# Deja vu all over again on the Marriot Board



## DeniseM (Jun 16, 2010)

It's deja vu all over again on the Marriott Board!   

Does it remind anyone of this forum last Aug.?


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 16, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> It's deja vu all over again on the Marriott Board!
> 
> Does it remind anyone of this forum last Aug.?



A little but from what I heard personally from Marriott myself, this is even a bigger change than what we went through last year.


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## DeniseM (Jun 16, 2010)

I am not familiar with the details, I was referring to the chaos and confusion!


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 16, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> I am not familiar with the details, I was referring to the chaos and confusion!



Way more chaos and confusion than what we went through. I've been following it, as I about bought a Marriott week last year and might consider one in the future.


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## DeniseM (Jun 16, 2010)

Twinkstarr said:


> Way more chaos and confusion than what we went through. I've been following it, as I about bought a Marriott week last year and might consider one in the future.



Yeah - they are NOT having fun over there!


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## scrapngen (Jun 16, 2010)

Actually, I think some of "them" are.  Seems to me the real grief will come/show up in the next thread that actually follows the implementation...


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## Twinkstarr (Jun 16, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Yeah - they are NOT having fun over there!



It's going to be a long weekend of last minute speculation, the new program kicks off on Monday.

And it looks like Marriott is trying to re-invent the wheel, instead of just using the basis of point systems already out there. I know they had hired Hyatt/Hilton people to work on the system. 

Not sure how it's all going to work, which is one reason I held off on buying a Marriott week.


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## l2trade (Jun 16, 2010)

I am having fun over there.  I've also spent countless hours talking with Marriott sales reps, especially over the past few days.  In many ways, this is much bigger and totally different from what Starwood pulled on owners last August.


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## eunsill (Jun 16, 2010)

I started reading and then saw that it was 101 pages long!  Um - too much of a headache for me.  

I'll stick with trying to figure out my first resale purchase first.


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## SDKath (Jun 16, 2010)

Can someone who has been following this whole saga distill it for us in a few sentences?  I own a Marriott but I definitely don't have the time to read through 101 pages of threads...

Thanks!

Katherine


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## billymach4 (Jun 16, 2010)

eunsill said:


> I started reading and then saw that it was 101 pages long!  Um - too much of a headache for me.
> 
> I'll stick with trying to figure out my first resale purchase first.



Its amazing to me how some of us just stick to one particular subject matter. I am like  "How can you not know what is going on". 

Then every now and then someone comes in and asks for a summary. Then we tell them this is all still speculation.... HA!

But finally I think we are getting close to some real substance   

Yes I am having fun. No sweat. 

I have read some of the Starwood misery. They should be flogged for what Starwood is doing to your TS's.

This is exactly what I was describing.


SDKath said:


> Can someone who has been following this whole saga distill it for us in a few sentences?  I own a Marriott but I definitely don't have the time to read through 101 pages of threads...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Katherine


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## RedDogSD (Jun 16, 2010)

SDKath said:


> Can someone who has been following this whole saga distill it for us in a few sentences?  I own a Marriott but I definitely don't have the time to read through 101 pages of threads...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Katherine




Kath,

Just read post #2384 on page 96 and that is the ONLY important information in the thread.  The rest is just fun arguing.  I won't quote it here out of respect for the Starwood board.


Edit to add link to page


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## SDKath (Jun 16, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> Kath,
> 
> Just read post #2384 on page 96 and that is the ONLY important information in the thread.  The rest is just fun arguing.  I won't quote it here out of respect for the Starwood board.



Thank you.  I just don't have time to read through hundreds of posts of speculation.  But if there is one good post of actual facts, that helps me tremendously....

It's a lot like the II thing with Starwood was 6 months ago.  1000s of posts but no real facts for months!  Frustrating for me so I just stop reading...

Katherine


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## l2trade (Jun 16, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> Kath,
> 
> Just read post #2384 on page 96 and that is the ONLY important information in the thread.  The rest is just fun arguing.  I won't quote it here out of respect for the Starwood board.



Thank you!   

I stake my TUG reputation on the accuracy of my post.  I feel very confident that I distilled these truths from my lengthy conversations with Marriott employees.  If I was duped, I will have a lot of explaining to do.


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## SDKath (Jun 16, 2010)

l2trade said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I stake my TUG reputation on the accuracy of my post.  I feel very confident that I distilled these truths from my lengthy conversations with Marriott employees.  If I was duped, I will have a lot of explaining to do.



I just read your posts and responses.  Thank you!!! Well thought out and to the point.    No need to explain to me....

Katherine


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## nodge (Jun 16, 2010)

RedDogSD said:


> Just read post #2384 on page 96 and that is the ONLY important information in the thread.  The rest is just fun arguing.  I won't quote it here out of respect for the Starwood board.



Here is a direct link to that post.  Remember, it is summarizing anticipated changes to MARRIOTT’s timeshare system, NOT Starwood’s timeshare system.

-nodge


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## LisaH (Jun 16, 2010)

Thank you! I'm in Caribbean and only have access to my BB. This is a lot easier to acess the particular post. 
I hope we will know next week more details of the new system.


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## yumdrey (Jun 16, 2010)

Starwood made me immune to any TS system/rule changes, so I am not surprised this time for Marriott's change 
Above link is very helpful to understand the changes, thank you!


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## taffy19 (Jun 17, 2010)

Twinkstarr said:


> It's going to be a long weekend of last minute speculation, the new program kicks off on Monday.
> 
> And it looks like Marriott is trying to re-invent the wheel, instead of just using the basis of point systems already out there. I know they had hired Hyatt/Hilton people to work on the system.
> 
> Not sure how it's all going to work, which is one reason I held off on buying a Marriott week.


According to post #2178, the new system was developed by a former DVC executive who now works for the Marriott and not by Hyatt/Hilton people.

I have a feeling too that Marriott has learned from the mistakes that Starwood made by upsetting so many of their loyal customers according to this post and I hope so.

All of us will receive an email on Monday with the new details finally.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 22, 2010)

I think the thread about the new points system broke records for TUG!  

There are so many new threads that touch on various aspects of the system.  Marriott owners have different opinions, but it is obvious to me that most don't like it.  I wonder if it will be a bust for Marriott?  Seems that booking in your own season through their system is going to cost more money, because the point values are higher than you actually get.  But if you book your week like always, no problem doing it.  

I didn't read all of the posts, it's like reading a book, so I stopped about halfway through.  Maybe I am making assumptions I shouldn't be making.


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## Transit (Jun 22, 2010)

rickandcindy23 said:


> Seems that booking in your own season through their system is going to cost more money, because the point values are higher than you actually get.  But if you book your week like always, no problem doing it.



This is like the 76,000 SO's Starwood is giving Vistana owners when it costs 81000 to trade in.I hope this will not become a  trend for the future of Star options usage.


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## Bill4728 (Jun 22, 2010)

One other thing,  resell owners will be grandfathered (for an extra $1000) into the new system but anyone buying resale and closing after June 22 2010 will not be allowed in the system.


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## SDKath (Jun 22, 2010)

The biggest problem in my eyes is that the points can change at any time and can go up at any time!    

The only reassuring thing about DVC is that the points must stay the same forever!  Otherwise, like airline miles and starpoints, the company would be able to increase the points and scr@w the owners at any given time!

No way am I converting my resale week to a system like this.  Not to mention that the conversion fee is a whopping $1500!!!  That is more than my TS is worth at this point!  :annoyed: 

Katherine


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## jlp (Jun 22, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> I am not familiar with the details, I was referring to the chaos and confusion!



Yes indeed! I was so surprised to see that my resort was not in the new vacation club.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 22, 2010)

SDKath said:


> Can someone who has been following this whole saga distill it for us in a few sentences?  I own a Marriott but I definitely don't have the time to read through 101 pages of threads...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Katherine



Yes, I can.  Marriott sucks!


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## SDKath (Jun 22, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> Yes, I can.  Marriott sucks!



ROFL!  This is a great summary.  I am thinking it now sucks MORE than Starwood, if that's even possible.  

Katherine


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## scrapngen (Jun 22, 2010)

iconnections said:


> According to post #2178, the new system was developed by a former DVC executive who now works for the Marriott and not by Hyatt/Hilton people.
> 
> I have a feeling too that Marriott has learned from the mistakes that Starwood made by upsetting so many of their loyal customers according to this post and I hope so.
> 
> All of us will receive an email on Monday with the new details finally.



Sorry, but it's Tuesday and  I don't see that email, and from everything I've been able to read and follow (which is pretty much all the postings and much of the documents) I don't think Marriott learned anything from the mistakes Starwood made except how to make sure anything they did was contractual and legal...Doesn't seem like they are concerned about the loyal customers, just the loyal stockholders. Sorry, I know there are positives, but had they simply set a fee to exchange the points rather than hiding the fee in a 7% (and in case of one of my plat. plus fixed week 24%!!)  skim when points are utilized it might not have caused so much flak. 

Still, I suspect a LOT of non-tuggers will switch as it doesn't appear on the surface to cost much and can easily be touted as more flexibility. So everyone else (Marriott non point folks, Starwood et. al.  ) has to deal with that loss of properties available in II.


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## camachinist (Jun 22, 2010)

> Marriott sucks!



The resorts are still marvelous, but, yeah, Marriott has obtained Hoover status. Hope their stupidity doesn't implode a valued timeshare branding.


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## esk444 (Jun 22, 2010)

Bill4728 said:


> One other thing,  resell owners will be grandfathered (for an extra $1000) into the new system but anyone buying resale and closing after June 22 2010 will not be allowed in the system.



Isn't that prohibition only for Marriott deeded weeks existing as of today?  

If the points sold by Marriott after June 22, 2010 are generic points like Worldmark and Royal Holiday Club, with no underlying deeded weeks, wouldn't resale buyers of these pure point packages have to be allowed in the points system?  Otherwise, there is nothing for the original purchasers of retail points package to sell and make the market value of what they bought essentially be zero.


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## BocaBum99 (Jun 22, 2010)

esk444 said:


> Isn't that prohibition only for Marriott deeded weeks existing as of today?
> 
> If the points sold by Marriott after June 22, 2010 are generic points like Worldmark and Royal Holiday Club, with no underlying deeded weeks, wouldn't resale buyers of these pure point packages have to be allowed in the points system?  Otherwise, there is nothing for the original purchasers of retail points package to sell and make the market value of what they bought essentially be zero.



I think I saw that there will be some type of fee to re-enroll resale points into the program. I think it was $2000.


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## l2trade (Jun 22, 2010)

While I am taking a self-imposed break from posting anything on the Marriott Board, I do want to share something fascinating about it here.  This post of mine got lost in the barrage of recent posts.  Perhaps, this comparison between Starwood and Marriott changes with II deserved a thread all its own.  Deja vu all over again on the Marriott Board!  I can't say it any better myself -

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=930453&postcount=242


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## SDKath (Jun 22, 2010)

BocaBum99 said:


> I think I saw that there will be some type of fee to re-enroll resale points into the program. I think it was $2000.



$1500 until Dec of this year.  Then no choice!  It does allow for less than 1 week travel but since the points can be changed at any time, no one should be fooled into thinking that this is a good new system.  What is to stop them from raising the point requirement in a few years so that my 1 week ownership at Shadow Ridge will only get me 2 weekend nights instead of the week I get now!!!

Katherine


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## billymach4 (Jun 22, 2010)

*Marriott Vacation Club De......*

MVCD

The new system has caught on. 

Marriott Vacation Club Degradations.


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## Stefa (Jun 22, 2010)

SDKath said:


> $1500 until Dec of this year.



The $2000 Boca quoted was for resale points contracts.  I believe that $2000 is the minimum and it may be more for certain contracts.  There are none of these on the market as yet because Marriott just started selling points this week.

The $1500 is for resale weeks contracts.  Either way, they are sticking it to resale buyers which, of course, really hurts the sellers who paid big bucks for developer weeks that they need to unload.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 22, 2010)

Katherine -- As much as I think Marriott screwed up on the skimming issue, the pricing (of points) and the lack of a home resort/associated preference period, I think the "they can change point levels anytime they want" issue may be being overblown.  Every major point system, _including Starwood's_, has a similar clause -- yet point changes are few and far between.  I do think new resorts will cost more points ... but that's par for the course as well.

If I only owned or or two weeks, I wouldn't convert.  I think "week for week" trading in II or with SFX will be better, at least for the foreseeable future.


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## SDKath (Jun 22, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> Katherine -- As much as I think Marriott screwed up on the skimming issue, the pricing (of points) and the lack of a home resort/associated preference period, I think the "they can change point levels anytime they want" issue may be being overblown.  Every major point system, _including Starwood's_, has a similar clause -- yet point changes are few and far between.  I do think new resorts will cost more points ... but that's par for the course as well.
> 
> If I only owned or or two weeks, I wouldn't convert.  I think "week for week" trading in II or with SFX will be better, at least for the foreseeable future.



Actually DVC doesn't allow point value changes.  The points for a given resort are fixed for the lifetime of the ownership and while they may change points from one week to the next each year (ie president's weekend is a different date each year), the TOTAL for that year and that resort is fixed forever.  It's the only fair way to do things IMHO.  Ironic that the person who supposedly got hired by Marriott to craft this new program was from Disney!

Katherine


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## taffy19 (Jun 22, 2010)

scrapngen said:


> Sorry, but it's Tuesday and I don't see that email, and from everything I've been able to read and follow (which is pretty much all the postings and much of the documents) I don't think Marriott learned anything from the mistakes Starwood made except how to make sure anything they did was contractual and legal...Doesn't seem like they are concerned about the loyal customers, just the loyal stockholders. Sorry, I know there are positives, but had they simply set a fee to exchange the points rather than hiding the fee in a 7% (and in case of one of my plat. plus fixed week 24%!!) skim when points are utilized it might not have caused so much flak.
> 
> Still, I suspect a LOT of non-tuggers will switch as it doesn't appear on the surface to cost much and can easily be touted as more flexibility. So everyone else (Marriott non point folks, Starwood et. al.  ) has to deal with that loss of properties available in II.


I cannot believe what Marriott is doing to their loyal customer base.  I am glad that I am reading the TUG board so can ask the right questions, if they contact us. I am very curious how they will answer some of these questions without being embarrassed. No email yet as I just checked it.

The new internal exchange system will be OK for the 13,000 plus point owners who enroll but the competition will be fierce once new resorts are built and new point owners come in the system and can go anywhere.

What will happen when the trust has more votes than individual owner votes? Marriott will then control everything and a deeded week may be put in the trust if you like it or not. Can they really do that?  It may take quite a few years before it gets that far, I hope.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 22, 2010)

Katherine -- Yes, you're right -- I forgot to add that stipulation.  But, I'm fairly certain that consumer protection laws will force Marriott to have a similar "balancing" clause.  It can't possibly be legal for them to sell 1 million points with X underlying days/weeks of associated usage, then raise the points required to book the same underlying days weeks to 1.2 million (nothwithstanding the addition of new inventory, of course).  I could be wrong -- I'm shocked that the upfront points "skimming" is legal -- but it must be if fully disclosed upfront as Marriott has done.  Still, I don't think it will be legal to pull a "bait and switch" and increase future points requirements without offsetting decreases.  None of the three systems I mentioned does anything remotely similar to that ... points in = points out.  And, although Starwood did something similar when the SVR weeks were added to SVN, didn't we determine that the totals balanced (i.e., the number of SOs given to SVR owners equaled the total number required to book all weeks)?  Some (including me) would have expected Starwood to skim if it had been legal.  They probably just didn't think of it!


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## sail27bill (Jun 22, 2010)

*I just want to say Thank You Tug!!!*

Over 5 years ago we bought from Starwood direct and then discovered Tug.  Thankfully it kept us from buying another developer week.  A few months ago we were looking at buying a Marriott week re-sale at Ford's Colony and found information about possible changes to the Marriott structure.  Boy are we glad we did and waited!!  Based on what I'm seeing, our Starwood staroptions chart don't seem so bad at all.  I guess I will continue to exchange or rent additional weeks as I need them from owners or through II.  Thanks Tug and thanks Marriott, maybe Starwood TS's won't sell for peanuts anymore.


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## taffy19 (Jun 22, 2010)

l2trade said:


> While I am taking a self-imposed break from posting anything on the Marriott Board, I do want to share something fascinating about it here. This post of mine got lost in the barrage of recent posts. Perhaps, this comparison between Starwood and Marriott changes with II deserved a thread all its own. Deja vu all over again on the Marriott Board! I can't say it any better myself -
> 
> http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=930453&postcount=242


It was your post that gave me hope that Marriott would treat their customer base better than Starwood did and Marriott treated all owners the same before (except for the MRPs) so I didn't expect anything else. How wrong I was.  

They learned from Starwood's mistakes not to get in trouble with their present owner base so had the smartest attorneys write the trust documents to keep Marriott happy with more control over everything including inventory at our expense.

This whole industry is changing and not in our favor and the costs are spiraling out of control. Timeshares are becoming a burden rather than an asset! Renting looks better every day and certainly in this economy which may not change anytime soon.

I can no longer quote your post but here is what you wrote:
_I am told the TRUST is for unsold inventory and how Marriott plans to sell interest in that inventory going forward. It is one method to legally establish a fixed value points bank of developer owned inventory as the foundation of the new point system. Again, it is what Marriott will do for all unsold timeshare resort inventory on Jun 17th forward. Marriott reached the conclusion that they could not sell individual deeds at the prices and speed with which they need to disposition them without upsetting existing owners. Marriott also wanted a simpler way to market to a new audience that stays in Marriott hotels and does not travel a week at a time or plan so far in advance. *Marriott is well aware that they do not want to piss off their existing, enormous owner base. The recent mistakes made by other companies are well known to them.*_​


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## l2trade (Jun 22, 2010)

iconnections said:


> It was your post that gave me hope that Marriott would treat their customer base better than Starwood did and Marriott treated all owners the same before (except for the MRPs) so I didn't expect anything else. How wrong I was.
> 
> They learned from Starwood's mistakes not to get in trouble with their present owner base so had the smartest attorneys write the trust documents to keep Marriott happy with more control over everything including inventory at our expense.
> 
> ...



And, the funny thing is, the post I wrote and you quoted is still true.  I was told this directly by Marriott.  This is why Marriott allows owners to continue to make a reservation and deposit it with II just like they have always done.  Marriott is well aware of Starwood's mistake, learned from it and didn't want to piss existing owners off.  So they found out how to do the same thing without bluntly telling and showing owners how they are screwing them.  If they didn't steal back and balance out the points inventory from II weeks owner exchanges, the point system would get the bulk of all the crappy weeks left over.  Just like SVN.  Same problem, different solution.  Truthful sales pitch, yet Brilliantly devious!  

The devil is in the details and the back room agreement where Marriott and II got together to make things 'fair' & 'average' for all users.  IMHO, it achieves essentially the same thing that Starwood did, albeit without shoving all the dirty details in owners faces.  I cannot prove any of this, beyond the FAQs I posted on day 1 of the official release.  I don't know how we will ever see firsthand the gory details of how the inventory in these different systems are actually managed.


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## Mjasp (Jun 22, 2010)

l2trade said:


> I am having fun over there.  I've also spent countless hours talking with Marriott sales reps, especially over the past few days.  In many ways, this is much bigger and totally different from what Starwood pulled on owners last August.



Can I ask you, since I don't own at a mandatory resort, what did Starwood pull last August on their owners.


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## DeniseM (Jun 22, 2010)

Mjasp said:


> Can I ask you, since I don't own at a mandatory resort, what did Starwood pull last August on their owners.



The made major changes in the II trading rules - more info.

The changes actually affected voluntary owners like you, more than SVN members.  (Unless you own a fixed week - the new rules don't apply to fixed weeks.)


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## Mjasp (Jun 22, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> The made major changes in the II trading rules - more info.
> 
> The changes actually affected voluntary owners like you, more than SVN members.



Thanks for that link, that is actually one of the questions I planned to ask Starwood.  I have a fixed week and wanted to ask them if I join SVN and I bank my week am I actually banking "my" week which is week 32.
I see that fixed owners do bank their fixed week, but I will be asking anyway.

My other question is...Can I still deposit my week in RCI if I want to, or do I "have" to use II for trading


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## DeniseM (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes - the new rules do not apply to fixed weeks at all.  Don't count on your II Rep. to know that - but I have it in writing from the top.

You can use RCI, too.  Which you choose really depends on where you want to go.


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## sail27bill (Aug 3, 2010)

*I hate to revive this thread but...*

I am going crazy reading all the posts on the Marriott board.  As we see a Marriott resale in our future, and as I have 2 developer weeks with Starwood (yes I know, I know) I was wondering what is the possibility that Starwood could pull a Marriott and start selling staroptions--ie. selling the dream of vacationing in St. John to all.  The reason I ask is that Starwood always says the week on your deed doesn't matter (for float) as you can book any week in your season, but what happens if some weeks were charged more staroptions for stays than others (as per Marriott) in that season?  Is this even possible?  All hypothesis, black helicopter theories and general horror stories welcome.:whoopie:


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## LisaRex (Aug 3, 2010)

sail27bill said:


> As we see a Marriott resale in our future, and as I have 2 developer weeks with Starwood (yes I know, I know) I was wondering what is the possibility that Starwood could pull a Marriott and start selling staroptions--ie. selling the dream of vacationing in St. John to all.



Who knows? It's my belief that because new construction has been put on hold, which is where the big $$$s are, TS companies are getting more and more desperate and more and more creative with ways to bolster their bottom lines.  Who'd have ever thunk that they'd roll out a new program, (albeit with impressive sounding verbiage (Oooh, I can be an "elite" owner in a "destination" club!)), layered right on top of their existing program?  Could it be more confusing or more poorly executed? I don't think so.  I hope Marriott is enjoying their influx of dollars.  Because they have damaged their reputation immensely.  I haven't seen such an example of corporate suicide since Coke rolled out New Coke!

So, no, it wouldn't surprise me if Starwood wasn't exploring their own way of screwing owners yet again.  After all, we're their captive customers and it's kind of hard to sell a "pre-paid vacation" when MFs are so high, so what's left to do?  It's all about boosting their bottom line. Because they know full well that if they don't keep putting up the numbers, their joy ride will be over.  

Of course, a more likely scenario for Starwood would be to simply continue with status quo and keep increasing MFs, which will lead to more defaults, which will lead to even bigger MF bills... to the point where owners will have no choice but to simply walk away.*  At that point, Starwood will come in and simply buy up their interest for nothing, then absorb those properties  into their hotel program.   

*Except, perhaps, Westin5Star, who will continue to pay based on nothing but principle.  You go Westin5Star!


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## gravitar (Aug 3, 2010)

Isn't Starwood already quasi points?

You own a deeded week

If you exchange out of your season at your resort your week is converted to points.

If you exchange to any other resort, your week is converted to points.

Based on how many points your deeded week is worth, you can have more use than your week, if you are exchanging down in season or villa size.

Based on how many points your deeded week is worth, you can have less use than your week, if you are exchanging up in season or villa size, etc.

In resorts where owners were invited to join. They can stay in their home resort for less points than those that are trading in based on the SO chart. 

I don't hear anyone complain about the way the StarOption points work and I don't think anyone here has been "skimmed"


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## Fredm (Aug 3, 2010)

The Marriott board is over the top.

Fact of the matter is that an additional exchange option has been offered to Marriott legacy owners. 

The system that Marriott owners have come to enjoy for 26 years remains entirely intact. Those that choose to not enroll in the new points exchange can continue to do exactly what they have always done, in exactly the same way.
Those that do enroll can choose to use points for partial week trades, *OR*, continue to use the proven legacy system, at their complete discretion every year.

I am not going to rehash what has already been rung dry on the Marriott board here. This is the Starwood board.

What I have just stated is a fact. What is being argued on the Marriott board is anxiety over what some think might happen to the legacy system, but has not happened. Others are having a good time picking apart an option they do not have to participate in.  
Yet, an early sampling suggests some percentage of owners have concluded it will benefit them to voluntarily join. 

Nice to have an option, IMO.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 3, 2010)

Fredm said:


> The Marriott board is over the top.
> 
> Fact of the matter is that an additional exchange option has been offered to Marriott legacy owners.
> 
> ...



No horse... and it nice to have the option, but the cost to all for that this option has some potential downside - especially 1) the more competetion for Home Resort priviledge, and 2) the Bid/Ask diferrences for exchanging.

For SVO - the system is already set-up and some resorts do have a Bid/Ask difference, and per CCRs SVO can modify SOs as they see fit (and have) - as well as SO-SP conversion rates (directly and indirectly).


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## Fredm (Aug 3, 2010)

DavidnRobin said:


> No horse... and it nice to have the option, but the cost to all for that this option has some potential downside - especially 1) the more competetion for Home Resort priviledge, and 2) the Bid/Ask diferrences for exchanging.



Absolutely. Each can determine if it suits their purpose. If not, no harm no foul.


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## LisaRex (Aug 3, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Absolutely. Each can determine if it suits their purpose. If not, no harm no foul.



Allowing points buyers to reserve at my home resort a month ahead of me is hardly "no harm, no foul." 

Skimming doesn't bother me nearly as much as the booking preference.  For people who bought in places like Maui, which is designated as all platinum, it could add to the problem of reserving a week during the summer.


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## Fredm (Aug 3, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Allowing points buyers to reserve at my home resort a month ahead of me is hardly "no harm, no foul."
> 
> Skimming doesn't bother me nearly as much as the booking preference.  For people who bought in places like Maui, which is designated as all platinum, it could add to the problem of reserving a week during the summer.



Point buyers can't do that, unless an owner converts the week for a points exchange.  It's the very same thing as a multi-week owner reserving 13 months in advance, then renting to someone else. Or, if Marriott literally owns it or controls it because of MRP conversions.

Skimming is irrelevant. It has zero impact on a legacy system participant. 

I could go on, but .... 
My statements stand.


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## l2trade (Aug 3, 2010)

Starwood has lots of unsold deeds, but no trust.  How could they NOT be considering that possibility?  I understand it, I don't like it.

IMHO, I will stick with old school timeshares.  I prefer fixed over float and float over points and deeds over BI and owner rights over BS...  I prefer the separation of management company and exchange company.  I wish for separation of management company and developer.  I guess I will settle for an independent HOA board.


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## LisaRex (Aug 3, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Point buyers can't do that, unless an owner converts the week for a points exchange.  It's the very same thing as a multi-week owner reserving 13 months in advance, then renting to someone else.



That's true, but is there any verbiage preventing Marriott from cherry picking the best weeks? Consider this: Let's say 250 Marriott Maui Ocean Club owners convert to points in 2011.  Since all MOC owners are platinum float owners, what's to prevent Marriott from cherry picking the best weeks (e.g. 200 summer week  and 50 winter weeks) to throw into their points program? By the time the multi-week owners are done picking off the inventory at 13 weeks, it may be extremely difficult for single week owners to reserve a summer week. 

In other words, a points owner can conceivably trump a non-points owner at their own resort!  Or am I missing something? 

Ditto for "hot" weeks (e.g. July 4th) within any given season.  Is there anything to prevent Marriott from cherry picking the prime weeks anytime an owner in that season converts to points?


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## SDKath (Aug 4, 2010)

They also can raise the points required for stays at any time, right?  That makes point devaluation a HUGE potential problem in my eye.  Put it this way -- any point system that doesn't have a prohibition against raising points (like Disney) has ALWAYS continued to raise the points needed.  Always.  So why would Marriott be different?   

Katherine


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## Fredm (Aug 4, 2010)

SDKath said:


> They also can raise the points required for stays at any time, right?  That makes point devaluation a HUGE potential problem in my eye.  Put it this way -- any point system that doesn't have a prohibition against raising points (like Disney) has ALWAYS continued to raise the points needed.  Always.  So why would Marriott be different?
> 
> Katherine



Nothing. I am not an advocate of the points system.
My point (no pun) is that it is simply an option for legacy week owners, if they choose to voluntarily join the new exchange. 
If they do not, then nothing changes for them.

I do understand why some savvy tuggers have chosen to join the new exchange, warts and all. It does offer  partial week exchanges, potential for reduced fees, and Marriott reward points for resale owners.
Last, but not least, an exchange member can choose to participate or not each year. So, if they do not convert to points in a given year they just use the legacy system they have always used.

It is important to note that Marriott is not marketing the D-Club exchange as a substitute for legacy system weekly exchanges. They have been clear that it offers legacy owners the flexibility of *partial week* exchanges. 

This is far different than having new system rules shoved down an owners throat.


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## Fredm (Aug 4, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> > That's true, but is there any verbiage preventing Marriott from cherry picking the best weeks? Consider this: Let's say 250 Marriott Maui Ocean Club owners convert to points in 2011.  Since all MOC owners are platinum float owners, what's to prevent Marriott from cherry picking the best weeks (e.g. 200 summer week  and 50 winter weeks) to throw into their points program? By the time the multi-week owners are done picking off the inventory at 13 weeks, it may be extremely difficult for single week owners to reserve a summer week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fredm (Aug 4, 2010)

l2trade said:


> IMHO, I will stick with old school timeshares.  I prefer fixed over float and float over points and deeds over BI and owner rights over BS...  I prefer the separation of management company and exchange company.  I wish for separation of management company and developer.  I guess I will settle for an independent HOA board.



I am with you! 

The big take-away from the Marriott points exchange announcement is that legacy weeks retain what they have always enjoyed. A week is still 7 nights, administered as it always has. Same reservation process, same I.I. exchange preference, etc.


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## LisaRex (Aug 4, 2010)

Fredm said:


> They will be able to take weeks in direct proportion to the number of owners who convert, week by week. Not in advance of each.



Sorry if this is turning into a Marriott primer, but I don't understand how this would work with an all platinum float ownership.  Can you please use some concrete examples? 

Let's say 25 owners decide on November 15, 2010 to convert their 2011 weeks to points. Are you saying that Marriott then has 25 November 15, 2011 weeks to put into their points program?  If not, then how do they pick what weeks to put into the points program and what is to prevent them from picking, say, 20 summer 2011 weeks, given that they are all platinum weeks? I do understand that there's a 1:1 ratio but aren't all points weeks going to have to put into the system "in advance"? How else could a point's owner plan a vacation?

I'm soooo confused. 

If there's a simple primer on the Marriott board, I'd be happy to check it out.  However, I've been kind of avoiding it because I have enough problems with Starwood.


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## Lawlar (Aug 4, 2010)

*We Are All In The Same Lifeboat*

OK, I admit it.  I posted on one of your Starwood threads last summer when you were all wailing about Starwood's system.  I probably was a bit smug when I told you how I had checked out the Westin resort on Maui and, after listening to the sales pitch, walked down the beach and bought at MOC.

I still like the beach better at MOC, but now all I can say about Marriott is:  HELP!!!!!!


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## Fredm (Aug 4, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Sorry if this is turning into a Marriott primer, but I don't understand how this would work with an all platinum float ownership.  Can you please use some concrete examples?
> 
> Let's say 25 owners decide on November 15, 2010 to convert their 2011 weeks to points. Are you saying that Marriott then has 25 November 15, 2011 weeks to put into their points program?  If not, then how do they pick what weeks to put into the points program and what is to prevent them from picking, say, 20 summer 2011 weeks, given that they are all platinum weeks? I do understand that there's a 1:1 ratio but aren't all points weeks going to have to put into the system "in advance"? How else could a point's owner plan a vacation?
> 
> ...



I understand the confusion.
Sorry, no convenient primer. However, DaveM posted a response from Marriott somewhere that specifically addresses the issue you raise. I just can't find it right now. I will continue to search the numerous threads, and refer you to it when I find it.


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## DanCali (Aug 4, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Yes, there is verbiage that prevents Marriott from cherry picking. They will be able to take weeks in direct proportion to the number of owners who convert, week by week. Not in advance of each. If 20% convert, then 20% of the individual weeks can be reserved. No consolidated cherry picking.
> In fact, Marriott has stated that its computer programs are wired to prevent reservation clerks from manually manipulating the reservation pools



Fred - there is nothing in writing in regards to this. "Verbiage" is literally words spoken by Marriott people to a couple of Tuggers who expressed concern over this matter.




LisaRex said:


> Sorry if this is turning into a Marriott primer, but I don't understand how this would work with an all platinum float ownership.  Can you please use some concrete examples?
> 
> Let's say 25 owners decide on November 15, 2010 to convert their 2011 weeks to points. Are you saying that Marriott then has 25 November 15, 2011 weeks to put into their points program?  If not, then how do they pick what weeks to put into the points program and what is to prevent them from picking, say, 20 summer 2011 weeks, given that they are all platinum weeks? I do understand that there's a 1:1 ratio but aren't all points weeks going to have to put into the system "in advance"? How else could a point's owner plan a vacation?
> 
> ...




Lisa - the answer to your example, according to verbal responses from Marriott, is that Marriott (or points owners) will get a pro-rata allocation of each week in a season. So if 20% of Maui (Float 1-51) owners enroll and convert to points, points owners can reserve 20% of each week in that season. They should not have access to all the summer weeks for example.

Here is a post that confirms Marriott's position

As stated above, there are no written documents confirming this. We can take their word for what it is...


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## Fredm (Aug 4, 2010)

Here are a couple of other tuggers who have read the reference posted by DaveM. (not the post Dan referenced).

Still have not found the original post. 

Nonetheless, it all goes to intent. As a practical matter all the various buckets (including MRP conversions) are managed by Marriott. We will NEVER know exactly how Marriott manages its inventory. The proof will be in the eating. Owners will, overall, perceive that they are getting a fair shake, or not. 
The rest of the "analysis" goes into the trash bin.
Thus far, Marriott has received high marks for doing the right thing by their owners. (usual grumblings aside). 26 years worth. I will say again that those who picked apart governing docs  would not have bought a Marriott product. 
Most did not have the slightest idea of what the docs said. 
NOW, everyone is a analyst. And concern themselves with what docs *do not say, *anticipate what that could mean even though it has not happened.


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## nanette0269 (Aug 4, 2010)

Great information!  I've wanted to buy an EY/EOY Marriott property for awhile, and would in fact prefer to do a permanent exchange with my EOY SW property.  I was a bit overhwhelmed with the Marriott boards these days, as much of the stuff they post I cannot access (or I am simply lost).

That being said, if one were to buy into Marriott...would now be a good time?  Seems like the market has opened up as a result of this.  Even if the June deed deadline has passed.

Thoughts?


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## Fredm (Aug 4, 2010)

nanette0269 said:


> Great information!  I've wanted to buy an EY/EOY Marriott property for awhile, and would in fact prefer to do a permanent exchange with my EOY SW property.  I was a bit overhwhelmed with the Marriott boards these days, as much of the stuff they post I cannot access (or I am simply lost).
> 
> That being said, if one were to buy into Marriott...would now be a good time?  Seems like the market has opened up as a result of this.  Even if the June deed deadline has passed.
> 
> Thoughts?



The legacy system that has earned Marriott high ratings by its owners is alive and well.  

Prices are at all time lows. Shop for the resort you prefer. You will find some exceptional values.

You are correct. Confusion in the marketplace has not helped resale demand. Take advantage of the confusion.


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## Fredm (Aug 4, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Fred - there is nothing in writing in regards to this. "Verbiage" is literally words spoken by Marriott people to a couple of Tuggers who expressed concern over this matter.



Per my prior post:
.. _there are state laws which prevent this from happening. For example, California law anticipates such "multi-site" timeshare plan conversions. Home resort owners have a minimum 60 day reservation preference, week by week, over multi-site reservations. That is why all point reservations are "subject to availability"._

Similar language exists in most states, including Hawaii and Florida. That's why Starwood has a four month exclusive owner reservation preference period (2 months for a fixed or ULTRA owner). To accommodate these very laws. Of course, it's a completely different implementation. The underlying restrictions are the driver, nonetheless. Starwood morphs into a muli site points program for internal exchanges.


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## LisaRex (Aug 4, 2010)

Thanks for everyone's input.  It's been helpful.  We're constantly batting around the idea of selling Hawaii and buying somewhere closer (e.g. a Marriott) but the money we'd lose is daunting.  And with all the changes at Marriott, I was waiting to see how things shook out.


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## Fredm (Aug 4, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> Thanks for everyone's input.  It's been helpful.  We're constantly batting around the idea of selling Hawaii and buying somewhere closer (e.g. a Marriott) but the money we'd lose is daunting.  And with all the changes at Marriott, I was waiting to see how things shook out.



Can't hurt to continue waiting. Nothing like letting others blaze the trail and learn from what actually happens. It is clear to me at any rate that the Marriott legacy system remains as it was.

As Dan has noted on several occasions translating a paper loss into a real one changes nothing. It is what it is.


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## nanette0269 (Aug 4, 2010)

One other question for everyone here....  So if a resale marriott unit is purchased now, how do the new rules affect them?  It almost seems that the new point system is similar to Hyatt, where you can book right online and see availability, which I really like.  But, its unclear to me how the 6/2010 deed transfer deadline affects those deeds transferring now.  Is the initiation fee into the program just the higher price, and all else remains the same?  

I do like the option that Hyatt has...to exchange via II with units, but also use points to exchange within Hyatt (or do both by putting a lock-off side into II and exchange the points for Hyatt stays).  I wonder if its truly like this...and if so, the $2K premium over the current low resale costs may justify this.


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## Fredm (Aug 4, 2010)

nanette0269 said:


> One other question for everyone here....  So if a resale marriott unit is purchased now, how do the new rules affect them?  It almost seems that the new point system is similar to Hyatt, where you can book right online and see availability, which I really like.  But, its unclear to me how the 6/2010 deed transfer deadline affects those deeds transferring now.



Resales purchased and closed after 6/20 cannot participate in the points exchange. They use the legacy system.


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## m61376 (Aug 4, 2010)

Fredm said:


> Per my prior post:
> .. _there are stare laws which prevent this from happening. For example, California law anticipates such "multi-site" timeshare plan conversions. Home resort owners have a minimum 60 day reservation preference, week by week, over multi-site reservations. That is why all point reservations are "subject to availability"._
> 
> Similar language exists in most states, including Hawaii and Florida. That's why Starwood has a four month exclusive owner reservation preference period. To accommodate these very laws. Of course, it's a completely different implementation. The underlying restrictions are the driver, nonetheless. Starwood morphs into a muli site points program for internal exchanges.


Fred- What I don't understand is how this applies, since there is no home resort preference in the new Marriott program.

btw- I was actually the one who first started bringing this booking discussion up the Marriott food chain, so to speak. I was in contact with someone in authority, who recognized that this was a very important issue to many and verified that a proportionate amount of each week in the season would be allocated to point and week users (including enrolled week owners using their owned week), and not just a proportional percentage of the overall season. 

As pointed out by Dan, this was a verbal reassurance and while I was asked to hold off posting it as an official policy until it was, in fact, verified completely, we are being asked to take Marriott's word and their reputation for customer service to allay our concerns. 

I have no doubt this is their current intentions. I hope that if their program stumbles because they can't get the Platinum inventory they expected or need to fuel the system that they will remain good to their word, and won't "borrow" here and there as needed. They are cognizant that 50% of their sales come from current owners, so they maintain they will do nothing to sabotage current ownership and their reputation.

Time will tell....


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## Fredm (Aug 4, 2010)

m61376 said:


> > Fred- What I don't understand is how this applies, since there is no home resort preference in the new Marriott program.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jerseygirl (Aug 4, 2010)

I think the statutes have been muddied with regard to reservation rights, at least in Florida.  And, with timeshare rules ... as Florida goes, so goes the nation:

_(12)(a)  In addition to any other rights granted by the rules and regulations of the timeshare plan, the managing entity of a timeshare plan is authorized to manage the reservation and use of accommodations using those processes, analyses, procedures, and methods that are in the best interests of the owners as a whole to efficiently manage the timeshare plan and encourage the maximum use and enjoyment of the accommodations and other benefits made available through the timeshare plan. The managing entity shall have the right to *forecast* anticipated reservation and use of the accommodations, including the right to take into account current and previous reservation and use of the accommodations, information about events that are scheduled to occur, seasonal use patterns, and other pertinent factors that affect the reservation or use of the accommodations. In furtherance of the provisions of this subsection, *the managing entity is authorized to reserve accommodations, in the best interests of the owners as a whole, for the purposes of depositing such reserved use with an affiliated exchange program* or renting such reserved accommodations in order to facilitate the use or future use of the accommodations or other benefits made available through the timeshare plan. _

I originally thought Starwood paid for this change to the statutes to accommodate the new II rules, but now I think that Marriott and Starwood probably split the costs!


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## Fredm (Aug 5, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> I think the statutes have been muddied with regard to reservation rights, at least in Florida.  And, with timeshare rules ... as Florida goes, so goes the nation:
> 
> _(12)(a)  In addition to any other rights granted by the rules and regulations of the timeshare plan, the managing entity of a timeshare plan is authorized to manage the reservation and use of accommodations using those processes, analyses, procedures, and methods that are in the best interests of the owners as a whole to efficiently manage the timeshare plan and encourage the maximum use and enjoyment of the accommodations and other benefits made available through the timeshare plan. The managing entity shall have the right to *forecast* anticipated reservation and use of the accommodations, including the right to take into account current and previous reservation and use of the accommodations, information about events that are scheduled to occur, seasonal use patterns, and other pertinent factors that affect the reservation or use of the accommodations. In furtherance of the provisions of this subsection, *the managing entity is authorized to reserve accommodations, in the best interests of the owners as a whole, for the purposes of depositing such reserved use with an affiliated exchange program* or renting such reserved accommodations in order to facilitate the use or future use of the accommodations or other benefits made available through the timeshare plan. _
> 
> I originally thought Starwood paid for this change to the statutes to accommodate the new II rules, but now I think that Marriott and Starwood probably split the costs!



Geez! talk about vague wording! 

I believe this comes from statute 721. Doesn't this relate to multi-site timeshare plans?  If so, it may not apply to home resort reservation rights. Just how the multi-site inventory can be administered.  Honestly don't know as I have not read the whole thing.


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## jerseygirl (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes, Fred -- you're correct.  It has to do with multi-site timeshare plans and does not necessarily override specific deeded rights.

I brought it up because it's fairly clear to me that it would apply to Marriott's new Destination Club (Marriott probably has to balance the laws that pertain to the deeded owners with those that apply to the DC).  Once a deeded owner elects to move his/her usage to the DC, who knows how that truly affects the actual reservation rights of the remaining deeded owners.  I know that I wouldn't simply take Marriott's word for it that they're going to allocate inventory fairly.  It doesn't really make sense to do that when the option to convert to points expires long past prime reservation dates for a given usage year.  

It's also clear to me that a bunch of Florida legislators don't sit around thinking up these laws by themselves .... they're spoon-fed by the big developers.  And, under those circumstances, one can pretty much figure out who ultimately benefits.


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## Fredm (Aug 5, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> Yes, Fred -- you're correct.  It has to do with multi-site timeshare plans and does not necessarily override specific deeded rights.
> 
> I brought it up because it's fairly clear to me that it would apply to Marriott's new Destination Club (Marriott probably has to balance the laws that pertain to the deeded owners with those that apply to the DC).  Once a deeded owner elects to move his/her usage to the DC, who knows how that truly affects the actual reservation rights of the remaining deeded owners.  I know that I wouldn't simply take Marriott's word for it that they're going to allocate inventory fairly.  It doesn't really make sense to do that when the option to convert to points expires long past prime reservation dates for a given usage year.
> 
> It's also clear to me that a bunch of Florida legislators don't sit around thinking up these laws by themselves .... they're spoon-fed by the big developers.  And, under those circumstances, one can pretty much figure out who ultimately benefits.



That's what I thought. 

We know that administering inventory is a "black box" process. Not a simplistic one-in one-out matter. "Anticipating" is the catch all for how it is really accomplished. 

My primary concern rests with legacy owner home resort reservation rights. I don't trust the management of the rest of it (except the goal of optimizing the exchange process). 

I agree with you about the lobbyists who hang around the legislature. The rest of us don't have a chance.


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## jerseygirl (Aug 5, 2010)

Fredm said:


> I agree with you about the lobbyists who hang around the legislature. The rest of us don't have a chance.



That's for sure!


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