# Financing a timeshare.



## jimf41 (Apr 2, 2008)

I’ve been a TUG member for a little over a year now and I’ve learned a lot of information on the in’s and out’s of timesharing. One topic that repeatedly pops up is the subject of financing. It seems to me that there is a train of thought here , on the Marriott forum at least, that seems to say that financing a timeshare is a bad deal and should be avoided at all costs.

I don’t know where this idea came from but to me it’s ridiculous. There are two issues here, he decision to buy and the choice of payment. 

DECISION TO BUY
This is an individual choice based on your vacation preferences and the type of vacations and amenities you like. I have friends that would not enjoy timesharing at all. They prefer small off the beaten path locations not associated with a cookie cutter resort chain. MVCI locations just wouldn’t fill their needs and wouldn’t make sense. Other friends have enjoyed it so much that they purchased after visiting our timeshare. Both like to vacation but differ only on the type of experience.

HOW TO PAY 
I suppose there are some of you out there that have $50,000 to $ 100,00 lying around that you can tap to make a $30,000 plus purchase cash. I just bought a $38,000 TS and I financed it. I also have sufficient funds in accessible investments to cover that purchase. So why did I finance? Well first of all my investments are making about 9% right now and I can borrow the money for 6.125%. If I take the advice to pay cash I lose about 3% on my money. Not to mention all the points I got putting that purchase on my CC and earning 5 points per $1. With a little careful timing I got the use of $38,000 free for about two months. I think the $120,000 price tag on that Marco Island penthouse on New Year’s week is the most insane idea Marriott has ever tried to sell. But if I went off the deep end and decided I just had to have it you better believe I would be financing it.

My son on the other hand is just starting out. New house, new bride, both have decent jobs with a good future and two small children. He’s been to our TS’s with us and now he’s getting the idea to buy one of his own. Now he financed his house, two cars and he and his bride are paying off their financed educations. In a few years he’ll be able to seriously consider a TS purchase. Why would he not finance? He certainly won’t have the cash lying around. He financed his cars and TS’s are more expensive than cars when you decide to go Marriott. He could wait and save the money for the purchase but that would require several years of savings with no vacations. Every other major purchase he made he financed, as do most folks I know. Why would he treat a TS purchase any differently? In ten years the cars he financed will be worthless. A 2bdr PLAT OF at MPB cost about $14,000 ten years ago. Today it's worth over $25,000 and thats resale. I don't think the folks who bought with financing in 1998 would agree that financing was a bad idea. I sure wish I was one of them.

The argument put forth by many stresses the huge loss you will take when you go to resell. I don’t find that this holds any water at all except for those who are purchasing a TS for financial investment with the intent to make a profit. To the three of you in the entire TS community who purchased for this reason I would advise you to sell now. Your first loss is generally your best loss. Would anyone advise their children not to finance a house because they might get divorced and have to sell at a loss? 

I’m not going to open Pandora’s box by discussing ROFR, resale vrs developer, Marriott vrs non Marriott, MRP’ as a purchase incentive as these issue’s each have their own proponents. The point is that once you make the independent decision to buy a TS, the decision to finance it or not should be the same as any other major purchase. Shop around, get the best rate for the lowest cost and enjoy your purchase.


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## pwrshift (Apr 2, 2008)

I'm in the camp that you shouldn't finance a depreciating asset, or a vacation.  In most cases, buying a timeshare direct is gonna cost you 40% the moment you walk out the door.  But you have to do what works for you.

I'm more interested in how you averaged 9% growth in your stocks this year.  

Brian


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## sdtugger (Apr 2, 2008)

*Rent*

$38,000 even at 6.125% interest is $2,327,50 per year in interest alone.  Add to that $1200 per year in annual maintenance fees and you are paying $3,527.50 per year out of pocket costs for that timeshare.  Show me a timeshare purchased retail for $38,000 that rents for more than $3,527.50 per week.  You could probably rent and pocket a significant difference in price AND you'd avoid being tied down to the same resort and being subject to the annual increases in maintenance fees.  You get all of the vacation with less cost and no strings attached.

You are also very lucky to finance at 6.125%.  I'm assuming that is a home equity loan.  Many will not be able to get that rate and will pay more like 13.49% for the privilege of financing their purchase from Marriott.  These poor saps get to spend $5,126.20 in interest alone for their week.  Add the maintenance fees and they are paying $6326.20 for one week!  Yikes.  Would you really advise your son to finance in those circumstances.  He could rent 2.5 weeks or more for the same dollars and avoid being tied to the week.

I'll leave to others the wisdom of using the equity in your home to finance a purchase like a timeshare.  But, that may be largely a hypothetical question in today's real estate market.  I'll also leave alone the topic of 9% investments versus financing a timeshare other than to say you are doing very well if you are making 9% since November 2007.


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## MOXJO7282 (Apr 2, 2008)

Why not play the 0% credit card game? That's how I got into the TS business when back in 2002. When rates are low those offers were prevalent. Even if its for just 12 months, you can save several hundred dollars or more over the course of time. And if you know what you are doing, you can keep that going indefinitely. I've been doing it to some degree for 6 years. I've saved literally $1000s of dollars doing this. 

Regards.
Joe


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## AwayWeGo (Apr 2, 2008)

*E-Z Payment Plans -- My Kind & The Credit Card Company's Kind.*




jimf41 said:


> financing a timeshare is a bad deal and should be avoided at all costs.


If I can't buy a timeshare unless I arrange E-Z payments with the bank or the credit union or a loan company, then I can't afford a timeshare.  Period. 

Ditto all other consumer purchases. 

To buy a principal residence (home, townhouse, condo), OK -- I'll take out a mortgage. 

For anything else, I make a bunch of monthly payments into a bank or credit union savings account & after a while when the balance I've saved up is enough to buy the timeshare or car or TV set or what have you, then I'll use the savings balance for that.  That's my kind of E-Z payment plan. 

The disadvantage of doing it that way is being unable to satisfy my craving for instant gratification.  You know, enjoy now & pay later because _I want what I want when I want it.  Now -- not later_.  

The advantage of doing it that way is that the interest payments involved are money coming in & being added to my account instead of money going out that I have to pay to the credit card company or the bank or the auto finance agency or the timeshare company.  That is, I get more stuff for less money. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## jimf41 (Apr 2, 2008)

Brian
RIM is in your neck of the woods. It's pretty low right now at about $115 a share. But my USAA account has returned actually much better than 9% since I started. It's down right now but this is the BUY LOW time in the BUY LOW/ SELL HIGH equation.

sdtugger
Again USAA is charging 6.125 right now on an equity loan but I expect that to drop a little more. Wachovia will offer you about 5.5% on a refinance right now and they are great to deal with. I bought the MFC Pres week for 37,500. Redweek has two listed for rent in 2009 at $3500 and $5000 respectively. I probably will never rent any of my units so I don't really have any idea of the actual renting price.

Joe,
You live right around the corner from me. I'm in Stony Brook. Thanks for the tip. I was going to use my equity to pay for it but I've received at least 5 offers for balance transfers from 0 to 3%. I'll look into those starting tomorrow.

AwayWeGo
OK nothing wrong with saving and then buying. But that isn't the question. There is nothing special about a timeshare that makes it a bad deal to finance. It's just another big ticket item. Lots of big ticket items depreciate in value. Depreciation is not a reason to eliminate a TS purchase from financing. And if you do it right the government is your partner for about 1/3 of that interest.


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 2, 2008)

jimf41 said:


> I’ve been a TUG member for a little over a year now and I’ve learned a lot of information on the in’s and out’s of timesharing. One topic that repeatedly pops up is the subject of financing. It seems to me that there is a train of thought here , on the Marriott forum at least, that seems to say that financing a timeshare is a bad deal and should be avoided at all costs.



Perhaps this opinion is based upon two factors we see repeated almost every day

1. Someone buys a timeshare from a developer that can be resold for only 50% of what they paid for it last week (excluding DVC)

2. The interest rate they paid is $13% or more (includes DVC)

However, if YOU are able to buy a timeshare from Disney (or certain Marriott's) from the developer and finance it at 6%, then I have no problem with that. This may alos apply to other developers (but I am not an expert on them).

I too have USAA for all my insurance needs and LOVE them.


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## lprstn (Apr 2, 2008)

I'd say if I was in your son's position, I would buy a much CHEAPER TS and pay cash for it.  The Marriott is nice, but there are other nicer, cheaper resorts you can purchase resale of pennies on the dollar.  Heck, if he bought Wyndam, Blue Green, RCI points he could trade one of his vacations for a week at yours and you all would have the best of both worlds.  His just wouldn't cost 38K.


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## CapriciousC (Apr 3, 2008)

We financed our Waiohai week when we bought it, but through our bank (Wells Fargo) and not Marriott.  The interest rate Marriott was charging was ridiculous, and our credit scores are well over 750, so the points weren't worth it, to us.  (DH travels several times a month for work and stays in Marriotts whenever possible, so accumulating points usually isn't much of a problem for us).

We could have paid for it outright had we liquidated some investments, but we did a home equity line and were able to write off the interest on our tax return.  We paid it off in about 18 months.  

We're thinking of buying a second week, but this time we plan to pay for it outright.


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## luv2vacation (Apr 3, 2008)

sdtugger said:


> $38,000 even at 6.125% interest is $2,327,50 per year in interest alone.  Add to that $1200 per year in annual maintenance fees and you are paying $3,527.50 per year out of pocket costs for that timeshare.  Show me a timeshare purchased retail for $38,000 that rents for more than $3,527.50 per week.  You could probably rent and pocket a significant difference in price AND you'd avoid being tied down to the same resort and being subject to the annual increases in maintenance fees.  You get all of the vacation with less cost and no strings attached.
> 
> You are also very lucky to finance at 6.125%.  I'm assuming that is a home equity loan.  Many will not be able to get that rate and will pay more like 13.49% for the privilege of financing their purchase from Marriott.  These poor saps get to spend $5,126.20 in interest alone for their week.  Add the maintenance fees and they are paying $6326.20 for one week!  Yikes.  Would you really advise your son to finance in those circumstances.  He could rent 2.5 weeks or more for the same dollars and avoid being tied to the week.
> 
> I'll leave to others the wisdom of using the equity in your home to finance a purchase like a timeshare.  But, that may be largely a hypothetical question in today's real estate market.  I'll also leave alone the topic of 9% investments versus financing a timeshare other than to say you are doing very well if you are making 9% since November 2007.




Okay, you're saying that *every year *it will cost $2,327,50 + MF but, what many of these thoughts seem to be overlooking is, if I keep my $38,000 TS for 20 years, then I can take the $6982.50 (2327.5 x 3) and divide it by 20 years.  Now my interest payment each year is only $350 (app.).  Even with $1200 MF, that's $1550 per year.  To me, for the week that I'm looking at, that is worth it to know that I don't have to look (or negotiate for) a rental every year.  And that come retirement, if I'm so lucky to live that long, the only cost each year will be MF.  (I know that will go up but so will rental costs.)  (I also realize that we're not factoring in principal here.)

The reason I use x3 is because I never take a loan out for more than a 3-year term.  Unless a promotional rate requires me to take longer, and then I pay extra each month in order to pay it off within that 3 year term.  I have done this many times to buy TS and cars since buying my first new car when I was 22.  I ALWAYS shop around for the best rates, often use home equity loans for the tax advantages, and NEVER have more than one of these loans outstanding at a time.

The reason I do this -  I know what I can afford each month, Hubby and I LOVE to travel, I don't have $30,000 or more laying around, and we need a reliable car (not only for travel but to get back and forth to work) and want a nice place to travel to NOW.  It's not so much instant gratification as the fact that we work very hard and we feel that we very much DESERVE the 4 weeks of vacation that we take each year.  (Also, it allowed us to take our children to a lot of nice places as they were growing up that we never could've afforded otherwise.)  Some might say, "Why not save the money for 3 years and then buy it."  And then save again for 3 years, etc.  Because you never know if you'll even be here in 3 years.  I lost my maternal grandfather at age 55 to lung cancer, my paternal grandmother at age 59, also to cancer.  My dearest aunt had only just turned 56 when she died from pancreatic cancer.  My beloved mother, who had only just retired from her job the year before, was diagnosed with lymphoma.  She fought valiantly for almost 2 years before we lost her in May 2006.  She was only 64 when she passed away.  And then the biggest SUCCESS story - my only sister, a 2-time ovarian cancer SURVIVOR who was first diagnosed stage 3 at 36 years old - but who lives EVERY day with the threat of recurrence (not to mention all the time she lost to the horrible treatments).  These are the reasons that, as long as it doesn't "break the bank", certain "luxury" items we allow ourselves NOW.

So those of you who say that you should never finance a depreciating asset or a vacation, I disagree.  If you do your research and it's worth it TO YOU, then go for it.  All the money in the world could not replace the many, MANY  wonderful memories I got from vacationing with my (entire) family.

BTW, some of you may say, "Buy a cheaper TS" or buy a cheaper car.  I LIKE Marriott and that's where I like to stay and we drive to most places so we like the luxury & size of a nice SUV (although it was a minivan while the kids were between 5 and 15).


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## pwrshift (Apr 3, 2008)

Jim ... in the stock market, timing is everything and I've been fortunate enough to average out a good return over the last 20 years or so.  But I surely wouldn't put all my portfolio in RIM .. but I recently sold it all at $113 and made a very nice gain, but sold with the belief that dramatic growth like that is over for that stock in such a competitive high-tech market.   Same for Google, which I got in below $100 shortly after the IPO and got out around $550 while watching it climb even higher ... but today I sleep at nights.   

Last year, some 80% of our best mutual fund brains lost money -- and still charged unit holders their MER!  So getting a 9% return on your whole estate/portfolio over the last year was a tough one for novices as so many people wanting to protect their portfolio invested in 'banks' or in commodity rich Canada.  The buy low/sell high formula is a road full of potholes - and do you really (really) feel we're at the bottom right now?

Timeshare 'investing' is quite different IMO, even though I wouldn't borrow money at 6% to invest in the stock market either.   However, I did buy a new Malibu in December for a long-time friend at 0% interest for 5 years ... your interest rates in USA must be a lot higher than Canada.  JMHO.

Brian



jimf41 said:


> Brian
> RIM is in your neck of the woods. It's pretty low right now at about $115 a share. But my USAA account has returned actually much better than 9% since I started. It's down right now but this is the BUY LOW time in the BUY LOW/ SELL HIGH equation.
> .


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## m61376 (Apr 3, 2008)

I'll add my 2 cents here, for what it's worth....I think that the adage: "don't buy if you need to finance" is more of a precaution to people who are likely to be plunging in over their heads. If you have the discretionary income but it is invested elsewhere and can borrow either from 0% credit cards in the interim for the short term because it makes financial sense to do so, or use a HELOC for the same reason, that's one thing. That is different from those purchasers who really cannot afford to buy the timeshare but really want to, so are willing to pay near usurious interest rates (either Marriott's or, even worse, monthly credit card charges once those teaser low rates expire).

I don't think you can compare buying a timeshare to purchasing a house or even cars. And, yes, there are many people who choose to finance just about everything, making credit card companies very happy. However, I agree with the posters that feel that, while immediate gratification is of course attractive, it can be a dangerous path.


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## sdtugger (Apr 3, 2008)

jimf41 said:


> Brian
> sdtugger
> I bought the MFC Pres week for 37,500. Redweek has two listed for rent in 2009 at $3500 and $5000 respectively. I probably will never rent any of my units so I don't really have any idea of the actual renting price.



I just checked redweek for MFC and there are dozens of weeks with asking rental prices lower than $3700 and some are significantly lower than $3700.  There are also a handful of weeks renting for more than $3700 and some of those are asking significantly more than $3700.  But, virtually all of the higher priced rentals are for very high demand holiday weeks.  Would your $37,500 week even let you reserve those weeks and their associated views?  In addition, some of those asking prices are a joke.  The owners probably listened to a slick Marriott salesman who promisted they could rent their units for $7K.

I maintain that if you don't have the cash, then you are financially better off to rent compared to financing, particularly using Marriott financing which many do.

I've played the credit card and other financing games too.  But, you don't have to include a timeshare to play those games.  If you just want the arbitrage, you can borrow the 0% credit card money and put it in the bank and earn interest for a year, etc.  In other words, what to do with cheap financing is a separate question than whether you should finance a timeshare.  But, I'll agree that if you can finance at a low enough rate, there is a point where financing can make sense as long as you aren't risking your home, etc. in the process.


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## jerseyfinn (Apr 3, 2008)

Jim,

You make some very nice observations.

Timeshare is mostly a _shoe that can fit all sizes_. Having said that, let me also say that sometimes the _glass slipper that will never fit_. This appears contradictory, but it simply means that lots of folks can find many different ways to enjoy TS, but some folks are indeed not suited for TS.  In my book, the most fundamental question to ask yourself is whether you are truely committed to the idea of *destination travel*. If you can answer "yes" to this question, then proceed to the next step.

I myself use this destination travel concept to frame out whatever TS purchase decision we make. Developer versus resale is more a function of your ownership goals and your own relative view of the world. In general, it's best to avoid Marriott financing if you can get your hands on a home equity line and act as your own bank. That said, we've also done deals with Marriott when they've had promo rates which are better or equal to our home equity line. ( hint: always try to plink down as much of a downpayment as you can onto your Marriott VISA when you purchase. Take the 3:1 or 5:1 points and then turn it over to your equity line. We've even put the full purchase price on the VISA before running home to draw the equity line check ).



> The argument put forth by many stresses the huge loss you will take when you go to resell. I don’t find that this holds any water at all except for those who are purchasing a TS for financial investment with the intent to make a profit.



I agree with you. Anyone pondering a developer purchase should understand that should they elect to sell their week, Marriott will offer 60% of the current selling price ( which IMO is a better deal than most of us could get for our cars ). If you sell privately, you might realilze 65% to 70% of current selling price.

So why purchase timeshare?

Back to my starting point. *Destination travel*. 

But there is also more to this equation. If you are going to purchase TS, be prepared to make a *long term ownership commitment * to destination travel. I don't use especially complicated math here, but simply add up the cost of your annual MFs and divide by the years of ownership in which you occupied at your home resort, or traded to another resort. Here's your raw cost to own. When/if you decide to sell your weeks, you should be able to receive 60% of current selling price on you platinum/gold weeks ( silver is a gray area which varies by resort ).

Bottom line is this. 

You take what you can sell your week for and compare it to your purchase price. If it is less than you paid, add this cost to your net MFs and divide it by the number of years you used the week. Here's your cost to own & enjoy your TS week over the years. If you sell your week at a profit to what you paid, you subtract this profit from your net MF costs and end up with a still lower number. In either case, what you paid for those years of ownership and use will be significantly less than what it would have cost you to pay the Marriott.com rate for the same villa and same vacation. And let's be honest here. None of us would have traveled so regularly and frequently to top destinations if we had to plop down the $480 a night that Marriott asks at a winter resort such as Ocean Pointe . . . and yet as an owner, you are there year after year.

My point is that TS purchased with the goal of destination travel can work for almost anyone in terms of producting destination travel at a better relative value . . .  with or without selling your week at profit. Admittedly, my view is a relative view which does not worry about cost versus lost investment opportunity. It is however consistent with my goals of ownership and my outlook on life ( remember, I said MVC can be a shoe which fits all  ).

For those whom the glass slipper does not fit. Well, TS is not for everyone. But . . . the beauty of MVC is that a wide array of individuals can indeed craft their own destination travel portfolio and enjoy using it for years and years and they will indeed get value out of their ownership ( MVC and TS are like horsehoes and hand grenades . . . you need only be close to the target to score ). Whether you do this developer or resale is up to you. 

I would emphasize that if you're "profit sensitive" you are best served purchasing predeveloper or early in a new resort's life so that you have a better shot at hitting a positive price multiple. But even a late developer or a resale purchase can yield value provided you purchase and use the week for several years.

That's my take on it anyhow so put me down as a satisfied MVC owner doing his own thing.

Barry


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 3, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> your interest rates in USA must be a lot higher than Canada.



Great...another reason to hate Canada.

Robin Williams sang South park's: Bigger, Longer, Uncut Original Soundtrack "Blame Canada" (nominated for best original soundtrack academy award 2000)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjoNucs20Vw

directly from the movie South Park - M.A.C (mothers against Canada) making there plan against Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds07XDaKhC4


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## Bill4728 (Apr 3, 2008)

One interesting way to finance a TS which I kind of like is to buy resale and take over the payments of someone else.

You see this all the time with WM accounts. They sell the TS for $1 but you must take over the payments of the TS loan. Most of the time you don't get a good deal on the purchase price (~$1/pt vs ~$0.70/pt) but for someone who really wants a WM TS they get in with no money down and save about 50% over buying from the developer.


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 3, 2008)

Bill4728 said:


> One interesting way to finance a TS which I kind of like is to buy resale and take over the payments of someone else.
> 
> You see this all the time with WM accounts. They sell the TS for $1 but you must take over the payments of the TS loan. Most of the time you don't get a good deal on the purchase price (~$1/pt vs ~$0.70/pt) but for someone who really wants a WM TS they get in with no money down and save about 50% over buying from the developer.



But you may be stuck with 13% rates or more.


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 3, 2008)

Bill4728 said:


> One interesting way to finance a TS which I kind of like is to buy resale and take over the payments of someone else.
> 
> You see this all the time with WM accounts. They sell the TS for $1 but you must take over the payments of the TS loan. Most of the time you don't get a good deal on the purchase price (~$1/pt vs ~$0.70/pt) but for someone who really wants a WM TS they get in with no money down and save about 50% over buying from the developer.




Bill,

What are the transfer fees to do this and get the account in your name?


Thanks

Richard


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## Dave M (Apr 3, 2008)

For Marriott, the transfer fee is $25.


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## Bill4728 (Apr 3, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Bill4728
> One interesting way to finance a TS which I kind of like is to buy resale and take over the payments of someone else.
> 
> You see this all the time with WM accounts. They sell the TS for $1 but you must take over the payments of the TS loan. Most of the time you don't get a good deal on the purchase price (~$1/pt vs ~$0.70/pt) but for someone who really wants a WM TS they get in with no money down and save about 50% over buying from the developer.






MULTIZ321 said:


> Bill,
> 
> What are the transfer fees to do this and get the account in your name?
> 
> ...



I believe thay are the same as any transfer within WM.


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## MULTIZ321 (Apr 3, 2008)

Bill4728 said:


> I believe thay are the same as any transfer within WM.




Bill,

I'm not a WoldMark member, so I don't know what their transfer fees are.


Richard


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## Beverley (Apr 3, 2008)

luv2vacation said:


> These are the reasons that, as long as it doesn't "break the bank", certain "luxury" items we allow ourselves NOW.
> 
> So those of you who say that you should never finance a depreciating asset or a vacation, I disagree.  If you do your research and it's worth it TO YOU, then go for it.  All the money in the world could not replace the many, MANY  wonderful memories I got from vacationing with my (entire) family.
> 
> BTW, some of you may say, "Buy a cheaper TS" or buy a cheaper car.  I LIKE Marriott and that's where I like to stay and we drive to most places so we like the luxury & size of a nice SUV (although it was a minivan while the kids were between 5 and 15).



I am with you!  We have financed a few and paid for a few.   We are very happy with the vacations and the family time we have had with the type of vacationing that timesharing allows.  Hotel rooms do not connect family and friends the way t/s do.  Life is too short.  I've always felt that but have also learned it the hard way too.

As long as the purchase is not putting you over the top and can be managed well, financing to me is very acceptable.  I frankly do not want to use my funds if I can use someone elses at a reasonable rate.  We financed a car at 3%.  Our investments get more than that.  Even a CD these days can pull 4 to 4.5 %.

Beverley


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## Lawlar (Apr 3, 2008)

*Old Values*



jimf41 said:


> My son on the other hand is just starting out. New house, new bride, both have decent jobs with a good future and two small children. He’s been to our TS’s with us and now he’s getting the idea to buy one of his own. Now he financed his house, two cars and he and his bride are paying off their financed educations. In a few years he’ll be able to seriously consider a TS purchase. Why would he not finance? He certainly won’t have the cash lying around. He financed his cars and TS’s are more expensive than cars when you decide to go Marriott. He could wait and save the money for the purchase but that would require several years of savings with no vacations. Every other major purchase he made he financed, as do most folks I know.



Whatever happened to the traditional values of saving for the future and keeping debt to a minimum?  The savings rate in America is zero.  Many Americans are relying on Social Security and the equity in their homes to take care of them.  No one seems to worry about the future.  That is a big reason so few Americans have any true savings and why our economy is suffering. 

My grandmother went through the depression and, fortunately, she taught me to save and invest.
Frankly, I want to teach my grandkid that its important to save and invest for the future.  

Rather than encourage a newly married child to finance a timeshare I would start by teaching him to invest as much as possible in a good retirement plan and to pay his mortgage at a rate so that its paid off in 15 years.  
We have gone to Maui once or twice a year for 25 years.  We paid around $200 a night for nice hotel rooms on Kaanapali Beach (depending on various deals that were offered).  We really loved those trips.

Unfortunately, I did something last summer that was really out of character and rather stupid.  I bought a MOC TS for an outrageous amount of money.  Yes, it is nice to have an ocean view and a full kitchen (we cooked our own eggs and ate cereal – but we still ate out at night and went once to Sheraton’s brunch, which is not to be missed). 

 So what am I paying for this new way of vacationing?  $2,000 a year in maintenance fees – which is more than what we paid to rent a really nice hotel room.  I am also paying $650 a month on the loan after making a down payment of $10,000.  

Would I recommend that my grandkid (or any child) do this?  Heck no (unless I hated the kid).

That $10,000 down payment and the $650 a month should have been put in an investment for our retirement.  It would have grown to a nice nest egg to add to our support.  Alternatively, If we had invested that $10,000 and $650 a month (plus the maintenance fees) in a college fund for our grandkid (age 8), it would undoubtedly provide him with a very nice education. 

Sorry, but buying a TS is pure folly and is not a legacy to leave to one’s children.  I would urge anyone thinking of buying a MVC timeshare to give a lot of thought about what can be done with that money.  Why waste it on an asset that will depreciate faster than you can enjoy it and that will generate maintenance fees that increase at several times the rate of inflation.  The only one to profit from financing a timeshare is Marriott - and the prices they charge reflects unbelievable greed.


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## lapdawg (Apr 3, 2008)

Even if you can make 9% onyour investment, you will still have to pay 15% capital gains tax, reducing your yield to around 7.6%.

Assuming you can average 9% you're only talking about a net yield of around $500/year.


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## Beverley (Apr 3, 2008)

While MOC is a beautiful resort and location, the cost is more than we can rationalize.  Granted we are East Coast and do not travel to Hawaii that often.  I agree that 650 a month along with 2000 MF is a big nut to crack.   I would not recommend that to our daughters either.  

However, there are some really nice Marriott locations that do not carry the price tag of HI either in initial cost or MF's.   The Barony for one cost 35K through Marriott (today's price) for an oceanside 2 bedroom unit platinum.  This trades extremely well and must be half the price of MOC.  MF are 895.

Now having said all that, actually we recommend to our daughters that they tell us where they want to go and we arrange for it either by reserving our owner week or placing a trade with II.  So far, they have had no burning desire to own on their own right and are quite willing to allow us to arrange their use of one of our weeks.   "Mama didn't raise no dummy's"  

When were are gone they will inherit and then they will have all they can handle.

Beverley


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## dboy1 (Apr 4, 2008)

Steamboat Bill

That's what I like to see in these conversations--Something that completely changes direction like your comment on blaming Canada. This site is a phenomonal resource for timeshare info, but sometimes people get a little too caught up in the numbers and calculations and forget that we are talking about vacations and fun:zzz:


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 4, 2008)

dboy1 said:


> Steamboat Bill
> 
> That's what I like to see in these conversations--Something that completely changes direction like your comment on blaming Canada. This site is a phenomonal resource for timeshare info, but sometimes people get a little too caught up in the numbers and calculations and forget that we are talking about vacations and fun:zzz:



Thanks...for those that missed it, here it is again.

Robin Williams sang South park's: Bigger, Longer, Uncut Original Soundtrack "Blame Canada" (nominated for best original soundtrack academy award 2000)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjoNucs20Vw

directly from the movie South Park - M.A.C (mothers against Canada) making there plan against Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds07XDaKhC4


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## ira g (Apr 4, 2008)

Lawlar said:


> Whatever happened to the traditional values of saving for the future and keeping debt to a minimum?  The savings rate in America is zero.  Many Americans are relying on Social Security and the equity in their homes to take care of them.  No one seems to worry about the future.  That is a big reason so few Americans have any true savings and why our economy is suffering.
> 
> My grandmother went through the depression and, fortunately, she taught me to save and invest.
> Frankly, I want to teach my grandkid that its important to save and invest for the future.
> ...



I agree with you. You spent IMHO an obscene amount of money for the purchase price, interest costs and MF's. We have 9+ weeks of timeshares that have cost us a total of $7380 with total annual MF's of $2020. We have vacationed in all Gold Crown(RCI) and 5 Star(II) resorts, including Calif, Las Vegas, Hilton Head, Hawaii, Sedona, and Scottsdale. As my grandmother taught me *BUYER BEWARE*. We are extremely happy with our units and would not travel any other way.


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## Lawlar (Apr 4, 2008)

*Not Alone*



ira g said:


> I agree with you. You spent IMHO an obscene amount of money for the purchase price, interest costs and MF's. We have 9+ weeks of timeshares that have cost us a total of $7380 with total annual MF's of $2020. We have vacationed in all Gold Crown(RCI) and 5 Star(II) resorts, including Calif, Las Vegas, Hilton Head, Hawaii, Sedona, and Scottsdale. As my grandmother taught me *BUYER BEWARE*. We are extremely happy with our units and would not travel any other way.



Thank you.  Its good to know I am not alone in my feelings about the value of Marriott's TSs at retail (rediculous) prices.  You did it the smart way.  Congratulations!


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## cp73 (Apr 4, 2008)

Lawlar said:


> Thank you.  Its good to know I am not alone in my feelings about the value of Marriott's TSs at retail (rediculous) prices.  You did it the smart way.  Congratulations!




Lawlar,

I dont think you are alone at all in your feelings. I would bet most of the tuggers here would agree with you.


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## pwrshift (Apr 4, 2008)

I'm not sure the slogan *Buyer Beware* is as good as *Buyer Be Aware* in the timeshare market.  That's a great benefit of TUG!  

Brian


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## jimf41 (Apr 4, 2008)

The original question I raised was not whether to buy a TS or what TS to buy or if buying a TS was worth it relative to other vacation options. It was simply to question the advice to never finance a TS.  Saving up for a purchase that you can’t afford currently is good advice. So is financing a big ticket item that you have made the decision to buy in the immediate future. The point is the decision to buy and the decision of when and how to buy are two separate decisions. As far as the traditional American value of saving for the future and keeping debt to a minimum, I’m sorry they went away with President Truman. Money in the bank gives some folks a warm fuzzy. To me it’s just money not being put to good use.  The current issue of Time magazine has a section called Milestones. It’s essentially an obituary column for notable people. There are seven people in it this time. Ages 52, 64, 66, 71, 86, 89, 91. The 52 year old was a former astronaut. How long do you think you are going to live? Life is not a dress rehearsal. You only get one shot at this. Next November I’m going to Ocean Pointe with two of my grandchildren. They are 5 and 2. When they get to be 30 I probably won’t be here any more. They won’t care or remember what I did with my money. They will remember making sandcastles on the beach with their grandpa though. IMO life doesn’t get much better than that.

If financing is your choice I would not advise going through Marriott.  At 13-16% they’d have to offer about 3-4 million points to make that worthwhile. 16% is the general usury limit here in New York. Other states allow as high as 50%. Usury is a complicated law but any time you finance something at a rate approaching or exceeding your states usury rate you should reconsider IMO.

Some posters have said that financing is bad because you can get a hotel cheaper. I strongly disagree with that one. First of all hotel rooms and TS’s are apples and oranges. No valid comparison IMO. Case in point, I’m going with another couple to MFC in 2009 during Pres week. The Marriott Reef would charge us $7575.12 for two waterview rooms. The MF at MFC are currently $993 for a 2bdm and all units have a waterview. In the Reef we might not even be in the same bldg let alone near each other. None of the normal TS amenities either. The Reef’s charge is immediate with no cancellation, refund or changes. I’ve stayed at the Reef and at MFC. While they each may be rated highly there is no comparison IMO. The Morningstar resort is a great hotel and the rooms are large. No kitchen or washer/dryer but it would cost $8557.92 for 2 waterview rooms. We could stay at the Holiday Inn but at $4460.40 for two waterview rooms I’ll still take my TS. I haven’t researched but I think Aruba and St Kitts would be similar during this period.

I could rent a 2bdrm at MFC for $3500 according to the lowest ad in Redweek.  That’s riverboat gambling IMO. I might rent from someone I’m familiar with on TUG or a personal friend but never from someone I didn’t know. What would you do if you showed up at the resort and the desk told you that the reservation was cancelled and the owner traded the week for points or deposited it with II?  An owner can change or cancel that guest certificate right up until the last minute. Sure you could sue and go through all the problems of getting your money back but even if you were successful where would you sleep for the next 7 nights? If you show up in St Thomas on Feb 14, 2009 without a reservation you’ll have two choices. Go to Kmart and buy a tent or beg the airline to give you a ticket home.

Buying a more inexpensive TS is an option. I’ve checked out the resorts owned by those who suggest it. I’ll stay with the big guys in the TS industry. They fit my needs better.

Finally, a lot of posters commented on the idea that it is bad to finance an investment. I agree. I’ve looked back a few times over the years and wished that I’d borrowed money to invest in one stock or another but that’s Monday morning quarterbacking. But let me put this in big letters so that nobody misunderstands. *BUYING A TIMESHARE IS NOT A FINANCIAL INVESTMENT.* Neither was putting in a swimming pool or adding a two car garage to my home. I certainly have enjoyed using both of those additions in the past 20 years.


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## Beverley (Apr 4, 2008)

lapdawg said:


> Even if you can make 9% onyour investment, you will still have to pay 15% capital gains tax, reducing your yield to around 7.6%.
> 
> Assuming you can average 9% you're only talking about a net yield of around $500/year.



Does this mean that if I sell at a loss I can declare a capital gains loss?  I actually never thought about capital gains  , but I bet I should.

Beverley


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## kjd (Apr 4, 2008)

*Jimf41--Amen brother!*

Good post.  You expressed my sentiments exactly.    Unfortunately, these threads are often inhabited by posters who are either suffering from buyers remorse or giving psuedo investment advice.  It is usually coupled with an arrogant self-aggrandizement by touting delusionary economic principles. They want to look at everything by keeping score.  I tire of the bad advice given to new buyers as well as to the rest of us.  I wonder how many of them who say they refuse to buy a depreciating asset (like a car), are continuing to ride a bicycle.

Every new and present owner should read your post.  Thanks.


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## tlwmkw (Apr 4, 2008)

Woo-eee!!  Everyone gets hot under the collar about this.  I have to say there are so many reasons for doing or not doing something and everyone will have an opinion.  Bottom line is to do what works for you and you feel comfortable with.  Some of us aren't comfortable with renting/buying from a stranger and relying on trust to get our vacation, some of us see the advantage of lower costs by buying resale/renting.  It takes all types.  I have to say though if someone didn't buy at "obscene" developer prices then there wouldn't be any time shares for us to use/rent in the first place.  Also a home can be a depreciating asset (as we have all recently seen in this country, as well as in other economies over the years) and no one seems to mind having a loan for this very large purchase.  Bottom line is- do what you feel comfortable with, enjoy it, and don't worry what others are doing.  As the OP notes, financing can be an option if you are able to afford/justify it and you feel it is a good use of your money.  Live and let live.


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## sdtugger (Apr 4, 2008)

*Purely Financial*

While I'll confess to being closer to Lawlar's view of saving for a purchase, my comments are purely financial.  In the end, if you can finance a timeshare that gives you a lower total cost than renting the same timeshare, then "financially" you would save money, assuming that financing a timeshare doesn't blow a hole in your budget that sinks you.

But, I think those opportunities are few and far between.  I suspect that most timeshare financers don't have home equity to tap or aren't able to play the credit card intro rate game, etc.  As a result, they are stuck with the near usurious rates charged by Marriott and others.  In that situation, it is a virtual certainty that buying a timeshare is a huge financial mistake.

The other financial reality of even the low cost financing is the risk of default.  If you tap your home equity for a low cost timeshare loan, what happens if you lose your job and can't make the payment?  Instead of merely defaulting on a timeshare loan, you are now at risk of losing your home.  The risks are less painful with credit card debt, but they are still there for a default.  You could easily blow your credit with a large credit card default.

As a result, my advice to my children will always be to rent until you can afford to pay cash.  I'm not saying deny yourselves the vacations, just wait for the purchase until you can afford it.


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## lapdawg (Apr 5, 2008)

Beverley said:


> Does this mean that if I sell at a loss I can declare a capital gains loss?  I actually never thought about capital gains  , but I bet I should.
> 
> Beverley



First of all, I am not an accountant, so I'm just answering based on my layman understanding.

If you have an investment that loses money, you can subtract that loss from other gains to reduce your capital gains tax.

I don't think a timeshare generally counts as an investment though.


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## GaryDouglas (Apr 5, 2008)

Beverley said:


> Does this mean that if I sell at a loss I can declare a capital gains loss? I actually never thought about capital gains  , but I bet I should.
> 
> Beverley


 
I think DaveM has stated in more than a few threads (and Dave knows his numbers) that if you lose money with a timeshare, there is no tax advantage. Whereas if you gain money, there is a tax liability. Government 1, Taxpayer 0...


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## jerseyfinn (Apr 6, 2008)

> But let me put this in big letters so that nobody misunderstands. BUYING A TIMESHARE IS NOT A FINANCIAL INVESTMENT.



Oh my goodness Jim, I'm surprised at these words. Every time that you plunk down your hard earned dollars on something, you are making an investment of some sort and consequences flow from that purchase decision. Granted, TS falls into a gray area, but it is indeed an investment in *destination travel*. Folks should be very aware of this reality before they make any decision to jump into TS.

And TS does indeed behave like real estate while at the same time it does not behave like real estate as so many choose to argue here. So anyone pondering a purchase should indeed be aware of all of the nuances & characteristics of TS before making the decision to jump into the pool.



> Bottom line is to do what works for you and you feel comfortable with.



The reason that the waters appear so muddy is because of what *tlwmkw* suggests. It all boils down to individuals and what their world view and their personal goals in life are. In other words, destination travel is not an absolute thing precisely definied and organized into absolute principles. Yes, it is governmed by procedures, but it is also an *aesthetic* which operates in a very real world where one should proceed cautiously. As the saying goes, _about facts I will argue emphatically, but of things aesthetic . . .  there is little to be gained_. This is why MVC works for so many different types of people. They can put their own spin and their own imprint on their ownership experience. You can be frugal or spendthrift, you can insist upon developer & MR points or you can take your stand on resale weeks. It's always an individual decision built upon the foundations of what TS is.

I prefer not to delve into issues of "lost opportunity cost" or "alternative investments", the MR Point ratio or any other absolutist maxims about what one should or should not do in TS. Other than standing by the maxim of *buyer beware* I believe that the best we can do here on TUG is to lay out all of the possibilities and let the individual decide if the shoe fits or not.

Hey, I agree that in general, one should avoid MVC financing as better deals are usualy to be found elsewhere. But I would be wrong to suggest that Marriott financing should never be a choice -- our own personal experience attests this.  Likewise I still suggest that an MVC developer purchase will indeed behave like a real estate investment for certain owners who pursue specific strategies of ownership. I'm not going to assail folks who feel otherwise, but I will indeed insist that there are MVC owners out there who have availed themselves of this situation or are in a positive equity position to do so. I'm not gonna say that this is a likely outcome that every owner can count on. That's why I point to relative costs of ownership as a more accurate measure of the wisdom of purchasing TS.

I still believe that you raise some good points about MVC. I do however want to caution anyone who is pondering a TS to see the big picture and figure out how/if you can wear the TS shoe. How you walk it is an individual choice. I myself am a combination of relativist, pragmatic-optimist, and a touch sentimentalist. The MVC shoe fits us well, though like others here, we've hit a bump or two along the way. 

When I look back at the family vacations we have enjoyed, where we have traveled, and what it has cost us, I can only say that we remain very satisfied with our MVC ownership experience. And a big part of that satisfaction lies in *how* we made it our own.  I think that many owners agree with this aspect of MVC  

safe & happy journeys to all

Barry


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## JimIg23 (Apr 6, 2008)

Having a family of five, IMHO there is no better way to go on vacation.  Marriott may be more money (even as a resale) and they will not become the type of asset one will be able to sell to help pay for the kids college, but to me, worth every penny anyway.  On the other side of the coin, we are at a point at our life where we can comfortably buy a Marriott without crippling us financially.  I would not buy a TS I could not pay fully within six months to one year, too many things could happen in one's life and trying to sell a TS you can lose a lot of money and put yourself in a bad bind.


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## Beverley (Apr 6, 2008)

GaryDouglas said:


> I think DaveM has stated in more than a few threads (and Dave knows his numbers) that if you lose money with a timeshare, there is no tax advantage. Whereas if you gain money, there is a tax liability. Government 1, Taxpayer 0...



Sounds about right.  I should have known this ... isn't it always 'Gov't 1, Taxpayer 0" :hysterical: Actually, I was just chatting with my sister on this today while she was doing her taxes.... She looked up Capital Gains and says that ... selling our house and reaping a profit we pay cap gains if we do not reinvest within 2 years ... but .... if we sell and have a loss we can not take a cap loss for a "home".   I have to imagine Dave is right. 

Thanks to you and lapdawg for your responses. 

Beverley


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## Beverley (Apr 6, 2008)

tlwmkw said:


> Woo-eee!!  Everyone gets hot under the collar about this.  I have to say there are so many reasons for doing or not doing something and everyone will have an opinion.  Bottom line is to do what works for you and you feel comfortable with.  Some of us aren't comfortable with renting/buying from a stranger and relying on trust to get our vacation, some of us see the advantage of lower costs by buying resale/renting.  It takes all types.  I have to say though if someone didn't buy at "obscene" developer prices then there wouldn't be any time shares for us to use/rent in the first place.  Also a home can be a depreciating asset (as we have all recently seen in this country, as well as in other economies over the years) and no one seems to mind having a loan for this very large purchase.  Bottom line is- do what you feel comfortable with, enjoy it, and don't worry what others are doing.  As the OP notes, financing can be an option if you are able to afford/justify it and you feel it is a good use of your money.  Live and let live.



I am glad to be of service ...  we have bought 5 at those "obscene" developer prices :rofl: I can only say in our defense is that they were at least at pre-construction prices and one was at Marriott's resale price which is also not exactly a bargain :hysterical: .  In case you ask why?  well as you did say very eloquently, something for everyone ... ease of operation is one reason, another was availability of what we wanted at the time we wanted it, and probably one was just plain unnecessary and perhaps we shouldn't have .. but we love them all and are traveling happy.

Beverley


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 6, 2008)

There "may" be a loophole.

In stocks you can write down your capital gais with capital loses. For example, if you gain $20,000 in Google and lose $5,000 in Yahoo, your net gain is only $15,000 net for the year.

I have never sold a timeshare for a loss, so I have no idea if it works the same as stocks, but it is worth asking.

Taxes on the long term gain of stocks, timseshares, etc. held for 366 days or longer are 15% unless it is your primary home and you lived in it for more than 2 years, you can have a tax free gain of $500,000.....hooray!...but most people never reach this level.


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## tlwmkw (Apr 6, 2008)

Beverley,

We also bought from developer and have to say we don't regret it for the same reasons that you mention.  As I said before you just have to do what works for you and not worry about how other people manage their vacation time.

tlwmkw


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## Beverley (Apr 6, 2008)

You are absolutely right!  

Beverley


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## AwayWeGo (Apr 7, 2008)

*Different Folks Have Different Character Wrinkles.*




tlwmkw said:


> We also bought from developer and have to say we don't regret it for the same reasons that you mention.  As I said before you just have to do what works for you and not worry about how other people manage their vacation time.


Me, for instance.  I am so guilt-driven & thrift-obsessed that even though I live a life of (by my standards) luxury & ease, I do it all pretty much on the cheap.  I mean, shux, I still stick the little leftover slivers of soap onto the new bars of soap.  Waste not.  Want not.  I still pick up a penny somebody has dropped on the sidewalk.  Nobody else I know will bend down for less than a nickel.  (Is that a practical illustration of inflation or what?)

If I were to win PowerBall tonight (unlikely, in that I never buy tickets), I might use some of the money to buy more timeshares, but I couldn't enjoy paying full freight for any of'm just because (thanks to TUG) I already know the same thing is out there resale for thousands less.   (Plus, there is no such thing as a "new" timeshare no matter how much I pay, so why throw money away paying full-freight regardless of how rich I might become?  In precisely the same vein, why tip toll-booth attendants?) 

If there were no such thing as resale timeshares, I would not be a timeshare owner, period, irrespective of my ability to afford any number of full-freight timeshares (not as many as that doctor who keeps on buying full-freight Marriotts, but lots nevertheless).  In that circumstance, assuming I were still hooked on luxury vacation accommodations for Motel 6 & Super 8 rates, I suppose I would go with _renta-renta-renta_.  

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## Dave M (Apr 7, 2008)

Steamboat Bill said:


> I have never sold a timeshare for a loss, so I have no idea if it works the same as stocks, but it is worth asking.


No, it's not the same. Losses on the sale of assets used for personal purposes (personal residence, cars, furniture and _timeshares_) are not deductible and cannot be used to offset taxable gains. See the TUG Income Taxes and Timeshares article in the TUG Advice section for more info.


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## MOXJO7282 (Apr 11, 2008)

Ok, I just received a bank offer, and if a similar pattern occurs, like in the last recession,(yes I think we're in one.) better ones should follow, that can  make financing a TS a wise move, if these special offers appear. 

I financed my MOW this way and have almost paid of the entire loan using mostly someone else's money.

One of my smaller credit limit banks has offered me a 2.99% "life of the loan" rate for a balance transfer or direct deposit. If it happens like in the past, 1.9% "life of the loan" rates will appear.

If you are someone who has good credit, has the income to pay down the loan, this is a way to basically use someone else's money to buy a TS, or any high ticket item that you might not want to lay out the cash for. 

I did this with my MOW, when I received a 1.9% for the $31K cost. I'm now under  a $9K balance and the interest that I've paid is peanuts compared to the value I've received.

I did purchase from Marriott, because at the time the points offered was still decent and it was a pre-construction deal, but you can buy a resale through this method as well, because banks will allow direct deposits to your checking account.. 

So if you see a 1.9% offer and have the income to pay down, its something to consider. Just make sure there is a small cap on transfer fee, when I bought there was none, and make sure to pay your bills on time. Other than that, its an easy way to purchase something special without laying out  a ton of cash.

Regards.


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## AwayWeGo (Apr 11, 2008)

*Maybe Not.  (Yet.)*




MOXJO7282 said:


> like in the last recession,(yes I think we're in one.)


Well, maybe 1's coming.  But we might not actually be there -- yet.   

Click here for a more reassuring view. 

Fret not. 

This too shall pass. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## vivalour (Apr 11, 2008)

pwrshift said:


> I'm more interested in how you averaged 9% growth in your stocks this year.
> 
> Brian



We use our brains. Try stocks with at least 2-3%  div., combined with 6%+ capital gain, e.g. in the TSX:  Russell Metals, Bell Canada, Teck Cominco, Crescent Point Energy, Yamana Gold, etc., etc.


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## Steamboat Bill (Apr 11, 2008)

vivalour said:


> We use our brains. Try stocks with at least 2-3%  div., combined with 6%+ capital gain, e.g. in the TSX:  Russell Metals, Bell Canada, Teck Cominco, Crescent Point Energy, Yamana Gold, etc., etc.



Another smart....er, rich Canadian. Their stock market is kicking our tail.

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=^GSPTSE&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=spy


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## kjd (Apr 12, 2008)

*Financing window*

I believe that we have a financing window of opportunity right now.  Lenders are now lowering their interest rates to customers with good credit history because of the sub prime crisis and the looming recession.  Those of us who have paid our bills promptly are in a position to benefit.  The problem is that your lender usually will not contact you to give you a lower rate.  Why should they?  You are paying them.  YOU HAVE TO CALL THEM AND ASK THEM TO DO IT.

Often banks will lower the rates rather than lose a good customer.  Especially these days when rates have dropped.  For example, you can lower your home equity loan rate.  I just lowered mine from prime + 2.5% to prime -1.5%.  

If you have a Marriott loan on your ts at 13.49% chances are you can get a fixed rate around 7% and reduce your payments from 10 years to five for about the same monthly payment.  You will have to go to another lender to get that rate.  I haven't heard of Marriott re-negotiating interest rates. The difference in savings will offset any loss of MRPs.

There are usually no closing costs or loan fees if you use your same lender. These days it's worth a try on any loan that you may have.


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