are educated to do. In other words will the trading "skill" be eliminated?
I said they were easy questions but I know they are not. I would not expect any specific answers, but then again there may be some and/or educated speculation. My tendancy is to sit on my wallet because of this uncertainty. But then again I have been very pleased with my Marriott timeshare purchases and experiences over the past 20 years and view them as really being a customer satisfaction driven company.  And they do have 400,000 of those. So they must somehow satisfy the 400,000 but also create incentive to gain revenue in this depressed market. Quite a tightrope to walk.


----------



## scrapngen

winger said:


> I understand that, but I am thinking IF a change to points were definitely pending, then the rep would/should be aware of what I just mentioned to him (my strong interest in a points system), that he would have responded differently to me (holding off on a response until a points system were available is one way of responding) if he really wanted to make a sale to me.
> 
> I mean, aren't most sales people trained to listen to their customers and try to cater the product to the customers' desires/needs?



I do get your point, but still think he might have had his hands tied. It will be interesting to see if - assuming a new system rolls out - he then emails you as a follow-up saying "Hey, now we have a points type offering that might interest you based on your previous questions..."


----------



## winger

scrapngen said:


> I do get your point, but still think he might have had his hands tied. It will be interesting to see if - assuming a new system rolls out - he then emails you as a follow-up saying "Hey, now we have a points type offering that might interest you based on your previous questions..."


LOL I am sure he will. This is a rep I have been in contact with for the past year + .  He is a very nice man.


----------



## scrapngen

winger said:


> LOL I am sure he will. This is a rep I have been in contact with for the past year + .  He is a very nice man.



Great! Maybe he'll be able to help add fuel to the debate once the shake-up occurs 

Personally, I don't have a big dog in this one. I bought specific fixed weeks to use. If they trade better with a new system, that might be useful down the road, but not so much now. 

My interest lies in future purchases. We are thinking about adding another week that would be floating. Decided to wait and see because we weren't likely to complete a sale before the potential changes.  So we have to see if new system makes sense, or if resale continues to be the better idea - but that's where this will be SO interesting!! If new system, then the potential purchase decision becomes much more complicated as it will be unclear what the benefits to resale vs. developer might be. I know some will always say resale is better, but to me it is more likely that the waters will be muddy for some time - blurry at best.


----------



## Powerguy

PerryM said:


> The logical question to ask our slippery salesrep is:
> *
> "So if I have to sell my Marriott week to pay bills, you're saying it's worthless?"*
> 
> That may actually be the correct answer, to the question, starting on 6/15/10.
> 
> 
> Marriott will sell Points and not weeks.
> Resales will sell weeks and not Points.
> 
> Does not compute.....



So how would one sell points if they wanted out?


----------



## davidvel

Bruyerebrit said:


> Just went through a presentation at Shadow Ridge today.  Nothing surprising, but just wanted to add another "data point" to this avalanche of information (and speculation!).  Same old story....sales office will shut down June 15th for training on the new system.



If this is true...thank god the'll be tied up during our visit.


----------



## PerryM

*Zero is a very cold number...*



Powerguy said:


> So how would one sell points if they wanted out?



Forget selling Points - they won't transfer with the deeded week.

Your deeded week is worth - what?

I have no idea after 6/15/10 - Marriott won't quote prices per week anymore - they are ZERO.

As a buyer I'd beat the seller over the head that Marriott values their week as ZERO!

Then there is the sticky matter of the membership fee.  Let's say that resale weeks can enter the new system for $3,500 and that membership fee doesn't transfer to the new owner.  As a buyer I'm going to demand the seller pay for that $3,500 so I can use the week in the new Points system.  (I'm simply going to lower my offer, what ever it is, by $3,500 and so will everyone else)


This isn't going to be pretty folks....


----------



## m61376

winger said:


> LOL I am sure he will. This is a rep I have been in contact with for the past year + .  He is a very nice man.



I wonder if you called him if the response would be any different, since it wouldn't be in writing.


----------



## potchak

I think Marriott would be insane to charge $3500 for membership fee to join this new program only because people are concerned about their jobs right now, people don't want to be forking over what could be 3 months of mortgage payments! I know I would not consider spending that kind of money right now unless we got something pretty damn good for it right off the bat! I can't imagine that Marriott is that stupid, although how convenient that they consider changing over to a new points based system right before everyone starts booking 4th of July week!


----------



## PerryM

potchak said:


> I think Marriott would be insane to charge $3500 for membership fee to join this new program only because people are concerned about their jobs right now, people don't want to be forking over what could be 3 months of mortgage payments! I know I would not consider spending that kind of money right now unless we got something pretty damn good for it right off the bat! I can't imagine that Marriott is that stupid, although how convenient that they consider changing over to a new points based system right before everyone starts booking 4th of July week!



My guess is that a Marriott bought week can become part of the new Points exchange system for $2,500.

Resales are able to do the same thing but cost more - my guess is $3,500.

In 2 weeks we will find out just how much money Marriott want's to extort/////charge you to become part of this wonderful new way to do what II does already.


----------



## Powerguy

PerryM said:


> Forget selling Points - they won't transfer with the deeded week.
> 
> Your deeded week is worth - what?
> 
> I have no idea after 6/15/10 - Marriott won't quote prices per week anymore - they are ZERO.
> 
> As a buyer I'd beat the seller over the head that Marriott values their week as ZERO!
> 
> Then there is the sticky matter of the membership fee.  Let's say that resale weeks can enter the new system for $3,500 and that membership fee doesn't transfer to the new owner.  As a buyer I'm going to demand the seller pay for that $3,500 so I can use the week in the new Points system.  (I'm simply going to lower my offer, what ever it is, by $3,500 and so will everyone else)
> 
> 
> This isn't going to be pretty folks....




Hey Perry. If you can stop your doom and gloom predictions for a moment.........

My question was after Marriott changes their sales program and only sells points would a person who bought into the new points system be able to sell their points privately or would all point transactions have to go thru Marriott? For a comparison how do the other point systems work?


----------



## PerryM

Powerguy said:


> Hey Perry. If you can stop your doom and gloom predictions for a moment.........
> 
> My question was after Marriott changes their sales program and only sells points would a person who bought into the new points system be able to sell their points privately or would all point transactions have to go thru Marriott? For a comparison how do the other point systems work?



I'm assuming that deeded weeks stay deeded weeks and that Marriott doesn't go insane and confiscate the deeded weeks into some master trust which morph into Points forever.

Under my assumption their is a disconnect between Marriott Points, usable only in their system, and deeded weeks which are what is sold resale.

If this is the case, then the resale market has absolutely no idea what the developer is selling a week for and total chaos.  In that environment prices fall since all benchmarks are gone.

Wyndham resorts are very similar and a deeded week sells for 5 cents on the sales dollar - there is precedence here.

If Marriott confiscates weeks and makes them part of a master trust I have no idea how Points are sold resale - only Marriott can handle that transaction and not owners.


----------



## Powerguy

PerryM said:


> I'm assuming that deeded weeks stay deeded weeks and that Marriott doesn't go insane and confiscate the deeded weeks into some master trust which morph into Points forever.
> 
> If Marriott confiscates weeks and makes them part of a master trust I have no idea how Points are sold resale - only Marriott can handle that transaction and not owners.




Not sure how Marriott confiscates a deeded week. Not really possible. People can trade their deeded week for points in a new points based system but people with deeded weeks have title and rights to their timeshare week. All of the timeshare documents and agreements don't magically disappear at Marriott's whim. Marriott is extremely limited as to what they can change in the declaration of condominium as the developer and very limited in what they can change in the timeshare plan as the management company. Read the documents and see.


----------



## PerryM

Powerguy said:


> Not sure how Marriott confiscates a deeded week. Not really possible. People can trade their deeded week for points in a new points based system but people with deeded weeks have title and rights to their timeshare week. All of the timeshare documents and agreements don't magically disappear at Marriott's whim. Marriott is extremely limited as to what they can change in the declaration of condominium as the developer and very limited in what they can change in the timeshare plan as the management company. Read the documents and see.



I agree but some here have suggested that on 6/15/10 all developer weeks become part of a master trust with Points being the currency Marriott deals in.  That would require someone joining the exchange system to turn in their week for Points but Points can be only be sold by the developer.

That's why I'm suggesting a much simpler method - you turn your usage for 3+ years to Marriott and get Points to spend each year.  Marriott may also demand you proxy your voting power to them to influence the HOA - if that's possible.

6/15/10 will tell us how Marriott chose to go and then we can work on concrete plans.

But I don't think Marriott is going to make it easy for resales - they seem to be at war with the owners - at least that's what I conclude from all the rumors.


----------



## dougp26364

Marriott can not "confiscate" what it already owns. Developer owned weeks are owned by Marriott.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Marriott can not "confiscate" what it already owns. Developer owned weeks are owned by Marriott.



Obviously I'm not talking about developer inventory.


----------



## Dean

winger said:


> I have tried staying away from this thread , but guess I will post my experience.  I had a email conversation with a sales executive in Orlando (the depart who can sell any available Marriott inventory).  The conversation basically started with him asking how my Marriott ownership has been so far (we've now owned with MVCI over 2 years)...
> 
> I basically mentioned I wished Marriott would move to the points system, that we have recently (a couple of years ago) increased our Diamond Resorts 'points' and have been enjoying that flexibility points offer over weekly intervals such as Marriott's.
> 
> Strangely enough, his response yesterday (5/31) made NO mention of any pending Marriott changes to the weekly system.  Not even a hint.  I mean, if I were the rep in this situation and knew something was coming, I would either NOT even respond and wait for the official Marriott decision on points or no points, OR just recommend for me to hang tight as something maybe in the works which I would find interesting.
> 
> He just concluded the email by asking if I had more interest in adding more Marriott ownership.


I'm sure it's a violation of the employment rules to discuss an item that would be proprietary information, he could easily (and likely should) lose his job for discussion such issues.  Various sales people are better at following the rules than others.  Often the ground level employees aren't actually formally told about such issues until the last minute for this very reason.



PerryM said:


> Forget selling Points - they won't transfer with the deeded week.
> 
> Your deeded week is worth - what?
> 
> I have no idea after 6/15/10 - Marriott won't quote prices per week anymore - they are ZERO.
> 
> As a buyer I'd beat the seller over the head that Marriott values their week as ZERO!
> 
> Then there is the sticky matter of the membership fee.  Let's say that resale weeks can enter the new system for $3,500 and that membership fee doesn't transfer to the new owner.  As a buyer I'm going to demand the seller pay for that $3,500 so I can use the week in the new Points system.  (I'm simply going to lower my offer, what ever it is, by $3,500 and so will everyone else)
> 
> 
> This isn't going to be pretty folks....


Perry, again an unrealistic slant that is likely worse than the worst case scenario in my book.  Obviously any value ($$$ or otherwise) will depend on the specifics of the system and any conversion options.  It's likely that many will be better off under a new system and depending on the specifics, it's possible that most will be better off under any new system (esp Gold and Silver and possibly bronze).  The question is how do they get from old to new and what will it cost.


----------



## GregT

PerryM said:


> I'm assuming that deeded weeks stay deeded weeks and that Marriott doesn't go insane and confiscate the deeded weeks into some master trust which morph into Points forever.
> 
> Under my assumption their is a disconnect between Marriott Points, usable only in their system, and deeded weeks which are what is sold resale.
> 
> If this is the case, then the resale market has absolutely no idea what the developer is selling a week for and total chaos.  In that environment prices fall since all benchmarks are gone.
> 
> Wyndham resorts are very similar and a deeded week sells for 5 cents on the sales dollar - there is precedence here.
> 
> If Marriott confiscates weeks and makes them part of a master trust I have no idea how Points are sold resale - only Marriott can handle that transaction and not owners.




Perry, I believe the reason Wyndham points are worthless is not becaues of the Trust-based points system (where deeds are held in a Trust) but because of the anti-owner rules that have been instituted by Wyndham.  They've introduced a number of fees that are expensive, restricted the ability of owners to rent points to one another, and gone after the owners who have a rental business.  However, it's a good system with very good quality properties.

HGVC on the other hand, has not been punitive to its existing owners, resale or direct purchasers, and it exercises ROFR.  The stability of the system (and high quality of the properties) has helped it to sustain some of the value of its points in resale.

Marriott could easily incorporate the best of all systems because they've seen what works and what doesn't.     I think we all agree that Marriott is doing this because it's in their best corporate self-interest (profitability), but that a points-based system doesn't preclude them from making new (and existing owners happy).

Their points system could be a big success if it has the following:

1) Home-resort booking advantage (HGVC/Wyndham)
2) Length of stay (and check-in day) flexibility (Wyndham/Worldmark/HGVC)
3) Resale price stability (either if they are a ROFR buyer of resale deeds for the points program or if deeds are perceived as desirable)
4) Reasonable up-front cost to join (with resale owners paying more to join)
5) Creative access to Marriott hotels (or Ritz Carlton Club)
6) Ability to book view desired (HGVC/Worldmark/Wyndham)
7) Ability to space-bank into II with good trading power (Worldmark)
8) Ability to rent vacant units last minute (Open Season in HGVC/Bonus time in Worldmark)
9) Ability to cancel reservation with reasonable notice, and no loss of points (Worldmark/HGVC/Wyndham)
10) Bank credits/borrow credits for different periods (HGVC/Worldmark/Wyndham)
11) The up-front payment covers all legacy Marriott properties, not just one property

I've been thinking about adding HGVC because I like HHV (at least what I know -- visiting in 2011) and it's dedicated 1BR units (and also the Big Island locations) but I'd take a hard look at a 2BR Ko Olina, *specifically *for the points program, if it had a home resort advantage (especially if I could book just a 1BR and keep the Studio points in the points bank).

I'm counting on Marriott studying all the other points programs hard and building a new points program that institutes the best practices of the others.   I don't begrudge them at all if they will now be re-selling the existing locations (and saving themselves the development dollars) and giving themselves a stable recurring cash flow from the [modest - $99?] annual fees they earn and the [modest - $49?] reservation fees from booking outside of your home resort.

However, this will only work if they have a Trust-based deed system that is separate inventory from the weeks that are available for reservation by existing owners.     

There will be an immediate deposit of weeks into the Trust from existing developer inventory and from those people that take the eye-watering incentives that are available to them to join.   I suspect then there will be a gradual transfer of weeks into the Trust as Marriott ROFRs the desirable weeks that it needs to be able to provide inventory.  And then they market the entire network of locations for the points-purchaser to visit -- but unlike Worldmark which built in new locations and diluted the existing inventory, Marriott is only diluting the properties that are in the Trust, and you have reasonable protection by your home-resort advantage.

Another significant positive from this is that Marriott remains committed to the timeshare industry and perhaps even continues to expand, then we all may be thinking about how to creatively get more points (as cheaply as possible) so that we can take advantage of that system.    

So....count me as a cautious optimist that is trying to find out how to benefit from the upcoming system.

Best to all,

Greg


----------



## PerryM

Dean said:


> ...
> 
> Perry, again an unrealistic slant that is likely worse than the worst case scenario in my book.  Obviously any value ($$$ or otherwise) will depend on the specifics of the system and any conversion options.  *It's likely that many will be better off under a new system and depending on the specifics, it's possible that most will be better off under any new system (esp Gold and Silver and possibly bronze)*.  The question is how do they get from old to new and what will it cost.



My experience with timeshare developers is the opposite - the more they tinker and the longer they tinker the worse off I get.

But who knows, maybe Marriott has a secret plan to enrich many of our lives....


----------



## PerryM

GregT said:


> Perry, I believe the reason Wyndham points are worthless is not becaues of the Trust-based points system (where deeds are held in a Trust) but because of the anti-owner rules that have been instituted by Wyndham.  They've introduced a number of fees that are expensive, restricted the ability of owners to rent points to one another, and gone after the owners who have a rental business.  However, it's a good system with very good quality properties.
> 
> HGVC on the other hand, has not been punitive to its existing owners, resale or direct purchasers, and it exercises ROFR.  The stability of the system (and high quality of the properties) has helped it to sustain some of the value of its points in resale.
> 
> Marriott could easily incorporate the best of all systems because they've seen what works and what doesn't.     I think we all agree that Marriott is doing this because it's in their best corporate self-interest (profitability), but that a points-based system doesn't preclude them from making new (and existing owners happy).
> 
> Their points system could be a big success if it has the following:
> 
> 1) Home-resort booking advantage (HGVC/Wyndham)
> 2) Length of stay (and check-in day) flexibility (Wyndham/Worldmark/HGVC)
> 3) Resale price stability (either if they are a ROFR buyer of resale deeds for the points program or if deeds are perceived as desirable)
> 4) Reasonable up-front cost to join (with resale owners paying more to join)
> 5) Creative access to Marriott hotels (or Ritz Carlton Club)
> 6) Ability to book view desired (HGVC/Worldmark/Wyndham)
> 7) Ability to space-bank into II with good trading power (Worldmark)
> 8) Ability to rent vacant units last minute (Open Season in HGVC/Bonus time in Worldmark)
> 9) Ability to cancel reservation with reasonable notice, and no loss of points (Worldmark/HGVC/Wyndham)
> 10) Bank credits/borrow credits for different periods (HGVC/Worldmark/Wyndham)
> 11) The up-front payment covers all legacy Marriott properties, not just one property
> 
> I've been thinking about adding HGVC because I like HHV (at least what I know -- visiting in 2011) and it's dedicated 1BR units (and also the Big Island locations) but I'd take a hard look at a 2BR Ko Olina, *specifically *for the points program, if it had a home resort advantage (especially if I could book just a 1BR and keep the Studio points in the points bank).
> 
> I'm counting on Marriott studying all the other points programs hard and building a new points program that institutes the best practices of the others.   I don't begrudge them at all if they will now be re-selling the existing locations (and saving themselves the development dollars) and giving themselves a stable recurring cash flow from the [modest - $99?] annual fees they earn and the [modest - $49?] reservation fees from booking outside of your home resort.
> 
> However, this will only work if they have a Trust-based deed system that is separate inventory from the weeks that are available for reservation by existing owners.
> 
> There will be an immediate deposit of weeks into the Trust from existing developer inventory and from those people that take the eye-watering incentives that are available to them to join.   I suspect then there will be a gradual transfer of weeks into the Trust as Marriott ROFRs the desirable weeks that it needs to be able to provide inventory.  And then they market the entire network of locations for the points-purchaser to visit -- but unlike Worldmark which built in new locations and diluted the existing inventory, Marriott is only diluting the properties that are in the Trust, and you have reasonable protection by your home-resort advantage.
> 
> Another significant positive from this is that Marriott remains committed to the timeshare industry and perhaps even continues to expand, then we all may be thinking about how to creatively get more points (as cheaply as possible) so that we can take advantage of that system.
> 
> So....count me as a cautious optimist that is trying to find out how to benefit from the upcoming system.
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg



These are all good points and hopefully Marriott has been looking at what works and what sucks.

I just have grave doubts from a company that for 20+ years could care less about owner to owner exchanges and dumped exchanging off to II.

I'm sure they will market the heck out of this thing but the customer has to decide if they just stick with II, a system they know, or spend more money on their timeshares where the net result has them right back where they are now.

In this climate why spend more money on timeshares?

With Marriott running Blue-Light specials of 20% - 25% and more discounts in order to sell timeshares, what makes them so sure getting into the timeshare exchange business is any easier?


----------



## Bruyerebrit

davidvel said:


> If this is true...thank god the'll be tied up during our visit.



Ha!  You can use the time to get a root canal instead


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> My experience with timeshare developers is the opposite - the more they tinker and the longer they tinker the worse off I get.
> 
> But who knows, maybe Marriott has a secret plan to enrich many of our lives....


There really are 2 issues, what the new plan (if any) is and then how to get there.  It's very possible that each and every one of us who has learned the ins/outs of the system and used it to our advantage, will be worse off, but that doesn't mean everyone will be.  Even with Wyndham points being so low currently (and other companies as well), many of those owners are still better off than comparable owners were under their old system.  The question then becomes how they got to where they are now and how much did those changes (?improvements) cost them.  I am confident that if Marriott rolls out a points system it will be something of value to many, whether it offers value to me, or at least enough to justify my $$$ and weeks to participate in, remains the question.  Equally, or even more important to me, is how will my non developer weeks be treated in such a system as they're the ones I'm likely to want to convert.  Basically I see good trading options also being good conversions options and good usage/renting weeks to be less value in converting.  Keep in mind this is relative as I'm sure a Platinum week at HH will be worth more than a Silver or Gold week would be, it's just the what I'm giving up would likely be of even more to me without converting.

In many ways each and every week/contract we own in timeshares was worth nothing from the day we acquired it.


----------



## taffy19

PerryM said:


> I'm assuming that deeded weeks stay deeded weeks and that Marriott doesn't go insane and confiscate the deeded weeks into some master trust which morph into Points forever.
> 
> Under my assumption their is a disconnect between Marriott Points, usable only in their system, and deeded weeks which are what is sold resale.
> 
> If this is the case, then the resale market has absolutely no idea what the developer is selling a week for and total chaos.  In that environment prices fall since all benchmarks are gone.
> 
> Wyndham resorts are very similar and a deeded week sells for 5 cents on the sales dollar - there is precedence here.
> 
> If Marriott confiscates weeks and makes them part of a master trust I have no idea how Points are sold resale - only Marriott can handle that transaction and not owners.


It is too early to worry about this.  I mentioned it once and they told us that they would sell the week for us.  They do this already if they need your week and they are sold out.  They sold your weeks too, Perry.  Did you do an upgrade or got rid of the week?  I don't remember that but you did OK.  I know for a fact that you will end up with more money if you go through the Marriott than on the re-sale market.  Eventually, the economy will turn around too and everything will get better again.  

We had another couple doing a courtesy update on our last day and we tagged along with them.  The salesman told them that he would send them an email the moment he was allowed to do so and send us information too.  I have a feeling that most of us will get an email from the last person who gave us an update at the Marriott once the new program is official.  We may even receive two because we had done our own update already.

Changes are coming or why would they take the beautiful display down at the sales office on Maui?  That wouldn't make sense.  They may start selling any resort by virtual tour from any sales office that are still left.  I saw one the other day but can't find it right now.  Who knows what is going to happen but they can't force us to join.  For many people, it may be even better.

I hope that we start a new thread once the new program has been introduced or this thread will be the longest one yet.  I believe that we are #2 now.


----------



## taffy19

GregT said:


> Perry, I believe the reason Wyndham points are worthless is not becaues of the Trust-based points system (where deeds are held in a Trust) but because of the anti-owner rules that have been instituted by Wyndham.  They've introduced a number of fees that are expensive, restricted the ability of owners to rent points to one another, and gone after the owners who have a rental business.  However, it's a good system with very good quality properties.
> 
> HGVC on the other hand, has not been punitive to its existing owners, resale or direct purchasers, and it exercises ROFR.  The stability of the system (and high quality of the properties) has helped it to sustain some of the value of its points in resale.
> 
> Marriott could easily incorporate the best of all systems because they've seen what works and what doesn't.     I think we all agree that Marriott is doing this because it's in their best corporate self-interest (profitability), but that a points-based system doesn't preclude them from making new (and existing owners happy).
> 
> Their points system could be a big success if it has the following:
> 
> 1) Home-resort booking advantage (HGVC/Wyndham)
> 2) Length of stay (and check-in day) flexibility (Wyndham/Worldmark/HGVC)
> 3) Resale price stability (either if they are a ROFR buyer of resale deeds for the points program or if deeds are perceived as desirable)
> 4) Reasonable up-front cost to join (with resale owners paying more to join)
> 5) Creative access to Marriott hotels (or Ritz Carlton Club)
> 6) Ability to book view desired (HGVC/Worldmark/Wyndham)
> 7) Ability to space-bank into II with good trading power (Worldmark)
> 8) Ability to rent vacant units last minute (Open Season in HGVC/Bonus time in Worldmark)
> 9) Ability to cancel reservation with reasonable notice, and no loss of points (Worldmark/HGVC/Wyndham)
> 10) Bank credits/borrow credits for different periods (HGVC/Worldmark/Wyndham)
> 11) The up-front payment covers all legacy Marriott properties, not just one property
> 
> I've been thinking about adding HGVC because I like HHV (at least what I know -- visiting in 2011) and it's dedicated 1BR units (and also the Big Island locations) but I'd take a hard look at a 2BR Ko Olina, *specifically *for the points program, if it had a home resort advantage (especially if I could book just a 1BR and keep the Studio points in the points bank).
> 
> I'm counting on Marriott studying all the other points programs hard and building a new points program that institutes the best practices of the others.   I don't begrudge them at all if they will now be re-selling the existing locations (and saving themselves the development dollars) and giving themselves a stable recurring cash flow from the [modest - $99?] annual fees they earn and the [modest - $49?] reservation fees from booking outside of your home resort.
> 
> However, this will only work if they have a Trust-based deed system that is separate inventory from the weeks that are available for reservation by existing owners.
> 
> There will be an immediate deposit of weeks into the Trust from existing developer inventory and from those people that take the eye-watering incentives that are available to them to join.   I suspect then there will be a gradual transfer of weeks into the Trust as Marriott ROFRs the desirable weeks that it needs to be able to provide inventory.  And then they market the entire network of locations for the points-purchaser to visit -- but unlike Worldmark which built in new locations and diluted the existing inventory, Marriott is only diluting the properties that are in the Trust, and you have reasonable protection by your home-resort advantage.
> 
> Another significant positive from this is that Marriott remains committed to the timeshare industry and perhaps even continues to expand, then we all may be thinking about how to creatively get more points (as cheaply as possible) so that we can take advantage of that system.
> 
> So....count me as a cautious optimist that is trying to find out how to benefit from the upcoming system.
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg


They took a very long time to get it off the ground so you may be right.


----------



## PerryM

iconnections said:


> It is too early to worry about this.  I mentioned it once and they told us that they would sell the week for us.  They do this already if they need your week and they are sold out.  *They sold your weeks too, Perry.*  Did you do an upgrade or got rid of the week?  I don't remember that but you did OK.  I know for a fact that you will end up with more money if you go through the Marriott than on the re-sale market.  Eventually, the economy will turn around too and everything will get better again.
> 
> We had another couple doing a courtesy update on our last day and we tagged along with them.  The salesman told them that he would send them an email the moment he was allowed to do so and send us information too.  I have a feeling that most of us will get an email from the last person who gave us an update at the Marriott once the new program is official.  We may even receive two because we had done our own update already.
> 
> Changes are coming or why would they take the beautiful display down at the sales office on Maui?  That wouldn't make sense.  They may start selling any resort by virtual tour from any sales office that are still left.  I saw one the other day but can't find it right now.  Who knows what is going to happen but they can't force us to join.  For many people, it may be even better.
> 
> I hope that we start a new thread once the new program has been introduced or this thread will be the longest one yet.  I believe that we are #2 now.



The 5 Marriotts that I flipped I sold myself; all of the resorts, at that time, were still in construction and resales were not allowed.

With a Point system, there is no "Pre-construction" or "Post-construction" and I don't know if Marriott will still be in the real estate agent game anymore - doubt it.

To all those folks waiting for years to have Marriott sell their weeks - June 15 is going to be a kick in the head....


----------



## taffy19

OK, you did even better.     I know that I have read here that some people sold through the Marriott and came out ahead.  We also were offered quite a bit more than we paid for our developer purchase when we upgraded but Uncle Sam had to spoil it. Still better than a loss that we would have ended up with doing it ourselves.

Personally, I think that Marriott will do re-sales or start the ROFR again with the new program.  It will make the conversion go much faster and they can wait a little longer with starting to build new resorts until the economy is strong again.  JMHO as I have no idea what they will do.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> .....With a Point system, there is no "Pre-construction" or "Post-construction" and I don't know if Marriott will still be in the real estate agent game anymore - doubt it.



This may be true of trust based ownerships but, there are deeded week point based reservation ownerships (HGVC for excample) where a deeded week is assigned a point value and pre-construction pricing can still be done. When HGVC units sell on the re-sale market, it's the deeded week that is sold, not the points. The points still follow the week but you are buying a specific resort and you are assigned a specific week and unit number on your deed.

You're making to many assumptions and banking on them being fact. You could be correct but it's to early to toss the baby out with the bath water.


----------



## DanCali

Dean said:


> ...Equally, or even more important to me, is how will my non developer weeks be treated in such a system as they're the ones I'm likely to want to convert.



An equally important question is how will future resale owners be treated. If they are treated in an adverse manner this affects everyone's equity (retail and resale owners) and there will be a huge evaporation of value... 

It seems that some here would be more upset if lawmakers took 2% of our retirement savings to cover deficits than Marriott destroying 20%-50% of timeshare market value by unilaterally changing the rules... The fact that it's a discretionary item doesn't mean it's worthless. And any loss of market value between now and 4-6 months after a new program launches (if it launches) can be attributed to the new rules. 

*Remember what Marriott did to your equity value before you throw more dollars at them.*


----------



## PerryM

DanCali said:


> An equally important question is how will future resale owners be treated. If they are treated in an adverse manner this affects everyone's equity (retail and resale owners) and there will be a huge evaporation of value...
> 
> It seems that some here would be more upset if lawmakers took 2% of our retirement savings to cover deficits than Marriott destroying 20%-50% of timeshare market value by unilaterally changing the rules... The fact that it's a discretionary item doesn't mean it's worthless. And any loss of market value between now and 4-6 months after a new program launches (if it launches) can be attributed to the new rules.
> 
> *Remember what Marriott did to your equity value before you throw more dollars at them.*



Good grief, both are losers and hopefully won't happen...


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> This may be true of trust based ownerships but, there are deeded week point based reservation ownerships (HGVC for excample) where a deeded week is assigned a point value and pre-construction pricing can still be done. When HGVC units sell on the re-sale market, it's the deeded week that is sold, not the points. The points still follow the week but you are buying a specific resort and you are assigned a specific week and unit number on your deed.
> 
> You're making to many assumptions and banking on them being fact. You could be correct but it's to early to toss the baby out with the bath water.



I doubt Marriott is going to move 1,000,000 weeks to trusts - the legal expense will be astronomical and unnecessary.

I'm assuming that Marriott will sell "blind" packages of Points.  E.g. 100,000 Points made up of 4 deeded weeks that you won't know until you sign the paperwork to buy them.  The MFs will be tied to those deeded weeks.

Salesreps won't know what weeks go to make up the package just the number of Points and the MFs that go with it.  Some packages will have lower MFs than others.

Just a guess and a simple way to hide the weeks from the owners.  Once the owner signs the paperwork Marriott will just care about owners selling the deeds without telling Marriott but the ROFR prevents that from happening.


----------



## Dean

DanCali said:


> An equally important question is how will future resale owners be treated. If they are treated in an adverse manner this affects everyone's equity (retail and resale owners) and there will be a huge evaporation of value...


Not necessarily.  Frankly, I expect future resale buyers to have less, maybe a lot less, value and options going forward as in most points systems I am aware of.  I also respect the right of the developer to distinguish themselves from the resale market.  As I said previously, I don't think it's Marriott responsibility to protect OUR values, only theirs but obviously some disagree.


----------



## PerryM

*WMR - Weapon of Mass Revenge...*



Dean said:


> Not necessarily.  Frankly, I expect future resale buyers to have less, maybe a lot less, value and options going forward as in most points systems I am aware of.  *I also respect the right of the developer to distinguish themselves from the resale market.*  As I said previously, I don't think it's Marriott responsibility to protect OUR values, only theirs but obviously some disagree.



Timeshare developers have always had a hard time dealing with resales - because what they sell is a resale!  There is no such timeshare as "Brand spanking new" - they sell units that are well worn just like you and I.

Hence there is this developer mentality of "Us versus 400,000 owners" which can only take place when what they sell is so full of pork that there is a difference to begin with.

Marriott had a very benign difference, as a developer, the MRP.  Starting about 4 years ago Marriott seems to have decided that it wasn't enough to take on 400,000 owners.  The new internal exchange system is years and years of pent up rage directed at you and I, the loyal owner.

Make no mistake about it, the new internal exchange system is a weapon of mass revenge against the 400,000 owners for all those lost sales over the years...


----------



## JCerniglow

We own both disney and marriott.  Disney is a point based system.  We absolutely love the flexibility.  Short stays.  borrowing and banking points from year to year.  We bought marriott for the locations and have said repeatedly that we wish it would have disney's flexibility.  Our member fees are attached to the number of points we own.  we can also buy small add on point packages (25 for cash and 50 for financing) to increase our membership to book larger rooms, go during peak season or stay longer.  It does, however,require more planning than booking one week each year in your purchased resort.  Also, I would hope that the point system would improve the chances of internal trades so that one is not at the mercy of an exchange company.  At disney I have a home resort advantage.  Specifically, I can book my home resort at 11 months before the stay and any other disney resort at 7 months.  It could not be easier.  Change is always hard but not always bad.


----------



## PerryM

*Perry's Timeshare Rule #17*

I love making predictions - it forces me to try to think ahead and plan for contingencies.  I'm human so many of my predictions are wrong and I've got to live with my average.

My focus, in this debate, is to present the worst case scenario and get ready to live with them.  I sure hope I didn't miss something so horrible that I sloughed it off as being ridiculous.

Maybe Marriott will come out with a fantastic new program and we can all hold hands and hum.  (That's not a forecast on my part)

Just 2 weeks and we can actually make decisions - and this all boils down to 400,000+ decisions made.

But one thing I'm certain of *the more the developers disparage resales the more the resale prices fall and hence the more they feel they must disparage them even more.*  I'm going to take credit for that fundamental timeshare rule - that would be Perry's Timeshare rule #17.  (Don't ask about 1-16)


----------



## potchak

PerryM said:


> My guess is that a Marriott bought week can become part of the new Points exchange system for $2,500.
> 
> Resales are able to do the same thing but cost more - my guess is $3,500.
> 
> In 2 weeks we will find out just how much money Marriott want's to extort/////charge you to become part of this wonderful new way to do what II does already.



Frankly as I have said, I have absolutely no interest in spending 3 months of mortgage payments for "more flexibility". I think the most I would spend per week is $500, and even that is pushing it since I own 4 weeks with Marriott (2 EOY, 2 EY). Perry, if what you say ends up being the truth, I would owe them $11K to join their program which is not something I am willing to fork over when we are worried whether or not we are going to have a job tomorrow, which by the way, is now almost a years worth of mortgage payments. Not going to happen in this economy. 



GregT said:


> Perry, I believe the reason Wyndham points are worthless is not becaues of the Trust-based points system (where deeds are held in a Trust) but because of the anti-owner rules that have been instituted by Wyndham.  They've introduced a number of fees that are expensive, restricted the ability of owners to rent points to one another, and gone after the owners who have a rental business.  However, it's a good system with very good quality properties.
> 
> HGVC on the other hand, has not been punitive to its existing owners, resale or direct purchasers, and it exercises ROFR.  The stability of the system (and high quality of the properties) has helped it to sustain some of the value of its points in resale.
> 
> Marriott could easily incorporate the best of all systems because they've seen what works and what doesn't.     I think we all agree that Marriott is doing this because it's in their best corporate self-interest (profitability), but that a points-based system doesn't preclude them from making new (and existing owners happy).
> 
> Their points system could be a big success if it has the following:
> 
> 1) Home-resort booking advantage (HGVC/Wyndham)
> 2) Length of stay (and check-in day) flexibility (Wyndham/Worldmark/HGVC)
> 3) Resale price stability (either if they are a ROFR buyer of resale deeds for the points program or if deeds are perceived as desirable)
> 4) Reasonable up-front cost to join (with resale owners paying more to join)
> 5) Creative access to Marriott hotels (or Ritz Carlton Club)
> 6) Ability to book view desired (HGVC/Worldmark/Wyndham)
> 7) Ability to space-bank into II with good trading power (Worldmark)
> 8) Ability to rent vacant units last minute (Open Season in HGVC/Bonus time in Worldmark)
> 9) Ability to cancel reservation with reasonable notice, and no loss of points (Worldmark/HGVC/Wyndham)
> 10) Bank credits/borrow credits for different periods (HGVC/Worldmark/Wyndham)
> 11) The up-front payment covers all legacy Marriott properties, not just one property
> 
> I've been thinking about adding HGVC because I like HHV (at least what I know -- visiting in 2011) and it's dedicated 1BR units (and also the Big Island locations) but I'd take a hard look at a 2BR Ko Olina, *specifically *for the points program, if it had a home resort advantage (especially if I could book just a 1BR and keep the Studio points in the points bank).
> 
> I'm counting on Marriott studying all the other points programs hard and building a new points program that institutes the best practices of the others.   I don't begrudge them at all if they will now be re-selling the existing locations (and saving themselves the development dollars) and giving themselves a stable recurring cash flow from the [modest - $99?] annual fees they earn and the [modest - $49?] reservation fees from booking outside of your home resort.
> 
> However, this will only work if they have a Trust-based deed system that is separate inventory from the weeks that are available for reservation by existing owners.
> 
> There will be an immediate deposit of weeks into the Trust from existing developer inventory and from those people that take the eye-watering incentives that are available to them to join.   I suspect then there will be a gradual transfer of weeks into the Trust as Marriott ROFRs the desirable weeks that it needs to be able to provide inventory.  And then they market the entire network of locations for the points-purchaser to visit -- but unlike Worldmark which built in new locations and diluted the existing inventory, Marriott is only diluting the properties that are in the Trust, and you have reasonable protection by your home-resort advantage.
> 
> Another significant positive from this is that Marriott remains committed to the timeshare industry and perhaps even continues to expand, then we all may be thinking about how to creatively get more points (as cheaply as possible) so that we can take advantage of that system.
> 
> So....count me as a cautious optimist that is trying to find out how to benefit from the upcoming system.
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg


I would also like to see lower points for within the old Flexchange period of less than 59 days or something. I know Worldmark does this. You can get any size room within I think 60 days for 3000 pts or something, so it is like 20% of the normal. I am not totally familiar with the Worldmark program, but I remember I loved this ability. I think that could really enhance the program as well. They could also offer these as internal "getaways" if people do not have enough points to cover the week. 

Just another thought.



JCerniglow said:


> We own both disney and marriott.  Disney is a point based system.  We absolutely love the flexibility.  Short stays.  borrowing and banking points from year to year.  We bought marriott for the locations and have said repeatedly that we wish it would have disney's flexibility.  Our member fees are attached to the number of points we own.  we can also buy small add on point packages (25 for cash and 50 for financing) to increase our membership to book larger rooms, go during peak season or stay longer.  It does, however,require more planning than booking one week each year in your purchased resort.  Also, I would hope that the point system would improve the chances of internal trades so that one is not at the mercy of an exchange company.  At disney I have a home resort advantage.  Specifically, I can book my home resort at 11 months before the stay and any other disney resort at 7 months.  It could not be easier.  Change is always hard but not always bad.



We own Disney as well and love the ability to select how long we want to stay. I am definitely feeling like Marriott will be going that way with their new points system. Makes sense. Their current reservation systems can already handle that since their Hotels do that every day. 

I have to admit, I am very curious as to what they are going to come up with because I am hopeful that it will be great. What I am not hopeful about is how much it is going to cost me. I spent a ton of money buying these things from Marriott, and if they are telling me they want another boatload of money, they can forget it, I will keep my II membership and exchange that way.


----------



## tombo

With regards to Marriott taking the deeded weeks to own and giving the prior owners points, yes they can do that very thing, Festiva is doing that at resorts every day. When you join Festiva's Adventure Club you give Festiva your deeded week (and $1000's of dollars) to become a member who has x number of points for 30 years but who no longer owns the week, it is now owned by Festiva. They can't and don't "take" owner's deeded weeks, they convince them that if they don't convert to points that the deeded owners will never be able to exchange for a good week because the entire system is moving to points. It is a stupid move but many people are convinced to do that.

Will Marriott simply assign points to the deeded week you own rather than make you give up your deeded week for points? Probably, but Marriott will begin the threats and warnings very soon informing you that your week will become useless if you don't join the points program. The scenario of only getting February at the Beach or October at the ski resort as the only choices available to those who don't convert to points will be rolled out shortly. Many Marriott owners will convert to points, and every time someone converts there will be less weeks for weeks owners to trade for. The points people will deposit their weeks internally with the Marriott points system instead of with II shutting out non points owners from access to weeks they had access to in the past. The more people they can get to convert to points, the harder it will be to trade for prime times/locations if you are not in the points program. However far fewer people will convert to points than Marriott will lead you to believe.

 The full court press is coming to a Marriott resort near you. Don't fall victim. Points are a thing that can be manipulated. You get 1000 points to convert and new retail buyers get the same 1000 points each year, plus a 500 point annual bonus for buying today. New retail buyers in the future with the same underlying deeded week as you own might get more points. The new resorts as they are built will get and require more points than you own locking you out of new locations unless you buy upgrades, new points, etc. If you own a platinum week you know exactly what you own and what it will trade for. If you convert to points you have converted to an exchange medium with no real fixed value which can be manipulated and changed within the points system at the whim of Marriott. 

I would remain a deeded week owner as long as it worked well for me and sell when it no longer works well which is exactly what I am doing at a resort I own where Festiva took over. I will never let them to convince me to convert to points and to just trust Festiva, Marriott, or any developer to do what is best for me in the future with regards to what my points are worth. A deeded week is a deeded week, points are an imaginary currency with no real value. Just say no to points.


----------



## indyhorizons

potchak said:


> What I am not hopeful about is how much it is going to cost me. I spent a ton of money buying these things from Marriott, and if they are telling me they want another boatload of money, they can forget it, I will keep my II membership and exchange that way.



Michelle, you're absolutely right, this would be ridiculous, especially in this economy. What I am thinking they will do is incentivize people by offering tons of MR points (where are the points junkies?) and/or making the new resorts points based only, so as to lure those who might not otherwise convert. Honestly, unless it is free to convert, I think I will be staying with II also. It's been a great ride, but I'm afraid for more money, I will have to be getting off at the next stop.


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## jlf58

Although I might have an unfair advantage predicting , and this is not from new information as I have nothing new, last I heard would make it more like
$400 to upgrade
$1500 for resale owners ( This is a guess as I was just told more than developer owners)






Originally Posted by PerryM  
My guess is that a Marriott bought week can become part of the new Points exchange system for $2,500.

Resales are able to do the same thing but cost more - my guess is $3,500.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*I Resemble That Remark.*




PerryM said:


> Timeshare developers have always had a hard time dealing with resales - because what they sell is a resale!  There is no such timeshare as "Brand spanking new" - they sell units that are well worn just like you and I.


Exactly right.  

There is no such thing as a new timeshare. 

All timeshares are _used-used-used._ 

By the time any owner -- new, old, recent, long-established, newbie, oldie, savvy, doofus, etc., _any_ owner -- shows up & checks in, chances are other people will have previously been staying there, occupying that very timeshare unit.  

That's used any way you shake it. 

So the timeshare companies are not only competing for sales against other timeshare companies, but they're also doing all they can to push back against resales -- which are the same product for next to nothing that the companies are trying to sell for big bux.  Otherwise, as word leaks out & starts to spread about the reality that all timeshares are _used-used-used_, the timeshare companies are in a rough place.  

The timeshare companies' options are to keep on hoping on the 1 hand that we rubes won't catch on about resales, or on the other hand to set up a proprietary points-based system or some VIP-style status gimmick intended to lure in some full-freight buyers anyway. 

TUG is the only way I know of to push back against the pushback. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## indyhorizons

Fletch said:


> Although I might have an unfair advantage predicting , and this is not from new information as I have nothing new, last I heard would make it more like
> $400 to upgrade
> $1500 for resale owners ( This is a guess as I was just told more than developer owners)
> 
> 
> 
> .



Honestly Fletch, even at the prices you have quoted above, I believe I would be hard pressed to convert. Maybe I'm just a dinosaur who is digging in their heels, but I agree with Michelle, I refuse to give Marriott another dime.  What with all other expenes skyrocketing (exchange fees, maintenance fees, airfare) this is becoming less and less fun, and I for one refuse to be held captive for a purchase I made 10 years ago. 

I will use what I have bought however, I see no advantage to upgrading or whatever you want to call it, even if it is a one time fee.  I know there are plenty of people who have points based systems and love them; however, the disadvantage, imho is that you can not control how many points it "costs" to vacation. Whereas with my deeded week, I know that if I pay my ever increasing maintenance fees, I can vacation, at minimum, where I bought. Period. If I'm lucky, I can pay an exchange fee and go somewhere else.  End of discussion...


----------



## potchak

At $400 I would probably consider it, depending on what I would get for that, but even $1500 for my 1 resale week I think is too high. I stayed at a non Marriott this past weekend, and even though it was a Gold resort, it was no where close to Marriott quality, so I have seen the light in that regard. If there is a Marriott in the area vs some other gold resort (with the exception of the Four Seasons/Westins/Hyatts/etc) I will definitely select to go with Marriott. But they have to make it affordable and maybe some major incentives to do it. I would have to look at each one of our weeks and determine if it is worth it to buy into their points program. But I have a feeling I am not going to get the value I get today with my two Manor Club weeks (locking off 1 and getting 3 weeks with it, and trading back into 2bds.)


----------



## BocaBum99

I'd definitely pay $1500 to get access to flexchange units that are primarily Marriott developer units.  If that is the price, it's a winner.  I could sell it myself.


----------



## m61376

Dean said:


> Perry, again an unrealistic slant that is likely worse than the worst case scenario in my book.  Obviously any value ($$$ or otherwise) will depend on the specifics of the system and any conversion options.  It's likely that many will be better off under a new system and depending on the specifics, it's possible that most will be better off under any new system (esp Gold and Silver and possibly bronze).  The question is how do they get from old to new and what will it cost.



I am a bit confused as to how lower value weeks will potentially be better off. I understand the concept of combining points, but I'm not so sure people will be thrilled about paying several years of MF's for a single week, versus the uptrading that many have managed to achieve through II. 

This outlook is a complete 180 from what Fletch had posted way back- that lower season owners would be less likely to join.


----------



## PerryM

*It's going to hurt folks...*



Fletch said:


> Although I might have an unfair advantage predicting , and this is not from new information as I have nothing new, last I heard would make it more like
> $400 to upgrade
> $1500 for resale owners ( This is a guess as I was just told more than developer owners)
> ...



*For a Marriott bought week:*
$400 to convert now
$1,500 lost on resale 
-----------
$1,900 net cost per week to join


*For a resale Marriott bought week:*
$1,500 to convert now
$1,500 lost on resale
-------------
$3,000 net cost per week to join

*For a Marriott owner who decides not to join:*
$1,500 lost on resale per week



If the average Marriott owner has 2 weeks this new exchange scheme will cost EACH Marriott owner:


*Marriott bought 2 weeks and joins - $3,800*
*Resale bought 2 weeks and joins - $6,000*
*Marriott owner who does not convert 2 weeks - $3,000*

All because Marriott wants to chuck selling timeshare weeks and get into the Point exchange club business.

Thanks a lot Marriott.....


----------



## RedDogSD

Fletch said:


> Although I might have an unfair advantage predicting , and this is not from new information as I have nothing new, last I heard would make it more like
> $400 to upgrade
> $1500 for resale owners ( This is a guess as I was just told more than developer owners)



I would do it for $1500.  However, I will need to carefully hear about how the rules will be implemented.  HGVC was pretty smart about it in that they kept the Home Resort Priority, but ONLY if you were willing to take the exact thing you bought.  So, since many people want to use the lockoff feature, or go to a smaller unit to save points, they do not get home resort priority, so they compete for the same reservations as everyone else.  I am ok with that.  If all of the Marriott Hawaii owners get 3 months to make reservations before any of the rest of us can touch it, I will not be thrilled.


----------



## m61376

tombo said:


> The full court press is coming to a Marriott resort near you. Don't fall victim. Points are a thing that can be manipulated. You get 1000 points to convert and new retail buyers get the same 1000 points each year, plus a 500 point annual bonus for buying today. New retail buyers in the future with the same underlying deeded week as you own might get more points. The new resorts as they are built will get and require more points than you own locking you out of new locations unless you buy upgrades, new points, etc. If you own a platinum week you know exactly what you own and what it will trade for. If you convert to points you have converted to an exchange medium with no real fixed value which can be manipulated and changed within the points system at the whim of Marriott.


That's actually one of the bigger pitfalls I see with a potential new program, unless Marriott ties the point valuations to an objective real market demand value; IF the points reflected retail rental prices, I could see that as being an equitable comparison of relative values, and could easily be equitably recalculated for future resorts, with figures adjusted to reflect natural cost increases due to inflation over time.

The natural progression of prices over time I see as a big issue- just as a resort constructed today is more expensive to construct than one built in 2000, resorts built in 2015 will be more expensive to construct than today. If they are equivalent properties, however, should they be assigned a higher point value? And, what's the limit- are there any built in controls? In reality, IF Marriott goes to a home resort based system where each property/view/size commands a certain number of points (versus simply a trust based points system), what prevents Marriott from assigning 25% or even higher point valuations just to attract buyers. For example, if/when they develop the Cancun property, they could arbitrarily entice people with 50% higher point values (this is not a crazy notion- Starwood actually did something similar), such that other prime Caribbean weeks couldn't trade in in equivalent seasons (or perhaps would have enough points for 4 or 5 days or a 1BR versus a 2 where they own).


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I doubt Marriott is going to move 1,000,000 weeks to trusts - the legal expense will be astronomical and unnecessary.
> 
> I'm assuming that Marriott will sell "blind" packages of Points.  E.g. 100,000 Points made up of 4 deeded weeks that you won't know until you sign the paperwork to buy them.  The MFs will be tied to those deeded weeks.
> 
> Salesreps won't know what weeks go to make up the package just the number of Points and the MFs that go with it.  Some packages will have lower MFs than others.
> 
> Just a guess and a simple way to hide the weeks from the owners.  Once the owner signs the paperwork Marriott will just care about owners selling the deeds without telling Marriott but the ROFR prevents that from happening.




Either they're going to sell deeded weeks like they have in the past, only with a points total that goes along with the week for an internal exchange club/system, or they'll sell trusts.

With a trust all they have to do is assign the inventory they own a total number of points. There is no deeded week that goes with a trust. There is only a grouping of units owned and managed by the trust with a set number of points associated with those deeds. Points are then sold but, there are no deeded weeks or deeds to process. You only own the RTU within the trust based on the fraction of the trust you own. That fraction is reflected by the points. MF's are then set the the HOA's of the resrots in the trust, the trust pays it's share of the MF's based on the number of units the trust owns. The total MF's plus the expenses associated with managing the trust are then divided by the number of points in the trust to set the MF per point. Individual owners pay based on that fee X the number of points they own. 

I know of no deeded weeks system in which an actual deed is issued where they sell points packages and then blindly issue deeds. That would create a nightmare of complaints as owners assigned weeks at resorts where HOA's set higher MF's would complain about owners who were assigned deeds at resorts with cheaper MF's. It's not a workable scenario to sell points packages and blindly tie deeds to that package. 

HGVC, who has deeded weeks with an internal points plan doesn't even do it as you're suggesting. Their solution was to sell deeded weeks but, all standard deeded weeks have the same points value. A platinum 2 bedroom standard unit/standard view is 7,000 points. A gold season standar unit/standard view 2 bedroom unit is 5,000 points. Ocean view, ocean front, upgraded amenities, penthouse units, event weeks all require more points. 

Either Marriott will attach points to deeded weeks for their internal exchange program or they'll move to a trust based ownership where no one owns a deed. They'll just own a fraction of a trust with the RTU any week in that trust.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I love making predictions - it forces me to try to think ahead and plan for contingencies.  I'm human so many of my predictions are wrong and I've got to live with my average.
> 
> My focus, in this debate, is to present the worst case scenario and get ready to live with them.  I sure hope I didn't miss something so horrible that I sloughed it off as being ridiculous.
> 
> Maybe Marriott will come out with a fantastic new program and we can all hold hands and hum.  (That's not a forecast on my part)
> 
> Just 2 weeks and we can actually make decisions - and this all boils down to 400,000+ decisions made.
> 
> But one thing I'm certain of *the more the developers disparage resales the more the resale prices fall and hence the more they feel they must disparage them even more.*  I'm going to take credit for that fundamental timeshare rule - that would be Perry's Timeshare rule #17.  (Don't ask about 1-16)



If Marriott forces resale prices to fall, then that would be a good thing for those, like yourself, who live to buy resale at deeply discounted pricing. You get to enjoy the week you want and pay an even smaller fraction for the privledge. So what's the worry? Last year weeks were going for thousands. In your worst case scenario, by July 1 they'll be going for hundreds. Sounds like a good deal if you buy resale to me.


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> Although I might have an unfair advantage predicting , and this is not from new information as I have nothing new, last I heard would make it more like
> $400 to upgrade
> $1500 for resale owners ( This is a guess as I was just told more than developer owners)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by PerryM
> My guess is that a Marriott bought week can become part of the new Points exchange system for $2,500.
> 
> Resales are able to do the same thing but cost more - my guess is $3,500.



This seems to be a more reasonable guess than Perry's the sky is about to fall predictions.


----------



## timeos2

*It would be a great deal at those prices*

Speaking in the most general of terms a price of $1400 or so for the points would be a steal!  We paid less than $1000 for our Club Sunterra membership back in the late 90's which today is at least $2995. It has turned out to be a great bargain and value although recent fee increases have negatively impacted the value and many more may cause us to drop it. Regardless we've got our money out and are happy we got in when it started. We're also EXTREMELY happy we held on to our deeded rights and the voting/home resort that goes along with that choice. We would never consider giving up our deed to be a points/trust member.  In general Marriott properties are well above DRI's, although at much higher annual costs, so a similar cost to buy in should bring even better returns. We've had luck getting Marriott's at a discount easily from the DRI/II priority - I hope that doesn't end from a selfish view. 

The doom and gloom about "points inflation" and "being locked out of newer resorts" is all hogwash as anyone in an existing points system (we belong to 3) can tell you. The very flexibility of points means IF you want to visit a newer resort or use a more popular toime or a larger unit - whatever - than what you own it is accomplished easily by poolin, renting, banking, borrowing or, as a very last and in over a decade unneeded for us, buying more points. The system is set up to accomplish that unlike weeks trades which has far more barriers to getting the newest or best with your old, deeded week and place & hope deposit with II/RCI ever could. Can you amass the points needed? Is the resort/time/size out there? Reserve it. Done. Week for week could never be as good. 

Hopefully the program will be unveiled soon and all this insane speculation will finally end. As always if you are happy with the II week trade system then ignore whatever they may offer. But it will be tempting as they should have a real good story to tell and a product you will find useful. If it's as cost effective as Fletch estimates then it should be a big winner and plenty of owners - new and current - should be easily sold.  Time will tell as always.


----------



## PerryM

*Vultures take note....*



dougp26364 said:


> If Marriott forces resale prices to fall, then that would be a good thing for those, *like yourself, who live to buy resale at deeply discounted pricing. You get to enjoy the week you want and pay an even smaller fraction for the privledge.* So what's the worry? Last year weeks were going for thousands. In your worst case scenario, by July 1 they'll be going for hundreds. Sounds like a good deal if you buy resale to me.



Why didn't I think of that?

Thanks Marriott - I'll just wait for the resale market to implode and then snap up juicy weeks for my own usage.  Just have to get past the crying and blubbering about lost jobs, medical emergencies, divorce, death, and other reasons folks will sell Marriotts for $1 and I'm going to do them a huge favor.

See - I am a nice guy.


----------



## indyhorizons

The doom and gloom about "points inflation" and "being locked out of newer resorts" is all hogwash as anyone in an existing points system (we belong to 3) can tell you. The very flexibility of points means IF you want to visit a newer resort or use a more popular toime or a larger unit - whatever - than what you own it is accomplished easily by poolin, renting, banking, borrowing or, as a very last and in over a decade unneeded for us, buying more points. The system is set up to accomplish that unlike weeks trades which has far more barriers to getting the newest or best with your old, deeded week and place & hope deposit with II/RCI ever could. Can you amass the points needed? Is the resort/time/size out there? Reserve it. Done. Week for week could never be as good. 



Let me start my saying, why should I pool my points to get what I want in the new system, if I can take the 1 week I own and exchange like for like. I know there are people who like the flexibility of points, and to each his own. I prefer 1 week intervals just fine, and am hoping the attempt to attract new owners/buyers, they don't find a way to make what we have always enjoyed no longer appealing.


----------



## m61376

PerryM said:


> *For a Marriott bought week:*
> $400 to convert now
> $1,500 lost on resale
> -----------
> $1,900 net cost per week to join
> 
> 
> *For a resale Marriott bought week:*
> $1,500 to convert now
> $1,500 lost on resale
> -------------
> $3,000 net cost per week to join
> 
> *For a Marriott owner who decides not to join:*
> $1,500 lost on resale per week
> 
> 
> 
> If the average Marriott owner has 2 weeks this new exchange scheme will cost EACH Marriott owner:
> 
> 
> *Marriott bought 2 weeks and joins - $3,800*
> *Resale bought 2 weeks and joins - $6,000*
> *Marriott owner who does not convert 2 weeks - $3,000*
> 
> All because Marriott wants to chuck selling timeshare weeks and get into the Point exchange club business.
> 
> Thanks a lot Marriott.....



While your analysis does have merit, I doubt that most people will look at it this way. They will think about what it costs them now, and not what they potentially will lose on resales.

I do agree, however, that ultimately whatever cost is entailed will be reflected in the sales price, unless the membership in the points system passes along with the sale. In that case, either the current owner pays to convert or the buyer pays (and theoretically lowers the sales price), but there is a single cost.

I think the bigger issue would be IF Marriott were to exclude future resales, and only have either a complete or fee based grandfathering of current resale owners. That would severely impact the resale market, imho.

So, while I know many here feel that resales are an inconsequential consideration, I really disagree. It boils down to expectations at purchase; some people feel that since Marriott makes it clear on the paperwork that there is no guaranteed underlying value, that they bought without consideration of retained value. I bought expecting some retained value and, perhaps erroneously, but since I bought on the resale market I assumed that over the long term there wouldn't be significant depreciation (of course, subject to the market conditions which loosely reflects real estate trends). I do know people who bought at initial pre-construction who expected to retain value as well. 

So, while I have no idea of whether I am in the majority or minority wrt an expectation of some retention of value, I do know others feel the same way. If Marriott was to cannibalize resale values, I think it would be bad overall for the company, because I do think many people would think twice about shelling out thousands of dollars in advance purely for pre-paid vacation rights; destination clubs were built and collapsed on this concept (while it is true they did hold appeal, primarily dues to their higher end properties, many have fallen by the wayside). I may be wrong, but I think many (if not most) buyers, when deciding whether a purchase makes sense, count on a selling value in the calculations. In fact, the calculator here on Tug a few years back included that, and when salespeople have espoused how great a deal buying was, they did allude to the concept of retained value. Without the notion of retained value it is value, it makes it harder to justify purchase prices, esp. as they climb well into the five figures.


----------



## indyhorizons

timeos2 said:


> Speaking in the most general of terms a price of $1400 or so for the points would be a steal!  We paid less than $1000 for our Club Sunterra membership back in the late 90's which today is at least $2995. It has turned out to be a great bargain and value although recent fee increases have negatively impacted the value and many more may cause us to drop it. Regardless we've got our money out and are happy we got in when it started. We're also EXTREMELY happy we held on to our deeded rights and the voting/home resort that goes along with that choice. We would never consider giving up our deed to be a points/trust member.  In general Marriott properties are well above DRI's, although at much higher annual costs, so a similar cost to buy in should bring even better returns. We've had luck getting Marriott's at a discount easily from the DRI/II priority - I hope that doesn't end from a selfish view.



Explain something to me, are you saying you paid a total of $1000, or are you saying in addition to xxx for the initial outlay your were requested/required to pay another $1000 to convert to a new system? If it is the latter, then where is the bargain? I am obviously missing something.


----------



## indyhorizons

PerryM said:


> Why didn't I think of that?
> 
> Thanks Marriott - I'll just wait for the resale market to implode and then snap up juicy weeks for my own usage.  Just have to get past the crying and blubbering about lost jobs, medical emergencies, divorce, death, and other reasons folks will sell Marriotts for $1 and I'm going to do them a huge favor.



Good one Perry. :rofl:


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> *For a Marriott bought week:*
> $400 to convert now
> $1,500 lost on resale
> -----------
> $1,900 net cost per week to join
> 
> 
> *For a resale Marriott bought week:*
> $1,500 to convert now
> $1,500 lost on resale
> -------------
> $3,000 net cost per week to join
> 
> *For a Marriott owner who decides not to join:*
> $1,500 lost on resale per week
> 
> 
> 
> If the average Marriott owner has 2 weeks this new exchange scheme will cost EACH Marriott owner:
> 
> 
> *Marriott bought 2 weeks and joins - $3,800*
> *Resale bought 2 weeks and joins - $6,000*
> *Marriott owner who does not convert 2 weeks - $3,000*
> 
> All because Marriott wants to chuck selling timeshare weeks and get into the Point exchange club business.
> 
> Thanks a lot Marriott.....



You're basing your cacluations on Marriott charging per week. DRI charged ONE fee no matter how many weeks you owned. What basis makes you believe Marriott will charge a per week fee?

It appears to me that you keep pulling stuff out of the air in an attempt to scare the pants off of everyone. The drama is entertaining but it falls flat when it comes to facts.


----------



## indyhorizons

dougp26364 said:


> You're basing your cacluations on Marriott charging per week. DRI charged ONE fee no matter how many weeks you owned. What basis makes you believe Marriott will charge a per week fee?
> 
> It appears to me that you keep pulling stuff out of the air in an attempt to scare the pants off of everyone. The drama is entertaining but it falls flat when it comes to facts.



Perry wasn't the only one who implied or stated there would be a per week owned fee...


----------



## PerryM

*Back to the future...*

Does anyone here think their Marriott ownership will increase in "worth" after paying the membership fees and loss of resale value?  If so, then pay more bucks and get more "worth" is how to exploit this.

Is Marriott is going to do a better job of exchanging reservations than II?

I don't assume that for a moment and when this new system hits and years go by we will be back to where we are today except it will have cost us a lot of money up front and in the rear.

For every problem solved there will be 2 more that take its place.

The only winner here is Marriott - you do know that right?


----------



## DanCali

Dean said:


> Not necessarily.  Frankly, I expect future resale buyers to have less, maybe a lot less, value and options going forward as in most points systems I am aware of.  I also respect the right of the developer to distinguish themselves from the resale market.  As I said previously, I don't think it's Marriott responsibility to protect OUR values, only theirs but obviously some disagree.



That would be a great sales pitch - pay us $50K for an asset you won't be able to sell for $5K ten days from now, or whenever we make changes that suit us in the future. 

Unfortunately, they are not that honest when they sell the product...


----------



## timeos2

*Own to use in points can be many resorts rather than one*



indyhorizons said:


> Explain something to me, are you saying you paid a total of $1000, or are you saying in addition to xxx for the initial outlay your were requested/required to pay another $1000 to convert to a new system? If it is the latter, then where is the bargain? I am obviously missing something.



We paid $1000 to add our existing deeded ownership into the Club Points system. The same as paying $149 to join RCI as an exchange option as all of these are just different exchange options. We could have simply stayed with RCI/II week for week but found the points system a better choice. Until 2008 the annual fee for Club was $139 or less - it has skyrocketed to $279 in the past three years which is making it less and less desirable. Of course RCI & II fees have also gone up but not as drastically. As always it is best to own to use and a good points system allows "use" to mean many resorts rather than just one you own at and the need to trade for the rest using outside and costly services.


----------



## potchak

Well, if it is $400 per account, then I think I would be happy with that, but somehow I seriously doubt it. And would they make it be an all or nothing or could we pick and choose which ones we want in the program?


----------



## DanCali

PerryM said:


> *For a Marriott bought week:*
> $400 to convert now
> $1,500 lost on resale
> -----------
> $1,900 net cost per week to join
> 
> 
> *For a resale Marriott bought week:*
> $1,500 to convert now
> $1,500 lost on resale
> -------------
> $3,000 net cost per week to join
> 
> *For a Marriott owner who decides not to join:*
> $1,500 lost on resale per week
> 
> 
> 
> If the average Marriott owner has 2 weeks this new exchange scheme will cost EACH Marriott owner:
> 
> 
> *Marriott bought 2 weeks and joins - $3,800*
> *Resale bought 2 weeks and joins - $6,000*
> *Marriott owner who does not convert 2 weeks - $3,000*
> 
> All because Marriott wants to chuck selling timeshare weeks and get into the Point exchange club business.
> 
> Thanks a lot Marriott.....



Fletch estimated $1500 per resale week - I assume that is existing resale owners... If the cost for future resale owners is higher (some imply it might be), this looks worse of course.

I call this evaporation of value. We should have a new Marriott satisfaction survey 6 months into the system and compare the before and after... My guess is it will look like the Starwood satisfaction survey.


----------



## BocaBum99

tombo said:


> With regards to Marriott taking the deeded weeks to own and giving the prior owners points, yes they can do that very thing, Festiva is doing that at resorts every day. When you join Festiva's Adventure Club you give Festiva your deeded week (and $1000's of dollars) to become a member who has x number of points for 30 years but who no longer owns the week, it is now owned by Festiva. They can't and don't "take" owner's deeded weeks, they convince them that if they don't convert to points that the deeded owners will never be able to exchange for a good week because the entire system is moving to points. It is a stupid move but many people are convinced to do that.
> 
> Will Marriott simply assign points to the deeded week you own rather than make you give up your deeded week for points? Probably, but Marriott will begin the threats and warnings very soon informing you that your week will become useless if you don't join the points program. The scenario of only getting February at the Beach or October at the ski resort as the only choices available to those who don't convert to points will be rolled out shortly. Many Marriott owners will convert to points, and every time someone converts there will be less weeks for weeks owners to trade for. The points people will deposit their weeks internally with the Marriott points system instead of with II shutting out non points owners from access to weeks they had access to in the past. The more people they can get to convert to points, the harder it will be to trade for prime times/locations if you are not in the points program. However far fewer people will convert to points than Marriott will lead you to believe.
> 
> The full court press is coming to a Marriott resort near you. Don't fall victim. Points are a thing that can be manipulated. You get 1000 points to convert and new retail buyers get the same 1000 points each year, plus a 500 point annual bonus for buying today. New retail buyers in the future with the same underlying deeded week as you own might get more points. The new resorts as they are built will get and require more points than you own locking you out of new locations unless you buy upgrades, new points, etc. If you own a platinum week you know exactly what you own and what it will trade for. If you convert to points you have converted to an exchange medium with no real fixed value which can be manipulated and changed within the points system at the whim of Marriott.
> 
> I would remain a deeded week owner as long as it worked well for me and sell when it no longer works well which is exactly what I am doing at a resort I own where Festiva took over. I will never let them to convince me to convert to points and to just trust Festiva, Marriott, or any developer to do what is best for me in the future with regards to what my points are worth. A deeded week is a deeded week, points are an imaginary currency with no real value. Just say no to points.



Nothing you or I can do to stop the conversions to points.  Weeks will be fine for as long as owners want to stay there.  I don't care if Marriott manipulates the system.  As long as I have a loophole I can exploit now and my payback is less than 3 years, they can do anything they want.  I love the idea of Flexchange units for 10000 points on that Asia scale.  Totally worth the $1500 for that privilege. We will see what they numbers actually look like first, though.


----------



## PerryM

DanCali said:


> Fletch estimated $1500 per resale week - I assume that is existing resale owners... If the cost for future resale owners is higher (some imply it might be), this looks worse of course.
> 
> I call this evaporation of value. We should have a new Marriott satisfaction survey 6 months into the system and compare the before and after... My guess is it will look like the Starwood satisfaction survey.



Marriott is famous for "Step Pricing".

For Resale Memberships 1 - 1,000 - $1,500 a week
For Resale Memberships 1,001 - 2,000 - $1,600 a week
etc.

Marriott will simply use owners to establish a "correct" sales price and when sales slow down then they redo the "Step Pricing" to lower values.

I just don't see coming up with a "Fixed membership fee" - that just isn't in their blood - we, the owners, will fight to get that price higher.

P.S.

So yes, the membership fee might be $400 - for the first X number of owners, and then $500 for the next, and $600 for the next...

The pressure to not pay your mortgage and use that money to buy Marriott memberships will be great.  Same with your car insurance, health insurance, and food.....


----------



## bw3

*deeded weeks*



tombo said:


> They can't and don't "take" owner's deeded weeks, they convince them that if they don't convert to points that the deeded owners will never be able to exchange for a good week because the entire system is moving to points. It is a stupid move but many people are convinced to do that.
> 
> The more people they can get to convert to points, the harder it will be to trade for prime times/locations if you are not in the points program. However far fewer people will convert to points than Marriott will lead you to believe.
> 
> If you own a platinum week you know exactly what you own and what it will trade for. If you convert to points you have converted to an exchange medium with no real fixed value which can be manipulated and changed within the points system at the whim of Marriott.
> 
> I would remain a deeded week owner as long as it worked well for me and sell when it no longer works well which is exactly what I am doing at a resort I own where Festiva took over. I will never let them to convince me to convert to points and to just trust Festiva, Marriott, or any developer to do what is best for me in the future with regards to what my points are worth. A deeded week is a deeded week, points are an imaginary currency with no real value. Just say no to points.



Some very good points being made in this thread.  I was wondering when we would get to the issue of deeded weeks in a timeshare regime.  As Tombo mentioned, some owners will keep what they have because they know what they have.  We own 5 gold and 2 platinum weeks at Grande Ocean in Hilton Head.  We have no intention of joining any points program.  We have no need for it.  We mainly stay at the same place.  When we purchased our first weeks in 1992, we contemplated what might happen to timeshare and Marriott at that time.  We only purchased because we knew that Marriott and Interval International might go away but we would still be happy vacationing at Grande Ocean.  As an owner, I think of Marriott as a property manager.  If they continue to do a good job, keep them.  If they begin consistently performing poorly, fire them.  I did not buy a Marriott week.  I bought a Grande Ocean week.  The points program brings an interesting issue for owners even if we do not participate.  If people join the program by surrendering deeded weeks to a trust run by Marriott, then Marriott is an owner.  Marriott could then vote all their weeks to retain Marriott as property manager in spite of how poorly they manage the property.  They have done a spectacular job to date so I do not anticipate this happening tomorrow.  But if they have little chance of losing the contract, they could increase the price or just reduce the staffing and service levels with no ramifications.  This type of conflict of interest can cause major financial meltdowns.  Think of what it could do to deeded ownership.

Then there is the question of what you get for your week.  Bronze weeks are currently worthless at Grande Ocean.  You cannot give them away.  The maintenance fee is $1,062 this year for each week.  If buyers are paying zero for these weeks, how many points would Marriott give them for a Bronze week?  And if they give, just for example, 5,000 points for a bronze week and 10,000 points for a silver week, will the maintenance fees remain the same for each participant?  Or will the silver week participant now pay twice the maintenance fee as the bronze week participant?

I recall looking into DVC at Hilton Head when I purchased Grande Ocean weeks.  The points that I would be required to buy to get a week in the summer were about $24,000 when the Grande Ocean prices were under $16,000.  And Disney was RTU and nowhere near the ocean.  I am curious what the translation for points to weeks will be at peak times at peak resorts.  All this is speculation.  But I appreciate all the thoughts and comments from everyone in advance of actual release.  It gets you prepared for all the questions that will follow.  I guess I just like to prepare for the worst but hope for the best.

Going back to Pool Bar Jim's soon.  Everything will be better then.

Bob


----------



## tlwmkw

*1250 more to go!*

This thread is catching up with the Aruba concerned owners group thread- in 1250 more posts it will be tied.  

tlwmkw


----------



## RandR

dougp26364 said:


> If Marriott forces resale prices to fall, then that would be a good thing for those, like yourself, who live to buy resale at deeply discounted pricing. You get to enjoy the week you want and pay an even smaller fraction for the privledge. So what's the worry? Last year weeks were going for thousands. In your worst case scenario, by July 1 they'll be going for hundreds. Sounds like a good deal if you buy resale to me.



But, if you want to extend Perry's conspiracy theory, Marriott is hoping to crush resale prices.  This way they can scoop up cheap, but valuable weeks with ROFR to add to their points system.


----------



## PerryM

RandR said:


> But, if you want to extend Perry's conspiracy theory, Marriott is hoping to crush resale prices.  This way they can scoop up cheap, but valuable weeks with ROFR to add to their points system.



I'm glad some of you are ready for your black helicopter visit from Marriott 

That ROFR plays a very critical part of this new system - it is the spark to ignite the fuel to make this new sales engine a winner for Marriott stockholders.


----------



## RandR

BocaBum99 said:


> Nothing you or I can do to stop the conversions to points.  Weeks will be fine for as long as owners want to stay there.  I don't care if Marriott manipulates the system.  As long as I have a loophole I can exploit now and my payback is less than 3 years, they can do anything they want.  I love the idea of Flexchange units for 10000 points on that Asia scale.  Totally worth the $1500 for that privilege. We will see what they numbers actually look like first, though.



This is could be the first "loophole" in the new system.  For people that can travel during Flexchange, right now, they can get 2 weeks by locking off their unit and trading the two parts.  In a points system, it may be possible to get several weeks since the points needed may be much lower during Flexchange.  As has been stated before....some will win and some will lose.


----------



## RandR

PerryM said:


> I'm glad some of you are ready for your black helicopter visit from Marriott
> 
> That ROFR plays a very critical part of this new system - it is the spark to ignite the fuel to make this new sales engine a winner for Marriott stockholders.



It would be interesting to see where the ROFR settles.  Hopefully they only scoop up the real cheap ones and leave a few over for the rest of us.


----------



## GregT

RandR said:


> It would be interesting to see where the ROFR settles.  Hopefully they only scoop up the real cheap ones and leave a few over for the rest of us.




My personal opinion on this is that they'll ROFR the resorts that have been sold out for awhile (like MOC) that they want to credibly use as part of their sales pitch, but will be more judicious in ROFRing the ones they were still building/selling (Ko Olina) because they have sufficient developer inventory.  Over time, they'll might expand the ROFR for the Ko Olina resales if the price is cheap enough.

I think we'll see a surge of ROFRs initially to communicate the message that Marriott is back in the ROFR business, but then they throttle back to just ROFR what they need.

I agree with Perry that ROFR is an important part of this system, or more specifically, the "threat" of ROFR.  If we bid too cheaply, the deeded week could disappear forever into the pool.


----------



## PerryM

*Bow wow ROFR ROFR...*

The ROFR changes with the new exchange system.

Before 6/15/10 Marriott would exercise the ROFR to snap up high demand weeks - ones they already had customers for - they might have exercised the ROFR at 60% of resales in order to get that hot week.

After 6/15/10 Marriott has NO incentive to snap up high demand weeks - instead they will go doggy shopping and look for the dregs of weeks - the ones that no one wants like Silver and Bronze and get them for very low rates since they won't be joining the new exchange system.

The result will be NO support at all, if there ever was one, for hot weeks.  I suspect Marriott will put on their rubber boots and go out hunting for dregs of the Marriott world.  Those weeks will probably be Point inflated and Marriott's main focus from now on.

Marriott never needs to buy a high priced week 52 at MountainSide anymore...


----------



## dougp26364

RandR said:


> But, if you want to extend Perry's conspiracy theory, Marriott is hoping to crush resale prices.  This way they can scoop up cheap, but valuable weeks with ROFR to add to their points system.



ROFR has always artificially propped up resale prices. If Marriott starts back up with ROFR, that's a good thing for those wanting to sell. All one has to do is look at recent history to see what happens to resale prices when Marriott stopped exercising ROFR.

If Marriott makes the program reasonably priced to join and, if they program is as flexible as all the other points based reservations systems I've seen, Marriott won't need to scope up anything. They'll have owners paying to join the new program. Money comes in, units come in, no money goes out to buy a thing. Seems like the simplest solution to me. Easier than the doomsday predictions of Perry and considerably cheaper to boot. 

Sorry, I'm not drinking Perry's Koolaid. In Perry's world, there's a Marriott monster hiding under every timeshare bed just waiting to devour Marriott timeshare owners. He'll be able to claim a few victory's no doubt from his many doomsday predictions but, when it comes down to the final analysis, I doubt it will be anywhere near as bad as he wants everyone to believe it's going to be. 

I think Perry's been playing with his Westgate purchase a little to much and has become paranoid at the hands of how King David of Westgateland treats his owners. He's been badly fooled once. Now he's seeing shadows and jumping at ghosts.


----------



## PerryM

*Goal.....*



dougp26364 said:


> ROFR has always artificially propped up resale prices. If Marriott starts back up with ROFR, that's a good thing for those wanting to sell. All one has to do is look at recent history to see what happens to resale prices when Marriott stopped exercising ROFR.
> 
> If Marriott makes the program reasonably priced to join and, if they program is as flexible as all the other points based reservations systems I've seen, Marriott won't need to scope up anything. They'll have owners paying to join the new program. Money comes in, units come in, no money goes out to buy a thing. Seems like the simplest solution to me. Easier than the doomsday predictions of Perry and considerably cheaper to boot.
> 
> Sorry, I'm not drinking Perry's Koolaid. In Perry's world, there's a Marriott monster hiding under every timeshare bed just waiting to devour Marriott timeshare owners. He'll be able to claim a few victory's no doubt from his many doomsday predictions but, when it comes down to the final analysis, I doubt it will be anywhere near as bad as he wants everyone to believe it's going to be.
> 
> I think Perry's been playing with his Westgate purchase a little to much and has become paranoid at the hands of how King David of Westgateland treats his owners. He's been badly fooled once. Now he's seeing shadows and jumping at ghosts.



I can always determine how effective my debating becomes with folks wanting to change the topic.

Who cares what I say in the grand scheme of things?  Marriott could care less and if I cause folks to scratch their heads and think before they panic then I've accomplished my little goal.


----------



## brigechols

dougp26364 and PerryM,

I have not been a Tugger as long as the two of you so it's hard to tell whether you are best buds or frenemies. Your back and forth banter reminds me of Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau - quite entertaining


----------



## AceValenta

I still think this is rumor mongering by sales people to scare people into purchasing weeks in a down economy. I guess, I will find out in a few days if it is fiction or non-fiction.  

I just received my MVCI Insider news letter and nothing about the points program. Googled Marriott, MVCI and Marriott Vacation Club and clicked on news, guess what nothing. 

I got a call from a sales rep and he said June 7th is now the day and it is going to be modeled after the Asian Points Program. He even mentioned TUG and how they have figured it out. Wanted me to buy a week now before it is too late!!!


This is too big of an item for everyone to be silent on the issue. 

You would think if Marriott would be coming out with this program they would be emailing all current owners about an exciting change coming to their program to build up the hype and get the quick flip. 

"Only 30 days until your ownership will give you more!"

I may be wrong here but I am still not buying it, until I see it!


----------



## taffy19

PerryM said:


> I'm glad some of you are ready for your black helicopter visit from Marriott
> 
> That ROFR plays a very critical part of this new system - it is the spark to ignite the fuel to make this new sales engine a winner for Marriott stockholders.


You are starting to worry me Perry as I just read this.  This is a very nice timeshare resort also on Maui. Is this what we can expect in the future?  I hope not.

I start to believe that the less timeshares you own, the better off you are. I am glad that we only own one Marriott and will rent from an owner if we need an extra week. That may be the smartest thing to do from here forward.


----------



## PerryM

*Exchanging the exchange company....*



iconnections said:


> You are starting to worry me Perry as I just read this.  This is a very nice timeshare resort also on Maui. Is this what we can expect in the future?  I hope not.
> 
> I start to believe that the less timeshares you own, the better off you are. I am glad that we only own one Marriott and will rent from an owner if we need an extra week. That may be the smartest thing to do from here forward.



We stayed at the Ka'anapali Beach Club for a week this past February - just as nice as the old part of the MOC;  it had a FULL kitchen in our 1-bedroom (Who cooks while in Maui?).

Folks are going to have to be fast and have cash to benefit from the tsunami that is about to turn Marriott upside down.  Prices that we have been joking about just might start to show up with Marriotts.

I'm guessing but 15 minutes after reading the new exchange system is all I need to make decisions, about events, that will present themselves minutes later.

If you thought 8:00 AM CST was nerve racking making an exchange how about exchanging exchange companies?

There's a good chance a lot of once-in-a-lifetime opportunities might pop up.  I'm going to be ready....


----------



## dougp26364

brigechols said:


> dougp26364 and PerryM,
> 
> I have not been a Tugger as long as the two of you so it's hard to tell whether you are best buds or frenemies. Your back and forth banter reminds me of Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau - quite entertaining



I like Perry. I just think we need a little balance to the chicken little routine he's doing about something he has no good intell on. It's one thing to be concerned. It's quite another to pull numbers from the air to support a theory in order to whip the masses into a frenzy. The theory of if you don't know it, make it up and make it sound horrible doesn't work so well with me. 

We all have to remember that we don't know. It's only educated guessing. Most importantly there's nothing to be worried about..........yet. Much of what we worry about either never happens or is something we have no control over. So worrying about anything is generally counter productive. Speculation is fine. Creating worry by producing statements and making them sound as if they are facts is counter productive IMHO. Perry crossed that line a long way back.


----------



## PerryM

brigechols said:


> dougp26364 and PerryM,
> 
> I have not been a Tugger as long as the two of you so it's hard to tell whether you are best buds or frenemies. Your back and forth banter reminds me of Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau - quite entertaining



I don't know a Doug, but I'm certain we would have a great time sipping Margaritas watching the sun set on the old Marriott - if he buys


----------



## dougp26364

AceValenta said:


> I still think this is rumor mongering by sales people to scare people into purchasing weeks in a down economy. I guess, I will find out in a few days if it is fiction or non-fiction.
> 
> I just received my MVCI Insider news letter and nothing about the points program. Googled Marriott, MVCI and Marriott Vacation Club and clicked on news, guess what nothing.
> 
> I got a call from a sales rep and he said June 7th is now the day and it is going to be modeled after the Asian Points Program. He even mentioned TUG and how they have figured it out. Wanted me to buy a week now before it is too late!!!
> 
> 
> This is too big of an item for everyone to be silent on the issue.
> 
> You would think if Marriott would be coming out with this program they would be emailing all current owners about an exciting change coming to their program to build up the hype and get the quick flip.
> 
> "Only 30 days until your ownership will give you more!"
> 
> I may be wrong here but I am still not buying it, until I see it!



You could be closer to reality than anyone else. Who knows, Marriott has said nothing. TUG could just be a pawn in the game of Marriott's sales force. 

The only thing is, there's been mention of this by three people who apparently have connections to Marriott. DaveM who has been decidedly silent on this thread. Fletch who was a former salesman for Marriott. From Timeshareforums Rikkis Playpen made mention of word of it from a business gathering he was at for a law firm who was assigned the task of getting the new program approved in every state in which Marrriott wants to sell (which was supposedly the big hold up).

It has the feel that something is actually up this time. On the other hand, when we were in Hilton Head a couple of weeks ago, the conceirge knew nothing about their sales offices closing down for retraining. In fact I told her I wasn't sitting through another presentation until after the new program was rolled out. Which is true even if Marriott didn't roll out a new program. I won't sit through another "owners update" until there's something I feel I need updating on. Even then I'll probably get it from TUG rather than Marriott. 

Marriott sale members are still timeshare salesmen. Most of the time they don't know their own product much better than anyone off the street and, it's pretty obvious that at least some will use anything they can as leverage to make a sale. Using the rumored new system isn't going to be beneath some of them if they think they can get away with it. Managers looking to prop up sales will look the other way if it increases the number of sales their office is making.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> We stayed at the Ka'anapali Beach Club for a week this past February - just as nice as the old part of the MOC;  it had a FULL kitchen in our 1-bedroom (Who cooks while in Maui?).
> 
> Folks are going to have to be fast and have cash to benefit from the tsunami that is about to turn Marriott upside down.  Prices that we have been joking about just might start to show up with Marriotts.
> 
> I'm guessing but 15 minutes after reading the new exchange system is all I need to make decisions, about events, that will present themselves minutes later.
> 
> If you thought 8:00 AM CST was nerve racking making an exchange how about exchanging exchange companies?
> 
> There's a good chance a lot of once-in-a-lifetime opportunities might pop up.  I'm going to be ready....



It might not take you that long to calculate the cost vs benefit to you. 

It will be interesting to see what happens to resale values if a new points ownership program is instituted. What will really be of interest to me is to see if Marriott starts in with ROFR again. Without ROFR, prices have steadily fallen. It could be debated which came first the chicken (Marriott not exercising ROFR) or the egg (new program has owners running). 

As for Kaanapali Beach Club, there are other factors to consider. Many owners at DRI resorts WANT to be in their points based system. Resale buyers have a tough time getting into that system so resale prices are low. DRI doesn't exercise ROFR. DRI also has increased MF's and enforced rules since taking over from Sunterra. Sunterra held to an unwritten rule about view and where owners should be placed. DRI went by what was in writting and it upset some of those owners. 

There is also animosity between owners at the Point of Poipu and DRI. You only have to go to the Hawaiian forums to see that issue. Mostly at issue are the MF's which went through the roof when DRI took over. 

But back to Marriott. If resales are prohibited from any new program Marriott might come out with AND (that's a big and for a reason) Marriott doesn't exercise ROFR in the future, my guess is you'll see prices fall drastically on the resale market. This is a good thing if your a buyer and it's only bad if you're wanting to sell. Essentially, it shows the true value of the timeshare. 

Now if I were wanting to add a unit for personal usage, say at the Kauai Beach Club, changes Marriott might make could be beneficial to me. I might be able to get rid of my Branson week and turn around and buy something with Marriott that we'd really like to own. It all depends on how you look at this sitution. If you're wanting to sell, then the glass probably looks half empty. If you're wanting to buy then you're cup may runneth over. If all you want to do is own and enjoy your present weeks, then it's likely you'll barely notice a ripple on the water. If you're into exchanging your weeks, better get your reading glasses on and study up on Marriott's offer.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I don't know a Doug, but I'm certain we would have a great time sipping Margaritas watching the sun set on the old Marriott - if he buys



If we're ever in Vegas on NYE, We'll wave towards your Westgate unit from Marriott's roof top bar. Or we could just find a bar and sip margarita's and debate timeshares until they close the place down.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> If we're ever in Vegas on NYE, We'll wave towards your Westgate unit from Marriott's roof top bar. Or we could just find a bar and sip margarita's and debate timeshares until they close the place down.



You'll have to wave at my renter - we will be staying at Polo Towers this NYE!


----------



## rthib

dougp26364 said:


> You could be closer to reality than anyone else. Who knows, Marriott has said nothing. TUG could just be a pawn in the game of Marriott's sales force.



Put me in the "This is nonsense" camp.

Something like this would be a big change for Marriott and would have at least some impact on their earnings.  With all the shutdowns, legal filings, re-training etc... someone would be leaking the info.  And yet from the folks I know who monitor Marriott from a financial view point - nothing.  No one there has heard of anything - and they live on rumor.

I think this is a figment of the TUG imagination.

Still this is great fun:
But my favorite part is people who are upset at Marriott for what is wrong with this program. A program that doesn't exist.


----------



## Dave M

rthib said:


> Put me in the "This is nonsense" camp.


As I stated in another thread, responding to one of your pooh-poohs of the forthcoming points / internal exchange program, the "rumors" are based in fact.

I won't repeat the rest of that post except to say that my sources within Marriott have not been wrong (other than with respect to timing) on any topic that I have posted here based on those sources over the past five years.

And as a CPA who spent 31 years working on SEC filings for public companies and what type of business change is reportable under SEC rules, I can assure you that this change won't even be a blip on the screen for Marriott in terms of how the market will view it. The financial considerations are extremely unlikely to be significant enough to warrant advance reporting.

And if you don't believe the info about the new program hasn't been leaking, you haven't been reading the many consistent reports on this forum.

It's coming. I still haven't been able to obtain the details, but it will be here soon.


----------



## GregT

Dave M said:


> And as a CPA who spent 31 years working on SEC filings for public companies and what type of business change is reportable under SEC rules, I can assure you that this change won't even be a blip on the screen for Marriott in terms of how the market will view it. The financial considerations are extremely unlikely to be significant enough to warrant advance reporting.



I second Dave's comments -- I'm also a CPA and have been the CFO of two publicly-traded companies -- this change is not material at all to Marriott's operations/financial results and I doubt there will be any specific disclosure when they do roll-out the new program (perhaps an obscure reference deep in a securities filing to a change in how they are marketing timeshares) -- it's a non-event to investors  (only a big event to us TUGgers!).

Good luck to all,

Greg


----------



## rovitm

I have only been keeping up with this topic for a couple of weeks.  Around a month ago I inquired about a EOY in Newport.  I already have a EOY resale.  My Marriott rep provided the pricing and I told him I would think about it.

I called my rep today and told him I was still thinking about it.  I asked him   should I buy now or wait two weeks until the points system comes out.  Of course he said to buy now.  By buying now I would enjoy the best of both worlds and I would be very happy.  I asked him if I do buy now will there be a fee to convert and would it be the same for my resale.  He told me he did not know how much it would cost.  I said it would be crazy to buy now not knowing the costs it may be to convert and not really knowing how I would benefit from it.  He did tell me that I will not be obligated to convert the resale week and had nothing else really to say.  





Dave M said:


> As I stated in another thread, responding to one of your pooh-poohs of the forthcoming points / internal exchange program, the "rumors" are based in fact.
> 
> I won't repeat the rest of that post except to say that my sources within Marriott have not been wrong (other than with respect to timing) on any topic that I have posted here based on those sources over the past five years.
> 
> And as a CPA who spent 31 years working on SEC filings for public companies and what type of business change is reportable under SEC rules, I can assure you that this change won't even be a blip on the screen for Marriott in terms of how the market will view it. The financial considerations are extremely unlikely to be significant enough to warrant advance reporting.
> 
> And if you don't believe the info about the new program hasn't been leaking, you haven't been reading the many consistent reports on this forum.
> 
> It's coming. I still haven't been able to obtain the details, but it will be here soon.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> Timeshare developers have always had a hard time dealing with resales - because what they sell is a resale!  There is no such timeshare as "Brand spanking new" - they sell units that are well worn just like you and I.
> 
> Hence there is this developer mentality of "Us versus 400,000 owners" which can only take place when what they sell is so full of pork that there is a difference to begin with.
> 
> Marriott had a very benign difference, as a developer, the MRP.  Starting about 4 years ago Marriott seems to have decided that it wasn't enough to take on 400,000 owners.  The new internal exchange system is years and years of pent up rage directed at you and I, the loyal owner.
> 
> Make no mistake about it, the new internal exchange system is a weapon of mass revenge against the 400,000 owners for all those lost sales over the years...


Perry, I don't understand why you own with Marriott or even why you are involved in timesharing.  In many ways owning a timeshare is a gamble that the resort/developer will at least hold some type of usage value and quality and on their management of the resorts in question.  I can certainly tell you that if I was that distrustful of Marriott, I would not own with them, period.  To me there are 2 clear components here, one of sales and one of the resort management itself.  They are about as unrelated as they can possibly be.  I think for one to participate in timeshares and not go crazy, you've got to separate them out in your own mind, some might say you have to rationalize certain portions.  

I don't believe for a second that this is a vendetta against the owners, however, in the process of positioning and selling a new product it's likely some will lose out.  Can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs so to speak.  



m61376 said:


> I am a bit confused as to how lower value weeks will potentially be better off. I understand the concept of combining points, but I'm not so sure people will be thrilled about paying several years of MF's for a single week, versus the uptrading that many have managed to achieve through II.
> 
> This outlook is a complete 180 from what Fletch had posted way back- that lower season owners would be less likely to join.


To be more clear, I've more specifically stated that I think Gold and possibly Silver at the more in demand resorts, and platinum, at the trading type resorts are likely to be the best values to upgrade.  However, I believe it's very possible that the bronze owners will get a better "value" in upgrading than will those with high demand weeks.  It's simply due to the relative value of those units as is compared to the relative value if brought inside a points system, NOT the absolute value of each in terms of points.  

For sake of discussion I pulled out a sales sheet on Ocean Watch dated 2003.  The prices range from $7200 Bronze GV to 33,900 Platinum Plus OF.  Currently those Bronze owners are paying X in yearly fees, the same as the Plat Plus owners, but they have a lot less options in many ways as well as a lot less value (and cost up front).  I don't think it's feasible for the points for Bronze to be 1/5 of the Plat Plus so lets assume that a week Bronze costs 25K points and a Plat Plus 75K and that the fees remain the same and that there is a one year banking and borrowing as well as a short notice, cheap option.  The Bronze owner could then have the ability to trade up to a higher season but less often, something they really can't do now.  You and I both know it'll cost them 3 times as much to do so based on fees alone but at least they'll have options.  Worst case scenario is they pay an upgrade fee and use it for the Bronze full week and have the same fees as now plus a club fee.  

Obviously specifics will rule but I can far more easily see converting my 4 play weeks than my 5 HH summer weeks.



PerryM said:


> *For a Marriott bought week:*
> $400 to convert now
> $1,500 lost on resale
> -----------
> $1,900 net cost per week to join
> 
> 
> *For a resale Marriott bought week:*
> $1,500 to convert now
> $1,500 lost on resale
> -------------
> $3,000 net cost per week to join
> 
> *For a Marriott owner who decides not to join:*
> $1,500 lost on resale per week
> 
> 
> 
> If the average Marriott owner has 2 weeks this new exchange scheme will cost EACH Marriott owner:
> 
> 
> *Marriott bought 2 weeks and joins - $3,800*
> *Resale bought 2 weeks and joins - $6,000*
> *Marriott owner who does not convert 2 weeks - $3,000*
> 
> All because Marriott wants to chuck selling timeshare weeks and get into the Point exchange club business.
> 
> Thanks a lot Marriott.....


Perry, even with your assumptions, you can only lose if you actually sell.



PerryM said:


> *For a Marriott bought week:*
> $400 to convert now
> $1,500 lost on resale
> -----------
> $1,900 net cost per week to join
> 
> 
> *For a resale Marriott bought week:*
> $1,500 to convert now
> $1,500 lost on resale
> -------------
> $3,000 net cost per week to join
> 
> *For a Marriott owner who decides not to join:*
> $1,500 lost on resale per week
> 
> 
> 
> If the average Marriott owner has 2 weeks this new exchange scheme will cost EACH Marriott owner:
> 
> 
> *Marriott bought 2 weeks and joins - $3,800*
> *Resale bought 2 weeks and joins - $6,000*
> *Marriott owner who does not convert 2 weeks - $3,000*
> 
> All because Marriott wants to chuck selling timeshare weeks and get into the Point exchange club business.
> 
> Thanks a lot Marriott.....


Hundreds of resorts do that every day.  How many places do you know charging thousands of dollars, and making sales, for something you can buy pennies on the dollar right now.  Timeshares are like new cars only 10-100 times worse.  IMO, it's not dishonest to say here's the costs and the benefits and ignore the fact you can save big buying resale.  I know of very few instances (but a few) where a timeshare salesperson told the client about resale.


----------



## RandR

Dave M said:


> As I stated in another thread, responding to one of your pooh-poohs of the forthcoming points / internal exchange program, the "rumors" are based in fact.
> 
> I won't repeat the rest of that post except to say that my sources within Marriott have not been wrong (other than with respect to timing) on any topic that I have posted here based on those sources over the past five years.
> 
> And as a CPA who spent 31 years working on SEC filings for public companies and what type of business change is reportable under SEC rules, I can assure you that this change won't even be a blip on the screen for Marriott in terms of how the market will view it. The financial considerations are extremely unlikely to be significant enough to warrant advance reporting.
> 
> And if you don't believe the info about the new program hasn't been leaking, you haven't been reading the many consistent reports on this forum.
> 
> It's coming. I still haven't been able to obtain the details, but it will be here soon.



Dave, I understand what you are saying.  But since it appears to be something that is so inconsequential to their earnings, what's the sense of making the change?


----------



## Dave M

Not counting 2009's economy-affected drop in earnings, a normal year for Marriott should be over $500,000,000 in net income. Thus, adding a few more million $ (or whatever it might be) with the new program would certainly add to the bottom line, but not enough so to warrant any advance SEC-required  disclosure.


----------



## JimC

RandR said:


> Dave, I understand what you are saying.  But since it appears to be something that is so inconsequential to their earnings, what's the sense of making the change?



Because it is not inconsequential to the business unit.


----------



## Cindala

Dean said:


> For sake of discussion I pulled out a sales sheet on Ocean Watch dated 2003.  The prices range from $7200 Bronze GV to 33,900 Platinum Plus OF.  Currently those Bronze owners are paying X in yearly fees, the same as the Plat Plus owners, but they have a lot less options in many ways as well as a lot less value (and cost up front).  I don't think it's feasible for the points for Bronze to be 1/5 of the Plat Plus so lets assume that a week Bronze costs 25K points and a Plat Plus 75K and that the fees remain the same and that there is a one year banking and borrowing as well as a short notice, cheap option.  The Bronze owner could then have the ability to trade up to a higher season but less often, something they really can't do now.  You and I both know it'll cost them 3 times as much to do so based on fees alone but at least they'll have options.  Worst case scenario is they pay an upgrade fee and use it for the Bronze full week and have the same fees as now plus a club fee.



Spoken like a true Marriott Salesman.


----------



## Dean

Cindala said:


> Spoken like a true Marriott Salesman.


Not me, I'm too honest and I WOULD be telling them about resale.  Just an example of how it might be a good option to convert if you owned lower seasons.


----------



## jlf58

The EOY is not part of the new system so it doesn't matter either way. Anyone who owns an EOY, will NOT have an option to join, period 



rovitm said:


> I have only been keeping up with this topic for a couple of weeks.  Around a month ago I inquired about a EOY in Newport.  I already have a EOY resale.  My Marriott rep provided the pricing and I told him I would think about it.
> 
> I called my rep today and told him I was still thinking about it.  I asked him   should I buy now or wait two weeks until the points system comes out.  Of course he said to buy now.  By buying now I would enjoy the best of both worlds and I would be very happy.  I asked him if I do buy now will there be a fee to convert and would it be the same for my resale.  He told me he did not know how much it would cost.  I said it would be crazy to buy now not knowing the costs it may be to convert and not really knowing how I would benefit from it.  He did tell me that I will not be obligated to convert the resale week and had nothing else really to say.


----------



## DanCali

Dean said:


> Perry, even with your assumptions, you can only lose if you actually sell.



Huh? If you think a paper loss isn't a real loss you should read this...

Make no mistake and do not kid yourselves - if resale prices go down starting this month this is a real loss for all Marriott owners.


----------



## PerryM

Dean said:


> Perry, I don't understand why you own with Marriott or even why you are involved in timesharing.  In many ways owning a timeshare is a gamble that the resort/developer will at least hold some type of usage value and quality and on their management of the resorts in question.
> .......
> 
> Perry, even with your assumptions, you can only lose if you actually sell.
> 
> Hundreds of resorts do that every day.  How many places do you know charging thousands of dollars, and making sales, for something you can buy pennies on the dollar right now.  Timeshares are like new cars only 10-100 times worse.  IMO, it's not dishonest to say here's the costs and the benefits and ignore the fact you can save big buying resale.  I know of very few instances (but a few) where a timeshare salesperson told the client about resale.



Let me recap what Marriott is about to do to me:

I bought a Gold Summit Watch about 5 years ago resale for $5,500.  Since then I've played by the 15 year old rules and have exchanged the Gold for Platinum every year and have stayed holidays in Maui and in Park City.  I'm a happy Marriott owner and II fan.

Summit Watch is a mature Marriott and sold out 10 years ago.  Since then Marriott cleans the toilets and does a great job of it.  I'm happy to have Marriott do that.  SW owners exchange reservations among themselves and other Marriott owners - life is good.

Now Marriott decides it wants to squeeze more money out of me and turn my fellow SW owners against each other and wipe out the benefits we quietly enjoyed by introducing a new exchange system and possibly an entirely different way of selling timeshares.

Marriott is impacting me negatively and I don't like it.  I'm not saying they are doing anything illegal or immoral just legally screwing me royally.

And the net result to me is what?  Lower resale values, little chance of doing what I did before, costing me and my fellow SW owners big bucks to join.  All to do what is already being done with II right now.  I don't believe Marriott will do a better job of exchanging reservations than II, just cost ten times as much.

I take this as a hostile attack on the status quo at Summit Watch.  Companies do hostile attacks on other companies all the time - that's business.  Marriott just decided that it would do the same thing to its customers.

Others believe this is good for us - only time will tell.


----------



## GregT

RandR said:


> Dave, I understand what you are saying.  But since it appears to be something that is so inconsequential to their earnings, what's the sense of making the change?



I think this is a brilliant (self-interested) move by Marriott -- even though it is not a material part to their business.  Historically, they've purchased land, sat on it for years, and then developed timeshares that they've sold for incredible amounts of money.  This has been very lucrative, but now, in a different economy, they can no longer rely on this source of [volatile] revenue.

So, convert to a point system, and you will have many owners that will pay an annual fee of [$XX] per year, and [$XX] for an internal trade.  This is a stable, recurring cash flow that you can model.  You still make money on the sale of points, plus you can repurchase the existing network, and resell it at the higher points value *without *incurring the development cost/risk.

Truly, a brilliant move by Marriott.   Unlike my good friend Perry, from whom I've learned alot, I believe Marriott will introduce a flexible system that leverages their existing network of timeshares/hotels and make the existing owners fair offers to join the system -- and how tantalizing for us that we no longer have to submit to blind trades thru II, but instead can look at a system that tells us what is available and gives us the power to immediately secure it -- for a reasonable fee.

I remain cautiously optimistic that this will be system that is very interesting -- and I am highly confident that TUG will find the loopholes that allow us to maximize the opportunities presented.

We should be focused on which are the Platinum Weeks that will be highly prized (pointed) in the Marriott system but that have reasonable MFs? In the (reviled) Wyndham system, one of the best properties is Wyndham Smoky Mountains (which I own) -- it has the lowest MFs in the system, and points are points.  I don't really care about the home resort advantage at Smoky Mtns, I bought it because I want to go to Elysian Beach Resort.

So what's the Marriott parallel to Smoky Mountains (if points are points, and Home Resort Advantage doesn't matter).

Hilton Head?  Lots of timeshares.  Palm Desert?  Too many units.  Orlando?  Never mind.  Hawaii?  Mfs hurt.

Newport Coast Villas??????????????????????????????

Best to all,

Greg


----------



## dougp26364

RandR said:


> But, if you want to extend Perry's conspiracy theory, Marriott is hoping to crush resale prices.  This way they can scoop up cheap, but valuable weeks with ROFR to add to their points system.



But when ROFR starts being used again, people who want the Marriott week will increase the bidding to overcome ROFR, much like they have in the past. ROFR only serves to artifically inflate resale pricing. In order for Marriott to scope up timeshares cheaply, they would need to do so under the radar as a competing bidder/buyer.


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> The EOY is not part of the new system so it doesn't matter either way. Anyone who owns an EOY, will NOT have an option to join, period



Maybe that's true but I sort of doubt it. If this is a trust based program, it would be relatively easy to convert the EOY week to trust based points at 50% of the EY units value, then just make the lower point total every year points. One would then have to borrow/save points to achieve EOY usage. It really doesn't seem to be a difficult step IMHO.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> Huh? If you think a paper loss isn't a real loss you should read this...
> 
> Make no mistake and do not kid yourselves - if resale prices go down starting this month this is a real loss for all Marriott owners.



Not for me. Like a stock value that goes down you only lose if you sell. I'm not selling at this moment so there is no monetary loss. So long as I can use my ownership for it's intended purpose, vacations, I'm still 100% whole.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Let me recap what Marriott is about to do to me:
> 
> I bought a Gold Summit Watch about 5 years ago resale for $5,500.  Since then I've played by the 15 year old rules and have exchanged the Gold for Platinum every year and have stayed holidays in Maui and in Park City.  I'm a happy Marriott owner and II fan.
> 
> Summit Watch is a mature Marriott and sold out 10 years ago.  Since then Marriott cleans the toilets and does a great job of it.  I'm happy to have Marriott do that.  SW owners exchange reservations among themselves and other Marriott owners - life is good.
> 
> Now Marriott decides it wants to squeeze more money out of me and turn my fellow SW owners against each other and wipe out the benefits we quietly enjoyed by introducing a new exchange system and possibly an entirely different way of selling timeshares.
> 
> Marriott is impacting me negatively and I don't like it.  I'm not saying they are doing anything illegal or immoral just legally screwing me royally.
> 
> And the net result to me is what?  Lower resale values, little chance of doing what I did before, costing me and my fellow SW owners big bucks to join.  All to do what is already being done with II right now.  I don't believe Marriott will do a better job of exchanging reservations than II, just cost ten times as much.
> 
> I take this as a hostile attack on the status quo at Summit Watch.  Companies do hostile attacks on other companies all the time - that's business.  Marriott just decided that it would do the same thing to its customers.
> 
> Others believe this is good for us - only time will tell.



You're making assumptions that, IMHO aren't going to materialize.

I own with DRI. DRI has three types of owners. Deeded week owners, deeded week owners who converted their weeks to points and trust based owners who don't have a deed. Deeded week owners still exchange via Interval and get good trades (I can still search my deeded Vegas weeks with Interval and there's not change in value). Points and trust based owners can use the internal exchange system or stay at their home resort. No one has lost value as far as being able to stay at their home resort or exchange in the same manner they did when they purchased. 

I had my doubts about a system with THREE types of owners (Marriott is only looking at two types) but, it works and it works very well. From my personal experience, you're worried about nothing. You'll STILL be able to make the exhanges you've made in the past if you stand pat. You might be able to make better exchanges for less money if you move to the new system. You can only lose money in the resale market if you sell your timeshare.


----------



## dougp26364

GregT said:


> I think this is a brilliant (self-interested) move by Marriott -- even though it is not a material part to their business.  Historically, they've purchased land, sat on it for years, and then developed timeshares that they've sold for incredible amounts of money.  This has been very lucrative, but now, in a different economy, they can no longer rely on this source of [volatile] revenue.
> 
> So, convert to a point system, and you will have many owners that will pay an annual fee of [$XX] per year, and [$XX] for an internal trade.  This is a stable, recurring cash flow that you can model.  You still make money on the sale of points, plus you can repurchase the existing network, and resell it at the higher points value *without *incurring the development cost/risk.
> 
> Truly, a brilliant move by Marriott.   Unlike my good friend Perry, from whom I've learned alot, I believe Marriott will introduce a flexible system that leverages their existing network of timeshares/hotels and make the existing owners fair offers to join the system -- and how tantalizing for us that we no longer have to submit to blind trades thru II, but instead can look at a system that tells us what is available and gives us the power to immediately secure it -- for a reasonable fee.
> 
> I remain cautiously optimistic that this will be system that is very interesting -- and I am highly confident that TUG will find the loopholes that allow us to maximize the opportunities presented.
> 
> We should be focused on which are the Platinum Weeks that will be highly prized (pointed) in the Marriott system but that have reasonable MFs? In the (reviled) Wyndham system, one of the best properties is Wyndham Smoky Mountains (which I own) -- it has the lowest MFs in the system, and points are points.  I don't really care about the home resort advantage at Smoky Mtns, I bought it because I want to go to Elysian Beach Resort.
> 
> So what's the Marriott parallel to Smoky Mountains (if points are points, and Home Resort Advantage doesn't matter).
> 
> Hilton Head?  Lots of timeshares.  Palm Desert?  Too many units.  Orlando?  Never mind.  Hawaii?  Mfs hurt.
> 
> Newport Coast Villas??????????????????????????????
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg



I'm thinking Manor Club or maybe Willow Ridge in Branson might be the equivilent


----------



## PerryM

*Marriott's #1 competitor - me...*



dougp26364 said:


> *You're making assumptions that, IMHO aren't going to materialize.*
> 
> I own with DRI. DRI has three types of owners. Deeded week owners, deeded week owners who converted their weeks to points and trust based owners who don't have a deed. Deeded week owners still exchange via Interval and get good trades (I can still search my deeded Vegas weeks with Interval and there's not change in value). Points and trust based owners can use the internal exchange system or stay at their home resort. No one has lost value as far as being able to stay at their home resort or exchange in the same manner they did when they purchased.
> 
> I had my doubts about a system with THREE types of owners (Marriott is only looking at two types) but, it works and it works very well. From my personal experience, you're worried about nothing. You'll STILL be able to make the exhanges you've made in the past if you stand pat. You might be able to make better exchanges for less money if you move to the new system. You can only lose money in the resale market if you sell your timeshare.



Good grief, we're talking about a timeshare developer who distorts, misinforms, and misleads Ma and Pa off the street with a product they can't afford and sticks them with 14.99% financing for 10 years and then hits them with $1,000 in MFs each year.  Once Ma and Pa buy then besmirch their very ownership in the resale market.

I believe I am justified in believing that Marriott will look out for their stockholders and could care less about their #1 competitor - me, the Marriott owner.

I'm not sure where the kinder, gentler Marriott rumor evolved; certainly not from me....


----------



## billymach4

Fletch said:


> The EOY is not part of the new system so it doesn't matter either way. Anyone who owns an EOY, will NOT have an option to join, period




If this is indeed the case then EOY weeks might become somewhat of a hot commodity? 

Marriott will make them untouchable. Thats a good thing. Life goes on as normal.

What do you think?


----------



## DanCali

billymach4 said:


> If this is indeed the case then EOY weeks might become somewhat of a hot commodity?
> 
> Marriott will make them untouchable. Thats a good thing. Life goes on as normal.
> 
> What do you think?



If the argument for lower resale values is that buyers want to join but want the seller to pay the fee, then if buyers truly want to join there will be less demand for weeks that can't join... You can also argue it in a different way - EOY weeks would have fewer exchange opportunities, since they cannot join the points system, making them less valuable. And with more weeks in a points system and fewer weeks in II, life will not go on as normal for both EY and EOY weeks owners...


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Good grief, we're talking about a timeshare developer who distorts, misinforms, and misleads Ma and Pa off the street with a product they can't afford and sticks them with 14.99% financing for 10 years and then hits them with $1,000 in MFs each year.  Once Ma and Pa buy then besmirch their very ownership in the resale market.
> 
> I believe I am justified in believing that Marriott will look out for their stockholders and could care less about their #1 competitor - me, the Marriott owner.
> 
> I'm not sure where the kinder, gentler Marriott rumor evolved; certainly not from me....



I didn't say they were a kinder/gentler timeshare developer. I just said it's not going to be as bad as you fear. Depsite spliting the inventory into points and deeds, you'll still be able to get your exchanges just like you've done before. DRI has three different types of owners and all can exchange relatively easily. I see no difference in my deeded weeks exchange power after being introduced into the points system than before a points based system was ever a thought. You'll still be able to get those weeks exchanges you're use to getting. You'll still be able to trade that gold week into holiday weeks. You're worrying about nothing IMHO.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> If the argument for lower resale values is that buyers want to join but want the seller to pay the fee, then if buyers truly want to join there will be less demand for weeks that can't join... You can also argue it in a different way - EOY weeks would have fewer exchange opportunities, since they cannot join the points system, making them less valuable. And with more weeks in a points system and fewer weeks in II, life will not go on as normal for both EY and EOY weeks owners...



One more time. I own in a system that has THREE classifications of owners. My deeded weeks trade just as well as they did before the points based systems were available. It's not that big of a deal and we're chasing shadows here. 

My MGC week is actually two EOY weeks. If I can't join the points based program because they won't let EOY weeks join, I'm not sweating it. I'll just continue on as I have in the past. 

Honestly, it's not going to be that big of a deal. I've been working withing DRI's system of deeded weeks, deeded points and trust based ownership for a little over two years and it's six one way, half a dozen the other. I prefer the points based internal system because it's been a money saver but, if I'm locked out any new points based system Marriott comes out with, big deal. I'll continue to exchange just the same way I've always exchanged.

I hope they come out and announce whatever they're going to do soon. This speculation is really getting kind of wild IMO.


----------



## Dean

DanCali said:


> Huh? If you think a paper loss isn't a real loss you should read this...
> 
> Make no mistake and do not kid yourselves - if resale prices go down starting this month this is a real loss for all Marriott owners.


We'll have to disagree on the issue that a paper loss has meaning with timeshares.  Plus as I said before, I do not believe Marriott has a responsibility to your or my resale value.



PerryM said:


> Let me recap what Marriott is about to do to me:
> 
> I bought a Gold Summit Watch about 5 years ago resale for $5,500.  Since then I've played by the 15 year old rules and have exchanged the Gold for Platinum every year and have stayed holidays in Maui and in Park City.  I'm a happy Marriott owner and II fan.
> 
> Summit Watch is a mature Marriott and sold out 10 years ago.  Since then Marriott cleans the toilets and does a great job of it.  I'm happy to have Marriott do that.  SW owners exchange reservations among themselves and other Marriott owners - life is good.
> 
> Now Marriott decides it wants to squeeze more money out of me and turn my fellow SW owners against each other and wipe out the benefits we quietly enjoyed by introducing a new exchange system and possibly an entirely different way of selling timeshares.
> 
> Marriott is impacting me negatively and I don't like it.  I'm not saying they are doing anything illegal or immoral just legally screwing me royally.
> 
> And the net result to me is what?  Lower resale values, little chance of doing what I did before, costing me and my fellow SW owners big bucks to join.  All to do what is already being done with II right now.  I don't believe Marriott will do a better job of exchanging reservations than II, just cost ten times as much.
> 
> I take this as a hostile attack on the status quo at Summit Watch.  Companies do hostile attacks on other companies all the time - that's business.  Marriott just decided that it would do the same thing to its customers.
> 
> Others believe this is good for us - only time will tell.


Perry I know I'm not going to change your mind.  IMO, even in the worst case scenario, you would not lose anything that you actually were sold.  You were not sold the ability to exchange through II and certainly not the ability to have an internal trading preference.  That you were able to do that for a few years is just gravy, IMO.  And while I do expect some of those options to go away eventually (internal trading preference, less inventory to II), most of them likely will not.  As to what you paid, what's it worth right now? $500-1000 maybe.  You said yourself you're assuming the worst, IMO, you're assuming far worse than the worst this could turn out.  We'll see if and what happens with this.  



> So what's the Marriott parallel to Smoky Mountains (if points are points, and Home Resort Advantage doesn't matter).
> 
> Hilton Head? Lots of timeshares. Palm Desert? Too many units. Orlando? Never mind. Hawaii? Mfs hurt.


Depends on how it's set up.  If you pay fees based on the underlying resort and the points are set up as I envision they might be and reflective more of buy in price but not as skewed, I'd agree with Platinum at Branson, Orlando, Manor Club and similar. If they are mored skewed more in line with actual demand, places like HH and MB might come out better.  I'd look at it like I do RCI points now, how many points do I get for each dollar of fees compared to what is the buy in price.


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning...

Fletch this one is for you...

Please explain to me the logic of MVCI excluding EOY's from the "points-internal exchange" option.  It seems to me that the more inventory in the "points" program the more appealing the program will be to both owners/converters AND new purchasers...  My simple mind cannot come up with any possible motive/profit by this exclusion!!!


----------



## m61376

Fletch said:


> The EOY is not part of the new system so it doesn't matter either way. Anyone who owns an EOY, will NOT have an option to join, period



wow- that would be surprising- Marriott in essence telling even developer bought purchasers that they're not wanted. All those people who paid a premium to buy an EOY week, or bought 2 EOY weeks to different destinations, or believed the salesperson who told them buy an EOY now and take a year to decide whether to buy another one (but still ended up with 2 EOY units).


----------



## PerryM

*The Godfather...*

Scene opens with the theme from "The Godfather" playing:

-Knock on Front Door of Nephew's home -

Godfather's Nephew:
"Godfather, Godfather I haven't seen you for 10 years - it's good to see you"

Godfather:
"You're my favorite nephew and I'm here to make you an offer you can't refuse"

Nephew:
"But Godfather, I paid off your loanshark's 14.99% loan after 10 years and am free and clear now"

- Camera Focuses in on Godfather's Marlon Brando like face -

Godfather:
"Yea, that's the problem kid - I need more than $1,000 a year from you"

Nephew:
"What do I get from you and how much will it cost my family?"

Godfather:
"I'm gonna let you stay in your used house for $1,500 and $99 extra a year"

Nephew:
"But what kind of deal is that?"

Godfather:
"It's protection money kid - I'll make sure nobody takes over your house while you're on vacation at the Jersey Shore at your timeshare".

Nephew:
"Thanks Godfather, you're my favorite Godfather and here's the deed to my house - you do what's best for me"

Godfather:
"Hey, I'm always look'n out for my favorite nephew."

- Scene ends with nephew's family eating spaghetti around the dinner table -

Nephew:
"Thanks to Godfather's generosity we have to decide - do we not pay the mortgage payment, car payment, and health-care payment, or eat dog food this month?"

- Scene fades to black as little Tony, the Nephew's son, getting out the can opener -


----------



## jlf58

Doug,

The reason that thier EOY weeks are cheap is they have come out and said they dont convert in the new system so anyone with EOY's is SOL.
I know what you are saying but this is what MVCI has said ! 



dougp26364 said:


> Maybe that's true but I sort of doubt it. If this is a trust based program, it would be relatively easy to convert the EOY week to trust based points at 50% of the EY units value, then just make the lower point total every year points. One would then have to borrow/save points to achieve EOY usage. It really doesn't seem to be a difficult step IMHO.


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> Doug,
> 
> The reason that thier EOY weeks are cheap is they have come out and said they dont convert in the new system so anyone with EOY's is SOL.
> I know what you are saying but this is what MVCI has said !



Then it makes my decision easier. Ocean Pointe is a week we use rather than trade. Grand Chateau is the combination of two EOY weeks and we have traded it the last two years. Looks like I might not have to be concerned about the new system after all. I would have considered putting out Ocean Pointe week in only because I was figuring on putting the Vegas weeks in but, if the Vegas weeks don't go, neither will the Ocean Pointe week. 

Since Marriott sold a good number of EOY weeks, this will make a number of owners angry. It will also remove one base of weeks from their new system. My guess would be there aren't enough EOY weeks to really make a difference to Marriott.

Of course, the EOY weeks didn't seem cheap to me when we bought them. We paid 60% of the EY week's price for the first week with the option to buy the corresponding week at 50% of the EY week price should we decide to "upgrade" to EY usage. Of course, rather than have one deed we ended up with two EOY deeds. I never saw that as "cheap" when I made my purchase. I suppose Marriott see's them as cheap because they only view them as half sales. I was once told by a saleman at Ocean Pointe that the only reason people buy Silver season weeks is because they can't afford Platinum season. This was before he realized we were silver season owners at Ocean Pointe. It taught me how some of the Marriott sale staff viewed their customers.


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> Fletch this one is for you...
> 
> Please explain to me the logic of MVCI excluding EOY's from the "points-internal exchange" option.  It seems to me that the more inventory in the "points" program the more appealing the program will be to both owners/converters AND new purchasers...  My simple mind cannot come up with any possible motive/profit by this exclusion!!!





m61376 said:


> wow- that would be surprising- Marriott in essence telling even developer bought purchasers that they're not wanted. All those people who paid a premium to buy an EOY week, or bought 2 EOY weeks to different destinations, or believed the salesperson who told them buy an EOY now and take a year to decide whether to buy another one (but still ended up with 2 EOY units).



Keep in mind that while Fletch has been much closer to the source than any of us, he's no longer with Marriott and, he's going by the scuttlebut from the salesfloor. I have less reason to doubt him and more reason to believe him but, until I see it from Marriott, then nothing is final. There are very few people who know the details of what's going to be offered. No matter which way Marriott rolls with this, I'm still happy with the resorts we purchased and, I still know how to exchange via I.I.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Then it makes my decision easier. Ocean Pointe is a week we use rather than trade. Grand Chateau is the combination of two EOY weeks and we have traded it the last two years. Looks like I might not have to be concerned about the new system after all. I would have considered putting out Ocean Pointe week in only because I was figuring on putting the Vegas weeks in but, if the Vegas weeks don't go, neither will the Ocean Pointe week.
> 
> Since Marriott sold a good number of EOY weeks, this will make a number of owners angry. It will also remove one base of weeks from their new system. My guess would be there aren't enough EOY weeks to really make a difference to Marriott.
> 
> *Of course, the EOY weeks didn't seem cheap to me when we bought them. We paid 60% of the EY week's price for the first week with the option to buy the corresponding week at 50% of the EY week price should we decide to "upgrade" to EY usage. Of course, rather than have one deed we ended up with two EOY deeds. I never saw that as "cheap" when I made my purchase. I suppose Marriott see's them as cheap because they only view them as half sales. I was once told by a saleman at Ocean Pointe that the only reason people buy Silver season weeks is because they can't afford Platinum season. This was before he realized we were silver season owners at Ocean Pointe. It taught me how some of the Marriott sale staff viewed their customers.*




Sounds like the Godfather is going to make you an offer you can't refuse either.

Just a WAG on my part....


----------



## puckmanfl

Perry, Doug, Fletch,Dean, Jon Boca , SueDon or any other TUGGER out there

I am still waiting for someone to explain why it would make any sense to exclude EOY's.  Just when I am coming down from my "Perrymeter" and seeing some hope for this.  I get to the part where it may be "moot" and 1/2 of my ownership won't even hear from the "GODFATHER"

I am new to this, just need to understand any gains that could come to the "mother" company by this exclusion.  My logic states , that if they are going to risk alienating a portion of the owner base, it must come with some $$$ reason...

please help...


----------



## GregT

Fletch said:


> The reason that thier EOY weeks are cheap is they have come out and said they dont convert in the new system so anyone with EOY's is SOL.
> I know what you are saying but this is what MVCI has said !



This is interesting -- I have been thinking that the reason EOY weeks are cheap is because this is Marriott's last opportunity to sell a specific deed.

IE if they have 100 2BR EOY Ocean View Ko Olina in inventory on May 1, 2010, and they know that on June 16, 2010 they'll stop selling KOL inventory, why not blow out that inventory?

It doesn't really matter to a points system if they have 10 2BR's in inventory on 6/16/2010 or if they have 50 2BR's -- they'll still price the points the same and still use the same sales pitch.  So get what money you can for those remaining 2BR's in May and June while the deed still has individually sale-able value.  

If the final system does in fact exclude EOY weeks from participating, I think Marriott made a very serious miscalculation in having such a high profile EOY sale and then preventing a class of owners from participating.

When we do a financing in the world of private companies, we do something called a Rights Offering, meaning that every individual stockholder (subject to investment accreditation) has the opportunity to invest so that the Company can't be criticized of favoritism/preferential dealing with certain stockholders.    To not do a Rights Offering increases the Company's legal risk.

Now, Marriott doesn't have to make this new program available to everybody (like in a Rights Offering), but they would certainly have increased their legal risk by not doing so, *especially *if they just had a high profile promotion selling EOYs.  I would expect that Marriott legal would require a specific disclosure signed by new purchasers that EOY weeks would not participate in a new program (if any), but we would have heard that by now on TUG?

This is indeed puzzling. With apologies, Fletch, I expect EOY weeks will be included. We will see what happens!

Greg


----------



## Asia2000

*Direct Quotes From MVCI Sales Rep*

These statements were made to me around April 20th of this year.  

"Yes it is correct that we will be rolling out the points to the USA this year and June has been the proposed date."

Here I had asked about the future and not being able to trade into newer, more desirable resorts.

"Also remember one of the benefits of becoming a member is that collectively amongst members you pay your annual club dues which maintain our resorts to a high standard. Also around about 50% of our business comes from our member referral program! We rely on you as members and we don’t want to upset you and feel like you are being squeezed out! This is not the Marriott Way! I don’t believe this would be very good business practice!"

If they are going to be like the Godfather, MAR (stock symbol for Marriott) will be taking a dip.


----------



## rovitm

GregT said:


> This is interesting -- I have been thinking that the reason EOY weeks are cheap is because this is Marriott's last opportunity to sell a specific deed.
> 
> IE if they have 100 2BR EOY Ocean View Ko Olina in inventory on May 1, 2010, and they know that on June 16, 2010 they'll stop selling KOL inventory, why not blow out that inventory?
> 
> It doesn't really matter to a points system if they have 10 2BR's in inventory on 6/16/2010 or if they have 50 2BR's -- they'll still price the points the same and still use the same sales pitch.  So get what money you can for those remaining 2BR's in May and June while the deed still has individually sale-able value.
> 
> If the final system does in fact exclude EOY weeks from participating, I think Marriott made a very serious miscalculation in having such a high profile EOY sale and then preventing a class of owners from participating.
> 
> When we do a financing in the world of private companies, we do something called a Rights Offering, meaning that every individual stockholder (subject to investment accreditation) has the opportunity to invest so that the Company can't be criticized of favoritism/preferential dealing with certain stockholders.    To not do a Rights Offering increases the Company's legal risk.
> 
> Now, Marriott doesn't have to make this new program available to everybody (like in a Rights Offering), but they would certainly have increased their legal risk by not doing so, *especially *if they just had a high profile promotion selling EOYs.  I would expect that Marriott legal would require a specific disclosure signed by new purchasers that EOY weeks would not participate in a new program (if any), but we would have heard that by now on TUG?
> 
> This is indeed puzzling. With apologies, Fletch, I expect EOY weeks will be included. We will see what happens!
> 
> Greg




Greg,

Very good point.  I have asked this question today in an email to my rep.  Why purchase a EOY if I can't particpate in the new program.  Also, shouldn't there be a diclsosure informing me of this.  It would be misrepresentation if you tell me during the sale that I will have all the benefits of the program but then less then two weeks later I learn that I don't.


----------



## GaryDZ

I am new to this great community of Marriott owners. I own a 1 bedroom at the Aruba Ocean Club and am considering buying an additional 2 bedroom (both Platinum). I am a bit shell shocked after reading this thread. Should I hold off my purchasing decision until this works itself out?


----------



## brigechols

GaryDZ said:


> I am new to this great community of Marriott owners. I own a 1 bedroom at the Aruba Ocean Club and am considering buying an additional 2 bedroom (both Platinum). I am a bit shell shocked after reading this thread. Should I hold off my purchasing decision until this works itself out?



Welcome to Tug  

IMHO, if you found a great deal on the 2 bedroom platinum and plan to primarily stay at Ocean Club and not exchange the unit,  go for it. If you found an okay deal and are sitting on the fence, then wait it out.


----------



## DanCali

GaryDZ said:


> I am new to this great community of Marriott owners. I own a 1 bedroom at the Aruba Ocean Club and am considering buying an additional 2 bedroom (both Platinum). I am a bit shell shocked after reading this thread. Should I hold off my purchasing decision until this works itself out?



It is likely too late to buy at this point to have it grandfathered in (rumored deadline to register deed in your name is June 30?)

So if you will be part of "future resale buyers" you may as well get the "future resale buyers'" prices. Based on the title of this thread and Perry's comments, prices are headed down. 

(based on the logic of "a paper loss is not a real loss", a guess a "paper opportunity gain" shouldn't matter either... - sorry, I just had to say that )

Of course there is also a possibility the program will suck, few will convert, and deeded weeks will be even more valuable - so if you wait it may cost you more.

Personally, I was thinking about buying another unit myself but at this point I'll wait...


----------



## m61376

DanCali said:


> It is likely too late to buy at this point to have it grandfathered in (rumored deadline to register deed in your name is June 30?)
> 
> So if you will be part of "future resale buyers" you may as well get the "future resale buyers'" prices. Based on the title of this thread and Perry's comments, prices are headed down.
> 
> (based on the logic of "a paper loss is not a real loss", a guess a "paper opportunity gain" shouldn't matter either... - sorry, I just had to say that )
> 
> Of course there is also a possibility the program will suck, few will convert, and deeded weeks will be even more valuable - so if you wait it may cost you more.
> 
> Personally, I was thinking about buying another unit myself but at this point I'll wait...


I'd agree; personally, I'd hold off buying anything right now. IF someone was going to purchase a developer week, why shell out the $$'s and then more to join a new system and why not learn what you may be getting into before taking the plunge. IF buying resale, I think it's too late to be included in any (if there is any) grandfathering and, IF the program seems to lack universal appeal and deeded weeks become more valuable (and I think that a program akin to the Asia Pacific offering will be a business fiasco, esp. in this economy, for several reasons- cost to join and the point assignments), there will still be a sizable buying opportunity on the resale market- prices won't escalate overnight, again esp. in this economy.

Three months ago I thought buying beforehand was a safe bet. I still feel that current resale owners will be in good shape. What I am not so sure about its where future resale buyers will fall, and I think, as suggested, there will be a cut-off date, which will likely be a "closed by" and "recognized as an owner by" date, rather than a date of contract. Of course, that's only speculation on mine or anybody's part.

As for puckmanfl's query about the potential exclusion of EOY weeks- it doesn't make sense to me either; it would seem to be an easy thing to do- either assign half points every other year as MF's are paid, or have them assigned EOY as the ownership dictates; assuming there will be carry-over and borrowing, either would be seemingly workable. Maybe it is one more bookkeeping task they'd rather not undertake. There are potentially thousands of EOY owners and, IF the program is as appealing as Marriott is going to tout it as being, then why antagonize thousands of owners by telling them their purchase (many of whom have paid a premium to buy) aren't good enough. Marriott sold people on the concept of two half ownerships at different locales as well; I don't get what would motivate a business decision to exclude this subset of direct purchasers. These, like any direct purchasers, should be especially coveted owners.

But, then again, I didn't get the Asia Pacific program, nor do I understand how it is a program enhancement for more owners even if it was free- but especially at a 5K per week pricepoint- personally, I think that the majority of owners would fare much worse than the current II exchange system, and can see the appeal only for a limited number of owners (Ko'Olina owners seem to be on the winning end there). 

Then again, most people won't analyze it like we do here- and  that's what Marriott will be banking on. On the other hand, it is real easy to "google" the topic and access a thread like this. Success of a program akin to the AP program (IF that's what they introduce) will largely depend on whether owners act like sheep and simply take the "newest and greatest" offer at face value or whether they step back and do a little research first; today people are more hesitant to shell out $$'s, so Marriott may encounter a level of consumer questioning that they didn't anticipate. That could make things a bit interesting.


----------



## potchak

dougp26364 said:


> I'm thinking Manor Club or maybe Willow Ridge in Branson might be the equivilent



I am hoping so! I have 2 manor club weeks! 

I would also very disappointed if EOY are not included in the program


----------



## taudelt

*So does anyone have the actual Marriott announcement about this?*

So, forgive the noobie comment here, but with 63 pages of commentary on this topic, I would appreciate some help:

What is the official deal from Marriott? Does anyone have a formal statement of the changes?

I'm in an awkward situation as I bought 2 weeks at the Marriott Harbour Lake in Orlando through the resale market with the deeds recorded 29 March 2010. Marriott still has not transferred the weeks from the original owner to me due to an error with the selling agency only sending the transfer fees for one week instead of two. Marriott is now telling me that the transfer will not occur before 30 July 2010. To top things off the sellers banked the 2 weeks for 2010 with II prior to the sale.

Can someone tell me if I have deeded weeks or points? What happens with the II banked weeks under this change?

Appreciate the help.


----------



## DanCali

taudelt said:


> So, forgive the noobie comment here, but with 63 pages of commentary on this topic, I would appreciate some help:
> 
> What is the official deal from Marriott? Does anyone have a formal statement of the changes?
> 
> I'm in an awkward situation as I bought 2 weeks at the Marriott Harbour Lake in Orlando through the resale market with the deeds recorded 29 March 2010. Marriott still has not transferred the weeks from the original owner to me due to an error with the selling agency only sending the transfer fees for one week instead of two. Marriott is now telling me that the transfer will not occur before 30 July 2010. To top things off the sellers banked the 2 weeks for 2010 with II prior to the sale.
> 
> Can someone tell me if I have deeded weeks or points? What happens with the II banked weeks under this change?
> 
> Appreciate the help.



These are two separate issues.

First, you bought deeded weeks. If Marriott launches a points program and grandfathers existing resale owners I assume this will apply to you since the transaction closed and the units are already deeded to you at the Florida county recorder. The fact Marriott didn't transfer the ownership seems to me like just a technicality. Obviously, it's not up to me though - it's just my opinion.

In regards to 2010 usage - did you reimburse the seller for 2010 MFs? If so they had no business depositing the 2010 weeks into II... If you agreed to start using in 2011 then the seller can use the 2010 weeks as he pleases.


----------



## taudelt

DanCali said:


> did you reimburse the seller for 2010 MFs?



For 2010 usage, we paid 2010 MFs, but knew that the weeks were banked before we bought. We have the paperwork to transfer ownership of the weeks with II to send them once our ownership is cleared through Marriott. My question is more of the effect of the changes Marriott is making and how that relates to they are seen by II.


----------



## brigechols

taudelt said:


> What is the official deal from Marriott? Does anyone have a formal statement of the changes?



There has been no official announcement from Marriott.



taudelt said:


> Can someone tell me if I have deeded weeks or points?



You have a deeded week.



taudelt said:


> What happens with the II banked weeks under this change?



Nothing since the rumored change concerns Marriott and not II. You will still have two banked weeks with II.


----------



## DanCali

taudelt said:


> For 2010 usage, we paid 2010 MFs, but knew that the weeks were banked before we bought. We have the paperwork to transfer ownership of the weeks with II to send them once our ownership is cleared through Marriott. My question is more of the effect of the changes Marriott is making and how that relates to they are seen by II.



can you just call the Marriott transfer department, explain the situation and ask what it would take to make it happen. If they tell you they need to get paid ask if you can pay them directly via credit card (I assume it's around $100 or less) and hopefully that will get the ball rolling. You can then try to sort things out with the closing company or broker who messed up. Hopefully you can get the ball rolling that way.


----------



## mjkkb2

I just spoke with my rep trying to get the II memebership accelerated that they pay for and he mentioned that he was in training for last few days.

I have asked him what kind of training, and he said that there's some new exciting things coming for Marriott owners and that I'll love it.

Hm... wondering if I really will.....

Regardelss, a change is coming.


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Perry, Doug, Fletch,Dean, Jon Boca , SueDon or any other TUGGER out there
> 
> I am still waiting for someone to explain why it would make any sense to exclude EOY's.  Just when I am coming down from my "Perrymeter" and seeing some hope for this.  I get to the part where it may be "moot" and 1/2 of my ownership won't even hear from the "GODFATHER"
> 
> I am new to this, just need to understand any gains that could come to the "mother" company by this exclusion.  My logic states , that if they are going to risk alienating a portion of the owner base, it must come with some $$$ reason...
> 
> please help...


Personally I'm not sure it does make sense.  The only reason it would make sense is if they simply don't work well with any model they might end up using.  I doubt it'll make sense for the member for one with a week they use and 1 or 2 EOY weeks to convert though given there will likely be a conversion fee per week and a yearly club fee.  But they might do an end run and only convert if you upgrade to an EY points package and trade in you EOY week.  Though I don't doubt Fletch's info was accurate at one time, and may still be, I agree with Doug that it's a decision that could easily change and likely will in some way.  It might even be a fat no initially and change later.


----------



## GregT

Dean said:


> Though I don't doubt Fletch's info was accurate at one time, and may still be, I agree with Doug that it's a decision that could easily change and likely will in some way.



The two views could be reconciled if Marriott allows EOY weeks into the point system (as many of us expect) but does not sell future EOY point packages, only annual point packages (which would then be consistent with what Fletch has heard).

We will need a new thread once hard facts are known about the program. 

This puppy is pushing 1,575 posts since February 2010.   If Perry brings out another film spoof, we could blow through 2,000.

For comparison, the infamous Aruba thread _only _has 2,750 posts after almost two years.


----------



## m61376

GregT said:


> The two views could be reconciled if Marriott allows EOY weeks into the point system (as many of us expect) but does not sell future EOY point packages, only annual point packages (which would then be consistent with what Fletch has heard).
> 
> We will need a new thread once hard facts are known about the program.
> 
> This puppy is pushing 1,575 posts since February 2010.   If Perry brings out another film spoof, we could blow through 2,000.
> 
> For comparison, the infamous Aruba thread _only _has 2,750 posts after almost two years.



And IF this does come to fruition in the next few weeks and continues in this thread, I suspect this will easily surpass the Ocean Club thread in a week after the announcement.:hysterical: :hysterical:


----------



## PerryM

*Recap to date...*

As a public service gesture here is a recap of this thread to date:

[...................]

I hope you got that.

Marriott is going to make some kind of announcement "soon" and it probably has something to do with an Internal Points Exchange System and perhaps a total upheaval of how they sell timeshares.

Oh, and the Marriott salesreps say "we will like it".

That just about sums it up - and a lot of guessing on just about everyone's part.

So here it is again:

[...................]


----------



## rsackett

PerryM said:


> As a public service gesture here is a recap of this thread to date:
> 
> [...................]
> 
> I hope you got that.
> 
> Marriott is going to make some kind of announcement "soon" and it probably has something to do with an Internal Points Exchange System and perhaps a total upheaval of how they sell timeshares.
> 
> Oh, and the Marriott salesreps say "we will like it, *Unless you bought/buy RESALE, then your week will be worthless!"*
> 
> That just about sums it up - and a lot of guessing on just about everyone's part.
> 
> So here it is again:
> 
> [...................]



I made one correction to your post.  

Ray


----------



## ricki999

Fletch said:


> Doug,
> 
> The reason that thier EOY weeks are cheap is they have come out and said they dont convert in the new system so anyone with EOY's is SOL.
> I know what you are saying but this is what MVCI has said !



I missed this announcement by MVCI.  Can you direct me to where I can see this announcement.


----------



## dougp26364

ricki999 said:


> I missed this announcement by MVCI.  Can you direct me to where I can see this announcement.




I eventually recieved notification by E-mail. I'd imagine all you would need to do is call MVCI and you'll be directed to the telephone sales dept.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> As a public service gesture here is a recap of this thread to date:
> 
> [...................]
> 
> I hope you got that.
> 
> Marriott is going to make some kind of announcement "soon" and it probably has something to do with an Internal Points Exchange System and perhaps a total upheaval of how they sell timeshares.
> 
> Oh, and the Marriott salesreps say "we will like it".
> 
> That just about sums it up - and a lot of guessing on just about everyone's part.
> 
> So here it is again:
> 
> [...................]



This just might your best post on the subject to date.


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> Perry, Doug, Fletch,Dean, Jon Boca , SueDon or any other TUGGER out there
> 
> I am still waiting for someone to explain why it would make any sense to exclude EOY's.  Just when I am coming down from my "Perrymeter" and seeing some hope for this.  I get to the part where it may be "moot" and 1/2 of my ownership won't even hear from the "GODFATHER"
> 
> I am new to this, just need to understand any gains that could come to the "mother" company by this exclusion.  My logic states , that if they are going to risk alienating a portion of the owner base, it must come with some $$$ reason...
> 
> please help...



IMHO, it doesn't make sense. This would either be pure speculation on the part of sales management or, Marriott can't figure out how to put EOY ownerships into whatever program they've cooked up. While it could be true, no other points based ownership program I'm aware of has such a restriction. Of course I don't know all there is to know about every program out there but, if Marriott can't figure out how to incorporate EOY deeds into their new plan it makes me a little concerned about Marriott mangement. 

With any luck, in a couple of weeks we might get some real answers rather an all our speculation, guessing and wringing of hands.


----------



## Starbucks

As i am already looking forward doing some calculations within the new programm. Is there anywhere on TUG a list showing current developer sales prices for MVCI resorts ?

Doing a simple Last Sale price/number of points calculation would be one of my first steps to see where MVCI puts the new value.


----------



## AceValenta

I say we call the sales departments in cities (not the telemarketing department) on June 7th or June 14th.....It will rid ourselves of the rumors instantly. If they are supposed to be closed for training, then no one should be there. Right?

I for one, am still not buying it. 

Most corporations would rotate training, not close offices and lose potential sales. Any closure would cause them to lose potential sales when they are at their busiest. Look at the calendars, how many Platinum Seasons fall in the month of June?

Training for this program would have been implemented during low seasons to maximize full effect and exposure. This way the sales reps would have had time to perfect presentations and develop new sales techniques.

3 to 10 days to phantom program deployment. Depending on which day you believe!


----------



## jlf58

I don't understand why either but this is much more than speculation. The reason the EOY's are such a good deal now is proof that for whatever reason,
they can't convert to the points system.





dougp26364 said:


> IMHO, it doesn't make sense. This would either be pure speculation on the part of sales management or, Marriott can't figure out how to put EOY ownerships into whatever program they've cooked up. While it could be true, no other points based ownership program I'm aware of has such a restriction. Of course I don't know all there is to know about every program out there but, if Marriott can't figure out how to incorporate EOY deeds into their new plan it makes me a little concerned about Marriott mangement.
> 
> With any luck, in a couple of weeks we might get some real answers rather an all our speculation, guessing and wringing of hands.


----------



## jlf58

Your kidding right ?
I have friends still and yes, they will close for a few days for training. They
are training now briefly also. 




AceValenta said:


> I say we call the sales departments in cities (not the telemarketing department) on June 7th or June 14th.....It will rid ourselves of the rumors instantly. If they are supposed to be closed for training, then no one should be there. Right?
> 
> I for one, am still not buying it.
> 
> Most corporations would rotate training, not close offices and lose potential sales. Any closure would cause them to lose potential sales when they are at their busiest. Look at the calendars, how many Platinum Seasons fall in the month of June?
> 
> Training for this program would have been implemented during low seasons to maximize full effect and exposure. This way the sales reps would have had time to perfect presentations and develop new sales techniques.
> 
> 3 to 10 days to phantom program deployment. Depending on which day you believe!


----------



## PerryM

AceValenta said:


> ..



Hey, I know this guy, once you get past the "All humans must die" he's not a bad chap...

P.S.

I met this guy on another chat-room - he's looking at buying Earth as a timeshare and if you think we have problems with our developers, this guy's problems are out of this world - It's a small world when you think about it....

One more thing - Earth lost it's Gold Crown status - we're just a Silver Crown because of that damn oil spill; get rid of that and we can celebrate back to Gold Crown status.. Woo Hoo!


----------



## puckmanfl

Fletch...

Do you mean to tell me that sales reps are pushing EOY's at "primo" prices fully aware that in 3 weeks these units will not be invited to the "party"???  Is there any disclosure to the potential buyer??? Yikes, How do they sleep at night????  Would not want to be one of the late purchasers of those units only to find out a few days later that they are being excluded from all of the "enhancements"


----------



## rovitm

My rep told me I would love the program and he was trying to sell me a EOY.  

I do find it hard to believe that Marriott would close the door to a large segment of their customer base.  Of the 400,000 owners how many would you think are EOY owners? If every EOY wanted in to the new program and pay whatever fee it is going to be, does it make sense for Marriott to say no "we don't want your money".  Especially when other point programs have EOY ownerships.  To say it s not feasible makes me question the program already.





puckmanfl said:


> Fletch...
> 
> Do you mean to tell me that sales reps are pushing EOY's at "primo" prices fully aware that in 3 weeks these units will not be invited to the "party"???  Is there any disclosure to the potential buyer??? Yikes, How do they sleep at night????  Would not want to be one of the late purchasers of those units only to find out a few days later that they are being excluded from all of the "enhancements"


----------



## jlf58

Thats a good point. All I can tell you is I was told they can't use them in the points program and they are pushing them now to get rid of them so, yeah, I guess thats the case. for what it's worth, 90% of the salesman probably don't even know why they are selling the EOY's for less at this point. 

BTW
I would have thought maybe what I was told was wrong but the fact that the are selling the EOY's heavily discounted makes me think it's right. 


Not much better that the guy buying 2 days before they flip to points to find out his Gold Grande Vista week ain't worth crap in the new points system  




puckmanfl said:


> Fletch...
> 
> Do you mean to tell me that sales reps are pushing EOY's at "primo" prices fully aware that in 3 weeks these units will not be invited to the "party"???  Is there any disclosure to the potential buyer??? Yikes, How do they sleep at night????  Would not want to be one of the late purchasers of those units only to find out a few days later that they are being excluded from all of the "enhancements"


----------



## pefs65

Well let me say as a EOY resale owner if Marriott is shutting me and other EOY owners out from there new great point system then that will make my desicion easy for me in that I wont have to calculate for me whether to join it or not.

Also since I bought where I wanted to vacation I will continue to enjoy going to maui Ocean Club EOY and I could either rent other Marriott TS with my MVI discount or place it in II for trade on the rare hardly ever time I would want to trade it which would probably be almost never.

We all continue to wait and see what happens.


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> I don't understand why either but this is much more than speculation. The reason the EOY's are such a good deal now is proof that for whatever reason,
> they can't convert to the points system.



If that's the case, at some point down the road I look for them to reverse that decision. They should have sold enough package deals where owners could buy two different resorts as EOY deeds plus, they were selling EOY deeds with the option to purchase the corresponding EOY deed to make it as good as an EY deed. It would seem that they should have enough EOY owners who will question Marriott's desire to keep owners happy.

There will also be a number of owners like myself, who own both EY and EOY deeds. l won't put one in any new program unless all can go. A decision not to allow a certain class of owners to join any new program will only go to prove Perry's point that Marriott couldn't care less about their owners. Marriott has tried to cultavate the appearence that owners matter to them. Tickikng off resale owners and EOY owners that have bought direct from Marriott will be a pretty stupid thing for them to do.


----------



## billymach4

*EOY owners are happy owners*

I would not fret one moment if this so called rumor of the larger rumor turns out to be true. 

EOY owners will then be business as usual. Besides how does anyone know if this thing will be so much better? The grass has not even grown, and we all think it might be greener. 

Please stop this insanity. This rumor has morphed way out of control. Lets wait until the end of the month and find out for sure what will eventually happen. 

At this point it is all pure speculation. Without much in the way of concrete facts. We are just attempting to read the tea leaves, and connect dots.


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> Thats a good point. All I can tell you is I was told they can't use them in the points program and they are pushing them now to get rid of them so, yeah, I guess thats the case. for what it's worth, 90% of the salesman probably don't even know why they are selling the EOY's for less at this point.
> 
> BTW
> I would have thought maybe what I was told was wrong but the fact that the are selling the EOY's heavily discounted makes me think it's right.
> 
> 
> Not much better that the guy buying 2 days before they flip to points to find out his Gold Grande Vista week ain't worth crap in the new points system



Marriott saying they can't use them is not the same as saying existing owners can't convert them. I think there might have been a misfortunate use of language resulting in an interpretation that no EOY weeks will be allowed to convert. It depends on what the person who was doing the talking was trying to convey. It might just mean Marriott doesn't want to sell EOY ownership in a trust based points program and/or there is a problem with registration for new sales. 

I'm not saying your wrong. Your interpretation could be spot on. I am saying there is room to say you've made an assumption and that you might have taken the statement you heard out of context. At any rate, we should know if a few more weeks. While I would feel slightly offended by being excluded, in the end it might not matter all that much to us. We bought our weeks primarly to use and I'm not certain I'd want to give up home resort advantage if that means we might lose the views and unit layouts we purchased.


----------



## dougp26364

billymach4 said:


> I would not fret one moment if this so called rumor of the larger rumor turns out to be true.
> 
> EOY owners will then be business as usual. Besides how does anyone know if this thing will be so much better? The grass has not even grown, and we all think it might be greener.
> 
> Please stop this insanity. This rumor has morphed way out of control. Lets wait until the end of the month and find out for sure what will eventually happen.
> 
> At this point it is all pure speculation. Without much in the way of concrete facts. We are just attempting to read the tea leaves, and connect dots.



I would like to be able to consider ALL options and, on principle, want all optioins open to me. I pay MF's that are just as big as any other owner at the resorts we own. I should have the opportunity to consider any new program, even if it turns out the program doesn't work for me. Exclusion is the surest way to piss off your owners. Just read the threads from resale owners when they contemplate being excluded or charged more than those that buy direct.


----------



## jlf58

Makes sense, lets see 

To me, if I owned 2 or 3 weeks with them, I would probably convert one and see how it works out. If you use the week at your home resort every year, it makes no sense to convert 




dougp26364 said:


> Marriott saying they can't use them is not the same as saying existing owners can't convert them. I think there might have been a misfortunate use of language resulting in an interpretation that no EOY weeks will be allowed to convert. It depends on what the person who was doing the talking was trying to convey. It might just mean Marriott doesn't want to sell EOY ownership in a trust based points program and/or there is a problem with registration for new sales.
> 
> I'm not saying your wrong. Your interpretation could be spot on. I am saying there is room to say you've made an assumption and that you might have taken the statement you heard out of context. At any rate, we should know if a few more weeks. While I would feel slightly offended by being excluded, in the end it might not matter all that much to us. We bought our weeks primarly to use and I'm not certain I'd want to give up home resort advantage if that means we might lose the views and unit layouts we purchased.


----------



## billymach4

dougp26364 said:


> I would like to be able to consider ALL options and, on principle, want all optioins open to me. I pay MF's that are just as big as any other owner at the resorts we own. I should have the opportunity to consider any new program, even if it turns out the program doesn't work for me. Exclusion is the surest way to piss off your owners. Just read the threads from resale owners when they contemplate being excluded or charged more than those that buy direct.



Doug totally agree. Absolutely I will feel discriminated by Marriott if this part of the program turns out to be true. However I am happy will the status quo. I trade around to various resorts well in advance, and enjoy my vacations. 

I really don't see anything changing my ability to trade for at least 5 years, maybe 10 years. Marriott is not going to be able to convert all owners immediately. 

And now we are speculating they are going to exclude all EOY owners. So that makes my situation status quo.


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> Makes sense, lets see
> 
> To me, if I owned 2 or 3 weeks with them, I would probably convert one and see how it works out. If you use the week at your home resort every year, it makes no sense to convert



The problem is, making sense of something and reality often have very little to do with each other. I'll be glad when everything is finally laid out on the table rather than all the assumptions and guess work.

I'm so accustomed to rumors where I work that I've learned to listen very carefully to what is being said down to what words they use. The old saying of believe 10% of what you hear and 90% of what you see has always held true in my world. missinterpretation is an art form causing the rumors to get really wild sometimes.


----------



## hank4647

*June 17 2010 Program Change*

We met with our sales rep and a corporate sales rep yesterday.  The new program becomes effective June 17, 2010.  On that date all unsold property is  rolled into a trust.  Those weeks will then be the base of a points system.  New customers will buy points.  Each of the weeks or partial weeks available in the trust will require points to use.  This program will work much like the points to use a Marriott Hotel.  The weeks we own can be used as we currently use them, rolled over to hotel or time share points.  The points for our weeks can them be used on a daily basis versus our current weekly basis.
There will also be some type of maintenance fee accessed to all new customers bases on the total maintenance required for all of the resort weeks in the trust.

Marriott is also dumping II.  The theory is that must Marriott customers want to stay at Marriott timeshares.  Those who belong to II will have the opportunity of depositing their weeks at II for exchange, but Marriott will not require one to go through II.


----------



## Pro

WOW !!!​

Joe


----------



## RedDogSD

hank4647 said:


> We met with our sales rep and a corporate sales rep yesterday.  The new program becomes effective June 17, 2010.  On that date all unsold property is  rolled into a trust.  Those weeks will then be the base of a points system.  New customers will buy points.  Each of the weeks or partial weeks available in the trust will require points to use.  This program will work much like the points to use a Marriott Hotel.  The weeks we own can be used as we currently use them, rolled over to hotel or time share points.  The points for our weeks can them be used on a daily basis versus our current weekly basis.
> There will also be some type of maintenance fee accessed to all new customers bases on the total maintenance required for all of the resort weeks in the trust.
> 
> Marriott is also dumping II.  The theory is that must Marriott customers want to stay at Marriott timeshares.  Those who belong to II will have the opportunity of depositing their weeks at II for exchange, but Marriott will not require one to go through II.



I am sorry...with all due respect, I am going to wait and see.  At least Fletch has been here for years with this info....you just got here and this is your 2nd post....you may just like stirring up the pot, or spreading BS.


----------



## timeos2

*Do you live today or every other day?*



hank4647 said:


> We met with our sales rep and a corporate sales rep yesterday.  The new program becomes effective June 17, 2010.  On that date all unsold property is  rolled into a trust.  Those weeks will then be the base of a points system.  New customers will buy points.  Each of the weeks or partial weeks available in the trust will require points to use.  This program will work much like the points to use a Marriott Hotel.  The weeks we own can be used as we currently use them, rolled over to hotel or time share points.  The points for our weeks can them be used on a daily basis versus our current weekly basis.
> There will also be some type of maintenance fee accessed to all new customers bases on the total maintenance required for all of the resort weeks in the trust.
> 
> Marriott is also dumping II.  The theory is that must Marriott customers want to stay at Marriott timeshares.  Those who belong to II will have the opportunity of depositing their weeks at II for exchange, but Marriott will not require one to go through II.



From the mouth of a weasel comes what we were all told was coming. No surprise except that it dragged out for SO long.  Maybe now the facts rather than wild conjecture can be dissected.  

Somehow I'll  bet the world will still turn after 6/17/10 for both every year and every other year participants in life.


----------



## GregT

hank4647 said:


> We met with our sales rep and a corporate sales rep yesterday.  The new program becomes effective June 17, 2010.  On that date all unsold property is  rolled into a trust.  Those weeks will then be the base of a points system.  New customers will buy points.  Each of the weeks or partial weeks available in the trust will require points to use.  This program will work much like the points to use a Marriott Hotel.  The weeks we own can be used as we currently use them, rolled over to hotel or time share points.  The points for our weeks can them be used on a daily basis versus our current weekly basis.
> There will also be some type of maintenance fee accessed to all new customers bases on the total maintenance required for all of the resort weeks in the trust.
> 
> Marriott is also dumping II.  The theory is that must Marriott customers want to stay at Marriott timeshares.  Those who belong to II will have the opportunity of depositing their weeks at II for exchange, but Marriott will not require one to go through II.




Hank, welcome to TUG.  I agree with others that your spectacularly brief track record combined with some significant "hard data" is a bit on the odd side, but since we are all speculating, please join the fun.

A few questions for our newly-arrived colleague from Brighton:

1) Any rumors on home resort advantage
2) Any rumors on if EOY can participate
3) Will Hawaii properties require higher points than others
4) Will a copy of The Godfather be given to new points participants 

We welcome your continuing to share any real information that you've heard, and trust that you're not just telling us fish stories because of our insatiable curiousity.    

Frankly, if you are a Marriott insider, I'd be curious what you're hearing, and don't object to the sleight of hand or veil of secrecy.  And if you're from Brighton, it's a nice place. 

Thanks.


----------



## Pro

I hope RCI doesn't roll out their new program on the same day.  I don't think there will be enough hours in the day for me to read all the responses.

Joe


----------



## DanCali

hank4647 said:


> We met with our sales rep and a corporate sales rep yesterday.  The new program becomes effective June 17, 2010.  On that date all unsold property is  rolled into a trust.  Those weeks will then be the base of a points system.  New customers will buy points.  Each of the weeks or partial weeks available in the trust will require points to use.  This program will work much like the points to use a Marriott Hotel.  The weeks we own can be used as we currently use them, rolled over to hotel or time share points.  The points for our weeks can them be used on a daily basis versus our current weekly basis.
> There will also be some type of maintenance fee accessed to all new customers bases on the total maintenance required for all of the resort weeks in the trust.
> 
> Marriott is also dumping II.  The theory is that must Marriott customers want to stay at Marriott timeshares.  Those who belong to II will have the opportunity of depositing their weeks at II for exchange, but Marriott will not require one to go through II.



I guess your sales rep reads TUG...


----------



## AceValenta

Fletch said:


> Your kidding right ?
> I have friends still and yes, they will close for a few days for training. They
> are training now briefly also.



Not kidding at all Fletch.....There isn't anything in the news nor have there been financial disclosures to the investors. This is a large project and someone, somewhere, somehow would have produced some solid information about the project. 

I am skeptical until there is proof of the facts....

1. There is training....Even if there has been some minor training, people need to know what to say and how to say it to make it an effective sale. 
2. Brochures and multimedia items need to be written, designed, printed...
3. They have to get approval from states where they are doing business. 
4. There hasn't been any type of release to news or financial disclosures. 

All we have now is speculation and rumors....Nothing factual. I know you worked for Marriott and now work for another company selling the same product but who benefits from perpetuating the rumors?

I will not believe it until it is fact and see the proof. There are too many cracks in organizations to keep secrets this large this quiet. And if this was a great product Marriott would be leaking info to build the hype and make people want to buy this new and improved product, not sell weeks before they are gone. 

In other words, they would squelch the rumors and make a media blitz to make selling this product easier.  

Until there is proof positive that a shooter was in grassy knolls, this man acted alone. 






Until there is factual proof that this program exists, it is pure rumor.


----------



## PerryM

*Hey EOY owners - welcome to Misfit Island....*

Of course Marriott will tell EOY owners to take a hike - that probably means there is no such thing as EOY memberships.

These are but the first Marriott owners to be discarded like one shoe that has lost its mate.

There will be other cold-blooded actions taken against other owners.

Let's not forget that the primary reason for this new scheme is to enrich the fortunes of the Marriott stockholder.

Sure Marriott gets a lot of business from owner referrals but that will probably be offset with a bounty set up for recruiting fellow owners to convert, and that will easily offset the "Misfit" owners who just don't belong in this new wonderful program with good folks like us.

So get a list of friends and family you can turn in for assimilation.

"Resistance is Futile" - I said that...


----------



## RedDogSD

Hey, honestly, if they do decide that EOY members cannot join the Points program, that may not be a bad thing for those of us who want to continue trading with II.  There will be plenty of EOY owners depositing their weeks into II and those of us who do not go into their program can still have great trades. 

I don't think they will do that, but I don't care if they do.


----------



## PerryM

*Rip Eoy*



RedDogSD said:


> Hey, honestly, if they do decide that EOY members cannot join the Points program, that may not be a bad thing for those of us who want to continue trading with II.  There will be plenty of EOY owners depositing their weeks into II and those of us who do not go into their program can still have great trades.
> 
> I don't think they will do that, but I don't care if they do.



The day Marriott kicks EOY out of their new system is the day an EOY Marriott units becomes worthless on the resale market.

These weeks can't ever be used in the new great system.

All those salesreps who espoused the virtues of "one year here and one year somewhere else" will quickly purge those thoughts from their memory.

RIP EOY...


----------



## RedDogSD

PerryM said:


> The day Marriott kicks EOY out of their new system is the day an EOY Marriott units becomes worthless on the resale market.
> 
> These weeks can't ever be used in the new great system.
> 
> All those salesreps who espoused the virtues of "one year here and one year somewhere else" will quickly purge those thoughts from their memory.
> 
> RIP EOY...



Well then, I am looking forward to getting another Ko'Olina EOY and an MOC EOY on the resale market when they become worthless.  Since I will use them, and not trade them, I will be happy.  

I don't see them becoming worthless any time soon.  I don't think that their Market value is set because of their ability to trade within some new Marriott system.


----------



## PerryM

RedDogSD said:


> Well then, I am looking forward to getting another Ko'Olina EOY and an MOC EOY on the resale market when they become worthless.  Since I will use them, and not trade them, I will be happy.
> 
> I don't see them becoming worthless any time soon.  I don't think that their Market value is set because of their ability to trade within some new Marriott system.



Of course folks "helping out" EOY Marriott owners for $1 on eBay will do well.

There will be all kinds of opportunities from the misfortunes of others - that's why we are here isn't it?

But I do believe the average Marriott owner who is told he can't belong to the new club will just assume $1 is all their unit is worth; and I think they are right.


----------



## rsackett

PerryM said:


> Of course folks "helping out" EOY Marriott owners for $1 on eBay will do well.
> 
> There will be all kinds of opportunities from the misfortunes of others - that's why we are here isn't it?
> 
> But I do believe the average Marriott owner who is told he can't belong to the new club will just assume $1 is all their unit is worth; and I think they are right.




After the anouncement comes out, anybody that owns a Platinum season at a mainland USA beach front resort, I will pay you the expected $1 ebay price and you can save the ebay listing fee.  

Ray


----------



## GregT

RedDogSD said:


> Well then, I am looking forward to getting another Ko'Olina EOY and an MOC EOY on the resale market when they become worthless.  Since I will use them, and not trade them, I will be happy.
> 
> I don't see them becoming worthless any time soon.  I don't think that their Market value is set because of their ability to trade within some new Marriott system.




We need to coordinate our efforts so that we're not bidding against each other for those resale MOC and Ko Olina EOY's for a buck.    

Then I will put in a Sound of Music spoof.

Ace, Lee Harvey had to have help.  Why didn't he take the shot when JFK was on Houston street?

Also, I don't think Kagan should be confirmed.

Finally, I think BP is a good buy right now, but they should've done more to prevent it.

That should get this thread to 2,750 in no time.


----------



## m61376

hank4647 said:


> We met with our sales rep and a corporate sales rep yesterday.  The new program becomes effective June 17, 2010.  On that date all unsold property is  rolled into a trust.  Those weeks will then be the base of a points system.  New customers will buy points.  Each of the weeks or partial weeks available in the trust will require points to use.  This program will work much like the points to use a Marriott Hotel.  The weeks we own can be used as we currently use them, rolled over to hotel or time share points.  The points for our weeks can them be used on a daily basis versus our current weekly basis.
> There will also be some type of maintenance fee accessed to all new customers bases on the total maintenance required for all of the resort weeks in the trust.
> 
> Marriott is also dumping II.  The theory is that must Marriott customers want to stay at Marriott timeshares.  Those who belong to II will have the opportunity of depositing their weeks at II for exchange, but Marriott will not require one to go through II.



I could buy most of what you posted. But a month or two ago Marriott just signed a new, long term contract with II. So they are not severing their relationship.

That does cast a doubt on the rest of what you were told.


----------



## m61376

PerryM said:


> The day Marriott kicks EOY out of their new system is the day an EOY Marriott units becomes worthless on the resale market.
> 
> These weeks can't ever be used in the new great system.
> 
> All those salesreps who espoused the virtues of "one year here and one year somewhere else" will quickly purge those thoughts from their memory.
> 
> RIP EOY...



Or the flip side may be true- IF Marriott eliminates home resort priority, I can see an increased demand for certain EOY weeks.


----------



## GregT

m61376 said:


> I could buy most of what you posted. But a month or two ago Marriott just signed a new, long term contract with II. So they are not severing their relationship.




Unfortunately, I could see what our mysterious friend from Brighton is saying.  

We don't know the terms of the renewal, and it is very possible that Marriott renewed the affiliation with Interval International, but eliminated/curtailed the contractual requirement that they deposit inventory into II (since they now have an alternative in an internal exchange system).   It makes sense that Marriott needs affiliation with some trading company for those owners that are orphaned or choose not to join, and II is established (and probably paid something to Marriott for that privilege).

We know Marriott is still depositing inventory into II (at the moment) because of the recent slug of MFC weeks and likely will for the foreseeable future since they likely have more excess weeks than any new system can absorb.  It will be interesting to see if the pace of bulk deposits continues after "the announcement", or gradually lessens over time.   

Or our friend from Brighton may simply be off the mark, which I hope because my Worldmark can see lots of Marriotts.

All the best,

Greg


----------



## PerryM

*The cook from Hell's Kitchen...*



m61376 said:


> Or the flip side may be true- IF Marriott eliminates home resort priority, I can see an increased demand for certain EOY weeks.



95% of Marriott owners have little desire to learn the minutiae we kick around here daily.  All they will know is that their EOY can't participate in the new exchange system and they are left in the cold.

I doubt they will find eBay folks willing to tell them that they are nuts for listing their unit for $1 and anything more than that will have lots of buyers informing them that their EOY is worthless.

It will take a while for all of this to sink in and as more and more inventory moves to the new system it will be harder and harder to snag anything of value either EOY or EY for those of us who don't convert.

I see no surprise upside to any scenario I can cook up - just a big flop...


----------



## PerryM

*Pole dancing 101*



rsackett said:


> After the anouncement comes out, anybody that owns a Platinum season at a mainland USA beach front resort, I will pay you the expected $1 ebay price and you can save the ebay listing fee.
> 
> Ray



Sorry, Marriott will feel like its at a strip club and doesn't have enough $1 bills....


----------



## RedDogSD

PerryM said:


> I doubt they will find eBay folks willing to tell them that they are nuts for listing their unit for $1 and anything more than that will have lots of buyers informing them that their EOY is worthless.



One points.....TS owners, Marriott or otherwise, almost never put their units up for $1.  They have high starting prices, reserves and other things.  Their units rarely sell.  The ones going for $1 are from the Resellers like VI (who I like).  So, the question is, can those guys convince enough of the Marriott owners to let them list their units with them.....

I hope so.  I will gladly pay $2 on Thursday for a Hamburger today.


----------



## rovitm

rovitm said:


> I have only been keeping up with this topic for a couple of weeks.  Around a month ago I inquired about a EOY in Newport.  I already have a EOY resale.  My Marriott rep provided the pricing and I told him I would think about it.
> 
> I called my rep today and told him I was still thinking about it.  I asked him   should I buy now or wait two weeks until the points system comes out.  Of course he said to buy now.  By buying now I would enjoy the best of both worlds and I would be very happy.  I asked him if I do buy now will there be a fee to convert and would it be the same for my resale.  He told me he did not know how much it would cost.  I said it would be crazy to buy now not knowing the costs it may be to convert and not really knowing how I would benefit from it.  He did tell me that I will not be obligated to convert the resale week and had nothing else really to say.




This is my last post on this topic until the change occurs.  My rep got back to me today and he said he spoke to his Director of Sales.  He confirmed everything we knew about no more EOY being offered after the 16th.  He said his Director told him that I would be much happier buying now rather than later.  It could all be a ploy to get me to buy but I am not sure how they could get away with this if EOY were not to be included in the new program.


----------



## indyhorizons

RedDogSD said:


> Hey, honestly, if they do decide that EOY members cannot join the Points program, that may not be a bad thing for those of us who want to continue trading with II.  There will be plenty of EOY owners depositing their weeks into II and those of us who do not go into their program can still have great trades.
> 
> I don't think they will do that, but I don't care if they do.



Ditto RedDog, Ditto.


----------



## PerryM

*Odd + Even = Whole - timeshare math 101*



RedDogSD said:


> One points.....TS owners, Marriott or otherwise, almost never put their units up for $1.  They have high starting prices, reserves and other things.  Their units rarely sell.  The ones going for $1 are from the Resellers like VI (who I like).  So, the question is, can those guys convince enough of the Marriott owners to let them list their units with them.....
> 
> I hope so.  I will gladly pay $2 on Thursday for a Hamburger today.



Plenty of $1 timeshares on eBay and other places.

Just because an EOY is worthless to us doesn't mean it's worthless to Marriott.

Marriott created the EOY and it can simply put an even and odd together and magically have an EY to sell at full price/points.  The ROFR allows Marriott to easily decide when to snatch up an odd or even to make a whole.

To me this is the main reason to bar EOY from their new system - they can make their own whole timeshares out of our discarded parts - timeshare recycling.  Hey, everyone says Marriott is a smart company - right?

There are a lot of reasons for Marriott to disparage the resale market and they all come back to profits for their stockholders.

P.S.
EOY owners - expect a post card from Marriott making you an offer you can't refuse....


----------



## JimIg23

hey, hey, hey. slow down on the $1 EOYs.......   I have two of them.   I dont see them losing their value that quick since they still are good weeks to own and can trade in II.  However, I've done the math and even if I sold them for $2, with all the lock offs, trades, ACs, etc, I would still come out paying less than most nice hotels for all the weeks I have used.....


----------



## taffy19

rovitm said:


> This is my last post on this topic until the change occurs. My rep got back to me today and he said he spoke to his Director of Sales. He confirmed everything we knew about no more EOY being offered after the 16th. He said his Director told him that I would be much happier buying now rather than later. It could all be a ploy to get me to buy but I am not sure how they could get away with this if EOY were not to be included in the new program.


To me no more EOY being offered after the 16th means something completely different than that EOY owners cannot convert their EOY deed in points. There would be a revolt and certainly by the direct customers. It would cost Marriott too much in court. JMHO.

I also believe that EOY contracts will not go to zero and certainly not at the popular places at the right season. People would snatch them up for their personal use. I would too if I were younger.


----------



## taffy19

PerryM said:


> Plenty of $1 timeshares on eBay and other places.
> 
> Just because an EOY is worthless to us doesn't mean it's worthless to Marriott.
> 
> Marriott created the EOY and it can simply put an even and odd together and magically have an EY to sell at full price/points. The ROFR allows Marriott to easily decide when to snatch up an odd or even to make a whole.
> 
> To me this is the main reason to bar EOY from their new system - they can make their own whole timeshares out of our discarded parts - timeshare recycling.
> 
> There are a lot of reasons for Marriott to disparage the resale market and they all come back to profits for their stockholders.


Perry, do you own Wastegate by any chance? From what I read here is that they are a bad company and almost going under but I don't believe that Marriott would stoop that low as they have a big loyal customer base following so why would they screw that up?

You just like to stir up the pot and you are doing a good job and make the thread interesting to read.


----------



## PerryM

iconnections said:


> Perry, do you own Wastegate by any chance? From what I read here is that they are a bad company and almost going under but I don't believe that Marriott would stoop that low as they have a big loyal customer base following so why would they screw that up?
> 
> You just like to stir up the pot and you are doing a good job and make the thread interesting to read.



We own a lot of timeshares and use or rent all of them.

I still think that MVCI is in trouble and the reason it seems to be chucking 20+ years of sales to try a new pony.  I can't prove that but I just can't think of a worse time to approach 400,000+ owners and demand more money so they can continue vacationing at Marriotts.

A simple exchange system with no price gouging or massive retraining of 400,000 families I can see.

But to bet the farm on an unproven system I just don't understand right now.

Maybe things will become crystal clear on 6/15 - 6/17, 2010.


----------



## DanCali

PerryM said:


> Let's not forget that the primary reason for this new scheme is to enrich the fortunes of the Marriott stockholder.



But if we argue this is insignificant to Marriott, but significant to MVCI (hence no shareholder disclosure required) then how will this enrich the MAR shareholder?


----------



## timeos2

*The hey days may ave been brutal if you bough into the hype*



iconnections said:


> Perry, do you own Wastegate by any chance? From what I read here is that they are a bad company and almost going under but I don't believe that Marriott would stoop that low as they have a big loyal customer base following so why would they screw that up?
> 
> You just like to stir up the pot and you are doing a good job and make the thread interesting to read.



At one time Perry trumpeted the worst Wastegate - Planet Hollywood Tower of Terror - as THE best timeshare anywhere & an incredible value (actually talked of it like an investment). Needless to say that didn't work out so well as 90%+ of what was claimed turned out to be fiction and the "value" - especially for rental - at or below zero.  

So forgive him if he feels a bit burned by the big boys and promises / claims that turned out to be far from reality.  In some ways it may be a backlash that he now finds the Marriott points system a slap at owners. It really is a blip in the landscape compared to tens of thousands "invested" in a losing proposition. The whole timeshare picture has changed from the high flying days and some took it a lot harder than others.  His current mantra of "don't buy any timeshare" is a huge change but far safer than the past proclamations had been.  The days of touting Destination Clubs and condo hotels are long gone too. They all had their day here and people may have been seriously burned if they bought in.

This is a great place to share ideas and suggestions but remember what you pay and that the real money is gone if you decide to buy into the latest "best thing".  Hard lessons learned when things change.


----------



## PerryM

timeos2 said:


> At one time Perry trumpeted the worst Wastegate - Planet Hollywood Tower of Terror - as THE best timeshare anywhere & an incredible value (actually talked of it like an investment). Needless to say that didn't work out so well as 90%+ of what was claimed turned out to be fiction and the "value" - especially for rental - at or below zero.
> 
> So forgive him if he feels a bit burned by the big boys and promises / claims that turned out to be far from reality.  In some ways it may be a backlash that he now finds the Marriott points system a slap at owners. It really is a blip in the landscape compared to tens of thousands "invested" in a losing proposition. The whole timeshare picture has changed from the high flying days and some took it a lot harder than others.  His current mantra of "don't buy any timeshare" is a huge change but far safer than the past proclamations had been.  The days of touting Destination Clubs and condo hotels are long gone too. They all had their day here and people may have been seriously burned if they bought in.
> 
> This is a great place to share ideas and suggestions but remember what you pay and that the real money is gone if you decide to buy into the latest "best thing".  Hard lessons learned when things change.



I understand, if you can't debate the topic the only thing left is to bash me.

Debate the topic - get over what I did to you guys 5 years ago now....

Again, I can always tell when you guys run out of ideas - its got to be Westgate to the rescue - that's the best you can do?

The topic of this thread is "Marriott may devalue timeshares in June" - run out of ideas?


----------



## pwrshift

What are the Vegas odds on whether 'anything' will or will not be announced on that fateful day?  I'm in the 'will not' camp.  

Brian


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I understand, if you can't debate the topic the only thing left is to bash me.
> 
> Debate the topic - get over what I did to you guys 5 years ago now....
> 
> Again, I can always tell when you guys run out of ideas - its got to be Westgate to the rescue - that's the best you can do?
> 
> The topic of this thread is "Marriott may devalue timeshares in June" - run out of ideas?



Not that Westgate has anything to do with what's going on now but, your trumpeting PHT as the greatest timeshare on Earth and that buying from the developer was a good/great investment tends to cast a shadow over your reliability as a source for anything but exagerated rumor not based on facts. 

As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. What I fear is that you were fooled so badly by Westgate that you've lost some of your objectivity. No doubt any new program Marriott rolls out will favor Marriott in there sales efforts in many ways but, in order for it to actually work, it must have some value to Marriott's owners. Unlike Westgate Marriott has a track record of success built on a solid foundation vs lying to their owners. At this point, I feel that Marriott deserves the benefit of the doubt until we actually can see what any new program might look like. You, on the other hand, have been nothing but doom and gloom. Hardly what you were 5 years ago. Before you were taken advantage of by a salesmen slick enough to use your over confidence against you.


----------



## dougp26364

pwrshift said:


> What are the Vegas odds on whether 'anything' will or will not be announced on that fateful day?  I'm in the 'will not' camp.
> 
> Brian



I'd say 50/50 by the end of June, 70/30 by end of August and 100% before the end of the year. There's to much evidence for me to be in the 0% camp.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Not that Westgate has anything to do with what's going on now but, your trumpeting PHT as the greatest timeshare on Earth and that buying from the developer was a good/great investment tends to cast a shadow over your reliability as a source for anything but exagerated rumor not based on facts.
> 
> As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. What I fear is that you were fooled so badly by Westgate that you've lost some of your objectivity. No doubt any new program Marriott rolls out will favor Marriott in there sales efforts in many ways but, in order for it to actually work, it must have some value to Marriott's owners. Unlike Westgate Marriott has a track record of success built on a solid foundation vs lying to their owners. At this point, I feel that Marriott deserves the benefit of the doubt until we actually can see what any new program might look like. You, on the other hand, have been nothing but doom and gloom. Hardly what you were 5 years ago. Before you were taken advantage of by a salesmen slick enough to use your over confidence against you.



Dittos what I said before.

Westgate to the rescue again.

That's 3 who have given up and must mumble about evil Westgate - I know I've scored some point here today!


----------



## jlf58

Your comments are just plain dumb. keep it secret ? This is hardly a secret...
I could give you 10 reasons how I and other people know but it is what it is.....


1. Marriott has never closed down to train, they are this time  
2. dah, they are, you just won't see it until it's rolled out
3. Thats wrong. 
4. not until it rolls out and again not needed 



I am skeptical until there is proof of the facts....

1. There is training....Even if there has been some minor training, people need to know what to say and how to say it to make it an effective sale. 
2. Brochures and multimedia items need to be written, designed, printed...
3. They have to get approval from states where they are doing business. 
4. There hasn't been any type of release to news or financial disclosures. 

All we have now is speculation and rumors....Nothing factual. I know you worked for Marriott and now work for another company selling the same product but who benefits from perpetuating the rumors?

I will not believe it until it is fact and see the proof. There are too many cracks in organizations to keep secrets this large this quiet. And if this was a great product Marriott would be leaking info to build the hype and make people want to buy this new and improved product, not sell weeks before they are gone. 

In other words, they would squelch the rumors and make a media blitz to make selling this product easier.  

Until there is proof positive that a shooter was in grassy knolls, this man acted alone. 






Until there is factual proof that this program exists, it is pure rumor.[/QUOTE]


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Of course Marriott will tell EOY owners to take a hike - that probably means there is no such thing as EOY memberships.
> 
> These are but the first Marriott owners to be discarded like one shoe that has lost its mate.
> 
> There will be other cold-blooded actions taken against other owners.
> 
> Let's not forget that the primary reason for this new scheme is to enrich the fortunes of the Marriott stockholder.
> 
> Sure Marriott gets a lot of business from owner referrals but that will probably be offset with a bounty set up for recruiting fellow owners to convert, and that will easily offset the "Misfit" owners who just don't belong in this new wonderful program with good folks like us.
> 
> So get a list of friends and family you can turn in for assimilation.
> 
> "Resistance is Futile" - I said that...



This would create a fourth class of owners. Deeded weeks owners, trust based owners (assuming this is a trust ownership), EOY deeded week owners and resale week owners. It seems to me that Marriott will try to use the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) rather than complicate matters. Boy, open that door a crack you you go through it like a bull in a china shop.

What Fletch said that he heard was Marriott wouldn't be able to use EOY weeks. Now whether that means use them as in sales, use them in the new program or use them at all is up for debate. Until any new program rolls out, it's anyones guess what was meant, sell them/use them or not have them in any new rumored program.


----------



## timeos2

*Facts aren't bashing*



PerryM said:


> I understand, if you can't debate the topic the only thing left is to bash me.
> 
> Debate the topic - get over what I did to you guys 5 years ago now....
> 
> Again, I can always tell when you guys run out of ideas - its got to be Westgate to the rescue - that's the best you can do?
> 
> The topic of this thread is "Marriott may devalue timeshares in June" - run out of ideas?



Your attempts to place the history of how we got to here & what has been said in the past as "bashing" is disingenuous. Hey, we all make bad decisions or recommendations - I OWN a Wastegate for heavens sake - you buck up and move on. Trying to say I'm being "bashed" by someone pointing out my stupid purchase into that sinkhole is beyond a stretch.  I did it, I deal with it and anyone who wants to point out what a bad choice that was is absolutely correct. No bashing involved or needed. It is part of my history of timeshare and anyone willing to consider what I may offer as opinion now deserves to consider that as part of the package. 

As for the present topic we're right on track. Everyone's past experience - good or bad - plays into what they are saying here. It's all fair game. No  bashing involved.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> This would create a fourth class of owners. Deeded weeks owners, trust based owners (assuming this is a trust ownership), EOY deeded week owners and resale week owners. It seems to me that Marriott will try to use the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) rather than complicate matters. Boy, open that door a crack you you go through it like a bull in a china shop.
> 
> What Fletch said that he heard was Marriott wouldn't be able to use EOY weeks. Now whether that means use them as in sales, use them in the new program or use them at all is up for debate. Until any new program rolls out, it's anyones guess what was meant, sell them/use them or not have them in any new rumored program.



Marriott's just doing this to enrich their stockholders - I don't find fault with that at all.

Legally they probably will decrease my "worth" of our Gold Summit Watch - I don't like it, but I can't do anything about it.

2 weeks and we will know a lot more - we will see if the salesrep was right:

"And you will love it".


----------



## PerryM

timeos2 said:


> Your attempts to place the history of how we got to here & what has been said in the past as "bashing" is disingenuous. Hey, we all make bad decisions or recommendations - I OWN a Wastegate for heavens sake - you buck up and move on. Trying to say I'm being "bashed" by someone pointing out my stupid purchase into that sinkhole is beyond a stretch.  I did it, I deal with it and anyone who wants to point out what a bad choice that was is absolutely correct. No bashing involved or needed. It is part of my history of timeshare and anyone willing to consider what I may offer as opinion now deserves to consider that as part of the package.
> 
> As for the present topic we're right on track. Everyone's past experience - good or bad - plays into what they are saying here. It's all fair game. No  bashing involved.



John you take all this way too seriously.

I don't know what Westgate did to you but leave me out of your nightmare please - that's all I ask.

P.S.
That goes for anyone else so ticked off at Westgate that it spills over to me - I don't want to be part of your problems - please.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Dittos what I said before.
> 
> Westgate to the rescue again.
> 
> That's 3 who have given up and must mumble about evil Westgate - I know I've scored some point here today!



Nope, I'm just considering that point of view as to why your posts are all "evil empire" vs being objective. You bragged so much about your purchase that, when it became obvious, you deleted all your old posts. 

You tend to be dramatic but the drama isn't always based on fact. It's important for others to know your history in order to understand why your attitude towards this is that it's all bad for owners. You got toasted by a slick salesman. You're not going to let that happen again. I don't have a problem with it but it's important to understand where you're coming from in oreder to understand you point of view on Marriott's rumored (and it is still just a rumor) program.


----------



## AceValenta

Fletch said:


> Your comments are just plain dumb. keep it secret ? This is hardly a secret...
> I could give you 10 reasons how I and other people know but it is what it is.....
> 
> 
> 1. Marriott has never closed down to train, they are this time
> 2. dah, they are, you just won't see it until it's rolled out
> 3. Thats wrong.
> 4. not until it rolls out and again not needed



Why are they dumb....SHOW ME THE PROOF THAT THIS IS IN EXISTENCE!! All that has been stated here that a points program is going to be coming out in June, and it is going to based upon the Asian Points Program.  

Wow!! The world is end in December 2012! It was supposed to end in 1999. I am still here! 

If you have a brochure, show us a link or provide a PDF! If you have a written memo, show it! 

THERE ISN'T A PAPER TRAIL....Google it and the only item you see is people talking here on TUG....

There are too many people involved to not have the facts out there. All we hear is that it will be modeled off of the Asian Points Program. We hear it from SALES PEOPLE!!! Hmmmmm.... 

I will not believe it until I see it, why is that dumb? 

Why is it stupid to call a sales department to see if people are there or in training? It is one way to possibly verify the rumors that have been circulating? Or is it that, just maybe it has been a ploy to sell units? 

If this program is so great wouldn't Marriott be hyping it up to get as many people to convert when it is released? Not just drop it in people's laps and say buy now! 

Compare it to the auto industry, no matter how hard they try to hide the latest redesigns, someone always gets a picture somehow, someway. 

There isn't a paper trail with this...I guess being called dumb is a defense when someone hits a nerve of reality! If I am wrong when it rolls out then I am sorry, but until then I am not buying it! Just the facts....Not rumors!


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Nope, I'm just considering that point of view as to why your posts are all "evil empire" vs being objective. You bragged so much about your purchase that, when it became obvious, you deleted all your old posts.
> 
> You tend to be dramatic but the drama isn't always based on fact. It's important for others to know your history in order to understand why your attitude towards this is that it's all bad for owners. You got toasted by a slick salesman. You're not going to let that happen again. I don't have a problem with it but it's important to understand where you're coming from in oreder to understand you point of view on Marriott's rumored (and it is still just a rumor) program.



Some of you just can't get over what I pulled on you over 5 years ago - get over it guys.

Tug changed the rules and that can't happen again - that should make some of you feel better.

Again, nothing to debate just sore feelings - I've moved on you guys should give it a try; but I hope for too much....


----------



## RedDogSD

AceValenta said:


> Why are they dumb....SHOW ME THE PROOF THAT THIS IS IN EXISTENCE!! All that has been stated here that a points program is going to be coming out in June, and it is going to based upon the Asian Points Program.
> 
> Wow!! The world is end in December 2012! It was supposed to end in 1999. I am still here!
> 
> If you have a brochure, show us a link or provide a PDF! If you have a written memo, show it!
> 
> THERE ISN'T A PAPER TRAIL....Google it and the only item you see is people talking here on TUG....
> 
> There are too many people involved to not have the facts out there. All we hear is that it will be modeled off of the Asian Points Program. We hear it from SALES PEOPLE!!! Hmmmmm....
> 
> I will not believe it until I see it, why is that dumb?
> 
> Why is it stupid to call a sales department to see if people are there or in training? It is one way to possibly verify the rumors that have been circulating? Or is it that, just maybe it has been a ploy to sell units?
> 
> If this program is so great wouldn't Marriott be hyping it up to get as many people to convert when it is released? Not just drop it in people's laps and say buy now!
> 
> Compare it to the auto industry, no matter how hard they try to hide the latest redesigns, someone always gets a picture somehow, someway.
> 
> There isn't a paper trail with this...I guess being called dumb is a defense when someone hits a nerve of reality! If I am wrong when it rolls out then I am sorry, but until then I am not buying it! Just the facts....Not rumors!



Good point.  Apple is the KING at keeping things quiet, and now there have been 2 Iphone 4.0s that got leaked.  So, if the Iphone that gets announced next week is like the ones that got out, then more proof that you cannot keep things quite.  I agree that something should be out in the Ether by now.  Marriott sales reps don't get paid enough to keep quiet.


----------



## JimC

dougp26364 said:


> ...The difference is that all the inventory is converted to points and points are points. It doesn't matter if the points are in Branson or if the points are in Maui. If it's a trust, deed location no longer matters to either the buyer or the seller. All that matters to the buyer is that they have enough points to reserve the unit they want and that the unit they want is available. ....



Doesn't your statement require that there is no home resort booking advantage and that annual fees are averaged across all resorts?  Otherwise ownership location will matter.  And what about locations such as California where property taxes can be assessed against individual owners (Shadow Ridge is such a resort)?  What happens in that situation?


----------



## jlf58

You brought up 4 reasons and all of them had zero merit.
BTW, nobody I know said it was modeled after the Asian points system.
Maybe it it but I never said that. Rather than give more info,
I will just say wait and see. 



AceValenta said:


> Why are they dumb....SHOW ME THE PROOF THAT THIS IS IN EXISTENCE!! All that has been stated here that a points program is going to be coming out in June, and it is going to based upon the Asian Points Program.
> 
> Wow!! The world is end in December 2012! It was supposed to end in 1999. I am still here!
> 
> If you have a brochure, show us a link or provide a PDF! If you have a written memo, show it!
> 
> THERE ISN'T A PAPER TRAIL....Google it and the only item you see is people talking here on TUG....
> 
> There are too many people involved to not have the facts out there. All we hear is that it will be modeled off of the Asian Points Program. We hear it from SALES PEOPLE!!! Hmmmmm....
> 
> I will not believe it until I see it, why is that dumb?
> 
> Why is it stupid to call a sales department to see if people are there or in training? It is one way to possibly verify the rumors that have been circulating? Or is it that, just maybe it has been a ploy to sell units?
> 
> If this program is so great wouldn't Marriott be hyping it up to get as many people to convert when it is released? Not just drop it in people's laps and say buy now!
> 
> Compare it to the auto industry, no matter how hard they try to hide the latest redesigns, someone always gets a picture somehow, someway.
> 
> There isn't a paper trail with this...I guess being called dumb is a defense when someone hits a nerve of reality! If I am wrong when it rolls out then I am sorry, but until then I am not buying it! Just the facts....Not rumors!


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Fletch...
> 
> Do you mean to tell me that sales reps are pushing EOY's at "primo" prices fully aware that in 3 weeks these units will not be invited to the "party"???  Is there any disclosure to the potential buyer??? Yikes, How do they sleep at night????  Would not want to be one of the late purchasers of those units only to find out a few days later that they are being excluded from all of the "enhancements"


I doubt the ground level sales staff are esp aware of what's coming, they're likely sitting around speculating just like we are.  Of course some will take their speculations as fodder for a sales approach and to have a little fun with their potential clients.  Companies usually try to keep these type of things pretty hush hush until they have to let everyone know.  The upper level sales staff likely no more than those that are at the ground level.  They are likely in violation of their employment/compliances rules if they reveal certain issues even if they know about them.

As for closing, I doubt it makes any difference whether they rotate the staff or do it al at once.  For something so different the cost of closing will likely be a drop in the bucket to the overall potential benefit.  The problem is that once you change over, anyone not trained is almost worthless until they are.  And if you train others too early you risk them not retaining the info well and word of mouth distorting the info and causing more problems than it's worth.  You could phase in entire resorts or groups of resorts into a points program but that has it's own issue.  IMO, all 3 options (rotating  training, phased conversions and one big change) are all reasonable options.



dougp26364 said:


> I would like to be able to consider ALL options and, on principle, want all optioins open to me. I pay MF's that are just as big as any other owner at the resorts we own. I should have the opportunity to consider any new program, even if it turns out the program doesn't work for me. Exclusion is the surest way to piss off your owners. Just read the threads from resale owners when they contemplate being excluded or charged more than those that buy direct.


There may be a difference in what you want and what options you are given.  Resale owners may not have the same options or may have a higher price, what you paid originally may be the credit you get for conversions, EOY owners may not be included, even lower season (Bronze) owners may have limited or no conversion options.  Didn't FF restrict who they allowed to convert based on the demand of the week in question when they went through this type of change?


----------



## Dean

hank4647 said:


> We met with our sales rep and a corporate sales rep yesterday.  The new program becomes effective June 17, 2010.  On that date all unsold property is  rolled into a trust.  Those weeks will then be the base of a points system.  New customers will buy points.  Each of the weeks or partial weeks available in the trust will require points to use.  This program will work much like the points to use a Marriott Hotel.  The weeks we own can be used as we currently use them, rolled over to hotel or time share points.  The points for our weeks can them be used on a daily basis versus our current weekly basis.
> There will also be some type of maintenance fee accessed to all new customers bases on the total maintenance required for all of the resort weeks in the trust.
> 
> Marriott is also dumping II.  The theory is that must Marriott customers want to stay at Marriott timeshares.  Those who belong to II will have the opportunity of depositing their weeks at II for exchange, but Marriott will not require one to go through II.


This info is somewhat consistent with some of the more reliable rumors out there.  But as noted, only 2 posts and it came from a timeshare salesperson, does question the validity somewhat.  However, to go strictly from your info as posted, it does suggest no home resort priority since I don't believe they could spread the fees evenly across a trust with a home resort priority.  The other issue is that I don't see members losing the II option though they may indeed lose the internal trading preference and may not have to go through II for Marriott trades.  

Related to other info posted above, IF there is no home resort priority or even just no season priority, it will make Plat and Plat Plus time more valuable at  many resorts for weeks not converted.  The question is whether the increased value justifies the increased overall costs.


----------



## taffy19

PerryM said:


> Dittos what I said before.
> 
> Westgate to the rescue again.
> 
> That's 3 who have given up and must mumble about evil Westgate - I know I've scored some point here today!


Sorry Perry that I mentioned Wastegate but I didn't read before that you had bought at Planet Hollywood. I am sure that the towers will get completed as the real estate there is too valuable. You haven't lost anything yet but I can imagine that you no longer trust salesmen after that purchase. There are other developers were nothing but lies are told and I can mention a few outside this country.   

You did better on Maui, if you bought there too, as we went to Duke's and visited the Honua Kai Resort which is a beautiful resort on Ka'anapali Beach with a decent warm water swimming pool. When you take chances in life, you may end up a winner or a loser.

Perry believed in Planet Hollywood or he wouldn't have bought there. He shared his opinion freely on TUG as I just Googled the thread but nobody had to buy it. Mine was a general remark because most people hate Wastegate and don't trust them for a dime. I still trust Marriott.

I think I am going to sit back and wait until the end of the month. If Marriott hasn't announced anything by then, I consider it a rumor too but why did Marriott not stop these rumors a long time ago? It doesn't make sense.  :annoyed:


----------



## pacheco18

1643 posts on a topic no one knows anything about!

What a colossal waste of time!  LOL


----------



## PerryM

iconnections said:


> Sorry Perry that I mentioned Wastegate but I didn't read before that you had bought at Planet Hollywood. I am sure that the towers will get completed as the real estate there is too valuable. You haven't lost anything yet but I can imagine that you no longer trust salesmen after that purchase. There are other developers were nothing but lies are told and I can mention a few outside this country.
> 
> You did better on Maui, if you bought there too, as we went to Duke's and visited the Honua Kai Resort which is a beautiful resort on Ka'anapali Beach with a decent warm water swimming pool. When you take chances in life, you may end up a winner or a loser.
> 
> Perry believed in Planet Hollywood or he wouldn't have bought there. He shared his opinion freely on TUG as I just Googled the thread but nobody had to buy it. Mine was a general remark because most people hate Wastegate and don't trust them for a dime. I still trust Marriott.
> 
> I think I am going to sit back and wait until the end of the month. If Marriott hasn't announced anything by then, I consider it a rumor too but why did Marriott not stop these rumors a long time ago? It doesn't make sense.  :annoyed:



I don't know if I've brought up the touchy topic of Westgate in the past 5 years - I stay away from it since so many here have such a negative feeling about them.

5 years is a long time to hold a grudge and I now assume that I'm not the focus of evil but Westgate.

Guys, if you hate Westgate so bad call the guy who owns the place and write an article or do something useful - dragging me into your fight maybe makes some of you feel good but nothing gets accomplished.

Again I ask folks, if you have a beef with Westgate take it up with them and tell us how you are doing in your fight.  Me; I don't want to get involved with your problems folks....


----------



## potchak

So what is the no more EOY's being sold by Marriott mean for those of us trying to resell our EOY unit through Marriott? Any thoughts?


----------



## dougp26364

pacheco18 said:


> 1643 posts on a topic no one knows anything about!
> 
> What a colossal waste of time!  LOL



One of the best posts on this thread.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Marriott's just doing this to enrich their stockholders - I don't find fault with that at all.
> 
> Legally they probably will decrease my "worth" of our Gold Summit Watch - I don't like it, but I can't do anything about it.
> 
> 2 weeks and we will know a lot more - we will see if the salesrep was right:
> 
> "And you will love it".



I'm not sure I will love it. I may either be forced to stay were I am (we own two developer EOY weeks and use our one EY week rather than exchange) or, even if my EOY weeks can go into the program, it might not be something I like. If it's a trust based ownership where I have to give up my deeds, I'll have to think long and hard before acting. 

Two more weeks. That seems like forever the way this thread is going. Three more weeks and we'll be at the Marriott in Breckenridge. That will be the first big decision for us. If they have a sales force there (I think that one's been sold out for a long time) do we go listen and risk starting the clock (assuming they give us a deadline to think about it) or do we wait until we get to our home resort at Ocean Pointe, where Marriott is still actively selling Oceana Palms. 

Decisions, decisions. To possibly be one of the first to hear it out of sit back and let others go first, then digest and prepare questions for the time when it's our turn. I'm leaning towards waiting to see what other post, forumalate my concerns and questions, then sit down and talk.


----------



## PerryM

*Shock and awe in the Marriott camp...*



dougp26364 said:


> I'm not sure I will love it. I may either be forced to stay were I am (we own two developer EOY weeks and use our one EY week rather than exchange) or, even if my EOY weeks can go into the program, it might not be something I like. If it's a trust based ownership where I have to give up my deeds, I'll have to think long and hard before acting.
> 
> Two more weeks. That seems like forever the way this thread is going. Three more weeks and we'll be at the Marriott in Breckenridge. That will be the first big decision for us. If they have a sales force there (I think that one's been sold out for a long time) do we go listen and risk starting the clock (assuming they give us a deadline to think about it) or do we wait until we get to our home resort at Ocean Pointe, where Marriott is still actively selling Oceana Palms.
> 
> Decisions, decisions. To possibly be one of the first to hear it out of sit back and let others go first, then digest and prepare questions for the time when it's our turn. I'm leaning towards waiting to see what other post, forumalate my concerns and questions, then sit down and talk.



If Marriott dumps weeks and starts a trust based Points system this is about as big a topic one can image in the past 20 years.

Personally, I'm going to see how I can exploit all the events that will present themselves to us.  I can only imagine that there will be fleeting opportunities for those that have analyzed this and are prepared to act.

Most Marriott owners will simply be overwhelmed and just go with whatever Marriott recommends.

I can't tell you what I will do - after the shock and awe subsides there will be plenty to debate and, finally, to act on.


----------



## Swice

*Rumor de jour*

Rumor of the day (Friday June 4, 2010):

Was told Marriott is really working hard to keep everything under wraps for a couple of more weeks.

Management has reportedly told associates NOT to discuss it and the company appears to be serious.    An associate told me today a "sales person" in Orlando was fired a few days ago for discussing the new system during a "presentation."     

This associate was very careful with his/her words but indicated associates would learn more themselves in about a week.



High school french was a long time ago-- it's "du jour."


----------



## dougp26364

Swice said:


> Rumor of the day (Friday June 4, 2010):
> 
> Was told Marriott is really working hard to keep everything under wraps for a couple of more weeks.
> 
> Management has reportedly told associates NOT to discuss it and the company appears to be serious.    An associate told me today a "sales person" in Orlando was fired a few days ago for discussing the new system during a "presentation."
> 
> This associate was very careful with his/her words but indicated associates would learn more themselves in about a week.



That's akin to closing the barn door after the horses are out. Sales reps have been spreading the word/rumor for at least two years now.


----------



## Dean

pacheco18 said:


> 1643 posts on a topic no one knows anything about!
> 
> What a colossal waste of time!  LOL


I don't agree.  I think it's good to get everyone's perspective and even better to hash out some of the possibilities to get us all thinking.  Is it a lot of effort for minimal gain, absolutely, but I don't see it as a total waste.  



potchak said:


> So what is the no more EOY's being sold by Marriott mean for those of us trying to resell our EOY unit through Marriott? Any thoughts?


It likely means you are SOL when it comes to Marriott selling.  If they are not going to sell EOY points contracts and no longer sell weeks including resale, I suspect everyone who's currently listed with them will get a letter soon after any announcement.  Maybe there will be a grace period but I doubt more than to the end of the year.  I still bet you'll be able to convert but you may have to upgrade to do so, we'll see.



Swice said:


> Rumor of the day (Friday June 4, 2010):
> 
> Was told Marriott is really working hard to keep everything under wraps for a couple of more weeks.
> 
> Management has reportedly told associates NOT to discuss it and the company appears to be serious.    An associate told me today a "sales person" in Orlando was fired a few days ago for discussing the new system during a "presentation."
> 
> This associate was very careful with his/her words but indicated associates would learn more themselves in about a week.
> 
> 
> 
> High school french was a long time ago-- it's "du jour."


I assume you're serious though the wink at the end did give me pause.  It doesn't surprise me at all if this is what you were told as I've posted this very issue as a concern twice in this thread.  Still, it's unlikely a stellar employee were let go in this situation, if it happened, it was likely the last straw in a series of issues.  However, I have seen stellar employees let go on similar breeches in other fields.


----------



## Swice

*Employee was serious*

Yes, the employee telling me this was serious.

Obviously, I don't know details about what the associate said/spilled during the presentation.    I would imagine the associate was saying something that could have derailed a possible sale before the changes took place????


----------



## m61376

PerryM said:


> Most Marriott owners will simply be overwhelmed and just go with whatever Marriott recommends.



In another market I'd agree. But, the reality is that today money is tight for many people and I think many (perhaps most) people will think twice about shelling out thousands of dollars, IF that is the fee to join. 

I also think Marirott owners like the concept of owning deeded weeks, and whether that notion has any real benefit is immaterial. I am not so sure that people will jump to give up their deeds, again if that's part of the plan. And I also think people are used to having home resort priority and, again, especially for premium week owners, I think Marriott is going to find that a hurdle if they go to purely a trust based system.

Time, of course, will tell....


----------



## m61376

pacheco18 said:


> 1643 posts on a topic no one knows anything about!
> 
> What a colossal waste of time!  LOL



Actually, I am really glad I've wasted the time in this thread. Besides the entertainment aspect  , I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of Perry's prognostications come to fruition, and that there were some early sign on bonuses. I feel like I've learned enough to be able to evaluate the program to see how it would work for us. I appreciate the insight others have given and, even though some of the suggestions may have been far fetched, overall they will help when we have to really analyze what's being offered.


----------



## ricki999

dougp26364 said:


> I eventually recieved notification by E-mail. I'd imagine all you would need to do is call MVCI and you'll be directed to the telephone sales dept.





> Originally Posted by Fletch
> Doug,
> 
> The reason that thier EOY weeks are cheap is they have come out and said they dont convert in the new system so anyone with EOY's is SOL.
> I know what you are saying but this is what MVCI has said !



Confused.  Did MVCI, the company, make an announcement that EOY will not trade into the new system or was this information from an MVCI employee providing insight into the new system?


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> In another market I'd agree. But, the reality is that today money is tight for many people and I think many (perhaps most) people will think twice about shelling out thousands of dollars, IF that is the fee to join.
> 
> I also think Marirott owners like the concept of owning deeded weeks, and whether that notion has any real benefit is immaterial. I am not so sure that people will jump to give up their deeds, again if that's part of the plan. And I also think people are used to having home resort priority and, again, especially for premium week owners, I think Marriott is going to find that a hurdle if they go to purely a trust based system.
> 
> Time, of course, will tell....



I think tuggers like the idea of owning deeded weeks. I've spoken with so many clueless timeshare owners over the years I'm not so certain John Q. Public will think of much past all the bells and whistle's any new points program, trust or deeded, will thow at them. 

I do agree about the cost. In a tight economy, even all the bells and whistle's in the world won't pry open a checkbook far enough to dump thousands more into something that's already cost the owner thousands of dollars. If the price is in the hundreds I see more people jumping despite giving up their deed.


----------



## dougp26364

ricki999 said:


> Confused.  Did MVCI, the company, make an announcement that EOY will not trade into the new system or was this information from an MVCI employee providing insight into the new system?



Former employee. 

No acknowledgement has been made from Marriott that there is even a new program in the works.


----------



## PerryM

*Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat...*



m61376 said:


> In another market I'd agree. But, the reality is that today money is tight for many people and I think many (perhaps most) people will think twice about shelling out thousands of dollars, IF that is the fee to join.
> 
> I also think Marirott owners like the concept of owning deeded weeks, and whether that notion has any real benefit is immaterial. I am not so sure that people will jump to give up their deeds, again if that's part of the plan. And I also think people are used to having home resort priority and, again, especially for premium week owners, I think Marriott is going to find that a hurdle if they go to purely a trust based system.
> 
> Time, of course, will tell....



In a trust based Points system the Platinum and above owners in Hawaii will gladly see a decrease in their MFs.  In Branson Missouri those folks will see their MFs go up slightly.

But just like Lance Burton makes a Corvette fly most Marriott owners will be so overwhelmed and panic at the price increases the longer they wait that Marriott is shooting fish in an aquarium.  Hell, they're using a stick of dynamite to fish.  Marriott owners will be mesmerized at all the wonderful things promised them.

Just like Lance has you watching his right hand while his left hand moves one step ahead, so will Marriott choreograph a roll-out that will easily convince owners that even hesitating even a day means higher costs and fewer goodies.

There is only so much elasticity to how far they can go - that's what Marriott must hopefully reach before they do reach a wall of owners who don't have the money to spend.

I can't guess if they will make it but they must assume they can do this.


----------



## GaryDouglas

*Eenie meenie, chili beanie, the spirits are about to speak...*

When all is said is done, a lot more is said than done.


----------



## m61376

Well, we're just a little over a week away. I think it is a bit surprising that there hasn't been any official preview announcement. I would have expected an e-mail marketing blast- "in just 2 weeks Marriott will introduce major enhancements to your ownership" or the like. Yet mums still the word. 

IF Perry is right about the MF's, then I would foresee Branson owners balking, especially if they receive substantially lower point valuations. I think the average Marriott owners will believe whatever Marriott promotes wrt "ease of making reservations wherever and whenever" but I do think in this economy especially cost of joining, MF's and what they are getting relative to everyone else will be a big consideration for people. I'm not so sure that most owners are unsophisticated enough just to go with the flow, and their scrutiny will increase with the membership fee. 

A program akin to the Asia Pacific program, forgetting about the 5K nut to crack, I think will be a hard sell here. Maybe I am wrong, but those Platinum Manor Club, Orlando, Branson, etc. week owners like getting their 2BR exchanges into other premium weeks like Hawaii, ski weeks, Aruba, summer HH and NCV, Plat. Caribbean weeks, etc.. In the AP program even a Waiohai owner couldn't exchange for a Ko'Olina unit in a like for like basis (size/length of stay) unless they borrowed or added points from elsewhere. I'm not so sure that owners of what they consider great weeks are going to be smiling after they see the value Marriott puts on their weeks. I think Marriott is going to need to be able to convince folks that the valuations make sense, because IF Marriott embraces the same type of wide point variability as in the AP program I think a lot of owners are going to be turned off because they are certain their week should have been awarded more points.

Several methods for awarding points have been suggested. IF they are simply tied to the number of reward points a week can trade for, then owners at older resorts (many of which have been refurbished, and all of which have been maintained, at the expense of the owners) will likely feel slighted because you could have higher demand and premium weeks valued lower just because they are older. For example, are the reward point valuations currently given for developer owners trading in their weeks at the HH resorts all the same? The same argument can be made if they are tied to the initial pricing; inflation shouldn't determine valuations. If they are made pretty uniform across the board (as I believe HGVC mostly does) then people who shelled out 40-80K for a week are going to resent getting the same or similar points as people who bought less expensive weeks. The only reasonable method I can see that reflects market demand (which is what the points value should reflect) is if the point valuations are based on average rental rates for the season, which Marriott can easily calculate. IF they do that, then I think people would, perhaps grudgingly in some cases, have to acknowledge that at least Marriott was objectively ascribing values. I can't think of any other objective reflection of market demand (and isn't value a reflection of market demand?). The only other reflection of market demand is, or course, purchase price- but that also reflects the time of sale, where rental reflect relative demand across the board in the same frame of time.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think most owners will look at two things very carefully- what it will cost them (which means the fee to join and how it will impact their MF's) and what it will get them (and the number of points assigned is a biggie here). And Marriott has the daunting task of convincing those that fall at the short end of the stick, or get less than they thought they should (which, given human nature, will likely be many if not most people) that they are, in fact, getting their fair share.


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning...

Three simple questions to be asked!!!

1) What will this cost to join?
2) What will the MF's be???
3) What can I get?? a.k.a THE "CHART" (point values/unit)

the answers will determine the converters from the non converters...


----------



## erm

*Florida Club*

I haven't seen any discussion in this thread about how Marriott might handle the Florida Club in their new system.  Any thoughts?  This may not even be a consideration for me since I bought EOY private sale.


----------



## m61376

erm said:


> I haven't seen any discussion in this thread about how Marriott might handle the Florida Club in their new system.  Any thoughts?  This may not even be a consideration for me since I bought EOY private sale.



I think it would naturally fall by the wayside. Owners will likely get assignments based on their owned property and would have internal trading through Marriott not just for 5 other Florida properties, but throughout the system. The only difference is it won't just be simple trades, but there will be relative costs between properties (assuming variable point assignments).


----------



## Cobra1950

Well of course for anyone going away from fee simple ownership of your unit, I am comfortable that whatever points value Marriott assigns to anything will be good for a limited time, then "inflation" will take over as it has both with Marriott the last few years on what point are worth with their properties (a whole lot less than they were).
     Of course we all have to wait and see but in the end will probably be a sucker's bet at Marriott's benefit over the next few years


----------



## Dean

Cobra1950 said:


> Well of course for anyone going away from fee simple ownership of your unit, I am comfortable that whatever points value Marriott assigns to anything will be good for a limited time, then "inflation" will take over as it has both with Marriott the last few years on what point are worth with their properties (a whole lot less than they were).
> Of course we all have to wait and see but in the end will probably be a sucker's bet at Marriott's benefit over the next few years


I would assume that there would be some type of lock on the points.  As a min, that the total points for the year at a given resort could not change though they'll have to retain some option to rearrange them if needed.



erm said:


> I haven't seen any discussion in this thread about how Marriott might handle the Florida Club in their new system.  Any thoughts?  This may not even be a consideration for me since I bought EOY private sale.


I don't know.  Certainly if you convert you'd lose the FL club but pick up a replacement that should do everything better and earlier than the FC.  The real issues though is what happens to those in the FC if they don't convert, that I do not know.  If the club goes away, the fee should as well.  I simply don't know if the FC is contractual enough to force it to continue though given that those eligible don't have a choice (is my understanding), it might be.


----------



## Asia2000

I know I talk a lot about the AP program, but that's about all I know.  In the AP program, the point values are guaranteed to stay the same forever.  The only shifting is for certain week #'s where a holiday may fall in a different week # for a certain year.  I am also told that any added properties will carry consistent values (meaning they would not squeeze out the old owners).  Of course, I have not seen this in an official contract form.

I would think the point values would be based on the demand average of your season at your resort (Plat, Silver, Gold).  If your resort has several high demand platinum weeks, then your platinum average would give you a higher point value versus a resort with lower demand platinum weeks.  Just do averages via the II TDI chart to get you close to the Marriott valuation.  Again, I'm only speculating.  We will see.


----------



## PerryM

*Hawaii - how to sell Points there?*

WorldMark can't sell their Points (Credits) in Hawaii - Hawaiians want to see specific deeds or Right to Use documents for each and every week/point in a Hawaiian timeshare - WM doesn't sell that way so they don't sell there - the big sales gallery they built in Kihei is full of moldy rugs.  (I'm not a lawyer but this is what I understand the law to be)

How will Marriott handle sales in Hawaii?  How does a trust sell there?

Disney is finishing their new resort there but the RTU's Points are tied to that timeshare and the Hawaiians are happy.

1 week until we find out...


----------



## dougp26364

Cobra1950 said:


> Well of course for anyone going away from fee simple ownership of your unit, I am comfortable that whatever points value Marriott assigns to anything will be good for a limited time, then "inflation" will take over as it has both with Marriott the last few years on what point are worth with their properties (a whole lot less than they were).
> Of course we all have to wait and see but in the end will probably be a sucker's bet at Marriott's benefit over the next few years



In every points system I've seen, once points are assigned to a unit, they never change. The biggest changes come when new properties are built. The newer properties often require more in points to trade into. But then again, that's sort of how it works with the weeks based system. Demand is high for the new resort and one needs more trade power to get the higher demand weeks. The difference would be that, over time, demand cools off as the new wears off. Thus weeks that were once hard to get become easier. I would imagine that Oceana Palms is somewhat difficult to get right now but Ocean Pointe may have become easier over the years. 

As to MF's in trust based systems. What is suppose to happen is that every unit week is pooled in the trust. All the MF's and expenses are pooled. The MF's and expenses are then divided by the number of points outstanding in the trust pool and owners are charged a flat fee per point. Thus, as Perry points out, those in high demand and high expense resorts benefit while those in lower demand and lower cost resorts are punished. 

In our case with DRI and Polo Towers, by staying in the deeded owner but member of the internal points program rather than joining the Hawaiian or even the US trust, my MF's are $500/year lower (two units) than if I joined one of the trusts. Needless to say I saw very little advantage to giving DRI my deeds and voting rights just to be able to book any resort in their trust at 13 months rather than 10 months. In this case, earlier booking for resorts in the trust was the only advantage I could see. It wasn't worth the increase in MF's IMHO. 

Will Marriott's be a trust based ownership? Will it be an overlay points program with deeded weeks backing the points? Will it be a combination of both? Who knows. We'll have to wait a couple of more weeks to find out. I'm hoping it's just a points overlay internal exhange program. I haven't been pleased with any trust based ownership I've seen so far.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> WorldMark can't sell their Points (Credits) in Hawaii - Hawaiians want to see specific deeds or Right to Use documents for each and every week/point in a Hawaiian timeshare - WM doesn't sell that way so they don't sell there - the big sales gallery they built in Kihei is full of moldy rugs.  (I'm not a lawyer but this is what I understand the law to be)
> 
> How will Marriott handle sales in Hawaii?  How does a trust sell there?
> 
> Disney is finishing their new resort there but the RTU's Points are tied to that timeshare and the Hawaiians are happy.
> 
> 1 week until we find out...



I think Worldmark has some other issues. DRI sells trust based ownerships in Hawaii on Kauai and Maui. DRI doesn't sell deeds with their trusts as far as I know. It's strictly a trust based ownership.


----------



## PerryM

*Hup - two - three - four....*



erm said:


> I haven't seen any discussion in this thread about how Marriott might handle the Florida Club in their new system.  Any thoughts?  This may not even be a consideration for me since I bought EOY private sale.



The Florida Club will probably join EOY owners on their march to extinction ...


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> I think Worldmark has some other issues. DRI sells trust based ownerships in Hawaii on Kauai and Maui. DRI doesn't sell deeds with their trusts as far as I know. It's strictly a trust based ownership.



That could very well be - just the scuttlebutt I heard for the moldy rugs in Kihei.


----------



## PerryM

*That crazy beach in front of the Maui Ocean Club is a warning...*



dougp26364 said:


> *In every points system I've seen, once points are assigned to a unit, they never change.* The biggest changes come when new properties are built. The newer properties often require more in points to trade into. But then again, that's sort of how it works with the weeks based system. Demand is high for the new resort and one needs more trade power to get the higher demand weeks. The difference would be that, over time, demand cools off as the new wears off. Thus weeks that were once hard to get become easier. I would imagine that Oceana Palms is somewhat difficult to get right now but Ocean Pointe may have become easier over the years.
> 
> As to MF's in trust based systems. What is suppose to happen is that every unit week is pooled in the trust. All the MF's and expenses are pooled. The MF's and expenses are then divided by the number of points outstanding in the trust pool and owners are charged a flat fee per point. Thus, as Perry points out, those in high demand and high expense resorts benefit while those in lower demand and lower cost resorts are punished.
> 
> In our case with DRI and Polo Towers, by staying in the deeded owner but member of the internal points program rather than joining the Hawaiian or even the US trust, my MF's are $500/year lower (two units) than if I joined one of the trusts. Needless to say I saw very little advantage to giving DRI my deeds and voting rights just to be able to book any resort in their trust at 13 months rather than 10 months. In this case, earlier booking for resorts in the trust was the only advantage I could see. It wasn't worth the increase in MF's IMHO.
> 
> Will Marriott's be a trust based ownership? Will it be an overlay points program with deeded weeks backing the points? Will it be a combination of both? Who knows. We'll have to wait a couple of more weeks to find out. I'm hoping it's just a points overlay internal exhange program. I haven't been pleased with any trust based ownership I've seen so far.



True, but they can be shifted around like the sand on the beach in front of MOC.

I took a tour at Club Intrawest in Whistler many years ago - all the sales reps sold was Christmas and New Year's weeks - they bragged about "The number of Points for a condo can't be changed".  All the salesreps talked about were the number of Points needed for the week and they just sold holiday weeks - never brought up the fact of thousands of other owners wanting the same exact thing.

Well Points can be shifted around to reflect supply and demand - that's what happened and about 5 years later those two weeks required about double the Points as when I toured.  The Points from mud weeks went to nothing and were shifted to holiday weeks which is what salesreps sold.

So will we have a "Beach erosion chart" for all Marriotts now?

Will day-one have Marriott owners happy but a year from then their purchasing power has decreased because of shifting Points?  Marriott, of course, has the answer - buy more points!

This is to be expected when one system handles both SELLING the Points and RESERVATIONS with those same Points.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> WorldMark can't sell their Points (Credits) in Hawaii - Hawaiians want to see specific deeds or Right to Use documents for each and every week/point in a Hawaiian timeshare - WM doesn't sell that way so they don't sell there - the big sales gallery they built in Kihei is full of moldy rugs.  (I'm not a lawyer but this is what I understand the law to be)
> 
> How will Marriott handle sales in Hawaii?  How does a trust sell there?
> 
> Disney is finishing their new resort there but the RTU's Points are tied to that timeshare and the Hawaiians are happy.
> 
> 1 week until we find out...


Marriott already sells points for HI as well as Wyndham, DRI, Shell and Hilton (likely others).  I left out Bluegreen because I don't think they actually sell points directly for the Kauai resort they are involved in but Jim can likely say for sure.  But selling in different legal markets is certainly a challenge with timeshares because you have to be licensed to sell in the given state of the person you're selling to OR you have to have them physically in a state you can sell to for any legal actions to take place.  With some states I believe they have rules/laws specifically for "vacation clubs" that are somewhat separate from timeshares.  Trust based timeshares would blur this distinction it seems to me as do, I know they do in FL.


----------



## m61376

Asia2000 said:


> I know I talk a lot about the AP program, but that's about all I know.  In the AP program, the point values are guaranteed to stay the same forever.  The only shifting is for certain week #'s where a holiday may fall in a different week # for a certain year.  I am also told that any added properties will carry consistent values (meaning they would not squeeze out the old owners).  Of course, I have not seen this in an official contract form.
> 
> I would think the point values would be based on the demand average of your season at your resort (Plat, Silver, Gold).  If your resort has several high demand platinum weeks, then your platinum average would give you a higher point value versus a resort with lower demand platinum weeks.  Just do averages via the II TDI chart to get you close to the Marriott valuation.  Again, I'm only speculating.  We will see.



Did you ever inquire as to why they had the relative value differences between the resorts? Was it based on anything concrete? Why was a Plat. Phuket week valued so much less than a Ko'Olina week, and for that matter, why weren't the Hawaii properties similarly valuated? Did you get the impression the values assigned were actually based on some objective factor?


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> True, but they can be shifted around like the beach in front of MOC.
> 
> I took a tour at Club Intrawest in Whistler many years ago - all the sales reps sold was Christmas and New Year's weeks - they bragged about "The number of Points for a condo can't be changed".  All the salesreps talked about were the number of Points needed for the week and they just sold holiday weeks - never brought up the fact of thousands of other owners wanting the same exact thing.
> 
> Well they can be shifted around to reflect supply and demand - that's what happened and about 5 years later those two weeks required about double the Points as when I toured.  The Points from mud weeks went to nothing and were shifted to holiday weeks which is what salesreps sold.
> 
> So will we have a "Beach erosion chart" for all Marriotts now?


They should have the ability to adjust to even out demand.  DVC has had several such adjustments over the past couple of years and one some time ago.  As a buyer, you need to know about these options and you can't count on the sales staff to fully inform you.  It comes down to you have to read the paperwork line by line.  CI is an extreme (but good) example because they do not have a home resort priority AND have resorts with a significant seasonal demand variability.  This is in part why I stated that Marriott really had to have at least some type of home resort priority and to get certain owners to convert, will likely need a season priority and possibly a view priority.

I own points at Paradise Village in MX which is a single resort that works on points.  You actually buy a view type, unit size and season.  All points package options are set to match a full week in each unit size, view and season.  The reservation period opens 1 Oct for up to 1 Dec of 2 years out.  For example, if I were to reserve my specified options this 1 Oct, I could do so as late as Xmas, 2012.  Once 1 Jan comes, anyone can reserve any unit available up to that same date.  Other specifics include that you have to prepay fees to use the points, there are also fees for cancelations, banking, borrowing and multiple reservations but they are fairly small and seem reasonable.  I'm not saying this is the model that Marriott should adopt but I am saying it is a good one from the eye of those that already own and want to convert to a points system.  It may be too complicated for Marriott system of resorts though there are potential issues and benefits to consider.


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> Did you ever inquire as to why they had the relative value differences between the resorts? Was it based on anything concrete? Why was a Plat. Phuket week valued so much less than a Ko'Olina week, and for that matter, why weren't the Hawaii properties similarly valuated? Did you get the impression the values assigned were actually based on some objective factor?


I would expect the points were a reflection of the market evalation for the underlying value, just like it would be for the prices of a weeks based system.  That doesn't necessarily mean it's accurate or workable, see Crystal shores list prices.


----------



## PerryM

Dean said:


> *They should have the ability to adjust to even out demand.*  DVC has had several such adjustments over the past couple of years and one some time ago.  As a buyer, you need to know about these options and you can't count on the sales staff to fully inform you.  It comes down to you have to read the paperwork line by line.  CI is an extreme (but good) example because they do not have a home resort priority AND have resorts with a significant seasonal demand variability.  This is in part why I stated that Marriott really had to have at least some type of home resort priority and to get certain owners to convert, will likely need a season priority and possibly a view priority.
> 
> I own points at Paradise Village in MX which is a single resort that works on points.  You actually buy a view type, unit size and season.  All points package options are set to match a full week in each unit size, view and season.  The reservation period opens 1 Oct for up to 1 Dec of 2 years out.  For example, if I were to reserve my specified options this 1 Oct, I could do so as late as Xmas, 2012.  Once 1 Jan comes, anyone can reserve any unit available up to that same date.  Other specifics include that you have to prepay fees to use the points, there are also fees for cancelations, banking, borrowing and multiple reservations but they are fairly small and seem reasonable.  I'm not saying this is the model that Marriott should adopt but I am saying it is a good one from the eye of those that already own and want to convert to a points system.  It may be too complicated for Marriott system of resorts though there are potential issues and benefits to consider.



Sure in a trust based timeshare this is mandatory - what works today may not work tomorrow unless "adjustments" are made.

This is my great fear with a trust - everything works fine on day-one and suddenly "adjustments" are needed to protect one Marriott owner from other greedy Marriott owners.

It's owner against owner with Marriott the referee and rule maker.  "Adjustments", like mind altering drugs, are needed to make it through the year....


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> True, but they can be shifted around like the sand on the beach in front of MOC.
> 
> I took a tour at Club Intrawest in Whistler many years ago - all the sales reps sold was Christmas and New Year's weeks - they bragged about "The number of Points for a condo can't be changed".  All the salesreps talked about were the number of Points needed for the week and they just sold holiday weeks - never brought up the fact of thousands of other owners wanting the same exact thing.
> 
> Well Points can be shifted around to reflect supply and demand - that's what happened and about 5 years later those two weeks required about double the Points as when I toured.  The Points from mud weeks went to nothing and were shifted to holiday weeks which is what salesreps sold.
> 
> So will we have a "Beach erosion chart" for all Marriotts now?
> 
> Will day-one have Marriott owners happy but a year from then their purchasing power has decreased because of shifting Points?  Marriott, of course, has the answer - buy more points!
> 
> This is to be expected when one system handles both SELLING the Points and RESERVATIONS with those same Points.



Thinking about shifting a little more, DVC recently did some shifting in how many points were required for certain days of the week for partial stays. However, the total number of points for any given week remained the same.

I believe that HGVC may have eliminated Bronze weeks at some resorts but, those Bronze week owners were elevated to Silver week owners and their points increased accordingly. With HGVC, you pay by the size of the unit and not the number of points. So a 2 bedroom bronze pays the same MF as a 2 bedroom Platinum.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> Sure in a trust based timeshare this is mandatory - what works today may not work tomorrow unless "adjustments" are made.
> 
> This is my great fear with a trust - everything works fine on day-one and suddenly "adjustments" are needed to protect one Marriott owner from other greedy Marriott owners.
> 
> It's owner against owner with Marriott the referee and rule maker.  "Adjustments", like mind altering drugs, are needed to make it through the year....


ANY timeshare reservation system is owner against owner to a degree, even in my example above, I'd be competing with other owners who own exactly what I do.  Technically this is no different with ANY points system.  The numbers and relative chances of you or I getting what we want may vary and I think the fear many here have is that they will have less chance of getting what we want in such a points based system because we've played the game well the way it was set up. Such adjustment options are really important to the health of a points based system because it allows you to actually alter and even out demand of a given time.  It is healthy for a resort to have a fairly even demand throughout the year.  Perry, my suspicion in your case is that your fear is not of the functioning of the system itself, but in your exchange options (they are separate), or lack of going forward.  While I too have weeks I own specifically for internal exchanging, it is not Marriott's responsibility to provide those options to you or I.  Such adjustment options are really important to the health of a points based system because it allows you to actually alter and even out demand of a given time.  It is healthy for a resort to have a fairly even demand throughout the year.



dougp26364 said:


> Thinking about shifting a little more, DVC recently did some shifting in how many points were required for certain days of the week for partial stays. However, the total number of points for any given week remained the same.
> 
> I believe that HGVC may have eliminated Bronze weeks at some resorts but, those Bronze week owners were elevated to Silver week owners and their points increased accordingly. With HGVC, you pay by the size of the unit and not the number of points. So a 2 bedroom bronze pays the same MF as a 2 bedroom Platinum.


One correction Doug, DVC did shift recently a fairly large reallocation which had to be done over 2 years due to the limitation of no more than 15% change per year.  However, points for specifics weeks can and did change, it's only the points for the entire resort that must remain the same (not even for a given unit size).  It's a little more technical than that but that gives you the end product.


----------



## PerryM

*I love toast in the morning...*



Dean said:


> *ANY timeshare reservation system is owner against owner to a degree, even in my example above, I'd be competing with other owners who own exactly what I do.*  Technically this is no different with ANY points system.  The numbers and relative chances of you or I getting what we want may vary and I think the fear many here have is that they will have less chance of getting what we want in such a points based system because we've played the game well the way it was set up. Such adjustment options are really important to the health of a points based system because it allows you to actually alter and even out demand of a given time.  It is healthy for a resort to have a fairly even demand throughout the year.  Perry, my suspicion in your case is that your fear is not of the functioning of the system itself, but in your exchange options (they are separate), or lack of going forward.  While I too have weeks I own specifically for internal exchanging, it is not Marriott's responsibility to provide those options to you or I.  Such adjustment options are really important to the health of a points based system because it allows you to actually alter and even out demand of a given time.  It is healthy for a resort to have a fairly even demand throughout the year.
> 
> ...



Not arguing about dog eat dog - that's how it's now for many Marriott reservations.

But, what I'm going to be looking at is very simple - is Marriott going to take into account existing supply/demand now so future adjustments are small or are they going to introduce a totally phony Points calendar designed to sucker owners in and requires HUGE shift in Points to reflect reality.

I can't guess what Marriott will do - 10 minutes with the Points charts should shed some light.

I'm assuming my Gold Summit Watch is toast in a new trust based system but who knows...


----------



## l2trade

Marriott sales staff must attend a mandatory meeting this week.  The employee I spoke with assumes it is related to the topic of this thread.


----------



## PerryM

*Chicken!*



Dean said:


> ...
> 
> One correction Doug, DVC did shift recently a fairly large reallocation which had to be done over 2 years due to the limitation of no more than 15% change per year.  However, points for specifics weeks can and did change, *it's only the points for the entire resort that must remain the same* (not even for a given unit size).  It's a little more technical than that but that gives you the end product.



Wow! Wow! Wow!

If Marriott only requires all Points for a resort to remain constant that means all kinds of games with Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Platinum Plus are possible.  Then studio, 1BR, 2BR, etc.  Then individual weeks.

Now that would be very clever on Marriott's part - favor Platinum today and when they snap up a bunch of Bronze weeks then favor Bronze and then Silver, etc.

Talk about the fox in the hen house, how about the fox designing and building the hen house, and then guarding the hen house.

Geez.


----------



## pharmgirl

PerryM said:


> Not arguing about dog eat dog - that's how it's now for many Marriott reservations.
> 
> But, what I'm going to be looking at is very simple - is Marriott going to take into account existing supply/demand now so future adjustments are small or are they going to introduce a totally phony Points calendar designed to sucker owners in and requires HUGE shift in Points to reflect reality.
> 
> I can't guess what Marriott will do - 10 minutes with the Points charts should shed some light.
> 
> Too funny
> This entire thread is guessing


----------



## PerryM

*Set your pressure cooker to "Detonate"....*



pharmgirl said:


> ...
> Too funny
> This entire thread is guessing



Thank you I try my best...

I don't know about some of you but I deal with unknowns all the time and have to make plans for them.  Stock market goes down - I do something, goes up I do something.  But I have spent 25 years now playing "what if" in order to make two simple decisions.

I will be very surprised if Marriott doesn't use all its past tricks to woo 400,000 owners into the new system - whatever it is.

We know their past sales tricks and pressure is a key component - "All these goodies are yours today but you must sign RIGHT NOW".

This same pressure will be applied on opening day and those Marriott owners who get word that day will be put into the same exact moment in time "Sign now or all the goodies disappear".

I don't know about many of you but I need to practice and play what-if games if I want to exploit any opportunities presented me.

To each their own...

P.S.
If Marriott introduces a trust based Point system there is NO bigger news in the past 20+ years they have been in existence.  I suggest many review their own situation and see if we have covered a similar situation here - it might shed some insight as to what to do.

Because all of you will be required to make a decision on the day of announcement.  It maybe as simple as "I'm EOY and SOL", or it might be "Marriott is offering me 100,000 MRPs to convert - do we convert, pay some money and come out ahead?" or it might be "My Gold week sucks and I'll keep it".

And knowing Marriott sales, delay in a decision will cost you....


----------



## Doc107

I am enrolled in a Marriott Webinar on June 16th to discuss "How to Exchange Marriott weeks throught II."  If they are bringing out a new program, perhaps that will make this an interesting Webinar.  Or is this just a standard request from Marriott that I've deleted over the years?

This is the text:

It is my pleasure to invite you to join fellow new Owners for a web based seminar (webinar) that will discuss how to exchange your Marriott Vacation Club week through Interval International to experience a new destination. 

Each year, over 40% of Marriott Vacation Club owners exchange their week(s) with Interval International, our exchange partner. This webinar will cover the different exchange methods, comparability factors, the Travel Demand index, and tips and tricks to help you comfirm your vacation with Interval International. I am confident that you will have a greater understanding of how to maximize your vacation ownership with Marriott Vacation Club after participating in our webinar.


----------



## aka Julie

Doc107 said:


> I am enrolled in a Marriott Webinar on June 16th to discuss "How to Exchange Marriott weeks throught II."  If they are bringing out a new program, perhaps that will make this an interesting Webinar.  Or is this just a standard request from Marriott that I've deleted over the years?
> 
> This is the text:
> 
> It is my pleasure to invite you to join fellow new Owners for a web based seminar (webinar) that will discuss how to exchange your Marriott Vacation Club week through Interval International to experience a new destination.
> 
> Each year, over 40% of Marriott Vacation Club owners exchange their week(s) with Interval International, our exchange partner. This webinar will cover the different exchange methods, comparability factors, the Travel Demand index, and tips and tricks to help you comfirm your vacation with Interval International. I am confident that you will have a greater understanding of how to maximize your vacation ownership with Marriott Vacation Club after participating in our webinar.



We got one of these e-mails a couple of months ago and we're not new owners by any stretch of the imagination.  Have owned 2 weeks (developer bought) for 10 years.  Our last purchase was in 2008 and was a resale.  I can't imagine this will cover the "new" program.


----------



## Doc107

I agree it's just regularly scheduled updates, but given it occurs on June 16th, makes it a little more interesting.  I wonder if they'll allow questions?!


----------



## Doc107

Both of my Marriott properties are re-sales so I am also a bit concerned with new policies.  Guess we just wait and see, then make individual decisions.  Fortunately, I purchased my 2 Marriotts for very low prices.


----------



## GaryDouglas

*The Quickening...*

Dear Monitor/s:

When Marriott finally makes the new system known, please make sure it is posted in a new thread. That way we will have one thread dedicated to conjecture of the unknown, VS the conjecture of the known.

Another thought, probably directed to Dave M, that the new program as stated by Marriott would be worthy of a new Sticky. Dave and maybe other monitors would add their interpretation of the implications of the new system. If this sticky were created, is there a way to set up tags or whatever Google uses to queue on so that all unsuspecting prospective and current Marriott owners could be directed to this sticky when doing searches? That way, we all could make more informed decissions. 

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free...


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> Not arguing about dog eat dog - that's how it's now for many Marriott reservations.
> 
> But, what I'm going to be looking at is very simple - is Marriott going to take into account existing supply/demand now so future adjustments are small or are they going to introduce a totally phony Points calendar designed to sucker owners in and requires HUGE shift in Points to reflect reality.
> 
> I can't guess what Marriott will do - 10 minutes with the Points charts should shed some light.
> 
> I'm assuming my Gold Summit Watch is toast in a new trust based system but who knows...


None of us know what will happen.  I doubt Summit Watch Gold will be toast, I actually suspect it'll fare good to very good on the other side, if you can feasibly get there.  So since it seems we agree on the fact that it's you against me (figuratively) now and will be with any new system, all the remains is the relative chances of a given reservation for a specific situation and whether we can/should change from one to the other.  I have no doubt that those on this thread will be able to make any system work once a participant but that doesn't mean the new system will work better or that it will be worse, we simply don't know at present.



PerryM said:


> Wow! Wow! Wow!
> 
> If Marriott only requires all Points for a resort to remain constant that means all kinds of games with Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Platinum Plus are possible.  Then studio, 1BR, 2BR, etc.  Then individual weeks.
> 
> Now that would be very clever on Marriott's part - favor Platinum today and when they snap up a bunch of Bronze weeks then favor Bronze and then Silver, etc.
> 
> Talk about the fox in the hen house, how about the fox designing and building the hen house, and then guarding the hen house.
> 
> Geez.


Don't go there with the conspiracy theory again, it undermines your credibility.  Do realize though that a points system has the ability to even out demand across even low demand times and this comes with a potential variable that we don't face now with Marriott, that it's POSSIBLE that the rules could have a built in likelihood of changing over and above the other long term timeshare variables.  It really depends on how they set it up.  If they link the points to a given unit type owned, they likely will not have this option as a possibility.  If they model it after CI and what they have already with the Asia points option where the points are held in trust and there is no home resort priority or even a more strict season type of priority, this would be very likely to be included IMO.  And if they do, it's likely they will have new resorts and those still in active sales with a sizable inventory with this option and those that are nearly or sold out, set up a different way.  

Another possibility is they could actually open it up for a vote at each resort they decide to include and I suspect it would require a super majority (? 60 or 66.6%) of the actual owners (not just those that vote) to make such a change.    BTW, I don't think we've discussed the possibility very much, but it's possible that certain seasons won't even be included and possible that a couple of resorts won't be included at all (HP, SP, VAIL, ? Monarch).  IF that happens anyone that owns there should sell as fast as they can because that makes my prediction that any resorts not included will depart from Marriott at some point in the not too distant future (when management contracts are up) almost a certainty.


----------



## PerryM

*No Soliciting Allowed!*



Dean said:


> None of us know what will happen.  I doubt Summit Watch Gold will be toast, I actually suspect it'll fare good to very good on the other side, if you can feasibly get there.  So since it seems we agree on the fact that it's you against me (figuratively) now and will be with any new system, all the remains is the relative chances of a given reservation for a specific situation and whether we can/should change from one to the other.  I have no doubt that those on this thread will be able to make any system work once a participant but that doesn't mean the new system will work better or that it will be worse, we simply don't know at present.
> 
> Don't go there with the conspiracy theory again, it undermines your credibility.  Do realize though that a points system has the ability to even out demand across even low demand times and this comes with a potential variable that we don't face now with Marriott, that it's POSSIBLE that the rules could have a built in likelihood of changing over and above the other long term timeshare variables.  It really depends on how they set it up.  If they link the points to a given unit type owned, they likely will not have this option as a possibility.  If they model it after CI and what they have already with the Asia points option where the points are held in trust and there is no home resort priority or even a more strict season type of priority, this would be very likely to be included IMO.  And if they do, it's likely they will have new resorts and those still in active sales with a sizable inventory with this option and those that are nearly or sold out, set up a different way.
> 
> *Another possibility is they could actually open it up for a vote at each resort they decide to include and I suspect it would require a super majority (? 60 or 66.6%) of the actual owners (not just those that vote) to make such a change.*    BTW, I don't think we've discussed the possibility very much, but it's possible that certain seasons won't even be included and possible that a couple of resorts won't be included at all (HP, SP, VAIL, ? Monarch).  IF that happens anyone that owns there should sell as fast as they can because that makes my prediction that any resorts not included will depart from Marriott at some point in the not too distant future (when management contracts are up) almost a certainty.



I'll use your own words:
*"Don't go there with the conspiracy theory again, it undermines your credibility"*

In my wildest imagination I can't see Marriott opening up voting in any way for any reason.  If Marriott wanted input they had 4 years to solicit our opinions - I've not heard a peep from them.

No focus groups, no webinars, not even a phone call - just the salesrep "Better not buy resale our you'll be sorry".


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> I'll use your own words:
> *"Don't go there with the conspiracy theory again, it undermines your credibility"*
> 
> In my wildest imagination I can't see Marriott opening up voting in any way for any reason.  If Marriott wanted input they had 4 years to solicit our opinions - I've not heard a peep from them.
> 
> No focus groups, no webinars, not even a phone call - just the salesrep "Better not buy resale our you'll be sorry".


I'm not saying they will, only that it's possible and it's the only way I see they could convert over resorts that are sold out to a true trust based generic system.  They could still convert the segments for those that have converted if they signed up for it but not completely if they match dues to points rather than dues to a week/season.  And pointing out that there would be pretty stringent requirements to convert an entire existing resort, I'm just not sure what the level of requirement is and I'm too lazy to go digging through my POS info for any of my resorts to check it out.


----------



## JimIg23

They sent out an email questionaire a year ago asking how much we would pay to buy into a point system........


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Wow! Wow! Wow!
> 
> If Marriott only requires all Points for a resort to remain constant that means all kinds of games with Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Platinum Plus are possible.  Then studio, 1BR, 2BR, etc.  Then individual weeks.
> 
> Now that would be very clever on Marriott's part - favor Platinum today and when they snap up a bunch of Bronze weeks then favor Bronze and then Silver, etc.
> 
> Talk about the fox in the hen house, how about the fox designing and building the hen house, and then guarding the hen house.
> 
> Geez.



Of note, DVC is the only points based reservation system I know to have ever done this and, it makes me less inclined to purchase from them. When I make a purchase, I'm looking at usage in specific timeframes for that resort. Should Marriott allow themselves the leasure of changing the point requirements for me to go to that resort during the specific timeframe I purchased it will be thanks but no thanks.

My big concern should this be a part of Marriott's points package is my ownership at Ocean Pointe. We bought Silver season specifically to use in either November or December. Oceana Palms 1 mile north has no such thing as Silver season. Marriott would need to assure me, in writing, that the points for specific weeks can never change or, they'll need to upgrade me in season so that I can still get the weeks I want. A few of those Silver season weeks are platinum at Oceana Palms. I'll be VERY interested to see how they structure the points at Ocean Pointe.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Of note, DVC is the only points based reservation system I know to have ever done this and, it makes me less inclined to purchase from them. When I make a purchase, I'm looking at usage in specific timeframes for that resort. Should Marriott allow themselves the leasure of changing the point requirements for me to go to that resort during the specific timeframe I purchased it will be thanks but no thanks.
> 
> My big concern should this be a part of Marriott's points package is my ownership at Ocean Pointe. We bought Silver season specifically to use in either November or December. Oceana Palms 1 mile north has no such thing as Silver season. *Marriott would need to assure me, in writing, that the points for specific weeks can never change or, they'll need to upgrade me in season so that I can still get the weeks I want.* A few of those Silver season weeks are platinum at Oceana Palms. I'll be VERY interested to see how they structure the points at Ocean Pointe.



I think you'll have more luck if you use my secret PowerBall numbers that eventually will hit - in about 7.9 billion years...


----------



## BocaBum99

What happened to the old PerryM?  You know.  The one who loved point systems.  The old advocate of currency systems vs. barter systems?  Seems like he has taken a decidedly Carolinian turn to the dark side.  Who kidnapped PerryM?


----------



## PerryM

JimIg23 said:


> They sent out an email questionaire a year ago asking how much we would pay to buy into a point system........



Good god I hope you told them a very low number between $1 and $9...


----------



## Dean

dougp26364 said:


> Of note, DVC is the only points based reservation system I know to have ever done this and, it makes me less inclined to purchase from them. When I make a purchase, I'm looking at usage in specific timeframes for that resort. Should Marriott allow themselves the leasure of changing the point requirements for me to go to that resort during the specific timeframe I purchased it will be thanks but no thanks.
> 
> My big concern should this be a part of Marriott's points package is my ownership at Ocean Pointe. We bought Silver season specifically to use in either November or December. Oceana Palms 1 mile north has no such thing as Silver season. Marriott would need to assure me, in writing, that the points for specific weeks can never change or, they'll need to upgrade me in season so that I can still get the weeks I want. A few of those Silver season weeks are platinum at Oceana Palms. I'll be VERY interested to see how they structure the points at Ocean Pointe.


Perry mentioned Club Intrawest which I understand had a far greater alteration for some weeks.  Personally I want a system that runs efficiently and manages their resources.  To me it was DVC's responsibility and ? legal requirement to reallocated given their setup and the shift in demand over the years.  One of the reasons the shift was so large was they had put it off too long.  The info I had suggested they should have had enough information to plan the change from 1999 to 2000 and implement it in 200-2001 rather than 2009.  But they did likely go overboard in the weekend vs weekday adjustments and one must ask WHY.  They also will almost certainly have to adjust some seasons as well, esp early and mid December.

On your second point, it does give a dilemma for places like OP vs Oceana Palms and Lakeshore vs GV which have very different seasons for the same demand.  On a smaller scale even for the 2 weeks at HH that are Plat for BB and Surfwatch and Gold at GO.


----------



## PerryM

BocaBum99 said:


> What happened to the old PerryM?  You know.  The one who loved point systems.  The old advocate of currency systems vs. barter systems?  Seems like he has taken a decidedly Carolinian turn to the dark side.  Who kidnapped PerryM?



I love Points in an exchange system.

Doesn't sound like Marriott is thinking down this line.

If Marriott wanted a Points system it would take them one weekend 4 years ago to just contract with Resort2Resort and they would have it - 100% transplant and 100% workable and $199 to join and less than that per exchange.

Throwing out 20+ years of weeks and jumping into a trust-based Points system is a totally different matter.

I'm getting the feeling, from the rumors, that this is a total revamp of Marriott and one that will mean years and years of retraining 400,000 owners.

This I'm scared of...

P.S.
Marriott has a proven track record of devaluing MRP's - I take that as something that will cross their mind down the line.  In fairness, MRP's must keep up with exploding fuel costs by charging more for the same.

Assuming Marriott already has the new trust-based Point system ready to go the only decision on our part is to join or not join and that takes a lot of information which is missing right now.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> I love Points in an exchange system.
> 
> Doesn't sound like Marriott is thinking down this line.
> 
> If Marriott wanted a Points system it would take them one weekend 4 years ago to just contract with Resort2Resort and they would have it - 100% transplant and 100% workable and $199 to join and less than that per exchange.
> 
> Throwing out 20+ years of weeks and jumping into a trust-based Points system is a totally different matter.
> 
> I'm getting the feeling, from the rumors, that this is a total revamp of Marriott and one that will mean years and years of retraining 400,000 owners.
> 
> This I'm scared of...


To have a sales angle they need a complete revamp and they need control.  Maybe they've waited so long to try to get it right?  LOL, we'll see what they end up with.


----------



## PerryM

Dean said:


> To have a sales angle they need a complete revamp and they need control.  Maybe they've waited so long to try to get it right?  LOL, we'll see what they end up with.



Done right Marriott can incorporate their ENTIRE product line of goods and services in this Point system.

MRP's, Ritz-Carlton Destination Club Points, car rentals, airline tickets, and anything else they want to incorporate.

But the outcome of the above will lead to renting villas to the public and not available to us and that's the RCI Point route.

Like I said before a 3 stage implementation makes more sense:


Point oriented exchange club - 2 years
Trust-based timeshares using those Points - 2 years
Integration to other Marriott goods and services


----------



## BocaBum99

PerryM said:


> I love Points in an exchange system.
> 
> Doesn't sound like Marriott is thinking down this line.
> 
> If Marriott wanted a Points system it would take them one weekend 4 years ago to just contract with Resort2Resort and they would have it - 100% transplant and 100% workable and $199 to join and less than that per exchange.
> 
> Throwing out 20+ years of weeks and jumping into a trust-based Points system is a totally different matter.
> 
> I'm getting the feeling, from the rumors, that this is a total revamp of Marriott and one that will mean years and years of retraining 400,000 owners.
> 
> This I'm scared of...
> 
> P.S.
> Marriott has a proven track record of devaluing MRP's - I take that as something that will cross their mind down the line.  In fairness, MRP's must keep up with exploding fuel costs by charging more for the same.
> 
> Assuming Marriott already has the new trust-based Point system ready to go the only decision on our part is to join or not join and that takes a lot of information which is missing right now.



I see what Marriott doing as no different than every other developer who went from a fixed/floating week system to a points system.  The same.  What do you see differently?


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> Of note, DVC is the only points based reservation system I know to have ever done this and, it makes me less inclined to purchase from them. When I make a purchase, I'm looking at usage in specific timeframes for that resort. Should Marriott allow themselves the leasure of changing the point requirements for me to go to that resort during the specific timeframe I purchased it will be thanks but no thanks.
> 
> My big concern should this be a part of Marriott's points package is my ownership at Ocean Pointe. We bought Silver season specifically to use in either November or December. Oceana Palms 1 mile north has no such thing as Silver season. Marriott would need to assure me, in writing, that the points for specific weeks can never change or, they'll need to upgrade me in season so that I can still get the weeks I want. A few of those Silver season weeks are platinum at Oceana Palms. I'll be VERY interested to see how they structure the points at Ocean Pointe.


That concern would apply to other resorts as well. What about the owners at several resorts where Plat. seasons really are too long? Are you saying, for argument's sake, that if Marriott valued the Plat. weeks at NCV at 40,000 points and gave every Plat. owner 40,000 points, that they could then decide that the 10 or so premium weeks cost 50,000 points to book, and the other 10 weeks cost 30,000 each to book (I am not sure of the number of weeks, but am just using this as a rough example), so that the total number of points assigned to owners and the total points cost to book all the weeks equaled, but leaving owners without enough points to actually book the most sought after weeks in their owned resort unless they supplement them?


----------



## m61376

Dean said:


> On your second point, it does give a dilemma for places like OP vs Oceana Palms and Lakeshore vs GV which have very different seasons for the same demand.  On a smaller scale even for the 2 weeks at HH that are Plat for BB and Surfwatch and Gold at GO.



There are likely several other examples. Wasn't one of the Hawaii resorts initially sold as all Platinum (?Waiohai) and later sold with a 1-50 Plat. season and Plat. Plus for the holiday weeks. In Aruba, the Ocean Club is Plat. from 51-52 and 1-17, and the Surf Club next door has 4 Plat. Plus weeks during the same timeframe. I am sure there are several other resorts with similar disparities.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> Done right Marriott can incorporate their ENTIRE product line of goods and services in this Point system.
> 
> MRP's, Ritz-Carlton Destination Club Points, car rentals, airline tickets, and anything else they want to incorporate.
> 
> But the outcome of the above will lead to renting villas to the public and not available to us and that's the RCI Point route.
> 
> Like I said before a 3 stage implementation makes more sense:
> 
> 
> Point oriented exchange club - 2 years
> Trust-based timeshares using those Points - 2 years
> Integration to other Marriott goods and services


"Done Right" is a very subjective and personal issue.  What might be right for me, might not be for you.  What's reasonable from Marriott's standpoint might not be for many existing owners.  This will be all about the best compromise and there WILL be losers and we'll see some of them whine dramatically.  It does give them opportunities to link some of their products though my experience with timeshare points system is that it's not the core product that gets you but it is these other peripheral options where the smoke and mirrors comes in.  In many ways, I'm more interested in how (if) any new system interacts with II than anything else.  Do they let you pick the week to deposit for example.  For that matter, does II roll out their long rumored points program in conjunction with or within a few months of Marriott.  If not, does Marriott change back over to RCI.  Does Marriott join up with other points systems such as DVC's Buena Vista Trading Company which is a fully licensed exchange company or do they work with other systems such as Bluegreen does with Shell.  



BocaBum99 said:


> I see what Marriott doing as no different than every other developer who went from a fixed/floating week system to a points system.  The same.  What do you see differently?


Obviously Perry can speak for himself, however, I believe he answered this question previously by essentially giving two explanations (as I understood him).  One, that it's a change to the fundamental system that is already established and two, the length of time they've had their system in place made it unreasonable to change now.  Neither hold water IMO partly due to the issues you are reminding us of.  



m61376 said:


> There are likely several other examples. Wasn't one of the Hawaii resorts initially sold as all Platinum (?Waiohai) and later sold with a 1-50 Plat. season and Plat. Plus for the holiday weeks. In Aruba, the Ocean Club is Plat. from 51-52 and 1-17, and the Surf Club next door has 4 Plat. Plus weeks during the same timeframe. I am sure there are several other resorts with similar disparities.


Absolutely, I wasn't trying to be all inclusive, just adding a few examples and the best ones that came to mind plus a couple of others personal to me.  I suspect Platinum Plus will be handled special for this situation but we'll see.  Thinking about it from another angle, I think that the bigger issue isn't as much the ones I mentioned as it is between resorts of different areas.  LV and Orlando Platinum certainly aren't the same demand as HI or HH platinum.


----------



## PerryM

BocaBum99 said:


> I see what Marriott doing as no different than every other developer who went from a fixed/floating week system to a points system.  The same.  What do you see differently?



Won't see anything until release date..


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> That concern would apply to other resorts as well. What about the owners at several resorts where Plat. seasons really are too long? Are you saying, for argument's sake, that if Marriott valued the Plat. weeks at NCV at 40,000 points and gave every Plat. owner 40,000 points, that they could then decide that the 10 or so premium weeks cost 50,000 points to book, and the other 10 weeks cost 30,000 each to book (I am not sure of the number of weeks, but am just using this as a rough example), so that the total number of points assigned to owners and the total points cost to book all the weeks equaled, but leaving owners without enough points to actually book the most sought after weeks in their owned resort unless they supplement them?




It would be possible although unlikely. creating unequal points for the same season would upset a lot of owners. When weeks have been purchased under the current system, no one cared what week was assigned. One week was a good as the other since everything was floating. If Marriott suddenly valued one week over another and, considering no one had a choice in the matter, owners who were assigned weeks at random that have a lower value would have a serious beef with Marriott. 

Inventory control will be handled a little different. As it stands now, an owner who wants to exchange typically wants one of those strong summer weeks. They are under the impression they MUST have a strong week to get whatever they want in exchange regardless of how true it is. With points, it doesn't matter what week Interval gets. Points are points and they'll have a set trade value with Interval. Marriott will have contracted a cretain number of weeks of a determined quality. Otherwise, Marriott owners in the points system who actually want to stay at their home resort will have first pick of the prime weeks for personal use. Those weeks won't hit the exchange market with Interval. That's what's so nice about points programs. It's almost never a race to see who calls in first. Prime weeks get used by owners and not reserved to be given to Interval for exchange.


----------



## PerryM

*The kicker...*



dougp26364 said:


> It would be possible although unlikely. creating unequal points for the same season would upset a lot of owners. When weeks have been purchased under the current system, no one cared what week was assigned. One week was a good as the other since everything was floating. If Marriott suddenly valued one week over another and, considering no one had a choice in the matter, owners who were assigned weeks at random that have a lower value would have a serious beef with Marriott.
> 
> Inventory control will be handled a little different. As it stands now, an owner who wants to exchange typically wants one of those strong summer weeks. They are under the impression they MUST have a strong week to get whatever they want in exchange regardless of how true it is. With points, it doesn't matter what week Interval gets. Points are points and they'll have a set trade value with Interval. Marriott will have contracted a cretain number of weeks of a determined quality. Otherwise, Marriott owners in the points system who actually want to stay at their home resort will have first pick of the prime weeks for personal use. Those weeks won't hit the exchange market with Interval. That's what's so nice about points programs. It's almost never a race to see who calls in first. Prime weeks get used by owners and not reserved to be given to Interval for exchange.



Probably part of the negotiations with II just weeks ago covered the topic of how the new exchange system interfaces with II - because it has to.

There are many ways to do this but basically X number of Points is required to book a 2BR of any season in II.  Members do this and once in a while II goes to Marriott with those XXX Points and Marriott will turn over a basket of weeks of various sizes and II seasons.  You, the member/owner, have no say in this matter.

We will see how smart Marriott is negotiating with II.  WM did a super job for us owners, basically I do Request First exchanges, i.e. I don't give up one Point until a reservation is snagged and I accept it after the 24-hr rejection period.

For ALL 2BR units in II it costs me 10,000 Points which are ONLY deducted when a reservation is found and I accept it.  Then I have a few days to go get those Points from my account, or pay cash for it, or rent Points from other WM owners.

A 1BR is 9,000 and a studio is 8,000 and at 59-days or less it costs me just 4,000 Points of anything I snag.

But here's the kicker - I must put up a WM unit to use for the exchange and the largest we have to exchange is a 3BR and that's the Trading Power we use to snag a 2BR or less.  Basically I use 3BR WM in all my searches and make sure they start before the 59-day mark so even then I put up high trading power.

So I have lots of open II searches going on all the time and don't have the Points to satisfy all of them - I have time, throughout the year, to get them normally or to rent them from other WM owners.

Let's see how Marriott did representing we Marriott owners to II.  Did they do as good a job as WM or did they cave in and take the minimum for us?

A through, in-depth, analysis of II exchanges has to be part of your due diligence because you will want to exchange out of Marriott sometime, maybe lots of times.


----------



## bobcat

dougp26364 said:


> It would be possible although unlikely. creating unequal points for the same season would upset a lot of owners. When weeks have been purchased under the current system, no one cared what week was assigned. One week was a good as the other since everything was floating. If Marriott suddenly valued one week over another and, considering no one had a choice in the matter, owners who were assigned weeks at random that have a lower value would have a serious beef with Marriott.
> 
> Inventory control will be handled a little different. As it stands now, an owner who wants to exchange typically wants one of those strong summer weeks. They are under the impression they MUST have a strong week to get whatever they want in exchange regardless of how true it is. With points, it doesn't matter what week Interval gets. Points are points and they'll have a set trade value with Interval. Marriott will have contracted a cretain number of weeks of a determined quality. Otherwise, Marriott owners in the points system who actually want to stay at their home resort will have first pick of the prime weeks for personal use. Those weeks won't hit the exchange market with Interval. That's what's so nice about points programs. It's almost never a race to see who calls in first. Prime weeks get used by owners and not reserved to be given to Interval for exchange.



Do you want to trade in your deed for points in a trust system?.  This does not sit right with me. They can not force you to join the new system .I have a friend who has 2 summer weeks fixed on HH. He will not trade. I do not like points. Been  there, done that. Give me my week and leave me alone. Besides, timeshare co"s raise the points you need to book units. Now they raise the points and you do not have enough to book.  The Ocean Beach timeshares will have a higher points value I think. We are in very hard times. Do you want to pay more for your timeshare. If all Marriott owners  raise their vioce , no leave me along and will not pay you another cent. How far do you think Marriott can go.  Marriott are you taking notes.


----------



## bluesfan

Anticipated impacts to lock-off owners?


----------



## Asia2000

I think lockoff owners will not enjoy the same benefits they do now under points.  The only exception would be flexchanges.  If we can keep trading through interval, the usual ways, I think points will look less attractive.  Marriott will need to think of a way to make the lockoff feature, similar to what it is today.


----------



## dougp26364

bobcat said:


> Do you want to trade in your deed for points in a trust system?.  This does not sit right with me. They can not force you to join the new system .I have a friend who has 2 summer weeks fixed on HH. He will not trade. I do not like points. Been  there, done that. Give me my week and leave me alone. Besides, timeshare co"s raise the points you need to book units. Now they raise the points and you do not have enough to book.  The Ocean Beach timeshares will have a higher points value I think. We are in very hard times. Do you want to pay more for your timeshare. If all Marriott owners  raise their vioce , no leave me along and will not pay you another cent. How far do you think Marriott can go.  Marriott are you taking notes.



I'm not a big fan of trust based ownership. There's to much control given to the trust manager who is controled by the developer. 

We own in two points based systems. They are far superior in flexiblity and ease of internal exchange to the existing weeks based program Marriott offers. Inflation is a moot point in either points or weeks based systems. Newer resorts require more trade power, which is a hidden value, in weeks based systems. With points you can see the inflation. With weeks you can only guess. Weeks is a deposit and hope for confirmation. Points you know if you can make the exchange just by looking. 

Marriott is going to do this thing despite owners raising their voices. You have a choice. Stay as you are with deeded weeks or join the new points based internal exchange system. No one is going to be able to force you to give up what you have now. All they can do is offer you something new. It's up to you as to the worth of the new program.

I can tell you one thing. It's impossible to pass judgement on a program you haven't even looked seen. It's best to keep an open mind, look at the proposed change and then make up your mind. In every points based system I've seen, if you always use the week you own, there really isn't any advantage to changing how the unit is exchanged. If you don't exchange then the exchange system used doesn't affect you at all. 

I'll look at the program, listen to what they have to offer and then decide what works best for us. If they want us to convert our deeded weeks into some form of a trust, it's going to take a lot more study time. If it's simply a points overlay system with us keeping our deeds we'll be more open to the concept. I like points based internal exchange systems. They work for us. But if it's a trust based system I'm not do sure it will be in our best interest. 

Time will tell. Only a few couple of more weeks and we should start getting some answers.


----------



## Asia2000

m61376 said:


> Did you ever inquire as to why they had the relative value differences between the resorts? Was it based on anything concrete? Why was a Plat. Phuket week valued so much less than a Ko'Olina week, and for that matter, why weren't the Hawaii properties similarly valuated? Did you get the impression the values assigned were actually based on some objective factor?



m,

No, I never inquired about this.  However, I can only speculate (as usual) that it is completely based on demand and/or inventory.  The difference in the Hawaii resorts was that Ko'Olina did not guarantee an ocean view where Waiohai did (for more points).  Phuket seemed like the median resort (which would make sense as it is in the center of Singapore, Thailand and Hong Kong (seemingly where the majority of these programs were sold).

If the US point system resembles the Asia program, I can see two types of units holding much higher point values.  Platinum Plus Weeks and 3 bedroom units.  If you own either of these, I would think you have nothing to worry about.  If you own a 2 bedroom platinum, I would say your point value will be high enough as long as your Platinum TDI average is high versus other resorts.  It seems like Newport Villas and Palm Desert have higher averages (for platinum) than Orlando or Hawaii, simply because Orlando and Hawaii have very large Platinum windows.  For this reason my theory could be off.  Try telling a Hawaii owner that his property is worth less than Newport when his MFs are 50%+ higher.  Maybe not.

However, I think demand will rule.  Just like for people on the street buying hotel rooms.  The higher the demand, the higher the price.  For MVCI resorts, the higher the demand, the higher the point value of your week.  If the II TDI index is not an accurate gauge, then maybe street price averages for platinum/silver/gold weeks would be the barometer.

A switch to points has no doubt challenged the financial minds (the numbers freaks) within the Maryland headquarters.  I am trying to figure out if they think they will financially gain from new buyers or from existing owners.  Certainly, the best of both worlds would be the optimal situation for Marriott.  I'm sure everyone's bonus for 2010 and beyond will be riding on the success of this program.  They have one chance to get it right.

At this point, the program is finalized.  Now they just have to convince their employees that this is the best thing they have ever done.  Then, they have to convince the general buying public.  Then, they must convince the most discriminating group of all, the TUGgers.

Let the games begin.


----------



## dougp26364

I'm thinking this thing may be closer to the Ritz-Carlton program than the AP program. Fletch seems to think there will be no home resort advantage and that makes me believe this may be a trust based ownership. I'm pretty sure from the descripition I've seen that RC is a trust based ownership.


----------



## JimIg23

Asia2000 said:


> m,
> 
> No, I never inquired about this.  However, I can only speculate (as usual) that it is completely based on demand and/or inventory.  The difference in the Hawaii resorts was that Ko'Olina did not guarantee an ocean view where Waiohai did (for more points).  Phuket seemed like the median resort (which would make sense as it is in the center of Singapore, Thailand and Hong Kong (seemingly where the majority of these programs were sold).
> 
> If the US point system resembles the Asia program, I can see two types of units holding much higher point values.  Platinum Plus Weeks and 3 bedroom units.  If you own either of these, I would think you have nothing to worry about.  If you own a 2 bedroom platinum, I would say your point value will be high enough as long as your Platinum TDI average is high versus other resorts.  It seems like Newport Villas and Palm Desert have higher averages (for platinum) than Orlando or Hawaii, simply because Orlando and Hawaii have very large Platinum windows.  For this reason my theory could be off.  Try telling a Hawaii owner that his property is worth less than Newport when his MFs are 50%+ higher.  Maybe not.
> 
> However, I think demand will rule.  Just like for people on the street buying hotel rooms.  The higher the demand, the higher the price.  For MVCI resorts, the higher the demand, the higher the point value of your week.  If the II TDI index is not an accurate gauge, then maybe street price averages for platinum/silver/gold weeks would be the barometer.
> 
> A switch to points has no doubt challenged the financial minds (the numbers freaks) within the Maryland headquarters.  I am trying to figure out if they think they will financially gain from new buyers or from existing owners.  Certainly, the best of both worlds would be the optimal situation for Marriott.  I'm sure everyone's bonus for 2010 and beyond will be riding on the success of this program.  They have one chance to get it right.
> 
> At this point, the program is finalized.  Now they just have to convince their employees that this is the best thing they have ever done.  Then, they have to convince the general buying public.  Then, they must convince the most discriminating group of all, the TUGgers.
> 
> Let the games begin.



Have you heard of any EOY usage in the Asia Program?


----------



## urple2

When this system is finally released it will be great to get everyone's perspective on this.

I'm sure this info from all on here will help each other in making our decisions.


----------



## Dean

bluesfan said:


> Anticipated impacts to lock-off owners?


More flexibility for internal trading but less value.  Lost or decreased  ability to trade up in unit size by trading say a studio for a 2 BR.  If there's a home resort or similar priority, may need to reserve entire unit size to take advantage of it.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> I'm not a big fan of trust based ownership. There's to much control given to the trust manager who is controled by the developer.
> 
> We own in two points based systems. They are far superior in flexiblity and ease of internal exchange to the existing weeks based program Marriott offers. Inflation is a moot point in either points or weeks based systems. Newer resorts require more trade power, which is a hidden value, in weeks based systems. With points you can see the inflation. With weeks you can only guess. Weeks is a deposit and hope for confirmation. Points you know if you can make the exchange just by looking.
> 
> Marriott is going to do this thing despite owners raising their voices. You have a choice. Stay as you are with deeded weeks or join the new points based internal exchange system. No one is going to be able to force you to give up what you have now. All they can do is offer you something new. It's up to you as to the worth of the new program.
> 
> I can tell you one thing. It's impossible to pass judgement on a program you haven't even looked seen. It's best to keep an open mind, look at the proposed change and then make up your mind. In every points based system I've seen, if you always use the week you own, there really isn't any advantage to changing how the unit is exchanged. If you don't exchange then the exchange system used doesn't affect you at all.
> 
> I'll look at the program, listen to what they have to offer and then decide what works best for us. If they want us to convert our deeded weeks into some form of a trust, it's going to take a lot more study time. If it's simply a points overlay system with us keeping our deeds we'll be more open to the concept. I like points based internal exchange systems. They work for us. But if it's a trust based system I'm not do sure it will be in our best interest.
> 
> Time will tell. Only a few couple of more weeks and we should start getting some answers.



WOW!  I could have written this.

That means one of us is in trouble


----------



## aka Julie

*How will MVCI let us know*

OK, I've been keeping up with this thread and "soaking it all in."

So my question for the "experts" is how do you think MVCI is going to communicate the changes to all owners?  I'm sure it will be a lot to digest and wonder how comprehensive the announcement and communication vehicle will be.


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> It would be possible although unlikely. creating unequal points for the same season would upset a lot of owners. When weeks have been purchased under the current system, no one cared what week was assigned. One week was a good as the other since everything was floating. If Marriott suddenly valued one week over another and, considering no one had a choice in the matter, owners who were assigned weeks at random that have a lower value would have a serious beef with Marriott.
> 
> Inventory control will be handled a little different. As it stands now, an owner who wants to exchange typically wants one of those strong summer weeks. They are under the impression they MUST have a strong week to get whatever they want in exchange regardless of how true it is. With points, it doesn't matter what week Interval gets. Points are points and they'll have a set trade value with Interval. Marriott will have contracted a cretain number of weeks of a determined quality. Otherwise, Marriott owners in the points system who actually want to stay at their home resort will have first pick of the prime weeks for personal use. Those weeks won't hit the exchange market with Interval. That's what's so nice about points programs. It's almost never a race to see who calls in first. Prime weeks get used by owners and not reserved to be given to Interval for exchange.



While I agree that it is better for prime weeks to get used by owners than being reserved for deposit and trading in II, the owner who wants to trade for a prime property outside of Marriott and wants to maximize his/her trade power will, I am sure, disagree. Just look at the Starwood board at the posts generated when Starwood recently made those changes with some of their voluntary owners.

And, yes, I agree creating different point values to reserve in the same season would upset a lot of owners. But. IF Marriott reserves the right to tweak point assignments/costs in the future, what will stop them from making this tweak? While inherently unfair to owners, it makes sense to a certain degree based on demand and I could foresee them proffering that argument as a rationale, especially since it would help level out demand. I am not referring to an uneven valuation given to owners- all owners in a season must be given the same number of points. I am questioning whether, at some future date, Marriott could change the point cost to reserve- could they value a NCV Plat. week, for example, at 40,000 points, but charge 30,000 points to reserve the 10 less desirable weeks and 50,000 to reserve the 10 premium weeks, so that the net cost and the net allocation are the same, but owners may not have enough points purely from their owned week to reserve a week in their purchased season? Basically, how much latitude will Marriott reserve for future changes?

I agree with Dean- the bigger issue, of course, is the difference between different areas, and how Marriott will allocate points to owners of thee areas. I also think the uneven seasons at adjacent resorts will create an assignment problem, and, even moreso, the instances where Plat. Plus weeks were later added to the calendar but initial purchasers had access to those coveted weeks as part of their Plat. reservation.


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> the instances where Plat. Plus weeks were later added to the calendar but initial purchasers had access to those coveted weeks as part of their Plat. reservation.


Does anyone have a list of such situations.  I know they tried to do that with the OP OF building but backed down.  I know Waiohai was mentioned earlier I believe.  

While I realize it won't affect a large chunk of owners, I wonder how the current AP points owners will be incorporated.  My guess is if the systems are essentially the same they'll be rolled over for a small fee.  However, if the systems are totally different, as I expect, then they may be worse off than many of those trying to convert from weeks.


----------



## indyhorizons

dougp26364 said:


> Inflation is a moot point in either points or weeks based systems. *Newer resorts require more trade power, which is a hidden value, in weeks based systems. With points you can see the inflation. With weeks you can only guess. *Weeks is a deposit and hope for confirmation. Points you know if you can make the exchange just by looking.



Doug, The only comment I would make to this is, while this may be true, thru II, if you play your cards right, you might stumble on a great trade even with a weaker resort. It may be at 4am on Sunday morning, but I think for some of us, that's the beauty of the hunt.  And therefore it doesn't cost me anything more but time and patience, whereas the proposed new system might cost me money (on the front end-to join, AND on the back-end if/when I have to buy more points).  I realize that society thrives on convenience, (in this case, your example of points based system giving you instant gratification) and more and more companies exploit that. As long as I can continue to get decent trades thru II, so far, I am not convinced.  As you have said, time will tell...


----------



## m61376

Asia2000 said:


> m,
> 
> No, I never inquired about this.  However, I can only speculate (as usual) that it is completely based on demand and/or inventory.  The difference in the Hawaii resorts was that Ko'Olina did not guarantee an ocean view where Waiohai did (for more points).  Phuket seemed like the median resort (which would make sense as it is in the center of Singapore, Thailand and Hong Kong (seemingly where the majority of these programs were sold).
> 
> If the US point system resembles the Asia program, I can see two types of units holding much higher point values.  Platinum Plus Weeks and 3 bedroom units.  If you own either of these, I would think you have nothing to worry about.  If you own a 2 bedroom platinum, I would say your point value will be high enough as long as your Platinum TDI average is high versus other resorts.  It seems like Newport Villas and Palm Desert have higher averages (for platinum) than Orlando or Hawaii, simply because Orlando and Hawaii have very large Platinum windows.  For this reason my theory could be off.  Try telling a Hawaii owner that his property is worth less than Newport when his MFs are 50%+ higher.  Maybe not.
> 
> *However, I think demand will rule.  Just like for people on the street buying hotel rooms.  The higher the demand, the higher the price.  For MVCI resorts, the higher the demand, the higher the point value of your week.  If the II TDI index is not an accurate gauge, then maybe street price averages for platinum/silver/gold weeks would be the barometer.*


I think you are misinterpreting what TDI means. It just means the relative demand of different weeks within the same area over the course of the year. Thus, areas such as Newport Coast and Palm Desert, which have a vast difference in demand between certain weeks, will have a much higher TDI during certain weeks than others (so their Plat. average TDI would be expectantly higher). Areas which are prime travel destinations year around (like Hawaii, etc.) will have lower average TDI's because the season is year 'round and there are few weeks which are much, much more popular than others. A TDI of 120 in Hawaii or several other locations might have a much higher demand than an Orlando week with a TDI of 140 or 150; you cannot use TDI's for comparison purposes.

What I did see Marriott doing in the AP program was charging different points to exchange in II based on the TDI of the requested week, so that many Plat. owners would not even have the requisite number of points to exchange back into their owned resort via II for some of the more premium weeks in their season. I thought that was curious. 

I bolded what you said about street prices reflecting demand and, hence, value. I maintain that this is the only really objective means of fairly assigning values- because it is a system already in place which does reflect market conditions and treats all resorts on an equal footing, reflecting what they have to offer, rather than being influenced by date of construction. IF Marriott bases valuations on that, people would be hard pressed to cry foul that they weren't being given what they thought their unit was worth.


----------



## m61376

Dean said:


> Does anyone have a list of such situations.  I know they tried to do that with the OP OF building but backed down.  I know Waiohai was mentioned earlier I believe.
> 
> While I realize it won't affect a large chunk of owners, I wonder how the current AP points owners will be incorporated.  My guess is if the systems are essentially the same they'll be rolled over for a small fee.  However, if the systems are totally different, as I expect, then they may be worse off than many of those trying to convert from weeks.



I just remember references being made here and there about changes. The new Maui towers will be an interesting example too- some were sold as floating and some as fixed weeks. 

I would hope that the AP program and whatever new scheme Marriott introduces would be melded together. Otherwise- imagine 4 different sets of reservation systems for the resorts in the AP program (and any future resorts added to that program)! At least for the current resorts, there will still be deeded week owners in both the old systems and presumably point owners in both the new systems; future resorts would have 2 sets of point owners if the programs weren't combined. Imagine the limitations that would impose, especially on limited inventory weeks (such as OF, 3BR's, etc.).


----------



## m61376

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougp26364 View Post
Inflation is a moot point in either points or weeks based systems. Newer resorts require more trade power, which is a hidden value, in weeks based systems. With points you can see the inflation. With weeks you can only guess. Weeks is a deposit and hope for confirmation. Points you know if you can make the exchange just by looking. 





indyhorizons said:


> Doug, The only comment I would make to this is, while this may be true, thru II, if you play your cards right, you might stumble on a great trade even with a weaker resort. It may be at 4am on Sunday morning, but I think for some of us, that's the beauty of the hunt.  And therefore it doesn't cost me anything more but time and patience, whereas the proposed new system might cost me money (on the front end-to join, AND on the back-end if/when I have to buy more points).  I realize that society thrives on convenience, (in this case, your example of points based system giving you instant gratification) and more and more companies exploit that. As long as I can continue to get decent trades thru II, so far, I am not convinced.  As you have said, time will tell...



While in theory Doug is correct, that in the current trading system the inflation is just hidden, but still there, there have been so many posts here about people licking out and getting a trade that perhaps they shouldn't have gotten- or certainly did not have the trade power to get. Excess inventory of newer resorts has particularly been a bonus over the years.

We have to be prepared that a points system will largely prevent such uptrades, except perhaps during Flexchange. People who have become accustomed to maximizing their ownership outside of Flexchange, but with perseverance in searching II and perhaps a lot of flexibility, will likely come up short. 

Personally, I could accept that, but I would need to see that there was some real basis for the valuations, and not that they were arbitrarily assigned today and subject to change tomorrow at Marriott's whim. We bought into timeshares with the promise of pre-paid vacations, so Marriott's increased costs as a basis for point devaluation over time doesn't hold substance like it does with the perk of the hotel rewards program, in my opinion, of course. I want to be confident that my value won't relatively decrease over time; I don't want to see Marriott increase the point cost while valuations given remain stable.


----------



## Asia2000

JimIg23 said:


> Have you heard of any EOY usage in the Asia Program?



Every year in the Asia program you receive your set amount of points.  The minimum level of points you can purchase is a 10,000 point per year program.  This is how you can work your annual points.  You can save your points for two years from the time they are given.  In year #2 you can use the points from year #1, year #2 and even borrow from year #3 if you MFs are paid up.  Add all three years together to leverage your points for a big blowout stay.

Nothing is advertised as EOY, but it is assumed that you can go:
1.  Every year
2.  Every other year
3.  Every three years as long as your points do not expire (borrow from year one and year 3).

If you are a "bought from Marriott" owner, you can convert your two year old, unused points to Marriott Rewards points (3 MR points to 1 club point).  Not a good deal at all as even at this rate, your 3 MR points are worth about 50% of one club point.  Even at 5:1 it is still not a good deal.

If you are a resale owner, you simply lose the points if they are anything over two years old.  This probably would not be an issue, but could become tricky to manage when juggling ideas and strategies.  Say if you used 10,000 point flexchanges for two weeks leaving you points left over.  Well, if you only have 2 weeks of vacation, you could lose your leftovers.

They make you convert to MR points or lose the points because they do not want you to bank up large sums, possibly taking a large chunk of inventory for one year and throwing off the inventory balances (so they say).

I couldn't imagine Marriott not honoring EOY deeds/points.  After all, EOY is the perfect tool to pull people into the timesharing world (Marriott hopes you buy another EOY or another annual).  50% of their new business comes from existing owners or friends of existing owners.

They will just halve your point level (if you choose to go points).  I suppose the rub may be if you cannot use all of your points in two years.  It may require some more careful planning, but would not obsolete the product (using the Asia model).

Again, I think if you own Hawaii, any Platinum Plus or any 3 bedroom, you are loving this whole idea of points.  If you are not, I'm not sure.  It would be great to have some "leaked" details on this thread.


----------



## PerryM

*The bogeyman cometh....*



aka Julie said:


> OK, I've been keeping up with this thread and "soaking it all in."
> 
> So my question for the "experts" is how do you think MVCI is going to communicate the changes to all owners?  I'm sure it will be a lot to digest and wonder how comprehensive the announcement and communication vehicle will be.



I'm not expert but Perry and will try to answer your question:

If Marriott is about to release a trust-based Point system the learning curve for 400,000 is so large that I have no idea how Marriott will do it - that's their #1 problem; and I don't think this will bother them in the least.

This would be akin to chucking your cell phone and moving to another provider and cell phone and everything's written in Chinese; I mean everything - the screen, the audio, everything is Chinese.

If I were Marriott I'd realize this and just focus on scaring the hell out of the owners with a carrot and stick approach and just move forward with writing sales orders.

Let the owners to the dirty work for you by making them part of the scare tactics - members joining cause higher prices and fewer goodies and the word spreads.

"Price increase this Friday" will be back and probably be "Price increase in 15 minutes".

Just a guess on how salesreps and marketing guys would handle this huge problem - just ignore it and spread scare instead.

Hasn't that been Marriott's approach for 4 years now with the rumors of this system "Better not buy resale or the bogyman exchange system will get you".

Why would they change a successful tactic?


----------



## puckmanfl

Asia...

I own (2) 3 bedroom gv's plat. (orlando) and 3 eoy Hawaii's.  I understand why Hawaii would do well with the new system, but not really sure behind your logic of why the 3 bedrooms would fare as well.  Please help and explain this!!!

thanks...


----------



## Asia2000

I'm basing all of my logic on the Asia program.  Only one property has 3 bedroom units available for the Asia program.  It is the Marriott Empire Place - Bangkok.  Nice, but not a resort.  It's a new condominium type setup (maybe like MGC - Las Vegas - I have not been, but based on feedback and pictures, somewhat close possibly).

A 3 bedroom platinum goes for 47,000 points or about the same as a 2 bedroom platinum in Hawaii.  I'm guessing a 2 bedroom platinum at most resorts will be in the 32,000 point range if things are modeled after Asia.  Based on MFs, having Hawaii point values this much higher than the contiguous 48 MVCI resorts makes sense.

Also, if you want to exchange into a 3 bedroom platinum via II, it will cost 45,000 points.  A 2 bedroom platinum-plus costs 60,000 points.

This is why I say Hawaii, 3 bedrooms and Platinum plus deeds will like the idea of points.


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning...

Grand Chateau (vegas) has 3 bedrooms, I thought this was part of AP program???

puckmanfl


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning

Asia, if you are correct I will be a "happy" camper.  In 2004, I paid 24K (direct, spare me!!) for the 3 bedroom GV's while 2 bedroom plat Hawaii weeks were going for 35K.  The maintenance fees fro the 3 bedroom GV's are $250 less than the 2 bedroom plat hawaii!!!

as I have said earlier, the "CHART" will create some happy owners and some infuriated ones as well..

time will tell


----------



## Asia2000

Also, if you look at the point values of studios and 1 bedrooms, they equal 2 bedroom units, which would eliminate the upgrades unless you did flexchanges.  The other route would be not to convert to points, and just trade through II like you normally do.  However, if the point owners increase in number, you may have more difficulty getting what you want.

I hope when the program is released, that some clear cut decisions can be made by deeded week owners.  Meaning, here is the program, this set of people need to do this.  This set of people need to take this action, etc.  

But, I do not think it will happen that way.  Unfortunately, I think it is going to be confusing, and involve some kind of limited time offer.  I think Perry may be correct in some of the tactics and strategies used by Mr. Marriott.

Maybe different threads could be started for different types of owners, to keep mass confusion to a minimum.  I think it will take a lot of collective brain power to figure this one out (at least for the long term).  

If the new program was simple and clear cut, they would have leaked details long ago.  But it obviously involves top secrecy by all employees and intense sales rep training.  As the buyer or consumer, this does not encourage me.  

No games.  Just tell us what it is so we can plan our vacation worlds accordingly.


----------



## Asia2000

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> Grand Chateau (vegas) has 3 bedrooms, I thought this was part of AP program???
> 
> puckmanfl



Yes sir, you are correct.  MGC is part of the direct Asia program, but I think you can only book one or two bedrooms directly through Marriott.  I believe anything larger has to go through II which will cost 45,000 points (platinum) and a $99 transfer fee.  A platinum-plus 3 bedroom will cost 85,000 points.  The Grand-Daddy of MVCI.


----------



## puckmanfl

good afternoon...

Here is my "crystal ball" look....  
Have to go with Perry on this one!!!

MVCI needs to make this look as good as possible on the initial "IPO".  ALL unsold inventory will be put into the points system asap...  The "bennies" for conversion will be plentiful at first and be a bit "biased" towards the owners of higher end weeks.  This is to ensure some inventory of these properties.  I believe that we will all be playing "Beat the clock" as there will be pressure to get the goodies by playing "early bird".  The goal will to get "converters" by making it "dicey" to do internal exchanges via II.  

Early on it will look great and perhaps "cheap" but after months (probably years) the "fine print" will kick in and the "devaluation" of the "enhancements" will start..


----------



## DanCali

dougp26364 said:


> I'm thinking this thing may be closer to the Ritz-Carlton program than the AP program. Fletch seems to think there will be no home resort advantage and that makes me believe this may be a trust based ownership. I'm pretty sure from the descripition I've seen that RC is a trust based ownership.



And how did the RC program work out for marriott?


----------



## Cindala

m61376 said:


> Quote:.... there have been so many posts here about people lucking out and getting a trade that perhaps they shouldn't have gotten- or certainly did not have the trade power to get. Excess inventory of newer resorts has particularly been a bonus over the years.
> 
> We have to be prepared that a points system will largely prevent such uptrades, except perhaps during Flexchange. People who have become accustomed to maximizing their ownership outside of Flexchange, but with perseverance in searching II and perhaps a lot of flexibility, will likely come up short.



Personally I think this is exactly what will happen. As owners of Gold at Grande Vista, we have exchanged up into Platinum season each year. I think these opportunities will disappear with the new points system. It may take me 2 or 3 years of points to get what I use to get with one week each year, plus I will have to pay for this privilege? (One vacation a year vs. one vacation every 2 or 3 years, plus $$$.) 

So how is Marriott going to get me to join this new points program when it will give me less trading strength?  

It will be interesting to see how they will avoid the separation of the Platinums from the Gold, (and Silvers and Bronzes for that matter);those who stand to benefit from those who most likely won't.


----------



## DanCali

m61376 said:


> I bolded what you said about street prices reflecting demand and, hence, value. I maintain that this is *the only really objective means of fairly assigning values*- because it is a system already in place which does reflect market conditions and treats all resorts on an equal footing, reflecting what they have to offer, rather than being influenced by date of construction. IF Marriott bases valuations on that, people would be hard pressed to cry foul that they weren't being given what they thought their unit was worth.



Would you say the same thing if you owned in Orlando?

Is anyone on this board truly "objective"? We all own somewhere and all have some interests regarding our ownership...


----------



## AwayWeGo

*I Resemble That Remark.*




DanCali said:


> Is anyone on this board truly objective?


I don't pretend to objectivity. 

I just aim for honesty & consistency -- those, plus whatever open-mindedness I can summon up. 

Mainly, though, I try to have fun.  

I mean, shux, timeshares are for fun so TUG-BBS should mainly be for fun also. 

Is this a great web site or what ? 

_Full Disclosure*:*_  I own 2 Orlando timeshares -- well, 1½ actually because 1 is every-year & the other is just EEY. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## DanCali

AwayWeGo said:


> I don't pretend to objectivity.
> 
> I just aim for honesty & consistency -- those, plus whatever open-mindedness I can summon up.
> 
> Mainly, though, I try to have fun.
> 
> I mean, shux, timeshares are for fun so TUG-BBS should mainly be for fun also.
> 
> Is this a great web site or what ?
> 
> _Full Disclosure*:*_  I own 2 Orlando timeshares -- well, 1½ actually because 1 is every-year & the other is just EEY.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



I'm all about having fun - even kept up with the 1740 posts so far despite having a full time job... I also learned a lot from many, many posters.

I just don't see how someone can say there is a "truly objective means of assessing value," especially when they are an owner. I also don't think Marriott will be objective in assessing value unless the objective is how to sell the most points in the future (pun intended).

If there is anyone relatively "objctive" here it's probably II since they are not an owner or a developer. If they say a 1BR in the CA desert in March is worth a 2BR in Hawaii in October, I assume they get a pretty good picture of the supply and demand and know better than me.

And for the record, I don't own in the CA desert or Hawaii...


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> I bolded what you said about street prices reflecting demand and, hence, value. I maintain that this is the only really objective means of fairly assigning values- because it is a system already in place which does reflect market conditions and treats all resorts on an equal footing, reflecting what they have to offer, rather than being influenced by date of construction. IF Marriott bases valuations on that, people would be hard pressed to cry foul that they weren't being given what they thought their unit was worth.


I can't see street prices being representative because there is no real standard (see ebay) and because the prices right now are so low that they would not do anything rather than use these prices as a gauge.  They have ALREADY valued each resort and week currently in sales.  It is not a difficult conversion to take that info and mesh it into some type of price per point.  If you has no home resort priority and points are points, you just take them all and average them then add 10-20% or more.  That's one area I do agree with Perry, that each point sold is either a high demand point in the eyes of the buyer OR a point slated for when/where that buyer wants to use it.  It's even easier if you keep the underlying view/unit season/etc in place.  As much as anything else, I'm interested in how the dues will be calculated.



Cindala said:


> So how is Marriott going to get me to join this new points program when it will give me less trading strength?
> 
> It will be interesting to see how they will avoid the separation of the Platinums from the Gold, (and Silvers and Bronzes for that matter);those who stand to benefit from those who most likely won't.


And even more to me, how will they determine the differences between the resorts.  My guess is the main way they'll get  you interested is by taking away options you have now including internal exchange priority and a significant reduction in inventory.  As for say a GV 3 BR compared to a HI 2 BR, I'd expect GV 3 BR to be worth somewhat less points as a reflection of the prices charged and the relative demand.  How much less is really the question in my mind but I'd guess a 2 BR GV about half a 2 BR HI and a 3 BR GV somewhere about half way in between.



DanCali said:


> Would you say the same thing if you owned in Orlando?
> 
> Is anyone on this board truly "objective"? We all own somewhere and all have some interests regarding our ownership...


We all have our bias but I'm with Alan in that honesty and relative objectivity are my goal, sometimes to a fault some would say.  I try to see the business side of these decisions as well, an areas where I think many fall down on these type of issues.  I look at these issues very cold and calculating and I can absolutely separate out what I think will and should happen from what would be best for me.  It is my opinion that many in timesharing can't look beyond their emotional involvement and personal preferences to see the big picture in ANY objective way.  Mark my words, we'll see plenty of posts of people complaining about the personal affect without any acknowledgement of Marriott's right to do so, heck, we already are.  I can absolutely respect someone who says they're upset at how a given change affects them but they realize the companies position.   I cannot respect one who says, how dare they make changes that are different than what I want and what the rules were when they joined.


----------



## PerryM

*Betting on fairness...*



DanCali said:


> I'm all about having fun - even kept up with the 1740 posts so far despite having a full time job... I also learned a lot from many, many posters.
> 
> *I just don't see how someone can say there is a "truly objective means of assessing value," especially when they are an owner.* I also don't think Marriott will be objective in assessing value unless the objective is how to sell the most points in the future (pun intended).
> 
> If there is anyone relatively "objctive" here it's probably II since they are not an owner or a developer. If they say a 1BR in the CA desert in March is worth a 2BR in Hawaii in October, I assume they get a pretty good picture of the supply and demand and know better than me.
> 
> And for the record, I don't own in the CA desert or Hawaii...



We have a 100% objective way of valuing each and every villa and week of those villas - the existing Marriott rental system.

In a Points system geared towards exchanging this is ALL you need.  Week 52 at Summit Watch in a 2BR rents for $1,078.00 per night or $7,546 for the week.  Let's round it off to 7,500 Points deposited if you own the week or if you want to rent the week.

Do the same for each Marriott unit and week and you have a 100% objective way of measuring one Marriott unit against another.

So is Marriott going to award 7,500 Points per year to the 2BR week 52 owner at Summit Watch?

Bet your bottom dollar no!

This system must also handle purchase price and that's where things get sticky and sales antics enter the picture.

So it won't take but a day or so for many of us to find out if this is an "honest" system or a "dishonest" system; just like Vegas.

It won't take me long to figure how "fair" the new system is - the average Marriott owner won't even suspect that the "house" might stack the decks in its favor...


----------



## DanCali

PerryM said:


> This system must also handle purchase price and that's where things get sticky and sales antics enter the picture.



I completely agree... and that's why i said marriott cannot be objective.

I guess this goes back to a point you raised a few hundred posts ago...  Marriott is a management company / developer. II and RCI are exchange companies. I say let each company do what it does best. 

Marriott is doing this because sales are drying up, not because they can do a better job than II. I don't think that even they truly think that they can do a better job than II...


----------



## GregT

Has there been a thread in another board that compares the different existing point systems and the options that deeded owners have in participating in a new point system?

I'm sure Marriott studied it, I'd like to as well.  Thanks!


Have seen this summary thread, but still looking for a "best practices" thread

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64571


----------



## PerryM

DanCali said:


> I completely agree... and that's why i said *marriott cannot be objective.
> *
> I guess this goes back to a point you raised a few hundred posts ago...  Marriott is a management company / developer. II and RCI are exchange companies. I say let each company do what it does best.
> 
> Marriott is doing this because sales are drying up, not because they can do a better job than II. I don't think that even they truly think that they can do a better job than II...



No timeshare developer can.

It always boils down to understanding what they offer and if you can exploit parts of it to your advantage - god knows they do the same for themselves.

Loopholes will be found, then plugged which always leads to even more loopholes and so on.

To 95% of the Marriott owners they just don't care and if they have the bucks they will trust Marriott and just do what Marriott says.  Their only decision is how much do they lose for waiting.

I still think $2,500 is an attractive starting fee per week and Marriott will so generously offer us to extend that over 24 months (at no finance charge) - so $100 per month and everyone is happy.


----------



## Cindala

Dean said:


> I can absolutely respect someone who says they're upset at how a given change affects them but they realize the companies position.



If I worked for Marriott or stood to benefit from this new system, I might think like that. 



Dean said:


> I cannot respect one who says, how dare they make changes that are different than what I want and what the rules were when they joined.



I think that most Marriott owners first concern is how this new points system changes the exchanges/rules that they _bought_ into and how it will likely devalue their timeshare. Most will not think, "Marriott has to make money somewhere since sales are down, so I understand."


----------



## timeos2

*Why should II be involved?*



DanCali said:


> I completely agree... and that's why i said marriott cannot be objective.
> 
> I guess this goes back to a point you raised a few hundred posts ago...  Marriott is a management company / developer. II and RCI are exchange companies. I say let each company do what it does best.
> 
> Marriott is doing this because sales are drying up, not because they can do a better job than II. I don't think that even they truly think that they can do a better job than II...



IMO a blind chipmunk with other typing infirmaries could do a better job than II running an exchange system.  A well designed points system by Marriott should be a great option as it is with so many other big names. The only surprise is that it has taken SO long for Marriott to offer it (if they do as we assume).  Why should Marriott owners be forced to be a member of II and pay the fees simply to move between other Marriott resorts? It makes no sense.  If all you want is a standalone resort then why brand it with a system? If you are in a system why require yet another third party & the costs that brings with it to handle use outside your home ownership week(s)? It hasn't made sense from the beginning and it will be a big positive when it is finally addressed by Marriott with a points based, internal exchange process. Way overdue.


----------



## PerryM

*Bozo the clown was always creepy in my opinion....*



Dean said:


> I can't see street prices being representative because there is no real standard (see ebay) and because the prices right now are so low that they would not do anything rather than use these prices as a gauge.  They have ALREADY valued each resort and week currently in sales.  It is not a difficult conversion to take that info and mesh it into some type of price per point.  If you has no home resort priority and points are points, you just take them all and average them then add 10-20% or more.  That's one area I do agree with Perry, that each point sold is either a high demand point in the eyes of the buyer OR a point slated for when/where that buyer wants to use it.  It's even easier if you keep the underlying view/unit season/etc in place.  As much as anything else, I'm interested in how the dues will be calculated.
> 
> And even more to me, how will they determine the differences between the resorts.  My guess is the main way they'll get  you interested is by taking away options you have now including internal exchange priority and a significant reduction in inventory.  As for say a GV 3 BR compared to a HI 2 BR, I'd expect GV 3 BR to be worth somewhat less points as a reflection of the prices charged and the relative demand.  How much less is really the question in my mind but I'd guess a 2 BR GV about half a 2 BR HI and a 3 BR GV somewhere about half way in between.
> 
> We all have our bias but I'm with Alan in that honesty and relative objectivity are my goal, sometimes to a fault some would say.  I try to see the business side of these decisions as well, an areas where I think many fall down on these type of issues.  I look at these issues very cold and calculating and I can absolutely separate out what I think will and should happen from what would be best for me.  It is my opinion that many in timesharing can't look beyond their emotional involvement and personal preferences to see the big picture in ANY objective way.  Mark my words, we'll see plenty of posts of people complaining about the personal affect without any acknowledgement of Marriott's right to do so, heck, we already are.  I can absolutely respect someone who says they're upset at how a given change affects them but they realize the companies position.   *I cannot respect one who says, how dare they make changes that are different than what I want and what the rules were when they joined.*



I strongly disagree with that idea!

Marriott has its agenda and we have ours.  It's not my job to care a whit about Marriott.  Marriott could go belly up tonight and Summit Watch will do just fine.

In a transaction, my job as a buyer is to hand over money to Marriott and Marriott has painted a picture of what it intends to do for that money.

Clever lawyers has covered all the bases, in 6pt type, on the fact that Marriott can probably do just about anything up to but not including fraud to me.

So although Marriott has a right to throw out weeks and cook up new schemes to wring more money out of us doesn't mean for a second I need to understand their thrust to stick a legal document in my face and shout "I can do this to you Bozo".

I have no doubt that there will be plenty of lawsuits to go around and that some will eventually get me a $25 Marriott Gift Certificate which will cost Marriott owners $100 but that's how the game is played.

So I don't like what Marriott is doing to us and I could care less their need to make money for their stockholders - Marriott going the way of the Dodo bird really isn't going to impact me a bit.


----------



## Dean

Cindala said:


> If I worked for Marriott or stood to benefit from this new system, I might think like that.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that most Marriott owners first concern is how this new points system changes the exchanges/rules that they _bought_ into and how it will likely devalue their timeshare. Most will not think, "Marriott has to make money somewhere since sales are down, so I understand."


This potential change is not a good way to represent the emotional vs objective/factual line of thinking.  Look at it another way, say Marriott took away the 13 month priority options, something they can easily do on their own and in some ways, likely should.  The question isn't how it affects you personally but what is the reasonableness of the decision itself independent of your personal involvement.  BTW, this exact change would likely cause me to sell some of my weeks, but I could still understand it.



PerryM said:


> I strongly disagree with that idea!
> 
> Marriott has its agenda and we have ours.  It's not my job to care a whit about Marriott.  Marriott could go belly up tonight and Summit Watch will do just fine.
> 
> In a transaction, my job as a buyer is to hand over money to Marriott and Marriott has painted a picture of what it intends to do for that money.
> 
> Clever lawyers has covered all the bases, in 6pt type, on the fact that Marriott can probably do just about anything up to but not including fraud to me.
> 
> So although Marriott has a right to throw out weeks and cook up new schemes to wring more money out of us doesn't mean for a second I need to understand their thrust to stick a legal document in my face and shout "I can do this to you Bozo".
> 
> I have no doubt that there will be plenty of lawsuits to go around and that some will eventually get me a $25 Marriott Gift Certificate which will cost Marriott owners $100 but that's how the game is played.
> 
> So I don't like what Marriott is doing to us and I could care less their need to make money for their stockholders - Marriott going the way of the Dodo bird really isn't going to impact me a bit.


Perry, I rather thought you'd take that stance, you were the one I was thinking about when I wrote the statement because you've essentially already made those type of statements.  Let me clarify one point, I cannot respect the reasonableness of the opinion but can respect the person.


----------



## indyhorizons

Dean said:


> This potential change is not a good way to represent the emotional vs objective/factual line of thinking.  Look at it another way, say Marriott took away the 13 month priority options, something they can easily do on their own and in some ways, likely should.  The question isn't how it affects you personally but what is the reasonableness of the decision itself independent of your personal involvement.  BTW, this exact change would likely cause me to sell some of my weeks, but I could still understand it.
> 
> Perry, I rather thought you'd take that stance, you were the one I was thinking about when I wrote the statement because you've essentially already made those type of statements.  Let me clarify one point, I cannot respect the reasonableness of the opinion but can respect the person.



You know Dean, you're right everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. However, who among us does not make decisions (emotional or otherwise) based on what they believe is good/best for them.  There is nothing that says that those decisions have to be rational to the rest of the world.  It takes a big person (that would be you) who can truly look at it from an objective perspective and say, Marriott (or whomever) has the right to do whatever, (fill in the blank here) and I respect that right. I would say the majorty of the world thinks like Perry and could give a rat's you know what how/what Marriott is doing and why, only to the extent of how it might affect them. (Unless you are a Marriott associate and/or stockholder).  I personally fall in the camp with Perry on this last note...


----------



## taffy19

m61376 said:


> I think you are misinterpreting what TDI means. It just means the relative demand of different weeks within the same area over the course of the year. Thus, areas such as Newport Coast and Palm Desert, which have a vast difference in demand between certain weeks, will have a much higher TDI during certain weeks than others (so their Plat. average TDI would be expectantly higher). Areas which are prime travel destinations year around (like Hawaii, etc.) will have lower average TDI's because the season is year 'round and there are few weeks which are much, much more popular than others. A TDI of 120 in Hawaii or several other locations might have a much higher demand than an Orlando week with a TDI of 140 or 150; you cannot use TDI's for comparison purposes.
> 
> What I did see Marriott doing in the AP program was charging different points to exchange in II based on the TDI of the requested week, so that many Plat. owners would not even have the requisite number of points to exchange back into their owned resort via II for some of the more premium weeks in their season. I thought that was curious.
> 
> *I bolded what you said about street prices reflecting demand and, hence, value. I maintain that this is the only really objective means of fairly assigning values- because it is a system already in place which does reflect market conditions and treats all resorts on an equal footing, reflecting what they have to offer, rather than being influenced by date of construction. IF Marriott bases valuations on that, people would be hard pressed to cry foul that they weren't being given what they thought their unit was worth.*


 
Marriott has resorts in many countries so how can they tag the points to rack rates? Rates are very different from one country to another. Points should be allocated by the quality, size, amenities, season and views of one resort against each other and should be adjusted by the demand for that resort worldwide at the *moment* when you make the reservation. That is a true floating system, IMHO.

I have a feeling that they will combine the two systems (AP and MVCI) by making some basic changes to both because we want to be able to travel all over the world.


m61376 said:


> I just remember references being made here and there about changes. The new Maui towers will be an interesting example too- some were sold as floating and some as fixed weeks.
> 
> I would hope that the AP program and whatever new scheme Marriott introduces would be melded together. Otherwise- imagine 4 different sets of reservation systems for the resorts in the AP program (and any future resorts added to that program)! At least for the current resorts, there will still be deeded week owners in both the old systems and presumably point owners in both the new systems; future resorts would have 2 sets of point owners if the programs weren't combined. Imagine the limitations that would impose, especially on limited inventory weeks (such as OF, 3BR's, etc.).





m61376 said:


> I just remember references being made here and there about changes. The new Maui towers will be an interesting example too- some were sold as floating and some as fixed weeks.


Marriott must have thought about this already when they sold the fixed week/units at the new Maui towers because there is a clause in our deed that we can convert our fixed week/unit to the floating system. I found this clause strange but they must have known then already that they were going to change an outdated system eventually. I have been looking for the papers so I could quote it here but they are where the DSV-I papers are too and so far, I haven't found them.


----------



## PerryM

*A matter of timing...*



Dean said:


> ...
> Perry, I rather thought you'd take that stance, you were the one I was thinking about when I wrote the statement because you've essentially already made those type of statements.  Let me clarify one point, I cannot respect the reasonableness of the opinion but can respect the person.



Thank you!

400,000 families are going to be hit with unexpected bills next week - if we take the "official" unemployment at 9.7% and an equally valid one at about 18% against our 400,000 families that means that between 40,000 and 72,000 unemployed Marriott families are going to be thrust into a whirlwind where they are going to have to make a painful decision.

And for what?  I don't see where they will be better off a few years from now because of this upheaval at this time.  I don't see where dumping weeks for Points makes my Marriott ownership any better.

How many of the 400,000 families are already in bankruptcy because of their timeshare purchases?

So I have NO sympathy for Marriott at all for ramming this down our throats now because they can do so.

I'm sure Marriott has a philanthropic side where it donates big bucks each year to outside organizations - that would be the same Marriott that has no hesitation in ruining a family because of 2 delinquent timeshare payments.

I don't like what Marriott is doing and I don't like that they are doing this to so many folks at this time.

Do they have the right to do all this to all those folks? - sure.


----------



## DanCali

timeos2 said:


> Why should Marriott owners be forced to be a member of II and pay the fees simply to move between other Marriott resorts? It makes no sense.



So it's better to pay the fees to Marriott? Fees will be paid regardless... it's jut a matter of who does a better job with exchanges and who can be more objective with assessing trading power.

IMO II is the one that gets a pretty full picture of supply and demand for exchanges and therefore can assess what is "like for like" best.

Some people say that Marriott can do the same thing based on MVCI proprty rental rates on marriott.com. I beg to differ... 

When it comes to setting rates for MVCI property rentals, Marriott get a picture of the demand from hotel renters - not timeshare owners. This can be a completely different demand curve. On the supply side, the supply available to rent is the supply Marriott has - it's (i) unsold units (high supply for new resorts, low supply for 20 or 10 year old resorts) and (ii) conversion to hotel points from owners. This is not the supply that II sees... 

The intersection of supply and demand in the Marriott world (which determines rental rates - and trading power as some would wish) may be completely different than the intersection of supply and demand in the II world. Which one is more relevant to us? Which one can adapt more dynamically if supply and demand change? To me, the answer is clear here.


----------



## rsackett

One thing that has not been talked about much in maintenance fees; I would think in the new system a point is a point and when Marriott is selling points they will all sell for the same price and have the same maintenance fee per point.

So when the Summit Watch Bronze week owner gets just a few points his maintenance fees will drop, where as a week 52 owners at Summit Watch will get many points and their maintenance fees will go up!  More points mean more trading power AND higher maintenance fees!  So that week 52 Summit owner wants to stay week 52 at Summit Watch, he must use all his points and his fees are now higher to stay at his week.  In this scenario the Bronze week owner actually saves money as long as he stays in a Bronze week.   What the Bronze week owner gives up is the chance to move up in season with what he already owns, except possibly in flex change.

So all the owners who have TOP traders at the best resorts that have been thinking that they could get several weeks for their units in a points system, you will be paying more for that privilege.

Ray


----------



## taffy19

DanCali said:


> So it's better to pay the fees to Marriott? Fees will be paid regardless... it's jut a matter of who does a better job with exchanges and who can be more objective with assessing trading power.
> 
> *IMO II is the one that gets a pretty full picture of supply and demand for exchanges and therefore can assess what is "like for like" best.*
> 
> Some people say that Marriott can do the same thing based on MVCI proprty rental rates on marriott.com. I beg to differ...
> 
> When it comes to setting rates for MVCI property rentals, Marriott get a picture of the demand from hotel renters - not timeshare owners. This can be a completely different demand curve. On the supply side, the supply available to rent is the supply Marriott has - it's (i) unsold units (high supply for new resorts, low supply for 20 or 10 year old resorts) and (ii) conversion to hotel points from owners. This is not the supply that II sees...
> 
> The intersection of supply and demand in the Marriott world (which determines rental rates - and trading power as some would wish) may be completely different than the intersection of supply and demand in the II world. Which one is more relevant to us? Which one can adapt more dynamically if supply and demand change? To me, the answer is clear here.


I agree with you and I wonder how Marriott is going to tackle that. It's going to be a nightmare to keep everyone happy.  Would there be two indexes?  One for allocating points and one for doing the exchanges?  I give up guessing.


----------



## PerryM

iconnections said:


> *Marriott has resorts in many countries so how can they tag the points to rack rates?* Rates are very different from one country to another. Points should be allocated by the quality, size, amenities, season and views of one resort against each other and should be adjusted by the demand for that resort worldwide at the *moment* when you make the reservation. That is a true floating system, IMHO.
> 
> ...



To make a 100% "Honest" Point system based upon deeds two things are essential:

Independent real estate appraisals
Independent, real world, source of supply and demand - rental rates to folks who pay cold hard cash to simply occupy the unit for a short while

Marriott isn't about to use either.

An independent real estate appraisal of a timeshare week is probably an inside joke in the real estate appraisers world.

Marriott rental rates could be used for supply and demand and they work ALL around the world.  The rate in Maui can be compared to the rate in Hong Kong because entire industries exist to instantly appraise the "value" of one currency against another; the exchange rate.

Marriott won't use their own rental rates since reality has nothing to do with their new sales system.  What timeshare developer's sales system does?

We're going to learn the new Marriott way of doing timeshares and we all have to decide if it's worth the bucks to upgrade or stay and be affected by that same new system.


----------



## taffy19

PerryM said:


> To make a 100% "Honest" Point system based upon deeds two things are essential:
> 
> Independent real estate appraisals
> Independent, real world, source of supply and demand - rental rates to folks who pay cold hard cash to simply occupy the unit for a short while
> Marriott isn't about to use either.
> 
> An independent real estate appraisal of a timeshare week is probably an inside joke in the real estate appraisers world.
> 
> Marriott rental rates could be used for supply and demand and they work ALL around the world. The rate in Maui can be compared to the rate in Hong Kong because entire industries exist to instantly appraise the "value" of one currency against another; the exchange rate.
> 
> Marriott won't use their own rental rates since reality has nothing to do with their new sales system. What timeshare developer's sales system does?
> 
> We're going to learn the new Marriott way of doing timeshares and we all have to decide if it's worth the bucks to upgrade or stay and be affected by that same new system.


What about the standard of living? Some hotels (Halekulani for instance) in Honolulu on Waikiki beach are very expensive for us but not for the Japanese as everything costs so much more in Japan. For them it is not expensive. I hope that Marriott has figured it all out as they took years to do it. They may even go together with other brand name timeshare developers as several have made adjustments lately.

I would like to know how many people are converting or if it will be one big flop? Time will tell.


----------



## PerryM

iconnections said:


> What about the standard of living? Some hotels (Halekulani for instance) in Honolulu on Waikiki beach are very expensive for us but not for the Japanese as everything costs so much more in Japan. For them it is not expensive. I hope that Marriott has figured it all out as they took years to do it. They may even go together with other brand name timeshare developers as several have made adjustments lately.
> 
> I would like to know how many people are converting or if it will be one big flop? Time will tell.



As long as we keep thinking of 3rd party, independent, sources of supply and demand then there probably is a list that can be made, and we are on the right trail.

In 10 years of being an amateur timeshare aficionado I can't find a better source, of supply and demand, than what someone who has no interest in buying the condo will pay to rent the condo.

But, maybe there are...


----------



## Cindala

rsackett said:


> One thing that has not been talked about much in maintenance fees; I would in the new system a point is a point and when Marriott is selling points they will all sell for the same price and have the same maintenance fee per point.
> 
> So when the Summit Watch Bronze week owner gets just a few points his main fees will drop, where as a week 52 owners at Summit Watch will get many points and their maintenance fees will go up!  More points mean more trading power AND higher maintenance fees!  So that week 52 Summit owner wants to stay week 52 at Summit Watch, he must use all his points and his fees are now higher to stay at his week.  In this scenario the Bronze week owner actually saves money as long as he stays in a Bronze week.   What the Bronze week owner gives up is the chance to move up in season with what he already owns, except possibly in flex change.
> 
> So all the owners who have TOP traders at the best resorts that have been thinking that they could get several weeks for their units in a points system, you will be paying more for that privilege.
> 
> Ray



And those in the Bronze season will have to wait 3 years to have enough points to get the week they want _and_ pay 3 years of maintenance fees, even if they are less.
Ex. Old way; one years fees say $850 = one week (where you want to stay)
      New way; 3 years fees say $600 x 3 = $1800 = one week(where you  want to stay)

Even though the fees may be less each year, it may take longer to get the points you need for the week you want. So the week you get will cost more in the long run. 

Marriott is the clear winner here.


----------



## wuv pooh

indyhorizons said:


> You know Dean, you're right everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. However, who among us does not make decisions (emotional or otherwise) based on what they believe is good/best for them.  There is nothing that says that those decisions have to be rational to the rest of the world.  It takes a big person (that would be you) who can truly look at it from an objective perspective and say, Marriott (or whomever) has the right to do whatever, (fill in the blank here) and I respect that right. I would say the majorty of the world thinks like Perry and could give a rat's you know what how/what Marriott is doing and why, only to the extent of how it might affect them. (Unless you are a Marriott associate and/or stockholder).  I personally fall in the camp with Perry on this last note...



Marriott does what is best for the majority (and most profitable) of its customers, period end of story.  Those customers do not include people who obsess over 1800 post TUG threads regardless of what we think.  It is the 80/20 rule.  Any changes will be gladly embraced by those who pay the bills.  The rest of us will adapt and move on to the next loophole regardless of our opinions or emotions.


----------



## DanCali

wuv pooh said:


> Marriott does what is best for the majority (and most profitable) of its customers, period end of story.



No - Marriott does what is best for it and its shareholders. 

If it actually cared about timeshare owners it wouldn't let resale prices crater - clearly that hurts owners' pockets, no?



wuv pooh said:


> Those customers do not include people who obsess over 1800 post TUG threads regardless of what we think.  It is the 80/20 rule.  Any changes will be gladly embraced by those who pay the bills.  The rest of us will adapt and move on to the next loophole regardless of our opinions or emotions.



With any new points system it will be the 50/50 rule because it's a zero sum game. For every Hawaii owner who used to get 7 days and now gets 11 days in Orlando, there will be the Orlando owner who used to get 7 days in Hawaii and now gets only 3 days. 50% of owners will be better off, 50% will be worse off. It pretty much has to work that way...


----------



## PerryM

*Smiley faces - grim faces*



wuv pooh said:


> Marriott does what is best for the majority (and most profitable) of its customers, period end of story.  Those customers do not include people who obsess over 1800 post TUG threads regardless of what we think.  It is the 80/20 rule.  Any changes will be gladly embraced by those who pay the bills.  The rest of us will adapt and move on to the next loophole regardless of our opinions or emotions.



Marriott has but one goal - to maximize profits for their stockholders.  If they do anything else they will be sued by those stockholders.

Customers have but one goal - to maximize the money spent for goods and services returned; at least the ones who care do.

Each of the two camps does what's best for them and if free markets and robust competition exists we have the best system of commerce ever devised.  Notice the absence of political forces replacing free market forces.

This means that after the ink dries on that sales contact, the smiley faces of the salesreps are replaced by the grim faces of the legal department.  From that instant on its the professional legal department against the rank amateur owner.  Want to guess who wins here?

In a little over a week the grim faces of the lawyers will tell us what they did to us and turn the show over to the smiling faces of the salesreps.

That's how all this works...


----------



## Dean

indyhorizons said:


> You know Dean, you're right everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. However, who among us does not make decisions (emotional or otherwise) based on what they believe is good/best for them.  There is nothing that says that those decisions have to be rational to the rest of the world.  It takes a big person (that would be you) who can truly look at it from an objective perspective and say, Marriott (or whomever) has the right to do whatever, (fill in the blank here) and I respect that right. I would say the majorty of the world thinks like Perry and could give a rat's you know what how/what Marriott is doing and why, only to the extent of how it might affect them. (Unless you are a Marriott associate and/or stockholder).  I personally fall in the camp with Perry on this last note...


I chose to think most people are better than that, that they can at least see both sides of the issue even if they disagree with the decision.  To be honest, I see ONLY being able to look at at issue of HOW it affects you as a problem because it means those decisions are emotional decisions, I believe it essentially represents the entitlement mentality.


----------



## wuv pooh

DanCali said:


> No - Marriott does what is best for it and its shareholders.
> 
> If it actually cared about timeshare owners it wouldn't let resale prices crater - clearly that hurts owners' pockets, no?



Yes, which is exactly what I said.  What is best for the shareholders is to take care of the profitable customers, not the "deadbeat" customers.  Clearly its most profitable customers are the ones who use the system and will buy another retail week, not people who buy or want to resell.  Resale is irrelevant to Marriott and its customers as every timeshare presentation is required to state by law  

They are not infallible, but they clearly have built the most successful timeshare organization in the world.  They have access to significantly more marketing data and other examples of systems that work and don't work.  My guess is that the system they roll out will be very successful.  If I were a betting man my money would be on them vs. anyone on this thread  , and it is


----------



## Dean

DanCali said:


> No - Marriott does what is best for it and its shareholders.
> 
> If it actually cared about timeshare owners it wouldn't let resale prices crater - clearly that hurts owners' pockets, no?


I think good companies like Marriott try to find the best balance possible on the myriad of issues that apply.   However, I don't believe that resale value is an issue with timeshares in general.  They are sold essentailly with the idea of use it not resale, that the resale value is essentially zero going in and that therefore there is nothing to support.  I don't think a company can really protect resale value anyway and while I think ROFR does so minimally in SOME situations, I don't think it's very effective in doing so except where the underlying product has enough value that it shouldn't be needed.  I can't think of anything Marriott has done in the last few years responsible for the cheaper prices we now see.


----------



## PerryM

Dean said:


> I think good companies like Marriott try to find the best balance possible on the myriad of issues that apply.   However, I don't believe that resale value is an issue with timeshares in general.  They are sold essentailly with the idea of use it not resale, that the resale value is essentially zero going in and that therefore there is nothing to support.  I don't think a company can really protect resale value anyway and while I think ROFR does so minimally in SOME situations, I don't think it's very effective in doing so except where the underlying product has enough value that it shouldn't be needed.  *I can't think of anything Marriott has done in the last few years responsible for the cheaper prices we now see.*



Well, how about bashing the hell out of resales every chance they get?

Marriott has been carrying on a rumor campaign, for as long as I can remember, disparaging those sniveling, irritating, commission halting, Marriott owners who dare compete with Marriott to sell used timeshares?

Marriott profits with every dollar resales falls - they simply exercise the ROFR when they need inventory.

Marriott has a vested interest in seeing that resales crumble - more profits for the stockholders and that's what they were hired to do.

Let's not forget this is a Fortune 500 company out to destroy your resale; this isn't some kook on a website spewing hate.  Every time that Marriott salesrep warned us about resales I wanted to stand up and shout "You idiot - I'm that owner you hate so much", but I just took their free gift and went on my way...


----------



## taffy19

Dean said:


> I think good companies like Marriott try to find the best balance possible on the myriad of issues that apply. However, I don't believe that resale value is an issue with timeshares in general. They are sold essentailly with the idea of use it not resale, that the resale value is essentially zero going in and that therefore there is nothing to support. I don't think a company can really protect resale value anyway and while I think ROFR does so minimally in SOME situations, I don't think it's very effective in doing so except where the underlying product has enough value that it shouldn't be needed. I can't think of anything Marriott has done in the last few years responsible for the cheaper prices we now see.


What is so ironic  is that the Government does such a great job protecting us from what? The documents are pages long "for our protection" but the clause that is most important in the contract is missing and that is that timeshares have lost most of it's value the moment you walk out of the office because it isn't real estate. Why is that not included in big print in the contract?  Most people assume that they are buying real estate but they are not and Marriott says so on their own web page as all you buy is an investment in a lifetime of vacations and lasting memories. It's right here in black and white!*Benefits of Ownership*​Experience the peace of mind that comes from owning extraordinary resort vacations year after year. Timeshare is an investment in a lifetime of vacations and lasting memories​


----------



## RandR

DanCali said:


> With any new points system it will be the 50/50 rule because it's a zero sum game. For every Hawaii owner who used to get 7 days and now gets 11 days in Orlando, there will be the Orlando owner who used to get 7 days in Hawaii and now gets only 3 days. 50% of owners will be better off, 50% will be worse off. It pretty much has to work that way...



That's not how the math works.  It does not have to be anywhere close to 50/50.  As long as everything adds up, the bulk of the advantage can go to a small percentage of the owners.  As a very simple example, if one owner gets to now reserve 4 extra days and 4 owners can each reserve one less day, the math works out but only 20% have benefitted.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> Well, how about bashing the hell out of resales every chance they get?
> 
> Marriott has been carrying on a rumor campaign, for as long as I can remember, disparaging those sniveling, irritating, commission halting, Marriott owners who dare compete with Marriott to sell used timeshares?
> 
> Marriott profits with every dollar resales falls - they simply exercise the ROFR when they need inventory.
> 
> Marriott has a vested interest in seeing that resales crumble - more profits for the stockholders and that's what they were hired to do.


You mean by trying to sell retail weeks instead?  Obviosly there is a competition here and they have a vested interest. Still, the market will sort itself out and those that are aware of the option of resale will know they have choices and can make decisions.  I think you give the sale staff more power than I do.


----------



## Dean

iconnections said:


> What is so ironic  is that the Government does such a great job protecting us from what? The documents are pages long "for our protection" but the clause that is most important in the contract is missing and that is that timeshares have lost most of it's value the moment you walk out of the office because it isn't real estate. Why is that not included in big print in the contract?  Most people assume that they are buying real estate but they are not and Marriott says so on their own web page as all you buy is an investment in a lifetime of vacations and lasting memories. It's right here in black and white!*Benefits of Ownership*​Experience the peace of mind that comes from owning extraordinary resort vacations year after year. Timeshare is an investment in a lifetime of vacations and lasting memories​


I believe they do have you sign that you understand that buying a timeshare is NOT an investment and that there is no promised sale or rental value.


----------



## ricki999

iconnections said:


> What is so ironic  is that the Government does such a great job protecting us from what? The documents are pages long "for our protection" but the clause that is most important in the contract is missing and that is that timeshares have lost most of it's value the moment you walk out of the office because it isn't real estate. Why is that not included in big print in the contract?  Most people assume that they are buying real estate but they are not and Marriott says so on their own web page as all you buy is an investment in a lifetime of vacations and lasting memories. It's right here in black and white!*Benefits of Ownership*​Experience the peace of mind that comes from owning extraordinary resort vacations year after year. Timeshare is an investment in a lifetime of vacations and lasting memories​



Then why are we paying property taxes.


----------



## PerryM

DanCali said:


> No - Marriott does what is best for it and its shareholders.
> 
> If it actually cared about timeshare owners it wouldn't let resale prices crater - clearly that hurts owners' pockets, no?
> 
> 
> 
> *With any new points system it will be the 50/50 rule because it's a zero sum game.* For every Hawaii owner who used to get 7 days and now gets 11 days in Orlando, there will be the Orlando owner who used to get 7 days in Hawaii and now gets only 3 days. 50% of owners will be better off, 50% will be worse off. It pretty much has to work that way...



I respectfully disagree - it ain't close to 50/50.

The Marriott salesreps will ONLY sell hot holiday weeks from opening day on.  Before they were frustrated because those weeks sold out immediately and it was down hill from there.  They could not sell New Year's week every day of the year to every yahoo that walked in the sales gallery - that was yesterday next week they can.

What happens in Point systems is all that overestimation of holiday weeks has owners spending Points on much less desirable weeks/days in front of the holiday week.  So although you deposit a week 52 Platinum for 50,000 Points, lets say, it will take you MUCH MUCH more to get that week back - you will have to pad the front with worthless weeks.

Do the Math: 50,000 Points in and 75,000 Points out.  Wait a minute - need to buy more Points.  There is nothing close to 50/50 here that I can see.


----------



## taffy19

ricki999 said:


> Then why are we paying property taxes.


Good question!


----------



## DanCali

Dean said:


> I believe they do have you sign that you understand that buying a timeshare is NOT an investment and that there is no promised sale or rental value.



Any prospectus of an IPO or a 10K filing is littered with risk factors describing why you might lose money. These are all CYA clauses... That doesn't mean one buys to lose money. One also shouldn't buy a timeshare if they don't think it saves money versus renting.

Developer timeshares are pitched as saving money versus rentals (the Worldmark pitch is "pay for it once and vacation forever"), but I've been to 6-8 presentations, and have yet to meet the salesperson who tells me that my "investment" is worth much less 7 days later. The reality is that if people factored in all the costs, it is impossible to justify a retail purchase financially. Any new points system will not be much different in that regard.

Let me give you an example (and you can substitute the numbers at your respective resort). I believe the retail cost of a Platinum NCV is currently around $26K (maybe slightly higher - I lost track with the 15%-20% discounts running these days). 

Cost #1: MFs + taxes is around $1000/year

Cost #2: Opportunity cost of initial investment - I use 4% because in most economic times you can get this rate almost risk free in a 5 year CD or treasuries. In the case of NCV it is also about $1000

Cost #3: Immediate depreciation of investment - The Platinum NCV resells for 11K these days. So you lose $15K of your investment the moment you buy. Amortize that if you will over 15 years and that another $1000/year (this is conservative because you incur that cost upfront and I ignored time value of money).

So assuming no MF increases over the next 15 years (also very conservative... and wishful thinking), the cost of owning a retail Platinum NCV is around $3000 a year. I doubt many owners would buy retail if they realized this was the true cost of ownership. 

With a resale purchase Cost #3 doesn't exist, and Cost #2 is lower (less money upfront) so the overall cost is lower. A resale purchase is just easier to justify financially. Notice that is resale prices were higher, retail prices are easier to justify because there would be much less disparity between retail and resale cost. It is in Marriott's interest to keep resale prices high...

So why do people buy retail? (i) Because Marriott has great salespeople who have a great sales pitch and also convince them that $1250 worth of Marriott points (the cost for a couple to buy 100K points from Marriott) are worth 5-10 times more than $1250, and (ii) because the wording in the purchase documents is vague enough that when they say for example "you cannot sell the same product you buy because hotel points won't transfer," many people don't realize this actually means "your investment is worth much less the moment you walk out the door"... 

I'm not sure about others here, but I bought my timeshares to save money versus the alternative of renting comparable accommodations. To me, that is a financial investment decision - just like any other "lease versus buy" decision. If others buy for other reasons that's great too - but I am not sure how many would buy retail if they realized the financial implications of that decision... We may all get a second chance soon enough.


----------



## rsackett

Cindala said:


> And those in the Bronze season will have to wait 3 years to have enough points to get the week they want _and_ pay 3 years of maintenance fees, even if they are less.
> Ex. Old way; one years fees say $850 = one week (where you want to stay)
> New way; 3 years fees say $600 x 3 = $1800 = one week(where you  want to stay)
> 
> Even though the fees may be less each year, it may take longer to get the points you need for the week you want. So the week you get will cost more in the long run.
> 
> Marriott is the clear winner here.



But that Bronze owner COULD save money if they use the week the originaly bought, but the Platinum Pluss owner WILL pay more to use the week they originaly bought!

Ray


----------



## Asia2000

DanCali said:


> Any prospectus of an IPO or a 10K filing is littered with risk factors describing why you might lose money. These are all CYA clauses... That doesn't mean one buys to lose money. One also shouldn't buy a timeshare if they don't think it saves money versus renting.
> 
> Developer timeshares are pitched as saving money versus rentals (the Worldmark pitch is "pay for it once and vacation forever"), but I've been to 6-8 presentations, and have yet to meet the salesperson who tells me that my "investment" is worth much less 7 days later. The reality is that if people factored in all the costs, it is impossible to justify a retail purchase financially. Any new points system will not be much different in that regard.
> 
> Let me give you an example (and you can substitute the numbers at your respective resort). I believe the retail cost of a Platinum NCV is currently around $26K (maybe slightly higher - I lost track with the 15%-20% discounts running these days).
> 
> Cost #1: MFs + taxes is around $1000/year
> 
> Cost #2: Opportunity cost of initial investment - I use 4% because in most economic times you can get this rate almost risk free in a 5 year CD or treasuries. In the case of NCV it is also about $1000
> 
> Cost #3: Immediate depreciation of investment - The Platinum NCV resells for 11K these days. So you lose $15K of your investment the moment you buy. Amortize that if you will over 15 years and that another $1000/year (this is conservative because you incur that cost upfront and I ignored time value of money).
> 
> So assuming no MF increases over the next 15 years (also very conservative... and wishful thinking), the cost of owning a retail Platinum NCV is around $3000 a year. I doubt many owners would buy retail if they realized this was the true cost of ownership.
> 
> With a resale purchase Cost #3 doesn't exist, and Cost #2 is lower (less money upfront) so the overall cost is lower. A resale purchase is just easier to justify financially. Notice that is resale prices were higher, retail prices are easier to justify because there would be much less disparity between retail and resale cost. It is in Marriott's interest to keep resale prices high...
> 
> So why do people buy retail? (i) Because Marriott has great salespeople who have a great sales pitch and also convince them that $1250 worth of Marriott points (the cost for a couple to buy 100K points from Marriott) are worth 5-10 times more than $1250, and (ii) because the wording in the purchase documents is vague enough that when they say for example "you cannot sell the same product you buy because hotel points won't transfer," many people don't realize this actually means "your investment is worth much less the moment you walk out the door"...
> 
> I'm not sure about others here, but I bought my timeshares to save money versus the alternative of renting comparable accommodations. To me, that is a financial investment decision - just like any other "lease versus buy" decision. If others buy for other reasons that's great too - but I am not sure how many would buy retail if they realized the financial implications of that decision... We may all get a second chance soon enough.



Correct me if I'm wrong.  Marriott owners have been upgrading their weeks (ie. gold to platinum) or (ie. 1 bedroom to 2 bedroom) for years.  A new point system would allow Marriott to take away or minimize those available upgrades, and sell those upgrades/available inventory to new owners (points) and current timeshare owners via switching to a point system (for a fee).  In a sense, they are taking what they already have or provide, and making new sales opportunities out of the existing inventory.  More money, with no new buildings or massive upfront costs.  Only a little marketing money and a fired up sales force loaded with smoke and mirrors.  It sounds good for Marriott.  

I think Perry and others have been saying this all along.  Is this the way you see it?


----------



## indyhorizons

Dean said:


> I chose to think most people are better than that, that they can at least see both sides of the issue even if they disagree with the decision.  To be honest, I see ONLY being able to look at at issue of HOW it affects you as a problem because it means those decisions are emotional decisions, I believe it essentially represents the entitlement mentality.



Isn't it all entitlement? My entitlement vs. Marriott's entitelment.  Why should I care what Marriott's concerns/needs are if they don't reciprocate?  We're talking about a business/entity not people/person.  You Dean, (or any other individual), I respect your right to live your life and make decisions as you see fit, as long as said decisions don't impact me negatively. Chances are, since I'm sure the chances of our lives intersecting are fairly slim, I'm sure that is not bound to happen, then we're good, and I have no beef with you. 

On the other hand, Marriott may be making a decision that may impact me negatively (operative word 'may' at this point), and you're darn tootin I disagree with it. I don't have to like it, and there's nothing you can do or say to convince me that I must or even should. Nor do I have to understand. Again, I am not personally a Marriott associate or shareholder, so what Marriott does to stay profitable doesn't concern me nearly as much.  In fact, I don't care what Marriott does to stay profitable, as I don't have to stay at Marriott hotels, there are many others to choose from. On the other hand, I am owner of a product (timeshare) that when the rules change may impact me, and now I am concerned. Plain and simple.
If you feel that's an entitlement mentality, so be it, I'm not offended. We don't even know each other.


----------



## indyhorizons

wuv pooh said:


> Yes, which is exactly what I said.  What is best for the shareholders is to take care of the profitable customers, not the "deadbeat" customers.  Clearly its most profitable customers are the ones who use the system and will buy another retail week, not people who buy or want to resell.  Resale is irrelevant to Marriott and its customers as every timeshare presentation is required to state by law
> 
> They are not infallible, but they clearly have built the most successful timeshare organization in the world.  They have access to significantly more marketing data and other examples of systems that work and don't work.  My guess is that the system they roll out will be very successful.  If I were a betting man my money would be on them vs. anyone on this thread  , and it is


Pooh, I guess we are all deadbeats then, as someone as already gracefully pointed out, there is no such thing as a new timeshare, in the general sense of the word...


----------



## DanCali

Asia2000 said:


> I think Perry and others have been saying this all along.  Is this the way you see it?



Absolutely... If this new program is launched it is with the intention to benefit Marritt, not owners. 

In fact, most points systems are designed so that the developer can skim off the top. For example, in Starwood's program owners have priority from 8-12 months out and exchangers can make internal exchanges at 8 months out. But guess what - Starwood can come in at 11 or 10 months out and make their own reservations based on anticipated hotel point conversions (whatever "anticipated" means...). That many times leaves exchangers out of luck when it comes to the most desirable weeks, even if actual owners didn't reserve them, because which weeks do you think Starwood will reserve to rent out for profit? They also have their own special II depsoit rules (they control the deposited week, not the owner) for exactly the same reasons. This is about a lot more than exchange fees... I'm not sure how Marriott handles reservations due to hotel point conversions now, but look for them to use this opportunity to tilt the rules in their favor.

It has been said by Fletch (probably over a thousand posts ago) that the #1 complaint Marriott gets is II. That may be the case, but despite that Marriott owners are overall quite happy with their ownership. II is as close to a true supply and demand market as you can get, so any dissatisfaction with II is likely due to Marriott salespeople promising things II simply cannot deliver. For Marriott to come after 20 years, change the rules of 400,000+ owners, and pretend they can do a better job than II and that everyone will be better off with a points system is a joke IMO.


----------



## m61376

Dean said:


> I can't see street prices being representative because there is no real standard (see ebay) and because the prices right now are so low that they would not do anything rather than use these prices as a gauge.  They have ALREADY valued each resort and week currently in sales.  It is not a difficult conversion to take that info and mesh it into some type of price per point.  If you has no home resort priority and points are points, you just take them all and average them then add 10-20% or more.  That's one area I do agree with Perry, that each point sold is either a high demand point in the eyes of the buyer OR a point slated for when/where that buyer wants to use it.  It's even easier if you keep the underlying view/unit season/etc in place.  As much as anything else, I'm interested in how the dues will be calculated.
> 
> And even more to me, how will they determine the differences between the resorts.  My guess is the main way they'll get  you interested is by taking away options you have now including internal exchange priority and a significant reduction in inventory.  As for say a GV 3 BR compared to a HI 2 BR, I'd expect GV 3 BR to be worth somewhat less points as a reflection of the prices charged and the relative demand.  How much less is really the question in my mind but I'd guess a 2 BR GV about half a 2 BR HI and a 3 BR GV somewhere about half way in between.


I think you misunderstood me when I suggested that market prices reflect demand- I was referring to market rental rates- the average rental rates that Marriott charges for a given unit during a given time period (season). They've already quantified the market demand in rental rates, and the comparative demand between different properties is likewise already calculated. That's why I suggested the rental rates would make a fair evaluative tool.

Of course, as DanCali suggested, GV owners might not think that was fair because they might come up on the short end of the stick. Regardless of what system they use, there are bound to be winners and losers, and I can understand the concern about that. I am just suggesting that using an objective quantification of value rather than some sales driven and variably formulation would be a more accurate reflection of what true value was. What better reflection of value than what others are willing to pay Marriott to rent the same week?


----------



## grgs

timeos2 said:


> A well designed points system by Marriott should be a great option as it is with so many other big names. The only surprise is that it has taken SO long for Marriott to offer it (if they do as we assume).



If Marriott had had a points system similar to Starwood or Hilton back when we bought our first timeshare, we'd probably be Marriott owners now instead of Starwood owners.  When we compared the three (back in 2004), Marriott won hands down with the variety of locations.  We liked the way Hilton's point system worked, but didn't like the concentration of resorts in only 3 main areas.  Starwood didn't have as many locations as Marriott, but more diversity than Hilton.  

While there are some legitimate concerns about Starwood (you can read all about them at the Starwood board ), we have been quite pleased with the internal exchange system.  It's not perfect, but overall has worked well for us.  We've also made good use of II exchanges with our Starwood units.   

Of course, I have sympathy for Marriott owners who are concerned that a change may screw up something that is currently working well.  I hope that doesn't happen, and I hope there are still plenty of Marriott units for me to trade into via II.  

Glorian


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## m61376

iconnections said:


> Marriott has resorts in many countries so how can they tag the points to rack rates? Rates are very different from one country to another. Points should be allocated by the quality, size, amenities, season and views of one resort against each other and should be adjusted by the demand for that resort worldwide at the *moment* when you make the reservation. That is a true floating system, IMHO.




Very simply- at a given point in time (let's say June 15th, if the program rolls out then) every resort has a rack rate, whether they are in the US, the Caribbean, France, Spain or Thailand; currencies may be different, but if I want to pay with a dollar there will be a rack rate for each property, based on quality, size, amenities, seasons and view- these are all parameters which affect demand, and the rack rate reflects the effect of demand. So, every resort in existence can be evaluated objectively on day one.

At any point in the future, if/when an additional property is added, the new property can also easily be fairly evaluated, just simply by comparing the rental rates at the time to the rental rates of a property which was evaluated at the program onset. Thus, all valuations are made using the same frame of reference, and you don't run into the situation where future resorts are over-valued relative to current resorts, whose point valuations will likely remain stagnant over time, fixed at the inception of the program.


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## grgs

DanCali said:


> In fact, most points systems are designed so that the developer can skim off the top. For example, in Starwood's program owners have priority from 8-12 months out and exchangers can make internal exchanges at 8 months out. But guess what - Starwood can come in at 11 or 10 months out and make their own reservations based on anticipated hotel point conversions (whatever "anticipated" means...). That many times leaves exchangers out of luck when it comes to the most desirable weeks, even if actual owners didn't reserve them, because which weeks do you think Starwood will reserve to rent out for profit? They also have their own special II depsoit rules (they control the deposited week, not the owner) for exactly the same reasons. This is about a lot more than exchange fees... I'm not sure how Marriott handles reservations due to hotel point conversions now, but look for them to use this opportunity to tilt the rules in their favor.



I think Dan does raise some interesting points here.  In terms of hotel point conversions, there is no way that I'm aware of to know what Starwood is taking out of the inventory, and yes, one would guess they would rather take prime weeks instead of dog weeks to rent.  I wish we could know better how what weeks they're taking.

In terms of the II deposit rules, I actually have less of an issue here.  The one consistent complaint I have read about from Marriott owners is not being able to reserve their home resort at 12 mos. out when trying for a peak week.  I have never heard of a Starwood owner getting locked out of their home resort at 12 mos. out.  It's one thing to not be able to get an internal exchange, but to not be able to book your home resort is awful!  I assume it's because so many Marriott owners try to get the highest demand week possible to trade in II (or a good chunk of weeks has already been booked by owners with the 13 mo. advantage).  With Starwood, this incentive doesn't exist, and so I think we have much less trouble getting weeks booked at our home resort during peak season.  Specifically, I have never had an issue booking March weeks at Westin Kierland or Sheraton Desert Oasis; however, I have read about Marriott Canyon Villa owners getting locked out.  

Glorian


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## timeos2

*Points self levels usage  - weeks cause runs on prime times*



grgs said:


> It's one thing to not be able to get an internal exchange, but to not be able to book your home resort is awful!  I assume it's because so many Marriott owners try to get the highest demand week possible to trade in II (or a good chunk of weeks have already been booked by owners with the 13 mo. advantage).  With Starwood, this incentive doesn't exist, and so I think we have much less trouble getting weeks booked at our home resort during peak season.  Specifically, I have never had an issue booking March weeks at Westin Kierland or Sheraton Desert Oasis; however, I have read about Marriott Canyon Villa owners getting locked out.
> 
> Glorian



That's one reason a points system should work much better. It naturally spreads out use and doesn't penalize those who can't/won't play games to get the few, very limited prime weeks at the expense of all other owners losing out. Grabbing the best & biggest just to get it, not to use.  With points it pays to be frugal and take only what you need. 

Hey the crazy system of forcing Marriott owners to use II has saved me buying a Marriott, which we had seriously once considered. It turned out to be much cheaper (and easier) to use a points based system (DRI Club) to get every Marriott we ever wanted, when we wanted it, for deeply discounted point values using the infamous II developer priority. Seems we as outsiders had easier access than those that pay the big ownership costs.  I should be complaining that Marriott may be closing the door on that goldmine of easy and inexpensive access to great resorts. But I won't. Owners that pay the fees will be far better served with an internal points system rather than the highly manipulated II system.  Again the real question is why did Marriott wait so long to do the obvious?


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## indyhorizons

grgs said:


> It's one thing to not be able to get an internal exchange, but to not be able to book your home resort is awful!  I assume it's because so many Marriott owners try to get the highest demand week possible to trade in II (*or a good chunk of weeks has already been booked by owners with the 13 mo. advantage*).  With Starwood, this incentive doesn't exist, and so I think we have much less trouble getting weeks booked at our home resort during peak season.  Specifically, I have never had an issue booking March weeks at Westin Kierland or Sheraton Desert Oasis; however, I have read about Marriott Canyon Villa owners getting locked out.
> 
> Glorian



A couple things to note, I have never had a problem booking my home resort when I wanted it. Never. Yes, you have to play the game of calling at the right time at or around 9am, and all that is inherent in that.
Additionally, what you have stated here is only partially accurate. The 13-month rule is such that only 50% of a resorts inventory is held out for the multi-week owners.  The remaining 50% is left for the 12-month for same week. Thus what actually occurs is the multi-week owners get a crack at the prime week in question, 2ce (13 & 12 month interval), the single week owner only gets the one oppty.  Just to further note, I only just this past year became a multi-week owner, and repeat, I have never had a problem getting my home resort for the reservation I wanted.  Now, of course, I do not own at say HH, or NCV, however, your broad-brushed statement implies that all MVCI owners have a degree of difficulty reserving their desired home resort, and I just don't believe that to be the truth...


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## PerryM

*Is 13 a lucky number or not?*



indyhorizons said:


> A couple things to note, I have never had a problem booking my home resort when I wanted it. Never. Yes, you have to play the game of calling at the right time at or around 9am, and all that is inherent in that.
> Additionally, what you have stated here is only partially accurate. The 13-month rule is such that only 50% of a resorts inventory is held out for the multi-week owners.  The remaining 50% is left for the 12-month for same week. Thus what actually occurs is the multi-week owners get a crack at the prime week in question, 2ce (13 & 12 month interval), the single week owner only gets the one oppty.  Just to further note, I only just this past year became a multi-week owner, and repeat, I have never had a problem getting my home resort for the reservation I wanted.  Now, of course, I do not own at say HH, or NCV, however, your broad-brushed statement implies that all MVCI owners have a degree of difficulty reserving their desired home resort, and I just don't believe that to be the truth...



A reasonable question to ask is "Will Marriott dump the 13 month rule?"

Marriott doesn't need it anymore - why should they let the folks who don't play their game have it?

I guess the sales documents might mention it - but if I remember correctly that required 2 weeks consecutive or concurrent at the SAME resort.  Marriott let it spill over to mean ANY resort.

Marriott can simply enforce the documents and the whole flavor of 13 month reservations change.

My guess is that if Marriott has to keep the 13 month rule they will enforce the original definition and cut down competition.

If they can dump it they will do so faster than a salesrep who realizes that Ma and Pa bought a resale Marriott and can quote the eBay price that day.

P.S.
If Marriott does tinker with the 13 month rule they will mention the term "Fairness".

Count how many times "Fairness" is used and that's how many times owners are getting screwed.


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## dougp26364

Asia2000 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong.  Marriott owners have been upgrading their weeks (ie. gold to platinum) or (ie. 1 bedroom to 2 bedroom) for years.  A new point system would allow Marriott to take away or minimize those available upgrades, and sell those upgrades/available inventory to new owners (points) and current timeshare owners via switching to a point system (for a fee).  In a sense, they are taking what they already have or provide, and making new sales opportunities out of the existing inventory.  More money, with no new buildings or massive upfront costs.  Only a little marketing money and a fired up sales force loaded with smoke and mirrors.  It sounds good for Marriott.
> 
> I think Perry and others have been saying this all along.  Is this the way you see it?



It depends. If you own one of the older resorts or a week with less value in the points based system, then yep, you most likely will find upgrading more difficult. On the other hand, if you own a more valuable week that has higher point values and you want to "trade down" to an older resort but, perhaps a higher season, then you might find your the one on the best position to upgrade.

The problem with buying to exchange is that exchange rules are subject to change. When they do change, it can have an adverse affect on how you set yourself up. Perry has had great luck with his Gold Summit watch week. I've had very good luck with my Silver Ocean Pointe studio week. In the new points system, both Perry and I may find those weeks aren't as attractive in the new exhcange system.

However, I also have a 1 bedroom Grand Chateau week that does a reasonably good job for exchange but, doesn't have the power I'd like it to have to get into the newer resorts that only have two bedroom units. My studio Ocean Pointe week is basically an extra exchange week for us. I don't have to have it. So, in a new points based system, this could work for me as I can now combine the studio points with the one bedroom points so that I might have an easier time getting the one two bedroom unit I really would like to have rather than two exchanges that are luke warm at best. 

It's really going to be a glass half full or half empty depending upon how you look at things. The ones that will have the most difficulty are those who bought strictly to exchange in a system that may become obsolete in a few short years. 

Boccabum's advice is to look at timeshare ownership short term. If you're buying to exchange, this is good advice as the rules can/do change. What's a great deal today might not be so great tomorrow.


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## dougp26364

indyhorizons said:


> Isn't it all entitlement? My entitlement vs. Marriott's entitelment.  Why should I care what Marriott's concerns/needs are if they don't reciprocate?  We're talking about a business/entity not people/person.  You Dean, (or any other individual), I respect your right to live your life and make decisions as you see fit, as long as said decisions don't impact me negatively. Chances are, since I'm sure the chances of our lives intersecting are fairly slim, I'm sure that is not bound to happen, then we're good, and I have no beef with you.
> 
> On the other hand, Marriott may be making a decision that may impact me negatively (operative word 'may' at this point), and you're darn tootin I disagree with it. I don't have to like it, and there's nothing you can do or say to convince me that I must or even should. Nor do I have to understand. Again, I am not personally a Marriott associate or shareholder, so what Marriott does to stay profitable doesn't concern me nearly as much.  In fact, I don't care what Marriott does to stay profitable, as I don't have to stay at Marriott hotels, there are many others to choose from. On the other hand, I am owner of a product (timeshare) that when the rules change may impact me, and now I am concerned. Plain and simple.
> If you feel that's an entitlement mentality, so be it, I'm not offended. We don't even know each other.



You have to keep in mind that the only thing you buy when you purchase a timeshare is the right to use that week. Exchange privledges, hotel rewards points, exchanging for cruises or other services are all subject to change. The timeshare buyer that purchases for the extra's will meet dissapointment some time in the future as all these thing will eventually change. Ask anyone who bought a Marriot timeshare with the intent on using that timeshare for the Marriott Rewards points they could get.


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## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> A reasonable question to ask is "Will Marriott dump the 13 month rule?"
> 
> Marriott doesn't need it anymore - why should they let the folks who don't play their game have it?
> 
> I guess the sales documents might mention it - but if I remember correctly that required 2 weeks consecutive or concurrent at the SAME resort.  Marriott let it spill over to mean ANY resort.
> 
> Marriott can simply enforce the documents and the whole flavor of 13 month reservations change.
> 
> My guess is that if Marriott has to keep the 13 month rule they will enforce the original definition and cut down competition.
> 
> If they can dump it they will do so faster than a salesrep who realizes that Ma and Pa bought a resale Marriott and can quote the eBay price that day.
> 
> P.S.
> If Marriott does tinker with the 13 month rule they will mention the term "Fairness".
> 
> Count how many times "Fairness" is used and that's how many times owners are getting screwed.




While it wouldn't surprise me to not see the 13 month rule in any new points based system, I would imagine that the 13 month rule for mult. week owners will remain in place for those that stay in the weeks based exchange system.


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## PerryM

*David and Goliath - the real story....*



dougp26364 said:


> While it wouldn't surprise me to not see the 13 month rule in any new points based system, I would imagine that the 13 month rule for mult. week owners will remain in place for those that stay in the weeks based exchange system.



It really won't matter since Marriott can string together 4 or 8 or 12 or 16 or more reservations together to snap up ALL 13 month and  then concurrently place hundreds of orders for 12 month inventory within a second.

Folks; its you against a Fortune 500 company trying to snag New Year's Week - who do you think will win?

Oh, and if you own a fixed week 52 forget Saturday and Friday check-ins - you'll get Sunday night.

Oh, if you own a Gold and Platinum, at the same resort, and you've always reserved them consecutively (one following the other) - good luck with that.

A combo sales and reservation Point system has the developer taking an aggressive interest in snagging the primo reservations for the folks who play their game; those that don't are their enemy and are to be defeated.

There is no "Can we all just get along" in business....


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## PerryM

*Trust buster?*

It occurred to me that if Marriott goes down the trust based Point system they might be able to take 50 deposited weeks along with the 2 they own and just become condo oriented - the trust controls all the units to make a whole condo and thus start locking out complete condos from folks who don't join their club.

Like controlling the condos with the best views, the top floors, the ones around the pool, and of course ignore the ones with the worst reputation.

Once complete condos are dedicated to the new system who get's the newest furniture, rugs, appliances, carpet shampoos, and the best maids - take a guess.

I doubt that folks who belong to the new system will ever get to hear the beeping Dumpster hauling truck at 5 AM.

Something to think about...


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## taffy19

m61376 said:


> Very simply- at a given point in time (let's say June 15th, if the program rolls out then) every resort has a rack rate, whether they are in the US, the Caribbean, France, Spain or Thailand; currencies may be different, but if I want to pay with a dollar there will be a rack rate for each property, based on quality, size, amenities, seasons and view- these are all parameters which affect demand, and the rack rate reflects the effect of demand. So, every resort in existence can be evaluated objectively on day one.
> 
> At any point in the future, if/when an additional property is added, the new property can also easily be fairly evaluated, just simply by comparing the rental rates at the time to the rental rates of a property which was evaluated at the program onset. Thus, all valuations are made using the same frame of reference, and you don't run into the situation where future resorts are over-valued relative to current resorts, whose point valuations will likely remain stagnant over time, fixed at the inception of the program.


Rack rates are a *farce*! We just spent nine days back East and one Marriott had a rack rate of $1,500 per night. Who would pay that? We used MRPs instead  because we would never pay that rate.

We then went to the Marriott New York Marquis and used a few nights on MRPs too but still had to pay for one night ourselves because there were no MRPs available. We paid just over $400 for the night with the tax included. We couldn't afford many nights like that and I forgot to look what the rack rate was at this hotel but probably even more yet than $1,500 per night as in Washington, DC.  I may be wrong but I believe that hotel rates change often too because of supply and demand at that particular moment.

We also noticed in the elevators that most people were foreigners and not English speaking when we were there. Their standard of living may be higher than ours so their hotel rates are higher too and this hotel wasn't expensive for them.

Only real rates count if you want to have that type of system but it still has something to do with the standard of living in other countries because it may become a global point system. I am only speculating again and we will know soon enough.


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## taffy19

PerryM said:


> It occurred to me that if Marriott goes down the trust based Point system they might be able to take 50 deposited weeks along with the 2 they own and just become condo oriented - the trust controls all the units to make a whole condo and thus start locking out complete condos from folks who don't join their club.
> 
> Like controlling the condos with the best views, the top floors, the ones around the pool, and of course ignore the ones with the worst reputation.
> 
> Once complete condos are dedicated to the new system who get's the newest furniture, rugs, appliances, carpet shampoos, and the best maids - take a guess.
> 
> I doubt that folks who belong to the new system will ever get to hear the beeping Dumpster hauling truck at 5 AM.
> 
> Something to think about...


You really like to stir the pot, Perry. I can see them doing that and sell it as a fixed week/unit year-round to a wealthy timeshare owner but not as a regular condo owner. There is a timeshare HOA involved.  We may not even be part of the new floating point system unless we convert first to a floating week. We can do it according to the contract.


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## taffy19

DanCali said:


> Any prospectus of an IPO or a 10K filing is littered with risk factors describing why you might lose money. These are all CYA clauses... That doesn't mean one buys to lose money. One also shouldn't buy a timeshare if they don't think it saves money versus renting.
> 
> Developer timeshares are pitched as saving money versus rentals (the Worldmark pitch is "pay for it once and vacation forever"), but I've been to 6-8 presentations, and have yet to meet the salesperson who tells me that my "investment" is worth much less 7 days later. The reality is that if people factored in all the costs, it is impossible to justify a retail purchase financially. Any new points system will not be much different in that regard.
> 
> Let me give you an example (and you can substitute the numbers at your respective resort). I believe the retail cost of a Platinum NCV is currently around $26K (maybe slightly higher - I lost track with the 15%-20% discounts running these days).
> 
> Cost #1: MFs + taxes is around $1000/year
> 
> Cost #2: Opportunity cost of initial investment - I use 4% because in most economic times you can get this rate almost risk free in a 5 year CD or treasuries. In the case of NCV it is also about $1000
> 
> Cost #3: Immediate depreciation of investment - The Platinum NCV resells for 11K these days. So you lose $15K of your investment the moment you buy. Amortize that if you will over 15 years and that another $1000/year (this is conservative because you incur that cost upfront and I ignored time value of money).
> 
> So assuming no MF increases over the next 15 years (also very conservative... and wishful thinking), the cost of owning a retail Platinum NCV is around $3000 a year. I doubt many owners would buy retail if they realized this was the true cost of ownership.
> 
> With a resale purchase Cost #3 doesn't exist, and Cost #2 is lower (less money upfront) so the overall cost is lower. A resale purchase is just easier to justify financially. Notice that is resale prices were higher, retail prices are easier to justify because there would be much less disparity between retail and resale cost. It is in Marriott's interest to keep resale prices high...
> 
> So why do people buy retail? (i) Because Marriott has great salespeople who have a great sales pitch and also convince them that $1250 worth of Marriott points (the cost for a couple to buy 100K points from Marriott) are worth 5-10 times more than $1250, and (ii) because the wording in the purchase documents is vague enough that when they say for example "you cannot sell the same product you buy because hotel points won't transfer," many people don't realize this actually means "your investment is worth much less the moment you walk out the door"...
> 
> I'm not sure about others here, but I bought my timeshares to save money versus the alternative of renting comparable accommodations. To me, that is a financial investment decision - just like any other "lease versus buy" decision. If others buy for other reasons that's great too - but I am not sure how many would buy retail if they realized the financial implications of that decision... We may all get a second chance soon enough.


I didn't mean a prospectus of an IPO or a 10K filing that is littered with risk factors describing why you might lose money.

I meant a purchase contract that people sign when they buy a timeshare from the developer. As a re-sale buyer, you probably never saw all the documents that a direct buyer has to sign even without getting a loan. It is supposedly for our protection but leave it up to the Government to do a "great job" as usual by leaving out the most important warning to a new buyer that a timeshare is almost worthless the moment you have signed the contract. That's what I meant.

People expect that timeshares hold their value because they are real estate supposedly while people do not expect this when they buy a pre-owned or second hand car. 

I wished the Government would keep their nose out of private business so that competition is working properly and the company with the best product and price and that treats their customers well will be the winner as their customers will keep buying when a better product comes around.  This is a win win situation for everyone involved.

The way it is now is that the Corporations with the smartest attorneys will win because they can outsmart the Government with their legalese. Read the fine print when you sign a contract!!!


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## DanCali

iconnections said:


> I didn't mean a prospectus of an IPO or a 10K filing that is littered with risk factors describing why you might lose money.
> 
> I meant a purchase contract that people sign when they buy a timeshare from the developer. As a re-sale buyer, you probably never saw all the documents that a direct buyer has to sign even without getting a loan.



I saw those documents when I bought from Starwood. Fortunately I discovered TUG in time.

And I meant what I said about similarities to an IPO prospectus. All that legalese is CYA language yet timeshares are not sold as losing propositions to buyers... They are sold as a tool to save money in the long run.

Here are three key Statements from the Starwood documents:

- Your membership in the Starwood Vacation network cannot be transferred to a resale buyer. Membership in SVN may not be available to your resale buyer or may be available for a fee as determined from time to time.

This is a very roundabout way to say "the $55K product you bought is worth much less of the resale market"

- It is the policy of the Seller and its broker not to enter into oral agreements or make policy or representations that are not stated in the Contract Documents. You should not rely on any oral agreements or promises in making your decision to buy your VOI.

This is a polite way to say that "much of what the salesperson told you is bs and you cannot sue us if MFs rise by more than the CPI rate, like 30% a year..."


And here is the one Dean alluded to:

- Your VOI is for your use and enjoyment. The Seller makes no representations about your VOI's potential for future profit, rental income, tax benefits, investment potential or other financial advantages.

"No representations" doesn't mean one should assume it's worthless... It just means "don't sue us when you discover it's worthelss..."

Since it seems some people actually take this clause as a carte blanche for Marriott to decimate resale prices at will, or justification why Marriott shouldn't care about resale prices, let's see what Google said... 

Google also never made any representations about future profit. They actually sounded a lot more negative than timeshare developers about their future.  These are some selected quotes from Google's IPO prospectus: (for a full reading, and many more risk factors,click here)

*Risks related to IPO 

(do any of these sound familiar - yet do people invest thinking they lose 100%?):
*


Our stock price could decline rapidly and significantly.


The auction process for our public offering may result in a phenomenon known as the “winner’s curse,” and, as a result, investors may experience significant losses.


The auction process for our initial public offering may result in a situation in which less price sensitive investors play a larger role in the determination of our offering price and constitute a larger portion of the investors in our offering, and, therefore, the offering price may not be sustainable once trading of our Class A common stock begins.


Successful bidders should not expect to sell our shares for a profit shortly after our Class A common stock begins trading.


Our initial public offering price may have little or no relationship to the price that would be established using traditional valuation methods, and therefore, the initial public offering price may not be sustainable once trading begins.


If research analysts publish or establish target prices for our Class A common stock that are below the initial public offering price or then current trading market price of our shares, the price of our shares of Class A common stock may fall.


Our stock price may be volatile, and you may not be able to resell shares of our Class A common stock at or above the price you paid.


Future sales of shares by our stockholders could cause our stock price to decline.

*And then you have lots more Risks related to Business and Industry:
*

[*]If Microsoft or Yahoo are successful in providing similar or better web search results compared to ours or leverage their platforms to make their web search services easier to access than ours, we could experience a significant decline in user traffic. Any such decline in traffic could negatively affect our revenues.
[/LIST]


There has been a trend toward industry consolidation among our competitors, and so smaller competitors today may become larger competitors in the future. If our competitors are more successful than we are at generating traffic, our revenues may decline.


We expect that large advertisers will continue to focus most of their advertising efforts on traditional media. If we fail to convince these companies to spend a portion of their advertising budgets with us, or if our existing advertisers reduce the amount they spend on our programs, our operating results would be harmed.


We expect that in the future our revenue growth rate will decline and anticipate that there will be downward pressure on our operating margin.


As our organization grows, and we are required to implement more complex organizational management structures, we may find it increasingly difficult to maintain the beneficial aspects of our corporate culture. This could negatively impact our future success. In addition, this offering may create disparities in wealth among Google employees, which may adversely impact relations among employees and our corporate culture in general.


We have also been notified by third parties that they believe features of certain of our products, including Google WebSearch, Google News and Google Image Search, violate their copyrights. Generally speaking, any time that we have a product or service that links to or hosts material in which others allege to own copyrights, we face the risk of being sued for copyright infringement or related claims. Because these products and services comprise the majority of our products and services, the risk of potential harm from such lawsuits is substantial.


We are exposed to the risk of fraudulent clicks on our ads by persons seeking to increase the advertising fees paid to our Google Network members...


All of our executive officers and key employees are at-will employees, and we do not maintain any key-person life insurance policies. The loss of any of our management or key personnel could seriously harm our business.


We have a short operating history and a relatively new business model in an emerging and rapidly evolving market. This makes it difficult to evaluate our future prospects, may increase the risk that we will not continue to be successful and increases the risk of your investment.


If we account for employee stock options using the fair value method, it could significantly reduce our net income.

If we always took all these types of clauses at face value we'd just keep our money under the mattress...

Long post, but I hope I made my point.


----------



## Starbucks

As we have only a few days left it might be an interesting idea to open up a small poll on TUG to see what the majority of informed MVCI owners is thinking what is going to hit us next week.

My personal guess is the new programm is based on the AP system. There might be a few minor adjustments but the main ideas will be used. Honestly when i first went to that AP presentation i was like "Jeez! What are those guys trying to sell me?". Nowadays i am still :hysterical: about 98% of that system. I don´t think that more than 5% of Tuggers will like what they see next week.

As for the loopholes/smart buyers. I am also with Boccabum that one should go where the current developer money and inventory is and say goodbye as soon as the party gets too crowded. So finding an opportunity to get those 10,000 or whatever amount of points is needed to get some of those 2BDR Flexchanges during the next few years might be a reasonable approach IF one is flexible.

Would i exchange my weeks into points under the current AP rules ? You bet not. 

MVCI is likely trying to dry out the inventory in II and they might be successful doing that in a few years. Also MVCI is likely to tweak around with maintenance fee calculations hitting resistant week owners ("outlaws") with higher fees. However i am still optimistic that in the long run, after the new programm went through the first "enhancements", an old week is much more valuable than some points.


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## m61376

iconnections said:


> Rack rates are a *farce*! We just spent nine days back East and one Marriott had a rack rate of $1,500 per night. Who would pay that? We used MRPs instead  because we would never pay that rate.
> 
> We then went to the Marriott New York Marquis and used a few nights on MRPs too but still had to pay for one night ourselves because there were no MRPs available. We paid just over $400 for the night with the tax included. We couldn't afford many nights like that and I forgot to look what the rack rate was at this hotel but probably even more yet than $1,500 per night as in Washington, DC.  I may be wrong but I believe that hotel rates change often too because of supply and demand at that particular moment.
> 
> We also noticed in the elevators that most people were foreigners and not English speaking when we were there. Their standard of living may be higher than ours so their hotel rates are higher too and this hotel wasn't expensive for them.
> 
> Only real rates count if you want to have that type of system but it still has something to do with the standard of living in other countries because it may become a global point system. I am only speculating again and we will know soon enough.



Interesting...yet those that tout the advantage of the trading for points perk of direct purchasers use that very figure to value the benefit of the fabulous vacations they've taken. 

Yes, hotel rates do fluctuate, but at any given moment comparing the rates between different properties at the same point in time is an objective relative evaluation of real time value. It doesn't matter if you (or I) would pay those rates- clearly, many people book directly through Marriott and do. 

It doesn't matter if it is relatively cheaper for a visitor from Japan because of their relative standard of living; clearly the supply and demand around the world is reflected simply in the prices being charged. What Marriott currently charges to rent a room or a villa already reflects fees in a global system of worldwide properties. In reality, Marriott doesn't care what nationality their occupant is, as long as they pay the bill. That's why your issue of affordability based on the American standard of living versus a foreign one isn't applicable here. Value is determined by relative demand and supply, and the pricing already in place (Marriott rental rates) systematically wide reflects that.

Like Perry, I feel that this is the only truly accurate and, thus, fair reflection of value (unless they were to do property appraisals, but since they already have these figures easily accessible why reinvent the wheel?). However, whether they will take the high road and actually use them is another matter, because the very fact that it forces them to set point values objectively and impedes their manipulation of them for sales purposes may very well preclude them from using an objective basis for valuation. But, imho, If they did, it would go a long way towards convincing me that this truly was the best system and that Marriott developed something really beneficial for owners and not only their bottom line.


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> I think you misunderstood me when I suggested that market prices reflect demand- I was referring to market rental rates- the average rental rates that Marriott charges for a given unit during a given time period (season). They've already quantified the market demand in rental rates, and the comparative demand between different properties is likewise already calculated. That's why I suggested the rental rates would make a fair evaluative tool.
> 
> Of course, as DanCali suggested, GV owners might not think that was fair because they might come up on the short end of the stick. Regardless of what system they use, there are bound to be winners and losers, and I can understand the concern about that. I am just suggesting that using an objective quantification of value rather than some sales driven and variably formulation would be a more accurate reflection of what true value was. What better reflection of value than what others are willing to pay Marriott to rent the same week?


Yes I did misunderstand, thanks.  They have a fair amount of info for each area before they decide to build and they add to that info over time.  This includes market studies, rental rates, etc.  I'm sure they pull from the hotel arm which has a lot of data as well.  I'm sure they'll look at the actual rates and % they rent in addition, I doubt actual rack rates would have much bearing.



PerryM said:


> A reasonable question to ask is "Will Marriott dump the 13 month rule?"
> 
> Marriott doesn't need it anymore - why should they let the folks who don't play their game have it?
> 
> I guess the sales documents might mention it - but if I remember correctly that required 2 weeks consecutive or concurrent at the SAME resort.  Marriott let it spill over to mean ANY resort.
> 
> Marriott can simply enforce the documents and the whole flavor of 13 month reservations change.
> 
> My guess is that if Marriott has to keep the 13 month rule they will enforce the original definition and cut down competition.
> 
> If they can dump it they will do so faster than a salesrep who realizes that Ma and Pa bought a resale Marriott and can quote the eBay price that day.
> 
> P.S.
> If Marriott does tinker with the 13 month rule they will mention the term "Fairness".
> 
> Count how many times "Fairness" is used and that's how many times owners are getting screwed.


It is not a requirement as they have total control over the reservation options without member input.  I would expect it to go away at some point for weeks but likely not right away.  I'd doubt it's be part of any points system.


----------



## m61376

Starbucks said:


> As we have only a few days left it might be an interesting idea to open up a small poll on TUG to see what the majority of informed MVCI owners is thinking what is going to hit us next week.
> 
> My personal guess is the new programm is based on the AP system. There might be a few minor adjustments but the main ideas will be used. Honestly when i first went to that AP presentation i was like "Jeez! What are those guys trying to sell me?". Nowadays i am still :hysterical: about 98% of that system. I don´t think that more than 5% of Tuggers will like what they see next week.
> 
> As for the loopholes/smart buyers. I am also with Boccabum that one should go where the current developer money and inventory is and say goodbye as soon as the party gets too crowded. So finding an opportunity to get those 10,000 or whatever amount of points is needed to get some of those 2BDR Flexchanges during the next few years might be a reasonable approach IF one is flexible.
> 
> Would i exchange my weeks into points under the current AP rules ? You bet not.
> 
> MVCI is likely trying to dry out the inventory in II and they might be successful doing that in a few years. Also MVCI is likely to tweak around with maintenance fee calculations hitting resistant week owners ("outlaws") with higher fees. However i am still optimistic that in the long run, after the new programm went through the first "enhancements", an old week is much more valuable than some points.



Largely, I think your analysis is right, and I respect that you've had more opportunity to examine the AP program. Rolling out something akin to the AP program makes sense from a business perspective, because it would allow them to have a similar offering system-wide and combine the reservation systems. As I stated above, money is money, whether it is paid in dollars, converted from Japanese Yen, British pounds, the Euro, etc., and Marriott really doesn't (nor should they from a business perspective) care about its source. I also feel that the AP program gave Marriott a chance to dip their toes in the water, so to speak, and time to test and tweak both the offering and the reservation system, and on a smaller scale rectify issues with a dual ownership type reservation system. When I first heard of the AP program a few years back I felt it was a trial run, so your premise is based on a good foundation.

The only part I disagree with is: "MVCI is likely to tweak around with maintenance fee calculations hitting resistant week owners ("outlaws") with higher fees." legally, whatever fees set by each HOA must be paid, either by the week owner or by an allocation from the Marriott point trust MF's. But, for argument's sake, if the HOA sets the MF at 1k, the weeks owner pays 1K and Marriott must reimburse the HOA 1k for each week in the points system. Now, how Marriott charges the points owner can be manipulated; under the weeks system, every owner pays the 1K per week, regardless of season owned. Under the points system, a Platinum week may be allotted 40,000 points, a Gold week 30,000, a Silver 20,000 and a Bronze 10,000, for argument's sake. If Marriott has those 4 weeks in their points system, they must turn over 4K to the HOA for those 4 weeks. However, they do not have to charge each of those owners $1000 as they do now. The Platinum week owner may be charged $1600, the Gold $1200, the Silver $800 and the Bronze $400, reflecting their relative point ownership. The HOA still gets their 4K from the 4 weeks, but now the season owned impacts the distribution of charges. 

BUT- Marriott cannot arbitrarily charge resistant owners, who retain their weeks, a higher portion of the carrying charges, since MF's are divided evenly amongst ownership weeks. IF Marriott was to tweak the system, as you suggest, and increase the MF's for weeks owners, it would similarly have to assess point owners to cover those fees.

The bigger issue is how will Marriott determine MF's? In the AP program, MF's are uniform across the board, so that, in effect, everyone absorbs the cost of higher MF properties. In the old system, a lower season owner paid less to purchase, but still received one week of use and since the cost of running the resort is relatively the same (of course, there are some different variables depending on time of year) across the year, so the expenses are divided evenly. In the AP system, the purchase price is determined by the number of points purchased, the size of the unit they can get is determined by the number of points owned, the property location and value, the size of the unit and the time of the year. MF's are based on the number of points owned, period. So if you own more points, presumably you get to reserve more- whether more time, a bigger unit, or a more premium location or season- but you also pay more, both up front to purchase and on a on-going basis (higher MF's). I can see the equity argument from both perspectives; I think the rub here is int he switch mid-stream. 

In the AP program, I can assume Platinum owners are happy that they get significantly more points, but aren't so thrilled about now paying the lion's share of the MF's. New points purchasers probably view that as making sense and being fair, because Bronze week owners are no longer purchasing the same 1 week use in a 2BR unit that the Platinum week owners are, just paying less up front to use in a lesser season. The point equivalent of a Bronze week will now likely be perceived as having a more realistic value, and buyers will feel they should pay the MF's accordingly, especially since the illusion Marriott promoted during sales of easy trades through II, using the lock off to trade into a 1BR or even a 2BR at another time, will no longer be there. What you own and what you get will clearly be there on the points chart, and salespeople will no longer be able to sell the elusive dream of easy up-trades.

The high MF Hawaii owner will likely like the system wide calculation of MF's, but Plat, week owners at other high value resorts may not appreciate paying the lion's share of the MF's. For Hawaii owners it is a win-win situation- all the weeks are already Plat. , with a few Plat. Plus, so dividing the MF's amongst seasons will have little difference, but since their MF's are on the high side, they will come down and the Manor Club, Branson and Orlando owners, etc., who have lower MF's, will basically be subsidizing the higher fees elsewhere.


----------



## m61376

Dean said:


> Yes I did misunderstand, thanks.  They have a fair amount of info for each area before they decide to build and they add to that info over time.  This includes market studies, rental rates, etc.  I'm sure they pull from the hotel arm which has a lot of data as well.  I'm sure they'll look at the actual rates and % they rent in addition, I doubt actual rack rates would have much bearing.



But, Dean, don't rack rental rates already take that market analysis into account, and reflect market conditions in an area? The law of supply and demand dictates the prices set for a business to sustain itself; Marriott's average rental rates (including their average discounted rates where they apply) are set to maximize their rental and takes into account all those studies. The reality is, if they can get $500 for a July room in HH they will charge it, and if they can only get $250 for the same week elsewhere, that's all they will charge (I'm just making up numbers here for illustrative purposes). They charge $850 for a villa in Aruba in January because people are willing to pay it, or 1K plus for a holiday ski week. You and I may not be willing to pay it, but that's what the market dictates they're worth, because in many cases those villas are sold out. Last Feb. I needed another room, and I was shocked to see what the minimum prices I could find for any of the Marriott Aruba properties, and some of the options were sold out for the dates I needed. Clearly, people rented them and were paying the rates. Not everyone uses Priceline; a lot of people like to know where they are going.

And, yes, it is true that rack rental rates get discounted, but more or less the discounts are across the board. My guess is that the rates are set such that every property gets a high percentage of their posted rates, and that percentage is probably very similar averaged over time. Marriott doesn't just arbitrarily assign a rack rate; the rates already reflect supply, demand, location, quality, etc.. That's why I feel they are probably the most objective assessment.


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning...

Crystal ball time again...

If platinum maintenance fees go up by 60% (such as the example of $1000 to $1600) in the previous post, I don't believe there will be many conversions.  MVCI needs the plat. weeks in the system.  They have plenty of November Orlando weeks already in the system for points.  They need the ski weeks, summer in HHI and winter in Florida to "sell the dream".  Any system is going to be setup initially to entice the owners of these weeks to jump in!!!

My current MF's for my 2 ey and 3 eoy's are $4.7K/year.  If this jumps to $7.1K, I will be enjoying home unit usage and trading with II and hoping for the best. 

A side benefit might be an INCREASE in resale values.  You can snag a ski week on resale for 1/2 costs + $1000 in MF's in contrast to paying full value retail to purchase enough points to access a ski week + $1600 in MF's. The deeded week might look pretty sweet...


----------



## hipslo

dougp26364 said:


> While it wouldn't surprise me to not see the 13 month rule in any new points based system, I would imagine that the 13 month rule for mult. week owners will remain in place for those that stay in the weeks based exchange system.



If Marriott wants to incent existing weeks owners to convert to points it wouldnt make much sense for them to continue to allow conversion "hold outs" to benefit from the 13 month rule.  I wouldnt be all that surprised to see the elimination of the 13 month rule as a major part of making weeks owners "an offer they can't refuse".


----------



## taffy19

m61376 said:


> Interesting...yet those that tout the advantage of the trading for points perk of direct purchasers use that very figure to value the benefit of the fabulous vacations they've taken.
> 
> Of course they do because they have to justify the purchase they made but it feels good to spoil yourself and stay in a nice hotel in a special place and fly first class.  How many people would do this on a regular basis unless money is no object at all. Everyone spends their money in a different way and why not? It's their money.
> 
> Yes, hotel rates do fluctuate, but at any given moment comparing the rates between different properties at the same point in time is an objective relative evaluation of real time value. It doesn't matter if you (or I) would pay those rates- clearly, many people book directly through Marriott and do.
> 
> We booked directly through the Marriott and we didn't pay the rack rate either in NYC. We have never paid them at any hotel we have stayed in the USA so far. They may charge them when something special is going on so they are not accused of price gouching.
> 
> It doesn't matter if it is relatively cheaper for a visitor from Japan because of their relative standard of living; clearly the supply and demand around the world is reflected simply in the prices being charged. What Marriott currently charges to rent a room or a villa already reflects fees in a global system of worldwide properties. In reality, Marriott doesn't care what nationality their occupant is, as long as they pay the bill. That's why your issue of affordability based on the American standard of living versus a foreign one isn't applicable here. Value is determined by relative demand and supply, and the pricing already in place (Marriott rental rates) systematically wide reflects that.
> 
> I would think that the new point system has to appeal and seem to be fair to the Americans, European as well as the Asians or whatever Nations they have their resorts in that belong to the new point system or they may keep them separate like they are now and do not have to worry about it. One global system sounds more simple to me than two. Did you see the resorts lumped together in this web page or was that already before like that?
> 
> Like Perry, I feel that this is the only truly accurate and, thus, fair reflection of value (unless they were to do property appraisals, but since they already have these figures easily accessible why reinvent the wheel?). However, whether they will take the high road and actually use them is another matter, because the very fact that it forces them to set point values objectively and impedes their manipulation of them for sales purposes may very well preclude them from using an objective basis for valuation. But, imho, If they did, it would go a long way towards convincing me that this truly was the best system and that Marriott developed something really beneficial for owners and not only their bottom line.


My answers to you are in blue. I will be so happy when they roll out their new system and we can stop guessing.  I am sitting here waiting for my updates so may as well speculate.


----------



## indyhorizons

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> Crystal ball time again...
> 
> If platinum maintenance fees go up by 60% (such as the example of $1000 to $1600) in the previous post, I don't believe there will be many conversions.  MVCI needs the plat. weeks in the system.  They have plenty of November Orlando weeks already in the system for points.  They need the ski weeks, summer in HHI and winter in Florida to "sell the dream".  Any system is going to be setup initially to entice the owners of these weeks to jump in!!!
> 
> My current MF's for my 2 ey and 3 eoy's are $4.7K/year.  If this jumps to $7.1K, I will be enjoying home unit usage and trading with II and hoping for the best.
> 
> *A side benefit might be an INCREASE in resale values.  You can snag a ski week on resale for 1/2 costs + $1000 in MF's in contrast to paying full value retail to purchase enough points to access a ski week + $1600 in MF's. The deeded week might look pretty sweet..*



Not that I am looking for another week, but don't you think that would be an example when Marriott would then exercise ROFR to avoid this transaction? I don't know if the great weeks that Perry has predicted will sell for $1 on ebay on or about June 17, so I'm not going to hold my breath either way.


----------



## PerryM

*Bye bye Platinum, Gold, and Silver - Hello Platinum, Gold, and Silver...*

I don't know how voting rights at a particular Marriott resort will work anymore - bye bye owner controlled HOA?

You turn in your Platinum 2BR Summit Watch, your Gold 2BR MountainSide, and a 2BR Platinum at MOC and get a whole bunch of Points.

What happens to your Proxy at each of the resorts?  Do you get to vote or does Marriott get control of the Proxies somehow.  If there are laws about the developer taking over again, well that's why there are less than brilliant brother-in-laws....

Speaking of Platinum, Gold, and Silver just what level of Points is needed to attend these lofty memberships?

In my guess at Marriott taking control of individual condos and perhaps the HOA in some way how about upgrading some condos to Platinum membership level with better furnishings and much better cleaning and better service from the staff.

How about Platinum Members Only check-in lines at the front desk?  How about a van dedicated to Platinum Members Only to whisk them around the nearby area?

Say goodbye to the old days where every owner was treated the same and say hello to a caste system where some owners are much better people than others....

P.S.
And of course Platinum Members get automatic late check-out at Noon and early check-in at 2 PM.  The cleaning staff must get the special Platinum rooms ready first.  Expect a Platinum Only concierge service to stock the fridge and get those freebie dessert coupons to Ruth's Chris in a welcoming basket to greet the Platinum owners.

To all those here that say "Marriott has the right..." - you're right....


----------



## indyhorizons

PerryM said:


> I don't know how voting rights at a particular Marriott resort will work anymore - bye bye owner controlled HOA?
> 
> You turn in your Platinum 2BR Summit Watch, your Gold 2BR MountainSide, and a 2BR Platinum at MOC and get a whole bunch of Points.
> 
> What happens to your Proxy at each of the resorts?  Do you get to vote or does Marriott get control of the Proxies somehow.  If there are laws about the developer taking over again, well that's why there are less than brilliant brother-in-laws....
> 
> Speaking of Platinum, Gold, and Silver just what level of Points is needed to attend these lofty memberships?
> 
> In my guess at Marriott taking control of individual condos and perhaps the HOA in some way how about upgrading some condos to Platinum membership level with better furnishings and much better cleaning and better service from the staff.
> 
> How about Platinum Members Only check-in lines at the front desk?  How about a van dedicated to Platinum Members Only to whisk them around the nearby area?
> 
> Say goodbye to the old days where every owner was treated the same and say hello to a caste system where *some owners are much better people than others*....



Perry, apparently some of us are already better people than others.  According to wuv pooh, those of us who dared to buy resell are <gasp> deadbeats.  I guess since I own 2 eoy developer purchased and 1 resell, I must be half a deadbeat.  Maybe just "dead"...?


----------



## m61376

iconnections said:


> We booked directly through the Marriott and we didn't pay the rack rate either in NYC. We have never paid them at any hotel we have stayed in the USA so far. They may charge them when something special is going on so they are not accused of price gouching.
> My answers to you are in blue. I will be so happy when they roll out their new system and we can stop guessing.  I am sitting here waiting for my updates so may as well speculate.



Maybe I should have been clearer- I was suggesting the average rate that Marriott charges on their website for a given size unit in a given season. I would suspect that, on average, the same percentage of renters use various discounts (such as AAA, owner discount codes, etc) so that the posted rate generally reflects relative prices paid (if the posted rates are $300 and $200 at different properties, but the average renter gets a 20% discount, then whether you use 300 and 200 or 240 and 160 as the relative valuations the proportion is the same).


----------



## m61376

indyhorizons said:


> Perry, apparently some of us are already better people than others.  According to wuv pooh, those of us who dared to buy resell are <gasp> deadbeats.  I guess since I own 2 eoy developer purchased and 1 resell, I must be half a deadbeat.  Maybe just "dead"...?



Or maybe you just learned to "beat" the system (or at least beat them at their own game):hysterical:


----------



## PerryM

indyhorizons said:


> Perry, apparently some of us are already better people than others.  According to wuv pooh, those of us who dared to buy resell are <gasp> deadbeats.  I guess since I own 2 eoy developer purchased and 1 resell, I must be half a deadbeat.  Maybe just "dead"...?



If Marriott is going to throw out 20 years of timesharing I'm betting they will totally revamp how they look at timeshares and integrate it into their other products and services they offer.

If my goal was to take 400,000 customers and mold them into my vision of timesharing for the next 20 years I'm going to make some pretty big changes right now.

And yes, I'm thinking "They will love it!"


----------



## indyhorizons

m61376 said:


> Or maybe you just learned to "beat" the system (or at least beat them at their own game):hysterical:



touche`.


----------



## wuv pooh

indyhorizons said:


> Pooh, I guess we are all deadbeats then, as someone as already gracefully pointed out, there is no such thing as a new timeshare, in the general sense of the word...



That is the goal   I know that I personally have taken far more out of the system than any measure of "comparable" would support in the last 10 years.  Hopefully the gravy train will last, but there is always another train.


----------



## taffy19

m61376 said:


> Largely, I think your analysis is right, and I respect that you've had more opportunity to examine the AP program. Rolling out something akin to the AP program makes sense from a business perspective, because it would allow them to have a similar offering system-wide and combine the reservation systems. As I stated above, money is money, whether it is paid in dollars, converted from Japanese Yen, British pounds, the Euro, etc., and Marriott really doesn't (nor should they from a business perspective) care about its source. I also feel that the AP program gave Marriott a chance to dip their toes in the water, so to speak, and time to test and tweak both the offering and the reservation system, and on a smaller scale rectify issues with a dual ownership type reservation system. When I first heard of the AP program a few years back I felt it was a trial run, so your premise is based on a good foundation.
> 
> The only part I disagree with is: "MVCI is likely to tweak around with maintenance fee calculations hitting resistant week owners ("outlaws") with higher fees." legally, whatever fees set by each HOA must be paid, either by the week owner or by an allocation from the Marriott point trust MF's. But, for argument's sake, if the HOA sets the MF at 1k, the weeks owner pays 1K and Marriott must reimburse the HOA 1k for each week in the points system. Now, how Marriott charges the points owner can be manipulated; under the weeks system, every owner pays the 1K per week, regardless of season owned. Under the points system, a Platinum week may be allotted 40,000 points, a Gold week 30,000, a Silver 20,000 and a Bronze 10,000, for argument's sake. If Marriott has those 4 weeks in their points system, they must turn over 4K to the HOA for those 4 weeks. However, they do not have to charge each of those owners $1000 as they do now. The Platinum week owner may be charged $1600, the Gold $1200, the Silver $800 and the Bronze $400, reflecting their relative point ownership. The HOA still gets their 4K from the 4 weeks, but now the season owned impacts the distribution of charges.
> 
> BUT- Marriott cannot arbitrarily charge resistant owners, who retain their weeks, a higher portion of the carrying charges, since MF's are divided evenly amongst ownership weeks. IF Marriott was to tweak the system, as you suggest, and increase the MF's for weeks owners, it would similarly have to assess point owners to cover those fees.
> 
> The bigger issue is how will Marriott determine MF's? In the AP program, MF's are uniform across the board, so that, in effect, everyone absorbs the cost of higher MF properties. In the old system, a lower season owner paid less to purchase, but still received one week of use and since the cost of running the resort is relatively the same (of course, there are some different variables depending on time of year) across the year, so the expenses are divided evenly. In the AP system, the purchase price is determined by the number of points purchased, the size of the unit they can get is determined by the number of points owned, the property location and value, the size of the unit and the time of the year. MF's are based on the number of points owned, period. So if you own more points, presumably you get to reserve more- whether more time, a bigger unit, or a more premium location or season- but you also pay more, both up front to purchase and on a on-going basis (higher MF's). I can see the equity argument from both perspectives; *I think the rub here is int he switch mid-stream. *
> 
> In the AP program, I can assume Platinum owners are happy that they get significantly more points, but aren't so thrilled about now paying the lion's share of the MF's. New points purchasers probably view that as making sense and being fair, because Bronze week owners are no longer purchasing the same 1 week use in a 2BR unit that the Platinum week owners are, just paying less up front to use in a lesser season. The point equivalent of a Bronze week will now likely be perceived as having a more realistic value, and buyers will feel they should pay the MF's accordingly, especially since the illusion Marriott promoted during sales of easy trades through II, using the lock off to trade into a 1BR or even a 2BR at another time, will no longer be there. What you own and what you get will clearly be there on the points chart, and salespeople will no longer be able to sell the elusive dream of easy up-trades.
> 
> *The high MF Hawaii owner will likely like the system wide calculation of MF's, but Plat, week owners at other high value resorts may not appreciate paying the lion's share of the MF's. For Hawaii owners it is a win-win situation- all the weeks are already Plat. , with a few Plat. Plus, so dividing the MF's amongst seasons will have little difference, but since their MF's are on the high side, they will come down and the Manor Club, Branson and Orlando owners, etc., who have lower MF's, will basically be subsidizing the higher fees elsewhere*.


I don't know how much the bronze weeks will go up in comparison to the others but they paid the lowest upfront fee when they bought that season and now they may have to pay a little more. All points have equal value from here on. 

You say the rub is that the switch is done mid-stream but the people who bought at the oldest and least expensive resorts may start paying a little more too today and the people who paid at the newest and most expensive resort may start paying a little less when they even out the maintenance fees over all the present resorts but that has more to do with the age and quality of the resort and not the seasons.

What I am afraid of is that you will have two different systems eventually like Starwood has. You have the old system with a combination of weeks and points with the present older resorts and you will have the true point system with the newest resorts that will be built in the future. They will cost more in points as points reflect the price so you will have to buy more points to be able to go to the newer resorts. A week is no longer a week like it used to be but is it bad? It may be bad to us because we are used to a week is a week but it isn't bad to new people who can vacation by the day. It certainly is more flexible like a hotel but it will cost more too in wear and tear and upkeep and accounting, etc.

I wonder how long it will take to convert the whole system over to points only? It may take a generation or two.


----------



## Asia2000

Starbucks said:


> As we have only a few days left it might be an interesting idea to open up a small poll on TUG to see what the majority of informed MVCI owners is thinking what is going to hit us next week.
> 
> My personal guess is the new programm is based on the AP system. There might be a few minor adjustments but the main ideas will be used. Honestly when i first went to that AP presentation i was like "Jeez! What are those guys trying to sell me?". Nowadays i am still :hysterical: about 98% of that system. I don´t think that more than 5% of Tuggers will like what they see next week.
> 
> As for the loopholes/smart buyers. I am also with Boccabum that one should go where the current developer money and inventory is and say goodbye as soon as the party gets too crowded. So finding an opportunity to get those 10,000 or whatever amount of points is needed to get some of those 2BDR Flexchanges during the next few years might be a reasonable approach IF one is flexible.
> 
> Would i exchange my weeks into points under the current AP rules ? You bet not.
> 
> MVCI is likely trying to dry out the inventory in II and they might be successful doing that in a few years. Also MVCI is likely to tweak around with maintenance fee calculations hitting resistant week owners ("outlaws") with higher fees. However i am still optimistic that in the long run, after the new programm went through the first "enhancements", an old week is much more valuable than some points.



Starbucks,

You have been in and around the AP program for a while.  I am rather new to the whole thing (maybe one year).  What is your opinion on the success of the program?  What percentage of Phuket deed owners actually made the switch-over to points?  Any other thoughts, please share.


----------



## Cindala

rsackett said:


> But that Bronze owner COULD save money if they use the week the originaly bought, but the Platinum Pluss owner WILL pay more to use the week they originaly bought!
> 
> Ray



That remains to be seen on how Marriott determines the point system. I'm betting that even the bronze owner will not be able to get the week that they use to get before with the new points system.


----------



## Powerguy

PerryM said:


> A reasonable question to ask is "Will Marriott dump the 13 month rule?"
> 
> Marriott doesn't need it anymore - why should they let the folks who don't play their game have it?
> 
> I guess the sales documents might mention it - but if I remember correctly that required 2 weeks consecutive or concurrent at the SAME resort.  Marriott let it spill over to mean ANY resort.
> 
> Marriott can simply enforce the documents and the whole flavor of 13 month reservations change.
> 
> My guess is that if Marriott has to keep the 13 month rule they will enforce the original definition and cut down competition.
> 
> If they can dump it they will do so faster than a salesrep who realizes that Ma and Pa bought a resale Marriott and can quote the eBay price that day.
> 
> P.S.
> If Marriott does tinker with the 13 month rule they will mention the term "Fairness".
> 
> Count how many times "Fairness" is used and that's how many times owners are getting screwed.




The 13 month rule is tied into reservation procedures in the Declaration of Condominuim documents in many resorts and cannot be arbitrarily changed by Marriott. I any conflict between the Declaration of Condominium documents i and the reservations procedure is created, the Declaration of Condominium document prevails.


----------



## indyhorizons

Powerguy said:


> The 13 month rule is tied into reservation procedures in the Declaration of Condominuim documents in many resorts and cannot be arbitrarily changed by Marriott. I any conflict between the Declaration of Condominium documents i and the reservations procedure is created, the Declaration of Condominium document prevails.



That may be true, but as someone has already pointed out, Marriott has so graciously broadbrushed the administration of the 13month rule to allow 2 concurrent or consecutive reseervations and they don't have to be at the same resort. Additionally, I understand that the 13month rule also states for owner use, and not for exchange, how many  of us have exploited that loophole? I'm sure many if not all. So the question isn't do they have the right to abolish it, but whether they have the right (and I'd argue that they certainly do) to enforce the provision as it is written/intended.


----------



## m61376

indyhorizons said:


> That may be true, but as someone has already pointed out, Marriott has so graciously broadbrushed the administration of the 13month rule to allow 2 concurrent or consecutive reseervations and they don't have to be at the same resort. Additionally, I understand that the 13month rule also states for owner use, and not for exchange, how many  of us have exploited that loophole? I'm sure many if not all. So the question isn't do they have the right to abolish it, but whether they have the right (and I'd argue that they certainly do) to enforce the provision as it is written/intended.



I agree, but really it is a moot point wrt the reservations within the point system. Week reservations, however they are implemented (12 or 13 months), will be restricted to the owned week portion. So- if 50% of the owners convert, then 50% of every available reservation inventory belongs to points and 50% to weeks. If the 13/12 rule persists, it just means now that 25% would be released at 13 months and 25% at 12 months. Of course, those percentages will vary depending upon the membership of each group.

Of course, if Marriott ascertains that a disproportional number of weeks go to II because of the 13 month rule, and enables week owners to manipulate the system and entices them to continue being week owners rather than joining the new Marriott program, they may try to curtail the program to give owners another reason to convert.


----------



## hipslo

m61376 said:


> Of course, if Marriott ascertains that a disproportional number of weeks go to II because of the 13 month rule, and enables week owners to manipulate the system and entices them to continue being week owners rather than joining the new Marriott program, they may try to curtail the program to give owners another reason to convert.



This seems quite likely to me, in order to give the points system a better shot at getting more of the "best" weeks.


----------



## SueDonJ

indyhorizons said:


> That may be true, but as someone has already pointed out, Marriott has so graciously broadbrushed the administration of the 13month rule to allow 2 concurrent or consecutive reseervations and they don't have to be at the same resort. Additionally, I understand that the 13month rule also states for owner use, and not for exchange, how many  of us have exploited that loophole? I'm sure many if not all. So the question isn't do they have the right to abolish it, but whether they have the right (and I'd argue that they certainly do) to enforce the provision as it is written/intended.



The problem is that the 13-mo rule is written into the individual resort contracts in various forms at different resorts - some but not all specifying same resort and/or occupancy limitations.  Or as is the case at older resorts, it's not written into the contracts at all.

So MVCI as the management company has implemented the same 13-mo reservation procedure across every resort, allowing consecutive/concurrent reservations at any combination of owned resorts and broadening the definition of "... to occupy ..." to include use, rent, and exchange.  Their right to do that is supported by them being limited to only what's specifically excluded by the contracts, as Dean said.  As well, it's supported by a clause (to amend Reservation Procedures) in the Management Agreements of both SurfWatch and Barony Beach; probably a similar clause is in every resort's Management Agreement.

I don't know how far that clause extends if they were to try to abolish the 13-mo rule completely but it sure would be interesting to see how it would play out.  (Only as food for thought, it's not at all something that I want to see go away.)  Because above all else, MVCI holds the right to abolish Management Agreements if the BOD/ownership votes against or successfully challenges a management issue.


----------



## rsackett

Cindala said:


> That remains to be seen on how Marriott determines the point system. I'm betting that even the bronze owner will not be able to get the week that they use to get before with the new points system.



I would bet that a Bronze owner will have enough points to get a week in the Bronze season at their home resort.  They may not have enough points to get any Bronze week if Marriott decides that some are more valuable than others, but I bet they will have enough to get the average demand Bronze week at the resort they currently own at.

Ray


----------



## WelcomeHome

*I'm amazed by all the negativity & fear!*

OK, granted - I realize that most people don't like change. But I can't believe all the "Marriott is out to screw us" talk about a new program that hasn't even been anounced yet.

Hey, Marriott became an industry leader with a very simple philosophy - CUSTOMER SATISFACTION! What makes all you fear mongers think that Marriott suddenly intends to deviate from a formula that has brought them tremendous success for all these years?

Yes, I realize that Marriott's goal is to enhance profits - but I also realize that the best  way for them to do this is by maintaining the policy they've been using for decades - KEEPING THEIR CUSTOMERS HAPPY (and that includes all the people on this thread who have paid a premium to participate in the Marriott brand (even if you bough resale like I did -you still paid more to have a "Marriott" timeshare).

So instead of believing that Marriott is out to trick us or take unfair advantage of us with the new program, I think the successful executives at Marriott realize that the BEST way to succeed is with a WIN-WIN situation for everybody. You can call me naive, you can call me stupid - but we have no concrete reason to believe I'm wrong.

Because I believe in quality, I also own at DVC (Disney). I'm sure Marriott has also studied their very successful and simple program. It's also a points based system where I maintain my home resort priority. I book at 11 months out for my home resort or I book at 7 months out to access any of the other resorts. Disney's maintains a FIXED amount of inventory for itself while the vast majority of points is available to all owners on a first-come, first-serve basis. I can use my points for a 1 day reservation or for as many days as I'd like. I can use my points for a studio or a 1 bedroom or a 2 bedroom or a 3 bedroom depending on how many people I want to take along with me. The total amount of points allocated to each resort is FIXED and can NEVER go up! While maintenance fees do increase every year, Disney has kept increases low and very reasonable - that's because Disney also owes it's success to customer satisfaction. If I want to exchange outside of Disney, I can exchange through RCI - very similiar to the way I presently exchange with Marriott.

Is the system perfect - NO - but the vast majority of us get the exact reservations we want most of the time. Do the newer and more exotic resorts require more points per night - YES - so we either stay at the newer hotels in smaller rooms or for less nights OR we're simply happy continuing to use the existing pools that was available when we originally purchased my points (via resale, by the way). And, despite that, you'll still hear lot's of people complaining even though we have a realatively very successful and efficient system. It's a simple, PROFITABLE and very fair program and everyone (except the cronic complainers) is happy - why does anyone here think that Marriott hasn't taken notice? Why all the doom and gloom? (OK- it's fun - GRANTED!)

Fortunately we will all have our answer very soon now. I for one am expecting to be one of the many WINNERS in the new program because I think the last thing Marriott wants is an unhappy customer base.

And by the way, can somebody please tell me what Marriott's "AP program" is. It sounds like it may be a cornerstone for Marriott's new point system so I'd love to hear a quick explanation. You don't have to sugar coat it - I'm not afraid of change!

Best wishes,
Dave


----------



## PerryM

*giveth and taketh....*



Powerguy said:


> The 13 month rule is tied into reservation procedures in the Declaration of Condominuim documents in many resorts and cannot be arbitrarily changed by Marriott. I any conflict between the Declaration of Condominium documents i and the reservations procedure is created, the Declaration of Condominium document prevails.



True and past heated debates here has had lots of folks post the actual verbiage from the CCRs and as far as I remember they all stipulated the multiple weeks had to be at THAT home resort.

Marriott extended that to ANY Marriott resort and what they giveth they can taketh.


----------



## PerryM

WelcomeHome said:


> OK, granted - I realize that most people don't like change. But I can't believe all the "Marriott is out to screw us" talk about a new program that hasn't even been anounce yet.
> 
> Hey, Marriott became an industry leader with a very simple philosophy - CUSTOMER SATISFACTION! *What makes all you fear mongers think that Marriott suddenly intends to deviate from a formula that has brought them tremendous success for all these years?*
> 
> Yes, I realize that Marriott's goal is to enhance profits - but I also realize that the best  way for them to do this is by doing the same thing they've been doing for decades - KEEPING THEIR CUSTOMERS HAPPY (and that includes all the people on this thread who have paid a premium to participate in the Marriott brand (even if you bough resale like I did -you still paid more to have a "Marriott" timeshare).
> 
> So instead of believing that Marriott is out to trick us or take unfair advantage of us with the new program, I think the successful executives at Marriott realize that the BEST way to succeed is with a WIN-WIN situation for everybody. You can call me naive, you can call me stupid - but we have no concrete reason to believe I'm wrong.
> 
> Because I believe in quality, I also own at DVC (Disney). I'm sure Marriott has also studied their very successful and simple program. It's also a points based system where I maintain my home resort priority. I book at 11 months out for my home resort or I book at 7 months out to access any of the other resorts. Disney's maintains a FIXED amount of inventory for itself and the vast majority of points is available to all owners on a first-come, first-serve basis. I can use my points for a 1 day reservation or for as many days as I'd like. I can use my points for a studio or a 1 bedroom or a 2 bedroom or a 3 bedroom depending on how many people I want to take along with me. The total amount of points allocated to each resort is FIXED and can NEVER go up! While maintenance fees do increase every year, Disney has kept increases low and very reasonable - that's because Disney also owes it's success to customer satisfaction. If I want to exchange outside of Disney, I can exchange through RCI - very similiar to the way I presently exchange with Marriott.
> 
> Is the system perfect - NO - but the vast majority of us get the exact reservations we want most of the time. Do the newer and more exotic resorts require more points per night - YES - so we either stay at the newer hotels in smaller rooms or for less nights OR we're simply happy continuing to use the existing pools that was available when we originally purchased my points (via resale, by the way). And, despite that, you'll still hear lot's of people complaining even though we have a very successful and efficient system. It's a simple, PROFITABLE and very fair program and everyone (except the cronic complainers) is happy - what does anyone here think that Marriott hasn't taken notice? Why all the doom and gloom? (OK- it's fun - GRANTED!)
> 
> Fortunately we will all have our answer very soon now. I for one am expecting to be one of the many WINNERS in the new program because I think the last thing Marriott wants is an unhappy customer base.
> 
> And by the way, can somebody please tell me what Marriott's "AP program" is. It sounds like it may be a cornerstone for Marriott's new point system so I'd love to hear a quick explanation. You don't have to sugar coat it - I'm not afraid of change!
> 
> Best wishes,
> Dave



Their lips are moving?


----------



## Rush

*Do we think booking partial weeks will be possible?*



dougp26364 said:


> Thinking about shifting a little more, DVC recently did some shifting in how many points were required for certain days of the week for partial stays. However, the total number of points for any given week remained the same.



Having had followed - or at least tried to follow - this most interesting thread, one of the many Q's I have about what the anticipated changes _might_ mean has to do w whether a points system is likely to include the option of booking stays of, say, 2/3/4 nights.

And if so, whether this might extend beyond Marriott timeshare properties to staying at Marriott hotels...

My week was purchased resale, so I realize that I cannot currently trade it in for MRP's...


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> True and past heated debates here has had lots of folks post the actual verbiage from the CCRs and as far as I remember they all stipulated the multiple weeks had to be at THAT home resort.
> 
> Marriott extended that to ANY Marriott resort and what they giveth they can taketh.



Not true, Perry, that every CCR stipulates the concurrent/consecutive weeks must be at the same resort.  I believe Davidvel has posted that Shadow Ridge's docs contain that more restrictive language, but both SurfWatch's and Barony Beach's do not.

By broadening the scope to allow for 13-mo reservations of any owned weeks, they're still following the CCR's because no deeded rights are being taken away - Shadow Ridge owners, for example, can still book their consecutive/concurrent owned weeks at 13 mos.  But if they were to change the current implementation and limit the reservations system-wide to consecutive/concurrent weeks only at the same resort, they would be in violation of the CCR's at SurfWatch, Barony, and others with similar language that do not limit the reservations to the same resort.


----------



## m61376

WelcomeHome said:


> ...
> Yes, I realize that Marriott's goal is to enhance profits - but I also realize that the best  way for them to do this is by maintaining the policy they've been using for decades - KEEPING THEIR CUSTOMERS HAPPY (and that includes all the people on this thread who have paid a premium to participate in the Marriott brand (even if you bough resale like I did -you still paid more to have a "Marriott" timeshare).
> 
> So instead of believing that Marriott is out to trick us or take unfair advantage of us with the new program, I think the successful executives at Marriott realize that the BEST way to succeed is with a WIN-WIN situation for everybody. You can call me naive, you can call me stupid - but we have no concrete reason to believe I'm wrong....
> Fortunately we will all have our answer very soon now. I for one am expecting to be one of the many WINNERS in the new program because I think the last thing Marriott wants is an unhappy customer base.
> 
> And by the way, can somebody please tell me what Marriott's "AP program" is. It sounds like it may be a cornerstone for Marriott's new point system so I'd love to hear a quick explanation. You don't have to sugar coat it - I'm not afraid of change!
> 
> Best wishes,
> Dave



Dave-
In general, I wholeheartedly agree. I think Marriott will try to do right by its customers, and that public relations are very important to them. That's why I am confident that resale owners will be included, so as not to alienate that current customer base (many of whom are also direct purchasers).

That said, what Marriott considers a great program may not be what you are I consider great. Since it is basically a closed system, someone's better trade is generally balanced by someone's less than desirable one. The AP program is the Asia Pacific program, and if you search this thread alone for "Asia Pacific" you'll see lots of references. If you carefully look at the way they've valued units in that program and the $5000 per week cost to join, you'll understand why many (?most) people might not be thrilled. A Plat. Phuket owner would get enough points for perhaps 4 days in Hawaii in a similarly sized unit, even a Waiohai owner wouldn't have enough for a week in Ko'Olina, and a Ko'Olina owner wanting to exchange via II into another resort group during a peak period (not necessarily a holiday week, but any week rated at a TDI of 120 or above) would not have enough points to make the trade into a similarly sized unit (for example, you couldn't get a prime week at one of the Cancun resorts in a 2BR by trading in your 2BR Ko'Olina, let alone the 1 BR for 2BR trades many have grown accustomed to).


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> Not true, Perry, that every CCR stipulates the concurrent/consecutive weeks must be at the same resort.  I believe Davidvel has posted that Shadow Ridge's docs contain that more restrictive language, but both SurfWatch's and Barony Beach's do not.
> 
> By broadening the scope to allow for 13-mo reservations of any owned weeks, they're still following the CCR's because no deeded rights are being taken away - Shadow Ridge owners, for example, can still book their consecutive/concurrent owned weeks at 13 mos.  But if they were to change the current implementation and limit the reservations system-wide to consecutive/concurrent weeks only at the same resort, they would be in violation of the CCR's at SurfWatch, Barony, and others with similar language that do not limit the reservations to the same resort.



I'm confused; I don't believe I've ever seen ANY Marriott's CCR's intertwined with another resort - why would they do such a thing and who gave them that ability?

Maybe I'm wrong and the language exists linking one Marriott resort to another - I just don't remember ever seeing such a document.


----------



## DanCali

WelcomeHome said:


> Yes, I realize that Marriott's goal is to enhance profits - but I also realize that the best  way for them to do this is by maintaining the policy they've been using for decades - KEEPING THEIR CUSTOMERS HAPPY



Marriott customers are pretty happy with the current system... a change is really not necessary - that's what stinks here.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> I'm confused; I don't believe I've ever seen ANY Marriott's CCR's intertwined with another resort - why would they do such a thing and who gave them that ability?
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong and the language exists linking one Marriott resort to another - I just don't remember ever seeing such a document.



It isn't that the governing docs for one resort link to any other - each resort has its own set of docs established by Marriott as the Developer, and the language in all such docs is not uniform across all resorts.

But, Marriott also acts as the Management Company for each MVCI resort, and it's under that umbrella where reservation procedures, etc. are implemented uniformly across all resorts.  As long as any management practices do not prohibit any rights stipulated in even one resort's CCR's, then Marriott can and does adopt uniform practices.  Thus, at Shadow Ridge (and other resorts where the 13-mo rule is written to apply to only consecutive/concurrent weeks at the same resort) the Reservation Procedures are expanded to give those owners the same ability to use the 13-mo rule at separate resorts, as is found in the CCR's of other resorts such as SurfWatch and Barony Beach, etc.

This is loosely related to why I always question when you say that Marriott only "cleans the toilets" at your and other sold-out resorts.  The position that  Marriott holds as Manager with every MVCI resort gives them much more power than simple janitorial service, by virtue of the Management Agreements which are a component of the CCR's.


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> It isn't that the governing docs for one resort link to any other - each resort has its own set of docs established by Marriott as the Developer, and the language in all such docs is not uniform across all resorts.
> 
> But, Marriott also acts as the Management Company for each MVCI resort, and it's under that umbrella where reservation procedures, etc. are implemented uniformly across all resorts.  As long as any management practices do not prohibit any rights stipulated in even one resort's CCR's, then Marriott can and does adopt uniform practices.  Thus, at Shadow Ridge (and other resorts where the 13-mo rule is written to apply to only consecutive/concurrent weeks at the same resort) the Reservation Procedures are expanded to give those owners the same ability to use the 13-mo rule at separate resorts, as is found in the CCR's of other resorts such as SurfWatch and Barony Beach, etc.
> 
> This is loosely related to why I always question when you say that Marriott only "cleans the toilets" at your and other sold-out resorts.  The position that  Marriott holds as Manager with every MVCI resort gives them much more power than simple janitorial service, by virtue of the Management Agreements which are a component of the CCR's.



Well, Marriott has every right to say "Show me where you can do this" I don't think 13 month reservations using different resorts can be found in writing.  Maybe a newer addition to an older Marriott might interlock those two but I doubt all Marriotts now and forever are covered anywhere.  Marriott can then just enforce the CCRs and lock out owners who don't join their new scheme.

I'm not saying they are going to do this but if I were Marriott that would be a great carrot and stick all built into one.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Marriott customers are pretty happy with the current system... a change is really not necessary - that's what stinks here.



Isn't that a matter of opinion?  I would say that I'm a "satisfied" customer, because I'm getting exactly what was promised by Marriott, but it's certainly possible for me to be happier especially with exchanges.  If they roll out something that lets me get equal exchange value for my HHI 3BR weeks, which have until now only successfully gotten me 2BR weeks because of limited 3BR availability, then I'll be happy.  (And if they don't, I will continue to be satisfied.)

As well, Fletch has stated here that while he was a Marriott employee the number one complaint of owners was II.  Sure, most TUG members love the current Marriott/II system because they know how to work it to get consistent trade-ups, but TUG members aren't a majority of the MVCI ownership.


----------



## PerryM

DanCali said:


> Marriott customers are pretty happy with the current system... a change is really not necessary - that's what stinks here.



400,000 families kicking in $100 each is $40,000,000 to pay for a new Point exchange system - that makes sense.

Intertwining MVCI with all kinds of Marriott services is something just not needed - I don't remember folks here demanding the ability to turn in their week and get 7 days at a Marriott somewhere.

This new system is for Marriott's benefit and we are to pay for it - thanks a lot Marriott.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> Well, Marriott has every right to say "Show me where you can do this" *I don't think 13 month reservations using different resorts can be found in writing.*  Maybe a newer addition to an older Marriott might interlock those two but I doubt all Marriotts now and forever are covered anywhere.  Marriott can then just enforce the CCRs and lock out owners who don't join their new scheme.
> 
> I'm not saying they are going to do this but if I were Marriott that would be a great carrot and stick all built into one.



No, none of the CCR's specify that different resorts can be reserved using the 13-mo concurrent/consecutive reservation rule.  But not all of them specify that the weeks must be at the same resort, either.  The reservation system in place now does not violate any CCR's even though it is less restrictive than what's in the CCR's at some resorts such as Shadow Ridge.  A problem would come in if Marriott as the Management Company adopted a MORE restrictive system than what's in some CCR's such as SurfWatch or Barony Beach.

If they were to enforce the particular CCR's at each of the individual resorts, they would no longer be able to implement system-wide management procedures such as the reservation procedures, because the resorts all have different CCR's.  When you call you're not calling the resort direct, you're calling MVCI Owner Services.  I can't imagine that Marriott will change to a resort-specific management style, not when it can implement policies that are less restrictive than individual resort CCR's while not actually in violation of any of them.


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> Isn't that a matter of opinion?  I would say that I'm a "satisfied" customer, because I'm getting exactly what was promised by Marriott, but it's certainly possible for me to be happier especially with exchanges.  If they roll out something that lets me get equal exchange value for my HHI 3BR weeks, which have until now only successfully gotten me 2BR weeks because of limited 3BR availability, then I'll be happy.  (And if they don't, I will continue to be satisfied.)
> 
> As well, *Fletch has stated here that while he was a Marriott employee the number one complaint of owners was II*.  Sure, most TUG members love the current Marriott/II system because they know how to work it to get consistent trade-ups, but TUG members aren't a majority of the MVCI ownership.



People complain about something - if you had to find something "wrong" with the Marriott system I'd bet most Marriott employees blame II, the state governments, federal government, crazy Caribbean governments.

Then there's that damn tooth-fairy too - anyone but Marriott.

I have no doubt that the new exchange system will replace II as the #1 complaint - then what?

If the owners #1 complaint was II it took 20 years to figure this out?


----------



## PerryM

*Warning; Document Dump ahead...*



SueDonJ said:


> No, none of the CCR's specify that different resorts can be reserved using the 13-mo concurrent/consecutive reservation rule.  But not all of them specify that the weeks must be at the same resort, either.  The reservation system in place now does not violate any CCR's even though it is less restrictive than what's in the CCR's at some resorts such as Shadow Ridge.  A problem would come in if Marriott as the Management Company adopted a MORE restrictive system than what's in some CCR's such as SurfWatch or Barony Beach.
> 
> If they were to enforce the particular CCR's at each of the individual resorts, they would no longer be able to implement system-wide management procedures such as the reservation procedures, because the resorts all have different CCR's.  When you call you're not calling the resort direct, you're calling MVCI Owner Services.  I can't imagine that Marriott will change to a resort-specific management style, not when it can implement policies that are less restrictive than individual resort CCR's while not actually in violation of any of them.



As you say this is ALL up to Marriott to pick and choose what they want to define as "current policy" that is best for the new exchange system of theirs; if their going to make changes its going to be like one of those Friday night document dumps that politicians love to play.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> If they roll out something that lets me get equal exchange value for my HHI 3BR weeks, which have until now only successfully gotten me 2BR weeks because of limited 3BR availability, then I'll be happy.



And if the skim some cream off the top in the form of high demand weeks in the process that's a small price to pay...?

And likewise if the resale value of your VOIs drops 20%-40%?

A large drop in resale value is a pretty big price to pay for some extra flexibility in booking. If resale prices do drop this is a true cost of the new system, folks.

Note that the can enhance the program without penalizing resale buyers. If they need to penalize future resale buyers to sell it, this costs everyone.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> As you say this is ALL up to Marriott to pick and choose what they want to define as "current policy" that is best for the new exchange system of theirs; if their going to make changes its going to be like one of those Friday night document dumps that politicians love to play.



Yep.  And if what they can manage to do gets me a 2BR plus a few days in a 1BR, or a true 3BR, or two 2BR in something similar to II's Flexchange, or four different 1BR using something similar to II's Short-Stays ... in exchange for my 3BR, then I will be happy.  If they go even further and let me choose views then I will be over the moon.  

I do agree with you, though, that there isn't any need to extend beyond resort stays into hotel stays or airline tickets or any other doohickeys that are already covered by Marriott Rewards.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> And if the skim some cream off the top in the form of high demand weeks in the process that's a small price to pay...?



I don't know that they will skim off the top.  That's something that we can discuss if it actually happens.

But it's not necessarily a bad thing IMO if whatever they do allows more owners to be able to actually stay at their home resorts during high demand weeks, as opposed to what happens now where owners scoop up those weeks with no intention of occupying them in order to maximize their exchange value in II's system. 



DanCali said:


> And likewise if the resale value of your VOIs drops 20%-40% (because you already assume the value is zero, even though it's not)?
> 
> A large drop in resale value is a pretty big price to pay for some extra flexibility in booking. If resale prices do drop this is a true cost of the new system, folks.



This is an argument that you're having with the voices in your head, not with me.  One last time, I haven't ever said that the weeks I purchased have zero value, and I would expect that if a new internal exchange system is implemented, resale values will drop only in an amount equal to the differential in prices between adding a developer-direct and an external-resale week to the new program.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> I would expect that if a new internal exchange system is implemented, resale values will drop only in an amount equal to the differential in prices between adding a developer-direct and an external-resale week to the new program.



I would expect the same. Are you ok with this?

A I said before, they can enhance the program without penalizing resale buyers. Penalizing resales would be just to help sales, which personally I couldn't care less about even if I do opt to join the system. If they do feel the need to penalize future resale buyers to sell it, this costs everyone -  including retail buyers.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> I would expect the same. Are you ok with this?
> 
> A I said before, they can enhance the program without penalizing resale buyers. Penalizing resales would be just to help sales, which personally I couldn't care less about even if I do opt to join the system. If they do feel the need to penalize future resale buyers to sell it, this costs everyone -  including retail buyers.



But what's to be "okay" about?  If Marriott charges external resale weeks more to join the system than developer-direct weeks, it will be because they can.  I just don't get the "penalize" angle - why wouldn't we expect Marriott to go after revenue from a source that's not been available to them to this point?

The only way I would consider that they were penalizing resale buyers is if they charge initiation fees on a sliding scale basis so that the buyer's purchase price plus fee equals or is greater than the price of a developer-direct purchase.  (Say a week costs $12K direct, resale buyer pays $7K, Marriott charges $5K or more to get access to the new system.)  But that's not going to happen, I don't think.  Resale buyers will still be paying less than direct although a seller will probably have to absorb the price differential for the initiation fee - what's that been guessed at, $1K?

Would you rather that Marriott roll this out as similar to the MRP-exchange option which is not available at all to purchasers on the external resale market?  (I'd guess that if Marriott had thought about it way back when, they may have considered an initiation fee for that program, too, for resale buyers.)  This way the option is available to all owners, and Marriott taps a new revenue stream at the same time.

You know what I find interesting?  There's a thread here about some week or other going for $12K on eBay - looks to be a huge bargain considering the responses in that thread.  Everybody's so excited that somebody got a great deal, aren't they?  But nobody has mentioned that the lowest price ever for this specific week represents a devaluation, or that the seller's investment should be protected somehow.  It's not that I expect it to be mentioned because that's how timeshares work, but I just find it a little bit funny that some folks want to have things both ways depending on whether they are resale market sellers or buyers.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Would you rather that Marriott roll this out as similar to the MRP-exchange option which is not available at all to purchasers on the external resale market?



Here is what I would rather see - I would rather they charge nobody to join. Sell it as a great enhancement free for all owners to join. Then charge a $109 annual fee (like Starwood) which would include unlimited exchanges based on the number of points you have in that year (like Starwood).

With my Starwood week, I have 148K points a year which I can use for as many internal exchanges as I want/can. My $109 fee covers them all. The only caveat is I pay a housekeeping fee of $35-$75 (depending is 1BR, 2BR, or 3BR) if I make for than 2 exchanges (2 are covered for a 2BR lockoff) 

If all 400K owners join that's over $40MM a year in revenue... Maybe not all will join but if it's a great program and it's free to join it will sell itself (even without incentives). Marriott gets its revenue and we don't lose resale value. 

How is that for a win-win proposition?


----------



## NboroGirl

*Got the letter about discontinuing EOY*

I just got my email from Marriott this afternoon declaring the end of the EOY sales, showing the discounts for the EOY units.  "Every Other Year Special Ends June 16, 2010."  I was psyched because I thought it was THE notice, but it turned out to only be about the EOYs.


----------



## PerryM

*The Vomit Comet takes off next week...*



SueDonJ said:


> *Yep.  And if what they can manage to do gets me a 2BR plus a few days in a 1BR, or a true 3BR, or two 2BR in something similar to II's Flexchange, or four different 1BR using something similar to II's Short-Stays ... in exchange for my 3BR, then I will be happy.  If they go even further and let me choose views then I will be over the moon.*
> 
> I do agree with you, though, that there isn't any need to extend beyond resort stays into hotel stays or airline tickets or any other doohickeys that are already covered by Marriott Rewards.



There is no doubt that Point systems are far more flexible than week systems - I love Point systems.

Points have problems too:

Far more complex than weeks
Salesreps oversell ALL holiday weeks
Developer establishes the currency (Points) and can tinker with it

Now if Points is used not just for exchanges but to sell timeshares we have conflicts between a simple Points exchange system and really a sales system that does exchanges.

Marriott is taking a perfectly good timeshare program and turning it upside down NOT for our benefit but for theirs and we are expected to pay for all of this.

In essence, Marriott has sold out most of their resorts and made huge profits and now wants to do it all over again.

Hopefully next week we can digest what Marriott is about to vomit up.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Here is what I would rather see - I would rather they charge nobody to join. Sell it as a great enhancement free for all owners to join. Then charge a $109 annual fee (like Starwood) which would include unlimited exchanges based on the number of points you have in that year (like Starwood).
> 
> With my Starwood week, I have 148K points a year which I can use for as many internal exchanges as I want/can. My $109 fee covers them all. The only caveat is I pay a housekeeping fee of $35-$75 (depending is 1BR, 2BR, or 3BR) if I make for than 2 exchanges (2 are covered for a 2BR lockoff)
> 
> If all 400K owners join that's over $40MM a year in revenue... Maybe not all will join but if it's a great program and it's free to join it will sell itself (even without incentives). Marriott gets its revenue and we don't lose resale value.
> 
> How is that for a win-win proposition?



Sounds good but I'd be shocked if Marriott implemented this without initiation fees for existing owned weeks, whether or not they're developer-direct or external resales, and whether or not the initiation fees are different according to direct v. resale.  The revenue stream for conversions (perhaps not the right word if this turns out to be an overlay system for exchanges only) is just too lucrative for Marriott to pass up.

In Starwood do you pay the $109 annual fee even if you don't exchange that year?


----------



## Fredm

SueDonJ said:


> In Starwood do you pay the $109 annual fee even if you don't exchange that year?



Yes, the fee is mandatory. But, it does include annual membership to I.I., under a master I.I. membership. I.I. deposit rules are not very owner friendly. Let's hope Marriott does not take that route.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Sounds good but I'd be shocked if Marriott implemented this without initiation fees for existing owned weeks, whether or not they're developer-direct or external resales, and whether or not the initiation fees are different according to direct v. resale.  The revenue stream for conversions (perhaps not the right word if this turns out to be an overlay system for exchanges only) is just too lucrative for Marriott to pass up.
> 
> In Starwood do you pay the $109 annual fee even if you don't exchange that year?



Yes, you pay $109 as long as your unit is part of SVN (Starwood Vacation Network) regardless of whether you exchange or use the home resort. Resale units from most resorts are not part of SVN (with the exception of the few original "mandatory resorts", where resale owners get the ability to exchange internally). As Fred mentioned, that fee also includes a corporate II account. 

Moreover, the $109 fee applies only to the 1st VOI. The 2nd is around $35 and there are no additional fees from the 3rd and beyond. Own 10 VOIs and pay less than $150 a year (and ever increasing MFs) for unlimited exchanges until you exhaust your points... If MFs were more stable and they didn't have the voluntary resorts (many of which have zero resale value) it'd be a great system.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

PerryM said:


> Marriott is taking a perfectly good timeshare program and turning it upside down NOT for our benefit but for theirs and we are expected to pay for all of this.
> 
> ...................
> 
> Hopefully next week we can digest what Marriott is about to vomit up.



All of this speculation (74 pages of it!).......conjecture.......negativity........and not one substantive detail has been formally released by Marriott. 

I'm at a loss to understand why those who think so little of Marriott do business with Marriott.


----------



## DanCali

EducatedConsumer said:


> All of this speculation (74 pages of it!).......conjecture.......negativity........and not one substantive detail has been formally released by Marriott.
> 
> I'm at a loss to understand why those who think so little of Marriott do business with Marriott.



Because Marriott timeshare sales and Marriott timeshare management may as well be two different entities as far as I'm concerned.

Sales, Resort Management, and Exchanges do not necessarily belong under the same roof.

I've never been to a Marriott timeshare sales presentation but I've seen enough other ones to know what I'm not missing... 

That said, the Starwood and Marriott resorts are great. I'm happy to pay them the management fee as long as it's fair and reasonable and I don't feel increases are excessive. I don't need or want them to sell me the timeshare or to manage my exchanges.

This new points system is nothing more than the sales organization trying to take control of things they have no business doing.


----------



## PerryM

*Final oblivion - the Marriott reality show starting next week*



EducatedConsumer said:


> All of this speculation (74 pages of it!).......conjecture.......negativity........and not one substantive detail has been formally released by Marriott.
> 
> I'm at a loss to understand why those who think so little of Marriott do business with Marriott.



I own 1 resale Gold week at Summit Watch - over the past 5 years I've parlayed it into many trips to Maui over Presidents week, Christmas week at MountainSide and Christmas week at Summit Watch.

Some say I did way too well and its about time I was put in my place.

I learned the Marriott and II way of reserving and exchanging timeshares and played by THEIR rules - they would not let me change them to benefit me even more.

Now Marriott is about to tell us "You know those 20 year old rules you bought under and used all those years - well they are dead and we have come up with another set of rules that benefit us tremendously and you will have to guess how you will do".

I don't like what Marriott is about to do and I'll have to figure out how to use my Marriott ownership starting next week.

Marriott is about to enrich their stockholders at my expense.

Some here find no problem with that, I do.  Some even are surprised that this is how timeshare developers do it so no big deal - good grief.

Can I do anything about it?  Of course not but I won't go quietly into oblivion just to enrich a stockholder.

How long until Marriott changes the rules again?  5 years, 10 years, 20 years or is it whenever they need more profit and have the ability to just change the rules to benefit themselves.

It's bad enough that our country's laws change on a dime to favor one American over another, I just find it revolting that Marriott wants to do the same to me.

P.S.

Marriott started the rumors - go blame them.  Send an eMail to the head honcho.  Blaming those of us scared out of our minds does no good.  Show us how it's done...

Look at the new iPhone 4, someone let the cat out of the bag by leaving a prototype in a bar and the rumors started.  Whose fault was that?  Today ol' Steve blew the presentation by not realizing everyone in the room was consuming bandwidth while he stumbled and bumbled around trying to find bandwidth.

If you ask me the rumors were much better and insightful than the actual news.


----------



## billymach4

*Can you imagine if....*

Nothing at all changes after next week. No announcement, no news, just business as usual!

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:


----------



## DeniseM

billymach4 said:


> Nothing at all changes after next week. No announcement, no news, just business as usual!
> 
> :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:



It could happen - when Starwood made their big change with II last August, there was no announcement for months and we basically had to piece it together ourselves.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

DeniseM said:


> It could happen - when Starwood made their big change with II last August, there was no announcement for months and we basically had to piece it together ourselves.




.



Folks:  Check out this link for an insight as to what may be happening 6/16/10



http://www.thetimeshareauthority.co...system-at-marriott-vacation-club-is-changing/




.


Actually, in reading the article again, it shows a start date of 7/16/2009, so this is actually "old news"


----------



## billymach4

TheTimeTraveler said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> Folks:  Check out this link for an insight as to what may be happening 6/16/10
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thetimeshareauthority.co...system-at-marriott-vacation-club-is-changing/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .



That is old news? Story about MRP's not new system?


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> But, Dean, don't rack rental rates already take that market analysis into account, and reflect market conditions in an area? The law of supply and demand dictates the prices set for a business to sustain itself; Marriott's average rental rates (including their average discounted rates where they apply) are set to maximize their rental and takes into account all those studies. The reality is, if they can get $500 for a July room in HH they will charge it, and if they can only get $250 for the same week elsewhere, that's all they will charge (I'm just making up numbers here for illustrative purposes). They charge $850 for a villa in Aruba in January because people are willing to pay it, or 1K plus for a holiday ski week. You and I may not be willing to pay it, but that's what the market dictates they're worth, because in many cases those villas are sold out. Last Feb. I needed another room, and I was shocked to see what the minimum prices I could find for any of the Marriott Aruba properties, and some of the options were sold out for the dates I needed. Clearly, people rented them and were paying the rates. Not everyone uses Priceline; a lot of people like to know where they are going.
> 
> And, yes, it is true that rack rental rates get discounted, but more or less the discounts are across the board. My guess is that the rates are set such that every property gets a high percentage of their posted rates, and that percentage is probably very similar averaged over time. Marriott doesn't just arbitrarily assign a rack rate; the rates already reflect supply, demand, location, quality, etc.. That's why I feel they are probably the most objective assessment.


Rack rates have some basis it's just that I feel the actual rental rates overall are more reflective of RELATIVE and ABSOLUTE value because they adjust for market forces and changing trends while the rack rate is more of an upfront guess.  Certainly a guess that has some basis, I'd agree.



puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> Crystal ball time again...
> 
> If platinum maintenance fees go up by 60% (such as the example of $1000 to $1600) in the previous post, I don't believe there will be many conversions.  MVCI needs the plat. weeks in the system.  They have plenty of November Orlando weeks already in the system for points.  They need the ski weeks, summer in HHI and winter in Florida to "sell the dream".  Any system is going to be setup initially to entice the owners of these weeks to jump in!!!
> 
> My current MF's for my 2 ey and 3 eoy's are $4.7K/year.  If this jumps to $7.1K, I will be enjoying home unit usage and trading with II and hoping for the best.
> 
> A side benefit might be an INCREASE in resale values.  You can snag a ski week on resale for 1/2 costs + $1000 in MF's in contrast to paying full value retail to purchase enough points to access a ski week + $1600 in MF's. The deeded week might look pretty sweet...


I don't think they could swing that at existing resorts but certainly could for new resorts that were points based only.  It simply depends on how they approach it.



Powerguy said:


> The 13 month rule is tied into reservation procedures in the Declaration of Condominuim documents in many resorts and cannot be arbitrarily changed by Marriott. I any conflict between the Declaration of Condominium documents i and the reservations procedure is created, the Declaration of Condominium document prevails.


Not true.  If you'll read the info on reservations in the POS, you'll see that Marriott has the right to make changes without member input.  Also, all of the older resorts do not have this options in their original paperwork and Marriott added it unilaterally.  



indyhorizons said:


> Isn't it all entitlement? My entitlement vs. Marriott's entitelment.  Why should I care what Marriott's concerns/needs are if they don't reciprocate?  We're talking about a business/entity not people/person.  You Dean, (or any other individual), I respect your right to live your life and make decisions as you see fit, as long as said decisions don't impact me negatively. Chances are, since I'm sure the chances of our lives intersecting are fairly slim, I'm sure that is not bound to happen, then we're good, and I have no beef with you.
> 
> On the other hand, Marriott may be making a decision that may impact me negatively (operative word 'may' at this point), and you're darn tootin I disagree with it. I don't have to like it, and there's nothing you can do or say to convince me that I must or even should. Nor do I have to understand. Again, I am not personally a Marriott associate or shareholder, so what Marriott does to stay profitable doesn't concern me nearly as much.  In fact, I don't care what Marriott does to stay profitable, as I don't have to stay at Marriott hotels, there are many others to choose from. On the other hand, I am owner of a product (timeshare) that when the rules change may impact me, and now I am concerned. Plain and simple.
> If you feel that's an entitlement mentality, so be it, I'm not offended. We don't even know each other.


Actually I think that in timesharing one person's choices often do affect others.  Whether it's getting the last unit for a given resort/week or the exchange that you and I were both searching for or even discussing the way we use the rules to our advantage that ends up getting taken away because it gets put to the forefront of some timeshare companies agenda.  

We could use tax examples but that might get political so lets talk timeshare maint and fees.  A resort must decide what and how much to pay for each and every item and in many cases, whether to pay for something at all.  These may include pools, workout rooms, beach access, play areas, security, midweek cleanings, etc, etc.  Not every person will use every item and many will end up paying for things they don't use.  Is this fair? Depends on the specifics for that item.  Will some be upset even if it's fair?  The answer a resounding yes for those that can't see the big picture.  I try to see the big picture in such matters.  Will we disagree on certain items? absolutely.


----------



## pharmgirl

Folks:  Check out this link for an insight as to what may be happening 6/16/10

http://www.thetimeshareauthority.co...system-at-marriott-vacation-club-is-changing/

Actually, in reading the article again, it shows a start date of 7/16/2009, so this is actually "old news"[/QUOTE]

yeah, that was great news, we get nights credit for timeshare stays -  I'm gold now because of these credits

But, think all the 'sturm and drang' over changing to points is lots of folks with not a lot to do, fun for them I'm sure, but don't know how realistic this is


----------



## grgs

indyhorizons said:


> A couple things to note, I have never had a problem booking my home resort when I wanted it. Never. Yes, you have to play the game of calling at the right time at or around 9am, and all that is inherent in that.



I'm glad to hear you're not having an issue booking your weeks.



indyhorizons said:


> Additionally, what you have stated here is only partially accurate. The 13-month rule is such that only 50% of a resorts inventory is held out for the multi-week owners.  The remaining 50% is left for the 12-month for same week. Thus what actually occurs is the multi-week owners get a crack at the prime week in question, 2ce (13 & 12 month interval), the single week owner only gets the one oppty.



I understand about the 50% inventory restriction at 13 mos.  In my prior post, I said: 

_"a good chunk of weeks has already been booked by owners with the 13 mo. advantage"_

I would define 50% of the inventory as "a good chunk." 



indyhorizons said:


> Now, of course, I do not own at say HH, or NCV, however, your broad-brushed statement implies that all MVCI owners have a degree of difficulty reserving their desired home resort, and I just don't believe that to be the truth...



I didn't mean to imply that all Marriott owners have problems reserving at their home resorts.  I said in my earlier post:

_"The one consistent complaint I have read about from Marriott owners is not being able to reserve their home resort at 12 mos. out *when trying for a peak week*."_

Again, that is something that I've never heard a Starwood owner complain about.  When trying to figure out why this would be an issue specifically with Marriott, I think it likely has to do with the desire to reserve peak weeks not just for personal use, but because of a wish to maximize trade power in II by depositing peak weeks in II, and secondarily, because "a good chunk" of the inventory is not available to single week owners when they get their first crack at making a reservation.  If I owned at Canyon Villas and was unable to make a March spring training reservation at 12 mos., I would be extremely disappointed.  This has never happened to me in all the years I have owned at Westin Kierland or Sheraton Desert Oasis.  In fact, several times I've forgotten to call first thing and still was able to get my reservations made.  I find it unlikely that Starwood owners have significantly less interest in _using _peak weeks than their Marriott counterparts.   

I am happy that you're able to make the reservations you want, and of course, it's good to hear that side as well.

Glorian


----------



## Asia2000

WelcomeHome said:


> And, despite that, you'll still hear lot's of people complaining even though we have a realatively very successful and efficient system. It's a simple, PROFITABLE and very fair program and everyone (except the cronic complainers) is happy - why does anyone here think that Marriott hasn't taken notice? Why all the doom and gloom? (OK- it's fun - GRANTED!)
> Fortunately we will all have our answer very soon now. I for one am expecting to be one of the many WINNERS in the new program because I think the last thing Marriott wants is an unhappy customer base.
> 
> And by the way, can somebody please tell me what Marriott's "AP program" is. It sounds like it may be a cornerstone for Marriott's new point system so I'd love to hear a quick explanation. You don't have to sugar coat it - I'm not afraid of change!
> 
> Best wishes,
> Dave



Hello Dave,

I guess it's easy to get caught up in the doom and gloom.  I really do hope that the owners will be happy as well.  After all, 400,000 owners offer better marketing than any tv/internet/radio/special promo campaign ever will.  I hope Marriott will keep its quality to value ratio high with the new program.

In a nutshell, the AP program costs $1.25 per point.  It is extremely expensive versus buying a resale deeded week.  There are used/resale AP programs available for anywhere between $0.80 and $1.00 per point (still lofty).  Six resorts you can book directly.  Everything else is done through II via points.  A platinum 2 bedroom costs roughly 32,000 points.  This thread is the going rate for most resorts. http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=913687#post913687  Hawaii is approx. 50% higher.  

The applicable value in the program is the 10,000 point flexchange.  With 30,000 points, it could give you 3 weeks of vacation if you are willing to book within a 59 day window.

The sales reps push the idea of converting club points to reward points at a 1:3 ratio.  If you do the math, it comes down to one platinum 2 bedroom w/full kitchen week versus 5 days at a standard Marriott studio.  One is slaughtered in the conversion concerning value.  However, some might like to give up value for an exact location (city center) etc.  However, financial sense says don't waste your club points on low value stays.  Just pay for it on the side.  It is kind of like using 10,000 Club points to rent a car for a week  (10,000 Club points could give you $1,750 worth of resort time) versus using Priceline.com for $12 a day.  

Also you can stay at the resorts for 1-3 days at basically the employee rate through something called "Express Breaks".  My theory is, why disappoint yourself with such a short stay.  I don't think you can have back yo back reservations via the "Express Breaks".

Last thing, they have "Club Connections" which allows you to use your Club points for 7 night stays (studio rooms) at a nice selection of hotels (some Ritz-Carlton).  Again, a lower value spend of your club points in most cases.

So in the end, the program looks attractive to someone who really has not done their homework (ie. what a Club point is worth versus a Marriott Reward point, etc).


----------



## m61376

Asia- The point cost in II, that you referenced in your post above, is really high:


Asia2000 said:


> I forgot to post, perhaps the most important material.  The chart for trading into II/MVCI.  The Marriott presentation book uses Low, Moderate and High.  The Marriott rep wrote Gold, Platinum and Platinum Plus next to each of these headings because all of the direct Asia resorts use Gold, Platinum and Plat +.  Perhaps Platinum is a blend of Platinum and Silver (or in some cases red and white).
> 
> GOLD or Low (TDI 50-80):
> Studio 10,000, 1bdrm 15,000, 2bdrm 23,000, 3bdrm 32,500
> PLATINUM or Moderate (TDI 80-120)
> Studio 15,000, 1bdrm 23,000, 2bdrm 32,500, 3bdrm 45,000
> PLATINUM PLUS or High (TDI 120-150+)
> Studio 27,500, 1bdrm 42,500, 2bdrm 60,000, 3 bdrm 85,000
> 
> Keep in mind the Platinum Plus is probably for Christmas, New Years and Chinese New Years for the Asian people.  Anyone who knows the II TDI index best will be able to add to this post.



While they are listing a Plat. 2BR as costing 32,500 points, many 2BR weeks in the Plat. season have TDI's greater than 120, so many would actually fall into the Plat. Plus cost category. Similarly, what they describe as Gold or low cost has the TDI of many of Marirott's Bronze of Silver weeks, with many Gold weeks having TDI's of 80-120. Using Aruba for example, more than half of the weeks sold as Plat. have TDI's >120, so would fall into Plat. Plus costs in II, and almost all the Gold weeks would fall into the Plat. range for TDI. Thus, you would need the points from almost 2 of your Plat. Phuket weeks for a single week in a 2BR in Aruba during a significant portion of the winter.

Of course, I realize that, if all the resorts were available for internal booking, then the Marriott to Marriott trades would likely not have these disparities. But, it also means that if you want to trade into a Starwood, a Four Seasons, or even one of the Royals in Cancun, for example, during a peak period using II the cost would be prohibitive. For owners in the AP program, who have to use II for most of their trades outside of the destinations in the program, I just don't see the value.

IF they introduce a similar program here, I hope enough owners take the time to analyze it carefully and don't just imbibe the kool-aid, so to speak. Marriott cannot force this down anyone's throat, and the 50 or so current resorts can chug along nicely unless the owners elect to convert. Don't get me wrong, I am hoping this is a great program, but when I look at the AP program and I've heard that it is the likely model, I do have concerns. My only hope is that IF it is like the AP model, that they will also charge the same exorbitant $5000 sign on fee, which would, imho, severely limit the number of people signing on. Call me selfish- but my hope is that the majority of owners will land up doing the same thing- whether it is joining or not joining (to be determined) so there are not inventory issues making hard to get reservations even harder.


----------



## Starbucks

m61376 said:


> For owners in the AP program, who have to use II for most of their trades outside of the destinations in the program, I just don't see the value.



Correct as there is no value...  

Thats the reason why most of the "in da know"-owners of MVCI AP simply exchange their 30k points into 3 weeks 2BDR within flexchange period. It´s using the system to your advantage similar to the famous mud season-week purchase at a ski resort and exchanging it within flexchange but with less maintenance fees and an alternate usage option if that little game comes to an abrupt end.


----------



## Asia2000

m61376 said:


> Asia- The point cost in II, that you referenced in your post above, is really high:
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am hoping this is a great program, but when I look at the AP program and I've heard that it is the likely model, I do have concerns. My only hope is that IF it is like the AP model, that they will also charge the same exorbitant $5000 sign on fee, which would, imho, severely limit the number of people signing on. Call me selfish- but my hope is that the majority of owners will land up doing the same thing- whether it is joining or not joining (to be determined) so there are not inventory issues making hard to get reservations even harder.



m,  

I could not agree more.  Hopefully all owners move in unison.  I think Marriott stands to make a lot more money this way versus a confusing program where the benefits are not clearly stated or realized across all owners.  

However, if the conversion costs to points is really low for current owners, who would by a brand new points program if they could just buy a cheap deeded week with a points conversion.  If the conversion costs are high, they will grab most likely a very low percentage which will benefit the deeded owners for at least the next several years as long as they do not play with the inventory too much.  

Do you think Marriott wants full resorts, no matter how many timeshare sales?
Would they rather have empty units, restricting upgrades?
How much does reputation matter as many of the new sales come from non-educated on timeshares type prospects?  It sounds like Starwood made some big errors in the past.  Has it really hurt them that much?  

It will be interesting to see what the new plan is.


----------



## Asia2000

*Questions for Starbucks*

Starbucks,

While you are online, I have a few questions for you.

1.  Is the AP program considered a success in the eyes of Marriott?

2.  How many deeded Phuket owners converted to points?  Ballpark percentage.

3.  Do you find it easy to flexchange into non-Marriott II resorts in Thailand?

4.  Favorite resorts in Thailand (Marriott and non-marriott)?


----------



## tiresmokindad

mm251 said:


> We attended Marriott Ko Olina presentation yesterday.  According to the sales representative, Marriott will be releasing new ownership use rules in June.  The new rules will likely change the priority of bookings for any owners that did not buy directly from Marriott.  If so, I believe the net effect would be to de-value the timeshare resale price.
> 
> Accordingly, "they are trying to protect owners that purchased directly from Marriott".  Of course, "external sales owners would still retain title, but may end up on the first floor at a time they do not wish to visit."
> 
> I have no idea if it is just a sales pitch, "telling it like it is" as the rep said, or what.
> 
> Has anyone heard this presentation?



I heard this presentation. I want to see this presentation. What day/s will be in June?


----------



## Starbucks

Asia2000 said:


> Starbucks,
> 
> While you are online, I have a few questions for you.
> 
> 1.  Is the AP program considered a success in the eyes of Marriott?
> 
> 2.  How many deeded Phuket owners converted to points?  Ballpark percentage.
> 
> 3.  Do you find it easy to flexchange into non-Marriott II resorts in Thailand?
> 
> 4.  Favorite resorts in Thailand (Marriott and non-marriott)?



1) Partly. While it does sell quite well to asian customers it is much harder to sell to europeans or americans.

2) AFAIK the number of owners who paid to convert their week into AP is very small. There are however quite a few owners who bought the minimum amount of points from AP and got their weeks converted for free. As in 1) those people are primary from the asian region / expats or people who like to play the 10k flexchange game.

3) No idea about other II resorts in Thailand or Asia. The owners i know exclusively trade into other MVCI units. Getting Phuket as a trade is quite easy if not looking for CNY week.

4) Are we talking about resorts/hotels in general or only the both Phuket MVCI resorts? Marriott as chain has some nice hotels in Thailand. My favourites are JW Khao Lak, the new Renaissance BKK as well as the Marriott Riverside. I would however never book those hotels or the AP Club connection resorts with AP points, there are way too expensive to spend them for such stays. Asian AP members think different though, they like blowing several thousand points for a one night stay in a 1 BDR suite which often sells for less than 150$ a night.


----------



## Asia2000

Starbucks,

Thank you for the responses.  Yes, the JW Khao Lak is a gem.  We stayed there as well as the Le Meridien Khao Lak.  Le Meridien is nice, but nowhere near the level of the JW (comparing similar room sizes).

Well, if the AP program does not sell well to Europeans and Americans, I would have to imagine that there will be some adjustments.  Maybe they will use big city hotels as a lure or larger roomed hotels (there are many tier II Marriotts resorts not part of MVCI).  Maybe they will use the 5 to 1 MR point exchange like they did here for the first 15 years or so.  Better than 3 to 1, but still not good.  

Again, thanks for the input.


----------



## PerryM

*Timing is everything...*

Here are just a few of the headlines that greeted me this morning:


A Very Deep Unemployment Hole
Where Are the Jobs?
Dow at Seven Month Low
$13 Trillion Debt Poised to Overtake GDP
Fears of a Double-Dip Increasing
Gold hits all time high of $1,250 an ounce

400,000 Families are now to add another title to read:

*Marriott Abandons Timeshare Weeks - Calculate Your Cost Here*

Good grief Marriott, could you have picked a worse time to ask for more money for your bottom line?


----------



## Starbucks

Asia2000 said:


> Well, if the AP program does not sell well to Europeans and Americans, I would have to imagine that there will be some adjustments.



Don´t forget that there is a huge sales disadvantage at the moment for AP. There are only a few resorts in the system which allow reservations according to the published charts. If you live in europe or the americas it means that you have to travel quite a distance to visit/re-visit your resort. In times of tight budgets not every family of 4 does like the idea to spend huge amounts of money for flying around. Much easier to sell a system where you could people tell about the opportunity to vacation at a nice location which is reachable by car or a short flight with a budget airline. That disadvantage is gone once Marriott has point charts for all MVCI resorts.

I dont think that they will offer something like Club Connections worlwide. So my guess is the only way to get into regular chain hotels is your already mentioned AP point transfer into Marriott Rewards. They most likely will introduce that option in a new system as well. However, it would be wise on Marriotts side not to set the exchange factor in stone. Keep it open and adjust it as it is needed by your sales force. Why not give the buyer who spends +50k a better exchange rate. Make him feel special...    

Personally i am within the group of people who does think that giving up your usage for Marriott reward points is not a good deal. Thats however based on the simple fact that i am in the happy position to earn enough of reward points or FF miles by my regular travel.

No need to add much more "lure". Showing first-time customers nice resorts pics and some simple point charts together with the story of the family of 6 who does spend every new years eve either in Park City or Hawai should do very well on those sales floors.


----------



## Fredm

SueDonJ said:


> You know what I find interesting?  There's a thread here about some week or other going for $12K on eBay - looks to be a huge bargain considering the responses in that thread.  Everybody's so excited that somebody got a great deal, aren't they?  But nobody has mentioned that the lowest price ever for this specific week represents a devaluation, or that the seller's investment should be protected somehow.  It's not that I expect it to be mentioned because that's how timeshares work, but I just find it a little bit funny that some folks want to have things both ways depending on whether they are resale market sellers or buyers.



Right on!


----------



## Asia2000

Starbucks said:


> Don´t forget that there is a huge sales disadvantage at the moment for AP. There are only a few resorts in the system which allow reservations according to the published charts. If you live in europe or the americas it means that you have to travel quite a distance to visit/re-visit your resort. In times of tight budgets not every family of 4 does like the idea to spend huge amounts of money for flying around. Much easier to sell a system where you could people tell about the opportunity to vacation at a nice location which is reachable by car or a short flight with a budget airline. That disadvantage is gone once Marriott has point charts for all MVCI resorts.
> 
> I dont think that they will offer something like Club Connections worlwide. So my guess is the only way to get into regular chain hotels is your already mentioned AP point transfer into Marriott Rewards. They most likely will introduce that option in a new system as well. However, it would be wise on Marriotts side not to set the exchange factor in stone. Keep it open and adjust it as it is needed by your sales force. Why not give the buyer who spends +50k a better exchange rate. Make him feel special...
> 
> Personally i am within the group of people who does think that giving up your usage for Marriott reward points is not a good deal. Thats however based on the simple fact that i am in the happy position to earn enough of reward points or FF miles by my regular travel.
> 
> No need to add much more "lure". Showing first-time customers nice resorts pics and some simple point charts together with the story of the family of 6 who does spend every new years eve either in Park City or Hawai should do very well on those sales floors.



Excellent Analysis!  I agree with the appeal to new customers.  But what about the deeded owners?  There is a lot of money to be made off of the deeded week owners.  Any thoughts on a conversion cost?  Maybe if you buy  a minimum level of points, it's free?  Any guesses would be appreciated.  

After all, Marriott probably does not want to jump in with a "brand new" never been tested system.  I agree that many aspects of the AP will be involved.


----------



## Starbucks

Asia2000 said:


> But what about the deeded owners?



To be honest, i am with the bad guys here: The amount of points your owned weeks do generate in a new system will determine how badly you are getting screwed by Marriott. Minimum points, maximum pain.

As for the change into the possible new programm. As Perry and others pointed out numerous times, big "bribes" or countdown specials will be given to deeded week owners to convert to points. Again, the more point value your week has in the new system the more willingness to offer something special for you as "our most valued" customer.


----------



## DanCali

*A glimpse of the future?*

Will we see these types of posts on the Marriott board 2-3 years from now?

Several thousand dollars down, and a few more gray hairs it'll be back to:

"All you can really count on is the continued ability to reserve your own unit at your own resort for your own week".

Oh wait - Marriott may take away home resort advantage too...


----------



## timeos2

*Deed means never having to say "what do I own?"*



DanCali said:


> Will we see these types of posts on the Marriott board 2-3 years from now?
> 
> Several thousand dollars down, and a few more gray hairs it'll be back to:
> 
> "All you can really count on is the continued ability to reserve your own unit at your own resort for your own week".
> 
> Oh wait - Marriott may take away home resort advantage too...



If you own a deeded week then the "home advantage" can never go away. Even Wastegate hasn't been able to accomplish that and while some would have you believe Marriott is quickly passing Wastegate as the worst organization in timeshare they are actually pikers in the world of owner shafting. Learning it appears, but still rank novices.


----------



## DanCali

timeos2 said:


> If you own a deeded week then the "home advantage" can never go away.



I agree. They also can't take away your trading power by changing points on you if you don't join the points system (II can change your trading power, but presumably that would be more aligned with supply and demand)

I meant that the rumor is no home resort advantage in the points system...


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Will we see these types of posts on the Marriott board 2-3 years from now?
> 
> Several thousand dollars down, and a few more gray hairs it'll be back to:
> 
> "All you can really count on is the continued ability to reserve your own unit at your own resort for your own week". ...



But that's the way it works now, which owners should know if they've reviewed the ownership docs.  Sure, with our deeded weeks we have the right to exchange either privately or through whatever company Marriott is contracted with at the time of exchange, but there is absolutely no guarantee of availability or "like for like" exchange power or anything else that may have occurred with our past exchanges.  And yes, most deeded weeks do have some value on the resale market, both external and internal with Resales-by-Marriott, but no specific amount in either market is guaranteed by Marriott.



DanCali said:


> ... Oh wait - Marriott may take away home resort advantage too...
> 
> ... I meant that the rumor is no home resort advantage in the points system...



Like John says, with a deeded week you will always have a home resort advantage.  If that disappears within any new system that a deeded-week owner chooses to join, well, again, it will be up to the owner to know the limitations of what s/he's joined.


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> But that's the way it works now, which owners should know if they've reviewed the ownership docs.  Sure, with our deeded weeks we have the right to exchange either privately or through whatever company Marriott is contracted with at the time of exchange, but there is absolutely no guarantee of availability or "like for like" exchange power or anything else that may have occurred with our past exchanges.  And yes, most deeded weeks do have some value on the resale market, both external and internal with Resales-by-Marriott, but no specific amount in either market is guaranteed by Marriott.
> 
> 
> 
> Like John says, with a deeded week you will always have a home resort advantage.  *If that disappears within any new system that a deeded-week owner chooses to join, well, again, it will be up to the owner to know the limitations of what s/he's joined.*



Spoken like a lawyer!

I'm sure that will be comfort to all those Marriott owners in shell-shock.

I guess the first thing that pops into their mind will be "Marriott has every right to screw me over - the fine print says so."

So will the Marriott owners show understanding to the lawyers or show rage over a company that pulled the wool over their eyes - legally.

We will have to wait just a week to find out how understanding the owners are to new fees and loss of their deeds and loss of the old Marriott.  In this environment I'm not sure that understanding of the legal paperwork will be their first reaction.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Like John says, with a deeded week you will always have a home resort advantage.  If that disappears within any new system that a deeded-week owner chooses to join, well, again, it will be up to the owner to know the limitations of what s/he's joined.



Timeshares are not ipods or ipads. They do not sell themselves. Selling retail timeshares is an art form that requires extremely high sales and people skills.

Now take some of the best salespeople in the industry and pit them against the 90% least educated owners. Do you think they stand a chance? Will they understand or be told what they are giving up when they are presented with arrays of options, packages, seasons, fact and figures, prices, discounts, new prices, good for today prices, points, incentives, flex vacations, free vacations and arrows pointing in 25 different directions? Let alone the unsuspecting first time buyer...


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> Spoken like a lawyer!
> 
> I'm sure that will be comfort to all those Marriott owners in shell-shock.
> 
> I guess the first thing that pops into their mind will be "Marriott has every right to screw me over - the fine print says so."
> 
> So will the Marriott owners show understanding to the lawyers or show rage over a company that pulled the wool over their eyes - legally.
> 
> We will have to wait just a week to find out how understanding the owners are to new fees and loss of their deeds and loss of the old Marriott.  In this environment I'm not sure that understanding of the legal paperwork will be their first reaction.



So tell me, Perry, where does "Buyer Beware" EVER fit in with potential buyers who are considering a purchase, or even with owners who simply do not understand what they've bought?  At what point would YOU say that owners bear some responsibility for asking the right questions and understanding the answers, before they plunk down however much money for any Marriott offering?

Geeeze, Marriott hasn't had to twist anybody's arms or knock anybody's heads together to sell a good timeshare product up to now; my guess is that IF they roll out a new internal exchange system it will be of some value to at least some current owners.  But the same caveat will apply then as should apply now - Know What You're Buying Into!  Review all the available info and then ask your questions and then decide for yourself if you like what they're offering.  That's it.  It's simple.  And it doesn't take a lawyer (   ) to figure out that it's common sense to know what you're buying.


----------



## PerryM

*Gotcha!*



SueDonJ said:


> So tell me, Perry, where does "Buyer Beware" EVER fit in with potential buyers who are considering a purchase, or even with owners who simply do not understand what they've bought?  At what point would YOU say that owners bear some responsibility for asking the right questions and understanding the answers, before they plunk down however much money for any Marriott offering?
> 
> Geeeze, Marriott hasn't had to twist anybody's arms or knock anybody's heads together to sell a good timeshare product up to now; my guess is that IF they roll out a new internal exchange system it will be of some value to at least some current owners.  But the same caveat will apply then as should apply now - Know What You're Buying Into!  Review all the available info and then ask your questions and then decide for yourself if you like what they're offering.  That's it.  It's simple.  And it doesn't take a lawyer (   ) to figure out that it's common sense to know what you're buying.



Let's get real here - 95% of the folks who bought from Marriott never took the paperwork to a lawyer to review.  I never did and in Park City the right to rescind is 5 days so by the time I got home it was too late.

Folks bought from Marriott because they knew the name and trusted the company - they don't have a lawyer on speed dial as a general rule.

They were sold a timeshare and hours were spent explaining how it all worked BEFORE they bought.  Nowhere in that briefing did a Marriott representative declare "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" - nobody gave that speech.

So Ma and Pa bought what was taught to them - a week based Marriott timeshare.

Now Marriott is going to exercise that little clause "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" and completely change Ma and Pa's definition of a timeshare as Marriott taught them.

Of course Marriott can do this to us, and of course Ma and Pa should have stopped their vacation and sought out a lawyer to review their documents before the right to rescind expired but none of them did.

Marriott will find out next week what Ma and Pa think of the Gotcha Marriott is about to pull.  Will they understand Marriott's legal team or will the feel snookered?  Let's find out.

If you look at all the political polls right now the American public seems to be really riled up with just about everything - how will they look at Marriott's sea-change?  I don't know.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Timeshares are not ipods or ipads. They do not sell themselves. Selling retail timeshares is an art form that requires extremely high sales and people skills.
> 
> Now take some of the best salespeople in the industry and pit them against the 90% least educated owners. Do you think they stand a chance? Will they understand or be told what they are giving up when they are presented with arrays of options, packages, seasons, fact and figures, prices, discounts, new prices, good for today prices, points, incentives, flex vacations, free vacations and arrows pointing in 25 different directions? Let alone the unsuspecting first time buyer...



I know you won't believe it but it really doesn't matter to me if Marriott is dealing with a first-time buyer or a TUG-experienced pro - Marriott isn't responsible for completely educating the entire population on every intricacy of how timeshares work.  Marriott's timeshare salespeople have a job to do, which is to present the product in the best light possible in order to sell it.  The folks who choose to listen to their spiel are responsible for their own actions - Marriott cannot and does not just reach right into their wallets and rob them blind.

Honestly, it's amazing to me the number of posts that I read here in which it's obvious that somebody paid a whole lot of money for a timeshare product that they just don't understand how it works.  I don't get it, will never understand it.

Your iPad example is a pretty good one, by the way, but not for the reason you picked it.  I don't understand the number of folks who bought that, either, without actually knowing what it could do for them.

(Obviously, if a Marriott salesperson completely, falsely misrepresents the product during a presentation in order to make a sale then I would feel differently.  But the subtleties engaged in by the sales staff?  Like saying, "you can exchange anywhere in the world," as opposed to, "you can exchange wherever there is availability, depending on an owner depositing his/her week for an exchange and whether your week has enough trade power compared to others who also want to exchange there, blah blah blah..."?  It's up to the buyer/owner to make sure s/he gets the detailed info for every sales point made.)


----------



## timeos2

*Only what you bought is guaranteed to last.*



PerryM said:


> So Ma and Pa bought what was taught to them - a week based Marriott timeshare.
> 
> Now Marriott is going to exercise that little clause "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" and completely change Ma and Pa's definition of a timeshare as Marriott taught them.
> 
> Of course Marriott can do this to us, and of course Ma and Pa should have stopped their vacation and sought out a lawyer to review their documents before the right to rescind expired but none of them did.
> 
> Marriott will find out next week what Ma and Pa think of the Gotcha Marriott is about to pull.  Will they understand Marriott's legal team or will the feel snookered?  Let's find out.



The flaw in this argument is that what Ma & Pa were sold DOESN'T (and can't) be changed.  The deeded rights paid for are protected by hundreds of pages of filings that absolutely limit what they bought, how it can be used and who administers it for them. The underlying product they paid for is untouchable by Marriott or anyone else. 

You are mixing items that have no relationship to the rights purchased - things like trading, additional use periods or view assignments,  how the ownership was obtained - resale or retail - into the mix. Those things were NEVER guaranteed - always optional - and thus are subject to the whims of the controlling group.  You paid nothing for those and get what you pay for. They are optional, they are subject to change, they have no basis in any ownership so depending on them for the value you perceive from your ownership is the ultimate in miscalculation. 

This whole thread has concentrated on those peripheral, non-guaranteed things that never should have been part of the purchase decision from the start. Yes people do that but they have to read the documents that make it clear what they bought & have a right to - those cannot change or be taken away - and what is being thrown in as "perks" or options that can go away at anytime and for any reason. Buy & own for the base items (own to use) and if you are happy with the value that offers you are a happy camper. Buy depending on the perks remaining to create that value and, as we see here, you eventually get burned and want to lash out that they are "robbing you". You robbed yourself by placing the value in the items you didn't buy, cannot control and are at the mercy of Marriott to supply as your value. It was optional, the new stuff is optional and no one has or will take away anything you paid your good money for. 

Far too many have done the same thing but that doesn't change the fact that all you own is in the paperwork. Trading, resale value, views, etc not specifically listed are not part and never will be. They can ask money for any or all of it - or simply stop offering it - and you have zero recourse. Thats what you bought.


----------



## PerryM

timeos2 said:


> The flaw in this argument is that what Ma & Pa were sold DOESN'T (and can't) be changed.  The deeded rights paid for are protected by hundreds of pages of filings that absolutely limit what they bought, how it can be used and who administers it for them. The underlying product they paid for is untouchable by Marriott or anyone else.
> 
> You are mixing items that have no relationship to the rights purchased - things like trading, additional use periods or view assignments,  how the ownership was obtained - resale or retail - into the mix. Those things were NEVER guaranteed - always optional - and thus are subject to the whims of the controlling group.  You paid nothing for those and get what you pay for. They are optional, they are subject to change, they have no basis in any ownership so depending on them for the value you perceive from your ownership is the ultimate in miscalculation.
> 
> This whole thread has concentrated on those peripheral, non-guaranteed things that never should have been part of the purchase decision from the start. Yes people do that but they have to read the documents that make it clear what they bought & have a right to - those cannot change or be taken away - and what is being thrown in as "perks" or options that can go away at anytime and for any reason. Buy & own for the base items (own to use) and if you are happy with the value that offers you are a happy camper. Buy depending on the perks remaining to create that value and, as we see here, you eventually get burned and want to lash out that they are "robbing you". You robbed yourself by placing the value in the items you didn't buy, cannot control and are at the mercy of Marriott to supply as your value. It was optional, the new stuff is optional and no one has or will take away anything you paid your good money for.
> 
> Far too many have done the same thing but that doesn't change the fact that all you own is in the paperwork. Trading, resale value, views, etc not specifically listed are not part and never will be. They can ask money for any or all of it - or simply stop offering it - and you have zero recourse. Thats what you bought.



If the EOY folks are told to take a hike and god knows what happens to their resale values, I doubt they will feel kindly to any of the above points of logic.

Marriott painted a picture of what a Marriott timeshare was and that was way beyond what their deed says they own.

It's really up to Marriott to sell the idea of dumping everything they taught the owners and paint a brand new picture of what a Marriott timeshare is to become.

Then to charge them to do it.


----------



## taffy19

DanCali said:


> Will we see these types of posts on the Marriott board 2-3 years from now?
> 
> Several thousand dollars down, and a few more gray hairs it'll be back to:
> 
> "All you can really count on is the continued ability to reserve your own unit at your own resort for your own week".
> 
> Oh wait - Marriott may take away home resort advantage too...


This is exactly how I feel about it too. A floating system is too iffy as they can always change the rules unless you use what you own exactly without locking it off. Then there is the question too if you will get the week and unit you really want and the view with a floating deed or in a Trust. Just look at how many posts are writtene about this on the major timeshare developer boards.

I talked to the MVCI and II yesterday but couldn't get any information from them so have decided not to deposit my week and get the bonus week as everything is just too uncertain.

I can do without that exta week but what is interesting is that the bonus week offer expires on June 20 which coincides with the date that no more deeded weeks will be sold so I don't believe that all this talk by the salesmen are rumors only as they may not know much more than we do either.

Marriott did a terrible injustice to their customers to let these rumors go wild for several years because they have caused a lot of worries to people here too or the thread wouldn't have been this long. :annoyed: I feel better now I made my decision not to depost my week. The heck with that bonus week!  I can always change my mind later as there is no hurry anymore.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> Let's get real here - 95% of the folks who bought from Marriott never took the paperwork to a lawyer to review.  I never did and in Park City the right to rescind is 5 days so by the time I got home it was too late.
> 
> Folks bought from Marriott because they knew the name and trusted the company - they don't have a lawyer on speed dial as a general rule.
> 
> They were sold a timeshare and hours were spent explaining how it all worked BEFORE they bought.  Nowhere in that briefing did a Marriott representative declare "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" - nobody gave that speech.
> 
> So Ma and Pa bought what was taught to them - a week based Marriott timeshare.
> 
> Now Marriott is going to exercise that little clause "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" and completely change Ma and Pa's definition of a timeshare as Marriott taught them.
> 
> Of course Marriott can do this to us, and of course Ma and Pa should have stopped their vacation and sought out a lawyer to review their documents before the right to rescind expired but none of them did.
> 
> Marriott will find out next week what Ma and Pa think of the Gotcha Marriott is about to pull.  Will they understand Marriott's legal team or will the feel snookered?  Let's find out.



Sorry, Perry, I'm not buying it.  We don't have any idea at all what Marriott may be offering in the near future, for one thing, so it's foolish to be all doom-and-gloom about it.  And I don't know where you're getting this, "Marriott can change anything on Ma and Pa MVCI Owners" because it isn't true at all.  Marriott can't unilaterally change Ma and Pa's basic deeded week ownership without Ma and Pa's permission.

And I still, will always, go back to the fact that it's the responsibility of buyers/owners to know what they're buying.  That means that in the absence of any blatant misrepresentations by the sales staff, it's up to Ma and Pa Owner to either flesh out the details before they're able to rescind, or accept after the rescission period that they're responsible for their own purchase.

For example - I love my Husqvarna sewing machine and the sales staff is formidable at the nearest dealership, but when the time comes to replace it I won't just go out and buy the latest model at their urging without giving it a test run and asking the right people - others like me who will actually use the product - how it will help me do exactly what I want it to do.  Because if I did just run out and buy the latest model without any research, it would be MY fault and not Husqvarna's if the particular stitch I need 23% of the time isn't included on the new model.



PerryM said:


> If you look at all the political polls right now the American public seems to be really riled up with just about everything - how will they look at Marriott's sea-change?  I don't know.



Oh for crap's sake.  Are you kidding me?!  The American public should get all riled up about whatever our politicians are doing or not doing that we think should be more or less important in the grand scheme of things.  But whatever Marriott might do isn't on anybody's radar but the 400,000 or however many MVCI owners exist. Come down off that ledge, Perry.


----------



## SueDonJ

timeos2 said:


> The flaw in this argument is that what Ma & Pa were sold DOESN'T (and can't) be changed.  The deeded rights paid for are protected by hundreds of pages of filings that absolutely limit what they bought, how it can be used and who administers it for them. The underlying product they paid for is untouchable by Marriott or anyone else.
> 
> You are mixing items that have no relationship to the rights purchased - things like trading, additional use periods or view assignments,  how the ownership was obtained - resale or retail - into the mix. Those things were NEVER guaranteed - always optional - and thus are subject to the whims of the controlling group.  You paid nothing for those and get what you pay for. They are optional, they are subject to change, they have no basis in any ownership so depending on them for the value you perceive from your ownership is the ultimate in miscalculation.
> 
> This whole thread has concentrated on those peripheral, non-guaranteed things that never should have been part of the purchase decision from the start. Yes people do that but they have to read the documents that make it clear what they bought & have a right to - those cannot change or be taken away - and what is being thrown in as "perks" or options that can go away at anytime and for any reason. Buy & own for the base items (own to use) and if you are happy with the value that offers you are a happy camper. Buy depending on the perks remaining to create that value and, as we see here, you eventually get burned and want to lash out that they are "robbing you". You robbed yourself by placing the value in the items you didn't buy, cannot control and are at the mercy of Marriott to supply as your value. It was optional, the new stuff is optional and no one has or will take away anything you paid your good money for.
> 
> Far too many have done the same thing but that doesn't change the fact that all you own is in the paperwork. Trading, resale value, views, etc not specifically listed are not part and never will be. They can ask money for any or all of it - or simply stop offering it - and you have zero recourse. Thats what you bought.



    Excellent post, John!


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> Sorry, Perry, I'm not buying it.  We don't have any idea at all what Marriott may be offering in the near future, for one thing, so it's foolish to be all doom-and-gloom about it.  And I don't know where you're getting this, "Marriott can change anything on Ma and Pa MVCI Owners" because it isn't true at all.  Marriott can't unilaterally change Ma and Pa's basic deeded week ownership without Ma and Pa's permission.
> 
> And I still, will always, go back to the fact that it's the responsibility of buyers/owners to know what they're buying.  That means that in the absence of any blatant misrepresentations by the sales staff, it's up to Ma and Pa Owner to either flesh out the details before they're able to rescind, or accept after the rescission period that they're responsible for their own purchase.
> 
> For example - I love my Husqvarna sewing machine and the sales staff is formidable at the nearest dealership, but when the time comes to replace it I won't just go out and buy the latest model at their urging without giving it a test run and asking the right people - others like me who will actually use the product - how it will help me do exactly what I want it to do.  Because if I did just run out and buy the latest model without any research, it would be MY fault and not Husqvarna's if the particular stitch I need 23% of the time isn't included on the new model.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for crap's sake.  Are you kidding me?!  The American public should get all riled up about whatever our politicians are doing or not doing that we think should be more or less important in the grand scheme of things.  But whatever Marriott might do isn't on anybody's radar but the 400,000 or however many MVCI owners exist. Come down off that ledge, Perry.



I keep seeing the "Marriott can't change the fundamental underlying ability to make a reservation and to then use it".

True, but right now folks find out that 5-seconds is about all the time they have to feel good about the above phrase.  If you are a little slow on the phone, or slow internet connection, and don't have an atomic clock you might not get that reservation you're supposed to be entitled to.

Throw in the developer clamoring for those same weeks and .01 seconds might not be enough.

So I agree with the lofty thought that the deed can't be changed but in reality Marriott can now represent hundreds of thousands of owners against your quest to enjoy what the deed says you are entitled to.

What all the paperwork is all about is the ability to get a reservation ahead of the number of owners in your resort in your season.

That definition will now be extended to ALL the folks who belong to the new system and want what you want, but with a Fortune 500 company behind them.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> I keep seeing the "Marriott can't change the fundamental underlying ability to make a reservation and to then use it".
> 
> True, but right now folks find out that 5-seconds is about all the time they have to feel good about the above phrase.
> 
> Throw in the developer clamoring for those same weeks and .01 seconds might not be enough.
> 
> So I agree with the lofty thought that the deed can't be changed but in reality Marriott can now represent hundreds of thousands of owners against your quest to enjoy what the deed says you are entitled to.



The deed says that I am entitled to use a week at my home resort in a specific unit configuration during a specific time season subject to availability if I follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures by reserving on/after/before a certain date relative to the date I want to reserve, and if my m/f are all paid up.  How exactly do you propose that Marriott will be able to negate that entitlement?


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> The deed says that I am entitled to use a week at my home resort in a specific unit configuration during a specific time season subject to availability if I follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures by reserving on/after/before a certain date relative to the date I want to reserve, and if my m/f are all paid up.  How exactly do you propose that Marriott will be able to negate that entitlement?



Marriott now has a vested interest in their ability to beat you to that reservation - that's what they are selling next week.

Marriott created the computer systems and Marriott controls the employees who now have a vested interest in seeing that you, the non member, get screwed.  I don't see a legal clause anywhere stating they have to play by the same rules you do.  They will become the agent for the owners and can use technology available to them.

Sure, if you want to ski Park City in August you will be able to get that week outside of their new system.

P.S.
I'm reminded of a funny story that is for real.  On a WM chat room some owner wrote a php (computer language that runs this chat room) program to check last second inventory on the WM site.  He was getting Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at local WM's all the time.

He foolishly told his story on that chat-room and everyone there wanted to become his best friend so they could do the same.  I warned him that what he did was just stupid and he would soon learn the lesson of jealous WM owners.

Well someone turned him in to WM and WM slapped a Captcha on the screen that the php program was interrogating every 30 seconds and the program died - he had to do the same things we did manually.

Developers don't like their customers out foxing them...


----------



## taffy19

SueDonJ said:


> The deed says that I am entitled to use a week at my home resort in a specific unit configuration during a specific time season subject to availability if I follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures by reserving on/after/before a certain date relative to the date I want to reserve, and if my m/f are all paid up. How exactly do you propose that Marriott will be able to negate that entitlement?


Is it not possible that you give this right up if you agree to convert to the point system? Isn't that what DRI owners do when they join the Trust? Nobody can make you join so it is up to each person. The more I think about it, the more I decide not to join but they may not even ask us as we are fixed. The sales person told us that we didn't need to worry about it so she may have meant that we will not be asked.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> Marriott now has a vested interest in their ability to beat you to that reservation - that's what they are selling next week.
> 
> Marriott created the computer systems and Marriott controls the employees who now have a vested interest in seeing that you, the non member, get screwed.  I don't see a legal clause anywhere stating they have to play by the same rules you do.  They will become the agent for the owners and can use technology available to them.
> 
> Sure, if you want to ski Park City in August you will be able to get that week outside of their new system.
> 
> P.S.
> I'm reminded of a funny story that is for real.  On a WM chat room some owner wrote a php (computer language that runs this chat room) program to check last second inventory on the WM site.  He was getting Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at local WM's all the time.
> 
> He foolishly told his story on that chat-room and everyone there wanted to become his best friend so they could do the same.  I warned him that what he did was just stupid and he would soon learn the lesson of jealous WM owners.
> 
> Well someone turned him in to WM and WM slapped a Captcha on the screen that the php program was interrogating every 30 seconds and the program died - he had to do the same things we did manually.
> 
> Developers don't like their customers out foxing them...



I'm not sure why exactly you're thinking Marriott will do this - do you mean that they'll want to get ahold of high-demand weeks for exchangers in the new system?  We don't know yet if this is an overlay system or a total points conversion system, nevermind whether or not individual owners will be booking exchanges through Marriott in a similar fashion to what's done now in II or if it will be as simple to do as home resort reservations are now.  So it's difficult for me to think through as far as you have to Marriott being nefarious for specific purposes.

But regardless, there is language in the contracts that says all owners have an equal chance at reservation availability, in addition to the language guaranteeing A week (not a SPECIFIC week remember) for owners who follow the reservation procedures.  If Marriott is able to jump in ahead of deeded week owners by using some souped-up computer program to bolster their new system, I would guess that would be in violation of the contract provisions and subject to challenge.


----------



## SueDonJ

iconnections said:


> Is it not possible that you give this right up if you agree to convert to the point system? Isn't that what DRI owners do when they join the Trust? Nobody can make you join so it is up to each person. The more I think about it, the more I decide not to join but they may not even ask us as we are fixed. The sales person told us that we didn't need to worry about it so she may have meant that we will not be asked.



Yes, anything's possible with respect to reservations if whatever new system Marriott may be rolling out turns out to be a total points conversion.  But anyone who chooses to convert would, or should!, presumably understand that they're giving up certain deeded rights that would still be attached to deeded weeks that are not converted.

I have no idea what we'll do if/when they roll whatever out ... it's impossible to say yes or no when you don't know any details.  I'm still thinking positive, though, and hoping and praying for a marriage of DVC's point system with Marriott's resort portfolio.  That's my timeshare nirvana.


----------



## dougp26364

iconnections said:


> Is it not possible that you give this right up if you agree to convert to the point system? Isn't that what DRI owners do when they join the Trust? Nobody can make you join so it is up to each person. The more I think about it, the more I decide not to join but they may not even ask us as we are fixed. The sales person told us that we didn't need to worry about it so she may have meant that we will not be asked.



If you join a trust based ownership then you give up your deeded week. You own an interest in a trust or grouping of resorts and are treated as an owner at any of those resorts you're allowed to book. However, you STILL have the RTU one week at any of those resorts.

On the other hand, you do not have the right to a specific unit style or a specific season. All you own is an interest in the trust. The amount of interest is in the number of points you own. You can save/borrow points to book what/when you want if you don't own enough points. For instance, there is a presidental suite at Kaanapali Beach Club that runs somewhere around 40,000 points. I have no interest in ever owning that many points nor would I want to pay the price to own that particular unit. I wouldn't use it every year and it would be a waste of money. In a points or trust based owners, based on availabilty, I could save/borrow enough points to stay there on rare occasion. So, I don't own a deed to that unit and have no right to use it every year but, if it's available, I own in that trust and I have access to enough points, I can book that unit as if I'm an owner. 

Then there are those in DRI like me who did not give up their deeds but joined their points progarm. I can book the presidential suite at KBC but, I have to wait until the 10 month mark. All owners in the Hawaiian trust can book that unit at 13 months. So, no real home resort advantage if you're a trust owner in that trust but, there sort of a home resort advantage for owners in a particular trust vs owners not in that particuar trust.


----------



## PerryM

*For instance...*



SueDonJ said:


> I'm not sure why exactly you're thinking Marriott will do this - do you mean that they'll want to get ahold of high-demand weeks for exchangers in the new system?  We don't know yet if this is an overlay system or a total points conversion system, nevermind whether or not individual owners will be booking exchanges through Marriott in a similar fashion to what's done now in II or if it will be as simple to do as home resort reservations are now.  So it's difficult for me to think through as far as you have to Marriott being nefarious for specific purposes.
> 
> But regardless, there is language in the contracts that says all owners have an equal chance at reservation availability, in addition to the language guaranteeing A week (not a SPECIFIC week remember) for owners who follow the reservation procedures.  If Marriott is able to jump in ahead of deeded week owners by using some souped-up computer program to bolster their new system, I would guess that would be in violation of the contract provisions and subject to challenge.



Marriott is well aware that the #1 complaint is NOT II but reserving hot holiday weeks - just read this chat room for all the broken dream vacations.

Marriott knows what those units are and will snag them in order to serve their customers - the folks who join.  They know that if they don't the howls will be deafening.

On the flip side, those that pull out their deed and convince themselves that they have nothing to worry about will find out what the computer term "Instance" means.

It's 7:59:59 AM CST the morning MOC owners want to reserve Christmas week 12 months out.  They are at their PC and know they have a 1 in 200 (or whatever) chance of getting a 2BR over Christmas.  8:00 AM and they click the button for the reservation.

Seconds go by, then 30 seconds, and finally 1 minute 45 seconds later the screen comes back and says "No inventory left".  What happened?

Well the Marriott reservation system, the same one you are showing on your PC, simply started an automated version and activated 200 Instances of it in .01 second.

You don't stand a chance.

Isn't this what some of you are saying "Buyer beware - the developer will follow the contract both parties signed".

Now this probably will be challenged in court and if Marriott has to hire 200 part time moms sitting at the kitchen table to be their agent they will.

Timeshares are like some of you say, it's about getting the reservation and that process can't be taken away but the developer doesn't have to work at human speed to get reservations...

P.S.
If you don't think Marriott would ever do such a thing - fine.  Just have 10,000 members who now want Christmas at MOC watch their atomic clocks at 8:00 AM CST and click their mouse...

Just pull out your deed and keep telling yourself Marriott can't harm you...


----------



## dougp26364

Perry, can you name ONE points based reservations system with the abuses you think Marriott will pull if/when they announce their new system? I belong to HGVC and DRI and don't see any of the abuses you're so worried about. Does Worldmark screw their owners over the way you seem to think Marriott is going to do?


----------



## elaine

*supply/demand--a similar issue in many points systems*

If you have a high demand place/season that you regularly use, and if there is not going to be a home resort/owned season preference, then it is most likely not in your interest to change to points (assuming there will be points), b/c you are then competing with the other Marriott masses-ones who don't mind paying 2 maintenance fees to combine 2 mud weeks to get a summer beach week, etc.---this is the way RCI points works--points are points.   And, if it is like other resorts that tried to convert to points, after the fact, I think we will find that many prime week owners who bought to use their week are unlikley to shift to points----just go a Marriott HHI or MB resort in July and ask how many traded in vs. use their week every year--and ask those owner how many times they have even even traded--I bet it is low.  Thus, I wonder how many prime weeks will actually be available in the new point system?


----------



## dougp26364

The people I spoke with at Waiohai stated they didn't trade their weeks because they felt that they were always trading down. Some didn't really want to go there every year but refused to exchange and lose value. If those resorts are given enough points that those owners see value in it and, so long as they have access to their home resort when they want it, then they'll join. Instead of trading that 2 bedroom Waiohai for Orlando straight up, now maybe they'll have enough points to get an Orlando unit PLUS something else. IOW, Hawaiian owners might find a fairness to this system that has been lacking for a long time. It's the same fairness that Perry worries will make his Gold Summit Watch week less valuable to him. 

I really think we're all over thinking this thing. Like I said, I own in two points programs and I'm aware of several others. I know of know points program run by a hotel chain where the owners are complaining about the phantom issues we post about on this thread. Sure Starwood owners are unhappy about their MF's but, I don't see them complaining about their points based exchange system.


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## DanCali

elaine said:


> If you have a high demand place/season that you regularly use, and if there is not going to be a home resort/owned season preference, then it is most likely not in your interest to change to points ....Thus, I wonder how many prime weeks will actually be available in the new point system?



This is something that sounds obvious after you think it over for a while or read 1800 posts on TUG...

But, the average owner will be faced with a smiling salesperson and charts showing how their platinum week can get 4 weeks in Orlando or book several short weekend stays at any resort they want. Not to mention the arrays of options, packages, discounts, arrows pointing everywhere, bonus points, and huge incentives that come along with surrendering your week into the trust "today". We already know where that leads to...


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Perry, can you name ONE points based reservations system with the abuses you think Marriott will pull if/when they announce their new system? I belong to HGVC and DRI and don't see any of the abuses you're so worried about. Does Worldmark screw their owners over the way you seem to think Marriott is going to do?



I don't think there is one - doesn't mean Marriott can't be the first.

We will have to read about reservations next week and how Marriott intends to handle them.

Marriott can simply let all the members, with enough Points, make the reservations themselves or offer a concierge service where they do it for you if you're a Platinum member for instance.

Can't guess how Marriott intends to set up their caste system and reward folks who pay to become part of a higher membership level.

But just because no other developer hasn't offered the service doesn't mean Marriott might not.

P.S.
WM is a Point system where everyone is treated the same.  (Well not really but the difference is so small as to be the same)  Marriott already has a 2 tier caste system of Member and Non-Member and might have a third one for resale Member too.

You know for 4 years Marriott has been telling us "Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry" - I believe them.

I just see no reason to put on my rosy glasses and assume Marriott will play nice...


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening...

Elaine:

I am going to respectfully disagree. The proportion of exchangers (even with high demand weeks) is greater than you believe.  I have exchanged into ski weeks at Park City and tahoe (2 every season)' HHI in summer, Hawaii and Myrtle Beach summer using 3 bedroom Orlando (GV)  I traded into a 3 bedroom plat plus in Aruba this past year.  I asked on the check in line "Who is a trader?"  The 8 customers in front of me all waved their II certificates.  The point is these weeks need to come from somewhere!!!  They come from exchangers!!!

The myth of 99% owner occupancy comes from the sales force as they quote,  "You can only get in here if you buy here!!!"

Trading and exchanging are definitely a major part of the equation...


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> This is something that sounds obvious after you think it over for a while or read 1800 posts on TUG...
> 
> But, the average owner will be faced with a smiling salesperson and charts showing how their platinum week can get 4 weeks in Orlando or book several short weekend stays at any resort they want. Not to mention the arrays of options, packages, discounts, arrows pointing everywhere, bonus points, and huge incentives that come along with surrendering your week into the trust "today". We already know where that leads to...



I don't think so. Hawaiian weeks with DRI have far more points than does Branson, Orlando or Williamsburg. A Hawaiin owner of a two bedroom unit can use points to make multiple exchanges rather than getting just the one exchange from their unit.

Another thing you haven't thought about is how difficult it is to trade into a 2 bedroom unit at a Hawaiian resort that offeres lock-off units. What do the owners at those resorts do now to maximize their trade value? They lock-off that unit and deposit a one bedroom and a studio unit, making it all but impossible to trade into a 2 bedroom unit. With points they won't have to do that and everyone else can use points to get the two bedroom units that were impossible to get before the change.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I don't think there is one - doesn't mean Marriott can't be the first.
> 
> We will have to read about reservations next week and how Marriott intends to handle them.
> 
> Marriott can simply let all the members, with enough Points, make the reservations themselves or offer a concierge service where they do it for you if you're a Platinum member for instance.
> 
> Can't guess how Marriott intends to set up their caste system and reward folks who pay to become part of a higher membership level.
> 
> But just because no other developer hasn't offered the service doesn't mean Marriott might not.



So if what you're worried about doesn't exist with any other points based system, why do you believe that Marriott, a very well respected name in the timeshare business, will be the first one to screw their owners over? After nearly 10 years as a Marriott owner, I've come to the conclusion that Marriott treats me as well, if not better, than any other timeshare developer or manager of resorts. I see NOTHING in their history as far as timeshare developement to make me believe that Marriott will be the first one to insitute such a poor internal system and abuse their owners in the manner you have suggested throughout this thread. 

When it comes down to it, you're interest's are self serving. You bought a cheap week to manipulate the present exchange system. When the system changes, so does your ability to manipulate the system. I'm in the same boat with my studio lock-off and one bedroom lock-off units that I've used all these years to trade up within the Marriott system. The difference is, I can accept that change is a part of the equation. You seem to think that there's a huge sign up at Marriott's corporate office encouraging Marriott employee's to screw Perry and his resale purchased Gold week at Summit Watch. Marriott is NOT out to get you. They will, however, need to keep up with the changing times in order to stay competitive. IMHO, this change has been a long time coming and is long overdue.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> So if what you're worried about doesn't exist with any other points based system, why do you believe that Marriott, a very well respected name in the timeshare business, will be the first one to screw their owners over? After nearly 10 years as a Marriott owner, I've come to the conclusion that Marriott treats me as well, if not better, than any other timeshare developer or manager of resorts. I see NOTHING in their history as far as timeshare developement to make me believe that Marriott will be the first one to insitute such a poor internal system and abuse their owners in the manner you have suggested throughout this thread.
> 
> *When it comes down to it, you're interest's are self serving. You bought a cheap week to manipulate the present exchange system. When the system changes, so does your ability to manipulate the system.* I'm in the same boat with my studio lock-off and one bedroom lock-off units that I've used all these years to trade up within the Marriott system. The difference is, I can accept that change is a part of the equation. You seem to think that there's a huge sign up at Marriott's corporate office encouraging Marriott employee's to screw Perry and his resale purchased Gold week at Summit Watch. Marriott is NOT out to get you. They will, however, need to keep up with the changing times in order to stay competitive. IMHO, this change has been a long time coming and is long overdue.



I know, I'm a bad person....


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## indyhorizons

Dean said:


> We could use tax examples but that might get political so lets talk timeshare maint and fees.  A resort must decide what and how much to pay for each and every item and in many cases, whether to pay for something at all.  These may include pools, workout rooms, beach access, play areas, security, midweek cleanings, etc, etc.  Not every person will use every item and many will end up paying for things they don't use.  Is this fair? Depends on the specifics for that item.  Will some be upset even if it's fair?  The answer a resounding yes for those that can't see the big picture.  I try to see the big picture in such matters.  Will we disagree on certain items? absolutely.



Here's where we differ, yet again. I try not to worry needlessly about the minutae (sp) of whether I am utilizing all of the things that my money goes for (taxes or timeshare maitnenance fees, either of these examples will suffice). I'm sure alot of both go to many things I don't agree with either. But in the end,  I do use some things, (in the tax example: roads/infrastructure, i have access to emergency response-though I haven't had to use it, but its there,etc. the same goes for timeshare maintenance fees, we use the pools, and participate in resort activities, etc.). the difference between these two things is with taxes, I don't have much choice,other than if I can choose to elect different officials who make the decisions, but the ts is something i have chosen to do, right? If it gets to be where I no longer enjoy the same conveniences due to changes that I don't agree with (in this case, less usage because of a new system (merely an  example, this obviously hasn't be proven to be the case yet)), then I have a choice to make here. I can choose to a) continue to stay with II and take my chances b) go to the new system (whatever that consists of) or 3)and here is the big one- sell my timeshares all together and move on. It' all about choice isn't it?


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I know, I'm a bad person....



On the other hand you've given everyone something to obsesively converse about. Something no one knows actually has any facts that would give real substance to the conversation. Basically, you've shown a talent for getting people worked up over something that can't be proven. Do you by chance hold a political office? 

As far as manipulating the system.......me to. I fear that I won't get as much milage out of a new points system as I'm getting right now. The good news is, they can't force me to change.


----------



## DanCali

indyhorizons said:


> 3)and here is the big one- sell my timeshares all together and move on. It' all about choice isn't it?



Sure - but if the new systems devalues your equity by 20%-40% then you still have a good reason to gripe. It's clear to me that not all people here feel the same way. I on the other hand do monitor and care about the resale value of what I own since I view the depreciation as one of the costs of ownership, along with maintenance and opportunity costs (not unlike a car)

As I said before - any "enhancement" CAN be done without an adverse impact on resale prices. We'll see what in fact will be done...


----------



## puckmanfl

Hi..

Why do we continue to disparage poor Perry for getting great usage out of his Gold Summitt watch week.  He is just doing what the sales force said he could.  While at Summitt Watch on a ski trip, I went to a sales tour where the rep tried to sell me a (you guessed it) a Gold Summitt Watch week.  I asked Why? I was told about how you can lock it off, deposit both halves and just get great trades.  Perry is just doing what the product was intended for as per the sales rep!!!

The reason that there is just so much passion on this thread is that Perry is not the only one using the system as it was "sold" to us!! Exchanging is a big part of the equation.  Hopefully the new system will keep it this way!!!


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Sure - but if the new systems devalues your equity by 20%-40% then you still have a good reason to gripe. It's clear to me that not all people here feel the same way. I on the other hand do monitor and care about the resale value of what I *won* since I view the depreciation as one of the costs of ownership, along with maintenance and opportunity costs (not unlike a car)
> 
> As I said before - any "enhancement" CAN be done without an adverse impact on resale prices. We'll see what in fact will be done...



Ha.  I know it should be "own" but it's still a good mindtrick.  Like you won't consider yourself a winner in whatever new thing comes out?


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> Hi..
> 
> Why do we continue to disparage poor Perry for getting great usage out of his Gold Summitt watch week.  He is just doing what the sales force said he could.  While at Summitt Watch on a ski trip, I went to a sales tour where the rep tried to sell me a (you guessed it) a Gold Summitt Watch week.  I asked Why? I was told about how you can lock it off, deposit both halves and just get great trades.  Perry is just doing what the product was intended for as per the sales rep!!!
> 
> The reason that there is just so much passion on this thread is that Perry is not the only one using the system as it was "sold" to us!! Exchanging is a big part of the equation.  Hopefully the new system will keep it this way!!!



I'm not. I've been doing the same thing with my Silver season studio lock-off at Ocean Pointe. I will, however, stand on the ground that just because my little deal might be coming to an end doesn't mean that change is bad for everyone. In fact, I believe that this change will benefit the majority of Marriott owners in the long run. Change does not make Marriott evil or bad and it does not indicate that Marriott is out to screw their owners or abuse the system. It just means that the exchange landscape for timeshare has changed. The majority of major hotel brands the manage timeshare now have some sort of internal points based exchange system. Marriott has been very late to this party IMHO.

You must always understand that what was "sold" to us was the right to use one week in a specified type of timeshare during a specified season. Everything else, like Marriott Rewards points, is all fluff. What is not in writing can/will be changed. Exchanging is fluff and the manner in which exchanges are made or the exchange power of your owned week is always subject to change. Owners have a tough time distinguishing what they purchased from what was sold. You purchased the RTU a timeshare week but you were sold a dream.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> Sure - but if the new systems devalues your equity by 20%-40% then you still have a good reason to gripe. It's clear to me that not all people here feel the same way. I on the other hand do monitor and care about the resale value of what I won since I view the depreciation as one of the costs of ownership, along with maintenance and opportunity costs (not unlike a car)
> 
> As I said before - any "enhancement" CAN be done without an adverse impact on resale prices. We'll see what in fact will be done...



Are you depreciating your timeshare on your taxes? I didn't know that timeshares had a depreciable value. In fact, I was of the understanding the developers were forbidden to sell timeshare as any sort of investment. 

The preceived deperciation of a timeshare is just that, preceived. These changes may or may not affect the resale value of your timeshare. Of more importance is that fact that Marriott is no longer exercising ROFR. That alone has caused the resale value of Marriott timeshares to plumet. Should Marriott ever consider using ROFR again, I suspect you'll see values rise. ROFR will have a greater affect on your timeshares "cash" value more than any internal points exchange program.

One other thought, who really knows how Marriott will treat resale weeks? It's been speculated upon but there is nothing in writing. You're making assumptions based on speculation. Never a wise thing to do.


----------



## indyhorizons

grgs said:


> I'm glad to hear you're not having an issue booking your weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand about the 50% inventory restriction at 13 mos.  In my prior post, I said:
> 
> _"a good chunk of weeks has already been booked by owners with the 13 mo. advantage"_
> *
> I would define 50% of the inventory as "a good chunk." *
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't mean to imply that all Marriott owners have problems reserving at their home resorts.  I said in my earlier post:
> 
> _"The one consistent complaint I have read about from Marriott owners is not being able to reserve their home resort at 12 mos. out *when trying for a peak week*."_
> 
> Again, that is something that I've never heard a Starwood owner complain about.  When trying to figure out why this would be an issue specifically with Marriott, I think it likely has to do with the desire to reserve peak weeks not just for personal use, but because of a wish to maximize trade power in II by depositing peak weeks in II, and secondarily, because "a good chunk" of the inventory is not available to single week owners when they get their first crack at making a reservation.  If I owned at Canyon Villas and was unable to make a March spring training reservation at 12 mos., I would be extremely disappointed.  This has never happened to me in all the years I have owned at Westin Kierland or Sheraton Desert Oasis.  In fact, several times I've forgotten to call first thing and still was able to get my reservations made.  I find it unlikely that Starwood owners have significantly less interest in _using _peak weeks than their Marriott counterparts.
> 
> I am happy that you're able to make the reservations you want, and of course, it's good to hear that side as well.
> 
> Glorian



In my opinion, and its just that an opinion, a good chunk would be MORE THAN 50%. 50% is just that, or half. When someone uses the term good chunk, it usually signifies a larger portion that that which is given to the other portion. Just my two cents...


----------



## indyhorizons

DanCali said:


> Will we see these types of posts on the Marriott board 2-3 years from now?
> 
> Several thousand dollars down, and a few more gray hairs it'll be back to:
> 
> "All you can really count on is the continued ability to reserve your own unit at your own resort for your own week".
> 
> Oh wait - Marriott may take away home resort advantage too...



Great thread/example. Thanks Dan...


----------



## DanCali

dougp26364 said:


> Are you depreciating your timeshare on your taxes? I didn't know that timeshares had a depreciable value. In fact, I was of the understanding the developers were forbidden to sell timeshare as any sort of investment.



I'm not depreciating my car either nor can I take a capital loss on it. 

But when one buys a car isn't "resale value" (or "residual value" as you'd call it in case you lease) a consideration? And isn't the difference between the purchase price today and the future resale price the depreciation? The difference between what you buy something for and what you sell it for (or depreciation, as I called it) is a true cost. In fact, this cost is the main reason not to buy a retail timeshare...

And, by the way, the personal tax code differs from the corporate tax code. I'm not an accounting person but if a corporation was in the business of buying timeshares to rent for a profit (say "DanCali Rentals Inc.") - couldn't they actually depreciate the timeshares? IMO depreciation or "marking to market" would make sense. Just a hypothetical argument... I have no desire to be a vacation landlord 

But depreciating for tax purposes or not has nothing to do with it being an actual cost. It's just a matter of what the IRS lets you do...



dougp26364 said:


> One other thought, who really knows how Marriott will treat resale weeks? It's been speculated upon but there is nothing in writing. You're making assumptions based on speculation. Never a wise thing to do.



I thought the topic of the thread relates to the value of resale weeks... We've been speculating for months and over 1900 posts


----------



## indyhorizons

DanCali said:


> Sure - but if the new systems devalues your equity by 20%-40% then you still have a good reason to gripe. It's clear to me that not all people here feel the same way. I on the other hand do monitor and care about the resale value of what I won since I view the depreciation as one of the costs of ownership, along with maintenance and opportunity costs (not unlike a car)
> 
> As I said before - any "enhancement" CAN be done without an adverse impact on resale prices. We'll see what in fact will be done...



After joining TUG, and also after buying a resale unit myself, I've never thought that I would get what I paid. Unlike yourself, I bought in Orlando (where I know it is oversold). I have been very fortunate to get every exchange that I have ever wanted in 10 years, except 1, inlcuding a 2br unit at Ko Olina in July, so I've been fortunate. However, IF I decide to sell,I will take what I can get and move on.  End of story.


----------



## PerryM

*Burning bridges towards the future...*



puckmanfl said:


> Hi..
> 
> Why do we continue to disparage poor Perry for getting great usage out of his Gold Summitt watch week.  He is just doing what the sales force said he could.  While at Summitt Watch on a ski trip, I went to a sales tour where the rep tried to sell me a (you guessed it) a Gold Summitt Watch week.  I asked Why? I was told about how you can lock it off, deposit both halves and just get great trades.  Perry is just doing what the product was intended for as per the sales rep!!!
> 
> The reason that there is just so much passion on this thread is that Perry is not the only one using the system as it was "sold" to us!! Exchanging is a big part of the equation.  Hopefully the new system will keep it this way!!!



Sadly I don't have current ARDA stats for the past year or so but the last time I looked EXCHANGING was the #1 reason to buy a timeshare and not actual year-after-year occupation of the unit.

So where does that put all the folks who drag out the deed and point to the only thing that is guaranteed - the chance to make a reservation, and that's just a probability of getting what you are "entitled to".

Don't know how those stats apply to Marriott but since Marriott is dumping selling timeshares to get into the Points reservation club business I'm guessing its a big part of why Marriott want's to go down this path and burn the timeshare weeks bridge behind it.

P.S.
It's going to be fun to read what an owner "gets" when they turn over their deed to an exchange club trust.  Are they entitled to a certain number of Points per year, or a certain number of days per year, or is Marriott just going to say "Trust us you'll get what's coming to you".


----------



## indyhorizons

PerryM said:


> Sadly I don't have current ARDA stats for the past year or so but the last time I looked EXCHANGING was the #1 reason to buy a timeshare and not actual year-after-year occupation of the unit.
> 
> So where does that put all the folks who drag out the deed and point to the only thing that is guaranteed - the chance to make a reservation, and that's just a probability of getting what you are "entitled to".
> 
> Don't know how those stats apply to Marriott but since Marriott is dumping selling timeshares to get into the Points reservation club business I'm guessing its a big part of why Marriott want's to go down this path and burn the timeshare weeks bridge behind it.
> 
> P.S.
> It's going to be fun to read what an owner "gets" when they turn over their deed to an exchange club trust.  Are they entitled to a certain number of Points per year, or a certain number of days per year, or is Marriott just
> going to say *"Trust us you'll get what's coming to you".*



LOL! Perry.


----------



## Dean

DanCali said:


> Timeshares are not ipods or ipads. They do not sell themselves. Selling retail timeshares is an art form that requires extremely high sales and people skills.
> 
> Now take some of the best salespeople in the industry and pit them against the 90% least educated owners. Do you think they stand a chance? Will they understand or be told what they are giving up when they are presented with arrays of options, packages, seasons, fact and figures, prices, discounts, new prices, good for today prices, points, incentives, flex vacations, free vacations and arrows pointing in 25 different directions? Let alone the unsuspecting first time buyer...


But the same is true for cars, insurance, etc, etc.  Certainly a court will tend to side with the consumer when these issues are not clear cut assuming it gets to that point as it essentially never does.  Being unsophisticated is not a crime, nor is being better than your client at the interpersonal game.  



PerryM said:


> Let's get real here - 95% of the folks who bought from Marriott never took the paperwork to a lawyer to review.  I never did and in Park City the right to rescind is 5 days so by the time I got home it was too late.
> 
> Folks bought from Marriott because they knew the name and trusted the company - they don't have a lawyer on speed dial as a general rule.
> 
> They were sold a timeshare and hours were spent explaining how it all worked BEFORE they bought.  Nowhere in that briefing did a Marriott representative declare "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" - nobody gave that speech.
> 
> So Ma and Pa bought what was taught to them - a week based Marriott timeshare.
> 
> Now Marriott is going to exercise that little clause "Marriott has the right to change anything we want for as long as we want" and completely change Ma and Pa's definition of a timeshare as Marriott taught them.
> 
> Of course Marriott can do this to us, and of course Ma and Pa should have stopped their vacation and sought out a lawyer to review their documents before the right to rescind expired but none of them did.
> 
> Marriott will find out next week what Ma and Pa think of the Gotcha Marriott is about to pull.  Will they understand Marriott's legal team or will the feel snookered?  Let's find out.
> 
> If you look at all the political polls right now the American public seems to be really riled up with just about everything - how will they look at Marriott's sea-change?  I don't know.


They all had the option and opportunity to seek out a lawyer if they chose, not doing so, they would assume the inherent risks involved.  I'm guessing that a large segment of the Marriott membership will be all for a good points system, the question is going to be how to be included (costs, etc).



iconnections said:


> Is it not possible that you give this right up if you agree to convert to the point system? Isn't that what DRI owners do when they join the Trust? Nobody can make you join so it is up to each person. The more I think about it, the more I decide not to join but they may not even ask us as we are fixed. The sales person told us that we didn't need to worry about it so she may have meant that we will not be asked.


Sure, but the choice is yours.  That's not to say they won't put pressure on you and take away many of the current benefits and options as part of that pressure.

As I've said before on this thread, if I was that suspicious of a company, I wouldn't own with them, PERIOD, not matter how good the deal.  We can't make any specific decisions or judgements based on a possible plan until we see what it is, we can talk about it a lot though.  Marriott has the right to run their company, and to make changes in their company model.  They do have certain obligations currently due to contractual issues mostly on management contracts.  They can walk away from any resort they want going forward (and likely will 2 or 3).



indyhorizons said:


> Here's where we differ, yet again. I try not to worry needlessly about the minutae (sp) of whether I am utilizing all of the things that my money goes for (taxes or timeshare maitnenance fees, either of these examples will suffice). I'm sure alot of both go to many things I don't agree with either. But in the end,  I do use some things, (in the tax example: roads/infrastructure, i have access to emergency response-though I haven't had to use it, but its there,etc. the same goes for timeshare maintenance fees, we use the pools, and participate in resort activities, etc.). the difference between these two things is with taxes, I don't have much choice,other than if I can choose to elect different officials who make the decisions, but the ts is something i have chosen to do, right? If it gets to be where I no longer enjoy the same conveniences due to changes that I don't agree with (in this case, less usage because of a new system (merely an  example, this obviously hasn't be proven to be the case yet)), then I have a choice to make here. I can choose to a) continue to stay with II and take my chances b) go to the new system (whatever that consists of) or 3)and here is the big one- sell my timeshares all together and move on. It' all about choice isn't it?


There will be lots of choices but you or I may not like the choices or costs associated and we may not have the choices we want.  Seems interesting not to worry about maint fees but to worry excessively about possible changes that haven't happened yet and all we have is enough info to speculate.  I'll chose to put some faith in Marriott but not blindly.  Actually I suspect selling altogether will be the best choice for a subset of the membership.  



puckmanfl said:


> Hi..
> 
> Why do we continue to disparage poor Perry for getting great usage out of his Gold Summitt watch week.  He is just doing what the sales force said he could.  While at Summitt Watch on a ski trip, I went to a sales tour where the rep tried to sell me a (you guessed it) a Gold Summitt Watch week.  I asked Why? I was told about how you can lock it off, deposit both halves and just get great trades.  Perry is just doing what the product was intended for as per the sales rep!!!
> 
> The reason that there is just so much passion on this thread is that Perry is not the only one using the system as it was "sold" to us!! Exchanging is a big part of the equation.  Hopefully the new system will keep it this way!!!


Actually I don't believe that's quite true.  I don't believe anyone has posted that it's a problem that Perry has done well learning and using the system, I've likely done better than he has to be honest.  I think the issue is that his intentions come into question.  Is he talking down the system because he really believes what he says on principle or is he just trying to keep status quo for preservation of his ability to beat out the other members to get what he wants, my interpretation is a little of both.  I'll say again that I don't recall any contractual language on exchanges that would protect me in these matters.  I put no credibility on what the system was at the time or what the salesperson said.



dougp26364 said:


> Are you depreciating your timeshare on your taxes? I didn't know that timeshares had a depreciable value. In fact, I was of the understanding the developers were forbidden to sell timeshare as any sort of investment.
> 
> The preceived deperciation of a timeshare is just that, preceived. These changes may or may not affect the resale value of your timeshare. Of more importance is that fact that Marriott is no longer exercising ROFR. That alone has caused the resale value of Marriott timeshares to plumet. Should Marriott ever consider using ROFR again, I suspect you'll see values rise. ROFR will have a greater affect on your timeshares "cash" value more than any internal points exchange program.
> 
> One other thought, who really knows how Marriott will treat resale weeks? It's been speculated upon but there is nothing in writing. You're making assumptions based on speculation. Never a wise thing to do.


In many states they're not allowed to sell it as an investment of rental or resale and are required to specifically include language in the POS to that effect.  Even for stocks many financial experts make the point that it isn't really a loss until you sell.  I get that one might have bought something for $20K that you know is now worth $2K and that bothers some but it has no real meaning if you don't intend to sell.  While I have gone against my own advice a a couple of times times of not buying timeshares as an investment, in general it is a fool game to do so other than an investment in future vacations.


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> I know of know points program run by a hotel chain where the owners are complaining about the phantom issues we post about on this thread. Sure Starwood owners are unhappy about their MF's but, I don't see them complaining about their points based exchange system.



I agree with most of your post- but we should keep in mind that Starwood has, in fact, played fast and loose with their point allotment in order to promote sales. I understand that it was such an issue that they later had to up the point value for WSJ and/or Harborside (I don't remember exactly). The bottom line is, though, that there was future point devaluation (by virtue of the fact that newer resorts were assigned an inordinate amount of points, inconsistent with realistic market value). So at least some of the owners did complain about Starwood's point based exchanges. The eventual outcome of these complaints- Starwood owners at other resorts virtually never can reserve prime weeks at these resorts, because the owners either use them, rent them, or arrange private trades. It just is not cost effective for them to do otherwise, because they feel the points assigned are insufficient. 

I am not saying Marriott will do this, but just as many Hawaii owners today feel like they are trading down and are reticent to deposit their full 2BR unit, in a point system they may feel that way in the future, esp. as new resorts are introduced. 

Starwood does have home resort priority and, from the posts I've read on the other forum, there are many instances where prime weeks are not available to others owning elsewhere.

IF there is no home resort priority, then it is a free for all competition. I am sure I will be proved wrong, but I can't see why any owner of a premium week would want to convert to points and give up home resort priority. Personally, I don't want to compete with owners at other resorts to book a Feb. Aruba week. Right now I have no trouble booking week 5- one of the highest demand weeks- and I want to keep it that way.


----------



## DanCali

Dean said:


> But the same is true for cars, insurance, etc, etc.  Certainly a court will tend to side with the consumer when these issues are not clear cut assuming it gets to that point as it essentially never does.  Being unsophisticated is not a crime, nor is being better than your client at the interpersonal game.



A car salesperson is a saint compared to the blatant lies some timeshare salespeople spew. How many times in the last few months have we heard here on TUG about  (mostly the Ko'Olina) salespeople telling prospective buyers that resale units have a disadvantage booking home resort? How many people who didn't find TUG or were bold enough to ask heard that nonesense and fell for it? 

I also don't recall a car salesperson making me sign that everything I heard orally doesn't count or that if I sell the car the A/C will not function (analogy to no hotel points when you sell it - and implying indirectly it's worth much less on the resale market). Heck, I even bought a new car once, drove it for 400 miles and sold it on the resale market for a profit over the dealer MSRP... good luck pulling that one off with a retail timeshare.

If all timeshare presentations were recorded and could be entered as evidence in a dispute - I'd be on your side on this one. Unfortunately, developer timeshares sales are still often based on deceipt of the buyers...


----------



## sandytoes

*What's changing in June????*

OK . . . this is a very long thread . . . I've been trying to catch up but can not figure out what's going to change in June. Can anyone in a nut shell give me a summary or point me to the location in this tread that indicated what everyone is so excited about. I love my "bought from Marriott" time share and have never had a problem with any exchange I tried to get. I have also loved using my points. Whatever is happening . . . I don't think Marriott is going to delibertly make a good product bad or intentionally tick off owners . . . I may be wrong but since I am not sure what is happening but I will wait to see.


----------



## brigechols

sandytoes said:


> OK . . . this is a very long thread . . . I've been trying to catch up but can not figure out what's going to change in June. Can anyone in a nut shell give me a summary or point me to the location in this tread that indicated what everyone is so excited about. I love my "bought from Marriott" time share and have never had a problem with any exchange I tried to get. I have also loved using my points. Whatever is happening . . . I don't think Marriott is going to delibertly make a good product bad or intentionally tick off owners . . . I may be wrong but since I am not sure what is happening but I will wait to see.



here is the best summary yet



PerryM said:


> As a public service gesture here is a recap of this thread to date:
> 
> [...................]
> 
> I hope you got that.
> 
> Marriott is going to make some kind of announcement "soon" and it probably has something to do with an Internal Points Exchange System and perhaps a total upheaval of how they sell timeshares.
> 
> Oh, and the Marriott salesreps say "we will like it".
> 
> That just about sums it up - and a lot of guessing on just about everyone's part.
> 
> So here it is again:
> 
> [...................]


----------



## PerryM

*Too true...*



Dean said:


> ...
> Actually I don't believe that's quite true.  I don't believe anyone has posted that it's a problem that Perry has done well learning and using the system, I've likely done better than he has to be honest.  I think the issue is that his intentions come into question.  *Is he talking down the system because he really believes what he says on principle or is he just trying to keep status quo for preservation of his ability to beat out the other members to get what he wants, my interpretation is a little of both. * I'll say again that I don't recall any contractual language on exchanges that would protect me in these matters.  I put no credibility on what the system was at the time or what the salesperson said.
> ...



Absolutely correct!

You know what's going to be a kick in the head- all those Marriott owners too stupid to get a lawyer to review their original sales documents are going to do the same damn thing all over again as they sign away their weeks into the new system.

So how do you feel sorry for 95% of the folks being that stupid?

I'm not trying to be holier than thou since I'm in that 95% camp but honestly folks what's wrong with us?


----------



## puckmanfl

Hi

Here I go again...

Not to be a Perry apologist, but he is not "cutting in front of the line" for what he wants.  Perry deposits his beloved Gold Summitt Watch week either in its entirety or in its lock off halves.  He makes his requests via II.  He then waits for owners of his desired weeks to deposit.  Then, higher ranked MVCI weeks get first dibs.  Within the 24 day Internal priority the weaker MVCI weeks pick up the scraps.  Any weeks that "up traders" get are "passed" on by other MVCI customers.  Within the Flexchange window Perry and others that are flexible can "snag" a bit of "homefield" advantage by scouring the "waiver wire" at 4 am (especially on Saturday mornings) when lots o' primo inventory become available.

I am hopeful the new system will have many benefits and I am sure we will all play by the new rules and do just fine!!!


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Sadly I don't have current ARDA stats for the past year or so but the last time I looked EXCHANGING was the #1 reason to buy a timeshare and not actual year-after-year occupation of the unit.
> 
> So where does that put all the folks who drag out the deed and point to the only thing that is guaranteed - the chance to make a reservation, and that's just a probability of getting what you are "entitled to".
> 
> Don't know how those stats apply to Marriott but since Marriott is dumping selling timeshares to get into the Points reservation club business I'm guessing its a big part of why Marriott want's to go down this path and burn the timeshare weeks bridge behind it.
> 
> P.S.
> It's going to be fun to read what an owner "gets" when they turn over their deed to an exchange club trust.  Are they entitled to a certain number of Points per year, or a certain number of days per year, or is Marriott just going to say "Trust us you'll get what's coming to you".



We'll be at Mountain Valley Lodge in a couple of weeks. While I don't plan on doing an owners update, I do plan on going to the owners usage meeting to see what they have to say. Hopefully Marriott will have let the cat out of the bag by then and maybe I can get some decent surface information. 

I'd love to believe they'll go with a deeded weeks converted to points value for internal exchanges but, I fear it will be the "trust us" version instead.


----------



## dougp26364

sandytoes said:


> OK . . . this is a very long thread . . . I've been trying to catch up but can not figure out what's going to change in June. Can anyone in a nut shell give me a summary or point me to the location in this tread that indicated what everyone is so excited about. I love my "bought from Marriott" time share and have never had a problem with any exchange I tried to get. I have also loved using my points. Whatever is happening . . . I don't think Marriott is going to delibertly make a good product bad or intentionally tick off owners . . . I may be wrong but since I am not sure what is happening but I will wait to see.



That's what I keep trying to get at. There is NOTHING to get excited about.....yet. It's to early to cry the sky is falling and the world as we know it is ending. It's to early to say that Marriott is going to screw ever existing owner over with any new internal points system that has yet to be announce. This entire thread is a nearly perfect example of an exercise in futility. What could be productive conversation of what might or might not happen and what to look for is over shadowed by those who think the end is near. 

The playing field may be changing for internal Marriott to Marriott exchanges. THAT'S ALL. Nothing more, nothing less. Until we actually SEE the new program none of us has a clue how it will or won't affect us. We can only look at other points based systems to get an idea of what Marriott might be planning. To be honest, Marriott owners have coveted points based internal systems where they aren't competing with outsiders to get Marriott units. Now that it might happen, along comes this thread promoting any change as bad for Marriott owners and Marriott is going to stick it to all of us stupid people.


----------



## davidvel

PerryM said:


> It's 7:59:59 AM CST the morning MOC owners want to reserve Christmas week 12 months out.  They are at their PC and know they have a 1 in 200 (or whatever) chance of getting a 2BR over Christmas.  8:00 AM and they click the button for the reservation.
> 
> Seconds go by, then 30 seconds, and finally 1 minute 45 seconds later the screen comes back and says "No inventory left".  What happened?
> 
> Well the Marriott reservation system, the same one you are showing on your PC, simply started an automated version and activated 200 Instances of it in .01 second.
> 
> You don't stand a chance.


Perry, Sue is correct and you are incorrect (and I know you know it). You simply misstate the law applicable to the Marriott timeshare system to further the hysteria. Marriott cannot implement any preferential reservation system, computer, etc. that gives particular owners an advantage over others. In fact, as I have stated before, I will be lead counsel (with no upfront fee) if they do. The HOA has an obligation to treat each owner equally with equal ability to enjoy the benefits of the timeshare declaration. Period, end of story.   


> Now this probably will be challenged in court and if Marriott has to hire 200 part time moms sitting at the kitchen table to be their agent they will.


Oh, now you acknowledge that they can't legally rig the system and they'll get 200 people to call in for the 200 units in their "trust." Well that is no different than the same 200 owners calling in today...although I still see no basis to rationally believe they would. 

- - -

My guess (worth as much as the last thousand something posts) is that this won't be any new internal trading system at all. Just a change to a points system of some sort for new sales of timeshare intervals going forward. We'll still all be using II for trades.


----------



## DanCali

davidvel said:


> Marriott cannot implement any preferential reservation system, computer, etc. that gives particular owners an advantage over others. In fact, as I have stated before, I will be lead counsel (with no upfront fee) if they do.



Not to take Marriott's side on this but if Marriott does book at 9am before everyone else why is that an unfair advantage? Anyone can write a Java application that logs into the website at 9am EST at 12 months out and makes a reservation on their behalf... I haven't seen a rule against it. It'd be quite useful for those on the West coast!


----------



## davidvel

DanCali said:


> Not to take Marriott's side on this but if Marriott does book at 9am before everyone else why is that an unfair advantage? Anyone can write a Java application that logs into the website at 9am EST at 12 months out and makes a reservation on their behalf... I haven't seen a rule against it. It'd be quite useful for those on the West coast!



If "anyone" could write a java app (or the app was provided to every owner) I'd agree with you.


----------



## rsackett

This has been a very entertaining thread!  

I am not upset or worried about the "BIG" change coming.  I will continue to keep my two weeks and I will not turn them over to anybody else.  I will use my weeks when I want to.  I will rent my weeks out if I ever want to.  If Marriott decided to stop the Marriott only preference period in II, I will continue to trade, most likely in II but if they do not get the job done I will try one of the other trading companies, or work out direct trades.  If resale value drops I will not like it, heck my Manor Club has already dropped a bunch since I bought, I don’t like that either, I can still feed my kids and pay my mortgage.

My life will not be turned up-side-down my any announcement.  Who knows, maybe it will be something I like; I know it will not be anything that I can’t deal with.  I have enough stress in my life without getting stressed out about my vacation time!

Ray


----------



## davidvel

rsackett said:


> This has been a very entertaining thread!
> 
> I am not upset or worried about the "BIG" change coming.  I will continue to keep my two weeks and I will not turn them over to anybody else.  I will use my weeks when I want to.  I will rent my weeks out if I ever want to.  If Marriott decided to stop the Marriott only preference period in II, I will continue to trade, most likely in II but if they do not get the job done I will try one of the other trading companies, or work out direct trades.  If resale value drops I will not like it, heck my Manor Club has already dropped a bunch since I bought, I don’t like that either, I can still feed my kids and pay my mortgage.
> 
> My life will not be turned up-side-down my any announcement.  Who knows, maybe it will be something I like; I know it will not be anything that I can’t deal with.  I have enough stress in my life without getting stressed out about my vacation time!
> 
> Ray



Brilliant! The thread should now be closed!


----------



## GaryDouglas

This is the survey that was circulated by Marriott in Nov of '08, although it might be incomplete. Maybe this was a preview of things to come that we didn't fully appreciate at the time...



GaryDouglas said:


> Marriott Vacation Club is considering the introduction of a new usage option for its current Owners focused on enhancing the flexibility of the current product. Today an Owner buys a deeded week which he/she can use in weekly increments at either his/her Home Resort, trade for other resorts within the Marriott system, access an Interval International affiliated resort or trade for Marriott Rewards points.
> The future use options may enable the Owner to break up his/her week into smaller increments of 3 or more nights (possibly even nightly increments) including weekend stays, check-in any day of the week or bank/borrow parts or all of his/her week in the future to stay at a Marriott Vacation Club resort. All this added flexibility is enabled through a points based exchange program referred to in the following questions as the Vacation Points Exchange Program.
> If choosing to enroll, the Owner may either receive Vacation Points for a short-term period (such as up to three years) or in perpetuity (indefinitely). Each year, an annual allotment of Vacation Points would be credited to the Owner for use. The plan is considering the administration of all exchanges (internal within the Marriott Vacation Club system, external to affiliated Interval International resort, trades for Marriott Rewards Points) within the Marriott Vacation Club system to be managed through Marriott Vacation Club instead of Interval International. If an Owner chooses NOT to enroll, he/she would continue to use his/her vacation ownership just like today.
> In the future, if enrolling into the Vacation Points Exchange Program, an Owner might take several trips of different durations to different Marriott Vacation Club resorts within a year. Or he/she might take one trip and bank the remainder of his Vacation Points balance for the next year use. Or he/she might take a trip of 5 nights to a highly demanded resort during peak season. The new flexibility of the program would enable the Owner to customize his/her vacation according to his/her preferences, enabling many different possibilities to vacation with Marriott Vacation Club.
> An Owner could participate in the Vacation Points Exchange Program by enrolling one or more of their current weeks. Based on the unit type and season, they would receive an annual allocation of Vacation Points, which are then available for use. At the end of each year, your unused Vacation Points would either be 'banked' into the next year or expire and you would receive your next annual allocation of Vacation Points.
> Weeks which are in high demand (demand is based on following factors: resort owned, week owned, view owned) will be worth more Vacation Points than those weeks which are in less demand. Future vacation options would be evaluated based on the same criteria. For example, Ski Season in Park City, UT would require more Vacation Points than Hilton Head during the winter. It is therefore possible that when trading in your week you might not have enough Vacation Points available to access a particular resort at the time of year you desire. In that case you would have the option of banking and borrowing or purchasing more Vacation Points. Conversely, if you have a highly demanded week you might have more than enough Vacation Points to access the resort of your choosing and could use the remaining Vacation Points for another trip.
> For example, assume you own a 2-bedroom Villa during Platinum season, and you're given an annual allocation of 28,900 Vacation Points. The following are four hypothetical scenarios of how you could use your 28,900 Vacation Points in the future:
> Option 1 - Minimal change, use your full points for a full week at a resort you desire
> · Go to Myrtle Beach during Platinum season and stay in a 2-bedroom villa for 7 nights.
> Option 2 - Change the number of bedroom and access a more highly demanded resort during peak season
> · Go to the Caribbean to stay at a 1 bedroom during Platinum season for 7 nights
> Option 3 - Change the number of days and season when you travel and turn 7 days into 14 days
> · Go to Las Vegas to stay at a 1-bedroom during Platinum Season for a weekend (2 nights), AND go to Mountain Region resort to stay at a 2-bedroom during Silver Season for 7 nights AND go to Orlando to stay at a 2-bedroom during Gold Season for 5 weekday night
> Option 4 - Bank one year of Vacation Points to go to Hawaii
> · Through banking one year of Points, you will have 57,800 Points
> · Go to Hawaii for a 2-bedroom during Platinum Season for 7 nights and still have 9,000 Vacation Points to bank to the following year
> Today, you trade your week hoping to be confirmed into a high demand destination. In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, your current week may not provide you with the annual Vacation Points required to access a 2-bedroom villa at/during a high-demand destination or week, but you would know the required Vacation Points needed to access the high demand destination prior to making the reservation.
> 
> What do you think about the concept that in the new program not all weeks equal the same number of Vacation Points?
> *Consolidated Service Fee*
> In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, fees that are currently paid on a per transaction basis may be consolidated (with the exception of maintenance fees). For example, currently Owners pay the following fees (depending on usage) when using their week.
> 
> Reservation change fee
> $29
> Lock-off Use
> $75
> Split-week Use
> $75
> Interval International Annual Membership Fee
> $64
> Interval International Internal Exchange Fee
> $99
> Domestic Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
> $104
> International Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
> $124
> Interval International External Exchange Fee Domestic
> $139
> Interval International External Exchange Fee International
> $154
> 
> In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, there may be an annual fee of $159 which may include these and other transaction fees currently paid on a per transaction basis.
> All internal reservations to Marriott Vacation Club resorts may be managed through Marriott Vacation Club. You would no longer use Interval International to trade to another Marriott Vacation Club resort. Trading to a resort outside of the Marriott Vacation Club system would still require the use of Interval International, but this may be managed through Marriott Vacation Club.
> How appealing do you rate the concept of an annual Consolidated Service Fee?
> *Reservation Window* - The reservation window is the period during which you are able to make a reservation for varying lengths of stay. Currently you can book either 13 or 12 months before your arrival date depending on the number of weeks you own. Please assume at the time of reservation you have enough Vacation Points available to make that reservation. Marriott Vacation Club is considering setting the reservation window as follows:
> · Reservations can be made 12 months before date of occupancy, with a requirement to make reservations of 7 nights or more
> · At 6 months before date of occupancy reservations can be booked for 3 nights or more
> · At 1 month before date of occupancy, reservations can be booked in nightly increments
> *Any Day Check-In* - As part of the new Vacation Points Exchange Program, Marriott Vacation Club is considering offering Any Day Check-In. In other words, you would be allowed to check in on any day of the week, not just on weekends as it is today.
> *Weekend Stays* - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program, Marriott Vacation Club is considering offering Weekend stays. You would check in on a Friday or Saturday and check out on Sunday or Monday.
> *Enrollment Period* – If you chose to enroll in the Vacation Points Exchange Program, it might be for a three year period. After three years you would have the choice to auto-enroll (no action required) your week(s) or return to the current program (opting out). How desirable would a three year term be?
> *Home Resort Guarantee* - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program an option may be offered to retain the home resort priority you currently have with your week. A new option may be offered in addition to, or in place of your home resort priority that would guarantee a fixed week at the resort where you currently own for a period of 3 years. This option would be limited to a specific percentage of villas for each week of the year.
> *Preferred Resort Priority* - Instead of a Home Resort Guarantee, what if you had priority access to a group of similar resorts (such as beach locations, golf resorts etc) for a period of time? For example, if you could specify that for the next three years you would have priority access to any property within the Marriott Vacation Club system that has direct beach access. Similarly, what if you could pick the three specific resorts within the Marriott Vacation Club system you want to stay at for the next three years and have a priority access to those resorts?
> Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of *$3750* to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?
> To recap, the main elements of the Vacation Points Exchange Program include the following:
> · Consolidated Service Fee
> · All internal exchanges managed by Marriott Vacation Club
> · Reservation Window (ability to make the reservation at the point most convenient to you)
> · Any Day Check-In
> · Weekend Stays
> · Home Resort Guarantee
> · Preferred Resort Priority
> · Banking/Borrowing
> · Variable length of vacation
> · Flexible number of bedrooms
> *Potential Membership Levels* – Marriott Vacation Club is considering introducing a tiered loyalty program where Owners would gain access to specific benefits in reward for their loyalty.
> If Marriott implements the above described Vacation Points Exchange Program, new properties may be sold within this program. Rather than selling a deeded week, Marriott would be offering a certain amount of Vacation Points for sale. These Vacation Points could then be used in the same way as you would use your Vacation Points if you enroll your week.


----------



## scrapngen

PerryM said:


> Absolutely correct!
> 
> You know what's going to be a kick in the head- all those Marriott owners too stupid to get a lawyer to review their original sales documents are going to do the same damn thing all over again as they sign away their weeks into the new system.
> 
> So how do you feel sorry for 95% of the folks being that stupid?
> 
> I'm not trying to be holier than thou since I'm in that 95% camp but honestly folks what's wrong with us?



Oh, to be a fly on the wall when Perry talks to a saleman   after the possible changes come rolling out. Hopefully, for their sake,  they'll have gone through this thread with a fine-tooth comb and have quite the spin for him, as opposed to all other TUGGER's, as opposed to other Marriott owners.  :hysterical: :hysterical: 

OK, while I see you, Perry,  as the ultimate gloom and doomer - maybe just for fun, maybe for real - you have certainly led the charge to get  everyone disecting potential scenarios and pitfalls. I see that as sometimes irritating when it goes too far down the "horrible, horrible Marriott," but also helpful when it suggests something either not thought of or not fully considered. And then all the collective minds full of years of info cross-examine said scenario, sometimes adding more.  While we won't be able to "see" all of these potential downsides even if we are able to read the fine print - due to the nature and speculation about how Marriott will handle its own weeks, point weeks, non-point weeks, dog weeks, etc. Pointer/setter weeks?, we may have a better idea of what we are presented with, than if we walked into it without having viewed this crazy thread. Or else we are more confused than ever? :rofl: 

OTOH, I'm hopeful that Marriott has a reasonable change that they've taken a lot of time and energy working on. Yes, it will obviously have to benefit them, but if it also makes our TS's more flexible and comparable to other "good" point systems, rather than "bad" ones, then it might be the greatest thing since the invention of post-its and duct tape. Or not. I'll wait for the next thread and take some time before any more purchases. As a newbie who bought fixed weeks HI, I am supposedly the one who will jump quickest. But the idea of losing home resort and my specific weeks will be a hard sell unless it is some kind of overlay. (Which seems to be optimistic ) 
Where I find it truly interesting is in any future additions to our weeks. - maybe buy some points, rather than "up"grade, or chance it that it will take a long time to see problems reserving and get a bargain week deed if resale drops significantly??


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning...

The survey model shown in the previous post actually looks reasonable.  What could it hurt (besides a few $$$$) to give it a 3 year "shot"?  AS an exchanger (mostly) with tons of flexibilty on travel time this could be right in my "wheelhouse".  The mostly "use of home week" crowd might find this a bit risky and might "pass".  The concept of the upgrading to "fixed week at home resort" and the "grouped resort priority" seem worth exploring.  This time the attorney's will be inspecting the prospectus evaluating the "fine print"....

worst case scenario is that in in 3 years you are back at "square one" 

I never realized how much those "nickle/dime" fees of exchanging really do add up.  Perhaps this will be close to cost "nuetral".  We shall see!!!


----------



## PerryM

*Sorry, SOL is SOL....*



DanCali said:


> Not to take Marriott's side on this but if Marriott does book at 9am before everyone else why is that an unfair advantage? Anyone can write a Java application that logs into the website at 9am EST at 12 months out and makes a reservation on their behalf... I haven't seen a rule against it. It'd be quite useful for those on the West coast!



Now that's the attitude I've been looking for - bare-knuckle developer fight against the owners and guess who wins?

I don't know if Marriott wants to offer a concierge service where they stock the fridge with your order and its ready for you when you check in to a reservation that they did the same thing.  

But let's say the Marriott lawyers put on the frown face and nix that idea - how about letting the Marriott owner in the new system fill out a form, a month in advance, to request a vacation, heck maybe even an alternative.

Then at 8:00 AM CST on the morning the computer knows is the right morning to place those requests all 10,000 are instantly dumped into the queue line that opens.  I mean .0000000001 seconds after 8:00 AM.

The same thing happens - you, the non member are SOL.

Come on folks it's no longer owner fighting owner to get reservations it's mother hen Marriott against you and you don't stand a chance.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Now that's the attitude I've been looking for - bare-knuckle developer fight against the owners and guess who wins?
> 
> I don't know if Marriott wants to offer a concierge service where they stock the fridge with your order and its ready for you when you check in to a reservation that they did the same thing.
> 
> But let's say the Marriott lawyers put on the frown face and nix that idea - how about letting the Marriott owner in the new system fill out a form, a month in advance, to request a vacation, heck maybe even an alternative.
> 
> Then at 8:00 AM CST on the morning the computer knows is the right morning to place those requests all 10,000 are instantly dumped into the queue line that opens.  I mean .0000000001 seconds after 8:00 AM.
> 
> The same thing happens - you, the non member are SOL.
> 
> Come on folks it's no longer owner fighting owner to get reservations it's mother hen Marriott against you and you don't stand a chance.



Once again I have to ask you, this happens in what other points based reservation system? Why can't Marriott do this now with their floating weeks system? All they have to do is have their computer application ready to reserve the best weeks available at the 13 month (they ARE mult. week owners aren't they?) and 12 month mark.

Come on Perry, your paranoia is overwhelming. It's NOT going to be that bad. The worst thing is that all your paranoid delusions aren't going to change the fact that the system will eventually change. There is no points system in timeshareland nearly as bad as what you continue to describe and all the major hotel developers have already gone to a points based internal reservations system.


----------



## GregT

GaryDouglas said:


> Marriott Vacation Club is considering the introduction of a new usage option for its current Owners focused on enhancing the flexibility of the current product. Today an Owner buys a deeded week which he/she can use in weekly increments at either his/her Home Resort, trade for other resorts within the Marriott system, access an Interval International affiliated resort or trade for Marriott Rewards points.
> The future use options may enable the Owner to break up his/her week into smaller increments of 3 or more nights (possibly even nightly increments) including weekend stays, check-in any day of the week or bank/borrow parts or all of his/her week in the future to stay at a Marriott Vacation Club resort. All this added flexibility is enabled through a points based exchange program referred to in the following questions as the Vacation Points Exchange Program.
> If choosing to enroll, the Owner may either receive Vacation Points for a short-term period (such as up to three years) or in perpetuity (indefinitely). Each year, an annual allotment of Vacation Points would be credited to the Owner for use. The plan is considering the administration of all exchanges (internal within the Marriott Vacation Club system, external to affiliated Interval International resort, trades for Marriott Rewards Points) within the Marriott Vacation Club system to be managed through Marriott Vacation Club instead of Interval International. If an Owner chooses NOT to enroll, he/she would continue to use his/her vacation ownership just like today.
> In the future, if enrolling into the Vacation Points Exchange Program, an Owner might take several trips of different durations to different Marriott Vacation Club resorts within a year. Or he/she might take one trip and bank the remainder of his Vacation Points balance for the next year use. Or he/she might take a trip of 5 nights to a highly demanded resort during peak season. The new flexibility of the program would enable the Owner to customize his/her vacation according to his/her preferences, enabling many different possibilities to vacation with Marriott Vacation Club.
> An Owner could participate in the Vacation Points Exchange Program by enrolling one or more of their current weeks. Based on the unit type and season, they would receive an annual allocation of Vacation Points, which are then available for use. At the end of each year, your unused Vacation Points would either be 'banked' into the next year or expire and you would receive your next annual allocation of Vacation Points.
> Weeks which are in high demand (demand is based on following factors: resort owned, week owned, view owned) will be worth more Vacation Points than those weeks which are in less demand. Future vacation options would be evaluated based on the same criteria. For example, Ski Season in Park City, UT would require more Vacation Points than Hilton Head during the winter. It is therefore possible that when trading in your week you might not have enough Vacation Points available to access a particular resort at the time of year you desire. In that case you would have the option of banking and borrowing or purchasing more Vacation Points. Conversely, if you have a highly demanded week you might have more than enough Vacation Points to access the resort of your choosing and could use the remaining Vacation Points for another trip.
> For example, assume you own a 2-bedroom Villa during Platinum season, and you're given an annual allocation of 28,900 Vacation Points. The following are four hypothetical scenarios of how you could use your 28,900 Vacation Points in the future:
> Option 1 - Minimal change, use your full points for a full week at a resort you desire
> · Go to Myrtle Beach during Platinum season and stay in a 2-bedroom villa for 7 nights.
> Option 2 - Change the number of bedroom and access a more highly demanded resort during peak season
> · Go to the Caribbean to stay at a 1 bedroom during Platinum season for 7 nights
> Option 3 - Change the number of days and season when you travel and turn 7 days into 14 days
> · Go to Las Vegas to stay at a 1-bedroom during Platinum Season for a weekend (2 nights), AND go to Mountain Region resort to stay at a 2-bedroom during Silver Season for 7 nights AND go to Orlando to stay at a 2-bedroom during Gold Season for 5 weekday night
> Option 4 - Bank one year of Vacation Points to go to Hawaii
> · Through banking one year of Points, you will have 57,800 Points
> · Go to Hawaii for a 2-bedroom during Platinum Season for 7 nights and still have 9,000 Vacation Points to bank to the following year
> Today, you trade your week hoping to be confirmed into a high demand destination. In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, your current week may not provide you with the annual Vacation Points required to access a 2-bedroom villa at/during a high-demand destination or week, but you would know the required Vacation Points needed to access the high demand destination prior to making the reservation.
> 
> What do you think about the concept that in the new program not all weeks equal the same number of Vacation Points?
> Consolidated Service Fee
> In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, fees that are currently paid on a per transaction basis may be consolidated (with the exception of maintenance fees). For example, currently Owners pay the following fees (depending on usage) when using their week.
> 
> Reservation change fee
> $29
> Lock-off Use
> $75
> Split-week Use
> $75
> Interval International Annual Membership Fee
> $64
> Interval International Internal Exchange Fee
> $99
> Domestic Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
> $104
> International Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
> $124
> Interval International External Exchange Fee Domestic
> $139
> Interval International External Exchange Fee International
> $154
> 
> In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, there may be an annual fee of $159 which may include these and other transaction fees currently paid on a per transaction basis.
> All internal reservations to Marriott Vacation Club resorts may be managed through Marriott Vacation Club. You would no longer use Interval International to trade to another Marriott Vacation Club resort. Trading to a resort outside of the Marriott Vacation Club system would still require the use of Interval International, but this may be managed through Marriott Vacation Club.
> How appealing do you rate the concept of an annual Consolidated Service Fee?
> Reservation Window - The reservation window is the period during which you are able to make a reservation for varying lengths of stay. Currently you can book either 13 or 12 months before your arrival date depending on the number of weeks you own. Please assume at the time of reservation you have enough Vacation Points available to make that reservation. Marriott Vacation Club is considering setting the reservation window as follows:
> · Reservations can be made 12 months before date of occupancy, with a requirement to make reservations of 7 nights or more
> · At 6 months before date of occupancy reservations can be booked for 3 nights or more
> · At 1 month before date of occupancy, reservations can be booked in nightly increments
> Any Day Check-In - As part of the new Vacation Points Exchange Program, Marriott Vacation Club is considering offering Any Day Check-In. In other words, you would be allowed to check in on any day of the week, not just on weekends as it is today.
> Weekend Stays - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program, Marriott Vacation Club is considering offering Weekend stays. You would check in on a Friday or Saturday and check out on Sunday or Monday.
> Enrollment Period – If you chose to enroll in the Vacation Points Exchange Program, it might be for a three year period. After three years you would have the choice to auto-enroll (no action required) your week(s) or return to the current program (opting out). How desirable would a three year term be?
> Home Resort Guarantee - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program an option may be offered to retain the home resort priority you currently have with your week. A new option may be offered in addition to, or in place of your home resort priority that would guarantee a fixed week at the resort where you currently own for a period of 3 years. This option would be limited to a specific percentage of villas for each week of the year.
> Preferred Resort Priority - Instead of a Home Resort Guarantee, what if you had priority access to a group of similar resorts (such as beach locations, golf resorts etc) for a period of time? For example, if you could specify that for the next three years you would have priority access to any property within the Marriott Vacation Club system that has direct beach access. Similarly, what if you could pick the three specific resorts within the Marriott Vacation Club system you want to stay at for the next three years and have a priority access to those resorts?
> Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $3750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?
> To recap, the main elements of the Vacation Points Exchange Program include the following:
> · Consolidated Service Fee
> · All internal exchanges managed by Marriott Vacation Club
> · Reservation Window (ability to make the reservation at the point most convenient to you)
> · Any Day Check-In
> · Weekend Stays
> · Home Resort Guarantee
> · Preferred Resort Priority
> · Banking/Borrowing
> · Variable length of vacation
> · Flexible number of bedrooms
> Potential Membership Levels – Marriott Vacation Club is considering introducing a tiered loyalty program where Owners would gain access to specific benefits in reward for their loyalty.
> If Marriott implements the above described Vacation Points Exchange Program, new properties may be sold within this program. Rather than selling a deeded week, Marriott would be offering a certain amount of Vacation Points for sale. These Vacation Points could then be used in the same way as you would use your Vacation Points if you enroll your week.



If this is what a points program ends up looking like, it is consistent with much of what we've been saying:

1) Marriott's been thinking about this a long time
2) They've solicited the existing users to get their reaction 
3) They're looking for ways to leverage their existing system
4) They've captured a number of desirable things from other point systems

The three year period concept is novel.

None of this precludes Perry's fear of Marriott's bad faith, ie, gaming the reservation system (if there is only one pool of inventory), being able to change the rules again down the road, and also building new resorts that have higher points allocation (like HGVC and Worldmark) that dilute the existing inventory for either all users (one inventory) or just points users (two inventories).

This was an excellent email to find and post.  Thanks very much.


----------



## PerryM

*Marriott and the finger....*



dougp26364 said:


> Once again I have to ask you, this happens in what other points based reservation system? Why can't Marriott do this now with their floating weeks system? All they have to do is have their computer application ready to reserve the best weeks available at the 13 month (they ARE mult. week owners aren't they?) and 12 month mark.
> 
> Come on Perry, your paranoia is overwhelming. It's NOT going to be that bad. The worst thing is that all your paranoid delusions aren't going to change the fact that the system will eventually change. There is no points system in timeshareland nearly as bad as what you continue to describe and all the major hotel developers have already gone to a points based internal reservations system.



Guys, we need to put on our thinking caps.

Up until next week Marriott could care less about reservations and exchanges.  Their computers and human operators took your request and processed them at a leisurely pace since they had no bone in that fight.

They helped you with depositing that reservation into II and that's their end in the matter.

Starting next week reservations becomes a HUGE focus to Marriott - the ability to get a reservation, for their members, is a TOP priority.

So how do you make your members happy when the whole goal is a reservation?  You allow your members to make reservations 14 months out instead of 13 months.

Platinum Members reserve 14 months out
Gold Members reserve 58 (13.5 months) weeks out
Silver Members reserve 13 months and 1 week out

So as a Platinum Member your vacationing calendar goes 14 months into the future - you see Week 52 at MountainSide is open and you click it to make a reservation.  You got it!

How can this be you say?

Marriott can combine Week 51 in front of 52 and week 50 in front of that and the 50% inventory dedicated to 13 month reservations will ALWAYS be snapped up before a non-member can get in there.  (Weeks 49-50-51-52 to get New Year's Week; these are other members' orders used to making chains; remember it can be week 49 at ANY Marriott in this chain)  And, of course, 13 month reservations will be available to non-members on the web page so its all computerized an no phone call is needed anymore.

Then those Platinum members who didn't get filled 14 months out will have to wait until they get a notice, 2 months later, that they do have a reservation for week 52 at MountainSide.

How can this be you say?

12 months to the nanosecond Marriott took all the pre-orders and dumped them into the reservation system at 8:00:0000001 AM CST - while your index finger muscle was just beginning to click your mouse.  This is the 12 month inventory which is 50% of the total units available for reservations that week.

I don't know if Marriott will introduce pre-reservations to VIP owners but I sure would.  Doesn't violate any rule that I can think of.

P.S.
As to other developers I don't know their reservation system and if it is so easy to out maneuver as Marriott's.

Those of you content pulling out your deed and telling yourself Marriott can't touch it - you are right!  The problem is you will never get your dream vacation outside the new system.


----------



## tombo

I have read this thread on and off with interest and fear of the upcoming  changes stopped me from buying a Marriott platinum week for a steal recently. I ALMOST NEVER agree with Perry and we have had numerous heated debates on the merits of destination clubs and ROFR in the past, but I grudgingly admit that I am afraid that most of what he is saying is true. Yes Perry, bookmark this post, I agree with you. 

If Marriott doesn't change the points program to where those who convert to points have huge advantages over those who don't convert, then Marriott  won't be able to effectivelly market their points program. The translation to Marriott owners is if the points owners get advantages, the deeded owners will be at a DISADVANTAGE. That is the simple fact. Also Marriott will not want to have the best weeks deposited in II with weeks owners having frst shot at them, so they will probably force II to give Marriott Points members first shot with an earlier II booking window, or Marriott will simply raid the deposited weeks and put them in the inventory pool for the internal points exchanges. Once you deposit your week, you never know for sure where it went, who got it, or how they got it.

I own at 2 different resorts that decided that they could make a lot of money fleecing current deeded owners by starting points programs. They sell by telling you all the advantages of points and by threatening that deeded weeks will become worthless if an owner doesn't pony up $1000's to become points members. The fact of the matter is that a 3 day weekend on the beach in the summer never is available no matter what they tell you. The available single nights are nights and time frames no one wants to stay there. 

Some people here like the fact that Marriott's poll mentioned giving owners home resort fixed week advantage for 3 years if they convert to points. One of my resorts did just that and it is a lose lose for all owners. I own a beachfront deeded week 25 which is a PRIME June week but my resort is like marriott and the weeks float during the time frame you purchased. I was informed that for $5000 I could book the week on my deed (week 25) 12 months in advance where other points owners couldn't book until 10 months in advance giving me a home resort fixed annual  advantage. I said i have been getting lucky and reserving 4th of July weeks more often than not through the years by being on the phone at the first available second you could book and if  booked week 25 I wouldn't ever get 4th of July. They said you won't ever get 4th of July again anyway since almost all owners who had week 26 or 27 on their deeds had converted locking them in forever. Since the resort started this program 3 years ago I have not once been able to book a 4th of July week. Advantage to those who convert to points, loss of former access of inventory to those who won't convert.

If Marriott does the same or similar thing the deeded owners will buy 3 year rights to fixed home resort weeks locking other owners out from exchanging for those weeks, and costing the owners who lock in those weeks $1000's of dollars in extortion fees due every three years! Lose-lose for owners. Pay Marriott for what you already paid for the right to do (exchange for weeks in your deeded group, plat, gold,etc), or pay more for a priviledge that other wners don't get and keep paying for it every three years.

Perry I will keep reading and suprisingly in this situation probably keep agreeing with you, but to the owners assuming that this can't be bad for you, from my experience when a resort starts to market points they do so by giving former deeded week's owership benefits to those who pay the extortion to become points members. I could be wrong about this, and so could Perry, but from my experience I doubt it.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Guys, we need to put on our thinking caps.
> 
> Up until next week Marriott could care less about reservations and exchanges.  Their computers and human operators took your request and processed them at a leisurely pace since they had no bone in that fight.
> 
> They helped you with depositing that reservation into II and that's their end in the matter.
> 
> Starting next week reservations becomes a HUGE focus to Marriott - the ability to get a reservation, for their members, is a TOP priority.
> 
> So how do you make your members happy when the whole goal is a reservation?  You allow your members to make reservations 14 months out instead of 13 months.
> 
> Platinum Members reserve 14 months out
> Gold Members reserve 58 (13.5 months) weeks out
> Silver Members reserve 13 months and 1 week out
> 
> So as a Platinum Member your vacationing calendar goes 14 months into the future - you see Week 52 at MountainSide is open and you click it to make a reservation.  You got it!
> 
> How can this be you say?
> 
> Marriott can combine Week 51 in front of 52 and week 50 in front of that and the 50% inventory dedicated to 13 month reservations will ALWAYS be snapped up before a non-member can get in there.  (Weeks 49-50-51-52 to get New Year's Week; these are other members' orders used to making chains; remember it can be week 49 at ANY Marriott in this chain)  And, of course, 13 month reservations will be available to non-members on the web page so its all computerized an no phone call is needed anymore.
> 
> Then those Platinum members who didn't get filled 14 months out will have to wait until they get a notice, 2 months later, that they do have a reservation for week 52 at MountainSide.
> 
> How can this be you say?
> 
> 12 months to the nanosecond Marriott took all the pre-orders and dumped them into the reservation system at 8:00:0000001 AM CST - while your index finger muscle was just beginning to click your mouse.  This is the 12 month inventory which is 50% of the total units available for reservations that week.
> 
> I don't know if Marriott will introduce pre-reservations to VIP owners but I sure would.  Doesn't violate any rule that I can think of.
> 
> P.S.
> As to other developers I don't know their reservation system and if it is so easy to out maneuver as Marriott's.
> 
> Those of you content pulling out your deed and telling yourself Marriott can't touch it - you are right!  The problem is you will never get your dream vacation outside the new system.



You are really overthinking this thing. There appears to be a shooter on every grassy knoll, behind every building and sitting in every tree along the parade route. I'm sure you'll hit on one or two things and be able to crow "I told you so" but, you'll miss on 99% of all the fear mongering your doing in anticipation of any new internal exchange system Marriott might be about to announce. 

At this point, what I think would be the funniest thing on TUG is if 2010 passes and nothing happens. :hysterical:


----------



## rsackett

_Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryDouglas  
"...
In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, fees that are currently paid on a per transaction basis may be consolidated (with the exception of maintenance fees). For example, currently Owners pay the following fees (depending on usage) when using their week. 

Reservation change fee
$29
Lock-off Use 
$75
Split-week Use
$75
Interval International Annual Membership Fee
$64
Interval International Internal Exchange Fee
$99
Domestic Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
$104
International Trade for Marriott Rewards Points 
$124
Interval International External Exchange Fee Domestic
$139
Interval International External Exchange Fee International
$154

In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, there may be an annual fee of $159 which may include these and other transaction fees currently paid on a per transaction basis. ...

...Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $3750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?...."_

*Up until the $3750 fee for THREE years they had me interested.  That fee for THREE years is more than I paid for my Harbour Point week!  Almost 1/2 the price I paied for my Manor Club week.  I will just keep using my week as I do now, thank you very much. :rofl: 

Ray*


----------



## dougp26364

dougp26364 said:


> *Perry, can you name ONE points based reservations system with the abuses you think Marriott will pull if/when they announce their new system? *I belong to HGVC and DRI and don't see any of the abuses you're so worried about. Does Worldmark screw their owners over the way you seem to think Marriott is going to do?





PerryM said:


> *I don't think there is one *- doesn't mean Marriott can't be the first.
> 
> We will have to read about reservations next week and how Marriott intends to handle them.
> 
> Marriott can simply let all the members, with enough Points, make the reservations themselves or offer a concierge service where they do it for you if you're a Platinum member for instance.
> 
> Can't guess how Marriott intends to set up their caste system and reward folks who pay to become part of a higher membership level.
> 
> But just because no other developer hasn't offered the service doesn't mean Marriott might not.
> 
> P.S.
> WM is a Point system where everyone is treated the same.  (Well not really but the difference is so small as to be the same)  Marriott already has a 2 tier caste system of Member and Non-Member and might have a third one for resale Member too.
> 
> You know for 4 years Marriott has been telling us "Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry" - I believe them.
> 
> I just see no reason to put on my rosy glasses and assume Marriott will play nice...



Tombo,

Even Perry has admitted that he can't name one points based system that abuses it's owners as he seems to think Marriott is going to do. F.E.A.R. is False Evidence Appearing Real. Don't let Perry scare you based on non-facts and assumptions he's making. Like me he knows how to play the exchange game in the current system. Like me he knows that may be coming to an end. Unlike me he see's shadows lurking in the corners and he thinks it's a Marriott employee out to get him. 

I own two points based timeshares. They're are much better systems than what Marriott offers today. Rather than being fearful I'm excited to see what Marriott will offer.....assuming they offer something. Every other major hotel chain/timeshare management company has a points based internal exchange system EXCEPT for Marriott. Do you see any of their owners screaming that the management company is scimming all the best weeks or that they can't reserve the really good weeks? No you don't. Now ask yourself, would Marriott, who has a reputation for being one of the best timeshare developer/management companies in the industry really turn themselves into an evil empire like Westgate? Come on, use some common sense, it's not going to happen.


----------



## dougp26364

rsackett said:


> _Quote:
> Originally Posted by GaryDouglas
> "...
> In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, fees that are currently paid on a per transaction basis may be consolidated (with the exception of maintenance fees). For example, currently Owners pay the following fees (depending on usage) when using their week.
> 
> Reservation change fee
> $29
> Lock-off Use
> $75
> Split-week Use
> $75
> Interval International Annual Membership Fee
> $64
> Interval International Internal Exchange Fee
> $99
> Domestic Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
> $104
> International Trade for Marriott Rewards Points
> $124
> Interval International External Exchange Fee Domestic
> $139
> Interval International External Exchange Fee International
> $154
> 
> In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, there may be an annual fee of $159 which may include these and other transaction fees currently paid on a per transaction basis. ...
> 
> ...Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $3750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?...."_
> 
> *Up until the $3750 fee for THREE years they had me interested.  That fee for THREE years is more than I paid for my Harbour Point week!  Almost 1/2 the price I paied for my Manor Club week.  I will just keep using my week as I do now, thank you very much. :rofl:
> 
> Ray*



$1,250 per year is WAY out of line with what other internal points exchange programs charge for their membership fee's. DRI is $235 and includes Interval Gold membership and all internal exchanges have no exchange fee. HGVC has a membership fee of $95 but everything else is ala carte pricing. The $95 covers your RCI membership fee.

I doubt Marriott will price themselves out of the business but, I suppose it is possible. If they think I'll pay over $1,000 in membership fee's then I'll be like you and say thanks but no thanks. Personally, based on the market and what other clubs charge, I just don't see this as feasable. I bet Marriott management isn't that stupid either.


----------



## MRMarriott

*Inventory through Marriott*

It's silly to think that Marriott will simply be banking inventory, waiting with androids for 8:00:0000001 on check-in mornings. That's just not how inventory works. 

If someone decides to become a points owner, then that frees up their inventory. In all likelihood, it will create more inventory during peak times! A points system fundamentally benefits those who have the highest valued weeks and is a detriment to those with bronze or silver seasons. 

Imagine if the thread above is correct and you own Maui Christmas. You see that, yes, you can get Maui during Christmas, but you can also take a huge pool of points and spend 21 days somewhere else. That's an amazing option, and taking that option frees up a Maui Christmas that the owner would have likely stayed. 

Also, I've read somewhere on these boards that 22% of owners elect to trade for points in the current system, and have to do it before the year begins. That's 22% of Marriott's inventory that can be dumped into the points system. And it's not the prime weeks - it's weeks that are leftover since owners who could have booked 12 months or 13 months ahead already did so. 

I for one am a big fan of my club and will listen closely to what Marriott has to tell me. If they are going to make it more flexible and easier to use, I don't see how we're getting shafted.

Have a little faith.


----------



## taffy19

MRMarriott said:


> It's silly to think that Marriott will simply be banking inventory, waiting with androids for 8:00:0000001 on check-in mornings. That's just not how inventory works.
> 
> If someone decides to become a points owner, then that frees up their inventory. In all likelihood, it will create more inventory during peak times! A points system fundamentally benefits those who have the highest valued weeks and is a detriment to those with bronze or silver seasons.
> 
> Imagine if the thread above is correct and you own Maui Christmas. You see that, yes, you can get Maui during Christmas, but you can also take a huge pool of points and spend 21 days somewhere else. That's an amazing option, and taking that option frees up a Maui Christmas that the owner would have likely stayed.
> 
> Also, I've read somewhere on these boards that 22% of owners elect to trade for points in the current system, and have to do it before the year begins. That's 22% of Marriott's inventory that can be dumped into the points system. And it's not the prime weeks - it's weeks that are leftover since owners who could have booked 12 months or 13 months ahead already did so.
> 
> I for one am a big fan of my club and will listen closely to what Marriott has to tell me. If they are going to make it more flexible and easier to use, I don't see how we're getting shafted.
> 
> Have a little faith.


Don't tell me that you are the Mr. Marriott?  If so, welcome to TUG.    I would like you to know that I am extremely worried and upset that these rumors have been floating around for so long.  If you are not the Mr. Marriott, then I hope that someone of the Marriott Company is reading these posts anyway.

PS.  How many Mr. Marriotts are there?


----------



## SueDonJ

GaryDouglas said:


> This is the survey that was circulated by Marriott in Nov of '08, although it might be incomplete. Maybe this was a preview of things to come that we didn't fully appreciate at the time...



Thanks so much, Gary!  It's great to see in this thread something concrete from Marriott that we can wrap our brains around.  I remember some of this floating around TUG when some folks got the survey, but you're the only one of us who's put his thinking cap on tightly enough to find it and post it here.  A gold star for you!

There's some interesting, enticing tidbits in there.  This is going to be fun.


----------



## SueDonJ

MRMarriott said:


> It's silly to think that Marriott will simply be banking inventory, waiting with androids for 8:00:0000001 on check-in mornings. That's just not how inventory works.
> 
> If someone decides to become a points owner, then that frees up their inventory. In all likelihood, it will create more inventory during peak times! A points system fundamentally benefits those who have the highest valued weeks and is a detriment to those with bronze or silver seasons.
> 
> Imagine if the thread above is correct and you own Maui Christmas. You see that, yes, you can get Maui during Christmas, but you can also take a huge pool of points and spend 21 days somewhere else. That's an amazing option, and taking that option frees up a Maui Christmas that the owner would have likely stayed.
> 
> Also, I've read somewhere on these boards that 22% of owners elect to trade for points in the current system, and have to do it before the year begins. That's 22% of Marriott's inventory that can be dumped into the points system. And it's not the prime weeks - it's weeks that are leftover since owners who could have booked 12 months or 13 months ahead already did so.
> 
> I for one am a big fan of my club and will listen closely to what Marriott has to tell me. If they are going to make it more flexible and easier to use, I don't see how we're getting shafted.
> 
> *Have a little faith.*





iconnections said:


> Don't tell me that you are the Mr. Marriott?  If so, welcome to TUG.    I would like you to know that I am extremely worried and upset that these rumors have been floating around for so long.  If you are not the Mr. Marriott, then I hope that someone of the Marriott Company is reading these posts anyway.
> 
> PS.  How many Mr. Marriotts are there?



He's either Mr. Marriott, or George Michael.

<groan>


----------



## SueDonJ

scrapngen said:


> ... point weeks, non-point weeks, dog weeks, etc. Pointer/setter weeks? ...



Good post all around, gen, but the "Pointer/setter weeks" made me :rofl:


----------



## tombo

dougp26364 said:


> Tombo,
> 
> Even Perry has admitted that he can't name one points based system that abuses it's owners as he seems to think Marriott is going to do. F.E.A.R. is False Evidence Appearing Real. Don't let Perry scare you based on non-facts and assumptions he's making. Like me he knows how to play the exchange game in the current system. Like me he knows that may be coming to an end. Unlike me he see's shadows lurking in the corners and he thinks it's a Marriott employee out to get him.



Let me name 2 points based systems who have done the things I dscribed at resorts I own. Festiva and Escapes. 

If you think Marriott is rolling out a program with no advantages for those who convert to points over those who don't, you are in for a rude awakening. can you imagine the salesman saying if you swap to points you can do blah, and you respond I can do that now. Then he says well if you swap to points you can do blah blah. you respond I can do that too. They would never convert anyone! They have to give advantages to points members, and advantages given to those who convert translate into disadvantages for those who refuse to.


----------



## MRMarriott

*Possible Advantages*

Well, again, if the post above is correct from the letter sent out (Thanks for that, very enlightening!), then it looks like the program is going to be a lot more flexible. 

The great thing about internal exchange is you know exactly what you're getting. Give them this number of points and you've got a reservation (as long as there's inventory, of course). Prime weeks will be easier to get simply because they'll cost a _lot more points_ and owners like us can weigh the advantages and disadvantages of using them. 

Think about how this is better than the current system. You deposit in Interval and ask for prime weeks. You hope and pray to get it. Months go by. Flights increase in cost. Maybe you get it - maybe you don't. It's the worst thing about the system the way it is. 

Second, I think the fact that you can stay 7 nights or 6 nights or just for a weekend is a huge plus that I can't do now. How many of you have had to leave early, or add a night to get a cheaper flight? Now, you don't have to worry about paying more or losing value. You get what you get. 

I own up in MountainSide purely for trades, and I'm tired of dealing with Interval. I also wouldn't mind taking a trip to Grand Chateau, but who wants to stay in Las Vegas for a whole week? If I can take my MountainSide, exchange it for 5 days somewhere and use 2 nights for a weekend in Vegas, Marriott doesn't even have to offer me an advantage to switch.


----------



## SueDonJ

MRMarriott said:


> Well, again, if the post above is correct from the letter sent out (Thanks for that, very enlightening!), then it looks like the program is going to be a lot more flexible.
> 
> The great thing about internal exchange is you know exactly what you're getting. Give them this number of points and you've got a reservation (as long as there's inventory, of course). Prime weeks will be easier to get simply because they'll cost a _lot more points_ and owners like us can weigh the advantages and disadvantages of using them.
> 
> Think about how this is better than the current system. You deposit in Interval and ask for prime weeks. You hope and pray to get it. Months go by. Flights increase in cost. Maybe you get it - maybe you don't. It's the worst thing about the system the way it is.
> 
> Second, I think the fact that you can stay 7 nights or 6 nights or just for a weekend is a huge plus that I can't do now. How many of you have had to leave early, or add a night to get a cheaper flight? Now, you don't have to worry about paying more or losing value. You get what you get.



Yep, instant confirmation of exchanges is an enticement all by itself.  Add in that my 3BR points will get me a 3BR more than .00001% of the time, or will get me an extra vacation without being at the mercy of II's finicky AC offers, and I'm _almost_ sold. 



MRMarriott said:


> I own up in MountainSide purely for trades, and I'm tired of dealing with Interval. I also wouldn't mind taking a trip to Grand Chateau, but who wants to stay in Las Vegas for a whole week? If I can take my MountainSide, exchange it for 5 days somewhere and use 2 nights for a weekend in Vegas, Marriott doesn't even have to offer me an advantage to switch.



Well, that explains it, you're George Michael.  Because none of the rumors on TUG about which resort is Mr. Marriott's favorite mentioned Mountainside.


----------



## tombo

MRMarriott said:


> Second, I think the fact that you can stay 7 nights or 6 nights or just for a weekend is a huge plus that I can't do now. How many of you have had to leave early, or add a night to get a cheaper flight? Now, you don't have to worry about paying more or losing value. You get what you get.
> 
> I own up in MountainSide purely for trades, and I'm tired of dealing with Interval. I also wouldn't mind taking a trip to Grand Chateau, but who wants to stay in Las Vegas for a whole week? If I can take my MountainSide, exchange it for 5 days somewhere and use 2 nights for a weekend in Vegas, Marriott doesn't even have to offer me an advantage to switch.




But you can only get it in theory because all valuable inventory will be booked 12 months in advance. 

From the Marriott survey:
"Reservations can be made 12 months before date of occupancy, with a requirement to make reservations of 7 nights or more 
· At 6 months before date of occupancy reservations can be booked for 3 nights or more 
· At 1 month before date of occupancy, reservations can be booked in nightly increments".

At 6 months (the earliest you can reserve less than 7 nights)no summer weekends at the beach or long weekends at a ski resort in january will remain because all prime weeks available will have been booked the first day by all points owners who had enough points to reserve them. The theory is great, the reality is that only dog inventory will remain available for points reservations at 6 months and especially 1 month before check in. I don't care if you are a points member or a deeded week owner, there never has and never will be any prime inventory available 6 months before check-in. Anyone who has tried to reserve a 4th of july week at the beach one day after the first day you were allowed to reserve can tell you how much prime inventory is left if you are 24 hours late, much less 6 months.


----------



## Asia2000

dougp26364 said:


> $1,250 per year is WAY out of line with what other internal points exchange programs charge for their membership fee's. DRI is $235 and includes Interval Gold membership and all internal exchanges have no exchange fee. HGVC has a membership fee of $95 but everything else is ala carte pricing. The $95 covers your RCI membership fee.
> 
> I doubt Marriott will price themselves out of the business but, I suppose it is possible. If they think I'll pay over $1,000 in membership fee's then I'll be like you and say thanks but no thanks. Personally, based on the market and what other clubs charge, I just don't see this as feasable. I bet Marriott management isn't that stupid either.



I'm not sure everyone read the entire letter.   Marriott is requesting $1,250 per year for you to use your timeshare via the Points program.  For $1,250 a year, I can go rent out a 2 bedroom just about anywhere I want.  Or, I can save $1,250 a year, make good interest on it for a five years, and just go buy another week at a destination of my choice.  Why would I pay this to Marriott when I can invest it and go buy a into a timeshare that does not have $1,250 membership dues?  

Am I missing something here?


----------



## MRMarriott

tombo said:


> But you can only get it in theory because all valuable inventory will be booked 12 months in advance.
> 
> From the Marriott survey:
> "Reservations can be made 12 months before date of occupancy, with a requirement to make reservations of 7 nights or more
> · At 6 months before date of occupancy reservations can be booked for 3 nights or more
> · At 1 month before date of occupancy, reservations can be booked in nightly increments".
> 
> At 6 months (the earliest you can reserve less than 7 nights)no summer weekends at the beach or long weekends at a ski resort in january will remain because all prime weeks available will have been booked the first day by all points owners who had enough points to reserve them. The theory is great, the reality is that only dog weeks will remain available for points reservations at 6 months and especially 1 month before check in. I don't care if you are a points member or a deeded week owner, there never has and never will be any prime inventory available 6 months before check-in. Anyone who has tried to reserve a 4th of july week at the beach one day after the first day you were allowed to reserve can tell you how much prime inventory is left if you are 24 hours late, much less 6 months.



You're right, but I see three advantages that make this new system sound good, even for prime weeks like the 4th or other holidays.

1. More prime weeks available. A lot of these prime weeks are fixed. Now fixed owners will get so many points it will be like a spending spree. Should they get the one big item they're used to, or should they get a lot of smaller items and more vacations? It will be hard to resist all those other options. Besides that, the price for prime will be significantly higher. Has anyone out there read the book "The Price of Everything?" Raising the price of prime will make some owners think twice about booking. Those who want it will get it and pay for it, but 50% of the owners thinking twice means 50% more inventory.

2. More options. If you own in Hilton Head and call for the summer, maybe your resort gets booked up. With internal exchange, though, you can look at all of the resorts 12 months (or 13 months) in advance. So, Surf Watch may be gone, but then you can try for Barony Beach without having to go on an II waitlist. 

3. More flexible. Back to the Hilton Head example. Most clubs are 2-bedrooms that don't lock off. With points as mentioned in the thread, you now have the option to find other beaches and book one room, or a studio, a garden view to save points, or an ocean view. Before you were in this tiny 2-bedroom ocean view box. Now you have all the inventory fit to release at 12 months, including that of the big spenders who are electing to take 3 weeks in a low season for the same cost as the 1 week prime you want. 

I do hope they change the booking rules, though. I agree with that. 1 month out for 1-2 nights doesn't make sense at all. They should make it all 12 months out, regardless of # of nights booked...


----------



## dougp26364

Asia2000 said:


> I'm not sure everyone read the entire letter.   Marriott is requesting $1,250 per year for you to use your timeshare via the Points program.  For $1,250 a year, I can go rent out a 2 bedroom just about anywhere I want.  Or, I can save $1,250 a year, make good interest on it for a five years, and just go buy another week at a destination of my choice.  Why would I pay this to Marriott when I can invest it and go buy a into a timeshare that does not have $1,250 membership dues?
> 
> Am I missing something here?



I thought that's what I was saying. $1,250/year is to rich for my blood and, I'd bet it would be to rich for almost anyones pocketbook. It would make no economic sense for anyone to pay that sort of annual membership fee just to belong to a points based exchange system.


----------



## dougp26364

tombo said:


> But you can only get it in theory because all valuable inventory will be booked 12 months in advance......





Do you own in a points based system? I don't find this to be necessarily true in the two points based systems we use. 

In the current system, owners are going against owners (and Marriott if you will) for the most popular weeks. Some are trying to reserve them for personal use but some are trying to reserve them strictly for exchange power. 

In a points based system there is no incentive to book a holiday week just to deposit for exchange. Points have equal value. That actually leaves MORE inventory for owners.

I believe the reality will be that you'll see more inventory for those that own Marriott and less of the high demand times deposited into Interval for outsiders to snag. Marriott will have a contract that guarentee's Interval a certain number of weeks of a specified quality but, Marriott will still allow owners first choice in reserving the weeks they want for personal usage. 

With our points based ownership, I find MORE availabilty within those systems, not less. The fear that everything is booked 12 months in advance is false.


----------



## laurac260

ok, without having to weed thru 1,957 posts to get to the bottom line....did the dreaded points system roll out yet, now that June is finally here?

And if so, what does it mean to us resale purchasers who bought platinum weeks with the intention to use our weeks at our home resort?


----------



## SueDonJ

Asia2000 said:


> I'm not sure everyone read the entire letter.   Marriott is requesting $1,250 per year for you to use your timeshare via the Points program.  For $1,250 a year, I can go rent out a 2 bedroom just about anywhere I want.  Or, I can save $1,250 a year, make good interest on it for a five years, and just go buy another week at a destination of my choice.  Why would I pay this to Marriott when I can invest it and go buy a into a timeshare that does not have $1,250 membership dues?
> 
> Am I missing something here?



I'm reading it differently - it appears that the $1,250/year is for the "Preferred Resort Priority" which appears to be a separate election:



> Instead of a Home Resort Guarantee, what if you had priority access to a group of similar resorts (such as beach locations, golf resorts etc) for a period of time? For example, if you could specify that for the next three years you would have priority access to any property within the Marriott Vacation Club system that has direct beach access. Similarly, what if you could pick the three specific resorts within the Marriott Vacation Club system you want to stay at for the next three years and have a priority access to those resorts?
> Assume you enroll your week into the Vacation Points Exchange Program and you receive 25,000 Vacation Points. This would be equivalent to the number of Vacation Points a first time buyer would receive for a $25,000 purchase. How likely would you be to pay a fee of $3750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?



It appears that if you don't elect that, the fee would only be $159/year:



> In the Vacation Points Exchange Program, there may be an annual fee of $159 which may include these and other transaction fees currently paid on a per transaction basis.



I'd want to know more about how that Preferred Resort Priority would work, if those folks would have a jump on the 12/6/1-month reservation period which would put the "basic" $159 points owners at a disadvantage, and whether or not the fee is applicable per individual weeks owned.  I think multi-week owners have a distinct advantage anyway, being able to combine  points for all sorts of stays, but if that fee is per ownership instead of per week it might be worth considering.  I'd look at it as another annual m/f and try to figure out if what I own could be worked out to at least another week without sacrificing resort quality.


----------



## tombo

MRMarriott said:


> You're right, but I see three advantages that make this new system sound good, even for prime weeks like the 4th or other holidays.
> 
> 1. More prime weeks available. A lot of these prime weeks are fixed. Now fixed owners will get so many points it will be like a spending spree. Should they get the one big item they're used to, or should they get a lot of smaller items and more vacations? It will be hard to resist all those other options. Besides that, the price for prime will be significantly higher. Has anyone out there read the book "The Price of Everything?" Raising the price of prime will make some owners think twice about booking. Those who want it will get it and pay for it, but 50% of the owners thinking twice means 50% more inventory.
> 
> 2. More options. If you own in Hilton Head and call for the summer, maybe your resort gets booked up. With internal exchange, though, you can look at all of the resorts 12 months (or 13 months) in advance. So, Surf Watch may be gone, but then you can try for Barony Beach without having to go on an II waitlist.
> 
> 3. More flexible. Back to the Hilton Head example. Most clubs are 2-bedrooms that don't lock off. With points as mentioned in the thread, you now have the option to find other beaches and book one room, or a studio, a garden view to save points, or an ocean view. Before you were in this tiny 2-bedroom ocean view box. Now you have all the inventory fit to release at 12 months, including that of the big spenders who are electing to take 3 weeks in a low season for the same cost as the 1 week prime you want.
> 
> I do hope they change the booking rules, though. I agree with that. 1 month out for 1-2 nights doesn't make sense at all. They should make it all 12 months out, regardless of # of nights booked...



Not going to work in reality because:

1. There are limited number of prime weeks at each resort. The number of prime weeks at each resort will not change when Marriott turns to points. Fixed week owners will rarely join points hoping to use their points for a fixed prime week they already own. if you use Marriotts estimate of 22% of owners joing the first year then 78% of all inventory(prime and dog) will remain deeded weeks. The vast majority of people who swap to points will swap because they have had limited success swapping their bronze weeks for good inventory, or because II has not worked well for them, or because the salesman convinced them that they had to or they would be left behind. Now all of these new points members will be ready to get long weekends at the beach and prime weeks they couldn't get before with their newly purchased points. A very small percent of prime inventory will be swapped to points IMO because people who own prime weeks aren't unhappy about what they get each year. Why pay $1000's to upgrade when you already own a prime week that you get each and every year hoping to buy a prime week with points? If marriott doesn't cheat and steal inventory from the deeded owners you will have less chance of getting a prime week in points than in weeks and almost zero chance of swapping points for nightly stays at a time and location you would like to stay.

2. There are no more options since there is no more inventory and in fact there will be less inventory. If they were building new points only resorts, then yes more options, but to simply siphon what inventory they can from the existing system will not create any new inventory or options. if they don't cheat the only inventory available to exchange for internally will be the weeks deposited by those who swapped to points, and that inventory pool will be smaller than II's Marriott inventory for at least a few years.

3. People can't stay 3 weeks unless 3 weeks are deposited. If a one bed room get 12,000 points and he deposits it and a 3 bed room gets 36,000 and they deposit theirs, it takes 3 one bed room owners to get availability for 3 weeks for the 3 bed room owner. If 3 one bed room points owners deposit their 3 weeks, and the 3 bed room owner takes all 3 weeks, what will the one bed room owners buy with their points? They can't buy a 3 bed room because they only have 12,000 points and that costs 36,000. they can't trade for a 2 bed room because that costs 24,000 points and they only have 12,000 points. So 3 one bed room owners deposited their weeks and one 3 bed room owner took all 3 one bed room weeks leaving the 3 one bed room owners out of luck with points they can't trade for anything. Will they be happy with points and willing to deposit their weeks next year? Nope, they will have to shell out extra money for the home resort option to be able to use what they bought. Not a good deal for the one bed room owners at all, and not good for the 3 bed room owner if the one bed room owners get mad and refuse to deposit their weeks into the points pool in the future.

The theory is great. The salesman will promise you the moon and convince you that you can use the points anyway you want to, but the reality is that the points system is not the flexible panacea they tout it to be.


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## SueDonJ

laurac260 said:


> ok, without having to weed thru 1,957 posts to get to the bottom line....did the dreaded points system roll out yet, now that June is finally here?
> 
> And if so, what does it mean to us resale purchasers who bought platinum weeks with the intention to use our weeks at our home resort?



No it did not, we are still dealing in hypothetical dreams and nightmares.   

Come on in and join us, it's fun!


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## GaryDouglas

dougp26364 said:


> I thought that's what I was saying. $1,250/year is to rich for my blood and, I'd bet it would be to rich for almost anyones pocketbook. It would make no economic sense for anyone to pay that sort of annual membership fee just to belong to a points based exchange system.


 
Remember, this was a *survey*, and if I remember correctly, their questions generally tried to discern at what price point someone would consider the options they were proposing. So any hypotheticals were just stakes in the sand.  Anybody else out there remember the same thing?


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## laurac260

SueDonJ said:


> No it did not, we are still dealing in hypothetical dreams and nightmares.
> 
> Come on in and join us, it's fun!



Ok, then I would like to add that I think Marriott was going to give everyone a free timeshare with purchase of the points system.


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## DanCali

> How likely would you be to pay a fee of $3750 to have a Preferred Resort Priority for a three year period?



I was reading this on my phone during breakfast and almost died choking on my cereal when I read it... I then proceeded to involuntarily blurt out the "F word" in front of my 4 year old.

What were they smoking when they wrote that survey?


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## billymach4

DanCali said:


> I was reading this on my phone during breakfast and almost died choking on my cereal when I read it... I then proceeded to involuntarily blurt out the "F word" in front of my 4 year old.
> 
> What were they smoking when they wrote that survey?



Marriottjuana


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## SueDonJ

laurac260 said:


> Ok, then I would like to add that I think Marriott was going to give everyone a free timeshare with purchase of the points system.



A free timeshare, plus one of those really plush huge white beach towels with the resort logo and a refillable mug.  Yeah, that's the ticket.


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## SueDonJ

billymach4 said:


> Marriottjuana



BWAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha!!


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## tombo

DanCali said:


> I was reading this on my phone during breakfast and almost died choking on my cereal when I read it... I then proceeded to involuntarily blurt out the "F word" in front of my 4 year old.
> 
> What were they smoking when they wrote that survey?



Some owners will gladly pay an additional $1250 a year to be guaranteed 4th of july week on the beach in hilton head or new years eve week in Vegas rather than hoping to exchange for those hard to get weeks with their current weeks or newly acquired points. Of course they are buying inventory that was available to all in the past and making it private for the next 3 years. Win for marriott since they get an extra $3750 every 3 years, win for the owners who guarantee themselves the same prime weeks for 3 years, but a lose situation resulting in  reduced inventory for the owners (Points or weeks) who refuse to pay the extortion. 

As I said new advantages given to those who pay to convert have to come at the expense of those who don't because the points system doesn't increase the amount of Marriott inventory in existence, only the way that inventory is allocated. Pay Marriott more money for something you already own, or watch your access to inventory shrink. How can anyone feel like that is a good thing?


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## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> ... Pay Marriott more money for something you already own, or watch your access to inventory shrink. How can anyone feel like that is a good thing?



Well I'm not sure how many folks are in the same boat with me and suspect that it's less than the number in your boat, but in my case what I already own pretty much guarantees me a trade-down with exchanges.  So there's a possibility that this might be a good thing, with respect to exchanges, if my 3BR weeks get me same-size/quality weeks or the same 2BR we're already "enjoying" with II plus something extra.  I'm still not certain of anything and won't be until (and unless) Marriott actually puts something on the table, but for now I'm more encouraged than not.

Considering that I love love LOVE the flexibility in DVC's point system and what's in that old survey from Marriott matches some of that system's most appealing features - varying nights and resorts, banking and borrowing, priority access to specific resorts - it's no surprise that I could find something good here.  But the cost is definitely a concern, as is the possibility that a home resort advantage could be sacrificed to get those appealing features.


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## DanCali

tombo said:


> Some owners will gladly pay an additional $1250 a year to be guaranteed 4th of july week on the beach in hilton head or new years eve week in Vegas rather than hoping to exchange for those hard to get weeks with their current weeks or newly acquired points.




Well, the assumption is you still need enough points to secure that super prime week so if you start with a Bronze week you may get that Platinum Plus week once every 3 years. So $3750 for a one time use is steep by any measure.

And if you start with a Hawaii or HHI Platinum week week but want to secure 4th of July week every year - $1250 for that privilege is high.

In that case one would be much better off securing a good week, renting it out and then renting the 4th of July week from a different owner. For example, NCV week 26 is Platinum Plus but if I rent out my August reservation and then look on RedWeek for a 4th of July week I may need to add $200 at most to get it. In fact, it's hard to say there is a significant premium for 4th of July rentals at this resort when you look at asking prices. Sure, it's a bit more hassle, but saves you $1000/year...


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## taffy19

billymach4 said:


> Marriottjuana



Good one! :hysterical:


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## timeos2

*It's all trust*



tombo said:


> Some owners will gladly pay an additional $1250 a year to be guaranteed 4th of july week on the beach in hilton head or new years eve week in Vegas rather than hoping to exchange for those hard to get weeks with their current weeks or newly acquired points. Of course they are buying inventory that was available to all in the past and making it private for the next 3 years. Win for marriott since they get an extra $3750 every 3 years, win for the owners who guarantee themselves the same prime weeks for 3 years, but a lose situation resulting in  reduced inventory for the owners (Points or weeks) who refuse to pay the extortion.
> 
> As I said new advantages given to those who pay to convert have to come at the expense of those who don't because the points system doesn't increase the amount of Marriott inventory in existence, only the way that inventory is allocated. Pay Marriott more money for something you already own, or watch your access to inventory shrink. How can anyone feel like that is a good thing?



If that prime July 4th unit week goes to one of the thousands of owners who have a right to reserve it under the current system OR goes to one of the owners who decides to take an ownership amount of points equal to that value and reserve it the unit is just as gone.  The people who change over to points fight with others in points ONLY based on percentage of conversions while the "old" owners fight it out over the rest. No one gained any upper hand they didn't already have. All of this assumes Marriott is fairly administering both systems as they hold all the keys. If they are favoring anyone - resale, retail, multiple owners, points owners - whoever - and it is not spelled out in the original documents that there is such a priority then they, IMO, are violating the trust they are entrusted with by being the appointed management.  In that case they need to bring in an outside and unbiased management for operations as they prove themselves to be unworthy of that job. Anyone feel that is the case? If not then you are saying you trust them to be fair in all dealings. You better hope so as you are subject to the process and paying dearly for that management. 

With our (non-MARRIOTT) points systems in every case the resort management is NOT the operator of the points or weeks system(s). I wouldn't want it any other way as there needs to be checks and balances rather than 100% trust in one company. The temptation can prove to be just too great no matter who it may be.


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## tombo

DanCali said:


> Well, the assumption is you still need enough points to secure that super prime week so if you start with a Bronze week you may get that Platinum Plus week once every 3 years. So $3750 for a one time use is steep by any measure.
> 
> And if you start with a Hawaii or HHI Platinum week week but want to secure 4th of July week every year - $1250 for that privilege is high.
> 
> In that case one would be much better off securing a good week, renting it out and then renting the 4th of July week from a different owner. For example, NCV week 26 is Platinum Plus but if I rent out my August reservation and then look on RedWeek for a 4th of July week I may need to add $200 at most to get it. In fact, it's hard to say there is a significant premium for 4th of July rentals at this resort when you look at asking prices. Sure, it's a bit more hassle, but saves you $1000/year...



At a  resort I own where they went to points they charged you for points conversion from deeded floating week, then in addition to points conversion fees you could pay a one time fee that allowed you access to the week and unit listed on your deed one month earlier than anyone else would be allowed to reserve that week and unit. So most (if not all )of the people with week 26 or 27 on their deeds paid the one time fee locking everyone else out from ever getting 4th of July in the unit on their deed no matter how many points you own. I was getting 4th of july 3 out of 4 years before the change and since the change not once. 

If your MF's are $1000 and for an additional $1250 you can guarantee yourself 4th of july week every year you are in effect paying $2250 annually for your MF's and for your floating/points week to become your private fixed week. Retail that would have cost an additional what $10,000 to $15,000 if it was even offered. So yes many can and will justify that expense for the security of knowing what week they will get every year, and by doing so they will also assure that no other Marriott owner will have access to their prime week whether the other marriott owners purchased retail or resale, and whether they have converted to points or not. That is not fair to anyone IMO.


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## DanCali

tombo said:


> So many can and will justify that expense for the security of knowing what week they will get every year, and by doing so they will also assure that no other marriott owner will have access to their week whether they purchased retail or resale, and whether they have converted to points or not. That is not fair to anyone IMO.



2 comments...

How much does it cost to rent the 4th of July week. I assume not much more than $2250? So why own?

Also, shouldn't there be weeks 26 and 27 available for the owners who didn't convert - in proportion to the unconverted/converted deeds? For example, for a resort like NCV, if 30% of Platinum deeds converted, then should take 30% if each available week in that season to the points system and leave the rest for weeks. They can't just decide they take July and August for points and leave Sep-Dec for weeks - or can they?


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## tombo

DanCali said:


> 2 comments...
> 
> How much does it cost to rent the 4th of July week. I assume not much more than $2250? So why own?
> 
> Also, shouldn't there be weeks 26 and 27 available for the owners who didn't convert - in proportion to the unconverted/converted deeds? For example, for a resort like NCV, if 30% of Platinum deeds converted, then should take 30% if each available week in that season to the points system and leave the rest for weeks. They can't just decide they take July and August for points and leave Sep-Dec for weeks - or can they?




I assume you will be correct that there will not be a large per cent of owners who pay the $3750, but the $3750 sales pitch works best on those with the best weeks. I have week 25 on my deed which is a good week but not worth the extortion. If my deeded week was week 26 or 27 I might have capitulated and paid to have the right to that week each and every year.  So my point is that a larger per cent of the prime weeks will see the advantage and convert to fixed. 

If 10,000 platinum week owners applied for 4th of july every year and there were a total of 1000 units at the resort, 10% of those who applied would get the prime week. now with marriott pitching the advantage of having a fixed prime week each year to all deeded owners with week 26 or 27 (which the salesforce knows before you walk in), then they can get a large part of the owners who have week 26 and week 27 to pay the $3750 and lock in their week. So if  50% of the week 26 and 27 owners pay the $3750 to convert to fixed weeks, that will be 9500 platinum week owners fighting over the remaining 500 units that are now available to reserve changing the odds from 10% to 5%. if marriott cheats and places weeks inventory in point pool, then the odds could get worse. If Marriott offers discounts to people with prime weeks or other incentives to get more prime week owners to convert to points and/or fixed weeks, the odds could get really bad of getting a good week. The amount of units/weeks is fixed and not changing unless they build new resorts, so every time they remove units from your pool your odds of getting what you want each year get slimmer and slimmer.

By the way, we have discussing the scenario based on the assumption that Marriott will proceed as my other resort did based on the week on the deed. How about the more likely scenario where Marriott offers fixed 4th of july weeks for $3750 to the first point owners who will pay it until the number of fixed 4th of july weeks equals 30% or 50% of the total available inventory (whatever arbritrary cutoff point Marriott chooses). This could be offered to ANY and EVERY platinum week owner no matter what is on the deed. NOW marriott has really increased the number of people they can sell the $3750 pkge to, and of course they can't buy the package unless they convert to points, so they have provided another incentive for platinum owners to convert to points. The more owners that convert, the less available inventory for those who refuse to convert. And of course we aren't only talking about reducing the prime inventory like 4th of july, we are talking about reducing available inventory at every level every time an owner converts to points.


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## laurac260

SueDonJ said:


> A free timeshare, plus one of those really plush huge white beach towels with the resort logo and a refillable mug.  Yeah, that's the ticket.



well, apparently no one else wants to play but us...


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## timeos2

*Ignore things that aren't even possible*



tombo said:


> Some owners will gladly pay an additional $1250 a year to be guaranteed 4th of july week on the beach in hilton head or new years eve week in Vegas rather than hoping to exchange for those hard to get weeks with their current weeks or newly acquired points. Of course they are buying inventory that was available to all in the past and making it private for the next 3 years. Win for marriott since they get an extra $3750 every 3 years, win for the owners who guarantee themselves the same prime weeks for 3 years, but a lose situation resulting in  reduced inventory for the owners (Points or weeks) who refuse to pay the extortion.
> 
> As I said new advantages given to those who pay to convert have to come at the expense of those who don't because the points system doesn't increase the amount of Marriott inventory in existence, only the way that inventory is allocated. Pay Marriott more money for something you already own, or watch your access to inventory shrink. How can anyone feel like that is a good thing?



Is there actually any resort that has such a poorly written set of documents that after the fact management has a right to remove weeks from a pool owners paid to have access to & restrict it to a new subset of those owners? I highly doubt it as that type of thing is exactly what disclosure documents are required to prevent. 

When you purchase a deeded property - even if the deed if for float rather than fixed time periods - no one can go back later and change what you are entitled to as an owner. If they could the deed would be meaningless and nothing is further from the truth. This type of wild speculation about something that cannot possibly happen is a needles waste of time & effort. Worry about the things that can happen - there are plenty of those.


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## tombo

timeos2 said:


> Is there actually any resort that has such a poorly written set of documents that after the fact management has a right to remove weeks from a pool owners paid to have access to & restrict it to a new subset of those owners? I highly doubt it as that type of thing is exactly what disclosure documents are required to prevent.
> 
> When you purchase a deeded property - even if the deed if for float rather than fixed time periods - no one can go back later and change what you are entitled to as an owner. If they could the deed would be meaningless and nothing is further from the truth. This type of wild speculation about something that cannot possibly happen is a needles waste of time & effort. Worry about the things that can happen - there are plenty of those.



Every week Platinum week that Marriott can convince an owner to voluntarilly convert to points will fall under the NEW POINTS RULES AND GUIDELINES. marriott can't change what the owners deed originally entitled them to, but once they sign papers giving up those rights to become a points member the original rights are gone. Owners can do whatever they want with their weeks, rent them, use them, deposit them with II, or join marriott's points program and deposit their week there, Non points members will not have access to those weeks any more than non II members would have access to weeks deposited with II. Within the points program Mariott will decide if certain memebrs can buy fixed weeks for a price, how many can be purchased, how much they cost, and mariott will decide how many points each week is assigned and how many points each week costs to stay there. marriott will set the rules and all who convert to points will have to follow the rules, and they will sign a contract obligating them to do so. Marriott has a fleet of lawyers and they will do it legally. morally is another question, but it will be done legally.

This is not a far out conspiracy theory. Timeshare developers at all sorts of resorts are converting deeded owners to points and often actually taking ownership of the deeded week.  Not only can it happen, it is happening at many resorts run by various developers, and if the rumors are true it will happen very soon at Marriott.


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## puckmanfl

good evening...

Let me make sure I get this right.  Hypothetically, I purchase a "primo" platinum MVCI week (ski week, Hawaii, summer in HHI etc) I am told not only am I guaranteed occupancy in season, but it has great trading power and other benefits.  Now I am asked to give it back for points so I can spend 2 weeks in a "doggy" unit. If I want to retain "home resort" priority or gain an advantage "Resort type priority" in trading, I will have to fork up MORE "coin" in addition to the 40K I may have already paid for the unit!!!!

Doug tells me that all I am entitled to is occupancy "in season" and everything else is gravy.  Now I am being asked to pay more for a second serving of "gravy"

yikes...

Perry may be right!!!


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## timeos2

*No change*



tombo said:


> Every week Platinum week that Marriott can convince an owner to voluntarilly convert to points will fall under the NEW POINTS RULES AND GUIDELINES. marriott can't change what the owners deed originally entitled them to, but once they sign papers giving up those rights to become a points member the original rights are gone. Owners can do whatever they want with their weeks, rent them, use them, deposit them with II, or join marriott's points program and deposit their week there, Non points members will not have access to those weeks any more than non II members would have access to weeks deposited with II. Within the points program Mariott will decide if certain memebrs can buy fixed weeks for a price, how many can be purchased, how much they cost, and mariott will decide how many points each week is assigned and how many points each week costs to stay there. marriott will set the rules and all who convert to points will have to follow the rules, and they will sign a contract obligating them to do so. Marriott has a fleet of lawyers and they will do it legally. morally is another question, but it will be done legally.



But understand that they cannot TAKE a fixed week out of the pool for a points owner(s) anymore than they could for a deeded owner. The resort documents won't allow it. They can say that XX% of prime week 26 has been assigned to the points pool based on the percentage number of owners entitled to reserve that use period that chose, voluntarily, to join points. Those same owners could have claimed that time as weeks owners prior to the change. No one loses a claim based on that that and no one moves ahead of anyone else based on that. If one week is pulled out because an owner opts for points that same week could have been claimed by that owner under the old rules. 

Now once the week is assigned to points all bets are off. The rules for the new points system can be set up anyway Marriott wants & if you join you agree to that.  If they choose to state that the limited number of those prime week 26's that are in points carry a premium price tag either in dollars or points they can do so as you agree to the rules as they disclose them. 

Personally any points system that excluded the prime weeks or charged extra for them would be crossed off my list - the beauty of a points system is the ability to get anything if you amass the proper points - but if they implement that way & properly disclose it  then thats the way it will be. But the current owners lost nothing they had and gained nothing. They can still fight to get one of the limited units each year as they always have. Percentage wise the odds are still the same. What they bought they still have.  Marriott can't change it.  Owners can change it if they choose.


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## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> Every week Platinum week that Marriott can convince an owner to voluntarilly convert to points will fall under the NEW POINTS RULES AND GUIDELINES. marriott can't change what the owners deed originally entitled them to, but once they sign papers giving up those rights to become a points member the original rights are gone. Owners can do whatever they want with their weeks, rent them, use them, deposit them with II, or join marriott's points program and deposit their week there, Non points members will not have access to those weeks any more than non II members would have access to weeks deposited with II. Within the points program Mariott will decide if certain memebrs can buy fixed weeks for a price, how many can be purchased, how much they cost, and mariott will decide how many points each week is assigned and how many points each week costs to stay there. marriott will set the rules and all who convert to points will have to follow the rules, and they will sign a contract obligating them to do so. Marriott has a fleet of lawyers and they will do it legally. morally is another question, but it will be done legally.
> 
> This is not a far out conspiracy theory. Timeshare developers at all sorts of resorts are converting deeded owners to points and often actually taking ownership of the deeded week.  Not only can it happen, it is happening at many resorts run by various developers, and if the rumors are true it will happen very soon at Marriott.



I think what John is questioning (apologies, John, if you didn't mean this) and what I certainly question is what you said before, about folks being able to convert their floating deeded weeks to fixed weeks based on the week # that's referenced in the deed.  For one thing, buyers are not given a choice of unit/week # during the purchase process.  (I remember only one TUG poster who said that s/he specifically asked for a certain week # and it was given, along with all sorts of protests that it was completely unnecessary because Marriott couldn't unilaterally change floating weeks to fixed.)

More importantly, though, Marriott's contract language is quite clear in that the Unit and Week # referenced in the deed are there for accounting purposes only (to prevent the developer from overselling a certain unit/week) and have absolutely nothing to do - beyond season and #BR/view - with the specific unit or week that can be reserved for use.  Marriott would be in violation of a number of contract provisions in addition to the stipulated Reservation Procedures if they were to offer a fixed week usage based on the unit/week # contained in the deeds already issued under their floating week system.  I can't think of anything that would be more unfair to deeded floating weeks owners than to force them to accept the particular unit/week referenced in their deeds, or to block them from certain floating weeks by making specific high-demand units and/or weeks within a season more valuable than any others.

Now could they offer fixed weeks for unsold inventory or weeks picked up through internal buy-backs or ROFR on the external resale market?  Absolutely, if the contract language for a specific resort gives them the right to offer fixed weeks.  But not all resort docs contain that language.  As well, at the resorts where both fixed and floating weeks are available and fixed weeks are not designated and sold as "Plus" weeks, a certain number of every floating interval must be available to floating owners.

I would interpret the contract language to mean that for as long as there are floating intervals circulating among the ownership pool, Marriott cannot sell every high-demand interval (such as a July 4th holiday) as a fixed week.  And I'd hire Davidvel to protect against such a thing.


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## timeos2

puckmanfl said:


> good evening...
> 
> Let me make sure I get this right.  Hypothetically, I purchase a "primo" platinum MVCI week (ski week, Hawaii, summer in HHI etc) I am told not only am I guaranteed occupancy in season, but it has great trading power and other benefits.  Now I am asked to give it back for points so I can spend 2 weeks in a "doggy" unit. If I want to retain "home resort" priority or gain an advantage "Resort type priority" in trading, I will have to fork up MORE "coin" in addition to the 40K I may have already paid for the unit!!!!
> 
> Doug tells me that all I am entitled to is occupancy "in season" and everything else is gravy.  Now I am being asked to pay more for a second serving of "gravy"
> 
> yikes...
> 
> Perry may be right!!!



Thats not the way every other decent points based system I've ever looked at or owned worked. If it did it would seem to hold little value to owners to buy in and, after all, isn't getting buy in what they would want? I'll bet it is set up to create opportunities not kill off what you already have. If the latter than why would anyone think owners would pay to join?


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## AwayWeGo

*Nothing That The Timeshare Companies Sell At Full Freight Is Worth The Money.*




puckmanfl said:


> I will have to fork up MORE "coin" in addition to the 40K I may have already paid for the unit!


I would have to be out of my helmet to pay $40*,*000 for a timeshare, any timeshare anywhere, Marriott or Hyatt or exotic high-end or anything. 

Nothing that the timeshare companies sell at full freight is worth the money, period. 

That goes for Marriott just the same as for all the other timeshare companies out there. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## tombo

timeos2 said:


> Now once the week is assigned to points all bets are off. The rules for the new points system can be set up anyway Marriott wants & if you join you agree to that.  If they choose to state that the limited number of those prime week 26's that are in points carry a premium price tag either in dollars or points they can do so as you agree to the rules as they disclose them.
> .



This is exactly what I was saying. Once the owner takes his week and voluntarilly assigns it to points, Marriott can do whatever they want with his week. The discussion came from marriott's survey discussing possible options for their points program from a few years ago.

The statement below is copied from the marriott survey:

"Home Resort Guarantee - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program an option may be offered to retain the home resort priority you currently have with your week. A new option may be offered in addition to, or in place of your home resort priority that would guarantee a fixed week at the resort where you currently own for a period of 3 years. This option would be limited to a specific percentage of villas for each week of the year."

Marriott will sell a certain percentage of villas each week for the year guaranteeing a points owner a guaranteed fixed week for 3 years for a set price! After reading this, how else could you interpret this option?


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## David10225

I've been an avid reader of this thread...sometimes multiple times a day...it's better then anything on TV right now!

Here is my thinking on the matter.  I own a floating platinum week at Barony Beach.  If Marriott were to offer to buy any platinum week (and what it offers is really not pertinent to my thinking), it would become the legal owner with multiple weeks of ownership.  For sake of discussion, Marriott now owns 50% of the platinum weeks.  (it must have been one sweet deal).   As a multiple week owner, Marriott has the right to reserve a week 13 months ahead until me who can only reserve 12 months ahead.  Marriott would have to complete with all of the other multi week owners, but in reality..are there really that many....  And to top it off, what if Marriott decided to reward 3 or more week owners (including itself) with a 14 month reservation period.  After all, from what I understand sometime in the past it went from 12 to 13...why not do it again?  It certainly seems like they would have an advantage over little old 1 week owner me...

Then with all of its newly owned multiple week ownerships...Marriott could sell me points in a club that allowed me to reserve one of these weeks or any other week in the system.  All for the price that covers their acquisition costs + a tidy profit.  Of course the point owner would agree to pay the special maintenance fee per point....


----------



## Fredm

DanCali said:


> 2 comments...
> 
> for a resort like NCV, if 30% of Platinum deeds converted, then should take 30% if each available week in that season to the points system and leave the rest for weeks. They can't just decide they take July and August for points and leave Sep-Dec for weeks - or can they?



This is going to be interesting.

California timeshare law anticipated the specific question you pose.
Floating use (deeded) timeshare reservation rights provide a minimum 60 day priority for owners of a resort before 'multi-site'   owners can access the inventory.

For your reading pleasure,The California Timeshare Manual can be accessed here.

The verbiage begins on page 30, under 
_Mandatory Reservation Systems – “Specific Time-Share Interest” Multi-Site Time-Share Plans
This type of time-share plan is affiliated by means of a contract or membership agreement through a mandatory reservation system with other time-share projects or resorts and time-share purchasers of interests in the specific component site receive, on a priority basis, the use or occupancy of accommodations at that site and it is subject to all the regulatory requirements of a single site time-share plan._..............

The document is rather long. It goes on to say that conversions may be made. However, the intervals converted must be specific. So, a converted deeded interest can be either/or the entire subdivision (resort), building, unit, or week.  BUT, it cannot be arbitrary. For example if an owner is deeded week 30, then week 30 can be converted. That week 30 cannot be used to compete with reservation rights of the deeded week owners during the 60 day priority reservation period, once made part of a 'multi-site" program.
At least that is how I understand it.

Every State has its own regulations. Most address the issue of inventory segregation for different owner classes.  I find it hard to imagine Marriott being able to simply take the inventory it wants just because they have the 'points" needed to do so.

The law (almost everywhere) is on the side of the existing deeded timeshare interest and its reservation rights.

For this new system to work well Marriott will need massive conversions, and quickly.  They won't get them at $3750, or anything remotely close to it.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> This is exactly what I was saying. Once the owner takes his week and voluntarilly assigns it to points, Marriott can do whatever they want with his week. The discussion came from marriott's survey discussing possible options for their points program from a few years ago.
> 
> The statement below is copied from the marriott survey:
> 
> "Home Resort Guarantee - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program an option may be offered to retain the home resort priority you currently have with your week. A new option may be offered in addition to, or in place of your home resort priority that would guarantee a fixed week at the resort where you currently own for a period of 3 years. This option would be limited to a specific percentage of villas for each week of the year."
> 
> Marriott will sell a certain percentage of villas each week for the year guaranteeing a points owner a guaranteed fixed week for 3 years for a set price! After reading this, how else could you interpret this option?



But that isn't the same as what you said before, that every owner could convert their floating week to the fixed week referenced in their deed, which would effectively block out floating week owners from a certain usage stipulated in their contracts.  Sure, a combination of fixed/floating weeks is possible at some resorts, but it would have to be limited to a certain percentage per week as stated in the survey and supported by the contracts, and every owner of a floating season would have to be offered the opportunity for any fixed week within that season (probably on a first-come-first-served basis.)  I would guess that the unit/week # referenced in the deeds that have already been issued for floating week usage will have nothing to do with fixed-week conversions beyond the supporting basis for the percentage of fixed weeks available relative to the total number sold.


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening...

John:

Does any other point system charge a "premium" for special membership giving priority booking???
Just curious as I really have no clue!!!


----------



## dougp26364

tombo said:


> This is exactly what I was saying. Once the owner takes his week and voluntarilly assigns it to points, Marriott can do whatever they want with his week. The discussion came from marriott's survey discussing possible options for their points program from a few years ago.
> 
> The statement below is copied from the marriott survey:
> 
> "Home Resort Guarantee - As part of the Vacation Points Exchange Program an option may be offered to retain the home resort priority you currently have with your week. A new option may be offered in addition to, or in place of your home resort priority that would guarantee a fixed week at the resort where you currently own for a period of 3 years. This option would be limited to a specific percentage of villas for each week of the year."
> 
> Marriott will sell a certain percentage of villas each week for the year guaranteeing a points owner a guaranteed fixed week for 3 years for a set price! After reading this, how else could you interpret this option?



I see what you're saying. They'll offer members in the points based system the option to BUY specific weeks ahead of all other points based members.

Remember, this was only an option or consideration they were tossing out there to see what interest owners would have in the proposal. It will be interesting to see if the responce they recieved was strong enough that Marriott will do this. If it is part of the program, then they'll hamstring their own internal exchange program by limiting what the majority could/can get and, in turn they'll lose customers who might have joined. 

I know that if they put this option in I'll have to look at the weeks that would be included. Chances are it won't affect me since we tend to stay away from those high priority weeks as we hate crowds. On the other hand, it's not unusual for us to be in Vegas over race week and, it that's one of their "prime" weeks, then I'm afraid we'd have to pass on their new system. 

Personally I don't believe Marriott will go forward with that idea. They tossed it out there to see how much interest owners would have in it if offered. Do you really think there was a lot of interest in paying $3,750 to guarentee access to a prime week for three years? IMHO that option likely fell flat when they tallied the survey results.


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> good evening...
> 
> John:
> 
> Does any other point system charge a "premium" for special membership giving priority booking???
> Just curious as I really have no clue!!!



I'm not John but I've never heard of it. I suspect I haven't heard of it for good reason. It's a bad idea.


----------



## scrapngen

SueDonJ said:


> Good post all around, gen, but the "Pointer/setter weeks" made me :rofl:


 

Glad to brighten your day! By the way, I appreciate your posts as well


----------



## SueDonJ

David10225 said:


> I've been an avid reader of this thread...sometimes multiple times a day...it's better then anything on TV right now!
> 
> Here is my thinking on the matter.  I own a floating platinum week at Barony Beach.  If Marriott were to offer to buy any platinum week (and what it offers is really not pertinent to my thinking), it would become the legal owner with multiple weeks of ownership.  For sake of discussion, Marriott now owns 50% of the platinum weeks.  (it must have been one sweet deal).   *As a multiple week owner, Marriott has the right to reserve a week 13 months ahead until me who can only reserve 12 months ahead.*  Marriott would have to complete with all of the other multi week owners, but in reality..are there really that many....  And to top it off, what if Marriott decided to reward 3 or more week owners (including itself) with a 14 month reservation period.  After all, from what I understand sometime in the past it went from 12 to 13...why not do it again?  It certainly seems like they would have an advantage over little old 1 week owner me...
> 
> Then with all of its newly owned multiple week ownerships...Marriott could sell me points in a club that allowed me to reserve one of these weeks or any other week in the system.  All for the price that covers their acquisition costs + a tidy profit.  Of course the point owner would agree to pay the special maintenance fee per point....



Welcome to the party!  The more the merrier, and it's helpful to get all sorts of different thoughts on what's happening.

About what's bolded above - the Barony docs do state, "The Developer may make reservation requests for a Time Sharing Interest which it owns on the same basis as all other Owners."  But SurfWatch's docs specifically exclude Marriott from the 13-mo rule: "Owners, excluding Declarant, who own more than one ..."

I wonder if Marriott adopted a uniform reservation procedure for itself the same way that it implements one for owners system-wide across all resorts (despite different language in the different resort docs) and if so, do they utilize the 13-mo rule for themselves or not?


----------



## timeos2

*They may give it away but not charge*



puckmanfl said:


> good evening...
> 
> John:
> 
> Does any other point system charge a "premium" for special membership giving priority booking???
> Just curious as I really have no clue!!!



While I cannot say none do there are none I've dealt with as an owner or potential buyer that charge for that as a guaranteed product.  Some do have a "perk", usually tied to how many total points you own with them, that may offer a member a month or two extra at non-home resorts. Often called "Elite" or "VIP", but they do not charge for that (if they did it would have to be a written & thus guaranteed process/product and they don't want / can't do that). And in no case does the additional time offered for reservations exceed - or in most cases even equal - what an owner at the resort is entitled to. The local resort documents trump any type of exchange process. 

In other words they do not offer to sell at any price additional or guaranteed booking time to members. Not that I've ever come across.


----------



## DanCali

tombo said:


> If 10,000 platinum week owners applied for 4th of july every year and there were a total of 1000 units at the resort, 10% of those who applied would get the prime week. now with marriott pitching the advantage of having a fixed prime week each year to all deeded owners with week 26 or 27 (which the salesforce knows before you walk in), then they can get a large part of the owners who have week 26 and week 27 to pay the $3750 and lock in their week. So if  50% of the week 26 and 27 owners pay the $3750 to convert to fixed weeks, that will be 9500 platinum week owners fighting over the remaining 500 units that are now available to reserve changing the odds from 10% to 5%. if marriott cheats and places weeks inventory in point pool, then the odds could get worse. If Marriott offers discounts to people with prime weeks or other incentives to get more prime week owners to convert to points and/or fixed weeks, the odds could get really bad of getting a good week. The amount of units/weeks is fixed and not changing unless they build new resorts, so every time they remove units from your pool your odds of getting what you want each year get slimmer and slimmer.



I don't think it would work that way with Marriott as the week on the deed is irrelevant. At NCV I own a Platinum week that gives me access to any Platinum week. I do not have access to PP weeks 26 and 52 or to Gold weeks. 

My concern was if 30% of Platinum deeds converted to points, then Marriott should take 30% if each available week in that season to the points system and leave the rest of the inventory for weeks. If points owners get more than 30% of July and August reservations (or of any week in that season for that matter) that seems wrong. Similarly, if no Platinum Plus week 26 convert to points, points owners will not have access to those weeks.


----------



## DanCali

Fredm said:


> The document is rather long. It goes on to say that conversions may be made. However, the intervals converted must be specific. So, a converted deeded interest can be either/or the entire subdivision (resort), building, unit, or week.  BUT, it cannot be arbitrary. For example if an owner is deeded week 30, then week 30 can be converted. That week 30 cannot be used to compete with reservation rights of the deeded week owners during the 60 day priority reservation period, once made part of a 'multi-site" program.
> At least that is how I understand it.
> 
> Every State has its own regulations. Most address the issue of inventory segregation for different owner classes.  I find it hard to imagine Marriott being able to simply take the inventory it wants just because they have the 'points" needed to do so.
> 
> The law (almost everywhere) is on the side of the existing deeded timeshare interest and its reservation rights.
> 
> For this new system to work well Marriott will need massive conversions, and quickly.  They won't get them at $3750, or anything remotely close to it.



Fred - thanks for this info. I'll need to read it more carefully when I get a chance. I'm trying to follow the logic here - suppose for simplicity that only 1 rogue NCV owner converts to points and he is deeded week 30. So (i) points owners will have access to only 7 days at NCV (ii) the deeded week matters - points owners can only book week 30 and (iii) they can only book it at 10 months out?

Somewhere along the way I must have misunderstood something... because you could get a situation where weeks owners might book week 30 completely at 10-12 months out, so what do points owners get then?


----------



## PerryM

*Dumber is better...*

Glad to see things just cook along without me stirring the pot...

I'll leave you with this:

[Political comments deleted - DeniseM Moderator]

Likewise, Marriott is looking for dumb owners who don't ask questions to convert - they should have a field day.

Smart timeshare folks who haunt this website will each look at what's offered and make an informed decision and you won't hear any criticism from me on your final decision either way - but that's 1% of the Marriott owners.

It's the other 99% that just scare the hell out of me...


----------



## dougp26364

Fredm said:


> This is going to be interesting.
> 
> California timeshare law anticipated the specific question you pose.
> Floating use (deeded) timeshare reservation rights provide a minimum 60 day priority for owners of a resort before 'multi-site'   owners can access the inventory.
> 
> For your reading pleasure,The California Timeshare Manual can be accessed here.
> 
> The verbiage begins on page 30, under
> _Mandatory Reservation Systems – “Specific Time-Share Interest” Multi-Site Time-Share Plans
> This type of time-share plan is affiliated by means of a contract or membership agreement through a mandatory reservation system with other time-share projects or resorts and time-share purchasers of interests in the specific component site receive, on a priority basis, the use or occupancy of accommodations at that site and it is subject to all the regulatory requirements of a single site time-share plan._..............
> 
> The document is rather long. It goes on to say that conversions may be made. However, the intervals converted must be specific. So, a converted deeded interest can be either/or the entire subdivision (resort), building, unit, or week.  BUT, it cannot be arbitrary. For example if an owner is deeded week 30, then week 30 can be converted. That week 30 cannot be used to compete with reservation rights of the deeded week owners during the 60 day priority reservation period, once made part of a 'multi-site" program.
> At least that is how I understand it.
> 
> Every State has its own regulations. Most address the issue of inventory segregation for different owner classes.  I find it hard to imagine Marriott being able to simply take the inventory it wants just because they have the 'points" needed to do so.
> 
> The law (almost everywhere) is on the side of the existing deeded timeshare interest and its reservation rights.
> 
> For this new system to work well Marriott will need massive conversions, and quickly.  They won't get them at $3750, or anything remotely close to it.



The thing is, I know DRI has trust based ownership in California and operates just fine. Trust owners with DRI don't hold an interest in any one resort but a group of resorts. Those resort do offer a home resort advantage with the idea that members in the trust can book at 13 months rather than 12 months for owners of deeded weeks in the points system. Points owners are tied to a specific resort and have a 2 month home resort booking advantage over all other members of the points based reservation system. 

It appears that trust based ownership is considered a "group" under the CA law and there is no real home resort advantage.


----------



## Fredm

dougp26364 said:


> The thing is, I know DRI has trust based ownership in California and operates just fine. Trust owners with DRI don't hold an interest in any one resort but a group of resorts. Those resort do offer a home resort advantage with the idea that members in the trust can book at 13 months rather than 12 months for owners of deeded weeks in the points system. Points owners are tied to a specific resort and have a 2 month home resort booking advantage over all other members of the points based reservation system.
> 
> It appears that trust based ownership is considered a "group" under the CA law and there is no real home resort advantage.



Well, that is consistent with the 60 days home resort priority.


----------



## Fredm

DanCali said:


> Fred - thanks for this info. I'll need to read it more carefully when I get a chance. I'm trying to follow the logic here - suppose for simplicity that only 1 rogue NCV owner converts to points and he is deeded week 30. So (i) points owners will have access to only 7 days at NCV (ii) the deeded week matters - points owners can only book week 30 and (iii) they can only book it at 10 months out?
> 
> Somewhere along the way I must have misunderstood something... because you could get a situation where weeks owners might book week 30 completely at 10-12 months out, so what do points owners get then?



Home resort owners must have at least a 60 day booking advantage over anyone else.
The week 30 example was mine.   Whatever week, Marriott cannot use it in a floating system to extract inventory before the 60 day reservation preference period has passed. 
They could use it to reserve week 30 at 12 months, if it was converted. Otherwise, no dice. Perhaps a poor example of what I was trying to say.
I was trying to explain that Marriott could not just take the prime weeks whenever they wanted. In this situation, the home resort owners will always have a 60 day reservation advantage over those in the points system.


----------



## RandR

timeos2 said:


> With our (non-MARRIOTT) points systems in every case the resort management is NOT the operator of the points or weeks system(s). I wouldn't want it any other way as there needs to be checks and balances rather than 100% trust in one company. The temptation can prove to be just too great no matter who it may be.



John this is a great point but it looks like it is exactly what Marriott is going to be doing.  Someone earlier in the thread talked about all the inventory that people convert into the points system and who then gets their proxy.  If Marriott gets it and "owns" enough units/points, can't they then essentially take over the HOA for the property?


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Throwing Out The Timeshare Company As Resort Manager.*




RandR said:


> If Marriott gets it and "owns" enough units/points, can't they then essentially take over the HOA for the property?


In some states (e.g., Florida), once the timeshare HOA is taken over by an independent, owner-controlled BOD, the timeshare cannot go back under timeshare company control -- i.e., when the owners are _in_ & the timeshare company is _out,_ then that's it.  Period.  Case closed. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> But that isn't the same as what you said before, that every owner could convert their floating week to the fixed week referenced in their deed, which would effectively block out floating week owners from a certain usage stipulated in their contracts.  .



I said this regarding what Escapes Resort Systems did at my resort, and referenced it as a thing that Marriott could do too depending on if and how they decide to offer fixed weeks to people who join their points program. 

I own a floating 2 bed room Escapes week which floats the prime season any week from 18 until I think week 34 oceanfront at orange Beach. I have a  home resort reservation window of 30 days before anyone who owns at another Escapes resort can try to reserve at this resort. No owners of escapes weeks at other resorts ever get a summer week at my resort because they are all reserved before they get the opportunity. 

They got the brilliant idea to start selling points to existing owners to make money. As I said earlier they have to have advantages that come with points memberships to get you to pay $5000 more for what you already own. Once an Escapes week is converted to floating points you no longer can trade for that week as a weeks owner, so they threaten that eventually as most owners convert you will have limited inventory to trade for. They also built a new resort up the road and only points owners can stay there (something I am sure Marriott will do if they build new resorts). 

Those are 2 points perks that owners don't get, but the main perk is the one I was discussing earlier. If you convert to points and pay more $ you get to reserve the week and unit number on your deed 30 days before any points or weeks owners have the opportunity to do so. Yes, this is available to every weeks owner who converts to points and pays $5000. So yes at this resort most if not all (according to the salesperson) owners of weeks 26 and week 27 converted to points forever locking the rest of us out from ever reserving their weeks. I don't know for sure how many did actually convert, but I do know that I haven't been able to reserve a 4th of July week in the 3 years since they started this program. I was describing a situation that Marriott could follow suit on with their 3 year fixed week option using the example of what they did at my resort, not saying that this is what Marriott would actually do.


----------



## bobcat

dougp26364 said:


> The thing is, I know DRI has trust based ownership in California and operates just fine. Trust owners with DRI don't hold an interest in any one resort but a group of resorts. Those resort do offer a home resort advantage with the idea that members in the trust can book at 13 months rather than 12 months for owners of deeded weeks in the points system. Points owners are tied to a specific resort and have a 2 month home resort booking advantage over all other members of the points based reservation system.
> 
> It appears that trust based ownership is considered a "group" under the CA law and there is no real home resort advantage.



You forgot to mention that once you were in the UDI, the club dues and M F's went up big time.


----------



## Dean

DanCali said:


> A car salesperson is a saint compared to the blatant lies some timeshare salespeople spew. How many times in the last few months have we heard here on TUG about  (mostly the Ko'Olina) salespeople telling prospective buyers that resale units have a disadvantage booking home resort? How many people who didn't find TUG or were bold enough to ask heard that nonesense and fell for it?
> 
> I also don't recall a car salesperson making me sign that everything I heard orally doesn't count or that if I sell the car the A/C will not function (analogy to no hotel points when you sell it - and implying indirectly it's worth much less on the resale market). Heck, I even bought a new car once, drove it for 400 miles and sold it on the resale market for a profit over the dealer MSRP... good luck pulling that one off with a retail timeshare.
> 
> If all timeshare presentations were recorded and could be entered as evidence in a dispute - I'd be on your side on this one. Unfortunately, developer timeshares sales are still often based on deceipt of the buyers...


In general I might agree with you on the pecking order of timeshare sales staff but I would put those at Marriott far above that level but not quite to the level of those at DVC who I would put at the top.  As I believe you admit, they are good at covering themselves.  Therefore to go against those legal protections, one is going to need proof in a dispute and my word against theirs isn't going to cut it.



PerryM said:


> Absolutely correct!
> 
> You know what's going to be a kick in the head- all those Marriott owners too stupid to get a lawyer to review their original sales documents are going to do the same damn thing all over again as they sign away their weeks into the new system.
> 
> So how do you feel sorry for 95% of the folks being that stupid?
> 
> I'm not trying to be holier than thou since I'm in that 95% camp but honestly folks what's wrong with us?


Perry, I doubt most of us have had a lawyer review such info for timeshares and frankly, I doubt most lawyers would know enough about timeshares to render a helpful opinion.  I think most of us could do MUCH better than a lawyer overall in interpreting the info.  But one needs to actually read the info, it's hard to complaint about things later that were clearly listed there if you don't.



puckmanfl said:


> good evening...
> 
> Let me make sure I get this right.  Hypothetically, I purchase a "primo" platinum MVCI week (ski week, Hawaii, summer in HHI etc) I am told not only am I guaranteed occupancy in season, but it has great trading power and other benefits.  Now I am asked to give it back for points so I can spend 2 weeks in a "doggy" unit. If I want to retain "home resort" priority or gain an advantage "Resort type priority" in trading, I will have to fork up MORE "coin" in addition to the 40K I may have already paid for the unit!!!!
> 
> Doug tells me that all I am entitled to is occupancy "in season" and everything else is gravy.  Now I am being asked to pay more for a second serving of "gravy"
> 
> yikes...
> 
> Perry may be right!!!


Perry's predictions are even worse than that IMO.  We don't know the specifics of any new system and don't know if these issues would be as  you suggest.  They may indeed be but the worst case scenario is you don't convert.  I realize they have ways to pressure you  that might "make you an offer you can't refuse" but no one can take away your right to reserve the week tied to your deed as a min and realistically, an even attempt to reserve the week you want within your system.  IF they go with a trust based system with NO home resort priority though, your post is likely somewhat accurate.  Personally I don't think they can take that approach and get enough high demand weeks to participate but we will see.  



puckmanfl said:


> good evening...
> 
> John:
> 
> Does any other point system charge a "premium" for special membership giving priority booking???
> Just curious as I really have no clue!!!


Bluegreen and Wyndham do in a sense.  Both have a VIP membership system that currently requires a "qualified" purchase from the company.  BG has been evolving over the years but have just further stipulated that any new purchases to qualify for VIP have to occur at a given price level per point.  This is needed for BG because they have their own internal resale company rather than just selling them again retail only.  Others can speak far better than I about Wyndhams setup.  I can't think of any other VIP situations off hand but there likely are others.  With BG they have 5 levels Platinum, Gold, Silver, Bronze and nothing.  If you qualify you get an increasing level of benefits that include going on a wait list for reservations 1 month earlier per level.  At Platinum you get 3 free off season weeks you can exchange, free cancelations till 10 days out, wait list at 15 months out (reservations occur at 11 months) and free Travelers plus which gives you access to RCI hot weeks and the connection with Shell's system among other things.  They essentially force you to buy from the developer to get these benefits and going forward, any non qualified points you get, may not be able to be converted over even with a retail purchase.  Marriott also charged to go to EY reward points at several resorts, Perry himself paid such a fee for like 5 resorts then later sold them thus sacrificing that option.


----------



## lovearuba

*The perfect solution*



AwayWeGo said:


> In some states (e.g., Florida), once the timeshare HOA is taken over by an independent, owner-controlled BOD, the timeshare cannot go back under timeshare company control -- i.e., when the owners are _in_ & the timeshare company is _out,_ then that's it.  Period.  Case closed.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Imagine a world where the owners actually have say over what is done with their money and week.  I would love to see this happen but as long as there is still some value and profit in the system, Marriott will squeeze it and the owners dry.


----------



## timeos2

*Trust ownership tends to bring extra costs and less control on fees*



bobcat said:


> You forgot to mention that once you were in the UDI, the club dues and M F's went up big time.



Actually UDI ownership doesn't have to impact M F's vs a straight deeded week but being in the Trust, with it's own fees and overhead, does tend add cost. Sometimes considerable costs vs straight resort ownership with UDI or deeded weeks.  Plus your vote that can carry weight in a single resort Association vs having virtually no impact in the Trust operation.  Too many negatives for me. I prefer a deeded week that I can put into a points system IF I desire.  Best of both worlds that way. I keep control (vote), keep costs low (pay for my resort that I can vote at only) plus the minimal expense of an "exchange company"(Points system) and can resell what I own (meaning I can get a great resale deal coming in too!).  Deeded rights mean I have the protection of real estate law backing my ownership and I cannot lose my ownership for a "rules violation" or a simple missed payment as can be done under Trust "memberships" that are RTU.  

Too many minuses in the Trust model for me.


----------



## timeos2

*No one gets value out like the real owners*



lovearuba said:


> Imagine a world where the owners actually have say over what is done with their money and week.  I would love to see this happen but as long as there is still some value and profit in the system, Marriott will squeeze it and the owners dry.



Thats why we prefer an owner controlled, independently managed resort vs a "name brand". Costs tend to lower, accountability higher and, if the owners want it, quality that meets or beats the "names".  We call the shots and we get answers when we want them. 

I love the Wyndham system but, like Marriott, they insist on total control. It has led to higher than needed fees, lower quality resorts and a resale price of basically zero. Not what they should be for an outstanding collection of great locations & an easy to use system.  It is poor management focused on sales that, like almost every other developer controlled resort/system, fails to meet expectations or delver the value it should for the dollars spent.


----------



## bobcat

timeos2 said:


> Actually UDI ownership doesn't have to impact M F's vs a straight deeded week but being in the Trust, with it's own fees and overhead, does tend add cost. Sometimes considerable costs vs straight resort ownership with UDI or deeded weeks.  Plus your vote that can carry weight in a single resort Association vs having virtually no impact in the Trust operation.  Too many negatives for me. I prefer a deeded week that I can put into a points system IF I desire.  Best of both worlds that way. I keep control (vote), keep costs low (pay for my resort that I can vote at only) plus the minimal expense of an "exchange company"(Points system) and can resell what I own (meaning I can get a great resale deal coming in too!).  Deeded rights mean I have the protection of real estate law backing my ownership and I cannot lose my ownership for a "rules violation" or a simple missed payment as can be done under Trust "memberships" that are RTU.
> 
> Too many minuses in the Trust model for me.



This is a great post. Well said..


----------



## laurac260

does anyone know if any of the past 2000 posts are anything more than pure speculation?  Seriously??


----------



## EducatedConsumer

timeos2 said:


> Actually UDI ownership doesn't have to impact M F's vs a straight deeded week but being in the Trust, with it's own fees and overhead, does tend add cost. Sometimes considerable costs vs straight resort ownership with UDI or deeded weeks.  Plus your vote that can carry weight in a single resort Association vs having virtually no impact in the Trust operation.  Too many negatives for me. I prefer a deeded week that I can put into a points system IF I desire.  Best of both worlds that way. I keep control (vote), keep costs low (pay for my resort that I can vote at only) plus the minimal expense of an "exchange company"(Points system) and can resell what I own (meaning I can get a great resale deal coming in too!).  Deeded rights mean I have the protection of real estate law backing my ownership and I cannot lose my ownership for a "rules violation" or a simple missed payment as can be done under Trust "memberships" that are RTU.
> 
> Too many minuses in the Trust model for me.



The speculation and conjecture expressed in this thread is nothing short of amazing. I'd love to see Dr. Phil do an analysis of these writings.

Amongst the speculation and conjecture is an assumption by some that whatever new form of ownership that Marriott releases, will be a Right to Use arrangement. What makes those who speculate this think that the new form of ownership will not be deeded, and subject to the real estate laws in the state that Marriott selects to establish their governance? Just down the street from Marriott's offices is the Disney Vacation Club, which offers a points based Vacation Club product that is secured by a deed. We are DVC members and have a deed to attest to our "ownership."


----------



## billymach4

Lots of speculation here. This is Marriott's free Focus Group on Creating an internal points system. 

We will find out by the end of June for sure. The line in the sand has been drawn.


----------



## timeos2

*Some things just can't be done*



EducatedConsumer said:


> The speculation and conjecture expressed in this thread is nothing short of amazing. I'd love to see Dr. Phil do an analysis of these writings.
> 
> Amongst the speculation and conjecture is an assumption by some that whatever new form of ownership that Marriott releases, will be a Right to Use arrangement. What makes those who speculate this think that the new form of ownership will not be deeded, and subject to the real estate laws in the state that Marriott selects to establish their governance? Just down the street from Marriott's offices is the Disney Vacation Club, which offers a points based Vacation Club product that is secured by a deed. We are DVC members and have a deed to attest to our "ownership."



Nothing to prevent NEW sales, which would have to be at new resorts, from being pure points and/or RTU vs a true deed (Disney "deeds" record your agreement to pay for 4x years of RTU but grant you no actual ownership of any property).  But speculating that existing resorts could suddenly be turned into selective (and thus restrictive) fixed use simply because Marriott decides to offer a points based exchange system is beyond speculation of what could happen and steps into the impossible. Deeded ownerships cannot be changed. It is that clear and simple. If a resort is float use now it will still be float use after any announcement that Marriott makes regarding an internal exchange system. That is what a deeded ownership guarantees you and why we prefer them over other possible ownership models. 

Speculate all you desire abut how/what a Marriott Points system may offer but locking existing resorts float times into fixed is not a possibility. Forcing owners to join a system is not possible.  Take them off the table.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

I occasionally wonder about some participants in a community such as this one. I'm intrigued by people who amass 1000's of posts on a bulletin board like this; is their engagement recreation, I wonder, or signs of some other unique behavioral qualities?

I am struck by all of this speculation in the hundred of posts on this subject, and by the negativity that accompanies some of the speculation. I guess the likelihood of a publicly traded company telling those who exude significant ill will towards the company to take their business elsewhere is unlikely. That's too bad. 

The beauty of communities such as this one is that all opinions are welcome. I'm just expressing some thoughts that crossed my mind.


----------



## SueDonJ

Look out, EC.  You're at a couple hundred posts and then BAM! you wake up one day and you've got thousands.  All it takes is a little OCD combined with intriguing topics ...

I like the welcoming atmosphere here on TUG, but I LOVE that there is so much opportunity to learn here.  Mix in a little humor every once in a while to the serious threads, and the gigantic dose of humanity over in the Lounge threads, and posting on TUG becomes second nature.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> Yep, instant confirmation of exchanges is an enticement all by itself.  Add in that my 3BR points will get me a 3BR more than .00001% of the time, or will get me an extra vacation without being at the mercy of II's finicky AC offers, and I'm _almost_ sold.



That's assuming, or course, that when Marriott makes its value calculations your 3BR is awarded enough points to trade into all or at least most of of the other 3 BR's.

Will you feel the same way if you only have enough points to trade into a 2BR at the next new resort?

Don't get me wrong, Sue, I'm just pointing out the flip side to this- IF Marriott chooses a path similar to the AP program than that could be a very real possibility.


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> That's assuming, or course, that when Marriott makes its value calculations your 3BR is awarded enough points to trade into all or at least most of of the other 3 BR's.
> 
> Will you feel the same way if you only have enough points to trade into a 2BR at the next new resort?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Sue, I'm just pointing out the flip side to this- IF Marriott chooses a path similar to the AP program than that could be a very real possibility.



Right, I'm assuming that a 3BR at my certain highly-valued resort will be allotted more points in any new system than a 2BR at the same or a similar resort, based on the fact that Marriott charges a higher purchase price for the extra bedroom.  I'd be very surprised if all units - efficiencies, 1BR, 2BR, 3BR - within a same resort will be allotted the same number of points, but if it happens that would certainly change my thinking.

And we've been all up, down and around what you call "points inflation" for the newer resorts as they're brought on line, m.  I know you find it difficult to believe and I don't know how many different ways it can be said so that you do believe it, but I do expect and will be okay with the newer resorts having higher point costs than the established resorts if the amenities of the newer resorts are that much superior to the established.  Within II now there is definite disparity in the exchange value of the existing resorts, as evidenced by the many "will my XYZ resort pull an ABC resort?" questions here on TUG.  Why wouldn't we expect a similar disparity in any other exchange system?  The difference will be that in Marriott's system we'll know up front how much value we own, as opposed to II's unpublished guessing game.


----------



## Asia2000

SueDonJ said:


> Right, I'm assuming that a 3BR at my certain highly-valued resort will be allotted more points in any new system than a 2BR at the same or a similar resort, based on the fact that Marriott charges a higher purchase price for the extra bedroom.  I'd be very surprised if all units - efficiencies, 1BR, 2BR, 3BR - within a same resort will be allotted the same number of points, but if it happens that would certainly change my thinking.
> 
> And we've been all up, down and around what you call "points inflation" for the newer resorts as they're brought on line, m.  I know you find it difficult to believe and I don't know how many different ways it can be said so that you do believe it, but I do expect and will be okay with the newer resorts having higher point costs than the established resorts if the amenities of the newer resorts are that much superior to the established.  Within II now there is definite disparity in the exchange value of the existing resorts, as evidenced by the many "will my XYZ resort pull an ABC resort?" questions here on TUG.  Why wouldn't we expect a similar disparity in any other exchange system?  The difference will be that in Marriott's system we'll know up front how much value we own, as opposed to II's unpublished guessing game.



I think your 3 bedroom point value will be the equivalent to a 2 bedroom + a studio value.  For example, a studio is worth 10,000.  A one bedroom 20,000.  A two bedroom 30,000 (The one bedroom + a studio would equal 30,000 in a lock-off situation).  A three bedroom 40,000.  This is assuming all units fall in the same season (ie. Platinum or Gold, etc.).

The extra week or bonus opportunity (upgrading or turning one week into two or turning two weeks into three) would occur through 10,000 point flexchanges that would be booked within 59 days or less.  From what I understand, you can currently upgrade today within II, possibly up to one year in advance by depositing your week/weeks/lock-offs, etc.  This is whole lot better than 59 days out.


----------



## dougp26364

bobcat said:


> You forgot to mention that once you were in the UDI, the club dues and M F's went up big time.




Which is one reason I did not join one of DRI's trusts. The MF's for my weeks was less expensive than the trust MF's. I'm pretty certain I've mentioned that somewhere in this thread as to one reason why I'm not a huge trust based ownership fan. Owners at the more expensive resorts may see their MF's go down. Owners at resorts with lower MF's would most likely see their MF's go up. In a trust, the MF's are based on the total MF's paid by the trust to the HOA's, then divided by the number of points outstanding in the trust. In essence all owners are paying an average MF of all the resort weeks in the trust. Note that I did not say of all the resorts in the trust but all the resort weeks in the trust. If the trust is top heavy with the highest MF's and has very few of the lower MF weeks, then the MF's will be skewed towards the higher end. 

My biggest problem with trust based ownership is the loss of voting rights. I'm not comfortable giving the trust manager the right to vote for me. I'm really hoping that Marriott will simply come out with a points overlay internal exchange system where owners retain their deeded week. We have assumed that it may be a trust based ownership based on Fletch's statement that he was of the understanding there would be no home resort advantage. Since none of us heard the conversatioin nor do we know how accurate the source might have been, none of us will know until Marriott makes some sort of announcement.


----------



## dougp26364

EducatedConsumer said:


> I occasionally wonder about some participants in a community such as this one. I'm intrigued by people who amass 1000's of posts on a bulletin board like this; is their engagement recreation, I wonder, or signs of some other unique behavioral qualities?
> 
> I am struck by all of this speculation in the hundred of posts on this subject, and by the negativity that accompanies some of the speculation. I guess the likelihood of a publicly traded company telling those who exude significant ill will towards the company to take their business elsewhere is unlikely. That's too bad.
> 
> The beauty of communities such as this one is that all opinions are welcome. I'm just expressing some thoughts that crossed my mind.



We're just one big happy family who likes to really hash things out over time. Even if it is all guesswork.

And keep in mind that if everyone on these forums only posted 160 comments in 5 years, there'd be darn little information on these forums for people to read.


----------



## SueDonJ

Asia2000 said:


> I think your 3 bedroom point value will be the equivalent to a 2 bedroom + a studio value.  For example, a studio is worth 10,000.  A one bedroom 20,000.  A two bedroom 30,000 (The one bedroom + a studio would equal 30,000 in a lock-off situation).  A three bedroom 40,000.  This is assuming all units fall in the same season (ie. Platinum or Gold, etc.).
> 
> The extra week or bonus opportunity (upgrading or turning one week into two or turning two weeks into three) would occur through 10,000 point flexchanges that would be booked within 59 days or less.  From what I understand, you can currently upgrade today within II, possibly up to one year in advance by depositing your week/weeks/lock-offs, etc.  This is whole lot better than 59 days out.



What you're figuring for values is what I would expect, that among similar valued resorts a 3BR would be equal to another 3BR or a 2BR with a studio or a 1BR plus two studios, etc...  Among all of the resorts, a 3BR could be worth more or less depending on the overall rating of the specific resorts.  (In other words, what I'd get on Hilton Head during Platinum season might be more than what I'd get in Hawaii, or less than what I'd get in Silver season or at an Orlando resort.)  That sounds okay, fair even.  And I love the idea of lower point costs throughout the system during a flexchange-type period.

What happens now with my 3BR non-lockoff in II isn't as fair.  3BR inventory is extremely limited so up to this point I've had to accept 2BR units in exchanges regardless of whether the exchange resort is of more or less quality than what I own, with an AC only some of those times that could be upgraded during flexchange.  Other than the possibility of an AC, if an exchange to a 3BR is next to impossible, I can't imagine that I could get in II an upgrade from a 3BR no matter when the request is made.

Like I've said, though, the way exchanges work in II is what I've expected because that's how it was explained by the Marriott salesperson.  If Marriott doesn't roll out something new here I'll still be satisfied with II, but I am optimistic that what Marriott may offer might work better for me.  We'll see.


----------



## PerryM

*The rules of engagement...*



EducatedConsumer said:


> I occasionally wonder about some participants in a community such as this one. I'm intrigued by people who amass 1000's of posts on a bulletin board like this; is their engagement recreation, I wonder, or signs of some other unique behavioral qualities?
> 
> I am struck by all of this speculation in the hundred of posts on this subject, and by the negativity that accompanies some of the speculation. I guess the likelihood of a publicly traded company telling those who exude significant ill will towards the company to take their business elsewhere is unlikely. That's too bad.
> 
> The beauty of communities such as this one is that all opinions are welcome. I'm just expressing some thoughts that crossed my mind.



The aggressor, in any battle, sets the rules.

Marriott has had an active rumor campaign going on for 4 years now bashing me the resale owner.

This is a hostile campaign designed to hurt each of us by warning folks to stay away from resales; the net result is a lowering of our resale value when each of us sells.

I think its despicable and a harbinger of what Marriott intends to do to us with their new scheme to milk us for more money.  We have a perfectly good week based system that is going to be thrown in the trash so Marriott can just charge us money to use what we already own.

Folks who seem confused and aghast with anything negative about Marriott just don't understand the battle we are in and the battle we are about to undertake next week.

Good luck to all of us...


----------



## DanCali

PerryM said:


> Folks who seem confused and aghast with anything negative about Marriott just don't understand the battle we are in and the battle we are about to undertake next week.
> 
> Good luck to all of us...



Perry - I notice you link two websites in your signature.

Why not start another and call it "The Truth About The Marriott Points Program and How You Can Avoid Falling Victim"?

Seems like a good start for a long battle...


----------



## Asia2000

SueDonJ said:


> What you're figuring for values is what I would expect, that among similar valued resorts a 3BR would be equal to another 3BR or a 2BR with a studio or a 1BR plus two studios, etc...  Among all of the resorts, a 3BR could be worth more or less depending on the overall rating of the specific resorts.  (In other words, what I'd get on Hilton Head during Platinum season might be more than what I'd get in Hawaii, or less than what I'd get in Silver season or at an Orlando resort.)  That sounds okay, fair even.  And I love the idea of lower point costs throughout the system during a flexchange-type period.
> 
> What happens now with my 3BR non-lockoff in II isn't as fair.  3BR inventory is extremely limited so up to this point I've had to accept 2BR units in exchanges regardless of whether the exchange resort is of more or less quality than what I own, with an AC only some of those times that could be upgraded during flexchange.  Other than the possibility of an AC, if an exchange to a 3BR is next to impossible, I can't imagine that I could get in II an upgrade from a 3BR no matter when the request is made.
> 
> Like I've said, though, the way exchanges work in II is what I've expected because that's how it was explained by the Marriott salesperson.  If Marriott doesn't roll out something new here I'll still be satisfied with II, but I am optimistic that what Marriott may offer might work better for me.  We'll see.



Sue,

I think it is safe to say that the point value for your 3 bedroom will be based on a combination of MFs and the list cost of what Marriott sells your unit for now (or would sell it for if it was available).  If you have a floating week, it is my hope that all floating weeks would receive the same value, no matter what the deed says.  If they go by the deed, then certainly people would not be receiving what they purchased as some platinum weeks have much lower TDIs.  If you are unable to lockoff your 3 bedroom, you might like the idea of points.  I hope it is only $159 extra per year, but from what I read, it seems like the $1,250 is more along the lines of what will happen (based on the survey of course, not real facts).  

I think most deeded owners would rather pay a one time fee, than an annual fee.  I mean seriously, over 40 years, that is a whole ton of money, not even calculating possible interest and dividends if that money was invested.

Maybe TUG can giveaway a free Marriott timeshare to the TUGger who posts the program first.  I think I'm going to step away for a few days as I feel like too much time has gone into something that I have no control over.

Does anyone know how many Marriott owners participated in a survey?  Was it a majority or a minority?  Has Marriott provided any feedback from the surveys?  Certainly they would want to go to market with something people like and would be comfortable with?  Big changes with no testing or feedback I would think is full of risk and not wise.  My guess is that top shareholders would be informed as to what is happening.


----------



## PerryM

DanCali said:


> Perry - I notice you link two websites in your signature.
> 
> Why not start another and call it "The Truth About The Marriott Points Program and How You Can Avoid Falling Victim"?
> 
> Seems like a good start for a long battle...



Thanks, great idea...


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> Right, I'm assuming that a 3BR at my certain highly-valued resort will be allotted more points in any new system than a 2BR at the same or a similar resort, based on the fact that Marriott charges a higher purchase price for the extra bedroom.  I'd be very surprised if all units - efficiencies, 1BR, 2BR, 3BR - within a same resort will be allotted the same number of points, but if it happens that would certainly change my thinking.
> 
> And we've been all up, down and around what you call "points inflation" for the newer resorts as they're brought on line, m.  I know you find it difficult to believe and I don't know how many different ways it can be said so that you do believe it, but I do expect and will be okay with the newer resorts having higher point costs than the established resorts if the amenities of the newer resorts are that much superior to the established.  Within II now there is definite disparity in the exchange value of the existing resorts, as evidenced by the many "will my XYZ resort pull an ABC resort?" questions here on TUG.  Why wouldn't we expect a similar disparity in any other exchange system?  The difference will be that in Marriott's system we'll know up front how much value we own, as opposed to II's unpublished guessing game.


Sue-
I agree with you (I know, a shocker ) that IF a newer resort is really a higher quality and IF it is in a location that demands a higher rental price point (since what something rents for, at least for me, reflects an objective valuation between different properties, since Marriott sets rental rates for all properties ties to the same evaluative tool- the number of dollars it costs, presumable related to the amount someone is willing to pay) then it deserves a higher valuation. Where we disagree is that IF a new resort is built with more amenities but in a location that doesn't command the rental price on the fair market, then the valuations should also reflect that. For instance, they built Marco upscale and charged a ludicrous price for the units, but that doesn't make them worth it. If Marriott can't rent Marco for more money than let's say a summer HH week (and I haven't checked, so I am just using an example here) then regardless of the quality, the location may not demand the price, and the points allotted shouldn't be more.

I guess where we disagree is that I think location plays perhaps as big or bigger a part in the value formula as quality. On the other hand, if the next resort is a HH built to Marco specs, for example, then I would expect it to have a higher valuation set.

So, I am ok with newer resorts having higher values set IF both the amenities and the location dictate higher value. There is a reason why even exactly the same quality building commands a different price in different locations. What I am NOT ok with is if Marriott feels it has carte blanche to set values in order to convey a sense of "enhanced" value and promote sales, which is a real possibility if it retains a home resort system. Starwood has done it, and it hasn't benefited anyone. 

Using the Starwood example- ask a non Harborside or non-WSJ owner if they can ever reserve prime weeks through the Starwood system at the 8 month mark. Part of the reason there is that unit values were set years back, and newer resorts but in less prime locations in some instances have a higher point valuation, so owners there either use or rent, or trade privately. 

I am not saying Marriott will play fast and loose, but I am concerned that they will set valuations based on their own agenda, esp. in the future, which may leave current owners short and, as I've illustrated with the Starwood example, may not be good for either current or future buyers, who would likely suffer from a lack of availability of some great current resorts if that's the case.

It goes without saying that I'd expect different unit sized to be allotted different points.

And I could envision an ideal system where having the flexibility of points, switching between 2 or 3 BR units (or smaller) depending upon one's needs, would be a great option and allow for maximum flexibility as family dynamics change. I am just not sure that if Marriott has additional latitude that it will always do what's best for you and me.


----------



## tombo

What is going to be funny is the situation where you have a hard time getting a reservation to talk to a sales rep once this thing is rolled out. There is so much interest, information, and misinformation floating around that people who never attend sales presentations anymore (like myself) will be asking to attend one to find out how this program is going to work. It will be sad if they start telling us we have an opening wed at 4 or Fri at 8, and other than that we can't work you in this week. 

Dang I wonder if we will have to offer the salesmen gifts to see us. I will give you a ham and cheese sandwich and a new bic razor if you will give me an hour and a half points presentation, but you must talk to me for an hour and a half minimum to receive your gifts............


----------



## PerryM

*Buy - Rent - two different worlds*

EVERY Point based timeshare system faces two huge "numbers" which make or break the system:


Selling price of Point
Renting price of Point

One has nothing to do with the other.

Take the example of a whole-ownership condo.  The selling price is not related to the renting price.  Same with a Point based timeshare organization.

*Selling price of Point*
The Sales price has everything to do with purchasing forces of supply and demand.  A free real estate market determines a "fair" price for both the buyer and seller and it's called the independent real estate appraisal.

Timeshares, of course, have no such thing so its really up to the developer to set an imaginary price, so full of pork, that they bribe folks just to sit through a 90 minute high pressure sales pitch for a gift.

So a 3rd party is not available to help us with purchase price of timeshares; the free market can't help establish the real purchase price of a Point.

*Renting price of Point*
The renting price of a Point is very easy to come up with - it is 100% related to what the pubic would pay cold cash for to rent it.

Lots of dribble here about all kinds of things but rental rates are the ONLY way to let a 3rd party voice its opinion - I know of no other free market mechanism.  Is it perfect?  You better believe its as perfect as a human system can get.

Back to our condo example: A 2BR condo on Kaanapali Beach rents for $450 a night on the average lets say.  An identical 2BR condo on the hottest beach in Miami rents for $650 a night, lets say.  How can this be?

Simple, getting to Maui requires an additional cost for a family of $4,000, lets say, and they factor that into their comparison between Maui and a 4 hour car ride to Miami costing them $70 in gas round trip.

Maui owners can't demand $650 plus a premium for Maui - they must listen to their renters.  Here the free market factors everything into account.

Will Marriott base it's Points based upon rental rates between the various resorts?  Hell no, my bet is that the purchase price will impact the rental price which in the real world has only the slightest correlation.

This is the problem of mixing a sales system with a rental system and the free market becomes a joke after work at a bar.


----------



## EducatedConsumer

PerryM said:


> The aggressor, in any battle, sets the rules.
> 
> Marriott has had an active rumor campaign going on for 4 years now bashing me the resale owner.
> 
> This is a hostile campaign designed to hurt each of us by warning folks to stay away from resales; the net result is a lowering of our resale value when each of us sells.
> 
> I think its despicable and a harbinger of what Marriott intends to do to us with their new scheme to milk us for more money.  We have a perfectly good week based system that is going to be thrown in the trash so Marriott can just charge us money to use what we already own.
> 
> Folks who seem confused and aghast with anything negative about Marriott just don't understand the battle we are in and the battle we are about to undertake next week.
> 
> Good luck to all of us...



Boy, Dr. Phil could fill a season analyzing the writings on this forum.

My bet is that there's no battle, other than for the varieties of people who enjoy confrontation, or those who's lives may be so incomplete that they fill their day trolling the Internet. From what I've heard, Marriott will reclasify all unsold developer inventory and all new inventory into their new product form, leaving existing owners to decide on their own (without a gun held to their head) whether they want to "keep things as is (for them)" or voluntarily change (for a fee) the form of their ownership to the new form.  

If this is true, I'm left to wonder how MVCI resorts will be governed moving forward. I wonder if the new product form owners will be members of their own "Association" and if the new owners will be represented on the existing HOA's by representatives of a new Association, with individuals designated by that new Association casting  votes on the existing HOA's (e.g. unsold inventory at Shadow Ridge, where there is an existing HOA in place and unsold developer inventory). 

I won't begin to speculate, but I will wait to hear/read credible information released by Marriott, not conjecture by non-agents of Marriott.


----------



## indyhorizons

EducatedConsumer said:


> Boy, Dr. Phil could fill a season analyzing the writings on this forum.
> 
> My bet is that there's no battle, other than for the varieties of people who enjoy confrontation, or those who's lives may be so incomplete that they fill their day trolling the Internet. From what I've heard, Marriott will reclasify all unsold developer inventory and all new inventory into their new product form, leaving existing owners to decide on their own (without a gun held to their head) whether they want to "keep things as is (for them)" or voluntarily change (for a fee) the form of their ownership to the new form.
> 
> If this is true, I'm left to wonder how MVCI resorts will be governed moving forward. I wonder if the new product form owners will be members of their own "Association" and if the new owners will be represented on the existing HOA's by representatives of a new Association, with individuals designated by that new Association casting  votes on the existing HOA's (e.g. unsold inventory at Shadow Ridge, where there is an existing HOA in place and unsold developer inventory).
> 
> I won't begin to speculate, but I will wait to hear/read credible information released by Marriott, not conjecture by non-agents of Marriott.



I wonder why, if you think this thread is such a collosal waste of time, do I keep coming back finding posts from you. Just curious.... Or is it to show us how superior you are to the rest of us obvious unfulfilled people.  Give me a break...


----------



## tombo

EducatedConsumer said:


> Boy, Dr. Phil could fill a season analyzing the writings on this forum.
> 
> My bet is that there's no battle, other than for the varieties of people who enjoy confrontation, or those who's lives may be so incomplete that they fill their day trolling the Internet and badgering and heckling business owners (or extorting compensation from business owners (e.g. a TUG Member going to XYZ Resort next week, and curious what type of compensation he/she could expect if he/she slips on a banana peel in the lobby during their visit). From what I've heard, Marriott will reclasify all unsold developer inventory and all new inventory into their new product form, leaving existing owners to decide on their own (without a gun held to their head) whether they want to "keep things as is (for them)" or voluntarily change (for a fee) the form of their ownership to the new form.
> 
> If this is true, I'm left to wonder how MVCI resorts will be governed moving forward. I wonder if the new product form owners will be members of their own "Association" and if the new owners will be represented on the existing HOA's by representatives of a new Association, with individuals designated by that new Association casting  votes on the existing HOA's (e.g. unsold inventory at Shadow Ridge, where there is an existing HOA in place and unsold developer inventory).
> 
> I won't begin to speculate, but I will wait to hear/read credible information released by Marriott, not conjecture by non-agents of Marriott.




Boy could Dr Phil have a big time analyzing your post! 

In numerous posts you give thinly veiled statements demeaning people who post here as people who have no lives, people who badger business owners, people looking for slip and fall law suit information, etc. In spite of your personal distaste for people who have nothing better to do than post on TUG, you yourself voluntarilly log on to TUG, you voluntarilly read these posts ,and then you post here yourself. Hmmm, what would Dr Phil attribute such behavior to? Are you lonely with no personal life? Perhaps as you said you just like to be confrontational, to demean others, to feel superior, or perhaps you post here because you are an employee of Marriott. I guess Dr Phil will have to sort it all out because to guess your motivation to come here would be purely conjecture which of course no one is interested in and unacceptable.

Wait a minute. As you espouse your aversion to speculation with little or no facts in your last statement in your post, in a previous paragraph in the same post you state that from what you heard all unsold inventory and all new inventory will be in the new product form. That is either pure speculation based on heresay, or you work for Marriott and have inside information. So are you personally spreading as you call it conjecture by a non agent of Marriott, or are you an employee/agent of Marriott? My guess is that you work for Marriott, but again that is more of that nasty conjecture that you so despise if it is done by anyone other than yourself. 

By the way, before you brand me as someone who needs a life etc, let me give you facts and not heresay and conjecture. With regards to my personal facts: I enjoy posting on TUG, and in spite of that I have a career, a wife, children, I own many timeshares, and overall I have a great rewarding life. Sometimes I post here numerous times a day depending on my schedule and the topic(s) of interest, often I go weeks or months without making a post of any kind. Sometimes I post to ask questions about timeshare related topics, sometimes it is to give input from my ownership experiences at many different resorts, sometimes it is to debate a statement or thread that I disagree with (ex ROFR merits) or feel strongly about, sometimes I help people out with choice of car rental companies and things to do at places I have visited that they are not familiar with, and sometimes I make a post just because the urge hit me. I golf at the country club, I hunt, I fish, I have season tickets to see BAMA play football and attend all of the games including the National Championship Game we won at the Rose Bowl this year, and I travel as often as possible. I enjoy TUG and somehow I still find time to have a great life outside of the less than the 1% of time per year I spend on TUG. 

I am curious, why are you posting on TUG? You seem to dislike postulations, speculation, assumptions, and yet you post on a site discussing a program that has yet to be rolled out.  What else could be discussed but possibilities since no one but Marriott employees know for sure what is coming. I assume you post here with such disdain because you work for Marriott. That of course is conjecture and only you know your reasons for sure.


----------



## Fredm

PerryM said:


> Folks who seem confused and aghast with anything negative about Marriott just don't understand the battle we are in and the battle we are about to undertake next week.



Perry, there is no battle. You are shadow boxing.
Whatever happens next week is out of anyone's control.
Marriott cannot, repeat cannot, take away an owners deeded rights, and the reservation priority it provides. 

Marriott can try to convince owners their new scheme is a better mousetrap. AND Marriott can make it more difficult than at present for existing owners to work the exchange system to disproportionate advantage. 
But, that's the nature of the beast. Change is the one thing you can, and should, count on.

So, the fundamentals of a timeshare purchase should be the guiding light. Buy where you want to go, when you want to go.
If change prevents you from doing what you have always been able to, it will not be because you didn't know change was possible. 

I understand perfectly why you will not like it. Win some, lose some.

We are all taking among ourselves here. Not to the 90% + who don't know what they don't know.


----------



## brigechols

tombo said:


> Boy could Dr Phil have a big time analyzing your post!
> 
> In numerous posts you give thinly veiled statements demeaning people who post here as people who have no lives, people who badger business owners, people looking for slip and fall law suit information, etc. In spite of your personal distaste for people who have nothing better to do than post on TUG, you yourself voluntarilly log on to TUG, you voluntarilly read these posts ,and then you post here yourself. Hmmm, what would Dr Phil attribute such behavior to? Are you lonely with no personal life? Perhaps as you said you just like to be confrontational, to demean others, to feel superior, or perhaps you post here because you are an employee of Marriott. I guess Dr Phil will have to sort it all out because to guess your motivation to come here would be purely conjecture which of course no one is interested in and unacceptable.
> 
> Wait a minute. As you espouse your aversion to speculation with little or no facts in your last statement in your post, in a previous paragraph in the same post you state that from what you heard all unsold inventory and all new inventory will be in the new product form. That is either pure speculation based on heresay, or you work for Marriott and have inside information. So are you personally spreading as you call it conjecture by a non agent of Marriott, or are you an employee/agent of Marriott? My guess is that you work for Marriott, but again that is more of that nasty conjecture that you so despise if it is done by anyone other than yourself.
> 
> By the way, before you brand me as someone who needs a life etc, let me give you facts and not heresay and conjecture. With regards to my personal facts: I enjoy posting on TUG, and in spite of that I have a career, a wife, children, I own many timeshares, and overall I have a great rewarding life. Sometimes I post here numerous times a day depending on my schedule and the topic(s) of interest, often I go weeks or months without making a post of any kind. Sometimes I post to ask questions about timeshare related topics, sometimes it is to give input from my ownership experiences at many different resorts, sometimes it is to debate a statement or thread that I disagree with (ex ROFR merits) or feel strongly about, sometimes I help people out with choice of car rental companies and things to do at places I have visited that they are not familiar with, and sometimes I make a post just because the urge hit me. I golf at the country club, I hunt, I fish, I have season tickets to see BAMA play football and attend all of the games including the National Championship Game we won at the Rose Bowl this year, and I travel as often as possible. I enjoy TUG and somehow I still find time to have a great life outside of the less than the 1% of time per year I spend on TUG.
> 
> I am curious, why are you posting on TUG? You seem to dislike postulations, speculation, assumptions, and yet you post on a site discussing a program that has yet to be rolled out.  What else could be discussed but possibilities since no one but Marriott employees know for sure what is coming. I assume you post here with such disdain because you work for Marriott. That of course is conjecture and only you know your reasons for sure.



After reading posts on this thread from EducatedConsumer, I decided to make use of the Ignore feature on this bulletin board.


----------



## tombo

Fredm said:


> Perry, there is no battle. You are shadow boxing.
> Whatever happens next week is out of anyone's control.
> Marriott cannot, repeat cannot, take away an owners deeded rights, and the reservation priority it provides.
> 
> Marriott can try to convince owners their new scheme is a better mousetrap. AND Marriott can make it more difficult than at present for existing owners to work the exchange system to disproportionate advantage.
> But, that's the nature of the beast. Change is the one thing you can, and should, count on.
> .




Again as I say this I am surprised, but I agree with most of what Perry has to say (are you keeping note of this Perry?). Marriott salepeople tell you that they are going to roll out a program that penalizes resale owners. Every Marriott owner will be hurt by this because whether you purchased retail or resale, if you ever have to sell what you own is a resale week. How would you like it if Ford or GM had a campaign to reduce the value of your car purchased from them or from a used car lot? How about if ford said we are doing upgrades on all 2000 to 2010 ford vehicles at a cost of $3000 per car and if you don't upgrade we won't allow you to trade them in on a new car, we won't honor the warranty, and we will have your car red flagged in our computer so every service dept in the country will know that you didn't upgrade by your VIN? On top of that ford would proclaim to every person that comes on their lot that the vehicles which haven't been upgraded are worth a lot less than thos which have been upgraded, and they told everyone that the upgraded cars would be treated better by service dpts and dealerships all across the US. Would you feel loyal to them even though they are trying to kill the value of what they originally sold you? Well Marriott is trying to kill the value of the marriott product they have sold for decades, and nothing is right about that.

As far as the points syastem, this is to generate money for Marriott in a down economy at the expense of owners, pure and simple. There is no altruistic motive to help owners. The current system works fine and is what everyone payed for when they purchased retail or resale. if they wanted to help owners and set up an internal trading system they could have done so and offered it to members for a fee similar to what II charges annually. That wouldn't generate much income like revamping into points will. We all know that every time an owner swaps to points that is another week that you could trade for in the past that you will no longer have access to. You will not have what you paid for originally in a few years if marriott's point program sales are good and you have a very small pool of inventory to trade for.

Marriott's goal is to get enough people in points to where you will be forced to pay the extortion or else you will have little chance of ever getting a good exchange. It is changing the rules in the middle of the game and telling you that you can pay more money to convert or watch your access to inventory shrink more and more each year. It is simply wrong.


----------



## Fredm

Tombo, I agree with you. Marriott is doing this to benefit Marriott.
And, many existing owners will conclude that the ownership experience will be the worst for it.

Marriott currently has a great system. They change it at their peril.

I am not defending Marriott. I am just saying that it will be what it will be (and don't know what that is yet).

I DO know that Marriott cannot subvert home resort reservation rights.


----------



## tombo

Fredm said:


> Tombo, I agree with you. Marriott is doing this to benefit Marriott.
> And, many existing owners will conclude that the ownership experience will be the worst for it.
> 
> Marriott currently has a great system. They change it at their peril.
> 
> I am not defending Marriott. I am just saying that it will be what it will be (and don't know what that is yet).
> 
> I DO know that Marriott cannot subvert home resort reservation rights.



Marriott had the best overall system of any timeshare system IMO. I hope enough owners say no to points so that it remains that way, but through marketing, limited time incentives to get owners to convert quickly, and through fear mongering with threats of price increase in the near future if they wait to convert and through threats of not being able to use their week anywhere but at the home resort if they fail to go with points, I feel sure that they will get plenty of converts, make a bunch of money, and damage if not destroy a system which has opreated very well for decades.

One of my smaller resorts had unsold and HOA owned inventory that they sold to a greedy developer looking to make money of off existing owners by selling points, so I have been through the sales pitches and threats on more than one occasion at a resort I own, but I never thought Marriott would get so greedy and employ the same tactics to fleece their current owners.


----------



## timeos2

*Trading is completely different than owning. It's optional. Always has been.*



tombo said:


> As far as the points syastem, this is to generate money for Marriott in a down economy at the expense of owners, pure and simple. There is no altruistic motive to help owners. The current system works fine and is what everyone payed for when they purchased retail or resale. if they wanted to help owners and set up an internal trading system they could have done so and offered it to members for a fee similar to what II charges annually.



What owners "paid" for the existing trade system is what it is worth. Zero. If they choose to use it they pay to be a member & for each exchange. What Marriott will likely offer is an OPTION for a different system of exchange which, surprise, would cost them to be a member and may or may not carry a per exchange fee. What will it cost them to be offered that? Same as II. Nothing. 

What owners paid for was the deeded ownership & the associated use rights at the resort. Trading was is and will remain an optional item that they paid nothing for unless they choose to. How they bought (retail/resale) should have nothing to do with anything but, for their own reasons, Marriott has seemingly decided to put it into the mix. They don't have to and owners don't have to play along.  They can concentrate on making the best use of what they bought & own. Trading isn't part of that cost. 

If people bought thinking somehow trading was guaranteed it was an incorrect assumption.  Marriott blesses at least one outside exchange company and may soon add another (themselves). Plus for the luckiest owners RCI is also an option.  Those have the best choices. No reason all Marriotts shouldn't have multiple exchange choices but again for it's own reasons Marriott has decided to limit owner options for their own weeks. Pure power play because they can do it. As it isn't guaranteed they can do anything they want. You get only what you paid for & trading rights aren't paid for in the deeded sale.


----------



## DanCali

tombo said:


> Again as I say this I am surprised, but I agree with most of what Perry has to say (are you keeping note of this Perry?). Marriott salepeople tell you that they are going to roll out a program that penalizes resale owners. Every Marriott owner will be hurt by this because whether you purchased retail or resale, if you ever have to sell what you own is a resale week. How would you like it if Ford or GM had a campaign to reduce the value of your car purchased from them or from a used car lot? How about if ford said we are doing upgrades on all 2000 to 2010 ford vehicles at a cost of $3000 per car and if you don't upgrade we won't allow you to trade them in on a new car, we won't honor the warranty, and we will have your car red flagged in our computer so every service dept in the country will know that you didn't upgrade by your VIN? On top of that ford would proclaim to every person that comes on their lot that the vehicles which haven't been upgraded are worth a lot less than thos which have been upgraded, and they told everyone that the upgraded cars would be treated better by service dpts and dealerships all across the US. Would you feel loyal to them even though they are trying to kill the value of what they originally sold you? Well Marriott is trying to kill the value of the marriott product they have sold for decades, and nothing is right about that.
> 
> As far as the points syastem, this is to generate money for Marriott in a down economy at the expense of owners, pure and simple. There is no altruistic motive to help owners. The current system works fine and is what everyone payed for when they purchased retail or resale. if they wanted to help owners and set up an internal trading system they could have done so and offered it to members for a fee similar to what II charges annually. That wouldn't generate much income like revamping into points will. We all know that every time an owner swaps to points that is another week that you could trade for in the past that you will no longer have access to. You will not have what you paid for originally in a few years if marriott's point program sales are good and you have a very small pool of inventory to trade for.
> 
> Marriott's goal is to get enough people in points to where you will be forced to pay the extortion or else you will have little chance of ever getting a good exchange. It is changing the rules in the middle of the game and telling you that you can pay more money to convert or watch your access to inventory shrink more and more each year. It is simply wrong.



The post couldn't summarize my thoughts better.  

If Marriott wants to launch a new points program that's great. If it meets my needs and enhances my vacation experience at a reasonable cost, I may even join. 

But *all this can be done without imposing restrictions and rules that hurt resale values for all of us* and if the system is good then it will sell like hotcakes. How about a points system that is free for any existing or future Marriott owner to join and costs $100-$150 a year...? That sounds pretty promising to me because it opens more options and may even enhance resale values (albeit there is always the split inventory issue). It will also generate millions for Marriott so it's a win-win. Any rule that differentiates future resale buyers from retail buyers has an impact on all 400,000+ owners by reducing the value of what they own. This is a true cost no matter whether one intends to sell anytime in the near future or not.

Tombo is right - if Ford, GM, or Toyota didn't service used cars thereby destroying resale values there would be a global outrage. In fact, Ford, GM and Toyota also have the right "to change anything not in writing at will" - except consumer backlash will kill them, so they don't. I guess the difference is that most owners are not aware of the resale values of timeshares... On the other hand most Tuggers are ao I just can't see how anyone would look forward to this change given our expectations regarding the impact on resale values.


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## AwayWeGo

*Why Wait For Marriott To Join RCI ?*




timeos2 said:


> Marriott blesses at least one outside exchange company and may soon add another (themselves). Plus for the luckiest owners RCI is also an option.


What happens if RCI (say) decides to deal in Marriott timeshare deposits & exchanges without bothering to get the timeshare company to sign up in any way for RCI affiliation or RCI participation or RCI representation or anything ?  

Owners can use or rent out their Marriott timeshares, or (I think) can exchange them through independent exchange companies like SFX & DAE.  Why not RCI also?  (With or without the acquiescence of the timeshare company.)

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## timeos2

*Why not? Why not indeed.*



AwayWeGo said:


> What happens if RCI (say) decides to deal in Marriott timeshare deposits & exchanges without bothering to get the timeshare company to sign up in any way for RCI affiliation or RCI participation or RCI representation or anything ?
> 
> Owners can use or rent out their Marriott timeshares, or (I think) can exchange them through independent exchange companies like SFX & DAE.  Why not RCI also?  (With or without the acquiescence of the timeshare company.)
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



They could. There is only their own requirement that the resort affiliate. There is no reason that they couldn't take an individual owners deposit if they desired. Strictly an internal (and shortsighted to me) choice.


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## tombo

timeos2 said:


> What owners paid for was the deeded ownership & the associated use rights at the resort. Trading was is and will remain an optional item that they paid nothing for unless they choose to. How they bought (retail/resale) should have nothing to do with anything but, for their own reasons, Marriott has seemingly decided to put it into the mix. They don't have to and owners don't have to play along.  They can concentrate on making the best use of what they bought & own. Trading isn't part of that cost.
> 
> If people bought thinking somehow trading was guaranteed it was an incorrect assumption.  Marriott blesses at least one outside exchange company and may soon add another (themselves). Plus for the luckiest owners RCI is also an option.



Most here on TUG are educated timeshare consumers and we know that exchange rights were not guaranteed, but i assure you that they were implied if not outright promised every time you sat through a sales presentation. Verbal contracts are legally binding too, and I doubt that there is a single person who ever sat through a Marriott (or any developer's) sales presentation and was not promised they would be able to trade for other locations than the resort they were purchasing. Now Marriott is resorting to legal paperwork rather than honoring the good faith promise they have made to owners for years. You expect this type of bait and switch from most timeshare organizations, but not from Marriott or DVC (yes DVC is RTU and points, but that is how they always sold it, no pay me more because we are going to fixed weeks).

I know the reality is that you only actually own what is on your deed and in your contract. I know that it has been said 10,000 times here on TUG that you should never buy to trade, only buy where you want to stay and hope that it also brings you good trades.  However knowing all that no one ever imagined that Marriott of all resorts would change the whole way the system works and charge you to keep having an option to access large amounts of available marriott inventory. Marriott blessed an outside company (II) and it is great that they are starting an internal exchange company, but to make you pay to convert to a whole different system or be left in the cold as other owners convert is morally wrong IMO even though I am sure it is legal.


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## DanCali

timeos2 said:


> What owners "paid" for the existing trade system is what it is worth. Zero.



I strongly disagree with this statement (and the rest of the post).

I view the "true" value of a timeshare as the current (average) resale value. I view that value as comprised of two components - the value of using (or renting) the home resort and the value that can be derived from trading to other places.

To give an example - Starwood has Sheraton Vistana Villages and Sheraton Vistana Resort in Orlando. The former is "mandatory" (well, the first two phases are) and resale owners can trade via points while the latter is "voluntary" and resale owners can trade only via II. The MFs for SVV are around $1600 for a 2BR LO while the MFs at SVR are $500-$600 less. Yet the resale value of SVV is around $3K-$4K while the resale value of SVR is around zero.... Since one can rent a timeshare comparable to SVV in Orlando for less than MFs, the only reason it has resale any value is that it can trade into a 1BR in Hawaii or a 2BR at Harborside in the summer (subject to availability, of course). People pay for "trading opportunities".

You are right that using II involves ongoing payments. So does using a timeshare. But there is also an upfront payment to buy the timeshare, which includes an upfront payment for the "trading opportunities". If the 24 day II priority went away and owners competed for Marriott resorts with Starwood, Hilton, Hyatt, and Four Seasons owners I think we all agree resale values will drop. In some places (like Orlando) they may even crash. Hence owners who buy Marriott today pay for the II priority. They pay for the existing trading system in general.

As I pointed above, a new system can enhance resale values due to more options. Launching it with rules dedicates solely to destroy resale value is just wrong and counterproductive.


----------



## timeos2

*Verbal simply doesn't count if there is writing*



tombo said:


> Most here on TUG are educated timeshare consumers and we know that exchange rights were not guaranteed, but i assure you that they were implied if not outright promised every time you sat through a sales presentation. Verbal contracts are legally binding too,



Actually in real estate, and most other cases, verbal contracts are not binding IF there is a written one. The written trumps anything verbal.  It seems timeshare organizations not only know that but actually depend on it as part of the whole scheme.  It is really despicable how all of them don't sell the actual product half as hard as they do the non-guaranteed extras knowing full well its all fluff - they do not in any way stand behind any of it as proven if you ask for it in writing.  You will not get a single sentence. All yo own, and they know this too, is in the hundreds of written pages that comprised less than 10% of what they talked about. What a sham sales model and 99% do it (yes, even Disney although they are the best of a very bad group).


----------



## timeos2

*Trade has no monetary value*



DanCali said:


> You are right that using II involves ongoing payments. So does using a timeshare. But there is also an upfront payment to buy the timeshare, which includes an upfront payment for the "trading opportunities". If the 24 day II priority went away and owners competed for Marriott resorts with Starwood, Hilton, Hyatt, and Four Seasons owners I think we all agree resale values will drop. In some places (like Orlando) they may even crash. Hence owners who buy Marriott today pay for the II priority. They pay for the existing trading system in general.



Where in your purchase agreement / deed do you see the cost to trade? You don't because they "throw in the first year" when you buy retail - if you buy resale it's up to you to join RC/II or whatever or not. It's an option. You paid nothing for it & it has no value resale or retail. None. Does trade value play in resale value? Sure. But it has no value itself as it isn't a product or feature that can be bought or sold. No value. No cost. Trade rights are just there for the taking or to be ignored.  They cannot be given and they cannot be taken away. They belong to the owner and transfer with any sale.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> ... I guess the difference is that most owners are not aware of the resale values of timeshares... On the other hand most Tuggers are ao I just can't see how anyone would look forward to this change given our expectations regarding the impact on resale values.



Geeze, Dan, are you not reading anything I'm writing?  I'm a TUG regular and an "educated consumer" (hahahahaha) about MVCI products and the consistently devalued resale market attached to them (which, btw, existed long before this rumored system.)

You and I simply disagree on the extent to which this may impact the resale market further.  You say 20-40% of the value should be expected, I say we can expect only the ($1K ?) differential in initiation fees between developer-direct and external resales.  You say II's exchange system works fine for you and most MVCI owners, I've explained in detail why Marriott's offering may work better for me based on my history with II.

I can certainly understand why you and some others would not be looking forward to this change, considering that you've been able to take advantage of a devalued resale market from the other side as well as II's extensive trade-up opportunities.  It'd be nice if you could extend the same courtesy and try to understand others who already are aware that a devalued resale market will affect them to a great extent if/when they sell even without this new change, and who are not enjoying the same exchange benefits in II that you're currently enjoying.

It's all perspective, and what's right for some will not be right for all.  Is it really necessary to completely negate someone else's perspective in order to bolster yours?  I don't think so.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> What is going to be funny is the situation where you have a hard time getting a reservation to talk to a sales rep once this thing is rolled out. There is so much interest, information, and misinformation floating around that people who never attend sales presentations anymore (like myself) will be asking to attend one to find out how this program is going to work. It will be sad if they start telling us we have an opening wed at 4 or Fri at 8, and other than that we can't work you in this week.
> 
> Dang I wonder if we will have to offer the salesmen gifts to see us. I will give you a ham and cheese sandwich and a new bic razor if you will give me an hour and a half points presentation, but you must talk to me for an hour and a half minimum to receive your gifts............



I saw my salesperson last week at SurfWatch and she told me to feel free to contact her when the program is rolled out, she'll be more than happy to answer any questions.  I'm not surprised because she has consistently been the antithesis of every sales weasel that it seems every other TUGger has come across in their travels - we've been very lucky in that she's an owner with knowledge of MVCI's products and she's never once misrepresented them to us.

No, she didn't answer any specific questions about all this.  In fact I didn't ask, beyond, "have you heard anything?"  She has but doesn't have enough details to feel comfortable giving any answers beyond, "definitely something, and I'm looking forward to helping my owners work through it when it's announced."

I know most of you think it's completely crazy, but my Marriott sales rep is a true benefit to our ownership.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Geeze, Dan, are you not reading anything I'm writing?  I'm a TUG regular and an "educated consumer" (hahahahaha) about MVCI products and the consistently devalued resale market attached to them (which, btw, existed long before this rumored system.)
> 
> You and I simply disagree on the extent to which this may impact the resale market further.  You say 20-40% of the value should be expected, I say we can expect only the ($1K ?) differential in initiation fees between developer-direct and external resales.  You say II's exchange system works fine for you and most MVCI owners, I've explained in detail why Marriott's offering may work better for me based on my history with II.
> 
> I can certainly understand why you and some others would not be looking forward to this change, considering that you've been able to take advantage of a devalued resale market from the other side as well as II's extensive trade-up opportunities.  It'd be nice if you could extend the same courtesy and try to understand others who already are aware that a devalued resale market will affect them to a great extent if/when they sell even without this new change, and who are not enjoying the same exchange benefits in II that you're currently enjoying.
> 
> It's all perspective, and what's right for some will not be right for all.  Is it really necessary to completely negate someone else's perspective in order to bolster yours?  I don't think so.



First, I should point out that $1K is around 20% of the resale value in the case of many Marriott timeshares, even Platinum season (MGC, DSV I/II, Orlando resorts etc) not to mention that it's more than 20% for Gold and Silver seasons at many resorts. Saying it's just $1000 trivializes things a bit.

Second, I own at NCV which has only dedicated 2BR, so I am hardly one of the "trading up people" in the number of bedroom sense. In fact, I am likely to run into problems similar to yours with people locking off. 

As I said before, I certainly don't see a problem with having a points system that increases trading opportunities. But if such a system were to launch why do you (or more importantly, Marriott) necessarily see a need to have a differential in initiation fees between developer-direct and external resales? This is the thing that will destroy resale value for all of us and that's what bothers me. Personally, I don't see a need for an initiation fee at all... no fee means more people will convert (if it's a good system)... means more recurring annual fees for Marriott. The only reason there is a fee is to destroy resale value - it will not enhance the system in any way...


----------



## Dean

Fredm said:


> Tombo, I agree with you. Marriott is doing this to benefit Marriott.
> And, many existing owners will conclude that the ownership experience will be the worst for it.
> 
> Marriott currently has a great system. They change it at their peril.
> 
> I am not defending Marriott. I am just saying that it will be what it will be (and don't know what that is yet).
> 
> I DO know that Marriott cannot subvert home resort reservation rights.


IMO, Marriott doesn't have a great system, they have great resorts.  Their system is limited in many ways including to full weeks, is tied to II and has no transparency.  IMO, a good points system will be far superior to the current system.  That doesn't mean they'll make good choices though I think they will.  I really don't have much doubt about the desirability of a new Marriott points system, my doubts are centered around how to get from here to there and what happens if I decide not to participate either in part or altogether.  



tombo said:


> Marriott had the best overall system of any timeshare system IMO. I hope enough owners say no to points so that it remains that way, but through marketing, limited time incentives to get owners to convert quickly, and through fear mongering with threats of price increase in the near future if they wait to convert and through threats of not being able to use their week anywhere but at the home resort if they fail to go with points, I feel sure that they will get plenty of converts, make a bunch of money, and damage if not destroy a system which has opreated very well for decades.
> 
> One of my smaller resorts had unsold and HOA owned inventory that they sold to a greedy developer looking to make money of off existing owners by selling points, so I have been through the sales pitches and threats on more than one occasion at a resort I own, but I never thought Marriott would get so greedy and employ the same tactics to fleece their current owners.


As noted above, I think many, if not most, people involved in other systems would disagree.  From a system standpoint I find all of the systems I'm associated with to be better than Marriott (RCI points, DVC, Bluegreen and an individual resort).  A very good Marriott points system could easily jump to the top of the list for one reason, great resorts/locations.  IMO, why they're doing it really doesn't mean much and I'm sure they will make some money on it but more on the increased ability to sell new resorts and existing inventory than on existing owners who convert.  



> However knowing all that no one ever imagined that Marriott of all resorts would change the whole way the system works and charge you to keep having an option to access large amounts of available marriott inventory. Marriott blessed an outside company (II) and it is great that they are starting an internal exchange company, but to make you pay to convert to a whole different system or be left in the cold as other owners convert is morally wrong IMO even though I am sure it is legal.


Marriott has been rumored to be going to an internal exchange system that might be points based for a number of years.  Anyone on TUG fairly regularly the last 5-10 years would likely have seen this rumor.  The same rumor has existed for II since around the time RCI rumors started as well on this subject.  IMO, A few of the big players (in stature more than numbers like Marriott and DVC) could band together and create their own system and almost instantly take over as the leader in the exchange industry for quality timeshares.  Disney already has a licensed and functioning exchange company in place.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> First, I should point out that $1K is around 20% of the resale value in the case of many Marriott timeshares, even Platinum season (MGC, DSV I/II, Orlando resorts etc) not to mention that it's more than 20% for Gold and Silver seasons at many resorts. Saying it's just $1000 trivializes things a bit.
> 
> Second, I own at NCV which has only dedicated 2BR, so I am hardly one of the "trading up people" in the number of bedroom sense. In fact, I am likely to run into problems similar to yours with people locking off.
> 
> As I said before, I certainly don't see a problem with having a points system that increases trading opportunities. But if such a system were to launch why do you (or more importantly, Marriott) necessarily see a need to have a differential in initiation fees between developer-direct and external resales? This is the thing that will destroy resale value for all of us and that's what bothers me. Personally, I don't see a need for an initiation fee at all... no fee means more people will convert (if it's a good system)... means more recurring annual fees for Marriott. The only reason there is a fee is to destroy resale value - it will not enhance the system in any way...



I look at it as, Marriott will charge whatever fees are supported by the product.  That's it.  Marriott has not historically been concerned with values on the external resale market, they're not charged by the contracts with doing so, and it won't be a factor for this system going forward.

If I was looking at it the way you do, wouldn't you think that as a developer-direct buyer I'd be screaming bloody murder that they've already gotten a good chunk of my money and who do they think they are trying to get MORE?!?!  But it's simple - if they can, they will.  Like others I'd expect the initiation fees for direct purchases to be rolled into the purchase price after the system is implemented, but I fully expect that they will try to tap into a revenue stream by charging those fees to existing owners at roll-out.

Same with external resale buyers, although the added incentive for Marriott to charge them more (if that's how it rolls out) is that Marriott will be able to tap a revenue resource that's not been available to them prior to this.  I just don't see it as penalizing resale buyers the way you do, I see it as Marriott's thinktank coming to the conclusion that resale buyers who have realized a savings by purchasing on the resale market as opposed to direct sales, will at least consider the fee whatever it is as long as it and their purchase price is still less than the developer-direct fee.  And again, if they can, they will.

Timeshares are a revenue-producing business for Marriott, and as long as MVCI owners continue to perceive usage value in their purchases the revenue will continue.  It's not productive for us to think of them as anything more than that.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Same with external resale buyers, although the added incentive for Marriott to charge them more (if that's how it rolls out) is that Marriott will be able to tap a revenue resource that's not been available to them prior to this.  I just don't see it as penalizing resale buyers the way you do, I see it as Marriott's thinktank coming to the conclusion that resale buyers who have realized a savings by purchasing on the resale market as opposed to direct sales, will at least consider the fee whatever it is as long as it and their purchase price is still less than the developer-direct fee.  And again, if they can, they will.



If resale buyers pay whatever initiation fee there is, just like everyone else, isn't that already an untapped revenue source? If they think I'm going to pay them more than others while losing resale value on what I own they either (i) have a phenomenal product or (ii) they are still on that Marriottjuana someone there smoked 2 years ago...

Marriott sales are based on referrals and word of mouth. For that you need happy customers. Rather than declare war on resales, Marriott can learn to coexist with them, just like car companies. If they take money from my pocket to enrich themselves that's personal to me. I guess I'll either walk away, or I can also just continue to enjoy my vacations at their resorts and tell people I meet in the pool area to visit TUG before they buy... If I talk 2-3 people out of a sale over the course of 1 week that's $100K in lost sales to Marriott. Over 2-3 vacations a year that's $0.25MM in lost sales. You are right that in the grand scheme of things $1K in lost resale value, which would be attributable directly to Marriott's policies,  is not that much (I stand to pay much more than that is extra taxes next year with marginal tax rates and dividend taxes going up). In the grand scheme of things $0.25MM in lost sales is not that much to Marriott too... but take 100 owners like me who take it personally, and you can start to see why maybe they should care....


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> If resale buyers pay whatever initiation fee there is, just like everyone else, isn't that already an untapped revenue source? If they think I'm going to pay them more than others while losing resale value on what I own they either (i) have a phenomenal product or (ii) they are still on that Marriottjuana someone there smoked 2 years ago...



All existing owners are an untapped revenue source at roll-out of a new system, but the thinktank has probably surmised from research that direct purchase existing owners will be far less receptive to the initiation fees than external resale owners, simply because their purchase prices were higher.  I agree with you that Marriott doesn't have to charge different initiation fees, but I don't blame them if their business models tell them they can successfully do so if the product supports it.

And again I'll point out that your perspective as a possible seller on the external resale market is what is driving your opinion here, which is understandable because it's the sellers who will have to absorb whatever devaluation is inherent in this product.  But from my perspective, I still think that it's a bit hypocritical for those who have taken advantage of the existing devaluations as buyers on the external resale market to now be so extremely concerned with devaluations.  They've been able to buy at reduced prices into a system because no guarantee of residual value is supported by the contracts, yet now they want some guarantee?  It's a little too much victim mentality for me. 



DanCali said:


> Marriott sales are based on referrals and word of mouth. For that you need happy customers. Rather than declare war on resales, Marriott can learn to coexist with them, just like car companies. If they take money from my pocket to enrich themselves that's personal to me. I guess I'll either walk away, or I can also just continue to enjoy my vacations at their resorts and tell people I meet in the pool area to visit TUG before they buy... If I talk 2-3 people out of a sale over the course of 1 week that's $100K in lost sales to Marriott. Over 2-3 vacations a year that's $0.25MM in lost sales. You are right that in the grand scheme of things $1K in lost resale value, which would be attributable directly to Marriott's policies,  is not that much (I stand to pay much more than that is extra taxes next year with marginal tax rates and dividend taxes going up). In the grand scheme of things $0.25MM in lost sales is not that much to Marriott too... but take 100 owners like me who take it personally, and you can start to see why maybe they should care....



Well, good luck with your campaign to discredit Marriott's product to the extent that you are responsible for hundreds of thousands of dollars of lost Marriott revenue.  I maintain that if the product supports the cost to an individual, no matter how his/her costs relate to others' costs, then Marriott has a chance to be successful with this offering.  Isn't that how sales of the timeshares themselves work already, that different people see different value in paying whatever their individual costs may be?

Remember, too, the laws of unintended consequences.  If you and hundreds or thousands of others manage to discredit Marriott enough to impact their revenue in the millions, you will be devaluing their products even further by your own actions ...


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Remember, too, the laws of unintended consequences.  If you and hundreds or thousands of others manage to discredit Marriott enough to impact their revenue in the millions, you will be devaluing their products even further by your own actions ...



You can view this in a different way... shifting retail demand to the resale market can increase resale prices.



> But from my perspective, I still think that it's a bit hypocritical for those who have taken advantage of the existing devaluations as buyers on the external resale market to now be so extremely concerned with devaluations. They've been able to buy at reduced prices into a system because no guarantee of residual value is supported by the contracts, yet now they want some guarantee? It's a little too much victim mentality for me.



To me, the resale price is the true value of the product. I'd have no problem paying retail price if the resale price was the similar, but it's not because (i) it's not the same product (hotel points etc) and (ii) because the economics of the product to not support the artificial retail value (i.e. opportunity cost is too high and the price of comparable rentals). 

Once I paid what I paid, I hope the economics work out. If resale prices go down, the economics of owning are less favorable - to all owners. For example, say a product is worth $10K and has MFs of $1000 a year. I knew resale prices go down by $5k in the next 2 years, I'd sell today (pocket $10K), rent for two years (say at $2K per year) and buy back the product in two years for $5K. Versus the alternative of owning throughout, I ended up with $1K extra in my pocket and saved two maintenance fees in the process - so I'd be $3K ahead. My point it that timeshare ownership doesn't make sense if the product depreciates, and certainly if it depreciates too fast. Deliberate depreciation by the developer is literally stealing money from owners.

I truly don't get the " Marriott gives no guarantee of residual value" statements. Of course they don't - you maybe get that with car leases, but other than that does anyone give a guarantee? Yet, I can't point to companies outside of timeshare developers that deliberately go out there and destroy the resale values of their products... It's one thing to stop exercising ROFR. It's another to make up new fees that destroy value.

I posted a long post here with language from Google's IPO prospectus. I think we'll agree it sounds quite gloomy and there were no guarantees that anything good will happen. Yet people still bought Google - and not with the intention of losing money... How do you explain that?


----------



## scrapngen

tombo said:


> Again as I say this I am surprised, but I agree with most of what Perry has to say (are you keeping note of this Perry?). Marriott salepeople tell you that they are going to roll out a program that penalizes resale owners....
> 
> ....Marriott's goal is to get enough people in points to where you will be forced to pay the extortion or else you will have little chance of ever getting a good exchange. It is changing the rules in the middle of the game and telling you that you can pay more money to convert or watch your access to inventory shrink more and more each year. It is simply wrong.



TOMBO, in general I appreciate your input and also your experience with point systems being put on existing TS's - sorry that it has mostly been bad. 

One thing I have seen develop over this thread that I want to address is when you and others "forget" that we're disecting rumours rather than facts. 
Lately, there has been a "certainty" that resale owners are going to get bashed hard and are being targeted in a separate manner than developer purchasers. This seems to be the primary "negative" train of thought that get in people's throats and make this thread sound to some like a huge Marriott hating group. (Well, that, and the the thread title LOL)

I wish instead that some of the one-time viewers who haven't followed this thread for a long time, (and even those who have) might understand that many of the posters here actually like their Marriott property!!  And many are hoping that this new roll-out makes the crossover to take the best of some of the better point systems out there. And they value and use their extensive experience and knowledge to look at what this actually means beyond the marketing...

But few people are going to take this much time and energy posting "I am hoping they give us this great feature, and I am hoping they include that great feature."  Instead, it is "I hope this worst case scenario doesn't happen, and I hope that worst case scenario doesn't happen." Unfortunately, as those nightmares get visited, people start to see demons on every side, and suddenly those scenarios start being called "facts." As in, this "fact" is now ruining my TS value and I'm not happy!!!!   

Just my two cents here. I do enjoy a good debate, just want to keep the initial understanding that this is all a debate about rumors and gleaned possibilities rather than a final product. To return to the car analogy, it's similar to the car shows where some cars are the "future vision" and some are very close to what will actually roll out within the next season!! People point out what features they like and what could be very problematic...
Then the dealerships roll out the actual cars for the new year! Some things are just like the car shows, and some are never actually implemented. And sometimes there are surprises. Obviously, the car manufacturers are producing a product to make them the most money (!) and please their percieved target market. 
*And we are SO close to seeing the actual models on the floor  *


----------



## DanCali

scrapngen said:


> Lately, there has been a "certainty" that resale owners are going to get bashed hard and are being targeted in a separate manner than developer purchasers.



I agree that it's all rumors so far.

These rumors are at least from as early as post 169 so hardly recent... and considering the source of the rumors there is probably genuine cause for concern, at least for the people who care about resale values of what they own.


----------



## scrapngen

scrapngen said:


> ...Then the dealerships roll out the actual cars for the new year! Some things are just like the car shows, and some are never actually implemented. And sometimes there are surprises. Obviously, the car manufacturers are producing a product to make them the most money (!) and please their percieved target market.
> *And we are SO close to seeing the actual models on the floor  *



Oh, and to REALLY complete the analogy...we view the model in the dealership. We kick the tires. We decide to buy because it fits our needs, or we decide not to buy. We might decide to wait and see - is the car a good value down the road? or is it an embarassment that the company quickly covers up - like the pacer, vega, citroen, or ultimately - the Edsel!! Maybe it's an ok product, but bad resale value due to maintenance costs, expensive parts, etc. Or maybe we just want to buy it in the second round, after those first buyers who made the leap of faith, or had good salemen,  try it out and then share their opinions. Then we buy from the dealer as well, as there is no secondary market on such a new, different car...


----------



## SueDonJ

Our fundamental difference, Dan, is that I haven't considered the dollar value of our timeshare weeks AT ALL since purchasing them.  I expect that if we sell them there will be some return but it's anyone's guess what that will be, and it's certain that it will be nowhere near what we paid.

They were presented to us as a vacationing lifestyle.  That's it.  Our sales presentations were not full of the "lies" or "investment opportunities" that some report on TUG happens.  Our sales rep did not ever say that what we were considering purchasing would hold a certain value, or that we were "pre-paying reduced rates for vacations," or that we'd be able to "exchange anywhere in the world in like-for-like quality and size accommodations."  In fact she was quite clear that the 3BR units we were purchasing that fit our needs where we wanted to vacation, would most likely exchange out to 2BR units because of the limited 3BR inventory in the system.

I don't understand anymore than you do people who invest money in a financial vehicle such as stocks when the future appears doom-and-gloom, but I expect the people who invest in stocks use a different template for value than those of us who purchase timeshares.  Or at least I would expect them to, because not only are timeshares presented as vehicles which do not have a guarantee of investment dollar, they are quite clearly presented as vehicles which have a usage value ONLY.  Or, at least, that's how they were presented to me.  YMMV, although I suspect your contracts do not support whatever dollar value representations may have been verbally made to you.


----------



## DanCali

scrapngen said:


> Oh, and to REALLY complete the analogy...we view the model in the dealership. We kick the tires. We decide to buy because it fits our needs, or we decide not to buy. We might decide to wait and see - is the car a good value down the road? or is it an embarassment that the company quickly covers up - like the pacer, vega, citroen, or ultimately - the Edsel!! Maybe it's an ok product, but bad resale value due to maintenance costs, expensive parts, etc. Or maybe we just want to buy it in the second round, after those first buyers who made the leap of faith, or had good salemen,  try it out and then share their opinions. Then we buy from the dealer as well, as there is no secondary market on such a new, different car...



Well you didn't REALLY complete the analogy all the way, so let's do that.

After you view the model in the dealership - and potentially decide not to buy, you go home and discover your old car in the garage from the same dealer is worth 50% less because the dealer said they'll stop producing spare parts for it... 

Oh well - the dealer never did guarantee in writing any resale value or that they'll keep producing parts. How can you blame them for wanting to make higher margins on the next gen cars?


----------



## tombo

We do no know anything for sure which is why we are speculating, but what we do know without a doubt is that Marriott is going to roll out a points program to increase Marriott profits, not to benefit owners. If the new points/internal exchange program was implemented to benefit owners there would be a minimal enrollment fee charged to all current owners and you would get a letter explaining the new program. If you liked what you read you could call an 800 number and enroll over the phone using your credit card.  Marriott is instead rolling out a high dollar points program where the sales are handled by highly paid commission salesmen costing current owners 1000's of dollars to join. This is simply a new ploy to fleece existing owners since Marriott can't sell many retail timeshares in this economy. 

As for marriott implementing a program that will devalue resales, that has been said to each of us who attended a sales presentation for the last couple of years. I have been told more than a few times that Marriott is going to come out with a new exchange program that will either exclude resale owners or cost resale owners much more to participate in than it will cost those who purchased retail. Whatever progam Marriott actually uses to reduce resale values, it is wrong, and it will cost every Marriott owner or their children money when they decide to sell regardless of whether the week was originally purchased retail or resale. Isn't this a great way for marriott to show their  customer's how much they appreciate them?


----------



## tombo

DanCali said:


> Well you didn't REALLY complete the analogy all the way, so let's do that.
> 
> After you view the model in the dealership - and potentially decide not to buy, you go home and discover your old car in the garage from the same dealer is worth 50% less because the dealer said they'll stop producing spare parts for it...
> 
> Oh well - the dealer never did guarantee in writing any resale value or that they'll keep producing parts. How can you blame them for wanting to make higher margins on the next gen cars?



Great analogy!


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Well you didn't REALLY complete the analogy all the way, so let's do that.
> 
> After you view the model in the dealership - and potentially decide not to buy, you go home and discover your old car in the garage from the same dealer is worth 50% less because the dealer said they'll stop producing spare parts for it...
> 
> Oh well - the dealer never did guarantee in writing any resale value or that they'll keep producing parts. How can you blame them for wanting to make higher margins on the next gen cars?



I do like the analogy, really.  But I've gotta ask - can you get replacement parts for every piece of machinery that you own?  I sure can't, and it's the reason why my sewing machines have to be replaced instead of repaired every 8-10 years or so.  (They get a lot of use.)


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> We do no know anything for sure which is why we are speculating, but what we do know without a doubt is that Marriott is going to roll out a points program to increase Marriott profits, not to benefit owners. If the new points/internal exchange program was implemented to benefit owners there would be a minimal enrollment fee charged to all current owners and you would get a letter explaining the new program. If you liked what you read you could call an 800 number and enroll over the phone using your credit card.  Marriott is instead rolling out a high dollar points program where the sales are handled by highly paid commission salesmen costing current owners 1000's of dollars to join. This is simply a new ploy to fleece existing owners since Marriott can't sell many retail timeshares in this economy.
> 
> As for marriott implementing a program that will devalue resales, that has been said to each of us who attended a sales presentation for the last couple of years. I have been told more than a few times that Marriott is going to come out with a new exchange program that will either exclude resale owners or cost resale owners much more to participate in than it will cost those who purchased retail. Whatever progam Marriott actually uses to reduce resale values, it is wrong, and it will cost every Marriott owner or their children money when they decide to sell regardless of whether the week was originally purchased retail or resale. Isn't this a great way for marriott to show their  customer's how much they appreciate them?



But isn't there the slightest possibility that whatever gets rolled out can be BOTH a usage benefit to owners as well as a profit-maker for Marriott?  I think so ...


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> I do like the analogy, really.  But I've gotta ask - can you get replacement parts for every piece of machinery that you own?  I sure can't, and it's the reason why my sewing machines have to be replaced instead of repaired every 8-10 years or so.  (They get a lot of use.)




By law auto manfacturers have to provide parts for all of their vehicles up to if i am not mistaken 20 years after the last model rolled off the assembly line. After that junk yards have parts to be purchased to keep your vehicle operable for longer. 

To refuse to honor weeks trades internally unless you pay $1000's to convert is more like the auto dealer having parts but refusing to use the existing parts to fix the car unless you paid $1000's to have the car upgraded first resulting in the car eventually becoming inoperable unless the extortion is paid.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Shux Upon OEM Car Parts.  Go With Generic Aftermarket Car Parts.*




DanCali said:


> After you view the model in the dealership - and potentially decide not to buy, you go home and discover your old car in the garage from the same dealer is worth 50% less because the dealer said they'll stop producing spare parts for it.


Some aftermarket car parts are of higher quality than the originals.  

Shux, some aftermarket parts _are_ the originals -- just with different labels, as when the automakers get'm from the same manufacturers as the aftermarket suppliers.  

Plus, there are junkyards galore with serviceable used auto parts for practically anything on the road.  (I mean, why install _new_ parts on _used_ cars?)

BTW, the car companies are still going through _el shrinko_.  The Mercury line is being dropped.  Plymouth has been gone for several years.  Oldsmobile & Pontiac & Saturn have been discontinued.  Regardless, parts for the Oldses & Mercs, etc., will likely remain available as long as the cars are on the road. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## billymach4

*New line of Hotels and Timeshare*



AwayWeGo said:


> Some aftermarket car parts are of higher quality than the originals.
> 
> Shux, some aftermarket parts _are_ the originals -- just with different labels, as when the automakers get'm from the same manufacturers as the aftermarket suppliers.
> 
> Plus, there are junkyards galore with serviceable used auto parts for practically anything on the road.  (I mean, why install _new_ parts on _used_ cars?)
> 
> BTW, the car companies are still going through _el shrinko_.  The Mercury line is being dropped.  Plymouth has been gone for several years.  Oldsmobile & Pontiac & Saturn have been discontinued.  Regardless, parts for the Oldses & Mercs, etc., will likely remain available as long as the cars are on the road.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



*


New line of Hotels and Timeshare

I just found out that Marriott will fall victim to a hostile takeover from a Private Investment concern in Japan.

The new company will be called Marriottsu. 

We are in better shape already! Those Japanese can really run a quality ship!


*


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> But isn't there the slightest possibility that whatever gets rolled out can be BOTH a usage benefit to owners as well as a profit-maker for Marriott?  I think so ...



Sure it could. See the last few posts regarding a no enrollment fee program that gives owners more flexible exchange options for an annual fee payable to Marriott instead of II. I'd pay Marriott $150 a year if I could get like for like exchanges via instant phone confirmation and have the ability to do short stays (although "like for like" for me may not be what Marriott sees as "like for like"). For $250 a year I'd even enroll both my VOIs. Who knows - maybe they'll even be worth more on the resale market. 

At some point, if short term greed bring about initiation fees and higher fees for resale buyers then that comes at the expense of owners in the form of lower resale values. That's much harder for me to stomach.


----------



## tombo

scrapngen said:


> Oh, and to REALLY complete the analogy...we view the model in the dealership. We kick the tires. We decide to buy because it fits our needs, or we decide not to buy. We might decide to wait and see - is the car a good value down the road? or is it an embarassment that the company quickly covers up - like the pacer, vega, citroen, or ultimately - the Edsel!! Maybe it's an ok product, but bad resale value due to maintenance costs, expensive parts, etc. Or maybe we just want to buy it in the second round, after those first buyers who made the leap of faith, or had good salemen,  try it out and then share their opinions. Then we buy from the dealer as well, as there is no secondary market on such a new, different car...



But this is not a new anything. They have not built any new Points only Marriott resorts. Any owner who converts to points or any new owner who buys points will stay in the same Marriott rooms and resorts that have been occupied by weeks owners for decades. Same resorts, same amenities, same room numbers, the same everything. The only thing new is that marriott wants you to pay more to continue to do what you paid to do when you originally purchased a Marriott week.


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## timeos2

*Shoe leather and the world turns*



billymach4 said:


> *
> 
> 
> New line of Hotels and Timeshare
> 
> I just found out that Marriott will fall victim to a hostile takeover from a Private Investment concern in Japan.
> 
> The new company will be called Marriottsu.
> 
> We are in better shape already! Those Japanese can really run a quality ship!
> 
> 
> *



But my resale value wil be RUINED if they take over!  Why? Because they make you take your shoes off before you walk in the unit. I ALWAYS was able to wear my shoes on the carpet and taking that right away is a slap to every shoe wearing owner in the system.  If all Marriottsu cares about is clean carpet even at the expense of making 400,000 shoe owning and wearing owners then I guess we all know who doesn't give a **** about those poor owners that supported the resorts and the local cobbler for the past 20 years. 

Sure I might wear resale shoes but they were good enough before Marriottsu took over so why not now. 

This is an outrage.


----------



## PerryM

This place has gone totally insane without me.

I'll see you guys next week when all of this will appear to be child's play as 400,000 owners join in!


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> By law auto manfacturers have to provide parts for all of their vehicles up to if i am not mistaken 20 years after the last model rolled off the assembly line. After that junk yards have parts to be purchased to keep your vehicle operable for longer.
> 
> To refuse to honor weeks trades internally unless you pay $1000's to convert is more like the auto dealer having parts but refusing to use the existing parts to fix the car unless you paid $1000's to have the car upgraded first resulting in the car eventually becoming inoperable unless the extortion is paid.



Except that with your weeks you will have the opportunity to choose to remain with the current II system and not elect Marriott's new option, which presumably many existing owners will do if they don't think that the new system supports whatever the costs are to join.  That's not the same as the car companies not giving you any choice at all.


----------



## tombo

PerryM said:


> This place has gone totally insane without me.
> 
> I'll see you guys next week when all of this will appear to be child's play as 400,000 owners join in!




Normally we are of opposing views and every post I make has a counterpoint posted by you. For possibly the first time ever I agree with you and you are nowhere to be found. That sounds about right lol.


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> Except that with your weeks you will have the opportunity to choose to remain with the current II system and not elect Marriott's new option, which presumably many existing owners will do if they don't think that the new system supports whatever the costs are to join.  That's not the same as the car companies not giving you any choice at all.



If they are succesful marketing the points you do have a choice. You have the choice to convert for $1000's and be able to trade for Marriott resorts or remain weeks and each year have less and less opportunity to exchange for a decent Marriott week. The choice is pay the extortion or watch your marriott week/car limp along getting weaker and weaker each year until it is barely functional. Two bad choices. Pay extortion to keep your car/week functional or have the week/car you purchased which currently works fine deteriorate into something that barely/rarely works like it used to.


----------



## Dean

tombo said:


> If they are succesful marketing the points you do have a choice. You have the choice to convert for $1000's and be able to trade for Marriott resorts or remain weeks and each year have less and less opportunity to exchange for a decent Marriott week. The choice is pay the extortion or watch your marriott week/car limp along getting weaker and weaker each year until it is barely functional. Two bad choices. Pay extortion to keep your car/week functional or have the week/car you purchased which currently works fine deteriorate into something that barely/rarely works like it used to.


Yes, certainly in the Perry mode of doom and gloom.  While I agree that things will change and it's likely the internal II trading preference will eventually go away, I don't think it's nearly as bad as you say even in the worst case scenario.  It's also likely there will be benefits for those that don't convert esp for those that own something desirable like Platinum HH for example.  The low predictions may be true for lower demand weeks, esp Bronze, but even then they'll just find their rightful place in a free market, no worse.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> If they are succesful marketing the points you do have a choice. You have the choice to convert for $1000's and be able to trade for Marriott resorts or remain weeks and each year have less and less opportunity to exchange for a decent Marriott week. The choice is pay the extortion or watch your marriott week/car limp along getting weaker and weaker each year until it is barely functional. Two bad choices. Pay extortion to keep your car/week functional or have the week/car you purchased which currently works fine deteriorate into something that barely/rarely works like it used to.



But there's another possibility if what's in that survey is followed closely.  Say they do allow the option to join the points system for a 3-year period.  We really did buy to use at our home resort but learned that we also enjoy exchanging, so I can see where we'd consider paying for Marriott's new option only three of every six years.  If it's possible, we'd stay as is for three years of home resort and II-exchange usage, then pay for Marriott's option with home resort or "cluster" priority usage for three years, then back to as is for three years ...  wouldn't that allow the current option with II to remain a viable alternative to Marriott's new system for many years?


----------



## wuv pooh

If I was Marriott I would exclude resale buyers from the internal trading system or charge em a premium similar to buying developer - just crush em.

Then I would let developer purchasers into the system for a small fee, say $500 to do the closing and rework.  Then I would guarantee the people who bought developer and want to stay weeks or get out 35% of the current retail value to preserve their resale value, but you sell to Marriott who recycles them as points.  Then I would ROFR every non developer purchased week when those people get fed up and sell out.

Kill multiple birds with one stone.   Get most people in the new system, get lots of inventory for the new system, get rid of the resale market for good, and provide lots of new points to sell without building any new resorts  .


----------



## SueDonJ

wuv pooh said:


> If I was Marriott I would exclude resale buyers from the internal trading system or charge em a premium similar to buying developer - just crush em.
> 
> Then I would let developer purchasers into the system for a small fee, say $500 to do the closing and rework.  Then I would guarantee the people who bought developer and want to stay weeks or get out 35% of the current retail value to preserve their resale value, but you sell to Marriott who recycles them as points.  Then I would ROFR every non developer purchased week when those people get fed up and sell out.
> 
> Kill multiple birds with one stone.   Get most people in the new system, get lots of inventory for the new system, get rid of the resale market for good, and provide lots of new points to sell without building any new resorts  .



Okay, but can we wear our shoes in the units or not?


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Shoes Are OK.*




SueDonJ said:


> Okay, but can we wear our shoes in the units or not?


Yes -- but you have to drive to the timeshare in a car equipped with aftermarket parts. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## catharsis

*Seeking a conclusion.*

Some hypotheses/assumptions first.

1. Marriott announce a Points-based system next week.

2. This system is optional, can be joined for US$169 per year, and membership includes 'group' II membership of some sort.

3. Points can be used (subject to conditions) to buy individual nights, weekends etc. subject to EXACTLY the restrictions already in-place in the AP program (IIRC individual nights 30 days in advance, and 3-day breaks 3 months in advance only)

My questions

Is that a welcome or unwelcome development ? (I know individual users will make decisions based upon valuations of their weeks, but overall is it a 'Bad Thing'?)

I've read all 83 pages, and while I lean toward Perry's mindset I'm wondering at whether the 'basic' changes above are really significant enought to cause problems?


(also, is there any reason apart from spite on Marriott's part why they would *not *allow re-sale owners to participate in this program?)

Would be interested in hearing peoples thoughts based upon the 'minimal' assumptions above.


----------



## dioxide45

catharsis said:


> I've read all 83 pages



83? I only show 27...


----------



## JimIg23

SueDonJ said:


> Okay, but can we wear our shoes in the units or not?



I for one am against shoes in the units, makes the carpet too dirty.  Just like smoking, they should charge anyone $500 if found wearing shoes in the units.


----------



## aka Julie

dioxide45 said:


> 83? I only show 27...



You must have changed your "Thread Display Options" in your User CP.  I show 83 pages also and mine is set to the default setting.


----------



## tombo

I vote yes for an optional point system for $250 a year or less with internal exchanges and no conversion fee. If marriott rolls the new points system out at that low of a price then these 83 pages and worries were all for nothing.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Don't Worry.  Be Happy.*




tombo said:


> If marriott rolls the new points system out at that low of a price then these 83 pages and worries were all for nothing.


Nothing but the entertainment value, anyway. 

Any time people get bored, they can always start flogging ROFR again.  

That's good for approximately 2-3 TUG-BBS go-rounds per year. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## tombo

Kind of hard to get really fired up about ROFR since nobody exercises it on a regular basis anymore. Ohhhhh for the good old days when just the mention of ROFR would start a debate that was intense and entertaining.

I feel like the new points system will be so hated by some, and so loved by others, that it will be the discussion with guaranteed fireworks. I don't even know the details yet and I feel sure that I am not going to like it........The times, they are a changin......


----------



## MOXJO7282

I am really perplexed by something. The fact that there has been no media coverage whatsoever about this pending Marriott change. If it were anything significant wouldn't you think some news agency of some type would have picked something up by now. 

Based on all the rumors it does seem apparent to me that something is coming, but it just seems very odd to me that there hasn't been more leaked to the press somehow. 

It really makes me wonder what is actually going to happen.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Timeshare News Isn't Really News.*




MOXJO7282 said:


> I am really perplexed by something. The fact that there has been no media coverage whatsoever about this pending Marriott change. If it were anything significant wouldn't you think some news agency of some type would have picked something up by now.
> 
> Based on all the rumors it does seem apparent to me that something is coming, but it just seems very odd to me that there hasn't been more leaked to the press somehow.
> 
> It really makes me wonder what is actually going to happen.


A.  All this Marriott points stuff is still just rumor & speculation. 

B.  Timeshare developments are generally way, way below the radar of the news media. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## brianfox

I have to mention something that concerns points that happened not one hour ago...

I was on the phone with II Marriott desk.  I got an exchange during Flex (into 1BR Hawaii for a 2BR Marriott Branson), and I was asking the rep if, since the trade occurred in Flex, we could trade a 1BR Branson from a different year instead of the 2BR.  The agent went away to discuss it with her superior and came back to tell me that they could not do the alternate exchange because the 1BR Branson didn't have enough trading power.

But here's the thing....

What she told me was that the Marriott Branson did not have enough "POINTS".  I told her that was the first time I ever heard that word uttered by anyone at II.  She went on to say that the Marriott Branson week "was about 1,000 POINTS shy of qualifying for the exchange".  I asked her again what she meant by points, and she was silent for a moment and told me it didn't have the trading power.

I believe I said to her "I have a feeling I just heard something I wasn't supposed to hear"...

Don't know if it means anything at all, but remember - this was the Marriott desk of II.

Any thoughts on this?


----------



## RandR

brianfox said:


> I have to mention something that concerns points that happened not one hour ago...
> 
> I was on the phone with II Marriott desk.  I got an exchange during Flex (into 1BR Hawaii for a 2BR Marriott Branson), and I was asking the rep if, since the trade occurred in Flex, we could trade a 1BR Branson from a different year instead of the 2BR.  The agent went away to discuss it with her superior and came back to tell me that they could not do the alternate exchange because the 1BR Branson didn't have enough trading power.
> 
> But here's the thing....
> 
> What she told me was that the Marriott Branson did not have enough "POINTS".  I told her that was the first time I ever heard that word uttered by anyone at II.  She went on to say that the Marriott Branson week "was about 1,000 POINTS shy of qualifying for the exchange".  I asked her again what she meant by points, and she was silent for a moment and told me it didn't have the trading power.
> 
> I believe I said to her "I have a feeling I just heard something I wasn't supposed to hear"...
> 
> Don't know if it means anything at all, but remember - this was the Marriott desk of II.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?



That would be really interesting.  Now we don't know the number of points each place will be assigned or if 1000 or 10000 is a lot of points but this might be encouraging.  People have speculated that places like Branson and Orlando might not fair too well as they are overbuilt.  But this is showing that Branson and Hawaii aren't that far apart.  Of course it could be that Hawaii is 2000 and Branson is 1000 so it is double but I doubt the absolute numbers will be that low.


----------



## dougp26364

tombo said:


> I vote yes for an optional point system for $250 a year or less with internal exchanges and no conversion fee. If marriott rolls the new points system out at that low of a price then these 83 pages and worries were all for nothing.



In think the 83 pages of worry are for nothing no matter what Marriott does. No matter what they do, I still own the week I purchased.


----------



## DanCali

brianfox said:


> Any thoughts on this?



Or it could just be II internal method of assigning trading power... Surely they must assign some numbers based on unit size, resort, season, when you deposit etc. Maybe those numbers are referred to internally as "POINTS"??


----------



## dougp26364

tombo said:


> Kind of hard to get really fired up about ROFR since nobody exercises it on a regular basis anymore. Ohhhhh for the good old days when just the mention of ROFR would start a debate that was intense and entertaining.
> 
> I feel like the new points system will be so hated by some, and so loved by others, that it will be the discussion with guaranteed fireworks. I don't even know the details yet and I feel sure that I am not going to like it........The times, they are a changin......




Don't let people scare you about points systems. Three of our seven timeshares are in points systems. Points systems have more flexablity and offer more value than traditional weeks based systems. I would love for Marriott to come out with something that competes with the best of the points based systems.

My only worry is they'll introduce some sort of trust based ownership rather than an internal points based exchange system. I'll really have to look that over before jumping onboard. Even if there's no joiner fee and minimal management fee's.


----------



## dougp26364

brianfox said:


> I have to mention something that concerns points that happened not one hour ago...
> 
> I was on the phone with II Marriott desk.  I got an exchange during Flex (into 1BR Hawaii for a 2BR Marriott Branson), and I was asking the rep if, since the trade occurred in Flex, we could trade a 1BR Branson from a different year instead of the 2BR.  The agent went away to discuss it with her superior and came back to tell me that they could not do the alternate exchange because the 1BR Branson didn't have enough trading power.
> 
> But here's the thing....
> 
> What she told me was that the Marriott Branson did not have enough "POINTS".  I told her that was the first time I ever heard that word uttered by anyone at II.  She went on to say that the Marriott Branson week "was about 1,000 POINTS shy of qualifying for the exchange".  I asked her again what she meant by points, and she was silent for a moment and told me it didn't have the trading power.
> 
> I believe I said to her "I have a feeling I just heard something I wasn't supposed to hear"...
> 
> Don't know if it means anything at all, but remember - this was the Marriott desk of II.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?




It's just their (Interval's) internal grading system for exchanges. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## bobcat

dougp26364 said:


> Don't let people scare you about points systems. Three of our seven timeshares are in points systems. Points systems have more flexablity and offer more value than traditional weeks based systems. I would love for Marriott to come out with something that competes with the best of the points based systems.
> 
> My only worry is they'll introduce some sort of trust based ownership rather than an internal points based exchange system. I'll really have to look that over before jumping onboard. Even if there's no joiner fee and minimal management fee's.



Have you seen the resale prices of Sunterra and DRI points. Also, the M F's are very high. I will keep my week.


----------



## cruisin

They would be better off making it inexpensive to get in, make it a huge success, then systematically raise the fees. once everybody's in, it would be hard to quit.


----------



## DanCali

cruisin said:


> They would be better off making it inexpensive to get in, make it a huge success, then systematically raise the fees. once everybody's in, it would be hard to quit.



Pretty amazing how every hypothesis ends up with owners eventually getting screwed in some form or another - whether it's on resale value, or fees. Marriott settling for honest fees and keeping owners happy and resale values intact doesn't even seem to be remotely likely... - even for the people hopeful about the program.


----------



## scrapngen

tombo said:


> But this is not a new anything. They have not built any new Points only Marriott resorts. Any owner who converts to points or any new owner who buys points will stay in the same Marriott rooms and resorts that have been occupied by weeks owners for decades. Same resorts, same amenities, same room numbers, the same everything. The only thing new is that marriott wants you to pay more to continue to do what you paid to do when you originally purchased a Marriott week.



My car references were not addressing the room, but the system that surrounds the usage. Clearly a points system (new car) would be different than the current weeks system. (current nice car) Maybe I should say that the interior of the car is identical? LOL 

I don't agree that Marriott is asking you to pay more to "continue to do what you paid to do when you originally purchased a Marriott week." To me, they potentially are asking you to pay more to be able to utilize your current ownership in a different way that is not possible with your original purchase. (new car) 

Now, the scare tactic could be - if you choose not to purchase this enhancement (oooh, there we go, it's not a NEW car, it's money to make your car into a suped-up version!) - there will be problems down the road.  Sure, it costs a little money, but now your gas milage is better, or your engine is more powerful, and/or whatever analogy fits. Keep your car the same if you wish. However, the new suped-up version - I don't know - wins more races? fits into parking places that you currently can't access? OK, let's go with that, since this will allow for a re-sale possible devaluation. Some people won't like the new look of the car. Some will think it is too expensive and not worth being able to get into small parking places. But others will jump at the idea. It's environmentally friendly as it has a smaller footprint. :rofl:  Smaller size allows for better trades as they can be doubled up yet still retain that amazing interior. Gradually, parking places are restriped to only allow the new car to fit. Old car is too big (even though it still has the same interior). Sure, there are still some spaces available, but they are going away as more owners pay to sup-up their cars.  But they will continue to have a perfectly good parking place at THEIR HOME RESORT. Can't take that away or change it according to the deed. 

Disclaimer: I may have had too little sleep or too much Marriottjuana (just a joke, folks!)  today...


----------



## scrapngen

DanCali said:


> Well you didn't REALLY complete the analogy all the way, so let's do that.
> 
> After you view the model in the dealership - and potentially decide not to buy, you go home and discover your old car in the garage from the same dealer is worth 50% less because the dealer said they'll stop producing spare parts for it...
> 
> Oh well - the dealer never did guarantee in writing any resale value or that they'll keep producing parts. How can you blame them for wanting to make higher margins on the next gen cars?



I do love this completion!  
I guess as a potential counter, because we are all guessing at how resales will fair... I'd say that all things must gradually change with the times and eventually that great car becomes outdated over time as other companies roll out great new models with features that were not thought of/possible/or desirable at the time your car was designed.  To keep many of your owners happy, you are offering a suped-up enhancement to your current vehicle. It makes your car environmentally more friendly and adds some features that make it more useful or up-to-date. Also,  when you car-swap with another couple to get to a different location once in awhile, you are able to get into a better car and more or better locations because your enhanced car swaps better. You love your current car, most owners love their current car, yet also like some things they see in the neighbor's car and wish there car was more like the car next door. Most companies need to have something new to stay in business as times change and they need to compete with their competition. 
Yes, it can be annoying, and is incomprehensible to some: Why change a perfectly good product that functions well. But still, newer products are out there with features that are not part of the current car. Why wouldn't a company want to earn some money and enhance their product??


----------



## brianfox

RandR said:


> That would be really interesting.  Now we don't know the number of points each place will be assigned or if 1000 or 10000 is a lot of points but this might be encouraging.  People have speculated that places like Branson and Orlando might not fair too well as they are overbuilt.  But this is showing that Branson and Hawaii aren't that far apart.  Of course it could be that Hawaii is 2000 and Branson is 1000 so it is double but I doubt the absolute numbers will be that low.



Not to get off the subject regarding Branson strength, but this was my first trade with the property.  It is a dog season (blue) and is typically only good for trades during Flex.  I put the request in (request-first type) for 2BR Branson requesting 1BR Ko Olina - and only for one specific summer week.  I was stunned it went through, but dtill think it was a fluke.


----------



## dougp26364

bobcat said:


> Have you seen the resale prices of Sunterra and DRI points. Also, the M F's are very high. I will keep my week.



Yes I've seen the resale prices. DRI doesn't exercise ROFR. Polo Towers resale prices were in the tank BEFORE they converted to Sunterra's points based system. The points based system didn't kill the resale values of the two weeks I owned. 

As for MF's being high, the same can be said for Marriott right now. Sunterra's MF's were considerably lower before DRI took them over. If you're trying to compare DRI to Marriott, then you're comparing apples to oranges.


----------



## GregT

catharsis said:


> Some hypotheses/assumptions first.
> 
> 1. Marriott announce a Points-based system next week.
> 
> 2. This system is optional, can be joined for US$169 per year, and membership includes 'group' II membership of some sort.
> 
> 3. Points can be used (subject to conditions) to buy individual nights, weekends etc. subject to EXACTLY the restrictions already in-place in the AP program (IIRC individual nights 30 days in advance, and 3-day breaks 3 months in advance only)
> 
> My questions
> 
> Is that a welcome or unwelcome development ? (I know individual users will make decisions based upon valuations of their weeks, but overall is it a 'Bad Thing'?)
> 
> I've read all 83 pages, and while I lean toward Perry's mindset I'm wondering at whether the 'basic' changes above are really significant enought to cause problems?
> 
> 
> (also, is there any reason apart from spite on Marriott's part why they would *not *allow re-sale owners to participate in this program?)
> 
> Would be interested in hearing peoples thoughts based upon the 'minimal' assumptions above.



Catharsis,

I think that would be a great program, especially if it preserved home resort advantage and found a way for people to keep their deeds and opt-in/out on a periodic basis depending on their travel needs.

We'll know more in a week or so -- and we'll have crushed the Aruba thread by then.

Thanks!


----------



## tombo

scrapngen said:


> My car references were not addressing the room, but the system that surrounds the usage. Clearly a points system (new car) would be different than the current weeks system. (current nice car) Maybe I should say that the interior of the car is identical? LOL
> 
> I don't agree that Marriott is asking you to pay more to "continue to do what you paid to do when you originally purchased a Marriott week." To me, they potentially are asking you to pay more to be able to utilize your current ownership in a different way that is not possible with your original purchase. (new car)
> 
> Now, the scare tactic could be - if you choose not to purchase this enhancement (oooh, there we go, it's not a NEW car, it's money to make your car into a suped-up version!) - there will be problems down the road.  Sure, it costs a little money, but now your gas milage is better, or your engine is more powerful, and/or whatever analogy fits. Keep your car the same if you wish. However, the new suped-up version - I don't know - wins more races? fits into parking places that you currently can't access? OK, let's go with that, since this will allow for a re-sale possible devaluation. Some people won't like the new look of the car. Some will think it is too expensive and not worth being able to get into small parking places. But others will jump at the idea. It's environmentally friendly as it has a smaller footprint. :rofl:  Smaller size allows for better trades as they can be doubled up yet still retain that amazing interior. Gradually, parking places are restriped to only allow the new car to fit. Old car is too big (even though it still has the same interior). Sure, there are still some spaces available, but they are going away as more owners pay to sup-up their cars.  But they will continue to have a perfectly good parking place at THEIR HOME RESORT. Can't take that away or change it according to the deed.
> 
> Disclaimer: I may have had too little sleep or too much Marriottjuana (just a joke, folks!)  today...



I understand I will still have my home resort to stay in with a guaranteed parking spot, but if I currently have parking places at resorts all over the world, and if Marriott is going to extort money for me to be able to continue to have available parking spots around the world, then in essence I have paid a ransom to prevent myself from losing tha ability to do something I can already do. Of course if a new rental car comes with the parking space, free valet parking, free wash and vacuum, then i would be getting something new, but do not sell the new program by threatening to take away my ability to trade for parking spots outside of my home resort. Roll out a new program that people will join on it's merits, not because of threats of loss of use.

The reality of points as Marriott stated it in their poll is that there will be little advantage over the current system and it will come with what we can only assume will be a huge price tag. If you can't book anything less than 7 days in length until SIX months out when 7 days points exchanges are made at the 12 month point, you are kidding yourself to think that good dates at good locations will be available for your long 3 day or 4 day weekend. The other thing they said was that single night stays would be offered ONE month before check in. Give me a break. Call right now and see how many trades are available for June and that is indicative of how many single nights will be available for points members. Call right now and see how many Christmas ski weeks and January ski weeks are available at less than 7 months before check-in, but not yet to the 6 month less than 7 day reservation window, and my guess is zero availability of anywhere you would like to vacation. 

The theory is that you will get to take a long weekend at the beach, at the ski resort, added on to a business trip once the points program is implemented. The reality is that people wil book all the good inventory at the 12 month mark as soon as it is available, just like they do now.

With points you can take a 2 bed room week in theory and get 2 one bed room weeks. First if you own a lock off unit you can already do that. Second once again reality might be different than theory. I am supposed to get 2 bed units for my 2 bed exchange (non lock off), but when I asked for availability in Aruba I was told I could take a one bed room unit because that was all that is available. Points doesn't increase availability. If you want a specific week/resort and you have one million points and there is no availability, you will not get the exchange. Unfortunatelly if the points program does well it will actually DECREASE availability for the weeks owners who don't pay the extortion and convert.

For a reasonable conversion fee most people would convert IMO if they don't require you to put your deed into a Marriott trust and if the annual MF's for points aren't too expensive. However with hungry salesmen paid purely on commission I can only assume it will be a high dollar expensive program designed to line the pockets of Marriott and their sales force while emptying the pockets of owners. We will see soon.


----------



## Asia2000

Does anyone have a price list from Marriott as to what each resort sells for today (from Marriott)?


----------



## Pro

PerryM said:


> This place has gone totally insane without me.


ROTFLMAO !!!


----------



## NJMOM2

Asia2000 said:


> Does anyone have a price list from Marriott as to what each resort sells for today (from Marriott)?



Here is a link of all the MCVI resorts.  It's not a price list but if you select each resort and click on Price on the menu on the right side of the screen you can find the price range for the selected resort.  They update the price regularly.

http://www.marriottvacationclub.com/vacation-resorts/index.html


----------



## jin

brianfox said:


> I have to mention something that concerns points that happened not one hour ago...
> 
> I was on the phone with II Marriott desk.  I got an exchange during Flex (into 1BR Hawaii for a 2BR Marriott Branson), and I was asking the rep if, since the trade occurred in Flex, we could trade a 1BR Branson from a different year instead of the 2BR.  The agent went away to discuss it with her superior and came back to tell me that they could not do the alternate exchange because the 1BR Branson didn't have enough trading power.
> 
> But here's the thing....
> 
> What she told me was that the Marriott Branson did not have enough "POINTS".  I told her that was the first time I ever heard that word uttered by anyone at II.  She went on to say that the Marriott Branson week "was about 1,000 POINTS shy of qualifying for the exchange".  I asked her again what she meant by points, and she was silent for a moment and told me it didn't have the trading power.
> 
> I believe I said to her "I have a feeling I just heard something I wasn't supposed to hear"...
> 
> Don't know if it means anything at all, but remember - this was the Marriott desk of II.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?



Because this unit was in flexchange, you should have been able to trade your 1 br unit from next year --- during flexchange, trading power is irrelevant from my understanding.  I believe the agent was wrong, and I would try and correct this within 24 hours..... Pete


----------



## DanCali

We had almost 7 hours without a post in this thread - incredible!


----------



## dioxide45

brianfox said:


> I have to mention something that concerns points that happened not one hour ago...
> 
> I was on the phone with II Marriott desk.  I got an exchange during Flex (into 1BR Hawaii for a 2BR Marriott Branson), and I was asking the rep if, since the trade occurred in Flex, we could trade a 1BR Branson from a different year instead of the 2BR.  The agent went away to discuss it with her superior and came back to tell me that they could not do the alternate exchange because the 1BR Branson didn't have enough trading power.
> 
> But here's the thing....
> 
> What she told me was that the Marriott Branson did not have enough "POINTS".  I told her that was the first time I ever heard that word uttered by anyone at II.  She went on to say that the Marriott Branson week "was about 1,000 POINTS shy of qualifying for the exchange".  I asked her again what she meant by points, and she was silent for a moment and told me it didn't have the trading power.
> 
> I believe I said to her "I have a feeling I just heard something I wasn't supposed to hear"...
> 
> Don't know if it means anything at all, but remember - this was the Marriott desk of II.
> 
> Any thoughts on this?



The rep was likely just referring to IIs internal data that they use to assign trade power. They have to have some type of rating system (points or otherwise) in order to rank resorts. This is likely what the rep let slip. In fact Perry did post about this several years ago as there was a glitch with their website that allowed some potential insight in to those ratings. IIs system wouldn't have anything to do with what Marriott would be rolling out. Also the people who work at the Marriott desk at II are II employees not Marriott staff. They would have little knowledge in to the internal workings at Marriott.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> We had almost 7 hours without a post in this thread - incredible!




Refreshing is my thought. 

In all honesty, while it's fun to speculate and debate, I'm really looking forward to any announcement Marriott might make in the next couple of weeks. Only 4 more days (it's almost midnight here) until the 16th when they're suppose to shut down for retraining. 

I would anticipate something to be announced shortly thereafter. The problem is, my bet is the only announcement we get is that Marriott will be enhancing out experience but, they'll want to arrange a time to sit down and talk with us. We'll be in Breck the end of this month and there is one of the owners forums I believe on either Monday or Tuesday. I'm hoping I can get adaquate information there as I really don't want to tie up time in a full blown owners update. I prefer to collect information and take my time looking over my options. I don't really want to start any clock by having an "official" meeting to introduce any new "enhancement" to Marriott's product.


----------



## dioxide45

dougp26364 said:


> Refreshing is my thought.
> 
> In all honesty, while it's fun to speculate and debate, I'm really looking forward to any announcement Marriott might make in the next couple of weeks. Only 4 more days (it's almost midnight here) until the 16th when they're suppose to shut down for retraining.
> 
> I would anticipate something to be announced shortly thereafter. The problem is, my bet is the only announcement we get is that Marriott will be enhancing out experience but, they'll want to arrange a time to sit down and talk with us. We'll be in Breck the end of this month and there is one of the owners forums I believe on either Monday or Tuesday. I'm hoping I can get adaquate information there as I really don't want to tie up time in a full blown owners update. I prefer to collect information and take my time looking over my options. I don't really want to start any clock by having an "official" meeting to introduce any new "enhancement" to Marriott's product.



I think this is exactly how Marriott will announce any changes. There won't be mass marketing campaigns, no e-mails, no mailers, no adds, no press release. Just an invitation to attend a presentation to find out about all of the new exciting opportunities. TS developers don't want to give out information and allow people time to mull it over, they want to get you in to a pressure cooker presentation where they can control the information that you see and hear and get you to buy in without really getting a chance to sit down and work the numbers for yourself. I predicted all of this much earlier in this thread, and I am pretty sure that is what will happen (if anything happens at all).


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning gang!!!

12 hours without a post!!!!  Yikes!! Please get back in the game, as we have 600 to go to catch "Aruba".  I do admit that we have truly "beaten this to a pulp", but we just can't let it stop now...

I must admit that "resistance has been futile" and that I have been "assimilated".  I feel somewhat low, as after 2000 posts I have learned from my esteemed  colleagues(TUGGERS), that I own some great weeks to occupy, but exchanging and playing the game are "honors" given to me at the whim of the developers that can be removed or modified at any time, as they are not contractually guaranteed.

To my simple mind, this is the equivalent of going to a fine steak house.  When they bring the 10 oz. filet, I politely inquire about the utensils, bread and water.  I am told that I am contractually only entitled to the beef. The tools and bread are extras that can be given or taken as the proprietor desires...

Perry, please come back and save us!!!


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> good morning gang!!!
> 
> 12 hours without a post!!!!  Yikes!! Please get back in the game, as we have 600 to go to catch "Aruba".  I do admit that we have truly "beaten this to a pulp", but we just can't let it stop now...
> 
> I must admit that "resistance has been futile" and that I have been "assimilated".  I feel somewhat low, as after 2000 posts I have learned from my esteemed  colleagues(TUGGERS), that I own some great weeks to occupy, but exchanging and playing the game are "honors" given to me at the whim of the developers that can be removed or modified at any time, as they are not contractually guaranteed.
> 
> To my simple mind, this is the equivalent of going to a fine steak house.  When they bring the 10 oz. filet, I politely inquire about the utensils, bread and water.  I am told that I am contractually only entitled to the beef. The tools and bread are extras that can be given or taken as the proprietor desires...
> 
> Perry, please come back and save us!!!



I wouldn't say exchanging can be changed at the whim of the developers. At the end of the day, you'll still have your week and you can still exchange that week through Interval or any of the idependent exchange companies willing to take your week. 

If you don't join any new system, nothing really changes. There is the assumption that you won't be able to exchange as easily into other Marriott weeks but, I doubt it will pan out that way. Remember, Marriott will still be contracted to give X number of units to Interval for exchanges. If they don't give Interval any quality weeks, then Marriott points will be worthless for exchanges outside of the Marriott system. That's not a good thing for either Marriott or the owners. So not only will there be those that have stayed in the weeks program exchanging the Interval but, there will be weeks from the points program deposited for exchange into Interval as well and, Interval isn't a points based system. 

In short, the more things change, the more they stay the same.


----------



## John Cerra

*I have resisted posting on this...until now*

Supposed Marriott has gotten tired of the fact that their best customer base for timeshares, that would be existing owners , btw, has gotten tired and bored of the presentations and has either been avoiding them or have become difficult in them. So they cook a scheme that is a marginal variation on what we have but start a lot of viral rumors....that basically force us all back into the meetings to figure out what was going on...


Just saying...


----------



## dougp26364

John Cerra said:


> Supposed Marriott has gotten tired of the fact that their best customer base for timeshares, that would be existing owners , btw, has gotten tired and bored of the presentations and has either been avoiding them or have become difficult in them. So they cook a scheme that is a marginal variation on what we have but start a lot of viral rumors....that basically force us all back into the meetings to figure out what was going on...
> 
> 
> Just saying...



Sure, it's possible. But I still think it's more likely the fact that every other major hotel chain has an internal points based exchange system and Marriott has to compete with that. Points have a lot more flexibilty and are more efficient. No more guessing what you're trade power is either. You know it right up front.


----------



## jarta

doug,   ...   "I wouldn't say exchanging can be changed at the whim of the developers. At the end of the day, you'll still have your week and you can still exchange that week through Interval or any of the idependent exchange companies *willing* to take *your* week."

Not really so!  Just ask any Starwood owner who wants to deposit a specific week reserved by a float week.  II will not take it.  The reservation has to be canceled and returned to the resort's available pool.  Thus, you can no longer use a Starwood float week in season to reserve a 4th of July or Presidents Week or Thanksgiving Week and deposit that exact week in II as a trader.

II now only accepts a deposit by Starwood (not the owner) of an average week for the resort and the unit's float season.  And, I assume - for viewing available II trades  - each average week in each season of each Starwood resort gets an internal II point count (like a points system).  So, you see what the II points allow you to see.

While a Starwood fixed week still can be deposited directly with II, I suspect the II point count for the fixed week in any season is probably the same as for the average float week in the same season (or at least pretty close).

Good II trades are still available, but those who used to reserve a prime Starwood week in a season and deposit it directly report a smaller number of available II trades that open up.

I assume that II and Marriott may be adopting the same system II and Starwood imposed in the master II contract last year.  You guys will just have to wait and see what "points" the Marriott chatter has been about.   ...   eom


----------



## SueDonJ

jarta said:


> doug,   ...   "I wouldn't say exchanging can be changed at the whim of the developers. At the end of the day, you'll still have your week and you can still exchange that week through Interval or any of the idependent exchange companies *willing* to take *your* week."
> 
> Not really so!  Just ask any Starwood owner who wants to deposit a specific week reserved by a float week.  II will not take it.  The reservation has to be canceled and returned to the resort's available pool.  Thus, you can no longer use a Starwood float week in season to reserve a 4th of July or Presidents Week or Thanksgiving Week and deposit that exact week in II as a trader.
> 
> II now only accepts a deposit by Starwood (not the owner) of an average week for the resort and the unit's float season.  And, I assume - for viewing available II trades  - each average week in each season of each Starwood resort gets an internal II point count (like a points system).  So, you see what the II points allow you to see.
> 
> While a Starwood fixed week still can be deposited directly with II, I suspect the II point count for the fixed week in any season is probably the same as for the average float week in the same season (or at least pretty close).
> 
> Good II trades are still available, but those who used to reserve a prime Starwood week in a season and deposit it directly report a smaller number of available II trades that open up.
> 
> I assume that II and Marriott may be adopting the same system II and Starwood imposed in the master II contract last year.  You guys will just have to wait and see what "points" the Marriott chatter has been about.   ...   eom



I think the trade-off for owners not being able to choose the high-demand weeks within a float season for their maximum trade value with an exchange, is that more owners will be able to actually occupy those highest-demand weeks.  Not a bad trade-off IMO.

Since last year's changes, is Starwood skimming those highest-demand weeks when exchanges are requested in order to offer them as rentals?  That's a concern with some Marriott owners.


----------



## timeos2

*If II didn't allow it then it couldn't happen*



SueDonJ said:


> I think the trade-off for owners not being able to choose the high-demand weeks within a float season for their maximum trade value with an exchange, is that more owners will be able to actually occupy those highest-demand weeks.  Not a bad trade-off IMO.
> 
> Since last year's changes, is Starwood skimming those highest-demand weeks when exchanges are requested in order to offer them as rentals?  That's a concern with some Marriott owners.



But realize the whole thing is a plot between II & Starwood, as II also has  done with others who wish to play games with ownership rights such as Wastegate, and nothing to do with what you legally purchased and were deeded. If not for II willingness to go along, as RCI refuses to do at Wastegate, then the plan wouldn't work. The real problems are with II & Starwood not the value or what you purchased as your ownership time. 

As Starwood continues to hold n to management when they should be gone & turned over to owner control this is just one of many problems likely to rear its ugly head from that unholy setup.  II is always way too happy to go in with the developer(s) and push paying member owners to the bottom of the pile. That's one of many reasons I find II an unacceptable option for exchange.


----------



## potchak

dougp26364 said:


> It's just their (Interval's) internal grading system for exchanges. Nothing more, nothing less.



But if this is the case, why does it matter during flexchange when anything goes?

also, I would like to add my 2 cents regarding the possible new program by Marriott. I personally do not feel that Marriott is out to screw their owners. They are realizing they are losing sales because points programs are more flexible than weeks based systems. So I believe they will put out a good program. Granted they will make more money this way as well bringing the exchanges in internally, but whether I pay Marriott or II, I will still be paying the money to someone. 

I truly honestly believe that Marriott is going to put out a fair and equitable program otherwise, they will not have people join it. What they will need to do is make sure the fees are not over the top - if they are, people will not join and it will defeat the purpose. I for one will not pay $3750 for 3 yrs for "priority" that is insane. Might I pay a one time fee of $400 to buy into the program- maybe, but I might not do it if it is per week. I am not even sure if I would want to pay extra for my resale week. I think that is all salesman fluff to scare us. I think all resale weeks will be grandfathered in. Will they offer MR points to convince us, maybe, but we shall see.

I am keeping my fingers crossed, but I do not think we (my DH and I) will fair well with 2 Manor club weeks, so we will have to evaluate everything. If it doesn't work for us, we will stick to reserving a good week and exchanging via II.


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> I must admit that "resistance has been futile" and that I have been "assimilated".  I feel somewhat low, as after 2000 posts I have learned from my esteemed  colleagues(TUGGERS), that I own some great weeks to occupy, but exchanging and playing the game are "honors" given to me at the whim of the developers that can be removed or modified at any time, as they are not contractually guaranteed.
> 
> To my simple mind, this is the equivalent of going to a fine steak house.  When they bring the 10 oz. filet, I politely inquire about the utensils, bread and water.  I am told that I am contractually only entitled to the beef. The tools and bread are extras that can be given or taken as the proprietor desires...
> 
> Perry, please come back and save us!!!


You truly didn't know that going in?



potchak said:


> But if this is the case, why does it matter during flexchange when anything goes?


I don't think it's quite that simple.  While much of the trade power issue goes away during flexchange, I don't think it all does, esp early in the 60 day window.  Generally Marriott's are still held for 3 days for other Marriott's and resort quality comparisons continue in large part.


----------



## jarta

SueDonJ,

"I think the trade-off for owners not being able to choose the high-demand weeks within a float season for their maximum trade value with an exchange, is that more owners will be able to actually occupy those highest-demand weeks. Not a bad trade-off IMO."

(I think it is a good trade off, too.  I am in the definite minority on the TUG Starwood board.  Most Starwood TUG members are often Starwood traders, and less often Starwood users.)

"Since last year's changes, is Starwood skimming those highest-demand weeks when exchanges are requested in order to offer them as rentals? That's a concern with some Marriott owners."

(Don't know if Starwood is skimming or owners are now gobbling up those prime weeks and actually using them to go to the resort - rather than having them given away to non-owners.  I have seen allegations, but no proof that Starwood is skimming.  BTW, Starwood keeps about 10% of the units and can rent them out as it wishes.  I'm sure Starwood did not keep the dog weeks for its own rental pool.

As for concerns, what about the extremely long Marriott preference period in II?  That would concern any non-Marriott person who wanted to trade into Marriott using II now.  Best advice:  buy where you want to go in the season you want to be there - and hope for the best in trading.  If you work at it, you can still do better with with a Starwood lock-off week using the external II trading system than the internal Starwood trading system.   )


----------



## kedler

*June 17th*

I've been reading all the posts in this thread and I have enjoyed combination of humor, conjecture, and information. I'm not sure where the date of June 17, 2010 originated; however, when my son was looking up information on the MVCI website about Frenchman's Cove he clicked on "ownership specials" and noticed that they all end on June 17, 2010. I guess we will all know in a few days whether this change is anything positive but as an owner of two resale weeks and one developer EOY it doesn't sound like I will be ...


----------



## puckmanfl

Dean...

I am not a professional "timesharer" with my own web page dedicated to the business.   I purchased an expensive (spare me the developer v resale debate) product from a well respected name in the industry(and expect the integrity and service that comes with it). I went through the entire "owners manual" and learned the rules of the game as they were presented to me for both using my unit and exchanging!!!  Despite initial cynicism, I have been a very happy owner as the product has performed over the past 6 years has performed well within the parameters and rules presented to me...

Call me naive, but I never imagined that the complete paradigm could change and that I would be asked to fork up more $$$ to change it.  Points has a lot of benefits and may be a great change. I have always realized that exchanging is subject to the whims of inventory and other owner deposits.  I realize I can't get a unit for exchange without it first being deposited by another owner (person or company/MVCI).  

The problem now is that the exchange inventory is going to be divided into two separate pools (weeks/points) with the poor owner being asked to make a choice without knowing what the others are doing.  Hypothetically, if I remain in weeks and trade with II and every other owner converts, I am doomed with respect to internal trades.  The converse applies.  

Obviously, I am not an attorney but I do believe the "spirit" if not the "letter" of the contract/transaction is being violated here. I am also going to be asked to fork out "coin" to help them do this. 400,000 owners purchased in this system.  The polls on this website state that about 85% are extremely satisfied or satisfied with this system.  All of them had the option of purchasing into as system described by jon as " a well run point system" but chose not to.

I am wondering how the group would feel if MVCI suddenly gave the owners of 3 weeks the opportunity to reserve home units 14 months in advance, leaving the 2 week owners to scramble for leftovers at 13 months.  The "letter" of the contract for the 2 week owners is not violated but the "spirit" is as they have less inventory...

I am quite comfortable occupying my units or playing the game, but splitting the game into two boards and asking the players to sit at different tables does appear to be a "mess"...


----------



## dioxide45

kedler said:


> I've been reading all the posts in this thread and I have enjoyed combination of humor, conjecture, and information. I'm not sure where the date of June 17, 2010 originated; however, when my son was looking up information on the MVCI website about Frenchman's Cove he clicked on "ownership specials" and noticed that they all end on June 17, 2010. I guess we will all know in a few days whether this change is anything positive but as an owner of two resale weeks and one developer EOY it doesn't sound like I will be ...



It was mentioned that all MVCI sales offices would close on the 18th of June I think, for three days. The 17th date for the end of their anniversary special came from Marriott. It could be their being closed for training is nothing more than to train on the new offers. Who knows. They have never closed in the past to train on a new sales marketing campaign. Of course the closing for three days has come from sales staff only, so who knows how true that really is. It could just be one day of training and then closed for the weekend.

If anything happens it could be completely unrelated to an internal exchange program and related to another angst of Marriott direct purchasers, that being the exchange for MR points option.

Perhaps Marriott is looking for enhancements to that. Perhaps having the points allotted based on some type of index (rental prices, MF, etc). In the past Marriott has enhanced this at certain resorts, they moved from a EOY trade for points to an EY. They then provided existing owners that could only trade for points EOY buy up to the EY trade option. There was a cost for this. I remember is happening at Legends Edge so they could sellout stale inventory. Perhaps this would be a new scheme to sell their stale inventory at all other resorts.

Everything is guesses at this point. No one knows, when and if all is said and done we probably won't have any firm answers. My guess is that it won't be as drastic as many predicted, but it will be for only one's benefit, that being Marriott.


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Dean...
> 
> I am not a professional "timesharer" with my own web page dedicated to the business.   I purchased an expensive (spare me the developer v resale debate) product from a well respected name in the industry(and expect the integrity and service that comes with it). I went through the entire "owners manual" and learned the rules of the game as they were presented to me for both using my unit and exchanging!!!  Despite initial cynicism, I have been a very happy owner as the product has performed over the past 6 years has performed well within the parameters and rules presented to me...
> 
> Call me naive, but I never imagined that the complete paradigm could change and that I would be asked to fork up more $$$ to change it.  Points has a lot of benefits and may be a great change. I have always realized that exchanging is subject to the whims of inventory and other owner deposits.  I realize I can't get a unit for exchange without it first being deposited by another owner (person or company/MVCI).
> 
> The problem now is that the exchange inventory is going to be divided into two separate pools (weeks/points) with the poor owner being asked to make a choice without knowing what the others are doing.  Hypothetically, if I remain in weeks and trade with II and every other owner converts, I am doomed with respect to internal trades.  The converse applies.
> 
> Obviously, I am not an attorney but I do believe the "spirit" if not the "letter" of the contract/transaction is being violated here. I am also going to be asked to fork out "coin" to help them do this. 400,000 owners purchased in this system.  The polls on this website state that about 85% are extremely satisfied or satisfied with this system.  All of them had the option of purchasing into as system described by jon as " a well run point system" but chose not to.
> 
> I am wondering how the group would feel if MVCI suddenly gave the owners of 3 weeks the opportunity to reserve home units 14 months in advance, leaving the 2 week owners to scramble for leftovers at 13 months.  The "letter" of the contract for the 2 week owners is not violated but the "spirit" is as they have less inventory...
> 
> I am quite comfortable occupying my units or playing the game, but splitting the game into two boards and asking the players to sit at different tables does appear to be a "mess"...


I think anyone buying a timeshare should realize that not only CAN things change, but they WILL change over time.  You're apparently learning that lesson the hard way or at least stressing over it more than I believe you need to.  I don't see anything contractual or nearly so being altered here, there is NOTHING contractual about exchanging at all, I believe your documents will actually say this specifically..  You bought a week at a resort, nothing more and nothing less.  As for more weeks being able to reserve earlier, that's essentially how Bluegreen does it and this was a change from previously.  If that happens you go buy another week or you take your chances.  This is exactly what happened when the 13 month window came into being, my response, go buy another week.  Things change all the time in Timesharing.  DVC changes from II to RCI, Mayan resorts increase their transfer fee to as much as the weeks are worth, RCI creates a points program, Marriott drops 9 resorts (so far), the 13 month reservation rule comes into being, we could go on.  I'm not sure that this is a complete paradigm shift and Marriott  has been rumored to be making a significant change for a number of years, possibly before you first became a member.  In my view this is a minor to middle sized shift at best, making reasonable assumptions of course.  Yes, I think you were naive to make the assumptions that you have apparently made, we've all been there at one time or another.  One thing I've learned in timesharing is that things WILL change and that you often have to invest money to put yourself in a better position than the next person.  

I don't consider myself a professional, heck I don't even update my site but about once or twice a year, but if that's how you want to think of it, so be it.


----------



## dioxide45

The split inventory pools really shouldn't be an issue unless Marriott does away with the II priority. If a deeded owner deposits for exchange they will be competing only against other deeded owners for exchange. Those points owners can only trade for Marriott weeks within an internal system. If they deposit their week, it goes in to II and the end sum is still the same. The problem would happen if Marriott uses all unsold inventory for a points system. They could do this but they will end up with a lot of empty units as there wouldn't be enough people to book in to those weeks. They will have no choice but to cough those weeks up to II to unload.


----------



## puckmanfl

Dioxide

Please help!!!  From one GV owner to another!!!  Let's assume (I know how dangerous it is) that new roll out is as the "survey" described.  You are asked to convert to points for a three year term with loss of your home resort advantage (unless you fork over a fee for a fixed week).  You can also pay some $$$ for a priority in a group of results.  You can reverse in three years!!  What will you do?  I have thought about it, and I am completely bamboozled!!!

I don't really care if the game changes, just don't like blind decisions!!!!

I have had 6 of the best timesharing years ever, with great family vacations that have been the envy of my friends!!!  Yes, I know I paid too much but I just want to continued good use of my product!!  I am really not a naive as I play on the thread,just want to beat the Aruba thread!!!


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> The problem would happen if Marriott uses all unsold inventory for a points system. They could do this but they will end up with a lot of empty units as there wouldn't be enough people to book in to those weeks. They will have no choice but to cough those weeks up to II to unload.



Doesn't such inventory end up as Getaways? If it goes in the exchange pool, how would Marriott get paid (they do owe MFs on the weeks they own)?


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> Doesn't such inventory end up as Getaways? If it goes in the exchange pool, how would Marriott get paid (they do owe MFs on the weeks they own)?



Marriott doesn't pay MF on unsold units, they offere a guaranty instead. Many people exchange in to developer deposited weeks, whether they be unreserved units or Marriott owned. Spacebanks happen often.


----------



## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> The split inventory pools really shouldn't be an issue unless Marriott does away with the II priority. If a deeded owner deposits for exchange they will be competing only against other deeded owners for exchange. Those points owners can only trade for Marriott weeks within an internal system. If they deposit their week, it goes in to II and the end sum is still the same. The problem would happen if Marriott uses all unsold inventory for a points system. They could do this but they will end up with a lot of empty units as there wouldn't be enough people to book in to those weeks. They will have no choice but to cough those weeks up to II to unload.


Actually given that the other II limitations of trade power and resort quality, it's likely that those trading a given week with II would end up BETTER off in the new system IF the internal trading preference remains.  That's because it's likely that those that do not convert will likely consist of a larger group of desirable weeks/resorts and IF the other end (say Bronze) also tends not to convert, it won't affect choices much.  Even if the II deposits that come from points get lumped in, as they likely would, it's still at worst a zero sum to improvement.  It's also possible, if not likely, that the trade power for many options will actually improve due to smaller numbers.  I do expect the internal trading preference to go away at some point based on my assumptions of how a new system is likely to work but we will see.  In part it depends on how integrated any points system is with II and whether they remain as individual members vs a Marriott corporate membership.  

Even if a new system comes out this weekend, it's likely to take weeks to months to sort out the ins and outs enough to really know how to approach it.  While I know some expect a quick hit or miss conversion option, I doubt it'll be that quick, maybe a few months at worst.  



puckmanfl said:


> I have had 6 of the best timesharing years ever, with great family vacations that have been the envy of my friends!!!  Yes, I know I paid too much but I just want to continued good use of my product!!  I am really not a naive as I play on the thread,just want to beat the Aruba thread!!!


Given the current prices, didn't we all pay too much, LOL.  Glad to hear your playing the devils advocate somewhat, I was worried about you there for a bit.  Timeshares have been great for me, both in terms of enjoyment but as a hobby.  Keeps me out of trouble, at least somewhat.  To be honest, I doubt they save us money but they allow us to do things that we couldn't do otherwise.  For example, we'll be at HH in a couple of weeks with four 2 BR units.  Now about every year we get accommodation and invite family until all is full, our treat.  It's our way of ensuring we get together periodically and also a way to give back since we can.



dioxide45 said:


> Marriott doesn't pay MF on unsold units, they offere a guaranty instead. Many people exchange in to developer deposited weeks, whether they be unreserved units or Marriott owned. Spacebanks happen often.


That's not my understanding.  I thought the developer guarantee only gave them free use of certain commercial space and not unsold units.


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening!!!

Every instinct tells me that MVCI is going to deposit/place ALL of its unsold inventory in the points pool.  They have to get the "word out on the street" that the points game is the "only way to go"!  How else can they promote the program (as they will only be selling points)...  They are gong to make it as difficult as possible (within legal limits) to internally exchange the old fashioned way...

The II external exchange option still exists for non converts and converters that deposit their points with II.  About 1500 posts ago, I asked fellow Tuggers for their collective experience in EXTERNAL exchanges outside the MVCI system using II.  Did not see many replies.  I would guess that MVCI owners don't get great deals externally, as the other developers also have INTERNAL priority programs...  Before the decision is made, would not mind having some info on this!!


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> good evening!!!
> 
> Every instinct tells me that MVCI is going to deposit/place ALL of its unsold inventory in the points pool.  They have to get the "word out on the street" that the points game is the "only way to go"!  How else can they promote the program (as they will only be selling points)...  They are gong to make it as difficult as possible (within legal limits) to internally exchange the old fashioned way...
> 
> The II external exchange option still exists for non converts and converters that deposit their points with II.  About 1500 posts ago, I asked fellow Tuggers for their collective experience in EXTERNAL exchanges outside the MVCI system using II.  Did not see many replies.  I would guess that MVCI owners don't get great deals externally, as the other developers also have INTERNAL priority programs...  Before the decision is made, would not mind having some info on this!!


I think it's guaranteed they'll place all weeks in a points program for any resort they attempt to convert to points, which likely will not be all of them (? HP, SP, Vail).  In doing so they may be able to "convert" those points to high demand weeks by combining points from multiple lower demand weeks.  It really depends on how they structure the system.  

As for external exchanges, I bought my weeks to use, rent them when I don't, and to exchange Marriott to Marriott.  I use other deposits for non Marriott exchanges.  Your lack of responses previously is likely an indication that many take a similar approach.


----------



## dioxide45

Dean said:


> That's not my understanding.  I thought the developer guarantee only gave them free use of certain commercial space and not unsold units.



This TUG article  explains the how guarantee works, at least in Florida.


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening!!

That is why this is so unnerving!! I also have ZERO interest in External Exchanges.  I think at the end of the day I am going to be a converter.  I wonder if you will be able to  convert some weeks without others?  It would probably make sense to convert my 3 bedroom GV weeks as I very rarely need 3 bedrooms and I can't imagine it would be difficult getting back into Orlando with ANY Internal Exchange program.  Not so sure about the Hawaii weeks, might want to keep and use them (and keep home field advantage) as getting like/like exchanges may prove dicey as points make the demand for primo weeks increase (with adding/borrowing and banking) an option...

I do believe that points will be great for short stays in off season joints.  I am convinced that a May 4 day HHI stay will be doable.  I am not as optimistic for like/like plat exchanges.  Waiohai for ski week etc!!!


----------



## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> This TUG article  explains the how guarantee works, at least in Florida.


Thanks for the link.


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> good evening!!
> 
> That is why this is so unnerving!! I also have ZERO interest in External Exchanges.  I think at the end of the day I am going to be a converter.  I wonder if you will be able to  convert some weeks without others?  It would probably make sense to convert my 3 bedroom GV weeks as I very rarely need 3 bedrooms and I can't imagine it would be difficult getting back into Orlando with ANY Internal Exchange program.  Not so sure about the Hawaii weeks, might want to keep and use them (and keep home field advantage) as getting like/like exchanges may prove dicey as points make the demand for primo weeks increase (with adding/borrowing and banking) an option...
> 
> I do believe that points will be great for short stays in off season joints.  I am convinced that a May 4 day HHI stay will be doable.  I am not as optimistic for like/like plat exchanges.  Waiohai for ski week etc!!!


I'm not sure you're going to like your choices with the 3 BR as much as you might think but time will tell.  I would assume you could convert some but not all but the question is what is the best option.  IF they go to a trust system with a base fee then so much per point on top of that, you'll want all of your weeks in one points basket from a fee standpoint.  Even more so for those that only own Marriott as there might be in II membership included.  My view on such a situation is you'll have more flexibility from a use standpoint sat a potentially higher cost.  I'm actually more interested in figuring out how any such points system will interact with II than anything else.


----------



## DanCali

puckmanfl said:


> I think at the end of the day I am going to be a converter.



Whoa... you haven't even seen the program rules yet. At least let the Marriott salespeople work for their commission.

For what it's worth, Starwood has been a points program almost from the very beginning. But most resale owners (unless they own at one of the 5 mandatory resorts) are forced to exchange via II. On top of that, Starwood controls the weeks that go into II (reservations are canceled, Starwood chooses some unreserved week to deposit, and the owner gets some average trading power of the season used) so high demand weeks are less likely to make it to II and more likely to stay within the points system. Despite all that, some tuggers report they've gotten great exchanges through II even in high season. 

I don't think Marriott will do what Starwood did with respect to II. Starwood could do that because few owners were using II to begin with (they had a points system), but with Marriott owners have been depositing their reserved weeks for two decades. Changing that is likely to cause a rebellion, no matter how they spin it...

I suggest taking wait and see approach. I for one plan to ignore any incentives they give and judge the program on its own merits. Things will be much clearer after 12-18 months, once others who believe the program will work for them report their experiences. My prior is that my NCV Platinum weeks will be worth more outside the points system than inside it either for use, exchanges via II, or - if all else fails - renting out...


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> good evening!!
> 
> That is why this is so unnerving!! I also have ZERO interest in External Exchanges.  I think at the end of the day I am going to be a converter.  I wonder if you will be able to  convert some weeks without others?  It would probably make sense to convert my 3 bedroom GV weeks as I very rarely need 3 bedrooms and I can't imagine it would be difficult getting back into Orlando with ANY Internal Exchange program.  Not so sure about the Hawaii weeks, might want to keep and use them (and keep home field advantage) as getting like/like exchanges may prove dicey as points make the demand for primo weeks increase (with adding/borrowing and banking) an option...
> 
> I do believe that points will be great for short stays in off season joints.  I am convinced that a May 4 day HHI stay will be doable.  I am not as optimistic for like/like plat exchanges.  Waiohai for ski week etc!!!



No one says that, if you stay in the weeks program, that you won't have the same internal exchange benefits you've always enjoyed. Remember, just because you have no desire for external exchanges, other Marriott owners will still use their points for external exchanges and those weeks, along with all the other Marriott weeks owners, will end up in the weeks exchange program that is Interval. 

It's going to take a few years to see how this really shakes out but, I know that with DRI, I can do internal exchanges but I can also see many of those resorts by going through Interval's weeks based system. With Marriott I look for it to be the same way. Marriott will have to have a contract to deposit so many weeks for exchange into Interval's weeks based exchange system or, Marriott points will have absolutely NO value with Interval. I don't see Marriott allowing that to happen.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> Whoa... you haven't even seen the program rules yet. At least let the Marriott salespeople work for their commission......./.



Trust me, they'll still be working for their comission. While the conversion may attract more people to the table, the salesman isn't going to make much, if anything, on the conversion itself. They'll have to sell something in order to make something. 

In my case, I know something about how points based sytems can work. I also know that I've looked at trust based ownerships and I haven't seen one I really think holds value for me. 

So I can sit here and say something similar. If it's a straight overlay system, I'll probably be an easy convert. If it's a trust based ownership it will be a lot tougher.


----------



## taffy19

puckmanfl said:


> good evening!!!
> 
> *Every instinct tells me that MVCI is going to deposit/place ALL of its unsold inventory in the points pool.* They have to get the "word out on the street" that the points game is the "only way to go"! How else can they promote the program (as they will only be selling points)... They are gong to make it as difficult as possible (within legal limits) to internally exchange the old fashioned way...
> 
> The II external exchange option still exists for non converts and converters that deposit their points with II. About 1500 posts ago, I asked fellow Tuggers for their collective experience in EXTERNAL exchanges outside the MVCI system using II. Did not see many replies. I would guess that MVCI owners don't get great deals externally, as the other developers also have INTERNAL priority programs... Before the decision is made, would not mind having some info on this!!


This is how I understood it too. Once that date arrives, everything left over is going to be deposited in the point system.

At the Maui Ocean Club, they have fixed weeks/units and floating weeks/units. The last two times, in March, they were mainly selling the floating weeks at the MMO and MM1 and the fixed week/units were hardly even mentioned unless you brought it up.

I spoke with a couple, who had done a tour this March, and they were upset that this wasn't mentioned to them at all as they would have been interested in doing an upgrade from a floating week/unit to a fixed week/unit. It was too late for them to go back and ask about it because they were checking out and had a flight to catch.

I understand from the contract that we can change from fixed to a floating week/unit but didn't understand why they had put this clause in the contract. It may have been because they were planning the conversion long before they started building the two new towers and it may make the conversion easier to do.

What doesn't make sense to me is that I was told that no more deeded weeks were sold after June 20 but the official roll-out date of the new program would be sometime in the fall. What would they be doing the few months in between unless they are trying to convert the current owners and put all their efforts in that. Just a thought.  

I hope that we don't have to wait too much long for an announcement as all the rumors are driving me crazy.


----------



## m61376

iconnections said:


> What doesn't make sense to me is that I was told that no more deeded weeks were sold after June 20 but the official roll-out date of the new program would be sometime in the fall. What would they be doing the few months in between unless they are trying to convert the current owners and put all their efforts in that. Just a thought.
> 
> I hope that we don't have to wait too much long for an announcement as all the rumors are driving me crazy.


If anything, I would think they'd begin selling points immediately and wait to try to convert current owners until they get the ball rolling. I can't imagine they'd give up the thousands of potential customers who are summer travelers.


----------



## taffy19

Me not either but that is what someone told me. We will just have to wait and see. What you wrote makes more sense.

PS. I wonder now if I understood him wrong and that is what he meant. I don't really know but something is rolling out in the fall?


----------



## jin

dioxide45 said:


> The split inventory pools really shouldn't be an issue unless Marriott does away with the II priority. If a deeded owner deposits for exchange they will be competing only against other deeded owners for exchange. Those points owners can only trade for Marriott weeks within an internal system. If they deposit their week, it goes in to II and the end sum is still the same. The problem would happen if Marriott uses all unsold inventory for a points system. They could do this but they will end up with a lot of empty units as there wouldn't be enough people to book in to those weeks. They will have no choice but to cough those weeks up to II to unload.



My main concern with split inventory is whether Marriott gets PREFERENCE in the points program for reserving the best weeks in each season.  Pete


----------



## taffy19

dioxide45 said:


> The split inventory pools really shouldn't be an issue unless Marriott does away with the II priority. If a deeded owner deposits for exchange they will be competing only against other deeded owners for exchange. Those points owners can only trade for Marriott weeks within an internal system. If they deposit their week, it goes in to II and the end sum is still the same. The problem would happen if Marriott uses all unsold inventory for a points system. They could do this but they will end up with a lot of empty units as there wouldn't be enough people to book in to those weeks. They will have no choice but to cough those weeks up to II to unload.


Don't you believe that some of these units aren't going to be occupied by the people who trade in their MRPs for a condo at one of the resorts rather than staying in a hotel room if the two systems are going to be combined which I believe they are?


----------



## PerryM

*Pork and beans now being served by Marriott...*

A good friend of mine, yes I have one, called Marriott Reservations yesterday and just asked the rep about the new Points system.  The rep was impressed that my friend knew of the new system but could not comment and indicated that they were fully trained on the new system.

My friend, and he's not one of my imaginary friends either, told the rep that he just wanted to call in, year after year, and reserve his weeks at the Marriott where he owns in the seasons he owns - the rep said that he would be still able to do this.

Oh joy...

P.S.
This week should be fun since rumors like this should now be oozing from Marriott's big mouth.  Come on Marriott for 4 years you've been dying to spill the beans - well spill away.  Those beans will go good with all the pork you timeshare developers ooze too...


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> A good friend of mine, yes I have one, called Marriott Reservations yesterday and just asked the rep about the new Points system.  The rep was impressed that my friend knew of the new system but could not comment and indicated that they were fully trained on the new system.
> 
> My friend, yes and he's not one of my imaginary friends, told the rep that he just wanted to call in, year after year, and reserve his weeks at the Marriott where he owns in the seasons he owns - the rep said that he would be still able to do this.
> 
> Oh joy...



So some people have been worried for nothing then?


----------



## PerryM

*This is all boring...*



dougp26364 said:


> So some people have been worried for nothing then?



Not at all - as many have been droning away here say - "they can't take that fundamental ability away from us".

Anything else is at the whim of the developer apparently.

That would be now and in the future.

So unlike buying a condo, where the rules are grounded in reality, timeshares are basically just whims of corporations that get bored easily.

I don't think Marriott realizes that the dreams and hopes they sold didn't get boring to the owners but to Marriott's stockholders.  Hopefully Marriott will get a taste of what it means to screw around with all those dreams they sold for 20+ years especially in this climate where the very existence of our way of life is now in doubt.


----------



## PerryM

*Marriott - are you insane?*

Gold is an excellent barometer of what in the world is going on with the world.

As a general rule the more uncertain, afraid, scared out of our minds, we become the higher the price of gold.

Well Marriott what does this tell you?





This is the spot price of gold for about as long as you've been hawking timeshares.​
This tells me one thing - the world is scared out of its mind.

Or, the world is really worried about your timeshares...


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Not at all - as many have been droning away here say - "they can't take that fundamental ability away from us".
> 
> Anything else is at the whim of the developer apparently.
> 
> That would be now and in the future.
> 
> So unlike buying a condo, where the rules are grounded in reality, timeshares are basically just whims of corporations that get bored easily.
> 
> I don't think Marriott realizes that the dreams and hopes they sold didn't get boring to the owners but to Marriott's stockholders.  Hopefully Marriott will get a taste of what it means to screw around with all those dreams they sold for 20+ years especially in this climate where the very existence of our way of life is now in doubt.



Spoken like someone who would be better off renting than owning.


----------



## PerryM

*What's worse than 1929 why 2011 of course...*



dougp26364 said:


> Spoken like someone who would be better off renting than owning.



I'm wondering if timeshares haven't peaked for the foreseeable future.

I guess I read things that most folks don't - like a leading economist predicting the total implosion of the US economy in 2011.  Here's the actual WSJ article.

Me, I'm just looking at what's happening around us and thinking Marriott could not have picked a worse time to chuck weeks and try something else.  Even 1929 - 1933 sounds tame compared to the mess the world has gotten itself into.

You know Marriott, I was just kidding about the gold chart and folks not liking your timeshare weeks and want to move to points - it was just a joke.....


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I'm wondering if timeshares haven't peaked for the foreseeable future.
> 
> I guess I read things that most folks don't - like a leading economist predicting the total implosion of the US economy in 2011.  Here's the actual WSJ article.
> 
> Me, I'm just looking at what's happening around us and thinking Marriott could not have picked a worse time to chuck weeks and try something else.  Even 1929 - 1933 sounds tame compared to the mess the world has gotten itself into.
> 
> You know Marriott, I was just kidding about the gold chart and folks not liking your timeshare weeks and want to move to points - it was just a joke.....



I stopped listening to economic forcasts years ago. When it's good, it's easy. When it's bad it's all doom and gloom. The past might be a barometer but it's not always a good method for prediction. Besides, the Myan's have predicted that the world will end Dec. 21, 2012. If worse were to come to worse I think I've got enough in the bank to make it until then. 

As for Marriott's timing, I think it's just the opposite. There's no better time to introduce a new system than now. It may give sales a needed spark. If nothing else it's going to get current owners onto the sales floor without the necessary bribe. It gives sales staff a new angle and current owners another reason to buy additional vacation time. 

I guess I'm more of a glass half full sort of person where you're more the glass is empty and rivers run dry type.


----------



## PerryM

*Can companies ask for "Do overs"?*



dougp26364 said:


> I stopped listening to economic forcasts years ago. When it's good, it's easy. When it's bad it's all doom and gloom. The past might be a barometer but it's not always a good method for prediction.
> 
> As for Marriott's timing, I think it's just the opposite. There's no better time to introduce a new system than now. It may give sales a needed spark. If nothing else it's going to get current owners onto the sales floor without the necessary bribe. It gives sales staff a new angle and current owners another reason to buy additional vacation time.
> 
> I guess I'm more of a glass half full sort of person where you're more the glass is empty and rivers run dry type.



If the new system was just a "floating exchange system" that floated above the 20+ year old week based systems that would not be bad.

But if Marriott heads down the trust based Points system and the economy falls apart in a year they can't ask for a "do over", they are betting MVCI on this and putting 400,000 owners at risk.

Once you convert your week to Points in a trust you climb in bed with Marriott and your enjoyment of your timeshare is directly linked to their health.

At Summit Watch, Marriott could go belly up and we would find someone else to clean the toilets.

Once deeds enter that deed trust its a whole different ball game where just 1-strike out means a lot of trouble for us and the other resorts.


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> I stopped listening to economic forcasts years ago. When it's good, it's easy. When it's bad it's all doom and gloom. The past might be a barometer but it's not always a good method for prediction. Besides, the Myan's have predicted that the world will end Dec. 21, 2012. If worse were to come to worse I think I've got enough in the bank to make it until then.
> 
> As for Marriott's timing, I think it's just the opposite. There's no better time to introduce a new system than now. It may give sales a needed spark. If nothing else it's going to get current owners onto the sales floor without the necessary bribe. It gives sales staff a new angle and current owners another reason to buy additional vacation time.
> 
> I guess I'm more of a glass half full sort of person where you're more the glass is empty and rivers run dry type.



I agree with your first paragraph and generally have the same life viewpoint as your third, but can't disagree more with your second. With all the instability that has trickled down into everyone's life- no one is immune form the economic crisis or its trickle down effects- why introduce something that will create more uncertainty? People who are barely making ends meet- or even those of us who are more fortunate but who, nevertheless, are impacted by the trickle down effects (others misfortunes translate into a smaller client base. regardless of the industry or profession) are going to be less likely to increase discretionary expenditures. Instead of being a purchase enticement I think in these time having one's  arm twisted is apt to be met with resentment. 

When you visit your resorts, do you get the sense that people are traveling like they used to? I know I don't. Neighboring hotels are crying for business and restaurants, once reservations only, are half empty at times. Timeshares are still full, because they are largely prepaid vacations (and the MF's are obligatory anyway) but take-out and grilling is clearly more prevalent. Last year there was an interesting article in one of the Hawaii papers- even unemployed owners were visiting because their trip had already been paid for (including airfare pre-purchased) so they might as well be unemployed in Hawaii- but they were cutting back on their vacation spending wherever possible. 

So they may visit the sales office to get updates, but reaching for their checkbooks is a whole different matter.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> I agree with your first paragraph and generally have the same life viewpoint as your third, but can't disagree more with your second. With all the instability that has trickled down into everyone's life- no one is immune form the economic crisis or its trickle down effects- why introduce something that will create more uncertainty? People who are barely making ends meet- or even those of us who are more fortunate but who, nevertheless, are impacted by the trickle down effects (others misfortunes translate into a smaller client base. regardless of the industry or profession) are going to be less likely to increase discretionary expenditures. Instead of being a purchase enticement I think in these time having one's  arm twisted is apt to be met with resentment.
> 
> When you visit your resorts, do you get the sense that people are traveling like they used to? I know I don't. Neighboring hotels are crying for business and restaurants, once reservations only, are half empty at times. Timeshares are still full, because they are largely prepaid vacations (and the MF's are obligatory anyway) but take-out and grilling is clearly more prevalent. Last year there was an interesting article in one of the Hawaii papers- even unemployed owners were visiting because their trip had already been paid for (including airfare pre-purchased) so they might as well be unemployed in Hawaii- but they were cutting back on their vacation spending wherever possible.
> 
> So they may visit the sales office to get updates, but reaching for their checkbooks is a whole different matter.



My first real job was in sales back in 1981 when the economy was in a slump. I believe unemployment was around 10%. The district that led sales that year was in PA where the steel industry had taken a major hit and unemployment was closer to 30%. When they asked the district manager how they led the company that year he said it was simple, they concentrated their efforts on the 70% that were still working. 

If you wait until the economy turns around, the economy will never turn around. Sometimes one has to take the bull by the horns and go for it. If sales are slumping, take another path. Marriott is taking another path. In sales, it pays to never make the mistake of assuming everyone isn't spending money. That's when your business fails.

In the end, it doesn't matter what any of us might think. Marriott has choosen this time to go ahead with their plan. Considering their track record for running a business, something tells me they have more on the ball than the average TUG poster.


----------



## PerryM

*Warning: slow down - speeders will be fined*



dougp26364 said:


> My first real job was in sales back in 1981 when the economy was in a slump. I believe unemployment was around 10%. The district that led sales that year was in PA where the steel industry had taken a major hit and unemployment was closer to 30%. When they asked the district manager how they led the company that year he said it was simple, they concentrated their efforts on the 70% that were still working.
> 
> If you wait until the economy turns around, the economy will never turn around. Sometimes one has to take the bull by the horns and go for it. *If sales are slumping, take another path.* Marriott is taking another path. In sales, it pays to never make the mistake of assuming everyone isn't spending money. That's when your business fails.



But Marriott wants to drag 400,000 families down another path with it - and demand WE pay for the brand new path.

This is like driving past one of those road construction sites, with the huge government signs on the side of the highway, telling that you that you paid for this road.

I don't want to get crushed by one of those beeping front-end loaders backing up....

Marriott has taken it upon themselves to intertwine their very survival with our deeded timeshare ownership - I don't like the idea.


----------



## scrapngen

m61376 said:


> I agree with your first paragraph and generally have the same life viewpoint as your third, but can't disagree more with your second. With all the instability that has trickled down into everyone's life- no one is immune form the economic crisis or its trickle down effects- why introduce something that will create more uncertainty? People who are barely making ends meet- or even those of us who are more fortunate but who, nevertheless, are impacted by the trickle down effects (others misfortunes translate into a smaller client base. regardless of the industry or profession) are going to be less likely to increase discretionary expenditures. Instead of being a purchase enticement I think in these time having one's  arm twisted is apt to be met with resentment.
> 
> When you visit your resorts, do you get the sense that people are traveling like they used to? I know I don't. Neighboring hotels are crying for business and restaurants, once reservations only, are half empty at times. Timeshares are still full, because they are largely prepaid vacations (and the MF's are obligatory anyway) but take-out and grilling is clearly more prevalent. Last year there was an interesting article in one of the Hawaii papers- even unemployed owners were visiting because their trip had already been paid for (including airfare pre-purchased) so they might as well be unemployed in Hawaii- but they were cutting back on their vacation spending wherever possible.
> 
> So they may visit the sales office to get updates, but reaching for their checkbooks is a whole different matter.



REgarding your second paragraph, I take a different view of what/why Marriott is changing the game. People aren't able to do what they used to. Travel for a week at a time to exotic locations. Having the flexibility of shorter (read less costly) trips, or getting a better exchange that is more in line with your high MF's might be very desirable to those who can't travel the same way they used to. While many on this board will spend time looking at the ramifications, there will be plenty of current TS owners who will jump at the chance to better utilize what they own, without looking at the bigger picture in depth. They just want to continue taking great vacations, and if it looks like the choices are even better or updated to look like some of the other systems that people have wanted, but didn't like the location options, then they'll probably love it.  So it seems like a smart time for Marriott to target their primary sales base with a more flexible system. I am not a saleperson, but can see this approach working to get a lot of sales.


----------



## hipslo

dougp26364 said:


> Besides, the Myan's have predicted that the world will end Dec. 21, 2012.



I thought it was June 16, 2010.


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> I agree with your first paragraph and generally have the same life viewpoint as your third, but can't disagree more with your second. With all the instability that has trickled down into everyone's life- no one is immune form the economic crisis or its trickle down effects- why introduce something that will create more uncertainty? People who are barely making ends meet- or even those of us who are more fortunate but who, nevertheless, are impacted by the trickle down effects (others misfortunes translate into a smaller client base. regardless of the industry or profession) are going to be less likely to increase discretionary expenditures. Instead of being a purchase enticement I think in these time having one's  arm twisted is apt to be met with resentment.
> 
> When you visit your resorts, do you get the sense that people are traveling like they used to? I know I don't. Neighboring hotels are crying for business and restaurants, once reservations only, are half empty at times. Timeshares are still full, because they are largely prepaid vacations (and the MF's are obligatory anyway) but take-out and grilling is clearly more prevalent. Last year there was an interesting article in one of the Hawaii papers- even unemployed owners were visiting because their trip had already been paid for (including airfare pre-purchased) so they might as well be unemployed in Hawaii- but they were cutting back on their vacation spending wherever possible.
> 
> So they may visit the sales office to get updates, but reaching for their checkbooks is a whole different matter.


Only time will tell whether this is a good time to make changes.  In general you do best when  you do things different than what or when others are doing so.  I think this change has long been in the works but the economy has give them the opportunity to make the change.  Sales are in the toilet, what better time to make this change if you were going to make it, than now.  You're losing far less on the initiation and training now than at any other time no matter how you look at it.  Less people to train, a more streamlined system, fewer lost sales during the process, etc.  I doubt they're expecting it to turn around completely due to a points system.  I'm sure if they are to break even now but position themselves better as the economy changes, they'll be thrilled with the process.  It also gives them the opportunity to essentially sell existing weeks that are lower demand like they are higher demand because the points are more flexible than a fixed or seasonal floating week.  I know this is one of the problems in some people's eyes but it is a cardinal feature of points system.


----------



## PerryM

*We're off to see the wizard....*



Dean said:


> Only time will tell whether this is a good time to make changes.  In general you do best when  you do things different than what or when others are doing so.  I think this change has long been in the works but the economy has give them the opportunity to make the change.  Sales are in the toilet, what better time to make this change if you were going to make it, than now.  You're losing far less on the initiation and training now than at any other time no matter how you look at it.  Less people to train, a more streamlined system, fewer lost sales during the process, etc.  I doubt they're expecting it to turn around completely due to a points system.  I'm sure if they are to break even now but position themselves better as the economy changes, they'll be thrilled with the process.  It also gives them the opportunity to essentially sell existing weeks that are lower demand like they are higher demand because the points are more flexible than a fixed or seasonal floating week.  I know this is one of the problems in some people's eyes but it is a cardinal feature of points system.



What's missing from the above is the 400,000 families Marriott decided to drag along with them as they head down the yellow brick road to the land of Sales Oz...


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> What's missing from the above is the 400,000 families Marriott decided to drag along with them as they head down the yellow brick road to the land of Sales Oz...


Perry, that's a fundamental difference in the way you look at it and the way I do.  While Marriott is changing the landscape going forward, they are not changing the nature of what one bought.  While it's like that non guaranteed options will change, they will not go away completely.  Those families will likely have the opportunity to chose their path, worst case scenario is they stay where they are, use their week and exchange without the internal trading preference.  I think that's the difference in that I don't see this as a problem and you do.  I'm betting they do a lot better job in the transition than I remember FF did.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> What's missing from the above is the 400,000 families Marriott decided to drag along with them as they head down the yellow brick road to the land of Sales Oz...



Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


----------



## puckmanfl

good afternoon...

In the past if I wanted to snag a " Park City ski week" I had to hope one of the deeded owners placed it for exchange and I had enough trading power for the "deal".

In the new world order, I will have to hope a deeded owner deposits for exchange AND I will have to guess which system (points/weeks) they deposit into.  In the points "gig" trading power also becomes "moot" as all can combine, borrow or bank points.  The new customer (points) will not be able to guess which system to play in, butwill have to truly truly hope the deeded owners of a "sold out" resort gives up the "home field advantage" and plays with points.

Do you think the sales force will be telling the new customers this? or just "sellin' the dream"


----------



## PerryM

*Apple pie oh my...*



Dean said:


> Perry, that's a fundamental difference in the way you look at it and the way I do.  *While Marriott is changing the landscape going forward, they are not changing the nature of what one bought.*  While it's like that non guaranteed options will change, they will not go away completely.  Those families will likely have the opportunity to chose their path, worst case scenario is they stay where they are, use their week and exchange without the internal trading preference.  I think that's the difference in that I don't see this as a problem and you do.  I'm betting they do a lot better job in the transition than I remember FF did.



What does that mean?

Lots of folks here keep spouting that concept like they attended a session of Marriott's General Counsel.  That definition is good for Marriott and bad for owners.

That's a very poor definition of a timeshare anymore; i.e. the bloody deed and its description. 

It's like saying that the ONLY thing I get of value when I buy an apple pie at Costco is the apples, flour, sugar, shortening, and spices.  That's not what I bought. - I bought something that looks nice, smells nice, and tastes nice.  If Costco decides to just dump the individual ingredients into a box nobody in their right mind would spout "That's all you're entitled to Bozo".

Marriott want's to change a 20 year old definition of a timeshare and keep just a few ingredients and change everything else - I suggest that is not what ANY of you really bought.

Sales weasels don't care, marketing weasels don't care, the folks in the reservation center don't care, and apparently Mr Marriott doesn't care either.

We'll see what a Marriott timeshare minus the Marriott looks like...


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> What does that mean?
> 
> Lots of folks here keep spouting that concept like they attended a session of Marriott's General Counsel.  That definition is good for Marriott and bad for owners.
> 
> That's a very poor definition of a timeshare anymore; i.e. the bloody deed and its description.
> 
> It's like saying that the ONLY thing I get of value when I buy an apple pie at Costco is the apples, flour, sugar, shortening, and spices.  That's not what I bought. - I bought something that looks nice, smells nice, and tastes nice.  If Costco decides to just dump the individual ingredients into a box nobody in their right mind would spout "That's all you're entitled to Bozo".
> 
> Marriott want's to change a 20 year old definition of a timeshare and keep just a few ingredients and change everything else - I suggest that is not what ANY of you really bought.
> 
> Sales weasels don't care, marketing weasels don't care, the folks in the reservation center don't care, and apparently Mr Marriott doesn't care either.
> 
> We'll see what a Marriott timeshare minus the Marriott looks like...


It means you can still use what you bought and still exchange it, nothing has changed in principle. Perry you've been around long enough to know that things change all the time with timeshares and if I'm not mistaken, there were rumors of Marriott changes and an internal exchange system on TUG prior to when you bought your current week.  Didn't you sell your prior weeks in part because you were unhappy with Marriott?  This is sounding more and more like sour grapes on your part and you only have one week to worry about.  I have 9, all but one of which were resale though 2 of those that were resale are now considered by Marriott as retail purchases.  My risk and my skin in the game is infinitely more than most and therefore if the choices are poor, I'll be affected more than most.


----------



## scrapngen

dougp26364 said:


> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.



:hysterical: :hysterical: 

On second thought...Perry's defense might be: "Just remember that if you ignore the man, you'll get hoodwinked by the almighty powerful OZ, so am not sure that was the the intention of your funny  or that IS your point  
Due to the convolutions of this crazy thread, I am somewhat confused as to who is behind each horse in this race. Well, pretty sure what horse Perry is betting on, although I believe he is really hoping his horse isn't the winner as we'll all lose in that case. I haven't figured out where I am, just am believing in a third, middle horse and have the naivety/faith to think that none of the jockeys intends to cheat. They'll definitely do their best to win money for their owners as that is their job. 

Let's add another reference here for fun...will we find ourselves in a Catch-22 with the new roll-out?


----------



## JimIg23

Dean said:


> It means you can still use what you bought and still exchange it, nothing has changed in principle. .



The only thing that will change is there will be less Marriott weeks to exchange in II if the internal exchange takes off.  I pretty much try to exchange into marriotts, so this may have a bigger impact on me.


----------



## Dean

JimIg23 said:


> The only thing that will change is there will be less Marriott weeks to exchange in II if the internal exchange takes off.  I pretty much try to exchange into marriotts, so this may have a bigger impact on me.


As I noted previously, I essentially only exchange the Marriott weeks to other Marriott's, I can't think of an exception off hand.  Of my 9 weeks I have five I never plan to exchange, 1 I exchange rarely, 1 I will likely exchange about half of the time and 2 lockoff weeks that are exclusively for exchanging.  I think it will be a wash as long as the internal trading preference remains in tact in that there will be less deposits and less other Marriott owners looking for them.  I wouldn't be surprised if the % of success for higher demand options actually went up instead of down.  

I just got a call from the "concierge" at HH since I have a week starting Sat that I rented out.  He said an email announcement would be going out to ALL Marriott owners on 20 June for the new system.  He volunteered the info and was really talking it up but wouldn't give any specifics saying he would lose his job if he did.


----------



## scrapngen

Dean said:


> As I noted previously, I essentially only exchange the Marriott weeks to other Marriott's, I can't think of an exception off hand.  Of my 9 weeks I have five I never plan to exchange, 1 I exchange rarely, 1 I will likely exchange about half of the time and 2 lockoff weeks that are exclusively for exchanging.  I think it will be a wash as long as the internal trading preference remains in tact in that there will be less deposits and less other Marriott owners looking for them.  I wouldn't be surprised if the % of success for higher demand options actually went up instead of down.
> 
> I just got a call from the "concierge" at HH since I have a week starting Sat that I rented out.  He said an email announcement would be going out to ALL Marriott owners on 20 June for the new system.  He volunteered the info and was really talking it up but wouldn't give any specifics saying he would lose his job if he did.



Wow!   June 20th - well, pretty close to the 16th and 18th of prior speculations....and interesting that he says we'll *all* get notification of some sort!!  Wonder if it will be a very vague - "talk to your salesrep" or have a few specifics with a "talk to your salesrep..."


----------



## PerryM

*Apple pie - apple cobbler - who really cares*



Dean said:


> *It means you can still use what you bought and still exchange it, nothing has changed in principle.* Perry you've been around long enough to know that things change all the time with timeshares and if I'm not mistaken, there were rumors of Marriott changes and an internal exchange system on TUG prior to when you bought your current week.  Didn't you sell your prior weeks in part because you were unhappy with Marriott?  This is sounding more and more like sour grapes on your part and you only have one week to worry about.  I have 9, all but one of which were resale though 2 of those that were resale are now considered by Marriott as retail purchases.  My risk and my skin in the game is infinitely more than most and therefore if the choices are poor, I'll be affected more than most.



But it has (or will so shortly).

Summit Watch has 200 villas that are ALL Marriott - that's what I bought into.

If the salesrep said "50% of these will be taken over by Starwood and you will have to live with that new arrangement" well that would be something completely different.

Let's just say 50% of the total units at Summit Watch convert to the new system and 50% don't.  That means out of the 200 villas I no longer get to exchange with 100 of them.

It also means that when I call in to make a reservation 100 villas * 50 owners each = 5,000 fewer units are now available to me.

This is a fundamentally different Summit Watch now - half the condos have been ripped from their old foundation and moved.

Even worse the 50% of the folks who convert probably won't be able to snap up a juicy, hot, week but a dumbed down version for exchange purposes.

Apply this system wide and I'm back to my example of Costco dumping the raw ingredients into a pie box and telling me this is all I ever was promised.

Anyway that's how I see it - doubt it has any influence as Marriott takes the pie ingredients and makes an apple cobbler instead - hey its the same ingredients.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> But it has (or will so shortly).
> 
> Summit Watch has 200 villas that are ALL Marriott - that's what I bought into.
> 
> If the salesrep said "50% of these will be taken over by Starwood and you will have to live with that new arrangement" well that would be something completely different.
> 
> Let's just say 50% of the total units at Summit Watch convert to the new system and 50% don't.  That means out of the 200 villas I no longer get to exchange with 100 of them.
> 
> It also means that when I call in to make a reservation 100 villas * 50 owners each = 5,000 fewer units are now available to me.
> 
> This is a fundamentally different Summit Watch now - half the condos have been ripped from their old foundation and moved.
> 
> Even worse the 50% of the folks who convert probably won't be able to snap up a juicy, hot, week but a dumbed down version for exchange purposes.
> 
> Apply this system wide and I'm back to my example of Costco dumping the raw ingredients into a pie box and telling me this is all I ever was promised.
> 
> Anyway that's how I see it - doubt it has any influence as Marriott takes the pie ingredients and makes an apple cobbler instead - hey its the same ingredients.


First, I've stated that where you exchange to is not part of the official equation even though you have made it so in your own mind.  However Perry taking your example and for simplicity, assume you  only exchanging back to your home resort. Lets further assume that the same % of people will exchange in each group as would have without any change and that there are no changes in the internal exchange rules.  If half the members in a given season convert, you'll have roughly half the number of potential units to exchange to but roughlyl half the competition. The same applies to reservations.  In reality each resort has more than 2 segments.  You've got view types, seasons, resale vs retail, lockoff's.  This adds a complexity to management but not really to usage, reserving or exchanging.

I realize it's unlikely to be exactly the same but feel the chances of it working to your favor are about as good as the reverse and it's very likely you'll have more and better options going forward than currently but we'll see shortly.


----------



## dougp26364

puckmanfl said:


> good afternoon...
> 
> In the past if I wanted to snag a " Park City ski week" I had to hope one of the deeded owners placed it for exchange and I had enough trading power for the "deal".
> 
> In the new world order, I will have to hope a deeded owner deposits for exchange AND I will have to guess which system (points/weeks) they deposit into.  In the points "gig" trading power also becomes "moot" as all can combine, borrow or bank points.  The new customer (points) will not be able to guess which system to play in, butwill have to truly truly hope the deeded owners of a "sold out" resort gives up the "home field advantage" and plays with points.
> 
> Do you think the sales force will be telling the new customers this? or just "sellin' the dream"



Why would you have to guess? Deeded weeks owners outside any points based system will only be able to deposit into Interval for exchange. Points based owners won't deposit anything. Inventory will be controled by either Marriott if it's a points overlay system or, by the trust manager who will control what inventory is deposited.

Like I stated earlier, in a points based system, there will be a contract between Marriott and Interval that guarentee's a certain number of weeks of a certain quality level will be given to Interval for exchange. Members exchange points directly, Marriott gives Interval the weeks it chooses (within the contract limits) to cover the points for exchange. 

It's nothing to worry about and, you're in no different position today than you'd be with in just the straight weeks program. In fact, if you join the points program, you're likely to find there's NO guessing at all. You'll know EXACTLY what it takes to get the Park City week you want and, if you can wait until the Flexchange period, you might be able to get it for 1/2 off IF Marriott runs their program that way.


----------



## dougp26364

scrapngen said:


> :hysterical: :hysterical:
> 
> On second thought...Perry's defense might be: "Just remember that if you ignore the man, you'll get hoodwinked by the almighty powerful OZ, so am not sure that was the the intention of your funny  or that IS your point
> Due to the convolutions of this crazy thread, I am somewhat confused as to who is behind each horse in this race. Well, pretty sure what horse Perry is betting on, although I believe he is really hoping his horse isn't the winner as we'll all lose in that case. I haven't figured out where I am, just am believing in a third, middle horse and have the naivety/faith to think that none of the jockeys intends to cheat. They'll definitely do their best to win money for their owners as that is their job.
> 
> Let's add another reference here for fun...will we find ourselves in a Catch-22 with the new roll-out?



Humor and intention. Oz was just a man behind the curtain but everyone thought he was all powerful and all seeing. In the end, he was just a man pulling everyone's chain.


----------



## dougp26364

JimIg23 said:


> The only thing that will change is there will be less Marriott weeks to exchange in II if the internal exchange takes off.  I pretty much try to exchange into marriotts, so this may have a bigger impact on me.



Maybe, maybe not. Remember, in order for Marriott point's to have any value for external exchanges, Marriott will have to give Interval some of that inventory. Since Interval doesn't have a points based exchange system, those weeks will go into the weeks based inventory. So what you're likely to see is weeks owners getting access in a round-about way to points inventory.


----------



## dougp26364

Dean said:


> As I noted previously, I essentially only exchange the Marriott weeks to other Marriott's, I can't think of an exception off hand.  Of my 9 weeks I have five I never plan to exchange, 1 I exchange rarely, 1 I will likely exchange about half of the time and 2 lockoff weeks that are exclusively for exchanging.  I think it will be a wash as long as the internal trading preference remains in tact in that there will be less deposits and less other Marriott owners looking for them.  I wouldn't be surprised if the % of success for higher demand options actually went up instead of down.
> 
> I just got a call from the "concierge" at HH since I have a week starting Sat that I rented out.  He said an email announcement would be going out to ALL Marriott owners on 20 June for the new system.  He volunteered the info and was really talking it up but wouldn't give any specifics saying he would lose his job if he did.



Thank goodness. One week we'll all be able to speculate about a general E-mail announcement that for some will be equivelent to announcing the end of the world and for others will be the announcement of the second coming.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> But it has (or will so shortly).
> 
> Summit Watch has 200 villas that are ALL Marriott - that's what I bought into.
> 
> If the salesrep said "50% of these will be taken over by Starwood and you will have to live with that new arrangement" well that would be something completely different.
> 
> Let's just say 50% of the total units at Summit Watch convert to the new system and 50% don't.  That means out of the 200 villas I no longer get to exchange with 100 of them.
> 
> It also means that when I call in to make a reservation 100 villas * 50 owners each = 5,000 fewer units are now available to me.
> 
> This is a fundamentally different Summit Watch now - half the condos have been ripped from their old foundation and moved.
> 
> Even worse the 50% of the folks who convert probably won't be able to snap up a juicy, hot, week but a dumbed down version for exchange purposes.
> 
> Apply this system wide and I'm back to my example of Costco dumping the raw ingredients into a pie box and telling me this is all I ever was promised.
> 
> Anyway that's how I see it - doubt it has any influence as Marriott takes the pie ingredients and makes an apple cobbler instead - hey its the same ingredients.



Are you forgeting that if 50% join the points program, you'll still be competing with the same percentage of owners to reserve your week? Nothing significant will change. Marriott is not going to hog all the best weeks for ponits owners and leave the weeks owners with the undesirable times. If you REALLY believe that's going to happen, you'd better be selling that Summit Watch week before the resale prices crash.

In fact, if you sell now, you might still get a good price. Then turn around in another year and buy it back for pennies on the dollar. Sounds like a plan to me.


----------



## PerryM

*The deed indeed...*



Dean said:


> First, I've stated that where you exchange to is not part of the official equation even though you have made it so in your own mind.  However Perry taking your example and for simplicity, assume you  only exchanging back to your home resort. Lets further assume that the same % of people will exchange in each group as would have without any change and that there are no changes in the internal exchange rules.  If half the members in a given season convert, you'll have roughly half the number of potential units to exchange to but roughlyl half the competition. The same applies to reservations.  In reality each resort has more than 2 segments.  You've got view types, seasons, resale vs retail, lockoff's.  This adds a complexity to management but not really to usage, reserving or exchanging.
> 
> I realize it's unlikely to be exactly the same but feel the chances of it working to your favor are about as good as the reverse and it's very likely you'll have more and better options going forward than currently but we'll see shortly.



You guys keep assuming I don't understand what the sales docs and CCRs say - rest assured I have a pretty good idea what my Gold week is entitled to.  I understand how fractions work and percentages.

My peaceful Summit Watch is about to be ripped into parts that will never be able to be put back together again - ever.  It will be Us versus Them and I don't know how far Marriott want's to take this but I'm assuming they will be hostile in this battle.

To those here who believe in "You are entitled to making a reservation and using it - that's all"  how about this (I'm going to use VIP to represent the new sales system):


VIP check-in lines only
VIP valet service only
VIP parking only closest to the resort
VIP rooms with a view
VIP Late check-out and early check-in
VIP concierge service only
VIP swimming pools only
VIP ski storage only
VIP pool towels only
VIP "best of the maids" service
VIP Maintenance service first

None of the above violate anything in your deed.

"The HOA would never do such a thing" - oh really?  Who holds the proxy votes of all those deeds in trust.

Where will Marriott stop?  Hey, check your deeds and see if they can be stopped.

P.S.
To those who expect to make a reservation in a prime week in your season - forget that; Marriott has the ability to snap up those weeks before you even click your mouse.

So yes, you will be able to get SOME week for your reservation on SOME check-in day - that's what your deed says; but a prime week and on a Saturday - dream on...


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> You guys keep assuming I don't understand what the sales docs and CCRs say - rest assured I have a pretty good idea what my Gold week is entitled to.  I understand how fractions work and percentages.
> 
> My peaceful Summit Watch is about to be ripped into parts that will never be able to be put back together again - ever.  It will be Us versus Them and I don't know how far Marriott want's to take this but I'm assuming they will be hostile in this battle.
> 
> Under those here who believe in "You are entitled to making a reservation and using it - that's all"  how about this (I'm going to use VIP to represent the new sales system):
> 
> 
> VIP check-in lines only
> VIP valet service only
> VIP rooms with a view
> VIP Late check-out and early check-in
> VIP concierge service only
> VIP swimming pools only
> VIP ski storage only
> VIP pool towels only
> VIP "best of the maids" service
> VIP Maintenance service first
> 
> None of the above violate anything in your deed.
> 
> "The HOA would never do such a thing" - oh really?  Who holds the proxy votes of all those deeds in trust.
> 
> Where will Marriott stop?  Hey, check your deeds and see if they can be stopped.


Perry, as I said much earlier, if I felt that Marriott weren't going to play reasonably fair in this, I'd sell.  If you're really stressing as much as the stress comes through in your posts, it's simply not worth it, sell.  My expectations are that they will try to entice us with additional options we don't have now or that will be different but that our reservation and usage options will be fair in most people's eyes.  Given your posts, I don't think they could make any changes at all and make you happy.  They will know there will be a group of owners that will not be happy with the changes no matter what.  In many ways they've likely already written that group off.  Get ready for the patronizing discussions and emails to those in that group as Marriott has made up their mind as to what change they are going to do whether you or I approve or not.


----------



## PerryM

*Bingo*



Dean said:


> Perry, as I said much earlier, if I felt that Marriott weren't going to play reasonably fair in this, I'd sell.  If you're really stressing as much as the stress comes through in your posts, it's simply not worth it, sell.  My expectations are that they will try to entice us with additional options we don't have now or that will be different but that our reservation and usage options will be fair in most people's eyes.  *Given your posts, I don't think they could make any changes at all and make you happy. * They will know there will be a group of owners that will not be happy with the changes no matter what.  In many ways they've likely already written that group off.  Get ready for the patronizing discussions and emails to those in that group as Marriott has made up their mind as to what change they are going to do whether you or I approve or not.



Give that man a chocolate cigar!

I am one owner who would welcome a Points exchange system and deplores to be used in a sales system.

I feel I'm being dragged into a sales gallery and forced to be part of the Marriott sales team.

That would be a really bad version of hell for me...


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> You guys keep assuming I don't understand what the sales docs and CCRs say - rest assured I have a pretty good idea what my Gold week is entitled to.  I understand how fractions work and percentages.
> 
> My peaceful Summit Watch is about to be ripped into parts that will never be able to be put back together again - ever.  It will be Us versus Them and I don't know how far Marriott want's to take this but I'm assuming they will be hostile in this battle.
> 
> To those here who believe in "You are entitled to making a reservation and using it - that's all"  how about this (I'm going to use VIP to represent the new sales system):
> 
> 
> VIP check-in lines only
> VIP valet service only
> VIP parking only closest to the resort
> VIP rooms with a view
> VIP Late check-out and early check-in
> VIP concierge service only
> VIP swimming pools only
> VIP ski storage only
> VIP pool towels only
> VIP "best of the maids" service
> VIP Maintenance service first
> 
> None of the above violate anything in your deed.
> 
> "The HOA would never do such a thing" - oh really?  Who holds the proxy votes of all those deeds in trust.
> 
> Where will Marriott stop?  Hey, check your deeds and see if they can be stopped.
> 
> P.S.
> To those who expect to make a reservation in a prime week in your season - forget that; Marriott has the ability to snap up those weeks before you even click your mouse.
> 
> So yes, you will be able to get SOME week for your reservation on SOME check-in day - that's what your deed says; but a prime week and on a Saturday - dream on...



You're making way to many assumptions just before leaping from your bridge. None of your listed items are likely to happen. Pools and pool towels only for points members. Come on, only you would go that far. All you're trying to do is whip everyone into hysteria based on nothing except for what you say. 

I asked you once before if you could name a points based system as bad as what you predict for Marriott. You answer was that you couldn't but that didn't mean that Marroitt wouldn't be the first. 

The problem as I see it is people are having difficulty confusing hysteria with hysterical. IMHO, you're hysteria is hysterical. 

If it's going to be this bad, then sell your one week now and get out. The change IS coming. All your ranting can't stop it. Get out while you still have some resale value left. Why haven't you sold your week? Because as an owner in Worldmarks points based system, you know it's never going to be what you're describing to the rest of us. You know a points based system can be worked just like a weeks based system. You know that you're just spreading fear for entertainment value and nothing else.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Give that man a chocolate cigar!
> 
> I am one owner who would welcome a Points exchange system and deplores to be used in a sales system.
> 
> I feel I'm being dragged into a sales gallery and forced to be part of the Marriott sales team.
> 
> That would be a really bad version of hell for me...



Huh? Is this the same Perry who brags about going into sales galleries, busting them for free stuff and the busting the salesmans chops because he's so much smarter than they are? It can't be the same person I've read all those posts from in the past. The one who bragged to timeshare salesmen on their own discussion forum about how he chews them up, spits them out and takes their fee gift for educating them. No, this Perry must be an imposter. I've never know our Perry to back away from a sales gallery or complain about being dragged into one.

I'm betting you can tell them yes or no over the phone and never have to set foot in a sales gallery. Give it enough time and you'll have the majority of the information you need to make a decision coming straight from TUG. The difference is it may be considerably more factual than points members having pool privledge's and towel while non-points owners are only allowed to sit and watch.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> Give that man a chocolate cigar!
> 
> I am one owner who would welcome a Points exchange system and deplores to be used in a sales system.
> 
> I feel I'm being dragged into a sales gallery and forced to be part of the Marriott sales team.
> 
> That would be a really bad version of hell for me...


I think I said before, I think there's a good chance you'll actually like the product they roll out and it's unlikely you'll lose much or anything you have now.  The only question in my mind is whether or not you'll like how to get from here to there and my guess is you will not like it because it will involve money.


----------



## FlyerBobcat

Dean said:


> I just got a call from the "concierge" at HH since I have a week starting Sat that I rented out.  He said an email announcement would be going out to ALL Marriott owners on 20 June for the new system.  He volunteered the info and was really talking it up but wouldn't give any specifics saying he would lose his job if he did.



Just got my call from an HH "concierge".  She wouldn't leak any information either, but she mentioned that when we arrive on the 20th at MGO the place will be decorated with lots of balloons & what-not for the big announcement and celebration.  I actually scheduled a time-slot for an info session,  but only with the understanding that I may cancel....  Might be interesting.


----------



## tombo

Many here think this program will be inexpensive and rolled out over the phone. This is a cash cow for Marriott and I will be surprised if the price to convert is less than $3000. Every Marriott salesman is paid on purely commission, and 10% to 20% of $500 is not going to pay their bills. They are used to making 10% to 20% of $25,000 and will not be excited to convert owners for a couple of hundred dollars. Marriott is not revamping the system for the good of the owners, this is to make profit pure and simple, and they will make big money on the points conversions. 

To convince owners to pay 1000's of dollars to convert they have to offer big advantages. As I said before they are not creating any new resorts, any new rooms, any new inventory of any kind, so the only way they can create incentives to convert is to give the points owners advantages over owners who don't convert. Once they roll it out we will know for sure what weeks owners are losing, but before they roll it out get prepared because you are going to lose access to inventory minimum, and probably other things yet to be announced. People don't spend $1000's for something that is only marginally better than what they already own. Marriott knows that very well  which is why they have worked on this for years and they feel sure the advantages of converting combined with the fear of and disadvantages of not converting will get a huge percentage of the owners to convert at whatever price point they have set.


----------



## taffy19

FlyerBobcat said:


> Just got my call from an HH "concierge".  She wouldn't leak any information either, but she mentioned that when we arrive on the 20th at MGO the place will be decorated with lots of balloons & what-not for the big announcement and celebration.  I actually scheduled a time-slot for an info session,  but only with the understanding that I may cancel....  Might be interesting.


Finally, almost official.


----------



## WelcomeHome

*Quote from "current "Marriott Rule Changes" Thread*



normab said:


> Oceans said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have own 3 weeks with Marriott (Ocean Pointe, KoLina, OceanWatch).  The first 2 were bought from Marriott, the last resale.  Over the 15 years that we have owned, each Owner's Forum yields half truths  and varying information.  However, as we just bought in May via resale, I have a question:  upon contacting Marriott first about purchasing a resale (price too high), I was told that owner rules would be changing with respect to priority at home resorts.  I have questioned  our Marriott Representative about the increased number of people who rent out their units and how, we as owners, cannot get an exchange thru interval.  She too also said that this may change as exchanges are almost non existent  this year.  Interval confirmed this. Both base this on the bad economy.
> 
> Has anyone received additional information?  I do not trust sales pitches, but a number of our fellow Marriott owners have heard the same information.[/QUOTE ]
> 
> I haven't heard about change in priority but I questioned MVCI recently about the numerous unreserved weeks on more than one of our timeshares.  They told me many people are behind in their maintenance fees, which means they can't reserve.  Therefore they can't rent either. I asked what happens to those units and was told Marriott rents them out.
> 
> So, Marriott wins big time since they charge a huge rental fee, more than any maintenance fee, and we who are trying to exchange, lose, as there is less availability.
> 
> *They also confirmed that there would be a points system and some charge to convert, and that they only expected 20-25% of current owners to convert. That should leave plenty of exchanging according to them...*
> I suspect the economy and unpaid maintenance fees will mess with trading availability on currently existing TSs more so than the new system.  But time will tell.
> 
> Norma
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a quote from the current "Marriott Rule Changes" Thread in which a salesman states that Marriot is only expecting a "conversion to points" by only about 20% to 25% of the owners. I thought I'd add this new little rumor to the hypothesis pot and see how it gets stirred around by the different opinions here.
> 
> Best wishes,
> David
Click to expand...


----------



## ArBravesFan

*New Program*

Took to tour of Lakeshore Reserve today.  It is BRAND new, opened nine days ago.  It is over the top beautiful!  Amazing grounds.  Open air seating areas reminded us of Ko Olina.  Very nice!

Anyway, we asked the salesman if he would confirm some suspicions about the new system.

Here is what he "confirmed."

1. You may stay with current system if you so choose.
2. New system will be points driven.
3. Marriott will offer internal exchange with no requirement for II.

He later offerd that new owners will own points non-specific to any resort ("Like Disney" - he is a former DVC salesman.  He also said the new system was developed by John Ruble - MVC VP, also a former DVC executive).:ignore: 

Interesting.  We will see.

Also learned that this was our 25th time to tour a Marriott property.  We either have lots of nerve or lots of points ... or both!


----------



## WelcomeHome

ArBravesFan said:


> Took to tour of Lakeshore Reserve today.  It is BRAND new, opened nine days ago.  It is over the top beautiful!  Amazing grounds.  Open air seating areas reminded us of Ko Olina.  Very nice!
> 
> Anyway, we asked the salesman if he would confirm some suspicions about the new system.
> 
> Here is what he "confirmed."
> 
> 1. You may stay with current system if you so choose.
> 2. New system will be points driven.
> 3. Marriott will offer internal exchange with no requirement for II.
> 
> He later offerd that new owners will own points non-specific to any resort ("Like Disney" - he is a former DVC salesman.  He also said the new system was developed by John Ruble - MVC VP, also a former DVC executive).:ignore:
> 
> Interesting.  We will see.
> 
> Also learned that this was our 25th time to tour a Marriott property.  We either have lots of nerve or lots of points ... or both!



This is great news if the new system is similar to Disney's. I'm also an owner at Disney Vacation Club and they have a fabulous system that "almost everyone" is always very happy with. As long as they don't charge an exhorbitant "Penalty Fee" for resale owners to convert, I'd be happy to convert to a points based system which is similar to Disney.

Keep in mind my Disney points provides FULL PROTECTION of HOME RESORT PRIORITY. I simply book my "home resorts" at 11 months out and then everyone has access to any resort (based on availability) at 7 months out. And while it's true that some resorts book up completely before the 7 month window arrives (because different resorts command very high demand based on "unique features of certain types of units" or "seasonal demand" based on what "festivals" are occuring at Disney), it's VERY rare that you can't book your own home resort prior to the opening of the 7 month window. And as far as resorts I don't own, I'm invaribly able to do a very acceptable exchange into other Disney resorts I want provided I make my reservations within a reasonable time (about a month or so) after the 7 month booking window opens.

So if that's the worst of it and they charge a resonable fee to make the conversion (reasonable would be a few hundred dollars), then the new points system sounds like a great deal to me ! ! ! !


Best wishes,
David


----------



## Dean

ArBravesFan said:


> Took to tour of Lakeshore Reserve today.  It is BRAND new, opened nine days ago.  It is over the top beautiful!  Amazing grounds.  Open air seating areas reminded us of Ko Olina.  Very nice!
> 
> Anyway, we asked the salesman if he would confirm some suspicions about the new system.
> 
> Here is what he "confirmed."
> 
> 1. You may stay with current system if you so choose.
> 2. New system will be points driven.
> 3. Marriott will offer internal exchange with no requirement for II.
> 
> He later offerd that new owners will own points non-specific to any resort ("Like Disney" - he is a former DVC salesman.  He also said the new system was developed by John Ruble - MVC VP, also a former DVC executive).:ignore:
> 
> Interesting.  We will see.
> 
> Also learned that this was our 25th time to tour a Marriott property.  We either have lots of nerve or lots of points ... or both!


As noted, DVC does have a home resort priority.  In thinking of Marriott vs DVC, I think DVC could far more easily get by without a home resort priority than can Marriott because they have far less variability in location and resort quality than does Marriott.  I realize that most points systems do not have a home resort priority but to get my best weeks inside the system, I'll have to have some type of way to assure I can get the weeks I purposefully bought.  That's either an overly where I get to chose the points OR the week reservation OR some type of home resort priority that gives me a reasonable chance of getting what I want including multiple units for a given week.  We'll see, it should be interesting, esp as details start to leak out this week.


----------



## puckmanfl

Dean:

Looks like we agree here.  Without home resort priority I doubt that owners of the "primo" weeks will convert.  Let's return to my ski week example.  Hypothetically, an owner of a primo Park City or Tahoe ski week will mostly occupy but occasionally might trade to ski in a different location or try something different.  I would be willing to wager that the owners of these units purchased mostly to occupy and occasionally exchange.   Now these owners, can do a request first before giving up the home resort.  I don't think these owners will put their weeks in the points without some assurance they will be able to "snag" a similiar week in return.

I don't believe you will be giving up summer in HHI either without some sort of confidence you could get it back!!!

I on the other hand might be quite inclined to convert my GV weeks even without Home resort priority (if it is not cost prohibitive)  as I have ZERO doubts about being able to go to Orlando.  If the deal is a "three year term" as per the "survey" I would most likely  convert the Hawaii's as 2011 weeks are already booked for my 25th anniv. super trip.  I would probably be Hawaii'ed out for a few years after this one.  The prospects of some mini jaunts to off season joints within driving distance (HHI, Florida etc) might be quite appealing...


----------



## dioxide45

WelcomeHome said:


> normab said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a quote from the current "Marriott Rule Changes" Thread in which a salesman states that Marriot is only expecting a "conversion to points" by only about 20% to 25% of the owners. I thought I'd add this new little rumor to the hypothesis pot and see how it gets stirred around by the different opinions here.
> 
> Best wishes,
> David
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If they get 20% to convert at say a $1K conversion fee, that comes out to a $100MM sum. A tidy amount that would certainly pay for any investment they put in to developing it.
> 
> Something to think about for us if any of this comes to fruition. Many are saying that lowly silver/bronze week owners are more likely to convert than the owners of primo weeks. We own gold in Orlando, and like to use that to exchange in to silver and other gold weeks at other resorts. While there may still be 80% of the weeks in the deeded system, there may only be about 50% of gold and silver weeks left, My gold week won't get me primo weeks and I don't want them anyway.
Click to expand...


----------



## dioxide45

Another thing to consider is that a points system is a chance for Marriott to "re-season" a lot of their resorts. A big complaint at many resorts is that people can't get book prime weeks since seasons are too long and there are too many owners competing for only a few weeks.

In a new system there isn't anything stating that Marriott must assign point values off of the existing seasons. They could look at Ocean Pointe and assign more points to the May weeks and fewer points to the September weeks. You may get an average of all of those points in the season you own.

So if you are used to going to OP every May, you may have to instead go in May one year and September the next by borrowing or carrying points over.

Marriott can change the whole game with this.


----------



## Asia2000

This may not be of any impact, but keep in mind that most likely the point system will assign point values to specific days within your week.  That way, if you only want to stay Monday through Thursday in the resort (for significantly less points), you can, and then shift somewhere else (maybe a Marriott for $99 a night).  Thereby saving your points for the next trip.  I'm not sure if I would like this.  I'm more of a "camp in one spot" type of person, but if you wanted to move around, the points program gives you that option.  

However, it would seem like someone staying only four days would really throw a wrench into the inventory system.  I guess Marriott would rather rent four nights than no nights, but during prime weeks, this may be an issue?  Possibly they will just use "off the street" inventory to meet the demands of the "less than 7 days" Points users?


----------



## tombo

ArBravesFan said:


> He later offerd that new owners will own points non-specific to any resort ("Like Disney" - he is a former DVC salesman.  He also said the new system was developed by John Ruble - MVC VP, also a former DVC executive).:ignore:
> 
> :



I wonder if non specific means that they are selling points packages not tied to a deeded week, or if he was just saying that the points are good at any Marriott. If they are not tied to a specific deeded week all sorts of problems could occur. No home resort advantage, no way to know what weeks are actually in the points systems, and who knows what other problems it would create. Marriott could simply dump all of it's unsold inventory and repossessed weeks and designate an abrtrary number of points to the week and sell points to points members without ever disclosing what (if any) underlying deeded weeks the points they purchased were based on. I assume the sales person was mistaken but if they are selling points not tied to any specific resort that will change things drastically.


----------



## PerryM

*The first TUG wave to hit the beaches.....*



FlyerBobcat said:


> Just got my call from an HH "concierge".  She wouldn't leak any information either, but she mentioned that when we arrive on the 20th at MGO the place will be decorated with lots of balloons & what-not for the big announcement and celebration.  I actually scheduled a time-slot for an info session,  but only with the understanding that I may cancel....  Might be interesting.



Good god man don't miss that appointment; we're counting on you.

If your cellphone can do live video streaming please do so, if not buy another cell phone please - you have time....


----------



## dioxide45

tombo said:


> I wonder if non specific means that they are selling points packages not tied to a deeded week, or if he was just saying that the points are good at any Marriott. If they are not tied to a specific deeded week all sorts of problems could occur. No home resort advantage, no way to know what weeks are actually in the points systems, and who knows what other problems it would create. Marriott could simply dump all of it's unsold inventory and repossessed weeks and designate an abrtrary number of points to the week and sell points to points members without ever disclosing what (if any) underlying deeded weeks the points they purchased were based on. I assume the sales person was mistaken but if they are selling points not tied to any specific resort that will change things drastically.



I think in order for Marriott to sell the dream. Travel to prime locations on prime time, they have to sell points tied to a resort that is a resort you probably don't want to visit. At many of their resorts they only have gold, silver or lower weeks left in inventory. These are the weeks they need to move because people don't want them. Their fix is to assign points to them and you buy the points. Your deed actually shows two winter Branson weeks, but you can use the points from those to get summer in HHI. Of course they could just look at everything that is unsold at conversion day how many points those are worth and sell and deed points. There are too many regulations in place in most states that they won't be able to game the system and oversell the weeks/points allotment.


----------



## billymach4

I have a good friend in Aruba Surf Club right now. She is going to a sales presentation at 9:00am. 


Will pass along any new information.


----------



## dougp26364

Dean said:


> I think I said before, I think there's a good chance you'll actually like the product they roll out and it's unlikely you'll lose much or anything you have now.  The only question in my mind is whether or not you'll like how to get from here to there and my guess is you will not like it because it will involve money.



What's going to be funny is if the program is so good, Perry has to eat crow for all the scary words he's posted and joins the new program himself. :hysterical:


----------



## dougp26364

tombo said:


> Many here think this program will be inexpensive and rolled out over the phone. This is a cash cow for Marriott and I will be surprised if the price to convert is less than $3000. Every Marriott salesman is paid on purely commission, and 10% to 20% of $500 is not going to pay their bills. They are used to making 10% to 20% of $25,000 and will not be excited to convert owners for a couple of hundred dollars. Marriott is not revamping the system for the good of the owners, this is to make profit pure and simple, and they will make big money on the points conversions.
> 
> To convince owners to pay 1000's of dollars to convert they have to offer big advantages. As I said before they are not creating any new resorts, any new rooms, any new inventory of any kind, so the only way they can create incentives to convert is to give the points owners advantages over owners who don't convert. Once they roll it out we will know for sure what weeks owners are losing, but before they roll it out get prepared because you are going to lose access to inventory minimum, and probably other things yet to be announced. People don't spend $1000's for something that is only marginally better than what they already own. Marriott knows that very well  which is why they have worked on this for years and they feel sure the advantages of converting combined with the fear of and disadvantages of not converting will get a huge percentage of the owners to convert at whatever price point they have set.




Prepare to be surprised. 

I'm betting the program isn't going to generate ANY sales comissions for the sales staff. Instead, it's going to put people in the seat for them to take a shot at increasing their ownership. I'd bet Marriott puts something in the way of an incentive to get owners to buy, much like they've been doing in the recent past.


----------



## dougp26364

Dean said:


> As noted, DVC does have a home resort priority.  In thinking of Marriott vs DVC, I think DVC could far more easily get by without a home resort priority than can Marriott because they have far less variability in location and resort quality than does Marriott.  *I realize that most points systems do not have a home resort priority *but to get my best weeks inside the system, I'll have to have some type of way to assure I can get the weeks I purposefully bought.  That's either an overly where I get to chose the points OR the week reservation OR some type of home resort priority that gives me a reasonable chance of getting what I want including multiple units for a given week.  We'll see, it should be interesting, esp as details start to leak out this week.



I thought most points systems maintained some sort of home resort priority. It's a few trust based ownerships where there is no home resort, just an ownership interest in a trust that includes several resorts, that didn't have what Marriott owners understand as home resort priority.


----------



## dougp26364

Asia2000 said:


> ..........
> However, it would seem like someone staying only four days would really throw a wrench into the inventory system.  I guess Marriott would rather rent four nights than no nights, but during prime weeks, this may be an issue?  Possibly they will just use "off the street" inventory to meet the demands of the "less than 7 days" Points users?



I would have thought that as well but, with DRI and HGVC, there appears to be a way to manage partial weeks stays that's not to difficult. I don't usually have an issue gettting full week or a partial week stay within either system. I'll agree it doesn't make sense on the surface but, it works.


----------



## DanCali

FlyerBobcat said:


> Just got my call from an HH "concierge".  She wouldn't leak any information either, but she mentioned that when we arrive on the 20th at MGO the place will be decorated with lots of balloons & what-not for the big announcement and celebration.  I actually scheduled a time-slot for an info session,  but only with the understanding that I may cancel....  Might be interesting.



Please try to find out the answer to the $100MM question... how does the inventory get allocated to the points system versus weeks.

For example - say a resort has 2 seasons. Gold is 1-26 and Platinum is 27-52. Now half of the Platinum convert to points... do they (i) take half of each week from 27-52 into the points system? (ii) take the deeded weeks of those who converted to the points system. (iii) do they take the most desirable weeks to the points system (say all July, August, and holiday weeks).

If you can't get a straight answer, we'll have good reason to suspect there is some monkey business going on...


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> Please try to find out the answer to the $100MM question... how does the inventory get allocated to the points system versus weeks.
> 
> For example - say a resort has 2 seasons. Gold is 1-26 and Platinum is 27-52. Now half of the Platinum convert to points... do they (i) take half of each week from 27-52 into the points system? (ii) take the deeded weeks of those who converted to the points system. (iii) do they take the most desirable weeks to the points system (say all July, August, and holiday weeks).
> 
> If you can't get a straight answer, we'll have good reason to suspect there is some monkey business going on...




I know this isn't definitive but, my guess is it will be like other mixed use resorts. There are X number of points based ownership and X number of weeks based ownership for each season. As reservations are made, the tally is kept. If there are 100 points based weeks available once those weeks are reserved thats all that's available for that resort. My bet is it will still be first come, first served. 

What will be tricky is if they give points based reseravtions a head start on reserving their weeks. While anything is possible, I don't see Marriott doing that to the weeks based owners. I could see some sort of multi week priority given for reservations like what Marriott currently does (13 months rather than 12 months). 

Honestly, I own in a mixed use system and it's not been an issue for either owners in the weeks based reservations system or the points based reservations system. Contrary to the fear mongering that's gone on in this thread, I don't believe it will ever be the problem a few posters are trying to make it out to be.


----------



## JimIg23

dougp26364 said:


> Prepare to be surprised.
> 
> I'm betting the program isn't going to generate ANY sales comissions for the sales staff. Instead, it's going to put people in the seat for them to take a shot at increasing their ownership. I'd bet Marriott puts something in the way of an incentive to get owners to buy, much like they've been doing in the recent past.



I dont think this will be true.  A company wont (I should say shouldnt) ask their sales people to spend several hours a day to get owners to sign up for the new system and not get a penny out of it.  Unless the reps are going to be told not to worry about current owner conversions and Marriott will handle them over the phone or something.


----------



## m61376

dioxide45 said:


> Another thing to consider is that a points system is a chance for Marriott to "re-season" a lot of their resorts. A big complaint at many resorts is that people can't get book prime weeks since seasons are too long and there are too many owners competing for only a few weeks.
> 
> In a new system there isn't anything stating that Marriott must assign point values off of the existing seasons. They could look at Ocean Pointe and assign more points to the May weeks and fewer points to the September weeks. You may get an average of all of those points in the season you own.
> 
> So if you are used to going to OP every May, you may have to instead go in May one year and September the next by borrowing or carrying points over.
> 
> Marriott can change the whole game with this.


I think that would be a bitter pill for owners to swallow. I brought up this possibility before, so I agree with the possibility, but I think it would be a real pitfall if owners did not get enough points to book every week in their owned system. It is likely to be even more of an issue with neighboring resorts that have different seasons, such as Ocean Pointe and Oceana Palms (with some Silver weeks in one being Platinum in the other), neighboring resorts with one having Plat. holiday weeks and the other Plat. Plus (for ex., Aruba) and even in a few resorts where certain Holiday weeks were initially sold as Plat. but later as Plat. Plus. I think those will be particular challenges.

I know I frequently go to Aruba the first week in Feb., which has a TDI equivalent to holiday weeks. IF a points system doesn't give me enough points to book the week I generally do, I'd be hard pressed to join. I think people will take notice if they aren't given enough points to book the prime weeks in their owned season.


----------



## m61376

JimIg23 said:


> I dont think this will be true.  A company wont (I should say shouldnt) ask their sales people to spend several hours a day to get owners to sign up for the new system and not get a penny out of it.  Unless the reps are going to be told not to worry about current owner conversions and Marriott will handle them over the phone or something.



I agree- but the price doesn't have to be high for both Marriott and the salespeople to be happy. Commission salespeople depend on two things- the commission percent and the volume of their sales. Let's say, for argument's sake, they charge $1000 per week- if half of 400,000 owner weeks convert, that's $200,000,000. Currently, for every 10 timeshare presentations made, 8-9 yield nothing to the salesperson. Roll-out the new system- even at 10% commission- for those same 10 presentations the salesperson would be getting a base commission of $500 (for the half of the converters) plus the opportunity to sell more points to current owners. 

Rather than costing Marriott to do sales presentations (in the form of all those freebies) Marriott will be earning money on those sales presentations, assuming the new program is attractive. Instead of having to entice visitors to waste 90 minutes of their time, many owners will be asking for updates. Repeat customers are always the best audience for future sales.

I can see how this would be potentially very profitable both for Marriott and their salespeople. I am just not so sure about owner reaction in this economy. I understand what was posted above about increasing sales, even in a bad economy, by concentrating on the employed. But even most of the employed I know have been adversely impacted- whether by market losses, company-wide cuts in salary, or both professional and retail decreased business as a trickle down effect of client belt tightening. I think Marriott is walking a fine line in this economy. I'm not so sure that people won't balk at being asked to fork over thousands of dollars more for something that many consider a luxury item in the first place.

Personally, of course depending on the program details - including home resort advantage, point allocation and MF structuring - I would find a Disney like flexibility attractive, but at a $500-$1000 cost. Anything over 1K I think will be hard to get a jump start today. And I think they'd need to give multi-week owners a discounted rate- perhaps 1K for the first week, $500 for the second and $250 each for 3 or more.

Then again, IF they roll out an Asia Pacific points type program, I wouldn't join for free, let alone the 5K price tag attached.


----------



## PerryM

*Who's crowing about crow?*



dougp26364 said:


> What's going to be funny is if the program is so good, Perry has to eat crow for all the scary words he's posted and joins the new program himself. :hysterical:



Hey I have an entire cook book on preparing crow - I've enjoyed many of it's recipes.

I've presented the worst case scenario - that's who I am.

Some of you have presented the best case scenario - that's who you are.

Marriott is going to present their best case scenario for their stockholders - that's who they are.

We all do what's best for them and everything works out fine...


----------



## jlf58

smart man 



dougp26364 said:


> Prepare to be surprised.
> 
> I'm betting the program isn't going to generate ANY sales comissions for the sales staff. Instead, it's going to put people in the seat for them to take a shot at increasing their ownership. I'd bet Marriott puts something in the way of an incentive to get owners to buy, much like they've been doing in the recent past.


----------



## Clark

DanCali said:


> Please try to find out the answer to the $100MM question... how does the inventory get allocated to the points system versus weeks.



OK I will get you this answer. Gimme a couple of weeks ---


----------



## tombo

duplicated by accident, deleted by me


----------



## tombo

dougp26364 said:


> Prepare to be surprised.
> 
> I'm betting the program isn't going to generate ANY sales comissions for the sales staff. Instead, it's going to put people in the seat for them to take a shot at increasing their ownership. I'd bet Marriott puts something in the way of an incentive to get owners to buy, much like they've been doing in the recent past.



I will be shocked! Like Perry eating crow, so will I, but I feel sure crow is not on my upcoming menu. 

Have you ever sold on purely commission basis or managed those who do? I have done both and there is NO WAY that they are going to sell the idea to commission salesmen that they need to really try hard to convince owners to convert to points while explaining to the salesmen that they will not make any money whether the owners convert to points or not. Those salesmen will be telling owners here's the program in a nutshell (as quickly as possible) and then ask you want to convert? Not sure? OK have a good day. You want to think about it? No problem have a good day. You think this is a bad program? I understand, have a good day. Just not sure huh? Feel free to call our 800 number when you decide, bye now.

Marriott has been in this game for years and they know their sales force works hard and sells a lot of inventory because they are paid well if they sell, and they are paid absolutelly NOTHING if they don't.When you are 100% commission the nice couple you personally like who politelly declines to buy just cost you a chance to have had a customer who would have purchased. They might have been likeable but too many of those will leave you broke and eventually fired for lack of production. The rude arrgant couple who you personally despise but who purchases from you earned you a paycheck and is the preferable choice of the two every time.

If Marriott tries to not pay the sales force WELL, the salesmen will revolt, quit, they will not try very hard to sell it to owners ,and the conversion will be a collossal failure. To think that salesmen will work hard to roll out a new program without being paid is like liberals who believe that capitalism is bad and that people will work just as hard without potential to make large incomes. The more income potential there is in a job, the harder and longer motivated people will work. If everyone gets paid the same thing no matter how hard you work or no matter whether you sell or not, why try hard? Good Marriott salesmen are used to making well over $100,000 a year, and Marriott is not going to ask or expect them to spend hours each day pushing a program without paying them very well to sell it.

Marriott is a capitalist company with stock holders who believe in profits and they are not going to roll out a program like this without incentivizing the sales force to the max to get the salesmen's  most enthusiastic sales presentations and to get them to agressivelly sell points while overcoming objections. Board meetings with Marriott stock holders would not go well if it was announced that they rolled out a new points program at millions of dollars in expenses for the good of the owners and that they don't plan on making major profits on a major overhaul of their timeshare system! This is a program designed by Marriott for no other reason than  to make profit for Marriott by fleecing current owners, and they will reward all who help them make this a success including mgt, the stockholders, and especially the sales force!

Oops, they won't actually reward everyone. Marriott is going to penalize weeks owners who won't pay the extortion and convert to points. JMHO.


----------



## FlyerBobcat

DanCali said:


> Please try to find out the answer to the $100MM question... how does the inventory get allocated to the points system versus weeks.
> 
> For example - say a resort has 2 seasons. Gold is 1-26 and Platinum is 27-52. Now half of the Platinum convert to points... do they (i) take half of each week from 27-52 into the points system? (ii) take the deeded weeks of those who converted to the points system. (iii) do they take the most desirable weeks to the points system (say all July, August, and holiday weeks).
> 
> If you can't get a straight answer, we'll have good reason to suspect there is some monkey business going on...



I will try.  Although disguised as an information session, I expect it to be a sales pitch with at least some level of pressure (although I was told it would not be).  The part on the ability to cancel was based on the fact that I know my wife will not be a fan of going to this.  I tried to schedule this "alone", but no dice....

Perry:  Loved your comments to me on a previous post. :rofl:


----------



## tombo

FlyerBobcat said:


> I will try.  Although disguised as an information session, I expect it to be a sales pitch with at least some level of pressure (although I was told it would not be).  The part on the ability to cancel was based on the fact that I know my wife will not be a fan of going to this.  I tried to schedule this "alone", but no dice....
> 
> Perry:  Loved your comments to me on a previous post. :rofl:



You have your answer already as to whether this is a sales presentation wth pressure, it is going to be. For informative meetings you can come alone. For sales meetings BOTH SPOUSES have to be there because they remove the objection of "I have to discuss it with my spouse" and they want to make sure they have the decision maker present so that they can overcome any objections that either spouse might have. This is going to be a sales presentation with pressure and I must be psychic because I feel sure that you will get a one time chance at your informative meeting to convert to points at an unbelievably low price price with additional bonus offers that will never be offered again lol.


----------



## PerryM

*Can we get real here.....*

Marriott is a hugely successful sales company - they sell reservations to hotel rooms that, most of the time, they don't own, they just manage and get a commission for doing so.

When folks talk about a sales company not offering commissions to their salesreps and magically that makes things better I question that logic.

If I were in Marriott's shoes and had to release this new sales system next week I would want it to go viral among the owners and that means enthusiastic salesreps who can trade in their 5-series BMW for a 7-series BMW and that means HUGE commissions.

It's the salesreps that will make or break this new sales system - for Marriott to hold hands with their owners and leave the salesreps to sit aside and hum Kumbaya is ludicrous to me.

I would expect the salesreps to work so hard that they have crashes in their 5-series BMW, get the insurance money and upgrade to a 7-series.

But that's just me...


----------



## dougp26364

JimIg23 said:


> I dont think this will be true.  A company wont (I should say shouldnt) ask their sales people to spend several hours a day to get owners to sign up for the new system and not get a penny out of it.  Unless the reps are going to be told not to worry about current owner conversions and Marriott will handle them over the phone or something.



Sure they will. It happens more often than you know. Sales is a numbers game. The more people you talk to, the greater the number of sales you'll make. Current owners are so much better prospects than Joe Tourist off the street coming in for a free gift. The conversion is what will get people back into the sales room instead of the free gift AND, it's getting better qualified prospects into the sales room AND it's getting people back into the saleroom who have purchased before. If we are to believe the numbers, which indicate only a small percentage are resale buyers, they'll be getting people who have purchased direct from Marriott back onto the sales floor. Add to this a program that Marriott is certain will have great appeal to it's owners and it's likely to be akin to shooting fish in a barrel for the really good salesmen.


----------



## dougp26364

tombo said:


> Have you ever sold on purely commission basis or managed those who do?



Yes I have. The good salesmen will see the advantage they gain. The poor salesmen will see it as a burden.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Marriott is a hugely successful sales company - they sell reservations to hotel rooms that, most of the time, they don't own, they just manage and get a commission for doing so.
> 
> When folks talk about a sales company not offering commissions to their salesreps and magically that makes things better I question that logic.
> 
> If I were in Marriott's shoes and had to release this new sales system next week I would want it to go viral among the owners and that means enthusiastic salesreps who can trade in their 5-series BMW for a 7-series BMW and that means HUGE commissions.
> 
> It's the salesreps that will make or break this new sales system - for Marriott to hold hands with their owners and leave the salesreps to sit aside and hum Kumbaya is ludicrous to me.
> 
> I would expect the salesreps to work so hard that they have crashes in their 5-series BMW, get the insurance money and upgrade to a 7-series.
> 
> But that's just me...



The conversion is simply replacing the free gift. What's so hard to understand about that logic? 

Have you ever set a trap? Did you put the trap out empty or did you put bait in the trap? If you set an empty trap, you'll get very little. Put something of interest in there to get people sniffing around and now you've got something. 

A salesman sells. Bring a salesman all the qualified buyers he can see in a day.....every day......and he'll be in hog heaven. The most difficult part of selling isn't selling, it's getting qualified prospects in front of you to sell. This will get all the qualified prospects they can handle in front of them for the next several years.


----------



## PerryM

*Which planet are we talking about?*

I feel like I'm on the set of a B-grade movie set on another planet.

Marriott will do what's best for their customers at the expense of their stockholders?

Marriott's sales reps will forgive commissions in order to spend quality time with an owner who is to pay more for what they already have?

Beam me up Scotty....


----------



## SueDonJ

I'm not sure why folks are expecting that owners will NEED to sit through a sales presentation in order to be able to join whatever new system might be rolled out.  We're almost halfway through this year and a whole lot of owners have already used their weeks, haven't they?   (We have.)  Plus our sales rep in Hilton Head has already told us to email or call her with any questions when it's rolled out.  She didn't say anything at all about seeing us again in the near future.

I don't think Marriott is going to expect any of us to schedule separate time from our owned weeks, using cash or MRP rentals, just to visit with our sales reps for this.  It appears they'll have to set it up as a "from home" email/telephone offer if they want participation from as many owners as possible.


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> I'm not sure why folks are expecting that owners will NEED to sit through a sales presentation in order to be able to join whatever new system might be rolled out.  We're almost halfway through this year and a whole lot of owners have already used their weeks, haven't they?   (We have.)  Plus our sales rep in Hilton Head has already told us to email or call her with any questions when it's rolled out.  She didn't say anything at all about seeing us again in the near future.
> 
> I don't think Marriott is going to expect any of us to schedule separate time from our owned weeks, using cash or MRP rentals, just to visit with our sales reps for this.  It appears they'll have to set it up as a "from home" email/telephone offer if they want participation from as many owners as possible.



If Marriott is using the latest sales tools then they will hold webinars like crazy.  Limit each to 1,000 owners and set up 2-hr slots and let folks just sign up and learn the new system.

I attend webinars daily and they always involve selling a product or service and about 1,000 folks seems to be what they shoot for.

Because of real estate laws they probably can't take orders on the internet and require a sales tour to sell them face to face; but the heavy lifting of educating 400,000 owners should be by webinar.

But who knows...


----------



## tombo

dougp26364 said:


> Sure they will. It happens more often than you know. Sales is a numbers game. The more people you talk to, the greater the number of sales you'll make. Current owners are so much better prospects than Joe Tourist off the street coming in for a free gift. The conversion is what will get people back into the sales room instead of the free gift AND, it's getting better qualified prospects into the sales room AND it's getting people back into the saleroom who have purchased before. If we are to believe the numbers, which indicate only a small percentage are resale buyers, they'll be getting people who have purchased direct from Marriott back onto the sales floor. Add to this a program that Marriott is certain will have great appeal to it's owners and it's likely to be akin to shooting fish in a barrel for the really good salesmen.



In order for the points to succeed, they need every saleperson as motivated as they can be to roll out this program, and that is done through paying them for converting owners. If the only interest (and income) sales people have in points conversions is to sell new weeks/points, then the second the customer convinces the sales person that they are not buying any additional inventory, then the sales people will care less about whether an owner converts to points or not. Marriott must convert large numbers of existing owners to points quickly for the program to work. If people convert and there is little inventory to exchange for next year, then the word will spread that the points system sucks on the internet and by the pool possibly killing it forever.


Marriott has a vested interest in converting owners to points, and I would be willing to place a BIG WAGER that the sales people will be PAID to convert current owners to points, and they will be paid well. I have never heard of a sales organization that expects commission sales people to sell a product for them for nothing hoping that by selling the first non compensated product that they can possibly sell a different product. It would never work. There is no motivation for them to push hard and overcome objections if someone is interested in a points conversion on currently owned week(s), but not interested in any new Marriott purchases. No way Marriott would roll out points conversions with no commission and expect an uncompensated sales force to try as hard as they can to convert as many owners as possible.


To compare using the points conversion presentation to gifting is like asking the salesmen to sell the gifts (points conversions) for no compensation, and then sell what pays their bills after trying to sell the gifts that got the owners to come to the presentation. You would have to make 2 sales to get paid for one (sell them on converting to points for free, then you would have to sell them more points to even get paid). That would never work and if you were a commision only salesman (as you said you have been), then you would never like that program or eagerly and enthusiastically push points conversions you weren't getting compensated for financially. It would be a lose-lose for Marriott's points programs and for the sales people. 

The sales people will be paid and probably paid better at the launch than they have ever been paid before to generate enthusiasm among the sales force. There will be launch bounses, goal attainment rewards, trips, cash, anything Marriott can do to launch this thing quickly and successfully. Right now at sales seminars all over the US Marriott salesmen are being pumped up listening to motivational speakers like Zig Ziglar, they have been promised the moon, right now  some hired singer is belting out "Ain't no mountain high enough", and they will have been totally  sold on the new program before they return to the sales floor. This is how commission sales works and this is how new products that must be sold by a sales force are rolled out. As I said I am willing to make a big wager.......


----------



## lopezcasa

*New Upcoming System for Marriott*

Sorry if this has been asked and answered in the 89 pages I didn't read all the way thru,  , how do you think this new system may affect Marriott helping to resell a property?  I have contacted them about selling my property in Maui and am on the list, but I was wondering if this will help or hinder my chances of getting it sold?
Thanks for any opinions.


----------



## DanCali

DanCali said:


> Please try to find out the answer to the $100MM question... how does the inventory get allocated to the points system versus weeks.
> 
> For example - say a resort has 2 seasons. Gold is 1-26 and Platinum is 27-52. Now half of the Platinum convert to points... do they (i) take half of each week from 27-52 into the points system? (ii) take the deeded weeks of those who converted to the points system. (iii) do they take the most desirable weeks to the points system (say all July, August, and holiday weeks).
> 
> If you can't get a straight answer, we'll have good reason to suspect there is some monkey business going on...






dougp26364 said:


> I know this isn't definitive but, my guess is it will be like other mixed use resorts. There are X number of points based ownership and X number of weeks based ownership for each season. As reservations are made, the tally is kept. If there are 100 points based weeks available once those weeks are reserved thats all that's available for that resort. My bet is it will still be first come, first served.
> 
> What will be tricky is if they give points based reseravtions a head start on reserving their weeks. While anything is possible, I don't see Marriott doing that to the weeks based owners. I could see some sort of multi week priority given for reservations like what Marriott currently does (13 months rather than 12 months).
> 
> Honestly, I own in a mixed use system and it's not been an issue for either owners in the weeks based reservations system or the points based reservations system. Contrary to the fear mongering that's gone on in this thread, I don't believe it will ever be the problem a few posters are trying to make it out to be.



In my opinion this is the biggest hotbutton issue and should not be underestimated.

Think of the 13 month rule. Would any high demand week be available to single week owners if inventory wasn't allocated in a somewhat fair manner. They make 50% of inventory available to the 13 month window, but even that is not enough, right? It has to be 50% of each week for it to work somewhat properly, otherwise all the good ski weeks will still be gone at 13 months, all summer NCV weeks, will be gone at 13 months etc. 

It is no different here - you have a new class of owners that has to have their inventory maintained separately. The way described by Doug26364 above, it leaves open the theoretical possibility that points owners may get all the good weeks in a season or vice versa. IMO inventory has to be completely separated, and in a fair manner, for this to even have a remote chance of working properly. 

"Fair manner" would be that if 22% of owners in a particular season convert, they take 22% of each week in that season for the points system reservations. It's fair because (i) it's hard to point out otherwise  , and (ii) any other manner has the potential to put some class of owners at a disadvantage.


----------



## PerryM

*What?*



DanCali said:


> In my opinion this is the biggest hotbutton issue and should not be underestimated.
> 
> Think of the 13 month rule. Would any high demand week be available to single week owners if inventory wasn't allocated in a somewhat fair manner. They make 50% of inventory available to the 13 month window, but even that is not enough, right? It has to be 50% of each week for it to work somewhat properly, otherwise all the good ski weeks will still be gone at 13 months, all summer NCV weeks, will be gone at 13 months etc.
> 
> It is no different here - you have a new class of owners that has to have their inventory maintained separately. The way described by Doug26364 above, it leaves open the theoretical possibility that points owners may get all the good weeks in a season or vice versa. IMO inventory has to be completely separated, and in a fair manner, for this to even have a remote chance of working properly.
> 
> "Fair manner" would be that if 22% of owners in a particular season convert, they take 22% of each week in that season for the points system reservations. It's fair because (i) it's hard to point out otherwise  , and (ii) any other manner has the potential to put some class of owners at a disadvantage.



OMG the word Fair and Timeshare Developer in the same sentence?

Marriott is going to play by the rules and take all 13 month "hot" weeks before any owner who decides to not join.

Same with the 12 month inventory.

Show me the words "Fair" in any of the documents that spell out how Marriott and the non-joining members interact.  I can't wait....


----------



## tombo

dougp26364 said:


> The conversion is simply replacing the free gift. What's so hard to understand about that logic?
> 
> Have you ever set a trap? Did you put the trap out empty or did you put bait in the trap? If you set an empty trap, you'll get very little. Put something of interest in there to get people sniffing around and now you've got something.
> 
> A salesman sells. Bring a salesman all the qualified buyers he can see in a day.....every day......and he'll be in hog heaven. The most difficult part of selling isn't selling, it's getting qualified prospects in front of you to sell. This will get all the qualified prospects they can handle in front of them for the next several years.



As I said, you are asking the salesmen to sell the free gift for nothing. Your theory gets a qualified prospect in front of the sales people by offering a gift (the opportunity to convert weeks to points), that the sales person has to sell, but Marriott will not pay them to convince the owner to convert (receive their gift). Can you imagine if they had to get money out of the prospects for the "free" Disney tickets before they could even have a chance to sell something that they would be paid on? 

The sales force will be paid commission to convert owners or they would not discuss conversions with owners and it would instead be handled in the mail or by 800 numbers. The sales force will be paid without a doubt because as we all know sales people will be needed to convince large numbers of owners to convert a week they already own, into a points program with no proven track record, and in the process convince them to pay thousands for the priviledge of becoming a  Marriott Points Member!


----------



## DanCali

PerryM said:


> OMG the word Fair and Timeshare Developer in the same sentence?
> 
> Marriott is going to play by the rules and take all 13 month "hot" weeks before any owner who decides to not join.
> 
> Same with the 12 month inventory.
> 
> Show me the words "Fair" in any of the documents that spell out how Marriott and the non-joining members interact.  I can't wait....



I have no doubt they may do this when it comes to the weeks they need to secure for themselves (e.g. from point conversions).

As to the balance between weeks and points, they probably need to tread more carefully on that front. Playing favorites is a dangerous game...


----------



## PerryM

DanCali said:


> I have no doubt they may do this when it comes to the weeks they need to secure for themselves (e.g. from point conversions).
> 
> As to the balance between weeks and points, they probably need to tread more carefully on that front. Playing favorites is a dangerous game...



OMG there's that word again Fair (by inference).

Marriott has made it perfectly clear that I am their worst enemy - the Marriott owner.  They bash me every chance they get - they bash resales and that's me.

Marriott will take much delight in screwing the resale owner by making it so impossible to vacation that the owner will finally succumb and convert.

How will the folks who don't convert express an outrage?  Lawsuits which will be filed in abundance; and who pays for all those lawsuits?  We all know it's the owners.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> If Marriott is using the latest sales tools then they will hold webinars like crazy.  Limit each to 1,000 owners and set up 2-hr slots and let folks just sign up and learn the new system.
> 
> I attend webinars daily and they always involve selling a product or service and about 1,000 folks seems to be what they shoot for.
> 
> Because of real estate laws they probably can't take orders on the internet and require a sales tour to sell them face to face; but the heavy lifting of educating 400,000 owners should be by webinar.
> 
> But who knows...



But what I'm saying is, our sales rep didn't give any indication that it will be necessary to talk to her at all!  She said we can call/email her IF we have questions when we're notified, which makes me think that this will be offered to us the same way as other promotions, in email or snail mail.  She just didn't give us the impression that some of you have, that it's going to require a sales associate's assistance and/or that they'll be inspired by commissions for conversions of existing weeks.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> In my opinion this is the biggest hotbutton issue and should not be underestimated.
> 
> Think of the 13 month rule. Would any high demand week be available to single week owners if inventory wasn't allocated in a somewhat fair manner. They make 50% of inventory available to the 13 month window, but even that is not enough, right? It has to be 50% of each week for it to work somewhat properly, otherwise all the good ski weeks will still be gone at 13 months, all summer NCV weeks, will be gone at 13 months etc.
> 
> It is no different here - you have a new class of owners that has to have their inventory maintained separately. The way described by Doug26364 above, it leaves open the theoretical possibility that points owners may get all the good weeks in a season or vice versa. IMO inventory has to be completely separated, and in a fair manner, for this to even have a remote chance of working properly.
> 
> "Fair manner" would be that if 22% of owners in a particular season convert, they take 22% of each week in that season for the points system reservations. It's fair because (i) it's hard to point out otherwise  , and (ii) any other manner has the potential to put some class of owners at a disadvantage.



I expect it will work exactly as you suggest, Dan, that they'll have to account for the points/weeks inventory according to how many owners belong to each pool.  But I don't expect a problem with them doing that - has there ever been any indication that they've played fast and loose with the 12/13-month inventory?  I've never seen anything on TUG to suggest that, even though it would be to their advantage to do so because it could result in more multi-week owners.


----------



## RandR

SueDonJ said:


> But what I'm saying is, our sales rep didn't give any indication that it will be necessary to talk to her at all!  She said we can call/email her IF we have questions when we're notified, which makes me think that this will be offered to us the same way as other promotions, in email or snail mail.  She just didn't give us the impression that some of you have, that it's going to require a sales associate's assistance and/or that they'll be inspired by commissions for conversions of existing weeks.



You are likely right that there will not be a NEED to see a salesperson but I am sure that Marriott would prefer if you do.  (I don't mean you personally but owners in general.)  It will be a great opportunity for them to sell more.  Think of the situation where someone gets 20,000 points for their ts but having 25,000 would open them up to many more possible choices.  Bam, how would you like to buy some more points?  Oh and by the way, if you take advantage of our one time only conversion special, you get a 10% discount on those points.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> But I don't expect a problem with them doing that - has there ever been any indication that they've played fast and loose with the 12/13-month inventory?



I can't really answer that since I don't have access to their computer systems. By default that makes the answer to your question a "No".

The "smell test" will be what Marriott says about the handling of inventory, how consistent it is, and what they are willing to put in writing.

My opinion is that this will be a sensitive issue and we won't get a clear cut answer... I can't even see how anyone would consider converting without knowing how the inventory is allocated - I mean putting razzle and dazzle aside, how does this really work? I hope we get more transparency than that but, as Perry would probably say, transparency from a developer may be an oxymoron.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> I can't really answer that since I don't have access to their computer systems. By default that makes the answer to your question a "No".
> 
> The "smell test" will be what Marriott says about the handling of inventory, how consistent it is, and what they are willing to put in writing.
> 
> My opinion is that this will be a sensitive issue and we won't get a clear cut answer... I can't even see how anyone would consider converting without knowing how the inventory is allocated - I mean putting razzle and dazzle aside, how does this really work? I hope we get more transparency than that but, as Perry would probably say, transparency from a developer may be an oxymoron.



Honestly, I don't see a problem with being on the lookout for problems with how Marriott handles the inventory after (if) this new thing is rolled out, but I just don't get the expectation that they WILL incorrectly handle it in order to generate sales.  Within the current system we've not had to worry about all this despite the fact that there isn't anything in writing that we can point to for how they handle 12/13-month inventory.  Why are some so willing to believe that they'll finagle it purposely to hurt the folks who don't convert?  What is in their past history to lead to that expectation?

I know we didn't ask for any guarantee in writing about how inventory is handled when we purchased more than one week in order to be able to take advantage of the 13-mo rule.  If everything with this new system appears to be as legitimate and is a usage improvement over what we own currently, then I won't feel like I have to ask for such a written guarantee before converting.  YMMV, of course, but Marriott's consistent history with a good product and a good system holds some water with me.  The only thing they'll HAVE to sell me on is that whatever gets rolled out works better for me.


----------



## PerryM

SueDonJ said:


> But what I'm saying is, our sales rep didn't give any indication that it will be necessary to talk to her at all!  She said we can call/email her IF we have questions when we're notified, which makes me think that this will be offered to us the same way as other promotions, in email or snail mail.  She just didn't give us the impression that some of you have, that it's going to require a sales associate's assistance and/or that they'll be inspired by commissions for conversions of existing weeks.



This is great news!

Do-it-yourself weeks to points conversion.

I sure hope the instructions are not in Chinese.

I suppose a website could have all the docs and instructions on how to print out the forms transferring ownership from you to the Marriott trust.

Then which docs to have notarized and how to send the docs via Priority Mail.

I guess it could be done and this would be my dream come true


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Why are some so willing to believe that they'll finagle it purposely to hurt the folks who don't convert?  What is in their past history to lead to that expectation?
> 
> ...The only thing they'll HAVE to sell me on is that whatever gets rolled out works better for me.



It doesn't have to be "finagling" (which can go either way). It could be that because of whatever legal issues (as Fredm raised last week) the inventory could favor one class of owners over the other, whether it's weeks over points or points over weeks. In fact, this can vary by state...

All I am saying is that this is an important issue that needs to be factored into the decision to convert or not. In order to be factored in, one needs to first understand the issue and how things will work. In order to do that, one needs the details; blind faith in Marriott will not cut it - at least not for me. To me, this is a much more important issue to understand than how many Marriott Rewards points one gets for converting...


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> It doesn't have to be "finagling" (which can go either way). It could be that because of whatever legal issues (as Fredm raised last week) the inventory could favor one class of owners over the other, whether it's weeks over points or points over weeks. In fact, this can vary by state...
> 
> All I am saying is that this is an important issue that needs to be factored into the decision to convert or not. In order to be factored in, one needs to first understand the issue and how things will work. In order to do that, one needs the details; *blind faith in Marriott will not cut it* - at least not for me. To me, this is a much more important issue to understand than how many Marriott Rewards points one gets for converting...



Of course, which is why I said that ".. if everything with this new system appears to be as legitimate ..." then they won't have to put that one inventory issue into writing in order for me to consider the new points system.


----------



## PerryM

*The game of Tetris holds the key*



SueDonJ said:


> Honestly, I don't see a problem with being on the lookout for problems with how Marriott handles the inventory after (if) this new thing is rolled out, but I just don't get the expectation that they WILL incorrectly handle it in order to generate sales.  Within the current system we've not had to worry about all this despite the fact that there isn't anything in writing that we can point to for how they handle 12/13-month inventory.  Why are some so willing to believe that they'll finagle it purposely to hurt the folks who don't convert?  What is in their past history to lead to that expectation?
> 
> I know we didn't ask for any guarantee in writing about how inventory is handled when we purchased more than one week in order to be able to take advantage of the 13-mo rule.  If everything with this new system appears to be as legitimate and is a usage improvement over what we own currently, then I won't feel like I have to ask for such a written guarantee before converting.  YMMV, of course, but Marriott's consistent history with a good product and a good system holds some water with me.  The only thing they'll HAVE to sell me on is that whatever gets rolled out works better for me.



Ever play Tetris on your cell phone?  I do when waiting in line and it hurts just to stare at the wall.

Well Tetris has multi-colored blocks falling in a random location and you use past fallen blocks to build upon.

Marriott doesn't have to actually confirm a reservation in order for it to show up in the rental calendar - it can just hold it there in limbo waiting for other reservations to form long 13-month links which will snag ALL 13 month inventory for hot weeks.

If a non-member tries to make a reservation then the chain will be locked in and the reservation system will play Tetris again.

There is nothing wrong with this and checking your deed will find no mention that Marriott can't play these games.

Will Marriott do it?  Don't know but I sure would if my sales reps spent all day selling New Year's week to everyone walking through the door.

Marriott hasn't had any vested interest in reservations before and that's why they dumped exchanging over to II.  Now they do.


----------



## tombo

When Marriott rolls out the new program I feel sure that they will announce that from this point forward only points will be sold by Marriott, and that any new resorts built will only be available to Marriott points owners along with the if you don't convert eventually you will have nothing to trade for since everyone is converting and all inventory will be in points, etc, etc,blah, blah, blah. 

I am sure that they will explain how resale owners will be missing out on the new points exchange program in some form or fashion from what they have been saying about resales over the past months. I hope someone here will quiz them on what disadvantages resale weeks will have from this point forward. Will new resale weeks not be allowed to convert to points? Will resale weeks be more expensive to convert to points. If you convert you week to points and sell it will the points transfer to your resale buyer or revert to weeks? For months they have threatened that resale weeks would be devalued and that resale owners would not get the same perks as retail owners once the points were rolled out. Now I am curious as to what (if any) punishment they have in place for those of us who purchased resale.


----------



## taffy19

PerryM said:


> If Marriott is using the latest sales tools then they will hold webinars like crazy. Limit each to 1,000 owners and set up 2-hr slots and let folks just sign up and learn the new system.
> 
> I attend webinars daily and they always involve selling a product or service and about 1,000 folks seems to be what they shoot for.
> 
> Because of real estate laws they probably can't take orders on the internet and require a sales tour to sell them face to face; but the heavy lifting of educating 400,000 owners should be by webinar.
> 
> But who knows...


Did anyone receive this invitation? I didn't see any comments but it takes place on June 16 which happens to be the week that the new system will be announced supposedly. I wished I had signed up but left it too late and now the link is dead. I am almost positive that it was for the 16th and I was going to sign up later as I was curious what they were going to pitch on that date.

I left a call to see if I can still sign up for it.

Subject: Exclusive Owner Event from Marriott Vacation Club

*Dear xxxxxx,*

It is my pleasure to invite you to join fellow new Owners for a web based seminar (webinar) that will discuss how to exchange your Marriott Vacation Club week through Interval International to experience a new destination. 

Each year, over 40% of Marriott Vacation Club owners exchange their week(s) with Interval International, our exchange partner. This webinar will cover the different exchange methods, comparability factors, the Travel Demand index, and tips and tricks to help you comfirm your vacation with Interval International. I am confident that you will have a greater understanding of how to maximize your vacation ownership with Marriott Vacation Club after participating in our webinar.

The webinar is complimentary: all you need is a computer with access to the internet. To register for our Owner Webinar, please *click here* and then click on the red "Learn about Upcoming Webinars" button. 

Sincerely,







Jennifer deRosier 
Director of Education 
Marriott Vacation Club International


PS.  I received this email on May 24, 2010.


----------



## taffy19

RandR said:


> You are likely right that there will not be a NEED to see a salesperson but I am sure that Marriott would prefer if you do. (I don't mean you personally but owners in general.) It will be a great opportunity for them to sell more. Think of the situation where someone gets 20,000 points for their ts but having 25,000 would open them up to many more possible choices. Bam, how would you like to buy some more points? Oh and by the way, if you take advantage of our one time only conversion special, you get a 10% discount on those points.


It may stay the same as it is now and they will ask you, when you arrive, if you want to do an update. The choice is yours but they may tell you that they have many enhancements to the program with some special incentives too so that you will get curious. Most people have no clue that changes are coming.

They will explain the new program and the person can convert his week or weeks and pay a conversion fee but they are offered to buy a new point package at the same time too and the more money is spent, the lower the conversion fee will be and it may be free if you buy the equivalent of a former full week at any of the existing resorts.

I still believe that they have to keep the two inventories completely separated and there has to be a way that every week owner will always be able to reserve a full week at the resort where he bought or Marriott will breached their original contract. They may have to give first shot to a week owner at his resort and the split weeks can be reserved after that. How else can they do this?

There may still be another way to treat the most loyal week owners, like they did before, but every week owner is entitled to their full week at the resort in the season they bought and for the size unit and view they bought too. They cannot change that.


----------



## DanCali

iconnections said:


> There may still be another way to treat the most loyal week owners, like they did before, but every week owner is entitled to their full week at the resort in the season they bought and for the size unit and view they bought too. They cannot change that.



So if one owns at NCV and Marriott keeps Sep, Oct and Nov Platinum weeks for weeks owners and take July, Aug, and Dec weeks for points owners (assuming 50% converted) that satisfies the requirement you state... "every week owner is gets a full week at the resort in the season they bought in the size unit and view they bought...".

Does this seem like a good solution for the weeks owners? Not all weeks in a given season are created equal... This is why I have been stressing that this issue is crucial.

Unless they take an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) I can't see how this would work.


----------



## taffy19

DanCali said:


> So if one owns at NCV and Marriott keeps Sep, Oct and Nov Platinum weeks for weeks owners and take July, Aug, and Dec weeks for points owners (assuming 50% converted) that satisfies the requirement you state... "every week owner is gets a full week at the resort in the season they bought in the size unit and view they bought...".
> 
> Does this seem like a good solution for the weeks owners? Not all weeks in a given season are created equal... This is why I have been stressing that this issue is crucial.
> 
> Unless they take an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) I can't see how this would work.


That would be terrible if they did that so I don't believe that this will happen. Everything should stay in balance in weeks, seasons, sizes and views but only the percentages of the weeks put in one pool to the other will change depending on how many people switch. I hope that a computer program is smart enough to do this.

Doug is the expert here as he owns at several point systems and it seems to work according to him and you don't read many complaints about it. If the person designed it, who worked for Disney, then I would have confidence. Do you hear complaints from Disney owners?

They do not even lose much resale value either so I keep hoping that ours will not suffer either. Nobody has control over the economy so that is not Marriott's fault or any other developers'.

The big question is are direct and re-sale buyers treated equally or not except for the MRPs? If they convert, will they become a member of the MRPs too? I assume they will so that makes them equal.


----------



## DanCali

iconnections said:


> Do you hear complaints from Disney owners?



No, but Disney doesn't have to worry about "legacy" weeks owners.

Marriott is rewriting 20 years of history with a single brush stroke...


----------



## tombo

iconnections said:


> Doug is the expert here as he owns at several point systems and it seems to work according to him and you don't read many complaints about it. If the person designed it, who worked for Disney, then I would have confidence. Do you hear complaints from Disney owners?
> 
> .



If the DVC members who purchased points were suddenly faced with paying big money to convert their points to weeks, and if the NEW weeks program would have advantages and benefits not available to those who refused to convert their DVC points to weeks, yes you would hear plenty of  complaints. If the DVC people who converted to weeks had access to inventory before the original DVC points members, if the people who converted to weeks had the only access to any new resorts Disney will build in the future, if the DVC sales reps announced that points were antiquated and going to be of less and less value compared to weeks, and if the new weeks program was the only thing DVC was selling from next week forward, the DVC boards would be lit up and the complaints would be deafening.

DVC launched a points program, sold it to members, kept true to their product, and honored what they promised in their sales presentations. Of course DVC mmembers aren't mad, they got exactly what they purchased. 

Marriott on the other hand sold weeks, promised home resort advantages, sold Marriott owners only exchange periods with II, and many other things Marriott sold and implied with their weeks program. Now to make money they are changing their entire system and charging members to convert or lose trade availability and who knows what else. Gosh why would someone be mad that they were sold a lifetime of vacations with the Marriott family and then have Marriott decide that the lifetime they were referring to was in dog years?


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> No, but Disney doesn't have to worry about "legacy" weeks owners.
> 
> Marriott is rewriting 20 years of history with a single brush stroke...



Granted, DVC holds its resale value much better than any other system but I believe that's because of what DVC owners have posted here, that DVC has a vested interest in keeping their (at least onsite at WDW and DL) timeshare resorts competitive with the Disney hotels.  DVC is a prime example of exercised ROFR impacting resales to a great extent because DVC resale buyers aren't necessarily looking for the best available timeshare in the region, they're looking for the best price possible for a Disney timeshare.  If they're consistently undercut by Disney exercising ROFR they don't move on to another system, they increase their offers for DVC points until they're not undercut.  Or they give up and buy direct.   

But Disney will eventually have some worries greater than even the impact this poor economy has had on DVC resales (which are currently hovering at record low prices for the earliest resorts.)  I think the possibility exists for some degree of m/f non-payments as DVC owners' contracts near the termination dates of their RTU points.  Last year OKW (the first DVC resort) owners were offered an opportunity to extend their contracts for a price but not all owners elected to extend.


----------



## l2trade

DanCali said:


> So if one owns at NCV and Marriott keeps Sep, Oct and Nov Platinum weeks for weeks owners and take July, Aug, and Dec weeks for points owners (assuming 50% converted) that satisfies the requirement you state... "every week owner is gets a full week at the resort in the season they bought in the size unit and view they bought...".
> 
> Does this seem like a good solution for the weeks owners? Not all weeks in a given season are created equal... This is why I have been stressing that this issue is crucial.
> 
> Unless they take an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) I can't see how this would work.



I agree an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) is better than totally scamming NCV platinum owners.  It could be an ok compromise, if and only if, owners vote and approve of the new points system and associated rule changes.  

It is not fair for a management company to implement any new program that segregates the owner base without proper and prior HOA/owner approval.  Folks who bought NCV platinum season bought into the floating season concept with the large sample of total units & owners in mind.  

I covered a hypothetical situation similar to this here:  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115395


----------



## taffy19

Disney was obviously not a good example but the Disney guy did the program for Marriott and people seem to like that system so I am optimistic that he designed a program that people will want to convert to because the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. It will not be perfect.

Also, there are other systems that have converted and do we hear many complaints about them? I am not aware of it. There will be a problem if owners are going to be treated unequally and then you will hear many complaints and the word will go out and certainly here. The best prospect is the customer they have already and they know that.

Who says that the conversion will be very expensive? I doubt it if they want many people to convert very quickly. The more people convert, the better the new program will work. If it doesn't go fast enough, they may even drop the price for the conversion like they have done the last two years with the condo prices.


----------



## tombo

iconnections said:


> Who says that the conversion will be very expensive? I doubt it if they want many people to convert very quickly. The more people convert, the better the new program will work. If it doesn't go fast enough, they may even drop the price for the conversion like they have done the last two years with the condo prices.



If I am wrong and the entry price is reasonable I will gladly eat my words and probably join (after finding out the details) for 3 years with the option to renew as long as I keep my deeded week whether I decide to remain in points or return to weeks at the end of the 3 year trial. 

Most resorts I am familiar with charge $1000's to convert weeks to points which is what i am assuming Marriott will do. If they allow you to join for $300 or less with $200 or less per year in internal exchange fees and administration costs, I will probably join and my posts will have been much ado about nothing. I hope that is the case.


----------



## l2trade

I think Disney is a great example in that DVC points program is what all owners bought and agreed to.  I am not a fan of unilateral and secretive developer changes such as this, that impact and divides up the reservation system for all owners without at least an owner vote approving of said change.


----------



## PerryM

*What's for leftovers tonight?*



l2trade said:


> I agree an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) is better than totally scamming NCV platinum owners.  It could be an ok compromise, if and only if, owners vote and approve of the new points system and associated rule changes.
> 
> It is not fair for a management company to implement any new program that segregates the owner base without proper and prior HOA/owner approval.  Folks who bought NCV platinum season bought into the floating season concept with the large sample of total units & owners in mind.
> 
> I covered a hypothetical situation similar to this here:  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115395



Folks, look at your deed and it simply states you can make a reservation, of 7 days or a 4/3 split, during your SEASON.  I sure don't remember anything else promised.

Marriott will stick to that - you can have the worst week in your season and it will take all the best.

There's nothing to stop them that I can think of, and they can use a hundred thousand units to make 13 month and 12 month reservations a snap for their members.

Well, unless Marriott morphs into a warm and fuzzy timeshare developer...

It's like others here say - "They can't take that ability away from you" - correct you are entitled to leftovers.


----------



## taffy19

l2trade said:


> I agree an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) is better than totally scamming NCV platinum owners. It could be an ok compromise, if and only if, owners vote and approve of the new points system and associated rule changes.
> 
> It is not fair for a management company to implement any new program that segregates the owner base without proper and prior HOA/owner approval. Folks who bought NCV platinum season bought into the floating season concept with the large sample of total units & owners in mind.
> 
> I covered a hypothetical situation similar to this here: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115395


I believe that a smart computer program can keep track of every resort of the weeks they have in their seasons. They will have to do the same for the view units too and the sizes or am I wrong here? No wonder it took them so long.

What about all the different arrival and departure dates that we didn't have before? I can assure you that maintenance fees will go up a lot with this new flexible system because of the extra staff they need to do the housekeeping plus the wear and tear.

Did I read somewhere yesterday that there are a lot of delinquencies too so that is another cost that the owners will have to bear.  Owning a timeshare is becoming a burden _and especially where the developers stays in charge_. JMHO.


----------



## SueDonJ

The reason I brought up Disney's future problems with RTU contacts expiring isn't to say that it would be a bad idea for Marriott to use Disney's template as an overlay exchange system, but rather to say that every system has its good and bad points.  I think Disney is a very good example of how Marriott could roll this out - DVC points are connected to a home resort and they cannot sell more points than what a particular resort's intervals will support.  If Marriott did implement something like this then it could be a simple points overlay system for exchanges rather than a trust system, which appears to be the most difficult to marry with a weeks-based system.

Disney does somehow manage to equitably handle their inventory between owners staying at their home resort on points (with a reservation priority over owners of other DVC resorts,) owners staying at other DVC resorts on points, owners staying at Disney hotels or cruise line on points, Disney-processed external exchanges within RCI, and cash rentals split between developer-held points and owners points deposited for external exchanges, all the while keeping resale values stronger than any other timeshare system's.  What's to say Marriott can't manage to do the same thing, except that Marriott will also have to equitably manage "legacy weeks" at the same time.  It can be done, I'm convinced of that, and at a certain price point it will be seen by weeks owners as a fair value.  We can't know what that price point is for us individually until the details are made available, but I don't think that a person has to go solely on blind faith in order to think that there's a possibility Marriott could be doing something good here.


----------



## taffy19

PerryM said:


> Folks, look at your deed and it simply states you can make a reservation, of 7 days or a 4/3 split, during your SEASON. I sure don't remember anything else promised.
> 
> Marriott will stick to that - you can have the worst week in your season and it will take all the best.
> 
> There's nothing to stop them that I can think of, and they can use a hundred thousand units to make 13 month and 12 month reservations a snap for their members.
> 
> Well, unless Marriott morphs into a warm and fuzzy timeshare developer...
> 
> It's like others here say - "They can't take that ability away from you" - correct you are entitled to leftovers.


I don't believe it Perry. They would shoot themselves in the foot to make all their present customers upset. It would hurt their bottom line. They need happy customers as they are their best prospects.


----------



## dougp26364

SueDonJ said:


> I'm not sure why folks are expecting that owners will NEED to sit through a sales presentation in order to be able to join whatever new system might be rolled out.  We're almost halfway through this year and a whole lot of owners have already used their weeks, haven't they?   (We have.)  Plus our sales rep in Hilton Head has already told us to email or call her with any questions when it's rolled out.  She didn't say anything at all about seeing us again in the near future.
> 
> I don't think Marriott is going to expect any of us to schedule separate time from our owned weeks, using cash or MRP rentals, just to visit with our sales reps for this.  It appears they'll have to set it up as a "from home" email/telephone offer if they want participation from as many owners as possible.



I'm sure they won't. But they will leverage it to get you into a sales presentation when people normally wouldn't go.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> If Marriott is using the latest sales tools then they will hold webinars like crazy.  Limit each to 1,000 owners and set up 2-hr slots and let folks just sign up and learn the new system.
> 
> I attend webinars daily and they always involve selling a product or service and about 1,000 folks seems to be what they shoot for.
> 
> Because of real estate laws they probably can't take orders on the internet and require a sales tour to sell them face to face; but the heavy lifting of educating 400,000 owners should be by webinar.
> 
> But who knows...



If it's just joining a points based membership, it's apparently legal. I never set foot into a DRI sales room to convert our Polo Towers weeks to points. It was all done over the phone. For that matter, doesn't Marriott have a department that sells over the phone? And how do all those E-bay sales take place? I thought E-bay was on the internet.


----------



## dougp26364

tombo said:


> As I said, you are asking the salesmen to sell the free gift for nothing. Your theory gets a qualified prospect in front of the sales people by offering a gift (the opportunity to convert weeks to points), that the sales person has to sell, but Marriott will not pay them to convince the owner to convert (receive their gift). Can you imagine if they had to get money out of the prospects for the "free" Disney tickets before they could even have a chance to sell something that they would be paid on?
> 
> The sales force will be paid commission to convert owners or they would not discuss conversions with owners and it would instead be handled in the mail or by 800 numbers. The sales force will be paid without a doubt because as we all know sales people will be needed to convince large numbers of owners to convert a week they already own, into a points program with no proven track record, and in the process convince them to pay thousands for the priviledge of becoming a  Marriott Points Member!



Having worked in both sales and sales management, I can tell you you're wrong. If there is any sort of payment it's going to be a token payment. The big draw is getting people into the sales room and they're going to leverage this to accomplish this goal. 

The goal isn't going to be making money on the conversion. The goal is to make new sales......period.


----------



## rthib

*can we stop the nonsense now*

so now that two of the supposed deadlines have passed, can we admit that there is nothing to this nonsense.

Right niw in order to believe this you have to believe that Marriott has super secret security that noone has been able to penatrate except for a few sales reps.

no one else anywhere but hear is even hinting about this.

go on with your lives, this is nothing more than the 5(or sixth) aniversery of this same rumor.


----------



## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> I'm sure they won't. But they will leverage it to get you into a sales presentation when people normally wouldn't go.



But don't they already do that?  We were at SurfWatch a couple weeks ago and I had every intention of meeting with our sales rep while we there just to catch up and see if she could help us with our MRP use.  I sent her an email before we got there to let her know I'd be looking for her and she answered that she was looking forward to it.

Then a couple days before the trip we got a call from the SurfWatch "concierge" asking if we needed anything.  I told her we'd be talking to our sales rep and were fine otherwise.  She pushed the "sales presentation" anyway and said we could schedule our appointment with our sales rep as an informational session.  "Fine, but we're not buying anything and she already knows that."

Well of course we got to the appointment and our sales rep, who I think is GREAT, was confused why we scheduled a sales appointment!  She'd prepared for us and had a few weeks in mind that would work with our portfolio, as she should have if the concierge told her we scheduled a sales call.  It only took a few minutes of explaining before she and we were on the same page and we got the MRP answers we were there for.  In the future we'll make sure to schedule directly with her for info sessions, rather than relying on the "concierge" to blindside her or us.

(Tom, be prepared, it sounds like you might be walking in to the same setup.  And for what it's worth, there are already all sorts of celebratory signs up because it's the 25th MVCI anniversary.)


----------



## PerryM

iconnections said:


> I don't believe it Perry. They would shoot themselves in the foot to make all their present customers upset. It would hurt their bottom line. They need happy customers as they are their best prospects.



How will folks know?  Who will tell them they are getting screwed?

Most owners will simply believe that Marriott would never do such a thing and blame something else - bad luck, global warming, oil spills, etc.


----------



## dougp26364

RandR said:


> You are likely right that there will not be a NEED to see a salesperson but I am sure that Marriott would prefer if you do.  (I don't mean you personally but owners in general.)  It will be a great opportunity for them to sell more.  Think of the situation where someone gets 20,000 points for their ts but having 25,000 would open them up to many more possible choices.  Bam, how would you like to buy some more points?  Oh and by the way, if you take advantage of our one time only conversion special, you get a 10% discount on those points.



Finally someone with a thinking cap on. If Marriott is selling strictly points similar to DVC, then they can sell partial weeks (thus no use for EOY weeks anymore) of points packages. DRI doesn't sell weeks. They sell points packages in 5,000, 10,000 and 15,000 groups. 

You're week will be worth X number of points in the new program Mr. Jones. Where do you like to vacation the most. How would you like to be able to go there during high season every year without worry about exchange power. Well, you're week is worth this, it's going to take that to get there. All you would need are a few more thousand points.........

The conversion is a sales tool........not the sale.


----------



## taffy19

SueDonJ said:


> The reason I brought up Disney's future problems with RTU contacts expiring isn't to say that it would be a bad idea for Marriott to use Disney's template as an overlay exchange system, but rather to say that every system has its good and bad points. I think Disney is a very good example of how Marriott could roll this out - DVC points are connected to a home resort and they cannot sell more points than what a particular resort's intervals will support. If Marriott did implement something like this then it could be a simple points overlay system for exchanges rather than a trust system, which appears to be the most difficult to marry with a weeks-based system.
> 
> Disney does somehow manage to equitably handle their inventory between owners staying at their home resort on points (with a reservation priority over owners of other DVC resorts,) owners staying at other DVC resorts on points, owners staying at Disney hotels or cruise line on points, Disney-processed external exchanges within RCI, and cash rentals split between developer-held points and owners points deposited for external exchanges, all the while keeping resale values stronger than any other timeshare system's. What's to say Marriott can't manage to do the same thing, except that Marriott will also have to equitably manage "legacy weeks" at the same time. It can be done, I'm convinced of that, and at a certain price point it will be seen by weeks owners as a fair value. We can't know what that price point is for us individually until the details are made available, but I don't think that a person has to go solely on blind faith in order to think that there's a possibility Marriott could be doing something good here.


I see it exactly the same way as you. People paid very different prices from one resort to another and the same for the different seasons, sizes of units as well as view. There is no way that they can disregard this all of the sudden and reservations are made on the first come, first service basis from here on with the point system.

There has to be some type home resort priority because of the big price difference when you bought but not for making an internal exchange to another resort. It has to be like an overlay over the old system. It's too complicated for me so may as well wait untill they finally announce the new system.

Do people, who do not convert, eventually are at a big disadvantage? That would be a big worry and people are not going to be happy about that because the system was changed after 20 or so years and nobody expected that this could happen.


----------



## PerryM

rthib said:


> so now that two of the supposed deadlines have passed, can we admit that there is nothing to this nonsense.
> 
> Right niw in order to believe this you have to believe that Marriott has super secret security that noone has been able to penatrate except for a few sales reps.
> 
> no one else anywhere but hear is even hinting about this.
> 
> go on with your lives, this is nothing more than the 5(or sixth) aniversery of this same rumor.



All the TV shows are in reruns except a few on FOX to save the day.  I like Burn Notice - I get helpful tips on how to do all kinds of neat things I just never seem to get around to doing; blowing up things, dodging assassins, then there's all the lessons on wiretaps - I take copious notes.

This is a substitute...


----------



## dougp26364

SueDonJ said:


> Honestly, I don't see a problem with being on the lookout for problems with how Marriott handles the inventory after (if) this new thing is rolled out, but I just don't get the expectation that they WILL incorrectly handle it in order to generate sales.  Within the current system we've not had to worry about all this despite the fact that there isn't anything in writing that we can point to for how they handle 12/13-month inventory.  Why are some so willing to believe that they'll finagle it purposely to hurt the folks who don't convert?  What is in their past history to lead to that expectation?
> 
> I know we didn't ask for any guarantee in writing about how inventory is handled when we purchased more than one week in order to be able to take advantage of the 13-mo rule.  If everything with this new system appears to be as legitimate and is a usage improvement over what we own currently, then I won't feel like I have to ask for such a written guarantee before converting.  YMMV, of course, but Marriott's consistent history with a good product and a good system holds some water with me.  The only thing they'll HAVE to sell me on is that whatever gets rolled out works better for me.



I think the problem is some people have spent to much time listening to scary stories told by a few timeshare salesmen who stretch the truth. You know the ones. They tell people if you buy resale you'll never be able to do internal exchanges with Marriott. Marriott will flag you file and you'll always be dumped to the bottom of the list. You'll get the worst location with a view of the trash dumpster et..... They try to get inside your head and make you believe things that aren't true. 

Looks like they've done a good job frightening at least one or two resale buyers on this forum. They've certainly got inside their heads judging by the irrational posts I've read.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> This is great news!
> 
> Do-it-yourself weeks to points conversion.
> 
> I sure hope the instructions are not in Chinese.
> 
> I suppose a website could have all the docs and instructions on how to print out the forms transferring ownership from you to the Marriott trust.
> 
> Then which docs to have notarized and how to send the docs via Priority Mail.
> 
> I guess it could be done and this would be my dream come true



It can be done this way. 

When you bought your resale Summit Watch, did you go to a re-sale sales floor or was all the paperwork handled via FedEx? The resale week I purchased I sure didn't go into an office to finalize the paperwork. When I converted my DRI weeks to points I never stepped foot on a sales floor either. 

So happy days for you. You won't have to see a Marriott salesman and get bashed for owning a resale week all over again. You'll be able to simply mail it in.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Ever play Tetris on your cell phone?  I do when waiting in line and it hurts just to stare at the wall.
> 
> Well Tetris has multi-colored blocks falling in a random location and you use past fallen blocks to build upon.
> 
> Marriott doesn't have to actually confirm a reservation in order for it to show up in the rental calendar - it can just hold it there in limbo waiting for other reservations to form long 13-month links which will snag ALL 13 month inventory for hot weeks.
> 
> If a non-member tries to make a reservation then the chain will be locked in and the reservation system will play Tetris again.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with this and checking your deed will find no mention that Marriott can't play these games.
> 
> Will Marriott do it?  Don't know but I sure would if my sales reps spent all day selling New Year's week to everyone walking through the door.
> 
> Marriott hasn't had any vested interest in reservations before and that's why they dumped exchanging over to II.  Now they do.



You worked on a Warren commision didn't you.


----------



## dougp26364

tombo said:


> When Marriott rolls out the new program I feel sure that they will announce that from this point forward only points will be sold by Marriott, and that any new resorts built will only be available to Marriott points owners along with the if you don't convert eventually you will have nothing to trade for since everyone is converting and all inventory will be in points, etc, etc,blah, blah, blah.
> 
> I am sure that *they *will explain how resale owners will be missing out on the new points exchange program in some form or fashion from what they have been saying about resales over the past months. I hope someone here will quiz them on what disadvantages resale weeks will have from this point forward. Will new resale weeks not be allowed to convert to points? Will resale weeks be more expensive to convert to points. If you convert you week to points and sell it will the points transfer to your resale buyer or revert to weeks? For months they have threatened that resale weeks would be devalued and that resale owners would not get the same perks as retail owners once the points were rolled out. Now I am curious as to what (if any) punishment they have in place for those of us who purchased resale.



They, meaning salesmen and Perry. Yep, two very reliable sources. 

It is believable to me that resale buyers will be asked to pay more but, I haven't seen that in writing. It's an assumption on my part. We all know what assumptions can do. 

Then again, if they ask resale buyers to pay a higher price to convert to the new points program but, resale buyers paid a fraction of developer pricing, are they really paying more?


----------



## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> They, meaning salesmen and Perry. Yep, two very reliable sources.
> 
> It is believable to me that resale buyers will be asked to pay more but, I haven't seen that in writing. It's an assumption on my part. We all know what assumptions can do.
> 
> *Then again, if they ask resale buyers to pay a higher price to convert to the new points program but, resale buyers paid a fraction of developer pricing, are they really paying more?*



Ah, vindication!  This is what I've been saying for ages!  But look out Doug, because it seems that's some sort of hocuspocus voodoo blesphemy you're talking about.


----------



## taffy19

rthib said:


> so now that two of the supposed deadlines have passed, can we admit that there is nothing to this nonsense.
> 
> Right niw in order to believe this you have to believe that Marriott has super secret security that noone has been able to penatrate except for a few sales reps.
> 
> no one else anywhere but hear is even hinting about this.
> 
> go on with your lives, this is nothing more than the 5(or sixth) aniversery of this same rumor.


The deadline hasn't passed yet.  Office closed for sales training on June 17 at the MOC for three days only. Others have reported two weeks at other resorts and then there is this email here of May 14 that is in black and white and I bolded the date of June 16 in that email.
_Date: May 14, 2010_​_To: All Sales & Marketing Associates_​_From: Brian Miller, Senior Vice President, Sales, Marketing and Service Operations_​_Re: Marriott Vacation Club 25th Anniversary Celebration Conclusion_​_Since last April, we have been celebrating the 25th anniversary of Marriott Vacation Club. As the first major hospitality brand to enter the Vacation Ownership Industry, we all believed this milestone was worthy of celebration, both with our associates and with our valued owners and customers. _​_The success of our 25th anniversary has been remarkable as our owners and guests have taken advantage of our unprecedented On-Tour Purchase Incentives. This has been one of the best buying opportunities of the decade, but unfortunately all good things come to an end._​_While we have been celebrating our special milestone since April 7th, 2009, I want you to be aware that our current offering of promotional pricing incentives will expire as of close of business, *June 16, 2010*. Existing On-Tour Incentives may not be extended and WILL NOT be continued after the above date. There will be no exceptions. _​_Have a terrific month! Thank you for your contributions to our great company’s success as we close out the celebration of this special milestone._​We only have to wait a few more days and I hope that a new thread will be started.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*What Time Zone Is MOC In ?*




iconnections said:


> Office closed for sales training on June 17 at the MOC for three days only.


Shux, around here, it's still only June 14 -- June 17 hasn't happened yet. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## taffy19

*What Time Zone Is MOC In ?*



AwayWeGo said:


> Shux, around here, it's still only June 14 -- June 17 hasn't happened yet.
> 
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ​


The Maui Ocean Club is on Maui and I changed my time to Hawaiian time so that's what the time is there now (2:36 PM) but the same date.

(GMT - 10:00) Hawaii  I just noticed that there is only a 2 hour difference and not 3 when we usually go.


----------



## tombo

dougp26364 said:


> It can be done this way.
> 
> When you bought your resale Summit Watch, did you go to a re-sale sales floor or was all the paperwork handled via FedEx? The resale week I purchased I sure didn't go into an office to finalize the paperwork. When I converted my DRI weeks to points I never stepped foot on a sales floor either.
> 
> So happy days for you. You won't have to see a Marriott salesman and get bashed for owning a resale week all over again. You'll be able to simply mail it in.



Big difference. When you buy resale from an individual Marriott doesn't make any money so they don't care if the sale falls through or if the paperwork is messed up and not deeded correctly. They hope the resale falls through so the buyer might instead buy from Marriott. 

When it is Marriott converting to points or selling additional points it is Marriott who's sale and profits will fall through if the customer backs out with buyers remorse, because of delays in the mail, etc. They want a sales person to close the sale, a manager to make sure it stays closed, and a signed contract in hand making people feel as though they can't back out if they want to. If everything is done by mail there is too much lag time where buyer's remorse can and often will set in. In addition Marriott's closing ratio on conversions through mailers and web site will be much lower than one on one with sales pros and everyone (especially Marriott) knows it. 

If timeshare weeks, timeshare points, timeshare conversions, etc would sell without employing highly paid, high pressure sales forces then Marriott, DVC, HGC, etc would not employ salesmen to market their resorts. Timeshares (other than dirt cheap resales) do not sell themselves, they must be sold to somebody by somebody.


----------



## DanCali

tombo said:


> If everything is done by mail there is too much lag time where buyer's remorse can and often will set in.



But they do have a direct sales department that operates via phone.In fact, I've found the salespeople from telesales I talked to (both Starwood and Marriott) much more honest - perhaps they operate under a different set of rules on that front?


----------



## tombo

DanCali said:


> But they do have a direct sales department that operates via phone.In fact, I've found the salespeople from telesales I talked to (both Starwood and Marriott) much more honest - perhaps they operate under a different set of rules on that front?



I wonder if the "honest"Marriott telesales force will honestly answer questions about points rules, conversion costs, and other questions we all have. If they will that will be great and save us sitting through long "informative presentations". I bet money that they won't discuss points details over the phone but it would be great to be wrong about that.


----------



## JimIg23

So, what does everyone think, will a Tugger get the scoop on this on Saturday?


----------



## PerryM

*Woo Hoo!*



dougp26364 said:


> It can be done this way.
> 
> When you bought your resale Summit Watch, did you go to a re-sale sales floor or was all the paperwork handled via FedEx? The resale week I purchased I sure didn't go into an office to finalize the paperwork. When I converted my DRI weeks to points I never stepped foot on a sales floor either.
> 
> So happy days for you. You won't have to see a Marriott salesman and get bashed for owning a resale week all over again. You'll be able to simply mail it in.



Phew!  Marriott of Nigeria keeps sending me huge cashiers checks for my Summit Watch and I keep sending them back Western Union Money Orders since I don't want to take advantage of them.

They tell me my Gold Summit Watch is worth 666 Points - I'm thrilled.

So be on the lookout for your own Marriott of Nigeria letter - it's easy to spot, it has a return address of San Quentin, CA, I guess that's the new address for Marriott Points? 

It's nice to be on the cutting edge...


----------



## jlf58

of course they will. They get paid to sell 




tombo said:


> I wonder if the "honest"Marriott telesales force will honestly answer questions about points rules, conversion costs, and other questions we all have. If they will that will be great and save us sitting through long "informative presentations". I bet money that they won't discuss points details over the phone but it would be great to be wrong about that.


----------



## melroseman

*Marriott telesales*

As many of you know, the telesales people are more "careful" in what they say because the calls are recorded and randomly monitored.  They don't  (and can't) make stuff up or stretch the truth too much.  So yes, your information is likely to be more accurate via telephone that at a presentation.


----------



## scrapngen

*thanks for help writing my scare tactics... - M. Salesperson*

I suspect we have aided the salesmen tremendously by this thread to add to the resale/conversion scare tactics. 

While I and others have not particularly found our salespeople to misrepresent or outright lie (and I think while this may be in dispute, it is not in dispute that they are NOT the worst, at least) The one thing that seems to be almost universal among salestalk is the allegations that resales people are treated differently, therefore it is better to buy direct. Some are told their files will have a flag and therefore the desk will dis them, others that their reservations will be impacted in some way (even to the parking lot views) etc., etc. 

Many of these allegations are only found to be false by the unsuspecting person who stumbled into the TS presentation not knowing the deal only  upon getting feedback from actual resale purchasers and their experiences, or by other investigation, but since the salesperson is presumably good at the job, it will be enough to make them uncertain - hopefully long enough to outlast the recission period. (Other than the one valid point that resale does not allow conversion to MR's  - which can be verified by contract) Because it is so hard to verify, people are often unwilling to "take the chance on resale" and buy a guaranteed product directly. They don't always realise how this purchasing mentality doesn't equate/apply the same way as material goods in this instance, due to the nature of the product. (I'm only referring to the unsuspecting, not those who buy direct knowing what is fact and fiction) 

So my point is:  if some of the salespeople choose to continue to rely  on scare tactics - and since many of the scare tactics previously used relied on perception and not something that was easily verified - we have now given them several more things to scare folks with - that can't easily be verified. And even veteran, seasoned TUGGERs (I'm not in this group yet) will have a hard time determining or verifying for some time to come. Meanwhile, the salespeople have now added the following *(regardless of the actual truth, which even they might not really know)* to their arsenal (if they choose to use it) for both purchases AND conversions: 

"your week probably won't have access to as many prime weeks w/everyone else converting"

"your current prime week still won't do as well with the new system implemented" 

"you've been doing pretty well w/your re-sale weeks, but now they REALLY don't equate with developer so you'll want to switch"

"in other points systems where there has been an opportunity to convert, those who didn't have a harder time finding good trades, and while they still get their deeded rights, they don't get all the extras they used to, so you should convert now while we have goodies" 

"if you buy resale, points will stay reasonably firm in price, but weeks will be worth nothing"

"the inventory you CAN access with a resale or unconverted week will be greatly restricted, and while you can still trade in II, you will have different access and no preference anymore if you don't convert or still choose to buy re-sale" 

etc.    

I actually see the scare tactics being useful for both any new sales and for the "potential" conversion. (The one thing I believe is a fact is that a new system is coming - what it means to me is very much "potential and speculative")

and, finally, they can say "hey, if you don't believe me and want some other opinions first, here's a long thread going into great detail about what resale will now mean written by many people who've been TS for a long time and have a lot of collective knowledge and look at the title and all the concerns if you don't go to points..." :ignore: 

Today I'm looking at the empty glass which takes a look at this amazing wealth of brainpower/(or not so much) spent on this idea and wonders how the salespeople look at it and make use of the same brainpower and figure out how to use it to their advantage...


----------



## Dean

puckmanfl said:


> Dean:
> 
> Looks like we agree here.  Without home resort priority I doubt that owners of the "primo" weeks will convert.  Let's return to my ski week example.  Hypothetically, an owner of a primo Park City or Tahoe ski week will mostly occupy but occasionally might trade to ski in a different location or try something different.  I would be willing to wager that the owners of these units purchased mostly to occupy and occasionally exchange.   Now these owners, can do a request first before giving up the home resort.  I don't think these owners will put their weeks in the points without some assurance they will be able to "snag" a similiar week in return.
> 
> I don't believe you will be giving up summer in HHI either without some sort of confidence you could get it back!!!
> 
> I on the other hand might be quite inclined to convert my GV weeks even without Home resort priority (if it is not cost prohibitive)  as I have ZERO doubts about being able to go to Orlando.  If the deal is a "three year term" as per the "survey" I would most likely  convert the Hawaii's as 2011 weeks are already booked for my 25th anniv. super trip.  I would probably be Hawaii'ed out for a few years after this one.  The prospects of some mini jaunts to off season joints within driving distance (HHI, Florida etc) might be quite appealing...


I'm sure we agree far more than not on most things but there's no fun in reading a thread where everyone agrees on every detail.  Depending on specifics I'll likely be interested in converting 4 or 5 weeks but not the other 4 or 5.



dioxide45 said:


> Another thing to consider is that a points system is a chance for Marriott to "re-season" a lot of their resorts. A big complaint at many resorts is that people can't get book prime weeks since seasons are too long and there are too many owners competing for only a few weeks.
> 
> In a new system there isn't anything stating that Marriott must assign point values off of the existing seasons. They could look at Ocean Pointe and assign more points to the May weeks and fewer points to the September weeks. You may get an average of all of those points in the season you own.
> 
> So if you are used to going to OP every May, you may have to instead go in May one year and September the next by borrowing or carrying points over.
> 
> Marriott can change the whole game with this.


Depending on the other choices they could do this but it assumes either no home resort priority or that the best priority one can achieve is for the resort and not season.  That will keep a lot of high demand weeks out of the system.  If the weeks aren't converted, they can't be available for points owners.



dougp26364 said:


> What's going to be funny is if the program is so good, Perry has to eat crow for all the scary words he's posted and joins the new program himself. :hysterical:


I give it 50/50 that he does join within 2-3 years, we'll see.



dougp26364 said:


> I thought most points systems maintained some sort of home resort priority. It's a few trust based ownerships where there is no home resort, just an ownership interest in a trust that includes several resorts, that didn't have what Marriott owners understand as home resort priority.


DVC does, Bluegreen and Club Intrawest don't give a home resort priority.  I don't think Wyndham does with maybe limited exceptions, not sure about Shell, VRI, etc.  BG gives you access to your underlying week only or you get the points.  Maybe we should come up with a list of how each points system handles this issue.  



> Doug is the expert here as he owns at several point systems and it seems to work according to him and you don't read many complaints about it. If the person designed it, who worked for Disney, then I would have confidence. Do you hear complaints from Disney owners?


Actually yes, all the time.  And Disney's fees are about 30-40% more than Marriott's for a comparable unit.

We've spent most of our time talking about things like whether there will be a home resort priority, another question is whether there will be any restrictions on length of stay, charges for additional housekeeping, etc.  The limited info we've gotten (or at least the majority of the guessing) has this looking a lot more like Bluegreen or Wyndham or even RCI points, than DVC.  Both have a VIP system.



> Folks, look at your deed and it simply states you can make a reservation, of 7 days or a 4/3 split, during your SEASON. I sure don't remember anything else promised.


It also says they can change the reservation system without input and without amending the POS in the ones I've looked at directly.  Plus, anyone changing over would be agreeing to the NEW terms and giving up their previous options.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they said you can convert for X fee OR you can add on and convert for free.



lopezcasa said:


> Sorry if this has been asked and answered in the 89 pages I didn't read all the way thru,  , how do you think this new system may affect Marriott helping to resell a property?  I have contacted them about selling my property in Maui and am on the list, but I was wondering if this will help or hinder my chances of getting it sold?
> Thanks for any opinions.


It has come up and I don't think anyone knows.  My guess is you'll get a letter telling you that they are ceasing resales as of X date, maybe the end of the year.  OR they may allow you to sell it within the points system instead but you'd likely have to convert it to do so.


----------



## FlyerBobcat

SueDonJ said:


> (Tom, be prepared, it sounds like you might be walking in to the same setup.  And for what it's worth, there are already all sorts of celebratory signs up because it's the 25th MVCI anniversary.)



Thanks for the heads-up.  It could be interesting how it unfolds...

And by the way... Happy Anniversary this weekend!


----------



## jlf58

Calls are almost never recorded and when they are, its for sales training.
I am not sure why people say things when they don't have accurate information.



melroseman said:


> As many of you know, the telesales people are more "careful" in what they say because the calls are recorded and randomly monitored.  They don't  (and can't) make stuff up or stretch the truth too much.  So yes, your information is likely to be more accurate via telephone that at a presentation.


----------



## Dean

Fletch said:


> Calls are almost never recorded and when they are, its for sales training.
> I am not sure why people say things when they don't have accurate information.


I can't speak for Marriott and you'd certainly know more than I, however, many companies now record each and every phone call.  We do and we're much smaller than is Marriott.  We can go back and review every phone call fairly easily at this point.  I'm pretty sure Bluegreen records every phone call as well as II, not sure about RCI but I'd be surprised if they didn't.  IF Marriott doesn't, they should.


----------



## dioxide45

This is actually quite interesting. Wondering why they would be doing a webinar on how to trade your week THROUGH II if they are looking to do it themselves.



iconnections said:


> Did anyone receive this invitation? I didn't see any comments but it takes place on June 16 which happens to be the week that the new system will be announced supposedly. I wished I had signed up but left it too late and now the link is dead. I am almost positive that it was for the 16th and I was going to sign up later as I was curious what they were going to pitch on that date.
> 
> I left a call to see if I can still sign up for it.
> 
> Subject: Exclusive Owner Event from Marriott Vacation Club
> 
> *Dear xxxxxx,*
> 
> It is my pleasure to invite you to join fellow new Owners for a web based seminar (webinar) that will discuss how to *exchange your Marriott Vacation Club week through Interval International *to experience a new destination.
> 
> Each year, over 40% of Marriott Vacation Club owners exchange their week(s) with Interval International, our exchange partner. This webinar will cover the different exchange methods, comparability factors, the Travel Demand index, and tips and tricks to help you comfirm your vacation with Interval International. I am confident that you will have a greater understanding of how to maximize your vacation ownership with Marriott Vacation Club after participating in our webinar.
> 
> The webinar is complimentary: all you need is a computer with access to the internet. To register for our Owner Webinar, please *click here* and then click on the red "Learn about Upcoming Webinars" button.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jennifer deRosier
> Director of Education
> Marriott Vacation Club International
> 
> 
> PS.  I received this email on May 24, 2010.


----------



## jlf58

There are lots of things they don't do that they should and this is one of them LOL 



Dean said:


> I can't speak for Marriott and you'd certainly know more than I, however, many companies now record each and every phone call.  We do and we're much smaller than is Marriott.  We can go back and review every phone call fairly easily at this point.  I'm pretty sure Bluegreen records every phone call as well as II, not sure about RCI but I'd be surprised if they didn't.  IF Marriott doesn't, they should.


----------



## Dean

Fletch said:


> There are lots of things they don't do that they should and this is one of them LOL


Do I detect a hint of sarcasm Fletch?  Any relationship to why you bailed? Rhetorical, don't answer that.  Shall we start in DC?


----------



## jlf58

I left on good terms. It was an amazing first 6 years and by the 7th year I needed a change. 





Dean said:


> Do I detect a hint of sarcasm Fletch?  Any relationship to why you bailed? Rhetorical, don't answer that.  Shall we start in DC?


----------



## dougp26364

tombo said:


> Big difference. When you buy resale from an individual Marriott doesn't make any money so they don't care if the sale falls through or if the paperwork is messed up and not deeded correctly. They hope the resale falls through so the buyer might instead buy from Marriott.
> 
> When it is Marriott converting to points or selling additional points it is Marriott who's sale and profits will fall through if the customer backs out with buyers remorse, because of delays in the mail, etc. They want a sales person to close the sale, a manager to make sure it stays closed, and a signed contract in hand making people feel as though they can't back out if they want to. If everything is done by mail there is too much lag time where buyer's remorse can and often will set in. In addition Marriott's closing ratio on conversions through mailers and web site will be much lower than one on one with sales pros and everyone (especially Marriott) knows it.
> 
> If timeshare weeks, timeshare points, timeshare conversions, etc would sell without employing highly paid, high pressure sales forces then Marriott, DVC, HGC, etc would not employ salesmen to market their resorts. Timeshares (other than dirt cheap resales) do not sell themselves, they must be sold to somebody by somebody.




OK, allow me to rephrase. I've purchased one developer week via phone/mail from DRI. I've purchased one resale week via mail/phone/e-mail. I've switched from a weeks based system to a points based system via phone/mail/e-mail. When we decided to exercise an option with Marriott to buy a second EOY week at Grand Chateua, all transactions were handled via phone/mail/E-mail. All of this CAN be done without setting foot in on a sales floor and, I have personal experience doing so with Marriott. 

I have not doubt that Marriott would prefer to get owners into a presentation but, it's not required.


----------



## PerryM

*What's bigger than colossal?*



dougp26364 said:


> OK, allow me to rephrase. I've purchased one developer week via phone/mail from DRI. I've purchased one resale week via mail/phone/e-mail. I've switched from a weeks based system to a points based system via phone/mail/e-mail. When we decided to exercise an option with Marriott to buy a second EOY week at Grand Chateua, all transactions were handled via phone/mail/E-mail. All of this CAN be done without setting foot in on a sales floor and, I have personal experience doing so with Marriott.
> 
> I have not doubt that Marriott would prefer to get owners into a presentation but, it's not required.



I bought 3 groups of WM credits and all were done on a 4 page document that just needed to be notarized - all resale of course.  Our Gold Summit Watch was from a reseller and all done over the phone and by mail.

However, if Marriott does go the do-it-yourself conversion route then end of Marriott is near because this will become more than a colossal failure...


----------



## PerryM

scrapngen said:


> I suspect we have aided the salesmen tremendously by this thread to add to the resale/conversion scare tactics.
> 
> While I and others have not particularly found our salespeople to misrepresent or outright lie (and I think while this may be in dispute, it is not in dispute that they are NOT the worst, at least) The one thing that seems to be almost universal among salestalk is the allegations that resales people are treated differently, therefore it is better to buy direct. Some are told their files will have a flag and therefore the desk will dis them, others that their reservations will be impacted in some way (even to the parking lot views) etc., etc.
> 
> Many of these allegations are only found to be false by the unsuspecting person who stumbled into the TS presentation not knowing the deal only  upon getting feedback from actual resale purchasers and their experiences, or by other investigation, but since the salesperson is presumably good at the job, it will be enough to make them uncertain - hopefully long enough to outlast the recission period. (Other than the one valid point that resale does not allow conversion to MR's  - which can be verified by contract) Because it is so hard to verify, people are often unwilling to "take the chance on resale" and buy a guaranteed product directly. They don't always realise how this purchasing mentality doesn't equate/apply the same way as material goods in this instance, due to the nature of the product. (I'm only referring to the unsuspecting, not those who buy direct knowing what is fact and fiction)
> 
> So my point is:  if some of the salespeople choose to continue to rely  on scare tactics - and since many of the scare tactics previously used relied on perception and not something that was easily verified - we have now given them several more things to scare folks with - that can't easily be verified. And even veteran, seasoned TUGGERs (I'm not in this group yet) will have a hard time determining or verifying for some time to come. Meanwhile, the salespeople have now added the following *(regardless of the actual truth, which even they might not really know)* to their arsenal (if they choose to use it) for both purchases AND conversions:
> 
> "your week probably won't have access to as many prime weeks w/everyone else converting"
> 
> "your current prime week still won't do as well with the new system implemented"
> 
> "you've been doing pretty well w/your re-sale weeks, but now they REALLY don't equate with developer so you'll want to switch"
> 
> "in other points systems where there has been an opportunity to convert, those who didn't have a harder time finding good trades, and while they still get their deeded rights, they don't get all the extras they used to, so you should convert now while we have goodies"
> 
> "if you buy resale, points will stay reasonably firm in price, but weeks will be worth nothing"
> 
> "the inventory you CAN access with a resale or unconverted week will be greatly restricted, and while you can still trade in II, you will have different access and no preference anymore if you don't convert or still choose to buy re-sale"
> 
> etc.
> 
> I actually see the scare tactics being useful for both any new sales and for the "potential" conversion. (The one thing I believe is a fact is that a new system is coming - what it means to me is very much "potential and speculative")
> 
> and, finally, they can say "hey, if you don't believe me and want some other opinions first, here's a long thread going into great detail about what resale will now mean written by many people who've been TS for a long time and have a lot of collective knowledge and look at the title and all the concerns if you don't go to points..." :ignore:
> 
> Today I'm looking at the empty glass which takes a look at this amazing wealth of brainpower/(or not so much) spent on this idea and wonders how the salespeople look at it and make use of the same brainpower and figure out how to use it to their advantage...



If I've helped any Marriott salesreps, I do take PayPal donations - contact me for more details...


----------



## tombo

If my posts have helped any Marriott sales people in any way I can assure you that it was totally unintended .


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I bought 3 groups of WM credits and all were done on a 4 page document that just needed to be notarized - all resale of course.  Our Gold Summit Watch was from a reseller and all done over the phone and by mail.
> 
> However, if Marriott does go the do-it-yourself conversion route then end of Marriott is near because this will become more than a colossal failure...



You don't think they'll try to sell more points if you elect to convert over the phone? I know when I converted our DRI weeks, I was offered a points package to get us to Gold Elite, explained the benefits of being Gold Elite and offered the option of purchasing those points and getting the conversion fee waived. There's going to be an initial push to get members converted. I anticipate it will be relatively easy and cost effective in the begining. They'll want to create a good base of customers to drive this system from the very begining. 

For you, no matter what Marriott does, they'll be a colosal failure. You just can't envision it being any other way.


----------



## lapdawg

Looks like it's not speculation anymore.  I got this email from the rep who sold us our TS 3 years ago.  For the record, this is the first we've heard from her since the sale:


_Dear xxxxxx, 

How are you? I see you have been using your week as you wanted to. I hope you are enjoying it very much. Anytime you should have any questions or concerns feel free to phone me. 

FYI 

*Marriott is changing on June 17th. This is the last time anyone will be able to purchase a vacation ownership week from Marriott with our current program and purchase incentives. 

These purchase incentives end on June 16th.*

If you should know of anyone that has an interest in owning with us either an every year or every other year ownership week do not let this opportunity pass them by. 

I have a very limited number of every other year ownership weeks for sale at 60% off. 

Phone me directly at xxxxxxx or cell in the eve or weekends xxxxxxxx.



Here are some examples with the 60% incentive: 

Maui Original ..1 bed ov $15,480, of $15,840….. 2 bedroom gv $18,560, ov $22,840, of $26,840

New Napili Tower with full kitchen Island view 2 bedroom $19,720., OF $31,080. 

Barony Beach Gold $9,120 2 bedroom on the beach, 1 left. 

Grande Vista 2 bed Platinum $11,000, Gold $8,960, 3 bedroom Grande Vista Platinum $14,360, Gold $11,080., 

Beachplace Platinum $13,120,Gold $8,880, 

Ocean Pointe Platinum $15,560, Gold $10,360.

Vegas 1 bedroom $9,120, Newport Coast Platinum $15,360, Gold $10,800

Shadow Ridge Enclaves, Palm Desert Platinum $11,880, Tahoe Ski 2 bed $18,680, Summer $13,160.

Canyon Villas, Phoenix   Platinum $12,680. Gold $8,720. 

Marco Island 2 bed.Gold $14,240, Silver $11,960 and Platinum $25,760.

I do have a few others but just 1 week here and there. 

I have every year ownership weeks with 15-35% off depending on resort and purchase price. 

Marco Gold (Summer and late Fall) is a fantastic deal for every year 2 bedroom $23,140. 

Have a great day!_


----------



## GregT

lapdawg said:


> Looks like it's not speculation anymore.  I got this email from the rep who sold us our TS 3 years ago.  For the record, this is the first we've heard from her since the sale:
> 
> 
> _Dear xxxxxx,
> 
> How are you? I see you have been using your week as you wanted to. I hope you are enjoying it very much. Anytime you should have any questions or concerns feel free to phone me.
> 
> FYI
> 
> *Marriott is changing on June 17th. This is the last time anyone will be able to purchase a vacation ownership week from Marriott with our current program and purchase incentives.
> 
> These purchase incentives end on June 16th.*
> 
> If you should know of anyone that has an interest in owning with us either an every year or every other year ownership week do not let this opportunity pass them by.
> 
> I have a very limited number of every other year ownership weeks for sale at 60% off.
> 
> Phone me directly at xxxxxxx or cell in the eve or weekends xxxxxxxx.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some examples with the 60% incentive:
> 
> Maui Original ..1 bed ov $15,480, of $15,840….. 2 bedroom gv $18,560, ov $22,840, of $26,840
> 
> New Napili Tower with full kitchen Island view 2 bedroom $19,720., OF $31,080.
> 
> Barony Beach Gold $9,120 2 bedroom on the beach, 1 left.
> 
> Grande Vista 2 bed Platinum $11,000, Gold $8,960, 3 bedroom Grande Vista Platinum $14,360, Gold $11,080.,
> 
> Beachplace Platinum $13,120,Gold $8,880,
> 
> Ocean Pointe Platinum $15,560, Gold $10,360.
> 
> Vegas 1 bedroom $9,120, Newport Coast Platinum $15,360, Gold $10,800
> 
> Shadow Ridge Enclaves, Palm Desert Platinum $11,880, Tahoe Ski 2 bed $18,680, Summer $13,160.
> 
> Canyon Villas, Phoenix   Platinum $12,680. Gold $8,720.
> 
> Marco Island 2 bed.Gold $14,240, Silver $11,960 and Platinum $25,760.
> 
> I do have a few others but just 1 week here and there.
> 
> I have every year ownership weeks with 15-35% off depending on resort and purchase price.
> 
> Marco Gold (Summer and late Fall) is a fantastic deal for every year 2 bedroom $23,140.
> 
> Have a great day!_




I'm meeting with my sales rep tomorrow -- interesting that there's no Ko Olina on this list -- but he had told me that it was sold out at the 60% off pricing.


----------



## wvacations

For what it is worth, I did an online Chat at my-vactionclub.com and asked if there was any truth to the rumor that a new program comes out next week. He said "Not that I have heard of." Then proceeded to say there are always rumors online about MVCI, including the rumor for 6 years that Marriott is building a club in Tuscony...which they are not. 

Take it or leave it!!!!

Off to Maui in 5 days. I'll be there if/when the new program rolls out next week. Hope they still give towels to resale owners, or I'll have to drive over to Costco to get some!

Aloha !!!


----------



## scrapngen

tombo said:


> If my posts have helped any Marriott sales people in any way I can assure you that it was totally unintended .


 
Got it, Tombo, and your posts do not suggest that as your intention. I appreciate your thoughtful posts, even as I am optimistic rather than pessimistic about the coming changes. But "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."  Don't want to be that gal either. Resale,  MF fee escalations as reallocations are made, everyone has the potential to be affected  in some way even with fixed weeks always used at home resort.

-Anyway, I was not suggesting that people were intentionally trying to feed arguments out there to help the sales force, just that it is very possible that the whole thread has helped them in very unintended ways...

I admit I kind of went to the conspiracy theory side of things. I took a "what if"... the sales force had purposefully started the rumour 5 years ago (not Marriott per se, but the sales people) ...well, IF that was the case, then surely they were harvesting the outcome of those rumours now. Again, don't really think such a devious plan was enacted. 

However, it is clear that both Marriott and sales force Marriott know about TUG. I do NOT think it is a stretch to posit that they'd take an interest in this thread and use it somewhat differently than say..many/most of the other posters and readers. So I also don't think it a stretch that the negative speculation here might be spun into just another reason that "buying direct or converting now is the only way to go. Do it before you leave the room!!"

Only a few more days until we start a new thread... :


----------



## Ireland'sCall

*Weds next 16th is the announcement*

Marriott are running a Webinar Business Update to certain Advisory Board members about the new system .It's planned for evening time in Europe so it suggests a pm time in the US.
G


----------



## dougp26364

lapdawg said:


> Looks like it's not speculation anymore.  I got this email from the rep who sold us our TS 3 years ago.  For the record, this is the first we've heard from her since the sale:
> 
> 
> _Dear xxxxxx,
> 
> How are you? I see you have been using your week as you wanted to. I hope you are enjoying it very much. Anytime you should have any questions or concerns feel free to phone me.
> 
> FYI
> 
> *Marriott is changing on June 17th. This is the last time anyone will be able to purchase a vacation ownership week from Marriott with our current program and purchase incentives.
> 
> These purchase incentives end on June 16th.*
> 
> If you should know of anyone that has an interest in owning with us either an every year or every other year ownership week do not let this opportunity pass them by.
> 
> I have a very limited number of every other year ownership weeks for sale at 60% off.
> 
> Phone me directly at xxxxxxx or cell in the eve or weekends xxxxxxxx.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some examples with the 60% incentive:
> 
> Maui Original ..1 bed ov $15,480, of $15,840….. 2 bedroom gv $18,560, ov $22,840, of $26,840
> 
> New Napili Tower with full kitchen Island view 2 bedroom $19,720., OF $31,080.
> 
> Barony Beach Gold $9,120 2 bedroom on the beach, 1 left.
> 
> Grande Vista 2 bed Platinum $11,000, Gold $8,960, 3 bedroom Grande Vista Platinum $14,360, Gold $11,080.,
> 
> Beachplace Platinum $13,120,Gold $8,880,
> 
> Ocean Pointe Platinum $15,560, Gold $10,360.
> 
> Vegas 1 bedroom $9,120, Newport Coast Platinum $15,360, Gold $10,800
> 
> Shadow Ridge Enclaves, Palm Desert Platinum $11,880, Tahoe Ski 2 bed $18,680, Summer $13,160.
> 
> Canyon Villas, Phoenix   Platinum $12,680. Gold $8,720.
> 
> Marco Island 2 bed.Gold $14,240, Silver $11,960 and Platinum $25,760.
> 
> I do have a few others but just 1 week here and there.
> 
> I have every year ownership weeks with 15-35% off depending on resort and purchase price.
> 
> Marco Gold (Summer and late Fall) is a fantastic deal for every year 2 bedroom $23,140.
> 
> Have a great day!_



I'm glad this will be coming to an end soon. I really want to know where I stand with our two EOY weeks. I'm hoping they can be converted but, it sounds as if that won't be the case.


----------



## JimIg23

dougp26364 said:


> I'm glad this will be coming to an end soon. I really want to know where I stand with our two EOY weeks. I'm hoping they can be converted but, it sounds as if that won't be the case.



Until they actually tell us, the sounds we have are our own opinions only.  I hope so too if the program is good.  I bet though, if you buy more points they will be able to magically convert those EOYs or resales......


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> I'm glad this will be coming to an end soon. I really want to know where I stand with our two EOY weeks. I'm hoping they can be converted but, it sounds as if that won't be the case.



At least you've been enjoying yours. I can't imagine them selling EOY weeks today and introducing what they will promote as the next best thing since sliced bread before the rescission period is even over for some purchasers and excluding them before they've even closed. Talking about creating owner discontent!

I, too, am hopeful that Marriott will do tight by its owners and that this new program will give more flexibility, but I am not unhappy with the current ownership and would be very happy for status quo. I do hope that IF the program eliminates home resort priority that a dual inventory program will work seamlessly both now and in ten years down the road. For me, the loss of home resort priority would be a deal breaker, regardless of the offer. 

I am also hopeful that Marriott will do right by all its owners and not use this to stick it to resale buyers, who have loyally been supporting Marriott simply by virtue of the fact that they pay those MF's like everybody else.

I guess by this time next week we should know where we all stand and hopefully have it pretty much analyzed as to the pros and cons. I'm relying on all those with experience using point systems to post the pros and cons as they see it. I hope Perry will join in; even though his viewpoint is a tad on the negative side, that perspective is very helpful. Personally, I'd rather be forewarned and, if I opt to join, go in with open eyes.

I'd like to see a low fee to join (less than $500) for everyone, home resort priority (perhaps 12 months limited to current season owners booking at least 7 days and 10 or 11 months for anyone else), a fair, objective valuation (based on real market rental rates charged by Marriott), a Flexchange-type discount, the ability to borrow or bank points for one year to the next and, optimally, the ability to rent a fraction of points if needed. I think developer direct purchasers should be given the added bonus of a good conversion to rewards points option so that perk really goes back to being one. That's my wish list; let's see if they come close.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> *You don't think they'll try to sell more points if you elect to convert over the phone? *I know when I converted our DRI weeks, I was offered a points package to get us to Gold Elite, explained the benefits of being Gold Elite and offered the option of purchasing those points and getting the conversion fee waived. There's going to be an initial push to get members converted. I anticipate it will be relatively easy and cost effective in the begining. They'll want to create a good base of customers to drive this system from the very begining.
> 
> For you, no matter what Marriott does, they'll be a colosal failure. You just can't envision it being any other way.



I don't know all the real estate laws of the various states so I can't comment on if Marriott can hawk timeshare sales via a cold call.  Every time I see an ad for the developers it's followed by hundreds of words in 6pt type so I would imagine they'd have to play a recording, at 10X speed, of all the warnings.  Just a guess.

I think if I call in and start the sale that's a different thing - again just a guess.

Marriott isn't going to offer this for free and its going to be very hard to explain turning in deeds for a scrap of paper and Points that exist in hyperspace.

And what about all the folks who own a timeshare and don't know how to turn on a computer?

1 week and we will see...


----------



## PerryM

*Marriott salesreps listen up*

I dropped a hint about taking donations for helping you guys craft your sales pitch.

As of this morning I haven't received any donations from you guys.

Come on you have a conscience and its telling you to donate.

Oh, wait a minute...


----------



## tombo

scrapngen said:


> Got it, Tombo, and your posts do not suggest that as your intention. I appreciate your thoughtful posts, even as I am optimistic rather than pessimistic about the coming changes. But "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."  Don't want to be that gal either. Resale,  MF fee escalations as reallocations are made, everyone has the potential to be affected  in some way even with fixed weeks always used at home resort.
> 
> -Anyway, I was not suggesting that people were intentionally trying to feed arguments out there to help the sales force, just that it is very possible that the whole thread has helped them in very unintended ways...
> 
> :



I can only assume you are correct. Some enterprising Marriott sales people will present our fears of possible/probable upcoming changes to convince some buyers to buy retail and avoid resale. That is a shame but can't be helped because I am sure their sales force reads this forum with interest to prepare them for upcoming objections from owners during the conversion sales pitches. 


Anyone who is not concerned and who trusts Marriott blindly to take care of them and what they purchased from Marriott (or resale) is too trusting IMO. Will it be as bad as some scenarios presented by myself and others here? Probably not, but you will lose some inventory availability, exchange priorities, something if they do roll out a points program. You ave to have points advantages to get owners to convert, and to give points members advantages means putting weeks members at a disadvantage.

Marriott has a finite number of weeks (prime weeks and blue weeks) at a limited number of resorts. Marriott is not bulding new resorts to launch a points program, they are splitting the current program into 2 pieces to launch points. Once they go to points every time an owner swaps to points you will have access to less weeks than you did before and that is irrefutable. How Marriott will allocate the inventory between the points and weeks groups has to be of concern. Will they give the actual week on the deed that swapped to points inventory, or simply a week within that owner's usage season at marriott's discretion? If the owner converts a platinum deeded week 42 at a  resort that floats from 18 to 42 it will make huge differences what week Marriott puts into points availability. If they put week 26 or 27 into points for points exchange(a platinum season week) there goes a week everyone wants that is out of the weeks pool into the points pool. You have no right to the deeded week on your deed, just the right to exchange wthin your designated season BASED ON AVAILABILITY. If Marriott siphons of larger proportions of prime weeks than marginal weeks in each season, the access to GOOD weeks inventory will be severelly impacted. Some here say good ole Marriott won't do that. Ths is the same good ole Marriott that is changing the entire exchanging dynamic of what you purchased with no vote from owners. Blindly trust at your peril!

By the way many like to point out DVC points and compare the 2 bragging on DVC owner satisfaction and feeling that Marriott points owners will feel the same warm fuzzy feeling towards Marriott that DVC owners feel to Disney. You are comparing apples to oranges here because this is very different. Marriott for decades sold weeks, we bought weeks, and out of the blue they decide to pull the rug out from under owners and swap ships mid stream. On the other hand DVC sold points, people bought points, and owners haven't had to ADAPT and PAY DVC to swap to a weeks program that they didn't sign up for. Some Marriott supporters are like why is everyone upset? It is going to be like DVC. Well we didn't buy DVC like points, we didn't buy Bluegreen points, we didn't buy Diamond or any ther kind of points, we bought Marriott weeks and Marriott is changing the whole dynamic of what we purchased.

One last thing, some have said why are some owners here so up in arms? This point system was designed by a DVC guy, so it will be great. DVC owners are happy. Well see how happy DVC owners were when DVC swapped exchange companies from II to RCI. Read the posts here on TUG. These people were fighting mad. How could DVC forsake them after all the money they had spent?  Why wouldn't DVC get a vote from owners before changing exchange companies? It was a horrible thing to do to members, etc, etc, etc. Many are still mad and many quit II and didn't join RCI. If they were this mad about DVC changing exchange companies, imagine how mad they would have been if DVC was changing their whole exchange system to weeks, charging members conversion fees to swap, and having salesmen give thinly veiled threats that to not swap to weeks would cause loss of available inventory and exchange opportunities. Perhaps then DVC owners would be as mad at and disgusted with DVC as some of us are with Marriott!


----------



## PerryM

m61376 said:


> At least you've been enjoying yours. I can't imagine them selling EOY weeks today and introducing what they will promote as the next best thing since sliced bread before the rescission period is even over for some purchasers and excluding them before they've even closed. Talking about creating owner discontent!
> 
> I, too, am hopeful that Marriott will do tight by its owners and that this new program will give more flexibility, but I am not unhappy with the current ownership and would be very happy for status quo. I do hope that IF the program eliminates home resort priority that a dual inventory program will work seamlessly both now and in ten years down the road. For me, the loss of home resort priority would be a deal breaker, regardless of the offer.
> 
> I am also hopeful that Marriott will do right by all its owners and not use this to stick it to resale buyers, who have loyally been supporting Marriott simply by virtue of the fact that they pay those MF's like everybody else.
> 
> I guess by this time next week we should know where we all stand and hopefully have it pretty much analyzed as to the pros and cons. I'm relying on all those with experience using point systems to post the pros and cons as they see it. *I hope Perry will join in; even though his viewpoint is a tad on the negative side, that perspective is very helpful.* Personally, I'd rather be forewarned and, if I opt to join, go in with open eyes.
> 
> I'd like to see a low fee to join (less than $500) for everyone, home resort priority (perhaps 12 months limited to current season owners booking at least 7 days and 10 or 11 months for anyone else), a fair, objective valuation (based on real market rental rates charged by Marriott), a Flexchange-type discount, the ability to borrow or bank points for one year to the next and, optimally, the ability to rent a fraction of points if needed. I think developer direct purchasers should be given the added bonus of a good conversion to rewards points option so that perk really goes back to being one. That's my wish list; let's see if they come close.



I can assure you that you will hear from me.

If not, that means I've checked into the great timeshare in the sky - or the black helicopters circling my house got me....

P.S.
I hope the first thing that happens is a .pdf of the actual new system be posted.  Until then everything is just hearsay rumors and belong here.


----------



## PerryM

*Is it cart in front of horse or ...*



tombo said:


> I can only assume you are correct. Some enterprising Marriott sales people will present our fears of possible/probable upcoming changes to convince some buyers to buy retail and avoid resale. That is a shame but can't be helped because I am sure their sales force reads this foru with interest.
> 
> 
> Anyone who is not concerned and who trusts Marriott blindly to take care of them and what they purchased from Marriott (or resale) is too trusting IMO. Will it be as bad as some scenarios presented by myself and others here? Probably not, but you will lose some inventory availability, exchange priorities, something if they do roll out a points program.
> 
> Marriott has a finite number of weeks (prime weeks and blue weeks) at a limited number of resorts. Marriott is not bulding new resorts to launch a points program, they are splitting the current program into 2 pieces to launch points. Once they go to points every time an owner swaps to points you will have access to less weeks than you did before and that is irrefutable. How Marriott will allocate the inventory between the points and weeks groups has to be of concern. Will they give the actual week on the deed that swapped to points inventory, or simply a week within that owner's usage season at marriott's discretion? If the owner converts a platinum deeded week 42 at a  resort that floats from 18 to 42 it will make huge differences what week Marriott puts into points availability. If they put week 26 or 27 into points for points exchange(a platinum season week) there goes a week everyone wants that is out of the weeks pool into the points pool. You have no right to the deeded week on your deed, just the right to exchange wthin your designated season BASED ON AVAILABILITY. If Marriott siphons of larger proportions of prime weeks than marginal weeks in each season, the access to GOOD weeks inventory will be severelly impacted. Some here say good ole Marriott won't do that. Ths is the same good ole Marriott that is changing the entire exchanging dynamic of what you purchased with no vote from owners. Blindly trust at your peril!
> 
> By the way many like to point out DVC points and compare the 2 bragging on DVC owner satisfaction and feeling that Marriott points owners will feel the same warm fuzzy feeling towards Marriott that DVC owners feel to Disney. You are comparing apples to oranges here because this is very different. Marriott for decades sold weeks, we bought weeks, and out of the blue they decide to pull the rug out from under owners and swap ships mid stream. On the other hand DVC sold points, people bought points, and owners haven't had to ADAPT and PAY DVC to swap to a weeks program that they didn't sign up for. Some Marriott supporters are like why is everyone upset? It is going to be like DVC. Well we didn't buy DVC like points, we didn't buy Bluegreen points, we didn't buy Diamond or any ther kind of points, we bought Marriott weeks and Marriott is changing the whole dynamic of what we purchased.
> 
> *One last thing, some have said why are some owners here so up in arms? This point system was designed by a DVC guy, so it will be great. DVC owners are happy.* Well see how happy DVC owners were when DVC swapped exchange companies from II to RCI. Read the posts here on TUG. These people were fighting mad. They would never get good exchanges again. How could DVC forsake them after all the money they had spent?  Why wouldn't DVC get a vote from owners before changing exchange companies? It was a horrible thing to do to members, etc, etc, etc. Many are still mad and many quit II and didn't join RCI. If they were this mad about DVC changing exchange companies, imagine how mad they would have been if DVC was changing their whole exchange system to weeks, charging members conversion fees to swap, and having salesmen give thinly veiled threats that to not swap to weeks would cause loss of available inventory and exchange opportunities. Perhaps then DVC owners would be as mad at and disgusted with DVC as some of us are with Marriott!



We own 3 Toyotas and have bought them for 20+ years - that doesn't mean that I am happy that their product killed lots of folks and they covered it up - they designed those Toyotas too.

Marriott has a lot to prove - they are the ones who are not satisfied with their own system they created and sold for 20 years to 400,000 families.

The proof of their wisdom rests on their shoulders and NOT 400,000 owners who bought into their best design of a timeshare system.

Marriott is admitting that their 20+ year old system is inadequate - just how long have they been covering that up and why should we forgive them for selling something they knew was inferior?

Marriott has to win my loyalty - not the other way around...


----------



## dougp26364

JimIg23 said:


> Until they actually tell us, the sounds we have are our own opinions only.  I hope so too if the program is good.  I bet though, if you buy more points they will be able to magically convert those EOYs or resales......



Not quite our own opinions. Fletch, who was with Marriott sales, was told Marriott won't be able to use EOY weeks. Exactly what that means could be that EOY weeks won't work in the points system, can't be sold in the points system or can't be sold and/or converted into the points system. 

What is of concern is that Fletch's understanding was that EOY weeks would not be able to convert to the new system. I'm hoping he misunderstood but my suspicion is he understood perfectly. Just because I want to believe it will be different won't make it so.

At any rate, there's is nothing I can do about what Marriott might or might not do with EOY owners like us. It's a concern and I am a little anxious but, it's not worth worrying about. If I can't convert those weeks there's nothing I can do. I'll just go on the same way we always have and continue to be happy with our ownership.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> At least you've been enjoying yours. I can't imagine them selling EOY weeks today and introducing what they will promote as the next best thing since sliced bread before the rescission period is even over for some purchasers and excluding them before they've even closed. Talking about creating owner discontent!
> 
> I, too, am hopeful that Marriott will do tight by its owners and that this new program will give more flexibility, but I am not unhappy with the current ownership and would be very happy for status quo. I do hope that IF the program eliminates home resort priority that a dual inventory program will work seamlessly both now and in ten years down the road. For me, the loss of home resort priority would be a deal breaker, regardless of the offer.
> 
> I am also hopeful that Marriott will do right by all its owners and not use this to stick it to resale buyers, who have loyally been supporting Marriott simply by virtue of the fact that they pay those MF's like everybody else.
> 
> I guess by this time next week we should know where we all stand and hopefully have it pretty much analyzed as to the pros and cons. I'm relying on all those with experience using point systems to post the pros and cons as they see it. I hope Perry will join in; even though his viewpoint is a tad on the negative side, that perspective is very helpful. Personally, I'd rather be forewarned and, if I opt to join, go in with open eyes.
> 
> I'd like to see a low fee to join (less than $500) for everyone, home resort priority (perhaps 12 months limited to current season owners booking at least 7 days and 10 or 11 months for anyone else), a fair, objective valuation (based on real market rental rates charged by Marriott), a Flexchange-type discount, the ability to borrow or bank points for one year to the next and, optimally, the ability to rent a fraction of points if needed. I think developer direct purchasers should be given the added bonus of a good conversion to rewards points option so that perk really goes back to being one. That's my wish list; let's see if they come close.



I've thought about that as well. Even though some of the weeks they're offering are at tempting prices, I'm not tempted enough to buy now knowing the change is near. 

I suppose the thing to do would be to buy a week I was interested in at the very last minute, thus reserving the right to rescind the deal should Marriott completely exclude EOY ownership. One could get a bargain price on a week that can be converted or, if Marriott excludes those weeks, rescind the deal and walk away.


----------



## m61376

tombo said:


> I can only assume you are correct. Some enterprising Marriott sales people will present our fears of possible/probable upcoming changes to convince some buyers to buy retail and avoid resale. That is a shame but can't be helped because I am sure their sales force reads this forum with interest to prepare them for upcoming objections from owners during the conversion sales pitches.
> 
> 
> Anyone who is not concerned and who trusts Marriott blindly to take care of them and what they purchased from Marriott (or resale) is too trusting IMO. Will it be as bad as some scenarios presented by myself and others here? Probably not, but you will lose some inventory availability, exchange priorities, something if they do roll out a points program. You ave to have points advantages to get owners to convert, and to give points members advantages means putting weeks members at a disadvantage.
> 
> Marriott has a finite number of weeks (prime weeks and blue weeks) at a limited number of resorts. Marriott is not bulding new resorts to launch a points program, they are splitting the current program into 2 pieces to launch points. Once they go to points every time an owner swaps to points you will have access to less weeks than you did before and that is irrefutable. How Marriott will allocate the inventory between the points and weeks groups has to be of concern. Will they give the actual week on the deed that swapped to points inventory, or simply a week within that owner's usage season at marriott's discretion? If the owner converts a platinum deeded week 42 at a  resort that floats from 18 to 42 it will make huge differences what week Marriott puts into points availability. If they put week 26 or 27 into points for points exchange(a platinum season week) there goes a week everyone wants that is out of the weeks pool into the points pool. You have no right to the deeded week on your deed, just the right to exchange wthin your designated season BASED ON AVAILABILITY. If Marriott siphons of larger proportions of prime weeks than marginal weeks in each season, the access to GOOD weeks inventory will be severelly impacted. Some here say good ole Marriott won't do that. Ths is the same good ole Marriott that is changing the entire exchanging dynamic of what you purchased with no vote from owners. Blindly trust at your peril!
> 
> By the way many like to point out DVC points and compare the 2 bragging on DVC owner satisfaction and feeling that Marriott points owners will feel the same warm fuzzy feeling towards Marriott that DVC owners feel to Disney. You are comparing apples to oranges here because this is very different. Marriott for decades sold weeks, we bought weeks, and out of the blue they decide to pull the rug out from under owners and swap ships mid stream. On the other hand DVC sold points, people bought points, and owners haven't had to ADAPT and PAY DVC to swap to a weeks program that they didn't sign up for. Some Marriott supporters are like why is everyone upset? It is going to be like DVC. Well we didn't buy DVC like points, we didn't buy Bluegreen points, we didn't buy Diamond or any ther kind of points, we bought Marriott weeks and Marriott is changing the whole dynamic of what we purchased.
> 
> One last thing, some have said why are some owners here so up in arms? This point system was designed by a DVC guy, so it will be great. DVC owners are happy. Well see how happy DVC owners were when DVC swapped exchange companies from II to RCI. Read the posts here on TUG. These people were fighting mad. How could DVC forsake them after all the money they had spent?  Why wouldn't DVC get a vote from owners before changing exchange companies? It was a horrible thing to do to members, etc, etc, etc. Many are still mad and many quit II and didn't join RCI. If they were this mad about DVC changing exchange companies, imagine how mad they would have been if DVC was changing their whole exchange system to weeks, charging members conversion fees to swap, and having salesmen give thinly veiled threats that to not swap to weeks would cause loss of available inventory and exchange opportunities. Perhaps then DVC owners would be as mad at and disgusted with DVC as some of us are with Marriott!


Very well said!

As for how Marriott determines which week goes into the point pool- wouldn't they either have to acknowledge the week on the deed they are taking back- so that they would then retain the rights to whatever week was on the deed or, alternately, maintain the stance that the week indication was for inventory purposes only and, if that is the case, wouldn't they only be entitled to whatever portion of every week according to the percentage of point weeks versus week weeks (so if 25% of owners convert to points, then 25% of every available arrival date will be in the points pool and 75% left in the weeks pool)? Of course, that would mean the percentages would constantly be in flux, as potentially more people opt in over time.

Legally, can they just arbitrarily decide which week they want to assign to the points pool? I would think (and hope) that it would either be a straight percentage or according to the actual deeded week. If the latter- it will be interesting, because of course the more in demand weeks will be more rewarding for Marriott to convert. And, at least some of those are resale weeks (as a matter of fact, my Plat. Aruba week happens to have one of the highest TDI weeks on the deed).


----------



## DanCali

m61376 said:


> Legally, can they just arbitrarily decide which week they want to assign to the points pool?



I've been screaming about this topic all day yesterday. I'm glad tombo raised it again. I'm also very glad people are beginning to think about these details rather than count how many units they'll convert before the rules are even out...

The devil is in these types of details.


----------



## rickxylon

*Point system & AC's*

How would a point system work with Accomodation Certificates (both receiving and using)?


----------



## RandR

DanCali said:


> I've been screaming about this topic all day yesterday. I'm glad tombo raised it again. I'm also very glad people are beginning to think about these details rather than count how many units they'll convert before the rules are even out...
> 
> The devil is in these types of details.



And that is why it will be so important for someone to get paperwork with ALL of the details.  Just listening to a sales presentation will not be enough because I am sure that some questions will be left out.  So those TUGgers who will be the first to hear about it at their ts please try and get stuff in writing.


----------



## tombo

m61376 said:


> Legally, can they just arbitrarily decide which week they want to assign to the points pool? I would think (and hope) that it would either be a straight percentage or according to the actual deeded week. If the latter- it will be interesting, because of course the more in demand weeks will be more rewarding for Marriott to convert. And, at least some of those are resale weeks (as a matter of fact, my Plat. Aruba week happens to have one of the highest TDI weeks on the deed).



Marriott has an incentive to place more prime weeks within a season in the points system as people convert leaving more less than prime in season weeks in the original weeks program. Unless someone can find anything in their contract stating otherwise, yes Marriott can and will stack the deck in favor of their new program. You are deeded access to weeks in your season (platinum, gold, etc) BASED ON AVAILABILITY. You were never guaranteed access to the week on your deed. Marriott has the rights to your specific deeded week and everyone else's to allocate as they see fit. Marriott never promised x% of the prime weeks in a season would be available to exchange for, or that they would guarantee x number of prime weeks. Your new availability will be whatever weeks marriott has yet to steal for points inventory.

Why would the benevolent Marriott favor the new points owners over the original owners? Because it is best for Marriott and Marriott's profits. They are not selling weeks anymore, they are selling points and the old system and profits from the old system are ancient history. All Marriott loyalty, and the Marriott corporate strategy from here on out is based on points. If you aren't points you aren't important. Worse than that, the worse your trading experiences under weeks becomes, the better spokesperson you are for the advantages of points and the more likely you are to convert or sell to someone who will convert. A disgruntled weeks owner is a future points buyer in Marriott's eyes. Rather than addressing your concerns, they will profit on them!

If people a year from now are laying by the pool saying that getting a good exchange with points is impossible and they had better luck in the weeks program, the sales of ponts and conversions will suffer and the program could be in jeopardy. If however everyone by the pool and on the web is bragging about getting new years ski weeks, 4th of july on Hilton head, cheering about the ability to exchange for weeks and resorts they never could get before they joined points, then the sales and conversions will be much easier. Who do you think Marriott wants to get the prime trades, points members, or weeks owners? Be realistic when answering and you know it is points.

To jump start the points program I assume Marriott will place all developer owned weeks into points inventory, all reposessed/delinquent MF's weeks into points, and most if not all conversions will have one of the best in season weeks deposited into points inventory. This will give new points owners the best access to the best weeks proving to all skeptics that points memberships are  much better than deeded weeks when exchanging. However when enough people convert to points the advantages of preferential inventory will diminish because Marriott has not actually created any new inventory when they created a points program. Then the reality will set in that you simply paid more money to have the same access to the same weeks you had before the points scam was launched.


----------



## SueDonJ

I think this is where some of the Starwood owners could help us out, by pointing out the contract language that gives Starwood the right (or not!) to choose which weeks are deposited to II when an owner requests an exchange.  Browsing that board I get the impression that there isn't any such language, which is why Starwood didn't have to announce their processing change last year and why owners don't have any recourse for the perceived loss of exchange value.

However it all works out, I can't imagine that the week numbers on existing deeds will be used to account for anything other than what their intended use is - an accounting measure to prevent the developer from selling more than a particular available interval.  If Marriott arbitrarily decides to assign some other value to those deeded week numbers without benefit of the owner giving up that protection, they will be in violation of a number of contract provisions.  It just can't happen in a floating system that usage of unconverted weeks will be limited to existing deeded weeks and/or usage of points will be limited to the weeks on converted deeds.

I think that while it's true the devil is in the details, it's also true that we will probably not be entitled to as many details as some of us are demanding.  This thread has taken a somewhat insulting turn, IMO, with the comments about "blind faith" and "counting units to convert without details."  No one has said that they'll be unconditionally buying into whatever Marriott is selling; it's just that each of us has a general understanding of what our particular needs will be in order to consider buying in.  Lighten up on the "blind faith" already.


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## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> I
> 
> However it all works out, I can't imagine that the week numbers on existing deeds will be used to account for anything other than what their intended use is - an accounting measure to prevent the developer from selling more than a particular available interval.  If Marriott arbitrarily decides to assign some other value to those deeded week numbers without benefit of the owner giving up that protection, they will be in violation of a number of contract provisions.  It just can't happen in a floating system that usage of unconverted weeks will be limited to existing deeded weeks and/or usage of points will be limited to the weeks on converted deeds.
> 
> .



Which is the exact problem we are discussing. Since the deeded week is nothing more than an accounting number to prevent the overselling of weeks with no rights to access to your deeded week, Marriott can do whatever they want to with regards to where they place specific weeks. Platinum owners who have weeks that float from week 18 to 34 have no specific rights to the June and July weeks regardless of what is on the deed. 

Use the example of a beach Platinum season that has available weeks from weeks 18 to 34. If a weeks owner with a deeded week 26 or 27 refuses to convert to points, Marriott can still put his deeded week 26 or 27 into the points inventory removing it from weeks inventory when someone with a deeded week 18 converts to points. So every time a platinum owner converts to points marriott can place a week 22 to 30 into the points inventory, no matter what is on the deed, giving points all prime weeks. Nothing illegal, no documented rights of weeks owners usurped. Marriott is within their legal rights to place any prime platinum in season week they choose into the points inventory pool every time someone converts. So yes the points trades will be great prime in season weeks and the people who don't convert to ponts will end up with a glut of weeks 18 to 21 and 31 to 34 to exchange for with their Platinum deeded week. 

Marriott sold the deeded owners the right to exchange for weeks within their season based on availability. They never bothered to mention that they were going to reduce availability by starting an entirelly new points program. But heck they are giving you what they legally sold you. You will get to exchange for the remaining weeks platinum inventory based on availability. What a deal.


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## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> I think that while it's true the devil is in the details, it's also true that we will probably not be entitled to as many details as some of us are demanding.  This thread has taken a somewhat insulting turn, IMO, with the comments about "blind faith" and "counting units to convert without details."  No one has said that they'll be unconditionally buying into whatever Marriott is selling; it's just that each of us has a general understanding of what our particular needs will be in order to consider buying in.  Lighten up on the "blind faith" already.



Sorry if I was among those whose comments have offended anyone. That was certainly not the intent... I tend to be a bit cynical at times when making an argument, but it's not personal in any way - just how I talk. In the end, we're all on the same side no matter if we end up as weeks or points owners.

Just so you understand where I come from... I started with Starwood ownership and, while I love their resorts, I have seen how a management company can maneuver in gray areas to profit at owners' expense. I then did plenty of research and bought into Marriott because I heard rave reviews and liked the system. In the little time that I've owned, it's worked great for me... Having seen what Starwood does, I can't help be a bit cynical when I see Marriott possibly going down the same path.


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## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> Which is the exact problem we are discussing. Since the deeded week is nothing more than an accounting number to prevent the overselling of weeks with no rights to access to your deeded week, Marriott can do whatever they want to with regards to where they place specific weeks. Platinum owners who have weeks that float from week 18 to 34 have no specific rights to the June and July weeks regardless of what is on the deed.
> 
> Use the example of a beach Platinum season that has available weeks from weeks 18 to 34. If a weeks owner with a deeded week 26 or 27 refuses to convert to points, Marriott can still put his deeded week 26 or 27 into the points inventory removing it from weeks inventory when someone with a deeded week 18 converts to points. So every time a platinum owner converts to points marriott can place a week 22 to 30 into the points inventory, no matter what is on the deed, giving points all prime weeks. Nothing illegal, no documented rights of weeks owners usurped. Marriott is within their legal rights to place any prime platinum in season week they choose into the points inventory pool every time someone converts. So yes the points trades will be great prime in season weeks and the people who don't convert to ponts will end up with a glut of weeks 18 to 21 and 31 to 34 to exchange for with their Platinum deeded week.
> 
> Marriott sold the deeded owners the right to exchange for weeks within their season based on availability. They never bothered to mention that they were going to reduce availability by starting an entirelly new points program. But heck they are giving you what they legally sold you. You will get to exchange for the remaining weeks platinum inventory based on availability. What a deal.



But my point is, the basic premise of what they've sold already won't be changed by the introduction of a system in which weeks can be optionally converted to points with different usage opportunities.  Every MVCI owner who bought into the floating week system will still be able to reserve according to availability.

The contracts for floating weeks do not guarantee that availability will not be subject to future "product enhancements" (don't they always use that phrase?), they do not guarantee a certain week's usage, and they do not guarantee a certain exchange value.  Whatever perception we might have saddled ourselves with, that our usage would always be the same as it was on the day of purchase or historically, isn't Marriott's responsibility to uphold.  I frankly find it very hard to believe that ANY sales presentation - by Marriott reps or external resale reps - would have included that verbal guarantee.  But it wouldn't matter anyway, because the written contracts are binding while verbal representations are not.

I still go back to, Marriott has implemented the 12/13-month rule on as fair a basis as possible by dividing the available inventory for every possible check-in day by 50%, because of the related contract stipulations.  We will be able to review the contracts for points conversion to determine if they contain similar stipulations.  If so, all the worry here over Marriott skimming the best weeks for points owners' usage is wasted.  If the contracts don't support it, though, such as what appears to be the case with Starwood, then we'll just have to accept it.  In either case, a request to review the contracts prior to conversion (which IME has been granted in the case of weeks sales,) or during a rescission period will tell us what we need to know in order to determine if we want to proceed with converting or not.


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> This thread has taken a somewhat insulting turn, IMO, with the comments about "blind faith" and "counting units to convert without details."  No one has said that they'll be unconditionally buying into whatever Marriott is selling; it's just that each of us has a general understanding of what our particular needs will be in order to consider buying in.  Lighten up on the "blind faith" already.



You could be referring to someone else ( I hope so), but this is my quote where I used the term Blind Faith:

"Anyone who is not concerned and who trusts Marriott blindly to take care of them and what they purchased from Marriott (or resale) is too trusting IMO."

Not an offensive statement, not a statement naming any particular person, and still a statement I stand by. If  MARRIOTT OWNERS ( not you specifically) are going to trust Marriott to do what is best for them with reagrds to the new points program, I think they are too trusting, or naive, and either way in for a rude awakening (once again IMO).


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## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Sorry if I was among those whose comments have offended anyone. That was certainly not the intent... I tend to be a bit cynical at times when making an argument, but it's not personal in any way - just how I talk. In the end, we're all on the same side no matter if we end up as weeks or points owners.
> 
> Just so you understand where I come from... I started with Starwood ownership and, while I love their resorts, I have seen how a management company can maneuver in gray areas to profit at owners' expense. I then did plenty of research and bought into Marriott because I heard rave reviews and liked the system. In the little time that I've owned, it's worked great for me... Having seen what Starwood does, I can't help be a bit cynical when I see Marriott possibly going down the same path.



I can certainly understand that!  It's one of the reasons why I think this thread is so helpful, because it lets us look at every angle each time somebody adds a new thought to the discussion.  Maybe the only difference is that some of us are starting with a dose of cynicism rather than picking it up now?


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## Fredm

SueDonJ said:


> I think that while it's true the devil is in the details, it's also true that we will probably not be entitled to as many details as some of us are demanding.  This thread has taken a somewhat insulting turn, IMO, with the comments about "blind faith" and "counting units to convert without details."  No one has said that they'll be unconditionally buying into whatever Marriott is selling; it's just that each of us has a general understanding of what our particular needs will be in order to consider buying in.  Lighten up on the "blind faith" already.



I agree with you. 

The devil may be in the details. But, some details will never be known.
No developer is going to lay bare the intricate details of its inventory management.

It really comes down to whether one believes that Marriott will follow the law. Of course they will. The law protects reservation rights for deeded week owners. 

As for the rest of it, each of us must decide if the benefits/drawbacks of the new (yet unexplained) system will warrant our participation. The issue that matters to most is the cost of participating in whatever is introduced. If the buy-in is free, most will give it a try no matter what it is.  The rest is in the eating. That will likely take a couple of years to evaluate.

Those that bought to occupy their home resort should care less about the new program.


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## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> But my point is, the basic premise of what they've sold already won't be changed by the introduction of a system in which weeks can be optionally converted to points with different usage opportunities.  Every MVCI owner who bought into the floating week system will still be able to reserve according to availability.
> 
> The contracts for floating weeks do not guarantee that availability will not be subject to future "product enhancements" (don't they always use that phrase?), they do not guarantee a certain week's usage, and they do not guarantee a certain exchange value.  Whatever perception we might have saddled ourselves with, that our usage would always be the same as it was on the day of purchase or historically, isn't Marriott's responsibility to uphold.  I frankly find it very hard to believe that ANY sales presentation - by Marriott reps or external resale reps - would have included that verbal guarantee.  But it wouldn't matter anyway, because the written contracts are binding while verbal representations are not.
> 
> .



So you have no problem with Marriott taking weeks 22 to 30 and converting one of those prime weeks to points every time a platinum beach owner converts just because it is legal? Marriott's blatant disregard for current owner's loss for the benefit of "points members" is irrelevant? You don't mind that 100% of the converted points inventory will be prime platinum weeks while the majority of people who don't convert will choose from 100% of the non prime in season weeks (18 to 21 and 31 to 34) that marriott left in weeks and the ever decreasing availability of prime in season weeks? 

So Marriott's plan to force owners to either pay to convert or be squeezed out by Marriott's transferance of prime inventory from weeks to points is a good thing? We will have to disagree on this. Marriott is using legal language in the contracts to change the entire Marriott timeshare program just to force owners to pay more or lose inventory access. That is wrong. If they really wanted to roll out a great new program to benefit owners, it would be offered for free!!! It isn't going to be free, it is extortion to make Marriott money on the backs of current owners. 

The fact that other timeshare companies have done it doesn't make it right. I thought that Marriott was more ethical  than most companies, but I was obviously wrong.


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## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> I think this is where some of the Starwood owners could help us out, by pointing out the contract language that gives Starwood the right (or not!) to choose which weeks are deposited to II when an owner requests an exchange.  Browsing that board I get the impression that there isn't any such language, which is why Starwood didn't have to announce their processing change last year and why owners don't have any recourse for the perceived loss of exchange value.



I don't trade my Starwood units (a 2BR lockoff) via II primarily because the Starwood II system is not what Marriott owners are used to. Because Starwood picks the deposited weeks, you don't really know what gets deposited when you deposit or when others deposit so it's not immediately obvious you'll get a summer Hawaii week even if you have a great trader. If I wanted to travel off season I may feel differently about it. I would not be surprised if Marriott retains control of the deposited II weeks for the points owners since that can be easily written in the new documents.

The issue with Starwood was that they always had the right to retain control of the II deposited weeks for units part of SVN (Starwood Vacation Network - i.e., the points system). All retail units are part of SVN as well as resale units at the mandatory resorts (Westin Maui N/S, Westin Kierland, Vistana Villages first 2 phases, Harborside and St. John phase 1). The only weeks that could use II similar to Marriott were resale units at voluntary resorts which, to keep things in perspective, is only a minority of owners (but quite a few tuggers). In fact, the original rules were written such that, for SVN owners, Starwood could deposit any week that was "comparable" to the season you owned, including a week from a different resort. So if someone wanted to deposit a Gold Harborside week, Starwood may deposit a summer Maui week instead...

About a year ago the rules changed such that now Starwood will actually deposit a week from the resort you own but applied those rules to everyone, including voluntary resale owners who are not part of SVN and cannot trade with points. As an SVN owner (I own at a mandatory resort, resale), Starwood had the right to do what they did previously because it was in the SVN documents and they probably have the right to change those rules as they did. It's even possible that the current rules are better for SVN owners because they leave the better inventory in the points system and they deposit the resort you own into II with trading power equal to the average of the season you own. Resale owners at voluntary resorts (probably 5%-10% of total owners) have a very legitimate gripe because they were never part of SVN, they never agreed to the old rules, and the new rules completely changed the way they think about exchanges as well as the inventory available to them even though they still can't use points. I'm sure Starwood thinks what they did is legal. Some owners beg to differ. Personally, I think they want to have their cake and eat it too...

The analogy to the Marriott world would be first Marriott retaining control of weeks deposited into II for points owners. If you join the points program you know the rules and agree to them. That's cool... Later though, they decide they do the same to the weeks owners who didn't convert, and siphon all that inventory to the points system (or to themselves) while giving II unreserved weeks in the same season. That wouldn't go over so well with weeks owners...


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## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> You could be referring to someone else ( I hope so), but this is my quote where I used the term Blind Faith:
> 
> "Anyone who is not concerned and who trusts Marriott blindly to take care of them and what they purchased from Marriott (or resale) is too trusting IMO."
> 
> Not an offensive statement, not a statement naming any particular person, and still a statement I stand by. If  MARRIOTT OWNERS ( not you specifically) are going to trust Marriott to do what is best for them with reagrds to the new points program, I think they are too trusting, or naive, and either way in for a rude awakening (once again IMO).



That's the general tone that I'm objecting to, yes.  Even though your post and similar comments haven't been directed to any one specific individual or in response to any one specific post, I question why it's necessary to bring up the "blind faith" concept at all in this thread seeing as nobody here has admitted that they are relying unconditionally on Marriott to protect their individual interests.  It's not all that big a deal, but it would be nice if similar comments don't make their way here.  Now it sounds like I'm trying to be The Boss Of The Thread and that's not what I want either.  It's just something to think about.


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## Darlene

We have a deeded week at Marriott Monarch, and we receive a confirmation from Marriott for our reservation for our deeded week.  I don't do anything, I don't even have to call. It is automatically done, and then either I have to deposit the week to exchange or call and take the points for the week before the December 31st deadline. Are you saying that Marriott is going to change or stop giving us our deeded week unless we convert to points?
I checked and our reservation is there for next year. It was made 18 months ahead.  
Darlene


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## SueDonJ

Does anybody else think that this particular twist in the thread, of how Marriott will be handling weeks and points inventory, could have been the basis for a similar loooonnnngggg thread if TUG existed when the 12/13-mo rule was implemented?  I do wonder what the owners of resorts where the rule wasn't written into the contracts thought as that was rolled out across the entire system, and I imagine they were not very happy.


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## SueDonJ

Darlene said:


> We have a deeded week at Marriott Monarch, and we receive a confirmation from Marriott for our reservation for our deeded week.  I don't do anything, I don't even have to call. It is automatically done, and then either I have to deposit the week to exchange or call and take the points for the week before the December 31st deadline. Are you saying that Marriott is going to change or stop giving us our deeded week unless we convert to points?
> Darlene



It sounds like you have a fixed week, Darlene, and I would expect owners of fixed weeks to have more protection for their usage (whether it's occupying or exchanging) than floating weeks.  It's possible you may have to deal with a different exchange value within II's system if Marriott's change affects II overall, but your home resort usage and exchanges for Marriott Reward Points shouldn't be negatively impacted.  Or at least, it's not been speculated in this thread that fixed weeks owners will lose those options.


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## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> So you have no problem with Marriott taking weeks 22 to 30 and converting one of those prime weeks to points every time a platinum beach owner converts just because it is legal? Marriott's blatant disregard for current owner's loss for the benefit of "points members" is irrelevant? You don't mind that 100% of the converted points inventory will be prime platinum weeks while the majority of people who don't convert will choose from 100% of the non prime in season weeks (18 to 21 and 31 to 34) that marriott left in weeks and the ever decreasing availability of prime in season weeks?
> 
> So Marriott's plan to force owners to either pay to convert or be squeezed out by Marriott's transferance of prime inventory from weeks to points is a good thing? We will have to disagree on this. Marriott is using legal language in the contracts to change the entire Marriott timeshare program just to force owners to pay more or lose inventory access. That is wrong. If they really wanted to roll out a great new program to benefit owners, it would be offered for free!!! It isn't going to be free, it is extortion to make Marriott money on the backs of current owners.
> 
> The fact that other timeshare companies have done it doesn't make it right. I thought that Marriott was more ethical  than most companies, but I was obviously wrong.



The way I think with ANYTHING related to our timeshares, is that they're ethical if they're adhering to the contracts.  That's it. That's all it comes down to.  If this was a thread about what I WANT them to do, I'd be demanding that they give me first choice for whatever I want!  And you could do the same!

Whether or not whatever they do now or offer in the future benefits me or you or any certain percentage of owners or all owners or no owners is good for discussion, sure, but I just don't understand why we on TUG continually demand something from Marriott that they're not contractually obligated to give us.  It doesn't matter if the current system works or doesn't work for us individually, and it doesn't matter if we want them to change it or not.  What matters is that they CAN change things and as long as they do so legally, we can only deal with what they offer or get out.

{edited to add}  But aside from that, you're making quite a few specific assumptions about how Marriott WILL handle inventory in a possible new points system, and you're asking me to agree with your premise that Marriott is planning to hurt owners based on those assumptions.  How can I agree with your premise if I don't know that the assumptions are correct?


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## Darlene

Yes, a fixed week.  Sorry, I wasn't distinguishing between fixed vs deeded. I think we will have to start using our week. I've never been to Hilton Head, and have enjoyed it's high trading value. 
I do agree that Marriott will look out for what's best for Marriott. Living in SLC, I know so many people that have bought Marriott and truly think that Marriott is looking out for them. What because he's Mormon? Think again. It's a business.
Darlene


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## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> I don't trade my Starwood units (a 2BR lockoff) via II primarily because the Starwood II system is not what Marriott owners are used to. Because Starwood picks the deposited weeks, you don't really know what gets deposited when you deposit or when others deposit so it's not immediately obvious you'll get a summer Hawaii week even if you have a great trader. If I wanted to travel off season I may feel differently about it. I would not be surprised if Marriott retains control of the deposited II weeks for the points owners since that can be easily written in the new documents.
> 
> The issue with Starwood was that they always had the right to retain control of the II deposited weeks for units part of SVN (Starwood Vacation Network - i.e., the points system). All retail units are part of SVN as well as resale units at the mandatory resorts (Westin Maui N/S, Westin Kierland, Vistana Villages first 2 phases, Harborside and St. John phase 1). The only weeks that could use II similar to Marriott were resale units at voluntary resorts which, to keep things in perspective, is only a minority of owners (but quite a few tuggers). In fact, the original rules were written such that, for SVN owners, Starwood could deposit any week that was "comparable" to the season you owned, including a week from a different resort. So if someone wanted to deposit a Gold Harborside week, Starwood may deposit a summer Maui week instead...
> 
> About a year ago the rules changed such that now Starwood will actually deposit a week from the resort you own but applied those rules to everyone, including voluntary resale owners who are not part of SVN and cannot trade with points. As an SVN owner (I own at a mandatory resort, resale), Starwood had the right to do what they did previously because it was in the SVN documents and they probably have the right to change those rules as they did. It's even possible that the current rules are better for SVN owners because they leave the better inventory in the points system and they deposit the resort you own into II with trading power equal to the average of the season you own. Resale owners at voluntary resorts (probably 5%-10% of total owners) have a very legitimate gripe because they were never part of SVN, they never agreed to the old rules, and the new rules completely changed the way they think about exchanges as well as the inventory available to them even though they still can't use points. I'm sure Starwood thinks what they did is legal. Some owners beg to differ. Personally, I think they want to have their cake and eat it too...
> 
> The analogy to the Marriott world would be first Marriott retaining control of weeks deposited into II for points owners. If you join the points program you know the rules and agree to them. That's cool... Later though, they decide they do the same to the weeks owners who didn't convert, and siphon all that inventory to the points system (or to themselves) while giving II unreserved weeks in the same season. That wouldn't go over so well with weeks owners...



Thanks, Dan, this is a great post.  As things progress with Marriott and whatever new thing is implemented, it will be interesting to see the threads here that will be similar to the ones on the Starwood board.  What I find most interesting is that not all owners are in agreement - there have been quite a few posts taking the position that what's in place now offers more opportunity for truer equal exchanges, and that what people got in the past were actually up-trades.  I'm all for more equitable exchanges, but sadly that does mean some will have to accept a reduced exchange value.


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## DanCali

tombo said:


> So you have no problem with Marriott taking weeks 22 to 30 and converting one of those prime weeks to points every time a platinum beach owner converts just because it is legal? Marriott's blatant disregard for current owner's loss for the benefit of "points members" is irrelevant? You don't mind that 100% of the converted points inventory will be prime platinum weeks while the majority of people who don't convert will choose from 100% of the non prime in season weeks (18 to 21 and 31 to 34) that marriott left in weeks and the ever decreasing availability of prime in season weeks?



I imagine there are some state laws that protect owners from Marriott's right to do what it wants just by the mere fact it's not forbidden in the resort docs. Fredm pointed out to some, but the legalese was too much for me...

I sure would like to know the answer to this one though...


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## RandR

Fredm said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> The devil may be in the details. But, some details will never be known.
> No developer is going to lay bare the intricate details of its inventory management.
> 
> It really comes down to whether one believes that Marriott will follow the law. Of course they will. The law protects reservation rights for deeded week owners.
> 
> As for the rest of it, each of us must decide if the benefits/drawbacks of the new (yet unexplained) system will warrant our participation. The issue that matters to most is the cost of participating in whatever is introduced. If the buy-in is free, most will give it a try no matter what it is.  The rest is in the eating. That will likely take a couple of years to evaluate.
> 
> Those that bought to occupy their home resort should care less about the new program.



On the surface that seems true but if Tombo's thought that Marriott will skim the best weeks in a  season for the points program, it doesn't hold.  If I am not able to get school vacation weeks at my home resort because Marriott syphoned them to the points program when people converted then I have a big problem with the new system.  Hopefully Marriott will set it up more like the 13/12 month rule so that it isn't too bad.


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## RandR

SueDonJ said:


> The way I think with ANYTHING related to our timeshares, is that they're ethical if they're adhering to the contracts.  That's it. That's all it comes down to.  If this was a thread about what I WANT them to do, I'd be demanding that they give me first choice for whatever I want!  And you could do the same!
> 
> Whether or not whatever they do now or offer in the future benefits me or you or any certain percentage of owners or all owners or no owners is good for discussion, sure, but I just don't understand why we on TUG continually demand something from Marriott that they're not contractually obligated to give us.  It doesn't matter if the current system works or doesn't work for us individually, and it doesn't matter if we want them to change it or not.  What matters is that they CAN change things and as long as they do so legally, we can only deal with what they offer or get out.
> 
> {edited to add}  But aside from that, you're making quite a few specific assumptions about how Marriott WILL handle inventory in a possible new points system, and you're asking me to agree with your premise that Marriott is planning to hurt owners based on those assumptions.  How can I agree with your premise if I don't know that the assumptions are correct?



So what you are saying is that if it is legal for Marriott to take all the best weeks first when people convert to points and leave you, the weeks owner (assuming you stay with weeks), the less desirable weeks you would be fine with that since they stayed within the law?  So you or others that bought direct and spent a lot of money (not a knock on direct buyers, just stating a fact) to get a specific week(s) during prime season would now say 'oh well they played by the letter of the law so I guess there's nothing I can do'?  Am I understanding you correctly?


----------



## Y-ASK

tombo said:


> Use the example of a beach Platinum season that has available weeks from weeks 18 to 34. If a weeks owner with a deeded week 26 or 27 refuses to convert to points, Marriott can still put his deeded week 26 or 27 into the points inventory removing it from weeks inventory when someone with a deeded week 18 converts to points. So every time a platinum owner converts to points marriott can place a week 22 to 30 into the points inventory, no matter what is on the deed, giving points all prime weeks.



I think it all depends on if they split the inventory which I think would be difficult to do and then not get caught with their hands in the cookie jar by reserving mostly prime weeks for points owners.  If they allow both types of owners (Deeds and Points) the same shot at calling in and either getting a points reservation or a weeks reservation then I think the program would be considered "fair".  But if there is no home resort preference period then the owner who does not convert is going to be pretty disappointed because not only would you have the same resort owners trying to reserve a prime week, you would also have all the other points owners from other resorts trying to get that prime week at your resort as well.  That my friend would be what would piss me off about the whole deal.  I too will wait for the details but I can't imagine that they could legally take a week 18 deed into the trust and then split out a week 27 for points owners only.  Unfortunately unless they put it all in writing, no one will know for sure unless someone brings a lawsuit and they get the info. through discovery....


Y-ASK


----------



## PerryM

*That huge yellow grader coming down the road is for you....*



SueDonJ said:


> Thanks, Dan, this is a great post.  As things progress with Marriott and whatever new thing is implemented, it will be interesting to see the threads here that will be similar to the ones on the Starwood board.  What I find most interesting is that not all owners are in agreement - there have been quite a few posts taking the position that what's in place now offers more opportunity for truer equal exchanges, and that what people got in the past were actually up-trades.  *I'm all for more equitable exchanges, but sadly that does mean some will have to accept a reduced exchange value.*



I believe ALL Marriott owners will have reduced exchange value - ALL.

In my case there isn't any question - I'm not going to go to Maui anymore either joining Marriott or staying with II.

I can't think of a case where ANY Marriott owner will do better than what they have now.

Sure you can combine Points from a few Gold weeks and get Platinum but kiss ANY existing "upgrades" bye bye.

This is exactly what you would expect with a sales/exchange system - Marriott "lost" lots of money for 20+ years by allowing owners to exchange upwards - that should have been their upgrades to sell.

So starting on 6/21/10 your ability to upgrade an exchange now belongs to Marriott.

What about II?

I'm assuming the 24-day rule will expire soon and my Gold week will exchange in II for a similar Gold unit.  II will have the opportunity to level the playing field too.

This is going to be a great opportunity for Marriott and II to level the playing field and pocket all those lost upgrades they have been eying for 20 years.


----------



## SueDonJ

RandR said:


> So what you are saying is that if it is legal for Marriott to take all the best weeks first when people convert to points and leave you, the weeks owner (assuming you stay with weeks), the less desirable weeks you would be fine with that since they stayed within the law?  So you or others that bought direct and spent a lot of money (not a knock on direct buyers, just stating a fact) to get a specific week(s) during prime season would now say 'oh well they played by the letter of the law so I guess there's nothing I can do'?  Am I understanding you correctly?



Well first, I didn't buy to get a specific week!  I bought into a floating system which gets me a week in a specific season subject to the availability rules, which can change if the contracts allow it.  History tells me that Marriott has changed the rules (to the detriment of certain owners) when they implemented the 12/13-mo rule, so it wouldn't come as a surprise if they do it again.

But besides that, I've already said in this thread that I don't believe the contract language will allow for Marriott to remove usage of any certain weeks from the current floating system for as long as deeds for the floating season continue to exist.  Marriott cannot unilaterally remove from deeded weeks owners the opportunity to reserve any week within their season (which is not the same as owners reserving and thus removing from reservation inventory certain weeks.)

What they can do is make all reservations, weeks and points, subject to availability on a first-come-first-served basis, with priority as exists now for multi-week owners and possibly for points owners.  But they don't currently correlate usage of 13-mo inventory to week numbers contained in existing deeds, so I'm not convinced that they will have to correlate usage of points inventory to the week numbers contained in the deeds that are converted or to specific weeks in the purchase inventory.  Couldn't the points system be integrated that way, so that all reservations are first-come-first-served with various reservation priorities, while week numbers are simply utilized for inventory controls to prevent Marriott from overselling particular intervals as well as limiting weeks/points reservations to the number of corresponding owners?  I think so.

But in the end, again, all that will matter is whether or not the system they implement is supported by the contracts.


----------



## RandR

Susan, I agree and hope that they do it the way you describe.  If the points system is allocated the % of each week in the floating system that corresponds to the number of weeks converted then it would be just like the 13/12 month rule.  As you say, not necessarily going to make me happy but still a fair way to do it.

As far as contract language, the new contracts can be made to say anything as long as they don't violate anything from the existing contracts.  Look in your existing contract.  Does it say that you are guaranteed a week in your season or a shot at each week in your season?  I am not as doom and gloom as some but still don't fully trust what is going to happen.


----------



## SueDonJ

PerryM said:


> I believe ALL Marriott owners will have reduced exchange value - ALL. ...



That's not my thought at all.  I own non-lockoff 3BR Hilton Head Platinum and Gold weeks.  In II now I get 2BR because of severely limited 3BR inventory.  Within the new points system I have some expectation of actually getting 3BR in exchange, because those owners won't have to reserve, lock-off and deposit their weeks in order to get their exchange value.  Even if I choose to accept a 2BR Hawaii week (which I would consider equal exchange value to my 3BR HH,) that's still not as low as the exchange value I'm currently "enjoying" with II.  There's no way that this system will give me reduced value from what I get now!


----------



## rsackett

PerryM said:


> I believe ALL Marriott owners will have reduced exchange value - ALL.
> 
> In my case there isn't any question - I'm not going to go to Maui anymore either joining Marriott or staying with II.
> 
> I can't think of a case where ANY Marriott owner will do better than what they have now.
> 
> Sure you can combine Points from a few Gold weeks and get Platinum but kiss ANY existing "upgrades" bye bye.
> 
> This is exactly what you would expect with a sales/exchange system - Marriott "lost" lots of money for 20+ years by allowing owners to exchange upwards - that should have been their upgrades to sell.
> 
> So starting on 6/21/10 your ability to upgrade an exchange now belongs to Marriott.
> 
> What about II?
> 
> I'm assuming the 24-day rule will expire soon and my Gold week will exchange in II for a similar Gold unit.  II will have the opportunity to level the playing field too.
> 
> This is going to be a great opportunity for Marriott and II to level the playing field and pocket all those lost upgrades they have been eying for 20 years.



But for all those upgrades you got someone had to be downgraded, or am I missing something?  I have on occation been upgraded to a nicer resort, but generaly took a smaller unit.  It seems in my mind that like for like (whatever that means) would be a more fair system, no?

ray


----------



## l2trade

SueDonJ said:


> ... Within the new points system I have some expectation of actually getting 3BR in exchange, because those owners won't have to reserve, lock-off and deposit their weeks in order to get their exchange value. ...



We don't know that is the case, do we?  With some points systems, the lock-off and deposit is worth more points than if you deposit the unit whole.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Couldn't the points system be integrated that way, so that all reservations are first-come-first-served with various reservation priorities, while week numbers are simply utilized for inventory controls to prevent Marriott from overselling particular intervals as well as limiting weeks/points reservations to the number of corresponding owners?  I think so.
> 
> But in the end, again, all that will matter is whether or not the system they implement is supported by the contracts.



No, I don't believe the system cannot be integrated in the way you suggest. It will create huge problems that will not exist if inventory is separated. Here's why:

Suppose a resort has platinum season from weeks 1-20 (much like DSV, ignoring December holiday weeks). Currently, a weeks owner can call as late as Dec 31 and they are guaranteed a week in that season. This will always be the case in a weeks system as long as you call before the season starts so no weeks went unused yet.

Now when you add a points system in the manner you suggest, whether exchangers can call at 12 months in advance or 8 months in advance, all those weeks could get filled up by August. A weeks owner may be locked out of their right to book a week in their season many months before they normally would. If you can't book a week in your season before the start of the season, that likely violates deeded rights.

I'll also respectfully disagree with they can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't violate contracts... In addition to the contract there are state laws that protect consumers. I would also argue that if one bought a timeshare, they should have a reasonable expectation to book any week in their season if they are diligent enough to call at 9am 12 months in advance. Otherwise, one could make the reasonable argument that the season they bought into was represented in an unrealistic (or even fraudulent) manner. If I buy a season that includes summer and fall and can never book any summer week even at exactly 12 months out (or have a 1 in 100 shot of getting one even when calling week after week after week) then I didn't really buy into the summer and fall season, did I?


----------



## SueDonJ

l2trade said:


> We don't know that is the case, do we?  With some points systems, the lock-off and deposit is worth more points than if you deposit the unit whole.



You could be right, I was assuming based on what Asia2000 posted about the values in the AP Program.

How about if I say that depending on where I am in the queue for exchange reservations, it should be more possible (in this new system compared to II's current) for me get a 3BR that has similar value to mine?  In any event, I don't expect at all that I will have to be satisfied with less than the 2BR I'm getting now.


----------



## rsackett

SueDonJ said:


> You could be right, I was assuming based on what Asia2000 posted about the values in the AP Program.
> 
> How about if I say that depending on where I am in the queue for exchange reservations, it should be more possible (in this new system compared to II's current) for me get a 3BR that has similar value to mine?  In any event, I don't expect at all that I will have to be satisfied with less than the 2BR I'm getting now.



I would think you would points left over from the two bedroom trade so you could get a stuido unit.  I would think you would be better off.

Ray


----------



## m61376

Fredm said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> The devil may be in the details. But, some details will never be known.
> No developer is going to lay bare the intricate details of its inventory management.
> 
> It really comes down to whether one believes that Marriott will follow the law. Of course they will. The law protects reservation rights for deeded week owners.
> 
> As for the rest of it, each of us must decide if the benefits/drawbacks of the new (yet unexplained) system will warrant our participation. The issue that matters to most is the cost of participating in whatever is introduced. If the buy-in is free, most will give it a try no matter what it is.  The rest is in the eating. That will likely take a couple of years to evaluate.
> 
> *Those that bought to occupy their home resort should care less about the new program*.


I am one who is hopeful that Marriott will act in good faith and divide the inventory such that every owner (weeks or points) has access to potentially book every week (and arrival date, for that matter), and that Marriott will take an equal proportion of every week into the new system, reflective of the percentage of owners that convert.

That said, this is a very big issue for everyone, including those that bought to occupy their home resort. I characteristically go during higher demand times and nevr have a problem making my reservation. I don't want to get stuck with fringe season weeks because Marriott took the lion's share of the better weeks and left a disproportionate amount of the less requested weeks as left-overs for weeks owners to book.

I am not saying that I think that will happen; I think that the same language that had been discussed before which ensures that resale owners would have equivalent access to reservations as direct purchasers will apply here and that Marriott will be unable to hog the better weeks. But I do think it is a big concern, perhaps even moreso for those who occupy their owned weeks and are less likely to convert.


----------



## scrapngen

tombo said:


> So you have no problem with Marriott taking weeks 22 to 30 and converting one of those prime weeks to points every time a platinum beach owner converts just because it is legal? Marriott's blatant disregard for current owner's loss for the benefit of "points members" is irrelevant? You don't mind that 100% of the converted points inventory will be prime platinum weeks while the majority of people who don't convert will choose from 100% of the non prime in season weeks (18 to 21 and 31 to 34) that marriott left in weeks and the ever decreasing availability of prime in season weeks?
> 
> So Marriott's plan to force owners to either pay to convert or be squeezed out by Marriott's transferance of prime inventory from weeks to points is a good thing? We will have to disagree on this. Marriott is using legal language in the contracts to change the entire Marriott timeshare program just to force owners to pay more or lose inventory access. That is wrong. If they really wanted to roll out a great new program to benefit owners, it would be offered for free!!! It isn't going to be free, it is extortion to make Marriott money on the backs of current owners.
> 
> The fact that other timeshare companies have done it doesn't make it right. I thought that Marriott was more ethical  than most companies, but I was obviously wrong.



My issue with this argument/post is that that you are making a huge assumption (!) of a worst case scenario that is not based on previous Marriott actions but only speculation and knowledge of what OTHER companies have done and then based on this assumption saying Marriott WAS more ethical, but now that is not the case. YOu are also using inflammatory language throughout the post and directly applying it before knowing any facts. In a speculation it is not fair, IMHO, to paint Marriott black when there is no evidence of this behavior.  Nowhere in the rumours has there been the suggestion that Marriott would hold people to their specific listed week on the deed when they have a floating week - that would clearly be a contract violation subject to lawsuits. And just as Marriott made the 50% rule transparent so that this type of speculation was crushed, I suspect there will be some similar action on their part with a points roll-out. 

If we look at Marriott's history of implementing a change that enhances some owners who were willing to buy more which ends up being at the expense of those who only own a single week, they set the 50% rule and it is publicised. Yes, it definitely affects inventory, but across the board, not specific weeks. So, once again, these allegations are purely speculative, and therefore saying Marriott IS unethical and has "..blatant disregard for current owner's loss for the benefit of "points members..." is ranting.  Yes, TUGGERs and others figured out how to "play" the new system to swoop in and get the power weeks by linking reservations in an unintended way, but still at 12 months 50% of the available week are there to reserve. I believe and hope that in this new system, it would be managed in a similar way. NOT these allegations that ALL prime weeks will be siphoned into points, leaving the one and even multiple week owner who does not choose to convert no chance in Hades of that precious summer/ski week. 

When speculation suddenly turns into fact and then the company is vilified, I take exception to the posting. As long as it stays in the speculative realm, or addresses possibilities, I enjoy this thread. This is my opinion.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> No, I don't believe the system cannot be integrated in the way you suggest. It will create huge problems that will not exist if inventory is separated. Here's why:
> 
> Suppose a resort has platinum season from weeks 1-20 (much like DSV, ignoring December holiday weeks). Currently, a weeks owner can call as late as Dec 31 and they are guaranteed a week in that season. This will always be the case in a weeks system as long as you call before the season starts so no weeks went unused yet.
> 
> Now when you add a points system in the manner you suggest, whether exchangers can call at 12 months in advance or 8 months in advance, all those weeks could get filled up by August. A weeks owner may be locked out of their right to book a week in their season many months before they normally would. If you can't book a week in your season before the start of the season, that likely violates deeded rights.



Do your resort's docs not contain something similar to this from SurfWatch's?


> USE OF UNRESERVED USE PERIODS
> ... the Declarant may reserve any unreserved Use Period beginning on and after seventy-four (74) days prior to the first day of the Use Period and thereafter use such Use Period(s).  If the Association or the Declarant makes use of such Use Period, the Use Period may not be available for reservation or use by Owners or any other persons deriving their use rights through Owners other than the Association or Declarant.



If they do, it's true that any owner could call 12/31 before the season opens and a week commencing 75 days or more hence may be available (if other owners have not booked them,) but any of the weeks commencing within 74 days could conceivably be booked at that point by other owners as well as Marriott.  You say "ignoring holiday weeks" but the fact that December holiday weeks are the same season designation means that the owner who wanted one of the weeks 1-20 may have to accept an open December week or forfeit his year's usage if all the 1-20 weeks are gone.



DanCali said:


> I'll also respectfully disagree with they can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't violate contracts... In addition to the contract there are state laws that protect consumers. I would also argue that if one bought a timeshare, they should have a reasonable expectation to book any week in their season if they are diligent enough to call at 9am 12 months in advance. Otherwise, one could make the reasonable argument that the season they bought into was represented in an unrealistic (or even fraudulent) manner. If I buy a season that includes summer and fall and can never book any summer week even at exactly 12 months out (or have a 1 in 100 shot of getting one even when calling week after week after week) then I didn't really buy into the summer and fall season, did I?



I'm assuming that Marriott follows state laws when they write their contracts and do business in the states.   

And I would argue that the consumer's expectations should only reach as far as what the contracts stipulate.  In the current system, the guarantee is that an owner can reserve a specific unit type within a designated season, subject to availability and the defined Reservation Procedures.  There is no guarantee that a call at 9AM using the 12/13 month rule will definitely get you the reservation you want now, is there?  No.  There are simply weeks in which demand far exceeds inventory.

I'm not understanding, though, how what I proposed would prevent an owner from getting a week in his season (not a specific week) if he calls consistently at 9AM on the days the reservation windows open.  Eventually he will get a confirmed reservation because at 12/13 months he is only competing with other owners.  (Based on that survey, exchange windows open later than owners' windows.)


----------



## scrapngen

DanCali said:


> No, I don't believe the system cannot be integrated in the way you suggest. It will create huge problems that will not exist if inventory is separated. Here's why:
> 
> Suppose a resort has platinum season from weeks 1-20 (much like DSV, ignoring December holiday weeks). Currently, a weeks owner can call as late as Dec 31 and they are guaranteed a week in that season. This will always be the case in a weeks system as long as you call before the season starts so no weeks went unused yet.
> 
> Now when you add a points system in the manner you suggest, whether exchangers can call at 12 months in advance or 8 months in advance, all those weeks could get filled up by August. A weeks owner may be locked out of their right to book a week in their season many months before they normally would. If you can't book a week in your season before the start of the season, that likely violates deeded rights.
> 
> I'll also respectfully disagree with they can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't violate contracts... In addition to the contract there are state laws that protect consumers. I would also argue that if one bought a timeshare, they should have a reasonable expectation to book any week in their season if they are diligent enough to call at 9am 12 months in advance. Otherwise, one could make the reasonable argument that the season they bought into was represented in an unrealistic (or even fraudulent) manner. If I buy a season that includes summer and fall and can never book any summer week even at exactly 12 months out (or have a 1 in 100 shot of getting one even when calling week after week after week) then I didn't really buy into the summer and fall season, did I?



This is very well put!!


----------



## l2trade

Marriott's new point system will look more like Diamond than DVC.  After June 16th, Marriott will cease selling specific resort deeds, but instead will sell points based on a multi-property trust.  You will no longer be able to purchase a specific resort.  EOY weeks are a DOA concept under the new system.  This trust will increase in size as owners convert weeks to points.  Owners who purchase prior to conversion will have extra benefits that are grandfathered in to entice them to make the switch.  For example, only owners prior to the switch will be guaranteed a specific resort during a specific season during a specific reservation window.

If you want the benefits of the old along with an invitation to the new, tomorrow is the time to buy (avoid states with less than 7 day rescission period:  http://rcivip.com/2010/timeshare-rescission-period-in-us/ ).  Next, study the details which I am told will be available this Sunday.  Then, rescind immediately if you are not happy.  I am not going to do this, as I detest developer controlled point systems (w/ the exception of DVC).  Marriott will be watching the rollout and owner reaction closely.  It would be a very strong message if many sales today & tomorrow rescind the moment the new system rolls out.


----------



## SueDonJ

l2trade said:


> Marriott's new point system will look more like Diamond than DVC.  After June 16th, Marriott will cease selling specific resort deeds, but instead will sell points based on a multi-property trust.  You will no longer be able to purchase a specific resort.  EOY weeks are a DOA concept under the new system.  This trust will increase in size as owners convert weeks to points.  Owners who purchase prior to conversion will have extra benefits that are grandfathered in to entice them to make the switch.  For example, only owners prior to the switch will be guaranteed a specific resort during a specific season during a specific reservation window.



Hmmmm.  Can you give some more details about Diamond so we can hack that system to death?

You know how that survey talked about a possible priority with a home resort or a group of resorts?  I'm thinking that a trust encompassing all of Marriott's resorts could be one big*** trust to unwieldy to manage, but several trusts broken down into regions or similar-amenity properties or similar-age properties might be something to think about ....



l2trade said:


> If you want the benefits of the old along with an invitation to the new, tomorrow is the time to buy (avoid states with less than 7 day rescission period:  http://rcivip.com/2010/timeshare-rescission-period-in-us/ ).  Next, study the details which I am told will be available this Sunday.  Then, rescind immediately if you are not happy.  I am not going to do this, as I detest developer controlled point systems (w/ the exception of DVC).  Marriott will be watching the rollout and owner reaction closely.  It would be a very strong message if many sales today & tomorrow rescind the moment the new system rolls out.



The thing is, I'm not sure that I would be comfortable relying on the reported June 20th date for roll-out.  Unless Marriott sent us all an email notification saying, "June 20th is THE day!  Get Ready!" then I would be worried about another delay affecting the purchase/rescission.  But then again, I haven't felt comfortable about buying ANY timeshare product ever since the economy tanked.


----------



## l2trade

The legacy reservation benefits for owners who convert will be similar to those who do not.  It does not sound like the new reservation system will segregate week owners who do not convert from owners who do, anymore than the existing pool of units for that season does.  So, point owners may or may not account for a disproportionate share of the most desired weeks within the shared season.  To what extent the best reservation weeks in a given season end up pulled into the point system is TBD.  I doubt we will know that anytime soon, if ever, beyond individual observations.  All we will know are the new system rules.  We will be left to speculate about the latter.

New retail purchasers will not have the same resort, season guarantees.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Do your resort's docs not contain something similar to this from SurfWatch's?
> 
> 
> If they do, it's true that any owner could call 12/31 before the season opens and a week commencing 75 days or more hence may be available (if other owners have not booked them,) but any of the weeks commencing within 74 days could conceivably be booked at that point by other owners as well as Marriott.  You say "ignoring holiday weeks" but the fact that December holiday weeks are the same season designation means that the owner who wanted one of the weeks 1-20 may have to accept an open December week or forfeit his year's usage if all the 1-20 weeks are gone.
> 
> I'm not understanding, though, how what I proposed would prevent an owner from getting a week in his season (not a specific week) if he calls consistently at 9AM on the days the reservation windows open.  Eventually he will get a confirmed reservation because at 12/13 months he is only competing with other owners.  (Based on that survey, exchange windows open later than owners' windows.)



I think you focused on the wrong things in my post. I said "a resort", no necessarily DSV. Ignoring the holiday weeks was for illustration purposes. We could equally talk about a Hawaii 1-50 Platinum float or a NCV Platinum 23-51.

I'll take the 75 days clause you found and re-argue that, using the Hawaii 1-50 float example, a weeks owner is guaranteed to get a week as long as they call by mid October. In fact, that clause you quote regarding "USE OF UNRESERVED PERIOD" pretty much guarantees that indirectly because there is no other reason for all weeks to go away. Now you add a bunch of non-Hawaii owners trying to get Hawaii weeks at 12 months out and all weeks may be gone before Oct 15... 

Again, the issue if not whether it's Hawaii, DSV, NCV or what the weeks are... it's the fact that pooling the inventory can cause deeded week owners to get locked out at times they shouldn't be.

You are right, calling at 12 months out a weeks owner would not get locked out. But not all owners want or have to call at 12 months out. Currently, as long as they call 1 day (or 75 days, like you point out...) before the season starts they can get a week in the season. Some may have bought being happy with this arrangement. What you propose can change that.



SueDonJ said:


> I'm assuming that Marriott follows state laws when they write their contracts and do business in the states.
> 
> And I would argue that the consumer's expectations should only reach as far as what the contracts stipulate.  In the current system, the guarantee is that an owner can reserve a specific unit type within a designated season, subject to availability and the defined Reservation Procedures.  There is no guarantee that a call at 9AM using the 12/13 month rule will definitely get you the reservation you want now, is there?  No.  There are simply weeks in which demand far exceeds inventory.



I never said calling at 12 months out will definitely get the reservation. But if I own at a resort and an willing to settle for any summer week, and I call at 12 months out at 9am (when allegedly 50% of inventory is available) week after week after week 10 weeks in a row all summer is it reasonable to expect to get one of the summer weeks? maybe once every 2 years? I would think so... if not then the season is not what it's advertised to be...


----------



## m61376

l2trade said:


> Marriott's new point system will look more like Diamond than DVC.  After June 16th, Marriott will cease selling specific resort deeds, but instead will sell points based on a multi-property trust.  You will no longer be able to purchase a specific resort.  EOY weeks are a DOA concept under the new system.  This trust will increase in size as owners convert weeks to points.  Owners who purchase prior to conversion will have extra benefits that are grandfathered in to entice them to make the switch.  For example, only owners prior to the switch will be guaranteed a specific resort during a specific season during a specific reservation window.
> 
> If you want the benefits of the old along with an invitation to the new, tomorrow is the time to buy (avoid states with less than 7 day rescission period:  http://rcivip.com/2010/timeshare-rescission-period-in-us/ ).  Next, study the details which I am told will be available this Sunday.  Then, rescind immediately if you are not happy.  I am not going to do this, as I detest developer controlled point systems (w/ the exception of DVC).  Marriott will be watching the rollout and owner reaction closely.  It would be a very strong message if many sales today & tomorrow rescind the moment the new system rolls out.



Is this an assumption or based on an official statement or leak?


----------



## tombo

scrapngen said:


> My issue with this argument/post is that that you are making a huge assumption (!) of a worst case scenario that is not based on previous Marriott actions but only speculation and knowledge of what OTHER companies have done and then based on this assumption saying Marriott WAS more ethical, but now that is not the case. YOu are also using inflammatory language throughout the post and directly applying it before knowing any facts. In a speculation it is not fair, IMHO, to paint Marriott black when there is no evidence of this behavior.  Nowhere in the rumours has there been the suggestion that Marriott would hold people to their specific listed week on the deed when they have a floating week - that would clearly be a contract violation subject to lawsuits. And just as Marriott made the 50% rule transparent so that this type of speculation was crushed, I suspect there will be some similar action on their part with a points roll-out.
> 
> If we look at Marriott's history of implementing a change that enhances some owners who were willing to buy more which ends up being at the expense of those who only own a single week, they set the 50% rule and it is publicised. Yes, it definitely affects inventory, but across the board, not specific weeks. So, once again, these allegations are purely speculative, and therefore saying Marriott IS unethical and has "..blatant disregard for current owner's loss for the benefit of "points members..." is ranting.  Yes, TUGGERs and others figured out how to "play" the new system to swoop in and get the power weeks by linking reservations in an unintended way, but still at 12 months 50% of the available week are there to reserve. I believe and hope that in this new system, it would be managed in a similar way. NOT these allegations that ALL prime weeks will be siphoned into points, leaving the one and even multiple week owner who does not choose to convert no chance in Hades of that precious summer/ski week.
> 
> When speculation suddenly turns into fact and then the company is vilified, I take exception to the posting. As long as it stays in the speculative realm, or addresses possibilities, I enjoy this thread. This is my opinion.



You are not hurting my feelings. I have on numerous occasions said that I could be wrong and Marriott might treat owners better than I expect, but I doubt it. 

A lot of what I post is from personal experience at resorts that converted to points to fleece owners. Yes I know that happened at other resorts and I know that I can't be sure what exactly Marriott will do, but unless they offer points conversions for free they are offering points to make a profit, not to enhance customer's ownership. They are also creating two classes of Marriott owners and totally doing away with weeks sales. Do you expect Ford to continue to worry about Mercury vehicles longevity, Mercury dealerships, and customer's satisfaction with the mercury vehicle lines in upcoming years after they totally do away with the Mercury division? Nope that is history and their focus will be on Fords and Ford products. After Marriott rolls out points, no more weeks will be sold, so the weeks program will be the red headed step child of marriott resorts. marriott will focus solely on points, points conversions, points sales, and points owners.

Now to assumptions and conjecture. What we have heard is that supposedly EOY weeks are done never to be sold again and that EOY weeks will fare poorly with the new points system system. Where are these rumrs coming from? Marriott employess, that's where.  I have been told numerous times that Marriott will devalue my resale when the new system is launched, also by Marriott employees. If it is not true then Marriott needs to fire or retrain numerous employees who have all said the same thing. This will be bad for me as an owner if true, and who do I have to listen to but TUG and Marriott employees?. I have been told that unless I swapped to points that I will be left behind, have access to ever diminshing inventory, and face other hardships if i retain ownership in my deeded resale week. All of this too comes from Marriott employees and their managers. A lot of what I fear about the new points program has been told to me by people who WORK FOR MARRIOTT!

They say that a company is only as good as it's employees, so either Marriott hires honest employees who are truthfull when they tell me that the new program will be bad for me (which means that marriott is going to screw us), or else the employees are pathological liars which means that marriott is a company who hires, retains, and promotes untruthful employees. Either way you want to look at it this is not going to be good for deeded owners with resale weeks who won't convert to points. Of course if all are lying then we might not get screwed as was advertised by Marriott employees, and we are instead fortunate enough to own timeshares in a company who proudly and openly employs a lying staff who spreads lies and rumors and untruths to owners. Which one of these 2 scenarios makes Marriott an ethical, trustworthy company? 

Why don't I trust Marriott to do what is right?  Because of past experiences at other resorts and because Marriott employees have repeatedly told me that Marriott is going to penalize resale owners and weeks owners who don't convert to points!


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> I think you focused on the wrong things in my post. I said "a resort", no necessarily DSV. Ignoring the holiday weeks was for illustration purposes. We could equally talk about a Hawaii 1-50 Platinum float or a NCV Platinum 23-51.
> 
> I'll take the 75 days clause you found and re-argue that, using the Hawaii 1-50 float example, a weeks owner is guaranteed to get a week as long as they call by mid October. In fact, that clause you quote regarding "USE OF UNRESERVED PERIOD" pretty much guarantees that indirectly because there is no other reason for all weeks to go away. Now you add a bunch of non-Hawaii owners trying to get Hawaii weeks at 12 months out and all weeks may be gone before Oct 15...
> 
> Again, the issue if not whether it's Hawaii, DSV, NCV or what the weeks are... it's the fact that pooling the inventory can cause deeded week owners to get locked out at times they shouldn't be.
> 
> You are right, calling at 12 months out a weeks owner would not get locked out. But not all owners want or have to call at 12 months out. Currently, as long as they call 1 day (or 75 days, like you point out...) before the season starts they can get a week in the season. Some may have bought being happy with this arrangement. What you propose can change that.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said calling at 12 months out will definitely get the reservation. But if I own at a resort and an willing to settle for any summer week, and I call at 12 months out at 9am (when allegedly 50% of inventory is available) week after week after week 10 weeks in a row all summer is it reasonable to expect to get one of the summer weeks? maybe once every 2 years? I would think so... if not then the season is not what it's advertised to be...



Maybe we're both saying similar things but getting confused in the details?  I understand that the intent of the timeshare purchase needs to be protected - an owner must be able to actually reserve any time period within his purchased season on a reasonable basis.  IOW, any weeks should be available to him on a rotating basis, whether that happens naturally through the reservation process with no help from Marriott or with Marriott's help by exercising their "lottery"  or "priority lists" provisions contained in the contracts.  I'm just not seeing how not keeping the points inventory separate from weeks (except insofar as the percentages of each correlate to what's been sold) and making all home resort reservations available first-come-first-served defeats that intent.

Have you considered that in either the current system or the points system, we are still talking about the same number of owners with a home resort priority trying to reserve the same number of days within their season?  I think where we may be getting crossed up is in when exchangers are able to make reservations, and I'm assuming based on that survey that they will have a later window than owners.

Now when we start getting in to systems such as Diamond with no home resort priority, I am totally clueless how Marriott could manage things.  But that doesn't mean they have carte blanche to do whatever they want, it just means somebody needs to tell us how and why Diamond works the way it does.


----------



## l2trade

SueDonJ said:


> Hmmmm.  Can you give some more details about Diamond so we can hack that system to death?


Wow!  That could be a whole thread in itself.  Let's oversimplify to say that the Trust holds all the deeds which are assigned fixed point values from many resorts.  Owners buy points from that bundle.  Non-trust deeds (including non-Diamond timeshares) can also be converted to fixed Diamond point values.  It is a big black box that gives the developer super powerful control.  IMHO, resale value sucks and I would never buy it, as the product is handicapped for external trades without the full Diamond Resort system.  Please, hack away!  



SueDonJ said:


> You know how that survey talked about a possible priority with a home resort or a group of resorts?  I'm thinking that a trust encompassing all of Marriott's resorts could be one big*** trust to unwieldy to manage, but several trusts broken down into regions or similar-amenity properties or similar-age properties might be something to think about ....


Breaking down resorts into smaller trusts, doesn't change the fact that Marriott must manage all of them.  When you go the trust route, I expect bigger and more diverse will be seen as better.  I am not an expert in this area, but these things can get quite complex, with trusts inside trusts, right?  Reservation rules need not be directly related to the complexity of the underlying trust(s).



SueDonJ said:


> The thing is, I'm not sure that I would be comfortable relying on the reported June 20th date for roll-out.  Unless Marriott sent us all an email notification saying, "June 20th is THE day!  Get Ready!" then I would be worried about another delay affecting the purchase/rescission.  But then again, I haven't felt comfortable about buying ANY timeshare product ever since the economy tanked.



June 20th is THE day!  Of this, I've been promised.  If something unforeseen happens and suddenly it ain't, then buyer beware!  Rescind, rescind, rescind!


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> Maybe we're both saying similar things but getting confused in the details?  I understand that the intent of the timeshare purchase needs to be protected - an owner must be able to actually reserve any time period within his purchased season on a reasonable basis.  IOW, any weeks should be available to him on a rotating basis, whether that happens naturally through the reservation process with no help from Marriott or with Marriott's help by exercising their "lottery"  or "priority lists" provisions contained in the contracts.  I'm just not seeing how not keeping the points inventory separate from weeks (except insofar as the percentages of each correlate to what's been sold) and making all home resort reservations available first-come-first-served defeats that intent.
> 
> Have you considered that in either the current system or the points system, we are still talking about the same number of owners with a home resort priority trying to reserve the same number of days within their season?  I think where we may be getting crossed up is in when exchangers are able to make reservations, and I'm assuming based on that survey that they will have a later window than owners.
> 
> Now when we start getting in to systems such as Diamond with no home resort priority, I am totally clueless how Marriott could manage things.  But that doesn't mean they have carte blanche to do whatever they want, it just means somebody needs to tell us how and why Diamond works the way it does.



The bottom line is that the only way for things to be fair is for the percentage of reservations for each week to reflect the percentage of points versus week ownership; thus, for example, if a resort has 3 days for check-ins, and, for argument's sake, 240 villas, and if 50% convert to points, then 40 villas each day should be reserved for point reservations, regardless of whether that is for points owners using home resort priority or exchanging in, and 40 villas each day should be reserved for weeks owners booking in their own season according to the rules currently in effect.


----------



## l2trade

m61376 said:


> Is this an assumption or based on an official statement or leak?



Of course, this is not from an official statement, nor is it pure assumption.
I've done some legwork (and phone work) the past few weeks.  While Marriott certainly does not want to equate their new system with Diamond, that is the best example I can come up with right now based on how the program has been described to me thus far.

By now, most salespeople know more about the new system than they did a week ago.  They know to varying details depending on their need to know, and much more importantly, their ability to comprehend.  While some questions to them yield elusive answers, it is rather easy to connect all the dots during long conversations.  It is human nature to want answers.  It is salesperson nature to do or say whatever necessary to close the deal today.  I am sure Marriott knows that.  That is why they kept the bulk of their sales staff (and, in turn, all of us) in the dark for so long.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> Maybe we're both saying similar things but getting confused in the details?  I understand that the intent of the timeshare purchase needs to be protected - an owner must be able to actually reserve any time period within his purchased season on a reasonable basis.  IOW, any weeks should be available to him on a rotating basis, whether that happens naturally through the reservation process with no help from Marriott or with Marriott's help by exercising their "lottery"  or "priority lists" provisions contained in the contracts.  I'm just not seeing how not keeping the points inventory separate from weeks (except insofar as the percentages of each correlate to what's been sold) and making all home resort reservations available first-come-first-served defeats that intent.



My point was that if exchangers have access to resorts, whether at 8 months or 12 months, owners can get locked out of their season much earlier than they could now. Even if all they care about is getting a random week. That's simply due to the fact that you give outsiders access to those weeks so there could be more requests for all the weeks in a season than there are owners.


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## PerryM

*Hardball or softball - it does make a difference...*



m61376 said:


> The bottom line is that the only way for things to be *fair* is for the percentage of reservations for each week to reflect the percentage of points versus week ownership; thus, for example, if a resort has 3 days for check-ins, and, for argument's sake, 240 villas, and if 50% convert to points, then 40 villas each day should be reserved for point reservations, regardless of whether that is for points owners using home resort priority or exchanging in, and 40 villas each day should be reserved for weeks owners booking in their own season according to the rules currently in effect.



Show me the word "Fair" in any deed or CCR?

Marriott will play the game according to the rules and there is NOTHING wrong with that.

That's part of the decision we must make when there is NO track record -  Marriott will play by the rules so what would a lawyer advise Marriott to do in every situation we must guess Marriott's response.

You all know the answer - they will play hardball and not softball.


----------



## DanCali

l2trade said:


> Of course, this is not from an official statement, nor is it pure assumption.
> I've done some legwork (and phone work) the past few weeks.  While Marriott certainly does not want to equate their new system with Diamond, that is the best example I can come up with right now based on how the program has been described to me thus far.



Are we talking about this highly sought after product?


----------



## tombo

m61376 said:


> The bottom line is that the only way for things to be fair is for the percentage of reservations for each week to reflect the percentage of points versus week ownership; thus, for example, if a resort has 3 days for check-ins, and, for argument's sake, 240 villas, and if 50% convert to points, then 40 villas each day should be reserved for point reservations, regardless of whether that is for points owners using home resort priority or exchanging in, and 40 villas each day should be reserved for weeks owners booking in their own season according to the rules currently in effect.



Agreed. Now find anywhere in any Marriott document that says anything other than you have access to a specific unit type during a designated season based on availability. Furthermore other than through court orders is there any documentation requiring Marriott to detail where inventory went? Only marriott will know for sure how they allocated inventory between the points and the weeks and we can't require them to provide us with that information.

If there are 100 villas at a resort and their platinum weeks float weeks 18 to 38, with weeks  20 to 30 being the prime hard to get weeks, then one half of the 2000 weeks are prime. Currently half of the 2000 platinum weeks owners will get a prime week each year. Here comes points. If 750 of the 2000 platinum owners convert to points, and if all of the 750 converted weeks placed into points inventory by Marriott are the most sought after prime weeks 20 to 30, then there will be 250 prime weeks left for the 1250 weeks owners who did not convert to points, and there will be 750 prime weeks available for the 750 owners who converted to points. Every point owner will be able to reserve a prime week while only 250 of 1250 deeded weeks owners will be successful in reserving a prime week, but ALL of the platinum owners will have access to weeks in their designated Platinum  season subject to availability whether they swap to points or not. Marriott fulfilled their contract while making sure points members got prime inventory and weeks owners got what was left.

Before points (in the above example) 50% of the platinum deeded weeks owners would get a prime week each year. After marriott rolls out points, 100% of the points conversion members will get prime weeks while only 20% of the owners who didn't convert will be successful at snagging a prime week. This is how much of a difference Marriott's allocation of weeks between Points inventory and weeks inventory can make.


----------



## PerryM

rsackett said:


> *But for all those upgrades you got someone had to be downgraded, or am I missing something?*  I have on occation been upgraded to a nicer resort, but generaly took a smaller unit.  It seems in my mind that like for like (whatever that means) would be a more fair system, no?
> 
> ray



Not at all - that's a zero sum game and that's not what an exchange company runs.

I just reviewed my II account and EVERY exchange going back to 2000 is an "upgrade" - everyone of them.

There were many times I exchanged 4,000 WM credits to stay at Beachplace Towers in a 2BR at 59-days in II.  I counted 4 of them; my son and his frat brothers had a great time.  My MF for the WM credits was $200 + exchange fee and the MF for BPT was always around $1,000.

That was an upgrade and nobody wanted that exchange so I got it; and it was a hell of an upgrade.

This is but one example of exchanges just sitting out there and folks decided to pass the reservation by.

I remember reading that at least 15% of ALL timeshare units go unused in a year - they never even made it into an exchange system.

I see no reason to believe for a second that II is a 100% zero-sum game where all the upgrades I got were matched with an equal downgrades.

To prove that II or RCI or the new Marriott exchange system is a zero-sum game is way too subjective and thus can't stand on any logic or proof.


----------



## BocaBum99

PerryM said:


> Not at all - that's a zero sum game and that's not what an exchange company runs.
> 
> I just reviewed my II account and EVERY exchange going back to 2000 is an "upgrade" - everyone of them.
> 
> There were many times I exchanged 4,000 WM credits to stay at Beachplace Towers in a 2BR at 59-days in II.  I counted 4 of them; my son and his frat brothers had a great time.  My MF for the WM credits was $200 + exchange fee and the MF for BPT was always around $1,000.
> 
> That was an upgrade and nobody wanted that exchange so I got it; and it was a hell of an upgrade.
> 
> This is but one example of exchanges just sitting out there and folks decided to pass the reservation by.
> 
> I remember reading that at least 15% of ALL timeshare units go unused in a year - they never even made it into an exchange system.
> 
> I see no reason to believe for a second that II is a 100% zero-sum game where all the upgrades I got were matched with an equal downgrades.
> 
> To prove that II or RCI or the new Marriott exchange system is a zero-sum game is way too subjective and thus can't stand on any logic or proof.



It is not a zero sum game for the exchange companies.  The way all successful exchange companies work is that FREE inventory is injected into the system by a resort developer or management company.  That creates exchange cycle.  Then, units are exchanged until units expire.  Many of those units are rented as sell off inventory by the exchange company or offered as trade ups for dog weeks.  That is how the exchange company business model works.

What RCI is trying to do is force equal or less trades thereby giving all trade up opportunities to themselves for rentals.  That explains the drop in trading power over time.  You can still get trade ups.  But, RCI is siphoning off a lot of that value for themselves.  That is why knowledgeable exchangers are ticked off at them.


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## l2trade

m61376 said:


> The bottom line is that the only way for things to be fair is for the percentage of reservations for each week to reflect the percentage of points versus week ownership; thus, for example, if a resort has 3 days for check-ins, and, for argument's sake, 240 villas, and if 50% convert to points, then 40 villas each day should be reserved for point reservations, regardless of whether that is for points owners using home resort priority or exchanging in, and 40 villas each day should be reserved for weeks owners booking in their own season according to the rules currently in effect.



I try to avoid using the word 'fair' for any type of reservation system change that developers implement unilaterally and undemocratically and inconsistently which divides an existing owner base, since I consider such action to be inherently 'unfair'...

The bottom line is that those 240 villas will all be given implicit point values, whether owners convert or not.  When a weeks owner makes a reservation, they are in essence spending their weeks point values in full.  Only fixed owners are guaranteed the granularity of a specific week during their reservation window.  Seasonal owners are guaranteed a fight for the best weeks out of the seasonal pool.  To the extent that one owner is helped or hindered in that 12 month (13 month  ), first come - first serve seasonal reservation system fight as a result of their accepting or declining membership to the new points program.... well, I would consider that to be 'unfair' when it is allowed to happen without a majority vote.

I would be upset if I called out 12 months in advance and could not secure a seasonal reservation that was still available to the other pool of seasonal owners, be it points or weeks.  And, I would be extra upset if Marriott cut into that fight and secured a disproportionate share of units on behalf of one type system (points or weeks) over another.  I'm unable to see 'fair' in this change.  Time will tell how this all plays out.


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## dougp26364

l2trade said:


> ....I would be upset if I called out 12 months in advance and could not secure a seasonal reservation that was still available to the other pool of seasonal owners, be it points or weeks.  And, I would be extra upset if Marriott cut into that fight and secured a disproportionate share of units on behalf of one type system (points or weeks) over another.  I'm unable to see 'fair' in this change.  Time will tell how this all plays out.



There are owners upset about this issue right now and Marriott doesn't have a points program. The problem with weeks is, when you want to trade, owners believe they must have one of the highest value weeks in order to get whatever they might want in exchange. Thus, some of the popular weeks get snapped up for exchange. It doesn't matter now that Marriott doesn't have a points program. Those weeks can be impossible to get unless you time your call for the precise moment to be ahead of all the other owners. Just ask anyone wanting a summer week at NCV. I've never been able to reserve memorial week or Thanksgiving week at Ocean Pointe for the same reasons. 

What a points system does is eliminate that problem. Points are points. They have a set value. No more owners reserving the most popular week just for trade power. 

A more legitimate question might be, what happens to points owners when weeks owners flood the reservation center all trying to get the highest demand week? Will Marriott hold out a specific number of those floating weeks just so that points members can have a shot at reserving them? My bet is no they won't. Initially, points members are just as likely to find themselves in the same position you believe weeks members.


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## l2trade

DanCali said:


> Are we talking about this highly sought after product?



Yes, we are!  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.  I think $1 is too high a price to pay for Diamond Resorts resale.  But, as always, the marketplace will eventually sort it all out.   

I plan to NEVER buy one of the new, post-Jun 20th, Marriott timeshare products resale.  I know all I need to know already.  It is not for me, but I respect that others may like it.  Call me old school, if you must.  As it relates to timeshares, I don't consider that an insult.  I much prefer the guarantee of a specific fixed week at a fixed resort and the separation of powers in exchanging through a 3rd party.  I will keep an open mind about buying one of the older 'weeks-only', Marriott resort deeds someday, preferably fixed platinum plus or holiday.

Marriott can never be like Disney and this isn't the first time they've tried.  Marriott's Great America, anyone?


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I believe ALL Marriott owners will have reduced exchange value - ALL.
> 
> In my case there isn't any question - I'm not going to go to Maui anymore either joining Marriott or staying with II.
> 
> I can't think of a case where ANY Marriott owner will do better than what they have now.
> 
> Sure you can combine Points from a few Gold weeks and get Platinum but kiss ANY existing "upgrades" bye bye.
> 
> This is exactly what you would expect with a sales/exchange system - Marriott "lost" lots of money for 20+ years by allowing owners to exchange upwards - that should have been their upgrades to sell.
> 
> So starting on 6/21/10 your ability to upgrade an exchange now belongs to Marriott.
> 
> What about II?
> 
> I'm assuming the 24-day rule will expire soon and my Gold week will exchange in II for a similar Gold unit.  II will have the opportunity to level the playing field too.
> 
> This is going to be a great opportunity for Marriott and II to level the playing field and pocket all those lost upgrades they have been eying for 20 years.



I believe all owners will have a fair (there's that word again) value to their ownership - ALL. I believe Marriott owners, for the first time, will actually be able to see what their week is worth. Salesmen won't be able to hide the REAL value of the bronze HHI week when the prospect can't afford the Platinum week. Sales will become.....gasp.....a little more honest.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> My point was that if exchangers have access to resorts, whether at 8 months or 12 months, owners can get locked out of their season much earlier than they could now. Even if all they care about is getting a random week. That's simply due to the fact that you give outsiders access to those weeks so there could be more requests for all the weeks in a season than there are owners.



What if there is the same stipulation in the points contracts as is in the weeks contracts, that in order to exchange an owner must first secure a home resort reservation?  In the current system that reserved week is the one deposited to II, which creates the mess we have now where the high-demand holiday weeks are gobbled up by owners looking to maximize their exchange values.  This system will continue with weeks owners even after the points system is implemented.

But within the points system, it could be set up so that when an owner makes a reservation with the intent to exchange, the owner's equivalent point value is transferred to the owner's account and ultimately to the resort to which he's exchanged.  At the same time, rather than Marriott making that deposited or any other specific week available for exchanging, any non-home resort owner who wants to exchange in can do so on an equivalent point basis subject to availability and the reservation procedures.

Whether or not inventory for home resort usage is depleted by weeks or points owners looking to exchange doesn't really matter, does it?  The intervals remain fixed according to unit type/view/# of days/weeks in a season, and the number of folks who can stay at a resort at any one time is finite.  But with points, exchange windows can open later than occupancy ones, and the possibility exists that MORE of the highest-demand weeks could be occupied by owners of either weeks or points because only weeks owners will be able to deposit them for exchanges.

As well, in the current system you as an owner have no idea when you're shut out of a desired reservation if that week was taken by an owner who will occupy it or exchange it.  Theoretically, currently at 12 months out 100% of any week could be completely gone, reserved by owners who intend to exchange.  At least within the points system with a home resort priority, when the reservation window opens you won't be competing with every other owner because points owners who want to exchange will have a later reservation window.


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## l2trade

dougp26364 said:


> ... Initially, points members are just as likely to find themselves in the same position you believe weeks members.



I am not biased or predicting winners yet.  I think everyone loses when a developer divides a pool of owner interests against each other.  I think both a converted points owner and a weeks owner may want to make a home resort reservation in their shared season for the same reasons - to stay or rent it out for a profit.  Why should one find themselves competing in a different pool than the other for it?

Anyway, this hypothetical scenario of different pools is not the case in the new program rolling out.


----------



## BocaBum99

dougp26364 said:


> I believe all owners will have a fair (there's that word again) value to their ownership - ALL. I believe Marriott owners, for the first time, will actually be able to see what their week is worth. Salesmen won't be able to hide the REAL value of the bronze HHI week when the prospect can't afford the Platinum week. Sales will become.....gasp.....a little more honest.



No it won't.  You are making the fundamentally flawed assumption that the average owner knows basic facts about their ownership vs. others.  And that they demonstrate any curiosity whatsoever as to whether or not their deal is better than the next.  In general, they don't.   It's only a small percentage of people who will even look closely at the situation.  Many of them are here on TUG.  

On the other hand, the new program (whatever it turns out to be) gives the Marriott sales rep many more ways to confuse the owner therefore forcing them to "trust" the sales rep that they are leading them in the right direction.


----------



## DanCali

SueDonJ said:


> What if there is the same stipulation in the points contracts as is in the weeks contracts, that in order to exchange an owner must first secure a home resort reservation?  In the current system that reserved week is the one deposited to II, which creates the mess we have now where the high-demand holiday weeks are gobbled up by owners looking to maximize their exchange values.  This system will continue with weeks owners even after the points system is implemented.
> 
> But within the points system, it could be set up so that when an owner makes a reservation with the intent to exchange, the owner's equivalent point value is transferred to the owner's account and ultimately to the resort to which he's exchanged.  At the same time, rather than Marriott making that deposited or any other specific week available for exchanging, any non-home resort owner who wants to exchange in can do so on an equivalent point basis subject to availability and the reservation procedures.
> 
> Whether or not inventory for home resort usage is depleted by weeks or points owners looking to exchange doesn't really matter, does it?  The intervals remain fixed according to unit type/view/# of days/weeks in a season, and the number of folks who can stay at a resort at any one time is finite.  But with points, exchange windows can open later than occupancy ones, and the possibility exists that MORE of the highest-demand weeks could be occupied by owners of either weeks or points because only weeks owners will be able to deposit them for exchanges.
> 
> As well, in the current system you as an owner have no idea when you're shut out of a desired reservation if that week was taken by an owner who will occupy it or exchange it.  Theoretically, currently at 12 months out 100% of any week could be completely gone, reserved by owners who intend to exchange.  At least within the points system with a home resort priority, when the reservation window opens you won't be competing with every other owner because points owners who want to exchange will have a later reservation window.




Most signs so far point to no home resort priority, which would make the situation for points owners bad.

Second, yes it is inefficient that high demand weeks are picked up for trading power, but at least you know you can get those weeks if you play the same game by going through II with your own high demand week. In a points system, those reservations rarely come back into the system once they are gone. If there is home resort priority and you want to exchange you'd have a higher shot getting high demand weeks via II than waiting for a cancellation from a points owner.


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## PerryM

*Doggy bags..*



SueDonJ said:


> What if there is the same stipulation in the points contracts as is in the weeks contracts, that in order to exchange an owner must first secure a home resort reservation?  *In the current system that reserved week is the one deposited to II, which creates the mess we have now where the high-demand holiday weeks are gobbled up by owners looking to maximize their exchange values.*  This system will continue with weeks owners even after the points system is implemented.
> 
> *But within the points system, it could be set up so that when an owner makes a reservation with the intent to exchange, the owner's equivalent point value is transferred to the owner's account and ultimately to the resort to which he's exchanged.  At the same time, rather than Marriott making that deposited or any other specific week available for exchanging, any non-home resort owner who wants to exchange in can do so on an equivalent point basis subject to availability and the reservation procedures.*
> 
> Whether or not inventory for home resort usage is depleted by weeks or points owners looking to exchange doesn't really matter, does it?  The intervals remain fixed according to unit type/view/# of days/weeks in a season, and the number of folks who can stay at a resort at any one time is finite.  But with points, exchange windows can open later than occupancy ones, and the possibility exists that MORE of the highest-demand weeks could be occupied by owners of either weeks or points because only weeks owners will be able to deposit them for exchanges.
> 
> As well, in the current system you as an owner have no idea when you're shut out of a desired reservation if that week was taken by an owner who will occupy it or exchange it.  Theoretically, currently at 12 months out 100% of any week could be completely gone, reserved by owners who intend to exchange.  At least within the points system with a home resort priority, when the reservation window opens you won't be competing with every other owner because points owners who want to exchange will have a later reservation window.



Right now folks set their atomic clocks to 8:00:00 AM CST to snap up juicy weeks and those that miss it by 5 seconds miss out.  How many of those are for usage, renting, and exchanging?  I don't have ANY Marriott stats so let's guess 33% go to exchanging.

If Marriott follows other Point systems an exchange outside of Marriott into II will be NOT by juicy weeks but by doggy weeks.

Marriott has NO reason at all but to not give II dogs - that's probably what Marriott and II debated a month or so again.  Why in the world should Marriott turn over a high demand week mixed into a bag of doggy weeks - to make the average better?  What's in it for Marriott?

Marriott could care less who exchanges in - they will all be invited to the sales pitch and I doubt that the better the exchange the better the chance of a sale applies.

So my guess is that there will be a lot of Silver and Gold weeks that II folks exchange into and thus Marriott folks will get doggy weeks in II - Marriott could care less.

Hopefully II will keep track of the doggy bag exchanges and owners who reserve high demand weeks - one can only hope...


----------



## PerryM

*It doesn't mater is my Point...*



dougp26364 said:


> I believe all owners will have a *fair* (there's that word again) value to their ownership - ALL. I believe Marriott owners, for the first time, will actually be able to see what their week is *worth*. Salesmen won't be able to hide the REAL *value* of the bronze HHI week when the prospect can't afford the Platinum week. Sales will become.....gasp.....a little more *honest*.



I've got my work cut out for me when words like "Fair", "Worth", "Value", and "Honest" are used in the same sentence as a timeshare sales group.

I doubt of the number of Points a person gets for their deed makes that much difference to 95% of Marriott owners.  Folks here, yes.

It's going to be a take it or leave it proposition and the clock will put pressure on converting instantly.

Let's give an example:

You own a week 52 at MountainSide and Marriott's calendar shows that it's worth 60,000 Points.

The same week at the Maui Ocean Club is worth 70,000 Points.

Do you convert or not?

Then to top it off waiting a single week costs you $500 a week to convert.

The Points mean nothing and it's just a decision to be welcomed into Marriott's loving arms or be kicked in the teeth.

Owners will convert no matter what the Points say.

P.S.
In the above example the Park City owner will not only convert and pay for that but probably buy 10,000 more Points just so they can vacation in Maui once in a while.


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> Very well said!
> 
> As for how Marriott determines which week goes into the point pool- wouldn't they either have to acknowledge the week on the deed they are taking back- so that they would then retain the rights to whatever week was on the deed or, alternately, maintain the stance that the week indication was for inventory purposes only and, if that is the case, wouldn't they only be entitled to whatever portion of every week according to the percentage of point weeks versus week weeks (so if 25% of owners convert to points, then 25% of every available arrival date will be in the points pool and 75% left in the weeks pool)? Of course, that would mean the percentages would constantly be in flux, as potentially more people opt in over time.
> 
> Legally, can they just arbitrarily decide which week they want to assign to the points pool? I would think (and hope) that it would either be a straight percentage or according to the actual deeded week. If the latter- it will be interesting, because of course the more in demand weeks will be more rewarding for Marriott to convert. And, at least some of those are resale weeks (as a matter of fact, my Plat. Aruba week happens to have one of the highest TDI weeks on the deed).


TDI doesn't mean much because they are not standardized.  IF this happens Marriott will have to have a "fair" way to allocate which unit weeks go into the new system and which stay in the old.  The two ways they could do it are by the week on the deed converted or by a straight % of the season, my guess is the latter.  They will have to run separate inventories unless everyone converts OR unless they get a vote of the actual owners to modify the documents and I'm guessing they need a super majority to make such a change but haven't checked.



> So you have no problem with Marriott taking weeks 22 to 30 and converting one of those prime weeks to points every time a platinum beach owner converts just because it is legal? Marriott's blatant disregard for current owner's loss for the benefit of "points members" is irrelevant? You don't mind that 100% of the converted points inventory will be prime platinum weeks while the majority of people who don't convert will choose from 100% of the non prime in season weeks (18 to 21 and 31 to 34) that marriott left in weeks and the ever decreasing availability of prime in season weeks?


I think we all would object to converting only a prime portion of a given season.  I don't see any way they could legally approach it this way UNLESS they got only owners deeded in those weeks to convert and even then, it'd be a little rocky legally.  



rickxylon said:


> How would a point system work with Accomodation Certificates (both receiving and using)?


That would be up to II.  It's likely that a points deposit would not get an AC.  You can only use them for inventory that is available that is within the parameters of the AC, same as currently.



tombo said:


> Not an offensive statement, not a statement naming any particular person, and still a statement I stand by. If  MARRIOTT OWNERS ( not you specifically) are going to trust Marriott to do what is best for them with reagrds to the new points program, I think they are too trusting, or naive, and either way in for a rude awakening (once again IMO).


I agree, and always have.  That is no different now than it was 5 years ago and no more so (or less) with Marriott than with DVC or anyone else, actually I'd put more trust in Marriott than most.  What I find interesting are those that bought making many assumptions and having too much trust and now they're realizing that things aren't quite what they thought they were.  Rude awakening for some.  However, at the end of the day, participating with ANY timeshare resort or system requires a certain amount of faith in that resort/system.  At least with a system like BG, Marriott, Disney, you're a lot less likely to have the GM or sec/trea run off with a significant portion of maint fees for the year as has happened a couple of times that I am aware of.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> I believe ALL Marriott owners will have reduced exchange value - ALL.
> 
> In my case there isn't any question - I'm not going to go to Maui anymore either joining Marriott or staying with II.
> 
> I can't think of a case where ANY Marriott owner will do better than what they have now.
> 
> Sure you can combine Points from a few Gold weeks and get Platinum but kiss ANY existing "upgrades" bye bye.
> 
> This is exactly what you would expect with a sales/exchange system - Marriott "lost" lots of money for 20+ years by allowing owners to exchange upwards - that should have been their upgrades to sell.
> 
> So starting on 6/21/10 your ability to upgrade an exchange now belongs to Marriott.
> 
> What about II?
> 
> I'm assuming the 24-day rule will expire soon and my Gold week will exchange in II for a similar Gold unit.  II will have the opportunity to level the playing field too.
> 
> This is going to be a great opportunity for Marriott and II to level the playing field and pocket all those lost upgrades they have been eying for 20 years.


Perry, once again you take the worst case scenario and go beyond it.  I think it's unrealistic to think that everyone that's currently an owner will be a loser, some will be worse off and others better off and likely most in the middle.  I too am assuming the 24 day priority will eventually go away but it might not.  Marriott might simply use points deposits within the current framework which is likely the best of both worlds for both current weeks owners and future points owners.  If that is the approach they take, all you'd lose in II would be volume but with a proportionate decrease in the volume on the other side as well.  And you'd likely have increased trade power in general either way though so would the other Marriott owners who are using II.


----------



## tombo

dougp26364 said:


> Those weeks can be impossible to get unless you time your call for the precise moment to be ahead of all the other owners. Just ask anyone wanting a summer week at NCV. I've never been able to reserve memorial week or Thanksgiving week at Ocean Pointe for the same reasons.
> 
> What a points system does is eliminate that problem. Points are points. They have a set value. No more owners reserving the most popular week just for trade power.



How will points eliminate issues of supply and demand? Many more owners want Memorial week or Thanksgiving week than there are weeks to go around. There is less supply of prime weeks than there is demand. Marriott is not decreasing the number of owners, or increasing the number of prime weeks, so the same heavy demand for an extremelly limited supply will always exist. 

If it is easier for you to get prime weeks using points, it means that Marriott has allocated a larger number of prime weeks to points inventory per points member than they allocated to weeks inventory. The easier access to inventory for those who convert to points will mean virtually no access to prime weeks for those who don't convert. If you think it was hard to reserve a prime week before, don't convert to points and try to get one next year.


----------



## dioxide45

tombo said:


> How will points eliminate issues of supply and demand? Many more owners want Memorial week or Thanksgiving week than there are weeks to go around. There is less supply of prime weeks than there is demand. Marriott is not decreasing the number of owners, or increasing the number of prime weeks, so the same heavy demand for an extremelly limited supply will always exist.
> 
> If it is easier for you to get prime weeks using points, it means that Marriott has allocated a larger number of prime weeks to points inventory per points member than they allocated to weeks inventory. The easier access to inventory for those who convert to points will mean virtually no access to prime weeks for those who don't convert. If you think it was hard to reserve a prime week before, don't convert to points and try to get one next year.



I have to agree with Doug. currently people looking to book for personal use that want prime week are competing against people wanting to book the highest demand week to plop in to II. In a point system, that all goes away. Those people exchanging are just reserving somewhere else. I would bet those in points wanting to exchange through II will get their week picked for them by Marriott.

There is now less demand for those super prime weeks and those that were shut out in the past by exchangers may actually get a week to occupy.


----------



## tombo

dioxide45 said:


> I have to agree with Doug. currently people looking to book for personal use that want prime week are competing against people wanting to book the highest demand week to plop in to II. In a point system, that all goes away.



Under weeks people wanting to reserve prime weeks for personal use, for renting to others for profit,  and for exchanges in II, all currently compete for limited inventory. Under points people wanting to spend a prime holiday week at the beach or ski resort will use their points the first day that reservations are allowed and they will compete against each other and the points members wanting to reserve a prime week to rent for profit. The only demand that might have been reduced is those who reserved prime weeks for their strong trading power to get good exchanges with II. Of course now that those people can't use the high demand Marriott weeks to snag good II inventory, they will snag the prime  weeks to use personally because they will not be able to get the good II trades anymore. The result is no net reduction in demand.

Points will not decrease demand for prime weeks, in fact many savvy owners will still grab the best weeks at the first second they come available as they always have, except now they will grab them for personal use rather than exchange power. The people who worked the system best before will not go away,they will change tactics. I will personally figure out some new angle if possible. If nothing else I will reserve the most sought after week I can get, rent it to someone for the most money I can, and then use the rental income to pay for a vacation from another owner who has a Marriott week I couldn't get, or who has a non Marriott week that I would have gotten on exchange in the past.


----------



## PerryM

*That tingling feeling up my leg...*



Dean said:


> Perry, once again you take the worst case scenario and go beyond it.  I think it's unrealistic to think that everyone that's currently an owner will be a loser, some will be worse off and others better off and likely most in the middle.  I too am assuming the 24 day priority will eventually go away but it might not.  Marriott might simply use points deposits within the current framework which is likely the best of both worlds for both current weeks owners and future points owners.  If that is the approach they take, all you'd lose in II would be volume but with a proportionate decrease in the volume on the other side as well.  And you'd likely have increased trade power in general either way though so would the other Marriott owners who are using II.



I've taken a studio week 52 at MountainSide and exchanged it for a 2BR in Orlando all within the Marriott 24-day II window.  I'm sure many have done this.  Not any more.

Somebody show me a scenario where ANYONE can do what we did in II all the time?  I can't think of a way to use Points and leverage them upwards.  Sadly the only thing left are equal exchanges and a lot of lesser exchanges.

Why?  Because a sales system has slithered up the legs of the exchange system and what was common before can not be allowed to happen when sales is involved.

We are NOT exchanging one exchange system for another exchange system - we are dumping an exchange system for a super sales system that will do a poor job of exchanging; compared to what we have now.

A year from now the complaints about II will simply be replaced by complaints about the new exchange system.


----------



## PerryM

dioxide45 said:


> I have to agree with Doug. currently people looking to book for personal use that want prime week are competing against people wanting to book the highest demand week to plop in to II. In a point system, that all goes away. Those people exchanging are just reserving somewhere else. I would bet those in points wanting to exchange through II will get their week picked for them by Marriott.
> 
> There is now less demand for those super prime weeks and those that were shut out in the past by exchangers may actually get a week to occupy.



How about just about EVERYONE competing for the same holiday weeks the salesreps sell 24/7.

Before there were limits, a Point system eliminates those limits and that carries over to exchanging.  So instead of ALL MOC owners wanting Christmas week how about ALL Marriott owners wanting the same thing; either to use or rent for big bucks.

Folks, this is going to be a completely different Marriott than what we have had for 20+ years.

P.S.
Don't be shocked when Marriott forbids renting your week.  It might not happen initially but the jealously won't take long and folks will demand that renting be abolished.  Marriott will just smile and forbid renting.  Of course they will continue to rent...


----------



## scrapngen

PerryM said:


> I've taken a studio week 52 at MountainSide and exchanged it for a 2BR in Orlando all within the Marriott 24-day II window.  I'm sure many have done this.  Not any more.
> 
> *Somebody show me a scenario where ANYONE can do what we did in II all the time?  I can't think of a way to use Points and leverage them upwards.*  Sadly the only thing left are equal exchanges and a lot of lesser exchanges.
> 
> Why?  Because a sales system has slithered up the legs of the exchange system and what was common before can not be allowed to happen when sales is involved.
> 
> We are NOT exchanging one exchange system for another exchange system - we are dumping an exchange system for a super sales system that will do a poor job of exchanging; compared to what we have now.
> 
> A year from now the complaints about II will simply be replaced by complaints about the new exchange system.



Perry, Perry, Perry....You can't have it both ways!!  

Here is a quote from your OWN post #2349: 

 "...I just reviewed my II account and EVERY exchange going back to 2000 is an "upgrade" - everyone of them.

There were many times I exchanged *4,000 WM credits* to stay at Beachplace Towers in a 2BR at 59-days in II. I counted 4 of them; my son and his frat brothers had a great time. My MF for the WM credits was $200 + exchange fee and the MF for BPT was always around $1,000.

That was an upgrade and nobody wanted that exchange so I got it; and *it was a hell of an upgrade.*

This is but one example of exchanges just sitting out there and folks decided to pass the reservation by...."

....Just sayin'

...Pretty sure WM is a points system last time I checked.... (and one many including you seem to like for its flexibility, etc, although I am sure it has its own things owners don't like as well)


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> I've taken a studio week 52 at MountainSide and exchanged it for a 2BR in Orlando all within the Marriott 24-day II window.  I'm sure many have done this.  Not any more.
> 
> Somebody show me a scenario where ANYONE can do what we did in II all the time?  I can't think of a way to use Points and leverage them upwards.  Sadly the only thing left are equal exchanges and a lot of lesser exchanges.
> 
> Why?  Because a sales system has slithered up the legs of the exchange system and what was common before can not be allowed to happen when sales is involved.
> 
> We are NOT exchanging one exchange system for another exchange system - we are dumping an exchange system for a super sales system that will do a poor job of exchanging; compared to what we have now.
> 
> A year from now the complaints about II will simply be replaced by complaints about the new exchange system.


I've done the same and better but that doesn't make it reasonable to the system, it really isn't a fair trade for the other side.


----------



## Dave M

I'm currently hearing that it will cost $169 every year (in addition to MFs and any conversion cost) to belong to the points program. Although the source seems authoritative, I don't have my usual 100% confidence in this statement.


----------



## Darlene

I'm trying to catch up on this thread. 
We went through this to some extent with Shell a few years ago. They converted everything to points. We were already a fixed week owner, and while they tried to get us to convert to points, for a nominal fee I might add  we kept our week. We still trade it with II, and I have not seen any difference. 
We own a fixed week with Marriott.  So what I can assertain from this thread is -
1. Marriott will have to continue to honor giving us our fixed week every year, so I know they will come after us to convert to points. 
2. We will still be able to trade for points, even though that has changed for Marriotts advantage. 
3. We will still be able to use II as an exchange company. 

Will Marriott be doing an internal exchange system for those who are on the new points system? 
Perry, you mentioned point values being assigned to weeks under the new system.  Does that mean my fixed week will never be able to trade into another season or into a higher resort on the tier? 
So many questions, too little time.
Darlene


----------



## BocaBum99

Dave M said:


> I'm currently hearing that it will cost $169 every year (in addition to MFs and any conversion cost) to belong to the points program. Although the source seems authoritative, I don't have my usual 100% confidence in this statement.



Does that include an II membership at no additional cost?  Or, do owners still have to get that separately as well?


----------



## rsackett

Dave M said:


> I'm currently hearing that it will cost $169 every year (in addition to MFs and any *conversion cost*) to belong to the points program. Although the source seems authoritative, I don't have my usual 100% confidence in this statement.



But tere is the question! Is the conversion cost $100 or $10,000?  Is it per week or per account?  Only time will tell.


----------



## SueDonJ

Dave M said:


> I'm currently hearing that it will cost $169 every year (in addition to MFs and any conversion cost) to belong to the points program. Although the source seems authoritative, I don't have my usual 100% confidence in this statement.



It makes sense, it's only a slight increase from the $159 mentioned in that Nov '08 survey, anyway.  (Thanks again, Gary!)

I suppose it can't hurt to go fishing, Dave.     Do you hear anything about the "Preferred Resort Priority" and the fee associated with that if it's adopted?


----------



## GregT

Anyone heard of Marriott Vacation Club Destinations?

I believe this is a new sign in the Sales Gallery -- please correct me if I'm wrong.    I'm trying to upload the picture, but it's too big -- will keep trying.

Picture uploaded on next message -- #2376 -- Aruba, here we come!!

All the best,

Greg


----------



## GregT

Okay, I think this is it -- I'm pretty sure this is new -- the Destinations has a TM next to it...

If you double click the picture, it will become normal size (I think).

There are also numerous new Plasma TV screens, but new TVs don't necessarily mean a massive new system.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> My point was that if exchangers have access to resorts, whether at 8 months or 12 months, owners can get locked out of their season much earlier than they could now. Even if all they care about is getting a random week. That's simply due to the fact that you give outsiders access to those weeks so there could be more requests for all the weeks in a season than there are owners.



Inventory control will keep that from happening for weeks owners. Marriott will always have to keep the number of contracted weeks owned by deeded weeks based owners. 

Points owners may find a different situation should Marriott come out with a trust based ownership that doesn't have a home resort priority. With a trust based ownership where everyone owns an interest in a group of resorts, if you have enough points to reserve a week, then you can reserve a week in ANY resort in that trust group. 

As an extreme example lets say that one trust has all the Hawaiian resorts. For whatever reason, let's say something happens that makes the Maui and Kauai bad choices for vacationing one year leaving Oahu as the only desirable Hawaiian island to vist. Now you would have owners at every Marriott Hawaii trying to book a unit at Ko Olina. Those that bought Ko Olina and then joined the points based program might find they can't get a unit at the resort they originally purchased. Ouch!

That's why I'm a little concerned about Fletch's statement (I believe it was Fletch) about no home resort advantage. I bought specific resorts to stay at those resorts. In Florida, I'm not certain I'd want to compete with every owner of an Orlando to get into my home resort at Ocean Pointe. If I remain a weeks owner, I'm guarenteed a week at my home resort. If Marriott goes to a trust based ownership with no home resort advantage, then I give up that week and will have to settle for any week in that trust for which I have enough points. If all the Orlando owners decide they want a beach vacation and beat me to the punch, rather than enjoying the ocean front unit I bought at Ocean Pointe I could be stuck vacationing in Orlando, which is a destination neither of us desire. 

There are things I like about points based reservations sytems but, if there's no home resort advantage, I'm not certain the things I like about points will be enough to get me to give up the home resort advantage I currently share.

I'm not concerned that if I remain weeks, that points based owners could snatch all the weeks at my resort. Points will have to be limited to the number of weeks converted. The HOA will still have to make adaquate weeks available to fullfill the contractual obligations given to those that hold deeds. 

This works for other companies that have converted. If it didn't, there would be a lot of LONG complaint threads warning others to stay away from that company. In my personal experience with DRI, which has deeded weeks owners, points overlay owners and trust based owners, no such problem with unit availability exists. No one has ever complained of being locked out of their season. I think lack of availabiltiy to reserve has no basis in fact to be a major concern.


----------



## GregT

The sign had listed all of the Hawaii Marriott properties (that I am aware of) -- each of the timeshares (including Kauai Lagoons), and also the Marriott hotels on Waikiki (including the Courtyard), Waikoloa, and Kauai -- but did not include any Ritz Carltons.


----------



## dougp26364

l2trade said:


> Yes, we are!  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.  I think $1 is too high a price to pay for Diamond Resorts resale.  But, as always, the marketplace will eventually sort it all out.
> 
> I plan to NEVER buy one of the new, post-Jun 20th, Marriott timeshare products resale.  I know all I need to know already.  It is not for me, but I respect that others may like it.  Call me old school, if you must.  As it relates to timeshares, I don't consider that an insult.  I much prefer the guarantee of a specific fixed week at a fixed resort and the separation of powers in exchanging through a 3rd party.  I will keep an open mind about buying one of the older 'weeks-only', Marriott resort deeds someday, preferably fixed platinum plus or holiday.
> 
> Marriott can never be like Disney and this isn't the first time they've tried.  Marriott's Great America, anyone?




There are vast differences between DRI and Marriott. Other than the fact DRI has weeks based ownership, points overlay and trust based ownership, there isn't really any comparison. 

DRI has never had ROFR as far as I am aware. Resale prices for DRI/Sunterra has never been nearly as high as Hilton or Marriott, both of which have very desirable resorts and use to exercise ROFR. 

If you believe that points programs are the only factor for resale prices then your mistaken. Resort and management quality play large roles. Sunterra went bankrupt not once but twice I believe. They were never a very sound management company, had many complaints against them, didn't place their resorts in prime locations, didn't provide the ameenites that Marriott resorts provide, didn't maintain their resorts to Marriott's standards et.......

If a points program is all there is to resale prices, then go price HGVC points and see if you can get those for $1.


----------



## PerryM

scrapngen said:


> Perry, Perry, Perry....You can't have it both ways!!
> 
> Here is a quote from your OWN post #2349:
> 
> "...I just reviewed my II account and EVERY exchange going back to 2000 is an "upgrade" - everyone of them.
> 
> There were many times I exchanged *4,000 WM credits* to stay at Beachplace Towers in a 2BR at 59-days in II. I counted 4 of them; my son and his frat brothers had a great time. My MF for the WM credits was $200 + exchange fee and the MF for BPT was always around $1,000.
> 
> That was an upgrade and nobody wanted that exchange so I got it; and *it was a hell of an upgrade.*
> 
> This is but one example of exchanges just sitting out there and folks decided to pass the reservation by...."
> 
> ....Just sayin'
> 
> ...Pretty sure WM is a points system last time I checked.... (and one many including you seem to like for its flexibility, etc, although I am sure it has its own things owners don't like as well)



I'm referring to the new Marriott system and how internally you can leverage a Point.

What makes timeshare leveraging work now are the interfaces from one system to another.  I upgraded from Gold to Platinum at the interface of Marriott and II.  The Platinum weeks I snagged were done at the 24 day window in II before they left Marriott and went to II.

It's all Marriott next week and the interface disappears and so does the leveraging.


----------



## davidvel

GregT said:


> Okay, I think this is it -- I'm pretty sure this is new -- the Destinations has a TM next to it...
> 
> If you double click the picture, it will become normal size (I think).
> 
> There are also numerous new Plasma TV screens, but new TVs don't necessarily mean a massive new system.



Yes _Marriott Vacation Club Destinations _is a *new TM* for Marriott International. It was just finalized by the USPTO on June 4th (just in time?)

http://tmportal.uspto.gov/external/...e&details=&SELECT=US+Serial+No&TEXT=77891147#

And a new web address (just purchased May 7th) to go along with the new name:

 Registrant: 
      Marriott International, Inc
      Marriott International
      6649 Westwood Blvd Suite 500
      Orlando, FL 32821
      US
      Email: mvci.webadmin@vacationclub.com

   Registrar Name....: CORPORATE DOMAINS, INC.
   Registrar Whois...: whois.corporatedomains.com
   Registrar Homepage: www.cscprotectsbrands.com 

   Domain Name: marriottvacationclubdestinations.com

      Created on..............: Fri, May 07, 2010
      Expires on..............: Thu, May 07, 2015
      Record last updated on..: Fri, May 07, 2010

   Administrative,Technical Contact:
      Marriott International
      WebAdmin MVCI
      6649 Westwood Blvd Suite 500
      Orlando, FL 32821
      US
      Phone: +1.4072066000
      Email: mvci.webadmin@vacationclub.com


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I've got my work cut out for me when words like "Fair", "Worth", "Value", and "Honest" are used in the same sentence as a timeshare sales group.
> 
> I doubt of the number of Points a person gets for their deed makes that much difference to 95% of Marriott owners.  Folks here, yes.
> 
> It's going to be a take it or leave it proposition and the clock will put pressure on converting instantly.
> 
> Let's give an example:
> 
> You own a week 52 at MountainSide and Marriott's calendar shows that it's worth 60,000 Points.
> 
> The same week at the Maui Ocean Club is worth 70,000 Points.
> 
> Do you convert or not?
> 
> Then to top it off waiting a single week costs you $500 a week to convert.
> 
> The Points mean nothing and it's just a decision to be welcomed into Marriott's loving arms or be kicked in the teeth.
> 
> Owners will convert no matter what the Points say.
> 
> P.S.
> In the above example the Park City owner will not only convert and pay for that but probably buy 10,000 more Points just so they can vacation in Maui once in a while.




O.K. let's take a look at this.

On the surface, you're comparing only two resorts. If I want to use my week 52 mountainside and rarely, if ever trade it. No, I'm not converting. 

But let's say I've grown tired of going to Mountainside every week 52 and would like to branch out. Maybe I want to go to Williamsburg in the fall, Orlando in the spring or maybe even trade back into Mountainside in the summer. For the sake of the arguement, lets say I've had health changes and can no longer ski or be at high altitudes during the winter months. If I stayed in a weeks based program, how do you think I'd feel giving up that week 52 for an Orlando week, summer Mountainside week or fall Williamsburg week straight up? I bet even you would feel this isn't a fair exchange. 

Now, let's put this in points terms. Mountainside week 52 is worth 60,000 points. Fall Williamsburg is worth 25,000 points. Spring Orlando is worth 25,000 points and summer Mountainside is worth 25,000 points. Does this seem a little more desirable for exchanging that week 52? I bet even you would have to admit that yes it's a little more fair. The week 52 Mountainsid owner would now be getting fair value for their week rather than face trading down, just because the wanted to go from a very high demand week to a location in shoulder season.

How about this scenario. Marriott puts into it's plan a less than 60 day reservation window and discounts reservations by 50% for thesse short notice exchanges. Now, if the Mountainside owner wants to risk it, they can get Orlando, Williamsburg and a summer week at Mountain side for a grand total of 37,500 points and still have 12,500 left over. Maybe those points can be converted to MF's at 5 cents per point to offset MF's by $625! Now how does that look to you? Maybe the Maui Ocean Club owner might want to spend 60,000 points to go to Mountainside on week 52. That owner will still have 10,000 points remaining. Rather than trade down just slightly, he'll get FULL value for his trade making his week worth even more to him. Heck, he might even be able to nab a studio Ko 'Olina unit for 4 days in September so, he'll still get a little Hawaii plus get that week 52 at Mountainside.

You see Perry, there's a positive side to all that you put out there that's negative. You know darn good and well that there are some very good things that can be done with points. You choose to focus on strictly the negative and are really pushing TUGGERS to believe this will be all bad.

PS: If the Mountainside owner wants to go to Maui once in a while, he'll probably just borrow 10,000 points from the next year or, maybe save 10,000 points from the present year and go to Maui once in a while without the need to buy more points.


----------



## SueDonJ

GregT said:


> Okay, I think this is it -- I'm pretty sure this is new -- the Destinations has a TM next to it...
> 
> If you double click the picture, it will become normal size (I think).
> 
> There are also numerous new Plasma TV screens, but new TVs don't necessarily mean a massive new system.





GregT said:


> The sign had listed all of the Hawaii Marriott properties (that I am aware of) -- each of the timeshares (including Kauai Lagoons), and also the Marriott hotels on Waikiki (including the Courtyard), Waikoloa, and Kauai -- but did not include any Ritz Carltons.



I wonder if that's something available in the Asia Pacific Program, the established points system that includes the Hawaii resorts?  Or maybe it is something new to do with whatever they may be rolling out ...

(Again with a comparison to another system, but Disney offers "destination trips" through their Adventures by Disney program.  It isn't connected, though, to DVC.  Maybe this is a Marriott offering not connected to MVCI and they're simply taking advantage of the ad space in that Sales Preview Center?)

{edited to add} Nevermind, I see Davidvel's post and now think this is a new thing connected to MVCI and some Marriott hotels, similar to Disney's Adventures By Disney.  (FYI, the marriottvacationclubdestinations.com page won't load for me.)


----------



## l2trade

Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.

2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points.  An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.

3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period.  Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.

4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust.  Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell.  You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail.  The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy.  The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.

5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.

6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc...  Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for *nightly* hotel rentals.

7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II.  I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made.  They will not interfere with owner deposits.

8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past.  This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it.  The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.

Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.  

The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights.  The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc.  Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts.  Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.

I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system.  I do not.  I expect this system will make things more 'fair'.  By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't.  In a word, I say *!$#@+!*.


----------



## tombo

dougp26364 said:


> You know darn good and well that there are some very good things that can be done with points. You choose to focus on strictly the negative and are really pushing TUGGERS to believe this will be all bad.



I am sure that the new Marriott points system isn't all bad. Heck if you look hard enough some good can be found in most anything. For example if you look beyond the obvious psychopathic, murdering, raping, piece of animal dung that is Joran Vandersloot, you can see that he is a guy who loves his mom. I am glad that some owners will be able to dig deep enough to find the good in Marriott and their points program after it is launched. I feel sure it will take a lot of digging to find good points while the bad points will be glaring at all of us.


----------



## l2trade

dougp26364 said:


> There are vast differences between DRI and Marriott. Other than the fact DRI has weeks based ownership, points overlay and trust based ownership, there isn't really any comparison.
> 
> DRI has never had ROFR as far as I am aware. Resale prices for DRI/Sunterra has never been nearly as high as Hilton or Marriott, both of which have very desirable resorts and use to exercise ROFR.
> 
> If you believe that points programs are the only factor for resale prices then your mistaken. Resort and management quality play large roles. Sunterra went bankrupt not once but twice I believe. They were never a very sound management company, had many complaints against them, didn't place their resorts in prime locations, didn't provide the ameenites that Marriott resorts provide, didn't maintain their resorts to Marriott's standards et.......
> 
> If a points program is all there is to resale prices, then go price HGVC points and see if you can get those for $1.



I never said Marriott resale values would go to $1.  I said DRI resales values are worth less than $1.  I agree DRI resort and management quality is much lower and complaints against them are high.  You are right.  The comparisons mostly end at weeks based ownership, points overlay and trust based ownership.  And, I am right to hold onto my personal opinion that I like the older product better than the new.  The new product is too granular and flexible to allow for analytical and patient planners like myself to benefit from the seasonal & unit size & timing imbalances common in a week for week 3rd party exchange system.  My hope is that enough existing Marriott owners stick with the old weeks system that it doesn't squash my II trading fortunes.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> O.K. let's take a look at this.
> 
> On the surface, you're comparing only two resorts. If I want to use my week 52 mountainside and rarely, if ever trade it. No, I'm not converting.
> 
> But let's say I've grown tired of going to Mountainside every week 52 and would like to branch out. Maybe I want to go to Williamsburg in the fall, Orlando in the spring or maybe even trade back into Mountainside in the summer. For the sake of the arguement, lets say I've had health changes and can no longer ski or be at high altitudes during the winter months. If I stayed in a weeks based program, how do you think I'd feel giving up that week 52 for an Orlando week, summer Mountainside week or fall Williamsburg week straight up? I bet even you would feel this isn't a fair exchange.
> 
> *Now, let's put this in points terms. Mountainside week 52 is worth 60,000 points. Fall Williamsburg is worth 25,000 points. Spring Orlando is worth 25,000 points and summer Mountainside is worth 25,000 points. Does this seem a little more desirable for exchanging that week 52? I bet even you would have to admit that yes it's a little more fair. The week 52 Mountainsid owner would now be getting fair value for their week rather than face trading down, just because the wanted to go from a very high demand week to a location in shoulder season.*
> 
> How about this scenario. Marriott puts into it's plan a less than 60 day reservation window and discounts reservations by 50% for thesse short notice exchanges. Now, if the Mountainside owner wants to risk it, they can get Orlando, Williamsburg and a summer week at Mountain side for a grand total of 37,500 points and still have 12,500 left over. Maybe those points can be converted to MF's at 5 cents per point to offset MF's by $625! Now how does that look to you? Maybe the Maui Ocean Club owner might want to spend 60,000 points to go to Mountainside on week 52. That owner will still have 10,000 points remaining. Rather than trade down just slightly, he'll get FULL value for his trade making his week worth even more to him. Heck, he might even be able to nab a studio Ko 'Olina unit for 4 days in September so, he'll still get a little Hawaii plus get that week 52 at Mountainside.
> 
> You see Perry, there's a positive side to all that you put out there that's negative. You know darn good and well that there are some very good things that can be done with points. You choose to focus on strictly the negative and are really pushing TUGGERS to believe this will be all bad.
> 
> PS: If the Mountainside owner wants to go to Maui once in a while, he'll probably just borrow 10,000 points from the next year or, maybe save 10,000 points from the present year and go to Maui once in a while without the need to buy more points.



To me that's exchanging "down".

I own a Bentley and enter it into a car exchange where I get to rent 2 Hondas and 2 Toyotas for a total of 4 weeks for 1 week in my Bentley.

This is my Point - exchanging down is easy, exchanging up is impossible.


----------



## l2trade

tombo said:


> I am sure that the new Marriott points system isn't all bad. Heck if you look hard enough some good can be found in most anything. For example if you look beyond the obvious psychopathic, murdering, raping, piece of animal dung that is Joran Vandersloot, you can see that he is a guy who loves his mom. I am glad that some owners will be able to dig deep enough to find the good in Marriott and their points program after it is launched. I feel sure it will take a lot of digging to find good points while the bad points will be glaring at all of us.



The good points will be plentiful.  Timeshares will work more like nightly hotel reservations, except you will use points instead of cash.  And, except you will spend a huge chunk of change upfront for the privilege to commit annual ongoing MF (convert your useless cash to points - yeah).  And, except timeshares are designed to achieve maximum levels of occupancy, early on and year round.  This is unlike hotel rooms, where you can typically find availability almost anywhere last minute for all but the top spots at the top times.

On second thought, why not stick with cash?


----------



## scrapngen

l2trade said:


> Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
> 1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.
> 
> 2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points.  An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.
> 
> 3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period.  Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.
> 
> 4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust.  Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell.  You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail.  The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy.  The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.
> 
> 5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.
> 
> 6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc...  Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for *nightly* hotel rentals.
> 
> 7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II.  I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made.  They will not interfere with owner deposits.
> 
> 8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past.  This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it.  The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.
> 
> Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.
> 
> The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights.  The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc.  Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts.  Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.
> 
> I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system.  I do not.  I expect this system will make things more 'fair'.  By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't.  In a word, I say *!$#@+!*.



Thanks so much for sharing the newest info...So am I understanding this right, that each year each member who converts will decide to use points or weeks? So when they are using weeks it could still be to trade through II? or will there be some way points trade into II that might be favorable as a decision?? More info just leads to more questions 

 If it is a choice, that could still have people grabbing the "best" weeks to trade, rather than use their points. Also, I suppose that the choice is premade if one chooses to borrow from another year...let's see, also, if one only chooses points every couple of years, I suspect they are still paying that yearly fee on top of their MF's (!?!) :annoyed: And a II fee as well?? Just wondering how many layers this goes. Will there be special extra fees when using less than a week? or getting two lesser weeks for one plat. week?? Surely, they have fees there as well...I guess now you do pay for each reservation in II, not just the yearly membership, so now we do this twice to belong to the inner Marriott trades and the non-Marriott trading through II or elsewhere?? 

And of course, I'm sure the only way we maintain home resort advantage/legacy is to do it now rather than later...


----------



## mightywyrm

l2trade said:


> ... On second thought, why not stick with cash?



Bear in mind, as I'm sure you're aware, that points (and poker chips) spend a lot more easily than dollars.  It's part of the design.


----------



## l2trade

PerryM said:


> To me that's exchanging "down".
> 
> I own a Bentley and enter it into a car exchange where I get to rent 2 Hondas and 2 Toyotas for a total of 4 weeks for 1 week in my Bentley.
> 
> This is my Point - exchanging down is easy, exchanging up is impossible.



Exchanging up will be easy too.  You will give up your Honda week for one night in a Bentley.  That may seem fair to most, but is not a game I want to play.  Boring!  Without the lure of great trades, free upgrades, splitting, bonus weeks...  Well, without all of that, I would rather rent.  I love to trade and if the system gets to a stage where everything is just like points and points are just like dollars...  Well, with that, I would rather just play with real dollars.  There will always be new bargains to find when you play with real dollars.  The only point for me in converting my currency into pre-paid vacations is if I can generate great results and cost savings for having done so.  I realize people buy for other reasons.  For me, it all boils down to the money.  Buying my timeshares, I choose value & commitment over convenience & flexibility.  Let's face it, owning a timeshare is always a question of commitment, and commitments are rarely easy, convenient or flexible.  Cash is King!


----------



## DanCali

dougp26364 said:


> Inventory control will keep that from happening for weeks owners. Marriott will always have to keep the number of contracted weeks owned by deeded weeks based owners.



I agree that's the way to go... my exaple was an illustration in response to Susan why inventory has to be separated. I do not think people will not get locked out of their season. 

So back to the original question... which weeks? Keeping the "number of weeks ontracted by deeded weeks" should hardly be reassuring when considering this problem. An equal proportion of every checkin day? Or something less equitable?


----------



## PerryM

l2trade said:


> Exchanging up will be easy too.  You will give up your Honda week for one night in a Bentley.  That may seem fair to most, but is not a game I want to play.  Boring!  Without the lure of great trades, free upgrades, splitting, bonus weeks...  Well, without all of that, I would rather rent.  I love to trade and if the system gets to a stage where everything is just like points and points are just like dollars...  Well, with that, I would rather just play with real dollars.  There will always be new bargains to find when you play with real dollars.  The only point for me in converting my currency into pre-paid vacations is if I can generate great results and cost savings for having done so.  I realize people buy for other reasons.  For me, it all boils down to the money.  Buying my timeshares, I choose value & commitment over convenience & flexibility.  Let's face it, owning a timeshare is always a question of commitment, and commitments are rarely easy, convenient or flexible.  Cash is King!



Well I don't see Marriott getting into nightly rentals, thus the only way to "upgrade" is to pull future Points into this year or to combine Points but the net net is ALWAYS exchanging downward.

In my WM account I never had deeds to begin with and bought Points (Credits).  But new resorts cost way more than 20 year old resorts.


----------



## l2trade

scrapngen said:


> Thanks so much for sharing the newest info...So am I understanding this right, that each year each member who converts will decide to use points or weeks?


Yes, that is correct.


scrapngen said:


> So when they are using weeks it could still be to trade through II? or will there be some way points trade into II that might be favorable as a decision?? More info just leads to more questions


You can trade through II with your weeks or points, whichever you chose for that year.  Someone who owns a 2 bedroom non-lockoff platinum week in a high demand location may prefer to trade with points in II.  This will offer them the opportunity to stretch the value of their week into more than one week.  In a sense, it allows them to virtually downgrade into more weeks.  Conversely, someone who owns a cheap one bedroom gold week may choose to trade with weeks in II for the shot at a free upgrade.


scrapngen said:


> If it is a choice, that could still have people grabbing the "best" weeks to trade, rather than use their points. Also, I suppose that the choice is premade if one chooses to borrow from another year...let's see, also, if one only chooses points every couple of years, I suspect they are still paying that yearly fee on top of their MF's (!?!) :annoyed: And a II fee as well?? Just wondering how many layers this goes. Will there be special extra fees when using less than a week? or getting two lesser weeks for one plat. week?? Surely, they have fees there as well...I guess now you do pay for each reservation in II, not just the yearly membership, so now we do this twice to belong to the inner Marriott trades and the non-Marriott trading through II or elsewhere??


I am assured that owners will still have the same rights to the old system as before.  I do not know enough details about fees within the new system to reliably share it.  We should find out all the point values and fee details starting on Jun 20th.  It is too late to pry again tonight with my contact.  While the sales folks are mostly trained on the high level changes, further staff training is planned for Thu-Sat and additional pricing details will be released on need-to-know.


scrapngen said:


> And of course, I'm sure the only way we maintain home resort advantage/legacy is to do it now rather than later...


The only way to maintain home resort advantage/legacy is to already own it now or sign contract with your cash deposit by EOD Jun 16th.  IMHO, if you are not already an owner, save your money.  It is too late and not a wise investment until all these changes play out.


----------



## dougp26364

l2trade said:


> I never said Marriott resale values would go to $1.  I said DRI resales values are worth less than $1.  I agree DRI resort and management quality is much lower and complaints against them are high.  You are right.  The comparisons mostly end at weeks based ownership, points overlay and trust based ownership.  And, I am right to hold onto my personal opinion that I like the older product better than the new.  The new product is too granular and flexible to allow for analytical and patient planners like myself to benefit from the seasonal & unit size & timing imbalances common in a week for week 3rd party exchange system.  My hope is that enough existing Marriott owners stick with the old weeks system that it doesn't squash my II trading fortunes.



I'm curious how you can say that you prefer the current Marriott product to the new when there is no new yet? 

If you go by what Perry predicts, no one will see a benefit to changing. The thing is, it's all speculation right now. 

If you're one of those unwilling to even consider something new then that's fine. No one has said you must consider changing. Unfortunately a change is coming whether despite our opinions. At this point, we're just hashing out the possibitities and what we think owners should look for in the new system. If you're aware of advantages and pitfalls before hand, it should make it easier to ask the questions that are important to you in order to analyze whether or not this is the right product for you.

IMHO, even if an owner decides to remain in the weeks based program, nothing major will change. I believe one will still be able to either use their week as they have in the past or exchange through I.I. I believe the Marriott priority will remain and I believe that for the forseable future, there will be plenty of weeks based inventory to exchange into. 

I am concerned that over time this could change. That's weeks based inventory will become less and that the newer resorts, being 100% points, will be more difficult for weeks based owners to exchange into. I have no facts to base the concern on but, I see it as a potential issue 10 or 15 years down the road. So the question in my mind is, will I be upset at that point/age or will I continue to be content with the current 50 Marriott resorts that should still have adaquate weeks inventory.

Remember, if Marriott tries to lock-out resale owners, that only means that all the weeks sold via the re-sale market will go into the weeks based inventory. Older resorts may remain mostly weeks based and be available for exchange for the length of my lifetime.


----------



## l2trade

PerryM said:


> Well I don't see Marriott getting into nightly rentals, thus the only way to "upgrade" is to pull future Points into this year or to combine Points but the net net is ALWAYS exchanging downward.
> 
> In my WM account I never had deeds to begin with and bought Points (Credits).  But new resorts cost way more than 20 year old resorts.



Yes, Marriott is getting into nightly rentals.  The new point system is designed to eliminate the Fri-Sun only check-in days.  Owners will be able to book stays for less than one week.  I do not know what the minimum night stay requirement is.  I forgot if I asked that question.  I am thinking (guessing) it is two night minimum?


----------



## taffy19

*Read This*

*The New Marriott Timeshare Organization*






It’s official folks – the name of the new timeshare division of Marriott is “Marriott Vacation Club Destinations” which will be launched on Monday, June 21, 2010.
The website will be: www.MarriottVacationClubDestinations.com

http://www.timesharewizard.com/marriott-vacation-club-destinations.html


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> To me that's exchanging "down".
> 
> I own a Bentley and enter it into a car exchange where I get to rent 2 Hondas and 2 Toyotas for a total of 4 weeks for 1 week in my Bentley.
> 
> This is my Point - exchanging down is easy, exchanging up is impossible.



No it's not. I can do it anytime I want with both HGVC and DRI. If I want a 2 bedroom ocean front in HHV, all I have to do is save points from one year to the next or borrow points from the next year. If I want to stay in a penthouse unit at my home resort, I can do it the same way. I paid for 7,000 points and that's the number of points I can use. If I want the more point-expensive units I can either buy them or manipulate the system to work for me. But it IS fair and you CAN trade up. Heck, you even gave an example of how you traded up using 4,000 Worldmark points to get a 2 bedroom Beachplace Towers. You even stated it was a major trade up in value. How you can say that you can't trade up is beyond me. You just have to know how to work the new system. You and I both know how owners can do this and, after the new Marriott system comes out, TUGGERS will be discussing with each other how to do it with Marriott's system. 

What you're talking about is being able to scam the system by trading a lower value for a higher value. You and I have been doing that with the weeks based exchange system for years. Well my friend, those days may be coming to an end with Marriott. We've been able to milk the system at others expense. We bought cheap and traded expensive while others bought expensive but have to trade down. Owners in a points based system get EXACTLY what they paid for. 

You paid for a resale Gold Summit Watch week and that's what you'll get in the new system.......if you join the new system. I've been trading a silver season studio week at Ocean Pointe for 2 bedroom Platinum weeks at Willow Ridge in Branson. Are those exchanges fair? Not really. I just had enough knowledge to know how to work the system. Points, on the other hand, will be fair.


----------



## PerryM

*Say What?*



l2trade said:


> Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
> 1. *Existing owners will retain home resort deed*, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.
> 
> 2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points.  An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.
> 
> 3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period.  Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.
> 
> 4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust.  Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell.  You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail.  The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy.  The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.
> 
> 5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.
> 
> 6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc...  Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for *nightly* hotel rentals.
> 
> 7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II.  I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made.  They will not interfere with owner deposits.
> 
> 8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past.  This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it.  The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.
> 
> Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.
> 
> The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights.  The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc.  Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts.  Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.
> 
> I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system.  I do not.  I expect this system will make things more 'fair'.  By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't.  In a word, I say *!$#@+!*.



What is all the above?  A WAG or rumors from salesreps being trained.

I don't see a Trust system in the above.

I'm confused.

I thought a Disney guru designed the system - this ain't no Disney.

This sounds more like Resort2Resort or RedWeek.


----------



## DanCali

l2trade said:


> Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
> 1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.
> 
> 2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points.  An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.
> 
> 3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period.  Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.
> 
> 4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust.  Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell.  You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail.  The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy.  The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.
> 
> 5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.
> 
> 6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc...  Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for *nightly* hotel rentals.
> 
> 7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II.  I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made.  They will not interfere with owner deposits.
> 
> 8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past.  This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it.  The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.
> 
> Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.
> 
> The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights.  The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc.  Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts.  Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.
> 
> I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system.  I do not.  I expect this system will make things more 'fair'.  By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't.  In a word, I say *!$#@+!*.



l2trade... not sure who your source is but thanks for getting this info.

This leads to a bunch more questions...

1) if you upgrade to points, is it a perpetual commitment of $169 per year + "inflation" (on top of the upgrade cost). Is there a way to get out if you don't like it?

2) The fee sounds Starwood-style. 60% more expensive but includes all you can eat exchanges? Will the II account support both weks and points or will there be a separate corporate account?

3) Does the upgraded unit retain that status upon a resale or will a new buyer be asked to fork over an additional upgrade fee (and thus we likely get dinged on resale values on top of paying our own upgrade fee)?

4) Any insight on the inventory questions raised in the last couple of days?


Is trading into low season in Orlando and the desert that big of a selling point when you can get those Marriott or Westin/Sheraton weeks as getaways for $300-$400 or even less?

Since I don't think NCV will be able to trade into Hawaii 2BRs using points, I think I'll take my chances with II... I'd also be more inclined to stay in weeks if I need to pay the conversion fee "twice," once when I join and once when I get dinged on the resale price if a new owner also needs to pay it (related to Q3 above). Conversely, I'd be more inclined to join if it was a one time fee for the life of the unit (a new owner would not owe it again) and I could get in for cheap. The reason is that such an arrangement may make upgraded units more valuable on the resale market since (i) they are both points and weeks - one can choose and (ii) the upgrade fee would be more expensive in the future if a new owner had to pay for an unconverted unit, but it's already been paid for a converted unit.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> No it's not. I can do it anytime I want with both HGVC and DRI. If I want a 2 bedroom ocean front in HHV, all I have to do is save points from one year to the next or borrow points from the next year. If I want to stay in a penthouse unit at my home resort, I can do it the same way. I paid for 7,000 points and that's the number of points I can use. If I want the more point-expensive units I can either buy them or manipulate the system to work for me. But it IS fair and you CAN trade up. Heck, you even gave an example of how you traded up using 4,000 Worldmark points to get a 2 bedroom Beachplace Towers. You even stated it was a major trade up in value. How you can say that you can't trade up is beyond me. You just have to know how to work the new system. You and I both know how owners can do this and, after the new Marriott system comes out, TUGGERS will be discussing with each other how to do it with Marriott's system.
> 
> What you're talking about is being able to scam the system by trading a lower value for a higher value. You and I have been doing that with the weeks based exchange system for years. Well my friend, those days may be coming to an end with Marriott. We've been able to milk the system at others expense. We bought cheap and traded expensive while others bought expensive but have to trade down. Owners in a points based system get EXACTLY what they paid for.
> 
> You paid for a resale Gold Summit Watch week and that's what you'll get in the new system.......if you join the new system. I've been trading a silver season studio week at Ocean Pointe for 2 bedroom Platinum weeks at Willow Ridge in Branson. Are those exchanges fair? Not really. I just had enough knowledge to know how to work the system. Points, on the other hand, will be fair.



I agree that a "Point is a Point" but we are transferring systems and compare weeks to Points.  Hence my claim that ALL exchanges eventually lead to downgrades compared to weeks.

If Marriott mixes and matches Points and Weeks this will be easy to see.  If weeks disappear and Points only exist then there is no way to view a comparison.


----------



## taffy19

All I read is a change of name!  We still have to wait a little longer what the change of name really means.  I signed up for a new webinar for next week since I missed the one of tomorrow as they never called me back.  I posted about it here.  It is so strange that they still were pitching making exchanges with II.  

I would assume that the Webinars are up to date?

https://ssl.conferencing.com/cork/index.asp


----------



## PerryM

*Say Cheese!*



l2trade said:


> Yes, Marriott is getting into nightly rentals.  The new point system is designed to eliminate the Fri-Sun only check-in days.  Owners will be able to book stays for less than one week.  I do not know what the minimum night stay requirement is.  I forgot if I asked that question.  I am thinking (guessing) it is two night minimum?



This makes no sense to timeshare folks, it makes a lot of sense to Motel 6 folks.

The calendar will quickly look like Swiss Cheese - full of holes that short term folks love but 2-week folks will find intolerable.

Forget the Swiss Cheese and think Limburger cheese.


----------



## l2trade

dougp26364 said:


> I'm curious how you can say that you prefer the current Marriott product to the new when there is no new yet?
> 
> If you go by what Perry predicts, no one will see a benefit to changing. The thing is, it's all speculation right now.
> 
> If you're one of those unwilling to even consider something new then that's fine. No one has said you must consider changing. Unfortunately a change is coming whether despite our opinions. At this point, we're just hashing out the possibitities and what we think owners should look for in the new system. If you're aware of advantages and pitfalls before hand, it should make it easier to ask the questions that are important to you in order to analyze whether or not this is the right product for you.
> 
> IMHO, even if an owner decides to remain in the weeks based program, nothing major will change. I believe one will still be able to either use their week as they have in the past or exchange through I.I. I believe the Marriott priority will remain and I believe that for the forseable future, there will be plenty of weeks based inventory to exchange into.
> 
> I am concerned that over time this could change. That's weeks based inventory will become less and that the newer resorts, being 100% points, will be more difficult for weeks based owners to exchange into. I have no facts to base the concern on but, I see it as a potential issue 10 or 15 years down the road. So the question in my mind is, will I be upset at that point/age or will I continue to be content with the current 50 Marriott resorts that should still have adaquate weeks inventory.
> 
> Remember, if Marriott tries to lock-out resale owners, that only means that all the weeks sold via the re-sale market will go into the weeks based inventory. Older resorts may remain mostly weeks based and be available for exchange for the length of my lifetime.



It is not all speculation anymore.  It is happening.  I've spoken with people in the know.  I can say that I prefer the current product to the new one because I prefer fixed weeks over floating weeks and floating weeks over points.  I am old school in that way.  I do not want to own points in a Trust over an underlying Deed.  I agree there are plenty of pros and cons to both sides.  From what I know, the legacy owners will have the best of both worlds in a sense.  They will get to keep their deeds and old rules while also getting the option to convert to points or not annually.  Some legacy deeds will be better and others will be worse than the new system.  It will depend on what you own, where, when, size, season & MF.

In my situation, I often trade into Marriott from other brands via II.  I see nothing here which suggests the availability for external week trades to improve.  So, of course I like the old system better.  If I already owned a Marriott platinum week at a desirable home resort with reasonable MF, I would be much more open to the new system concept, in order to have the best of both worlds.  It is too late for me to go buy that now.  And, 15% off is not enough of an incentive to purchase new during my last chance tomorrow, even with the rescission window.  You see, it is not 60% off.  I might do it if that were what it seemed at first glance.  The 60% off is actually to buy an EOY unit for 60% off of the annual unit price.  Misleading promotion, eh?  So surprising to see that coming from a timeshare sales promotion.


----------



## PerryM

*DOA*



l2trade said:


> Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
> 1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.
> 
> 2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points.  An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.
> 
> 3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period.  Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.
> 
> 4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust.  Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell.  You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail.  The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy.  The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.
> 
> 5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.
> 
> 6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc...  Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for *nightly* hotel rentals.
> 
> 7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II.  I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made.  They will not interfere with owner deposits.
> 
> 8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past.  This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it.  The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.
> 
> Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.
> 
> The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights.  The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc.  Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts.  Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.
> 
> I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system.  I do not.  I expect this system will make things more 'fair'.  By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't.  In a word, I say *!$#@+!*.



If the above turns out to be true, the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations is DOA - it was designed for the wrong crowd - the Motel 6 folks.

New sales are going to be Points in a motel system.

This might be perfect for other parts of the world but not what we are used to.

Kind of like those stupid horns that are killing the World Cup - the home country loves them and I just stopped watching World Cup over the morons blowing those things.

Remember when Coke brought out the "New Coke" and everyone hated it and they had to bring back "Classic Coke".

Maybe that's what we have here "Classic Marriott" and "New Marriott" - let's see which outlasts the other.


----------



## l2trade

PerryM said:


> What is all the above?  A WAG or rumors from salesreps being trained.
> 
> I don't see a Trust system in the above.
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> I thought a Disney guru designed the system - this ain't no Disney.
> 
> This sounds more like Resort2Resort or RedWeek.



No, this ain't no Disney!  I said that in an earlier post and got challenged for going too far with my comparison to DRI.   

The TRUST is for all developer owned and unsold annual inventory from Jun 17th forward.  There are loads and loads of unsold inventory from which to create this and establish a foundational point system on Day One.

Everything already owned as deeds will stay as deeds, conversion or not.  I've been assured that existing owners will not be required to turn over their deeds to the TRUST to join the new system.  IMHO, that is a very good thing for those owners.  It could be a whole lot worse.  Just take the DRI comparison deeper and you will see what I mean.


----------



## l2trade

PerryM said:


> If the above turns out to be true, the new Marriott Vacation Club Destinations is DOA - it was designed for the wrong crowd - the Motel 6 folks.
> 
> New sales are going to be Points in a motel system.
> 
> This might be perfect for other parts of the world but not what we are used to.
> 
> Kind of like those stupid horns that are killing the World Cup - the home country loves them and I just stopped watching World Cup over the morons blowing those things.
> 
> Remember when Coke brought out the "New Coke" and everyone hated it and they had to bring back "Classic Coke".
> 
> Maybe that's what we have here "Classic Marriott" and "New Marriott" - let's see which outlasts the other.



Unfortunately, this won't be DOA.  I liken this to a burn the boat strategy.  Marriott is holding a ton of unsold inventory.  They needed a new game to reach a new audience.  They want new methods to get control over allocating empty rooms.  They decided to manage timeshares more like they manage hotels.


----------



## l2trade

PerryM said:


> I agree that a "Point is a Point" but we are transferring systems and compare weeks to Points.  Hence my claim that ALL exchanges eventually lead to downgrades compared to weeks.
> 
> If Marriott mixes and matches Points and Weeks this will be easy to see.  If weeks disappear and Points only exist then there is no way to view a comparison.



Weeks aren't going away.  We should be able to compare week to point week sightings.  To be clear, I am told that nightly Marriott system point inventory will be primarily managed by Marriott, not II.  Marriott point owners can search for weeks with points in II if they decide to go that route.  In the coming months, I plan to do enough comparative analysis, that only a true die hard Tugger could understand and appreciate.  My wife is asleep.  She probably thinks I'm crazy for all the research and phone calls I've been making.


----------



## l2trade

PerryM said:


> This makes no sense to timeshare folks, it makes a lot of sense to Motel 6 folks.
> 
> The calendar will quickly look like Swiss Cheese - full of holes that short term folks love but 2-week folks will find intolerable.
> 
> Forget the Swiss Cheese and think Limburger cheese.



LMAO, funny you mention Motel 6...

Motel 6 is part of the classic timeshare sales script used for decades to sell newbies on the timesharing concept.  I've lost count how many times I've heard the same lines delivered the same way by so many different developers.  A common skeptical response was that Motel 6 doesn't force one to stay an entire week at a time.  Finally, Marriott will have a new comeback line to that.  I expect millions of marketing dollars have been spent redesigning the updated Motel 6 analogy script and associated sales presentation training.  Just a thought.


----------



## scrapngen

l2trade said:


> Weeks aren't going away.  We should be able to compare week to point week sightings.  To be clear, I am told that nightly Marriott system point inventory will be primarily managed by Marriott, not II.  Marriott point owners can search for weeks with points in II if they decide to go that route.  In the coming months, I plan to do enough comparative analysis, that only a true die hard Tugger could understand and appreciate.  My wife is asleep.  She probably thinks I'm crazy for all the research and phone calls I've been making.



Well, I do appreciate the information gathering  

Sounds like some further questions (besides how trades and points will intermix) will  be how not only current resales are handled, but resales down the road. If one decides Marriott is not doomed and wants to actually add to their portfolio, how will resale weeks and resale points work? Can they convert? if it was a week and was converted is it then still a week with points? or does the conversion fee have to be re-applied? How will the MF's change over time for the deeded weeks as more and more points are sold? If everyone is grandfathered in with home resort priority, is that only if they make this change in a certain timeframe? IOW, what about a week purchased resale in the future. This person has not had the opportunity to change it to points during the rollout because he is buying years later. Can he change to points with the home resort advantage because he bought a deed?


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> This makes no sense to timeshare folks, it makes a lot of sense to Motel 6 folks.
> 
> The calendar will quickly look like Swiss Cheese - full of holes that short term folks love but 2-week folks will find intolerable.
> 
> Forget the Swiss Cheese and think Limburger cheese.



I don't see this problem with DRI, which has over 100 resorts, both managed by DRI and affiliated with THE Club. I do see this problem with HGVC which has a limited number of locations and affiliated resorts that have limited inventory. I think that Marriott, with 51 resorts at the moment, won't have an issue.


----------



## dougp26364

l2trade said:


> Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
> 1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.
> 
> 2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points.  An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.
> 
> 3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period.  Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.
> 
> 4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust.  Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell.  You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail.  The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy.  The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.
> 
> 5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.
> 
> 6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc...  Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for *nightly* hotel rentals.
> 
> 7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II.  I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made.  They will not interfere with owner deposits.
> 
> 8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past.  This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it.  The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.
> 
> Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.
> 
> The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights.  The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc.  Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts.  Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.
> 
> I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system.  I do not.  I expect this system will make things more 'fair'.  By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't.  In a word, I say *!$#@+!*.



If this is what's taken Marriott two years to come up with, it has to be one of the oddest systems I've ever seen. It seems to me that a straight points overlay system with fixed week owners electing to keep their reservation or accept points for their week would be so much simpler. Those that have floating weeks would automatically be assigned points every year for their week but, they would be assigned enough points to reserve their specific unit type each year. Why would Marriott want to cut a new road and make this more difficult than it needs to be? If it's not simple to understand, people aren't going to like it, they'll become frustrated with it and the complaints will be on. Marriott will lose it's reputation as one of the better timeshare systems to own.

On the other hand, if Marriott tanks the resale prices on weeks units, maybe down to that $1 DRI unit you see on E-bay, there will be lots of opportunities opening up on some really nice resort weeks.


----------



## dougp26364

iconnections said:


> *The New Marriott Timeshare Organization*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s official folks – the name of the new timeshare division of Marriott is “Marriott Vacation Club Destinations” which will be launched on Monday, June 21, 2010.
> The website will be: www.MarriottVacationClubDestinations.com
> 
> http://www.timesharewizard.com/marriott-vacation-club-destinations.html




The RC program is refered to as a "destination club." I wonder how closely the new Marriott program will mirror the Ritz Carlton program.


----------



## Latravel

Ha....it's starting.  Can't wait to hear the details!


----------



## PerryM

*Set phasers to stun...*



l2trade said:


> No, this ain't no Disney!  I said that in an earlier post and got challenged for going too far with my comparison to DRI.
> 
> The TRUST is for all developer owned and unsold annual inventory from Jun 17th forward.  There are loads and loads of unsold inventory from which to create this and establish a foundational point system on Day One.
> 
> Everything already owned as deeds will stay as deeds, conversion or not.  I've been assured that existing owners will not be required to turn over their deeds to the TRUST to join the new system.  IMHO, that is a very good thing for those owners.  It could be a whole lot worse.  Just take the DRI comparison deeper and you will see what I mean.



I'm trying to grasp the concept here:

Marriott's unsold inventory and ALL future inventory will stop being weeks and become Points forever

All existing inventory owned by owners phases in and out of Points forever

This sounds like something was lost in translation.

So:

Weeks is week oriented but can become daily oriented and then move back to weeks
Points is daily oriented


The reason we had to live with Friday, Saturday, and Sunday check-ins was supposedly to lighten the load on the cleaning staff.  Now it's any day a check-in and for a day or two?

This makes no sense at all - this is like the Attack of the Werewolves and it's a full moon tonight and a phase change is about to occur.

This is really going to be hard to figure out what the heck impact this has on ANYTHING starting next week.  I'm stunned.

Maybe this explains why the guy from Disney left Disney with these ideas - even Goofy has better ideas...


----------



## Clark

iconnections said:


> It is so strange that they still were pitching making exchanges with II.
> [/URL]



What's strange about that -- going through II for non-Marriott exchanges?


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> I'm trying to grasp the concept here:
> 
> Marriott's unsold inventory and ALL future inventory will stop being weeks and become Points
> 
> All existing inventory owned by owners phases in and out of Points from now on forward
> 
> This sounds like something was lost in translation.
> 
> So weeks is week oriented and Points is daily oriented.
> 
> The reason we had to live with Friday, Saturday, and Sunday check-ins was supposedly to lighten the load on the cleaning staff.  Now it's any day a check-in and for a day or two.
> 
> This makes no sense at all - this is like the Attack of the Werewolves and it's a full moon tonight.



I feel a little better now. If we're both a little perplexed by what's been posted, something just isn't right. 

I'm really at a point where I welcome seeing this new program in writing. I'm not so certain this isn't just someone having a little fun and pulling someone's leg. I just don't see Marriott cutting a new road through a jungle when there's a six lane freeway they could drive down at 100 mph.


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> To me that's exchanging "down".
> 
> I own a Bentley and enter it into a car exchange where I get to rent 2 Hondas and 2 Toyotas for a total of 4 weeks for 1 week in my Bentley.
> 
> This is my Point - exchanging down is easy, exchanging up is impossible.


No Perry, exchanging up is much easier OVERALL as well, it's just more costly so and you would be able to get less weeks overall over a period of a few years.  The system I2Trade has laid out is about the best one could hope for in that current owners get their cake and eat it too.  The changes in II exchanging will likely be the same, or nearly so, no matter what the specifics of the internal exchange and conversions end up as.



PerryM said:


> This makes no sense to timeshare folks, it makes a lot of sense to Motel 6 folks.
> 
> The calendar will quickly look like Swiss Cheese - full of holes that short term folks love but 2-week folks will find intolerable.
> 
> Forget the Swiss Cheese and think Limburger cheese.


BG does it this way successfully, so does RCI points and their member resorts, doesn't Worldmark do the same?


----------



## zam

*Marriott's new TS structure*

We attended a sales presentation at Surfwatch yesterday and were told by our sales rep that after today (Wednesday June 16), the sales center was closing down until next Monday June 21 for intensive training of the reps on the new structure of the Marriott timeshare business which premieres next week.  He then proceeded to briefly outline the elements of the new paradigm:
1) the system will be entirely point based (apparently similar to the Hilton model) - purchasers will not buy a deeded share in a single property but buy points deeded to a trust inclusive of all Marriott "destinations."
2) existing owners will be grandfathered in and continue as before but will have the option of "buying in" (for multiple week owners - $695) to have the option of participating in the new process.  This was portrayed as the best of both worlds.

The sales effort was clearly to push sales of remaining inventory at Marriott's Myrtle Beach site with 20% discounts and lowered down payment requirements - until the end of business today.


----------



## dioxide45

This should probably have been posted in the super thread.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115665


----------



## dioxide45

Shouldn't all this be in the existing thread? . We can't beat that Aruba thread in post counts if people keep starting new ones


----------



## hipslo

dioxide45 said:


> I have to agree with Doug. currently people looking to book for personal use that want prime week are competing against people wanting to book the highest demand week to plop in to II. In a point system, that all goes away. Those people exchanging are just reserving somewhere else. I would bet those in points wanting to exchange through II will get their week picked for them by Marriott.
> 
> There is now less demand for those super prime weeks and those that were shut out in the past by exchangers may actually get a week to occupy.




Except that, with no home resort priority, every single points owner, system wide, can now try and get those prime weeks, not just owners at that resort, in that season.  As a result, competition is likely to increase for the best prime weeks, not decrease.


----------



## hipslo

PerryM said:


> Don't be shocked when Marriott forbids renting your week.  It might not happen initially but the jealously won't take long and folks will demand that renting be abolished.  Marriott will just smile and forbid renting.  Of course they will continue to rent...



I am concerned about this as well, and think you may very well be correct.


----------



## rpluskota

Curious, what was the sales rep saying the benefit of not waiting was vs.purchasing on Monday.


----------



## tombo

l2trade said:


> The good points will be plentiful.  Timeshares will work more like nightly hotel reservations, except you will use points instead of cash.  And, except you will spend a huge chunk of change upfront for the privilege to commit annual ongoing MF (convert your useless cash to points - yeah).  And, except timeshares are designed to achieve maximum levels of occupancy, early on and year round.  This is unlike hotel rooms, where you can typically find availability almost anywhere last minute for all but the top spots at the top times.
> 
> On second thought, why not stick with cash?



Cash is a better idea and much more reliable than hoping to make nightly  reservations using points. Who wants to wait until the last minute hoping to reserve a night or two using points, pay extra fees to use your points, pay extra housekeeping fees for less than 7 night stays, and not be able to get your points back if your plans change when you could instead make normal Marriott  reservations on your credit card months in advance and cancel within 24 hours with no penalty if your plans change? I will stick with cash for nightly reservations too.

Points for less than a week stay is a benefit that is questionable as to who the benefit is actually for. In Marriott's survey to owners they mentioned being able to make reservations for stays of less than 7 nights using points at the 6 month mark, and single night reservations using points would be available at 30 days or less prior to check in. Does anyone think there is going to be a lot of good inventory available using these timeframes? This is mostly going to be  last minute inventory that Marriott is stuck with. It is not a benefit to points members, it is a benefit to Marriott allowing them to get rid of remaining unwanted inventory. II and RCI do the same thing at 45 days prior to check in giving cheap rental rates to entice members to take the inventory they are stuck with, and on TUG you can firesale your unrented weeks at the 60 day mark. 

What a benefit. We get to use our use expensive points to get partial weeks and days that Marriott is stuck with in their inventory, we get to pay Marriott fees to cash in our points, and we get to pay  extra housekeeping fees for stays of less than a week if we can somehow find a partial week or night that will work for us, and it is a benefit for who again?


----------



## hipslo

dougp26364 said:


> Now, let's put this in points terms. Mountainside week 52 is worth 60,000 points. Fall Williamsburg is worth 25,000 points. Spring Orlando is worth 25,000 points and summer Mountainside is worth 25,000 points. Does this seem a little more desirable for exchanging that week 52? I bet even you would have to admit that yes it's a little more fair. The week 52 Mountainsid owner would now be getting fair value for their week rather than face trading down, just because the wanted to go from a very high demand week to a location in shoulder season..



Under the current system, the week 52 ms owner could rent that week out for big bucks and use the proceeds to rent the other weeks you mention directly from owners.  Without giving up the assurance of being able to get week 52 at ms in most years, if/when they do want it.


----------



## PerryM

*I'm stumped...*

I'm speechless with the rumors - I don't understand why Marriott needs a Trust for unsold weeks and ALL future units they build/acquire. 

Can someone explain why they need a Trust for those Points?

Will they have totally different ownership rights over what we all have now?

P.S.
I feel like I've let you guys down - I tried to cook up every convoluted, crazy, insane, and just abnormal Points system I could think of.

I never even came close to what the rumor seems to be turning into - just plain weird; this sounds like Marriott incorporating timeshares into their hotel/motel business.

Can daily maid service be far behind?


----------



## PerryM

Dean said:


> No Perry, exchanging up is much easier OVERALL as well, it's just more costly so and you would be able to get less weeks overall over a period of a few years.  The system I2Trade has laid out is about the best one could hope for in that current owners get their cake and eat it too.  The changes in II exchanging will likely be the same, or nearly so, no matter what the specifics of the internal exchange and conversions end up as.
> 
> BG does it this way successfully, so does RCI points and their member resorts, *doesn't Worldmark do the same?*



NO, not in RED season - 7 days min 91 days - 13 months out.  At 90 days it drops.

Here's the link.


----------



## m61376

l2trade said:


> Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
> 
> 6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc...  Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for *nightly* hotel rentals.



Did your source indicate whether the values assigned would be based on current rental rates or just a similar type program?


----------



## tombo

PerryM said:


> I'm speechless with the rumors - I don't understand why Marriott needs a Trust for unsold weeks and ALL future units they build/acquire.
> 
> Can someone explain why they need a Trust for those Points?
> 
> Will they have totally different ownership rights over what we all have now?
> 
> P.S.
> I feel like I've let you guys down - I tried to cook up every convoluted, crazy, insane, and just abnormal Points system I could think of.
> 
> I never even came close to what the rumor seems to be turning into - just plain weird; this sounds like Marriott incorporating timeshares into their hotel/motel business.
> 
> Can daily maid service be far behind?



In several of my posts including post 2301 I said that Marriott will place all Marriott controlled inventory into points starting day one and that any new resorts will be points only resorts. I have also predicted additional housekeeping fees for any stays of less than 7 days and points useage fees every time you use points. We will see if i was correct about those and many other postulations in the near future.

From #2310:
"To jump start the points program I assume Marriott will place all developer owned weeks into points inventory, all reposessed/delinquent MF's weeks into points, and most if not all conversions will have one of the best in season weeks deposited into points inventory. This will give new points owners the best access to the best weeks proving to all skeptics that points memberships are much better than deeded weeks when exchanging. However when enough people convert to points the advantages of preferential inventory will diminish because Marriott has not actually created any new inventory when they created a points program. Then the reality will set in that you simply paid more money to have the same access to the same weeks you had before the points scam was launched."


----------



## PerryM

tombo said:


> In several of my posts including post 2301 I said that Marriott will place all Marriott controlled inventory into points starting day one and that any new resorts will be points only resorts. I have also predicted additional housekeeping fees for any stays of less than 7 days and points useage fees every time you use points. We will see if i was correct about those and many other postulations in the near future.
> 
> From #2310:
> "To jump start the points program I assume Marriott will place all developer owned weeks into points inventory, all reposessed/delinquent MF's weeks into points, and most if not all conversions will have one of the best in season weeks deposited into points inventory. This will give new points owners the best access to the best weeks proving to all skeptics that points memberships are much better than deeded weeks when exchanging. However when enough people convert to points the advantages of preferential inventory will diminish because Marriott has not actually created any new inventory when they created a points program. Then the reality will set in that you simply paid more money to have the same access to the same weeks you had before the points scam was launched."



Your ideas make sense as to how Marriott could merge everything into one.  That gives their folks instant access to every hot holiday week or weekend and yet depicting themselves as the bighearted developer who cares about all owners.

This is my theory on how RCI and RCI Points works internally - everything is just Point oriented and old fashioned weeks are internally converted to Points to make one system more efficient.

But I'm still at a loss to understand why they need a Trust - for what purpose?


----------



## Antny

*Inform current owners?*

I'm sorry if this has already been asked but when and how does Marriott intend to explain/inform the current deeded owners of the new system? Email, website or formal letter?


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## zam

The pitch was that buying in now would preserve both options: (the legacy system as they called it) and the new points system.  It sounded like if you wanted to go to your home resort each year the legacy system would be optimal.  Each system will obviously have advantages and disadvantages so being able to play in both would be the best of both worlds.

I'm most curious to see how the maintenance fee will be handled in the new system and if a legacy owner chooses to convert to the new system in a given year if it will have any impact on their maintenance fee.


----------



## potchak

Well, if legacy is still better, then resale sounds like the option


----------



## zam

Yes.... unless resale weeks aren't eligible to be converted into the new points system if one wanted to stay at another resort.  Our rep didn't discuss this (as we don't own any resale weeks) but my guess is that resale buyers will have a major disadvantage in the new system.  Also, I'd assume inventory for the legacy trades (II and internal to Marriott) will go down as the new point system consumes inventory at desirable locations... so trading outside of the new system will probably become more difficult.


----------



## thinze3

*$695*

That's actually a cheap enough buy-in price. My thought is that Marriott will be aggressive in using ROFR at sold out or nearly sold out resorts soon enough.

Resale or retail owners - watch you email boxes for enticements.


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## jlf58

last I heard, legacy weeks will still be able to be bought 




thinze3 said:


> That's actually a cheap enough buy-in price. My thought is that Marriott will be aggressive in using ROFR at sold out or nearly sold out resorts soon enough.
> 
> Resale or retail owners - watch you email boxes for enticements.


----------



## PerryM

*Tweet... tweet ...*



Antny said:


> I'm sorry if this has already been asked but when and how does Marriott intend to explain/inform the current deeded owners of the new system? Email, website or formal letter?



Probably just a Tweet - @MarriottVacClub.


----------



## Y-ASK

l2trade said:


> 3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period.  Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.


Will there be any sort of difference in cost based on if you are a resale owner?

Y-ASK


----------



## laurac260

Hi, can someone do us all a favor and post the official letter they have gotten from Marriott that details all of this out?  I haven't gotten my official letter yet, and all this speculation is driving me crazy.   Instead of weeding thru all these e-mails, posting the official information would make it much easier.  I am too new at this to even begin to grasp all this stuff that is bantering about.  

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Whirl

PerryM said:


> I'm speechless with the rumors - I don't understand why Marriott needs a Trust for unsold weeks and ALL future units they build/acquire.
> 
> Can someone explain why they need a Trust for those Points?
> 
> Will they have totally different ownership rights over what we all have now?
> 
> P.S.
> I feel like I've let you guys down - I tried to cook up every convoluted, crazy, insane, and just abnormal Points system I could think of.
> 
> I never even came close to what the rumor seems to be turning into - just plain weird; this sounds like Marriott incorporating timeshares into their hotel/motel business.
> 
> Can daily maid service be far behind?





I am staying out of all this speculation, but ahhhh the thought of daily maid service would make my timeshare stays complete...I can only dream!


----------



## Fredm

hipslo said:


> I am concerned about this as well, and think you may very well be correct.



Can't be done. It would be illegal to restrict an owner from renting their deeded interest reservation. It is part of the bundle of rights associated with real estate.


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## rpluskota

So i wonder if youwill you be able to go in and out of the points system if you a legacy owner. Was that 695.00 per week?


----------



## l2trade

dougp26364 said:


> If this is what's taken Marriott two years to come up with, it has to be one of the oddest systems I've ever seen. It seems to me that a straight points overlay system with fixed week owners electing to keep their reservation or accept points for their week would be so much simpler. Those that have floating weeks would automatically be assigned points every year for their week but, they would be assigned enough points to reserve their specific unit type each year. Why would Marriott want to cut a new road and make this more difficult than it needs to be? If it's not simple to understand, people aren't going to like it, they'll become frustrated with it and the complaints will be on. Marriott will lose it's reputation as one of the better timeshare systems to own.
> 
> On the other hand, if Marriott tanks the resale prices on weeks units, maybe down to that $1 DRI unit you see on E-bay, there will be lots of opportunities opening up on some really nice resort weeks.



Maybe you misread what I said.  Fixed/floating week owners will either choose points for that year or stick with the old floating weeks system.  Once in points, you are looking at the entire points network availability.  The only reason to switch to points just to reserve the week you already own is if you are someone like me trying to find ways to game system availability or garner extra nights - it could just as easily go the other way against you depending on demand and timing.  I did not get enough details about how many points for what.  I also do not know enough specifics about the reservation calendar windows (i.e. - what happens when each year that turns weeks reservation availability into points availability into nights availability?  I expect the answer to that question will be complex and vary depending on the ownership type of the villa weeks in question and the elections and timing (and/or lack thereof) of the owners.).  I asked numerous questions about this hypothetical scenario and my post above is a summary of the answers I got.  Tuggers have known for a long time that some weeks within a season are worth far more than others.  Marriott knows that too and wants more granular control to better balance demand.  Going forward, all Marriott will sell are points.  For week owners that upgrade into the new program, you elect to use the old system or convert your usage to points during each year.  Marriott will market this as an add-on upgrade for existing owners and not something that takes away what you already own.


----------



## laurac260

Ok, so I called Marriott Owner Services.  4 days from the official unveiling, and they have heard absolutely nothing about it.  Really?  Someone please tell me what company they have ever worked for that is getting ready to unveil a program that will turn their entire business on it's ear and yet they have provided absolutely no info, NO TRAINING to their front line folks????  

Marriott has been around way too long to run that stupidly.  Marriott is all about training programs.  There's NO WAY they would unveil this WITHOUT having their front line folks ready to answer every question they could possibly get.  My week is coming up in a month.  I plan on spending my time getting ready to ENJOY it, not getting lost in this crazy thread any longer.


----------



## l2trade

Antny said:


> I'm sorry if this has already been asked but when and how does Marriott intend to explain/inform the current deeded owners of the new system? Email, website or formal letter?



You can call Marriott Sales on Sunday, Jun 20th.  The sales reps will be trained and authorized to talk about it then.  I do not know the timing about other forms of communication, but I'm sure many of us will be hounding them if we don't see stuff quickly in writing.


----------



## dougp26364

l2trade said:


> Maybe you misread what I said.  Fixed/floating week owners will either choose points for that year or stick with the old floating weeks system.  Once in points, you are looking at the entire points network availability.  The only reason to switch to points just to reserve the week you already own is if you are someone like me trying to find ways to game system availability or garner extra nights - it could just as easily go the other way against you depending on demand and timing.  I did not get enough details about how many points for what.  I also do not know enough specifics about the reservation calendar windows (i.e. - what happens when each year that turns weeks reservation availability into points availability into nights availability?  I expect the answer to that question will be complex and vary depending on the ownership type of the villa weeks in question and the elections and timing (and/or lack thereof) of the owners.).  I asked numerous questions about this hypothetical scenario and my post above is a summary of the answers I got.  Tuggers have known for a long time that some weeks within a season are worth far more than others.  Marriott knows that too and wants more granular control to better balance demand.  Going forward, all Marriott will sell are points.  For week owners that upgrade into the new program, you elect to use the old system or convert your usage to points during each year.  Marriott will market this as an add-on upgrade for existing owners and not something that takes away what you already own.



It's an awfully odd way to accomplish something that seems so simple and has been done before. Why re-invent the wheel? Keep it simple. Switching between weeks and points just doesn't seem like the most efficient way to accomplish what should be a simple overlay program. The more complicated Marriott makes this, the less participation they're likely to have.


----------



## l2trade

Y-ASK said:


> Will there be any sort of difference in cost based on if you are a resale owner?
> 
> Y-ASK



Timeshare sales reps are not reliable sources of information about how resale owners will actually be treated, especially when stuff isn't being handed out in writing.  My contacts want to discourage resale purchases.  We will need to wait for the system roll-out on this answer.


----------



## Pro

When all this goes down, can someone answer these two questions for me:

1:  Will points members be able to bank and borrow points from one year to the next?

2:  Will points members be able to tranfer points from one member to another member?

Joe


----------



## dougp26364

laurac260 said:


> Hi, can someone do us all a favor and post the official letter they have gotten from Marriott that details all of this out?  I haven't gotten my official letter yet, and all this speculation is driving me crazy.   Instead of weeding thru all these e-mails, posting the official information would make it much easier.  I am too new at this to even begin to grasp all this stuff that is bantering about.
> 
> Thanks in advance!



There is nothing official yet and, as far as I know, no one has recieved anything official that could be posted.


----------



## dougp26364

hipslo said:


> Under the current system, the week 52 ms owner could rent that week out for big bucks and use the proceeds to rent the other weeks you mention directly from owners.  Without giving up the assurance of being able to get week 52 at ms in most years, if/when they do want it.



Sure they could but, what if other owners are like me? I'm assuming (could be wrong) that the typical timesahre owner has little to no interest in renting their own unit, then renting the units they want. It's easier and probably faster to exchange for those units. No fuss, no tax implications. Just a simple exchange.


----------



## l2trade

laurac260 said:


> Ok, so I called Marriott Owner Services.  4 days from the official unveiling, and they have heard absolutely nothing about it.  Really?  Someone please tell me what company they have ever worked for that is getting ready to unveil a program that will turn their entire business on it's ear and yet they have provided absolutely no info, NO TRAINING to their front line folks????
> 
> Marriott has been around way too long to run that stupidly.  Marriott is all about training programs.  There's NO WAY they would unveil this WITHOUT having their front line folks ready to answer every question they could possibly get.  My week is coming up in a month.  I plan on spending my time getting ready to ENJOY it, not getting lost in this crazy thread any longer.



I had to do a little more sales rep shopping for answers.  I've spoken with Marriott both in person and via phone.  I've attended quite a few sales presentations in my time and saved some contacts.  I heard much more details when I followed up using their direct personal cell phone line outside their working hours.  Since sales of the old system ends today, the incentive for any sales reps to talk more openly about it after work is effectively over.  I'm sure I will get a few more high pressure sales calls today.  When I decline, I'm sure I will have to wait until Sunday to learn more.


----------



## hipslo

Fredm said:


> Can't be done. It would be illegal to restrict an owner from renting their deeded interest reservation. It is part of the bundle of rights associated with real estate.



actually i think there is  language in the governing docs (at least at ms) to the effect that rentals are permitted so long as the rental activity isnt a "business".  who knows what that might be interpreted to mean in any given case.....


----------



## l2trade

laurac260 said:


> Hi, can someone do us all a favor and post the official letter they have gotten from Marriott that details all of this out?  I haven't gotten my official letter yet, and all this speculation is driving me crazy.   Instead of weeding thru all these e-mails, posting the official information would make it much easier.  I am too new at this to even begin to grasp all this stuff that is bantering about.
> 
> Thanks in advance!



There is no official letter.  Just lots of phone calls and loose lips from recently trained sales reps after hours, as they try to score one more sale before the final resort weeks promotion ends.


----------



## Asia2000

Based on all the rumors, does anyone know what the cost is to join the point system for a deeded week owner.  I think we all have a pretty good idea that points are coming and we can probably put our unit within 90% of the approx. point value (using a consistent base).

The big question:  How much to convert?  Is it a one time thing, or do you have to pay extra annually?


----------



## tombo

l2trade said:


> There is no official letter.  Just lots of phone calls and loose lips from recently trained sales reps after hours, as they try to score one more sale before the final resort weeks promotion ends.




So from now until the 20th, sales reps will be telling you how much better it will be to own a "Legacy" deeded week since you will have the best of both worlds. After the 20th they will be telling you all the disadvantages that come with "Legacy weeks" and how lucky you are to be able to purchase points instead of those worthless deeded weeks. Somewhere in between will lie the truth.


----------



## luvgoldns

laurac260 said:


> Ok, so I called Marriott Owner Services. 4 days from the official unveiling, and they have heard absolutely nothing about it. Really? Someone please tell me what company they have ever worked for that is getting ready to unveil a program that will turn their entire business on it's ear and yet they have provided absolutely no info, NO TRAINING to their front line folks????
> 
> Marriott has been around way too long to run that stupidly. Marriott is all about training programs. There's NO WAY they would unveil this WITHOUT having their front line folks ready to answer every question they could possibly get. My week is coming up in a month. I plan on spending my time getting ready to ENJOY it, not getting lost in this crazy thread any longer.


 

I suppose one can assume that "they" do know BUT are not supposed to tell the rest of us at this time.

ileneg


----------



## Fredm

hipslo said:


> actually i think there is  language in the governing docs (at least at ms) to the effect that rentals are permitted so long as the rental activity isnt a "business".  who knows what that might be interpreted to mean in any given case.....



I believe "business" applies to owners of 12 or more weeks.


----------



## hipslo

dougp26364 said:


> Sure they could but, what if other owners are like me? I'm assuming (could be wrong) that the typical timesahre owner has little to no interest in renting their own unit, then renting the units they want. It's easier and probably faster to exchange for those units. No fuss, no tax implications. Just a simple exchange.



you are probably right.  to me, it would be worth a little effort to do what i want and not give up my (very valuable) fixed week home resort priority.  others will likely be willing to give up those valuable rights in exchange for simplicity.


----------



## rsackett

What do you think would happen if marriott ever drops a resort?  In the new system Marriott will own a lot of deeds and need to sell those.  I would think that would be a BIG incentive Not to drop any resort in the future.

Ray


----------



## tombo

dougp26364 said:


> Sure they could but, what if other owners are like me? I'm assuming (could be wrong) that the typical timesahre owner has little to no interest in renting their own unit, then renting the units they want. It's easier and probably faster to exchange for those units. No fuss, no tax implications. Just a simple exchange.



But like exchanging often you can use rental income to really trade up, or to make profit, or both. If you have a prime Marriott week reserved and rent it for $2500 or more, you can often turn around and rent the same week in the same resort for $1500 or less by shopping around on different web sites. Why let II have your prime week when you can use it to vacation at a different prime week with cash in your pocket? If it doesn't rent fairly quickly you can always deposit it with II later.

In the past when the economy was better you could rent a Hawaii week to someone, take that rental cash and pay to rent a week from someone else, pay for your air fare, and have a little spending money left over. It is very hard to do in this economy but was fairly easy to do in the past and hopefully will be again in the future.

To vacation at the same or similar resort with $500 to $1000 cash in your pocket is worth a little extra effort to many, myself included. You can always exchange a prime week if it doesn't rent, but you can't rent it after you gave it to II.


----------



## l2trade

dougp26364 said:


> I feel a little better now. If we're both a little perplexed by what's been posted, something just isn't right.
> 
> I'm really at a point where I welcome seeing this new program in writing. I'm not so certain this isn't just someone having a little fun and pulling someone's leg. I just don't see Marriott cutting a new road through a jungle when there's a six lane freeway they could drive down at 100 mph.



I trust the information I was told and in turn shared here to the best of my ability.  I tried hard to summarize, so that I would not disclose who I spoke with.  I do not want to get any Marriott employee in trouble.  If the answers from all my questions to them that I believe to be true and shared here are later proven false when the system rolls out, then I will be    

I apologize in advance if any leak details I shared are later proven false.  Please know I feel confident in what I shared.  I take personal pride in trying to get everything right.  I know I will be ridiculed and ignored shortly if I got duped by the sales staff.

Until June 20th, this thread is for employee leaks, rumors and speculative discussion.  If you want official stuff in writing, you will have to wait.  Hopefully, we will start a new TUG thread for the official roll out.  Let's remember, this ain't no Watergate!  I'm not holding any leaked official documents.


----------



## scrapngen

tombo said:


> So from now until the 20th, sales reps will be telling you how much better it will be to own a "Legacy" deeded week since you will have the best of both worlds. After the 20th they will be telling you all the disadvantages that come with "Legacy weeks" and how lucky you are to be able to purchase points instead of those worthless deeded weeks. Somewhere in between will lie the truth.



Totally agree with you here. It will be harder to get good info about resales from the sales dept, as they will continue to bash them. I'm sure they will say things about buying those legacy weeks that are not true, and smart TUGGERs will have to look through the documents to see what it real or not. Could very well be that they have no way to "upgrade" those, but to me, that doesn't make business sense. So the question is - as with all of this - what will it cost? and what are the limitations/restrictions?


----------



## l2trade

tombo said:


> So from now until the 20th, sales reps will be telling you how much better it will be to own a "Legacy" deeded week since you will have the best of both worlds. After the 20th they will be telling you all the disadvantages that come with "Legacy weeks" and how lucky you are to be able to purchase points instead of those worthless deeded weeks. Somewhere in between will lie the truth.



You are correct.  I have received both sales pitches at length.  I asked numerous questions for comparative analysis to see if I should buy now or wait.  There are pros and cons on each side.  Only today allows me to buy the old system (retail - LMAO) with the option to wait and rescind.  Of course, the sales rep wants to sell to me today, but also doesn't want to talk me out of buying Sunday's product if I don't move fast enough.  For the record, I will do neither. 

If Marriott wants my business, it will be a legacy resale deed.  I can afford to wait a year or two to see how all this plays out.  I own too many timeshares already.  My main interest in all of this is to understand the implications of the change well enough, so I know how it impacts II availability for me as a non-Marriott owner exchanging in.  I was planning to dump my Starwood timeshares and switch to Marriott last fall, but I heard the early elusive rumors direct from the mouth of a Marriott Sales VP at the time.


----------



## scrapngen

l2trade said:


> I trust the information I was told and in turn shared here to the best of my ability.  I tried hard to summarize, so that I would not disclose who I spoke with.  I do not want to get any Marriott employee in trouble.  If the answers from all my questions to them that I believe to be true and shared here are later proven false when the system rolls out, then I will be
> 
> I apologize in advance if any leak details I shared are later proven false.  Please know I feel confident in what I shared.  I take personal pride in trying to get everything right.  I know I will be ridiculed and ignored shortly if I got duped by the sales staff.
> 
> Until June 20th, this thread is for employee leaks, rumors and speculative discussion.  If you want official stuff in writing, you will have to wait.  Hopefully, we will start a new TUG thread for the official roll out.  Let's remember, this ain't no Watergate!  I'm not holding any leaked official documents.



You have achieved much on your own and put yourself out there asking the questions and openly sharing. Noone should ridicule you for that, IMO!! Obviously, this is not going to be straightforward, so the devil is in the details. 

And even if the official written structure says one thing, the question is still, how will Marriott actually implement? The 13/12 month rule seems to be implemented somewhat loosely, allowing across resorts, and according to some posts, not quite consecutive reservations (fri start and sun start) And it is for use only, but clearly that is not checked or enforced. So I suspect that this program will be tweaked somewhat within a year or two if it doesn't actually work the way the designers envision. 

It's possible that certain things will be allowed that aren't quite to the letter of the contract to keep the high multiple week, converted, all developer customers happy. Those people already seem to be able to claim their specific #, best view room consistently while others get the best of the leftovers, so I'm sure they will continue to be treated well. And that is logical in any company - Donald Trump will be treated a bit nicer than I will and will never be given a parking lot view The good companies will make sure that everyone is treated with equal respect, even if they don't all get the gift basket.  But if those parking lot views that currently go to exchangers or the lowest on the totem pole might now go to reticent Marriott weeks owners? That would be intolerable.


----------



## SueDonJ

l2trade said:


> I trust the information I was told and in turn shared here to the best of my ability. ...  Until June 20th, this thread is for employee leaks, rumors and speculative discussion.



The thing that's odd about all the info you got is that you've apparently found a few sales reps who are spilling secrets to you left and right - prior to their training sessions - while pretty much every other seasoned TUGger with connections hasn't been able to make the sales reps dance at all.  The "inside" info that has been shared for months by DaveM and Fletch has been greeted with a healthy dose of skepticism; it's no surprise that your info is now getting the same treatment.

That said, every bit of info shared here is another tidbit to dissect, and that's not a bad thing.  (But if what you've shared turns out to be THE THING, well, that is a bad thing IMO.)


----------



## melroseman

I2Trade:  Thanks for what seems to be the most "reliable" information yet, and information that should make some people feel a little more comfortable.

Did any of your questions involve if EOY units will be included??


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

Of course internal trades with deeded weeks have been done for years for those owners who own in Marriott's Florida Club.

That said, does anyone have any knowledge as to the status of The Florida Club in light of the new changes coming on June 20th?

Or, any speculation about whether The Florida Club will still even exist in light of the soon to be available internal Marriott to Marriott trading?


----------



## PerryM

*Practical Joker salesrep?*



l2trade said:


> Maybe you misread what I said.  Fixed/floating week owners will either choose points for that year or stick with the old floating weeks system.  Once in points, you are looking at the entire points network availability.  The only reason to switch to points just to reserve the week you already own is if you are someone like me trying to find ways to game system availability or garner extra nights - it could just as easily go the other way against you depending on demand and timing.  I did not get enough details about how many points for what.  I also do not know enough specifics about the reservation calendar windows (i.e. - what happens when each year that turns weeks reservation availability into points availability into nights availability?  I expect the answer to that question will be complex and vary depending on the ownership type of the villa weeks in question and the elections and timing (and/or lack thereof) of the owners.).  I asked numerous questions about this hypothetical scenario and my post above is a summary of the answers I got.  Tuggers have known for a long time that some weeks within a season are worth far more than others.  Marriott knows that too and wants more granular control to better balance demand.  Going forward, all Marriott will sell are points.  For week owners that upgrade into the new program, you elect to use the old system or convert your usage to points during each year.  Marriott will market this as an add-on upgrade for existing owners and not something that takes away what you already own.



I sure hope your source doesn't read TUG and this is a little payback for all my bashing - this was all a practical joke to get back at us....

P.S.
Because so far this sounds like Marriott asked a 5th grade class to design a new way to drive owners mad...


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> Shouldn't all this be in the existing thread? . We can't beat that Aruba thread in post counts if people keep starting new ones



That is very very funny!!!  I'm glad I'm not the only one counting down to Aruba!


----------



## DanCali

Fredm said:


> Can't be done. It would be illegal to restrict an owner from renting their deeded interest reservation. It is part of the bundle of rights associated with real estate.



But they could restrict the points owners from renting, no?


----------



## winger

I just signed up for the Thursday, 24 June at 7 p.m. GMT webinar.

Hmmm, what time is 7PM GMT ?  I am here in California.


----------



## Ann in CA

melroseman said:


> I2Trade:  Thanks for what seems to be the most "reliable" information yet, and information that should make some people feel a little more comfortable.
> 
> Did any of your questions involve if EOY units will be included??



My husband and I attended a presentation last week in Arizona.  We were told that there will be no more EOY weeks after the new program takes place.  That is why they are selling out all the Marriott EOY weeks.  (This only came out after we did not buy an annual gold or platinum weel, so, they had a super duper deal for us on an EOY platinum)  

Right up front I told the sales rep that we would not buy unless we knew how the new points program would impact current owners.  He got a blank expression and said "What new program?"   However, I outlined what we were concerned about, and eventually he had to acknowledge that he could not tell us anything as he'd like to keep his job.  (We'd heard that before)   

However, by kind of answering the MANY various questions I had, without directly saying so, he essentially let me glean that there will be no more deeded weeks, that there will be no more EOY weeks  ( I could not detect how that would impact current EOY however, but don't see how they could exclude them)


----------



## banquopack

In hanging out with a head dude on Maui last week, sounds like internal exchanges will be completely without II (even with your deeded week).   Their sales center was changing over to the Ritz program, with a new Marriott Destinations banner hung near the front.  

He also mentioned the new program will essentially translate to a 50-100% increase in maintenance fees if you change over to the points.


----------



## zam

rpluskota said:


> So i wonder if youwill you be able to go in and out of the points system if you a legacy owner. Was that 695.00 per week?



The sales rep told me it would be $595 for 1 week or $695 for all weeks (if you own multiple)... a one time fee and then you will be able to choose to opt-in or opt-out each year without another fee like that.


----------



## DanCali

*Thinking of converting to points?*

click here for a glimpse into the future of II exchanges.


----------



## rickandcindy23

> He also mentioned the new program will essentially translate to a 50-100% increase in maintenance fees if you change over to the points.



Then why would anyone do it?  That makes no sense at all.  Are they going to say that you would double your value with the points? 

Maybe Marriott is determined to drop the resale value of their product to nearly zero, so they can ROFR everything and get all inventory back at zero $ cost.


----------



## winger

banquopack said:


> ....
> He also mentioned the new program will essentially translate to a *50-100% increase in maintenance fees* if you change over to the points.


So, who is smoking what?  Do they want existing, deeded customers to convert to the new points system, or WHAT ?


----------



## banquopack

There's obviously enough new changes and tweeks on the current that all the sales guys were walking around like zombies.  


They had training every morning and afternoon.  Deprogram - Reprogram  
And a few were VERY grumpy.  Perhaps they have no idea how in the world they are going to sell this new 'thing'.


----------



## brigechols

winger said:


> So, who is smoking what?  Do they want existing, deeded customers to convert to the new points system, or WHAT ?



MVCI sales people smoking Marriottjuana :rofl:


----------



## davidvel

hipslo said:


> Except that, with no home resort priority, every single points owner, system wide, can now try and get those prime weeks, not just owners at that resort, in that season.  As a result, competition is likely to increase for the best prime weeks, not decrease.



This would not be legal according to the governing documents.


----------



## l2trade

melroseman said:


> I2Trade:  Thanks for what seems to be the most "reliable" information yet, and information that should make some people feel a little more comfortable.
> 
> Did any of your questions involve if EOY units will be included??



There are no more home resorts, no EOY, no seasons, no lockoffs, no one bedroom versus two bedrooms...  Only existing owners retain actual deeds like that to a specific property.  The TRUST sells points backed up by a portfolio of unsold deeds from many resorts.  The MF for points is based on the TRUST holdings.  The MF for legacy owners is the same old MF formula for the resort they still own.  I *assume* this means that some legacy resort weeks may be a better $/point deal than the TRUST, while others might not be.  The devil is in the details on that and it may take a long time and a few years worth of annual dues to predict which is the better resale investment.  It is reassuring that Marriott will *NOT* require owners to give up their home resort deeds in exchange for TRUST points.  I feared a system where the TRUST gobbles up the legacy deeds over time.  I've been told many times that that is NOT the plan.  Existing owners will only exchange the usage year for points, not the deed.  Whew!!! 

Points can be used for all the above, plus I was told it can be used for nightly reservations and even spend extra points to guarantee stuff like a specific room view type where one could not guarantee that request before.  I did not get enough answers about the room view type example to know anything more about how or if that will actually work.


----------



## davidvel

laurac260 said:


> Ok, so I called Marriott Owner Services.  4 days from the official unveiling, and they have heard absolutely nothing about it.  Really?  Someone please tell me what company they have ever worked for that is getting ready to unveil a program that will turn their entire business on it's ear and yet they have provided absolutely no info, NO TRAINING to their front line folks????


If it is set up as envisioned, there would have to be a separate division to handle all the "points" customer service, at least for a while. The regular Owner services would still be doing the same thing they always have: helping owners reserve their weeks according to the governing documents.


----------



## melroseman

Oopps...sorry, I meant will existing EOY owners have the same option to switch to the point system on a semi-annual basis and then back again?


----------



## davidvel

PerryM said:


> But I'm still at a loss to understand why they need a Trust - for what purpose?


I don't think a trust is technically necessary to implement the system as proposed, but it must be understood that  any "new system" MUST BE AN OVERLAY to the existing deeded interests/governing documents. You cannot simply do away with property rights as some have suggested, and it would be impossible to re-write all those deeds, etc. even if everyone agreed to it. Trusts are used all the time to gain control over property interests. 

Some posts suggest there will not be trust, and it does not appear necessary (although a $695 fee seems to be in the ballpark for a deed closing). If there is no trust, they could simply reach agreement with the owner to deposit their reserved week into the points system (exactly as II, redweek, ans RCI, do.)


----------



## Fredm

DanCali said:


> But they could restrict the points owners from renting, no?



Maybe. Depends on the terms. We don't know enough yet.


----------



## l2trade

To be clear, in the past a salesperson would gradually move to pitching an EOY silver season, studio, garbage can view, etc - in order to get to the lowest purchase price and annual MF.  Going forward, this same salesperson will promise the entry level prospect the dream of getting an Hawaiian 2 bedroom 4th of July week, but sell the minimum intro points package.  This person will discover it takes multiple years of point savings to score just one night - they may end up settling for an EOY in a studio at Marriott Desert Canyon Villas, but heck, they may be able to score that 4th of July week.  ;-)


----------



## banquopack

It was funny, I talked to several Marriott guys in the last two weeks while in Hawaii and when I specifically asked about the new system they got this glazed look - what are you talking about. 

When I shared a few concerns and details they were quite surprised I even had heard a hint of this.  The keep-it-secret programming must be strong.

The twice daily programming/deprogramming training they were all in tells me the combination of the two may be hard to keep straight!  A 100% new system would be much easier to learn for the sales guys.


----------



## rsackett

banquopack said:


> ...He also mentioned the new program will essentially translate to a 50-100% increase in maintenance fees if you change over to the points.




Boy, I sure hope this is true!  The resale price for my OLD weeks would be much higher!

Ray


----------



## l2trade

davidvel said:


> I don't think a trust is technically necessary to implement the system as proposed, but it must be understood that  any "new system" MUST BE AN OVERLAY to the existing deeded interests/governing documents. You cannot simply do away with property rights as some have suggested, and it would be impossible to re-write all those deeds, etc. even if everyone agreed to it. Trusts are used all the time to gain control over property interests.
> 
> Some posts suggest there will not be trust, and it does not appear necessary (although a $695 fee seems to be in the ballpark for a deed closing). If there is no trust, they could simply reach agreement with the owner to deposit their reserved week into the points system (exactly as II, redweek, ans RCI, do.)



I am told the TRUST is for unsold inventory and how Marriott plans to sell interest in that inventory going forward.  It is one method to legally establish a fixed value points bank of developer owned inventory as the foundation of the new point system.  Again, it is what Marriott will do for all unsold timeshare resort inventory on Jun 17th forward.  Marriott reached the conclusion that they could not sell individual deeds at the prices and speed with which they need to disposition them without upsetting existing owners.  Marriott also wanted a simpler way to market to a new audience that stays in Marriott hotels and does not travel a week at a time or plan so far in advance.  Marriott is well aware that they do not want to piss off their existing, enormous owner base.  The recent mistakes made by other companies are well known to them.


----------



## rsackett

l2trade said:


> I am told the TRUST is for unsold inventory and how Marriott plans to sell interest in that inventory going forward.  It is one method to legally establish a fixed value points bank of developer owned inventory as the foundation of the new point system.  Again, it is what Marriott will do for all unsold timeshare resort inventory on Jun 17th forward.  Marriott reached the conclusion that they could not sell individual deeds at the prices and speed with which they need to disposition them without upsetting existing owners.  Marriott also wanted a simpler way to market to a new audience that stays in Marriott hotels and does not travel a week at a time or plan so far in advance.  Marriott is well aware that they do not want to piss off their existing, enormous owner base.  The recent mistakes made by other companies are well known to them.



So, are you saying that when Marriott exercises ROFR on a week it will NOT become part of the trust? Will Marriott still sell those as deeded weeks with an option to use points?  If so than Marriott will still be selling deeded weeks, just not new deeded weeks.

Ray


----------



## davidvel

l2trade said:


> I am told the TRUST is for unsold inventory and how Marriott plans to sell interest in that inventory going forward.  It is one method to legally establish a fixed value points bank of developer owned inventory as the foundation of the new point system.  Again, it is what Marriott will do for all unsold timeshare resort inventory on Jun 17th forward.  Marriott reached the conclusion that they could not sell individual deeds at the prices and speed with which they need to disposition them without upsetting existing owners.  Marriott also wanted a simpler way to market to a new audience that stays in Marriott hotels and does not travel a week at a time or plan so far in advance.  Marriott is well aware that they do not want to piss off their existing, enormous owner base.  The recent mistakes made by other companies are well known to them.


That makes sense as a model to manage all those weeks collectively. I expect they woud transfer any ROFRd weeks as well, if they ever reinstitute that.


----------



## SueDonJ

I wonder how they'd handle the developer inventory that's bulk-banked now into II, and if there will be point bargains in their system similar to what's available now during flexchange in II?


----------



## SueDonJ

davidvel said:


> That makes sense as a model to manage all those weeks collectively. I expect they woud transfer any ROFRd weeks as well, if they ever reinstitute that.



As well as any weeks they collect through foreclosures, m/f defaults, equity upsells, etc...?


----------



## bwenzel

I just have to chime in here and say that I really don't have much interest in points.  We very much enjoy staying at our resorts for week long intervals and generally go on vacation for at least two weeks straight to minimize are greatest vacation costs, travel to get there.  

I have no interest in paying fees to convert to points to I have the flexibility to pay more in travel costs to stay at a timeshare resort for a shorter stay period.  We sold our DVC points to get into Marriott's deeded weeks program and don't regret it for one moment!

As long as I'm not punished for keeping my deeded weeks and see my exchange opportunities limited, I can't see a scenario when I want to covert to points.  Besides, we exchange sometimes, but absolutely love where and when we own and would have no problem going there every year!

Bill


----------



## banquopack

rsackett said:


> So, are you saying that when Marriott exercises ROFR on a week it will NOT become part of the trust? Will Marriott still sell those as deeded weeks with an option to use points?  If so than Marriott will still be selling deeded weeks, just not new deeded weeks.
> 
> Ray



That was my understanding of what the program.  I think the sales people will be happy to have a deed to pull out of their pocket when somebody knows how risky a point system can be (both for reservation sake and devaluation over time) and just wants to stay in 'x' location every year.


----------



## taffy19

dioxide45 said:


> Shouldn't all this be in the existing thread? . We can't beat that Aruba thread in post counts if people keep starting new ones


Moderator, please move the thread.


----------



## l2trade

banquopack said:


> It was funny, I talked to several Marriott guys in the last two weeks while in Hawaii and when I specifically asked about the new system they got this glazed look - what are you talking about.
> 
> When I shared a few concerns and details they were quite surprised I even had heard a hint of this.  The keep-it-secret programming must be strong.
> 
> The twice daily programming/deprogramming training they were all in tells me the combination of the two may be hard to keep straight!  A 100% new system would be much easier to learn for the sales guys.



You cannot ask when others may be listening.  I tried onsite a few weeks back.  It was a funny response.  I was in a casual setting outside and leisurely walking  past two sales and marketing employees.  The first, more senior looking employee, immediately gave me a blank stare and denied any knowledge of anything changing.  The other, younger guy, chimed in quickly too blurting out that yes, he knows about it.  Then the older guy looked at the younger guy.  He got that stare like, 'ooh, you are in trouble!'.  Then, the younger guy quickly shut up and told me he can't say anything about it.  :hysterical: 

The bulk of the staff were only privy to rumors prior to the initial training meetings last week.  I got most of my info the past two days, that is, post staff training.


----------



## DanCali

iconnections said:


> Moderator, please move the thread.



Are you concerned it's stealing posts from the other thread so Aruba may not be passed after all?

I'm actually in favor of a new thread once the Speculation period is over  until then - catch Aruba if you can!


----------



## l2trade

rsackett said:


> So, are you saying that when Marriott exercises ROFR on a week it will NOT become part of the trust? Will Marriott still sell those as deeded weeks with an option to use points?  If so than Marriott will still be selling deeded weeks, just not new deeded weeks.
> 
> Ray



I am not positive on the answer to this, but I asked the question and got a somewhat muddy response.  I believe ROFR will get transferred into the TRUST going forward.  Sales reps do not like to talk openly about resale related topics with a prospect other than to strongly discourage it, truth being told or not.


----------



## banquopack

l2trade said:


> You cannot ask when others may be listening.  I tried onsite a few weeks back.  It was a funny response.  I was in a casual setting outside and leisurely walking  past two sales and marketing employees.  The first, more senior looking employee, immediately gave me a blank stare and denied any knowledge of anything changing.  The other, younger guy, chimed in quickly too blurting out that yes, he knows about it.  Then the older guy looked at the younger guy.  He got that stare like, 'ooh, you are in trouble!'.  Then, the younger guy quickly shut up and told me he can't say anything about it.  :hysterical:
> 
> The bulk of the staff were only privy to rumors prior to the initial training meetings last week.  I got most of my info the past two days, that is, post staff training.




Yep, I was there 3 days ago - they were nearing the end of their first week in training.  The secluded alcove was best for info 

The annoying guy at the start of my trip just went on about how he knew all about TUG and how misguided and off EVERYTHING was.  I don't think so, buddy!


----------



## taffy19

banquopack said:


> In hanging out with a head dude on Maui last week, sounds like internal exchanges will be completely without II (even with your deeded week). Their sales center was changing over to the Ritz program, with a new Marriott Destinations banner hung near the front.
> 
> He also mentioned the new program will essentially translate to a 50-100% increase in maintenance fees if you change over to the points.


How can you not expect the maintenance fees going up when people can check in and out every day? They have to have more cleaning staff and it will cost you wear and tear to the condos.

The systeme will be more flexible because you can travel to a certain destination and stay in a Marriott condo or a hotel with the new point system.

Marriott recently received a reward for their super duper reservation system that is ready for global growth so the program must be very sophisticated and can handle all the challenges that we are wondering about, I hope.


----------



## taffy19

DanCali said:


> Are you concerned it's stealing posts from the other thread so Aruba may not be passed after all?
> 
> I'm actually in favor of a new thread once the Speculation period is over  until then - catch Aruba if you can!


There were twoTUGgers who liked it to be in the old thread and that's fine with me.

I agree with you that we should start a brand new thread once the new program has been announced *officially*. I also noticed that the long thead had changed name but it sounds better than before.


----------



## l2trade

banquopack said:


> Yep, I was there 3 days ago - they were nearing the end of their first week in training.  The secluded alcove was best for info
> 
> The annoying guy at the start of my trip just went on about how he knew all about TUG and how misguided and off EVERYTHING was.  I don't think so, buddy!



Can you add to the details I've shared thus far?  

BTW - I enjoy attending presentations to help train and educate the sales staff.     It is my public service for the legions of short term tour sales guides working alongside the much smaller world of sales folks that actually can make a living at this.  Quite often, I recognize folks from years past, and often remember their faces from tours at competitor brands.  My wealth of knowledge sometimes pisses sales reps off.  (BTW - I humbly admit that my wealth of knowledge is just child's play compared to many other TUGGERS here!)  Other times the sales manager comes over and jokes about offering me a job.  One time, the sales manager seemed really serious about it - he wanted to stop the presentation and hire me on the spot.  Yeah right, like I'm gonna quit my high paying job to go work for peanuts lying and ripping people off.  "Dude, this ain't no job interview!" is what I felt like saying.  "This is an obsessive hobby and analytical research to learn how to best game the system for crying out loud!"  Instead, I just smiled and thanked him for the offer. :rofl:

PS - There goes my future timeshare sales career.  I just made myself unemployable.  :hysterical:


----------



## l2trade

banquopack said:


> That was my understanding of what the program.  I think the sales people will be happy to have a deed to pull out of their pocket when somebody knows how risky a point system can be (both for reservation sake and devaluation over time) and just wants to stay in 'x' location every year.



We walked away with different understandings on this point.  I cannot believe with certainty that there won't be some exceptions at the retail 'ROFR/resale' purchase level.  So, speculatively speaking, I am inclined to strongly agree with you.  However, I was told again and again and again that Marriott will no longer sell anything but points from the TRUST.  Time will tell how true that claim is and what exceptions, if any, exist.


----------



## jlf58

Think highly of yourself, don't you ? Many of the sales people make more than you.. I can assure you of that .. 



l2trade said:


> Can you add to the details I've shared thus far?
> 
> BTW - I enjoy attending presentations to help train and educate the sales staff.     It is my public service for the legions of short term tour sales guides working alongside the much smaller world of sales folks that actually can make a living at this.  Quite often, I recognize folks from years past, and often remember their faces from tours at competitor brands.  My wealth of knowledge sometimes pisses sales reps off.  (BTW - I humbly admit that my wealth of knowledge is just child's play compared to many other TUGGERS here!)  Other times the sales manager comes over and jokes about offering me a job.  One time, the sales manager seemed really serious about it - he wanted to stop the presentation and hire me on the spot.  Yeah right, like I'm gonna quit my high paying job to go work for peanuts lying and ripping people off.  "Dude, this ain't no job interview!" is what I felt like saying.  "This is an obsessive hobby and analytical research to learn how to best game the system for crying out loud!"  Instead, I just smiled and thanked him for the offer. :rofl:
> 
> PS - There goes my future timeshare sales career.  I just made myself unemployable.  :hysterical:


----------



## gravitar

Fletch said:


> Think highly of yourself, don't you ? Many of the sales people make more than you.. I can assure you of that ..



wow


----------



## RedDogSD

Fletch said:


> Think highly of yourself, don't you ? Many of the sales people make more than you.. I can assure you of that ..



Uhhhh, I doubt it.  How much do you think they make?  I would be very surprised to see any of them that make much over $100,000/year and those guys are few and far between.  I doubt there are any $250,000/year Timeshare salespeople.


----------



## l2trade

Fletch said:


> Think highly of yourself, don't you ? Many of the sales people make more than you.. I can assure you of that ..



This has nothing to do with my self esteem and/or lack thereof.  Most people who try timeshare sales simply don't make it.  I know I would fall in that camp.  The sales people who make more than me have talents and do things I won't.  I understand that.  From reading other threads about timeshare sales, I believe my salaried non-sales job pays much more than all but the best sales reps who can actually last working in the business.  I am sure I probably earn less money than many other TUGGERS here do too.  I am not a doctor, lawyer, business owner, manager, etc...  I am just a lowly peon with a job.  When I say highly paid, I am comparing myself to salary ranges of employees I can most relate myself with.  After all, saving money while taking many high quality vacations is my top priority with my timeshare ownership strategies.  When choosing between flexibility and savings, I choose savings almost every time...  Were I to take a job selling timeshares, I am sure I wouldn't last long.  The pay is commission based.  I am extremely analytical and would scare most would be retail buyers away from paying full price by sharing facts, details and the truth.


----------



## DanCali

Fletch said:


> Think highly of yourself, don't you ? Many of the sales people make more than you.. I can assure you of that ..



True or not, this post is somewhat obnoxious - and it's not the first one... 
(I actually have a tough skin when it comes to these things, but I couldn't help noticing the trend)



Fletch said:


> Your comments are just plain dumb. keep it secret ? This is hardly a secret...





Fletch said:


> gee, thanks John. Didn't your Momma teach you if you don't have nothing nice to say about someone, don't say anything at all  ?
> If you want to trash people, what about those HOA people who rip people off yearly





Fletch said:


> Than your sources stink. I heard it straight for a person who used to work there. Oh yeah, that was me.


----------



## GregT

Fletch said:


> Think highly of yourself, don't you ? Many of the sales people make more than you.. I can assure you of that ..



Fletch, this is an odd post, and out of character for you?  I'm sure it's lost in the electronic translation, but this reads more negatively than I'm sure was intended.

Let's just all be friends, speculate some more on the new system, and pass Aruba.


----------



## taffy19

PerryM said:


> I'm speechless with the rumors - I don't understand why Marriott needs a Trust for unsold weeks and ALL future units they build/acquire.
> 
> Can someone explain why they need a Trust for those Points?
> 
> Will they have totally different ownership rights over what we all have now?
> 
> P.S.
> I feel like I've let you guys down - I tried to cook up every convoluted, crazy, insane, and just abnormal Points system I could think of.
> 
> I never even came close to what the rumor seems to be turning into - just plain weird; this sounds like Marriott incorporating timeshares into their hotel/motel business.
> 
> Can daily maid service be far behind?


I agree with you that Marriott is incorporating timeshares into their hotel/motel business as their very sophisticated reservation system can handle this and occupancy rate will improve with everything combined plus it gives the traveler more choice at what type of accommodation to stay en route to their destination.

Marriott wants a trust so that they have total control over the reservation system and the reason that they are going over to points is that all other major name brand developers have this system already. Most people like the idea of flexibility of shorter stays.

I am very glad that we have the choice to opt in and out of the point system every year but not lose the benefits of our original deed, if I understand this right.

I wished they had made the conversion fees lower for a one week owner like $295 plus $100 more for each additional week up to $695. The yearly fees will be the same just like it is with II.

With this new system a fixed platinum plus week definitely has advantages over a regular floating week as you know that you will always get this platinum plus week again if you decide to use your week and not use points to go somewhere else. The extra price was worth it after all. These re-sale weeks will definitely hold their value.


----------



## jlf58

really ? yet this was not ?
Some TUGers need to get a life. BTW many top salespeople make over $250,000

quit my high paying job to go work for peanuts lying and ripping people off




DanCali said:


> True or not, this post is somewhat obnoxious - and it's not the first one...
> (I actually have a tough skin when it comes to these things, but I couldn't help noticing the trend)


----------



## jlf58

Most get fired if they don't make that much ... 



RedDogSD said:


> Uhhhh, I doubt it.  How much do you think they make?  I would be very surprised to see any of them that make much over $100,000/year and those guys are few and far between.  I doubt there are any $250,000/year Timeshare salespeople.


----------



## rsackett

So far I have not read any leaked info that Marriott is punishing resale buyers or rewarding loyal retail customers.  Or out to kill resale prices for that mater.

Ray


----------



## mclyne

*Aruba*



GregT said:


> Fletch, this is an odd post, and out of character for you?  I'm sure it's lost in the electronic translation, but this reads more negatively than I'm sure was intended.
> 
> Let's just all be friends, speculate some more on the new system, and pass Aruba.



Hi,

I am new to the threads and am learning a lot for all of you. Every so often someone writes about the , "Aruba" thread. Can anyone tell me how to get on it? Thank you


----------



## l2trade

rsackett said:


> So far I have not read any leaked info that Marriott is punishing resale buyers or rewarding loyal retail customers.  Or out to kill resale prices for that mater.
> 
> Ray



Nor have I heard that from any of the people I've spoken with.  Time will tell how exactly Marriott will treat resale buyers going forward.  Hopefully, there is no difference.


----------



## SueDonJ

mclyne said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am new to the threads and am learning a lot for all of you. Every so often someone writes about the , "Aruba" thread. Can anyone tell me how to get on it? Thank you



Marriott Aruba Ocean Club Owners Being Ripped Off By Marriott - READ IF AN OWNER

Be afraid.  Be very afraid.


----------



## PerryM

l2trade said:


> Nor have I heard that from any of the people I've spoken with.  Time will tell how exactly Marriott will treat resale buyers going forward.  Hopefully, there is no difference.



Marriott is to sell Points - there is no deed anymore - is this a RTU by any chance?

If not, when folks need to sell their Points what do they sell? Points.  So will Points be sold on eBay and weeks too?

And the resale buyer, do they inherit all the rights and benefits of the sold Points or is there another class of Resale Points which lack some goodies?

I don't know if we will know until the system is released.


----------



## BocaBum99

Fletch said:


> really ? yet this was not ?
> Some TUGers need to get a life. BTW many salespeople make over $250,000. When I was with MArriott, I hade ONE year that I didn't.
> 
> 
> quit my high paying job to go work for peanuts lying and ripping people off



I know you know what I am about to say, but others may not.  

The full picture on timeshare sales at the resorts is that it is a winner take all profession.   Commission plans heavily favor those who make sales and quickly weed out those who don't.   The plans are filled with bonus accelerators where your commission rate depends on the total sales you make for the period.  If you make a lot of sales in a given month, you make a lot more money on a percentage basis.  In addition, if you make a sale, you get the next tour faster.  Then, you can get a couple tours earlier in the day and leave early.  It's a beautiful business for those who do it well.

So, on a sales floor, there will be a handful of top sales guys who make a ton of money.  And, the vast majority make around $40-80k or quickly get washed out.  When you work on 100% commission, you sell or you die.


----------



## davidvel

PerryM said:


> Marriott is to sell Points - there is no deed anymore - is this a RTU by any chance?


No. Except for any completely new resorts (if any), the deeds will remain. 

We'll have to wait and see if they will be owned by Marriott, or more likely in a trust as suggested above.


----------



## taffy19

rsackett said:


> So far I have not read any leaked info that Marriott is punishing resale buyers or rewarding loyal retail customers. Or out to kill resale prices for that mater.
> 
> Ray


I never wanted to believe that their plan was to punish re-sale buyers or try to hurt re-sale values on purpose so that they can pick up deeds for next to nothing when they start exercising the ROFR again. That would hurt the company eventually when people find out immediately, within the rescission time, that values are practically nothing the moment they have bought. Keeping the re-sale values up would make more sense and also with the new point system.

I also believe that the more points someone has that it may come with some extra perks. A better view or making reservations earlier like they were able to do before. Most companies have perks for their best customers but they cannot violate the basic right that came with the original deed for the one week owners, if they do not convert.

Every Marriott timeshare is a prospect when they start building new resorts again and they can buy at construction prices. Re-sale buyers also pay the same maintenance fees as everyone else and that helps to keep the resorts running properly. Every owner is valuable to the timeshare developer so they can continue building new resorts in the future. After all, we finance their new projects. 

PS. Now I think about it further, will there be lower construction prices in the future if all what they sell are point packages? Do points differ in price when you buy early in the project or not?  Will price increases go away like they used to have?


----------



## PerryM

davidvel said:


> No. *Except for any completely new resorts (if any), the deeds will remain*.
> 
> We'll have to wait and see if they will be owned by Marriott, or more likely in a trust as suggested above.



I just can't imagine deeds flowing in and out of the trust so once in the trust they are under Marriott's control and the fine-print will describe what the "owner" gets, but they remain in the trust until Marriott decides to demolish the resort?  And then what?

But who knows...


----------



## l2trade

PerryM said:


> I just can't imagine deeds flowing in and out of the trust so once in the trust they are under Marriott's control and the fine-print will describe what the "owner" gets, but they remain in the trust until Marriott decides to demolish the resort?  And then what?
> 
> But who knows...



Once the deeds are in the trust, for all practical purposes they stay in the trust until some fine-print unforeseen future event where Marriott decides to adjust the underlying TRUST holdings.  Marriott cannot sell more points in the trust than remain in the trust.  I speculate that if Marriott decided to demolish a resort, they would need to acquire an appropriate amount of points or replace it with a comparable amount of points.  My knowledge of trust law is limited, so I will let others explain it better and I will wait until I read the fine-print.

When new owners sell resale points from the trust, they are selling points from the trust.  The new owner will have points they can use to make reservations within the Marriott network offered by the trust.  I am told that it never will convert back to a resort week deed.  So, deeds go into the trust and never come back out.


----------



## RedDogSD

If I make the following generalization, would people agree with me?

Platinum Marriott holders are going to like the new program because they will have enough points to get top weeks at their home resorts and probably enough points to make pretty solid trades most of the time and they will really like the fact that they can stretch their points to get multiple weeks by going off season or in smaller units.  This is the appeal of HGVC and they are still selling VERY well.

Gold owners are not sure yet.

Silver/Bronze owners are not happy for the most part.  They love the fact that they can often make huge trade ups for top resorts in good seasons because of the II 21 day policy.  They know that they will not have enough points to make trade ups to places like Hawaii or Calfornia in Platinum season and they are very afraid (with good reason) that the inventory being deposited into Interval is going to shrink substantially which will reduce the chances of their trading up.

Just generalizations.  As a Platinum owner, I am thrilled with the new program.  I usually like to go Off Season so I am going to get more value out of my points I bet.


----------



## James1975NY

RedDogSD said:


> Uhhhh, I doubt it.  How much do you think they make?  I would be very surprised to see any of them that make much over $100,000/year and those guys are few and far between.  I doubt there are any $250,000/year Timeshare salespeople.



The high money makers are certainly the minority but the best are/were making $250,000 or more. I know of one rep that made $60,000k in ONE month selling out of Maui. Not too shabby.


----------



## gmarine

Fletch said:


> Most get fired if they don't make that much ...




Interesting. I didnt know that timeshare salesperson is one of the highest paying professions in the country.


----------



## PerryM

l2trade said:


> Once the deeds are in the trust, for all practical purposes they stay in the trust until some fine-print unforeseen future event where Marriott decides to adjust the underlying TRUST holdings.  Marriott cannot sell more points in the trust than remain in the trust.  I speculate that if Marriott decided to demolish a resort, they would need to acquire an appropriate amount of points or replace it with a comparable amount of points.  My knowledge of trust law is limited, so I will let others explain it better and I will wait until I read the fine-print.
> 
> When new owners sell resale points from the trust, they are selling points from the trust.  The new owner will have points they can use to make reservations within the Marriott network offered by the trust.  I am told that it never will convert back to a resort week deed.  So, deeds go into the trust and never come back out.



So the question is how will resale Points be handled - what goodies will be left off.

I can't believe that after 4 years of bashing resales Marriott won't make resale Points just as unattractive.


----------



## PerryM

James1975NY said:


> The high money makers are certainly the minority but the best are/were making $250,000 or more. I know of one rep that made $60,000k in ONE month selling out of Maui. Not too shabby.



This is why for each $1 the developer spends to buy the timeshare $4 of sales is needed.

And why resales sell for a fraction of the developer's price - we don't have to compensate the sales team again nor the stockholders.


----------



## BocaBum99

l2trade said:


> Can you add to the details I've shared thus far?
> 
> BTW - I enjoy attending presentations to help train and educate the sales staff.     It is my public service for the legions of short term tour sales guides working alongside the much smaller world of sales folks that actually can make a living at this.  Quite often, I recognize folks from years past, and often remember their faces from tours at competitor brands.  My wealth of knowledge sometimes pisses sales reps off.  (BTW - I humbly admit that my wealth of knowledge is just child's play compared to many other TUGGERS here!)  Other times the sales manager comes over and jokes about offering me a job.  One time, the sales manager seemed really serious about it - he wanted to stop the presentation and hire me on the spot.  Yeah right, like I'm gonna quit my high paying job to go work for peanuts lying and ripping people off.  "Dude, this ain't no job interview!" is what I felt like saying.  "This is an obsessive hobby and analytical research to learn how to best game the system for crying out loud!"  Instead, I just smiled and thanked him for the offer. :rofl:
> 
> PS - There goes my future timeshare sales career.  I just made myself unemployable.  :hysterical:



Based on what I've seen in this thread, you have pretty good analytical skills.  Those skills are the exact opposite of what you need to be a successful timeshare salesman.  The best timeshare salesman are larger than life.  They sell emotion, not logic.  They sell a dream, not a defensible investment.

I would guess that you wouldn't be able to sell one timeshare unit in 60-days.  It's a very difficult job.  100% of the tour guests that sit in front of you have no intentions of buying.  Logic, doesn't sell them.  And, you've got to get these people to trust you enough where they make the second or third most expensive purchase in their life within a couple hours of meeting you and without checking out the product when you leave.  

When sales managers tell you that you should be a timeshare salesman, they are mocking and making fun of you.  They don't actually believe you will be any good.  They just want to find a way to torture you in a different way.  They actually think you suck and would love nothing more than make you believe you could be a timeshare salesman and take a few sales tours.


----------



## gmarine

Fletch said:


> Think highly of yourself, don't you ? Many of the sales people make more than you.. I can assure you of that ..



This is really uncalled for and unlike you. He generalized about timeshare salepersons which apparently offended you but he did not insult you personally.


----------



## rsackett

So if I as a legacy owner, or what ever we are called keep my deed and switch to points optional, will I keep paying my maintenance fees based on my home resort even when I use points for a year?  If so I think Platinum owners at high end resorts will be very happy, but Bronze owners will never use points.  If I get very few points but my maintenance fee is the same as someone who gets MANY more points I would never switch.

Ray


----------



## RedDogSD

gmarine said:


> Interesting. I didnt know that timeshare salesperson is one of the highest paying professions in the country.



It is pretty shocking to me as well since only 5% of individuals in the United States make over 100,000 and only 1.5% of households make over $250,000.   These guys sure don't act Rich.  I rarely see nice watches or shoes (the real trick to find people with money are the watches and the shoes although some rich people make a point of wearing Timex and Reebok to throw you off).  Other signs are manicured hands.  I have to pick these people out a lot in my job because these are the people who will pay me to do what I do.  So, if the TS salespeople are that well off, they sure hide it well.


----------



## BocaBum99

Perry,

Based on what L2trade has said in this thread, I would think that you would absolutely love the new Marriott point system.  It sounds like it will be a lot like WorldMark.  You can either purchase Marriott points and/or a deeded week like at Eagle Crest or a Seaside Fractional to deposit specific weeks into points on a yearly basis.  Isn't that your favorite system?


----------



## BocaBum99

RedDogSD said:


> It is pretty shocking to me as well since only 5% of individuals in the United States make over 100,000 and only 1.5% of households make over $250,000.   These guys sure don't act Rich.  I rarely see nice watches or shoes (the real trick to find people with money are the watches and the shoes although some rich people make a point of wearing Timex and Reebok to throw you off).  Other signs are manicured hands.  I have to pick these people out a lot in my job because these are the people who will pay me to do what I do.  So, if the TS salespeople are that well off, they sure hide it well.



Top timeshare sales people at resorts make over $250,000 per year.  In Marriott, it's a lot more mostly because the products are much more high end.

However, the average is more like $40-80k/year.  Most of them don't make it at all and quit or are fired after about 3 months or less.


----------



## PerryM

BocaBum99 said:


> Perry,
> 
> Based on what L2trade has said in this thread, I would think that you would absolutely love the new Marriott point system.  It sounds like it will be a lot like WorldMark.  You can either purchase Marriott points and/or a deeded week like at Eagle Crest or a Seaside Fractional to deposit specific weeks into points on a yearly basis.  Isn't that your favorite system?



Too early to tell - I need to understand the exit strategy; what do I do with a bunch of Points and the lifetime of MFs that come with it.  Marriott won't go into selling them so I'll have to read the paperwork.

Just a few more days to go....


----------



## hipslo

RedDogSD said:


> (the real trick to find people with money are the watches and the shoes although some rich people make a point of wearing Timex and Reebok to throw you off).  Other signs are manicured hands.



this is the funniest thing i have read in quite some time.


----------



## RedDogSD

hipslo said:


> this is the funniest thing i have read in quite some time.




It is funny, but true.  Not sure why but watches are a big deal.  I am a watch addict myself so I can relate.  If you see a Rolex, they are usually trying to broadcast something.  If you can spot a AP, a Panerai, IWC or Breitling, then that person is trying to be subtle.


----------



## dougp26364

rsackett said:


> What do you think would happen if marriott ever drops a resort?  In the new system Marriott will own a lot of deeds and need to sell those.  I would think that would be a BIG incentive Not to drop any resort in the future.
> 
> Ray



This is a very good point and one that could explain the "legacy" week process. If they allow those owners to keep their deeded weeks and switch at will to points, should they ever decide to drop that resort would it be such a big deal legaly for them to do so?


----------



## BocaBum99

James1975NY said:


> The high money makers are certainly the minority but the best are/were making $250,000 or more. I know of one rep that made $60,000k in ONE month selling out of Maui. Not too shabby.



Top sales people in companies who sell products worth more than $10,000 make more than $250,000 is most industries.


----------



## dougp26364

tombo said:


> But like exchanging often you can use rental income to really trade up, or to make profit, or both. If you have a prime Marriott week reserved and rent it for $2500 or more, you can often turn around and rent the same week in the same resort for $1500 or less by shopping around on different web sites. Why let II have your prime week when you can use it to vacation at a different prime week with cash in your pocket? If it doesn't rent fairly quickly you can always deposit it with II later.
> 
> In the past when the economy was better you could rent a Hawaii week to someone, take that rental cash and pay to rent a week from someone else, pay for your air fare, and have a little spending money left over. It is very hard to do in this economy but was fairly easy to do in the past and hopefully will be again in the future.
> 
> To vacation at the same or similar resort with $500 to $1000 cash in your pocket is worth a little extra effort to many, myself included. You can always exchange a prime week if it doesn't rent, but you can't rent it after you gave it to II.



I'm not willing to argue whether or not rent for income to turn around and rent what you want vs trading points. I'm sure that could be a better way to do things. I will argue that the typical timeshare owner has no interest in what would be a more labor intensive method to get what they want. If the typical timeshare owner see's value in trading their high demand week for 2 or 3 lower demand weeks, they'll see value in the system. 

Personally, I don't have time to mess with A. renting my week an B. searching for what I want at the price I want to pay. I don't want to deal with someone who might want to cancel last minute and demand a refund. I don't want to deal with someone who maybe gets caught renting as a business and has all their reservations cancelled. I want simplicity and what I would consider decent value. My bet is that the typical timeshare owner thinks along those lines.

If they see value in getting more in exchange from their high value week through points, then they'll buy in. If you own a high value week and every other week is a trade down, then they'll see value in getting more lower value weeks with points rather than trading one high value week for one lower value week. The principle of keep it simple comes into play with more people than you think.


----------



## BocaBum99

PerryM said:


> Too early to tell - I need to understand the exit strategy; what do I do with a bunch of Points and the lifetime of MFs that come with it.  Marriott won't go into selling them so I'll have to read the paperwork.
> 
> Just a few more days to go....



You will be buying and selling them on eBay just like WorldMark accounts.


----------



## rsackett

dougp26364 said:


> This is a very good point and one that could explain the "legacy" week process. If they allow those owners to keep their deeded weeks and switch at will to points, should they ever decide to drop that resort would it be such a big deal legaly for them to do so?



I would think it would not be a big deal IF Marriott does not put weeks it owns (via ROFR) in the trust.  If when they use ROFR to get a unit at a low price and resell it they sell it as points without a deed the trust could end up with a lage stake in all current resorts.

Ray


----------



## RedDogSD

BocaBum99 said:


> Top sales people in companies who sell products worth more than $10,000 make more than $250,000 is most industries.




That is why I feel sorry for most Car Salesman.  There are no margins on cars any longer.  The markup on most cars is $1000-$2000 over invoice price.  Even though the car costs $30,000, the dealership needs heavy volume to make money.  The salesperson just does not make that much on each sale and it is hard to sell more than 1-2 cars in a day.  So, even their top salespeople aren't doing that well.


----------



## BocaBum99

dougp26364 said:


> This is a very good point and one that could explain the "legacy" week process. If they allow those owners to keep their deeded weeks and switch at will to points, should they ever decide to drop that resort would it be such a big deal legaly for them to do so?



I think the structure that L2trade suggests is a good one that can work.  It would be very easy for Marriott to get rid of a resort.  All it needs to do is build or buy a new one and sell the old one.  Just swap out an equal amount of inventory into and out of the system.  Very easy to do since the Trust will own all of the deeds.  It can sell of whole condos or even whole resorts a lot easier.

Basically, what everyone will own is an undivided interest in the entire Trust.   Or, a number of shares of all the deeded weeks and units.


----------



## PerryM

BocaBum99 said:


> You will be buying and selling them on eBay just like WorldMark accounts.



Could be - there really is no penalty buying resale WM credits but we will have to see about Marriott.

Should we start a pool as to when the first resale Marriott Points appear for resale?

My guess is 3 months or Sep 20, 2010 at noon.


----------



## dougp26364

l2trade said:


> I trust the information I was told and in turn shared here to the best of my ability.  I tried hard to summarize, so that I would not disclose who I spoke with.  I do not want to get any Marriott employee in trouble.  If the answers from all my questions to them that I believe to be true and shared here are later proven false when the system rolls out, then I will be
> 
> I apologize in advance if any leak details I shared are later proven false.  Please know I feel confident in what I shared.  I take personal pride in trying to get everything right.  I know I will be ridiculed and ignored shortly if I got duped by the sales staff.
> 
> Until June 20th, this thread is for employee leaks, rumors and speculative discussion.  If you want official stuff in writing, you will have to wait.  Hopefully, we will start a new TUG thread for the official roll out.  Let's remember, this ain't no Watergate!  I'm not holding any leaked official documents.



I'm not saying you info isn't accurate. It just seems an odd way for Marriott to do things. Then again you're piecing things together from conversations with salesmen. I've found over the years that the sales reps aren't always the best source. Some are very good, others appear to sleep through a meeting catching only a couple of words and then filling in the blanks as they see fit. Others just have trouble with comprehension and then translate what they believe to be right.

As it sounds the way you've described, it will take a little while to digest. But that's what's good about TUG. This gives us something to think about while waiting for the official announcement. It gives us time to prepare our questions before speaking with a rep.


----------



## BocaBum99

If L2trade is correct, I will probably be purchasing a Marriott resale and then enrolling it into points for internal Flexchange purposes.  I'll buy the Marriott that provides me the lowest annual total cost of ownership over 3 years.  Total cost of ownership will include cost of capital and expected terminal value of selling my ownership after 3-5 years.  Probably a Platinum unit somewhere.


----------



## DanCali

RedDogSD said:


> Platinum Marriott holders are going to like the new program because they will have enough points to get top weeks at their home resorts and probably enough points to make pretty solid trades most of the time and they will really like the fact that they can stretch their points to get multiple weeks by going off season or in smaller units.  This is the appeal of HGVC and they are still selling VERY well.
> 
> Just generalizations. As a Platinum owner, I am thrilled with the new program. I usually like to go Off Season so I am going to get more value out of my points I bet.



I disagree - if a mainland Platinum cannot get a Hawaii week with the same unit size, why would I like it? If you own DSV, are lucky to reserve a March week, and deposit the full 2BR in II - I imagine the odds of getting a 2BR summer week at a place like Waiohai (no lockoffs) are north of 80% (assuming you can take 1 of 10 possible summer weeks). The same goes for a 2BR NCV owner lucky enough to reserve a summer week for trading purposes. These are not "Perry-like" trades - considering what I described one was depositing, many would call these like for like trades in the II world. In the new system, those odds may be, or are likely to be, exactly zero...

...unless you buy more points of course!

Don't be thrilled yet - wait for the points chart...


----------



## dougp26364

melroseman said:


> I2Trade:  Thanks for what seems to be the most "reliable" information yet, and information that should make some people feel a little more comfortable.
> 
> Did any of your questions involve if EOY units will be included??



Detailed. Definately. Reliable. We'll have to wait and see. The only reason I would have for doubt is the info is coming by word of mouth. To many times I've seen something said correctly but heard incorrectly. This is brand new. Training has only started recently. There will be mistakes made in the interpretation of how the program really works. 

This morning we had a staff meeting on a new procedure our hospital will be doing. Already there is miscommunication in what we've been told. Fortunately, we also have this in writing so it's easy to rectify the misunderstandings. 

I'm sure that the general spirit of what Marriott will be doing is correct. The details are still probably a little fuzzy. This should be fun after the 20th when we can possibly get at the written rules of the new program.


----------



## jlf58

George,

I did take it personally. I sold correctly and MANY top salespeople do also. Don't genralize for the actions of a few. 




gmarine said:


> This is really uncalled for and unlike you. He generalized about timeshare salepersons which apparently offended you but he did not insult you personally.


----------



## RedDogSD

DanCali said:


> I disagree - if a mainland Platinum cannot get a Hawaii week with the same unit size, why would I like it? If you own DSV, are lucky to reserve a March week, and deposit the full 2BR in II - I imagine the odds of getting a 2BR summer week at a place like Waiohai (no lockoffs) are north of 80% (assuming you can take 1 of 10 possible summer weeks). The same goes for a 2BR NCV owner lucky enough to reserve a summer week for trading purposes. In the new system, those odds may be, or are likely to be, exactly zero...
> 
> ...unless you buy more points of course!



I said Pretty Solid trades most of the time.  We cannot always compare everything to getting Hawaii.  If you wanted Hawaii, buy Hawaii.  However, I think that a NCV or DSV will be able to get anything else on the Mainland most of the time.  I own Hawaii already so I don't need to use my DSV week to get into Hawaii.  So, the small portion of Marriott Platinum owners who only want to use it to trade into Hawaii might not be happy, but I think that most of us might trade into lots of other spots in the world and will be generally happy.  I plan to go back to DSV or Shadow Ridge, using a smaller unit, during the Fall (same temp as the Winter, but not as popular) and maybe I can get several weeks.  We will see.


----------



## l2trade

BocaBum99 said:


> Based on what I've seen in this thread, you have pretty good analytical skills.  Those skills are the exact opposite of what you need to be a successful timeshare salesman.  The best timeshare salesman are larger than life.  They sell emotion, not logic.  They sell a dream, not a defensible investment.
> 
> I would guess that you wouldn't be able to sell one timeshare unit in 60-days.  It's a very difficult job.  100% of the tour guests that sit in front of you have no intentions of buying.  Logic, doesn't sell them.  And, you've got to get these people to trust you enough where they make the second or third most expensive purchase in their life within a couple hours of meeting you and without checking out the product when you leave.
> 
> When sales managers tell you that you should be a timeshare salesman, they are mocking and making fun of you.  They don't actually believe you will be any good.  They just want to find a way to torture you in a different way.  They actually think you suck and would love nothing more than make you believe you could be a timeshare salesman and take a few sales tours.



I agree with everything you just said.  I know I would fail miserably at it.  Thank you for the compliment.  

They may think it torture and mock me later.  Who cares?  I am truly entertained by it all.  It is a fun puzzle for me to sort out truths from lies.  It helps me stay current on it all.  I enjoy chatting timeshares... I mean, look at me?!  This hobby is just plain crazy, eh?  I walk out with one last free soda, my free gift and a smile on my face.  

But, getting back on topic about the Marriott system changes...  I feel I must stay current on how the industry is changing in order to keep getting the best exchanges.  Like the concerns PerryM raises, I see these changes negatively impacting some of my current trading strategies.  While I prefer the status quo on this topic, adjusting to changing times is a critical part of succeeding at the trading game.  I cannot stop this.  Heck, I'm not even an owner yet and held off buying because of it.  From what I've learned, I see some potential new vacation planning opportunities I like in this as well.  I will consider a resale legacy deed purchase to supplement my non-point ownerships if the details allow me to affordably do what I think (hope) they might.  As my alias says, I love to trade!


----------



## Latravel

BocaBum99 said:


> Top sales people in companies who sell products worth more than $10,000 make more than $250,000 is most industries.



I agree completely.  I don't like it when tuggers put down timeshare salespeople.  There is a talent to sales and not everyone can do it.  My husband is in sales and I readily identify that he has a rare talent. 

There are many people who try sales but the ones that make less than $100K, which is not much in sales, don't last long.  They get fired for not producing.  Many industries dont wan't to keep non-producers around since it results in lost potential sales.  They weed out the good ones and pay them VERY well (meaning over $300K up to $600K per year, as in my husband's company).

So it's very ignorant to think they are low paying workers who tell lies all day long.  And it's very arrogant to think you can do a better job just because you know a thing or two about the system.  I think that is the point Fletch was making but he was more to the point than me.


----------



## melroseman

Can we hit 100 viewing at the same time???


----------



## BocaBum99

Fletch said:


> George,
> 
> I did take it personally. I sold correctly and MANY top salespeople do also. Don't genralize for the actions of a few.



The vast majority of timeshare sales people across all timeshare developers intentionally or unintentionally lie about their product and how it works.  The product is too complex and sales success is so reliant on selling emotions that this is inevitably the nature of the beast.  

I've even met a Marriott in house sales guy who claimed to be a top salesman for Grand Vista.  He told me to purchase a lock off to trade for Cypress Harbour and rent them on eBay.  I was very surprised he told me to do this to make a sale.


----------



## rpluskota

Feel bad for anyone else looking to get a topic covered other than this thread......ha.

As stated earlier, I think the folks that have plat/gold weeks in a high demand area where the supply is not incredibly abundant will like the point system.  

The real question is could a gold week at marco island or St.Thomas as an example, where they have one resort with high demand actually have higher value that a plat in orlando.  It will be interesting to have that answer.  

I guess as a legacy owner the ability to opt in and out will be nice.  

I did ask a sales rep if the mf's are going to rise for legacy owner's, I was told no.


----------



## tombo

Thanks to Fletch and Boca for making clear what I assumed all TUGGERS knew, and that was that successful timeshare sales people make well over $100,000 a year, and yes many make $200,000 or more. I have never sold timeshares but have a friend who did quite well at it. I have sold purely commission sales and those jobs typically pay huge incomes to those who can actually sell. 

The problem with the timeshare sales and any purelly commission job is the stress. You are only as good as last month, last week, or even yesterday. You sell 2 Monday, one Tuesday, 2 Wedenesday and want to take Thursday off and the sales mgr says you can't take off thursday, you are hot and on a roll. You have to keep selling while you are hot. Two weeks later you haven't sold one in 5 days and need a day off because your head is about to explode, but your sales mgr says do you really feel that you can afford to take off work with no sales out this week? The pressure put on you by your boss, by yourself is relentless. It will make most start to smoke (I did), most will start to drink or start drinking more (ditto), and many sales people will get high blood pressure and need nerve pills (dodged that bullet). the pay is high for those who can sell, but the stress typically makes the career a short one even though the money is good.

If Fletch and Boca will be totally honest they will tell you that people who buy timeshares retail are hard to find. Sales people usually have to give many tours  before they actually find a buyer. When they do find a buyer they make a lot of money on that person and they want to make more and more money on that person if possible. If you find a meal ticket (buyer) you will work them for all they are worth. Fletch and Boca can tell you what people who buy multiple weeks are referred to by sales people since I am not familiar with timeshare sales lingo, but in most sales situations when you buy for full asking price you are referred to as a laydown, someone I hit a home run (or multiple home runs) off of, or some similar terminology used by sales people to refer to people that you can sell easily and often repeatedly. Believe me or not, it is a fact in most commission sales. 

So if you bought retail and your WONDERFUL sales rep constantly mails you post cards and e-mails informing you of sales and bargains you now know the real reason. It is not because he is so wonderful and wanting to inform you of great bargains that you might otherwise miss out on, it is because he found a meal ticket (you) and he is milking it for all it is worth. It is much easier to keep selling a laydown that you have sold before, and possibly before, and possibly before than it is to take strangers on timeshare tours and sell them. You will sell more and more to the same person until they are broke, dead, or finally refuse to buy again. The saying keep calling them till they buy or die is a mantra. If you have never been in commission sales this might sound cruel, greedy, harsh, etc, but it is reality.

And now you knowwww... the rest..... of the timeshare sales story.


----------



## DanCali

RedDogSD said:


> It is pretty shocking to me as well since only 5% of individuals in the United States make over 100,000 and only 1.5% of households make over $250,000.   These guys sure don't act Rich.  I rarely see nice watches or shoes (the real trick to find people with money are the watches and the shoes although some rich people make a point of wearing Timex and Reebok to throw you off).  Other signs are manicured hands.  I have to pick these people out a lot in my job because these are the people who will pay me to do what I do.  So, if the TS salespeople are that well off, they sure hide it well.



$250K won't get you that far in a city like San Francisco if you own a house (median price over $750K; average over $1M - and that's including the "bad" parts) and send your children to a good (i.e., private) school. By the way, this is Nancy Pelosi's district... (and I'll settle for that factual comment rather than politicize the issue)


----------



## RedDogSD

Latravel said:


> I agree completely.  I don't like it when tuggers put down timeshare salespeople.  There is a talent to sales and not everyone can do it.  My husband is in sales and I readily identify that he has a rare talent.



I don't put down Salespeople at all, but I don't like liars.  All sales is a BIT of stretching the truth, but I firmlyl believe in selling things you actually believe in and not mis-representing them.  The last salesperson I met from Hilton was a straight shooter.  He never lied to me about anything and did his best to sell me their system.  I left there in love with their system.  He understood that I could not justify the Retail price.  

Some TS guys (like the ones I ran into with Wyndham and Consolidated in Vegas) are pure liars who tried to make it seem like the value of our weeks would go up like crazy (what you are paying $40,000 now will be worth $55,000 in 5 years) and that renting them was so easy.  

Good salespeople know their product and understand how to push the right buttons.  The products should sell themselves.  I have to sell engagements to clients that sometimes cost a few million dollars or more.  I never BS them.  I do analysis of their problems and lay out solutions that I can help them with.  Some can't get over the sticker price, and others take the plunge.  I have to face that client for a long time after the deal is done, so I better not screw them.


----------



## BocaBum99

l2trade said:


> I agree with everything you just said.  I know I would fail miserably at it.  Thank you for the compliment.
> 
> They may think it torture and mock me later.  Who cares?  I am truly entertained by it all.  It is a fun puzzle for me to sort out truths from lies.  It helps me stay current on it all.  I enjoy chatting timeshares... I mean, look at me?!  This hobby is just plain crazy, eh?  I walk out with one last free soda, my free gift and a smile on my face.
> 
> But, getting back on topic about the Marriott system changes...  I feel I must stay current on how the industry is changing in order to keep getting the best exchanges.  Like the concerns PerryM raises, I see these changes negatively impacting some of my current trading strategies.  While I prefer the status quo on this topic, adjusting to changing times is a critical part of succeeding at the trading game.  I cannot stop this.  Heck, I'm not even an owner yet and held off buying because of it.  From what I've learned, I see some potential new vacation planning opportunities I like in this as well.  I will consider a resale legacy deed purchase to supplement my non-point ownerships if the details allow me to affordably do what I think (hope) they might.  As my alias says, I love to trade!



I am an extreme version of you.  I got so into it that I had to quit my job to manage my timeshare portfolio and get more time back to travel.

Just like the top 5% of timeshare salesmen make all the money, the top 5% of timeshare owners reap most of the rewards.  I feel pretty confident that this new Marriott Points product will be a motherload of great vacations for cheap.

Marriott will have to create simple rules in order to make the product sellable and understandable. That over simplication will create opportunity that the top 5% will exploit until they close those loopholes and open new ones.  It's fun figuring it out and travelling for peanuts based on these system inefficiencies.


----------



## RedDogSD

DanCali said:


> $250K won't get you that far in a city like San Francisco if you own a house (median price over $750K; average over $1M - and that's including the "bad" parts) and send your children to a good (i.e., private) school. By the way, this is Nancy Pelosi's district... (and I'll settle for that factual comment rather than politicize the issue)



Yeah, I know.  I grew up in Walnut Creek and worked in SF for a few years.  You will probably not be able to buy a house in the City if you only make 250k.  You can move to Bay Point and take the Bart train to work.  It is a cruel place, but most won't move away.


----------



## l2trade

Fletch said:


> ...
> I did take it personally. I sold correctly and MANY top salespeople do also. Don't genralize for the actions of a few. ...



Fletch, I'm sorry you took it personally.  I thought top sales producers had thicker skin and were better at rejection than socially awkward, analytical types like me.  Maybe I was wrong.  

Also, perhaps we may have met sometime back during a sales presentation.  Were you the one who walked in to help out clueless sales tour rep at Ko Olina?  I was the nerdy looking guy who brought my wireless laptop and pulled up my II trading history, family vacation photo album, eBay and TUG.  Yes, in hindsight, I agree I took things too far to prove what I was claiming was truth.  For that, I am sorry and thanks for gift & all the memories.   

Let's try to put this embarrassing episode behind us and focus on the issues at hand.  Thanks for the helpful reminder to keep my ego in check.


----------



## DanCali

RedDogSD said:


> I said Pretty Solid trades most of the time.  We cannot always compare everything to getting Hawaii.  If you wanted Hawaii, buy Hawaii.  However, I think that a NCV or DSV will be able to get anything else on the Mainland most of the time.  I own Hawaii already so I don't need to use my DSV week to get into Hawaii.  So, the small portion of Marriott Platinum owners who only want to use it to trade into Hawaii might not be happy, but I think that most of us might trade into lots of other spots in the world and will be generally happy.  I plan to go back to DSV or Shadow Ridge, using a smaller unit, during the Fall (same temp as the Winter, but not as popular) and maybe I can get several weeks.  We will see.



My point wasn't necessarily regarding buying or trading to Hawaii. One doesn't need to buy in Hawaii if they don't go every year, but many would like to visit there once in a while. 

My point was that a Platinum owner diligent/lucky to get a high demand week in the current system is better off with II in terms of "trading power" than in a points system where they get the average trading power of their season. It doesn't matter if it's NCV summer, DSV spring, MCV spring, HHI summer or if you trade every year or every other year. A 130-150 TDI week at one of those resorts will always do better than the average TDI of the Platinum season, which is what you'll get in a points system. Owners who reserve those weeks have more than a fair chance to trade to a similar size unit almost anywhere within Marriott, including Hawaii (possibly excluding new resorts for the first couple of years). 

If one bought multiple units to maximize their chances to get such a week in the current system, why pay Marriott $169 per unit per year (+ conversion fees) to get less? The main difference between the system is the method of exchanging. If the "trading power" (I realize this means different things to different people, but I don't consider getting 3 weeks in Orlando for my 1 week such a big bonus) is higher with II, why switch and pay more?


----------



## dougp26364

BocaBum99 said:


> I think the structure that L2trade suggests is a good one that can work.  It would be very easy for Marriott to get rid of a resort.  All it needs to do is build or buy a new one and sell the old one.  Just swap out an equal amount of inventory into and out of the system.  Very easy to do since the Trust will own all of the deeds.  It can sell of whole condos or even whole resorts a lot easier.
> 
> Basically, what everyone will own is an undivided interest in the entire Trust.   Or, a number of shares of all the deeded weeks and units.



While this is true, it also eleminates those weeks from being sold. So if they get rid of one resort with 1,000 weeks in the trust, transfer them to the new resort, that's 1,000 unit weeks at a new resort they can't sell. That's bound to have an effect on the cost structure for the new resort if you insantly remove 1,000 unit weeks from new sales. Build and swap appears to be a great way to build a new resort and then cut the amount of inventory available to sell. That would not be a very efficient way to remove your name from a timeshare.


----------



## billymach4

*Developer Sales and Purchasers*

Lets be real here. 

Someone has to take the plunge. I wish developer timeshares would sell themselves like sliced bread. I still get strange looks from people when I tell them about my timeshares. 

So I truly thank the good honest timeshare sales teams. Marriott almost sold me on my first TS tour, but I rescinded. I am glad I did. Yes they have a great product, and resales are my ticket. I got savvy like all of the Tuggers here. Yes some of you bought Developer Full Freight. Still a good deal if you bought from Marriott. 

So I applaud both Good Honest Hard Working Timeshare Sales, and Developer buyers. 

Without your hard work and money we all collectively would not be enjoying our great vacations! 

Now lets get back to business here. I feel like it is Y2K all over again. Who is going to get the 1st real scoop here on the new (Still Rumored) TS system. OK I am now a believer!

DaveM and Fletch you have both made me a follower of the new system.


----------



## davidvel

rsackett said:


> I would think it would not be a big deal IF Marriott does not put weeks it owns (via ROFR) in the trust.  If when they use ROFR to get a unit at a low price and resell it they sell it as points without a deed the trust could end up with a lage stake in all current resorts.
> 
> Ray


That just isn't how property works. What they "re-sell" may not be a deeded interest, but the deed is still there. The unit, the physical property is a deeded interest in land (subject to the governing documents). 

No one, including Marriott or HOA, can make that deed and its covenants go away (yes there are inapplicable exceptions). So they grant the ownership interest to the trust. The unit and its usage rights will always be ultimately controlled by what's in that deed and the covenants.


----------



## dougp26364

BocaBum99 said:


> If L2trade is correct, I will probably be purchasing a Marriott resale and then enrolling it into points for internal Flexchange purposes.  I'll buy the Marriott that provides me the lowest annual total cost of ownership over 3 years.  Total cost of ownership will include cost of capital and expected terminal value of selling my ownership after 3-5 years.  Probably a Platinum unit somewhere.



At this point I'm not seeing any downside to not belonging to the points system as a "legacy" owner. It appears Marriott will allow me to keep what I own or dip into the points program when it's to my advantage. If that's really the case why wouldn't every current owner join the program? We could keep our Ocean Pointe week as is unless there comes a time we don't want to use it anymore and, with our Vegas week, we can use it when we want to or go to points for years we want to go somewhere else. 

I'm wondering if the program will allow for borrowing/saving points. If you can jump in/jump out, how will borrow/save work and will it be an option? Borrow/save programs are what allow owners of lower value weeks to move up if/when they want to.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> ... So if you bought retail and your WONDERFUL sales rep constantly mails you post cards and e-mails informing you of sales and bargains you now know the real reason. It is not because he is so wonderful and wanting to inform you of great bargains that you might otherwise miss out on, it is because he found a meal ticket (you) and he is milking it for all it is worth. It is much easier to keep selling a laydown that you have sold before, and possibly before, and possibly before than it is to take strangers on timeshare tours and sell them. You will sell more and more to the same person until they are broke, dead, or finally refuse to buy again. The saying keep calling them till they buy or die is a mantra. If you have never been in commission sales this might sound cruel, greedy, harsh, etc, but it is reality.
> 
> And now you knowwww... the rest..... of the timeshare sales story.



What about if you bought retail and your WONDERFUL sales rep doesn't email or telephone or harass you in any way but lets you know she's available any time if you have questions, and the only time you ever hear from her is when you've initiated contact?  What about if you think she's WONDERFUL because you've never heard anything from her that wasn't the truth, or didn't help you use your timeshare to get the best vacations possible?  What about if you believe that she's WONDERFUL because she presents the product exactly as it is and doesn't use any psychological mumbojumbo or greedy sales weasel tricks on you to try to suck you dry?

I'm with Fletch here - there ARE sales reps who are able to sell at high volume and collect very good paychecks because they're honestly presenting a good product.  Here on TUG those WONDERFUL sales reps are far too often lumped in with the bad apples, and don't get the credit they deserve for simply doing their jobs the best they can so that they and the folks they sell to are happy in the end.


----------



## dougp26364

BocaBum99 said:


> I am an extreme version of you.  I got so into it that I had to quit my job to manage my timeshare portfolio and get more time back to travel.
> 
> Just like the top 5% of timeshare salesmen make all the money, the top 5% of timeshare owners reap most of the rewards.  I feel pretty confident that this new Marriott Points product will be a motherload of great vacations for cheap.
> 
> Marriott will have to create simple rules in order to make the product sellable and understandable. That over simplication will create opportunity that the top 5% will exploit until they close those loopholes and open new ones.  It's fun figuring it out and travelling for peanuts based on these system inefficiencies.



I think it's the idea that Marriott will allow me to jump in/jump out that has me stunned. It's an unbelievable benefit that I just didn't see Marriott putting on the table. It may be the first time in 10 years that a timeshare company has made me sit still and blink a couple of times.


----------



## l2trade

billymach4 said:


> ...
> Now lets get back to business here. I feel like it is Y2K all over again. Who is going to get the 1st real scoop here on the new (Still Rumored) TS system.
> ...



I think the 1st real scoop here already happened.  Please look back some pages to see what I posted.  Yes, it is hearsay from numerous recent conversations with Marriott sales reps.  I believe the facts I was told and summarized from these contacts.  I understand most folks will wait until they have something official in writing.  Nothing more anyone can say without leaking or stealing official internal documents.  I would not condone such illegal behavior.  I cannot imagine a 1st real scoop shared any different from what we've shared already before the official system rolls out.


----------



## RedDogSD

dougp26364 said:


> I think it's the idea that Marriott will allow me to jump in/jump out that has me stunned. It's an unbelievable benefit that I just didn't see Marriott putting on the table. It may be the first time in 10 years that a timeshare company has made me sit still and blink a couple of times.



I love it as well, but I definitely think that we will rarely if ever see Marriott Hawaii weeks in Interval any longer.  Those owners (technically I still am one until ex-wife completes transfer of Ko-Olina) will either use the week in Hawaii, or take the points since it will almost always take less points to go elsewhere in the system.  With Hilton, since they have not covered every area yet, people still have to use RCI.  Marriott has covered a great deal of the country, so those who have to go outside of Marriott and use II will be few and far between.

Here is hoping that Marriott Hawaii owners want to go to Oregon, Vermont and New York since Marriott is not there yet.


----------



## billymach4

l2trade said:


> I think the 1st real scoop here already happened.  Please look back some pages to see what I posted.  Yes, it is hearsay from numerous recent conversations with Marriott sales reps.  I believe the facts I was told and summarized from these contacts.  I understand most folks will wait until they have something official in writing.  Nothing more anyone can say without leaking or stealing official internal documents.  I would not condone such illegal behavior.  I cannot imagine a 1st real scoop shared any different from what we've shared already before the official system rolls out.



Good Job!


----------



## BocaBum99

dougp26364 said:


> I think it's the idea that Marriott will allow me to jump in/jump out that has me stunned. It's an unbelievable benefit that I just didn't see Marriott putting on the table. It may be the first time in 10 years that a timeshare company has made me sit still and blink a couple of times.



It's not unusual and it will cost money to participate.  Think about it from Marriott's point of view.  In the program that L2trade describes, here is what Marriott gets:

1) Upfront fee from new program participants with guaranteed annual dues.  That is free money for what amounts to a points for deposit program.

2) Control of inventory that is deposited.  This is what they are really aiming to get, IMO.

3) A way to run 2 separate programs as the two programs begin to merge inventory. I do believe that Marriott will buy inventory off the open market to put into the system over time.  And, they will likely take a lot of trade ins in exchange for additional points purchases.

I'm not saying that this is what Marriott would do.  But, if they do, it won't be that bad for Marriott and for current owners.  Basically what Marriott will be saying is that they will be operating two systems and you can pick the one you want going forward.  Marrriott has a new product, so if you want access to it, you need to buy in via a developer purchase or a conversion.


----------



## l2trade

dougp26364 said:


> I think it's the idea that Marriott will allow me to jump in/jump out that has me stunned. It's an unbelievable benefit that I just didn't see Marriott putting on the table. It may be the first time in 10 years that a timeshare company has made me sit still and blink a couple of times.



I agree.  Based on this pitch, I would seriously consider upgrading IF I were already an owner with a high points to MF value deed and the introductory upgrade price is low.

In my situation, I will wait to see what rights future legacy resale owners get or don't get to join the points system.


----------



## BocaBum99

l2trade said:


> I agree.  Based on this pitch, I would seriously consider upgrading IF I were already an owner with a high points to MF value deed and the introductory upgrade price is low.
> 
> In my situation, I will wait to see what rights future legacy resale owners get or don't get to join the points system.



There will be a catch that we don't know about yet.


----------



## rsackett

_Quote:
Originally Posted by rsackett  
"I would think it would not be a big deal IF Marriott does not put weeks it owns (via ROFR) in the trust. If when they use ROFR to get a unit at a low price and resell it they sell it as points without a deed the trust could end up with a lage stake in all current resorts.

Ray "_


davidvel said:


> That just isn't how property works. What they "re-sell" may not be a deeded interest, but the deed is still there. The unit, the physical property is a deeded interest in land (subject to the governing documents).
> 
> No one, including Marriott or HOA, can make that deed and its covenants go away (yes there are inapplicable exceptions). So they grant the ownership interest to the trust. The unit and its usage rights will always be ultimately controlled by what's in that deed and the covenants.



I did not mean to imply that the deed went away.  What I ment was the deeds bought through ROFR would not be held by individual owners but rather in the "Trust", and as such it would be harder for Mariott to dump that property.  When they anounce that they are dumping that propety the valuw would drop, and the trust would need to sell those weeks. Also the number of "Points" in the Trust would decrease and Marriott would need to rplace those points somehow or buy back points to make the net zero again.

Ray


----------



## taffy19

*I feel better now*



dioxide45 said:


> This is actually quite interesting. Wondering why they would be doing a webinar on how to trade your week THROUGH II if they are looking to do it themselves.


I just talked to our resort and to owner services. Both told me that we will love the new program as we have the best of both worlds. He also said that we would really like it since we own at the MOC and when I told him that we own a fixed week/unit, he said that is even better. I hope it is true.  

They didn't ask who I was as I asked him first about how to still be able to sign up for the webinar that I received an email about and that will take place tomorrow and then I casually asked about the changes starting next week. He told me that he couldn't discuss it yet but that I will be receiving an email on Monday. :whoopie: 

He then referred me to the other department, who gave me the following link so that I can still sign up for tomorrow. This is a complete different website that I posted here earlier in case anyone is interested too.

http://marriottlearningcenter.conferencing.com/Interval_International_Exchanges_EN_US.htm


----------



## billymach4

iconnections said:


> I just talked to our resort and to owner services. Both told me that we will love the new program as we have the best of both worlds. He also said that we would really like it since we own at the MOC and when I told him that we own a fixed week/unit, he said that is even better. I hope it is true.
> 
> They didn't ask who I was as I asked him first about how to still be able to sign up for the webinar that I received an email about and that will take place tomorrow and then I casually asked about the changes starting next week. He told me that he couldn't discuss it yet but that I will be receiving an email on Monday. :whoopie:
> 
> He then referred me to the other department, who gave me the following link so that I can still sign up for tomorrow. This is a complete different website that I posted here earlier in case anyone is interested too.
> 
> http://marriottlearningcenter.conferencing.com/Interval_International_Exchanges_EN_US.htm



If you have the latest copy of Marriott Interval World magazine that website
Marriottlearningcenter.com is mentioned on the Welcome page in David Babich's message.

You will get redirected to http://marriottlearningcenter.conferencing.com/


----------



## gmarine

Fletch said:


> George,
> 
> I did take it personally. I sold correctly and MANY top salespeople do also. Don't genralize for the actions of a few.



Hey Fletch,

I understand, but it didnt seem like l2trade meant to insult you or any honest salesperson in any way. Even an honest salesperson like yourself would probably admit that the vast majority of timeshare salespersons are a bit less than honest. 

I've gone on quite a few Marriott presentations and have been both surprised by the honesty and surprised by the dishonesty of the sales people. However, at least Marriott has some honest sales people. I dont think that can be said about every developer.


----------



## DanCali

dougp26364 said:


> At this point I'm not seeing any downside to not belonging to the points system as a "legacy" owner. It appears Marriott will allow me to keep what I own or dip into the points program when it's to my advantage. If that's really the case why wouldn't every current owner join the program?



I agree that it appears one has nothing to lose by joining. But if you consider it carefully, you'll see that's not necessarily the case.

First off, even if you can jump in and out, you'd probably still owe $169 when using home resort or doing an II weeks exchange. That's around a 15% hike to the average annual MFs one currently pays. You also have the upfront fee which, if the upgrade doesn't transfer on resale, would be money you'd never see back (if it does transfer on resale, I'm assuming an upgraded unit will be more valuable on the resale market than a legacy week).

This is all about changing the way you make exchanges - home resort use would be more costly in the points system due to annual fees. So if one bought mostly to use, there is no real need to join. If one exchanges, it's a matter of where you exchange to. As I said before, I believe Hawaii and Caribbean Platinum exchanges from a mainland location will not be feasible without buying more points. One would normally have a better shot with II be depositing a strong trader... Of course if all the Hawaii and Caribbean owners join the points system, II exchanges may be tougher but the competition will also be smaller so it could be a wash.

Rather than say one has nothing to lose by joining, I say it's better to wait and see unless you really think you'll benefit and the conversion price down the road is much higher... Even then, I'm sure there will be conversion "specials" down the road, whenever the points system needs more inventory.


----------



## l2trade

*Marriott Vacation Club, Asia Pacific Member?*

Marriott employee just claimed to me that point systems are nothing new to them.  I am told they've successfully run this point system for years and it served as a guide for upcoming changes in the US.  Asia Pacific will be provided as an example that Marriott already knows what they are doing when they introduce the point system in the US.  Does anyone know the facts about this?  Please help me out to validate the facts (good & bad) on this one.   

http://www.marriottvillas.com/asiapac/discover_asia.jsp 

When you become a Marriott Vacation Club, Asia Pacific Member, you receive exclusive access and privileges at Marriott's most popular resorts. All that is required of you to become a Member is to purchase points to be redeemed for the holiday of your dreams.

Points offer you the flexibility of designing a holiday getaway your way at one of the Marriott Vacation Club, Asia Pacific resorts in Thailand, Hawaii and Las Vegas. In addition points can be exchanged for holiday privileges at other exciting destinations around the world.


----------



## dioxide45

A couple things:

For those thinking that II won't get any more Marriott weeks are mistaken. There are thousands of non-Marriott owners who exchange in to Marriott resorts. Those are weeks that no other Marriott owner wanted. A points system isn't going to create more Marriott owners wanting those weeks. Sure Marriott is going to place developer owned inventory in to a points system, but it won't let them go unused. Unreserved and developer owned weeks will still find their way to II just like before, just perhaps not as soon as you are used to. Imagine 25000 developer deposits and perhaps only 10000 owners in points. See the connection or lack thereof.

Marriott also won't suddenly start exercising ROFR to fund any new system. They don't need prime weeks anymore, they have lots of unsold non prime inventory to unload, and they will be able to sell it as prime. Marriott doesn't want more weeks, they can't afford to hold the ones they have.


----------



## jimf41

dioxide45 said:


> There are only two groups of people who have a problem with people who bought or are buying resale, sale people and some people who bought developer.



I think you have this turned around. I've never heard of a an owner who bought from the developer say one cross word about a resale buyer. On the other hand resale buyers constantly demean those who bought from the developer. As the announcement of the new system gets closer it seems that some resale buyers are worried that their decision to save money by purchasing resale won't have quite the luster it once had.

This is foolish for two reasons. First, I don't think Marriott is going to offer a fantastically better opportunity to its developer folks as it does to it resale folks. A little better maybe but not a lot. It just doesn't make much business sense. Second, they are not implementing this plan to improve the lot of developer folks. They are doing it to make money, they better be I'm a stockholder. So if you want to make money from your current group of owners why only target half of them? I say make money from everybody you can. That makes good business sense.


----------



## NJMOM2

BocaBum99 said:


> I've even met a Marriott in house sales guy who claimed to be a top salesman for Grand Vista.  He told me to purchase a lock off to trade for Cypress Harbour and rent them on eBay.  I was very surprised he told me to do this to make a sale.



I had that same saleman the last time were went on an owner's update.  I told him it's against II rules to rent an exchange.  He then said it's okay along as he is only renting a Marriott exchange.  When he left the room I showed my husband the paragraph in the Interval book that stated you cannot rent an exchange period.

I can't wait for this new program to be announced!!!  I have pages to read after a leaving my computer for a few hours.  We are quickly catching up the the Aruba thread.


----------



## dioxide45

jimf41 said:


> I think you have this turned around. I've never heard of a an owner who bought from the developer say one cross word about a resale buyer.



Are you sure? Perry bought resale and has been a target many times. Any person who bought a resale lockoff and uses each side to "trade up" has been a target.


----------



## m61376

A couple of things in the preceding few pages peaked my interest- one was the comment that owners of a given resort might not actually be able to book some of the weeks in their owned season, since different nights would command different point values.

I haven't read any leaks on how points would be assigned/properties valued, which I find a bit curious. 

I understand the concept of legacy weeks and owners being able to opt in and out (which seems like the best of both worlds). But would they be reserving with weeks or points, and can half of the unit be used to reserve at one's home resort and the other part converted into points?

Along with the opting in and out- will everyone be getting to reserve at the same time, or will legacy owners reserving a week in their season have first crack (both those who have converted into the new system and those that have simply retained their original rights)?


----------



## jimf41

dioxide45 said:


> Are you sure? Perry bought resale and has been a target many times. Any person who bought a resale lockoff and uses each side to "trade up" has been a target.



I could be wrong. Maybe you could dig up a thread that didn't start off disparaging a developer purchase in which a developer purchaser just starts sounding off about how evil resale buyers are. I wouldn't pick one that Perry started or participated in though. While some folks may strike back at him it's my observation that he usually fires off a few rounds first.


----------



## dioxide45

m61376 said:


> Along with the opting in and out- will everyone be getting to reserve at the same time, or will legacy owners reserving a week in their season have first crack (both those who have converted into the new system and those that have simply retained their original rights)?



This will be important to know. After the switch Marriott will be selling everyone enough point to get prime time just about anywhere. This equates to more owners of prime time than the amount of prime time in the system.


----------



## Dean

laurac260 said:


> Ok, so I called Marriott Owner Services.  4 days from the official unveiling, and they have heard absolutely nothing about it.  Really?  Someone please tell me what company they have ever worked for that is getting ready to unveil a program that will turn their entire business on it's ear and yet they have provided absolutely no info, NO TRAINING to their front line folks????
> 
> Marriott has been around way too long to run that stupidly.  Marriott is all about training programs.  There's NO WAY they would unveil this WITHOUT having their front line folks ready to answer every question they could possibly get.  My week is coming up in a month.  I plan on spending my time getting ready to ENJOY it, not getting lost in this crazy thread any longer.


More likely those employees have been threatened by with losing their job if they discuss the matter.



Pro said:


> When all this goes down, can someone answer these two questions for me:
> 
> 1:  Will points members be able to bank and borrow points from one year to the next?
> 
> 2:  Will points members be able to tranfer points from one member to another member?
> 
> Joe


Those 2 items are on my check list already.



rsackett said:


> What do you think would happen if marriott ever drops a resort?  In the new system Marriott will own a lot of deeds and need to sell those.  I would think that would be a BIG incentive Not to drop any resort in the future.
> 
> Ray


They've dropped 9 so far.  I've posted that I suspect a few are already on the chopping block and likely won't be included in any new program, we'll see.  Ultimately what happens if Marriott drops a resort is those who own at that resort or are in a trust from that resort cease to be a member of the club.



l2trade said:


> You are correct.  I have received both sales pitches at length.  I asked numerous questions for comparative analysis to see if I should buy now or wait.  There are pros and cons on each side.  Only today allows me to buy the old system (retail - LMAO) with the option to wait and rescind.  Of course, the sales rep wants to sell to me today, but also doesn't want to talk me out of buying Sunday's product if I don't move fast enough.  For the record, I will do neither.
> 
> If Marriott wants my business, it will be a legacy resale deed.  I can afford to wait a year or two to see how all this plays out.  I own too many timeshares already.  My main interest in all of this is to understand the implications of the change well enough, so I know how it impacts II availability for me as a non-Marriott owner exchanging in.  I was planning to dump my Starwood timeshares and switch to Marriott last fall, but I heard the early elusive rumors direct from the mouth of a Marriott Sales VP at the time.


Real info is helpful, along with a couple of others, yours is based on real info, the rest of us are just beating our gums.  I'm sure we all know that what you've shared is to the best of your knowledge currently and it's likely that something you shared will end up not being correct because even with things that are planned in advance, things change.  I think I can speak for the group in saying thanks for the info, effort and the willingness to share.  IT is much appreciated, THANK YOU.


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## jlf58

no problem  



l2trade said:


> Fletch, I'm sorry you took it personally.  I thought top sales producers had thicker skin and were better at rejection than socially awkward, analytical types like me.  Maybe I was wrong.
> 
> Also, perhaps we may have met sometime back during a sales presentation.  Were you the one who walked in to help out clueless sales tour rep at Ko Olina?  I was the nerdy looking guy who brought my wireless laptop and pulled up my II trading history, family vacation photo album, eBay and TUG.  Yes, in hindsight, I agree I took things too far to prove what I was claiming was truth.  For that, I am sorry and thanks for gift & all the memories.
> 
> Let's try to put this embarrassing episode behind us and focus on the issues at hand.  Thanks for the helpful reminder to keep my ego in check.


----------



## dioxide45

Oh, I still say its all just a rumor...


----------



## Dean

iconnections said:


> How can you not expect the maintenance fees going up when people can check in and out every day? They have to have more cleaning staff and it will cost you wear and tear to the condos.
> 
> The systeme will be more flexible because you can travel to a certain destination and stay in a Marriott condo or a hotel with the new point system.
> 
> Marriott recently received a reward for their super duper reservation system that is ready for global growth so the program must be very sophisticated and can handle all the challenges that we are wondering about, I hope.


Some costs go up and some go down, overall a more flexible system will cost more though I doubt that much.  DVC is about 30-40% higher than a comparable Marriott even with the included transportation.  My guess is around 20-30% higher overall but it depends on how much pay to play they do (extra housekeeping, etc).  Spreading checkins out likely reduces total numbers of employees but increases full time employees somewhat.



l2trade said:


> We walked away with different understandings on this point.  I cannot believe with certainty that there won't be some exceptions at the retail 'ROFR/resale' purchase level.  So, speculatively speaking, I am inclined to strongly agree with you.  However, I was told again and again and again that Marriott will no longer sell anything but points from the TRUST.  Time will tell how true that claim is and what exceptions, if any, exist.


I would be very surprised if they sold deeded weeks going forward.  Maybe for any resorts not included in the system if applicable, maybe a few EOY currently on the books and a transition period for resales already in the works.


----------



## l2trade

dioxide45 said:


> This will be important to know. After the switch Marriott will be selling everyone enough point to get prime time just about anywhere. This equates to more owners of prime time than the amount of prime time in the system.



Prime time nights will cost more points (money) than low demand nights.  This is similar to the way hotel pricing varies by seasonal demand.

This is a big change from the legacy weeks model.  Under that model, every owner pays the same home resort MF per week, regardless which week they end up reserving.  There will be a greater incentive for points only owners to travel off season if they want to stretch their points into more nights.  This would not be the case if the MF prices were held the same per night year round, as they are today.

Legacy week owners can continue to book their home resort week or trade with II weeks via the old rules.  However, some owners will find it advantageous to convert their week to points and stretch those points at other resorts to travel additional nights (or weeks).  

I highly doubt every points owner will be fighting over the top resorts and times, if they now cost the most in points.  If it were me, more often I'd probably look to stretch my travel points by not picking the most expensive time to stay.


----------



## jlf58

it used to go higher than that sometimes 




James1975NY said:


> The high money makers are certainly the minority but the best are/were making $250,000 or more. I know of one rep that made $60,000k in ONE month selling out of Maui. Not too shabby.


----------



## RandR

l2trade said:


> I highly doubt every points owner will be fighting over the top resorts and times, if they now cost the most in points.  If it were me, more often I'd probably look to stretch my travel points by not picking the most expensive time to stay.



But anyone with kids or school teachers will need the times when they are off from school and people who ski or want the beaches at the best times will only have a limited window that they will want to reserve.  Plus, right now it is only people from that ts in the proper season that can try and get a prime week.  In the points system it will be opened up to so many more people.


----------



## Dean

bwenzel said:


> I just have to chime in here and say that I really don't have much interest in points.  We very much enjoy staying at our resorts for week long intervals and generally go on vacation for at least two weeks straight to minimize are greatest vacation costs, travel to get there.
> 
> I have no interest in paying fees to convert to points to I have the flexibility to pay more in travel costs to stay at a timeshare resort for a shorter stay period.  We sold our DVC points to get into Marriott's deeded weeks program and don't regret it for one moment!
> 
> As long as I'm not punished for keeping my deeded weeks and see my exchange opportunities limited, I can't see a scenario when I want to covert to points.  Besides, we exchange sometimes, but absolutely love where and when we own and would have no problem going there every year!
> 
> Bill


What about going to HI or Aruba (etc) and arriving say Wed or Thu staying a week or two then leaving on Mon/Tue.  You've almost got almost a 2/3 week vacation for the time of a 1/2 week vacation.  ASMOF, that's exactly what we're doing in Aruba in Jan but we're changing systems to make it happen by staying on BG points at La Cabana for 2 nights, then moving to Surf Club for 7 then back to LCB for 3 more.  Or maybe you just want to do long weekends even if it is higher points.  The potential flexibility (cruises, etc) is far more expansive even than MVCI plus MR points currently.  The question is what's the other side, what are we giving up, the details.


----------



## hipslo

RandR said:


> But anyone with kids or school teachers will need the times when they are off from school and people who ski or want the beaches at the best times will only have a limited window that they will want to reserve.  Plus, right now it is only people from that ts in the proper season that can try and get a prime week.  In the points system it will be opened up to so many more people.




yep.  same supply of prime weeks, more demand, since reservations will be opened to anyone who has enough points.  how that will result in prime week reservations being easier to come by escapes me.


----------



## PerryM

jimf41 said:


> I could be wrong. Maybe you could dig up a thread that didn't start off disparaging a developer purchase in which a developer purchaser just starts sounding off about how evil resale buyers are. I wouldn't pick one that Perry started or participated in though. While some folks may strike back at him it's my observation that he usually fires off a few rounds first.



Well I'm glad folks are keeping score - I guess.

I've bought developer and I've bought resale and there is a madness to my method.  Do a 10 year projection of buying-using-selling and compare that to the freedom of renting and you get your answer.

Ok; back to the Round #3...


----------



## l2trade

dioxide45 said:


> This will be important to know. After the switch Marriott will be selling everyone enough point to get prime time just about anywhere. This equates to more owners of prime time than the amount of prime time in the system.



One more thing on this - 

Everyone knows that the seasonal system is not perfect.  This is why owners wake up early and fight for the best reservation weeks one year in advance, while the remaining weeks of that season are easy to obtain.  We talked about this situation at length.  Conceptually, the new point system will allow the point costs to reserve these different weeks within the same 'legacy season' to vary greatly and better reflect actual demand.  Practically, I did not get a good explanation of how this will all work behind the scenes, beyond what I shared thus far.  Will the TRUST snag all the best weeks ahead of owners following the legacy seasonal week rules?  I don't know.  Will legacy owners get an average, fixed points value for their season?  I don't know.  Owners in this situation should pay close attention to all the details of how this will work when it rolls out.  I could not get a consistent answer to my detailed questions here.   

This would be one of my biggest concerns in purchasing a resale legacy floating seasonal week for the perceived home resort reservation priority under the old rules.  The risks (I speculate) are reminiscent of the painful reality of what Starwood did to non-SVN floating owners.  Fixed week owners do not face the same risks.  I will keep that lesson (my bias) in mind if I decide to purchase a resale Marriott legacy week someday.  

Reminder to Self: Fixed over floating!


----------



## l2trade

RandR said:


> But anyone with kids or school teachers will need the times when they are off from school and people who ski or want the beaches at the best times will only have a limited window that they will want to reserve.  Plus, right now it is only people from that ts in the proper season that can try and get a prime week.  In the points system it will be opened up to so many more people.



Good points.  I guess it all depends on the spread and how these variables offset each other.  If II availability and getaways are any indicator, I would guess that a prime time week equals many off season weeks.  By artificially narrowing that wide spread of points, you increase the demand (fighting) for the best weeks.


----------



## MOXJO7282

l2trade said:


> Good points.  I guess it all depends on the spread and how these variables offset each other.  If II availability and getaways are any indicator, I would guess that a prime time week equals many off season weeks.  By artificially narrowing that wide spread of points, you increase the demand (fighting) for the best weeks.



I don't see a bigger demand for prime weeks just because a points system is implemented. In fact I could see less. In a weeks program exchangers don't have to pay for anything beyond the exchange fee so they say what the heck I'll request a trade, and the demand is huge because everyone is trying to exchnage in. Under a points program now you have to actually pay alot more by purchasing more points for prime Maui weeks and you just can't get lucky anymore with an exchange. 

To me that adds up to less demand because its still not going to be cheap to buy enough points t get to Maui. Just because a points program is released doesn't mean people will buy enough points to get to Maui, anyone than they will pay more to buy a Maui week or rent one.


----------



## GregT

L2Trade,

Do you have any idea if future resale purchases can be entered into the system?  I was actually very very close to buying a Ko Olina EOY, but ultimately decided the uncertainty about the system was too much (and that there is tons of inventory at Ko Olina that will somehow find its way into II).

Please advise and thanks!


----------



## m61376

hipslo said:


> yep.  same supply of prime weeks, more demand, since reservations will be opened to anyone who has enough points.  how that will result in prime week reservations being easier to come by escapes me.



One big question, yet to be answered, is the timing of when reservations will be opened up for each group. Will there be home resort booking priority for a month or two before reservations are opened up to the general points pool?


----------



## NJDave

l2trade said:


> Some quick notes about the new system rolling out Jun 20th -
> 1. Existing owners will retain home resort deed, same MF commitments from that home resort and the ability to trade under the old week rules, regardless if they upgrade to the points program or not.
> 
> 2. If existing owners upgrade their ownership to the points program, this will be an annual decision to use either weeks or points.  An owner may convert to points one year and decide to stick with weeks the next.
> 
> 3. The upgrade cost will be lowest during the introductory period.  Owners who upgrade after that period will pay more to do so.
> 
> 4. All unsold Marriott inventory on Jun 17th from all timeshare resorts will be placed into the points Trust.  Going forward, this is all Marriott will sell.  You will no longer be able to buy a specific resort, size, season, etc via retail.  The only decision when buying Marriott retail will be how many points to buy.  The MF for those points will be based on the overall Trust holdings.
> 
> 5. Points received for converting week will vary based on what season/week you own.
> 
> 6. Point requirements for reservations will vary per night, size, location, week of the year, etc...  Marriott will manage point values within the inventory similar to cash values for *nightly* hotel rentals.
> 
> 7. Owners who trade under the old weeks system will continue to control which reservations they relinquish to II.  I was told that Marriott has learned from the mistake Starwood made.  They will not interfere with owner deposits.
> 
> 8. It appears that developer inventory units will be converted and stored in the Marriott point system for points owners, rather than the bulk banking into II as we've frequently seen in the past.  This could be bad news for those not in the points system and encouragement to join it.  The point system will be prepped on day one each year with lots of great availability from developer and unsold inventory weeks.
> 
> Based on #5 & #6, there will be scenarios where an existing platinum week owner may convert into points that is worth less than the points cost of a week during the highest demand week and worth more than the points cost of a week during the lowest demand week of that season.
> 
> The point system is designed to appeal to owners of non-lockoff two bedroom and/or high conversion value weeks, who can get additional nights by staying off season or in smaller units or during lower demand week nights.  The point system is designed to appeal to owners of off-season or smaller unit weeks who will be happy to receive fewer nights in exchange for a prime time stay, or bigger unit, or view upgrade, etc.  Most significantly, the point system is designed for Marriott, who will be able to convert smaller resorts / hotel rooms to points and increase the breadth of the points system network & the diversity of the Trust without the significant capital costs of building future, massive, villa style timeshare resorts.  Marriott will start start to manage timeshares more like hotels and get access to more empty room nights that in the past they could not touch.
> 
> I predict many owners (non-Tuggers) will like this new system.  I do not.  I expect this system will make things more 'fair'.  By 'fair', I mean that owners like me who plan early and often will have far less opportunity to benefit from the failing of owners who don't.  In a word, I say *!$#@+!*.





Thanks for posting this information.  There are over 200 posts since this one even though it is a recent post.  I quoted it for others that don't read the 200prior posts.

We own a Platinum resale in Orlando.  I originally thought that a points program was going to be good for us. However, after reading many negative posts, I was beginning to believe that change was bad.  I now feel differently after this post.  Flexibility provides alot of value to us and it appears that there is not much down side; just some additional minor costs. This program may actually increase the value of our timeshare (depending on restrictions on future resales).


----------



## dioxide45

l2trade said:


> Prime time nights will cost more points (money) than low demand nights.  This is similar to the way hotel pricing varies by seasonal demand.
> 
> This is a big change from the legacy weeks model.  Under that model, every owner pays the same home resort MF per week, regardless which week they end up reserving.  There will be a greater incentive for points only owners to travel off season if they want to stretch their points into more nights.  This would not be the case if the MF prices were held the same per night year round, as they are today.
> 
> Legacy week owners can continue to book their home resort week or trade with II weeks via the old rules.  However, some owners will find it advantageous to convert their week to points and stretch those points at other resorts to travel additional nights (or weeks).
> 
> I highly doubt every points owner will be fighting over the top resorts and times, if they now cost the most in points.  If it were me, more often I'd probably look to stretch my travel points by not picking the most expensive time to stay.



This is what a number of people do in DVC. The low priced times to travel point wise are actually in fairly high demand within the DVC system.

This is different though in a way still the same with a possible Marriott conversion. These people are the equivalent of those here on TUG that have learned how to take a silver or gold lock off week and turn that in to two, three or possibly even four weeks (yes you can get four weeks out of a 2BR lock off unit) in like or possibly even higher demand times. These are people in the know. The people who bought in to DVC and discovered this little gem and have the flexibility to use it also exist in the current Marriott system and suck up those low season weeks no one else want.

You won't see the average family using their prime Beach or HHI week to turn in to two or three doggy weeks in September or October. Their schedules won't allow it. The same type of people stretching weeks currently will be the same type of people stretching points in the future.


----------



## dioxide45

NJDave said:


> Thanks for posting this information.  There are over 200 posts since this one even though it is a recent post.  I quoted it for others that don't read the 200prior posts.
> 
> We own a Platinum resale in Orlando.  I originally thought that a points program was going to be good for us. However, after reading many negative posts, I was beginning to believe that change was bad.  I now feel differently after this post.  Flexibility provides alot of value to us and it appears that there is not much down side; just some additional minor costs. This program may actually increase the value of our timeshare (depending on restrictions on future resales).



I think you will see decent points valuations in Orlando. They will have a tough time explaining to people who bought in Orlando that their units are only good for four days in HHI or elsewhere. Then you won't see many Orlando deposits in to points and then demand will be through the roof for those few weeks. I think it will be fairly easy to move between domestic resorts within the same season with the points you get for your home unit. Remember, Orlando is still the highest demand and most traveled to destination in the world.


----------



## dioxide45

m61376 said:


> One big question, yet to be answered, is the timing of when reservations will be opened up for each group. Will there be home resort booking priority for a month or two before reservations are opened up to the general points pool?



The million dollar question...


----------



## bwenzel

Will there be two pools of inventory going forward, one for deeded week owners/users and one for points?  If so, any new resorts to be built, or existing ones with large amounts of unsold inventory, might be difficult/impossible for me to trade into without converting my deeded weeks into points.

If there will only be one pool of inventory, AND I'm assuming point owners/users get the same priority/reservation rules as deeded week owners, I am concerned that it will make it much more difficult to secure my floating weeks at my home resorts because there will be many point owners wanting those same weeks, i.e. 4th of July at Barony.

Thoughts?


----------



## m61376

I agree that, at least on the surface, the details that have been posted may be the sketch of a consumer friendly plan. We'll have to wait, though, for the big questions to be answered- what exactly does home resort booking priority mean, what is the flexibility wrt partial unit use (can half be used for trade?), banking/borrowing, etc., and the all important determining factor perhaps- how are point values assigned? 

IF it truly is a program that costs $595 for one week or $695 for multiple weeks to join and if it is an opt in/opt out type of system on an annual basis, the only real issue is that it entails a $169 annual fee. The added convenience, though, of being able to adjust ownership use would likely be worth the minimal annual expense, while potentially generating a pretty impressive source of annual revenue for Marriott (if 400,000 owners opted in, this would be an easy 67 million plus per year). Besides the benefits of selling points for sales, this has the potential of a lucrative revenue stream. 

If it is as outlined and the home resort priority remains intact, the program seems like a winner. Admittedly, people who have gamed the system will still be better off in II, because those uptrades will probably be harder to achieve. However, assuming that point valuations reflect real relative value between properties (which will likely be subjective depending upon what you own), I can see it having broad appeal.


----------



## NJDave

dioxide45 said:


> I think you will see decent points valuations in Orlando. They will have a tough time explaining to people who bought in Orlando that their units are only good for four days in HHI or elsewhere. Then you won't see many Orlando deposits in to points and then demand will be through the roof for those few weeks. I think it will be fairly easy to move between domestic resorts within the same season with the points you get for your home unit. Remember, Orlando is still the highest demand and most traveled to destination in the world.




My thought is that Orlando will get a decent amount of points becasue Marriott still has alot of inventory to sell in Orlando and they want to be able to sell more points.  A platinum Hilton sells for more than my platinum Marriott.  The Marriott should be more valuable if this program is what I think it will be since the network is much better.  We own an Orlando Hilton as well.


----------



## m61376

NJDave said:


> My thought is that Orlando will get a decent amount of points becasue Marriott still has alot of inventory to sell in Orlando and they want to be able to sell more points.  A platinum Hilton sells for more than my platinum Marriott.  The Marriott should be more valuable if this program is what I think it will be since the network is much better.  We own an Orlando Hilton as well.



Except that Marriott will be selling generic points going forward and not "Orlando" points, so it doesn't matter how much Orlando inventory is left.

I think it will depend upon how Marriott defines value. If they take the stance, like HGVC, that most resorts are valued similarly for a given season, than we may only see a few different point structures. However, IF they value each resort on its own merit, possibly taking their own rental rates into consideration (since there was some reference to a hotel type value structure), Orlando's value may reflect the relatively cheaper rates that the properties can be rented for on the open market, and on Marriott's own website.


----------



## taffy19

dioxide45 said:


> The million dollar question...


I feel that week owners, who want to stay a whole week at their resort, will have the first opportunity to reserve that whole week. That right is in their deed and documents and cannot be denied.


----------



## Asia2000

bwenzel said:


> Will there be two pools of inventory going forward, one for deeded week owners/users and one for points?  If so, any new resorts to be built, or existing ones with large amounts of unsold inventory, might be difficult/impossible for me to trade into without converting my deeded weeks into points.
> 
> If there will only be one pool of inventory, AND I'm assuming point owners/users get the same priority/reservation rules as deeded week owners, I am concerned that it will make it much more difficult to secure my floating weeks at my home resorts because there will be many point owners wanting those same weeks, i.e. 4th of July at Barony.
> 
> Thoughts?



Yes.  I believe Marriott will add resorts to the system.  The new resorts will, in my opinion, give booking priority to point program participants as there are no home resort deed holders.  After a while, when say, 2 or 3 new resorts or buyouts occur (Marriott purchases a resort from another company and converts it or Marriott adds one of their existing resorts into the system), everyone will wish or wish that they had, taken to option to convert.  If I'm reading correctly, a one-time fee of $595 for a single week deed owner?  If this is the price, I think many will join.


----------



## PerryM

iconnections said:


> I feel that week owners, who want to stay a whole week at their resort, will have the first opportunity to reserve that whole week. *That right is in their deed and documents and cannot be denied*.
> 
> This is how it works with our little independent resort where some people have converted to a point based system. I am still glad that we didn't because the weeks are floating but with a fixed week/unit, it may be different as they cannot take that right away of that particular week/unit ever, I believe. There has to be fine print in the documents where everything is explained black and white and we all better read it. It's too important not to read it.



But the deeds in the trust or committed to this system say exactly the same.

This is probably one of those questions that Marriott will declare a trade secret and not tell us how it works - just that everyone is treated the same.  Which means their computer system will work thousands of times faster than our hand trying to click a mouse.

No matter how the "flavor" of this system seems now this is still a sales tool for Marriott to sell Points and to satisfy their customers so they will buy more Points.

We'll see how much specificity the documents give us that form the rules of this new system.


----------



## PerryM

*More puzzle pieces please....*



Asia2000 said:


> Yes.  I believe Marriott will add resorts to the system.  The new resorts will, in my opinion, give booking priority to point program participants as there are no home resort deed holders.  After a while, when say, 2 or 3 new resorts or buyouts occur (Marriott purchases a resort from another company and converts it or Marriott adds one of their existing resorts into the system), everyone will wish or wish that they had, taken to option to convert.  If I'm reading correctly, a one-time fee of $595 for a single week deed owner?  If this is the price, I think many will join.



This brings up a good question - Can folks, who opt not to join, ever get into a new Marriott?

My guess is no.

Marriott has negotiated a new contract with II and they might have told them that at the new resort II will not get developer weeks since II is a competitor to Marriott in the exchange world now, and new sales will NOT be week oriented at the new resort.

I'm not sure Marriott will give us any guidance on what they will do but 4 years of "Better not buy resale" mean something - new Marriotts are off limits to outsiders.

WM did this to II when it switched to RCI - the basket of resorts that went into the generic unit given to II for exchange purposes let out ALL new resorts after they switched to RCI.

This might weigh heavily on one's decision to join for just the ability to get into all new Marriotts.


----------



## taffy19

PerryM said:


> But the deeds in the trust or committed to this system say exactly the same.
> 
> This is probably one of those questions that Marriott will declare a trade secret and not tell us how it works - just that everyone is treated the same. Which means their computer system will work thousands of times faster than our hand trying to click a mouse.
> 
> No matter how the "flavor" of this system seems now this is still a sales tool for Marriott to sell Points and to satisfy their customers so they will buy more Points.
> 
> We'll see how much specificity the documents give us that form the rules of this new system.


Perry, this is exactly why I believe that a person, who wants to stay a whole week at their deeded resort, has to have an advanced booking window. Split week stays or single nights come after that. It may be fair game for everyone to try to book at any resort but not before all owners have reserved their full week at their own resort for floating or fixed units because the deed to the real estate hasn't changed. There has to be a deadline they can do this in. I believe that Hilton and most other developers have this feature too where they sell for a full week's stay.


----------



## PerryM

iconnections said:


> Perry, this is exactly why I believe that a person, who wants to stay a whole week at their deeded resort, has to have an advanced booking window. Split week stays or single nights come after that. It may be fair game for everyone to try to book at any resort but not before all owners have reserved their full week at their own resort. There has to be a deadline they can do this in. I believe that Hilton and most other developers have this feature too where they sell for a full week's stay.



My guess is that next week we still won't know the answer and it will take months or a year to empirically figure out the answer.


----------



## taffy19

dioxide45 said:


> Oh, I still say its all just a rumor...


You will receive an email on Monday.  I hope we do so we can start a new thread.


----------



## rsackett

Dean said:


> ...They've dropped 9 so far.  I've posted that I suspect a few are already on the chopping block and likely won't be included in any new program, we'll see.  _Ultimately what happens if Marriott drops a resort is those who own at that resort or are in a trust from that resort cease to be a member of the club_.....



I disagree with your analysis.  Once a deed is in the Trust and sold as points all those that own points own some of that resort.  No one will be in the Trust from just that resort.  

If Marriott blocks some resorts from joining and keeps all deeds in individual owners’ hands then they could be dropped just as they are now.

Ray


----------



## l2trade

GregT said:


> L2Trade,
> 
> Do you have any idea if future resale purchases can be entered into the system?  I was actually very very close to buying a Ko Olina EOY, but ultimately decided the uncertainty about the system was too much (and that there is tons of inventory at Ko Olina that will somehow find its way into II).
> 
> Please advise and thanks!



I do not know the answer to this question.  I was careful not to ask too many questions about resale from the perspective of a potential resale buyer.  The Marriott sales reps are there to sell a retail product.  Otherwise, there is no point for them to talk with me.  I imagine that would have ended the conversations and/or yielded unreliable answers to discourage my interest in purchasing resale. 

I am eager for the detailed answers about resale, like everyone else.  I will watch this closely and not buy anything yet.


----------



## Captron

l2trade said:


> Prime time nights will cost more points (money) than low demand nights.  This is similar to the way hotel pricing varies by seasonal demand.
> 
> This is a big change from the legacy weeks model.  Under that model, every owner pays the same home resort MF per week, regardless which week they end up reserving.  There will be a greater incentive for points only owners to travel off season if they want to stretch their points into more nights.  This would not be the case if the MF prices were held the same per night year round, as they are today.
> 
> Legacy week owners can continue to book their home resort week or trade with II weeks via the old rules.  However, some owners will find it advantageous to convert their week to points and stretch those points at other resorts to travel additional nights (or weeks).
> 
> I highly doubt every points owner will be fighting over the top resorts and times, if they now cost the most in points.  If it were me, more often I'd probably look to stretch my travel points by not picking the most expensive time to stay.



The MF would not remain the same PER NIGHT it would remain the same PER POINT and since it takes more points for a higher demand week, those buying  enough points for a higher demand week will pay more MF. Take a look at the Worldmark model:

WORLDMARK MAINT. FEE SCHEDULE


5001 - 7000       CREDITS      $474.24 
7001 - 10,000    CREDITS      $584.81 
10,001 - 12,500 CREDITS     $695.37 
12,501 - 15,000 CREDITS     $786.26 
15,001 - 17,500 CREDITS     $894.12 
17,501 - 20,000 CREDITS     $1001.98 
20,001 - 22,500 CREDITS     $1109.84 
22,501 - 25,000 CREDITS     $1217.70

The problem is that newer resorts end up costing more so the weeks demand more points as they have to charge new owners more to keep growing. (Construction costs rarely go down over long term averages) That is why, using Worldmark again, 12000 credits USED to get you any 2BR in the system, not any longer with Anaheim and West Yellowstone. Older owners complain this is a devaluing of the points.... just like it now takes more miles to fly on any program or costs more points to stay in a hotel room.... The interesting thing to watch for will be if they FIX the points for each type of room at each resort. WM did this so you can still get 2BR Hawaii for 12000 credits. The credit amount is FIXED on build or enrollment and cannot change without a HUGE vote with an overwhelming majority. If Marriott DOES NOT do this..... the potential for real devaluation over time is enormous. If they do not increase legacy owners point allocation received when they increase point requirements that will be a BIG problem!


BTW has anyone found out what the yearly fee will be for point members? Add that on the $595/695 conversion fee. For Starwood it is $129.    ....and will the legacy owners have to pay it if they DO NOT convert to points that year???? Sounds like a fantastic revenue stream to me...if you are a share holder!!! (this may be the downside people were looking for for legacy owners!!!)


----------



## Captron

MOXJO7282 said:


> I don't see a bigger demand for prime weeks just because a points system is implemented. In fact I could see less. In a weeks program exchangers don't have to pay for anything beyond the exchange fee so they say what the heck I'll request a trade, and the demand is huge because everyone is trying to exchnage in. Under a points program now you have to actually pay alot more by purchasing more points for prime Maui weeks and you just can't get lucky anymore with an exchange.
> 
> To me that adds up to less demand because its still not going to be cheap to buy enough points t get to Maui. Just because a points program is released doesn't mean people will buy enough points to get to Maui, anyone than they will pay more to buy a Maui week or rent one.




With points you do not get the "trade up" you have to pay the points for that unit straight up. It is a lot less easy to "work the system" as some here say. Some at Starwood even deposit lesser 2BR with an exchange company trying to get greater season etc. AT THEIR HOME RESORT because they can then get a better unit using one years points rather than more than that. This is a gamble some are willing to take. This does not happen in a points system. The days of getting a 2BR for a 1BR will end in a couple of days....for new purchasers and those that buy them later resale.

Many of the Kauai, St John, and  Harborside Starwood owners, if not using their week, will rent it and use the proceeds to go to Orlando and have "$ in the pocket" rather than deposit for points. If you are willing to deal with teh hassle you end up much better in mosts opinion. Others use teh points to stay for 2-3 weeks although the difference in MF is not sufficiently reflected in the points for most of these resorts.


----------



## dougp26364

DanCali said:


> I agree that it appears one has nothing to lose by joining. But if you consider it carefully, you'll see that's not necessarily the case.
> 
> First off, even if you can jump in and out, you'd probably still owe $169 when using home resort or doing an II weeks exchange. That's around a 15% hike to the average annual MFs one currently pays. You also have the upfront fee which, if the upgrade doesn't transfer on resale, would be money you'd never see back (if it does transfer on resale, I'm assuming an upgraded unit will be more valuable on the resale market than a legacy week).
> 
> This is all about changing the way you make exchanges - home resort use would be more costly in the points system due to annual fees. So if one bought mostly to use, there is no real need to join. If one exchanges, it's a matter of where you exchange to. As I said before, I believe Hawaii and Caribbean Platinum exchanges from a mainland location will not be feasible without buying more points. One would normally have a better shot with II be depositing a strong trader... Of course if all the Hawaii and Caribbean owners join the points system, II exchanges may be tougher but the competition will also be smaller so it could be a wash.
> 
> Rather than say one has nothing to lose by joining, I say it's better to wait and see unless you really think you'll benefit and the conversion price down the road is much higher... Even then, I'm sure there will be conversion "specials" down the road, whenever the points system needs more inventory.



It would be a downside if you had to pay a significant membership fee ($150 to $200 per year) AND still had to pay an exchange fee. The devil will be in the details.


----------



## Asia2000

dougp26364 said:


> It would be a downside if you had to pay a significant membership fee ($150 to $200 per year) AND still had to pay an exchange fee. The devil will be in the details.



I could not agree more.  $595 (one-time), $169 *+ II fees* (annually) could get expensive.  If you trade you Marriott into II for non-Marriott properties, it would seem that points are not the way to go.  If you trade into Marriott properties only, then points are good as long as you do not have additional II fees.  However, I think that would mean not being a member of II altogether as they have to charge you an annual fee for being a member (smaller amount of $, but it still adds up).

Then, if new resorts are added in locations that you prefer to visit, then it would seem that points would be the best way to go in order to receive preferred booking.  I think a picture of "good for all" will be painted in the beginning, but over the next few years as resorts are added, the picture will look "less inviting" for deed owners who did not choose points and later decide that they want to exchange into the newer resorts.  It is hard to say how "less inviting" it will be.  

It would be good to know the amount of time that a deeded week owner has to pay his $595 or $695 (one-time fee).  One month?  One year?  Can sign up anytime in the future?  Any speculators out there?


----------



## dougp26364

I would like to think that the internal exchange program would not have exchange fee's but, Marriott's history to date is to charge a fee for everything. 

One other component would be the issue of I.I. membership fee's. With the two points programs we own, the exchange company membership fee is included with our membership fee's. 

It could be that all the exchange fee's and Interval membership fee's are included in any membership fee and that there are no internal exchange fee's. Or it could be that legacy owners would continue to have to pay the Interval membership fee, a Marriott management fee for the points program and pay exchange fee's of some sort. 

So we could have a system in which there is just the annual membership fee and nothing else or, we could have a system that charges a management fee, still require we pay for a personal membership with Interval and pay an exchange fee of some sort to make internal exchanges. It might be that this new system is to expensive to make it worthwhile to most owners.


----------



## jlf58

points will NOT have a earlier home resort booking window 




dioxide45 said:


> The million dollar question...


----------



## NJDave

m61376 said:


> Except that Marriott will be selling generic points going forward and not "Orlando" points, so it doesn't matter how much Orlando inventory is left.
> 
> I think it will depend upon how Marriott defines value. If they take the stance, like HGVC, that most resorts are valued similarly for a given season, than we may only see a few different point structures. However, IF they value each resort on its own merit, possibly taking their own rental rates into consideration (since there was some reference to a hotel type value structure), Orlando's value may reflect the relatively cheaper rates that the properties can be rented for on the open market, and on Marriott's own website.



The points sold by Marriott would represent the underlying ownership that is put into the trust.  The higher the points assinged to that ownership, the more points Marriott has to sell.  Future decisions on where to add resorts would be based on the cost to build and sell per point.  Orlando should be a good location since construction costs are lower, they already have the sales infustructure, and it is the most traveled to destination which means more opportunities to sell.  I hope that Marriott doesn't get more like Hilton and keep building in the same locations.


----------



## jlf58

don't expect any new resorts soon. They have an unhealthy amount of unsold inventory to sell that will take years 





NJDave said:


> The points sold by Marriott would represent the underlying ownership that is put into the trust.  The higher the points assinged to that ownership, the more points Marriott has to sell.  Future decisions on where to add resorts would be based on the cost to build and sell per point.  Orlando should be a good location since construction costs are lower, they already have the sales infustructure, and it is the most traveled to destination which means more opportunities to sell.  I hope that Marriott doesn't get more like Hilton and keep building in the same locations.


----------



## jlf58

Doug

Its known already. It will  be $159 to use the points 




dougp26364 said:


> I would like to think that the internal exchange program would not have exchange fee's but, Marriott's history to date is to charge a fee for everything.
> 
> One other component would be the issue of I.I. membership fee's. With the two points programs we own, the exchange company membership fee is included with our membership fee's.
> 
> It could be that all the exchange fee's and Interval membership fee's are included in any membership fee and that there are no internal exchange fee's. Or it could be that legacy owners would continue to have to pay the Interval membership fee, a Marriott management fee for the points program and pay exchange fee's of some sort.
> 
> So we could have a system in which there is just the annual membership fee and nothing else or, we could have a system that charges a management fee, still require we pay for a personal membership with Interval and pay an exchange fee of some sort to make internal exchanges. It might be that this new system is to expensive to make it worthwhile to most owners.


----------



## Dean

rsackett said:


> I disagree with your analysis.  Once a deed is in the Trust and sold as points all those that own points own some of that resort.  No one will be in the Trust from just that resort.
> 
> If Marriott blocks some resorts from joining and keeps all deeds in individual owners’ hands then they could be dropped just as they are now.
> 
> Ray


It depends on how they do it.  I was talking for existing resorts.  For a trust they can either tie the points to an underlying week OR to an UDI of a given resort.  Either way your membership basis is based in a given resort and if that week or resort goes away, so do you.  They MIGHT give you options to convert somewhere else but wouldn't be required to.  You are NOT an owner generically in the points system though that'll be the sales pitch if there is no home resort priority.  I can tell you for certain with DVC that this is the case and I"m about 99% sure that it's true with BG as well, Jim can correct me if he knows differently.


----------



## Clark

Fletch said:


> Its known already. It will  be $159 to use the points



Well that verifies (at least what passes for verification in this string) an assumption I have been making -- that there would be enough of a fee that even points users could benefit from free independent exchanges.

Guess I better start working on adding an option to *****.com where userA and UserB can use points to reserve what each other wants and swap for free --


----------



## dioxide45

Clark said:


> Well that verifies (at least what passes for verification in this string) an assumption I have been making -- that there would be enough of a fee that even points users could benefit from free independent exchanges.
> 
> Guess I better start working on adding an option to *****.com where userA and UserB can use points to reserve what each other wants and swap for free --



I wouldn't invest a lot of time just yet. I am sure you will have enough time after we get official verification to implement any changes. By official, I mean verification from a current Marriott employee regarding the cost.


----------



## dioxide45

If there is a fee exchange fee that is higher than the current II fee, I think you will see II do a lot of legwork to promote this and try to get your weeks. I also think a lot of people will still take the gamble and try to trade in II.


----------



## Asia2000

NJDave said:


> The points sold by Marriott would represent the underlying ownership that is put into the trust.  The higher the points assinged to that ownership, the more points Marriott has to sell.  Future decisions on where to add resorts would be based on the cost to build and sell per point.  Orlando should be a good location since construction costs are lower, they already have the sales infustructure, and it is the most traveled to destination which means more opportunities to sell.  I hope that Marriott doesn't get more like Hilton and keep building in the same locations.



Interesting thoughts here.  I would think Marriott would branch out to newer places.  I know Macau China is in the works (not that many from the USA would go).  I'm not sure what the up and coming hot spots are, but I would think Marriott would consider building or buying there.  It would be really incredible if Marriott has a buyout in the works to coincide with the timing of the MVCI retooling.  Talk about a great way to boost your stock price.  New MVCI and bam!, 12 new resorts to go along with it.  I'm not sure who they would buy or partner with.

Overall, I think the target audience of this new program are more "point driven" type people.  People love point programs and love the flexibility of them.  They have become hobbies for many people all the way down to buying gas and necessities so they can receive a free Coke.  People are automatically drawn in by the idea of a new point program.  Especially for big time things like timeshares.  People will want large point accounts with tons of options to fit every need.  I know other companies have had points for years, but Marriott people love points via the Marriott Rewards program.

If $159 annually is all Marriott is asking for, I'll be shocked.  I will be happy too.


----------



## hipslo

Fletch said:


> points will NOT have a earlier home resort booking window



Does that mean that those who do not convert will be competing with ALL points owners the minute reservations open for the prime weeks at their home resort?


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> Doug
> 
> Its known already. It will  be $159 to use the points



So is that a $159 membership fee and then no more charges per exchange, a $159 fee per exchange without a membership fee, Or is there a membership fee and a $159 fee every time you use your points?


----------



## m61376

Fletch said:


> points will NOT have a earlier home resort booking window



Hi Fletch- Hope you will be around a lot over the next week to help us sort all of this out! 

The bigger question is whether points will have the same booking window or a later booking window- will legacy owners booking their owned resort have first crack before generic points owners (whether newly purchased points owners or weeks owners opting to use points for the year)? 

Will I have a 1 month (or even 1 week) jump on everyone else if I am booking my deeded unit (or what was once my deeded unit assuming that the underlying deeds change if one joins the new program)? Or will I be competing with anyone who has enough points to try to book my home resort?


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> If there is a fee exchange fee that is higher than the current II fee, I think you will see II do a lot of legwork to promote this and try to get your weeks. I also think a lot of people will still take the gamble and try to trade in II.



I think something is lost in translation. I can't see Marriott charging to join the points program and then charging an exchange fee higher than Interval. If that's the case, I would expect enrollment to be pretty slim amongst the "legacy" owners. I know I'll lose interest pretty quickly if that's the case. 

There's to much precendent that's been set by other points based exchange systems. Essentially, there is a fee to join and a yearly membership/management fee. Internal exchanges are either at fee's greatly reduced from the exchange companies fee's or free.

I suppose I could see Marriott charging to join, not charging a yearly membership/management fee but charging a fee per exchange (those that use are the ones who pay) but, I see no benefit to a program that charges more than the existing option (I.I.) for exchanging. In order to make that work, Marriott would have to sell fear. I guess some people buy based on fear but I'm not one of them. I know that the DRI manager who tried to convince me that the trust was better used the fear of having to pay SA's as leverage. When they turn to fear, I stop listening and close the checkbook.


----------



## m61376

Clark said:


> Well that verifies (at least what passes for verification in this string) an assumption I have been making -- that there would be enough of a fee that even points users could benefit from free independent exchanges.
> 
> Guess I better start working on adding an option to *****.com where userA and UserB can use points to reserve what each other wants and swap for free --


It depends if there is transactional fee or just an annual membership in the club fee. I may be wrong, but my impression from what was posted is that there was an annual fee, regardless of whether you used your week or the points option for the year. And, if so, that fee would cover you if you just used your home resort, or made a dozen reservations.

IF that is the case, then the only advantage to internal trades between owners would be IF there is a home resort booking advantage or for those owners not opting into the new program.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> It depends if there is transactional fee or just an annual membership in the club fee. I may be wrong, but my impression from what was posted is that there was an annual fee, regardless of whether you used your week or the points option for the year. And, if so, that fee would cover you if you just used your home resort, or made a dozen reservations.
> 
> IF that is the case, then the only advantage to internal trades between owners would be IF there is a home resort booking advantage or for those owners not opting into the new program.



I hope you're right. One fee for all exchanges would probably work well for us if that fee is reasonable. A membership fee PLUS exchange fee's requires some calculation


----------



## Captron

Again, to use WM as an example, you own a small amount of each and every resort in the trust. No one gets hurt if a resort gets dropped, it just ceases to be an option. Ok I guess the people hurt are the ones who love to go to the resort that is dropped or bought because they wanted to go to that resort, but no one gets left in the lurch with a worthless ownership unless.... the whole trust goes up in smoke.

Who is to say what type of system they will use? We will see soon enough.

That also means that MF are based on the total cost of the units in the trust divided by the number of points assigned. New owners should have the same cost PER POINT. Those who have more points to stay in bigger units or several smaller units off season pay more. I wonder what the minimum buy in will be set at. For WM it is 5000 but most accounts are 6000+. The average stay for WM is 3.? days and external exchange is reported at less than 10%, if I remember my numbers right.

Starwood charges their annual fee and no exchange fees for internal exchanges but there system is still not a pure points system in that your points are assigned to a specific unti deed at a specific resort, the points system is just an exchange venue similar to the RCI or Redweek points systems.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> This brings up a good question - Can folks, who opt not to join, ever get into a new Marriott?
> 
> My guess is no.
> 
> Marriott has negotiated a new contract with II and they might have told them that at the new resort II will not get developer weeks since II is a competitor to Marriott in the exchange world now, and new sales will NOT be week oriented at the new resort.
> 
> I'm not sure Marriott will give us any guidance on what they will do but 4 years of "Better not buy resale" mean something - new Marriotts are off limits to outsiders.
> 
> WM did this to II when it switched to RCI - the basket of resorts that went into the generic unit given to II for exchange purposes let out ALL new resorts after they switched to RCI.
> 
> This might weigh heavily on one's decision to join for just the ability to get into all new Marriotts.



Actually, it could be possible. If Marriott points trade through Interval then Marriott will have negotiated a contract with Interval that requires a certain number and quality of weeks are given to the exchange company. That is how Interval will place an exchange value on Marriott's points when an owner want to exchange outside of Marriott. 

What weeks, how many and what resorts won't be know to the general public. My guess would be that you're not going to see a lot of the new resorts hit Interval for the first few years. I don't know that it's a lot different now. Let's face it, when someone pays developer pricing for a new resort, I would imagine they would be more likely to use their owned week the first few years rather than exchange it. In our own case we didn't exchange the two bedroom portion of our Grand Chateau unit for the first two years and we've never exchanged our two bedroom master suite at Ocean Pointe with Interval. 

Eventually, I would expect that weeks based Marriott owners will be able to get into the newer resorts that are points only.


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> I hope you're right. One fee for all exchanges would probably work well for us if that fee is reasonable. A membership fee PLUS exchange fee's requires some calculation



I was just basing it on what was posted before about a $169 annual fee (and hoping that Fletch's 159 was really the same fee but that someone made a typo). 

Think about what a great source of revenue this is potentially for Marriott- $595 or $695 to join and $169 per year as a membership fee. The membership fee alone for 400,000 owners could be in excess of 46 million dollars per annum, if all were to join (assuming there are 400,000 owners- is it 400,000 owners or 400,000 timeshare weeks?), with the initial fee of 595/695 an added bonus. Even if Marriott split the sign on fee with its sales people, imagine the influx of funds- a windfall without selling a single additional unit (or points therein). 

Of course, guaranteed you'll hear "wouldn't you like to go to---, or perhaps I see you own a 3BR already- wouldn't you like to always be able to reserve a 3BR... now it's easy- just buy x,y or z additional points at our inaugural roll out price of $$." I fully expect there to be an initial discount for points and/or a waver of the joining in cost if you add points up front.

I would be surprised if there weren't initial incentives. The bigger question will be if joining will be time limited wrt benefits or costs and, of course, where do resale owners fit into the overall scheme of things, because IF offers are time limited, grandfathering options, so to speak, may be more time sensitive.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> I was just basing it on what was posted before about a $169 annual fee (and hoping that Fletch's 159 was really the same fee but that someone made a typo).
> 
> Think about what a great source of revenue this is potentially for Marriott- $595 or $695 to join and $169 per year as a membership fee. The membership fee alone for 400,000 owners could be in excess of 46 million dollars per annum, if all were to join (assuming there are 400,000 owners- is it 400,000 owners or 400,000 timeshare weeks?), with the initial fee of 595/695 an added bonus. Even if Marriott split the sign on fee with its sales people, imagine the influx of funds- a windfall without selling a single additional unit (or points therein).
> 
> Of course, guaranteed you'll hear "wouldn't you like to go to---, or perhaps I see you own a 3BR already- wouldn't you like to always be able to reserve a 3BR... now it's easy- just buy x,y or z additional points at our inaugural roll out price of $$." I fully expect there to be an initial discount for points and/or a waver of the joining in cost if you add points up front.
> 
> I would be surprised if there weren't initial incentives. The bigger question will be if joining will be time limited wrt benefits or costs and, of course, where do resale owners fit into the overall scheme of things, because IF offers are time limited, grandfathering options, so to speak, may be more time sensitive.



I don't know about you but, IMHO, those fee's will cover the cost of the start up for the program and the expenses. I don't see any profit for Marriott coming from this source of revenue.


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> What weeks, how many and what resorts won't be know to the general public. My guess would be that you're not going to see a lot of the new resorts hit Interval for the first few years. I don't know that it's a lot different now. Let's face it, when someone pays developer pricing for a new resort, I would imagine they would be more likely to use their owned week the first few years rather than exchange it. In our own case we didn't exchange the two bedroom portion of our Grand Chateau unit for the first two years and we've never exchanged our two bedroom master suite at Ocean Pointe with Interval.
> 
> Eventually, I would expect that weeks based Marriott owners will be able to get into the newer resorts that are points only.



On the other hand, you do on occasion see bulk deposits of unsold inventory of newer resorts- look at the Marco units and Lakeshore units, for ex., that have surfaced in II. Don't forget it is still all about sales. The biggest sales tool is still on site tours and guests in vacation mode. These are the impulse buyers that every property needs. You got to get them there to sell - and putting weeks in II gets not only Marirott owners there, but Starwood owners and other owners there. Happy timeshare owners are a salesperson's best shot at a sale.


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> I don't know about you but, IMHO, those fee's will cover the cost of the start up for the program and the expenses. I don't see any profit for Marriott coming from this source of revenue.



I agree that the 595/695 will basically be a wash, although if it turns out to be a sales tool it may be of financial benefit. However, I think the $169 will be found money, so to speak, because the program will likely not be much more expensive to run than the current reservation system and, whatever excess costs there are will probably be passed on to the resorts and reflected in the MF's as management costs.

In reality, today's reservation system does cost money, except that it is funded either by Marriott or billed to MF's. 

$169 per year doesn't sound a lot- but multiply it by potentially 400,000 owners, and now we are talking about 67.6 million dollars- a nice round figure to add to the income column of the annual report.


----------



## PerryM

*My Recap to date*

Here's my interpretation of the new MVCD (Marriott Vacation Club Destinations) from all the rumors (and my input):

*Release date:* June 21,2010

*For existing week based owners (Legacy):*

Costs:

$595 for lifetime membership of one week
$695 for lifetime membership of multi-weeks

Membership is nontransferable when week(s) resold.

Deed's are NOT turned in to Marriott.  Owner decides annually (don't know when that starts) either to use their unit as a Legacy unit or to relinquish unit to MVCD in exchange for one-time Points in the MVCD system.  The number of Legacy Points received is a generic number for the season within resort turned in and varies each year.

No banking and no borrowing of Legacy generated Points.

*MVCD Point Sales:*

100% Points oriented which come from a Master Trust of Deeds.  Points are generated annually (don't know when that starts) and can:

Be banked one year forward
Be borrowed from next year's usage
Be transferred from account to account allowing Points renting to take place (10% probability of happening)
Be converted into MRPs or Ritz-Carlton Points or other Marriott business Points

Points can be resold with a loss of some developer goodies; perhaps reverting to Legacy Points but without a deed.

Legacy generated Points have access to all inventory as of 6/21/10 but NO access to any new units added after that.

MVCD system:

No home advantage
Access to ALL units in system
12 month reservations for one reservation
13 month reservations require consecutive or concurrent usage by same owner
59-day specials at reduced Points
Gifting reservation allowed for a fee
No renting of reservations
Points turned in for II generic reservation to exchange 

Fees:

$169 yearly membership fee
$159 exchange fee
$59 gift certificate
$159 II exchange fee (at least)
$159 to convert to MRPs or other Marriott authorized points

*Points Calendar:*
A Points calendar exists for each resort and unit configuration and each day of the year has a Point value.

Each resort has a fixed number of Points that is generated each year and this number can't be changed - ever; unless a condo is unavailable due to unforeseen circumstances.  However, Points will shift around and within the ENTIRE resort.  The daily Point value will change to reflect supply and demand.  Calendar changes are probably at Marriott's discretion. 

*Exchange Rate Tables:*
Tables will exist, which change frequently, giving the exchange rate between Points and MRPs and any other points Marriott wants to incorporate.

*Small print:*
And of course Marriott can change just about anything anytime it wants for any reason it wants and without any notice and you agree to it.
---------------------------------------------------------

Some of the above is my interpretation of the rumors.

All in all I am impressed with the direction Marriott is rumored to be taking - yes it's Perry saying this and not my evil twin (or is it good twin?).  Will it mean more flexibility over the Legacy system - sure.   Will legacy Point folks get "better" exchanges - well that depends on your definition of "better"; upgrades a definite NO.

Will I convert our one Gold Summit Watch - probably not.

Let me know if I got something wrong and I'll change this post for as long as I can.
------------------------------------

*Wild speculation on my part* (hey, even wilder than normal):

Legacy accounts are really RESALE Points accounts to Marriott - you did not buy Points from them so you are a resale and entitled to resale level Points stuff.

This is why Marriott doesn't care if you bought your current week from them or resale - you're all resale/legacy Points accounts to them now.

Another program will be introduced where you can turn in your deed, to the trust, and buy Points, at a reduced rate, that are not flagged as Resale/Legacy Points.

*This will be by INVITATION ONLY!*  Marriott wants high demand Platinum Plus weeks and not Silver weeks.  This is exactly what Marriott will do when it exercises the ROFR and snaps up a week it thinks will help it; if it every exercises the ROFR again, which could spell trouble for resale weeks.

Just a WAG.


----------



## Asia2000

PerryM said:


> *MVCD Point Sales:*
> 
> 100% Points oriented which come from a Master Trust of Deeds.  Points are generated annually (don't know when that starts) and can:
> 
> Be banked one year forward
> Be borrowed from next year's usage
> *[*]Be transferred from account to account allowing Points renting to take place (my hope)*
> Be converted into MRPs or Ritz-Carlton Points or other Marriott business Points
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know if I got something wrong and I'll change this post for as long as I can.



Sorry to keep bombarding you with the Asia program, but here goes.  As far as I know, you cannot combine accounts or transfer points within two accounts.  I'm not sure if this is what you meant or not.  I think if you owned three timeshares, all three would be rolled up into one points account.  

A while back I looked into buying two Asia programs and combining them.  I was told that I cannot, but would rather have to manage two accounts with two II annual fees, etc.  With limited amounts of vacation (2-3 weeks) I calculated that managing two accounts would be extremely difficult without having points expire after two years.  This would throw an interesting twist into resales if the USA keeps similar guidelines.

The purpose of this rule is to keep you from buying resale points and to, of course, buy the points from Marriott at a 30%+ premium.

I have never seen points for rent in Asia, but rather classifieds offering to book one of the six Asia resorts for a price.  Once again, it's Asia and next week's offering may be altogether different.

Outstanding summary.  Thank you.


----------



## m61376

PerryM said:


> Here's my interpretation of the new MVCD (Marriott Vacation Club Destinations) from all the rumors (and my input):
> 
> Release date: June 21,2010
> 
> *For existing week based owners (Legacy):*
> 
> Costs:
> 
> $595 for lifetime membership of one week
> $695 for lifetime membership of multi-weeks
> 
> Membership is nontransferable when week(s) resold.
> 
> Deed's are NOT turned in to Marriott.  Owner decides annually (don't know when that starts) either to use their unit as a Legacy unit or to relinquish unit to MVCD in exchange for one-time Points in the MVCD system.
> 
> No banking and no borrowing of Legacy generated Points.
> 
> *MVCD Point Sales:*
> 
> 100% Points oriented which come from a Master Trust of Deeds.  Points are generated annually (don't know when that starts) and can:
> 
> Be banked one year forward
> Be borrowed from next year's usage
> Be transferred from account to account allowing Points renting to take place (my hope)
> Be converted into MRPs or Ritz-Carlton Points or other Marriott business Points
> 
> Points can be resold with a loss of some developer goodies; perhaps reverting to Legacy Points but without a deed.
> 
> Legacy generated Points have access to all inventory as of 6/21/10 but NO access to any new units added after that.
> 
> MVCD system:
> 
> No home advantage
> Access to ALL units in system
> 12 month reservations for one reservation
> 13 month reservations require consecutive or concurrent usage by same owner
> 59-day specials at reduced Points
> Gifting reservation allowed for a fee
> No renting of reservations
> Points turned in for II generic reservation to exchange
> 
> Fees:
> 
> $169 yearly membership fee
> $159 exchange fee
> $59 gift certificate
> $159 II exchange fee (at least)
> 
> *Points Calendar:*
> A Points calendar exists for each resort and unit configuration and each day of the year has a Point value.
> 
> Each resort has a fixed number of Points that is generated each year and this number can't be changed - ever; unless a condo is unavailable due to unforeseen circumstances.  However, Points will shift around and within the ENTIRE resort.  The daily Point value will change to reflect supply and demand.  Calendar changes are probably at Marriott's discretion.
> 
> And of course Marriott can change just about anything anytime it wants for any reason it wants and without any notice.
> 
> Some of the above is my interpretation of the rumors.
> 
> All in all I am impressed with the direction Marriott is rumored to be taking - yes it's Perry saying this and not my evil twin (or is it good twin?).  Will it mean more flexibility over the Legacy system - sure.   Will legacy folks get "better" exchanges - well that depends on your definition of "better"; upgrades a definite NO.
> 
> Will I convert our one Gold Summit Watch - probably not.
> 
> Let me know if I got something wrong and I'll change this post for as long as I can.



Of course, let's not forget that not only is this based on "conversations" with sales staff in part, there is also quite a bit of Perry's speculation here. I haven't read anywhere that there will be a differentiation between legacy owners and those that buy directly into the points system after June.

IF Marriott were to create such a schism, and exclude even its most loyal customers from any future properties, I think they would be making one huge mistake. Talk about throwing away customer loyalty. People bought direct with the expectation of being able to trade into current and future resorts. Dividing the old and the new is not in anybody's best interests and, while I could be proved wrong next week, I anticipate you'll have to do quite a bit of editing.

Time will tell who says "I told you so." Hopefully we'll all be mature enough to :ignore:


----------



## bwenzel

m61376 said:


> Hi Fletch- Hope you will be around a lot over the next week to help us sort all of this out!
> 
> The bigger question is whether points will have the same booking window or a later booking window- will legacy owners booking their owned resort have first crack before generic points owners (whether newly purchased points owners or weeks owners opting to use points for the year)?
> 
> Will I have a 1 month (or even 1 week) jump on everyone else if I am booking my deeded unit (or what was once my deeded unit assuming that the underlying deeds change if one joins the new program)? Or will I be competing with anyone who has enough points to try to book my home resort?



This is exactly my question too!  Since every points owner will be able to request a "prime time week" if there is not a differentiation in the booking window, I'm afraid deeded week owners are going to get screwed when trying to book their weeks! 

I hope I'm wrong!


----------



## PerryM

*Echoes of the past...*



Asia2000 said:


> ...
> As far as I know, you cannot combine accounts or transfer points within two accounts.
> 
> ....
> Outstanding summary.  Thank you.





m61376 said:


> Of course, let's not forget that not only is this based on "conversations" with sales staff in part, there is also quite a bit of Perry's speculation here. I haven't read anywhere that there will be a differentiation between legacy owners and those that buy directly into the points system after June.
> 
> ...



My hope of Points members being able to exchange Points is far fetched, I agree, but WM does it.  This would be a goody that folks who buy Points from Marriott get and no one else.  But there isn't anything in it for Marriott and the chance of this happening I'd guess is 10%.

Weeks are out and Points are in - so I believe Marriott will make a difference between Legacy Points and Points they sold from the trust.  They have to keep them separate now and why not make them something the salesreps can talk about:

"Don't by resale Points - you'll be sorry"....


----------



## rsackett

PerryM said:


> My hope of Points members being able to exchange Points is far fetched, I agree, but WM does it.  This would be a goody that folks who buy Points from Marriott get and no one else.  But there isn't anything in it for Marriott and the chance of this happening I'd guess is 10%.
> 
> Weeks are out and Points are in - so I believe Marriott will make a difference between Legacy Points and Points they sold from the trust.  They have to keep them separate now and why not make them something the salesreps can talk about:
> 
> "Don't by resale Points - you'll be sorry"....



I can see a difference between Marriott sold points and resale points, but I doubt there will be a difference between Legacy weeks that owners pay Marriott to convert to points and points Marriott sells directly.

Ray


----------



## PerryM

rsackett said:


> I can see a difference between Marriott sold points and resale points, but I doubt there will be a difference between Legacy weeks that owners pay Marriott to convert to points and points Marriott sells directly.
> 
> Ray



That could be and there are NO rumors of my guess.

But Marriott is in business to sell POINTS in a new system and they might give the salesrep a tool to help do that.

Also Marriott is going to make a difference between resale Points and Points they sell - it's going to be something.  My guess is that Legacy Points will be treated as resale Points.

Welcome to my world....


----------



## m61376

or the difference may be really a continuation of what it is now- and how it was incorporated into the AP program- only developer purchased weeks converted to points or developer direct purchased points can convert the timeshare points into hotel reward points.

It still is a distinguishing factor and, if Marriott enhances this benefit, may be a the benefit it once was.


----------



## RedDogSD

m61376 said:


> or the difference may be really a continuation of what it is now- and how it was incorporated into the AP program- only developer purchased weeks converted to points or developer direct purchased points can convert the timeshare points into hotel reward points.
> 
> It still is a distinguishing factor and, if Marriott enhances this benefit, may be a the benefit it once was.




I am still shocked that people would pay money to convert their Marriott weeks into MR points.  The ONLY reason I could see doing that is if your Interval account has too many deposits and you cannot find a way to use them for 2-3 years.  Otherwise, the conversions are terrible.  Remember, it takes 30,000 MR points to stay at your Standard, Basic Marriott hotel for 1 night.  So, if your MR timeshare gives you 125,000 points (as an example), that is 4 nights.  If your TS costs $1000/year plus the fee to convert, how do you justify paying over $250/night for basic Marriott hotels.  I hope people are using them to stay in New York or Hawaii, because otherwise, they are getting a terrible deal.

Hilton is every worse.  It takes 80,000 points per night to stay at the Grand W on Maui.  That means that a Platinum week in Hawaii from HGVC might get you 1 night at their top of the line hote.


----------



## SueDonJ

RedDogSD said:


> I am still shocked that people would pay money to convert their Marriott weeks into MR points.  The ONLY reason I could see doing that is if your Interval account has too many deposits and you cannot find a way to use them for 2-3 years.  Otherwise, the conversions are terrible.  Remember, it takes 30,000 MR points to stay at your Standard, Basic Marriott hotel for 1 night.  So, if your MR timeshare gives you 125,000 points (as an example), that is 4 nights.  If your TS costs $1000/year plus the fee to convert, how do you justify paying over $250/night for basic Marriott hotels.  I hope people are using them to stay in New York or Hawaii, because otherwise, they are getting a terrible deal.
> 
> Hilton is every worse.  It takes 80,000 points per night to stay at the Grand W on Maui.  That means that a Platinum week in Hawaii from HGVC might get you 1 night at their top of the line hote.



Granted, exchanging for MRP is not the value it once was, but using MRP isn't restricted to only nightly usage.  The exchange rate is much more favorable if you use the travel packages that include 5-night MVCI or 7-night hotel stays and air miles.

I think like you do that it takes more than one week of timeshare to get the most value out of MRP use, and that if you are accumulating MRP only through exchanging your timeshare week(s) then it's difficult to justify the benefit.  But many multi-week MVCI owners also use the Marriott VISA card to accumulate points that, combined with the exchanges and direct purchase incentives (which, granted, are also not as good as they once were), have resulted in some fantastic first-class trips which would not have been taken otherwise.


----------



## Rush

Please see below for embedded questions:




PerryM said:


> Here's my interpretation of the new MVCD (Marriott Vacation Club Destinations) from all the rumors (and my input):
> 
> *Release date:* June 21,2010
> 
> *For existing week based owners (Legacy):*
> 
> Costs:
> 
> $595 for lifetime membership of one week
> $695 for lifetime membership of multi-weeks
> 
> 
> [Rush] First of all, thanks for this, Perry - and for all of your valued thoughts / insights...
> 
> If my plan were to convert 1 of my 3 weeks to points [so that I can break it up into days, and add them to my other 2 weeks], and "keep" the other two - one of which is a fixed /platinum plus week - would fellow TUGers agree that it would make sense for me to nonetheless purchase the multi-week membership - given not only the anticipated difference b/w the 2 memberships being only $100, but also, given that, as I understand it, as per below, we'll be able to decide annually what to do w each of our weeks?  Or, would I appear to be missing something...
> 
> 
> Membership is nontransferable when week(s) resold.
> 
> Deed's are NOT turned in to Marriott.  Owner decides annually (don't know when that starts) either to use their unit as a Legacy unit or to relinquish unit to MVCD in exchange for one-time Points in the MVCD system.  The number of Legacy Points received is a generic number for the season within resort turned in and varies each year.
> 
> No banking and no borrowing of Legacy generated Points.
> 
> *MVCD Point Sales:*
> 
> 100% Points oriented which come from a Master Trust of Deeds.  Points are generated annually (don't know when that starts) and can:
> 
> Be banked one year forward
> Be borrowed from next year's usage
> Be transferred from account to account allowing Points renting to take place (10% probability of happening)
> Be converted into MRPs or Ritz-Carlton Points or other Marriott business Points
> 
> Points can be resold with a loss of some developer goodies; perhaps reverting to Legacy Points but without a deed.
> 
> Legacy generated Points have access to all inventory as of 6/21/10 but NO access to any new units added after that.
> 
> MVCD system:
> 
> No home advantage
> Access to ALL units in system
> 12 month reservations for one reservation
> 13 month reservations require consecutive or concurrent usage by same owner
> 59-day specials at reduced Points
> Gifting reservation allowed for a fee
> No renting of reservations
> Points turned in for II generic reservation to exchange
> 
> [Rush] Any thoughts / info re how far in advance one will be able to book individual dates to tack onto, say, a weeklong reservation?
> 
> I recall there being speculation that the window for booking individual days might be shorter than to book a week...


----------



## DanCali

Asia2000 said:


> If you trade you Marriott into II for non-Marriott properties, it would seem that points are not the way to go.  If you trade into Marriott properties only, then points are good as long as you do not have additional II fees.



If you trade into Marriott properties but your Platinum 2BR cannot get a 2BR with points to places you exchange to (e.g. Hawaii or Caribbean trades) - you're still better off not converting - unless you want to buy more points too...

I think the powerful Platinum weeks at ski resorts, DSV, MCV, HHI, NCV and even Orlando will continue to do well in II for years to come.


----------



## DanCali

dougp26364 said:


> It could be that all the exchange fee's and Interval membership fee's are included in any membership fee and that there are no internal exchange fee's.



This is how it is with Starwood too - $109 fee for 1 VOI, about $140 for 2 or more. Includes II membership and unlimited points exchanges (subject to an occasional housekeeping fee if the number of exchanges exceed the units you own post lockoffs)

Weeks owners (voluntary resorts resale owners) pay for II separately since they are not part of the "Vacation Network".


----------



## PerryM

Rush said:


> Please see below for embedded questions:



My advice to all here is to wait until we have our little paws on the documents and no longer have to guess what to do.

There are so many unanswered questions that I can't say for sure what I will do.


----------



## RedDogSD

DanCali said:


> If you trade into Marriott properties but your Platinum 2BR cannot get a 2BR with points to places you exchange to (e.g. Hawaii or Caribbean trades) - you're still better off not converting - unless you want to buy more points too...
> 
> I think the powerful Platinum weeks at ski resorts, DSV, MCV, HHI, NCV and even Orlando will continue to do well in II for years to come.



That assumes that the Hawaii and Caribbean people ever deposit to II.  Otherwise, it will be such a crapshoot for us DSV, MCV, HHI, NCV, etc owners that depositing to Interval might not make sense.  If we want guaranteed Hawaii, we may have to pony up for more points.  

I can't imagine why the people with Hawaii will ever deposit to II other than wanting to get outside of the Marriott system.  Like I said earlier, here is hoping that they want to go to Vermont, Oregon, etc because Marriott has covered a lot of the map.


----------



## KarenP

*Combining Marriott Reward Points possible?*

Do any of you think we'll be able to combine the new Marriott system points with our Marriott Rewards points?


----------



## GregT

RedDogSD said:


> I can't imagine why the people with Hawaii will ever deposit to II other than wanting to get outside of the Marriott system.  Like I said earlier, here is hoping that they want to go to Vermont, Oregon, etc because Marriott has covered a lot of the map.



In my discussions with a sales rep, he was pretty non-committal about the new system, but he did indicate that he thought it would not be possible to lock-off my unit and deposit the lock-off into the points system.  And that the lock-off would have to go to II.   This was something I'd hoped for in the new system because it would be a great opportunity to build points in a new system from my lock-off.

If this is the case, then I think you will see alot of lock-off inventory going into II, from people who are using their 1BR for personal use.   The question is whether people who don't always use the 1BR for personal use will continue to use II to deposit their 1BR or elect the point system.

As we have surmised before, I suspect this will significantly reduce the availability in II, and may also result in an increase in Direct Exchanges.

All the best,

Greg


----------



## sparty

PerryM said:


> Here's my interpretation of the new MVCD (Marriott Vacation Club Destinations) from all the rumors (and my input):
> 
> *Release date:* June 21,2010
> 
> *For existing week based owners (Legacy):*
> 
> Costs:
> 
> $595 for lifetime membership of one week
> $695 for lifetime membership of multi-weeks
> 
> Membership is nontransferable when week(s) resold.
> 
> Will I convert our one Gold Summit Watch - probably not.
> 
> Just a WAG.



The simple truth is just that - savy owners of high demand platinum weeks will not participate.. Pretty much my plan.. Either go to Barony Beach Ocean Side in summer or rent it on my own.  Either go to Orlando Spring break, week 52, or rent it on my own...  Current Hawaii week 52 owners (most? hawaii owners) use or rent but don't trade, cost/benefit of trading just doesn't make sense.

And the thought of ever giving the deed to Marriott? HAH!


----------



## eileenpat

*Truth or Rumor*

I have been following this discussion for the past few weeks:  Question that I have is how factual is the information?  A close friend works for Marriott timeshares and when we discussed this the conclusion was that the rumors were greater than the actual truth.  I appreciate all the information that has been accumulated here, but I feel like a panic going to settle in if Marriott goes through with this on the 20th to be effective on the 21st!  We own 3 Marriott weeks and I will be booking on the 24 at one of my home resorts.  I really do hope that I do not have a problem!

When speaking with an interval representative, they did confirm that trades this year are difficult due to the lack of available units.  A manager at one of the Marriott timeshares, told me the same thing.  He said that he was very frustrated with the lack of available units for exchange.

I am going to try to think positive and hope for the best.  I will say that if you try to reach Marriott via your assigned representative, it is very difficult!  I had to wait for her to get back to me ...2 days!  She was very sorry but said that the call volume had increased to record numbers in the past few weeks!

Let's hope this works for all of us!


----------



## PerryM

sparty said:


> The simple truth is just that - savy owners of high demand platinum weeks will not participate.. Pretty much my plan.. Either go to Barony Beach Ocean Side in summer or rent it on my own.  Either go to Orlando Spring break, week 52, or rent it on my own...  Current Hawaii week 52 owners (most? hawaii owners) use or rent but don't trade, cost/benefit of trading just doesn't make sense.
> 
> And the thought of ever giving the deed to Marriott? HAH!



Over the years I've bumped into MANY Marriott owners who own 4+ weeks and these are Platinum Plus weeks they bought from Marriott at close to $175,000 - they were buying an alternative to a 2nd home.

For $695 they will ALL convert - what's the downside - they still have their deeds and can use them the normal way or deposit some and try the new system out.

I see this as a wildly successful program and that $695 will quickly increase in price in days to weeks.

I believe Marriott has done an excellent job of handling 400,000 owners and start a new path to selling Points.

Really, from all the latest rumors they sound like they aren't about to make mistakes many developers have made in similar situations.

But Marriott is now thinking Points and they will do many things to get us to buy Points in addition to keeping what we have that they can use to their benefit.

For example:
You own 4 Platinum weeks and are classified as a Legacy Points Account - Marriott tells you that you can buy 10,000 Points, for $25,000 and merge those 4 weeks into the account and all will be treated as a Marriott sold Points account which is much better to have.

Folks will buy into the above without a problem.

P.S.
I look at what's in front of me, do some analysis, and try to make plans and when new information is presented I iterate and iterate and iterate.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

PerryM said:


> Over the years I've bumped into MANY Marriott owners who own 4+ weeks and these are Platinum Plus weeks they bought from Marriott at close to $175,000 - they were buying an alternative to a 2nd home.
> 
> For $695 they will ALL convert - what's the downside - they still have their deeds and can use them the normal way or deposit some and try the new system out.
> 
> I see this as a wildly successful program and that $695 will quickly increase in value in days to weeks.
> 
> I believe Marriott has done an excellent job of handling 400,000 owners and start a new path to selling Points.
> 
> Really, from all the latest rumors they sound like they aren't about to make mistakes many developers have made in similar situations.
> 
> But Marriott is now thinking Points and they will do many things to get us to buy Points in addition to keeping what we have that they can use to their benefit.
> 
> P.S.
> I look at what's in front of me, do some analysis, and try to make plans and when new information is presented I iterate and iterate and iterate.




.


Perry, I am shocked that you are suddenly complimenting Marriott on the transformation to the point program.   Never thought I would hear this coming from you! 



.


----------



## PerryM

TheTimeTraveler said:


> .
> 
> 
> Perry, I am shocked that you are suddenly complimenting Marriott on the transformation to the point program.   Never thought I would hear this coming from you!
> 
> 
> 
> .



I trade stocks and have for 20+ years.  One minute I'm long a stock and 30 minutes later I can have sold that stock and be short that stock.

I simply look at what's in front of me and try to analyze it.

I really believe there are 2 types of people 1) Static and 2) Dynamic.

I'm a dynamic person and make decisions on current information and my impression of that data.

If the rumors turn out to be true this is not my worst case scenario but almost a best case scenario.

P.S.
Of course I can change my analysis if the facts turn out to be not even close to the rumors.


----------



## DanCali

RedDogSD said:


> That assumes that the Hawaii and Caribbean people ever deposit to II.  Otherwise, it will be such a crapshoot for us DSV, MCV, HHI, NCV, etc owners that depositing to Interval might not make sense.  If we want guaranteed Hawaii, we may have to pony up for more points.
> 
> I can't imagine why the people with Hawaii will ever deposit to II other than wanting to get outside of the Marriott system.  Like I said earlier, here is hoping that they want to go to Vermont, Oregon, etc because Marriott has covered a lot of the map.



Yes, what you say makes sense. But not all owners act in an optimal manner.

In the Starwood world, MFs in Hawaii (WKORV, WPORV) are about $2500 for a 2BR. The MFs for a 2BR at Harborside are about $3000. One would argue those owners should never deposit into II because they are better off renting or using or making an internal exchange... II will always be a trade down. Yet many units still make it to II.

I do expect inventory in II to go down. But I also expect competition for the remaining units to decrease as well as people will join the points program...  So in the end I don't think one will see much difference.


----------



## l2trade

Oceans said:


> I have been following this discussion for the past few weeks:  Question that I have is how factual is the information?  A close friend works for Marriott timeshares and when we discussed this the conclusion was that the rumors were greater than the actual truth.  I appreciate all the information that has been accumulated here, but I feel like a panic going to settle in if Marriott goes through with this on the 20th to be effective on the 21st!  We own 3 Marriott weeks and I will be booking on the 24 at one of my home resorts.  I really do hope that I do not have a problem!
> 
> When speaking with an interval representative, they did confirm that trades this year are difficult due to the lack of available units.  A manager at one of the Marriott timeshares, told me the same thing.  He said that he was very frustrated with the lack of available units for exchange.
> 
> I am going to try to think positive and hope for the best.  I will say that if you try to reach Marriott via your assigned representative, it is very difficult!  I had to wait for her to get back to me ...2 days!  She was very sorry but said that the call volume had increased to record numbers in the past few weeks!
> 
> Let's hope this works for all of us!



In the past, Marriott entrusted II to manage a ton of developer owned & unsold inventory.  Marriott owns many, many weeks that in the past helped to seed the massive II exchange bank.  Now, those weeks, which Marriott OWNS and PAYS FOR will go into the TRUST and be available via the points system.  To what extent this hinders the availability and ease of trade within II to another Marriott is anyone's guess at this point.  I predict it will be more difficult, but not impossible.  For your home resort, this should be less of a problem, but that all depends on how much inventory in that season Marriott OWNS and what internal rules they follow to select weeks within it.  I predict Marriott will not dramatically interfere and reduce the best weeks of home resort season availability at the 13 or 12 month mark.  If there is a noticeable decline in home resort availability that far out, owners will be screaming mad.  The new system pitch is that legacy owners will see improvements in availability when trying to reserve their home resort.  

I am keeping an open mind on these points.  There are too many variables that could help or hurt availability under legacy weeks system.  Time will tell.  However, I TRUST the Marriott brand much more than many of their competitors.  I hope and believe that Marriott will not let their massive existing owner base down.  As a non-Marriott owner, I think I will not be as fortunate with outcomes from all these changes.  Marriott is not doing this to help non-owners like me.


----------



## GregT

l2trade said:


> In the past, Marriott entrusted II to manage a ton of developer owned & unsold inventory.  Marriott owns many, many weeks that in the past helped to seed the massive II exchange bank.  Now, those weeks, which Marriott OWNS and PAYS FOR will go into the TRUST and be available via the points system.  To what extent this hinders the availability and ease of trade within II to another Marriott is anyone's guess at this point.  I predict it will be more difficult, but not impossible.  For your home resort, this should be less of a problem, but that all depends on how much inventory in that season Marriott OWNS and what internal rules they follow to select weeks within it.  I predict Marriott will not dramatically interfere and reduce the best weeks of home resort season availability at the 13 or 12 month mark.  If there is a noticeable decline in home resort availability that far out, owners will be screaming mad.  The new system pitch is that legacy owners will see improvements in availability when trying to reserve their home resort.
> 
> I am keeping an open mind on these points.  There are too many variables that could help or hurt availability under legacy weeks system.  Time will tell.  However, I TRUST the Marriott brand much more than many of their competitors.  I hope and believe that Marriott will not let their massive existing owner base down.  As a non-Marriott owner, I think I will not be as fortunate with outcomes from all these changes.  Marriott is not doing this to help non-owners like me.



I agree with these points, and believe that Marriott places tremendous value on their brand -- plus as we have seen from rough numbers, the financial numbers to Marriott are impressive -- and these would be stable, recurring cash flows.   I am also expecting that Marriott will permit current resale and future resale owners to participate without penalty (just pay the $595 fee to join, and pay $169 per year), which also helps feed the inventory availability for points sales.

I continue to believe that the owners of high demand/sold-out units will see significantly premium "point allocations" to entice us to make our units available.  I'm speculating that a 3BR at MOC may have 2X the point allocation of a 2BR on the mainland and a 2BR at MOC will also have a similar significant points premium to entice those owners to participate.   Not sure what to think about Ko Olina though, they may moderate the points requirements as an enticement to show that points really can get you to Hawaii/Oahu (if Maui is out of reach).

It's going to be a major handicap however if legacy points can not be banked for a future year and only be used in current year or transferred to MRPs.  I'm watching closely to see what the program does for this.   

This will be very interesting to watch!

Best to all,

Greg


----------



## catharsis

GregT said:


> I agree with these points, and believe that Marriott places tremendous value on their brand -- plus as we have seen from rough numbers, the financial numbers to Marriott are impressive -- and these would be stable, recurring cash flows.   I am also expecting that Marriott will permit current resale and future resale owners to participate without penalty (just pay the $595 fee to join, and pay $169 per year), which also helps feed the inventory availability for points sales.
> 
> It's going to be a major handicap however if legacy points can not be banked for a future year and only be used in current year or transferred to MRPs.  I'm watching closely to see what the program does for this.
> 
> This will be very interesting to watch!
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg



Has anyone considered that Marriott may be 'forced' to charge more than we think (albeit perhaps after a low 'initial offer') to allow people to convert to points based upon the fact that there are Marriott customers out there who have* paid US$5K for the privilege of converting their Phuket Week to Marriott Asia Points?*
Surely the owners who elected to do that will be less than impressed if converting to points now costs only 595 (and presumable AP and MVCD will be merged?)


----------



## winger

*Skeptical speculation*

OK, how about this - 

I am a bit worried that Marriott will charge low fees upfront (exchanges, annual dues, whatever)...just to lure legacy owners and new owners into the new system.  Basically, Marriott would be subsidizing these fee(s).

A few years down the line when the new system is up and running with adequate membership/units, the Marriott subsidy(s) goes away -* result => larger fee(s)*, maybe much larger.

This is (what I believe happens) similar to what Marriott has done in the past (and current?) when they build new resorts - subsidize the annual MF's, to keep the first few years' of MF's low, to entice new owners.  Once the resort is near sellout, the subsidy goes away and owners are saddles with the higher MF's.

Sorry, for the negative thought, but maybe I've been drinking the Perry-coolaid today : )


----------



## PerryM

winger said:


> OK, how about this -
> 
> *I am a bit worried that Marriott will charge low fees upfront (exchanges, annual dues, whatever)...just to lure legacy owners and new owners into the new system*.  Basically, Marriott would be subsidizing these fee(s).
> 
> A few years down the line when the new system is up and running with adequate membership/units, the Marriott subsidy(s) goes away -* result => larger fee(s)*, maybe much larger.
> 
> This is (what I believe happens) similar to what Marriott has done in the past (and current?) when they build new resorts - subsidize the annual MF's, to keep the first few years' of MF's low, to entice new owners.  Once the resort is near sellout, the subsidy goes away and owners are saddles with the higher MF's.
> 
> Sorry, for the negative thought, but maybe I've been drinking the Perry-coolaid today : )



What's your Point?

Of course Marriott will use step pricing and the low, low intro pricing will go up.

How high and how fast will simply be left to the owners - the frequency and intensity of conversions will drive prices up until they cool and prices will be held there for a while.

My initial guess of $2,500 to convert could easily be met - not day one but year 2.

I believe the hot-shot salesreps are going to be selling Points and the new guy will handle the Points conversion.

But who knows how Marriott will market this - just 3 days and the guessing stops


----------



## taffy19

catharsis said:


> Has anyone considered that Marriott may be 'forced' to charge more than we think (albeit perhaps after a low 'initial offer') to allow people to convert to points based upon the fact that there are Marriott customers out there who have* paid US$5K for the privilege of converting their Phuket Week to Marriott Asia Points?*
> Surely the owners who elected to do that will be less than impressed if converting to points now costs only 595 (and presumable AP and MVCD will be merged?)


I can imagine that his must hurt.    How do you think timeshare buyers felt when prices dropped by 25% for the same timeshare condo they bought less than two weeks ago but it was too late to rescind the contract?  That must have hurt a lot more yet.  What about if you buy an expensive car and then a week later, it is offered at a big discount too or an expensive cruise?  It all hurts when you are at the wrong place at the wrong time for buying a product.  Does that mean that a business can never have a sale anymore because it will hurt a customer who bought just before the sale?  No more computer or big screen TV discounts either or any other big item we buy on sale.  Would you like that?  Nevertheless, it still hurts a lot and you have a right to be upset.

What about direct buyers who find out later that they could have picked up the same timeshare at pennies on the dollar?  I know that they should have done their due diligence during the time they were able to rescind the contract but the developers count on the fact that people do not do this while on vacation.  I doubt if many people would convert today at a cost of $5,000 when the economy is so shaky.


----------



## m61376

GregT said:


> It's going to be a major handicap however if legacy points can not be banked for a future year and only be used in current year or transferred to MRPs.  I'm watching closely to see what the program does for this.
> 
> This will be very interesting to watch!
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg



Keep in mind, though, that II is Marriott's biggest competitor for trades. I think Marriott is well aware that life events crop up and many times people need to be able to defer their trips. If Marriott won't allow banking, then people will turn to II. I think Marriott will offer banking and borrowing to increase participation in the new program.


----------



## m61376

winger said:


> OK, how about this -
> 
> I am a bit worried that Marriott will charge low fees upfront (exchanges, annual dues, whatever)...just to lure legacy owners and new owners into the new system.  Basically, Marriott would be subsidizing these fee(s).
> 
> A few years down the line when the new system is up and running with adequate membership/units, the Marriott subsidy(s) goes away -* result => larger fee(s)*, maybe much larger.
> 
> This is (what I believe happens) similar to what Marriott has done in the past (and current?) when they build new resorts - subsidize the annual MF's, to keep the first few years' of MF's low, to entice new owners.  Once the resort is near sellout, the subsidy goes away and owners are saddles with the higher MF's.
> 
> Sorry, for the negative thought, but maybe I've been drinking the Perry-coolaid today : )



Do you really think, though, that they would be subsidizing anything with an annual $169 cost ad infinitum? Their "cost" (already covered by management fees0 for reservations will not be that different, since people are still making a "reservation," just like they do now or at a hotel. The increased complexity is largely handled by hopefully a good reservation program.

The $595 or $695 upfront fee will cover the cost of development and of any conversion paperwork, and I'm guessing still leave them with a tidy profit at the end of the day. Maybe I am naive, but I think the bulk of the annual fee will be pure profit, because once in place I don't think this system will be any more expensive to run than the current "free" reservation system.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> Keep in mind, though, that II is Marriott's biggest competitor for trades. I think Marriott is well aware that life events crop up and many times people need to be able to defer their trips. If Marriott won't allow banking, then people will turn to II. I think Marriott will offer banking and borrowing to increase participation in the new program.



While it's not advertised I think you'll find that most developers contract with Interval to handle their internal exchange program rather than build their own workforce.  There won't be any indication that it's Interval employee's answering your call but Interval is most likely the contracted labor and call center that's running the system. Contracting Interval is probably the most economical way to run their internal exchange program.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> Of course, let's not forget that not only is this based on "conversations" with sales staff in part, there is also quite a bit of Perry's speculation here. I haven't read anywhere that there will be a differentiation between legacy owners and those that buy directly into the points system after June.
> 
> IF Marriott were to create such a schism, and exclude even its most loyal customers from any future properties, I think they would be making one huge mistake. Talk about throwing away customer loyalty. People bought direct with the expectation of being able to trade into current and future resorts. Dividing the old and the new is not in anybody's best interests and, while I could be proved wrong next week, I anticipate you'll have to do quite a bit of editing.
> 
> Time will tell who says "I told you so." Hopefully we'll all be mature enough to :ignore:



Even when faced with being wrong about so many things, like the cost to join, Perry still looks for the lump of coal in his Christmas stocking.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> My hope of Points members being able to exchange Points is far fetched, I agree, but WM does it.  This would be a goody that folks who buy Points from Marriott get and no one else.  But there isn't anything in it for Marriott and the chance of this happening I'd guess is 10%.
> 
> Weeks are out and Points are in - so I believe Marriott will make a difference between Legacy Points and Points they sold from the trust.  They have to keep them separate now and why not make them something the salesreps can talk about:
> 
> "Don't by resale Points - you'll be sorry"....



Exchanging points is not a new concept with Interval. DRI does it as well. That's why I say there WILL be points based weeks available for exchange with Interval for those that don't join Marriott's points based internal system. Marriott will be under contract to give Interval a certain number of weeks of a certain quality and season. Marriott is also going to want new, non-Marriott blood at those resorts for their sales staff.


----------



## BocaBum99

dougp26364 said:


> Even when faced with being wrong about so many things, like the cost to join, Perry still looks for the lump of coal in his Christmas stocking.



Perry is a smart guy who takes extreme positions to get message board ratings.  He doesn't actually believe half of what he posts.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> That could be and there are NO rumors of my guess.
> 
> But Marriott is in business to sell POINTS in a new system and they might give the salesrep a tool to help do that.
> 
> Also Marriott is going to make a difference between resale Points and Points they sell - it's going to be something.  My guess is that Legacy Points will be treated as resale Points.
> 
> Welcome to my world....



I doubt there will be a difference between resale points, legacy points and newly sold points. At least not anything of major difference. Maybe something along the lines of what Marrriott does now as far as Marrriott Rewards points (resale points might not be able to book hotel nights) or, something along the lines of DRI where resale buyers get the underlying week for legacy weeks but have to pay a conversion fee to re-join the points program. 

You world is filled with far to many negative and unrealistic thoughts. I think I'll pass on your invitation.


----------



## SueDonJ

dougp26364 said:


> Even when faced with being wrong about so many things, like the cost to join, Perry still looks for the lump of coal in his Christmas stocking.





BocaBum99 said:


> Perry is a smart guy who takes extreme positions to get message board ratings.  He doesn't actually believe half of what he posts.



As long as we're talking about Perry I'll confess, too - for some reason when I see Perry's name I always think "Scoop says roasted NOT FRIED turkey!"  :hysterical:   I think when I first started reading here I confused something from him with a post from Scoop about cooking and the imagery is stuck in my mind now.

Who knows, it could be that it wasn't even Perry who was in whatever that thread was; it may even be that Scoop LOVES fried turkey and I got whatever he said wrong, too.  But it's there now in my brain and it just won't leave.


----------



## dougp26364

RedDogSD said:


> I am still shocked that people would pay money to convert their Marriott weeks into MR points.  The ONLY reason I could see doing that is if your Interval account has too many deposits and you cannot find a way to use them for 2-3 years.  Otherwise, the conversions are terrible.  Remember, it takes 30,000 MR points to stay at your Standard, Basic Marriott hotel for 1 night.  So, if your MR timeshare gives you 125,000 points (as an example), that is 4 nights.  If your TS costs $1000/year plus the fee to convert, how do you justify paying over $250/night for basic Marriott hotels.  I hope people are using them to stay in New York or Hawaii, because otherwise, they are getting a terrible deal.
> 
> Hilton is every worse.  It takes 80,000 points per night to stay at the Grand W on Maui.  That means that a Platinum week in Hawaii from HGVC might get you 1 night at their top of the line hote.



I was sort of shocked that I converted my DRI weeks at a cost of $2,995 but, when I looked at the program and, because all we were doing was exchanging those weeks, I found that the points offered not only more flexability but, also were more cost effective to use.

In my case, we paid $2,995 to join and pay a membership fee of $245/year. Internal exchanges have no additional charge, even for exchanges less than 1 week and, I can convert unused points to MF payments, rental cars, flight vouchers, crusie discounts et..... I'm still getting the exchanges I wanted but, in our case at least, I still have left over points I can use for other services. Next year we break even on our initial cost plus the yearly addede management fee. It works for us.

While that system works for us there is no guarentee that we'll see the same return on Marriott's system. We tend to use our Marriott weeks and exchange the lock-off portions. We purchased the units we wanted but, we also purchased larger units than we needed now based on anticipated future needs. It might not be as cost efficient for us to join Marriott's program based on how we use our Marriott weeks. Until I see the actual numbers, can look at our history of how we've used our weeks and how the new program would have compared to what we currently have, I can't say whether or not we'll convert. It looks good at first glance and has my attention but, I'll need to see the details and get the calculator out. My thought is that it will be a very flexable program but, it's going to be a wash as to whether it's more cost effective for us. So it may come down to anticpating future needs and preserving the right to use the new system before we really need it.


----------



## PerryM

*Scoop to nuts...*



SueDonJ said:


> As long as we're talking about Perry I'll confess, too - for some reason when I see Perry's name I always think "Scoop says roasted NOT FRIED turkey!"  :hysterical:   I think when I first started reading here I confused something from him with a post from Scoop about cooking and the imagery is stuck in my mind now.
> 
> Who knows, it could be that it wasn't even Perry who was in whatever that thread was; it may even be that Scoop LOVES fried turkey and I got whatever he said wrong, too.  But it's there now in my brain and it just won't leave.



Scoop to nuts I've got it covered.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Even when faced with being wrong about so many things, like the cost to join, Perry still looks for the lump of coal in his Christmas stocking.



Just try to find a lump of coal anywhere.

Santa long ago started handing out Kingsford charcoal - I BBQ all summer with my Christmas haul.


----------



## dougp26364

GregT said:


> In my discussions with a sales rep, he was pretty non-committal about the new system, but he did indicate that he thought it would not be possible to lock-off my unit and deposit the lock-off into the points system.  And that the lock-off would have to go to II.   This was something I'd hoped for in the new system because it would be a great opportunity to build points in a new system from my lock-off.
> 
> If this is the case, then I think you will see alot of lock-off inventory going into II, from people who are using their 1BR for personal use.   The question is whether people who don't always use the 1BR for personal use will continue to use II to deposit their 1BR or elect the point system.
> 
> As we have surmised before, I suspect this will significantly reduce the availability in II, and may also result in an increase in Direct Exchanges.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Greg



Sounds like a sales rep that hasn't ever seen a points program. In points programs, you just have points. There is no need to lock-off your unit. I would imagine that you'll get a specified number of points for you entire unit. Then, if you only want to use the master suite, you'll have to spend enough points to reserve the master suite but, you'll still have points left over as a 1 bedroom unit won't cost the same number of points as a two bedroom unit. Therefor you'll still have the points from your lock-out unit. 

It's not the same as locking out and getting points for one portion but not the other but, it will have the same effect. You reserve with points at your home resort the size of unit you want, then use the remaining points for exchange. 

For those like me that exchange through Interval this might not work as well. Assuming Interval does a straight exchange for Marriott points, I won't be able to use a studio and attempt and exchange into a resort like Custom House that has only 1 bedroom units. Trading that studio up will become considerably tougher to do if not impossible. 

On the other hand, rather than rely on trying to trade up in size, I could, in theory at least, combine the points from that studio unit with the points of the 1 bedroom LO unit at Grand Chateau and then have enough points for a two bedroom unit within the system. This could work for me as I'd prefer to combine both units for one bigger exchange than try to exchange two smaller units for two seperate vacations. That's just were we are right now in how we use our ownerships. This obviously wouldn't work well for everyone.


----------



## dougp26364

Oceans said:


> I have been following this discussion for the past few weeks:  Question that I have is how factual is the information?  A close friend works for Marriott timeshares and when we discussed this the conclusion was that the rumors were greater than the actual truth.  I appreciate all the information that has been accumulated here, but I feel like a panic going to settle in if Marriott goes through with this on the 20th to be effective on the 21st!  We own 3 Marriott weeks and I will be booking on the 24 at one of my home resorts.  I really do hope that I do not have a problem!
> 
> When speaking with an interval representative, they did confirm that trades this year are difficult due to the lack of available units.  A manager at one of the Marriott timeshares, told me the same thing.  He said that he was very frustrated with the lack of available units for exchange.
> 
> I am going to try to think positive and hope for the best.  I will say that if you try to reach Marriott via your assigned representative, it is very difficult!  I had to wait for her to get back to me ...2 days!  She was very sorry but said that the call volume had increased to record numbers in the past few weeks!
> 
> Let's hope this works for all of us!



I have also noticed a drop in available units for exchange. At this point I believe it's more the economy than anything else. More units that normal may be going through the forclosure process, more owners may be traveling to their home resorts to cut back on exchange fee's. Drive to destinations may be more popular to cut out rental car fee's and airline ticktes. 

I know that in our case we're looking at more drive to destinations and using our home resorts more often. We'll still make three exchanges. All but one will be within the internal exchange sytems. In essence, the exchanges companies will only see one of our weeks rather than the 3 or 4 they've been getting from us.


----------



## winger

PerryM said:


> What's your Point?...(


 Exactly as I wrote - "I worry that..."


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Over the years I've bumped into MANY Marriott owners who own 4+ weeks and these are Platinum Plus weeks they bought from Marriott at close to $175,000 - they were buying an alternative to a 2nd home.
> 
> For $695 they will ALL convert - what's the downside - they still have their deeds and can use them the normal way or deposit some and try the new system out.
> 
> I see this as a wildly successful program and that $695 will quickly increase in price in days to weeks.
> 
> I believe Marriott has done an excellent job of handling 400,000 owners and start a new path to selling Points.
> 
> Really, from all the latest rumors they sound like they aren't about to make mistakes many developers have made in similar situations.
> 
> But Marriott is now thinking Points and they will do many things to get us to buy Points in addition to keeping what we have that they can use to their benefit.
> 
> For example:
> You own 4 Platinum weeks and are classified as a Legacy Points Account - Marriott tells you that you can buy 10,000 Points, for $25,000 and merge those 4 weeks into the account and all will be treated as a Marriott sold Points account which is much better to have.
> 
> Folks will buy into the above without a problem.
> 
> P.S.
> I look at what's in front of me, do some analysis, and try to make plans and when new information is presented I iterate and iterate and iterate.



See, it doesn't look nearly as bad as what you originally predicted now does it. As it gets closer, it looks like those that said Marriott wasn't going to screw it's owners over were closer to the truth than those who believed this would be a nightmare for Marriott owners and would be the downfall of Marriott itself. 

The problem was, there was nothing in front of you at all. You were jumping at shadows and making stuff up off the top of your head. Even when one looked at other points based systems, you original guesswork had little basis in reality. There are NO programs out there as bad as your original projections.


----------



## dougp26364

BocaBum99 said:


> Perry is a smart guy who takes extreme positions to get message board ratings.  He doesn't actually believe half of what he posts.



I've read Perry's posts for years. To date, I think his batting average is pretty low when a reality check is done.


----------



## winger

m61376 said:


> ...
> 
> The $595 or $695 upfront fee will cover the cost of development and of any conversion paperwork, and I'm guessing still leave them with a tidy profit at the end of the day. Maybe I am naive, but I think the bulk of the annual fee will be pure profit, because once in place I don't think this system will be any more expensive to run than the current "free" reservation system.


Well, You would be surprised how contracting labor costs nowadays. See how the IBM's and Accentures of the world seemly keep making more and more profits each quarter, let's just say their hourly rates aren't necessarily decreasing because of the bad economy.  At $150-$500/hr, that labor really adds up.  Not to mention, the ongoing cost of possibly new labor to handle the reservation process.  I am of course assuming Marriott is adding/supplementing any existing reservations system they already have (with the hotel side).


----------



## dioxide45

iconnections said:


> *The New Marriott Timeshare Organization*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It’s official folks – the name of the new timeshare division of Marriott is “Marriott Vacation Club Destinations” which will be launched on Monday, June 21, 2010.
> The website will be: www.MarriottVacationClubDestinations.com
> 
> http://www.timesharewizard.com/marriott-vacation-club-destinations.html



This link to the Timeshare Wizard now has a photo apparently taken in Hawaii. Definitely plans to include hotels in the Destinations program. There are a lot of properties in the photo that appear will be included in the program. Though it is possible that these additional resorts are included since one will likely be able to exchange for MRP and you can then use those MRP to exchange in to hotels.


----------



## davidvel

That photo was posted in this thread a few pages back... I don't know how you could have missed it in this thread. :hysterical:


----------



## DanCali

dougp26364 said:


> I've read Perry's posts for years. To date, I think his batting average is pretty low when a reality check is done.



In some places, a batting average of 0.350 makes you an All Star...


----------



## BocaBum99

dougp26364 said:


> I've read Perry's posts for years. To date, I think his batting average is pretty low when a reality check is done.



I agree.  I actually created a post with a laundry list of many of his predictions and the actual result.  I was astounded at how wrong he was about so many topics.  

That said, he is very smart and I agree with many of his underlying theories.  He takes a kernel of  truth and then wildly extrapolates it to the incorrect conclusion.  I do think he knows this and savors the opportunity to post something bold to get people to react to it.  To his credit, people do come out to post back and forth and the truth does end up coming out in the thread.   

I used to think he was the opposite of Forrest Gump.  But now, I know it is what he wants to happen.


----------



## dioxide45

davidvel said:


> That photo was posted in this thread a few pages back... I don't know how you could have missed it in this thread. :hysterical:



If you are talking about this post, when it was initially posted yesterday morning, the photo wasn't available. If it was posted again, I did miss it. Like you said, not sure how.


----------



## m61376

winger said:


> Well, You would be surprised how contracting labor costs nowadays. See how the IBM's and Accentures of the world seemly keep making more and more profits each quarter, let's just say their hourly rates aren't necessarily decreasing because of the bad economy.  At $150-$500/hr, that labor really adds up.  Not to mention, the ongoing cost of possibly new labor to handle the reservation process.  I am of course assuming Marriott is adding/supplementing any existing reservations system they already have (with the hotel side).



Certainly, millions have gone into software development, training and implementation- but if most of the owners convert, then the initial joining fee alone will approach a quarter of  a billion dollars- that pay for a lot of upfront costs. 

As for on-going costs- well, they already have a timeshare reservation system and cost in place, and presumably this will not be that much costlier to run. Their management fees already cover those reservation costs. That's why the $169 annual cost will likely be largely profit. Any increased cost because of housekeeping or wear and tear will be borne by the owners in the form of MF's, not by Marriott. 

I think the new system, if designed as outlined, will turn a tidy multimillion dollar profit annually from that pesky $169 per owner fee which, while being an annoyance, will likely not be an impediment to most people and likely not discourage participation.

IF home resort priority is maintained and point values seem reasonable to most people, as well as several of questions already brought up, this may be a home run for Marriott. If it allows owners to use part of their week for points and part for a home resort reservation and allows borrowing/banking, it has the potential to have people clamoring to jump on the bandwagon. As always, the devil is in the details, and we will have to see the full program outline.

I can see a real benefit from combining possibly a lock-off and a 1 BR from different units or perhaps different years, combining points to get something bigger or better (or longer), and for premium property owners regaining value that they perceive as losing anytime they trade. I have met Ko'Olina owners, for example, who feel trapped returning yearly, because they feel gypped trading for an Orlando unit, for example, but would really enjoy going there. I have a friend who traded an Aruba Plat. Plus week for a Beachplace New Years week, loved the trip, but felt they were getting the short end of the stick. I know it is a matter of perception, and as far as I am concerned as long as you get what you want you've made a good trade, but others are frustrated if they feel they've traded down. Points, in essence, would be a currency, and higher value owners would get "change" from their purchases, rather than it being an all or none transaction.

Of course, the real test will be in valuations- and whether most people perceive them as being fair. And that's a toughie- because people tend to inflate the value of what they own.


----------



## billymach4

dougp26364 said:


> See, it doesn't look nearly as bad as what you originally predicted now does it. As it gets closer, it looks like those that said Marriott wasn't going to screw it's owners over were closer to the truth than those who believed this would be a nightmare for Marriott owners and would be the downfall of Marriott itself.
> 
> The problem was, there was nothing in front of you at all. You were jumping at shadows and making stuff up off the top of your head. Even when one looked at other points based systems, you original guesswork had little basis in reality. There are NO programs out there as bad as your original projections.



Just hold on one minute lets not all fall into a false sense of enlightenment. We have no idea how these so called points will convert? Has anyone seen a point conversion table and how that equates into a nights stay at a resort or hotel


----------



## dioxide45

billymach4 said:


> Just hold on one minute lets not all fall into a false sense of enlightenment. We have no idea how these so called points will convert? Has anyone seen a point conversion table and how that equates into a nights stay at a resort or hotel



Perry's worst fears could still come true.

If this thing even happens...


----------



## Dean

bwenzel said:


> This is exactly my question too!  Since every points owner will be able to request a "prime time week" if there is not a differentiation in the booking window, I'm afraid deeded week owners are going to get screwed when trying to book their weeks!
> 
> I hope I'm wrong!


The inventory for each portion (points/weeks) must be handled separately.  Thus you're ONLY competing with others in YOUR group on a percentage basis for a given season/week.  Assuming some of the later info is true, for weeks owner that will be other owners in the same season who have not converted.  For points owners that are legacy (assuming the priorities remain) who decide to take their deeded week that will be essentially only other points members who have converted and also take their own week.  It's possible these two inventories (non converted that season, converted not taking points) could be combined and they could all compete together. For points owners using points, they will be competing with every other points owner for the remaining weeks (minus weeks not converted and converted weeks that don't take points) unless a VIP program is forthcoming.



DanCali said:


> In some places, a batting average of 0.350 makes you an All Star...


South of the Mendoza line.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> See, it doesn't look nearly as bad as what you originally predicted now does it. As it gets closer, it looks like those that said Marriott wasn't going to screw it's owners over were closer to the truth than those who believed this would be a nightmare for Marriott owners and would be the downfall of Marriott itself.
> 
> The problem was, there was nothing in front of you at all. You were jumping at shadows and making stuff up off the top of your head. Even when one looked at other points based systems, you original guesswork had little basis in reality. There are NO programs out there as bad as your original projections.



Let's not forget that Marriott is a timeshare organization and as happy as I am to see no huge screw job coming at us other developers have done exactly that to their owners - screwed them.

We'll see next week and hopefully I won't have to put on my sad face and report that Marriott hosed us.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> I've read Perry's posts for years. To date, I think his batting average is pretty low when a reality check is done.



Static or dynamic - some folks think static and some dynamic.

Look how far we've come from the initial rumor "Better not buy resale or the new exchange system will screw you" to the latest rumors which paint a very different outcome.

Those 4 years of "Better not buy resale" may turn out to be bogus and that you can buy resale, even next week, and use those weeks in the new system and play Marriott's game that way.

A final tuning next week will have many of us maximizing our Marriott usage under a completely different set of rules to exploit.

Until Marriott changes the rules again...


----------



## m61376

Dean said:


> The inventory for each portion (points/weeks) must be handled separately.  Thus you're ONLY competing with others in YOUR group on a percentage basis for a given season/week.  Assuming some of the later info is true, for weeks owner that will be other owners in the same season who have not converted.  For points owners that are legacy (assuming the priorities remain) who decide to take their deeded week that will be essentially only other points members who have converted and also take their own week.  It's possible these two inventories (non converted that season, converted not taking points) could be combined and they could all compete together. For points owners using points, they will be competing with every other points owner for the remaining weeks (minus weeks not converted and converted weeks that don't take points) unless a VIP program is forthcoming.


My head is spinning again  . I understand the concept of keeping inventories separate (or at least I think I do) with a non-converted weeks or converted weeks/points program. But if new program converters are able to convert at will on an annual basis, wouldn't everyone booking at their home resort just be competing against each other, presumably from the same inventory? I think the issue will be whether those who convert to points and purely points owners can reserve at the same time, in which case the inventory would have to be separate and I would think home resort advantage would be impinged. Where would members of the program using their owned week fall- with the point allocation or with the week allocation?

IF week owners and new program converters booking at their home resort get to reserve before point owners, then I would think the system would be more simplistic. I can also understand that, for legacy owners, having to wait a month or more to book at their non-owned resort would make intrinsic sense, preserving the home resort priority that many of the other systems do. 

However, where I think the waters will muddy is where do new point owners fall in? They have no home resort priority (unless they sell points tied to a specific resort, but from what has been posted it appears that points will just be generic points. IF that's the case, where will their reservation opportunities lie? Will there be set aside a portion of ownership at each resort for their reservations, or will all points get to reserve just a little later than anyone booking with a home resort advantage? Will legacy owners all get first crack at their home resort? After all, aren't the points of legacy owners converting equivalent to the points of new point purchasers?

I know I am missing something here....


----------



## PerryM

Dean said:


> The inventory for each portion (points/weeks) must be handled separately.  Thus you're ONLY competing with others in YOUR group on a percentage basis for a given season/week.  Assuming some of the later info is true, for weeks owner that will be other owners in the same season who have not converted.  For points owners that are legacy (assuming the priorities remain) who decide to take their deeded week that will be essentially only other points members who have converted and also take their own week.  It's possible these two inventories (non converted that season, converted not taking points) could be combined and they could all compete together. For points owners using points, they will be competing with every other points owner for the remaining weeks (minus weeks not converted and converted weeks that don't take points) unless a VIP program is forthcoming.
> 
> South of the Mendoza line.



I don't see any reason why Marriott needs more than  1 inventory to handle Legacy, Legacy Points, and Points.  I don't see any deed or CCR violation at all from 1 inventory.


----------



## m61376

PerryM said:


> I don't see any reason why Marriott needs more than  1 inventory to handle Legacy, Legacy Points, and Points.  I don't see any deed or CCR violation at all from 1 inventory.


I think the problem arises IF Marriott allows point owners or legacy points to reserve weeks on day 1 (at 9AM at the 12 month mark). Week owners don't want to be competing with point owners or legacy points converted from other properties for those reservations. That would leave everyone competing for those prime weeks, much like your worst case scenarios.


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> My head is spinning again  . I understand the concept of keeping inventories separate (or at least I think I do) with a non-converted weeks or converted weeks/points program. But if new program converters are able to convert at will on an annual basis, wouldn't everyone booking at their home resort just be competing against each other, presumably from the same inventory? I think the issue will be whether those who convert to points and purely points owners can reserve at the same time, in which case the inventory would have to be separate and I would think home resort advantage would be impinged. Where would members of the program using their owned week fall- with the point allocation or with the week allocation?
> 
> IF week owners and new program converters booking at their home resort get to reserve before point owners, then I would think the system would be more simplistic. I can also understand that, for legacy owners, having to wait a month or more to book at their non-owned resort would make intrinsic sense, preserving the home resort priority that many of the other systems do.
> 
> However, where I think the waters will muddy is where do new point owners fall in? They have no home resort priority (unless they sell points tied to a specific resort, but from what has been posted it appears that points will just be generic points. IF that's the case, where will their reservation opportunities lie? Will there be set aside a portion of ownership at each resort for their reservations, or will all points get to reserve just a little later than anyone booking with a home resort advantage? Will legacy owners all get first crack at their home resort? After all, aren't the points of legacy owners converting equivalent to the points of new point purchasers?
> 
> I know I am missing something here....


Sorry, I'm assuming some of the recent info is correct including that legacy owners that convert will have the option of using their week within their season OR taking the points. I was mostly addressing that group.  The question is how would Marriott determine the pool of weeks for them to pull from WHEN they want their week  and not points and I see 2 options.  One is 3 inventories of weeks, weeks that come out of the points inventory before the points then the weeks available to anyone on points.  The other options is to simply lump those that haven't converted AND those that have converted but want their weeks that year into one category and let them compete with each other.  Don't know what the legalities of each method.  Someone who has converted but wants their week will of necessity come before other points owners for a given week.  As I was thinking about this issue today I'm wondering if the easiest reservation might be those that have converted but do want their week.



PerryM said:


> I don't see any reason why Marriott needs more than  1 inventory to handle Legacy, Legacy Points, and Points.  I don't see any deed or CCR violation at all from 1 inventory.


They have to have AT LEAST 2 groupings, one for non converted and one for converted.  In essence this will work like other resorts that have more than one timesharing component within a single resort (KCR, Papakea, Pono Kai, etc).  The only difference here is that the TWO companies will be under the Marriott umbrella and will share services when applicable and appropriate.  They might even end up with different total maint fees as we go forward.


----------



## taffy19

dioxide45 said:


> If you are talking about this post, when it was initially posted yesterday morning, the photo wasn't available. If it was posted again, I did miss it. Like you said, not sure how.


GregT posted this picture two days ago so the Timeshare Wizard copied it from him because the pictures are identical.  I'll bet they are getting some of the news or leaks from this forum here and then decide what to post or not.  It's quite different from the "beatthestreet.com" or whatever it used to be called.  That was a great website for finding out the real scoop in what was new in this industry. Some of you must remember it.

I Googled for the title "Marriott Vacation Destinations" and this was the only website that popped up at that moment except for several Marriott web pages so the new name must be in their tag line already.  Some of them are quite interesting to have a look at.   Their new web page should be working soon too.


----------



## taffy19

dougp26364 said:


> While it's not advertised I think you'll find that most developers contract with Interval to handle their internal exchange program rather than build their own workforce.  There won't be any indication that it's Interval employee's answering your call but Interval is most likely the contracted labor and call center that's running the system. Contracting Interval is probably the most economical way to run their internal exchange program.


This is most likely the reason why they signed a new contract with II but the hotel reservations, that may now also include all the timeshare resorts all over the world, may be handled through the Marriott too.

One time, I did a vacation package with a Marriott Vacation Club person, who knew what he was doing.  An other time, during the night, I went straight through the Marriott Rewards 800 number and they took care of it also.


----------



## dougp26364

billymach4 said:


> Just hold on one minute lets not all fall into a false sense of enlightenment. We have no idea how these so called points will convert? Has anyone seen a point conversion table and how that equates into a nights stay at a resort or hotel



I believe that if you look at historical data from the many points systems that already exist you'll see that there is little reason to believe that Perry's worst fears will ever be realized. There's just to much history available for anyone to come to the wild predictions Perry has made.

Now don't mistake my comment as an indication I believe this will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. There are those who will find it to be a great program for their situations, those that find they can take it or leave it and those that find it a complete waste of money. There are legitimate concerns about future availability going forward but, other programs seems to manage just fine. Marriott has a unique owner priority set up with Interval and, no one knows yet how Marriott will distibute developer inventory. So it's a concern. 

I'm still waiting for the hard copy to read. I'm not sure if this will work for us or not. While I love both HGVC and DRI's systems, the way we use our Marriott timeshare differs from those situations and I might not be able to say the same about a points based Marriott program. The legacy week concept has my interest. The cost will be the determining factor along with the way in whcih I can utilize the points.


----------



## m61376

Dean said:


> Sorry, I'm assuming some of the recent info is correct including that legacy owners that convert will have the option of using their week within their season OR taking the points. I was mostly addressing that group.  The question is how would Marriott determine the pool of weeks for them to pull from WHEN they want their week  and not points and I see 2 options.  One is 3 inventories of weeks, weeks that come out of the points inventory before the points then the weeks available to anyone on points.  The other options is to simply lump those that haven't converted AND those that have converted but want their weeks that year into one category and let them compete with each other.  Don't know what the legalities of each method.  Someone who has converted but wants their week will of necessity come before other points owners for a given week.  As I was thinking about this issue today I'm wondering if the easiest reservation might be those that have converted but do want their week.
> 
> They have to have AT LEAST 2 groupings, one for non converted and one for converted.  In essence this will work like other resorts that have more than one timesharing component within a single resort (KCR, Papakea, Pono Kai, etc).  The only difference here is that the TWO companies will be under the Marriott umbrella and will share services when applicable and appropriate.  They might even end up with different total maint fees as we go forward.



Dean- Do you think it will be logistically possible to continually calculate the percentage of each available reservation which should be allocated to each group, since the percentage of legacy week owners who have converted but opt to use their owned week will constantly be in flux? 

The other question is how the reservation sequence will work. I get that regular non-converted week owners have to be able to reserve as usual, presumably from a pool proportional to their ownership.

What I don't get (and I think it's just me missing something here) is how it will work for legacy converted weeks, who will be opting in and out of a week/point system as they see fit (and possibly using some of each in a given year by splitting their week, if different halves of a lock-off can be used differently)? Will those week owners get first crack at the weeks reserved for points owners? Will it be a third inventory cache? When will legacy points get to reserve at non-home resorts? When will new points owners get to make their reservations, since they won't have a so-called home resort?  

I think I need an exchanging for dummies outline


----------



## RandR

m61376 said:


> I think the problem arises IF Marriott allows point owners or legacy points to reserve weeks on day 1 (at 9AM at the 12 month mark). Week owners don't want to be competing with point owners or legacy points converted from other properties for those reservations. That would leave everyone competing for those prime weeks, much like your worst case scenarios.



I don't see how they could do this.  From what I have learned here, a weeks owner is guaranteed to be able to reserve a week at his/her home resort in the season that they bought as long as they do it within the appropriate timeframe.  That is why there have to be 2 (at least 2) sets of inventory.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Let's not forget that Marriott is a timeshare organization and as happy as I am to see no huge screw job coming at us other developers have done exactly that to their owners - screwed them.
> 
> We'll see next week and hopefully I won't have to put on my sad face and report that Marriott hosed us.



That's true about other companies but, those are a far cry from Marriott with the possible exception of Starwood. I'm still perplexed by how unhappy Starwood owners appear to be on these forums. 

Companies I shy away from would be Festiva, Celebrity and Westgate. There are others that I would consider marginal. Marriott has a 25 year history of treating their owners reasonably well. Betting that's going to change would be betting against the trend or, betting the long shot. I prefer to give Marriott the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Not forgetting that we haven't seen anything in writing, I could still be proven wrong.

I still hold reservations about the talk of this legacy owner concept. I can see good things with this prospect but, like you, I can see where owners could get nickel and dimed to death as well. Marriott does have a history of charging a fee for everything an owner does. It's not unreasonable to see fee upon fee for owners who want to switch hit under this legacy plan. I'm wary of that potential issue with this plan when I look at Marriott's fee's as they are today. If Marriott hits owners with a fee for everything then this program could still arrive DOA. We should be able to see in a few more days.


----------



## dougp26364

RandR said:


> I don't see how they could do this.  From what I have learned here, a weeks owner is guaranteed to be able to reserve a week at his/her home resort in the season that they bought as long as they do it within the appropriate timeframe.  That is why there have to be 2 (at least 2) sets of inventory.



Marriott will have to keep inventory seperated. If there are 1000 unit weeks in a season and 250 of those weeks are in points and 750 or those weeks are in the traditional program, then once a week is assigned, either points or weeks based, that week is removed from the potential pool. But, I can see them ALL competing for the same weeks. The only thing is once the 250 points weeks are gone, no other points owner will be able to reserve a week even if weeks remain. The remaining 750 weeks that are weeks based MUST be held for those owners to either use or reserve and deposit for exchange.


----------



## PerryM

m61376 said:


> I think the problem arises IF Marriott allows point owners or legacy points to reserve weeks on day 1 (at 9AM at the 12 month mark). Week owners don't want to be competing with point owners or legacy points converted from other properties for those reservations. That would leave everyone competing for those prime weeks, much like your worst case scenarios.



I don't think Marriott will ever tell us how it works internally and thus why go through the hassle of multiple inventories?

ALL inventory comes from the deeds and a deed is a deed.


----------



## taffy19

dougp26364 said:


> Marriott will have to keep inventory seperated. If there are 1000 unit weeks in a season and 250 of those weeks are in points and 750 or those weeks are in the traditional program, then once a week is assigned, either points or weeks based, that week is removed from the potential pool. But, I can see them ALL competing for the same weeks. The only thing is once the 250 points weeks are gone, no other points owner will be able to reserve a week even if weeks remain. The remaining 750 weeks that are weeks based MUST be held for those owners to either use or reserve and deposit for exchange.


I don't see either how they can mix up these two pools.  What happens to a Legacy week owner if he wants to stay a full week at his resort?  He must be able to book earlier or all the weeks may have holes in them because of week-end reservations?  When people have to fly to their destination, they most likely will want to stay the full seven days.  They must have an answer to that already. I believe that they will have a head-start over the pure point users.  What about the Legacy owners, who decide to take points instead for a certain year?  Will they convert to points to make shorter stays and what are the chances for pure point owners to stay a whole week at a resort? It's giving me a headache thinking about it.


----------



## PerryM

iconnections said:


> I don't see either how they can mix up these two pools.  What happens to a Legacy week owner if he wants to stay a full week at this resort?  He must be able to book earlier or all the weeks may have holes in them because of week-end reservations?  When people have to fly to their destination, they most likely will want to stay the full seven days.  They must have an answer to that already. I believe that they will have a head-start over the pure point users.  What about the Legacy owners, who decide to take points instead for a certain year?  Will they convert to points to make shorter stays and what are the chances for pure point owners to stay a whole week at a resort? It's giving me a headache thinking about it.



Marriott can address this problem several ways:

Just ignore it
Allow less than 7 day reservations to fill gaps in calendar at 90 days

Either one is ok as far as I can imagine.  I'd have to read each resorts deeds and CCRs to see if less than 7-day reservations is even mentioned.  If not Marriott can handle them any way it wants.


----------



## RandR

PerryM said:


> I don't think Marriott will ever tell us how it works internally and thus why go through the hassle of multiple inventories?
> 
> ALL inventory comes from the deeds and a deed is a deed.



They have to keep it separate.  If someone sues, the info would be easy to find out.  They have a contractual obligation to legacy owners.  They don't have to make it easy for them but they can't violate the contract.


----------



## rickandcindy23

There were over 5K views on this thread just today.  I think you guys have quite an audience of looky-loos.  I wonder how many are salespeople.   

I hope this system is good for all involved and not just another way for Marriott to plunge the resale value of what you all own.  I won't be buying a resale now, even though I have been considering it.  It's too risky.  

I will be watching the count tomorrow, just for grins.


----------



## PerryM

RandR said:


> They have to keep it separate.  If someone sues, the info would be easy to find out.  They have a contractual obligation to legacy owners.  They don't have to make it easy for them but they can't violate the contract.



Marriott can't allow a reservation to take place unless a deed is there to back it up.  They can't just allow a reservation at week 52 unless a deed has been either put into the trust or put up by a Legacy owner.

No need for multiple inventories.

P.S.

It's going to be fun to watch how Marriott allows Legacy owners to deposit their usage into the system 12 months out with 13 month reservations.

P.P.S.

There is a case for multiple inventories and that's for NEW Marriott Resorts - Marriott can make up any rules it wants for those guys; like 14 month reservations.  Of course Legacy Points won't be able to snag anything in new Marriotts - have to buy Points from Marriott to get there.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Static or dynamic - some folks think static and some dynamic.
> 
> Look how far we've come from the initial rumor "Better not buy resale or the new exchange system will screw you" to the latest rumors which paint a very different outcome.
> 
> Those 4 years of "Better not buy resale" may turn out to be bogus and that you can buy resale, even next week, and use those weeks in the new system and play Marriott's game that way.
> 
> A final tuning next week will have many of us maximizing our Marriott usage under a completely different set of rules to exploit.
> 
> Until Marriott changes the rules again...



The problem with the resale owners will get screwed is that it appears to be coming only from the salesmen. I wonder if salesmen have a vested interest in making people be afraid to buy resale.  

We both know the rules will change again. Timeshare has always changed and has to change to fit the current trends. How popular do you think timeshare would be if they only sold fixed weeks and there were no exchange companies? Timeshare HAS to evolve or it will die.


----------



## dougp26364

iconnections said:


> I don't see either how they can mix up these two pools.  What happens to a Legacy week owner if he wants to stay a full week at his resort?  He must be able to book earlier or all the weeks may have holes in them because of week-end reservations?  When people have to fly to their destination, they most likely will want to stay the full seven days.  They must have an answer to that already. I believe that they will have a head-start over the pure point users.  What about the Legacy owners, who decide to take points instead for a certain year?  Will they convert to points to make shorter stays and what are the chances for pure point owners to stay a whole week at a resort? It's giving me a headache thinking about it.



I don't think anyone will have a head start other than mult. week owners and the 13 month rule. If points inventory at a particular resort is exhausted, then points owners only hope to get into that resort would be through external exchange with Interval. Legacy owners who accept points will have their weeks placed into the point pool. Those that elect not to participate in points for that year will keep their ownership in the weeks pool. In the end, points + weeks will have to equal 100% of the days available to be booked.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Marriott can't allow a reservation to take place unless a deed is there to back it up.  They can't just allow a reservation at week 52 unless a deed has been either put into the trust or put up by a Legacy owner.
> 
> No need for multiple inventories.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> It's going to be fun to watch how Marriott allows Legacy owners to deposit their usage into the system 12 months out with 13 month reservations.
> 
> P.P.S.
> 
> There is a case for multiple inventories and that's for NEW Marriott Resorts - Marriott can make up any rules it wants for those guys; like 14 month reservations.  Of course Legacy Points won't be able to snag anything in new Marriotts - have to buy Points from Marriott to get there.



Sure there's a need for seperate or multiple inventory's. If I'm a deeded week owner, I expect to be able to book a week in my season. If points owners are allowed to reserve all the weeks in my season, then Marriott has violated the terms of our agreement for usage. Therefore there MUST be seperate invnetory's to assure that legacy owners have adaquate access to their deeded weeks.


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> Dean- Do you think it will be logistically possible to continually calculate the percentage of each available reservation which should be allocated to each group, since the percentage of legacy week owners who have converted but opt to use their owned week will constantly be in flux?
> 
> The other question is how the reservation sequence will work. I get that regular non-converted week owners have to be able to reserve as usual, presumably from a pool proportional to their ownership.
> 
> What I don't get (and I think it's just me missing something here) is how it will work for legacy converted weeks, who will be opting in and out of a week/point system as they see fit (and possibly using some of each in a given year by splitting their week, if different halves of a lock-off can be used differently)? Will those week owners get first crack at the weeks reserved for points owners? Will it be a third inventory cache? When will legacy points get to reserve at non-home resorts? When will new points owners get to make their reservations, since they won't have a so-called home resort?
> 
> I think I need an exchanging for dummies outline


I do not think it would not be difficult to manage the pools or rooms as I mentioned, either way.  Actually they have to at least for 2 groups in the points pool because a given season will have X rooms minus the number that take their room/week instead of points.

In my way of thinking the reservation timing from one group doesn't matter if they are run totally independently.  All that really matters is that those that are in points and want their week out, have a chance to do so before the other points owners have access.

Other points systems do this already.  For BG and RCI points, you take your week at 12 months out instead of points.  IF you take your week, that's simply one less week they have to work with on the points side that year.  My assumption would be that you'd have to take your entire unit out in any year you forego the points.  I would doubt you'd have the option of taking points on a studio and using the 1 BR or other variations.  The other way is possible but far less likely.  Also I believe someone suggested in the last day or so that my assumption was the way it would be.



dougp26364 said:


> I don't think anyone will have a head start other than mult. week owners and the 13 month rule. If points inventory at a particular resort is exhausted, then points owners only hope to get into that resort would be through external exchange with Interval. Legacy owners who accept points will have their weeks placed into the point pool. Those that elect not to participate in points for that year will keep their ownership in the weeks pool. In the end, points + weeks will have to equal 100% of the days available to be booked.


I'm doubting the 13 month rules survives this long term but we'll see, I hope it does.  My assumptions of what we'll lose long term on the weeks side is this and the II internal trading preference.


----------



## JimIg23

dougp26364 said:


> Sure there's a need for seperate or multiple inventory's. If I'm a deeded week owner, I expect to be able to book a week in my season. If points owners are allowed to reserve all the weeks in my season, then Marriott has violated the terms of our agreement for usage. Therefore there MUST be seperate invnetory's to assure that legacy owners have adaquate access to their deeded weeks.



I agree with that and I dont think they would do anything to go against that theory.  

The biggest issue will be what is available in specific timeframes within the season.  What is to stop Marriott from allowing 14 month booking for point holders then point holder from reserving 95% of the summer NCV weeks? Once point holders hit their % cap, they cannot book anymore platimun weeks.  It will leave the deeded owners with the less valuable or desired times within Platinum season.  Technically, Marriott will be able to say platinum deed holder do have weeks to reserve, but in reality it is the less desirable weeks.  That is my main concern.


----------



## Dean

JimIg23 said:


> I agree with that and I dont think they would do anything to go against that theory.
> 
> The biggest issue will be what is available in specific timeframes within the season.  What is to stop Marriott from allowing 14 month booking for point holders then point holder from reserving 95% of the summer NCV weeks? Once point holders hit their % cap, they cannot book anymore platimun weeks.  It will leave the deeded owners with the less valuable or desired times within Platinum season.  Technically, Marriott will be able to say platinum deed holder do have weeks to reserve, but in reality it is the less desirable weeks.  That is my main concern.


I don't believe they could legally or technically within the rules do this.  They will have to have separate inventory on a weekly basis.  They will need to make a decision of how many units within a given week are available to each group and not cross over unless someone converts mid cycle.  Really the only way I think they can reasonably do it is by % then make a decision of exactly how many weeks once you see where the line lies.  Say that there are 11 units and the season is 10 weeks and 56 of the owners convert.  That's 51% and you can't perfectly divide up 51% every week.  In reality they'd likely just take 50% for each but that leaves one unit unaccounted for on the fence each week.  Since you can't split a unit in a single (reasonably), in this situation I'd expect them to allot 5 units to weeks  and 6 to points some weeks and the reverse other weeks.  Of course 11 units is small but when you account for view types and start dates, it's a real world example.  Take crystal shores with 3 view types, 4 start days and only 71 units (67 in use) and Marriott already owning 6 roughly 60% of the inventory.


----------



## PerryM

*How many times does a 6-shooter shoot on TV - 8 times?*



dougp26364 said:


> Sure there's a need for seperate or multiple inventory's. If I'm a deeded week owner, I expect to be able to book a week in my season. If points owners are allowed to reserve all the weeks in my season, then Marriott has violated the terms of our agreement for usage. Therefore there MUST be seperate invnetory's to assure that legacy owners have adaquate access to their deeded weeks.



Imagine it's 8 AM CST in November and it's 13 months before week 52 opens at Park City.  Marriott's salesreps have been selling thousands of owners the dream of New Year's Eve on the slopes at Park City.

Ding - it's 8 AM and 5,000 folks click the mouse to make a reservation....

Well this ain't TV and there are only 200 villas at MountainSide and 200 at Summit Watch (approximate) and only 400 owners can get those reservations - at the very max.  Throw out 50% of the inventory at 13 months and only 200 reservations can be issued at the max.

Of course Marriott has to have a deed behind any available reservation and that's part of the job of the Points/Weeks Calendar - it has to be loaded with deeds in order for reservations to be issued.  They can't fudge this.  Just like right now - "No reservations left".

So only 1 pool of reservations needs to be kept.

When Marriott builds new Point oriented Resorts there has to be 2 pools of inventory - one for Resale Points/Legacy Points and one for Point Resorts which probably will keep out those kinds of folks...

A deed is a deed....indeed.


----------



## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Sure there's a need for seperate or multiple inventory's. If I'm a deeded week owner, I expect to be able to book a week in my season. If points owners are allowed to reserve all the weeks in my season, then Marriott has violated the terms of our agreement for usage. Therefore there MUST be seperate invnetory's to assure that legacy owners have adaquate access to their deeded weeks.



NO!

A deed spells out the ownership and usage rights to the holder of that deed.

Marriott has 1 inventory right now and its pre-loaded with deeds and the range of calendar dates any one deed is open for.  Once a reservation is made for the week the deed is removed from inventory.

There isn't any difference between what Marriott does now and what it needs to do for Resale/Legacy Points owners - none.

Now sales wise there is a hell of a difference - as of today Marriott can't hawk week 52 at Maui since it has no deeds to back it up.

Starting 6/21/10 Marriott will ONLY sell week 52 at Maui or whatever week you tell them is your family's favorite week to vacation.  It's up to the new Points owner to figure out that they want what everyone wants and they need to buy more Points to beat out the competition for next year.

Marriott simply expanded a 1 byte identifier to each deed record - that byte identifies who is the owner of the deed e.g. 1) Legacy owner, 2) Legacy owner who relinquished deed this year 3) Resale owner, 4) Points owner.  They have had this field all the time just added 2 new IDs which doesn't yet exist - the 100% Points owner starting 6/21/10 and Legacy owners relinquishing their deed to the new system.

Now if you want to say that's 4 inventories I guess I can understand that.  Heck there could be many more but there is but one inventory of deeds to load the 2 reservation systems now.

This same one inventory determines who can cash in deeds for MRPs too.

I'm now guessing we are talking about the same exact thing - just an ID for each deed to keep track of who has the ability to reserve that deed.

This is my misunderstanding - we are talking about the same exact thing.

I have one of those men-in-black memory erasing gizmos (comes standard on the new iPhone 4)  so I'm just going to erase the last 5-minutes of memory.

Poof...


----------



## NJMOM2

27 more post needed to pass the Aruba thread.  I think today is the day!:rofl:


----------



## m61376

Dean-
Let me see if I am getting this- are you saying basically that: 
-week owners who decide to stay as is will have a proportionate number of weeks to reserve of each week in their season according to the percentage of week owners and will get to make their reservations at 12 months (or 13 months if they retain the 13 month rule)
-legacy week owners who opt into the new points system will have a proportionate number of weeks to reserve of each week in their season according to the percentage of ownership weeks in the new system (converted owners + unsold inventory) and, of course, will be sharing that inventory with new points owners. BUT- legacy week owners who opt to use their week in any given year will be able to reserve at the 12 month mark, while legacy point owners (legacy week owners converting to points in a given year) will only be able to reserve closer in, perhaps at the 10 or 11 month mark

Now, where do new point owners fall in this pool? If they have no home resort- since it has been said a point is a point- they don't have a home resort priority to book anywhere. Does that mean they also have to wait to the 10 or 11 month mark to book anywhere? Or do they compete with the legacy week owners in the new program but using their week (but that would mean they didn't get home resort priority)? It seems like there would have to be a third pool of inventory unless no point owner could booth until week owners had first crack at the reservations (and, in reality, first crack could even mean one day in advance, not a month or two).

Lastly- and I think this will be a big negative personally- is it your understanding from all this that a legacy week owner will have to use his/her entire week as a single unit to retain home resort priority for booking and that the unit cannot be split (or that if it is split both halves are used as weeks reservations at one's home resort)? That would mean that a legacy week owner who converts to take advantage of internal exchanges could not use their 1BR part at their home resort and book with home resort priority while trying to book their studio (or combining points with perhaps another partial or full unit) elsewhere using the point based internal exchange system. So either they would have to give up home resort advantage when booking their partial unit or exchange externally via II. That would preclude owners from a very big benefit- the potential to combine left-over points from partial units. It seems as though even in the new system it would be weeks or points, except just on a yearly basis.


----------



## RandR

PerryM said:


> NO!
> 
> A deed spells out the ownership and usage rights to the holder of that deed.
> 
> Marriott has 1 inventory right now and its pre-loaded with deeds and the range of calendar dates any one deed is open for.  Once a reservation is made for the week the deed is removed from inventory.
> 
> There isn't any difference between what Marriott does now and what it needs to do for Resale/Legacy Points owners - none.
> 
> Now sales wise there is a hell of a difference - as of today Marriott can't hawk week 52 at Maui since it has no deeds to back it up.
> 
> Starting 6/21/10 Marriott will ONLY sell week 52 at Maui or whatever week you tell them is your family's favorite week to vacation.  It's up to the new Points owner to figure out that they want what everyone wants and they need to buy more Points to beat out the competition for next year.
> 
> Marriott simply expanded a 1 byte identifier to each deed record - that byte identifies who is the owner of the deed e.g. 1) Legacy owner, 2) Legacy owner who relinquished deed this year 3) Resale owner, 4) Points owner.  They have had this field all the time just added 2 new IDs which doesn't yet exist - the 100% Points owner starting 6/21/10 and Legacy owners relinquishing their deed to the new system.
> 
> Now if you want to say that's 4 inventories I guess I can understand that.  Heck there could be many more but there is but one inventory of deeds to load the 2 reservation systems now.
> 
> This same one inventory determines who can cash in deeds for MRPs too.
> 
> I'm now guessing we are talking about the same exact thing - just an ID for each deed to keep track of who has the ability to reserve that deed.
> 
> This is my misunderstanding - we are talking about the same exact thing.
> 
> I have one of those men-in-black memory erasing gizmos (comes standard on the new iPhone 4)  so I'm just going to erase the last 5-minutes of memory.
> 
> Poof...



Scary, but I think I understand what you are saying.  Basically EVERYONE will start at the same time to book a week but there will be a "marker" on each account to show how they bought; legacy, points etc.  Once each type of ownership group reaches their allotted limit, anyone else with that marker will no longer be able to reserve.  Since the legacy weeks group will still be able to book the amount of reservations that corresponds to how many legacy owners are left, no contract violations have occurred.  Unfortunately for the legacy owners, and technically eveyone else, is that a very large quantity of people will be going for the "hot" weeks. Even though there may only be 50% of the weeks assigned to points, EVERY person with enough points can try for the "hot" week.  This will make it much tougher for anyone to get them.  The legacy owner will still be able to get a week in their season, just not the one they wanted.  This would not be a good thing.


----------



## PerryM

RandR said:


> Scary, but I think I understand what you are saying.  Basically EVERYONE will start at the same time to book a week but there will be a "marker" on each account to show how they bought; legacy, points etc.  Once each type of ownership group reaches their allotted limit, anyone else with that marker will no longer be able to reserve.  Since the legacy weeks group will still be able to book the amount of reservations that corresponds to how many legacy owners are left, no contract violations have occurred.  Unfortunately for the legacy owners, and technically eveyone else, is that a very large quantity of people will be going for the "hot" weeks. Even though there may only be 50% of the weeks assigned to points, EVERY person with enough points can try for the "hot" week.  This will make it much tougher for anyone to get them.  The legacy owner will still be able to get a week in their season, just not the one they wanted.  This would not be a good thing.



Each owner/member is flagged as to who they are AND each deed is too.

E.g.
Week 7 at Summit Watch is a Platinum week - just like week 6 and week 8.  Week 7 is Presidents week and a VERY hot ski week - almost as hot as week 52.

There are 14 Platinum weeks at SW for the year *  200 villas or 2,800 deeded Platinum weeks and they DO NOT include weeks 51 & 52.  Marriott only needs to control 200 Platinum SW deeds to totally lock out week 7 to any non-members!

Folks want to reserve week 7 and that's what the sales reps will be hawking - "You're entitled to week 7 if you have enough Points to reserve it"  (This is a very convoluted, but correct, statement).

13 months to the second 50% of the reservations are now up for grabs to ALL that are flagged to get it.  That's 100 2BR units.

Sadly at the second the total will NOT be 100 but less because folks added weeks in front of it to sneak ahead in line.  That's deeded owners, Legacy Point owners and Marriott sold Point owners.

Since week 7 is just Platinum the new system just requires 100 SW owners to have turned in a Platinum week to be eligible to snag it.

Now here's the sneaky part - deeded owners are limited to using their deeds to put back-to-back in order to jump in front of other folks.

Legacy and Marriott sold Point owners can use far fewer Points and find something somewhere in the system to throw in front of the expensive SW Platinum week.

Let's say there are Silver weeks in Branson that Marriott never sold and is now in the Trust so cheap weeks 5 and 6 are reserved in Branson and week 7 can now be reserved in SW.  Marriott has to have all 3 in its inventory of weeks that can be reserved to make this work.

At 12 months out thousands of members will try to get week 7 - thousands.  Sure some SW Platinum owners will snag a few week 7's but many more Point members will now get access to President's week that never bought SW.

Basically there are MANY reasons for folks to learn the new system and exploit it to their advantage.

Getting 200 Platinum SW owners to join the new system is childs' play and kiss ALL week 7 goodbye at SW to non members.

If I were Marriott I would offer a dumbed down version of the above to their members - just allow pre-reservations 14 months in advance and let the Marriott computers find a way to snag the week they really want - and the program will look at the number of Points in the account and figure out ways to do this.


----------



## Swice

*I vow*

I vow not to look at this thread again until the program is announced.


----------



## SueDonJ

Swice said:


> I vow not to look at this thread again until the program is announced.



I dare you.  :hysterical:


----------



## RandR

Perry, I have a great way for you to make some money to pay all the new fees in the soon to be announced new system.  Charge people to attend webinars on how to beat the system.


----------



## Swice

*Ha*

Man-- I couldn't do it!


----------



## rsackett

PerryM said:


> Marriott can't allow a reservation to take place unless a deed is there to back it up.  They can't just allow a reservation at week 52 unless a deed has been either put into the trust or put up by a Legacy owner.
> 
> No need for multiple inventories.
> 
> P.S.
> 
> It's going to be fun to watch how Marriott allows Legacy owners to deposit their usage into the system 12 months out with 13 month reservations.
> 
> P.P.S.
> 
> There is a case for multiple inventories and that's for NEW Marriott Resorts - Marriott can make up any rules it wants for those guys; like 14 month reservations.  Of course Legacy Points won't be able to snag anything in new Marriotts - have to buy Points from Marriott to get there.



Perry,

I think we are saying the same thing, just in different ways.  When in the past I have spoke of separate inventories I did not mean separated physically.  Marriott must keep track of the deeds and not allow points users to reserve more room at any given resort in any given season than have been put in the points system.  This results in a week being available in each owners season at their resort to reserve if they have not converted to points.  In other words Points reservations in any given resort in any given season can not exceed the number of weeks converted to points at that resort and season.  This in effect keeps the pools for reservations separate.

Lets say the GO Platinum is completely sold out and only one owner converts his week to points.  This would result in only one week being available for points members to reserve.

The FAIREST way would be to proportion each week in the season between weeks owners and point owners, BUT, Marriott is not requires to do this.  Marriott could let points owners start reserving the points weeks at 18 months and leave weeks owners to reserve at 12 months as long as there are adequate weeks let for weeks owners to each reserve in their given season.  I CHOOSE to believe that Marriott will not do this!

Ray


----------



## jlf58

*100% of the MVCI Points Program Details (Just joking!)*

So, does anyone have them yet  ?

It's my day off and I was bored, sorry LOL


----------



## Swice

Morning Fletch,
You are lucky to be off...

I almost called in sick today so I could sit at home and have my wife cook and bring me food while I kept hitting "refresh."      :whoopie:


----------



## aka Julie

You dirty rat -- I thought you had started a thread that had all the details.
:hysterical:


----------



## rsackett

Something just got through my thick head!   

Marriott may never need to exercise ROFR again!  Marriott will never need to buy weeks at sold out resorts as long as at least one will is already in the points program!  Marriott just sells points that have equal opportunity to reserve time at any resort, based on availability.  

So Marriott could keep adding points from new or unsold weeks at ANY resort and tell Joe Blow " Sure you can use your points to reserve week 52 in Maui!"  They can do this as long as they have at least one week in the points pool than is eligible to reserve week 52 on Maui.  

I feel in the end it may very well prove advantageous to own a deeded week,  at a resort and season you enjoy, at least for quite a few years to come!  Now if you bought a Bronze week to snag a prime week at another resort, you may be out of luck.

Ray


----------



## jlf58

I have bits and pieces but thats it. I didn't try to hard because my old bosses would have a fit if I posted details before the roll out. 
I want to get 1000 views today and my goal is accomlished 
BTW, If I bought a computer for $1499. I wonder what else I could have used that money for instead  ?
any ideas ?





aka Julie said:


> You dirty rat -- I thought you had started a thread that had all the details.
> :hysterical:


----------



## rickandcindy23

My guess is you will get 5,000 views.  That is if they let you keep this thread open.  It's pretty closely related to the other one, so they like to keep the posts together.


----------



## dougp26364

JimIg23 said:


> I agree with that and I dont think they would do anything to go against that theory.
> 
> The biggest issue will be what is available in specific timeframes within the season.  What is to stop Marriott from allowing 14 month booking for point holders then point holder from reserving 95% of the summer NCV weeks? Once point holders hit their % cap, they cannot book anymore platimun weeks.  It will leave the deeded owners with the less valuable or desired times within Platinum season.  Technically, Marriott will be able to say platinum deed holder do have weeks to reserve, but in reality it is the less desirable weeks.  That is my main concern.



There's nothing stopping them except their integrity. Hopefully Marriott will want to keep their owners happy and refering friends and family. I don't see Marriott making this sort of move. It would be pretty bad PR and would generate a LOT of angry owners letting Marriott now how they feel. Current owners are their best source of prospects. You don't really want to bite the hand that feeds you.


----------



## dougp26364

PerryM said:


> Imagine it's 8 AM CST in November and it's 13 months before week 52 opens at Park City.  Marriott's salesreps have been selling thousands of owners the dream of New Year's Eve on the slopes at Park City.
> 
> Ding - it's 8 AM and 5,000 folks click the mouse to make a reservation....
> 
> Well this ain't TV and there are only 200 villas at MountainSide and 200 at Summit Watch (approximate) and only 400 owners can get those reservations - at the very max.  Throw out 50% of the inventory at 13 months and only 200 reservations can be issued at the max.
> 
> Of course Marriott has to have a deed behind any available reservation and that's part of the job of the Points/Weeks Calendar - it has to be loaded with deeds in order for reservations to be issued.  They can't fudge this.  Just like right now - "No reservations left".
> 
> So only 1 pool of reservations needs to be kept.
> 
> When Marriott builds new Point oriented Resorts there has to be 2 pools of inventory - one for Resale Points/Legacy Points and one for Point Resorts which probably will keep out those kinds of folks...
> 
> A deed is a deed....indeed.



You're having a lot of issues getting past this deed thing. You're incorrect when you assume that Marriott has to have a deed behind every points package. All that's required is that they can't sell more points than can be used to make reservations for a particular resort. If they have 200 two bedroom units and it requires 1,000 points to reserve each unit, then Marriott can only sell 200,000 points, not deeds, for that resort. 

There is precedent on my side with other points programs with mixed weeks/points programs that will back up my assertion that seperate inventories will need to be maintained.


----------



## PerryM

rsackett said:


> Perry,
> 
> I think we are saying the same thing, just in different ways.  When in the past I have spoke of separate inventories I did not mean separated physically.  Marriott must keep track of the deeds and not allow points users to reserve more room at any given resort in any given season than have been put in the points system.  This results in a week being available in each owners season at their resort to reserve if they have not converted to points.  In other words Points reservations in any given resort in any given season can not exceed the number of weeks converted to points at that resort and season.  This in effect keeps the pools for reservations separate.
> 
> Lets say the GO Platinum is completely sold out and only one owner converts his week to points.  This would result in only one week being available for points members to reserve.
> 
> The FAIREST way would be to proportion each week in the season between weeks owners and point owners, BUT, Marriott is not requires to do this.  Marriott could let points owners start reserving the points weeks at 18 months and leave weeks owners to reserve at 12 months as long as there are adequate weeks let for weeks owners to each reserve in their given season.  I CHOOSE to believe that Marriott will not do this!
> 
> Ray





rsackett said:


> Something just got through my thick head!
> 
> Marriott may never need to exercise ROFR again!  Marriott will never need to buy weeks at sold out resorts as long as at least one will is already in the points program!  Marriott just sells points that have equal opportunity to reserve time at any resort, based on availability.
> 
> So Marriott could keep adding points from new or unsold weeks at ANY resort and tell Joe Blow " Sure you can use your points to reserve week 52 in Maui!"  They can do this as long as they have at least one week in the points pool than is eligible to reserve week 52 on Maui.
> 
> I feel in the end it may very well prove advantageous to own a deeded week,  at a resort and season you enjoy, at least for quite a few years to come!  Now if you bought a Bronze week to snag a prime week at another resort, you may be out of luck.
> 
> Ray



I take responsibility for some of this confusion - I think we are all saying the same thing.


----------



## SueDonJ

Admit it, Fletch.  You just wanted to be Firsty-First.


----------



## jlf58

My competive sales nature does make me love being 1st at things 



SueDonJ said:


> Admit it, Fletch.  You just wanted to be Firsty-First.


----------



## dougp26364

rsackett said:


> Something just got through my thick head!
> 
> Marriott may never need to exercise ROFR again!  Marriott will never need to buy weeks at sold out resorts as long as at least one will is already in the points program!  Marriott just sells points that have equal opportunity to reserve time at any resort, based on availability.
> 
> So Marriott could keep adding points from new or unsold weeks at ANY resort and tell Joe Blow " Sure you can use your points to reserve week 52 in Maui!"  They can do this as long as they have at least one week in the points pool than is eligible to reserve week 52 on Maui.
> 
> I feel in the end it may very well prove advantageous to own a deeded week,  at a resort and season you enjoy, at least for quite a few years to come!  Now if you bought a Bronze week to snag a prime week at another resort, you may be out of luck.
> 
> Ray



Keeping in mind that Marriott can not sell more points than it has nights available for reservations and you see the attractiveness of selling points rather than deeds. You don't have to sell a deeded week. You can sell point packages in increments such as 100, 200 or 500 or any increment Marriott chooses. The points, if it's a trust based ownership, don't even have to be attached to a specific resort (no home resort advantage). Marriott just has to have inventory somewhere to back up those points. As Perry points out, Marriott will be able to move those undesirable weeks such as Silver weeks at Branson without breaking a sweat. 

There are good things and not so good things about points. It's not all bad but it's not all good either. That's why hashing out stuff in long threads like this can be a good thing.


----------



## IngridN

I've finally succumbed (sp?). I hope Marriott also provides a FAQs with the announcement letter. My list of questions is getting longer and longer and I suspect it's pretty much the same list as others have. 

I'm in the process of purchasing a resale week for use only, not a trader, that's set to close 7/5 so I want the home priority questions answered ASAP. I'd rather lose the deposit than find I will have difficulty making reservations.

Ingrid


----------



## Pro

Fletch said:


> BTW, If I bought a computer for $1499. I wonder what else I could have used that money for instead  ?
> any ideas ?


Sounds like a coded message to me.

Joe


----------



## SueDonJ

IngridN said:


> I've finally succumbed (sp?). I hope Marriott also provides a FAQs with the announcement letter. My list of questions is getting longer and longer and I suspect it's pretty much the same list as others have.
> 
> I'm in the process of purchasing a resale week for use only, not a trader, that's set to close 7/5 so I want the home priority questions answered ASAP. I'd rather lose the deposit than find I will have difficulty making reservations.
> 
> Ingrid



It's like The Borg, isn't it?  "You will be assimilated."

How about if we start a list of questions and then we have something to start with when whatever gets told to us, gets told to us?   

1.  What is the "initiation fee"?  At roll-out will it be the same for developer-direct and external resale purchases?  Upon resale of existing weeks whose owners have converted to the points system, will each successive owner be required to pay an "initiation fee" or will the conversion transfer with the sale?


----------



## cp73

I am so over this...


----------



## SueDonJ

Nah, just sounds like Fletch can't bear to buy now that he's not eligible for the employee discount.


----------



## Y-ASK

Wait a minute!  If I purchase points from Marriott and they combine all of the different resorts maintenance fees together and split them up amongst the new owners, does that mean I have to pay for that stupid roof down in Aruba? 

Y-ASK


----------



## SueDonJ

Y-ASK said:


> ... that stupid roof down in Aruba ...



BWAHAHAHahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!  Oh that's funny, really did make me laugh right out loud.  Hahahahahahaha.

(Sorry all, I'm overtired from the stress and late night of Celtics/Lakers.  It's impossible to concentrate or not be silly.)


----------



## jlf58

It gets worse. I think it means you are related to Marksue 




Y-ASK said:


> Wait a minute!  If I purchase points from Marriott and they combine all of the different resorts maintenance fees together and split them up amongst the new owners, does that mean I have to pay for that stupid roof down in Aruba?
> 
> Y-ASK


----------



## DanCali

rsackett said:


> The FAIREST way would be to proportion each week in the season between weeks owners and point owners, BUT, Marriott is not requires to do this.  Marriott could let points owners start reserving the points weeks at 18 months and leave weeks owners to reserve at 12 months as long as there are adequate weeks let for weeks owners to each reserve in their given season.  I CHOOSE to believe that Marriott will not do this!
> 
> Ray






dougp26364 said:


> There's nothing stopping them except their integrity. Hopefully Marriott will want to keep their owners happy and refering friends and family. I don't see Marriott making this sort of move. It would be pretty bad PR and would generate a LOT of angry owners letting Marriott now how they feel. Current owners are their best source of prospects. You don't really want to bite the hand that feeds you.




I understand the "entitled to reserve a week in your season argument", but if class W of owners doesn't have equal access to all the weeks in the season they bought because class P is treated preferentially then the "season" was misrepresented. I just don't see how one can buy a summer-fall season (which implied you have access to inventory of summer-fall weeks), and then consistently not have access to the summer weeks. Isn't that like selling a fall season under the disguise of a summer-fall season just to charge a higher price? I smell 51 class-actions if Marriott goes that route...


----------



## MountainGal

I'm an owner of MPD and am in the process of purchasing another resale MPD Platinum.  I'm typically a glass is half full kind of gal.  :whoopie: I'm hopeful that my view of the world continue in that vain.  However, I am anxious to see the new program to see what my choices will be for future use.


----------



## timeos2

*And in the end, the points you get are equal to the points you buy -The Beatles*

All the over the top proclamations of pending doom, cataclysmic price and ownership rights collapse  and then poof - everything is hunky dory and the shine is back on Marriott when in fact nothing has yet been officially offered to anyone.  Not likely but it still COULD be the thing will never even exist (I don't actually think that).  

What a train wreck THIS thread turned out to be.  All along this was a relatively common, points based system rumored to be offered as an option to make Marriott some more money and maybe make owners/buyers happier than they were with the old choices. It ended up so overblown that (hopefully) nothing like it can happen again. Who would ever want to waste the time and effort like this again for an ultimately meaningless exercise in generating far too many web pages of babble, rants and hyperbole.  Help!  I apologize for my helping it on as it simply became way out of hand.  

Take all of the advice, comments and proclamations as worth exactly what you paid for them.  They aren't worth even that IMO. Hopefully the facts will be on the table within a few days and finally only those will be in play.


----------



## RandR

SueDonJ said:


> It's like The Borg, isn't it?  "You will be assimilated."
> 
> How about if we start a list of questions and then we have something to start with when whatever gets told to us, gets told to us?
> 
> 1.  What is the "initiation fee"?  At roll-out will it be the same for developer-direct and external resale purchases?  Upon resale of existing weeks whose owners have converted to the points system, will each successive owner be required to pay an "initiation fee" or will the conversion transfer with the sale?



Susan, that's cheating.  You put 3 questions in one.


----------



## winger

I will be requesting a meet/greet shortly (within a couple of week) at a Marriott sales office.  Let's see if I learn more here (TUG) or there  

I know the sales mgr there is currently in Orlando getting 'training' about the upcoming MVCI changes so he was unable to take my call at his office.


----------



## winger

aka Julie said:


> You dirty rat -- I thought you had started a thread that had all the details.
> :hysterical:



SAME here. Since it is your day off, Fletch. Start making some phone calls, will you?


----------



## GregT

All,

Nice work -- I've not seen Aruba lately so I believe we just passed them.  That's an accomplishment (I think???).

If there is only one inventory (and I'm still not convinced that would be the case), then I would think the system could be manipulated to get better weeks for the points owners.  

The only systems I've worked with (Worldmark and Wyndham) you select the property you want and the system shows you what's available by room size in the month you indicate.  You can watch the availability decrease (it shows 5+ with a specific check-in date, 2-4 available for a different check-in date, 1 available, or no available).   Meaning the inventory is pre-determined.

So, I still think Marriott has to have some way to figure out what's available to an existing deed owner, and what's available to the points owner.

Could they use the existing week date on the deed to show which of the two programs it can be booked under (even though we all though the week date was meaningless for the floating weeks).  It's a way to allocate which "pool" has which deeds.  Someone's Week 36/Unit 4001 sits in the legacy deed pool until they opt for legacy points for one year, at which time the Week 36/Unit 4001 deed is transferred into the points pool (for the year).

Thoughts?  It would be a clean way to avoid manipulation, and makes those dates/weeks actually somewhat relevant.


----------



## RandR

DanCali said:


> I understand the "entitled to reserve a week in your season argument", but if class W of owners doesn't have equal access to all the weeks in the season they bought because class P is treated preferentially then the "season" was misrepresented. I just don't see how one can buy a summer-fall season (which implied you have access to inventory of summer-fall weeks), and then consistently not have access to the summer weeks. Isn't that like selling a fall season under the disguise of a summer-fall season just to charge a higher price? I smell 51 class-actions if Marriott goes that route...



But they can let everyone have access to the weeks at the same time and therefore the competition for the best weeks might be crazy.  The weeks owners (and others) could get shut out of the weeks they want.  Right now the weeks owners only compete with like weeks owners in their home resort.  Now they might be going up against anyone with enough points.


----------



## DanCali

RandR said:


> But they can let everyone have access to the weeks at the same time and therefore the competition for the best weeks might be crazy.  The weeks owners (and others) could get shut out of the weeks they want.



There are two separate things being discussed... One is giving everyone access to the weeks at the same time. The other is putting the "good" weeks of a particular season in the P inventory and the rest in the W inventory. My comment was referring to the latter.

CA law distinguishes between a "single site time-share plan," which is the right to use accommodations at a single time-share property and a "multisite time-share plan," which can take several forms. This will be a completely new timeshare plan so I don't see how you can co-mingle inventories (so I think giving everyone access to the same inventory is off the table). So if inventory is separated, I think/hope it is separated in such a way that each checkin day get allocated to a particular system based on the percentage of the owners in that season who converted. Something less may satisfy the "right to reserve a week in the season" argument, but still opens Marriott up to possible litigation (e.g. "the season was misrepresented")


----------



## Antny

*Aruba thread*



GregT said:


> All,
> 
> Nice work -- I've not seen Aruba lately so I believe we just passed them.  That's an accomplishment (I think???).



This reply will officially pass the Aruba thread..    Sorry, I just had to do it.


----------



## SueDonJ

winger said:


> I will be requesting a meet/greet shortly (within a couple of week) at a Marriott sales office.  Let's see if I learn more here (TUG) or there
> 
> I know the sales mgr there is currently in Orlando getting 'training' about the upcoming MVCI changes so he was unable to take my call at his office.



You know what I really hope?  That upon roll-out there is a dedicated telephone line/website for owners to ask whatever questions they have about how this will impact their particular ownerships.  I'm sure that if they do it there will be all sorts of nudges to contact your sales rep if you want to add to your existing portfolio, and I wouldn't begrudge them taking the opportunity to push owners in the direction of further sales, but the sales reps don't exactly have a pristine reputation for uniformly representing the product exactly as it's supposed to be able to be used.  (Ugh, terrible sentence structure, sorry.)  I hope that they are expecting and preparing a select group of highly-skilled/knowledgeable reps to answer the very detailed questions that this roll-our will produce.

(I've gotta plug my rep again here because she is just so darned good and honest in her job - if SHE is one of those select Chosen Ones then I will be thrilled to death.)


----------



## SueDonJ

Antny said:


> This reply will officially pass the Aruba thread..    Sorry, I just had to do it.



I have to shed a tear, that thread is probably responsible for 2/3 of my no-life zillion posts.


----------



## SueDonJ

RandR said:


> Susan, that's cheating.  You put 3 questions in one.



HEY!  I made the rules, I can break 'em.  :hysterical:   Besides, none of these folks listened to me anyway. Do you SEE any questions submitted in list form?  Nope, neither do I.


----------



## kfsong

everyone is waiting here , fletch


----------



## Y-ASK

SueDonJ said:


> HEY!  I made the rules, I can break 'em.  :hysterical:   Besides, none of these folks listened to me anyway. Do you SEE any questions submitted in list form?  Nope, neither do I.


Should I have added a #2 to mine? 

Just read the Aruba thread for the 1st time and now my head hurts... 

Y-ASK


----------



## EducatedConsumer

Fletch said:


> I have bits and pieces but thats it. I didn't try to hard because my old bosses would have a fit if I posted details before the roll out.
> I want to get 1000 views today and my goal is accomlished
> BTW, If I bought a computer for $1499. I wonder what else I could have used that money for instead  ?
> any ideas ?



$1499.00 flat rate to upgrade from a legacy week to a points week, huh?Interesting. I'd have to evaluate the benefits of what a points week will get us when the details are released next week.


----------



## indyhorizons

Fletch said:


> I have bits and pieces but thats it. I didn't try to hard because my old bosses would have a fit if I posted details before the roll out.
> I want to get 1000 views today and my goal is accomlished
> BTW, If I bought a computer for $1499. I wonder what else I could have used that money for instead  ?
> any ideas ?




*I* could not buy anything because I'm too cheap to spend $1499 on either. :rofl:


----------



## davidvel

It seems we are over-complicating the issue of a need for separate inventory or not. I don't see it being any different than it is now. II allows split weeks, etc. In a sense they have a "separate inventory" pool of weeks, which they then supply in accordance with their rules. 

The new points system will simply be an amalgam of "owner's" weeks that have "deposited" their week into the points system. The "owner" will either be legacy owners in the points program or the Marriott points trust. Once the "week" gets into the points program, Marriott supplies them in accordance with the points program rules, no different than II (or Redweek, or rci...).

What people have asked multiple times (and a rational fear) is whether Marriott can allow either legacy owners in the points program, or the Marriott trust, to reserve with any advantage over those not in the points program. The answer to this from a legal prospective is NO. 

Whatever form of overlay they employ, they cannot alter your current right to reserve your week, in your season, on the same basis of ANY OTHER DEED HOLDER in your season (this includes the Marriott trust or legacy owner in the points program.)  They cannot use their internal computers to reserve to your disadvantage, etc..

The interesting part will be if Marriott contends that the Points Trust owns multiple weeks and is a separate entity from MVCI/"the declarant", thereby giving all those weeks the 13 month advantage. If so, lawsuits will definitely follow.

The only way that I can see them legally employing the system if they reserve in  an automated system is to allow non-points users some prior of time to reserve their week (ie. 5 business days), then reserve any weeks for the deeds they hold. 

But, this would not leave a lot of great weeks for their program. This would lead to their argument that they can automatically reserve a proportionate amount of available weeks based upon the deeds in the points program. While it seems fair and equitable, my opinion is that it would be a violation of the covenants. Quite a catch-22.


----------



## winger

indyhorizons said:


> *I* could not buy anything because I'm too cheap to spend $1499 on either. :rofl:



I wonder if it is actually going to be $1499.95, to be exact.

Wow, that is alot of $$$ to be giving away to Marriott, esp in these economic times.  For some people, that is a monthly mortgage payment or a kids' monthly tuition (LOL, it is scary how expensive private high schools cost now), etc... and if one were to be layed off from work tomorrow, how bad it would feel to have spent that $1499.95 on an 'enhancement'.


----------



## pedro47

Even an old man got the coded message.


----------



## tlwmkw

I'm not completely up to date on this thread (it's too long for me to read it all when not much is really known) but I do have something to add.

We're off to HHI next week and got a call from the "Platinum Account Representative" (new name for the concierge?) last night- he said "It's an exciting time here because we are currently training for our new Marriott system, and we want to have you come and get a presentation about it while you are here".  He claimed that all the sales offices are closed on Thurs/Fri/Sat for training.  He had been in training all day yesterday and will be again today and tomorrow, then the big roll out on Sunday (funny day to start it if you ask me).  I then began to quiz him for details and he clammed up which I thought was odd.  He said "I can't say anything until I have all the details to present to you".  The gist of what he said is that they want to present this info in person and not via e-mail or phone call.  Regardless he confirmed that something is coming but why all the cloak and dagger?  Sounded a little weird to me.  This may all have been covered earlier in the thread but I'm not reading through all the posts to see if it was or not.

tlwmkw


----------



## winger

pedro47 said:


> Even an old man got the coded message.



Come on, none of us here on TUG are OLD; we are all young at heart and play (and travel)


----------



## tlwmkw

Fletch,

Here's another post to get you closer to that 1000 mark.  $1499 sounds like a lot just to convert- it'll be interesting to see what the response is.  At that price I don't see many folks going for it unless there are some really great benefits.

Pump your ex-coworkers and get us all the juicy info you can.  Enquiring minds want to know.

tlwmkw


----------



## NJMOM2

Everyone is worried where Marriott is going to get the week from when a legacy owner converts to points in a given year.  I can't help but wonder where does Marriott currently get the week from for their use when an owner opts to use get Marriott Rewards Points in a given year?  Wouldn't it be the same issue?


----------



## taffy19

How about this? Marriott has several point packages of different amount of points. The package with the most points will give you the chance to make reservations earlier but you can always buy more points to arrive there later too.

However, a legacy owner will always keep the right of booking seven days together but they will never be the most desirable weeks again like we had in the old system unless he buys more points. This already happened in the old system as I found this out first hand so had to try the next week again until a week was available. How will they solve this problem if too many week-ends are reserved? Will they copy the plan that Hyatt has in place?


----------



## Swice

tlwmkw said:


> He claimed that all the sales offices are closed on Thurs/Fri/Sat for training.  He had been in training all day yesterday and will be again today and tomorrow, then the big roll out on Sunday (funny day to start it if you ask me).
> tlwmkw



From a business perspective, I do wonder why they would still be training on a Saturday?   Is Saturday not a big tour/presentation day?


----------



## timtax

*Platinum Plus*

It sounds like a Platinum Plus owner who uses their timeshare each year should just hang on to their deed and avoid the new system. The MF will be cheaper at MOW than the average for the points pool and no one can get in front of them in line for a reservation.


----------



## tombo

Just curious if a statement made the other day was correct. It was stated that Marriott currently owns 60% of the total inventory at all Marriott resorts. If that is true and as stated Marriott puts 100% of it's inventory in the points pool which will not (might not) be available to Legacy owners, then there will only be 40% of the entire Marriott inventory available for legacy owners day one before they convert the first Legacy owner to points. So instead of having access to 100% of the inventory in my season like I do now, starting June 21'st will I only have access to 40% of the combined inventory of Marriott resorts worldwide? If this is true it won't take a long time to see reduced access to exchange inventory as more and more owners convert, access will become severelly reduced Monday.


----------



## PerryM

*Who would have thought - Marriott a WM want-to-be*



timtax said:


> It sounds like a Platinum Plus owner who uses their timeshare each year should just hang on to their deed and avoid the new system. The MF will be cheaper at MOW than the average for the points pool and no one can get in front of them in line for a reservation.



In the various gyrations of the rumors we have journeyed from:
*
100% Week system
Sitting on top system
Trust based system
Sitting on top system married to a Trust system
*
Right now the rumors point towards any Marriott owner with 2 or more weeks, of any kind, to just join and pay the $695 before it skyrockets to something much higher.

What's the harm beside paying $695 pro-rated over 2+ weeks?

None that I can think of, except a yearly $169 membership fee.

Then when we know more about the system decisions can be made as to what to do.

Unless something is revealed beyond what we can cook up I don't see me paying $595 for our Gold Summit Watch to enter Points.  I see me using II and who knows what I will snag.

The conversion can probably be done on a website with folks notarizing a 4-page document; just like I've done with WM 3 times.

Marriott will be chugging down the Points route and could even morph into a destination club where they don't spend $500M to buy and develop a huge 500 villa resort but just start buying $2M - $4M condos and sell Points to pay back the money in one weekend.  A Trust based Point system is very powerful and flexible.

But as it stands I am glad to see Marriott take the high road and step over some of the dirty tricks other developers have pulled on their owners.

P.S.
Its funny to think of all the comments against WM over the years when Marriott is about to become a WM want-to-be.  They are Trust based and 100% Points and can reserve as few as 2 days (even 1 day under special circumstances) up to 60 days in one click of the mouse.


----------



## timtax

*Higher Annual MF*

What's the harm beside paying $695 pro-rated over 2+ weeks?


I would think the MF of the trust would be higher for a Platinum Plus owner.
Why pay the fee to simply pay more in MF?


----------



## PerryM

timtax said:


> What's the harm beside paying $695 pro-rated over 2+ weeks?
> 
> 
> I would think the MF of the trust would be higher for a Platinum Plus owner.
> Why pay the fee to simply pay more in MF?



MF exactly the same for Legacy owners - no change.

Yes there is a yearly fee of $169, forgot about that.


----------



## Latravel

Hmmm.  It could have been a much higher price from what I hear other programs have charged to "upgrade".


----------



## GaryDouglas

Swice said:


> From a business perspective, I do wonder why they would still be training on a Saturday? Is Saturday not a big tour/presentation day?


 
Since most resorts have a Friday-Saturday-Sunday checkin, most tours are between Monday and Thursday.


----------



## davidvel

NJMOM2 said:


> Everyone is worried where Marriott is going to get the week from when a legacy owner onverts to points in a given year.  I can't help but wonder where does Marriott currently get the week from for their use when an owner opts to use get Marriott Rewards Points in a given year?  Wouldn't it be the same issue?



Bingo


----------



## davidvel

tombo said:


> Just curious if a statement made the other day was correct. It was stated that Marriott currently owns 60% of the total inventory at all Marriott resorts. If that is true and as stated Marriott puts 100% of it's inventory in the points pool which will not (might not) be available to Legacy owners, then there will only be 40% of the entire Marriott inventory available for legacy owners day one before they convert the first Legacy owner to points. So instead of having access to 100% of the inventory in my season like I do now, starting June 21'st will I only have access to 40% of the combined inventory of Marriott resorts worldwide? If this is true it won't take a long time to see reduced access to exchange inventory as more and more owners convert, access will become severelly reduced Monday.



Its not about YOU having access to 100% of inventory. Using your hypothetical: 100% of owners (including marriott) had access to 100% of the total weeks. In your scenario, 40% of the owners will have access to the remaining 40% of the weeks. The $1M question is which 40% of weeks go into the points pool, and how...


----------



## Tommy_Boy

*Sorry to say it, but...*

I TOLD YOU SO!!!! (maybe not you, in particular, but check back to posts I made several months ago, and you will see)...





timeos2 said:


> All the over the top proclamations of pending doom, cataclysmic price and ownership rights collapse  and then poof - everything is hunky dory and the shine is back on Marriott when in fact nothing has yet been officially offered to anyone.  Not likely but it still COULD be the thing will never even exist (I don't actually think that).
> 
> What a train wreck THIS thread turned out to be.  All along this was a relatively common, points based system rumored to be offered as an option to make Marriott some more money and maybe make owners/buyers happier than they were with the old choices. It ended up so overblown that (hopefully) nothing like it can happen again. Who would ever want to waste the time and effort like this again for an ultimately meaningless exercise in generating far too many web pages of babble, rants and hyperbole.  Help!  I apologize for my helping it on as it simply became way out of hand.
> 
> Take all of the advice, comments and proclamations as worth exactly what you paid for them.  They aren't worth even that IMO. Hopefully the facts will be on the table within a few days and finally only those will be in play.


----------



## Swice

*Sunday*

I bet tuggers who normally stay away from the tours will be scrambling tonight and tomorrow as they check in to sign up for the Sunday morning times!!!!   :rofl: 

Who is signed up??


----------



## DanCali

tombo said:


> Just curious if a statement made the other day was correct. It was stated that Marriott currently owns 60% of the total inventory at all Marriott resorts. If that is true and as stated Marriott puts 100% of it's inventory in the points pool which will not (might not) be available to Legacy owners, then there will only be 40% of the entire Marriott inventory available for legacy owners day one before they convert the first Legacy owner to points. So instead of having access to 100% of the inventory in my season like I do now, starting June 21'st will I only have access to 40% of the combined inventory of Marriott resorts worldwide? If this is true it won't take a long time to see reduced access to exchange inventory as more and more owners convert, access will become severelly reduced Monday.



Maybe so - but Marriott probably owns less Platinum weeks and more Gold and Silver weeks.


----------



## ciscogizmo1

Does anyone know how to get in contact with your sale agent?  I used one over 8 years ago and I know she still works for Marriott as she called the other day but I didn't take her call.  Anyways...  does Marriott use a specific e-mail format like first.lastname@mvci.com  I was going to try and e-mail her to get some details about the new program.   I won't be at a Marriott resort for a long time probably not until next year.  I rented all of my weeks this year.  So, I wonder  how we'd find out about the program if we don't visit this year.  My 2 other friends that own Marriott have no clue about the new program.


----------



## hipslo

NJMOM2 said:


> Everyone is worried where Marriott is going to get the week from when a legacy owner onverts to points in a given year.  I can't help but wonder where does Marriott currently get the week from for their use when an owner opts to use get Marriott Rewards Points in a given year?  Wouldn't it be the same issue?



This is a GREAT question, and one I hadnt thought of before.  Anyone know the answer?


----------



## LAX Mom

Fletch said:


> So, does anyone have them yet  ?
> 
> It's my day off and I was bored, sorry LOL



Very amusing! 

I've followed the other thread some, but haven't been pulled into the speculation. I figure I'll wait until the details are released then evaluate the new program. We need a new computer, but even if we didn't I doubt I'd pay $1,499 to convert to the new program.


----------



## taffy19

*And in the end, the points you get are equal to the points you buy -The Beatles*



timeos2 said:


> All the over the top proclamations of pending doom, cataclysmic price and ownership rights collapse and then poof - everything is hunky dory and the shine is back on Marriott when in fact nothing has yet been officially offered to anyone. Not likely but it still COULD be the thing will never even exist (I don't actually think that).
> 
> What a train wreck THIS thread turned out to be. All along this was a relatively common, points based system rumored to be offered as an option to make Marriott some more money and maybe make owners/buyers happier than they were with the old choices. It ended up so overblown that (hopefully) nothing like it can happen again. Who would ever want to waste the time and effort like this again for an ultimately meaningless exercise in generating far too many web pages of babble, rants and hyperbole. Help! I apologize for my helping it on as it simply became way out of hand.
> 
> Take all of the advice, comments and proclamations as worth exactly what you paid for them. They aren't worth even that IMO. Hopefully the facts will be on the table within a few days and finally only those will be in play.


The Beatles' quote may be true but the reason that this thread is so long is that someone started rumors floating around and Marriott didn't put a stop to it until the last few weeks. Most of us are worried how the new system will affect what we currently own as nobody wants to end up with less than we had before in case we do or do not convert.

The new point system may be great but it has to work well with the old system too and that's why we are speculating. I already know that I will get my fixed week/unit back, if I would switch back and forward between the points or Legacy weeks but still wonder what to do.

This long thread will help many to ask the right questions before signing the dotted line and if Marriott reads this by any chance, they can prepare a long list of Q&As so they don't have to answer the same questions over and over again.

I know that most TUGgers love the floating week system and I never did but, in this case, it pays off to own a fixed week and/or unit as it is part of the deed so cannot change. I also hope that Marriott will roll out a system that is friendly towards their current customer base as it will pay off for them in the future. We are their best prospects to buy more points because we like to travel to their new destinations once they start building again.


----------



## NJMOM2

Hey, how many MVCI owners want to go to Grand Ocean for 4th of July week?  I just checked Marriott.com and there is availability for July 3rd check in for 7 night at $550 per night for a courtyard view.   No AAA availablity, no Marriott reward reservations availablity, no Getaways and no exchange availability.  I know my exchange request for HHI never came through for ANY day for Summer 2010!  Makes you wonder.


----------



## hipslo

NJMOM2 said:


> Hey, how many MVCI owners want to go to Grand Ocean for 4th of July week?  I just checked Marriott.com and there is availability for July 3rd check in for 7 night at $550 per night for a courtyard view.   No AAA availablity, no Marriott reward reservations availablity, no Getaways and no exchange availability.  I know my exchange request for HHI never came through for ANY day for Summer 2010!  Makes you wonder.



This could always be from folks who reserved that week and then turned it back to Marriott in the rental program.


----------



## taffy19

LAX Mom said:


> Very amusing!
> 
> I've followed the other thread some, but haven't been pulled into the speculation. I figure I'll wait until the details are released then evaluate the new program. We need a new computer, but even if we didn't I doubt I'd pay $1,499 to convert to the new program.


I thought that the price was $595 or $695 for multiple weeks. That was posted earlier. If the price is $1,499, that is practically double.  

It looks like the rumors I heard in March were right even with the dates of training but I keep thinking about one statement that was made to me about something rolling out in the fall and I wonder now if it will be the very first new resort that Marriott will introduce with points only. Where would that be?


----------



## tombo

I actually thought it would be higher than $1499. Not that I would pay $499 to convert, much less $1499, but I did think it would be higher to make marriott major profit on converting existing owners to points members. Of course if the estimated 20% of owners pony up $1499 to convert, I guess that is major profits, even by Marriott's standards.


----------



## tombo

NJMOM2 said:


> Everyone is worried where Marriott is going to get the week from when a legacy owner converts to points in a given year.  I can't help but wonder where does Marriott currently get the week from for their use when an owner opts to use get Marriott Rewards Points in a given year?  Wouldn't it be the same issue?






hipslo said:


> This is a GREAT question, and one I hadnt thought of before.  Anyone know the answer?



As I said in a previous post, it has been said here that Marriott currently owns 60% of the MVC's total inventory. If they own 60%, then they have plenty of weeks/days/ weekends to allocate to anything they want like Marriott reward points, the new upcoming points that will be used by the new points members, and anything else they see fit to use their 60% of the weeks for I assume.


----------



## BocaBum99

$1499 may or may not be bad.  It depends on what you get.  If it is $1499 per week with no discounts for multiple weeks, then that may be too expensive.  It depends on the rest of the program details.


----------



## hipslo

tombo said:


> As I said in a previous post, it has been said here that Marriott currently owns 60% of the MVC's total inventory. If they own 60%, then they have plenty of weeks/days/ weekends to allocate to anything they want like Marriott reward points, the new upcoming points that will be used by the new points members, and anything else they see fit to use their 60% of the weeks for I assume.



While that may be the case generically, it is not the case on a resort by resort basis.  For example, mountainside has been 100% sold out (other than the occasional week picked up via rofr) for a number of years.  And yet, there is often availability on marriott.com to rent even the most desireable ski weeks directly from marriott (for big bucks).  Where do these weeks come from? 

 The two potential sources are (i) owners who turn their weeks in for points, and (ii) owners who reserve a week and then turn the reserved week in for rent. 

The question is, as to owners who turn in their week for points, who are NOT first required to make a reservation for the week prior to turning it in, how does marriott determine which week has been turned in, that it can then rent on marriott.com?


----------



## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> While that may be the case generically, it is not the case on a resort by resort basis.  For example, mountainside has been 100% sold out (other than the occasional week picked up via rofr) for a number of years.  And yet, there is often availability on marriott.com to rent even the most desireable ski weeks directly from marriott (for big bucks).  Where do these weeks come from?
> 
> The two potential sources are (i) owners who turn their weeks in for points, and (ii) owners who reserve a week and then turn the reserved week in for rent.
> 
> The question is, as to owners who turn in their week for points, who are NOT first required to make a reservation for the week prior to turning it in, how does marriott determine which week has been turned in, that it can then rent on marriott.com?



Considering that Marriott _generally_ has the right to reserve Use Periods on the same basis as Owners (SurfWatch, for example, does not allow Marriott to utilize the 13-mo rule as a multi-week owner can,) wouldn't Marriott be able to choose from the available inventory on the day that an interval is released by an exchange for MRP?


----------



## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> Considering that Marriott _generally_ has the right to reserve Use Periods on the same basis as Owners (SurfWatch, for example, does not allow Marriott to utilize the 13-mo rule as a multi-week owner can,) wouldn't Marriott be able to choose from the available inventory on the day that an interval is released by an exchange for MRP?



I don't know.  But if they are directly competing with owners to make reservations, given that they also happen to control the reservation system, isnt there at least the concern that they would have the first crack at the most desireable weeks, as a practical matter?  

Like I said, I have never thought about this question before, but it seems like some of the "prime" weeks could be sucked out of the system this way. If so, then why wouldnt the new points system potentially exacerbate such a concern?


----------



## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> I don't know.  But if they are directly competing with owners to make reservations, given that they also happen to control the reservation system, isnt there at least the concern that they would have the first crack at the most desireable weeks, as a practical matter?
> 
> Like I said, I have never thought about this question before, but it seems like some of the "prime" weeks could be sucked out of the system this way. If so, then why wouldnt the new points system potentially exacerbate such a concern?



I'll tell you, more and more reading TUG I get the impression that either I place way too much stock in the total lack of legitimate, proven allegations against Marriott of bad business practices, or some of you are only too willing to believe that Marriott WILL engage in bad business practices unless we keep eighty-seventeen pairs of eyes on them at all times.

Of course if Marriott is entitled to reserve at least some inventory on the same basis as every other owner, then it stands to reason that owners can at some point be in competition with Marriott for the same inventory.  But why all of a sudden do we think that they're going to manipulate the inventory or the reservation process to give themselves more than the equal footing they have?  And if you don't have knowledge of them doing it up to this point, why would you expect it from here on out?

I don't get it.  We're all Marriott owners.  We've all been playing right along with them by the rules for a number of years, and none of us has ever been able to post on TUG that there is evidence of Marriott engaging in wrong-doing.  I don't even remember any posts questioning whether wrong-doing of the magnitude speculated in this thread might have been happening!  The level of suspicion here is just mind-boggling.


----------



## m61376

davidvel said:


> It seems we are over-complicating the issue of a need for separate inventory or not. I don't see it being any different than it is now. II allows split weeks, etc. In a sense they have a "separate inventory" pool of weeks, which they then supply in accordance with their rules.
> 
> The new points system will simply be an amalgam of "owner's" weeks that have "deposited" their week into the points system. The "owner" will either be legacy owners in the points program or the Marriott points trust. Once the "week" gets into the points program, Marriott supplies them in accordance with the points program rules, no different than II (or Redweek, or rci...).
> 
> What people have asked multiple times (and a rational fear) is whether Marriott can allow either legacy owners in the points program, or the Marriott trust, to reserve with any advantage over those not in the points program. The answer to this from a legal prospective is NO.
> 
> Whatever form of overlay they employ, they cannot alter your current right to reserve your week, in your season, on the same basis of ANY OTHER DEED HOLDER in your season (this includes the Marriott trust or legacy owner in the points program.)  They cannot use their internal computers to reserve to your disadvantage, etc..
> 
> The interesting part will be if Marriott contends that the Points Trust owns multiple weeks and is a separate entity from MVCI/"the declarant", thereby giving all those weeks the 13 month advantage. If so, lawsuits will definitely follow.
> 
> The only way that I can see them legally employing the system if they reserve in  an automated system is to allow non-points users some prior of time to reserve their week (ie. 5 business days), then reserve any weeks for the deeds they hold.
> 
> But, this would not leave a lot of great weeks for their program. This would lead to their argument that they can automatically reserve a proportionate amount of available weeks based upon the deeds in the points program. While it seems fair and equitable, my opinion is that it would be a violation of the covenants. Quite a catch-22.



My head is still spinning.... 

I understand how inventory could (and hopefully will) be split so that non-converted weeks owners continue business as usual, competing for their fair percentage of non-converted weeks and with other non-converted owners.

BUT- how will legacy point owners reserving in their home resort (using weeks for the year) reserve- from the legacy point owners' + new point owners' pool? And if it is from that pool, does their having home resort priority mean that all other point owners will not be able to reserve at the 12 month mark? Unless they have a third and separate inventory for converted week owners electing to use their owned week, the only way the legacy point owners using their owned week could retain home resort priority was IF all points owners were not allowed to reserve at the 12 month mark. Legacy point owners and point owners could be allowed to reserve at 12 months minus even one day to allow for home resort advantage, but I'm confused as to how they could conceivably be allowed to reserve at the 12 month mark and still have a home resort advantage to those converted owners who elect to use their owned resort.

And I don't foresee Marriott selling a system where every new point owner can reserve anywhere they want to go, but where original owners at the resorts have a more advantageous reservation window than a generic points owner.

I'm sure I am missing something....The only way I see for everyone to be able to reserve at the same 12 month mark is if there are 3 separate inventories- (1)week owners who don't convert, (2) legacy week owners using their ownership weeks and (3)legacy point and new point owners booking wherever. Especially since numbers would constantly be in flux, that could be a nightmare to keep percentages fairly represented.

And, just for the record- once again- shocking as it may be - I agree with Sue- Marriott has been a good company to deal with. For the same reasons even 2 days away I am confident that Marirott will do right by all its owners and have a grandfathering for at least its current resale owners, I am dubious that Marriott will unfairly manipulate the inventory. I'm just trying to understand how it might work.


----------



## PerryM

Ah Geez here we go again; somehow I'm going to be blamed for this thread too...


----------



## tombo

SueDonJ said:


> The level of suspicion here is just mind-boggling.



I think Marriott is secretly trying to overthrow the world's monetary system replacing all known currency with the new and improved Marriott points. If you don't have Marriott points you won't be able to vacation, buy petrol, buy food, and lack of available marriott points will cause you to be put in debtor's prison. Marriott's goal is world domination and their points scheme is what they are using to acheive their goal. Yea that's their plan, I am sure about it, and no one is going to convince me otherwise!


----------



## taffy19

*An old but important post*

I believe that this person is an attorney so I paid attention to his post. To me this proves that there have to be two separate owner pots and may be three eventually for the owners of the all points resorts.

If we convert to the new system, we fall under one or the other set of rules. If you decide to use your Legacy week, you still have all the old rules in tact which includes the 13 months reservation perk if you own multiple weeks. If you decide to get points instead, then you fall under the new set of point rules. 

I have no idea which pool would be the best to belong to. The more points you use, the more time you can string together but it was the same for multiple week owners too because the more weeks you owned, the earlier you could make reservations. It may be easier now because there are no exceptions like continuously and whatever the other rules were.

I guess, it is still on a first come first service basis and the competing will be fierce for the best weeks in the seasons. 

I wonder what the next change in the industry will be?  Give me old fashioned fixed!  No messing with your deed.


----------



## SueDonJ

tombo said:


> I think Marriott is secretly trying to overthrow the world's monetary system replacing all known currency with the new and improved Marriott points. If you don't have Marriott points you won't be able to vacation, buy petrol, buy food, and lack of available marriott points will cause you to be put in debtor's prison. Marriott's goal is world domination and their points scheme is what they are using to acheive their goal. Yea that's their plan, I am sure about it, and no one is going to convince me otherwise!



Oh.  Well.  World Domination.  Gee.  That's way different than trying to beat out an owner for a July 4th week next year.

:hysterical: :hysterical:


----------



## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> Of course if Marriott is entitled to reserve at least some inventory on the same basis as every other owner, then it stands to reason that owners can at some point be in competition with Marriott for the same inventory.  But why all of a sudden do we think that they're going to manipulate the inventory or the reservation process to give themselves more than the equal footing they have?




What do you mean by "more than the equal footing they have"?  In a first come, first serve system?

I am not suggesting that there is, or will be, any manipulation occuring.  I am just trying to understand how, as a practical matter, the system is actually implemented, currently, when marriott and its owners are in competition with one another for reservations.  The answer to this question seems relevant, given that the competition may be about to increase dramatically.  

Trust is good, and to date, by and large, has seemed warranted, but facts are even better.

Does anyone know the answer to this?


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> ... And, just for the record- once again- shocking as it may be - I agree with Sue- Marriott has been a good company to deal with. For the same reasons even 2 days away I am confident that Marirott will do right by all its owners and have a grandfathering for at least its current resale owners, I am dubious that Marriott will unfairly manipulate the inventory. I'm just trying to understand how it might work.



I think it's a Red Letter day, m - we've agreed with each other so much lately that we're practically best friends now.   

Questioning how Marriott will make all this work, that makes sense to me.  Expecting that Marriott will rip us all off blind and step all over us to gain their World Domination (ha!), that doesn't make any sense at all.


----------



## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> What do you mean by "more than the equal footing they have"?  In a first come, first serve system?
> 
> I am not suggesting that there is, or will be, any manipulation occuring.  I am just trying to understand how, as a practical matter, the system is actually implemented, currently, when marriott and its owners are in competition with one another for reservations.  The answer to this question seems relevant, given that the competition may be about to increase dramatically.
> 
> Trust is good, and to date, by and large, has seemed warranted, but facts are even better.
> 
> Does anyone know the answer to this?



I would expect that currently they can access the reservation inventory the same way owners can - through the same website or on the same telephone line at exactly 9AM sharp on the days the 12-month windows open (or 13-month windows, if the contracts at any resorts allow it.)  In the absence of any hint that they've ever done it in a different fashion, I'm just not willing to accuse them of doing so.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> I think it's a Red Letter day, m - we've agreed with each other so much lately that we're practically best friends now.
> 
> Questioning how Marriott will make all this work, that makes sense to me.  Expecting that Marriott will rip us all off blind and step all over us to gain their World Domination (ha!), that doesn't make any sense at all.


:hysterical: 
Even though it's still a bit of speculation, at least for me having some understanding of how Marriott could design a manageable and equitable system would be a good tool for evaluating what they roll out.

I also hope that, although presumably Sunday is the roll out day, that there is a 3 month hiatus of sorts- so that business will be as usual during the peak summer month reservation season and that they don't institute a more complex reservation system until September, giving everyone time to assimilate, staff to become adept, and rolling out the practical parts (ie- beginning the new reservations) at a time where there is little if any peak demand system wide. I dain to imagine a new reservation system beginning during some of the busiest weeks of the year at many, if not most, properties.


----------



## davidvel

iconnections said:


> I believe that this person is an attorney so I paid attention to his post. To me this proves that there have to be two separate owner pots and may be three eventually for the owners of the all points resorts.
> 
> If we convert to the new system, we fall under one or the other set of rules. If you decide to use your Legacy week, you still have all the old rules in tact which includes the 13 months reservation perk if you own multiple weeks. If you decide to get points instead, then you fall under the new set of point rules.
> 
> I have no idea which pool would be the best to belong to. The more points you use, the more time you can string together but it was the same for multiple week owners too because the more weeks you owned, the earlier you could make reservations. It may be easier now because there are no exceptions like continuously and whatever the other rules were.
> 
> I guess, it is still on a first come first service basis and the competing will be fierce for the best weeks in the seasons.
> 
> I wonder what the next change in the industry will be?  Give me old fashioned fixed!  No messing with your deed.



The clarification that I would make is not that there won't be separate pots/pools/groups of weeks. (These exist now: weeks that marriott owns; weeks transferred to II; weeks transferred to Redweek; Weeks returned for points; weeks reserved and retained by owners).

My point is that according to the governing documents those *pools* OF RESERVED AND CONFIRMED ACTUAL WEEKS have to be created AFTER the week is reserved according to the governing documents.


----------



## jcjl1

What will happen to legacy owners who banked a week in  II for a trade back to their home in 2011.  I see no Ko Olina in May / June.  As a courtesy shouldn't those be availabble to the Legacy owners?  To clarify, it is an expiring July 4th week from a year ago.


----------



## m61376

davidvel said:


> The clarification that I would make is not that there won't be separate pots/pools/groups of weeks. (These exist now: weeks that marriott owns; weeks transferred to II; weeks transferred to Redweek; Weeks returned for points; weeks reserved and retained by owners).
> 
> My point is that according to the governing documents those *pools* OF RESERVED AND CONFIRMED ACTUAL WEEKS have to be created AFTER the week is reserved according to the governing documents.



But doesn't the percentage have to be created beforehand so the availability of reservations can be determined? I guess the semantics are important, but essentially whether we are talking about pools of availability to reserve or actual pools of weeks, aren't we essentially referring to the same thing?


----------



## pwrshift

Years ago I bought Beachplace...and my rep called about a year later to say, for $1500 per week current owners could join the new Florida Club...the spin on it seemed great.  I joined and it was totally useless to me.  So, for a dollar less I can get THIS brand new benefit?  Fool me once ...    

Brian


----------



## jimf41

I don't get it. You folks are all so negative. Enough with the negative vibes. $1499 isn't a lot but it's enough to get me to enroll my plat weeks in the new system. If they want the Plat plus week they're going to have to pay me more than that though.


----------



## davidvel

m61376 said:


> But doesn't the percentage have to be created beforehand so the availability of reservations can be determined? I guess the semantics are important, but essentially whether we are talking about pools of availability to reserve or actual pools of weeks, aren't we essentially referring to the same thing?



No. The semantics and specific processes are crucial. You have to distinguish weeks that have yet to be reserved (ie just a potential reservation in your season) vs. a confirmed RESERVED week. This is the important distinction that many are blurring. 

It is my (legal) opinion that any process that sets up percentages to determine reservations violates the covenants. This is based upon a reading of the covenants. 

If Marriott owns or controls certain weeks they have to reserve just like any other owner (except they don't get 13 mo. priority) with no built-in advantage or automatic allocation, then put that RESERVED week into its points program.  

My post above which refers to a "catch 22" illustrates the problem.


----------



## m61376

jimf41 said:


> I don't get it. You folks are all so negative. Enough with the negative vibes. $1499 isn't a lot but it's enough to get me to enroll my plat weeks in the new system. If they want the Plat plus week they're going to have to pay me more than that though.



:rofl: that's the best line yet!!


----------



## m61376

Couldn't Marriott then legally say that x % of weeks can potentially be reserved by week owners, y % by legacy week owners who have converted but are reserving their owned weeks, and z% can potentially be reserved by Marriott for its point system and then transfer the right to actually reserve those weeks to the point owners?

There has to be a cut-off point for each ownership group, doesn't there? The only other way would for there to be a single pool, with a free for all, unless they only allow legacy owners using their home resort to reserve on day one and point owners at 12 months minus one day, so that home resort priority is retained throughout. Or possibly points will be points, but will be sold attached to a choice of a single resort to allow for a home resort advantage at one property.

Just when I thought I was starting to understand this


----------



## dioxide45

tombo said:


> As I said in a previous post, it has been said here that Marriott currently owns 60% of the MVC's total inventory. If they own 60%, then they have plenty of weeks/days/ weekends to allocate to anything they want like Marriott reward points, the new upcoming points that will be used by the new points members, and anything else they see fit to use their 60% of the weeks for I assume.



I would be surprised if that 60% were true. If it is, Marriott is truly in trouble. It took them 25 years to only sell 40% of their inventory? Sure inventory changed over time and the total number of units did also, but I just don't buy it. That leaves them with 45 years of inventory to sell?


----------



## jlf58

2/3 of the way to 1000 views. My day is complete


----------



## jlf58

Just a guess, MVCI got caught with more unsold inventory than anyone in the industry but they still only have probably about 25% unsold. The bad news is thats billions of dollars. 



dioxide45 said:


> I would be surprised if that 60% were true. If it is, Marriott is truly in trouble. It took them 30 years to only sell 40% of their inventory? Sure inventory changed over time and the total number of units did also, but I just don't buy it. That leaves them with 45 years of inventory to sell?


----------



## m61376

Fletch said:


> Just a guess, MVCI got caught with more unsold inventory than anyone in the industry but they still only have probably about 25% unsold. The bad news is thats billions of dollars.



Besides Marco and perhaps Lakeshore, whose sales probably were decimated by the economy, what percent of those weeks are Plat. weeks and what percent Silver and Bronze? Is this new system really a sales-tool to sell those less desirable weeks?


----------



## jlf58

Lakeshore is ahead of sales pace. Marco could never sell out so the points will save it. Oceana is another thats doing average at best.



m61376 said:


> Besides Marco and perhaps Lakeshore, whose sales probably were decimated by the economy, what percent of those weeks are Plat. weeks and what percent Silver and Bronze? Is this new system really a sales-tool to sell those less desirable weeks?


----------



## taffy19

davidvel said:


> No. The semantics and specific processes are crucial. You have to distinguish weeks that have yet to be reserved (ie just a potential reservation in your season) vs. a confirmed RESERVED week. This is the important distinction that many are blurring.
> 
> It is my (legal) opinion that any process that sets up percentages to determine reservations violates the covenants. This is based upon a reading of the covenants.
> 
> If Marriott owns or controls certain weeks they have to reserve just like any other owner (except they don't get 13 mo. priority) with no built-in advantage or automatic allocation, then put that RESERVED week into its points program.
> 
> My post above which refers to a "catch 22" illustrates the problem.


What happens to the old contracts at resorts where this clause is absent too? They are from before the time when the 13 months' reservation perk came into being? I am curious as I am convinced that it wasn't in our contract.

I am sorry but I don't understand what you explained in post #2797. Am I right to assume that nobody is losing any rights that originally came with the deed but it is still on a first come first service basis like it used to be before?  Does it mean too that people from other resorts will have to wait or not?  That isn't yet clear.


----------



## taffy19

Fletch said:


> 2/3 of the way to 1000 views. My day is complete


Where or how do you find that? Please, explain. Thanks.


----------



## m61376

iconnections said:


> Where or how do you find that? Please, explain. Thanks.


You can see the number of views on the Marriott Board page, by where the time and poster of the last thread is, next to the number of replies.


----------



## taffy19

m61376 said:


> You can see the number of views on the Marriott Board page, by where the time and poster of the last thread is, next to the number of replies.


Thanks. The thread is very popular, I notice.  One thing though, I like the title a lot better than what we had before. This may be our last day then to post in this thread because tomorrow_Sunday_, the facts will be posted, I hope. 

PS. I meant Sunday. I never know what date or day it is.


----------



## davidvel

iconnections said:


> What happens to the old contracts at resorts where this clause is absent too? They are from before the time when the 13 months' reservation perk came into being? I am curious as I am convinced that it wasn't in our contract.


If not, Marriott and your HOA are likely violating your rights. (It is my opinion that even under the 13 month rule, only owners with two or more weeks at the same resort can reserve at that resort, but that's for another thread.)


> I am sorry but I don't understand what you explained in post #2797. Am I right to assume that nobody is losing any rights that originally came with the deed but it is still on a first come first service basis like it used to be before?


Yes, unless they voluntarily give up their rights.


> Does it mean too that people from other resorts will have to wait or not?  That isn't yet clear.


I  don't know what Marriott will do, these are only my (legal) opinions as to what they legally can do.


----------



## SueDonJ

davidvel said:


> ... (It is my opinion that even under the 13 month rule, only owners with two or more weeks at the same resort can reserve at that resort, but that's for another thread.) ...



No sense clogging up the board with another thread ...   

I know the docs you've posted for your resort stipulate that the multi-weeks can only be reserved at that same resort, but not all of the resorts' docs contain the same language.  SurfWatch's definitely do not.  So why do you think that Marriott should be enforcing something across the board that's not in all the docs, instead of the way they do it which adheres to the docs with the less restrictive language?  I get that you don't see what gives them the right as the management company to uniformly enforce reservation rules when there are obvious differences in the docs of the different resorts.  But I don't understand, am asking, why you think that if they are going to apply a uniform policy, it should be the more restrictive one?


----------



## LAX Mom

Fletch said:


> 2/3 of the way to 1000 views. My day is complete



Happy to help! 

I got bored with the other thread (all the speculation without facts) a long time ago. I see no point in speculating until we have some facts to consider.


----------



## andrea t

I confess...I took the bait!


----------



## dougp26364

Fletch said:


> 2/3 of the way to 1000 views. My day is complete



I'm thinking that this is a lot like tossing fish food into the water and watching the fish go nuts trying to get at it. Nothing like a group of timeshare owners starved for the latest information. Hook, line and sinker Fletch.  

At least there's now some clue as to what resale owners will pay to get in.


----------



## davidvel

SueDonJ said:


> No sense clogging up the board with another thread ...
> 
> I know the docs you've posted for your resort stipulate that the multi-weeks can only be reserved at that same resort, but not all of the resorts' docs contain the same language.  SurfWatch's definitely do not.  So why do you think that Marriott should be enforcing something across the board that's not in all the docs, instead of the way they do it which adheres to the docs with the less restrictive language?  I get that you don't see what gives them the right as the management company to uniformly enforce reservation rules when there are obvious differences in the docs of the different resorts.  But I don't understand, am asking, why you think that if they are going to apply a uniform policy, it should be the more restrictive one?



You are right Sue, I have only read the governing docs for Shadow Ridge. I cannot vouch for others. It is my understnading that most resorts (except the oldest) have the same covenant language, although the reality is there is no exactly uniform language. For a legal perspective, each resort (and its underlying deeds and covenants) are legally distinct with nothing in common but a management company. Your example is like having a common management company for 2 condos with completely different rules and just applying the least restrictive rules to both.  

Strictly speaking my comments should be that my HOA (Shadow Ridge Owners assn) and its manager Marriott cannot (legally in my opinion) allow anyone who does not own two weeks at Shadow Ridge to reserve at 13 months in advance. What other Associations allow is subject to their particular covenants. I'm happy to debate it in a new thread, but dont; want to cheat the Aruba thread.


----------



## NJDave

Fletch said:


> So, does anyone have them yet  ?
> 
> It's my day off and I was bored



You could have spent the day contacting your friends at Marriott to find out 100% of the details!

A bunch of Tuggers will have to either calll in sick on Monday or be unproductive at work if we don't get the details before then.


----------



## dioxide45

Fletch said:


> Just a guess, MVCI got caught with more unsold inventory than anyone in the industry but they still only have probably about 25% unsold. The bad news is thats billions of dollars.



This sounds like a number I can better believe than the 60%. 25% is still a lot and is years worth of inventory, even in a points system. The problem is that Marriott can easily sell prime weeks just about any day, but those off weeks are what they have trouble moving. This points system lets them now sell a prime week to every buyer.



m61376 said:


> Besides Marco and perhaps Lakeshore, whose sales probably were decimated by the economy, what percent of those weeks are Plat. weeks and what percent Silver and Bronze? Is this new system really a sales-tool to sell those less desirable weeks?





Fletch said:


> Lakeshore is ahead of sales pace. Marco could never sell out so the points will save it. Oceana is another thats doing average at best.



It is a shame about Marco, it is a great location that Marriott bought at the top of the boom, truly a lost gamble. It happens. They took their markdowns and now the only way to sell it is with points. They can sell the prime weeks there all over again  

That is if this thing even happens, I still think it is all just a rumor.


----------



## dioxide45

Here is the thing about split inventory. Marriott really doesn't need to to it. They know that x% of people never bother to even book a week, so they know that they can book points people in to just about any resort and still know that they have that cushion to reserve to the people in weeks that are guaranteed a week. In the beginning points people will be in the minority and will be for a very long time, possibly forever. Marriott knows they also have their own inventory that they can put up to cover points people. The problem occurs when they reserve a points owner in to a sold out season. Marriott probably also has some limited prime weeks that they are holding on to from foreclosures. You may see Marriott exercise ROFR on prime seasons just so they can put them in to the trust.

You will still see lots of weeks show up in II, they may be less prime and it may take a little longer, but there will be plenty to be had.


----------



## dioxide45

*ROFR Database*

What does this mean for my database? It isn't set up to handle points. Not looking forward to an update


----------



## jlf58

done and done


----------



## dioxide45

Fletch said:


> 2/3 of the way to 1000 views. My day is complete



Only a few more to go. Cutting yourself short. You set your goal at 1000 and then consider it a success at only 2/3? That doesn't sound like success to me, though you will still succeed in the end.


----------



## dioxide45

The interesting thing about the Aruba thread vs. the new points system one is that the Aruba thread has about 30,000 more views than the new system. That would indicate more people are participating in the points system, where there were more lookieloos in the Aruba one.


----------



## jlf58

see, thats why I am successful. Its a numbers game and 2/3 at that time of day means it was a lock LOL 



dioxide45 said:


> Only a few more to go. Cutting yourself short. You set your goal at 1000 and then consider it a success at only 2/3? That doesn't sound like success to me, though you will still succeed in the end.


----------



## billymach4

dioxide45 said:


> The interesting thing about the Aruba thread vs. the new points system one is that the Aruba thread has about 30,000 more views than the new system. That would indicate more people are participating in the points system, where there were more lookieloos in the Aruba one.



The Aruba Thread has been around much longer now. The Speculation thread just skyrocketed in the recent 2 weeks. The Speculation thread has a steeper participation curve.


----------



## dioxide45

billymach4 said:


> The Aruba Thread has been around much longer now. The Speculation thread just skyrocketed in the recent 2 weeks. The Speculation thread has a steeper participation curve.



Not sure though if the speculation thread will top Aruba in views. Once any details are available, this or a new thread will skyrocket and the speculation thread will die a quick death. That is if anything is even announced.


----------



## m61376

dioxide45 said:


> What does this mean for my database? It isn't set up to handle weeks. Not looking forward to an update



Hmmm...maybe that should be in lieu of your sign up fee- after all, look at how much work it may entail for Marriott's benefit :hysterical:


----------



## hipslo

SueDonJ said:


> I would expect that currently they can access the reservation inventory the same way owners can - through the same website or on the same telephone line at exactly 9AM sharp on the days the 12-month windows open (or 13-month windows, if the contracts at any resorts allow it.)



Sort of like - hello marriott, this is marriott?


----------



## Dean

PerryM said:


> Imagine it's 8 AM CST in November and it's 13 months before week 52 opens at Park City.  Marriott's salesreps have been selling thousands of owners the dream of New Year's Eve on the slopes at Park City.
> 
> Ding - it's 8 AM and 5,000 folks click the mouse to make a reservation....
> 
> Well this ain't TV and there are only 200 villas at MountainSide and 200 at Summit Watch (approximate) and only 400 owners can get those reservations - at the very max.  Throw out 50% of the inventory at 13 months and only 200 reservations can be issued at the max.
> 
> Of course Marriott has to have a deed behind any available reservation and that's part of the job of the Points/Weeks Calendar - it has to be loaded with deeds in order for reservations to be issued.  They can't fudge this.  Just like right now - "No reservations left".
> 
> So only 1 pool of reservations needs to be kept.
> 
> When Marriott builds new Point oriented Resorts there has to be 2 pools of inventory - one for Resale Points/Legacy Points and one for Point Resorts which probably will keep out those kinds of folks...
> 
> A deed is a deed....indeed.


No Perry, weeks owners cannot have access to weeks assigned to the points program and vice versa.  There has to be separate inventories.



m61376 said:


> Dean-
> Let me see if I am getting this- are you saying basically that:
> -week owners who decide to stay as is will have a proportionate number of weeks to reserve of each week in their season according to the percentage of week owners and will get to make their reservations at 12 months (or 13 months if they retain the 13 month rule)
> -legacy week owners who opt into the new points system will have a proportionate number of weeks to reserve of each week in their season according to the percentage of ownership weeks in the new system (converted owners + unsold inventory) and, of course, will be sharing that inventory with new points owners. BUT- legacy week owners who opt to use their week in any given year will be able to reserve at the 12 month mark, while legacy point owners (legacy week owners converting to points in a given year) will only be able to reserve closer in, perhaps at the 10 or 11 month mark


That is my understanding in principle.  Don't know the exact timing of when those in points can reserve their weeks and when points owners can then reserve after that but the principles you state are really the way it must be.



> Now, where do new point owners fall in this pool? If they have no home resort- since it has been said a point is a point- they don't have a home resort priority to book anywhere. Does that mean they also have to wait to the 10 or 11 month mark to book anywhere? Or do they compete with the legacy week owners in the new program but using their week (but that would mean they didn't get home resort priority)? It seems like there would have to be a third pool of inventory unless no point owner could booth until week owners had first crack at the reservations (and, in reality, first crack could even mean one day in advance, not a month or two).


My assumption is that other than a points owner taking their week in lieu of points, everyone would compete after that.  I doubt that you'll have an priority at your home resort using your points themselves and would simply be in the points pool.  It would be possible to add an additional group with home resort priority using points but it makes no sense to do so unless they are going to have a home resort priority in points for all resorts which those getting the best info suggest is not the case.



> Lastly- and I think this will be a big negative personally- is it your understanding from all this that a legacy week owner will have to use his/her entire week as a single unit to retain home resort priority for booking and that the unit cannot be split (or that if it is split both halves are used as weeks reservations at one's home resort)? That would mean that a legacy week owner who converts to take advantage of internal exchanges could not use their 1BR part at their home resort and book with home resort priority while trying to book their studio (or combining points with perhaps another partial or full unit) elsewhere using the point based internal exchange system. So either they would have to give up home resort advantage when booking their partial unit or exchange externally via II. That would preclude owners from a very big benefit- the potential to combine left-over points from partial units. It seems as though even in the new system it would be weeks or points, except just on a yearly basis.


Based on what has been said here by those seeming to have the best info, it is my understanding you'll have to take the unit either in it's entirety OR points.  I would ASSUME that you could still lockoff for 2 separate reservations and trade one and not the other if you wanted.  I would not expect them to require you to forego the lockoff options completely just that you couldn't take points on the studio and use the 1 BR of a l/o just like you can't now with MR points.  

Realize please that my interpretation is my own and comes from my sense of what they can and can't do legally, what is most likely and what has been posted on this board from those that have gotten real info for a real source.  I also include the assumption that Marriott will at least act legally even if not member friendly.  Unlike some have said, I feel like I can look at this objectively and totally separate what I want vs from what I think will and likely should happen.  Therefore take it for what it's worth.  



Y-ASK said:


> Wait a minute!  If I purchase points from Marriott and they combine all of the different resorts maintenance fees together and split them up amongst the new owners, does that mean I have to pay for that stupid roof down in Aruba?
> 
> Y-ASK


Potentially though I doubt it in this case.  IF they put the points into a trust they could charge dues based on a given resort OR they could average them over the entire trust.  I think Wyndham does it the former, BG currently does it that latter for the points now being sold.  Here's an example of how it could work.  I got into BG by converting fixed weeks.  Had I still owned the fixed weeks when a SA came along, I would have owed right at $8000 or $1000 for each studio and 1 BR.  A 3 BR double lockoff would have been a $3K SA.  Instead with my points being in the latest trust (they have several), I paid only around $60 total even though my points are still based at the resort in question.  It acts much like insurance by averaging the risk over a much larger pool.  It also simplifies the system for the management company.


----------



## Dean

Swice said:


> From a business perspective, I do wonder why they would still be training on a Saturday?   Is Saturday not a big tour/presentation day?


My understanding is that Sat/Sun are low days due to turnover.  I've gotten an extra $50 a couple of times from Marriott to tour on those days to $125.


----------



## dioxide45

Dean said:


> My understanding is that Sat/Sun are low days due to turnover.  I've gotten an extra $50 a couple of times from Marriott to tour on those days to $125.



Correct, they won't ever let someone tour on check out day. They want to make sure they can keep you there to work you as long as they need to. They don't want you proclaiming that you have to leave to catch your flight.


----------



## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> Correct, they won't ever let someone tour on check out day. They want to make sure they can keep you there to work you as long as they need to. They don't want you proclaiming that you have to leave to catch your flight.


I think the other part is it's simply hard to get you signed up to tour on those days as well due to physically not being present for part of the time and due to fear of not being able to make it.


----------



## SueDonJ

hipslo said:


> Sort of like - hello marriott, this is marriott?



Well that sounds pretty foolish but I guess it must be something like that.  Now you have me paranoid, though, that we have no way of asking them how they do this.  Somewhere in the auditing process this kind of thing MUST be catalogued, I think?  But how do we get our hands on the audit reports?

Oh gosh, now your Borg has assimilated me!


----------



## SueDonJ

davidvel said:


> You are right Sue, I have only read the governing docs for Shadow Ridge. I cannot vouch for others. It is my understnading that most resorts (except the oldest) have the same covenant language, although the reality is there is no exactly uniform language. For a legal perspective, each resort (and its underlying deeds and covenants) are legally distinct with nothing in common but a management company. Your example is like having a common management company for 2 condos with completely different rules and just applying the least restrictive rules to both.
> 
> Strictly speaking my comments should be that my HOA (Shadow Ridge Owners assn) and its manager Marriott cannot (legally in my opinion) allow anyone who does not own two weeks at Shadow Ridge to reserve at 13 months in advance. What other Associations allow is subject to their particular covenants. I'm happy to debate it in a new thread, but dont; want to cheat the Aruba thread.



Nah, no need, we can wait for another time when one of these gigantic threads isn't eating up all the space.  Thanks for the response.


----------



## m61376

Thanks Dean!

I recognize even assuming that the information posted here turns out to be true, there is a lot of missing info.. I am just trying to understand the basics so that I'll be able to intelligently (or at least semi-intelligently) decipher what is presented, and at least recognize what info. they've left out.

I wonder if they will e-mail the point schedule to every owner, or only what each individual's week is worth. In reality, we'd all need to see a chart with every resort/season/size/view to be able to determine relative values. I hope we don't have to piece the information together.


----------



## SueDonJ

m61376 said:


> Thanks Dean!
> 
> I recognize even assuming that the information posted here turns out to be true, there is a lot of missing info.. I am just trying to understand the basics so that I'll be able to intelligently (or at least semi-intelligently) decipher what is presented, and at least recognize what info. they've left out.
> 
> I wonder if they will e-mail the point schedule to every owner, or only what each individual's week is worth. In reality, we'd all need to see a chart with every resort/season/size/view to be able to determine relative values. I hope we don't have to piece the information together.



But any owner registered at my-vacationclub.com has access to the calendar and dues statements and GM's notices and Annual Meeting minutes, etc ... that are found by using the "Owners" tab at each of the resort's pages.  They could put the point requirements there, too.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> But any owner registered at my-vacationclub.com has access to the calendar and dues statements and GM's notices and Annual Meeting minutes, etc ... that are found by using the "Owners" tab at each of the resort's pages.  They could put the point requirements there, too.



The problem is that most of the time the information in the Owners tab is out of date. For Grande Vista there are no meeting minutes for the past two years. I think the responsibility of keeping these tabs up to date is on the resorts to provide the information they want published to Marriott, then Marriott posts it.

I think it is much more likely that the new website www.marriottvacationclubdestinations.com will have any information necessary. Points charts will likely be available to points owners and converters at that site.


----------



## dioxide45

Has anyone attempted to contact Telesales at all? Are they closed also, what information do they provide or what message is provided to indicate their closure?


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> Thanks Dean!
> 
> I recognize even assuming that the information posted here turns out to be true, there is a lot of missing info.. I am just trying to understand the basics so that I'll be able to intelligently (or at least semi-intelligently) decipher what is presented, and at least recognize what info. they've left out.
> 
> I wonder if they will e-mail the point schedule to every owner, or only what each individual's week is worth. In reality, we'd all need to see a chart with every resort/season/size/view to be able to determine relative values. I hope we don't have to piece the information together.


I think that's what most of us are trying to do.  That's why I don't see this as a wasted thread like some do plus it's been somewhat entertaining at time.  I am at HH in a week with a tour scheduled that weekend.  The info here suggests that I'll seriously consider converting all of my weeks assuming one fee for all, one club fee and access to my underlying high demand weeks.  Even at minimally higher costs, the added flexibility will be worth it if all turns out as it's looking.  So far it's shaping up to be a win win for most that own multiple weeks and for Marriott.  Even better would be a VIP system as I'd likely be able to find a way to get into it at the top level.


----------



## pwrshift

I might be the only one here that hasn't even looked at the Aruba thread.  :whoopie: 

Brian


----------



## winger

Dean said:


> ...I am at HH in a week with a tour scheduled that weekend.  The info here suggests that I'll seriously consider converting all of my weeks assuming one fee for all, one club fee and access to my underlying high demand weeks.  ....



Bring your checkbook to the 'tour' and put it on the table when the sales rep introduces himself. Let him MAKE the sale, tell you ALL the juicy details.  See how he reacts to an apparent easy, willing 'new customer'.


----------



## wsrobinson

*Nothing New*

I'm sure this has already been covered here but ... Why wouldn't Marriott try to convert their current system to a points based system.  Timesharing is ingenious (selling the same week at some place 52 weeks over) but a points based system is much more brilliant.  You convert owners weeks telling them they can go to a desired place for X number of points.  Then, you simply raise the point values to go to the desired place and force the owner to buy more points.  So, the owner is always on the hook!  Sounds alot like what Fairfield/Wyndham did/does?  As a side effect, owners weeks are devalued to almost nothing (like Fairfield/Wyndham/WM).  At some properties, this won't happen but at others...I guarantee it will.  Just my two cents.

BTW. I am in HH starting Sunday and got the call last night from a guy who said his nickname is "the vacation guy" who persistently tried to book me a time slot to discuss Marriott's brand new program which they are rolling out Sunday.  I told him I couldn't commit and he stressed the "importance and significance" of the new program to me.  He was disappointed that I wouldn't share his enthusiasm and commit to a time.


----------



## m61376

SueDonJ said:


> But any owner registered at my-vacationclub.com has access to the calendar and dues statements and GM's notices and Annual Meeting minutes, etc ... that are found by using the "Owners" tab at each of the resort's pages.  They could put the point requirements there, too.



That's true; hopefully at the very least they will do that. And it won't take long before some enterprising Tugger makes a spreadsheet of all fifty resorts, since the only way to really understand the system will be to compare and contrast. What would be nice is if Marriott just released a chart either in the e-mail or as a website link.

In retrospect, this is the natural culmination of their year of sales. When you think about it, how many times have people commented that Marriott couldn't go back to full prices after running all these sales because it would take a long time before people weren't waiting for the next special. Not selling weeks anymore eliminates that issue.

Unfortunately, selling points also lets Marriott sell its less desirable inventory. much of it in weeks people don't want to go to, while increasing the competition for the better weeks that people bought into.


----------



## m61376

wsrobinson said:


> BTW. I am in HH starting Sunday and got the call last night from a guy who said his nickname is "the vacation guy" who persistently tried to book me a time slot to discuss Marriott's brand new program which they are rolling out Sunday.  I told him I couldn't commit and he stressed the "importance and significance" of the new program to me.  He was disappointed that I wouldn't share his enthusiasm and commit to a time.


Those on vacation next week are the best resource to inquire about the new program and ask the unanswered questions. I never do these tours (DH can't be bothered) but I would go in a heartbeat if I was going away over the next few weeks. By the end of the summer, when we are going, I'm guessing the more brilliant minds here will have fully digested this already and there will already be tips on playing the system.

Personally, I really hope one can use home resort priority to book part of a unit and then points to book with the locked off half, although from others' posts it appears likely to be that the unit must be used as a whole as a legacy week in the new system. I know that would lose a lot of flexibility. For example, I booked my 3BR intending to use the whole unit. My daughter had a conflict and decided not to go this summer, so I locked off and deposited the studio. It would be nice if I could just take the points from that deposit and use them towards another trip. Not everyone decides at booking whether or not to lock off- that's one of the beauties of the lock off system. It seems to me that by not allowing partial home week use/partial point use that Marriott will be ensuring that many owners, who like to use at least part of their unit at their home resort, will be depositing into II rather than their internal system. 

So- a few more questions to add to Sue's list:
-what happens with lock-offs and use of legacy weeks for home resort priority? Can part of the unit be booked as a week (and use home resort priority) and part with points, and can a unit be later locked off and a side exchanged for its point value?
-What about the issue of borrowing and banking? Can points be rented, either from Marriott or from another MVCI owner?
-What about the issue of renting? II doesn't allow rentals of exchanges. Can an owner try to nab the best weeks now not to enhance trade but to rent? If so, we may be replacing the perceived solution to one headache with another (and, admittedly- lest there be lots of arguments about this- just as many consider booking the best weeks to maximize their trade value in II as a fair way of maximizing their ownership value, this will be considered fair by many too). Of course, people do that now as well, but in the new system they will be able to really use the system to their advantage, presumably because they may have access to the best weeks at resorts with the highest rental yields (which of course will mean increased competition for those week 52's at hot destinations).


Are you keeping track of the list, Sue?


----------



## mpizza

That speculation thread is a riot!  I suggest we all read "Who Moved My Cheese" 

Fletch, I trust you'll give us the facts as soon as you can.

Maria


----------



## m61376

Fletch- I hope you don't plan on getting too much work done at DVC this week- you may be too busy answering questions here! After all your tantalizing hints, let's face it: INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW - and we want DETAILS!!! 

Since the "official" release date is Sunday, does that mean at 12:01 you can post all the salient details? Don't you want to spend Father's Day chatting with mostly strangers?:rofl:


----------



## jlf58

If it's Sunday, someone should just call telesales and talk to a sales person. 
I don't even own a Marriott anymore so I am not that concered  



m61376 said:


> Fletch- I hope you don't plan on getting too much work done at DVC this week- you may be too busy answering questions here! After all your tantalizing hints, let's face it: INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW - and we want DETAILS!!!
> 
> Since the "official" release date is Sunday, does that mean at 12:01 you can post all the salient details? Don't you want to spend Father's Day chatting with mostly strangers?:rofl:


----------



## m61376

pwrshift said:


> I might be the only one here that hasn't even looked at the Aruba thread.  :whoopie:
> 
> Brian



But, Brian, how many times have you looked at this and the speculation thread? More importantly will be your participation in tomorrow's thread- many of us will be relying on your (amongst others with similar long term knowledge of the system) analysis.

Hope you, Dave, Fletch, etc. (the list goes on...) have cleared your calendars for the week :rofl:


----------



## dougp26364

mpizza said:


> That speculation thread is a riot!  I suggest we all read "Who Moved My Cheese"
> 
> Fletch, I trust you'll give us the facts as soon as you can.
> 
> Maria





Exellent point and an excellent little book to read. 

I went to bed early last night (long day, little sleep, long story). So was the goal accomplished?


----------



## suenmike32

Hmmmm...
I'm following along as best I can
The $1499.00 (if this is an accurate figure) is not too too bad..
but I'm wondering if that is a number to convert all my units to the new point system?
I have 3 platinum in Florida and 1 gold in S.C.
6K (for all four) would not be a good thing (at least for me)
Needless to say, they are all resales. Reason being...we never cared about the points. We use our units every year.
Any comments?


----------



## dougp26364

We'll be at a Marriott next week but, I'm not inclined to blow half a day listening to a pitch to convert and buy more points. Maybe if I explain I don't want to waste a salesmans time but would like the information, in writing, on the new system, I can get them to give it to me. Or perhaps I can sign up for a sales tour, tell them to keep any incentives and just give me the conversion info to save a salesmans time. 

I know it's a numbers game. I know the salemanager is going to want a salesman to take their best shot but, I also know that I currently own 1 or 2 more timeshares than I can effeciently use right now and I'm not interested in adding on to the MF's I'm already paying each year.

I'll ask for the written info but, I suspect they won't want to give it to me without the presentation. With this being a short trip for us (we're only staying 4 nights out of the full weeks), I'm not wanting to waste 1/2 a day listening to a pitch to buy additional points I can't use and don't want or need.


----------



## dougp26364

suenmike32 said:


> Hmmmm...
> I'm following along as best I can
> The $1499.00 (if this is an accurate figure) is not too too bad..
> but I'm wondering if that is a number to convert all my units to the new point system?
> I have 3 platinum in Florida and 1 gold in S.C.
> 6K (for all four) would not be a good thing (at least for me)
> Needless to say, they are all resales. Reason being...we never cared about the points. We use our units every year.
> Any comments?



Points systems are set up to improve the efficiency of exchanging. If you use your units rather than exchanging them, paying to convert to a points based system and then paying the management fee's that are bound to go along with said points based system is likely to be a waste of money. 

We converted to DRI's points based system but, it only made sense for us because we were using those units 100% of the time for exchanging. The points based system gave us more options and, also saved us money over the long run. However, if all I was doing was booking back into our home resort, there would have been no savings and no advantage to joining.

With our Marriott ownership, I'm in a different position. We've are content to use our home resorts rather than exchange. But, we bought three bedroom units and have been exchanging the lock-off portions. We've also used request first exchanges to exchange out of one of our ownerships but, only if the exchange we wanted was available. Twice that exchange has been available. I think it's going to be a tougher decision for use with Marriott than it was with DRI. 

At $1,449, I'll probably stick with what we have. If it's $699 as reported in the other thread (we bought direct) and, if the annual membership isn't to high and, if I can see value in combining the points left over if we only reserve the equivelent of the master suite's we use and, if I believe I can always get the unit/view I want then, maybe it will be worth converting. I'm not particularly optimistic that any new points based internal exchange sytem is going to be all that and a bag of chips for us based on how we anticipate using our ownership for the forseable future.


----------



## Dean

winger said:


> Bring your checkbook to the 'tour' and put it on the table when the sales rep introduces himself. Let him MAKE the sale, tell you ALL the juicy details.  See how he reacts to an apparent easy, willing 'new customer'.


I don't work that way.  I'll get all the info and read the fine print before making any true decision.  If things work the way it's looking it will ultimately be an easy decision in my situation but I won't be signing up until I'm certain.


----------



## suenmike32

I wonder though...if there will be any "disadvantages", when it comes to booking our units (in the time frame that we want)?
We typically can use the 13 month rule and usually always get the times we like
(give or take a few days).
Mike


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> Or perhaps I can sign up for a sales tour, tell them to keep any incentives and just give me the conversion info to save a salesmans time.



I know I've signed up for a question and answer session basically in the past- refused the sales presentation, gave up the tour incentives, but was able to craft the session to my needs. Since I wasn't getting paid (or given any promos) to be their captive audience, the entire session centered around getting answers to my questions. I learned more in what stretched out to be a bit over an hour I guess than likely I would have at multiple sales tours. I did have to repeatedly remind the salesman that I wasn't interested in seeing their videos but just wanted answers. That, of course, was before I realized that Tuggers were an easier and better source.

I'm guessing, though, that over the next few weeks much of what we'll know will be gotten from either tours or infosessions like that. I suspect that what is in writing will leave many questions unanswered. It is the nuances and applications which will likely determine the real program benefits. Of course, what isn't literally in writing can change tomorrow.


----------



## Dean

m61376 said:


> Of course, what isn't literally in writing can change tomorrow.


Actually some of what is in writing can change that easily and quickly without recourse as well.


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> At $1,449, I'll probably stick with what we have. If it's $699 as reported in the other thread (we bought direct) and, if the annual membership isn't to high and, if I can see value in combining the points left over if we only reserve the equivelent of the master suite's we use and, if I believe I can always get the unit/view I want then, maybe it will be worth converting. I'm not particularly optimistic that any new points based internal exchange sytem is going to be all that and a bag of chips for us based on how we anticipate using our ownership for the forseable future.



I'm kinda in a similar position, basically using where we bought but would like the flexibility of exchanging with guaranteed views and booking rather than exchanging. I think for real flexibility I'd need to see the ability to book either part of whole with home resort advantage and the other half perhaps using points (to maximize the lock-off feature), with banking/borrowing and perhaps renting of points to fill a small deficit if need be.

The other issue will be cost of course. If the 599/699 figure is valid, then that's a great start. Is that for direct purchasers only? Fletch hinted at a 1499 figure- is that the $$'s we're looking at- and is it for one or all weeks? How will resales fare in the new system? So many questions.... Today will be a long day, and perhaps tomorrow equally as frustrating- family time and not computer time.


----------



## dougp26364

m61376 said:


> I'm kinda in a similar position, basically using where we bought but would like the flexibility of exchanging with guaranteed views and booking rather than exchanging. I think for real flexibility I'd need to see the ability to book either part of whole with home resort advantage and the other half perhaps using points (to maximize the lock-off feature), with banking/borrowing and perhaps renting of points to fill a small deficit if need be.
> 
> The other issue will be cost of course. If the 599/699 figure is valid, then that's a great start. Is that for direct purchasers only? Fletch hinted at a 1499 figure- is that the $$'s we're looking at- and is it for one or all weeks? How will resales fare in the new system? So many questions.... Today will be a long day, and perhaps tomorrow equally as frustrating- family time and not computer time.



A word of caution about renting. You need to read the rules of the program in detail.  Some clubs prohibit the rental of points for profit. As I see it, this is basically their attempt to keep people from buying points cheap on the resale market, then opening up their own for profit vacation rental company. 

I don't know that Marriott will attempt the same thing but, controlling inventory is a big advantage to the developer with points based systems. Setting up a system only to have it exploited by individuals damages the ability of owners wanting to use their points for vacation and sets up compition for the developer, who may be wanting to rent the units at the same resorts.

I would like to think that those who only rent a few points won't be viewed in a negative light. Only those that buy units/points resale in mass and who's only purpose is to rent for profit would be affected.


----------



## dougp26364

suenmike32 said:


> I wonder though...if there will be any "disadvantages", when it comes to booking our units (in the time frame that we want)?
> We typically can use the 13 month rule and usually always get the times we like
> (give or take a few days).
> Mike



The disadvantage I see is that you're not guarenteed any particular unit style, location of view. All points owners will be competing with each other for the unit description that fits their needs. This is a two way street though as some owners want the most expsenvie units points wise while others want to conserve their points and take more vacations. 

For instance, I own a 3 bedroom ocean front unit at Ocean Pointe. Let's say I bought this unit because of the size family we had at the time, not for the ocean front view. 3 bedroom units at Ocean Pointe are all ocean front views.

Now it's 10 years down the line, the kids are grown and we don't need the three bedroom unit and ocean front view was never important to us in the first place. With points, we can reserve a 1 or 2 bedroom ocean side which now fits our needs better and have left over points to take another vacation, extend our stay at Ocean Pointe or maybe even convert the left over points to lower the MF's, pay for the rental car or buy FF miles to get us to our vacation. 

Or maybe there was a young couple who bought before they had children but now find themselves needing the extra room of a 3 bedroom unit. Ocean Pointe is sold out of three bedroom units but, they can buy enough points to be able to reserve the 3 bedroom unit they want/need without having to buy another complete week somewhere and hope to exchange in. Or they could just save/borrow points to get the larger unit and vacation EOY rather than EY.

So in some way going points will affect your ability to get the exact unit style/location you originally purchased. This is why some of us are a little skeptical unless there is some sort of home resort booking advantage. This idea of a legacy program whereby deeded weeks owners can remain as they are when they want to use what they purchased or, switch to points when they want to exchange is interesting to me. Of course, we have no idea if that's just rumor or fact at this point. Being able to switch hit between systems might give deeded weeks owners the best of both worlds.

In the end, points are all about increasing the number of options and flexability owners have. They are not about guarenteing particluar units, resorts or views in many cases. How you typically use your ownership will determine how much value you can squeeze out of a points based system.


----------



## m61376

dougp26364 said:


> I would like to think that those who only rent a few points won't be viewed in a negative light. Only those that buy units/points resale in mass and who's only purpose is to rent for profit would be affected.



I actually meant the ability to either rent points from another owner or perhaps from Marriott directly to supplement what you have if you need to top off to book perhaps a bigger unit or something a little more costly in points than you have available- similar to what Redweek offers.


----------



## pacheco18

Do we have any FACTS yet or is everything still speculation?


----------



## dougp26364

Dean said:


> Actually some of what is in writing can change that easily and quickly without recourse as well.



This can be true especially with trust based ownerships if it's written into the contract that the trust manager has lattitude to change the rules as they see fit. Remember, the trust manager votes for the trust. Individual owners don't vote.


----------



## pacheco18

Here is what I have learned from these 2000+ posts.

Buy where you want to go (a lesson I learned from TUG) and it won't make a difference what the new program is.

We either go to Ko'Olina or Shadow Ridge and we have the option of trading our two developer units for points if we choose not to go.  Works for me.  I don't think the new program will interfere with this strategy.


----------



## Dean

dougp26364 said:


> This can be true especially with trust based ownerships if it's written into the contract that the trust manager has lattitude to change the rules as they see fit. Remember, the trust manager votes for the trust. Individual owners don't vote.


This is true now with the current system for reservations and a few other issues, it will likely be more true with any trust system.  One big question is whether the points can be change (reallocated).


----------



## dougp26364

pacheco18 said:


> Here is what I have learned from these 2000+ posts.
> 
> Buy where you want to go (a lesson I learned from TUG) and it won't make a difference what the new program is.
> 
> We either go to Ko'Olina or Shadow Ridge and we have the option of trading our two developer units for points if we choose not to go.  Works for me.  I don't think the new program will interfere with this strategy.



I doubt you even notice the change.


----------



## dougp26364

Dean said:


> This is true now with the current system for reservations and a few other issues, it will likely be more true with any trust system.  One big question is whether the points can be change (reallocated).



It depends on how the rules are written. If they put in there that the points will never change and can't be re-allocated, it will be tough for them to change that rule without severe backlash from the owners. If it's like DVC they apparently can change the number of points required for certain days of the week, unit types, views et.... so long as the total number of points never changes. When one goes up, another must come down.


----------



## dougp26364

pacheco18 said:


> Do we have any FACTS yet or is everything still speculation?



Speculation until either Sunday or Monday. I've read both days as the release date for the new program.


----------



## Dean

dougp26364 said:


> It depends on how the rules are written. If they put in there that the points will never change and can't be re-allocated, it will be tough for them to change that rule without severe backlash from the owners. If it's like DVC they apparently can change the number of points required for certain days of the week, unit types, views et.... so long as the total number of points never changes. When one goes up, another must come down.


Exactly, that's one of the issues I want to know the answer to.  It's unlikely that any appropriate method (fixed, possible to reallocate) will change my decision but it's important to the overall planning I will undertake.


----------



## Beverley

Okay, I'll help with the 1000 posts .... 1499 ??:rofl: :hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical: 

If that was some kind of hint ... way too much Marriott..... If it was just a play amount to see where it would go ... very good  

Beverley


----------



## dioxide45

So up until Thursday the deeded weeks system was the best thing ever and everyone should have been buying to get the best of both worlds. Tomorrow or Monday the old weeks system will be the worst thing ever with every sales guy touting how the points system is best. You can always toss the resale option out there and hear the spew about how that is bad, then throw back at them that just last week you were selling those weeks as the best thing ever and the best of both worlds. They will probably retort with some lie about resales being excluded or something.


----------



## Beverley

Fletch,

I hope you will post as soon as the announcement is out with your spiel on it and advice  .....  

Beverley


----------



## NJDave

Fletch said:


> done and done



We know that it wouldn't be appropriate to post the details here prior to the official release. 

However, with what you know today, do you think that Tuggers are going to like the new program?


----------



## dioxide45

Fletch said:


> I have bits and pieces but thats it.



People, by his own admission Fletch doesn't know much. He is in the same boat as the rest of us though he doesn't even own a Marriott. Though he knows slightly more based on information he obtained from others he used to work with.


----------



## dioxide45

dougp26364 said:


> Remember, the trust manager votes for the trust. Individual owners don't vote.



But it can be written in to the documents that the trust manager must vote based on proxies voted by the owners in that trust. Not sure how that would work with a trust owning many different resorts.

My thought is that the trust will have a board of trustees and owners in the trust will vote for people on that board. The board will then vote on who they want to be on the individual resort boards. This can turn out to be very bad for deeded owners as once the trust gets enough control, they could vote in people to the individual boards who then put up a vote to dissolve the resorts or deeded ownerships. That vote is then put to the owners, and now that the trust has majority ownership, out go the deeded owners and the developer has strong armed their way back in.


----------



## suenmike32

As dopey as I may sound....I hope whatever statement that is released by Marriott has a clear definition of what a  "legacy week" and a "point's week" is.
My current 4 Marriott's are all  "resale deeded" units.
Marriott sales personnel may not like "re-sale buyers", but in reality at some point even the most die-hard "developer purchaser" may very well seek to sell their units. Perhaps they have no heirs, their kids can't afford the MF or any # of reasons. Unfortunately, sales-personnel only focus on the "points perks" when trying to sell. 
But realistically, sooner or later...just like death and taxes, many owners will ultimately have to sell (or donate) their units. 
Marriott can't buy them all back, (although virtually every salesperson that I've spoken to in a sales presentation will say that they will...they just don't say that it make take years.
Tomorrow or Monday is going to be very interesting.


----------



## abdibile

I would bet that the number will not have a 9 as a last digit.

That is not the Marriott way.


----------



## Frisbeeace

pacheco18 said:


> Buy where you want to go (a lesson I learned from TUG) and it won't make a difference what the new program is.
> 
> We either go to Ko'Olina or Shadow Ridge and we have the option of trading our two developer units for points if we choose not to go.  Works for me.  I don't think the new program will interfere with this strategy.



A valid statement among tons of speculations. Most of the other posts have too many "ifs" and "whethers"...


----------



## dioxide45

abdibile said:


> I would bet that the number will not have a 9 as a last digit.
> 
> That is not the Marriott way.



There is a fairly consistent pattern of 9s here.



> Occupancy Option Current Fee in U.S. Dollars
> Daily Use 29.00*
> Lock-Off Use 75.00
> Reservation Change 29.00
> Split Use 75.00
> Split Daily Use Fee 75.00**
> Trade For Marriott Rewards Points U.S., CAN, U.S.V.I. 109.00
> Trade For Marriott Rewards Points International 129.00



I thought that the trade for points option was only $104, when did that go up by $5?


----------



## laurac260

can someone wake me when we have REAL news?? :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:


----------



## taffy19

dougp26364 said:


> Speculation until either Sunday or Monday. I've read both days as the release date for the new program.



I heard that the sales people can discuss the new system on Sunday but the email will be sent on Monday. I don't know when they start doing tours.


----------



## dioxide45

iconnections said:


> I heard that the sales people can discuss the new system on Sunday but the email will be sent on Monday. I don't know when they start doing tours.



Wonder when the new website becomes active?


----------



## davidvel

dioxide45 said:


> So up until Thursday the deeded weeks system was the best thing ever and everyone should have been buying to get the best of both worlds. Tomorrow or Monday the old weeks system will be the worst thing ever with every sales guy touting how the points system is best. You can always toss the resale option out there and hear the spew about how that is bad, then throw back at them that just last week you were selling those weeks as the best thing ever and the best of both worlds. They will probably retort with some lie about resales being excluded or something.



Don't forget anyone can buy a resale deed and be governed by the old rules if they choose.


----------



## dioxide45

davidvel said:


> Don't forget anyone can buy a resale deed and be governed by the old rules if they choose.



Very true, but those old rules don't have to include allowing them the ability to opt in and out of points as has been suggested current legacy owners will be able to do.


----------



## davidvel

In California at least all TS developers have to prepare, submit and distribute (upon request of prospective purchasers) a Public Report ("White Paper.") This document summarizes all of the rights obligations, reservation procedures etc. set forth in the timeshare. I will try to get a copy for Shadow Ridge.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> Very true, but those old rules don't have to include allowing them the ability to opt in and out of points as has been suggested current legacy owners will be able to do.



I would think that Marriott will allow future resale owners to opt into the points program?

Why wouldn't they?  The future owner might pay the $595 up-front and commit to the $169 annual fee?  That's the annuity that Marriott really wants, and they won't be interested in protecting their deeds pricing.

And I think they'll start ROFRing the best Platinums (especially the ones with the Deeded weeks that are high TDI) 

I think the date of the Deed for floating properties will become important (or at least a factor).

I continue to think there will be two pools of inventory -- legacy deeded weeks and the deeded weeks held by Marriott (even if just for one year due to a legacy point converter).  This will prevent the criticism of Marriott that they are gaming the reservation system and create clearly defined inventories of both.

We will see!

all the best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

Oh, I think Marriott will allow future resale owners to opt in/out each year also if they pay the upfront fee. I just don't think that is what sales people will tell prospective buyers if they bring up the word "resale".

There are a lot of things Marriott allows resale buyers to do that the sales staff says they don't.


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> But it can be written in to the documents that the trust manager must vote based on proxies voted by the owners in that trust. Not sure how that would work with a trust owning many different resorts.
> 
> My thought is that the trust will have a board of trustees and owners in the trust will vote for people on that board. The board will then vote on who they want to be on the individual resort boards. This can turn out to be very bad for deeded owners as once the trust gets enough control, they could vote in people to the individual boards who then put up a vote to dissolve the resorts or deeded ownerships. That vote is then put to the owners, and now that the trust has majority ownership, out go the deeded owners and the developer has strong armed their way back in.



Do you think Marriott will give up that much control by allowing trust members to vote? It would be a good thing for owners if they do. If they're like other trusts I'm aware of, that won't be the case. The trust manager will make all decisions as to what's good or bad for the trust.

Dang, I'm starting to sound like Perry with all this negative talk.


----------



## dougp26364

dioxide45 said:


> Oh, I think Marriott will allow future resale owners to opt in/out each year also if they pay the upfront fee. I just don't think that is what sales people will tell prospective buyers if they bring up the word "resale".
> 
> There are a lot of things Marriott allows resale buyers to do that the sales staff says they don't.



They could also require that resale buyers purchase at least a few points at developer pricing to convert a resale deed into the points program. I don't see Marriott locking out the potential income resale buyers might now have to bring to the table. Instead I see Marriott giving resale buyers a pathway into full Marriott ownership rights.........for a price.


----------



## JimIg23

did the system start today or does it start Monday?


----------



## dioxide45

JimIg23 said:


> did the system start today or does it start Monday?



Rumored to be Sunday or Monday. Not today.


----------



## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> So up until Thursday the deeded weeks system was the best thing ever and everyone should have been buying to get the best of both worlds. Tomorrow or Monday the old weeks system will be the worst thing ever with every sales guy touting how the points system is best. You can always toss the resale option out there and hear the spew about how that is bad, then throw back at them that just last week you were selling those weeks as the best thing ever and the best of both worlds. They will probably retort with some lie about resales being excluded or something.


Depends on who you ask.  Personally I've said many times I would prefer Marriott with a good points system, lets see if they come out with a good one.



dougp26364 said:


> This can be true especially with trust based ownerships if it's written into the contract that the trust manager has lattitude to change the rules as they see fit. Remember, the trust manager votes for the trust. Individual owners don't vote.


I wanted to revisit this post as I failed to make a very important point.  The voting rep for the units has a legal fiduciary responsibility to the owners and if they violate that responsibility they are at risk.  

It appears to start tomorrow.  HH was scheduling tours effective tomorrow.


----------



## m61376

So who is going to be the first Tugger taking the first tour of the morning to get concrete information?


----------



## Darlene

I was on the phone with II. They were trying to get me to deposit my 2011 Marriott week. I said no. I'm waiting to hear more about Marriott's new program. She began spouting out numbers, program fees, conversions fees, she seemed to know quite a bit about what II's role would be. She said you can convert to Marriotts new program for about $7,000, then you can take your points and deposit them with us for exchanges.  But then she said it would be best for me to call them, and gave me the number to call for owner services. When I got someone from Marriott owner services on the line, she said I can't tell you anything about that, and I can't tell you when I can tell you about. She said I'm surprised you know anything about it at all.  She said as we hung up, just make sure to turn your tv on Monday. 
Darlene


----------



## Slakk

Darlene said:


> I was on the phone with II. They were trying to get me to deposit my 2011 Marriott week. I said no. I'm waiting to hear more about Marriott's new program. She began spouting out numbers, program fees, conversions fees, she seemed to know quite a bit about what II's role would be. She said you can convert to Marriotts new program for about $7,000, then you can take your points and deposit them with us for exchanges.  But then she said it would be best for me to call them, and gave me the number to call for owner services. When I got someone from Marriott owner services on the line, she said I can't tell you anything about that, and I can't tell you when I can tell you about. She said I'm surprised you know anything about it at all.  She said as we hung up, just make sure to turn your tv on Monday.
> Darlene



Hmmm I have been lurking and following this.  I actually own at DVC and like the points system just am tired of vacationing at WDW (the reason we have 2 EOY with Marriott).  If the price is $7000 then I know I will definitely pass - heck I think that is more than my EOY St Kitts cost me to buy LOL.

We will be in St Kitts in a few weeks and plan to take the tour, I really cannot imagine a price tag at 7K would entice anyone but I guess I will just sit back and see when the details come out.


----------



## NJDave

Since we are speculating here's what I think would make sense using numbers we have heard.

Introductory price - $595 one timeshare; $695 multiple units

After introduction (two months) - $1,495 

Smallest point product for sale - $7,000 (I think it would actually be higher though) - allows you to convert existing resale to points as well.


----------



## dougp26364

NJDave said:


> Since we are speculating here's what I think would make sense using numbers we have heard.
> 
> Introductory price - $595 one timeshare; $695 multiple units
> 
> After introduction (two months) - $1,495
> 
> Smallest point product for sale - $7,000 (I think it would actually be higher though) - allows you to convert existing resale to points as well.



I'm thinking $595 one timeshare, $695 multiple timeshares, $1,495 resale purchased timeshares. But, according to Fletch, $1,495 might be the price for everyone. We can find out for real tomorrow.


----------



## wsrobinson

They are rolling it out tomorrow.


----------



## RandR

pacheco18 said:


> Here is what I have learned from these 2000+ posts.
> 
> Buy where you want to go (a lesson I learned from TUG) and it won't make a difference what the new program is.
> 
> We either go to Ko'Olina or Shadow Ridge and we have the option of trading our two developer units for points if we choose not to go.  Works for me.  I don't think the new program will interfere with this strategy.



I have said this several times, but I do not agree with this statement.  IF Marriott lets points owners try and reserve at the same time as legacy owners and they don't "separate" inventory on a week by week basis, legacy owners will have a higher likelihood of getting shut out of the best weeks.  This is because anyone with enough points would now be trying for the weeks instead of just owners of that specific resort in that specific season.


----------



## dougp26364

RandR said:


> I have said this several times, but I do not agree with this statement.  IF Marriott lets points owners try and reserve at the same time as legacy owners and they don't "separate" inventory on a week by week basis, legacy owners will have a higher likelihood of getting shut out of the best weeks.  This is because anyone with enough points would now be trying for the weeks instead of just owners of that specific resort in that specific season.



Despite Perry's unwillingness to see the necessity of seperating inventory, Marriott will seperate inventory. They have no choice. They can not allow points members to reserve every week in a season and not leave any inventory for those that own those deeded weeks. Marriott can only allow points members to reserve what has been deposited into the points account for each resort. Therefore, there WILL be seperate inventory's. This is one thing I am certain of without seeing anything official.


----------



## Dean

dougp26364 said:


> Despite Perry's unwillingness to see the necessity of seperating inventory, Marriott will seperate inventory. They have no choice. They can not allow points members to reserve every week in a season and not leave any inventory for those that own those deeded weeks. Marriott can only allow points members to reserve what has been deposited into the points account for each resort. Therefore, there WILL be seperate inventory's. This is one thing I am certain of without seeing anything official.


Agree, 100% chance they will have separate inventory.  However, there are at least 2 ways they could approach it, either by the week on a given deed or by a straight % adjusted for the odd weeks if need be.  It will be interesting to see how they handle this going forward, esp when a legacy week that is converted goes up for resale.


----------



## m61376

I think a big issue as to whether those using their home resort most of the time will be better off or not is home resort priority. Whether, as suggested, week owners and legacy week owners converted to the new system both enjoy a home resort advantage and get to book before points owners, or whether legacy week owners in the new system get to compete at the same time with owners of every other resort, even when booking their home resort, will make a big difference. If the former, then even those who usually use their own resort might be better off as time goes on, but the choice will be different, at least for me, if the latter.

Of course, cost - both up front and on-going, as well as the impact (if any) on MF's have to go into the equation. IF Doug's guess is right on the fees, then a big factor for resale purchasers at least is whether that $1499 figure is for each or for all. I can see a $900 "penalty" or surcharge and would agree that it isn't too onerous if it evened out the playing field (unless we see other resale versus direct differences), but not if it is per unit, where the other charges are only $100 more for 2 or more units versus a single unit.

There are several other questions I need to see the answers to, including what happens with partial use and, of course, how are the properties being valuated?

I wonder if legacy week owners who opt to convert can still reserve a specific week to put into II, since supposedly they can choose weeks or points in a given year? Will that be restricted to personal use, use and/or rental, or use and/or rental and/or trade if so desired? If the point requirements for trading in II are akin to those of the Asia Pacific program, then exchanging in II for a high demand week required the point equivalent of premium Plat. Plus weeks, and even a converted owner exchanging for a non-Marirott in II might be better off with a strong week deposit- although that might not be an option.

The more I think about it, the more questions seem to crop up. I hope Sue is adding to "the list."


----------



## bogey21

dougp26364 said:


> it will be tough for them to change that rule without severe backlash from the owners.



Trust me. If Marriott sees that it is in their best interest to change something, they will find a way.  Just look what they did to their original Rental and Sales Programs.  Sure they weren't in black and white, but they sold the heck out of them during Sales Presentations.  They promised; I listened; I bought; they changed the programs; I realized they were snakes so I sold my 5 Marriott Weeks.  Am I glad?  You bet.  I got over $100,000 when I sold those Weeks.  Today I'd be lucky to get half that!!

George


----------



## pwrshift

m61376 said:


> But, Brian, how many times have you looked at this and the speculation thread? More importantly will be your participation in tomorrow's thread- many of us will be relying on your (amongst others with similar long term knowledge of the system) analysis.
> 
> Hope you, Dave, Fletch, etc. (the list goes on...) have cleared your calendars for the week :rofl:


 
I'm betting there'll be no announcement at all on Sunday.  

Brian


----------



## Darlene

Monday is mu bet.


----------



## taffy19

Someone said to watch TV on Monday!


----------



## pharmgirl

Marriott has enough of our money and we won't give them any more - just maint fees that are due

 We will just keep our 2 Hawaian weeks and use them, occasionally rent or trade


----------



## caterina25

What is a legacy week owner ?


----------



## dioxide45

iconnections said:


> Someone said to watch TV on Monday!



This just doesn't seem national news worthy. Perhaps a CNBC thing, just not a Today Show  thing.


----------



## dioxide45

paulaf52 said:


> What is a legacy week owner ?



All of us.


----------



## urple2

> She said you can convert to Marriotts new program for about $7,000,



At 7K it will be an easy decision to make...


----------



## RandR

dougp26364 said:


> Despite Perry's unwillingness to see the necessity of seperating inventory, Marriott will seperate inventory. They have no choice. They can not allow points members to reserve every week in a season and not leave any inventory for those that own those deeded weeks. Marriott can only allow points members to reserve what has been deposited into the points account for each resort. Therefore, there WILL be seperate inventory's. This is one thing I am certain of without seeing anything official.



I am not saying that they would give all the weeks to thepoints program and leave nothing for the legacy people.  Here is an example of what I mean and I will borrow a concept that Perry used.  

Each owner is given a notation of either legacy (L) or points (P).  When all the units are totaled it turns out that there is an equal number of points owners and legacy owners so legacy owners and points owners are both entitled to an equal number of units when the season opens up for reservations.  The reservation system will continue to take L and P reservations until the limit for each is reached.  IOW, once 50% of the units are taken by P owners, only L owners can reserve.  So each group gets exactly what they entitled to, 50% of the units.  The problem for the legacy owners is that before this new points system, the only people they had to compete against for the best weeks were people from their resort in their season.  Now they are competing against everyone who has enough points.  That is a LOT more people.  So the legacy owner are still quaranteed a week but they may have more trouble getting a hot week.  This is very important for people with kids or who want a beach summer week or ski winter week.

Doug, does this make sense?  Hopefully I am explaining it properly.


----------



## floyddl

I would think they would implement a reservation system like Hilton.  Owners can reserve their home resort in their owned season starting at 12 months and then starting at 9 months anyone can book any resort.  That way existing owners in their season are not shut out by owners from other resorts.


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening...

Hopefully MVCI (MVD club or whatever they morph into) will also leave 50% of the "hot" weeks open for both the "L" and "P" contestants.  If they just leave 50% off ALL in season weeks  to the "L" and "P" players, there could be some real issues, especially if the "P" players have as what Perry would describe as a "quicker mouse" at 8:00:00001 CST....

we shall see tomorrow...

Floyd's plan only works if NEW points players get to purchase home resort priority.  The informed "guessing" here states the new game will be "points " without home resort priority.


----------



## Steel5Rings

I am looking forward to the class action suit!

I know that many of you thought I was nuts when I questioned Marriott's reputation and motives after the games they played out at Streamside.....here's guessing that fewer of you will be blindly drinking the Marriott Kool Aid once the points scam is official!


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## californiagirl

We are currently at Westin Kierland Villas.  (Purchased an II getaway.)  I called Canyon Villas and made an appointment to speak with a sales person Monday at 2:30.  I was very upfront...currently own 3 weeks and want to get detailed info on the new points system.  She was very eager to sign me up!  I told her my husband would not be with me and I did not need to tour the property and understood I would not qualify for the promo gift.  She was still very happy to set an appointment.  I will post after I get the info in hand.  I like having paperwork infront of me to read and reread.:zzz: LOL.


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## tlwmkw

We're at Surfwatch now. Sales office was closed Thurs/Fri/Sat (they were still training today). At 5 pm a large delivery of helium balloons arrived with the Marriott logo and sayings on them like "A new day", "A new program", and some others. The front desk staff claim they don't know anything and since the sales folk are training off-site there is no one to ask. The front desk people do say that it all starts tomorrow. We are going to sign up for a tour to try to get details. If we get any info I'll post it. Why are they being so mysterious? It's very odd.

Tlwmkw- on an iPod so excuse errors.


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## Dean

RandR said:


> I am not saying that they would give all the weeks to thepoints program and leave nothing for the legacy people.  Here is an example of what I mean and I will borrow a concept that Perry used.
> 
> Each owner is given a notation of either legacy (L) or points (P).  When all the units are totaled it turns out that there is an equal number of points owners and legacy owners so legacy owners and points owners are both entitled to an equal number of units when the season opens up for reservations.  The reservation system will continue to take L and P reservations until the limit for each is reached.  IOW, once 50% of the units are taken by P owners, only L owners can reserve.  So each group gets exactly what they entitled to, 50% of the units.  The problem for the legacy owners is that before this new points system, the only people they had to compete against for the best weeks were people from their resort in their season.  Now they are competing against everyone who has enough points.  That is a LOT more people.  So the legacy owner are still quaranteed a week but they may have more trouble getting a hot week.  This is very important for people with kids or who want a beach summer week or ski winter week.
> 
> Doug, does this make sense?  Hopefully I am explaining it properly.


Zero chance this will happen if I understand you correctly.  If you're saying they'll compete against each other for the same weeks until the numbers for each group are reached this has NO chance of being the method used.


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## siberiavol

*Amazed at lack of leaks*

It is hard to believed Marriott has been able to keep their salesmen quite about this program during the three days of training. You are talking about hundreds of people.

It appears it will be a pretty big shock to most owners.  I haven't even seen one thread on Flyer Talk who have a lot of posters who know a lot about things going on at Marriott.

Either the salesmen can't understand it or there were jobs on the line if something came out early. You would think someone would have called a good client to give a heads up even at the risk of some information getting out. That is usually the case in these type of things.


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## DeniseM

> Amazed at lack of leaks



Apparently you and I are not reading the same threads...


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## Ann in CA

siberiavol said:


> It is hard to believed Marriott has been able to keep their salesmen quite about this program during the three days of training. You are talking about hundreds of people.
> 
> It appears it will be a pretty big shock to most owners.  I haven't even seen one thread on Flyer Talk who have a lot of posters who know a lot about things going on at Marriott.
> 
> Either the salesmen can't understand it or there were jobs on the line if something came out early. You would think someone would have called a good client to give a heads up even at the risk of some information getting out. That is usually the case in these type of things.



In May at Shadow Ridge, and last week at Canyon Villas we were told they could not say anything if they wanted to keep their jobs.  They did know about it they just could not say anything, although by not answering some of our very specific questions we learned some possiblilities.


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## l2trade

Plenty of leaks...

First - I saw changes might be coming with the couple of internet surveys Marriott asked me to participate in a long time back.  These surveys were filled with questions that describe the kind of point system features which we now know is coming soon (starting tomorrow).  I don't surf the Marriott Boards often enough to know, but I highly doubt I was the only Tugger invited to participate in these surveys.  The surveys were enough to start plenty of rumors or speculation in my mind...

Second - Over six months ago, the head of sales at one of the Marriott resorts gave an owner presentation after the welcome breakfast.  He went over the usual Q&A and stuff.  Then, he told all of us that Marriott was going to be rolling out some major changes in June 2010 that owners would really like.  I spoke to him afterwards.  He was adamant the change would be a major 'enhancement' to ownership, excited to play 20 questions on it, yet elusive on specifics.  While no specifics, it seemed clear he was talking about some kind of point system which included nightly rentals, etc...

Third - See my post which summarizes leaks obtained from sales reps over the past two weeks: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=927325&postcount=2384 

No leaks??!!!  LMAO!  I have heard it straight from sales staff!  Thank goodness, we will all hear it officially soon!


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## PerryM

dougp26364 said:


> Despite Perry's unwillingness to see the necessity of seperating inventory, Marriott will seperate inventory. They have no choice. They can not allow points members to reserve every week in a season and not leave any inventory for those that own those deeded weeks. Marriott can only allow points members to reserve what has been deposited into the points account for each resort. Therefore, there WILL be seperate inventory's. This is one thing I am certain of without seeing anything official.



You'll be happy to learn that I do agree with the need for separate inventories - this was a hundred or so posts ago.

I just believe they will do it with a byte in a computer record that describes the deed and that there is no need to put those records into separate computer systems; that's what I've been saying and that is exactly what you guys, I believe, are saying.

So I've clarified my position - each deed needs to be flagged as to its status:

Legacy deed
Legacy deed turned over for 1 year Points
Points assigned system

We are talking about the same thing - the deeds can't be commingled and allowed to be reserved from another classification.

P.S.
This means that new Marriott resorts assigned to Points from day 1 can't be gotten to by either of the other classifications.


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## RandR

Dean said:


> Zero chance this will happen if I understand you correctly.  If you're saying they'll compete against each other for the same weeks until the numbers for each group are reached this has NO chance of being the method used.



Why?  While I am hoping that the number of units for each week is divided proportionately, there is nothing that says they have to.

Here in NY it is Sunday so I guess we will know more info today.  Can't wait for the new thread to start although it will probably be impossible to keep up with it at first.


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## aruba72

*They have done it!!!!!!*

They have done it!!!!!! Everyone got to My-Vacationclub website and log in or https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/pointsintro/index.html


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## urple2

aruba72 said:


> They have done it!!!!!! Everyone got to My-Vacationclub website and log in or https://www.my-vacationclub.com/en-us/owners/pointsintro/index.html



Nice work!  Should make for some interesting reading and another new thread...


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## davidvel

As many have guessed, its just an exchange program. I always thought this was necessary as they had all the exsisting deeded interests that could not be changed. (I just started reading the info.)

MODS: new thread now?


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## urple2

"Weeks purchased externally before June 20, 2010 may be enrolled for $1,495 for the first week or $1,995 for one and a half or more weeks. Weeks purchased externally, with a deed recording date after June 20, 2010 are not eligible for the program."

I see they don't have the points equivalent to resort working yet...

And that price... Geeze...


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## l2trade

Proof is here - Time to kill this thread, eh?


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## Steve

In order to keep things in one place and cut down on the numerous duplicate posts on this topic, Fletch's thread has been merged into this one.

Going forward, please post factual details about the new program in the new "Marriott Destination Points...They have done it" thread.  

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124194

Thanks!  

Steve
TUG Moderator


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## taffy19

davidvel said:


> As many have guessed, its just an exchange program. I always thought this was necessary as they had all the exsisting deeded interests that could not be changed. (I just started reading the info.)
> 
> MODS: new thread now?


Is it going to be a Trust without deeds for the new resorts in the future?  If not, what is all the fuss about?  I am completely lost.


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## GaryDouglas

urple2 said:


> "Weeks purchased externally before June 20, 2010 may be enrolled for $1,495 for the first week or $1,995 for one and a half or more weeks. Weeks purchased externally, with a deed recording date after June 20, 2010 are not eligible for the program."
> 
> I see they don't have the points equivalent to resort working yet...
> 
> And that price... Geeze...


 
It partially works for a nanosecond, and this is what is displayed...


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## DeniseM

For the sake of continuity, now that the actual program has been revealed, please discuss it here - http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124194

THANKS!


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## abdibile

Don't we have to keep this thread a little active? 

ALthough it has alread more posts it needs about 20,000 more views to break the "Aruba thread" record.


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## Dave M

Since this thread is about speculation regarding the new system - before the announcement of the new system, it is no longer pertinent. 

Thus, I am closing it. Posts related to the new system should be posted elsewhere.


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