# Wyndham Resale vs Developer Points:



## Ecelso (Jul 18, 2019)

I have been gathering understanding of resales vs developer for club wyndham, but I am still not sure that what I know is valid... can someone please validate the below and add/modify the understanding? Many thanks

*Developer:*
- will cost $$$ much more than resales point (CON)
- can be used to gain VIP status (PRO)
- has RCI (PRO)
- can deposit *weeks* into RCI (PRO)
- can deposit *points* into RCI (PRO)​
*Resale:*
- can be bought from $1 to several $k (PROP)
- *cannot* be used to gain VIP (CON)
- has RCI membership (PRO)
- can deposit *weeks* into RCI (PRO)
- can deposit points to Rci but can only get RCI weeks in return
-* cannot* book WM Resorts (CON)

*Both:
-* can be of CWS (deeded) or CWA (non-deeded)
- home resort booking can be done 13 in advance of check-in date
- all non-home resort can book 10 month in advanced of check-in date
- have 4PM checking (unless is VIP)
- do not have late check out (unless having Wyndam credit card with VIP)
- cannot request upgrade or specific room (unless is VIP)
- can use ovation program to give back/cancel points/membership
- get 1 transaction credit per 77K points (unless is VIP)
- can book presidential stay

*Unknown:*
- can developer points book in worldmark resorts?
- can either resale or developer point access II membership?

*Other: ?*


----------



## JohnPaul (Jul 18, 2019)

The only thing I can respond to is that you CANNOT book WM with resale.


----------



## dgalati (Jul 18, 2019)

Ecelso said:


> I have been gathering understanding of resales vs developer for club wyndham, but I am still not sure that what I know is valid... can someone please validate the below and add/modify the understanding? Many thanks
> 
> *Developer:*
> - will cost $$$ much more than resales point (CON)
> ...


Buying resale you can rent in the 60 day window from a VIP cheaper then owning and paying maintenance fees on you own points.


----------



## HDiaz1 (Jul 18, 2019)

Ecelso said:


> I have been gathering understanding of resales vs developer for club wyndham, but I am still not sure that what I know is valid... can someone please validate the below and add/modify the understanding? Many thanks
> 
> *Developer:*
> - will cost $$$ much more than resales point (CON)
> ...



No, you can not book WM with resale and yes, you can book presidential units. 

VIP is not worth it in my opinion. Resale is really the way to go.


----------



## capital city (Jul 18, 2019)

I believe there are very few contracts that cam give you II access and I dont think it has anything to do with VIP. Also resale can deposit points to Rci but we can only get RCI weeks in return. I dont anything about depositing a week into RCI, guessing that's for people that still own weeks instead of points?


----------



## Ecelso (Jul 18, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Buying resale you can rent in the 60 day window from a VIP cheaper then owning and paying maintenance fees on you own points.


Not sure I understand it. Sorry


JohnPaul said:


> The only thing I can respond to is that you CANNOT book WM with resale.



I updated the information. thank you!


----------



## Ecelso (Jul 18, 2019)

capital city said:


> I believe there are very few contracts that cam give you II access and I dont think it has anything to do with VIP. Also resale can deposit points to Rci but we can only get RCI weeks in return. I dont anything about depositing a week into RCI, guessing that's for people that still own weeks instead of points?


I updated the info with your response... probably more accurate. thank you!


----------



## ronparise (Jul 19, 2019)

There is value to vip and I would argue that the only two of the “pros” the op mentions that has any monetary  value are the discounted reservations and upgrades. But that value evaporates when compared to the secondary market

A million points purchased from wyndham will cost something like $150000. And MF will be about $7000 a year. Even if done with PIC you still have to buy 500000 points from wyndham with a purchase price of $75000 and pretty close to the same $7000 mf

And what do you get for that? half price for the reservations you make in the 60 days before check in and the possibility of upgrades.

So let’s assume our vip does all his reservations within the 60 day window. A non vip would have to own 2 million points to duplicate the same reservations

So let’s look at 2 guys with $150000 to commit to vacation ownership. One guy spends his $150000 with wyndham to buy a 1000000 point vip account with mf of $7000 a year.

And let’s further assume the other guy buys 2000000 points on the secondary for $10000 and his mf will be $14000 a year. This guy puts his remaining $140000 into 20 year municipal bonds paying $5% or $7000 a year. He uses this $7000 to pay half his mf

At the end of 20 years the vip  guy will have spent close to $300000 (purchase price plus mf) and own an asset worth about $5000. And our non vip will have spent the same (purchase price plus mf minus interest on the bond). The difference is he will ha e assets worth $150000 (the timeshare plus the bond)

For me this is a no brainer all the vip benefits can’t come close to the $150000 they cost


----------



## chapjim (Jul 19, 2019)

ronparise said:


> There is value to vip and I would argue that the only two of the “pros” the op mentions that has any monetary  value are the discounted reservations and upgrades. But that value evaporates when compared to the secondary market
> 
> A million points purchased from wyndham will cost something like $150000. And MF will be about $7000 a year. Even if done with PIC you still have to buy 500000 points from wyndham with a purchase price of $75000 and pretty close to the same $7000 mf
> 
> ...



The only comment I would make here is Ron's analysis assumes our hypothetical owners are starting at zero.  I doubt there are many folks out there that have no ownership and are thinking about jumping straight to VIP Platinum.

The analysis changes for current owners.  The more retail (developer) points a current owner has, the more attractive upgrading to VIP status becomes.


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

ronparise said:


> There is value to vip and I would argue that the only two of the “pros” the op mentions that has any monetary  value are the discounted reservations and upgrades. But that value evaporates when compared to the secondary market
> 
> A million points purchased from wyndham will cost something like $150000. And MF will be about $7000 a year. Even if done with PIC you still have to buy 500000 points from wyndham with a purchase price of $75000 and pretty close to the same $7000 mf
> 
> ...


Ron I am curious to know what would your analysis on renting instead of owning be? Assume 1/2 the vacations are booked in the 60 day discount window the others 60 days plus.


----------



## ronparise (Jul 19, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Ron I am curious to know what would your analysis on renting instead of owning be? Assume 1/2 the vacations are booked in the 60 day discount window the others 60 days plus.



I don’t think there is any difference between renting in the 60 day window or not. Every owner I knew that rented,  based their prices on the market, not on price per point. 

Having said that, I know that there are owners that just want some help with their mf and they will take whatever you offer. I just don’t think you can count on finding them and getting what you want at the last minute 

Now, if you are a last minute kinda guy and you don’t care where you stay I’d be looking at the last minute RCI inventory. Are they still $300 a week?

I own my cars, I don’t lease, I own a boat, I don’t charter, and I own my house, I don’t rent. If I have a choice With timeshares, I’m an owner;  a leasor , not a leassee


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

ronparise said:


> I don’t think there is any difference between renting in the 60 day window or not. Every owner I knew that rented,  based their prices on the market, not on price per point.
> 
> Having said that, I know that there are owners that just want some help with their mf and they will take whatever you offer. I just don’t think you can count on finding them and getting what you want at the last minute
> 
> ...



RCI Last call is a great deal at $244 per week no points needed for a 1 bedroom at Worldmark Tropicana or Grandview. Current RCI exchange vacation fee $239 for 1 week reservation, plus points needed for a 1 bedroom 77,000 or 105,000 depending on season.  The RCI exchange if booked during the off season is 1/2 the number of points it it would have cost a non VIP owner to book a 1 bedroom at the Grand Desert through Wyndham. A 154,000 wyndham points deposit into RCI along with a $478 exchange fee can get up to 2 weeks at the Grand desert or about 1/2 the cost in maintenance fees on the deeds if they were not sold or given back to Wyndham. Not a bad deal if you need more time to plan and had points  to deposit into RCI


----------



## Braindead (Jul 19, 2019)

dgalati said:


> I am curious to know what would your analysis on renting instead of owning be? Assume 1/2 the vacations are booked in the 60 day discount window the others 60 days plus.


I’m going to ask you politely that you stop posting your rental line until you get more facts from OPs for the following reasons
If you’re betting on discounts you better be willing to stay in studios or the smallest unit at the resort.
Many don’t want studios & that’s why they own timeshares

Almost all on these boards don’t recommend buying Timeshares if you don’t plan many months out.
Your recommendation doesn’t work for the vast majority wanting to stay in a timeshare.

Families expecting 3 or 4 bedrooms to be available are rarely going to find what they want at 60 days or less
Your rental advice couldn’t be worse for individuals with kids, school calendars yet you give it blind every time

You need to understand that you’re recommendation only works for a handful of folks looking to stay in Timeshares so please stop until you know what the prospective buyers needs are


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

ronparise said:


> I don’t think there is any difference between renting in the 60 day window or not. Every owner I knew that rented,  based their prices on the market, not on price per point.
> 
> Having said that, I know that there are owners that just want some help with their mf and they will take whatever you offer. I just don’t think you can count on finding them and getting what you want at the last minute
> 
> ...


Thanks Ron I appreciate your input.


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

ronparise said:


> There is value to vip and I would argue that the only two of the “pros” the op mentions that has any monetary  value are the discounted reservations and upgrades. But that value evaporates when compared to the secondary market
> 
> A million points purchased from wyndham will cost something like $150000. And MF will be about $7000 a year. Even if done with PIC you still have to buy 500000 points from wyndham with a purchase price of $75000 and pretty close to the same $7000 mf
> 
> ...


So your opinion is there is not much value in VIP.  What is your opinion about the new Privileges program? Is there any status worth the price being paid to purchase developer points??


----------



## jwalk03 (Jul 19, 2019)

dgalati said:


> So your opinion is there is not much value in VIP.  What is your opinion about the new Privileges program? Is there any status worth the price being paid to purchase developer points??



How could anyone know the answer to this yet, when they haven’t released the details?


----------



## chapjim (Jul 19, 2019)

dgalati said:


> So your opinion is there is not much value in VIP.  What is your opinion about the new Privileges program? Is there any status worth the price being paid to purchase developer points??



Dominic,

I think you are overrating this "rent from a VIP" thing.

There is a huge difference between renting something from a VIP inside 60 days and renting what you want from a VIP inside 60 days.  If a person wants to someplace, any place, on fairly short notice, renting from a VIP may be the answer.

When I book a reservation inside 60 days, I do it with the hope that someone will want it.  In a sense, I'm bottom feeding -- booking reservations that no one wanted or someone canceled and hoping that there is one person out there who would like to get what I booked at a very nice price.  If there is, fine.  If there isn't, that's okay, too.

In addition to perhaps overrating the "rent from a VIP" thing, you are an annoyance.  Please give it a rest.


----------



## ronparise (Jul 19, 2019)

dgalati said:


> So your opinion is there is not much value in VIP.  What is your opinion about the new Privileges program? Is there any status worth the price being paid to purchase developer points??



Understand, I havent owned Wyndham for a while and when I did, my experience was with  a lot of points all with platinum "status" and I got discounts and upgrades on almost all my reservations  and even then I couldnt justify paying for "status" for small account owners. Now that discounts are possible only in the 60 day window, I cant justify paying for "status" under any circumstances


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

ronparise said:


> Understand, I havent owned Wyndham for a while and when I did, my experience was with  a lot of points all with platinum "status" and I got discounts and upgrades on almost all my reservations  and even then I couldnt justify paying for "status" for small account owners. Now that discounts are possible only in the 60 day window, I cant justify paying for "status" under any circumstances


Thanks again Ron for your opinion on status and or Privilege's.


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

chapjim said:


> Dominic,
> 
> I think you are overrating this "rent from a VIP" thing.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jim I appreciate your comment. What about Privileges do you like the new Vip levels and would you buy for the status ?


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

jwalk03 said:


> How could anyone know the answer to this yet, when they haven’t released the details?


Just asking for a opinion but thanks for Your input JW.


----------



## ronparise (Jul 19, 2019)

chapjim said:


> The only comment I would make here is Ron's analysis assumes our hypothetical owners are starting at zero.  I doubt there are many folks out there that have no ownership and are thinking about jumping straight to VIP Platinum.
> 
> The analysis changes for current owners.  The more retail (developer) points a current owner has, the more attractive upgrading to VIP status becomes.


 I get that,  those owners have already spent a ton of money, The jump to VIP makes sense  if the owner can look at the money he spent as a "sunk" cost, because he'll never get it back.  To my way of thinking its throwing good money after bad. But thats me, Im always looking for a  "Return on Investment"


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

chapjim said:


> Dominic,
> 
> I think you are overrating this "rent from a VIP" thing.
> 
> ...


Jim, I make it work for me but thanks for your input.


----------



## ecwinch (Jul 19, 2019)

dgalati said:


> I also ask you politely....



Likewise as a moderator and regular poster, I will ask politely that you stop turning threads into this endless loop debate about renting from a VIP. As you can clearly see from post #6 - you are causing confusion with people trying to get answers to their questions. That is counter-productive to the purpose of TUG. If you value TUG as a resource that people can rely on for finding answers, I hope you will do a better job of moderating your behaviour to avoid the turn this thread has just made.

[Mod Note: Off-topic posts have been deleted]


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

ronparise said:


> I get that,  those owners have already spent a ton of money, The jump to VIP makes sense  if the owner can look at the money he spent as a "sunk" cost, because he'll never get it back.  To my way of thinking its throwing good money after bad. But thats me, Im always looking for a  "Return on Investment"


Hopefully you get that return on investment.  Good luck and make it work for you.


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

ronparise said:


> I get that,  those owners have already spent a ton of money, The jump to VIP makes sense  if the owner can look at the money he spent as a "sunk" cost, because he'll never get it back.  To my way of thinking its throwing good money after bad. But thats me, Im always looking for a  "Return on Investment"


----------



## dgalati (Jul 19, 2019)

Hopefully they make it work for themselves.  No matter how you are invested enjoy your ownership.


----------



## chapjim (Jul 19, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Thanks Jim I appreciate your comment. What about Privileges do you like the new Vip levels and would you buy for the status ?



I couldn't care less.  If 1,400,000 is the cut line for the top tier, I'm already there, whatever they call it.


----------



## bendadin (Jul 20, 2019)

Ecelso said:


> - do not have late check out (unless having Wyndam credit card with VIP)



Where did you find this? Well, heck, maybe I should go VIP.


----------



## Ecelso (Jul 20, 2019)

bendadin said:


> Where did you find this? Well, heck, maybe I should go VIP.



when I was doing the sales with the developer, which I rescinded, they sign me up with the wyndham rewards credit card: https://wyndhamrewardscreditcard.com/ it was one of the perks they kept telling me about for going gold... what I am not sure about is if you need to book your stay with the credit card or just have it. Also, I am thinking gold is not the same gold as VIP but the sales guy made it seem that way.


----------



## bendadin (Jul 21, 2019)

Preferred room selection and late check-out are subject to availability at check-in upon request for Qualified Stays & Go Free / Go Fast award stays at Wyndham Rewards hotels (excluding Caesars Entertainment hotels). Preferred room requested must be the same room type category as the originally booked room. Member Levels is a part of the Wyndham Rewards program. 

So basically it has nothing to do with the timeshare side.


----------



## Ecelso (Jul 21, 2019)

Good findings. Thanks for validating... I will update the post.


----------



## Grammarhero (Jul 22, 2019)

Developer points can book at WM.  Both developer and resale can book at Shell.  Check the directory at
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/wyndham/plus_membersdirectory1819/index.php#/19

FYI.  Your OP post is sticky-worthy, IMHo.  Not easy for even a TUG veteran to how a sticky-worthy thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Grammarhero (Jul 22, 2019)

Ecelso said:


> when I was doing the sales with the developer, which I rescinded, they sign me up with the wyndham rewards credit card: https://wyndhamrewardscreditcard.com/ it was one of the perks they kept telling me about for going gold... what I am not sure about is if you need to book your stay with the credit card or just have it. Also, I am thinking gold is not the same gold as VIP but the sales guy made it seem that way.



Mind telling us how much you saved with the recission?


----------



## Ecelso (Jul 22, 2019)

1. $43k for 300k points at Bennett Creek 
2. $3700 for 400k point Discovery program.

1. I cancelled #1 after doing math 
2. I cancelled #2 after learning about resale


----------



## dgalati (Jul 22, 2019)

Grammarhero said:


> Mind telling us how much you saved with the recission?


More the enough to buy Starbucks coffee.


----------



## dgalati (Jul 22, 2019)

Ecelso said:


> 1. $43k for 300k points at Bennett Creek
> 2. $3700 for 400k point Discovery program.
> 
> 1. I cancelled #1 after doing math
> 2. I cancelled #2 after learning about resale


Nice. Now due your due diligence before buying resale.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jul 22, 2019)

ronparise said:


> There is value to vip and I would argue that the only two of the “pros” the op mentions that has any monetary  value are the discounted reservations and upgrades. But that value evaporates when compared to the secondary market
> 
> A million points purchased from wyndham will cost something like $150000. And MF will be about $7000 a year. Even if done with PIC you still have to buy 500000 points from wyndham with a purchase price of $75000 and pretty close to the same $7000 mf
> 
> ...



Agree 100% on the general premise.  VIP is all about perceived value.  Couple of sticking points.  One, $150k for 1MM points is high.  I purchased 210k CWA points for $134/1000 last year.  I have no qualms saying that a 1MM point purchase could be had for $100k flat easily.  Still, VIP isn't worth 100k at least by the numbers.  I paid 27k a year ago for VIPG with PIC (currently VIPP for two years due to bonus point contract that expires Sept 2020).  I cannot justify paying any more to get up to VIPP with any kind of breakeven analysis though - and believe me I have tried over the past several months to find a way without success.  IME you can beat Wyndham MFs pretty handily with PIC - that's how I was able to find a breakeven within 10 years when compared to an equivalent resale buyer.  My MFs are significantly lower than any Wyndham resort for my 508k of PIC points.  If the PIC MFs are not significantly lower than the comparable Wyndham MFs, then breakeven isn't feasible either based upon my analytics.  Good feedback Ron, as always.


----------



## dgalati (Jul 22, 2019)

-can use ovation program to give back/cancel points/membership


Wyndham sets the asset price at $0 with Ovations.I would call this a con if buying developer points. If bought resale for less then $500 I would consider it a pro.


----------



## Grammarhero (Jul 22, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Agree 100% on the general premise.  VIP is all about perceived value.  Couple of sticking points.  One, $150k for 1MM points is high.  I purchased 210k CWA points for $134/1000 last year.  I have no qualms saying that a 1MM point purchase could be had for $100k flat easily.  Still, VIP isn't worth 100k at least by the numbers.  I paid 27k a year ago for VIPG with PIC (currently VIPP for two years due to bonus point contract that expires Sept 2020).  I cannot justify paying any more to get up to VIPP with any kind of breakeven analysis though - and believe me I have tried over the past several months to find a way without success.  IME you can beat Wyndham MFs pretty handily with PIC - that's how I was able to find a breakeven within 10 years when compared to an equivalent resale buyer.  My MFs are significantly lower than any Wyndham resort for my 508k of PIC points.  If the PIC MFs are not significantly lower than the comparable Wyndham MFs, then breakeven isn't feasible either based upon my analytics.  Good feedback Ron, as always.



Looks like you found a way to make buying developer points work for you.  Do you ever regret your retail purchase?


----------



## Richelle (Jul 22, 2019)

JohnPaul said:


> The only thing I can respond to is that you CANNOT book WM with resale.



You cannot book WM through Club Pass. You CAN book WM through RCI, with resale points. Like Club Pass, availability is limited during certain seasons. 







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Richelle (Jul 22, 2019)

Ecelso said:


> Not sure I understand it. Sorry
> 
> 
> I updated the information. thank you!



You can still book WM through RCI with resale points. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati (Jul 22, 2019)

Richelle said:


> You can still book WM through RCI with resale points.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I may add a few others Diamond resorts, Bluegreen, Shell, Tahiti club and Hilton vacations to name a few others


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jul 22, 2019)

dgalati said:


> -can use ovation program to give back/cancel points/membership
> 
> 
> Wyndham sets the asset price at $0 with Ovations.I would call this a con if buying developer points. If bought resale for less then $500 I would consider it a pro.



I respectfully disagree with a blanket statement like this for a few key reasons.  Particularly for higher MF contracts - basically CWA and any contract higher than the CWA MF rate.  You may not like the fact that Wyndham is unwilling to pay anything for recovering the points in question, but AFAIK they are also absorbing all fees during the Ovation transaction, including closing costs and transfer fees, which are normally at least $500.00 - and typically paid by the seller in the majority of resale transactions on the secondary market - almost without exception especially with higher MF resale transactions. 

Let's paint a real life example here.  Let's say someone owns 500k of CWA developer points.  They are paying $6.59/1000 MFs annually, or 500*6.59=$3295/year.  They choose to use Ovations and qualify for the limited edition program which entitles the owner to three years of free usage of their points.  Wyndham covers the transaction fees and takes over the MFs.  The owner gets three years at 500k/year points usage.  $3295*3=$9885 in free travel.  If you were to resell 500k CWA points on the secondary market, you would have to pay the transfer fees at $299, plus closing costs, and you have to continue making the MF payments until the third party closing company completes their process and sends the updated deed to Wyndham, after which the contract then actually transfers to the buyer (figure 90 days).  So, you the seller are on the hook for $299, plus CC of $200 (low really), plus $275*3=$825, or $1324.00 total.  If you would get maximum $5/1000 points on the resale market, or $2500.  $2500-1324=$1176.  Granted, you get $1176 in your pocket, but you also forgo almost 10k in free accommodations via the Limited Edition program.  Just one example of how your blanket statement can set the wrong expectation dependent upon the use case.


----------



## Richelle (Jul 22, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I respectfully disagree with a blanket statement like this for a few key reasons.  Particularly for higher MF contracts - basically CWA and any contract higher than the CWA MF rate.  You may not like the fact that Wyndham is unwilling to pay anything for recovering the points in question, but AFAIK they are also absorbing all fees during the Ovation transaction, including closing costs and transfer fees, which are normally at least $500.00 - and typically paid by the seller in the majority of resale transactions on the secondary market - almost without exception especially with higher MF resale transactions.
> 
> Let's paint a real life example here.  Let's say someone owns 500k of CWA developer points.  They are paying $6.59/1000 MFs annually, or 500*6.59=$3295/year.  They choose to use Ovations and qualify for the limited edition program which entitles the owner to three years of free usage of their points.  Wyndham covers the transaction fees and takes over the MFs.  The owner gets three years at 500k/year points usage.  $3295*3=$9885 in free travel.  If you were to resell 500k CWA points on the secondary market, you would have to pay the transfer fees at $299, plus closing costs, and you have to continue making the MF payments until the deed/contract actually transfers to the buyer (figure 90 days).  So, you the seller are on the hook for $299, plus CC of $200 (low really), plus $275*3=$825, or $1324.00 total.  If you would get maximum $5/1000 points on the resale market, or $2500.  $2500-1324=$1176.  Granted, you get $1176 in your pocket, but you also forgo almost 10k in free accommodations via the Limited Edition program.  Just one example of how your blanket statement can set the wrong expectation dependent upon the use case.



Just to add, Ovations is faster, so you’re paying maintenance fees for less time then if you were waiting for a resale transfer. The Ovations person said once the deed is recorded in Wyndham’s name, they stop collecting maintenance fees. On a private party transfer, the deed is recorded by a closing company and it takes 8-14 weeks for the transfer. So that’s an additional 2-3 months worth of maintenance fees you don’t have to pay when using Ovations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Braindead (Jul 22, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Wyndham sets the asset price at $0 with Ovations.
> If bought resale for less then $500 I would consider it a pro.


Both of these are blank statements that need to stop also as they are false.
Ovation sets a MINIMUM price if you want out. Wyndham Owners don’t have to pay to exit their timeshare except 2-3 months of MFs if Ovation accepts it.
Ovations is a GREAT program in my opinion

Whether it’s $0 or $100 or $50 or $500 there’s never a comment on how large the contracts are or the resort owned including CWA
To lead newbies to believe that no resale contracts have a value over $500 is false & misleading.
Resale contracts bring thousands of dollars all the time on ebay.
A NH 225k contract just sold for over $2,700 on ebay.
All 3 of us & many many owners have paid thousands for a single resale contract.
Do you think we’re all wrong & are foolish with our hard earned $$$$??

I will also ask you politely that you stop asking every VIP that comes along if they think VIP pays for itself.
You are looking at 3 owners & there’s more of us on here that purchased directly from Wyndham after purchasing resales.
None of us have regretted our purchases becoming VIPs & or PR owners.
Is it for everyone?? No but you don’t see us bashing resale only owners. Why?? RESPECT - what purpose is there for us to do that?? None in my opinion!!

So please stop bashing VIPs, direct purchase owners & everybody that’s paid more that $500 for a resale contract.
You & others will never be convinced that VIP is worth it while many VIPs will never be convinced it wasn’t worth it for their personal situation!! So please stop

The purpose of TUG is to help each other to get the most out of their ownership no matter what type & size of your ownership!!!!!!!!





HitchHiker71 said:


> I respectfully disagree with a blanket statement like this for a few key reasons.  Particularly for higher MF contracts - basically CWA and any contract higher than the CWA MF rate.  You may not like the fact that Wyndham is unwilling to pay anything for recovering the points in question, but AFAIK they are also absorbing all fees during the Ovation transaction, including closing costs and transfer fees, which are normally at least $500.00 - and typically paid by the seller in the majority of resale transactions on the secondary market - almost without exception especially with higher MF resale transactions.
> 
> Let's paint a real life example here.  Let's say someone owns 500k of CWA developer points.  They are paying $6.59/1000 MFs annually, or 500*6.59=$3295/year.  They choose to use Ovations and qualify for the limited edition program which entitles the owner to three years of free usage of their points.  Wyndham covers the transaction fees and takes over the MFs.  The owner gets three years at 500k/year points usage.  $3295*3=$9885 in free travel.  If you were to resell 500k CWA points on the secondary market, you would have to pay the transfer fees at $299, plus closing costs, and you have to continue making the MF payments until the deed/contract actually transfers to the buyer (figure 90 days).  So, you the seller are on the hook for $299, plus CC of $200 (low really), plus $275*3=$825, or $1324.00 total.  If you would get maximum $5/1000 points on the resale market, or $2500.  $2500-1324=$1176.  Granted, you get $1176 in your pocket, but you also forgo almost 10k in free accommodations via the Limited Edition program.  Just one example of how your blanket statement can set the wrong expectation dependent upon the use case.





Richelle said:


> Just to add, Ovations is faster, so you’re paying maintenance fees for less time then if you were waiting for a resale transfer. The Ovations person said once the deed is recorded in Wyndham’s name, they stop collecting maintenance fees. On a private party transfer, the deed is recorded by a closing company and it takes 8-14 weeks for the transfer. So that’s an additional 2-3 months worth of maintenance fees you don’t have to pay when using Ovations.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jimag (Jul 22, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Both of these are blank statements that need to stop also as they are false.
> Ovation sets a MINIMUM price if you want out. Wyndham Owners don’t have to pay to exit their timeshare if Ovation accepts it.
> Ovations is a GREAT program in my opinion
> 
> ...



Am I not reading closely enough?  There seems to be a disconnect between your analysis and Richelle's post in response.  I understand your post to say Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the Ovation process is started.  Richelle reports that Wyndham's Ovation person indicated that Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the deed transfers.  That presumably would be at the end of the process.  If that's correct, the benefit of using Ovation is less than you suggest.


----------



## Jimag (Jul 22, 2019)

HitchHiker71 said:


> I respectfully disagree with a blanket statement like this for a few key reasons.  Particularly for higher MF contracts - basically CWA and any contract higher than the CWA MF rate.  You may not like the fact that Wyndham is unwilling to pay anything for recovering the points in question, but AFAIK they are also absorbing all fees during the Ovation transaction, including closing costs and transfer fees, which are normally at least $500.00 - and typically paid by the seller in the majority of resale transactions on the secondary market - almost without exception especially with higher MF resale transactions.
> 
> Let's paint a real life example here.  Let's say someone owns 500k of CWA developer points.  They are paying $6.59/1000 MFs annually, or 500*6.59=$3295/year.  They choose to use Ovations and qualify for the limited edition program which entitles the owner to three years of free usage of their points.  Wyndham covers the transaction fees and takes over the MFs.  The owner gets three years at 500k/year points usage.  $3295*3=$9885 in free travel.  If you were to resell 500k CWA points on the secondary market, you would have to pay the transfer fees at $299, plus closing costs, and you have to continue making the MF payments until the deed/contract actually transfers to the buyer (figure 90 days).  So, you the seller are on the hook for $299, plus CC of $200 (low really), plus $275*3=$825, or $1324.00 total.  If you would get maximum $5/1000 points on the resale market, or $2500.  $2500-1324=$1176.  Granted, you get $1176 in your pocket, but you also forgo almost 10k in free accommodations via the Limited Edition program.  Just one example of how your blanket statement can set the wrong expectation dependent upon the use case.



I mistakenly posted this comment to Braindead's post below.  I hope posting it here helps to resolve the confusion:

Am I not reading closely enough? There seems to be a disconnect between your analysis and Richelle's post in response. I understand your post to say Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the Ovation process is started. Richelle reports that Wyndham's Ovation person indicated that Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the deed transfers. That presumably would be at the end of the process. If that's correct, the benefit of using Ovation is less than you suggest.


----------



## Richelle (Jul 22, 2019)

Braindead said:


> Both of these are blank statements that need to stop also as they are false.
> Ovation sets a MINIMUM price if you want out. Wyndham Owners don’t have to pay to exit their timeshare if Ovation accepts it.
> Ovations is a GREAT program in my opinion
> 
> ...



I find that the people who are adamant that VIP is not worth anything, and go through the trouble of calculating numbers, are often the ones who want it most. They go through the math, so they can convince themselves it’s not worth it. Even though they can see the perceived value, and would actually like to have those benefits, they rely on the calculations to convince themselves (not necessarily us), that VIP is not worth the cost. I’m not saying dgalati is one of those people. I’m saying I’ve seen plenty of people bash VIPs for purchasing retail, but a lot of them secretly want the benefits, even though they know the math doesn’t add a up. I’ve had some private message me, and ask about how they can go VIP with PIC.  Publicly though, they are adamant that they will never spend the money to go VIP.  So I have learned to overlook their math, and comments about VIP worth. Their opinion of worth doesn’t matter when it comes to MY money. Just like my opinion doesn’t matter when it comes to their money. 

The people who bash VIPs should drive the base model cars, because you don’t need to get the frills to go from point A to point B. Perhaps they should buy a tiny house with a one bathroom. You are not required to have one bathroom to live. Better yet, maybe they shouldn’t go on vacation at all, because they could invest that money and get a return that they will spend on nothing because 90% of what we buy or use is not needed to survive. If they want to tell us the worth of what we buy, they maybe we can tell them the worth of their car, house, boat, RV, etc. Of course, you can say houses and cars have resale value and timeshare do not. The problem with that argument is, I didn’t buy to invest. I bought because I wanted more then a hotel room when I vacation. I never expected any resale value. The only time I really consider resale value is with a house, because houses can often be harder to get rid of then timeshares, if you’re in a buyers market or the market value decreased on your house. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Jimag (Jul 22, 2019)

Jimag said:


> I mistakenly posted this comment to Braindead's post below.  I hope posting it here helps to resolve the confusion:
> 
> Am I not reading closely enough? There seems to be a disconnect between your analysis and Richelle's post in response. I understand your post to say Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the Ovation process is started. Richelle reports that Wyndham's Ovation person indicated that Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the deed transfers. That presumably would be at the end of the process. If that's correct, the benefit of using Ovation is less than you suggest.



Now that I've reread the posts, I think I understand.  The question is how long it takes Wyndham to transfer the deed after the documents requesting relinquishing a contract through Ovations are submitted.  At the least it cuts out the time it takes the reseller to perform it's part of the deal.


----------



## Richelle (Jul 22, 2019)

Jimag said:


> I mistakenly posted this comment to Braindead's post below.  I hope posting it here helps to resolve the confusion:
> 
> Am I not reading closely enough? There seems to be a disconnect between your analysis and Richelle's post in response. I understand your post to say Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the Ovation process is started. Richelle reports that Wyndham's Ovation person indicated that Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the deed transfers. That presumably would be at the end of the process. If that's correct, the benefit of using Ovation is less than you suggest.



I do not think he is suggesting that Wyndham takes over the maintenance fees as soon as the process starts, but I see how it could be read that way. I think he just means that in Ovations scenario, Wyndham is taking responsibility for the maintenance fees. In a private sale, the owner takes on the responsibility of maintenance fees. I just think he was distinguishing the difference in process, and not so much that Wyndham takes it over immediately when the process starts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jul 22, 2019)

Jimag said:


> Am I not reading closely enough?  There seems to be a disconnect between your analysis and Richelle's post in response.  I understand your post to say Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the Ovation process is started.  Richelle reports that Wyndham's Ovation person indicated that Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the deed transfers.  That presumably would be at the end of the process.  If that's correct, the benefit of using Ovation is less than you suggest.



No because the closing company typically adds 8-14 weeks to the transfer process, hence the 90 days (what Richelle referred to as 2-3 months) in my math.


----------



## HitchHiker71 (Jul 22, 2019)

Jimag said:


> Now that I've reread the posts, I think I understand.  The question is how long it takes Wyndham to transfer the deed after the documents requesting relinquishing a contract through Ovations are submitted.  At the least it cuts out the time it takes the reseller to perform it's part of the deal.



Yep, exactly.   I edited my original post to better make the point.


----------



## chapjim (Jul 22, 2019)

Richelle said:


> I find that the people who are adamant that VIP is not worth anything, and go through the trouble of calculating numbers, are often the ones who want it most. They go through the math, so they can convince themselves it’s not worth it. Even though they can see the perceived value, and would actually like to have those benefits, they rely on the calculations to convince themselves (not necessarily us), that VIP is not worth the cost. I’m not saying dgalati is one of those people. I’m saying I’ve seen plenty of people bash VIPs for purchasing retail, but a lot of them secretly want the benefits, even though they know the math doesn’t add a up. I’ve had some private message me, and ask about how they can go VIP with PIC.  Publicly though, they are adamant that they will never spend the money to go VIP.  So I have learned to overlook their math, and comments about VIP worth. Their opinion of worth doesn’t matter when it comes to MY money. Just like my opinion doesn’t matter when it comes to their money.
> 
> The people who bash VIPs should drive the base model cars, because you don’t need to get the frills to go from point A to point B. Perhaps they should buy a tiny house with a one bathroom. You are not required to have one bathroom to live. Better yet, maybe they shouldn’t go on vacation at all, because they could invest that money and get a return that they will spend on nothing because 90% of what we buy or use is not needed to survive. If they want to tell us the worth of what we buy, they maybe we can tell them the worth of their car, house, boat, RV, etc. Of course, you can say houses and cars have resale value and timeshare do not. The problem with that argument is, I didn’t buy to invest. I bought because I wanted more then a hotel room when I vacation. I never expected any resale value. The only time I really consider resale value is with a house, because houses can often be harder to get rid of then timeshares, if you’re in a buyers market or the market value decreased on your house.
> 
> ...



And besides, if there were no VIPs, there wouldn't be anybody to rent from!

Edit:  See Post #3 above.


----------



## Richelle (Jul 22, 2019)

Jimag said:


> Now that I've reread the posts, I think I understand.  The question is how long it takes Wyndham to transfer the deed after the documents requesting relinquishing a contract through Ovations are submitted.  At the least it cuts out the time it takes the reseller to perform it's part of the deal.



Actually, in most cases, it takes Wyndham the same amount of time to get the paperwork and quick claim deed to the owner, as it would with a decent closing company. The time it cuts out is the time it takes Wyndham to do the steps after the deed is recorded. With a private sale, the original owner is still paying the maintenance fees after the new deed is recorded, because Wyndham has to review the deed and do their part. With Ovations, Wyndham is the one that records the deed. They relieve you of the maintenance fees faster then they would with a private sale, because in a private sale, you have to wait for Wyndham to finish their part of the transfer before the maintenance fee responsibility to the new owner.  The private sale goes something like this:

1. Get an Estoppel from Wyndham (up to 20 business days)
2. Get a buyer (time varies)
3. Both parties complete the sale paperwork. (1-3 weeks depending on closing companies due diligence and timeliness of both parties returning paperwork)
4. Closing company records the deed (1-6 weeks depending on closing company and county’s timeliness)
5. Closing company sends paperwork to Wyndham (1-2 weeks depending if method of mailing)
6. Wyndham transfers ownership and maintenance fee responsibility to new owner (8-12 weeks)

Ovations steps

1. Call Wyndham to start the process (20 minutes.)
2. Wyndham emails documents to be filled out and notarized. (2-3 weeks, but Wyndham says could take 8-10 weeks)
3. Owner mails in paperwork (1 week depending on timeliness and method of shipment)
4. Wyndham records the deed And takes over maintenance fees (Wyndham says 3-4 weeks)


So the private sale process can take up to six months. Ovations process is supposed to be less then 3 months. I’m completed step 3 of the Ovations process in less then 3 weeks. The completed paperwork has already been delivered to Wyndham. We’ll have to see if step 4 takes the full 4 weeks. Considering how quickly they got the paperwork to me, I’m expecting more like two weeks. So that would put the process at less then six weeks if that happens. That’s almost 3 months worth of maintenance fees I do not have to pay. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dgalati (Jul 22, 2019)

chapjim said:


> And besides, if there were no VIPs, there wouldn't be anybody to rent from!


Valid point but not true. It can be misleading to newbies that are not aware or know about Extra Holidays.


----------



## Braindead (Jul 22, 2019)

Jimag said:


> Am I not reading closely enough?  There seems to be a disconnect between your analysis and Richelle's post in response.  I understand your post to say Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the Ovation process is started.  Richelle reports that Wyndham's Ovation person indicated that Wyndham assumes responsibility for MFs when the deed transfers.  That presumably would be at the end of the process.  If that's correct, the benefit of using Ovation is less than you suggest.


I edited my post as well to if one is using Ovations that they would need to pay 2-3 months of MFs
I meant owners don’t have to pay exit companies or even a transfer company like LT Transfers & months of MFs or Wyndham their $299 transfer fee


----------



## dgalati (Jul 22, 2019)

Ecelso said:


> 1. $43k for 300k points at Bennett Creek
> 2. $3700 for 400k point Discovery program.
> 
> 1. I cancelled #1 after doing math
> 2. I cancelled #2 after learning about resale


This was a great decision or would I be correct saying recission?


----------



## chapjim (Jul 22, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Valid point but not true. It can be misleading to newbies that are not aware or know about Extra Holidays.



Ah!  Extra Holidays!! Great idea! Good stuff really cheap there!


----------



## Cyrus24 (Jul 22, 2019)

chapjim said:


> Ah!  Extra Holidays!! Great idea! Good stuff really cheap there!


LOL.  And, we circle back to why VIP's are needed.  To rent from!!!  Anybody with points, developer or resale/VIP or not, knows that the MF equivalent cost for a unit is much less than the cost of renting from EH.


----------



## dgalati (Jul 22, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> LOL.  And, we circle back to why VIP's are needed.  To rent from!!!  Anybody with points, developer or resale/VIP or not, knows that the MF equivalent cost for a unit is much less than the cost of renting from EH.


Great but how is this post related to op's original question? Another hijacked thread you can claim to be part of.


----------



## Cyrus24 (Jul 22, 2019)

dgalati said:


> Valid point but not true. It can be misleading to newbies that are not aware or know about Extra Holidays.


Not me.  The hijacking occurred right here when EH was brought into the conversation.


----------



## dgalati (Jul 22, 2019)

Cyrus24 said:


> Not me.  The hijacking occurred right here.





dgalati said:


> -can use ovation program to give back/cancel points/membership
> 
> 
> Wyndham sets the asset price at $0 with Ovations.I would call this a con if buying developer points. If bought resale for less then $500 I would consider it a pro.


No the hijacking started way before that. After my reply to op's original question. None of the reply's had any value to OP'S original post. Most were point counter point to what one said or didn't say. SMH


----------



## chapjim (Jul 22, 2019)

dgalati said:


> No the hijacking started way before that. After my reply to op's original question. None of the reply's had any value to OP'S original post. Most were point counter point to what one said or didn't say. SMH



Dominic,

Your first post on this thread was #3:  "Buying resale you can rent in the 60 day window from a VIP cheaper then owning and paying maintenance fees on you own points."

Please tell us how that has anything to do with retail v. resale points.  You don't need any points of any kind to rent from a VIP.  You are Maslow's Hammer personified.


----------



## dgalati (Jul 22, 2019)

chapjim said:


> Dominic,
> 
> Your first post on this thread was #3:  "Buying resale you can rent in the 60 day window from a VIP cheaper then owning and paying maintenance fees on you own points."
> 
> ...


I will take full responsibility for hijacking a few threads. Moving forward I will make a effort to stay on OP'S original question.


----------



## ecwinch (Jul 23, 2019)

dgalati said:


> I will take full responsibility for hijacking a few threads. Moving forward I will make a effort to stay on OP'S original question.



Dominic - thanks for making that effort. I would ask that all members make a similar effort to put this in the past. I think what started a legitimate disagreement has morphed into a running joke, and as happens with jokes - that joke has run it's course.


----------



## OutSkiing (Jul 24, 2019)

chapjim said:


> And besides, if there were no VIPs, there wouldn't be anybody to rent from!


And if there were no developer purchasers, there would be no resale contracts.  And in fact there would be no timeshares at all.

Bob


----------



## chapjim (Jul 25, 2019)

OutSkiing said:


> And if there were no developer purchasers, there would be no resale contracts.  And in fact there would be no timeshares at all.
> 
> Bob



We've gone full circle!


----------

