# Marriott renews I.I. internal trade affiliation



## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

March 11, 2010:

"Interval International, a prominent worldwide provider of vacation services and an operating segment of Interval Leisure Group, Inc. (Nasdaq: IILG), today announced the renewal of its master affiliation agreement with Marriott Vacation Club International, the timeshare division of Marriott International, Inc. (NYSE: MAR). The multi-year agreement extends the relationship first established in 1990 between two leaders in the shared ownership industry, each highly regarded for their commitment to quality, exemplary customer service, and innovation.

*Interval will continue to provide Marriott Vacation Club owners with both internal and external vacation exchange services*, as well as an array of other leisure programs and benefits that reinforce the value proposition of their purchase. *These include offering the option of trading their accommodations for a resort within the Marriott portfolio or from among the 2,500-plus resorts in Interval’s worldwide network.* In turn, other Interval members have the opportunity to exchange into Marriott Vacation Club’s beach, ski, golf, spa, and themed-entertainment resorts in internationally recognized vacation destinations........."

This seems to debunk the speculation that Marriott will be announcing an internal exchange system anytime soon.

Concerning the added speculation that the rumored internal exchange system will coincide with a rumored new points-based roll-out in June, I can confirm the following:

Marriott has just renewed the selective exercise of its ROFR prerogative. (The 16 month capital expenditure freeze appears to be thawing).
This week Marriott exercised its ROFR on two Summit Watch week 52
transactions. One at $40,000, the other at $45,000.
Rather than accumulate these weeks for a rumored points program, Marriott is selling. Published price is $85,000 ($68,000 after the temporary 20% discount).


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## rickandcindy23 (Mar 11, 2010)

I don't think this debunks the internal exchange program Marriott is planning.  I think II is the place resale owners are going to have to deposit their weeks, in order to get a good exchange in return.  I would bet Marriott owners will mostly use II for exchange and not use the internals system, but that is my take on it.  Marriott will implement an internal system of some kind, but resale buyers will be left in the cold.  

Marriott is exercising ROFR again?  That's too bad.  I was looking at some resales, so I guess I will stop.  We already own in Starwood.  I would love to stay at the Marriotts in Hawaii some day.


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## GregT (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm happy to see this news -- very intriguing that they've started to ROFR properties again.

I agree with Rick that II could co-exist with a points system, but I find the affirmation of the II relationship encouraging -- and that the system people are currently familiar with will remain in place.

Good luck to all,

Greg


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## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

GregT said:


> I'm happy to see this news -- very intriguing that they've started to ROFR properties again.
> 
> I agree with Rick that II could co-exist with a points system, but I find the affirmation of the II relationship encouraging -- and that the system people are currently familiar with will remain in place.
> 
> ...



Rick did not say that it could exist with a points program. He speculates that *resale *owners will be left out in the cold. 

While anything is possible, it seems to me that Marriott would not fragment its efforts.  Speculation can be fun. But,  I prefer to draw my conclusions from what is known, especially when they contradict the unsubstantiated rumor.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 11, 2010)

That answers my questions about when the existing affiliation between Marriott and II would be ending, and whether Marriott would renew it at all, as is, or amended to entice current owners to join a new points exchange system (if blah blah blah.)

I'm with Cindy here - this announcement doesn't mean that a new internal exchange points system is off the table completely.  (It could be, sure.)  But it does appear to mean that if Marriott rolls out their own option, owners who choose not to join and remain with II won't have to learn new rules.

The evidence of ROFR being exercised again is a very encouraging sign.  Without getting in to the whole "does ROFR prop up prices" thing, Fred's point about the credit freeze thawing should be the focus.  ROFR was the least of Marriott's (and the other big players') problems while they didn't have access to credit lines.

Good news all around.


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## dougp26364 (Mar 11, 2010)

Fredm said:


> March 11, 2010:
> 
> "Interval International, a prominent worldwide provider of vacation services and an operating segment of Interval Leisure Group, Inc. (Nasdaq: IILG), today announced the renewal of its master affiliation agreement with Marriott Vacation Club International, the timeshare division of Marriott International, Inc. (NYSE: MAR). The multi-year agreement extends the relationship first established in 1990 between two leaders in the shared ownership industry, each highly regarded for their commitment to quality, exemplary customer service, and innovation.
> 
> ...



It doesn't really debunk anything. Marriott considers their twenty-some day priority an internal exchange system, even though it's handled through I.I. 

What has been debated is the possibility that Marriott will introduce a new points based exchange system for both internal and external exchanges much like many other resort systems offer. I fear that debate will continue until Marriott actually does something. It's been going on now for two or three years without any action on Marriott's part aside from lip service by their salesmen.


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## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

dougp26364 said:


> It doesn't really debunk anything. Marriott considers their twenty-some day priority an internal exchange system, even though it's handled through I.I.
> 
> What has been debated is the possibility that Marriott will introduce a new points based exchange system for both internal and external exchanges much like many other resort systems offer. I fear that debate will continue until Marriott actually does something. It's been going on now for two or three years without any action on Marriott's part aside from lip service by their salesmen.



Exactly. Marriott has done absolutely nothing but continue what it has always done.


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## rickxylon (Mar 11, 2010)

How long is the agreement renewal period?


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## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

rickxylon said:


> How long is the agreement renewal period?



Don't know. The announcement only refers to a "multi-year agreement".


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## LAX Mom (Mar 11, 2010)

This announcement is good news!! Thanks for posting Fred.

I'm a huge fan of the Marriott timeshare properties, but I prefer trading with II. I wouldn't spend any additional $$ to convert to a points system with Marriot. I'm happy with II and I'll stick with their exchange program. In the future if it doesn't work for me anymore then I'll put my Marriott weeks (purchased resale) on ebay and sell them for whatever I can get.


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## pefs65 (Mar 11, 2010)

Fred:
I also find your post very encouraging.
Thanks for posting.


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## EducatedConsumer (Mar 11, 2010)

Fortunate that Marriott did not go the route that Disney Vacation Club did by affiliating with RCI.


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## m61376 (Mar 11, 2010)

This is very good news. True, it doesn't nix anything, but does make me wonder if my source was correct in saying that the points based system which was anticipated was basically being placed on an indefinite hold.

I am only guessing here, but I'm getting the impression that the Asia Pacific program has not been a resounding success. I wonder if anyone here has anything definitive about it. If I am correct, Marriott might be treading lightly before they ruin what is already a working system, albeit with some flaws. I am not saying there is not room for improvement, but what I am saying is there may be much more downside to changing the system than potential benefit.

Others are more knowledgeable about this than I am, but I wouldn't expect Marriott to be making public releases of its affiliation with II in what appears to be a press release or at least reads like one, if they were about to embark on its own competitive program. They certainly wouldn't issue a press release if the continued affiliation with II was primarily for resale owners, at least as far as the internal exchange program was concerned. I agree with Fred- it is far more likely that things will remain status quo in the short term.

Also, Cindy- to address the other part of your comment about being interested in a few Marriott resales- I wouldn't let ROFR affect my decision. Right now they are just starting to buy back some highly desirable premium weeks. The marketplace (an the lousy economy) will dictate prices for the foreseeable future, and it would take a long time before ROFR has any impact (if, it does have an impact- there is another thread which discusses that, so let's not go off on a tangent here).


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## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I am only guessing here, but I'm getting the impression that the Asia Pacific program has not been a resounding success. I wonder if anyone here has anything definitive about it. .



A little bit of background on the AP program might be helpful when discussing it as a model for the rumored system-wide point program.

About 12-13 years ago a former colleague was sent to the Philippines to expand MVCI's sales program in Asia (I was employed by MVCI for some years). 
At the time Marriott was not having much success selling its product in that part of the world.
Long story short, Asians did not travel recreation-ally in weekly intervals much, nor far from home.  So, a limited number of Asian hotels were identified for a points based 'ownership" program. Later, an obvious expansion included Phuket, and later yet Hawaii was added (as it was a destination for a growing number of Asians).
Most recently, Phuket owners were offered a points "overlay" to their existing ownership. 

Importantly, the AP program was (and remains) a one way street. That is, only AP program participants can avail themselves of it. AP owners can elect the Hawaii resorts, but Hawaii owners cannot exchange into the AP program.

IMO, it is a poor model for system-wide use. Not because it has not been successful. It has. But, it has in relation to what was otherwise not attractive to the Asian market.

I do not intend to imply that Marriott will not ever introduce a points based program system-wide. I do not know. Neither does anyone else around here. 

It just seems to me to be grasping at unrelated straws, fed by nothing more than unsubstantiated rumor in the first place.

I can say one thing with some certainty. Rumors and off hand comments by Marriott salespeople are the worst source of information.  Marriott sales execs are the very last to be informed of product introductions, lest they make statements that are not yet, if ever, fact.  In my personal first hand experience, new products, new prices, new anything, are announced to the sales force at the morning sales meeting the very day it becomes effective (usually a Saturday).


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## James1975NY (Mar 11, 2010)

Fredm said:


> I can say one thing with some certainty. Rumors and off hand comments by Marriott salespeople are the worst source of information.  Marriott sales execs are the very last to be informed of product introductions, lest they make statements that are not yet, if ever, fact.  In my personal first hand experience, new products, new prices, new anything, are announced to the sales force at the morning sale meeting the very day it becomes effective (usually a Saturday).



Fred, you have my full support with these statements. It is very common that the front line sales rep is not privy to any *factual* information on change until the last minute. Although information tends to leak, it is a liability to the developer to be selling anything based on future changes or proposed changes and they want to avoid that at all costs.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Fredm said:


> ... "Interval International, a prominent worldwide provider of vacation services and an operating segment of Interval Leisure Group, Inc. (Nasdaq: IILG), today announced the renewal of its master affiliation agreement with Marriott Vacation Club International, the timeshare division of Marriott International, Inc. (NYSE: MAR). The multi-year agreement extends the relationship first established in 1990 between two leaders in the shared ownership industry, each highly regarded for their commitment to quality, exemplary customer service, and innovation.
> 
> *Interval will continue to provide Marriott Vacation Club owners with both internal and external vacation exchange services*, as well as an array of other leisure programs and benefits that reinforce the value proposition of their purchase. *These include offering the option of trading their accommodations for a resort within the Marriott portfolio or from among the 2,500-plus resorts in Interval’s worldwide network.* In turn, other Interval members have the opportunity to exchange into Marriott Vacation Club’s beach, ski, golf, spa, and themed-entertainment resorts in internationally recognized vacation destinations........."
> 
> This seems to debunk the speculation that Marriott will be announcing an internal exchange system anytime soon. ...





m61376 said:


> ... I wouldn't expect Marriott to be making public releases of its affiliation with II in what appears to be a press release or at least reads like one, if they were about to embark on its own competitive program. They certainly wouldn't issue a press release if the continued affiliation with II was primarily for resale owners, at least as far as the internal exchange program was concerned. I agree with Fred- it is far more likely that things will remain status quo in the short term. ...



But this isn't a notice from Marriott at all.  It's a press release from II, what looks like SOP whenever new/renewed affiliations between companies are announced.  The Marriott/II affiliation hasn't ever been a permanent partnership; probably similar notices were given every time the mutual contract has been renewed.

Hasn't all of our speculation about a new Marriott internal exchange points system always included a presumption that II (or another exchange company) would still be available to those owners who choose not to join?  IMO, this II notice doesn't introduce anything different to the speculation.


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## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> But this isn't a notice from Marriott at all.  It's a press release from II, what looks like SOP whenever new/renewed affiliations between companies are announced.  The Marriott/II affiliation hasn't ever been a permanent partnership; probably similar notices were given every time the mutual contract has been renewed.
> 
> Hasn't all of our speculation about a new Marriott internal exchange points system always included a presumption that II (or another exchange company) would still be available to those owners who choose not to join?  IMO, this II notice doesn't introduce anything different to the speculation.



Yes, but it does refer to the continued use of I.I. for Marriott's internal exchanges.
If Marriott was launching a new internal exchange system, with or without the introduction of a points based product, why would they fragment the effort by retaining I.I. for internal exchanges? 

Of course, Marriott can wind up doing anything. 
But, EVERYTHING thus far has been unsubstantiated rumor. 
One can argue that there are ways for the rumors to nonetheless be consistent in a convoluted way with this fact. 
My point is that this takes considerable wind out of the sails of the rumor. That's all.


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## thinze3 (Mar 11, 2010)

Here it is on MarketWatch.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/in...-term-renewal-2010-03-10?reflink=MW_news_stmp

Both presidents are quoted.


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## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

thinze3 said:


> Here it is on MarketWatch.
> 
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/in...-term-renewal-2010-03-10?reflink=MW_news_stmp
> 
> Both presidents are quoted.



Yep, title reads "long term renewal". 
Whatever long term means. 
I think prior affiliation terms were for 10 years ( but the announcement does not specify).


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## SueDonJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Yes, but it does refer to the continued use of I.I. for Marriott's internal exchanges.
> If Marriott was launching a new internal exchange system, with or without the introduction of a points based product, why would they fragment the effort by retaining I.I. for internal exchanges?



It's what Doug pointed out up above - there has always been a Marriott-to-Marriott 21-day internal preference wthin II's system.  That it's continuing only means that if they roll out a new system, those who choose to not join will still have that Marriott preference in II.  I think it's a smart move, actually, if they do plan on rolling out the rumored system - it will prevent owners who don't like Marriott's new product from complaining that everything in II has changed.  I dunno, it's a thought.  



Fredm said:


> Of course, Marriott can wind up doing anything.
> But, EVERYTHING thus far has been unsubstantiated rumor.
> One can argue that there are ways for the rumors to nonetheless be consistent in a convoluted way with this fact.
> My point is that this takes considerable wind out of the sails of the rumor. That's all.



No disagreement at all about the unsubstantiated rumors - nothing has been confirmed or denied by Marriott.  But I do disagree that this notice should curb the speculation - looks to me like it has nothing to do with an internal exchange product offered by Marriott, and everything to do with the contract between Marriott and II being up for renewal.  That's all.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 11, 2010)

thinze3 said:


> Here it is on MarketWatch.
> 
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/in...-term-renewal-2010-03-10?reflink=MW_news_stmp
> 
> Both presidents are quoted.



>>"Interval has played an integral part in helping fulfill Marriott's brand promise. For 20 years, we have created memorable vacations together and exceeded owners' expectations," said Stephen P. Weisz, president of Marriott Vacation Club International. "We look forward to continuing our partnership with the Interval team *and introducing exciting innovations that will further enhance our owners' experiences*."<<

Very interesting.


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## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

Good night, Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are!


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## m61376 (Mar 11, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> >>"Interval has played an integral part in helping fulfill Marriott's brand promise. For 20 years, we have created memorable vacations together and exceeded owners' expectations," said Stephen P. Weisz, president of Marriott Vacation Club International. "We look forward to continuing our partnership with the Interval team *and introducing exciting innovations that will further enhance our owners' experiences*."<<
> 
> Very interesting.



I wondered about that too when I read it. But, in reality, it is one of those meaningless statements that companies make, and I don't know that it inferences anything. 

True, it can be hinting at the points system that has received so much speculation, or it can be hinting at a new toilet paper provider- or anything one can imagine. Companies are always promoting "exciting new innovations" or similar rhetoric.

Regardless of whether this does or does not reflect any decision wrt a points based internal trading system, it is reassuring that Marriott is committed to continuing the current internal trading system with II. Resale or developer purchase, IF Marriott's program is a trust based points system like the Asia Pacific program and IF it carries a high price tag, etc., many owners may choose to retain their home resort advantage and weekly trading via II, and I, for one, am happy that Marirott is committed to continuing this option.


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## littlestar (Mar 11, 2010)

EducatedConsumer said:


> Fortunate that Marriott did not go the route that Disney Vacation Club did by affiliating with RCI.



I agree.  Marriott Cypress Harbour is considered a non-rated resort with RCI - ridiculous. I'd rather stay there than any other resort in Orlando. 

Many DVC members were very disappointed when DVC left II - especially because of losing Marriott and Westin on Maui, Harborside Atlantis, and most of the Royals in Cancun.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 11, 2010)

m61376 said:


> ... Regardless of whether this does or does not reflect any decision wrt a points based internal trading system, it is reassuring that Marriott is committed to continuing the current internal trading system with II. Resale or developer purchase, IF Marriott's program is a trust based points system like the Asia Pacific program and IF it carries a high price tag, etc., many owners may choose to retain their home resort advantage and weekly trading via II, and I, for one, am happy that Marirott is committed to continuing this option.



Completely agree.


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## Twinkstarr (Mar 11, 2010)

littlestar said:


> I agree.  Marriott Cypress Harbour is considered a non-rated resort with RCI - ridiculous. I'd rather stay there than any other resort in Orlando.
> 
> Many DVC members were very disappointed when DVC left II - especially because of losing Marriott and Westin on Maui, Harborside Atlantis, and most of the Royals in Cancun.



Do you know of any DVC'er getting a trade into Harborside? I know the other ones were yes. 

I know a threads on Harborside  used to come up on a rather regular basis on the DIS. 

Smuggler's Notch in VT seems to be the most talked about RCI resort on DIS.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 11, 2010)

littlestar said:


> I agree.  Marriott Cypress Harbour is considered a non-rated resort with RCI - ridiculous. I'd rather stay there than any other resort in Orlando.
> 
> Many DVC members were very disappointed when DVC left II - especially because of losing Marriott and Westin on Maui, Harborside Atlantis, and most of the Royals in Cancun.



Many Marriott owners were very disappointed when DVC left II!  I was one of them, had an ongoing request in for the following October at the time.  That was a sad, sad day.


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## littlestar (Mar 11, 2010)

Twinkstarr said:


> Do you know of any DVC'er getting a trade into Harborside? I know the other ones were yes.
> 
> I know a threads on Harborside  used to come up on a rather regular basis on the DIS.
> 
> Smuggler's Notch in VT seems to be the most talked about RCI resort on DIS.



Yeah, I saw some posts on matches. It was almost always one bedroom units and usually September through November or January.  Probably had more chance of grabbing one during a bulk bank, too, I would imagine.  

The matches I read about for Maui Marriott's or Westin's were usually off season weeks. Although it seemed the studio lock-off's were more common to match in higher seasons - probably because most II timeshare exchangers want at least a one bedroom or larger. 

I'm thrilled Marriott is staying with II.  I've been very happy with Interval.


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## thinze3 (Mar 11, 2010)

*Now that II is locked in ...*

I like the fact that the article confirms that there are more than 400,000 MVCI owners at 52 resorts! Even if/when Marriott rolls out its new points system, there will still be plenty of weeks owners to trade with.


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## winger (Mar 11, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Many Marriott owners were very disappointed when DVC left II!  I was one of them, had an ongoing request in for the following October at the time.  That was a sad, sad day.


Sue - with my kids now 8 and 6, I was waiting for the opportune time to try Orlando, the DVC way!  So, I was very bummed too with the DVC move, to say the least.  So, we are now going to settle for an *annual pass* for Disneyland (in Anaheim) starting this November, instead.

What is sort of funny (in a sarcastic way, I guess), I actually called II to ask about the DVC move I think two days prior to the official announcement b/c I heard rumors (I think here on TUG).  The cust service rep (not the group the takes the calls and does the reservation for us, but the one in the actual higher up dept, I think it is called "Customer Relations") told me nothing like that will be happening anytime soon.


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## Transit (Mar 11, 2010)

Just stating the obvious but Starwood,Hyatt,HGVC,Disney are all affiliated with external exchange companies but still have internal point systems.


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## brigechols (Mar 11, 2010)

EducatedConsumer said:


> Fortunate that Marriott did not go the route that Disney Vacation Club did by affiliating with RCI.



Amen to that!


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## m61376 (Mar 11, 2010)

Transit said:


> Just stating the obvious but Starwood,Hyatt,HGVC,Disney are all affiliated with external exchange companies but still have internal point systems.



The interesting part of the announcement was the reference to II providing internal exchanges. The other systems primarily rely on II (or RCI) only for external exchanges and, for the most part, internal exchanges are done via their points system (excluding Starwood voluntary resort resale owners)


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## Clark (Mar 11, 2010)

heh heh maybe they realized they couldnt compete with ******.com pricing


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## Transit (Mar 11, 2010)

m61376 said:


> The interesting part of the announcement was the reference to II providing internal exchanges. The other systems primarily rely on II (or RCI) only for external exchanges and, for the most part, internal exchanges are done via their points system (excluding Starwood voluntary resort resale owners)



I would consider the reference to Marriott's internal exchanges to what exists now.External to mean other than Marriott resorts.There is no proof that a points system is being rolled out but this to me *doesn't debunk a new points system*.


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## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

Transit said:


> Just stating the obvious but Starwood,Hyatt,HGVC,Disney are all affiliated with external exchange companies but still have internal point systems.



Yes they do. None of them use I.I. as their internal exchange as Marriott does, however.


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## Transit (Mar 11, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Yes they do. None of them use I.I. as their internal exchange as Marriott does, however.



If a new points system is rolled out couldn't it be an overlay leaving everything else intact.


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## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

Transit said:


> If a new points system is rolled out couldn't it be an overlay leaving everything else intact.



No. A points overlay needs inventory.
Either there is an internal exchange system in place, operated by Marriott, or there is not.

It has been reasonable to speculate that Marriott was going to convert to self operated internal exchange. 

The joint announcement made today by I.I. and Marriott states that the 20 year system of *internal* exchange for Marriott timeshares will continue to be via  I.I. 
The statement did not simply announce that an affiliation agreement has been renewed. It conspicuously referenced *internal exchange*, not once, but twice. 

Does this preclude Marriott from implementing something different at a future time? 
Of course not.  But, the only hooks left to hang the rumors on are air hooks. 

I repeat. Either Marriott operates an internal exchange (with or without a points program) or it does not. Nothing else makes any sense to me.

Now, I may be completely wrong. But, I have something to point to.
The rumor mill has zero.


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## Transit (Mar 11, 2010)

Big win for II .If they had lost Marriott like they did DVC they would be in for some rough times.
Thinking about it. II must have sold their souls to keep Marriott aboard. Maybe the Whole internal trade leak was a ploy to get a killer contract with II.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Fredm said:


> ... I repeat. Either Marriott operates an internal exchange (with or without a points program) or it does not. Nothing else makes any sense to me. ...



It's true; we all understand that all the talk about Marriott rolling out a new points-based internal exchange system is speculation, and none of the rumors from any of the Marriott employees who have leaked info (not all salespeople, btw) have been confirmed.  But what I don't understand is why anyone would think that this press release today effectively puts an end to any speculation.  It's simply a statement that they're continuing the affiliation they've had for years, as is.  Nothing is different.

Wasn't this part of the continuing speculation, that owners could continue with II if they didn't like the new system offered/operated by Marriott?  If the speculation had any validity before we knew that the Marriott/II affiliation was up for renewal, why does the renewal mean that what's been speculated is now off the table?  I'm just not getting why you think extra emphasis should be paid to the mention in that release of Marriott internal exchanges in II.  That Marriott-to-Marriott preference in II simply isn't anything new.

Why doesn't it make sense for Marriott to offer a choice to owners?  We could join the new points-based Marriott-operated internal exchange system or stay with the familiar weeks-based II-operated system which provides a preference for Marriott-to-Marriott exchanges.  They're different animals altogether, and the existence of one doesn't automatically preclude the other.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 11, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> It's true; we all understand that all the talk about Marriott rolling out a new points-based internal exchange system is speculation, and none of the rumors from any of the Marriott employees who have leaked info (not all salespeople, btw) have been confirmed.



I am not sure who we have heard this rumor from that wasn't a sales person. Dave passed on the rumor, we don't know the source. Fletch talked about it, a former Marriott sales person. It has been heard from many a sales person at presentations. Perhaps you can indicate where we heard this that wasn't from some person affiliated with sales.


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## dioxide45 (Mar 11, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Marriott has just renewed the selective exercise of its ROFR prerogative. (The 16 month capital expenditure freeze appears to be thawing).
> This week Marriott exercised its ROFR on two Summit Watch week 52
> transactions. One at $40,000, the other at $45,000.
> Rather than accumulate these weeks for a rumored points program, Marriott is selling. Published price is $85,000 ($68,000 after the temporary 20% discount).



I don't think this is any kind of indication of Marriott beginning to exercise ROFR long term. The resort and weeks they exercised on are very high season. These don't come up for sale very often. They likely had someone on a waiting list wanting to by this resort and week. This means an immediate sale flip.


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## Fredm (Mar 11, 2010)

Transit said:


> . Maybe the Whole internal trade leak was a ploy to get a killer contract with II.



What internal trade leak?


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## dioxide45 (Mar 11, 2010)

Fredm said:


> What internal trade leak?



You been living under a rock?


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## SueDonJ (Mar 11, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure who we have heard this rumor from that wasn't a sales person. Dave passed on the rumor, we don't know the source. Fletch talked about it, a former Marriott sales person. It has been heard from many a sales person at presentations. Perhaps you can indicate where we heard this that wasn't from some person affiliated with sales.



In one of Dave's posts from an earlier thread, here, where he says that the "... supposition that no non-sales higher-up hasn't disclosed info about the program is incorrect."


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## zcrider (Mar 11, 2010)

*new rumor*

OK, 
  Just to toss out a new rumor.  I was on the phone with a Marriott rep. from the modifications department yesterday and asked if she knew if they were planning to go to an internal points system soon.  Her response to me was:  Well in order to do that you have to be licensed to be a exchange company and there has been lots of talk about going in that direction for a long time now, but Marriott still is not gotten that lincense. 
    So, that doesn't mean the talk is off the table by any means and I don't even know if this rep. was correct about needing an exchange company lincense or not??  But looks like whatever it is might not be as close as we think possibly???  Just my guess, but I guess a lincense could be recieved at any given point.  But hearing this along with the II renewal at the same terms as always makes me think that Marriott hasn't figured out the perfect system yet and isn't going to jump in and change things up until they can iron out all the kinks and that hasn't been done yet.  (Good for all of us since we all seem happy with the system like it is).
  I am interested in hearing what others think.


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## taffy19 (Mar 11, 2010)

Fredm said:


> A little bit of background on the AP program might be helpful when discussing it as a model for the rumored system-wide point program.
> 
> About 12-13 years ago a former colleague was sent to the Philippines to expand MVCI's sales program in Asia (I was employed by MVCI for some years).
> At the time Marriott was not having much success selling its product in that part of the world.
> ...


This is exactly what we were told when we asked our sales lady and higher up too. I heard the rumor from a person who was no longer a salesman but was still working for the MVCI but he couldn't give much detail or he didn't want to. He was worried too because some of his buyers had bought re-sale so he was worried about the consequences too, if there are any. I doubt it.

Marriott better had a good look at how dissatisfied some of the owners are at Starwood and not make that same mistake. They need all the goodwill they can get in this economy but I was surprised to read that they started exercising the ROFR again at Summit Watch so the worst may be over for the prime properties and seasons.


----------



## CMF (Mar 12, 2010)

zcrider said:


> OK,
> Just to toss out a new rumor.  I was on the phone with a Marriott rep. from the modifications department yesterday and asked if she knew if they were planning to go to an internal points system soon.  Her response to me was:  Well in order to do that you have to be licensed to be a exchange company and there has been lots of talk about going in that direction for a long time now, but Marriott still is not gotten that lincense.
> So, that doesn't mean the talk is off the table by any means and I don't even know if this rep. was correct about needing an exchange company lincense or not??  But looks like whatever it is might not be as close as we think possibly???  Just my guess, but I guess a lincense could be recieved at any given point.  But hearing this along with the II renewal at the same terms as always makes me think that Marriott hasn't figured out the perfect system yet and isn't going to jump in and change things up until they can iron out all the kinks and that hasn't been done yet.  (Good for all of us since we all seem happy with the system like it is).
> I am interested in hearing what others think.




Then, of course, M could have contracted with II to have them run the internal exchange system for M.  Marriott gets the point conversion fee, and II runs the system for beans in fear that M would pull a big chunk of weeks from II trading.  M does not have to worry about the expense of reinventing the wheel.

Charles


----------



## dioxide45 (Mar 12, 2010)

zcrider said:


> OK,
> Just to toss out a new rumor.  I was on the phone with a Marriott rep. from the modifications department yesterday and asked if she knew if they were planning to go to an internal points system soon.  Her response to me was:  Well in order to do that you have to be licensed to be a exchange company and there has been lots of talk about going in that direction for a long time now, but Marriott still is not gotten that lincense.
> So, that doesn't mean the talk is off the table by any means and I don't even know if this rep. was correct about needing an exchange company lincense or not??  But looks like whatever it is might not be as close as we think possibly???  Just my guess, but I guess a lincense could be recieved at any given point.  But hearing this along with the II renewal at the same terms as always makes me think that Marriott hasn't figured out the perfect system yet and isn't going to jump in and change things up until they can iron out all the kinks and that hasn't been done yet.  (Good for all of us since we all seem happy with the system like it is).
> I am interested in hearing what others think.



Where would they get that kind of license? Who even regulates this sort of thing?


----------



## m61376 (Mar 12, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure who we have heard this rumor from that wasn't a sales person. Dave passed on the rumor, we don't know the source. Fletch talked about it, a former Marriott sales person. It has been heard from many a sales person at presentations. Perhaps you can indicate where we heard this that wasn't from some person affiliated with sales.



Whether or not it is fact or not I certainly have no way or knowing, but the person who indicated to me that the whole points program was basically put on hold was not a salesperson. That doesn't mean that he is any more knowledgeable than Fletch or Dave's contact, just from somewhere else on the Marriott food chain.

At any extent, IF Marriott was going to start this program come June, I'd expect an announcement imminently, to get the hype going. Instead, this is the announcement that's being made. Sometimes timing is everything...and it's consistent with what I was told. Time will tell....


----------



## m61376 (Mar 12, 2010)

iconnections said:


> This is exactly what we were told when we asked our sales lady and higher up too. I heard the rumor from a person who was no longer a salesman but was still working for the MVCI but he couldn't give much detail or he didn't want to. He was worried too because some of his buyers had bought re-sale so he was worried about the consequences too, if there are any. I doubt it.
> 
> Marriott better had a good look at how dissatisfied some of the owners are at Starwood and not make that same mistake. They need all the goodwill they can get in this economy but I was surprised to read that they started exercising the ROFR again at Summit Watch so the worst may be over for the prime properties and seasons.



I am glad that someone else is emphasizing the importance of goodwill. Just because Marriott can do certain things doesn't mean they should, or that they will. Like you, I think Marriott has to tread very lightly in this economy. 

It is very hard to get a good reputation and very easy to lose it. If it's lost, sometimes it's impossible to regain.


----------



## Clark (Mar 12, 2010)

zcrider said:


> OK,
> Well in order to do that you have to be licensed to be a exchange company and there has been lots of talk about going in that direction for a long time now, but Marriott still is not gotten that lincense.



Exchange Company License?? 

There are only a handful of exchange companies in existence. How could they possibly have attracted enough attention to have caused some Exchange Company licensing requirement to be put into law?

That has the ring of true baloney.


----------



## m61376 (Mar 12, 2010)

Clark said:


> Exchange Company License??
> 
> There are only a handful of exchange companies in existence. How could they possibly have attracted enough attention to have caused some Exchange Company licensing requirement to be put into law?
> 
> That has the ring of true baloney.



Could there be regulations in certain states requiring licensing for the trade of deeded property? Even though there are only a few exchange companies, I can envision that state requirements may vary and there may be some licensing that is either hard or too restrictive to obtain.


----------



## Fredm (Mar 12, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> You been living under a rock?



No, not under a rock. I live in daylight.

A 'leak' would be "verifiable information". The source may wish to remain anonymous, but the information must be factual. 
Thus far, this discussion has been powered by unsubstantiated rumor. 

So, I ask again, what leak?


----------



## kjd (Mar 12, 2010)

Let's face it.  Marriott could probably buy I.I. anytime they want to with some of their loose change.  Maybe they will in order to be licensed and secure a knowledgeable trading staff.  They can still offer an internal trading system with or without I.I. if it meets Marriott's business plan objectives. In the long run this terrible timeshare market is to their advantage if it flushes out several of their weaker competitors.  

The ROFR news is interesting because many on this board are sure that ROFR doesn't affect prices.  Or does it?  This kind of news will only stimulate more buying by those that want to buy because of the uncertainty of even lower resale prices.  Since ROFR only affects Marriott resales we will see if Marriott resale prices climb while others do not.  

It is probably a good time for Marriott to make this announcement but after all it's still a rumor.


----------



## Fredm (Mar 12, 2010)

m61376 said:


> I am glad that someone else is emphasizing the importance of goodwill. Just because Marriott can do certain things doesn't mean they should, or that they will. Like you, I think Marriott has to tread very lightly in this economy.
> 
> It is very hard to get a good reputation and very easy to lose it. If it's lost, sometimes it's impossible to regain.



Absolutely!


----------



## thinze3 (Mar 12, 2010)

kjd said:


> Let's face it.  *Marriott could probably buy I.I.* anytime they want to with some of their loose change.  Maybe they will in order to be licensed and secure a knowledgeable trading staff.  They can still offer an internal trading system with or without I.I. if it meets Marriott's business plan objectives. In the long run this terrible timeshare market is to their advantage if it flushes out several of their weaker competitors.
> 
> The ROFR news is interesting because many on this board are sure that ROFR doesn't affect prices.  Or does it?  This kind of news will only stimulate more buying by those that want to buy because of the uncertainty of even lower resale prices.  Since ROFR only affects Marriott resales we will see if Marriott resale prices climb while others do not.
> 
> It is probably a good time for Marriott to make this announcement but after all it's still a rumor.




umm ... Marriott used to own II.

As far as ROFR, if the economy is starting to bounce back, prices will go up with or without ROFR.  BUT ... I am glad to see that Marriott is at least exercising their rights on some units, even if it is because they have a buyer in the waiting.


----------



## SueDonJ (Mar 12, 2010)

thinze3 said:


> ... As far as ROFR, if the economy is starting to bounce back, prices will go up with or without ROFR.  BUT ... I am glad to see that Marriott is at least exercising their rights on some units, even if it is because they have a buyer in the waiting.



I like hearing about exercised ROFR because of what Fred mentioned, that maybe it means the credit freeze is thawing.  Combine it with the info in that thread about Kauai Lagoons and maybe we can cautiously assume that Marriott's timeshare business is on the upswing (or at least has bottomed out?)


----------



## thinze3 (Mar 12, 2010)

*Dave told you that II would still handle the trades 3 years ago!*

Does this old post by Dave M from June 2007 sound familiar?


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## Fredm (Mar 12, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> In one of Dave's posts from an earlier thread, here, where he says that the "... supposition that no non-sales higher-up hasn't disclosed info about the program is incorrect."



Dave's source may have had information at the time that was accurate.

It was also reasonable to speculate that Marriott would consider a self operated internal exchange system (although I thought it a bad move, personally).

For those reasons, I have stayed out of these discussions. 
But, yesterday's announcement changed all that.

Point systems need inventory. Lots of it. 
It makes no sense whatsoever for a behemoth like Marriott to implement any system in a half-ass manner. 
Either they control the internal trade inventory., or they do not.
Giving 400,000 existing owners the continued ability to trade internally using I.I. (as has always been done) is inconsistent with the successful launch of any other program requiring inventory.

Hilton, Hyatt, Starwood, etc, have internal exchange systems. They 
absolutely control the inventory for internal exchange. Their affiliation 
with I.I. and RCI is for external exchange.

So, yesterday's announcement changed my mind about the possibility the rumors would come to pass anytime in the foreseeable future.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 12, 2010)

m61376 said:


> ... At any extent, IF Marriott was going to start this program come June, I'd expect an announcement imminently, to get the hype going.





kjd said:


> ... It is probably a good time for Marriott to make this announcement but after all it's still a rumor.



When have we ever received official advance notice about any new or existing Marriott products/services prior to implementation?  Think about it - they haven't announced new resorts until all the permitting and legal paperwork has been in place, they haven't announced MRP "enhancements" until just prior to rollout, their AP points conversion system was simultaneously announced and implemented, recent hotel/resort category changes were announced just days in advance (and that was from MarriottConcierge on flyertalk, not a press release,) they didn't announce last year's discount pricing and development suspension until after the fact ...

We won't get anything that states officially, "Marriott announced today that three months from now blah blah blah..."  That's just how it is in the business.  Look at Winger's post here about Disney not answering the question about separating with II just days before it happened.

A new points-based internal exchange system is either going to be announced to be effective immediately, or we'll hear nothing at all.  And that has nothing to do with good or bad customer service, it's just good business sense.


----------



## Swice (Mar 12, 2010)

*OK- count me in*

Count me in the camp that's putting my bets on Marriott using II to manage both the old "weeks" system and the new "points" system.

Thinking out loud:     

If Interval had units (space) available deposited by points... couldn't it, at some point, let a "week" owner have that space.    

Common sense tells me if a "week" unit is sitting there un-used and a "points" person wants to use it for four days... couldn't Interval allow the trade?

Just appears that would be an efficient use of resources if Interval could manage both week and points inventory????


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## SueDonJ (Mar 12, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Dave's source may have had information at the time that was accurate.
> 
> It was also reasonable to speculate that Marriott would consider a self operated internal exchange system (although I thought it a bad move, personally).
> 
> ...



That's one way of looking at it.  Another way is that yesterday's announcement simply means that the existing Marriott/II affiliation will continue as is regardless of whether or not Marriott rolls out a new points-based internal exchange system.

With 400,000 existing customers, I think there's inventory enough to support both a new system from Marriott and II's existing system.  Some ideas that have been contributed to all of these TUG discussions lead me to believe that it is possible for Marriott to develop a system in which enough owners see value in it and join, enough to support Marriott's revenue-generating reason for considering it.  Those who don't see value can stay with II.  Thinking positively, isn't there a possibility that we could have the best of both worlds?

If, when, how ... it all makes for very interesting discussion, IMO.


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## Fredm (Mar 12, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Some ideas that have been contributed to all of these TUG discussions lead me to believe that it is possible for Marriott to develop a system in which enough owners see value in it and join, enough to support Marriott's revenue-generating reason for considering it.  Those who don't see value can stay with II.  Thinking positively, isn't there a possibility that we could have the best of both worlds?



Anything is possible. 
IMO, there is no such thing as the best of both worlds when dealing with inventory. Implementing a point system while leaving the current mechanism in place only assures that both systems will be compromised. Then, everyone will be up in arms. A recipe for disaster.

Now that we know the current internal exchange system will remain in place, Marriott would have to be nuts to take the step you suggest. 
Of course, that does not mean they won't be stupid. Just very unlikely.


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## kjd (Mar 12, 2010)

Interval International claims to have been doing business for 33 years.  After renewing what II calls a MASTER AFFILIATION AGREEMENT II said this": "We have worked collaboratively with Marriott for the past two decades on ground-breaking initiatives that have been instrumental in the growth of both businesses and of the vacation ownership industry," said Craig M. Nash, chairman, president, and chief executive officer of Interval Leisure Group, parent company of Interval International.

"Interval has played an integral part in helping fulfill Marriott's brand promise. For 20 years, we have created memorable vacations together and exceeded owners' expectations," said Stephen P. Weisz, president of Marriott Vacation Club International. 

In 2008 II was spun off from IAC/Interactive Group which is principally owned and operated by communications investment mogul Barry Diller.  This was the release from the company at that time: 

MIAMI, Aug. 21, 2008 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Interval Leisure Group (ILG) (Nasdaq:IILG), a leading global provider of membership and leisure services to consumers and business-to-business customers in the vacation industry, today announced the completion of its spin-off from IAC/InterActiveCorp. The newly independent public company will begin trading today on The Nasdaq Stock Market under the symbol IILG. 

I don't know when in the past Marriott supposedly owned II.  If there was any Marriott ownership it must have been long ago and rather irrelevant to today's timeshare world.  The importance of all of this is to suggest that Marriott and II have strong historical ties and therefore makes it less likely that Marriott would summarily sever ties with II in order to implement a new trading system.  More likely, resale owners can rest assured that II will be involved in any system regardless of what rumors are circulated.  

There is also the idea that when you have publicly traded stock, someone else can buy it.  Marriott?


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## SueDonJ (Mar 12, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Anything is possible.
> IMO, there is no such think as the best of both worlds when dealing with inventory. Implementing a point system while leaving the current mechanism in place only assures that both systems will be compromised. Then, everyone will be up in arms. A recipe for disaster.
> 
> Now that we know the current internal exchange system will remain in place, Marriott would have to be nuts to take the step you suggest.
> Of course, that does not mean they won't be stupid. Just very unlikely.



Stupid?  I guess I just don't understand why whenever the subject has been discussed, nobody has ever used as an argument against it, "As long as Marriott is still affiliated with II as is, a points-based internal exchange system will be a stupid idea and won't happen."

In all the speculation there's been lots of talk about how Marriott would have to be watched closely so that weeks inventory which is deposited isn't taken by Marriott for the points system, and so that they don't copy all of Starwood's mistakes, and lots of other logistical questions, but no one has flat-out said that two systems can't co-exist.  You think so, obviously, but not everyone does.  In fact, some folks did flat-out say that Marriott would be stupid, would be making a very bad business and customer service decision, if they DON'T give owners who don't like the rumored points system the option of staying with II as is.

Different strokes, I guess.


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## m61376 (Mar 12, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> When have we ever received official advance notice about any new or existing Marriott products/services prior to implementation?  Think about it - they haven't announced new resorts until all the permitting and legal paperwork has been in place, they haven't announced MRP "enhancements" until just prior to rollout, their AP points conversion system was simultaneously announced and implemented, recent hotel/resort category changes were announced just days in advance (and that was from MarriottConcierge on flyertalk, not a press release,) they didn't announce last year's discount pricing and development suspension until after the fact ...



Maybe I am remembering wrong, but I thought the point devaluations and the changes in categories were announced last year several months before implementation (I am not referring to the most recent category changes), with the "as of..." for prior warning. People had time to buy under the old rules and older travel certificates were honored for a period of time. There have been press releases announcing new resorts long before sales were initiated (generally the press releases will have the date that sales will begin and the anticipated opening). So, in reality, announcements are made about a future product prior to its inception. 

It would make sense to me that Marriott would, if they were going to introduce a new system, announce it beforehand so that they'd have people clamoring to participate as soon as it was available.


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## thinze3 (Mar 12, 2010)

I think Fred is right about the inventory issues. During this slow economy, it will be hard to sell enough new units and convert existing units to be self supported. The only way it could get off to a fast start would be to bring II into the mix for added inventory AND to offer an incredible "early bird offer" where existing owners could buy in for a limited time at a very cheap price. IMO


PS - For those potential Marriott resale buyers who have been sitting on the fence, you'd better get off.


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## Pit (Mar 12, 2010)

"Internal exchange" is just another name for a reservation. Suppose Marriott charges owners to join an "exchange" system wherein they can use their owned week, or alternatively, forfeit usage for an allocation of points. Owners then go shopping with their points for internal exchanges (aka reservations) at hotel and timeshare properties. Owners still have the options to occupy, rent, or deposit with II. However, they have the additional option of "internal exchange" (for a fee).

Of course, this amounts to little more than the current points option by another name. But, it would include retail and resale owners alike and result in more TS inventory for Marriott rentals (they have the pick of the litter for floating weeks). Marriott profits from initiation fees, "exchange" fees, added availability and quality of rentals, and the ability to devalue points as time goes on. Meanwhile, owners continue to pay the maintenance and operating expenses.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 12, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Maybe I am remembering wrong, but I thought the point devaluations and the changes in categories were announced last year several months before implementation (I am not referring to the most recent category changes), with the "as of..." for prior warning. People had time to buy under the old rules and older travel certificates were honored for a period of time. There have been press releases announcing new resorts long before sales were initiated (generally the press releases will have the date that sales will begin and the anticipated opening). So, in reality, announcements are made about a future product prior to its inception.
> 
> It would make sense to me that Marriott would, if they were going to introduce a new system, announce it beforehand so that they'd have people clamoring to participate as soon as it was available.



You're right, a wayback time machine search on TUG shows that the Jan2009 MRP major devaluation was announced in Oct2008 (although there were several revisions that were announced after Jan2009 for immediate implementation, including the 5-night travel packages exclusive to MVCI owners.)

As far as new resorts, announcements are made prior to construction and/or sales but only after Marriott has committed to the project and the legalities are all in place.

A major factor to consider is how any official announcement will impact the company stock.  If a new exchange system can be looked at by the industry as a positive customer benefit, which I think it could if a system such as Pit's post above is rolled out, we could hear about it as soon as they've committed to it but prior to its implementation.

See?  I learn something new every day in these discussions.


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## sdtugger (Mar 12, 2010)

Swice said:


> Count me in the camp that's putting my bets on Marriott using II to manage both the old "weeks" system and the new "points" system.
> 
> Thinking out loud:
> 
> ...



Hhmmm.  You may be onto something.  The big problem that many have seen and mentioned before in these threads is the problem with splitting inventory.  It just seems crazy to me to intentionally create a system where inventory (particularly prized week inventory) is split into two separate systems.  By definition, there would be less available inventory to each system.  BUT, if the new system combines all inventory, into II or otherwise, and simply provides a new way to access that inventory (via points) while leaving the other options available, I see the potential for a win/win.  If I don't want to pay to access the inventory using the new option of points, no problem.  I can still access the inventory using the old system.  But, I can also pay a fee to use a new inventory access option, points.


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## Cobra1950 (Mar 12, 2010)

Actually Marriott excercising the ROFR on week 52 at Summittwatch is not surprising given the spread in values between their advertised price and what they have been selling for.  Also, probably they figure they can stabilize the value of the rest of the weeks at least to Platinum, if they can hold the values on these.


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## davidvel (Mar 13, 2010)

I would be surprised, and shareholders and the SEC would have quite an interest, if the following statement was issued by IILG and Marriott still plans to establish an internal system during the contract period: 



> The multi-year agreement extends the relationship first established in 1990 between two leaders in the shared ownership industry, each highly regarded for their commitment to quality, exemplary customer service, and innovation.
> 
> *Interval will continue to provide Marriott Vacation Club owners with both internal and external vacation exchange services,* as well as an array of other leisure programs and benefits that reinforce the value proposition of their purchase. These include offering the option of trading their accommodations for a resort within the Marriott portfolio or from among the 2,500-plus resorts in Interval's worldwide network.



Seriousness aside, I am confident that Marriott's big time lawyers read all my posts about their inability to give priority reservation rules to their "internal traders," as well as to reconcile all the different CCRs, and just decided to scrap the system.


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## ondeadlin (Mar 13, 2010)

Cobra1950 said:


> Actually Marriott excercising the ROFR on week 52 at Summittwatch is not surprising given the spread in values between their advertised price and what they have been selling for.  Also, probably they figure they can stabilize the value of the rest of the weeks at least to Platinum, if they can hold the values on these.



I'm skeptical of this report. When we last toured at Mountainside, the salesperson specifically told us Summit Watch doesn't have right of first refusal. She was using it to make a point that it was one more reason we were better off buying at Mountainside.

I'm pretty sure I've seen the same info from SW owners on TUG.


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## rickandcindy23 (Mar 13, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> I'm skeptical of this report. When we last toured at Mountainside, the salesperson specifically told us Summit Watch doesn't have right of first refusal. She was using it to make a point that it was one more reason we were better off buying at Mountainside.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I've seen the same info from SW owners on TUG.



I thought all Marriott properties were subject to ROFR.  I think that salesperson is blowing smoke.


----------



## Twinkstarr (Mar 13, 2010)

ondeadlin said:


> I'm skeptical of this report. When we last toured at Mountainside, the salesperson specifically told us Summit Watch doesn't have right of first refusal. She was using it to make a point that it was one more reason we were better off buying at Mountainside.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I've seen the same info from SW owners on TUG.



I haven't been on TUG, very long but shortly after I joined I read that ROFR was being used again at SW. I'm sure they don't bother with Gold weeks, but I know they've been using it on Plat. weeks, when I've talked to a few resale agents.

Like Cobra1950, I've poked around a bit looking at a 52 SW and to be honest most of the prices were well about Fredm's reported ROFR ones and the buyers were not moving from those price levels(at least the ones I enquired about).


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## timeos2 (Mar 13, 2010)

*It doesn't mean anything to renew - its not exclusive*



davidvel said:


> I would be surprised, and shareholders and the SEC would have quite an interest, if the following statement was issued by IILG and Marriott still plans to establish an internal system during the contract period:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriousness aside, I am confident that Marriott's big time lawyers read all my posts about their inability to give priority reservation rules to their "internal traders," as well as to reconcile all the different CCRs, and just decided to scrap the system.



There is absolutely nothing to prevent Marriott from running an internal exchange program that would compete in at least some ways with II as II can NEVER be "internal". Since Marriott can't actually un-affiliate resorts from II anyway renewing the affiliation is meaningless. Far too much is being read into it on this thread.  

While it hasn't happened until it does I'd place my money on an internal Marriott exchange system, points based, within the year. Time will tell.


----------



## Fredm (Mar 13, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Stupid?  I guess I just don't understand why whenever the subject has been discussed, nobody has ever used as an argument against it, "As long as Marriott is still affiliated with II as is, a points-based internal exchange system will be a stupid idea and won't happen."
> 
> In all the speculation there's been lots of talk about how Marriott would have to be watched closely so that weeks inventory which is deposited isn't taken by Marriott for the points system, and so that they don't copy all of Starwood's mistakes, and lots of other logistical questions, but no one has flat-out said that two systems can't co-exist.  You think so, obviously, but not everyone does.  In fact, some folks did flat-out say that Marriott would be stupid, would be making a very bad business and customer service decision, if they DON'T give owners who don't like the rumored points system the option of staying with II as is.
> 
> Different strokes, I guess.



Susan.

It's all about inventory.

Inventory for a new points program must come from somewhere.
There are several sources:
 - Marriott could build and sell the new inventory as points - they have not.
 - Marriott could accumulate (via ROFR) - they have not.
 - Marriott could control the exchange inventory of its owners with a self operated internal exchange system - that just went out the window.
 - Marriott could take the inventory acquired from Rewards conversions, but it would be a bad business move on their part. Marriott makes money from it, and is limited at best.

That leaves a start-up, relying almost exclusively on those existing owners who buy into it.  If this were the basis for the launch of a Marriott point system it would not make it out of the gate, IMO.  

The rumor had traction with me while a Marriott operated internal exchange (instead of I.I.) was in the mix of assumptions. Without it, I do believe Marriott would be nuts to attempt it. That is why I don't think they will.

One thing we all agree on: time will tell.


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## Fredm (Mar 13, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I thought all Marriott properties were subject to ROFR.  I think that salesperson is blowing smoke.



Not all. 
The early ( pre 1991) resorts (Hilton Head,, Desert Springs Villas I,  etc)
do not have preemption rights in the Governing Docs.

Summit Watch was also on this list, but by some bit of alchemy I still do not understand it changed about 3-4 years ago.


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## FlyerBobcat (Mar 13, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I thought all Marriott properties were subject to ROFR.  I think that salesperson is blowing smoke.



Check out this old post from Dave M.


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## Dave M (Mar 13, 2010)

It's not such an "old" post. It is part of the FAQs for this forum and was updated for changes last July.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 13, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Susan.
> 
> It's all about inventory.
> 
> ...



Fred.   

I know you said you've stayed out of the related discussions on TUG before this, but I don't know if that means you've been reading and staying quiet or not reading at all.  In any event, virtually 99% of the speculation has included the presumptions that, 1) if Marriott were to roll out an internal points-based exchange system, II as it existed before the rollout would still be available for both internal and external exchanges to those owners who choose not to join Marriott's new system; and 2) that if enough owners are enticed by a perception of value to join the new system, there is still enough Marriott inventory to support both Marriott's internal and II's internal/external exchange programs.

Here are a few quotes from just the latest "Marriott may de-value ..." related thread:

DaveM:  "What does seem pretty clear is that there will be a points program that will apply to many (most?) future timeshare sales by Marriott, will involve exchanging based on points and will be available to current Marriott timeshare owners - for a price."

Stefa:  "I can't imagine a reason Marriott would not wish to be affiliated with an exchange company. It is a nice perk for owners even when a well-functioning internal system is in place."

timeos2:  "We don't know how Marriott plans to handle whatever points program they appear to be ready to announce but in any case it doesn't affect those that say with their deeded ownerships."

ocdb8r:  "As for those of us that have been able to garner great trades in the current system, I don't see an internal Marriott system destroying that either. I also own in Starwood and am still able to get many great trades back into starwood resorts with II despite a very active internal system on their part."

and on and on and on and on ... there are hundreds of posts in many threads.  Not one person that I can remember has brought to the party what you and now Davidvel have said, that it's impossible for both systems to co-exist.

I was one of the few who questioned whether Marriott would amend its contract/affiliation with II so as to entice owners to join their new system, but most folks thought that wouldn't happen.  Turns out they were right, and if Marriott rolls out their new thing, it will co-exist alongside II as we know it.

The press release changes none of the speculation.  We're still at the exact same point we were three days ago, wondering if and when Marriott might decide to either roll out or back off.


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## Fredm (Mar 13, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Fred.
> 
> I know you said you've stayed out of the related discussions on TUG before this, but I don't know if that means you've been reading and staying quiet or not reading at all.  In any event, virtually 99% of the speculation has included the presumptions that, 1) if Marriott were to roll out an internal points-based exchange system, II as it existed before the rollout would still be available for both internal and external exchanges to those owners who choose not to join Marriott's new system; and 2) that if enough owners are enticed by a perception of value to join the new system, there is still enough Marriott inventory to support both Marriott's internal and II's internal/external exchange programs.
> 
> ...



Susan.

I know what the 1000 posts on the subject say.
Almost all speculate from an unsubstantiated premise.
Given the information as it is, I simply disagree with the consensus view, for the reasons I have stated.


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## sdtugger (Mar 13, 2010)

*Consensus View?*



Fredm said:


> Susan.
> 
> I know what the 1000 posts on the subject say.
> Almost all speculate from an unsubstantiated premise.
> Given the information as it is, I simply disagree with the consensus view, for the reasons I have stated.



Consensus view?  I haven't seen one.  There are a vocal few posters on each side of the debate.  That's hardly a consensus.

Many have pointed out what I believe and that is that splitting the availability of prime weeks into two systems would seriously weaken both systems.  That would not make anyone happy in either system.  No one has explained how a separate new system would allocate scarce weeks like Maui Presidents Day, Christmas, etc. in a way that wouldn't make both systems unhappy.

The new thought in this string that Marriott may use II for both the old and new systems is the onlyl guessing that I've seen so far that makes any effort to combine the inventory for both systems.  As I said earlier, that might work.  But, splitting the inventory among two systems is a recipe for frustration by people in either system.  Think it is hard to get a prime week under the current system?  Try getting that prime week when the inventory is split between two systems.


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## Fredm (Mar 13, 2010)

sdtugger said:


> Consensus view?  I haven't seen one.  There are a vocal few posters on each side of the debate.  That's hardly a consensus.
> 
> Many have pointed out what I believe and that is that splitting the availability of prime weeks into two systems would seriously weaken both systems.  That would not make anyone happy in either system.  No one has explained how a separate new system would allocate scarce weeks like Maui Presidents Day, Christmas, etc. in a way that wouldn't make both systems unhappy.
> 
> The new thought in this string that Marriott may use II for both the old and new systems is the onlyl guessing that I've seen so far that makes any effort to combine the inventory for both systems.  As I said earlier, that might work.  But, splitting the inventory among two systems is a recipe for frustration by people in either system.  Think it is hard to get a prime week under the current system?  Try getting that prime week when the inventory is split between two systems.



Consensus view, as in the likelihood of internal exchange/points based system.

I agree with you. Splitting the systems would be a recipe for disaster.


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## kjd (Mar 13, 2010)

*placing a value on a point system*

There is the question of what a Marriott points based internal trade system is worth to the average Marriott owner.  Many here have stated that they would not pay a lot to get into a new internal trading system.  It may in fact not be worth anything despite the understanding that some folks might get better internal trades with a new system.  Others say they wouldn't.   

In my opinion there is little or no intrinsic value of a points based internal trading system for the average Marriott owner.  Therefore, the issue is a non-starter for all but the most enthusiastic traders.  (Many of whom reside here at TUG.)  Here are some of the reasons why IMO it's so.

1.  A large number of Marriott owners never trade because they use their home resorts and frankly would be confused by having two systems.  Many of them don't understand the system we have now because they never use it.  A look at the Newbie questions here on TUG reveals that.

2.  Other Marriott owners consistently rent their units.  II policy is that traders are not permitted rent their units.  Some traders play games with the II guest certificates but most owners try to rent only their home resort units.  A points based system in this circumstance would be irrelevant.  Marriott would in all probability institute the same rules with an internal trading system as with II.

3.  With a newly signed Master Agreement with II Marriott would have some limitations to consider with any new system.  II believes that they are presently the designated internal trading system.  They have an agreement that says so.

4.  A new trading system alongside of the present II system is liable to be a hodge-podge of conflicting and confusing rules resulting in little benefit to anyone.  Anybody remember the Florida Club?  How does that work?

5.  Marriott owners are a different demographic than the Disney Vacation Club and other points based systems and have different vacation objectives.  Some of the points based systems lack an adequate number of resorts or they're in the wrong locations.  It reveals that the brand is most important and not the system.

We could continue to speculate about other possible reasons of why it could be a bad idea but I believe the point is clear.  The real value of an internal points based trading system might not be worth the time and effort for Marriott to develop one.  I'm sure that they are very wary of creating a "Frankenstein" that would set their sales efforts back for years to come.


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## Transit (Mar 13, 2010)

I believe Marriott's decisions will be based on the financial angle and owner questioners/surveys they sent out. New sales are stagnant with no light at the end of the tunnel in sight. They have to do something to drum up sales. A point system would make sense.


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## taffy19 (Mar 13, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> I thought all Marriott properties were subject to ROFR.  I think that salesperson is blowing smoke.


There are several older resorts that do not have this clause.  Here is the thread as I know that our resort (DSV-I), where we owned, didn't have it so you could pick it up cheaper than at the second resort on the same property (DSV-II) where they have this clause in the contract and certainly now that they have lost the Spa privileges.


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## BocaBum99 (Mar 13, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Dave's source may have had information at the time that was accurate.
> 
> It was also reasonable to speculate that Marriott would consider a self operated internal exchange system (although I thought it a bad move, personally).
> 
> ...



I completely agree with FredM.  I was planning on dumping my Marriott weeks.  Now, I think I'll keep them.


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## EducatedConsumer (Mar 13, 2010)

If anything, I'd speculate that Marriott will do what Disney Vacation Club did with II and now RCI; use their own people for the human interaction between customer and Vacation Club on exchanges. 

Marriott Owner Services staff, to me, far outshine Interval International's staff.

The one stop shopping concept (Marriott Owner Services) is a good one.


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## BocaBum99 (Mar 13, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Consensus view, as in the likelihood of internal exchange/points based system.
> 
> I agree with you. Splitting the systems would be a recipe for disaster.



I agree with most of what you have posted in this thread.  However, I do not agree that splitting the systems will be a recipe for disaster.  In fact, splitting the systems will lead to the exact same end state as other systems that have chosen to maintain 2 systems.  That is that both will continue to exist for the long term future.  New customers will go into the new system and existing owners will be able to continue to use it as they always have.  It takes years, even decades for enough people to convert to make a meaningful difference in usage and availability.

What I thought Marriott would do is make a bold move to capture and control much of the inventory from existing owners via the approaches discussed in other threads on this topic.  Apparently, they are not confident enough to do so.  That is actually very good news for existing Marriott owners and very bad for those who pay developer prices for hopes of getting great access into the new points system.  All they are going to get is a lighter wallet from overpaying for developer timeshares.


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## abdibile (Mar 15, 2010)

Why would Marriot need an internal sytem to generate revenues from exchange fees?

Do we know for sure that Marriott does not get a kickback (or the majority) of the II exchange fee for exchanges involving one or two Marriotts?

This could be something that is in the renewed agreement after Marriott threatened II with an internal system?


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## kjd (Mar 15, 2010)

How long would it take Marriott to implement an internal trading system?  Probably a long time.  One thing these large corporations know how to do is to roll out a new product with a lot of fanfare.  They usually take enough time to make sure the new product will be successful.  Sometimes it's not successful and actually does harm to the overall brand.  (Remember the new formula Coca-Cola?)  If Marriott has any intention of rolling out an internal trading system you can bet they will take their time.  (That's IF.)

A previous post gave another explanation for all of the rumors and hoopla.  It could very well be that the rumors were started by Marriott in order to shake-down ILLG for the purpose of extracting concessions for the new II Master Agreement.  Happens all the time in business.  If you think back to when this issue surfaced the rumors came from several supposedly informed Marriott sources. 

A rumor is unwittingly repeated by individuals over the course of time.  A thread like this one might even take root.  The rumor then takes on a life of its' own and outlasts the initial time frame of its' intended purpose.  Is that what's happened here?  Who knows?  No doubt there are some folks who consider deception to always be a part of a good offensive.  Anyway, it's fun to speculate about the unknown.


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## James1975NY (Mar 15, 2010)

abdibile said:


> Why would Marriot need an internal sytem to generate revenues from exchange fees?
> 
> Do we know for sure that Marriott does not get a kickback (or the majority) of the II exchange fee for exchanges involving one or two Marriotts?
> 
> This could be something that is in the renewed agreement after Marriott threatened II with an internal system?



Fees associated to points programs that exist today are:
 - Annual membership or "club" dues
 - Reservations fees
 - Addl housekeeping fees after initial housekeeping allowance is exceeded.
 - conversion fees to points etc.

No one knows the details of what fees Marriott will consider or apply just yet.


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## ann824 (Mar 17, 2010)

*MVCI to discuss points program*

Thanks, I've distributed this to the other Board members and I'll bring it up at the Presidents Meeting and at the Board meeting on April 19.
I've also asked MRHC to provide some usage numbers. 

MVCI is giving us a preliminary look at the new internal exchange/points program and I've asked them to discuss whether the Florida Club would still be relevant. Perhaps its an anachronism and we'll find out. If it is, your Board will address it on April 19 at our Spring meeting.

Jim Shonkwiler
President, Grande Vista of Orlando Condominium, Inc.


I'm not sure what this means.  I was always wondering how the Florida Club would fit into a points program.  It looks like the points program may still be alive and well,


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## dioxide45 (Mar 17, 2010)

ann824 said:


> Thanks, I've distributed this to the other Board members and I'll bring it up at the Presidents Meeting and at the Board meeting on April 19.
> I've also asked MRHC to provide some usage numbers.
> 
> MVCI is giving us a preliminary look at the new internal exchange/points program and I've asked them to discuss whether the Florida Club would still be relevant. Perhaps its an anachronism and we'll find out. If it is, your Board will address it on April 19 at our Spring meeting.
> ...



What did you ask of the MGV BOD President?


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## ann824 (Mar 17, 2010)

I didn't ask anything. I get an email with new posts about once a week and this was in the email.


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## radmoo (Mar 20, 2010)

I deposited my Marriott week w/II thinking we'd use for son's PV wedding.  In the end, we decided we were better off to stay at wedding venue.  The week expires Jan 2011 and I don't think we'll be able to use by then.  Is there any way that II will extend for a month or two?

Thanks Tuggers


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## Cathyb (Mar 20, 2010)

*Extending*



radmoo said:


> I deposited my Marriott week w/II thinking we'd use for son's PV wedding.  In the end, we decided we were better off to stay at wedding venue.  The week expires Jan 2011 and I don't think we'll be able to use by then.  Is there any way that II will extend for a month or two?
> 
> Thanks Tuggers



If my memory is correct, I believe for a fee you can extend it.  Call II and ask.


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## ann824 (Mar 20, 2010)

You can extend your week for 3 mos. for $59, 6 mos for $89, and 1 yr. for $169.
You don't have to do it before it expires so you can wait and see if you find something.  It will stay in your account for a while and you will have the option to extend it online.


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## radmoo (Mar 20, 2010)

Thanks everyone.  I'm sure 3 mos would be just fine!


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## PerryM (Mar 20, 2010)

*Say what?*



ann824 said:


> Thanks, I've distributed this to the other Board members and I'll bring it up at the Presidents Meeting and at the Board meeting on April 19.
> I've also asked MRHC to provide some usage numbers.
> 
> *MVCI is giving us a preliminary look at the new internal exchange/points program* and I've asked them to discuss whether the Florida Club would still be relevant. Perhaps its an anachronism and we'll find out. If it is, your Board will address it on April 19 at our Spring meeting.
> ...



I finally got around to reading some posts and I'm intrigued with this one.

Marriott is giving preliminary views of their new internal exchange program?

Is this happening everywhere?  If not, why here?


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## SueDonJ (Mar 20, 2010)

PerryM said:


> I finally got around to reading some posts and I'm intrigued with this one.
> 
> Marriott is giving preliminary views of their new internal exchange program?
> 
> Is this happening everywhere?  If not, why here?



I'm intrigued, too.

According to this post in the "Marriott may de-value ..." thread, it sounds like the board president responded to something about the Florida Club in the Grand Vista owners group on Yahoo, but it sure is interesting that he also mentions that Marriott will be revealing a new points system to that board (and possibly others?)

Hmmmmmm ....


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## RandR (Mar 20, 2010)

It is interesting.  Makes it seem more concrete that something will be coming.  But that said, if it is just a preliminary look in the middle of April, I doubt highly that June 1 is the rollout date.


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## SueDonJ (Mar 21, 2010)

Either that, or it's ready for rollout now and the boards are getting a look at it so that they might be able to answer questions from owners when it's announced?  That's the trouble here - anything is possible!


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## dioxide45 (Mar 21, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Either that, or it's ready for rollout now and the boards are getting a look at it so that they might be able to answer questions from owners when it's announced?  That's the trouble here - anything is possible!



They probably have to "sell it" to the boards. If it is a true exchange program, they likely have to get each BOD at each resort to vote to allow owners at these resorts to use a new internal exchange program.


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## DanH (Mar 24, 2010)

*Marriott needs internal points system to be competitive*

I am an external marriott desert springs owner meaning I did not purchase my unit from Marriott directly thus I will not be able to exchange my week for the new points system.  I do understand that Marriott needs a point system to maintain their competitiveness in the marketplace.  I know several people who specifically purchased Worldmark mainly because they liked to have the flexibility of a points system.  An internal points exchange system at Marriott will be more leverage for their sales staff to sell to this demographic.  As far as inventory available to II, all of us external owners will not have the use of the new Marriott point system.  Although Marriott prime weeks will have more points associated with them compared to off season weeks, those additional points will not make up for the benefits of II bonus weeks (which I personally frequenly use and enjoy.)  Thus, the incentive to continue trading on II will continue for those of us with Prime weeks.


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## winger (Mar 24, 2010)

DanH said:


> I am an external marriott desert springs owner meaning I did not purchase my unit from Marriott directly thus I will not be able to exchange my week for the new points system.  .....


 How do you know ???


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## TheTimeTraveler (Mar 24, 2010)

DanH said:


> I am an external marriott desert springs owner meaning I did not purchase my unit from Marriott directly thus I will not be able to exchange my week for the new points system.  I do understand that Marriott needs a point system to maintain their competitiveness in the marketplace.  I know several people who specifically purchased Worldmark mainly because they liked to have the flexibility of a points system.  An internal points exchange system at Marriott will be more leverage for their sales staff to sell to this demographic.  As far as inventory available to II, all of us external owners will not have the use of the new Marriott point system.  Although Marriott prime weeks will have more points associated with them compared to off season weeks, those additional points will not make up for the benefits of II bonus weeks (which I personally frequenly use and enjoy.)  Thus, the incentive to continue trading on II will continue for those of us with Prime weeks.




I am confident you'll be able to join the points program, FOR A BIG FEE


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## m61376 (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't think we can or should make any assumptions. IF Marriott does introduce a new program, rumor has it that resale purchasers will be able to join; the fee for joining may be higher, they MAY grandfather existing resale owners, there MAY be a reduced fee for initial adopters, etc.. There are so many IFS and MAYBES I don't think anyone can offer anything but speculation at this point.

I am not confident that there will even be an internal trading program as predicted this June, let alone what fees may or may not be involved. Moreover, I am not sure that it will be attractive enough even to direct purchasers that they will join in droves; the design of the program will determine who ultimately decides to buy in. It MAY be wonderful and people MAY clamor to join; it MAY be very costly and MAY involve giving up home resort priority and many current owners MAY opt to continue trading in II, in which case the inventory for exchange will remain much better using the current program. 

IF it mimics the Asia Pacific program than my opinion is that that's what will happen, but it could be an amazing new program that everyone wants to join, or anywhere in between. We will all have to wait and see, and IF there is actually anything to see, make decisions ultimately as to what suits our usage patterns.


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## tlwmkw (Mar 24, 2010)

I haven't been involved with this discussion since it is all so speculative however there is one detail that no one is mentioning.  When I took the survey about a points program they stated that it would be a temporary type membership if you own a deeded week.  The way they explained this was that you still own your deeded week but agree to give up your week for some time period ( I believe they mentioned a three year interval) after which the week would revert back to you and you could choose to continue in the old way or join the point system again for another period (and obviously for another fee).  The way that the questions were asked implied that since current owners have a deed which cannot be changed easily this was a solution that would allow them to participate if they wanted to.  As far as how they will handle new purchases that is the big unknown but any resorts that are sold out, or close to selling out, will not really be able to fully adopt this system if this is so.  

just my 2cents

tlwmkw


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## James1975NY (Mar 24, 2010)

tlwmkw said:


> I haven't been involved with this discussion since it is all so speculative however there is one detail that no one is mentioning.  When I took the survey about a points program they stated that it would be a temporary type membership if you own a deeded week.  The way they explained this was that you still own your deeded week but agree to give up your week for some time period ( I believe they mentioned a three year interval) after which the week would revert back to you and you could choose to continue in the old way or join the point system again for another period (and obviously for another fee).  The way that the questions were asked implied that since current owners have a deed which cannot be changed easily this was a solution that would allow them to participate if they wanted to.  As far as how they will handle new purchases that is the big unknown but any resorts that are sold out, or close to selling out, will not really be able to fully adopt this system if this is so.
> 
> just my 2cents
> 
> tlwmkw



With the exception of the "mandatory resorts" in the Starwood system, this is the same setup. For owners that want to participate, they are comitted to 3-years. I don't see Marriott asking an interested owner to "re-up" after 3-years. They will probabaly keep the membership going until a written request to cancel is made....if an owner does request cancellation, they will then have to pay again to get back in.


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## Latravel (Mar 24, 2010)

I am absolutely amazed that some people still have doubts that a new system is coming!  What more clues do you need?  Also, I would be completely surprised if Marriott "grandfathered" anyone, much less resale purchasers.


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## JimIg23 (Mar 24, 2010)

I agree, but still think that is a big mistake.  Marriott should get as many owners as possible to get into the program fast so their inventory can grow fast and it can be successful.  Letting owner in for free is the way to go.  They will make money on the trades.


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## m61376 (Mar 24, 2010)

Heidi-
Given the economy and the slowness of a recovery, I find what my source told me to be totally credible- that the contemplated internal trading points program was basically put on an indefinite hold. Of course, he could be totally wrong. But I have to think that Marriott would be a little nervous doing something which may rock the boat, so to speak, in this climate.

And I agree with Jim above- the best way to ensure to success is to get the ball rolling fast. What better way than to entice owners with a very low cost or free option? As for resale owners- I know we'll never agree on that issue- but I still think that Marriott has a lot more to lose in the realm of goodwill than they do to gain in a few dollars extra cost if they choose not to grandfather existing resale owners; as for future resale buyers, that's a different story (because it would be an incentive to purchase direct). 

The only thing I think we can be certain of is that nothing really is certain at this point- not that a program will be introduced, nor when it might be introduced, and certainly not any of the details. We will all have to wait and see. June is just over two months away....


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