# [2008] Southcape Resort



## BM243923

Does anybody have any upated information about Southcape Resort in Mashpee.  I am thinking about purchasing a unit at this resort, but the reviews are not recent.  Any help would be appreciated.


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## Scott_Ru

We own a couple weeks at Southcape and enjoy it very much.  Typical Cape Cod resort (i.e., not fancy like Marriotts).  I think this was originally built to be apartments so the kitchens are quite complete, etc.

One caveat:  The resort was just purchased by another group.  I expect they will be doing some renovations (though my wife just came back from a week and said things were in good shape).  It's not clear whether the new owners will request an assessment -- evidently many current owners have not been paying their maintenance fees so there will be some collection issues.

Overall, we're pleased with Southcape.


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## BM243923

Scott

I see you own at Sea Mist also.  Southcape looks very much the same as Sea Mist Resort.  We stayed in the townhouse units last June at Sea Mist and enjoyed it very much.  How do the 2 compare.  We liked the pool at Sea Mist the size and how the pool is divided with shallow and a smaller deep end.
Looking forward to your comments.

Thanks


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## e.bram

Both TSes mentioned are inland. You should try to get an oceanfront TS(they exist) if you want to be on the Cape


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## Scott_Ru

We like both Sea Mist and Southcape.  Sea Mist units are 2 floors for the most part, with the bedrooms up some steep stairs.  That might deter some.

Both are quite servicable.  e.bram is obviously an "ocean person," but there is much to do in the Mashpee area and the ocean is not far away.

I think you'd be happy with either -- though we do prefer the pool at Sea Mist.


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## e.bram

As farI am concerned, either you are on the ocean or you are not(even 1 block). You can do everything an inlander can do plus you have the waterfront. Why not?


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## w.bob

I received a letter from the resort in Sept stating that New England Vacation Management Services purchased the unsold inventory at Southcape. They will manage the property and they wrote "we intend to make substantial improvements to the resort both physically & operationally." They also wrote that they are in the process of affiliating with the entire resort with RCI, Interval International and Festiva Resorts. 

The 2009 fees went up a small amount  but an additional $50.00 reeserve contribution was added. 

I have owned for about 5 years but have never stayed onsite. I have traded to Hawaii this past Sept. also to Orlando, HHI, Las Vegas. I have never had a problem trading my 1st week of August week.


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## Scott_Ru

Now things are getting clearer at Southcape.  (My wife is there now.)  Festiva Resorts bought up the unused units and is now claiming Southcape has been grossly mismanaged - they are facing large expenses (e.g., new septic system) and have no (as in "zero") reserves.  So there are two major issues:

1) There will definitely be a large increase in maintenance fees, rumored to be an additional $300 per week, PLUS a hefty assessment the size of which has yet to be determined.

2)  Festiva is a "points-based" system and they are moving Southcape to a points system, for yet another substantial fee, of course.  Thus, those of us who are involved at Southcape are now embroiled in the "fixed week, floating week, points" debate that pops up through these boards.

Anyway, that's what I know now.  (You can check out the Festiva group at www.festivaresorts.com.

Scott


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## Sou13

*Southcape Owners Beware of Outfield Marketing!*

I joined this forum today because I am alarmed to learn that Soutcape Resort and Club is now affiliated with the Festiva Adventure Club.

Since receiving a letter from the new "owners" along with an alarming increase in the maintenance assessment for 2009, I no longer recognize the homepage of my beloved resort!

How do Southcape interval owners get in touch with other Southcape interval owners?  We need to unite and fight off this hostile takeover!


http://southcaperesort.com/


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## Sou13

*Found at IVS Realty*

Welcome to IVS Realty


 Scams and Scalawags


 Our company president, Cliff Hagberg, has been actively involved in exposing timeshare resale scams for years. He's been involved as an expert witness in Ohio, Florida and Texas so far. If you know of a situation that looks like a scam, let us know and we'll publish it for other timeshare owners to learn from.

We've already been sued by one company so what's the worst that can happen? By the way, the owners of that company are currently in jail . . .

Scam # 1

"Hi. We want to buy your week and we'll pay cash. In order to know how much we should pay, we need to have a current appraisal for your week. If you don't have one, we can refer you to a company that will do an appraisal for you. We'll pay you 70% of the appraised value in cash."

Scam # 2

"Hi. We have a customer who wants to buy your week. They will pay $X for your week but first, we need you to put down some money in order to start the title search, get the paperwork done, etc., etc."

Do these sound familiar? There are more creative approaches to separate you from your money every week. All of them have one thing in common. They want you to send them money before anything happens. Typically, they want you to send them money by Fed Ex or something other than the post office in order to avoid mail fraud charges.

We're sure there are legitimate reasons why a company might want to charge you a fee prior to their selling your week but you still need to be careful. For example, We've been selling real estate for over thirty years. Until we got involved with timeshare, we had never seen any broker require an appraisal as a condition of accepting a listing. There's nothing wrong or illegal about a broker requiring an appraisal before you list a week but think about it for a minute. Why do they need one? If they know what they're doing, they should already have a pretty good idea of what your week is worth. If they don't know about what your week is worth, why would you do business with them. If they say they need it for a buyer, I can tell you that in 17 years selling timeshare, I have never had a buyer ask if there was an appraisal on a week they were considering buying. On the other hand, if you wanted to pay me $400 to $500 for a piece of paper that says your week is worth X amount of dollars, I'll gladly take your money! Just make the check out to IVS Realty and send it on in. No, really, just send me a check. Please, I could use the money. Just write payable to IVS Realty, put it in an envelope and mail it right away. You know, I'll bet I don't get a single check and I wouldn't send anyone a check to do an appraisal on a timeshare week either. How the heck is an appraiser in Florida going to appraise a week in Maine without actually visiting the resort? Further, if they're going to do a real appraisal, there's no way they can do it for $500. So, seriously, instead of sending them a check, just send it on to me and I promise you I'll make good use of it!

Scam #3

Recently, we heard of a new scam making the circuit.  A company calls you and says that they have a buyer for your week.  They need you to send them a copy of your deed and, in order to pay you quickly, they need your bank account and routing number!  Now I don't know for sure why they need your routing number and bank account, but I can't believe that people would give them that information, but they do!  Don't you do it though, it's just asking for trouble.


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## Sou13

*Cliff Hagberg*



Sou13 said:


> Welcome to IVS Realty
> 
> Our company president, Cliff Hagberg, has been actively involved in exposing timeshare resale scams for years. He's been involved as an expert witness in Ohio, Florida and Texas so far. If you know of a situation that looks like a scam, let us know and we'll publish it for other timeshare owners to learn from.



In October of 2008 a letter was included in the assessment mailed to Southcape interval owners.  It was from Cliff Hagberg, Managing General Partner of New England Vacation Services, LLC.  The letter informed us that we would be contacted by Outfield Marketing.

In November I was contacted twice, informing me that Southcape Resort had been "sold" and that representatives would be in my area in December to meet with me in my home to explain the "changes" at Southcape.

I declined and informed the callers that I would be at Southcape in November and would prefer to meet with the sales representative while there.

As a result of this meeting, I have a lot of info to pass along.  My first tidbit is this:  If Cliff Hagberg is president of IVF, why is NEVS employing Outfield Marketing to contact current owners?

Currently the unsold inventory is listed at http://www.ivsrealty.com/scinv.htm but that doesn't tell all you need to know.  It's not just the weeks, it's in which phase of the resort, Southcape I or Southcape II.  There's a big difference!  Southcape I is affiliated with Interval International, Southcape II is with RCI.  You can't trade from I to II, and if you own an interval at Southcape I you know why you don't want the "trustees" to take over your interval.

Here's another tidbit:  New England Vacation Services is located in Texas!  But you can't find it by doing an internet search.  Here's the address:
New England Vacation Services, LLC
135 E. Hickory
Denton, TX 76201
800-436-9094

Stay tuned!


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## Sou13

*The Plot Thickens*



Sou13 said:


> Here's another tidbit:  New England Vacation Services is located in Texas!  But you can't find it by doing an internet search.  Here's the address:
> New England Vacation Services, LLC
> 135 E. Hickory
> Denton, TX 76201
> 800-436-9094
> 
> Stay tuned!



Realizing that in my haste I might have posted the wrong telephone #, I found the business card given me by Greg Hughes, Outfield Marketing's on-site sales rep, and, much to my surprise, the address of Outfield Marketing and New England Vacation Services is one and the same!


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## Sou13

*2009 Special Assessment*

Today I received a "Special Assessment" of $400, due March 1, 2009, deemed "necessary" by the "Community Association, Inc." "Board of Trustees" which, "keeping their fiduciary responsibilities foremost in mind, has discussed, voted and approved a Special Assessment of $400.00 per interval."

SOS!  SOS! SOS!  Who are these trustees and who gave them the authority to levy this special assessment?

For at least two years we have had no reports of Community Association meetings or elections.  If anyone reading these posts is an interval owner, PLEASE email rcassidy@southcaperesorts.com and ask for the minutes of meetings and by-laws of the association!

For a discussion of how the Festiva Adventure Club has taken over the Community Association, go to http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85788&page=2
and learn how this has happened at the Sandcastle and other resorts now affiliated with the "Club"!


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## Sou13

*"Why We Need a Special Assessment "*

Here is the letter that accompanied the $400.00 "Special Assessment"

Why We Need a Special Assessment​
Southcape Resort enjoys its great reputation as a vacation resort serving the needs of owners, exchange and rental guests as well. We have thousands of people coming through our doors each year and meeting the wants and needs of that many is a never-ending challenge. 

We've recently made great strides at Southcape. We're adding wireless internet throughout the resort, installing a new computer system, replacing the old and outdated telephone system and replacing the old work-out equipment. Our collection activities have brought in tens of thousands of dollars in delinquent maintenance fees and those activities are continuing. 

Over the past twelve to eighteen months, the Resort's comment cards as well as comments received from the exchange companies and owners have held a common theme and that is: The Resort is showing it's age-with respect tothe-condominium interiors and exteriors in Condo 1 and the exteriors in Condo II. While the majority of the comments are complimentary to the overall vacation experience, it is the other comments that cannot be ignored. In addition, there is a fair.~unt of deferred maintenance that has not been able to be remedied out of the maintenance fees. It is imperative that the Resort retain the reputation it has earned by the Association focusing on the wants and needs of owners, exchange guests and rental guests. 

The value of each owner's method of use is directly affected by the quality of goods in the condominiums and the overall appearance of the Resort. An owner's use and enjoyment is the easiest to understand. We must keep up the resort's standards for the benefit of our owners. The Resort's rating by the exchange companies is based on comment cards received from people that have stayed at Southcape Resort and is the number one criteria for Southcape owners wishing to exchange out. From a rental perspective, the overall condition of our Resort is what drives the rental rates and repeat business. 

Above and beyond the regular capital improvement projects, many additional improvements must be made in order to keep up with the resort industry standards. Those improvements to the Resort need to include, but not be limited to, such projects as: 
Replace furnit~~-~d fixtures iQtbeinteriors --- New carpeting and flooring 
Replace rotting siding on four buildings Replace leaking roofs in four buildings 
Paint and repair trim work throughout the Resort 
Upgrade existing septic systems to conform to DEP regulations 

The need for these renovations is real and the cost associated with each project will not go down. The longer the improvements are delayed the greater the cost in the future. Your Board of Trustees, keeping their fiduciary responsibilities foremost in mind, has discussed, voted and approved a Special Assessment of $400.00 per interval. The Special Assessment and payment options are included on the. enclosed invoice which is due by March 1, 2009 to permit us to begin the exterior work before the start of the summer season. Thank you again for your continued support of Southcape Resort.


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## Sou13

*Annual Owner's Meeting Minutes: May 17, 2008*

*Southcape Resort & Club*

Annual Owner's Meeting Minutes: May 17, 2008 
12:00 Noon, SouthCape Resort.​
*Present:* 
14 owners attended the meeting.

*Proceedings :* 
Meeting called to order at 12:00 Noon by Robert Woods, trustee.

Review of 2007 financial statement. 
It was noted that there was an increase in real estate taxes of approximately $10,000. There was also a significant increase in utility charges. 
-.:... 
Outline of renovations completed since the last meeting: interior and exterior of units 25 -31 completely renovated. Pre-dipped, high-grade shingles used on exterior. All decayed 
(trim replaced and painted. Interior refurbished in "beach-cottage" style with higher end furnishings.

Outdoor pool furniture was replaced for the upcoming season.

DVD players have been purchased and will be placed in all units during the upcoming weeks.

Whiskey barrels, used as flower planters, are in the process of being replaced throughout Condo I. 

Upon a review of rental income, it was noted that 2007 was an exceptionally good year. We are, however, experiencing a drop in demand for 2008. This appears to be the current general experience of the hospitality industry on Cape Cod.

The Town of Mashpee is not allowing timeshare owners to purchase seasonal resident beach permits this year. Several owners present intended to call the town to voice their disapproval. 

The meeting was concluded with a walk-through of units 25-31. All present were pleased with this year's renovation project.

The meeting was adjourned at 1: 10p.m.

*The Town of Mashpee has since revised its position on beach permit purchase, to allow timeshare owners to purchase resident stickers.*


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## gravityrules

A little detective work ...

Take a look at that Denton, TX address on Google maps street view:

135 E. Hickory Denton, TX 76201

Here's the Denton County Appraisal District info can be found at:  http://www.dentoncad.com

The owner is shown as Outfield Marketing Ltd with a 2008 appraised value of $1050, description as 'personal property, sales office' ... 

The actual property is:

Owner Name
    Major League Development, Ltd 
Situs Address
    135 E Hickory St  
Legal Description
    Alsup Addn Blk 1 Lot 2 
2008 Certified Appraised Value
    $172,466

From http://216.60.44.74/TX/Denton/default.aspx
you can find that the property was acquired by Major League Development, LTD a Texas limited partnership in 2003, with STEM Management LLC as General Partner.


From BBB:

Business Contact and Profile
Name: 	Outfield Marketing
Phone: 	(940) 566-5127
Address: 	135 E Hickory St
	Denton, TX 76201-4215
Principal: 	Larry Fritz, Vice-President
File Open Date: 	January 2008
TOB Classification: 	Management Consultants
BBB Accreditation: 	This company is not a BBB Accredited business.

BBB Rating

Based on BBB files, this business has a BBB Rating of B-.
Reasons for this rating include:

    * BBB does not have sufficient information to determine how long this business has been operating.
    * BBB does not have sufficient background information on this business. 

Hmmm, hard to miss the baseball theme.
And this is a long way from New England ...


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## Sou13

*Thanks!*

Thanks for the detective work!  This is something I need help doing, and all the help we can get.


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## judyjht

My brother owns a good red summer week at Southcape - they plan to use it every year - should he be worried about the maintenance fees jumping on a regular basis - not the assessment - the regular maintenance fees.


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## Sou13

*In Unity There Is Strength?*



judyjht said:


> My brother owns a good red summer week at Southcape - they plan to use it every year - should he be worried about the maintenance fees jumping on a regular basis - not the assessment - the regular maintenance fees.



First we need to find a way to connect with other interval owners, then we need to make it a priority to be present at the next Community Association meeting.  I hope that there are others in this Timeshare Users Group who are active in their owners' association and know how to advise us.

So far I've located three other interval owners, out of thousands who are coughing up the cash or converting to "points" and don't realize what that means to the future of Southcape Resort.

I was told by Greg Hughes, Outfield Marketing on-site sales rep, that owners can *expect* to see ever-higher maintenance fees and "special assessments" which is how he scares or dupes owners into "converting" to "points" by misleading them into believing they will be better off with Festiva.

I can't do this alone.  I have more documents to scan and copy into this discussion, some of which might get me into trouble.  I read the 12-page discussion Festiva is now managing my resort, how bad is it going to get and searched for other Southcape discussions before committing my time to this project.  I wish I'd joined this Group 15 years ago!

Stay tuned!


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## Scott_Ru

Thanks for your efforts Sou13.  Given the weekly nature of time sharing there are LOTS and LOTS of owners and if we can get together we can influence things.  My observation is that Southcape *does* need a lot of renovation and improvement.  So I am not that upset with the Special Assessment if it is used well ... and I own 3 weeks there!


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## Sou13

*Letter from Cliff Hagberg*

Dear Southcape Owner

We have a lot to tell you about this year and we hope you'll take the time to read this newsletter so that we can bring you completely up to date. 

First, we'd like to inform you that *New England Vacation Services, LLC* has purchased the unsold inventory at the Southcape from Vince Earth and  Robert Woods. New England Vacation Services, LLC is made up of a group of experienced timeshare professionals with solid backgrounds in resort management, sales and marketing. 

We have been trying to purchase the inventory for many years and we're very excited about the future of Southcape Resort. The resort will be managed by *New England Vacation Management Services, LLC *and we intend to make substantial improvements to the resort both physically and operationally. My name is Cliff Hagberg and I'm the Managing General Partner. I'm a native Cape Codder and I have been involved in managing resorts across the U. S. and Europe for the past twenty years. I have been an owner at Southcape myself so I'm intimately familiar with the resort. In this newsletter, I want to talk with you about our plans for the resort. 

As part of our continuing effort to keep you informed about new things at Southcape, we're delighted to inform you that we have affiliated Southcape Resort with one of the premier vacation companies in the country - Festiva Resorts. We are in the process of afflliating the entire resort with RCI Interval International and Festiva Resorts to give you as many vacation opportunities as possible.

*We will be happy to answer any questions you may have about these exciting, new vacation options and Outfield Marketing will be contacting you directly to explain the new benefits and what they mean to you as an owner. When Outfield contacts you, please know that they are working directly with resort management for your benefit. Outfield will also be able to update you on the financial situation at Southcape Resort.*​ 
We need to talk about the realities of the financial situation at Southcape Resort. The fact of the matter is that the current maintenance fees do not cover the operating budget of the resort. The main reason for this is that we have a large number of owners who do not pay their maintenance fees. We have a plan in place to deal with this effectively for the first time. We have contracted with Monterey Financial Services to begin a professional collection effort with the delinquent owners. Those collection efforts have already begun. We need to do this to generate income for the resort. 

For years, the resort operated without a real budget. Without a budget, it is impossible to calculate what the maintenance fees should be. For the past few years, the resort only increased maintenance fees a small amount and the result has been that there is not enough money to pay the bills. For 2009  we have created a detailed budget that will pay all of the bills for the entire year. With NEVMS, Southcape Resort will have a professional management company assisting resort management with controlling the operating budget. 

While we realize that this years maintenance fee represents a significant increase, it is still lower than many similar resorts. For example, Brewster Green maintenance fees are as high as $740.00 and the Ponds at Foxhollow are as high as $811.00. Holiday Estates is $680.00 so the new maintenance fees are not at all out of line with other resorts. Maintaining a resort can be expensive and the new maintenance fees will allow us to do that. 

The next financial issue we need to tell you about concerns the resort's reserves for capital expenditures. Simply put, there are no reserves. Improvements to the resort have been paid out of the operating budget. This has not only resulted in a shortfall in operating income but has caused the resort to make improvements in a piece meal fashion without an overall plan. We are changing that situation immediately. 

We need to fund the reserve accounts so that, when a major repair is needed, the money will be there. We have begun that process by including a payment into the reserve account to begin building up the resort's reserves. You will notice that by basing the budget on the number of owners who are current in their maintenance fees, when the weeks from the delinquent owners begin paying, we can deposit that money right into a reserve account to fund the improvements. This will take some time but it is part of our overall operational plan. 

The final fmancial area we need to address is the timely payment of maintenance fees. Currently, the maintenance fees are due when received.  As of January 31, 2009, a late fee of $50.00 will be added to accounts that are not paid.  After March 1, 2009, if the maintenance fee bill is still unpaid, the account will be turned over to Monterey Financial and additional collection fees will be added to the outstanding balance and your account will be blocked from usage. While we are reluctant to do this, it is critically important for budgeting purposes that we know, as early as possible, how much money we will have to run the resort every year.  Owners who are late in paying their maintenance fees seriously affect that budgeting process so it is very important for you and the resort to pay your maintenance fee when it is due. Your cooperation in paying your maintenance fee bill when received will greatly assist us in bringing financial stability to Southcape Resort and we sincerely thank you for you continued cooperation.

Over the coming months, we will be developing a detailed plan of improving the resort and how we can complete the upgrade of the resort. When that process has been completed, we will be sending you a copy of that plan. While it's impossible for us to take phone calls from thousands of owners, we will be setting up a brand new web site for Southcape Resort. As part of the website, there will be a special area just for owners where you can go to get current information on exactly what's going on at Southcape. We will give you the information on the new web site in our next update. 

The area we're most excited about is bringing to Southcape something it's never had before. With the help of Outfield Marketing, Southcape Resort will now have the services of a professional sales and marketing company. This is critically important in order to bring in new owners and generate maintenance fees. 

Over the next several months. vou will be hearing from us on a regular basis as we introduce new plans for the improvement of the resort. We firmly believe that Southcape Resort can be one of the premier resorts in New England and we're dedicated to making that happen. While we know that you may have questions, if at all possible, please email them to us at rcassidy@southcaperesort.com. With thousands of owners, it is just physically impossible for us to speak with all of you and email helps us respond to you in a timely fashion. 

Thanks for your continued support and all of us here at Southcape look forward to welcoming you back next year.

Sincerely 
Cliff Hagberg 
New England Vacation Management Services, LLC


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## Aussiedog

Sou13 said:


> First, we'd like to inform you that *New England Vacation Services, LLC* has purchased the unsold inventory at the Southcape from Vince Earth and  Robert Woods. New England Vacation Services, LLC is made up of a group of experienced timeshare professionals with solid backgrounds in resort management, sales and marketing.



Just a question - is the assumption here that the unsold inventory was of sufficient size to give them some kind of super-majority on the HOA board, and that is how they are able to take over?  

That is amazing to me - that a resort that has been around this long has this much unsold inventory.  Although for all I know this is a typical control strategy by developers of non-chain resorts.   

Ann


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## Laurie

In case anyone has missed the connection, Southcape's situation is the same as Sandcastle's, and you can read more here:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85788


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## theo

*Not exactly...*



Laurie said:


> In case anyone has missed the connection, Southcape's situation is the same as Sandcastle's...



Actually, the two situations are really not the same, except for the common experience of the appearance of Festiva into their pictures. 

With far fewer unsold / foreclosed weeks existing at Sandcastle for Festiva to acquire and / or just "take over", Festiva will have a much steeper hill to climb at Sancastle in order to gain a controliing interest (assuming, of course, that deeded owners at Sandcastle don't fall for the "give up your deed, convert to Adventure Club points --and *pay* us a few grand to do so" scheme, and instead choose to hold on to their deeded ownerships). 
At Southcape, I personally tend to believe that it will be much easier for Festiva to gain the upper hand and a controlling interest there.


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## Russ45

*Special assessment*

I own one interval at Southcape and bought it two years ago.  I received the special assessment notice too but a couple of things struck me as odd, first there was only an invoice and a generic letter which was unsigned and not on letterhead with no supporting documents attached, which is not what I would expect from an actual property manager, or any business for that matter.  I emailed rcassidy to question the legitimacy of this letter and asked for the by-laws, meeting minutes of the board and board member names, but have not heard back yet.  Frankly, my first reaction was that this was a scam as some sort of phishing expedition because of the lack of identity and the short period they gave to pay or else!  If it isn't a scam, I am not planning on paying for a special assessment unless I see some sort of guarantee this money will be used on the resort itself and the meeting minutes and by-laws.  If I can't get any information or at least acknowlegement from NEV I will probably have my lawyer look into it or turn it over to the AG's office.  Their special assessment is 67% of the entire yearly operating budget which is very suspicious and I would like for them to show me they are putting in $500,000 to $1,000,000 worth of improvements this year, which is what they would collect if everyone pays this.  Anyone else get the feeling that this isn't quite legit?


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## theo

*Wise to question...*



Russ45 said:


> I own one interval at Southcape and bought it two years ago.  I received the special assessment notice too but a couple of things struck me as odd, first there was only an invoice and a generic letter which was unsigned and not on letterhead with no supporting documents attached, which is not what I would expect from an actual property manager, or any business for that matter.  I emailed rcassidy to question the legitimacy of this letter and asked for the by-laws, meeting minutes of the board and board member names, but have not heard back yet.  Frankly, my first reaction was that this was a scam as some sort of phishing expedition because of the lack of identity and the short period they gave to pay or else!  If it isn't a scam, I am not planning on paying for a special assessment unless I see some sort of guarantee this money will be used on the resort itself and the meeting minutes and by-laws.  If I can't get any information or at least acknowlegement from NEV I will probably have my lawyer look into it or turn it over to the AG's office.  Their special assessment is 67% of the entire yearly operating budget which is very suspicious and I would like for them to show me they are putting in $500,000 to $1,000,000 worth of improvements this year, which is what they would collect if everyone pays this.  Anyone else get the feeling that this isn't quite legit?




If memory serves, I seem to (admittedly vaguely) recall reading one or more  post(s) in which Southcape owners mentioned receiving "odd and questionable" bills from some individual rogue entity asserting himself to be a "trustee" of some sort. A little searching around might pull up some of those threads for you. 

It was not a "phishing" scheme, per se, but evidently some sort of effort to keep / divert funds from the actual HOA (as I recall it, anyhow). 

Odds of getting AG attention or involvement at this juncture would likely be somewhere squarely between slim and none, but it's certainly your right and prerogative to try. Meanwhile, you're certainly wise to look further into the source and legitimacy of the "odd and questionable" bill....


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## Sou13

*RE: Wise to question...*



theo said:


> If memory serves, I seem to (admittedly vaguely) recall reading one or more  post(s) in which Southcape owners mentioned receiving "odd and questionable" bills from some individual rogue entity asserting himself to be a "trustee" of some sort. A little searching around might pull up some of those threads for you.
> 
> It was not a "phishing" scheme, per se, but evidently some sort of effort to keep / divert funds from the actual HOA (as I recall it, anyhow).



This may have been another resort.  But the special assessment is for real, and is the way Outfield Marketing is scaring deeded interval week(s) owners into "converting" to Festiva points.


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## sullco

Theo--hello.

I wouldn't be so quick to dash the hopes that the Mass AG would intercede here.  The office has a track record of aggressively pursuing timeshare fraud and, since Cape Cod is one of the cradles of US timeshare, they have been chasing bad guys there successfully for a while now.

POINTS  ARE CRAP--this should be a sampler placed on the wall of every timeshare owner.  But, from what I have read, FESTIVA POINTS ARE META-CRAP.

I do hope that no one falls for this and that Festiva leaves quickly with its tail/tale between its lying legs.


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## Sou13

*I'm afraid its' already too late!*

Has anyone tried getting info from rcassidy@southcaperesort.com?  If so, can you answer any of my questions?

 1]Who are the "board of trustees"?
 2]Who are the members of the "Community Association, Inc."?
 3]How many deeded interval owners are there, and how do we get in touch with them?
 4]Are the requests for improvements coming from deeded owners or from renters or traders from other resorts or the Festiva Adventure Club?
 5]How did NEVS take over "ownership" of the resort?  How does this give the "new kids on the block" _carte blanche_ to assess the longtime owners who have been faithfully paying their maintenance fees on time to raise thir fees and demand that they cough up additional "special" assessments?
 6]Why did Vince Earth and Robert Woods let this happen?  Were they made an offer they couldn't refuse?
 7]What are the bylawsthem? of the Association?  Why don't I have a copy of them?
 8]Who were the 14 members who attended the last unadvertised meeting?   Were they all members?
 9]Do deeded interval members have a vote?  How do they even find out what's on the ballot or agenda?
10]Is any of this subject to state or federal oversight?  Is it even legal?
11]Who is paying for the services of Outfield Marketing and Monterey Financial Services?
12]Who gets the contracts for repairs and upgrades?  Are we getting the best bang for our buck?
13]Do we need Internet access when we're supposed to be on vacation?  We can go to Starbuccks on Mashpee Commons if we're so desperate for our daily "fix"!
14]Does the resort need a complete overhaul?  What happened to the Cape Codlook that was its unique charm?  Shouldn't that be its attraction to interval owners within the II and RCI exchange clubs?
15]Is exchanging within the Festiva Adventure club really *better* than exchanging within II or RCI?  How is it "better" to give up your week in the unit of your choice if you can't even be sure what unit you'll be able to get, when, or where?


----------



## Sou13

*And then there's the BIG question:*

16]How much of the cost of giving up your deeded week at Southcape and coughing up thousands of dollars for "points" in the Festiva Adventure Club is going toward the maintenance and operating expenses of *Southcape Resort and Club*?


----------



## Laurie

theo said:


> Actually, the two situations are really not the same, except for the common experience of the appearance of Festiva into their pictures.
> 
> With far fewer unsold / foreclosed weeks existing at Sandcastle for Festiva to acquire and / or just "take over", Festiva will have a much steeper hill to climb at Sancastle in order to gain a controliing interest (assuming, of course, that deeded owners at Sandcastle don't fall for the "give up your deed, convert to Adventure Club points --and *pay* us a few grand to do so" scheme, and instead choose to hold on to their deeded ownerships).
> At Southcape, I personally tend to believe that it will be much easier for Festiva to gain the upper hand and a controlling interest there.


OK, perhaps I should have used the word "similar" rather than "same" ... but they're the same players all around: same sellers, same buyers, same new management company, same sales rep, same tactics. I believe the sale of inventory occured as one transaction or at least were connected somehow, and I was already transferred to the phone line of the same Greg Hughes when I called the Sandcastle office, and I heard the same schpeil. I'm not sure what the ownership percentages are at Sandcastle, do you? But I don't think Sandcastle owners have much control over the fate of that resort, either. No one has to surrender deeds, I get that, but I do think it would behoove Southcape and Sandcastle owners to share information...


----------



## gravityrules

Sou13 said:


> Dear Southcape Owner
> 
> ...
> 
> First, we'd like to inform you that *New England Vacation Services, LLC* has purchased the unsold inventory at the Southcape from Vince Earth and Robert Woods. ..
> 
> _Robert Woods is listed in another post as an association 'trustee'.  It is apparently  the trustees who 'sold you out' and abdicated their fiduciary responsibility.  And where is the accountability for the 1.2 million dollar sales price shown on the city of Mashpee's property records? _
> 
> _Who is New England Vacation Services?  Clifford Hagberg, registered as an LLC 4/8/2008 in The Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
> 
> Who is NEW ENGLAND VACATION MANAGEMENT SERVICES, LLC?  Clifford Hagberg, registered as an LLC 07/08/2008 in The Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
> 
> IVS Realty - Clifford Hagberg_


_


Who is Outfield Marketing?  An office opened in Denton Texas in January 2008.
_


----------



## Sou13

*Who is Cliff Hagberg?*

I should've done a "Search" for Hagberg before posting what I've posted so far.  If I'd thought to do so, I'd have found this:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=601876&highlight=Hagberg#post601876

Yes, Southcape and Sandcastle have a lot in common and need to share as much info as possible.  Thanks for all the help, gravityrules, Laurie, and especially to tombo who has contributed so much to enlighten me in my search for answers:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=601993#post601993


----------



## Sou13

*Let's not leave out Rambler65!*

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showth...cation+Services+Outfield+Marketing#post628401


----------



## Sou13

*Google Satellite View*



gravityrules said:


> A little detective work ...
> 
> Take a look at that Denton, TX address on Google maps street view:
> 
> 135 E. Hickory Denton, TX 76201
> 
> Here's the Denton County Appraisal District info can be found at:  http://www.dentoncad.com
> 
> The owner is shown as Outfield Marketing Ltd with a 2008 appraised value of $1050, description as 'personal property, sales office' ...
> 
> The actual property is:
> 
> Owner Name
> Major League Development, Ltd
> Situs Address
> 135 E Hickory St
> Legal Description
> Alsup Addn Blk 1 Lot 2
> 2008 Certified Appraised Value
> $172,466
> 
> From http://216.60.44.74/TX/Denton/default.aspx
> you can find that the property was acquired by Major League Development, LTD a Texas limited partnership in 2003, with STEM Management LLC as General Partner.
> 
> 
> From BBB:
> 
> Business Contact and Profile
> Name: 	Outfield Marketing
> Phone: 	(940) 566-5127
> Address: 	135 E Hickory St
> Denton, TX 76201-4215
> Principal: 	Larry Fritz, Vice-President
> File Open Date: 	January 2008
> TOB Classification: 	Management Consultants
> BBB Accreditation: 	This company is not a BBB Accredited business.
> 
> BBB Rating
> 
> Based on BBB files, this business has a BBB Rating of B-.
> Reasons for this rating include:
> 
> * BBB does not have sufficient information to determine how long this business has been operating.
> * BBB does not have sufficient background information on this business.
> 
> Hmmm, hard to miss the baseball theme.
> And this is a long way from New England ...



http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=kickblockers&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl


----------



## Sou13

*Sandcastle*

Does anyone have any idea why the Sandcastle isn't included in the Festiva Family of Resorts?  http://www.festivaresorts.com/index.php


----------



## Rambler65

Sou13 said:


> Does anyone have any idea why the Sandcastle isn't included in the Festiva Family of Resorts?



My guess would be lack of Sandcastle weeks. Sandcastle has had a part time sales rep on site for the last ten years. She sold foreclosed and unwanted Sandcastle weeks.   Almost all of the desirable Sandcastle weeks are owned, so what could Festiva offer to their Adventure Club?

In Festiva (Outfield Marketing) Sales pitch meetings, Festiva has been telling owners that the Sandcastle needs to be brought up to Festiva Standards (now there's an oxymoron) before it can join the Festiva resort family.  I think it's more Festivas sales BS.

Outfield has told Sandcastle owners that the resort will be part of the Festiva family in 2010 after upgrades have been made.  I think they are just hoping they can swindle enough deeded weeks out of Sandcastle owners to offer Adventure Club members a chance to stay at the Sandcastle.


----------



## gravityrules

*ARDA press release*

http://www.arda.org/Content/Navigat...ssReleases/November2008/081121_Sandcastle.pdf

Here's 2 quotes from this 12/04/2008 ARDA press release ...

_SPI’s Resort Management Software Suite was recently purchased by New England Vacation Management (NEVM) for *two of their projects, Sandcastle Resort and Southcape Resort & Club.*

About New England Vacation Management
New England Vacation Management, based on Cape Cod, Massachusetts, provides full-service resort management services, principally for timeshare projects no longer in active sales. These services include human resources, centralized reservations and on-site management, including HOA and owner services such as rentals and resales. *NEVM’s two
properties mentioned above, located in Massachusetts, are Sandcastle Condominiums in Provincetown and Southcape Resort & Club in Mashpee.*_


----------



## Sou13

*Massachusetts Public Records*

Is it OK to offer the public records by email to anyone who requests them?  I have no problem giving the email address I used for these forums and will be happy to pass them on!

950-1.pdf (51KB), 950-2.pdf (50KB), 950-3.pdf (51KB), 950-7.pdf (50KB), 950-31.pdf (51KB), 950-54.pdf (51KB), 950-55.pdf (51KB), International Vacation Sales.pdf (167KB), New England Vacation Management.pdf (154KB), New England Vacation Services.pdf (154KB)

I want to give credit where credit is due, so please come forward with your OK before I proceed!

Thanks again, You Know Who You Are!


----------



## Sou13

gravityrules said:


> A little detective work ...
> 
> Take a look at that Denton, TX address on Google maps street view:
> 
> 135 E. Hickory Denton, TX 76201
> 
> Here's the Denton County Appraisal District info can be found at:  http://www.dentoncad.com
> 
> The owner is shown as Outfield Marketing Ltd with a 2008 appraised value of $1050, description as 'personal property, sales office' ...
> 
> The actual property is:
> 
> Owner Name
> Major League Development, Ltd
> Situs Address
> 135 E Hickory St
> 
> 
> Hmmm, hard to miss the baseball theme.
> And this is a long way from New England ...



That would explain the "Outfield" Marketing part.  That's *WAY* out in the outfield!

But New England Vacation Services, LLC, is found to be registered in Hyannis.  Now, what about "Monterey Financial" Services?


----------



## Sou13

*Southcape II*

I see from the description of Lodging/Room Amenities that there are no loft units.  As I suspected, the available units are most likely all in Southcape II, which is affiliated with RCI.

As a Southcape I deeded interval owner, I cherish my deed and hope that others will do the same.  I hope what's going on here is illegal and that the AG will be willing to look into it.

I'm not a Massachusetts resident and lack the expertise to pursue this.  I'll do what I can to share whatever info I can provide.


----------



## theo

*Not illegal...*

inadvertent duplicate post -- sorry. Actual post follows below...


----------



## theo

*Not illegal...*



Sou13 said:


> I hope what's going on here is illegal and that the AG will be willing to look into it.
> 
> I'm not a Massachusetts resident and lack the expertise to pursue this.  I'll do what I can to share whatever info I can provide.



Even though I have only contempt for Festiva, there is frankly *no* illegality in *any* business entity attempting to lawfully acquire a greater (or even a controlling) interest in another business entity. Hostile takeovers occur every day in the business world and there is no "timeshare exception". 

Festiva (or its sales / marketing weasels) will not have crossed any legal "lines in the sand" until or unless they ever falsely assert to owners that said owners must "convert" (i.e., forfeit their deeded ownership) and buy into the "Festiva Adventure Club points system"  instead (...or attempt to force or trick them into doing so). 

If deeded owners *just say no* to "conversion", then it will simply and ultimately be a numbers tally. In essence, what will ultimately matter is who owns and controls more weeks --- Festiva or deeded owners?


----------



## Russ45

theo said:


> If memory serves, I seem to (admittedly vaguely) recall reading one or more  post(s) in which Southcape owners mentioned receiving "odd and questionable" bills from some individual rogue entity asserting himself to be a "trustee" of some sort. A little searching around might pull up some of those threads for you.
> 
> It was not a "phishing" scheme, per se, but evidently some sort of effort to keep / divert funds from the actual HOA (as I recall it, anyhow).
> 
> Odds of getting AG attention or involvement at this juncture would likely be somewhere squarely between slim and none, but it's certainly your right and prerogative to try. Meanwhile, you're certainly wise to look further into the source and legitimacy of the "odd and questionable" bill....


Just as an update, Cliff responded to my email and the special assessment is initiated by NEV.  I have asked for the Board of trustees contact information and meeting minutes and by-laws.  This indeed could be legit, however I want to make sure the money is used according to the by-laws and see the wording on the vote to understand what, how and when this money will be used.  without that understanding NEVS will be collecting the money with no transparency on its use, the Board has an obligation to the deeded owner to provide this information.  By the way, Cliff offered me an extension of payment to April 1, which is much more reasonable, as long as I get the information I asked for.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, Russ45!*



Russ45 said:


> Just as an update, Cliff responded to my email and the special assessment is initiated by NEV.  I have asked for the Board of trustees contact information and meeting minutes and by-laws.  This indeed could be legit, however I want to make sure the money is used according to the by-laws and see the wording on the vote to understand what, how and when this money will be used.  without that understanding NEVS will be collecting the money with no transparency on its use, the Board has an obligation to the deeded owner to provide this information.  By the way, Cliff offered me an extension of payment to April 1, which is much more reasonable, as long as I get the information I asked for.



Let us know when you get that info.  We need it here!

Do you have Hagberg's email address?  The rcassidy@southcaperesort.com address is actually Rosaleen Cassidy, resort manager.


----------



## Sou13

*Monterey Financial Services*



Sou13 said:


> That would explain the "Outfield" Marketing part.  That's *WAY* out in the outfield!
> 
> But New England Vacation Services, LLC, is found to be registered in Hyannis.  Now, what about "Monterey Financial" Services?



Monterey Financial Services, Inc
4095 Avenida de la Plata, 
Oceanside, California, 92056, USA

Telephone Number:
+1-800-456-

http://www.perspectivebuyersguide.com/monterey-financial-services-inc/


----------



## Sou13

*RE: Monterey Financial Services*



Sou13 said:


> Monterey Financial Services, Inc
> 4095 Avenida de la Plata,
> Oceanside, California, 92056, USA
> 
> Telephone Number:
> +1-800-456-
> 
> http://www.perspectivebuyersguide.com/monterey-financial-services-inc/



Monterey Financial Services
Manages accounts receivables purchased, serviced or collected. ... Music Funding | Careers | Contact | ©2008 Monterey Financial Services, Inc. ...
http://www.montereyfinancial.com/


----------



## Russ45

Sou13 said:


> Let us know when you get that info.  We need it here!
> 
> Do you have Hagberg's email address?  The rcassidy@southcaperesort.com address is actually Rosaleen Cassidy, resort manager.


I only have Rosaleen's email, but apparently she passes along to Cliff.  Will keep everyone posted.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, gravityrules!*



Sou13 said:


> Is it OK to offer the public records by email to anyone who requests them?  I have no problem giving the email address I used for these forums and will be happy to pass them on!
> 
> 950-1.pdf (51KB), 950-2.pdf (50KB), 950-3.pdf (51KB), 950-7.pdf (50KB), 950-31.pdf (51KB), 950-54.pdf (51KB), 950-55.pdf (51KB), International Vacation Sales.pdf (167KB), New England Vacation Management.pdf (154KB), New England Vacation Services.pdf (154KB)
> 
> I want to give credit where credit is due, so please come forward with your OK before I proceed!
> 
> Thanks again, You Know Who You Are!



I've been given the OK to give credit where credit is due.  Since I'm not online every day, you might get faster results from him.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, tombo!*



Sou13 said:


> Dear Southcape Owner
> 
> We have a lot to tell you about this year and we hope you'll take the time to read this newsletter so that we can bring you completely up to date.
> 
> First, we'd like to inform you that *New England Vacation Services, LLC* has purchased the unsold inventory at the Southcape from Vince Earth and  Robert Woods. New England Vacation Services, LLC is made up of a group of experienced timeshare professionals with solid backgrounds in resort management, sales and marketing.
> 
> We have been trying to purchase the inventory for many years and we're very excited about the future of Southcape Resort. The resort will be managed by *New England Vacation Management Services, LLC *and we intend to make substantial improvements to the resort both physically and operationally. My name is Cliff Hagberg and I'm the Managing General Partner. I'm a native Cape Codder and I have been involved in managing resorts across the U. S. and Europe for the past twenty years. I have been an owner at Southcape myself so I'm intimately familiar with the resort. In this newsletter, I want to talk with you about our plans for the resort.
> 
> As part of our continuing effort to keep you informed about new things at Southcape, we're delighted to inform you that we have affiliated Southcape Resort with one of the premier vacation companies in the country - Festiva Resorts. We are in the process of afflliating the entire resort with RCI Interval International and Festiva Resorts to give you as many vacation opportunities as possible.
> 
> *We will be happy to answer any questions you may have about these exciting, new vacation options and Outfield Marketing will be contacting you directly to explain the new benefits and what they mean to you as an owner. When Outfield contacts you, please know that they are working directly with resort management for your benefit. Outfield will also be able to update you on the financial situation at Southcape Resort.*​
> We need to talk about the realities of the financial situation at Southcape Resort. The fact of the matter is that the current maintenance fees do not cover the operating budget of the resort. The main reason for this is that we have a large number of owners who do not pay their maintenance fees. We have a plan in place to deal with this effectively for the first time. We have contracted with Monterey Financial Services to begin a professional collection effort with the delinquent owners. Those collection efforts have already begun. We need to do this to generate income for the resort.
> 
> For years, the resort operated without a real budget. Without a budget, it is impossible to calculate what the maintenance fees should be. For the past few years, the resort only increased maintenance fees a small amount and the result has been that there is not enough money to pay the bills. For 2009  we have created a detailed budget that will pay all of the bills for the entire year. With NEVMS, Southcape Resort will have a professional management company assisting resort management with controlling the operating budget.
> 
> While we realize that this years maintenance fee represents a significant increase, it is still lower than many similar resorts. For example, Brewster Green maintenance fees are as high as $740.00 and the Ponds at Foxhollow are as high as $811.00. Holiday Estates is $680.00 so the new maintenance fees are not at all out of line with other resorts. Maintaining a resort can be expensive and the new maintenance fees will allow us to do that.
> 
> The next financial issue we need to tell you about concerns the resort's reserves for capital expenditures. Simply put, there are no reserves. Improvements to the resort have been paid out of the operating budget. This has not only resulted in a shortfall in operating income but has caused the resort to make improvements in a piece meal fashion without an overall plan. We are changing that situation immediately.
> 
> We need to fund the reserve accounts so that, when a major repair is needed, the money will be there. We have begun that process by including a payment into the reserve account to begin building up the resort's reserves. You will notice that by basing the budget on the number of owners who are current in their maintenance fees, when the weeks from the delinquent owners begin paying, we can deposit that money right into a reserve account to fund the improvements. This will take some time but it is part of our overall operational plan.
> 
> The final fmancial area we need to address is the timely payment of maintenance fees. Currently, the maintenance fees are due when received.  As of January 31, 2009, a late fee of $50.00 will be added to accounts that are not paid.  After March 1, 2009, if the maintenance fee bill is still unpaid, the account will be turned over to Monterey Financial and additional collection fees will be added to the outstanding balance and your account will be blocked from usage. While we are reluctant to do this, it is critically important for budgeting purposes that we know, as early as possible, how much money we will have to run the resort every year.  Owners who are late in paying their maintenance fees seriously affect that budgeting process so it is very important for you and the resort to pay your maintenance fee when it is due. Your cooperation in paying your maintenance fee bill when received will greatly assist us in bringing financial stability to Southcape Resort and we sincerely thank you for you continued cooperation.
> 
> Over the coming months, we will be developing a detailed plan of improving the resort and how we can complete the upgrade of the resort. When that process has been completed, we will be sending you a copy of that plan. While it's impossible for us to take phone calls from thousands of owners, we will be setting up a brand new web site for Southcape Resort. As part of the website, there will be a special area just for owners where you can go to get current information on exactly what's going on at Southcape. We will give you the information on the new web site in our next update.
> 
> The area we're most excited about is bringing to Southcape something it's never had before. With the help of Outfield Marketing, Southcape Resort will now have the services of a professional sales and marketing company. This is critically important in order to bring in new owners and generate maintenance fees.
> 
> Over the next several months. vou will be hearing from us on a regular basis as we introduce new plans for the improvement of the resort. We firmly believe that Southcape Resort can be one of the premier resorts in New England and we're dedicated to making that happen. While we know that you may have questions, if at all possible, please email them to us at rcassidy@southcaperesort.com. With thousands of owners, it is just physically impossible for us to speak with all of you and email helps us respond to you in a timely fashion.
> 
> Thanks for your continued support and all of us here at Southcape look forward to welcoming you back next year.
> 
> Sincerely
> Cliff Hagberg
> New England Vacation Management Services, LLC



"Get copies of the letters they sent the owners at Church Street Inn in Charleston and the Atrium in St Maarten when they took over those resorts, because they sound almost identical also.

"Festiva seems to come into every resort, announce that the MF's will not cover expenses, then they raise MF's. Then every resort they gain control of is announced to be in a sad shape of disrepair and must be upgraded immediatelly, so they must assess. In addition, every resort they gain control of has been operating with no reserves for years (according to them) which is unacceptable, so they must assess for that too. Why does Festiva insist on only buying resorts that are in shambles, that have no reserves, who's MF's are inadequate, and who need assessments and MF increases to even survive one more year? 

"When Festiva takes over I would suggest making a call to say goodbye or write a farewell letter to all of your favorite office managers and front desk people. Tell them that you have enjoyed seeing them for the last decade and tell them that you appreciate the great job they have done because Festiva will get rid of all long term employees who are loyal to the owners and replace them with employees loyal to Festiva. They don't want anyone working at the resort who would tell owners what things are occuring regarding finances, expenses, expenditures, etc. IMO. Your long term employees are on borrowed time. Their life will be made miserable so that they will quit, or they will find a reason to fire them.

"Good luck with the attorney general. The only thing that will stop them is being hit in the pocketbook IMO."
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=669272&highlight=Festiva+Church+Street#post669272


----------



## tombo

You are more than welcome. This is  A HORRIBLE organization who takes over great resorts to the detriment of the owners IMO. They will try to not reveal any details on who got the refurbishing jobs in advance, or how they chose the company once they have signed a contract. Try to make them get 3 or more bids and you will run into a brick wall. Suggest a good local contractor you are familiar with and they will probably never even contact them. Can you say possible kickbacks (IMO)? It will be hard to prove anything with the limited information you will receive. If any reputable organization is undertaking a job of several $100,000, it would only make sense to choose a company and budget based on multiple bids. The transparency would help the owners feel that Festiva could be trusted and the bids would get the best price for the owners. Giving out a detailed annual financial report to owners should be an automatic, not something you have to beg and fight to receive. They will generically tell you in letters what all needs to be done and put their price on it, but specific details on expenditures will be few and far between.

I wish you luck fighting them. If you can beat them at one resort, all resorts will have a chance. I am hanging in there at my resort (Blue Ridge Village) where they have used a slightly different twist on their normal assault. At our resort we of course need MF increases just to be able to pay our bills, but assessments aren't needed yet because we have some reserves. They are going to raid our reseves for refurbishments and upgrades. Of course once the reserves are depleted I am sure that the assessments won't be far behind because as they are quick to say at other resorts, reserves are necessary to operate. If we all need reserves so bad why are they raiding ours? We know why, but proving wrongdoing is hard if not impossible.

Keep fighting and good luck!!!!!!

Tom


----------



## nancyt

Thanks, Rus, for writing down my thoughts. If legit, I'm wondering if there is a ceiling that can be asked.  Not that I have an extra $400 at the moment to send to them, but I'm wondering if they could have asked for a million.  At any rate, transparency and accountability  is now in vogue and I would like to see open books on the table for all of us to see before I pay anything. I would like to know how my money is being spent before I pay and I want more notice before I come up with any extra cash.  If the by-laws need to be changed, they need to be changed.


----------



## nerodog

*sea mist resort/ cape*

Hi  after reading all of the posts, just wanted to  point out to others considering staying here that Seamist also has one floor units which are 1BR and 2BR . Not all are townhouse configurations as one earlier post mentioned !!!  There are not stairs in every unit !!!


----------



## Russ45

No problem Nancy,

I have yet to hear back from Cliff on the Board of Trustees.  In the annual letter Cliff claimed Outfield Marketing would be knowlegeable on owner issues, but I have not had contact with them and somehow I doubt an outfit designed for sales of intervals is going to know the Board members.  Has anyone asked Outfield for tis information?  I guess my next step is to send a certified letter requesting this information since emailing Rosaleen is apparantly not enough.  If they don't provide information but still demand the special assessment and threaten to lock us out if we don't pay, our recourse is to file a complaint with the AG or file a class action lawsuit against the Board (whoever that is), which I hope we would never have to do.  Remember, this special assessment is 67% of our yearly maintence fees and would result in giving Community association over $500,000, this year with NO SPECIFIC CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS OR IMPROVEMENT COST DETAILS.  The special assessment notice was also improperly served as there is no indication who it is from, the details of what it will be used for, and any contact information.  The mail in address for the fee is Community Association inc, rte 28, Mashpee, MA, which I'm not even sure the USPS would know how to deliver.


----------



## Sou13

*Why I wish I'd read the Festiva discussion*

I'd never heard of the Festiva Adventure Club when I went to Southcape in November.  I'd never exchanged my week or even gone on any Interval International escapes.  My membership in I.I. had been a waste of money.

Then I received two calls from Outfield Marketing and learned why.  Worried that the new "owners" would be raising my maintenance fees to finance upgrades I didn't want, I made an appointment with Gregg Hughes, on-site sales rep.

I went for info about why the MF had been raised, how bad it could get, and how owners could exert any power over escalating maintenance fees and how they will be used.

What I got was a glowing picture of the Festiva Adventure Club compared with a gloomy picture of how deeded owners WILL BE assessed for ever-increasing maintenance fees over which they will have NO CONTROL.

Furthermore, as Festiva Adventure Club continues to grow, members can expect to have increasing choices while enjoying lower maintenance fees.

What I have since learned was that I should have joined TUG and read the discussion of Festiva before meeting with the Outfield Marketing sales rep.

I have info to pass along to Southcape owners who email me.  I am now attempting to locate Southcape owners.  I am getting calls from telemarketers who claim they found me on the Internet.  Can anyone help me find this same info?


----------



## Sou13

*Another unhappy Southcape owner*

_We are very upset about what is happening at Southcape, too. My husband and I went to last year's owners' meeting for the first time since becoming owners a few years ago. At the meeting we were told that the owners of the unsold inventory (Mr. Barth and Mr. Woods from whom we purchased our week) were looking for a buyer. Little did we know what a mess they would end up creating for the rest of us owners when they sold. Perhaps they didn't realize themselves what was going to happen when they sold their weeks to Cliff Hagberg and NEVS. I wonder if they knew at the time that the owners would be individually contacted and "coerced" into turning over their deeded ownership to become members of the Festiva points system. I like to think not.

I called the resort and left a message for Rosalyn Cassidy, the Southcape general manager, because I was told she wasn't speaking directly with owners when they called, but that she would return calls at a later date. That was a few days ago, and I have yet to hear from her, and I am not hopeful that I ever will.

We have our 2009 week reserved for mid-March, and I asked the woman in the office with whom I spoke if we would be able to use our week if the special assessment hadn't been paid by then. She said she didn't think so, but she wasn't sure. I asked her to have Ms. Cassidy call me ASAP, so I could find out from her. Still haven't heard anything. 

I am going to send Ms. Cassidy an email addressing our concerns and asking questions about the special assessment and who is controlling things at the resort now, but given the info on the Southcape thread at TUG, it seems unlikely that I will hear from her via email either.

What is the latest info you have on this situation? Have you heard from any other owners, and, if so, what do they (and you) plan to do if anything?

We were called a while ago asking us to make an appointment to have someone come to our home to discuss all the changes that were taking place at Southcape regarding our ownership. We declined to meet with them and hadn't heard from anyone since then until we received the special assessment info in the mail demanding payment by March 1, 2009. 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by our offering our unit for sale during the Memorial Day weekend that you were there. We don't recall talking with anyone about selling our week, but my memory isn't what it used to be. The only thing we know for sure is that we have no intention of transferring our Southcape deed to anyone in exchange for Festiva points.

Have you heard when the owners' meeting will be held this year? I know it was on May 17 last year, but I'm not sure if it is always held in May._


----------



## Sou13

*Email document*

I've offered a document to Southcape owners via email that needs some editing.  I will update that today if possible.


----------



## Sou13

*"Knowledge is Power"*

_Knowledge is power. There are many, many Festiva owners at different resorts posting their displeasure on numerous web sites, not just a few here on TUG. The ability of all of these owners to post on all of these web sites allows the rest of us to be forewarned. Please read through all of these posts and look for any owners coming to Festiva's defense with good reviews or happy owner's stories. 

Festiva bought the Atrium in 2005, and we can easily see how well that is working out for the owners there. Festiva only recently acquired peppertree/Wyndahm and is about to begin renovations, assessments, etc. at many of our resorts. You can be proactive and let Festiva know that we won't lay down and be assessed to death, or you can stick your head in the sand secure in the knowledge that the benevolent Festiva would never do that to the owners at your resort. The best predictor of future actions are one's past actions.

Discussions of assessments etc:

http://stmaartenstmartin-jeff.blogsp...ers-alert.html

Bankruptcy references:

http://www.timeshareforums.com/forum...t-maarten.html

A forum with more happy Festiva owners:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic..._Missouri.html

Another Forum expressing joy of Festiva:

http://www.traveltalkonline.com/foru...22&Main=866789

Another forum discussing the 200% assessment. A commercial and residential property manager (on down in the posts) expresses his opinions on their handling of assessments, renovations, etc based on years of experience:

http://www2.gobeach.com/sxm/read.php?1,61769,page=3

This forum discusses how Festiva contacted people's companies who had posted complaints from their company e-mail address. Festiva figured they could get them in trouble at work since they couldn't defend themselves with facts. Nice tactic to contact someone's employer trying to get them in trouble or fired simply because owners are upset with your mgt of their vacation resort. 

http://festiva-resorts.pissedconsume...221113613.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by tombo : July 29, 2008 at 09:34 AM. _


----------



## tombo

Some other Festiva Fans:

http://www.complaints.com/directory/2005/september/27/28.htm

http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/festiva-resorts-c84042.html

http://www2.gobeach.com/sxm/read.php?1,61769,page=2

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/356/RipOff0356189.htm


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## Sou13

tombo said:


> Some other Festiva Fans:
> 
> http://www.complaints.com/directory/2005/september/27/28.htm
> 
> http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/festiva-resorts-c84042.html
> 
> http://www2.gobeach.com/sxm/read.php?1,61769,page=2
> 
> http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/356/RipOff0356189.htm



Thank you again, tombo.  I was unable to locate the link to that "Knowledge is  power"contribution until today:  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=566884&highlight=Knowledge+power#post566884


----------



## Sou13

*Outfield Marketing sales strategy*

The sales strategy of Outfield Marketing is to focus on the downside of interval ownership.  Weeks for sale on eBay for $1, no bids!  Closing costs involved in unloading weeks.  Burden on heirs who don't want your week(s) and can be sued for unpaid maintenance fees and special assessments.

The supposed "beauty" of converting to "points" according to the sales rep is that you get to sign over your deeded week to the Club, which holds it in trust for you for 40 years, renewable in 10-year increments.  All you or your heirs have to do to walk away from your investment is to NOT PAY the maintenance fee or special assessment!

This is how Festiva *SCARES* deeded owners into anteing up thousands of dollars and giving up their deeded weeks in exchange for "points" in the ever-growing Club.  How do you unload those weeks if all you can expect is ever-escalating maintenance fees and special assessments?

After 90 or more minutes your head is spinning.  You may be offered more "points" on the first visit than you supposedly will be offered later.  I was warned, by someone who'd kept an appointment, to bring a lawyer with me!

That was good advice.  Have an attorney present who can ask to see the 16-page sales Agreement while you listen to the presentation.  You can email me for a copy of the parts I've been able to copy so far.  I've had to edit the document I've offered thus far and hope to be able to offer more in the near future.  (The reason the file needed editing was that there were errors in the transfer from the scanned copy to the Internet file.)

Meanwhile, go to http://www.festivaresorts.com/index.php and look at which resorts Festiva has acquired so far.  But you won't be able to access the Festiva Adventure Club!  In order to determine whether you'll have enough points to stay a week or 4 days or 3 days at any of these resorts, you need the points charts which are accessible to members only.

Not worried enough yet?  Read tombo's Festiva discussion and find out for yourself how long it takes to get a rep to answer.  The # is 866-933-7848.  You MUST reach a rep in order to get your User password to access the Club.

Southcape may have become an easy target for a ("hostile"?) takeover in part because the Community Association, Inc. is a mystery to most owners who are enjoying their weeks at the Resort or trading them through membership in I.I. or RCI.

If you go to a presentation, beware of false claims about Club membership.  The truth is that you need the most points to reserve a year to 31 days in advance, but you must try to find something available 30 days or less before your desired week if you don't have enought points to reserve up to but no more thana year in advance.  As for the 4-day and 3-day stays, you can't reserve them more than 45 days in advance and you must find a 4-day and a 3-day split that's available for your use.  There's no such thing as a stay of fewer days than that, so this is no advantage for Southcape "float" week owners!

Now compare this to deeded Southcape ownership.  At Southcape Resort you can reserve a year or more in advance when checking out or staying at the Resort.  You get to choose the week and the unit from the available inventory.  You can expect that unit to be ready and waiting for your arrival.

Compare that to membership in the Club.  You might as well be booking in a hotel.  If you want to stay at Southcape, you will probably be staying in Southcape II, not Southcape I, unless Southcape I owners have been lured or scared into "converting" to points.

It's "float" week owners who may have the most to lose.  Suppose you want to reserve a week in 2010 but haven't yet used your week for 2009.  What I don't understand is, are ALL the unreserved weeks available to Festiva Adventure Club members, ar are only those weeks that deeded owners have turned over to the Trust?

Furthermore, does this mean that you are locked into the week you owned on paper only when you bought your week at Southcape?  When I bought my week I was told it was on paper only but that my actual stay would be determined by reserving within the "float" week inventory, which runs from September(?) to the end of May.

Now compare this to how I get to choose my "float" week at the Ocean Club at Atlantic Beach.  I get to choose only from the weeks in my color code, and I get to reserve them as soon as I pay my MF, which means that the sooner I pay, the better choice I have.

This is a lot to chew on.  Read it and weep, and stay tuned for more!


----------



## Sou13

*More about Outfield Marketing*

Outfield Marketing was hired by New England Vacation Services to contact owners of Southcape deeded weeks and present them with the "opportunity" to convert deeds to the "points" system within the Festiva Adventure Club.

I called the toll-free # (800-436-9094) and learned that the Texas-based office can be reached from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. Eastern time.

I wanted to know how NEVS had "acquired" ownership of Southcape Resort.  The customer rep speculated(?) that they had to own more than 50% of the unsold inventory in order to have a controlling interest in the Resort!

Whoa!  If this is true, how is it that more than 50% of the inventory remains unsold?  Look at the inventory offered for sale by Hagberg's realty listing.  Does that look like more than 50%?

There's got to be something illegal going on here.  We're being handed a "special assessment" of $400 to pay for "upgrades" that have already taken place!

Furthermore, if we refuse to pay, we'll be unable to use our weeks and be turned over to Monterey Financial for collection!

Why didn't Mr. Barth and Mr. Woods ever resort to these tactics?  Why didn't they put more effort into selling the inventory and divesting themselves of the controlling interest in the Resort?

The rep also provided me with the telephone # of NEVS, which is 508-477-3197.

Am I alone in my anguish and anger over this?  SOS!  SOS!  SOS!


----------



## Laurie

Sou13 said:


> Why didn't they put more effort into selling the inventory and divesting themselves of the controlling interest in the Resort?


Perhaps to do precisely what they have done - to sell a controlling interest, for a higher price than the intervals would have netted them separately?


----------



## Sou13

*Edited "Why We Need a Special Assessment"*

*Why We Need a Special Assessment​
Southcape Resort enjoys its great reputation as a vacation resort serving the needs of owners, exchange and rental guests as well. We have thousands of people coming through our doors each year and meeting the wants and needs of that many is a never-ending challenge.  

We've recently made great strides at Southcape. We're adding wireless internet throughout the resort, installing a new computer system, replacing the old and outdated telephone system and replacing the old work-out equipment. Our collection activities have brought in tens of thousands of dollars in delinquent maintenance fees and those activities are continuing. 

Over the past twelve to eighteen months, the Resort's comment cards as well as comments received from the exchange companies and owners have held a common theme and that is: The Resort is showing it's age with respect tothe condominium interiors and exteriors in Condo 1 and the exteriors in Condo II. While the majority of the comments are complimentary to the overall vacation experience, it is the other comments that cannot be ignored. In addition, there is a fair amount of deferred maintenance that has not been able to be remedied out of the maintenance fees. It is imperative that the Resort retain the reputation it has earned by the Association focusing on the wants and needs of owners, exchange guests and rental guests. 

The value of each owner's method of use is directly affected by the quality of goods in the condominiums and the overall appearance of the Resort. An owner's use and enjoyment is the easiest to understand. We must keep up the resort's standards for the benefit of our owners. The Resort's rating by the exchange companies is based on comment cards received from people that have stayed at Southcape Resort and is the number one criteria for Southcape owners wishing to exchange out. From a rental perspective, the overall condition of our Resort is what drives the rental rates and repeat business. 

Above and beyond the regular capital improvement projects, many additional improvements must be made in order to keep up with the resort industry standards. Those improvements to the Resort need to include, but not be limited to, such projects as: 

     Replace furniture and fixtures in the interiors 
     New carpeting and flooring 
     Replace rotting siding on four buildings 
     Replace leaking roofs in four buildings 
     Paint and repair trim work throughout the Resort 
     Upgrade existing septic systems to conform to DEP regulations 


The need for these renovations is real and the cost associated with each project will not go down. The longer the improvements are delayed the greater the cost in the future. Your Board of Trustees, keeping their fiduciary responsibilities foremost in mind, has discussed, voted and approved a Special Assessment of $400.00 per interval. The Special Assessment and payment options are included on the enclosed invoice which is due by March 1, 2009 to permit us to begin the exterior work before the start of the summer season. Thank you again for your continued support of Southcape Resort. *


----------



## Sou13

*Hagberg's Email Address?*

Cliff Hagberg <ivs@ivsrealty.com>


----------



## Sou13

*Access to Festiva Adventure Club*

http://www.festivaresorts.com/fac_login.php

FAC19043


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## Russ45

Sou13 said:


> Cliff Hagberg <ivs@ivsrealty.com>


Check out IVS Realty's website and you'll see that IVS  also represents Southcape sales as a realtor .


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## Sou13

Russ45 said:


> Check out IVS Realty's website and you'll see that IVS  also represents Southcape sales as a realtor .



That's http://www.ivsrealty.com/scinv.htm

Look at the inventory.  How are float weeks Red/White/Blue or Red/Yellow/Green?  The float season at Southcape Resort has run from September to the end of May.  Is it legal for Cliff Hagberg to come in and change that?  Can anyone find out whethr the deeded weeks are in any way protected from this?  (I can't find my deed!)


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## BM243923

You can view your deed in the county records.  Check Barnstable County Records


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## Sou13

*Plug-In Needed!*



BM243923 said:


> You can view your deed in the county records.  Check Barnstable County Records




This site uses Popups. Certain functions, such as the Print Cart, will not work if you have Popups disabled. Please review our  HELP/SUPPORT/FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS  document for more information. 
You need special image handling software to view or print documents on this site.

If you are running Windows 98 or higher and Internet Explorer version 5.5 or higher, you can use either the Browntech Image Plugin or our Java Applet, which requires an up-to-date Sun Microsystems Java VM. If you are not using Windows or Internet Explorer version 5.5 or higher, you must use the Java Applet. Click on either link and follow the instructions for either downloading and installing the viewer or for utilizing the Java Applet.

Please review our  HELP/SUPPORT/FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS  document for more information.
https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.PGM


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## Sou13

*Damaged file*



Sou13 said:


> http://www.festivaresorts.com/fac_login.php
> 
> FAC19043



I attempted to access the Rules and Regulations and got the message that the file is damaged and could not be repaired.

The FAQ link does work, though.


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## Sou13

*Administrative fee*



Sou13 said:


> I attempted to access the Rules and Regulations and got the message that the file is damaged and could not be repaired.
> 
> The FAQ link does work, though.




_Please note your first reservation each year is made at no charge, however there is an administrative fee for each additional reservation in a calendar year. _


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## BM243923

Are you saying you could not get into Barnstable County Records.  I have viewed my deed online.  You cannot print it without paying but you can read the document.  You have to download the program they say or you cannot view.


----------



## Sou13

*Conversation with Cliff Hagberg*



Sou13 said:


> _We are very upset about what is happening at Southcape, too. My husband and I went to last year's owners' meeting for the first time since becoming owners a few years ago. At the meeting we were told that the owners of the unsold inventory (Mr. Barth and Mr. Woods from whom we purchased our week) were looking for a buyer. Little did we know what a mess they would end up creating for the rest of us owners when they sold. Perhaps they didn't realize themselves what was going to happen when they sold their weeks to Cliff Hagberg and NEVS. I wonder if they knew at the time that the owners would be individually contacted and "coerced" into turning over their deeded ownership to become members of the Festiva points system. I like to think not.
> 
> I called the resort and left a message for Rosalyn Cassidy, the Southcape general manager, because I was told she wasn't speaking directly with owners when they called, but that she would return calls at a later date. That was a few days ago, and I have yet to hear from her, and I am not hopeful that I ever will.
> 
> We have our 2009 week reserved for mid-March, and I asked the woman in the office with whom I spoke if we would be able to use our week if the special assessment hadn't been paid by then. She said she didn't think so, but she wasn't sure. I asked her to have Ms. Cassidy call me ASAP, so I could find out from her. Still haven't heard anything.
> 
> I am going to send Ms. Cassidy an email addressing our concerns and asking questions about the special assessment and who is controlling things at the resort now, but given the info on the Southcape thread at TUG, it seems unlikely that I will hear from her via email either.
> 
> What is the latest info you have on this situation? Have you heard from any other owners, and, if so, what do they (and you) plan to do if anything?
> 
> We were called a while ago asking us to make an appointment to have someone come to our home to discuss all the changes that were taking place at Southcape regarding our ownership. We declined to meet with them and hadn't heard from anyone since then until we received the special assessment info in the mail demanding payment by March 1, 2009.
> 
> I'm not quite sure what you mean by our offering our unit for sale during the Memorial Day weekend that you were there. We don't recall talking with anyone about selling our week, but my memory isn't what it used to be. The only thing we know for sure is that we have no intention of transferring our Southcape deed to anyone in exchange for Festiva points.
> 
> Have you heard when the owners' meeting will be held this year? I know it was on May 17 last year, but I'm not sure if it is always held in May._



Today I am reporting what I hope will be good news for Southcape Resort interval owners, especially off-season "float" owners like myself.

Since Rosaleen is overwhelmed with replying to a flood of email from disgruntled and disturbed owners like myself, I tried a different tactic and sent email to the address on the realty site.  My message was brief:  Subject Southcape Resort.  Message please call me at (etc.)

It worked!  Cliff Hagberg called me!

So today I am happy to report that the news that Southcape Resort was sold to NEVS may not be as dire and dreadful as it may appear.  I have been authorized by Mr. Hagberg to pass along as much info as I can to as many Southcape owners as I am able to reach.  

If all works out as he told me it should, I shouldn't have to hide behind the ridiculous "Sou13" username much longer and can "come out" in this discussion.

Meanwhile I invite you to email me for the edited TERMS AND CONDITIONS for membership in the Festiva Adventure Club.  I've sent out eight copies and have yet to hear back from any of the recipients, which seems strange given the time and effort I've put into making this file available.


----------



## Sou13

*Addressing some owners' concerns*

The inventory offered at http://www.ivsrealty.com/scinv.htm is not the inventory that NEVS purchased from Mr. Barth and Mr. Woods.  That invenory won't be availabe for sale until the resort has been upgraded as a result of what should be  a long overdue  one time only special assessment. 

My Hagberg's speculation of Mr. Barth's and Mr. Woods' reason for not offering relief to owners by selling the unsold inventory is that they didn't want to give up control of the Resort.  But Southcape Resort has been operating in the red and maintenance of the septic system was neglected until it broke down and the Town of Mashpee started playing hardball with the Resort.

Taxes went unpaid, and the Town of Mashpee now owns 2 1/2 acres surrounding the visitors' parking lot, as well as Condo III which were seized for nonpayment of taxes.  It was only through Mr. Hagberg's efforts that we are allowed to park on the town's land!

The Town of Mashpee also played hardball over the failed septic system, and it could have cost a lot more if Mr. Hagberg hadn't entered into an agreement to connect with the sewer system when it becomes available.

So maybe the Outfield Marketers were's lying about Mr. Barth and Mr. Woods taking the money and running.  What they were doing (or NOT doing is illegal in Massachusetts!

I do not own (or want to own) a computer, and my online time is from the public library, which is why I can't share all I want to share at once.  So stay tuned and I'll get those documents to you ASAP upon request.


----------



## Sou13

*Affiliation with Festiva*

(Posting from the local community college academic computer lab, where I can scan and send documents via email)

While Mr. Hagberg sees the affiliation with the Festiva Adventure Club as an additional benefit for Southcape owners, our conversation left me with the conclusion that I was right to sound the alarm about Festiva.

Mr. Hagberg told me that his intention is to sell the inventory and turn over control of the resort to the Owners' Association.  But what he didn't tell me is that all the owners who "convert" to Festiva are turning over their vote to Festiva, and that will give Festiva the majority rule of the Club!

Furthermore, as I suspected, the weeks that are converted are the weeks you get to deposit in I.I. when you want to exchange a week.  This is not the way it works when you are a "float" owner exchanging through I.I.!  Float owners reserve the week and unit of their choice from the available inventory and some weeks and units are more in demand than others when it comes to exchanging!

I've been in contact with a TUG member who has nothing bad to say about Festiva, but with good reason.  Here's what he has to say (my questions are in RoyalBlue, his answers in _italics_):

_As far as Festiva points go, you can color me satisfied, at least for now. I have stayed in one Festiva property (Church street Inn -- nice place, great location), visited another (Ellington at Washesaw Plantation -- very nice, especially for golfers), and used Festiva points to trade for 5 units. In the last 2 cases, 3600 Festiva points (each) brought me a 2BR unit at the Royal Sands in Cancun, and a 2BR unit at Marriott's Canyon Villas vacation club in Phoenix. Previous trades were for Royal Islander, Cancun (2BR, 3600 PTS), Sedona Springs Resort, AZ (1BR, 3500 pts), and The Ponds at Fox Hollow, MA (1BR, 3500 pts).

My impression is that the best way to use Festiva points is to trade outside of Festiva, not to stay in a Festiva unit._

We owners at Soutcape Resort are very upset about being affiliated with the Festiva Adventure Club but have not heard from any satisfied members. When you trade outside Festiva are you paying a fee as well?


_I trade through Interval International, so I pay the standard II fees. There are no Festiva fees (other than an annual maintenance fee)._


How long have you been a member, and has your maintenance fee increased since you joined? Do you get what you want when you trade?

_Joined in Sept 2007, so I'm a relatively new Festiva member._

_I take it from your 2nd question that you know nothing about Interval international...or about trading in general. For a tutorial, you would do well to check out other TUG newsgroups and the II web site._

Were you a deeded owner or did you join Festiva outright? Have you had experience with RCI and the point system?

_Yes and yes...it's not an either-or thing (or it doesn't have to be).

I have no experience with RCI (yet), but I'm waiting for them to acknowledge the application I made over 2 months ago. They are very slow in getting things started. I've been very happy with II, but I recently received a free membership in RCI, so I'm going to give them a try. My suspicion is that i will continue to like Interval better._

We would really appreciate it if you could visit our discussion and answer these and many other questions.

_Your discussion seems to be about Southgate, about which I know nothing, or about bashing Festiva, which I have no reason to do._

BTW I found you in the Festiva Adventure Club listing on TUG.

Since I'd never even heard of Festiva until the recent takeover of Southcape Resort, I read the Festiva-bashing discussion before joining the forum.

Now that I've had some first-hand experience with Festiva, I wanted to hear from members, and you were listed (there are only 3 who are listed) so I wanted to hear from you how it's working for you.

You've been doing your trading through I.I. which means paying an exchange fee for each trade, as well as paying for membership in I.I. Since I've never traded through I.I. but have been an off-and-on member over the years, I have never had experience from which to draw. But it appears to me that you could have done just as well as a deeded inteval owner, and if not, why not?

Is your home resort affiliated with Festiva, and are deeded weeks no longer available?

_I have no home resort. It's a deeded points deal...40 years, renewable at no extra cost. 6000 points per year, with a 6000 point sign-up bonus. My 5 trades have cost me 17,800 points, leaving me a 200 point carryover to next year.

I was already an II member as a result of our Marriott Grande Vista ownership. So there has been no extra cost for me, other than the II trading fees. My maintenance fee for 2009 was $730._

How did you get to purchase points in the Festiva Adventure Club without having a home resort? Are you still a deeded owner at Marriott Grande Vista?

_Festiva and Marriott have nothing to do with each other. I have 2 separate ownerships...a floating 2BR week at Grande Vista, and a deeded 6000 annual point membership in Festiva. My wife & I purchased the Festiva membership during a stay at Festiva's Church Street Inn in Charleston._

If you can direct me to info about this I would greatly appreciate it!

You say your maintenance fee is $750. How many points do you own, if I may be so bold as to ask? My understanding is that the MF is based on how many points you own.

_Make that MF $730 for 2009, not $750.

FWIW, Festiva says that Peppertree owners who converted from Peppertree points to Festiva points saved money. For example, 3500 Peppertree points converted to 6000 Festiva points, with a 2008 reduction in fees of $274/year.

I have no way of knowing if 3500 Peppertree points truly equal 6000 Festiva points. _

Put together with annual membership in II and the exchange fee, are you getting enough for your outlay?

_Well...I wish I had paid less  but other than that, no complaints.

The issue of II membership is irrelevant in my case. I was already a member before joining Festiva._

This makes no sense to me. How can you trade through II if you have no week to deposit? And how can you get good weeks if your week isn't a good one?

_You call Festiva. Early in the year is best. If you have paid your MF, they will issue you a unit (per the number of points you ask to be spent). For example, 3600 points gets you a 1BR red week, 3500 points a 2BR yellow week. You then deposit this unit with Interval. Thereafter it works just like any other deposit...except that Marriott deposits are held by Interval for about 3 weeks while they are made available to Marriott owners only (a special deal Marriott has made with Interval)._


----------



## Sou13

*Owners' meeting*

Good news for deeded owners.  The new trustees hope to see at least 100 members at the meeting May 16, 2009, and might even treat us to lunch!

Since getting to know the ins and outs of the resort as well as addressing owners' concerns has taken up so much of their time, we all need to make it a priority to be at that meeting where we will be thoroughly informed of what's been going on and why.

So spread the word if you know how to get in contact with other owners.  And if you know anyone who's considering "converting" would you be so kind as to direct them to this discussion as well as the Festiva discussions on these forums?

I have more documents to scan and share in the near future, as well as what I've learned from accessing the Festiva Adventure Club online.


----------



## Sanford

*I Am Southcape Owner And Looking To Buy Another Week*

I am an owner at Southcape Resort and looking to buy an additional week week 31 only.

I will consider buying someone's that has not been able to pay this years special assessment and or regular assessment.

If anyone is aware of anything of this sort PLEASE ADVISE.

Cash Buyer


----------



## Sanford

*What does all this mean for Owners of FIXED WEEKS NOT POINTS*

I am not understanding the implications of this.There are many of us that have FIXED DEEDED weeks, I do not believe those weeks can be taken away or forced to convert to a point system. 

Please correct me if I am wrong


----------



## Sou13

*Not forced, just coerced or frightened into converting*



Sanford said:


> I am not understanding the implications of this.There are many of us that have FIXED DEEDED weeks, I do not believe those weeks can be taken away or forced to convert to a point system.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong



My understanding of what's happening here is that Festiva wants to take over the club by enticing, coercing, or scaring deeded weeks owners into converting to Festiva points.

Meanwhile I'm trying to understand what's in it for Cliff Hagberg, who paid a hefty price for the inventory he now controls.  He says he won't be offering it for sale until the resort has been upgraded.  I believe he means upgraded to Festiva's satisfaction.

Meanwhile, what weeks are available to the Club?  Just the weeks that were put into trust by owners who fell for their scheme, or are all the weeks owned by Cliff Hagberg also available to the Club?

Have you tried contacting Cliff Hagberg <ivs@ivsrealty.com> for an answer to this concern?


----------



## Sou13

*Rules and Regulations*

Today I was able to access the Rules and Regulations for members of the Festiva Adventure Club.  What a relief that I don't have to scan and send 21 pages!  Yesterday when I tried to attach the Public Offering Statement I sat at the scanner for 1/2 hour waiting for it to attach!  I finally had to give up, will try again today.  If I'm successful I'll forward it to all who've already received the TERMS AND CONDITIONS email attachment.

Meanwhile, go to page 21 of the Rules and Regulations and look at 2.8 Transfers of Memberships.  You have to go there because I am unable to copy and paste from this pdf file.

I hope all of you concerned Southcape owners come back to this discussion and benefit from my efforts!


----------



## Sanford

*I Don't Get It*

Don't we have rights to our deeded timeshare and to use our weeks as always.

This seems like a very good time to acquire, before they pass these rules as to transfer of membershup for $ 350.00 etc etc. Or are they already in effect, How can these be in effect if we were all not notified and to vote for same???

Are the same rights we had now diluted?

I REMAIN INTERESTED IN PURCHASING WEEK 31 at Southcape


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## Russ45

Thanks so much SOU13, I downloaded the rules from your link, less than a month old.  For Sanford, The way I understand 2.8 is that you still have your deeded fixed interval but should you decide to sell it (To Festiva or another party) then 2.8 would apply and the resort gets their $350.00 transfer fee.


----------



## wmauryd

*Southcape Owners-- RED FLAGS-- Owners group needs to be formed*

Its been five years since we were purchased our Southcape unit. We've really enjoyed the unit and have visited all but one of the past five summers. The Cape has been a big hit with our family, and we've since bought two other units-- one in Brewster, and last year, one in Dennisport.

I want to alert Southcape owners to some RED FLAGS with regards to the new operations regime and the somewhat sudden assessment-- We had an assessment last year in Brewster ($300) and they seemed to be accountable and appeared to spend the money wisely. The assessment notice from Brewster came months and months in advance, while this Southcape assessment seems to have come just weeks prior to the due date.

I called Southcape yesterday and asked a series of questions (nicely) to the receptionist-- who manages the resort now? Is there an homeowners group? Is there a board of directors?*

The receptionist said the assessment deadline was moved to April 1st.

She continued saying the resort is under new management but with no staff changes-- Rosalyn Cassidy continues as manager, and must return calls in order received, and is at accountant's today. The receptionist said there's a new 'owner'. I asked her how can there be an 'owner' when I'm an owner and so are the other unit owners. She replied that they (probably NEVMS in the letter) own the unsold inventory and are also managing the resort. So they 'own' the resort.

In my opinion, Southcape owners need to take notice of the following red flags:

A) The recent assessment letter is unsigned-- Professionals return calls and sign letters.

B) Asking for this much money ($400) this soon, in an unsigned letter, doesn't sound like professionals are in charge-- 

C) As owner of remaining unsold inventory, NEVM might have a voting block.

D) The management company/owner of unsold inventory has the staff thinking that it's the 'owner'-- I highly doubt that Southcape's original master deed or charter designate's the management company or the owner of unsold inventory as the 'owner'. The resort is 'owned' by the unit owners like you and I. 

Southcape needs an owners group to further communicate and if there isn't one already I make a motion that we create one today. Is anyone interested in forming an owners group?

Also, if anyone, including Craig H. from NEVM is reading this, lets hear your responses.


----------



## Sanford

*I would like to be part of an Informed Owners Group*

Owners Group
I am contemplating purchasing another week
in addition to the weeks I already own there, and don't want to see this turned into something bad


----------



## Sou13

*Reply to wmauryd*

In reply to wmauryd above, the problem is that Cliff Hagberg (NEVS) must have been able to buy more than 50% of the unsold inventory, making him the "owner" of the resort.

Now I ask, how could more than 50% of the inventory be unsold?

I asked him whether the inventory he purchased was for sale and he told me that it won't be for sale until the resort has been upgraded.  He went on to tell me all the wonderful  things he's been doing to upgrade Southcape.

What I meant by the good news I reported after  or conversation was that I was actually able to get him to call me!

As for his intentions I'm convinced that he intends to hold on to the inventory until enough owners have been scared into "converting" to give the majority vote to Festiva.  And I suspect that he is currently giving Festiva access to Southcape by making that inventory available to the Festiva Adventure Club.  How else can Club members spend their points at Southcape?

What worries me even more is how Festiva gets weeks at the resort.  Does Festiva grab up all the "float" weeks before owners have had a chance to stay at Southcape and reserve for the following year?

I hope I'm not in the doghouse with the Festiva Adventure Club member whose private messages I shared.  How, I ask, is it possible to buy points in the Festiva Adventure Club without converting a deeded ownership?  Where does Festiva get the weeks for you to "buy" with your points?

If you have a copy of the PUBLIC OFFERING STATEMENT I'm offering by email, look at the *Time Sharing Plan and Club Description*.  You can join the club as a "*New Member*" or a "*Converting Member*"!  Why is Outfield Marketing trying to get us to "convert" instead of giving us the opportunity to join as "New Members" as the satisfied Festiva Adventure Club in my earlier post was able to do?

I can't stress this enough.  We need an active Community Association!  Not showing up for (unadvertised) meetings gives the unelected Trustees free range to do whaever they deem necessary and jack up our MFs and zap us with Special Assessments so that they can make a hefty profit on the unsold inventory!

Don't be taken in by smooth talkers.  Kowledge is power!  Study the email attachments I'm offering (at risk of being sued by Festiva?) and if you don't understand what's going on, show them to someone who will!

I really would like to be able to sit back and let someone else take the floor here, but you may have some catching up to do.  I read all 11 pages of the Festiva discussion before joining the TUG forums and sounding off about Southcape.  I had a hard time coming up with an ID that wouldn't clue Rosaleen and Cliff in on who I am, but by now they must have figured it out unless they're too bogged down in "upgrading" Southcape to meet Festiva's standards and collecting the "Special Assessment" from us sheeple.


----------



## Sou13

*More email files*

These documents were emailed to me and I've been given permission to share them:950-1.pdf (51KB), 950-2.pdf (50KB), 950-3.pdf (51KB), 950-7.pdf (50KB), 950-31.pdf (51KB), 950-54.pdf (51KB), 950-55.pdf (51KB), International Vacation Sales.pdf (167KB), New England Vacation Management.pdf (154KB), New England Vacation Services.pdf (154KB)

These records are from
*The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
William Francis Galvin
Secretary of the Commonwealth, Corporations Division
One Ashburton Place, 17th floor
Boston, MA 02108-1512
Telephone: (617) 727-9640*

I have to confess that I haven't fully perused these documents, caught up as I was in the fight to ward off what I perceive as a hostile(?) takeover of Southcape Resort.  I'm running out of time here, so may not be able to email them to whoever requests them until tomorrow.


----------



## wmauryd

*More Email Files*

Thank you for gathering these documents-- Yes I'd like copies of all emailed to me-- wmauryd@earthlink.net


----------



## wmauryd

*Reply to wmauryd*

You are correct that I have some reading homework to do, in order to get caught up. 

If an owners group doesn't already exist, there needs to be one created. It's obvious that the once-a-year owners meeting will not provide sufficient owners oversight for this particular resort.


----------



## Sou13

*RE: More email files*



Sou13 said:


> These documents were emailed to me and I've been given permission to share them:950-1.pdf (51KB), 950-2.pdf (50KB), 950-3.pdf (51KB), 950-7.pdf (50KB), 950-31.pdf (51KB), 950-54.pdf (51KB), 950-55.pdf (51KB), International Vacation Sales.pdf (167KB), New England Vacation Management.pdf (154KB), New England Vacation Services.pdf (154KB)
> 
> These records are from
> *The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
> William Francis Galvin
> Secretary of the Commonwealth, Corporations Division
> One Ashburton Place, 17th floor
> Boston, MA 02108-1512
> Telephone: (617) 727-9640*
> 
> I have to confess that I haven't fully perused these documents, caught up as I was in the fight to ward off what I perceive as a hostile(?) takeover of Southcape Resort.  I'm running out of time here, so may not be able to email them to whoever requests them until tomorrow.



These pdf files were downloaded from the Mashpee city property records.  They were looked up from the resort address 950 Falmouth.  There are records 950-1 through 950-55, presumably for all 55 units in the resort.  Downloaded are just a few of them.  I don't know all the details of interpreting this data but all mention a 1.2 million dollar sale.

The other business records are from the Mass. Secretary of State website.  The TUG member's interpretation is that these entities were created in 2008 specifically to pull off this project.

According to the TUG member who looked up and downloaded these documents, this guy Clifford Hagberg is apparently a significant real estate player in the Cape Cod area.  He has also been a major ARDA player, so it's not hard to imagine a Festiva connection.

These TX offices look like shell companies.  The only use he can think of for the convoluted business arrangements involved here is to hide the real story.  He supposes that it's going to take someone with legal standing to do something about all of this ...


----------



## Sou13

*Another frustrating attempt*

I've been sitting at the scanner in the academic computer lab at the local community college, trying to get Yahoo! to attach the file I scanned and saved so that I could email it to myself et al.  I had to give up!

The file I'm trying to scan and email is the introductory letter from Barth and Woods in 1990.  If any of you have been owners for that many years you may even have your own copies of the letter!

I'll try one more time, then I'm outta here.  Carry on!


----------



## Sou13

*1990 introductory letter*



Sou13 said:


> I've been sitting at the scanner in the academic computer lab at the local community college, trying to get Yahoo! to attach the file I scanned and saved so that I could email it to myself et al.  I had to give up!
> 
> The file I'm trying to scan and email is the introductory letter from Barth and Woods in 1990.  If any of you have been owners for that many years you may even have your own copies of the letter!
> 
> I'll try one more time, then I'm outta here.  Carry on!


 
I should have just keyed it in instead of wasting all that time trying to attach the scanned document:

_                                                                                 January, 1990
Dear Southcape Member:

It's official.  Fred Sateriale and Rick DePamphlis have retired and Bob Woods and i are the new Resort Owners/Managers.  Bob is the Owner/President of *C & E Credit* and I am the owner of the *Park Lane in Atlantic City* Bob Woods will provide computer services to the resort and will be paid for those services.  We will not be paid for management services that we provide to the resort.

The first thing that we did was to meet with the employees and find out what they were supposed to do.  Then we reorganized the resort and eliminated everything that was unnecesary.

We met with your elected officials and agreed that the Community Association, with all members having an equal voice, would operate the resort for the benefit of all.

The biggest problem with the resort, after the fact that the expenses were out of control, is that there is "nothing to do."  We are going to add a full schedule of activities including owners parties, group and individual tennis lessons, weekly tennis matches (with prizes from beginners to experts), coffee klutches, ice cream and rum swizzle parties, card and bingo games that will be enough to fill any vacation, just to name a few.

In order to keep your maintenance fees as low as possible and help you enjoy the resort more than just one week a year, we are going to open the season on March 9th with a *Murder Mystery Weekend!*  Please see the enclosed flyer for all of the details.  All of the money generated from this weekend will be used to reduce the maintenance fees.  The refreshments will be catered by the owner of *The Flume Restauraunt.*  All of you who have visitied his restaurant know it is one of the finest on the Cape.

For the Summer we will build an area next to the outdoor pool for your entertainment.

Before we open the sales to the general public, we are going to give you one last opportunity to add another week to your vacation plan at the lowest prices ever offered.

Lois has the new reduced price list and can be reached by calling the main number 508-477-4700.  While you are talking with her ask her about our Royal VIP program that can be a lot of fun for you while you make money just for helping us promote SOUTHCAPE.

Setting the dues for 1990 was a difficult task.  We do not know the resort as well as you do, but we are aware of some of the problems that we face.  We like to consider them "OPPORTUNITIES" rather than problems.  Although we have cut expenses everywhere, we have to set the annual maintenance fee at $350.00 per interval.  Every owner at SOUTHCAPE will pay the same fee and all of the money that we receive for the use of the inventory will also be given to the maintenance fund.  We hope to have a surplus by the end of the year and be able to reduce the annual fee, however we are still at the mercy of the tax essessor and will be going back to court unless she changes her discriminatory attitude.

Please complete the enclosed postcard and mail it back to us with your maintenance fee as soon as possible.  We need the funds to upgrade and maintain the property.  We want to receive the Five Star Award again and we need your help.

Lastly, we would like you to become part of the *PARK LANE* family.  Either Bob or I will be at the resort as much as possible and would enjoy meeting you.  In the meantime, please look over a special offer we have for you to take a mini-vacation in Atlantic City, practically for free.  You will get more back than the cost to stay with us and have the chance to *win* at tables and *BEAT* the one arm bandits.

                                                              (signed) "Southcape Staff"
_

The 1989 and 1990 budgets were enclosed.  I no longer have the other enclosures.  The projected funds and expenses for 1990 added up to a shortfall of $11,806, which was a lot more for 1990 than it is today.  The total expenses for 1989 came to $882,965.


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## jjette

*Sou13*

I wanted to thank you for all your research and the many others as well.  My family owns a week at Southcape and we would be very interested in attending the May meeting.   If you have the time/date that would be great as we do need to stand together to figure out what is taking place.  

I think many of us are reasonable and can understand over the years that perhaps the units do need some work beyond the budget of maintenance fees.  We just would like to be shown exactly where this assessment is going and legally what can the new Mgmt team levy on this.   I would imagine the new company is simply using future assessments as a scare tactic to get us to sell back.  Legally, I am sure they have to show dilligence that future assesments are being used for the better of the property.

It is my belief that outfield marketing was simply usng the calls received on the $400 as a lead generating program and nothing more.   Scare tactics and mis-information was presented to us and such a un-professional way it was mind-boggling.   What NEVM wants is nothing more than the value we all have one week per year; and thats the value of staying at a 5 star resort for a $3000 value each year.   The more units they own, they can then turn into revenue to sell our deeds as point systems while we still pay the same taxes and no guarantees on maintenance fees nor what they do to the point systems anyway.  Oh and bye the way, we would like a check for $3000.00

Keep the faith everyone, they know the value of your family vacation and that is what they are after.  Outfield marketing did nothing but parachute in a couple of slick hustlers from Texas without a brochure nor even a business card, quite shoddy if you asked me.


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## Sou13

*Reply to jjette*

jjette, If you will email me your email address I will email you all the documents I've offered so far and all future documents If I have better luck with the scanner next time.

Did you let the Outfield Marketing sales rep come to your house?  I met with Greg Hughes at Southcape Resort and it wasn't until later that it occurred to me that, since he wanted to show me timeshares for sale on eBay, my time would have been better spent if he'd shown me the resorts in the Festiva Adventure Club!

BTW Cliff Hagberg is one of those Southcape interval owners who found one on eBay for $1!  So don't be fooled into thinking that he has Southcape's best interests at heart!

Whatever happened to the good intentions of Barth and Woods over the years, I blame myself for owner apathy.  I contemplated attending an owners' meeting more than once but it never happened.

You and I live close enough to carpool.  Mark your calendar for May 16 and spread the word that we need to show up and show Cliff Hagberg that we're not going to be sheeple any longer!


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## Sou13

*Complaints About Timeshare Membership*

_*Complaints About Timeshare Membership in the Peppertree/Equivest System, now Owned by Festiva Resorts*

by William A. Earnest

January 20, 2008

Here's an approximation of the history of this company & the changes since I bought my package:
When I first bought this Timeshare package in 1998, the company was *Peppertree Resorts*, & my package was called *'Peppertee Vacation Club'*.
Within the next couple of years, it was sold/transferred to *Equivest* & known as the *'Equivest Vacation & Travel Club'*. Somewhere in there, the names *'ECI'*, *'RCI'* & *'Pendant'* have also showed up in correspondence. Next the company was sold/transferred to *Fairfield Resorts*. The name *'Wyndham' *would also show up in places. All of us Equivest members were never integrated in to the Fairlfield system, & we have remained to be known as 'Equivest Members'. Then some time in 2007, the Equivest members were sold to *'Festiva Resorts'*. As far as I know, were have not been integrated into their system either, but we are still kept separate & referred to as *'Equivest or Peppertee Members'.*  Festiva has been trying to convince Equivest members to upgrade/transefer/buy into their system for a hefty fee.
Throughout the Fairfield & Festiva changes, we members have hoped it would expand our network of resorts, by being part of a larger company, but that has never happened. We have felt like 'unwanted stepchildren' each time.

When I was given the original sales pitch; I was told that I could buy into the system at the base level package, 1300 points a year, and that would basically give me (every year): Enough points to exchange in the Interval International system for a week wherever I choose, plus a weekend or so on the East Coast.
I'd say that all should be equivalent to $1000-$2000 value in 'vacation use' per year. It has been nothing like that.

*Summary of my complaints:*

*1. Unavailability of Resorts whenever I try to book something.*
I have NEVER, not once, been able to reserve the dates I wanted in the preferred resorts. I would always end up settling for partial dates or different resorts. I have even stayed a couple days in one place, then moved to another resort for the remaining days. All the while, a 'non-club members' can make paid reservations in many of these same resorts. VERY FRUSTRATING!

*2. Hard to book due to Complicated Booking Rules & Limitations.*
I always think that I understand all the rules (see enclosed document 'Booking Rules'), but most times when I call to book something, I am given another reason why I can't book what I want. VERY FRUSTRATING!

*3. Disproportionate & Constantly Rising Annual Maintenance Dues.*
$365 in 1998, $563 for 2008.

*4. Some Resorts have been dropped since I originally I bought the package.*

*5. Financially - Simply Put, It's a Rip-off.*
(See Enclosed Document 'Financial Records for Equivest/Peppertree Timeshare Package'). This package has no 'value' because it can't be resold, or even given away. Nobody wants these packages. I've read that some people have actually 'donated' theirs to charity just to get out of the annual maintenance fees. I don't know that you can even do that anymore.
________________________________________________________________
I have determined that the only way I can get ANY real use, is to do an Exchange thru the Interval International system in the years that I am lucky enough to book something that way. The resorts I have exchanged with have been fair at best….substandard is more like it. I’ve calculated that it will take me over 20 more years to break even on what I’ve spent, & what I continue to spend every year. For the price of my annual dues alone plus 'exchange fees', I could book the equivalent time in a fine hotel of my choice, without the added frustrations.

*Bottom line:*
This package was promoted as a 'Membership in a Vacation Club'. One would
expect there to be some BENEFIT to owning a 'membership' of any kind, when in reality, there is no benefit of any kind to this 'membership'. It's obvious that there is no financial benefit. On top of the money that's just thrown away, it's very frustating! *THERE IS NO BENEFIT TO OWNING THIS PACKAGE.* It is a rip-off.
A person is better off staying away from 'timeshares' & making standard travel arrangements & reservations on their own.

I feel that some type of fraud has been committed.
(end)_


----------



## Sanford

*WOW...just got a call from them trying to set an appointment*

in myhome in FLORIDA. They want to send this guy to my house to " explain about the assessments and how to control the costs of them better."

When I pressed further I learned it is some guy that works for Outfield Marketing....

THIS IS BIZARRE !!!!

WOW


----------



## Sanford

*There has to be some way to STOP THEM and Questions*

The more I have looked into this matter the more I am starting to understand and see the connections....

There must be a way to organize and collectively unite against this...

As to the $ 400.00 per week, help me understand this math...

Assume there are 52 weeks in the year and rounding to a number of say 50 (?) units that would divide into 2,600 weeks (?) If Mr. Hagberg, managing member of the LLC that purchaed the unsold inventory, so deirects his LLC to pays their $ 400.00 per week as well, or is it Outfield Marketing or are they the marketing arm of Mr, Hagberg's LLC (?) 

In any event this EXAMPLE ABOVE would yield 2600 potential weeks (?) at $ 400.00 each or $ 1,040,000.00 . WHERE IS THAT GOING? How is it being acounted ? Who gets use of it? What is the contract and payment arrangements with Outfield ? What benefits does Festiva get? Are there cross ownership interests between Festiva, Outfield and Mr. Hagberg's New England Vacation Services?

Is this a matter for the Commonwealth of Mass. Attorney General's office?

How do we get the message out in an organized manner to the other owners ?


----------



## Sou13

*Mindboggling!*



Sanford said:


> The more I have looked into this matter the more I am starting to understand and see the connections....
> 
> There must be a way to organize and collectively unite against this...
> 
> As to the $ 400.00 per week, help me understand this math...
> 
> Assume there are 52 weeks in the year and rounding to a number of say 50 (?) units that would divide into 2,600 weeks (?) If Mr. Hagberg, managing member of the LLC that purchaed the unsold inventory, so deirects his LLC to pays their $ 400.00 per week as well, or is it Outfield Marketing or are they the marketing arm of Mr, Hagberg's LLC (?)
> 
> In any event this EXAMPLE ABOVE would yield 2600 potential weeks (?) at $ 400.00 each or $ 1,040,000.00 . WHERE IS THAT GOING? How is it being acounted ? Who gets use of it? What is the contract and payment arrangements with Outfield ? What benefits does Festiva get? Are there cross ownership interests between Festiva, Outfield and Mr. Hagberg's New England Vacation Services?
> 
> Is this a matter for the Commonwealth of Mass. Attorney General's office?
> 
> How do we get the message out in an organized manner to the other owners ?



Mindboggling, isn't it?

I want to encourage or better still plead with anyone reading this discussion to forward it to anyone who owns a week at Southcape Resort.

All owners need to clamor for the same list of owners that NEVS has turned over to Outfield Marketing, as well as for the bylaws of the Community Association, Inc.

I have reason to believe that Outfield Marketing has been hired by the Festiva Adventure Club or by Festiva Resorts, and that NEVS is being paid to sic them on Southcape and Sandcastle owners.

In the meantime, we enlightened owners need to put up a resistance movement!

If anyone can answer the question about the AG's office, I would greatly appreciate it!


----------



## Sou13

*Access to Public Records*



Sou13 said:


> These pdf files were downloaded from the Mashpee city property records.  They were looked up from the resort address 950 Falmouth.  There are records 950-1 through 950-55, presumably for all 55 units in the resort.  Downloaded are just a few of them.  I don't know all the details of interpreting this data but all mention a 1.2 million dollar sale.
> 
> The other business records are from the Mass. Secretary of State website.  The TUG member's interpretation is that these entities were created in 2008 specifically to pull off this project.
> 
> According to the TUG member who looked up and downloaded these documents, this guy Clifford Hagberg is apparently a significant real estate player in the Cape Cod area.  He has also been a major ARDA player, so it's not hard to imagine a Festiva connection.
> 
> These TX offices look like shell companies.  The only use he can think of for the convoluted business arrangements involved here is to hide the real story.  He supposes that it's going to take someone with legal standing to do something about all of this ...



http://www.assessedvalues.com/search.zhtml?jurcode=172
Enter "950" in Loc1 and "Falmouth" in "Location"


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## Sou13

*RE: Access to Records*



Sou13 said:


> http://www.assessedvalues.com/search.zhtml?jurcode=172
> Enter "950" in Loc1 and "Falmouth" in "Location"



Now that my benefactor has given me the key to accessing these records, I see that the land taken over by the Town of Mashpee for nonpayment of taxes it assessed at $2,716,700.00!

Now look at this one:
http://www.assessedvalues.com/pdf.z...ge=&propertytype=r&jurcode=172&linksort=locno

Whatever is legally owned by the "condominium owners" has no assessed value.  This looks to me as though NEVS is legally liable to pay the taxes on the resort!


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## Sou13

*Another Concerned Festiva Victim*

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46418&highlight=Outfield+Marketing


----------



## Rebecca

*Southcape Owners Unite!*

Hi All,

I have been doing some research into the on goings at Southcape in Mashpee, MA.  I am currently in the process of compiling information about the situation.  I have heard that people have been receiving "threats" from the Outside Marketing group that if they don't sign their deeds over to "the Trust" or some other entity then they will be subject to massive fees.  DO NOT SIGN OVER ANY DEEDS WITHOUT FIRST CONSULTING AN ATTORNEY.

As of right now the "new management" team is not complying with its obligations under the trust that established this time share, and have not provided owners with information that it is required to provide.

There is something very strange going on with this new group, and it appears they are coaxing people out of their rightful ownership interests.  By this post I am attempting to reach out to the owners at Southcape, so that we can have a presence at the next unit owners meeting, and hopefully not let the new management walk all over the current owners.  - Owners be aware that you CAN have a vote at an owners meeting WITHOUT being present by assigning a proxy to vote on your behalf.  

If you are an owner and you are interested in learning more about what is going on with Southcape, or if you can provide any information about your recent experiences with the "new management" please contact me at  southcapeowners@gmail.com 

If anyone has the Master Deed and Trust in pdf format, if you could email it to the above address, this would be helpful in my research.  

Sincerely,
Rebecca


----------



## Sanford

*Spoke with Mr. Hagberg Today*

He was very nice and informative. Our conversation led me to believe that there is not as much going on negatively as has been presented or possibly assumed. However I am basing this on my phone conversation with him
only.

Mr. Hagberg seems to be a  professsional and also indicated that he is a property owner at Southcape who stated that his interests are in making Southcape the best Southcaoe it can be.

He stated that there will be transparency in the budgeting and dealings, and that  to the extent Festiva ends up with a Points system, it will be optional, and they will not have voting rights as the voting rights will remain with the deeded owners.

He stated that New England Vacation Services LLC of which he is one of four principals, or managing members, and the other 3 are principals of Outfield Marketing.

He stated that the special assessment would raise sufficient funds in his professional opinion to upgrade and make neccessary repairs and improvements and taht there would be a budget and source and use of funds sheet prepared and distributed.

He stated that the Board of Trustees of Southcape was contemplating establishing an advisory council of selected owners to particiapte in decisions and assist in distributre information to other owners etc.

Further that the similarity between Southcape and Sandcastle were such in that he is the owner of a different entity that is involved in that.


----------



## Sou13

*Hagberg/Outfield Marketing Connection*



Sanford said:


> He stated that New England Vacation Services LLC of which he is one of four principals, or managing members, and the other 3 are principals of Outfield Marketing..




*the other 3 are principals of Outfield Marketing*!

The plot thickens! 

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46418&highlight=Outfield+Marketing


----------



## Rebecca

*Hagberg*



Sanford said:


> He stated that there will be transparency in the budgeting and dealings, and that  to the extent Festiva ends up with a Points system, it will be optional, and they will not have voting rights as the voting rights will remain with the deeded owners.
> 
> .....
> 
> He stated that the special assessment would raise sufficient funds in his professional opinion to upgrade and make neccessary repairs and improvements and taht there would be a budget and source and use of funds sheet prepared and distributed.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Did he happen to mention why they had issued a special assessment without first providing a budget and explaination for the special assessment?  Did he address the fact that the trustees are supposed to provide an explaination of the prior year's dealings within a reasonable amount of time from the end of the fiscal year, and that fiscal year ended December 31st?
> 
> Is everyone aware that when it comes to maintenance, all unit owners have a responsibility to split the costs, BUT when it comes to upgrades, the trustees are supposed to send out a letter asking if people want to make the upgrades, and then if 75% of the owners want to make the upgrades, those costs get passed on to all unit owners.  If less than 75% of owners want to make upgrades (but more than 51%), then that cost should fall only on the owners who want to make the upgrades.


----------



## Sanford

*Rebecca*

Wow.. that is fairly explicict and Iam glad you are a part of this...because you seem to be in the know I owuld very much like to be a part of your list etc.


----------



## Sou13

Rebecca said:


> Sanford said:
> 
> 
> 
> He stated that there will be transparency in the budgeting and dealings, and that  to the extent Festiva ends up with a Points system, it will be optional, and they will not have voting rights as the voting rights will remain with the deeded owners.
> 
> .....
> 
> He stated that the special assessment would raise sufficient funds in his professional opinion to upgrade and make neccessary repairs and improvements and taht there would be a budget and source and use of funds sheet prepared and distributed.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Did he happen to mention why they had issued a special assessment without first providing a budget and explaination for the special assessment?  Did he address the fact that the trustees are supposed to provide an explaination of the prior year's dealings within a reasonable amount of time from the end of the fiscal year, and that fiscal year ended December 31st?
> 
> Is everyone aware that when it comes to maintenance, all unit owners have a responsibility to split the costs, BUT when it comes to upgrades, the trustees are supposed to send out a letter asking if people want to make the upgrades, and then if 75% of the owners want to make the upgrades, those costs get passed on to all unit owners.  If less than 75% of owners want to make upgrades (but more than 51%), then that cost should fall only on the owners who want to make the upgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not only were we not aware of this, we are not even aware of how to get access to the bylaws of the Community Association, Inc.!
> 
> As I previously warned, let's not let ourselves be swayed by a smooth-talking salesman (Cliff Hagberg)!  This whole mess looks somehow illegal and the strategy is to get enough owners to sign over their deeds to the Festiva Adventure Club "trustees" to give Festiva Resorts the majority (75%?) of votes!
> 
> Moving in and scaring deeded owners into this without informing them of their legal rights is their strategy, and it's working for them!
> 
> Wake up, sheeple!  If this isn't illegal, it should be!
Click to expand...


----------



## Sou13

*FAQ & Links for Point-based TS Systems*

FAQ & Links for Point-based TS Systems


Festiva Resorts conversion to points


----------



## Sou13

*Outfield Marketing's Outlandish Offers*

Let's compare what Outfield Marketing (OM) offered us.  I own a "float" week which I've always been able to reserve a year or more in advance in any available unit of my choice, for any week from September (?) to the end of May.  According to the Festiva weeks chart, I own a "green" week in Southcape I.  That week, according to OM Sales Rep Greg Hughes (GH), was worth 3500 points at the cost of $2900+190 closing costs.  For 3500 points I had to sign off on my deeded week and pay $3185.  My maintenance fee (MF) for membership in the FAC was supposed to be $575 and I was supposed to be able to expect it to stay lower than the Southcape MF.

My concern was that I would be unable to stay at Southcape in the unit/times I had reserved for 2009.  When GH learned that I had reserved a split week, he supposedly made a call to his "boss" and relayed to me that I would no longer be able to split my weeks at Southcape but if I didn't let the front desk know that I was "converting" I should still be able to stay at Southcape during the times I had reserved.

When I was able to research the Festiva Adventure Club (FAC) and the points system I learned that I didn't have enough points to stay at Southcape during those times and that there was no guarantee of finding a unit available during those times, let alone finding anything available in Southcape I!  That's when it really hit home how much I'd be losing by converting to points!  

The more I thought about it, the worse it got.  The biggest loss was the peace of mind of knowing that I had a reservation letter and that times in those units were mine to use or rent out if I could find someone willing to pay my asking price.

Then there was the loss of any say in What's to become of Southcape Resort.  I learned from the Festiva discussion that all "converting" members are handing their votes over to Festiva!

When Rosaleen mailed me the minutes from the May 17, 2008 annual meeting I was appalled.  Only 14 members present?  Who were those members who cared enought about Southcape to go to that meeting?

Meanwhile, what about the "lower" MF of $575 promised by Sales Rep GH?  I learned that it was based on the number of points and that it was raised in December!  Not only is there no guarantee that it will stay lower than the Southcape MF, it would be higher as of Dec. 2008!

Then there were the resorts in the FAC.  It turned out that Southcape is the only one within driving distance.  The log cabins in Maine that GH made sound so appealing are on the Canadian border and I doubted that my son, who had rented a week at a resort in Southern Maine in July 2008, would be interested in taking his family there, especially during whatever weeks might be available for 3500 points.

When it comes to spending points in resorts in the FAC, I learned that only the first reservation is free.  I would have to pay an administrative fee for splitting my week, and split weeks can't be reserved more than 45 days in advance.  As far as I could see, it's not possible to stay one week at a resort that costs 2900 points and use the remaining points on a 4-day or 3-day stay,  Please correct me if I'm wrong about this!

When I finally got through to Customer Service (CS) I learned that they didn't yet have the list of available inventory at Southcape.  But the more I thought about it, the more I reasoned that whatever inventory might be available would (or should) be the inventory that nobody wants!

This may be just the tip of the iceberg of what is lost when Southcape owners fall prey to Outfield Marketing.  For more on my concerns, read my previous posts.  And stay tuned!


----------



## Sou13

*1990 Budget*

For some reason I'm unable to scan that 1990 Budget that was included with the introductory letter from Barth and Woods.  The reason I want to be able to copy and paste it here is that it lists Maintenance Fees from 2,200 Members.  However, because it's columns, I don't know how to reproduce it here.  When I tried attaching it to email it wouldn't attach no matter how many ways I tried to do it.

So for now, the most important item in the budget was the MF from 2,200 Members.  We should have more Members in 2009, but who among us knows how to find out who they are?


----------



## bobcat

Sou13 said:


> For some reason I'm unable to scan that 1990 Budget that was included with the introductory letter from Barth and Woods.  The reason I want to be able to copy and paste it here is that it lists Maintenance Fees from 2,200 Members.  However, because it's columns, I don't know how to reproduce it here.  When I tried attaching it to email it wouldn't attach no matter how many ways I tried to do it.
> 
> So for now, the most important item in the budget was the MF from 2,200 Members.  We should have more Members in 2009, but who among us knows how to find out who they are?



Southcape was started I think around 1982. That is a long time to search for owners.Maybe, we can we can see how many people on Tug own there. I own a float week. Also, is any body paying the 400.00. Can we hold it in escrow?. Has the town of Mashpee been paid the old taxes?.


----------



## Sanford

*Members*

There are 55 units if there are 52 weeks being offered that would equal approximately a potential for 2,860.00 members. As we all know there was unsold inventory which Mr. Hagberg and his partners purchased as New england Vacation Services, LLC. When I queried Mr. Hagberg about the $ 400.00 per week special assessment totalling $ 1,144,000.00 he indicated that there approxiamtely 500 weeks that never paid and that they were expecting to collect arounbd $ 900,000.00 +/-. If that is correct that would be in the vicinity of approximately 2,360 members. It would be interesting to determine if tyhe unsold inventory that NEVS and Outfield has purchased as well as the inventory theyare trying to acquire are paying their $ 400.00 assessment. I have paid mine.


----------



## Sou13

*Email Attachments*



bobcat said:


> Southcape was started I think around 1982. That is a long time to search for owners.Maybe, we can we can see how many people on Tug own there. I own a float week. Also, is any body paying the 400.00. Can we hold it in escrow?. Has the town of Mashpee been paid the old taxes?.




bobcat, do I have your email address?  If I don't, you can go to the sidebar and email me for the attachments (3 so far) I've been offering.


----------



## Sou13

*1990 Budget*

I tried pasting part of the 1990 budget into this discussion and it's impossible for me to do this at this time.  I've wasted too much time on this and the most important part of it is the # of Members (2,200) there were in 1990.

By Sanford's calculations, NEVS does not own enough weeks to be levying a $400 Special Assessment.

I hope that Rebecca is providing her services in behalf of her father and all the Southcape owners who are being swindled out of their weeks by Outfield Marketing.

My time is important to me but this is an urgent matter that affects my future at Southcape, which is why I've been making it such a priority here.

If/when my current problem with Outfield Marketing gets resolved, I'll let you know.  In the meantime I would appreciate hearing from the Southcape owners who were supposed to get those email attachments.  I know some of you got them, but what about the rest of you?


----------



## Rebecca

*Southcape Info*

This is a work in progress, so some of the info may change/be added to, but for those of you who want this information....

Southcape was started in the early 80's as a phased condominium.

The first portion was done as Southcape I and encompassed units 1 through 31.

The second phase was done as Southcape II and had units 32 through 55.  

What NEVS bought is mostly part of Southcape II.  Due to the large number of owners (55 units times 52 weeks) and almost 20 year time period, it is hard to ascertain the current owners of all the units - hard because it is time consuming.  The better measure would be to figure out what NEVS owns, that way we would be able to determine their percentage versus everyone else.  I am working on this at the moment.

The only people who can make assessments are Trustees.  Anyone who is in touch with the management company should ask for a copy of the minutes of the meeting where the trustees voted for an assessment.


----------



## Sou13

*By-Laws*



Rebecca said:


> This is a work in progress, so some of the info may change/be added to, but for those of you who want this information....
> 
> Southcape was started in the early 80's as a phased condominium.
> 
> The first portion was done as Southcape I and encompassed units 1 through 31.
> 
> The second phase was done as Southcape II and had units 32 through 55.
> 
> What NEVS bought is mostly part of Southcape II.  Due to the large number of owners (55 units times 52 weeks) and almost 20 year time period, it is hard to ascertain the current owners of all the units - hard because it is time consuming.  The better measure would be to figure out what NEVS owns, that way we would be able to determine their percentage versus everyone else.  I am working on this at the moment.
> 
> The only people who can make assessments are Trustees.  Anyone who is in touch with the management company should ask for a copy of the minutes of the meeting where the trustees voted for an assessment.



Have you had any luck getting copies of the by-laws of the Community Association, Inc., the members of the Board of Trustees, the promised budget, to name just a few?  I've tried several times and no response.


----------



## gravityrules

*Barnstable County records have a wealth of info*

As previously mentioned, Barnstable county has on-line viewable legal documents.  Search by address, 950 Falmouth and you can find documents that list the specific units acquired.  I think this was in September 2008.  The website does require either the latest Java or a specific app to view the doc's.  If your using Java you have to set that preference at the start of your session.  It's not the most user friendly website, but there are instructions on how to proceed.  Everything should be here to construct what has legally transpired.


----------



## Sou13

*Thanks for your help!*



gravityrules said:


> As previously mentioned, Barnstable county has on-line viewable legal documents.  Search by address, 950 Falmouth and you can find documents that list the specific units acquired.  I think this was in September 2008.  The website does require either the latest Java or a specific app to view the doc's.  If your using Java you have to set that preference at the start of your session.  It's not the most user friendly website, but there are instructions on how to proceed.  Everything should be here to construct what has legally transpired.



How are things going at Sandcastle?  No posts mean no news is good news?  I hardly think so!


----------



## Sou13

*"Projects no longer in active sales"?*



gravityrules said:


> http://www.arda.org/Content/Navigat...ssReleases/November2008/081121_Sandcastle.pdf
> 
> Here's 2 quotes from this 12/04/2008 ARDA press release ...
> 
> _SPI’s Resort Management Software Suite was recently purchased by New England Vacation Management (NEVM) for *two of their projects, Sandcastle Resort and Southcape Resort & Club.*
> 
> About New England Vacation Management
> New England Vacation Management, based on Cape Cod, Massachusetts, provides full-service resort management services, principally for timeshare projects no longer in active sales. These services include human resources, centralized reservations and on-site management, including HOA and owner services such as rentals and resales. *NEVM’s two
> properties mentioned above, located in Massachusetts, are Sandcastle Condominiums in Provincetown and Southcape Resort & Club in Mashpee.*_



This one is worth revisiting.  Thanks again, gravityrules!


----------



## Sou13

*1990 Budget*



Sou13 said:


> For some reason I'm unable to scan that 1990 Budget that was included with the introductory letter from Barth and Woods.  The reason I want to be able to copy and paste it here is that it lists Maintenance Fees from 2,200 Members.  However, because it's columns, I don't know how to reproduce it here.  When I tried attaching it to email it wouldn't attach no matter how many ways I tried to do it.
> 
> So for now, the most important item in the budget was the MF from 2,200 Members.  We should have more Members in 2009, but who among us knows how to find out who they are?



At long last and with a great deal of frustration and effort I have finally been able to email that long-overdue budget to email subscribers *AS AN ATTACHMENT!*

I have so much more to learn about the possibilities of TUG and email attachments, to name just a few of the challenges facing me.

I appreciate any help I can get here!


----------



## Sou13

*Reply to email request for info*

_The by laws are not in a form we can email to you easily but I have attached a link that will take you to them.


www.southcaperesort.com/masterdeed.html 


The trustees are Clifford Hagberg, Steven Lamantia and Thomas C. Franks and we can all be reached in care of the resort.


I have also attached a copy of the 2009 Operating Budget


Please let me know if I may be of further assistance.


Cliff Hagberg_


----------



## Sou13

*Master Deed and Budget*



Sou13 said:


> _The by laws are not in a form we can email to you easily but I have attached a link that will take you to them.
> 
> 
> www.southcaperesort.com/masterdeed.html
> 
> 
> The trustees are Clifford Hagberg, Steven Lamantia and Thomas C. Franks and we can all be reached in care of the resort.
> 
> 
> I have also attached a copy of the 2009 Operating Budget
> 
> 
> Please let me know if I may be of further assistance.
> 
> 
> Cliff Hagberg_



Was that master deed there all along and we just never found it?

If anyone reading this post has not yet received the email attachment of the 2009 Budget, please email me if you own a week at Southcape!


----------



## Sou13

*Purchaser Acknowledgment and Addendum*

FESTIVA RESORTS ADVENTURE CLUB/NEVS
Purchaser Acknowledgment​
I/We understand and acknowledge the following: 

1. That we have purchased the fol1owing Membership: 
Membership Level: _____________Term/Non-Specific Use Points: ____________/________________ To Expire On ________________Initial Calendar year: ____________

2. That we are of legal age and can afford to purchase our Membership, including the down payment of $___________________  and monthly installments of $_______________ each for ____________________months.

3. That this purchase is made for our personal use and enjoyment, although not homestead, without reliance or representations concerning rentals, rent return, tax advantage, depreciation, investment potential, or other monetary or financial advantage made by seller, its agents, employees or associates, and that we will not use the Membership as our principal residence. 

4. That there are no separate agreements for the repurchase, resale or rental of our Membership, but that we may seek to do so on our own through a sales agent of our choice. 

5. That all understandings and agreements between the parties are set forth in writing in the Purchase and Security Agreement or a written addendum thereto and initial Club Documents. 

6. That our Membership has been submitted to a points based program and we may occupy units within the Club by making reservations pursuant to the procedures set forth in the Rules and Regulations. We may vacation in increments of seven (7), four (4), or three (3) nights based on availability and our annual allotment of points. Check-in is typically 4:00 PM and check-out is typically lO:00 AM but may vary by resort.

7. That the current maintenance fees are $ __________ and are due and payable no later than January lst in each usage year. The maintenance fees are calculated with a base fee plus a per point fee. The maintenance fees must be paid even if we do not use our membership in our usage year. The amount of Purchaser's Standard Assessment each year may vary and will be determined by the Board, pursuant to an annual budget that will be prepared by the Manager and approved by the Board. If Purchaser has current year usage, a maintenance fee invoice will be sent within 60 days of the purchase date. 

8. Seller and the Association have entered into an affiliation agreement with an independent exchange company under which it has agreed to offer its reciprocal exchange services to Members of the Club. Purchaser's participation in such exchange program is voluntary and subject to the payment by Purchaser of such fees as are required from time to time by the exchange company for external exchange services. Seller makes no representations concerning the current or future services to be provided by such exchange company, the cost, continued availability, success, or possible failure of the exchange program, or the Association's relationship with the exchange company. Any representations made regarding the exchange company by its agents or employees or within the literature, brochures, or videos prepared or provided by the exchange company are solely the representations of the exchange company and should not be relied upon as being the representations of Seller. 

9. That we must abide by all occupancy restrictions that apply to our Membership and that no pets or animals of any kind are permitted, except for properly licensed service animals for disabled persons. 

lO. That in order to reserve a unit we must contact Central Reservations via telephone, fax, email or the online reservations form at www.festivaresorts.com. Reservations requests will be granted on a first-come, first-served, space available basis and a confirmation number will be issued for all confirmed reservations. We must be current in the payment of all maintenance fees and loan payments, if any, in order to reserve a unit.

11. That upon the request of Seller or Seller's agent, we agree to re-execute and/or initial any and all closing documents in order to correct any clerical, scrivner's, typographical, or other similar errors contained therein within 30 days from date of notice to us of such errors.

12. That there are no separate agreements for the resale of another vacation ownership interest at this or any other resort. Seller may recommend a resale agent, but Seller is not obligated to assist us with any aspect of the resale and we are responsible for all communications with the resale agent. We further understand that the purchase of our Membership is not contingent upon the resale of another vacation ownership interest and if another vacation ownership interest is not resold within a certain period of time, we will not be entitled to a refund of any kind. 

13. That I have received the following products related to my Festiva Resorts Adventure Club Purchase: 
•	Interval International Resort Directory
•	Interval International Buyer’s Guide
•	Festiva Resorts Directory including Points Chart
•	Festiva Resorts Adventure Club Rules and Regulations


NEVS/FESTIVA RESORTS ADVENTURE CLUB
Addendum to Purchaser Acknowledgment​
I/we understand if I/we chose not to convert to the Festiva Adventure Club I/we will retain all the current benefits. privileges and use rights in my existing plan.

I/we understand the purchase price to convert to the Festiva Adventure Club does not include any future maintenance fees. The purchase price does include the first year membership fees in Interval International.

It has not been represented to me that if I chose not to convert to the Festiva Adventure Club my current maintenance fees will increase in an unreasonable and excessive manner.

I/we understand there has been no representation of past or future monetary value of my current ownership. 
The benefits of the Festiva Adventure Club have been explained to my satisfaction.

My representative was courteous, well informed and has provided information to my satisfaction.


----------



## Sanford

*2009 Operating Budget*

I have not received it.
Also what on earth is the above agreement?
Who prepared it?
What is it about?


----------



## Sou13

*Reply to Sanford*



Sanford said:


> I have not received it.
> Also what on earth is the above agreement?
> Who prepared it?
> What is it about?



I've been wondering whether anyone's been receiving the emails with attachments I've been sending out.  I'll send it again, along with a message that you should be looking for it.

The above is the acknowledgment that Southcape owners sign when converting to points in the Festiva Adventure Club and turning their weeks over to the "Trust" and I assume giving up their voting rights in the Community Association.  If Cliff Hagberg has indicated otherwise, it should be verified in the Master Deed at http://www.southcaperesort.com/masterdeed.html but I don't believe it.  There was no such thing as a "Festiva Adventure Club" in 1982!

This is the gist of what you are signing.  Pay attention to this one:  _It has not been represented to me that if I chose not to convert to the Festiva Adventure Club my current maintenance fees will increase in an unreasonable and excessive manner._


----------



## Sou13

*Advisory Council*



Sanford said:


> He stated that the Board of Trustees of Southcape was contemplating establishing an advisory council of selected owners to particiapte in decisions and assist in distributre information to other owners etc.



I have agreed to serve on the advisory council.  I hope it doesn't prove to be a waste of time and effort.  It will entail at least one trip to Southcape prior to the meeting May 16.

I hope much of the agenda can be accomplished via email but in the meantime we need to know who the members of the Community Association, Inc. are and how to contact them.  This info has obviously been turned over to Outfield Marketing!

Please advise me what you want me to convey to the trustees.


----------



## Sou13

*Southcape Budget 2009*

Southcape Resort		

2009​INCOME	

Maintenance Fees	          $978,986.00​Rental Income	          $300,000.00​Tennis Court Fees	           $100,000.00​Vending Machines	              $1,000.00​Telephone Charges	              $4,500.00​Income from Sales	                    $0.00​Insurance Reimbursement	       $0.00​Delinquent Collections	$75,000.00​Other Income	             $15,000.00​ 
TOTAL	                      $1,474,486.00​ 
OPERATING EXPENSES		
Insurance	              $70,000.00​Office	$12,000.00​General and Administrative	$117,898.00​Rental Commissions	  $75,000.00​Salaries and Wages	$385,000.00​Payroll Tax Expense	 $50,000.00​Licenses and Permits	     $200.00​Utilities	$285,000.00​Repairs and Maintenance	$125,000.00​Supplies	                         $110,000.00​Real Estate Taxes	            $130,000.00​Credit Card Fees	              $12,000.00​Other Taxes	               $9,500.00​Advertising & Promotions	$ 50,000.00​Travel	                            $1,500.00​Misc. Expense	             $22,000.00​ 
TOTAL	                      $1,455,098.00​ 
NET INCOME	             $19,388.00​ 


2009 Maintenance Fees based on current owners		

	                                 2009            	2008
Maintenance Fee        	    $543.88           	$525.00
Reserve Account	                  $50.00	

Total Maintenance Fee	   $593.88             	$525.00


----------



## Sou13

*Please Excuse the Above*

This is why the budget has to be sent as an email attachment.  The $ figures are on the next line when I paste it into the discussion!

Something doesn't make sense to me.  How many menbers are there?  Is the total collected from each member that goes toward the expenses $543.88 or $593.88?


----------



## Sou13

*Master Deed*

According to pp.14-15 it looks as though 100% of the unit owners must agree to whatever changes may be made by NEVS.  Please correct me if I'm wrong about this one.


----------



## Russ45

The masterdeed posted by SOU13 is very important document for everyone to read since it contains the by-laws for all unit owner.  I've been looking at the by-laws briefly in relationship to the special assessment and it looks like Article IV section 4.0 is the justification for the extrodinary assessment and March 1st is the correct due date for a legally applied assessment.  However if you look at Article III Section V under (c) Action you will see there needs to be a vote which includes all unit holders to initiate capital improvements over $10,000, by-law amendment and even the sale of the property of the Corporation.  They are also required to send us 21 day notice by mail of any regular meeting and 10 day notice for any special meeting, which was not done and we would have a vote, in presence or by proxy.  Also, elsewhere in the by-laws the board needs to be elected by all unit owners on an annual basis.  The current Board was not elected by the unit owners.  And, the by-laws may not be amended unless by vote of 80% of all unit owners. There is also a provision to remove board members.  I intend on fully reading the bylaws soon but at first glance over portions of the document but I* don't believe the current board members have authority to levy a special assessment.*  Again, these are the by-laws currently in effect and cannot be changed or amended unless a vote by all deeded unit owners allows it.  Please read this document as it seems the board members truly do not have appropriate authority over the resort as they may have well been self appointed.


----------



## Russ45

Sou13 said:


> I have agreed to serve on the advisory council.  I hope it doesn't prove to be a waste of time and effort.  It will entail at least one trip to Southcape prior to the meeting May 16.
> 
> I hope much of the agenda can be accomplished via email but in the meantime we need to know who the members of the Community Association, Inc. are and how to contact them.  This info has obviously been turned over to Outfield Marketing!
> 
> Please advise me what you want me to convey to the trustees.


Thanks,

As you can see from my latest post, I would like to see the information of the election of the Trustees, as well as the meeting minutes where there was apparently a vote on the special assessment and the justification of the special assessment amount.  These items should have been given, and voted on, by every unit owner and yet no notification was ever provided that a board was being elected (or self-appointed) or a special assessment was under consideration.


----------



## Sou13

*ByLaws*



Russ45 said:


> The masterdeed posted by SOU13 is very important document for everyone to read since it contains the by-laws for all unit owner.  I've been looking at the by-laws briefly in relationship to the special assessment and it looks like Article IV section 4.0 is the justification for the extrodinary assessment and March 1st is the correct due date for a legally applied assessment.  However if you look at Article III Section V under (c) Action you will see there needs to be a vote which includes all unit holders to initiate capital improvements over $10,000, by-law amendment and even the sale of the property of the Corporation.  They are also required to send us 21 day notice by mail of any regular meeting and 10 day notice for any special meeting, which was not done and we would have a vote, in presence or by proxy.  Also, elsewhere in the by-laws the board needs to be elected by all unit owners on an annual basis.  The current Board was not elected by the unit owners.  And, the by-laws may not be amended unless by vote of 80% of all unit owners. There is also a provision to remove board members.  I intend on fully reading the bylaws soon but at first glance over portions of the document but I* don't believe the current board members have authority to levy a special assessment.*  Again, these are the by-laws currently in effect and cannot be changed or amended unless a vote by all deeded unit owners allows it.  Please read this document as it seems the board members truly do not have appropriate authority over the resort as they may have well been self appointed.



Thank you, Russ45!

I've been studying the bylaws and preparing questions for Cliff Hagberg.  Please post your questions here!


----------



## tyH

*South Cape Resort*

Hi, I haven't been on the board in a while so I'm so glad Sou13 e-mailed me. I did receive my assessment fee $400.00 after I told the sales person for the
4th time we did not want anyone coming to our home and we used our week anywhere from 44-49 and were very happy. Same here with no signiture or letter head on the "bill" with no explniation  attached  I haven't paid that yet.
When we were there in Dec. I didn't talk with anyone. When I called to confirm my week, I was told our unit was just redone. And while cosmetics such as new rugs, lamps, paint, curtins, furniture ect... the blue bathroom fixtures remind me too much of my boys bathtub at home.  LOL

I would like to orginize a meeting for Southcape owners befor the May 16th meeting. We can not make the 16th and would like to get a better understanding of what's going on with our resort. We've been going to South Cape for the last 5 years and love this small hideaway. If anyone  is interested please e-mail me. I know spring break is upon us as is Easter so the sooner the better to let me know. Please put your:
Name and address(city and state)
Dates available for the meeting: Sat. or Sun.
Mar.21,22 or 28,29 
Apr.4,5 or 2,3 or 9,10

tyh, Sandy, Bristol, Ct. ,Available any of these dates.

Thanks so much and let's keep our resort ours! 
Sandy


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, Sandy!*

The subscribers to my elist know (if they read my messages) that I've been watching the views count on this discussion and encouraging others to post while I peruse the bylaws and Massachusetts General Laws.  I've also been searching TUG for other Southcape owners, which is how I found Sandy.

For visitors who haven't emailed me, the link to the Massachusetts General Laws pertaining to timeshares is http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/gl-183b-toc.htm

I haven't heard back from Cliff Hagberg and am holding off my next questions until he has answered the two I posed above.  But for now it appears to me that there are some requirements in the Master Deed and the M.G.L. that he and his cohorts haven't fulfilled.  

Meanwhile I've contacted a disgruntled Festiva Adventure Club member who is offering his 6000 points for sale for 50 cents per point.  If your hearts are set on joining the Festiva Adventure Club, you don't have to give up your deeded weeks at Southcape!

I'm also waiting to hear whether Mr. Hagberg will be holding a meeting of the advisory council enough in advance of the meeting May 16 for it to do any good.  I'm in favor of holding a meeting but have reservations about having to make four trips to Southcape in the next 2 1/2 months (the fourth one is to enjoy my scheduled timeshare use).

As I peruse the Master Deed and M.G.L. 183 it appears that interval owners have the right to access to the budget (along with a breakdown of itemized expenses) and the names and addresses of all interval owners.  If I am able to copy and post these requirements I will do so.

Meanwhile I'm encouraging anyone who replies to my email messages to post the info here in this discussion.  It attracts a lot more attention when there are more participants!


----------



## Sou13

*If you go to Southcape*

Anyone going to Southcape needs to bring along a laptop, since the resort now has wireless Internet access.

Also bring along a copy of the "Terms and Conditions" and "Public Offering Statement"!

If you want to hear what the Outfield Marketing rep has to say, his sales office is in Unit 132*.  That's an in-house #.

Be prepared to witness some construction going on.  But the septic systems that must be replaced are only those that have failed, not the whole Resort.  Our intrepid new Owner/Manager has convinced the Town of Mashpee to hold off on requiring the Resort to replace the entire system until the public sewer lines reach 950 Falmouth Road, at which time we will tie in to the sewer system.

And please don't let on that you know my name, since my name is known at the Resort and I don't want to jeopardize our standing with the Board.

*The first unit on the right as you keep to the right around the cull-de-sac of Southcape II

Now I must get back to that Master Deed and M.G.L. 183!


----------



## Sou13

*M.G.L. 183b*

*Chapter 183B: Section 27. Surplus funds* 

Section 27. Unless otherwise provided in the time-share instrument, the by-laws, rules or regulations of the time-share association or otherwise determined by the time-share owners at a meeting of time-share owners or pursuant to either section thirty-three or thirty-four, any surplus funds derived from the time-share owners or from property belonging to said time-share owners or their association and held by a managing entity remaining after payment of or provision for time-share expenses and any required reserves shall be paid to the time-share owners in proportion to their time-share expense liabilities or credited to them to reduce their future time-share expense assessments.

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/183b-27.htm 

*Chapter 183B: Section 28. Expenses; assessments; late charges; interest; reserve funds* 

Section 28. (a) Until time-share expense assessments are made against the time-share owners, the developer shall pay all time-share expenses. After any time-share expense assessment has been made against the time-share owners, time-share expense assessments shall be made at least annually, based on a budget adopted at least annually by the managing entity. At the time the time-share owners are notified of the amount of the assessment for the current year, the time-share owners shall be provided with a copy of the budget prepared in accordance with the provisions of clause (6) of subsection (a) of section thirty-eight and an accounting of income and expenses for the preceding year. 

(b) Except for assessments under subsections (c), (d) and (e), all time-share expenses shall be assessed against all the time-shares in accordance with the allocation set forth in the time-share instrument pursuant to section thirteen. Any past due assessment or installment thereof shall bear interest at the rate established by the managing entity or time-share instrument not exceeding eighteen per cent per annum. 

(c) To the extent required by the time-share instrument any time-share expense directly related to a time-share unit and incurred in providing a service or facilities which are available to fewer than all of the time-share owners may be assessed exclusively against the time-share owners benefited. 

(d) Assessments to pay a judgment against the association shall be made only against the time-shares in the time-share property at the time the judgment was entered, in proportion to their time-share expense liabilities. 

(e) If any time-share expense is caused by the misconduct of any time-share owner, the association may assess said expense exclusively against his time-share. 

(f) If time-share expense liabilities are reallocated, time-share expense assessments and any installment thereof not yet due shall be recalculated in accordance with the reallocated time-share expense liabilities. 

(g) Any amount identified in the budget as an amount to be reserved for the repair or replacement of the time-share unit or the furnishings, equipment and appliances located therein, shall be segregated by the managing entity, held in trust and used only for the specified purpose for which the reserve was collected unless the time-share owners, at a meeting of time-share owners, or pursuant to either section thirty-three or thirty-four determine to spend said funds for other purposes. Any ballot for any proposal to spend reserve funds for purposes other than that for which they were collected shall be accompanied by an explanation in plain language of the reasons therefor and consequences if any of so doing. 

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/183b-28.htm 

*Chapter 183B: Section 30. Financial records* 

Section 30. A person who has a duty to make assessments for time-share expenses shall keep financial records sufficiently detailed to enable him to comply with section forty-two. All financial and other records shall be made reasonably available for examination by any time-share owner or his authorized agent.

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/183b-30.htm 

*Chapter 183B: Section 32. Definitions; list of addresses of owners; ballots; communication expenses; vote allocation; notice; recording amendments* 

Section 32. (a) For the purposes of this section and sections thirty-three, thirty-four and thirty-five:

(1) “Owner” shall mean a person who is an owner or co-owner of a time-share estate or a time-share license or, in the case of a unit that is not a time-share unit, a person who is an owner or co-owner of said unit, other than as security for an obligation. 

(2) A project is limited to one in which at least fifty per cent of the votes are allocated to time-shares other than time-share licenses. 

(b) The managing entity shall keep reasonably available for inspection and copying by any time-share owner all addresses, known to it or to the developer, of all the time-share owners with the principal permanent residence address of each indicated if known. The managing entity shall revise continually the list of addresses in the light of any information it obtains, and the developer shall keep the managing entity advised of any information he has or obtains. 

(c) Each ballot prepared pursuant to sections thirty-three, thirty-four and thirty-five shall contain: 

(1) a statement that the ballot shall not be counted unless signed by an owner; 

(2) the specification of a date, not less than thirty or more than one hundred and eighty days after the date the ballot is mailed, by which the ballot must be received by the person to whom it is to be returned, and a statement that the ballot shall not be counted unless received by said date; 

(3) the name and address of the person to whom the ballot is to be returned; and 

(4) only the material required by sections nineteen to thirty-five, inclusive. 

(d) Each ballot mailed pursuant to sections thirty-three, thirty-four and thirty-five shall be mailed to the principal permanent residence of the owner to whom it is addressed, if known to the person responsible for mailing it, and said person shall procure and keep reasonably available for inspection for at least one year after the vote is calculated a certificate of mailing for each and the original or a copy of each ballot returned by the date specified pursuant to clause (2) of subsection (c). 

(e) If the managing entity, the developer, or anyone on behalf of either of them communicates with any owner, other than as expressly provided by section thirty-three, thirty-four or thirty-five on the subject matter of any petition or ballot prepared pursuant to any of said sections, the expense of said communication shall not be assessed directly or indirectly in whole or in part to any owner other than the developer. 

(f) The vote allocated to any time-share and to any unit other than a time-share unit shall be counted as having been cast in accordance with the ballot of any owner of that time-share or unit. If the ballots of different owners of the same time-share unit, or of the same unit other than a time-share unit, are not in accord with one another, the vote allocated to that time-share or unit shall be divided in proportion to the number of owners thereof voting each way and shall be counted accordingly. Any ballot that is not signed by an owner or is not received by the date specified pursuant to clause (2) of subsection (c) shall be void. 

(g) The managing entity shall take action reasonably calculated to notify all owners of the resolution of any matters resolved by methods authorized by section thirty-three, thirty-four or thirty-five. 

(h) An amendment to a project instrument adopted pursuant to section thirty-three or thirty-four shall be recorded in the appropriate registry of deeds or land registration office forthwith by the managing entity with a statement of the vote and shall become effective upon recording. 

(i) No right or power of an owner under this section or section thirty-three, thirty-four or thirty-five may be waived, limited, or delegated by contract, power of attorney, proxy, or otherwise, in favor of the developer, an affiliate of a developer, a managing entity, or any person designated by any of them.

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/183b-32.htm


----------



## Sanford

*Please Include me and IS ANYONE CONTACTING REBECCA?*

I would like to be included, we should organize and circulate a list of deeded owners to come up with a number that we have so that we can have a block and proxies of any others we may know to be able to show up and vote in force.

Has anyone been in touch with Rebecca who has posted on here and who as an attorney and daughter of a deeded owner has been willing to assist??

Rebecca can be reached at Southcapeowners@gmail.com


----------



## bobcat

Sanford said:


> I would like to be included, we should organize and circulate a list of deeded owners to come up with a number that we have so that we can have a block and proxies of any others we may know to be able to show up and vote in force.
> 
> Has anyone been in touch with Rebecca who has posted on here and who as an attorney and daughter of a deeded owner has been willing to assist??
> 
> Rebecca can be reached at Southcapeowners@gmail.com



Is everybody paying the 400.00?.   I have a friend checking on some things for me who lives near there.  I can not make the May 16th meeting.


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## Russ45

Sanford said:


> I would like to be included, we should organize and circulate a list of deeded owners to come up with a number that we have so that we can have a block and proxies of any others we may know to be able to show up and vote in force.
> 
> Has anyone been in touch with Rebecca who has posted on here and who as an attorney and daughter of a deeded owner has been willing to assist??
> 
> Rebecca can be reached at Southcapeowners@gmail.com


I have sent Rebecca the masterdeed link by email as well as my initial thoughts which I posted.


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## Sanford

*I paid my $ 400.00 for my 3 weeks but*

I wonder if $ 400.00/ week is being paid by NEVS and Mr. Hagberg for thye weeks they purchased??????


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## Sou13

*Maintenance Fees	$978,986.00*



Sanford said:


> I wonder if $ 400.00/ week is being paid by NEVS and Mr. Hagberg for thye weeks they purchased??????




Maintenance Fees	$978,986.00 from how many members?

More of us need to email rcassidy@southcaperesort.com for answers.  I will collect unanswered questions to bring to the meeting of the advisory council if there ever is any such council or meeting, but in the meantime we all need to be clamoring for answers!


----------



## Sou13

*1800 MF-Paying Members?*



Sou13 said:


> Maintenance Fees	$978,986.00 from how many members?



By my calculations, if this doesn't include the reserve, that would be 1800 members paying MFs in 2009.  (I don't know how to operate a cell phone calculator!)


----------



## Sou13

*RE: If you go to Southcape*



Sou13 said:


> If you want to hear what the Outfield Marketing rep has to say, his sales office is in Unit 132*.  That's an in-house #.
> 
> *The first unit on the right as you keep to the right around the cull-de-sac of Southcape II



I was wrong about the Unit #.  It can't be 134 if Southcape II begins with 132.

It's actually Unit 32 but to call in-house you must enter #132.

Don't expect to be approached by a sales rep.  Do look around the guest lounge for catalogs of Interval International, RCI and the Festiva Adventure Club, and if none can be found, inquire why.

Since I had such a problem attaching scanned documents to email, I have broken down the Master Deed into attachable downloadable segments.  Today I copied and attached the TIME SHARE SUPPLEMENT TO DECLARATION OF TRUST.  If you go to Southcape, you have the right to inspect the books!


----------



## Russ45

The annual owner's meeting is May 16th this year.  Does anyone know if the Trustees election is held that day?


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## Sou13

*Let's all be on the same page*



Russ45 said:


> The masterdeed posted by SOU13 is very important document for everyone to read since it contains the by-laws for all unit owner.  I've been looking at the by-laws briefly in relationship to the special assessment and it looks like Article IV section 4.0 is the justification for the extrodinary assessment and March 1st is the correct due date for a legally applied assessment.  However if you look at Article III Section V under (c) Action you will see there needs to be a vote which includes all unit holders to initiate capital improvements over $10,000, by-law amendment and even the sale of the property of the Corporation.  They are also required to send us 21 day notice by mail of any regular meeting and 10 day notice for any special meeting, which was not done and we would have a vote, in presence or by proxy.  Also, elsewhere in the by-laws the board needs to be elected by all unit owners on an annual basis.  The current Board was not elected by the unit owners.  And, the by-laws may not be amended unless by vote of 80% of all unit owners. There is also a provision to remove board members.  I intend on fully reading the bylaws soon but at first glance over portions of the document but I* don't believe the current board members have authority to levy a special assessment.*  Again, these are the by-laws currently in effect and cannot be changed or amended unless a vote by all deeded unit owners allows it.  Please read this document as it seems the board members truly do not have appropriate authority over the resort as they may have well been self appointed.



I've given up on the idea of attaching segments to email for reference.  The way to get us on the same page here is to first click on the link to the Master Deed in my signature.  Then click on "Pages" on the left and scroll down to the page indicated.

Article IV Section 4.0 is found on p. 28.
Article III Section 5(c) is found on p. 27

We need more discussion here!  Have you noticed that FestivaRep found it necessary to reply to the "Festiva Adventure Club" discussion and has verified that Festiva has entered into a contract with Outfield Marketing to market the Club?  Did Cliff Hagberg make that clear in his introductory letter?  Why isn't he marketing Intervals at Southcape instead of contracting with Outfield Marketing to coerce or scare us into converting to Festiva points?

Have all of you gone underground because you are attempting to contact Cliff Hagberg anonymously?  I have a template of a letter I can email you upon request, but I really want more posters here in this discussion just to keep the issue alive and outfront while I search for other means of attracting Southcape owners to the need to tell the Outfield Marketers to take a hike!


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## Sou13

*Whatever became of Carol Briggs?*

In my search for ways to locate and contact Southcape owners I put in the Search terms "Southcape Resort" and "owners" and am now combing through more than 6,000 Results, most of them for timeshare resales, but found this post by Carol Briggs at  http://www.tstoday.com/members/magazine/issue39/southcape.htm


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## Sou13

*Cestuis que trustent*

Article II Section 2.3 p. 124 expressly declares that Unit Owners are _Cestuis que trustent_:  



> cestui que trust n. (properly pronounced ses-tee kay, but lawyers popularly pronounce it setty kay) from old French. 1) an old fashioned expression for the beneficiary of a trust. 2) "the one who trusts" or the person who will benefit from the trust and will receive payments or a future distribution from the trust's assets. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Cestui+que+trust



Now continue on the page to Article III to answer Russ45's question.  It appears that Unit Owners are entitled to at least one seat on the board.  How to get that seat is spelled out in this article.  *Comments, please?*


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## Sou13

*See my post in the Festiva Adventure Club discussion*

Because duplicate posts are not allowed I am providing the link to a very important post in the Festiva Adventure Club discussion.  This is important info for any Southcape interval owners who have not emailed me for the Public Disclosure Statement.

This discussion has become important enough to Festiva to have FestivaRep reply, but we need to keep this discussion alive in order to reach out to yet unidentified Southcape owners.  We are running out of time if we are to take any action at the annual meeting May 16!


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## Russ45

Special Assessment Budget

Condo I (Units 1-24)
Siding, roofing. painting and replacement
of Toned trim. $275,000

Condo I (Units 1-24)
Interior renovations: replacement of
furniture. carpeting & painting. $450,000

Alarm system repairs
$12,000

Phone system replacement
$12,000

Computer system for reservations
$25,000

Condo II
Painting and replacement of rotted trim as
necessary. $50,000

New Web site & \Wireless Internet
Access for the entire resort. $18,000

A recent inspection of the septic system
has indicated that the entire system
needs repair. 6 of the septics need
relatively minor repairs. $15,000

Repair of 6 septics:
3 of the septics failed.
We are currently working with the state
department to find the best approach to
solving this problem. $75,000 (working estimate)

Operating loss for 2008 $157,000

Total: $1,089,000


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## Russ45

SOUTHCAPE RESORT AND CLUB
TRUSTEE'S MEETING

January 23, 2009

CALL MEETING TO ORDER

Cliff Hagberg called the meeting to order at 2:30 p.m. The meeting was held
telephonically.

ATTENDANCE/ROLL CALL
Trustees: Cliff Hagberg, Tom Franks, Steve Lamantia
MEETING MINUTES
The minutes from the previous meeting were accepted and approved
OLD BUSINESS
Septic system - spoke with Brian Dudley of MA DEP. May not require a sewage
treatment plan depending on what septic plans show and what repairs are needed. Will
meet with Mr. Dudley when plans are ready.
Parking lot - Cliff Hagberg and Atty. Bianchi met with Town Counsel, Town Manager
and Selectman. Reached verbal agreement for shared use of the parking area. Waiting
action by Board of Selectmen.
Renovation plans - Estimates reviewed for exterior and interior renovations, etc. Timing
for renovations is very good as contractors needing work and prices have come down.
Can save significant money if we begin right away. Once this work is completed, the
deferred maintenance should be up to date and no additional assessment is anticipated.
The final assessment per interval week is $400. After discussion, motion, second and
vote the special assessment was approved and will be billed inunediately so that work can
begin prior to the summer season. Management authorized to work out payment plan
with owners facing financial difficulties.
NEW BUSINESS
New business will be taken up at the next trustee meeting.
SCHEDULE/CONFIRM NEXT TRUSTEE MEETING
The next trustee meeting will be held in late March or early April. Date and time to be
determined.
ADJOURNMENT
After motion and second, the meeting was adjourned at 3:55 p.m.


It's worth a question to Cliff when the next meeting will take place, again, they have to notify the owners.


----------



## Sou13

Russ45 said:


> It's worth a question to Cliff when the next meeting will take place, again, they have to notify the owners.



Huh?  When have they *ever* notified the owners?  

Are you referring to the next Board meeting or the annual meeting?

Thank you for posting, Russ45!  Were the actions of the Board *legal*?

It is my belief that we Interval owners have the right to expand the size of the Board up to 9, and to elect members from among ourselves. (Scroll down the sidebar pages of the Master Deed to p. 26)

I don't agree with the Board's right to decide what capital improvements need to be done and to hand us the bill.  Upgrading units when they are supposed to be available for occupancy is a violation of the owners' rights.


----------



## Gizmosis

I am new to this web site as a member, but have been following. My wife and I have been visited by Outfield Mkt. and refused to convert to Festiva Points. I'm glad I ran across these postings before they visited. You all have been working very hard. 
  We have been owners at Southcape since 1982 and have never had to deal with an assessment like this.
  I do understand the need for updating, but I don't understand why everything has to be done at once. Seems repairs have been spread over time before.  
   Is everyone paying the assessment before April?
  We have never attended an owners meeting, but one of us , if not both,  will be there this year.
   Don't have a lot of resources or time, but would like to help when and if I can.
    Still trying to catch up and learn the ins and outs of this site, but will visit site when I can.


----------



## Sanford

*Rebecca*

Rebecca seems to have disappeared.
I triued emailing her at teh address she listed, and then found her name and the law firm she was with and emailed her there as well.

I have had no answer to any emails....

Rebecca where are you?

Hope there really is a Rebecca and it wasn't a ploy of some of the hostile takeover folks et.el....


----------



## Russ45

Sou13 said:


> Huh?  When have they *ever* notified the owners?
> 
> Are you referring to the next Board meeting or the annual meeting?
> 
> Thank you for posting, Russ45!  Were the actions of the Board *legal*?
> 
> It is my belief that we Interval owners have the right to expand the size of the Board up to 9, and to elect members from among ourselves. (Scroll down the sidebar pages of the Master Deed to p. 26)
> 
> I don't agree with the Board's right to decide what capital improvements need to be done and to hand us the bill.  Upgrading units when they are supposed to be available for occupancy is a violation of the owners' rights.


If you look at my post from March 9, my interpretation of the by-laws is that they need to notify all deeded unit owners prior to a special board meeting or scheduled board meeting.  The meeting minutes I posted indicated that they were going to have another board meeting late March/early april which is not the annual owner's meeting. We should request to participate since they are not sending notices.  This may be nothing more than a teleconference call.  Also in my March 9 post I note that I think they were supposed to have a vote by all deeded owners for capital improvemts over $10,000, which didn't happen obviously.


----------



## Sanford

So these questions loom:
1) How do we determine how many deeded owners we have access to to communicate with. 
2) What can we do as an organized effort of same to get some answers
3) Did the weeks purchased by NEVS et.al. pay their $ 400.00 special assessment?


----------



## Sou13

Gizmosis said:


> I am new to this web site as a member, but have been following. My wife and I have been visited by Outfield Mkt. and refused to convert to Festiva Points. I'm glad I ran across these postings before they visited. You all have been working very hard.
> We have been owners at Southcape since 1982 and have never had to deal with an assessment like this.
> I do understand the need for updating, but I don't understand why everything has to be done at once. Seems repairs have been spread over time before.
> Is everyone paying the assessment before April?
> We have never attended an owners meeting, but one of us , if not both,  will be there this year.
> Don't have a lot of resources or time, but would like to help when and if I can.
> Still trying to catch up and learn the ins and outs of this site, but will visit site when I can.



Welcome, Gizmosis!  I'm glad you learned enough from this discussion to not let Outfield Marketing scare you into "converting" to Festiva "points"!

You might also benefit from the 
"Festiva Adventure Club"
 discussion which Festiva has found important or threatening enough to refer to FestivaRep.

I've been busy trying to locate other Southcape owners before it's too late.  We need to organize ASAP!


----------



## Sou13

*Owners' Group on another forum*

I've joined another forum and started a Southcape Owners group at http://www.timeshareforums.com/forums/groups/southcape-resort.html in an attempt to locate Southcape owners.  I've found less than a dozen but at this very moment one of them is at Southcape and I hope will come back with some news about how to get access to the owners' addresses.

I'm still waiting for a reply from Cliff Hagberg.  Are there 1800 deeded Interval owners?  What about those who have converted to points?  Does Festiva pay Southcape $593.88 for every Southcape owner who converted to points?

Russ45 I can't thank you enough for all you've done.  Good work!


----------



## Sou13

*Still not 51%*

Still wondering whether the MF for 2009 includes the "reserve" I divided it by $593.88 and got 1648 which still doesn't give NEVS 51% of the weeks.

Still searching for Southcape owners, I may have found another one here on TUG.  And I'm still studying the Master Deed and trying to figure out how to stop the management from collecting $400 apiece for upgrades we don't need at the present moment.  I don't intend to pay if we can find a way to challenge the Board.  Even the septic system may not be in as dire straits as presented here.

Again and again the "Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions" indicates that construction etc. must not interfere with unit owners use of weeks.


----------



## Sanford

*Where is Rebecca*

Where is Rebecca? Was she for real or ...........?

I hope the former and perhaps away on vacation


----------



## Sou13

*Another Southcape owner found*



Sou13 said:


> Still wondering whether the MF for 2009 includes the "reserve" I divided it by $593.88 and got 1648 which still doesn't give NEVS 51% of the weeks.
> 
> Still searching for Southcape owners, I may have found another one here on TUG.  And I'm still studying the Master Deed and trying to figure out how to stop the management from collecting $400 apiece for upgrades we don't need at the present moment.  I don't intend to pay if we can find a way to challenge the Board.  Even the septic system may not be in as dire straits as presented here.
> 
> Again and again the "Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions" indicates that construction etc. must not interfere with unit owners use of weeks.



I contacted two Southcape owners whom I found in my online search yesterday and one of them replied, but as yet I don't know whether it was the TUG member or the Yahoo! Groups member who is still a Southcape owner.  If it was the TUG member I hope to see a post here soon.

I've been trying to determine for certain what our rights as deeded Interval owners are.  Here are some of my thoughts to date:

In the case of Southcape, I'm coming to the conclusion, from studying the Master Deed, that Southcape owners have had a _laissez-faire_ attitude so long as the maintenance fees weren't going up precipitously and supposed that what we didn't know couldn't hurt us.

Well, what we didn't know *has* hurt us.  We didn't even know our rights!

If my reading of the Master Deed is correct, we have the right to elect one member to the Board of Trustees to replace one of the current Trustees, because there should be one member representing the Unit owners.  We have the right to be notified of the meeting dates and times either six or 21 days in advance of the annual meeting (In this case I propose that it should be 21 days because the next meeting date was not set in the uncirculated minutes of the 2008 meeting and the date specified in the Master Deed is July 31).  We have the right to expect to receive copies of the annual reports at the end of the fiscal year instead of having to go to unannounced annual meetings to hear these reports.  We have the right to object to these reports, because silence means consent.

It is also my belief that the notices to go out to all owners should include the agenda as set up in the Bylaws.  New business should be itemized on the agenda, including who is running for what.  Unless I'm reading it wrong, there should be an election at every meeting!*

We may also have the right to object to the "Special Assessment" in whole or in part.  I particularly object to the $450,000 for Interior renovations: Replacement of furniture carpeting & painting in Condo I (Units 1-24).  I stayed in Unit 8 in late November 2008 and see no need for this.  The reason refurbishing has been done piecemeal is that this work is supposed to be done as needed during the annual maintenance week so as not to interfere with owners' rights to the use of the Unit and time specified in their reservation letters.

When I asked for an extension of the deadline for anteing up the $400 I was offered a payment plan.  This is mandated in the Master Deed.  But I didn't ask what the terms of the plan are.  IMVHO we should not have to pay interest on payments made in this way so long as they are made on time.  The Trustees are supposed to be investing this money until it is being doled out to contractors, etc.  Some of these expenses have already been undertaken without our knowledge or consent, if we had any right whatsoever to object.

*See "Agenda" on p. 23 of Bylaws on page 041 (Book 3526) which is found by scrolling down the pp. sidebar to p. 45


----------



## Sanford

I paid my $ 400.00 for my 3 weeks and my friend paid his for 1 week.
We have a block of 4 weeks fixed that can be used in your voting efforts.


----------



## Sou13

*Is your friend counted among us?*



Sanford said:


> I paid my $ 400.00 for my 3 weeks and my friend paid his for 1 week.
> We have a block of 4 weeks fixed that can be used in your voting efforts.



Has your friend been posting here?  If not, would he be interested in those FAC documents I've been offering as email attachments?

Have you or your friend been visited by Outfield Marketing?  I'm interested in finding out what kind of offer is being made for weeks other than "green" . . . do "red" weeks get offered at least twice as many points as "green" but is the conversion fee still $3185?  What is the MF for "red" weeks which is supposedly less than the MF at Southcape?

Have you noticed that FestivaRep hasn't answered my question about the Southcape Board members?


----------



## Scott_Ru

We've been keeping up, and we have 3 deeded weeks at Southcape.  My wife will be at the upcoming Board Meeting to represent us.

Thanks for all your work on our behalf.


----------



## w.bob

Scott_Ru said:


> We've been keeping up, and we have 3 deeded weeks at Southcape.  My wife will be at the upcoming Board Meeting to represent us.
> 
> Thanks for all your work on our behalf.



I too have been trying to keep up with what is happening. I will also try to be at the May meeting.

I have yet to pay the special assessment of $400.00. Has anyone paid and is there a pro or con to paying?


----------



## Sou13

*Town of Mashpee acquires Condo III and the parking lot*



> http://www.assessedvalues.com/search.zhtml?jurcode=172
> Enter "950" in Loc1 and "Falmouth" in "Location"
> 6996 94 7 0 E MASHPEE TOWN OF 950  FALMOUTH RD 9030 21576 153 *$2,716,700.00*
> 
> *TRANSFER HISTORY*:
> MASHPEE TOWN OF: 12/04/2006
> MASHPEE TOWN OF: 07/11/2001
> FIRST AMERICAN BANK FOR: 12/07/1989



I've been taking another look at the Mashpee records since discovering that the Town of Mashpee owns what was supposed to be Condo III.  It appears that the Town of Mashpee became co-owners of 950 Falmouth Road subsequent to the arrival of Barth and Woods in the fall of 1989.  

I recall talk of mismanagement but never learned the details.  However, it was the management under Barth and Woods that was definitely responsible for the loss of two of the three parcels.

Every time property changes hands the government gets involved.  That's how it was discovered that the septic system needs work.  These are all part of the necessary upkeep of an estate.

I'm not advocating completely turning over control and management of Southcape Resort to the Interval owners because we are too scattered and busy to be able to manage it better.  What I'm campaigning for here is owner involvement in what we should regard to be our sacred rights and duties.  I'm guilty of burying my head in the sand for nearly a quarter of a century!  That's a long time to expect everything to remain the same!

I hope I haven't alienated Cliff Hagberg and the staff at Southcape by posting what I've posted here.  I hope that they are looking out for *Southcape FIRST*, and if not, then they owe us an explanation and apology.


----------



## Fig

*Info that may or may not be helpful*

Don’t know if any of this info is helpful, but I thought I would pass it along. Stumbled across your posts when I was researching buying at another property where Outfield has been hired.

Trustees of Southcape in a recent post were named as Clifford Hagberg, Steven Lamantia and Thomas C. Franks. People seem to know who Cliff is, but I found some info on Thomas and Stephen that might be of interest if it has not already been mentioned.

It appears Thomas might be the President of Outfield Marketing. Little aside…there was a Frank Thomas who played for Pittsburg as an outfielder in the 50s and 60s…hence the name of his company? Anyway, here is the link that lists him as Pres.

http://www.resorttrades.com/articles.php?showMag=Resort&act=view&id=233

Also found this on a Stephen Lamantia who was trying to make the same pitch of selling an owner points for a timeshare they already owned in Branson (he gets around?) but was asked to “please leave” the owner's home.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html

Scratching my head and wondering, does anybody think, in the age of the internet, that you can have hundreds of private meetings in peoples homes with the same exact pitch? The “private” meeting is then posted on the internet, over and over again. I have seen such detailed reports from multiple sources on these private meetings in peoples’ homes that I could probably make the presentation myself. 

Wishing you well Southcape...sounds like its made a lot of people happy over the years.


----------



## wmauryd

*timeshare marketing in recession*

It's not directly related to Southcape but you may be interested in reading about the $80k in unpaid vouchers, awarded by a Cape Cod timeshare marketing company, today on http://www.capecodonline.com/

How are sales going at Southcape anyone? Are promotional meal vouchers being awarded for tours?


----------



## Sou13

*Found by joining the Yahoo! group*

I had to be accepted as a member of this Equivest-PeppertreeOwners Yahoo! group even though I am a Southcape Resort interval owner.  Here's a post that will or should open Southcape owners' eyes:



> Well folks - HERE IT IS - the results of my meeting
> 
> I accept full responsibility for all misspellings (sic) and lack of humor.  Beyond that, consider this posting an effort to inform, help you with information but NOT an attempt to satisfy your individual feelings or desires.
> 
> I am home after a couple of days vacation with my wife in the mountains of North Carolina.  The trip included my visit to the offices of Festiva Resorts for a meeting with Davis Smith, Vice-President of Member Services, and Butch Patrick, President.  An interesting twist to the meeting was that Mr. Patrick did not attend the meeting but was replaced by Mr. Don Clayton, the founder and CEO of Festiva.  I feel change this was both fortuitous and beneficial.
> 
> The meeting began at 2pm and lasted for just over 2 hours during which time they had prepared answers to most of my questions and supplied me with documentation which I am still in the process of analyzing.
> 
> As I stated before the meeting, I was not there to represent any specific complaint or constituency grouping.  My view and goals for the meeting were fact finding and a general expression of concern.  I had three objectives:  I wanted to understand the mechanism of maintenance fees assessment, the strategy of Festiva as it relates to the future of The Equivest Vacation Club, and finally to discuss the matter of ethics concerning their sales and marketing departments.
> 
> I came away from the meeting feeling that I had achieved my objectives.  I was heard, they understood my issues and I have a good understanding of their rationale and direction.  While I do not agree with them in all points, I understand their business position and they understand my concerns.  When presented with logical arguments, I felt they were accepting of my personal views and have indicated that they would entertain consideration of a couple of my recommendations.
> 
> I felt fortunate that they had invited me for the meeting.  While I did present a number of personal matters relating to my membership and those of my two children, I also discussed the views of many of the members of the user community.  The following is a summary of the discussion which took place.  They are not representative of my concurrence or disagreement.  They are presented to provide information which I feel allows each individual to arrive at their own conclusion.
> 
> 
> 1.                  There are two types of members in the Peppertree/Equivest Vacation Club structure, “charter” members and “points” members.  Charter members own deeded weeks specific to a time and property while points members have the opportunity to exchange points for available weeks in any given property within the Equivest inventory.  Both New and Charter members have the ability to exchange points for available weeks at any given property within the Equivest Club inventory.  The only difference between the two types of memberships is that Charter members own a deeded week at one of the club resorts and they have assigned the beneficial use rights of that week to the Equivest Club.
> 
> 2.                  At the time of acquisition of Peppertree/EVC by Festiva there were over 10,000 in combined memberships.  There are currently 5,675 members of which approximately 1,800 are in default of their current dues.  All default members  are EVC “points” members including both New and Charter members.
> 
> 3.                  No new memberships in EVC have been sold since 2002, the time at which EVC was acquired by Fairfield.  Fairfield, Wyndham, and Festiva made conscious decisions not to market EVC because they felt they each offered better products with their own offerings and saw it as a conflict of interest to market against their ‘better’ offering.
> 
> 4.                  After the sale of EVC to Fairfield, former employees of Peppertree/EVC decided to create a new company with their own product – the Festiva Adventure Club.  The endeavor was independent and actually competitive to their former but purchased company.  Fairfield and subsequently Wyndham were significantly larger companies with no common management or operating boards with Festiva.  After these employees left Equivest they started Festiva in 2000 and in 2006 Festiva started to sell the Festiva Adventure Club.
> 
> 5.                  Festiva does not offer deeded properties – they are a points based time share company.
> 
> 6.                  The non-chartered inventory of weeks owned by EVC at the time Festiva acquired EVC represented 108% of the required inventory to satisfy the 1:1 Trust ratio.  The 108% comprised both non-charted and chartered weeks. The current percentage is approximately 103% with excess inventory being transferred to Festiva as owners of EVC convert.
> 
> 7.                  Any inventory within EVC that is defaulted because of failure to pay dues is removed from the EVC inventory and transferred to Festiva who then become liable for future maintenance fees as “charter” owners of that property week.
> 
> 8.                  The Festiva Adventure Club currently has 13,110 members and owns 14,580 interval weeks which is a 111% of the required ratio.  The ratio for inventory for FAC is determined based on the number of points sold versus the point value of the weeks in the trust.  It is not determined strictly by weeks/members.
> 
> 9.                  The clauses in disclosure agreements to release Festiva from any agreements made outside the contract (such as those made by a specific sales person) are necessary as protection for the Corporation. There are specific corporate policies and procedures that employees are to follow.  Festiva has taken actions, including termination, when specific documented cases are presented where these policies were not followed.  This applies to both employees and 3rd party contractors engaged in sales for Festiva.
> 
> 10.              The current practice is to contact a customer, within the 5 day recession period, to make sure the terms of the contract are understood and misrepresentation has not taken place.  This process is only in place for people who purchased through the 3rd party company Outfield Marketing. There are a number of instances where corrective action has taken place including invalidating the contract.  It is however, the responsibility of each customer to read and understand the terms of the contract as in any real estate purchase.
> 
> 11.              The core values of Festiva are published and each employee is expected to adhere to them.  Reporting and providing documentation of violations of the policies are encouraged and will result in appropriate action.
> 
> 12.              The cost of conversion of a membership to Festiva Adventure Club from EVC is appropriate.  The costs cover deed transfer, legal fees, labor costs, commissions for sales personnel and profit margin.
> 
> 13.              The perception that Festiva Adventure Club members have more access to Peppertree properties than EVC members is inaccurate.  The percentage of memberships in Peppertree locations is higher in EVC and therefore requires more weeks be reserved for EVC members than Festiva members.  This percentage is true of all locations except Blue Ridge Village 1 & 2, and Tamarack.
> 
> 14.              Maintenance costs are comprised of two pieces, a base and per point charge.  There is a difference between the maintenance fees of deeded fixed week owners and points members.  This difference can be significantly attributed to the management fees associated with the Festiva parent company and the additional costs of running a reservations department to accommodate the ‘floating week’ nature of “points” ownership.  The costs of administering fixed week deeded owners is significantly less.
> 
> 15.              Since acquisition of EVC by Festiva, the membership fees have averaged a 8.1% compounded increase.  Increases under either Fairfield or Wyndham cannot be compared to those of Festiva because of differing methods of allocation of corporate overhead.
> 
> 16.              With the number of default memberships, the fees for EVC members can be expected to continue to increase.
> 
> 17.              It is not the stated goal of Festiva to eliminate EVC but rather to encourage conversion.  At some point in time, the membership of EVC will shrink to the point that fees become to expensive and the membership will decide to dissolve the Club.
> 
> 18.              The Trust Agreement for the EVC does not allow for points members to drop their membership at time of death – it is specifically covered in the agreement.  The membership covers an asset and the estate is required to continue to protect that asset.
> 
> 19.              EVC revenues decreased from $8,401,516 in 2008 to $5,609,683 in 2009, a reduction of 33.2%.
> 
> 20.              The number of members (both “charter” and points) dropped by over 37%.  This resulted in a lower base to distribute the costs resulting in a significant portion of the increased maintenance fees especially when considering the additional costs associated with administering “points” over “charter” membership.
> 
> 21.              In October of 2008, approximately 740 “points” weeks were move out of the EVC inventory to FAC for default/delinquency.
> 
> 22.              Conversions to FAC from Peppertree/EVC in December were approximately 65 and for January, 2009 were approximately 50.
> 
> 23.              The most recent Trust Agreement for EVC is recorded in Haywood County on 05/09/2002 and represents the Third Amended and Restated Trust Agreement.
> 
> 24.              Under the terms of the trust agreement, original and restated, the management of EVC selects the Board of Directors and they are responsible for any amendments and revisions to the Trust Agreement.
> 
> 
> 
> The above points are the basic summarization of materials and discussions from the representatives of Festiva at the meeting.  I have intentionally left out anything involving the personal side of my discussion for obvious reasons.
> 
> The following are my personal thoughts on a few of the matters discussed.
> 
> 1.                  I brought to their attention my request for membership information under sections 7.01d and 8.05 in the Trust Agreement.  After discussion, I consulted with my attorney and concur with their response - the Trust Agreement sections are superseded by State and Federal privacy laws similar to those instituted in the medical profession and other industries precluding the release of “personally identifiable” information.  This is understandable when considering the issues of identity theft and sale of mailing lists.
> 
> 2.                  I was very interested in the concern of Mr. Clayton regarding the matter of ethics.  He stated that ethics was the primary reason for his involvement in the meeting.  It was, in my opinion, a true concern.  I wished that I could have given him “documentation” for instances where sales people had violated their code.  Verbal, first or second party statements are not documentation that can be used for disciplinary action.  If there are enough verbal statements, it can institute cautions, retraining, and further research.  I was given enough evidence that actions have been taken when there was actual documentation.  I also understood that people had been terminated for cause when there was a pattern directed at one or more individuals.  What I did not see was a corporate disregard for the issue.
> 
> 3.                  The current 3rd party marketing firm is Outfield (?) Marketing.  Festiva is contacting individuals after the ‘informational’ (?) call to insure the understanding of the individual.  This seems to be a fairly new practice.
> 
> 4.                  I feel the days for EVC are limited.  With the rate of conversion, increased defaults, and current economic times, it is only a matter of a couple of years before membership will be calling for EVC to be dissolved.  If EVC is dissolved, we all lose.  Memberships disappear and our access to Interval International also goes away.  We are faced with conversion or riding the “mule” until it collapses.
> 
> 5.                  I did recommend that the Trust Agreement be changed with regards to section 5.02.  This section allows for an estate or beneficiaries mentioned in a will of a “Charter member” to discontinue membership 2 years after written notification.  My suggestion was to allow all current members to withdraw membership after two years of written notice, without damaging their credit.  This was an item they were going to look into.  I am not sure it really matters because of the life expectancy of the EVC.
> 
> 
> Three final notes:
> 
> 1.                  I had a chance to get a look at Festiva from a different perspective than I had previously.   While I disagree with them on several points, I found them to be sound business men from a strategic planning perspective.  The fact that they were not a part of the Fairfield or Wyndham organizations dismisses the thought that they are in the business of “thrashing” or turning over memberships.
> 
> 2.                  They read our user group postings(no surprise) – they find some of those posting reasonable but others just want to rant.  I concur.
> 
> 3.                  I do not intend to defend my methods or conclusions.  I was operating independently and said, and did, what I judged was judicious and proper.  If there is strong disagreement, address it with Festiva – I did.


----------



## Russ45

w.bob said:


> I too have been trying to keep up with what is happening. I will also try to be at the May meeting.
> 
> I have yet to pay the special assessment of $400.00. Has anyone paid and is there a pro or con to paying?


They can charge 18% interest according to the by-laws and possibly levy a penalty under Mass Law and can keep you from your interval.  That being said, I'm still not convinced they have the authority to levy the assessment as a special meeting was called with no notifications and the unit owners did not vote on the capital improvements.


----------



## Sou13

*The Board met*



Russ45 said:


> They can charge 18% interest according to the by-laws and possibly levy a penalty under Mass Law and can keep you from your interval.  That being said, I'm still not convinced they have the authority to levy the assessment as a special meeting was called with no notifications and the unit owners did not vote on the capital improvements.



My reading of the Bylaws leads me to believe that the Board can meet without notifying the Unit owners.  However, the Board itself is the problem.  It has been verified (see *Fig*'s post) that the two other Board members are principals of Outfield Marketing.  Between NEVS, FAC and Outfield Marketing, there may be as many as 800+ votes that will definitely *NOT* be in the best interest of deeded owners.

I'm trying to figure out how many deeded interval owners have to be present at the meeting to constitute a "quorum" and if I'm reading it correctly, it should be around 600.  If NEVS, FAC and Outfield Marketing have 800+ votes we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting anything done in our favor.

*Please go to BOOK 3526 PAGE 039 (scroll down to p. 43) to find the "Meetings of the Corporation" section on p. 21ff of the Bylaws.  The link to the Master Deed is in my signature.*

Is anyone willing to send the Trustees written notification that the "special assessment" for Capital Improvements is in violation of the Bylaws?


----------



## shoestore

*Southcape*



Russ45 said:


> I own one interval at Southcape and bought it two years ago.  I received the special assessment notice too but a couple of things struck me as odd, first there was only an invoice and a generic letter which was unsigned and not on letterhead with no supporting documents attached, which is not what I would expect from an actual property manager, or any business for that matter.  I emailed rcassidy to question the legitimacy of this letter and asked for the by-laws, meeting minutes of the board and board member names, but have not heard back yet.  Frankly, my first reaction was that this was a scam as some sort of phishing expedition because of the lack of identity and the short period they gave to pay or else!  If it isn't a scam, I am not planning on paying for a special assessment unless I see some sort of guarantee this money will be used on the resort itself and the meeting minutes and by-laws.  If I can't get any information or at least acknowlegement from NEV I will probably have my lawyer look into it or turn it over to the AG's office.  Their special assessment is 67% of the entire yearly operating budget which is very suspicious and I would like for them to show me they are putting in $500,000 to $1,000,000 worth of improvements this year, which is what they would collect if everyone pays this.  Anyone else get the feeling that this isn't quite legit?



[Quote -Flora} We are also owners - arrived home from holidays to get this assessment letter
Please advise me if you get a response from rcassidy.  Are they for real in these economic times expecting people to cough up $400.00? with 20 days notice.  Sounds pretty amateurish!!! No mention of Bd of Directors, owners association etc.  Certainly doesn't sound legit - have never heard of a timeshare being operated like this - it is very alarming!  Makes one wonder if our equity/ownership is in danger of being annihilated.


----------



## Sou13

*Helpful info*

ecwinch has posted some helpful info on the "Festiva takes over resort" discussion.  If he can't help with the specific Massachusetts laws at least he's pointing us in the right direction.


----------



## bendeben

*A Southcape Owner*

I've been reading this board for the last few days and this just smells bad and reeks of a scam just barely staying on the edge of legality!

My wife and I have been owners at Southcape since 1983. We've been through the Indian and town assessors dispute at Southcape. In both cases the owners prevailed with the help of the MA AG. 

We have not been to Southcape resort for about 15 years having moved to Texas. But, we do trade our 2 weeks every year through II. As a matter of fact we just came back from a trade to Las Vegas.  

Please note me as an owner and let me know if there is anything I can do.


----------



## Sou13

*Welcome, bendeben!*



bendeben said:


> I've been reading this board for the last few days and this just smells bad and reeks of a scam just barely staying on the edge of legality!
> 
> My wife and I have been owners at Southcape since 1983. We've been through the Indian and town assessors dispute at Southcape. In both cases the owners prevailed with the help of the MA AG.
> 
> We have not been to Southcape resort for about 15 years having moved to Texas. But, we do trade our 2 weeks every year through II. As a matter of fact we just came back from a trade to Las Vegas.
> 
> Please note me as an owner and let me know if there is anything I can do.



Could you shed some light on that tax dispute and how active the owners were at the time?  You might be able to steer us in the right direction!


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> My reading of the Bylaws leads me to believe that the Board can meet without notifying the Unit owners.  However, the Board itself is the problem.  It has been verified (see *Fig*'s post) that the two other Board members are principals of Outfield Marketing.  Between NEVS, FAC and Outfield Marketing, there may be as many as 800+ votes that will definitely *NOT* be in the best interest of deeded owners.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how many deeded interval owners have to be present at the meeting to constitute a "quorum" and if I'm reading it correctly, it should be around 600.  If NEVS, FAC and Outfield Marketing have 800+ votes we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting anything done in our favor.
> 
> *Please go to BOOK 3526 PAGE 039 (scroll down to p. 43) to find the "Meetings of the Corporation" section on p. 21ff of the Bylaws.  The link to the Master Deed is in my signature.*
> 
> Is anyone willing to send the Trustees written notification that the "special assessment" for Capital Improvements is in violation of the Bylaws?



Just remember that the majority of owners who actually send anything in send their proxies. When the board controls the proxies they can win with a small percentage of ownership at the resort. I was thinking about this as I mailed my proxies on 2 weeks I own in Gatlinburg to the board to vote as they see fit. I reread the letter and it not only said that they would vote all proxies for the incumbent board member, it recommended that all owners vote for the incumbent. Once the board is cntrolled by the developer the owners are in a bad situation unless the board is looking out for the owners. The Festiva board is looking out for no one but Festiva IMO!!!!.


----------



## ecwinch

Not a SC owner or a lawyer, so take this for what it is worth. After reading this thread and reading the Mass. TimeShare Law, if I was an owner, I would try to determine the legal roles of the various parties involved. Mass law has some very specific limitations on what the developer can do, so if NEVS was classified as the developer, then I would think you would have solid basis for at least a complaint with the Mass AG.

“Developer”, any person who (i) offers to dispose of or disposes of his interest in a time-share not previously disposed of, or (ii) succeeds under section twenty-two to any special developer right."

clearly (i) does not apply, as it appears that most of weeks NEVS controls are foreclosures. But it would be important to know who, if anyone, retains the special developer right. There is no doubt that NEVS is behaving like the developer, assigning Outfield as the Project Broker, establishing a sales office, et al.

If NEVS retained the Special Developer Rights, they needed to record that fact. I would start there. Again - not a lawyer, but from the provision above it would appear that retention of that right would classify them as the Developer, providing owners with more protections.


----------



## massman631

I've read all of the posts and seen a lot of speculation, rumor and innuendo and I'm trying to understand what's going on.  Does the resort not need to fix the roofs, replace and siding and upgrade the septic systems?  Seems reasonable to me but maybe I don't really understand.

Why the assumption that these new guys are bad guys?  Sounds like they're trying to fix things that should have been fixed a long time ago.  I want my resort to be in good shape and my maintenance fee hasn't gone up at all in the past few years.  Wish I could say the same for my expenses at home.

I don't know, I'm just not ready to make the assumption that Hagberg, et al are all bad guys.  Maybe we should hear what they have to say?


----------



## tombo

massman631 said:


> I've read all of the posts and seen a lot of speculation, rumor and innuendo and I'm trying to understand what's going on.  Does the resort not need to fix the roofs, replace and siding and upgrade the septic systems?  Seems reasonable to me but maybe I don't really understand.
> 
> Why the assumption that these new guys are bad guys?  Sounds like they're trying to fix things that should have been fixed a long time ago.  I want my resort to be in good shape and my maintenance fee hasn't gone up at all in the past few years.  Wish I could say the same for my expenses at home.
> 
> I don't know, I'm just not ready to make the assumption that Hagberg, et al are all bad guys.  Maybe we should hear what they have to say?




Maybe you are a guest who lucked up on this web site and really trusts Festiva. On the other hand since you have a total of one posts after reading a total of 177 posts, perhaps you are an Outfield Mktg or Festiva  shill posting warm fuzzies about why we should all trust them.

Your MF's probably did remain the same for years because you had a mgt company that was watching out for every dollar like they were paid to do. New mgt comes with Festiva and your MF's sure did increase since Festive took control. They raise the MF's at every resort the take over, and they did it again at Southscape. They asess at every resort they take over, and they have already assessed at Southscape. Why the assumption that Festiva is bad for the resort and owners? Please read the previous posts here and on Equivest sites and on Atrium sites to look for positive comments about how they have treated owners at resorts they took over. You will find few positive comments (if any), but you will find plenty of mad owners. Search Festiva under google and see how many sites there are complaining about this organization. Name another resort developer that has been sued 2 times by 2 different groups in the last 4 years other than Festiva. Nothing predicts one's future actions better than one's past actions.

What needs to be fixed is that the owners need to get rid of Festia. The septic tanks might need to be replaced, but the septic tanks aren't stinking up the place nearly as bad as Festiva will IMO.  

 Hagberg's name has not been mentioned very often in these posts? After reading few if any positive remarks I am surprised that an owner would take up for any of Festiva's CEO's. Hagberg and the other CEO's apparently think that Festiva resorts exist to provide Festiva with sales and Mgt income.  The resorts should actually exist for the pleasure and enjoyment of the owners. After all it is the owners who pay the mgt company to provide great service and amenities at the cheapest price they can. If the mgt company can only operate by raising MF's and assessing, then the owners should take bids and hire a new more efficient mgt company. Festiva's mgt company has not been able to operate a single resort they acquired on a budget close to what was in place when they took over (from what I have seen). It always costs more money once Festiva starts to manage. That is not a positive thing that a mgt company would list on their resume.

I feel that this post was made by an officer or employee of Festiva, but I could be wrong. It will be hard to fool us by sliding in positive spin by a supposed owner. If you are an owner and first time poster (which I doubt) then I apologize. If you are a Festiva representative, that was a good first ghost post, but few of us will fall for it. It just didn't sound like anything a first time poster would say.


----------



## ecwinch

*Tombo* - put the pitchfork down and step away.

I agree that massman631 has all the earmarks of being a shill. At least ask some questions, give them at least two-three posts to show their true colors.

*Massman631* -  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. So here is your opportunity to prove that Tombo jumped to a wrong conclusion based on a few tell-tale signs. Tell us a little bit about yourself - how you found the TUG, any resorts you own at, and maybe a first name. 

Spend some time reading some of the older posts, and you will see that many members have had bad experiences with timeshare developers and their sales force. It is not an issue of are they taking the right steps, it is more about are they respecting owner rights in the operation and management of the resort. 

That their are no inherent conflict of interests between the BOD, management entity, and developer. When anyone other the owners makes statements like "we own" or says they are the "resort owner", it tends to be a challenge for the true owners.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, Eric and Tom!*

Thank you for your posts which should help us organize concerned owners.

In my search for Southcape owners I found this link:  http://www.mashpeechamber.com/home.php?5,,232606,mas232606,,,Index,home.html


----------



## Sou13

*Illegal Special Assessment*

I've been thinking that $300 of the $400 Special Assessment was imposed illegally by an illegally appointed Board of Trustees.  The part of the assessment that is for necessary repairs comes to about $100 and the rest is for capital improvements which cannot exceed $10,000 without the consent of the owners.

Anyone who wants to send a letter to the Board can email me for help.  Send me your thoughts and I'll reply ASAP.


----------



## Sou13

*About Cliff Hagberg*

Here's an interesting article about Cliff Hagberg.  Note that according to the article, Southcape Resort is "sold out"!



> Resort Management Software
> 
> Published March 1, 2009
> 
> by Matt Brosious
> Director of SalessU
> Systems Products International
> 
> 
> For resort managers, the current economic situation calls for new ideas for cost-cutting and time savings. Therefore, spending a little time exploring the latest in software technology might be to your advantage. Timeshare resorts are being held to an ever-higher standard for providing excellent service to, and communications with owners, or members, and guests. In addition to demanding 100 percent accuracy in data – particularly financial information – managers are realizing they can use the efficiencies inherent in the right software to substantially reduce staff hours.
> 
> Recently, Cliff Hagberg, chief executive officer of New England Vacation Management (NEVM), Cape Cod, Massachusetts, acquired new software technology to help manage a portfolio of several sold-out resorts. Wanting to communicate better with his owners and to have a more robust command of the data it takes to manage, and manage well, he turned to SPI for answers.
> 
> Centralized reservations
> Once upon a time, guests and owners would call on the phone and have their needs handled by a single individual at the resort. Like every resort management company, New England Vacation Management found their owners and prospective renters overwhelmingly preferred to review options and book vacations online. They also recognized that with the right software, this trend would be a big saver of staff time. They would no longer need to have a full-time, dedicated reservationist on-staff for any of their larger projects. And on smaller properties, their front desk personnel can give their full attention to the guest in front of them, rather than constantly excusing themselves to answer a ringing phone.
> 
> Specialized software developed specifically to handle the various intricacies of the timeshare business, such as tracking HOA, versus owner-week rentals, and keeping tabs on exchange weeks from multiple sources is key. Hagberg found that SPI’s system fit his operation like a glove. Information previously stored in several spreadsheets or files was immediately available on SPI including a complete record of each of New England Vacation Management’s owner information, with detailed contact and financial information. Another one of Hagberg’s demands was that the new software be easy to use, even by entry-level personnel and part-time summer help. SPI filled the bill, with an easy-to-use, yet very complete software package. The learning curve for new hires to master SPI’s single-screen front desk modules is minutes instead of days.
> 
> Owners and guests, today, expect front desk clerks or receptionists to have ample and readily accessible information at hand to answer their questions. Your staff needs to have complete data available with the click of a mouse – everything from Grandma needing ADA-approved accessibility to whether or not an owner has an unpaid, outstanding balance, such as a portion or all of their annual maintenance fee.
> 
> Resort financial management
> One of the most vital functions of a software system is to manage resort finances. Using the right technology to handle entire back-office needs, from annual assessment fee billing, statements, collections, payment processing and reporting; to handling accounts-payable and -receivable or managing a portfolio of mortgage receivables can save substantially, due to less labor cost and reduction in errors.
> 
> NEVM’s resorts are sold-out properties, managed under the auspices of homeowner associations (HOAs). HOA boards are closely regulated by state and federal law and are required to be able to demonstrate that they have honored their fiduciary responsibility while overseeing the resort. New England Vacation Management takes this obligation very seriously, both from the desire to remain in compliance with the law, as well as ethically.
> 
> Hagberg recognized that a software system handling the HOA’s budget, as well as day-to-day operations, must be unquestionably accurate. With limited staff and resources, Hagberg found SPI to be a user-friendly system that could effortlessly handle the front desk, as well as the back-of-house, operations, including handling the annual maintenance fee billing operations. Another aspect of SPI’s financial management system he appreciated was the capability to handle monthly mortgages for the HOA’s resold inventory.
> 
> Correspondence & Owner Services
> NEVMs responsibilities as a resort manager include communicating with several thousand owners. Software that could keep track of each individual, timeshare owner and their ownership rights was essential. The system would need to be able to communicate with them by email, as well as by more conventional snail-mail, to send reservation confirmations, annual maintenance fee bills and reminder notices and other types of communications, such as newsletters or notices of resale weeks.
> 
> Because SPI had introduced a new, enterprise software suite based on a Microsoft .NET/SQL Server platform several years earlier (recently branded as SPI Orange Systems), Hagberg found these needs to be amply met. As a management company, NEVM needed SPI’s timeshare reservations, maintenance dues billing, owner communications and other property management functionality. SPI was able to supply New England Vacation Management with just the applications they needed, at an affordable price with a quick implementation.
> 
> SPI has been in the timeshare business for thirty years and enjoys a well-earned reputation for excellence. This gave Hagberg a comfort level that his vendor would ‘be there for the long-haul.’ In addition, NEVM did not have time, or the personnel, to do a lot of advance preparation for a conversion. Therefore, it was very good news for him that the implementation stage was smooth, quick and inexpensive.


----------



## ecwinch

Why is the fact it is a "sold-out" resort interesting? I think that just means that the only weeks are resale weeks (i.e. they have been previously disposed of). Just like a concert can be sold-out, but have tickets available via third-parties.

Also, why do you say the board is illegally appointed?  Every BOD member should have either been voted in during the election process, or appointed to the BOD to fill a vacancy.


----------



## Fig

*Use of Southcape's membership list by Outfield legal?*

As pointed out here, it's looking more and more like Outfield Marketing had unlimited access to Southcape's membership base for the purpose of marketing Festiva's points program. Outfield, as has been pointed out, stands to profit substantially from these contacts. The idea of using a non-profits membership list without the consent of members for for-profit purposes is one issue, but there are also privacy issues of the members to consider. According to some people who have posted here, Outfield's calls have been unrelenting with some people have been contacted five times, even though they did not want to set up in-house meetings. Here is some info I came across when researching the use of non-profit mailing lists. It is from a webpage from a privicy rights organization:
...................................
Background on Fair Information Practices

In 1973 the U.S. Dept of Health, Education and Welfare studied the impact of automation on medical records privacy. The people involved in the study were concerned that a knee-jerk reaction to the fears of computerization would close off the beneficial aspects of their use.

So they developed what they called the code of fair information practices. They wanted to create an environment where reasonable uses of data would be allowed.

Here, in a nutshell is that code. It has been expanded upon and adapted for different uses since the early 1970s, but all variations have the same basic tenets: notice, access, disclosure of secondary uses, error correction, and security of data.

1. No secrets. There must be no personal recordkeeping systems whose very existence is secret.

2. There must be a way for an individual to find out what information about him is in a record and how it is used.

3. There must be a way for an individual to prevent information about him that was obtained for one purpose from being used or made available for other purposes without his/her consent.

Hmmm...number 3. Did members of Southcape, a non-profit, know that by virtue of being a Southcape member they would be repeatedly solicted by Outfield, a for profit company, that stood to gain thousands on each meeting with each member?


----------



## Russ45

ecwinch said:


> Why is the fact it is a "sold-out" resort interesting? I think that just means that the only weeks are resale weeks (i.e. they have been previously disposed of). Just like a concert can be sold-out, but have tickets available via third-parties.
> 
> Also, why do you say the board is illegally appointed?  Every BOD member should have either been voted in during the election process, or appointed to the BOD to fill a vacancy.


Depends on how they came on the Board.  If a vacancy arises then the existing Board members appoint a Board member who fills out the rest of the unexpired term.  If all positions on the Board are vacant then the unit owners elect a Board with a special Association meeting.  These are all new Board members who were not elected from the last year, if I am not mistaken, but it depends on how they assumed their position.  If an elected Board member appointed them Board members, then resigned with the sale of the resort, then they are legally appointed.  If the elected board members resigned with the sale of the resort without appointing the current Members, and they just assumed the position, then they are not legally appointed.


----------



## Sou13

*Reply to ecwinch*



Russ45 said:


> Depends on how they came on the Board.  If a vacancy arises then the existing Board members appoint a Board member who fills out the rest of the unexpired term.  If all positions on the Board are vacant then the unit owners elect a Board with a special Association meeting.  These are all new Board members who were not elected from the last year, if I am not mistaken, but it depends on how they assumed their position.  If an elected Board member appointed them Board members, then resigned with the sale of the resort, then they are legally appointed.  If the elected board members resigned with the sale of the resort without appointing the current Members, and they just assumed the position, then they are not legally appointed.



The part about an elected board appointing them, then resigning, might make it look legal, but there was never an election!  Look at the minutes from the 2008 meeting.  Not only was there no election, the agenda was not followed and there was no notification that there was to be an election!



> Originally Posted by *ecwinch*
> Why is the fact it is a "sold-out" resort interesting? I think that just means that the only weeks are resale weeks (i.e. they have been previously disposed of). Just like a concert can be sold-out, but have tickets available via third-parties.
> 
> Also, why do you say the board is illegally appointed? Every BOD member should have either been voted in during the election process, or appointed to the BOD to fill a vacancy.



Southcape Resort has never been "sold out" and the number of deeded owners being billed for maintenance fees is either 1600+ or 1800+ out of 51x55 total intervals.  Those weeks offered on the IVS site are resale, not developer owned.  If all the weeks were "sold out", the need for a "Special Assessment" would not exist.


----------



## Fig

*Possible scenerio at Southcape?*

Here’s a “possible” scenario  may be happening at Southcape after doing a little poking around. Feel free to comment, clarify, etc  as these discussions seem to be leading to a greater understanding for all involved.

It’s going to be hard to sell new time shares in this economy. The free TV for a tour days are on serious hold. As pointed out here, the restaurants on the Cape aren’t even getting paid for their free lunches promised by tour operator.  How do you make money in the timeshare business? What if you could get people who own their timeshares to pay you to keep their time share experience going? How to do this? Let’s invent a club and give them points rather than a fixed deeded week! If we could get people to a few clubs to agree we can open a big club where people could go to more than one resort. But we need to get rid of those pesky deeds, those legal agreements that entitle them to vacation at a specific time and the real estate industry takes so seriously. Hmmm, can we buy them? Nah, too expensive. What about charging them to have us take them from them and put them in a “trust?” and then we could claim that they could vacation at any property in our club. Of course, they would not be guaranteed any week at any particular property anymore on points, but we like that because we now are not limited to weeks by members but can kinda float the whole thing on a first come, first serve basis and possibly even sell more points than available weeks kind of on the overbooking airline theme figuring that some people will be no shows. 

Great idea! Now what about those pesky deeds? We need a salesforce to convince these deed holders to sign these deeds over. Let’s hire a marketing firm. Hey, Tom Franks is the CEO of a firm and he knows the industry inside out having been past president of  American Resort Development Association 
which practically built the timeshare industry from scratch.  Love the name of his company, Outfield marketing,---wasn’t there an outfielder who played for Pittsburg in the 50s named Frank Thomas? Cute. He had some great ideas about tours, but tours aren’t where its at these days, so maybe he can use his salesforce to convince the deed holders to go with our club. Hmm…have to be real careful what we tell these folks, we already had one run in with the AG in MO and that was not fun. So, we’ll keep the meetings in folks homes…we’ll tell them they are private.  Expensive visiting all these people’s homes, but hey, if Outfield Marketing can rake in $3,100  on a “conversion” there is a lot of incentive in it for them to convince people to give up their deed.

Okay, once we get these deeds what to do with them? We got to transfer the title.  Uggh, We Collect Timeshares, that postcard company is in deep doo-doo because they offered to take peoples deeds off of their hands for a similar fee and nobody actually transferred the deeds. Hey, Cliff Hagberg has a big real estate company that does time share resales, let’s ask him. He also headed up the ARDA Resale Task Force, so he is probably buddies with Tom. 

We need a trust to put these deeds in once they are transferred. Let’s have Cliff and Tom and maybe Steve that sales guy from Outfield form some sort of a limited partnership or trust or something. They can send out communications from the “Trustees” and people might think they are board members…will give them more clout. Well how you going to pay Cliff? Outfield gets its cut…I mean this is a non-profit, you can’t bilk the owners. What if Cliff sells some of the timeshares that he has had the deeds signed over for as floats? They aren’t deeded weeks anymore. Can he do that? I mean if he sells a float week for $2000 grand after someone signs a deed over to the trust aren’t we milking a deed for $3000 from the owner and $2000 from the new owner on a non-profit where the current owner is paying a few hundred a year? Maybe yes, maybe no. All I know is Cliff has a lot of floats for Southcape on his website now and he is a trustee. On the for sale by owner, almost all the owners were deeded…so, do these floats exist or are they being created by the conversion and then resold? Okay, so this is just a wild take, any thoughts?


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> The part about an elected board appointing them, then resigning, might make it look legal, but there was never an election!
> 
> Southcape Resort has never been "sold out" and the number of deeded owners being billed for maintenance fees is either 1600+ or 1800+ out of 51x55 total intervals.  Those weeks offered on the IVS site are resale, not developer owned.  If all the weeks were "sold out", the need for a "Special Assessment" would not exist.



If Southcape Resort was never "sold out", and NEVS has acquired the rights of the developer, then the developer rights under Article V, Section 1 of the by-laws are still in effect, and the Developer controls the resort. And they would retain those rights until all 163 units authorized in the by-laws are constructed OR they relinquish those rights.

And if that is true, according to Article V, Section 2.a, the Developer has the right to control 67% of the voting power of the Board of Directors. And they retain at least 51% of the voting power until they lose their developer rights.

And according to Article VI, Section 6, vacancies are filled by the majority vote of the Directors. So no election by the owners is required, even if the developer was not in control.


----------



## tombo

I would be surprised if you were wrong on a single one of your theories.




Fig said:


> Here’s a “possible” scenario  may be happening at Southcape after doing a little poking around. Feel free to comment, clarify, etc  as these discussions seem to be leading to a greater understanding for all involved.
> 
> It’s going to be hard to sell new time shares in this economy. The free TV for a tour days are on serious hold. As pointed out here, the restaurants on the Cape aren’t even getting paid for their free lunches promised by tour operator.  How do you make money in the timeshare business? What if you could get people who own their timeshares to pay you to keep their time share experience going? How to do this? Let’s invent a club and give them points rather than a fixed deeded week! If we could get people to a few clubs to agree we can open a big club where people could go to more than one resort. But we need to get rid of those pesky deeds, those legal agreements that entitle them to vacation at a specific time and the real estate industry takes so seriously. Hmmm, can we buy them? Nah, too expensive. What about charging them to have us take them from them and put them in a “trust?” and then we could claim that they could vacation at any property in our club. Of course, they would not be guaranteed any week at any particular property anymore on points, but we like that because we now are not limited to weeks by members but can kinda float the whole thing on a first come, first serve basis and possibly even sell more points than available weeks kind of on the overbooking airline theme figuring that some people will be no shows.
> 
> Great idea! Now what about those pesky deeds? We need a salesforce to convince these deed holders to sign these deeds over. Let’s hire a marketing firm. Hey, Tom Franks is the CEO of a firm and he knows the industry inside out having been past president of  American Resort Development Association
> which practically built the timeshare industry from scratch.  Love the name of his company, Outfield marketing,---wasn’t there an outfielder who played for Pittsburg in the 50s named Frank Thomas? Cute. He had some great ideas about tours, but tours aren’t where its at these days, so maybe he can use his salesforce to convince the deed holders to go with our club. Hmm…have to be real careful what we tell these folks, we already had one run in with the AG in MO and that was not fun. So, we’ll keep the meetings in folks homes…we’ll tell them they are private.  Expensive visiting all these people’s homes, but hey, if Outfield Marketing can rake in $3,100  on a “conversion” there is a lot of incentive in it for them to convince people to give up their deed.
> 
> Okay, once we get these deeds what to do with them? We got to transfer the title.  Uggh, We Collect Timeshares, that postcard company is in deep doo-doo because they offered to take peoples deeds off of their hands for a similar fee and nobody actually transferred the deeds. Hey, Cliff Hagberg has a big real estate company that does time share resales, let’s ask him. He also headed up the ARDA Resale Task Force, so he is probably buddies with Tom.
> 
> We need a trust to put these deeds in once they are transferred. Let’s have Cliff and Tom and maybe Steve that sales guy from Outfield form some sort of a limited partnership or trust or something. They can send out communications from the “Trustees” and people might think they are board members…will give them more clout. Well how you going to pay Cliff? Outfield gets its cut…I mean this is a non-profit, you can’t bilk the owners. What if Cliff sells some of the timeshares that he has had the deeds signed over for as floats? They aren’t deeded weeks anymore. Can he do that? I mean if he sells a float week for $2000 grand after someone signs a deed over to the trust aren’t we milking a deed for $3000 from the owner and $2000 from the new owner on a non-profit where the current owner is paying a few hundred a year? Maybe yes, maybe no. All I know is Cliff has a lot of floats for Southcape on his website now and he is a trustee. On the for sale by owner, almost all the owners were deeded…so, do these floats exist or are they being created by the conversion and then resold? Okay, so this is just a wild take, any thoughts?


----------



## Carolinian

But the blue smoke and mirrors of points clubs are nothing but a big scam.  Owners lose control of their resort.  It is fitting that the multi-developer timeshare points concept was originated by a former loan shark in South Africa, where points clubs have been a never-ending scam for depriving timeshare owners of their property.  The whole sordid SA story was posted on the South Africa board at Crimeshare.

More likely, a bunch of these people sat around and said these timeshare owners have bought the spiel of a timeshare salesman once, how can we con them again to buy what they already own?

Points operations are nothing but parasitic con games.




Fig said:


> Here’s a “possible” scenario  may be happening at Southcape after doing a little poking around. Feel free to comment, clarify, etc  as these discussions seem to be leading to a greater understanding for all involved.
> 
> It’s going to be hard to sell new time shares in this economy. The free TV for a tour days are on serious hold. As pointed out here, the restaurants on the Cape aren’t even getting paid for their free lunches promised by tour operator.  How do you make money in the timeshare business? What if you could get people who own their timeshares to pay you to keep their time share experience going? How to do this? Let’s invent a club and give them points rather than a fixed deeded week! If we could get people to a few clubs to agree we can open a big club where people could go to more than one resort. But we need to get rid of those pesky deeds, those legal agreements that entitle them to vacation at a specific time and the real estate industry takes so seriously. Hmmm, can we buy them? Nah, too expensive. What about charging them to have us take them from them and put them in a “trust?” and then we could claim that they could vacation at any property in our club. Of course, they would not be guaranteed any week at any particular property anymore on points, but we like that because we now are not limited to weeks by members but can kinda float the whole thing on a first come, first serve basis and possibly even sell more points than available weeks kind of on the overbooking airline theme figuring that some people will be no shows.
> 
> Great idea! Now what about those pesky deeds? We need a salesforce to convince these deed holders to sign these deeds over. Let’s hire a marketing firm. Hey, Tom Franks is the CEO of a firm and he knows the industry inside out having been past president of  American Resort Development Association
> which practically built the timeshare industry from scratch.  Love the name of his company, Outfield marketing,---wasn’t there an outfielder who played for Pittsburg in the 50s named Frank Thomas? Cute. He had some great ideas about tours, but tours aren’t where its at these days, so maybe he can use his salesforce to convince the deed holders to go with our club. Hmm…have to be real careful what we tell these folks, we already had one run in with the AG in MO and that was not fun. So, we’ll keep the meetings in folks homes…we’ll tell them they are private.  Expensive visiting all these people’s homes, but hey, if Outfield Marketing can rake in $3,100  on a “conversion” there is a lot of incentive in it for them to convince people to give up their deed.
> 
> Okay, once we get these deeds what to do with them? We got to transfer the title.  Uggh, We Collect Timeshares, that postcard company is in deep doo-doo because they offered to take peoples deeds off of their hands for a similar fee and nobody actually transferred the deeds. Hey, Cliff Hagberg has a big real estate company that does time share resales, let’s ask him. He also headed up the ARDA Resale Task Force, so he is probably buddies with Tom.
> 
> We need a trust to put these deeds in once they are transferred. Let’s have Cliff and Tom and maybe Steve that sales guy from Outfield form some sort of a limited partnership or trust or something. They can send out communications from the “Trustees” and people might think they are board members…will give them more clout. Well how you going to pay Cliff? Outfield gets its cut…I mean this is a non-profit, you can’t bilk the owners. What if Cliff sells some of the timeshares that he has had the deeds signed over for as floats? They aren’t deeded weeks anymore. Can he do that? I mean if he sells a float week for $2000 grand after someone signs a deed over to the trust aren’t we milking a deed for $3000 from the owner and $2000 from the new owner on a non-profit where the current owner is paying a few hundred a year? Maybe yes, maybe no. All I know is Cliff has a lot of floats for Southcape on his website now and he is a trustee. On the for sale by owner, almost all the owners were deeded…so, do these floats exist or are they being created by the conversion and then resold? Okay, so this is just a wild take, any thoughts?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

My name is Cliff Hagberg and I am a trustee at Southcape Resort.  I  
am concerned about a number of untruths and misrepresentations that  
have appeared on this board and i am perfectly willing to address  
issues of concern for any owner at Southcape Resort.  Please  
understand that I cannot discuss legal issues nor will I respond to  
any personal attacks.  Having set those ground rules, I would  
very much appreciate an opportunity to try and answer those questions  
that any owner at Southcape might have.  I look forward to a fruitful  
dialog


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> My name is Cliff Hagberg and I am a trustee at Southcape Resort.  I
> am concerned about a number of untruths and misrepresentations that
> have appeared on this board and i am perfectly willing to address
> issues of concern for any owner at Southcape Resort.  Please
> understand that I cannot discuss legal issues nor will I respond to
> any personal attacks.  Having set those ground rules, I would
> very much appreciate an opportunity to try and answer those questions
> that any owner at Southcape might have.  I look forward to a fruitful
> dialog



Welcome. You will be answering questions for a while from many here. My first question is why I am having my personal information (phone number, information on week(s) I own at a Festiva resort) given to salesmen to call my home and try to sell me Festiva points when I have not authorized the resort to give out any of my personal information and I am on the do not call list? The only reason the resort has any of my personal information is because I own there, not to distribute to your sales force (internal or 3rd party) as a sales lead.


----------



## ClamsCasino

Massman - are you kidding me?   The Assessments at Southcape have climbed from $425 in 2002 up to $595 in 2008 - that's a pretty large increase.   Do we even know where the most recent $50 assessment that was imposed on every owner in January 2009 went?  We pay that assessment then get slammed with another $400 a few weeks later! 



massman631 said:


> I've read all of the posts and seen a lot of speculation, rumor and innuendo and I'm trying to understand what's going on.  Does the resort not need to fix the roofs, replace and siding and upgrade the septic systems?  Seems reasonable to me but maybe I don't really understand.
> 
> Why the assumption that these new guys are bad guys?  Sounds like they're trying to fix things that should have been fixed a long time ago.  I want my resort to be in good shape and my maintenance fee hasn't gone up at all in the past few years.  Wish I could say the same for my expenses at home.
> 
> I don't know, I'm just not ready to make the assumption that Hagberg, et al are all bad guys.  Maybe we should hear what they have to say?


----------



## Sou13

*NEVS has no developer rights*



ecwinch said:


> If Southcape Resort was never "sold out", and NEVS has acquired the rights of the developer, then the developer rights under Article V, Section 1 of the by-laws are still in effect, and the Developer controls the resort. And they would retain those rights until all 163 units authorized in the by-laws are constructed OR they relinquish those rights.
> 
> And if that is true, according to Article V, Section 2.a, the Developer has the right to control 67% of the voting power of the Board of Directors. And they retain at least 51% of the voting power until they lose their developer rights.
> 
> And according to Article VI, Section 6, vacancies are filled by the majority vote of the Directors. So no election by the owners is required, even if the developer was not in control.



NEVS bought the rights to manage but not to develop Southcape Resort.  The developer rights ceased when the Town of Mashpee seized the remaining lots which were supposed to be developed as "Southcape III" and the development never went beyond 55 units.  Southcape I may have been "sold out" but Southcape II never was and the previous "owners" or whatever they were supposed to be were even offering weeks on eBay.

Presently 100% of the voting rights on the Board of Trustees are in the control of NEVS and Outfield Marketing.  The 1600+ deeded owners have the right to at least one seat on the board and to expand the Board of Directors to as many as nine.

We Southcape owners have been blissfully unaware of our rights and responsibilities as owners.  I take full responsibility for my own failure to get to at least one annual meeting in the nearly quarter century that I've been making my "escape to the Cape" for mini-vacations.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> My name is Cliff Hagberg and I am a trustee at Southcape Resort.  I
> am concerned about a number of untruths and misrepresentations that
> have appeared on this board and i am perfectly willing to address
> issues of concern for any owner at Southcape Resort.  Please
> understand that I cannot discuss legal issues nor will I respond to
> any personal attacks.  Having set those ground rules, I would
> very much appreciate an opportunity to try and answer those questions
> that any owner at Southcape might have.  I look forward to a fruitful
> dialog



Cliff - thanks for showing up, and showing a willingness to address the issues raised.

Can you describe how the current Board members came to hold the seats they currently hold? 

Does New England Vacation Services LLC (NEVS), or any other party retain the "Special Developer Right" as described in Mass TimeShare Act (Chapter 183b, Section 22)?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi Eric and all

First of all, thank you for the welcome.  I was initially a little concerned about torches and pitchforks!  While I will try to answer all questions, I do want to keep things somewhat confined to communicating with only Southcape owners and I notice that neither you nor tombo list yourselves as actually being owners.  I would appreciate it if you would confirm this for me and I will take you at your word.

Tombo, Outfield is an authorized agent of Southcape Resort and there is a Confidentiality Agreement to protect private information.  Outfield is to assist in informing owners about the changes at Southcape and to offer the opportunity to become a member of Festiva's Adventure Club. 

Eric, I can't discuss the process by which the current trustees assumed their duties as it calls for legal opinions but I can tell you that the process was conducted under the supervision of several different law firms.

Again, your second question also calls for a legal opinion but there is recorded an assignment of developer rights to NEVS that is a matter of public record.

Please understand that I'm not trying to avoid direct answers but I'm not an attorney and I'm not qualified to offer legal opinions.  Please also understand that I don't have the opportunity to monitor this site every day so it may take me a day or two before I can respond.

Thanks

Cliff


----------



## Sou13

*A deterrent?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Eric and all
> 
> First of all, thank you for the welcome.  I was initially a little concerned about torches and pitchforks!  While I will try to answer all questions, I do want to keep things somewhat confined to communicating with only Southcape owners and I notice that neither you nor tombo list yourselves as actually being owners.  I would appreciate it if you would confirm this for me and I will take you at your word.
> 
> Tombo, Outfield is an authorized agent of Southcape Resort and there is a Confidentiality Agreement to protect private information.  Outfield is to assist in informing owners about the changes at Southcape and to offer the opportunity to become a member of Festiva's Adventure Club.
> 
> Eric, I can't discuss the process by which the current trustees assumed their duties as it calls for legal opinions but I can tell you that the process was conducted under the supervision of several different law firms.
> 
> Again, your second question also calls for a legal opinion but there is recorded an assignment of developer rights to NEVS that is a matter of public record.
> 
> Please understand that I'm not trying to avoid direct answers but I'm not an attorney and I'm not qualified to offer legal opinions.  Please also understand that I don't have the opportunity to monitor this site every day so it may take me a day or two before I can respond.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Cliff



I hope your presence isn't a deterrent to open discussion here, since the object is to get Southcape owners to identify themselves and come to the annual meeting.

We want the truth, and if any "untruths" have been posted it's been the result of misunderstanding.  We're not attorneys and don't understand a lot of legal language, and a lot of what's spelled out in the Master Deed.  

Where can we find the public record of the assignment of developer rights?  And what are those rights?  Is it "untrue" that the Town of Mashpee has taken over a parcel of land valued at $2.5 *million* and that no further development is possible?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

I have no problem not being a part of this discussion.  But I have read all of your posts and think the owners are entitled to the truth and not speculation.  If you don't agree, I'll happily withdraw.

The assignment is at the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds.  I'm not qualified to speak as to what those rights are.  The town of Mashpee has taken more than that as a result of unpaid taxes, all of which occurred prior to my involvement with the resort.  I'm still negotiating with the town to permit owners and guests access to the parking area across from the tennis courts. 

I can't speak to further development possibilities.


----------



## w.bob

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Eric and all
> 
> First of all, thank you for the welcome.  I was initially a little concerned about torches and pitchforks!  While I will try to answer all questions, I do want to keep things somewhat confined to communicating with only Southcape owners and I notice that neither you nor tombo list yourselves as actually being owners.  I would appreciate it if you would confirm this for me and I will take you at your word.
> 
> Tombo, Outfield is an authorized agent of Southcape Resort and there is a Confidentiality Agreement to protect private information.  Outfield is to assist in informing owners about the changes at Southcape and to offer the opportunity to become a member of Festiva's Adventure Club.
> 
> Eric, I can't discuss the process by which the current trustees assumed their duties as it calls for legal opinions but I can tell you that the process was conducted under the supervision of several different law firms.
> 
> Again, your second question also calls for a legal opinion but there is recorded an assignment of developer rights to NEVS that is a matter of public record.
> 
> Please understand that I'm not trying to avoid direct answers but I'm not an attorney and I'm not qualified to offer legal opinions.  Please also understand that I don't have the opportunity to monitor this site every day so it may take me a day or two before I can respond.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Cliff



Welcome Cliff,

I am an owner at Southcape and I am concerned about 1. the first assessment of $50.00 2. the additional assessment of $400.00.

I realize that the resort may not have been managed properly in the past resulting in numerous maintenance projects needed to keep it up to par. I have no problem with an reasonable assessment to accomplish this. 

Can you tell me how many units are privately owned and will be paying the $450.00 assessments as compared to the units not privately owned. I "assume" any units that are not privately owned are actually unsold units & owned by you. Is this true? If you do not own the unsold units who does?  How many of these unsold units are there? & Is the owner of these unsold units responsible for the $450.00 assessment on each of the units?

In a perfect world Once improvements are made each unit will increase in value resulting in a higher sale price. I do not mind paying my fair share for improvements, I just think that the interval unit owners should not have to shoulder the all of the cost of improvements. If the owner of the unsold units will benefit from the improvements resulting in a higher value per unsold unit then they should be paying there fair share too. 

 I tried to ask questions that will not require legal opinion, just math. Looking forward to hearing from you.
Thanks


----------



## NEVMSLLC

One other thing I should point out, Sou13, is that I disagree with your interpretation of the object of this discussion group.  I believe that the purpose of this group is to discuss issues facing Southcape Resort and not to get Southcape owners to identify themselves.  Besides, I already know a number of owners here, including you.  In fact, I'm helping you in your goal.  We are in the process of sending a notice of the meeting to all Southcape owners with an invitation to attend.  Personally, I hope there's a large turn out as we have much to discuss. There really is nothing to hide.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi w.bob

I agree your question is fair and I think I can answer most of it without getting lawyers after me!  The first $50 was a direct contribution to establish a reserve account for the resort.  Southcape has never had a reserve account.  When repairs were needed, there was no money to pay for them and the repairs kept getting worse and worse and more and more expensive.  

The assessment is against all the owners including delinquent owners.  NEVS is not required to pay the special assessment or maintenance fees.  Instead, what NEVS has done, even though it doesn't have to, is to assign rental rights of all NEVS inventory to the association.  The association will keep that rental money and it will be substantial.  NEVS has voluntarily given up this income for the benefit of everyone.

NEVS owns about 500 weeks and is in the process of selling those weeks.  As those weeks are sold, they will generate maintenance fee income to the association and that is what should have been done over the last 20 years.

In my experience (and I have a lot of it), the repairs to the resort should have the effect of increasing the value of everyone's week.  This has been my experience at dozens of resorts that I have worked with and consulted for.  Besides, when the roofs are leaking, the siding is rotting and falling off and the septic tanks are failing, we have no choice but to fix them.  The special assessment was the result of a competitive bidding process once the necessary repairs and renovations were identified and itemized, a process that took months.  To wait and allow the situation to continue to deteriorate would only have resulted in a greater expense so the time to fix it is now.  By the way, the work is ongoing and it looks great!  We have lots of pictures and will be presenting them at the annual meeting.  I know you'll be pleased when you visit.

Again, I must stress that nothing happens without being fully vetted by the attorneys involved.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> While I will try to answer all questions, I do want to keep things somewhat confined to communicating with only Southcape owners and I notice that neither you nor tombo list yourselves as actually being owners.  I would appreciate it if you would confirm this for me and I will take you at your word.
> 
> Eric, I can't discuss the process by which the current trustees assumed their duties as it calls for legal opinions but I can tell you that the process was conducted under the supervision of several different law firms.



Cliff,

Thanks for quick response. I am a prospective owner at SC, and of course I want to ensure that my rights as an owner are protected before I make a purchase decision.

While I understand that you cannot offer a legal opinion of the process, I hope you can describe to us how the current trustees came to their positions. Were they appointed to fill vacancies in the board, or were they elected?

I think this would be information available to any owner or prospective owner that would be joining the HOA.

Thanks


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Eric

The current trustees were appointed.

Cliff


----------



## somerville

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Eric and all...
> Eric, I can't discuss the process by which the current trustees assumed their duties as it calls for legal opinions but I can tell you that the process was conducted under the supervision of several different law firms....Cliff


At least now you know they were appointed.  I would like to know how the mechanics of becoming a trustee involves you issuing a legal opinion.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> The assessment is against all the owners including delinquent owners.  NEVS is not required to pay the special assessment or maintenance fees.  Instead, what NEVS has done, even though it doesn't have to, is to assign rental rights of all NEVS inventory to the association.  The association will keep that rental money and it will be substantial.  NEVS has voluntarily given up this income for the benefit of everyone.
> 
> Again, I must stress that nothing happens without being fully vetted by the attorneys involved.



That NEVS is not required to pay for the inventory they control is a little disconcerting. I think you can understand why.

So if the NEVS units are not committed to the Interval Ownership, will funds from the special assessment be used to refurbish units that are in the NEVS inventory?

When you say "the attorneys involved" - do you mean attorneys employed by the HOA?

Also, was material consideration given to NEVS in exchange for the assignment of the rental rights to the HOA?


----------



## wmauryd

*occupancy permits,  septic repair, welcome to Southcape forum*

Cliff,

Thank you for taking time to address this forum. Welcome!

When you and I spoke weeks ago, you related that City of Mashpee wanted to pull Southcape's occupancy permits due to septic tank disrepair, and that you reached an agreement with the city for Southcape to remain open, on condition that septic tank repair would begin early April. How's our relations with town hall now, and what's the status of SC occupancy and septic tank repair at this time? Is the assessment providing sufficient means to make the repairs on schedule?

David M




NEVMSLLC said:


> My name is Cliff Hagberg and I am a trustee at Southcape Resort.  I
> am concerned about a number of untruths and misrepresentations that
> have appeared on this board and i am perfectly willing to address
> issues of concern for any owner at Southcape Resort.  Please
> understand that I cannot discuss legal issues nor will I respond to
> any personal attacks.  Having set those ground rules, I would
> very much appreciate an opportunity to try and answer those questions
> that any owner at Southcape might have.  I look forward to a fruitful
> dialog


----------



## Sou13

*We're all in this together!*



NEVMSLLC said:


> One other thing I should point out, Sou13, is that I disagree with your interpretation of the object of this discussion group.  I believe that the purpose of this group is to discuss issues facing Southcape Resort and not to get Southcape owners to identify themselves.  Besides, I already know a number of owners here, including you.  In fact, I'm helping you in your goal.  We are in the process of sending a notice of the meeting to all Southcape owners with an invitation to attend.  Personally, I hope there's a large turn out as we have much to discuss. There really is nothing to hide.



And I've been helping you do yours!  The only thing I may need to "hide" is the identities of Soutcape owners who have emailed me privately.  I was taken to task by one owner who had a problem with one of my posts.

I, too, want to end speculation and want transparency.  We're in an age of that!

Some of my posts are an embarrassment to me, especially the earlier ones when I was learning my way around TUG.  If you want to clarify which posts are "untrue" I welcome the truth.  If you're here to clarify misunderstandings, you are *more than *welcome!  The only reason for trying to get Southcape owners to "identify themselves" is that you have already pointed out that some of the posts in this discussion were not by Southcape owners.

Sometimes I post thoughts that can be misunderstood.  My intent here is to embolden and inspire Southcape owners to post here without fear of reprisal.  I expect to be meeting you soon and want our meeting to be pleasant and worth making the extra trip to Southcape.


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> The only reason for trying to get Southcape owners to "identify themselves" is that you have already pointed out that some of the posts in this discussion were not by Southcape owners.



Most of the concerns raised here came about because of discussions of actions Festiva has taken at other resorts in the past (raising MF's, assessments,gaining control of the vote, placing employees on the HOA etc). Some of these alleged actions have caused Festiva to be sued at two different resorts (Festiva settled the one with the MO AG, the one that owners at The Atrium filed is ongoing as far as I know). We were able to address enough issues at the BRV annual meeting (thanks to information from owners at other Festiva resorts )to get a Festiva CEO red in the face and telling us to deed our weeks back to them and leave if we didn't like it. To limit the discussion on this thread to only Southscape members would have excluded the knowledge of things Festiva has done at other resorts like Church Street Inn, The Atrium, and others. Without that information Southscape owners would not currently be able to proactivelly address exisiting and future problems that can come with Festiva involvement (IMO). Once the Southscape owners lose control of their vote and their HOA, the best you can hope for is rescue by some legal entity hired or contacted by an owners group. An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure!

Just remember the old adages that "A leopard rarely changes their spots" and " The best predictor of one's future actions is one's past actions". I am not an owner at Southscape and will bow out of this discussion, but beware of promises and assurances that aren't in writing.


----------



## Sou13

*No, no, we want you here!*



tombo said:


> Most of the concerns raised here came about because of discussions of actions Festiva has taken at other resorts in the past (raising MF's, assessments,gaining control of the vote, placing employees on the HOA etc). Some of these alleged actions have caused Festiva to be sued at two different resorts (Festiva settled the one with the MO AG, the one that owners at The Atrium filed is ongoing as far as I know). We were able to address enough issues at the BRV annual meeting (thanks to information from owners at other Festiva resorts )to get a Festiva CEO red in the face and telling us to deed our weeks back to them and leave if we didn't like it. To limit the discussion on this thread to only Southscape members would have excluded the knowledge of things Festiva has done at other resorts like Church Street Inn, The Atrium, and others. Without that information Southscape owners would not currently be able to proactivelly address exisiting and future problems that can come with Festiva involvement (IMO). Once the Southscape owners lose control of their vote and their HOA, the best you can hope for is rescue by some legal entity hired or contacted by an owners group. An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure!
> 
> Just remember the old adages that "A leopard rarely changes their spots" and " The best predictor of one's future actions is one's past actions". I am not an owner at Southscape and will bow out of this discussion, but beware of promises and assurances that aren't in writing.



Again I've been misunderstood.  I welcome all info from TUG members, especially those who have had experience with Festiva, to post here!  This discussion is about Southcape Resort and what's been going on there since the sale of the "developer rights" to NEVS.  

Let me just give you an example from my own experience.  In October 2008 the mail contained what looked like a maintenance fee bill for 2009.  I put it aside because I wasn't expecting it in October and didn't want to spoil Thanksgiving.  But then I got that mysterious telephone call while I was watching my favorite prime-time TV show (I don't subscribe to DVR) and I was sent into a tailspin.  What's going on at Southcape?  What do you mean by "changes"?  How could my resort have been sold?

I declined to allow a representative come to my home because I had reserved the 4-day split for Thanksgiving, and told the telemarketer that I would be going to Southcape and there was no need for anyone to come to my house.  The telemarketer responded that I was "ahead of the game" and I got back to my TV show but now I was *very upset!*

I didn't document the date and time of the call but if it was my favorite prime time TV show it had to be after 9 p.m.

Now it was time for me to fish out that MF bill and open it.  That's when I learned that I was supposed to be expecting a telephone call from a representative of Outfield Marketing.

About two weeks later I received another call, again while I was watching one of my favorite prime time TV shows.  Again I gave my reason for declining to make an appointment for an in-home visit in December, and that was the last time I answered a call from Outfield Marketing in 2008.

But in the meantime I was *very concerned* that my reservation for the 4-day split might be worthless, and called Southcape to confirm that I could stay there in the unit I had reserved at the time I had reserved.

A friend looked up "Southcape Resort" and found the TUG discussion which was started by someone looking for info about the resort, which I read, but I was unfamiliar with TUG then, and it wasn't until I read tombo's "Festiva has taken over my resort" discussion that I realized how bad it could get for Southcape owners.  That's when I became a "guest" forum contributer and revived the "Southcape Resort" discussion.

There must be Southcape owners who are TUG members but haven't posted here, and there might be Southcape owners who are reading this discussion but haven't joined TUG.  These are the owners we are trying to reach.  We are marketing *info* here and no salesperson will call!


----------



## NEVMSLLC

OK, a lot to try and cover here.  First, I'll try to answer somerville and then eric.  The process by where trustees are appointed and elected is a legal process that involves the interpretation of legal documents.  I'm not qualified to do that.  The process was conducted in accordance with the legal advice of several law firms.

I agree that NEVS not paying maintenance fees should be disconcerting.  My question is why is it disconcerting to you now when that's the way it's been for thirty years?  NEVS is the first "developer" in over twenty years that is actually going to try and sell it's inventory.  Why isn't that a tremendous benefit to all of the owners and the entire resort?  Isn't NEVS recognizing the situation by assigning it's rental rights to the association for all of the inventory it owns?  Name me one other developer in the entire country that has done that for an association.  I know most everyone in the industry and this is the first time I've ever heard of it.  Personally, I think NEVS should be congratulated for keeping the best interests of the resort as a whole in the forefront of their thinking.

The funds will be used to make necessary repairs regardless of who owns in a particular unit.  In fact, most of the funds will be used to repair units where NEVS owns little or no inventory.

With respect to attorneys, yes, the HOA, NEVS and the former developers.

There was no consideration of any kind given to NEVS for the assignment of rental rights.

I hope I've been able to answer your questions and, if I have time with Uconn beating Missouri (I picked Missouri), I'll try to answer some more!!

Cliff


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Thanks for the welcome wmauryd!

The discussions with the town are ongoing but I believe I've been able to reach an agreement with the selectman at least in principle.  

The Board of Health suggested that we might have to install a sewage treatment plant.  When I balked, they referred the case to the MA Dept. of Environmental Protection.  We have had new septic plans drawn and I plan to meet with DEP within the next week or so in order that I can give all the owners an update in May.

At the moment, it appears that they've softened on the idea of a treatment plan (the estimates to build one were in the area of $1,000,000).  We also have no land on which to build a plant which would be a major problem for us if this became a requirement.

I'm hoping that DEP will allow us to make needed repairs if I sign an Order of Conditions agreeing to hook into the sewer if it should come within reach of the resort.  I believe this would be an acceptable solution and will report to the owners on the status in May so wish me well with the negotiations.

Cliff


----------



## NEVMSLLC

tombo, please don't misunderstand my remarks to mean that I do not want you to participate, I do.  Your comments about Festiva are helpful and I hope you'll continue.

Fesitva was chosen as an additional exchange opportunity because of the quality of their resort, the success of their exchange program and their affilition with Interval International.

Festiva has no involvement at all in the management or control of the resort.  In fact, prior to the agreement to affiliate with Festiva, we negotiated an agreement whereby Festiva will not be involved with resort management.  The owners and the resort are well protected and Festiva was completely agreeable and cooperative in addressing all of our concerns.  We are very comfortable with our affiliation with Festiva and have found them to be very professional in all of our interactions.  Besides, I love their resorts!!

Cliff


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi Sou13

I must confess to not understanding the concern about developer rights.  Those  rights have always been in force at the resort since the 1970s.  The difference is that now there is a "developer" that is making desperately needed repairs, repairing failing septic systems, negotiating with the town for shared use of the parking area that we don't own anymore, balancing the budget, establishing a reserve account, pursuing delinquent owners for back maintenance fees, selling their inventory to finally generate much needed income for the assocation, assigning it's inventory for rental income to the association, installing a computer system that actually works, renovating the fitness area, installing wireless internet throughout the resort, repainting the indoor pool, refurbishing units that haven't been updated in over twenty years, etc., etc.

Please tell me what your concern is, because I honestly don't understand.

Cliff


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> tombo, please don't misunderstand my remarks to mean that I do not want you to participate, I do.  Your comments about Festiva are helpful and I hope you'll continue.
> 
> Fesitva was chosen as an additional exchange opportunity because of the quality of their resort, the success of their exchange program and their affilition with Interval International.
> 
> Festiva has no involvement at all in the management or control of the resort.  In fact, prior to the agreement to affiliate with Festiva, we negotiated an agreement whereby Festiva will not be involved with resort management.  The owners and the resort are well protected and Festiva was completely agreeable and cooperative in addressing all of our concerns.  We are very comfortable with our affiliation with Festiva and have found them to be very professional in all of our interactions.  Besides, I love their resorts!!
> 
> Cliff



 Cliff, I appreciate your invitation to rejoin the discussion. It is nice of you to come here and answer questions. I love Festiva's resorts myself. However I am not a fan of Festiva the company. I do not like what happens to the owners when Festiva takes control of their resort.

The way I understand it, every time a week at Southscape is sold into Festiva Adventure club points, then Festiva will own that week FOREVER, and own the vote FOREVER. Unless your resort has a different agreement with Festiva than all other resorts have, they will have 500 Festiva controlled votes as soon as they sell the inventory you have made available to them. This is not counting the current dues paying owners Outfield is calling to convince them to give their weeks up for FAC points. Every current dues paying owner who converts will give Festiva another weeks worth of ownership at the resort, and another vote. It is not just the unsold inventory they are becoming owners of, it is every week they sell or convert that will become a Festiva owned week. How long before they control enough votes to put their employees on the board and how long before they can vote themselves the management company as they have done at every resort they control.

If Festiva will not gain control of the board, the resort, and never become the management company at the resort, you might have made a good deal for your resort. However I think Southscape has probably made a deal with a wolf in sheep's clothing. The trojan horse is inside the Southscape walls and Festiva is waiting for the right time to spring from the belly of it's cleverly constructed plan to capture the resort and become the owners of Southscape.

Unless you negotiated a deal in writing that specifically prevents Festiva from ever being allowed to put employees on the board or make themselves the management company, they will do both in the near future when they own enough weeks.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> I agree that NEVS not paying maintenance fees should be disconcerting.  My question is why is it disconcerting to you now when that's the way it's been for thirty years?  NEVS is the first "developer" in over twenty years that is actually going to try and sell it's inventory.  Why isn't that a tremendous benefit to all of the owners and the entire resort?
> Cliff



The other developers weren't selling the weeks to a whole different organization (Festiva) changing the makeup of ownership at the resort. Festiva will OWN larger and larger percentages of the resort every time one of those 500 weeks sell, and every time a current owner converts to FAC. Previously the ownership stayed with the resort as did the vote. Now the vote and ownership will be forever changed to the benefit of Festiva and to the detriment of the owners. Festiva will eventually own controlling interest in this resort which will change everything for the long time owners who have kept the resort operating for decades. 

 Was a vote ever taken to see if the owners wanted to sell or give the 500 weeks to NEVS? Why would it not have been better for the owners to keep the non dues paying weeks and run ads on TUG and other internet sites selling them for any price, even a dollar? Will having NEVS at Southscape decrease the owner's MF's, or lower the amount of the assessments? No because NEVS is not paying any MF's or assessments on the 500 weeks they own. The 500 weeks aren't generating any money either way, so having NEVS own them rather than the board is no advantage to the owners. Having NEVS let them sit there generating no income does help NEVS. If the resort had kept the weeks rather than giving them to NEVS, 100% of the income from the sales would go to the resort, and more importantly the votes and ownership would remain at the resort rather than being transfered to Festiva. The resort always had the option to rent those 500 weeks and keep all the rental income so that is not a new benefit for the owners.  

How much did NEVS pay for the 500 weeks and the developer owned areas? NEVS gets 500 weeks to sell and they cost NEVS nothing in annual MF's or assessments even if it takes them 3, 5, or 10 years to sell them all. Is there any time limit the 500 weeks have to be sold by? If no time limit was negotiated in writing, Outfield (or Festiva) will be on site as long as the resort exists selling what is left of the 500 weeks, selling newly acquired deed backs and repo's, and converting Southscape owner to FAC members with no votes and no rights.

I do see this as a great deal for NEVS. NEVS gets to have the owners assessed to pay for upgrades and refurbishments making their 500 weeks more valuable and easier to sell while contributing no money themselves. 500 weeks paying $400 a week would have cost NEVS $200,000 on the assessments alone. Add in the MF's  and you have probably saved close to $500,000 this year alone. That is a great deal that most developers don't get. Marriott and most other developers pay the MF's and assessments on any weeks they own and are selling. I am eagerly waiting to hear how having NEVS not paying anything for MF's and assessments on weeks they own could be a fair situation for the dues paying owners who are keeping the NEVS, Outfield, and Festiva cash cow in operation by paying all of the resorts expenses. That will be a world class spin on the facts.

Southscape will continue to operate for many years to come on the MF's of owners while NEVS sits on weeks which aren't costing them a penny while they look for buyers. Festiva makes money on the sales of Southscape weeks and becomes the majority owner of a resort they owned zero per cent of last year. The owners lose control and the value of their weeks drop as the MF's rise. 

There is a lot to be disconcerted about if you are an owner at Southscape IMO.


----------



## Sanford

*Cliff Welcome*

Cliff your involvement is most welcome. I believe much of this could be more pallatable and more easily understandable to many if your explanation were to include how and why Outfield Marketing is working so hard to get deeded owners to transfer their deeded weeks to Festiva? 

That portrays a situation with past sales techniques etc which has been undesireable, scary and reportedly for the gain of a select few at the expense of others.

What is in it for Outfield why are they trying so hard?
Are you and other Trustees part of that effort as well?

I really do believe that all the deeded owners want is to insure longevity in their rights as owners with the security that they wont be bullied into a " hostile takeover" of sorts as has been reported on here. 

The improvements if made and handled may indeed be beneficial, however it is the unknown and the lack of understanding as to who is to really gain by this all out attemot by Outfield to market and pressure existing deeded owners to buy into Festiva's points program...

Your reassurance and comments are most welcome.
 Thank You


----------



## Fig

*Some info*

Cliff, your particpation has been of top quality...as a consequence I have been able to sell my torch and pitchfork for a nice profit on Ebay to an AIG protester.

For the record I was looking into buying at Sandcastle...I called the number got the Outfiled recorded response which started me on a reverse lookup of phone numbers and research into Outfield and Festiva and halted my purchase.

As Sanford has touched upon, the relationship among Outfield, NEVS and Festiva is of concern. I don't expect you to address this post because I don't own and it touches upon a legal issue, but I pass it along for those concerned.

If two principles of Outfield, and yourself are making decisions for Southcape as meeting minutes show you can probably understand how that brings up concerns regarding conflict of interest. Here is something to consider...I am not a lawyer, but even I can understand this...

"Where an exempt organization engages in a transaction with an
insider and there is a purpose to benefit the insider rather than
the organization, inurement occurs even though the transaction
ultimately proves profitable for the exempt organization. The test
is not ultimate profit or loss but whether, at every stage of the
transaction, those controlling the organization guarded its
interests and dealt with related parties at arm's-length. See Leon
A. Beeghly Fund v. Commissioner, 35 T.C. 490 (1960). (Inurement
occurred when organization entered a transaction to benefit the
stockholders of a particular business corporation, not to benefit
the charity, even though corporation suffered no financial loss.)"

Here is the link I got it from http://en.allexperts.com/q/Nonprofit-Law-2266/2008/12/501c3-accept-donations-distribute-1.htm

There are numerous references to the ruling on other legal sites as well that provide advice to nonprofits for anyone who wants to do a little reading, just Google: Leon A. Beeghly Fund v. Commissioner, 35 T.C. 490 (1960)

I don't know how it came about that Outfield got access to Southcape's membership list to solict for Festiva, but it does not appear on the surface that this could nor have come about with Southcape's best interest in mind at every stage or with NEVS dealing at arm's length with any board at Southcape.


----------



## Fig

*Footnote*



Fig said:


> I don't know how it came about that Outfield got access to Southcape's membership list to solict for Festiva, but it does not appear on the surface that this could nor have come about with Southcape's best interest in mind at every stage or with NEVS dealing at arm's length with any board at Southcape.



As a footnote, the point that these meetings by Outfield are held educate Southcape members makes one wonder. Members can be educated in a newsletter at no additional cost to the HOA...and no loss of voting rights or personal cost to the member. If, as reported, Outfield can make over $3,000 from an inhouse meeting that results in the member paying thousands to retain their vacation experince and losing his or her voting right one has to wonder what is really motivating such meetings.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

tombo said:


> Cliff, I appreciate your invitation to rejoin the discussion. It is nice of you to come here and answer questions. I love Festiva's resorts myself. However I am not a fan of Festiva the company. I do not like what happens to the owners when Festiva takes control of their resort.
> 
> The way I understand it, every time a week at Southscape is sold into Festiva Adventure club points, then Festiva will own that week FOREVER, and own the vote FOREVER. Unless your resort has a different agreement with Festiva than all other resorts have, they will have 500 Festiva controlled votes as soon as they sell the inventory you have made available to them. This is not counting the current dues paying owners Outfield is calling to convince them to give their weeks up for FAC points. Every current dues paying owner who converts will give Festiva another weeks worth of ownership at the resort, and another vote. It is not just the unsold inventory they are becoming owners of, it is every week they sell or convert that will become a Festiva owned week. How long before they control enough votes to put their employees on the board and how long before they can vote themselves the management company as they have done at every resort they control.
> 
> If Festiva will not gain control of the board, the resort, and never become the management company at the resort, you might have made a good deal for your resort. However I think Southscape has probably made a deal with a wolf in sheep's clothing. The trojan horse is inside the Southscape walls and Festiva is waiting for the right time to spring from the belly of it's cleverly constructed plan to capture the resort and become the owners of Southscape.
> 
> Unless you negotiated a deal in writing that specifically prevents Festiva from ever being allowed to put employees on the board or make themselves the management company, they will do both in the near future when they own enough weeks.



Hi Tombo

It is true that when an owner deeds their week to Festiva, Festiva will own the week.  It does not necessarily follow that Festiva will vote that week.  That can be moderated by written agreement and sometimes is.  One doesn't have to follow the other.

We have not made any inventory available to Festiva and Festiva is not purchasing the NEVS inventory.  The only inventory Festiva will have is if an owner decides to join their points program and deeds their week to Festiva.  This is not an uncommon practice at all in the industry.

I myself have agreements with resorts that want me to sell their association owned inventory.  I actually own that inventory but I have assigned my voting rights back to the Board of Directors.  This happens all the time.  That it didn't happen at other resorts has nothing to do with Southcape.

Your conclusion is based on an assumption that's faulty.  Festiva has different relationships with different resorts.  Festiva did not buy the inventory at Southcape, NEVS did.  NEVS has no relationship with Festiva.  As I've said, when Southcape affiliated with Festiva, it was because of the quality of Festiva resorts, the strength of the Festiva exchange program and to offer our owners an opportunity to access a points program.  That's it.  If other resorts did not negotiate a situation with Festiva that would prevent Festiva from "taking over" a resort, that's not Southcape's problem.  Perhaps those resorts should hire me to manage them!!!


----------



## NEVMSLLC

tombo said:


> The other developers weren't selling the weeks to a whole different organization (Festiva) changing the makeup of ownership at the resort. Festiva will OWN larger and larger percentages of the resort every time one of those 500 weeks sell, and every time a current owner converts to FAC. Previously the ownership stayed with the resort as did the vote. Now the vote and ownership will be forever changed to the benefit of Festiva and to the detriment of the owners. Festiva will eventually own controlling interest in this resort which will change everything for the long time owners who have kept the resort operating for decades.
> 
> Was a vote ever taken to see if the owners wanted to sell or give the 500 weeks to NEVS? Why would it not have been better for the owners to keep the non dues paying weeks and run ads on TUG and other internet sites selling them for any price, even a dollar? Will having NEVS at Southscape decrease the owner's MF's, or lower the amount of the assessments? No because NEVS is not paying any MF's or assessments on the 500 weeks they own. The 500 weeks aren't generating any money either way, so having NEVS own them rather than the board is no advantage to the owners. Having NEVS let them sit there generating no income does help NEVS. If the resort had kept the weeks rather than giving them to NEVS, 100% of the income from the sales would go to the resort, and more importantly the votes and ownership would remain at the resort rather than being transfered to Festiva. The resort always had the option to rent those 500 weeks and keep all the rental income so that is not a new benefit for the owners.
> 
> How much did NEVS pay for the 500 weeks and the developer owned areas? NEVS gets 500 weeks to sell and they cost NEVS nothing in annual MF's or assessments even if it takes them 3, 5, or 10 years to sell them all. Is there any time limit the 500 weeks have to be sold by? If no time limit was negotiated in writing, Outfield (or Festiva) will be on site as long as the resort exists selling what is left of the 500 weeks, selling newly acquired deed backs and repo's, and converting Southscape owner to FAC members with no votes and no rights.
> 
> I do see this as a great deal for NEVS. NEVS gets to have the owners assessed to pay for upgrades and refurbishments making their 500 weeks more valuable and easier to sell while contributing no money themselves. 500 weeks paying $400 a week would have cost NEVS $200,000 on the assessments alone. Add in the MF's  and you have probably saved close to $500,000 this year alone. That is a great deal that most developers don't get. Marriott and most other developers pay the MF's and assessments on any weeks they own and are selling. I am eagerly waiting to hear how having NEVS not paying anything for MF's and assessments on weeks they own could be a fair situation for the dues paying owners who are keeping the NEVS, Outfield, and Festiva cash cow in operation by paying all of the resorts expenses. That will be a world class spin on the facts.
> 
> Southscape will continue to operate for many years to come on the MF's of owners while NEVS sits on weeks which aren't costing them a penny while they look for buyers. Festiva makes money on the sales of Southscape weeks and becomes the majority owner of a resort they owned zero per cent of last year. The owners lose control and the value of their weeks drop as the MF's rise.
> 
> There is a lot to be disconcerted about if you are an owner at Southscape IMO.



Gee Tombo, even though you're not an owner at Southcape, I'm going to answer your question anyway because there's a lot of misunderstanding in your question.

You're assuming that Festiva will be voting the weeks that they own and you do not know that for a fact.  You are assuming that Festiva will vote NEVS inventory and you do not know that for a fact.  You are assuming that previously the votes stayed with the resort when they, in fact, resided with the former developer.  These are the assumptions you use to conclude that Festiva will eventually own and control the resort.  This sort of argument is so full of holes that I don't even know how to comment on it without a course in logic.

No vote was taken of the owners because the owners didn't own the inventory that was sold to NEVS.  When NEVS sells its inventory, those weeks will be paying maintenance fees.  Those weeks have not paid maintenance fees in over 25 years!  In the meantime, remember the assignment of rental income to the association?  Can you still possibly believe that NEVS is not acting in the best interests of the resort as a whole?   Look at it this way, the better the resort is financially, from a renovation standpoint and from a management perspective, the more valuable NEVS inventory becomes and the better the resort becomes overall for everyone.  There is a symbiotic relationship here.  What's good for NEVS is good for the resort and vice versa.  You're criticizing NEVS for what the former developers did and I don't think that's fair.

What you say about other developers is simply not true either.  I know.  I've been a developer!!  Again and finally, your errors in both assumptions and conclusions are almost too numerous to mention.


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## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Tombo
> 
> It is true that when an owner deeds their week to Festiva, Festiva will own the week.  It does not necessarily follow that Festiva will vote that week.  That can be moderated by written agreement and sometimes is.  One doesn't have to follow the other.
> 
> We have not made any inventory available to Festiva and Festiva is not purchasing the NEVS inventory.  The only inventory Festiva will have is if an owner decides to join their points program and deeds their week to Festiva.  This is not an uncommon practice at all in the industry.
> 
> I myself have agreements with resorts that want me to sell their association owned inventory.  I actually own that inventory but I have assigned my voting rights back to the Board of Directors.  This happens all the time.  That it didn't happen at other resorts has nothing to do with Southcape.
> 
> Your conclusion is based on an assumption that's faulty.  Festiva has different relationships with different resorts.  Festiva did not buy the inventory at Southcape, NEVS did.  NEVS has no relationship with Festiva.  As I've said, when Southcape affiliated with Festiva, it was because of the quality of Festiva resorts, the strength of the Festiva exchange program and to offer our owners an opportunity to access a points program.  That's it.  If other resorts did not negotiate a situation with Festiva that would prevent Festiva from "taking over" a resort, that's not Southcape's problem.  Perhaps those resorts should hire me to manage them!!!



Why would Festiva own weeks and not vote? At Blue Ridge Village the CEO stood at the annual meeting and said that Festiva controlled the majority of votes in Phase 2 and could do whatever they want. Do you really expect them to operate differently at Southscape than they do at every other resort? You say that not allowing Festiva to vote could be negotiated, you just fail to mention if that was done at Southscape, and if so what was specifically agreed upon in writing. My bet is that Festiva owns and controls every deeded week and vote with no strings attached. Simple question, simple answer. Did Festiva sign an agreement stating that they will not receive any voting rights associated with the weeks they get deeded at Southscape?

You dodge many issues very skillfully. You say that NEVS has no relationship to Festiva, yet your marketing company (Outfield) is selling your 500 weeks exclusivelly as FAC points memberships. The same marketing group (outfield) is trying to convert any existing owner they can to Festiva and FAC points. Cliff, that is a stretch to say that your entire marketing efforts are to convert weeks to Festiva but that NEVS has no relationship with Festiva. You hired Outfield and you yourself said you chose Festiva. That is a business relationship using a middleman (outfield) between NEVS and Festiva. Is Outfield offering to sell any of the 500 NEVS weeks as a fixed week that is not a Festiva points week?
Simple question, simple answer. Is NEVS or Outfield Marketing selling anything at Southscape other than FAC points for Festiva resorts?

You say that the only weeks Festiva will own is weeks that owners deed to Festiva to join their program. The biggest owner at Southscape is NEVS and they are deeding their 500 weeks to Festiva every time Outfield sells another FAC membership. That is giving Festiva access to ALL Southscape inventory. Outfield has the list of Southscape owners to sell Festiva to, and Outfield has 500 NEVS weeks to sell Festiva points to non Southscape owners. There is no situation that could exist where Festiva would have more access to the weeks at Southscape other than Festiva already owning the 500 weeks.

You said that all of your voting rights were assigned to the board at other resort, but you managed to never state that the same situation was in place at Southscape. Unless you specifically say that you have give all voting rights on the 500 weeks you own to the board we can only assume that you have retained the voting rights for those 500 weeks. Simple question with a simple answer. Did you assign your voting rights back to the board at Southscape?

You said if other resorts didn't negotiate a situation where Festiva wouldn't take over the resort that is their problem. Well if Southscape and NEVS didn't negotiate a situation where Festiva won't take over their resort, then it is soon going to be the problem of the owners of Southscape. Simple question, simple answer. Were there terms negotiated with Festiva to prevent them from taking over Southscape?

I find that simple questions requiring simple answers get rid of a lot of vague answers and spin. I look forward to your simple answers to my simple questions. 

Tom


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## e.bram

With only 8 weeks having any real value on Cape Cod, why all the fuss over a TS which is not even on the beach? Hardly seems worth the effort. Even whole ownership of inland Cape property is not very valuable. I could see interest if the property was oceanfront(includes bayfront)


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## wmauryd

*mx fees on unsold units...southcape developer status*

Correct me if I'm wrong, but mx fees are normally NOT paid by anyone, on developer's unsold units. 

Suppose I was a developer, and conceived and recently constructed a resort.  I would be anxious to get the units sold quickly, so that I could recoup my investment. I would also be anxious to move the resort into its' "life" phase of being occupied and operational. Suppose I had 5000 unit-weeks to sell, had just gotten started with only the first 1% (50 units) sold. Would it make sense for me, as developer, to pay myself maintenance fees on the other 4950 units? 

Jumping forward to where I've sold 90% and there's 500 units remaining, mx fees are breaking even with resort operation. There's not much wear and tear yet, so mx fees remain low. Would it still make sense for me to pay those mx fees? Pay them to myself? I still have sales costs trying to move these units, sales returns are diminishing, so I reduce sales staff. The 'unsold' units-- perhaps some are mid-February, or less desirable float times, are by inherent nature less salable and less rentable. When possible, a few are sold or rented, but sales efforts dwindle down and the north side of the unsold inventory list begins to grow moss.

So the business plan moves forward leaving the 500 units unsold. So the questions  at this stage are: Retain the units in hopes of sales or rental revenues, or transfer ownership to the resort? And are the resort and developer separate entities at this stage? Will if it's transferring to the resort,  then why would the resort want to pay itself mx fees? To keep an accountant busy? And if it's the developer, what sense would it make to pay mx fees on there units that are less salable and less rentable.

In theory, the resort 'grows up' and parts ways with the developer-- they become separate business ventures.  But in reality, the 10% unsold inventory seems to create conditions where this parting of ways isn't going to happen so fast. It seems that's where we are today, and is the underlying condition for many of the posts being debated.

A) Cliff, maybe you could bring us up to speed as to how Southcape relates, or doesn't relate, to the above scenarios and questions. Provide us with a SC history lesson if you can.

B) If you're willing, tell us your vision of how Festiva and Outfield Marketing are positive for the Southcape ownership community as a whole--

C) As unit owners, we can't expect NEVM to operate as a non-profit organization, and we can't expect you to operate as an unpaid volunteer. Explain how you and NEVM benefit financially if all goes well-- Revealing more of your business plan and compensation will help the ownership community, (including 400 anti-Festiva rebels camped in the surrounding pine barrens), to be more supportive.


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## tombo

I am not an owner at Southscape which I told you when I was previously agreeing to leave this discussion to the owners. You responded with the following which is why I am back. 



NEVMSLLC said:


> tombo, please don't misunderstand my remarks to mean that I do not want you to participate, I do.  Your comments about Festiva are helpful and I hope you'll continue.
> 
> Cliff


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## e.bram

I am sure all the summer units are owned, and the rest are wortless. So who is going to try to sell what? It sounds like an Abbot and Costello routine. "Chopping water" my father used to say.


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## NEVMSLLC

OK, tombo, simple answers to those I can answer.

Do I expect Festiva to act differently?  Yes, I do.

The agreement with Festiva is confidential.

Outfield is not my marketing company, I have no interest in Outfield whatsoever.

The NEVS weeks are not being sold as Festiva points weeks.  Care to buy one?

Our marketing efforts are not to convert weeks to Festiva.  That is only an option.  Our efforts are to sell the weeks, period.  I frankly don't care if they join Festiva or not.

Again, I repeat, NEVS weeks are not being sold exclusively to Festiva or only to points owners.  The points program doesn't make sense for every timeshare owner.  Why would I limit my market to a product that only works for people who vacation in a way that makes points valuable for them and ignore the rest of the market???  Your statement that Festiva is getting ALL of the weeks is simply untrue and I've said it now in three different posts.  If you don't believe me, just say so and let's move on.  by the way, you don't have to believe me, you can check the registry of deeds yourself.

Tombo, if you haven't been following the discussion, the point has been repeatedly made that we are the board at Southcape.  Would you have me assign my votes to myself?

Again, I won't speak to the contract with Festiva as it is confidential other than to say that our contract appears to be different than others.  I am not at all concerned about a "Festiva takeover".  

Since you are not an owner at Southcape, can I assume that you own at another Festiva affiliated resort?  Or are you just repeating things you've heard others say?  I know people who had a very bad experience with my car dealer and yet, they've always treated me honestly and professionally and I will do business with them again.  The previous comment about the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior is based on the false assumption that no one can ever change.  If that were true, what would even be the point in trying to change since you would be having a conclusion that change is impossible.  

Sorry, but I was a philosophy major in college with a concentration in mathematical logic and your kind of arguments just make me insane because they simply don't make any sense and in many cases are just plain untrue.  If you have actual facts and wish me to comment on them, I'm happy to do that but I won't continue to comment on rumors, untruths and outrageous conclusions that have no basis in fact.


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## tombo

wmauryd said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but mx fees are normally NOT paid by anyone, on developer's unsold units.
> 
> Suppose I was a developer, and conceived and recently constructed a resort.  I would be anxious to get the units sold quickly, so that I could recoup my investment. I would also be anxious to move the resort into its' "life" phase of being occupied and operational. Suppose I had 5000 unit-weeks to sell, had just gotten started with only the first 1% (50 units) sold. Would it make sense for me, as developer, to pay myself maintenance fees on the other 4950 units?



MF's aren't payed to the developer. MF's pay the housekeeping, the electricity, the insurance,the taxes etc. Someone has to pay it or the power would be shut off, the insurance cancelled etc. The costs of operating the resort are shared by all owners paying their MF's. If a developer builds or buys a resort that has 10,000 units with costs requiring $600 per year for each of the 10,000 units and they have only sold 1,000, would you really expect the 1000 owners to pay $6000 each annually in MF's? No because no one would ever buy a week at that resort. Developers typically charge the owners a reasonable annual MF until they have sold enough weeks for the owners to cover expenses, and the developers pay the difference between what the owners pay and what the expenses actually are. Developers have a lot of incentive to sell weeks to both recoup their investment and to reduce the amount of money they must expend each year to keep the resort operating. Once they sell enough weeks so that the owners can afford to operate the resort, they stop paying operating expenses on their remaining inventory. Usually this is the point at which the developer turns control of the resort over to the HOA. 

When the resort's HOA owns the inventory then of course they don't pay MF's for inventory they own. In many instances the developers do pay for inventory they own. Festiva pays for weeks they own and assessments for weeks they own. They are both owner, sales, and developer in some instances. Cliff is correct that not all developers pay those expenses, but the point I was making is that some do. When the developer Marriott buys a week back using ROFR, they will pay all associated MF's and assessments on that week and any other week they own until it is sold.


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> I must confess to not understanding the concern about developer rights.  Those  rights have always been in force at the resort since the 1970s.



Because those developer rights allow you to effectively control the resort in an unlimited fashion with little regard to the rights of owners. If you decide tomorrow that you want to upgrade every unit with 42 plasma TV's,  and designer kitchens - you could do it. And the owners would have to pay for those improvements, not NEVS. That would obviously greatly enhance the sales price of the NEVS units, just as the current assessment is going to do on a smaller scale.

Likewise, if you decided that the managing entity (that you also control), should be receiving a much higher management fee, you can do so.  

Normally build-out clauses would transfer resort control to the owners once the resort is complete. However since those clauses are unlikely to ever be met, your control could be indefinite. 



NEVMSLLC said:


> I agree that NEVS not paying maintenance fees should be disconcerting.  My question is why is it disconcerting to you now when that's the way it's been for thirty years?
> 
> The funds will be used to make necessary repairs regardless of who owns in a particular unit.



Are you suggesting that owners should ignore this imbalance because it has occurred for thirty years?

In total, I think you have purchased control of a resort that has outdated by-laws that most owners or prospective buyers would find unconscionable. When combined with the weak protections of the Mass Timeshare Act, you effectively have control of the pocketbooks of the respective owners and have a level of control that is hard to fathom. 

Is essence, you have people paying to directly improve your property. The phase *"unjust enrichment"* does come mind.

All things being equal, would you purchase a timeshare in this resort given that situation?


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## ecwinch

Fig said:


> "Where an exempt organization engages in a transaction with an
> insider and there is a purpose to benefit the insider rather than
> the organization, inurement occurs even though the transaction
> ultimately proves profitable for the exempt organization. The test
> is not ultimate profit or loss but whether, at every stage of the
> transaction, those controlling the organization guarded its
> interests and dealt with related parties at arm's-length. See Leon
> A. Beeghly Fund v. Commissioner, 35 T.C. 490 (1960). (Inurement
> occurred when organization entered a transaction to benefit the
> stockholders of a particular business corporation, not to benefit
> the charity, even though corporation suffered no financial loss.)"



This is partially addressed in Article IX of the by-laws at SC, as long as deceit or fraud is not involved.  See the section titled "Interest Not To Disqualify" on page 27. 

Basically states that insider transactions are allowed.


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## NEVMSLLC

Hi wmauryd

Had to laugh when i read your post.  I was actually going to take a break and pay some bills but felt I should respond to this right away.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  what typically happens is that when a few weeks are left in a developer's inventory, they "dump" those weeks to get someone to pay a maintenance fee and then move on.  Now the resort is in good shape financially and the owners are running the show.  

Over time, more and more owners stop paying maintenance fees and the board has to continue to raise them to keep up with expenses.  The board is made up of owners who have no industry background and no way to sell the weeks of delinquent owners to bring in new maintenance fees and the problem gets worse from there.  I've worked with over 30 resorts in New England where this is exactly what's happened.

Now look at Southcape.  The developer didn't sell the remaining weeks and didn't have to pay maintenance fees.  They've kept control of the resort for over 20 years.  They also didn't do much about delinquent owners and certainly had no way of replacing them since they weren't even selling their own inventory.  Southcape had both problems - unsold developer inventory and increasing delinquent inventory.

Now, NEVS comes in to sell the developer inventory, hire a collection company to collect back maintenance fees, set up a sales program to sell NEVS weeks and delinquent weeks and to eventually help owners who want to sell move their weeks and all of this is bad for the resort?  On the contrary, it's the best thing that could happen to Southcape and it should have been done 20 years ago.  Why do you think I've been trying to buy that inventory for 15 years.  I know what happens and I want to prevent that from happening to a resort I personally care a lot about.

The "parting of the ways" will certainly happen in less than 20 years.  i can promise you that NEVS did not purchase the inventory to hold on to it and say, gee look at all of our inventory!  NEVS bought the inventory to sell it.  That's how NEVS makes money.  The owners, in their own best interests, should do everything they possibly can to help NEVS sell that inventory, bring in new owners and generate new maintenance fees and help NEVS to create a healthy resort.  Whether they will or not remains to be seen, but I'm an eternal optimist and I think the vast majority of owners will help.

By the way, I've heard from a lot of owners and almost all of them are saying it's about time the resort was renovated, the inventory sold and to do something about the delinquent owners.  I prefer to believe that those that aren't saying that just do not understand what's really going on and that's why I've agreed to participate in this discussion and why I spend a huge amount of time communicating with owners.  If I didn't care, why would I do that?  I can assure you it's not always pleasant!

How are Festiva and Outfield beneficial to the resort?  Festiva is simple.  I think owners should have as many vacation options as possible and that includes access to a points based system.  Festiva has, in my opinion, one of the best points based systems there is.  southcape owners will have the option of II, RCI and Festiva and anyone else I can get in there that gives our owners the best options in the industry.  No one has to do anything but I do think they should have the option.

Outfield is a bit different.  A resort that has no ability to sell left over developer inventory, association owned inventory, delinquent inventory and owner resale inventory is a resort that ultimately will fail.  You don't like it and I don't like it but sales and marketing are critical to having an ongoing successful resort.  I've been involved in consulting for resorts that had to close and it ain't pretty.  I've worked with Outfield for eight years at many other resorts and I think Outfield is about the best and most professional sales organization in the timeshare industry.  Before anyone asks, I am not an owner of Outfield and I have no interest in Outfield at all.  

I'll say one other thing about Outfield.  You cannot have a sales organization in any industry without having problems created by salespeople.  Salespeople sell.  That's their job.  Occasionally, salespeople go too far, in every industry.  It's not about whether or not salespeople make mistakes, it's about what the company does to rectify those mistakes when they occur that's really important.  whenever I have reported a problem with a sales rep to Outfield, they have done one of two things - either fired the rep or brought them in for additional training and education.  The truth is, I'm simply not hearing complaints about Outfield from Southcape owners.  If I did, I would act on it and so would Outfield.

Since the life blood of any resort is sales, I thought (and still think) that the best thing for Southcape Resort is to work with the best sales organization out there.  For my money (oh, yeah, it is my money!) that company is Outfield Marketing.

I'd be happy to get paid as a trustee!!  I just don't think it's a good idea and that board members should not be paid.  I think they should be board members because they care enough about the resort to volunteer their time and expertise for the benefit of the owners and yes, I mean all of the owners.

NEVS will make money when they sell their inventory.

I'm the General Partner of the management company and that's how I make my money.  If I do a good job, the owners will want to keep me.  If I do a lousy job, they should throw me out.  Guess which way I'd prefer!  I have a vested financial interest and incentive to do the best management job possible for the resort and the owners or I'm going to have to find another way to make a living.  I actually like what I do and I enjoy talking with the owners (mostly . . . ).  For almost twenty years I've had a vision of what Southcape could be and now I have a chance to make it a reality.  There is a plan to make that happen and I'll get into that in more detail at another time.  My fingers are getting sore from typing!

Finally, I don't get paid by Southcape, I don't get paid by Festiva and I don't get paid by Outfield.  I will get paid by NEVS if I can help them successfully sell their weeks (so, yes, I want them to sell their weeks!) and I get paid by the management company.  That's it.  It means absolutely nothing to me if owners join Festiva or not. 

Finally, I know Festiva had problems in the past.  Just to set the record straight, so did Marriott, Disney, Hilton, Embassy, II, RCI and a bunch of others.  Are you still getting the kind of exchanges through RCI that you used to get?  I don't really care what happened in the past because none of us can change it.  Believe it or not, even I wasn't always perfect! What I care about is what are you doing today and what are you going to do tomorrow.  That's what's really important, isn't it?


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Can you still possibly believe that NEVS is not acting in the best interests of the resort as a whole?



Cliff,

I have read your posts, and you seem like a reasonable fellow. In my mind, what this comes down to is respecting owner rights. Maybe you will do this, maybe you wont. Time will tell. With a few minor exceptions, I do not disagree with most of what you have said. However, If you really have the best interests of resort in mind, then:

1) Hold Board elections, and cast your votes in proportion to those of the general owner population. You still would have the right to appoint one director as the developer. 

2) Offer to offset any short-falls in the rental income from the assigned units vs the special assessment that would be due on those weeks.

While no one likes special assessments. I think we all recognize they are needed from time to time. This one is unequitable since the owners are paying to improve NEVS's property.


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## e.bram

I don't see anybody including NVES selling off season(any week except 25 thru 34)Cape Cod weeks. You can't even give them away. This whole thread is "chopping water". The best outcome is to turn Southcape into whole ownership and pay off all the owners the the sale.


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## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> OK, tombo, simple answers to those I can answer.
> 
> Do I expect Festiva to act differently?  Yes, I do. .



Why? They have not acted differently at any other resort. You refuse to specifically name any written safeguards that would make them act differently. Please google Festiva and see how many sites and posts come up with negative threads from owners about Festiva. They have been sued 2 times in the last 4 or 5 years, once by the Missouri Att General (which they settled) and currently by the owners at The Atrium.



NEVMSLLC said:


> The agreement with Festiva is confidential.


That always will sound like a simple way to avoid answering questions. Anything you don't feel like answering could be answered in this manner IMO.



NEVMSLLC said:


> Outfield is not my marketing company, I have no interest in Outfield whatsoever..



Who hired Outfield? You? The board. Of course if the board hired them you are the board, so same thing. If you hred them, then you tell them what to sell and for what price. You are their employer and as such you do have an interest in what Outfield does.



NEVMSLLC said:


> The NEVS weeks are not being sold as Festiva points weeks.  Care to buy one?.



The only offers from Outfield to buy that any owner has posted here is to swap their week for membership in the Festiva Adventure Club. Please find one owner's post describing any sales offer from Outfield other than the offer to become an FAC member. As far as me being an interested buyer,I do not want to buy a week at any resort that Festiva is becoming a part of.



NEVMSLLC said:


> Our marketing efforts are not to convert weeks to Festiva.  That is only an option.  Our efforts are to sell the weeks, period.  I frankly don't care if they join Festiva or not..



This is a great forum and time to explain other sales options at Southscape other than FAC. Please post other purchase options here for those who are interested. The marketing pitch used by Outfield is a Festiva pitch exclusivelly from what has been posted here and other places. This thread describes what I have repeatedly read and it is totally a Festiva sales pitch: http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html



NEVMSLLC said:


> Again, I repeat, NEVS weeks are not being sold exclusively to Festiva or only to points owners.  The points program doesn't make sense for every timeshare owner.



Just to clarify, NEVS is in charge of selling weeks at other resorts than Southscape. The simple question here is NEVS or outfield marketing Southscape weeks in a manner other than offering them as FAC points memberships? That is all anyone here has been approached about.



NEVMSLLC said:


> Tombo, if you haven't been following the discussion, the point has been repeatedly made that we are the board at Southcape.  Would you have me assign my votes to myself? .



I think having a developer on any board is a very bad thing for a resort. Having a board with the majority of board members aligned with the devloper is something I really feel should be illegal. The conflict of interest potential is too great. If you assigned the votes to the board and for some reason you were not a board member anymore, the votes would remain with the board, so not a bad thing for the resort in the long run.



NEVMSLLC said:


> Again, I won't speak to the contract with Festiva as it is confidential other than to say that our contract appears to be different than others.  I am not at all concerned about a "Festiva takeover".  .


Why couldn't you say that we have protected the owners and this resort by implementing the following safeguards. Saying I can't legally discuss any details means to me that the details are not something the existing or potential owners would be happy about. If I was selling weeks at Southscape, both NEVS and Festiva would be as transparent as possible regarding the situation to calm fears and make people more comfortable with owning at Southscape. Festiva has bad reviews all over the web making anyone who researches Festiva worry about their future at this resort. Response like I can't discuss the deails because of legal reasons makes it appear that there is something to hide and does nothing to calm fears.



NEVMSLLC said:


> Since you are not an owner at Southcape, can I assume that you own at another Festiva affiliated resort? .



Yes I own at anothe resort Festiva has taken control of. If I didn't own at a Festiva resort I wouldn't know or care what their potential association with Southscape is. My resort without warning was taken over by Festiva. One of the Festiva CEO's tired of people asking questions at the annual meeting last year stood and said that Festiva owned the controlling votes in phase 2 and could do whatever they want to do at our resort. He said they also control 3 out of 5 board spots. He said if you don't like it we will allow you to deed your weeks to us and you can leave. This is why I fell so strongly about Festiva gaining control of the votes. This is why I don't beleive that they will act any differently at Southscape or anywhere else unless legally bound to act differently. I love my resort, but not the direction it is headed thanks to Festiva. They increase MF's and assess to the point that your resort is not worth owning anymore. I am here to warn Southscape owners before it is too late at their resort like it is already too late at mine.


The following 2 previously asked simple questions have simple answers you have failed to give. I assume we know the answers already, and the answers are that nothing is in place to prevent Festiva from taking control of Southscape or exercising their votes on weeks they acquire at Southscape.

Here are the 2 questions again if you want to take a shot at them:

1.Did Festiva sign an agreement stating that they will not receive any voting rights associated with the weeks they get deeded at Southscape?


2. Were there terms negotiated with Festiva to prevent them from ever being able to manage or take over Southscape?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sorry tombo

Most all contracts are private and confidential.  Even if they weren't, I certainly would not post the contents of any contract in a public forum.  Even if they were discoverable by Southcape owners only, you are not a Southcape owner and I still could not publish them in a public forum.

My answers to you seem to mean little to you and that's fine with me, i don't represent you at all.  It seems clear that your problems are with Festiva and, again, that's fine with me, but perhaps you would be better off taking your concerns to a Festiva board.  I'm sure everyone can see that you've made your point, erroneous as it might be and I have confidence that Southcape owners can decide for themselves between your posts and mine.

I said right in the beginning that I would not answer questions of a legal nature because I'm not an attorney and I'm certainly not about to let you goad me into doing exactly that.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with Festiva.  But to take that experience and postulate that now everyone will have a problem with Festiva is just too silly to continue to comment on.

Cliff


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## NEVMSLLC

If you all don't mind, I'm going to take a break to watch some March Madness.  My girlfriend has Louisville winning today and I actually have Michigan State.  If I lose, I have to cook dinner for a month . . . 

I think I'd rather face a public forum of Southcape owners  . . . 

Go Michigan!!!

Cliff


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## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> Sorry tombo
> 
> Most all contracts are private and confidential.  Even if they weren't, I certainly would not post the contents of any contract in a public forum.  Even if they were discoverable by Southcape owners only, you are not a Southcape owner and I still could not publish them in a public forum.
> 
> My answers to you seem to mean little to you and that's fine with me, i don't represent you at all.  It seems clear that your problems are with Festiva and, again, that's fine with me, but perhaps you would be better off taking your concerns to a Festiva board.  I'm sure everyone can see that you've made your point, erroneous as it might be and I have confidence that Southcape owners can decide for themselves between your posts and mine.
> 
> I said right in the beginning that I would not answer questions of a legal nature because I'm not an attorney and I'm certainly not about to let you goad me into doing exactly that.
> 
> I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with Festiva.  But to take that experience and postulate that now everyone will have a problem with Festiva is just too silly to continue to comment on.
> 
> Cliff



Festiva allegedly raised MF's 60% in the first 3 years they gained control of The Church Street Inn. Festiva allegedly raised MF's 10% and charged an assessment 2 times the annual MF's the first year they were owners of the Atrium. Festiva reportedly went to court to try to negate a contract at the Atrium which limited the amount that annual fees could be increased each year. Some of the owners at the Atrium are suing Festiva over not honoring the contracts they signed when they purchased their weeks prior to Festiva's arrival. Several Peppertree owners have posts with problems at their resorts since Festiva took over. It is a lot easier to find 20 negative Festiva posts on the web than to find one positive post. Just google and see for yourself.

Festiva took over my resort last year by buying enough inventory to own the majority vote. Festiva now controls the board, the clubhouse and common areas, the vote, they are the management company at my resort, and they are starting to renovate all the units at owners expense to put in granite counter tops, flat screen TV's, etc with no owner vote or input. The assessment letters supposedly are coming soon. Everything other owners said happened to them when Festiva took over at their resorts is starting to happen at my resort now. From what I know of Festiva's actions at other resorts and from what I have seen at my resort, one could easily postulate that most everyone will have problems with Festiva once they gain control of the vote.


I appreciate your answers and have read each and every one.Any contract can be made public if both parties agree to it. If there is nothing to hide it would be a simple thing to do providing that the contract doesn't contain things that one or both parties would not like to become public. My recent posts asked a few simple questions that were dodged and ignored two different times. Your position is that Southscape owners should just trust NEVS, Outfield, and Festiva to do what is in the best interest of the owners with no actual written confirmation that they will be protected. The owners should believe that what Festiva did at other resorts will not happen at Southscape without any confirmation that there are any legal restrictions placed on them preventing them from controlling the vote or the resort, and nothing in place that anyone can see preventing them from becoming the mgt company at Southscape in the future. My position is that having Festiva acquiring votes at a resort where you are an owner will probably lead to assessments and increased MF's with no say in the control of your resort in the future. I assume like you said that the owners can decide for themselves between our posts.


----------



## Sou13

*Reply to concern about developer rights*

I can't begin to go back to the questions addressed to me because so many concerns have been raised since then.  What I can do is go back to what happened subsequent to my meeting with the on-site sales rep Greg Hughes (508-477-4700x132):

My first question emailed to rcassidy@southcaperesort.com has never to my knowledge been answered:

*I have been contacted by Outfield Marketing and find this situation disturbing.  How can Southcape Resort continue to prey on owners for the upkeep and improvement while Outfield Marketing is preying on them for thousands of dollars for Festiva Resorts "points"?  Who gets the money and how does this help alleviate the shortfall at Southcape?*

The reason Cliff Hagberg knows who I am could be that I myself included the link to a TUG discussion in one of my emails to Rosaleen Cassidy.  That's why I had to hide behind the fake TUG user ID and hope I could continue to post info here without fear of reprisal.

When I posted the reply to my email and even included the link to the Master Deed in my signature, how could he *not* have put two and two together?  Did he post that he majored in math?  Or whatever, my head is spinning and I have to get on to my next set of problems.

So, now that my true identity, up to now known only by the staff at Southcape and one other TUG memeber, can be acknowledged, can I get answers to my questions?  That was only the first!

To reply to my concern about developer rights, I must ask, what's in it for the developer?  Why would a developer want to put out $1.5 *million* for that right?  Especially in today's timeshare market with which the developer is so intimately familiar!

For my money, I hope Michigan State wins (or won) so that we can get more answers here!


----------



## ecwinch

Tombo,

Just my opinion - but this thread is getting hard to read with all the cross traffic about Festiva, and what has happened at your resort. There definitely is some applicability to SC, but interested parties can read about that in the Festiva thread. I think we empathize with you and what has happened.

Festiva does not manage SC. NEVS does. 

They may at some future date be in control. But that is not today. I am more interested in what is going at SC today. And given the current by-laws at SC, Festiva might be the least of those concerns.


----------



## Sou13

*You gotta be kidding!*



ecwinch said:


> Tombo,
> 
> Just my opinion - but this thread is getting hard to read with all the cross traffic about Festiva, and what has happened at your resort. There definitely is some applicability to SC, but interested parties can read about that in the Festiva thread. I think we empathize with you and what has happened.
> 
> Festiva does not manage SC. NEVS does.
> 
> They may at some future date be in control. But that is not today. I am more interested in what is going at SC today. And given the current by-laws at SC, Festiva might be the least of those concerns.



Eric, I've thanked you more than once for your interest in the affairs of Southcape Resort now that NEVS has invited the Trojan Horse in, and you want to kick tombo off this forum?  You even tried kicking me off the discussion I started in the "Points System Discussions" forum!

If you are truly interested in buying a week at Southcape, why would you be *now that there are two principals of Outfield Marketing on the Board of Trustees?*


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Tombo,
> 
> Just my opinion - but this thread is getting hard to read with all the cross traffic about Festiva, and what has happened at your resort. There definitely is some applicability to SC, but interested parties can read about that in the Festiva thread. I think we empathize with you and what has happened.
> 
> Festiva does not manage SC. NEVS does.
> 
> They may at some future date be in control. But that is not today. I am more interested in what is going at SC today. And given the current by-laws at SC, Festiva might be the least of those concerns.



What is going on today is the sale of 500 weeks. Although it is sort of being denied, the 500 weeks that NEVS owns is being sold (predominatelly if not totally) as FAC memberships. If those sales continue Festiva will eventually control the vote and the resort. NEVS is giving control of Southscape to Festiva by selling Festiva points. If enough owners raise he** here they might get NEVS to sell something different like Bluegreen points? Since NEVS chose to sell Festiva memberships, perhaps they could choose to sell something else that would benefit NEVS and the owners.The direction the resort is currently headed should be obvious.  If you put your head in the sand and say it isn't Festiva controlled resort yet, then Southscape will simply become a Festiva resort, and that is a bad thing IMO.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

tombo

It's not sort of being denied, I've tried to tell you straight out.  *It ain't true.*  NEVS is not selling the weeks to Festiva nor is NEVS selling them only as Festiva points.  You want to buy a week straight up, they'd love to sell one to you.  What don't you get????

Cliff


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> tombo
> 
> It's not sort of being denied, I've tried to tell you straight out.  *It ain't true.*  NEVS is not selling the weeks to Festiva nor is NEVS selling them only as Festiva points.  You want to buy a week straight up, they'd love to sell one to you.  What don't you get????
> 
> Cliff



OK. So NEVS is not selling weeks to Festiva and NEVS will sell weeks to people as FAC memberships and in other packages. 

Outfield marketing who was hired by NEVS to sell weeks at Southscape is selling Festiva Points and no one who has been approached by Outfield has been pitched on anything but Festiva Points. Outfield is trying to convince all owners at Southscape that they must convert to Festiva Points or their weeks will be worthless. NEVS might be offering weeks in other packages than just FAC, but the main marketing program at Southscape appears to be Outfield. Outfield sells Festiva and nothing else according to everyone on this thread who has had contact with Outfield.

Would any interested potential buyer or current owner at Southscape who has been contacted by NEVS or Outfield to buy anything at Southscape other than Festiva Points please post a response. There have been numerous posts from people who have received the Festiva pitch, let's see if anyone here has received any other kind of sales pitch.


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## NEVMSLLC

tombo

I'm done communicating with you.  If you were to visit Southcape resort, you would be offered a week to buy.  You would also be offered the opportunity to join II or RCI or Festiva. whether you did or not would be up to you after we explained the advantages and disadvantages of each.  I know because I'm there every day, you are not.  I'm sorry, but I can no longer deal with your paranoid fantasies. I feel badly that you've allowed one bad experience to completely poison your mind.  I really do believe you (and we) would be better off if you took your paranoid rantings about Festiva elsewhere.  Keep in mind, this board is (I believe)  for Southcape owners to get answers to questions they have and not for owners at other resorts to complain about their problems.

Cliff


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## wmauryd

*March madness*

Cliff,

Hey Michigan came through so congratulations!


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Eric, I've thanked you more than once for your interest in the affairs of Southcape Resort now that NEVS has invited the Trojan Horse in, and you want to kick tombo off this forum?  You even tried kicking me off the discussion I started in the "Points System Discussions" forum!
> 
> If you are truly interested in buying a week at Southcape, why would you be *now that there are two principals of Outfield Marketing on the Board of Trustees?*



I am just suggesting we keep the respective threads on topic. We have a Festiva thread over in the points forum, and a Southcape one here. But in the Festiva thread we have posts asking FestivaRep about the board at Southcape, and how NEVS obtained control of the resort. And over here we have posts asking NEVMSLLC about Festiva's activities at other resorts. Does it not make sense to keep the respective threads on topic? 

As with most threads, the same core group of people are providing the majority of the posts. I think it just confusing with all the cross-posts.

I am not trying to "kick" anyone off the thread. Just trying to keep the posts on topic.


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## wmauryd

*turn Southcape into whole ownership*



e.bram said:


> The best outcome is to turn Southcape into whole ownership and pay off all the owners the the sale.



E. Bram:

Re "The best outcome is to turn Southcape into whole ownership and pay off all the owners the the sale" -- Are you suggesting the resort have a single owner and no longer be a timeshare?


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## e.bram

Each unit wholly owned.
Yes not a TS


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## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> tombo
> 
> I'm done communicating with you.  If you were to visit Southcape resort, you would be offered a week to buy.  You would also be offered the opportunity to join II or RCI or Festiva. whether you did or not would be up to you after we explained the advantages and disadvantages of each.  I know because I'm there every day, you are not.  I'm sorry, but I can no longer deal with your paranoid fantasies. I feel badly that you've allowed one bad experience to completely poison your mind.  I really do believe you (and we) would be better off if you took your paranoid rantings about Festiva elsewhere.  Keep in mind, this board is (I believe)  for Southcape owners to get answers to questions they have and not for owners at other resorts to complain about their problems.
> 
> Cliff



Cliff,I remember you saying that you wouldn't deal with personal attacks when you joined the discussions. I feel the same way, and having you call me paranoid is unacceptable and unprofessional. Paranoid is delusional, irrational behavior. Rather than operating irrationally I have assimilated FACTS from previous events at mine and other resorts, and compared them to current situations at Southscape, to predict a probable future outcome. The probable outcome IMO is that Festiva will take over Southscape. Refuting my facts and theories with your own and answering a couple of simple questions would have been a good way to rebutte my posts. Calling me names, refusing to answer those questions, and asking me to leave this thread is admitting that what I posted is correct IMO. See how I posted a rational response to your emotional, derogatory post.

 Outfield has been marketing festiva to Equivest owners in Branson since at least December of 2007. http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...e_Vac_Club_Any_feedback-Branson_Missouri.html
How could anyone beleive that Outfield Marketing has nothing to do with Festiva after reading these posts?  They were marketing Festiva before NEVS started selling weeks at Southscape.

 You Have nothing to do with festiva or outfield according to your posts. You are one of 3 trustees from your own words: "The trustees are Clifford Hagberg, Steven Lamantia and Thomas C. Franks and we can all be reached in care of the resort." Steve Lamantia has been marketing Festiva points with Outfield since at least February of 2008. http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html
Lamantia is a trustee, works for Outfield, and posters actually beleived he was a Festiva rep after he left their home, but you have nothing to do with Festiva or Outfield. Someone appointed him a trustee. You are one of three trustees, Lamantia from Outfield completes 2/3's of the total trustees, but everyone should believe that you have nothing to do with Outfield or Festiva. I am curious who the third trustee (Thomas C Franks) holds allegiance to. The trustees are currently composed of one NEVS, one Outfield, and one player whose team has yet to be named. Could the third trustee be associated with Festiva (a possibility which is purely conjecture)?

You are trying to sell your 500 weeks, and you are the one who chose to affiliate Southscape with Festiva. I am trying to help prevent the owners at Southscape from becoming owners at a Festiva controlled resort. You have financial incentives to put a positive spin on everything. I am simply telling people what I feel the situation is with nothing in it dollarwise for me. In fact it might be costing me money warning everyone about the problems with Festiva because it is probably reducing the value of the weeks I own at a Festiva resort. Should Southscape owners trust the NEVS timeshare salesman's posts, or the timeshare owner's posts? As you said the Southscape owners can decide for themselves.

I know you say that I should stick to the Festiva board since you feel that my comments should be there. Maybe the Southscape forum should be moved to the Festiva points thread since Festiva already has it listed as their newest vacation destination. http://www.festivaresorts.com/southcape.php

I have no problem not communicating any further with you. I have said all I need to say.

Tom


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## Sou13

*Are you a bylaws expert?*



ecwinch said:


> Tombo,
> 
> Just my opinion - but this thread is getting hard to read with all the cross traffic about Festiva, and what has happened at your resort. There definitely is some applicability to SC, but interested parties can read about that in the Festiva thread. I think we empathize with you and what has happened.
> 
> Festiva does not manage SC. NEVS does.
> 
> They may at some future date be in control. But that is not today. I am more interested in what is going at SC today. And given the current by-laws at SC, Festiva might be the least of those concerns.



Eric, are you a bylaws expert?  What is it in the bylaws that is of most concern to you?

I, too, am concerned about them, and suspect that there are amendments on file somewhere that I don't have the knowhow to access.

I also don't believe that Cliff Hagberg is a legal expert but do believe that he's in this for business not personal reasons.

The "girlfriend" is one example.  On the Sandcastle thread one owner tried to reassure the concerned owners that Cliff Hagberg had said that Sandcastle is his "wife's" favorite timeshare or something to that effect.

For more on the situation at Sandcastle, go to [merged] Sandcastle Shift to "Festiva" Points

I read all the Festiva discussions before joining TUG and posting to this one.  That's how I learned about a similar situation going on simultaneously at Sandcastle.  Someone there tried to tell me to butt out, not understanding that I'm looking out for them and that we have NEVS and NEVMS in common.

So now that my Yahoo! Briefcase files are gone (I thought I had posted the reason but must have failed to "submit"!), I should be able to find more time to cross-reference posts here.  It's much easier to post a link to a post in another discussion when you know how to do that.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Eric, are you a bylaws expert?  What is it in the bylaws that is of most concern to you?
> 
> I also don't believe that Cliff Hagberg is a legal expert but do believe that he's in this for business not personal reasons.



I once heard that an expert is someone who knows 10,000 sexual positions and has never had sex. Or a drip under pressure. I am not an expert.

I have spent a fair amount of time reading the Master Deed, the timeshare trust agreements, and the by-laws at SC.

Clearly the thing that is scaring me away as a prospective owner is that the resort is still fully in developer control after 20 or 30 years of operation. I think most by-laws are written under the premise that a resort will have a short period of developer control while build out occurs, and control will pass to the owners as the units are sold. And I fully understand why a developer would need the protections afforded to them during the build-out phase. 

But here we have a resort where development has stopped, but the developer still is in control of the resort after 20 or 30 years. And that control might never end. That combined with the fact the assessment dollars will be used to improve NEVS property is a major issue for me.

And given Cliff's track record in real estate, I think he is being disingenuous about his understanding of the law. No one works as a real estate developer or holds the position he holds, without a solid understanding of real estate law. I understand the need for a disclaimer, but give us more credit than that.


----------



## Sou13

*Time to review "answers"*

We need to all go back and review Cliff Hagberg's posts.

For starters, I'm suspicious of his reasons for joining the discussion.  We are here as Southcape owners who have been solicited by Outfield Marketing to "convert" our deeded weeks to Festiva "points"!

How many of our concerns has he satisfactorily addressed?  He tried to blow me off by asking why I should be so concerned about developer rights?

Let's take a closer look at those "rights" and find out what they are supposed to be!

Have you been perusing the entire Master Deed?  Look at BOOK 3526 PAGE 002.  I don't know how to copy and paste this, so I'll quote it:



> WHEREAS the Declarant intends to transfer to SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION, INC. (hereinafter "Corporation") the aforementioned Lot 1 and 7, to be maintained, operated, improved or administered by SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION, INC. as herein provided.



Now go to BOOK 3526 PAGE 007 and look at 6. Easement for Construction of Residential Units:  Here we learn that the Atlantic Metropolitan Corporation intended to construct *132* residential units.

Whatever became of the Atlantic Metropolitan Corporation may be worth investigating, as well as whatever became of Barth and Woods.  I know there are TUG members who love to delve into these things, so is anyone willing?



ecwinch said:


> I once heard that an expert is someone who knows 10,000 sexual positions and has never had sex. Or a drip under pressure. I am not an expert.
> 
> I have spent a fair amount of time reading the Master Deed, the timeshare trust agreements, and the by-laws at SC.
> 
> Clearly the thing that is scaring me away as a prospective owner is that the resort is still fully in developer control after 20 or 30 years of operation. I think most by-laws are written under the premise that a resort will have a short period of developer control while build out occurs, and control will pass to the owners as the units are sold. And I fully understand why a developer would need the protections afforded to them during the build-out phase.
> 
> But here we have a resort where development has stopped, but the developer still is in control of the resort after 20 or 30 years. And that control might never end. That combined with the fact the assessment dollars will be used to improve NEVS property is a major issue for me.
> 
> And given Cliff's track record in real estate, I think he is being disingenuous about his understanding of the law. No one works as a real estate developer or holds the position he holds, without a solid understanding of real estate law. I understand the need for a disclaimer, but give us more credit than that.


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## ecwinch

Sou13 - I think you are on the right track. The way the documents are structured, NEVS might never give up control of the resort.

If you refer to Article V, Section 2.a, you will see that NEVS will retain at 51% of the control until all 132 units are constructed. If I understood the previous post about the township seizing some lots, is it even possible for SC to build 132 units?

And given what I have read in the Sandcastle thread, I see a number of similarities. I particularly like the comments that their is no reason for the HOA to form, since the trust is still under developer control and they would have nothing to vote on.

One have to wonder if there is not a pattern here that NEVS is exploiting - i.e. take over incomplete resorts that are still under developer control, and have owners pay to improve the property.


----------



## Sou13

*Let's all be on the same page here*

I had to scroll down to p. 34 in order to find Article V, Section 2.a which is found in BOOK 3526 PAGE 031.  Has anyone noticed how "Developer" Hagberg tried to blow me off when I raised questions and concerns about "developer rights"? 



ecwinch said:


> Sou13 - I think you are on the right track. The way the documents are structured, NEVS might never give up control of the resort.
> 
> If you refer to Article V, Section 2.a, you will see that NEVS will retain at 51% of the control until all 132 units are constructed. If I understood the previous post about the township seizing some lots, is it even possible for SC to build 132 units?
> 
> And given what I have read in the Sandcastle thread, I see a number of similarities. I particularly like the comments that their is no reason for the HOA to form, since the trust is still under developer control and they would have nothing to vote on.
> 
> One have to wonder if there is not a pattern here that NEVS is exploiting - i.e. take over incomplete resorts that are still under developer control, and have owners pay to improve the property.


----------



## Sou13

tombo said:


> I know you say that I should stick to the Festiva board since you feel that my comments should be there. Maybe the Southscape forum should be moved to the Festiva points thread since Festiva already has it listed as their newest vacation destination. http://www.festivaresorts.com/southcape.php
> 
> Tom



Does that photo with the Festiva emblem on it look like anything other than a newly refurbished Condo I unit to any of you Southcape owners?


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## NEVMSLLC

Actually, it's a unit in Condo II.


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Actually, it's a unit in Condo II.



Cliff,

Since your still reading posts in thread, can you answer the following:

How does it benefits SC owners to have funds from the special assessment improve NEVS inventory of weeks?

Does the amount of property still under SC control allow 132 units to be built? 

Thanks


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## NEVMSLLC

Less than 5% of NEVS inventory is located in the 24 units that are being completely renovated.  That doesn't benefit NEVS at all.  There are no plans to renovate the units where NEVS owns the majority of its week. We're doing it because the resort needs it and it will benefit all of the owners.  Frankly, it's the right thing to do.

To the second question, the answer is no.  The former developers did not pay taxes on the additional land and the land was taken by the town for back taxes.  Part of that land includes the parking area by the clubhouse and tennis courts.  Southcape owners have lost that land as well. The town put up chains to prevent owners and guests from using that parking area and none of the owners got upset about that.  The town refused to negotiate with the former developers.  I have an agreement in principle with the town that will guarantee Southcape owners and guests to use the parking area in perpetuity.  I hope to have it formalized before the annual meeting.  Funny, how no one ever got mad at the former developers . . .


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## Sanford

Cliff,
I really don't think ANYBODY would be mad or be questioning save:
1) The appearance of inappropriateness of OUTFIELD being Trustees and lack of clarity as to their roles and motivations and also their marketing efforts solely focused on converting deeded owners to Festiva Points ( WHY?)
2) The lack of clarity of the role and relationship of Festiva and the appearance of a clever subtrafuge and takeover of the TS.
3) The appearance of an insecure future for existing deeded owners in the event their Ts' are taken away from them as Festiva and Outfield manuever things for SOMEONE's obvious gain ( other than the righful existing owners)
4) The lack of full disclosure of all the interwoven aspects of these relationships between NEVS, Outfield, Festiva and the true agenda, none of which has been disclosed as all Contracts are being touted as "classified" 
5) festiva's purported track record at other TShares and the result to the deeded owners who watched as Festiva got increased control and maintenance fees were raised beyond others ability to pay, this Festiva took over...
etc etc etc.
S


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## wmauryd

*whole ownership*

You are proposing converting the resort from a timeshare to a condominium-- Separate ownership of each unit-- Do I have it right?



e.bram said:


> Each unit wholly owned.
> Yes not a TS


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi Sanford

I try the best I can to explain things but there are some things I simply cannot discuss, particularly in a public forum.  My track record is easy to trace with a simple Google search on my name and you can find out my history and what I believe in.  If people chose to think I'm lying for some reason, I can't do anything about that.  I'm not, but I also can't prove a negative.

1. Why would it be inappropriate for a member of one of the top sales and marketing organizations in the country to be a board member of a resort that desperately needs sales and marketing?  We have NEVS inventory and delinquent inventory that has to be sold and will be sold.  I would hope that Southcape owners would feel comforted knowing that there are true professionals involved.  

2.  There is no role for Festiva other than as an exchange company.  There are protections in place to prevent what happened at other resorts I just can't discuss an agreement that has a confidentiality clause.

3.  No one is taking anyone's timeshare away.  Owners who join Festiva deed their weeks to Festiva because they believe that the Festiva points program will benefit them.  No one has to or is being forced to join Festiva (or RCI or II for that matter).   The gains are obvious.  Festiva gets new members and access for their members to a beautiful resort on Cape Cod.  Outfield gets a commission for handling sales.  NEVS makes money by selling the weeks they have purchased.  The resort benefits by generating more maintenance fee income.  Everyone wins.

4.  There is no lack of full disclosure, that's why I'm here to answer questions.  I can't give legal opinions unlike other posters on this site.  It's called the unauthorized practice of law and it's a crime.  I can't comment on or publish contracts that have confidentiality clauses.  Festiva is independent and has no interest in NEVS or Outfield.  NEVS has no interest in Festiva or Outfield.  Outfield has no interest in Festiva but does have an interest in NEVS.  

The true agendas are also simple.  Festiva wants a Cape Cod resort for their members and to have new members.  Outfield wants to sell the NEVS and delinquent weeks.  NEVS wants to sell its weeks.  I want to manage the property for the benefit of all the owners.  There really is no conspiracy, hidden agenda or other scheme.  If all parties do the best things they can to benefit the resort as a whole, all will make money, including the resort.  The owners will have a fully renovated resort, little or no delinquency, a modern management system, fully subscribed maintenance fees and financial stability.  

5.  Festiva didn't raise maintenance fees, I recommended them and the board approved.  The resort has been running at an operating deficit for years with virtually no reserves and to allow that situation to continue would have been financially irresponsible.  The special assessment was recommended by me and approved by the board.  Come to the resort and see the problems that were never addressed first hand.  I'd love to show any owner around so they can see for themselves.  A full presentation will be made at the annual meeting.  What happened with Festiva at other resorts is not happening at Southcape.  Period.


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## e.bram

Only 8(maybe only 7)weeks have any value on Cape Cod. Who is going to buy the off season weeks. I don't care how good a sales and marketing team Oldfield has, they ain't going to sell. You can't even give them away(oceanfront like Surfside included). As wholly owned condos the units are salable. I think the ploy is to get control of the TS, hike the MFs so more owners walk away till the TS becomes financially unstable and sell if off as condo units. The TS is like GM, only I don't think the Fed id going to bail them out. Converting to points is just throwing good money after bad. The Cape is dead outside of prime summer except for residents and summer homes. As a condo the MFs would probably be 1/3 the present MFs and make units very attractive as vacation homes.


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## NEVMSLLC

Again, not true e.bram

I've been doing timeshare resales on Cape Cod and new England for 17 years.  I sell off season weeks all the time.  I used to sell at Oceancliff where you own and I sold blue offseason weeks starting at $1,995 and I sold hundreds of them.  I sold two offseason weeks at Brewster Green already this week and three at the Ponds at Foxhollow in the Berkshires.  Did you like what happened to Oceancliff after I sold all of the association weeks and the board thought they didn't need sales anymore?  Did you like the special assessment you had a few years ago?  Do you know how many delinquent owners your resort has now that I'm not there to sell for them anymore?  Last I knew it was over 800 weeks not paying maintenance fees.  How much does that cost you?  $500,000 a year?  I'm not going to let that happen at Southcape.

Maybe Surfside could use me as well . . . 

I know all three of your resorts very well and could tell you about similar problems at resorts all over New England because they don't have anyone to do sales and marketing.  Care to ask where Brewster Green was before they brought in professional management and me to do resales?

Whole ownership condos at Southcape is simply never going to happen.  The economics don't justify it.

Cliff


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## e.bram

I am happy I don't own Southcape. You owners are in trouble.


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## Sou13

*Found elsewhere on TUG*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Again, not true e.bram
> 
> I've been doing timeshare resales on Cape Cod and new England for 17 years.  I sell off season weeks all the time.  I used to sell at Oceancliff where you own and I sold blue offseason weeks starting at $1,995 and I sold hundreds of them.  I sold two offseason weeks at Brewster Green already this week and three at the Ponds at Foxhollow in the Berkshires.  Did you like what happened to Oceancliff after I sold all of the association weeks and the board thought they didn't need sales anymore?  Did you like the special assessment you had a few years ago?  Do you know how many delinquent owners your resort has now that I'm not there to sell for them anymore?  Last I knew it was over 800 weeks not paying maintenance fees.  How much does that cost you?  $500,000 a year?  I'm not going to let that happen at Southcape.
> 
> Maybe Surfside could use me as well . . .
> 
> I know all three of your resorts very well and could tell you about similar problems at resorts all over New England because they don't have anyone to do sales and marketing.  Care to ask where Brewster Green was before they brought in professional management and me to do resales?
> 
> Whole ownership condos at Southcape is simply never going to happen.  The economics don't justify it.
> 
> Cliff



Here's what one resort is doing about defaulted weeks:



> At one of the timeshares I own, defaulted and unsold weeks are offered to owners as bonus time for the cost of MF +taxes and a $5 fee. These weeks are only available to owners, not deposited into the exchange companie pools. The program has been so successful that the HOA voted to reduce the reservation period to only 6 months out instead of the previous 12 months. All fees are paid upfront, use is weekly only and there is NO cancelation refunds. Bonus time is also available up to the day of usage with a 2 night minimum for a cost of 1/7th mf per nite. We have taken advantage of many extra vacation weeks (and a few nights booked for friends & relatives to join us) using this bonus time without actually buying more weeks and locking ourselves into future MF each year. All HOA should offer this kind of program to their owners. It's a win/win for owners & the resort treasury.
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90757&highlight=Festiva
> February 7, 2009, 05:32 PM    #12
> barndweller
> TUG Member



Not that I'm suggesting it would work for Southcape, but the resort does offer rentals for a minumum two-night stay.  My daughter and her friends used to do this every January.

I've been sounding the alarm about what's going on at Southcape because I was contacted by a telemarketer who wanted to make an appointment for Outfield Marketing to meet me in my home to "explain the changes" now that Southcape has been "sold"!

If Outfield Marketing is working for Southcape, why can't they come to my home to offer me one of those unsold NEVS weeks?  According to FestivaRep, Outfield Marketing has a contract with Festiva to sell deeded timeshare owners "conversions" to Festiva points, and if we want to buy points without "converting" our deeds we have to go to an office in Maine!

Again, why can't we meet with a sales rep in our homes to buy points without converting our deeds?

I've posted a private exchange with a satisfied FAC member who has actually stayed at only one Festiva Resort and has done all his exchanges through Interval International.  He attended a sales meeting while staying at the Church Street Inn and was offered bonus points the first year!  

At Southcape Resort we have had the choice of II or RCI depending upon whether we were buying weeks in Condo I or Condo II.  Has that changed?  Joining either exchange club is optional, but it's in addition to, not instead of, owning a deeded week.  We don't have the option of joining the Festiva Adventure Club without "converting" our deeded weeks to Festiva "points" . . . truth or "untruth"?


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## NEVMSLLC

The type of program of offering association owned weeks to owners either for exchange or a reduced rental works for some resorts that do not have a lot of inventory and owns weeks in high demand time periods.  The problem is what happens if the association has a lot of weeks that no one wants?  What happens when the resort has more weeks than there is demand?

If the goal is to generate maintenance fees for each week, then the obvious answer is to have someone own every week.  With that program, there is no guarantee of income or even demand.  Inn addition, it makes a resale program almost impossible.  Why would an owner purchase a week if they can just use one anytime they want?

I've worked with this program at several resorts and have lots of documentation to back up my claim.  In every case, when the resort realizes the harm that can come from that type of program, they've eliminated it.  I would put a caveat in there.  A resort should only abandon that program if there is another way to replace non-performing owners with maintenance fee paying owners.  In the absence of a good sales program, it can be an effective way of generating income for the resort.

Your last paragraph is "truth".  If an owner decides to join Festiva, they will deed their week to Festiva in return for points.


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## Sou13

*Did I recommend it?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> The type of program of offering association owned weeks to owners either for exchange or a reduced rental works for some resorts that do not have a lot of inventory and owns weeks in high demand time periods.  The problem is what happens if the association has a lot of weeks that no one wants?  What happens when the resort has more weeks than there is demand?
> 
> If the goal is to generate maintenance fees for each week, then the obvious answer is to have someone own every week.  With that program, there is no guarantee of income or even demand.  Inn addition, it makes a resale program almost impossible.  Why would an owner purchase a week if they can just use one anytime they want?
> 
> I've worked with this program at several resorts and have lots of documentation to back up my claim.  In every case, when the resort realizes the harm that can come from that type of program, they've eliminated it.  I would put a caveat in there.  A resort should only abandon that program if there is another way to replace non-performing owners with maintenance fee paying owners.  In the absence of a good sales program, it can be an effective way of generating income for the resort.
> 
> Your last paragraph is "truth".  If an owner decides to join Festiva, they will deed their week to Festiva in return for points.



And I didn't recommend it, did I?  





> Not that I'm suggesting it would work for Southcape, but the resort does offer rentals for a minumum two-night stay. My daughter and her friends used to do this every January.



How could we have rental income if there were no available weeks?  

I'm not even advocating total owner control of Southcape.  We owners don't know enough about the business to be attempting to manage it ourselves.

What worries me is that there are two Outfield Marketing "principals" on the Board of Trustees.  One of the seats on the Board should be occupied by a Southcape interval owner if my understanding of the bylaws is correct.  It might not get us anywhere but to have more of a say on behalf or owners, even it the "Declarant's Director" controls 67% of the vote.

Nor am I volunteering for the position, only hoping to see this on the agenda for the annual meeting and hoping there is a deeded owner somewhere closer to Mashpee who is willing to volunteer for this position.

According to FestivaRep, the Festiva "trust" gets one vote for each Southcape owner who "converts" to Festiva "points" and pays the $595+400 for each deed in the trust.  That gives one vote to the trust for every deeded owner who gets "scared" (I'll tell you how that one works when I see you May 16) into converting by an Outfield Marketing sales rep.  Festiva could easily get that 3rd seat on the Board . . . truth or "untruth"?

If there are only 1600+ MF-paying deeded owners (including FAC members), 1600+500 does not add up to 51x55 (55 unitsx51 weeks).  You do the math.  Are the remaining weeks delinquent?  Will they be repossessed and offered for sale?

According to the outdated Master Deed, if there is an available unit prior to a "float" week owner's week the float week owner should be able to extend the stay by paying rent for no less than two(?)* nights.  Is this happening and if not, why not?

*I doublechecked the deed on this one and found (BOOK 3526 page094ff) that there is no minimum stay, only a maximum of 7 days.  This means that if the six days prior to a reserved 7 or 3 days are not reserved, the float week owner can add as much as a week to the interval by paying a per diem charge for those bonus days.


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## NEVMSLLC

LOL, no you didn't recommend it and I even said it can be a good idea!

There will be no elections at the annual meeting as no election is called for.  If Festiva had all of the owners votes, they could still not obtain a seat on the board.  For the same reason.  I know you've read the documents and the same reasons that preclude owner representatives on the board at the current time, also prevent Festiva.

As to your question about floating time, I have instituted a resort policy that we try to accommodate owners whenever and wherever possible.  We do a number of things that aren't even addressed in the documents.  We do explain to the owner that we are making an exception but we tell them that, as the resort gets sold out, we will probably not be able to continue making exceptions.  It is not a right that they may always have.  We will do things for owners when we can.  My belief is that it helps the owners and it helps the resort so why not do it?


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> What happens when the resort has more weeks than there is demand?



There are many ways to handle this problem - a lottery for one.



NEVMSLLC said:


> In addition, it makes a resale program almost impossible.  Why would an owner purchase a week if they can just use one anytime they want?



This makes it sound like a resale program is built on existing owners, not bringing in new owners. Hope, I mis-understood. 



NEVMSLLC said:


> In every case, when the resort realizes the harm that can come from that type of program, they've eliminated it.



In terms of "harm" - do you mean that the resale program is ineffective, or something else?

I think Sou13 is suggesting an alternative that would enhance owner value at SC, and in turn making it more attractive to own at SC. Most timeshare systems (VRI, Wyndham, Worldmark), have some type of similar program. The basic premise is that no unit should sit empty. This way at least some revenue is coming in, and it makes it more attractive to own at that resort.


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> For the same reason.  I know you've read the documents and the same reasons that preclude owner representatives on the board at the current time, also prevent Festiva.



Cliff,

If you wanted to have owner representation on the board, are you saying that you could not make that happen? Is it unreasonable to suggest that owners need to be represented and have a voice in economic decisions that directly affect them?

Can you describe the point in time that you do see owner representation on the board - short of 100% of the weeks being sold?

And it not clear that even then owner representation would be required. Most of the documents focus on the 132 units being built, which you have established is not possible.

Thanks


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## NEVMSLLC

Hi eric

Again, I'm answering questions from someone who is not an owner but I think the issues are important for all Southcape owners to understand so I'll try my best.

A lottery won't work.  Tried it.  Ebay won't work. Tried it.  Giving them away won't work.  Tried it.  when I first began a resale program at the Oceancliff in Newport, RI, the board was trying to sell association owned summer weeks for $800 and hadn't been able to sell any of them.  Why would they?  Owners had paid well over $10,000 when they bought in the 1980's.  The first thing I did was raise the price to $8,000.  If you bought anything for $12,000 and I told you that you could now buy another one for $800, how would you feel?  Right, you were a sucker to buy the first one and you're not going to make that mistake again!  If I told you that the resort had taken a week back from a delinquent owner and was offering it at only $8,000 because we want someone to pay the maintenance fee, there's a much better chance you'd snap it up because now you can own two at an average price of only $10,000 instead of the $12,000 you'd paid.  i sold all the summer weeks in less than 90 days.

A good resale program happens on site at the resort.  The internet doesn't work, advertising doesn't work and most everything else doesn't work either.  I may be the country's leading authority in timeshare resales.  Check me out on the internet with a Google search.  At resort after resort, our sales breakdown pretty much like this.  60% to existing owners and owner referrals, 20% to exchangers, 10% to renters and about 10% from miscellaneous sources.

The harm comes from when I ask an owner to buy another week for let's say $10,000 and they say why should I do that when I can use one anytime i want for just the maintenance fee??  Why would anyone buy another week under those circumstances.  It kills a resale program.

I agree that no unit should sit empty and that's why we work very hard to increase rentals because those renters become a sales opportunity if they like the resort.

VRI, Wyndham and Worldmark (among others) do offer this type of program.  VRI has been trying to do a resale program at their resorts for over twenty years and still doesn't have a successful one.  There's a reason why, at one time or another, VRI brought my company in to do resale programs at all of their resorts in New England.  That's also why, at one point, VRI tried to buy my company.  VRI is a very good management company, they just don't understand sales.  I still work closely with VRI.  At one resort where they don't offer that bonus program, I've kept the resort over 98% sold out every year since 1996.  At another, I sell over 150 association owned delinquent weeks every year. 

In a healthy resort, income comes from maintenance fees and rentals to outside prospects who might become an owner, not from renting inventory to existing owners at a discount.  That's a closed system that eventually deteriorates.

As Sou13 will tell you, I am in the process of setting up an owner advisory board that will consist of individual unit owners.  I don't know of a single developer anywhere that has anything like this at all.  I means a lot more work for me but I think it's worth it.  I have a list of potential volunteers and I will finalize the board after the annual meeting when I know who is interested in serving.  This board will serve several functions.  They will act as a "phantom" board and be involved in providing input into all decisions at Southcape.  When the time comes to turn over the board to the owners, we will have a group of experienced volunteers who will be available to stand for election.  They will know the resort, the process, the problems, the solutions and will hopefully continue the work we've begun in making Southcape the best resort possible.  My hope is that, if I've done a good job, they'll keep me.  If I haven't, they should throw me out.  Now there's an incentive - I like my job!


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> When the time comes to turn over the board to the owners, we will have a group of experienced volunteers who will be available to stand for election.



Cliff,

I'll ask the question again - when will that time come and what would trigger it?

And while I certainly applaude the fact that you want owner input and are taking steps to do that, I think you recognize that most developers do not need an owners advisory board. They have owners on the board, or owner controlled boards. Owners empowered to actually make decisions, not merely provide advice. 

In most resorts, it is the managing entity that advises the board, and the owners on the board make the decisions.  Not the other way around.

And I will have to give you credit, if you can sell someone something for $8k that they could have bought a few weeks earilier for $800, then you are truely a great sales person. And thanks for the background on the correlation between price and perceived value.

I'll leave it to Sou13 to comment on rentals to owners being a closed system. I did not read that it would work that way.


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## ClamsCasino

*Southcape Update*

Cliff,

1.  When will the new Southcape Resort website be ready?
2.  Why are prospective owners via the website directed to call Greg Hughes from Outfield rather than IVS to purchase a deeded week?  Will Greg be offering deeded week interval or only pushing Festiva points?
3.  Have you considered implementing a referral fee for any current owners that refer a new Southcape owner?


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## NEVMSLLC

Again, I'll answer this question because it's important to Southcape owners.

The simple answer is, we're still seeking legal opinion on that.  The problem is that there are multiple properties involved, multiple Master Deeds, multiple Timeshare Supplements, multiple Declarations and Covenants, multiple Trusts, at least one Corporation and conflicting state laws!!!  They are not consistent.  The quotes I've seen on here are only from one document out of dozens. 

Everyone seems to agree that now is not the time but when the actual time happens depends on which documents you are reading.  This is one of the main reasons why I cannot offer or relate legal opinions.  The time will come but I cannot tell as yet when that will be.  That's why I want to be prepared with an advisory board so we don't all of a sudden have an entire board of new people.  I've been that route and would not want to go there again.  At one resort i worked with, it actually led to a fist fight between an owner and newly elected board member at an annual meeting.  The police were called, three people were arrested and a good time was had by all.

I guess what bothers me most is the assumption that what I am doing, NEVS is doing and Outfield is doing is automatically wrong and not in the best interests of all the owners without a single shred of evidence to support the claim.  I won't comment on what was going on before I became involved but, good heavens, we're the first ones to try an fix things in twenty years.  I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but at least here, and with my conversation with owners, I have an opportunity to tell people the truth about what's going one and to get their input as well.  For that, I'm grateful.

It's all good, Eric.

Cliff


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## NEVMSLLC

Ouch, the website is a sore subject with me.  The problem with the website is that we've ordered a new computer system that will allow us to publish rental inventory in real time on the internet, both through our own site and travel related sites such as Orbitz, Travelocity, Expedia, etc.  The data we inherited from the "old regime" is such a mess that we've been working on it for months to clean it up.  At the moment, we expect the conversion to be completed within the next week or so, training to start the middle of April and final design approval on the website in April as well.  I'm using a whip and chair on everyone to have things up and running by the annual meeting.  I had thought we'd have one done by December.  It reminds me of the old story of how do you make God laugh?  You tell him your plans . . . 

IVS cannot sell weeks as we still represent some individual owners who have listed their weeks for sale with us.  For IVS to represent those owners and NEVS would be a clear conflict of interest and so I won't do it.  Greg will be back in April and he will be offering both Festiva points and Southcape weeks depending on what will work best for the individual buyer.  The idea that only Festiva points will be offered is simply incorrect.  

I know referral fees are commonly offered but they are prohibited unless the referring owner is a licensed real estate broker.  Real estate companies are not supposed to offer compensation to anyone other than a licensed broker.  In my experience, by explaining to the owners the obvious advantages of referring family and friends and appealing to their own enlightened self interest, we've had plenty of referrals.

How much do you want?  

Cliff


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but at least here, and with my conversation with owners, I have an opportunity to tell people the truth about what's going one and to get their input as well.  For that, I'm grateful.



And likewise we are grateful for your honest answers. The process can be trying at times, but I give you high marks for participating. Time will tell, but I think you started out on the right foot.



NEVMSLLC said:


> I guess what bothers me most is the assumption that what I am doing, NEVS is doing and Outfield is doing is automatically wrong and not in the best interests of all the owners without a single shred of evidence to support the claim.



Regarding NEVS, I do not have that assumption, hence my pointed questions on your intentions. I think you understand how NEVS not paying m/f for their inventory is unequitable. You have a lot of power in the current situation, but how you use it will be the true test.

Regarding Outfield, I would suggest re-reading some of the posts regarding them. The evidence presented here suggests that they are using fear tactics to convince SC owners to convert to Festiva. Suggesting that the resort is about to be hit by huge assessments that they can avoid by converting to Festiva does not help your cause, nor the sales of NEVS inventory. That is a seperate topic, and you there is some guilt by association.



NEVMSLLC said:


> Again, I'll answer this question because it's important to Southcape owners.



I've ignored the cavet for a while. You clearly can choose who to respond to, but this is a public forum. I would suggest that a private venue is appropriate if you only want a particular group to participate.



NEVMSLLC said:


> It's all good, Eric.
> Cliff



I agree - it is for now. Hope it stays that way.


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## Sou13

*Don't go away, you haven't addressed all of my concerns!*

I've raised a lot of concerns that haven't been addressed.  Where to begin?

Let's begin with the Board of Trustees.  Show me the BOOK and PAGE to back up your contention that presently there is no need for an election because presently owners have no right to a seat on the Board.

Oh, and please don't pull a fast one by doing away with the link.  I've downloaded my copy and hope everyone reading this has done so as well.  But it makes it so much easier to open it and refer to it without having to bring it with me everytime I log on.

Did I put my money on Michigan State for nothing?  You can post here while your girlfriend is preparing dinner!


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## NEVMSLLC

Sorry Sou13, I've told you that I won't and can't comment on legal matters and that includes referring you to sections in legal documents.  As my attorney would say, the documents speak for themselves.

I also don't appreciate your implication that I might "pull a fast one".  I've referred owners with questions to that site, that's why the site is there.

Finally, I'm glad you picked Michigan State, just remember who told you and yes, I do accept gratuities.

Finally, your comments about my girlfriend and my wife are out of line.  Sandcastle was my ex-wife's favorite resort and the post you are referring to is years old.  I am now divorced and I do have a girlfriend and that's the last I'll say about my personal life.


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## Sou13

*Tune in tomorrow*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Sorry Sou13, I've told you that I won't and can't comment on legal matters and that includes referring you to sections in legal documents.  As my attorney would say, the documents speak for themselves.
> 
> I also don't appreciate your implication that I might "pull a fast one".  I've referred owners with questions to that site, that's why the site is there.
> 
> Finally, I'm glad you picked Michigan State, just remember who told you and yes, I do accept gratuities.
> 
> Finally, your comments about my girlfriend and my wife are out of line.  Sandcastle was my ex-wife's favorite resort and the post you are referring to is years old.  I am now divorced and I do have a girlfriend and that's the last I'll say about my personal life.



Then the new web page will include the link to the outdated Master Deed?

I didn't bet on Michigan State, only hoped that you wouldn't have to prepare dinner for the whole month!

The comment on the "girlfriend" may have been out of line, it was meant to point out that (years ago?) your "wife's" favorite resort was Sandcastle, but didn't exclude the possibility that Southcape is yours?

I'll have to wait until tomorrow to look up the BOOK and PAGE that gave me the impression that owners should by now have a right to one seat on the Board.  I have to catch a bus home in time to see who gets booted off Dancing With the Stars.  That's *my* exciting personal life .


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## NEVMSLLC

Have fun, Sou13.  I hope it's one of the Steve's!!


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## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> I'll have to wait until tomorrow to look up the BOOK and PAGE that gave me the impression that owners should by now have a right to one seat on the Board.



Sou13 - check Book 3526, Page 112, Article III, Section 3.1, paragraph c.  I cannot tell you what it says, as that might be a crime.  


And Cliff, do you really expect us to believe that you made this sizeable investment without knowing anything about what you were buying. Give us more credit than that.

 No one is asking for a legal opinion.


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## NEVMSLLC

Believe me, Eric, I know exactly what I'm doing.

Sou13 was asking me to point to a specific section in one specific legal document wherein certain legal rights might identified.  Please refer to my previous post and understand that there is no single controlling document.  Had I referred her to a specific section, it might be construed that I am implying that that section is the controlling one and I won't get into that situation.  She has access to the documents just as I do.  If she wants a legal opinion, she certainly has the right to hire her own attorney who will, I'm sure, advise her.  In the alternative, she can read the documents just as I have done and come to her own conclusions.  For me to do anything more might be the unauthorized practice of law and that is still a crime.  You are absolutely correct in pointing that out and that's why I won't do what you just did and what Sou13 has done.

I won't dodge any issue or question other than those of a legal nature.  I've stated that from the beginning and my position has not and will not change.


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Please refer to my previous post and understand that there is no single controlling document.



Is this statement not a legal opinion .... ie. that there is no single controlling document. And you know the fallacy of that statement. 

And trust me, I do believe you know exactly what you are doing. You would not have made that investment without knowing the legal basis of your control. No single controlling document would leave the issue of your control up in the air. Not a sound business decision. And I sense you do not leave things to chance.

And you know I am not interpreting the law, or giving legal advice. She asked what part of the document pertained to owners electing a trustee.

It sounds like you are attempting to discourage owners from reading the by-laws and discussing the contents. For if one was to say to another, look at section IV, they would be committing a crime.

As a lawyer who sent me a PM about this thread said - quit trying to hide behind the law.


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## NEVMSLLC

If I were attempting to discourage owners from reading the by-laws, why would I publish them on the internet and make them available to any *owner* who asks for them??


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> If I were attempting to discourage owners from reading the by-laws, why would I publish them on the internet and make them available to any *owner* who asks for them??



No. I give you points for that. But since you have brought up the "unauthorized practice of the law" issue multiple times, it appears that you want to discourage owners from talking about them.

But I also know that everything in business is done for a purpose. It serves your purpose to some extent or it would not have been done.

ps. love the highlight on owner. Think I will start doing that for *DEVELOPER*.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

LOL, Eric,works for me!  I'm not trying to discourage owners from talking about anything.  I'm just not going to do it. 

The unauthorized practice of law issue is one I take very seriously.  If others don't, that's not my problem.


----------



## e.bram

What is illegal about discussing a legal document between two persons. It is only illegal for a non lawyer to REPRESENT a person in a legal a legal matter and be paid for it. Discussions by two or more persons is not illegal.
Selling an winter inland Cape Cod TS for $8000.00???. It is easier to walk on water!!!


----------



## Carolinian

A number of the resorts on the OBX require owners to vote on the resort budget which includes m/f and on any special assessment.  That is the best protection members can have.  Indeed, at one resort a few years ago, a member thought the board was being too conservative, and made a motion to increase the m/f with the money going into reserves. The motion passed overwhelmingly.

Having management, developer, or sales represented on the board is a huge conflict of interest.  Management and sales are hired help and should not be approving their own recommendations





NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Sanford
> 
> I try the best I can to explain things but there are some things I simply cannot discuss, particularly in a public forum.  My track record is easy to trace with a simple Google search on my name and you can find out my history and what I believe in.  If people chose to think I'm lying for some reason, I can't do anything about that.  I'm not, but I also can't prove a negative.
> 
> 1. Why would it be inappropriate for a member of one of the top sales and marketing organizations in the country to be a board member of a resort that desperately needs sales and marketing?  We have NEVS inventory and delinquent inventory that has to be sold and will be sold.  I would hope that Southcape owners would feel comforted knowing that there are true professionals involved.
> 
> 2.  There is no role for Festiva other than as an exchange company.  There are protections in place to prevent what happened at other resorts I just can't discuss an agreement that has a confidentiality clause.
> 
> 3.  No one is taking anyone's timeshare away.  Owners who join Festiva deed their weeks to Festiva because they believe that the Festiva points program will benefit them.  No one has to or is being forced to join Festiva (or RCI or II for that matter).   The gains are obvious.  Festiva gets new members and access for their members to a beautiful resort on Cape Cod.  Outfield gets a commission for handling sales.  NEVS makes money by selling the weeks they have purchased.  The resort benefits by generating more maintenance fee income.  Everyone wins.
> 
> 4.  There is no lack of full disclosure, that's why I'm here to answer questions.  I can't give legal opinions unlike other posters on this site.  It's called the unauthorized practice of law and it's a crime.  I can't comment on or publish contracts that have confidentiality clauses.  Festiva is independent and has no interest in NEVS or Outfield.  NEVS has no interest in Festiva or Outfield.  Outfield has no interest in Festiva but does have an interest in NEVS.
> 
> The true agendas are also simple.  Festiva wants a Cape Cod resort for their members and to have new members.  Outfield wants to sell the NEVS and delinquent weeks.  NEVS wants to sell its weeks.  I want to manage the property for the benefit of all the owners.  There really is no conspiracy, hidden agenda or other scheme.  If all parties do the best things they can to benefit the resort as a whole, all will make money, including the resort.  The owners will have a fully renovated resort, little or no delinquency, a modern management system, fully subscribed maintenance fees and financial stability.
> 
> 5.  Festiva didn't raise maintenance fees, I recommended them and the board approved.  The resort has been running at an operating deficit for years with virtually no reserves and to allow that situation to continue would have been financially irresponsible.  The special assessment was recommended by me and approved by the board.  Come to the resort and see the problems that were never addressed first hand.  I'd love to show any owner around so they can see for themselves.  A full presentation will be made at the annual meeting.  What happened with Festiva at other resorts is not happening at Southcape.  Period.


----------



## Carolinian

Sou13 said:


> I've raised a lot of concerns that haven't been addressed.  Where to begin?
> 
> Let's begin with the Board of Trustees.  Show me the BOOK and PAGE to back up your contention that presently there is no need for an election because presently owners have no right to a seat on the Board.
> 
> Oh, and please don't pull a fast one by doing away with the link.  I've downloaded my copy and hope everyone reading this has done so as well.  But it makes it so much easier to open it and refer to it without having to bring it with me everytime I log on.
> 
> Did I put my money on Michigan State for nothing?  You can post here while your girlfriend is preparing dinner!



Resorts where the HOA board is not turned over to owners are ones I avoid like the plague.  Owners SHOULD be in control.  Too often developers and subsequent developers wear out their welcome by trying to hang on forever.  At four resorts I have owned at, three in NC and one overseas, the members had to band together and push the developer out.  At one, the battle went all the way to the state Supreme Court, but members won at every level.  The financial situation at all of those resorts improved substantially after a member-elected board took over.


----------



## Carolinian

You need to form a concerned owners group and elect officers.  There are resorts in the UK where governing documents give owners no power but the owners have formed associations to push for things that will benefit owners. Such a group hopefully will find a way to end this developer dictatorship.




ecwinch said:


> Sou13 - I think you are on the right track. The way the documents are structured, NEVS might never give up control of the resort.
> 
> If you refer to Article V, Section 2.a, you will see that NEVS will retain at 51% of the control until all 132 units are constructed. If I understood the previous post about the township seizing some lots, is it even possible for SC to build 132 units?
> 
> And given what I have read in the Sandcastle thread, I see a number of similarities. I particularly like the comments that their is no reason for the HOA to form, since the trust is still under developer control and they would have nothing to vote on.
> 
> One have to wonder if there is not a pattern here that NEVS is exploiting - i.e. take over incomplete resorts that are still under developer control, and have owners pay to improve the property.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Eric

Two people can discuss legal issues, but they cannot discuss them in a public forum with third parties.  Problem is, far more than that has been going on here. Opinions on legal documents have been offered by non-lawyers to an entire group.  Legal conclusions have been drawn by non-lawyers and published to the group.  Actions based on non-lawyer interpretations of the documents have been urged.

How about the fact that I sell delinquent weeks at Brewster Green as high as $18,000 and the Ponds at Foxhollow as high as $22,000?  I say again, maybe I could benefit your resorts as well?  

Cliff

BTW, I keep seeing posts by non-southcape owners.  Are there any actual owners that have a question?


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## e.bram

NEVMSLLC:
Representation is the issue not discussion. Polititions discuss legal issues all the time in front of large groups, no problem. Also inteview and talk radio and television shows do it too. 
Obferscation(sp?) and opaqueness is the issue here for non conmunication.


----------



## Fig

*Outfield Marketing*



NEVMSLLC said:


> I guess what bothers me most is the assumption that what I am doing, NEVS is doing and *Outfield* is doing is automatically wrong and not in the best interests of all the owners without a single shred of evidence to support the claim.
> Cliff



I didn't have to look too far to find references to Outfield Marketing and why people might have issues with their practices.

This is a restort manager commenting on Outfield on no less than than the home page of the resort website who felt the need to bold her comments.

"From the Management Office....the sales staff of Outfield Marketing who have made some false statements about Peppertree Maggie Valley during the sales presentation. Two of the statements being made are that “Peppertree Maggie Valley is not in good financial condition” and that “Peppertree Maggie Valley is going to go out of business” if the owners do not convert their week to the Festiva Adventure Club. *These statements simply are not true. *Peppertree Maggie Valley is in excellent financial health and is not in any danger of going out of business."

http://www.peppertreemv.com/owner.htm

More info from other forums documenting Outfield reps statements:

"Within the next few years Outfield Marketing will work with Festiva and would convert all of the Festiva resorts to the point system. “100%”

http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...10-festiva-goes-points-charges-thousands.html

And another forum:

"He talked to us like we were stupid. He pretty much told us our maintenance fees would go up to over 2000.00 if we stay where we are and pretty much called us stupid for doing so!!!!! He was very rude and aggravated with us and kept trying to sell his point and pointing out he does not get a commission but is doing this for us so we can save money. My husband had to ask him to leave our home for he was getting out of hand!!!!!"

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...e_Vac_Club_Any_feedback-Branson_Missouri.html


I'll stop here at one resort and two major forums outside of TUG. A few bad apples? Hmm....


----------



## wmauryd

*Cape Cod inland, Cape Cod off-season, recreationally deprived*

I would agree with E.Bram that there's a premium on oceanfront and also summer season. The resale and rental pricing drops for the fall, winter and spring seasons.  I can't help wonder what the occupancy and rental stats are at Southcape for those three seasons. It can't be zero occupancy, so it must be partial occupancy. And if its partial occupancy, then is it cost effective to for the resort to remain open year-round? And why are renters and owners  coming? Is there enough financial ballast to float the resort's budget? There's probably mixed views but it would be interesting to see the numbers.

But I disagree about inland resorts having no appeal. Of all the Cape timeshare resorts, the three in Mashpee are by far the most heavily surrounded by forest and conservation land. A fourth resort, Brewster Green, is walking distance to Nickerson Park, with one-of-kind bike and walking paths through pine forests. All four of these inland resorts have hiking trails just outside ones door, with many more a short drive away.  For canoes and kayaks, Southcape is in close proximity to fabulous waterways including Popponesset Bay and Mashee River, Child's River and Waquoit Bay. You could market the resort just to kayakers. Southcape has, by far,  the best grocery and mall shopping on the Cape-- Roche Brothers and Mashpee Commons.  

It may be true that the Cape has oceanfront resorts, but I wouldn't shout too loud about it. If I'm correct, all of the oceanfront resorts have floor plans this size a small studio apartment. Southcape's units have full kitchens and three times the square footage of these motel-conversion resorts dotting Vineyard and Nantucket Sound. When you're bringing kids, it's nice to arrive and have that extra space, full kitchen, and extra baths that SC offers. 

The real trajedy of one particular US president serving in the early 60's, with his Hyannis compound not quite on the Atlantic or bay front, was that he was recreationally deprived, and he knew it. So when he signed CCNS into existence, he did the right thing for his countrymen by including the Atlantic coastal shore within park boundaries. He left Nantucket Sound and Vineyard Sound shorefront out of the park boundaries, because  we all agree they are not National Seashore material, leaving these areas to timeshare developers and others.  He certainly didn't make Hyannis into national park status. And with global sea levels slowly rising and redrawing coastal areas, the resorts on these shores could become valuable locations for boat moorings and lobster traps. This process may be happening sooner than we want it to.

I don't mean to knock E.Bram's resort in Falmouth-- It appears to have water front on both sides-- I can think of worse places to be. But staying among Cape Cod's breezy forests is not all that bad either.


----------



## Sou13

*You should be writing for the Southcape homepage!*



wmauryd said:


> I don't mean to knock E.Bram's resort in Falmouth-- It appears to have water front on both sides-- I can think of worse places to be. But staying among Cape Cod's breezy forests is not all that bad either.



Wow!  You found even more things to love about Southcape Resort than I have in nearly a quarter of a century, and you're posting from California!

When I visited Southcape Resort for the first time back in the 80s when Condo I was still in development and the first three units were demo units, I fell in love with the place.  Over the years I worried about those pinewoods being developed but was reassured that they were protected.

For reasons that Developer Hagberg speculated over the telephone with me, Barth and Woods never sold out their inventory because they didn't want to give up control of the Resort.  Truth or "untruth"?

BTW the reason "Cliff" refers to me as "she" is that he knows who I am and *why* I am so concerned about the presence of Outfield Marketing in the marketing plan at Southcape.  I've had my own brush with Outfield Marketing and am biting my fingertips from spewing out the whole truth here.

I am still available to serve on that advisory group and have already suggested that much of it could be done online.  This discussion may be proving my point.

Here's my first suggestion for the new kids on the block:  Refer them here and encourage them to share their thoughts.

As for those Southcape owners who are reticent to post here, it looks to me as though they are afraid of being shot or shouted down.  But this discussion was never meant to preclude non Southcape owners.  It began as a timeshare owner looking for info because he was considering buying a week at Southcape.  He has decided against it and bought elsewhere.


----------



## Fig

e.bram said:


> Selling an winter inland Cape Cod TS for $8000.00???. It is easier to walk on water!!!



You can get them much cheaper...just got this email from Ebay on Southcape.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270367276324&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Two people can discuss legal issues, but they cannot discuss them in a public forum with third parties.  Problem is, far more than that has been going on here. Opinions on legal documents have been offered by non-lawyers to an entire group.  Legal conclusions have been drawn by non-lawyers and published to the group.  Actions based on non-lawyer interpretations of the documents have been urged.



Cliff,

As you know, this issue would be governed at the state level, and the laws vary from state to state. I do not want to hijack the thread, but here is the applicable Texas statue. I will not further my unauthorized practice of law by telling you what it says, but will let the documents speak for themselves.  

The practice of law is defined by statute and by case law. Section 81.101 of the Texas Government Code states: 

_(a) In this chapter the "practice of law" means the preparation of a pleading or other document incident to an action or special proceeding or the management of the action or proceeding on behalf of a client before a judge in court as well as a service rendered out of court, including the giving of advice or the rendering of any service requiring the use of legal skill or knowledge, such as preparing a will, contract, or other instrument, the legal effect of which under the facts and conclusions involved must be carefully determined. 

(b) The definition in this section is not exclusive and does not deprive the judicial branch of the power and authority under both this chapter and the adjudicated cases to determine whether other services and acts not enumerated may constitute the practice of law. 

(c) In this chapter, the "practice of law" does not include the design, creation, publication, distribution, display, or sale, including publication, distribution, display, or sale by means of an Internet web site, of written materials, books, forms, computer software, or similar products if the products clearly and conspicuously state that the products are not a substitute for the advice of an attorney. This subsection does not authorize the use of the products or similar media in violation of Chapter 83 and does not affect the applicability or enforceability of that chapter._

Other posters reside in other states, where the applicable laws would be different. Damn. That might have been an opinion. Whoops.


----------



## ecwinch

Fig said:


> You can get them much cheaper...just got this email from Ebay on Southcape.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270367276324&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123



So tempting. Then I could discuss the documents. Of course we would have to ask all the rest of you to leave the thread. It would just be us "owners" and the *DEVELOPER*.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, Eric!*



ecwinch said:


> Sou13 - check Book 3526, Page 112, Article III, Section 3.1, paragraph c.  I cannot tell you what it says, as that might be a crime.
> No one is asking for a legal opinion.



I have no problem with quoting it here:



> When unit owners other than the Declarant or its successor own fifteen percent (15%) or more of the beneficial interest, they shall be entitled to elect at least one trustee.



That's not practicing law without a license, that's reading the law and trying to figure out what it's supposed to mean.  I read it as meaning that the Developer no longer owns 51% of the units and it's time for the owners to occupy more than "advisory" status.  But, that's my reading of it, not a legal one, and these matter can be discussed in a public forum.  There are even legal forums online if I'm not mistaken.

Referring back to my concern that the Master Deed might not be so readily accessible online forever, I have to go into why I don't trust *anything* to be accessible online forever.  The reason I don't "google" "Cliff Hagberg" is that I have problems as a result of Google crowding Yahoo! out of the search engine market, and a lot of it is in the name!  Do you *Yahoo!*?  I do!


----------



## Sou13

Fig said:


> You can get them much cheaper...just got this email from Ebay on Southcape.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270367276324&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123



Visit seller's Store:
Cybernaut303 is in the Timeshare resale business:



> Buy your TIMESHARE from the market leaders. With over 100 years of combined experience in the timeshare industry, our professional staff handles ALL the details of your purchase. Your closing and ESCROW is handled with a licensed, insured, and bonded title company. 100% Money Back Guarantee, if you are not completely satisifed ! Please, add us to your Favorite Sellers and come back soon. Thank you for visiting.



Notice the absence of color of week and that even the address of Southcape Resort is incorrect!

But while we're on the subject of timeshare resale, I had to save this quote from yesterday for lack of time:


Craig said:


> I spoke with someone at www.ivsrealty.com about a month ago...they list a lot of the Cape Cod resorts. I was interested in the Sandcastle and was inquiring about resales. I was told that IVS realty bought all the unsold weeks and they were listing them on their website. He was supposed to call me back when he had all the weeks and their prices figured out. But now I'm not so sure I want another week there, if MFs are going up.
> The owners did have a $100 assessment last year for upgrades to the roof, swimming pools, and tennis courts. I have not heard of any other assessments at this time.http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82489&highlight=Sandcastle


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## tombo

Fig said:


> I didn't have to look too far to find references to Outfield Marketing and why people might have issues with their practices.
> 
> This is a restort manager commenting on Outfield on no less than than the home page of the resort website who felt the need to bold her comments.
> 
> "From the Management Office....the sales staff of Outfield Marketing who have made some false statements about Peppertree Maggie Valley during the sales presentation. Two of the statements being made are that “Peppertree Maggie Valley is not in good financial condition” and that “Peppertree Maggie Valley is going to go out of business” if the owners do not convert their week to the Festiva Adventure Club. *These statements simply are not true. *Peppertree Maggie Valley is in excellent financial health and is not in any danger of going out of business."
> 
> http://www.peppertreemv.com/owner.htm
> 
> More info from other forums documenting Outfield reps statements:
> 
> "Within the next few years Outfield Marketing will work with Festiva and would convert all of the Festiva resorts to the point system. “100%”
> 
> http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...10-festiva-goes-points-charges-thousands.html
> 
> And another forum:
> 
> "He talked to us like we were stupid. He pretty much told us our maintenance fees would go up to over 2000.00 if we stay where we are and pretty much called us stupid for doing so!!!!! He was very rude and aggravated with us and kept trying to sell his point and pointing out he does not get a commission but is doing this for us so we can save money. My husband had to ask him to leave our home for he was getting out of hand!!!!!"
> 
> http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...e_Vac_Club_Any_feedback-Branson_Missouri.html
> 
> 
> I'll stop here at one resort and two major forums outside of TUG. A few bad apples? Hmm....



This is a response for FIG and not meant to be construed as a response to anyone else. Please don't respond to this post if you are not FIG. No one here should state or imply that this post is meant for anyone other than FIG unless you are a lawyer and can make a legal ruling on whether this is legally a response to multiple recipients!

Fig, surely you can't be listing bad reviews about the self proclaimed top sales company in the country.To be top rated the customer satisfaction numbers have to be very high. Did you overlook the 1000's of glowing reviews to find these negative experiences? These Outfielder's are true professionals who comfort owners at resorts with their pleasant visits and informative owner updates. Remember that one of these Outfield salesmen is a trustee at Southscape, and who could have a problem with that?




NEVMSLLC said:


> 1. Why would it be inappropriate for a member of one of the top sales and marketing organizations in the country to be a board member of a resort that desperately needs sales and marketing? We have NEVS inventory and delinquent inventory that has to be sold and will be sold. I would hope that Southcape owners would feel comforted knowing that there are true professionals involved.


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> Visit seller's Store:
> Cybernaut303
> 
> Notice the absence of color of week and that even the address of Southcape Resort is incorrect!



Sloppy editing, no doubt...must be a edit form from The Cove which is at that address in West Yarmouth.

The weeks are addressed later on in the listing: ANNUAL FLOAT WEEKS 1 - 23 & 38 - 52


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## Sou13

*No private conversations here!*

Please be advised that this forum is *public*:annoyed:  and has by now more than 6,988 views and counting.

I would appreciate it if the recipient of the above would share her response with the rest of us here.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> This is a response for FIG and not meant to be construed as a response to anyone else. Please don't respond to this post if you are not FIG. No one here should state or imply that this post is meant for anyone other than FIG unless you are a lawyer and can make a legal ruling on whether this is legally a response to multiple recipients!
> 
> Fig, surely you can't be listing bad reviews about the self proclaimed top sales company in the country.To be top rated the customer satisfaction numbers have to be very high. Did you overlook the 1000's of glowing reviews to find these negative experiences? These Outfielder's are true professionals who comfort owners at resorts with their pleasant visits and owner updates. Remember that one of these Outfield salesmen is a trustee at Southscape, and who could have a problem with that?



Tombo, you made me laugh out loud. Keep posting, my friend. Legal or not, I have learned a butt load from this forum. Not the the least of which has been from Cliff himself. Again, I think he has been very professional in this forum and has contributed a great deal to my understanding of timeshares, HOAs, developers, managers and the like. 

That said, IMHO, having teamed up with Festiva and Outfield Marketing, he may have a bit of a challenge trying to stand positive ground in light of all that is swirling around about those two firms. But, best of luck to him. He is obviously good at what he does.


----------



## ecwinch

Fig said:


> Tombo, you made me laugh out loud. Keep posting, my friend. Legal or not, I have learned a butt load from this forum. Not the the least of which has been from Cliff himself. Again, I think he has been very professional in this forum and has contributed a great deal to my understanding of timeshares, HOAs, developers, managers and the like.
> 
> That said, IMHO, having teamed up with Festiva and Outfield Marketing, he may have a bit of a challenge trying to stand positive ground in light of all that is swirling around about those two firms. But, best of luck to him. He is obviously good at what he does.



Fig - I agree you. It has been enlightening. But I think we need to see Cliff's participation for what it is. It was not altruistic in nature. Just like his representations that he was taking actions at SC because "its the right thing to do".

Resort *DEVELOPERS* have one purpose in mind. To maximize profits for their stakeholders. They do not take actions unless they support their primary objective. His appearance is just an attempt to steer the conversation and defuse any attempt to challenge his authority.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Gee Eric and I thought we were becoming friends . . . 

How about trying to see this from my point of view for a change.  I do expect to make money that's why I did this, although money is not my only motivation.  I'd tell you the others but I don't think you'd believe me so let's assume I'm your typical greedy developer who only cares about making money for himself.  How am I going to do that?

The best way to do that is to have a great product to sell.  That means a resort that's renovated, up-to-date, efficient, looks great, is financially sound, has a plan moving forward and most of all - *happy owners*.

Why are happy owners so important?  I've told you.  Sales to owners and sales to referral of owners make up about 60% of my sales!  Why would I want to do anything contrary to the best interests of everyone when I'm going to have to depend on the active support of the owners to sell my inventory????

This is not a typical developer situation at all.  In a typical situation, a developer builds a resort and sells out in 2 - 5 years and moves on.  At Southcape, we have owners who've been there almost 30 years.  Trust me, they talk about the resort all of the time when they're vacationing.  How many of those owners do you think I'd be able to sell if they were all angry with me?  Not very many.  If the owners were unhappy, how many of them do you think would tell the exchangers and renters about the problems and advise them not to buy?  I can tell you for a fact that they all would!!

Again, I'm a greedy, money-hungry developer who cares nothing about the resort and the owners (remember, this is just an assumption!).  Let's also assume that I'm not a complete idiot.  I know where my bread is buttered.  It's buttered by doing the very best I can to make Southcape the best resort possible and, while I can never make all of the owners happy, I can make most of them happy.

We've spoken personally with hundreds of owners over the past few months. Almost all of them are pleased with what we've been doing.  Most have paid the special assessment with no problem and on time.  Many have thanked me for finally doing something to fix the resort.  I'm holding weekly meetings with owners to answer their questions about what's going on at Southcape and I do it myself.  How many developers do you know that do that?

After hundreds of conversations, I can count on one hand (and have one finger left over) the number of owners who think there's something underhanded going on and that I've come in to rape and pillage the resort.  I'll extend the same invitation to you that I have to Southcape owners.  Come visit the resort.  Let me show you around and explain all of the problems we're facing and what we're planning to do about it and decide for yourself.  I'll even pay for your overnight rental.  Sorry everyone, but this invitation is only for Eric.  I can't afford to have all of you come down, although I am having a big cook out this weekend but you'll have to BYOB.

I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated.    It might surprise people to learn that I hear from new Festiva owners from Southcape and they love Festiva.  but, then again, you probably think I'm lying about that as well.  Oh well, all I can do is tell you truth.  I can't make you believe it.

So, Eric, come on down!!!

Cliff


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated.  Apparently that owner hasn't told everyone that that owner told me that they had purchased a membership in Festiva, had second thoughts and asked what I thought they should do.  I told them that if they didn't want it, call Outfield and I was certain they would cancel their membership, refund their money and deed their week back to them.  I understand that's exactly what happened.  Gee, Outfield and Festiva must be greedy robber barons too.  All of this happened after the recision period expired by the way.  I will also tell you that they are not the only ones that Outfield and Festiva did this for.
> So, Eric, come on down!!!
> 
> Cliff



This is for FIG and FIG alone. No implied statement of legal knowledge or imparting of legal advice of any kind is to be assumed or implied. If you are not FIG please close your eyes and scroll down past this post. If you are not FIG and yet you are still reading this after being asked not to, I want to make it clear that I am not a lawyer. If you are not FIG do not respond to this post!

FIG, isn't a contract LEGALLY FORMED when two people or businesses agree to do something like take your money, your deeded week, enroll you in a club, and a contract is signed? Doesn't stating that someone (enough information has been given to assume SOU ) had signed a confidential agreement to buy Festiva mean that the details of a private contract which should not have been disclosed, was actually disclosed here on this public forum? Later there was a confidential discussion between 2 parties (one of whom is allegedly posting the confidential information) regarding an offer to change or cancel said contract, once again disclosed here. Then the actual cancellation of the contract was posted on this same public forum. This was apparently posted because the person disclosing the information was upset that THE PERSON WHO ACTUALLY SIGNED THE CONTRACT DID NOT WANT TO DISCLOSE THE INFORMATION THEMSLVES!! FIG I am not a lawyer, but it would seem to be something that could get someone in legal trouble unless they had written permission from both parties to post such private information concerning a very private contract on a public forum. To disclose another person's private contract information to make one's business appear generous or because you are upset that you feel they are discussing your company using rumors and innuendos could be something that could get you sued!  What do you think FIG?

Something else that could in my opinion (once again I am not a lawyer) create great legal problems down the road is the admission that more than a couple of people have been released from their legal contracts after the recission period has passed. That means there has been a precedent established. Anyone who wants out of their contract with Festiva could go to court, get their money refunded, and get their deeded week back because Outfield has done it several times before. I am not a lawyer, but it would seem that all who want out can get out without regard to timeframes. No need to worry about the recission period in the future, just call tham and cancel when you feel like it. Maybe this option could be announced at the annual meeting in case there are any in attendance who want out of their contracts. The old saying of "If you do it for one you have to do it for all" comes to mind, but I am not sure if that is a legal phrase. Your opinion FIG?

FIG I remember a lot of Southscape and Festiva things have been discussed here that weren't disclosed because of legal confidentiality issues.  Those things didn't seem like they would be a problem to me to discuss here (of course i am not a lawyer), but I was assured that they couldn't be discussed because of legal reasons. On the other hand having a CEO/trustee posting private contract information because an owner wouldn't post it themselves is deemed to be appropriate. I sure wish I was a lawyer cause that just doesn't sound right. It would be nice to have a lawyer comment because IMO announcing the details of a private contract on a public forum without written permission could surely get one sued. 

FIG it is always great to talk to you and I look forward to hearing a lawyer's opinion on this matter. I think someone might have stepped in some legal doo doo. 



NEVMSLLC said:


> Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC
> I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated. It might surprise people to learn that I hear from new Festiva owners from Southcape and they love Festiva. but, then again, you probably think I'm lying about that as well. Oh well, all I can do is tell you truth. I can't make you believe it.
> So, Eric, come on down!!!
> 
> 
> Cliff
> [Quote edited to reflect edit of original post, at request of NEVMSLLC. The edit removed NEVMSLLC's statement that Outfield had on several occasions refunded the purchase after the expiration of the rescission period. - Makai Guy, BBS Administrator]



I think I might have been correct. Legal might have been less than pleased with the original post. The original post was changed to the above new post for some reason or another. The original quote is very different than what is currently posted on his edited post. I wonder if my assumption that he had stepped in legal doo doo was correct? I think my guess was correct and I bet legal is none too happy with the original post being found or the fact that we can compare it to the new edited post side by side.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Gee Eric and I thought we were becoming friends . . .
> Cliff



Cliff,

How many of those "happy owners" know that NEVS is not required to pay the special assessment that is improving the resort?

How many of those "happy owners" understand that you have the ability to levy special assessments without the approval of anyone who would be forced to pay them?

How many of those "happy owners" know who stands to benefit the most from all the improvements and changes that they will be paying for?

You want "happy owners" to the extent that it facilitates your ability to sell your inventory. Their happiness is important for as long it serves your needs. That is all you said in your reply. 

And of course you care about the resort, but only as it serves your ability to generate a profit on your investment. You made a sizeable investment to obtain your control. You did not do so because you care about the resort or the owners. You did so because you saw a business opportunity. The "care" you are demonstrating now is rooted in protecting your investment.

You want us to assume that you are not a complete idiot. Then quit insulting our intelligence.

If I am wrong, point out another resort that you have been involved in that is your success story of "happy owners". And by that I mean happy today.


----------



## e.bram

I would say now is the time for most owners to bail out(stop paying everything) except for fixed weeks 25 thru 34. They will have a chance to buy back their forclosed units for less than the MFs on Ebay.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> This is for FIG and FIG alone....
> 
> FIG, isn't a contract LEGALLY FORMED when two people or businesses agree to do something like take your money, your deeded week, enroll you in a club, and a contract is signed?....
> 
> FIG it is always great to talk to you and I look forward to hearing a lawyers opinion on this matter. I think someone might have stepped in some legal doo doo.



Tombo, I have known lawyers, employed lawyers, but I am no lawyer. However, if Cliff's intent in coming to the board and answering questions was to help persuade people, me thinks he might have lost some points with his post. 

I do hope you, SOU and *everyone* continues to post. As has been pointed out, this is an open and public forum...and very informative at that. The fact that has over 7,000 views should be evidence enough that it resonates beyond any one person's opinion.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

OK, Eric, I guess you're not coming to visit.  Here we go:

1.  Every owner I've spoken or communicated with about the issue knows that NEVS is not obligated to pay maintenance fees or assessments.  It's not a secret and I've been very upfront about it, haven't I?  And don't forget where the rental income is going.

2.  Again, every owner I've spoken or communicated  with knows the process.  Again, most of the owners have thanked me for finally fixing the place up!  Once more, it's not a secret.

3.  you seem to imply that the owners, whose units are being fixed up will not benefit from that.  Are you serious??  Of course NEVS will benefit and so will every other owner.  You tell me who benefits most.  When I got involved with Brewster Green, we could only sell summer weeks for about $2,500.  There have been three special assessments to improve the resort. I was not involved in deciding on any of the assessments.  Two for $500 and one last year for $300.  We now sell summer weeks for as much as $18,000.  Would even you dare to suggest that the owners didn't benefit??

I told you that you wouldn't believe my other motivations.  You don't know a thing about my motives, nor have you even bothered to ask me what they might be.  I went along with your assumptions facetiously but apparently you can't tell the difference.  You have no idea why I did this because i haven't told you.

Finally, i don't really care whether you think I'm a complete idiot or not.  You ain't even an owner!!!  Further, I've never insulted your intelligence, you just seem insecure about it.

I've pointed out two already.  Brewster Green and the Ponds at Foxhollow.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> OK, Eric, I guess you're not coming to visit.
> 
> you seem to imply that the owners, whose units are being fixed up will not benefit from that.  Are you serious??



Cliff,

 I did not imply that at all. My statement was "who benefits the *MOST*". Or course the owners benefit, and they should - because they are paying for the refurbishment. 

 I really cannot believe you see this as equitable. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you see  it the same way?

 I will leave it to others to vouch for your reputation at the other resorts you have been involved with. With so many "happy" owners it should be easy.

 And to close the loop - what are your motives?


----------



## Sou13

*Do you really want me to tell everyone?*

I had to go back to my email records to find the date of my telephone conversation with Cliff Hagberg.  He was calling on his cell phone en route to Southcape, so he must have records of the date of the call.  It was Feb. 24, 2009.

Now look at the date of my entry onto TUG as a "Guest" and my first post.  It is all subsequent to Feb. 5, 2009 and do you really want me to tell everyone why that date is so important?

Go over to the "Festiva takes over resort" and explain to us what FestivaRep meant about releasing FAC members from their contracts.

I *resent* the implication that anything I've posted is "untruth" or "inuendo" and if those implications aren't inuendoes I don't know what an inuendo is.

Again I can't help but wonder whether there was any significance to the timing of joining and posting here.  Did it have anything to do with letters or telephone calls from *unhappy* Southcape owners?

So let's bicker about what's in it for NEVS and what's in it for Outfield Marketing and what's in it for Festiva.  If we waste all our energy bickering we might be distracted from the *real* issue which is the *$450,000* for capital improvements that have not been approved by the unit owners!


----------



## e.bram

Now is the time for concerned owners to chip in a nd hire a lawyer to compell NEVS to pay MFs for the units they control. In 30 years a judge should rule the development phase is over and let the MF paying owner control the TS.


----------



## Sou13

*I've been revisiting FestivaRep's posts*

I went through all of FestivaRep's posts and couldn't find the one I thought I'd be able to find there.  Rather than edit my previous post, I'm correcting it here.  No "untruth" that can't be corrected!


----------



## wmauryd

*Cape Cod inland, Cape Cod off-season,*

Cliff,

Can you elaborate on Southcape inland and offseason issues, with respect to both owner and rental occupancy? From reading earlier, you've addressed some of the remedies. 

Also, do you have any background as a single-week owner at Southcape, prior to your inventory acquisition? Did you ever stay there on vacation? 

David M


----------



## Sou13

*Did FestivaRep do the same thing?*

Found on the "Festiva takes over" discussion:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC
> I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated. It might surprise people to learn that I hear from new Festiva owners from Southcape and they love Festiva. but, then again, you probably think I'm lying about that as well. Oh well, all I can do is tell you truth. I can't make you believe it.
> So, Eric, come on down!!!
> 
> 
> Cliff
> [Quote edited to reflect edit of original post, at request of NEVMSLLC.  The edit removed NEVMSLLC's statement that Outfield had on several occasions refunded the purchase after the expiration of the rescission period. - Makai Guy, BBS Administrator]
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93814&page=8



I'd have sworn that FestivaRep had posted something about letting FAC members out of their contracts but couldn't find it.  I did, however, find the above quote posted by tombo, but when I reread Cliff's post it didn't say that, only that it had been edited after I logged off last evening.

So you see we have a problem.  Things get posted here, then deleted and we get a little crazy.

What got me so crazy was the inuendo that I was the one who'd had that conversation with Cliff.  Whatever got tombo to that conclusion, I see now that Cliff has tried to make it look like he never posted it.  But tombo and I both saw it and I saw *red* because of the *inuendo* that Cliff and I had had that conversation.

Cliff and I did have a conversation, and I realized that by posting it here I was probably closing the door to any further communication from him, and that is exactly what has happened.  Go back to my post, "My first questions for Cliff Hagberg" and go on.  Have those questions been answered?  Were they sent to the wrong email address?  I didn't pose any further questions because it looked to me as though Cliff Hagberg didn't want to answer any more of my questions.

I have been hiding behind a ridiculous user name here because my name is unique and I am careful not to give it out online.  I can't even narrow down the location because that would lead online searchers directly to my door.  I've heard too many tales about identity theft and other frauds, not to mention "spam" and what a nuisance that is, to give out that info.

So, what do I have to fear?  I fear that the open door of communication will be shut by those who attack my credibility.  I have posted my own experiences, as much as I could divulge, and if I've rendered opinions about the rights and responsibilities of Southcape owners it was as a result of perusing the Master Deed.  If Cliff Hagberg didn't want me to do that, why did he send me the link?  Was it a form of entrapment? 

Have we had a telephone conversation?  Yes, we have.  Did we discuss Outfield Marketing?  Yes, we did.  Did we discuss the Special Assessment?  Yes, we did.  Did I let Cliff Hagberg know that I'm unhappy about Outfield Marketing and the Special Assessment?  Yes, I did.

I couldn't be sure when Cliff Hagberg called me that he knew who had requested the call.  I had left a message on the IVS website for him to please give me a call in the a.m.  My call was about the inventory listed on the website, and from what he told me about that inventory, the red flags went up.  From that point on I had to caution myself not to be taken in by a smooth talking salesman, which I perceive Cliff Hagberg to be.

I'm not here for any reason other than to warn Southcape owners that their happy days at Southcape may be coming to an end, if they haven't already.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 - just for the record, I did read the post before it was edited, what you show above was what I read initially.

I am going to give Cliff the benefit of the doubt, and assume he did the edit after Tombo took him to task for disclosing the conversation. I do not see anything sinister about that. 

Regarding Cliff in general, I think you do have it right - he is a smooth talking salesman. I visualize most salesman in the same way as that character Kaa in Disney's Jungle Book.


----------



## Sou13

*Still wondering where I got that impression*



ecwinch said:


> Sou13 - just for the record, I did read the post before it was edited, what you show above was what I read initially.
> 
> I am going to give Cliff the benefit of the doubt, and assume he did the edit after Tombo took him to task for disclosing the conversation. I do not see anything sinister about that.
> 
> Regarding Cliff in general, I think you do have it right - he is a smooth talking salesman. I visualize most salesman in the same way as that character Kaa in Disney's Jungle Book.



Still wondering where I got the impression that FestivaRep had posted something about letting FAC members out of their contracts, I went through all those posts yet again looking for "Last edited" and the only one I found was for a spelling error.

My impression of FestivaRep is that Festiva wants to clear up misunderstandings and has assigned the task to FestivaRep who handles it very professionally.

One odd observation was that yesterday when I was checking who's online FestivaRep was supposedly replying to a post on the "Festiva takes over" discussion but it never got posted.  

Today we were being viewed by a TUG administrator who has since then moved on to another discussion.


----------



## Russ45

NEVMSLLC said:


> Eric
> 
> Two people can discuss legal issues, but they cannot discuss them in a public forum with third parties.  Problem is, far more than that has been going on here. Opinions on legal documents have been offered by non-lawyers to an entire group.  Legal conclusions have been drawn by non-lawyers and published to the group.  Actions based on non-lawyer interpretations of the documents have been urged.
> 
> How about the fact that I sell delinquent weeks at Brewster Green as high as $18,000 and the Ponds at Foxhollow as high as $22,000?  I say again, maybe I could benefit your resorts as well?
> 
> Cliff
> 
> BTW, I keep seeing posts by non-southcape owners.  Are there any actual owners that have a question?


Cliff,

I am an owner of one interval and I was wondering if you could answer a couple of questions for me.  I have read parts of the Masterdeed and some of the older posts and I understand you and the other two Board of Trustees were appointed.  Were you appointed to fill vacancies due to the sale of the resort?  If so, the Master Deed indicates that you fill out the rest of the unexpired term and that Trustees are elected annually.  Am I correct in interpretation of the Master Deed?  Are the Board of Trustee elections to be held this year?  If so could you tell me when?  I assume from the Master Deed that all deeded owners may participate in election of the Board.  Also,  There are a significant number of improvements NEVMS and the Association are planning this year, well over $10,000.  Are improvements over $10,000 supposed to be voted on by deeded owners?  If you could answer these questions I would greatly appreciate it, I apologize if you have answered in a previous post.

As a sidenote, the initial special assessment letter sent out contained very little information, had no letterhead, no signature, no backup information, no indication of who the appointed Board of Trustees were and a very short period of time to pay, which is why I think so many owners, including myself, had originally thought this was a scam from another entity or an illegitimate request.  I think you would have met with less backlash and scrutiny of operations if you had prepared and sent all the information with the special assessment notice rather than in the manner you did.  Just a thought


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi Russ

I really hate to seem like I'm avoiding these legal questions, but the fact is, I have to.  Much of what you're asking in the first paragraph is legal in nature.  Some of the questions you raise are also involved in litigation with the resort which began before I got involved.  I just hope you can understand why i can't comment on subjects involving current litigation.

What I can say is that everything that has been done was done under the guidance and supervision of several law firms that specialize in these matters.  

As to your side note, I think you are absolutely right and i wish we had done things a bit differently.  I can't change it but I do regret it.  I can tell you that the notice was modeled exactly after special assessment notices that have been sent out by two of the country's leading management firms.  We did not just make it up.  That very type of notice has been used for several years with great success by each of these companies.  While we've only heard from a handful of owners with similar comments to yours, I happen to agree with you.  I could tell you we won't do it again, but I don't see the need for another special assessment.  By the way, we've had a great response from the owners who have sent in their assessment.  The work has been started and it all looks great.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Some of the questions you raise are also involved in litigation with the resort which began before I got involved.  I just hope you can understand why i can't comment on subjects involving *current litigation*.



I am surprised to learn there is current litigation. Hmmm... isnt that special. I wonder who is behind it....


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Sou13 - just for the record, I did read the post before it was edited, what you show above was what I read initially.
> 
> I am going to give Cliff the benefit of the doubt, and assume he did the edit after Tombo took him to task for disclosing the conversation. I do not see anything sinister about that.
> 
> Regarding Cliff in general, I think you do have it right - he is a smooth talking salesman. I visualize most salesman in the same way as that character Kaa in Disney's Jungle Book.



I see something wrong with that. He, IMO, realized that he might be disclosing contract information that he shouldn't have revealed after I responded. He did not alter his post IMO because he felt bad about it, he changed his post IMO because he realized that he might have discussed private contracts that he wasn't allowed to legally discuss, and his comments might have opened himself and his company up to being sued by SOU. He never apologized, just changed his post. If a copy of his post was sent to legal I would bet that they said get rid of that post and don't say anything like that in writing ever again. I am just guessing. The bad news for that poster is that I posted my response and copied his quote verbatim before he changed it. No matter what his post says now my quote is what he originally said and there are plenty of TUGGERS who read the original post as I copied it. I posted mine at 4:28 PM on April 1st, and the original post I copied the quote from  was edited on April 2nd at 10:05 AM.

SOU I am not a lawyer but I would bet that if you showed a lawyer what Cliff originally posted that your lawyer would say that you have a legal case. Heck he might even take it for free on a contingency basis. Cliff is a trustee at Southscape, owner of NEVS, and probably the one who hired Outfield. He is a principal and IMO should never without your express permission have posted details of your contractual agreements with Festiva, Outfield, or NEVS. Contact a lawyer and get his opinion SOU. You might have just won the legal lottery.

Besides SOU's situation that IMO should never been discussed on a public forum without SOU's written consent, I also think his post about cancelling contracts opened the door to people being able to do just that with Outfield even after the recission period has passed. By Cliff's own admission Outfield has let people out of their contacts after the recission period has passed on more than one previous occasion. That might legally allows others to do the same although I am not sure because I am not a lawyer.

 Of course as I have said, I am not a lawyer and not giving legal advice or legal opinions. I am simply wondering what a Lawyer would think, say, or do given these facts. If any lawyer wants to comment it would be an interesting post. Everything I have stated is my personal opinion and my personal conjectures, and is not to be construed in any form or fashion to be legal opinions or legal advice.


----------



## tombo

Editing our copy of what was originally posted is not right!!!!!!! This is nowhere near the content of the original post. There is no problem with him changing his post but changing our copies of his original post totally change the discussions we are currently involved in.

Since I first posted this I have since obtained a copy of the original quote and added it above so TUGGERs can read what was originally said and what is currently on the post. Having both posts listed allows the previous discussion to be valid and opens new options to discuss differences in the 2 posts. In the long run this might be even better than having just the original.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC 
I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated. It might surprise people to learn that I hear from new Festiva owners from Southcape and they love Festiva. but, then again, you probably think I'm lying about that as well. Oh well, all I can do is tell you truth. I can't make you believe it.
So, Eric, come on down!!!


Cliff
[Quote edited to reflect edit of original post by NEVMSLLC - Makai Guy, BBS Administrator]

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthr...t=93814&page=8


----------



## NEVMSLLC

wmauryd said:


> Cliff,
> 
> Can you elaborate on Southcape inland and offseason issues, with respect to both owner and rental occupancy? From reading earlier, you've addressed some of the remedies.
> 
> Also, do you have any background as a single-week owner at Southcape, prior to your inventory acquisition? Did you ever stay there on vacation?
> 
> David M



Hi David

I could probably write a treatise on your question, but I'll try to sum up my feelings as best I can.  On Cape Cod, there are basically three types of resorts: purpose built like the Cove at Yarmouth, converted condos such as Southcape and converted motels like the Ocean Club.  Virtually all of the oceanfront resorts are converted motels, great locations, small units.  Purpose built resorts have lots of amenities and smaller units.  The converted condos were originally intended to be whole ownership condominiums and they tend to be large and spacious.  Different strokes, different folks.

Occupancies do vary from resort to resort but at Southcape, for example, we run about 25% in January, increasing gradually until June and then in the high 90% range until the middle of October. About 65% in May and 35% in November for example.  Most of the off season weeks are used for exchange.

Because of the lack of off season rental activity, a fully sold out resort is critical to a resort's financial health.  If off season weeks go delinquent, it's very difficult to rent those weeks to recover the maintenance fee.  That's why a good sales program to replace those owners is so important.  If you need more details, let me know.

I began with Southcape in 1992 doing a resale program for the owners and the former developers.   Over the years, I've owned a number of weeks at Southcape and I never did buy one on Ebay for $1.  The developers asked me to leave the resort in 1993 because I was selling too many of their weeks.  I continued doing resales from off site but it was simply not as effective.  

I began to see the problems developing with the resort back then and I decided to try and buy the remaining inventory so I could sell the weeks and make sure the resort was on the right track.  I tried to buy the inventory in 1995, 1998, 2003 and 2005.  Each time, the developers changed their mind and kept the inventory and control.  Finally, last year they decided to sell for real and that's sort of how I got where I am now.

Funny enough, I've never stayed there but I do plan to stay there sometime this year.  I've always loved Southcape Resort.  It has everything you would want in a great resort - wonderful units, great location, the right amenities and a "feel" that most resorts don't have.  As you've seen, Southcape owners are passionate about their resort and that's a very good thing.  Over the next year, I believe that Southcape will become the resort it's always been meant to be and I'm already proud to have a part in making that happen.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> I've always loved Southcape Resort.  It has everything you would want in a great resort - wonderful units, great location, the right amenities and a "feel" that most resorts don't have.



and by-laws that allow the owners almost no rights. I think you left that out.


----------



## wmauryd

*off season rental and occupancy,*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi David
> 
> Most of the off season weeks are used for exchange.
> 
> Because of the lack of off season rental activity, a fully sold out resort is critical to a resort's financial health.  If off season weeks go delinquent, it's very difficult to rent those weeks to recover the maintenance fee.  That's why a good sales program to replace those owners is so important.  If you need more details, let me know.



Cliff, 

Thank you for this reply and your reply days ago. Yes, tell us more details about why a good sales program is so important. 

I agree that a fully sold out resort is best for financial health, but once a resort like Southcape is fully sold, isn't there a problem with some of those off season weeks? If everyone who owns them, trades them, then isn't there an RCI or II trade imbalance? I suppose that's RCI and II's problem, at least for a while. Wouldn't there be a tendency for greater deliquency in those off season weeks? And wouldn't  reclaiming, or foreclosing, off-season delinquent weeks have its own problems? I heard one year and $2000 quoted as the time and price to reclaim a unit, when I attended an owners meeting at BG resort. 

Would it make any financial sense to reduce the mx fees (now here's an inflammatory idea the premium-week owners will love) for weeks occurring during the long Massachusetts winter? The purpose being to stabilize ownership and reduce foreclosures?

Those roads through the pine barrens would make great cross-country ski trails when there's snow. Has anyone ever brought their skis to the resort?

David M.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> I see something wrong with that. He, IMO, realized that he might be disclosing contract information that he shouldn't have revealed after I responded. He did not alter his post IMO because he felt bad about it, he changed his post IMO because he realized that he might have discussed private contracts that he wasn't allowed to legally discuss, and his comments might have opened himself and his company up to being sued by SOU. He never apologized, just changed his post. If a copy of his post was sent to legal I would bet that they said get rid of that post and don't say anything like that in writing ever again. I am just guessing. The bad news for that poster is that I posted my response and copied his quote verbatim before he changed it. No matter what his post says now my quote is what he originally said and there are plenty of TUGGERS who read the original post as I copied it. I posted mine at 4:28 PM on April 1st, and the original post I copied the quote from  was edited on April 2nd at 10:05 AM.



Yes - I am one of those who read it originally. But this is almost like we have a way-back machine. I think we should all begin revising our previous posts to the board. Do not worry about being quoted , that can be changed.

Think about it - we can go back and make ourselves seem smarter. Heck I can go back to Friday and work in something about how I think the market is going to hit 8000 next week. Maybe then I will not feel so insecure about my intelligence.

Oh wait - read my post back in 05, where I predicted that Obama would be President.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Yes - I am one of those who read it originally. But this is almost like we have a way-back machine. I think we should all begin revising our previous posts to the board. Do not worry about being quoted , that can be changed.
> 
> Think about it - we can go back and make ourselves seem smarter. Heck I can go back to Friday and work in something about how I think the market is going to hit 8000 next week. Maybe then I will not feel so insecure about my intelligence.
> 
> Oh wait - read my post back in 05, where I predicted that Obama would be President.


 XXXX wanted his post removed (duhh), and unfortunatelly that has been done. If someone has or can find the original quote please post it.


----------



## Russ45

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Russ
> 
> I really hate to seem like I'm avoiding these legal questions, but the fact is, I have to.  Much of what you're asking in the first paragraph is legal in nature.  Some of the questions you raise are also involved in litigation with the resort which began before I got involved.  I just hope you can understand why i can't comment on subjects involving current litigation.
> 
> What I can say is that everything that has been done was done under the guidance and supervision of several law firms that specialize in these matters.
> 
> As to your side note, I think you are absolutely right and i wish we had done things a bit differently.  I can't change it but I do regret it.  I can tell you that the notice was modeled exactly after special assessment notices that have been sent out by two of the country's leading management firms.  We did not just make it up.  That very type of notice has been used for several years with great success by each of these companies.  While we've only heard from a handful of owners with similar comments to yours, I happen to agree with you.  I could tell you we won't do it again, but I don't see the need for another special assessment.  By the way, we've had a great response from the owners who have sent in their assessment.  The work has been started and it all looks great.


Thanks Cliff, I understand about the legal response on an online forum.  Could you at least answer my question about the timing of the Board of Trustees election, as that is not subject to legal interpretation.  I have sent you a private letter where you and the attourneys may answer the questions in my letter similar to some of the questions posted above.


----------



## w.bob

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Russ
> I could tell you we won't do it again, but I don't see the need for another special assessment.  By the way, we've had a great response from the owners who have sent in their assessment.  The work has been started and it all looks great.



Cliff,

Can you give me a rundown as to what improvements will be made with the $400.00 assessment. What has been started? What is completed? & What is pending?

What is the estimate for all work to be done & do you see any further upgrades in the near future?

I hope we can hold you to your statement that you see no need for another special assessment. I understand the need for a special assessment in order to upgrade the resort but I would feel a whole lot better if you, the developer would have paid some type of an assessment per unit as a good faith gesture since the improvements to the unsold units will bring you a better price for the sales you are so confident that you can achieve. If you did pay a portion of the assessment it would have lowered the quote of $400.00 per interval for the current owners. 

I hope to be at the annual meeting in May. Can you post the date,time & location here so owners can plan to attend.

I am going to stay out of the "legal' issues going on here but I hope the bickering does not escalate. I like the fact that I can get two sides of the story even though I do not always agree with everything that is posted by all parties. Since you can not answer the legal related questions maybe you can refer the poster to someone who can. I hope you continue to answer questions directed at you by both owners & non owners. You never know they may be a future owner.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi David

Since I became involved in Brewster Green, a sold out resort, I've sold 1,186 weeks, almost half of the resort.  Most of those weeks were either owned by the association or were owned by delinquent owners.  In either case, they were not paying maintenance fees.  Had I not been there, what would have happened to the resort?  Had I not been there, how many owners would have tried to list their weeks for sale with one of the "upfront fee" timeshare resale companies.  To the best of my knowledge, none of the upfront fee companies have sold a week at Brewster Green.  If you take an average maintenance fee of $500, we've added or replaced over half a million a year in maintenance fee income to the resort.

There is a problem with off season weeks.  They are the most likely to become delinquent.  If you take the position that they're off season and therefore not worth anything, who in their right mind would want to buy them?  When we sell them, we spend a lot of time making sure that buyers are realistic in their expectations of what an off season week will and will not do for them.  They also know that, if for some reason it doesn't work for them, they can always list it for sale with us again and have a way to get out.  Everybody wins.  We don't foreclose, we act as a real estate broker and list and sell weeks before the owner ends up going delinquent. It's a good program.  The exchange imbalance is something both RCI and II are well aware of and the specifically plan for that in their exchange program.  We still have a lot of inbound exchange guests throughout the year. 

In most cases, the maintenance fees cannot be adjusted according to demand or seasonality.  Massachusetts law requires that maintenance fees be assessed in certain ways and the resort has no choice.  It can be a real problem when the maintenance fee exceeds the rental value of a week but we've found ways to overcome that problem as well.

I don't know about people bringing their skis but we always tell people that it rarely snows on Cape Cod.  Of course the last few winters have certainly proved us wrong!  At the Ponds at Foxhollow, cross country skiing is very popular but then, winter is considered red time out there.

Cliff


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi Russ

I have your letter and haven't answered it yet as I've been out of work for the past week or so.  I will answer when I get back to work.  Even then, I can't comment on legal issues or pending litigation.

Actually, the election of a board is a matter of legal interpretation and i'll try to give you an idea of the scope of the problem.  There are several conflicting condo docs at Southcape, all of which were written prior to the adoption of MGL 183B.  Are they grandfathered?  If so, which one prevails?  Are they not grandfathered and do they have to be amended?  These questions should have been answered twenty years ago but never were.  We're addressing these issues and, until they're resolved, I just can't give you definitive answers.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Yes - I am one of those who read it originally. But this is almost like we have a way-back machine. I think we should all begin revising our previous posts to the board. Do not worry about being quoted , that can be changed.
> 
> Think about it - we can go back and make ourselves seem smarter. Heck I can go back to Friday and work in something about how I think the market is going to hit 8000 next week. Maybe then I will not feel so insecure about my intelligence.
> 
> Oh wait - read my post back in 05, where I predicted that Obama would be President.



Thanks to a TUGGER's research the original post has been found. The original unedited quote was found on the Google archived copy of the page. It won't be lost again because myself and several others have it archived in our e-mails other than TUG Here it is again :





NEVMSLLC said:


> I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated.  Apparently that owner hasn't told everyone that that owner told me that they had purchased a membership in Festiva, had second thoughts and asked what I thought they should do.  I told them that if they didn't want it, call Outfield and I was certain they would cancel their membership, refund their money and deed their week back to them.  I understand that's exactly what happened.  Gee, Outfield and Festiva must be greedy robber barons too.  All of this happened after the recision period expired by the way.  I will also tell you that they are not the only ones that Outfield and Festiva did this for.
> So, Eric, come on down!!!
> 
> Cliff



The above quote is the original. Below is what the OP requested to have his post edited to read. I think in fairness both should remain since both have sparked discussions, and probably will continue to do so.






NEVMSLLC said:


> Originally Posted by NEVMSLLC
> I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo despite our having spoken and communicated. It might surprise people to learn that I hear from new Festiva owners from Southcape and they love Festiva. but, then again, you probably think I'm lying about that as well. Oh well, all I can do is tell you truth. I can't make you believe it.
> So, Eric, come on down!!!
> 
> 
> Cliff
> [Quote edited to reflect edit of original post, at request of NEVMSLLC. The edit removed NEVMSLLC's statement that Outfield had on several occasions refunded the purchase after the expiration of the rescission period. - Makai Guy, BBS Administrator]


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi w.bob

Over a third of the resort have roofs that are over 30 years old.  Those roofs are leaking and causing a significant amount of damage.  We are replacing all of the older roofs.

On a similar number of buildings, the siding is original and is rotting.  The rot is beginning to affect the structural integrity of the buildings.  All of the siding is being replaced.

In almost half of the resort, the outside trim has not been repainted and is peeling off.  In some buildings, the paint has been taken down to bare wood.  We are repainting all of the trim.

A number of the septic systems have failed and the town wanted us to put in a sewage treatment plant.  So far, I've been able to negotiate with the town and the MA DEP to permit us to repair the existing systems rather than build a treatment plant.  That alone should save us almost a million dollars.  Repairs needed to begin immediately as part of the negotiation.

Twenty four units have not had an interior upgrade in almost 20 years.  We are completely refurbishing those units.  Just as an aside, NEVS has almost no inventory for sale in any of those unit.

The existing computer system was written by a banker and is almost unusable.  We're installing a state of the art computer system which will give us accurate information and to be able to establish and monitor a budget which has never been done before.

We are installing wireless internet throughout the resort.

We have replaced all of the fitness equipment where none worked.

The resort has been running at an operating loss for the last few years and maintenance fees have not kept up with the actual expenses of running the resort.  The assessment will fund last years operating loss so the 2009 budget will be balanced and so will budgets in future years.

Those are the major items and they come to over a million dollars.  The work on the roofs and siding is almost complete.  Painting will start when the weather improves.  The septics will begin when we have a solid agreement with the town and the DEP.  Wireless internet is being installed as is the computer system.  Renovations on the interiors will begin next fall as we don't have time to complete them before the start of the season.

Cliff


----------



## e.bram

Notice who cites laws when it fits into his argument.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Russ
> What I can say is that everything that has been done was done under the guidance and supervision of several law firms that specialize in these matters.



Cliff,

This is the second time you made this disclaimer. For the interest of the owners on the board, can you provide the names of the law firms that were party to this review and supervision, and who they represented?

Obviously there was NEVMSLLC. And probably an attorney representing the previous developer. In particular, which law firm represented the Trust, and by whom were they compensated (if other than the Trust). Have any other parties reviewed the activities to date?

Also, it appears that there is not a owners association at Southcape. Is that correct?. There is only NEVMSLLC as the *DEVELOPER*, and the Trust.

If you choose not to answer I will understand, hopefully one of the owners will raise the question.


----------



## Sou13

*Spent an hour here already and still not caught up*



ecwinch said:


> Cliff,
> 
> I did not imply that at all. My statement was "who benefits the *MOST*". Or course the owners benefit, and they should - because they are paying for the refurbishment.
> 
> I really cannot believe you see this as equitable. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you see  it the same way?
> 
> I will leave it to others to vouch for your reputation at the other resorts you have been involved with. With so many "happy" owners it should be easy.
> 
> And to close the loop - what are your motives?



I've been here an hour trying to figure out what to do and have yet to see an answer to this one, so I'll chime in here:

*And to close the loop - what are your motives?*

Going through all posts since this question I find these:

_ Southcape Resort 
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC 
Hi w.bob Over a third of the resort have roofs...

Hi w.bob

Over a third of the resort have roofs that are over 30 years old. Those roofs are leaking and causing a significant amount of damage. We are replacing all of the older roofs.

On a...  
Forum: US - Eastern  April 3, 2009, 09:24 AM  
Replies: 335  Southcape Resort 
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC 
Hi Russ I have your letter and haven't answered...

Hi Russ

I have your letter and haven't answered it yet as I've been out of work for the past week or so. I will answer when I get back to work. Even then, I can't comment on legal issues or...  
Forum: US - Eastern  April 3, 2009, 09:17 AM  
Replies: 335  Southcape Resort 
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC 
Hi David Since I became involved in Brewster...

Hi David

Since I became involved in Brewster Green, a sold out resort, I've sold 1,186 weeks, almost half of the resort. Most of those weeks were either owned by the association or were owned by...  
Forum: US - Eastern  April 2, 2009, 11:21 PM  
Replies: 335  Southcape Resort 
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC 
Hi David I could probably write a treatise on...

Hi David

I could probably write a treatise on your question, but I'll try to sum up my feelings as best I can. On Cape Cod, there are basically three types of resorts: purpose built like the Cove...  
Forum: US - Eastern  April 2, 2009, 09:22 PM  
Replies: 335  Southcape Resort 
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC 
Hi Russ I really hate to seem like I'm avoiding...

Hi Russ

I really hate to seem like I'm avoiding these legal questions, but the fact is, I have to. Much of what you're asking in the first paragraph is legal in nature. Some of the questions you...  
Forum: US - Eastern  April 1, 2009, 05:35 PM  
Replies: 335  Southcape Resort 
Views: 7,618 Posted By NEVMSLLC 
OK, Eric, I guess you're not coming to visit. ...

OK, Eric, I guess you're not coming to visit. Here we go:

1. Every owner I've spoken or communicated with about the issue knows that NEVS is not obligated to pay maintenance fees or assessments. ... _

Now I know why the red flags went up when Cliff Hagberg gave me that nonsensical answer to my question about the inventory on the IVS website.  I knew I had to take everything he said with more than a grain of salt.

If anyone should be taking legal action against anyone, I'm considering taking it against the TUG Administrator who edited Hagberg's, tombo's, and my posts.  Now I can't trust anything I read here.  And to think that I was thinking that I might just be going a wee bit crazy!

Believe me, I'm more than an *unhappy* Southcape owner.  I'm sorry I ever came to visit back in the 80s!


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> IIf anyone should be taking legal action against anyone, I'm considering taking it against the TUG Administrator who edited Hagberg's, tombo's, and my posts.



Sou13 - as you know there is a post in the About TUG BBS forum on this topic. I think it is best to chalk it up to the fact that BBS Mods are not immune to smooth talkers either, and move on.


----------



## Sou13

*I replied and now he wants to close the discussion*



ecwinch said:


> Sou13 - as you know there is a post in the About TUG BBS forum on this topic. I think it is best to chalk it up to the fact that BBS Mods are not immune to smooth talkers either, and move on.




I replied and now he wants to close the discussion and I don't trust him not to edit any of my posts.
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94987&goto=newpost


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## tombo

Since Cliff's post that he got edited has been reposted in it's original glory, I wouldn't be surprised if he took his ball and went home. He told the moderator that his lawyer said that he should remove the post as I surmised his lawyer would.I bet the lawyer was not happy with the contents of that post coming from a Trustee and CEO.

 In my opinion he has opened the door to letting people out of their contracts even after the recission period has ended. Supposedly you can't enforce contracts in a random manner, you supposedly have to enforce them unilaterally and each and every time. Lawyers will decide whether others can get out in the future or not. If I had purchased and wanted out, I would call Outfield immediatelly and ask to be released from the sale. I would document times, dates, and what was said. If they wouldn't return my week and money i would give all details to an attorney to see what he could do and I would give him a copy of the post stating that Outfield and Festiva had let others out after the recission period. In fact the NEVMS CEO and Outfield trustee told a buyer to call outfield and tell them that they didn't want it and he was certain that they would cancel.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> Since Cliff's post that he got edited has been reposted in it's original glory, I wouldn't be surprised if he took his ball and went home.



I certainly hope that is not the case. I've learned a lot from the discussions on both sides. Yeah, he talks from his perspective...yeah, he spins, but he gave a lot of interesting info as well. I think we can ferret out a lot of the sales opinion from fact on our own. When he calls Outfield Marketing one of the best sales and marketing companies in the country, you gotta pretty much figure he is going to say that as the developer who hired them and profits by their sales. What's neat is being able to take that statement and juxtapose it with one resort and two major forums all decrying the practices of Outfield...and have it read and hyperlink all in the same post!

What's in it for Cliff? I think there are perhaps more than a few Southcape and Sandcastle lurkers here...I don't believe that the 8,000 views are from people who own time shares in the Hawaii. To the extent that he gets things ironed out in this forum, he gets some of the groundwork laid for his upcoming meetings at both properties from the comfort of his computer. And, owners get answers too...might not always be the answers they want, but this forum has gone a long way toward answering why and how Southcape owners got assesments on blank letterhead for hundreds of dollars.

It's also educated a bunch of us who do not own at Southcape, but are VERY interested in the issues facing the properties, because we might be faced with the very same issues at Southcape or some property like it someday.

So post on, Tombo, Sou, Cliff, Russ, the Erics, Sanford and others. Let's keep the learning going.


----------



## ecwinch

For me, the cautionary tale is to always determine if the resort has an owner elected board. If it does not, then you can almost always assume that the resort is still under developer control. So the checklist goes:

- Does the resort have an owner elected board
- Is the resort still under developer control
- What percentage of the vote does the developer control
- Check by-laws to determine when developer control will expire

I was floored when I learned that this was a resort that was built 30 years ago and was still under developer control. You would think that to be impossible. And then when it came out that there was a substantial amount of developer inventory not contributing to m/f or assessments, I just could not believe it. Then to have it compounded with by-laws that would prevent owners from ever having control -- unfathomable.

By and large, I think this is just reflective of the relative maturity of the timeshare industry. This situation really cries out for some legislative relief in Mass., as it violates numerous basic tenets of property ownership.  Other states have statues that specifically terminate developer control a set number of years after the public offering/development plan is filed.

Like others have mentioned - I have learned a lot in this thread. Had no idea something like this could exist. I feel sorry for all you happy owners here and at Sandcastle.


----------



## Sou13

*Let's take a closer look at this*

I've posted this before and it merits another look.  Go to 
http://www.assessedvalues.com/search.zhtml?jurcode=172
Enter "950" in Loc1 and "Falmouth" in "Location"

Entry 6996 shows that on Dec. 7, 1989, the Town of Mashpee acquired a parcel valued at $2.5 million from "First American Bank For" and in later years added smaller parcels to the land seized from Southcape Resort.

Here's a hypothetical scenario.  Barth and Woods bought the developer rights but had the parcel on which those rights could be exercised seized by the Town of Mashpee.  All further development stopped but Southcape II never sold out and Barth and Woods finally let Southcape fall into the possession of NEVS.

Meanwhile, NEVS didn't exist when Cliff Hagberg tried on numerous occasions to purchase the developer rights from Barth and Woods.  Neither did the Festiva Adventure Club.

Somehow NEVS came up with $1.5 million to purchase the developer rights from Barth and Woods and they finally let Cliff Hagberg get possession of those rights.  Did Cliff Hagberg know then that the Town of Mashpee had seized the parcel on which those rights could have been exercised?  

From my telephone conversation with Cliff Hagberg I got the impression that finding this out may have taken him by surprise.  If it did, why should I trust NEVS and Outfield Marketing to be making decisions for Southcape Resort?

What if the Board of Trustees meets and decides to assess the owners for enough money to buy back that parcel of land so that the "developer" can build more than 100 additional units?

Oh, and the Board was supposed to be meeting sometime either at the end of March or early April.


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> I
> Somehow NEVS came up with $1.5 million to purchase the developer rights from Barth and Woods and they finally let Cliff Hagberg get possession of those rights.



Sou, do you know any details on the $1.5? If NEVS has any cashflow problems on a loan, how can unit owners be assured they won't be paying the loan for those 500 units? I know Cliff hopes to sell the units, but they are not even getting $1 for Southcape units on Ebay. Prior to the collapse of the banking system in Sept the $1.5 deal might have looked like a slam-dunk for NEVS...but that was another time and another economy.


----------



## Sou13

*Worth investigating*



Fig said:


> Sou, do you know any details on the $1.5? If NEVS has any cashflow problems on a loan, how can unit owners be assured they won't be paying the loan for those 500 units? I know Cliff hopes to sell the units, but they are not even getting $1 for Southcape units on Ebay. Prior to the collapse of the banking system in Sept the $1.5 deal might have looked like a slam-dunk for NEVS...but that was another time and another economy.



This is why I'm so suspicious of the whole deal, especially with two principals of Outfield Marketing being appointed to the Board.  I suppose this is "classified" info or whatever way C. H. can use to not answer these questions.

I had some more concerns to raise that were keeping me awake at night but Mr. Hagberg is offline at the moment.  Is March Madness over?

BTW it was nearly impossible for one of the two Steve's to not be booted off Dancing With the Stars.


----------



## ecwinch

If you read back through the applicable posts, you will see that the strategy is a "sales" driven approach. A well-managed and focused sales strategy when properly executed will "create" the market, increasing demand and in turn the sales price.

See the post indicating success when the sales price of units were increased tenfold, and the issues other resorts have had once this "sales driven" approach no longer was used at the resort.


----------



## Sou13

*Sold to the highest bidder?*

I'm serously considering offering my week to Cliff Hagberg for $10,000 after I've used my reserved time for 2009.  That's how happy I am with the new face of Southcape Resort.


----------



## ecwinch

*Part II - "I think it is genius"*

First keep in mind that we are working with "_the country's leading authority in timeshare resales_". So once you realize that, all the rest falls into place.

 And you know, if you pull back at look at his plan, you do have to admire the cunning of it:

1) Acquire the Developer rights at a 30-year old resort with "_no single controlling document_" regarding owner rights.
2) Improve the resort with assessments that only the current owners pay. Your *DEVELOPER* inventory is exempt from paying these costs.
3) Then begin marketing those weeks back to the owners that have paid to improve them, and at greatly increased prices.

I think this post spells out his plan:



NEVMSLLC said:


> I may be the* country's leading authority in timeshare resales*.  Check me out on the internet with a Google search.  At resort after resort, our sales breakdown pretty much like this.  *60% to existing owners* and owner referrals, 20% to exchangers, 10% to renters and about 10% from miscellaneous sources.



So essentially, the owners who fix it up will get the chance to buy more units at inflated prices. And what rubes they are. If they had seen the hand-writing on the wall, they could of got that week at 10% of future value. Here is the post regarding his success in doing that at Oceancliff:



NEVMSLLC said:


> when I first began a resale program at the Oceancliff in Newport, RI, the board was trying to sell association owned summer weeks for $800 and hadn't been able to sell any of them. Why would they? Owners had paid well over $10,000 when they bought in the 1980's. The first thing I did was raise the price to $8,000.



and at Brewster Green:



NEVMSLLC said:


> How about the fact that I sell delinquent weeks at Brewster Green as high as $18,000 and the Ponds at Foxhollow as high as $22,000? I say again, maybe I could benefit your resorts as well?



Now those resorts may be true "gems" - I do not know. But when I think what can be purchased for that amount - hmmh.

And it gets better. Because if you stop having this *DEVELOPER* involved in resales, then the resort goes back into decline as noted here:



NEVMSLLC said:


> Did you like what happened to Oceancliff after I sold all of the association weeks and the board thought they didn't need sales anymore?  Did you like the special assessment you had a few years ago?  Do you know how many delinquent owners your resort has now that I'm not there to sell for them anymore?  Last I knew it was over 800 weeks not paying maintenance fees.   Care to ask where Brewster Green was before they brought in professional management and me to do resales?



In all, I truly want to thank Cliff for participating. This has been an eye-opening experience and it is enlightening to see how *DEVELOPERS* view their customers. I apologize to all the SC owners who feel I might be bickering with Cliff and have diverted Cliff from his intended purpose of addressing the "_number of untruths and misrepresentations that have appeared on this board_ ".

In the hope that Cliff will return to address questions from "*owners*" I will step out of this thread.

Thanks to all - it has been educational.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

*Thanks Eric*

My thanks to you as well, Eric.  It would have been fun to have these discussions face to face instead of days going by between posts.  I've learned a lot as well.

I hope you don't mind one parting jab that I mean only as good fun.  Aristotle, who pretty much invented the syllogism would have called this faulty reasoning because the major premise might not be universally true. I say might because I hope you would agree that it's at least possible that there might be one developer somewhere in the world who isn't evil!  The major premise being the first statement:

All developers are evil
Cliff is a developer
Therefore, Cliff is evil!

:whoopie: 

Don't you just love Michigan State??

Cliff


----------



## ecwinch

I was going to ride off in the sunset, but you are making it tough. So this will be my finally post. Feel free to get the last word in.

I will agree that there is one - and probably more than one - honest developer in the world. I notice that you are not claiming that title (sorry - had to return fire).

However if this is the definition of a honest developer:

- Avoids paying m/f and assessments on his inventory due to a dated development plan that provides him with that right
- Avoids having owner representation as voting members of the board, because that is his right
- Has business partners who have demonstrated a lack of ethical conduct, and been fined by various state agencies for this conduct, but continues to engage them as business partners

Then I think you win the argument. And as you well know the reverse logic is equally faulty:

Some developers are honest/good
Cliff is a developer
Cliff is honest/good

As they say - "We All Are Judged by the Company We Keep". For the benefit of the people who own at Southcape I hope you are what you say you are. Time will tell. I really hope to come back to this thread in a year, and read all the posts of happy SC owners. I sincerely mean that.

Till then.


----------



## Sou13

*Keeping us awake at night?*

It looks as though I may not be the only one having trouble sleeping nights because of this new wrinkle in timeshare ownership at Southcape after nearly a quarter century of blissful ignorance.

Eric, you have contributed too much to this discussion to go away for a year!  I hope you have a change of heart!

I've overextended my online time at the library today and may be booted off at any moment so I can't post anything substantive until I have more time, possibly tomorrow.  For now I'm trying to figure out how to save posts so that I'll have the original when someone succeeds in getting a moderator to edit my quotes.  If I could go back to February 5th and edit all my own posts I might look a lot more savvy.  Now if only I knew which posts were "untruths" I could correct them!


----------



## Russ45

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Russ
> 
> I have your letter and haven't answered it yet as I've been out of work for the past week or so.  I will answer when I get back to work.  Even then, I can't comment on legal issues or pending litigation.
> 
> Actually, the election of a board is a matter of legal interpretation and i'll try to give you an idea of the scope of the problem.  There are several conflicting condo docs at Southcape, all of which were written prior to the adoption of MGL 183B.  Are they grandfathered?  If so, which one prevails?  Are they not grandfathered and do they have to be amended?  These questions should have been answered twenty years ago but never were.  We're addressing these issues and, until they're resolved, I just can't give you definitive answers.


Cliff, I am only familiar with the Master Deed as the controlling document of the Resort. What are the other documents you are referring to and how may I obtain them?


----------



## Sou13

*It looks as though he chose not to answer*



Russ45 said:


> Cliff, I am only familiar with the Master Deed as the controlling document of the Resort. What are the other documents you are referring to and how may I obtain them?



Russ, I didn't want to post today until you had an answer to this one, but I always check who's online and he was just a few minutes ago but it looks as though he chose not to answer.

Giving us a link to an outdated Master Deed may make Cliff Hagberg look good but he'd look even better if he gave us access to the updates!


----------



## Sou13

*Outfield Marketing*

Outfield Marketing Ltd.

Thomas C Franks RRP 
President 


135 E Hickory Street 

Denton, TX 76201-4215 

Ph: (443) 994-4581 
Fx: (410) 295-5486


----------



## e.bram

I'm on thr Cape(surfside)this week. I drove by Southcape  and is almost completely empty. Who is paying any MFs? Looks like the TS will eventully go belly up and sold off as full time condos.


----------



## Russ45

Sou13 said:


> Russ, I didn't want to post today until you had an answer to this one, but I always check who's online and he was just a few minutes ago but it looks as though he chose not to answer.
> 
> Giving us a link to an outdated Master Deed may make Cliff Hagberg look good but he'd look even better if he gave us access to the updates!


I don't know if it's outdated since the Association is still in effect as far as I know and it takes a vote to change the master deed or sell it so the Association doesn't exist (my interpretation anyway).  Some of the master deed's requirements are far outdated and should be changed in my view, such as the vote for any capital improvements over $10,000.  You can't even refurnish a unit for under $10,000.


----------



## Sou13

*Cancelled contracts?*

How to Cancel My Timeshare Contract
Cancel timeshare outside your rescission period. We'll do it for you.
www.theownersadvocate.com


----------



## Sou13

*The Owners' Advocate*

We are an advocacy group assisting consumers who have become disillusioned by the vacation ownership and timeshare industry. Every day we see the financial hardship and emotional distress caused by contracts that were misrepresented. 

An overwhelming number of these complaints allege that timeshare sales representatives falsely promised that owning a timeshare serves as an investment for financial gain. Timeshare owners are often led to believe that they can profit through selling or renting their timeshares. After purchasing a timeshare or vacation ownership product, consumers encounter unexpected and hidden fees, difficult and unobtainable reservations, and disappointing and often disastrous accommodations. 

*Mission Statement:The Owners’ Advocate will provide assistance and resources to consumers battling fraud and misrepresentation within the timeshare and vacation ownership industry. *

*Where Can You Turn?*

The Owners’ Advocate works to prevent deceptive practices within the timeshare and vacation ownership industry and to rectify situations in which consumers allege these practices have occurred. 

While there is very little government regulation of the timeshare industry, there is almost no regulation at all of the so-called “secondary” market for timeshare products. We strongly advise all consumers to use caution when approaching this market. The Owners’ Advocate has received many complaints about companies soliciting consumers with promises of “quick and easy relief” from obligations associated with timeshare or vacation ownership. Often at a substantial financial loss, consumers find that they been intentionally misled yet again. 

Misrepresentation and fraud are serious violations of law that can be redressed with the help of an attorney. We do not discourage you from seeking legal counsel—however we are aware that for many consumers an attorney simply is not an option. The American Bar Association has estimated that at least thirty-eight million Americans go without legal assistance every year because of financial barriers to legal service. And while The Owners’ Advocate is not a law firm, we are still able to assist consumers effectively with legitimate grievances against the timeshare or vacation ownership industry. 

If you purchased or upgraded a timeshare and believe you have been a victim of misrepresentation and fraud, there is hope. We can help! 


*Affiliates*

The Owners' Advocate is affiliated with a wide number of federal agencies serving the best interests of our citizens such as the Federal Trade Commission, the Real Estate Commissions, Bar Associations and Attorney Generals for all fifty states, as well as private agencies such as the Better Business Bureau and Timeshare Accountability Group. They endorse our efforts to protect consumers from all walks of life who have been preyed upon by the timeshare and vacation ownership industry.

We know that their show of support for The Owners' Advocate will instill in you the confidence you need to let us help you. Call our help desk and speak directly to one of our caring associates. They will listen to your story and determine if we may be able to have your timeshare contract terminated and achieve the outcome you deserve.

http://www.theownersadvocate.com/the_owners_advocate_profile_1.php


----------



## Sou13

*Vacations for Life: Too Good to Be True?*

The Federal Trade Commission says the travel, vacations and timeshare industry was in its top 10 complaint categories in 2007.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Story?id=4627886&page=2

File a Complaint


----------



## jjette

*Cliff/Outfield*

Cliff, I am surprised to hear you say that you have not had any complaints of outfield marketing from any Southcape owners.   I guess I will be the first!

Imagine Cliff being the owner of a resort at Southcape and he first purchased in 1982 for a small price.   Cliff's entire family has used the resorts for countless trips to Disney, Juno Beach, Hawaii many times, Island resorts, etc etc.   Cliff and his family have stayed at 4/5 star resorts around the country with one trip valued at the cost of what he originally paid for the time sharing unit at southcape.

Cliff is happy about his purchase, no question

In the mail arrives a $400 special assessment, understandable, the resort is 30 years old, needs a septic system, roofs, siding, wireless internet, gym, so it is paid.

Here comes Outfield Marketing and parachutes in a smoothe talking Texan to tell Cliff about a wonderful idea he has.   So Cliff, you have had this unit since 1982, you have used it quite often, I can show you a way not to pay this assessement in the future.  Sell me your unit back to new owners because it is worthless, but I will need a check for $3000 as well and you can have these points here to use for your vacations going forward!!!! are you serious, what a deal for Cliff, where do I sign.

Come on Cliff I am being sarcastic yes.   Outfield Marketing was appointed by NEVS not to give me options but to deliver me scare tactics in every aspect to gain my unit back.   WHY Cliff?  Its an off week in December, yes I am on off-week owner and by gollie I do pay my taxes and have never been delinquent.  You want my unit and my 3k to make 3k plus the money from selling my unit or a commission from Festiva, why come after my unit, why not sell the unsold units you have already??

Outfield Marketing is the most unprofessional sales organization I have ever seen.  Its not the salesperson at all.  This guy was and is probably a decent human being.   What is wrong is the direction the salesperson is getting and that is from NEVS.   

Higher maintenance fees
No value/Ebay for a buck of the unit
More Assessments 
Trouble trading weeks
No information left behind

Being Sarcastic again.

Cliff changes his mind is says " let me think about selling you my unit, giving up ownership and a check for $3000.00 for points "  do you have a business card?  No well I dont, I dont have any material to leave you, but you can go on a website!!!!!!!!

Take my $400 Cliff for the special assessment, fix the place up like you plan, sell the unsold units for your 8K, my family will keep the unit for our vacations and we will all be happy....


----------



## Sou13

*Done deed*

We have received your complaint. Thank you for contacting the FTC. Your complaint has been entered into Consumer Sentinel, a secure online database available to thousands of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies worldwide. Your reference number is: ()

If you want to update your information or have any questions, please call our Consumer Response Center, 1-877-FTC-HELP. Keep your reference number handy.


----------



## bobcat

Sou13 said:


> We have received your complaint. Thank you for contacting the FTC. Your complaint has been entered into Consumer Sentinel, a secure online database available to thousands of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies worldwide. Your reference number is: ()
> 
> If you want to update your information or have any questions, please call our Consumer Response Center, 1-877-FTC-HELP. Keep your reference number handy.



If Cliff loves Southcape so much, why not purchase back at a fair price from the owners their units. I have been an owner from 1982. I have seen several changes I did not sign up for. After you purchase, somebody or new owners make changes on the week you own.  Buy everybody out. It is not the same timeshare that I feel in love with. Cliff, buy me OUT... Bobcat.


----------



## Sou13

*Stumbled across a goldmine of complaints*

I have just stumbled across a website that's a goldmine of complaints about Festiva.  It's found at http://festiva-resorts.pissedconsumer.com/


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> I have just stumbled across a website that's a goldmine of complaints about Festiva.  It's found at http://festiva-resorts.pissedconsumer.com/



Finding web sites with complaints about Festiva and Outfield marketing is easy. If you want a challenge look for a web site where owners are singing Festiva's or Outfield's praises.


----------



## jjette

*Festiva*

It appears all connected.   NEVS buys Southcape.   NEVS uses the special assessment to get to Festiva standards.  Yes this improves our resort look, but in all retrospect it simply allows Southcape to now be in the Festiva club as one of the 24 resorts nationally.

For outfield marketing to successfully sell points to buyers they need to clear titles and make available space where their Festiva members can vacation on the cape.

I cant imagine the full court press Outfield is making on owners in weeks during June through September; let alone off weeks that are typically used for trade.

So Outfield uses these tactics to have us released from deed, they collect the $3000, then go out to market (re-sell) to a new point owner for whatever they can get.   I would imagine big money if its a summer week.

Yes, I know by joining Festiva you still have RCI or II, but think of what they could sell a cape cod unit in the summer month for.   This brings me to my original post is that you owners who have a summer week on the cape are sitting on what NEVS wants and that is the ability to re-sell your unit for a very good price; especially after it is refurbished. 

Regardless of whether this resort has not been turned over to a owners assocation, you have to wonder if they can legally slap assessments without showing due cause and raise maintenance fees beyond the means to run the resort.

I would think like anything else you have owners and renters ( points ) as a market for time sharing, but at southcape it appears they want the owners out and a point system in place.   

I am not sure whether my post is factual or not its just what seems to be on the surface here.  One thing that really haunts me today is the outfield marketing lead sheet left behind ( I lied in my previous post as this is what they left behind ) it was a lead generation sheet, yes I was lead when I called to inquire about the SA.   One of the questions on the sheet was whether I was retired or not!!  I am not but but it bothers me to this day that a question like that is on a lead generation sheet.


----------



## Sou13

*More search results*

Yesterday I found a complaint about Festiva or Outfield Marketing that must have been on another site than the one I gave.  Looking for it today I found this:

greg hughes

sales mgr, outfield marketing

I'll keep on looking for that complaint but as tombo has posted it's harder to find rave reviews than it is to find complaints.


----------



## Fig

Sorry...computer froze and this went thru twice.


----------



## Fig

jjette said:


> Outfield Marketing was appointed by NEVS not to give me options but to deliver me scare tactics in every aspect to gain my unit back.   WHY Cliff?  Its an off week in December, yes I am on off-week owner and by gollie I do pay my taxes and have never been delinquent...Outfield Marketing is the most unprofessional sales organization I have ever seen.



This is what I can't quite fathom. Perhaps some of you on the board have some insight. Why send the Outfield Marketing folks with their scare tactics at your most secure form of cash flow in a recession? 

As the story of Festiva and Outfield gets around, less and less people will be interested in points with Festiva in general. With people walking away from mortgages on their primary homes who is going to buy a "points only" deal on a timeshare? So, you give up a secure deeded income stream from a loyal person like jjette in the hopes you can replace it with a points deal in the middle of a recession? Once these deeded folks convert to points and have a bad experience or wake up to what they have lost(and there are plenty of accounts out there to research) look for them to walk away. 

Or, look for them to wake up before the fact and get ticked off at the changes and resell their deed on Ebay for $1. Then, look for the new owner to balk at the rising MFs and hounding to convert to points and walk. 

I just don't see this whole house of cards working in this economy. A little while back when cash was cheap and cash flow was good...maybe, now, not seein' it. In my mind, Outfield is just eating away at the most secure stream of cashflow of a resort at the most inopportune time. But, maybe, I'm not seeing something.

Hope this all works out for you jj and all others posting to this board and perhaps more reading, who have been longtime and loyal (paying) members of Southcape.


----------



## jjette

*Outfield*

Fig, to answer your question.   Even though I relinquish my deed and join Festiva, I still pay a similar maintenance fee.   That is what Outfield told us.

Perhaps I dont get hit with anymore SA of $400, but you could if one of the 24 resorts is hit with a catastrophe.

Its freeing up ownership to create more point owners that will pay MF's.

Its simply all about maintenance fees and how to get more into the system to generate income at the expense of long-time owners...OMG is a maintenance fee generating machine, nothing more,nothing less.


----------



## Fig

jjette said:


> Fig, to answer your question.   Even though I relinquish my deed and join Festiva, I still pay a similar maintenance fee.   That is what Outfield told us.



That sounds like what they are trying to achieve in theory, jjette, But, who is more likely to default, a points owner with no fixed week or a deeded owner who knows he or she is guaranteed a given week at a given resort? In theory you can replace deeds by selling more points...but I just don't see it happening in this economy. People aren't buying cars or houses...who the heck is going to shell out thousands for points? And once the former deeded owners see the points deal for what it is, I think a good percentage of them will want to bail. Holding on to nearly worthless points isn't nearly as compelling as a deed, IMHO.

This economy is sure to test this points idea, big time.


----------



## Sou13

*Cause for concern*



jjette said:


> Regardless of whether this resort has not been turned over to a owners assocation, you have to wonder if they can legally slap assessments without showing due cause and raise maintenance fees beyond the means to run the resort..



Did you get to look over those email attachments before letting the Outfield Marketer come to your house?  Were they helpful?

We need an owners' association and *we need it now!*


----------



## Sou13

*Reviewing that telephone conversation with Cliff Hagberg*

As I try to accurately report that February 24th telephone conversation with Cliff Hagberg, I recall him telling me that the weeks that NEVS owns are not for sale.  I also recall him telling me that he does not intend to stay on at Southcape forever and that he intends to turn the resort over to (?) when the resort has been upgraded (?)

The reason I have never been able to accurately report that telephone conversation could be that my emotional reactions have clouded my memory.  I was trying to keep the conversation going and had to keep it as pleasant as possible in order to do that.

But I didn't feel reassured and the more I find out about NEVS, FAC and Outfield Marketing the more alarmed I become.  I find it hard to believe that Cliff Hagberg didn't know what he was doing when he formed NEVS and teamed up with Festiva and Outfield Marketing.

As "developer" manager of Southcape, NEVS controls 500 votes.  Festiva controls the votes of weeks turned over to the "trust" but who controls the remaining votes?  The 2009 budget is based on MFs paid by either 1800+ or 1600+ interval weeks owned, whether they are paid by deeded owners or the Festiva trust.  The resort has 51x55=2805 weeks but only 2100+ or 2300+ weeks eligible to vote, depending on whether the $50 reserve was counted in the collectible MFs.  Who gets those remaining votes?  Do they belong to a non-existent owners' association, NEVS, or the Festiva trust?

Cliff Hagberg has danced around answering these questions.  I know there are Southcape owners who are reading these posts but not replying, and I hope there are non-TUG guests who are also looking for info aabout Festiva, Outfield Marketing, and NEVS.

Southcape owners, if you share my concern and alarm about these developments I implore you to express them in writing to the Board of Trustees.  You might want to address a copy to the Massachusetts Attorney General.

Former Southcape owners who have turned your deeds over to FAC, if you now feel that you've been scammed, you might want to turn to the Owners' Advocate for advice and assistance.

I've filed a complaint about Outfield Marketing's scare tactics with the FTC.  Join the chorus!  File a Complaint!


----------



## ecwinch

Has Cliff taken his mouse and gone home?

I had thought by my dropping out of the thread, that he would stick around to answer questions from owners and clear up misunderstandings. But I see he has not answered any of the questions from owners since I left. But I see him on the board from time to time, so he is checking the board.

Sorry if I chased him off. I guess clearing up the misunderstandings was tougher then he thought it would be.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Gee Eric

I thought you had left as well.  I haven't responded because I haven't been asked any questions.  Frankly, the misunderstandings are so numerous, it's hard to even know where to begin.  If a Southcape owner does have a question, I'm happy to answer it as long as it's not in the legal area.

Cliff


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Has Cliff taken his mouse and gone home?
> 
> I had thought by my dropping out of the thread, that he would stick around to answer questions from owners and clear up misunderstandings. But I see he has not answered any of the questions from owners since I left. But I see him on the board from time to time, so he is checking the board.
> 
> Sorry if I chased him off. I guess clearing up the misunderstandings was tougher then he thought it would be.



It is much easier to spin and misinform people who have no facts to refute the sales pitch. In the Owner's updates it is a salesman with a tried and proven script of half truths using scare tactics and high pressure on owners who have purchased one timeshare in their life a decade or more ago. They don't know what changes have occurred in the industry or at their resort. They assume that he is telling them the truth that he represents a good company, that everyone is swapping to points, that if they don't pay to swap that they won't be able to use what they own at all anymore, and that they will pay less each year in fees if they swap. They operate like con men IMO gaining trust to fleece people out of money.

On TUG we own multiple weeks at multiple resorts. We research prices, trends, and developers before we purchase. We have heard about every timeshare sale line in the book. It is hard to trick people who are informed thanks to TUG and the internet.

10 years ago we couldn't have gotten together to swap information and do research like we can today. Don't you know that people (like timeshare developers) who make a living by preying on the uninformed hate the internet.
I bet we know a developer that hates the net and TUG a lot.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

You're right tombo.  I know a couple of developers that hate tug and the internet as well.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> You're right tombo.  I know a couple of developers that hate tug and the internet as well.



It is so nice that we have made up and are talking again. You missed me didn't you? Go ahead, you can admit it.

I am curious, do you see one of those developers that hate TUG and the internet when you look in the mirror while you are shaving? I was just wondering which developers you were referring to. I sure hope that question didn't break us up again right after we made up. Relationships are so hard to maintain.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Gee Eric
> 
> I thought you had left as well.  I haven't responded because I haven't been asked any questions.  Frankly, the misunderstandings are so numerous, it's hard to even know where to begin.  If a Southcape owner does have a question, I'm happy to answer it as long as it's not in the legal area.
> 
> Cliff



Glad to see your back. I guess we have a yin-yang relationship, since you only post when I do. 

Sorry - I thought Russ45, bobcat, and jjette where owners.  

And for old time sakes, you could always answer my question on who are the respective law firms that reviewed the transfer of control, and who did they represent. I do not think that is a legal question.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi tombo

I could never break up with you!! I'm just trying to figure out why I talk to you when you're not even an owner here????

I don't hate tug.  I've known Bill for years and was part of tug off and on for the last 15 years or so. I think it's a great forum and that's why I'm here.  I do, however, know developers that aren't overly fond of the forums here, I'm just not one of them.

And don't worry, I'll still respect you in the morning . . .


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi tombo
> And don't worry, I'll still respect you in the morning . . .



It is the implications of what you did to him the evening before that I would be worried about.....:whoopie:

I thought you only did that to owners....  (sorry could not resist extending your analogy)


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Funny Eric how I seem to have a relationship with you and Tombo and neither of you even own at Southcape.  Why don't you buy a week and I'll answer all of your questions?

I understand what you think is happening to owners here but all you've heard from is less than a handful out of thousands.  Jumping to conclusions perhaps?  I'm disappointed in you . . .


----------



## ecwinch

Cliff

I was only extending your analogy. You made the analogy, not I.

For the record, to date I do not think you have taken any inappropriate action at Southcape - with one caveat - your relationship with Outfield. You have simply replaced a developer that was doing nothing to make the resort better, and assumed his rights.

I think you are taking positive steps at the resort, and the owners will benefit from the improvements you have implemented. They will bear a disapportionate amount of the expense, but will clearly benefit.

I think I have outlined why I think the situation is inequitable, given the rights you possess. If you would relinquish or restrict some of those rights, I would consider owning at this resort. In the absence of doing so,  even if we were to trust you, the sword hanging over the owners head still exists. 

And since those rights could easily transfer to someone else who is less trustworthy, the peril still exists.

And there is the unanswered question of how will you recoup your investment.  I know you are too smart to have made that investment without a plan.

My caveat above is your relationship with Outfield. I think there have been sufficient posts in this thread to see that all is not right there.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> I do, however, know developers that aren't overly fond of the forums here, I'm just not one of them.



Those developers, like the publishers of encyclopedia's, will soon be marginalize if they have fail to adapt to the age we live in. The pool of uninformed consumers is decreasing exponentially, and unless they adjust their model, they will be irrevelant in the near future.

On that note, I give you credit. More developers should embrace this model and have representation on TUG. If they cannot make their case here, then they are doomed  to failure.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> And don't worry, I'll still respect you in the morning . . .




Oh crap! Did I get drunk and buy something?


----------



## bobcat

tombo said:


> Oh crap! Did I get drunk and buy something?



I sent an email to Southcape weeks ago. I received an answer that they would email me back. It is a good thing I did not wait by my computer for a reply. Still no email. I requested to have them buy my week  no answer.  I am a happy owner... READ MY LIPS    NO. Maybe it is time for the owners to do a Boston Tea Party. Request to have them purchase our weeks.


----------



## Sou13

*Is this what you call giving 21 days' notice?*

April. 1, 2009

Dear Friends: 

Another seemingly endless winter is slowly giving way to spring here on Cape Cod. The ocean breezes grow noticeably warmer each week. Spring, the season of renewal and anticipation, is always special to us here at the resort, but this year itisa particularly exciting time. Indeed, SouthCape is quite the hive of activity at the moment. Leaking roofs and decayed wood are being replaced, and there is already fresh new siding and paint on many of the buildings. Having struggled for the past four years, with inadequate resources, to catch up on long-overdue maintenance, I find it very heartening to see this work finally getting done. We are deeply grateful for your understanding, and your quick response to the special assessment, as it has made all of this possible. It is truly a fresh start for SouthCape. 

Many of you have called to express your negative feelings about the timing of the assessment, given the current state of our economy. We completely understand these feelings. However, it is the unfortunate state of our economy that has made it possible to have this work done at a relatively reasonable cost. It has also meant that we can get it done within a shorter time frame, and thereby minimize any disruption to your use of the resort. We are currently focusing on exterior work, as this will prevent any further damage being caused by inadequate protection from the elements. Interior renovations will begin in the fall. New exercise equipment has already been installed in the workout room, and Evarist and Jim are currently busy painting the pool in preparation for the approaching busy season. 

Change rarely occurs without an element of trepidation. Understandably, many of you have expressed a certain discomfort with regards to the ending of a 20-year relationship with Mr. Barth & Mr. Woods, and their replacement with new trustees. However, the transition has been a smooth one, and the new trustees are eager to meet all of you. The upcoming annual meeting, which will be held"thisyear on May 16, at 12:00 noon, here at the resort, will provide an opportunity for you to meet the new trustees and to discuss the future of the resort with them. We hope to see you there. 

Regards, 
Rosaleen Cassidy 
Resort Manager


----------



## e.bram

Anyone wanting to be a happy Southcape owner, there is a unit for sale on Ebay with a $1.00 opening bid(no bids yet)


----------



## Sou13

*Why did he say he was here?*



bobcat said:


> I sent an email to Southcape weeks ago. I received an answer that they would email me back. It is a good thing I did not wait by my computer for a reply. Still no email. I requested to have them buy my week  no answer.  I am a happy owner... READ MY LIPS    NO. Maybe it is time for the owners to do a Boston Tea Party. Request to have them purchase our weeks.


Here's how Cliff Hagberg entered this discussion:

_My name is Cliff Hagberg and I am a trustee at Southcape Resort. I 
am concerned about a number of untruths and misrepresentations that 
have appeared on this board and i am perfectly willing to address 
issues of concern for any owner at Southcape Resort. Please 
understand that I cannot discuss legal issues nor will I respond to 
any personal attacks. Having set those ground rules, I would 
very much appreciate an opportunity to try and answer those questions 
that any owner at Southcape might have. I look forward to a fruitful 
dialog_												  #191
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=693201#post693201                      p.8

Here's how he left it:

_I'm only here because there is one owner who seems to be keeping the discussion alive by rumor and innuendo _
_Last edited by NEVMSLLC : April 2, 2009 at 11:05 AM_
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=696110#post696110

I guess we're supposed to repost all our unanswered questions?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Wrong again, Sou13.  I haven't left at all.  I'm still here.


----------



## Sou13

*Did you miss this one?*



Russ45 said:


> Cliff, I am only familiar with the Master Deed as the controlling document of the Resort. What are the other documents you are referring to and how may I obtain them?


Did you miss this one, NEVMSLLC?  Or did I miss your answer?


----------



## e.bram

Southcape owners need to hire a lawyer(or pro se) and start a legal action. You will get anything you want(sworn to) from the legal discovery process. (to which you are entitled too)


----------



## bobcat

ecwinch said:


> Glad to see your back. I guess we have a yin-yang relationship, since you only post when I do.
> 
> Sorry - I thought Russ45, bobcat, and jjette where owners.
> 
> And for old time sakes, you could always answer my question on who are the respective law firms that reviewed the transfer of control, and who did they represent. I do not think that is a legal question.



 BOBCAT is an OWNER. However, an UNHAPPY ONE.!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## bobcat

e.bram said:


> Anyone wanting to be a happy Southcape owner, there is a unit for sale on Ebay with a $1.00 opening bid(no bids yet)



E BRAM, That hurts. Maybe the price was to high. Cliff, you can purchase another week and be happy.  BETTER YET, Purchase all the owners weeks at a fair price and you will be a happy Southcape Sole Owner.


----------



## ecwinch

bobcat said:


> E BRAM, That hurts. Maybe the price was to high. Cliff, you can purchase another week and be happy.  BETTER YET, Purchase all the owners weeks at a fair price and you will be a happy Southcape Sole Owner.



That would not work very for Cliff, as he would have to pay m/f and special assessments on any weeks acquired from the resale market.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> That would not work very for Cliff, as he would have to pay m/f and special assessments on any weeks acquired from the resale market.




Don't be so sure. Cliff controls the vote, the mgt company, and I would presume he controls the other 2 trustees. He has 500 weeks he currently owns that he doesn't pay MF's or assessments on. With a good lawyer he might be able to acquire additional weeks and pay nothing on those too.


----------



## Russ45

Sou13 said:


> Did you miss this one, NEVMSLLC?  Or did I miss your answer?


I don't believe it's been answered, although if it is I would probably expect the circular argument "We can't comment on the legal documents because of the legal issues currently ongoing with the legality of the documents"


----------



## Sou13

*Southcape on eBay*



e.bram said:


> Anyone wanting to be a happy Southcape owner, there is a unit for sale on Ebay with a $1.00 opening bid(no bids yet)



Here's what happens if you win the bid:



tombo said:


> I fully agree with you on your point about high transaction costs too as I have fallen victim to this myself. An auction is close to ending with a current high bid of $199 and I am thinking that $205 would be a steal for that resort/week. I win the bid at $205 and I am so happy that I stold this week. The sellers contact me and want a check for $1404 ($205 for the auction, $499 for the closing costs, and $700 for the current years MF's). Some resorts in Mexico and other places have a resort transfer fee that can total in the $1000's. I looked at an auction where the winning bid was $1, but the buyer owed over $4000 when you added in the closing costs, MF's, and resort transfer fees.
> 
> 
> If you buy a floating week, often by the time the week is deeded to you there is no way you will get a prime week during the purchase year because all of the current owners will have already reserved them. Depending on the resort and their rules, you might not only be too late to reserve a good week for the current year, you might be too late to reserve a good week for the next year (many resorts allow owners to reserve 12 months or further in advance). So you could be paying one or even 2 years worth of MF's for years that you won't even have the opportunity to reserve a good week that you would actually use yourself.
> 
> If you go to sell that week you purchased for $205 and ended up spending $1404 for, you would lose money selling it for $505. If you sell it for $505 and make the buyer pay the closing costs, then you have sold the week for $300 more than you bought it for. If it is late in the year and they don't want the week or you have already banked it, you will eat the $700 MF's. You paid $1404, sold it for $505, you lost $900 (actually you paid $900 to stay there for a week). If they reimburse you for the MF's, they paid you $505 plus $700 (giving the buyer the use of the current week) for a total of $1205. You still lost $199 even though you technically sold it for $300 more than you paid for it, and you never even got to stay at the resort.
> 
> Transaction costs are a big expense that is often overlooked but shouldn't be. http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=701005



Welcome back, Eric and tombo!  Please don't let "Developer" Hagberg try scaring you off again!


----------



## Carolinian

Many resorts have no legal right to impose a ''resort transfer fee''.  If I wanted to buy at a resort that attempted to charge one, I would demand they show me that they had a legal right to impose it.  For a deeded resort, provisions in rules or bylaws or such are not sufficient.  They would have to be in the declaration of covenants.


----------



## Carolinian

tombo said:


> Don't be so sure. Cliff controls the vote, the mgt company, and I would presume he controls the other 2 trustees. He has 500 weeks he currently owns that he doesn't pay MF's or assessments on. With a good lawyer he might be able to acquire additional weeks and pay nothing on those too.



In North Carolina's it was developer First Flight's holding hundreds of weeks and not paying m/f's that was the legal basis of the members successful efforts to kick them out.  First Flight ended up having to deed all of those weeks over to the HOA's and in the case of one resort also pay a six figure cash payment to the HOA.


----------



## Sou13

*If we only had one!*



Carolinian said:


> In North Carolina's it was developer First Flight's holding hundreds of weeks and not paying m/f's that was the legal basis of the members successful efforts to kick them out.  First Flight ended up having to deed all of those weeks over to the HOA's and in the case of one resort also pay a six figure cash payment to the HOA.



If we had an HOA we might be able to do something about this situation.

BTW I didn't realize that when it looks as though you're awake in the night posting to TUG, it's morning in your part of the world!


----------



## Carolinian

Sou13 said:


> If we had an HOA we might be able to do something about this situation.
> 
> BTW I didn't realize that when it looks as though you're awake in the night posting to TUG, it's morning in your part of the world!



When members first started organizing at the four First Flight resorts, they had developer-controlled HOA boards.  The first step was to take over those HOA's from the developer.

When I think of a ''subsequent developer'' I think of the former Bodie Island Beach Club.  The antics of the ''subsequent developer'' there crashed that timeshare and it is no longer around.  Subsequnet developers are often worse than the original developer.  I would have absolutely zero interest in owning at a rssort controlled by one of them.


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## Sou13

*Well, I do own a week!*



ecwinch said:


> Cliff
> 
> I was only extending your analogy. You made the analogy, not I.
> 
> For the record, to date I do not think you have taken any inappropriate action at Southcape - with one caveat - your relationship with Outfield. You have simply replaced a developer that was doing nothing to make the resort better, and assumed his rights.
> 
> I think you are taking positive steps at the resort, and the owners will benefit from the improvements you have implemented. They will bear a disapportionate amount of the expense, but will clearly benefit.
> 
> I think I have outlined why I think the situation is inequitable, given the rights you possess. If you would relinquish or restrict some of those rights, I would consider owning at this resort. In the absence of doing so,  even if we were to trust you, the sword hanging over the owners head still exists.
> 
> And since those rights could easily transfer to someone else who is less trustworthy, the peril still exists.
> 
> *And there is the unanswered question of how will you recoup your investment. * I know you are too smart to have made that investment without a plan.
> 
> My caveat above is your relationship with Outfield. I think there have been sufficient posts in this thread to see that all is not right there.



I've owned a week for nearly a quarter of a century so if owning a week is the prerequisite for getting these questions answered, now you have it!


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## ecwinch

Cliff,

You seem to have stopped posting. Hope all is well, and you are just busy.

When you return, could you answer the following:

When you first appeared here, you wanted to clear up some "untruths" and "misrepresentations". Can you expand on what untruths and misrepresentations that you were referrring to?

Thanks


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## NEVMSLLC

Hi Eric

All is well and I am very busy!  I'm not going to go through the 400+ posts and try to correct every thing.  I don't find a lot of Southcape owners on here with concerns.  Most of the recent posts are coming from people who don't even own at the resort, with one exception.

However, just to give you an example, Sou13 posted that I had purchased my week at Southcape on Ebay for $1.00.  I have never purchased a week on Ebay for any resort.

Cliff


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## bobcat

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Eric
> 
> All is well and I am very busy!  I'm not going to go through the 400+ posts and try to correct every thing.  I don't find a lot of Southcape owners on here with concerns.  Most of the recent posts are coming from people who don't even own at the resort, with one exception.
> 
> However, just to give you an example, Sou13 posted that I had purchased my week at Southcape on Ebay for $1.00.  I have never purchased a week on Ebay for any resort.
> 
> Cliff



I think you need to do your math again. Unhappy owner. But I guess when you do not answer email that is  O. K.  We should take a poll of happy owners since you bought weeks at Southcape. Also, unhappy ones.


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## SCapeOwnersRUS

*Message to Cliff Hagberg Nevs et al.*

Cliff,
I AM an owner at Southcape, and have read the string and posts with dismay.

Without anytongue and cheek cuteness simply and please answer and address the following:

1) How is it appropriate for you and Outfield Marketing to be in partnertship together, and if not PLEASE ONCE AND FOR ALL DEFINE YOUR RELATIONSHIP FACTUALLY ?

2) What is the motivation for the hired guns or "partners" of NEVS (Outfield Marketing et. al.) to be so aggressive in their quest to get owners to sell to Festiva by paying money to do so?

3) What members or trustees of Southcape or the " developers" also have interests with Outfield?

4) What is the relationship between Outfield, Nevs, Festiva, Southcape the Trustees, et. al.

5) Are all transactions contracts and improvements being handled Arms Length?

6) How much does Outfield receive by trying to convince deeded owners to sell to Festiva for a fee and how much if anything do any of the other "Trustees" receive in their various companies or capacities?

7) Who exactly are the Trusteess and what exactly is their relationship and or beneficial interest in any of the other entities however their interest may appear to the intricate web that seems to have been woven?

8) What interest does Rosylyn Cassidy have and under whose employ is she and whose direction?

Answer these questions PLEASE simply honestly and without disclaimers and all the coy ducking behind wordsmithing and many will most probably be satsified IF THE ANSWERS are TRUTHFUL able to be proven and DO NOT compromise other deeded owners.

Regards.....
PS All of my Special Assessments have been PAID IN FULL......


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## NEVMSLLC

Hi Russ

I will answer your questions truthfully and to the point even though i don't like people being referred to as "hired guns".

1.  It is not inappropriate for me to be in business with Outfield in any way.

2.  Outfield is bringing owners up to date on what's happening at the resort and offering owners an additional vacation exchange opportunity by joining Festiva Adventure Club.

3.  Tom Franks and Steve Lamantia have interests in Outfield.  I do not.

4.  Festiva has no relationship with anyone other than that Outfield is an agent for Festiva resorts.  Outfield and I own NEVS.  Franks, Lamantia and I are trustees at Southcape.

5.  Yes

6.  I do not know Outfield's financial arrangements with Festiva.  None of the trustees are compensated in any way for being a trustee. 

7.  I've explained this above and I don't see it as "a web that seems to have been woven".  There are legitimate business reasons for why things have been set up the way the have and everything is properly registered.  That information is available to anyone at the secretary of states office which is searchable online.

8.  Rosaleen has no interest in any of the companies.  She is employed by Southcape Resort and Club Community Association.

Cliff

P. S. Thanks for paying the assessment.  I really think you'll be pleased when you see what we're accomplishing.


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## e.bram

I think the NEVS, Outfield, Festiva project will end in failure. The prime weeks owners will not convert. Most of the rest in this economy will also not convert. As the MAs and special asessments increase a lot will bail out.A death spiral will ensue with the whole development going whole ownership. The only thing that makes sence for an non waterfront property in any extremely seasonal area. (as the cape is except for full time residents). A ride by even the oceanfront resorts off season indicates very light occupancy. Note the Cape season is VERY short. (about 8 out of 52 weeks). With ever increasing MFs will the off season owners want to subsidise the prime weeks owners. Points tries to increase the prime weeks by letting every poit owner can get a reservation durring prime. But mathmatically this is obviously this is impossible. Eventually mosy people will recognize this Ponzi scheme and the points concept will collapse. (look what Wynhdam points bring on Ebay, the equivalant of $1.00 weeks)


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Eric
> 
> All is well and I am very busy!  I'm not going to go through the 400+ posts and try to correct every thing.  I don't find a lot of Southcape owners on here with concerns.  Most of the recent posts are coming from people who don't even own at the resort, with one exception.
> 
> However, just to give you an example, Sou13 posted that I had purchased my week at Southcape on Ebay for $1.00.  I have never purchased a week on Ebay for any resort.
> 
> Cliff



Cliff,

Thanks for the reply - even though I am not an owner. 

I am assuming that you have read some of the posts here about the tactics that Outfield is using to get owners to convert to the Festiva. I was just curious if you place any credence to those reports, and if so, have you taken any steps to rein them in.

For instance, one item that has been reported is that Outfield is telling owners that more special assessments will be forthcoming, and that by converting to Festiva, the owner can escape the impact of those assessments. I think you can understand that this statement is undermining the trust that owners might place in your plan to improve the resort. 

And it further complicated by the fact that Outfield is a owner in NEVS, and in their role as Trustee, would be privy to information that might form a factual basis for their claim that more special assessments are coming.

I think you can understand the complications here.

Thanks


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Here we go again.  E.bram, you really don't know what you're talking about.  As near as I can tell you have no actual background in the industry at all and you certainly don't understand the life cycle of a resort.  I'll try to take your points one at a time and I'm answering you only because your statement is so completely wrong that I don't want our owners to be concerned by your incorrect speculations.

Whether the prime week owners convert (or in fact any owners convert) to Festiva makes no difference at all to the resort.  The resort does not benefit either way.

You next statement about owners bailing is true but you assume that, when owners bail, there is no mechanism to replace them with new owners.  In some resorts that is true and I have consulted with resorts where this has happened and the resort had to close (Cap'n Gladcliff for those of you who don't believe me and want to look it up).  If there is a sales program, old owners are being replaced by new owners and the resort is financially healthy.  Perhaps you'd like to talk about what's been happening at your resort, the Oceancliff?

Southcape is not going to revert to whole ownership.  The resort is basically healthy and is going to get even stronger, not weaker.

If you don't think the Cape is busy all year round, come down on a Friday afternoon and try driving in Hyannis in the middle of February.  The actual high demand now runs from May until the middle of October.  We haven't had an 8 week season here since I was in high school and, before anyone can say it, yes, it was a long time ago.  My other company, IVS Realty has been successfully selling off season weeks on Cape Cod since 1992 and we're still selling them with no problems.

Off season owners will not be subsidizing the prime season.  All maintenance fees are created equal and one time period does not subsidize another.  

You completely misunderstand and misrepresent points whether its Festiva points, RCI points or Bluegreen points.  That's simply not the way points works.  You are correct that, if every off season points owner reserved a prime week the system would collapse.  But come on, if an off season week is worth 2,000 points and a prime week is worth 8,000 points, the off season owner simply doesn't have enough points to reserve a prime week.  Your scenario can't work and hasn't happened in almost 20 years of there being points products.

Yes, that's right, points have been around for over 20 years.  I worked with one of the first points programs in the world in South Africa in 1990.  Do you truly believe that RCI would begin a points program if it was likely to collapse the system???

Saying the system is no good because you can buy Wyndham points on Ebay for $1.00 doesn't mean anything either.  I collect vintage guitars and recently bought a 1968 gibson J-45 for $30.00 on Ebay because no one else bid.  That guitar is still worth a couple of grand and I've actually sold guitars on Ebay for thousands.

It's these kinds of rumor and unfounded speculations that can cause far more problems that anything else and that's why I've chosen to respond to you.

Cliff


----------



## NEVMSLLC

I do understand, Eric and I'm answering you again only because I have heard of owner's concerns about sales.

In the past several months, I have heard from several owners about what salepeople have allegedly told them.  Several of the owners I spoke with ended up telling me that they were simply confused by the presentation and got things mixed up.  After I explained things to them they were fine.

We did have several instances of a situation where I was convinced that there was an actual problem.  I called Outfield and learned the sale rep's name.  I then contacted other owners who had appointments with this particular sales rep and when I heard the same statements from other owners, it quickly became apparent that there was a problem with this sales rep.

When I contacted Outfield with my results, Outfield's reaction was to immediately terminate this particular sales rep as he was simply lying to people.  I contacted owners personally to tell them what happened and to offer my apologies. All of the owners I spoke with said they understood and were appreciative of my and Outfield's efforts to correct a problem.

We have had two other instances where there appeared to be problems but not to the level of firing someone.  Those two people were brought back in for additional training as they were explaining the program incorrectly but there was no misrepresentation involved.  Those people are back and we've not had a problem since.

I take owner complaints very seriously.  The truth is, i don't want any complaints but I know that's unrealistic as well.  I've said before on here that you can't have a sales program without some complaints.  The main thing is not that you have no complaints, it's that, if there are complaints, what's done about them.  Both I and Outfield are very proactive in responding to complaints and correcting mistakes.  That's one of the main ingredients I look for in a sales company.  When there is a problem, how does the company handle it.

Most all of the complaints happened in the beginning of the program.  I'm simply not hearing complaints anymore but, if I do, I'll be investigating again.


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## SCapeOwnersRUS

*Cliff Why Have You Not Answered This???????*

Message Deleted


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## e.bram

OK. Let's tale Oceancliff as you suggested. The HOA can't give the off season
away, even AFTER a $2200.00 SA. Look at their websight if you don't beleive me. The same is true with the Wellington. And Newport is busier than the Cape off season. Also consider that Oceancliff is HOA frugally managed with by the owners with no owners(developer) getting a free ride. All rental income(there is a hotel on the premises that caters wedding with very few rooms for wedding guests) from HOA units goes to the HOA(no free riders) . Consider that the resort is waterfront and close to Hammersmith Farms( where Jack and Jackie were married) on the road with many mansions on Ocean Drive. And still I sometimes wonder about is viability. If the MFs keep getting higher, many older owners will bail until it has it's own death spiral. However with whole ownership the property has a much greater value the sum of the value of all the units themselves as a TS. I figure I'll hang in there for a while. Because of their location the average as a condo is probably between $250,000.00 to $400,000.00. 52 weeks of a TS would bring no more than $50,000.00.(if you could sell them all) However the MFs would be about $700.00 per month as a condo as compared to $700.00 per week for a TS.


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## e.bram

Some of  the owners should get together and try a court action to get any freeloader unit owners to pay their share of MFs. This would solve the problem. Another post about The Breakers Resort names a lawyer with TS expierence. Might be good place to start. Look if 20 owners contributed $100.00 each that would be two grand.Enough to get the project off the ground. Once the TS loses the burden of non contributing owners it is all over but "the screaming and the shouting" GOOD LUCK


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## NEVMSLLC

That's right, Oceancliff had a $2,200 assessment and people want to string me up for $400!

You're also right that they can't give the weeks away.  Same situation they had when they asked me to sell the association weeks back in the 90's.  They had hundreds of them.  Well, I did sell the off season weeks and all the other weeks as well.  When I had almost sold all of the association weeks, they decided they didn't need me anymore so I left.  Last I heard they were back up to over 800 delinquent owners and no way to sell them.  See what can happen without an effective sales program?

Don't forget, I've assigned all rental income from my weeks to the association as well.  I won't see a dime from rental income, it's all going to the resort.

I won't even quibble with your numbers, even though they're wrong again.  What they need is a way of selling the association owned inventory to bring in new maintenance fee paying owners.  I agree that the resort is well managed except for that one problem:  they don't know how to replace owners who fall out.  

I've proven to them that it can be done and I continue to do it at resort after resort in New England.  Your premise that it can't be done at Southcape is simply wrong.  I did it for the former developers back in 1992 and 1993 before they asked me to stop selling their weeks because they wanted the rental income.  By having a successful sales program, Southcape will be able to avoid the spiraling maintenance fees, delinquent ownership and falling income that other resorts are experiencing.  Southcape now has one of the best resale programs in the entire country.


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## Sou13

*Here's the post and where it was posted*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Eric
> 
> All is well and I am very busy!  I'm not going to go through the 400+ posts and try to correct every thing.  I don't find a lot of Southcape owners on here with concerns.  Most of the recent posts are coming from people who don't even own at the resort, with one exception.
> 
> However, just to give you an example, Sou13 posted that I had purchased my week at Southcape on Ebay for $1.00.  I have never purchased a week on Ebay for any resort.
> 
> Cliff





Sou13 said:


> What Mr. Hagberg neglected to mention is that he bought his week at Southcape for $1!
> 
> He also failed to mention that he was present at the 2008 owners' association meeting, but not as a member!
> 
> As I've already warned, don't let a smooth-talking salesman swindle out of your weeks or your voice in the Community Association!
> 
> Here's more on Outfield Marketing:
> 
> Cape Cod Sandcastle Owners Please Read


http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=679004#post679004

So you see it wasn't posted here and it doesn't say anything about eBay.  It doesn't even say what it's purported to say!


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## NEVMSLLC

LOL, I apologize and thanks for correcting me.  I thought it was you who said it and I didn't look back through the 17 pages of posts to make sure.

By the way, I've never attended a Southcape owner's meeting.  Next month will be my first.  Finally, where do you off get accusing me of "swindling" people out of their weeks?  Isn't that libelous?

Cliff


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## Sou13

*Are you Outfield Marketing?*

O.K., Cliff, we both didn't hear each other 100% accurately.  I recall you saying to me that you were at that meeting, and I recall something about buying a week on eBay for $1.00 but as previously posted we may not have accurately recalled all that was said.  It was a rather long conversation and you were on your cell phone on the way to Southcape so you couldn't have been giving me 100% of your attention.

Reread the post.  I was referring to Outfield Marketing but if the shoe fits, by all means, wear it!

As for the use of the word "swindle" it's 100% appropriate in the case of Outfield Marketing which owns NEVS along with you (see Post #407)!


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## ecwinch

e.bram said:


> OK. Let's tale Oceancliff as you suggested. The HOA can't give the off season
> away, even AFTER a $2200.00 SA. Look at their websight if you don't beleive me. The same is true with the Wellington. And Newport is busier than the Cape off season. Also consider that Oceancliff is HOA frugally managed with by the owners with no owners(developer) getting a free ride. All rental income(there is a hotel on the premises that caters wedding with very few rooms for wedding guests) from HOA units goes to the HOA(no free riders) . Consider that the resort is waterfront and close to Hammersmith Farms( where Jack and Jackie were married) on the road with many mansions on Ocean Drive. And still I sometimes wonder about is viability. If the MFs keep getting higher, many older owners will bail until it has it's own death spiral. However with whole ownership the property has a much greater value the sum of the value of all the units themselves as a TS. I figure I'll hang in there for a while. Because of their location the average as a condo is probably between $250,000.00 to $400,000.00. 52 weeks of a TS would bring no more than $50,000.00.(if you could sell them all) However the MFs would be about $700.00 per month as a condo as compared to $700.00 per week for a TS.



Your solution is only viable once the resort has hit the "death spiral" phase. Even then it requires a DEVELOPER to step up and fund the acquistion of the available inventory, and to champion the conversion to a condo project. By and large, the logistics of the conversion become problematic in any other scenerio. 

And as much as we bash Cliff, it would appear that some of the same intent/purpose underly's your position. It subverts the whole reason that timeshares exist. Yes, once a resort is sold-out, the parts are not as valuable as the whole. But that is not the basis on which it was sold. Your position seems like a case against timeshare ownership, and the same arguement can be made about almost every resort.

And the significant reduction in m/f only comes from a comparable decease in services - no front desk, no check-in, no housekeeping, etc. It is an completely different model. Your asking the tiger to change it's stripes.

And the end of the day, you have recognize that Cliff is suggesting that the only viable model is one where a resort is never sold-out, but always has an effective sales program that addresses the issue of owner churn.

See Cliff we really do listen to what you have to say.


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## e.bram

If the resort goes bankrupt then the judge decides what's best for the creditors and removes the complexity mentioned in conversion. And it might be in 2009 the concept of an inland seasonal TS is no longer viable. No way can anyone or group  sell such a TS. It is easier to sell ice cubes to Eskimos of sand in the desert. Look on Ebay for a $1.00 plus free usage, plus free closing get no bids. And Oceancliff in Newport can't even give them away. Go figure. But that is the present day situation, and with our economy.   I do not see it improving soon.  With Southcape managment will live off the management fees and bonuses(like AIG)until the end.
No way will new owners come in to replace the bailees, never happen, a pipedream, pie in the sky about as much credabiloity as what the sales weasles at TS presentations tell you.


----------



## ecwinch

e.bram said:


> If the resort goes bankrupt then the judge decides what's best for the creditors and removes the complexity mentioned in conversion. And it might be in 2009 the concept of an inland seasonal TS is no longer viable. No way can anyone or group  sell such a TS. It is easier to sell ice cubes to Eskimos of sand in the desert. Look on Ebay for a $1.00 plus free usage, plus free closing get no bids. And Oceancliff in Newport can't even give them away. Go figure. But that is the present day situation, and with our economy.   I do not see it improving soon.  With Southcape managment will live off the management fees and bonuses(like AIG)until the end.
> No way will new owners come in to replace the bailees, never happen, a pipedream, pie in the sky about as much credabiloity as what the sales weasles at TS presentations tell you.



But what happens to your ownership in a bankrupcty scenerio? Can you point us to a resort where owners received significant value for their units in a court ordered conversion plan?

And your ignoring Cliff's point that Oceancliff only had that problem when they stopped an active resale program.

His basic premise is that timeshares are a sales driven product, and that demand is only created by sales efforts and does not occur naturally.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Gee E.bram, I guess the buyers for the 31 sales I've had on Cape Cod so far this month haven't read your doom and gloom posts.  You might also be surprised to realize that the prices range from $1,995 to $22,000 and that's without a developer and no marketing at all.  I take listings from owners wanting to sell their weeks and i actually sell them. I have never charged a fee to list a week for sale and I only get paid if I actually sell the week.  No developer at all and all of the resorts where I do this are sold out and the developer is long gone.  I work for the owners and the associations and I've been doing it for almost 20 years.  Gee, if I had only talked with E.bram twenty years ago, I might never have done this believing that it couldn't possibly work!!   How much experience do you have in the industry??  When are you going to decide to become part of the solution instead of continuing to be part of the problem?  Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention.  None of the resorts I sell at are oceanfront.  They are all "inland season TS (that are) no longer viable".


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## NEVMSLLC

Thank you Eric and you are correct.  I seldom meet people who get up in the morning and say to themselves, let's go out and see if we can buy a timeshare today!  It is and always has been a sales driven product.  Whether we like that or not, we ignore the reality at our own peril.

A well managed resort will implement a resale program for its owners before they reach the so called "death spiral".  It only makes sense.  People die, lose their jobs, get older, don't vacation anymore and a whole lot of other reasons why they don't want or use their timeshare anymore.  As an industry, what are we to do with these people?  We'd better find a way to replace them or all those bad things will start happening to a resort.

I'm not suggesting that mine is the only way, only that my way has been proven successful at resort after resort since 1992.  I also believe very strongly in timeshare ownership or I wouldn't be selling it.  

I would also argue with your statement that the only significant decrease in maintenance fees comes from decreasing services.  There are management issues that can make resorts more efficient.  Reduce the delinquencies, fund the reserves properly, operate on a budget and *replace those owners that are going to be delinquent before they become delinquent* are all ingredients of a sound stable resort.

Finally, all of the resorts where i sell are "sold out".  It does not require a developer to have a resale program.  Where a developer comes in handy is in a situation where you have a large amount of never sold inventory and a large backlog of delinquent inventory.  That's when you need the marketing and sales ability to go outside the resort into the market and that takes a developer's strength.  When the developer's done, the resort moves into the secondary phase of growth.  The problem with Southcape is that the former developer didn't do anything for the last twenty years.  I'm just trying to fix things and I'm always open to ideas on how best to do that.  I'm just doing what I've been doing successfully for the last twenty years.  

I'll say again, if you want to know more about me, google me and read what I've been saying and doing for the past twenty years.  I'm not asking anyone to believe me.


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## e.bram

ecwinch:
If selling off season TSs is that easy, how come Wyndham in Newport RI closed their sales offices. I guess they were not professional enough?Did not have enough expierence?  I am not part of thr problem, only a messenger. The climate in the northeast does not allow for an all season resort operation. I remember 50 years ago Freedomland(Bronx) ande Coney Island(Brooklyn) went belly up because they could not survive the short season. Disneyland in Ca and Fl thrive.


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> I would also argue with your statement that the only significant decrease in maintenance fees comes from decreasing services.  There are management issues that can make resorts more efficient.  Reduce the delinquencies, fund the reserves properly, operate on a budget and *replace those owners that are going to be delinquent before they become delinquent* are all ingredients of a sound stable resort.



Agreed, but I did not say that the only significant way to decrease m/f was to decrease service. Better mgt will definitely control expenses, and in turn m/f. But even sound mgt is not going to reduce m/f to the level that e.bram is suggesting (i.e. $700 a month or $175 a week).


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## e.bram

ecwinch: The $750.00 referred to the MF as a wholey owned condo unit. That is what I pay for my condo on Monmouth Beach, NJ. Of course if doesn't include maid service, furnishing etc found in a TS. I only meant it to compare condo units MFs to TSunits MFs. Only a owner governed TS will be able to obtain minimal MFs. Where the owners don't control the board who can say  what conflicts of interest can do to the MFs, no matter what the controling entity says .


----------



## NEVMSLLC

You're right Eric.  Those numbers are completely unrealistic.  Good management can hold the line on fees but as utilities, taxes, payroll and other expenses climb, so do maintenance fees even if the resort had 100% collections.  Just a fact of life.

E.bram!!  You're now comparing a timeshare resort to a theme park???  When I was young, we had Storyland and Frontiertown on Cape Cod and both are closed now as well.  I've lived on Cape Cod all my life and your suggestions about a shortening season here are just not in line with the facts.  How do you make this stuff up?  Other than the Cap'n Gladcliff, name me one other sold out resort that's failed in New England?  Go ahead, I'm waiting . . .  

I don't know why Wyndham closed their office but mine's still going strong after 17 years!  I'm still selling for one reason only, there's value in owning timeshare!!  Nobody knows that better than I do, it's how I make my living.


----------



## ecwinch

e.bram said:


> ecwinch:
> If selling off season TSs is that easy, how come Wyndham in Newport RI closed their sales offices. I guess they were not professional enough?Did not have enough expierence?  I am not part of thr problem, only a messenger. The climate in the northeast does not allow for an all season resort operation. I remember 50 years ago Freedomland(Bronx) ande Coney Island(Brooklyn) went belly up because they could not survive the short season. Disneyland in Ca and Fl thrive.



I think it is an oversimplification to suggest that Coney Island is an illustrative example of your position of the challenges of the short season. The factors were more complicated than that. And Coney Island still exists, though in a far different form than from it's heyday.

I am not suggesting that selling the off-season weeks is easy, nor do I profess to be knowledgable about Cape Cod in general. But suggesting that only condos can thrive in short season destinations is not accurate either. In that regard, the Ponzi points systems you have faulted actually provide the solution. Their model is that owners of enough points to secure a unit in that short season pay a greater share of the costs than the guy who only has enough points to get a unit in the off-season.

But this whole sideline is hijacking this thread about the Southcape. If you want to debate the viability of short-season destinations, that might be better served by a new thread on the subject.


----------



## e.bram

My posts are relevent since Southcape is the epitome of a short season inland TS and the viability problems they face not being controlled by the owners. This is necessary for this type for this resort to survive. Conry Island died because the land is more valuable for use for an all year around use such as residential and the associated comercial use. Memorial day to Labor day uses cannot provide the revenue needed to maintain the land value.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sou13 said:


> O.K., Cliff, we both didn't hear each other 100% accurately.  I recall you saying to me that you were at that meeting, and I recall something about buying a week on eBay for $1.00 but as previously posted we may not have accurately recalled all that was said.  It was a rather long conversation and you were on your cell phone on the way to Southcape so you couldn't have been giving me 100% of your attention.
> 
> Reread the post.  I was referring to Outfield Marketing but if the shoe fits, by all means, wear it!
> 
> As for the use of the word "swindle" it's 100% appropriate in the case of Outfield Marketing which owns NEVS along with you (see Post #407)!



OK Sou13, glad to know you weren't libeling me, just Outfield . . . oh, yes, and NEVS.

FYI, I went back and reread all of your posts and here is exactly what you said:

*"BTW Cliff Hagberg is one of those Southcape interval owners who found one on eBay for $1! So don't be fooled into thinking that he has Southcape's best interests at heart!"*

"As I previously warned, let's not let ourselves be swayed by a smooth-talking salesman (Cliff Hagberg)! "

"From that point on I had to caution myself not to be taken in by a smooth talking salesman, which I perceive Cliff Hagberg to be."

After having read all of your posts, I guess i just assumed that you mean that the swindling, smooth-talking salesman was me . . . 

Still think I didn't hear you accurately?  BTW, I still think it might be libelous whether it was me or Outfield or NEVS.


----------



## Carolinian

Any resort management that would subject its members to the predatory hard sell intimidating marketing pressure of a points scheme like Festiva is simply not working in its members interest, especially when such a scheme can potentially let the likes of Festiva get control of the resort.  It is time for new management.  Any developer or subsequent developer that wears out their welcome by keeping control long after they should have relinquished it to the members should be ashamed of themselves and finally get a clue that it is time to let go.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> Just a fact of life.
> I've lived on Cape Cod all my life and your suggestions about a shortening season here are just not in line with the facts.  How do you make this stuff up?  waiting . . .
> 
> .



Hi honey, I 'm back. Miss me? The FACTS about seasonal demand are available in black and white on Interval International. 

This is the SOUTHSCAPE'S travel demand index on Interval International. Click on the blue line on the right which says "Travel Demand Index":

http://www.intervalworld.com/web/cs?a=1503&resortCode=SOU&parentResortCode=SOU

Weeks 1-6, worthless, week 7 low demand, week 8 almost worthless,in fact you don't have an above average demand week until week 20. Of course weeks 25 to 34 are the highest demand weeks at Southscape (surprise, surprise). then the demand starts falling until week 43 which is an average demand week. Weeks 44 -52 are more of the pesky low demand weeks you say don't exist. More than half of the year is below average demand weeks at Southscape.

Cliff, how do you make this stuff up? Waiting......


----------



## e.bram

Cliff: 
You are right about there being a lot of activity on the Lower Cape by  year round  residents(retirees and Wood's Hold employees etc).It upholds my point of view.It bodes ill for for TSs since it enhances the value of the real estate so that seasonal activity is no longer feasible. The developments are worth mush more for condos(all year) and less for seasonal use(the area loses it's resort flavor and becomes a residential community). The exception is for oceanfront TSs managed properly since the waterfront location have more of a universal appeal.
 My expieence with TSs consists owning 6 weeks and having to pay MFs and SAs comparing the managment of varios TSs. As well as the location of the TS with respect to it's desirability. I managment comercial real estate and has expierenced maintaining the structures and dealing the the financial aspects of operating real estate. Having owned(no matter by whom) units not contributing MFs and SAs id bad, like having a deadbeat tenant, worse than vacant space.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> I do understand, Eric and I'm answering you again only because I have heard of owner's concerns about sales.
> 
> We did have several instances of a situation where I was convinced that there was an actual problem.  I called Outfield and learned the sale rep's name.  I then contacted other owners who had appointments with this particular sales rep and when I heard the same statements from other owners, it quickly became apparent that there was a problem with this sales rep.
> 
> When I contacted Outfield with my results, Outfield's reaction was to immediately terminate this particular sales rep as he was simply lying to people.  .



Could the terminated sales rep be Steve Lamantia? Some of what he said is questionable at the least." 50% of RCI & II have already converted their units to points and pretty soon that number will go to 70%". I don't believe those percentages are anywhere close to accurate. There are far more weeks owners in RCI than points owners. He also told this Southscape owner that if they didn't swap their weeks for Festiva points that they wouldn't be able to sell them, because nobody wants them.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html

 You say that you are selling many Southscape weeks for $1995 to over $22,000. Somebody apparently wants those weeks and they are very valuable according to your own posts. You say that you take weeks from owners and sell them. Steve says that can't be done. Who is the poor owner to believe? A lie is being told by someone, either you or Steve. Are the weeks valuable and in high demand as you state, or are they worthless and not worth owning as Steve says? If Steve is telling the truth, boy are you in trouble since you own 500 worthless weeks.



NEVMSLLC said:


> Gee E.bram, I guess the buyers for the 31 sales I've had on Cape Cod so far this month haven't read your doom and gloom posts. You might also be surprised to realize that the prices range from $1,995 to $22,000 and that's without a developer and no marketing at all. I take listings from owners wanting to sell their weeks and i actually sell them..




If Lamantia has been terminated, then that leaves a trustee spot open. Here is a great idea. Why don't you fill the empty trustee spot with an owner who has no connection to NEVS, Outfield marketing, or Festiva so someone can look out for the owner's best interests. Let someone be a trustee and have a say in the future of Southscape who actually pays MF's and assessments at Southscape.

 If Lamantia is still employed and is still a trustee, you could still appoint an owner to be a trustee that is not associated with NEVS, Outfield, or Festiva anyway as a sign that there is nothing to hide. You could still outvote them 3 to 1, but it would make owners feel like they have some input.  By the way, this is not a unique approach. In fact most resorts have more owners with no ties to sales or developers on the board than there are board members with developer/sales affiliations. The shocker to you might be the fact that most boards at sold out resorts are composed entirelly of owners with no ties to any developer or sales organization.

If Lamantia is still using the same lines and still employed as a salesman (and I assume still training the new salesman on how to sell and what to say), then some of your supposed concern for the owner's well being seems to be empty promises. I wouldn't be surprised if the terminated employee was actually terminated for lack of sales rather than lack of ethics.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> Who is the poor owner to believe? A lie is being told by someone, either you or Steve...If Lamantia is still using the same lines and still employed as a salesman (and I assume still training the new salesman on how to sell and what to say), then some of your supposed concern for the owner's well being seem to be empty promises.



Tombo, great post. It's interesting that Lamantia is even a trustee at all. One former post had him attending a meeting by phone..maybe because he is in TX? What possible interest could he have in serving in any capacity at SC? Because he is a "trustee" you maybe correct in your assumption that he is further up the food chain then say this guy was http://www.enw-asia.com/applicants_open.asp?id=117 and possibly could be training reps. But what is he training them in? Cliff has said that "Outfield is bringing owners up to date on what's happening at the resort and offering owners an additional vacation exchange opportunity by joining Festiva Adventure Club."
Another poster on the Sandcastle board said, "All they tell me is that they are not trying to sell me inventory and that Outfield merely calls people to schedule appointments. They claim there is no relationship between Outfield and either Festiva or New England Vacation Services."  

Hmm...what is really going on here? To figure it out, follow the money. Steve is not paid to be a trustee. The first qualification on the Outfield Marketing reps resume is "selling."  Does any rep get a penny for "bringing owners up to date?" Cliff claims to reign in bad Outfield Marketing people....but really, pay somebody handsomely to get a deed from someone and pay them nothing (or next to it) for "educating" an owner about the changes at South Cape and gee, you think they might be a little less than factual in their presentations?


----------



## e.bram

tombo:
Worthless weeks? remember he doesn't pay MFs of SAs. When the development goes condo, he'll reap.


----------



## tombo

e.bram said:


> tombo:
> Worthless weeks? remember he doesn't pay MFs of SAs. When the development goes condo, he'll reap.



According to Cliff, he bought the 500 weeks to sell, and according to Cliff they are selling very well and selling for a lot of money. Steve said they are worthless. It is so hard to determine who is telling the truth. I am going to believe Cliff since he still respects me.

Everyone who is going to attend an owners update, please print a copy of the post showing how much Cliff is selling weeks at Southscape for. When the Outfield sales rep tells you that your weeks are worthless unless you convert to Festiva, show him the paper and tell them that the head of NEVS (who employs them to sell Festiva) is currently selling weeks for $20,000 or more. He can't tell you that Cliff is full of Bull because Cliff is Outfields boss. This will shut them up.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> According to Cliff, he bought the 500 weeks to sell, and according to Cliff they are selling very well and selling for a lot of money. Steve said they are worthless. It is so hard to determine who is telling the truth. I am going to believe Cliff since he still respects me.
> 
> Everyone who is going to attend an owners update, please print a copy of the post showing how much Cliff is selling weeks at Southscape for. When the Outfield sales rep tells you that your weeks are worthless unless you convert to Festiva, show him the paper and tell them that the head of NEVS (who employs them to sell Festiva) is currently selling weeks for $20,000 or more. He can't tell you that Cliff is full of Bull because Cliff is Outfields boss. This will shut them up.



Touche', Tombo!


----------



## Sou13

*I'm back!*



NEVMSLLC said:


> OK Sou13, glad to know you weren't libeling me, just Outfield . . . oh, yes, and NEVS.
> 
> FYI, I went back and reread all of your posts and here is exactly what you said:
> 
> *"BTW Cliff Hagberg is one of those Southcape interval owners who found one on eBay for $1! So don't be fooled into thinking that he has Southcape's best interests at heart!"*
> 
> "As I previously warned, let's not let ourselves be swayed by a smooth-talking salesman (Cliff Hagberg)! "
> 
> "From that point on I had to caution myself not to be taken in by a smooth talking salesman, which I perceive Cliff Hagberg to be."
> 
> After having read all of your posts, I guess i just assumed that you mean that the swindling, smooth-talking salesman was me . . .
> 
> Still think I didn't hear you accurately?  BTW, I still think it might be libelous whether it was me or Outfield or NEVS.


Oh, good, you saved me the trouble of finding those "untruths"!

And while in the case of the reply to Sanford's post about his telephone conversation I may have been referring to Outfield Marketing, now that we have the managing partner of NEVS online it does appear that we're all being taken in by a smooth-talking salesman.  And what more proof do we have than the self-proclaimed ability to be so successful at selling timeshares for 20 years?

As for the libelous suggestion, it can't be libelous if it's not "untruth"!

I must have had wax in my ears when I was on the telephone with Cliff Hagberg.  I heard something he claims he didn't say.  And I'm still confused about IVS and why we need Outfield Marketing if Cliff Hagberg has been so successful at selling timeshares.  Oh, that's right, we need Outfield Marketing to convince us to give up our deeds to our timeshares!

And yes, I still think you don't recall our conversation with 100% accuracy.  Why don't you try giving me another call?  You might even be surprised at who answers!


----------



## Sou13

*In Retrospect*

Hindsight is 20/20.  In retrospect I’m now convinced that after meeting with Greg Hughes and listening to his scare tactics I should have kissed Southcape goodbye and just walked away.  So what if I couldn’t use my split week in 2009?  Is it worth nearly $1,000 to have to put up with the “changes” at the resort I once loved?

I’ve been looking at Redweek.com and I see summer weeks for rent for $700-900.  And looking at the rates and accommodations to rent outright from the resort, I could rent that split week for $700!  Depending on which units are to be upheavaled in the fall, I might not have the unit I reserved after all. So what’s the value of owning a week when I have no say in what happens at Southcape?

I finally had a conversation with my son and daughter-in-law about their week at Belgrade Lakes last summer.  They told me that it cost them $1000+100 deposit for the dogs.  They split the cost with my daughter-in-law's brother and everyone had a great time.  No pets at Southcape!  That’s one of the reasons my firstborn didn’t join me there last year!  That and that it's just not worth the trip!

So what’s there to do at Southcape?  It looks as though if you stay there this spring you can’t even use the pool!  How long does it take to paint a pool, and what are the owners and exchangers and guests supposed to do until the pool reopens?

Thank you, tombo, for your contributions to this discussion, especially about the need for owners on the board of trustees.  Hear!  Hear!

I’m so glad that Cliff Hagberg finally took the time to read all my posts.  Now if only he’d answer my questions!


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> And I'm still confused about IVS and why we need Outfield Marketing if Cliff Hagberg has been so successful at selling timeshares.  Oh, that's right, we need Outfield Marketing to convince us to give up our deeds to our timeshares!



Great point. If Cliff can save resorts by himself through his tried and true marketing program, why does he need Outfield? He is the self proclaimed savior of many resorts who hired him to sell their non paying HOA owned weeks. Now he is still telling us how many weeks he is selling and how much he is selling them for, but he isn't explaining why he needs Outfield to sell weeks at Southscape. Reckon that Festiva/Outfield is paying Cliff to have access to the Southscape owners to sell Festiva points and to allow them to gain ownership of deeded weeks? Do you think Cliff might get a percentage of each Outfield/Festiva sale? I don't know the exact situation, but I can assure you that Cliff didn't hire Outfield to sell Festiva out of altruistic motives and he didn't appoint 2 Outfield Marketing owners as trustees because they were nice guys. Cliff is enriching himself or I feel positive that neither Outfield or Festiva would be involved in Southscape.

 Cliffy, why do you have Outfield selling Festiva to owners when you can handle everything yourself? Please enlighten the owners as to what is in it for you.


----------



## ecwinch

Cliff,

I do not mean for this to be argumentative, but there seems to be dearth of happy Southcape owners that are posting on this board. The absence of at least one happy owner posting of TUG would seem to run counter to your previous assertions. I was curious on why you thought that might be, as in most threads you get at least one owner who sees the half-empty glass as half-full. Is it:

 - Happy owners do not participate on TUG

 - There are happy owners that participate on TUG, but they chose not to post

 - There are happy owners that participate on TUG, but are afraid to post as they do not want to be "beat" down by the angry owners

 - TUG is only for the vocal minority. Timeshare owners as a group are mostly apathetic, so no conclusion can be drawn by the absence of posts from happy owners

You have previously represented that you have spoken to many owners that are happy with the changes in progress at Southcape. However we have not seen any posts from happy Southcape owners or owners at your other projects. Would it be helpful to ask some or even one of them to post here? 

My desire for balance cries out to hear from someone from that group. If any happy NEVS resort owner is out there and has not posted, please do so. I think your opinion would be respectfully heard. At least with me.

Thanks


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Great point. If Cliff can save resorts by himself through his tried and true marketing program, why does he need Outfield?



See Cliff's previous post. Outfield is a co-owner with NEVS of the development rights at Southcape. It is a recipical business relationship. 

I think the only dog in that hunt goes back to the original question from way back of why the Southcape member's personal information were provided to Outfield for solicitation of business not directly related to Southcape. FestivaRep's statements that it is an affiliated business is weak at best. Likewise is the argument that Cliff has suggested - to offer them additional ways to use their Southcape ownership. 

I know Citi bank got into the same problem with they acquired Travellers Insurance, and Travellers began soliciting Citi bank customers. Putting a brochure in a mailing is one thing, but active solicitation based on personal information you obtain from a non-related business relationship is another.

Toward that end, it would be important for someone to document what Outfield is saying when they attempt to arrange their appointments. Saying upfront that we want to talk to you about Festiva is one thing. Saying we want to update you on changes at Southcape, and then turning that into an in-home sales presentation about Festiva is another thing entirely. Government agencies tend to take a dim view of people entering someone's home under false pretenses.


----------



## SCapeOwnersRUS

*It SIMPLY IS NOT RIGHT THAT.....*

Nevs Outfield and Festiva are all in cahoots together and to some end that
is not being apparently disclosed...

There is apparent subtrafuge here and it seems as if there MAY be practices and modalities which should be looked into by regulatory and the Attorney General's office of the Commonwealth of Mass. to insure that the deeded homeowners are not being taken advantage of by the interconnected relations of Outfield NEVS and Festiva to the detriment of the deeded owners.

Also is it a possibility that there is an ethics oversight board of the board of realtors that could look into things as well ?


----------



## Sou13

*Southcape Annual Reports*

I'm looking at the annual reports filed at
http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/co...ReadFromDB=True&UpdateAllowed=&FEIN=042922230 and wondering why reports for 2002-2005 weren't filed until 2005.  The report dated Nov. 1, 2005 is dated July 1, 2005!


----------



## london

*Many Posts Over Almost 6 Months*

I am continually amazed at how some threads can go for months with hundreds of posts.

Another one that I am personally involved in, is the "wanted weeks" thread.

TUG serves all owners with an array of many topics, both general in nature, and the like Southcape that has a limited audience.

The Southcape saga is a long way from being over, it appears.


----------



## Sou13

*Southcape owners' advisory group*

"Wrong again, Sou13.  I haven't left at all.  I'm still here." http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=701795#post701795

Referring back to the post that occasioned this reply, it looked as though we were no longer having questions answered.

Meanwhile, as a volunteer to be on the "advisory council" I have been forwarding questions which have been going unanswered.  I have been implicated by inuendo of posting "untruths" and "misrepresentations" which can be corrected here, and anyone reading my posts frequently finds me asking to be corrected if I'm mistaken or wrong.

My discomfort with the Outfield Marketing and Festiva Adventure Club has grown even more since learning what we now know about the situation.  Membership in Interval International and RCI has always been optional for interval owners, but membership in the Festiva Adventure Club requires Southcape owners to surrender their deeds to the FAC trust, and pay Outfield Marketing at least $3185 for the privilege!

I have yet to be contacted by any happy Southcape owners.  Every owner who has contacted me is unhappy and concerned.


----------



## Fig

london said:


> TUG serves all owners with an array of many topics, both general in nature, and the like Southcape that has a limited audience.
> 
> The Southcape saga is a long way from being over, it appears.



London, if I may venture a guess. Perhaps the "Southcape Saga" is of such interest because it appears someone, anyone, with a little bit of cash might be able to walk-in to a HOA, purchase some controlling units, form a limited partnership with a third party high pressure sales organization, appoint a couple of people from that sales organization as "trustees" and give them access to the personal data of long-time paying owners, so that sales reps can literally fly-in under the guise of "communicating changes at the HOA" while actually getting paid over $3,000 to get these owners to surrender their deeds and join another third party vacation club that has been cited by the Attorney General in MO for its sales practices. Maybe people are thinking, could this happen to my HOA? Just a wild guess.


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## e.bram

Since the area is becoming a year round area and Southcape is omn a large piece of property rogt on busy comercial Rt 28(very valuable), I believe that the intent is to bankrupt the TS so it can be sold with remaining deeded owners receiving the proceeds. Remember any club members will have ceeded the dees to the points club trust which will also go bankrupt probably delling their deeded rights to the developers. NEVMLLc and its' pwners will prosper.


----------



## JackB62

*Southcape Master Deed and other issues*

Hello All,

I have skimmed the last few pages and am really glad that I found this message board as I think every Southcape owner who wishes to remain an owner must try to communicate with each other.

We are at a severe disadvantage in our relationship with our own Board and I think this assessment issue is a perfect example of how we are being taken advantage of.

The way I understand the Master Deed it seems that there has been a blatant disregard for many of our legal rights.

Right now I can be listed as an UNHAPPY OWNER. I was at the resort last week and it is looking better than it has in years. However, I don't recall voting for the capital improvements (over $10,000) and I didn't know the work had started already. What happens if half of the owners walk away without paying the SA (as I almost did)and the rest of us are stuck with the bill?

How is the Board, which is supposed to have seven members, have a quorum to vote for the most expensive renovations in it's history? (There are only three members.) Can't they appoint at least one Interval Owner to be represented on the Board?

How do you have an SA with no budget list of what work is specifically being done and what the costs are?

I will be the first to say I am happy to see the resort upgraded from its' poor condition, but as an owner I feel I'm being pushed around and kept in the dark.


----------



## ecwinch

I could be wrong, but I do not think the current SA is for capital improvements. I think there is a definite distinction between maintenance/repairs and capital improvements. Replacing rotting siding is not a capital improvement, nor is replacing worn out carpeting or furniture.

For instance if the roof needs to be replaced, vs adding a new pool. Clearly the by-laws do not suggest that owner vote is required if the roof needs to be replaced, but would if the decision was to build a new pool complex.

I suspect Cliff is using the "its a legal issue" to avoid answering this question - even though it is from an owner.


----------



## Sou13

*Welcome, JackB62!*

Welcome, JackB62, and thank you for joining the chorus of UNHAPPY Southcape owners!  And thank you for taking the time to study the Master Deed!

To add my reply to london above, by keeping this discussion going we are able to reach more online searchers looking for info and discussion groups.  We may be reaching more Southcape owners than we would by starting a Yahoo! group.  Thank you for finding us and joining TUG.  And keep in touch!

FYI I revived the Southcape Resort discussion as a result of a personal encounter with the scare tactics of Outfield Marketing, and determined to fight this "hostile takeover" as a result.

The Southcape documents available by email are of interest to anyone who wants info on the Festiva Adventure Club and New England Vacation Services.  I have added a line to my signature because this info is available to all who email me.

There is a lot more info in all my posts, starting on p. 1 of this discussion.


JackB62 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I have skimmed the last few pages and am really glad that I found this message board as I think every Southcape owner who wishes to remain an owner must try to communicate with each other.
> 
> We are at a severe disadvantage in our relationship with our own Board and I think this assessment issue is a perfect example of how we are being taken advantage of.
> 
> The way I understand the Master Deed it seems that there has been a blatant disregard for many of our legal rights.
> 
> Right now I can be listed as an UNHAPPY OWNER. I was at the resort last week and it is looking better than it has in years. However, I don't recall voting for the capital improvements (over $10,000) and I didn't know the work had started already. What happens if half of the owners walk away without paying the SA (as I almost did)and the rest of us are stuck with the bill?
> 
> How is the Board, which is supposed to have seven members, have a quorum to vote for the most expensive renovations in it's history? (There are only three members.) Can't they appoint at least one Interval Owner to be represented on the Board?
> 
> How do you have an SA with no budget list of what work is specifically being done and what the costs are?
> 
> I will be the first to say I am happy to see the resort upgraded from its' poor condition, but as an owner I feel I'm being pushed around and kept in the dark.


----------



## Rebecca

*Cliff - Are you still available to answer questions?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> My name is Cliff Hagberg and I am a trustee at Southcape Resort.  I
> am concerned about a number of untruths and misrepresentations that
> have appeared on this board and i am perfectly willing to address
> issues of concern for any owner at Southcape Resort.  Please
> understand that I cannot discuss legal issues nor will I respond to
> any personal attacks.  Having set those ground rules, I would
> very much appreciate an opportunity to try and answer those questions
> that any owner at Southcape might have.  I look forward to a fruitful
> dialog



Hi Cliff,

I have been browsing through the posts, and I have some comments and a couple of questions.  

First of all, as there are a lot of posts and I haven't read them all, I do not know what everyone has said about the nature of their concerns.  In that regard, I want you to understand where I am coming from.  My initial concerns regarding Southcape came up because of a) the special assessment, and b) the visit from a representative, claiming to be part of the southcape community who attempted to force my parents to sign a deed AND pay him to do it.  The second portion was particularly concerning.  While I am aware that special assessments happen, I will be interested in learning further details at the upcoming meeting.  The visitor however - who judging from your posts must have been a Festiva representative - is of particular concern.  This person represented that he would be able to give a full update on the on goings of Southcape and the special assessment, and instead showed up Deed in hand, asking for a signature and a large sum of money from my parents in order to switch to Festiva points.  He insinuated that the whole resort was switching to Festiva, and that if we didn't switch we would not be able to use the resort in any destination other than Southcape.  These scare tactics are not welcome, and are what has brought on the concern about the wellbeing of Southcape.  In my opinion, you should look into the marketing tactics of Festiva, and perhaps send out a letter to all unit owners indicating what you have stated in your posts, and that unit owners are under NO obligation to transfer to Festiva points. 

As for my questions.  It appears that you are already fully aware of the discrepancies and unusual set up of the condo docs that established Southcape.  I understand and respect that you do not wish to answer any questions that you feel are legal in nature, so will there be an attorney at the owners meeting who can answer these legal questions.  Also, I have several legal questions that I would like to ask prior to that meeting.  Can you direct me to the attorney who will be able to answer these questions prior to the meeting.  I can be reached at southcapeowners@gmail.com.  

Thanks in advance for your response.

Rebecca


----------



## Fig

Rebecca said:


> Hi Cliff,
> The visitor however - who judging from your posts must have been a Festiva representative - is of particular concern.  This person represented that he would be able to give a full update on the on goings of Southcape and the special assessment, and instead showed up Deed in hand, asking for a signature and a large sum of money from my parents in order to switch to Festiva points.
> Rebecca



Rebecca, I hope things work out well for your parents. Your post was very enlightening. According to other posts, Outfield Marketing is given the role of visiting with owners to communicate changes at Southcape. If, as Rebecca states, someone is giving owner deeds to reps to carry into a home and have them sign them over for thousands of dollars, this would be of great concern to me if I were an owner or had parents who owned. How is Outfield Marketing, a firm out in TX getting these deeds? If Steve Lamantia and Tom Franks of Outfield are trustees of Southcape, how are they acting as Trustees? Who are these sales reps who are visiting owners with deeds in hand---if they are not trustees (Steve or Tom) how are they getting deeds?


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## SCapeOwnersRUS

*Rebecca WELCOME BACK*

Rebecca,
Welcome back. We need you and your good counsel. There appears to be things occuring at our resort that merit answers and uncovering in full daylight. 

To: CLIFF HAGBERG ... please provide Rebecca with the name of the legal counsel that can answer the questions that you are choosing not to answer.
Also would appreciate you answering the questions I have raised.

Lets understand and have out in the "Sunshine" the mechinisms, motives and machinations that are occuring between NEVS, Hagberg et.al., Outfield and Festiva, to the possible detriment of deeded owners and possibility of inuring to their benefits or combinations thereof of this apparent interwoven group. 

CLIFF straight up WHAT IS GOING ON? WHO IS BEING SERVED HERE? WHAT ARE THE FIDUCIARY OBLIGATIONS OF TRUSTEES AND HOW ARE THEY BEING MET? HOW ARE THE RIGHTS OF DEEDED OWNERS BEING PROTECTED AND MAINTAINED?


----------



## ecwinch

Rebecca said:


> I understand and respect that you do not wish to answer any questions that you feel are legal in nature, so will there be an attorney at the owners meeting who can answer these legal questions.  Also, I have several legal questions that I would like to ask prior to that meeting.  Can you direct me to the attorney who will be able to answer these questions prior to the meeting.  I can be reached at southcapeowners@gmail.com.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your response.
> 
> Rebecca



Great questions!


----------



## Sou13

*More info found*

I was intending to wait until this evening to return to the discussion but something else has turned up and I couldn't wait to share it.

Thank you, Rebecca, for replying to my email and posting these questions for Cliff Hagberg.  You have many documents from me to review and there will be more on the way ASAP.

I knew I had to have more Southcape Resort newsletters somewhere and one has miraculously turned up.  It's the first that was mailed after the introductory letter from Barth and Woods.  This one is so chock full of enlightening info that I can hardly wait to scan it into an email attachment.  I  hope to be able to do that this evening.

To summarize the newsletter, It was printed on two 8 1/2 x 13 double-sided sheets stapled together and mailed without an envelope, costing just 25 cents postage.  The return address is "Rumor Mill" Southcape Resort PO Box 1198 Mashpee MA 02649.  It is dated August, 1990 and summarizes the annual meeting held on July 28, 1990.  It explains the change of procedure and how Barth and Woods became trustees of both Condo I and Condo II which previously had separate trustees and still must have separate Master Deeds.  The outdated Master Deed to which I entered a link in my signature is for Condo I, where my week is located.  It explains how All Cape Resort Management Company, Inc. became inactive and how the two condo entities became combined under the management of Pam Summersall* who has since been replaced by Rosaleen Cassidy.

One very interesting item in this newsletter is to confirm the posts by e.bram about becoming year-round residences.  This was actually offered in 1990 when six units in Condo II became available for $147,000!  I do not know whatever became of that offer.  I have more documents to unearth and hope they will miraculously turn up soon!

The second page is a detailed trustees' report.  The income from Condo I and Condo II is reported separately.

That's all I'm going to report for now.  I will email these documents to all Southcape owners who have subscribed to my egroup and to anyone who requests them so long as they have a legitimate interest in them.  Nearly a quarter of a century of ownership of a week at Southcape had to be good for something!


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## JackB62

*New Owners...No MFs or SAs*

Hello All,

Thanks for getting together and providing such a forum. I haven't been able to respond yet to a few e-mails but I definitely will.

I have spoken with a couple of lawyers and I am going to follow up with them. As much as I have loved our Southcape experience over the years, I am reluctant to pay lawyers in a losing cause. I would definitely chip in if a group of us were to share the burden.

Here are question I have: If I wanted to buy 5 weeks at a distressed price, and I file deeds, how do I get away without paying maintenance fees and special assessments? How did our current "owners" do that? Where in the docs is this addressed?

Thanks!


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## ecwinch

That the units are exempt from the special assessment is specifically outlined on Page 76, paragraph 21(a). 

The issue about m/f is a little more complicated, and subject to some interpretation. The challenge is that the resort was formed under, and the Master Deed complies with the requirements of Mass. Code, Chapter 183A - Condominiums.. Timeshares are now governed under Chapter 183B, the Real Estate Timeshare Act. This act clearly states that the provisions of Chapter 183B prevail over the provisions of Chapter 183A where they conflict.

If Chapter 183A, still prevailed, the following would apply - “Unit owner”, the person or other entity owning a unit, including the declarant.

Declarant means the Developer. Under 183A, expenses are shared by all Unit Owners.

However Chapter 183B, stipulates that the allocation of expenses is determined by the timeshare plan. Which is were the problem lies. The timeshare plan documents outline that the expenses are only shared among the units that are committed to interval ownership (Page 071, paragraph 14). A unit becomes committed to Interval Ownership by the process outlined on Page 090, paragraph 3 . 

The argument is that the Developer units are not committed to the Interval Ownership under the provisions of Page 090, paragraph 3, and there for are not assessed m/f as they represent the Developer inventory.

In addition, Cliff has further covered himself by assigned those units to the Association for rental, and allowed rental income to be retained by the association. He says no consideration was given in return, but I suspect their is something that frees him from m/f if the issue is challenged.

Clear as mud?


----------



## Carolinian

It most timeshares, once a *unit* is committed to interval ownership, every week in that unit is so committed.  Now, there may be something in Massachusetts statute or case law that may be different from other places, but in my neck of the woods, the argument that any such weeks in such a unit were not committed to interval ownership would get tossed out on its ear.


----------



## e.bram

Does that mean if inly one unit was committed, that owner would have to pay the expences for the entire complex. Does not seem to make sense. Definatly some legal issues here need to be resolved. Do not let the lawyers for the "management team" answer them for you.


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## JackB62

*Partitioning?*

Eric and Carolinian, thank you for your insight. I feel better knowing there is a legal area that may answer what is happening at Southcape.

Since this has changed the entire makeup of the complex, you would think that the interval owners would at least have been allowed to vote yea or nay on a new Declarant.

Here is a stupid question, but in the 183B legalese there is a section that states there will be no "partitioning" of the units. Does that mean physically?
Or, could it have to do with what Carolinian said along the lines of "if one is committed to interval ownership than they all are?"


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> It most timeshares, once a *unit* is committed to interval ownership, every week in that unit is so committed.  Now, there may be something in Massachusetts statute or case law that may be different from other places, but in my neck of the woods, the argument that any such weeks in such a unit were not committed to interval ownership would get tossed out on its ear.



I agree with you. The argument is weak and would be a great point to challenge on. 

As a side note, this is not case law since the case was settled before going to trial, but that there are a number of similarities between this situation and the situation at Bluebeards Castle in USVI. 

USVI does not have specific timeshare laws, and timeshares are governed by condominium law, like SC was when it was formed. In the Bluebeards case, the Developer was not paying m/f on their owned units either. When Fairfield acquired the Developer, they began making payments on the Developer inventory, but non-payment of m/f fees over the prior period (10 years) was one of the main claims.  

I only thought of this as I had drinks with an attorney from the USVI the other night, and this came up. Here is the original complaint in that case.

Link
Link 2


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## e.bram

One could make the argument that since the units were sold by the original owner developer to cliff the are now committed and obligated to pay MFs and SAs. Once a unit is sold by the original developer either one by one or in bulk it is sold and no longer belongs to the developer.


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## e.bram

Even though I do not own at Southcape this post effects me and others who could find themselves in a similar situation with older seasonal weeks resorts. A positive outcome fo Southcape owners would make those who take advantage of similar situations think twice. Thus TUG could have a major impact on this aspect of the timeshare industry.


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## ecwinch

e.bram said:


> One could make the argument that since the units were sold by the original owner developer to cliff the are now committed and obligated to pay MFs and SAs. Once a unit is sold by the original developer either one by one or in bulk it is sold and no longer belongs to the developer.



I do not think so. The Master Deed clearly states that the Declarant (Developer) rights are assignable (page 20, paragraph i), and Cliff has previously stated that he acquired those rights from the former Developer. He never maintained that his purchase was of just the unsold inventory. That claim should be vetted, however.

Chapter 183B, further supports his position:

"Developer”, any person who (i) offers to dispose of or disposes of his interest in a time-share not previously disposed of, or (ii) succeeds under section twenty-two to any special developer right."

Anything can be argued however. You could argue that the corporation formed under the provisions of Chapter 183A, and so the definition of "Unit Owners" as defined by 183A should apply.

Cliff alludes to this fact in earlier posts - that the governing documents are in conflict.


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## Sou13

*Southcape Rumor Mill*

I've finally cleaned up the promised documents and forwarded them to everyone in my Southcape owners egroup.  There are some enlightening facts and figures in them which may be of interest to non-owners who are learning from our Southcape experience.

Thank you, Eric, for researching the legal questions and for returning to the discussion.  I hope we can find a legal means to challenge the present situation, especially since there are some legitimate concerns to be addressed.

One curiosity to note since Woods & Barth combined the two trusts in 1990 is that there were four members on the board of trustees, whereas today there are only three.

The documents also address the legitimacy of the owners of the unsold weeks not paying maintenance fees.  According to this newsletter, the Master Deed does not require them to do so.

The newsletter also advises owners that they can apply for a position of the board and request matters to be discussed at the next meeting.

So, you see, Cliff Hagberg et al have been keeping us in the dark about our "rights" as deeded owners.  They may also be taking credit for policies and impovements that were in place when he and his cohorts took over as our "developers"!

If anyone has documents similar to the above from the 20-year Woods&Barth period of our history, would you please share them?  Thank you!


Sou13 said:


> I was intending to wait until this evening to return to the discussion but something else has turned up and I couldn't wait to share it.
> 
> Thank you, Rebecca, for replying to my email and posting these questions for Cliff Hagberg.  You have many documents from me to review and there will be more on the way ASAP.
> 
> I knew I had to have more Southcape Resort newsletters somewhere and one has miraculously turned up.  It's the first that was mailed after the introductory letter from Barth and Woods.  This one is so chock full of enlightening info that I can hardly wait to scan it into an email attachment.  I  hope to be able to do that this evening.
> 
> To summarize the newsletter, It was printed on two 8 1/2 x 13 double-sided sheets stapled together and mailed without an envelope, costing just 25 cents postage.  The return address is "Rumor Mill" Southcape Resort PO Box 1198 Mashpee MA 02649.  It is dated August, 1990 and summarizes the annual meeting held on July 28, 1990.  It explains the change of procedure and how Barth and Woods became trustees of both Condo I and Condo II which previously had separate trustees and still must have separate Master Deeds.  The outdated Master Deed to which I entered a link in my signature is for Condo I, where my week is located.  It explains how All Cape Resort Management Company, Inc. became inactive and how the two condo entities became combined under the management of Pam Summersall* who has since been replaced by Rosaleen Cassidy.
> 
> One very interesting item in this newsletter is to confirm the posts by e.bram about becoming year-round residences.  This was actually offered in 1990 when six units in Condo II became available for $147,000!  I do not know whatever became of that offer.  I have more documents to unearth and hope they will miraculously turn up soon!
> 
> The second page is a detailed trustees' report.  The income from Condo I and Condo II is reported separately.
> 
> That's all I'm going to report for now.  I will email these documents to all Southcape owners who have subscribed to my egroup and to anyone who requests them so long as they have a legitimate interest in them.  Nearly a quarter of a century of ownership of a week at Southcape had to be good for something!


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## SCapeOwnersRUS

*Where in "The World is Waldo"*

Where did Cliff Hagberg disappear to?

No answers ? No responses ?


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## ecwinch

He has been on the board today. I guess he is looking for easy questions from owners.

An owner should ask him what color the drapes will be after the refurbishment.


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## NEVMSLLC

I couldn't tell you, Eric, I'm color blind . . .


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## ecwinch

Ok, then here is a non-color related questioned.

Can you provide the owners with the name of the firm that represented the Southcape Community Association, Inc. in the transfer of the Developer rights?

Or if you have already provided this information to any of the owners or their representatives, then just confirm that it has been provided.

Thanks


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> I couldn't tell you, Eric, I'm color blind . . .



You are too much for him, ecwinch. He wishes he knew how to quit you...

Thanks for all your great posts, Eric. Now if only Cliff would chime in with some helpful answers.


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## NEVMSLLC

I've said right from my very first post that I will not discuss legal issues, period, and I meant it.  If there are questions other than legal ones, I'm happy to answer them, otherwise, you can ask away but this is not the forum to address those issues and I won't be baited into it.

I find it curious that, with all of the issues facing Southcape, not one owner has asked questions about them, nor has a single owner asked what they can do to help.  

The question of trustees, etc. hasn't changed in twenty years and it's no different now, except that there are new trustees who actually want to fix the problems.  Not one question about what's gone on the past twenty years with the former developer.  Not one question about how did the resort get into this situation and what is being done to correct the neglect of the last twenty years.

I guess the owners who haven't cared the last twenty years still don't care what happened and what's being done to fix things.  We do have real issues at the resort and I'd like to talk about them and I do want input from owners about what needs to be done to fix things.  I'm just not going to respond to name calling, libel and innuendo.

So let's go, folks.  If you really do care about the resort, let's have a discussion about Southcape.

And by the way, Fig, I'm not the least bit anxious to get rid of Eric.  I have a lot of respect for him and I respond to him even though he's not an owner.  I do that for one reason, he actually listens and, even though we don't always agree, I think we at least respect each other enough to try and understand the differing viewpoints.  If we had more owners like Eric, I'd be delighted.  Now if we could only focus on the problems facing Southcape . . .


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## e.bram

As I see it the main problem is many owned units are claiming their rights to waive payment of MFs and SAs. If all non HOA owned units payed there would be no problem.


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## NEVMSLLC

E.bram

You are correct.  What you may not know is that the problem is not with the inventory that NEVS purchased, even though NEVS isn't obligated to pay maintenance fees.  The maintenance fees that NEVS would pay on their weeks would be roughly $300,000.  NEVS assigned their rental rights for the weeks to the association and, based on previous years, the rental income is projected at about $300,000 for 2009.  Remember, NEVS did not have to do this and NEVS has voluntarily given up that income.

Probably more important are the almost 600 delinquent owners that the previous trustees let slide.  That's about $350,000 a year in non-paying owners.  We have hired a professional collection company to start the collection process to recover as much of that money as we can.  The total delinquent balance that we inherited from the previous trustees is over $2,500,000.  For the first time in twenty years, we're making a serious effort to collect that money.  Why the previous trustees didn't do it, I don't know.

If you think there's a better way to handle it, I really would like to know.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> I find it curious that, with all of the issues facing Southcape, not one owner has asked questions about them, nor has a single owner asked what they can do to help.
> 
> The question of trustees, etc. hasn't changed in twenty years and it's no different now, except that there are new trustees who actually want to fix the problems.  Not one question about what's gone on the past twenty years with the former developer.  Not one question about how did the resort get into this situation and what is being done to correct the neglect of the last twenty years.
> 
> We do have real issues at the resort and I'd like to talk about them and I do want input from owners about what needs to be done to fix things.  I'm just not going to respond to name calling, libel and innuendo.
> 
> Now if we could only focus on the problems facing Southcape . . .



Ok:

What has gone on the past twenty years?

How did the resort get into this situation?

What is being done to correct the neglect?

What real issues confront the resort today?


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> E.bram
> 
> You are correct.  What you may not know is that the problem is not with the inventory that NEVS purchased, even though NEVS isn't obligated to pay maintenance fees.  The maintenance fees that NEVS would pay on their weeks would be roughly $300,000.  NEVS assigned their rental rights for the weeks to the association and, based on previous years, the rental income is projected at about $300,000 for 2009.  Remember, NEVS did not have to do this and NEVS has voluntarily given up that income.
> 
> Probably more important are the almost 600 delinquent owners that the previous trustees let slide.  That's about $350,000 a year in non-paying owners.  We have hired a professional collection company to start the collection process to recover as much of that money as we can.  The total delinquent balance that we inherited from the previous trustees is over $2,500,000.  For the first time in twenty years, we're making a serious effort to collect that money.  Why the previous trustees didn't do it, I don't know.
> 
> If you think there's a better way to handle it, I really would like to know.



Were these owners allowed use of their units, or are these units that are delinquent with no action to foreclose or collect?

It is ironic that you bring this issue up, as Sou13 has shared with me a owners newsletter from when the previous trustees assumed control. They pointed to the same issue as the main problem that they were focused on solving. That newsletter is dated August of 1990.


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## NEVMSLLC

Just curious.  Are any owners interested or just Eric who is not an owner?


----------



## Russ45

NEVMSLLC said:


> Just curious.  Are any owners interested or just Eric who is not an owner?


Being an owner for only a couple of years I'm not so much interested in the past 20 years, but I would still like to know, as I'm unclear on still, how long current board members serve, how long is an elected board member's term, what about the master deed is conflicting with MGL 183b, if anything, what other controlling documents are in play, and what steps are the Association or NEVMS taking to clarify.  If you can't answer the legal questions here could you please have your attorney present at the May 16th meeting or refer my questions to them?


----------



## ClamsCasino

Yes, I've been an owner at Southcape for 6 years and would like to know what is going on at the resort.  Short-range; Long-range plans.  Can we please consider an upgrade the children's playground - it's a borderline hazard and accident waiting to happen.  Has there been any thoughts of small restaurant/snack stand on premises?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi Clams

Thanks for your question.  Frankly, we haven't given much thought to the playground area.  I just came back from inspecting it with the resort manager and your suggestion is a good one.  I'll begin looking at plans for upgrading that area immediately and it is now on my list of things to do.  I don't think it will be expensive but I agree that it's something we need to do.

As far as a snack stand or some other food service, we have a problem with space and no where to do it that I can see.  Also, getting a license from the town and the board of health would be very problematic as it would probably be prohibitively expensive to meet the BOH requirements.  We are looking into having an outside company come in to the resort on a weekly basis to offer traditional Cape Cod Clambakes for all of our guests and owners.  They provide the license, insurance, etc. and bring a complete service and clean up.  We're looking at pricing at the moment.

By the way, there are a lot of things we can do at the resort to create activities for owners and guests and we're planning to start a number of those things this season.  We're also putting a survey together so owners can give us an idea of what kind of things they'd like to see.  I hope to have it ready for the annual meeting and I'm looking forward to a lot of response.


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## ClamsCasino

Thanks for the response.  I really do think that having a nice playground for the children would be beneficial to the resort.  It would also be great if there were some walking - or biking - trails around the resort - much of the area in back of the units particulary Condo II side is wasted space - privacy is nice but the BBQ areas are not used or needed.  Have to go to Rte 28 to get some excercise.  I like the clambake idea - the pie night was getting pretty lame.  On another note, since tennis went the way of racquetball, do we need 3 outdoor tennis courts to maintain.  I think 2 is plenty and that area in front could be used for something else...


----------



## Sou13

*Call me nobody?*

*"I find it curious that, with all of the issues facing Southcape, not one owner has asked questions about them"*

So what have I been asking?  Questions such as what becomes of the votes of the non-MF paying weeks?  Better still, why are MF-paying owners not entitled to vote on anything?


NEVMSLLC said:


> I've said right from my very first post that I will not discuss legal issues, period, and I meant it.  If there are questions other than legal ones, I'm happy to answer them, otherwise, you can ask away but this is not the forum to address those issues and I won't be baited into it.
> 
> I find it curious that, with all of the issues facing Southcape, not one owner has asked questions about them, nor has a single owner asked what they can do to help.
> 
> The question of trustees, etc. hasn't changed in twenty years and it's no different now, except that there are new trustees who actually want to fix the problems.  Not one question about what's gone on the past twenty years with the former developer.  Not one question about how did the resort get into this situation and what is being done to correct the neglect of the last twenty years.
> 
> I guess the owners who haven't cared the last twenty years still don't care what happened and what's being done to fix things.  We do have real issues at the resort and I'd like to talk about them and I do want input from owners about what needs to be done to fix things.  I'm just not going to respond to name calling, libel and innuendo.
> 
> So let's go, folks.  If you really do care about the resort, let's have a discussion about Southcape.
> 
> And by the way, Fig, I'm not the least bit anxious to get rid of Eric.  I have a lot of respect for him and I respond to him even though he's not an owner.  I do that for one reason, he actually listens and, even though we don't always agree, I think we at least respect each other enough to try and understand the differing viewpoints.  If we had more owners like Eric, I'd be delighted.  Now if we could only focus on the problems facing Southcape . . .


----------



## Sou13

*From that 1990 newsletter*

*"It is ironic that you bring this issue up, as Sou13 has shared with me a owners newsletter from when the previous trustees assumed control. They pointed to the same issue as the main problem that they were focused on solving. That newsletter is dated August of 1990."*

_The first annual meeting of the Southcape Community Association, Inc., that included Southcape Condominium Trust I and Southcape Condominium Trust II was held at Southcape on Saturday, July 28, 1990. Over 150 members attended the meeting. The joint meeting was made possible because on November 17, 1989, Rich DePhamphilis, Ed Conforti and Fred Sateriale resigned as trustees of Southcape Condominium Trust II and Southcape Community Association, and Bob Woods and Vince Barth became the new trustees.  Shortly thereafter, Joe Bottari and Bill Graham, trustees of Southcape Condominium Trust I and the two new trustees delegated the management of Southcape to the Community Association. _

 . . . . .

_We have collected $ 541,346.79 in maintenance fees from the members and paid out $ 2,112.15 to run the resort for you. We will try to collect the maintenance fees from the delinquent members.  If they do not pay, we will put a lien on their property and foreclose on the weeks that we can resell.  In the meantime, a delinquent member will not be permitted to use the Southcape resort or exchange for another resort.  Any money remaining at the end of the year will be put into a reserve and used to refurbish the units.
_ 

 . . . . .

_The tax situation is a mess. The case was settled, but is not binding on 1990 and the future. The units were assessed for more than they were in 1986 to 1989, and we have appealed that assessment. The money that was returned for the past years was spent to pay the bills and keep the resort open. There is no way we can refund any money to you from the tax refund. We are sorry. This was before our time. We are trying to reduce the assessed value and the taxes for 1990 and the future. Your share of the real estate taxes is approximately $66.00 of the maintenance fee per week of ownership. _

 . . . . . 

_Included with this newsletter is a copy of the tax information given to the IRS and State. Any member may review the receipts and disbursements upon request in the resort office. We have nothing to hide. The next meeting will be held at twelve noon on the last Saturday in July, 1991, at your resort. A public address system will be used and all matters to be discussed must be submitted in writing to the resort before May 31, 1991. If you wish to serve as a trustee, please submit a letter summarizing your qualifications and reasons why you should be elected. _

 . . . . . .



ecwinch said:


> Were these owners allowed use of their units, or are these units that are delinquent with no action to foreclose or collect?
> 
> It is ironic that you bring this issue up, as Sou13 has shared with me a owners newsletter from when the previous trustees assumed control. They pointed to the same issue as the main problem that they were focused on solving. That newsletter is dated August of 1990.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sou13

Your questions are all related in one way or another to a legal issue and i'm not going to address them in a public forum.  My position still hasn't changed on this.

Clams

We were looking into walking trails, etc.  The main problem is that years ago, the trustees had an opportunity to retain acres of land behind Condo I and decided not to pay the taxes and so the resort lost the land and the use of it.  The town is developing a recreation area almost across the street from the resort and that will have lots of trails, etc. within a short walk of the resort.

Believe it or not, the barbecue pits get a lot of use in the summer and it always difficult to take something away that owners have come to expect.  With respect to the tennis courts, while they don't get a lot of use from owners and guests, we do rent time on both the indoor and outdoor tennis courts and they generate over $100,000 a year in income to the association.  If we had room for two more indoor courts, we could more than double that income.  Unfortunately, there's just no room.

One thing we have done is to reclaim the horseshoe area behind the indoor tennis courts.  They were so overgrown, I couldn't even find them.  The pits have been redone and the whole area cleaned up and it's looking great.  We're planning on a weekly horseshoe tournament for owners and guests with prizes for the best scores at the end of the week.  We're trying very hard to put "fun" back in Southcape.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Their 1990 newsletter sounds great.  Too bad they didn't do it.  How come you didn't hold their feet to the fire?  Where've you been the last twenty years?


----------



## Sou13

*I've been wondering the same thing*

*"Their 1990 newsletter sounds great.  Too bad they didn't do it.  How come you didn't hold their feet to the fire?  Where've you been the last twenty years?*

It looks as though I'm the only Southcape owner online today so I'll answer.  I've been wondering the same thing!  Read my posts and you'll see that I've been lamenting the lack of involvement and have resolved to change my ways!

So long as the unit was ready and waiting for me, I wasn't worrying about what was becoming of the resort.  But now that we're being contacted by Outfield Marketing to tell us about "changes" we old timers are not too pleased!

I've been wondering what ever became of those newsletters we were supposed to be getting.  I may have been on a recycling spree back then and my search for them may be in vain.

Previous to 1990 I may not have even received anything from Southcape other than the MF assessment because I had a mortgage and wasn't eligible to attend the annual meetings.  But from 1990 on if I can't find anything it doesn't mean I never received anything.  There should be archives at the resort for us to review.  How about producing them at the annual meeting?  I'm willing to personally guarantee that there will be more than 14 members present in 2009!




NEVMSLLC said:


> Their 1990 newsletter sounds great.  Too bad they didn't do it.  How come you didn't hold their feet to the fire?  Where've you been the last twenty years?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

I know there will be more than 14 owners and I couldn't be more delighted!

As far as I've been able to tell, neither the trustees nor the resort kept records of annual meeting minutes, newsletters or even trustee meetings.  I suspect because there weren't any trustee meetings.  We're still looking through old boxes when we have time and everything we find like that is going to be filed and archived, I just don't hold out much hope.

At the Sandcastle, there aren't even any minutes of last year's meeting so how do I move to approve them tomorrow?  I have no idea!

If you do find more information, if you'd be willing to pass them on to me, I'll promise to archive them and make them available to any owner that would like access to them.  I think they're important.

By the way, even with a mortgage, you'd have been eligible to attend the meeting.  The evidence of your ownership is your deed.  

I also hope you'll believe me when i tell you that I want owners involved.  Over the last twenty years, the trustees were in NJ and had little contact with owners.  They were very difficult to get hold of.  I'm at the resort just about every day and I talk with owners all of the time.  It's not just NEVS and it's not just the owners, it's all of us together.  

The problems at Southcape are not insurmountable, in fact, it's not even really that bad.  Yes, there are changes that need to be made and yes, there are a lot of maintenance and renovation that hasn't been addressed in twenty years.  The good news is we're fixing that and we're doing it now.  We're going after the delinquent owners, we're selling the NEVS inventory and the faster we do that, the better we'll all be.  The resort is close to being financially sound and I believe the new management practices we're putting into place will guarantee that the future of Southcape Resort is nothing but good.  Despite what anyone may think, Southcape is very important to me on a personal level.  It's not just business with me.  A year from now, I want to be in a position where the owners are telling me how happy they are that they own at Southcape Resort.  Stick with me, help me out and let's all make that happen.


----------



## Sou13

*The truth is*

*"Stick with me, help me out and let's all make that happen."*

The truth is that I'm kicking myself for not walking away from my nearly a quarter of a century of deeded ownership of a Southcape week after my meeting with Greg Hughes in November.

Now I'm stuck with having to pay nearly $1000 for 2009!  It's just not worth it!  If I don't come to Southcape I'm out $1000 for nothing but a lot of heartache over how many owners have been scared into converting to Festiva!

There's no way Festiva isn't going to get the upper hand when Outfield Marketing is part owner of NEVS and Outfield Marketing is there to sell conversions to Festiva! 


NEVMSLLC said:


> I know there will be more than 14 owners and I couldn't be more delighted!
> 
> As far as I've been able to tell, neither the trustees nor the resort kept records of annual meeting minutes, newsletters or even trustee meetings.  I suspect because there weren't any trustee meetings.  We're still looking through old boxes when we have time and everything we find like that is going to be filed and archived, I just don't hold out much hope.
> 
> At the Sandcastle, there aren't even any minutes of last year's meeting so how do I move to approve them tomorrow?  I have no idea!
> 
> If you do find more information, if you'd be willing to pass them on to me, I'll promise to archive them and make them available to any owner that would like access to them.  I think they're important.
> 
> By the way, even with a mortgage, you'd have been eligible to attend the meeting.  The evidence of your ownership is your deed.
> 
> I also hope you'll believe me when i tell you that I want owners involved.  Over the last twenty years, the trustees were in NJ and had little contact with owners.  They were very difficult to get hold of.  I'm at the resort just about every day and I talk with owners all of the time.  It's not just NEVS and it's not just the owners, it's all of us together.
> 
> The problems at Southcape are not insurmountable, in fact, it's not even really that bad.  Yes, there are changes that need to be made and yes, there are a lot of maintenance and renovation that hasn't been addressed in twenty years.  The good news is we're fixing that and we're doing it now.  We're going after the delinquent owners, we're selling the NEVS inventory and the faster we do that, the better we'll all be.  The resort is close to being financially sound and I believe the new management practices we're putting into place will guarantee that the future of Southcape Resort is nothing but good.  Despite what anyone may think, Southcape is very important to me on a personal level.  It's not just business with me.  A year from now, I want to be in a position where the owners are telling me how happy they are that they own at Southcape Resort.  Stick with me, help me out and let's all make that happen.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Festiva is not going to "get the upper hand" at Southcape.  If you really want, I can still make arrangements for you to have a membership in the Festiva Adventure Club.  Just let me know and I'll make it happen.


----------



## e.bram

NEVM:
Why should sou13 or any deeded owner want to be a member of Festiva Adventure Club. What are the possible benefits for the expense and loss of the fee simple ownership deed. You are just adding another legal entity to deal with.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

E.bram

Festiva points are no different than RCI Points, Bluegreen Points or any other points system.  They're really not for everyone.  However, for those owners who can benefit from a points system, Festiva actually has one of the better ones in the industry.  I have no idea whether points would work for Sou13 or not.  I've been a member of RCI Points since they were first offered and I love it.  I'll be joining Festiva personally before much longer as well.  The way I choose to use my vacation time works perfectly with points.  This is not the case for every owner.  The increased flexibility is only one of the potential benefits.  I know a lot of points owners with different systems and almost all of them are very happy with the points product.

While this isn't a forum on the benefits/detriments of points, I would point out that Festiva points at Southcape are optional, just like the choice of whether to join II or RCI or neither.  No one is being forced to join points in any way at all.  From a resort management perspective, we don't care if people join Festiva or not.  There is neither an advantage or disadvantage to the resort.  It's merely a question of personal preference depending on how you want to take your vacations.

If I were to dual affiliate the resort with both II and RCI would you still say it's "just adding another legal entity to deal with" or would you congratulate me for providing owners with more options on taking their vacations?  Why is Festiva any different than II or RCI?  It's just another option.


----------



## e.bram

What would be SC owner's chance of getting a week 26 thru 34 with Festiva points. If I have such a fixed week it is 100%.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

If you own a week 26 - 34 at Southcape, you come every year.  If you're a member of a regular exchange, you never really know.  It depends on what's deposited at the time you make your request.  There are too many variables to give definitive answers.  The advantage with point is that there is a set value for weeks 26 -34 and, when you make your exchange request, if one is available and you have enough points, your exchange is confirmed instantly.  Even if you don't have enough points, you can usually rent extra points for a nominal fee to use to make an exchange.  With points, the guess work and mystery is taken out of the exchange.  If you have the points needed, you're going, if you don't you're not.  What points does is commoditize the timeshare market so that relative values of weeks are exposed and transparent to everyone.  No more "well, some red time is more valuable than other red time".  Every week at every resort has a fixed value which makes the exchange much easier and harder for salespeople to mislead you.

I love points!

Just remember, no exchange can give you a week unless and until an owner deposits that week with the exchange company!


----------



## e.bram

NEVM: You state that thereis no difference between RCI poins and Festiva points. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. RCI points results from the owner leasing his(her) unit for three years(renewable at the owners request). The owner retains deeded ownership and first dibs on his "converted" (leased )week. Festiva points from what a understand has the owner surrender his(her) week to Festiva in perpetuity(Festiva now owns the week) and gives up all rights to his(her) original "converted" week.
So I beleive there is a great difference between these points systems.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

While there is a difference in the structure, in the practical application of points systems there's not a lot of difference.  Points are points are points.  Festiva is not the only one where owner's deed their week to become of member of the trust operating the system.  

Many resorts, including a number that I work with, no longer sell deeded ownership at all.  Many of them are selling a "timeshare license" where there is no deeded interest on the part of the owner at all.  There are many reasons for this, not the least of which is it eliminates the need for foreclosure if an owner refuses to pay maintenance fees.  The cost of foreclosure can often exceed the value of the week so many resorts are stuck in a limbo if an owner refuses to pay.

The timeshare industry is changing and, in most cases for the better.  No one has ever been able to convince me that a deed protects an owner any better than a beneficial interest in a trust, for example.  It is different and many people don't like change, even if it's ultimately to their benefit.  I've had this discussion for years with some of the top legal minds in the industry and I would never sell a deeded interest again if I had my choice.  It's just not good for the resort overall.


----------



## e.bram

But I care about me , not the resort overall. I want to go to the Cape or New port on weeks 25 thru 34(when kids and teachers have off)guarenteed. The only way I can do this is with a deeded fixed week or RCI points(as far as I know). If another option NEVM please tell me, I am all ears.


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## e.bram

SOUTHCAPE should have a tea party. No TAXATION w/o representation!!!


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Whether it's points or regular exchange, you can only exchange into something that's been deposited.  Whether they talk about it or not, even the regular exchange uses something similar to points to determine the relative value of one week versus another.  At least with points, the exchange is transparent and you know exactly how many points you need to go somewhere.  It's not at the whim of the exchange company.

Finally, if you really want to go to a very high demand area in the high demand season, the only way to be sure to get there is to buy a week. Otherwise, it will always be hit or miss.  Fact is, you've got a better chance to get there with points than any other way.

Finally, you've got representation . . . you've got me!!


----------



## e.bram

NEVM:
How can you get me prime weeks thru your representation?
I guess like the Colonies had King George of England.
I would rather be represented by George Washington!


----------



## NEVMSLLC

LOL, what you're looking for in representation couldn't be done even by George Washington.  Perhaps you should learn in more detail how the exchange system works to see what it takes to get a prime week in a prime location.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> LOL, what you're looking for in representation couldn't be done even by George Washington.  Perhaps you should learn in more detail how the exchange system works to see what it takes to get a prime week in a prime location.



Cliff,

I respect what you have to say about timeshare development, but I think there are a lot of people on TUG that would take exception to your statements on what it takes to get a prime week in a prime location.

I am going to assume you mean either something like a holiday 4th of July week rather a prime week in the summer, or you are referring to a prime week at a smaller resort that you are affiliated with.

For instance we are going to a 5-star resort on Captiva Island over Thanksgiving this year. We do not own there.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> There are many reasons for this, not the least of which is it eliminates the need for foreclosure if an owner refuses to pay maintenance fees.  The cost of foreclosure can often exceed the value of the week so many resorts are stuck in a limbo if an owner refuses to pay.
> 
> No one has ever been able to convince me that a deed protects an owner any better than a beneficial interest in a trust, for example.



These two statements seem to conflict with each other. As you note in the first statement, a deeded week provides the owner with more legal protections against foreclosure. The increased cost is due to the legal process the resort/HOA has to go through based on real estate law. You always are going to have more rights regarding tangible/real property, over a "membership" in something.


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## e.bram

NEVM:
But I with other tax(MFs) paying citizens(owners) could vote George Washington(BOD) out, if I did not care for his(their) representation. We can't vote you out(like King George). SC owners need to have a TEA PARTY.


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## e.bram

You acn be a happy owner of a SC week 19 2br unit for a $1.00 on Ebay.
.
NEVM: You could make easy big bucks and sell it for $5000.00+ bucks.


----------



## Sou13

*You are kidding, aren't you?*

*"If you really want, I can still make arrangements for you to have a membership in the Festiva Adventure Club.  Just let me know and I'll make it happen."*
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84127&goto=newpost

ROFLOL!  Mr. Hagberg, I've been wondering whether you have me confused with someone else.  You couldn't seriously make such a suggestion if you've "read all my posts" as you claim you have!

Here's what happens when unwary deeded owners get suckered into convering to Festiva points:

_*The other odd highlight was when one very loud man verbally protested that a woman who was repeatedly asking many questions prior to the alloted time was in attendance at the owners meeting- he pointed out hat as she had bought into "Festiva Adventure Club" she had no business being there with owners. While his point was technically correct, she up and left and I think everyone was embarassed for this poor lady who fell victim to the Outfield Marketing people by deeding her units to Festiva and buying into their club.
After being there for three hours I left after the business portion of the meeting but before the Q & A time. That was about 4 or 5 hours ago....they're probably still doing questions and answers now!* _http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82489&page=2



NEVMSLLC said:


> Festiva is not going to "get the upper hand" at Southcape.  If you really want, I can still make arrangements for you to have a membership in the Festiva Adventure Club.  Just let me know and I'll make it happen.


----------



## Sou13

*Now whose leg are you trying to pull?*

*"If I were to dual affiliate the resort with both II and RCI would you still say it's "just adding another legal entity to deal with" or would you congratulate me for providing owners with more options on taking their vacations? Why is Festiva any different than II or RCI? It's just another option."*

Now whose leg are you trying to pull?  Southcape Resort is already affiliated with both II and RCI and it was optional.  The only difference was that your choice of II or RCI depended upon whether you owned in Southcape I or Southcape II, and now I'm not even so sure about that!

I've been searching online for Southcape owners who are trying to either sell or rent their weeks and found one who owns in Southcape I but claims that he belongs to RCI.  That's a new one for me!  I let my five-year membership in II expire because I never got any use out of it other than a bill and lots of promotions trying to convince me to upgrade to II Gold membership.


NEVMSLLC said:


> E.bram
> 
> Festiva points are no different than RCI Points, Bluegreen Points or any other points system.  They're really not for everyone.  However, for those owners who can benefit from a points system, Festiva actually has one of the better ones in the industry.  I have no idea whether points would work for Sou13 or not.  I've been a member of RCI Points since they were first offered and I love it.  I'll be joining Festiva personally before much longer as well.  The way I choose to use my vacation time works perfectly with points.  This is not the case for every owner.  The increased flexibility is only one of the potential benefits.  I know a lot of points owners with different systems and almost all of them are very happy with the points product.
> 
> While this isn't a forum on the benefits/detriments of points, I would point out that Festiva points at Southcape are optional, just like the choice of whether to join II or RCI or neither.  No one is being forced to join points in any way at all.  From a resort management perspective, we don't care if people join Festiva or not.  There is neither an advantage or disadvantage to the resort.  It's merely a question of personal preference depending on how you want to take your vacations.
> 
> If I were to dual affiliate the resort with both II and RCI would you still say it's "just adding another legal entity to deal with" or would you congratulate me for providing owners with more options on taking their vacations?  Why is Festiva any different than II or RCI?  It's just another option.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

At Southcape, units 1 - 31 are affiliated with II and units 32 - 55 are affiliated with RCI.  I only want all owners to have a choice of either exchange company.  Do you not think that's a good idea?


----------



## Sou13

*Not the way you're proposing to change things!*

If units 1-31 are already affiliated with II how will we now be able to join RCI?  The option of joining II for units 32-55 is available only by converting deeds to membership in the Festiva Adventure Club . . . truth or "untruth"?  (I'll have to wait until tomorrow to view your reply to this one, so please take your time and answer other questions such as those posed by Russ45).


----------



## NEVMSLLC

I want to affiliate the entire resort with both exchange companies so owners can freely chose between them.

I'll answer any questions that I can answer you should already know that.

Finally, believe me, i don't have you confused with anyone.


----------



## Scpe

> *I want to affiliate the entire resort with both exchange companies so owners can freely chose between them.
> *


NEVMSLLC

Hello,

For what it is worth I was at Southcape recently and met with the NEVS (or Outfield Marketing) representative for the new Festiva points system being sold. This guy clearly stated that RCI was out and that the only choice would be II and Festiva.  He went as far as to to show us the past two years of RCI catalogs to illustrate how more resorts are leaving RCI each year. Regarding units 32-55, it looks like that if they desire to participate in an exchange program they will have to join the Adventure Club provided by Festiva. As Sou13 indicated, this would mean converting their deed to a membership -- at a cost of approximately $3095.00 (3300 minus the 400 assessment if already paid, + 195 application/filing fee).


----------



## SCapeOwnersRUS

*Wow if this can be proven it may be of Interest to The Attorney Generals Office*



Scpe said:


> NEVMSLLC
> 
> Hello,
> 
> For what it is worth I was at Southcape recently and met with the NEVS (or Outfield Marketing) representative for the new Festiva points system being sold. This guy clearly stated that RCI was out and that the only choice would be II and Festiva.  He went as far as to to show us the past two years of RCI catalogs to illustrate how more resorts are leaving RCI each year. Regarding units 32-55, it looks like that if they desire to participate in an exchange program they will have to join the Adventure Club provided by Festiva. As Sou13 indicated, this would mean converting their deed to a membership -- at a cost of approximately $3095.00 (3300 minus the 400 assessment if already paid, + 195 application/filing fee).



If this can be proven it may be something that should be called to the attention of The Attorney General of The Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
There has NEVER been a satisfactory answer regarding the interwoven relationship and agenda of NEVS Outfield and Festiva


----------



## Scpe

SCapeOwnersRUS said:


> If this can be proven it may be something that should be called to the attention of The Attorney General of The Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
> There has NEVER been a satisfactory answer regarding the interwoven relationship and agenda of NEVS Outfield and Festiva


Hi,

Just to expand on the identity of the gentleman we met with, he stated he worked for NEVS, however he did not have a business card indicating that. He did give us a generic business card belonging to Outfield Marketing LTD that only states the business name, not his or anyone else's name.

Paul


----------



## SCapeOwnersRUS

*Attorney General?????*



Scpe said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just to expand on the identity of the gentleman we met with, he stated he worked for NEVS, however he did not have a business card indicating that. He did give us a generic business card belonging to Outfield Marketing LTD that only states the business name, not his or anyone else's name.
> 
> Paul



*Underscores the possibility of looking into with the Attorney General ?*


----------



## Sou13

*AG question*

*"Underscores the possibility of looking into with the Attorney General?"*
Are you interested in looking into this?

A Southcape owner who has contacted the Massachusetts AG's office has advised me that complaints have to be in writing and that if the AG gets enough of them some action is more likely to be taken.

However, there has to be some violation of some statute in order for some action to be taken.

Here's what happened in MO:

An Equivest/Peppertree owner received the information from the Missouri Attorney General in the mail.  Here is a recap:


State of Missouri  v  Festiva Resorts, LLC / A Nevada Limited Liability Company.

The first few pages include the Introduction; Parties; Venue; Jurisdiction; etc., and the complaint was raised under that State's Merchandising Practices Act.

The report goes to identify the specifics of that Act which were violated.

Specifically, 

a,  It was considered that Festiva falsely promised consumers that Defendant would sell consumers' currently owned time share at a different resort to induce consumers to purchase a tie share from  Defendant; 

b, Misrepresenting to consumers that Defendant would sell consumers' currently owned time share at a different resort to induce consumers to purchase a time share from Defendant;

c, Falsely promising consumers that if they purchased a time share from Defendant, Defendant would assist consumers in renting the purchased time share at the Cabins at Green Mountain thus inducing consumers to purchase a time share from Defendant;

d, Misrepresenting to consumers that if they purchased a time share from Defendant, Defendant would assist consumers in renting the purchased time share at the Cabins at Green Mountain thus inducing consumers to purchase a time share from Defendant; 

e, Falsely promising consumers that Defendant would "take back" consumers time share at Cabins at Green Mountain if consumers were not satisfied to induce consumers to purchase time share from Defendant;

f.  Misrepresenting that Defendant would "take back" consumers time share at Cabins at Green Mountain if consumers were not satisfied to induce consumers to purchase time share from Defendant; 

g,  Giving consumers the false impression that if they purchased a time share from Defendant they could easily book condominiums in desirable locations at desirable rates when same was not true.

h, Misrepresenting the ability and ease with which consumers would be able to obtain various travel services after purchasing a time share from Defendant;

i, Misrepresenting the prices or terms at which consumers would be able to obtain travel servies after purchasing a time share from Defendant;

j,  Engaging in the unfair practice of failing to give the consumers adequate time to examine the material and documents related to the time share prior to the consumers purchase of the time share;

k,  Employing the unfair practice of imposing an extremely short time limit on consumers' purchasing decisions, such as requiring a decision before the consumer left the sales presentation, thereby creating an artificial sense of urgency.  When coupled with Defendants' high pressure tactics, this practice has the effect of causing consumers to be likly to make a hasty decision on a majoy purchase;

In conclusion, As a direct result of Defendant's Merchandising Practices Act violations consumers have sustained in excess of $200,000.00 in damages in out of pocket losses which Defendant Festiva Resorts, LLC has converted to its own use and benefit, and, if not enjoined will convert funds of other victims in Missouri and nationwide using the same forbidden merchandising practices.  Defendant's actions also taint the reputaiion of the Branson area and damage to reputable time share vendors in the Branson ares.

So there you have it.  The representatives of Festiva promised the sun, the moon and the stars and told every kind of lie they could think of at the time to make a sale.

This entire document is about 25 pages long. 

Now online...

http://clubhause.com/manila/gems/home/avc.pdf

http://clubhause.com/manila/gems/home/petition.pdf

( You'll need adobe reader...
http://get.adobe.com/reader )



SCapeOwnersRUS said:


> *Underscores the possibility of looking into with the Attorney General ?*


----------



## Rebecca

*Cliff - No response to my request?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> I've said right from my very first post that I will not discuss legal issues, period, and I meant it.  If there are questions other than legal ones, I'm happy to answer them, otherwise, you can ask away but this is not the forum to address those issues and I won't be baited into it.
> 
> I find it curious that, with all of the issues facing Southcape, not one owner has asked questions about them, nor has a single owner asked what they can do to help.
> 
> The question of trustees, etc. hasn't changed in twenty years and it's no different now, except that there are new trustees who actually want to fix the problems.  Not one question about what's gone on the past twenty years with the former developer.  Not one question about how did the resort get into this situation and what is being done to correct the neglect of the last twenty years.
> 
> I guess the owners who haven't cared the last twenty years still don't care what happened and what's being done to fix things.  We do have real issues at the resort and I'd like to talk about them and I do want input from owners about what needs to be done to fix things.  I'm just not going to respond to name calling, libel and innuendo.
> 
> So let's go, folks.  If you really do care about the resort, let's have a discussion about Southcape.
> 
> And by the way, Fig, I'm not the least bit anxious to get rid of Eric.  I have a lot of respect for him and I respond to him even though he's not an owner.  I do that for one reason, he actually listens and, even though we don't always agree, I think we at least respect each other enough to try and understand the differing viewpoints.  If we had more owners like Eric, I'd be delighted.  Now if we could only focus on the problems facing Southcape . . .



Hi Cliff,

I am happy to learn that you are still available to answer questions.  I am, however, dismayed to see that you haven't given me the courtsey of an answer to my questions.  As I previously stated, I understand and respect that you do not wish to answer legal questions, and I didn't actually pose any legal questions, however, as my parents are owners, and I will be an owner when I inherit from them, I do have some legal concerns over the status of the title of the condominium.  It is for that reason that I asked, and am still asking, who is the attorney for the association, so that I may direct my legal questions to them.  

Please understand, I am trying to get a handle on Southcape from the ground up.  I would love to know about the maintenance issues and what exactly the assessment is being used for.  I was hoping that there would be a detailed explaination of these items, the 2008 budget, and the 2009 budget at the owners meeting.  

Therefore my questions remain:
1) who is the condo association attorney?
2) will there be at attorney at the association?

Thanks,
Rebecca


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## NEVMSLLC

Hi Rebecca

I do hope you'll understand why I won't identify the association's attorney in a public forum.  My concern is that they may be inundated with questions from owners and, to have them respond individually could end up being a huge expense for the association.  I will discuss the issue with them and see what solutions they might suggest.

There are no plans for an attorney to be at the owner's meeting as there is nothing on the agenda that will require their attendance.

Cliff


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Rebecca
> 
> I do hope you'll understand why I won't identify the association's attorney in a public forum.  My concern is that they may be inundated with questions from owners and, to have them respond individually could end up being a huge expense for the association.  I will discuss the issue with them and see what solutions they might suggest.
> 
> There are no plans for an attorney to be at the owner's meeting as there is nothing on the agenda that will require their attendance.
> 
> Cliff



Cliff,

I fully understand the need to control costs, and that the association attorney cannot be expected to respond to any question that a owner might raise.

However, you previously stated that the association's attorney reviewed the transfer of control from the previous developer to NEVS. I assume that they billed the association for the time required to review the Master Deed. Was their a work product from this review?

Likewise, there are numerous questions about the legality of NEVS not paying m/f on the units they own. As part of the review, has the association attorney rendered a legal opinion on that issue?

I am not asking for you to answer any legal question. Just in your role as Trustee, do you know if their is work product produced by the association attorney on these issues.

Thanks


----------



## NEVMSLLC

While the association attorney has reviewed everything, there is no written opinion.

This is the last time I will address any legal question.


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## e.bram

First. Any legal opinion by NEVM hired atty would state the interpretation of the ruling legal issues would be for their benefit. Some "Happy Owners" have to chip in and hire their own atty to analyse the issues for their behalf. Perhaps start a legal action which thru discovery get answers to all the questions being posed here ,in writing and sworn to. 
The "Happy Owners" need to start a tea party to stop being taxed without their representation(only Cliff's as stated in a previous post)
If some "Happy Owners" know of or can find help from a law school legal clinic, they should try that approach, rather than the atty gen.
Most law schools have lrgal clinic where they use law students under guidance of a professor to help people with public interest legal problems. I think this might be an interesting case for them.


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## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> While the association attorney has reviewed everything, there is no written opinion.
> 
> This is the last time I will address any legal question.



So how did they provide their legal opinion - was it a high-five or a thumbs up? 

I recommend a group of owners send a letter to the trustee's asking that a legal opinion on the non-payment of m/f be obtained from the association attorney, with a cc: to the respective attorney. It probably will not accomplish much, but down the road it might demonstate the intent of the respective parties. It will also put the association attorney on notice that their is a question on the legality of the m/f. Down the road, they will not be able to claim ignorance.

Cliff - I know you do not want answer legal questions, but you really are eroding the trust you want to foster. You will not answer legal questions, nor will you put owners in contact with the party that can answer the questions. Nor do you seem to be willing to have the association attorney provide any answers to the owners. This only leads in one direction, the owners banding together to have outside counsel review the deed and provide a opinion. If everything is legal as you maintain, this review should already have been done by the association attorney, and a written opinion easily obtained. The association is paying the expenses of the attorney. What are they paying for?  It all gives the appearance that there is something to hide.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

There are legal opinions and they have been reviewed by the association's attorney.  It made no sense to pay the association attorney to offer an opinion again when he agreed with the other opinions.

This is no different than it's been for almost 30 years.  NEVS assumed the same developer and declarant rights that have been in existence for all that time.  Further, the bank's attorney signed off as well or the bank would not have financed the purchase.  In all, four different law firms have reviewed the documents and there is no disagreement between them.  NEVS has developer and declarant rights.

As I've stated repeatedly, everyone has ignored the fact that NEVS has assigned the rental income from its weeks to the association in lieu of maintenance fees.  This is something that NEVS absolutely did not have to do.  The assumption that NEVS is in some way hurting the association is completely untrue.  

Let's not forget that NEVS is in the process of correcting the problems and neglect of the past twenty years.  For the first time, the resort has a balanced budget, association money is being kept in a local bank instead of a bank in NJ, we have a computer system that now actually works, repairs are being made to keep the resort from falling down, lawsuits with the town are being settled, the demand of the town for a sewage treatment plan has been removed, delinquent owners are being turned over to collections, the resort is no longer using next year's maintenance fees to pay current year expenses, wireless internet is being installed throughout the resort, the equipment in the fitness center that was falling apart has been replaced, a new website that will allow better owner communication will be up and running the next couple of weeks, for the first time in twenty years there are actual trustee meetings taking place, for the first time in twenty years the resort has a reserve account.  There is more but I hope you get the idea that Southcape resort has never been in better shape and it's all because of NEVS.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> There are legal opinions and they have been reviewed by the association's attorney.  It made no sense to pay the association attorney to offer an opinion again when he agreed with the other opinions.



Then share the opinions the attorney reviewed. I think the owners have a legitimate right to question why NEVS is not paying m/f on their inventory. You have previously stated that you do want to answer that question, as it is a legal issue. And you will not provide any documentation that supports NEVS not paying m/f. How do you suggest that owners get a straight answer to this question? Are you suggesting that they just accept your word that you are not required to pay the m/f?

The fact that the previous developer did not pay m/f is not germane to the discussion. Should the owners ignore the situation because it has existed for so long? If so, then why not apply the same logic to the other owners who have not been paying m/f and have not been foreclosed upon like your stated plan.



NEVMSLLC said:


> NEVS has developer and declarant rights.



This is not in dispute, and is not the question at hand.



NEVMSLLC said:


> As I've stated repeatedly, everyone has ignored the fact that NEVS has assigned the rental income from its weeks to the association in lieu of maintenance fees.  This is something that NEVS absolutely did not have to do.  The assumption that NEVS is in some way hurting the association is completely untrue.



No one is ignoring this fact. There just is no documentation or guarantee that  the association will receive revenue that equals the m/f's due on the units. I fully understand that you did not need to assign the rental income back to the association. You are not hurting the association, and you seem to be a more benevolent dictator then the previous one.



NEVMSLLC said:


> Let's not forget that NEVS is in the process of correcting the problems and neglect of the past twenty years.  For the first time, the resort has a balanced budget, association money is being kept in a local bank instead of a bank in NJ, we have a computer system that now actually works, repairs are being made to keep the resort from falling down, lawsuits with the town are being settled, the demand of the town for a sewage treatment plan has been removed, delinquent owners are being turned over to collections, the resort is no longer using next year's maintenance fees to pay current year expenses, wireless internet is being installed throughout the resort, the equipment in the fitness center that was falling apart has been replaced, a new website that will allow better owner communication will be up and running the next couple of weeks, for the first time in twenty years there are actual trustee meetings taking place, for the first time in twenty years the resort has a reserve account.  There is more but I hope you get the idea that Southcape resort has never been in better shape and it's all because of NEVS.



There is no doubt that you are on the right track and will improve the resort. Congratulations on doing so. Your position seems to be - "hey I am doing so much good, ignore the fact I am not paying m/f on my inventory". However you also know that once all those improvements have been made, your inventory will be much more valuable then it is today. So do not act as if your intentions are entirely altruistic.

And all the owners are asking for is an answer to why you are not paying m/f on your units. You can settle this issue very easily if you want to. So drop the "I get no respect" routine.


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## NEVMSLLC

Did I touch a nerve with you Eric?  What I'm telling you isn't a "routine", it's the truth.

If you agree that NEVS has developer and declarant rights, then NEVS is not obligated to pay maintenance fees.  Period, end of issue.

You don't even have to believe me, you can look it up yourself.


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## ecwinch

Cliff,

You are not touching any nerves on my end. You are just proving that you do not want to answer the question and to prove that you are exempt from m/f.

I have looked it up, as have some of your owners. I can only find one questionable provision that supports your position. That you are exempt from capital assessments is clearly stated. Not so on expenses.

You do not seem to be able to substantiate your position, nor do you seem to want to put the issue to rest. One has to wonder why.

As I said before, your attitude on this issue can only lead in one direction - that the owners seek outside counsel. If in your role as Trustee you refuse to answer the question, or provide access to the legal opinions that support your answer, the owners really only have one course of action. And do you really want owners talking to an attorney at this point, when you can easily put this issue to rest if it so clear.

BTW - you should check to make sure your D&O policy is up to date - not that it will protect you from willful acts. You really should go back and read the Bluebeards case.

And to the owners, add the bank as a cc: to the letter requesting a legal opinion on the m/f. Lenders tend to get nervous in situations like this.


----------



## JackB62

*Special Assessments and other issues*

I'm glad to see the discussion continues. Eric, please be our lawyer!

Cliff, as an owner for over 25 years, I must relate a few things to all who are participating. In all this time the owners have never had a Special Assessment issued to them. MFs were perhaps too reasonable, but still roofs were repaired, furniture replaced and public areas kept up.

Your repair project re-replaced several roofs that had been replaced within the last ten years. You used the SA for some much-needed work, but also to "beautify" the resort to help meet your sales goals for Festiva.

I don't think you should be a part of both the management and your other sales firm.

Also, the rental income estimate is exaggerated for the coming year. And the inventory you are holding will Never Generate Maintenance Fees for the Resort Again! A responsible Declarant would be trying to sell the intervals, not only rent them.


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## JackB62

*Another Reason to Sell Them*

If everything was running according to plan, the Declarant would be trying to sell his inventory so that he wouldn't have to pay his share of Maintenance Fees anymore.


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## Sou13

*More old letters found*

I don't want to detract from the discussion but the day after I found the "Southcape Rumor Mill" and trustees' report from 1990 I also found a letter from International Vacation Sales, Inc.  It was dated April 17, 1992, and signed by Clifford Hagberg, President.

Here's what he had to say:

_International Vacation Sales, Inc. is proud to announce the establishment of an *inhouse resale program* for Southcape owners.

As the former developer and project director for The Ocean Club on Smuggler's Beach, I became aware of the need for a responsible and effective resale program to serve the changing lifestyles of resort owners.  As a marketing consultant to time share projects in the United States and Europe, it became evident to me that there was no adequate resale company providing this service.

International Vacation Sales, Inc. (IVS) was created to fill this void by offering you the on-site services of highly trained professionals; available sevendays a week to assist you in getting the most from your time share purchase._

He goes on to give three ways in which IVS is different from other resale companies.  I won't reproduce the rest of the letter because I want to focus our attention on The Ocean Club on Smuggler's Beach.  I did an online search for the homepage and it couldn't be found.  The best I could find was http://www.intervalworld.com/web/cs?a=1503&resortCode=OCS&parentResortCode=OCS

My question is, who currently owns the "developer rights" to The Ocean Club today?  Is it sold out and run by an HOA?


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## e.bram

Sell, i don't think NEVM can give away his TSes(look at ebay). I think Oceancliff(RI) dumped the developer and the HOA took over the unsold units.(I din't know the details, anybody?)
The only big money is selling the units as wholly owned condos.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> Let's not forget that NEVS is in the process of correcting the problems and neglect of the past twenty years.  For the first time, the resort has a balanced budget, .........for the first time in twenty years there are actual trustee meetings taking place, for the first time in twenty years the resort has a reserve account.  There is more but I hope you get the idea that Southcape resort has never been in better shape and it's all because of NEVS.



Eric is so talented discussing legalities. I have been reading in awe. Keep it up Eric.

I am not legally trained but I do have some common sense. Since MF's have remained really low at Southscape for over 20 years while previous mgt at the resort somehow paid the expenses(housekeeping,electricity,insurance, etc), and since against all odds the previous mgt company kept Southscape operating for over 20 years without ever having a balanced budget, this sounds like a mgt company any resort would love to employ. Heck I would love to have them manage at any of my resorts. They sound like some frugal managers. I would bet that they wouldn't have replaced a 10 year old roof with a new roof just because they had to roof some older roofs on other buildings. 

The fact that they could keep the resort operating for over 20 years on MF's that totalled less than expenses and that they somehow maintained the buildings with no reserves shows that they are a heck of a lot better resort management team than NEVS. Those were great resort managers. Anyone can keep raising MF's to pay expenses and anyone can keep assessing to improve and renovate the resort. It takes a good mgt company to keep a resort in good shape while keeping MF's low and having few if any assessments. Cliff and Festiva could take some lessons on how to save owners money from other management companies like SPM, VRI, and many others. Of course the other mgt companies have to keep costs low and amenities in good shape if they want to remain the mgt company. These mgt companies aren't tied to the developer or sales and can be fired by owners and the board if they don't provide a great resort experience for the least possible cost. No owner control of the resort and the board is always bad for the owners.

Next time the Trustees have one of those wonderful meetings perhaps they could discuss cost cutting measures that would benefit owners rather than the assess, spend, and renovate budgets currently being utilized to benefit NEVS. After all the owners have to pay all the assessments and all the increased MF's while NEVS pays nothing. Owners have no trust in the Trustees because they have no say in what they get billed for or how much they get billed courtesy of the trustees and their meetings. 

At Southscape the term trustees actually means business partners (NEVS, Outfield, and Festiva). At Southscape the definition of an owner is " someone who pays 100% of the capital outlay to increase the value of NEVS property while never getting to share in any of the NEVS profits".

The MF's are higher than ever at Southscape. The first ever assessment at Southscape has been levied. As you said so well Cliff, it is all because of NEVS.


----------



## bobcat

ecwinch said:


> Cliff,
> 
> You are not touching any nerves on my end. You are just proving that you do not want to answer the question and to prove that you are exempt from m/f.
> 
> I have looked it up, as have some of your owners. I can only find one questionable provision that supports your position. That you are exempt from capital assessments is clearly stated. Not so on expenses.
> 
> You do not seem to be able to substantiate your position, nor do you seem to want to put the issue to rest. One has to wonder why.
> 
> As I said before, your attitude on this issue can only lead in one direction - that the owners seek outside counsel. If in your role as Trustee you refuse to answer the question, or provide access to the legal opinions that support your answer, the owners really only have one course of action. And do you really want owners talking to an attorney at this point, when you can easily put this issue to rest if it so clear.
> 
> BTW - you should check to make sure your D&O policy is up to date - not that it will protect you from willful acts. You really should go back and read the Bluebeards case.
> 
> And to the owners, add the bank as a cc: to the letter requesting a legal opinion on the m/f. Lenders tend to get nervous in situations like this.


 Too bad we can not come up with a count of UNhappy owners and HAPPY HAPPY owners.  NO points for us. Cliff ,I am still waiting for an answer for an email several weeks ago that was sent to you and Southcape sent me an answer , We will email you Monday. However, the email did not say what year.  UNHAPPY OWNER>   BUY  ME  OUT.


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## Sou13

*Are we on the same page?*



e.bram said:


> Sell, i don't think NEVM can give away his TSes(look at ebay). I think Oceancliff(RI) dumped the developer and the HOA took over the unsold units.(I din't know the details, anybody?)
> The only big money is selling the units as wholly owned condos.


Are we talking to each other, e.bram?  My question is about The Ocean Club at Smuggler's Beach, not Oceancliff in RI. 

I see that Developer Hagberg is online so how about filling us in on when, how, and why you got out of that resort?


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## Sou13

*Festiva on ABC News*

Aired recently in NC:

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/video?id=6790741 

According to the report there had been 150 complaints to the NC AG to date, and the number of states in which complaints are being made is growing.

Festiva claims that these complaints are the result of third party marketing which Festiva claims it no longer uses?  But FestivaRep informed us that Outfield Marketing is "contracted" to sell Festiva conversions!  That's not "outsourcing"?


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## Fig

Sou13 said:


> Aired recently in NC:
> 
> http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/video?id=6790741
> 
> According to the report there had been 150 complaints to the NC AG to date, and the number of states in which complaints are being made is growing.
> 
> Festiva claims that these complaints are the result of third party marketing which Festiva claims it no longer uses?  But FestivaRep informed us that Outfield Marketing is "contracted" to sell Festiva conversions!  That's not "outsourcing"?



This may touch upon why Cliff refuses to comment on the relationship among NEVS, Festiva and Outfield Marketing. 

Outfield Marketing is clearly selling Festiva. What is unclear is the arrangement Cliff has with Outfield and Festiva. He has appointed their sales people and CEO to be trustees and says they care about Southcape. What do the Outfield Marketing "trustees" do other than try to charge Southcape owners $3,000 to give up deeds to convert to a point system for a company that has been cited by one Attorney General and is under investigation with another?  Everything I have read about Festiva and Outfield is pretty bad.


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## ecwinch

I had thought from earlier posts that an owners meeting was upcoming. Just curious, but when is the owners meeting?


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## Sou13

*Tell that to John*



NEVMSLLC said:


> At Southcape, units 1 - 31 are affiliated with II and units 32 - 55 are affiliated with RCI.  I only want all owners to have a choice of either exchange company.  Do you not think that's a good idea?


_Hi once again: I know for certain that it trades with RCI. I just went up and checked my confirmation for this year and I'm in unit 09...previous weeks have been in units 01 and 04. Went on their website and it states they have 2 groups of accomadations...#1-31 and #32-55. By the description only 1-31 has any lofts, which I've stayed in and ours has the fireplace not the jacuzzi as well as a patio not a deck. The location of the units are beside and opposite the outdoor pool. Just who is advising you that they don't trade with RCI?...someone with RCI?...someone with the resort? I doubt it. Don't know what more I can tell you. I believe that 1-31 are float weeks and 32-55 are set weeks. If that's the case, call the resort (I gave you the website address earlier) and get your information direct from the resort itself. I'm not trying to put one over on you but I don't have any idea why whoever advised you told you that. Ask if float weeks are different units than a set week and if they trade with RCI or not. Tell them you are interested in a resale float week and just want some info. Hope this helps...John_


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## Sou13

*Southcape 2003*

SOUTHCAPE RESORT AND CLUB 
950 FALMOUTH ROAD 
MASHPEE, MA 02649 

2003 marked the 20th anniversary of the Southcape Resort and Club and it was a good year.  We hope that 2004 is better than the weather this year and that more and more of our members use the resort. The annual meeting will be held on May 8, 2004 at NOON. 

Looking back, the cost to operate the resort increases every year. The cost of utilities, taxes, insurance and wages are a necessary evil and completely out of our control. As the units get older, more maintenance is required. We found it necessary to raise the maintenance fee by a few dollars to $490.00. Looking forward, we received the Hospitality Award from RCI and we are in the running to be designated as a Resort of International Distinction. We will probably increase our rental fees this year like we have done the past four years. The demand has been increasing every year along with modest 
increases in our rates. 

One thing that would help our rates would be if we could offer the renters a Friday and Saturday in the same unit. At the annual meeting, there will be a discussion of the various ways to accomplish this. If you cannot attend the meeting, please write your constructive suggestions to the resort. 

I would like to mention a potential problem concerning beach passes. The town has been holding meetings about the abuse of beach passes and they will more than likely raise the fees and tighten the controls. We are trying to keep the same procedures as in past years where we could have the passes at the resort and control them instead of making every guest go to a municipal location to obtain a beach pass. 

We are soliciting your comments on how to assign the float weeks on a more equitable basis. Some people have been shut out of the assignment of weeks because they do not understand when and how to make a reservation. We are gathering information from other resorts on how they assign the weeks. Hopefully, at the annual meeting we will have a consensus of opinion to offer to the entire membership. If you want a copy of the minutes of the annual meeting, please send a self -addressed, stamped envelope to the resort. 

The collection of unpaid maintenance fees decreased in 2003, but we hope they will increase next year and eliminate the need to raise the maintenance fees like other resorts have had to do. From time to time we accept reconveyances from delinquent members and offer them to our members. If you or any of your friends are interested in being an owner of one of these opportunities, please call Carol Scully at 508-477-4700, Ext. 204.


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## Sou13

*October 2004*

*Southcape Resort News *​*October 2004*​
*Southcape Rentals Still Going Strong​*
*By: Christine Woods*

The summer of 2004 was a rough one for many businesses on the Cape.  Many retail stores, hotels, and restaurants showed losses of nearly 20%. In contrast to this, Southcape's summer demand only increased. 

Because rentals were up in July by $12,000 and August over $1,000 over the previous year, we were able to make significant improvements. Renovation took place on units 1-5 and several roofs between units 1 and 31 were replaced. The outdoor pool was retiled and repaired and the entire property was pruned.

We will continue this effort in the upcoming year so we can make the Southcape experience as enjoyable as possible for our owners.

*There are still discounted weeks available for sale! ! ! !​* This is a great way to introduce someone to timeshare !

*If interested, please contact our sales manager, Carol Scully at (508)-477-4700 ext. 204*


*Important Announcements for the Upcoming Year*​
*Robert P. Woods*
Trustee

*<> Maintenance Fees*

Although real estate taxes were up in 2004, there will be NO increase to maintenance fees this year.

*<> Annual Meeting*

Many owners attending last year's meeting requested that the date of the meeting be changed. Therefore this year's meeting will take place on May 14th, 2005, the Saturday AFTER Mother's Day.

*<> Renovations*

At last year's meeting, I promised the attendees we would review the condition of units 32-55 and plan for renovations. I apologize for the delay, but it was impossible to determine how much in funds to allocate.  We determined that we would totally renovate the 5-unit block of condos 38-42 in 2005. Since most years we do 6 or 7 units, Southcape can use the additional monies saved for the units that need the most work, i.e. the ones needing carpets and sofas. We anticipate that units 43-49 will be totally renovated in 2006.

*<> The Town*

The sidewalk at Route 28 is complete and offers our owners the benefit of walking to the new grocery store and the Mashpee Commons (which last summer added an Ann Taylor and a Pottery Barn).

*<> Maintenance Staff*

We are pleased to announce the addition of two new hardworking and capable individuals to Southcape's staff: Evarist Almeida and Rick Hendricks.


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## JackB62

*Wasting our money*

Sou 13,

Nice job digging up the past info on maintenance plans, etc.

Where's Cliff? No reaction to re-roofing on our dime?

Jack


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## ecwinch

I suspect Cliff's quest for putting to rest untruths became like a battle with the proverbial Hydra. Every question answered led to more questions, and the more he spoke the worse it got.


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## tombo

Sou, Cliff said repeatedly that no upkeep or renovations had been done until he arrived. I see that they replaced several roofs, renovated several units, retiled the pool and pruned the whole property in 2004. Then they talk about which 5 units will be renovated in 2005 and state that they typically renovate 6 or 7 units every year. In 2004 they had already made plans to renovate 7 more units in 2006. 

It doesn't sound like the Southscape Cliff described where no upgrades had been done in 20 years, and none were going to be done until he and NEVS showed up. Isn't TUG a wonderful place where total strangers can share information that informs people what the truth is as opposed to spin. In the past Sou couldn't have shared that information with anyone he didn't know. Now anyone who Googles Southscape can read and become enlightened.

Good job Sou.


----------



## bobcat

tombo said:


> Sou, Cliff said repeatedly that no upkeep or renovations had been done until he arrived. I see that they replaced several roofs, renovated several units, retiled the pool and pruned the whole property in 2004. Then they talk about which 5 units will be renovated in 2005 and state that they typically renovate 6 or 7 units every year. In 2004 they had already made plans to renovate 7 more units in 2006.
> 
> It doesn't sound like the Southscape Cliff described where no upgrades had been done in 20 years, and none were going to be done until he and NEVS showed up. Isn't TUG a wonderful place where total strangers can share information that informs people what the truth is as opposed to spin. In the past Sou couldn't have shared that information with anyone he didn't know. Now anyone who Googles Southscape can read and become enlightened.
> 
> Good job Sou.



So why did they need the 400.00. We should try to have them give it back. Sounds like MAY 16 th is going to be an interesting meeting.


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## ecwinch

For it to be an interesting meeting, I think the owners need to have a plan. Hopefully someone is organizing a plan. 

Unfortunately I am not an owner. I know Cliff will miss me.


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## tombo

Eric the owners should get you to organize a plan and chip in for a plane ticket for you to attend. Cliff would be so surprised.


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## Sou13

*Southcape 1990*

*January, 1990
Dear Southcape Member:

It's official. Fred Sateriale and Rick DePamphlis have retired and Bob Woods and i are the new Resort Owners/Managers. Bob is the Owner/President of C & E Credit and I am the owner of the Park Lane in Atlantic City Bob Woods will provide computer services to the resort and will be paid for those services. We will not be paid for management services that we provide to the resort.

The first thing that we did was to meet with the employees and find out what they were supposed to do. Then we reorganized the resort and eliminated everything that was unnecesary.

We met with your elected officials and agreed that the Community Association, with all members having an equal voice, would operate the resort for the benefit of all.

The biggest problem with the resort, after the fact that the expenses were out of control, is that there is "nothing to do." We are going to add a full schedule of activities including owners parties, group and individual tennis lessons, weekly tennis matches (with prizes from beginners to experts), coffee klutches, ice cream and rum swizzle parties, card and bingo games that will be enough to fill any vacation, just to name a few.

In order to keep your maintenance fees as low as possible and help you enjoy the resort more than just one week a year, we are going to open the season on March 9th with a Murder Mystery Weekend! Please see the enclosed flyer for all of the details. All of the money generated from this weekend will be used to reduce the maintenance fees. The refreshments will be catered by the owner of The Flume Restauraunt. All of you who have visitied his restaurant know it is one of the finest on the Cape.

For the Summer we will build an area next to the outdoor pool for your entertainment.

Before we open the sales to the general public, we are going to give you one last opportunity to add another week to your vacation plan at the lowest prices ever offered.

Lois has the new reduced price list and can be reached by calling the main number 508-477-4700. While you are talking with her ask her about our Royal VIP program that can be a lot of fun for you while you make money just for helping us promote SOUTHCAPE.

Setting the dues for 1990 was a difficult task. We do not know the resort as well as you do, but we are aware of some of the problems that we face. We like to consider them "OPPORTUNITIES" rather than problems. Although we have cut expenses everywhere, we have to set the annual maintenance fee at $350.00 per interval. Every owner at SOUTHCAPE will pay the same fee and all of the money that we receive for the use of the inventory will also be given to the maintenance fund. We hope to have a surplus by the end of the year and be able to reduce the annual fee, however we are still at the mercy of the tax essessor and will be going back to court unless she changes her discriminatory attitude.

Please complete the enclosed postcard and mail it back to us with your maintenance fee as soon as possible. We need the funds to upgrade and maintain the property. We want to receive the Five Star Award again and we need your help.

Lastly, we would like you to become part of the PARK LANE family. Either Bob or I will be at the resort as much as possible and would enjoy meeting you. In the meantime, please look over a special offer we have for you to take a mini-vacation in Atlantic City, practically for free. You will get more back than the cost to stay with us and have the chance to win at tables and BEAT the one arm bandits.

(signed) "Southcape Staff"*


Sometime in June or July of 1990 I received an unpostmarked 15 cent postcard containing

*NOTICE OF ANNUAL MEETING*​
*The annual meeting of the interval owners of Southcpe Reosrt and Club, Mashpee, Massachusetts, will be held on July 28, 1990, from Noon to 2 p.m. at the resort.  Only those members in good standing may attend.  You may pay your maintenance fee at the resort before the meeting.

The following agenda will be strictly adhered to:

Noon:  Call to Order
12:05  Introduction of New Trustees
12:20  Discussion of 1990 Budget
12:30  Status of Tax Appeal Case
12:45  Beach Sticker Procedure
 01:00  Water System Conversion
 01:15  Telephone System
 01:30  Predictions for the Future
 01:45  Discussion and Suggestions for Improvements from the Members*

Following the annual meeting I received the following.  It was mailed for 25 cents and contained 3 8 1/2 sheets stapled together and mailed without an envelope.  It included detailed financial information taken from the accounting records received from the previous trustees on November 17, 1989.  I am unable to copy and paste those reports into this discussion (this is available by email to anyone who requests it)* but here is the report:

*SOUTHCAPE RUMOR MILL				
AUGUST, 1990 

The first annual meeting of the Southcape Community Association, Inc., that included Southcape Condominium Trust I and Southcape Condominium Trust II was held at Southcape on Saturday, July 28, 1990. Over 150 members attended the meeting. The joint meeting was made possible because on November 17, 1989, Rich DePhamphilis, Ed Conforti and Fred Sateriale resigned as trustees of Southcape Condominium Trust II and Southcape Community Association, and Bob Woods and Vince Barth became the new trustees.  Shortly thereafter, Joe Bottari and Bill Graham, trustees of Southcape Condominium Trust I and the two new trustees delegated the management of Southcape to the Community Association. 

We have collected $ 541,346.79 in maintenance fees from the members and paid out $ 2,112.15 to run the resort for you. We will try to collect the maintenance fees from the delinquent members.  If they do not pay, we will put a lien on their property and foreclose on the weeks that we can resell.  In the meantime, a delinquent member will not be permitted to use the Southcape resort or exchange for another resort.  Any money remaining at the end of the year will be put into a reserve and used to refurbish the units. 

The tax situation is a mess. The case was settled, but is not binding on 1990 and the future. The units were assessed for more than they were in 1986 to 1989, and we have appealed that assessment. The money that was returned for the past years was spent to pay the bills and keep the resort open. There is no way we can refund any money to you from the tax refund. We are sorry. This was before our time. We are trying to reduce the assessed value and the taxes for 1990 and the future. Your share of the real estate taxes is approximately $66.00 of the maintenance fee per week of ownership. 

On the positive side, we are now connected to the Mashpee Water System. NO MORE BROWN WATER. The cost to connect our water system to the town water was $28,000 rather than the $155,000 projected cost due to the efforts of Bob Woods and Vince Barth. We were able to pay for this connection out of the maintenance fees and did not have to assess you for additional money. The cost of the water in the future will be based on consumption. We purchased beach badges for you to use during your vacation. This saves you the time and money getting your own badge. Cable TV will soon be available to all units. We signed a two year contract. We are studying the phone system to make permanent improvements. 

A constructive suggestion from one of the members was for a newsletter. Please consider this your first newsletter and that a11 future issues will get better. 

Another member took us to task over the decision to combine the duties of the three trusts and the management company into one. We did this to improve the resort, reduce the operating costs and lower the maintenance fees. We reduced expenses by $180,000 in six months, saved $129,000 in accounting fees and realized a one-time savings of $127,000 on the water system conversion. One member complained the owner of the unsold weeks does not pay a maintenance fee. The Master Condominium Documents do not require the owner of the inventory to pay maintenance fees. 

The same member who complained about combining the trusts that already saved you over $436,000 complained about the lack of a certified audit. Woods & Barth discharged the previous CPA firm, outside bookkeeping service, computer programmer and two internal bookkeepers when they took over. All of the accounting is being performed by Bob Woods and your new manager, Pam Summersall, as part of her duties, and the tax returns are prepared by the corporate accountant of Barth Management Corporation. Last year, you paid $135.000 for these services and since the reorganization, the cost to date has been $2,700 for the bookkeeping and filing of all tax returns. The disgruntled member made a motion for an audit. No one voted for an audit--not even the member who made the motion. Included with this newsletter is a copy of the tax information given to the IRS and State. Any member may review the receipts and disbursements upon request in the resort office. We have nothing to hide. The next meeting will be held at twelve noon on the last Saturday in July, 1991, at your resort. A public address system will be used and all matters to be discussed must be submitted in writing to the resort before May 31, 1991. If you wish to serve as a trustee, please submit a letter summarizing your qualifications and reasons why you should be elected. 

One of the biggest improvements accomplished at Southcape has been the computer system. The computers at the collection agency and the resort are now able to transfer information about your about your account as simple as dialing a phone. The resort knows in advance of the guests arriving who has paid the maintenance fee. Naturally, no one is admitted if the maintenance fee is unpaid. In the past it could always be argued that the check was in the mail, or that the information was not up to date. 
Not now...within minutes that your check is received at the collection agency, the resort records are updated and can be accessed at any time. 

Change of Procedure. When the two new trustees took over, we asked the attorneys to give us a binding opinion in writing about the rental policy that was in effect at the resort. It was our belief that many of the things going on at the resort violated state and federal laws. We were specifically interested in the real estate laws. 

Our suspicions were correct. The resort is not authorized to rent units for the individual owners. The resort does not have a Broker's License and the employees are not licensed real estate salespersons. They are permitted to take the information and tell the customer to call the owner of the week, or to have the owner call the potential renter. There is no fee for this service and it will be just as satisfactory. 

Condo I Trustees are: 
Joseph Bottari 24 Azalea Drive, Milton, MA 02186     			        617-696-5887 
Bill Graham 19 Pine Tree Lane, Andover, MA 01818     			 617-653-9614 
Stephen Kyriacou 77 Denslowe Drive, San Francisco, CA 94132 			 Unknown

Condo II Trustees are: 
Vince Barth P.O. Box 345, East Stroudsburg, PA 18301 				 717-421-8059 
Bob Woods P.O. Box 299, Emerson, NJ 07630            			 201-265-7778 

Your Resort Manager is: 
Pam Summersall Route 28, Mashpee, MA 02649 		    		 508-477-4700 

Your Reservation Manager is: 
Diane Gonzalski 950 Falmouth Road, Mashpee, MA 02649 			 508-477-4700 

You make your payments for maintenance fees to: 
C&E Credit Consultants P.O. Box 299, Emerson, NJ 07630 

Southcape Community Association Trustees are: 
Bob Woods, Bill Graham, Joseph Bottari and Vince Barth 
All Cape Resort Management, Inc., is inactive. 

Would you like to own a unit at Southcape for your exclusive use? 

The trustees have six units that can be used for year-round residential and/or second home vacation use. Instead of sharing the unit with 50 other members, it would be yours to use or rent. 

There would be a small monthly fee that would relieve you of the chore of maintaining the exterior of your property and give you unlimited use of the recreational facilities. 

If you always wanted to live on the Cape, now is your chance. 
The units will be offered to our present interval owners starting at the reduced price of $149,000, without commissions to pay. They will be offered furnished and unfurnished, and we would be willing to refurbish any of the units before settlement. If interested, call-1-800-233-3038.             






RUMOR MILL	
SOUTHCAPE RESORT
PO BOX 1198
MASHPEE MA 02649*


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## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Eric the owners should get you to organize a plan and chip in for a plane ticket for you to attend. Cliff would be so surprised.



That would be interesting. Maybe Cliff's offer of a free night still is open, so I would have somewhere to stay.  

From hearing the brief recap of the SandPointe meeting - where they ejected a Festiva owner that had converted their week -  I do think the owners do need to put Cliff on notice that the issue of the non-payment of m/f on developer inventory needs to be addressed in the meeting. If it is so clear, it should be easy to do so, but I can see Cliff saying that the association lawyer is not available, so no legal questions can be addressed. And that is a legal question. I doubt that he will be so arrogant to the owners - "go look it up".

I also can see him writing off any concerns to the instigation of non-owners on TUG, and that the resort has been doing this for 30 years.

I would follow my previous recommendation to send a letter to the Trustees requesting that the previously mentioned legal opinions be made available during the meeting for review. I would attach to that the letter a list of owners on whose behalf the request is being made, with their name, address, unit, and week number. I would also add a request that a discussion of the matter be added to the agenda for the upcoming meeting.

If Cliff fails to address the concerns adequately, then that same group of owners should file a complaint with the Mass AG office. If that office received 20-30 complaints, they would certainly investigate. The resort is still in developer sales.

I would also request a copy of the public offering statement for the development. This is a document the developer has to provide with any sales prospect. I doubt that document meets the disclosure requirements of the Mass Timeshare Act, particularly in light of disclosures that Cliff has made here. If it does not contain the required material disclosures, any new sale of a timeshare unit could be rescinded outside the normal recession period.


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## Sou13

*Southcape 1985 Annual Meeting Minutes*

MINUTES OF THE ANNUAL MEETING
JULY 3l, 1985​
The Annual Meeting of Southcape Resort & Club Condominium I was held at the Resort on Wednesday, July 31, 1985. The meeting was called to order at 10:33 a.m. by Edward Conforti, Trustee and Resort Manager.

Mr. Conforti introduced the Board of Trustees, Joseph Bottari, Mel Melle, and Donald Buese as well as Attorney Michael Dunning and Attorney Elizabeth Mcll!'1chols.

Attorney McNichols determined that there was present, in person or by proxy, 38.68% of the beneficial interest of the Trust, representing a quorum, and the meeting proceeded.

The Notice of the Annual Meeting was read by Attorney McNichols.

Mr. Conforti discussed at some length the billing procedure for maintenance fees and taxes. The annual bills for maintenance fees and real estate taxes will be mailed no later than January 15th of each year, and will be due by March Ist. If not paid, the delinquent assessments will bear interest of 18% per annum.

Mr. Conforti read the financial report and a lengthy discussion ensued regarding Condominium assessments that had gone unpaid, some as far back as 1983. Balances in the accounts as of 7/31/85 were as follows:

Checking/Savings $27,302.22
Reserves/Replacements 47,450.17
TOTAL $74,752.39​
There were unpaid delinquencies of $70,668.25, of which $19,000 was accumulated from 1984.

Attorney Michael Dunning spoke on delinquent maintenance fees –unpaid assessments by Unit Owners. He said that, in the future, if fees were not paid by March Ist, that they would allow for a grace period until April Ist, or April 15th, and at that time, a I!Notice of Lien" would be recorded at the Barnstable
County Registry of Deeds setting forth the amount of lien plus costs and attorney's fees. He said that a section of the Master Deed concerning the non-payment of maintenance fees would be sent to the Unit Owners along with a copy of the Minutes of the Annual Meeting. He further stated that a Unit Owner would not be alloweQ to occupy their Unit if the assessment were not paid, and that the Trust would rent the Unit to cover the cost of the Maintenance fee.

NEW BUSINESS: Mr. Conforti discussed the practice of Unit owners using the Community Center, pool, tennis courts, etc. , when they are not occupying the Units. Unit owners are life-time members of the Southcape Resort Community Center. While staying at the Resort the use of the facility is complimentary except for a $4.00 per hour Indoor/Outdoor fee when the court lights are operating.
Owners may use the facility when not staying at the Resort, at which time they would pay $2.50 to swim and the same fees for court usage as any member would pay. Remember outside members pay an annual fee of either $150 or $200 for single or family membership. (subject to increase)

Mr. Conforti announced that Southcape Resort was the recipient of the prestigious 5 Star Achievement Award from Interval International. This honor was bestowed on the Resort at the National Timeshare Convention held in Nashville, Tennessee on May 8, 1985. The achievement award was based on a survey of all the exchanges' to Southcape Resort. At the present time there are only seven 5 Star resorts in the Northeast. The 5 Star winners are further distinguished by a special logo accompanying their photographs in the 1985-86 Interval International directory. .

Mr. Conforti introduced all of the employees of the Resort, indicating their consistent performance under adverse conditions was most significant in acquiring this national recognition.

Maintenance fees were discussed. Mr. Conforti said that in 1985 98% of the Units were sold. The Resort was experiencing maximum usage. He stated that the cost of utilities had risen sharply, especially in the winter months, and he hoped that the Owners would do all they could to conserve energy. He also stated that salaries at the Resort had been frozen by the Trustees, and that they had cut back on supplies, etc., to keep costs down and the budget (which is fixed) under control.

Mr. Conforti spoke briefly about some correspondences he had received concerning the issue of bonus days, cable television, check-out procedures. and communications between Management, Trustees, and Owners.

He recommended that more Unit Owners apply for bonus days in the early part of the year, since all of the other weeks were fully reserved. As to cable television. which is not available to Mashpee, Mr. Conforti talked bf a satellite dish. but indicated that this expense was not budgeted for 1985.

Current check-out procedures were discussed. Mr. Conforti stated that the current practice of checking Unit Owners out was instituted to protect the interests of the Unit Owners as bath towels and other items had been missing and damage had been done to property in the Units. Units will be checked prior
to the Unit Owner leaving. and at that time the key will be placed in the inspector's hand and the interval owner will vacate the Unit.

A number of Unit Owners requested that they receive financial statements and a list of major expenditures, but it was determined that this was too expensive for Homeowners to mail out. The Board. of Trustees are responsible for all major decisions involving expenditures of funds. Anyone desiring to run for office please forward a written resume to the management office.

It was brought up on several occasions that the Resort was in desperate need of a computer. A mailing had been sent out earlier to get the Unit Owners' opinions as to whether or not a computer could be helpful, and the majority ruled in favor of it. The Board of Trustees will continue the discussion for
the acquisition of a computer during their meeting immediately following the AI1J'tUal Meeting .

Comments from Don Buese: Mr. Buese thanked Mr. Conforti for a job well done and continued success for the Resort.

Questions from Unit Owners: Responses from Mr. Conforti or Attorney Dunning.

The major concern for Unit Owners seemed to be their inability to reserve bonus time. The second major concern was the increase in maintenance charges, which was discussed at great length. In regard to bonus days, Mr. Conforti produced an occupancy status report which noted that the majority of bonus days usage occurred during the months of January through March. Although bonus days
are available during the full float period, they are less likely to be available during the high demand periods. Remember the Resort is 98% sold with over 1,000 float owners eligible to reserve up to a maximum of 18 months in advance. It is imperative that each Owner make his reservation as soon as eligible. Even though future plans may be uncertain Owners can always cancel or trade for a
different period of time at another resort.

Mr. Conforti then addressed the concern over increasing maintenance fees.  An article from the Cape Cod Times and another article from the Boston Globe highlighted the increase in labor costs. “Everybody in the tourist industry is being hit" said Maureen A. Wells, economic development analyst for the Cape
Cod Planning and Economic Commission. "The once extreme case -like $11 an hour for a chambermaid -is getting to be normal." Waiters, chambermaids, and snackbar attendants are all in demand, she said. The Town of Mashpee has three time share resorts all competing for service help; our maids, who started at $5.50 per hour, now receive $7.50 per hour. Utilities have increased as has the cost of service contracts, beach permits, and firewood (which is shipped to the Cape). The legal process continues to collect over $70,000 cumulative delinquencies on maintenance fees and real estate taxes.

Mr. Conforti introduced a survey of the seven "Double 5 Star" resorts in the Northeast. A comparison between Trapp Family Lodge and Southcape showed an identical $230 maintenance fee even though Trapp Family Lodge had 1,100 sq. foot units and fewer indoor amenities. Ponds at Fox Hollow's maintenance fees range from $170 to $359 based on the size of unit and whether it was prime time
or off-season time. Deerhurst Inn, Canada, (40 year right to use) ranges from $220 to $290 based on size of unit.  Deer "Run Village, Catskills NY, ranges from $250 to $320 based on size of unit. Harborside Inn, Martha's Vineyard, has an annual fee of $189 but their units are 300 sq. feet and they are only
open 30 weeks a year. Shawnee Village, Delaware, has annual fees ranging from $180 to $200 but they have 325 units. As Southcape Resort expands a portion of all management salaries will be disbursed over the new units thus stabilizing, if not actually decreasing, fees in the future.

Question: What are the plans for future development at Southcape Resort?

Answer: At this time negotiations for the purchase of the undeveloped land and the building of additional units continues.

Question: Will future development mean future expansion of amenities at Southcape?

Answer: I have no idea at this time of any future expansion, but feel that future development would necessitate expansion of the esisting Community Center.

Question: What about insurance coverage?

Answer: The property has liability coverage for $1,000,000. (Note: Each Owner can extend their Homeowners policy to list Southcape Resort as a secondary residency thus protecting them personally from any liability if a guest were injured inside the unit).

Question: Who approves the budget?

Answer: As part of the management contract and in accordance with the By-laws of the Master Deed, the Board of Trustees estimates the net costs and expenses to be incurred during each fiscal year. Each unit owner shall be subject to regular annual assessment no later than January 15. The Board consists of five members: the Resort manager, two elected Homeowners, and two appointees from
the Hallwood Group. (See Addendum).

Question: Do you foresee the maintenance fees increasing, and if so, approximately what will next year’s maintenance fee be?

Answer: Mr. Conforti stated that in January he requested a $250 maintenance fee which was vetoed by the Board of Trustees. With the increase in usage and labor cost, $250 will be a likely increase for 1986.

Question: Bonus days and check-out prcedures?

Answer: Mr. Conforti produced an occupancy status report showing the 521 of 529 bonus days for 1985 were taken between January and March 31st. As for check-out procedures each owner is responsible for calling 477-4702 when prepared to check-out, at which time a supervisor will be sent down to accept the keys and inspect the unit.

Question: The $35 split week fee should not be charged to owners who made their reservations in 1984 for 1985.

Answer: The January maintenance billing included a cover letter stating the $35.00 split week fee would be charged. The management team is empowered to make decisions in the best interest of all Owners.

Mr. Conforti concluded by stating that Management and Homeowners were working together in efforts to run an efficient business. This is not a hotel but rather a second home for all Owners. We are a non-profit organization that depends on a conscious effort by all to help implement the same energy and cost saving methods that apply at home.

Meeting adjourned at 12:15 P.M.

Addendum: Article IV, Section 3, of the By-laws of the Master Deed.

Section 3. Timing of Assessments: At least sixty (60) days prior to  the commencement of each fiscal year of the Corporation (or in the case of the fist fiscal year, not later than sixty (60) days after the commencement of that year), the Board shall estimate the net costs and expenses expected to be incurred during such fiscal year for the operation of the Corporation and the maintenance, operation, improvement, and administration of the Community Facilities (exclusive of significant capital improvements and other extraordinary expenses covered by Section 4 of this Article), together with a reasonable reserve for contingencies and replacements.. Upon so determining these expenses, which shall be subject to regular annual assessment, the Board shall render, not later than January 15th, to each Unit Owner or Owners' Association, a written statement specifying his or its allocable share thereof. Such statement shall provide for payment of the assessment, which shall be due and payable no later than March 1st of each year. If the Board fails so to determine the new annual assessment prior
to commencement of the Corporation's fiscal year, then the previous year's assessment shall continue in effect until such time as the new assessment is determined by the Board and statements are rendered with respect thereto. In the event the Board determines during any fiscal year that the annual assessment so made is less than the net costs and expenses actually incurred, or in the reasonable
judgment of the Board likely to be incurred, for the above purposes, the Board shall make supplemental annual assessments and render statements therefor, which shall be due and payable within thirty (30) days of the rendering of such statements.  In the event a Residential Unit is rendered uninhabitable by fire or other casualty, the Board, in its discretion, may abate all or a portion of any charges assessed
under this Article against the Unit owners of such Residential Unit while it remains uninhabitable.


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## Sou13

*Southcape 1985 Board of Trustees*

BOARD OF TRUSTEES MEETING
July 31, 1985​
Meeting called to order.

Quorum established.

Meeting attended by Trustees: Joe Bottari, Edward Conforti, Don Buese, Mel Melle.
Gerald Culbert absent.

Minutes of prior meeting read and approved.

Item: Old Business

Following action to be taken by Southcape Management:
- Post hours for Jacuzzi (odd - Adult, even - Children).
- Sign "No Glass in Pool Area" to be posted.
- As for the purchase of a specific computer, Mel Melle (Chief Financial Officer of the Hallwood Group) will spend time examining the operating, financial and reporting procedures for Southcape Resort. His analysis will be reported to the Board with suggestions and recommendations.

Item: Bonus Days

Due to the limited availability of Bonus Days (primarily January-March), the Board voted unanimously to increase the fee to $40.00 per night with a minimum of two nights per stay. Price effective January of 1986.

Item: Delinquencies

The following steps will be taken regarding owners units that are delinquent 30 days prior to occupancy. The Management Company will have the right to rent the unit with the proceeds broken down as follows: amount of rental minus delinquent maintenance fee and real estate taxes, plus accrued interest, recording fees, attorneys' fees and any other incidental expenses.  Any remaining funds will be forwarded to the delinquent owner.

Item: Telephones

Unanimous vote to buy all phones rather than pay a rental fee.

Item: Reserves and Replacements

Voted unanimously after lengthy discussion to stagger replacements of water heaters; 5 per year for the next six years or as necessary.

Discussion of acquisition of lawn tractor, fitted with a mower deck and pull trailer, tabled until next meeting at which time a detailed report will be presented.

Discussed replacement of dining room chairs, some sofas and love seats, mattresses and box springs and fogged Thermopane windows.  Tabled until next meeting, at which time a financial update will be available for analysis.

Meeting adjourned.

Next meeting November 15, 1985.


SPECIAL MEETING OF BOARD OF TRUSTEES
AUGUST 27, 1985​
Meeting called to order.

Meeting held by telephone by Trustees (Joe Bottari, Gerald Culbert, Edward Conforti, Don Buese, and Tom Hartigan).

Item: Discussion of sale of undeveloped land and Management Company.

The Hallwood Group' Inc., (NYSE-HWG) announced the sale of Southcape Resort & Club and its undeveloped land to Richard DePamphilis and Frederick Sateriale. Further, Southcape Management, Inc., will be replaced by All Cape Resort Management Company, Inc. All management personnel have been retained by the new management company.

Item: Vote to accept new Management Company. Vote unanimous.

Item: Vote to accept the resignations of Trustees Don Buese and Thomas Hartigan. Vote unanimous.

Item: Vote to appoint Fred Sateriale and Rick DePamphilis to the vacant Board of Trustees positions. Vote unanimous.

Item: Mr. Bottari requested a special meeting of all the Board of Trustees be called to discuss future plans for Southcape Resort. Vote unanimous.  Date to be determined.

Meeting adjourned.


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## Scott_Ru

My wife is at Southcape at the moment and she reported the following:

1)  Units 1-21 have been re-sided and wood replaced.  They may not have completed all of them but they have done most and they look good.  The the roofs have also been repaired/replaced.
2)  The exercise room has new, upscale equipment -- 2 new treadmills, 2 new elipticals, weights etc.  The old equipment had been donated and was in very bad shape.  Jane says it looks good now.
3)  The swimming pool has been repaired and repainted.  "Looks great."
4)  Very bad winter left the patio outside the main office cracked and useless ... it's been all redone and looks very good.

Scott


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## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Maintenance fees were discussed. Mr. Conforti said that in 198598% of the Units were sold.



I assume that reads "Mr. Conforti said that in 1985, 98% of the Units were sold. "

That is an interesting statement. Makes you wonder what portion of the 500 weeks of developer inventory have never been subject to a prior sale. It might be worthwhile to start looking at deed recordings to see if there are numerous transactions where individuals deeded back their week to any one of the previous developers, and if Cliff is claiming those takebacks as developer inventory.

It is also interesting to note that previous Annual Meetings had the association attorney in attendance, and that the board of trustees had 5 members. Is it three members now? I thought a change of that nature would require changes to the By-Laws - which requires an owner vote.

Maybe that will be outlined in some other minutes that Sou13 uncovers.


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## e.bram

The owners(dissadent) should chip in and bring their own lawyer to the meeting. Who wants to hear the legal opinion of the opposite side. In most legal cases, even where both sides have good lawyers, one usually loses.


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## Sou13

*Southcape 1984*

Dear Interval Owner:

As we usher in the New Year, Management would like to take this opportunity to reflect on the operations of Southcape Resort. The completion of sales operations for 1984 has left a very limited
amount of intervals to be sold at special cash rates. The following are points of importance:

•	Study of cleaning costs indicated $22.50 per night Bonus Day charge was insufficient; therefore, an jncrease to $29.00 per night and a two day minimum stay.
•	As of January I, 1985, split week owners will have to pay a $35.00 fee in order to split their weeks. The reason being each maintenance fee calls for one unit clean-up. The cost of cleaning a unit is presently $35.85, this includes maids salaries, FICA expense, chemicals used, and cleaning and stock supplies.  If a person splits his week there are two unit turnovers involved, therefore, in the past everyone has been paying for that additional unit clean-up.  
•	During maintenance weeks each unit will be wallpapered in high volume areas as well as repainted and repaired.  
•	An increase in activities through outside memberships, increased court income, video equipment, vending machines, and a tanning booth will help reduce the deficit of operating the clubhouse.

Float week owners should make their reservations as soon as possible -do not get shut out. Also, once your reserved time at Southcape has expired, it is then possible to make a reservation for 1986.

Remember, Southcape Resort is a NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATION where all owners share equally in its operating expenses. The future of your resort depends on a conscious effort of each Interval owner to maintain the high standards as well as incorporate the same energy savers as a home owner. Those who abuse the facilities and show noncompliance for rules and regulations will face additional charges.

Enclosed please find a copy of your 1985 budget. The increase in maintenance is in line with the $15.00 assessment which was necessary to close out operations for 1984. Also, the budget reflects rising
operating costs as well as expected inflationary increases. We are confident that 1985 will reflect continued growth and improvement of your five-star resort.

Sincerely,
Edward  H. Conforti
Resort Manager

EHC/mt
Enclosure


Dear Interval Owner:

In response to the Annual Homeowners Association Meeting, the following concerns have been addressed:

INDOOR POOL​
The indoor pool has been renovated. All leaking pipes replaced, cracks in fiberglass patched, tiles replaced, and pool repainted.

VIDEO EQUIPMENT​
Video equipment has been installed in the community center, to help in forming a kids center.

HOMEOWNERS DELINQUENCY​
Active efforts by the law office of Terry, Dunning, and Terry have lowered the delinquency of Maintenance and Real Estate Taxes from $39,480.00 to the present amount of $19,588.54. This
represents in a 6% bad debt expense for year to date.

RESERVES AND REPLACEMENTS​
At the present cost of operations, reserves and replacements is projected to total $25,000.00 at the conclusion of 1984. The Board of Trustees have determined that in order to supplement reserves and operating cost, a one-time special assessment of $15.00 per interval is warranted.

Enclosed please find the minutes of The Board of Trustees Meeting and notice of the special assessment.

Respectfully,
BOARD OF TRUSTEES
SOUTHCAPE HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION

BOT/mt

Enclosure


BOARD OF TRUSTEES MEETING​
July 31, 1984

Establishment of The Board of Trustees
•	Election of Joe Bottari, and Gerald Culbert to Board along with existing Board of members Steve Thurtle and Edward H. Conforti.
•	A certificate of proxy for Allan Long was presented by Mr. Thurtle.

A quorum was established.

Discussion of New Business

Budget versus year-to-date figures were inspected.

Unanimous vote for reduction of reserves to $25,000.00.

Unanimous vote to postpone vote on special assessment until Board of Trustee Meeting on October 12, 1984. In order to allow mianagement to implement the following cost saving procedures:

Unanimous votes on the following:

•	Reduce maintenance staff by one employee.
•	Reduce paper products and supplies to one of each and no back-ups.
•	Approval of energy savers and check-out procedures to be posted in each unit. Also, approval of Board of Trustees to bill owners for extra cleaning, damages, or noncompliance with rules and regulations.
•	Increase collection of delinquent homeowners dues. Agreed not to honor float reservations for delinquent owners.
•	G. Culbert requested copy of all utility bills for study.
•	Discussion of $20.00 deposit at check-in for all interval occupants.  Tabled for future discussion.
•	Voted to look into the cost of payground equipment.
•	Voted to have Homeowners Association Stationary printed.

Meeting adjourned until October 12, 1984.


BOARD OF THE TRUSTEES MEETING​
October 12, 1984

Call Meeting to order at 12:30 p.m.

Quorum established.

Minutes of prior meeting read and approved.

Homeowners association stationary approved.

Check-out and energy saving notices posted on back of front doors to all units.

NEW BUSINESS

Deposit for breakage discussed, decision to monitor the units closely until the next meeting on January. (Unanimous Vote)

All of the following items were unanimous votes:

•	Any unpaid damages will be added to 1985 maintenance and real estate bill for that owner.
•	No glasses in the pool area. Also, no smoking or eating in the indoor pool.
•	Review of the year-to-date budget versus actual figures. Despite cost savers, a $15.00 one-time special assessment per interval owned was deemed necessary. 
•	July 31, 1984, meeting acknowledged the community center was running at a $60,000.00 deficit, homeowners fees were $39,000.00, delinquent and reserves were to be established at $25,000.00.Presently, Homeowner dues are $19,000.00 delinquent (approx. .06%), the community deficit has been reduced to $20,750.00. Projected figures for October -December show a $15.00 assessment will cover necessary expenses.

Discussion of storage facility to be built with washer and dryer facilities. Feasibility study to be prepared for January 4 meeting on cost versus long-term saving as well as improved working conditions for housekeeping staff.

Prepare and mail 1985 budget to all trustees for approval.

Expenses for the Board of Trustees was proposed. A fixed fee of $100.00 per meeting to cover all expenses was voted on.

Next meeting January 4, 1984, at 11:00.

Meeting adjourned.


NOTICE OF SPECIAL ONE-TIME ASSESSMENT​
Pursuant to a meeting of The Board of Trustees on October 12, 1984, in lieu of borrowing money, a special assessment of $15.00 per interval owned has been deemed necessary, in accordance with
the Declaration of Trust of the Master Deed and subject to the provisions of Chapter 183 of the General Laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

This amount is due within thirty (30) days of the rendering of this statement. Any assessments remaining unpaid thirty (30) days after the due date for payment shall accrue interest from paid date at a rate equal to eighteen percent (18%) a year.

The money from this assessment will be placed in your interest bearing reserve and replacement account at The Bank of New England.

Respectfully,

BOARD OF TRUSTEES

Southcape Homeowners Association, Inc.

BOT/rot


----------



## Sou13

*Still searching for documents*

Sometime in 1985 I received a proxy form from the mortgage company.  I could find only 1/2 of that notice but from that 1/2 I assume it was assuring me that my vote was assigned to the Hallwood Group, Inc., and that the vote would be in the best interest of the resort.  *Here is the text of the piece of the notice that I found:


The annual meeting of the
on Wednesday. July 31. 1985. a
on Route 28. in Mashpee, MA-

The Trustees of Southcape
As you may recall. your m
Corporation contains an assign
Hallwood Group. Inc.. or its s
mortgage. This proxy will be
mortgagee deems will promote t
and the best interests of the
Please let us know whethE
EHC/mt


Now I'm wondering whether NEVS is entitled to vote on anything if there is a mortgage on their 500 units.

I'm still searching but have posted these documents in order to shed some light on past activities and whether we are being told "untruths" here.

The above 1984 mailing also included a detailed budget which I am unable to copy and paste into this discussion.  Anyone who would like a copy of this budget can obtain it by emailing me for documents (you must be able to open attachments).  I've learned how to make these documents into PDF files in order to be able to attach large files to email.

This text file is a reproduction, not an exact replica, of the document.  I have tried to faithfully reproduce the text without making corrections that excaped the editor's attention.

This Southcape adventure has been a learning experience for me.  Thank you for your patience!


----------



## ecwinch

e.bram said:


> The owners(dissadent) should chip in and bring their own lawyer to the meeting. Who wants to hear the legal opinion of the opposite side. In most legal cases, even where both sides have good lawyers, one usually loses.



I agree that this would be ideal. However to be meaningful, the attorney would need to become familiar with the governing documents. 

Hearing the opinion of the opposite side gives you a starting point. Then you can make a more informed decision without incurring the considerable expense required to have a lawyer review the documents. 

By having a methodical approach you can do a lot of initial legwork and discovery on your own without the expense of a lawyer. Then a lawyer has a lot more to work with. If you lawyer up in the beginning, you just start the meter running earlier, and often in matters that you can handle on your own.

It becomes what AwayYouGo always says - "how much justice can you afford"?


----------



## e.bram

Yeah, but a lawyer can go to court(for not too much money in Barnstable Cty,not much going on there) and demand all the necessay documents(sworn to as to authenticity)easily and quickly. Agood place to start rather than begging Cliff and not know if you are getting all the papers.


----------



## ecwinch

My experience with the legal system is different than yours. But it should be investigated. I think you still have the same problem however.


----------



## Sou13

*Southcape 1984 Manager's Report*

Dear Interval Owner: 

Enclosed please find an updated Vacation Calendar thru 1988 and the Minutes of the First Annual Meeting of Southcape Resort & Club Condominium I Trust. I would like to take this opportunity to personally thank the over 230 people who traveled to attend the Homeowners Association Meeting. I feel the concern and input from each individual owner will only enhance the future success of our resort. 

Since the meeting, the following topics of discussion have been addressed: 

1. A brand new hydrastatic pump has been installed. The resort now has two pumps on line that will allow for a constant flow of water and a minimal amount of heavy iron concentration. 

2. The outdoor pool has had all missing tiles replaced and brought back to original shape at no additional cost. 

3. We are in the process of petitioning the town for permits to place video equipment in the clubhouse to help form a kids center as well as increase revenues to combat the deficit that presently exists in the community center. 

Respectfully,
Edward H. Conforti
Resort Manager 

EHC/mt 
Enclosures 


MINUTES OF THE FIRST ANNUAL MEETING
CONDOMINIUM I TRUST
Tuesday, July 31, 1984​
I. The meeting was called to order at 10:30 a.m. by Edward H. Conforti, Trustee and Resort Manager. 

2. Mr. Conforti read a copy of the Notice of Annual Meeting sent to Unit Owners on July 6, 1984. Mr. Conforti introduced the other speakers: 
Elizabeth McNichols and Michael Dunning of the law firm of Terry, Dunning & Terry, Mashpee, Massachusetts and Stephen Thurtle, Assistant Vice-President of The Hallwood Group Incorporated, Beverly Hills, California. 

3. Ms. McNichols stated that the presence of 25% of the beneficial interest in the Trust in person or by proxy would be needed to establish the quorum required to transact business. Owners of 116 intervals were present in person, representing 7.194 percent of the total voting power. The Hallwood Group Incorporated owned 241 intervals, representing 14.95 percent of the total beneficial interest, and held proxies given to Hallwood. for 14.51 percent of the voting power, in addition to other quorum was stated to be present. 

4. Mr. Thurtle gave the report from The Hallwood Group Incorporated.  He explained that Umet Properties acquired Atlantic Metropolitan Corporation, and the resulting entity is known as The Hallwood Group Incorporated.  He stated that sales activity was continuing and that although he felt that the sales force had "stepped on the toes" of some Unit Owners, efforts would be made to insure that sales activity would not interfere with the use and enjoyment of the premises by Owners. Mr. Thurtle went on to say that there have been feasibility studies made regarding the possibility of future development and that he personally would favor additional development. Mr. Thurtle thanked Mr. Conforti and his staff for their fine management job. 

5. Mr. Conforti then gave the report on the Association. He stated that the "next stage" of activities at Southcape Resort & Club was now beginning; remodeling of all 31 units was complete, and sales were nearly 90% complete. He stated that this is the stage where the Trust needs to establish standards for the future operation of the Resort.  Mr. Conforti went on to say that the "5-star" award which Southcape Resort & Club received from Interval International, was recently reviewed; Interval International sent surveys to all of their "exchanges" and on the basis of the high ratings from this survey Southcape was allowed to keep the 5-star award.  

Mr. Conforti then addressed the major problem of concern to all Interval Owners that being the quality of water at the Resort.  He explained that the water is tested by the Barnstable County Health Department, and read from a drinking water laboratory analysis issued by the Health Department in May, 1984. He stated that the water has always passed the laboratory analysis. The latest analysis showed an iron level of .45, and the notes at the  bottom of the analysis stated that the presence of iron in quantities of .3 or greater may "give the water a bitter-sweet astringent taste, cause an unpleasant odor, brownish color, and/or cause staining of laundry and porcelain. The analysis further stated that the levels of iron were not deleterious to the health. Mr. Conforti explained that the average iron content on Cape Cod is between .2 to .6, that the problem with the water has existed throughout the eleven years that he has been associated with the Resort, and that nearby New Seabury has experienced similar problems.  He stated that in an effort to improve the water situation, a second hydrastatic pump has been repaired and should be on line within the next few weeks. At the present time there is only one such pump on line. 

Mr. Conforti announced that weeks 21, 22, and 23 which were previously sold as fixed weeks had been converted to float weeks and were available for reservations. Reservations are being accepted in accordance with prior reservation procedures. 

6. Mr. Conforti then gave the report of the financial condition of the Southcape Resort & Club Condominium I Trust. He stated that the balance in the checking account as of July 30, 1984, was $5,121.65; the balance in the savings account as of that date was $95,620.85, for a total of $100,742.50.  Mr. Conforti stated that the delinquency in Unit Owner's maintenance fee charges was $39,480.00.  

Mr. Conforti announced that there were currently three trustees:  Mr. Thurtle, Allan J. Long from The Hallwood Group Incorporated, and himself. He suggested that the Resort was now at a stage where a greater input by Unit owners was desirable, and proposed the expansion of the Board of Trustees to five Trustees. The motion was made, seconded, and passed on a voice vote. 

8. Mr. Conforti stated that he had received resumes from several individuals who had expressed interest in serving as Trustees, and invited any other Owners who were present at the meeting to speak if they wished to be considered candidates for the positions. Mr. Conforti explained that he was not going to read the resumes that he had received and that those candidates who had submitted resumes should also feel free to speak. In response to questions from two Unit owners, Mr. Conforti explained that the resumes were obtained from people who had approached him expressing interest in serving on the Board of Trustees and further, that he had not given any written notice to Unit Owners that he was soliciting resumes for the Board of Trustees. Mr. Conforti reaffirmed that anyone present who was interested in serving was welcome to have their name added to the slate. In response to a question from an Owner regarding the fact that The Hallwood Group Incorporated would still control the votes by outnumbering the new Trustees three to two, Ms. McNichols explained that if representatives of The Hallwood Group Incorporated all voted together, they would control the votes. She explained that at this stage of the development, with Hallwood continuing to own 241 intervals and numerous acres of land surrounding the Resort, it was felt that the developer had a significant financial investment and needed to retain control to protect its interests. Ms. McNichols further stated that as soon as it was feasible, the entire control of the Trust would be with the individual Owners and that Hallwood has no desire to retain control for any longer than the period in which they have a significant financial interest in the inventory of the Resort. Mr. Thurtle reaffirmed that The Hallwood Group Incorporated has no interest in long term condominium management and would be turning over the control of the Trust as soon as possible.. 

A question was raised from the floor regarding the term of office of the various Trustees. Mr. Dunning explained that the Declaration of Trust, while it provided for the resignation or removal of Trustees, does not specify a term. After further discussion, John Budziak made a motion to limit the term of the Trustees to two years; the motion was seconded by Mr. Thurtle, and passed on a voice vote. The question was raised whether this term would apply only to the two new Trustees; Mr. Dunning and Mr. Thurtle affirmed that all five Trustees would be subject to the two year term. Mr. Conforti read the names of the candidates for the Board of Trustees from whom he had received resumes:  Mr. Bergh, Ms. Black, Mr. Bodkin, Mr. Finn, Mr. Nagy, and Mr. Price were not present. Mr. Culbert stepped up to the microphone and explained that he was an electrical and mechanical engineer, had experience with the management and maintenance of large industrial projects, and in response to questions replied that he lived in the Weston area and had never worked for Southcape. Mr. Lyons, who works for Raytheon and has experience in cash management, called for more activities for children at the Resort. Mr. Rutter, a Rhode Island resident, expressed concern about the rental of intervals. Mr. McMahon, also from Rhode Island, is a retired CPA, and was a senior partner in his accounting firm. Mr. Brown, a financial planner from Framingham, and Mr. Rottari, formerly in public relations and now a resident of Milton, also spoke. Ballots were distributed and those eligible to vote were instructed to vote for two people each. Mr. Thurtle waived his right to vote any proxies contained in mortgages given by unit owners present at the meeting. Mr. Culbert and Mr. Bottari were elected.   The Hallwood Group Incorporated abstained. 

9. The floor was opened for questions, answers, and comments. Among the matters brought up for discussion were the following: 

-What is the financial status of the Trust? 
A. There is currently a $54,000.00 deficit. How to deal with this deficit will be the first order of business of the new Board of Trustees. Letters have been sent to the owners who have not paid their maintenance fees in an effort to collect the $39,000.00 deficiency, and people seem to be responding.  To date, we have been dealing with the deficiency by Hallwood lending money to the Trust, without interest, to cover expenses. Mr. Thurtle agreed to send out statements of financial condition to owners. 

-Can owners who have not paid their maintenance fees use their intervals? 
A. No. 

-Does the fact that the Resort is currently operating at a loss take into account money designated as reserves? 
A. Yes 

-Are these funds escrowed in a separate account? 
A. Thus far. reserve funds have not been segregated from the rest of the maintenance fee. The sums are in a regular savings account but will be transferred to a separate account for capital reserves when practicable.

-The Hallwood Group Incorporated currently pays for most of the support of the community facilities. Will they continue to do so once all the remaining inventory is sold? 
A. Yes. Unless and until all the remaining land is developed or for at least ten years, Hallwood will have to subsidize the community facilities. 

-A gentlemen who owns time shares in other places states that an earlier statement to the effect that the Southcape maintenance fees were average or lower than average compared to other resort does not accord with his experience at other resorts. He states that Southcape maintenance charges are high in comparison with those he is aware of. 
A. Mr. Conforti clarifies that the study he referred to was limited to New England resorts where heating and air conditioning drive up maintenance costs. 

On future development and its effects on existing Unit Owners. 

-If future development takes place, would new owners become part of Trust? 
A. Most likely, separate condominiums will be set up, each with its own Trust or Association of Unit Owners. The documents creating the existing condominium, however, give the Developer the right to make this a "phased" project, in which case new units would be incorporated into the existing condominium and Owners would become part of the existing trust. 

-Will new recreational facilities be built to serve the new development?  
A. No plans to build additional recreation facilities, although this is a possibility. Existing recreation facilities would have to be expanded in proportion to future growth. 

-A gentleman points out that currently the sales force usurps a good portion of the clubhouse and recreational facilities, while the management is housed in a trailer farthest from the Units, and asks if this is likely to continue through additional development. 
A. No. Plans are in the works for offices for management and sales.

On other topics: 

-When taking occupancy for the week, an owner was finding that utensils, etc. are missing.       
A. Those in charge of changeovers will be instructed to take inventory more carefully in an effort to solve this problem. 

-What are the present sales prices for intervals? 
A. No one from sales is present. 

-Is the Master Deed still in force? 
A. Yes. 

-Why weren't Unit Owners notified of merger? 
A. The Hallwood Group Incorporated succeeded to all of the rights and responsibilities of Atlantic Metropolitan Corporation upon the merger. Merger was only consummated a relatively short time before meeting.  This meeting was the appropriate time to bring it up. 

-Is The Hallwood Group Incorporated a publicly owned company? 
A. Yes, traded on the New York Stock Exchange. 

Following the period of questions and answers, Mr. Bottari moved that the meeting be adjourned. The motion was seconded and carried. 

The meeting was adjourned at approximately 12:30 p.m.


----------



## JackB62

*Our own lawyer*

Sou 13, thanks again for organizing old minutes and condo info. This latest one almost came close to resolving our questions about new owners, Trust, etc.

Just as a note, in the meeting minutes above, item # 3 mentions Elizabeth McNichols. She wrote most of the original Master Deed and Trust for Southcape.

We however, cannot hire her to help us because she is currently working with NEVS. That does not bode well for us.

It does make us realize that we will need some legal help to fight the battle.


----------



## Fig

*Question for Eric*



Sou13 said:


> Now I'm wondering whether NEVS is entitled to vote on anything if there is a mortgage on their 500 units.



Speaking of mortgages, who makes the payments if NEVS did take out a mortgage on the 500 units? I think Sou, you said Cliff paid $1.5 mil for this. I assume he worked out a similar deal with Sandcastle....which would put him under water even more. I don't know if the inventory on IVS website for Sandcastle is going toward the mortgage...there is a ton there...but what if they don't sell? Then what? Eric, can Cliff pass his mortgage payments to the HOAs...oh knowlegable one in many things?


----------



## Sou13

*October 2005*

*Southcape Resort News​*
*October 2005*​
*Southcape Rentals Still Going Strong​*
*By: Christine Woods*

The summer of 2005 got off to a slow start for much of the Cape, as early June rains fell over the region. While many businesses felt the negative effect of this weather on their summer totals, Southcape's numbers remained right on track.

As we continue to bring in a steady stream of rental revenue, more improvements continue to be made to the resort. During this past year we fulfilled our promise of renovating Units 38-42, and we plan to repair the indoor pool this winter.

Also this year for the first time we will continue our Activities' Nights throughout the winter.  These include Wine and Cheese Night, Pie Night and Ice Cream Night.

*There are still discounted weeks available for sale! ! ! !​*> This is a great way to introduce someone to timeshare !​
*If interested, please contact our sales manager, Carol Scully at (508)-477-4700 ext. 204​*
*Important Announcements for the Upcoming Year​*
*Robert P. Woods*
Trustee

.:. Maintenance Fees

Due to the rising cost in the price of energy and the costs associated with delivering fuel onto the cape, we will be raising our maintenance fees for the first time in two years. Fees have increased by $35 for this upcoming year. This is an increase of 3.5% per year, and is in line with standard cost of living increases.

.:. Annual Meeting

Many owners attending last year's meeting requested that the date of the meeting be changed. Therefore this year's meeting will take place on May 20, 2006, the Saturday AFTER Mother's Day.

.:. Renovations

As promised last year, we were able to renovate Units 38-42. As monies continue to come in, we can
continue working towards our goals of renovating Units 43-49 during 2006.

.:. The Town

A few new stores opened this past season in the Mashpee Commons. New stores include Appleseeds,
Coldwater Creek and Picket Fences.
.:. Smoking Issue

We have heard from numerous owners about making the units smoke free. Because we are sensitive to the needs of both smokers and non-smokers we would like to hear feedback from our owners


----------



## Sou13

*October 2006*

*Southcape Resort News​*
*OCTOBER 2006​*
Dear Friends:

As the days grow noticeably shorter, it is time, once again, to review another year at SouthCape Resort. This past year has been a stressful time for our country, and with the increasing cost of fuel, many of our owners have opted to vacation at their own resort. It has been wonderful to see so many of you! It is the collective hope of our trustees and staff that you have found, at SouthCape, a peaceful oasis for your vacation. Many of you have expressed your delight in reconnecting with familiar staff members, and, indeed, I consider the stability and dedication of our longstanding staff to be Southcape's greatest
asset!

However, although much remains comfortably familiar at Southcape, 2006 has also been a year of exciting change. Many of you will have met our three new staff members by now: Kevin who has joined Evarist on our maintenance staff, Trish who manages the front office, and Cathy who has joined Beverly in presiding over our evening activities.  All bring a wealth of experience and enthusiasm to our efforts to maintain and improve your resort.

We have placed a strong emphasis on activities during this past year, continuing our evening activities throughout the off -season, and adding others to our summer schedule.  Many of you have expressed appreciation of these efforts. Patty's weekly cookouts have been a particular favorite! We are also currently working on creating a small library that our owners and guests may use for their vacation reading.

Eight units were renovated this spring, and it is our hope to renovate another eight early in 2007. We are also planning to attend to some exterior painting next spring. The indoor pool was painted in February, and roofs were replaced on two of the units. We had a particularly warm spell in August and several air conditioning units also had to be replaced. And finally, due to health considerations, we respectfully request that all units be smoke free. As always, we will be having our annual owners meeting in May. This year the meeting will take place on Saturday, May 19, 2007.

This has been my first year as resort manager, and it has been a fulfilling and thoroughly enjoyable experience. Many of you have stopped by to wish me well. I thank you all for your encouragement and support. It is the relationships that we have formed throughout the years that make my experience at SouthCape so pleasant and meaningful, and so much more than "a job." I wish you all a peaceful winter, and I look forward to seeing you in 2007.

Sincerely,

Rosaleen Cassidy
Resort Manager


----------



## ecwinch

Fig said:


> Speaking of mortgages, who makes the payments if NEVS did take out a mortgage on the 500 units? I think Sou, you said Cliff paid $1.5 mil for this. I assume he worked out a similar deal with Sandcastle....which would put him under water even more. I don't know if the inventory on IVS website for Sandcastle is going toward the mortgage...there is a ton there...but what if they don't sell? Then what? Eric, can Cliff pass his mortgage payments to the HOAs...oh knowlegable one in many things?



Continuing my unauthorized law practice that will forever keep me out of the state of MA, I do not think that Cliff can directly pass his mortgage payments to the HOA. He certainly can extract mgt fees from Southcape to keep him in the positive side of the ledger however.


----------



## e.bram

ewinch:
Why don't you buy(maybe others owners will buy or give you one)an SC TS and be one of their happy owners. Then you will be representing yourself which is not considered the unauthorized practice of law. (you can always represent yourself).
You also might be able to represent yourself if you are invited for a tour to see what you are getting into.


----------



## ecwinch

That would only be acceptable if someone donated a week that is about to be foreclosed on.

 I would love to represent myself in a foreclosure hearing and argue the point that the foreclosure is based on inaccurate m/f. That the m/f is inaccurate because the expenses are not properly allocated as per the declarations. I think that would be the least expensive way to assess the veracity of Cliff's position.


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## Sou13

*Southcape Condo II Master Deed*

The missing Master Deed for Southcape Condo II is recorded in Book 5937, Page 135, and the Timeshare Supplements thereto, dated May 7, 1986.  This can be found by searching public records at https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.PGM but because I do all my posting from a public computer I am unable to access this deed.  It isn't to my knowledge available for free anywhere online.

I've finally found my original deed!  I've been a Southcape interval owner since March, 1983!*

What I have posted is all that I've found of my meeting minutes so far, but it gives me and anyone reading the meeting minutes reason to wonder whatever became of the other Board members.  Why were they not replaced?  Where are the amendments that limit members to two-year terms?

There are other legal issues that need to be addressed.  I hope that more of this needed info will surface before the meeting next Saturday!


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> That would only be acceptable if someone donated a week that is about to be foreclosed on.
> 
> I would love to represent myself in a foreclosure hearing and argue the point that the foreclosure is based on inaccurate m/f. That the m/f is inaccurate because the expenses are not properly allocated as per the declarations. I think that would be the least expensive way to assess the veracity of Cliff's position.



OK Southscape owners, here is your offer. Someone give him a week in collections and get him involved in your complaint. 

Eric there was one for sale for $1 on e-bay. You could buy it and be an owner who could go to the meeting and discuss things. Heck if you are an owner Cliff will talk to you on this thread.:hysterical:


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## Sou13

*$2.5 million mortgage?*

I'm now looking at the deeds for New England Vacation Services and am finding that NEVS has a mortgage of $2.5 *million* With Colebrook Financial Services LLC!  


Pages in document: 82 
Grp: 1 
Type: Mortgage  Doc$: 2,500,000.00 
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtee) 


Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-176 
Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-181 

 Return addr:  DUNNING KIRRANE MCNICHOLS & GARNER LLP 
  REGISTRY BOX # 9 
  P. O. BOX 560 
  MASHPEE, MA 02649


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> I'm now looking at the deeds for New England Vacation Services and am finding that NEVS has a mortgage of $2.5 *million* With Colebrook Financial Services LLC!



Wow!  He is going to have sell those 500 units for a lot more now. I thought 1.5 was going to be hard.

Southcaper's it looks like your going to be getting granite countertops, expresso machines, PS3's, iPods, and big flat panel tvs in every room to support those prices.

Sou13 - what property is pledged against that mortgage?


----------



## Sou13

*Partial Discharge*

Bk-Pg:23537-176    Recorded: 03-18-2009 @ 10:05:13am  Inst #: 13836  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Partial Discharge 
Desc: UNIT 409 TIME 9 
Refers to Book: 23138-185 

Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  FESTIVA RESORTS 
  1 VANCE GAP ROAD 
  ASHEVILLE NC 28805 

Recording Fee: 50.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00 


Bk-Pg:23537-181    Recorded: 03-18-2009 @ 10:05:13am  Inst #: 13838  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Partial Discharge 
Desc: UNIT 403 TIME 9 
Refers to Book: 23138-185 

Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  FESTIVA RESORTS 
  1 VANCE GAP ROAD 
  ASHEVILLE NC 28805

Recording Fee: 50.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> I'm now looking at the deeds for New England Vacation Services and am finding that NEVS has a mortgage of $2.5 *million* With Colebrook Financial Services LLC!



Wow, looks like Cliff bought at the top of the market too. Little wonder he is trying to get Outfield Marketing to sell for him. He may have to sell 8 or more units a month at a couple of grand each just to make the mortgage payments. (And don't forget he also is strapped with Sandcastle...look at the inventory he is trying to unload http://www.ivsrealty.com/sainv.htm) 

Just thinking out loud here, but do you think the scheme to have Outfield Marketing sell Festiva points to paying owners came because selling units on-site to walk-ins just wasn't profitable enough to get Outfield Marketing involved, so to make it worth while for Mr. Thomas, Cliff opens up his whole database to Outfield Marketing and arms them with deeds so they can fly around the country and push Festiva points, which is much more profitable for Outfield/Festiva at a few grand a pop than a paltry commission on a $2000 resale? Voila, Cliff gets a sales force that can hopefully help him sell enough units to meet the mortgage payments, for no extra money, Outfield/Festiva get big bucks for selling points and the owners, well....they get a lot of telemarketing calls at dinner to set up visits to pay $3000 to convert to worthless Festiva points...oh, yes, and they get charged for new roofs on buildings that got them a few years back.


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> B
> 
> 
> 
> Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
> 
> Return addr:  FESTIVA RESORTS
> 1 VANCE GAP ROAD
> ASHEVILLE NC 28805



Hmm....so, maybe Festiva owns more of Southcape than Cliff is letting on?


----------



## tombo

We know that Festiva owns the weeks they talked owners into giving up so they could join the Festiva points club. I wonder if they own any of Cliff's weeks too.


----------



## e.bram

Cliff:
You should offer MinVacs with generous freebies to sell your NEVS units and Festiva  points. I would come and maybe ewinch too. Give you a chance to show your sales ability and make some money toward your mortgage.


----------



## Sou13

*Owners, not NEVS*



Fig said:


> Wow, looks like Cliff bought at the top of the market too. Little wonder he is trying to get Outfield Marketing to sell for him. He may have to sell 8 or more units a month at a couple of grand each just to make the mortgage payments. (And don't forget he also is strapped with Sandcastle...look at the inventory he is trying to unload http://www.ivsrealty.com/sainv.htm)
> 
> Just thinking out loud here, but do you think the scheme to have Outfield Marketing sell Festiva points to paying owners came because selling units on-site to walk-ins just wasn't profitable enough to get Outfield Marketing involved, so to make it worth while for Mr. Thomas, Cliff opens up his whole database to Outfield Marketing and arms them with deeds so they can fly around the country and push Festiva points, which is much more profitable for Outfield/Festiva at a few grand a pop than a paltry commission on a $2000 resale? Voila, Cliff gets a sales force that can hopefully help him sell enough units to meet the mortgage payments, for no extra money, Outfield/Festiva get big bucks for selling points and the owners, well....they get a lot of telemarketing calls at dinner to set up visits to pay $3000 to convert to worthless Festiva points...oh, yes, and they get charged for new roofs on buildings that got them a few years back.


According to my telephone conversation, that inventory is Sandcastle owners who have listed with IVS Realty.

What sent up the red flag for me was when Cliff Hagberg claimed that he doesn't even update that website and is going to let it run out.  All of the inventory is old and the special offers are, too.

There are a lot more owners want to sell Sandcastle weeks than there are listings for Southcape on IVS.


----------



## Sou13

*Intercity Escrow Services*

Bk-Pg:23174-211    Recorded: 09-25-2008 @ 9:34:43am  Inst #: 49843  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 91 
Grp: 1 
Type: Declaration Of Trust 
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT 

Town: COUNTY 

Gtor: INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: FESTIVA RESORTS ADVENTURE CLUB TRUST AGREEMENT (BY TR) (Gtor) 


 Return addr:  FESTIVA RESORTS ATTN CATHY BRADDOCK 
  ONE VANCE GAP ROAD 
  ENVELOPE 
  ASHEVILLE NC 28805 

Recording Fee: 200.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00


----------



## Sou13

*Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access*

Now that I've finally figured out how to make use of the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access I'm getting into the legal issues that Cliff Hagberg refuses to discuss here.  I'm hoping to have enough info by next Saturday to be able to ask some hard questions if given the chance to be heard at the meeting.

One of the things I'm learning is that when Barth & Woods were selling timeshares they were selling them for $2,000!

Bk-Pg:14907-346    Recorded: 03-08-2002 @ 3:35:15pm  Inst #: 21857  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 3 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 2,000.00 
Desc: UNIT 43 TIME 42 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: ROUTE 28 

Gtor: BARTH, VINCENT J (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: WOODS, ROBERT P (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: SOUTHCAPE TRUST (BY TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: BARTH, V J (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtee: CHEEK, FRANCES A (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  FRANCES A CHEEK 
  2900 OPTIMIST FARM ROAD 
  APEX NC 27502 

Recording Fee: 25.00 State excise: 11.40 Surcharge: 20.00 

From the meeting minutes that I was able to find and share I hope that owners who are planning to attend the meeting will email either rcassidy@southcaperesort.com or email NEVMSLLC at the address in his TUG profile and let the board know that you are planning to attend the meeting and wondering where to park.  Also express your hope that the owners will be able to hear and be heard (an amplification system may have to be rented for the occasion).

Since Cliff Hagberg either did not form an owners advisory group prior to the meeting, as he had told me he was hoping to do, or else he has decided not to include me in that group, it may be better if all Southcape owners who are following the discussion here get in touch with the resort prior to the meeting.


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> Return addr:  FESTIVA RESORTS ATTN CATHY BRADDOCK
> ONE VANCE GAP ROAD
> ENVELOPE
> ASHEVILLE NC 28805
> 
> Recording Fee: 200.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00



For the record, Cathy Braddock is a paralegal at Festiva http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/cathy/braddock. Cliff made reference to several attorneys reviewing the deal...Cathy is clearly not one of them, but maybe Festiva's legal dept is doing some of the work? Wonder who is looking out for the HOA on the legal side?


----------



## tombo

Fig said:


> For the record, Cathy Braddock is a paralegal at Festiva http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/cathy/braddock. Cliff made reference to several attorneys reviewing the deal...Cathy is clearly not one of them, but maybe Festiva's legal dept is doing some of the work? Wonder who is looking out for the HOA on the legal side?




HOA at Southscape equals Trustees. Trustees at Southscape equals Cliff, NEVS, Outfield Marketing, and Festiva. The legal dept is looking out for all of the above. 

The real question is if there is anyone looking out for the owners. Unfortunatelly I think the answer to that question is that no one is legally protecting the owners.


----------



## Russ45

Excuse me if this has been posted before, but could someone tell me what time the owner's meeting is at this Saturday.  Better yet, has an agenda been established?


----------



## Sou13

*Are you planning to attend?*



Russ45 said:


> Excuse me if this has been posted before, but could someone tell me what time the owner's meeting is at this Saturday.  Better yet, has an agenda been established?


"Change rarely occurs without an element of trepidation. Understandably, many of you have expressed a certain discomfort with regards to the ending of a 20-year relationship with Mr. Barth & Mr. Woods, and their replacement with new trustees. However, the transition has been a smooth one, and the new trustees are eager to meet all of you. The upcoming annual meeting, which will be held this year on May 16, at 12:00 noon, here at the resort, will provide an opportunity for you to meet the new trustees and to discuss the future of the resort with them. We hope to see you there. 

"Regards, 

"Rosaleen Cassidy 

"Resort Manager"


----------



## Sou13

*Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access*

I've been perusing the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access and finding some troubling deeds from owners who may have been foreclosed and had their weeks deeded back to Southcape Resort.  What troubles me is, who now owns those weeks?  According to public records, these weeks were deeded back to the "Southcape Resort & Club Community Association, Inc." prior to the sale of the "developer rights" to NEVS.  I started my search at 01012007 and found three entries, then went back to 01012006 and found 10!  What's been going on and who holds these weeks?  Is it possible to deed your week back to the Southcape Resort & Club Community Association, Inc. and have the proceeds from sale or rental of the week go to the Association, not to NEVS?

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
MORRISSETTE, PATRICIA UNIT 20 TIME 48
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
01-16-2008 22608-244     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtor)
SAMUELS, BRAD H (&W) UNIT 20 TIME 48
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
01-16-2008 22608-246     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
MANDEVILLE, PAUL (&O) UNIT 1 TIME 17
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
03-18-2008 22760-114     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB CONDOMINIUM I NOMINEE TRUST (BY TR) (Gtee)
BODAY, MICHAEL J (&O) UNIT 19 TIME 33
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
05-02-2008 22879-96 

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
MARTINEZ, MARIO (&O) UNIT 41 TIME 10
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-98

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
KELLY, WILLIAM S (&O) UNIT 41 TIME 46
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-100     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
DOUGHERTY, JOSEPH (&O) UNIT 45 TIME 12
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-102     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
BOWER, CHARLES H (&O) UNIT 49 TIME 23
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-104     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
COTE, HERBERT A (&W) UNIT 51 TIME 10
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-106     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
MURPHY, JOHN P (&O) UNIT 38 TIME 16
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-108     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
AMARAL, LEONEL C (&O) UNIT 2 TIME 52
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-110     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
BROOM, MARTIN L (&O) UNIT 4 TIME 6
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-112     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
DUFFY, JAMES (&O) UNIT 6 TIME 40
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-114     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
PASQUALE, MARK F UNIT 22 TIME 4
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-116     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
GARD, COLLEEN (AS AD) UNIT 41 TIME 43
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-120     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
FLYNN, ANN UNIT 24 TIME 41
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-123     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
HUDSON, MARY V UNIT 19 TIME 1
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-126     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
DIBONA, LEONARD F UNIT 17 TIME 4
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-129     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
SPILLANE, ELAYNE S UNIT 30 TIME 49
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-132     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
BUNCH, DAN (&O) UNIT 14 TIME 40
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-134     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
ROBERTS, ELIZABET (&O) UNIT 54 TIME 51
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-137     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
HAGGERTY, JUDITH D UNIT 53 TIME 6
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-139     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
CROSSLEY, JOHN W (&O) UNIT 51 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-141     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
KAMM, CHARLES UNIT 50 TIME 51
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-143     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
MUZZY, WILLIAM (&O) UNIT 38 TIME 11
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-145     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
SALVUCCI, LOUIS L (&O) UNIT 47 TIME 15
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-146     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
PAPPAS, MICHAEL L (&O) UNIT 49 TIME 4
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-148     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
KIMBALL, WILMA C (&O) UNIT 29 TIME 50
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-151     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (Gtee)
CABRAL, MANUEL T (&O) UNIT 49 TIME 45
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-153     

SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOC INC (Gtee)
ALLARD, DAVID C (&O) UNIT 23 TIME 16
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-04-2008 23137-117  

The power of attorney didn't officially pass from Barth & Woods until 09-04-2008.  From that time on the "Southcape Resort" entries contain legal documents that I am unable to access from a public computer.  Can anyone help me here?


----------



## Sou13

*TERMS AND CONDITIONS now posted*

For Southcape owners and anyone else being contacted by Outfield Marketing I have now posted the "Terms and Conditions" for membership in the Festiva Adventure Club at http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=719708&highlight=Terms+Conditions#post719708
The "Public Offering Statement" has been published at http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=687123&highlight=Public+Offering+Statement#post687123

Anyone who needs to download a copy of these documents can copy and paste it from these TUG posts.


----------



## Sou13

*capeguitarguy*

A TUG member who requested to be added to my Southcape Owners elist as of 3/24 has turned out to be Cliff Hagberg and his posts cannot be found on TUG.  Subsequently NEVMS began posting on 3/27.*  Now I know why my sixth sense told me not to trust Cliff Hagberg.  It looks as though Saturday's meeting will be interesting to put it understatedly.

If any Southcape owners have not been receiving email from me and have questions to be brought to the meeting, you can email Rebecca a proxy and post your questions here.


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> A TUG member who requested to be added to my Southcape Owners elist as of 3/24 has turned out to be Cliff Hagberg and his posts cannot be found on TUG.  Subsequently NEVMS began posting on 3/27.*  Now I know why my sixth sense told me not to trust Cliff Hagberg.  It looks as though Saturday's meeting will be interesting to put it understatedly.
> 
> If any Southcape owners have not been receiving email from me and have questions to be brought to the meeting, you can email Rebecca a proxy and post your questions here.



I look forward to hearing about your meeting, but this is not Cliff's first rodeo. I am sure he will deflect, dodge, and ignore questions with relative ease. You will probably not be recognized from the podium but once, and the meeting will end with many hands in the air. 

Good luck and get every name,e-mail address, regular address,and phone number of every owner you can at the meeting. If you ever need to hire legal counsel the more owners you can split the retainer between the better. I know this from personal experience. I started an owner's group that sued our timeshare's HOA to stop them from rebuilding after Katrina. The majority of owners didn't want to rebuild but the board said that they had the power to rebuild without taking a vote because the by laws authorized them to rebuild. They wouldn't give us a list of owners and they shut down the resort's web page so that we couldn't communicate to each other and get new plaintiffs. It was a long hard fight and I hope to never do it again. I spent days, nights, and weekends working on the game plan, writing e-mails to our plaintiff group, and trying to get the rebuilding stopped. We finally prevailed but it cost me a lot of money, time, and energy. I will contribute money to fight Festiva's activities at my resort, but I will not head the fight again. I have spent a year and a lot of money fighting an HOA in the recent past and I am willing to pay to help fight and give my torch and support to whoever decides to lead the fight against Festiva.

Sou, this is your fight. It will take money, time, and a lot of effort. You will get sick of it, but someone has to do it or they win. They get paid salaries to fight you, you have to pay with your personal funds to fight them. Their lawyers are paid with your MF's to fight you while you pay with your money to hire a lawyer to fight them. It is not right that you have to fight so hard, but if you don't fight they win. The crooked developers succeed because people complain and gripe, but the owners never want to spend the time or money needed to actually fight them. I had people e-mailing me all the time asking me how things were going, but when we went to court few bothered to show up even though our lawyer said the more plaintiffs that showed up the better it would look for the judge. I drove to the resort repeatedly at my own expense and missed many days of work. I paid for my own meals and rooms. I worked my tail off. In the end we won and instead of being assessed about $6000 per week I owned I received $2500 per week in insurance proceeds. This all happened because of the hard work of myself and another owner and thanks to the 30 owners who paid $500 per week owned to retain legal counsel. 

Sou, good luck to you. I can tell from your e-mails that working hard to fight them is not a problem. The annual meeting is the time to find owners willing to help you in your fight.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Sou, this is your fight. It will take money, time, and a lot of effort. You will get sick of it, but someone has to do it or they win. They get paid salaries to fight you, you have to pay with your personal funds to fight them. Their lawyers are paid with your MF's to fight you while you pay with your money to hire a lawyer to fight them. It is not right that you have to fight so hard, but if you don't fight they win. The crooked developers succeed because people complain and gripe, but the owners never want to spend the time or money needed to actually fight them. I had people e-mailing me all the time asking me how things were going, but when we went to court few bothered to show up even though our lawyer said the more plaintiffs that showed up the better it would look for the judge. I drove to the resort repeatedly at my own expense and missed many days of work. I paid for my own meals and rooms. I worked my tail off. In the end we won and instead of being assessed about $6000 per week I owned I received $2500 per week in insurance proceeds. This all happened because of the hard work of myself and another owner and thanks to the 30 owners who paid $500 per week owned to retain legal counsel.
> 
> Sou, good luck to you. I can tell from your e-mails that working hard to fight them is not a problem. The annual meeting is the time to find owners willing to help you in your fight.



Tombo,

Thanks for sharing that experience with us. No wonder you are so passionate about the issue. Kudos for carrying the torch. Hopefully your fellow owners bought you a couple of rounds after all was said and done.

In round numbers could you share with us what percentage of the insurance proceeds the law firm received after all was said and done? Or what the legal bill was?


----------



## Aussiedog

Sou13 said:


> Return addr:  FRANCES A CHEEK
> 2900 OPTIMIST FARM ROAD
> APEX NC 27502



Exactly 5 minutes from my house.

Ann


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Tombo,
> 
> Thanks for sharing that experience with us. No wonder you are so passionate about the issue. Kudos for carrying the torch. Hopefully your fellow owners bought you a couple of rounds after all was said and done.
> 
> In round numbers could you share with us what percentage of the insurance proceeds the law firm received after all was said and done? Or what the legal bill was?



Our total legal bill was about $30,000. The lawyer only got what we paid him because we were only suing to stop the board from rebuilding. One owner owned 10 weeks which accounted for $5000 in legal fees and another owner owned 8 weeks which was another $4000. The remaining $21,000 came from owners paying their $500 per week owned. We could have gotten more owners to join us if we had ever gotten access to the list of owners.

We really got screwed because we wanted our lawyer to get the insurance company to reimburse our legal fees and he never did it for us. When we got our share of the insurance money we each received the same amount of money that every other owner received. So thanks to the owners who invested $30,000 and time to fight the board, every owner received about $2500. Of course those of us that hired the lawyer received $2500 less our $500 in legal fees. The owners who did nothing received $2500 thanks to us. 

If we hadn't have fought the battle we would have been assessed about $6000 per week to rebuild. Someone had to organize the fight, a lot of people had to pay to fight, and all (including people who did nothing) benefitted from our battle.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Our total legal bill was about $30,000. The lawyer only got what we paid him because we were only suing to stop the board from rebuilding. One owner owned 10 weeks which accounted for $5000 in legal fees and another owner owned 8 weeks which was another $4000. The remaining $21,000 came from owners paying their $500 per week owned. We could have gotten more owners to join us if we had ever gotten access to the list of owners.
> 
> We really got screwed because we wanted our lawyer to get the insurance company to reimburse our legal fees and he never did it for us. When we got our share of the insurance money we each received the same amount of money that every other owner received. So thanks to the owners who invested $30,000 and time to fight the board, every owner received about $2500. Of course those of us that hired the lawyer received $2500 less our $500 in legal fees. The owners who did nothing received $2500 thanks to us.
> 
> If we hadn't have fought the battle we would have been assessed about $6000 per week to rebuild. Someone had to organize the fight, a lot of people had to pay to fight, and all (including people who did nothing) benefitted from our battle.



Did it go to court or was it a settlement?


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Did it go to court or was it a settlement?



It went to court. The first time in court the judge stopped them from spending anymore of the insurance money and froze the timeshare's assets. Then the lawyers got together. The board's lawyer agreed with our lawyer that they couldn't rebuild after depositions, etc, etc, etc. Our lawyer signed a summary judgement without informing the plaintiffs which from what I understand stopped any further action by us. After the Summary Judgement we were not allowed to fight for money we felt was misspent or to get reimburesed our legal fees. This is the first and hopefully last law suit I will ever have to be involved in.

 I feel like their lawyer screwed us, and I feel like our lawyer screwed us too. But in the end rather than paying $12000 in assessments for my 2 weeks to rebuild our timeshare (which as we all know would actually be worth about $1000 a week or less after rebuilding), I received about $5000 in insurance proceeds. That is one heck of a swing. Pay $12,000 or cash a check for $5000.


----------



## Carolinian

As to foreclosed weeks, these should go to the HOA, not the developer.  It was the HOA's lien for m/f's that was foreclosed.  Normally they would appear at the sale and bid in that amount plus foreclosure costs.  If the developer wanted the week, he should then bid more but the HOA would not care at that point as it got its bill fully paid.

Now I have seen a number of strange goings on with some t/s m/f foreclosures, and given the flagrant conflict of interest between the developer and HOA, I would look into this very, very closely.  Pull the whole foreclosure files at the courthouse and look at all the details, not just the deeds that are online.  I have seen some lawyers handling t/s foreclosures pull some stunts they could get nailed for.


----------



## Sou13

*And I fell for it!*



Sou13 said:


> A TUG member who requested to be added to my Southcape Owners elist as of 3/24 has turned out to be Cliff Hagberg and his posts cannot be found on TUG.  Subsequently NEVMS began posting on 3/27.*  Now I know why my sixth sense told me not to trust Cliff Hagberg.  It looks as though Saturday's meeting will be interesting to put it understatedly.
> 
> If any Southcape owners have not been receiving email from me and have questions to be brought to the meeting, you can email Rebecca a proxy and post your questions here.



I have no one to blame but myself for falling for this one.  I was so pumped up over the request to be on my elist that I didn't check the guy out and promptly added him.

Now he can't be found, but the message I received was from TUG:

_This is a message from capeguitarguy at Timeshare Users Group Online Community Forums ( http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index.php ). The Timeshare Users Group Online Community Forums owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email capeguitarguy, you can use this online form:
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=35211

OR, by email:
mailto:capeguitarguy@gmail.com

This is the message:

Hi

Been following the posts about Southcape.  I own a float week and wondering about assessment.  Can you add me to your mailing list?  Thanks_

Is it possible to unsubscribe from TUG?  Why can't I find this guy?

I guess I didn't make myself clear about why this is a problem.  I'm surprised that tombo didn't catch on.  Yesterday there was a message in my Inbox from "Cliff hagberg" <capeguitarguy@gmail.com>!  Either Cliff Hagberg or someone with a wry sense of humor was out to push my buttons!  Whoever "capeguitarguy" really is, he informed me that he'll be at the meeting.  Will he be strumming a guitar?


----------



## BM243923

Well how did the owners meeting go yesterday.  Even though I did not purchase a unit a Southcape, it has been interesting reading.


----------



## Sou13

*A quick update on the annual Southcape owners' meeting*

This is the first installment on what happened at Southcape Resort on Saturday, May 16th from an UNHAPPY owner:

I arrived at the resort before 11 a.m. armed with my big 3-ring binder and lots of good intentions.  I wasn't the first TUG Southcape owner to arrive but was the first to sign in.

Upon arrival I checked in at the check-in desk and found coffee and muffins ready and waiting for us.  I put faces to names at the front desk and now know who "Cathy" and "Patty" are.  I asked about those comment cards upon which the trustees supposedly based their demands for a special assessment and learned that those are done through the exchange program, not the resort.

I then went to the patio area outside the indoor tennis courts to find Al and Betty and nancyt, who hadn't yet signed in and found the coffee and muffins.  These were the first TUG Southcape owners to arrive.  We met and exchanged some documents with owners who soon began joining us at the new outdoor tables.

We soon ran out of documents to pass out and I hope I got to meet everyone who has been posting to this discussion but I didn't get to introduce them to one another as more and more owners arrived.  I met Jane but lost track of her.  Rebecca arrived with her parents and then I met Russ45 and those were all the TUG Southcape owners I was expecting to meet.

By the time we were seated inside we had situated ourselves apart rather than together around the seating area.  (This was unplanned, it just happened that way.)  Rebecca and her parents were right in front of the management table and I was in the second row on the right end.  Russ45 was in the third row on the left side and Al and Betty were in the fourth row.  I don't recall where Jane was sitting, and nancyt was in either the fifth of sixth row on the left.  I tried to count how many unhappy owners had turned out for the meeting and believe there were more than 200.

Someone reported a rumor that capeguitarguy had tried calling in sick or didn't want to show his face to me(?) or to us(?)  It was the other two "trustees" who made excuses for not being there.

We all were given an agenda and financial reports which I will scan tomorrow.  It wasn't long before an adjustment had to be made to the agenda so that the questions and answers to matters not on the agenda could be officially included as part of the meeting.  We found that Cliff Hagberg was willing to make the adjustment and the adjournment became a 20-minute recess instead.  We had bottled cold drinks on ice to sustain us but by the time we broke for recess the drinks were warm but the meeting continued until nearly 4 p.m.

I lived up to my confession that I'm not good at organizing, and must now apologize especially to Jane but also to nancyt who wasn't around when we finally adjourned.  I, too, must sign off now but will return tomorrow, hoping than one of the other Southcape owners will have added to this report by then.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 - thanks for the update. Come back and post soon.


----------



## ecwinch

Dying here. Apparently you are the only one that went Sou13, except Cliff. And I think we will have a Republican President before we see Cliff again. With a meaningful post that is. We know he still visits the board.


----------



## molzahn

Hi folks,

I attended the meeting (in the front row, Soul13) and stayed for the entire meeting.  I counted roughly 120-130 people present (18 seats per row, 7 rows plus extra seats in the back).  I was pleased that we were sitting on our patio chairs rather than rented chairs.

I was more optimistic after leaving the meeting than I had been when I arrived.  We all benefited from the concerns and questions raised by many who brought a lot of expertise- business people, economists, real estate lawyers, etc., as well as several longterm owners, who spoke of their experiences as Southcape owners for the past 20-25 plus years.  The experience and comments of those who had attended past annual meetings was also beneficial.

Cliff Hagberg led the meeting, which quickly became a Q & A format.  He hung in even with the difficult questions.  He seemed to offer balanced answers.  The complete agenda was addressed as well. 

I left feeling more optimistic that things will improve under the new ownership... so long as we owners continue to remain involved.

I, too, look forward to other attendees' reactions.

Jane


----------



## Carolinian

The relationship with Festiva / Outfield, however remains a dagger pointed at the heart of your timeshare.  You need to achieve homeowner control and the more weeks they scam people out of the more control they have.


----------



## Russ45

I was only able to stay for 2 hours, but there was a lot of Q&A during the meeting during the agenda, some of it really not necessary either, but it's to be expected.  I have attended a few town coucil meetings as part of what I do and I can tell you that it's pretty similar.  A few people who have kept up on the information and know what they're talking about, people there to just listen, and a few people that ask uninformed questions.  I thought the presentation was overall OK, a lot of questions were answered informatively.  One area which was a complete circular argument was the election/appointment of board members.  "Why aren't there trustee elections?"  The Association lawyers are looking at conflicting documents and I can't comment, but you can't be in touch with the lawyers either.

So at this point there appears to be no owner recourse for trustee actions and no accountability. There is not even a concrete answer on when board elections, or what circumstances board elections may happen.


----------



## Sou13

*Give us a break, Eric!*



ecwinch said:


> Dying here. Apparently you are the only one that went Sou13, except Cliff. And I think we will have a Republican President before we see Cliff again. With a meaningful post that is. We know he still visits the board.



Give us a break, Eric!  It was a long meeting and I had to come on earlier than usual today to try to catch up with emails such as this one:

_Ele,

Nice meeting you on Saturday.  So how did the rest of the meeting go?  Any discussion on the election of a board?

Russ_

There were owners who had come across our discussion but hadn't signed on to be able to post, and from my above you were supposed to connect the dots:

_By the time we were seated inside we had situated ourselves apart rather than together around the seating area. (This was unplanned, it just happened that way.) Rebecca and her parents were right in front of the management table and I was in the second row on the right end. Russ45 was in the third row on the left side and Al and Betty were in the fourth row. I don't recall where Jane was sitting, and nancyt was in either the fifth of sixth row on the left. I tried to count how many unhappy owners had turned out for the meeting and believe there were more than 200._

I don't know to this day whether "capeguitarguy" is really "Cliff Hagberg" but chose not to make an issue of it then and there.  I feel it's better addressed here and put more effort into attracting new viewers to the discussion, where we can continue to air our grievances and concerns.  I just hope I won't be the only one who has the time and energy to do it!

From now on I'll be referring to "Cliff Hagberg" as "capeguitarguy" and the explanation for this is given above.  But where is tombo in all this?  I want to hear from tombo!


----------



## Sou13

*Agenda*

This isn't a copy and paste, I'm doing this manually in the hope of helping others recall and fill in where my recollection is fuzzy.  If you're new to TUG please help me so we'll get different perspectives.  Here, then, is the
AGENDA​
Welcome - Cliff Hagberg, NEVMS _(12:08 p.m.)_
Approval of Minutes from last year's meeting
Financial Report - Rosasleen Cassidy - GM
Management Report - Cliff Hagberg

What we found when we took over management
Delinquent owners
Computer system
Wireless internet
Web site
New resort affiliations
Maintenance update
Exterior Renovations
Interior Renovations
Septic update 
Parking lot
Owner Rentals
Owner's Advisory Committee
Annual Meeting date
Questions and Answers on agenda
Adjournement _(Changed to "Recess" by request of owners) (1:50-2:10)_
Owner question and answer session


----------



## w.bob

Sou13,

Thank you for attending the meeting & trying to keep us updated as to what occurred. I was hoping to attend but because of my line of work I can never really make definite plans. 

Is there any one thing that still bothered you after attending the meeting and getting answers to questions from the current board. I know one of the concerns here is the election of owners to the board. What about the special assessment levied to owners this year going towards work that may have been already done?

Again thank you for keeping me informed. That goes to all of you who attended and are posting here.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Give us a break, Eric!  It was a long meeting and I had to come on earlier than usual today to try to catch up with emails such as this one:



Just eager for some news. No offense intended.


----------



## Sou13

*You betcha!*



w.bob said:


> Sou13,
> 
> Is there any one thing that still bothered you after attending the meeting and getting answers to questions from the current board.


Yes, and I hope to address all of them ASAP!

Meanwhile, look for more posts from owners who attended and I hope to return before 4 p.m.  I posted a reply to ChrisH at http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...-ri-ma-vt-nh-me/78809-southcape-resort-2.html but the Timeshare Forums posts have to be approved by a moderator and mine has yet to be approved.


----------



## Sou13

*Thanks and special thanks*

I want to thank the Southcape TUGgers who made a point of arriving early enough to be able to meet me outside the tennis courts, and a special thank you to nancyt who lives more than six hours away and had to stay overnight along the way, which is why she couldn't stay until the end.

I also want to thank all the Southcape owners who turned out for the meeting this year, whether it was 200 or 120!  If Jane's count is accurate, I need a refresher course in math!  And yes, the Jane in the front row is the Jane whose face I couldn't recall from meeting outside.

The reason I couldn't put a face on Jane until now was that when I met her outside the tennis courts we weren't together as a group and I was passing out the agenda documents.  Owners were arriving from all directions and by the time I met Russ45 it was time to move inside.

Before getting to the agenda, I want to continue with my first-hand account of my first annual meeting experience.  I approached with trepidation because I didn't know what to make of that email from capeguitarguy.  He never found me outside where he knew we were supposed to be meeting and when I saw a guy sitting at the trustees' table I wasn't sure whether he was "capeguitarguy" until he got up and addressed us.  He may have spotted me from inside but that was my first opportunity to adjust my mental image of him.  I was looking for a tall guy in a cowboy hat and boots and had to re-image him as a middle-aged businessman in a brown sports jacket!

My impression of capeguitarguy as our manager was that he does let us express our opinions and can make adjustments such as changing the "adjournment" to a "recess" but that because he owns only 25% of NEVS and the other 75% is owned by Outfield Marketing, he doesn't have a controlling interest in our resort!

There were some complaints about the "confrontational" atmosphere but overall it was kept orderly and even civil.  He (capeguitarguy) tried to recognize everyone who requested to speak and I got to speak about four times.  He even sat down and let me read from the 1990 Southcape Rumor Mill.  When he needed a break he didn't recess until the owners actually requested that we let him take a break and come back.  At that time he suggested that we take advantage of the recess to walk around and view the improvements which in fact are taking place (those tables outside the tennis courts are great and new to me).

I'm still trying to find out whether all the Southcape TUGgers got to meet one another.  I know that this discussion has been getting a lot of views and that there are owners who have found us and I hope will join us.  Until we can access the owners' list (which Outfield Marketing has) this is a first step in joining forces against a Festiva takeover.  We have Rebecca willing to fight for her own and her parents' interest and there's another real estate attorney who has requested to serve on the proposed advisory council (I'll address that when I get to the agenda).

I hope that capeguitarguy will revisit this discussion because if he's sincere and not pulling a fast one on us he may have a lot more to lose than we do.  I'm going to take a break now and once again hope that others will post their impressions of the meeting and our intrepid trustee/manager capeguitarguy.


----------



## Sou13

*Still not ready to get to the agenda*

Still not ready to get to the agenda, I’m still reflecting on the afternoon’s events.  I’ve been in contact with the other Southcape TUGgers for their recollections where mine aren’t clear because while I may be able to post the answers they may not have been given until after the recess.

At the opening of the meeting a woman in the front row stood up and complained that we need to complain to the AG about what’s happening at Southcape Resort.  The owners and trustee suggested that she wait until later and that we first go through the agenda.  At some point later on, perhaps during the recess, she began circulating a tablet for us to sign her petition for an investigation.  I didn’t sign it until she brought it to me, and she asked for my email address as well.  If my memory serves me correctly, I also gave her the TUG forums website address.  But I didn’t get her name and address, even after we met again later on and she told me how close she’d come to signing her deed over to the Festiva Adventure Club Trust!

At some point another tablet got passed around, along with a pen.  The woman sitting next to me told me that it was for us to give our email addresses.  From that point on it included my pink post-it notes pad of info about how to find this discussion on TUG.  When nancyt brought the addresses to me and asked whether I could copy them online I referred her to Betty and then she walked around the room but didn’t give them to her.  Meanwhile I didn’t get all those post-it notes given out and was disappointed in myself for not making them more self-explanatory.

When I heard from nancyt she had copied the email addresses herself and sent them to me.  I have yet to contact these owners with an explanation for why I’m contacting them and how I got their email addresses, which is another reason I’ve not yet addressed the agenda.  I wasn’t the only Southcape TUGger there, y’know!

There are owners who have been reading this discussion and there are owners who might be reading and posting after finding out about us.  We’re even a trackback on the other timeshare forums website!  So keep on posting and I’ll keep on looking for owners to add to the discussion.  I found another one today, and she might even be a local call for me this summer!

Meanwhile, you might try contacting the other Southcape TUGgers for their perspectives.  That’s what I’ve been doing!


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> My impression of capeguitarguy as our manager was that he does let us express our opinions and can make adjustments such as changing the "adjournment" to a "recess" but that because he owns only 25% of NEVS and the other 75% is owned by Outfield Marketing, he doesn't have a controlling interest in our resort!
> QUOTE]
> 
> That kinda contradicts how Cliff has presented himself on this board. He seems to want to make you think he controls everything. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.
> 
> Before you accept the above at face value, you might want to get some financial documents to back that up. Though Cliff, the head of Outfield and Festiva seemed all at one time to serve key positions for ARDA and it might be how this how cabal got going, it's kinda hard to believe Outfield ponied up most of the $2.5 million for the deal. Festiva has much deeper pockets and all the legal documents appear to be going to their headquarters. But Festiva has been getting a boat load of legal hassles with no less than two AGs, so they might want to stay in the background even if they are the prime investor. On top of that, they might like to make you think Outfield is a "third party" even if they are in Festiva's back pocket in case Festiva is sued, once again, for claims Outfield makes about Festiva points. On the other hand, Outfield does have the most to gain by charging people 3 grand to give up their deeds...a practice that should make them "Outlaw Marketing"...I do hope some AG can look at this absurd practice. Hopefully, between the down economy and people Googling Festiva Resorts and Outfield Marketing and hearing about the these "secret" home meetings where they try to get you to pay to give up your deed, they aren't making much headway on the points conversion front. I find it hard to believe this will be a good year for Festiva, Outfield or NEVS financially. The only source of revenue seems to be hiking managment fees or robbing owners of deeds for thousands of dollars. Oh, yes, and selling units..well, that's kinda dried up too. Time will tell. Keep the info flowing.


----------



## Sou13

*An invitation*

I'll be staying in Unit 8 at Southcape Resort over the Memorial Day weekend.  I want to extend an invitation to anyone interested in finding out why I'm so hung up on the place to give me a ring at (508) 477-4700 x 108 Sunday or Monday and come pay us a visit!  I'll be enjoying my 4/3 split, which is why you'll have to come Sunday or Monday.  (Check-out is Tuesday a.m.)  I can't provide much more than a place to sit, so bring your own beach towels (the outdoor pool is supposed to be open, too!) and a picnic lunch if you're interested in coming.

I won't be posting much here over the weekend so please keep this discussion going.  Take another look at what Fig posted above and what capeguitarguy's been posting to the Sandcastle discussion.  And give me a ring even if you can't pay us a visit!


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, Fig!*



Fig said:


> Sou13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My impression of capeguitarguy as our manager was that he does let us express our opinions and can make adjustments such as changing the "adjournment" to a "recess" but that because he owns only 25% of NEVS and the other 75% is owned by Outfield Marketing, he doesn't have a controlling interest in our resort!
> QUOTE]
> 
> That kinda contradicts how Cliff has presented himself on this board. He seems to want to make you think he controls everything. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.
> 
> Before you accept the above at face value, you might want to get some financial documents to back that up. Though Cliff, the head of Outfield and Festiva seemed all at one time to serve key positions for ARDA and it might be how this how cabal got going, it's kinda hard to believe Outfield ponied up most of the $2.5 million for the deal. Festiva has much deeper pockets and all the legal documents appear to be going to their headquarters. But Festiva has been getting a boat load of legal hassles with no less than two AGs, so they might want to stay in the background even if they are the prime investor. On top of that, they might like to make you think Outfield is a "third party" even if they are in Festiva's back pocket in case Festiva is sued, once again, for claims Outfield makes about Festiva points. On the other hand, Outfield does have the most to gain by charging people 3 grand to give up their deeds...a practice that should make them "Outlaw Marketing"...I do hope some AG can look at this absurd practice. Hopefully, between the down economy and people Googling Festiva Resorts and Outfield Marketing and hearing about the these "secret" home meetings where they try to get you to pay to give up your deed, they aren't making much headway on the points conversion front. I find it hard to believe this will be a good year for Festiva, Outfield or NEVS financially. The only source of revenue seems to be hiking managment fees or robbing owners of deeds for thousands of dollars. Oh, yes, and selling units..well, that's kinda dried up too. Time will tell. Keep the info flowing.
> 
> 
> 
> This is worth repeating.  Thanks, Fig!
Click to expand...


----------



## Sou13

*How the sly fox got into the henhouse*

This was posted on March 24, 2009:



Sou13 said:


> Sandy, it might be possible to get the subject title corrected by contacting a TUG moderator.  Presently it's unclear that this is for *Southcape* owners.  I contacted a moderator before posting the "Festiva Adventure Club" discussion and subsequently the discussion got "moved" and renamed "Festiva takes over resort" which helped Southcape owners looking for info here.
> 
> We need to get together someway somehow, even if it's here for starters.  We need to have a meeting of the minds in order to plan a strategy for the annual meeting.
> 
> If you haven't paid your $400 you might want to try contacting rcassidy@southcaperesort.com for info.  I hope that by now Cliff Hagberg is too busy spending the money to have time to answer email!
> 
> There is also supposed to be a trustees meeting before the end of March.  It may have already taken place.  Russ45 was successful in getting a copy of the meeting minutes which he posted in the "Southcape Resort" discussion.  We need to get more vocal about requesting minutes and adherence to the terms spelled out in the Bylaws and Massachusetts General Law.
> 
> I'm continuing to search for Southcape owners and am still versing myself in the Master Deed.  I appreciate your support.
> 
> If you prefer keeping the plans from the trustees you can email me privately and I can forward them to the rest of my "Southcape" egroup.



That very day I had an email request via TUG to add "capeguitarguy" to my elist, which I promptly did.  From that point on "capeguitarguy" was receiving every message I put out or forwarded to my "Southcape" egroup.

On March 26th I emailed this message to everyone on that list, including "capeguitarguy":

_Dear Southcape owners,

Russ and I need your help.  At least two if not a dozen or more letters need to get into the mail to the Board of Trustees in time for the next board meeting if at all possible.  Russ has already done a bangup job getting vital info which he has posted in the "Southcape Resort" discussion.  As the deadline for the first installment of the "Special Assessment" is nearly upon us, here are some of my thoughts for you to put into your own words, add your own, and fire off to the Board:

*It has come to my/our attention that the composition and actions of the Board of Trustees are in violation of the Bylaws of the Community Association, Inc.

Therefore, the Special Assessment levied on Unit Owners cannot legally be collected and spent until the required percentage of owners have assented to this assessment.

To date there has been no written notification of owners as required in the Bylaws.  Reasons for the assessment and penalties for not contributing on time do not constitute the written notification required in the Bylaws.

Furthermore, the Board of Trustees has not been duly elected by the Unit Owners and the members of the Board constitute a conflict of interest with the rights of the Unit Owners.

I therefore am hereby giving written notice of my objection to the Special Assessment and all capital improvements over $10,000 which have been undertaken by the Board.*

You can send your thoughts by "snail mail" and send a copy by email for greater effect.  Address them to the Board of Directors, Community Association, Inc. using the address on the assessment or the one on your  2009 maintenance fee assessment.

We will greatly appreciate hearing from as many of you as possible.  I will keep on publishing whatever can safely be published in order to reach out to the yet-unidentified members of the Community Associaion, Inc. while working on my own notice to the Board and possibly beyond.

Yours for a better owners' association,

Ele (Sou13)_

On March 27th I received this message from a Southcape TUGger who had copied and pasted the bold part above into an email to "Rosaleen Cassidy" <rcassidy@southcaperesort.com> with Cc to me, southcapeowners@gmail.com, and Rebecca Trail at her law firm's email address.

Here's the reply:

_Thank you.  We are in receipt of your email.


Clifford Hagberg
New England Vacation Management Services, LLC


On Mar 27, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Rosaleen Cassidy wrote:_

In a matter of hours we were assaulted with this:

_My name is Cliff Hagberg and I am a trustee at Southcape Resort. I 
am concerned about a number of untruths and misrepresentations that 
have appeared on this board and i am perfectly willing to address 
issues of concern for any owner at Southcape Resort. Please 
understand that I cannot discuss legal issues nor will I respond to 
any personal attacks. Having set those ground rules, I would 
very much appreciate an opportunity to try and answer those questions 
that any owner at Southcape might have. I look forward to a fruitful 
dialog_
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=693201#post693201 

It was clear to me that the intent of this entry into the discussion was to discredit and marginalize Sou13.  The assault continues at http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=725579#post725579 ( Sandcastle P'town owners - major news) where he posts this:



NEVMSLLC said:


> Ah, Eric my friend, how've you been?  If I had super powers and a secret identity, I wouldn't be so obvious as to tell people I'm from the Cape and have a guitar!  It would be something like Timeshareman!!
> 
> Sou13, you're just getting things all mixed up again.



and this:



NEVMSLLC said:


> By the way, what is this capeguitarguy thing all about?



I sought an explanation for how "capeguitarguy" can't be found on the users' list and got this from NEVMSLLC' friend MakaiGuy:

_People don't get listed in the User List until they post a message to the board.  There are almost 23,000 people that have registered but never posted, and here's no reason to junk up an already huge list with folks that may well never establish any presence on the board.  Most of them have never returned since their initial visit.

Capeguitarguy registered on the day he sent the first message via the bbs, Mar 24, and has not logged on since._

So there you have it, folks.  Now you know why I don't believe I can trust the sly "capeguitarguy" and why I believe he is not above using deceptive practices in dealing with deeded Southcape owners, especially long-time owners of the coveted Condo I deeds.  If you don't believe me, go to https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.HTM?WSIQTP and do a free public search for InterCity Escrow Services in the town or Mashpee.  You'll find that most of the owners who converted to Festiva points are in Condo I!

I've been reluctant to address the agenda posted for the annual meeting because although I was there, I wasn't taking notes.  I was filling out the pink post-it notepad.  Gotta go now.


----------



## w.bob

Sou13 said:


> I'll be staying in Unit 8 at Southcape Resort over the Memorial Day weekend.  I want to extend an invitation to anyone interested in finding out why I'm so hung up on the place to give me a ring at (508) 477-4700 x 108 Sunday or Monday and come pay us a visit!  I'll be enjoying my 4/3 split, which is why you'll have to come Sunday or Monday.  (Check-out is Tuesday a.m.)  I can't provide much more than a place to sit, so bring your own beach towels (the outdoor pool is supposed to be open, too!) and a picnic lunch if you're interested in coming.
> 
> I won't be posting much here over the weekend so please keep this discussion going.  Take another look at what Fig posted above and what capeguitarguy's been posting to the Sandcastle discussion.  And give me a ring even if you can't pay us a visit!




Ele (Sou13)

I hope your enjoying the holiday. I would have loved to visit but unfortunately it wa not possible. Actually I have not been to Southcape in a number of years. How is the place looking? Has our special assesment been put to good use? 

Wishing everyone a happy & healthy holiday. Also a special THANK YOU to all of our veterans and active service men & women as well as those who died protecting us.


----------



## Sou13

*A quick update from Southcape Resort*

My stay at Southcape is over and I'm checking in from the Mashpee Public Library where I may be able to stay on if there's nobody waiting for Internet access.

There's a new wrinkle at Southcape Resort.  Her name is JoAnn and she hangs out in the clubhouse waiting to pounce on owners to book them for "15 minute" appointments with "Frank" in "Owner Services" who she claims has been at Southcape for two years.  Pressed for more info she might let it slip that he's actually with Outfield Marketing.  She's been there for only two weeks and makes it look as though she's being kept very busy booking appointments.

When you call (508) 477-4700 you get a recording identifying the # as the "Owner Services" department at Southcape Resort.  I told JoAnn that I've been coming to Southcape for over 25 years and had never heard of an "Owner Services" Department!

Today "capeguitarguy" is at Sandcastle and I could still go back to meet this "Frank" if I want to give a first-hand report of what he has to say to me.

I was able to get my time extended for another 20 minutes and want to post as much as I can here.  We need to keep bumping this discussion to the top of the *U.S. -  Eastern* forums page so that anyone who takes one of those tear-off slips that I posted on the bulletin board can find us.  I was able to give out four of those post-it notes I had left over from the annual meeting, and got to talk to one owner (and her daughters) who has owned a float week even longer than I have.  She kept telling me I was mistaken when I told her that we have no representation on the board.  She used to go to the annual meetings when they were still being held on July 31st regardless of the day of the week (unless it fell on a Sunday) and that made it hard for the working owners.  She told me that we used to have an owners' association but couldn't say what had become of the association.  She has moved to FL and her daughter gets her Southcape mail which is why she didn't fully understand my concern.  They promised to catch up with us here.

When I left the resort the tear-off sheets were still on the bulletin board but how long they'll be there depends on who keeps an eye on the board.  It looks as though it's not meant for owners to post there even though there are plenty of push-pins provided.

I didn't get any calls from interested TUGgers with nothing better to do than come pay us a visit.  It was a beautiful Memorial Day and there was plenty of activity on the outdoor tennis courts, where the tennis pro was teaching his young students.  There's still enough interest in tennis to keep the "Club" part of Southcape Resort a source of revenue.

Keep posting!


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> There's a new wrinkle at Southcape Resort.  Her name is JoAnn and she hangs out in the clubhouse waiting to pounce on owners to book them for "15 minute" appointments with "Frank" in "Owner Services" who she claims has been at Southcape for two years.  Pressed for more info she might let it slip that he's actually with Outfield Marketing.
> Keep posting!



Hmmm...they used to be so proud of the Outlaw um, er Outfield Marketing brand...is it really so tarnished that they have to refer to themselves as "Owner Services?" Sounds like someone you call to handle your drycleaning or advise a dogwalking service. Strange.


----------



## Carolinian

Why don't you seek the advice and assistance of fellow timeshare owners at another Cape Cod resort which has been succesful in getting an owner controlled HOA in place and ousting developer management.  See www.edgewaterownersma.com


----------



## Fig

Carolinian said:


> Why don't you seek the advice and assistance of fellow timeshare owners at another Cape Cod resort which has been succesful in getting an owner controlled HOA in place and ousting developer management.  See www.edgewaterownersma.com



Wow, they have their act together. A pdf right on the website where they can fill in the blanks and send it off to AG. Maybe you should tailor one for Southcape with all violations in addition to not providing a list. http://www.edgewaterownersma.com/frequently_asked_questions/sample 93A.pdf


----------



## Fig

*Who exactly is Outfield Marketing?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi Sanford
> 
> 1. Why would it be inappropriate for a member of one of the top sales and marketing organizations in the country to be a board member of a resort that desperately needs sales and marketing?



When you Google "Outfield Marketing," the company Cliff is referencing, this is the address you get:

212 E Hickory St Denton, TX

Hmmm...does this look like the headquarters of 'one of the top sales and marketing organizations in the country"? Click on street view to take a tour.

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...vMsF&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1

Oh, wait, there is more! Mapquest has them at 135 Hickory...take your pick of ramshackled buildings along that street. The interesting thing is, they also list them as Festiva Resorts, LLC. http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Denton&state=TX&address=135 E Hickory St&cat=Festiva Resorts

Cliff tries to downplay the relationship between Festiva and Outfield, but I fail to see how a business run out of a run down shed on E Hickory in Texas could afford a $2.5 million dollar loan for Southcape and Sandcastle...unless of course Festiva holds the cards.


----------



## Fig

*Strange things happening inside of Outfield Marketing's headquarters*

Cliff appears to be a big fan of Google as he is always encouraging people to use it. Well, you can use it to get pictures of what goes on inside of buildings as well as out. When you Google Outfield Marketing, 212 east hickory street, denton, tx, you get a picture of a front of building with a plastic sign and some sort of device that looks, well, like a bong. 

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&c...3ewF&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1

Apparently it is a "hookah" lounge....before you go jumping to conclusions...here is a picture of what goes on inside. The address shows up in the article. http://media.www.ntdaily.com/media/...on.Lounges.Cater.To.Hookah.Fans-3400432.shtml

Now, I must say, this is a very unconventional pastime for one of the countries top sales and marketing organizations...aka Outfield Marketing. Or, maybe not....:hysterical:


----------



## Russ45

Fig said:


> Cliff appears to be a big fan of Google as he is always encouraging people to use it. Well, you can use it to get pictures of what goes on inside of buildings as well as out. When you Google Outfield Marketing, 212 east hickory street, denton, tx, you get a picture of a front of building with a plastic sign and some sort of device that looks, well, like a bong.
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&c...3ewF&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1
> 
> Apparently it is a "hookah" lounge....before you go jumping to conclusions...here is a picture of what goes on inside. The address shows up in the article. http://media.www.ntdaily.com/media/...on.Lounges.Cater.To.Hookah.Fans-3400432.shtml
> 
> Now, I must say, this is a very unconventional pastime for one of the countries top sales and marketing organizations...aka Outfield Marketing. Or, maybe not....:hysterical:


135 East hickory street is also home to a Festiva business. Not much space for two companies.  I wonder who the Festiva office employs there?


----------



## Fig

Russ45 said:


> Try 135 East hickory street.  You'll also see it's home to a Festiva business.



Yes, I had looked into that...it puts the business across the street. If you do a Google street view...you get two different buildings at that approximate address which look a little bigger than potting sheds. The hair solon up the street..."Griffin" looks more impressive. 

Looks like a fake headquarters to me...I can't believe anyone at Festiva or Outfield would call that headquarters. Unless they were trying to set up a TX address for some purpose other than establishing a real business.


----------



## Russ45

Fig said:


> Yes, I had looked into that...it puts the business across the street. If you do a Google street view...you get two different buildings at that approximate address which look a little bigger than potting sheds. The hair solon up the street..."Griffin" looks more impressive.
> 
> Looks like a fake headquarters to me...I can't believe anyone at Festiva or Outfield would call that headquarters. Unless they were trying to set up a TX address for some purpose other than establishing a real business.


I saw that after I posted.  Festiva's headquarters is in NC?  I think the TX office is a branch.


----------



## Fig

Russ45 said:


> I saw that after I posted.  Festiva's headquarters is in NC?  I think the TX office is a branch.



Yes, Festiva is in NC. The interesting thing is, they might have set up a Limited Liability Corporation at this address, which also shows as Outfield Marketing's address. Again, the legal relationship between Festiva and Outfield raises questions. 

The building appears to be the little white building as it appears the other is Denton County Law Enforcement Assoc at 139 E Hickory.

The little white building would not be big enough for most people's garage, never mind an office for "the country's leading sales and marketing' organization. Two of the Outfield Marketing people are your trustees...one of whom was making sales calls in MO before the AG slapped Festiva with a ruling against them there. 

With Trustees like these...well, you know the saying....


----------



## Russ45

Fig said:


> Yes, Festiva is in NC. The interesting thing is, they might have set up a Limited Liability Corporation at this address, which also shows as Outfield Marketing's address. Again, the legal relationship between Festiva and Outfield raises questions.
> 
> The building appears to be the little white building as it appears the other is Denton County Law Enforcement Assoc at 139 E Hickory.
> 
> The little white building would not be big enough for most people's garage, never mind an office for "the country's leading sales and marketing' organization. Two of the Outfield Marketing people are your trustees...one of whom was making sales calls in MO before the AG slapped Festiva with a ruling against them there.
> 
> With Trustees like these...well, you know the saying....


As well as received an FCC citation as part of Silverleaf.


----------



## Fig

Russ45 said:


> As well as received an FCC citation as part of Silverleaf.



Indeedy...Thomas C. Franks was President of Silverleaf when the FCC cited them. http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2002/EB-02-TC-256.pdf

Here is the info on Steve Lamatia where  a couple ran him out of their house for trying to sell them points...http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...tiva_Outfield_Marketing-Branson_Missouri.html
Shortly after this the AG in MO ruled against Festiva for its sales practices...and now Steve is your trustee!

So, these darned government people keep getting in the way of marketing these timeshare units...no telemarketing....no promises of the units worth. Who is left to contact legally but other owners thru "visits."

And Cliff, as holder of the list for Southcape, is most likely the person arming Outfield with deeds (how else do they show up at people's doors with deeds in hand trying to get owners to buy worthless Festiva points) a practice that really should be looked at by Martha Coakley the Mass AG. But refusing to give owners a look at the HOA list...that is a clear violation of Mass General Laws. 

And now all three of these gentlemen are your trustees and together they appear to have taken out a $2.5 million mortgage against Southcape (and Sandcastle) units just before the real estate market tanked and now they are trying to sell these units that don't even bring $1 on Ebay. How will they pay the mortgage?

It's like leveraged robbery...take out a $2.5 million dollar loan to buy some units that hopefully you can sell for more than the mortgage by flipping them. Whoa....economy hits the skids...maybe the flipping is flopping? In the meantime spruce up the property using not your money, but the owners money of units outside of the ones you own. Get appointed as Trustees so that you have absolute power and others can't question why your hundreds of units pay no mf toward the upkeep of the property.....what a deal! Invest nothing...have others pay (banks and owners)....and reap the rewards. Trouble is...something called a recession seems to have gotten in the way.


----------



## Sou13

*February 1984 Southcape letter found*

_Dear Owner:

1983 was an impressive year at your resort! !

Construction was completed on schedule for units six through thirty-one.   In addition, the outdoor pool and jaccuzzi were opened for use during the warm summer months.  The attractive landscaping around the units will beautify the resort year-round.   Additional changes occurred that are not quite as visible.   A new pump system was installed, while other repair and maintenance activities were undertaken to assure you a carefree vacation on the Cape.

You are one of nearly 1,600 owners of interval weeks here at the Resort.  And, as an owner, you have a lot to be proud of.   Due in large part to the employees here at the Resort, Southcape was awarded the prestigious Five Star Award by Interval International, our exchange organization. Only sixty resorts world wide received this coveted honor.

Many of you exchanged time at other resorts during 1983. Comments from those who visited at your resort were most favorable, and we have received many positive letters from those of you who stayed at other Interval International resorts.

To enhance your ability to exchange your week at the Cape for a week at another resort, we are developing a direct exchange program (subject to availability) with two excellent resorts: Plantation Beach Club located in Hutchinson Island, Florida and Pelican Resort Club located in St. Maarten, the Caribbean. 

In response to a number of requests, we have also started a rental program for those of you who wish to rent out your week at Southcape. We will be running periodic ads and working closely with local real estate agents to assist you.   For information about the new exchange or rental programs, contact the Resort office at (617) 477 -4700. In order to keep costs to all owners as low as possible, we can no longer accept collect calls.

To clear up some questions about the reservation procedures, we have highlighted some of the more important guidelines below:

Float week owners must reserve time regardless of what unit and week you were deeded.  Float week intervals are between weeks 1 to 20 (January 7, to May 26, 1984) and weeks 38 to 52 (September 22 to January 5, 1985).

Float Time Reservations for 1985 cannot be made until you have used or exchanged your full reservation allotment for 1984.  Float Time Reservations may be made up to 18 months in advance.

Float Time Reservations for 1985 cannot be made until you have used or exchanged your full reservation allotment for 1984.

Float week owners may reserve time:                                                                                                        
a.    as a seven day week from 3:00 p.m. Saturday to 10:00 a.m. the following Saturday;             
b.    as a three-day period from 3:00 p.m. Saturday to 10:00 a.m. Tuesday or;                       
c.    as a four-day period from 3:00 p.m. Tuesday to 10: a.m. Saturday.

Bonus days can only be reserved up to six days in advance.  Bonus days are based on unit availability.​
The 1984 maintenance and tax assessments ($200 and $10, respectively) total $210.  This represents a modest 4% increase over 1983's assessment.   We have made a concerted effort to hold costs to a minimum.   At the same time, we will maintain the high standards you have set here at the Resort.

We have attached a bill indicating your total charges for all weeks owned together with a self-addressed envelope. Please return the bill with your check made payable to "Southcape Resort & Club Condominium Unit I".   Out of fairness to all owners, we cannot honor reservations for time already reserved unless we receive payment in full by February 29, 1984.    Reservations for future time cannot be made until we have received payment.

If we can answer any questions, please do not hesitate to call us at (617) 477- 4700.
We are looking forward to seeing you again in 1984.

Sincerely,

Edward H. Conforti 

Resort Manager

EC/mt

Enclosure._

Some interesting facts to note here:

There were 1600 owners of interval weeks in February 1984.  When questioned at the annual meeting whether the projected MF for 2009 included the $50 reserve, "capeguitarguy" Cliff Hagberg answered that it does not.  This means that in 2009 there are only 1800+ MF-paying owners out of 55 codominium units with 51 weeks each which totals more than 2800 weeks!  So more than a quarter of a century later we have added only 200 MF-paying owners to the pool!  The burden of financing 1000 non MF-paying weeks falls on the backs of those of us who want to remain as deeded owners!


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, Fig and Russ!*

Those are revealing posts you've made on this page and I don't want to detract from them by posting the above.  I hope that viewers will skip back to your posts and get the ball rolling in Massachusetts!


----------



## Fig

*Oh, look at this Massachusetts General Law!*

CHAPTER 183B. REAL ESTATE TIME-SHARES 


Chapter 183B: Section 35. Discharge of manager 


Section 35. (a) During the period of time the developer appoints, controls or serves as the managing entity, the owners may discharge the manager with or without cause in the manner provided by this section in addition to any manner permitted by law or the project instrument. 

(b) Any owner may prepare a ballot affording the opportunity to indicate a preference between retaining the present manager and discharging him in favor of a new manager; provided, however, that the owners of at least one time-share or other estate or interest in each of a number of units to which at least ten per cent of the votes are allocated sign a petition authorizing said owner to prepare said ballot on their behalf. A copy of said ballot and of any letter to be mailed with said ballot shall be delivered to the manager. Said ballot and a copy of any said letter, together with a copy of any written reply received from the manager containing no more pages than said letter, shall be mailed not less than ten or more than thirty days from the date of delivery to said manager to each owner by the owner who prepared the ballot. 

-------------------------------------------

So, looks like you may be able to boot Cliff? Oh, Eric, am I reading this correctly? If he gave my deed to some college kid to set a home meeting and lie to me about Festiva Adventure Club and ask me for 3 grand....I certainly wouldn't want him running my resort.

Futhermore, if he was in cahoots with with two other guys who had been cited by the FCC and the AG in MO and they had a $2.5 million dollar loan on hundreds of the units at my property but were paying no management fees and then had the cahonahs to turn around and charge me a special assesment so that they could up their property values down the line when they tried to sell them making a profit on the hundreds of units at my expense, I'd want him no where near my property. 

But hey, it's your property...so do as you wish...just passing a little info along here.


----------



## ecwinch

Fig said:


> Oh, Eric, am I reading this correctly? If he gave my deed to some college kid to set a home meeting and lie to me about Festiva Adventure Club and ask me for 3 grand....I certainly wouldn't want him running my resort.



My read is the same as yours. Here is mine:

Then you need 10% of the timeshare owners to sign a petition putting the item to a member vote.

Then you need 66 2/3% of all time-share owners to vote in favor of discharging the manager, and those votes must total at least 33% of all votes allocated to all owners.

_
 If at least sixty-six and two-thirds per cent of all of the votes allocated to all time-share owners, which votes represent at least thirty-three and one-third per cent of the votes allocated to all owners, favor discharging the manager, the developer also shall be notified of said result,_

And you are entitled to recover your expenses if obtain more than 50% of the vote, but fail to attain the vote % required to discharge:

_The reasonable expenses incurred by any owner in obtaining offers and preparing and mailing ballots pursuant to this section, including reasonable attorney’s fees, shall be promptly collected by the managing entity from all owners as a common expense and paid to said owner if a simple majority of the vote calculated pursuant to subsection (c) favors the discharge of the manager. Similar expenses incurred by the developer also shall be so collected and promptly paid to the developer._

I do not see any prohibit to the managing entity being rehired.


----------



## Carolinian

It is just mindboggling that this Hagberg creature turns the membeship list over to Outfield Marketing, which is trying to scam owners but not to the members themselves.  The members have a legal right to the list but it is probably a violation of fiduciary responsibilities to turn it over to Outfield.


----------



## ecwinch

At this point I would reach out to Edgewater and see if you can follow the trail they blazed.


----------



## JackB62

*Owner's List*

Sou 13,

Did the current management refuse to give you the list of interval owners?

Thanks for all you've been doing!

Jack


----------



## Sou13

*I don't want to rain on your parade, but*



Fig said:


> When you Google "Outfield Marketing," the company Cliff is referencing, this is the address you get:
> 
> 212 E Hickory St Denton, TX
> 
> Hmmm...does this look like the headquarters of 'one of the top sales and marketing organizations in the country"? Click on street view to take a tour.
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...vMsF&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1
> 
> Oh, wait, there is more! Mapquest has them at 135 Hickory...take your pick of ramshackled buildings along that street. The interesting thing is, they also list them as Festiva Resorts, LLC. http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Denton&state=TX&address=135 E Hickory St&cat=Festiva Resorts
> 
> Cliff tries to downplay the relationship between Festiva and Outfield, but I fail to see how a business run out of a run down shed on E Hickory in Texas could afford a $2.5 million dollar loan for Southcape and Sandcastle...unless of course Festiva holds the cards.


I don't want to rain on your parade, Fig, but here's the Outfield Marketing address:

Outfield Marketing 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Outfield Marketing Ltd.

Thomas C Franks RRP 
President 


135 E Hickory Street 

Denton, TX 76201-4215 

Ph: (443) 994-4581 
Fx: (410) 295-5486
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=698986&highlight=Outfield+Marketing+Denton#post698986

See also:

_Outfield Marketing was hired by New England Vacation Services to contact owners of Southcape deeded weeks and present them with the "opportunity" to convert deeds to the "points" system within the Festiva Adventure Club.

I called the toll-free # (800-436-9094) and learned that the Texas-based office can be reached from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. Eastern time.

I wanted to know how NEVS had "acquired" ownership of Southcape Resort. The customer rep speculated(?) that they had to own more than 50% of the unsold inventory in order to have a controlling interest in the Resort!

Whoa! If this is true, how is it that more than 50% of the inventory remains unsold? Look at the inventory offered for sale by Hagberg's realty listing. Does that look like more than 50%?

There's got to be something illegal going on here. We're being handed a "special assessment" of $400 to pay for "upgrades" that have already taken place!

Furthermore, if we refuse to pay, we'll be unable to use our weeks and be turned over to Monterey Financial for collection!

Why didn't Mr. Barth and Mr. Woods ever resort to these tactics? Why didn't they put more effort into selling the inventory and divesting themselves of the controlling interest in the Resort?

The rep also provided me with the telephone # of NEVS, which is 508-477-3197.

Am I alone in my anguish and anger over this? SOS! SOS! SOS!_
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=672700&highlight=Outfield+Marketing#post672700


----------



## Carolinian

Can you find an owner who is a lawyer in that state?  If so, he can probably get him to force the issue on the lists.  The management may be liable for court costs and attorney fees if you have to go to court to get the list.

I also remember the former Treasurer of the HOA at Ocean Villias II telling me that when they kicked the developer management out at that resort the new owner controlled HOA also recovered a six figure sum from the developer for not paying maintenance fees on the weeks he owned, as well as forcing him to deed those weeks to the HOA.  That was one of the First Flight cases that settled out of court after Dunes South fought the same developer all the way to the State Supreme Court and whipped his tail in court at every turn.


----------



## Sou13

JackB62 said:


> Sou 13,
> 
> Did the current management refuse to give you the list of interval owners?
> 
> Thanks for all you've been doing!
> 
> Jack


Yes, not only was I refused but Rosaleen couldn't even find my email request.  She had forwarded my earlier email question about the meeting minutes to "capeguitarguy" Cliff Hagberg who has not replied to my email.  She was gracious as always and reminded me that we had been told at the annual meeting that we could not have access to the list because of the "privacy" laws.

Here's my post to the [merged] Sandcastle Shift to "Festiva" Points discussion: 

_Two owners who went to the Southcape Resort manager asking for these records were turned away because the owners' list is "confidential" and supposedly protected by the privacy laws. 

I emailed the resort manager with a request to inspect the books and copy the owners' address list while at the resort today. When I asked her whether she'd received my email request she couldn't find it. She had forwarded a previous message to Cliff Hagberg, who has yet to reply. Her answer is the same, that we were told at the owners' meeting that the mailing list is confidential and protected by privacy laws. 

Your suggestion about the real estate commission may be worth pursuing. In the meantime, my request to inspect the books while I'm on-site has been stonewalled, JUST AS I EXPECTED._


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> I don't want to rain on your parade, Fig, but here's the Outfield Marketing address:
> 
> Outfield Marketing
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Outfield Marketing Ltd.
> 
> Thomas C Franks RRP
> President
> 
> 
> 135 E Hickory Street
> 
> Denton, TX 76201-4215



Yes, Russ and I have posted about this. Have you looked at 135 E Hickory? Here is the link:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=135+E...ntAw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1

You will be in front of a brown building that is a police station. Hit the street view and shift left until you see a white shed with a white truck out in front. Pretty sad looking building. Do you really think a former president of Silverleaf works out of that? Something is awry.


----------



## Sou13

Well, there's no leave for doubt that Outfield Marketing and Festiva Resorts are both listed as located there.

Now can you see why I want to protect what little privacy I may have left?  I didn't realize that Google has street views as well as satellite views.  And "capeguitarguy" is using "privacy" as an excuse for refusing to let us copy our own owners' list?  Methinks it's his own private dealings he's trying to protect!


----------



## Stricky

I would think an afternoon at the county deeds office could result in a list of the owners.


----------



## Carolinian

Stricky said:


> I would think an afternoon at the county deeds office could result in a list of the owners.



Yes, but many addresses would be out of date.  As a former HOA board member, I am well aware that you need the resort's list.  People move after deeds are recorded and the resort has the new addresses but not the Register of Deeds.  Unless you are in one of the few states that taxes timeshare unit/weeks to individual owners rather than the resort as a whole, the tax office is not of any help either.

Instead of email, the demand to the resort for the list should be sent snail mail, certified, return receipt requested, with a copy to the state AG and to the Real Estate Commission.  It should specifically cite the statute, by number that gives the right to the list, and include a copy of that statute.  You should give them a date by which you expect a response or you will take other legal remedies.


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> Yes, but many addresses would be out of date.  As a former HOA board member, I am well aware that you need the resort's list.  People move after deeds are recorded and the resort has the new addresses but not the Register of Deeds.  Unless you are in one of the few states that taxes timeshare unit/weeks to individual owners rather than the resort as a whole, the tax office is not of any help either.
> 
> Instead of email, *the demand to the resort for the list should be sent snail mail, certified, return receipt requested, with a copy to the state AG and to the Real Estate Commissio*n.  It should specifically cite the statute, by number that gives the right to the list, and include a copy of that statute.  You should give them a date by which you expect a response or you will take other legal remedies.



Yes. A Demand Letter. You really need to start building and documenting the case. If nothing else, when or if this escalates to the courts, you have a case file that legal representation can work from, rather than having to build it from scratch. There is a lot of steps you can take without representation that would help lower your costs if you did need representation.

I know we all have this Perry Mason concept of how the law works. But courts really like to see that the respective parties have followed due process in getting to the court house, and not just rush to court when they disagree.


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> That was one of the First Flight cases that settled out of court after Dunes South fought the same developer all the way to the State Supreme Court and whipped his tail in court at every turn.



The Dunes South case is interesting in the context of Southcape. The facts were/are:

1) Developer was not paying m/f on developer inventory
2) Developer was not paying m/f on units reacquired by the developer
3) Developer passed an amendment to the by-laws, exempting their units from m/f

Court ruled:

Section 47A- 12 explicitly states that each unit owner is " bound to contribute" pro rata toward maintenance expenses for the common areas. N.C.G.S. [section] 47A- 12 (emphasis added). In addition, this section also addresses two methods by which an individual unit owner might attempt to unilaterally exempt itself from paying its share of maintenance expenses, providing that "[n]o unit owner may exempt himself from contributing toward such expense by waiver of the use or enjoyment of the common areas and facilities or by abandonment of the unit belonging to him." Id. In light of the purposes behind Chapter 47A and the language of N.C.G.S. [section] 47A- 12, *we do not believe that the legislature intended to allow a developer, as a unit owner, to unilaterally exempt itself from the payment of its pro rata share of the maintenance expenses for the common areas.* This is exactly what defendant attempted to do. Accordingly, we conclude that the Supplemental Declaration filed by defendant in this case was ineffective to exempt it from paying the maintenance assessments at issue here."

Or course that is North Carolina law. But here is what Mass law says:

 Except for assessments under subsections (c), (d) and (e), all time-share expenses shall be assessed against *all the time-shares* in accordance with the allocation set forth in the time-share instrument pursuant to section thirteen


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> The Dunes South case is interesting in the context of Southcape. The facts were/are:
> 
> 1) Developer was not paying m/f on developer inventory
> 2) Developer was not paying m/f on units reacquired by the developer
> 3) Developer passed an amendment to the by-laws, exempting their units from m/f
> 
> Court ruled:
> 
> Section 47A- 12 explicitly states that each unit owner is " bound to contribute" pro rata toward maintenance expenses for the common areas. N.C.G.S. [section] 47A- 12 (emphasis added). In addition, this section also addresses two methods by which an individual unit owner might attempt to unilaterally exempt itself from paying its share of maintenance expenses, providing that "[n]o unit owner may exempt himself from contributing toward such expense by waiver of the use or enjoyment of the common areas and facilities or by abandonment of the unit belonging to him." Id. In light of the purposes behind Chapter 47A and the language of N.C.G.S. [section] 47A- 12, *we do not believe that the legislature intended to allow a developer, as a unit owner, to unilaterally exempt itself from the payment of its pro rata share of the maintenance expenses for the common areas.* This is exactly what defendant attempted to do. Accordingly, we conclude that the Supplemental Declaration filed by defendant in this case was ineffective to exempt it from paying the maintenance assessments at issue here."
> 
> Or course that is North Carolina law. But here is what Mass law says:
> 
> Except for assessments under subsections (c), (d) and (e), all time-share expenses shall be assessed against *all the time-shares* in accordance with the allocation set forth in the time-share instrument pursuant to section thirteen




Nice find, Eric. It kinda begs the question, if so many lawyers looked at this deal, as Cliff says they did, how could they be so ignorant of Mass General Laws? 

In connecting the dots here, some mixture of Outfield Marketing peeps, Cliff Hagberger and possibly Fesitva peeps got a $2.5 loan to buy units at Southcape and Sandcastle. As part of the deal they also got appointed as trustees. In being trustees they get to secure the investment because they can up m/fs and not have to pay them themselves. In upgrading the properties at other's expenses on borrowed money they get to sell their hundreds of units down the line for a profit..._hopefully_...we will see where the economy takes this along with other real estate investments.

Now Festiva may be financially involved in this because all the legal documents are going to NC. If it were Outfield Marketing and Cliff alone, which make up the trustees, you would think some legal documents would be going to Outfield Marketing's Office in TX. But Google maps shows that to not be much of an office at all...a little shack of a shed that most people would find just big enough to store garden tools. Does Outfield Marketing really exist independent of Festiva? Third party? Hmmm...one wonders.

If Festiva is in on the deal, you would think their legal folks would have done due diligence to protect their investment. Things like seeing if Cliff can totally control the membership lists...which state law says he can't. This obviously puts the investment at risk because an owners group can form and throw out Cliff....another thing Massachusetts General Laws support. The same group can cause real problems as evidenced at Edgewater when they get a board going that does not act in interests of the developer.

And now Eric has uncovered a law that says a developer can not skirt m/fs. If Cliff is using a Mass lawyer, he or she should know this. If Festiva lawyers looked at this, they, of all people should know it...cause a similar ruling took place in NC where Festiva is headquarted.

Hey but, then again, Festiva lost in MO....has the AG in NC investigating it as well as complaints filed with AGs in Tennessee, Florida, South Carolina, Wisconsin, Maine and Louisiana...so maybe the legal dept is stretched a little thin these days?


----------



## ecwinch

Keep in mind that this case had to go to the NC Supreme Court. So you need to have the resources to fight the battle. 

So a simple answer is that they think that the issue is grey enough that they can out lawyer the owners. And these guys know exactly how timeshare associations operate, and that the playing field is slanted in their direction. They are reasonably sure they can extract their investment before this issue would impact them from a legal standpoint.

And as much as I wish it said explicitly that the developer has to pay m/f, it does not say that. Just like the NC law, a court would have to interpret that from the statue. So it is not cut and dry.

Also is it possible that Festiva is providing the loan?


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> Also is it possible that Festiva is providing the loan?



Sou13 uncoverd loan docs for this company. 

http://www.colebrookfinancial.com/index.htm

Makes sense. They are an ARDA member. Cliff was a past president there, as I recall and so was Tom Franks of Outfield. 

They seem to specialize in loans for the timeshare industry...they say on their webpage that they are doing okay financially, but you gotta wonder.


----------



## ChrisH

*NOT very easy to do!*



Stricky said:


> I would think an afternoon at the county deeds office could result in a list of the owners.



There are about 45 units in one section of Sandcastle and another 45 or so in the other building.  Then Sandcastle is open from sometime in March to sometime in Nov - so say 40 weeks.  90 units x 45 weeks is over 4000 deeds to find!!!! 

And then the addresses on them are from the time of purchase.  I bought mine over twenty years ago - moved since then - address no longer valid, phone number no longer valid = dead end.

If we can get/demand a current list - its a lot better.


----------



## ChrisH

From the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds with named Attorney: 

Bk-Pg:23138-185   Recorded: 09-04-2008 @ 3:44:18pm  Inst #: 46645  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N
Pages in document: 82
Grp: 1 
Type: Mortgage  Doc$: 2,500,000.00
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor:	NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)

Gtee:	COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtee)


Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-176
Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-181

	Return addr: 	DUNNING KIRRANE MCNICHOLS & GARNER LLP
		REGISTRY BOX # 9
		P. O. BOX 560
		MASHPEE, MA 02649


Recording Fee: 150.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00

The Deed can be viewed on line except it won't open for me with Java script even though I have the latest version.  So I cannot see the specifics which should include all the rules and regs re: owners.  It may be that we have to go back to the original deed with Fred Sateriale way back in the early 80's - I also found that one but cannot SEE the document because of the download problem.


----------



## ecwinch

Fig said:


> Sou13 uncoverd loan docs for this company.
> 
> http://www.colebrookfinancial.com/index.htm
> 
> Makes sense. They are an ARDA member. Cliff was a past president there, as I recall and so was Tom Franks of Outfield.
> 
> They seem to specialize in loans for the timeshare industry...they say on their webpage that they are doing okay financially, but you gotta wonder.



But Festiva would have to have some standing on the loan to be listed on the docs. Maybe as guarantor?


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> But Festiva would have to have some standing on the loan to be listed on the docs. Maybe as guarantor?



Maybe. Be nice to get a copy of it. All the legal documents are going to NC. Festiva's paralegal was listed on one of them. Also, the notorious letter that started this whole tread, I think, if I recall correctly, was based on a letter that Festiva routinely sends out when they are trying to get into a resort...even though it had Cliff's name on it.

"Your resort is in trouble financially....but fear not, we are professionals here to rescue you. First we will need to do a "special assessment" to replenish funds"...or something to that effect.  In the rush to get the letter out, they did not put it on any letterhead...maybe 'cause NEVS has none...'cause it is more of a business relationship than a company. This put owners at Southcape and Sandcastle on guard because it was so scammy looking. But what were they gonna do, use Festiva's letterhead? Outfield probably doesn't have any...they are known for having no paper at all...maybe so their claims can't be documented? Then again, Outfield saves a ton on office space and office supplies since they appear to have neither.

I would think Festiva would have to "pay to play" in some way if they hoped to enroll more victims in their points program. Plus, Outfield seems too small to have taken on the bulk of the loan....I guess Cliff is less than a 50% stakeholder. 

I may be all wrong...but that's my connect of the dark dots for now.


----------



## Sou13

*Here's where Festiva fits into the mix:*

Bk-Pg:23537-176    Recorded: 03-18-2009 @ 10:05:13am  Inst #: 13836  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N


Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Partial Discharge 
Desc: UNIT 409 TIME 9 
Refers to Book: 23138-185 

Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 


 Return addr:  FESTIVA RESORTS 
  1 VANCE GAP ROAD 
  ASHEVILLE NC 28805 


Recording Fee: 50.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00 

*and*

Bk-Pg:23537-181    Recorded: 03-18-2009 @ 10:05:13am  Inst #: 13838  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N


Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Partial Discharge 
Desc: UNIT 403 TIME 9 
Refers to Book: 23138-185 

Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 


 Return addr:  FESTIVA RESORTS 
  1 VANCE GAP ROAD 
  ASHEVILLE NC 28805 


Recording Fee: 50.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00

https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.PGM

*Here's the original deed:*

DOCUMENT ABSTRACT 
Bk-Pg:23138-109    Recorded: 09-04-2008 @ 3:44:18pm  Inst #: 46644  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N


Pages in document: 76 
Grp: 1 
Type: Deed  Doc$: 1,200,000.00 
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: BARTH, VINCENT J (AS ID AS TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: WOODS, ROBERT P (AS ID AS TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: ACQUISITIONS INC (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: JEC PROPERTIES INC (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SAND CASTLE NOMINEE TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: ROYAL COACHMAN CONDOMINUM TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SAND CASTLE CONDOMINIUM TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 


 Return addr:  DUNNING KIRRANE MCNICHOLS & GARNER LLP 
  REGISTRY BOX # 9 
  P. O. BOX 560 
  MASHPEE, MA 02649 


Recording Fee: 100.00 State excise: 6,840.00 Surcharge: 25.00

*It looks as though the original sale price was $1.2 million but that the mortgage is for $2.5 million, and whatever became of "capeguitarguy"?  He told us he has plenty of money or something to that effect.  He told us he owns only 25% of NEVS but 100% of NEVMS.  (He also told us that I'm all mixed up, which is why I have yet to post about the "agenda.")*


----------



## Carolinian

ecwinch said:


> Keep in mind that this case had to go to the NC Supreme Court. So you need to have the resources to fight the battle.
> 
> So a simple answer is that they think that the issue is grey enough that they can out lawyer the owners. And these guys know exactly how timeshare associations operate, and that the playing field is slanted in their direction. They are reasonably sure they can extract their investment before this issue would impact them from a legal standpoint.
> 
> And as much as I wish it said explicitly that the developer has to pay m/f, it does not say that. Just like the NC law, a court would have to interpret that from the statue. So it is not cut and dry.
> 
> Also is it possible that Festiva is providing the loan?



After First Flight lost the Dunes South case, they settled with the homeowners at their other three resorts, deeded over all their remaining weeks to the HOA's and in one case, Ocean Villas II, also paid a cash payment in six figures to the HOA.


----------



## Sou13

*Talk about being mixed up!*

Wow!  How "mixed up" can one get?  It's *Outfield Marketing* that owns 75% of NEVS, not "capeguitarguy" Cliff Hagberg!

Has anyone complained to the AG since reading the above posts?  Is anyone able to download the special program needed to read the deeds?  Can anyone clue us in on what that "partial discharge" entails?


----------



## ChrisH

*Partial Discharge - Deed Copies*

From Ask.com
A mortgage provision allowing some of the pledged collateral to be released from the mortgage contract if certain conditions are met.

Investopedia Says:
In other words, the partial release allows some of your collateral can be taken off the mortgage once a certain amount of the loan has been paid.

I can't get the java aplet to work on the Barnstable Registry of Deeds - it says in the FAQs they are trying to fix it, but I tried again yesterday and still no luck.

Chris


----------



## ChrisH

*FYI - Festiva Club Rules*

FROM:  Festival Resorts Adventure Club
Commonwealth of MA 
Public Offering Statement

6) Other Club-Related Information
a)As of December 31, 2008, there were a total of 13,200 Members in the Club. 

*(Gee I was told that Festiva had 100,000 plus members and millions in reserve money)*V) 

Managing Entity (ies)
    ….  Each Member, other than the Developer, will be a Class A Member of the Association and is entitled to cast 1 (one) vote for each Point that he or she owns.  The Developer (or any Appointee) is a Class B Member of the Association and is entitled to cast 3 (three) votes for each Point that the Developer owns.

…The Developer currently controls the Association, and the Developer has the right to retain control of the Association after a majority of points have been sold.

The Management Agreement has an initial term of five (5) years, commencing August 10, 2006 and expiring August 11, 2011, and will thereafter be automatically renewed for additional five (5) year terms, unless the Members by a vote of at least seventy-five (75%0 of the Voting Power residing in Members other than Developer at a meeting at which at least fifty percent (50%) of the Voting Power residing in Members other than Developer participate, by person or by proxy, elect not to renew the Management Agreement, or the Manager gives the Club sixty (60) days prior written notice…

VII 
2) 
i)	Standard Assessments.  After the Board of Directors Approves and establishes the Budget, the Board of Directors determines the respective Standard Assessment to be levied on each Member according to the provisions of Section 11.2 of the Declaration.  Each Member, including the Developer, shall pay a Standard Assessment for each membership owned.  

 …         Base Standard Assessment: $330.00 per Member
Points Standard Assessment: $0.75 per Point for Members with up to 5,999 Points: $0.65 per Point for Members with 6,000 or more Points.

And then there are those 'special assessments' on top of the Standard Assessments - was anyone told that??????


----------



## Carolinian

If you have to go to court, do not forget that almost all states have consumer protection statutes under which you can recover your attorney fees and TREBLE DAMAGES.  In North Carolina that applies if the court determines that a business act has been ''unfair or deceptive''.  I would look into using such statutes, and whether Outfield and Festiva can be brought in as defendants.




ecwinch said:


> Keep in mind that this case had to go to the NC Supreme Court. So you need to have the resources to fight the battle.
> 
> So a simple answer is that they think that the issue is grey enough that they can out lawyer the owners. And these guys know exactly how timeshare associations operate, and that the playing field is slanted in their direction. They are reasonably sure they can extract their investment before this issue would impact them from a legal standpoint.
> 
> And as much as I wish it said explicitly that the developer has to pay m/f, it does not say that. Just like the NC law, a court would have to interpret that from the statue. So it is not cut and dry.
> 
> Also is it possible that Festiva is providing the loan?


----------



## Sou13

*The Consumer Assistance Council, Inc. (CAC)*

*Serving Cape Cod & the Islands 


OUR MISSION STATEMENT​*
The Consumer Assistance Council, Inc. (CAC) has a primary objective to assist and educate consumers and sellers of goods and services about consumer protection laws. CAC’s secondary objective is to insure that consumer transactions are conducted in a fair and equitable manner and that ethical merchants are protected from unjustified complaints.
To bring about these objectives, CAC engages in any and all consumer related activities, including education, workshops and programs; carried out through public media, meetings with local groups and individual counseling.
This includes handling consumer questions and complaints in a courteous, efficient and informed manner. CAC assists the consumer by providing necessary information, directing and referring individuals to appropriate agencies, insuring that they are not "dead ended" and that they receive prompt assistance.
To reinforce support and exposure of our activities, CAC maintains continuing contact with all government officials, business and trade organizations, Chambers of Commerce, Councils on Aging, civic groups, the media and other associations that share our objective or need for fair treatment of/for consumers and merchants.

*Table of Contents*
Consumer Assistance Council – Who We Are and how we can help you. 
Frequently Asked Questions – about our Council or consumer topics. 
Fill out an Online Consumer Complaint Form.  
Current Issues – Topics of Interest to Consumers. 
Consumer Links – Online Resources.​LOCATE OTHER CONSUMER AGENCIES WHO WORK WITH THE MASSACHUSETTS ATTORNEY GENERAL​


----------



## CJT

Hey fellow Southcape owners,
My family has owned a unit for several years. We found this discussion board about 3 months ago after being contacted by Outfield Marketing (we typed "Southfield Scam" into the search area, and this board popped up immediately). Since we live about 7 hours away, we aren't able to come to the meetings, but we've checked the discussion several times to see what's been happening and to see if our thoughts mesh with some of the other owners.
For the record, when Outfield contacted us, they told us they wanted to schedule a meeting to discuss all of the wonderful changes that would occur with the new owners, and to update our account. We agreed, scheduled the meeting. The weekend before, we had a message on our machine reminding us that we both needed to be present, and we needed to be mindful that the salesman was coming from quite a distance. I lost my sweet disposition, called them back, and reminded them that they were the ones insisting on the meeting, not me. I then inquired about the salesman, since I had no idea previously that this was a sales call. I got a little more info, then told them that since they were deceptive in scheduling the appointment, they were not welcome in my home!
I heard nothing further from them until today, when the phone rang and caller id showed it was Outfield. The woman (Amanda) stated that she was calling from Southcape, and since our week was coming up, she wanted to confirm if we were using it and also to update our information since they have a new computer system. I inquired who she worked for, and she said that she was calling for Southcape. I said, but who do you work for, approximately 5 times, and not once did she identify herself as being from Outfield. She wiggled around it, saying that the owner of her company owned Southcape and Sandcastle. I asked if Southcape was paying her salary, and she again wiggled, saying that they have the same owner. I gave her a good deal of questioning, but you know the saying about pinning jello to the wall. Eventually she confirmed that we were coming on our scheduled week, and started to hang up. I stopped her and reminded her that she never asked anything to update my records as her initial statement had implied. She said oh, inquired if my address was still current, I said yes, then asked her (rather sarcastically I admit) if there was anything else. She asked my zipcode and I ended the call.
The long and short of my narrative is that there is no way on God's green earth we are going to give Festiva the privilege of owning our timeshare. I promise to give them a hassle each and every time they contact us!
Thank you to everyone who has been so involved on behalf of all of the owners. We will be checking in regularly to see how things stand and if there is anything we can do. I'll tell you this...there better look like $1.1 million in improvements when we are there!


----------



## ecwinch

Everyone that has received a similar call should click the CAC link provided, and report the occurrence. Be concise, without rhetoric.
Something like:

I am an timeshare owner at Southcape Resort, a timeshare located in Cape Cod, Mass. I have been an owner since xxxx.

On xxx date, I was contacted by telephone by XXXX of Outfield Marketing who said they were an agent of Southcape Resort. They asked to meet with me in my home to discuss changes that have occurred at the resort, and to update our account with Southcape. No mention was made of receiving a timeshare presentation.

However the meeting was nothing more than a timeshare presentation on the Festiva Adventure Club, a timeshare program. In the course of the presentation, the xxx specifically made statements about Southcape that I have since learned are untrue. These inaccurate statements were made in attempt to induce me to surrender my deed at the Southcape Resort in exchange for membership in the Festiva Adventure Club. 

Who can I contact to prevent Outfield Marketing from using these deceptive practices to schedule in-home timeshare presentations?

JMO


----------



## Sou13

*Welcome, CJT!*



CJT said:


> I'll tell you this...there better look like $1.1 million in improvements when we are there!



After spending the Memorial Day weekend in unit 8 and noting that the desk telephone has not been replaced and there is no wireless internet access, I notified rcassidy@southcaperesort.com that due to the fact that less than 1/2 of the scheduled improvements have been made, and that renovations to units 1-24 are unnecessary at this time, I am withholding the second 1/2 of the special assessment.  I attached the 2009 budget, special assessment breakdown, and trustees' meeting report as evidence that I am aware of where my $1,000 is supposed to be going.

I received a reply from NEVMSLLC advising me that I will be unable to use my week until payment has been made.  It was from a new email account and contained this warning:

"Attention: The information contained in this E-mail message is privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender by reply E-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you"

Since I won't be using the remaining four days of my week until Thanksgiving, I see no need to be paying interest on funds that are being collected in anticipation of making these scheduled renovations!  However, the renovations to units 1-24 are an unnecessary burden at this time and we need to speak out against this frivolous assessment.  Just because the previous manager didn't have good taste in picking furniture and drapes, we should not be told that these units have to be redone, especially if it means that we will be unable to use the units we have reserved!

Furthermore, we did not request to be added to the Festiva Family of Resorts and did not give Outfield Marketing permission to contact us.  And why did NEVS take out a $2.5 million mortgage when the sale price was $1.2 million?

We need consumer protection and we need it now!


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> And why did NEVS take out a $2.5 million mortgage when the sale price was $1.2 million?



Maybe 'cause it included Sandcastle units too? Just wondering who they paid the money to...Barth and Woods and some folks at Sandcastle? How I wish Festiva was public, then we could look at their financial statements. Just wondering how a company that sells points is doing in this economy when deeds on redweeks are selling for a fraction the cost of Festivas points program.


----------



## Fig

*Festiva and Southcape*

What is interesting is if you look up Outfield Marketing and Festiva Resorts in Massachusetts Sec of Commonwealth's office, Festiva recently regiestered to develop and sell timeshare in MA, Outfield did not...and yet Outfield is doing the selling. Outfield a third party or part of Festiva? Click the link and type in the names to get documents.

http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/corpsearch/corpsearchinput.asp


----------



## Sou13

*Can anyone view this declaration of trust?*

There is a 91-page "Declaration of Trust" on file at https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.HTM...&W9CTLN=00213&WSKYCD=B&W9IMID=B08269AA.AB4#go which I am unable to view.  Is there anyone viewing this discussion who is able to view this document?  This might be the "confidential" agreement to which NEVMSLLC was referring in 
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84127&page=10

According to the Barnstable Patriot the $1.2 million was for all the assets included in the developers' rights to Sandcastle and Southcape:

Town:                   
MASHPEE 950  
Address:
FALMOUTH RD
Price:
$1,200,000 
Seller:
BARTH, VINCENT J; WOODS, ROBERT P; SOUTHCAPE TRUST; ACQUISITIONS INC; SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUITY ASSOCIATION INC; JEC PROPERTIES INC; SAND CASTLE NOMINEE TRUST; ROYAL COACHMAN CONDOMINUM TRUS, T; SAND CASTLE CONDOMINIUM TRUST 
Buyer:
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES, LLC 
Date:
2008-09-04 00:00:00

What troubles me most about this transaction, and what I'm suggesting may warrant an AG investigation, is that the Southcape Resort & Club Community Association, Inc. is included as one of the sellers.  There are currently nearly 1000 non MF-paying weeks, of which NEVS owns 550+ and the remaining weeks should be owned by us deeded weeks owners, not NEVS.  There are more than 50 weeks on record that were deeded back to the association in 1992, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008.  It's hard for me to come up with the exact count, but did NEVS acquire these weeks and if so, why?


----------



## Sou13

*Here's how complaints are handled*

OFFICE HOURS MONDAY - FRIDAY 9 AM - 3 PM 

Consumer Assistance Council (CAC), is a non-profit volunteer organization that serves to educate & assist consumers in trying to resolve complaints with merchants. An experienced volunteer mediator will mediate your complaint through an informal process in an effort to reach a mutually agreeable settlement. CAC is NOT A LEGAL ASSISTANCE AGENCY & CAN NOT PROVIDE LEGAL ADVICE OR REPRESENTATION. WE DO NOT HAVE ENFORCEMENT POWERS.

DOWN LOAD AN OFFICIAL COMPLAINT FORM

COMPLAINT PROCESS - HOW WE WORK

When your completed Complaint Form is received, it will be assigned to a volunteer mediator who will handle your complaint. A letter will be sent to the business requesting that they respond within 14 days. If a reply is not received, the volunteer mediator will attempt additional follow up.

You will receive a letter from us indicating your CASE NUMBER, (please keep this case number for future reference when you contact the office) and noting the name of your volunteer mediator and the day he/she volunteers, should you need to speak with them. Please keep your Volunteer Mediator informed of any new developments in your case.

Please note that the names of all parties are submitted to the Attorney General's Office so that agency may effectively monitor any emerging patterns relative to your complaint. The Attorney General may then be in a position to intervene in those cases that affect a larger segment of the population.

If you have questions concerning the specific application or interpretation of the law, you should consult a private attorney. If you do not have an attorney you can call the following Bar Association for your area:

BARNSTABLE COUNTY BAR ASSOCIATION
3180 Main Street
Barnstable, MA 02630    508-362-2121


If you cannot afford an attorney you may be eligible for assistance through your local Legal Services Office. Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We hope we can provide assistance to you.

Click here to obtain the Complaint Form


Home | Who We Are | Current Issues | Complaint Form | FAQ | Consumer Links

Consumer Assistance Council, Inc.
149 Main Street • Hyannis, MA 02601 

*Now that I've downloaded the page it looks as though this isn't the route to take after all!* 



ecwinch said:


> Everyone that has received a similar call should click the CAC link provided, and report the occurrence. Be concise, without rhetoric.
> Something like:
> 
> I am an timeshare owner at Southcape Resort, a timeshare located in Cape Cod, Mass. I have been an owner since xxxx.
> 
> On xxx date, I was contacted by telephone by XXXX of Outfield Marketing who said they were an agent of Southcape Resort. They asked to meet with me in my home to discuss changes that have occurred at the resort, and to update our account with Southcape. No mention was made of receiving a timeshare presentation.
> 
> However the meeting was nothing more than a timeshare presentation on the Festiva Adventure Club, a timeshare program. In the course of the presentation, the xxx specifically made statements about Southcape that I have since learned are untrue. These inaccurate statements were made in attempt to induce me to surrender my deed at the Southcape Resort in exchange for membership in the Festiva Adventure Club.
> 
> Who can I contact to prevent Outfield Marketing from using these deceptive practices to schedule in-home timeshare presentations?
> 
> JMO


----------



## ecwinch

*File the Complaint with the Mass AG*

Given the nature of the problem, and the fact that most people reporting here would not be able to claim damages (since they did not buy FAC), I would agree that the local mediation services provided by CAC would not be my first choice.

I would do the following:

Make a complaint to NEVS by e-mail, phone, mail, or fax. The form would be similar to what I outlined, but with a request that they stop contacting owners under false pretenses and that they fully disclose that the owner will be receiving a timeshare presentation.

Then I would file a complaint with the Mass AG. Here is the link:

Mass AG Consumer Complaint Information.

Mass AG Consumer Complaint Form

It is a fillable Adobe PDF document that can be filed on line. It has a section where it asks what outcome you want. I would put something like what you suggested NEVS stop doing.


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## Sou13

*Office of the Attorney General*

MARTHA COAKLEY

ATTORNEY GENERAL

April 16, 2009 - For immediate release: 

Attorney General Martha Coakley Obtains Temporary Restraining Order Against Former Owner of Cape Cod Time-Share Who Allegedly Scammed Consumer Out of Millions 

BOSTON – Attorney General Martha Coakley’s Office has obtained a temporary restraining order against Robert Reposa, the former owner of the Navigator Beach Club (Navigator) and LSC Associates (LSC), the time-share’s developer and managing entity, who collected over $1.5 million from consumers in exchange for time-share intervals at the Navigator which were never made available for use. In a lawsuit filed yesterday in Suffolk Superior Court, the Attorney General’s Office allegesthat the defendants’ conduct violated the Massachusetts Consumer Protection Act and the Massachusetts Real Estate Time-Share Act in connection with the construction and development of the Navigator as well as the marketing and sale of the time-share intervals.  The temporary restraining order prohibits Reposa and LSC from collecting monies from consumers for any time-share intervals in Massachusetts. 
“The defendants in this case took well over $1 million in deposits from consumers for Navigator time-share intervals, yet failed to ever complete construction on the time-share resort or even record the time-share licenses,” said Attorney General Martha Coakley. “Time-share developers cannot mislead consumers by making sales pitches that promise what they cannot deliver in order toobtain hard-earned money from consumers.”

According to the complaint, from 2005 through 2008, Reposa and LSC targeted and deceived over 100 consumers, including dozens of senior citizens, in connection with the sale of time-share intervals for the Navigator, a time-share resort located in Dennisport. The defendants gave consumers false assurances that the resort was financially sound and would be completed by 2007.  The defendants took significant payments from consumers for time-share weeks, but never recorded the individual time-share licenses, or completed the construction on the project beyond installation of some rough plumbing and electricity in Navigator’s pre-existing buildings. As part of their sales strategy, Reposa and LSC also falsely represented that the Navigator would be part of a time-share exchange network, which would allow consumers to exchange their time-share week at the Navigator for a week at a different resort, but evidence suggests that any membership the Navigator had in an established time-share network was quickly revoked.

According to the complaint, prices for the time-shares ranged from $10,900 up to $54,900. By at least as early as the summer of 2006, however, Reposa and LSC allegedly knew that the Navigator was experiencing financial problems and that construction would not be completed by its target date. In an effort to quickly acquire as much cash as possible from consumers, the defendants allegedly induced consumers into paying off their entire remaining balances by offering an “early payment” discount.

The complaint further alleges that Reposa and LSC violated the Massachusetts Real Estate Time-Share Act by failing to record consumers’ time-share licenses with either the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds or the Barnstable County Registry District of the Land Court, thereby leaving no record of consumers’ time-share interval ownership.

Under the temporary restraining order issued April 15, 2009, by Judge Christopher Muse, the defendants are prohibited from forming a business to manage or develop a time-share resort in Massachusetts, destroying records that relate to their personal and business finances and disposing of any of their assets. As part of this lawsuit, the Attorney General’s Office is seeking restitution, penalties and costs, including attorney’s fees from the defendants. A hearing for a preliminary injunction is scheduled for Tuesday, April 21, 2009 at 2:00 p.m. in Suffolk Superior Court.

This matter was handled by Assistant Attorney General Shannon Choy-Seymour and Paralegal Lois Martin of Attorney General Coakley’s Consumer Protection Division with assistance from Dean Bates of Attorney General Coakley’s Investigations Division.


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## Sou13

*AG Urges Consumers to Beware of Time-Share Re-Sellers*

MARTHA COAKLEY

ATTORNEY GENERAL

May 06, 2009 - For immediate release: 

CONSUMER ADVISORY: AG Urges Consumers to Beware of Time-Share Re-Sellers

BOSTON- Today, Attorney General Martha Coakley’s Office urged consumers to beware of individuals making unsolicited offers to them to re-sell their time-share. Recently, the Attorney General’s Office has received many complaints about this practice, particularly about re-sellers who offer to sell or buy a consumer’s time-share as long as the consumer pays them some upfront fee to cover the transaction costs.  The Attorney General’s Office advises consumers to be aware of each of the following red flags which may indicate you have encountered a time-share resale scam: 

You receive an unsolicited telephone call or other unsolicited contact, offering to sell or buy your time-share;
The “re-seller” claims that it has a buyer for your time-share, even though you may not have listed it for sale;
The re-seller claims that an offer received for your time-share is more than your asking price if you have listed the property;
The re-seller claims that it has a special relationship with your time-share company;
The re-seller represents that you must pay for a resale closing in advance, or pay taxes in advance, or other fees such as a “listing” or “appraisal” fee;
The re-seller states that it can trade your property for another;
The re-seller requests your bank account or credit card information;
The re-seller expresses a need to complete the sales transaction quickly.
The re-seller offers to pay you for your time-share, but tells you that when you receive the check, you will need to send back a portion to a third party.  Be aware that the check or other payment may be fraudulent, and if the check bounces, your bank will look to you for repayment.
If you receive an unsolicited offer to re-sell your time-share, you should ask the following questions;


Who is the re-seller? 
Is he or she a licensed real estate broker in his or her state; does he or she need to be?
Does the broker or real estate company have any complaints on file with the Attorney General’s Office, Better Business Bureau or the state licensing board for real estate brokers? 
If the re-seller has claimed to have a “special relationship” with your time-share company, does the management company know them?
Remember, that “if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.”  If there are other units for sale at your time-share, you should question why a potential buyer would pay a high price for yours.  You should never give your bank account or credit card information to someone who has contacted you unsolicited, even if they tell you they just want to “verify” your information.  Ask for materials and documents evidencing any transaction in writing, and review them with a trusted advisor.  And, finally, do not send money or your deed to anyone without knowing who you are dealing with — you may never get them back.

If you believe you have encountered one of these scams, contact the Attorney General’s Public Inquiry & Assistance Center Hotline at 617-727-8400. You can also file a complaint online at www.mass.gov/ago/consumer_complaint.


----------



## Betty

*Should We Contact the AG?*

Hello Everyone,

We have been owners at Southcape Resort for five years.  We have been following this discussion with much interest, because we are very concerned that our ownership at this resort is in jeopardy.

We would like to file a complaint with the AG in the hope that an investigation would be started into what is happening at Southcape (and Sandcastle, too, since they are in a similar boat).  However, I don't know how to go about it, because we don't have an actual complaint against Festiva, since we never actually spoke with anyone about the Festiva AC other than the initial telephone call we received late last fall from a young woman, who I assume was representing Outfield Marketing, although I can't remember how she introduced herself.  

She said she was calling to set up a meeting in our home with someone who would call on us to tell us about all the great changes that were taking place at Southcape and what wonderful things were in store for us as owners.  My husband recognized better than I that it sounded too much like a marketing ploy, so we refused to make an appointment.  To say the young lady was incredulous that we weren't taking advantage of this wonderful opportunity is an understatement.  Unlike many others, we were never contacted again.  Even when we visited the resort in March, no one approached us.  Guess we're just lucky.

While at the resort, I met with Rosaleen Cassidy and requested a copy of the owners' list.  She told me she'd been told (by Cliff Hagberg I believe) that she couldn't provide that to owners as it was confidential in order to protect the owners' privacy.  Does anyone know if federal privacy laws take precedent in this situation over the Mass. GLs that clearly state that I should have been able to get a copy?  I guess Outfield Marketing was entitled to the list, because they have a 75% ownership at the resort.  How else would they have access to everyone's phone numbers?

My dilemma is what would our actual complaint to the AG be other than to make a request for an investigation into what is happening at the resort based on what we have heard others say about being coerced, pressured and downright lied to to convince them to give up their deeds for membership in the Festiva Adventure Club without them perhaps fully understanding that from that point on they would no longer have any say in what happens at the Southcape Resort, because they would no longer be owners there.  And to boot, it was going to cost them over $3000 to do that.

Perhaps we could complain that we feel the special assessment may be illegal, because it was arbitrarily set by people who were never elected by all the owners to make such decisions;  that the new owners, New England Vacation Services, LLC, have taken over the role of developer and as such say they do not have to pay maintenance fees and special assessments.  What gives them developer's rights?  I thought the resort was fully developed already and that they were just the owners of the unsold inventory.  Why does that make them different from other owners except that they own way more weeks than the rest of us?  Shouldn't they have to pay MFs and SAs like all owners do?  What automatically makes them the only members of the board that makes all decisions for the rest of us without the rest of us having any representation?

We're not complaining about the need for the special assessment per se, or even the additional money that was requested to start a reserve fund, which every well run resort needs.  It's the way it came about and the manner in which it was requested that bothers us.  That, and the fact that NEVSLLC feels they are exempt from paying these fees, is what bothers us and seems totally wrong and possibly illegal.  We can't help but feel that, even though we know the resort needed the repairs that have been made thus far to keep it from deteriorating further, these updates will not only help NEVSLLC sell their unsold inventory and make a profit at no additional cost to them, but that it was done on the backs of the other owners who have solely born the brunt of these expenses.  Cliff will argue that all owners benefit in the long run from a well run resort that is in great physical and fiscal shape, but who has the most to gain here?  Me thinks it is NEVSLLC, especially since they can do as they please with no representation on the Board of Directors by other owners at the resort.  The by-laws clearly state that we should have representation.  How do we go about getting it when we can't even get a list of our fellow owners?

So again I ask, should we even bother to contact the AG?  And if so, what points should we make, so they will hopefully begin an investigation into the unscrupulous things that are happening at both Southcape and Sandcastles?

Has anyone out there contacted the AG, and if so, what was their response if any?

Thanks for listening.  There are so many other things to mention that I really don't even know if I've touched on the most important ones.  Please share your thoughts and ideas.  We will be eternally grateful since we don't know where to begin.

Al & Betty


----------



## JackB62

*Contact the AG!*

Al & Betty,

I'm glad to see new participants in this board. We of like mind should keep in touch and do everything we can to stop what's going on at Southcape.

Martha Coakly is the Mass. AG. Please write her. The more letters she gets, the more interested she'll become. You will get a response of some sort.

I agree w/ you on your issues: interval owners are not represented on the Board; the new "management company" gets away with no maintenance fees or special assessments; by raising fees to a breaking point, more owners may walk away and then NEVS will own it all for virtually no investment.

I don't like pirates stealing from me. Let's not tolerate this!


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## CIC3

*Board Elections*

Hello everyone,

Does anyone else recall that as timeshare owners we did elect members to the Southcape board at one time? This was probably back in the 1980s. I recall receiving a letter from them in which we had to check off the names to elect members to the board to represent us. Then at some point, we no longer received the election letter.

When we write the Mass AG, I'm wondering if we should point out the requirements in the Master Deed that the new management company is not following, in addition to the unscrupulous sales practices that might have caused some owners to switch to points because they were scared into thinking that, financially, that was their only option to avoid higher maintenance fees and special assessments. At the very least, it could give these owners who did switch the opportunity to rethink their decision once they know all the facts.

In terms of Outfield Marketing, we experienced the same situation as others here in the group. Except that my wife called them back to confirm that it wasn't a sales call and we were assured it wasn't. So we met with the Outfield Marketing representative and the first thing the gentlemen asked is whether we had received any contact from timeshare resellers? He showed us some direct sales pieces and we told him we hadn't. Then he proceeded to explain that they were scams and actually showed us names of people on a printout of who were scammed and the amount they paid to be scammed. He then went on to tell us about how our maintenance fees for the 2 weeks we own are going to skyrocket because of the poor condition of Southcape and the need for a new sewage system. He told us that Southcape is being switched to points and if we took his deal that day, we would receive more points than those who come on board later, our maintenance fee would decrease because it’s being divided by all the owners under all the Festiva Resorts, and we wouldn't need to worry about paying a special assessment, because it would come from the money in the operating fund of all Festiva Resorts. However, we had to pay $3,300 to switch to points. In looking at the Festiva Resorts timeshare book, I found that with the points we would be given, we would only be able to take 1 week vacation during the red demand time, rather than the 2 weeks we currently exchange and receive red weeks for. So the deal was definitely not to our benefit. In short, we would actually be paying $3,300 to give up one week of vacation.

We are going to Southcape the week of July 4, and I plan to check into why we no longer elect people to the board and to request a tour of the upgrades that were outlined in the maintenance fee and special assessment letters to be sure they were completed. If anyone would like me to check on anything else or ask any additional questions, let me know. 

We are also working on our letter to the Mass AG! 

We’ll let you know how we make out at Southcape and when we hear from the AG office.

Joe, Ginny and Mimi


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## Sou13

*Where are all the happy Festiva converts?.*

Welcome, CIC3, and thank you for your post and willingness to help!

I've been searching for "happy" Festiva converts and haven't found one yet.  The only happy FAC member I've found is happy because he got a special deal, didn't have to give up a deeded week, and got bonus points as part of a special deal.  He has stayed at only one Festiva resort and has done all his trades through I.I. which means he has to pay to belong to I.I. after the first year, and has to pay an exchange fee for every exchange.  But because he got bonus points, he was able to get good exchanges.  No wonder he's happy!

But he didn't give up or own a deeded week at Southcape.  For tales from unhappy Southcape converts, go to Festiva takes over resort ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)  where I'm sharing their experiences.


----------



## ChrisH

I am trying, by reading the MGL, UGHHH! to find out what constitutes the Association as described in the NEVS, OM, and Festiva papers and if it even applies to weeks owners who are not affiliated with Festiva.

I am THINKING (bad idea) - that all their F***ing rules apply to FESTIVA ADVENTURE CLUB MEMBERS, and if you are a WEEKS OWNER and NOT a POINTS MEMBER, then the rules that apply to US (weeks member) would be different???  because we have our own timeshare agreements, filed waaayyyyy back when

and the Points Members are the only ones that fall under the Festiva, NEVS agreements because we are not members of that group.  

Still reading, still searching.  Don't understand how they can apply Association Rules to us, because we are not members of their Association but are the greedy, "I will not give up my deed to you no matter what"  members.

Anybody got any thoughts on this?

ChrisH (Sandcastle)


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## Sou13

*Complain to the AG!*

From what I'm reading about complaints in other states, it takes a lot of complaining to get any action.

Here's what happened in Missouri:

An Equivest/Peppertree owner received the information from the Missouri Attorney General in the mail.  Here is a recap:


State of Missouri  v  Festiva Resorts, LLC / A Nevada Limited Liability Company.

The first few pages include the Introduction; Parties; Venue; Jurisdiction; etc., and the complaint was raised under that State's Merchandising Practices Act.

The report goes to identify the specifics of that Act which were violated.

Specifically, 

a,  It was considered that Festiva falsely promised consumers that Defendant would sell consumers' currently owned time share at a different resort to induce consumers to purchase a time share from  Defendant; 

b, Misrepresenting to consumers that Defendant would sell consumers' currently owned time share at a different resort to induce consumers to purchase a time share from Defendant;

c, Falsely promising consumers that if they purchased a time share from Defendant, Defendant would assist consumers in renting the purchased time share at the Cabins at Green Mountain thus inducing consumers to purchase a time share from Defendant;

d, Misrepresenting to consumers that if they purchased a time share from Defendant, Defendant would assist consumers in renting the purchased time share at the Cabins at Green Mountain thus inducing consumers to purchase a time share from Defendant; 

e, Falsely promising consumers that Defendant would "take back" consumers time share at Cabins at Green Mountain if consumers were not satisfied to induce consumers to purchase time share from Defendant;

f.  Misrepresenting that Defendant would "take back" consumers time share at Cabins at Green Mountain if consumers were not satisfied to induce consumers to purchase time share from Defendant; 

g,  Giving consumers the false impression that if they purchased a time share from Defendant they could easily book condominiums in desirable locations at desirable rates when same was not true.

h, Misrepresenting the ability and ease with which consumers would be able to obtain various travel services after purchasing a time share from Defendant;

i, Misrepresenting the prices or terms at which consumers would be able to obtain travel services after purchasing a time share from Defendant;

j,  Engaging in the unfair practice of failing to give the consumers adequate time to examine the material and documents related to the time share prior to the consumers purchase of the time share;

k,  Employing the unfair practice of imposing an extremely short time limit on consumers' purchasing decisions, such as requiring a decision before the consumer left the sales presentation, thereby creating an artificial sense of urgency.  When coupled with Defendants' high pressure tactics, this practice has the effect of causing consumers to be likely to make a hasty decision on a major purchase;

In conclusion, As a direct result of Defendant's Merchandising Practices Act violations consumers have sustained in excess of $200,000.00 in damages in out of pocket losses which Defendant Festiva Resorts, LLC has converted to its own use and benefit, and, if not enjoined will convert funds of other victims in Missouri and nationwide using the same forbidden merchandising practices.  Defendant's actions also taint the reputation of the Branson area and damage to reputable time share vendors in the Branson ares.

So there you have it.  The representatives of Festiva promised the sun, the moon and the stars and told every kind of lie they could think of at the time to make a sale.

This entire document is about 25 pages long.


----------



## Sou13

*Chapter 183b. Real Estate Time-shares*

CHAPTER 183B. REAL ESTATE TIME-SHARES 


Chapter 183B: Section 53. Exchange programs; information; promotional literature; liability 


Section 53. (a) If a purchaser may participate in any exchange program, the developer, agent of a developer or person in the business of selling real estate for his own account shall, except as provided in subsection (b), deliver to the purchaser at the time of delivery of the public offering statement required by section thirty-seven, written information regarding said exchange program and the purchaser shall certify in writing to the receipt thereof. Said information shall include the following: 

(1) the name and address of the exchange company; 

(2) the names of all officers, directors, and shareholders owning five per cent or more of the outstanding stock of the exchange company; 

(3) a statement indicating whether the exchange company or any of its officers or directors has any legal or beneficial interest in any developer or managing entity for any time-share plan participating in the exchange program and, if so, the name and location of the time-share property and the nature of the interest; 

(4) unless the exchange company is also the developer or an affiliate of a developer, a statement that the purchaser’s contract with the exchange company is a contract separate and distinct from the contract of sale; 

(5) a statement indicating whether the purchaser’s participation in the exchange program is dependent upon the continued affiliation of the time-share plan with the exchange program and the readmission fees, dues and other charges which shall be required to be paid by the purchaser if he initially becomes a member of the exchange program, allows the membership to lapse and then seeks reinstatement or readmission; 

(6) a statement indicating whether the purchaser’s membership or participation in the exchange program is voluntary or mandatory; 

(7) a complete and accurate description of the terms and conditions of the purchaser’s contractual relationship with the exchange company and the procedure by which changes thereto may be made; 

(8) a complete and accurate description of the procedure to qualify for and effectuate exchanges; 

(9) a complete and accurate description in boldface type of all restrictions, limitations or priorities employed in the operation of the exchange program and the manner of application thereof, including, without limitation, any restrictions, limitations or priorities based on seasonality, unit size, or levels of occupancy; 

(10) a statement indicating whether exchanges are arranged on a space-available basis and whether any guarantees of specific requests for exchanges are made by the exchange program, and if so, the nature thereof; 

(11) a complete and accurate description of the circumstances, if any, in which a time-share owner may lose the use and occupancy of his time-share in any properly applied for exchange without being provided with substitute accommodations by the exchange company; 

(12) the fees for participation by time-share owners in the exchange program, a statement whether any such fees may be altered by the exchange company, and the circumstances under which alterations may be made; 

(13) the name and location of each time-share property, accommodation or facility participating in the exchange program; 

(14) the number of units in each property which qualify for participation in the exchange program and which are available for occupancy expressed within the following numerical groupings: 1-5; 6-10; 11-20; 21-50; and 51 and over; 

(15) with respect to each time-share plan or other property the number of owners who are eligible to participate in the exchange program expressed within the following numerical groupings: 1-100; 101-249; 250-499; 500-999; and 1,000 and over; and the criteria used to determine current eligibility to participate in the exchange program; 

(16) the disposition made by the exchange company of time-shares deposited by eligible owners with the exchange program and not used by the exchange company in effecting exchanges; 

(17) a statement indicating the following information, which, except as provided in subsection (b), shall be independently audited by a certified public accountant or accounting firm and reported for each year no later than July first, of the succeeding year: 

(i) the number of the time-share owners enrolled in the exchange program, the number of said owners who are fee paying and the number of said owners who are enrolled gratuitously; 

(ii) the number of time-share properties, accommodations or facilities eligible to participate in the exchange program categorized by those having a contractual relationship between the developer or the association and the exchange company and those having a contractual relationship between the exchange company and time-share owners directly; 

(iii) the percentage of confirmed exchanges, which shall be the number of exchanges confirmed by the exchange company divided by the number of exchanges properly applied for, together with a complete and accurate statement of the criteria used to determine whether an exchange request was properly applied for. An exchange shall be confirmed when an eligible time-share owner applies for and receives the right to occupy an exchanged time-share for a time period during the year reported; 

(iv) the number of exchanges confirmed by the exchange company during the year; 

(v) the number of time-shares for which the exchange company has an outstanding obligation to provide an exchange to a time-share owner who relinquished a time-share during the year in exchange for a time-share in any future year; 

(18) a statement in boldface type that the percentage described in subclause (iii) of clause (17) of subsection (a) does not indicate a purchaser’s or owner’s probabilities of being confirmed to any specific choice, as availability at individual locations may vary. 

(b) The information required by subsection (a) shall be accurate as of a date which is not more than thirty days prior to the date on which the information is delivered to the purchaser, except that the information required by clauses (2), (3), (13), (14), (15) and (17) of subsection (a) shall be accurate as of December thirty-first of the preceding year if the information is delivered between July first and December thirty-first of any year; information delivered between January first and June thirtieth of any year shall be accurate as of December thirty-first of the year prior to the preceding year. All references in this section to the word “year” shall mean calendar year. 

(c) In the event an exchange company offers an exchange program directly to the purchaser or time-share owner, the exchange company shall deliver to each purchaser or time-share owner, prior to such offering or the execution of any contract between the purchaser or time-share owner and said company the information set forth in subsection (a). This section shall not apply to the renewal of any contract between the purchaser or time-share owner and the exchange company offering the exchange program. 

(d) Each exchange company offering an exchange program to purchasers in the commonwealth shall include the statement set forth in paragraph (18) of subsection (a) on all promotional brochures, pamphlets, advertisements or other materials which contain the percentage of confirmed exchanges described in subclause (iii) of clause (17) of subsection (a) and which are disseminated by the exchange company. 

(e) No developer shall have any liability arising out of the use, delivery or publication by the developer of written or printed information or audio-visual materials provided to it by the exchange company pursuant to this section. Except as otherwise provided in this subsection, no exchange company shall have any liability with respect to (i) any representation made by the developer relating to the exchange program or exchange company, or (ii) the use, delivery or publication by the developer of any information relating to the exchange program or exchange company. An exchange company shall be liable for written or printed information or audio-visual materials provided to the developer or to a purchaser or time-share owner by the exchange company. The failure of the exchange company to comply with the provisions of this section, or the use by it of any unfair or deceptive act or practice in connection with the operation of the exchange program, shall constitute a violation of this chapter.


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## Sou13

*AG action in Missouri*

Under state law, timeshares are defined as merchandise and fall within the guidelines of Missouri's Merchandising Practices Act, Chapter 407, Missouri Revised Statutes.

Use of any deception, fraud, false pretense, false promise, misrepresentation, unfair practice or concealment of fact by a person in connection with the sale of timeshares is subject to civil and criminal penalties that may be brought by the Attorney General. 

Major provisions of a state law protecting buyers are:

• A five-day right of recision. If a consumer signs a contract to buy a timeshare and then changes his mind, he has five days to cancel. The cancellation must be in writing, and cancellation is effective when the letter is postmarked. According to state law, the seller must give the buyer an 18-point, boldface printed notice of the right to cancel at the time of purchase.

• Follow through on promotional offers. The name of the business entity and all timeshare operations involved in the promotion must be included in promotional literature. This material also must contain the deadline by which all prizes are to be awarded, the odds of winning each prize and the manufacturer' s suggested retail price for each prize.

• Delivery of promised gifts. When the seller uses free offers or other promotions when soliciting, the seller must deliver any promised gifts or an acceptable substitute gift or cash in an amount equal to the retail value of the gift offered within 10 days of when promised.  The seller also must make available to the public a list of names and addresses of all winners. If the seller fails to provide the buyer with a promised gift, the buyer can sue.

• Explanation of timeshare exchange plans. Exchange plans usually involve trading a vacation at one timeshare facility for a vacation in another location. Limitations, restrictions or priorities regarding exchange programs must be outlined for the buyer. For example, the timeshare operator must tell a buyer if a Lake of the Ozarks vacation can be exchanged for an Alaska vacation only during December.

Complaints range from disappointment with a prize and high-pressure sales tactics to outright deception and fraud. Typical complaints include:

• Not informing consumers they must listen to a lengthy sales pitch before receiving their "prizes."
• Misrepresenting the facility's physical condition.
• Misrepresenting the facility's market value.
• Misrepresenting the facility's resale or exchange potential.
• Making oral promises that were omitted from the written contract.
• Including fees and obligations in the contract that never were
mentioned orally.


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## Carolinian

Fig said:


> What is interesting is if you look up Outfield Marketing and Festiva Resorts in Massachusetts Sec of Commonwealth's office, Festiva recently regiestered to develop and sell timeshare in MA, Outfield did not...and yet Outfield is doing the selling. Outfield a third party or part of Festiva? Click the link and type in the names to get documents.
> 
> http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/corpsearch/corpsearchinput.asp



I would report this to the relevent authorities.  In NC, it would be the state Real Estate Commission.


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## Sou13

ChrisH said:


> I am trying, by reading the MGL, UGHHH! to find out what constitutes the Association as described in the NEVS, OM, and Festiva papers and if it even applies to weeks owners who are not affiliated with Festiva.
> 
> I am THINKING (bad idea) - that all their F***ing rules apply to FESTIVA ADVENTURE CLUB MEMBERS, and if you are a WEEKS OWNER and NOT a POINTS MEMBER, then the rules that apply to US (weeks member) would be different???  because we have our own timeshare agreements, filed waaayyyyy back when
> 
> and the Points Members are the only ones that fall under the Festiva, NEVS agreements because we are not members of that group.
> 
> Still reading, still searching.  Don't understand how they can apply Association Rules to us, because we are not members of their Association but are the greedy, "I will not give up my deed to you no matter what"  members.
> 
> Anybody got any thoughts on this?
> 
> ChrisH (Sandcastle)


Are you able to view the deeds?  If you are, what can you tell us about the 91-page Declaration of Trust and the partial discharges to Festiva in the $2.5 million mortgage document?

Bk-Pg:23138-185    Recorded: 09-04-2008 @ 3:44:18pm  Inst #: 46645  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N


Pages in document: 82 
Grp: 1 
Type: Mortgage  Doc$: 2,500,000.00 
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtee) 


Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-176 
Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-181 

 Return addr:  DUNNING KIRRANE MCNICHOLS & GARNER LLP 
  REGISTRY BOX # 9 
  P. O. BOX 560 
  MASHPEE, MA 02649 


Recording Fee: 150.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00


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## ChrisH

*Master Deed/Trust Document*

This one is very much like the 'Public Offering Statement' that they provide if you choose to 'become a member' of Festiva by 'paying them $$$$ to take your deeded week."

It was originally set up, I think it started with SC or NC and then every time they add a resort in a different state or county in some states, they update it.  So it was used in several different counties in SC, NC, MO, FL, GA etc. and now in MA.
It defines the Declarant (Festiva) and then the Trustees and the Association etc.  and lists all the RIGHTs of each.  The capacity of the trustee.  The voting rights. How the Association has to proceed to remove or change a trustee.  The usage limits. The insurance requirements. All the legal stuff.  What documents must be available for viewing like budgets and costs etc.  The maintenance rules/fees/ points, yadayadayada.  
They must be updating it depending on the state and the related timeshare laws for that state.  Then I think they have to submit it, for MA under 183B so they can operate.

I've noticed in some of their trust docs that they increase the voting rights of Festiva and or the Trustee, and also increase the number of Association votes required for the Association to do anything.

In the original Master Deed for Sandcastle weeks, if the Association owns 51% or more, they are the majority and any 51% can pass a vote.
This one says 2/3rds required to pass a vote.
In the Festiva POS for Sandcastle the Trustee gets 3 votes for each week/interval held by Festiva and the owners get 1 vote for each week interval - and then I can't remember, I think it takes a 75% vote for something to pass.
I guess with each update they give themselves more and more power.  So if they own 20 unused weeks - they get 60 votes.  
I think the 'partial discharge' is in relation to them amending some sections or rules.  I thought it was paying off part of the mortgage, but I didn't see that although I didn't look at all  91 pages.


----------



## ChrisH

PS It basically is a document that defines, covers or answers the requirements you posted for 183B yesterday.


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## Fig

Chris, you write "I think the 'partial discharge' is in relation to them amending some sections or rules. I thought it was paying off part of the mortgage, but I didn't see that although I didn't look at all 91 pages."

I think Sou13 made mention of the fact that they only paid 1.5 million for the property yet took out a 2.5 million dollar loan. Outfield Marketing does not even appear to be a company. They have a shack in Denton that they call their headquarters, but if you look up the deed online I think it is worth about $1500. It's literally a shed.

If you look of the address of their head honcho Tom Franks that is registered with the Commonwealth of MA....there is no such street address in Annapolis
3058 NEMON RD
ANNAPOLIS, MD 21403.

Meanwhile he appears to work as a real estate agent there and does not even appear to own the company he works for.
http://www.incredibleagents.com/rea...ealty-07-Main-St/1921067/Thomas-C-Franks.html

This is the former head of Silver Leaf. How much real estate can he be selling in this ecomony?

How does a real estate agent who lays claim to a shed in Denton TX get to control the bulk of $2.5 million dollar loan, much less get one....maybe he and Cliff went to Papa Festiva and used Festiva's assets to secure the loan and paid Festiva off a million bucks leaving them $1.5 to buy the properties in the hopes that Outfield could do enough pumping of points at $3000 a pop to pay things off?

Again, before Sept, it all made sense...banks were loaning, people were buying. Heck, could even put people on planes to get them to rob owners for points...don't hear that happening anymore. They seem to be preying on owners as they visit the resort....that is the owners who are not in deep financial problems of their own and show up at the resort.

It's just a thought, but if it's true, Outfield Marketing is under a heck of a lot of pressure between the loan and the economy to pump those points.


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## ChrisH

*FESTVA  Pubic Offering Statement in MA*

Sorry for the typos:

Festiva Resorts Adventure Club
Commonwealth of MA
Public Offering Statement

Developer of the FSAC is Festival Development Group, LLC, a Nevada limited liability company with a principal address on One Vance Gap Road, Asheville, NX 28805.

The Seller of Club Memberships in MA is *New England Vacation Services, LLC, a MA limited liability company with a principal address of 135 E. Hickory, Denton TX, 76201*.  Pursuant to an Affiliation Agreement between FSAC and NEVS, NEVS has prepared this POS, based upon information provided by FSAC, and is offering Club Memberships for sale in MA for its own account.  

The Club is a multi-state, multi vacation site vacation program featuring …. 

A purchaser does not acquire real property interest in any Festiva resort or other resort property, nor does he or she acquire title to any Unit.  Instead, title to, or the right to use each Unit is  held in the name of InterCIty Escrow Services, as Trustee (the  ‘Trustee’) under the FSAC and related Trust Agreement.  

V. Managing Entities
The operation of the Club is the responsibility of the Association, which is a South Carolina non profit, non stock corporation.  The Members of the Association consist of all owners of Points including the Developer, which is deemed to be the owner of all unsold Points.  The location of the Associations principal place of business is on Vance Corp Rd, Ashville, NC.  
…
The Developer currently controls the Association, and the Developer has the right to retain control of the Association after a majority of Points has been sold.

To assist in its responsibilities, the Association has entered in to the Management agreement with the Manager, Festival Mgt Group, LLC.  A copy of the MGT Agreement is available from the Association upon request.  The Manager, an affiliate of the Developer, and is located at one Vance ….   The Manager was formed on March 24, 2005.  The sole member of the Manager is Festival Hospitality Grp Inc, a Nevada corporation.

New England Vacation Services, LLC, a MA limited liability company with a principal address of 135 E. Hickory, Denton TX, 76201 is the same address as *Outfield Marketing.*


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## ChrisH

*Partial Discharge*

These are 'partial discharges' from the Mortgage Lien for  specific units/weeks.  One is for release of Unit 409 week 9 and the other is for Unit 403 week 9.


Gtor:	NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)

Gtee:	COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtee)


Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-176 * RELEASE OF UNIT 409 Week 9*
Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-181  *Release of UNIT 403 TIME 9*


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## ChrisH

*$1.2 Million Doc is a Quitclaim deed*

Bk-Pg:23138-109   Recorded: 09-04-2008 
Type: Deed  Doc$: 1,200,000.00
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor:	BARTH, VINCENT J (AS ID AS TR &O) (Gtor)
Gtor:	WOODS, ROBERT P (AS ID AS TR &O) (Gtor)
Gtor:	SOUTHCAPE TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor)
Gtor:	ACQUISITIONS INC (&O) (Gtor)
Gtor:	SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (&O) (Gtor)
Gtor:	JEC PROPERTIES INC (&O) (Gtor)
Gtor:	SAND CASTLE NOMINEE TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor)
Gtor:	ROYAL COACHMAN CONDOMINUM TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor)
Gtor:	SAND CASTLE CONDOMINIUM TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor)
Gtee:	NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)

The contents of this document is a quitclaim deed, releasing the following to NEVS from the above Gtors.

Southcape Trust, recorded June 12, 1987, Book 5771, p 278;
Sandcastle Nominee Trust, recorded Feb. 4, 1986, Bk 4911, p 284
Royal Coachman Trust, dated Apr. 9, 1979, BK 2897, p 273
Sandcastle Condo Trust, dated June 21, 1983, BK 3776, p 115

for $1.2 million to *NEVS, LLC 93 Haws Avenue, Hyannis. *Parcel 1  Units of Southcape in Master Deed and Timeshare supplement, July 23, 1982 Bk 3626, p 52, amended Bk 3743, p 281.

Parcel 2 Southcape Units in Master Deed and TS suppl, May 7, 1986, Bk 5937, p64

Parcel 3 Units in Sandcastle Bldg of Master Deed March 22, 1979, Bk 2897, p 242; amended Bk 3052 p 230; Bk 3073, p 308; Bk 3495, p 109.

Parcel 4 Dune Bldg Units, Master Deed June 30, 1983, Bk 3778, p. 78. 

The next pages are individual lists of each building/resort which are included in this deed and released to NEVS, LLC.    They are only the units which were held by the Gtrs.

Again, apologize for any typos, but I have to open each indiv page, copy down the info, and then retype it in.  Cannot cut and paste.  Copies are $1/page!


----------



## ChrisH

*$2.5 million document is the Mortgage on the properties.*

Bk-Pg:23138-185  Recorded: 09-04-2008 Inst #: 46645  
Pages in document: 82
Grp: 1 
Type: Mortgage  Doc$: 2,500,000.00
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT
Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 
Gtor:	NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
Gtee:	COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtee)

The previous document was the QuitClaim deed releasing the said units in each resort to NEVS for $1.2 million. 

This document is the Mortgage between NEVS and Colebrook Financial on those same properties for $2.5 million.
The first several pages (185-196) are the details of the mortgage, subject to insurance of the properties, liens on the properties, defaults, remedies for defaults etc. etc. etc. Typical mortgage stuff.

The next batch of pages (p 197 - 264) listed by resort are the individual units in each resort/building etc. by interval which are included in this mortgage.  It lists the Units/intervals which NEVS obtained in the previous quitclaim deed.  So if you have a deeded week and did not join Festiva, you unit/interval should NOT be listed.

The final pages 265- 266 list any easements related to the properties such as easements for the electric company etc.


----------



## Fig

ChrisH said:


> The Seller of Club Memberships in MA is New England Vacation Services, LLC, a MA limited liability company with a principal address of 135 E. Hickory, Denton TX, 76201.  Pursuant to an Affiliation Agreement between FSAC and NEVS, NEVS has prepared this POS, based upon information provided by FSAC, and is offering Club Memberships for sale in MA for its own account.



Chris, thanks for the detective work!

For the record, here is the value of the shed at 135 E. Hickory that these real estate moguls at NEVS run their operation out of.

http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...tive=on&Year=2009&MinVal=0&MaxVal=&Results=10

Yup, that's right. The glorious headquarters of this huge corporation are worth a whole $1,450. Even two of these headquarters will still fall short of the money Outfield Marketing is asking for a SINGLE Festiva membership conversion.

For a picture of the shack that these guys cite, shift left on street view until you see a white truck. That little white tool shed is the address these guys expect us and the Commonweath of MA to believe they call their primary address. 

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=135+E...otkE&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, ChrisH!*

ChrisH, I can't thank you enough for all the info you've dug up and reproduced here without being able to copy and paste!

The info I've been copying and pasting is to be a guide in complaining to the Massachusetts AG as well as the possibility of filing a class action lawsuit if that's the course of action that we must take.  But first of all we have to get the attention of Southcape and Sandcastle owners who are being scammed out of their deeded weeks!

I found an article about a class action lawsuit against RCI which is very interesting:

[PDF] RCI Hit With Class Action Suits
45k - Adobe PDF - View as HTML
RCI Hit With Class Action Suits. Complaints filed same day allege improper rentals, fraud ... by RCI affiliates. The class action filed in New Jersey. Superior Court, ...www.tstoday.com/members/magazine/issue87/front.pdf

I am currently trying to find the post that gave a link to the Missouri settlement, and trying to locate and help Southcape owners who have been scammed out of their deeded weeks.


----------



## Sou13

*$2.5 million mortgage*

Someone in the front row at the meeting May 16th asked Cliff "capeguitarguy" Hagberg about the $2.5 million mortgage.  Is there anyone reading these posts who can recall his answer?  It wasn't satisfactory IMVHO!

The explanation given for how the Town of Mashpee got possession of the 3rd parcel and the two smaller parcels was that the bank holding the mortgage had failed back in the late 80s and that the FDIC had neglected to pay the taxes.  So now we have a $2.5 mortgage on the NEVS holdings and I can't find any records of any sales in the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds and don't know how NEVS is finding the money to make payments on that $2.5 million mortgage other than scamming owners out of their weeks!


----------



## Carolinian

The whole modus opperendi of some of these American points purveyors was perfected by a number of shady points operations in South Africa some years ago and has since spread to the US, Canary Islands and other places, and yes, the key is conning an owner out of his property for self-printed ''points''.

The South Africa board at the old Crimeshare website, a rather freewheeling discussion board, run behind the scenes by a leader of a major timeshare consumers group, had a lot of discussion on this subject, which is now rather fascinating when we see what is going down in our country.  Because one of the most notorious South African points sharks is now trying to gobble up a well-run independent resort there that has a lot of US owners, I found a timeshare consumer leader in the UK who had saved the Crimeshare South Aftica board and provided it to me.  I edited it to eliminate discussion of problems other than the particular points scam that was threatening the resort in question.

For those who want to see how all of this began, look for the posts with the Crimeshare material in this thread:

www.timeshareforums.com/forums/sout...r-areas/93039-takeover-attempt-dikhololo.html

It makes interesting reading, the similarities are so striking.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you for the link!*



Carolinian said:


> The whole modus opperendi of some of these American points purveyors was perfected by a number of shady points operations in South Africa some years ago and has since spread to the US, Canary Islands and other places, and yes, the key is conning an owner out of his property for self-printed ''points''.
> 
> The South Africa board at the old Crimeshare website, a rather freewheeling discussion board, run behind the scenes by a leader of a major timeshare consumers group, had a lot of discussion on this subject, which is now rather fascinating when we see what is going down in our country.  Because one of the most notorious South African points sharks is now trying to gobble up a well-run independent resort there that has a lot of US owners, I found a timeshare consumer leader in the UK who had saved the Crimeshare South Aftica board and provided it to me.  I edited it to eliminate discussion of problems other than the particular points scam that was threatening the resort in question.
> 
> For those who want to see how all of this began, look for the posts with the Crimeshare material in this thread:
> 
> www.timeshareforums.com/forums/sout...r-areas/93039-takeover-attempt-dikhololo.html
> 
> It makes interesting reading, the similarities are so striking.


I clicked on the link and discovered that a "Refback" was created to this discussion.  The explanation for this is as follows:

"A Refback is also a link. However in this case, Site A (link originator) does not need to "tell" anything to Site B (receptor). Instead, the receptor Site "discovers" this link immediately after the first web visitor gets to the site by clicking on the link. This is done by analyzing information carried by this web visitor's browser referer header."

It looks as though I may have created the Refback by clicking on the link!

For those of you who are wondering whether 28 pages may be too intimidating to first-time visitors to this discussion, consider what happens to all the info contained here when someone goes off in another direction.  By keeping this one current and on topic, we are able to reach more Southcape owners with our informational posts. 

Thank you, Carolinian, for saving those posts and reproducing them in Timeshare Forums!


----------



## Sou13

*Meeting Minutes?*

I've been holding back from attempting to report what was discussed at the owners' meeting May 16th because I didn't want to be accused of posting "untruths" or "misrepresentations" but now that Southcape deeded owners are receiving what are called "meeting minutes" in the mail, it's time to compare our experiences with what's been reported!

These were not "meeting minutes" but rather are a report of what the new trustees want us to believe took place at the meeting.  They weren't signed "Respectfully submitted" because Rosaleen Cassidy is no longer the Clerk and wasn't taking notes when she was trying to explain the financial reports.

I was hoping that the financial reports would be included with the minutes, but since they were not, it looks as though it's up to owners to request them, along with the "minutes" (again, report, not "minutes") of the 2008 meeting which were passed out but not mentioned in the report.

So now that we have the report, let's openly discuss how our perceptions and recollections compare with what the more than 1000 owners who were unable or unwilling to attend the meeting missed, and what they really need to know!


----------



## Sou13

*Let's compare our reports with the agenda*

This isn't a copy and paste, I did it manually in the hope of helping others recall and fill in where my recollection is fuzzy. If you're an owner new to TUG please help me so we'll get different perspectives. Here, then, is the

*AGENDA

Welcome - Cliff Hagberg, NEVMS (12:08 p.m.)
Approval of Minutes from last year's meeting
Financial Report - Rosasleen Cassidy - GM
Management Report - Cliff Hagberg
What we found when we took over management
Delinquent owners
Computer system
Wireless internet
Web site
New resort affiliations
Maintenance update
Exterior Renovations
Interior Renovations
Septic update 
Parking lot
Owner Rentals
Owner's Advisory Committee​Annual Meeting date
Questions and Answers on agenda
Adjournement (Changed to "Recess" by request of owners) (1:50-2:10)
Owner question and answer session*

The reason I'm not reproducing the report here is that every owner should have received one.  The reason I reproduced all the previous reports that I could find was that many owners had never received them and I am trying to get to the bottom of the lack of owner representation on the Board of Trustees.

When Cliff "capeguitarguy" made his entrance onto this discussion he claimed that he wanted to clear up "untruths and misrepresentations" which is why we should have been able to expect the report to be full and accurate.  However, there were many omissions if not outright "untruths" and "misrepresentations" in the report we received.  Every owner who gave an email address at the meeting has been sent a link to this discussion and encouraged to register with TUG.  Now is the time to make yourselves heard!  What omissions and corrections need to be addressed here?


----------



## Sou13

*Southcape owners needed here!*

:deadhorse: 

I know it's Saturday and we're all overwhelmed by the deaths of Farrah Fawcett and Michael Jackson, but I can't keep this "discussion" going without your help!

I've emailed copies of the financial reports to everyone on my "Concerned Southcape Owners and Friends" elist.  Some TUGgers who have posted to this discussion have not replied to my email via TUG which is why you don't have those financial reports and other documents that I've been emailing to Southcape owners.

If you've been to Southcape since this discussion began or if your recollection of what happened at the meeting concurs with or even disagrees with mine, please post a reply.


----------



## w.bob

I received a copy of the minutes yesterday. I did not attend the meeting so I am relying on those of you who were kind enough to attend to help me get this straight in my mind. I remember reading here that some repairs at Southcape may have been performed before the current assessment was levied and those repairs were one of the reasons for the assessment. On the 1st page of these so called Minutes it states "Extensive repairs were found to be necessary. These included: interior and exterior renovations, failed septic systems, and an outdated computer system. Did they go into further discussions regarding the special assessment and what are your thoughts regarding the need for the assessment? I have made 2 payments totaling $200.00 towards the assessement. I have not been to the area for a number of years so I am not familiar with the condition of the place and I realize that there will always be updates needed and maintainence issues. I have heard that a number of repairs have been made and I ws wondering how the place is looking.


----------



## ClamsCasino

*"Improvements"*

I stopped by the resort over the weekend to see the "improvements". 
The noticeable items were newly painted units 1-31, a painted indoor pool, a few pieces of new exercise equipment, and a paved patio area.
To my knowledge, there is still no wireless internet access for resort guests, no new phone system, and no new website - some of the things that were promised as part of the Special Assessment.  Mr. Hagberg had also promised months ago on this board (and felt it was a good low cost idea that could be started right away) to upgrade the children's play area which is still an eyesore and unsafe. They were going to do something immediately - but nothing has been done there either.  There are still small flags in the ground everywhere identifying TV/Cable lines - overall IMO the resort is not showing improvements to perspective owners or current guests - and July 1st is this week!


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you for your replies!*

Thank you for your replies, w.bob and ClamsCasino!  You are two of the unrepresented 1000+ owners who are relying on those of us who were able to attend the meeting for an accurate accounting of what actually took place!

There are more than 25 owners who could be posting additions and corrections to these so-called "minutes" and the longer it gets postponed, the less likely it is for the truth to come out.

I've been trying to contact Rosaleen via email and my message has twice been returned undeliverable because the mailbox is full.  So much for emailing rcassidy@southcaperesort.com!


----------



## SCapeOwnersRUS

*More Trouble May Be UPON US BY YEAR END...*

Heard from a source who heard from a source who heard......... etc etc etc
that by year end there may be more fees in store and assessed by the triage of (NEVS Festiva and Outfield) aka " The Trustees?"....

Seems that sales and conversions to points have not been going quite as well as they had hoped so the rumour is in an attempt to force some folks hand they will pass more assessments...

When does the Attorney General step in???????


----------



## Sou13

SCapeOwnersRUS said:


> Heard from a source who heard from a source who heard......... etc etc etc
> that by year end there may be more fees in store and assessed by the triage of (NEVS Festiva and Outfield) aka " The Trustees?"....
> 
> Seems that sales and conversions to points have not been going quite as well as they had hoped so the rumour is in an attempt to force some folks hand they will pass more assessments...
> 
> When does the Attorney General step in???????


Perhaps we should not be waiting for the AG to step in.  This may be a civil matter.

Here's a message from an Equivest owner:

_I understand your concern regarding the desire to resist takeover by Festiva.  I am a member of the Equivest/Peppertree Vacation Club Advisory Committee and have had the opportunity to talk to Festiva Management.  I have just two observations.

Nobody is holding a gun to your head to make the property convert to Festiva - it must be either a Board of Directors or membership decision.  Sounds to me like a minority are trying to fight it.  If it is the result of them 'populating' the BofD, that is a result of apathy on the part of owners not wanting to serve and allowing outsiders to 'sneak' in across time.

Once, and IF, they assume management control, you cannot use the word 'coerce' to address their encouragement to convert to Festiva's Adventure Club.  What you need to learn is the word "NO!!!".  They cannot MAKE you convert - they will try to sell you and sell you hard,  They may mislead, quote irroneous information, and browbeat you, but they cannot MAKE you convert.  I didn't convert and neither have about 5,300 other Equivest members.  We have the right to say no.

Richard_​
I've been searching for the PDF of the Festiva AVC Order and have finally found someone kind enough to provide it.  If the link works, you can read for yourselves what the AG was able to do for unhappy Festiva converts.  I'm not happy with the settlement!  Not a 100% refund, and the weeks are deeded back to Festiva!


----------



## JackB62

*AG complaints and Civil Matter*

OK Southcape owners, it's time to get to work!

I've been keeping in touch off line, but it's time to go public on a couple of issues.

1. The AG will do nothing unless more of us complain in writing. While many are "lurking" on the boards, few letters have been filed. This is the type of thing NEVS counts on...little action from you.

2. Civil action. It may be time for many of us to initiate a class action. A couple of lawyers I've spoken with are very interested. We have been wronged and the damage liability is going to be attractive to many attorneys.
However, we'll need some "upfront" money. Lawyers in this type of action do not work like accident and insurance attorneys where they get paid at the end.

Would you like to have your car stolen? Do you want to pay someone to take your car? These are the options we've been given.

Let's get rid of NEVS. They aren't managing the resort. They are stealing it from us.

Those who are in on the e-mail system please respond to Sou13. Those who haven't, get on board now. We are getting ready to organize a legal action.
Those who get involved early get compensated at a higher rate than the rest of the class. I don't care about the compensation myself...I just don't like having anything stolen from me.


----------



## Sou13

*Festiva AVC Order*



Sou13 said:


> I've been searching for the PDF of the Festiva AVC Order and have finally found someone kind enough to provide it.  If the link works, you can read for yourselves what the AG was able to do for unhappy Festiva converts.  I'm not happy with the settlement!  Not a 100% refund, and the weeks are deeded back to Festiva!


Just as I feared, that link cannot be accessed by anyone other than members of the Equivest-PeppertreeOwners Yahoo!group.  I'll have to copy it an send it as an email attachment.  Will get to that ASAP which is NOW!


----------



## CIC3

*Owner Advisory Committee*

I agree. We need to start taking action, especially writing to the Mass. Attorney General's office.  I know the Annual Owners Meeting Report from Southcape mentions that an Owner Advisory Committee will be formed later this year, but I think we need to start pushing for that committee formation ASAP.  The meeting report letter also mentions that "at the end of the Q&A period, some owners were nominated by other owners for positions on the Advisory Board. All names were noted." Does anyone have or know of the owners who were nominated? Does anyone know if we have to wait for elections or can these folks start holding informal meetings or make email contact with owners now?


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## JackB62

*I posted this on the Sandcastle thread*

I posted this to the Sandcastle thread and thought I'd do the same here:

Thanks for responding and wanting to complain to the AG.

We need more people to do so until we reach a critical mass.

The wording of your complaint isn't nearly as important as the number
of complainants.

Send to:

Martha Coakley
Attorney General
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
One Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108


----------



## Sou13

*File a Consumer Complaint*

At the risk of having a duplicate post deleted by a TUG moderator I am reposting this:

*File a Consumer Complaint*

*Before Filing a Complaint*

The Attorney General’s Public Inquiry & Assistance Center Hotline, (617) 727-8400, is staffed with trained professionals who will review your complaint and determine whether it is appropriate for a free, voluntary mediation service we provide, or whether to direct you to another government agency or other resource.  If the complaint is one we believe we may be able to assist you with, the Hotline staff will contact you before they attempt to contact the business or other organization on your behalf to see if the matter can be resolved outside of court.

Please note that in order to expedite the processing and resolution of your complaint, we may refer it to a Local Consumer Program that serves your area.  These programs are funded by and work in connection with our office, providing the same free, voluntary mediation services. 

The AGO cannot provide legal advice to consumers.  If you have questions concerning the specific application or interpretation of the law, we will suggest that you consult a private attorney.  If you do not have an attorney we will provide information that may assist you in locating an attorney.

Before filing a complaint, please review the other consumer protection pages on this website for information that may help you to decide whether to file a complaint with the Attorney General’s Office or use other resources that may be more appropriate for your situation.  

*File a Consumer Complaint*

To file a complaint, review the instructions below for filing by mail and filing electronically, and download and complete the Consumer Complaint Form:

Consumer Complaint Form (Fillable PDF)

Please note: if you need to attach additional documentation to your complaint, you must send these by regular mail rather than electronically.  For security reasons, additional email attachments will not be opened.

File by Mail

To file your complaint via regular mail, you may complete the form and click the “Print Form” button on the bottom of the second page; or print out a blank copy by clicking the “Print Form” button on the bottom of the second page of the form and complete it by hand.

Send your paper complaint to:

PublicInquiry & Assistance Center
Attorney General’s Office
One Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108

File Electronically
You must have Adobe Reader Version 7 or higher installed on your computer to access the form.  This program is available to download for free on the Adobe website. 

If you use a Web-based email system, rather than an email software client (such as Microsoft Outlook, Outlook Express, or Mozilla Thunderbird), please see below for additional information about filing electronically.  To file this form via email, please make note of the following instructions:

If you typically use your installed email software client to send messages, fill out the form online and click on “Submit by Email.” Your email software will automatically open, addressed to emailcomplaints@state.ma.us, with your complaint attached to the message as an .xml file. Send the email to complete the filing of your Consumer Complaint.
If you typically use a Web-based email tool (such as Gmail, Yahoo, or Hotmail), fill out the form online and click on “Submit by Email.” Your email software will automatically open, addressed to emailcomplaints@state.ma.us, with your complaint attached as an.xml file. Before you close out of the email software, you will need to save the .xml file attachment to a folder on your computer. Once the document has been properly saved, you may open your Web-based email account and re-attach the .xml file. Please send your email message with the attachment to emailcomplaints@state.ma.us.


The biggest problem for me is deciding how to get the AG's attention.  I have personally experienced the deceptive sales practices used by Outfield Marketing but my biggest complaint is with New England Vacation Services and the illegally assessed special assessment as well as denial of owners' rights to a copy of the owners' list and denial of the right to elect owners to the Board of Trustees, to name the most obvious violations of owners' rights.


----------



## Sou13

*Complaints to the Federal Trade Commission*

There are two ways to complain to the Federal Trade Commission.  Here's the link to the electronic complaint form:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

You can also complain by telephone:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/general/gen06.pdf

Here's a helpful pdf. about timeshares:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/homes/rea15.pdf

Since our complaints include companies operating out of many different states, the FTC needs to be aware of these complaints:

Outfield Marketing (TX) is contracted by Festiva Resorts (NC) to contact owners of deeded intervals using the devious excuse of "explaining the changes" at a resort.  Since owners live all over the U.S. and beyond, these sales reps are not necessarily licensed to do business in these owners' states.  They enter the premises of deeded owners and proceed to make a case for converting those deeds to membership in the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club (SC).  Many of these owners are elderly and haven't been using their weeks but are still liable for maintenance fees.  If the Outfield Marketing sales rep is successful, the deeded week owner will be signing a contract which turns the week over to InterCity Escrow Services (CA) without being notarized or even reviewed (no physical copy) by the owner.

Upon review of the pdf. file of the Missouri "Assurance of Voluntary Compliance" which I have emailed to everyone on my "Concerned Southcape Owners and Friends" elist, I have come to the conclusion that the Missouri complaints were against Festiva Resorts, not Festiva Resorts Adventure Club.  The complaint was that Festiva used deceptive sales practices in selling timeshares.  Our situation is different because now we are being told that we will be subject to ever-increasing special assessments if we do not choose to convert our deeds to "points" membership in the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club.

Outfield Marketing is not licensed to do business in Massachusetts where Southcape Resort and The Sandcastle Resort are located.  Nor is it licensed to do business in my home state, but because I met with Greg Hughes in Southcape Unit 32 that doesn't apply to me.

There are more reasons to complain posted at Festiva takes over resort

We're experiencing an electrical storm here and I might lose this post if I don't submit it now.  I will be unable to post over the weekend, so if I don't get to post anything more until Monday, please have a safe and sane 4th of July weekend!


----------



## Sou13

*Nevmsllc*

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82489&goto=newpost

Now Cliff "capeguitarguy" is trying to convince Sandcastle owners that he's on their side.  Do you believe it?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hey Sou

All I did was offer to answer their questions, not try to convince anyone of anything.  Go and read it for yourselves.


----------



## vivmarch

I have just returned from a great week at Southcape  (even though the weather didn't always cooperate!) and discovered this site. 

What are you all going on about?? 

I have been staying at Southcape for the last nine years and this year noticed that the place was in a much better condition than it has been in all those years. And I understand from the staff that there are some further upgrades still in progress.  I think it's great as any improvements to Southcape protect my initial investment.  I've seen several timeshare resorts in other parts of the country that have been allowed to fall into disrepair and I would be very upset if I owned one of them!

So what's going on?


----------



## ClamsCasino

*Southcape*

Cliff - good to see you back.  How are the upgrades to the play area going that you promised?  Is the new website almost ready - phone system, wireless internet - where do things stand?


----------



## Fig

vivmarch said:


> I have just returned from a great week at Southcape  (even though the weather didn't always cooperate!) and discovered this site.
> 
> What are you all going on about??
> 
> I have been staying at Southcape for the last nine years and this year noticed that the place was in a much better condition than it has been in all those years. And I understand from the staff that there are some further upgrades still in progress.  I think it's great as any improvements to Southcape protect my initial investment.  I've seen several timeshare resorts in other parts of the country that have been allowed to fall into disrepair and I would be very upset if I owned one of them!
> 
> So what's going on?



hmmm....so you returned from a good stay and felt compelled to go to the internet and seek out this site and post out of the blue and you haven't posted to Tug in the nine years you owned? You know nothing about Outfield Marketing...have never been approached by them? If you are truly an owner, perhaps you should do some reading before posting...you will see in detail what is going on.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hi Clams

The decision on the playground has been to wait until after the summer as it's getting a lot of use at the moment.

Wireless internet is available throughout the resort but we've been having some Comcast issues that they're still working on. They've promised us to have their work finished by next week.

The new Southcape website is just about finished.  I'm pushing them to get it done finally.  The Sandcastle site is up, although not complete and we'll be adding information to it regularly.  The address is www.sandcastlecapecod.com.

On the phone system, we've been able to save some money by doing some upgrades since they've recommended not to replace the entire system as yet.

The work continues!

Cliff


----------



## vivmarch

Fig said:


> hmmm....so you returned from a good stay and felt compelled to go to the internet and seek out this site and post out of the blue and you haven't posted to Tug in the nine years you owned? You know nothing about Outfield Marketing...have never been approached by them? If you are truly an owner, perhaps you should do some reading before posting...you will see in detail what is going on.



The woman in the unit next to mine suggested I check out this site - I'd never heard of it before!  

And I haven't been approached by Outfield Marketing, but thank you so much for your kind suggestion that I do some reading.


----------



## Fig

vivmarch said:


> The woman in the unit next to mine suggested I check out this site - I'd never heard of it before!
> 
> And I haven't been approached by Outfield Marketing, but thank you so much for your kind suggestion that I do some reading.



Viv...you seem to be posting at the same exact time that Cliff Hagberg is on....you might want to vary those times a bit....you know credibility and all


----------



## vivmarch

Fig said:


> Viv...you seem to be posting at the same exact time that Cliff Hagberg is on....you might want to vary those times a bit....you know credibility and all



I have no idea what you are talking about.  However I would point out that I am posting at the same time YOU ARE!


----------



## Fig

vivmarch said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about.  However I would point out that I am posting at the same time YOU ARE!



Wow, Viv....it took me a while as a newbie to figure out how to qoute a post...I still screw up every now and then and the box does not show...and here you are doing it flawlessly your first visit to the board. You seem pretty board savy for someone who just ventured onto the site.


----------



## vivmarch

Fig said:


> Wow, Viv....it took me a while as a newbie to figure out how to qoute a post...I still screw up every now and then and the box does not show...and here you are doing it flawlessly your first visit to the board. You seem pretty board savy for someone who just ventured onto the site.



Well thank you.  

But I work with computers a lot so they are not a mystery to me, and I find this site pretty simple.


----------



## Sou13

*Are you a Concerned Southcape Interval Owner?*

Qoute:
Originally posted by *vivmarch*
_I have just returned from a great week at Southcape (even though the weather didn't always cooperate!) and discovered this site. 

What are you all going on about?? 

I have been staying at Southcape for the last nine years and this year noticed that the place was in a much better condition than it has been in all those years. And I understand from the staff that there are some further upgrades still in progress. I think it's great as any improvements to Southcape protect my initial investment. I've seen several timeshare resorts in other parts of the country that have been allowed to fall into disrepair and I would be very upset if I owned one of them!

So what's going on?_​I have a few questions for you:

1.  Are you a concerned Southcape Interval Owner?

2.  How did you happen to discover this site upon your return?  Please elaborate!

3.  Have you paid your nearly $1000 in MF and SA for 2009 in full or are you an exchange from another resort?​
That's all for now.  Come back soon!


----------



## JackB62

*See the last pages of the Sandcastle thread*

and decide if the NEVS, Outfield, Festiva triumvirate is what you want managing your resort.

Cliff Hagberg is treading the line so closely that even he should be embarassed by what a slick a.s..o.e he sounds like. 

Please crawl back into your hole and let Barth and Woods abuse us.


----------



## vivmarch

*answers to your questions*



Sou13 said:


> Qoute:
> Originally posted by *vivmarch*
> _I have just returned from a great week at Southcape (even though the weather didn't always cooperate!) and discovered this site.
> 
> What are you all going on about??
> 
> I have been staying at Southcape for the last nine years and this year noticed that the place was in a much better condition than it has been in all those years. And I understand from the staff that there are some further upgrades still in progress. I think it's great as any improvements to Southcape protect my initial investment. I've seen several timeshare resorts in other parts of the country that have been allowed to fall into disrepair and I would be very upset if I owned one of them!
> 
> So what's going on?_​I have a few questions for you:
> 
> 1.  Are you a concerned Southcape Interval Owner?
> 
> 2.  How did you happen to discover this site upon your return?  Please elaborate!
> 
> 3.  Have you paid your nearly $1000 in MF and SA for 2009 in full or are you an exchange from another resort?​
> That's all for now.  Come back soon!





Answers to your question:
1.  Owner
2.  Site suggested by another owner 
3.  Yes


----------



## tombo

What an unusual 2 days. Yesterday on the Sandcastle thread a first time poster said that they didn't want management giving out their personal information to other owners and ended their first post with an emphatic message saying that Mgt should take note. No one on that whole thread had ever said that they didn't want other owners to get their information and here it comes from a first time poster. Even more amazing the first time poster has talked to other owners who agree. This just happens to bolster NEVMS'S position that they can't give out the owners list to other owners because owners like this first time poster would be upset. I point out that it might be a shill post and get scolded by Cliff. Hmmm, it sure seems funny.

Now on this thread on the following day there is a glowing review from ANOTHER first time poster who is wondering what everyone is upset about. This person is glad that the resort is being upgraded to "protect their investment". They have paid the $1000 assessment and are looking forward to more upgrades which will of course be accompanied by more assessments. This woman stayed a week at the resort and wasn't approached at all by Outfield. She happens to talk to someone at the resort who happens tells her about this web site. She decides to become a guest, log in, and heap praise on the mgt for upgrading for the good of all. She can respond to quotes like a pro after only three posts. Wow the coincidences keep coming.

Within a week we should have a first time poster talking about how buying from Outfield was the best thing they have ever done and they will be putting Cliff in their will since he is the most honest person they have met in their whole entire life. They will be thrilled to have paid $3000 to give up a week they owned for some wonderful points. These people will also be excited about some magic beans they got in exchange for $3000 and another week they used to own.  Before you know it first time posters who are in total agreement with Cliff will outnumber the people who have been posting here for a long time.


----------



## bhound54

*Another side*

Hello Southcape Friends,

I've been watching the Southcape threads on this BBS since my wife and I returned from the Southcape annual meeting (where I told Cliff that he was starting to look like a pincushion).  We own two weeks (Unit #6, Weeks 34-35) and have been owners for 25 years.  We have never traded out Southcape weeks.

Just a few thoughts:

1.  We did entertain a visit from an Outfield representative.  Yes, the presentation was misleading but he was cordial.  When he failed to make the case for converting our ownership to points, we sent him on his way to his next "victim". 

2.  The sad truth is that Southcape Owners probably have not paid the amount necessary to maintain and upgrade the resort so a rise in the the maintenance fee and a special assessment was probably inevitable.  I'm not happy about it but don't blame current management for the situation.  In the meanwhile, I have been happy to have use of the funds that more realistic maintenance fee would have cost.

3.  Rosaleen is a magician with respect to managing the resort with limited funds.  We have been lucky to have her around.

4.  The septic system and the suit over parking lot are real, substantial issues.  I applaud Cliff for his handling of these two items.

5.  If someone else has been wronged and wants to pursue a class action or contact the AG, more power to you.  Folks that drank the Outfield "Kool-Aid" may fall into that category.  However, my limited understanding of the law is that you need to have a harm to successfully pursue civil actions.  My wife and I don't feel harmed by Outfield or the current resort management so we plan to sit on the sidelines.  

6.  My number one complaint about the resort is the lack of internet access.  We'll see if Cliff and Rosaleen deliver when our two weeks come up.

Best wishes,

Bhound54


----------



## tombo

I wonder what is harder, convincing owners to give up the good weeks that they own and pay $3000 for worthless points, or thinking up new screen names for all of the "new happy owners" that are suddenly posting everywhere. You do have to give them credit for trying every crooked angle they can to have some positive feedback. Until this new posting campaign started you could not find a single positive post about Outfield or Festiva on any website. Suddenly new happy people who have never posted on TUG are popping up every day. I was born one day, just not yesterday.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

bhound54 said:


> Hello Southcape Friends,
> 
> I've been watching the Southcape threads on this BBS since my wife and I returned from the Southcape annual meeting (where I told Cliff that he was starting to look like a pincushion).  We own two weeks (Unit #6, Weeks 34-35) and have been owners for 25 years.  We have never traded out Southcape weeks.
> 
> Just a few thoughts:
> 
> 1.  We did entertain a visit from an Outfield representative.  Yes, the presentation was misleading but he was cordial.  When he failed to make the case for converting our ownership to points, we sent him on his way to his next "victim".
> 
> 2.  The sad truth is that Southcape Owners probably have not paid the amount necessary to maintain and upgrade the resort so a rise in the the maintenance fee and a special assessment was probably inevitable.  I'm not happy about it but don't blame current management for the situation.  In the meanwhile, I have been happy to have use of the funds that more realistic maintenance fee would have cost.
> 
> 3.  Rosaleen is a magician with respect to managing the resort with limited funds.  We have been lucky to have her around.
> 
> 4.  The septic system and the suit over parking lot are real, substantial issues.  I applaud Cliff for his handling of these two items.
> 
> 5.  If someone else has been wronged and wants to pursue a class action or contact the AG, more power to you.  Folks that drank the Outfield "Kool-Aid" may fall into that category.  However, my limited understanding of the law is that you need to have a harm to successfully pursue civil actions.  My wife and I don't feel harmed by Outfield or the current resort management so we plan to sit on the sidelines.
> 
> 6.  My number one complaint about the resort is the lack of internet access.  We'll see if Cliff and Rosaleen deliver when our two weeks come up.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Bhound54



Hi Bhound54

Welcome to the discussion and just ignore Tombo.  He's not an owner and he's posted almost 1,500 times all over TUG on just about every board!

The wireless internet has been installed.  We've had some issues with Comcast upgrading their system and our IT guy has been in the hospital and is expected to return this weekend to complete the installation.  Hopefully, we'll have everything worked out by the time you arrive for your vacation.

Cliff


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Tombo, if you had been at the annual meeting where this was discussed at length, you would have seen that almost all of the owners at the meeting didn't want their information released to anyone.  Several threatened to sue the resort if their information was released.  Just FYI


----------



## mweinberg

NEVMSLLC said:


> Tombo, if you had been at the annual meeting where this was discussed at length, you would have seen that almost all of the owners at the meeting didn't want their information released to anyone.  Several threatened to sue the resort if their information was released.  Just FYI



Perhaps you could contact owners and give them an opportunity to have their contact information redacted from the list before it is shared.  That might satisfy everyone, including Massachusetts state law.


----------



## wfweinstein

tombo said:


> I wonder what is harder, convincing owners to give up the good weeks that they own and pay $3000 for worthless points, or thinking up new screen names for all of the "new happy owners" that are suddenly posting everywhere. You do have to give them credit for trying every crooked angle they can to have some positive feedback. Until this new posting campaign started you could not find a single positive post about Outfield or Festiva on any website. Suddenly new happy people who have never posted on TUG are popping up every day. I was born one day, just not yesterday.



I'm surprised anyone new is brave enough to post since when they do all they get is abuse from "regulars" who seem to think they own this forum!


----------



## tombo

wfweinstein said:


> I'm surprised anyone new is brave enough to post since when they do all they get is abuse from "regulars" who seem to think they own this forum!



Another first time posting guest, welcome. Not being abusive at all, just questioning where all of the sudden happy owners have come from, how they all suddenly found this site in a 3 day period, and why all of the first time guest posters are happy with the mgt and the way things are going. Not a single negative post from a new person in 3 days when we rarely had a positive post about the direction the resort was heading in 9 months. The coincidences are overwhelming and hard to ignore..

On your first post you already know how to respond to quotes like a "regular". It usually takes people a while to learn. Congrats on beating the learning curve by a mile.

On your first post you are already knowledgable about what regulars do. You would usually have to follow a thread for a while to figure out what "regulars" do. Once again kudos for getting up to speed so quickly. 

The main purpose of this thread is protecting owners from NEVS and their overcharging of MF's, assessments, etc., to educate owners so they can protect themselves, and to save people from being ripped off by Outfield and Festiva. If you read back through all of these posts you will realize that. 

I find it hard to believe that one would join a thread that started in 2008 which has over 700 posts to read which are about all sorts of serious issues facing owners at these resorts, and the first thing one can find that is worth posting about is the "regulars" who think they own this forum. That is absolutelly the best. Cliff, come on you can do better. 

Of course all of the new happy campers could be because the word is getting out about TUG. Most seem to be hearing about TUG while they are at the resort. TUGGERS please tell everyone you see at the owners meeting and by the pool about TUG so we can continue to grow. Please ask them to join and not just post as a guest since joining is money well spent and membership does lend more legitimacy to their posts. 

I am surprised that so many are hearing about TUG at the resort since this site is something that Outfield, Festiva, and NEVS do not want publicized. It would be almost impossible to sell a points conversion if all the owners read this forum and became educated. However since Cliff loves all of the recent new postitive posts here perhaps the TUG website could be listed in the owner's newsletter and perhaps he would put a sign at the front desk and on the bulletin board to invite all of Sandcastle and Southscape's owners to join us here. It is a great place for Cliff to answer owner's questions and address concerns as he has done in the past. Cliff, send the TUG web site out in the next newsletter and let all of the owners participate with their good and bad experiences. How about it Cliff? You game?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hey Tombo

I've been a member of TUG off and on since the early 90's.  I know the people who started TUG personally and I've been a strong believer in it for a very long time.

Seeing the abuse you and others heap on anyone new posting on this thread I can't possibly recommend it unless and until you and others act a little more politely to people who have opposing viewpoints.  It seems to me that most, if not all of them are actual owners and have visited the resort recently.  Something you haven't done.

As I've said before, I don't need anyone to defend me, I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself.  I'm shocked that you are surprised that, out of thousands of owners, there might be a few that actually understand what we're all trying to accomplish at the resorts and might actually support what's going on.  I fully realize that there will always be people who oppose anything we try to do and I have no problem with that.  I just want to encourage everyone to participate here whether they agree with me or not.

I don't need TUG to communicate with the owners, I communicate with them every day and I'm hearing very different things than what's being posted on here by people who aren't even owners.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

FYI, I remember a guy named massman or something like that who posted once on here a couple of months ago.  You and a couple of others were so incredibly rude and abusive to him, no one's seem him since and I frankly don't blame him.

If he still reads this thread, why don't you invite him to post again.  Perhaps a heart felt apology from you might help make him feel that we want to hear what he has to say.  Or don't you want to hear from people that don't agree with you?

By the way, he said he was an owner and you non-owners chased him away.  Thanks a lot.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> FYI, I remember a guy named massman or something like that who posted once on here a couple of months ago.  You and a couple of others were so incredibly rude and abusive to him, no one's seem him since and I frankly don't blame him.
> 
> If he still reads this thread, why don't you invite him to post again.  Perhaps a heart felt apology from you might help make him feel that we want to hear what he has to say.  Or don't you want to hear from people that don't agree with you?
> 
> By the way, he said he was an owner and you non-owners chased him away.  Thanks a lot.



Is massman related to capeguitarguy?

If you really want owners here, invite them to join us in your newsletter. If you were really worried about owners being abused you wouldn't send outfield their names and addresses so the salesmen can verbally assault them for hours until they convert a perfectly good week they own into points which are virtually worthless.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> Hey Tombo
> 
> I've been a member of TUG off and on since the early 90's.  I know the people who started TUG personally and I've been a strong believer in it for a very long time.
> 
> Seeing the abuse you and others heap on anyone new posting on this thread I can't possibly recommend it unless and until you and others act a little more politely to people who have opposing viewpoints.  It seems to me that most, if not all of them are actual owners and have visited the resort recently.  Something you haven't done.
> 
> As I've said before, I don't need anyone to defend me, I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself.  I'm shocked that you are surprised that, out of thousands of owners, there might be a few that actually understand what we're all trying to accomplish at the resorts and might actually support what's going on.  I fully realize that there will always be people who oppose anything we try to do and I have no problem with that.  I just want to encourage everyone to participate here whether they agree with me or not.
> 
> I don't need TUG to communicate with the owners, I communicate with them every day and I'm hearing very different things than what's being posted on here by people who aren't even owners.



As far as allowing TUG to be posted in the lobby and sent in the newsletter, I take this as a no.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sorry Tombo

I take it from your posts that you will continue to abuse Southcape owners who don't agree with you.  I still don't understand why you don't want the Southcape thread to be used by Southcape owners.  Let us have a dialog and stay out of it since it doesn't concern you.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> Sorry Tombo
> 
> I take it from your posts that you will continue to abuse Southcape owners who don't agree with you.  I still don't understand why you don't want the Southcape thread to be used by Southcape owners.  Let us have a dialog and stay out of it since it doesn't concern you.



When you no longer offer Festiva points at your resort, and when you no longer use outfield Mktg for sales, then I will no longer post anything else here. 

We know Festiva, we know what they do to resorts and owners with their upgrades, assessments, increased MF's, and total control of the board taking all rights from owners and placing themselves as the only choice for the resort's mgt company. We will not stand by and let people get ripped off by Festiva and/or Outfield, we will post warnings to all who will listen. 

You chose those horrible companies to do business with, and as long as you continue to do business with them we will continue to tell others what they have done and are doing at other resorts including one of mine.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Sorry Tombo
> 
> I take it from your posts that you will continue to abuse Southcape owners who don't agree with you.  I still don't understand why you don't want the Southcape thread to be used by Southcape owners.  Let us have a dialog and stay out of it since it doesn't concern you.



Cliff,

If you want a private forum for Southcape owners, that should be a fairly easy thing to add to the existing Southcape website. This is public forum, and is designed to be used by timeshare owners to communicate with other timeshare owners. Forums are not limited to only owners at/in a particular resort or system. It benefits owners to hear the opinions and experiences of  owners at other resorts regarding issues of HOA governance. That is what TUG is all about.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Cliff,
> 
> If you want a private forum for Southcape owners, that should be a fairly easy thing to add to the existing Southcape website. This is public forum, and is designed to be used by timeshare owners to communicate with other timeshare owners. Forums are not limited to only owners at/in a particular resort or system. It benefits owners to hear the opinions and experiences of  owners at other resorts regarding issues of HOA governance. That is what TUG is all about.



Cliff does not actually want an owners forum, if he did it would be easy to do as you said. Simply let every owner register with a password and post the site in the newsletter and at the resort. If one or two unhappy owners from TUG got access to ALL of the Southscape owners by way of an owners only forum initiated by Cliff, he would have a riot on his hands. I would love to be able to read the posts on that forum even though I couldn't contribute since I am not an owner. Heck I would pay to join that forum.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

The problem is, Eric, that when Southcape owners do come and and try to post they get flamed by Tombo and others and I don't like it.  I want to hear from everyone.  Unfortunately, what I see here is people like Tombo who, most of the time, doesn't know what he's talking about.  I fully realize that Tombo has a right to air his paranoid fantasies and i don't have a problem with that.  Most of the time it's kind of amusing.  What I do object to is his (and others) rude and abusive behavior to people who don't agree with him.  He has an absolute right to respectfully disagree with people but that's not what he does.  Read his posts.  I find them to be embarrassing.

FYI, we are planning a private owner's area on both the Southcape and Sandcastle websites.  I think it's important even though you and Tombo wouldn't be able to participate.


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> The problem is, Eric, that when Southcape owners do come and and try to post they get flamed by Tombo and others and I don't like it.  I want to hear from everyone.  Unfortunately, what I see here is people like Tombo who, most of the time, doesn't know what he's talking about.  I fully realize that Tombo has a right to air his paranoid fantasies and i don't have a problem with that.  Most of the time it's kind of amusing.  What I do object to is his (and others) rude and abusive behavior to people who don't agree with him.  He has an absolute right to respectfully disagree with people but that's not what he does.  Read his posts.  I find them to be embarrassing.
> 
> FYI, we are planning a private owner's area on both the Southcape and Sandcastle websites.  I think it's important even though you and Tombo wouldn't be able to participate.



Don't be embarassed for me, be embarassed for yourself. You have been caught in many false statements here.

You post that you don't do business with Outfield and then you post that you and Outfield jointly own NEVS which makes you business partners. In fact in one post you state that for you to do business with Outfiled would be innapropriate. Then we find out that you and outfield are business partners which means that you have to be doing something you yourself described as inappropriate. That should be embarassing.

You state that Outfield doesn't have it's office in Texas where FIG said it was located, but then it is shown that the Texas address FIG posted is the exact same address filed with the state by you and Outfield.After he pasted the address straight from your statement to the State Secretary you had no more comments.  Kind of embarassing huh?

You act like you are on top of lies made by Outfield and you are handling it, yet the same people who have trained all of the sales people you fired are still training the new hires. Could those guys actually have been fired due to lack of sales rather than lack of ethics? If you want to fix it get rid of the top guys like Steve who has been specifically noted by several on the web as the guy who came to their homes and told them lies. You still post here that you are not going to stand for poor sales behavior as you still use the same company and trainers that have caused you problems in the past. I would be embarassed to keep defending outfield's actions.

I could go on but the major embarassment I would feel if I was you is when you acted offended that myself and others feel that you might be posting a lot of the new guest spots yourself (or having others do it). You indignantly proclaimed that you don't have to hide behind fake names. Then I showed you where you joined SOU13's group under the fake name of capeguitarguy which you denied when confronted on this forum. Then capeguitarguy is shown to absolutelly be you. That has to be embarassing and I assume it bothers you since out of all of the responses you have made rebutting me, you made none about that after I linked the specific posts where you denied that capeguitarguy was you, and the posts where it was proven to be you.

If you aren't embarassed by these and other statements you have told that weren't true, then I understand why you aren't embarassed to be doing business with Outfield and Festiva.


----------



## london

*This Thread Has Run Its Course*

I think this thread has run its course, why because now it is constantly personal attacks from one poster to the others.

Probably only a very small percentage of owners at Sandcastle, even go on this board.

Most likely, many Tuggers are following it, just to see who attacks who in the next post.

Give me a break..........


----------



## tombo

london said:


> I think this thread has run its course, why because now it is constantly personal attacks from one poster to the others.
> 
> Probably only a very small percentage of owners at Sandcastle, even go on this board.
> 
> Most likely, many Tuggers are following it, just to see who attacks who in the next post.
> 
> Give me a break..........



Why shut the thread? If someone doesn't like the direction it has taken then they can simply not read it anymore.


----------



## Sou13

*I take issue with that!*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Sorry Tombo
> 
> I take it from your posts that you will continue to abuse Southcape owners who don't agree with you.  I still don't understand why you don't want the Southcape thread to be used by Southcape owners.  Let us have a dialog and stay out of it since it doesn't concern you.


Excuse me, but this discussion was started in 2008 by a non-owner who wanted info about Southcape Resort.  When he found out about the points conversion campaign or whatever you want to call it he decided against buying a week.

Now comes Cliff "capeguitarguy" Hagberg trying to chase away anyone who knows anything about Festiva and Outfield Marketing and Cliff "capeguitarguy" Hagberg and he has the audacity to try to chase them off this discussion board!

I was so gratified to see so many posts to the Sandcastle discussion that I could let his suggestion that I didn't belong there because I'm not an owner slide.  The truth is that I wish I were not a Southcape owner since NEVS took over and I'm not alone.  I missed my opportunity to get out before forking over one cent in 2009 because we were all so satisfied with our previous situation that we never even bothered to find out how to get out while the getting was good!

Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.  I'm hearing from owners who want my advice and all I can do is tell them what happened and is happening to me.  I was able to use 3 days of my 3/4 split because I had asked for a payment plan for the special assessment and didn't object to $100 a month.  That meant that I would be able to stay in my reserved unit over the Memorial Day weekend.

While I was at Southcape I learned from another long-time float week owner that he was paying only $50 a month, so I reasoned that I should really be paid up until August 1.  But when I notified the resort that I was withholding further payments because the work for which the payments were going was not being done and nearly 1/2 of it might be unnecessary at this time, I got notified by Cliff "capeguitarguy" Hagberg that I would be unable to use my reserved time unless I had paid in full.

It gets worse.  Another red week owner wants to bring me to Southcape to go over the books so that I can satisfy myself that the money I'm expected to fork over to Southcape for what may be a worthless float week is indeed being spent on necessary repairs to the resort *and not for repairs to Sandcastle!*  But Dictator Hagberg won't allow me to come with her because I am "delinquent" in my "agreement" to pay the Special Assessment in addition to the increased Maintenance Fee!

I have put many more hours into this Southcape discussion than NEVMSLLC has and his time would be better spent informing the more than 1000+ owners who don't know about TUG what's *really* going on!


----------



## Carolinian

WRONG!  What is happening at Southcape is that a pack of sharks is trying to swallow a resort and scam the hapless owners.  I don't own there, but I feel their pain, because a similar pack of sharks, Club Leisure Group, is trying to take over a resort where I own a couple of weeks in South Africa.  It is exactly the same MO and it needs to be stopped dead in its tracks both places.  I have read the stories of the same fate befalling resorts in the Canary Islands and others in South Africa.  Tombo and I have crossed swords on some other issues involving RCI, but he is right on the money on this one.



london said:


> I think this thread has run its course, why because now it is constantly personal attacks from one poster to the others.
> 
> Probably only a very small percentage of owners at Sandcastle, even go on this board.
> 
> Most likely, many Tuggers are following it, just to see who attacks who in the next post.
> 
> Give me a break..........


----------



## Carolinian

NEVMSLLC said:


> Tombo, if you had been at the annual meeting where this was discussed at length, you would have seen that almost all of the owners at the meeting didn't want their information released to anyone.  Several threatened to sue the resort if their information was released.  Just FYI



You are the one who needs to worry about being sued for violating corporate law that requires you to release the list to a proper request by an owner.  The reason you refuse to do so is because you want to continue your own little dictatorship over the HOA.  You want to keep owners from contacting each other and sharing information.

There was once a timeshare developer with a similar mentality on the NC Outer Banks, known as First Flight Developers.  Within a short period of time, they got their butts kicked out of all of their resorts on the Outer Banks after concerned owners committees were organized and obtained lawyers. Indeed, they had to sign over all of the developer units to the HOA's and in one case had to pay the HOA a six figure sum in cash.  I have owned at three resorts built by First Flight, and all of them have been run much better after owners got control and kicked First Flight out the door.

These owners at your resorts are just beginning to fight! More power to them!


----------



## tombo

Carolinian said:


> WRONG!  What is happening at Southcape is that a pack of sharks is trying to swallow a resort and scam the hapless owners.  I don't own there, but I feel their pain, because a similar pack of sharks, Club Leisure Group, is trying to take over a resort where I own a couple of weeks in South Africa.  It is exactly the same MO and it needs to be stopped dead in its tracks both places.  I have read the stories of the same fate befalling resorts in the Canary Islands and others in South Africa.  Tombo and I have crossed swords on some other issues involving RCI, but he is right on the money on this one.



It is nice being on the same side as you for at least this one issue. You are always knowledgable and thorough with your posts. Though I don't always agree with your posts as you know from our debates, I do always respect them. 

This forum has gotten more personal because facts are very hard to defend. It is easier for Cliff to call me paranoid, delusional, uninformed, and try to get me removed for alleged rude posts than it is to defend facts. Several here (including Carolinian who often disagrees with me) have posted support of my posts. I have seen no one with a TUG track record post that Cliff is doing a great job running Sandcastle or Southscape and none with any significant number of TUG posts defending Outfield or Festiva. Several TUGGERS with long track records who I trust and respect came to my defense. I don't need people to come to my defense when I am attacked, but it is nice that some did. Thanks.


----------



## Sou13

*Has this discussion had anything to do with it?*

I've been checking the database at the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access almost daily and it took forever for the Southcape conversions to be updated since May 12, 2009, at which time there were over 200 but between March and May there were only about 50.  

Today it's been updated and as of July 7 there have been less than 10!

While I've never been able to come up with the exact # of summer weeks have been converted to Festiva points, I can safely say there aren't many and most of those conversions took place before Festiva was registered to do business in Massachusetts!


----------



## Sou13

*A puzzling conversion*

It appears that a previous owner of a "red" week was somehow able to convert it to Festiva points even though the week she now owns is Week 9!

The record shows that she signed off on week 38 in May but then signed it over to InterCity Escrow in July!  Puzzling, isn't it?


----------



## Sou13

*Another unwelcome change*

It looks as though it's time to redo my signature as the wonderful new website we've been promised no longer has a link to the Master Deed.

So now it's back to the task of scanning our downloaded copies and making them available to owners who request them.  This may mean breaking it up into 10MB segments in order to be able to email them.  I tried saving it to a Yahoo! Group file and wasn't even able to download 10MB!

The Master Deed that has disappeared is from 1982.  Many changes have taken place and many of the changes taking place at Southcape are in violation of the original Master Deed.  

If anyone has the ability to download the program needed for viewing deeds, go to Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access and search for Book 3526 Page 001, Book 3526 Page 52, and Book 3526 Page 111.

Southcape Condo II owners can find the Declaration of Trust for Southcape II in Book 5937 Page 135.

Don't we all just love NEVS?


----------



## Carolinian

Your group needs to get some legal advice as to how to proceed.  At the First Flight resorts, owners committees were formed and solicited contributions to their legal fund.  I saw a website of an owners group that is fighting Celebrity, an entity that operates a lot like Festiva, and they are doing the same.  I bet a consultation as to what your options are and what they would cost would be in the neighborhood of $500 or so.  You really need to force Hagberg's hand on his stall tactics on the membership list.  In North Carolina, some attorneys even offer free initial consultations, often time limited (15 minutes or so), as they find it is a good way to get cases that will more than pay for the free consultation.  The best bet is to find a Massachusetts attorney who is a timesharer and might do a few things pro bono or for a lesser fee.

I really wonder if Hagberg has gotten real legal advice.  Surely any lawyer would have pointed out to him his responsibilities under corporate law to provide the membership list.   Also, any lawyer I know would have warned him about having Outfield people on the resort boards which would 1) possibly tie them to Hagberg, and 2) give them fiduciary responsibilities as to members.

You also might want to ask a Massachusetts lawyer about whether a corporate derivative suit may be appropriate, essentially where members sue the officers / directors on behalf of the corporation to secure the interests of the corporation.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> The problem is, Eric, that when Southcape owners do come and and try to post they get flamed by Tombo and others and I don't like it.  I want to hear from everyone.  Unfortunately, what I see here is people like Tombo who, most of the time, doesn't know what he's talking about.  I fully realize that Tombo has a right to air his paranoid fantasies and i don't have a problem with that.  Most of the time it's kind of amusing.  What I do object to is his (and others) rude and abusive behavior to people who don't agree with him.  He has an absolute right to respectfully disagree with people but that's not what he does.  Read his posts.  I find them to be embarrassing.
> 
> FYI, we are planning a private owner's area on both the Southcape and Sandcastle websites.  I think it's important even though you and Tombo wouldn't be able to participate.




While I do not agree with the intensity that new members who post to this thread are subjected to, I do understand that Tombo is just attempting to ensure that shills are not used to advance self-serving opinions. 

I do agree that new posters should be given the benefit of the doubt, and a rush to judgement should not be made.


----------



## Carolinian

The other thing I would do is follow the money.  Access to membership lists, meeting facilities, the right to solicit onsite, etc. are valuable. *What is the HOA receiving for them?* Or does it all goes into NEVS pocket?  This is a valuable corporate asset of the HOA.  They should be getting a substantial cut of any conversion fees or in the alternative rent and other fees for use of those items and facilities.  This is not an asset that belongs to the management, but to the HOA.  Where is the money going?


----------



## JackB62

*New posters*

On another board we used to call new posters who appeared to be contradictory to the mainstream posters, "trolls."

Of course you could recognize the troll by his or her incendiary or conflicting opinion. Trolls like to sit back after making such a statement and watch the action.


----------



## JackB62

*I am a new poster*

Although I didn't really change my screen name and re-register,
I thought I'd mention that I just spent my week at Southcape and it was a wonderful experience.

I met with someone who wanted to give me a bunch of vacation points and all I had to do was sign over my worthless timeshare deed.

I just want to say thanks to NEVSMLLC for their masterful pillaging of the Southcape resort.


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## wfweinstein

JackB62 said:


> On another board we used to call new posters who appeared to be contradictory to the mainstream posters, "trolls."
> 
> Of course you could recognize the troll by his or her incendiary or conflicting opinion. Trolls like to sit back after making such a statement and watch the action.



Good grief!  You even have a derogatory name for new posters who don't agree with you????


----------



## Fig

wfweinstein said:


> Good grief!  You even have a derogatory name for new posters who don't agree with you????



Umm..."troll" is a standard internet term that has been around for years. You can look it up. You seem pretty "new." Should we be welcoming you to the board or the internet in general? So I say "welcome, welcome" to cover both.


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## CIC3

*Southcape Stay*

Hi All,

Just got back from my week stay at Southcape and have some observations and concerns:

1. Upon check in, people who had not yet meant with anyone to learn about "the updates" at the resort were directed to a woman who was waiting on the sofa in the clubhouse. She was setting up appointments for the points conversion sell, but when people asked her what the meeting was about, she made it sound so exciting by saying "we'll be telling you about all the updates at the resort." We were not shuffled over to see the woman since we already had the "updates" meeting at our home.

2. On my way to the pool one day, a woman had just left her "update" meeting and was so upset that they were trying to take her 2 red weeks and give her points in return, plus she had to pay them to do so. And she would have to pick her weeks every year, thus she loses her guarantee of having her fixed July weeks. She attended the annual meeting and asked if anything has been done in terms of owners getting on the Board of Trustees. So on behalf of numerous owners, I ask Cliff if you are reading this, why do we have to wait until the end of the year to appoint owners to represent us on the Board. Why not the present?

3. Although the indoor pool has been painted, the blue paint is already peeling in some areas. In the right hand corner of the pool (as you are going down the stairs at the 3 foot end), you will see white showing through, as well as in other areas in the 3 foot and 5 foot area. The owners need to contact whomever painted the pool and have them redo it. I'm sure they guarantee their work for a certain period. Also, the pooll drain is not up to the federal mandate.

4. The stone walkway around the indoor pool is horrendous. Stones are falling out and green mold is growing in the holes where they used to be. Furthermore, the small stones that have fallen out are sticking on people's feet and are being brought into the pool.

5. There was no wireless Internet as of 7/11/09.

6. There was no exterior work going on for the entire week 07/04-07/11.

7. We were assigned Unit 14, which was a loft. The condition of the unit was awful. We had 8 family members down and we were never more embarrassed. We couldn't even sit on the sofa or loveseat because the cushions were so worn that the springs were shot. We had to go out and buy an air mattress for those who were supposed to sleep on the pull out sofa. As far as the loft, the rubber stair threads on the ladder to the loft were loose on two of the steps. It was quite a dangerous adventure for those sleeping up there. I can't believe housekeeping didn't notice this. While the guest bedroom mattresses were fine, the one in the master bedroom was worn and uncomfortable to sleep on.

8. The wood on the door to Unit 14 was peeling at the bottom. Slits of it were actually flapping as you open the door. Not a good impression to give upon entering the unit.

According to past newsletters, Unit 14 furniture was replaced 3 years ago. I know these units get a lot of wear, but if we're paying to replace furniture every 3 years, perhaps that's something we need to look at. Maybe we can buy sturdier furniture that cost more. In the case of the sofa, replacing just the mattress can be done.

There needs to be some sort of quality checks in these units on a regular basis, not just relying on people who stay in them to mention them on the maintenance sheets. If housekeeping doesn't have the time to sit on beds and sofas to check their condition, then perhaps an office worker, maintenance person, or sales person can do it. After all, people renting off the street are not going to return if they get a unit in bad shape.

Considering what we have been paying in maintenance fees over the years, there's no excuse for the bad condition of furniture.

Speaking of maintenance fees, we have traveled to numerous other resorts over the 20 plus years we have owned at Southcape by exchanging our week through Interval or RCI. We always inquired about the maintenance fees at the resorts because their condition was always immaculate, so we assumed the maintenance fees would be high. Rather, we found that maintenance fees ranged from a low of $275 to a high of $475. Southcape's maintenance fees have always been higher than the norm, yet the resort does not reflect that. It continues to show its age.

We as owners really need to start getting more involved and questioning where the money is going, how furniture replacement is done in terms of cost, and how we can get more amenities, such as a beach or shopping trolley, to better market the resort. There are a lot of other accommodations trying to attract guests, so we need to step it up if we want to increase rental income.


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## NEVMSLLC

Hi CiC3

Thanks for your post and I'll try to answer all of your questions.

No one is trying to take anyone's weeks.  It is true that owner's sometimes interpret the requirement to deed one's weeks to Festiva if they join the Adventure Club to be an attempt to "take" their weeks.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  If she wished to use her time at Southcape, she would have to notify Festiva a year in advance.  Sounds to me as though she made the right choice by deciding not to join.

3.  When the pool was repainted, it was because the last time it was repainted, they didn't wait a sufficient time for the paint to seal before refilling the pool and the paint was peeling.  This time, we did it ourselves to save money (the other company was out of business) and our staff again refilled the pool before the paint had cured.  I take full responsibility for not catching this before the pool was filled.  We will be repairing it properly in the fall when the heavy use subsides.

4.  We are looking into a new process to cover the walkway.  I've seen this done at the Ponds at Foxhollow in the Berkshires and it looks wonderful.  We're getting information and estimates on repairing this situation.

5.  Wireless internet is installed but not working throughout the resort.  We are still waiting for Comcast to update their wiring and are chasing them every week.  Other than that, it's all set and I apologize for not having it ready for you.

6.  Exterior work on units 1 - 24 and exterior painting of units 32 - 55 has been completed.  We wanted to complete it so that our owners would not be disturbed over the summer.

7 & 8.  Units 1 - 24 haven't been renovated on the interior for many years.  I have no idea how long it's been as we haven't been able to find any records of working being done on these units.  I agree with you about the condition of unit 18 and the other units are similar.  This and the exterior rot and leaking roofs were the main reasons for the special assessment.  Those units will be renovated this winter as there was no time to do it this spring before the summer season began.

I don't know what the newsletter said but unit 18 was not renovated.  Renovations should take place to some level every 5 - 7 years.  A resort should have a reserve account where money is placed every year to pay for the renovations when they are needed.  Southcape has never had a reserve account.  When we took over, you will recall that we established a reserve account which we expect will eliminate the need for special assessments in future years.  That account is being funded.

I agree with you that these things should have been done and prepared for years ago.  They weren't.  Why the previous trustees didn't do it, I have no idea, but we do have a plan going forward that i expect will mean you will never see this problem again.

Our maintenance fees are comparable to other similar resorts in the Northeast.  Fees in southern states do tend to be lower for any number of reasons.  To give you an idea, Brewster Green fees run as high as $740.  The Ponds at Foxhollow fees run to well over $800 per week.  Ours are under $600 and I do not expect a significant increase for 2010.

I agree with that last statement 100%.  I am always looking for input from owners.  Next year, we plan to offer both on site and off site activities for owners and guests, all without a significant increase in fees.  We're just getting started and we want owner involvement.

Finally, I am not waiting until the end of the year to appoint the Owner Advisory Board.  It is being done as we speak and their first meeting will be this fall to review the budget before it is submitted to the trustees.  If you have an interest in serving, please let me know.  My email is nevmsllc@gmail.com.

Cliff


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## Sou13

vivmarch said:


> Answers to your question:
> 1.  Owner
> 2.  Site suggested by another owner
> 3.  Yes



Here's a recap of the questions:

_*answers to your questions *

Quote:
Originally posted by *vivmarch*
I have just returned from a great week at Southcape (even though the weather didn't always cooperate!) and discovered this site. 

What are you all going on about?? 

I have been staying at Southcape for the last nine years and this year noticed that the place was in a much better condition than it has been in all those years. And I understand from the staff that there are some further upgrades still in progress. I think it's great as any improvements to Southcape protect my initial investment. I've seen several timeshare resorts in other parts of the country that have been allowed to fall into disrepair and I would be very upset if I owned one of them!

So what's going on?

Quote:
Originally posted by *Sou13*
I have a few questions for you:

1. Are you a concerned Southcape Interval Owner?

2. How did you happen to discover this site upon your return? Please elaborate!

3. Have you paid your nearly $1000 in MF and SA for 2009 in full or are you an exchange from another resort?
That's all for now. Come back soon! 

Quote:
Originally posted by *vivmarch*
Answers to your question:
1. Owner
2. Site suggested by another owner 
3. Yes_​

I take it that you are a "red" week owner whose week is worth a lot more than a "float" week owner such as myself.

So now that we've established that you are an owner, tell us more about why you got referred to TUG and this discussion by another owner.


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## Carolinian

Members should not be satisfied with a mere Owners ''Advisory'' Committee.  They should be controlling the board, not a purchaser or unsold developer inventory who is not even paying his rightful m/f's on that inventory and is therefore a deadbeat.


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## vivmarch

Carolinian said:


> Members should not be satisfied with a mere Owners ''Advisory'' Committee.  They should be controlling the board, not a purchaser or unsold developer inventory who is not even paying his rightful m/f's on that inventory and is therefore a deadbeat.



I have a question which might be stupid and obvious, but perhaps someone could answer it for me.  

If a developer didn't come it and buy up the unsold weeks in order to sell them on (and presumably to make money, otherwise why would they bother), what would happen to these unsold weeks?  Who would own them and who would be paying MFs on them?

Does anyone know?


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## CIC3

Hi Cliff,

Thank you for responding to my concerns. As I mentioned in my post, we stayed in Unit 14, not 18 as you stated in your reply. You mentioned that exterior work on Units 1-24 was completed, so I'm puzzled how the exterior door of Unit 14 got passed by?  The wood on the bottom of the door is shredding and peeling. Also, the past newsletter says the interior of Unit 14 was updated 3 years ago. I'll be happy to send you a copy of the newsletter if you're unable to locate one. Or are you implying that although the newsletter indicates the work was done, it never was? If that's the case, there should be in place some system where owners can verify whether or not the work took place that was communicated in the newsletter. Owners should not have to take what was communicated in a newsletter as face value. We have been receiving annual reports with our maintenance fee bills right along, so the cost for those updates three years ago were listed. But everything is included in one lump category. Perhaps going forward a line item accounting system can be used so owners can see exactly how much is spent on upgrades and repairs per unit or item.


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## NEVMSLLC

Hi CIC3

Sorry about the mistake in the unit number but they're all in basically the same condition.  The doors, etc. are part of the interior work we're going to be doing.  We only had a few weeks before the start of the summer season so we concentrated on roofs, siding, trim boards and painting which was about all we could get done in the short time frame.

As I said, I haven't seen a copy of that newsletter, but basically, no work was done on units 1 - 24.  We've discovered a number of items not done by the previous trustees that we were uncomfortable with.

Owners will be able to see for themselves the work that was done anytime they visit with us.  Resort management will be happy to meet with any owner that would like more details, all we ask is that you make an appointment so we can reserve time to answer your questions.

Cliff


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## Sou13

*Another legal question?*

_Quote:
Originally Posted by *vivmarch* 
I have a question which might be stupid and obvious, but perhaps someone could answer it for me.  

If a developer didn't come it and buy up the unsold weeks in order to sell them on (and presumably to make money, otherwise why would they bother), what would happen to these unsold weeks?  Who would own them and who would be paying MFs on them?

Does anyone know?_​This may be one of those legal questions that NEVMSLLC refuses to answer.


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## NEVMSLLC

I'm not sure she was asking it of me.


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## Sou13

*Who is she?*

_Quote:
Originally Posted by *NEVMSLLC*
I'm not sure she was asking it of me._​Who is "she"?  You know that I am a "she" but if you were referring to vivmarch how did you know what gender this new poster is?


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## Sou13

*Addendum to above*

Oh and BTW I am a Southcape owner and that was not a legal question.


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## london

*Resort Improvements & Management*

I have been timesharing since 1991. 

The upkeep of the units and grounds are important to all owners.

Sometimes assessments are needed to complete renovations.

It appears that this resort will be in a much better condition in a year or two.

I suspect the majority of owners use the weeks, rather than trade them.

I think this resort will continue for many years to come.


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## NEVMSLLC

Sou13 said:


> _Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NEVMSLLC*
> I'm not sure she was asking it of me._​Who is "she"?  You know that I am a "she" but if you were referring to vivmarch how did you know what gender this new poster is?



Sou, you are absolutely correct here.  When I saw the "viv" I assumed it was for Vivian and referred to the poster as "she".  I stand corrected and hereby apologize to vivmarch for my sexist assumption.


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## tombo

Sou13 said:


> _Quote:
> Originally Posted by *NEVMSLLC*
> I'm not sure she was asking it of me._​Who is "she"?  You know that I am a "she" but if you were referring to vivmarch how did you know what gender this new poster is?



Sou I referred to you as "he" for a long time after you started posting. I couldn't pssibly know which sex you were, or which sex a poster named vivmarch was either. One always uses "he" if not sure.

I remain amazed by all of the new posters who are not mad at Cliff, Outfield, or Festiva. For over 6 months few if any new guests who liked NEVS, Outfield, or Festiva found their way to this board. Now it is a daily occurence. It is funny how virtually all of the new posters who are all "guests" seem to feel the way Cliff would like all owners to feel. 

I am glad that new "guests" can point out that the resort is being renovated for the good of all. 

 It does make one curious wondering where the new guests are that are mad about the assessments that have been levied with no vote or input from owner's? Where are the new guests wanting accountability for how the money is being spent? Do none of the new "guests" care about how contractors were chosen (closed bids, brother-in-laws), where the material was purchased, if all scheduled repairs needed to be done right now or could have waited, who is doing the accounting for the expenditures and when they will be available for owners to examine, and if any upcoming asessments will be levied to finish the current upgrades if the money runs out before updates are finished, or if any future assessments are in the plans for future upgrades. I am surprised with the influx of new "guests" on this thread that none of those who feel this way have found their way here after talking to owners at the resort who were mad about the assessments. Apparently only happy owners are inviting people to visit TUG.



It is also great for new "guests" to bring up the question of what would happen if a developer hadn't bought those unsold weeks as they said "to make money or why bother" (that sounds like something a developer would say). It is good to remind everyone that if the developer didn't buy them that nobody would be paying MF's on them.

Where are the new "guests" concerned that the unsold weeks are owned by the new developer and THE NEW DEVELOPER IS CONTROLLING THOSE UNSOLD WEEKS AND APPOINTING TRUSTEES TO RULE THE RESORT WHILE PAYING NO MF'S OR ASSESSMENTS ON THOSE WEEKS? Where are the "guests who are mad that the developer is not paying a penny to renovate the resort but reaping the benefit by selling their upgraded weeks they don't pay MF's on or assessments on at the upgraded resort they didn't have to pay to upgrade or maintain? How about "guests who are mad that Outfield never even mentions the availability of unsold inventory as they try to get them to swap to points for $3000 and their "worthless" deeded week? Where are the new "guests" concerned that the developer can always keep enough unsold inventory to remain forever in control of the resort? 

I am surprised that we recently have seen so many new "guests" who are happy with the situation at Southscape apearing on this thread, but that we have almost zero new "guests" finding this thread who are upset with the situation at Southscape. The new happy "guests seem to be finding out about this thread while at the resort. Apparently only happy owners are discussing TUG by the pool. That is very surprising since most of the posters here on TUG are very unhappy about the situation at the resort. You would think that the people who are actually posting on TUG would be the ones discussing TUG at the resort. If TUGGERS were inviting owners to this thread, you would expect new "guests" would enter the site looking to see what problems are occuring at the resort, rather than making their first posts praising upgrades and actions taken by mgt. 

 I think every owner here who is upset about the situation at Southscape and Sandcastle needs to be more vocal by the pool, at the owner's meetings, and as you pass people in the parking lot. Tell everyone you see at the resort about the situation and invite them to join TUG. Soon we might start seeing new "guests" who don't agree with Cliff, and you might save some owners from giving up their deeded week for "worthless" Festiva points. On your next trip to your resort, spread the word about TUG to all you see, not just the happy owners.


----------



## JackB62

*We need to get together!*

Tombo,

Thanks for your rallying post. You have spoken the truth again.

To Southcape Interval owners: note that two things have happened
that you should be aware of.

1- An assessment of over $1.2 million. In the Master Deed, SA work is not supposed to start until most of the money is collected. The work started before virtually any money was collected.

2- While there is a new coat of paint and a roof (much of which didn't need to be replaced because it already had been), don't let the "look" make you feel comfortable. Many of the interiors are in great disrepair and yet work has stopped. I bet *a lot* of the money hasn't been collected.

Under the old owners, another building may have been completed in time for this summer season. That last building was done under the old management
and was completely refurbished inside and out without a special assessment.

I do agree that the old management may have tried to save us too much money, but eventually things got done.


----------



## vivmarch

tombo said:


> Sou I referred to you as "he" for a long time after you started posting. I couldn't pssibly know which sex you were, or which sex a poster named vivmarch was either. One always uses "he" if not sure.
> 
> I remain amazed by all of the new posters who are not mad at Cliff, Outfield, or Festiva. For over 6 months few if any new guests who liked NEVS, Outfield, or Festiva found their way to this board. Now it is a daily occurence. It is funny how virtually all of the new posters who are all "guests" seem to feel the way Cliff would like all owners to feel.
> 
> I am glad that new "guests" can point out that the resort is being renovated for the good of all.
> 
> It does make one curious wondering where the new guests are that are mad about the assessments that have been levied with no vote or input from owner's? Where are the new guests wanting accountability for how the money is being spent? Do none of the new "guests" care about how contractors were chosen (closed bids, brother-in-laws), where the material was purchased, if all scheduled repairs needed to be done right now or could have waited, who is doing the accounting for the expenditures and when they will be available for owners to examine, and if any upcoming asessments will be levied to finish the current upgrades if the money runs out before updates are finished, or if any future assessments are in the plans for future upgrades. I am surprised with the influx of new "guests" on this thread that none of those who feel this way have found their way here after talking to owners at the resort who were mad about the assessments. Apparently only happy owners are inviting people to visit TUG.
> 
> 
> 
> It is also great for new "guests" to bring up the question of what would happen if a developer hadn't bought those unsold weeks as they said "to make money or why bother" (that sounds like something a developer would say). It is good to remind everyone that if the developer didn't buy them that nobody would be paying MF's on them.
> 
> Where are the new "guests" concerned that the unsold weeks are owned by the new developer and THE NEW DEVELOPER IS CONTROLLING THOSE UNSOLD WEEKS AND APPOINTING TRUSTEES TO RULE THE RESORT WHILE PAYING NO MF'S OR ASSESSMENTS ON THOSE WEEKS? Where are the "guests who are mad that the developer is not paying a penny to renovate the resort but reaping the benefit by selling their upgraded weeks they don't pay MF's on or assessments on at the upgraded resort they didn't have to pay to upgrade or maintain? How about "guests who are mad that Outfield never even mentions the availability of unsold inventory as they try to get them to swap to points for $3000 and their "worthless" deeded week? Where are the new "guests" concerned that the developer can always keep enough unsold inventory to remain forever in control of the resort?
> 
> I am surprised that we recently have seen so many new "guests" who are happy with the situation at Southscape apearing on this thread, but that we have almost zero new "guests" finding this thread who are upset with the situation at Southscape. The new happy "guests seem to be finding out about this thread while at the resort. Apparently only happy owners are discussing TUG by the pool. That is very surprising since most of the posters here on TUG are very unhappy about the situation at the resort. You would think that the people who are actually posting on TUG would be the ones discussing TUG at the resort. If TUGGERS were inviting owners to this thread, you would expect new "guests" would enter the site looking to see what problems are occuring at the resort, rather than making their first posts praising upgrades and actions taken by mgt.
> 
> I think every owner here who is upset about the situation at Southscape and Sandcastle needs to be more vocal by the pool, at the owner's meetings, and as you pass people in the parking lot. Tell everyone you see at the resort about the situation and invite them to join TUG. Soon we might start seeing new "guests" who don't agree with Cliff, and you might save some owners from giving up their deeded week for "worthless" Festiva points. On your next trip to your resort, spread the word about TUG to all you see, not just the happy owners.



You make an excellent point.  To me it suggests that there are perhaps not as many unhappy owners as there are made out to be?

FYI: the other owner who put me on to this site wasn't unhappy.  He just mentioned the site because it had been pointed out to him and he was passing it on.


----------



## Fig

vivmarch said:


> You make an excellent point.  To me it suggests that there are perhaps not as many unhappy owners as there are made out to be?
> 
> FYI: the other owner who put me on to this site wasn't unhappy.  He just mentioned the site because it had been pointed out to him and he was passing it on.



Okay, it isn't the first time I have suggested that Cliff might be posting as Viv...and a few other names...now he seems to have lost track of what names he is posting under so the stories can be consistent post to post.

Viv is now saying a "he'' introduced her/him onto the site....her/his first post said it was the "woman next door"....gee that might be a detail I would recall if I had truly had a conversation in the first place.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=752563&postcount=705

Poor Cliff he is spinning so much...like the tale that Outfield Marketing has an office somewhere outside of Denton, TX until I pointed out his own legal documents said it was that exact same address or that a timeshare is not real estate when his own website claims it is....he is tripping over his own yarns.

Take a nice long breath Cliff...relax and compose.


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## tombo

vivmarch said:


> You make an excellent point.  To me it suggests that there are perhaps not as many unhappy owners as there are made out to be?
> 
> FYI: the other owner who put me on to this site wasn't unhappy.  He just mentioned the site because it had been pointed out to him and he was passing it on.



OMG Cliff, do you think that you are brilliant and everyone else is stupid? You can not be so blatant and still be believed. A blind man can see where this is coming from.


----------



## Carolinian

If the resort had a properly organized homeowner-run HOA, which the current developer dictatorship is thwarting, then if m/f's were not paid, the weeks would be foreclosed and would belong to the HOA, which could then sell them.

On the Outer Banks, a number of homeowner-run HOA's sued or threatened to sue developers who were not paying m/f's on their weeks and the weeks ended up owned by the HOA's which then sold them off. One HOA on the OBX also squeezed six figures in cash out of the developer in addition to the developer owned weeks.  HOA's need to be firm with deadbeat developers and not let them continue stiffing the HOA and its members.  If this deadbeat developer at your resort had been paying m/f's on its weeks, the resort would probably not have needed a special assessment.




vivmarch said:


> I have a question which might be stupid and obvious, but perhaps someone could answer it for me.
> 
> If a developer didn't come it and buy up the unsold weeks in order to sell them on (and presumably to make money, otherwise why would they bother), what would happen to these unsold weeks?  Who would own them and who would be paying MFs on them?
> 
> Does anyone know?


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> OMG Cliff, do you think that you are brilliant and everyone else is stupid? You can not be so blatant and still be believed. A blind man can see where this is coming from.



Tombo, I guess we should feel lucky Cliff is still talking with us in the form of "Viv" and his Viv alt is so much easier to chat with...it just gets darn hard to create a fictious poster and have all the details remain consistent...never mind when you are trying to juggle several...I'll miss you Viv if you can't 'splain your way out of this one. Give Cliff a kiss for us, will ya?


----------



## Carolinian

london said:


> I have been timesharing since 1991.
> 
> The upkeep of the units and grounds are important to all owners.
> 
> Sometimes assessments are needed to complete renovations.
> 
> It appears that this resort will be in a much better condition in a year or two.
> 
> I suspect the majority of owners use the weeks, rather than trade them.
> 
> I think this resort will continue for many years to come.



Having been on an HOA board that proposed a special assessment to our members, which received the unanimous vote of the members, I agree that occaisionally such things are necessary in timesharing, although they should be rare.  Our Declaration of Covenants provision that required a homeowner vote for an special assessment is a wise precaution in timesharing.

One of the major red flags on Southcape on the financial side is that the management is stonewalling members from looking at the books.  Members are allowed to do that in every state I am aware of by state law.  Why is this management stonewalling and violating state law?  Is there something in those books they are trying to hide?  Members need to be insistant, even get a court order if necessary.  Management's stonewalling is way out of line.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Fig said:


> Tombo, I guess we should feel lucky Cliff is still talking with us in the form of "Viv" and his Viv alt is so much easier to chat with...it just gets darn hard to create a fictious poster and have all the details remain consistent...never mind when you are trying to juggle several...I'll miss you Viv if you can't 'splain your way out of this one. Give Cliff a kiss for us, will ya?



Wow, you guys are really too much!!  So, everyone who doesn't agree with you must be me?

So, now I must be vivmarch, mweinberg, london, cic3, massman and a whole host of others????  What kind of time do you think I have available?

I'm just here to answer legitimate questions from legitimate owners and you guys take up a lot of space and time with a bunch of nonsense.

Since there are many on here who will not respect new posters or actual owners at the resort, please contact me at nevmsllc@gmail.com and I'll be happy to answer your questions.  We'll let the rest of them pass their conspiracy theories back and forth to each other.


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Wow, you guys are really too much!!  So, everyone who doesn't agree with you must be me?
> 
> So, now I must be vivmarch, mweinberg, london, cic3, massman and a whole host of others????  What kind of time do you think I have available?



Nah, London is a real owner, as are many of the others...but Viv..I was onto her from the start. Nice lady though...you just have to get your details down a little better. You did take my suggestion not to post at the same time. However, here's another little hint , when you start a story and say that "the woman next door" introduced you to the site and then post that it was a man, you strain credibility a bit. Work on that, will ya?  But then again, as I say, Cliff, you are pretty darned incredible.

So happy to be chatting again, Cliff as Cliff...I've missed our little conversations.


----------



## ecwinch

london said:


> I have been timesharing since 1991.
> 
> The upkeep of the units and grounds are important to all owners.
> 
> Sometimes assessments are needed to complete renovations.
> 
> It appears that this resort will be in a much better condition in a year or two.
> 
> I suspect the majority of owners use the weeks, rather than trade them.
> 
> I think this resort will continue for many years to come.



I do not think this is being disputed. The broader question is "are you comfortable with Cliff's abuse of power and unjust enrichment, as long as the condition of the resort improves". 

As previously noted, if Cliff was paying m/f on his inventory, the special assessment would obviously be far less than it is.

If the majority of owners, are comfortable with practices at the resort, then I agree, the non-owners should stand-down. There are any number of actions that Cliff has the power to take in order to settle the issue, but he has chosen a different path. While not an owner there, I think it is important for owners to be fully informed on their rights to curb unfair practices at resorts.


----------



## ecwinch

vivmarch said:


> I have a question which might be stupid and obvious, but perhaps someone could answer it for me.
> 
> If a developer didn't come it and buy up the unsold weeks in order to sell them on (and presumably to make money, otherwise why would they bother), what would happen to these unsold weeks?  Who would own them and who would be paying MFs on them?
> 
> Does anyone know?



The answer is that the HOA would most likely own them. The important distinction is that having the HOA own these weeks, means that the HOA benefits fully from the rental income and the revenue should any of these weeks be sold. 

Would that be any different than what you have now? Yes and no. 

On the m/f and special assessment side it is a wash, since Cliff does not pay m/f and assessments on his inventory. So the expenses are shared only by actual owners. This is no different then if the HOA owned the weeks. 

The major difference would be when a week is sold. If the HOA owned the weeks, then the HOA would receive the proceeds from the sale. So the HOA would benefit from the sales price of the two weeks that were recently sold. Currently the HOA received nothing. And in part the special assessment has improved those units (at your expense), allowing them to be sold at a higher price. So Cliff is directly benefiting from the improvements that you, as a owner, are paying for. This is typically referred to as "unjust enrichment". 

Now to give Cliff some credit, he has previously stated that he has ceded all rental revenue from his inventory to the HOA. Legally I think it would be hard for him to do otherwise, and maintain his position that he does not have pay m/f. Clearly if he is receiving beneficial use of the units, his position that he is exempt from m/f would be diminished. I think he knows that, and that it influenced his decision to do so.

So the bottom line is that you are paying to improve his property. So that can in turn sell it at a greater profit or convert into more Festiva credits for Outfield to sell. As an owner, how can you be comfortable with that arrangement?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

ecwinch said:


> I do not think this is being disputed. The broader question is "are you comfortable with Cliff's abuse of power and unjust enrichment, as long as the condition of the resort improves".



OK, Eric, that's enough.  "Abuse of power" and "unjust enrichment" are very serious legal accusations.  Unless you are able to back your statements up with proof, I would expect and accept an apology from you.  These appear to be statements of fact and they also appear to be defamatory, all of which is potentially actionable.

I will tolerate a lot of abuse on here and I have, but I will not tolerate unfounded accusations such as you have just made.

Cliff


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> Now to give Cliff some credit, he has previously stated that he has ceded all rental revenue from his inventory to the HOA.



The Cape is a summer area and pretty much closed in the winter when this inventory is, as pointed out by an owner who asked about it http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=756702&postcount=102 (interesting Cliff would rather take issue with non-owners before answering that question which has been hanging out there since 10am...before all the non-owner posts he seems so wound up about.) So, isn't this claim to rental income rather moot?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

ecwinch said:


> The answer is that the HOA would most likely own them. The important distinction is that having the HOA own these weeks, means that the HOA benefits fully from the rental income and the revenue should any of these weeks be sold.
> 
> Would that be any different than what you have now? Yes and no.
> 
> On the m/f and special assessment side it is a wash, since Cliff does not pay m/f and assessments on his inventory. So the expenses are shared only by actual owners. This is no different then if the HOA owned the weeks.
> 
> The major difference would be when a week is sold. If the HOA owned the weeks, then the HOA would receive the proceeds from the sale. So the HOA would benefit from the sales price of the two weeks that were recently sold. Currently the HOA received nothing. And in part the special assessment has improved those units (at your expense), allowing them to be sold at a higher price. So Cliff is directly benefiting from the improvements that you, as a owner, are paying for. This is typically referred to as "unjust enrichment".
> 
> Now to give Cliff some credit, he has previously stated that he has ceded all rental revenue from his inventory to the HOA. Legally I think it would be hard for him to do otherwise, and maintain his position that he does not have pay m/f. Clearly if he is receiving beneficial use of the units, his position that he is exempt from m/f would be diminished. I think he knows that, and that it influenced his decision to do so.
> 
> So the bottom line is that you are paying to improve his property. So that can in turn sell it at a greater profit or convert into more Festiva credits for Outfield to sell. As an owner, how can you be comfortable with that arrangement?




Your final statement here is even worse than the previous one. In all the months I've been answering questions and responding on here, this is the first time I've actually gotten angry at the half truths, innuendos and outright falsehoods being posted here on TUG.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> OK, Eric, that's enough.  "Abuse of power" and "unjust enrichment" are very serious legal accusations.  Unless you are able to back your statements up with proof, I would expect and accept an apology from you.  These appear to be statements of fact and they also appear to be defamatory, all of which is potentially actionable.
> 
> I will tolerate a lot of abuse on here and I have, but I will not tolerate unfounded accusations such as you have just made.
> 
> Cliff



Oh, now we have legal threat of libel. Nice. 

Let me clarify my opinions, and make the following statements in the good faith and the reasonable belief that they are true. These statements form the basis for my personal opinion.  By and large, as a private individual, I am relying on the statements written here on the board by you and others. Feel free to rebut any of my statements, and in regard to any facts you may present, I will gladly withdrawn my statements and issue an apology. 

First, regarding your abuse of power. Here is the information that I have that support my personal opinion:

You have been unwilling to share legal opinions provided to you as a Trustee by HOA legal counsel regarding the your non-payment of m/f with regard to developer inventory.

You have refused to provide the members list to authorized members of HOA. This is in contravention of the section 32 of the Mass statute Chapter 183B.

You have refused to allow members to inspect the records of the corporation. Again in contravention of the Section 5.10 of the By-Laws and section 30 of Mass statute Chapter 183B.

Despite your illegal refusal to provide the members list, you have refused to provide an alternate procedure that would allow concerned members to communicate with each other regarding HOA business.

In regard to your unjust enrichment, you have failed to document the legality of your non-payment of m/f, which allows you to retain ownership of your inventory. Said inventory is benefiting from improvements that are being paid for by the special assessment levied on owners at the resort, and for which you claim to be exempt. 

The special assessments levied on these other owners is improving the value of property that you retain ownership of. Your claim of exemption from sharing in the expense of improving said property is a result of a flawed contract, and is unconscionable. This is the basis for my statement of unjust enrichment, in that your property is being improved at the expense of other owners at the resort.

The above are personal statements made by me, a private individual, based on the information provided in this forum. They are made with no malice. They are personal opinions.

p.s. why are my opinions so important to you Cliff....


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Your final statement here is even worse than the previous one. In all the months I've been answering questions and responding on here, this is the first time I've actually gotten angry at the half truths, innuendos and outright falsehoods being posted here on TUG.



Cliff,

I am an extremely open-minded individual. If you want to provide me with any information that refutes my statements, either privately or publicly, I will gladly review the information. On any issues I have been incorrect on, I will gladly provide an apology.

Heck, I will even sign a confidentially agreement if it will bring some closure to this issue.

In the absence, I stand behind the personal opinions I have shared here.

Thanks


----------



## vivmarch

ecwinch said:


> The answer is that the HOA would most likely own them. The important distinction is that having the HOA own these weeks, means that the HOA benefits fully from the rental income and the revenue should any of these weeks be sold.
> 
> Would that be any different than what you have now? Yes and no.
> 
> On the m/f and special assessment side it is a wash, since Cliff does not pay m/f and assessments on his inventory. So the expenses are shared only by actual owners. This is no different then if the HOA owned the weeks.
> 
> The major difference would be when a week is sold. If the HOA owned the weeks, then the HOA would receive the proceeds from the sale. So the HOA would benefit from the sales price of the two weeks that were recently sold. Currently the HOA received nothing. And in part the special assessment has improved those units (at your expense), allowing them to be sold at a higher price. So Cliff is directly benefiting from the improvements that you, as a owner, are paying for. This is typically referred to as "unjust enrichment".
> 
> Now to give Cliff some credit, he has previously stated that he has ceded all rental revenue from his inventory to the HOA. Legally I think it would be hard for him to do otherwise, and maintain his position that he does not have pay m/f. Clearly if he is receiving beneficial use of the units, his position that he is exempt from m/f would be diminished. I think he knows that, and that it influenced his decision to do so.
> 
> So the bottom line is that you are paying to improve his property. So that can in turn sell it at a greater profit or convert into more Festiva credits for Outfield to sell. As an owner, how can you be comfortable with that arrangement?



Thanks Eric, for answering this for me so clearly.  But now I have another question:  why don't the HOA own the unsold weeks?


----------



## ecwinch

vivmarch said:


> Thanks Eric, for answering this for me so clearly.  But now I have another question:  why don't the HOA own the unsold weeks?



Since I am now being threatened with legal action, I can only offer my opinion. It has been reported here that they are the unsold developer inventory. Normally, an HOA can only take possession of a week if the owner fails to pay m/f or special assessments, and they obtain a lien for the unpaid fees, and then in turn they foreclose on that week. Cliff has claimed that his inventory is exempt from those payments. An independent BoD or Trustees could pursue that issue, which is one thing that owners here have advocated. 

Cliff, you are a trustee at Southcape, can you answer Viv's question?


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> The answer is that the HOA would most likely own them. The important distinction is that having the HOA own these weeks, means that the HOA benefits fully from the rental income and the revenue should any of these weeks be sold.
> 
> Would that be any different than what you have now? Yes and no.
> 
> On the m/f and special assessment side it is a wash, since Cliff does not pay m/f and assessments on his inventory. So the expenses are shared only by actual owners. This is no different then if the HOA owned the weeks.
> 
> The major difference would be when a week is sold. If the HOA owned the weeks, then the HOA would receive the proceeds from the sale. So the HOA would benefit from the sales price of the two weeks that were recently sold. Currently the HOA received nothing. And in part the special assessment has improved those units (at your expense), allowing them to be sold at a higher price. So Cliff is directly benefiting from the improvements that you, as a owner, are paying for. This is typically referred to as "unjust enrichment".
> 
> Now to give Cliff some credit, he has previously stated that he has ceded all rental revenue from his inventory to the HOA. Legally I think it would be hard for him to do otherwise, and maintain his position that he does not have pay m/f. Clearly if he is receiving beneficial use of the units, his position that he is exempt from m/f would be diminished. I think he knows that, and that it influenced his decision to do so.
> 
> So the bottom line is that you are paying to improve his property. So that can in turn sell it at a greater profit or convert into more Festiva credits for Outfield to sell. As an owner, how can you be comfortable with that arrangement?



If the HOA actually owned the weeks, they could sell them for $1 or give them away for free to get them in the hands of dues paying owners. They would have zero incentive to keep those weeks as HOA weeks. They want every week bringing in revenue in the way of dues to help them operate the resort with lower MF's for all. They have no reason to hold out for $500, $1000, or even $18,000 for a week. Sell it to the first person who will buy and pay the annual dues because giving it away to someone for free beats the heck out of keeping it an HOA week with no income generated for the resort.

Cliff on the other hand has plenty incentives to not sell weeks. As long as he owns enough weeks he controls the resort. He controls the resort, he keeps Outfield selling Festiva Points to deeded owners, he keeps himself and Outfield owners/employees as trustees at the resort making all decisions, and he doesn't have to pay anything ever for any weeks he owns that remain unsold. If he sells too many he no longer will control the resort. Selling too many weeks would allow owners to get rid of him. He doesn't need to dump weeks to generate income for the resort because if it doesn't generate income for Cliff why do it. The weeks he owns don't cost him one cent to keep. All of the owners are paying the taxes, electricity, insurance, employees, upkeep, and upgrades for the weeks they own, and the weeks Cliff owns too. If someone offered me $100 for a week I owned that didn't cost me anything, why sell it? Jst sit on it until an uneducated buyer stumbles in and then make some big bucks.

Cliff has some type of a deal with Outfield/Festiva. Perhaps they backed him financially to buy Southscape/ Sandcastle, perhaps he gets a percentage of the proceeds from what Outfield sells,perhaps a combination of the two. We will probably never know what the deal is for sure, but we all know that Cliff isn't letting Outfield market to his resort owners for free and he didn't place them as trustees at the resort just for the heck of it. Cliff controls the resort with the other trustees, the trustees assess to improve the resort making it easier for Outfield and Festiva to sell points, and the owners pay to make the resorts more attractive to owners and new buyers. The resort does get better, but it gets better because of the owners expenditures without any help from NEVS, Outfield, or Festiva. however the triumvirate of evil benefits like parasites from the owners monetary injections to maintain and upgrade the resorts.

Since Outfield/Festiva has some kind of interest with Cliff/NEVS in these resorts, they probably wouldn't want him to sell out and leave because their access to owners and on site sales would leave too. However when Outfield sells enough FAC points and Festiva acquires enough deeded weeks to gain control of enough votes to run the resort on their own, Cliff can then give/sell them the remaining inventory and Southscapes/Sandcastle both become Festiva managed and Festiva owned resorts. When that happens Festiva will (like Cliff) not have to pay anything annually for the unsold inventory they own, but they (unlike Cliff) will be able to try and sell-out all of that unsold inventory because Festiva's control over Southscape/ Sandcastle will then be the deeded weeks they own from swapping owners to points, not the unsold inventory. When that happens Festiva will forever own control of both of these resorts and Cliff will no longer be needed (sorry Cliff). 

If Festiva ever does become owner of the majority of weeks, the owners will have to do whatever Festiva and the Festiva mgt company wants, or simply sell their weeks. That is how the final irrevocable loss of owner control at these resorts will probably occur. The plan is in motion now. Every deeded week that becomes Festiva's deeded week places owners closer and closer to no say in their resort and no way to reverse the situation. Get legal advice before it is too late.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> If the HOA actually owned the weeks, they could sell them for $1 or give them away for free to get them in the hands of dues paying owners. They would have zero incentive to keep those weeks as HOA weeks. They want every week bringing in revenue in the way of dues to help them operate the resort with lower MF's for all. They have no reason to hold out for $500, $1000, or even $18,000 for a week. Sell it to the first person who will buy and pay the annual dues because giving it away to someone for free beats the heck out of keeping it an HOA week with no income generated for the resort.
> 
> Cliff on the other hand has plenty incentives to not sell weeks. As long as he owns enough weeks he controls the resort. He controls the resort, he keeps Outfield selling Festiva Points to deeded owners, he keeps himself and Outfield owners/employees as trustees at the resort making all decisions, and he doesn't have to pay anything ever for any weeks he owns that remain unsold. If he sells too many he no longer will control the resort.



Cliff may need to expand his suit. Maybe that will lower my legal costs.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Cliff may need to expand his suit. Maybe that will lower my legal costs.



We are simply expressing our personal opinions. As far as I understand the law, that is legal.


----------



## Sou13

Quote:
Originally Posted by *vivmarch*
_You make an excellent point.  To me it suggests that there are perhaps not as many unhappy owners as there are made out to be?

FYI: the other owner who put me on to this site wasn't unhappy.  He just mentioned the site because it had been pointed out to him and he was passing it on._​
I guess that's your answer to my question, but not quite.  How did the other not-unhappy owner have it pointed out to him?  By an unhappy owner?


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Oh, now we have legal threat of libel. Nice.
> 
> Let me clarify my opinions, and make the following statements in the good faith and the reasonable belief that they are true. These statements form the basis for my personal opinion.  By and large, as a private individual, I am relying on the statements written here on the board by you and others. Feel free to rebut any of my statements, and in regard to any facts you may present, I will gladly withdrawn my statements and issue an apology.
> 
> First, regarding your abuse of power. Here is the information that I have that support my personal opinion:
> 
> You have been unwilling to share legal opinions provided to you as a Trustee by HOA legal counsel regarding the your non-payment of m/f with regard to developer inventory.
> 
> You have refused to provide the members list to authorized members of HOA. This is in contravention of the section 32 of the Mass statute Chapter 183B.
> 
> You have refused to allow members to inspect the records of the corporation. Again in contravention of the Section 5.10 of the By-Laws and section 30 of Mass statute Chapter 183B.
> 
> Despite your illegal refusal to provide the members list, you have refused to provide an alternate procedure that would allow concerned members to communicate with each other regarding HOA business.
> 
> In regard to your unjust enrichment, you have failed to document the legality of your non-payment of m/f, which allows you to retain ownership of your inventory. Said inventory is benefiting from improvements that are being paid for by the special assessment levied on owners at the resort, and for which you claim to be exempt.
> 
> The special assessments levied on these other owners is improving the value of property that you retain ownership of. Your claim of exemption from sharing in the expense of improving said property is a result of a flawed contract, and is unconscionable. This is the basis for my statement of unjust enrichment, in that your property is being improved at the expense of other owners at the resort.
> 
> The above are personal statements made by me, a private individual, based on the information provided in this forum. They are made with no malice. They are personal opinions.
> 
> p.s. why are my opinions so important to you Cliff....



Eric, I agree with your opinions, thus my statements of opinion often mirror yours. From the information that has been presented by owners on this forum and from information I have read on other forums I don't see how any impartial reader could form a different opinion after assimilating the posts on this thread. 

Cliff has admitted that he pays no fees or assessments on his inventory. Cliff has admitted that himself and the trustees (Outfield employess/owners) that Cliff appointed (no vote from owners) decided that the resort needed to be improved, that they needed to assess to improve the resort, and they assessed all owners (except himself) with no vote from owners about what needed upgrading (if anything) and how much owners wanted to spend on upgrades. This all was acknowledged by Cliff and other owners here. If Cliff is selling weeks at the resort (which he says he is), and he gets to force all owners (but himself) to pay to upgrade the resort and the units at the resort, and if he then gets to sell the upgraded weeks he owns at an upgraded resort that he didn't contribute a dollar to upgrade himself, then what other opinion could one form?

I also have the opinion that Outfield/Festiva threatens owners with mistatements about the worthless value of owner's deeded weeks and with threats of higher assessments if the owners don't swap to points. I also feel that they are mislead with statements that weeks will become useless both within the resort and within RCI as both are discontinuing weeks. I have formulated my opinion from the posts made by numerous owners who have been through the Outfield/Festiva sales presentation who have posted their experiences here and on other sites. After reading about what owners say that Outfield/Festiva has told them, and after reading that Cliff acknowledges that has occurred and he has fired salesmen and warned salesman to stop such activites, what other opinion could be formed by the concensus?

Festiva has been sued and settled in Missouri for false and misleading sales tactics and had to pay for misdeeds. Festiva is being sued in St Maarten at the Atrium resort for raising MF's beyond levels allowed in the owner's contract and for assessing double the annual MF's as soon as they acquired control of the resort. When Festiva took over the Church Street Inn in Charleston they immediatelly raised MF's drastically and assessed to upgrade. They told owners RCI required them to upgrade or else they would be downgraded or dropped according to some posts from owners I have read. They also told the resort that they had no reserves and had to increase reserves through increased MF's. When Festive took over my resort at Blue Ridge Village they immediatelly took over the board filling it with Festiva mgt/employess, placed Festiva mgt as the mgt company for the resort, raised MF's, and started talking about having to upgrade the resort because of RCI's requirements (IMO this is a trend). At BRV they didn't assess immediatelly because they said the resort had enough reserves to begin the upgrades. We had no vote and many owners I talked to agreed that we didn't need to upgrade anything. Upgrades like granite counters at a rustic mountain resort helps Festiva sell weeks through the WOW factor as people tour the demo units and no one else IMO. After Festiva runs through our reserves I am sure that we will be assessed for upgrades and we will then have to replentish our reserves that Festiva depleted. What opinion other than Festiva increases MF's to make money for their mgt company (or because they can't manage a resort efficiently for a reasonable MF), and that Festiva uses the RCI threat to upgrade at every resort they take over? This tactic has allegedly been used at the three resorts I am familiar with, and from what I have read here it is being used by Cliff/Outfield/Festiva at Southscape and Sandcastle. It appears that they always come into a resort, buy inventory, raise MF's immediatelly, assess to upgrade, and then sell weeks that are being upgraded at current owner's expense as Points. They get to sell inventory made more valuable by upgrades without paying the upgrades. After seeing this happen at 3 to 5 resorts what opinion could one form other than this is their business model? They have a track record of buying resorts and profiting on the backs of owners by charging owners assessments to upgrade and by charging higher MF's each and every year. I have not seen a single resort they have acquired where you couldn't find owners posting about them doing these things. Profit at newly acquired resorts is made both from sales and from assessing and increasing MF's IMO. That is the opinion I have formed. Other than Cliff is there anyone who has formed a different opinion?

My opinion is that Festiva/NEVS both come into resorts, take control of the HOA's, increase MF's without allowing votes from owners, hire their own mgt without searching for the most efficient mgt company, assess to upgrade wthout any votes from owners, they upgrade by choosing a construction company of their choice without requiring closed bids offered to multiple construction firms to get the lowest prices, and they gain more and more control of the resorts because everytime an owner converts to Festiva, Festiva becomes the deeded owner of another week at the resort. My opinion is that having Festiva take over your resort is not good for anyone but Festiva. Please everyone keep posting your thoughts and experiences and perhaps my opinion could be changed. However from what I have seen I doubt that my opinion will change because the business practices of Outfield/Festiva/NEVS will remain totally for the benefit of themselves to the detriment of the owners, IN MY OPINION.


----------



## vivmarch

Sou13 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *vivmarch*
> _You make an excellent point.  To me it suggests that there are perhaps not as many unhappy owners as there are made out to be?
> 
> FYI: the other owner who put me on to this site wasn't unhappy.  He just mentioned the site because it had been pointed out to him and he was passing it on._​
> I guess that's your answer to my question, but not quite.  How did the other not-unhappy owner have it pointed out to him?  By an unhappy owner?



I have no idea as I didn't think to ask.  The woman in the unit next to us originally asked me if I'd heard of the site, which I hadn't.  A day or so later when we bumped into her and her husband in the parking lot her husband mentioned if we'd looked at the site yet.  I told him we hadn't because we were on vacation with the kids and we have the rule of no video games, computer or tv whilst on vacation (which I could enforce that the rest of the year too), but I'd probably take look when we got home.  The rest is history.


----------



## vivmarch

Fig said:


> Okay, it isn't the first time I have suggested that Cliff might be posting as Viv...and a few other names...now he seems to have lost track of what names he is posting under so the stories can be consistent post to post.
> 
> Viv is now saying a "he'' introduced her/him onto the site....her/his first post said it was the "woman next door"....gee that might be a detail I would recall if I had truly had a conversation in the first place.
> 
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=752563&postcount=705
> 
> Poor Cliff he is spinning so much...like the tale that Outfield Marketing has an office somewhere outside of Denton, TX until I pointed out his own legal documents said it was that exact same address or that a timeshare is not real estate when his own website claims it is....he is tripping over his own yarns.
> 
> Take a nice long breath Cliff...relax and compose.



My husband asks that if I have to actually be someone else, could it please be a cute babe and not a man?!


----------



## JackB62

*Not that Cliff would give it to us anyway but...*

are we allowed the list of NEVS weeks?

As fellow interval owners, it would be nice to be able to suggest a unit and week that is available.


----------



## TUGBrian

ok then, I previously stayed out of this until TUG recieved a nice phone call this afternoon causing me to do more research on the thread.

so here goes what we have found.

NEVMSLLC has quite a few IP addresses he/she has used to post on this thread.  registration for htis name was on 3/27/09 from a new england comcast IP.

these ip addresses match quite a number of other members...many of which also post in this thread. (how bizarre and coincidental)

First one is Massman631  registered 2/16/09 from a MA comcast ip
Second one is VivMarch  registered on 7/7/2009 from a MA verizon ip
third one is Wfweinstein 7/10/09 from a  MA verizon ip

Each of these members has posted and or registered from the same ip addresses more than once.

Just a bit of info I felt was important to the flow of this conversation.


----------



## Fig

TUGBrian said:


> ok then, I previously stayed out of this until TUG recieved a nice phone call this afternoon causing me to do more research on the thread.
> 
> so here goes what we have found.
> 
> NEVMSLLC has quite a few IP addresses he/she has used to post on this thread.  registration for htis name was on 3/27/09 from a new england comcast IP.
> 
> these ip addresses match quite a number of other members...many of which also post in this thread. (how bizarre and coincidental)
> 
> First one is Massman631  registered 2/16/09 from a MA comcast ip
> Second one is VivMarch  registered on 7/7/2009 from a MA verizon ip
> third one is Wfweinstein 7/10/09 from a  MA verizon ip
> 
> Each of these members has posted and or registered from the same ip addresses more than once.
> 
> Just a bit of info I felt was important to the flow of this conversation.



Thanks, Brian.


----------



## Fig

vivmarch said:


> My husband asks that if I have to actually be someone else, could it please be a cute babe and not a man?!



Could you bring Cliff back for us and have him answer some questions... honestly...from owners..as he said he would?


----------



## tombo

TUGBrian said:


> ok then, I previously stayed out of this until TUG recieved a nice phone call this afternoon causing me to do more research on the thread.
> 
> so here goes what we have found.
> 
> NEVMSLLC has quite a few IP addresses he/she has used to post on this thread.  registration for htis name was on 3/27/09 from a new england comcast IP.
> 
> these ip addresses match quite a number of other members...many of which also post in this thread. (how bizarre and coincidental)
> 
> First one is Massman631  registered 2/16/09 from a MA comcast ip
> Second one is VivMarch  registered on 7/7/2009 from a MA verizon ip
> third one is Wfweinstein 7/10/09 from a  MA verizon ip
> 
> Each of these members has posted and or registered from the same ip addresses more than once.
> 
> Just a bit of info I felt was important to the flow of this conversation.



Thanks Brian.

The indignation he showed when it was said that he might be Massman, VivMarch, capeguitarguy, and MFweinstein was very convincing on line to some who felt sorry for these new guest posters. Those of us who were paying close attention to the posts Cliff made and the posts made by the fake posters were always pretty sure that they were posted by Cliff, but without your confirmation we could never have proved it beyond a shadow of doubt.

To be pretty sure that Cliff was posting under fake names cost us the time it took to read those ridiculous fake posts. To have it verified positivelly that he was in fact hiding behind those fake screen names is PRICELESS!!!! :hysterical:


----------



## tombo

vivmarch said:


> I have no idea as I didn't think to ask.  The woman in the unit next to us originally asked me if I'd heard of the site, which I hadn't.  A day or so later when we bumped into her and her husband in the parking lot her husband mentioned if we'd looked at the site yet.  I told him we hadn't because we were on vacation with the kids and we have the rule of no video games, computer or tv whilst on vacation (which I could enforce that the rest of the year too), but I'd probably take look when we got home.  The rest is history.



Just in case Cliff tries to get rid of these priceless fake posts, here is one one saved in my post.

 CliffViv said "the rest is history". What is history is anyone here believing anything Cliff says if he even has the guts to post here again after being exposed. Of course from now on we will never know for sure if any new poster is Cliff  sneaking back into the thread under a new and improved alias. I think every now and then I will just say Hi to Cliff in case he is amongst us,


Hi CliffVivMassCapeStein, etc.


----------



## tombo

vivmarch said:


> My husband asks that if I have to actually be someone else, could it please be a cute babe and not a man?!



And another cliffisiscm. :rofl:

Cliff, you can put on a dress and some makeup, but I have seen your picture on the capeguitarguy site and I doubt that you could become a cute babe, and without major surgery the not being a man thing will be impossible to acheive. It is nice to know that you are married to a husband. I think Massachussetts is one of the states that legalized gay marriage. Congratulations Mrs Hagberg and give our regards to the Mister.


----------



## tombo

Fig said:


> Could you bring Cliff back for us and have him answer some questions... honestly...from owners..as he said he would?



I can answer them for you as  fake Cliff.

We are improving the resort. I am going to sue Eric with my fake attorney identity of Mfweinstein. I am selling winter weeks for $75000 on the cape. In case you don't believe me, I sold 14 weeks at Southscape and 23 at Sandcastle today for big bucks. I have no ties to Outfield or Festiva. I don't answer legal questions under my real screen name. My husband wants me to be a cute babe. I play the guitar when I am in one of my different personalities. I am like Abe Lincoln and never tell a lie. 

Fig as long as you are an owner I will be glad to answer your questions. I will not tell you truthfull answers unless it suits me, but I will make up some sort of an answer for you that makes me look good as long as you are an owner. Heck if you are an owner I will make up a new online person for you to talk to who feels just like I do, but is of a different sex. My Viv fake screen name is a cute babe. Perhaps we could do some online dating.

This was a totally fake response from a totally fake Cliff.

Sincerely,

Fake Cliff


----------



## ecwinch

Now we should start a pool on which of his alternate identities will appear and attempt to explain this one.

My money is on a new "owner" appearing, and one who loves all the changes that Cliff has made.

He/she will have PHD in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering and will offer a scientific explanation for the overlap of IP addresses and that it is commonplace.

I seriously doubt that Cliff will have the moral fortitude to reappear, unless it is in a drive-by posting....


----------



## Sou13

*Reply to TUGBrian*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *TUGBrian*
_First one is Massman631 registered 2/16/09 from a MA comcast ip
Second one is VivMarch registered on 7/7/2009 from a MA verizon ip
third one is Wfweinstein 7/10/09 from a MA verizon ip_​
I was suspicious of massman631 but rather than discourage vivmarch from posting I decided to ask some questions.  When NEVMSLLC used the pronoun "she" I was confused.  Why didn't he answer the questions?  Then it occurred to me that "vivmarch" might be "Vivian March" but there is no such deed recorded at https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.PGM.

I suspect that NEVMSLLC has infiltrated my "Concerned Southcape Interval Owners" elist and has been receiving my messages since massman631 replied to my email message.  He no longer needed to pose as "capeguitarguy" if I wasn't suspicious of "massman631" now did he?

We all make mistakes.  I've made a lot of them, but so has NEVMSLLC.  His biggest one was to team up with Outfield Marketing with the intention of scamming Southcape and Sandcastle owners out of their deeded weeks.  Hopefully we'll all get "mad enough" to take legal action against them.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TUGBrian*
> _First one is Massman631 registered 2/16/09 from a MA comcast ip
> Second one is VivMarch registered on 7/7/2009 from a MA verizon ip
> third one is Wfweinstein 7/10/09 from a MA verizon ip_​
> I was suspicious of massman631 but rather than discourage vivmarch from posting I decided to ask some questions.  When NEVMSLLC used the pronoun "she" I was confused.  Why didn't he answer the questions?  Then it occurred to me that "vivmarch" might be "Vivian March" but there is no such deed recorded at https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.PGM.
> 
> I suspect that NEVMSLLC has infiltrated my "Concerned Southcape Interval Owners" elist and has been receiving my messages since massman631 replied to my email message.  He no longer needed to pose as "capeguitarguy" if I wasn't suspicious of "massman631" now did he?
> 
> We all make mistakes.  I've made a lot of them, but so has NEVMSLLC.  His biggest one was to team up with Outfield Marketing with the intention of scamming Southcape and Sandcastle owners out of their deeded weeks.  Hopefully we'll all get "mad enough" to take legal action against them.



I would not read it that way. Beyond personally contacting each member, there is no way you could have vetted the e-list. 

The disclosure that meaningful resistance is forming is why Cliff has become more hostile. He was willing to verbally spar in this thread as long as he thought it would not lead to anything. But now that resistance is organizing, his tone has changed.  His arrogance will be his downfall.


----------



## Sou13

*Nearly 200 unhappy owners*

Can anyone who was at the owners' meeting recall the name of the young woman who had to leave the meeting in order to go for the copies of  the minutes from the previous year? 

One owner has complained to me that the attitude of owners was "contentious" which is why I can't recall any "happy" owners who made it a point to be there this year.


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> I can answer them for you as  fake Cliff.
> 
> We are improving the resort. I am going to sue Eric with my fake attorney identity of Mfweinstein. I am selling winter weeks for $75000 on the cape. In case you don't believe me, I sold 14 weeks at Southscape and 23 at Sandcastle today for big bucks. I have no ties to Outfield or Festiva. I don't answer legal questions under my real screen name. My husband wants me to be a cute babe. I play the guitar when I am in one of my different personalities. I am like Abe Lincoln and never tell a lie.
> 
> Fig as long as you are an owner I will be glad to answer your questions. I will not tell you truthfull answers unless it suits me, but I will make up some sort of an answer for you that makes me look good as long as you are an owner. Heck if you are an owner I will make up a new online person for you to talk to who feels just like I do, but is of a different sex. My Viv fake screen name is a cute babe. Perhaps we could do some online dating.
> 
> This was a totally fake response from a totally fake Cliff.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Fake Cliff



Dear Fake Cliff,

Thank you for responding to my post. I must be honest here...I am really a she and not a Mr. Fig as you referred to me. Perhaps you have forgotten?

Remember when you joined Sou13's real email list as Capeguitarguy? Well, I was correponding with Sou13 then and mentioned that you had not filed a "Change in Directors" form with the Secretary of the Commonwealth and yet were sending out assesments etc before having done the legal change in directors. I suggested Sou not post the info to the board to tip you off...Sou did distribute the email to the list...well, you took rather quick action and filed the forms after the email. I signed my email, "Cathy" which is my name...and my email address starts with Fig, but you must have overlooked that.

The really funny thing is, after filing these forms, you tried to say that Outfield Marketing's sales office was not the little tool shed in Denton, TX...when you registered that address for two of your directors...all I had to do was lift that address of the form you filed.

Guess you're not big on details. Fun talking to all of youse.

Cathy


----------



## Fig

london said:


> I have been timesharing since 1991.
> 
> The upkeep of the units and grounds are important to all owners.
> 
> Sometimes assessments are needed to complete renovations.
> 
> It appears that this resort will be in a much better condition in a year or two.
> 
> I suspect the majority of owners use the weeks, rather than trade them.
> 
> I think this resort will continue for many years to come.



London, I am curious about your perspective on things. You are clearly a long-time owner at several resorts, yet did not seem to be at all concerned about the story that was emerging on these boards. Are you a friend of Cliff or Tom Franks?...you don't have to answer, if you don't want to...but your desire to put an end to the discussions given that it was alleged owners were being taken advantage of kind of was out of the ordinary. There didn't seem to be any other non-owners following the boards who seemed not to see the issues at stake. Just curious.

Cathy


----------



## tombo

Fig said:


> Dear Fake Cliff,
> 
> Thank you for responding to my post. I must be honest here...I am really a she and not a Mr. Fig as you referred to me. Perhaps you have forgotten?
> 
> Remember when you joined Sou13's real email list as Capeguitarguy? Well, I was correponding with Sou13 then and mentioned that you had not filed a "Change in Directors" form with the Secretary of the Commonwealth and yet were sending out assesments etc before having done the legal change in directors. I suggested Sou not post the info to the board to tip you off...Sou did distribute the email to the list...well, you took rather quick action and filed the forms after the email. I signed my email, "Cathy" which is my name...and my email address starts with Fig, but you must have overlooked that.
> 
> The really funny thing is, after filing these forms, you tried to say that Outfield Marketing's sales office was not the little tool shed in Denton, TX...when you registered that address for two of your directors...all I had to do was lift that address of the form you filed.
> 
> Guess you're not big on details. Fun talking to all of youse.
> 
> Cathy



Dear Cathy (Fig),

Outfield has many sales offices throughout the world. The Texas office is one of our smaller offices and slipped my mind until you reminded me of it's existence. You should visit our Chicago office in the Sears Tower, our Trump Tower location in New York, our overseas offices in Buckingham Palace, the Louvre, The Taj Mahal and my personal favorite office which is located in the Great Pyramids. We have hundreds of offices in hundreds of countries.

I did forget to file the change of directors form, so what?  I really feel that I can do anything I want with regards to Southscape and Sandcastle without bothering with uneeded details like the State's laws, rules, and regulations. I am omnipotent. I will assess when I want, I will assess whatever amount per week that I want to assess, and I will upgrade or not upgrade anything as I see fit. You as an owner will pay or I will sick the collections dept on you. 

Capeguitarguy is my identical twin, not me. Capeguitarguy joined with Sou's group not me. Viv is my identical twin sister. WFwienstein is also an identical twin brother. I am one of the Octomom's 8 children. We all share a single computer and a single guitar. Capeguitarguy joined Sou's group because even my identical twin brother thinks that I am ripping owners at Southscape and Sandcastle off. I am ripping everyone off, he is correct. I would like to thank my brother for tipping me off about possible actions a couple of disgruntled owners might try to take against me. 

The majority of owners are very happy with me, NEVVSS, Outlaw Mktg, and Festival points. Most owners don't want to have a board elected by them, they want me to appoint myself and my business partners as trustees. Most owners want to be assessed with no input. Most owners want their MF's to increase drastically each year. Most owners are very happy to give me total control of their resort and most owners want me to spend as I see fit. Most owners are glad that I contribute nothing on the weeks I own to the upkeep or upgrading of my resort. You and Sou are in the minority. I talk to owners every day and they LOVE ME!!!!!!! I am the greatest. Drink the Kool-aid.

Sincerely,

Fake Cliff


----------



## Fig

tombo said:


> Dear Cathy (Fig),
> 
> Outfield has many sales offices throughout the world. The Texas office is one of our smaller offices and slipped my mind until you reminded me of it's existence. You should visit our Chicago office in the Sears Tower, our Trump Tower location in New York, our overseas offices in Buckingham Palace, the Louvre, The Taj Mahal and my personal favorite office which is located in the Great Pyramids. We have hundreds of offices in hundreds of countries.
> 
> I did forget to file the change of directors form, so what?  I really feel that I can do anything I want with regards to Southscape and Sandcastle without bothering with uneeded details like the State's laws, rules, and regulations. I am omnipotent. I will assess when I want, I will assess whatever amount per week that I want to assess, and I will upgrade or not upgrade anything as I see fit. You as an owner will pay or I will sick the collections dept on you.
> 
> Capeguitarguy is my identical twin, not me. Capeguitarguy joined with Sou's group not me. Viv is my identical twin sister. WFwienstein is also an identical twin brother. I am one of the Octomom's 8 children. We all share a single computer and a single guitar. Capeguitarguy joined Sou's group because even my identical twin brother thinks that I am ripping owners at Southscape and Sandcastle off. I am ripping everyone off, he is correct. I would like to thank my brother for tipping me off about possible actions a couple of disgruntled owners might try to take against me.
> 
> The majority of owners are very happy with me, NEVVSS, Outlaw Mktg, and Festival points. Most owners don't want to have a board elected by them, they want me to appoint myself and my business partners as trustees. Most owners want to be assessed with no input. Most owners want their MF's to increase drastically each year. Most owners are very happy to give me total control of their resort and most owners want me to spend as I see fit. Most owners are glad that I contribute nothing on the weeks I own to the upkeep or upgrading of my resort. You and Sou are in the minority. I talk to owners every day and they LOVE ME!!!!!!! I am the greatest. Drink the Kool-aid.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Fake Cliff



OMG, Tombo, I needed a good laugh, thanks! Cathy


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> Now we should start a pool on which of his alternate identities will appear and attempt to explain this one.
> 
> My money is on a new "owner" appearing, and one who loves all the changes that Cliff has made.
> 
> He/she will have PHD in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering and will offer a scientific explanation for the overlap of IP addresses and that it is commonplace.
> 
> I seriously doubt that Cliff will have the moral fortitude to reappear, unless it is in a drive-by posting....



A PHD in Computer Science would be a hard one for Cliff to pull off. I don't think he was kidding when he accused us through Wfweinstein of coining the phrase "Troll"...not knowing that it is a standard internet term.

The internet and Google will make it harder and harder for Outfield Marketing, Festiva and folks like Cliff to do business as usual. People start web pages, complain on boards, access public documents and soon a story emerges that the creators have no ability to alter.

Others go to the internet, before they are scamed, see the scam for what it is and say "no thank you"...like these posters discussing our friends at Festiva.
http://800notes.com/Phone.aspx/1-888-536-3314


----------



## TUGBrian

added note...

capeguitarguy also registered from the same IP as massman631...

and also NEVMSLCC has also posted from that IP.  (mass. comcast)


----------



## TUGBrian

its is also important to note that after going through this thread again (all 800+ unique posts) that some of the comments from both sides are borderline if not over the line of violating the "be courteous" rule on TUG.

Please keep personal comments and or attacks to yourself, and stick with the continued public discussion of the topic(s) at hand.

futher posts containing personal attacks will be removed.


----------



## ecwinch

TUGBrian said:


> its is also important to note that after going through this thread again (all 800+ unique posts) that some of the comments from both sides are borderline if not over the line of violating the "be courteous" rule on TUG.
> 
> Please keep personal comments and or attacks to yourself, and stick with the continued public discussion of the topic(s) at hand.
> 
> futher posts containing personal attacks will be removed.



I agree. The primary contributors to this thread need to make sure the discussion is fact based and not personal in nature.


----------



## bhound54

*Enough of fake and over-the-top posts*

Hello Friends,

I agree with TUGBrian and Eric.  The tone of many of the messages and "fake replies" are over the top, increase clutter, and reduce the usefulness of this list as a way to keep updated on our resort.  

For the record, my wife and I own two weeks (Unit 6, weeks 34-35) and have been going to Southcape for 25 years, never trading our units.  We have attended several owners meetings including the last one.  While none of us are happy about the increase in the MF and the special assessment, we were concerned about the condition of the resort.  My wife and I applaud the efforts of the current resort management in tackling the renovations, as well as the sewage and parking lot suit.

- Bhound54


----------



## tombo

Even in his supposed absence, I somehow feel that Cliff is still here with us........

As I said on a previous post, I will say hi to Cliff every now and then in case he is visiting us occassionally.

Hi CliffVivMassCapeStein, etc. wherever you are.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Now we should start a pool on which of his alternate identities will appear and attempt to explain this one.
> 
> My money is on a new "owner" appearing, and one who loves all the changes that Cliff has made
> .



Do we have a winner aready?


----------



## Fig

TUGBrian said:


> its is also important to note that after going through this thread again (all 800+ unique posts) that some of the comments from both sides are borderline if not over the line of violating the "be courteous" rule on TUG.
> 
> Please keep personal comments and or attacks to yourself, and stick with the continued public discussion of the topic(s) at hand.
> 
> futher posts containing personal attacks will be removed.



Thanks, Brian. You may want to at least keep a backup of the posts you remove...even if Cliff calls as he has done in the past and begs you to remove his posts. Any lawyer pursuing the case might find it of interest.  Has Cliff has engaged in a internet ploy called "astroturfing?" A firm in Waltham, MA, a few miles from Cliff recently was slapped with a heafty fine from the New York AG  Andrew Cuomo for the practice. Here's the article.

http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/07/16/new-york-settles-with-firm-posting-fake-reviews

I have tried to keep my posts factual and in a kidding tone when I took issue with Cliff. I apologize if I have veered from that intent. That said, this thread has got to be one of the more interesting uncoverings of developer tactics on TUG or the internet. There it is...the whole story from a puzzling letter on blank letterhead asking for money for Southcape to lots of facts about the parties involved and their stake in the deal...right down to the developer faking posts in support of his tactics. I am waiting for the movie.


----------



## tombo

Fig said:


> That said, this thread has got to be one of the more interesting uncoverings of developer tactics on TUG or the internet. There it is...the whole story from a puzzling letter on blank letterhead asking for money for Southcape to lots of facts about the parties involved and their stake in the deal...right down to the developer faking posts in support of his tactics. I am waiting for the movie.




Top 10 titles for the movie:

1.The many faces of Capeguitarguy. A story about multiple personality disorders on the web.

2. Cliffgate

3. NEVVS in Never was, Never will be land.

4. Delusions of Grandeur

5. Imposters in the Outfield

6. Un -True Lies

7. Catch me if you can. The story of Capeguitarguy

8. Don't haggle with the Hag

9. The fleecing of Southscape

10. The rise and fall of my credibility. A True Story from the annals of TUG.

Add your own titles to the list. Who will play the lead character? Who will play all of the imaginary characters? I guess the imaginary cast could be animated since there never was anything real about them anyway. This is a movie I will pay to see and I will own that DVD. 

Bonus title:

11. Outfield's imaginary Field of Dreams

Brian, this is a humorous list based on the posts made on this thread. Like Letterman's top 10, it is purely for the sake of humor.


----------



## JackB62

*Southcape Rental Income*

I posted and rec'd this info on the Points System thread:

Bill4728 Quote:
Originally Posted by JackB62  
I am a Southcape interval owner and I'd like it if someone can advise me on a points system question.

If I have Festiva points and I book a week at Southcape, what does Southcape get in the form of rental cash?

Does NEVMS just say, "thanks, you owe us 500 points." Or, does Festiva have to give Southcape a $ amount for the week? 

Normally, with point systems, the system works like this:
- The owners in the point system, have their ownership rights transfered to the system. So when they reserve a week at one of the resorts, the systems uses one of the weeks that were transfered to them to fulfill the request. So Festiva wouldn't be renting a week from Southcape just using a week like they were the owner. 

**I'm not sure this is true for Festiva but it is true for most all point systems. 


PS Festiva can only allow reservations into a week which they have. So if all the summer week owners at the resorts say NO to festiva, then Festiva will not have any summer weeks and therefore can not allow a festiva owner to reserve a summer week. 

**********************************************************

*Now last year at Southcape, over $300,000 was income from rentals.
Cliff Hagberg has graciously decided to give our resort the rental income from the 500+ weeks he owns. But, think about it, if most of those weeks are used by Festiva, the resort will get very little rental income.*


----------



## Fig

JackB62 said:


> I posted and rec'd this info on the Points System thread:
> 
> Bill4728 Quote:
> Originally Posted by JackB62
> I am a Southcape interval owner and I'd like it if someone can advise me on a points system question.
> 
> If I have Festiva points and I book a week at Southcape, what does Southcape get in the form of rental cash?
> 
> Does NEVMS just say, "thanks, you owe us 500 points." Or, does Festiva have to give Southcape a $ amount for the week?
> 
> Normally, with point systems, the system works like this:
> - The owners in the point system, have their ownership rights transfered to the system. So when they reserve a week at one of the resorts, the systems uses one of the weeks that were transfered to them to fulfill the request. So Festiva wouldn't be renting a week from Southcape just using a week like they were the owner.
> 
> **I'm not sure this is true for Festiva but it is true for most all point systems.
> 
> 
> PS Festiva can only allow reservations into a week which they have. So if all the summer week owners at the resorts say NO to festiva, then Festiva will not have any summer weeks and therefore can not allow a festiva owner to reserve a summer week.
> 
> **********************************************************
> 
> *Now last year at Southcape, over $300,000 was income from rentals.
> Cliff Hagberg has graciously decided to give our resort the rental income from the 500+ weeks he owns. But, think about it, if most of those weeks are used by Festiva, the resort will get very little rental income.*



I may be incorrect on this, but aren't NEVS owned weeks distinct from Festiva weeks? I thought Festiva weeks were weeks transfered to a trust only when Outfield Marketing succeeded in getting an owner to give up a deed? The NEVS inventory is off-season from what I gather and there is a question as to how much rental income will come from those weeks as there is very little demand for Cape accomodations in winter...their main value seems to be to control the resort, if I am reading other posts correctly. Any clarification is welcomed.


----------



## ecwinch

JackB62 said:


> I posted and rec'd this info on the Points System thread:
> 
> Bill4728 Quote:
> Originally Posted by JackB62
> I am a Southcape interval owner and I'd like it if someone can advise me on a points system question.
> 
> If I have Festiva points and I book a week at Southcape, what does Southcape get in the form of rental cash?
> 
> Does NEVMS just say, "thanks, you owe us 500 points." Or, does Festiva have to give Southcape a $ amount for the week?
> 
> Normally, with point systems, the system works like this:
> - The owners in the point system, have their ownership rights transfered to the system. So when they reserve a week at one of the resorts, the systems uses one of the weeks that were transfered to them to fulfill the request. So Festiva wouldn't be renting a week from Southcape just using a week like they were the owner.
> 
> **I'm not sure this is true for Festiva but it is true for most all point systems.
> 
> 
> PS Festiva can only allow reservations into a week which they have. So if all the summer week owners at the resorts say NO to festiva, then Festiva will not have any summer weeks and therefore can not allow a festiva owner to reserve a summer week.
> 
> **********************************************************
> 
> *Now last year at Southcape, over $300,000 was income from rentals.
> Cliff Hagberg has graciously decided to give our resort the rental income from the 500+ weeks he owns. But, think about it, if most of those weeks are used by Festiva, the resort will get very little rental income.*



Here is my personal opinion, based on the information available on this thread:

Cliff owns 500+ weeks. I suspect that the majority of that inventory are off-season weeks, that are marginally salable. So Cliff has an inherent challenge on how to monetize those weeks in order to recoup his investment.

This situation is the one faced by most of resort developers. So the smart guys have come up with a way - convert those weeks into points, and then in turn sell those points, rather than the underlying week. Now you can package enough points to effectively be selling a red summer week at Southcape.  Only one problem - the points system would have few red summer weeks, since most of those weeks are held by fixed week owners. So the challenge is to get some desirable weeks into the pts system. How can we do that?

So here comes Outfield with the answer.  They will fly around the country and  convince owners of those desirable summer weeks to exchange their week for points. And reports received here are that they use questionable scare tactics to do so. And then Southcape would need to pay Outfield. So you come up with a conversion fee.

But wait - that would not make sense. Why would an owner of a desirable week convert into a points system, just so they could get that week back? 

So here comes Festiva with the answer. They will convert the week into Festiva points, and then they can use those points at a number of excellent resorts in other locations.

So you have Outfield out collecting the "conversion fee" (their commission) for signing people up for Festiva.  Festiva gets more inventory. 

And when Festiva needs to sell points to new members or more points to existing members, then Cliff can convert his off-season inventory into Festiva points. One limitation of these points systems, is they have to hold enough fixed week inventory to back the points they are selling. 

This in effect becomes the Ponzi scheme that we are warned about. In this whole process, no additional desirable weeks are created. You just a growing pool of owners competing for the same number of fixed weeks. 

Owners think they are buying enough points to obtain a summer Cape Cod week, but it is an illusion. They are buying enough points to compete for that inventory, but like musical chairs, in that process there will be winners and losers.


----------



## tombo

Fig said:


> I may be incorrect on this, but aren't NEVS owned weeks distinct from Festiva weeks? I thought Festiva weeks were weeks transfered to a trust only when Outfield Marketing succeeded in getting an owner to give up a deed? The NEVS inventory is off-season from what I gather and there is a question as to how much rental income will come from those weeks as there is very little demand for Cape accomodations in winter...their main value seems to be to control the resort, if I am reading other posts correctly. Any clarification is welcomed.





			
				 jackb62 said:
			
		

> Now last year at Southcape, over $300,000 was income from rentals.
> Cliff Hagberg has graciously decided to give our resort the rental income from the 500+ weeks he owns. But, think about it, if most of those weeks are used by Festiva, the resort will get very little rental income. .





I think that the $300,000 in come figure came from Cliff. We all know that figure is no where near correct if it came from Cliff. Since they will not give an audited accounting of the resorts revenues and expenses, why should any figure they spit out be believed? 

From what we can ascertain, NEVS owns about 500 off season weeks which was the unsold inventory at the resort that NEVMS purchased. These weeks are not Festiva points and these weeks pay no MF's or assessments. Cliff allows the resort to get the rental income (which is probably minimal in reality) because if this thing goes to court he will have a harder time justifying not paying MF's or assessments on the weeks he owns if he is making rental income off of them. He will come way ahead if he saves paying the assessments and MF's on the weeks he owns by not making a little rental income. 

This was not a gracious gift to the resort, this was a decision of which is cheaper for me IMO. It is cheaper to pay ZERO MF's or assessments on all the weeks he owns than to pay all the annual fees on all of his weeks and try to offset that expense with the limited income that his offseason rentals bring in. If he paid $600 in annual MF's per week it would cost him $300,000 a year. If he paid $800 per week in assessments it would cost him $400,000 a year. His generous donation is justifying him saving about $700,000 he owes the resort for weeks he owns. If he was paying what is owed on each week he owns there would probably not be any need for assessments. The owners are all subsidizing the weeks NEVS owns that pay nothing to maintain or upgrade the resort. There is nothing generous being done for owners at Southscape or Sandcastle by Festiva, Outfield, NEVS, or Cliff IMO.


----------



## ecwinch

Fig said:


> I may be incorrect on this, but aren't NEVS owned weeks distinct from Festiva weeks? I thought Festiva weeks were weeks transfered to a trust only when Outfield Marketing succeeded in getting an owner to give up a deed? The NEVS inventory is off-season from what I gather and there is a question as to how much rental income will come from those weeks as there is very little demand for Cape accomodations in winter...their main value seems to be to control the resort, if I am reading other posts correctly. Any clarification is welcomed.



When Cliff converts the off-season inventory into Festiva points, he is not losing any control. The Festiva Trust would vote those weeks. Their goals are mutually aligned.

The plan is retain control of the resort, while converting his inventory into Festiva points that can be marketed by Outfield.

It really is genius when you think of it. I own 500 off-season weeks. They are really tough to sell though.

But those weeks represent enough points to convert them into large points packages that would allow the holder to obtain a prime summer week. So I can effectively market it has a prime summer week.

So instead of selling an off-season week (lets say 3000 Festiva pts), I can sell a 6000 pt Festiva package. And I can tell the buyer that you can reserve a prime summer week with your ownership.

The points system is effectively allowing Cliff to convert his off-season inventory into bright shiny prime season inventory. But it all hinges on his ability to convert some prime season owners into points. It would be a mis-representation to sell those points, if their was no summer inventory in the points system. So he has to get some conversions going to support the plan.


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> Here is my personal opinion, based on the information available on this thread:
> 
> One limitation of these points systems, is they have to hold enough fixed week inventory to back the points they are selling.
> 
> This in effect becomes the Ponzi scheme that we are warned about. In this whole process, no additional desirable weeks are created. You just a growing pool of owners competing for the same number of fixed weeks.



So in effect you still have 52 owners going after 52 weeks, the limitation being you are now competing with the owners of off-season weeks...kinda like the ol' Southwest Airlines cattle rush for seats rather than having off-season and on season deeded weeks? The extra owners are created when you have the resorts off-season inventory converted to points, correct? Don't in-season weeks cost more points?

Excellent explanation, Eric, I just want to be sure I am understanding it correctly.


----------



## ecwinch

Fig said:


> So in effect you still have 52 owners going after 52 weeks, the limitation being you are now competing with the owners of off-season weeks...kinda like the ol' Southwest Airlines cattle rush for seats rather than having off-season and on season deeded weeks? The extra owners are created when you have the resorts off-season inventory converted to points, correct? Don't in-season weeks cost more points?
> 
> Excellent explanation, Eric, I just want to be sure I am understanding it correctly.



I think at Southcape, they only sell 51 weeks. But your analogy is correct. 

The only difference is you probably sold everyone on the expectation that they would get a aisle or window seat. But the nature of the game, means someone has to use the middle seat.

But then they can just trade that middle seat for a chance to get a aisle seat at another resort in the Festiva system, or by using II or RCI. 

Yes, the extra owners are created by converting off-season weeks into points. But after the conversion there is nothing to force you to sell points tied to a specific week. If you have a buyer for 6000 pts - enough to obtain a peak season week - then Cliff will give Festiva two off-seasons weeks @ 3000 pts each or three-weeks @ 2000 pts each. The buyer is receiving 6000 pts, where those points came from is immaterial. But it creates one more owner that is competing for a fixed number of in-season weeks.

If you could sell an in-season week for $10,000, but only get $500 for an off-season week, would you not do this? It becomes 2+2=10.

If all I have to sell is fixed weeks, I cannot do this. But allow me to convert my weeks into points, and then the sky's the limit.


----------



## Carolinian

This is essentially what Peppertree / Equivest did at Outer Banks Beach Club I and II.  The resorts were mostly sold out in desirable weeks, so they moved to selling points instead.  Their remaining inventory was mostly off season.  They tried to convert owners to points, but most were too smart for that ploy.

They kept touring prospects, showed them a chart of how many points it would take for a summer week.  If someone wanted to buy that many points, they explained they would actually be deeded in Wisconsin or somewhere, but that did not matter because ''points are points''.  The probelm was that when those points owners wanted to take that summer week on the Outer Banks, there was no room at the inn.  All those weeks were owned by weeks-based owners.  There were many very upset points patsies, and most resorts encountered them as they went around trying to rent a timeshare or buy somewhere else.  Eventually, Peppertree-Equivest sold their business to Fairfield (now Wyndham), but Fairfield did not want their points club, so it became a orphan, with no new sales and a declined membership base.  At the Beach Club, both HOA's, which were homeowner controlled, kicked out Fairfield management shortly after Fairfield was bought by Cendent.  Fairfield still owned the sales office, which was on a seperate lot adjacent to the resort, and they reopened it to sell Fairfield points.  With the sour taste a lot of people had for points, the Beach Club refused to allow Fairfield to take prospects on their property.  Fairfield had to cut a deal with Seascape, some miles away and off the beach, to take tours to show them a timeshare, paying a sum of money to Seascape's HOA for the privelege.  Eventually, Fairfield shut down its sales office and sold it.  Ironically, that orphan points club ended up being acquired by Festiva.  Oh, and along the way, a court ruled that it was the owners of the underlying points weeks, not Peppertree/Equivest or Festiva, which got to vote those weeks in HOA meetings.  In any event, there were never enough of them to threaten homeowner control of the resorts.




ecwinch said:


> When Cliff converts the off-season inventory into Festiva points, he is not losing any control. The Festiva Trust would vote those weeks. Their goals are mutually aligned.
> 
> The plan is retain control of the resort, while converting his inventory into Festiva points that can be marketed by Outfield.
> 
> It really is genius when you think of it. I own 500 off-season weeks. They are really tough to sell though.
> 
> But those weeks represent enough points to convert them into large points packages that would allow the holder to obtain a prime summer week. So I can effectively market it has a prime summer week.
> 
> So instead of selling an off-season week (lets say 3000 Festiva pts), I can sell a 6000 pt Festiva package. And I can tell the buyer that you can reserve a prime summer week with your ownership.
> 
> The points system is effectively allowing Cliff to convert his off-season inventory into bright shiny prime season inventory. But it all hinges on his ability to convert some prime season owners into points. It would be a mis-representation to sell those points, if their was no summer inventory in the points system. So he has to get some conversions going to support the plan.


----------



## Sou13

Quote:
Originally Posted by *bhound54*
Hello Friends,

I agree with TUGBrian and Eric.  The tone of many of the messages and "fake replies" are over the top, increase clutter, and reduce the usefulness of this list as a way to keep updated on our resort.  

For the record, my wife and I own two weeks (Unit 6, weeks 34-35) and have been going to Southcape for 25 years, never trading our units.  We have attended several owners meetings including the last one.  While none of us are happy about the increase in the MF and the special assessment, we were concerned about the condition of the resort.  My wife and I applaud the efforts of the current resort management in tackling the renovations, as well as the sewage and parking lot suit.

- Bhound54​
Quote:
Originally Posted by *bhound54* 
Hello Southcape Friends,

I've been watching the Southcape threads on this BBS since my wife and I returned from the Southcape annual meeting (where I told Cliff that he was starting to look like a pincushion). We own two weeks (Unit #6, Weeks 34-35) and have been owners for 25 years. We have never traded out Southcape weeks.

Just a few thoughts:

1. We did entertain a visit from an Outfield representative. Yes, the presentation was misleading but he was cordial. When he failed to make the case for converting our ownership to points, we sent him on his way to his next "victim". 

2. The sad truth is that Southcape Owners probably have not paid the amount necessary to maintain and upgrade the resort so a rise in the the maintenance fee and a special assessment was probably inevitable. I'm not happy about it but don't blame current management for the situation. In the meanwhile, I have been happy to have use of the funds that more realistic maintenance fee would have cost.

3. Rosaleen is a magician with respect to managing the resort with limited funds. We have been lucky to have her around.

4. The septic system and the suit over parking lot are real, substantial issues. I applaud Cliff for his handling of these two items.

5. If someone else has been wronged and wants to pursue a class action or contact the AG, more power to you. Folks that drank the Outfield "Kool-Aid" may fall into that category. However, my limited understanding of the law is that you need to have a harm to successfully pursue civil actions. My wife and I don't feel harmed by Outfield or the current resort management so we plan to sit on the sidelines. 

6. My number one complaint about the resort is the lack of internet access. We'll see if Cliff and Rosaleen deliver when our two weeks come up.

Best wishes,

Bhound54​
Hello, bhound54, and welcome to the discussion.

I agree with TUGBrian when it comes to personal attacks, and hope that none of my posts have fallen into that category.  My intent here is to expose the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club and stop its takeover of Southcape Resort in its tracks if that's at all possible.

I also agree with you that some issues need to be addressed but am somewhat confused about Cliff Hagberg's role as managing partner.  While it's true that we need someone who's a resident of Cape Cod, everyone else on the Board of Trustees (75%) has a vested interest in Festiva Resorts and can dictate to Hagberg who has only 25% interest in NEVS.

Were you impressed with the paving job on the patio?  While it looks shiny and new and the umbrella tables are a great touch, the job itself had me wondering whether that's what we are to expect in the future.  Look at what happened to the pool!  The paint job wasn't included in the Special Assessment and they didn't do it right and now it has to be done over but in the meantime the owners and exchanges who stayed at Southcape while the pool was being repainted had to be sent to another resort!

These repairs are supposed to be done during the off-season, such as January when the resort is virtually empty and even then isn't a good time to be painting a pool.  One year not too long ago I experienced a major breakdown of my car over the Thanksgiving interval and had to leave it at the Mobil station for repairs.  A week or two later I had a friend bring me back to Southcape and he was hoping to be able to use the pool but it was empty.  That was in December, between the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays.  I believe it was 2002, and that might have been when the last repainting was being done.

If you attended the owners' meeting you should have received all the financial info that I had to scan and send to all the Southcape owners on my elist who were unable to be at the meeting.  We need to take a serious look at those reports because there are some questionable entries.  The problem is that the more we present Southcape Resort as having problems the less attractive it becomes to buyers and we need to sell the NEVS inventory to MF-paying owners!

If you will email me for documents I can send you my PDF of Hagberg's posts from March 27-April 15 so that you don't have to page through this discussion for his posts.  Other than that I see no need to include you on my elist if you don't see a need for AG involvement or civil action.

Thanks again for your post!


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bhound54*
> Hello Friends,
> 
> I agree with TUGBrian and Eric.  The tone of many of the messages and "fake replies" are over the top, increase clutter, and reduce the usefulness of this list as a way to keep updated on our resort.
> 
> For the record, my wife and I own two weeks (Unit 6, weeks 34-35) and have been going to Southcape for 25 years, never trading our units.  We have attended several owners meetings including the last one.  While none of us are happy about the increase in the MF and the special assessment, we were concerned about the condition of the resort.  My wife and I applaud the efforts of the current resort management in tackling the renovations, as well as the sewage and parking lot suit.
> 
> - Bhound54​
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bhound54*
> Hello Southcape Friends,
> 
> I've been watching the Southcape threads on this BBS since my wife and I returned from the Southcape annual meeting (where I told Cliff that he was starting to look like a pincushion). We own two weeks (Unit #6, Weeks 34-35) and have been owners for 25 years. We have never traded out Southcape weeks.
> 
> Just a few thoughts:
> 
> 1. We did entertain a visit from an Outfield representative. Yes, the presentation was misleading but he was cordial. When he failed to make the case for converting our ownership to points, we sent him on his way to his next "victim".
> 
> 2. The sad truth is that Southcape Owners probably have not paid the amount necessary to maintain and upgrade the resort so a rise in the the maintenance fee and a special assessment was probably inevitable. I'm not happy about it but don't blame current management for the situation. In the meanwhile, I have been happy to have use of the funds that more realistic maintenance fee would have cost.
> 
> 3. Rosaleen is a magician with respect to managing the resort with limited funds. We have been lucky to have her around.
> 
> 4. The septic system and the suit over parking lot are real, substantial issues. I applaud Cliff for his handling of these two items.
> 
> 5. If someone else has been wronged and wants to pursue a class action or contact the AG, more power to you. Folks that drank the Outfield "Kool-Aid" may fall into that category. However, my limited understanding of the law is that you need to have a harm to successfully pursue civil actions. My wife and I don't feel harmed by Outfield or the current resort management so we plan to sit on the sidelines.
> 
> 6. My number one complaint about the resort is the lack of internet access. We'll see if Cliff and Rosaleen deliver when our two weeks come up.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Bhound54​
> Hello, bhound54, and welcome to the discussion.
> 
> I agree with TUGBrian when it comes to personal attacks, and hope that none of my posts have fallen into that category.  My intent here is to expose the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club and stop its takeover of Southcape Resort in its tracks if that's at all possible.
> 
> I also agree with you that some issues need to be addressed but am somewhat confused about Cliff Hagberg's role as managing partner.  While it's true that we need someone who's a resident of Cape Cod, everyone else on the Board of Trustees (75%) has a vested interest in Festiva Resorts and can dictate to Hagberg who has only 25% interest in NEVS.
> 
> Were you impressed with the paving job on the patio?  While it looks shiny and new and the umbrella tables are a great touch, the job itself had me wondering whether that's what we are to expect in the future.  Look at what happened to the pool!  The paint job wasn't included in the Special Assessment and they didn't do it right and now it has to be done over but in the meantime the owners and exchanges who stayed at Southcape while the pool was being repainted had to be sent to another resort!
> 
> These repairs are supposed to be done during the off-season, such as January when the resort is virtually empty and even then isn't a good time to be painting a pool.  One year not too long ago I experienced a major breakdown of my car over the Thanksgiving interval and had to leave it at the Mobil station for repairs.  A week or two later I had a friend bring me back to Southcape and he was hoping to be able to use the pool but it was empty.  That was in December, between the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays.  I believe it was 2002, and that might have been when the last repainting was being done.
> 
> If you attended the owners' meeting you should have received all the financial info that I had to scan and send to all the Southcape owners on my elist who were unable to be at the meeting.  We need to take a serious look at those reports because there are some questionable entries.  The problem is that the more we present Southcape Resort as having problems the less attractive it becomes to buyers and we need to sell the NEVS inventory to MF-paying owners!
> 
> If you will email me for documents I can send you my PDF of Hagberg's posts from March 27-April 15 so that you don't have to page through this discussion for his posts.  Other than that I see no need to include you on my elist if you don't see a need for AG involvement or civil action.
> 
> Thanks again for your post!



Be careful what you send and to who. Some people still posting here might be related to massman and capeguitarguy. Beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Look at what happened to the pool!  The paint job wasn't included in the Special Assessment and they didn't do it right and now it has to be done over but in the meantime the owners and exchanges who stayed at Southcape while the pool was being repainted had to be sent to another resort!
> 
> These repairs are supposed to be done during the off-season, such as January when the resort is virtually empty and even then isn't a good time to be painting a pool.  One year not too long ago I experienced a major breakdown of my car over the Thanksgiving interval and had to leave it at the Mobil station for repairs.  A week or two later I had a friend bring me back to Southcape and he was hoping to be able to use the pool but it was empty.  That was in December, between the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays.  I believe it was 2002, and that might have been when the last repainting was being done.



Just trying to add a little balance here, but Cliff has apologized for the pool issue. He has admitted a mistake was made, and accepted responsibility for it.

And I am not a building contractor, but I doubt that normal pool paint would properly cure in Jan on Cape Cod. I would think this would have be a job done during a warmer period.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Be careful what you send and to who. Some people still posting here might be related to massman and capeguitarguy. Beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.



Lets not start questioning the veracity of every poster to this thread that supports Cliff's actions or is taking a wait and see approach. I think those people will reveal themselves to be real or not based on their posts.

It does not contribute to a meaningful dialog on the issues....


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Lets not start questioning the veracity of every poster to this thread that supports Cliff's actions or is taking a wait and see approach. I think those people will reveal themselves to be real or not based on their posts.
> 
> It does not contribute to a meaningful dialog on the issues....



 Now Eric you know better than to assume. I mentioned no names and questioned no one. I simply don't want SOU giving all of his information to his opponent. It would be very hard to win a football game if one coach accidentally told the other team the plays they were going to use and the strategy they would be implementing before the game even began.

I still feel that there are a couple of more posters that were Cliff who haven't been named yet. So far my suspicions have proven 100% to be correct. If I had not questioned the others we might still be talking to Viv, Massman,weinstein, etc. as though they were real. There is no way that one couldn't have doubts since Cliff did use many different aliases that we know of. It is not unreasonable to believe that he might be using or will in the future use others.


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> When Cliff converts the off-season inventory into Festiva points, he is not losing any control. The Festiva Trust would vote those weeks. Their goals are mutually aligned.
> 
> The plan is retain control of the resort, while converting his inventory into Festiva points that can be marketed by Outfield.
> 
> It really is genius when you think of it. I own 500 off-season weeks. They are really tough to sell though.
> 
> But those weeks represent enough points to convert them into large points packages that would allow the holder to obtain a prime summer week. So I can effectively market it has a prime summer week.
> 
> So instead of selling an off-season week (lets say 3000 Festiva pts), I can sell a 6000 pt Festiva package. And I can tell the buyer that you can reserve a prime summer week with your ownership.
> 
> The points system is effectively allowing Cliff to convert his off-season inventory into bright shiny prime season inventory. But it all hinges on his ability to convert some prime season owners into points. It would be a mis-representation to sell those points, if their was no summer inventory in the points system. So he has to get some conversions going to support the plan.



I was wondering why Outfield Marketing or whoever is banking them would go to the expense of telemarketing and flying people all over the country for a deed. This makes a lot of sense....carve out the prime season owners and make a full-fledged assault on them so you can get the game going. The rest you can catch at a much lower cost per contact when they visit the resort, which seems to be what is going on now.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Just trying to add a little balance here, but Cliff has apologized for the pool issue. He has admitted a mistake was made, and accepted responsibility for it.
> 
> And I am not a building contractor, but I doubt that normal pool paint would properly cure in Jan on Cape Cod. I would think this would have be a job done during a warmer period.



After all of the lies Cliff told and the admonishments he gave me for being mean to kind new posters who were really HIM, I don't trust anything Cliff says. He threatened to sue you and expected an apology from you. Where is Cliff's apology?

He admits he screwed up the pool, big deal. He denies that he is Massman,Viv, weinstein, etc. He denies that he is doing business with outfield. He denies that he is by law and per by laws supposed to give owners access to the owners list. 
He denied that outfield's office was at the Texas address FIG gave. He has been caught in so many lies here that I wouldn't believe anything he says. He hasn't accepted responsibility for anything major, just the paint job on the pool. This thread runs a lot better without Cliff and the fake Cliffs here because honest discussions can be made about the real situation without lies being interjected and discussions subterfuged IMO. I don't miss discussing the state of Festiva/Outfield timeshare practices with Cliff here anymore than I would miss discussing investing my money with Bernie Madoff. In either situation I know that I will be asking honest questions and as I ask them I will be confident that I will receive lies and double talk for answers.

If you enjoyed verbally sparring with Cliff, OK. If you really want him to come back here to start some real honest discussions, you have got to be kidding yourself.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Now Eric you know better than to assume. I mentioned no names and questioned no one. I simply don't want SOU giving all of his information to his opponent. It would be very hard to win a football game if one coach accidentally told the other team the plays they were going to use and the strategy they would be implementing before the game even began.
> 
> I still feel that there are a couple of more posters that were Cliff who haven't been named yet. So far my suspicions have proven 100% to be correct. If I had not questioned the others we might still be talking to Viv, Massman,weinstein, etc. as though they were real. There is no way that one couldn't have doubts since Cliff did use many different aliases that we know of. It is not unreasonable to believe that he might be using or will in the future use others.



Actually the whole "keep the game plan secret" is rarely effective. In most football games, the other side knows exactly what you are going to run and what your general strategy will be. It is more about execution. Sure you can mix it up a little, but the majority of your actions are the bread and butter plays you rely on heavily. 

The same holds true in situations like this. I think we are to brainwashed by watching the legal shows where the attorney whips out some key information that was unknown to the opposition and wins the case. Real life is not like that. Cliff knowing that he failed to change the BoD directors is not a material event, and is easily corrected. It is not the magic bullet that would cause him to change.

Who cares under what alias Cliff posts under. You evaluate each post based on the merits of the content, not who it is from. Cliff just as easily could have all the NEVS employees post here. Lets not begin presuming facts that are not in evidence.


----------



## Fig

*Cliff basically did himself in here*

I dunno, I kinda feel sorry for him. He used to say "Google me" when I was posting all this unflattering stuff I was finding about Festiva and Outfield on the thread.  I did and I did not find anything negative. Now he has a lasting testimony sitting on the web that puts him right in with the most deplorable tactics of Festiva and Outfield Marketing. Anyone who Googles "Cliff Hagberg" is likely to find this thread...no doubt the story has been circulated among the Southcape and Sandcastle e-lists and will be passed to owners who do not yet know Cliff---his friends in the industry will have access to it. People who try to buy real esate through IVS will have access to it. I am glad he came here to answer questions...gave folks an opportunity to get a larger picture. Just sad that he had to resort to contradictions and fake identities to explain himself...but I guess that is part of the picture. If he wants to waste time with more fake identities, let him. He's done far more damage to his rep and cause than a boatload of identies could prop up. Just my silly opinion.

Cathy


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Actually the whole "keep the game plan secret" is rarely effective. In most football games, the other side knows exactly what you are going to run and what your general strategy will be. It is more about execution. Sure you can mix it up a little, but the majority of your actions are the bread and butter plays you rely on heavily.
> 
> 
> 
> Who cares under what alias Cliff posts under. You evaluate each post based on the merits of the content, not who it is from. Cliff just as easily could have all the NEVS employees post here. Lets not begin presuming facts that are not in evidence.



My team led every regular season game in the first half by a large margin because none were prepared for the surprises thrown their way. After half time we were outscored by several teams because they adjusted to the game plan we were running, but they didn't have time to adjust and win. We won all of our close games by outscoring opponents in the first half. Had they have been prepared for our game plan in the first half as they were in the second, we would have had several victories turned into losses. The legal analogy might not work exactly, but in Football often times the surprise strategies make the difference.

You want to evaluate each post based on the merits of it's content? If the post is made by Cliff the developer pretending to be a happy owner, what merit does that content have?  If the content of a post is lies with no substance, what points are worth discussing? If Cliff got employees to post lies here, it would still be deceitful posts made under false pretenses with bogus content. What could totally false posts possibly add to the thread or to anyone's understanding except to let everyone understand that there is little if anything that they won't do or say to sell timeshare points. I guess at least the understanding we can all come to is that the combination of NEVS/Outfield/Festiva/Cliff can not be believed no matter what you are told because they lie.These are not presumptions, the lies he got caught in have been documented as facts beyond any reasonable doubt.

If Cliff came here tomorrow and apologized for each and every lie, I could not possibly believe that his apology was sincere. Now even after being caught red handed, no apologies so far. My opinion is that he doesn't feel bad about a single lie he has perpetrated on TUG or anywhere else, all he feels bad about is getting caught.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> My team led every regular season game in the first half by a large margin because none were prepared for the surprises thrown their way. After half time we were outscored by several teams because they adjusted to the game plan we were running, but they didn't have time to adjust and win. We won all of our close games by outscoring opponents in the first half. Had they have been prepared for our game plan in the first half as they were in the second, we would have had several victories turned into losses. The legal analogy might not work exactly, but in Football often times the surprise strategies make the difference.
> 
> You want to evaluate each post based on the merits of it's content? If the post is made by Cliff the developer pretending to be a happy owner, what merit does that content have?  If the content of a post is lies with no substance, what points are worth discussing? If Cliff got employees to post lies here, it would still be deceitful posts made under false pretenses with bogus content. What could totally false posts possibly add to the thread or to anyone's understanding except to let everyone understand that there is little if anything that they won't do or say to sell timeshare points. I guess at least the understanding we can all come to is that the combination of NEVS/Outfield/Festiva/Cliff can not be believed no matter what you are told because they lie.These are not presumptions, the lies he got caught in have been documented as facts beyond any reasonable doubt.
> 
> If Cliff came here tomorrow and apologized for each and every lie, I could not possibly believe that his apology was sincere. Now even after being caught red handed, no apologies so far. My opinion is that he doesn't feel bad about a single lie he has perpetrated on TUG or anywhere else, all he feels bad about is getting caught.



I think we are digressing, but until Cliff returns, I am not sure what else there is to discuss. So....

I evaluate the post on the content. A million fake or real owners could have appeared here with glowing stories of the changes made. It would not have changed my opinion of the situation. 

And while you were correct about Viv, I think you have to admit that you just as easily could have been wrong. And in the scheme of things, what would have been the consequences of you being wrong? Alienating another owner? Turning someone off to TUG completely?  Someone who could in turn have turned numerous other people off to TUG? And think of all the people who might have read your posts to his aliases. How do you think they viewed them? Do the potential consequences of your actions outweigh the benefit realized by exposing the deception? And keep in mind it was Cliff that caused the deception to be revealed. 

But, that is a decision for you to make. Having been burnt once in a similar situation, I prefer to give a "suspect" poster the benefit of the doubt, until they clearly show themselves. In the interim I internally discount their posts unless they contain some material new information.

Secondly, I do not follow Bama football. But I doubt that your team's game plan was drastically different from game to game. Yes, all teams tailor their plan to exploit the perceived weaknesses of the other team. And at half-time, most teams make adjustments based on what is effective. But a running team is generally a running team, and they usually run the same plays. Same with a passing team.

Rarely do you see a team come out and adopt a completely different strategy, and win. I mean where a wishbone team suddenly adopts a pro-style passing game. Strategy is more about what area of your strengths are you going to emphasize. How many times do you hear opposing coaches say that they just could not stop a certain play? It was not that they did not know it was coming, but that they could execute properly to stop something. 
I think most competent coaches know what the other team is going to do. 

Tombo - we have both posted enough to know that none of this personal. I get a kick out of your sense of humor. Sorry if this seems preachy....


----------



## tombo

I agree that we are just posting our opinions and it is nothing personal. Where I disagree is that it doesn't hurt for numerous fake posters to be posting lies here and acting like they are owners when they are in fact the developer. If an owner finds this thread and starts reading and finds that 6 owners (real) are upset about what the developer is doing at their resort, and they also read posts from 5 owners (fake) who are very pleased with the way everything is going, many owners will assume that the 6 upset owners are a digruntled few. A new guest can't know about trolls unless they are told that they exist. 

The reality that they will never know is that not one single real owner is posting here that they are happy with what is going on at the resort. If the new guests who are actually owners were informed that all owners on the thread who are upset about what is happening at their resort were really owners, and that the "happy owners" posting here were in fact the developer posting fake posts acting like he was a happy owner, the new real guests could make a much more informed decision about the situation at their resort. If I joined this thread and found out that the developer couldn't find a single real owner to post here who was happy, so he had to invent happy owners and post fake posts himself, I would be very worried about what I owned and I would join the legal action to protect what I own. If I was new and thought that some like the new mgt, and some disliked it, I would be a lot less inclined to consider becoming a plaintiff. 

 BTW there are 2 more "guests" who have posted that I feel are Cliff. Of course I can't be sure, but I am as sure as I was about Massman, Viv, and MFweinstein (and capeguitarguy thanks to SOU). If we all ignore the elephant in the forum, we will do a disservice to real owners who have no clue that such dishonesty has occurred in the past, and is still possibly occuring.

As far as football wins and losses having nothing to do with strategies that must be kept secret from other teams, I disagree completely. I played football, my father coached football, and this fall I will live, eat,sleep, and breathe college football. Before the game you study films of the other teams for weeks looking for weaknesses. You formulate a game plan to beat this specific team and their individual players. Their safety is slow, throw the ball deep up the middle. The linebacker is injured, run it right at him. Their kickoff return team is not alert about onsides kicks, do an onside kick during your first kickoff. Their quarterback looks at his primary receiver as soon as the ball is snapped, defensive backs key on  the QB's eyes. The QB is more emphatic with his signal when it is time to snap the ball, defensive lineman can jump the snap quicker. The running back looks at the hole he is going to hit before the ball is snapped, defensive linemen cheat towards that hole. The variables are endless, the game plan is often the difference between winning and losing. If the other team knew your plans they would practice onside kicks, get the quarterback to be more emphatic prior to the actual snap, get the running back to look at holes he isn't going to hit, cheat the safety really deep in coverage,and negate all the advantages you had picked up from the films. The reason the college coaches are paid the big bucks is because the best coaches formulate game plans which make their teams win, just like the best lawyers formulate a legal strategy to win their legal cases.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

*Southcape Owners*

Any owners wishing to speak with me directly may contact me at nevmsllc@gmail.com

Cliff


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## Sou13

*Football?*

Hey guys, this is about Southcape Resort!

I'm having so much trouble keeping up with unhappy owners and keeping up with all the silliness that I don't have time to post here!

I have a suggestion for NEVMSLLC:  Update your Profile and Signature so that owners know how to get in touch with you.

I've had some trouble updating mine since the Master Deed was removed from the Southcape Resort website.  I can't remove the link to the introductory letter from NEVS because I referenced it in the Sandcastle discussion.  The second link wouldn't work until I figured out how to fix it, but it's to only the first of a succession of posts.  The savvy TUG user knows how to proceed from there, but at least I'm trying to get the word out!

So now can we get back to my question to bhound54?


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## tombo

Sou13 said:


> Hey guys, this is about Southcape Resort!
> 
> I'm having so much trouble keeping up with unhappy owners and keeping up with all the silliness that I don't have time to post here!
> 
> 
> 
> So now can we get back to my question to bhound54?



Sorry. My analogy sent Eric and myself off on a tangent. I will try to remain more focused on the subject at hand in the future.


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## ecwinch

What else is there to talk about? Actually I think the time for talking has come and gone....


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## e.bram

Ich bein ain Sandcastler and Southcaper(even if I don't own there). All TS owners(myself included) should contribute to a legal fund. We are all vulnerable to the problems facing the above owners unless TS grabs can be stopped in court.


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## tombo

e.bram said:


> Ich bein ain Sandcastler and Southcaper(even if I don't own there). All TS owners(myself included) should contribute to a legal fund. We are all vulnerable to the problems facing the above owners unless TS grabs can be stopped in court.



I will contribute. Someone start a fund. SOU, how about you?


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## Sou13

*Contact JackB62*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *tombo*
Quote:
Originally Posted by *e.bram* 
Ich bein ain Sandcastler and Southcaper(even if I don't own there). All TS owners(myself included) should contribute to a legal fund. We are all vulnerable to the problems facing the above owners unless TS grabs can be stopped in court.​
I will contribute. Someone start a fund. SOU, how about you?​
JackB62 is handling that.  I'm still working on my complaints to the AG and FTC!


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## ecwinch

JMO - but I would exhaust all avenues of due process before I engaged a lawyer. The first thing the lawyer is going to do is send a demand letter to the resort. This is something that you can do yourself. 

Now the game would change if you can find an attorney willing to do this on a contingency basis. 

I am not saying that retaining a lawyer is a bad idea. I think you will eventually probably end up their anyway. It is more a cost-containment strategy, allowing any dollars you raise to go further. Do as much as you can on your own, and bring the attorney in when you need to go to court. As I said, JMO.

I would rather go into an attorney's office with a well documented and highlighted file with all the pertinent information (governing documents, statements that Cliff has made here, financial statements, copies of Mass timeshare law, etc.).  Otherwise the first big chunk of your budget is going to be consumed by the lawyer obtaining, preparing, and reviewing the same.


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## Sou13

*That's what I've been trying to do*

All of my time and effort has been directed toward obtaining as much info as possible before retaining a lawyer.  And I still have a long way to go!


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## vivmarch

*Who I am not, but not who I am.*



tombo said:


> Just in case Cliff tries to get rid of these priceless fake posts, here is one one saved in my post.
> 
> CliffViv said "the rest is history". What is history is anyone here believing anything Cliff says if he even has the guts to post here again after being exposed. Of course from now on we will never know for sure if any new poster is Cliff  sneaking back into the thread under a new and improved alias. I think every now and then I will just say Hi to Cliff in case he is amongst us,
> 
> 
> Hi CliffVivMassCapeStein, etc.



I return after a few days away to discover that I am now famous - or rather "infamous"... for being someone else!!??

Whilst I can't vouch for the other names on your list, I can assure you that I am not Cliff Hagberg, nor am I the King of Spain, or Angelina Jolie (though I wouldn't mind being that last one!)

As for the person (Sou-something) who looked me up on the deeds: given that I am so concerned about keeping my personal information private, why in the world would you expect me to post here under my real name??

I would like to thank those of you who have been kind enough to answer my questions in the past, and I wish any new posters good luck.

I don't feel comfortable posting here, so this will be my last.


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## Fig

vivmarch said:


> I return after a few days away to discover that I am now famous - or rather "infamous"... for being someone else!!??
> 
> Whilst I can't vouch for the other names on your list, I can assure you that I am not Cliff Hagberg, nor am I the King of Spain, or Angelina Jolie (though I wouldn't mind being that last one!)
> 
> As for the person (Sou-something) who looked me up on the deeds: given that I am so concerned about keeping my personal information private, why in the world would you expect me to post here under my real name??
> 
> I would like to thank those of you who have been kind enough to answer my questions in the past, and I wish any new posters good luck.
> 
> I don't feel comfortable posting here, so this will be my last.



Good luck, Southcape and Sandcastle folks...you appear to be up against something that will stop at nothing. May the force be with you!


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## Carolinian

I totally agree with you.  Why pay the hourly rate a lawyer would charge for research you can do yourself?

However, the initial issue of getting the membership list is extremely important and is a simple issue that involves little research.




ecwinch said:


> JMO - but I would exhaust all avenues of due process before I engaged a lawyer. The first thing the lawyer is going to do is send a demand letter to the resort. This is something that you can do yourself.
> 
> Now the game would change if you can find an attorney willing to do this on a contingency basis.
> 
> I am not saying that retaining a lawyer is a bad idea. I think you will eventually probably end up their anyway. It is more a cost-containment strategy, allowing any dollars you raise to go further. Do as much as you can on your own, and bring the attorney in when you need to go to court. As I said, JMO.
> 
> I would rather go into an attorney's office with a well documented and highlighted file with all the pertinent information (governing documents, statements that Cliff has made here, financial statements, copies of Mass timeshare law, etc.).  Otherwise the first big chunk of your budget is going to be consumed by the lawyer obtaining, preparing, and reviewing the same.


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> I totally agree with you.  Why pay the hourly rate a lawyer would charge for research you can do yourself?
> 
> However, the initial issue of getting the membership list is extremely important and is a simple issue that involves little research.



In the WorldMark case, which is in California court, the members won the first round, but the BoD took the next step, which was to tie it up on appeal. Almost a year later, still no resolution or mailing list. But the meter is running for the appeal, for which the members are paying. As of six months ago, I think the total bill to the HOA was 15k and counting.

And since you are essentially suing yourself (BoD expenses are paid by the HOA), it just becomes a question of how much money the HOA is willing to spend to resist you. In that regard I think you get out-monied.

And I would not expect this case to proceed any faster than the California case.


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## Sou13

*Eric, I'm afraid you're right!*

I have to admit that Eric is probably right.  We can't get legal help for ourselves without putting out the money, and the developers have deeper pockets.

Our hope may be with the AG after all.  If we can show that Outfield Marketing and Festiva have engaged in deceptive sales practices the AG might take action as was done in MO.

I suspect that all of the Southcape owners who converted to points before Festiva registered to do business in MA may be able to get their deeds back if they realize they've been scammed and then complain to the AG.  That's what Festiva agreed to do in MO when enough timeshare buyers complained that they'd been subject to deceptive sales practices.

There's also something going on at Equivest-Peppertree.  Festiva has made some sort of settlement but there's a confidentiality clause including retractions of all negative statements about Festiva.  Odd, isn't it?


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## tombo

Fig said:


> Good luck, Southcape and Sandcastle folks...you appear to be up against something that will stop at nothing. May the force be with you!



This is becoming bizarre and now is bordering on absolutelly insane. There is no admission of guilt no matter how badly someone is caught. Excuses, fake posts, anything but the truth. Someone is either crazy, on drugs, without conscience, delusional, or a pathological liar IMO. What other situation could explain such lunacy?

Obviously a lawyer is the owner's only choice.


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## e.bram

Someone from the Boston area should thy to get one of the TV stations to do a "shame on you" expose.


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## Sou13

*I'm still waiting for a reply from bhound54*

I have yet to see a reply from bhound54.  How can anyone not be concerned about the financial reports we brought back from that sham of an annual meeting?

I can't for the life of me figure out why there's a reported operating loss of $134,000 for 2008 in the breakdown of the $400 Special Assessment.  And why Cliff Hagberg seems to be paying himself nearly twice what we were previously paying for "professional services" (no wonder he wants to keep his "job"!).

Is there anyone who still needs copies of these reports?  Is nevmsllc@gmai.com refusing to provide them?

And Eric, what's the difference between March and January in New England when it comes to indoor pools?


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## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> And Eric, what's the difference between March and January in New England when it comes to indoor pools?



The day is longer.....:rofl:


----------



## Carolinian

Not necessarily.  A lower court order will be enforced unless it is stayed pending appeal.  The issue, in most courts, at least, should be so clear cut that there would be no stay and the court order to turn over the lists would be enforced pending the appeal.

Secondly, the governance of these resorts is so murky that there may be an opportunty to sue Cliff or NEVS without naming the HOA as a defendant, and if so the money issue changes dramatically.





ecwinch said:


> In the WorldMark case, which is in California court, the members won the first round, but the BoD took the next step, which was to tie it up on appeal. Almost a year later, still no resolution or mailing list. But the meter is running for the appeal, for which the members are paying. As of six months ago, I think the total bill to the HOA was 15k and counting.
> 
> And since you are essentially suing yourself (BoD expenses are paid by the HOA), it just becomes a question of how much money the HOA is willing to spend to resist you. In that regard I think you get out-monied.
> 
> And I would not expect this case to proceed any faster than the California case.


----------



## tombo

The more members you get the cheaper the cost per member. If you don't hire a lawyer and fight it will cost you more assessments and MF increases in the future. 

100 owners at $200 each would give you $20,000 to put in a retainer. 50 owners at $400 each would do the same thing. The lawsuit we filed against our board at a resort on the Gulf Coast cost our plaintiff group about $20,000, but we did prevail in court and stopped the board from rebuilding against the owners wishes. If we had not hired an attorney we would have been paying estimated 6000 per week in assessments. We had to pay $500 per week owned to fight the board with the few owners we could assemble to join our plaintiff group. We could have lowered the cost drastically if we could have contacted all of the owners, but the board refused to release the owner's list to us just as Cliff refuses to give it to you.The HOA's and developers don't ever want you to be able to contact all the owners to tell them what is going on because they know that they would have major problems if all owners were told the true situation rather than the lies told by the developers in the "newsletters" and in the annual meeting. You must fight this thing and you can't hire a lawyer for free. 

To save your resort many of you are going to have to contribute some of your own money to a legal fund, and some of you are going to have to contribute a lot of personal time and effort in addition to money. To do anything less is to surrender and let Cliff/Outfield/Festiva/NEVMS do what ever they want at your resort including frequent assessments and large annual MF increases. You can pay the lawyer now or pay the crooks at NEVMS/Cliff/Festiva for as long as you own at your resort.


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## NEVMSLLC

I'm no longer answering questions on TUG. Every time I do, I'm vilified and flamed. I get called a "thief", a "liar", a "crook", etc. I'm told that people won't believe me no matter what I say, even if it's the truth. I've even been accused of committing crimes by people who don't know what they're talking about, do not have any facts to back up their accusations and don't realized the implications of their statements. I've been accused of pretending to be other people when I'm not and there's no way I can prove I'm not someone any more than someone can prove they're not a child molester. I don't know how to prove a negative. I've been personally attacked and libeled. I've had private communications from me published on TUG. I've seen confidential resort information published on TUG.

There is no point in my answering questions when I'm told I won't be believed no matter what I say. I will always respond to owners and answer their questions. As I've said, I do expect that confidential communications remain confidential. I don't think that's too much to ask.

What we have here is not reasonable discourse between people who may have opposing viewpoints. What we have here is diatribe and vitriol of the basest sort and I choose not to participate in it any longer.

Any Southcape owner that has questions can reach me at nevmsllc@gmail.com

Cliff


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## timeos2

*A strong, owner controlled Board is always the best*



tombo said:


> The more members you get the cheaper the cost per member. If you don't hire a lawyer and fight it will cost you more assessments and MF increases in the future.
> 
> 100 owners at $200 each would give you $20,000 to put in a retainer. 50 owners at $400 each would do the same thing. The lawsuit we filed against our board at a resort on the Gulf Coast cost our plaintiff group about $20,000, but we did prevail in court and stopped the board from rebuilding against the owners wishes. If we had not hired an attorney we would have been paying estimated 6000 per week in assessments. We had to pay $500 per week owned to fight the board with the few owners we could assemble to join our plaintiff group. We could have lowered the cost drastically if we could have contacted all of the owners, but the board refused to release the owner's list to us just as Cliff refuses to give it to you.The HOA's and developers don't ever want you to be able to contact all the owners to tell them what is going on because they know that they would have major problems if all owners were told the true situation rather than the lies told by the developers in the "newsletters" and in the annual meeting. You must fight this thing and you can't hire a lawyer for free.
> 
> To save your resort many of you are going to have to contribute some of your own money to a legal fund, and some of you are going to have to contribute a lot of personal time and effort in addition to money. To do anything less is to surrender and let Cliff/Outfield/Festiva/NEVMS do what ever they want at your resort including frequent assessments and large annual MF increases. You can pay the lawyer now or pay the crooks at NEVMS/Cliff/Festiva for as long as you own at your resort.



Using two resorts I'm very familiar with, both of which have had experience with Developer issues of management and control as well as Bankruptcies, the power and ability of a strong owners BOD to prevail against even the largest developers is always there. You need individuals who are willing to put the resort operation at a level of their own home, put aside internal issues and unite to gain the owners trust as well as critical financial support. 

At one it occurred long before the Internet was king. Thankfully much of the ownership was basically local and could attend meetings, see the resort first hand and understood what was at stake.  They were also blessed with a great developer who themselves were hurt by banks and rival developers that forced things into a bankruptcy. The resort suffered for 5 years and spent plenty of legal fees but that dedicated group (there was always a majority of Owners on the Board) fought it out, got things back on track and ultimately turned it around. Two special assessments later the resort is financially solid but unbelievably is STILL working to settle on a block of ownership that remains in question nearly 15 years from when it started! To say it takes time is putting it mildly.  Now the annual meeting draws less than 500 people - used to be well over 1000 - due to the improvements made and an aging base of ownership.  Everyone appreciates what that Board and the management has done there and it will never be allowed to return to the bad times from what I see. 

The other was more recent - 2001 - and it too has a happy ending. Thankfully despite attempts for the developer to maintain control and management they had correctly turned the Board majority to the owners in 1998. They had made moves they felt would keep them in an unassailable  spot as management through contracts signed by the outgoing, Developer controlled Board that basically tied the hands of the new Board to make changes. They also handled legal interpretations for the Board, had the Auditors, who appeared independent on the surface, tied to multiple long term agreements at many resorts to "simplify" reporting, had an unbelievable web of associated companies supplying services such as phone, cable TV, laundry, insurance, etc that all carried a significant yet buried commission as well as management fees of over $1 million/year!  It was a sweet deal and took years to unravel. 

By 2001 the Board had waited out the worst of the agreements (the overall management contract) and both openly and behind the scenes worked to find out what the options were to the current situation before simply moving ahead with a renewal of the contract as the Developer had assumed. At the same moment in time the Developer went into self inflicted bankruptcy and tried to separate the management side from the sales side to their benefit. They also sued Association over any change and pulled out all the stops to make it hard to defend against them by holding cases in other state and even Federal courts, using the shield of bankruptcy to eliminate possible changes, etc. 

By then the Internet was a strong presence and thanks to that - using email, web sites, users groups and more - the HOA Board was able to stir up interest and inform owners as to what was happening. Plus having the Board majority allowed them to put out sanctioned newsletters not of the usual fluff but serious missives about the need to fight and why there was a BIG special assessment to support it. But even then the Developer withheld the owners list and had to be forced by the Courts to mail the newsletter. It was a really intense period that ended only when the Board used over $200,000 of Association money to make it clear they would not back down.  A settlement was reached and today there are few if any resorts with a stronger bottom line, a better ongoing working relationship with the Developer or an owner base more involved or well informed.  Again it was the efforts of a strong owner BOD - in this case with members spread all over the country - that placed the good of the resort FAR above their personal views and gave freely of their time and effort to make it happen.  These are after all volunteers - they cannot be paid - and they fought it like they were being threatened with the loss of their home. 

I know John Cummings had a similar group of dedicated Board members at his southern California resort(s) that also beat back some of the largest developers not once but twice!  That doesn't happen by accident or by wringing your hands in defeat but by rallying owners anyway possible and showing results. We also met 5 Boards in Arizona who did the same, there were the folks at Bluebeards - the list goes on.  You don't always hear about the successes here and there are many others that have simply and understandably given up in the face of the Developer onslaught, but it can and has been done with enough effort.  

I really hope this group has a strong BOD and will do what is necessary to regain control and make the resort work for the owners. The very fact that it is a lively thread here and that things are happening means they have the chance to succeed. Keep it alive and best of luck to you all.


----------



## AwayWeGo

*Whoa -- Sounds Like We Missed Out On Plenty Of Excitement.*




timeos2 said:


> A settlement was reached and today there are few if any resorts with a stronger bottom line, a better ongoing working relationship with the Developer or an owner base more involved or well informed.


Shux, we didn't get into timesharing till a year or so after the dust settled from all that. 

We obviously missed out on a major serious timeshare management fuss & kerfuffle. 

Hats off to the HOA-BOD members who hung in & prevailed. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## tombo

NEVMSLLC said:


> . I'm told that people won't believe me no matter what I say, even if it's the truth.
> 
> Cliff



If only people knew when it was the truth.  Are you talking about telling the truth like when you posted I am not Capeguitarguy, Outfield doesn't have an address in Texas, I don't do business with Outfield because it would be innappropriate, I have been an owner at Southscape for decades, if Outfield is using deceptive sales tecniques I will handle it, Outfield is selling the unsold inventory, I am selling the unsold inventory, no one is selling the unsold inventory because of restraints placed by the mtge holder, and other truths that are similar to those truths? After those and many other truths it is hard to evaluate what is true, even if it's the truth.

You will be missed. I will say Hi every now and then in case you are among us.


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> Not necessarily.  A lower court order will be enforced unless it is stayed pending appeal.  The issue, in most courts, at least, should be so clear cut that there would be no stay and the court order to turn over the lists would be enforced pending the appeal.
> 
> Secondly, the governance of these resorts is so murky that there may be an opportunty to sue Cliff or NEVS without naming the HOA as a defendant, and if so the money issue changes dramatically.



It has been stayed pending appeal. The case is Worldmark v Miller in Superior Court - County of Sacramento. Case # 2008-00025130.

Anything is possible. Meaningful action is another thing.

And you know that BoD/Trustees are protected from suit in most cases like this. Courts have recognized that service on a BoD of a non-profit affords greater legal protection due to the voluntary nature of the service. 

See Wixon v Wyndham Resorts in 3rd US District court, where the WorldMark BoD has been brought into the case. Again the HOA is paying the BoD legal fees, though the BoD members were brought into the case individually.


----------



## ecwinch

timeos2 said:


> I really hope this group has a strong BOD and will do what is necessary to regain control and make the resort work for the owners. The very fact that it is a lively thread here and that things are happening means they have the chance to succeed. Keep it alive and best of luck to you all.



I agree and definitely believe that a strong group of dedicated owners that are able to mobilize the dis-interested majority and are willing to see things through will prevail in the end. But those efforts typically span years, rather than weeks or months.

So a group of like minded owners should have realistic expectations on the potential duration and effort required to see it through. 

I have not seen a quick victory in any of the mentioned cases of which I have studied. Nor one that overturns a pending assessment or spike in m/f.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> I'm no longer answering questions on TUG. Every time I do, I'm vilified and flamed. I get called a "thief", a "liar", a "crook", etc. I'm told that people won't believe me no matter what I say, even if it's the truth. I've even been accused of committing crimes by people who don't know what they're talking about, do not have any facts to back up their accusations and don't realized the implications of their statements. I've been accused of pretending to be other people when I'm not and there's no way I can prove I'm not someone any more than someone can prove they're not a child molester. I don't know how to prove a negative. I've been personally attacked and libeled. I've had private communications from me published on TUG. I've seen confidential resort information published on TUG.
> 
> There is no point in my answering questions when I'm told I won't be believed no matter what I say. I will always respond to owners and answer their questions. As I've said, I do expect that confidential communications remain confidential. I don't think that's too much to ask.
> 
> What we have here is not reasonable discourse between people who may have opposing viewpoints. What we have here is diatribe and vitriol of the basest sort and I choose not to participate in it any longer.
> 
> Any Southcape owner that has questions can reach me at nevmsllc@gmail.com
> 
> Cliff



I think you have finally said something that I agree with. But in defense of the spewers of diatribe and vitriol, that condition was borne from frustration of the answers and non-answers you provided. 

You cannot have reasonable discourse, when one party picks and choses which points they wish to have discourse on, to the exclusion of topics that are of the most concern. 

That is not discourse, that is you using this platform to make speeches and disseminate propaganda.


----------



## e.bram

Hopefully the next chance Cliff will get to answer questions will be interrogatories, depositions and on the witness stand. If he dissembles there he will be in deep doo doo.


----------



## tombo

e.bram said:


> Hopefully the next chance Cliff will get to answer questions will be interrogatories, depositions and on the witness stand. If he dissembles there he will be in deep doo doo.



 Cliff will subpoena Cape, Viv, MFweinstein, and Massman to be character witnesses. They love him and the job he is doing.


----------



## Carolinian

Any protection for BoD members does not extend to selfdealing and conflict of interest.  Indeed, every HOA I am aware of carries Directors Liability insurance for this very reason.  From what I read on these boards, for Cliff's sake, I hope his policy is paid up.  Most Directors Liablility policies include coverage for legal fees.  It is negligent for a BoD to use HOA funds for legal fees when they could be paid by insurance.  I suspect that a developer would try to keep insurance attorneys out of it, because attorneys paid by an insurance company would be looking to setttle and give up Worldmark's totally assinine position.




ecwinch said:


> It has been stayed pending appeal. The case is Worldmark v Miller in Superior Court - County of Sacramento. Case # 2008-00025130.
> 
> Anything is possible. Meaningful action is another thing.
> 
> And you know that BoD/Trustees are protected from suit in most cases like this. Courts have recognized that service on a BoD of a non-profit affords greater legal protection due to the voluntary nature of the service.
> 
> See Wixon v Wyndham Resorts in 3rd US District court, where the WorldMark BoD has been brought into the case. Again the HOA is paying the BoD legal fees, though the BoD members were brought into the case individually.


----------



## Carolinian

On the NC Outer Banks, the First Flight cases varied.  The Dunes South case went all the way to the state Supreme Court, with the owners whipping the developer in court at every stage.  The Ocean Villas II case was filed at the trail court level, but settled by total surrender of the developer before it ever went to trial.  Ocean Villas I and Hatteras High settled with total developer surrender before the cases were even filed.

A later situation at Dunes South, where a management company got a subsequnet board under its thumb, took several years to get a board majority to kick the management company out.  The key was getting the membership list to run proxy campaigns.  Getting the list was not that difficult.  A lawyer who was a member of the Concerned Owners Group made a formal demand for it, the management company tried to stonewall, so he directed his demand again at the management company's attorney, who knew they did not have a leg to stand on in court and so turned it over.

In two of the First Flight cases, they concerned owners did not know initially that they could get the list by demanding it.  They got it through a disgruntled employee of the developer who copied it and gave it to them.  That was enought to organize and take over the HOA boards.

Sometimes, getting state regulatory authorities involved can work.  Usually, as in North Carolina, it is the Real Estate Commission.  Bodie Island Beach Club had an original developer who had sold his remaining inventory, ''developer rights'', and management contract to a subsequnet developer.  Among things the subsequnet developer was claiming was that the did not have to pay m/f's on his weeks.  The Real Estate Commission opened a formal investigatoin on Bodie Island Beach Club, and when the smoke cleared, the subsequnet developer had lost his management contract, timeshare weeks, and even his real estate license.  In that situation, the Real Estate Commission compelled the subsequent developer to turn over the membership list durng the early stages of the investigation.




ecwinch said:


> I agree and definitely believe that a strong group of dedicated owners that are able to mobilize the dis-interested majority and are willing to see things through will prevail in the end. But those efforts typically span years, rather than weeks or months.
> 
> So a group of like minded owners should have realistic expectations on the potential duration and effort required to see it through.
> 
> I have not seen a quick victory in any of the mentioned cases of which I have studied. Nor one that overturns a pending assessment or spike in m/f.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> I agree and definitely believe that a strong group of dedicated owners that are able to mobilize the dis-interested majority and are willing to see things through will prevail in the end. But those efforts typically span years, rather than weeks or months.
> 
> So a group of like minded owners should have realistic expectations on the potential duration and effort required to see it through.
> 
> I have not seen a quick victory in any of the mentioned cases of which I have studied. Nor one that overturns a pending assessment or spike in m/f.



Our case against the board at our timeshare resort took about a year and a half from when we hired our attorney to where they settled in court. There were times of activity just before court and when they took depositions and contacted us with questions and strategies, and then there were long periods of nothing happening. It was the only law suit experience I have ever had and it can get frustrating. The board fought us all the way with their attorney's fees paid from the resort's funds. It is very maddening to pay your own money for legal fees to fight them while they pay nothing personally to defend themselves, but you have no choice. Was it fun, no. Would I do it again? You bet your sweet aXX!

Win or lose you won't be just laying down and taking it. Fight them in court, using the AG, using the state real estate commisssion. Use everything you can and you will win. If you don't hire an attorney and just sit back hoping things will get better, you have already lost.


----------



## tombo

Post 748 from July 13th



NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi CiC3
> 
> 5.  Wireless internet is installed but not working throughout the resort.  We are still waiting for Comcast to update their wiring and are chasing them every week.  Other than that, it's all set and I apologize for not having it ready for you.
> 
> Cliff



 As of July 13th the wireless internet wasn't working yet at the resort per Cliff. The new fake posters are claiming that all who joined TUG with the same IP as Cliff di so because the wireless internet router would have given all the same IP addrees. Well MFwienstin, Vivmarch, Massman, and Capeguitarguy all joined tug using the same IP address as Cliff. That means that they were in Cliff's home using Cliff's cmputer. Even more amazing is that when Vivmarch joined tug as a guest she had the same IP address as Cliff even though she states that she didn't use the internet the whole time she was on vacation because she has a family rule against it.

Cliff, the more you spin tales, the more you get caught. Are you not embarassed yet?

Post number 701 posted Jly 8th as a new Guest:



vivmarch said:


> I have just returned from a great week at Southcape  (even though the weather didn't always cooperate!) and discovered this site.
> 
> What are you all going on about??
> 
> I have been staying at Southcape for the last nine years and this year noticed that the place was in a much better condition than it has been in all those years. And I understand from the staff that there are some further upgrades still in progress.  I think it's great as any improvements to Southcape protect my initial investment.  I've seen several timeshare resorts in other parts of the country that have been allowed to fall into disrepair and I would be very upset if I owned one of them!
> 
> So what's going on?



Post 784 from july 16th:


vivmarch said:


> I have no idea as I didn't think to ask.  The woman in the unit next to us originally asked me if I'd heard of the site, which I hadn't.  A day or so later when we bumped into her and her husband in the parking lot her husband mentioned if we'd looked at the site yet.  I told him we hadn't because we were on vacation with the kids and we have the rule of no video games, computer or tv whilst on vacation (which I could enforce that the rest of the year too), but I'd probably take look when we got home.  The rest is history.





Vivmarch joined on July 8th using the same IP address as Cliff (post 701). Cliff hoped smetime after the 13th of July that the wireless internet would be working. Viv says she waited till she got home to respond because she has a rule of no computers while on vacation. There is no way she could have gone home, joined TUG as a guest, and had the same IP address as Cliff. What is being explained here is implausible if not impossible. The only believable explanation is the posts are Cliff.


----------



## tombo

BHOUND54 joined July 10 in post 714

MFWEINSTEIN joined July 10th in post 719

VIVMARCH loined July 8th

MASSMAN joined on Feb 16th

All joined TUG before the 13th when Cliff posted that the internet wasn't working yet. All used  one of Cliff's IP addresses, and all did so before the wireless internet was working, and one (Viv) used Cliff's IP address after she returned home. 

What a tangled web we weave when first we begin to deceive.


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## TUGBrian

Just to clarify, as I understood it the internet access provided at this resort is claimed to be comcast no?

there have only been 4 different blocks of ip addresses used by all of the posters here.

173. - comcast
24. - comcast
72. - verizon
68. - verizon


im not sure if the little computer icon shows up at the bottom left hand corner of each post for regular users as it does for administrators, but if so its an easy way to check who posted what and when.

I want to settle this once and for all since my "ethics" have now been brought into question, and I dont care for that much.


----------



## Fig

TUGBrian said:


> Just to clarify, as I understood it the internet access provided at this resort is claimed to be comcast no?
> 
> there have only been 4 different blocks of ip addresses used by all of the posters here.
> 
> 173. - comcast
> 24. - comcast
> 72. - verizon
> 68. - verizon
> 
> 
> im not sure if the little computer icon shows up at the bottom left hand corner of each post for regular users as it does for administrators, but if so its an easy way to check who posted what and when.
> 
> I want to settle this once and for all since my "ethics" have now been brought into question, and I dont care for that much.



Can't seem to see what you are referring to...can you provide a screen shot?


----------



## TUGBrian

probably not available to regular users, its right next tot he orange "report this post" triangle at the bottom left hand corner of each post.

see attachment


----------



## Fig

TUGBrian said:


> probably not available to regular users, its right next tot he orange "report this post" triangle at the bottom left hand corner of each post.



Sorry, no icon.


----------



## Fig

*Question for Brian*

If Vivmarch were "home' posting as she claims after vacationing at the resort...how close would home have to be? A few hundred feet away from the resort at most? 

Thanks!


----------



## TUGBrian

vivmarch said:


> I have just returned from a great week at Southcape  (even though the weather didn't always cooperate!) and discovered this site.
> 
> What are you all going on about??
> 
> I have been staying at Southcape for the last nine years and this year noticed that the place was in a much better condition than it has been in all those years. And I understand from the staff that there are some further upgrades still in progress.  I think it's great as any improvements to Southcape protect my initial investment.  I've seen several timeshare resorts in other parts of the country that have been allowed to fall into disrepair and I would be very upset if I owned one of them!
> 
> So what's going on?




so according to this post, the poster is not in the resort but instead returned home.  this post was recieved from a 72.85.x.x verizon ip.

this ip has been used to post by:

nevmsllc
ginnyb60
wfeinstien

this ip address is also the registration ip address of:

ginnyb60
wfweinstein


hope this clears my name and or "ethics" issues.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Our case against the board at our timeshare resort took about a year and a half from when we hired our attorney to where they settled in court. There were times of activity just before court and when they took depositions and contacted us with questions and strategies, and then there were long periods of nothing happening. It was the only law suit experience I have ever had and it can get frustrating. The board fought us all the way with their attorney's fees paid from the resort's funds. It is very maddening to pay your own money for legal fees to fight them while they pay nothing personally to defend themselves, but you have no choice. Was it fun, no. Would I do it again? You bet your sweet aXX!
> 
> Win or lose you won't be just laying down and taking it. Fight them in court, using the AG, using the state real estate commisssion. Use everything you can and you will win. If you don't hire an attorney and just sit back hoping things will get better, you have already lost.



We can disagree. I do not see going to court or just lying down as being the only options.

I think a concerned owner group can accomplish a lot without having to go to court. And then if you do end up in court, and you have crossed your tees/dotted your i's, then you should have a pretty good case file to establish a pattern of actions.

JMO - rushing to the courthouse without such documentation would be problematic.


----------



## ecwinch

TUGBrian said:


> so according to this post, the poster is not in the resort but instead returned home.  this post was recieved from a 72.85.x.x verizon ip.
> 
> this ip has been used to post by:
> 
> nevmsllc
> ginnyb60
> wfeinstien
> 
> this ip address is also the registration ip address of:
> 
> ginnyb60
> wfweinstein
> 
> 
> hope this clears my name and or "ethics" issues.



Probably just neighbors or roommates. Or maybe they all hang out at the same Starbux....


----------



## Carolinian

Just noticed in your list of resorts that you own one that has been a victim of a similar scam outfit, Club Leisure Group of ''Froggy'' Lamont in South Africa.  I was sorry to see what happened at The Seapointer.  Of course, Lamont is currently going after Dikhololo.

I agree with you about research.  It is better for owners to do as much of that as they can to keep their legal costs down.  Some background legal advice, even before the lawyer gets openly involved will be helpful.

You need to formally organize your group and build your membership.  Take your core groups and have them solicit others to join when they are at the resort for their week.  Have them go around and get contact info from other like minded owners.  




ecwinch said:


> We can disagree. I do not see going to court or just lying down as being the only options.
> 
> I think a concerned owner group can accomplish a lot without having to go to court. And then if you do end up in court, and you have crossed your tees/dotted your i's, then you should have a pretty good case file to establish a pattern of actions.
> 
> JMO - rushing to the courthouse without such documentation would be problematic.


----------



## tombo

TUGBrian said:


> so according to this post, the poster is not in the resort but instead returned home.  this post was recieved from a 72.85.x.x verizon ip.
> 
> this ip has been used to post by:
> 
> nevmsllc
> ginnyb60
> wfeinstien
> 
> this ip address is also the registration ip address of:
> 
> ginnyb60
> wfweinstein
> 
> 
> hope this clears my name and or "ethics" issues.



Thanks Brian!

Vimarch said in her post that she didn't make a post or join while she was at the resort. However the same IP address she used has been used by NEVSMLLC,Ginnyb60,MFweinstein, and herself. This means that Cliff (NEVMSLLC), Ginnyb60 (also Cliff), and WFweinstein (once again Cliff) all went to Viv's house to post comments, and ginny and MFwienstein went to Viv's house to register as TUG guests.

It gets even more ridiculous for Cliff to defend himself or defend a fake owner using one of his many aliases. Ginnyb60 joined on july 8th, and so did Vivmarch. Since Vivmarch in her post said that she didn't log onto TUG to join or post until she returned home from her vacation, and she joined on July 8th, Ginnyb60 would have had to have joined at Vivmarch's house because they both posted from the same IP address. I am sure that we are about to get a post saying they are both friends because the lies and excuses just keep on coming. Before you know it they will all live next door to each other and use Viv's wireless.

We have educated Cliff a lot. I doubt that he will stop making fake posts, but he will probably find new IP addresses to post from. Nobody can believe anything he says or does, and after all of the bogus activity perpetrated by him here on TUG I would have a hard time ever believing anyone who defended Cliff (other than his spouse) after they had read these threads. In fact I bet Festiva and Outfield are having a fit if they have been following his posts because he is making himself seem crazy IMO.

I will say this, whether it is drugs, ego, or pathological lying, these threads (Southscape, Sandcastle) have become threads unlike any threads I have read before here on TUG.  I doubt any future threads could compare to these with regards to bizarre actions from a developer. It has been educational, entertaining, and extremelly scary for the owners at these resorts since they have gotten a glimpse of what they are dealing with.


----------



## Sou13

*My concerns*

Since NEVMSLLC is no longer replying to concerns raised here, even by Southcape owners, I emailed him mine.  His reply to me is that, given the fact that I have publicly and privately accused the trustees of criminal activity, the matter has been turned over to legal counsel.

Now whose attorney is providing this legal counsel?  If it's the resort's attorney, we deeded owners are paying for it!


----------



## TUGBrian

Perhaps all this means is that they are investigating a way to answer all of your questions legally with the advice and help of the resorts' atty.

I certainly would think that any time, effort and money put into pulling lawyers into the situation would result in clearing up all of the questions and concerns voiced by owners.


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> Since NEVMSLLC is no longer replying to concerns raised here, even by Southcape owners, I emailed him mine.  His reply to me is that, given the fact that I have publicly and privately accused the trustees of criminal activity, the matter has been turned over to legal counsel.
> 
> Now whose attorney is providing this legal counsel?  If it's the resort's attorney, we deeded owners are paying for it!



His legal counsel is probably your legal counsel since I would bet that his legal counsel is being paid for by Southscape. Rather than representing the owners, that lawyer will be defending the developers and trustees using the owner's money. Been there, done that. It sucks. 

As we left the courtroom one time the HOA's attorney asked me for some information and I told him to get it from our lawyer. He asked our lawyer and our lawyer told him to get it himself.  He said kind of sarcastically "ya'll have a good attorney". In front of the Resort's board members and our lawyer and the court bailiff, I blew up. I said which attorney of ours are you talking about? I said are you talking about the one we hired to protect us from the board's actions using our own personal money, or you who was hired by the board to protect themselves while also using our money? I said hell we are paying for the lawyer that is fighting for us and you who is fighting against us. I had to walk away because I was so mad there was no telling what i would have said.

Perhaps the Resort's attorney will answer some of your questions, but I doubt it. Somehow the Board/trustees seems to always have the resort's attorney looking out for them instead of having the resort's attorney looking out for the owners. It isn't fair, but it is one of the battles you face.


----------



## Sou13

*IP address*

The IP address for the reply from NEVMSLLC was [209.85.210.204].  Is that the Sandcastle IP?


----------



## w.bob

Sou13 said:


> The IP address for the reply from NEVMSLLC was [209.85.210.204].  Is that the Sandcastle IP?



found the following by putting 209.85.210.204 in the address bar.

IP Address:   209.85.210.204 
Hostname:   mail-yx0-f204.google.com 

Location Information 

City:   Mountain View 
Region:   California 
Country:   United States 
Postal:   94043 
Lat/Long:   37.4192 -122.0574 

ISP Registry Information 

Organization:   Google Inc. 
NetHandle:   NET-209-85-128-0-1 
NetName:   GOOGLE 
NetRange:   209.85.128.0 - 209.85.255.255 
Designation:   ARIN 
Country:   United States 
IP Range:   209.85.128.0 - 209.85.255.255 
Allocated:   2006-01-13 

BGP Routing Information 

Network:   209.85.210.0/24 
Origin:   AS15169 
Organization:   Google Inc.


----------



## Carolinian

TUGBrian said:


> Perhaps all this means is that they are investigating a way to answer all of your questions legally with the advice and help of the resorts' atty.
> 
> I certainly would think that any time, effort and money put into pulling lawyers into the situation would result in clearing up all of the questions and concerns voiced by owners.



The problem is that developer attorneys are just about quaranteed to come up with a load of crap as excuses for the illegal behavior of their client, excuses that would not fly in court.

This ''privacy'' crap that NEVS keeping spewing as his excuse to blatantly violate the corporate laws of his state is a good example.  The membership list is the voting list for corporate meetings like the HOA annual meeting.  To have a democratic meeting one has to be able to communicate with the voters.  In the election process for government posts, any voter can go down and obtain the list of registered votes, with addresses and often phone numbers from the Board of Elections.  The voting list for corporate elections is exactly the same.  No ''privacy laws'' are going to prevail over the necessities of democracy.

Cliff is stonewalling and it is all about iron-fisted dictatorial control of the HOA, not about privacy.  All a developer attorney would do is try to muddy the water to help him continue to stonewall.


----------



## ecwinch

w.bob said:


> found the following by putting 209.85.210.204 in the address bar.
> 
> IP Address:   209.85.210.204
> Hostname:   mail-yx0-f204.google.com
> 
> Location Information
> 
> City:   Mountain View
> Region:   California
> Country:   United States
> Postal:   94043
> Lat/Long:   37.4192 -122.0574
> 
> ISP Registry Information
> 
> Organization:   Google Inc.
> NetHandle:   NET-209-85-128-0-1
> NetName:   GOOGLE
> NetRange:   209.85.128.0 - 209.85.255.255
> Designation:   ARIN
> Country:   United States
> IP Range:   209.85.128.0 - 209.85.255.255
> Allocated:   2006-01-13
> 
> BGP Routing Information
> 
> Network:   209.85.210.0/24
> Origin:   AS15169
> Organization:   Google Inc.



Sou13 - I am assuming that you obtained the IP address from the internet header from an e-mail that you received.  That is just telling you the IP address of the originating e-mail server. In this case a Google server for gmail.


----------



## Sou13

*So which is the IP*

You are correct.  I don't know how to find the IP address!  Please advise!


----------



## TUGBrian

its not something you can readily obtain from an email.


----------



## Sou13

*Untruths and misrepresentations*

Then all the IP addresses I've posted are "untruths" and "misrepresentations"!


----------



## Sou13

*Only 8 "gold" weeks?*

On April 24, 2009, NEVMSLLC posted this (#494):

_If you own a week 26 - 34 at Southcape, you come every year. If you're a member of a regular exchange, you never really know. It depends on what's deposited at the time you make your request. There are too many variables to give definitive answers. The advantage with point is that there is a set value for weeks 26 -34 and, when you make your exchange request, if one is available and you have enough points, your exchange is confirmed instantly. Even if you don't have enough points, you can usually rent extra points for a nominal fee to use to make an exchange. With points, the guess work and mystery is taken out of the exchange. If you have the points needed, you're going, if you don't you're not. What points does is commoditize the timeshare market so that relative values of weeks are exposed and transparent to everyone. No more "well, some red time is more valuable than other red time". Every week at every resort has a fixed value which makes the exchange much easier and harder for salespeople to mislead you.

I love points!

Just remember, no exchange can give you a week unless and until an owner deposits that week with the exchange company!_​
This means that only 8 weeks are fixed "gold" weeks at Southcape Resort.  Which means that all the remaining weeks are "float" weeks and can be reserved for the following year only when the float week owner has used the week reserved in any given year.

I took NEVMSLLC at his word on this one but that means that the Labor Day weekend is a "float" week which is a complete surprise to me.

My point in bringing this up is that I went through all the Southcape weeks that have been converted to Festiva points and found only 30 fixed summer weeks out of 200 converted weeks as of 7/07/09.

I am concerned that Festiva Adventure Club members may not be held to the same rules of reserving "float" weeks that we deeded float week owners must observe.  Every owner who converted to Festiva points would have reserved a week for 2009 which is the actual week that should be available for Festiva points if FAC members are held to the same rules as deeded "float" week owners.

I have before me the FAC points chart for Southcape Resort and see that weeks 27-36 (10 weeks) are "gold" weeks requiring 4800 points, which is all that deeded owners of weeks 27-36 are being offered in exchange for $3185, and instead of paying MF of $593.88 to Southcape Resort, they have to pay more than $700 MF to Festiva Adventure Club!

Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the MFs for FAC members won't go up, or that the # of points needed to stay at a Festiva Resort won't increase.  I was told that the MF for 3500 FAC points would be $575 but it turned out to be $602 for 2009.

I'm posting this because I had a telephone message today from a Southcape owner who is upset about being asked to convert deeded Southcape weeks to FAC points.  I have yet to return her call but hope that she will read this post.


----------



## Classylassy523

*MF?*

When you use MF ... does that mean membership fee or maintenance fee?


----------



## Sou13

MF = Maintenance Fee, SA = Special Assessment


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> On April 24, 2009, NEVMSLLC posted this (#494):
> 
> This means that only 8 weeks are fixed "gold" weeks at Southcape Resort.  Which means that all the remaining weeks are "float" weeks and can be reserved for the following year only when the float week owner has used the week reserved in any given year.
> 
> I took NEVMSLLC at his word on this one but that means that the Labor Day weekend is a "float" week which is a complete surprise to me.
> 
> My point in bringing this up is that I went through all the Southcape weeks that have been converted to Festiva points and found only 30 fixed summer weeks out of 200 converted weeks as of 7/07/09.
> 
> I am concerned that Festiva Adventure Club members may not be held to the same rules of reserving "float" weeks that we deeded float week owners must observe.  Every owner who converted to Festiva points would have reserved a week for 2009 which is the actual week that should be available for Festiva points if FAC members are held to the same rules as deeded "float" week owners.
> 
> Furthermore, there is no guarantee that the MFs for FAC members won't go up, or that the # of points needed to stay at a Festiva Resort won't increase.



I do not have the Festiva membership documents, but all the documents for  points based systems that I have seen, have a provision that the number of points allocated for a week or season cannot change. Most state regulations require similar protections.

For instance for my WorldMark membership, the number of credits required for a 2BR summer week at x resort will always be x credits. 

It should be checked, but I would speculate that Festiva has something similar. 

And anything is possible, but I do not see how FAC pts would have an advantage over weeks owners. The only advantage might be that FAC could  be more aggressive in reserving inventory. They might be more systematic about it. FAC can still only reserve only the number of float weeks that are deeded over to them.

And the number of gold weeks is 9, BTW. While 34-26 = 8, you need to count each week. The mathematical concept is called fence-posting. 

If you need to build a 8 ft fence, with a post every foot, how many posts do you need? 9 - otherwise your fence does not have enough posts.


----------



## Classylassy523

*How come you have to maintain something you no longer own?*



Sou13 said:


> MF = Maintenance Fee, SA = Special Assessment



How come a person who gives up his/her deeded week has to pay a Maintenance Fee?  If they don't own anything to maintain, then why a fee?  

Do these same people who have to maintain something they don't own also have to pay annual membership fees to Festiva, along with all the other fees they have to pay when they book a stay?  Or does the maintenance fee for something they don't own cover the annual membership fee?

Are these maintenance fees directed to the resort where these people originally had deeded property, or is all the money thrown into one big pot and it is spent at any of the resorts that Festiva owns?

Is there a length of time that these people are required to belong to this points club?  And, if they don't use the points do they still have to pay the maintenance fees on something that they don't own?  Is there a contract for a specified length of time that they are required to pay fees?  

I know that the resorts that Festiva actually own are few, so these same people who pay maintenance fees for something they don't own will have to pay membership fees to another entity like II or RCI if they want to trade their points for something else besides their resort ... and they will also have to pay additional fees for trading ... am I understanding this all correctly?

It just boggles my mind that people willingly GIVE away their deeded property, and on top of that, they willingly PAY to give it away, and then they are CHARGED maintenance fees for something that they no longer own.  Sounds something like adding insult to injury from my standpoint.

But maybe I am confused and don't really have a clear picture of how all this works and what the advantages are over owning a deeded piece of property.  Are there any guarantees?  Are these people *guaranteed* that they will have a place to stay the week they want to stay somewhere, or is it 'first come, first serve'?  And, God forbid, if Festiva goes belly up (when they get done paying court fees, fines and settlements, they just might drain the well dry) then what do these people have?

The more I think about this, the more questions I come up with.  The whole thing is scary when you think about all the money people have committed themselves to and have nothing to show for it.


----------



## e.bram

Question:
Does the money Festiva collects go into a general account to pay their legal fees and the cost of fines. Someone should ask the Outfield rep when approached to convert.,


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> How come a person who gives up his/her deeded week has to pay a Maintenance Fee?  If they don't own anything to maintain, then why a fee?
> 
> Do these same people who have to maintain something they don't own also have to pay annual membership fees to Festiva, along with all the other fees they have to pay when they book a stay?  Or does the maintenance fee for something they don't own cover the annual membership fee?
> 
> Are these maintenance fees directed to the resort where these people originally had deeded property, or is all the money thrown into one big pot and it is spent at any of the resorts that Festiva owns?
> 
> The more I think about this, the more questions I come up with.  The whole thing is scary when you think about all the money people have committed themselves to and have nothing to show for it.



Again speaking in generalitities, some else can fill in the specifics on Festiva.

When you deed your week over to Festiva it is placed into a trust for the beneficial use of all members of the FAC. FAC in turns then becomes responsible for paying the m/f to the resort for that week every year. To the resort, the fact that the week is in Festiva is really immaterial. Festiva just becomes a weeks owner at that point.

At the beginning of the year, FAC adds up all the m/f and special assessments for the weeks that are in the trust, and calculates what the membership fee will be for FAC members. In doing so it tacks on the fees for running FAC. Which is one problem, as you now are double-paying for administration - FAC admin and the Resort admin.

Yes, you will need to have an II or RCI membership to exchange with them. This is no change, as you would need the same if you were in FAC or just owned a week.

In terms of reservations, it typically is first come first served. Though you might have a priority window at your home resort that gives you a slight edge. Depends on how Festiva operates.

Since the deeded weeks are held in Trust, there is protection from Festiva going bankrupt. They do not own those weeks, the Trust does. They just administer the Trust.

Same on the duration of the program. Perhaps someone else will those parts in.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Thanks*

Thanks for the information Eric.  

As it has been described ... these points systems are just another way to squeeze more money out of the pockets of people who have bought into the timeshare industry.  No wonder there is such a bad taste for some people when you bring up timesharing in conversation.

Jean


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> Thanks for the information Eric.
> 
> As it has been described ... these points systems are just another way to squeeze more money out of the pockets of people who have bought into the timeshare industry.  No wonder there is such a bad taste for some people when you bring up timesharing in conversation.
> 
> Jean



Well like most things, it is not as good or as bad as they seem.

I belong to two points systems (WorldMark and Wyndham). I think they are good products. 

But no, I do not think the same about these mini-systems where developer is basically building a system out of deeds that are redeemed by weeks owners.  Beyond the cost issues, I think they prey on scaring owners with desirable weeks to converting. 

I think it is a just a gimmick designed to allow Cliff to convert his undesirable weeks into points that can be sold. He knows he cannot sell those weeks, but he can sure sell the points with the illusion of being able to reserve a prime summer week. But once people start realizing that it is impossible to exchange the points into a desirable week, then the fecal matter will hit the oscillating cooling device.


----------



## Sou13

*I stand corrected*

I stand corrected, Eric.  Weeks 26-34 would be 9 weeks, not 8. 

I hope everyone has noticed that I've provided a link to the points chart, but if you missed it, here it is again:  Adventure Club Points Charts

Go to the chart for Southcape Resort and you will see that week 26 requires more than 4800 points.  Week 26 in 2009 actually ENDED with the July 4th holiday (check-out time 10 a.m.)!  As for NEVMSLLC's post that only weeks 26-34 are fixed weeks, that is truly an "untruth" and "misrepresentation" for Southcape Resort.  There is some confusion over which weeks are "float" weeks and I hope to be able to clear this up.

Eric, I hope you're right about the Trust protecting owners' deeds if Festiva goes belly-up.  My understanding is that Festiva can take over a week held in trust as soon as a member fails to pay MF for the year. http://www.festivaresorts.com/rules.pdf This may take a few months to accomplish but membership is for 40 years, not for life, and renewable in 10-year increments for which renewal has to be requested before the 40 years are up.

I don't know anything about RCI points or any other points systems but Festiva's is based on preying on ignorance and fear.  I hope the AG can do something to put an end to it!


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> I stand corrected, Eric.  Weeks 26-34 would be 9 weeks, not 8.
> 
> I hope everyone has noticed that I've provided a link to the points chart, but if you missed it, here it is again:  Adventure Club Points Charts
> 
> Go to the chart for Southcape Resort and you will see that week 26 requires more than 4800 points.  Week 26 in 2009 actually ENDED with the July 4th holiday (check-out time 10 a.m.)!  As for NEVMSLLC's post that only weeks 26-34 are fixed weeks, that is truly an "untruth" and "misrepresentation" for Southcape Resort.  There is some confusion over which weeks are "float" weeks and I hope to be able to clear this up.
> 
> Eric, I hope you're right about the Trust protecting owners' deeds if Festiva goes belly-up.  My understanding is that Festiva can take over a week held in trust as soon as a member fails to pay MF for the year. http://www.festivaresorts.com/rules.pdf This may take a few months to accomplish but membership is for 40 years, not for life, and renewable in 10-year increments for which renewal has to be requested before the 40 years are up.
> 
> I don't know anything about RCI points or any other points systems but Festiva's is based on preying on ignorance and fear.  I hope the AG can do something to put an end to it!



Sou13, you have been tireless in your efforts. Many of us have added a some research here and there, but you were the one that got this ball rolling. It looks like many owners have joined you in your efforts. May truth and ethics win out for all those involved,


----------



## jannibaby

*The treatment of new posters with different opinions*

I have been the owner of a week 27 unit at Southcape since 1983.  My husband and I bought at Southcape to own a little piece of the Cape.  We did not buy it to trade and have used it virtually every year since.  I have not posted but have followed the discussion since the annual meeting.  I have been hesitant to post for fear of being accused of being a shill for Cliff or being Cliff himself.  I have corresponded privately with Sou13 and told her these concerns as well.    

The last few pages of this thread have put me over the edge.  The manner in which you are treating new posters who might have a different opinion is deplorable and is NOT helping your cause.  Just because someone might have a different opinion than you or might be on the fence regarding posting a complaint to the attorney general does not make them villains. 

For the record when we went to Southcape this year, we did see visible signs of improvement at Southcape for the first time in a number of years.  The fact that this management is attempting to go after delinquent owners is more than what was done with the previous management.  Sure I think something shady is going on.  Yes, I am concerned that there are no "real owners" as trustees.  But, I also feel that having this public an argument will only harm Southcape’s reputation for future traders or sellers.  

I am sure that because of this post, I will now be labeled one of “them”.  I am sure you will request to have my ip address confirmed.  You will probably check out my facebook page to see if I’m friends with Cliff too.  I just wanted you to know that there might be more people like me out there than you think, who might be so turned off by this that they will never support your cause.  Heck, it's too bad because we might even have some valid and helpful ideas too.

Janice


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## e.bram

Janice: If you are OK with the developer using your MFs and SAs to fix up their units without contributing, that is your business, But you have aprime season week. Others will bail out if the costs get to high for off season weeks, especially with Festiva taking the pinker weeks for their points owners at he expence of the floating off season week owners(leaving the real dogs for these weesk owners). the managment  along with Festiva have their fingers on the computer keyboard which assigns the weeks(non fixed). You will have to pick up the slack for the unpaid MFs and SAs. Good Luck.


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## ecwinch

jannibaby said:


> I have been the owner of a week 27 unit at Southcape since 1983.  My husband and I bought at Southcape to own a little piece of the Cape.  We did not buy it to trade and have used it virtually every year since.  I have not posted but have followed the discussion since the annual meeting.  I have been hesitant to post for fear of being accused of being a shill for Cliff or being Cliff himself.  I have corresponded privately with Sou13 and told her these concerns as well.
> 
> The last few pages of this thread have put me over the edge.  The manner in which you are treating new posters who might have a different opinion is deplorable and is NOT helping your cause.  Just because someone might have a different opinion than you or might be on the fence regarding posting a complaint to the attorney general does not make them villains.
> 
> For the record when we went to Southcape this year, we did see visible signs of improvement at Southcape for the first time in a number of years.  The fact that this management is attempting to go after delinquent owners is more than what was done with the previous management.  Sure I think something shady is going on.  Yes, I am concerned that there are no "real owners" as trustees.  But, I also feel that having this public an argument will only harm Southcape’s reputation for future traders or sellers.
> 
> I am sure that because of this post, I will now be labeled one of “them”.  I am sure you will request to have my ip address confirmed.  You will probably check out my facebook page to see if I’m friends with Cliff too.  I just wanted you to know that there might be more people like me out there than you think, who might be so turned off by this that they will never support your cause.  Heck, it's too bad because we might even have some valid and helpful ideas too.
> 
> Janice



Janice, in principle I agree with your post, and have expressed similar opinions on this thread. I am uncomfortable how this to going also.

But it has been verified that shills are being used to support and propagate the viewpoint of the developer. 

Are you comfortable with the developer using shills to give the appearance that their are owners that disagree with owners becoming more concerned about how the resort is being run? If so, how would you suggest we address that issue?

And notice, there is a big difference between the depth and quality of your post, and those of the shills. The shills tend to make very short and one-sided statements. At least you have indicated some personal information. Usually the best we get from them is "I am a long time owner"... and then some direct personal attack or statement of how great Cliff is. No questions, or opinions on the issue at hand, just vague statements. If it is not Cliff, then it likely is someone from Outfield. 

I think if you stick around and participate you will find TUG to be a great resource. I do agree that it is unfortunate that we feel forced to stoop to the level of the shills. I for one will try to cease doing that.

And yes, he is improving the resort. And in turn making his inventory that much more valuable, and he is not paying for those improvements either. Would you be comfortable if you learned that Sou was exempt from m/f? 

And if he was paying m/f and assessments, think of how much less you would be paying. The numbers are not insignificant. 

I do not see the benefit of giving him a free pass on those glaring injustices, just because he is improving the resort. I respect that you may feel otherwise. And in that regard your opinion is more important.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, Janice!*

In defense of Janice, we have been conversing via email since she learned from TUG that I had stayed in her unit.  And yes, she has expressed to me that she felt that the atmosphere at the meeting was confrontational.

Since we haven't been getting annual meeting minutes in we don't seem to be able to recall how many years, I don't know when was the last time we had anywhere near 200 owners turn out for an annual meeting.  They weren't all there because of my campaign on TUG!  They came because of the telephone calls from Outfield Marketing and the Special Assessment of $400 due less than a month after the annual Maintenance Fee!

I witnessed firsthand that there were owners who like Janice were glad to see that some improvements are being made.  I also witnessed that there were some owners who are so upset about the new owners that they would consider paying Outfield Marketing $3185 just to be rid of their deeds!

The problem isn't with Southcape Resort itself.  As far as we know there has been no skimming of our annual contributions and the resort hasn't fallen into disrepair.  Some nonowners have greater expectations from an exchange but they may have paid more for wherever they own.  Southcape Resort is made up of a lot of families like Janice's who have looked forward to spending a week there every year, and are disappointed if they can't.

I haven't been rushing new posters to TUG to get on my elist ever since discovering how badly NEVMSLLC wants to know what our group is doing.  I have a problem with the financial reports we were given and the meeting "minutes" that owners received in the mail because they weren't bona fida minutes and the financial reports need to be questioned.  The minutes never reported that the owners voted for an audit but that it was only an advisory vote because, according to Cliff Hagberg, there was no quorum present.

I'm in contact with owners privately and have some things to report but would rather see another post from Janice and am still waiting for a reply from bhound54.


----------



## bhound54

*reply ? (also Janice, AG)*

Hello Sou13,

I'm posting this message publicly because you don't have mailbox space for a private reply.

What kind of reply were you anticipating?

BTW, I agree with Janice's post.  Also, I might consider a letter to the AG (that current management is not adhering to the master deed) but your sample related to Sandcastle, not Southcape.  What are the features of the Master Deed that you would like to compel management to comply?

- bhound54


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## FestivaRep

I haven't posted on this thread before, but many of you will already know me from other threads.  If you're not familiar with me, please feel free to look at my previous posts.  I just wanted to say hello and that I will try to be active on this thread as well.

Since this is specifically about Southcape, i will address one issue that I was specifically asked to address on the board: to clarify the relationship between our company and the two resorts in Mass. Festiva Resorts does not own or manage either Southcape or Sandcastle. Further, we do not own NEVS or Outfield. Outfield is the company we have hired to offer optional upgrades to the Festiva Adventure Club program from a deeded week.

If you have specific questions or concerns you can post them here and I will try to answer them, or you can send an e-mail with detailed information to comments@festivaresorts.com.

Thanks.


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## Sou13

*The financial report*

Quote:
Originally Posted by *bhound54*
_Hello Sou13,

I'm posting this message publicly because you don't have mailbox space for a private reply.

What kind of reply were you anticipating?

BTW, I agree with Janice's post.  Also, I might consider a letter to the AG (that current management is not adhering to the master deed) but your sample related to Sandcastle, not Southcape.  What are the features of the Master Deed that you would like to compel management to comply?

- bhound54_​You said you were at the meeting.  Did you pick up the financial report packet?  Have you looked it over?  Would you like more specific info concerning these reports?

I'm still studying the Master Deed and whether NEVS might be in violation, without the benefit of legal counsel.  Do you need a copy of the Master Deed?


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## ecwinch

Also, FestivaRep has provided a statement denying any involvement that Festiva may have had in the financing of NEVS/Outfield's purchase of the resorts.

I withdraw my previous assertion along those lines.


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## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *bhound54*
> _Hello Sou13,
> 
> I'm posting this message publicly because you don't have mailbox space for a private reply.
> 
> What kind of reply were you anticipating?
> 
> BTW, I agree with Janice's post.  Also, I might consider a letter to the AG (that current management is not adhering to the master deed) but your sample related to Sandcastle, not Southcape.  What are the features of the Master Deed that you would like to compel management to comply?
> 
> - bhound54_​You said you were at the meeting.  Did you pick up the financial report packet?  Have you looked it over?  Would you like more specific info concerning these reports?
> 
> I'm still studying the Master Deed and whether NEVS might be in violation, without the benefit of legal counsel.  Do you need a copy of the Master Deed?



Is not the issue of the developer inventory being exempt from m/f the only issue that involves a violation of the Master Deed? 

I know it has been some time since we discussed those issues surrounding the Master Deed, but that is the only one I am aware of. 

The issue of the developer inventory being exempt from the special assessment is supported by the Master Deed. Unjust, but supported. As is their authority to control the HOA - given that the developer control provisions are so poorly formed.

And if you extend the question to that of the by-laws, then the members list.


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> Also, FestivaRep has provided a statement denying any involvement that Festiva may have had in the financing of NEVS/Outfield's purchase of the resorts.
> 
> I withdraw my previous assertion along those lines.



Eric, this whole relationship is still a mystery to me. Now Festiva is postioning itself as hands off company that HIRED Outfield third party. Outfield is a marketing company...how are they entitled to the HOA list to sell for the company that hired them? This seems to put Outfield in left field and yet they have front and center access to people's addresses, their deed info, home phone numbers, etc. so that they can fly around the country deeds and hand and sell the company that HIRED them. Something does not add up. I respect how Festiva rep is handling herself here...but the pieces just don't fit together.


----------



## ecwinch

Fig said:


> Eric, this whole relationship is still a mystery to me. Now Festiva is postioning itself as hands off company that HIRED Outfield third party. Outfield is a marketing company...how are they entitled to the HOA list to sell for the company that hired them? This seems to put Outfield in left field and yet they have front and center access to people's addresses, their deed info, home phone numbers, etc. so that they can fly around the country deeds and hand and sell the company that HIRED them. Something does not add up. I respect how Festiva rep is handling herself here...but the pieces just don't fit together.



Perhaps FestivaRep will respond, but my understanding was she stated eariler that Festiva DID NOT provide the list to Outfield.

Outfield is co-owner of the developer rights. They have access to the list in that capacity.


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## Fig

*Paging Sou13*

Hey, Sou...can you find out from any of your Peppertree contacts how Festiva leveraged its way in there? It seems in MA they have Cliff who teamed up with Outfield...so they get 1. a salesforce to sell points and 2. someone to give them access to the HOA deed owner info. 3. Someone with a real estate background who can sign the deeds over to the trust.  Without that kind of an infrastruture in place, it would seem to be hard to get into a property and sell points. It may have been covered here...but I forget?


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> Perhaps FestivaRep will respond, but my understanding was she stated eariler that Festiva DID NOT provide the list to Outfield.
> 
> Outfield is co-owner of the developer rights. They have access to the list in that capacity.



Thanks, Eric...is hard to see how Outfield Marketing is developing anything. Two trustee are listed in TX, the other in MD. Cliff is making developer decisions and doing foot work but he is not part of Outfield. Outfield was hired to sell points according to FestivaRep...so by throwing a few names on the Trustee list they get full access to owners. Still wondering what they used as collateral...that $1,400 little building in TX they list as their sales office sure didn't get them a $2.5 million loan. A conundrum indeed.


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## e.bram

Fig:
Why do you think banks needed a bailout.


----------



## TomBenoit

*FestivaRep - Here are some questions*

OK FestivaRep, perhaps you can provide an answer to the following:

Who is Jonathan Brown and did he tell us the truth?

He showed up at our house with a copy of our deed to Southcape back in December 2008.  He informed us that (some is scratched out on paper):

1) Festiva had purchased Southcape
2) Maintenance fees were going to $750/year
3) The ENTIRE septec system needed to be replaced for $5-10mm 
4) There would be a $500/yr assesment for at least 5 years until
    a) Septic is paid off
    b) There is a $2mm reserve
5) All of Soutcape was switching to II
6) We could avoid the increased maint/assesments by 'upgrading' to Festiva
    a) Year 1 of II would be included
    b) Year 1 of Festiva maint would be included
    c) We could 'opt out' of Festiva without penalty - anytime


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## Classylassy523

*Just curious ...*

I was just up on the Festiva website.  Clicked on the NEW, LATEST resort that has been added to the Festiva corral of resorts ... Southcape Resort and Club.  Now, I thought this was the Southcape Resort and Club in Mashpee, Massachusetts.  It is said to be on Cape Cod.  Read the following --

Festiva Resorts
This is a new website for Festiva Resorts’ Southcape Resort & Club. Here you can find everything you need to know about our fantastic property in Mashpee, Maine. Please feel free to navigate back to Festiva Resorts’ main site to learn more about the Festiva Family by clicking here.

We also have exciting features exclusively for our members, including a secure password-protected section that allows members to pay maintenance fees, request reservations and more! 

If you have any comments, suggestions, etc., please click here to send us an email or post comments under any article of this website. 

Okay ... this enquiring mind wants to know:
A)  Did they move the Southcape Resort?  And, when?
B)  Did they move Cape Cod?  Did they hook a chain on at Race Point and haul it up along the coast? 
C)  Just where is Mashpee, Maine?  Is it near the ocean?

Maybe you better get the Maine AG on board and up to speed on what has been going on.

I think Festiva needs to hire a good proofreader!

Jean


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## mweinberg

Classylassy523 said:


> Okay ... this enquiring mind wants to know:
> A)  Did they move the Southcape Resort?  And, when?
> B)  Did they move Cape Cod?  Did they hook a chain on at Race Point and haul it up along the coast?
> C)  Just where is Mashpee, Maine?  Is it near the ocean?
> 
> 
> Jean



The more important question, I think, is just HOW did Southcape become a member of Festiva's Family of Resorts.  Did the Southcape homeowners vote on this affiliation?  Are the homeowners receiving anything from Festiva in return?  Does Festiva own a majority of the weeks at Southcape?

I don't understand how Festiva can offer its members an opportunity to visit Southcape unless they own a significant inventory there.  

Michael
(Owner at Sandcastle)


----------



## Classylassy523

mweinberg said:


> The more important question, I think, is just HOW did Southcape become a member of Festiva's Family of Resorts.  Did the Southcape homeowners vote on this affiliation?  Are the homeowners receiving anything from Festiva in return?  Does Festiva own a majority of the weeks at Southcape?
> 
> I don't understand how Festiva can offer its members an opportunity to visit Southcape unless they own a significant inventory there.
> 
> Michael
> (Owner at Sandcastle)



Michael ...

Festiva makes it clear they do not own Southcape.  They list it as an affiliation with their Festiva Adventure Club.  

Interestingly enough ... Sandcastle is not listed at all.  With the aggressive selling that has been going on for almost a year, you would think it would be up there along with Southcape.  

But then again, Southcape is on Cape Cod in Maine and Sandcastle is on Cape Cod in Massachusetts (or at least it was the last time I checked).

Jean


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## e.bram

IMHO:
Festiva will not be a major player in SC. I doubt in many(any) owners of prime weeks will be suckered in to points. In this economy the seasonal owners by and large are probably looking to sell(get out) and won't investing any money in their worthless(and less) units. In Newport, where Wyndham manages mant TSes, they have closed their points conversion operation. (no more freebies for moocher me).
The real problem in NEVS  not  paying m/fs, which could raise  m/ss to the point where owners bail out, sending SC into death spiral as a  TS. Those who hang in(including NEVS) will do OK since the real estate is more valuable not being a TS.
NEVS waiver of m/fs must be addressed soon in court. All TS owners in Ma should chip in a take this issue to court ASAP.


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## Sou13

*Welcome, Tom Benoit!*

I'm glad you finally found us and sorry that I never got back to you.  I assumed that I had caught you home by some miracle on a Saturday afternoon and didn't want to press my luck.

Now that you've found us, are you happy with the Festiva Adventure Club?  I already know the answer, but would rather have you tell it.


----------



## Sou13

*Peppertree*



Fig said:


> Hey, Sou...can you find out from any of your Peppertree contacts how Festiva leveraged its way in there? It seems in MA they have Cliff who teamed up with Outfield...so they get 1. a salesforce to sell points and 2. someone to give them access to the HOA deed owner info. 3. Someone with a real estate background who can sign the deeds over to the trust.  Without that kind of an infrastruture in place, it would seem to be hard to get into a property and sell points. It may have been covered here...but I forget?


I'd like to hear an answer to this from FestivaRep!  I requested to join the group so that I could get some insight into how Festiva affects timeshare owners, but it was the EVTC that was taken over, not just a resort or two in their case.  Some settlement has been reached which seems to require that it be confidential and that all negative comments about Festiva be retracted.  As a result, the group is nearly dead.


----------



## TomBenoit

*Festiva Experience*



Sou13 said:


> I'm glad you finally found us and sorry that I never got back to you.  I assumed that I had caught you home by some miracle on a Saturday afternoon and didn't want to press my luck.
> 
> Now that you've found us, are you happy with the Festiva Adventure Club?  I already know the answer, but would rather have you tell it.



The only experience I have had so far with Festiva was when I contacted them to get the forms to cancel membership. After quite a challenge getting anyone to answer the phone, I finally got someone. They indicated that I could cancel - but - I would have to be current and pay the 2009 MF.  I explained that 1) I had been told that 2009 MF was included as part of the 'upgrade' cost, and 2) I had no intention of using the resorts. Their answer - too bad, so sad, show it to us in the fine print.  In short, I have paid the 2009 fees and received the forms.  I am figuring out if I can at least use the 2009 II exchange (I have lots of good experienec with RCI but II does not seem to be as customer frielndly). I am also wondering if I can 'sell' the Festiva points since I see Festiva points for sale on REDWEEK.COM.

I will be real interested in seeing if FESTIVAREP answers my post.


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## Sou13

*II Exchange*

When you convert your week to FAC points you have to spend the points at Festiva Resorts or have Festiva deposit a week into II for you.  This seems to be a problem for any FAC member whose week has already gone by, especially if it's a "gold" week because 2009 is more than 1/2 gone. 

I'm in contact with an owner who has never even belonged to II let alone exchanged her summer week, and now she has to spend her points somewhere before the end of the year.  If she wants to exchange through II there has to be a week deposited into II before she can do that.  You don't automatically get right to first use of the week you turned over to the Trust.  You have to request it no less than 12 months nor more than 13 months in advance!  That means that your 2009 Southcape week went to another FAC member, not to you.


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## TomBenoit

Sou13 said:


> When you convert your week to FAC points you have to spend the points at Festiva Resorts or have Festiva deposit a week into II for you.  This seems to be a problem for any FAC member whose week has already gone by, especially if it's a "gold" week because 2009 is more than 1/2 gone.
> 
> I'm in contact with an owner who has never even belonged to II let alone exchanged her summer week, and now she has to spend her points somewhere before the end of the year.  If she wants to exchange through II there has to be a week deposited into II before she can do that.  You don't automatically get right to first use of the week you turned over to the Trust.  You have to request it no less than 12 months nor more than 13 months in advance!  That means that your 2009 Southcape week went to another FAC member, not to you.



Help me understand.  Does this mean that, since the deal was done in December, I have no option,other than to use the points at a Festiva Resort because a request was not made to enter a week into II?  If so - then the 2009 II memebership is a total farce since I will not be able to use it.  That is NOT what was explained. The indicated that out Festiva points are II points.


----------



## tombo

TomBenoit said:


> Help me understand.  Does this mean that, since the deal was done in December, I have no option,other than to use the points at a Festiva Resort because a request was not made to enter a week into II?  If so - then the 2009 II memebership is a total farce since I will not be able to use it.  That is NOT what was explained. The indicated that out Festiva points are II points.



You can use your FAC points at a Festiva resort, or you can let Festiva deposit whatever week they feel like depositing with II to establish you a deposit to be used for an II trade. Sou is right, at this late date there are very few (if any) prime weeks they could deposit with II for you, even if they actually wanted to deposit a prime week into your II account. You are most likely screwed for your 2009 week, especially if you are filling out paperwork to quit FAC. 

The salesperson lied. Your FAC points are Festiva points which are only good at Festiva points resorts BASED ON AVAILABILITY. You can request summer on the cape through Festiva, but there are very few summer prime weeks owned by Festiva (thank goodness most owners of prime weeks don't convert to FAC), so a lot of FAC members are fighting over the very limited Festiva owned prime weeks. You will get some 2009 II trade power if you joined II, but since you haven't deposited your Festiva points with II at this late date (near the end of summer vacation), you will not have access to much of II's inventory. I would love for some FAC members to give us personal experiences, but IMO you will never get a great II trade using Festiva points. I doubt that Festive will deposit one of their limited number of prime weeks with II for you because I would assume that Festiva will keep it's limited prime inventory for FAC members to trade for internally. II is like RCI, if you deposit a weak week, only weak weaks will be available to exchange for. The exchange power with II for the week Festiva will deposit for you will probably be crappy with very few good resorts and very few good weeks showing availability based on the Festiva deposit in your II account.

Basically from your description almost nothing they told you at the Festiva sales presentation was true. We on TUG are so sorry for you and we constantly post here to try and prevent others from falling victim to Festiva's lies. Join Sou in the lawsuit and file a complaint with the MA Attorney General.


----------



## Sou13

*Here's how Festiva/II works*

The sad truth for TomBenoit is that he was exchanging through RCI and no longer has that option.  He has to spend his points at a Festiva Resort or get Festiva to find a comparable week (points-wise) to deposit for him into II.

The former red week owner I cited above has shared her experience with me.  She looked in the II catalog (which the salesperson never left as part of her $79 leather binder package) and found a friend who would be willing to visit a resort somewhere in Arizona in November.  She tried to do the exchange online to save $10 but couldn't do it because, although she had a confirmation # from Festiva, she still needed a resort/week to deposit.  When Festiva deposited a week (worth 4500 points, leaving her 300 to carry over to 2010) she was able to get confirmation of the exchange and proceed to book airfare etc.

Never having used II for exchange, she's excited about the upcoming trip, but why, I must ask, did she have to forfeit her deed to her "red" week at Southcape in order to do this?  In my opinion, Festiva should be paying her for her week!  She can no longer rent it or use it, her MF for 4800 Festiva points is higher than the MF for Southcape, and she had to pay $3185 to Outfield Marketing for something she could have done for less than $250 (I'm not sure how much the annual membership in II + the exchange fee comes to)!


----------



## Carolinian

What is really outrageous is management which would give a membership list to these non-member scam artists at Outfield who lie to members to try to take their property away from them for worthless points, but will not give it to actual resort members with legitimate concerns about resort governance that they want to communicate with other members about.




Fig said:


> Eric, this whole relationship is still a mystery to me. Now Festiva is postioning itself as hands off company that HIRED Outfield third party. Outfield is a marketing company...how are they entitled to the HOA list to sell for the company that hired them? This seems to put Outfield in left field and yet they have front and center access to people's addresses, their deed info, home phone numbers, etc. so that they can fly around the country deeds and hand and sell the company that HIRED them. Something does not add up. I respect how Festiva rep is handling herself here...but the pieces just don't fit together.


----------



## Classylassy523

Sou13 ...

This is a good example of why those salespeople do not give owners any kind of information or brochures before they sign on the dotted line.  If any one had paper work with definitive information FAC would no longer exist because people would not be giving up their deeded weeks.  All it takes is some quiet time to think and reason it out, put the numbers together, look at the positive and negative sides of the points system, and deeded owners would keep their weeks.  

Heck ... you can go up on Ebay and other places and buy weeks for pennies, pay the MFs annually, and have those weeks to trade through RCI, etc.  Still cheaper than FAC and probably less headaches.

Jean


----------



## Carolinian

The way some of this ''marketing'' is done for points scheme ''conversions'', and this is not the only one where it is done, someone ought to be talking to some prosecutors.  I suspect that many states have an equivalent of North Carolina's felony statute for Obtaining Property by False Pretenses.  You need to have someone look at the laws in the state where it occured to see if there is any way to go after the perps.





tombo said:


> You can use your FAC points at a Festiva resort, or you can let Festiva deposit whatever week they feel like depositing with II to establish you a deposit to be used for an II trade. Sou is right, at this late date there are very few (if any) prime weeks they could deposit with II for you, even if they actually wanted to deposit a prime week into your II account. You are most likely screwed for your 2009 week, especially if you are filling out paperwork to quit FAC.
> 
> The salesperson lied. Your FAC points are Festiva points which are only good at Festiva points resorts BASED ON AVAILABILITY. You can request summer on the cape through Festiva, but there are very few summer prime weeks owned by Festiva (thank goodness most owners of prime weeks don't convert to FAC), so a lot of FAC members are fighting over the very limited Festiva owned prime weeks. You will get some 2009 II trade power if you joined II, but since you haven't deposited your Festiva points with II at this late date (near the end of summer vacation), you will not have access to much of II's inventory. I would love for some FAC members to give us personal experiences, but IMO you will never get a great II trade using Festiva points. I doubt that Festive will deposit one of their limited number of prime weeks with II for you because I would assume that Festiva will keep it's limited prime inventory for FAC members to trade for internally. II is like RCI, if you deposit a weak week, only weak weaks will be available to exchange for. The exchange power with II for the week Festiva will deposit for you will probably be crappy with very few good resorts and very few good weeks showing availability based on the Festiva deposit in your II account.
> 
> Basically from your description almost nothing they told you at the Festiva sales presentation was true. We on TUG are so sorry for you and we constantly post here to try and prevent others from falling victim to Festiva's lies. Join Sou in the lawsuit and file a complaint with the MA Attorney General.


----------



## Classylassy523

Carolinian said:


> What is really outrageous is management which would give a membership list to these non-member scam artists at Outfield who lie to members to try to take their property after from them for worthless points, but will not give it to actual resort members with legitimate concerns about resort governance that they want to communicate with other members about.



Management didn't have to give it to them.  They are on the Board of Trustees ... they have their own copy.  But, a good question, is it legal for a member of the Board to use the list of owners to sell them anything that is not directly a part of the resort?  Can a member of the Board sell _anything_ at all to people on that list?  Isn't there a question of ethics or conflict of interest?

Jean


----------



## Carolinian

ecwinch said:


> Is not the issue of the developer inventory being exempt from m/f the only issue that involves a violation of the Master Deed?
> 
> I know it has been some time since we discussed those issues surrounding the Master Deed, but that is the only one I am aware of.
> 
> The issue of the developer inventory being exempt from the special assessment is supported by the Master Deed. Unjust, but supported. As is their authority to control the HOA - given that the developer control provisions are so poorly formed.
> 
> And if you extend the question to that of the by-laws, then the members list.



Generally, in the law, a rule of construction is that any vague provision is construed AGAINST whoever drafted it.  Since the Master Deed was drafted by the developer or its agents, then any ambiguities about developer control of the HOA should be construed against the developer if the matter ever gets to court.


----------



## mayorpw

Classylassy523 said:


> Sou13 ...
> 
> This is a good example of why those salespeople do not give owners any kind of information or brochures before they sign on the dotted line.  If any one had paper work with definitive information FAC would no longer exist because people would not be giving up their deeded weeks.  All it takes is some quiet time to think and reason it out, put the numbers together, look at the positive and negative sides of the points system, and deeded owners would keep their weeks.
> 
> Heck ... you can go up on Ebay and other places and buy weeks for pennies, pay the MFs annually, and have those weeks to trade through RCI, etc.  Still cheaper than FAC and probably less headaches.
> 
> Jean



so i take it that you are an authority on this whole thing and we should rely on what you say is 100% true and when you are proved wrong what will you say then?


----------



## Sou13

*Why buy?*

The only reason I can see for buying a timeshare is to be able to join II!  If you can rent a week you get to choose from the available weeks for rent.  Or if you own a week and join II you can get getaway weeks for less than the going rental rate.

I'm no authority but I'm really disenchanted with owning a timeshare.


----------



## Classylassy523

mayorpw said:


> so i take it that you are an authority on this whole thing and we should rely on what you say is 100% true and when you are proved wrong what will you say then?



You can take it any way you want.  I stated my opinion and no where did I express being an authority.  I asked nor told you or anyone to rely on my statements as 100% true.  

*If and when *it should prove out that I am wrong ... I will be the first to admit it.  

Did I touch a nerve?  Am I too close to the truth for comfort?????


----------



## Classylassy523

Sou13 said:


> The only reason I can see for buying a timeshare is to be able to join II!  If you can rent a week you get to choose from the available weeks for rent.  Or if you own a week and join II you can get getaway weeks for less than the going rental rate.
> 
> I'm no authority but I'm really disenchanted with owning a timeshare.



Sou13 ...
Maybe I am an exception, but I have never traded my week.  I purchased my week at Sandcastle in 1982 and have gone there every year.  I was a widowed mother with 3 young children and it gave me an affordable place to take my children on vacation.  They have since grown and moved away and now I along with my friends and family continue to use it every year.  I gave up my membership in RCI years ago because I knew I would never use it.  I figured that if and I when I decided to trade my time, I could rejoin RCI then.  

I should think that if a person or couple have reached a point in their lives where they want to travel and see the world, owning weeks in timeshares would or could be an inexpensive way to do it.  I suppose it would depend on how wisely they choose their weeks and resorts.  But, like I said, I am no authority or have any experience in trading weeks and/or resorts.

Jean


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> Generally, in the law, a rule of construction is that any vague provision is construed AGAINST whoever drafted it.  Since the Master Deed was drafted by the developer or its agents, then any ambiguities about developer control of the HOA should be construed against the developer if the matter ever gets to court.



The current developer did not draft the Master Deed.

Also, it is complicated by the fact that the Governing Documents were drafted in accordance with Mass Condo law, and it predates the Mass Timeshare Regulations. 

And the developer control provisions are not vague. They just are unlikely to be met. They outline that developer control will be phased out as project reaches certain thresholds of development. Unfortunately the previous developer had some of the land seized by the township for taxes. So it is highly unlikely that the number of units called for in the Master Deed will ever be built. Which leaves Cliff in control.


----------



## ecwinch

mayorpw said:


> so i take it that you are an authority on this whole thing and we should rely on what you say is 100% true and when you are proved wrong what will you say then?



How will you prove her wrong? Do you have some inside information on the sales process?


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> Sou13 ...
> 
> This is a good example of why those salespeople do not give owners any kind of information or brochures before they sign on the dotted line.  If any one had paper work with definitive information FAC would no longer exist because people would not be giving up their deeded weeks.  All it takes is some quiet time to think and reason it out, put the numbers together, look at the positive and negative sides of the points system, and deeded owners would keep their weeks.
> Jean



Wait until they whip out the purchase documents. When you see how many pages they are, stop and say "well this looks complicated, I think I need to have my attorney review this before I sign"

Then leave with the documents.

You also can request a copy of the public offering statement in advance.


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> Management didn't have to give it to them.  They are on the Board of Trustees ... they have their own copy.  But, a good question, is it legal for a member of the Board to use the list of owners to sell them anything that is not directly a part of the resort?  Can a member of the Board sell _anything_ at all to people on that list?  Isn't there a question of ethics or conflict of interest?
> 
> Jean



FAC is another exchange opportunity for members. A BoD can make a decision to market products to their members. 

But in this case, I think they would point to their right to access the list as the developer, rather than as a member of the Board.

There is a conflict of interest issue, but that is not exactly the silver bullet. The By-laws recognize and allow for a conflict of interest to exist. The developer has an inherent conflict of interest for example.


----------



## tombo

Classylassy523 said:


> You can take it any way you want.  I stated my opinion and no where did I express being an authority.  I asked nor told you or anyone to rely on my statements as 100% true.
> 
> *If and when *it should prove out that I am wrong ... I will be the first to admit it.
> 
> Did I touch a nerve?  Am I too close to the truth for comfort?????




Don't let Mayor get to you. Mayor is Cliff or one of Cliff's cronies IMO. 

No one posts positive things about timeshare salesman's ethics or disclosures of facts during sales presentations because to say that they were forthcoming, honest, and above reproach would be showing either ignorance or bias. If a timeshare salesman told the truth about limited exchange availability for prime weeks and locations (with either internal points or exchange companies), if they told the truth about what the weeks/points were worth resale as soon as they sign the purchase contract, and if they told potential buyers what they could buy the same thing resale for on e-bay they would never sell a week or a point. Shadows and lies are the only way to sell Timeshares retail. 

To Cliff or Mayor (whichever screen name wants to respond), since you feel like proving your point that the timeshare salesmen do the right thing in the sales process, how about giving new FAC points club members the TUG web site information with their paperwork they get after they have purchased. Let them have the TUG internet information before the recission period has passed. Let them read the posts here and make up their minds for themselves after accessing new information that exposes the lies told by the sales people. If the salesmen are telling truths and not misleading customers then having access to TUG won't cost you a single sale because no one will rescind. We both know that you would have about 100% recission rate if people could ask people on TUG questions about their purchase in time to rescind. However feel free to prove us wrong and give the TUG information to all new members.

The internet is the Timeshare industries worst enemy because with facts and information retail buyers become resale buyers or non buyers. Read the Points Festiva thread where one of Festiva's uninformed customers recently found TUG, read differents posts enlightening them on the situation, and then promptly rescinded. We will gladly spread the facts to all who find us. If only the retail customers could have access to a computer during the sales presentations to type in questions for TUG members as they faced the salesperson's claims, then the buyer could buy after truly being informed. Of course if that actually happened, virtually no one would buy.


----------



## mweinberg

ecwinch said:


> Wait until they whip out the purchase documents. When you see how many pages they are, stop and say "well this looks complicated, I think I need to have my attorney review this before I sign"
> 
> Then leave with the documents.
> 
> You also can request a copy of the public offering statement in advance.



Actually, I tried what you suggested, only because I wanted to walk out with a copy of the contract to see what it said.

Said I, "Well, let me show the contract to my financial advisor and my attorney, and I'll get back to you."

Said Outfield, "There is no contract, just some paperwork required by the state of Massachusetts.  Besides, I only get paid to talk to you once.  Once I get up from the table, the deal disappears."

I pointed out to him that my father had warned me about guys like him!

Michael


----------



## tombo

mweinberg said:


> Said I, "Well, let me show the contract to my financial advisor and my attorney, and I'll get back to you."
> 
> Said Outfield, "There is no contract, just some paperwork required by the state of Massachusetts.



No contract, just some paperwork. :hysterical::rofl: :hysterical:

Tell Festiva that you didn't sign a contract when you try to get your deeded week back or when you want to quit FAC and/or don't want to pay the annual FAC dues. Explain to them that according to the salesman that there was no contract and watch them produce the paperwork you signed that was required by the state of Massachusetts. That paperwork that Massachusetts requires is more commonly referred to as a contract.


Someone needs to go through the whole presentation and get a contract to let everyone peruse. Someone can sign everything like you were going to buy, get copies of everything which they are required by law to give you, and then you simply rescind the next day. 

Eric, you probably have more legal expertise than any here. Does Festiva have to give you copies of all of the contracts even if you won't agree to buy and even if you won't sign the contracts (oops I meant sign the paperwork required by the State of Missouri since there is no contract)?


----------



## SCapeOwnersRUS

*Who Gets The $ 3,000.00?? You Are Trying To Charge*



FestivaRep said:


> I haven't posted on this thread before, but many of you will already know me from other threads.  If you're not familiar with me, please feel free to look at my previous posts.  I just wanted to say hello and that I will try to be active on this thread as well.
> 
> Since this is specifically about Southcape, i will address one issue that I was specifically asked to address on the board: to clarify the relationship between our company and the two resorts in Mass. Festiva Resorts does not own or manage either Southcape or Sandcastle. Further, we do not own NEVS or Outfield. Outfield is the company we have hired to offer optional upgrades to the Festiva Adventure Club program from a deeded week.
> 
> If you have specific questions or concerns you can post them here and I will try to answer them, or you can send an e-mail with detailed information to comments@festivaresorts.com.
> 
> Thanks.



The $ 3,000.00 you are trying to charge as told by the rep "Outfield or NEVS or whoever" goes some to NEVS some to Outfiled and some to Festiva.. 
WHY?
Principals of Festiva Outfield and NEVS are all interrelated into the same goal and entity it seems. Are there attempts to try and take control of these RESORTS or not ? 
Meanwhile THERE IS NO WIRELESS INTERNET as of 8/4/09 NO improvements per the budget that was proposed and THREATS by the OUTFIELD rep that UNLESS Payments are made and deeded weeks surrendered there will be ongoing assessments the most immediate of which will be for sewer of approximately $ 1.3 million and that if any are levied no matter how much they are they will be an effect an impact on deeded weeks personal credit with the only remedy to transfer the deed to Festiva.....
How is that LEGAL and ETHICAL???
Where is Cliff Hagberg? Why is he not at the resort ? Why are these marketing reps occupying a unit ( Unit # 32) set up as a sales office during thye height of the season, and trying to set up meetings with everyone at the resort, owbers as well as renters?


----------



## ecwinch

mweinberg said:


> Actually, I tried what you suggested, only because I wanted to walk out with a copy of the contract to see what it said.
> 
> Said I, "Well, let me show the contract to my financial advisor and my attorney, and I'll get back to you."
> 
> Said Outfield, "There is no contract, just some paperwork required by the state of Massachusetts.  Besides, I only get paid to talk to you once.  Once I get up from the table, the deal disappears."
> 
> I pointed out to him that my father had warned me about guys like him!
> 
> Michael



You had the contract in front of you ready to sign. How did they stop you from leaving with it?


----------



## jannibaby

*Wireless internet access*

One of the last posts regarding wi-fi caught my eye.  When we were at Southcape 7/4 - 7/11, the wireless wasn't working (we expected that).  We called right away anyway to see what they had to say.  They said, any day.  About 5 minutes later someone from the front desk called back and asked if we had a laptop with us and if we had checked to see if there was a  connection.  We said that we had.  They said well it is up and certain units are able to connect.  Towards the end of the week, we were able to see Southcape as a very weak connection but it was secured and we didn't have the password.  To be honest, we didn't call to get it the next day as it slipped our minds.  

We did speak to Rosaleen about it (before we saw the network available).  She said the person who was installing it had surgery.  We right away said that is what you said in May at the annual meeting.  She said that the guy had a tendon replaced in his foot and it had gotten infected, etc. etc.  She did say that some of the units were able to connect (perhaps Condo II).  

Anyway, just wanted to share that we could see a network.  If and when it is up and running, if the signal strength is that poor, it won't be usable anyway.  It is quite troubling that it is not up yet.  

Janice


----------



## Classylassy523

ecwinch said:


> FAC is another exchange opportunity for members. A BoD can make a decision to market products to their members.
> 
> But in this case, I think they would point to their right to access the list as the developer, rather than as a member of the Board.
> 
> There is a conflict of interest issue, but that is not exactly the silver bullet. The By-laws recognize and allow for a conflict of interest to exist. The developer has an inherent conflict of interest for example.



It would seem to me that when the developer is selling deeded weeks there would be no conflict of interest.  That is, or should be, the purpose of the developer.  

Selling another company's product totally, and *NOT selling deeded weeks *, seems to me a purposeful conflict of interest.   These people make *NO* effort to sell deeded weeks.  I don't care what Cliff Hagberg says.  Here it is August and even the website has NO information about purchasing deeded weeks.  If Outfield Marketing was making an honest effort to sell deeded weeks they would not be telling prospective customers that deeded weeks aren't worth the paper they are printed on.  

The funds earned from the sale of these FAC memberships ... who gets that money?  Does it go into the resort's coffers or do they go into the pockets of Outfield Marketing and NEVS?  

Maybe if Cliff was providing the transparency he has been touting for months, these questions wouldn't have to be asked.

Ethics ... that isn't something we will see from this management team.  Lots of semantics, talking out of both sides of their mouths, stonewalling and totally ignoring the owners ... that seems to be in abundance.

Jean


----------



## Classylassy523

*Mayor/Cape/Viv/Mass/NEVS and whoever else Cliff invents*



tombo said:


> Don't let Mayor get to you. Mayor is Cliff or one of Cliff's cronies IMO.



The Mayor didn't get to me ... but I think I got to him.  Seems to me I might have touched a nerve with what I said.  Why else would there be that kind of reaction?

Jean


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> It would seem to me that when the developer is selling deeded weeks there would be no conflict of interest.  That is, or should be, the purpose of the developer.
> 
> Selling another company's product totally, and *NOT selling deeded weeks *, seems to me a purposeful conflict of interest.   These people make *NO* effort to sell deeded weeks.  I don't care what Cliff Hagberg says.  Here it is August and even the website has NO information about purchasing deeded weeks.  If Outfield Marketing was making an honest effort to sell deeded weeks they would not be telling prospective customers that deeded weeks aren't worth the paper they are printed on.
> 
> The funds earned from the sale of these FAC memberships ... who gets that money?  Does it go into the resort's coffers or do they go into the pockets of Outfield Marketing and NEVS?
> 
> Maybe if Cliff was providing the transparency he has been touting for months, these questions wouldn't have to be asked.
> 
> Ethics ... that isn't something we will see from this management team.  Lots of semantics, talking out of both sides of their mouths, stonewalling and totally ignoring the owners ... that seems to be in abundance.
> 
> Jean



So, you feel that it inappropriate for the developer to offer different options for owners to use their timeshare? It really is commonplace in the timeshare industry. For instance, my South Padre timeshare offers the option to convert into RCI Points. Some resorts get a small cut, but it is not a 100% rule. Generally speaking the fee goes to the pts developer and the sales agent.

I am on the same side as you are, but would you feel the same way if Outfield was not using questionable sales tactics, and the points system was Disney Vacation Club?


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> So, you feel that it inappropriate for the developer to offer different options for owners to use their timeshare? It really is commonplace in the timeshare industry. For instance, my South Padre timeshare offers the option to convert into RCI Points. Some resorts get a small cut, but it is not a 100% rule. Generally speaking the fee goes to the pts developer and the sales agent.
> 
> I am on the same side as you are, but would you feel the same way if Outfield was not using questionable sales tactics, and the points system was Disney Vacation Club?



Bad examples IMO.

Yes DVC points would be a valuable option since they are expensive to buy, they rent for high dollars, and are very hard to trade for. Festiva points are cheap if not free to buy resale, the resorts don't typically rent for high dollars, and you can easily trade for off season Festiva resorts.

Yes RCI points are also a good option for owners who like to travel for stays of shorter than a week and who want to trade for some locations that are hard to get through RCI weeks, but unlike Festiva Points you remain the owner of your deeded week if you join the RCI points program. You can opt out of the RCI points program altogether or you have the option to use the week you own every year. With Festiv points you are stuck as a member for 30 years, you give up all rights to your deeded week, and you are not even guaranteed to ever be able to stay a week at the resort you used to own ever again.

The developer is not offering any sort of decent option to owners, the developer is offering Outfield,NEVMS, and Festiva the opportunity to make money while screwing owners out of deeded weeks that they have paid for and own. I know you are playing devil's advocate, but in this case no one wins but the devil's triumvirate of Festiva/Outfield/NEVMS when an owner permanently gives up their deeded week and $3000 of their hard earned money for Festiva points that are almost worthless.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> The developer is not offering any sort of decent option to owners, the developer is offering Outfield,NEVMS, and Festiva the opportunity to make money while screwing owners out of deeded weeks that they have paid for and own. I know you are playing devil's advocate, but in this case no one wins but the devil's triumvirate of Festiva/Outfield/NEVMS when an owner permanently gives up their deeded week and $3000 of their hard earned money for Festiva points that are almost worthless.



You know my examples are only to illustrate that the practice of offering owners other ways to use their week is commonplace in the industry, and the opinion that she would not be questioning that practice if the sales methods were professional and the product worthwhile. 

She seemed to be questioning the legality of the whole arrangement. I was not comparing Festiva to DVC. 

ps. I think we need to lure Cliff back here....


----------



## SCapeOwnersRUS

Classylassy523 said:


> It would seem to me that when the developer is selling deeded weeks there would be no conflict of interest.  That is, or should be, the purpose of the developer.
> 
> Selling another company's product totally, and *NOT selling deeded weeks *, seems to me a purposeful conflict of interest.   These people make *NO* effort to sell deeded weeks.  I don't care what Cliff Hagberg says.  Here it is August and even the website has NO information about purchasing deeded weeks.  If Outfield Marketing was making an honest effort to sell deeded weeks they would not be telling prospective customers that deeded weeks aren't worth the paper they are printed on.
> 
> The funds earned from the sale of these FAC memberships ... who gets that money?  Does it go into the resort's coffers or do they go into the pockets of Outfield Marketing and NEVS?
> 
> Maybe if Cliff was providing the transparency he has been touting for months, these questions wouldn't have to be asked.
> 
> Ethics ... that isn't something we will see from this management team.  Lots of semantics, talking out of both sides of their mouths, stonewalling and totally ignoring the owners ... that seems to be in abundance.
> 
> Jean



THE MONEY ACCORDING TO THE OUTFIELD REP GOES SOME TO FESTIVA SOME TO OUTFIELD AND SOME TO NEVS


----------



## SCapeOwnersRUS

*HOW ABOUT A rebate for no wireless internet ???????*



jannibaby said:


> One of the last posts regarding wi-fi caught my eye.  When we were at Southcape 7/4 - 7/11, the wireless wasn't working (we expected that).  We called right away anyway to see what they had to say.  They said, any day.  About 5 minutes later someone from the front desk called back and asked if we had a laptop with us and if we had checked to see if there was a  connection.  We said that we had.  They said well it is up and certain units are able to connect.  Towards the end of the week, we were able to see Southcape as a very weak connection but it was secured and we didn't have the password.  To be honest, we didn't call to get it the next day as it slipped our minds.
> 
> We did speak to Rosaleen about it (before we saw the network available).  She said the person who was installing it had surgery.  We right away said that is what you said in May at the annual meeting.  She said that the guy had a tendon replaced in his foot and it had gotten infected, etc. etc.  She did say that some of the units were able to connect (perhaps Condo II).
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to share that we could see a network.  If and when it is up and running, if the signal strength is that poor, it won't be usable anyway.  It is quite troubling that it is not up yet.
> 
> Janice



We paid $ 400.00 per week or so to have among other things wireless internet.
The guy had surgery give me a break!!!! One guy handling the set up of wireless intenet.. WE SHOULD ALL BE ENTITLED TO A REBATE FOR THE LACK OF WIRELESS INTERNET FOR THE WEEKS WE WERE THERE.

WE WERE THERE WEEKS AFTER YOU AND TOLD THE SAME STORIES BUT THERE WAS NO WIRELESS INTERNET...

HOW ABOUT A REBATE TO ALL OF THE OWNERS WHO PAID FOR IT AND DIDNT GET IT ?????


----------



## Classylassy523

ecwinch said:


> So, you feel that it inappropriate for the developer to offer different options for owners to use their timeshare? It really is commonplace in the timeshare industry. For instance, my South Padre timeshare offers the option to convert into RCI Points. Some resorts get a small cut, but it is not a 100% rule. Generally speaking the fee goes to the pts developer and the sales agent.
> 
> I am on the same side as you are, but would you feel the same way if Outfield was not using questionable sales tactics, and the points system was Disney Vacation Club?



I don't have a problem with offering different options, but they are NOT doing that.  Where are these different options?  They are offering FAC tied in with II, PERIOD!  When RCI is brought up they lie and say RCI is out of the picture.  

To me it is insulting and a slap in the face that they are arrogant enough to not even make a half-hearted effort to even appear to want to sell deeded weeks.

These people are doing what is best for them and have no regard for anyone else.

Jean


----------



## Classylassy523

*Cliff/Mayor/Viv/Capeguitarguy/Massman/ et al*



ecwinch said:


> ps. I think we need to lure Cliff back here....



Cliff is here .... I think his latest alter ego is Mayor with an aim to distract from a thread when topics get too close to the target and make him nervous.


----------



## ecwinch

Classylassy523 said:


> Cliff is here .... I think his latest alter ego is Mayor with an aim to distract from a thread when topics get too close to the target and make him nervous.



I do not think it is Cliff unless he had a lobotomy. Cliff's posts were a lot more intelligent and well written. Cliff bothered to actual make a point and express an opinion.

Of maybe it is Cliff, and his partners gave him one to shut him up....


----------



## ClamsCasino

We were promised wireless internet, a new phone system, and a painted pool - can't they get anything right?  Can't they just send someone else out from Comcast


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> I do not think it is Cliff unless he had a lobotomy. Cliff's posts were a lot more intelligent and well written. Cliff bothered to actual make a point and express an opinion.
> 
> Of maybe it is Cliff, and his partners gave him one to shut him up....



I was thinking that Festiva Rep came here to try and do some damage control to try and mitigate what Cliff and his alter egos have been doing. Cliff probably was issued a gag order by Festiva and Outfield which is why he no longer posts here as Cliff. Of course he can keep inventing new posters to try and fool not only us, but also to fool the people at Festiva/Outfield who won't let him come and post with us anymore. Come on Festiva/outfield, let Cliff come back and play. We learned so much from him and his aliases.

With Cliff's ego you know that being banished from here was a blow because he was so knowledgable about timeshares that he was going to run verbal circles around all the uneducated bumpkins on this site. That didn't work so well and he got caught in more and more lies. So in comes Festivarep to save the day and shut Cliff up. Now we will see what spin Festiva Rep and the PR department at Festiva can put on the damage that has already been done and how well they can muzzle Cliff,cape,mass,viv,prof,stein, etc.


----------



## ChrisH

*Here is OCTOMAN - just spying*



Classylassy523 said:


> Cliff is here .... I think his latest alter ego is Mayor with an aim to distract from a thread when topics get too close to the target and make him nervous.



 :ignore: NEVMSLLC  
Status: Guest 
Last Activity: August 4, 2009 10:26 AM

:ignore: Yesterday he was:
mayorpw  
Status: Guest 
Last Activity: August 3, 2009 02:36 PM

He gives up each new identity as he gets caught.  ProfPaul is gone, Vivmarch is gone, massman is gone.  When will 'mayorpw' morph?:hysterical: :hysterical:


----------



## tombo

ChrisH said:


> :ignore: NEVMSLLC
> Status: Guest
> Last Activity: August 4, 2009 10:26 AM
> 
> :ignore: Yesterday he was:
> mayorpw
> Status: Guest
> Last Activity: August 3, 2009 02:36 PM
> 
> He gives up each new identity as he gets caught.  ProfPaul is gone, Vivmarch is gone, massman is gone.  When will 'mayorpw' morph?:hysterical: :hysterical:



Next is governor pw, followed by senator pw, and finally president pw.


----------



## e.bram

How about:
HisHonorpw  or
His Royal Highness pw


----------



## Classylassy523

tombo said:


> Next is governor pw, followed by senator pw, and finally president pw.



He is already KING ... King of the castle ... *his* words describing his position at the Sandcastle.  And, according to the king ... he will stay the king until enough units have been sold for the owners to take over.


----------



## SCapeOwnersRUS

*Can We Get a REFUND*



ClamsCasino said:


> We were promised wireless internet, a new phone system, and a painted pool - can't they get anything right?  Can't they just send someone else out from Comcast



Don't you think those ofus taht spent our summer vacations there without these things yet paid for them are entitled toa REFUND?????????????????


----------



## Sou13

*Request to see the books*

I don't know about a refund, but I want to see proof that the special assessment isn't going for improvements at Sandcastle!

The "trustees" are supposed to deposit the money in a bank account from which money can be withdrawn for the repairs and renovations.  Ask to see the bank statements!


----------



## ChrisH

*Google Festiva Resorts and see their 'new' address!!!!*

Just googled Festiva Resorts to see if there were any new reports and lookee, lookee - they have a NEW address in Denton, TX - on good ole Hickory Street, who woulda thought!!!!  



Festiva Resorts LLC 135 E Hickory St Denton, TX 76201-4215 - (940) 565-0030
Write a review - Directions and more »
maps.google.com

Chris


----------



## tombo

ChrisH said:


> Just googled Festiva Resorts to see if there were any new reports and lookee, lookee - they have a NEW address in Denton, TX - on good ole Hickory Street, who woulda thought!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Festiva Resorts LLC 135 E Hickory St Denton, TX 76201-4215 - (940) 565-0030
> Write a review - Directions and more »
> maps.google.com
> 
> Chris



Curious since Festiva Rep assured us that Festiva had no association with Outfield other than outfield was hired to sell Festiva points. Of course Outfield had so many complaints that Festiva will no longer let them sell on site at several of their resorts, but they still contract them to sell at Southscape, Sandcastle, and in people's homes. I had asked the Festiva Rep last Friday why Outfield was unacceptable to sell on site at some of their properties but yet they were still allowed to sell Festiva points in people's homes? She said she would get back to me after the weekend on that question and several more. Others have questions waiting to be answered too, yet here it is Thursday and no response. 

When Festiva Rep does come back to answer questions, perhaps the question of why the Texas address (a state where Festiva has no timeshares) of 135 E Hickory St, Denton, TX which is a couple of doors up from the address of Outfield Marketing (212 E Hickory St, Denton, TX) would show up as a Festiva address when googled? Since  Festiva has no timeshare affiliations in Texas, and since Festiva supposedly has no affiliation with Outfield other than as a 3rd party sales force, why the new Texas address? If Festiva for some reason just wanted to have an office in Texas (far away from their nearest timeshare location), why in the largest  state in the US (square miles) would they locate their office in a relativelly small town of Denton, and on the same street as Outfield? The close proximity of these two addresses is not a coincidence. Outfield and Festiva are getting awfully cozy for 2 businesses that are totally separate.


----------



## mweinberg

tombo said:


> Curious since Festiva Rep assured us that Festiva had no association with Outfield other than outfield was hired to sell Festiva points. Of course Outfield had so many complaints that Festiva will no longer let them sell on site at several of their resorts, but they still contract them to sell at Southscape, Sandcastle, and in people's homes. I had asked the Festiva Rep last Friday why Outfield was unacceptable to sell on site at some of their properties but yet they were still allowed to sell Festiva points in people's homes? She said she would get back to me after the weekend on that question and several more. Others have questions waiting to be answered too, yet here it is Thursday and no response.
> 
> When Festiva Rep does come back to answer questions, perhaps the question of why the Texas address of Outfield (a state where Festiva has no timeshares) would show up as a Festiva address when googled? Since  Festiva has no timeshare affiliations in Texas, and if Festiva has no affiliation with Outfield other than as a 3rd party sales force, why the new Texas address?



I think we scared FestivaRep away!  Or maybe he/she is vacationing at some nice RCI property this week.


----------



## ChrisH

*ALL SAME TX ADDRESS - Outfield, Festiva, NEVMS*

If you google outfield marketing ltd - they have 2 addresses - same phone # - maybe they moved to get cozy 

135 E HICKORY ST  DENTON, TX  76201 Phone: (940) 566-5127 
and 
Outfield Marketing is located at 212 E Hickory St Denton, TX. Phone: 940-566-5127

FESTIVA Resorts, LLC  has this same 135 E Hickory address (although Festiva Adventure Club is in NC).

In the POS for the Commonwealth of MA, NEVS is listed at 135 E Hickory.

Intercity Escrow is in CA and Houston, TX - maybe they'll move soon :hysterical:


----------



## Sou13

*Here's some fodder for complaining to the AG*

*Failure to comply with chapter. 
Section 49. If a developer or any other person subject to this chapter fails to comply with any provision of this chapter or of the time-share instrument, any person or class of persons adversely affected by the failure to comply shall have a claim for appropriate relief. A failure to comply with the provisions of this chapter shall be deemed an unfair or deceptive act or practice under chapter ninety-three A.  (Chapter 183b Mass State Laws)*

And from the Master Deed, PAGE 030 (By-Laws p. 12):

*ARTICLE V
Control by Declarant
Section 1. Reservation of Control: The Declarant reserves the right to control the Corporation and its affairs as provided in Sections 2 and 3 of this Article, notwithstanding any provisions in Article VI or elsewhere in these Bylaws to the contrary. This reservation of control shall expire and this Article shall cease to be of any force or effect upon completion of the development of the Premises or upon the completion and occupation of one hundred and &ixty-three (163) Residential Units, whichever first occurs. The Declarant may/ however, prior to such expiration, at its option, relinquish by written notice to the Corporation all or any part of the control herein reserved to the Declarant/ in which case the provisions of this Article, except as necessary to accomplish the partial relinquishment of control, shall remain in effect.*

I'm reading the above to mean that, because there is no more land on which to develop more than the existing 55 units, no further development is possible, and therefore the development of the Premises has been completed.  Reading and studying a Master Deed are every owner's *right*, and complaining to the AG is a *responsibility* IMVHO.


----------



## Carolinian

Those ''unfair'' or ''deceptive'' acts in most state consumer protection laws also trigger such things as being able to collect your attorneys fees out of the defendant and / or treble monetary damages.  This could be huge.  The prospect of collecting attorneys fees from the defendant may help you get an attorney for a lower retainer or if you are lucky, maybe even no retainer at all.  I suggest you check those aspects of consumer protection law, and then get a group and go consult a local attorney.




Sou13 said:


> *Failure to comply with chapter.
> Section 49. If a developer or any other person subject to this chapter fails to comply with any provision of this chapter or of the time-share instrument, any person or class of persons adversely affected by the failure to comply shall have a claim for appropriate relief. A failure to comply with the provisions of this chapter shall be deemed an unfair or deceptive act or practice under chapter ninety-three A.  (Chapter 183b Mass State Laws)*
> 
> And from the Master Deed, PAGE 030 (By-Laws p. 12):
> 
> *ARTICLE V
> Control by Declarant
> Section 1. Reservation of Control: The Declarant reserves the right to control the Corporation and its affairs as provided in Sections 2 and 3 of this Article, notwithstanding any provisions in Article VI or elsewhere in these Bylaws to the contrary. This reservation of control shall expire and this Article shall cease to be of any force or effect upon completion of the development of the Premises or upon the completion and occupation of one hundred and &ixty-three (163) Residential Units, whichever first occurs. The Declarant may/ however, prior to such expiration, at its option, relinquish by written notice to the Corporation all or any part of the control herein reserved to the Declarant/ in which case the provisions of this Article, except as necessary to accomplish the partial relinquishment of control, shall remain in effect.*
> 
> I'm reading the above to mean that, because there is no more land on which to develop more than the existing 55 units, no further development is possible, and therefore the development of the Premises has been completed.  Reading and studying a Master Deed are every owner's *right*, and complaining to the AG is a *responsibility* IMVHO.


----------



## Sou13

*More irregularities*

These "developers" are trampling all over our "rights" as deeded owners of more than 1600 of 2800 Southcape intervals.  That's more than 51% but it just doesn't stop them.  I just did a "Corporate Search" for "Southcape Resort" http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/co...ReadFromDB=True&UpdateAllowed=&FEIN=042922230 and discovered that a new "clerk" has been added in place of Cliff Hagberg.  All without the corporate filings required by Massachusetts law and without an election by deeded interval owners.

Since the Master Deed has been taken off the website I can no longer direct anyone to the BOOK and PAGE which gives owners rights to elect directors of the Corporation.  This is outrageous!


----------



## FestivaRep

Obviously, "Maine" was a typo.  That was only on our website for about a day until I caught it.

Thanks



Classylassy523 said:


> I was just up on the Festiva website.  Clicked on the NEW, LATEST resort that has been added to the Festiva corral of resorts ... Southcape Resort and Club.  Now, I thought this was the Southcape Resort and Club in Mashpee, Massachusetts.  It is said to be on Cape Cod.  Read the following --
> 
> Festiva Resorts
> This is a new website for Festiva Resorts’ Southcape Resort & Club. Here you can find everything you need to know about our fantastic property in Mashpee, Maine. Please feel free to navigate back to Festiva Resorts’ main site to learn more about the Festiva Family by clicking here.
> 
> We also have exciting features exclusively for our members, including a secure password-protected section that allows members to pay maintenance fees, request reservations and more!
> 
> If you have any comments, suggestions, etc., please click here to send us an email or post comments under any article of this website.
> 
> Okay ... this enquiring mind wants to know:
> A)  Did they move the Southcape Resort?  And, when?
> B)  Did they move Cape Cod?  Did they hook a chain on at Race Point and haul it up along the coast?
> C)  Just where is Mashpee, Maine?  Is it near the ocean?
> 
> Maybe you better get the Maine AG on board and up to speed on what has been going on.
> 
> I think Festiva needs to hire a good proofreader!
> 
> Jean


----------



## FestivaRep

Festiva did not issue any such gag order to Cliff.



tombo said:


> I was thinking that Festiva Rep came here to try and do some damage control to try and mitigate what Cliff and his alter egos have been doing. Cliff probably was issued a gag order by Festiva and Outfield which is why he no longer posts here as Cliff. Of course he can keep inventing new posters to try and fool not only us, but also to fool the people at Festiva/Outfield who won't let him come and post with us anymore. Come on Festiva/outfield, let Cliff come back and play. We learned so much from him and his aliases.
> 
> With Cliff's ego you know that being banished from here was a blow because he was so knowledgable about timeshares that he was going to run verbal circles around all the uneducated bumpkins on this site. That didn't work so well and he got caught in more and more lies. So in comes Festivarep to save the day and shut Cliff up. Now we will see what spin Festiva Rep and the PR department at Festiva can put on the damage that has already been done and how well they can muzzle Cliff,cape,mass,viv,prof,stein, etc.


----------



## FestivaRep

I can assure you all that Festiva does NOT have an office anywhere in Texas.  The home office for Festiva Resorts, LLC, is here in Asheville, NC.  We do not operate any offices in Texas.  I have sent a request to Google to remove this location from the map. Thanks for pointing that out to us.



ChrisH said:


> If you google outfield marketing ltd - they have 2 addresses - same phone # - maybe they moved to get cozy
> 
> 135 E HICKORY ST  DENTON, TX  76201 Phone: (940) 566-5127
> and
> Outfield Marketing is located at 212 E Hickory St Denton, TX. Phone: 940-566-5127
> 
> FESTIVA Resorts, LLC  has this same 135 E Hickory address (although Festiva Adventure Club is in NC).
> 
> In the POS for the Commonwealth of MA, NEVS is listed at 135 E Hickory.
> 
> Intercity Escrow is in CA and Houston, TX - maybe they'll move soon :hysterical:


----------



## FestivaRep

I haven't been scared away, and I have not been on vacation. I have noted that I will not be able to be as active on the board as I was several months ago (on other threads) as my job responsibilities have expanded and most of the time I've spent on here is after work hours on my own time.  I expect to be able to catch up on the board once every week or two.  If you have specific questions, you may get a faster answer if you e-mail them directly to me at comments@festivaresorts.com, and you can post my response(s) here if you wish.


----------



## TomBenoit

*Welcome Back FestivaRep - Please answer the question*

You asked for specific questions.........




TomBenoit said:


> OK FestivaRep, perhaps you can provide an answer to the following:
> 
> Who is Jonathan Brown and did he tell us the truth?
> 
> He showed up at our house with a copy of our deed to Southcape back in December 2008.  He informed us that (some is scratched out on paper):
> 
> 1) Festiva had purchased Southcape
> 2) Maintenance fees were going to $750/year
> 3) The ENTIRE septec system needed to be replaced for $5-10mm
> 4) There would be a $500/yr assesment for at least 5 years until
> a) Septic is paid off
> b) There is a $2mm reserve
> 5) All of Soutcape was switching to II
> 6) We could avoid the increased maint/assesments by 'upgrading' to Festiva
> a) Year 1 of II would be included
> b) Year 1 of Festiva maint would be included
> c) We could 'opt out' of Festiva without penalty - anytime


----------



## e.bram

It would be interesting to find out EXACTLY how many weeks 25-34 Festiva controls in Southcape and Sandcastle.


----------



## ChrisH

*NEVS LLC, postal address????*



FestivaRep said:


> I can assure you all that Festiva does NOT have an office anywhere in Texas.  The home office for Festiva Resorts, LLC, is here in Asheville, NC.  We do not operate any offices in Texas.  I have sent a request to Google to remove this location from the map. Thanks for pointing that out to us.



Hi Festiva Rep

Do you have the correct postal mailing address for NEVS in Massachusetts?  I can't seem to find it anywhere and I wish to write them questions about Sandcastle.  The last address I used was 93 Hawes Ave in Hyannis, but it was returned as not picked up after 20 days by the post office.

Thanks
Chris


----------



## Sou13

*Owners' report from the resort*

Over the weekend I received some reports from owners who are vacationing at Southcape this week.  Here's some of what I've learned:

NEVMSLLC is on vacation this week but Rosaleen Cassidy, Resort Manager, is very cooperative and gracious about meeting with owners and providing the reports that were passed out to owners at the meeting, as well as recent minutes that weren't passed out.  She is also willing to show owners the renovated unit that was shown to owners who attended the meeting.  

The wireless Internet is accessible but not to all the units.  If you bring your laptop you may be able to access the Internet from your car or the clubhouse area.

The septic repairs are on hold until the red tape issues get resolved.

The interior renovations are scheduled begin in the fall but may continue on a staggered basis through the off-season months rather than all at once.

Owners who check in over the weekend are being called Monday a.m. and offered a $50 gift card for *attending a meeting to learn about upcoming renovations.

There are no permits being issued for the town beach.  If owners want to use the town beach they have to get a permit for $25 from town hall which isn't open until Monday a.m.

Parking at the state beach is at least $7 per day.

The patio area outside the clubhouse is painted concrete which will need to be repainted every two years.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Festiva in Texas*



FestivaRep said:


> I can assure you all that Festiva does NOT have an office anywhere in Texas.  The home office for Festiva Resorts, LLC, is here in Asheville, NC.  We do not operate any offices in Texas.  I have sent a request to Google to remove this location from the map. Thanks for pointing that out to us.



How did Festiva end up with a Denton Texas address on Google?  Did Google make it up?  If that is the case, then are the Outfield Marketing and NEVS addresses and phone numbers bogus too?  

I should think that Google would be open to a lawsuit for falsely claiming that there is a business located at a certain address and it not be there.  And, amazingly enough, all three of those entities are hooked together in one way or another.  Did Google know about these connections and assume that Festiva was at that address too?  Just how does Google get the information that they have on their website.  I doubt they have people driving up and down streets, roads and highways all over America writing down names and phone numbers.  Maybe they use public records such as phone records, city, county and state records ... that kind of information.

I know you can contact Google and request that the listing be deleted from their site, but taking the listing off of Google doesn't change what actually is located at that address, now does it?  I hope I am not coming across as combative, but we have been lied to by so many people who are all connected to Festiva in one way or another.  It is difficult, for me at least, to accept blindly anything I hear from anyone connected to these businesses.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Other search services*

Son of a gun ... I decided to do some further checking.  It appears that Google isn't the only website with a listing for Festiva in Denton, TX.  I went to AnyWho, an AT&T site, and, lo and behold, there was Festiva again.  Same address as Google and with a phone number.  http://anywho.yellowpages.com/name/Denton-TX/Festiva-Resorts?from=AnyWho

Is this yet another case of smoke, smoke, smoke and no fire?  Or, maybe, someone just wanted to be a meany and called up and had phones installed at that address for Festiva, Outfield and NEVS.  

Just call me a doubting Thomas.  

Maybe you could spend a few hours checking every search engine on the Internet and when you find another Festiva listing in Texas you can contact them and have it removed.  But, like I said, removing the name, address and phone number from the listing doesn't change what is actually at that address.


----------



## tombo

Look on the map at number 7. Yahoo has Festiva with the same address as google in Denton Texas.
http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-18894325R-flying_tomato_pizza_in_apan-i

The yellow pages also has a listing for Festiva in Denton Texas with the same address and phone number that yahoo has.
http://yellowpages.theyellowpages.c...TX&PHPSESSID=89492a3fa90fccd5872c54a4e8952316

OK people don't be fooled by these dishonest organizations like Google, Yahoo, and the Yellow Pages. As we all know they constantly malign honest timeshare organizations by listing fake addresses and phone numbers on the web. All three companies must be in cahoots because they all have Festiva listed with the same address and same phone number which is obviously a conspiracy. Outfield marketing has 2 addresses listed on the same street in the same city in Texas which is without a doubt more of the same assault by Google, Yahoo, and the Yellow Pages against the ethical marketing team of Festiva/Outfield. 

Before we get too mad at Yahoo, Google, and the yellow pages for poor business practices, perhaps we should remember that Outfield used the Hickory Street address in Denton Texas when they registered with the secretary of state in Massachusetts. I also remember Cliff earlier in this forum denying that Outfield had an office in Texas before the document showing that exact Texas address was registered with the state by Outfield. Now Festiva Rep is shocked that Festiva had an office/phone number in Texas just like Cliff was. Perhaps in the future Festiva Rep too will be shown a document proving that Festiva does have an office in Texas because I do not believe for one second that the Yellow Pages, Google, and Yahoo mistakenly listed Festiva with an address in Texas instead of North Carolina and even provided a phone number to go with the address. When you apply for a new phone number you have to give the phone company the name of the individual or business so it can be listed in the phone book and so they know who to bill. The phone company doesn't randomly assign businesses to new phone numbers, the phone company assigns new phone numbers to businesses who open new accounts.

Perhaps the Texas address is like their Nevada address they at one time denied having.
"1. Seller. The seller of the vacation time sharing plan is Festiva Development Group, LLC, a Nevada company, whose principal address is One Vance Gap Rd., Asheville, NC 28805 ("Seller")." Would a Denton Texas Company, whose principle address is One Vance Gap Rd., Asheville, NC seem like prior business strategies?
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=687123&postcount=33

Of course festiva also had an International branch which filed bankruptcy in St Maarten when the owners started suing (FESTIVA RESORTS Int. N.V.).
http://www.timeshareforums.com/foru...nces-timeshares/68903-festiva-st-maarten.html

For a company that only has it's office and business located in North Carolina, it is curious that they also have records linking them to prior offices in St Maarten, Nevada, and now possibly Texas. Shut one, open a new one. Perhaps Texas is already shut and they have moved on to another location.


----------



## bhound54

At 12:02 AM 8/12/2009 -0400, Sou13 wrote:

"There are no permits being issued for the town beach.  If owners want to use the town beach they have to get a permit for $25 from town hall which isn't open until Monday a.m."

You can get a beach sticker for your car via mail.  The application can be found at http://www.ci.mashpee.ma.us/Pages/MashpeeMA_Webdocs/permits.  The town turns these applications around pretty fast.  We had ours within a week after mailing from PA.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Is everyone lying and dishonest????*

These lying, dishonest organizations that falsely list Festiva in Texas must be in cahoots with the lying, dishonest news organization that falsely reported parts of the story about Festiva and Outfield Marketing (just to make it a good story).  

We all know that anyone in disagreement Festiva, Outfield Marketing and NEVS are all lying and horribly dishonest.

Good Lord above, give me a break!


----------



## tombo

Classylassy523 said:


> These lying, dishonest organizations that falsely list Festiva in Texas must be in cahoots with the lying, dishonest news organization that falsely reported parts of the story about Festiva and Outfield Marketing (just to make it a good story).
> 
> We all know that anyone in disagreement Festiva, Outfield Marketing and NEVS are all lying and horribly dishonest.
> 
> Good Lord above, give me a break!



I just called Festiva's Texas phone number and it has been changed. If someone had me listed with a phone number that wasn't mine I would want it disconnected, not forwarded to someone who I am not a business partner with. Festiva just got their old number forwarded to a new number. The new number is 940-566-5127. When you call that number lo and behold it is answered by Outfield Marketing. Why would Festiva want calls directed to them forwarded to Outfield rather than forwarded to Festiva's home office in North Carolina? 

I called the new number and talked to Outfield briefly. I asked what Outfield marketing is and the lady told me that they talk to timeshare owners about the changes occuring at their resorts. 

What a crock. We are supposed to believe that the Festiva phone number wasn't actually Festiva's. This phone number was listed at an address in Texas that is also supposedly not Festiva's. The wrong phone number in Texas didn't get cut off, but was instead swapped to Outfield Marketing's sales force to become Outfield's phone number. Of course Festiva never had a presence in Texas and so Festiva rep corrected google and fowarded their calls to Outfield. We should just trust them when they say that it was never Festiva's intention to have an address or phone number in Texas. So this was apparently simply a mistake which ended up being Outfield's new number. Yeah right.   

As you said, give me a break!!!


----------



## FestivaRep

*Clarification on addresses, phone numbers, etc.*

1.  Festiva Resorts, LLC, is a company that is incorporated in Nevada, but we have no offices there.

2.  The reason we are showing up in phone listings, google, etc. in Denton is because when we first hired Outfield to do our marketing, part of that arrangement included Outfield contacting our owners by phone on our behalf.  Therefore, we had the phone line (used only for calling Festiva owners) set up in Festiva's name.

3.  Regarding the 'bankruptcy' of the long-dormant company in St. Maarten.  This is published on our blog, copied for you here:

About a year ago, information was published in St. Maarten that Festiva Resorts International N.V. was put into bankruptcy.  At the time, we sent a notice to our Atrium owners clarifying the situation to dispel any rumors that may have occurred as a result.  Unfortunately, it seems that there are still rumors and inaccurate information circulating about this subject.  Please continue reading below for the correct information and an update on the situation.

Festiva Resorts International N.V. is a St. Maarten-based company that had been dormant since 2005 with no assets or liabilities.  The company was originally formed for sales activities on St. Maarten several years ago and became redundant when the sales department was restructured.

In 2008 two former sales consultants claimed unpaid commissions.  In St. Maarten, it only takes two such claims that can and did result in a default bankruptcy decision by the local courts, and it is not required to notify the company in question prior to the decision.  One consultant’s claim was confirmed and settled last year; however, the other claim was never confirmed in court or otherwise.  Opposition was filed against the bankruptcy and it was ultimately overturned.

Pelican Atrium N.V., the operator and owner of the Atrium Resort on St. Maarten, was never in bankruptcy nor was it affected by the temporary involuntary bankruptcy of Festiva Resorts International N.V.  Additionally, its bankruptcy had no consequences for Atrium members or for the ongoing court action regarding the assessment and CPI.  Further, the situation with this independent, international company has no impact on the operations of Festiva Resorts as a whole and in particular, it has no affect on our U.S. companies and operations.


----------



## Fig

FestivaRep said:


> 1.  Festiva Resorts, LLC, is a company that is incorporated in Nevada, but we have no offices there.
> 
> 2.  The reason we are showing up in phone listings, google, etc. in Denton is because when we first hired Outfield to do our marketing, part of that arrangement included Outfield contacting our owners by phone on our behalf.  Therefore, we had the phone line (used only for calling Festiva owners) set up in Festiva's name.
> 
> 3.  Regarding the 'bankruptcy' of the long-dormant company in St. Maarten.  This is published on our blog, copied for you here:
> 
> About a year ago, information was published in St. Maarten that Festiva Resorts International N.V. was put into bankruptcy.  At the time, we sent a notice to our Atrium owners clarifying the situation to dispel any rumors that may have occurred as a result.  Unfortunately, it seems that there are still rumors and inaccurate information circulating about this subject.  Please continue reading below for the correct information and an update on the situation.
> 
> Festiva Resorts International N.V. is a St. Maarten-based company that had been dormant since 2005 with no assets or liabilities.  The company was originally formed for sales activities on St. Maarten several years ago and became redundant when the sales department was restructured.
> 
> In 2008 two former sales consultants claimed unpaid commissions.  In St. Maarten, it only takes two such claims that can and did result in a default bankruptcy decision by the local courts, and it is not required to notify the company in question prior to the decision.  One consultant’s claim was confirmed and settled last year; however, the other claim was never confirmed in court or otherwise.  Opposition was filed against the bankruptcy and it was ultimately overturned.
> 
> Pelican Atrium N.V., the operator and owner of the Atrium Resort on St. Maarten, was never in bankruptcy nor was it affected by the temporary involuntary bankruptcy of Festiva Resorts International N.V.  Additionally, its bankruptcy had no consequences for Atrium members or for the ongoing court action regarding the assessment and CPI.  Further, the situation with this independent, international company has no impact on the operations of Festiva Resorts as a whole and in particular, it has no affect on our U.S. companies and operations.



FestivaRep, can you give us the address of Outfield Marketing in Denton, Texas? Thanks.


----------



## Sou13

*Correction to Post #973*

The owners who updated me on what's happening at Southcape have corrected my previous post (#973) which I will edit after posting the correction here:

The telephone call did not identify "Frank in Owner Services" or anyone else other than a woman whose name the owners cannot recall.  She was offering them a $50 gift card for attending a "meeting" that was supposed to be about the "upcoming renovations" but it turned out that this woman was scheduling appointments and there were no openings until the afternoon.

I don't want to be accused of posting "untruths" or "misrepresentations" which is why I cannot report more than the above.  What's important to note is that $50 gift cards are now being offered and that the purpose of the meeting is being misrepresented.


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> 1.  Festiva Resorts, LLC, is a company that is incorporated in Nevada, but we have no offices there.
> 
> 2.  The reason we are showing up in phone listings, google, etc. in Denton is because when we first hired Outfield to do our marketing, part of that arrangement included Outfield contacting our owners by phone on our behalf.  Therefore, we had the phone line (used only for calling Festiva owners) set up in Festiva's name.
> 
> .




1. Why would Festiva incorporate in Nevada but have no offices there? Why not do what most businesses do and incorporate where your home office is?

2. So when unsuspecting owners called the Festiva phone number in Texas, they were never going to actually talk to Festiva. Festiva set up the phone line in Festiva's name, but it was actually set up for Outfield Marketing to sell points to "Festiva owners" as you said. It is kind of misleading to have people call a phone number that is listed as Festiva when in actuality they are calling Outfield Marketing who according to you has nothing to do with Festiva other than as a hired sales force.


You said Outfield was only calling "Festiva Owners". Points are rarely (if ever) sold to "Festiva Owners" by Outfield because the FAC members already have been swapped to points. Festiva doesn't sell ownership, Festiva sells memberships. Festiva members own nothing, they rent points each year for 30 years. They have no vote and they no longer have ownership in the resort they used to own a week at. Outfield calls "owners of weeks" at resorts where Festiva also has points to convert "RESORT OWNERS" to "FAC Members", stripping the OWNERS of the week they owned and a significant amount of cash. To say that Outfield markets to "Festiva Owners" is a stretch if not outright misrepresentation because not one single person on any web site I have visited has mentioned that they were already Festiva members and that they were approached by Outfield to buy more points. 100% of the reviews I have read were where Outfield was trying to get an "owner" to give Festiva their deeded week and about $3000 to become a non owner at their resort by joining FAC. Perhaps in the future you could clarify that Outfield is hired to convert resort owners to FAC members since that is in fact the truth.


----------



## Sou13

*See Sandcastle P'Town post #401*

Michael in his Sandcastle P'Town post #401 reports:

_Quote:
Originally Posted by *FestivaRep* 
M. Weinberg;
Here are answers to the questions you sent me today.

1. Does the relationship between Festiva and Outfield extend beyond simply hiring them for outside sales? 
No.

2. Do Festiva and Outfield have any board members in common? 
No.

3. Is Outfield owned, in whole or in part, by Festiva? 
No.

Yes._​
"Thank you for your responses. You might be interested to know, though, that when Outfield Marketing called me to ask about my experiences when I spoke to one of their representatives at the Sandcastle on July 1, the message they left on my answering machine said, "This is" so-and-so "from the Outfield Marketing division of Festiva Adventure Club." Assuming that your answers to me are true, and I have no reason to doubt them, your firm should be VERY concerned that Outfield is misrepresenting not only your product, but their relationship with you as well. Yet you seem pretty sure that this is the firm that you want selling your memberships. I still have to wonder why that is. I know that if I were hiring an outside firm to represent me publicly, I'd want to make very sure they were representing my honestly. I just thought you'd want to know."


----------



## FestivaRep

TomBenoit said:


> You asked for specific questions.........



While I personally do not know who Jonathan Brown is, my best guess would be that he is a sales representative for Outfield.  Most of the questions below should be directed to the resort developer.

1) Festiva had purchased Southcape
 - Festiva did not purchase Southcape.

Questions 2-5 should be directed to the resort developer.
2) Maintenance fees were going to $750/year
3) The ENTIRE septec system needed to be replaced for $5-10mm4) There would be a $500/yr assesment for at least 5 years until
a) Septic is paid off
b) There is a $2mm reserve
5) All of Soutcape was switching to II

6) We could avoid the increased maint/assesments by 'upgrading' to Festiva
Again, Festiva does not control the maintenance fees or assessments at Southcape, but the Adventure Club does offer stability in fees because members are not subject to individual resorts' increases and assessments.

a) Year 1 of II would be included
Typically, the enrollment and first year's II fees are indeed included with an FAC membership.

b) Year 1 of Festiva maint would be included
This is not typical sales practice, but if it is something that was written into your purchase agreement/contract, then it should be honored.

c) We could 'opt out' of Festiva without penalty - anytime
This unfortunately is not the case.  We are aware that in the past some of our sales reps were giving this information because they misunderstood the product, and they have since been retrained and given the correct information.  Just like any vacation ownership/timeshare purchase, there is a set rescission period after purchasing an FAC membership.


----------



## FestivaRep

Fig said:


> FestivaRep, can you give us the address of Outfield Marketing in Denton, Texas? Thanks.



The shipping address that I have for them is:

347 East Hickory
Denton TX 76201
940-383-9769


----------



## Fig

FestivaRep said:


> The shipping address that I have for them is:
> 
> 347 East Hickory
> Denton TX 76201
> 940-383-9769



Shipping address? You don't know where their offices are located? That is not the legal address filed with the State of Massachusetts. The building they own is at 135...it is worth less than $2,000. I am kind of taken aback that a company as large as Outfield has such a confusing series of addresses....this is the first I've heard of 347 East Hickory. I will look into who owns the building. The only building I have found thus far that they own on the street is called a "sales office" according to property tax records...but is so small it looks like a tool shed.


----------



## FestivaRep

tombo said:


> 1. Why would Festiva incorporate in Nevada but have no offices there? Why not do what most businesses do and incorporate where your home office is?


Businesses can be incorporated in whichever state they choose.



tombo said:


> 2. It is kind of misleading to have people call a phone number that is listed as Festiva when in actuality they are calling Outfield Marketing who according to you has nothing to do with Festiva other than as a hired sales force.


We never intended for anyone to call that number thinking it would be Festiva.  We do not publish that number anywhere on our websites or any collateral that we provide to members.  Even if someone were to search for Festiva Resorts on Google maps, that address was not appearing anywhere near the top of the results, when I looked for it yesterday it was on page 3 of 4.




tombo said:


> You said Outfield was only calling "Festiva Owners". Points are rarely (if ever) sold to "Festiva Owners" by Outfield because the FAC members already have been swapped to points. Festiva doesn't sell ownership, Festiva sells memberships. Festiva members own nothing, they rent points each year for 30 years. They have no vote and they no longer have ownership in the resort they used to own a week at. Outfield calls "owners of weeks" at resorts where Festiva also has points to convert "RESORT OWNERS" to "FAC Members", stripping the OWNERS of the week they owned and a significant amount of cash. To say that Outfield markets to "Festiva Owners" is a stretch if not outright misrepresentation because not one single person on any web site I have visited has mentioned that they were already Festiva members and that they were approached by Outfield to buy more points. 100% of the reviews I have read were where Outfield was trying to get an "owner" to give Festiva their deeded week and about $3000 to become a non owner at their resort by joining FAC. Perhaps in the future you could clarify that Outfield is hired to convert resort owners to FAC members since that is in fact the truth.



Actually, Festiva does have deeded week owners at our core Festiva Resorts (Ellington, Church St. Inn, Cabins at Green Mountain, etc.) that were there long before the FAC was formed, so there is in fact a such thing as a "Festiva Owner."  In fact, I just ran a report that shows we have more than 16,000 active Festiva *owners* among seven resorts (not including the clubs or former peppertree resorts).

To clarify, the phone number in question was created in 2008 when Outfield was hired to call Festiva owners at several of Festiva's resorts to schedule in-home meetings to discuss the Adventure Club. These owners were all sent a letter prior to the calls starting to let them know that they may be receiving a call from an Outfield representative.


----------



## FestivaRep

Fig said:


> Shipping address? You don't know where there offices are located?



I've never been there, so I can't say for sure.  I have no reason to think that their shipping and physical locations are different.  I just said 'shipping' address because that's what I got from someone in our office who has sent mail to them, and I know how detailed you guys are.


----------



## e.bram

FestivaRep sure sounds like doubletalk to me.
Either he's confusing or I'm confused.


----------



## FestivaRep

One last thing I wanted to add.  Our president would like to extend an invitation to anyone who wishes to visit our office here in Asheville to discuss your concerns.  It has happened before, and with positive results all around.  Contact me if you would like to arrange a visit.



FestivaRep said:


> 1.  Festiva Resorts, LLC, is a company that is incorporated in Nevada, but we have no offices there.
> 
> 2.  The reason we are showing up in phone listings, google, etc. in Denton is because when we first hired Outfield to do our marketing, part of that arrangement included Outfield contacting our owners by phone on our behalf.  Therefore, we had the phone line (used only for calling Festiva owners) set up in Festiva's name.
> 
> 3.  Regarding the 'bankruptcy' of the long-dormant company in St. Maarten.  This is published on our blog, copied for you here:
> 
> About a year ago, information was published in St. Maarten that Festiva Resorts International N.V. was put into bankruptcy.  At the time, we sent a notice to our Atrium owners clarifying the situation to dispel any rumors that may have occurred as a result.  Unfortunately, it seems that there are still rumors and inaccurate information circulating about this subject.  Please continue reading below for the correct information and an update on the situation.
> 
> Festiva Resorts International N.V. is a St. Maarten-based company that had been dormant since 2005 with no assets or liabilities.  The company was originally formed for sales activities on St. Maarten several years ago and became redundant when the sales department was restructured.
> 
> In 2008 two former sales consultants claimed unpaid commissions.  In St. Maarten, it only takes two such claims that can and did result in a default bankruptcy decision by the local courts, and it is not required to notify the company in question prior to the decision.  One consultant’s claim was confirmed and settled last year; however, the other claim was never confirmed in court or otherwise.  Opposition was filed against the bankruptcy and it was ultimately overturned.
> 
> Pelican Atrium N.V., the operator and owner of the Atrium Resort on St. Maarten, was never in bankruptcy nor was it affected by the temporary involuntary bankruptcy of Festiva Resorts International N.V.  Additionally, its bankruptcy had no consequences for Atrium members or for the ongoing court action regarding the assessment and CPI.  Further, the situation with this independent, international company has no impact on the operations of Festiva Resorts as a whole and in particular, it has no affect on our U.S. companies and operations.


----------



## FestivaRep

e.bram said:


> FestivaRep sure sounds like doubletalk to me.



I'm not sure what you mean.  If you have specific questions, I'll be happy to look into them and provide any answers I can.


----------



## FestivaRep

Hi Chris;

Everyone has left the office today, but I have sent an e-mail out so I should get an answer tomorrow.



ChrisH said:


> Hi Festiva Rep
> 
> Do you have the correct postal mailing address for NEVS in Massachusetts?  I can't seem to find it anywhere and I wish to write them questions about Sandcastle.  The last address I used was 93 Hawes Ave in Hyannis, but it was returned as not picked up after 20 days by the post office.
> 
> Thanks
> Chris


----------



## e.bram

Just what is the Festiva Management Group? Please define.


----------



## Fig

FestivaRep said:


> The shipping address that I have for them is:
> 
> 347 East Hickory
> Denton TX 76201
> 940-383-9769



You may want to check your info. That building is personal and a "medical billing office" owned by another company...or private person entirely. Here is the tax record. It does not look big enough to hold two companies as it is  worth $5,000

http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...=2010&PropertyID=952707&PropertyType=P&AbsCd=

Verified on Google. http://maps.google.com/maps?rls=com...1&gl=us&view=text&latlng=18154113945442309482

Somebody might be using it to process medical claims as it is registered as "Personal Property" and used for medical billing but its value means it is tiny and probably holds one person at the most.



Here is the tax record for the building Outfield owns.

http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...tive=on&Year=2009&MinVal=0&MaxVal=&Results=10

It is a "sales office" and is worth a whole $1,450. It is tiny...the size of a tool shed. It's hard to imagine anyone working in such conditions.

Again, I am more than a little taken aback that Outfield Marketing seems to have such a confusing location. Cliff swore up and down that 135 E Hickory was not Outfield Marketing's sales office...until I pointed out to him that NEVS filed legal paperwork claiming this as the address for two Outfield key personnel.

DIRECTOR STEVEN 
LAMANTIA 135 (e) HICKORY RD.
DENTON, TX 76201 USA 


DIRECTOR MARK MONROE (e) 135 HICKDRY RD.
DENTON, TX 76201 USA 


Now you give us a new address that appears to be $5,000 "personal property" used for medical billing. Why, why, why is it so hard to pin Outfield Marketing down if they are in fact a legal company totally independent of Festiva?


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Why would Festiva incorporate in Nevada but have no offices there? Why not do what most businesses do and incorporate where your home office is?



Most corporations that operate in multiple states, incorporate in the state that offers the most favorable tax rate and whose state statues afford them the most protection for their corporate structure. 

For that reason, numerous multi-state corporations incorporate in Delaware, even though many of them do not have operations in Delaware.


----------



## Classylassy523

*The Internet Is WONDERFUL!*



Fig said:


> You may want to check your info. That building is personal and a "medical billing office" owned by another company...or private person entirely. Here is the tax record. It does not look big enough to hold two companies as it is  worth $5,000
> 
> http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...=2010&PropertyID=952707&PropertyType=P&AbsCd=
> 
> Verified on Google. http://maps.google.com/maps?rls=com...1&gl=us&view=text&latlng=18154113945442309482
> 
> Somebody might be using it to process medical claims as it is registered as "Personal Property" and used for medical billing but its value means it is tiny and probably holds one person at the most.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the tax record for the building Outfield owns.
> 
> http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...tive=on&Year=2009&MinVal=0&MaxVal=&Results=10
> 
> It is a "sales office" and is worth a whole $1,450. It is tiny...the size of a tool shed. It's hard to imagine anyone working in such conditions.
> 
> Again, I am more than a little taken aback that Outfield Marketing seems to have such a confusing location. Cliff swore up and down that 135 E Hickory was not Outfield Marketing's sales office...until I pointed out to him that NEVS filed legal paperwork claiming this as the address for two Outfield key personnel.
> 
> DIRECTOR STEVEN
> LAMANTIA 135 (e) HICKORY RD.
> DENTON, TX 76201 USA
> 
> 
> DIRECTOR MARK MONROE (e) 135 HICKDRY RD.
> DENTON, TX 76201 USA
> 
> 
> Now you give us a new address that appears to be $5,000 "personal property" used for medical billing. Why, why, why is it so hard to pin Outfield Marketing down if they are in fact a legal company totally independent of Festiva?



Oh, I just love the Internet.  You click a few buttons, mash a few keys and lo and behold .... whallaaaaaa .... you find the most interesting things.


----------



## Classylassy523

*I would appreciate having my questions answered.*

Dear FestivaRep,

The next time you are on the Sandcastle thread I sure would appreciate your taking time to answer my questions. They are contained in Post #368.

Thank you for your time and effort.


----------



## e.bram

We had octoman.
Now we have octocompany


----------



## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> Businesses can be incorporated in whichever state they choose.



Of course they can. They can also incorporate in another country. I was asking why Festiva did not incorporate in the same state as they located their home office like most businesses do? Why did Festiva incorporate in Nevada when their closest timeshare and closest office is in Branson Missouri? Did an executive go to Vegas on a junkett and decide to incorporate on a whim while they were there, or is there some big tax advantage or legal limits on law suits that is available to Nevada corporations that is not afforded to NC corporations? 

Perhaps Festiva incorporated in Nevada because Nevada has legal brothels making it legal for Nevada corporations to screw their customers.





FestivaRep said:


> We never intended for anyone to call that number thinking it would be Festiva.  We do not publish that number anywhere on our websites or any collateral that we provide to members.  Even if someone were to search for Festiva Resorts on Google maps, that address was not appearing anywhere near the top of the results, when I looked for it yesterday it was on page 3 of 4.



Since Outfield is "totally separate from Festiva" and simply hired as a 3rd party sales force, why would Festiva have to get a phone number in Texas at all? Outfield as a 3'rd party sales force would provide their own phone numbers, office, and salesmen. Unless Festiva set Outfield up in a new business, surely Outfield already had phone access at their existing office. Did Outfield marketing exist before Festiva hired them, or did they get hired for their first 3'rd party sales job by Festiva?

Festiva according to you doesn't have an address in Texas, only Outfield does. Why would Festiva need a local (not toll free) Denton Texas phone number for sales? Texas would be long distance for any Festiva customer that called since you don't have any affiliated resorts in texas. Why not simply send out Festiva's office number that already existed and also enclose Outfield's existing phone number(s) to Festiva members and potential members? A third party sales force with an office in Texas would have a reason for a local Denton Texas phone number , not a developer who's home office and almost all of it's staff was located in North Carolina. 




FestivaRep said:


> Actually, Festiva does have deeded week owners at our core Festiva Resorts (Ellington, Church St. Inn, Cabins at Green Mountain, etc.) that were there long before the FAC was formed, so there is in fact a such thing as a "Festiva Owner."  In fact, I just ran a report that shows we have more than 16,000 active Festiva *owners* among seven resorts (not including the clubs or former peppertree resorts)..





Ok so there are in fact actual Festiva owners at 7 of your 27 affiliated resorts. Is Outfield selling fixed weeks at any of your 27 resorts including the seven resorts where some owner's actually own weeks? Outfield has only been referenced online as trying to get owners to swap their weeks for points and cash. Do they have any other sales role for Festiva other than selling the Adventure Club Points? I own at one of the 20 resorts where there are no actual Festiva owners, and I have been contacted by Outfield by phone (and I assume it was Festiva onsite) repeatedly about swapping my weeks to FAC points, but not once have I been contacted offering me weeks for sale at my resort or at any other Festiva affiliated resort. I know an owner at Church Street Inn, and they have had identical experiences with Outfield trying to get them to swap to points even though Church Street Inn is one of your core resorts where you tout owners. They told me that they have not been approached once about buying weeks at their resort since Festiva took over.

 By the way like the owners at The Atrium, Southscape, Sandcastle, and numerous other resorts where Festiva has taken over, the Church Street Inn owners are also are very upset about the huge increases in MF's since Festiva took over Church Street Inn and upset by the assessments for renovations, both of which seem to occur at every resort Festiva takes control of. Church Street Inn might have owners, but according to my friend they don't have enough owners to stop Festiva from renovating, assessing, or ratcheting up MF's annually.


----------



## tombo

duplicate post deleted


----------



## mweinberg

tombo said:


> Ok so there are in fact actual Festiva owners at 7 of your 27 affiliated resorts. Is Outfield selling fixed weeks at any of your 27 resorts including the seven resorts where some owner's actually own weeks? Outfield has only been referenced online as trying to get owners to swap their weeks for points and cash. Do they have any other sales role for Festiva other than selling the Adventure Club Points? I own at one of the 20 resorts where there are no actual Festiva owners, and I have been contacted by Outfield by phone (and I assume it was Festiva onsite) repeatedly about swapping my weeks to FAC points, but not once have I been contacted offering me weeks for sale at my resort or at any other Festiva affiliated resort. I know an owner at Church Street Inn, and they have had identical experiences with Outfield trying to get them to swap to points even though Church Street Inn is one of your core resorts where you tout owners. They told me that they have not been approached once about buying weeks at their resort since Festiva took over.
> 
> By the way like the owners at The Atrium, Southscape, Sandcastle, and numerous other resorts where Festiva has taken over, the Church Street Inn owners are also are very upset about the huge increases in MF's since Festiva took over Church Street Inn and upset by the assessments for renovations, both of which seem to occur at every resort Festiva takes control of. Church Street Inn might have owners, but according to my friend they don't have enough owners to stop Festiva from renovating, assessing, or ratcheting up MF's annually.



My experience at the Sandcastle is the same.  Outfield is pushing hard for conversion to FAC points, but they say nothing about the sale of weeks.  Cliff Hagberg said in an earlier post here that they WILL be marketing weeks, but that they can't yet because of something in the mortgage, whatever that means.

I can't imagine Outfield trying to sell weeks at the Sandcastle when they told me that "everyone is going to points," "weeks are becoming increasingly difficult to trade," and, my personal favorite, that the best thing that could happen to me as an owner would be for "a hurricane to flatten the place."

Who knows?  Maybe they have an entirely _different _set of lies that they use to sell deeded weeks with. 

Michael


----------



## mweinberg

FestivaRep--

I'm still interested in hearing why an employee of Outfield Marketing identified themselves as "a division of Festiva Adventure Club" when she left a message on my answering machine.

Michael


----------



## Classylassy523

*Deed not worth the paper it is written on*



mweinberg said:


> My experience at the Sandcastle is the same.  Outfield is pushing hard for conversion to FAC points, but they say nothing about the sale of weeks.  Cliff Hagberg said in an earlier post here that they WILL be marketing weeks, but that they can't yet because of something in the mortgage, whatever that means.
> 
> I can't imagine Outfield trying to sell weeks at the Sandcastle when they told me that "everyone is going to points," "weeks are becoming increasingly difficult to trade," and, my personal favorite, that the best thing that could happen to me as an owner would be for "a hurricane to flatten the place."
> 
> Who knows?  Maybe they have an entirely _different _set of lies that they use to sell deeded weeks with.
> 
> Michael



I was told that Sandcastle's weeks can't even be given away on E-Bay and that the deeds weren't worth the paper they were written on.  

Talk about walking away from that meeting with a warm, fuzzy feeling.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Of course they can. They can also incorporate in another country. I was asking why Festiva did not incorporate in the same state as they located their home office like most businesses do? Why did Festiva incorporate in Nevada when their closest timeshare and closest office is in Branson Missouri? Did an executive go to Vegas on a junkett and decide to incorporate on a whim while they were there, or is there some big tax advantage or legal limits on law suits that is available to Nevada corporations that is not afforded to NC corporations?
> 
> Perhaps Festiva incorporated in Nevada because Nevada has legal brothels making it legal for Nevada corporations to screw their customers.



You know, I think the owners at Sandcastle and Southcape have a lot to be concerned about regarding the goals of NEVS. 

Based on the first hand reports made here, I think Outfield uses scare tactics and deceptive practices to sell the Festiva product.

I think Festiva has made some questionable decisions in terms of aligning their company with NEVS and Outfield. I am alarmed by the lack of control the Festiva seems to be exerting in curbing Outfield's use of these practices. But that is a decision they will live with.

To use an analogy you enjoy, I look at Outfield like boosters at a major football college (Festiva U). Sometimes they get a little out of hand, and engage in questionable practices in recruiting. Sure the college benefits in the short-term, but suffers in the long run. But do you completely blame the college when the NCAA fines the school for a "lack of institutional control". 

But I find all this other rhetoric and speculation unseemly. All the "Why are they incorporated in NV, why did they get a Texas phone number, why does google list them as having an address in TX, etc?"

I fail to understand how that innuendo helps the Sandcastle or Southcape owners in their struggle today.


----------



## ChrisH

*They don't want any "WEEKS OWNERS LEFT"*

NEVS bought all the winter weeks, all units weeks 1-10 and weeks 45-52., plus some foreclosure inventory.  They are now waiting to convert enough people to FAC and get those additional deeds under the Festiva name so that the owners association will ALWAYS be outnumbered by their votes, no matter what.  Once they get more than enough deeds to cover their a**es, then they will start selling weeks - but only as FAC I bet, no deeded weeks.

I think that's why the special assessment bills haven't gone out.  They don't want us to be able to 'out vote' them and eliminate non-emergency repairs.

This opinion was brought to you by ChrisH, and it is published here as solely the opinion of ChrisH, and is not intended to indicate that it is the opinion of anyone else.


----------



## e.bram

I think the concept of selling weeks to points conversions is dead in the water because of the economy. More owners , especially of nonprime and dog weeks are more in a bailing than buying mode. Wyndham closed it's Newport conversion offices last year. If Wyndham can't do, how can Festiva? They probably started a few years ago when the economy and financing was hot.


----------



## Fig

ecwinch said:


> You know, I think the owners at Sandcastle and Southcape have a lot to be concerned about regarding the goals of NEVS.
> 
> Based on the first hand reports made here, I think Outfield uses scare tactics and deceptive practices to sell the Festiva product.
> 
> 
> To use an analogy you enjoy, I look at Outfield like boosters at a major football college (Festiva U). Sometimes they get a little out of hand, and engage in questionable practices in recruiting. Sure the college benefits in the short-term, but suffers in the long run. But do you completely blame the college when the NCAA fines the school for a "lack of institutional control".
> 
> But I find all this other rhetoric and speculation unseemly. All the "Why are they incorporated in NV, why did they get a Texas phone number, why does google list them as having an address in TX, etc?"
> 
> I fail to understand how that innuendo helps the Sandcastle or Southcape owners in their struggle today.



Eric, if it were only "sometimes"....it's hard to find anything on the net where people were told anything close to the truth by Outfield Marketing. Not only here, but anywhere. When people go into detail about the presentation, it's the same thing over and over...we weren't given any paperwork, claims were made that are simply untrue...to the extent that you have a major resort calling Outfield Marketing on their false claims right on their opening page. 

And exactly WHO is Outfield Marketing? Their CEO appears to live in MD...they claim an office in TX worth $1,450 that it strains credibility is used for any business at all. How do you run a business like that? FestivaRep has all sorts of details about when they were hired, who is doing training in MA...when they were hired in MO relative to the AG lawsuit....yet nobody, not Cliff, not FestivaRep (who seems to have a good relationship with the Festiva CEO as she has extended an invite from him) can supply us with a valid address for this company out of Denton, TX that everyone is fond of hiring...and claiming as Denton, TX business. But they seem to be a mystery. At the same time she is claiming they are independent of Festiva. Don't you find this a bit strange? 

Perhaps such a loosely based business might account for some of the questionable practices....if you don't have a real company with real employees based in a real building...how is all this mysterious training getting done and by whom? Is the turnover so great that employees can do and say anything to get points? Festiva has stopped using Outfield Marketing at many of their locations...I don't think FestivaRep ever answered Tombo as to why they are affiliating themselves with them in MA.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> You know, I think the owners at Sandcastle and Southcape have a lot to be concerned about regarding the goals of NEVS. .



We all agree that NEVS is in this for themselves and Festiva to the detriment of owners at Southscape and Sandcastle.



ecwinch said:


> Based on the first hand reports made here, I think Outfield uses scare tactics and deceptive practices to sell the Festiva product..



By continuing to employ Outfield, Festiva has condoned their sales tactics. After many complaints they continue to employ them. It would be simple for Festiva to send secret shoppers to Outfield presentations if they really wanted to know what was being said. By claiming that they don't allow unethical sales tactics and by having a paper trail telling Outfield to use ethical sales techniques they can blame all law suits on Outfield acting against their directions. It might not stand up in court with all of the complaints out there, but it gives them a better chance of not getting sued than hiring their own sales force to sell points using Outfield's tactics.



ecwinch said:


> I think Festiva has made some questionable decisions in terms of aligning their company with NEVS and Outfield. I am alarmed by the lack of control the Festiva seems to be exerting in curbing Outfield's use of these practices. But that is a decision they will live with..



That is a choice Festiva made and continues to make which enriches both Festiva and Outfield while allowing owners to be sold Festiva points under threats of future assessments, pressure, and after being told numerous lies and half truths. If it actually bothered them they would fire Outfield.




ecwinch said:


> To use an analogy you enjoy, I look at Outfield like boosters at a major football college (Festiva U). Sometimes they get a little out of hand, and engage in questionable practices in recruiting. Sure the college benefits in the short-term, but suffers in the long run. But do you completely blame the college when the NCAA fines the school for a "lack of institutional control". .



Good analogy, however let me point out  the differences in Festiva's relationship to Outfield and the boosters relationship to the university. 

My university was put on probation and lost bowl game appearances, athletic scholarships (causing many losses), and television revenues costing the university millions for the alleged actions of a booster(Festiva should be sued and held accountable for the actions of Outfield IMO). The booster was not hired by the university (Festiva hired and continues to employ Outfield). The booster didn't act as an agent for the university and was not authorized to represent the university (Outfiled is legally authorized to represent and sell Festiva Points). Our college got access to a great recruit due to the boosters alleged actions which violated the NCAA rules (Festiva sells many FAC memberships thanks to Outfiled's alleged unethical, dishonest and possibly illegal sales tecniques). My University suffered for about 8 years due to the actions of a rogue booster who had no authority to represent the university (Festiva has not suffered at all for the actions of a sales force that festiva hired which is still operating in an unethical mannr from the first hand reports listed here and elsewhere). After the University was severelly penalized for actions taken by a booster which was not authorized in any way by the University, the booster was banned from attending any future game, he is not allowed to contact any students or coaches, and he is not allowed to contribute any money to the athletic department ever again (Festiva hasn't fired Outfield or penalized them in any way for their misconduct).

The university was blamed totally by the NCAA for action taken by a non employee, non authorized agent, who took actions into his own hands against the university's rules. He was banned from the university's athletic dept( by the university) totally and forever.The university deserved very little blame since they did not know it was occurring, and the booster was banned as sson as the allegations came to light.

Festiva hires Outfield, authorizes them to sell festiva points, has many complaints including from one of the resorts it is affiliated with who sent a newsletter out to all owners warning them of outfiled's false sales claims leading Festiva to ban Outfield from selling on property. Festiva was sued and settled (lost) in Missouri for similar sales tactics used by a prior 3rd party sales force. Yet after having an AG sue them for deceptive sales practices, and after having one of their resorts send a newsletter out warning all owners about Outfield's deceptive sales claims, and after all of the complaints here and other places Festiva continues to allow Otfiled to market their points in owner's homes. Festive deserves to take 100% of the blame for Outfield's actions since they hired and continue to employ them after receiving plenty of reasons to terminate Outfield permanently.



ecwinch said:


> But I find all this other rhetoric and speculation unseemly. All the "Why are they incorporated in NV, why did they get a Texas phone number, why does google list them as having an address in TX, etc?"
> 
> I fail to understand how that innuendo helps the Sandcastle or Southcape owners in their struggle today.



Pointing out and questioning the many different corporations, locations, law suits, different 3rd party sales forces, etc. simply iluminate the dark corners that Festiva and Outfield hide in. Festiva has an address in Texas and a phone, but of course they say it is not theirs, it is Outfields.Outfield has 2 addresses and phones in Denton Texas, but until it was proven to be their address by FIG, it was vehemently denied to be their address by Cliff.  Outfield allegedly threatens and lies to potential buyers, but that is not festiva's problem, that is Outfields problem. Festiva keeps on employing Outfield and chooses to say that they have retrained a couple of sales people rather than terminating their sales agreement and firing Outfield. They incorporate Festiva INTL LLC and file bankruptcy on that corporation when a suit is filed in St Maarten. Festiva is currently being sued by the owners at The Atrium. Festiva was sued and settled in Missouri. Owners at Sandcastle and Southscape are trying to mount a law suit and are filing complaints to the AG. Festiva has their home office in North Carolina, but they incorporate again for the second or third time in Nevada. Why Nevada? Why not NC? That is a valid question.  This company takes over resorts by purchasing HOA inventory or unsold developer's inventory and then they assess to renovate, they drastically raise MF's, and they claim they need to assess even more to build up reserves. They scare owners by claiming that RCI will drop the resort if they don't do renovations. They populate the HOA boards with their own employees taking total control of resorts to the detriment of the owners. Knowing all you can about your opponent is very important to understanding what the owners are up against IMO.

There is typically no better predictor of future actions than one's past actions. The more we learn about Festiva an Outfield, the better prepared owners will be to fight to retain control of their resorts.


----------



## e.bram

Instead of ranting and raving("chopping water" my dad would say) on how bad the whole crew(Festiva, Outfiels & Cliff)is, the paying owners have to make ALL the unit owners pay their MF, no exception.or turn those units over to the HOA. Then the battle is done and the TSes are saved. This amy take some court action, but must be done or the TS as it now is finished, caput.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Good analogy, however let me point out  the differences in Festiva's relationship to Outfield and the boosters relationship to the university.
> 
> My university was put on probation and lost bowl game appearances, athletic scholarships (causing many losses), and television revenues costing the university millions for the alleged actions of a booster(Festiva should be sued and held accountable for the actions of Outfield IMO). The booster was not hired by the university (Festiva hired and continues to employ Outfield). The booster didn't act as an agent for the university and was not authorized to represent the university (Outfiled is legally authorized to represent and sell Festiva Points).



So I guess it is a blessing it only took them eight years to discover the problem. Imagine how  much they would have been harmed if it had taken 50 years for the problem to come to light.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> So I guess it is a blessing it only took them eight years to discover the problem. Imagine how  much they would have been harmed if it had taken 50 years for the problem to come to light.



Please re-read.The damages to the athletic program lasted for a total of 8 years, it did not take 8 years for the violation to come to light. The violation was caught within a year and punished within 2 years. We also faced a repeat offender status for 5 years from the date of the ruling which could possibly bring the death penalty. The death penalty would mean that the university would not be allowed to play any games for 5 years if the NCAA sanctioned the university for any other major offenses during the 5 year period. That might have meant the end of the football program for a decade or more by the time you figure in recruting a whole new team with 4 years worth of scholarships (frshmen,sophmores, etc) after the university was allowed to start playing football again. That is a serious deterrent to future violations.

What deterrent does Festiva/Outfield face to stop them from (allegedly) pressuring, misrepresenting, and lying to customers to make sales? Festiva/Outfield sales problems problems have been noted for many years now (and even acknowledged by Festiva Rep), but their only penalty during the last 9 years was a slap on the wrist by the Missouri AG. Did they lose sales and income for many years? No! Did they have to reduce their sales force and lose sales for numerous years? No! Did they have to stop using 3'rd party sales forces? No! Were they put under constant intense scrutiny for many years with the threat of loss of their total business? No! Did they change the way they operate? Not one bit! Will they change the way they operate? Only if they get sued and lose major money IMO. 

The way it is going Festive might be ale to operate like this for 50 years without any major penalties unless some owners or an AG stops them. Who knows how many owners will be harmed while Festiva/Outfield continue to operate as they please?


----------



## e.bram

All that needs to happen is ALL owners pay MF. Who cares who pays as long as they pay, Festiva, Outfield, or NEVS. No more problems!


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## tombo

e.bram said:


> All that needs to happen is ALL owners pay MF. Who cares who pays as long as they pay, Festiva, Outfield, or NEVS. No more problems!



That would work just fine if Festiva/NEVS would agree to pay their fair share on the weeks they own. However, unless legally forced to pay MF's and assessments on developer owned units, Festiva and NEVS will not pay. That leaves the burden of maintaining and upgrading the resort totally on the backs of the owners who can't stop NEVS/Festiva from raising MF's, assessing, renovating, etc., because NEVS/Festiva controls the boards and the votes.


----------



## Sou13

*Plan ahead!*



bhound54 said:


> At 12:02 AM 8/12/2009 -0400, Sou13 wrote:
> 
> "There are no permits being issued for the town beach.  If owners want to use the town beach they have to get a permit for $25 from town hall which isn't open until Monday a.m."
> 
> You can get a beach sticker for your car via mail.  The application can be found at http://www.ci.mashpee.ma.us/Pages/MashpeeMA_Webdocs/permits.  The town turns these applications around pretty fast.  We had ours within a week after mailing from PA.



Thanks for the info and aren't you glad you found this discussion?


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## Classylassy523

*Paying MFs are not going to make things right*



e.bram said:


> All that needs to happen is ALL owners pay MF. Who cares who pays as long as they pay, Festiva, Outfield, or NEVS. No more problems!



How easy it would be if paying MFs would solve all the other problems that came along when NEVS, Outfield Marketing and Festiva made the scene.  Paying MFs is the least of the problems.  Lying, threatening, stonewalling, coercing are going on every day, and paying MFs won't change that.  I doubt there is anyone on this thread who has not paid their MF.  I know there are some owners who haven't paid, might just not pay, but that isn't making things worse.  It is NEVS, Outfield Marketing and Festiva who are making things so bad.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> That would work just fine if Festiva/NEVS would agree to pay their fair share on the weeks they own. However, unless legally forced to pay MF's and assessments on developer owned units, Festiva and NEVS will not pay. That leaves the burden of maintaining and upgrading the resort totally on the backs of the owners who can't stop NEVS/Festiva from raising MF's, assessing, renovating, etc., because NEVS/Festiva controls the boards and the votes.



Do you know that Festiva is not paying m/f on weeks that are committed to FAC?

I am starting to have a problem with the sins of one party being assigned to other. Tombo, I understand that you have a Festiva axe to grind. But NEVS and Festiva are not one company as your post above makes it seem.

You make and raise a number of good points, but why do we need to behave like NEVS/Outfield does and use speculation to make the point. It only taints the allegations, many of which are well founded without needless speculation.


----------



## Sou13

*Stonewalling and stalling*

NEVMSLLC has used any and every excuse to keep Southcape owners from examining the books as provided in M.G.L. 183B.  I was refused because I am "delinquent" in my "agreement" to a payment plan for the $400 Special Assessment.  An owner who wanted to bring me to the resort to examine the books was told that she could come but that I couldn't, but when she decided to go during her fixed summer week she was told that Mr. Hagberg would be on vacation and that she can come in October when she'll be in Florida.

When I discovered that only 1/2 of the "improvements" for which we were billed had been done, and that the remaining 1/2 was questionable, I withheld the remaining 1/2 of the $400. Meanwhile we're learning that improvements are being made at Sandcastle and suspect that they are being financed by the Southcape owners who have paid the $400 Special Assessment.

NEVS has now gone so far as to file "certificates of correction" claiming that an attorney who has never occupied a seat on the board of directors was the Clerk for the three years that Rosaleen Cassidy, Resort Manager, filed the annual reports!  

In 1985 the Board of Directors was expanded to 5 members:  2 developers, 2 owners, and the resort manager, elected to serve 2-year terms.  None of the board members currently on file were elected, all were appointed by NEVS.

What does it take to get the AG involved in investigating these matters?


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> Do you know that Festiva is not paying m/f on weeks that are committed to FAC?
> 
> I am starting to have a problem with the sins of one party being assigned to other. Tombo, I understand that you have a Festiva axe to grind. But NEVS and Festiva are not one company as your post above makes it seem.



Do you know for sure that Festiva is paying MF's on unsold inventory? No! Do you know if they are paying MF's and assessments at some resorts and not at others? No!  I would bet money that they don't pay MF's and assessments on inventory they acquire when they take over a resort and inventory that HOA's own at resorts where they control the HOA>. 

Festiva and NEVS are in business together at Southscape and Sandcastle. NEVS is not paying MF's for their inventory. Outfield executives were made trustees. You are known by the company you keep, the people you hire to represent you, and the business partners you do business with. Festiva seems to like NEVS and Outfield and keeps associating with them, hiring them, and doing business with them. Jhat is at a minimum guilt by association if not outright joint guilt IMO. I lump them all together because festiva refuses to fire outfield or distance themselves from NEVS. They could change the perception (if not actual reality) by disassociating themselves from Outfield/NEVS, but they choose to not do so.

It is my ax and I will grind it if I want, when I want, and how I want. If you tire of my ax grinding feel free to ignore my posts. I don't admonish you when you defend Festiva although I find very little about festiva that is possible to defend. Since you don't own a week at any resort that festiva is affiliated with or that outfield markets in, you can't understand what it is like when they start taking over a resort you like and there is little that you can do about it. Please feel free to buy a week at a festiva resort and after a year see if you still want to give them the benefit of a doubt!


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> Do you know for sure that Festiva is paying MF's on unsold inventory? No!
> 
> *Please feel free to buy a week at a festiva resort and after a year see if you still want to give them the benefit of a doubt!*



This sounds too much like Cliff's defense of his policy of ignoring non-owners. 

And I am not defending Festiva. I am in opposition of the truth being bent by either side of the discussion. If you feel the need to use innuendo to make your point, then I will post the the facts that have been reported. FestivaRep has specifically denied the allegations you have raised regarding the business relationship. Now you want to speculate that they are not paying m/f's. To continue to speculate without any proof is not reasonable. By extension you can speculate that the housekeeping staff is slave labor imported from China. No, I cannot disprove that allegation either. 

In my mind, engaging in such behavior just diminishes the valid points you have made.

So we can bicker about the fine points if you want. But to provide some balance to the discussion, I will continue to point out inaccuracies in your posts. As you pointed out, you are free to ignore my posts in that regard.


----------



## ChrisH

*I find it offensive....*



Sou13 said:


> NEVMSLLC has used any and every excuse to keep Southcape owners from examining the books as provided in M.G.L. 183B.  I was refused because I am "delinquent" in my "agreement" to a payment plan for the $400 Special Assessment.  An owner who wanted to bring me to the resort to examine the books was told that she could come but that I couldn't, but when she decided to go during her fixed summer week she was told that Mr. Hagberg would be on vacation and that she can come in October when she'll be in Florida.
> 
> When I discovered that only 1/2 of the "improvements" for which we were billed had been done, and that the remaining 1/2 was questionable, I withheld the remaining 1/2 of the $400. Meanwhile we're learning that improvements are being made at Sandcastle and suspect that they are being financed by the Southcape owners who have paid the $400 Special Assessment.



As a Sandcastle owner, who has been to Sandcastle both in May and July, I find it offensive that you have on more than one occasion indicated that Southcape mf's are being spent at Sandcastle.  

In May they were painting the outside pool at Sandcastle.  By July they had painted the front of a building and installed new signs.  Planted some vegetation (done annually anyway.) and not much else.  Oh, yes - they were doing some upgrades to the office that Outfield Marketing was using - isn't that special, and since I left, I understand that the wireless internet is complete.

How do we know that Sandcastle mf's aren't being spent at Southcape?  We don't.  Anymore than you know where Southcape mf's are being spent.  Or the extra $1.3 million gleened from the mortgage.  Where'd that go?
Maybe that's how people get to go to England and other places.  We may never know.
But it doesn't appear to be lavishing P'Town.

Give it a rest.

The opinion expressed in this reply are solely the opinion of ChrisH and should not be construed to have any other authorship.


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## e.bram

Classylady523:
"It is NEVS, Outfield Marketing and Festiva who are making things so bad."

These are the guys that I suspect are not payinf MFs. Not TS owners. If everybody and I mean EVERYBODY paid MFs there would be no problems.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> When I discovered that only 1/2 of the "improvements" for which we were billed had been done, and that the remaining 1/2 was questionable, I withheld the remaining 1/2 of the $400.
> 
> What does it take to get the AG involved in investigating these matters?



You only are impairing your rights by withholding payment of the special assessment. It is the proverbial "cut off your nose to spite your face".


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you for the Sandcastle update!*

Thank you, ChrisH, for the update on the renovations taking place at Sandcastle.  If I hadn't read anything about renovations on a Sandcastle discussion I'd have no reason to suspect that Southcape funds could be going to pay for renovations at our "sister" resort.

Eric, if you are overcharged for something do you just keep quiet about it?  We at Southcape have the Compiled Financial Reports for 2008 and 2007 as well as the breakdown of where the Special Assessment is supposed to be going and only 1/2 of it has been spent.  Here's the breakdown:

Special Assessment Budget

Condo I (Units 1-24)
Siding, roofing. painting and replacement
of Toned trim. $275,000

Condo I (Units 1-24)
Interior renovations: replacement of
furniture. carpeting & painting. $450,000

Alarm system repairs
$12,000

Phone system replacement
$12,000

Computer system for reservations
$25,000

Condo II
Painting and replacement of rotted trim as
necessary. $50,000

New Web site & \Wireless Internet
Access for the entire resort. $18,000

A recent inspection of the septic system
has indicated that the entire system
needs repair. 6 of the septics need
relatively minor repairs. $15,000

Repair of 6 septics:
3 of the septics failed.
We are currently working with the state
department to find the best approach to
solving this problem. $75,000 (working estimate)

Operating loss for 2008 $157,000

Total: $1,089,000

Here's what's been done:

Condo I (Units 1-24)
Siding, roofing. painting and replacement
of Toned trim. $275,000

The other items are yet to be completed.  I don't know about this one:

Condo II
Painting and replacement of rotted trim as
necessary. $50,000

An owner who paid the $400 by the March 1 due date wants to know why it had to be paid by March 1.  As the MFs were coming in, the entire MF expenses were not due, and in the past these repairs and renovations were done out of the reserve that was built into the maintenance fee.  Yes, there was a reserve, contrary to what NEVS claims.  And to renovate all the units at once means that they will all have to be renovated at once in the future.  They were renovated on a piecemeal basis for a reason, and this schedule of staggered renovations should continue in order to keep the maintenance fees from rising more than 5% per year.

Eric, I don't know why you're convinced that just because "FestivaRep has specifically denied the allegations" tombo has "raised regarding the business relationship" means that you can believe FestivaRep any more than you can believe NEVMSLLC when he claims that the 550 weeks owned by NEVS are being sold by Outfield Marketing, that owners can see the books by appointment, and that "Mr. Hagberg has no ownership interest in either Outfield or Festiva."  Don't take their words at face value.

At least tombo knows firsthand what happens when Festiva takes over a resort.  If it weren't for tombo's experience I'd be doing better things with my time than trying to put the brakes on Festiva's takeover of Southcape.


----------



## Classylassy523

*It is not JUST money*



e.bram said:


> Classylady523:
> "It is NEVS, Outfield Marketing and Festiva who are making things so bad."
> 
> These are the guys that I suspect are not payinf MFs. Not TS owners. If everybody and I mean EVERYBODY paid MFs there would be no problems.



The problems that are occuring at Southcape and Sandcastle are not just monetary.  The problems are dishonesty, coercion, threats, arrogance, ignorance, disrespect and blatant law breaking by NEVS, Outfield Marketing and Festiva Resorts.  I personally find it insulting that these people can treat honest, law abiding owners who are only guilty of wanting the use of their deeded property without being treated like second class citizens, and being made to feel that they are there only to provide the funds to make these resorts more of a source of money for these three entities.  This group of people feel they can do anything they want and owners will just roll over and go along with it.  The fact that so many owners have complained both verbally and in writing to NEVS and Festiva about Outfield Marketing and the hooligans are still there, doing business as usual, speaks loudly to me.  NEVS and Festiva do not give a RAT'S A** about the owners.  They have an agenda and they will continue to work toward that goal unless they are stopped.  So, it is up to the owner's to do just that ... *STOP* NEVS, OUTFIELD MARKETING AND FESTIVA RESORTS.  If it takes hiring a lawyer or lawyers, filing complaints with state and federal governments, speaking out and getting our stories in front of others and banding together with other owners like us around this country, then we need to do it and get it done.  The sooner the better, because those people will continue to charge us increasing MFs and SAs to get those resorts where they want them, and it will all be done on our dollars, not theirs.

In my opinion, that is what is wrong at Southcape and Sandcastle Resorts.


----------



## Sou13

*I used to love Southcape Resort*

but now that we have NEVS asserting "developers' rights" which should have ceased to exist 20 years ago, I've fallen out of love with timeshares.  I still love the resort as it used to be but not as it now is.


----------



## Classylassy523

Sou13 said:


> but now that we have NEVS asserting "developers' rights" which should have ceased to exist 20 years ago, I've fallen out of love with timeshares.  I still love the resort as it used to be but not as it now is.



Do you think that might be part of their agenda?  Make us so miserable that we will just throw in the towel, give up and just turn our property over to them?


----------



## Sou13

Clever of them, don't you think?  NEVMSLLC has been at this business for a long time and could that be why Barth and Woods didn't accept his offers until now?


----------



## Classylassy523

*They have to be stopped*

The owners have no choice but to stop them (NEVS, Festiva, Outfield Marketing).  We have to do whatever it takes to protect what we own.  It if means hiring a lawyer or lawyers, complaining to state and federal governments, getting our story out to the public, and/or starting a class action suit that involves any and all owners around the country who have fallen prey to Festiva, NEVS and Outfield Marketing.  We have all worked hard to purchase and maintain what is ours, and allowing these creeps to take it away from us or making us miserable so that we don't enjoy ourselves at our resort is unconscionable.


----------



## Carolinian

Classylassy523 said:


> The owners have no choice but to stop them (NEVS, Festiva, Outfield Marketing).  We have to do whatever it takes to protect what we own.  It if means hiring a lawyer or lawyers, complaining to state and federal governments, getting our story out to the public, and/or starting a class action suit that involves any and all owners around the country who have fallen prey to Festiva, NEVS and Outfield Marketing.  We have all worked hard to purchase and maintain what is ours, and allowing these creeps to take it away from us or making us miserable so that we don't enjoy ourselves at our resort is unconscionable.



You are aboutly correct.  At four resorts where I own or have owned, the homeowners had to band together and fight to kick developers who had overstayed their welcomes out the door.  It all of them, the homeowners won.  In most of them, the new elected HOA also ended up owning the developers remaining inventory at part of the settlement at no new cost to the HOA.  Developer dictatorship is not going to go away unless the owners get together and make it go away.


----------



## bhound54

*Am I glad I found this discussion -- no!*



Sou13 said:


> Thanks for the info and aren't you glad you found this discussion?



No.  I had sent for and received my beach permit (as I did last year) before the discussion so my post only benefited others, not me.  

When I signed up Southcape TUGBBS threads, I had no idea about the nasty tone and non-substantiated conjectures that I would receive on a daily basis.  It is difficult to ignore the obnoxious posts and I am considering cancelling my subscription to this discussion board.  

BTW, my wife and I are in possession a printed copy of the Southcape Resort & Club Condominium I Master Deed and Supplement, which we received back in 1982 when we purchase our first week.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Eric, if you are overcharged for something do you just keep quiet about it?
> 
> Eric, I don't know why you're convinced that just because "FestivaRep has specifically denied the allegations" tombo has "raised regarding the business relationship" means that you can believe FestivaRep any more than you can believe NEVMSLLC when he claims that the 550 weeks owned by NEVS are being sold by Outfield Marketing, that owners can see the books by appointment, and that "Mr. Hagberg has no ownership interest in either Outfield or Festiva."  Don't take their words at face value.



No, you do not keep quiet about it. But you do not fail to pay the bill and expect that you can retain your rights. If you want to make that symbolic protest, that is fine. But recognize that it hurts you more than it hurts NEVS. Next Cliff can foreclose on you, and you will have no rights at Southcape.

If you want to engage in innuendo to further the cause that is fine. But now it is extending into areas that are extreme; by speculating that Festiva is not paying m/f on weeks that have been converted to FAC. Like I said in my example, once you go down that path were do you stop?  It just makes the group here look exactly as Cliff characterized them. That does you no good.


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> You are aboutly correct.  At four resorts where I own or have owned, the homeowners had to band together and fight to kick developers who had overstayed their welcomes out the door.  It all of them, the homeowners won.  In most of them, the new elected HOA also ended up owning the developers remaining inventory at part of the settlement at no new cost to the HOA.  Developer dictatorship is not going to go away unless the owners get together and make it go away.



Do you not mean the burden of the developer inventory? Was there significant value to the inventory that the developer walked away from?

I do agree with core premise, that change will only come when the majority of govening body is concerned owners that protect the interests of the owners. I am not of the opinion that means throwing the developer out. I have poorly run resorts that have no developer involvement. Kicking out the developer is not a panacea for everything.


----------



## ecwinch

bhound54 said:


> When I signed up Southcape TUGBBS threads, I had no idea about the nasty tone and non-substantiated conjectures that I would receive on a daily basis.  It is difficult to ignore the obnoxious posts and I am considering cancelling my subscription to this discussion board.



I think it is important to recognize that every cause brings some extreme opinions, and by nature they tend to post more than others. I think it is important for the group as a whole to self-moderate the discussion. If you let the extreme opinion cause you to drop out, then the situation gets worse and to the detriment of all. I hope you will stick around.


----------



## Sou13

*Then can you help us out?*



bhound54 said:


> No.  I had sent for and received my beach permit (as I did last year) before the discussion so my post only benefited others, not me.
> 
> When I signed up Southcape TUGBBS threads, I had no idea about the nasty tone and non-substantiated conjectures that I would receive on a daily basis.  It is difficult to ignore the obnoxious posts and I am considering cancelling my subscription to this discussion board.
> 
> BTW, my wife and I are in possession a printed copy of the Southcape Resort & Club Condominium I Master Deed and Supplement, which we received back in 1982 when we purchase our first week.


I purchased my float week in 1983 but if I was given a copy of the Master Deed, I don't know where it is.  Can you help us?  If I refer you to pages can you answer our questions?

I printed a copy when it was still available on the Southcape Resort website but couldn't save it to the computer (I don't own one!) and haven't had any luck scanning the By-Laws because I can't read the scanned copy.  Now the academic computer lab where I scanned my copy of the By-Laws has replaced the scanner and I don't know whether the new one will do what I was able to get the former one to do.  So for now I'm looking for owners and friends who have copies to help us out.

I agree that the tone of the discussion can turn TUG readers away, and have tried to keep it on topic.  It's quite possible that the Special Assessment paid by Southcape owners isn't being used for renovations at Sandcastle.  Sandcastle owners have received their Special Assessment and they're not happy about it.

It's also possible that the Special Assessment funds are being used to make mortgage payments.  I withheld the remaining $200 and if I pay it, what does that do but put my stamp of approval on the illegal activity engaged in by the unelected board that is unrepresentative of deeded owners?

I never really wanted to be the one to examine the books because this isn't my area of expertise.  I nominate *bhound54* for this, since he and his wife will be at Southcape for two weeks.  Let's hear what excuse NEVMSLLC gives them!


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> I purchased my float week in 1983 but if I was given a copy of the Master Deed, I don't know where it is.  Can you help us?  If I refer you to pages can you answer our questions?
> 
> I printed a copy when it was still available on the Southcape Resort website but couldn't save it to the computer (I don't own one!) and haven't had any luck scanning the By-Laws because I can't read the scanned copy.  Now the academic computer lab where I scanned my copy of the By-Laws has replaced the scanner and I don't know whether the new one will do what I was able to get the former one to do.  So for now I'm looking for owners and friends who have copies to help us out.
> 
> I agree that the tone of the discussion can turn TUG readers away, and have tried to keep it on topic.  It's quite possible that the Special Assessment paid by Southcape owners isn't being used for renovations at Sandcastle.  Sandcastle owners have received their Special Assessment and they're not happy about it.
> 
> It's also possible that the Special Assessment funds are being used to make mortgage payments.  I withheld the remaining $200 and if I pay it, what does that do but put my stamp of approval on the illegal activity engaged in by the unelected board that is unrepresentative of deeded owners?
> 
> I never really wanted to be the one to examine the books because this isn't my area of expertise.  I nominate *bhound54* for this, since he and his wife will be at Southcape for two weeks.  Let's hear what excuse NEVMSLLC gives them!



I have a copy of the Governing Documents if anyone wants them. I will e-mail you a copy Sou13. Take a look at Google Docs, or GMail. I believe both offer some free on-line storage options. Though there are numerous other providers that do that also.


----------



## JackB62

*Recall Board of Trustees?*

Eric,

Obviously, you have legal knowledge.

How would "happy" Southcapers go about recalling the Board of Trustees
who took over and appointed themselves?

Jack


----------



## TUGBrian

if it is something available to the public, TUG will also provide you free storage.


----------



## ecwinch

JackB62 said:


> Eric,
> 
> Obviously, you have legal knowledge.
> 
> How would "happy" Southcapers go about recalling the Board of Trustees
> who took over and appointed themselves?
> 
> Jack



Jack,

In the interest of full disclosure, I am not a lawyer. I do not want Cliff coming back and accusing me of unauthorized practice of the law. 

My read of the governing documents leads me to believe that the only recourse is to challenge the developer control provisions in court. I think the AG would be reluctant to step in on a civil matter unless you have a violation of the law. I am not saying that the issue should not be pursued with the AG, just that might be a long-shot.

At face value the Master Deed grants NEVS the authority to take the actions they have. It is clear from the documents that the developer inventory is exempt from the special assessment. But I cannot find the provision that allows them to avoid paying m/f on their inventory.  

The only "out" I can see is to challenge the developer on the grounds that the development is complete, and developer control provisions have expired. With the developer control provisions in place, I do not see any process for replacing the Board of Trustees.


----------



## tombo

ecwinch said:


> And I am not defending Festiva. I am in opposition of the truth being bent by either side of the discussion. If you feel the need to use innuendo to make your point, then I will post the the facts that have been reported. FestivaRep has specifically denied the allegations you have raised regarding the business relationship. Now you want to speculate that they are not paying m/f's. To continue to speculate without any proof is not reasonable. By extension you can speculate that the housekeeping staff is slave labor imported from China. No, I cannot disprove that allegation either.
> 
> In my mind, engaging in such behavior just diminishes the valid points you have made.
> 
> So we can bicker about the fine points if you want. But to provide some balance to the discussion, I will continue to point out inaccuracies in your posts. As you pointed out, you are free to ignore my posts in that regard.



I have been out of town and don't feel like a full blown battle since my battle is actually against Festiva/ Outfield, not Eric, however I can't let your assertion that you have pointed out inaccuracies go unanswered. My inaccuracy according to you is because I feel that there is some business relationship between Festiva and NEVS and I feel that they are probably not paying MF's/assessments on unsold weeks they own. You have no proof that they are paying MF's on weeks they have that are unsold, but you immediatelly call my postulation wrong. How about letting Festiva rep answer since you have no proof that they are paying MF's and assessments on all of their unsold weeks? You simply assume they pay, you have no knowledge or proof that they do. For you to to continue to speculate that they pay MF's/assessments on all of their unsold weeks at all of their resorts without any proof is as you said not reasonable.

You call it proof that my statement is wrong because Festiva Rep denied any business relationship with NEVMS. So that statement is now fact although no proof has been presented? I am glad to hear that you are not a lawyer. When asked on the stand if an accused committed murder and they answered no, I assume you would feel no need to cross examine because the question had already been asked and answered.  I guess when Richard Nixon said that he had nothing to do with Watergate that should have been the end of any speculation that he might possibly be involved. Once Cliff said that Outfield didn't have an office in Texas all discussion of that should have ended because any discussion from that point was purely was conjecture. When Cliff denied making posts here as anyone other than NEVMS and I questioned the validity of some of the fake posters, you criticized my treatment of new guests and criticized my questioning their validity. You apologized to them (Cliff) for my questioning who they were just because they said they weren't Cliff (what did you expect Cliff to say?). Your assumption that I had insulted a real guest was innacurate and my speculation that the posts were made by Cliff was correct. Of course it was Cliff and since then even you have acknowledged that it was Cliff. Had we simply have gone with Cliff's answer as you suggested we would never have known for sure that Cliff was Mass, cape,viv,stein, etc. I must point out your inaccuracies.

For one of us to make a statement here or question a possibility without proof is speculation that is unacceptable to you. On the other hand for Festiva/Outfield/NEVS to make a statement here immediatelly becomes a fact that you feel needs no further discussion, disbelief, or investigation? 

If we are to take everything stated here by Festiva/Outfield/NEVS as the gospel truth as you suggest then Festiva Points will easily get you 4th of July weeks on the Cape, RCI is cancelling it's relationship at all Festiva Resorts, weeks are worthless, Festiva points are worth a lot, everyone is swapping to points, outfield does not have an office in Texas, Outfield fires or retrains any sales people that lie, Outfield no longer uses pressure or lies to sell FAC, Cliff has never posted here using an alias, Cliff doesn't do business with Outfield because it would be wrong, NEVS doesn't have to pay MF's or assessments on any weeks they own, Festiva isn't being sued by Owners at the Atrium, Festiva didn't lose the Missouri lawsuit (they settled and paid restitution which FR didn't consider a loss), and many other truthful facts we should believe because they were told to us by Festiva/Outfield/NEVS (of course these facts were proven to not be true). Heck why keep discussing anything about Festiva/Outfield/NEVS here because all we have to do is read their posts and trust their posts to be 100% accurate. The only innacuracies here apparently are  posted by those of us who have been told enough lies  to question anything they say.


----------



## e.bram

And to add to what Tombo said, we should trust everything told us at a TS sales presention to be absolutely true.


----------



## bhound54

"I never really wanted to be the one to examine the books because this isn't my area of expertise. I nominate bhound54 for this, since he and his wife will be at Southcape for two weeks. Let's hear what excuse NEVMSLLC gives them!"

I appreciate the vote of confidence but my wife and I  had other plans for our vacation.


----------



## Russ45

ecwinch said:


> Jack,
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, I am not a lawyer. I do not want Cliff coming back and accusing me of unauthorized practice of the law.
> 
> My read of the governing documents leads me to believe that the only recourse is to challenge the developer control provisions in court. I think the AG would be reluctant to step in on a civil matter unless you have a violation of the law. I am not saying that the issue should not be pursued with the AG, just that might be a long-shot.
> 
> At face value the Master Deed grants NEVS the authority to take the actions they have. It is clear from the documents that the developer inventory is exempt from the special assessment. But I cannot find the provision that allows them to avoid paying m/f on their inventory.
> 
> The only "out" I can see is to challenge the developer on the grounds that the development is complete, and developer control provisions have expired. With the developer control provisions in place, I do not see any process for replacing the Board of Trustees.



As I read the Master Deed I see that the Association (Corporation) may hold a special or annual meeting for removal of a director with notice and a 2/3 vote.  Can unit owners call a special meeting without the directors? Also the deed says the "first board" shall be fixed by the incorporators, however this isn't the first board, the Association has remained intact through the sale to NEVS, so wouldn't the current board be limited to a one year term?


----------



## ecwinch

Russ45 said:


> As I read the Master Deed I see that the Association (Corporation) may hold a special or annual meeting for removal of a director with notice and a 2/3 vote.  Can unit owners call a special meeting without the directors? Also the deed says the "first board" shall be fixed by the incorporators, however this isn't the first board, the Association has remained intact through the sale to NEVS, so wouldn't the current board be limited to a one year term?



Check Article V of the By-Laws pertaining to Control By Declarant. The key provision is "upon completion of the development of the premises".


----------



## Carolinian

ecwinch said:


> Do you not mean the burden of the developer inventory? Was there significant value to the inventory that the developer walked away from?
> 
> I do agree with core premise, that change will only come when the majority of govening body is concerned owners that protect the interests of the owners. I am not of the opinion that means throwing the developer out. I have poorly run resorts that have no developer involvement. Kicking out the developer is not a panacea for everything.



Actually, at those resorts, the resale market was a lot better in the time period the HOA's took over the developer inventory in return for not pursuing past due m/f's on them.  One HOA turned around and wholesaled the weeks it got from the developer to an out of state reseller for an amount that was about two years worth of m/f's per week, so they came out just fine.  The other HOA's also made disposition of the weeks they got, but I am less familiar with the details.

Getting rid of the developer is not a panacea, but it gives the resort better odds than if they kept the developer.  The resorts farthest behind on refurbishment on the OBX are two of the three still under developer control.
Battles with ''subsequent developers'' (those who took over from the original developer, like NEVS did on the Cape) ultimately crashed one timeshare on the OBX and was on the verge of crashing a second last I heard.  The farther the HOA can get away from a developer, the better.


----------



## ecwinch

tombo said:


> You have no proof that they are paying MF's on weeks they have that are unsold, but you immediatelly call my postulation wrong. How about letting Festiva rep answer since you have no proof that they are paying MF's and assessments on all of their unsold weeks? You simply assume they pay, you have no knowledge or proof that they do. For you to to continue to speculate that they pay MF's/assessments on all of their unsold weeks at all of their resorts without any proof is as you said not reasonable.
> 
> I am glad to hear that you are not a lawyer. When asked on the stand if an accused committed murder and they answered no, I assume you would feel no need to cross examine because the question had already been asked and answered.  I guess when Richard Nixon said that he had nothing to do with Watergate that should have been the end of any speculation that he might possibly be involved.
> 
> The only innacuracies here apparently are  posted by those of us who have been told enough lies  to question anything they say.



Tombo,

There is a difference between asking a question and making a statement. You did not ask FestivaRep about m/f. You stated:

"However, unless legally forced to pay MF's and assessments on developer owned units, Festiva and NEVS will not pay."

That is not a question. It is phrased as a statement of fact. 

And in a trial, once a question has been asked and answered, to continue to ask the same question is badgering the witness. It is fine to ask about other aspects of the relationship like the office, and FestivaRep answered that question. 

It is fine if you want to be rude and boorish on the subject. That is your right. However this thread is about Southcape owners. We already have a post from one owner that they dislike the "nasty tone and non-substantiated conjectures that I would receive on a daily basis". 

And please stop trying to put words in my mouth to marginalize my opinion. I have been in this thread long enough for people to know what I believe and stand-for. Is your issue with Festiva so critical that you want to run-off the Southcape owners who you seemingly want to help?


----------



## Carolinian

ecwinch said:


> Jack,
> 
> In the interest of full disclosure, I am not a lawyer. I do not want Cliff coming back and accusing me of unauthorized practice of the law.
> 
> My read of the governing documents leads me to believe that the only recourse is to challenge the developer control provisions in court. I think the AG would be reluctant to step in on a civil matter unless you have a violation of the law. I am not saying that the issue should not be pursued with the AG, just that might be a long-shot.
> 
> At face value the Master Deed grants NEVS the authority to take the actions they have. It is clear from the documents that the developer inventory is exempt from the special assessment. But I cannot find the provision that allows them to avoid paying m/f on their inventory.
> 
> The only "out" I can see is to challenge the developer on the grounds that the development is complete, and developer control provisions have expired. With the developer control provisions in place, I do not see any process for replacing the Board of Trustees.



It is critical that the owners organize and consult a local lawyer as soon as they can.  The more people that these people hornswaggle into ''converting'' the farther ahead they are in their scheme to permanently control the resort.

AG's only get involve if there is a big groundswell of complaints, someone knows someone in the AG's office to get them interested, or the AG sees a PR angle in it for himself.  The agency in North Carolina that has been most active in fighting developers on behalf of t/s  owners rights has not been the AG but the Real Estate Commission.  The Real Estate Commission is the agency that regulates timeshare in North Carolina.  For many years, Blackwell Brogden was their timeshare man, and he didn't mind doing battle with any of the big boys he thought was doing wrong.  He even backed RCI down on some key features of what is now RCI Points back in its infancy when it was called GPN.  You need to find out what agency regulates timeshare in your state and see if you can find a man like Brogden there.


----------



## ecwinch

Carolinian said:


> Actually, at those resorts, the resale market was a lot better in the time period the HOA's took over the developer inventory in return for not pursuing past due m/f's on them.  One HOA turned around and wholesaled the weeks it got from the developer to an out of state reseller for an amount that was about two years worth of m/f's per week, so they came out just fine.  The other HOA's also made disposition of the weeks they got, but I am less familiar with the details.
> 
> Getting rid of the developer is not a panacea, but it gives the resort better odds than if they kept the developer.  The resorts farthest behind on refurbishment on the OBX are two of the three still under developer control.
> Battles with ''subsequent developers'' (those who took over from the original developer, like NEVS did on the Cape) ultimately crashed one timeshare on the OBX and was on the verge of crashing a second last I heard.  The farther the HOA can get away from a developer, the better.



We can disagree, perhaps in a different thread. I think a good resort has a developer presence to some degree. MVCI is one case in point. I agree that a resort under developer control is a bad thing. Timeshares are basically ponzi schemes, and attracting new owners is essential to any viable timeshare that is not blessed with a great location and small off-season.


----------



## Carolinian

ecwinch said:


> We can disagree, perhaps in a different thread. I think a good resort has a developer presence to some degree. MVCI is one case in point. I agree that a resort under developer control is a bad thing. Timeshares are basically ponzi schemes, and attracting new owners is essential to any viable timeshare that is not blessed with a great location and small off-season.



The well managed homeowner-controlled timeshares on the OBX have done just fine on resales without a developer.  In fact, in their final months, most developers were sitting on remaining inventory, not actively selling, and not paying m/f's.  They were deadwood that needed to be gone.  Some of the largest management companies get involved in resale.  At smaller resorts, resale often is the portfolio of one board member, and many of them have figured out some creative ways to move HOA inventory.


----------



## FestivaRep

NEVS
Box 2847
Hyannis, MA 02601



ChrisH said:


> Hi Festiva Rep
> 
> Do you have the correct postal mailing address for NEVS in Massachusetts?  I can't seem to find it anywhere and I wish to write them questions about Sandcastle.  The last address I used was 93 Hawes Ave in Hyannis, but it was returned as not picked up after 20 days by the post office.
> 
> Thanks
> Chris


----------



## Russ45

ecwinch said:


> Check Article V of the By-Laws pertaining to Control By Declarant. The key provision is "upon completion of the development of the premises".



But there is no definition of "completion of development" in the Master deed as far as I can see, and we are not at 163 units either.  So this could be in perpetuity unless I missed something? The declaration of trust also discusses trustee elections but does not mention the control of declarant statement made in the MD, conflict, or is the MD controlling in a document conflict?.


----------



## FestivaRep

Like any other owner at a resort, Festiva does indeed pay maintenance fees and special assessments on all weeks owned by the Adventure Club at all resorts in the FAC network including Southcape and Sandcastle. 

Moving on, unfortunately this will be my last post.  It has become impossible to try to help owners and members by providing facts and clarity here in the midst of the innuendo, half-truths and assumptions.  I greatly appreciate the support I have gotten from the TUG administrators and several of the members on this board.  However, it has become evident that our attempts to provide accurate information and resolve misunderstandings only become fuel to the fire for a small, yet very active, number of folks who are unwilling to accept any of our answers.  

I do think it’s unfortunate that I must stop posting because we are genuinely willing to answer questions with accurate information and I think that TUG has the potential to be a great medium for an ongoing conversation between members/owners and resort/club management/developers/etc., but instead the focus for a few is to dispute and assail with fervor any factual information that we attempt to provide or clarify. 

There have been a few TUG readers who have already taken the initiative to contact me personally for help, and we have been able to quickly address and successfully resolve their problems.  All of you on this board who have serious questions and are willing to come directly to the source for help are encouraged to do so, and you can contact me directly at comments@festivaresorts.com.  

Also, I was asked once again to extend the invitation from our president to any of you who wish to visit our headquarters in Asheville, and if you do want help with your situation, I encourage you to take action and come speak with us directly either by e-mail, in writing or in person.

I wish you all the best of luck, and I do hope to hear from you soon.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, FestivaRep!*

Thank you, FestivaRep, for your participation in these discussions.  You have answered the most pressing question here, which I thought you had answered in the "Festiva takes over" discussion but needed to have you repeat it here.

According to you, Festiva should have paid Southcape Resort the maintenance fees and special assessments for all the owners who have converted to the FAC.  

I have gone through the Southcape weeks which were converted to Festiva points and have come up with a figure for the amount Festiva should have paid in MFs and SAs for their converted weeks.  I figured that for the 107 FAC members who converted before the MF was due and SA was added, Festiva should have paid $943.88.  For the 38 who converted after Jan. 31 but before March 31, Festiva should have paid $400.  The total Festiva should have paid Southcape for 2009 should be at least $116,195.16:

107 x 943.88 = $100,995.16
  38 x 400.00 =     15,200.00
Total:                         $116,195.16


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## tombo

FestivaRep said:


> Like any other owner at a resort, Festiva does indeed pay maintenance fees and special assessments on all weeks owned by the Adventure Club at all resorts in the FAC network including Southcape and Sandcastle. .



My question was about unsold inventory. This is another example of spin where an answer was given that didn't actually answer my question. Does Festiva pay MF's and assessments on unsold inventory they bought from HOA's or a previous developer when they take over a resort? 



FestivaRep said:


> Moving on, unfortunately this will be my last post.  It has become impossible to try to help owners and members by providing facts and clarity here in the midst of the innuendo, half-truths and assumptions.    All of you on this board who have serious questions and are willing to come directly to the source for help are encouraged to do so, and you can contact me directly at comments@festivaresorts.com.
> 
> Also, I was asked once again to extend the invitation from our president to any of you who wish to visit our headquarters in Asheville, and if you do want help with your situation, I encourage you to take action and come speak with us directly either by e-mail, in writing or in person.
> 
> I wish you all the best of luck, and I do hope to hear from you soon.



I asked weeks ago why Festiva continued to employ Outfield to market in people's homes when you stopped allowing them to market at Peppertree resorts because of numerous complaints? You said you would get back to me and of course you didn't. I have to say that you are very nice and did a great job, but so many questions remain unanswered or halfway answered that I always have doubts about the responses that were given. I have great problems with Festiva and not with you personally because you are simply doing the job Festiva paid you to do.

I am glad that you will allow those who want to respond to you to e-mail you and perhaps one day you will come back. The problems with Festiva/Outfield/NEVS will not change just because you no longer post here, and our opinions will not change until festiva changes many of it's policies including employing Outfield. You were gone from TUG for many months until this forum got heated up with Cliff, and perhaps when another forum gets heated up you will be back again. I hope you have great e-mails with some of the owners here, and I promise you that I will not bother you with any e-mails from me.

Sincerely, 

Tombo


----------



## e.bram

The way I look at it, Festiva is not the problem(except for the suckers that converted) Most of the converters were probably off and off-off season weeks. Many of those may have(eventually)bailed causing a loss of m/fs to the TS. With Festiva the TS is more or less guarenteed those funds even if the Festiva Club Members(SC convertees) bail out of Festiva leaving them not collecting those club dues. Festiva will have to keep paying all those monies to SC which the TS would lose if deeded owners bail.
If Cliff and NEVS were forced to pay or give up ownership of the developer units to the HOA, the owner run board could take over and solve the peoblems SC has.(in addition saving management fees paid to NEVS)
Court action is probably required to do this.
Ecwinch: In court questions only have to be asked once, if the respondant lies they go to jail(purjury)


----------



## ecwinch

Russ45 said:


> But there is no definition of "completion of development" in the Master deed as far as I can see, and we are not at 163 units either.  So this could be in perpetuity unless I missed something? The declaration of trust also discusses trustee elections but does not mention the control of declarant statement made in the MD, conflict, or is the MD controlling in a document conflict?.



The Master Deed is the controlling document. The by-laws govern the HOA. Under the Master Deed development would be complete when all 163 units are constructed. 

So the Developer control provisions are predicated on the development being complete. But given the land that was lost to county due to un-paid taxes, it would be problematic for the development to be completed as outlined in the Master Deed. I think it becomes a catch-22 that can only be resolved by a court ruling.


----------



## Carolinian

Whether FestivaRep left or not is of little consequence.  Her responses have to be taken with a grain of salt, sort of like ''Madge'' from RCI or, say, a timeshare salesman.  I wouldn't take anything she said as gospel any more than I would beleive what a timeshare salesman said.

The important thing is that owners and their advocates not fight among themselves.  There are several very serious wolves at the door and there is simply no time for that.


----------



## TUGBrian

sure wish you two would argue privately or stay on topic.


----------



## Sou13

*Southcape Master Deed*

Eric, did you get in touch with TUGBrian about posting the Master Deed?  It is a public document but it's 145 pages!


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> Eric, did you get in touch with TUGBrian about posting the Master Deed?  It is a public document but it's 145 pages!



I have the Condo I Master Deed, but it is too large to send by e-mail (47mb).


----------



## Sou13

It has to be broken down into 10 MB segments.


----------



## TUGBrian

ive deleted the annoying banter that has gone on in the past few pages as none of the parties involved seemed to care about my comment.

as for the file, ill provide you an ftp login so you can upload it directly to a tug server, then ill move it somewhere anyone can access it.  shoot me an email so i wont forget =)


----------



## Sou13

*Welcome back, Concerned Southcape Interval Owners!*

Thank you, TUGBrian, for deleting those posts instead of shutting down this entire discussion!  I apologize for resorting to "shouting" and thank you for deleting that as well!

So now let's get back to the discussion of Southcape Resort by owners for owners.  While the comments of non-owners have been helpful, many of them have driven owners away.  So let's get back to our purpose here, which is to help inform owners what owners need to know.

Today I heard from an owner who came across a notice from 1989 when she still had a mortgage and therefore was ineligible to vote.  The notice was that there was to be an election and that the board was to be composed of three owners and the two developers.  Terms were to be for three years.  In order to be eligible to vote, all MFs had to be paid in full. So why do we now have 5 non-MF/SA-paying owners on the board?  They were not elected, they appointed themselves!  

Anyone who will be staying at Southcape needs to contact nevmsllc@gmail.com for an appointment to examine the books.  We need to know where that illegally-imposed "special assessment" has been put in trust for us.

We also need to know whether Festiva has paid the more than $116,000 that should have been paid for "converted" weeks in 2009.  I calculated this amount based on when the deeds were converted, assuming that everyone who converted before the MF was due didn't pay the $993.88 that owners have been billed, and that anyone who converted between Jan. 31 and April 1 didn't pay the $400.  This was just an approximation as I have no way of knowing exactly when the contracts were signed and whether these owners had paid the MF or SA.

I've been reviewing NEVMSLLC's posts from March 27-April 15.  Anyone who needs a copy can email me and I will happily provide one.

Thank you again, TUGBrian!


----------



## TomBenoit

*Master Deed*



ecwinch said:


> I have the Condo I Master Deed, but it is too large to send by e-mail (47mb).



Can you compress it with something like ZIP?  That usually has about a 10-1 compression.


----------



## ecwinch

*Southcape Master Deed*

The Master Deed has been uploaded to TUG. I suspect that Brian will making a link available.


----------



## TUGBrian

yep, ill post a link to it tomorrow.


----------



## TUGBrian

http://tug2.com/southcape/south_cape_master_deed.pdf


----------



## TUGBrian

can right click > save as if you dont wish to view it in your browser (what the link does)


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, Eric and TUGBrian!*

Thank you, Eric and TUGBrian!  I hope that all Southcape owners who didn't realize they needed to download the Master Deed will save this file!

Here's the notice from 1989:

FROM: 
BOARD OF TRUSTEES 
DATE: 
JUNE 27, 1989 
Pursuant to our by-laws, the Trustees are pleased to announce that the Annual Meeting of the unit owners will be held on Monday, July 31, 1989, from 1:00 p. m. to 4: 00 p. m. at the Queen of All Saints Church on Great Neck Road, Mashpee, Massachusetts, which is located ~ mile before the entrance to New Seabury.

*The purpose of the meeting is to discuss and vote on the matters shown on the enclosed agenda, the most important of which is the election of two Trustees, one for a three (3) year term, and the other for a two (2) year term. The present Board of Trustees voted unanimously on June 2, 1989 to increase the Trustee's terms to three (3) years and to have three (3) elected Trustees.*

Since the last Annual Meeting in 1988, we have received a number of inquiries concerning the right of unit owners to vote or to assign their vote by proxy to others. The Trustees take this opportunity to remind each unit owner that the "right to vote personally at the meeting, or by proxy, is limited to unit owners in both the following categories:

1.	*Unit owners who are current on the payment of their Condominium/Maintenance charge;* and 
2.	Unit owners whose interval(s) is/are not mortgaged to a lender. 

[NOTE: With respect to mortgaged units, according to documents signed by owners at the time of their purchase, the right to vote has been assigned to their respective LENDER/MORTGAGEE.]

*For unit owners qualified to vote as herein before stated, enclosed is a ballot and proxy form to record your choice for the election of two (2) members for the Board of Trustees.*

To expedite the election procedure this year, the Trustees at an earlier meeting ruled to limit nominations to the Board of Trustees to those made by written notice received by our office thirty (30) days prior to the scheduled Annual Meeting. Therefore, qualified voters are requested to return their ballot or proxy prior to the meeting by mail to our office, whether or not you plan to attend the meeting. This procedure is being implemented to save time and to provide us with the results before the Annual Meeting is adjourned. Furthermore, it is imperative to receive enough proxies in order to achieve a quorum (25%) to avoid a rescheduling of this year' s annual meeting.

We invite your questions and suggestions. Please plan to attend the meeting.


----------



## ecwinch

Just a non-owner suggestion, but you might want to determine the exact title of the organization that is meeting.

is it:

SouthCape Resort & Club Condominium Trust

or

SouthCape Resort Club Community Association, Inc

or

something else 


According to the Master Deed, the Association is governed by a Board of Directors. The Trust is administered by Trustees. There are two sets of by-laws in the Master Deed. One pertains to the Trust, and the other to the Association. 

Based on Cliff's statements, I believe the Trust is meeting. The Meeting date aligns with the meeting date specified in the by-laws of the Trust.


----------



## Russ45

ecwinch said:


> The Master Deed is the controlling document. The by-laws govern the HOA. Under the Master Deed development would be complete when all 163 units are constructed.
> 
> So the Developer control provisions are predicated on the development being complete. But given the land that was lost to county due to un-paid taxes, it would be problematic for the development to be completed as outlined in the Master Deed. I think it becomes a catch-22 that can only be resolved by a court ruling.



Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## CharlesS

*Thank You*



ecwinch said:


> The Master Deed has been uploaded to TUG. I suspect that Brian will making a link available.


Thank you for providing the electronic copy of the Master Deed and thank you to TUG for making it available to all of us.  

The original documents are subject to amendment and I am guessing they have been amended several times.  Do you have copies of the amendments?

As an aside, if anyone has difficulty falling asleep at night, reading these documents will often help.   

Charles


----------



## Sou13

*Are you a Southcape owner?*

Charles, are you a Southcape owner?  Would you like me to email you the documents that have to be sent as attachments?

To view Southcape recorded documents, go to Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access and search the free public access (on the left sidebar) for "Recorded land by name" and fill in "Atlantic Metropolitan" (Town: Mashpee) and click on the abstract of the 51-pages of the "Restriction."  Then go to the "Deed" which is the next 59 pages, and you will find:
Ref By: 08-13-1982 Certificate In book: 3537-1 
Ref By: 05-18-1983 Amendment In book: 3743-281 
Ref By: 08-29-1985 Assignment In book: 4688-163 
Ref By: 06-30-1988 Estate Tax Release In book: 6331-178 
Ref By: 05-05-1989 Discharge In book: 6724-327 
Ref By: 05-05-1989 Discharge In book: 6724-328 
Ref By: 05-18-1989 Discharge In book: 6740-219 
Ref By: 09-27-2002 Death Certificate In book: 15656-243 

Then go back to the Main Menu and click on "recorded land by book and page"  and fill in book 3526 page 111.  Here you will find the Declaration of Trust for "Southcape Resort & Club Condominium One Trust" and all entries are for certificates, discharges, notices, and even a death notice.

Now go to book 5937 page 135 and you will find the 28-page "Declaration of Trust" for "Southcape Resort & Club Condominium Two Trust" and now you see that there were two separate condominium trusts holding annual meetings on different dates.  It wasn't until 1990 that the two meetings got combined into one, but I have yet to find the recorded documents for this.  

As Eric asked, are we Southcape Resort & Club Community Association, Inc., or are we "Southcape Resort & Club Condominium One Trust" or to this I must add "Southcape Resort & Club Condominium Two Trust"?  Where are the recorded deeds for the combined trusts into one association?

When I go back to the main menu and enter "Southcape Resort & Club Condo" I find that all the recorded transactions come up as "Condo II" and there are only three for "Condo I"!

The problem is to find under what name the "developer rights" were sold in 1989, or whether there were any "developer rights" to be sold!


----------



## Sou13

*The Barth & Woods Era*

As I search through the various names under which deeds have been filed or should have been filed I find one especially interesting name, which is "JED Properties Inc." which is a domestic *for profit* corporation registered in 1986 and dissolved in 1998 for failure to file annual reports.

Whatever was going on for 18 years under Barth & Woods, we now need to find our way out of the mess.  Festiva is not the answer, nor is Outfield Marketing.  Owner involvement is what we need, and we need it yesterday.


----------



## Sou13

*Master Deed for Southcape Condo II*

I have located the Master Deed for Condo II.  It's found in Book 5937 Page 84.  Here are the Book and Page numbers I've found so far:

Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access
Book 3526 Page 001:  Restriction
Book 3526 Page 052:  Master Deed
Book 3526 Page 111:  Declaration of Trust, Condo I
Book 5937 Page 084:  Master Deed, Condo II
Book 5937 Page 135:  Declaration of Trust, Condo II

Because I use public access to the Internet I am unable to view any of these documents.  Can anyone help me here?


----------



## Sou13

*INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (AS TR) (Gtee)*

I checked the INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (AS TR) (Gtee) Southcape conversions today and found that, for all Outfield Marketing's efforts, there have been less than 15 all summer, and about 1/2 of them are "float" weeks.


----------



## nancyt

*Attorney General Complaints*

I have been communicating with Ralph Smith at the Consumer Assistance Council, Inc. (working in cooperation with the Attorney General of Massachusetts), 149 Main Street, Hyannis, MA 02601.  He has been very helpful and is interested in helping us, but needs to hear from more of you.  I gave the names of a number of people who I know have submitted complaint forms and many of those complaints have not been received by him.  I believe that we all have been using different companies or people that we have been complaining about.  Please include all of these names: New England Vacation Services, Festiva Adventure Club, South Cape Resort and Time share and Sand Castle Resort and Timeshare on your complaint form or letter and it should get to a mutual collection file.  Please consider resubmitting your complaint if you think yours is not there, or check by calling: 508-771-0700 or e-mailing cac@capecod.net.  We've got a good start.  Keep your complaints coming.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Thank you for this information*



nancyt said:


> I have been communicating with Ralph Smith at the Consumer Assistance Council, Inc. (working in cooperation with the Attorney General of Massachusetts), 149 Main Street, Hyannis, MA 02601.  He has been very helpful and is interested in helping us, but needs to hear from more of you.  I gave the names of a number of people who I know have submitted complaint forms and many of those complaints have not been received by him.  I believe that we all have been using different companies or people that we have been complaining about.  Please include all of these names: New England Vacation Services, Festiva Adventure Club, South Cape Resort and Time share and Sand Castle Resort and Timeshare on your complaint form or letter and it should get to a mutual collection file.  Please consider resubmitting your complaint if you think yours is not there, or check by calling: 508-771-0700 or e-mailing cac@capecod.net.  We've got a good start.  Keep your complaints coming.



Thanks Nancy.  

I am not a Southcape owner, I own at Sandcastle.  Hadn't heard of this source of help, but I will be sending copies of everything that I have already sent to the AG and copies of communications with Cliff.  I wil also let other Sandcastle owners now about this source.


----------



## Sou13

*Updates, anyone?*

I took two days off over the weekend and there have been no updates.  I do have an important question:  Has anyone heard anything about the "owners' advisory group" that we've been promised?  

I decided not to nominate myself at the meeting because I thought that Rebecca would be a better choice.  But whatever has become of Rebecca?  Does anyone have any info on Rebecca?


----------



## ChrisH

*Did Festiva tell you about this FEE! - NOT*

http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/festiva-resorts-c241327.html

Festiva Resorts Complaints - Additional Reservation Charges 

Posted: *2009-08-14  * 

We bought with Festiva 3 years ago. I wanted to believe this company was "different" from other timeshare companies. However, in the last 3 years, more and more deception and misrepresentations have occurred to now I deeply regret buying my timeshare from them. First they convinced that we had to convert over to points or else lose the value we had originally purchased, we paid several thousand dollars more to not have the benefits we did before - unbelievably! *We can now no longer deal directly with the location we purchased from to begin with, but rather are forced to deal with the Adventure Club (Festiva), who charge $89 every time you want to make a reservation (after the first call of the year.)  *The whole sales pitch about benefits of points was to make those "last minute" calls and save point value... but if you have to pay for the call, you've lost your savings. I'm sick to think of how much I am paying for less benefits that we had originally (not to mention $300 more in maintenance fees - which they didn't tell us until we were just about to sign our name to the contract) - DO NOT BUY from these people - they are crooks.


----------



## bhound54

*Wireless Internet Access at Southcape*

Hello Friends,

I promised a report on the wireless set-up during my two weeks up at Southcape.  The good news is that I’m sharing this message via one of the wireless internet access points that have been set up at the resort.  I’ve been waiting for this event for years.  

The bad news is that the closest wireless access point is on the other side of the building that our unit is in.  To get a strong signal, I have to take my laptop to the patio of the unit of the other side of the building.  It is fortunate that the weather is good this week and the unit whose patio I’m using is not occupied this week.

Oddly, there still is not an access point within the clubhouse.  I have spoken to Rosaleen and Gordon, who shared my disappointment with the current coverage and will work off-season to improve it.  I greatly appreciate the effort but the wireless internet at our resort is a work still in progress.

Best wishes,

Bhound54


----------



## bhound54

*Our Visit with Outfield Marketing at Southcape*

Hello Friends,

Before I share my thoughts about the visit that my wife and I had with Greg of Outfield Marketing, I need to relate a few of timeshare adventures that we have had over the years.

When we bought our original unit at Southcape, one of the big pitches was that with an equipped kitchen, we would save so much on meals that the saving would finance our vacation.  It never quite worked out that way and it is probably just as well.  Part of a vacation (for our family anyway) is to get out of our regular routine, which includes going out instead of cooking every meal in the unit.  

Another pitch that we received was that if you didn’t want to use the unit, you could rent it out for more than the annual maintenance fee.  While we have never tried, I’m pretty skeptical that there are many folks out there who would pay more for a Southcape week from us than the maintenance fee.

When Barth and Woods bought the unsold weeks, one of the special offers they made to owners was the ability to buy a package of weeks at a discount that could used at any of their resorts.  We were tempted until a cooler head pointed out if we would not buy a week at many of those resorts individually, why would it make sense to buy package of such weeks?

So lured by the offer of a $50 Visa gift card, my wife and I entertained Greg’s pitch last week.  It was pretty similar to Frank’s pitch in our home last March.  My wife and I have never traded our weeks at Southcape so access to points is not an attraction to us.  As in March, the pitch shifted to the almost certain risk of additional assessments and the protection of the Festiva (Intercity) trust against such a risk.

It’s a good pitch but I’m troubled by something.  Southcape’s problems are pretty common among aging real estate dwellings.  Who is to say that other units held in the Festiva trust don’t have similar issues that will also require special assessments?  So one could spend several thousand dollars upfront to avoid special assessments, only to have to pay Festiva significantly increased maintenance fees anyway.

I have been told that on average, 50 percent of what you pay for a timeshare unit is for marketing.  So I’m not surprised to find Outfield or anyone else in the business using aggressive marketing techniques.  It is regrettable if anyone else feels misled.  

However, I don’t think that my wife and I will be joining any class actions because we really haven’t been harmed nor have we received a good “pitch”.    Is the class action pitch (upfront money for speculative returns) fundamentally different than the Outfield Marketing pitch?  

Best wishes,

Bhound54


----------



## nancyt

*Our complaints*

Hi Ele,

I just talked to Paul at the: 

Consumer assistance Council, Inc.
149 Main Street
Hyannis, MA 02601

E-Mail: cac@capecod.net
www.consumercouncil.com
Telephone: 508-771-0700
FAX: 508-771-3011


He called the Boston Attorney General's Office and found out that there are FOUR (4) complaints from SOUTHCAPE and 14 from SANDCASTLE. Part of them are at his office and part are at the New Bedford Office.  In the next few days, he hopes to get all 18 at his office, so all complaints against  Cliff Hagberg, NEVS, Outfield Marketing, and Festivia Adventure Club are altogether.

He said that from now on, all complaints should be directed to his office.  A complaint form can be downloaded from the above website and then FAXed or sent to his office.  What they need is a SIGNATURE.  
Complaints need not be lengthy.  The Attorney General is interested in how individuals are being hurt by any or all of the parties mentioned above and especially what number of SENIORS are being hurt.

The Attorney General will respond if it is perceived that a large number of people are being hurt.  

Nancy


----------



## e.bram

Any class actionsuit would deal mainly with the fact that many developer units are not paying m/fs or SAs.(which you have to cover)


----------



## Classylassy523

nancyt said:


> He called the Boston Attorney General's Office and found out that there are FOUR (4) complaints from SOUTHCAPE and 14 from SANDCASTLE. Part of them are at his office and part are at the New Bedford Office.  In the next few days, he hopes to get all 18 at his office, so all complaints against  Cliff Hagberg, NEVS, Outfield Marketing, and Festivia Adventure Club are altogether.



Either people in the Attorney General's office can't count, they have papers strewn all over the place, or ten people have all started separate files on this case.  Whatever the reason, if Sandcastle people are to be believed, in excess of 20 letters and complaints have been filed regarding the Sandcastle alone.  I have filed 4 myself and am working on the 5th.  Sandcastle people have raised questions about these numbers in the past.  Contacts at the AGs office say that it doesn't matter where you send the complaints/letters, they all get counted together.  I seriously doubt it.  Maybe they count letters or complaints by the same person as one.  If that is the case then why do they instruct people to file separate complaints for each part of the problem.  Dealing with the AG is very frustrating and disconcerting.


----------



## nancyt

*Number of Complaints*

_Contacts at the AGs office say that it doesn't matter where you send the complaints/letters, they all get counted together. I seriously doubt it. Maybe they count letters or complaints by the same person as one._

You're right!  Things appear to be in disarray in the AG's office.  But they are _trying_ to get all complaints together in one place (address listed above).  Yes, they count each person as one even if more information is added in other communications. BUT it's necessary for them to have ALL the details possible. If they determine that our complaints represent the complaints of many (in our case thousands), Martha's campaign would go better, if she actually helped us.  

We will make a stronger case if we all join forces.  Would it help for those who are in the Boston area to have a meeting?  I'm coming to Massachusetts next week and could name a time and place.


----------



## ChrisH

*Filed Complaints???*



Classylassy523 said:


> Either people in the Attorney General's office can't count, they have papers strewn all over the place, or ten people have all started separate files on this case.  Whatever the reason, if Sandcastle people are to be believed, in excess of 20 letters and complaints have been filed regarding the Sandcastle alone.  I have filed 4 myself and am working on the 5th.  Sandcastle people have raised questions about these numbers in the past.  Contacts at the AGs office say that it doesn't matter where you send the complaints/letters, they all get counted together.  I seriously doubt it.  Maybe they count letters or complaints by the same person as one.  If that is the case then why do they instruct people to file separate complaints for each part of the problem.  Dealing with the AG is very frustrating and disconcerting.



I have also filed three (so far) complaints, by mail to the MA AG addressing 3 separate issues at Sandcastle, each with a separate complaint form.  One against Outfield and 2 against NEVS.  
I have additional information to submit about these former complaints and an additional (separate issue) complaint in progress.  

Are you telling me that this counts as 'one' complaint only, because they were all submitted by 'one' individual even though they address entirely different issues?

I was also told that the associated letters (no complaint form attached) but sent to the AG were also being counted.  

The numbers just don't seem to add up.  I could name (but won't) at least 10 -12 other people who have filed complaints with the AG - some of them multiple but separate complaints - and I'm sure I'm not counting others, especially from Southcape ( that I wouldn't have knowledge of) and some from Sandcastle as well. 

I own at Sandcastle.

Chris


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, bhound54!*



bhound54 said:


> Hello Friends,
> 
> Before I share my thoughts about the visit that my wife and I had with Greg of Outfield Marketing, I need to relate a few of timeshare adventures that we have had over the years.
> 
> When we bought our original unit at Southcape, one of the big pitches was that with an equipped kitchen, we would save so much on meals that the saving would finance our vacation.  It never quite worked out that way and it is probably just as well.  Part of a vacation (for our family anyway) is to get out of our regular routine, which includes going out instead of cooking every meal in the unit.
> 
> Another pitch that we received was that if you didn’t want to use the unit, you could rent it out for more than the annual maintenance fee.  While we have never tried, I’m pretty skeptical that there are many folks out there who would pay more for a Southcape week from us than the maintenance fee.
> 
> When Barth and Woods bought the unsold weeks, one of the special offers they made to owners was the ability to buy a package of weeks at a discount that could used at any of their resorts.  We were tempted until a cooler head pointed out if we would not buy a week at many of those resorts individually, why would it make sense to buy package of such weeks?
> 
> So lured by the offer of a $50 Visa gift card, my wife and I entertained Greg’s pitch last week.  It was pretty similar to Frank’s pitch in our home last March.  My wife and I have never traded our weeks at Southcape so access to points is not an attraction to us.  As in March, the pitch shifted to the almost certain risk of additional assessments and the protection of the Festiva (Intercity) trust against such a risk.
> 
> It’s a good pitch but I’m troubled by something.  Southcape’s problems are pretty common among aging real estate dwellings.  Who is to say that other units held in the Festiva trust don’t have similar issues that will also require special assessments?  So one could spend several thousand dollars upfront to avoid special assessments, only to have to pay Festiva significantly increased maintenance fees anyway.
> 
> I have been told that on average, 50 percent of what you pay for a timeshare unit is for marketing.  So I’m not surprised to find Outfield or anyone else in the business using aggressive marketing techniques.  It is regrettable if anyone else feels misled.
> 
> However, I don’t think that my wife and I will be joining any class actions because we really haven’t been harmed nor have we received a good “pitch”.    Is the class action pitch (upfront money for speculative returns) fundamentally different than the Outfield Marketing pitch?
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Bhound54



I've been holding off from replying to this because I don't want to divert attention from the important AG info that follows your Southcape update.  But I do want to thank you, bhound54, for the updates, and comment on your observations.

As you point out, there are other aging resorts in the FAC and there is more than likely no way to avoid special assessments, so why pay an upfront "conversion" fee to Outfield Marketing if that's the only advantage of joining the FAC?

I'm also noting that Greg is back at Southcape.  Does that mean that Frank wasn't selling enough conversions?  Have you been following the Sandcastle discussions?  If Greg is the Greg Hughes who was at Southcape in November, then he might have been alienating Sandcastle owners and had to be sent back to Southcape.  Either that or he requested the move, because he may have been even more "bored" in Provincetown than he was in Mashpee.

If NEVS were treating owners fairly and abiding by the provisions of the Master Deed and the laws of the Commonwealth there would be no need for AG involvement or resorting to civil action.  Have you attended meetings prior to this year?  You might be able to fill us in on what was going on for the past 18 years when Barth and Woods stripped us of our membership on the Board of Directors!


----------



## Sou13

*Where do you want us to meet?*



nancyt said:


> _Contacts at the AGs office say that it doesn't matter where you send the complaints/letters, they all get counted together. I seriously doubt it. Maybe they count letters or complaints by the same person as one._
> 
> You're right!  Things appear to be in disarray in the AG's office.  But they are _trying_ to get all complaints together in one place (address listed above).  Yes, they count each person as one even if more information is added in other communications. BUT it's necessary for them to have ALL the details possible. If they determine that our complaints represent the complaints of many (in our case thousands), Martha's campaign would go better, if she actually helped us.
> 
> We will make a stronger case if we all join forces.  Would it help for those who are in the Boston area to have a meeting?  I'm coming to Massachusetts next week and could name a time and place.


*We will make a stronger case if we all join forces. Would it help for those who are in the Boston area to have a meeting? I'm coming to Massachusetts next week and could name a time and place.*

We need to get the word out to Southcape and Sandcastle owners who live nearby.  Where and when do you suggest we meet?


----------



## ecwinch

Keep in mind that AG's typically are tasked with enforcing the law, not with resolving contractual disputes between individuals.  The Attorney General cannot act as your private attorney. As a law enforcement agency, the primary function of the Office of Attorney General is to represent the public at large by enforcing laws prohibiting fraudulent or deceptive trade practices that impact the public interest. In most situations, a violation of the By-Laws, is a contractual issue between two parties.  The exception being where the provision of the by-laws is required by state statute or code. 

If you want more traction with the AG, you might need to focus your complaint on the specific violations of the law that you feel are being committed - i.e. Chapter 183B, Section 5, Section 28, Section 30, Section 32, and Section 49; and in regard to Outfield the provisions of Chapter 93A.

Here are some tips from a blog on owner rights I am constructing:

DO focus your complaint on the specific violations of the law

DO get as many owners as possible to file a complaint

DO emphasis if you are a senior citizen. In most states, AG’s have been tasked with specific obligations regarding protection of senior citizens

DO be clear, concise, accurate, and eliminate biases and opinions

DO attach any applicable evidence to your complaint

DO use a summary cover letter if the basis of your complaint is very complicated or lengthy

DONT include your opinion on issues that you are upset about but do not represent a violation of the law or state statute

DONT vent and ramble.

DONT stretch the truth. In most states filing a false complaint is illegal.

DONT include original copies of documents.


----------



## nancyt

*Eric, thanks!*

Concise and helpful!


----------



## nancyt

*Car Problems/MEETING*

Originally, I said I'd be in Massachusetts next week, but it looks like I will be there towards the end of the month.  If you are interested in getting more information about a meeting I will be setting up, contact Sou 13 for DATE and TIME.  We will have copies of the laws Eric presented, complaint forms, and other information folks may have missed in our long discussions.  Also, let Sou 13 know what information you need.  We'll discuss what we know, what has been done so far, our efforts to consolidate with Sand Castle and what we/you would like to see happen next.

Nancy


----------



## BM243923

I drove through South Cape Resort today.  It looks like a very nice resort it is too bad what is going on there.

I am staying at Sea Mist Resort where I purchased instead of South Cape.


----------



## Russ45

bhound54 said:


> Hello Friends,
> 
> Before I share my thoughts about the visit that my wife and I had with Greg of Outfield Marketing, I need to relate a few of timeshare adventures that we have had over the years.
> 
> When we bought our original unit at Southcape, one of the big pitches was that with an equipped kitchen, we would save so much on meals that the saving would finance our vacation.  It never quite worked out that way and it is probably just as well.  Part of a vacation (for our family anyway) is to get out of our regular routine, which includes going out instead of cooking every meal in the unit.
> 
> Another pitch that we received was that if you didn’t want to use the unit, you could rent it out for more than the annual maintenance fee.  While we have never tried, I’m pretty skeptical that there are many folks out there who would pay more for a Southcape week from us than the maintenance fee.
> 
> When Barth and Woods bought the unsold weeks, one of the special offers they made to owners was the ability to buy a package of weeks at a discount that could used at any of their resorts.  We were tempted until a cooler head pointed out if we would not buy a week at many of those resorts individually, why would it make sense to buy package of such weeks?
> 
> So lured by the offer of a $50 Visa gift card, my wife and I entertained Greg’s pitch last week.  It was pretty similar to Frank’s pitch in our home last March.  My wife and I have never traded our weeks at Southcape so access to points is not an attraction to us.  As in March, the pitch shifted to the almost certain risk of additional assessments and the protection of the Festiva (Intercity) trust against such a risk.
> 
> It’s a good pitch but I’m troubled by something.  Southcape’s problems are pretty common among aging real estate dwellings.  Who is to say that other units held in the Festiva trust don’t have similar issues that will also require special assessments?  So one could spend several thousand dollars upfront to avoid special assessments, only to have to pay Festiva significantly increased maintenance fees anyway.
> 
> I have been told that on average, 50 percent of what you pay for a timeshare unit is for marketing.  So I’m not surprised to find Outfield or anyone else in the business using aggressive marketing techniques.  It is regrettable if anyone else feels misled.
> 
> However, I don’t think that my wife and I will be joining any class actions because we really haven’t been harmed nor have we received a good “pitch”.    Is the class action pitch (upfront money for speculative returns) fundamentally different than the Outfield Marketing pitch?
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Bhound54



I believe the idea of the class action is if a government run state or local enforcement agency doesn't investigate the business practices under federal and state law, the lawsuit brings it for the courts to decide.  The "return on investment" is that you will have your voting rights reestablished and as an owner you can have a say in how and where who runs the management of the facility and how and when Maintenance fees and special assessment fees are assessed.  Right now the individual owners have no voice in the management. only the developer who has appointed the Board of Trustees with no termination date.


----------



## Sou13

*How to contact me via email*

Some of you who read these discussions but have never registered to post on TUG may not know how to contact me via email.  To do this you click on my username on the left (where my joined date, location, resorts named, etc. are listed) and then click on "View Public Profile" if you haven't registered to post or haven't yet signed in.  Either way you will need to register to post and sign in in order to "Send email to Sou13" if you aren't already on my Southcape elist.

My elist is confidential and your concern about Southcape is greatly appreciated.


----------



## Classylassy523

Russ45 said:


> I believe the idea of the class action is if a government run state or local enforcement agency doesn't investigate the business practices under federal and state law, the lawsuit brings it for the courts to decide.  The "return on investment" is that you will have your voting rights reestablished and as an owner you can have a say in how and where who runs the management of the facility and how and when Maintenance fees and special assessment fees are assessed.  Right now the individual owners have no voice in the management. only the developer who has appointed the Board of Trustees with no termination date.



And if you love your resort, the investment is well worth it. Not to speak of the pleasure to put Cliff Hagberg, NEVS, NEVMS, Outfield Marketing and Festiva Resorts in their places.


----------



## Classylassy523

How are the employees fairing at Southcape?  

Word came out today that they are falling to the Festiva axe at Sandcastle.  This is standard operating procedure for Festiva.  Get rid of any employees who may have allegiance with the owners.  Get rid of employees who know what is going on behind the scenes.  

There has to be some way to stop this from happening.  Between the two resorts there should be enough owners who care enough about their resort and the loyal employees to be able to unite and fight these fiends off.


----------



## Sou13

I'm under the impression that the employees are being required to encourage owners to convert to Festiva points.  That's the impression I got when I spent Memorial Day weekend there.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Cliff has stated that he is firing for cause*



Sou13 said:


> I'm under the impression that the employees are being required to encourage owners to convert to Festiva points.  That's the impression I got when I spent Memorial Day weekend there.



When questioned about the firing of long time employees at Sandcastle, Cliff stated it was done with cause and could have had criminal charges.  I personally don't believe any of it.  Firing long time employees is part of what Festiva does when they prey upon a resort.


----------



## bhound54

*Southcape thread?*

Hello Friends,

On this list I see postings for both the Sandcastle and Southcape Resorts.  I wish the Sandcastle owners well but my wife and I only own at Southcape.  I recognize the potential tie-in if a class-action suit is initiated but would ask in general that posts of a purely Sandcastle nature be posted to a different list.

I raise this issue as a reply to this thread because the poster (Soul3) is implying that the Southcape employees are encouraging owners to convert to the Festiva Vacation Club and that old-time employees are being terminated.  My wife and I just finished using our two weeks (34-35) and in my opinion, this assertion is not accurate at all.  

At the last Southcape Owners Meeting this year, Cliff went out of his way to express his (and my) admiration for how Rosaleen Cassidy runs the resort.  With the except of one maintenance man (Kevin), we saw the same employees that we have seen for several seasons.  

No Southcape employee has ever encouraged us to convert to the Festiva Vacation Club.  We have entertained "pitches" from Outfield Marketing employees and there is no need for me to repeat my reaction here.

Again, I encourage all civil on-topic posts to this discussion group but please be careful not to post content to this Southcape discussion group about facts or opinions that only relate to the Sandcastle Resort.

Bhound54


----------



## mayorpw

Classylassy523 said:


> When questioned about the firing of long time employees at Sandcastle, Cliff stated it was done with cause and could have had criminal charges.  I personally don't believe any of it.  Firing long time employees is part of what Festiva does when they prey upon a resort.



why do you say things you know nothing about


----------



## Sou13

*Have things changed since Memorial Day weekend?*



bhound54 said:


> Hello Friends,
> 
> On this list I see postings for both the Sandcastle and Southcape Resorts.  I wish the Sandcastle owners well but my wife and I only own at Southcape.  I recognize the potential tie-in if a class-action suit is initiated but would ask in general that posts of a purely Sandcastle nature be posted to a different list.
> 
> I raise this issue as a reply to this thread because the poster (Soul3) is implying that the Southcape employees are encouraging owners to convert to the Festiva Vacation Club and that old-time employees are being terminated.  My wife and I just finished using our two weeks (34-35) and in my opinion, this assertion is not accurate at all.
> 
> At the last Southcape Owners Meeting this year, Cliff went out of his way to express his (and my) admiration for how Rosaleen Cassidy runs the resort.  With the except of one maintenance man (Kevin), we saw the same employees that we have seen for several seasons.
> 
> No Southcape employee has ever encouraged us to convert to the Festiva Vacation Club.  We have entertained "pitches" from Outfield Marketing employees and there is no need for me to repeat my reaction here.
> 
> Again, I encourage all civil on-topic posts to this discussion group but please be careful not to post content to this Southcape discussion group about facts or opinions that only relate to the Sandcastle Resort.
> 
> Bhound54


I have posted my experience and the experience of otheres elsewhere on these forums:  
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=746386&postcount=254 
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=734371&postcount=244
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=735338&postcount=247

Keep singing Rosaleen's praises, and so long as she stays on the good side of NEVS she'll keep her job.  Can you personally vouch for all the other employees?  Have any of them been replaced or fired since we were both there in May?


----------



## e.bram

bhound54:
Not a member of TUG(and wanting to be a moderator) and demanding your rules be followed by posters. Suggest you start your own forum where you can write the posting rules.(you will probably be the only poster.


----------



## ecwinch

I do not think Bhound54 is out of line in suggesting that thread would benefit from being kept on-topic. I fail to see that his post is so egregious that it should be suggested he go create his own forum. He politely expressed his opinion as an owner at Southcape that the thread remain on-topic.

Why the hostility for anyone who wants to relate favorable information?

Attack the post, not the poster.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Attention - Southcape Owners Who Are Victims Of Outfield Marketing*

Tom Mitchell, a Sandcastle owner, has an appointment on Wednesday, September 16, with the Mayor's Office of Consumer Protection which is the Local Consumer Protection Office of the Massachusetts Attorney General's Office in Springfield.  His intent is to carry information that will be useful in proving the acts of deceptive marketing carried out by the Outfield Marketing sales people.

If you turned over your deed(s) because you believed what you were told and later found it to be false, or because you were pressured or felt threatened, and now want your deeds back, contact Tom with your story.  He wants as many cases as he can gather to demonstrate to the advocate that there has been deception and wrong doing.  

The dealings with Outfield have to have taken place within the boundaries of Massachusetts but not limited to Mashpee.  If you met with them at the resort, then Tom wants to hear about it.  If they came to your home and you live in Massachusetts then send Tom your story.

If you live outside of Massachusetts, but the dealings happened in Massachusetts then Tom wants to hear from you, too.

If you know of other owners who would want to have their story presented to the advocate, please contact them and give them this information and Tom's email address.

Tom is an owner at Sandcastle but he is willing to carry Southcape information and stories with him when he meets with the advocate.  

*Please do this as soon as possible as his meeting is this coming Wednesday.  *

*Tom's email address is:  tominspfld@gmail.com*

Thank you


----------



## Sou13

*Sandcastle owners posts are relevant*



ecwinch said:


> I do not think Bhound54 is out of line in suggesting that thread would benefit from being kept on-topic. I fail to see that his post is so egregious that it should be suggested he go create his own forum. He politely expressed his opinion as an owner at Southcape that the thread remain on-topic.
> 
> Why the hostility for anyone who wants to relate favorable information?
> 
> Attack the post, not the poster.


The question was asked by a Sandcastle owner, how are the employees faring at Southcape?

The posts by Sandcastle owners are relevant and informational.  I am not aware that any employees have been fired, but I haven't been to Southcape since Memorial Day weekend.

I did have an experience while there which made me wonder whether the employees of *our* community association are being enticed or intimidated into giving owners' names to the Outfield Marketing sales reps.  Read my post in reply to bhound54 above.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sou13 said:


> The question was asked by a Sandcastle owner, how are the employees faring at Southcape?
> 
> The posts by Sandcastle owners are relevant and informational.  I am not aware that any employees have been fired, but I haven't been to Southcape since Memorial Day weekend.
> 
> I did have an experience while there which made me wonder whether the employees of *our* community association are being enticed or intimidated into giving owners' names to the Outfield Marketing sales reps.  Read my post in reply to bhound54 above.



No employees at Southcape have been terminated.  No employees are being enticed or intimidated in any way.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Classylassy523 said:


> When questioned about the firing of long time employees at Sandcastle, Cliff stated it was done with cause and could have had criminal charges.  I personally don't believe any of it.  Firing long time employees is part of what Festiva does when they prey upon a resort.



Festiva is not "preying" on the resort and has no involvement with resort operations.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Festiva has paid all maintenance fees and special assessments for which they are responsible.


----------



## TomBenoit

*NEVMSLLC - Perhaps you can answer some questions*

I had asked these before but really need specific answers before I decide on any course of action:

Who is Jonathan Brown and did he tell us the truth?

He showed up at our house with a copy of our deed to Southcape back in December 2008. He informed us that (some is on paper):

1) Festiva had purchased Southcape
2) Maintenance fees were going to $750/year
3) The ENTIRE septec system needed to be replaced for $5-10mm 
4) There would be a $500/yr assesment for at least 5 years until
   a) Septic is paid off
   b) There is a $2mm reserve
5) All of Soutcape was switching to II
6) We could avoid the increased maint/assesments by 'upgrading' to Festiva
  a) Year 1 of II would be included
  b) Year 1 of Festiva maint would be included
  c) We could 'opt out' of Festiva without penalty - anytime

We are now hearing some very conflicting information regarding the situation and implying that the individual (in my mind, in some way shape or form,  an agent of Festiva) may not have been totally honest.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

I am no longer engaging in debate or dialogue in this forum.  It's pointless.  I will correct untruths that are posted here.  If you or any other owner would like answers to your questions, please email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com

Cliff


----------



## Classylassy523

NEVMSLLC said:


> I am no longer engaging in debate or dialogue in this forum.  It's pointless.  I will correct untruths that are posted here.  If you or any other owner would like answers to your questions, please email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com
> 
> Cliff



AWWWWW!  Nothings changed.  Same old Cliff.


----------



## Sou13

*So it's true?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> I am no longer engaging in debate or dialogue in this forum.  It's pointless.  I will correct untruths that are posted here.  If you or any other owner would like answers to your questions, please email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com
> 
> Cliff


I believe TomBenoit is asking you to do just that.  So does that mean that what Jonathan Brown told him is true?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sou13 said:


> I believe TomBenoit is asking you to do just that.  So does that mean that what Jonathan Brown told him is true?



My private communications with owners are exactly that - private.


----------



## Fig

*Correcting Untruths*



NEVMSLLC said:


> I am no longer engaging in debate or dialogue in this forum.  It's pointless.  I will correct untruths that are posted here.  If you or any other owner would like answers to your questions, please email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com
> 
> Cliff



"I will correct untruths that are posted here."

Perhaps you should start with yourself, Cliff. On July 9th I posted the TX address of Outfield Marketing. A shed worth about $1,400 at 135 Hickory, Denton TX. Hardly an office at all...more like a potting shed. 

Here is my post http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=753466&postcount=170

Barely 60 minutes had passed when you lept on the post declaring 
"Gee Fig, you've got it wrong again. I've been to Outfield's offices and that ain't it!!" 
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=753502&postcount=171

Well, here is a handwritten legal document "SIGNED UNDER PENALTIES OF PERJURY" filed with the Secretary of The Commonwealth of Massachusetts declaring 135 Hickory as the address of Outfield Marketing's Mark Monroe and Steve Lamantia. Oh, and whose signature is at the bottom? None other than Clifford Hagberg himself.

http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/corpsearch/get_pdf.asp?pdftype=.pdf

Care to let us know which of these statements are true, since you made both of them?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Fig said:


> "I will correct untruths that are posted here."
> 
> Perhaps you should start with yourself, Cliff. On July 9th I posted the TX address of Outfield Marketing. A shed worth about $1,400 at 135 Hickory, Denton TX. Hardly an office at all...more like a potting shed.
> 
> Here is my post http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=753466&postcount=170
> 
> Barely 60 minutes had passed when you lept on the post declaring
> "Gee Fig, you've got it wrong again. I've been to Outfield's offices and that ain't it!!"
> http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=753502&postcount=171
> 
> Well, here is a handwritten legal document "SIGNED UNDER PENALTIES OF PERJURY" filed with the Secretary of The Commonwealth of Massachusetts declaring 135 Hickory as the address of Outfield Marketing's Mark Monroe and Steve Lamantia. Oh, and whose signature is at the bottom? None other than Clifford Hagberg himself.
> 
> http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/corpsearch/get_pdf.asp?pdftype=.pdf
> 
> Care to let us know which of these statements are true, since you made both of them?




Yes, both statements are true. The building you identified is not Outfield's office.  I've been there, you haven't.


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Yes, both statements are true. The building you identified is not Outfield's office.  I've been there, you haven't.



Allow me to share...here we have another legal document saying that $1,400 shed that you list as Steve and Mark's address is indeed the sales office...see those words "Sales Office Location: 135 E Hickory, Denton...2009 Certified Appraised Value $1,450"... the ONLY sales office that you or any legal document list ...the same address any Google search shows. The facts speak for themselves.

http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...tive=on&Year=2009&MinVal=0&MaxVal=&Results=10


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Fig said:


> Allow me to share...here we have another legal document saying that $1,400 shed that you list as Steve and Mark's address is indeed the sales office...see those words "Sales Office Location: 135 E Hickory, Denton...2009 Certified Appraised Value $1,450"... the ONLY sales office that you or any legal document list ...the same address any Google search shows. The facts speak for themselves.
> 
> http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...tive=on&Year=2009&MinVal=0&MaxVal=&Results=10



My comments were made relative to a picture you had posted of a building you identified as their main offices.  I've been to their building and the picture you posted was not it.  I agree, the facts speak for themselves.


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> My comments were made relative to a picture you had posted of a building you identified as their main offices.  I've been to their building and the picture you posted was not it.  I agree, the facts speak for themselves.



I posted no picture...merely a link to Google's street view of Hickory Street in Denton so people could see for themselves the address you registered as the legal address for Outfield Marketing's principals. Afterall, your signature is on the document that states Mark and Steve's legal address is 135 Hickory that Denton TX values at all of $1,450.


----------



## mweinberg

Fig said:


> I posted no picture...merely a link to Google's street view of Hickory Street in Denton so people could see for themselves the address you registered as the legal address for Outfield Marketing's principals. Afterall, your signature is on the document that states Mark and Steve's legal address is 135 Hickory that Denton TX values at all of $1,450.



So what you are trying to tell us is that Outfield's address os 135 Hickory, but the building shown on Google Earth for that address is incorrect?  Then can we assume that Outfield's office would be in one of the other shacks on that street?


----------



## Sou13

*Is this a secret society?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> My private communications with owners are exactly that - private.


I contend that we'd all be better served if you answer his questions publicly so that you don't have to use up your time valued at $1,000 per month charged to us answering these important questions privately.


----------



## ChrisH

*Thanks Mike*



mweinberg said:


> So what you are trying to tell us is that Outfield's address os 135 Hickory, but the building shown on Google Earth for that address is incorrect?  Then can we assume that Outfield's office would be in one of the other shacks on that street?



:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical: 
We all need some laughter in our day!


----------



## mweinberg

ChrisH said:


> :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:
> We all need some laughter in our day!



ChrisH -- I don't think Mr. Hagberg likes us very much.  Maybe he only answers questions from owners who agree with him.

mweinberg


----------



## Fig

mweinberg said:


> So what you are trying to tell us is that Outfield's address os 135 Hickory, but the building shown on Google Earth for that address is incorrect?  Then can we assume that Outfield's office would be in one of the other shacks on that street?



When I posed the question on Outfield Marketing's address to FestivaRep she gave me another address on the street. http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=774104&postcount=986

347 East Hickory
Denton TX 76201

That's worth a whopping $5,000 and unlike Cliff's $1,400 shack that he lists as Steve and Mark's TX address, is not owned by Outfield Marketing. It's a medical billing business according to Denton tax records. (Strange that she gave another company's address.)

http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...=2010&PropertyID=952707&PropertyType=P&AbsCd=

My point is this...if Outfield Marketing is a legitimate third party business, totally independent of Festiva and NEVS, why the big murky mystery when it comes to identifying the business? Cliff and FestivaRep talk about them like they are a big TX based business with all these phone lines, sending out reps to retrain and fire people, etc., etc. and yet after both NEVS and Festiva have been doing business with the company for years, the only legitimate address they offer between the two of them is a $1,400 shed on a run down section of street in Denton, TX. That is the address Cliff gave under penalty of perjury for Outfield Marketing's Steve Lamantia and Mark Monroe.

How independent is Outfield of Festiva when they appear to have no separate existence at all...save for a $1,400 shed, less than half the cost of a single week point conversion?

Is it any wonder Outfield Marketing reps have been quoted here as saying NEVS, Festiva and Outfield are all one big happy company? Aren't these reps who are supposed to be trained by Outfield higher ups a lot closer to the real picture than we are?


----------



## Sou13

*The question is, where are they?*

First find the street view of 135 E. Hickory St.:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Then find the street view of "Outfield Marketing":
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Since the address given for two of the three "principals of Outfield Marketing" who serve as trustees for Southcape Resort & Club Community Association, Inc., is 135, not 212 E. Hickory St., I'm assuming that Outfield Marketing has moved out of the building that houses a Houka Lounge and is located in the building shown on the street view for 135 E. Hickory St.

My question is, where are these trustees and why aren't they selling timeshare weeks so that we can increase the number of  MF- and SA-paying owners?  And why does the Community Association not own the weeks that aren't paying these MFs and SAs?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sou13 said:


> First find the street view of 135 E. Hickory St.:
> http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
> 
> Then find the street view of "Outfield Marketing":
> http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
> 
> Since the address given for two of the three "principals of Outfield Marketing" who serve as trustees for Southcape Resort & Club Community Association, Inc., is 135, not 212 E. Hickory St., I'm assuming that Outfield Marketing has moved out of the building that houses a Houka Lounge and is located in the building shown on the street view for 135 E. Hickory St.
> 
> My question is, where are these trustees and why aren't they selling timeshare weeks so that we can increase the number of  MF- and SA-paying owners?  And why does the Community Association not own the weeks that aren't paying these MFs and SAs?



NEVS is selling weeks.  If you'd like to purchase an extra week, please let me know.  Delinquent weeks that are taken back are taken back in the name of the association, not NEVS.


----------



## Sou13

*To whom are weeks being "sold"?*

Bk-Pg:23138-185    Recorded: 09-04-2008 @ 3:44:18pm  Inst #: 46645  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 82 
Grp: 1 
Type: Mortgage  Doc$: 2,500,000.00 
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtee) 

Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-176 
Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-181 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-114 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-118 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-122 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-126 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-130 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-134 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-138 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-142 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-146 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-150 

 Return addr:  DUNNING KIRRANE MCNICHOLS & GARNER LLP 
  REGISTRY BOX # 9 
  P. O. BOX 560 
  MASHPEE, MA 02649  


DOCUMENT ABSTRACT 
Bk-Pg:23628-197    Recorded: 04-21-2009 @ 3:03:49pm  Inst #: 21198  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 14 TIME 44 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 

Gtor: FOLEY, CARLA F (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601 


Bk-Pg:23628-199    Recorded: 04-21-2009 @ 3:03:49pm  Inst #: 21199  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 14 TIME 9 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 

Gtor: PAUL, PAMELA (Gtor) 

Gtor: PAUL, PAMELA L (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601 


Bk-Pg:23628-201    Recorded: 04-21-2009 @ 3:03:49pm  Inst #: 21200  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 22 TIME 12 13 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 

Gtor: SHERIDAN, PHILLIP T (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601 


Bk-Pg:23628-204    Recorded: 04-21-2009 @ 3:03:49pm  Inst #: 21202  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 25 TIME 38 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 

Gtor: KELL, MICHAEL J (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: KELL, MARYBETH S (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601 


Bk-Pg:24034-146    Recorded: 09-15-2009 @ 3:23:42pm  Inst #: 53036  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Partial Discharge 
Desc: UNIT 32 TIME 1 
Refers to Book: 23138-185 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: ROUTE 28 

Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICE 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601 


DOCUMENT ABSTRACT 
Bk-Pg:24034-148    Recorded: 09-15-2009 @ 3:23:42pm  Inst #: 53037  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 32 TIME 1 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: ROUTE 28 

Gtor: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES 
  6210 STONERIDGE MALL RD STE 140 
  PLEASANTON CA 94588 


Bk-Pg:24034-150    Recorded: 09-15-2009 @ 3:23:42pm  Inst #: 53038  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Partial Discharge 
Desc: UNIT 37 TIME 24 
Refers to Book: 23138-185 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: ROUTE 28 

Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICE 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601 


Bk-Pg:24034-152    Recorded: 09-15-2009 @ 3:23:42pm  Inst #: 53039  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 37 TIME 24 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: ROUTE 28 

Gtor: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor) 

Gtee: INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICE 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601


----------



## Sou13

*???????*



Fig said:


> Allow me to share...here we have another legal document saying that $1,400 shed that you list as Steve and Mark's address is indeed the sales office...see those words "Sales Office Location: 135 E Hickory, Denton...2009 Certified Appraised Value $1,450"... the ONLY sales office that you or any legal document list ...the same address any Google search shows. The facts speak for themselves.
> 
> http://www.dentoncad.com/index.php?...tive=on&Year=2009&MinVal=0&MaxVal=&Results=10


This is really odd.  I went to that site and asked a question about the property.  The answer is that it's "personal property" only and does not include the building and land.


----------



## Sou13

*NEVS is selling weeks to whom?*

Still wondering about the claim that weeks are being "sold" I accessed the BROWNtech Document Management Systems and looked for all sales by Southcape Resort from Sept. 1, 2008 to present.  The only sales were to NEVS!


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> This is really odd.  I went to that site and asked a question about the property.  The answer is that it's "personal property" only and does not include the building and land.



This is the sum total property that the Denton, TX assessor's office has when you put "Outfield Marketing" in the "owner name" box. Gee, from the way Cliff and FestivaRep communicated, you think Outfield Marketing could claim somewhere north of $1,400 in personal property to establish some validity as Denton, TX based business. They talked like it was some big company that they "hired"....how do you hire $1,400 in personal property that does not even claim a building or land????


----------



## Sou13

No, $1,450 is the assessed value of the "personal property" only (leased equipment).  Outfield Marketing doesn't own the land and building.  It's owned by Major Leauge Development, Ltd and its assessed value is $172,466.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

*Festiva*

Sou13

I've been told that you have been making phone calls to try and find out if Festiva is paying their maintenance fees and special assessments.  I tried to call you earlier but there was no answer.

I've stated it before but I think it bears repeating.  *Festiva has paid all of their maintenance fees and special assessments. * If I can be of further help to you, please give me a call or email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com.  

Cliff


----------



## e.bram

How will Festiva keep paying it's MFa and SAs if members bail(with this economy and choice of off season dogs available to members) out. Will they pay all or a proportionate share?


----------



## Sou13

NEVMSLLC said:


> Sou13
> 
> I've been told that you have been making phone calls to try and find out if Festiva is paying their maintenance fees and special assessments.  I tried to call you earlier but there was no answer.
> 
> I've stated it before but I think it bears repeating.  *Festiva has paid all of their maintenance fees and special assessments. * If I can be of further help to you, please give me a call or email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com.
> 
> Cliff


I did try to answer twice but couldn't get to the telephone before the answering machine picked up and you hung up without leaving a message.  Very annoying.  Now that I'm letting the answering machine pick up I can interrupt and we can have a conversation.  With Verizon voicemail, if I couldn't get to the telephone by the 6th ring I was out of luck.

So now that you are publicly making me look as though I have no right to know whether Festiva is paying MFs and SAs I will publicly state why I want to know.  I have paid my MF in full and have paid 1/2 of the SA but 1/2 of the work has yet to be done.  Where is the money that has been required upfront from all deeded owners and FAC members?

I belive I made it clear to Trish at the Outfield Marketing office in Denton that my concern is for Southcape Resort and I want the truth, not spin.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sou13

I've always told you the truth and I've never even implied that you don't have a right to know if Festiva's paying their maintenance fees or not.  Further, I can't even begin to understand how a straight forward answer like "they're paying their fees" can be called "spin".  How do you come up with these interpretations?  If you have a question about maintenance fees, why are you calling Outfield marketing and not me or the resort?  You have our numbers.  I know you have my email.  The special assessment fees are kept in a reserve account.


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Sou13
> 
> I've always told you the truth...



Like when you said you did not infiltrate her private email list using the name "capeguitarguy" and I quote "I wouldn't be so obvious as to tell people I'm from the Cape and have a guitar!" perhaps forgetting you had a twitter account under your real name with that same name on it? And then the site owner posted this gem...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
added note...

capeguitarguy also registered from the same IP as massman631...

and also NEVMSLCC has also posted from that IP. (mass. comcast)
__________________
Brian Rogers - Owner
Timeshare Users Group

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=757791&postcount=803


----------



## e.bram

Away from the moral issue. All Southcape owners(especially prime weeks)should encourage other owner to join with Festiva. Then the TS less likely to be exposed to loss of MFs and SAs by owners abandoning their  weeks and cease paying their MFs and SAs, placing the burden on the remaining owners.


----------



## Sou13

e.bram,

I fail to follow your logic.  Festiva has to collect MFs from all club members, and the MF will continue to rise as resorts continue to levy special assessments.  Are you suggesting that deeded owners will be better off converting to Festiva points?  I really don't want to give you the space here because I don't want this to be bumped onto the next page.  There's important info about the $2.5 million mortgage on this page!

This discussion is about putting the brakes on the Festiva takeover, not converting Southcape Resort to Festiva points!


----------



## Sou13

*Septic system repairs, owners' advisory committee, etc.*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Sou13
> 
> I've always told you the truth and I've never even implied that you don't have a right to know if Festiva's paying their maintenance fees or not.  Further, I can't even begin to understand how a straight forward answer like "they're paying their fees" can be called "spin".  How do you come up with these interpretations?  If you have a question about maintenance fees, why are you calling Outfield marketing and not me or the resort?  You have our numbers.  I know you have my email.  The special assessment fees are kept in a reserve account.


If the special assessment fees are being kept in a reserve account and Festiva has been required to pay the special assessments for owners who converted before paying the $400 special assessment, then Festiva should be making noise about where the money they've paid is being kept and why it has not been used for the special projects, such as the septic system repairs, for which it was deemed necessary.  Have these repairs been made?  I'm waiting for a reply before contacting the resort with this question, and I refuse to email you because you claim that you have a right to keep email replies "confidential."

Furthermore, this is a question which needs a public answer because whoever hired you to "manage" the resort management and pay you more than $2000 a week to do so should be requiring you to make better use of your time than replying "confidentially" to private email.

Here are some more questions which need a public answer:

Whatever became of the "owners advisory committee" which you promised here publicly and at the owners' meeting in May?  Aren't they supposed to be meeting before the trustees meet to determine the MF for 2010 in October?  Or have they already met and is that also being kept "confidential"?

Who was keeping "minutes" at the meeting in May?  If you were clerk at the time, it should have been you.  But Elizabeth McNichols, attorney for the "developers" NEVS, has filed "under penalty of perjury" that she is the clerk and has been for the past three years!  Was Ms. McNichols present at the meeting?

Owners who were present at the meeting have vouched for me that the subject of an audit came up and a vote for an audit was taken, yet there is no mention of an audit or vote for one in the "meeting minutes" that unsuspecting owners have accepted as "truth"!  How do you account for this?

I'll leave it up to other owners to come forward with more questions which are in need of a public answer.


----------



## Sou13

*TimeSharing Today*

TimeSharing Today Magazine has been publishing since 1991 as an independent voice for the owner. It recently announced enhanced services to be more proactive in advocating for the owners on the issues that many are facing. TimeSharing Today has begun supporting us by publishing a Sandcastle owner's letter detailing the difficulties we are addressing and obtaining a response from the resort management. As we continue to seek greater owner control at our resort, TimeSharing Today will continue to support our efforts to create awareness. We ask that you show your support by subscribing to this important publication. Please use this link: https://tstoday.com/shop/freebonus.aspx?source=grp02


----------



## mweinberg

*An Open Letter to Cliff Hagberg*



NEVMSLLC said:


> I am no longer engaging in debate or dialogue in this forum.  It's pointless.  I will correct untruths that are posted here.  If you or any other owner would like answers to your questions, please email me at nevmsllc@gmail.com
> 
> Cliff



Cliff,

It's nice that you keep posting on here that owners are free to email you with their questions.  It would be even nicer if you'd actually answer those emails!  It seems that you are publicly expressing a desire for transparency and communication but behaving very differently in private.

Since you have chosen to ignore my last 2 private emails to you, perhaps you'd like to answer my questions within a more public forum.  My original email is reproduced below in its entirety.  

mweinberg

Dear Mr. Hagberg:

I find your response to the TimeSharing Today article to be quite interesting; however, it does raise some questions which I'm hoping you will address:

1.  You say in your response that you believe federal privacy laws prevent you from releasing a list of owners' names and contact information.  Those of us who have requested this information have been quite specific in providing a chapter-and-verse reference to Massachusetts General Law, Chapter 183B, Section 32, which we feel supports our request.  If you feel that there is some federal law which is in conflict with this, would you please provide a specific reference, including chapter and section, so that those of us who have requested the list can actually see the basis of your refusal.

2.  You state that Outfield Marketing "sells both weeks and a points program."  Why is it, then, that a search of Barnstable County real estate records show no such sales?

3. You also state that "Outfield is not taking ownership in any deeds."  Perhaps it is true that they are doing this only as an agent of Festiva Adventure Club, but the fact remains that people are being asked to give up their deeds, which are then held in trust for a period of 30 years, renewal for an additional 10 years, after which they revert, I assume, either to NEVS or to Festiva.  So in fact, Outfield, either on their own behalf or as an agent for Festiva, most certainly IS taking ownership in deeds.

4. I don't understand how you can "categorically deny the allegations of high pressure sales tactics, threats, lies and half truths."  You have admitted to these high pressure sales tactics in your meeting with me at the Sandcastle and in posts on TUG BBS, where you say that you are aware of these tactics and violations and that sales staff are being dealt with appropriately.  Further, you admitted in our meeting that many of the things that I had been told by Outfield, including dire warnings about annual increases of 26% in maintenance fees and annual assessment exceeding $1500 for at least the next 5 years were untrue statements.  I could give you more examples, but I'm sure that you know just the lies I am referring to.

5.  You state that "the members of this group that sent you this article have continually refused to meet . . . to address their concerns."  In fact, members of this group have agreed to meet with you, but we have pointed out that it would not be convenient for such a meeting to occur on Cape Cod.  We have also requested that a representative of our group be seated on your hand-picked, top-secret advisory committee, and you categorically denied our request.

I'd appreciate your addressing these inconsistencies, both with me and with the people at TimeSharing Today.

Sincerely,

Michael Weinberg


----------



## Sou13

*Send comments to TimeSharing Today*

I hope you sent a copy of the above to staff@tstoday.com!


----------



## mweinberg

Sou13 said:


> I hope you sent a copy of the above to staff@tstoday.com!



I will.  I'm still trying to give Cliff the benefit of the doubt.  Perhaps he's been too busy to answer me.


----------



## Classylassy523

mweinberg said:


> I will.  I'm still trying to give Cliff the benefit of the doubt.  Perhaps he's been too busy to answer me.



Like he has been too busy to answer the 3+ letters and 1 email I have sent him dating back to August.


----------



## Sou13

*Ocean Club at Atlantic Beach*

Today I received my maintenance fee billing for 2010 from the Ocean Club at Atlantic Beach, my other "resort owned" as listed in my profile.  Here are some highlights of the letter accompanying the enclosed MF assessment:


The maintenance fee has been increased by only $15 over the previous year, which is less than a 5% increase.  The management takes pride in keeping the MF to one of if not THE lowest in the industry.

A letter detailed all of the improvements that have been accomplished without any special assessments or MF increase of more than 5%.

A copy of the Annual Operating Budget was enclosed for my records.

A copy of the calendars for the next four years was enclosed in order for Flexible Use Period owners to reserve weeks for 2010.
NEVMSLLC please take notice!


----------



## Sou13

*Good words for Southcape Resort*

An Interval International member who exchanged a week and was able to stay in a loft unit at Southcape has some positive words about the resort:

*"We are happy with Southcape. Our unit is clean and spacious. The fixtures are dated (e.g., blue tub and sink). But we know we are not in Orlando. We are so lucky to get this exchange. My sister has confirmed a unit at the Brairwoood for the same week last year. We did not firm up our summer schedule until this spring. I put in a request with II for only this one week and got Southcape. 

"The kids loved the loft. Their cousin came and one of them had to sleep in between the two beds. No one wants to be on the sofa bed. We love the smaller resort feel. We feel safe to let the kids out by themselves to play outside. 

"We drove a lot to see different places. The location is great for our first trip since we would not sit and relax any way."*
http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=802596&postcount=14

I hope that all this furor over the NEVS/Festiva takeover hasn't brought too much negative attention to Southcape Resort.  Rather, I hope it has inspired deeded owners to sit up and take action to *retain ownership* of Southcape!

From the time that I began posting to this topic in February I have never meant to malign the resort itself.  That's why I'm still here posting to this discussion!


----------



## Sou13

*Included in check-in packet*

*Southcape Resort & Club* 
*950 Falmouth Road, Mashpee, MA 02649
Tel: 5084774700 *
*Owner services: ext. 132*​
These are exciting times at the SouthCape Resort. Your new management team is dedicated to enhancing your vacation experience and keeping you informed with relevant information affecting your vacation ownership. 

This is particularly true during this time in the history of SouthCape Resort. Many owners have contacted us with questions or opinions on issues affecting their ownership. We welcome this dialogue which is important to keeping you informed and to dispel any misinformation that may exist. 

During your stay at the resort I urge you to contact our owner services department with any questions or concerns.

Sincerely,

Cliff Hagberg

President, NEVMS LLC


----------



## Classylassy523

*Letter from CAC, Inc.*

I have received a letter from Paul Schrader, Executive Director of the Consumer Assistance Council, Inc. (CAC), Hyannis, MA. I quote:

Dear Ms. Gallant,

I am writing in response to the complaint you filed with the Massachusetts Attorney General's Office against Sandcastle Resort/Festiva/Outfield marketing. Your complaint was sent to the Cape Cod Consumer Assistance Council (CAC) to attempt mediation.

Despite our efforts, the CAC was unable to resolve your complaint through mediation. I have been asked to return Sandcastle Resort complaints to the Attorney General's Office for further review and consideration.

The Attorney General's staff may be back in touch with you if they require additional information. We understand that this is a difficult issue and we appreciate your bringing your concerns to our attention.

Sincerely,
Paul Schrader
Executive Director

One thing that has either been omitted, overlooked in the writing of this letter, or not included are our complaints against NEVS LLC and NEVMS LLC. Now the CAC and/or the AGs office may be including them under the Sandcastle Resort name but I raise the question because I never filed a complaint against the Sandcastle Resort. I consider the resort itself separate from NEVS and NEVSMS about whom I filed complaints. 

My concerns now are that these complaints will get lost in the AG's office ... stuffed into a box, desk drawer or file cabinet ... and nothing will come of all our pleas for help.

I am asking that everyone who filed complaints and others who are sympathetic to our cause write the Massachusetts Attorney General and encourage them, demand, plea, or beg those who have received our documents do something to stop the travesty that is going on at the Sandcastle and Southcape resorts. 

The address is:
Massachusetts Attorny General
One Ashburton Place
Boston, MA 02108

In your letters please refer to the complaints filed by deeded owners and former deeded owners of timeshare intervals at Sandcastle Resort, Provincetown, MA and Southcape Resort, Mashpee, MA

There are many owners who are appreciative of any support and assistance others can provide us.


----------



## Sou13

*Report from owners*

I received a report from owners who took the bait (a Visa gift card) and met with Frank in "Owner Services" for 2 1/2 hours recently.  Here are some interesting "updates" they received:

First, there is a new parking pass system. You receive a pass for your dashboard window for your numbered parking spot. The second car in your party receives a pass for a guest spot. If you have more than two cars, you receive a pass to park in the parking lot upfront. The parking passes are given out by Frank Rose, who is the new Owner Services Department. He was hired 7 months ago and lives at Unit 33, with his office at Unit 32. According to Frank, the parking pass system was implemented because of complaints from owners of their parking spaces being taken. It also enables Southcape to know which cars belong on the property.

In addition to giving you your parking passes upon check-in, he also sets up a meeting with you to tell you what has been done at the resort with your maintenance fees and assessment fees.  Here's what these owners were told:

NEVS owns 500 weeks that are not sold.
450 owners have defaulted and NEVS has begun putting liens on their property.

There will be no assessment fee in 2010. However, they (these owners) did not ask whether there will be an increase in maintenance fees for 2010. 

Owner Advisory Council will not be meeting until the first of the year. This means we will not get a look at the 2010 budget or have any input before it goes before the Board of Trustees.

According to Frank, Cliff is a "junior partner" in NEVS. There are three other partners. One of them worked for the government as head of the department that deals with condo regulations.

Frank also said that Barnstable County inspectors gave them extended time on the septic because they saw how much work NEVS had to do to the units (i.e. roofing, shingles, trim, rotted wood). The inspectors were impressed that they were getting the work done and rewarded them with an extension on getting the septic done right away. No mention on where the assessment money we paid this year for the septic went.

The cost to switch over to points will be going up in November. Frank strongly encourages week owners to switch to points because it is to their advantage since there is no deed involved. He gave an example of parents dying and kids being left with their deeded week and having to pay maintenance fess on them. With points, if you don't keep up on fees, they revert back to NEVS and you owe nothing. He also said points are the way of the future!

He did acknowledge firings at Sandcastle. The manager and the maintenance person "because he was always sleeping."

He also mentioned about the 35 timeshare owners at Southcape and Sandcastle who are "stirring things up." He claims the AG threw out the complaint from Sandcastle. He also questioned who was going to pay for legal fees for an attorney to take the case. 

Frank said they are trying to explain to as many owners as they can about the point system because Outfield Marketing might not have gotten to visit them at their home or they misunderstood it.


----------



## Sou13

*Owners' Advisory Committee?*



Classylassy523 said:


> The Sandcastle OAC met on September 26th at the Sandcastle.  From what I understand there were 6 chosen members and 3 physically attended the meeting and 1 attended via computer (like a net meeting, I think), and 2 were 'no shows'.  We have had a couple of reports .. not too much for 2010 was reviewed as far as I could read ... it was more questions from the owners and answers from Cliff and Tom Franks of Outfield Marketing (both are on the Board of Trustees).
> 
> Following is a report that was sent to our owners e-list:
> 
> Board of Trustees Members Present…Cliff Hagberg, Tom Franks(also Outfield Marketing Partner)
> 
> Owners present…Marie Caniglia-Robiolio, Chuck Hazard, Ernie Pergano, Paul Lehrman present via webcam/video conference on laptop…two other owners dropped out.
> 
> 
> My questions are italicized.  Both Cliff and Tom gave answers to the questions.  I did not indiacte who answered what in many cases.
> 
> 
> _Why did you fail to give the owner’s list to owners who asked to see it?_
> Cliff’s response was that there are two conflicting laws…one stating we the owners have a right to see the list and the other is the Privacy Act stating it is illegal to give out private information.
> 
> 
> Cliff’s attorneys said he would be/ could be sued either way.  If he doesn’t give it up he could be sued by the owners for not complying with the law requiring him to do so or he could be sued by someone who got hurt because of the information he gave out.  There is a liability here because privacy is compromised.  He was advised by his lawyer not to give it out because there is a greater liability in this situation.  Someone could be stalked, hurt in some way, bothered by someone who got a hold of that list.  He stated it is a responsibility as a trustee to reduce liability and that meant not giving out the owners’ private information.  He did state the privacy law number but I was unable to write the number down.  Anyone can look it up.
> 
> 
> _Did you know there was a deficit when you purchased the inventory?_  They knew there was a deficit but had no idea it was so huge.
> 
> _You didn’t get a reduced price from the old Trustees on the inventory you bought because of the deficit or the condition of the resort did you?_  They laughed…NOOO
> 
> 
> _Why the 26% increase in the 2009 maintenance fees? _ To cover all the expenses and balance the budget except for the $350,000 shortfall which would be covered by the assessment.
> 
> 
> The budget is now balanced.
> 
> 
> _Do you anticipate the maintenance fees will go up annually?_  Yes, because all things get more expensive each year, but will not go up anywhere near 26%
> 
> 
> _Will all financial records be available for owners to view? _Yes, on an individual basis, just call the office and let them know in advance when you are coming.
> 
> 
> _Will you be going after owners who do not pay their Maintenace fees and assessments?_  Yes, they will go after all the money first, then try for half.  If they are unable to get anything, and since it is too expensive to forclose, they will go after it by something called “Entry and Possession”  They will go in the room the week the owner is supposed to be there and follow a certain procedure which I will have to get more info on.  I didn’t write it all down and I can’t remember the procedure but ultimately the title will revert back to the association.  The week can then be sold and it’s the association’s money.
> 
> 
> _Cliff, did you pay your maintenance fees on your personal week?_  No, I was unaware that I didn’t pay it until Debbie told me I didn’t pay them this year.
> 
> _How could you let that happen?_  It just slipped my mind.
> 
> _Do you plan on paying them? And any late fee?_  yes
> 
> _And are you going to pay the assessment?_ yes
> 
> 
> _Cliff did you convert your week to points?_ No
> 
> _Do you plan on it?_ No, I have RCI points.
> 
> 
> _Will you be taking weeks back?_ If all maintenance fees are paid and there are extenuating circumstances they will consider it.  The title will revert back to the association.  They generally will not take weeks back.
> 
> 
> _If the developer has a week for rent and an owner has a week they want the resort to rent…who gets priority?_  The developer’s week will get priority because all the money from developer’s weeks that are rented goes to the association as per developer agreement.
> 
> 
> The 25% fee that the resort charges to rent an owner’s week also goes to the association as per developer agreement.
> 
> 
> _I asked about a trust issue we could possibly have since all this is going on?  How will we, the owners know that all income is being reported, especially owners’ weeks that are left to be rented out by the resort?  They could potentially be occupied by outfield sales people or free night promotional give aways.  How will the owners ever know.? _ It is a trust issue and there has to be some amount of trust.  Plus there are maid reports and registry documents that can be seen, and there is always a chance an owner will call their room on their week to be rented and if someone answers the phone after they were told its not been rented…well there is going to trouble and they/ NEVS doesn’t need that or want that trouble.
> 
> 
> _Well you do know there are big trust issues right now, so trust is hard at this point. You understand?_ Yes but we have nothing to hide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ********_Why doesn’t the developer pay fees and assessments on his unsold inventory? _The prior developers didn’t .
> 
> _So what does that have to do with you as the developer now…_ The bank would not finance the deal unless the declarent was not responsible for the maintenance fees.
> 
> ********This is one of the issues that I need to get clarification on.  I am not satisfied with their answer at this time and Cliff had issues about discussing it.
> 
> 
> Questions about Festiva
> 
> 
> _Does/Will Festiva pay maintenance fees and assessment?_   Yes
> 
> _Will Festiva have voting rights to the units they hold deeds to?_  Yes
> 
> _Can/will Festiva have control if they get 51% of the resort?_  Yes, but it is virtually impossible for Festiva to get 51% based upon the fact that there are 4000 owners. That would mean more than half would have to turn over their weeks.  And they also can not take over no matter what percentage they own as long a NEVS is the developer, for contractual reasons.
> 
> 
> Cliff and Tom both said there won’t be any issues if the owners make sure they all vote.
> 
> 
> _I mentioned about the lack of trust we have at this point and not having transparency…
> 
> I said there needs to be a way to show that you NEVS/Outfield have nothing to hide.  Wouldn’t it be a smart thing to do to let one of the owners be on the Board of Trustees?_ Cliff and Tom made a call to another Trustee and decided it would be a good idea to have the owners elects one owner to be on the Board of Trustees.
> 
> 
> Cliff and Tom will soon be sending out notices stating the duties and responsibilities of the Trustee and will ask for candidates to submit resumes for owners to review and then an election will be held.  Details will follow.
> 
> 
> 
> Questions about Outfield Marketing
> 
> 
> _I mentioned to Tom Franks who is not only a Board of Trustee member, but he is one of the 3 partners in Outfield, that there were so many issues with Outfield and that the owners had been told such as outright lies. I listed several which were told to me directly._  He said he was unaware of the complaints as he had not heard from any owners.  He did say that some of the original sales people that went to people’s homes were fired for various reasons.  Please call them with any Outfield issues.
> 
> 
> _Is Outfield getting paid by Festiva to sell points? _Tom was evasive but I believe after I asked several times he finally said yes.
> 
> ********_I asked how much Outfield got out of the $3000 that Festiva charges?_  NEVS gets about 50%
> 
> ********_So what does Sandcastle get out of it?_  We get maintenance fee paying owners.
> 
> ********I have issues with this answer.  Not too happy about it.
> 
> 
> _Where do the Outfield salespeople stay when here at the resort? _ In developer units, however, if they stay in an owners rooms they will pay for it.
> 
> _Does Outfield pay for expenses? _Yes, they even have a separate phone bill that they pay but they also have an agreement with the developer.
> 
> 
> 
> _Cliff is any member of your family involved in the renovations?_  No
> 
> _But doesn’t your brother work here as a maintenance man?_ Yes, but not on renovations
> 
> 
> _I did mention the fact that Cliff himself said his brother was a master carpenter and that Cliff said his brother was going to do some work on cabinets and furniture to save the resort some money._  Cliff agreed with that statement.
> 
> 
> _I asked about the annex and I asked if the rooms there were going to be rented and how much we could expect_…Cliff said that he expects $50,000 -$70,000 per year. About $65 per night. The rents go to the association.
> 
> 
> 
> _I asked if the rooms were going to be used as free promo nights for outfield marketing ?_ yes they could be and if they were Outfield would pay for the rooms out of their pockets.
> 
> 
> Cliff will be choosing two additional people to be on the advisory board.  It will meet about 4 times a year.  More details to follow.
> 
> 
> _I had a question about the assessment fees_…if you agreed to pay installments and you are late a few days, they will not charge a late fee and void the installment deal.
> 
> 
> _Cliff did say that if anyone put anything on their check such as “paying under protest” the checks will be returned as funds not available or something to that effect. And he will then charge you a late fee.  There is no escrow fund and the demand letters according to Cliff do not mean a thing. _
> 
> 
> _Cliff and Tom did say that some financial issues and other issues are developer issues and have nothing to do with the association. _
> 
> 
> I hope I did not leave anything out.  If I did I will send the additional notes.


http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=801803&postcount=128

Here's what the Master Deed (BOOK 3526 PAGE 112) has to say about the Trustees:

Section 3.1. There shall be at all times Trustees as shall be determined from time to time by vote of the Unit Owners entitled to not less than fifty-one percent (51%) of the beneficial interest hereunder. Provided that: (a) so long as the Declarant of the Master Deed recorded herewith, or its successor, owns fifty-one percent (51%) or more of the beneficial interest hereunder, the number of trustees shall be three (3), and it shall be entitled to appoint two (2) of said trustees; *(b) so long as the Declarant or its successor owns ten percent (10%) or more of said beneficial interest, it shall be entitled to select at least one trustee;* and (c) when unit owners other than the Declarant or its successor own fifteen percent (15%) or more of the beneficial interest, they shall be entitled to elect at least one trustee. If and whenever the number of trustees shall become less than the number of trustees last determined aforesaid, a vacancy or vacancies in said office shall be deemed to exist. A vacancy in the Board of Trustees occurring between annual meetings of unit owners which is not filled by said unit owners within sixty (60) days, shall be filled by a majority vote of the remaining trustees, subject to the rights reserved by Declarant hereinabove. Such appointment shall become effective upon the recording with the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds of a certificate of such appointment signed by a majority of the then-remaining Trustee or Trustees, together with acceptance, and such person shall then be and become such Trustee and shall be vested with the title to the trust property jointly with the remaining or surviving Trustee or Trustees without the necessity of any act of transfer or conveyance. If for any reason any vacancy in the office of Trustee shall continue for more than thirty (30) days and if such vanancy shall not be filled in the manner above provided, a Trustee or Trustees to fill such vacancy or vacancies may be appointed by. a courtt of competent Jurlsdiction. Tne foregolng provlslons of thls sectlon nothithstanding, despite any vacancy in the office of Trustees, however caused and for whatever duration, the remaining or surviving Trustees, subject to the provisions of the immediately following Section, shall continue to exercise and discharge all of the powers, discretions and duties hereby conferred or imposed upon the Trustees.

Nowhere in the Master Deed or the Deed to NEVS
Bk-Pg:23138-109    Recorded: 09-04-2008 @ 3:44:18pm  Inst #: 46644  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 76 
Grp: 1 
Type: Deed  Doc$: 1,200,000.00 
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 

Gtor: BARTH, VINCENT J (AS ID AS TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: WOODS, ROBERT P (AS ID AS TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: ACQUISITIONS INC (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: JEC PROPERTIES INC (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SAND CASTLE NOMINEE TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: ROYAL COACHMAN CONDOMINUM TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SAND CASTLE CONDOMINIUM TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

 Return addr:  DUNNING KIRRANE MCNICHOLS & GARNER LLP 
  REGISTRY BOX # 9 
  P. O. BOX 560 
  MASHPEE, MA 02649 

Recording Fee: 100.00 State excise: 6,840.00 Surcharge: 25.00​can I find any reason for NEVS to be installing 5 members on the Board of Trustees.


----------



## ecwinch

Does NEVS control enough summer inventory to allow Frank to occupy unit 32 and 33? Or will they vacate those units during peak season?


----------



## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> I received a report from owners who took the bait (a Visa gift card) and met with Frank in "Owner Services" for 2 1/2 hours recently.  Here are some interesting "updates" they received:
> 
> First, there is a new parking pass system. You receive a pass for your dashboard window for your numbered parking spot. The second car in your party receives a pass for a guest spot. If you have more than two cars, you receive a pass to park in the parking lot upfront. The parking passes are given out by Frank Rose, who is the new Owner Services Department. He was hired 7 months ago and lives at Unit 33, with his office at Unit 32. According to Frank, the parking pass system was implemented because of complaints from owners of their parking spaces being taken. It also enables Southcape to know which cars belong on the property.
> 
> In addition to giving you your parking passes upon check-in, he also sets up a meeting with you to tell you what has been done at the resort with your maintenance fees and assessment fees.  Here's what these owners were told:
> 
> NEVS owns 500 weeks that are not sold.
> 450 owners have defaulted and NEVS has begun putting liens on their property.
> 
> There will be no assessment fee in 2010. However, they (these owners) did not ask whether there will be an increase in maintenance fees for 2010.
> 
> Owner Advisory Council will not be meeting until the first of the year. This means we will not get a look at the 2010 budget or have any input before it goes before the Board of Trustees.
> 
> According to Frank, Cliff is a "junior partner" in NEVS. There are three other partners. One of them worked for the government as head of the department that deals with condo regulations.
> 
> Frank also said that Barnstable County inspectors gave them extended time on the septic because they saw how much work NEVS had to do to the units (i.e. roofing, shingles, trim, rotted wood). The inspectors were impressed that they were getting the work done and rewarded them with an extension on getting the septic done right away. No mention on where the assessment money we paid this year for the septic went.
> 
> The cost to switch over to points will be going up in November. Frank strongly encourages week owners to switch to points because it is to their advantage since there is no deed involved. He gave an example of parents dying and kids being left with their deeded week and having to pay maintenance fess on them. With points, if you don't keep up on fees, they revert back to NEVS and you owe nothing. He also said points are the way of the future!
> 
> He did acknowledge firings at Sandcastle. The manager and the maintenance person "because he was always sleeping."
> 
> He also mentioned about the 35 timeshare owners at Southcape and Sandcastle who are "stirring things up." He claims the AG threw out the complaint from Sandcastle. He also questioned who was going to pay for legal fees for an attorney to take the case.
> 
> Frank said they are trying to explain to as many owners as they can about the point system because Outfield Marketing might not have gotten to visit them at their home or they misunderstood it.


I'm wondering why we had to ante up $90,000 or be locked out of our units for septic repairs that don't have to be done right away.


----------



## Sou13

*Mortgage update*

Bk-Pg:23138-185    Recorded: 09-04-2008 @ 3:44:18pm  Inst #: 46645  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 82 
Grp: 1 
Type: Mortgage  Doc$: 2,500,000.00 
Desc: SEE INSTRUMENT 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Town: PROVINCETOWN  Addr: ROUTE 6A 
Gtor: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor) 
Gtee: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtee) 

Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-176 
Ref By: 03-18-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 23537-181 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-114 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-118 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-122 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-126 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-130 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-134 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-138 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-142 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-146 
Ref By: 09-15-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24034-150 
Ref By: 10-16-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24100-69 
Ref By: 10-16-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24100-71 
Ref By: 10-16-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24100-73 
Ref By: 10-16-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24100-75 
Ref By: 10-16-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24100-77 
Ref By: 10-16-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24100-79 
Ref By: 10-16-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24100-81 
Ref By: 10-16-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24100-83 
Ref By: 10-16-2009 Partial Discharge In book: 24100-85 

 Return addr:  DUNNING KIRRANE MCNICHOLS & GARNER LLP 
  REGISTRY BOX # 9 
  P. O. BOX 560 
  MASHPEE, MA 02649 

Recording Fee: 150.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00

NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 504 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-114     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 504 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-116     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 510 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-118     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 510 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-120     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 408 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-122     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 408 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-124     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 601 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-126     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 601 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-128     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 501 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-130     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 501 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-132     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 605 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-134     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 605 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-136     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 606 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-138     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 606 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-140     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 503 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-142     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 503 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
09-15-2009 24034-144     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 32 TIME 1
Partial Discharge Mashpee
09-15-2009 24034-146     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 32 TIME 1
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-15-2009 24034-148     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 37 TIME 24
Partial Discharge Mashpee
09-15-2009 24034-150     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 37 TIME 24
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-15-2009 24034-152     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 10 TIME 50
Partial Discharge Mashpee
10-16-2009 24100-69     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 47 TIME 11
Partial Discharge Mashpee
10-16-2009 24100-71     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 406 TIME 10
Partial Discharge Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-73     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 409 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-75     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 17 TIME 53
Partial Discharge Mashpee
10-16-2009 24100-77     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 414 TIME 10
Partial Discharge Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-79     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 403 TIME 9
Partial Discharge Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-81     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 503 TIME 10
Partial Discharge Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-83     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 407 TIME 10
Partial Discharge Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-85     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 10 TIME 50
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
10-16-2009 24100-87     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 47 TIME 11
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
10-16-2009 24100-89     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 409 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-91     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 406 TIME 10
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-93     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 17 TIME 53
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
10-16-2009 24100-95     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 414 TIME 10
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-97     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 403 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-99     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 503 TIME 10
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-101     
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCR (AS TR) UNIT 407 TIME 10
Time Sharing Deed Provincetown
10-16-2009 24100-103


----------



## Sou13

It appears to me that the above weeks that have been deeded to Festiva are delinquent in MFs and SAs for 2009.  That comes to more than $20,000.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sou13 said:


> It appears to me that the above weeks that have been deeded to Festiva are delinquent in MFs and SAs for 2009.  That comes to more than $20,000.



Once again, that's simply not true


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> It appears to me that the above weeks that have been deeded to Festiva are delinquent in MFs and SAs for 2009.  That comes to more than $20,000.



Just wondering out loud here. The default rate on points must be pretty high....afterall, you don't even have a deed or a confirmed week and resorts are chasing down deeded week owners for non-payment, if they can find them...and even if they find them they don't always get payment. If the owner fails to pay Festiva is Festiva still bound to pay Southcape? Does Festiva get to give back weeks for non-payment to the property or do they have to pay forever?


----------



## Classylassy523

*They sell to others*



Fig said:


> Just wondering out loud here. The default rate on points must be pretty high....afterall, you don't even have a deed or a confirmed week and resorts are chasing down deeded week owners for non-payment, if they can find them...and even if they find them they don't always get payment. If the owner fails to pay Festiva is Festiva still bound to pay Southcape? Does Festiva get to give back weeks for non-payment to the property or do they have to pay forever?



What happens is that Festiva will attempt to sell points to other people.  Terry, the trainee, when asked about availability of weeks and said they don't sell weeks, they sell points, provided a price of $12,000.00 to purchase enough points for one week in the fall and maybe a weekend some other time (if the person was able to get reservations) at the Sandcastle.  Don't know what that amount of money would buy at other resorts.  And that was for 30 years with the person paying maintenance fees or membership fees annually.  I guess they wouldn't be paying maintenance fees because they wouldn't be associated with a particular resort, so the term 'membership fees' would suffice.  It seemed to me to be a very grey area, lots of smoke and mirrors.
Festiva or the trust fund is the deeded owner so they would be required to pay the MFs and SAs, but whether they do or not is another grey area ... no available information is forthcoming from management.  Well, we are told they do, but have no ability to see it in black and white within the accounting program.


----------



## e.bram

you have to sue and find out during the discovery phase.


----------



## Fig

Classylassy523 said:


> Terry, the trainee, when asked about availability of weeks and said they don't sell weeks, they sell points, provided a price of $12,000.00 to purchase enough points for one week in the fall and maybe a weekend some other time (if the person was able to get reservations) at the Sandcastle.



Gotta love how they inflate the value of what they are trying to sell. Someone might want to bring their laptop to one of these little meetings show Terry what the real value of a week at Sandcastle is currently selling for...and that is deeded. Points...I don't even think they can get a buck for them.


----------



## Sou13

*What's "simply" not true?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Once again, that's simply not true


Here's what's not true, but it's *NOT* "simply":

It's *true* that NEVMS did not pay MFs or SAs for any of these weeks.  What's *not* true is that Festiva owes MFs and SAs for 2009 for all 21 of these weeks.  The reason for this is that only two of these weeks can still be used by the FAC in 2009.

One interesting note about the Southcape weeks is that one of them is for the unit currently occupied by Outfield Marketing:

COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO *UNIT 32* TIME 1
Partial Discharge Mashpee
09-15-2009 24034-146 
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI *UNIT 32* TIME 1
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-15-2009 24034-148

This is a *maintenance week*.

Since Outfield Marketing has had exclusive use of units 32 and 33 since at least November 2008, and since rentals for NEVS are supposed to be assigned to the Community Association, NEVS *should* have been paying seasonal weekly rental rates for both of these units.  I use the word *should* because NEVS *claims* to have "developer rights" which seem to *appear* to NEVS to mean that the "develper" has the right to use certain units or space for "sales"!

Here's another whopping outrageous statistic:

To date more than 700 Southcape and Sandcastle weeks have been converted to the FAC.  At approximately $3000 per week, that means that Outfield Marketing has raked in more than $2.1 *million* in "conversion" fees.  Of that, 1/2 has gone to Outfield Marketing, which means that by this time the $1.2 million for the two resorts has been nearly if not entirely recouped.

I know NEVMSLLC will probably claim that this, too, is not true, or be too busy strumming his guitar.  (Have you listened to those guys?  They sound like a buncha drunks!)


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Hey Sou13

I've gotten used to your lies, misstatements and untruths about NEVS, Festiva and the like but when you call a fine band like mine a bunch of drunks . . . 

Now we're getting personal!  :0


----------



## Carolinian

Sounds like owners need to file a corporate derivative suit against NEVS to recover this rental income for those two units. This is just piracy.





Sou13 said:


> Here's what's not true, but it's *NOT* "simply":
> 
> It's *true* that NEVMS did not pay MFs or SAs for any of these weeks.  What's *not* true is that Festiva owes MFs and SAs for 2009 for all 21 of these weeks.  The reason for this is that only two of these weeks can still be used by the FAC in 2009.
> 
> One interesting note about the Southcape weeks is that one of them is for the unit currently occupied by Outfield Marketing:
> 
> COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO *UNIT 32* TIME 1
> Partial Discharge Mashpee
> 09-15-2009 24034-146
> NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
> INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI *UNIT 32* TIME 1
> Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
> 09-15-2009 24034-148
> 
> This is a *maintenance week*.
> 
> Since Outfield Marketing has had exclusive use of units 32 and 33 since at least November 2008, and since rentals for NEVS are supposed to be assigned to the Community Association, NEVS *should* have been paying seasonal weekly rental rates for both of these units.  I use the word *should* because NEVS *claims* to have "developer rights" which seem to *appear* to NEVS to mean that the "develper" has the right to use certain units or space for "sales"!
> 
> Here's another whopping outrageous statistic:
> 
> To date more than 700 Southcape and Sandcastle weeks have been converted to the FAC.  At approximately $3000 per week, that means that Outfield Marketing has raked in more than $2.1 *million* in "conversion" fees.  Of that, 1/2 has gone to Outfield Marketing, which means that by this time the $1.2 million for the two resorts has been nearly if not entirely recouped.
> 
> I know NEVMSLLC will probably claim that this, too, is not true, or be too busy strumming his guitar.  (Have you listened to those guys?  They sound like a buncha drunks!)


----------



## NEVMSLLC

It's not piracy, Carolinian, it's just ignorance of the facts and a perfect example of how far out the wild speculations, rumors and half truths can get.  If it weren't for the fact that some owners might actually believe some of the stuff that's posted on here it would be laughable.

NEVS owns ALL of the weeks in units 32 and 33!!  No weeks were ever sold in either of the units.  That's the fact.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Excuse me, did I understand you correctly?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> It's not piracy, Carolinian, it's just ignorance of the facts and a perfect example of how far out the wild speculations, rumors and half truths can get.  If it weren't for the fact that some owners might actually believe some of the stuff that's posted on here it would be laughable.
> 
> NEVS owns ALL of the weeks in units 32 and 33!!  No weeks were ever sold in either of the units.  That's the fact.



Cliff,

Am I understanding your statement (in red) that no weeks of 32 or 33 have been sold?  None?  No even a single one?

Can you clarify what this is, then?  

NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)
COLEBROOK FINANCIAL CO UNIT 32 TIME 1
Partial Discharge Mashpee
09-15-2009 24034-146 
NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtor)
INTERCITY ESCROW SERVI UNIT 32 TIME 1
Time Sharing Deed Mashpee
09-15-2009 24034-148 

Does the Registry have the listing incorrect?  Is the week incorrect?  Is this some other location?  Does NEVS own other property that the owners at Southcape and Sandcastle don't know about?

You were so forceful with your statement ... about it being a FACT.  I am trying with due diligence to give you the benefit of the doubt, and know that mistakes can be made, even by public servants in the Barnstable Registry of Deeds.  If that is the case then you might want to notify them of this gross error.  If not, then maybe you can explain the difference between what you stated as a FACT and what is in the records at the Registry.

Thanks in advance for your clarification.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

When NEVS purchased the inventory, none of the weeks in those units were sold and the units were wholly owned by NEVS.  It is clearly stated in the deed.  Everything owned by NEVS is a matter of public record.  As NEVS has told all the owners, NEVS goal is to sell all their weeks.  The first sales in those units took place last summer and the deeds are now being recorded as the sales close.  You have identified one of those weeks that was recently sold by NEVS.  Those units have been sitting there unsold by the previous developer for more than twenty years.


----------



## Classylassy523

NEVMSLLC said:


> When NEVS purchased the inventory, none of the weeks in those units were sold and the units were wholly owned by NEVS.  It is clearly stated in the deed.  Everything owned by NEVS is a matter of public record.  As NEVS has told all the owners, NEVS goal is to sell all their weeks.  The first sales in those units took place last summer and the deeds are now being recorded as the sales close.  You have identified one of those weeks that was recently sold by NEVS.  Those units have been sitting there unsold by the previous developer for more than twenty years.



But, Cliff, you said that NONE of them had been sold and that was a FACT ... now you are saying that there have been sales.  And, are those sales to Festiva via Intercity Escrow?  Am I mistaken?  Or, is Colebrook Financial and Intercity just intermediate steps inbetween the deed being registered in the actual name of the buyer?  Or, is Festiva and/or FAC the actual owner of this unit?

Why is that anything that involves either of these resorts, NEVS, NEVMS, Outfield Marketing, Festiva Resorts and FAC is convoluted and twisted so much that you need to be an expert at untying knots to figure it out?


----------



## JackB62

*Classic shell game?*

That's what it sounds like to me...


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Classy

Let's not forget the original criticism which was about NEVS keeping a sales office etc. at the resort without paying rent.  All I did was point out that NEVS keeps a sales office in a unit that they own entirely which is not at all inappropriate.

Now you're asking questions about deeding process, partial releases, assignments and other conveyancing issues which is not a problem, it's all public record.  The problem has been the misunderstandings of the public record that has been posted on here by you and others.  

It seems that, when there's something you don't understand, the automatic assumption is that it must be illegal, underhanded or even criminal.  Nothing could be further from the truth and the truth is right there for everyone to see in the Registry of Deeds.  Any attorney, title examiner and even a real estate broker could tell you what it means with no effort at all.  

But when you refer to the legal process as "convoluted and twisted so much that you need to be an expert at untying knots to figure it out", you mischaracterize the whole process.  You're not an attorney and shouldn't be expected to understand all of the issues involved.  I wonder why, when you don't understand something, you don't ask an attorney to explain it to you instead of defaming everything and everyone.

And you're not alone, JackB62 just did the same thing by referring to it as a "Classic shell game".  It's always difficult to try and explain things to people who's minds are already made up.  More than that, it's typically a useless effort.  When I see those types of things posted on here and the attacks on me personally, do you really wonder why I don't bother responding anymore?  Treat me respectfully and I'm happy to reciprocate.


----------



## ChrisH

*Sold Units - SANDCASTLE*

This should really be in the Sandcastle forum for these particular units, however the discussion seems to be here so I will ask this question here:

All these Sandcastle Units were 'sold' by NEVS but the buyer in every case is Intercity Escrow Services, Trustee for Festiva Resorts LLC and Festiva Adventure Club.  None sold by NEVS LLC went to individuals that I can find. Only to Intercity and Festiva.  

So are these units being offered to owners or individuals, visitors for promotions etc.  or all they all being 'given' 'transferred' or however it's done, to Festiva/Intercity for $1.00 as listed on the deeds??? 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 2C TIME 32
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
09-02-2009	24009-195 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 504 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
09-15-2009	24034-116 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 510 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
09-15-2009	24034-120 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 408 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
09-15-2009	24034-124 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 601 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
09-15-2009	24034-128 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 501 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
09-15-2009	24034-132 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 605 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
09-15-2009	24034-136 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 606 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
09-15-2009	24034-140 


INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 503 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
09-15-2009	24034-144

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (AS TR) (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 409 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
10-16-2009	24100-91 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (AS TR) (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 406 TIME 10
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
10-16-2009	24100-93 


INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (AS TR) (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 414 TIME 10
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
10-16-2009	24100-97 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (AS TR) (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 403 TIME 9
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
10-16-2009	24100-99 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (AS TR) (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 503 TIME 10
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
10-16-2009	24100-101 

INTERCITY ESCROW SERVICES (AS TR) (Gtee)
NEW ENGLAND VACATION S	UNIT 407 TIME 10
Time Sharing Deed	Provincetown
10-16-2009	24100-103

Thanks
Chris


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Chris

Those are weeks that were sold by NEVS to new buyers who joined the Festiva Adventure Club.  Those weeks were deeded directly to Festiva to support the number of points purchased by the buyer.  It's one of the ways that weeks are sold.  Each of those weeks is now generating a new maintenance fee to the resort.

You may also notice that the weeks are weeks 9 and 10 - perhaps the most difficult weeks to sell in Provincetown.  By selling them as part of a Festiva package, NEVS is able to add real value to off season weeks, get them sold and get a maintenance fee.

This is actually great news for the Sandcastle (and for Southcape as well) because NEVS has a way of efficiently selling off season time for real value.  Again, something that should have been done twenty years ago but wasn't.  I understand why people are confused about the relationship with NEVS, but the best thing that can happen to either resort is to have a company selling the weeks and generating new maintenance fees.  That is exactly what NEVS is doing and you've published the actual proof.  You don't need to take my word anymore.  This is great news!!


----------



## Classylassy523

NEVMSLLC said:


> Classy
> 
> Let's not forget the original criticism which was about NEVS keeping a sales office etc. at the resort without paying rent.  All I did was point out that NEVS keeps a sales office in a unit that they own entirely which is not at all inappropriate.
> 
> Now you're asking questions about deeding process, partial releases, assignments and other conveyancing issues which is not a problem, it's all public record.  The problem has been the misunderstandings of the public record that has been posted on here by you and others.
> 
> It seems that, when there's something you don't understand, the automatic assumption is that it must be illegal, underhanded or even criminal.  Nothing could be further from the truth and the truth is right there for everyone to see in the Registry of Deeds.  Any attorney, title examiner and even a real estate broker could tell you what it means with no effort at all.
> 
> But when you refer to the legal process as "convoluted and twisted so much that you need to be an expert at untying knots to figure it out", you mischaracterize the whole process.  You're not an attorney and shouldn't be expected to understand all of the issues involved.  I wonder why, when you don't understand something, you don't ask an attorney to explain it to you instead of defaming everything and everyone.
> 
> And you're not alone, JackB62 just did the same thing by referring to it as a "Classic shell game".  It's always difficult to try and explain things to people who's minds are already made up.  More than that, it's typically a useless effort.  When I see those types of things posted on here and the attacks on me personally, do you really wonder why I don't bother responding anymore?  Treat me respectfully and I'm happy to reciprocate.



Cliff ...
 No where in my posts did I question the legality of anything.  

What I was questioning was your statement that no units had been sold ... a FACT, to quote you.  When I pointed out that there had been units sold, now I am accusing you of illegalities.  What I was also questioning ... who the owners were of those units.  

Now that I think about your statement ... no units have been SOLD .... you are GIVING those units to Festiva or FAC or Intercity Escrow or Colebrook or which ever entity takes units and deposits them into the related trust.  Is this another way to give Festiva increased ownership, even if it is in white weeks?  And, what is NEVS getting out of this?  You have to be making money somehow, and charging $1.00 for a unit doesn't make those monthly payments on your $2.5 milliion mortgage you have on the Southcape and Sandcastle Resorts.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Classylassy523 said:


> Cliff ...
> No where in my posts did I question the legality of anything.
> 
> What I was questioning was your statement that no units had been sold ... a FACT, to quote you.  When I pointed out that there had been units sold, now I am accusing you of illegalities.  What I was also questioning ... who the owners were of those units.
> 
> Now that I think about your statement ... no units have been SOLD .... you are GIVING those units to Festiva or FAC or Intercity Escrow or Colebrook or which ever entity takes units and deposits them into the related trust.  Is this another way to give Festiva increased ownership, even if it is in white weeks?  And, what is NEVS getting out of this?  You have to be making money somehow, and charging $1.00 for a unit doesn't make those monthly payments on your $2.5 milliion mortgage you have on the Southcape and Sandcastle Resorts.




Actually, you have.  On September 30 in post #64, you accuse us of "criminal acts'.  You posted that you  "have no respect for Cliff Hagberg" on September 16 in post number 482 and several times you've suggested that there are legal problems in what management is doing.  You've accused us of "terrorizing" the owners.  You've said a lot more but I didn't bother going through all of your posts.

Would you communicate with someone who accused you of criminal acts, publicly stated that they have no respect for you and told people you were terrorizing them?  Do you really want me to go back through all of your posts because I have no problem doing that, I just think people get the idea of where you're coming from.  Frankly, I don't have a problem telling you what's going on, I just won't do it when I'm insulted, defamed and my reputation is attacked.

Here are some facts for you based on the information you posted.

NEVS is selling weeks and generating new maintenance fee paying owners.  If you want to get NEVS out, help them sell weeks - the faster they sell the weeks, the sooner they'll be out.  FYI, when NEVS sells it's weeks and then forecloses and sells the weeks owned by delinquent owners who aren't paying any fees, the resort will have over $500,000 more per year to operate.  What do you think that will do to your maintenance fee and the financial health of your resort?

Finally, the details of how NEVS makes it's money is not your business, except that you are aware that NEVS makes money by selling the weeks it owns.

And with this post, I'm once again - gone.  You just caught me on a weekend the Patriots aren't playing and the Red Sox are done!!


----------



## Classylassy523

NEVMSLLC said:


> Actually, you have.  On September 30 in post #64, you accuse us of "criminal acts'.  You posted that you  "have no respect for Cliff Hagberg" on September 16 in post number 482 and several times you've suggested that there are legal problems in what management is doing.  You've accused us of "terrorizing" the owners.  You've said a lot more but I didn't bother going through all of your posts.
> 
> Would you communicate with someone who accused you of criminal acts, publicly stated that they have no respect for you and told people you were terrorizing them?  Do you really want me to go back through all of your posts because I have no problem doing that, I just think people get the idea of where you're coming from.  Frankly, I don't have a problem telling you what's going on, I just won't do it when I'm insulted, defamed and my reputation is attacked.
> 
> Here are some facts for you based on the information you posted.
> 
> NEVS is selling weeks and generating new maintenance fee paying owners.  If you want to get NEVS out, help them sell weeks - the faster they sell the weeks, the sooner they'll be out.  FYI, when NEVS sells it's weeks and then forecloses and sells the weeks owned by delinquent owners who aren't paying any fees, the resort will have over $500,000 more per year to operate.  What do you think that will do to your maintenance fee and the financial health of your resort?
> 
> Finally, the details of how NEVS makes it's money is not your business, except that you are aware that NEVS makes money by selling the weeks it owns.
> 
> And with this post, I'm once again - gone.  You just caught me on a weekend the Patriots aren't playing and the Red Sox are done!!



Cliff ...

*CRIMINAL ACTS - *

The criminal acts I spoke about in Post 64 was NEVS breaking MGL 183.  You have denied deeded owners access to the owners list ... you charged owners a special assessment without the right to vote ... all clearly stated in the law and in our deed/trust.  Yes, NEVS has broken the law and the last time I checked, when you break a law that constitutes a criminal act.  

*RESPECT - *

Respect is not something you get, Cliff, it is something you earn.  I have a difficult time respecting someone who uses doublespeak when communicating with owners and who tells the same story 2 or 3 different ways, whichever fits at the time.  I have a difficult time knowing that the people who are running my resort have denied me and others their rights as owners.  

*TERRORISM -*

I am pretty sure that the terrrorizing of owners was laid at Outfield Marketing's feet.  Even you have admitted, when it suited your purpose, that they have used unsavory tactics to convince owners to give up their property.  Playing on people's fears is a form of terrorism.  Terry, the Outfield trainee, tried to use fear to get me to give up my property just this year.  Fear tactics to convince me I would be leaving my children nothing but problems if I didn't turn my deeded property over to FAC.  Questioned my wisdom and concern about my family.  Of course, he wasn't as crude as Greg Hughes last year, but the pressure was there just the same.  That is terrorism.

Please, Cliff, you adopting the role of victim is a laugh.  Maybe you should talk to owners who were victims of Outfield Marketing.  You know those people ... the ones you are in partnership with and make up the principals of NEVS and control the Board of Trustees at both Southcape and Sandcastle Resorts. 

Help you sell weeks?  Excuse me?  I should help you sell weeks, when you have a sales force on site that won't sell them?  When questioned, Outfield salespeople inform us that they *DO NOT *sell weeks, they sell points.  They do everything they can to discourage deeded ownershp of weeks.  Do you tell Outfield to sell weeks?  If you are so hot to sell weeks, how come there is NOTHING on the websites about selling units?  Where is all this selling of deeded weeks going on?  I know you are GIVING units to Festiva ... well you are charging $1.00, but beyond that where are the units that you have sold?  I haven't seen anything in the Registry of Deeds ... just Festiva, Intercity, FAC!

Just calling it the way I see it, Cliff.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Yes, I think we all know how you see it.  Must be awful to have such blurry vision when the truth is right in front of you . . . .


----------



## Sou13

*Contacts and links info*

The following email appeared to me to be a request to post this info to *this* discussion:

In speaking with Al Ewald today, he indicated that he would like information on contacts for local Cape Cod newspapers, state and local senators published for any owners that may wish to step up the public side of these issues.

I have posted the information on TUG Sandcastle posts  - with names, addresses, phone #'s and emails - one for the newspaper component and one for the government component.

You may wish to post it either or both on sandcastlegroups as well. I wasn't sure - thought it was you - who was involved in this aspect.  You can read them below; cut and paste if you wish. Or send them to whomever would be doing this.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=811920&posted=1#post811920

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85788​
I requested that the sender of this request post it herself but she chose not to.  However, since there's some discussion of where to find the truth it now appears relevant to this discussion:

Contacts: Cape Cod Area Newspapers - Write to an Editor 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those owners who wish to have their voices heard in the local Cape Cod media, here are some resources:

Letters Editor, 
Cape Cod Times 
319 Main St., Hyannis MA 02601. 
Letters may be faxed to: (508) 771-3292.
Editor in chief: Paul Pronovost, 508 862-1166
Editorial Staff: Newsroom staff list 
Ombudsman: Jayne M. Iafrate
letters@capecodonline.com

The Cape Cod Chronicle 
60-C Munson Meeting Way, 
Chatham, MA 02633
508-945-2220 • 508-430-2700
Editorial Dept.: 508-945-2220
Production Dept: 508-945-2228
Advertising Dept: 508-945-2229
FAX: 508-945-2579
letters@capecodchronicle.com

The Barnstable Patriot 
Submit Letter to the Editor 
4 Ocean Street
Hyannis, MO 01206
Phone: 508-771-1427 
Fax: 508-790-3997
letters@barnstablepatriot.com


The Provincetown Banner
167 Commercial St. 
PO Box 977 
Provincetown, MA 02657
Tel: 1 (508) 487-7400 
Free: 1 (888) 782-2267 
Fax: 1 (508) 487-7144
editor@provincetownbanner.com 

Contacts: Cape Cod Area Govt Representation - US Senators 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those who wish to voice their concerns to the Representatives in the Cape Cod Area or to our US Senators here are the contacts:

Senator Robert O’Leary
State House
Room 511B
Boston, MA 02133
Telephone: (617) 722-1570
Fax: (617) 722-1271
Robert.O'Leary@state.ma.us
DISTRICT REPRESENTED: CAPE AND ISLANDS.— Barnstable, precincts 1 to 9, inclusive, and 13, Mashpee, Provincetown, 

MATTHEW C. PATRICK - Mashpee
State House District Office
Room 540 24 Collins Road
State House P.O. Box 3252
Boston, MA 02133 Falmouth, MA 02536
Telephone: 617-722-2090 508-540-6308
Facsimile: 617-722-2848 
E-mail: Rep.MatthewPatrick@hou.state.ma.us
RepMattP@Cape.com

JEFFREY D. PERRY - Mashpee
State House District Office
Room 136 49 Route 6A
State House Post Office Box 1435
Boston, MA 02133 Sandwich, MA 02563
Telephone: 617-722-2396 Phone: (508)-888-2158
Facsimile: 617-722-2819 Fax: (508) 888-1179
Email: Rep.JeffreyPerry@hou.state.ma.us

SARAH K. PEAKE - Provincetown 
State House District Office
Room 473F 
State House 
Boston, MA 02133 
Telephone: 617-722-2210 508-487-5694
Facsimile:617-722-2239 
E-Mail: Rep.SarahPeake@Hou.State.MA.US

US SENATORS - MA

John F. Kerry (Democrat) 
421 Russell Senate Office Building 
United States Senate 
Washington, D.C. 20510 
PHONE: 
1-202-224-2742 
FAX: 
1-202-224-8525 
E-MAIL: 
john_kerry@kerry.senate.gov 
WEB: 
http://www.senate.gov/~kerry/ 


Paul G. Kirk, Jr.
Democrat - Massachusetts 
317 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING
WASHINGTON DC 20510
DC Phone: 202-224-4543
Email: Senator_Kirk@kirk.senate.gov

Here are the links to check out the claims by NEVMSLLC:
Massachusetts Corporations Search
Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access
Southcape Condo I Master Deed


----------



## Carolinian

*It can be done - Hanalei Bay boots out developer*

Hanalei Bay timeshare resort in Hawaii is out from under the thumb of Celebrity Resorts and now in full control of its timeshare owners, after settlement of a lawsuit filed April 2009.  Celebrity surrendered control of the HOA board and the owners agreed to a buyout of its current management contract.  The new homeowner-run board contracted the management to TPI.  Celebrity will still own the resort restaurant and will be able to sell or rent the weeks it owns at Hanalei Bay.  Celebrity had purchased unsold inventory and developer rights from the original developer of the resort.

The key is organizing, getting a lawyer, and getting the matter in court.

_Timesharing Today_ magazine commented ''Yes, there is a storm brewing and 2010 may turn out to be significant in terms of owners organizing and taking action"


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Yes, I think we all know how you see it.  Must be awful to have such blurry vision when the truth is right in front of you . . . .



As someone who has taken action to limit information, you commenting on the "truth" is comical. 

You really only have one purpose here. To obfuscate the truth and to discourage owners from organizing to the extent that legal action you will force you to deal in a fair manner with the owners. Most people see your presence for exactly what it is - just a disinformation campaign to subvert owners from organizing.


----------



## Sou13

NEVMSLLC said:


> NEVS is selling weeks and generating new maintenance fee paying owners.  If you want to get NEVS out, help them sell weeks - the faster they sell the weeks, the sooner they'll be out.  FYI, when NEVS sells it's weeks and then forecloses and sells the weeks owned by delinquent owners who aren't paying any fees, the resort will have over $500,000 more per year to operate.  What do you think that will do to your maintenance fee and the financial health of your resort?
> 
> Finally, the details of how NEVS makes it's money is not your business, except that you are aware that NEVS makes money by selling the weeks it owns.
> 
> And with this post, I'm once again - gone.  You just caught me on a weekend the Patriots aren't playing and the Red Sox are done!!


What right does NEVS have to "foreclose" weeks owned by delinquent owners?  Those weeks should be foreclosed by the Community Association, not NEVS!  Here's what I found on record at the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access:

Bk-Pg:23628-197    Recorded: 04-21-2009 @ 3:03:49pm  Inst #: 21198  Chg: N  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 14 TIME 44 
Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Gtor: FOLEY, CARLA F (Gtor) 
Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601 

Recording Fee: 100.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00 


Bk-Pg:23628-199    Recorded: 04-21-2009 @ 3:03:49pm  Inst #: 21199  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 14 TIME 9 
Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Gtor: PAUL, PAMELA (Gtor) 
Gtor: PAUL, PAMELA L (Gtor) 
Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601 

Recording Fee: 100.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00 


Bk-Pg:23628-201    Recorded: 04-21-2009 @ 3:03:49pm  Inst #: 21200  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

 Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 22 TIME 12 13 
Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Gtor: SHERIDAN, PHILLIP T (Gtor) 
Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601 

Recording Fee: 100.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00 


Bk-Pg:23628-204    Recorded: 04-21-2009 @ 3:03:49pm  Inst #: 21202  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 2 
Grp: 1 
Type: Time Sharing Deed  Doc$: 1.00 
Desc: UNIT 25 TIME 38 
Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 
Gtor: KELL, MICHAEL J (&O) (Gtor) 
Gtor: KELL, MARYBETH S (&O) (Gtor) 
Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 

Return addr:  NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES 
  PO BOX 2847 
  HYANNIS MA 02601 

Recording Fee: 100.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00


----------



## JackB62

*Letter from the lawsuit filer- Southcape and Sandcastle*

This was given widespread delivery in MA:

Re: Southcape Resort & Club 950 Falmouth Rd. Mashpee, MA 02649, Sandcastle and Royal Coach condos, Rte 6A, Provincetown, MA

Dear Sirs:

This is being written in desperation. Ten thousand (10,000) Time Share Interval (TSI) owners in the above three (3) condominiums have been scammed out of their ownership of their common elements: Pools, Clubhouses, Tennis Courts, Physical Structures and all common areas by the confiscatory "take-over" of the three condos by individuals - two trustees- who have violated MGL St. #183-A and #183-B, the recorded condominium documents and the Mass. Corporate Laws as these pertain to the recorded condominium documents.

Incredibly, no owners of the intervals were given notice of the 2008 sale of their interests (ownership), as required by the condominium documents; the scheme came to light in March of 2009 when a special assessment notice was sent to all TSI owners. Amounts varied from $400 to $885 per interval owned. The anticipated revenue intended to be raised was in excess of $6,000,000.

                                          Completely Illegal

I, as an owner for 27 years, have initiated legal action on behalf of the Southcape resort against the current "owner" of our interests- New England Vacation Services (NEVS) whose president is Clifford Hagberg. I am attempting to obtain owners names and addresses, as prescribed by the Master Deed and MGL St. #183-B. He has not cooperated to many attempts to get this information.

I, and others, have sent numerous certified letters to the Massachusetts Attorney General; she has not helped at all! It seems she believes this is a civil, not a criminal, matter. I believe that taking my property away illegally is less than civil and more likely criminal.

This letter is a plea. We need your help. We are denied information that is mandated in our documents that we need to regain our rightful ownerships.

Very Truly Yours,

Alfred J. Ewald, Southcape I, Unit 30.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, JackB62!*

Thank you, JackB62, for sharing your uncle's letter and for the Southcape newsletters your father had saved and has shared with me.  Instead of posting them to this discussion, I intend to scan and share them as email attachments ASAP.  I hope to be able to add them to the letters I've shared both here on TUG and as email attachments.

I note from these newsletters that renovations to Units 18-24 had been done as recently as 2000, Units 12-17 were done in 2001, and Units 6-11 were scheduled to be done in 2002.  Provisions for "reserves" had indeed been made while the Trustees tried to keep the MF increases in line with cost-of-living increases.  That's not what we were told by NEVS in October 2008!

Much of the work for which we were assessed an additional $400 has yet to be done, and the interior renovations should not have been scheduled to be done all at once.  Rather, they should continue to be done on a "piecemeal" building by building schedule in order to avoid unnecessary financial and usage disruptions.  These renovations should be scheduled during "maintenance weeks" at the discretion of management.

Owners continue to report that the Internet access isn't available in the units and that owners are being offered a $50 gift card for meeting with "Frank" in "Owner Services"!  He claims that everyone who has switched from deeded ownership to the points system is "so happy with it."  He claims that the previous owners had let the place get into terrible disrepair, etc., etc. He just keeps talking & talking......He says that maintenance fees will be going up & that he couldn't promise that we wouldn't get another assessment but didn't think it would be this year. 

The website was better before NEVS included the "upgrade" in the Special Assessment, and rentals decreased when the rental fee was increased.  No word on the septic system repairs to date.

Comments, anyone?


----------



## Carolinian

It is time for action, not words.  If you sit on your hands, your resort will be too far gone to do anything.  You need a lawsuit to take your resort back from these scoundrels.


----------



## e.bram

AMEN!!!!!!!


----------



## Sou13

*Lies, NEVMSLLC?*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Hi David
> 
> I could probably write a treatise on your question, but I'll try to sum up my feelings as best I can.  On Cape Cod, there are basically three types of resorts: purpose built like the Cove at Yarmouth, converted condos such as Southcape and converted motels like the Ocean Club.  Virtually all of the oceanfront resorts are converted motels, great locations, small units.  Purpose built resorts have lots of amenities and smaller units.  The converted condos were originally intended to be whole ownership condominiums and they tend to be large and spacious.  Different strokes, different folks.
> 
> Occupancies do vary from resort to resort but at Southcape, for example, we run about 25% in January, increasing gradually until June and then in the high 90% range until the middle of October. About 65% in May and 35% in November for example.  Most of the off season weeks are used for exchange.
> 
> Because of the lack of off season rental activity, a fully sold out resort is critical to a resort's financial health.  If off season weeks go delinquent, it's very difficult to rent those weeks to recover the maintenance fee.  That's why a good sales program to replace those owners is so important.  If you need more details, let me know.
> 
> I began with Southcape in 1992 doing a resale program for the owners and the former developers.   Over the years, I've owned a number of weeks at Southcape and I never did buy one on Ebay for $1.  The developers asked me to leave the resort in 1993 because I was selling too many of their weeks.  I continued doing resales from off site but it was simply not as effective.
> 
> I began to see the problems developing with the resort back then and I decided to try and buy the remaining inventory so I could sell the weeks and make sure the resort was on the right track.  I tried to buy the inventory in 1995, 1998, 2003 and 2005.  Each time, the developers changed their mind and kept the inventory and control.  Finally, last year they decided to sell for real and that's sort of how I got where I am now.
> 
> Funny enough, I've never stayed there but I do plan to stay there sometime this year.  I've always loved Southcape Resort.  It has everything you would want in a great resort - wonderful units, great location, the right amenities and a "feel" that most resorts don't have.  As you've seen, Southcape owners are passionate about their resort and that's a very good thing.  Over the next year, I believe that Southcape will become the resort it's always been meant to be and I'm already proud to have a part in making that happen.http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84127&page=13


Here's what the newsletter from 1995 had to say about IVS at Southcape:

*The resort appears to be heading in the proper direction and although there have been many positive steps taken by management, we still have a long way to go and there are still serious problems that need to be addressed. Defaulted maintenance assessments cause a burden on the membership. Sales to new owners are needed to offset these defaults and to increase cash flow. IVS was successful in selling a small number of weeks for our owners but were unable to increase the owner base. The developers have a number of weeks in all time periods available for sale along with a selected number of foreclosed weeks. If you are interested in acquiring an additional week and wish to save marketing and sales commissions please contact Bob Woods at 201- 265 -7778 for additional information.*​


----------



## jannibaby

*Interesting call to Southcape yesterday*

I had an interesting and frustrating call to Southcape yesterday.  We were thinking of renting a few days off season in the Spring.  I was told that of course we couldn't book before 2 weeks (I had forgotten about that rule) and that in order to obtain the owner's rates, we would be REQUIRED to take a tour of the resort to hear about the exciting new exchange opportunities!  I was quite taken aback.  I said "Oh I know all about the EXCITING opportunities and I am not interested."  She said well in order to get the owner's rates this is what you will have to do.  I asked again why we were REQUIRED to do this.  She said hold on and immediately shuffled around and got her script to read to me.  It was the obvious script about improvements and opportunities, basically the Festiva spiel.  I immediately asked to speak to Rosaleen but she was not there.  I told the person that I understood she had to read this to me and tow the company line but that this is bordering on absurd at this point.  So, it seems that Outfield Marketing or Festiva or whoever, is still hard at work to push their product at Southcape.  The last thing I would want to do is to go on a "timeshare sales tour" when I ALREADY own at the freaking resort.  :annoyed:


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## ChrisH

*And now for the TRUTH - Festiva Adventure Club fees 2010*

From:  Festiva Resorts                                                   November 10, 2009

Dear Sir or Madam

This year has been an exciting year for the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club, but we sure aren’t sad to see it go.  2009 has been a tough year for nearly everyone and the Adventure Club is no exception.  On the positive side, there have been some great additions to the Adventure Club this year and there are more to follow in 2010 and beyond.  We would like to take this opportunity to update you on these recent additions and inform you of some exciting future additions and some unfortunate changes that may not be as pleasant.
Festiva Resorts has added four fantastic destinations for members to choose from.  All are not available for your next vacation with the Adventure Club.  From skiing in Maine to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, or from relaxing on the beach in one of America’s oldest cities to fall leaf watching in New England, the Adventure Club has made it available for you.
•	Rangeley Lake Resort in Rangeley, Maine
•	Frenchmen Orleans 519 in New Orleans, Louisiana
•	Ocean Gate Resort in St. Augustine, Florida
•	Southcape Resort & Club in Cape Cod, Massachusetts
During 2009 we heard feedback from many of our members that were not happy with the $89 multiple reservation fee that was charged for any stay booked after the first reservation transaction.  We are happy to announce that effective immediately the $89 multiple reservation fee has been eliminated and there will be $0 charge for making multiple reservations.
Festiva Resorts has added nearly 4,000 new members to the Adventure Club through its sales efforts in 2009, bringing total membership to nearly 16,000 members.
We would also like to remind you that you may accelerate a future year’s allotment of points and/or rent additional points in order to complete any reservation.
Unfortunately the Adventure Club has seen the effects of the economic recession just as it has impacted many other industries, businesses and individuals.  In 2009 we have seen an increase in delinquencies and defaults.  As a result the Adventure Club is facing some very large deficits in 2010.  In order to face those deficits head on and to ensure that the Adventure Club continues to fulfill its mission of providing superior products and services to its members, the maintenance fee structure is being adjusted to include nearly $1.7 million in expected bad debt and defaults.  To be straightforward, that will result in an increase in fees for everyone.  At this time the assessments have not been completed and we will not have the specific maintenance fees amounts available until immediately before your invoice is mailed.  The Owner Services department does not have this information at this time.
Festiva Resorts passes this new along with sincere empathy as it has certainly felt the pain firsthand.  Festiva Resorts (while under no obligation to do so) has subsidized the Adventure Club’s bad debt in an amount approaching $1 million during 2009 and will again contribute and estimated $1 million in 2010.
  We mention the above contributions as we predict that the news of this increase could be met by accusations and rumors spread among members through various internet outlets or at the resorts.  The facts are that people have been hit pretty hard during 2009 and quite simply many of them can no longer afford their home or their car, let alone their Adventure Club membership. To lessen the impact of this deficit on all members Festiva Resorts is going above and beyond its obligations by contributing $2 million in subsidies by the end of 2010 that otherwise would have been used to further enhance the Club and its resorts.  We ask for your understanding and to come to terms with the fact that you the members and we the founders of the Adventure Club are in this together.  We know that these economic woes will eventually pass and we also know that in order to protect your investment and ours all parties involved must act responsibly and face this burden squarely and completely.
We want to provide you with the facts and be as transparent as possible as you will be receiving your Maintenance Fee invoice by mail in the next few weeks.  Again, we appreciate your understanding and have confidence that the efforts of responsible members like you along with those of Festiva Resorts will help to continually improve the Adventure Club program and its family of resorts.  We look forward to servicing your vacation needs in 2010 and moving forward.

Sincerely,
Festiva Resorts Adventure Club


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## Sou13

*Thanks for the update on Festiva, ChrisH!*

For starters, this news means that all of the Southcape summer week owners who fell for the Outfield Marketing "information" will now be paying more in maintenance fees unless NEVS now sees the need to hit us with another special assessment in order to turn the resort over to Festiva and get the heck outta here.


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## Sou13

jannibaby said:


> I had an interesting and frustrating call to Southcape yesterday.  We were thinking of renting a few days off season in the Spring.  I was told that of course we couldn't book before 2 weeks (I had forgotten about that rule) and that in order to obtain the owner's rates, we would be REQUIRED to take a tour of the resort to hear about the exciting new exchange opportunities!  I was quite taken aback.  I said "Oh I know all about the EXCITING opportunities and I am not interested."  She said well in order to get the owner's rates this is what you will have to do.  I asked again why we were REQUIRED to do this.  She said hold on and immediately shuffled around and got her script to read to me.  It was the obvious script about improvements and opportunities, basically the Festiva spiel.  I immediately asked to speak to Rosaleen but she was not there.  I told the person that I understood she had to read this to me and tow the company line but that this is bordering on absurd at this point.  So, it seems that Outfield Marketing or Festiva or whoever, is still hard at work to push their product at Southcape.  The last thing I would want to do is to go on a "timeshare sales tour" when I ALREADY own at the freaking resort.  :annoyed:


Do you get a $50 gift card for taking the "tour"?


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## Sou13

*Heading for Southcape*

I'm getting packed and hope to be off for Mashpee soon.  I hope to be settled in this evening.

If you haven't yet submitted your questions for Rosaleen Cassidy, Resort Manager, there's still time.  Call me at 1-508-477-4700 x 120 this evening or tomorrow a.m. no later than 10:30.

I don't own a laptop and there's still no Internet access in the units, besides which there's not a lot of time to be spending online.  I'll be returning Saturday.

If you have the time and live within driving distance, I'll be happy to give you the "tour" myself!


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## Sou13

*Correction*

I'm at Southcape Resort but not in Unit 20.  The reason for this is that I had originally requested to be in Unit 27 but at the time it wasn't available, so I accepted the reservation for Unit 20 and when I called the resort and looked at my reservation I was expecting to be in Unit 20.

When I checked in and was given the keys to Unit 27 I was puzzled but hadn't brought my reservation with me and couldn't solve the mystery until this a.m.

That's one of the many things I appreciate about Southcape Resort.  When Unit 27 became available after all, Frances switched me into 27 but didn't make a note of it for the evening staff.  Had I been able to check in at 3 p.m. I'd have been less confused.  I just chalked it up to oncoming senility and vowed to check my reservation when I returned home.  So now that the mystery has been solved, I need to inform anyone who wants to pay me a visit that the # is *508-477-4700 x 127* and that's why I'm here posting instead of enjoying my stay!

The good news is that the library isn't busy and Roche Brothers' Market has Edy's ice cream on sale for $1.99.  I don't need any more ice cream but do need to pick up some ginger ale, so I needed to come to the SouthCape Plaza and the library is still next to Roches' Market.


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## Sou13

*Report from the resort Part I*

This is the first installment of my report of what I did and found at Southcape Resort this past week.  I'll begin by explaining how I was able to spend four days instead of having to stay a week.

If you go back to my earliest posts you learn that I've been splitting my week for years, and that this year I was able to spend the three days over the Memorial Day weekend.  I had made arrangements to pay $100 per month toward the $400 special assessment and had paid $200 by then.  But after seeing what work had yet to be done and talking to another owner who was paying only $50 per month I reasoned that I needed the money more than Southcape does until the remainder of the repairs and renovations could be done.  I was told that I couldn't use my remaining 4 days until the special assessment was paid in full, and I was also told that I could not examine the books because I was "delinquent" in my agreement.

I've been keeping informed about what's been happening and not happening, and by the time I needed to make a decision about whether to bite the bullet and pay the remainder, I reasoned that even if it was unwarranted and illegal, I would still be locked out if I didn't pay, so I called the Resort and put the balance + $50 late fee on my Visa.

The following week we received a very informative newsletter along with our maintenance fee billing for 2010, and for the first time in many, many years, there was a budget included.  Upon reading the newsletter I was embarrassed.  I had never done the math and realized that $400 was actually how much was needed to do the work that had been done so far, and that the remainder of the work would be financed from the $50 per year reserve account.

Now that I had all this info, I emailed rcassidy@southcaperesort.com and requested an appointment to go over questions about the special assessment and budget while staying at the resort, and she graciously set up an appointment.  I then solicited questions from Southcape owners who are on my elist, and emailed them to her so that she'd be prepared to answer them.

Check-in time for the four-day stay is 3 p.m. Tuesday but I didn't arrive until nearly 8 p.m.  That's when I learned that I was supposed to be in unit 27 when I'd notified everyone that I'd be in unit 20.  I was confused but also distracted by the happy hour going on in the clubhouse, and it wasn't too late to have a glass of wine and join the party.  While my $1.99 Edy's ice cream was going soft in my trunk I met some owners who want to hang on to their weeks and an owner who is sorry she didn't.  We exchanged contact info and I've added them to my elist.

That's all for now.  I've already reported my meeting with Frank at http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=826624&postcount=320  My next installment will be about the meeting with Rosaleen and NEVMSLLC.


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## Sou13

*Meeting with Rosaleen and NEVMSLLC*

I've been counting "views" of this discussion and hoping that Southcape owners would post replies but it looks as though I can't put this Part II off any longer, so here goes:

When I emailed Rosaleen the questions I suggested that she might fill in the answers and print them out or (preferably) email them to me so that I could forward them to the Southcape owners on my elist, but instead she led me into her office, then explained that some of my questions needed to be answered by a trustee, which is why NEVMSLLC needed to be present.  I wasn't taken completely by surprise but this did make a difference in what I could say to Rosaleen, who has a 20-year history at Southcape Resort and has been the Resort Manager since 2006.  I didn't tape-record the meeting, and if either Rosaleen or Mr. Hagberg did, they can correct me if I'm posting "misrepresentations" because it's been suggested or implied in the past that I've been guilty of doing that.

I was aware that another owner had met with Rosaleen in October, which is why I wasn't necessarily expecting to have a "trustee" present at this meeting, especially when I wasn't requesting to view the books (which I do not feel qualified to do).  Other owners who may have had their requests honored haven't reported these meetings to me.

So if anything I report here is a "misrepresentation" I invite NEVMSLLC or any of those other "personas" to correct me because I do try to get to the bottom of things.  I will focus on unanswered questions and email the rest to Southcape owners on my elist.

The most important "misrepresentation" that needs to be corrected is that Mr. Hagberg does not collect a salary of more than $4000 a week from NEVMS LLC the management company.  The "General and Administrative" item on the budget represents the total amount paid to the company and this is determined by a percentage of the maintenance fees that are expected to be paid, which according to the budget shows a *decrease* for 2010 and I'm still at a loss to explain why.  If Monterey Financial is expected to collect more from delinquent owners in 2010, shouldn't there be an *increase* in the amount paid to NEVMS?

The biggest issue that remains unresolved is that NEVS is using two units on a year-round basis without paying MFs, SAs or rent for use of those weeks because the so-called "developer's rights" allow them to maintain a "sales" office at the resort.  However, since NEVS has now "relocated" to a residence address at Southcape Resort, this is IMVHO a further imposition on MF- and SA-paying owners, especially since, despite what NEVMSLLC claims, weeks are *NOT* being sold in Unit 32, and Unit 33 is *NOT* being used as a "model" as a developer would use a unit or in the case of Southcape would need *6* units to show as models because there are *6* styles of units available at Southcape Resort.  Unit 33 is being used as a permanent residence for the "owner services" rep who is actually *servicing Festiva*, not Southcape Resort owners.

To my question of why Rosaleen and CH "perjured" themselves by filing papers that they served as "Clerk" of the corporation, the answer which I have verified in the case of Rosaleen is that she never signed the papers!  However, the filings looks fishy to me because the "signature" part is cut off, and CH did sign the "Certificate of Change of Directors or Officers," which is why I'm not satisfied with the answer to this one.

To my questions about owner representation on the Board of Directors and Board of Trustees, the answer remained that there are legal issues that need to be worked out.  If and when this ever happens, my concern is that the Master Deed will be amended to accommodate Festiva, not Southcape Condo I deeded owners.  The online filings at http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/corpsearch/CorpSearchInput.asp do not go back to the earliest years of Barth & Woods as "directors" of the corporation.  The earliest online filings are 2001.  I was told that there were  two appointees to the board in the 1990s but that when one of them died he was never replaced.  The records of whatever happened to the board members who were serving in 1990 have not been produced.  I did request copies of all meeting minutes and trustees meeting minutes since 1982 but if they exist, I have to request them again.  This is a matter for the "advisory committee" which is not expected to be meeting until next year.

The answer to my question of who was taking "minutes" at the "annual meeting" the answer was that Denise Daly, who works for NEVMSLLC, was sitting in the back of the room taking notes which she later corroborated with the "clerk" (whoever that is) and that the "annual meeting" wasn't actually an "annual meeting" because the agenda was not followed.  I can dimly see a picture in my mind's eye of CH throwing the agenda into the air, which he claimed he did, but since no Southcape owners have posted their recollections of the meeting to this discussion, there are more than 1000 Southcape interval owners who are under the impression that they have received "minutes" of the "annual meeting" in the mail.

I didn't request the owners' names and addresses but did acknowledge that I'm aware of the civil action filed by Al Ewald.  Despite my acknowledgment of willingness to help Mr. Ewald my name may still be added to the list of potential owners' advisory committee members.  Rebecca Trail has not filed the papers to have her name added to her parents' timeshare weeks, which is why she is to date ineligible to serve on the committee.

When CH expressed his dismay at my description of his band as sounding like a "buncha drunks" Rosaleen pulled up band's website and read what was posted there, then pointed out that he had "asked for it" by what he had posted!  It was generally acknowledged that his posts may need editing or "softening" as was done in the very informational and positive letter that had accompanied the 2010 MF billing.  Rosaleen is our intermediary and is doing a great job IMVHO which is why I asked whether she plans to continue in that capacity.  She loves her job at Southcape Resort and let's hope her love affair continues for many years to come!

Mr. Hagberg indicated to me that some of the posters to TUG may be in jeopardy of having legal action taken against them.  When he specified that ClassyLassy had posted that he was guilty of criminal acts, I told him that when he accused me of doing the same, I reasoned that if I'm doing 30 MPH in a 25-MPH zone I'm breaking the law and that might make me a criminal.  CH didn't recall that email message to me but I save all my email messages and can produce them upon request.  I refuse to be bound by a "confidentiality" clause if I email questions to nevmsllc@gmail.com. 

I addressed my concern about the $2.5 million mortgage which was explained as a "line of credit" but I can't take the responsibility for explaining why it exists.  My ears heard a question raised about it at the May 16 meeting, but CH denies that the question was about the mortgage, and if Denise Daly was sitting in the back of the room she may not have even heard that one.

An attempt was made to explain how "float" weeks are assigned to Festiva.  I'm still not satisfied with the answer.  If our hopes for financial security rest on Festiva paying MFs and SAs for the weeks that have been turned over to the FAC, then our hopes for the future rest on the financial security of the FAC which is already showing deficits for 2009 and 2010.  I wasn't expecting to be having a meeting with Frank in "owner services" when I met with Rosaleen and NEVMSLLC so I was not aware at the time of the meeting that weeks in units 32-55 are fixed, not float, which explains why Condo II was never sold out.  In fact, I learned from NEVMSLLC  that none of the weeks in that block of condo units had ever been sold by Barth & Woods.  In 1990 an offer was made in the "RUMOR MILL" to contact management about buying units for year-round residence!  This is why we need to know what was going on for the past 18 years.  According to NEVMSLLC the board of trustees never met!

If any questions raised in this discussion have not been answered, please bring them to my attention.  I will email the questions and answers attachment to Southcape owners only.  Anyone who is not on my email list can email me a request to be added to the list.


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## JackB62

*Unanswered questions*

Sou13,

Thanks for taking your time on a holiday to converse with
management at Southcape. I think you'll agree, they weren't
a font of information? Aren't they accountable to us?

CH did not give an answer to his remuneration. What percent of the
collected MFs become his? Or, what dollar amount?

Also, is there a separate account for the "reserve fund?" How much
is currently in it?

CH, can't you answer these right here, or are the questions too
hard for you? 

Jack


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## Sou13

*Clarification*

*I received this email message from Rosaleen Cassidy today:*

I hope that you are well, and that you enjoyed your recent stay at Southcape Resort.

I have just reviewed your posting on the TUG website, and I believe that you may have misunderstood my response when you asked me about serving as the clerk of the corporation. Therefore, I will attempt to outline the events around this issue in an effort to provide further clarification.

On March 26 of this year, Mr. Hagberg asked me if I realized that I was listed as the clerk of the corporation. I was initially confused by the question. I have held the position of manager of the resort since August of 2005. I have never served as clerk of the corporation. He advised me that I was listed with the Secretary of State Department as clerk, and informed me that I could check it online. I did this and found that he was indeed correct. I immediately called the department and spoke with Patricia. I asked her how this could have happened without my knowledge. She said that the report was filed online using an electronic signature. This is rather disturbing as it means, in effect, that anybody can sign these forms electronically without the knowledge of the person whose name they are using.  It is even more disturbing that the department does not seem particularly interested when this happens. However, at the time of the filing, a fee required to file the report would have to be paid by the person who, claiming to be me, electronically signed my name. So, I assume, that a little research on the department’s part would find the source of that payment, and, therefore, the signatory. Patricia informed me that I should to put my concern in writing, and to direct it to Laurie Flynn. I wrote to Laurie Flynn and I received a response from her on April 24. This letter stated that the department did not have the “authority to modify information made on filings,”and that the corporation would have to file an  Article  of Correction.  I contacted Robert Woods.  Mr. Woods said that he would contact Attorney McNichols and have her make the necessary corrections. Attorney McNichols proceeded to file an Article of Correction substituting herself as clerk for that time period.  When I recently reviewed the filings at the Secretary of State’s department, it appears that Attorney McNichols is still listed as Clerk. I believe that this is another error. 

I was never asked to serve as clerk of the corporation. If I had been asked, I would have declined. Annual reports were not filed in 2006 or 2007. The reports for 2006, 2007 & 2008 were filed on August 7, 2008, just prior to the sale to NEVS. They were filed, using my name, without my permission or knowledge. Given that I was never an officer of the corporation, I have never participated in such filings. When you ask the question online as to “why I perjured myself,” it implies that you have established that I have perjured myself. I consider this damaging, and I would ask that you make the necessary corrections

 I choose to believe that my being listed as clerk was an innocent error, but if there was intentional wrongdoing, then I am the victim of that wrongdoing, and not the perpetrator. The manner in which you have covered this in your posting would seem to suggest otherwise. 

Again, I hope that this email finds you well.  It was a pleasure meeting with you during your stay, and I greatly appreciate your kind comments with regards to my work at Southcape.  Please do not hesitate to contact me if I may be of any further assistance.

*I hope this clears up the confusion.  That's why I'm here!

Rosaleen Cassidy may not be the only person doing business in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts who has been the victim of wrongdoing.  I've been in contact with a former Massachusetts businessman who told me that even the "seals" used to document filings can be falsified!*


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## Sou13

*Corporate filings*

For my own records I've saved and shared copies of the filings and corrections from 2005 and 2007 on.  The last time I checked there was also a filing for 2009 if I'm not mistaken but it's not there today.


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## Sou13

*What became of the annual report for 2009?*

"Every non-profit corporation organized under the laws of the commonwealth must file a non-profit annual report with the Corporations Division on or before November 1st of each year.  M.G.L.A. c180 § 26A (1933); 950 CMR § 106.13." http://www.sec.state.ma.us/cor/corpdf/180npcar.pdf

"INCOMPLETE OR INCORRECT REPORTS WILL BE RETURNED TO SENDER FOR COMPLETION AND/OR CORRECTION"


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## Fig

Sou13 said:


> *I received this email message from Rosaleen Cassidy today:*
> 
> I hope that you are well, and that you enjoyed your recent stay at Southcape Resort.
> 
> I have just reviewed your posting on the TUG website, and I believe that you may have misunderstood my response when you asked me about serving as the clerk of the corporation. Therefore, I will attempt to outline the events around this issue in an effort to provide further clarification.
> 
> On March 26 of this year, Mr. Hagberg asked me if I realized that I was listed as the clerk of the corporation. I was initially confused by the question. I have held the position of manager of the resort since August of 2005. I have never served as clerk of the corporation. He advised me that I was listed with the Secretary of State Department as clerk, and informed me that I could check it online. I did this and found that he was indeed correct. I immediately called the department and spoke with Patricia. I asked her how this could have happened without my knowledge. She said that the report was filed online using an electronic signature. This is rather disturbing as it means, in effect, that anybody can sign these forms electronically without the knowledge of the person whose name they are using.  It is even more disturbing that the department does not seem particularly interested when this happens. However, at the time of the filing, a fee required to file the report would have to be paid by the person who, claiming to be me, electronically signed my name. So, I assume, that a little research on the department’s part would find the source of that payment, and, therefore, the signatory. Patricia informed me that I should to put my concern in writing, and to direct it to Laurie Flynn. I wrote to Laurie Flynn and I received a response from her on April 24. This letter stated that the department did not have the “authority to modify information made on filings,”and that the corporation would have to file an  Article  of Correction.  I contacted Robert Woods.  Mr. Woods said that he would contact Attorney McNichols and have her make the necessary corrections. Attorney McNichols proceeded to file an Article of Correction substituting herself as clerk for that time period.  When I recently reviewed the filings at the Secretary of State’s department, it appears that Attorney McNichols is still listed as Clerk. I believe that this is another error.
> 
> I was never asked to serve as clerk of the corporation. If I had been asked, I would have declined. Annual reports were not filed in 2006 or 2007. The reports for 2006, 2007 & 2008 were filed on August 7, 2008, just prior to the sale to NEVS. They were filed, using my name, without my permission or knowledge. Given that I was never an officer of the corporation, I have never participated in such filings. When you ask the question online as to “why I perjured myself,” it implies that you have established that I have perjured myself. I consider this damaging, and I would ask that you make the necessary corrections
> 
> I choose to believe that my being listed as clerk was an innocent error, but if there was intentional wrongdoing, then I am the victim of that wrongdoing, and not the perpetrator. The manner in which you have covered this in your posting would seem to suggest otherwise.
> 
> Again, I hope that this email finds you well.  It was a pleasure meeting with you during your stay, and I greatly appreciate your kind comments with regards to my work at Southcape.  Please do not hesitate to contact me if I may be of any further assistance.
> 
> *I hope this clears up the confusion.  That's why I'm here!
> 
> Rosaleen Cassidy may not be the only person doing business in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts who has been the victim of wrongdoing.  I've been in contact with a former Massachusetts businessman who told me that even the "seals" used to document filings can be falsified!*


This brings up a related ball of wax Sou. Cliff could have found out about having to file such papers was when he worked his way using the alias "Capeguitarguy" onto your private email list and then denied having done so. But the interesting thing is the facts listed in the filing. For backgroud:

As you may recall, I have filed such reports myself and pointed out Cliff had not filed such a report yet was operating as a director....I detailed this in an private email to you. You circulated it to your list, which contained, Capeguitarguy, whose identity was then unknown to you as Cliff. Like magic, after I brought up the subject, and you circulated it to your list, Cliff files all necessary reports. Big deal, he used an alias that two sources connect with him to work his way onto your list and flat out denied it, just as he flat out denied he created several aliases to argue his points for him, until it appears TUG caught him in the act...a practice known as "astroturfing" for which some companies have been prosecuted. Notice how all the Cliff fans have mysteriously disappeared since then? Amazing.

All that aside, the interersting thing is, he files "under penalty of perjury" an address for his business that I have heard subsequently turned out not to be the business address at all. If I recall correctly, from having seen an electronic copy of it online, he handwrote his little report, so the source of that one should be a little clearer.


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## Sou13

*Thanks, Fig!*

Thanks for the post, Fig!  You, tombo, ecwinch, and TUGBrian have been enormously helpful to Southcape owners in our search for info and untimate justice.

From your experience, is there any penalty for not filing?  It appears to me that someone in the Secretary of State's office may be the culprit here.  Clifford Hagberg filed the notice of change in directors listing himself as clerk, but not specifying whom he was replacing (evidently not required).  Then Ms. McNichols filed articles of correction for the three previous years, stating that she, not Rosaleen Cassidy, had been the clerk.  It now appears that Clifford Hagberg replaced Elizabeth McNichols, not Rosaleen Cassidy, but that Elizabeth McNichols is now incorrectly listed as the clerk.

Can anyone in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts get anything right?


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> Thanks for the post, Fig!  You, tombo, ecwinch, and TUGBrian have been enormously helpful to Southcape owners in our search for info and untimate justice.
> 
> From your experience, is there any penalty for not filing?  It appears to me that someone in the Secretary of State's office may be the culprit here.  Clifford Hagberg filed the notice of change in directors listing himself as clerk, but not specifying whom he was replacing (evidently not required).  Then Ms. McNichols filed articles of correction for the three previous years, stating that she, not Rosaleen Cassidy, had been the clerk.  It now appears that Clifford Hagberg replaced Elizabeth McNichols, not Rosaleen Cassidy, but that Elizabeth McNichols is now incorrectly listed as the clerk.
> 
> Can anyone in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts get anything right?



You'd have to check with the Sec of State on that one. The address for NEVS and Outfield marketing were the interesting facts for me. From what I hear, the NEVS address turned out to be bogus. Why put an address down under penalty of perjury for a business address if it is false? As for Outfield, when asked, Festiva rep gave an entirely different address. These are legal documents.


----------



## Sou13

*Debate on WBZ tonight*

The Massachusetts Republican (Scott Brown) and Democratic (Martha Coakley) candidates for Senate will have a radio debate at 8 tonight on WBZ Newsradio’s “NightSide with Dan Rea,’’ and a television debate at 7 p.m. Tuesday with WBZ-TV’s Jon Keller. (That one will be carried live on the WBZ website but will not be televised until 8 a.m. Dec. 27.)


----------



## Sou13

*Six indicted in latest loan fraud case*

It looks as though Attorney General Coakley has bigger scammers to go after than Outfield Marketing and Festiva:

Six indicted in latest loan fraud case

Jenifer McKim was interviewing Sandcastle owners for a Boston Globe article but it looks as though this ponzi scheme took priority over the timeshare one.

I read the reader comments to the coverage of the candidates' debate and there weren't many who had positive things to say about Ms. Coakley.  The Globe, however, claims that "in the end, Coakley lands in the right place"!

So just in case I can't get back to these discussions until next week, have yourselves a merry little Christmas!


----------



## Sou13

*Mortgage fraud?*

I'm wondering whether the deal to take out a $2.5 mortgage on illegally combined resorts could qualify as mortgage fraud.


----------



## e.bram

No. Because in a default the complexes are worth many times the mortgage amount ($200,000.00 per unit)as whole ownership. The only fraud is againt the TS owners, for putting the TS in a precarious financil condition.


----------



## timeos2

e.bram said:


> No. Because in a default the complexes are worth many times the mortgage amount ($200,000.00 per unit)as whole ownership. The only fraud is againt the TS owners, for putting the TS in a precarious financil condition.



It sounds like they may be attempting to pledge the TIMESHARE development(s) as collateral for a mortgage loan9s). That would be fraudulent as no company or Board has that right. They don't own it so they can't pledge it.  And it also appears they are combining two unrelated resorts, another no-no. The owners are the individual weeks buyers and their property, 1/52 of something, cannot be used for mortgage loans. I'm surprised you missed that.


----------



## e.bram

NEVM owners many units according to the posts here. They pledged those I assume and pay the mortgage from management fees. It is a fraud against the TS owners, not the bank. If they cause the TS to go belly up the bank will get their money and the rest will go to the developer. Also along with ownership of the TS units goes a fraction of the common ares. The developer also has title to from 30% TO 60% of the whole complex. good collateral for the bank.


----------



## timeos2

*Can't be done legally*



e.bram said:


> NEVM owners many units according to the posts here. They pledged those I assume and pay the mortgage from management fees. It is a fraud against the TS owners, not the bank. If they cause the TS to go belly up the bank will get their money and the rest will go to the developer. Also along with ownership of the TS units goes a fraction of the common ares. The developer also has title to from 30% TO 60% of the whole complex. good collateral for the bank.



You cannot mortgage XX% of a property. It's 100% or nothing. Thus you need 100% owner approval which they do not have.  It is fraud in multiple ways.  The definition:

Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading.

Misrepresenting ones ability to enter into a mortgage would qualify.


----------



## e.bram

Timeos2:
If you bought a unit in Southcape with a mortgage you would need 100% of the owners to agree? You are saying nobody could buy a TS there using a mortgage.
I don't think so.


----------



## timeos2

e.bram said:


> Timeos2:
> If you bought a unit in Southcape with a mortgage you would need 100% of the owners to agree? You are saying nobody could buy a TS there using a mortgage.
> I don't think so.



That is correct. Timeshare loans are usually personal loans, not mortgages. But if someone COULD get a mortgage on a timeshare that would be legal as they control 100% of that deed for 1 week or x points of use.  They cannot commit the value of common areas, furnishings, buildings, etc - that belongs to the Association which no one entity has a right to commit to a lien/mortgage.  On the outside chance that the developer was only committing his week(s) of ownership then he could get a mortgage based on that BUT then they couldn't sell the use rights without disclosing the fact that there is an outstanding lien on them.  Instant no sale.  Still sounds like they are not within the law.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Does the mortgage company expect units to be sold?*



e.bram said:


> NEVM owners many units according to the posts here. They pledged those I assume and pay the mortgage from management fees. It is a fraud against the TS owners, not the bank. If they cause the TS to go belly up the bank will get their money and the rest will go to the developer. Also along with ownership of the TS units goes a fraction of the common ares. The developer also has title to from 30% TO 60% of the whole complex. good collateral for the bank.



This is probably a dumb question ... does the mortgage company expect NEVS to sell units?  If that is so, and NEVS entered into the mortgage agreement knowing that units would not be sold but the main push would be to sell Festiva points, would that also constitute fraud on their part?

If so, then the list keeps growing.

Another question ... just what does NEVS own?  Some people are of the opinion that NEVS owns the resorts.  I was under the impression that all that was purchased from Barth & Woods were the unsold units and the so-called 'developer rights'.  How can a few unsold weeks (mainly in the weeks the resort aren't even open) and whatever percentage of the common areas those unsold weeks represent be worth $2.5 million?  And, if NEVS is dependent on the management fees charged by NEVMS to pay the mortgage payments, would the mortgage company require some kind of proof or guarantee that NEVMS/NEVS would be retained and continue to run these resorts?  If so, what kind of guarantee could NEVS have provided to Colebrook Financial?  Or, does NEVS have someone or something in the background guaranteeing that mortgage?  Something like Festiva Resorts?


----------



## e.bram

Timeos2:
All of my TS deeds show a % of the common area which I own. 
All the bank cares is that they are getting their payments and have sufficient collateral to back up the principal. NEVS pays the bank with it's management fees. The fraud is against the TS owners, not the bank.


----------



## Sou13

If I'm understanding this, NEVS took out a $2.5 million mortgage on two resorts, and as weeks are being discharged they are being turned over to Festiva via Intercity Escrow Services.  *NEVS* gets 50% of every $2990 that weeks owners pay Outfield Marketing to "convert" to the FAC.  *NEVMS* gets paid by the owners' associations for "managing" the management of the resorts.  The entity responsible for paying off the mortgage is *NEVS*, not NEVMS.


----------



## Sou13

By now more than 700 weeks have been converted to Festiva points.  If NEVS collected nearly $1500 for each conversion, that's $1500 x 700 = $1,050,000 that NEVS has taken in to pay off the mortgage.  NEVS isn't halfway there!


----------



## judyjht

Here is the link to an article that was in the Boston Globe this morning - very interesting!

http://tinyurl.com/ye24fdp


----------



## Sou13

*Thanks for the link, judyjht!*

Thanks for the link, judyjht!  I don't have time to comment today but the reader comments seem to be  directed more at the Mitchells' sweaters than they are at the situation!


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, bill798!*

Now that I've had a little more time to read the article and reader comments, I don't know whether to cheer or to scream.  Had Jenifer McKim bothered to interview Southcape owners she might have been able to present a better picture of the NEVS/Outfield Marketing/Festiva mess.

bill798 wrote: 
Actually, it is illegal for Outfield Marketing to lie to owners that an imminent $8000 maintenance fee is coming, but you can avoid it if you quitclaim your deed and signup to ou club for only $4800 ($676 credit card now so we can get sales commissions) and the rest on a 14% loan. Outfield's general partner is METCO LLC, whose managers are Steve Lamantia, Mark Monroe, and Thomas Franks, who are also the new trustees of Sandcastle Condominium Trust, but this was never disclosed. 
See fraudulent concealment and fraudulent misrepresentation in the Massachusetts criminal code.

Thank you, bill798!


----------



## TUGBrian

article certainly makes it look like the new owners came in and are simply charging people to make necessary repairs.

interesting


----------



## ChrisH

Simply NOT true



Sou13 said:


> Now that I've had a little more time to read the article and reader comments, I don't know whether to cheer or to scream.  Had Jenifer McKim bothered to interview Southcape owners she might have been able to present a better picture of the NEVS/Outfield Marketing/Festiva mess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, she did interview at least one Southcape owner by phone prior to publishing this article, but evidently went with her original information from a Sandcastle owner and from then interviewing 10 or so more other Sandcastle owners.
> 
> Chris H
Click to expand...


----------



## Carolinian

timeos2 said:


> That is correct. Timeshare loans are usually personal loans, not mortgages. But if someone COULD get a mortgage on a timeshare that would be legal as they control 100% of that deed for 1 week or x points of use.  They cannot commit the value of common areas, furnishings, buildings, etc - that belongs to the Association which no one entity has a right to commit to a lien/mortgage.  On the outside chance that the developer was only committing his week(s) of ownership then he could get a mortgage based on that BUT then they couldn't sell the use rights without disclosing the fact that there is an outstanding lien on them.  Instant no sale.  Still sounds like they are not within the law.



There is nothing legally to stop a lender from accepting an undivided interest in real property as collateral for a loan.  Most do not simply for practical reasons, in that in can present a big mess if you have to foreclosure and then sell an undivided interest.  There tends to be much less of a market for undivided interests.


----------



## Carolinian

You need to get as many victims of this scam to complain to the local prosecutor as possible.



Sou13 said:


> Now that I've had a little more time to read the article and reader comments, I don't know whether to cheer or to scream.  Had Jenifer McKim bothered to interview Southcape owners she might have been able to present a better picture of the NEVS/Outfield Marketing/Festiva mess.
> 
> bill798 wrote:
> Actually, it is illegal for Outfield Marketing to lie to owners that an imminent $8000 maintenance fee is coming, but you can avoid it if you quitclaim your deed and signup to ou club for only $4800 ($676 credit card now so we can get sales commissions) and the rest on a 14% loan. Outfield's general partner is METCO LLC, whose managers are Steve Lamantia, Mark Monroe, and Thomas Franks, who are also the new trustees of Sandcastle Condominium Trust, but this was never disclosed.
> See fraudulent concealment and fraudulent misrepresentation in the Massachusetts criminal code.
> 
> Thank you, bill798!


----------



## Carolinian

NEVMSLLC said:


> It's not piracy, Carolinian, it's just ignorance of the facts and a perfect example of how far out the wild speculations, rumors and half truths can get.  If it weren't for the fact that some owners might actually believe some of the stuff that's posted on here it would be laughable.
> 
> NEVS owns ALL of the weeks in units 32 and 33!!  No weeks were ever sold in either of the units.  That's the fact.



If they were dedicated to timesharing, then they are NOT ''wholly owned''.  You may own 51 timeshare weeks or 50, depending on how many maintenance weeks the resort has, in those units, and you are required to pay m/f's on each and every one of them.  Do you?


----------



## Sou13

*Another clue forthcoming*

A Southcape owner who has saved all her meeting minutes read the 1989 report to me over the telephone.  She said she would copy them and mail them to me.

What's most interesting about this particular report is that it may shed some light on how Southcape got into a legal hassle as a result of a decision that was rendered in Provincetown.  It looks to me as though our troubles may have begun when Fred Sateriale got us mixed up with Sandcastle in 1987.

The photo gallery of the renovations going on at Sandcastle is at http://www.sandcastlecapecod.com/PhotoGalleryDetails.asp?cid=2&pg=1002

When did those "renovations" start?  Was it *after* the Sandcastle owners began paying the (illegally imposed) special assessment?


----------



## Sou13

*Contact me for Southcape documents*

The Southcape owner who sent me some meeting minutes that I seem to be missing has also included some other missing documents which I will scan and send to Southcape owners on my email list ASAP. Unfortunately this won't be until after Jan. 22 when the computer lab reopens for the next session.

*If you are not on my elist, please register to post on TUG so that you can email me to be included on my Southcape owners elist.*


----------



## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> A Southcape owner who has saved all her meeting minutes read the 1989 report to me over the telephone.  She said she would copy them and mail them to me.
> 
> What's most interesting about this particular report is that it may shed some light on how Southcape got into a legal hassle as a result of a decision that was rendered in Provincetown.  It looks to me as though our troubles may have begun when Fred Sateriale got us mixed up with Sandcastle in 1987.
> 
> The photo gallery of the renovations going on at Sandcastle is at http://www.sandcastlecapecod.com/PhotoGalleryDetails.asp?cid=2&pg=1002
> 
> When did those "renovations" start?  Was it *after* the Sandcastle owners began paying the (illegally imposed) special assessment?



I'm trying to find out what that tax dispute was all about and whether there are any other timeshare resorts in Provincetown.


----------



## Sou13

*Coakley's demise*

Now that AG Martha Coakley has lost the Senate seat to Republican Scott Brown, is there any hope for a review of our plight?


----------



## Sou13

*New ID for NEVMSLLC*

It appears that NEVMSLLC had taken on another username on TUG. Check out this discussion:

Brewster Green and IVS Realty


----------



## Sou13

*More NEVMSLLC troubles*

Isn't anyone objecting to not being able to split weeks anymore?

My last opportunity to reserve a split week came in May 2009, before we were notified that "effective immediately" no more split weeks reservations could be made in October.

Meanwhile, NEVMSLLC stated in a published response to Timesharing Today that "The resorts have not been taken away from anyone. Owners still have the same rights they’ve always had."

So now another of the rights we've always had has been taken away.

That's not all.  I had a call from Southcape about the unit I've reserved for week 7.  The entire building is being renovated, and the unit I reserved won't be completed by week 7.

This is exactly what I've been trying to get deeded owners to notice.  If you reserve a unit during a certain week, that unit is supposed to be available because *you own that week!*

Renovating 18 units at once when they've always been renovated "on a piecemeal basis" means that units will not be available, and to be renovating units during the week of school vacation is a violation of the Master Deed IMVHO.

Last year the pool was being repainted and deeded owners didn't have use of the pool in March.  This year, units are being renovated and deeded owners don't have the use of those units.

Hello, is anyone reading these posts?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sou13

You know very well the answers to your post because we discussed them during the two and a half hour meeting you, I and the resort manager had where we answered virtually all of your questions.  You've continued to take us to task for answers you say you never got but that's completely untrue.  You should know, you were at the meeting and the meeting was at your request.  You also agreed that, if you had additional questions, you would contact me and I would be happy to answer them for you.  So, why do you post your questions and comments here instead of asking me?

Split week reservations at Southcape Resort are not a "right" but a privilege that was extended to owners when there was availability.  There is no mention of split weeks anywhere in the condominium documents and we don't inform owners of split weeks as we're not authorized to even offer split weeks.  We've continued the practice on a limited basis as the previous trustees started doing it a few years ago even though it wasn't permitted by the documents.  As we improve the rental program and sell the weeks, there will eventually be no availability for a split week reservation.  We do make occasional exceptions for owners when we can but we need everyone to understand in advance that splitting your week was never intended nor included in your documents.  In fact, at our meeting, you specifically asked me if you could split your week and I told you that we would absolutely consider it depending upon availability and if your fees were current.  You might also want to consider that, when you split a week, you take half of two separate weeks and you prevent the resort from renting a full week and generating money from delinquent owners for much needed operating income.

As I also recall, you own a float week.  While you are deeded a specific week in a specific unit for ownership purposes, your documents specifically state that your occupancy rights are not for that specific unit but subject to what is available during the floating season when you make your reservation.  That is the entire function of a split week and floating time.  All of the units currently being renovated are "floating" units and no owner has been denied occupancy at all.

The documents are silent as to when units can be renovated and we schedule renovations during those times when we have units empty.  You have a float week and you've been given a high demand week to occupy during your float season (week 7) just as you always have. If you have made a split week reservation for week 7, you have prevented us from renting that week during a time when there is a lot of rental demand.  Nevertheless, we confirmed your request for a reservation simply because you are an owner and we try to accommodate owners whenever possible.  I can understand why you might not appreciate that and thank us for it but I'm surprised that you're criticizing us for bending over backwards to assist you. You are a deeded float owner and you do have use of a week when you want it in perhaps the highest demand week outside of summer so I frankly do not understand your complaint.


----------



## Sou13

*Reply to NEVMSLLC*



Sou13 said:


> Isn't anyone objecting to not being able to split weeks anymore?
> 
> My last opportunity to reserve a split week came in May 2009, before we were notified that "effective immediately" no more split weeks reservations could be made in October.
> 
> Meanwhile, NEVMSLLC stated in a published response to Timesharing Today that "The resorts have not been taken away from anyone. Owners still have the same rights they’ve always had."
> 
> So now another of the rights we've always had has been taken away.
> 
> That's not all.  I had a call from Southcape about the unit I've reserved for week 7.  The entire building is being renovated, and the unit I reserved won't be completed by week 7.
> 
> This is exactly what I've been trying to get deeded owners to notice.  If you reserve a unit during a certain week, that unit is supposed to be available because *you own that week!*
> 
> Renovating 18 units at once when they've always been renovated "on a piecemeal basis" means that units will not be available, and to be renovating units during the week of school vacation is a violation of the Master Deed IMVHO.
> 
> Last year the pool was being repainted and deeded owners didn't have use of the pool in March.  This year, units are being renovated and deeded owners don't have the use of those units.
> 
> Hello, is anyone reading these posts?


Glad to see that someone is reading these posts!

Yes, I do acknowledge that the split weeks are not a "right" and that we as float week owners cannot continue to enjoy splitting weeks *as the remaining inventory gets sold.*

The problem is that the remaining inventory is *not* being sold and the conversions to "points" not only involve splitting weeks but also I was told by Frank Rose that FAC members can check in on Friday at Southcape!



Sou13 said:


> *We don't sell weeks, we sell points.*
> 
> It's been a year since my close call with Greg Hughes at Southcape Resort and I'm back from my 4-day stay.  Here's the latest:
> 
> There's a big sign in the clubhouse next to the reception area that gives the impression that if you make an appointment with "owner services" in Unit 32 there are weeks for sale at Southcape and Sandcastle Resorts.  The Sandcastle weeks are supposed to be available for the "balance owed" or something to that effect.  Because I didn't check in on Saturday, I wasn't offered a $50 gift card at check-in for making an appointment.  But Frank in owner services was able to squeeze me in Friday morning, and when he learned that I knew about New England Vacation Services and the FAC he didn't put me through any presentation, just answered or tried to answer my questions.
> 
> The first question was, how much are they asking for a week, to which the reply is that they don't sell weeks, they sell points.  I hope I get this right because Frank is going to check up on my report.  So here goes and you can decide what to make of it:
> 
> "Nobody is selling deeded weeks anymore.  The United States is the only country where you can buy a deeded week that you own forever.  At most you can own a week for 30 years.  The timeshare deeded weeks have gone out like the VCR and I won't sell you a VCR either."
> 
> Frank is paid by Outfield Marketing to either sell me points for one of the weeks owned by New England Vacation Services or to tell me what a wonderful opportunity I will be missing if I don't convert my deeded week to points in the FAC.  New England Vacation Services would supposedly be doing Southcape weeks owners a disservice if they hadn't made a deal with Festiva.
> 
> When you enter his office you see one of the beautiful wood-inlaid boat pictures that have been removed from units 1-31.  According to Frank that was the only one that hadn't been damaged by guests' children.
> 
> Someone put notices under guests' doors for two or three weeks last summer.  These notices cost Outfield Marketing big bucks in lost sales.  I told Frank that this was all news to me but did ask him to make a copy of one for me, which he did.
> 
> According to Frank, there's a lot of misinformation on TUG and it's no longer worth the time to read our discussions.  He finds them almost laughable.
> 
> I was completely unaware that only owners of units 1-31 have "float" weeks.  Weeks in units 32-55 are all fixed weeks.  Float weeks are a bad idea which is why units 32-55 are all fixed weeks and have a different master deed.  The entire resort needs to be united under one master deed.
> 
> Festiva isn't about to "take over" Southcape and the whole idea of complaining to the Attorney General is unfounded according to Frank.
> 
> Here's the selling point that I can't comprehend.  Southcape Resort has check-in on Saturday but if you are a Festiva points member you can stay from Friday to Sunday and if you reserve less than 30 days in advance you can stay more than 7 nights per year.  The reason I argued with him about this is that in order for anyone to stay from Friday to Sunday, there have to be two weeks available and as the weeks get sold that is less likely to happen.
> 
> The before and after pictures that were on display at the owners' meeting are now on display in owner services.  Everyone is so impressed with what a wonderful job New England Vacations Services has done at Southcape *by assessing us for doing it!*  So New England Vacation Services bought 550 unsold weeks at Southcape Resort at a "fixer-upper" price and then charged the maintenance-fee-paying owners for fixing up their units!  And the way they "convinced" weeks owners to convert to points was to tell them that they would not have to pay the special assessments that would have to be levied on weeks owners in order to do it.
> 
> Frank used a calculator and found that the owner of 6 float weeks got the best deal.  Since this discussion is about what kind of offers weeks owners were being made I can finally report that there is only one base Festiva MF per member and the # of points owned determine what the MF will be per year.  While six deeded weeks have six MFs the Festiva member pays one base MF which will be going up this year.  The owner of the 6 weeks that were converted to Festiva points paid one conversion fee of $2990 and 6 processing fees of $195.  No wonder she sold out to Festiva!


----------



## e.bram

Notwithstanding any written document, any continual action (split weeks)between parties can become a legal right . and curtailing such a right by either party could be considered a violation of such a right.


----------



## Sou13

*Split weeks*

I've been working on some meeting minutes and notifications from the early years at Southcape Resort and hope to have them availabe by email soon.  According to these documents, split weeks, while not a "right" set forth in the Master Deed, have been a practice for float weeks owners that has existed from the earliest years to the takeover by NEVS.  When I discussed our rights with Cliff Hagberg over the telephone a year ago, he was surprised to learn that Southcape float week owners were able to split weeks.  At that time he told me that the practices in place would remain in place for the time being, and he emailed me the link to the Master Deed.  That link was taken off the Southcape Resort website when it was "improved" but TUGBrian provided us with a link to it which I would like to see as a "sticky" to this discussion.

I find it odd that I should be taken to task for splitting the school vacation week, since by splitting the week I have actually made 4 days available for rent during one of the higher demand weeks!  Had I chosen to reserve the entire week for myself, I could have rented it out and charged whatever I could get for it, but now it's available for rent to offset maintenace costs for the Community Association, not NEVS.

Furthermore, I have indicated that I am willing to occupy a unit that may have unmatched drapes and furniture because that's the unit I reserved and that's the unit I expect to be able to occupy.

If anyone wants to pay me a visit, I'll be in unit 21 (508-477-4700x121) the weekend of Feb. 13-15 and would enjoy meeting you!


----------



## Sou13

*SouthCapers Vol. I No. 2 Summer 1983*

Found today in a pile of papers was a publication over a quarter-century old!  Of interest to float week owners who have been told we are no longer able to split weeks is "Lead Time Maximum for Float Week Reservations Lengthened to 18 Months" on p. 2:

*Lead Time Maximum for Float Week Reservations Lengthened to 18 Months *​ 
For owner convenience in planning, Southcape Resort & Club has increased the amount of time a Float Week owner may make reservations in advance from nine months to eighteen months.  As an example, you could now make a reservation for Christmas of 1984 as early as the 4th of July, this year.

The minimum advance notice for a stay at the Resort is still only seven days for either of two periods into which a Float Week may be split.

One period may contain three days to include Saturday, Sunday and Monday.  The other period, if the owner has elected to split his Float Week, must contain the balance of four days, with check-in on Tuesday and check-out Saturday morning.​
Split weeks may be a "privilege" but this "privilege" has been in practice for more than a quarter of a century which makes it disingenuous  to state that "Owners still have the same rights they’ve always had."


----------



## Sou13

NEVMSLLC said:


> Sou13
> 
> You know very well the answers to your post because we discussed them during the two and a half hour meeting you, I and the resort manager had where we answered virtually all of your questions.  You've continued to take us to task for answers you say you never got but that's completely untrue.  You should know, you were at the meeting and the meeting was at your request.  You also agreed that, if you had additional questions, you would contact me and I would be happy to answer them for you.  So, why do you post your questions and comments here instead of asking me?
> 
> Split week reservations at Southcape Resort are not a "right" but a privilege that was extended to owners when there was availability.  There is no mention of split weeks anywhere in the condominium documents and we don't inform owners of split weeks as we're not authorized to even offer split weeks.  We've continued the practice on a limited basis as the previous trustees started doing it a few years ago even though it wasn't permitted by the documents.  As we improve the rental program and sell the weeks, there will eventually be no availability for a split week reservation.  We do make occasional exceptions for owners when we can but we need everyone to understand in advance that splitting your week was never intended nor included in your documents.  In fact, at our meeting, you specifically asked me if you could split your week and I told you that we would absolutely consider it depending upon availability and if your fees were current.  You might also want to consider that, when you split a week, you take half of two separate weeks and you prevent the resort from renting a full week and generating money from delinquent owners for much needed operating income.
> 
> As I also recall, you own a float week.  While you are deeded a specific week in a specific unit for ownership purposes, your documents specifically state that your occupancy rights are not for that specific unit but subject to what is available during the floating season when you make your reservation.  That is the entire function of a split week and floating time.  All of the units currently being renovated are "floating" units and no owner has been denied occupancy at all.
> 
> The documents are silent as to when units can be renovated and we schedule renovations during those times when we have units empty.  You have a float week and you've been given a high demand week to occupy during your float season (week 7) just as you always have. If you have made a split week reservation for week 7, you have prevented us from renting that week during a time when there is a lot of rental demand.  Nevertheless, we confirmed your request for a reservation simply because you are an owner and we try to accommodate owners whenever possible.  I can understand why you might not appreciate that and thank us for it but I'm surprised that you're criticizing us for bending over backwards to assist you. You are a deeded float owner and you do have use of a week when you want it in perhaps the highest demand week outside of summer so I frankly do not understand your complaint.


Rosaleen claims that there are no meeting minutes for me to copy while at Southcape next week and that she'd appreciate having copies of the meeting minutes I've shared with Southcape owners!  She also claims that while I am free to examine the trustees' meeting minutes, I can't make copies of them!  That's odd to me in view of the fact that I have copies of trustees' meeting minutes that she claims she doesn't have.

I agree that the documents do not specify when renovations are to be done, but common sense tells me that when they're all being done at once the float weeks owners are being denied access to the weeks of their choice, and that the same thing will be happening in seven years if not sooner.


----------



## Carolinian

Have the very specific citation of the state corporate law that entitles you by law to those minutes to give to her.  Demand an answer on whether the corporation intends to flount your legal rights from the chief commissar of NEVS himself!





Sou13 said:


> Rosaleen claims that there are no meeting minutes for me to copy while at Southcape next week and that she'd appreciate having copies of the meeting minutes I've shared with Southcape owners!  She also claims that while I am free to examine the trustees' meeting minutes, I can't make copies of them!  That's odd to me in view of the fact that I have copies of trustees' meeting minutes that she claims she doesn't have.
> 
> I agree that the documents do not specify when renovations are to be done, but common sense tells me that when they're all being done at once the float weeks owners are being denied access to the weeks of their choice, and that the same thing will be happening in seven years if not sooner.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

*Minutes*



Carolinian said:


> Have the very specific citation of the state corporate law that entitles you by law to those minutes to give to her.  Demand an answer on whether the corporation intends to flount your legal rights from the chief commissar of NEVS himself!



What Sou13 forgot to mention, which she knows, is that the reason there are no minutes available is because the previous trustees never held a trustee meeting.


----------



## Sou13

*That's not quite what I meant*

That's not quite what I meant about the missing meeting minutes.  I have copies of annual meeting minutes and trustees' meeting minutes from 1984-85 but from that time on I have no meeting minutes, only reports that were included with annual assessment bills.  Rosaleen claims that there are no meeting minutes from 1986 on and that she'd appreciate copies of whatever I've been able to obtain from other Southcape owners.  It may be that there were no minutes, but there definitely were trustees' meetings!  If there were no trustees' meetings, how did the sale to NEVS come about?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

NEVS did not purchase anything from the trustees.  NEVS purchased the inventory owned by Bob Woods and Vince Barth who also happened to be the trustees.  The sale did not require a trustee meeting.

We have been able to find no evidence of a trustee meeting since Woods and Barth took over 1988.  We have spoken with other "trustees" and they were unable to remember any meetings taking place as well.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13 said:


> It may be that there were no minutes, but there definitely were trustees' meetings!  If there were no trustees' meetings, how did the sale to NEVS come about?



Cliff is in spin mode again. Would there not have to be a trustee's meeting to approve the change in the management company? 

And without a trustee's meeting, how are the current trustees properly seated?  Seems like you would need a meeting for a change of trustees would need to take place. Or are Barth and Woods still trustees? Likewise, on the officers of the corporation. The HOA corporation was not purchased. 

Cliff is just making this stuff up as he goes along. No regard for proper procedure, due process, or the derivative rights of the owners (shareholders).

His defense will be "well the other guys never did this stuff. Why are you holding me accountable?". Same old, same old.

Only thing that is changing is the calendar.


----------



## Sou13

*How do you explain this?*

*If the sale was by Barth and Woods to NEVS and did not involve "trustees" how do you explain this:*

DOCUMENT ABSTRACT 
Bk-Pg:23138-104    Recorded: 09-04-2008 @ 3:44:18pm  Inst #: 46642  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N


Pages in document: 3 
Grp: 1 
Type: Assignment 
Desc: FALMOUTH RD 

Town: MASHPEE  Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD 

Gtor: BARTH, VINCENT J (AS ID TR BY AY) (Gtor) 

Gtor: WOODS, ROBERT P (AS ID AS TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (&O) (Gtor) 

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee) 


 Return addr:  DUNNING KIRRANE MCNICHOLS & GARNER LLP 
  REGISTRY BOX # 9 
  P. O. BOX 560 
  MASHPEE, MA 02649 


Recording Fee: 50.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00


----------



## Sou13

*"Owner advisory board"*



			
				NEVMSLLC said:
			
		

> As Sou13 will tell you, I am in the process of setting up an owner advisory board that will consist of individual unit owners.  I don't know of a single developer anywhere that has anything like this at all.  I means a lot more work for me but I think it's worth it.  I have a list of potential volunteers and I will finalize the board after the annual meeting when I know who is interested in serving.  This board will serve several functions.  They will act as a "phantom" board and be involved in providing input into all decisions at Southcape.  When the time comes to turn over the board to the owners, we will have a group of experienced volunteers who will be available to stand for election.  They will know the resort, the process, the problems, the solutions and will hopefully continue the work we've begun in making Southcape the best resort possible.  My hope is that, if I've done a good job, they'll keep me.  If I haven't, they should throw me out.  Now there's an incentive - I like my job!


I've learned from Rosaleen that the owner advisory board has been selected and is supposed to be meeting *April 10, 2010*.

Now's the time to make our voices heard to this "advisory" board, and the best approach is here IMVHO, especially since the members have been selected, not elected.  Whoever is on the board may be reading these posts, as you can see from the above posts by NEVMSLLC.

I found out about the upcoming meeting by meeting with Rosaleen while at Southcape.  I hope that the trustees' meeting minutes will be made available to the "advisory" board members in a better way than they were made available to me.  I barely had time to skim through them while Rosaleen sat next to me, having made me aware that she had other things to do (she did it nicely but made her point).

I find it odd, strange, and curious that I'm now being told that there were no minutes of annual owners' meetings because I have copies of the "minutes" from 2007 and 2008 that Rosaleen had sent me, as well as the compiled financial statements from 2006-2008.

So now that I've provided Rosaleen with copies of all the annual meeting minutes, trustees' meeting minutes, financial reports, budgets, newsletters, etc. that I've been sharing here and to my email subscribers, they should be available for Southcape owners' review.

If any Southcape owner reading this discussion is not registered to post, I'm encouraging you to do so.  It's free and gives you access to contact all other Southcape owners who've posted here.  If you contact me I'll give you the list of all the Southcape owners I've contacted through TUG.

Here are some important resources for Southcape owners:
Southcape Condo I Master Deed
Massachusetts Corporations Search
Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access


----------



## Sou13

*"Privacy rights" at Southcape Resort*

See Post  #354 for how "privacy rights" are being protected at Southcape Resort!

I had an unfortunate experience of learning that non-owners seem to have more "privacy rights" than owners.  I was taken to task for invading the "privacy" of a non-owner who had signed the pool use book but then was made to feel "uncomfortable" when I asked her whether she was an owner.  I later found out that not only was she a non-owner, but also that the person whose name she'd used as an owner had converted to Festiva just two weeks earlier!

I hope that this matter will come to the attention of the "advisory committee" and that not all the members were selected because they approve of NEVS and NEVMS!


----------



## NEVMSLLC

The fact of the matter is, that is not the status of the woman you spoke to in the pool.  We also had several complaints about your harassing people at the resort with your complaints and you were asked to stop bothering the other owners and guests.  Your actions will be brought up to the advisory committee.


----------



## ecwinch

Sou13,

You still have a constitutional right to free speech, as long as you are not infringing the rights of your fellow owners or harming anyone. Given that Cliff has decided that the members register cannot be provided to the owners, you really have no other reasonable option for communicating with your fellow owners.

So your contact of fellow owners would likely be viewed in that context. It is analogous to someone going door to door in a neighborhood.

Now your actions have to be reasonable. So asking if they are owners, and if they interested in learning more is not "harassing". You just have to be respectful of the rights of your fellow owners while they are in the common areas.

You also have a right to due process if Cliff attempts to take punitive action against you as the tone of his post implies. Per the by-laws, they have to provide you with reasonable notice, the right to be heard, and any suspension cannot last for more than 60 days. The reasonable notice would logically have to identify which portion of the rules and regulations you are accused of violating. When you ask someone if they are an owner, just be sure to not be uttering a disturbing noise at the same time. So avoid rebel yells, pig grunts, or howling.

Cliff should also be mindful of making false accusations. As he noted on a similar issue - "harassment" implies a particular legal meaning. Especially given his official position at Southcape.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Communicating with owners is fine with me. Harassment (the word used by the complaining owners) is not.  The entire situation was handled by resort management and I was not involved, nor was I even aware of the problem as I was out of state at the time. No "punitive" action was taken or even considered.  Management simply asked her to stop harassing people and she agreed.  No big deal.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> The fact of the matter is, that is not the status of the woman you spoke to in the pool.  We also had several complaints about your harassing people at the resort with your complaints and you were asked to stop bothering the other owners and guests.  *Your actions will be brought up to the advisory committee.*





NEVMSLLC said:


> No "punitive" action was taken or *even considered.*.... No big deal.



Then why bring her actions up to the advisory committee?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Sou13 said:


> See Post  #354 for how "privacy rights" are being protected at Southcape Resort!
> 
> I had an unfortunate experience of learning that non-owners seem to have more "privacy rights" than owners.  I was taken to task for invading the "privacy" of a non-owner who had signed the pool use book but then was made to feel "uncomfortable" when I asked her whether she was an owner.  I later found out that not only was she a non-owner, but also that the person whose name she'd used as an owner had converted to Festiva just two weeks earlier!
> 
> I hope that this matter will come to the attention of the "advisory committee" and that not all the members were selected because they approve of NEVS and NEVMS!



As you can see above, she hoped the matter will come to the attention of the advisory committee, and it will, along with all of her comments and actions.


----------



## ecwinch

I think you are avoided the question. What is the advisory committee going to do?  And since she is going to be the subject of their discussion, is this an invitation for her to appear before the committee to ensure the information presented is balanced?

And I think you are misinterpreting Sou13's meaning. For her post is:

"non-owners seem to have more "privacy rights" than owners"

That a non-owner caused her to be "taken to task" for her asking if the guest was an owner. Because the guest was made to  feel "uncomfortable". That the rights of a guest are superior to any right the owner has to communicate with their fellow owners. 

And that is a situation of your own making. Her actions are as a direct result your denial of Sou13's legitimate request under the by-laws for access to the members registers. If you do not want Sou13 to ask the question, then stop violating the by-laws of the resort. Then the problem will be solved.


----------



## e.bram

If SOU13 was thinking of running for a position on the BOD, she has every right to poll and campaign among the owners at the TS (or those she perceives as owners or future owners). Like any other politician running  for a political office.(public or private)


----------



## NEVMSLLC

You guys are still too funny!  Talk about mountains out of molehills.

The resort manager had several complaints, more than just the "alleged" non-owner.  She spoke to Sou13.  Sou13 was very cooperative, the problems stopped.  End of story.  I wasn't even there.

Geez, it's not like it was a civil rights demonstration!!


----------



## e.bram

Harassing a campaigner is not OK. It is like the mayor of a town threatening a rival from campaigning with arrest if they campaign in front of city hall or Boston Commons because some of his syncopants are annoyed. where does anyone expect SOU13 to campaign for a BOD office if not at the TS.On Boston Commons?


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> You guys are still too funny!  Talk about mountains out of molehills.
> 
> The resort manager had several complaints, more than just the "alleged" non-owner.  She spoke to Sou13.  Sou13 was very cooperative, the problems stopped.  End of story.  I wasn't even there.
> 
> Geez, it's not like it was a civil rights demonstration!!



Only because Sou13 is a reasonable person and she agreed to the resort manager's unreasonable request.

She should have told them to pound sand. As an owner she has every right in the world to ask other guests if they are owners. I sincerely doubt that the Resort Manager would have reacted if Sou13 was asking so she could encourage then to join FAC.  

Why don't you ask guests what do they feel is more annoying, Sou13 asking them if they are owners, or having to get a parking pass from the sales guy scam?  Or are you still maintaining that owners never complain about the FAC sales guy?


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Ah, building a straw man once again, huh, Eric?


----------



## ecwinch

No, just trying to counter the effects of your perpetual spin machine.

You leave Sou13 these posts that are borderline threatening, i.e.

"Your actions will be brought up to the advisory committee."
"..and it will, along with all of her comments and actions."

When you are the one that is unjustly benefiting from an unconscionable contract that would be unlikely to remain intact if the owners challenged it. But to preclude that from occurring, you ignore the by-laws to prevent the owners from communicating with each other. And then you repeat second-hand information that she is "harassing people at the resort", to cast her in an unfavorable light.

This thread has gone on far to long for people not see things for what they are. Your spin machine does not prevent that.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Finally, this will be my last communication again with you Eric.  If you'd like to continue communicating, buy a week, become an owner and perhaps you should actually read the documents before offering your pseudo-legal opinions of contracts you've never seen.

Sou13 wanted her questions, comments and opinions brought to the attention of the advisory committee and I've agreed.  I've only said that they will be presented with everything, including both her criticisms and her actions.  All owner concerns will be discussed with the advisory committee as they are with the trustees.  Only you could turn that into problem.  Talk about spin . . .


----------



## Fig

NEVMSLLC said:


> Finally, this will be my last communication again with you Eric.  If you'd like to continue communicating, buy a week, become an owner and perhaps you should actually read the documents before offering your pseudo-legal opinions of contracts you've never seen.
> 
> Sou13 wanted her questions, comments and opinions brought to the attention of the advisory committee and I've agreed.  I've only said that they will be presented with everything, including both her criticisms and her actions.  All owner concerns will be discussed with the advisory committee as they are with the trustees.  Only you could turn that into problem.  Talk about spin . . .



Hey, while we've got you on the line here Cliff, care to comment on why your broker's license was suspended in Massachusetts? 

Real Estate Sales & Brokers Broker 

125373 CLIFFORD HAGBERG HYANNIS, MA License Suspended 

Licensing Board: Real Estate Sales & Brokers 
License Type: Broker 
License Number: 125373 
Status: License Suspended 

We are all just a little curious here.


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Finally, this will be my last communication again with you Eric.  If you'd like to continue communicating, buy a week, become an owner and *perhaps you should actually read the documents before offering your pseudo-legal opinions* of contracts you've never seen.



Cliff, as usual you are wrong. I have thoroughly read the Master Deed and Declaration document. 

And trust me, I have given a lot of thought to buying a week and filing a pro se action. But the first thing your attorney would assert is that I purchased with full knowledge of the situation. Judges do not like plaintiffs that seek out injury.

And that I am offering "pseudo-legal" opinions is comical coming from someone who says that a state statute can be ignored on the basis of the "federal privacy laws". That is almost like those guys who refuse to file tax returns because income taxes violates the US constitution. If you think there is a conflict between Section 32 and these "federal privacy laws", then go to court and obtain an injunction against Sou13's request for the Members register. If it is such a slam dunk, a judge should be able to decide it in 10 minutes. He would look at the state statute and these "federal privacy laws" and make a decision. Federal law trumps state law, so it should be pretty simple. Then your denial would be legal, as it is protected by court order. If the law is so clear, then it is an easy action, particularly against a Pro Se defendant. 

But you will not do that, because he would rule against you. Because it is specifically authorized under Section 32.  Because the members register contains the same information that is on PTA rosters and the phone book. I guess most schools and the phone company are violating these "federal privacy laws". Someday ask your lawyer to explain "federal privacy laws" to you. They apply to banks and finance companies. The Federal Privacy Act only applies to government agencies. Only in your "pseudo-legal" world can you violate the by-laws and state statute on that basis. Your day will come. The case in California is making it through the appeal system. Eventually it will end this "privacy laws" fraud you developers hide  behind.

And you have made that statement before (last post). I think it is as truthful as most things you say. Anytime the spin machine gets going, you feel the need to respond to those that try to dispel it's effect.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Finally, just so people will realize that, while you sound good, you really don't know what you're talking about, I will make the following points.

1.  The resort documents do not address owners having access to information about other owners at all.  If you had read them, you would already know this.  About this and other issues you've commented on, you either didn't read them fully or you didn't understand them.  I have no idea which is correct.  Perhaps you could correct me and tell me where in the documents this issue is covered?  There are a number of areas that are addressed by the documents where you've offered your opinions and your opinions are simply wrong.

2.  I agree that it's a matter for the courts and, what you don't seem to know is, we are already in court for a determination as to what needs to be done.  You and I actually agree that going to court is the correct procedure.  Far from believing a judge will rule against the resort's position, we are confident that our position will be upheld and there is precedent, you just don't seem to be aware of that.  You are also unaware of the fact that our position is being supported by almost every other resort and management company in Massachusetts.  It's not just us.  An injunction against Sou13 would mean nothing as the matter needs to be decided definitively.  I would suggest that even you would agree with the actions of management and the trustees in letting a court make the decision.  I have never said that state laws should be ignored.  Only that, when there are laws that conflict, a ruling from a court of competent jurisdiction would help the trustees in meeting their fiduciary responsibility to protect the interests of all owners.

3.  Despite your claim, I have no record of Sou13 making a formal request for the information.

4.  It's not just the federal privacy laws, it involves state privacy laws, FTC regulations and others as well.  Chapter 183B was written well before there were problems with identity theft, etc. and it needs to be updated.

5.  Since you are not an attorney, how could your legal opinions be anything other than the opinions of a lay person?  If you were an attorney, you might not be so profligate with your comments.  I do agree that you toss out legal jargon that gives the appearance of being an "expert" but you are often simply wrong.

6.  We are not in violation of any state or federal statute other than this issue and, as I've stated, we're asking the court for direction and a ruling on what should be done - an action of which I expect you would approve.

7.  You also seem unaware of the fact that the condominium documents were written prior to the enactment of 183B and are therefore grandfathered.

8.  Your comparison with the phone book is just to silly to even warrant comment.  Go ahead and ask a school for the information about their students and see what they tell you. Better yet, ask your bank for the information about their other depositors.  Really, go ahead and give it a try and let me know where you get.

9.  The problem you can't seem to get over is that I do tell you the truth.  You then obscure the truth by raising side issues, offering opinions about issues you know nothing about and generally giving readers the impression that your comments actually have some sort of legal force and effect when they don't.

I respond when you, Sou13 and others make statements that are untrue and/or misleading.  I find it particularly disturbing to have someone like you, who is not even an owner, offering opinions that are simply untrue and/or uniformed.  Those are the areas where I post in order to let people know what the facts really are.


----------



## Fig

"I would suggest that even you would agree with the actions of management and the trustees in letting a court make the decision.  I have never said that state laws should be ignored."

In this case the "management" and "trustees" are not what they are at most resorts. They are you and a few other people who have gotten over a million dollars by some estimates by allowing/promoting the tangled mess of Festiva Resorts and Outfield Marketing with the blessing of "management" and/or "trustees" who are, in some cases, interchangable entities who pocket the proceeds, to get owners to actually pay to give up their deeds. By stalling through court action you can continue to sell points at thousands a pop. This is where the real money is made...you have not made much money according to legal documents selling inventory as you often say is the plan...yet you, Steve, and Tom "trustees and management" have pocketed a hefty sum off of points...to the extent you can hold off giving over a list, the income continues. Your attempt to bolster your privacy concerns by having other "owners" post here about privacy issues, who none other the TUG board owner traced to your IP address, spoke volumes about how you operate, Cliff.


----------



## ecwinch

Here is my response to your points:



NEVMSLLC said:


> Finally, just so people will realize that, while you sound good, you really don't know what you're talking about, I will make the following points.
> 
> 1.  The resort documents do not address owners having access to information about other owners at all.  If you had read them, you would already know this.  About this and other issues you've commented on, you either didn't read them fully or you didn't understand them.  I have no idea which is correct.  Perhaps you could correct me and tell me where in the documents this issue is covered?  There are a number of areas that are addressed by the documents where you've offered your opinions and your opinions are simply wrong.



Per paragraph 11. Books, accounts, and *RECORDS* of the Interval Ownership Program shall be open to inspection...

The members register is clearly a record of the Interval Ownership Program that is subject to inspection.



NEVMSLLC said:


> 2.  I agree that it's a matter for the courts and, what you don't seem to know is, *#1)* we are already in court for a determination as to what needs to be done.  You and I actually agree that going to court is the correct procedure.  Far from believing a judge will rule against the resort's position, we are confident that our position will be upheld and *#2)* there is precedent, you just don't seem to be aware of that. *#3)* You are also unaware of the fact that our position is being supported by almost every other resort and management company in Massachusetts.  It's not just us.  An injunction against Sou13 would mean nothing as the matter needs to be decided definitively.  I would suggest that even you would agree with the actions of management and the trustees in letting a court make the decision.  I have never said that state laws should be ignored.  Only that, when there are laws that conflict, a ruling from a court of competent jurisdiction would help the trustees in meeting their fiduciary responsibility to protect the interests of all owners.



1. I think that is great that you are seeking an opinion on that issue. I do not see a case in the MA system right now, so what venue are you pursuing this action in?
2. The only current precedent in the US is in FL, and is specific to FL timeshare law that the members register cannot be shared. MA does not have that prohibition against release. If you have another case that I have missed, please provide the specifics.
3.  Of course other developers would support your position. They have a vested interest in doing so, just as credit companies resisted the recent lending reform. What is that indicative of?



NEVMSLLC said:


> 3.  Despite your claim, I have no record of Sou13 making a formal request for the information.


No member has ever requested the members register or it is that have not made a "formal" request? I seem to recall Sou13 posting that she has attempted to inspect the members register. Have you specified the process for a formal request?



NEVMSLLC said:


> 4.  It's not just the federal privacy laws, it involves state privacy laws, FTC regulations and others as well.  Chapter 183B was written well before there were problems with identity theft, etc. and it needs to be updated.


Can you cite one specific law that conflicts with the clear language of Section 32?



NEVMSLLC said:


> 7.  You also seem unaware of the fact that the condominium documents were written prior to the enactment of 183B and are therefore grandfathered.


The fact that Southcape was formed prior to the enactment of 183B does not mean you are exempt from all provisions of the statute. Specifically it says:

"this chapter does not invalidate or otherwise affect rights or obligations vested under said chapter one hundred and eighty-three"

And in a similar case where a party suggested that 183B did not apply (SMUGGLERS' BEACH RESORT, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. THE ROTHCHILD GROUP, INC) the MA Court of Appeals said:

_The Condominium was technically established under G.L. c. 183A, as it predates the enactment of G.L. c. 183B. Accordingly, it is governed by both statutes._

Not that is was exempt from 183B. If your attorney is telling you it is blanket immunity, then you need new counsel. For instance, you cannot violate the provisions of 183B related to timeshare sales on the basis that you are "grandfathered" in. Section 32 is the same. The case you want your lawyer to review is Tiffany v. Sturbridge Camping Club, Inc.

Regardless, the inspection rights were already in your Declaration prior to 183B.



NEVMSLLC said:


> 8.  Your comparison with the phone book is just to silly to even warrant comment.  Go ahead and ask a school for the information about their students and see what they tell you. Better yet, ask your bank for the information about their other depositors.  Really, go ahead and give it a try and let me know where you get.



That is correct, a school would not give a student list out to non-students. That is the important distinction here, as the request is from other members. That and the rest of your argument seems like a strawman. For I never suggested that a bank would give out depositor information.


----------



## NEVMSLLC

Once again, Eric, you misquote me and then attack me on the misquote.  Not fair!  I said that the resort was grandfathered, not exempt from 183B.

There can be an honest disagreement about what represents a record of the resort and that is why we're asking a court for a ruling.  For example, we could not allow owners to inspect employee records as that would be unlawful.  We are not making the determination, we're asking for the court to do that.

I do not have the exact hearing date handy but I believe it's sometime this May.  None of the other resorts that support our position have a developer.  They are ALL sold out resorts and either self managed or managed by a professional management company.  We haven't even spoken to other developers about the issue.

Once again, I've never claimed exemption from 183B only grandfathering.  I am familiar with both the Smuggler's case and the Tiffany case.  FYI the association attorney is not telling us that we are "exempt" and don't have to hand out the owner information.  He says that with the conflicting laws, we're liable to get sued no matter what we do.  That is why we are asking for clarification from the courts so as not to expose the resort to additional liability.

I'm sorry to hear that privacy rights are not high on your list of priorities.

Goodbye, Eric


----------



## ecwinch

NEVMSLLC said:


> Once again, Eric, you misquote me and then attack me on the misquote.  Not fair!  I said that the resort was grandfathered, not exempt from 183B.
> 
> There can be an honest disagreement about what represents a record of the resort and that is why we're asking a court for a ruling.  For example, we could not allow owners to inspect employee records as that would be unlawful.  We are not making the determination, we're asking for the court to do that.
> 
> I do not have the exact hearing date handy but I believe it's sometime this May.  None of the other resorts that support our position have a developer.  They are ALL sold out resorts and either self managed or managed by a professional management company.  We haven't even spoken to other developers about the issue.
> 
> Once again, I've never claimed exemption from 183B only grandfathering.  I am familiar with both the Smuggler's case and the Tiffany case.  FYI the association attorney is not telling us that we are "exempt" and don't have to hand out the owner information.  He says that with the conflicting laws, we're liable to get sued no matter what we do.  That is why we are asking for clarification from the courts so as not to expose the resort to additional liability.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear that privacy rights are not high on your list of priorities.
> 
> Goodbye, Eric



Cliff,

You consistently have presented this "Grandfathering" issue as the basis of  for your actions. If not, then why even bring it up in response to my post in regard to owner rights to the member list.

And unfortunately your response is short on specifics. What is venue for the court action?  And in a court action, both sides of the issue need to presented. So what party is presenting the other side in this court action?

Likewise, what is the specific conflicting law that prevents owner name, address, and phone from being disseminated to owners for the purpose of communicating with each other?

And please do not bring employee information into this conversation. Section 32 does not grant owners authority to access that information. You can comply with Section 32, and still maintain your policy on other data. 

Nor should you assume I do not care about privacy rights. But we are talking about the each same information that is in the phone book (name, address, phone number). Does the phone book violate federal policy laws?


----------



## Sou13

*Elizabeth NcNichols*



			
				JackB62 said:
			
		

> Sou 13, thanks again for organizing old minutes and condo info. This latest one almost came close to resolving our questions about new owners, Trust, etc.
> 
> Just as a note, in the meeting minutes above, item # 3 mentions Elizabeth McNichols. She wrote most of the original Master Deed and Trust for Southcape.
> 
> We however, cannot hire her to help us because she is currently working with NEVS. That does not bode well for us.
> 
> It does make us realize that we will need some legal help to fight the battle.http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=717141&postcount=558


Thank you, ecwinch and Fig, for your contributions to this discussion.

I've been reviewing archives which I hope to make available to the advisory committee members, whoever they are (I neglected to ask Rosaleen).

The reason I'm citing JackB62's post is that one of the notes I made about the trustees' meeting minutes was that Elizabeth McNichols is no longer the resort's attorney.  She has been replaced by Robert Bianchi. (I found an interesting photo of Elizabeth McNichols Dunning who looks too young to be the attorney cited above).  She is still serving as the Clerk of the Corporation according to the results of the Corporations Search, and no Annual Report has been filed for 2009.

On the same page as JackB62's post above are posted minutes of trustees' meetings, minutes Rosaleen claimed not to have and appreciated being able to copy mine.

I'm assuming that the reason I had to be at the resort in order to "examine" the current trustees' meeting minutes was probably so that I wouldn't be able to post them here.

When I asked Rosaleen about the advisory committee, I reminded her that I had indicated that I was still interested in serving on the committee *or as an advisor to the advisors.*

If the advisors want to hear my version of what actually happened I will be happy to attend the meeting.  If the woman enjoying the use of the pool hadn't claimed that her father had been appointed to the Board in December there would have been no reason for her to feel "uncomfortable" and I wouldn't have even asked Rosaleen to let me look over the trustees' meeting minutes, because she (Rosaleen) had told me that the advisory committee would be meeting April 10 and I had said that the advisors could review the minutes and I didn't need to.

Let me explain what I see as the problem here.  When I was in the clubhouse I noted that when people sign the pool sign-in book they may not have to identify themselves at the desk before using the pool.  If that's the case, anyone from the area could be enjoying the use of the pool!  A few years ago I had asked whether my son's family could use the recreational facilities and had been told that I would have to add his name to my deed in order for them to do that.  So now we have a woman, whose father has converted his deed to Festiva points, signing in to use the pool, citing her father as an owner.  *Is this one of the "changes" being explained in the meetings with Mike?*


----------



## ecwinch

*Silence is Gooden*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Once again, Eric, you misquote me and then attack me on the misquote.  Not fair!  I said that the resort was grandfathered, not exempt from 183B.
> 
> I do not have the exact hearing date handy but I believe it's sometime this May.  None of the other resorts that support our position have a developer.  They are ALL sold out resorts and either self managed or managed by a professional management company.  We haven't even spoken to other developers about the issue.
> 
> Goodbye, Eric



When faced with specific questions for details to support their statements, spin machines usually seize up. 

For instance, if asked what venue and date a certain event is scheduled for. 
For someone with knowledge of the event, you think that would be easy information to obtain. Unless you did not want people to know about the event. 

Because maybe they are attempting to resolve this issue in venue other than the court of their peers.

Hmmm... in what other venue can someone change the law without have to appear in court?


----------



## Sou13

*Change of date?*

Last I've heard, the hearing was scheduled for a date in April, but knowing what connections NEVMSLLC and Co. have, it's probably been postponed.  The Sandcastle owners seem to be privy to more info about this than I am.


----------



## Sou13

*Festiva complaints*

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=880561#post880561

For reasons to fight NEVS/Festiva/Outfield Marketing, read this!


----------



## Sou13

*Still no report for 2009*

Elizabeth McNichols is still serving as the Clerk of the Corporation according to the results of the Corporations Search, and no Annual Report has been filed for 2009.


----------



## Sou13

*1990 budget found*

Going through the archives I found a 1990 budget that I was unable to post here because of the inability to post columns.  The reason I'm bringing it to the attention of Southcape owners and hopefully to the attention of the advisory committee is that in 1990 there were *2,200* members paying Maintenance Fees!

NEVS claims to be in the process of turning the owners' association over to the owners, but is actually engaged in turning control of the resort over to the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club.

A recent check of the deeds being converted to Festiva turned up a puzzling case of a summer week deeded *from* Festiva *to* NEVS.  If Festiva owned it, according to Rosaleen Cassidy, the MF and SA were paid by Festiva.  But now that NEVS owns it, no MF will be paid for that week.  Since NEVS owns it, it should *not* be available for points members and *should* be available for rental, the income from which *should* go to the owners association.

I hope that the advisory committee will be diligent in holding NEVS and NEVMS accountable for its actions in making it next to impossible for the resort to be controlled by weeks owners.


----------



## Sou13

*My version for the advisory committee*



Sou13 said:


> *"We don't sell weeks, we sell points"*
> 
> It's been a year since my close call with Greg Hughes at Southcape Resort and I'm back from my 4-day stay.  Here's the latest:
> 
> There's a big sign in the clubhouse next to the reception area that gives the impression that if you make an appointment with "owner services" in Unit 32 there are weeks for sale at Southcape and Sandcastle Resorts.  The Sandcastle weeks are supposed to be available for the "balance owed" or something to that effect.  Because I didn't check in on Saturday, I wasn't offered a $50 gift card at check-in for making an appointment.  But Frank in owner services was able to squeeze me in Friday morning, and when he learned that I knew about New England Vacation Services and the FAC he didn't put me through any presentation, just answered or tried to answer my questions.
> 
> The first question was, how much are they asking for a week, to which the reply is that they don't sell weeks, they sell points.  I hope I get this right because Frank is going to check up on my report.  So here goes and you can decide what to make of it:
> 
> "Nobody is selling deeded weeks anymore.  The United States is the only country where you can buy a deeded week that you own forever.  At most you can own a week for 30 years.  The timeshare deeded weeks have gone out like the VCR and I won't sell you a VCR either."
> 
> Frank is paid by Outfield Marketing to either sell me points for one of the weeks owned by New England Vacation Services or to tell me what a wonderful opportunity I will be missing if I don't convert my deeded week to points in the FAC.  New England Vacation Services would supposedly be doing Southcape weeks owners a disservice if they hadn't made a deal with Festiva.
> 
> When you enter his office you see one of the beautiful wood-inlaid boat pictures that have been removed from units 1-31.  According to Frank that was the only one that hadn't been damaged by guests' children.
> 
> Someone put notices under guests' doors for two or three weeks last summer.  These notices cost Outfield Marketing big bucks in lost sales.  I told Frank that this was all news to me but did ask him to make a copy of one for me, which he did.
> 
> According to Frank, there's a lot of misinformation on TUG and it's no longer worth the time to read our discussions.  He finds them almost laughable.
> 
> I was completely unaware that only owners of units 1-31 have "float" weeks.  Weeks in units 32-55 are all fixed weeks.  Float weeks are a bad idea which is why units 32-55 are all fixed weeks and have a different master deed.  The entire resort needs to be united under one master deed.
> 
> Festiva isn't about to "take over" Southcape and the whole idea of complaining to the Attorney General is unfounded according to Frank.
> 
> Here's the selling point that I can't comprehend.  Southcape Resort has check-in on Saturday but if you are a Festiva points member you can stay from Friday to Sunday and if you reserve less than 30 days in advance you can stay more than 7 nights per year.  The reason I argued with him about this is that in order for anyone to stay from Friday to Sunday, there have to be two weeks available and as the weeks get sold that is less likely to happen.
> 
> The before and after pictures that were on display at the owners' meeting are now on display in owner services.  Everyone is so impressed with what a wonderful job New England Vacations Services has done at Southcape *by assessing us for doing it!*  So New England Vacation Services bought 550 unsold weeks at Southcape Resort at a "fixer-upper" price and then charged the maintenance-fee-paying owners for fixing up their units!  And the way they "convinced" weeks owners to convert to points was to tell them that they would not have to pay the special assessments that would have to be levied on weeks owners in order to do it.
> 
> Frank used a calculator and found that the owner of 6 float weeks got the best deal.  Since this discussion is about what kind of offers weeks owners were being made I can finally report that there is only one base Festiva MF per member and the # of points owned determine what the MF will be per year.  While six deeded weeks have six MFs the Festiva member pays one base MF which will be going up this year.  The owner of the 6 weeks that were converted to Festiva points paid one conversion fee of $2990 and 6 processing fees of $195.  No wonder she sold out to Festiva!
> 
> I have to submit this now and get back to it tomorrow.  Meanwhile, comments and questions are appreciated.


I've been waiting for Southcape owners to post questions for the advisory committee which is scheduled to meet this Saturday (April 10).  I'm hoping that this post will be on the same page as the previous concerns but if it isn't, please go back to the previous pages.

I don't know who complained that I was "harrassing" guests but want to explain why the "guest" who complained felt "uncomfortable."

_"Someone put notices under guests' doors for two or three weeks last summer. These notices cost Outfield Marketing big bucks in lost sales. I told Frank that this was all news to me but did ask him to make a copy of one for me, which he did."_  (See quote from Post #320, November 28, 2009)  Before heading for Southcape in February I made 50 copies of my revision of the notice that Frank copied for me, and decided to distribute them to owners only.  In order to get them into the hands of owners, I had to approach guests and ask them whether they were owners.  If they replied that they were exchanges or renters, I didn't give them a copy.

In the case of the "guest" who was reading a book by the pool, she replied that her father was an owner and that he was on the board of trustees!  I definitely didn't want to give her a copy, but had to ask who her father is.  When she told me his name, it didn't ring a bell which alarmed me because I wanted to know how her father got to be on the board.  She told me that he had been appointed in December.  That's when I told her that I was going to request to see the trustees meeting minutes, and went to catch Rosaleen before she left for the day.

It wasn't until the next day, after having the presence of mind to look at the pool sign-in book, that I discovered that her father had converted to Festiva just weeks earlier, which is why I raised the issue of "privacy rights" at Southcape.


----------



## ecwinch

When you convert to Festiva do you not have to give up your deed? Meaning FAC becomes the owner for that week/unit, the owner converting into FAC ceases to be an owner at Southcape.

As far I read the by-laws, a Director has be an owner at the Southcape. (Section 5).


----------



## Russ45

*question*



Sou13 said:


> I've been waiting for Southcape owners to post questions for the advisory committee which is scheduled to meet this Saturday (April 10).  I'm hoping that this post will be on the same page as the previous concerns but if it isn't, please go back to the previous pages.
> 
> I don't know who complained that I was "harrassing" guests but want to explain why the "guest" who complained felt "uncomfortable."
> 
> _"Someone put notices under guests' doors for two or three weeks last summer. These notices cost Outfield Marketing big bucks in lost sales. I told Frank that this was all news to me but did ask him to make a copy of one for me, which he did."_  (See quote from Post #320, November 28, 2009)  Before heading for Southcape in February I made 50 copies of my revision of the notice that Frank copied for me, and decided to distribute them to owners only.  In order to get them into the hands of owners, I had to approach guests and ask them whether they were owners.  If they replied that they were exchanges or renters, I didn't give them a copy.
> 
> In the case of the "guest" who was reading a book by the pool, she replied that her father was an owner and that he was on the board of trustees!  I definitely didn't want to give her a copy, but had to ask who her father is.  When she told me his name, it didn't ring a bell which alarmed me because I wanted to know how her father got to be on the board.  She told me that he had been appointed in December.  That's when I told her that I was going to request to see the trustees meeting minutes, and went to catch Rosaleen before she left for the day.
> 
> It wasn't until the next day, after having the presence of mind to look at the pool sign-in book, that I discovered that her father had converted to Festiva just weeks earlier, which is why I raised the issue of "privacy rights" at Southcape.



NEVS, MEVSM, Outfield, IVS and Festiva don't appear to be licensed as real estate brokers/firms according to the MA DOPL.  How are real estate transactions being conducted?


----------



## Fig

Russ45 said:


> NEVS, MEVSM, Outfield, IVS and Festiva don't appear to be licensed as real estate brokers/firms according to the MA DOPL.  How are real estate transactions being conducted?



Well, it appears Cliff Hagberg can't legally broker any deals in Massachusetts since his license was recently suspended after  "disciplinary action," which is interesting because he appears to be the only player who was licensed in MA.
http://license.reg.state.ma.us/pubL...s= B&license_number=000125373&color=red&lb=RE


----------



## e.bram

Innseason gave up managing and points converting a group of New England Tses. Maybe Hapsberg will do the same, when he figures out it is a losing endeavor in this economy with extremely seasonal TSes.


----------



## Sou13

According to the latest update to the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access, the majority of the conversions were sold to Southcape owners who were visited in their homes.  The conversions tally as of 3/11/2010 was more than 275.  There have been no sales of weeks acquired by NEVS which means that more than 550 weeks are not paying MFs and SAs which puts the burden on the deeded owners for maintenance of the resort and the two units being used by NEVS for sales of *conversions only*.

The advisory committee, promised a year ago by NEVMSLLC *in this discussion*, is finally supposed to be meeting today.  What purpose will be served by this meeting remains to be seen.  I was not invited to be on the committee or to attend the meeting.


----------



## ChrisH

*Court Date - Southcape Resort*

FROM NEVMSLLC



> "I agree that it's a matter for the courts and, what you don't seem to know is, *we are already in court for a determination as to what needs to be done. *You and I actually agree that going to court is the correct procedure. Far from believing a judge will rule against the resort's position, we are confident that our position will be upheld and there is precedent, you just don't seem to be aware of that. You are also unaware of the fact that our position is being supported by almost every other resort and management company in Massachusetts. It's not just us. An injunction against Sou13 would mean nothing as the matter needs to be decided definitively. I would suggest that even you would agree with the actions of management and the trustees in letting a court make the decision. I have never said that state laws should be ignored. Only that, when there are laws that conflict, a ruling from a court of competent jurisdiction would help the trustees in meeting their fiduciary responsibility to protect the interests of all owners."


The reason they are 'already going to court'  is that NEVS LLC was summoned to court by a Southcape Owner, and certainly not because NEVS wants this determination made.

The case is scheduled for the Barnstable Superior Court on April 22nd, 2010 and not 'sometime in May' 
at least that was the originally scheduled court date.

I'm am not a Southcape owner, however, this should be correctly posted here.


----------



## Sou13

*Advisory Committee*



NEVMSLLC said:


> Finally, this will be my last communication again with you Eric.  If you'd like to continue communicating, buy a week, become an owner and perhaps you should actually read the documents before offering your pseudo-legal opinions of contracts you've never seen.
> 
> Sou13 wanted her questions, comments and opinions brought to the attention of the advisory committee and I've agreed.  I've only said that they will be presented with everything, including both her criticisms and her actions.  All owner concerns will be discussed with the advisory committee as they are with the trustees.  Only you could turn that into problem.  Talk about spin . . .


Here's all I could get from NEVMSLLC re the advisory committee:The Advisory Committee did meet and there will be follow up meetings.  No further notices for the Annual Meeting will be sent.  The agenda for the Annual Meeting is set.

Clifford Hagberg
NEVMS, LLC​


----------



## Sou13

*Answer from Mike*

Today I called 1-508-477-4700 x 132 and my call was answered by “Mike” in “Owner Services” who told me that he had been away for two weeks but would be there for the rest of the year.  Since NEVMSLLC didn’t answer my question about the daughter of a Southcape owner who had converted to the FAC, I put the question to Mike.  Of course Mike wanted to sell me on all the benefits of converting a float week to Festiva points, but I had to remind him that I was paying for the call and wasn’t going to let him give his sales pitch on my dime.  However, his answers have raised even more concerns for Southcape owners, especially float week owners.  Here’s some of what he told me:

The right to enjoy the use of the resorts (both Sandcastle and Southcape) is one of the many “benefits” of converting to Festiva.  This means that Southcape owners who convert to Festiva now have parking privileges at Sandcastle, which is a real boon for anyone trying to find parking in Provincetown.

At the same time, he couldn’t say whether deeded weeks owners have the same privileges.  He did say that as more and more weeks get converted to Festiva points, the pool of weeks available to float week owners will shrink because converted weeks will be available to FAC members only.

Here’s my concern which I need to bring to the attention of the advisory committee.  While Festiva pays the Community Association no more in maintenance fees and special assessments than weeks owners are paying, Festiva members get to enjoy more privileges than deeded weeks owners have.

While float week owners can no longer split weeks, Festiva members can, but the Community Association is NOT receiving the additional $50 for the housekeeping that split week owners are charged.  If I’m mistaken about this, can the advisory committee to get the answer for me?

While float weeks owners have to reserve their weeks for the following year, the weeks that have been converted to the FAC are not available to them.  But float weeks are float weeks!  The float weeks that have been converted to Festiva points can’t be used until the following year!  I could convert my deeded float week but it could have been reserved by another float week owner because I didn’t reserve the week that my deed says that I own.  I’ve reserved a week for 2011 but if I were to convert to the FAC before using it, who would get the use of it?  Shouldn’t it go back into the float week pool available to deeded owners who can’t reserve for 2011 until they’ve used the week they’ve reserved for 2010 (which could be the week that my deed says that I own)?

Mike tried to convince me that for the 3500 points my float week would get me I'd be able to stay at Southcape 4 times (16 days) instead of one week.  I find that hard to believe.  I guess it’s possible if I want to stay at Southcape in January when there's nobody there and the pool might not even be open!

Southcape deeded weeks owners, will you please come forward and post your reactions to these concerns?


----------



## e.bram

Deeded weeks owners because if float weeks owners bail due to a conflict of interest, deeded weeks owners will have to pick up the tab(for unpaid MFs).


----------



## Sou13

*More questions for the advisory committee*

I've been examining the records of transactions of Southcape weeks recorded by New England Vacation Services at https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.PGM

I've noticed that every time a week is discharged from the mortgage to NEVS it is then turned over to InterCity Escrow Services (Festiva Resorts Adventure Club).

Here's the question:  If these weeks are now in the Club, has Festiva been paying maintenance fees for these weeks?

I've noticed that one of the weeks is in the unit (32 week 1) being used by Outfield Marketing for sales purposes.  Is the sales office cleared out in the first week of January in order for it to be used by FAC members?

I've also noticed that while Unit *38* week 31 was discharged to NEVS, it is unit *37* week 31 that has been turned over to the FAC!  *The recording fees for these transactions amount to $200!*


----------



## Sou13

*Southcape annual owners meeting May 15, 2010, 12 noon!*

ORDER OF BUSINESS (BOOK 3526 PAGE 041):

(a) Roll calL 
(b) Proof of notice of meeting. 
(c) Reading of minutes of preceding meeting. 
(d) Reports of officers. 
(e) Report of the Board. 
(f) Reports of committees. 
(g) Election of inspectors of election 
(when so required). 
(h) Election of Directors (when so required). 
(i) Unfinished Business. 
(j) New business.

To get an idea what to expect, go to TUG Post #189 and continue reading by clicking on [2008] Sandcastle Shift to "Festiva" Points [merged] in the upper right-hand corner.


----------



## Sou13

*Southcape annual owners meeting Saturday, May 15, 2010 at noon*



Classylassy523 said:


> If these reports are so important to Southcape owners, then why are they not posted on the Southcape thread or why didn't you email them directly to the owners on your Southcape list?
> 
> What was your purpose of posting them on this Sandcastle thread?


What would be the purpose of posting reports of the Sandcastle/Royal Coachman annual meeting *here*?

Southcape owners who haven't received the email link to the above reports can find them on Post #189.

In just two days we'll know how our meeting went .


----------



## Sou13

*What happens in 2022?*

BOOK 3526 PAGE 106​ 
14. Termination: All occupancy rights associated with Use Periods created under this Time Share Supplement shall *terminate on December 31, 2022*, if not extended as hereinafter provided; provided that, excepting only the provisions for partition as hereinafter set forth, nothing in this Paragraph shall serve to terminate the fee simple interest of Interval Owners. Upon such termination, all occupancy rights associated with Interval Ownership shall cease, provided that the Board of Trustees of the Trust shall, not less than thirty (30) days, nor more than sixty (60) days prior to said Termination Date, call a meeting of all Owners of Intervals in Units committed to Interval Ownership. At such meeting a vote shall be taken to decide the disposition of the Units committed to Interval Ownership. A quorum at such meeting shall be a majority of the total outstanding votes of all owners of Intervals in Units committed to Interval Ownership. At such meeting, the Owners, by a majority vote, may vote to continue their Intervals, in which case the provisions of this Time Share Supplement shall be adopted as covenants running with the land for 
- 19 -​
BOOK 3526 PAGE 107​
a period of ten years. The Board of Trustees of the Trust shall, no less than thirty (30) days, nor more than sixty (60) days prior to the actual expiration of said ten-year period, call a meeting of all Owners of Intervals ln Units committed to Interval Ownership. A quorum at such meeting shall be a majority of the total outstanding votes of all Owners of Intervals in Units committed to Interval Ownership. The Owners may then vote to continue the Intervals for an additional ten-year period. This process shall be repeated as the end of such successive ten-year period approaches. Should less than a majority of the Owners vote to continue the Intervals at such meeting, then the Board of Directors of the Trust shall file suit in a Court of competent jurisdiction in Barnstable County, Massachusetts for partition of the Unit(s).


----------



## Russ45

Sou13 said:


> ORDER OF BUSINESS (BOOK 3526 PAGE 041):
> 
> (a) Roll calL
> (b) Proof of notice of meeting.
> (c) Reading of minutes of preceding meeting.
> (d) Reports of officers.
> (e) Report of the Board.
> (f) Reports of committees.
> (g) Election of inspectors of election
> (when so required).
> (h) Election of Directors (when so required).
> (i) Unfinished Business.
> (j) New business.
> 
> To get an idea what to expect, go to TUG Post #189 and continue reading by clicking on [2008] Sandcastle Shift to "Festiva" Points [merged] in the upper right-hand corner.



I wasn't able to make the annual meeting.  Can anyone offer their opinion on how it went?


----------



## Sou13

*I wasn't taking notes*

Thanks for asking, Russ45!

I was too busy asking and trying to hear questions to be taking notes at the meeting but I did ask molzahn to take notes and she has a better report than I can give.  I was hoping she'd have posted something by now!

As for the "agenda" you can forget it.  NEVMSLLC has his own agenda and claims that there are three documents and the agenda isn't the same so he picked the best one (or the one best for him)!  Of course there was no attorney present to explain how he was able to do that and there were no other BOD members present, either.

I will comment on the "advisory group" who got to sit in reserved seats in the front row with their backs to the approximately 50 owners who attended the meeting.  They've had one organizational meeting and haven't met with the BOD other than Mr. Hagberg.  The only purpose they served IMO was to prove that one of the promises made in this discussion was kept.  I'm glad I wasn't on the committee because I could stand in the aisle and wave my hand high enough to be recognized!

What I did was count the chairs, count how many owners were in them, and hand out documents which I *tried to keep secret from the "advisory committee"* until the meeting had commenced.  _*But since the identity of the committee was kept secret from me, I had accidentally forwarded them to one of the members who showed or forwarded them to NEVMSLLC*_.

I've added at least 7 owners to my elist as a result of the meeting and have been busy updating them and the Southcapeowners Yahoogroup since then.  I do intend to update the Southcape owners via email but would like to get a few facts straight before doing so.  But thanks again for asking!


----------



## Sou13

*I had my own "agenda"*

I was too busy passing out handouts to even get the names of the "advisory committee" members seated in the front row with their backs to us, or of the "Resort Staff" when they were introduced as agenda item #2 after the #1 "Welcome and Call to Order"!  Here's what I recall:

NEVMSLLC was the only "trustee" present and convened the meeting.  Item #1 was to draw attention to the documents on the table, which consisted of the agenda, meeting "minutes" from 2009, and the "Compiled Financial Statements" for the year ending December 31, 2009.  We were told that questions would be answered only on the matters on the agenda, but that a Q & A session would follow "Adjournment" but not be part of the official meeting.  Here, then, is the "Agenda" and what I can report here on TUG:


Welcome and Call to Order
Introductions
a. Owner Advisory Committee
b. Resort Staff
Financial Report
Renovation Report
Developer Report
Adjournment
The "Financial Report" went right over my head.  Now that I've had a chance to look it over I'm thoroughly confused.  But where on the agenda were the "minutes" from the 2009 meeting?  NEVMSLLC made or received a motion that they be "approved" and the motion was seconded before there was any discussion of the accuracy of these "minutes" which I have previously contended were only a report of what NEVMSLLC  wanted us to believe happened at the meeting.  When I raised the issues of the discussion of an audit and the question about the $2.5 million mortgage I got shot down and the minutes were approved!

I'm not even going to try to get into the reports until someone who was taking notes can verify some of my recollections.  

When someone asked about the "Changes" handout, NEVMSLLC replied that he had seen it and that 14 of the 15 items were "misrepresentations" which leaves me to wonder which one wasn't!  I had carefully researched all 15 before putting them into handout form, but as it turned out when we got to the "Developer Report" there was only one "misrepresentation":  *NEVMSLLC!*

I'll leave you to puzzle over this one.  See you Tuesday?


----------



## Sou13

See TUG Post http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=921534&posted=1#post921534 for why we need to *take action* against NEVS and Festiva!


----------



## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> See TUG Post http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=921534&posted=1#post921534 for why we need to *take action* against NEVS and Festiva!


A Concerned Southcape Interval Owner put it this way to Speaker DeLeo:

Please support this only if it provides that the foreclosed units revert to the homeowners' association, which must notify its members that they are available for resale (and at what price) a specified number of weeks before they are sold to outsiders, and if the proceeds of any resale belong to the homeowners' association.

Why?  Because at Southcape, in Mashpee, on the Cape, where my family owns two weeks, an outsider took over the self-elected board and is in the process of trying to get you to enact legislation which will let him foreclose on units so that he can sell them, for his own benefit, to another outsider who is trying to take over the place and sell points instead of weeks (and who has already used high-pressure, less-than-accurate, fright-inducing techniques to convince existing time share owners to pay him, repeat, pay him, for the privilege of giving him their ownership interests--hard to believe, but true (I survived one of the hard-sell meetings), and no one in the MA government is doing anything about it.  The proposed bill, unless it has provisions protecting the existing owners, would only make things worse.

In addition, please require that homeowners' associations make lists of their members (other than any who actively opt out) available to any time share unit owner requesting same, so that members can reach other members and potentially join with other members to stop outsiders, in the name of the homeowners' association, from taking over timeshare associations and reselling them for a personal profit and to the detriment of the existing owners of non-foreclosed timeshares.

The person who took control of Southcape, in Mashpee, has repeatedly refused to make the list, which he has and uses for his own benefit, available to us, the ownerss of time shares at Southcape, despite being requested to do so, claiming that what we understand to be a MA law requiring that he do so does not apply to him.  Again, no one in the MA government is helping us.

Hopefully you will.


----------



## Sou13

Dear Representative Speliotis: 

On behalf of more than 153,000 owners of timeshare in Massachusetts, I respectfully urge the House of Representatives to add consumer protections for the owners' associations to this bill.  

At Southcape Resort, where I own a "float" week, an alliance was struck between New England Vacation Services, LLC, and Festiva Resorts of North Carolina to purchase all the 550 unsold weeks from Vince Barth and Robert Woods and to convert deeded weeks to "points" in the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club.  There were two resorts included in this transaction, Southcape Resort in Mashpee and Sandcastle/Royal Coachman in Provincetown.  The combined unsold weeks and trusts were sold to NEVS for $1.2 million but the day of the closing (9/4/08) NEVS combined both resorts under a $2.5 million mortgage. 

Immediately a notice to owners accompanied an increase in the maintenance fee for 2009.  The NEVS partnership consists of Clifford Hagberg and three principals of Outfield Marketing:  Thomas Franks, Steve LaMantia, and Mark Monroe.  Clifford Hagberg took over as managing partner by incorporating New England Vacation Management Services in 2008.  Outfield Marketing was given the names, addresses, and telephone numbers of all deeded owners, and representatives of Outfield Marketing began telephoning owners to set up appointments in their homes to inform them of the CHANGES as a result of the sale of Southcape Resort.  Owners who allowed these marketers into their homes soon learned that the CHANGES were to convince or SCARE deeded owners into paying NEVS $3185 to convert their deeds to "points" in the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club. 

When these in-home visits began in September 2008, Outfield Marketing was not registered to do business in any of the states where these owners resided including the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and Festiva Resorts was not registered as a corporation in the Commonwealth.  Festiva did not register until January 2009 and Outfield Marketing is not registered to this day. 

In order to convince deeded owners to give up their deeds, a special assessment of $400 per week was levied on all owners EXCEPT NEVS!  NEVS also claimed that the "developer" did not have to pay maintenance fees on the 550 weeks owned by the corporation, and the 4 partners installed themselves and their attorney to 5 seats on the Board of Trustees.  No elections have been held in recent memory, and no deeded owners occupy seats on the BOD.  

In addition to not paying MFs or SAs on the 550 weeks, NEVS took over the use of two units for sales of conversions from deeds to points.  None of the 550 weeks were sold, and as weeks were released from the $2.5 million mortgage they were turned over to the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club via InterCity Escrow Services.  By the time of the annual meeting in May 2010 more than 275 deeded weeks had been converted to Festiva points.  None of the proceeds from these sales went toward MFs or SAs on the 550 weeks or for rent of the two units being used for sales. 

At the annual owners meeting in May 2009 a motion was made for a forensic audit but owners were told that there could be no official vote for an audit, only an advisory opinion, because there was no quorum present.  However, there was also no attorney present to render such an opinion, only Clifford Hagberg, managing partner of NEVS.  The majority of owners present (approximately 150) showed that they favored an audit but no mention of this was made in what went out to the more than 1700 owners who were not present as “minutes” of the meeting.  There has been no audit of the books of Southcape Resort in recent memory, in noncompliance to M.G.L. 183a-10.

The compiled financial statement for 2009 that was made available to owners who attended the 2010 meeting (about 50, approximately 1/3 of the owners who showed up in 2009) made no mention of the Special Assessment or how or even whether it was spent on renovations/upgrades at Southcape.  However, there were owners who were deprived of their use of their weeks for refusing to pay the $400 Special Assessment which they believed were illegally imposed by an illegally-appointed Board of Trustees. 

At the annual owners meeting in May 2010 we learned that NEVS is negotiating a sale of the 550 weeks to Festiva Resorts and that Festiva will be taking over the management of the management of the resort: 

NEVS bought on 9.4.2008 and now is selling to Festiva all the timeshare weeks on Units 32 thru 36.  (5X52=260)  These include all the 'red' weeks for these units, as well as the offseason weeks.  In addition, they are selling an additional 290 timeshare weeks, mostly offseason, for a total inventory of 550 timeshare weeks. 
Festiva representatives attending Southcape Resort and Club Community Association, Inc. annual meeting on 5.15.10:  Rich Hartnett, Director of Sales operations, and Kevin Blockert, Director of Board Operations (the Timeshare Resort Operating Management) 
Rich told us that Festiva currently owns positions in 30 resorts worlwide, and considers any property located on Cape Cod, as an attractive target.  The aim of Festiva is to convert as many as possible of deeded timeshare weeks, into Festiva Resort Vacation Club Exchange Point membership.  The point system works on a first come first served basis;  those who register first, get a choice of the most desirable weeks.  As the inventory of available weeks declines each year, club members get less and less desirable weeks. 
There will be additional incentives for those who do not get desirable weeks;  an additional week or two for free during the offseason weeks. 
This enables the use of most of the offseason weeks, and solves a major problem for developers of deeded timeshare resorts.  Vacation Club members pay an upfront fee, and an annual fee for as long as they remain as members.  30 or more resorts enables the operators greater flexibility in operating the resorts. 
Every timeshare week owned by the Festiva Resort Vacation Club will pay the same maintenance paid by the other deeded timeshare owners.  
Major concerns:
1.  Rich said he expected that the deeded titles to timeshare weeks 'owned' by delinquent owners (those who have not paid the maintenance fees, the special assessment, and the penalties), approx. 650 owners, will become the property of Festiva, and will become part of the Festiva Resort Vacation Club Point System.  Those timeshare weeks are a part of the Southcape Resort and Club Community Association, Inc., and it definitely would not be in the best interest of the deeded timeshare owners to allow the current self-appointed Trustees, to vote for such action. This would give majority vote to Festiva, and is illegal as it does not represent the best interest of the deeded owners. 
2.  Kevin told us that management fees would rise from the current 10% (5% under Bob and Vince) of the operating budget, to 13%, excluding legal and accounting fees.  We are adding a layer of management to our very capable existing staff. 

As I try to understand this bill, I can't help but wonder whether its intent is to pave the way for legalizing the takeover of other resorts as is happening at Southcape Resort in Mashpee and Sandcastle/Royal Coachman in Provincetown. 

I can understand why ARDA is lobbying for passage of this bill but not why RCI and II have sent messages to their members including a form letter to you in support of its passage.  I can see no provisions in this bill that can prohibit "developers" from using unscrupulous tactics to force deeded owners into forfeiture proceedings.  When will this bill next be heard and how can deeded owners gain a voice in the proceedings?


*To* Rep.TheodoreSpeliotis@hou.state.ma.us

*Cc* Robert.DeLeo@state.ma.us


----------



## Sou13

*Goodby, NEVMSLLC!*

It's official.  NEVMSLLC will be replaced by Festiva Hospitality Group as the "management company" as of July 1.

This is what I meant by "when we got to the "Developer Report" there was only one "misrepresentation": *NEVMSLLC*!"

Here's the link to the abstract of the deed: https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.HTM...01438&WSKYCD=B&W9ABR=*ALL&W9IMID=B10165AA.AHT

Here's the link to the "Assignment of Property":https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.HTM...01304&WSKYCD=B&W9ABR=*ALL&W9IMID=B10165AA.AX6


----------



## Sou13

*More weeks for Festiva*

I've heard from some Southcape owners that they are being contacted by "Kim" by telephone before checking into the resort.  Festiva isn't waiting until check-in to set up appointments, and I see that nine weeks have been converted since Festiva took over the more than 825 weeks it controlled upon the $1 million takeover.  One of these weeks isn't even properly registered because it's registered as unit 216 but that could be a typo on the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access.  That brings the total weeks controlled by Festiva over 830 by now.


----------



## jannibaby

*Kim from Festiva*

Kim left a voicemail on my home saying she needed to talk to me before I arrived.  I called her back but she didn't return my call.  I expected that this was what it was all about.  We'll be ready to fight the good fight.

Janice


----------



## Sou13

*"Development rights"?  WHAT "development rights"?*

*Pre-sorted First Class from Asheville, NC:*

June 29, 2010 

Greetings Southcape Resort & Club owner; 

We would like to take some time to update you on your Southcape ownership and to introduce ourselves to you. As of June 11,2010, Festiva Hospitality Group has purchased the development rights and unsold inventory at Southcape Resort & Club. After a few weeks oftransitioning, beginning July 1 Festiva Management Group will assume management of the property as well. We want to tell you a bit about our company and how your ownership will be affected. 

Festiva Hospitality Group, based in Asheville, N.C., is proud to be celebrating our 10 year anniversary in 2010. When our founders, Don Clayton and Butch Patrick, started Festiva they already had several years of experience in the timeshare industry and brought on a strong team that was equally experienced, many of whom still work for Festiva today. 

Festiva has grown and evolved over the years to a network of 26 resorts, five Caribbean Festiva Sailing Vacations destinations and nearly 60,000 owners and members. We are proud to now call Southcape Resort & Club along with all of its owners part of our growing family. We invite you to visit www.festiva-l0years.com for more information about how Festiva started and where we are today. 

With this change in ownership and management, there will be some minor adjustments that you will notice as owners. Festiva has a fully staffed well-trained Owner Services and Central Reservations department in our corporate headquarters in Asheville. They answer phone calls and e-mails Monday through Thursday from 9 a.m. until 6 p.m. and Friday and Saturday from 9 a.m. until 5 p.m., Eastern Standard Time. Our Owner Services representatives can answer any questions that you may have about this 
transition, Festiva, our Adventure Club and our individual resorts. 

You will also notice a few changes at the resort itself. We have a team based in two of the units that gives presentations about upgrading from your deeded week to the Festiva Adventure Club. This is in no way required or mandatory, but we have our trained staff there if you are interested in learning more. We have future plans for improvements and updates around the resort, and we will keep you informed as those plans are finalized. 

The Festiva Adventure Club was launched in the summer of 2006. It is a points-based vacation membership system that gives members increased flexibility in many aspects when making their vacation plans. Members have access to all resorts and cruise destinations within the Festiva family and can also exchange to anyone of thousands of resorts worldwide affiliated with Interval International. Based on their points, members can also stay in any unit size available, vacation any time of year available and take advantage of various stay lengths and multiple vacations in one year. 

You can find out detailed information about all of our resorts at our website, www.festiva.travel. We can also be found online at our Blog (blog.festiva.travel), on Facebook (www.facebook.com/FestivaHospitalityGroup) and on Twitter (@festivatravel). We also send regular news and updates to our owners and members through e-mail, including last-minute specials at our resorts. 

To be sure that we are able to get in touch with you, we ask that you provide us with your most up to date contact information. *Please call the Owner Services department at 866-933-7848 during the listed hours and verify your contact information including your e-mail address and telephone number.* If this letter was forwarded from a previous address, please update that as well. 

If you call us before November 1,2010, to update your contact information, we will give you the opportunity to visit one of the Festiva resorts for a greatly discounted rate. We will send you a Relaxing Retreats gift card with a $500 value for a 7 night vacation to use in 2011. We want you to become more familiar with our resorts in other destinations, so your cost for this vacation will only be $199. This is simply an incentive to provide us with your contact information; there is no sales presentation required and this vacation will not affect your 2011 usage. For more details, please see the enclosed certificate. 

We are happy to welcome you and your family to our Festiva family, and we invite you to contact us with any questions you may have. 

Kind Regards; 

Festiva Hospitality Group


----------



## Fig

*For the record*

From the beggining the concern was that the plan was to have Festiva take over Southcape.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=695032&postcount=258

From Sanford, March 30th 2009
Cliff,
I really don't think ANYBODY would be mad or be questioning save:
1) The appearance of inappropriateness of OUTFIELD being Trustees and lack of clarity as to their roles and motivations and also their marketing efforts solely focused on converting deeded owners to Festiva Points ( WHY?)
2) The lack of clarity of the role and relationship of Festiva and the appearance of a clever subtrafuge and takeover of the TS.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=695068&postcount=260

Cliff's answer:

2. There is no role for Festiva other than as an exchange company. There are protections in place to prevent what happened at other resorts


----------



## Sou13

*Reply to Fig*

That's what I meant by "When someone asked about the "Changes" handout, NEVMSLLC replied that he had seen it and that 14 of the 15 items were "misrepresentations" which leaves me to wonder which one wasn't! I had carefully researched all 15 before putting them into handout form, but as it turned out when we got to the "Developer Report" there was only one "misrepresentation": *NEVMSLLC!"*


----------



## Sou13

Annual Owner's Meeting Minutes: May 15,2010 
12:00 Noon, SouthCape Resort​
*Proceedings:* 

Meeting called to order at 12:02 p.m. by Clifford Hagberg trustee. 

The minutes of the previous annual meeting were approved. 

Mr. Hagberg introduced resort manager Rosaleen Cassidy, and the members of the Owner Advisory Committee. 

*Financial Report:* 

Rosaleen Cassidy reviewed the financial statement for 2010, and reported on the renovations that were funded by the special assessment. It was noted that 1740 owners paid their maintenance fees in 2009, as compared with approximately 1800 paying owners in 2008. In spite of the decrease in the number of paying members, the year was concluded within budget, and with a profit of $14,486. All of the delinquent fees collected in 2009 were allocated to the reserve account. The resort is currently in its most favorable financial position in over 20 years. 

*Renovation Report:* 

Special Assessment fees totaling $649,720 have been collected to date. This represents payment by 1620 owners; fees continue to come in. Special Assessment expenditures to date total $656,540.62. Additional money needed was taken from reserves. All of the exterior renovations have been completed at this time. These include siding, painting, and necessary roofing in units 1 through 24, and painting and replacement of decayed trim in units 32 through 55. Interior refurbishment of units 6 through 24 is near completion. Bedroom furniture will be replaced at a later date. 

There is currently a balance of $213,624.45 in the reserve account. This should prove to be more than adequate to fund the necessary septic repairs in the fall. It is also hoped that it will be possible to fund further renovations, including the replacement of bedroom furniture in units 6 through 24, and refurbishment of units 1 through 5, from the reserve account in the next one to two years. In response to an owner's question, it was reported that reserve monies are kept in a separate, interest-bearing, bank account. 

Mr. Hagberg provided an update on the current status of the negotiations with the health department with regards to the septic. An agreement has been reached to allow SouthCape to repair the failed septic systems as opposed to building a treatment plant. 

Wireless Internet access is now available throughout the resort, and the new reservations system is fully operational. 

*Management Report:* 

Mr. Hagberg reported on the negotiations with the town of Mashpee with regards to the parking lot. He voiced frustration with the town's handling of the matter, particularly with their lack of direct communication. A recent Mashpee Enterprise article indicated that the town was considering putting the land up for auction. Mr. Hagberg also noted that there might be a legal issue with regards to the lot being land-locked. Although the resort currently continues to use the property unhindered, there is currently no clear resolution in sight. 

Mr. Hagberg reported on the lawsuit filed by a Southcape owner in an attempt to obtain the list of Southcape owners. He explained that the resort holds the position that owner information is private information, the dissemination of which might open the resort to serious liability. He further explained that there is a conflict between current privacy laws, and Mass. Gen. Law 183B, and until this conflict is resolved in the courts, the resort will continue to adhere to the more cautious policy of protecting its owner's privacy. A discussion of the issue of owner privacy followed. An owner suggested an "opt out" list wherein owners could choose whether or not to have their information released. Many owners expressed their desire to have their information treated as confidential. 

*Developer report:* 

Mr. Hagberg introduced Rich Hartnett and Kevin Blocker as representatives of Festiva Hospitality Group. He announced that New England Vacation Services were currently in negotiation with Festiva with regards to the sale of the approximately 540 weeks owned by NEVS to Festiva Hospitality Group, and explained that if this sale takes place, it would end NEVS and NEVMS affiliation with Southcape Resort & Club. After the sale, Festiva would assume the management contract. 

Kevin Blocker further addressed the implications of the sale of the NEVS inventory to Festiva. Kevin assured the owners that Festiva was a well established and experienced management company who would bring the benefit of that experience to South Cape, taking it to the next level of efficiency and success. He outlined the advantages of a large management company in terms of purchasing power, etc., and pointed out that Festiva wants the same result that owners want: a resort that is run as efficiently as possible. As weeks are placed in the Festiva trust, new maintenance fees will be generated for the resort. He also stated that he felt strongly that owners should have a voice in matters that affected their resort, and that Festiva would take steps to incorporate owner input. 

In response to an owner's question as to whether Festiva was a company similar to RCI and II, Kevin responded that FAC was a points system as opposed to an exchange company. However, he noted that members could exchange into any II resort. 

*Break* 

A question and answer session followed a 10 minute break: 

Q: How did Cliff become a trustee? 
A: The previous trustees appointed the current trustees. 
Q: How often do the trustees meet? 
A: Four or five times a year. 
Q: Can owners submit items for the next annual meeting agenda? 
A: Owners should submit such items to the trustees in advance of the meeting. 
Q: How many weeks does NEVS own? 
A: Approximately 540. 
Q: Why do NEVS not pay maintenance fees on their weeks. 
A: NEVS are not required to pay maintenance fees on their weeks. All rental proceeds from these weeks go to the resort. 
Q: Will we see Festiva members at the next annual meeting? 
A: No. The weeks of Festiva members are held in trust. These members will not attend Southcape meetings. 
Q: If Festiva fails, what will happen to the trust? 
A: The trust is owned by the members. 
Q: Has there been any improvement in exchange company comment cards in light of the recent renovations? 
A: Not yet. 
Q: Why does Festiva want to buy Southcape? 
A: Festiva believes that Southcape has the potential to be a five star resort. 
Q: How much does Festiva charge in management fees? 
A: 10% 

The meeting was adjourned at 1: 55 p.m.


----------



## jannibaby

*My week at Southcape*

We were down the Cape (Unit 8) from 7/3 - 7/10.  Kim called as soon as we walked in the door.  This was at the same time I realized that the bedroom furniture and bathrooms had not been redone as promised last year.  The mattresses were new and the living room furniture and carpeting was new.  They replaced the loveseat with two chairs.  That was disappointing.  Also we had no bottom shelf in our refrigerator.  All the shelves had been moved down to make us "not notice" it.  Not having a bottom shelf meant the vegetable and crisper drawers were wide open.  So I was not very pleasant when Kim called.  I told her I know about all of the changes and that they wanted us to convert to points but that there was no way we were.  I told Kim that if time permitted, we would be willing to sit with her simply to ask questions and listen to their sales pitch for curiousity's sake.  As it turned out, we never did find a suitable time to speak with her.  I will admit that Kim did follow through and get a bottom shelf delivered the next day. 

What was interesting were the conversations I had with people in the pool area.  One family was visited at their house by one of the unscrupulous salesmen.  They were smart and did not give up their deed.  They were planning on going to a meeting with Kim later on in the week.  When I saw them later that week, they told me that the price to convert had risen to $8,000!  I questioned it and they said Kim had told them that the previous price was way too low!  I then met several people on Sunday the 11th (my sister was renting so I stayed the weekend).  There were several different parties there.  All of them were very upset about what was happening and none of them were giving up their deed.  They mentioned that while they were in the meeting, there were several other familes upstairs converting their deeds to points.  It seems odd that everyone I spoke to said they weren't interested in converting but that they saw many people that were.  I also met a woman whose grandfather was one of the original trustees, Joseph Bottari.  I definitely remember seeing that name on documents.  I told all of them to register on TUG and to search for the yahoo group.  Unfortunately, I was not sharp enough to remember to bring a pen and paper to get their email addresses.


----------



## Russ45

*Festiva Management*



Sou13 said:


> Annual Owner's Meeting Minutes: May 15,2010
> 12:00 Noon, SouthCape Resort​
> *Proceedings:*
> 
> Meeting called to order at 12:02 p.m. by Clifford Hagberg trustee.
> 
> The minutes of the previous annual meeting were approved.
> 
> Mr. Hagberg introduced resort manager Rosaleen Cassidy, and the members of the Owner Advisory Committee.
> 
> *Financial Report:*
> 
> Rosaleen Cassidy reviewed the financial statement for 2010, and reported on the renovations that were funded by the special assessment. It was noted that 1740 owners paid their maintenance fees in 2009, as compared with approximately 1800 paying owners in 2008. In spite of the decrease in the number of paying members, the year was concluded within budget, and with a profit of $14,486. All of the delinquent fees collected in 2009 were allocated to the reserve account. The resort is currently in its most favorable financial position in over 20 years.
> 
> *Renovation Report:*
> 
> Special Assessment fees totaling $649,720 have been collected to date. This represents payment by 1620 owners; fees continue to come in. Special Assessment expenditures to date total $656,540.62. Additional money needed was taken from reserves. All of the exterior renovations have been completed at this time. These include siding, painting, and necessary roofing in units 1 through 24, and painting and replacement of decayed trim in units 32 through 55. Interior refurbishment of units 6 through 24 is near completion. Bedroom furniture will be replaced at a later date.
> 
> There is currently a balance of $213,624.45 in the reserve account. This should prove to be more than adequate to fund the necessary septic repairs in the fall. It is also hoped that it will be possible to fund further renovations, including the replacement of bedroom furniture in units 6 through 24, and refurbishment of units 1 through 5, from the reserve account in the next one to two years. In response to an owner's question, it was reported that reserve monies are kept in a separate, interest-bearing, bank account.
> 
> Mr. Hagberg provided an update on the current status of the negotiations with the health department with regards to the septic. An agreement has been reached to allow SouthCape to repair the failed septic systems as opposed to building a treatment plant.
> 
> Wireless Internet access is now available throughout the resort, and the new reservations system is fully operational.
> 
> *Management Report:*
> 
> Mr. Hagberg reported on the negotiations with the town of Mashpee with regards to the parking lot. He voiced frustration with the town's handling of the matter, particularly with their lack of direct communication. A recent Mashpee Enterprise article indicated that the town was considering putting the land up for auction. Mr. Hagberg also noted that there might be a legal issue with regards to the lot being land-locked. Although the resort currently continues to use the property unhindered, there is currently no clear resolution in sight.
> 
> Mr. Hagberg reported on the lawsuit filed by a Southcape owner in an attempt to obtain the list of Southcape owners. He explained that the resort holds the position that owner information is private information, the dissemination of which might open the resort to serious liability. He further explained that there is a conflict between current privacy laws, and Mass. Gen. Law 183B, and until this conflict is resolved in the courts, the resort will continue to adhere to the more cautious policy of protecting its owner's privacy. A discussion of the issue of owner privacy followed. An owner suggested an "opt out" list wherein owners could choose whether or not to have their information released. Many owners expressed their desire to have their information treated as confidential.
> 
> *Developer report:*
> 
> Mr. Hagberg introduced Rich Hartnett and Kevin Blocker as representatives of Festiva Hospitality Group. He announced that New England Vacation Services were currently in negotiation with Festiva with regards to the sale of the approximately 540 weeks owned by NEVS to Festiva Hospitality Group, and explained that if this sale takes place, it would end NEVS and NEVMS affiliation with Southcape Resort & Club. After the sale, Festiva would assume the management contract.
> 
> Kevin Blocker further addressed the implications of the sale of the NEVS inventory to Festiva. Kevin assured the owners that Festiva was a well established and experienced management company who would bring the benefit of that experience to South Cape, taking it to the next level of efficiency and success. He outlined the advantages of a large management company in terms of purchasing power, etc., and pointed out that Festiva wants the same result that owners want: a resort that is run as efficiently as possible. As weeks are placed in the Festiva trust, new maintenance fees will be generated for the resort. He also stated that he felt strongly that owners should have a voice in matters that affected their resort, and that Festiva would take steps to incorporate owner input.
> 
> In response to an owner's question as to whether Festiva was a company similar to RCI and II, Kevin responded that FAC was a points system as opposed to an exchange company. However, he noted that members could exchange into any II resort.
> 
> *Break*
> 
> A question and answer session followed a 10 minute break:
> 
> Q: How did Cliff become a trustee?
> A: The previous trustees appointed the current trustees.
> Q: How often do the trustees meet?
> A: Four or five times a year.
> Q: Can owners submit items for the next annual meeting agenda?
> A: Owners should submit such items to the trustees in advance of the meeting.
> Q: How many weeks does NEVS own?
> A: Approximately 540.
> Q: Why do NEVS not pay maintenance fees on their weeks.
> A: NEVS are not required to pay maintenance fees on their weeks. All rental proceeds from these weeks go to the resort.
> Q: Will we see Festiva members at the next annual meeting?
> A: No. The weeks of Festiva members are held in trust. These members will not attend Southcape meetings.
> Q: If Festiva fails, what will happen to the trust?
> A: The trust is owned by the members.
> Q: Has there been any improvement in exchange company comment cards in light of the recent renovations?
> A: Not yet.
> Q: Why does Festiva want to buy Southcape?
> A: Festiva believes that Southcape has the potential to be a five star resort.
> Q: How much does Festiva charge in management fees?
> A: 10%
> 
> The meeting was adjourned at 1: 55 p.m.



Any idea on who the Board of Trustees are?  Do we have any?  did anyone ask about holding Trustee elections?


----------



## Sou13

*Russ45:*

The subject came up and my recollection is that the *Festiva* trustees will be appointed in the same way that NEVS was appointed:  *illegally!*

An owner who called the "Owner Services" for answers to questions found the answers to be less than enlightening.  The transition is still in progress according to http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/co...ReadFromDB=True&UpdateAllowed=&FEIN=042922230


----------



## Sou13

*Annual Owner's Meeting Minutes: May 15,2010*

A Southcape owner who read the "minutes" here and didn't receive a copy in the mail wondered whether they had come from Southcape or from an owner who attended the meeting.  It turns out that I had received a copy *ONLY BECAUSE I HAD REQUESTED ONE!*

Southcape owners, if you haven't received a copy of these meeting minutes, it looks as though they are being mailed out only to owners who request them, so it's up to you to find out why.


----------



## ChrisH

*Trustees are listed on the Barnstable Deeds site*



Russ45 said:


> Any idea on who the Board of Trustees are?  Do we have any?  did anyone ask about holding Trustee elections?




Gtor: SOUTHCAPE TRUST (BY TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: HORTON, WILLIAM (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: STRYON, SCOTT C (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: BLOCKER, KEVIN L (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: FRANKS, THOMAS (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: LAMANTIA, STEVE (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: HAGBERG, CLIFFORD (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: MONROE, MARK (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: HORTON, WILLIAM W III (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: SMITH, DAVIS F (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: WEAS, TOBIAS A (AS TR) (Gtor) 

Gtor: HORTON, WILLIAM W (AS TR) (Gtor)


----------



## Sou13

Those are the "trustees" who sold the NEVS interest in Southcape Resort to Festiva, not the "trustees" who will be taking over.  We still don't know who they will be, but in the meantime I have been provided a copy of the Master Deed and Declaration of Trust for Condo II, and am in the process of publishing and distributing it.

Now that I've accessed the governing documents for Condo II I have proof that the "trustees" listed above acted in violation of the governing documents.


----------



## ChrisH

*Trustee Appointments*

Appointed as Trustees of Southcape II in June 2010 and accepting those appointments in June 2010 as recorded in the Barnstable Deeds are:

HORTON, WILLIAM (AS TR)  

STRYON, SCOTT C (AS TR)  

BLOCKER, KEVIN L (AS TR)  

Appointed as Trustees of Southcape I in June 2010 and accepting those appointments in June 2010 as recorded in the Barnstable Deeds are:

SMITH, DAVIS F (AS TR) 

WEAS, TOBIAS A (AS TR)

HORTON, WILLIAM W (AS TR) 

Those appointments are signed/authorized in June 2010 and recorded in the Barnstable Deeds by Trustees: 
Hagberg, LaMantia, Monroe and Franks


----------



## Sou13

You must be able to "view" the documents because all three of the abstracts have them all listed as "Gtor":

Bk-Pg:24614-288    Recorded: 06-14-2010 @ 3:02:29pm  Inst #: 29234  Chg: Y  Vfy: N  Sec: N

Pages in document: 10 
Grp: 1 
Type: Notice 
Desc: 5771/278 

Town: COUNTY 

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE TRUST (BY TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: HORTON, WILLIAM (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: STRYON, SCOTT C (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: BLOCKER, KEVIN L (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: FRANKS, THOMAS (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: LAMANTIA, STEVE (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: HAGBERG, CLIFFORD (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: MONROE, MARK (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: HORTON, WILLIAM W III (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: SMITH, DAVIS F (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: WEAS, TOBIAS A (AS TR) (Gtor) 
Gtor: HORTON, WILLIAM W (AS TR) (Gtor) 


 Return addr:  FESTIVA DEVELOPMENT 
  1 VANCE GAP RD 
  ASHEVILLE NC 28805  

Recording Fee: 50.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00


----------



## Sou13

*WBZ-TV to Report on SANDCASTLE- P'Town*



ChrisH said:


> Yesterday afternoon, I spoke to Jon Wells of WBZ-TV Channel 4 Boston who interviewed Cliff Hagberg and some Sandcastle unit owners within the last 2 weeks.
> 
> Jon said the short segment about Sandcastle will be aired on the 11 o'clock news next Monday night.  ( It will probably be repeated on the morning news Tuesday)
> 
> For those of you who are out of state, you will most likely be able to watch the segment by going to http://wbztv.com/local on Tuesday and locating the story in the local news section.
> 
> Usually at the end of each story section you may also post comments!  So here is a chance for more owners to air their views in the media.
> 
> ChrisH


If you happen to be staying at Southcape this week, be sure to stay up for this!


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, Laurie!*

"Laurie" posted the link to the WBZ news story.  It's http://wbztv.com/local/time.share.investigation.2.1826266.html
There's a script version of the video on the right.  See also http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=958099&postcount=215 for comments by ChrisH.

I was fortunate to be able to view the coverage on WBZ last evening, then put on the TV this a.m. to find out whether it got aired again.  As far as I know it didn't but I was dozing off and on so I'm grateful for the link.  Here's the link to the post by "Laurie":  Sandcastle/Festiva saga on Boston TV


----------



## tombo

Sou13 said:


> "Laurie" posted the link to the WBZ news story.  It's http://wbztv.com/local/time.share.investigation.2.1826266.html
> There's a script version of the video on the right.  See also http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=958099&postcount=215 for comments by ChrisH.
> 
> I was fortunate to be able to view the coverage on WBZ last evening, then put on the TV this a.m. to find out whether it got aired again.  As far as I know it didn't but I was dozing off and on so I'm grateful for the link.  Here's the link to the post by "Laurie":  Sandcastle/Festiva saga on Boston TV



Wow, in that new story Festiva said they would return the deeds to any owner who felt they were misled into giving them up. I bet a large per cent of the new Festiva members would like to get their deeds back. Now if you can just let the Festiva converts know so that they can get their deeds back before before Festiva changes their mind.


----------



## Classylassy523

*Sounds generous of Festiva, doesn't it.*



tombo said:


> Wow, in that new story Festiva said they would return the deeds to any owner who felt they were misled into giving them up. I bet a large per cent of the new Festiva members would like to get their deeds back. Now if you can just let the Festiva converts know so that they can get their deeds back before before Festiva changes their mind.



I noticed that Festiva specifically said Sandcastle owners ... nothing was said about the Southcape owners.  FestivaRep led the reader to believe that all that has been happening has only been at Sandcastle.  Anyone who has been following these threads know that owners at both the Sandcastle Resort and the Southcape Resort were lied to, stolen from, coerced, threatened and supplied with misinformation time and time again.  Also, will Festiva be refunding the thousands of dollars these owners paid?  And, what about the owners who took out loans to pay these charges?  Are they going to be forgiven?  On the surface, Festiva sounds so very generous, kind and considerate.  Is this generousity a ploy to ward off state and federal investigations.  In this age of information availability at the click of a mouse, they missed the mark with timeshare owners in Massachusetts.  Hopefully owners in other states will be impervious to threats and false 'gifts' when Festiva moves into their resorts.


----------



## tombo

Classylassy523 said:


> I noticed that Festiva specifically said Sandcastle owners ... nothing was said about the Southcape owners.  FestivaRep led the reader to believe that all that has been happening has only been at Sandcastle.  Anyone who has been following these threads know that owners at both the Sandcastle Resort and the Southcape Resort were lied to, stolen from, coerced, threatened and supplied with misinformation time and time again.  Also, will Festiva be refunding the thousands of dollars these owners paid?  And, what about the owners who took out loans to pay these charges?  Are they going to be forgiven?  On the surface, Festiva sounds so very generous, kind and considerate.  Is this generousity a ploy to ward off state and federal investigations.  In this age of information availability at the click of a mouse, they missed the mark with timeshare owners in Massachusetts.  Hopefully owners in other states will be impervious to threats and false 'gifts' when Festiva moves into their resorts.



Please don't misunderstand me. I have no doubt that Festiva will not return anyone's money, change the way they do business, or start selling their points using ethical methods. I do not for one second think they are doing it for any other reason than for good P.R. and to try and keep the attorney general from suing them. The only thing I was saying is that the people who were tricked and ripped off will never get their money back (unless festiva is legally forced to do so), but for at least this one brief moment they might have a chance to regain their deed. That will put them in a much better place than they are now where they own nothing but some worthless Festiva points.


----------



## Sou13

*Corrected directors and officers*

I placed a call to the legal department of the Massachusetts corporations division of the Secretary of State's office and as a result there has been a correction made to the board of directors of Southcape Resort Community Association, Inc.  Here's the link to the corrected screen:  http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/corp/co...ReadFromDB=True&UpdateAllowed=&FEIN=042922230

This means that there were four directors, not five, but even five is illegal because there were only three when NEVS bought the inventory from Barth & Woods in 2008.

I was informed that the person responsible for filing annual reports for 2009 was Clifford Hagberg but if there is a change on the board it is the present clerk who is responsible for filing the reports.  These reports were due 2 1/2 months after the start of the fiscal year, which means that NEVMSLLC was responsible for filing for 2009 and 2010.  Elizabeth McNichols may have been the clerk when Barth & Woods were on the board but the notice of change of directors or officers listed Clifford Hagberg as the Clerk.

If these reports are not filed, the corporation can be dissolved.  If Festiva takes over the board, they may prefer to have the corporation dissolved!  Who collects the maintenance fees?  Who pays the bills?  Who signs the checks?  Does the resort manager work for Festiva or for the deeded owners who are members of the corporation?  Did Clifford Hagberg pay himself to do things he has neglected to do?

If Club members are not members of the Corporation they do not have a vote in the Corporation.  If Festiva isn't paying Maintenance Fees for the 540 weeks they bought from NEVS they should not be able to use those weeks and should not have voting rights, either.

I have published the Condo II Declaration of Trust at https://acrobat.com/#d=q72EZrUrEK3MT4iUnFaiTA


----------



## Sou13

*Thanks for the update!*



jannibaby said:


> We were down the Cape (Unit 8) from 7/3 - 7/10.  Kim called as soon as we walked in the door.  This was at the same time I realized that the bedroom furniture and bathrooms had not been redone as promised last year.  The mattresses were new and the living room furniture and carpeting was new.  They replaced the loveseat with two chairs.  That was disappointing.  Also we had no bottom shelf in our refrigerator.  All the shelves had been moved down to make us "not notice" it.  Not having a bottom shelf meant the vegetable and crisper drawers were wide open.  So I was not very pleasant when Kim called.  I told her I know about all of the changes and that they wanted us to convert to points but that there was no way we were.  I told Kim that if time permitted, we would be willing to sit with her simply to ask questions and listen to their sales pitch for curiousity's sake.  As it turned out, we never did find a suitable time to speak with her.  I will admit that Kim did follow through and get a bottom shelf delivered the next day.
> 
> What was interesting were the conversations I had with people in the pool area.  One family was visited at their house by one of the unscrupulous salesmen.  They were smart and did not give up their deed.  They were planning on going to a meeting with Kim later on in the week.  When I saw them later that week, they told me that the price to convert had risen to $8,000!  I questioned it and they said Kim had told them that the previous price was way too low!  I then met several people on Sunday the 11th (my sister was renting so I stayed the weekend).  There were several different parties there.  All of them were very upset about what was happening and none of them were giving up their deed.  They mentioned that while they were in the meeting, there were several other familes upstairs converting their deeds to points.  It seems odd that everyone I spoke to said they weren't interested in converting but that they saw many people that were.  I also met a woman whose grandfather was one of the original trustees, Joseph Bottari.  I definitely remember seeing that name on documents.  I told all of them to register on TUG and to search for the yahoo group.  Unfortunately, I was not sharp enough to remember to bring a pen and paper to get their email addresses.


I apologize for not getting back to you on this update sooner.

I looked up Joseph Bottari in the Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access and found that he was a trustee for Condo I when we had two separate trusts and owners meetings.  The two were combined into one when I've learned that Sateriale and DePamphilis went bankrupt and Barth and Woods were able to buy the unsold inventory, most of it in Condo II, at "firesale price" which I have yet to track down.  That was when the Town of Mashpee took possession of the undeveloped parcel for nonpayment of taxes.

I have posted Form 1120H in the Southcape Archives 1989 folder and the link to the Southcape Rumor Mill in the 1990 folder.  This explains how we came to be meeting together but now how it was made legal.  I can find no documents in the Registry but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

The reason I'm delving into the legality of what's been going on at Southcape is that I believe that none of it has been legal and that our Master Deed spells out what is.  I believe it's spelled out in the Master Deed that weeks are to be sold as *weeks*, not points!

I've also noted that there have been no converted weeks registered in July but again that doesn't mean that owners aren't falling for the Festiva sales pitch.  I've also learned that our clubhouse is being used for promotion of Festiva and that there are no more social activities.  Better to send owners off to explore the Cape than to find out what's really going on at Southcape!


----------



## Sou13

*More owner reports*

There have been many changes at Southcape since Festiva muscled in and took over the management of our resort.  Here are some of the reports I've received from owners:

Prior to arrival, owners are being contacted by "Kim" who will even go so far as to call on their cell phones.  Upon arrival, they are given a form to fill out by a woman sitting at a desk in front of the alcove containing the tourist brochures (previously Mike's spot) asking for personal information including the question *"Are you married, single, or cohabitating?"* and are asked to sign it before they can check in to their units!

So here we have a management in place that not only contacts us at home but asks about our marital status or lack thereof!

Our clubhouse is being used to tout all the "wonderful benefits" of membership in the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club instead of for social gatherings for owners.  The only social gathering in the clubhouse is the Sunday a.m. informational coffee and danish (or muffins) which encourages guests to spend their time exploring the Cape and beyond rather than socializing with other owners.

While the $8,000 price tag quoted above may seem higher than the price tag that was given to those visited in their homes, it may be inaccurate.  The price given to me by two reporting owners was closer to $5,000 but what makes it more outrageous is that summer weeks owners are giving up deeds which are worth at least $3,000 more than off-season weeks, which might account for the $8,000 figure quoted above.  On top of that the "club membership" annual fee is $838 for summer weeks owners because it is based on the amount charged for 4800 points.

Why, you may wonder, does it cost so much to belong to the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club?  Is it because the Festiva Development Group has to recoup the $1,000,000 they paid for the 540 weeks they bought from NEVS?  

The reason given by the on-site salesperson was that the resort needs to be upgraded to the standards expected by club members who are used to *granite countertops*, among other outrageous things.  So who cares what kind of countertops we have so long as we can prepare a simple meal in the kitchen?  Aren't granite countertops a highly impractical, difficult-to-maintain fad that will become as dated as the blue bathtubs?

I personally prefer to find all the appliances in good repair and no septic system problems (which owners have paid to have repaired) and I want to escape to the Cape rather than having to deal with pesky salespeople swarming all over the place.

When I approached other "guests" in February, the daughter of a previous owner who had converted to the FAC complained to the management and I was asked not to approach the "guests" which I then stopped doing (and checked out).  So it's OK for owners to be bothered by pesky Festiva salespeople who are using our clubhouse for sales purposes instead of for social gatherings, but it's not OK for owners to try to contact other owners to warn them not to fall for the Festiva spiel?  If I see you about to step off a cliff, do I not have the right *and responsibility* to warn you that you are about to fall off the cliff? 

Please see my post at http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=943826&postcount=393 about the "Strangler Fig" that has taken over our resort.


----------



## Sou13

*AG Coakley Obtains Injunction Against Several Individuals*

July 20, 2010 - For immediate release: 
*AG Coakley Obtains Injunction Against Several Individuals for Defrauding Cape Cod Timeshare Owners and for the Unlicensed Practice of Law*

I find it ironic that the AGO is going after timeshare resalers for scamming 300 "victims" out of up to $3085 each but seems to be ignoring the more than 750 Southcape and Sandcastle/Royal Coachman victims who've been scammed out of $3195 each.  *That's more than $2,300,000!*


----------



## Sou13

*I stand corrected*

I've been advised by two owners who've enjoyed their stays at Southcape this summer that there are social activities for owners and that there is a schedule of these activities in the "Welcome" packet given out upon arrival.

I appreciate any and all corrections of misrepresentations made by and to me.


----------



## judyjht

*??*

My brother owns one week (next week) and after that he was thinking of either giving the week away or turning the deed back in and walking away.  What are your thoughts on this?  It is not that convenient for them any more.  They built a cabin in upstate NY so they go there most of the time.  Anyone have any thoughts on either of these options??  By the way, it is paid for so no issue there. All the fees have been paid also.


----------



## Time Out

*What Week*

Hi Judyjht,
I am an owner at Sandcastle and would consider another unit. What week are we talking about?


----------



## judyjht

He owns either week 33 or 34 at Southcape - not Sandcastle.


----------



## Sou13

*File a consumer complaint*



Sou13 said:


> _*Festiva Resorts gave us a statement saying complaints at the Sandcastle are largely related to the actions of Cliff Hagberg and Outfield Marketing, not Festiva. The company did say, however, that it will return property deeds to any Sandcastle owners who feel they were pressured to join Festiva*._ http://wbztv.com/local/time.share.investigation.2.1826266.html
> 
> Festiva has said that they did not get any of the $3000+ fees that people paid for Festiva points. Per Festiva this money went to Outfield Marketing. Cliff Hagberg (NEVMSLLC) has admitted that NEVS was the agent so if this is accurate, NEVS has profited a lot from shaking down owners. That's the kind of trustee that Southcape and Sandcastle owners could trust! Festiva now has 500 units at Sandcastle. At over $3000 per unit, that is $1.5 M. Members of the Sandcastle owner's advisory group have been asked to ask Cliff who got the proceeds from these sales. So far he has failed to answer the question. We know that NEVMSLLC has access to this site, so perhaps this will be the motivation he needs to answer the question.
> 
> Until he was confronted with paperwork at the Sandcastle owners meeting this April, NEVMSLLC kept saying that the companies were completely separate and he had nothing to do with the sales. When the paperwork was passed out at the annual meeting he was forced to admit that NEVS was an agent for Festiva.
> 
> Some major discrepancies with the paperwork used to transfer deeds to Festiva have been uncovered. Many were illegally notarized in Denton TX by a notary who swore that she witnessed the signatures. Several people have been identified who now believe that their paperwork may have been forged.
> 
> If you bought Festiva points, email:
> 
> ownerservices@festiva.travel
> 
> and demand that they send you the documents that prove that you transferred your deed.
> 
> If you were surprised to find out that you relinquished your deed, this may explain why. The paperwork is very clear and anybody that legitimately signed it would know what they did.
> 
> All of this has been communicated to the Attorney General.  http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=970106#post970106


As a result of the WBZ-TV investigation the above info was posted to *Festiva takes over resort* because the investigation focused on Sandcastle/Royal Coachman in Provincetown.

If you are a former Southcape owner who feels you may have been scammed out of your deeded week, take a look at your contract.  Was your signature notarized?  If it was, where was it notarized?  Who witnessed your signature, and where?

If you feel that you have been scammed out of your week, you need to File a Consumer Complaint with the AGO.  Regardless of where you live, the timeshare is in Massachusetts and it's the Massachusetts AGO that needs your complaint.  *The Attorney General's office in Massachusetts said it has so far received 49 complaints from timeshare owners at the Sandcastle. A spokeswoman told us the agency is still interested in hearing from people who feel they may have been subjected to false or misleading sales tactics.*


----------



## Time Out

I have a fixed week and I converted one of my weeks to Festiva. Does the AG want to hear my story?


----------



## JamesT RI

*I want my money back*

I switched to Festiva. HOw can I get my money back?


----------



## Sou13

Time Out and JamesT RI,

Did you own weeks at Southcape?  If so, please email me.

The article states that Festiva is offering to return *Sandcastle* deeds, and doesn't say anything about getting your money back.  This is why the AGO needs to get involved.  If none of the $3185 went to Festiva, it's NEVS/Outfield Marketing that scammed you out of your money: _* "Festiva Resorts gave us a statement saying complaints at the Sandcastle are largely related to the actions of Cliff Hagberg and Outfield Marketing, not Festiva. The company did say, however, that it will return property deeds to any Sandcastle owners who feel they were pressured to join Festiva."*_


----------



## Fig

Sou13 said:


> Time Out and JamesT RI,
> 
> Did you own weeks at Southcape?  If so, please email me.
> 
> The article states that Festiva is offering to return *Sandcastle* deeds, and doesn't say anything about getting your money back.  This is why the AGO needs to get involved.  If none of the $3185 went to Festiva, it's NEVS/Outfield Marketing that scammed you out of your money: _* "Festiva Resorts gave us a statement saying complaints at the Sandcastle are largely related to the actions of Cliff Hagberg and Outfield Marketing, not Festiva. The company did say, however, that it will return property deeds to any Sandcastle owners who feel they were pressured to join Festiva."*_



If Festiva is claiming to have nothing to do with this mess, why was their legal dept receiving documents as far back as March of 09? As you found, Sou, I think the person in the legal dept was someone by the name of Kathy Braddock. Festiva is neither the grantor nor grantee, yet the paperwork is going not to Cliff Hagberg nor other principals in TX but to 1 Vance Gap Road in NC. How did Cliff and a company with a shack for an address in TX (Outfield Marketing) secure a $2.5 loan; what did they use for collateral? 

 Partial Discharge
Bk-Pg:23537-176 Recorded: 03-18-2009 @ 10:05:13am Inst #: 13836 Chg: N Vfy: N Sec: N

Pages in document: 2
Grp: 1
Type: Partial Discharge
Desc: UNIT 409 TIME 9
Refers to Book: 23138-185

Town: PROVINCETOWN Addr: ROUTE 6A

Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor)

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)

Return addr: FESTIVA RESORTS
1 VANCE GAP ROAD
ASHEVILLE NC 28805

Recording Fee: 50.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00


Bk-Pg:23537-181 Recorded: 03-18-2009 @ 10:05:13am Inst #: 13838 Chg: N Vfy: N Sec: N

Pages in document: 2
Grp: 1
Type: Partial Discharge
Desc: UNIT 403 TIME 9
Refers to Book: 23138-185

Town: PROVINCETOWN Addr: ROUTE 6A

Gtor: COLEBROOK FINANCIAL COMPANY LLC (Gtor)

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)

Return addr: FESTIVA RESORTS
1 VANCE GAP ROAD
ASHEVILLE NC 28805

Recording Fee: 50.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00
__________________


----------



## Time Out

*Dont know what to do*

I paid money to Outfield, however I am a member of Festiva. I am guessing it was like when i bought mine back in the 80's. I paid my money to the developer of Sandcastle and later Southcape and became a member of RCI.

Sorry Soul13 i am not great with computers, i dont know how to email you directly.

Do you think i will get anywhere if i contact the resort, New England vacation services or outfield?


----------



## Time Out

*Personal Private Information*

Hi Soul13,

I dont know why you are asking for my "Personal and Priviate Information". I am a bit skeptical giving my private information to someone i dont know over the internet. I am 70 years old and may not not be the most computer savvy but i am not stupid. I dont know how my personal information would alter your advice to me. 

I did not ask for your advice, I asked the group. I just thought I could get some advice before i spent the money and hired a lawyer as i am on a fixed income. 

If ANYONE can help me I sure would appreciate it. I have read my Festiva contract from Southcape over and over. I dont thnk there is a way out. 

Thanks.


----------



## Sou13

Time Out,

How can anyone help you if you can't say for certain whether you ever owned a Southcape week?  Only deeded owners who converted to Festiva have a case against NEVS/Outfield Marketing.  If you ever owned a week at Southcape or Sandcastle there's a *public* record of it at https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.PGM.  All of the Southcape weeks that were converted to Festiva are recorded there.

If you email me privately and give a name that doesn't appear in the records, how were you able to convert a week to Festiva?

I'm no spring chicken myself, have owned my "float" Southcape week for more than 1/4 century, but it's never too late to learn how to access these deeds.  I don't even own a computer, have to come to the public library or community college in order to do research.

Furthermore, I now have to pay $38 in fees for a student ID in order to continue using the Internet at the community college, and this means taking a course and finding the textbook for less than the $114 bookstore price.  I just hope that the ID is good for more than a semester!


----------



## Time Out

*I may be in the wrong place*

Hi Soul13,

I want to clarify, i did say i am an owner at Southcape. Desiree is my eldest daughter, she found this site, set up the account. She associated an email address she had for over 10 years and doesnt use anymore.

I think i am in the wrong group. It appears when i joined festiva i lost my deed. Technally i am no longer an owner at Southcape. So i guess you are correct.

I only have two questions and welcome answers from anyone. How do i get my deed back and is there a group for prior owners of Southcape who joined festiva and lost their deed. 

Thanks.


----------



## Sou13

Time Out,

The southcapeownersyahoogroup is accepting Southcape owners who converted to Festiva, whether you are happy or unhappy with Festiva or, for that matter, whether you are happy or unhappy with Southcape!

The link above brings you to the home page where the purpose of the group is stated and you are invited to join.

If you are sincere about wanting your deed back, I sincerely want to help.


----------



## Time Out

*Deed Back*

any adivce on how to get my deed back would be appreciated


----------



## Sou13

Re "Deed back" above:

See Post #1314 above.  Take a look at your paperwork.  Was it notarized by the salesperson who connived you into converting your deeded week to Festiva points?  If not, let me know!


----------



## Time Out

It was notarized i believe but i did sign the papers


----------



## Time Out

*dont know*

My paperwork is notarized.


----------



## Sou13

Where was it notarized?  By the time it was filed with the Barnstable Registry, it had to be notarized, but was it notarized by the salesperson who connived you into giving up your deed?


----------



## Time Out

*Where was it notarized*

It was notarized under my signature. I do not know the notary.


----------



## scrjs

*Getting Southcape Deeds Returned from Festiva*

Hi Time Out and Others,

As has been stated, Festiva promised to return Sandcastle deeds and seems  eager to do so. They did not promise to return Southcape deeds that I am aware of however since the deeds were all obtained through the same marketing methods it appears that they should be willing to turn the deeds over to Southcape owners too.

It appears that all the deeds or almost all were illegally notarized. Some people were aware they were turning over their deeds, but some people were not and they may not have actually signed the quitclaim deeds.

Festiva is claiming that all fees for conversion went to Outfield Marketing and New England Vacation Services. Of course people also want their money back, but Festiva is not promising that.

Is there a lawsuit in all of this? Probably.


----------



## Time Out

Thank you for the info. It sounds like I need to contact Festiva. It seems like no one responds to requests for advice on this website. Do you know of any other sites like this that people are more responsive?

Thanks again for the info


----------



## Sou13

*What more do you want?*

Time Out,

I contacted you by email, you refused to give enough info for me to be able to help.  Then I contacted the Sandcastle owner who posted the above and now you claim that "It seems like no one responds to requests for advice on this website":rofl: 

Your questions have been answered.  If you believe you have been scammed, File a complaint with the AGO and contact ownerservices@festiva.travel as posted earlier.

For info about joining in the civil action, go to Links > Legal Actions and watch for updates coming soon.


----------



## Time Out

*You did not give me any advice*

Soul

You told me of another group that you owned, then you wanted my legal name, my wifes legal name and our address. I dont believe you needed all that information to give me some advice. It was my understanding this site was created for the free views and opinions and help.

Everyone beware of people wanting personal information over the internet. My daughter works in the IT field and she warned me. Soul, I dont know your motives or care. Everyone beware of people wanting personal information 

You sent me an email to join a group you owned and only would let me in with extreemly personal information. I checked out your "group" it only has 7 or so members.

If anyone has any helpful advice without the requirement of me divulging personal information i would be very thankful.

If someone thinks it would help me file to file complaint with the AG's office please help.

Thanks


----------



## scrjs

*Filing a Complaint with the Attorney General*

Everyone who feels that they were mislead by salesman into turning over their deeds and paying the $3000+ fee should file a complaint with the Attorney General. Companies named should be the resort (Southcape or Sandcastle), New England Vacation Services, Outfield Marketing and Festiva Resort since all are complicit in this scam. 

The complaint should include such things as harassing phone calls (especially if you are on the no call list), the use of scare tactics such as telling people they would be responsible for huge special assessments or could have their credit ruined, telling people they had only a short time to take the salesman upon the offer, etc. etc. *If you did not know that you lost your deed in all of this, be sure to tell the Attorney General that fact. *After denying a business relationship with Festiva for a long time (see his many posts on this forum), Cliff Hagberg has finally had to admit that his company NEVS served as the agent for Festiva for the sales. The only reason he did so was that the documents verifying that NEVS was the seller of Festiva points was distributed at the annual meeting at Sandcastle. Festiva says that ALL of the $3000+ in fees went to NEVS and Outfield who were serving as trustees for the resort. In their position as trustees they took the owner's list (which they would not release to owners as required by law) and basically shook down owners for what might amount to over $1 M since approx 750 deeds were turned over to Festiva.


----------



## Sou13

Time Out said:


> Soul
> 
> You told me of another group that you owned, then you wanted my legal name, my wifes legal name and our address. I dont believe you needed all that information to give me some advice. It was my understanding this site was created for the free views and opinions and help.
> 
> Everyone beware of people wanting personal information over the internet. My daughter works in the IT field and she warned me. Soul, I dont know your motives or care. Everyone beware of people wanting personal information
> 
> You sent me an email to join a group you owned and only would let me in with extreemly personal information. I checked out your "group" it only has 7 or so members.
> 
> If anyone has any helpful advice without the requirement of me divulging personal information i would be very thankful.
> 
> If someone thinks it would help me file to file complaint with the AG's office please help.
> 
> Thanks


"Time Out":

If you are "mudslide" who requested to join the group, here's my email reply sent a week ago yesterday:

"I'm the owner of the Southcapeowners Yahoogroup who needs to approve membership requests.  In order to accept your request I need more info about you, specifically the name on your deed.  When I can verify that you owned a Southcape week I will approve your request and try to help you get your deed back."

I then asked the other 8 members of this recently-formed growing group whether I did the right thing.  None of the members disagreed with me.

I have made the Links public in order that nonmembers can get help such as what you are requesting.

So if you haven't given me any credit for giving any help or "advice" then my "advice" is for you to come clean and prove that you owned a Southcape week.  Just as you warned that everyone should beware of anyone asking for personal info over the Internet, I must beware of anyone asking to join a group without giving proof that they actually owned a Southcape week.  To be less careful would be a grave disservice to the other group members.

If you also owned a Sandcastle week you might request to join the Sandcastle Googlegroup.  Let "scrjs" steer you in the right direction on this.


----------



## tombo

Time Out said:


> Soul
> 
> You told me of another group that you owned, then you wanted my legal name, my wifes legal name and our address. I dont believe you needed all that information to give me some advice. It was my understanding this site was created for the free views and opinions and help.
> 
> Everyone beware of people wanting personal information over the internet. My daughter works in the IT field and she warned me. Soul, I dont know your motives or care. Everyone beware of people wanting personal information
> 
> You sent me an email to join a group you owned and only would let me in with extreemly personal information. I checked out your "group" it only has 7 or so members.
> 
> If anyone has any helpful advice without the requirement of me divulging personal information i would be very thankful.
> 
> If someone thinks it would help me file to file complaint with the AG's office please help.
> 
> Thanks



I understand your concern about giving out personal information, but I can assure you that no deeds would have been returned, no attorney generals mobilized,no law suits would have been filed, and very little else (if anything) would have happened to help owners fight Festiva, Outfield Marketing, and Cliff Hagberg without SOU13's tireless efforts. If you go wayyy back in this thread you will see sou13 mobilizing owners, researching facts, sparring with the owners who bought the resort's unsold inventory to make money by tricking people out of their deeds, and much more to benefit ALL owners. SOU13 is why owners currently have a chance to regain their deeds from Festiva, an opportunity to kick out the unwelcomed owners taking over your resort, and SOU13 is the only reason that they are not continuing to take deeds as fast as they can from unsuspecting owners using outfield marketing's misleading sales tactics. 

In the past the owner Cliff Hagberg disquised his identity and acted like an owner to get inside information on the the strategies SOU13 was using to fight back for the good of owners. Cliff also was caught using numerous fake identities here on this thread, so you can understand SOU13's desire to verify someone before letting them join the group.You can give SOU13 your personal informaton or not, but if you really want help give SOU13 enough information to join the group. 

If you go back through the 1000's of posts on this thread to where SOU13  first started, and continue to the present, you will realize that all owners at both of these resorts owe SOU13 a debt of gratitude for thousands of hours of research on behalf of all owners. This is from one who owned at another resort Festiva is taking over and posted the first warning here. SOU13 read my warnings, investigated, and took it upon herself to stop them from taking over the resort she loves. SOU13 was offered money by the interloping owners to sell her week and get out of their hair a long time ago. SOU13 could have taken the money and run leaving others to fend for themselves, but instead stood strong and fought the battle. You can keep your information secret, you can research yourself, but if you don't join SOU13's group you are only hurting yourself IMO.


----------



## Russ45

tombo said:


> I understand your concern about giving out personal information, but I can assure you that no deeds would have been returned, no attorney generals mobilized,no law suits would have been filed, and very little else (if anything) would have happened to help owners fight Festiva, Outfield Marketing, and Cliff Hagberg without SOU13's tireless efforts. If you go wayyy back in this thread you will see sou13 mobilizing owners, researching facts, sparring with the owners who bought the resort's unsold inventory to make money by tricking people out of their deeds, and much more to benefit ALL owners. SOU13 is why owners currently have a chance to regain their deeds from Festiva, an opportunity to kick out the unwelcomed owners taking over your resort, and SOU13 is the only reason that they are not continuing to take deeds as fast as they can from unsuspecting owners using outfield marketing's misleading sales tactics.
> 
> In the past the owner Cliff Hagberg disquised his identity and acted like an owner to get inside information on the the strategies SOU13 was using to fight back for the good of owners. Cliff also was caught using numerous fake identities here on this thread, so you can understand SOU13's desire to verify someone before letting them join the group.You can give SOU13 your personal informaton or not, but if you really want help give SOU13 enough information to join the group.
> 
> If you go back through the 1000's of posts on this thread to where SOU13  first started, and continue to the present, you will realize that all owners at both of these resorts owe SOU13 a debt of gratitude for thousands of hours of research on behalf of all owners. This is from one who owned at another resort Festiva is taking over and posted the first warning here. SOU13 read my warnings, investigated, and took it upon herself to stop them from taking over the resort she loves. SOU13 was offered money by the interloping owners to sell her week and get out of their hair a long time ago. SOU13 could have taken the money and run leaving others to fend for themselves, but instead stood strong and fought the battle. You can keep your information secret, you can research yourself, but if you don't join SOU13's group you are only hurting yourself IMO.



I'd like to second Tombo's praise and I am an owner of a deeded week at Southcape.  Sou13 has invested more of her personal time than the rest of us combined and all owners are indebted to her efforts in understanding what has transpired at the resort.  Thanks again Sou13, I am truly grateful.


----------



## ChrisH

*SANDCASTLE PTown Owners*

Sandcastle Resort owners can join the Sandcastle email group or get assistance with AG complaints etc. by writing to:

scresponds@yahoo.com

If you want to join the email group, we will also need to verify your name on the deed.

This includes Sandcastle owners who purchased FAC membership and are not happy.

See many related posts in the Sandcastle forums.

It would be nice to keep the Sandcastle resort discussions in one place so owners can follow along, but there are many forums with Sandcastle PTown.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107119&highlight=sandcastle

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85788&highlight=sandcastle



Chris H


----------



## Sou13

*Festiva MF increase, special assessment, and reserve*

I can't understand why FAC members aren't in an uproar over this:

*"Festiva Hospitality Group passes this news along with sincere empathy as it has certainly felt the pain firsthand.  As we mentioned last year, Festiva Hospitality Group (while under no obligation to do so) has subsidized the Adventure Club's bad debt in an amount approaching $1 million dollars in 2009.  We mention the above contribution as we pridict that the news of this special assessment could be met by accusations and rumors spread among members through various internet outlets or at the resorts since there was such a large increase in maintenance fees in 2010."*

Time does not permit me to manually reproduce the contents of the letter today.  If I can print a copy and then scan it into RTF tomorrow I will do so.  Meanwhile, *why no uproar?*


----------



## Classylassy523

Sou13 said:


> I can't understand why FAC members aren't in an uproar over this:
> 
> Time does not permit me to manually reproduce the contents of the letter today.  If I can print a copy and then scan it into RTF tomorrow I will do so.  Meanwhile, *why no uproar?*



Especially when Festiva gave all of the money collected for the purchase of memberships in FAC to Outfield Marketing and NEVS.  At Sandcastle and Southcape that had to have been $2,000,000 at least.  No wonder Festiva is saying they won't return the money when they return the deed(s).  Sounds like they might be scratching the bottom of the barrel.  Either that or they have a lifestyle to maintain and they expect everyone else to pay for it.

Wonder if the courts will be sympathetic.


----------



## timeos2

*They don't want owners to know or react*



Sou13 said:


> I can't understand why FAC members aren't in an uproar over this:
> 
> *"Festiva Hospitality Group passes this news along with sincere empathy as it has certainly felt the pain firsthand.  As we mentioned last year, Festiva Hospitality Group (while under no obligation to do so) has subsidized the Adventure Club's bad debt in an amount approaching $1 million dollars in 2009.  We mention the above contribution as we pridict that the news of this special assessment could be met by accusations and rumors spread among members through various internet outlets or at the resorts since there was such a large increase in maintenance fees in 2010."*
> 
> Time does not permit me to manually reproduce the contents of the letter today.  If I can print a copy and then scan it into RTF tomorrow I will do so.  Meanwhile, *why no uproar?*



As usual there is no organized, large group of owners to rise up against this screwed up and owner gouging group. So many developer / sales systems depend on the lack of organization from the individual owners - and do all they possibly can to make sure it stays disorganized - so they stay in control and can call the shots. 

Yes, owners can and have stepped up and taken control but the fight never seems to end and far too often the developer has the resources to simply wear down the owners and end up getting their way. I hope this group hangs in there and finds a way to beat this back and have control for owners but it is a challenging thing that so far doesn't appear to be on a successful track.


----------



## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> I can't understand why FAC members aren't in an uproar over this:
> 
> *"Festiva Hospitality Group passes this news along with sincere empathy as it has certainly felt the pain firsthand.  As we mentioned last year, Festiva Hospitality Group (while under no obligation to do so) has subsidized the Adventure Club's bad debt in an amount approaching $1 million dollars in 2009.  We mention the above contribution as we pridict that the news of this special assessment could be met by accusations and rumors spread among members through various internet outlets or at the resorts since there was such a large increase in maintenance fees in 2010."*
> 
> Time does not permit me to manually reproduce the contents of the letter today.  If I can print a copy and then scan it into RTF tomorrow I will do so.  Meanwhile, *why no uproar?*


I hae posted the contents of the letter at http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=990010&postcount=403

Please go there and read it.  If you own a week at Southcape or no longer own a Southcape week because you converted to Festiva, please post your reactions here.

As a Southcape owner who has fallen prey to takeover by the Festiva Hospitality Group it looks to me as though our MF will have to increase again because we haven't brought the resort up to FAC standards. * No granite counter tops* unless they are already being installed.

It also appears to me that Festiva is renting out the weeks that were purchased from NEVS.  Deeded owners who tried renting out their weeks through the resort were unable to do so.

It also appears to me that someone left a zero out of the total membership in the second paragraph.  That is exactly what's in the letter: *20,000*!

The FAC member who forwarded me a copy of the letter is fuming.  She was scared or scammed into converting a summer week by the in-home Outfield Marketer in 2008.  She made notes and sent me a copy of her notes.  She is embarrassed to use her name because it will forever be online that she fell for the scare tactics.  Not only did she pay NEVS $3185 to convert her week to the FAC, but also her MF to Festiva for 2009 was more than $200 more than the MF to Southcape Resort, *before* the increase for 2010.  She paid NEVS (yes, that is where the contract says that the money went) $3185 to avoid a Special Assessment of $400.  She has already paid Festiva more than the $400 she avoided paying Southcape and is still out the $3185 she paid NEVS to avoid the special assessment.

Now she's being hit with another FAC MF increase and an additional $400 special assessment.  I'm assuming that the $50 reserve is included in the MF increase for 2011, but if it isn't, that adds another $50 to the MF+SA for 2011.

If FAC members are able to get their deeds back the FAC's MFs will continue to increase.

My concern with falling prey to Festiva has always been that it's one more layer of management and mismanagement.  I'm inclined to believe it's the latter.


----------



## Time Out

*Credit Where Credit is Due*

I want to thank everyone for your responses and advice. Soul, I am sorry if i offended you. From everyone who spoke up for you, I know you mean well. Anayway, it has been 4 years since I visited the Sandcastle Resort. Well, I called Festiva and booked a long weekend. I dont know if any of you have been to the resort as of late. I was amazed. The resort looks better than it has in 20 years. Granted the owners paid for it with the assessment, but its nice to see the improvements. We had a great time in P-Town. Hopefully they will renovate the inside next.


----------



## Sou13

Time Out,

I'm still confused.  Did you ever own a Southcape week?  In your earliest posts it looks as though you converted a Sandcastle week to Festiva and still own one Sandcastle week.

Now that you've spent a weekend at Sandcastle, it looks as though you're advocating staying with Festiva.  Which week do you want back, the Southcape week (if you indeed ever owned one) or the Sandcastle week?

*Sou13* (That's a "13", *not* an "l")


----------



## Time Out

Hi Sou13,
Sorry for the mix up in your name, it was just a typo. As I stated earlier I own a fixed week at Sandcastle and I owned a week at Southcape that I traded in for points with Festiva. I dont appreciate your condscending comments, I have been nothing but nice and up front as to my intentions. Can you please keep this forum professional. I would still like my week back from Southcape, however, I used the points from Festiva to stay at Sandcastle, so I figure if I can get more usage for me and my family its ok with me. So its no big deal if I cant get my deed back. Anayway, thanks again for your help.


----------



## Sou13

Time Out said:


> I want to thank everyone for your responses and advice. Soul, I am sorry if i offended you. From everyone who spoke up for you, I know you mean well. Anayway, it has been 4 years since I visited the Sandcastle Resort. Well, I called Festiva and booked a long weekend. I dont know if any of you have been to the resort as of late. I was amazed. The resort looks better than it has in 20 years. Granted the owners paid for it with the assessment, but its nice to see the improvements. We had a great time in P-Town. Hopefully they will renovate the inside next.


I'm sorry if I came off as "condescending" when I'm really just "confused"!

You reported that Festiva booked a long weekend for you at Sandcastle.  Didn't you have to be a Club member in order to do that?  Why, then, do you want your Southcape week back if it was your Southcape week that got you the long weekend at Sandcastle?


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## Time Out

*One More Time*

Sou13,
I will try to keep it simple. I am a Festiva Adventure Club member, I gave up my deed at Southcape plus 3k for points with Festiva. I used those points to reserve a long weekend at the Sandcastle Resort. 

I still own a fixed and deeded week at the Sandcastle Resort.

As I stated earlier, if I could get my 3k and my deed back I would, however, I will not lose any sleep because I can use the points at any of the resorts in the festiva system. I was also informed by the reservation dept because i was booking short notice i only used very few points. Actually I can turn the one deeded week that i used to own at Southcape for almost 3 weeks at Sandcastle with the points from festiva. I can use those points for as little as 2 days (I think) maybe 3 is the minimum stay i dont remember.


----------



## tombo

Time Out said:


> Sou13,
> I will try to keep it simple. I am a Festiva Adventure Club member, I gave up my deed at Southcape plus 3k for points with Festiva. I used those points to reserve a long weekend at the Sandcastle Resort.
> 
> I still own a fixed and deeded week at the Sandcastle Resort.
> 
> As I stated earlier, if I could get my 3k and my deed back I would, however, I will not lose any sleep because I can use the points at any of the resorts in the festiva system. I was also informed by the reservation dept because i was booking short notice i only used very few points. Actually I can turn the one deeded week that i used to own at Southcape for almost 3 weeks at Sandcastle with the points from festiva. I can use those points for as little as 2 days (I think) maybe 3 is the minimum stay i dont remember.



Good luck getting ANY good PRIME week at any Festiva resort using points. Festiva owns mainly off season weeks at most of their resorts. Festiva takes control of resorts by buying the resort's unsold inventory which mainly consists of weeks the developer/resort can't sell. Which weeks do they have trouble selling? The off season weeks of course. Festiva then sells those off-season weeks as points promising all who buy that they can reserve whenever/wherever they want at Festiva resorts as long as they own enough points. The fact is that you can own 1 million Festiva points and it will still be almost impossible to reserve a prime 4th of july week at the beach, because they own few (if any) of those weeks, and a lot of points owners want to reserve them using the magic points they gave up their deeds for.

 I own a prime week at a Festiva resort and they have tricked very few owners into giving their deeded prime weeks up for points. At my resort they do however own the vast majority of off season and shoulder weeks. If 80% of what Festiva owns is off season weeks at their various resorts, only 20% of the points members have a chance to reserve a good week. If you want to travel during non prime seasons you might like points, but if you like to visit the beach during the summer months you will rarely (if ever) be able to get one of those weeks as a Festiva Adventure Club member. This is why when Festiva points come up for sale on e-bay for a dollar they will virtually never get a bid no matter how many points the auction is for. You can pick up 6000 or 7000 festiva points for a dollar anytime you want to on e-bay because no one will bid against you. Watch the following auctions and see if any sell for any price:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Wisconsin-Dells...20596866832?pt=Timeshares&hash=item4aa50ff710

http://cgi.ebay.com/FESTIVA-ADVENTU...80271552296?pt=Timeshares&hash=item5889f36728

http://cgi.ebay.com/Church-Street-I...20595038406?pt=Timeshares&hash=item4aa4f410c6

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-300FESTIVA-AD...90242402114?pt=Timeshares&hash=item5adc427f42

http://cgi.ebay.com/FESTIVA-Adventu...90449869949?pt=Timeshares&hash=item2c57b2647d


If you can get your deed back I would advise you to do so as quickly as possible. Festiva has a problem with a large per cent of members defaulting on their MF's, and that will probably only get worse. They assessed the members who would pay this year to cover Festiva's financial short fall and paid one million out of their own pockets to cover what other members won't pay. How many years will Festiva be able or willing to pay a million that members won't pay? Lack of access to prime inventory, rapidly increasing MF's for members, assessments now and in the future, and even the real possibility of Festiva going broke or filing bankruptcy very soon are all reasons that you need out if you can find a way to get out of the adventure club. I have been dealing with Festiva for about 3 years at my resort and I have talked to zero happy points members at the resort or online. Get your deed back ASAP if you can.


----------



## Sou13

*Thank you, tombo!*

If "Time Out" is really interested in finding out about Festiva, he can join this group:

Description

This group is a forum for all owners of Peppertree Vacation and Travel Club, including those who own a points membership as well as owners of the traditional timeshare week.

Since Peppertree Vacation Club was taken over by Equivest we have seen a sharp decline in membership accompanied by a complete lack of communication. Since being taken over by Cendant/Fairfield Resorts, these problems have escalated, and members have complained of no communication from Fairfield, and excessive maintenance fees.
In 2007, Festiva Resorts acquired Equivest Vacation and Travel Club in its entirety,except for certain resorts which were sold in the deal. Festiva, as of Jan. 2008,has had little contact with Equivest owners, and has at best, indicated a policy which concerns EVTC members.

This forum is an outlet for owners to exchange thoughts, ideas, and experiences. As a community, we share concerns and offer support to one another. 

For all owners, please be aware that we have been notified by Festiva that the Equivest name has been dropped, and that our club is once again known as Peppertree Vacation and Travel Club.

Festiva/Festiva Adventure Club members are welcome to join this group. 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Peppertree-EquivestOwners/

As I previously posted, if "Time Out" is sincerely interested in getting his deed back, I am sincerely interested in helping him.  However, I sincerely doubt that he was ever sincere about wanting his deed back, especially since I doubt that he will be able to get all or any of his 3k back.


----------



## scrjs

*Federal legislative action and presidential veto relevant to Sandcastle and Southcape*

I received information about Federal legislation from a concerned Sandcastle correspondent. The legislation is HR 3808. This was "quietly passed" by Congress and was an effort to protect mortgage companies so that they could proceed with foreclosures even though documents were notarized  under questionable circumstances. Definitely very relevant to Sandcastle and Southcape since most of the quitclaim deeds of owners who transferred deeds to Festiva appear to be illegally notarized. Fortunately President Obama vetoed the legislation. Here is some information about the bill: 

http://www.moneynews.com/Headline/B...hallenges-Passes-Quietly/2010/10/07/id/372879 

I would say that Outfield Marketing copied many of their fraudulent practices from the subprime mortgage companies.  Festiva has a title Department....shouldn't they have noticed that all the quitclaim documents were notarized in TX, NC and FL even though most of the owners live in the Northeast? The head of the title Department Tobias Weas is now a trustee of Southcape.


----------



## Sou13

*"Stealth" bills*

There is a discussion on TUG -- "Massachusetts signs non-judicial foreclosure bill for timeshares! Good news" -- that sees the bill that was signed into law in Massachusetts as "Good news" but that Southcape and Sandcastle owners may see as another example of a "stealth" bill.  I have posted links to the text of the bill and of changes spelled out in the law which may not be all the changes in the final bill which was enacted October 6, 2010.  According to the TUG discussion, if weeks are foreclosed, the Community Association loses all hope of collecting past due maintenance fees and special assessments!  The beneficiaries of this law are developers and investment groups who have the financial means to bid on a large block of weeks and get them for pennies on the dollar, leaving the Community Association with little if any control of the resort.  If I am mistaken about this, please set me straight!


----------



## timeos2

Sou13 said:


> There is a discussion on TUG -- "Massachusetts signs non-judicial foreclosure bill for timeshares! Good news" -- that sees the bill that was signed into law in Massachusetts as "Good news" but that Southcape and Sandcastle owners may see as another example of a "stealth" bill.  I have posted links to the text of the bill and of changes spelled out in the law which may not be all the changes in the final bill which was enacted October 6, 2010.  According to the TUG discussion, if weeks are foreclosed, the Community Association loses all hope of collecting past due maintenance fees and special assessments!  The beneficiaries of this law are developers and investment groups who have the financial means to bid on a large block of weeks and get them for pennies on the dollar, leaving the Community Association with little if any control of the resort.  If I am mistaken about this, please set me straight!



The bill was designed to reduced the costs of foreclosures for Associations by reducing the costly process required to accomplish it.  In ANY foreclosure all past due fees/special assessments are lost. But the owner isn't paying anyway so simply having it sit unpaid does not benefit the Association especially if it costs them thousands & a year or more to foreclose & get title.

This way they can act once it is proven the owner will never pay and get the week back & into the hands of a paying owner going forward. The Association would get the title so they have control over who & for what it gets sold.


----------



## Carolinian

timeos2 said:


> The bill was designed to reduced the costs of foreclosures for Associations by reducing the costly process required to accomplish it.  In ANY foreclosure all past due fees/special assessments are lost. But the owner isn't paying anyway so simply having it sit unpaid does not benefit the Association especially if it costs them thousands & a year or more to foreclose & get title.
> 
> This way they can act once it is proven the owner will never pay and get the week back & into the hands of a paying owner going forward. The Association would get the title so they have control over who & for what it gets sold.



I think the concern is that the bill will allow the HOA, controlled by a developer, to offer the weeks only in large blocks, thus cutting out individual buyers and meaning that the developer will likely be the only bidder.  If this is, in fact, in the bill, it is so evil that it makes the whole bill bad.  I have not read the bill to know if this is a valid concern, but it is the concern being raised, and I do hope it is NOT in the bill.


----------



## timeos2

Carolinian said:


> I think the concern is that the bill will allow the HOA, controlled by a developer, to offer the weeks only in large blocks, thus cutting out individual buyers and meaning that the developer will likely be the only bidder.  If this is, in fact, in the bill, it is so evil that it makes the whole bill bad.  I have not read the bill to know if this is a valid concern, but it is the concern being raised, and I do hope it is NOT in the bill.



The bill leaves the sale of the recovered weeks to the control of the Association.  If the Association is under Developer control then it is one more reason to change that.  There was no attempt, nor should there be, to differentiate between Owner & Developer controlled Associations. That is way beyond the scope of this bill. It was designed strictly to reduce the cost burden on Associations to foreclose on delinquent weeks.  It does that and is a positive for well run Associations.  If the Association has other issues, such as a contentious Developer control, that is a separate issue and needs to be addressed by the owners not this type of law.


----------



## Carolinian

timeos2 said:


> The bill leaves the sale of the recovered weeks to the control of the Association.  If the Association is under Developer control then it is one more reason to change that.  There was no attempt, nor should there be, to differentiate between Owner & Developer controlled Associations. That is way beyond the scope of this bill. It was designed strictly to reduce the cost burden on Associations to foreclose on delinquent weeks.  It does that and is a positive for well run Associations.  If the Association has other issues, such as a contentious Developer control, that is a separate issue and needs to be addressed by the owners not this type of law.



Resorts such as Southcape have a highly abusive developer, who would undoubtedly use this to keep control.  The bill should not differentiate between developer and member controlled associations, but it absolutely should prevent developer abuse by requiring any weeks sold to be offered individually NOT as a block.  Failure to do this would make this an absolutely awful bill.


----------



## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> There is a discussion on TUG -- "Massachusetts signs non-judicial foreclosure bill for timeshares! Good news" -- that sees the bill that was signed into law in Massachusetts as "Good news" but that Southcape and Sandcastle owners may see as another example of a "stealth" bill.  I have posted links to the text of the bill and of changes spelled out in the law which may not be all the changes in the final bill which was enacted October 6, 2010.  According to the TUG discussion, if weeks are foreclosed, the Community Association loses all hope of collecting past due maintenance fees and special assessments!  The beneficiaries of this law are developers and investment groups who have the financial means to bid on a large block of weeks and get them for pennies on the dollar, leaving the Community Association with little if any control of the resort.  If I am mistaken about this, please set me straight!


 I tried the link to the law as passed and the first time I couldn't get into it but when I went back to my post on the original "Massachusetts signs non-judicial foreclosure bill for timeshares! Good news" I was able to get into it.  The law was amended before being passed and but seems to be pretty much the same as the explanatory version I *tried* to provide above.

Try this link to view the changes in the original bill:  http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/41573436/1907943696/name/HOUSE


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## timeos2

*Owners - VOTE and watch your Board - you need to be active or bad guys will take over*



Carolinian said:


> Resorts such as Southcape have a highly abusive developer, who would undoubtedly use this to keep control.  The bill should not differentiate between developer and member controlled associations, but it absolutely should prevent developer abuse by requiring any weeks sold to be offered individually NOT as a block.  Failure to do this would make this an absolutely awful bill.



I understand what you are saying & I agree that it isn't a good idea to give developers any new ways to take control. However I disagree that wording a law that is written to ease the cost of foreclosure for Associations to include how the recovered weeks can be resold - or especially to say they cannot be sold in blocks - is making far too many steps into controlling how an Association / Board can operate.  It is way out of the scope of this type of law.  

Unfortunately it is up to the owners to ride herd on the management / developers.  Asking the State to legislate every action isn't going to happen nor should it.  It was hard enough getting this needed tool passed - cluttering it up with other items would have guaranteed defeat.


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## Carolinian

timeos2 said:


> I understand what you are saying & I agree that it isn't a good idea to give developers any new ways to take control. However I disagree that wording a law that is written to ease the cost of foreclosure for Associations to include how the recovered weeks can be resold - or especially to say they cannot be sold in blocks - is making far too many steps into controlling how an Association / Board can operate.  It is way out of the scope of this type of law.
> 
> Unfortunately it is up to the owners to ride herd on the management / developers.  Asking the State to legislate every action isn't going to happen nor should it.  It was hard enough getting this needed tool passed - cluttering it up with other items would have guaranteed defeat.



The problem is that allowed bulk sales of foreclosed weeks means fewer potential bidders, not a good thing for HOA's, and a huge amount of leverage for the bad guys who are in control like NEVS at South Cape to keep control. That FAR outweighs the minor advantage of a little bit more flexibility in sales.  This is made worse by entities like NEVS which claim that they do not have to pay m/f's on ''developer weeks'' and when they get title to previously owned weeks, what do you realistically think they will try to designate them as?  Of course, I saw how that argue played out at Bodie Island Beach Club. The NC Real Estate Commission got involved, told the developer he DID have to pay m/f's on those weeks, made the developer resign from managing the resort, compelled the developer to reimburse the HOA for past m/f's, and revoked the developer's real estate license.  One can only hope that the Massachusetts Real Estate Commission will get involved in straightening things out at South Cape.

I am afraid this poorly conceived part of the law may just lock the bad guys in power too many places, and give less chance for the homeowners to achieve democratic control.  That alone makes this law horrible.


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## Time Out

*Has anyone read the bill?*

Are you kidding? It appears no one who has posted here has read the bill or knows what the bill represents.


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## Sou13

*Wrong, wrong, wrong!*

I beg your pardon?  Not only have I read the bill, I've even researched and posted the parts being changed!

If Clifford Hagberg lobbied for *and possibly even introduced* this bill, it doesn't bode well for Southcape and Sandcastle owners.


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## NEVMSLLC

Sou13 said:


> I beg your pardon?  Not only have I read the bill, I've even researched and posted the parts being changed!
> 
> If Clifford Hagberg lobbied for *and possibly even introduced* this bill, it doesn't bode well for Southcape and Sandcastle owners.



OK, Sou13, enough is enough.  I have no legislators "in my pocket", nor did I "pay" any of them to pass this bill.  Those accusations are completely ludicrous and assume I am far more powerful that I really am!  Come on!

I had absolutely nothing to do with the introduction or the passage of this bill.  This bill was sponsored by ARDA and is similar to bills that have been passed in many other states.

I am amused by the completely erroneous interpretations of the bill by all of the non-lawyers here on TUG.  Quite frankly, it is one of the best things that has happened for homeowner's associations in recent years.  It is the owner's association that is owed the money on delinquent maintenance fees.  It is the owner's association that controls the forfeiture process.  It is the owner's association that has the opportunity to collect back maintenance fees.  It is the association that acquires title to the forfeited weeks.  It is the association that can then sell those weeks to generate new maintenance fee paying owners.

You just can't seem to accept the fact that, for homeowner's associations, it's all good.  

Cliff


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## Sou13

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=204 
_MA House Bill 4496

MA legislators are making corrections in MGL 183B - specifically addressing defaults on maintenance and assessment fees, making the process easier to foreclose on those delinquent accounts.

While this bill is beneficial in making it easier for those in financial straits to forfeit their unit for resale, it also gives developers the opportunity to buy and or sell large blocks of units by auction in a resulting takeover from the existing Owner's Association.

At Sandcastle in Provincetown, the current management has stated at the annual meeting that our units recouped via this new procedure or small claims court, will be offered 'in bulk' at auction - so members of the existing owners association will NOT be able to buy additional units unless purchased in '100 unit' blocks - therefore essentially allowing for developers like Festiva in our case, to overtake the units and gain majority control. 

Also, a bulk sale or auction sale will not necessarily bring the owners association realistic sums of money for prime weeks. Fifty or 100 units sold at in bulk $1000 a piece, prevents most individuals from purchase and allows prime weeks to be sold at significant bargain prices, hurting owners associations financially. 

Every MA timeshare owner needs to write to their representative requesting that House Bill 4496 be changed to allow your resort OWNERS ASSOCIATION to have the final say on how reclaimed units are sold and or handled. If you don’t live in MA but own a timeshare in MA, write to the representative in the district where your timeshare is located as you are a taxpayer there.

If you live in MA and own timeshare property in MA, write to both your local representative and the rep in your timeshare district.

http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/hous...df/ht04496.pdf_ 



When I launched the discussion "Contact the Speaker of the Massachusetts House" I didn't see anything wrong with it, either, but was soon corrected by the Sandcastle owners who attended their annual meeting!

Upon revisiting that discussion I realized why I had been under the impression that "NEVMSLLC" may have had something to do with its introduction and passage.  The reason I posted what I did was that I have been contacted by one of the new trustees at Southcape who has been reading my TUG posts and wanted to know what I see wrong with this bill.  In the course of the conversation he left me with the impression that Festiva is under the impression the "NEVMSLLC" had introduced and lobbied for the passage of this bill.

So, "NEVMSLLC", if you had nothing to do with it, why don't you set Festiva straight?  You and your "reputation" seem to have had a lot to do with Festiva's interest in taking over Southcape Resort according to the trustee who contacted me yesterday!


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## Sou13

*Southcape legal documents*

  After more than a year of expressing frustration over not being able to view the documents at  Barnstable Capeview Internet Access I have finally learned that I had the capability of viewing them all along!  

What I finally learned is that I have to choose my viewing preferences before attempting to view documents.  Here at the Westerly Public Library today I was prompted to accept Java and was finally able to view my own deed on a public computer!

The lab tech assistant at the computer lab at the community college showed me how to choose my preferences at the bottom of the Main Menu and told me that most public computers have the Java viewing applet installed.

Now that I'm finally able to view the documents I will post the Book/Page for all important legal documents here on TUG.  If anyone is still unable to view these documents, please email me!


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## scrjs

*Some Potential Problems with New Foreclosure Proceedings*

My problem with the new foreclosure proceedings is that it puts owners at the mercy of the developer/ managers who can demand any special assessment fee they want and threaten foreclosure if they don't get it. The trustees of Sandcastle assessed a $2.9M special assessment and then  completely ignored the deed when sending out his special assessment bills. First, many owners do not trust the good intentions of the trustees in making the $2.9M assessment given that their first act as trustees was to shake down owners for possibly $1M and pocket the profits in the Festiva sales scam. Second many owners were overcharged by hundreds of dollars because of the way the bill was calculated. Owners who disputed the bill were completely ignored and have never been offered any evidence from the deed or law that the calculation of the special assessment was legal. Even though sme owners paid what they owed according to the deed, they have recently received bills for the balance, late fees in the $100s, and a copy of the new forclosure legislation which appears to be a threat to foreclose. Making it easier for dishonest managers to foreclose on units was probably not the intention of the legislators, but it is an unintended  consequence.


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## e.bram

With most(if not all) HOAs not willing to take back deeds(at no cost) from TS owners, what benefit will this law provide the HOAs.


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## scrjs

The resorts will not take back deeds if they feel that you will continue to pay your bills, but if they have given up ever getting money from you, they may want to try to get the unit turned over to someone who is more willing to pay their annual fees. That is clearly to the benefit of all owners, but I wrote to my legislators saying that before they passed the law, they should add more protection from arbitrary special assessment bills sent out without sufficient explanation about costs, no information about the bidding process, no access to financial records, etc. If the management is spending my money, I want to know where it is going.


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## TheB

*Any info on SouthCape Resort*

New owners to the SouthCape Resort and we are looking for an info on anyone who has stayed there recently. We have a week in November 2010 so anyone thats been there over the summer who has any info on the new owners and management?


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## Sou13

*Reply to TheB*

This discussion took off when New England Vacation Services took over Southcape Resort in 2008 and affiliated us with the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club.  It takes you through all the agonies of Southcape owners who are being "coerced" into signing over their deeded weeks to "points" in the Festiva Resorts Adventure Club.  In 2009 the conversion price was $3185, but now that NEVS has sold us out to the Festiva Development Group the price has gone up.  There are many discussions here on TUG, the most relevant of which, in addition to this one, is "Festiva takes over resort" in the U.S. Eastern forum (you are already in it if you are reading this post).

The "Southcape Archives" link in my signature is the link to the southcapeowners Yahoogroup, where all the links are public and you can catch up with the owners who are on my elist.  Be glad you found us!


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## Sou13

*Owner update*

I'm back from the last split week I'm supposed to be able to spend at Southcape.  I suggest "supposed to be able" because my reading of the Master Deed suggest that float week owners should be able to split their weeks.  However, since Festiva has taken over as the management company, only Festiva Adventure Club members get to split their weeks.  Yet Festiva pays no more in maintenance fees to Southcape than weeks owners do!

Now that Festiva has taken over as the "developer" and the management company, here are some of the changes I've noticed:

Why Festiva toilet paper?  Are we saving money by buying in bulk from Festiva?  I could make some unsavory comments about what Club members can do with their contracts but Festiva seems to have supplied it for all guests instead.

Why no more shampoo and conditioner?  Now that Festiva Club members have to fly to New England to use their points, isn't it logical to spare them from having to pack travel size shampoos in their carry-on bags?

What became of the alarm clocks?  My unit didn't have even one, and no way to program the TV to wake me up.  When I realized that I had forgotten to bring my cell phone charger, I could only hope that I'd wake up in time to check out by 10 a.m.

I checked out the new Mashpee Public Library but couldn't sign up for the Internet without paying for a guest pass, and since I don't own a laptop I opted to wait until today to post my comments.

Overall I could see no benefit to me as a deeded float week owner from the Festiva takeover of Southcape.  Even the new TV in the clubhouse isn't used for any purpose other than promoting surrendering your deeded weeks to the Club.  I met one former owner who did that and has opted to continue spending the same week that she already owned at Southcape.  She paid New England Vacation Services/Outfield Marketing $3185 for the privilege of having a fireplace instead of a jacuzzi, paid Festiva more in Club fees than she would have paid for maintenace fees at Southcape, and now she has to pay the $400 special assessment to Festiva instead of to Southcape!  Does that look like a win/win situation to anyone?  *ANYONE?*


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## Sou13

*2011 maintenance fee bills?*

Has anyone received the MF billing for 2011?  Could mine have been lost in the mail?


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## Russ45

Sou13 said:


> Has anyone received the MF billing for 2011?  Could mine have been lost in the mail?



I didn't get mine either  so I called them.  It's due by January 1 with a 30 day grace period I was told.  I paid mine over the phone with a credit card and they emailed me a receipt.


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## Sou13

Did you call *Southcape* or *Festiva*?


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## Russ45

Sou13 said:


> Did you call *Southcape* or *Festiva*?



Festiva, go to their website and call owner services.  They may not answer but they did call back same day.


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## scrjs

*Getting out of Festiva contract*

After the WBZ expose, Festiva promised to return deeds to any former Sandcastle owners who felt they transferred deeds under pressure. Of course, now that the spotlight isn't on them anymore, they are again trying to fleece their members. I have learned that in order to get out of the FAC contract, Festiva is demanding that members pay the maintenance fee for next year as well as a fee of about $300 to cancel the contract. This is despite the illegal sales tactics and the fact that deeds were not transferred legally. So former owners lose the $3000 they paid in fees to transfer and now have to pay maintenance and cancellation fees on top of that. No doubt if they get their deeds back they will get a bill from Sandcastle. I hope that anyone approached with this deal will refuse to pay.


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## Sou13

*2011 maintenance fee billing*

The 2011 maintenance fee billing that was scheduled to go out in November finally arrived the week before Christmas.  What a Christmas present:whoopie:!

According to the accompanying info, Southcape owners are supposed to be able to pay online by credit card, and need to register to do so.  However, after having my registration confirmed, I am unable to login and keep getting the message "User Name And/Or Password Is Invalid. Please Try Again."

I've heard from another owner who tried for three days, and nothing worked!

I tried to reply to his message and am finding that today my email doesn't work, either!

A Festiva member who paid online has reported that there is no fee for paying by credit card, if only you can login!

The only consolation is that we are being given until March 31 to pay, so let's hope the problems at www.festiva.travel and www.yahoo.com get resolved by then.


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## engelesq

*Warning to the Remaining SouthCape Week OWNERS*

It makes zero cents (but lots of dollars for Festiva, not for you) to pay Festiva (plus give them the deed to your SouthCape week) for the dubious privilege of turning your deeded week at SouthCape into Festiva points, points that MIGHT be useable at one of the very few, very uninterestingly located other Festiva resorts WHEN YOU IN FACT WANT TO GO THERE.

At SouthCape Festiva purchased primarily off-season weeks, weeks no one else wanted.  No doubt the weeks they are foreclosing on are also primarily off-season weeks; someone with a prime week would not let Festive foreclose to avoid paying $525.  Thus what they have to offer their members who want to use Festiva points to visit SouthCape is primarily weeks when no one else wants to be there.

In all likelihood it's the same at the rest of the Festiva resorts.

You know what you have. You know that you can arrange to trade it for any of very many time share weeks, often in places that are far better maintained, and at least as well located, as SouthCape is, via one of the time share trading services, for a fairly nominal cost, and, after the trade, you still own your week at SouthCape for years to come (the "Master Deed" eventually runs out, but "eventually" has not arrived yet).

If you are thinking of paying Festiva for the right to give them your money plus your deed in exchange for Festiva points, no matter how many, think again.


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## Sou13

*Welcome, engelesq!*

Welcome, *engelesq*, and thank you for your post!

By keeping this discussion alive you help other Southcape owners find us.  Here's an example:

*Hello,
My husband purchased a week at SouthCape resort without my knowledge (as a surprise) well I started researching the place and came up with this forum and was rather interested in your posts and any info you can give us to help us with this. We are here this week for our assigned week (November 13-20) well today Monday the 15th my husband went for what he was told was a mandatory owners meeting. He returned 5 minutes later they would not meet with him without me they claim they need me there. He explained we have a 14 month old and I couldnt go and they insist I be there so he needs to re-schedule this suppossed meeting. Before we go what should we be on the look out for and what kind of info do you have for us and what should we be on the lookout for? I know its a scam and that they are going to try to bully us into buying more weeks. Any help you can give or any documents you can send me would be very helpful.*

So now Festiva's marketing company is scheduling appointments for *"mandatory owners meetings"!  *I have learned from an owner who fell into the Festiva trap that they went to the meeting believing that other owners would be there with them, only to find out that it was a sales promotional meeting.  Had they found us before attending that meeting they would still be Southcape interval owners!


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## engelesq

*One Can Now Pay SouthCape Maintenance Fees Online*

After weeks of the website not working properly, and calls to the Festiva number (on the bill itself!) going unanswered, the website finally works, and I was able to pay my 2011 maintenance fee online, via my credit card, with no (known) extra fee for doing so, and with the usual airline miles bonus my credit card gives me (I did not pay the trip insurance fee, which is optional--and the bill makes that clear).

Finally, something good!

People should not get the idea that SouthCape is not a very good place at which to own a deeded week, rent a week or spend a week in some other manner (such as via a trade or with Festiva points).  It is very nice for what it is.  It's not a Marriott or other super-luxury resort, but the units are large.  The place is both quiet and very conveniently located (unless you want to be ON a beach).  It's quite attractive.  If you are into tennis there is a lot of available, no-extra-charge outdoor court time available, and indoor courts can be reserved.  There are indoor and outdoor pools, and they are almost never crowded.  It's a heck of a lot cheaper than a week at a Cape Cod hotel or motel with even remotely similar facilities--if you are an owner, you get the equivalent of an entire, good-sized, two-bedroom, two-bath condo unit, fully furnished, with nice on-site facilities, for under $600 for an entire week, even in prime season--where can you get a better deal on Cape Cod?!


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## Sou13

I, too, am finally able to log in to the website, after contacting ownerservices@festiva.travel explaining my problem.  It took a few days longer for mine to get corrected but at least I didn't have to wait by the telephone to talk to a human being.  If I had wanted to do that why would I need to register to pay online?

Thanks, *engelesq*, for putting in good words for Southcape Resort, and for making the case for hanging on to your deeded weeks.  So long as you own a week you can rent it privately and post your rental on a variety of websites.  You can also exchange through other exchange networks than II, the only exchange company available to FAC members.  If you own Condo II week you will no longer be able to exchange through RCI if you convert your weeks to FAC points.


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## scrjs

*If you transferred your Southcape or Sandcastle deed please read this*

If you bought Festiva points and relinquished your Sandcastle or Southcape deed, in almost every case your quitclaim deed was illegally notarized at the Outfield Marketing office in Texas and then registered with the Barnstable County Registry of Deeds. The only job of a notary is to witness signatures to ensure that everything is on the up and up. The notaries knew they were violating a trust and the law by notarizing signatures (about 700 of them!) without the signer being present. 

Be aware that some people did sign quitclaim deeds with the knowledge that they would be notarized somewhere else. This is still illegal and demonstrates that the salesmen knew that if they gave people time to think, they probably would lose the sale.

However there are other people who were unaware that their deed was transferred to Festiva. We believe that Outfield Marketing began cutting even more corners, didn't clearly inform people about the process and may even have forged or affixed signatures in some way to the quitclaim deeds.

Whatever category you fit into, the process was not legal.

Please consider filing a complaint with the TX Secretary of State who oversees notaries there.

The form can be obtained on line:

http://www.texasnotary.com/docs/complaint.pdf

To get the name of the notary, you need to look at the last page of the deed. You can look up the deed by going to www.barnstabledeeds.org. Follow the instructions for searching records and enter your name as grantor. The deed will have been transferred to Intercity Escrow (grantee.) This will give you the book and page reference. You can view the deed online if you  download free software from the site. 

You can also obtain a copy of the deed by sending $3.00 together with the book and page reference of the deed you are looking for to P.O. Box 368, Barnstable, MA 02630.


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## Sou13

You need to post this info to the Sandcastle discussions as well, for those owners who have yet to find them on TUG.


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## Sou13

*Deed discrepancies*

I've been making up a spreadsheet of all the Southcape owners who converted to Festiva and am finding errors in the recorded deeds.  One deed has been erroneously registered 4 times, all four times by a notary public in Texas!  Instead of registering Unit 27 Week 48, the deed has been registered as Unit 48 Week 27!  This is a BIG ONE because it converts a winter week into a 4th of July week!


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## Sou13

*Yes, it is a BIG mistake!*



Sou13 said:


> I've been making up a spreadsheet of all the Southcape owners who converted to Festiva and am finding errors in the recorded deeds.  One deed has been erroneously registered 4 times, all four times by a notary public in Texas!  Instead of registering Unit 27 Week 48, the deed has been registered as Unit 48 Week 27!  This is a BIG ONE because it converts a winter week into a 4th of July week!


I contacted the owner who was incorrectly converted to the 4th of July week and learned that the owner was surprised to be able to spend a summer week at Southcape but not pleased about having to pay $828 MF to Festiva as well as the $400 special assessment that the Outfield Marketing rep had told them they'd be avoiding having to pay to Southcape.

So who are the winners and losers here?  Who is the deeded owner of Unit 48 Week 27 who was unable to stay in his deeded unit?  How did the resort handle this when there were two parties expecting to stay in the same unit?


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## Sou13

*Owners now deeding weeks back to Southcape*

While going through records at the Barnstable Registry of Deeds I discovered that *24** owners have *deeded their weeks back to the resort in 2011*!  Can anyone explain this?  Is the resort accepting deedbacks, and if so, why?

Or is it possible to foreclose on delinquent weeks under the new Massachusetts law, and if so, how could it have been done so quickly?

More importantly, what does the resort intend to do with these weeks?


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## Sou13

*Mystery solved*

Received today from Kevin Blocker, the Festiva Trustee who painted such a rosy picture at our Community Association meeting in May 2010:

*These weeks were accepted back into the HOA through a settlement offer issued by Mr. Hagberg before our involvement.  He approached several owners who were severely delinquent in their maintenance fees and were unwilling or unable to pay.  Other associations' HOA boards have done this recently through what is called a deed in lieu process.  The goal is to regain control of weeks that are owned by members, but have almost no chance of being brought current.  The HOA's feel it is better to regain control of the deed and be in a position to control what happens to it next.  They can then rent it or sell it.  Something they cannot do if the deed is still in the name of the delinquent owner.  In most cases, most or all of the past due fees are waived in exchange for the deed.  This process is financially preferred over foreclosure as foreclosure is expensive, and the end result is the same. 

These deeds are now in the name of the HOA at Southcape.  Southcape employees are attempting to rent the weeks for the profit of the HOA which will have a positive influence on future operating budgets.  The Trustees will discuss a suitable offering for any owners who wish to own additional weeks.  Our goal is to replace these delinquent owners with ones who will pay their maintenance fees going forward.

There are 5 or 6 additional deeds that will be deeded to the Festiva Adventure Club's trustee.   These weeks represent owners that have either converted to the Club product, or have approached the Club wishing to transfer their ownership.  All deeds accepted in this manner were paid up and current in their obligations to Southcape.  The maintenance fee burden for these deeds now belongs to the Club and they are not "developer weeks."​*See also the latest posts to Massachusetts signs non-judicial foreclosure bill for timeshares! Good news


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## Sou13

*Annual meeting?*

Has anyone been contacted about the annual meeting?

Sometime in January I received a call from either Southcape Resort or Festiva, advising me to be expecting a call about the owners' "meetings" sometime in the future.  At the time I reasoned that it might be less expensive to call the owners than to mail them, but that would mean that the resort or Festiva has all of the owners' telephone numbers.  Since there was no mention of the annual meeting in the meeting minutes or any of the mailings from Festiva, it is now necessary for either the resort or Festiva to notify the owners that a meeting is supposed to be taking place.  This notice is supposed to be mailed out no less than 21 days prior to the meeting, which should be soon if the meeting is supposed to be taking place May 14.

Has anyone contacted the resort or the trustees to inquire about the date of  the meeting?


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## Sou13

*Annual meeting update*

An owner who called the resort to inquire about the meeting was told that it is scheduled for May 14 and that notices will be mailed.  I've received no notice so far, and in two days it will be 21 days before the meeting.

Has anyone received a notice?  If so, who sent it?


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## engelesq

*Annual Meeting*

No notice received so far.


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## engelesq

*Expect Nothing*

If you take a look at the online journal Festiva just sent us, at the section that deals with resort improvements, you will notice that Southcape is not even mentioned.  Presumably that means that there have been none.

If anyone knows of anything Festiva has done FOR us, as opposed to TO us, let's hear about it.  I'd love to be able to support them, but that means that they also must support us.


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## Russ45

engelesq said:


> No notice received so far.



Received my notice for the May 14th meeting about a week ago in the mail.


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## Russ45

*meeting*



Russ45 said:


> Received my notice for the May 14th meeting about a week ago in the mail.



i won't be able to make the May 14 meeting but would be interested to know if anything noteworthy is discussed.


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## Sou13

*Southcape Resort & Club Annual Owners Meeting*

It looks as though it's up to me or bhound54 to fill you in because we're the only TUG guests* who were at the meeting to my knowledge.

There were about the same # of owners at the 2011 meeting as there were in 2010, but not the same owners.  By "owners" I also mean the new "developers" who bought the 559 NEVS weeks.  They were represented by Kevin Blocker and Jason Buchanan.  Mr. Blocker convened the meeting and Mr. Buchanan mostly observed.

I was unable to take notes because I was monitoring the door as latecomers arrived, directing them to the agenda packets and handing them what I had brought to pass out.  This year I wanted them to have copies of the BY-LAWS and what I had found at https://72.8.52.132/ALIS/WW400R.PGM of the history of Trustees which I posted at http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/41573436/1696252388/name/SOUTHCAPE+TRUSTEES.pdf.  The reason I wanted owners to have copies of their rights according to the BY-LAWS was that I knew that Mr. Blocker was going to tell us why Festiva believes that we have NO RIGHT to representation on the board of directors.  I also handed out a list of the weeks that Festiva bought (or mortgaged) from NEVS.

The owners who were concerned enough about the future of their timeshares at Southcape Resort have signed up for email updates and I've been busy this week adding them to the Yahoogroup and updating my contacts.  If you are a Southcape Resort interval owner who has not yet contacted me or checked out our Yahoogroup, please do so before we lose all our rights as interval owners.  Festiva currently controls more than 860 weeks and continues to go after more control.  The MF-paying membership in the Community Association has decreased to less than 1600 (did I hear 1565?) and Festiva is neither selling any of the 559 weeks purchased (or mortgaged?) from NEVS nor paying MF on those weeks.  The 1565 MF-paying owners includes 300 FAC members whose voting rights are assumed by Festiva.  This means that there are now only 1200 interval owners who *should* but do not  have the right to elect at least two Trustees to the board.

I have published links to the minutes of the 1984 meeting when the owners elected two owners to the expanded board.  According to the BY-LAWS and Master Deed, there should still be 5 Trustees, and Festiva does *not* have the right to occupy three of the five seats on the board according to the original Master Deed.

*We have learned that NEVMSLLC is still exercising control of the foreclosures.  There was a notice in the Mashpee Enterprise that an auction of 330 foreclosed weeks will be held June 10.  I have yet to see a copy of this notice but will publish details as soon as I get them.* 


*The other TUG guest at the meeting doesn't like to post comments to this discussion.


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## Stevenh1

Ahh timeshare sales people...The only group of people who are able to make the used car industry look reputable:hysterical:


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## scrjs

*Auction of Foresclosed Southcape Units*

Sou 13 asked me to post the following:

There is a notice in the Mashpee Enterprise today (5/23/2011) regarding the public auction of Southcape Resort Condominium 2 Units pursuant to 
MGL 183B, section 29D. (Thought to include 330 foreclosed units.)

Auction will be held at Souhcape Resort, Rm. 28, Mashpee at 10:00AM,  June 10.

Terms of sale: certified check, other terms to be announced at the sale.

For further information contact Denise Daly at NEVS, 774-994-0450 or email NEVSLLC@gmail.com


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## Sou13

Thank you, scrjs!

Please see my post at http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1113096#post1113096 and check back tomorrow for further details.


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## Sou13

*Email me for a map*

In addition to the link to the Units/Weeks and Weeks/Units published in my previous post I have a map of the resort showing what kind of Unit each is and where.  I've been unable to successfully publish this, though, so if you want a copy to go with the list you'll need to email me for it.

When I copied the notice into a spreadsheet I counted more than 330 weeks, more like 343, but some of them might have been settled and removed from the list.  My list is of the weeks that were published in the May 6 Mashpee Enterprise.


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## Sou13

*Another auction?*

Found on craigslist:

$1 / 2br - Timeshare Foreclosure Auction (Mashpee Ma/Cape Cod )

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2011-06-11, 1:50PM EDT
Reply to: hous-phjty-2434462958@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?] 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Spacious and private two bedroom timeshare cottages available thru public foreclosure auction. Resort is located in beautiful Mashpee just two miles from South Cape Beach and Mashpee Commons. All cottages sleep 6 with 2 seperate bedrooms and pull out sofabed, two full baths (master with whirlpool tub), fully equipped kitchen, large living room area, den, central AC and private deck/patio with charcoal grill. Resort offers indoor pool, tennis court, half basketball court, putting green, shuffleboard, childrens play area. Resort is currently renovating all units which includes the addition of washer/dryers. Resort is auctioning off 24 red weeks, many of which are PRIME SUMMER! BIDS CAN START AS LOW AS $1.00!!! Auction will be held on site. Interested parties please email for more exact location, day/time and additional information.

PostingID: 2434462958


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## Sou13

*Cape Cod Holiday Estates*

I emailed the above for info about the upcoming auction.  It is to be held at Cape Cod Holiday Estates on Saturday, July 16 at 10 a.m.  There are 26 weeks to be auctioned, starting bids to be announced at the auction.

No mention of certified checks required in order to attend.


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## Sou13

*2011 owners' meeting minutes*

The minutes of the May 2011 owners' meeting arrived in my mailbox yesterday.  I knew that I had to request them, which is why I received a copy.

If you are a Southcape Resort interval owner who has yet to request a copy, call *508-477-4700* to request not only a copy of the minutes but a copy of the 2010 financial report as well.  I have posted prior years' reports here on TUG, and the link to the Southcape Archives in my signature below will direct you to some of those posts.  I am no longer posting to TUG now that we have our own publicly-accessible links as one of the many benefits of forming a southcapeowners Yahoogroup.


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## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> The minutes of the May 2011 owners' meeting arrived in my mailbox yesterday.  I knew that I had to request them, which is why I received a copy.
> 
> If you are a Southcape Resort interval owner who has yet to request a copy, call *508-477-4700* to request not only a copy of the minutes but a copy of the 2010 financial report as well.  I have posted prior years' reports here on TUG, and the link to the Southcape Archives in my signature below will direct you to some of those posts.  I am no longer posting to TUG now that we have our own publicly-accessible links as one of the many benefits of forming a southcapeowners Yahoogroup.



"_I am no longer posting to TUG now that we have our own publicly-accessible links as one of the many benefits of forming a southcapeowners Yahoogroup_" should have read "I am no longer posting *minutes* to TUG now that we have our own publicly-accessible links as one of the many benefits of forming a southcapeowners Yahoogroup" !


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## Sou13

*Problems with links to TUG*



Sou13 said:


> "_I am no longer posting to TUG now that we have our own publicly-accessible links as one of the many benefits of forming a southcapeowners Yahoogroup_" should have read "I am no longer posting *minutes* to TUG now that we have our own publicly-accessible links as one of the many benefits of forming a southcapeowners Yahoogroup" !



It's just as well that I'm no longer posting the minutes on TUG in order to create links for the Southcape Archives.  Today I'm getting the following message when clicking on the TUG links:

Unable to add cookies, header already sent.
File: /home/tugbbsc/public_html/forums/includes/cron/session.php
Line: 31

Let's hope this problem can be resolved by the TUG webmaster so that I don't have to redo all the work I've put into making these archives available to the public.

BTW the links work when I'm logged in, but that doesn't help the general public who haven't registered.


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## Sou13

*Merry Christmas from Festiva*

Instead of a greeting card, my mailbox yesterday contained a plain, 2-window envelope with the notification "Invoice Enclosed" between the windows.  It was mailed presorted first class, origin unknown.  The origin showing in the window was "Festiva Management Group" on the top line and "Southcape Resort" on the second line, which alerted me to the importance of this invoice, which of course was my 2012 maintenance fee bill, mailed Dec. 9, 2011 and due by or before Jan. 1, 2012!  Yesterday was Dec. 15, giving me just two weeks to come up with my MF for 2012.

The contents of this mailing contained, instead of an explanation for the increase over 2011 or any news whatsoever about what's been going on at Southcape, a blank return envelope (First class postage required) and two inserts promoting services of Festiva Travel Services, and a copy of the 2012 Southcape Budget.

I'm posting this today in order to alert any Southcape Resort interval owners who are looking for a place to air their grievances that we now have a Yahoogroup open to anyone who owns or has owned a timeshare at Southcape Resort.  I'm posting a link to the 2010 Financial Reports that were handed out at the May 2011 owners meeting: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/41573436/711388749/name/May_2011_Owners_Meeting.docx

If you are unable to open the link, please email me if you are a registered TUG user or click on the link to the Southcape Archives in my signature below.

Happy Holidays!


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## Sou13

*Back from a week at Southcape*

Returning from a relaxing week at Southcape, I'm happy to report that it was time well spent.  The accommodations were clean and well maintained, the bed was comfortable (Sealy Posturepedic Dynasty CSS Plush mattress and box spring), the staff was friendly and professional, the pool was warm and inviting, and everyone seemed to be having a good time.

If you ever have the option of requesting Unit 28, you may appreciate my recommendation.  It's a loft unit (sleeps 8), close to the clubhouse, with fireplace and washer/dryer in the unit.

Here's the link to the website:  http://southcaperesort.com/


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## e.bram

How many units were occupied?


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## Sou13

I didn't get an accurate count but would guess that 1/3 to 1/2 of the units were occupied.


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## engelesq

*It's Winter, Isn't It?*

It's not exactly prime season to be at the Cape, so 1/3 to 1/2 is not surprisingly few occupied units.


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## Sou13

*Has anyone heard anything about the advisory group?*

When I was at Southcape in February, Rosaleen told me that an advisory group had been selected and that we should be getting a letter soon.  More than a month has gone by and I've had nothing from Southcape or Festive in my mailbox.  Has anyone heard anything?  What's going on?


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## engelesq

*What Letter?*

Not a word.


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## Sou13

*One week remaining*



engelesq said:


> Not a word.



According to my calendar, if ithe annual meeting is supposed to be the Saturday *AFTER* Mother's Day, there's still one remaining week to be looking for a letter from either Southcape or Festiva (see the link to the Southcape Master Deed in my signature below).

But since the Master Deed for Condo I has never been amended, who knows when the meeting is supposed to take place?


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## Sou13

*Reply from rcassidy*

In reply to my email query, rcassidy@festiva.travel informed me that the letter went out 4/16 and the meeting is to be held 5/19.  Thank you!


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## Sou13

*Stop & Shop gas rewards points*

On the way to the annual owners meeting I was happy to see that what had been "Johnny's Tune & Lube" on Route 28 North (between the Mashpee rotary and Southcape Resort) is now Stop & Shop gasoline.  How convenient for those of us who drive to Southcape!


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## Sou13

*2012 owners meeting minutes*

If you are a Southcape owner who isn't getting email from me, and you were not at the owners meeting in May, you may not be aware that you have to call the resort (401-477-4700) to be put on the list to receive a copy of the meeting minutes.  You can also request a copy of the financial report which will most likely not be included with the minutes.


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## Sou13

*Southcape owners Yahoogroup*

*Thanks to TUG*, Southcape owners now have a Yahoogroup to be in touch with other owners.  This can prove to be important as Festiva acquires an ever-greater share of the timeshare weeks.  Please click on the Southcape archives link below to see what the group has to offer.

Yesterday I received a presorted first-class mail from Festiva which was marked *"Invoice Enclosed"* and contained more than an invoice.  Enclosed also were a letter from our Resort Manager and a copy of the 2013 Budget.  This is a marked improvement over the first year when it was more important to include a Festiva brochure than to keep us informed of what's been going on at Southcape!

If you are not an owner and are wondering whether to buy or rent a week at Southcape, check us out!


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## Sou13

*Escape to the Cape*

February school vacation is a good time to relax with the kids at Southcape Resort.  I'm back from a quiet week there with fond memories and no regrets.
There's plenty to do on Cape Cod during the off-season and Units 1-31 have fireplaces and washers and dryers in every unit, while Units 32-55 have jacuzzis.  All units have Wi-Fi and DVD players in addition to two cable TVs.  If you don't have kids in school it's not too late to escape to the Cape for a relaxing week in Mashpee, MA!


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## Sou13

*Festiva owner appreciation dinner in Providence, RI*

I'm hoping to be able to find a way to get to the dinner at the Wyndham Garden, 220 India Street, Providence, RI, this evening at 6 p.m.  Are any owners on TUG planning to attend?


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## Sou13

*2013 Owners meeting minutes*

The April 27, 2013 owners meeting minutes have finally been mailed to Southcape owners who requested a copy.  If you haven't requested a copy or received your copy by now, please contact rcassidy@festiva.travel and please let me know if your email is returned undeliverable, or try calling the resort @ 508-477-4700.

I am no longer posting these minutes to this discussion.  They will be uploaded to the files of the southcapeowners Yahoogroup instead.


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## tschwa2

Thanks for keeping TUG informed.  Do you feel like you are getting anywhere with the fight?  Do you think Festiva management is beginning to give in a little?


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## Sou13

tschwa2 said:


> Thanks for keeping TUG informed.  Do you feel like you are getting anywhere with the fight?  Do you think Festiva management is beginning to give in a little?



Not only is the management not giving in, the squeeze is on to convince weeks owners to convert to the FAC.  The latest tactic is to invite owners to a delicious dinner in their area, only to ruin their enjoyment of the meal by having them sequestered to a table facing a salesperson who's supposed to be their personal rep *IF* they can be convinced to convert their weeks to Festiva points, and buy enough points to qualify for a personal rep.


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## Sou13

*2014 Owners Association Meeting Saturday May 17, 12 noon*

In case you've forgotten, you were notified of this meeting date in the letter accompanying your 2014 MF bill.

If you've attended a meeting since Festiva took over Southcape Resort you know that you want to arrive early and stop by the clubhouse for whatever is provided for brunch or lunch.

I hope to see you there!


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## Sou13

*2014 owners meeting*



Sou13 said:


> In case you've forgotten, you were notified of this meeting date in the letter accompanying your 2014 MF bill.
> 
> If you've attended a meeting since Festiva took over Southcape Resort you know that you want to arrive early and stop by the clubhouse for whatever is provided for brunch or lunch.
> 
> I hope to see you there!



For a copy of the 2013 owners meeting minutes when they are available email rcassidy@festiva.travel.

For the financial report given to owners who attended the meeting you are encouraged to join the southcapeowners Yahoogroup if you are an owner who was unable to attend the meeting.  Please contact me for info on how you can become a member of the Yahoogroup.

You can also request these reports when spending your week at Southcape.


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## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> For a copy of the 2013 owners meeting minutes when they are available email rcassidy@festiva.travel.
> 
> For the financial report given to owners who attended the meeting you are encouraged to join the southcapeowners Yahoogroup if you are an owner who was unable to attend the meeting.  Please contact me for info on how you can become a member of the Yahoogroup.
> 
> You can also request these reports when spending your week at Southcape.



I've learned that Rosaleen Cassidy has a new email address.  I'ts rcassidy@pattonhospitality.com.  Sorry for the inconvenience!


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## Sou13

*2014 owners meeting minutes*

The 2014 owners meeting minutes were mailed to owners who requested them this week.  If you did not request a copy you can call the resort (508-477-4700) or email rcassidy@pattonhospitality.com.


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## Sou13

*Surprise meeting notice from Rosaleen*

Wow!  Did you get the very important surprise meeting notice from Rosaleen?  Open ASAP!


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## Sou13

*Surprise meeting notice from Rosaleen*



Sou13 said:


> Wow!  Did you get the very important surprise meeting notice from Rosaleen?  Open ASAP!



It's not a bill, it's a notice of the annual HOA meeting which will be taking place April 25 instead of the Saturday after Mothers Day.  What's most surprising about is the list of HOA weeks being offered for sale to owners.

If you are a Southcape Resort owner who also posts to TUG please reply.  Thanks.


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## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> It's not a bill, it's a notice of the annual HOA meeting which will be taking place April 25 instead of the Saturday after Mothers Day.  What's most surprising about is the list of HOA weeks being offered for sale to owners.
> 
> If you are a Southcape Resort owner who also posts to TUG please reply.  Thanks.



I'm staying at Southcape until Saturday 10 a.m. and can be reached at 508-477-4700x127 until checkout.


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## Sou13

*2015 owners meeting minutes*

The minutes of the 2015 owners meeting arrived in my USPS mailbox this week. Please contact the Resort if you did not request or haven't received a copy. I will be uploading a copy of mine to the Yahoogroup files sometime in the near future. Please visit the group if you are learning about us from reading this post. Thank you!


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## Sou13

*2016 Owners Meeting Saturday, April 30, 2016*

2016 Owners Meeting
12:00 PM - 2:30PM, SAT, APR 30, 2016
Southcape Resort Clubhouse

APR 2016
S	M	T	W	T	F	S
27	28	29	30	31	1	2
3	4	5	6	7	8	9
10	11	12	13	14	15	16
17	18	19	20	21	22	23
24	25	26	27	28	29	*30*

Notes: Check in to clubhouse early enough to enjoy refreshments and meet other owners prior to the meeting, which usually takes place in the indoor tennis courts.


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## Sou13

Sou13 said:


> 2016 Owners Meeting
> 12:00 PM - 2:30PM, SAT, APR 30, 2016
> Southcape Resort Clubhouse
> 
> APR 2016
> S	M	T	W	T	F	S
> 27	28	29	30	31	1	2
> 3	4	5	6	7	8	9
> 10	11	12	13	14	15	16
> 17	18	19	20	21	22	23
> 24	25	26	27	28	29	*30*
> 
> Notes: Check in to clubhouse early enough to enjoy refreshments and meet other owners prior to the meeting, which usually takes place in the indoor tennis courts.



Call or email the resort if you haven't requested the minutes of this year's meeting. The minutes haven't yet been mailed.


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## Sou13

*2016 owners meeting minutes*



Sou13 said:


> Call or email the resort if you haven't requested the minutes of this year's meeting. The minutes haven't yet been mailed.



The 2016 owners meeting minutes have been mailed to owners who requested them. If you requested them but haven't yet received them be on the lookout for them. If you haven't requested them, please contact the resort.

I'd appreciate feedback from owners who attended the meeting. Thank you!


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## TUGBrian

appears this story is finally coming to an end?









						Timeshare Owners Question Their Future At Southcape Resort In Mashpee
					

An ongoing discussion around the future of timeshares at Southcape Resort and Club has left several longtime owners with uncertainty during what might be the last summer in which they




					www.capenews.net


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## wackymother

I had forgotten about the drama that was Southcape! Did the owners get any compensation? Or were they just pushed out?


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## nerodog

Scott_Ru said:


> We like both Sea Mist and Southcape.  Sea Mist units are 2 floors for the most part, with the bedrooms up some steep stairs.  That might deter some.
> 
> Both are quite servicable.  e.bram is obviously an "ocean person," but there is much to do in the Mashpee area and the ocean is not far away.
> 
> I think you'd be happy with either -- though we do prefer the pool at Sea Mist.


Hi..not all Seamist units are townhouse styles. There are 1BR and 2BR units all on one floor.


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## CKMason

wackymother said:


> I had forgotten about the drama that was Southcape! Did the owners get any compensation? Or were they just pushed out?


Check this out:








						Timeshare Owners Question Their Future At Southcape Resort In Mashpee
					

An ongoing discussion around the future of timeshares at Southcape Resort and Club has left several longtime owners with uncertainty during what might be the last summer in which they




					www.capenews.net
				




It looks as if the timeshare owners will be having a vote in November to determine if they terminate their ownership.


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## tomt73

On the face of the article, it looks like the owners would have a good basis for a breach-of-fiduciary-duty lawsuit against the Board. 31 units on Cape Cod near the ocean for ~ $4 million  = $129k/unit. Even allowing for a wildly pessimistic $100k/unit for renovation/rehab costs, that's still $229k/unit in a market where they are probably worth at least $300-$350k each. Such a difference would finance a lot of legal fees.


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## e.bram

BM243923 said:


> Does anybody have any upated information about Southcape Resort in Mashpee.  I am thinking about purchasing a unit at this resort, but the reviews are not recent.  Any help would be appreciated.


Look at Surfside Resort or Captain's Quarters in East Falmouth. Insread.
Why go to the Cape if not to be on the OCEAN!


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## wackymother

e.bram said:


> Look at Surfside Resort or Captain's Quarters in East Falmouth. Insread.
> Why go to the Cape if not to be on the OCEAN!



E. Bram: Insisting on Oceanfront since Aught-Eight.


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## silentg

I would not purchase at Southcape with the uncertainty of the resort moving forward. It sounds like the resort will be changing either way.


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## BM243923

silentg said:


> I would not purchase at Southcape with the uncertainty of the resort moving forward. It sounds like the resort will be changing either way.


That ship has sailed.  I don't when the post quoted was posted.  I bought at Sea Mist and have sold that many years ago!


----------

