# Fee for borrowing points?



## dougp26364 (Jan 15, 2017)

This may have been noted somewhere else but, when I went to book a reservation for a non-home resort week, there was a listing for 2 separate fee's. $59 for the non-home resort week (up from $55 last year) and, a line item for borrowed points which read $0. Even though we did borrow points from 2018 for this reservation, we were not charged a fee to borrow points for this reservation.

I'm wondering if this is a future fee HGVC will be introducing or if it's a new fee HGVC is using to stick it to the resale purchasers?


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## presley (Jan 15, 2017)

Geez. It looks/sounds like it is a fee they will eventually add.


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## SmithOp (Jan 15, 2017)

That is a new line item on the reservation details, I just looked at a reservation I made last year and it only shows the $55 res fee.

If it is a new fee they will be adding, I think it will be for all owners.  HGVC doesn't stick it to resale owners like some of the other systems like Wastegate.  The only higher resale fee I can think of is the one time enrollment fee.  Resale restrictions are mostly sales BS for HGVC.


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## alwysonvac (Jan 15, 2017)

dougp26364 said:


> I'm wondering if this is a future fee HGVC will be introducing or if it's a new fee HGVC is using to stick it to the resale purchasers?



Ugh, let's hope not.


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## Talent312 (Jan 15, 2017)

dougp26364 said:


> I'm wondering if this is a future fee HGVC will be introducing or if it's a new fee HGVC is using to stick it to the resale purchasers?



They've never made such a distinction in use transactions before. It's unlikely they'd start with a such a small item. If they were treat resales differently, it'd likely involve limiting a club-wide benefit, like they did with elite status, and they only applied that to new sales, not existing members.

.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 15, 2017)

SmithOp said:


> That is a new line item on the reservation details, I just looked at a reservation I made last year and it only shows the $55 res fee.
> 
> If it is a new fee they will be adding, I think it will be for all owners.  HGVC doesn't stick it to resale owners like some of the other systems like Wastegate.  The only higher resale fee I can think of is the one time enrollment fee.  Resale restrictions are mostly sales BS for HGVC.
> 
> ...



They don't stick it to resale buyers......yet. Some of the junk I've read about what sales staff has told those who have bought resale, like higher MF's because they bought resale, makes me wonder if sales if having an effect at corporate to make changes that would make owning resale a little less attractive.

How many changes they can reasonably make I don't know. Would it be in their best interest? Maybe from a sales and marketing standpoint if sales are flat. Might give them leverage to "Hiltonize" the resale points like DRI would do with their resale buyers. Sort of a "Buy enough developer priced points and we'll convert the status of your resale weeks to "full" Hilton privileges" type scam.

It could be nothing. But I've often wondered how long HGVC would continue to treat resale owners as equals when all others don't.

Or, maybe they're just looking for more revenue from the entire owner base, which is just as likely IMHO.


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## arnief (Jan 15, 2017)

Increasing fee's one would think they would stay away from but if you notice the Las Vegas hotels, first they started with resort fees, didn't affect sales (?), now they are charging for parking, Valet and self parking and that won't affect sales (?)..


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## dougp26364 (Jan 16, 2017)

HGVC has a captive audience. What choice do members have other than stay where they own, exchange with RCI or attempt to sell their weeks? The only thing they really have to worry about is a high default rate and these little dink and dunk charges aren't likely to cause that to budge.


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## Jason245 (Jan 16, 2017)

This is why I believe that you should treat your "buy in" cost as a sunk cost with zero expectation of recovery. Once they start nickle and diming you, resale value only goes down and down.  If you arn't recovering your buy in within 2-3 years, you are at risk of big changes like this making your Resale purchase worth less and less.. but don't worry, Elite Owners will avoid these fees. 

They are a public company now, looking for every extra dollar they can, so I expect them to try more things like this.  Open season is now not worth it, and with this change, I can only imagine that borrowing will become an unpleasant experience as well.  Pretty soon, we will be getting housekeeping credits.... 

Every year I do a Rent Vs Own analysis on what I use my points on. As soon as that dynamic flips to it being less expensive to Rent, Bye Bye HGVC.


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## SmithOp (Jan 16, 2017)

Jason245 said:


> This is why I believe that you should treat your "buy in" cost as a sunk cost with zero expectation of recovery. Once they start nickle and diming you, resale value only goes down and down.  If you arn't recovering your buy in within 2-3 years, you are at risk of big changes like this making your Resale purchase worth less and less.. but don't worry, Elite Owners will avoid these fees.
> 
> They are a public company now, looking for every extra dollar they can, so I expect them to try more things like this.  Open season is now not worth it, and with this change, I can only imagine that borrowing will become an unpleasant experience as well.  Pretty soon, we will be getting housekeeping credits....
> 
> Every year I do a Rent Vs Own analysis on what I use my points on. As soon as that dynamic flips to it being less expensive to Rent, Bye Bye HGVC.



Adding to your list - continued devaluation of HHonors points, there was another bump this year, the Hampton I used to stay for 20k went to 30k, now 40k.  The points and cash deal at Doubletree is the only bargain left.

Overcrowding at existing resorts, another new building on the drawing board for HHV, I listed my Lagoon Tower, it will never be worth more than it is today, time to cut the cord.


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## Sandy VDH (Jan 16, 2017)

Borrowing has always been free.  But systematically, it may make sense to make a new system that is flexible.  Why they have to display that  if they don't collect the fee is an other matter, as they could suppress that line, and still have the code in there.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 16, 2017)

Sandy VDH said:


> ............. Why they have to display that  if they don't collect the fee is an other matter, as they could suppress that line, and still have the code in there.



Maybe they just wanted to see how fast the information was posted on TUG.


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## dsmrp (Jan 16, 2017)

Sandy VDH said:


> Borrowing has always been free.  But systematically, it may make sense to make a new system that is flexible.  Why they have to display that  if they don't collect the fee is an other matter, as they could suppress that line, and still have the code in there.



Maybe they just forgot to suppress/comment out the code sections related to the borrow points fee, before it got released to the production website. It could be a simple on/off toggle in a site configuration file which didn't get set back after testing.  I can see them testing various new items in the code with each new rule planned for roll-out at different times.

I think they will start charging for point borrowing too, as a another source of revenue, now that HGVC has split off from the mother company. I think resales may be treated a little differently, "less equal" to direct sales, in the future too.

Vistana doesn't charge for borrowing from future years, but the MF have to be paid in advance. Vistana also doesn't make it as easy and seamless as HGVC does now to make online reservations with borrowed points.


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## Cyberc (Jan 17, 2017)

Fun fact, if they did charge to borrow I would either take less vacations with Hilton or consider buying another resale to cover my yearly needs. 

The amount of points I have now is just doable so I borrow when needed. One year I would need to take 1-2 vacations less than usual.

Another thing I admit I haven't read all the rules, but can Hilton charge to borrow points unless everyone pays to do so? - I mean this is a brand new fee only imposed on some current members and not others or would they need to grandfather old members in and only charge the fee from new hgvc resale owners?

Regards


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## Talent312 (Jan 17, 2017)

Cyberc said:


> Another thing I admit I haven't read all the rules, but can Hilton charge to borrow points unless everyone pays to do so? - I mean this is a brand new fee only imposed on some current members and not others or would they need to grandfather old members in and only charge the fee from new hgvc resale owners?



I 'spose that a new fee could be applied only to new owners, but I doubt they'd need (or want) to make that distinction, as fees equally applicable to everyone are clearly contemplated, if not explicitly allowed, under the rules -- as is termination of the club.

However, for the program benefits themselves, I think that existing owners would have a colorable argument that the program rights as it existed at the time of purchase was an "appurtenance" to the property which cannot be given to retail-buyers and denied resale-buyers based on method of acquisition, when no such distinction previously existed.  <just my 2 cents>

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## 1Kflyerguy (Jan 17, 2017)

I would consider that a negative move for the program.  It seems like the ability to borrow points is a positive, and in number of the updates the salespeople have commented when i have borrowed my future points..  "Wow, Mr 1Kflyer, it looks like you have used all your points already, you need to buy some more..."  I would think at least some people fall for that approach..


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## Helios (Jan 17, 2017)

Personally, I have never borrowed points with HGVC or any other system where I own (MVC and SVN).  I actually don't like the borrowing and banking (i.e., saving or whatever else people calls it).  I think they create inventory problems for owners who want to reserve during the current season.  This could allow owners to reserve more than what they actually own.  I know it has benefits for some.  I just don't use them and think I always come on the bad end of the deal.

This has not been a problem with HGVC but I am pretty sure it has affected my SVN reservations.


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## alwysonvac (Jan 17, 2017)

Helios said:


> Personally, I have never borrowed points with HGVC or any other system where I own (MVC and SVN).  I actually don't like the borrowing and banking (i.e., saving or whatever else people calls it).  I think they create inventory problems for owners who want to reserve during the current season.  This could allow owners to reserve more than what they actually own.  I know it has benefits for some.  I just don't use them and think I always come on the bad end of the deal.
> 
> This has not been a problem with HGVC but I am pretty sure it has affected my SVN reservations.



For both HGVC and SVN, banked and borrowed points only come into play when reservations have been opened up to all members (for HGVC that's 9 months before check-in and for SVN that's 8 months before check-in).

Home resort owners in both systems can only book what they own in that particular year during their exclusive booking window.


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## Helios (Jan 17, 2017)

Right.  I believe for both systems owners of the current year should have an edge over borrowers and bankers.  

SVN opens reservations at midnight EST 8 months from check in.  Borrowers have to wait until 9 AM EST to make reservations via phone.  Bankers should wait too.  That would make me happy...


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## jehb2 (Jan 17, 2017)

I have borrowed or banked points every year for 18 years.  I don't think I have ever made a home week reservation because I can never meet the home week requirements.  I usually stay for more than 7 nights.  I almost never check in on the require check in days because flights are usually cheaper on weekdays.  I usually get a unit different from what I own because we take a varying number of family & friends.  I often stay in my home resort via an RCI reservation because I can stretch my points & it's a better deal even with the RCI reservation fee.  For me, this type of flexibility is one of the best features of HGVC.


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## alwysonvac (Jan 18, 2017)

Helios said:


> Right.  I believe for both systems owners of the current year should have an edge over borrowers and bankers.
> 
> SVN opens reservations at midnight EST 8 months from check in.  Borrowers have to wait until 9 AM EST to make reservations via phone.  Bankers should wait too.  That would make me happy...



It sounds like you want an exclusive booking window to use StarOptions or HGVC points to check-in any day of the week, in any size unit and for any number of days at your home resort before availability is opened up to all members. It's been discussed before.

But I'm just not sure why you only want to exclude members who banked/borrowed. They are only going to impact you in the specific years they use this option. I would be more worried about the non-home resort owner that has 3+ annual weeks and are competing with you at your high demand resorts as soon as the booking window opens. You're competing with those folks annually. 

I'm another one who uses banking and borrowing in HGVC, Starwood, Disney and WorldMark. It provides me the most flexibility.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 18, 2017)

jehb2 said:


> I have borrowed or banked points every year for 18 years.  I don't think I have ever made a home week reservation because I can never meet the home week requirements.  I usually stay for more than 7 nights.  I almost never check in on the require check in days because flights are usually cheaper on weekdays.  I usually get a unit different from what I own because we take a varying number of family & friends.  I often stay in my home resort via an RCI reservation because I can stretch my points & it's a better deal even with the RCI reservation fee.  For me, this type of flexibility is one of the best features of HGVC.



We've done pretty much the same thing every year. Our original contract was an EOY 2 bedroom unit at the Las Vegas Karen Ave location. Other than the original sales presentation we've never set foot in that location. We upgraded to an EY contract at the Las Vegas strip location and have stayed there only once as a home week reservation. Otherwise we've borrowed, banked and booked anything but our home week. EOY we've gone to Hawaii with either our HGVC or MVC ownership, depending on what island we wanted to be on. Typically we'll book a 4 night stay at Elera in a Grand Plus unit over our anniversary.

The extra fee, if one ever appears, would definitely put a damper on our HGVC experience. However I can see a need for an ala carte fee such as this vs increasing MF's of club fee's for everyone in the system. I'm pretty sure the banking/borrowing ads cost to the reservation system and, as an owner, I like to keep my MF's as low as possible while maintaining the high quality product HGVC offers us. Thus, charge those who use it vs charging everyone, including those who never use it.


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## Nomad420 (Jan 18, 2017)

dougp26364 said:


> We've done pretty much the same thing every year. Our original contract was an EOY 2 bedroom unit at the Las Vegas Karen Ave location. Other than the original sales presentation we've never set foot in that location. We upgraded to an EY contract at the Las Vegas strip location and have stayed there only once as a home week reservation. Otherwise we've borrowed, banked and booked anything but our home week. EOY we've gone to Hawaii with either our HGVC or MVC ownership, depending on what island we wanted to be on. Typically we'll book a 4 night stay at Elera in a Grand Plus unit over our anniversary.
> 
> The extra fee, if one ever appears, would definitely put a damper on our HGVC experience. However I can see a need for an ala carte fee such as this vs increasing MF's of club fee's for everyone in the system. I'm pretty sure the banking/borrowing ads cost to the reservation system and, as an owner, I like to keep my MF's as low as possible while maintaining the high quality product HGVC offers us. Thus, charge those who use it vs charging everyone, including those who never use it.



Sorry if this is a repeated question but I am new to HGVC/Hilton Club.  I thought there was a fee to "rescue" your points for one year to the next already in place?  I thought it was around $55.  Thanks in advance for your reply.


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## 1Kflyerguy (Jan 18, 2017)

Nomad420 said:


> Sorry if this is a repeated question but I am new to HGVC/Hilton Club.  I thought there was a fee to "rescue" your points for one year to the next already in place?  I thought it was around $55.  Thanks in advance for your reply.



You are correct, there is already a fee to push your points forward.  This discussion is about borrowing, or pulling next year's points into the current year.  That has always been free, hopefully it will remain free.


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## Tamaradarann (Jan 18, 2017)

alwysonvac said:


> It sounds like you want an exclusive booking window to use StarOptions or HGVC points to check-in any day of the week, in any size unit and for any number of days at your home resort before availability is opened up to all members. It's been discussed before.
> 
> While I am not supporting the concept of enhanced home week reservation rules from a personal benefit perspective, I can see it as a reasonable enhancement that owners should have.  The definition of home week to start on a certain day and end on a certain day is certainly a negative restriction to owning a certain resort.  However, owners at a certain resort being able to reserve home week period reservations in unit sizes that they don't own would be infringing on the benefits of the owners that size unit at that resort.


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## Nomad420 (Jan 18, 2017)

Thanks for the clarifications.  While new to the "Hilton Club" which is I guess slightly different to HGVC,  I have no "Home Week" but I guess in exchange we get less restrictive booking at the mid town NYC location.  I believe the 57th St locations also gets an "exclusive booking window".


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## alwysonvac (Jan 18, 2017)

Tamaradarann said:


> While I am not supporting the concept of enhanced home week reservation rules from a personal benefit perspective, I can see it as a reasonable enhancement that owners should have. The definition of home week to start on a certain day and end on a certain day is certainly a negative restriction to owning a certain resort. However, owners at a certain resort being able to reserve home week period reservations in unit sizes that they don't own would be infringing on the benefits of the owners that size unit at that resort.


They don't have to take away existing home week benefits. They can continue giving owners the unit size they own during the home week period. They would simply need to add a new enhanced booking window for home resort owners to start just before the existing Club reservation window begins. For example, a 7 day reservation window to book any size, any check-in day, for any number of days based on the number of points owned  for that specific usage year at their home resort.


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## dougp26364 (Jan 18, 2017)

Nomad420 said:


> Thanks for the clarifications.  While new to the "Hilton Club" which is I guess slightly different to HGVC,  I have no "Home Week" but I guess in exchange we get less restrictive booking at the mid town NYC location.  I believe the 57th St locations also gets an "exclusive booking window".



Well, I haven't been to an owners update in quite some time. Largely because A) I'm not about to buy retail from Hilton, B) They haven't been offering anything that interests enough to endure a presentation and C) Our last experience wasn't a good experience.

So the Hilton Club is new to me (forgive me, I don't read every thread on TUG. Only those which are of interest to me). Perhaps the borrowing points charge is something for this "New" Hilton Club concept where owners don't have a deeded week, only points. I'm making assumptions here based on the quoted post. I have no knowledge that Hilton was selling any sort of points only product.


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## Helios (Jan 18, 2017)

alwysonvac said:


> It sounds like you want an exclusive booking window to use StarOptions or HGVC points to check-in any day of the week, in any size unit and for any number of days at your home resort before availability is opened up to all members. It's been discussed before.
> 
> But I'm just not sure why you only want to exclude members who banked/borrowed. They are only going to impact you in the specific years they use this option. I would be more worried about the non-home resort owner that has 3+ annual weeks and are competing with you at your high demand resorts as soon as the booking window opens. You're competing with those folks annually.
> 
> I'm another one who uses banking and borrowing in HGVC, Starwood, Disney and WorldMark. It provides me the most flexibility.



Not really.  Home Resort resies are a non-issue (for the most part, I only hope the inventory was released when it is supposed to be released).  My problems is with open season in both systems.  

I'll focus on SVN since I know that systems better (but the same basic logic applies to HGVC).  At 8 months (mid night EST) before check in, anyone SO owner can book online (think about a Shark Feeding Frenzy exponentially).  Owners with current year SOs and banked SOs can compete for these resies.  Owners who are borrowing need to wait to reserve the next morning (via phone and their future year MFs need to be prepaid).  So, all I am saying is that the banker owners should wait to reserve at 9 AM EST.  As a workaround, I can reserve 3 weeks using SOs (2 weeks before the week I need) and then drop the 2 early weeks when the time comes.  Is this sneaky, of course, but I feel I have to play the game...I only started doing this when I learned my lesson and realized the competition got pretty intense.  I partially attribute this competition to banking (and somewhat to borrowing).

I know some HGVC owners start reserving, adding nights, dropping nights, and rolling forward until they get what they need.  I've read about this here...


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## Helios (Jan 18, 2017)

alwysonvac said:


> They don't have to take away existing home week benefits. They can continue giving owners the unit size they own during the home week period. They would simply need to add a new enhanced booking window for home resort owners to start just before the existing Club reservation window begins. For example, a 7 day reservation window to book any size, any check-in day, for any number of days based on the number of points owned  for that specific usage year at their home resort.


How do like the SVN concept of Home Options?


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## alwysonvac (Jan 18, 2017)

Helios said:


> How do like the SVN concept of Home Options?


I really haven't looked at the SVN Home Options.


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## Helios (Jan 18, 2017)

It works basically the way you described in your post: "For example, a 7 day reservation window to book any size, any check-in day, for any number of days based on the number of points owned for that specific usage year at their home resort."

If you book a smaller size you can reserve more nights and viceversa.


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## tschwa2 (Jan 19, 2017)

If they are like other systems, it won't be a simple resale vs retail, on who pays or who pays a discounted fee or no fee. It will be status vs non status.  A non status retail buyer will be in the same boat as the resale buyer and the new fees could apply.  Gold owners may get a discounted fee and platinum owners may have the fee waived.  That way no one has to be grandfathered.  The sales people have another angle to use to make the sale, Hilton Vacation club makes more money by adding new fees.


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## Tamaradarann (Jan 19, 2017)

tschwa2 said:


> If they are like other systems, it won't be a simple resale vs retail, on who pays or who pays a discounted fee or no fee. It will be status vs non status.  A non status retail buyer will be in the same boat as the resale buyer and the new fees could apply.  Gold owners may get a discounted fee and platinum owners may have the fee waived.  That way no one has to be grandfathered.  The sales people have another angle to use to make the sale, Hilton Vacation club makes more money by adding new fees.



Please explain your position further particularly what status versus non status means.  Also, are you talking about the fee for borrowing points?  If the borrowing fee is in the same general price range of saving points it certainly shouldn't be a very complicated fee schedule.


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## tschwa2 (Jan 19, 2017)

> That is a new line item on the reservation details, I just looked at a reservation I made last year and it only shows the $55 res fee.
> 
> If it is a new fee they will be adding, I think it will be for all owners. HGVC doesn't stick it to resale owners like some of the other systems like Wastegate. The only higher resale fee I can think of is the one time enrollment fee. Resale restrictions are mostly sales BS for HGVC.




By status I mean elite vs non elite as opposed to retail vs resale.  Obvious retail would fall under the same category as retail non elite.  No need to grandfather resale buyers into anything.  They could just add no fees to borrow under one of the levels or reduced fees to borrow. http://www.hgvcelite.com/recognition/at-a-glance/


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## Nomad420 (Jan 19, 2017)

dougp26364 said:


> Well, I haven't been to an owners update in quite some time. Largely because A) I'm not about to buy retail from Hilton, B) They haven't been offering anything that interests enough to endure a presentation and C) Our last experience wasn't a good experience.
> 
> So the Hilton Club is new to me (forgive me, I don't read every thread on TUG. Only those which are of interest to me). Perhaps the borrowing points charge is something for this "New" Hilton Club concept where owners don't have a deeded week, only points. I'm making assumptions here based on the quoted post. I have no knowledge that Hilton was selling any sort of points only product.



I am relatively new to the Hilton TS system as well but yes at the Hilton Club I do NOT have a "Home Week" but do have deeded property at the Mid Town Manhattan location (and of course points).  As far as a fee for borrowing points I will need to see if their is indeed one.  I would not be surprised if their one, every time I turn around here as a new owner I am getting hit with some kind of "service fee".  I guess welcome to HGVC/HC......


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## Tamaradarann (Jan 19, 2017)

alwysonvac said:


> They don't have to take away existing home week benefits. They can continue giving owners the unit size they own during the home week period. They would simply need to add a new enhanced booking window for home resort owners to start just before the existing Club reservation window begins. For example, a 7 day reservation window to book any size, any check-in day, for any number of days based on the number of points owned  for that specific usage year at their home resort.



That certainly would give a benefit for those owning a resort that they want to vacation in.  However, there is a fear in this group about the new independently owned HGVC treating developer purchasers better than resale purchasers.  The topic of thread is concerned with the implementation of a borrowing fee and the fear of it being levied only on resale purchasers.  In that vein if HGVC implemented an enhanced reservation window for home resort owners it may be only for developer purchasers at the resort not resale purchasers.


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## alwysonvac (Jan 20, 2017)

Well since we're speculating, here are my thoughts...

I don't believe HGVC will levy fees just for resale owners. Any new/updated fees would apply to all owners (BAU) however there might be discounted fees for Elite members.

I don't think HGVC will establish rules that give developer purchases an advantage over resale purchases when it comes to their core product (club resorts) that includes banking, borrowing and the reservation windows.

However it's possible that in the future, HGVC might limit access to specific club features (such HHonors, Club Partner Perks, other partnerships) that goes beyond  their core product (club resorts) to developer purchasers only and grandfather existing members.


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