# AA US Merger threatened



## x3 skier (Aug 13, 2013)

DoJ files suit to block the merger. Wonder why it took this long? Two days before the final approval hearing before the bankruptcy judge, DoJ jumps in after a year or more of saying nothing. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/splever...ger-challenged-under-fire-from-doj-state-ags/

Cheers


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## Rent_Share (Aug 14, 2013)

Couldn't happen to b a bigger jerk than Doug Porker


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## sjsharkie (Aug 14, 2013)

Don't be fooled.  This is just another move in the negotiation game.

This merger still has a good likelihood of going through.  DOJ will get some concessions -- e.g., a few gates released at restricted airports (for sure Reagan where AA has a stranglehold).

It will just take some time for agreement on the concessions.

-ryan


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## Carolinian (Aug 18, 2013)

Hooray for the DOJ.  Such lawsuits are complex and take some time to put together, but it looks like the DOJ is nailing USAir with its own internal emails, which give insight into how this merger will screw customers.   If you read the complaint, it suggests that they are out to fry bigger fish than a few gates at a few airports.  The mergers that have already happened are pushing the airline industry toward an ogligopoly where diminished competition will make consumers the losers.  The mergers should have been stopped dead in their tracks with the very first one, DL and NW.  The DOJ now has the data on how the earlier mergers have raised fares, so hopefully they will fight this out all the way and stop this one.  Better late than never.


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## cowboy (Aug 18, 2013)

Does anyone have any information on what occurred at the bankruptcy hearing scheduled for 8/15 as mentioned in Forbes article?


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## x3 skier (Aug 18, 2013)

cowboy said:


> Does anyone have any information on what occurred at the bankruptcy hearing scheduled for 8/15 as mentioned in Forbes article?



The judge postponed a ruling because of the DoJ suit. 

Cheers


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## BocaBoy (Aug 25, 2013)

Carolinian said:


> Hooray for the DOJ.  Such lawsuits are complex and take some time to put together, but it looks like the DOJ is nailing USAir with its own internal emails, which give insight into how this merger will screw customers.   If you read the complaint, it suggests that they are out to fry bigger fish than a few gates at a few airports.  The mergers that have already happened are pushing the airline industry toward an ogligopoly where diminished competition will make consumers the losers.  The mergers should have been stopped dead in their tracks with the very first one, DL and NW.  The DOJ now has the data on how the earlier mergers have raised fares, so hopefully they will fight this out all the way and stop this one.  Better late than never.



I think this merger would be good for everyone.  Three strong competitors (plus Southwest) is a lot better than two strong ones and two weaker ones.  Consumers may have been better off with 6 competitors, but with two large mergers already completed, this one makes sense.


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## Talent312 (Aug 25, 2013)

Which airline do you work for?
Sorry, but IMHO, the Antitrust Division of the DOJ got this one right.

As separate airlines who've shed legacy debts, they'll do fine by themselves.
Combined, many origin-destination routes would effectively have no competition.

=T=


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## dioxide45 (Aug 26, 2013)

I am not sure I agree either. Consolidation in the marketplace is not good for the consumer. Three mega airlines is not good for the customer. Especially when they control so many routes.

I do agree that one healthy airline is better than two unhealthy ones, but how about we let the marketplace decide which is better and if one goes away because it simply can't survive, then so be it.

The merger wasn't really necessary, AA had a plan to exit bankruptcy and become a profitable airline. I also think that the DOJ did the customer a disservice when they allowed the SW/Airtran merger to go through unchallenged.


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## x3 skier (Aug 26, 2013)

What is OK for Delta and Northwest and then Untied and Continental and then Southwest and AirTran is not OK for American and Useless Air?

Can anybody explain that? I need to see who donated the most to the President's re-election campaign. 

Not that it might have anything to do with it.

Cheers


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## cgeidl (Aug 26, 2013)

*Airlines not making much money*

If you look historically at airlines profits as a whole they are not very good investments comparatively. The merger will go through with several gates given up. The combined routes give much better route coverage. American may not survive without the merger and US Airways probably would have gone under if little Doug Parker and a regional airline(America West) did not take them over.It is ludicrous that the merged airlines still do not have East and West pilots flying together and no pilot agreement after many years. Now another airline to extend the disagreements.


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## Rent_Share (Aug 26, 2013)

America West was getting smacked by Southwest trying to compete with Phoenix as a principal hub


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## SMHarman (Aug 26, 2013)

cgeidl said:


> If you look historically at airlines profits as a whole they are not very good investments comparatively. The merger will go through with several gates given up. The combined routes give much better route coverage. American may not survive without the merger and US Airways probably would have gone under if little Doug Parker and a regional airline(America West) did not take them over.It is ludicrous that the merged airlines still do not have East and West pilots flying together and no pilot agreement after many years. Now another airline to extend the disagreements.


http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Branson


			
				Richard Branson said:
			
		

> If you want to be a Millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline.


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## bogey21 (Aug 26, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> What is OK for Delta and Northwest and then Untied and Continental and then Southwest and AirTran is not OK for American and Useless Air?



My question exactly.  Seems to me that creating another strong competitor to compete with the larger Delta/Northwest and United/Continental makes more sense than letting either American or US Air go out of business.

George


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## Rent_Share (Aug 26, 2013)

Some what of a coulda shouda woulda sentiment had Delta NW never happened, the UAL/CO and US/AA shouldn't have been allowed.

How far back

Delta/Western
Usless Air / PSA - Try to fly north south on the west coast on US Air

So many regionals swallowed by the majors .....


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 26, 2013)

Rent_Share said:


> Some what of a coulda shouda woulda sentiment had Delta NW never happened, the UAL/CO and US/AA shouldn't have been allowed.
> 
> How far back
> 
> ...



You  can add American and AirCal to the Useless Air/PSA merger.  Both US Air and American were more interested in the regionals as a means to feed customers into their east-west routes than in actually flying north-south on the west coast.  That opened the door for Alaska to make their big push into the lower 48 as well as for Morris Air to start up in Salt Lake City.  Morris Air eventually was acquired by SWA (the founders all along had been to get acquired by SWA eventually).

In both cases within a few years the big legacy carrier had no more routes in the west than they had before the merger.  

Delta has been smarter.  They've stopped flying the north south routes they acquired with Western, and instead they just codeshare with Alaska. American Also codeshares with Alaska; post merger I doubt that Alaska will codeshare with USAir.  

Fliers who transfer their allegiance to USAir on the west coast will then be relegated to flying regional jets for direct flights to anywhere but Phoenix.


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## Ken555 (Aug 27, 2013)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> You  can add American and AirCal to the Useless Air/PSA merger.  Both US Air and American were more interested in the regionals as a means to feed customers into their east-west routes than in actually flying north-south on the west coast.



I used to fly Reno Air north-south often and it was a great airline. Once AA gobbled them up, things changed quickly. I don't mind AA too much, but prefer many others (I've still got a lot of AA miles to use, and seem to keep acquiring more...).



> Fliers who transfer their allegiance to USAir on the west coast will then be relegated to flying regional jets for direct flights to anywhere but Phoenix.



I hate those regional jets. I understand their efficiency and desirability by the airlines, but they don't work for me well at all. The last one I was on - AA from North Carolina to Dallas, a 3Hr+ on-board flight, was the worst. No water in the bathroom (they included wipes in the basin); filthy aircraft; late. I recently was on a US Air regional in the northeast for an hour flight and it was surprisingly much, much better than AA. 

My limit is now one hour +/- for a regional, or else I'd prefer to take larger planes even if it means a longer travel day. However, this is relatively easy for the airlines to fix, if they wanted to. Clean the planes better. Make sure the water is working. 

I'm also still bringing my own wipes and hand sanitizer with on flights which I use occasionally, and if you knew me you'd know I'd likely be among the last to worry about such things. Interestingly (and not surprisingly), ever since I started doing this I have taken ill much less in the days immediately after flying.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 27, 2013)

Ken555 said:


> I used to fly Reno Air north-south often and it was a great airline. Once AA gobbled them up, things changed quickly. I don't mind AA too much, but prefer many others (I've still got a lot of AA miles to use, and seem to keep acquiring more...).


I forget about Reno Air.  IIRC - AA actually encouraged and supported the Reno Air startup as a way to compete on the west coast after Southwest moved into the area.  They allied quickly with Reno Air, cutting back their San Jose operations and getting Reno Air into the gates.  Then they let Reno Air provide their west coast service.  I guess AA then moved into acquire Reno as part of their strategy to compete with Southwest; let Reno figure out how to do then buy the capabilities.  



Ken555 said:


> I hate those regional jets. I understand their efficiency and desirability by the airlines, but they don't work for me well at all. The last one I was on - AA from North Carolina to Dallas, a 3Hr+ on-board flight, was the worst. No water in the bathroom (they included wipes in the basin); filthy aircraft; late. I recently was on a US Air regional in the northeast for an hour flight and it was surprisingly much, much better than AA.
> 
> My limit is now one hour +/- for a regional, or else I'd prefer to take larger planes even if it means a longer travel day. However, this is relatively easy for the airlines to fix, if they wanted to. Clean the planes better. Make sure the water is working.


I share your sentiment on the regional jets.  I do a fair amount of flying on Horizon, but that's all one and two hour flights.  Long enough to enjoy the free beer and wine.  

My biggest issue with the regional jets is that it's impossible to get any serious work done while in the air.  Since I bill by the hour, losting that hour of work time really make those into expensive flights.


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## Rent_Share (Aug 27, 2013)

Don't forget that most of the RJ's are flown by non-union subcontracted affiliates with some other word tacked on the end of the name.

http://www.skyshirts.com/index.php?cPath=30


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## x3 skier (Aug 27, 2013)

I really miss Piedmont.

Cheers


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## MichaelColey (Aug 27, 2013)

sjsharkie said:


> Don't be fooled.  This is just another move in the negotiation game.
> 
> This merger still has a good likelihood of going through.  DOJ will get some concessions -- e.g., a few gates released at restricted airports (for sure Reagan where AA has a stranglehold).
> 
> It will just take some time for agreement on the concessions.


I think Ryan pegged it here.  The DOJ has no intention of stopping the merger.  They're just flexing their muscles to get the concessions they want.

Although I'm a bit apprehensive at what Doug Parker will do to AA, I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that the merger will happen.


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## SMHarman (Aug 27, 2013)

Though there was a lot of noise today about JBLU being a replacement target...
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=JBLU
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/jetb...rofits-wUpedTqMRBWA_7cL6l97Lg.html?cmpid=yhoo


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## Talent312 (Aug 27, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> I really miss Piedmont.



While we're waxing nostalgic... I miss Air Florida (1972-1984)... no I mean, National (1934-1980).

Not that National was a great airline, but it had one really nice flight attendant who,
on a nearly empty flight from DCA, sat beside me and plied me w-free alcohol.




_Those were the days..._


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Aug 27, 2013)

Talent312 said:


> While we're waxing nostalgic... I miss Air Florida (1972-1984)... no I mean, National (1934-1980).
> 
> Not that National was a great airline, but it had one really nice flight attendant who,
> on a nearly empty flight from DCA, sat beside me and plied me w-free alcohol.
> ...


When we first arrived in Seattle there was relatively small regional airline named Mark Air, that was trying to position itself as a low-coast carrier and poach Alaska Air customers.  We flew them one time to California.

We checked in at the ticket counter, went to the gate. When we boarded the plane the same guy who had been at the ticket counter was now the gate agent.  After everyone was on the plane we glanced out the window and there he was again, working on the tarmac.

Which prompted my son to comment, "Hey, I bet that's Mark himself.  And after he's done down there he's probably going to fly the plane too."


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## Carolinian (Aug 28, 2013)

Ryan Air has had an eye on the American market for years, and if they jump in, it will really put the heat to the remaining legacies in the North American airline oligopoly.  Passengers need someone to stir some competition, even if it is RyanAir!  Otherwise fares will keep going up and service down.  At least with Ryan, while you do not expect much service, you do not pay much fare either. The trick is finding a way around the foreign ownership rules of the FAA.  Until the EU regulators turned them down, Ryan was trying to take over Aer Lingus as a route to TATL flying, where the foreign ownership rules would not be a problem.  Maybe they will just jump directly in, as another European LCC, Norwegian, recently did with TATL service.


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