# Mexico Crime



## davidvel (May 14, 2018)

There are many threads on TUG about crime in Mexico, statistics comparing the worst parts of the U.S. for murders (St. Louis, Detroit, Chicago, etc) to Mexico. People post about drug shootings in or near resort areas, and others respond that this does not affect tourists. Some state that it's safer in Mexico than in many areas of the U.S. based upon those statistics. 

All this data aside, what scares people are the stories about the heinous depravity that occurs south of the border. Despite our horrific inner city murder problem, you don't usually hear of bodies being melted in acid and routine decapitations here (NCIS, and Criminal Minds episodes aside). And generally, the authorities perform a reasonably diligent, professional investigation that is not controlled by narco interests.   From just one news article, which is symbolic of thousands more: 

Last month, Mexican rapper Christian Omar Palma Gutierrez’ confessed to dissolving the bodies of three film students in acid at the behest of a drug cartel.   
Two European bicyclists found dead in a ravine in southern Mexico were robbed and murdered

Chmielewski, 37, was shot in the head and found on April 26 about 130 feet below the road he’d been traveling on. 
Hagenbusch, 43, likely died from a head wound sustained during a beating and wasn’t discovered until May 4.

*Authorities initially blamed the victims, saying they lost control and fell off the cliff. *They also claimed there were no signs of foul play. [Sounds a lot like the drunk kids that drowned in the pool.]

But after Hagenbusch’s brother went to Mexico to identify his sibling’s body, he learned Chmielewski “was decapitated and had a foot missing."


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## easyrider (May 14, 2018)

If a person has never been to Mexico, the reports of crime, sickness, corruption , death, kidnapping and all other bad news, combined with the language barrier and sanitation problems, are reasons not to ever go to Mexico.

When a person has been to Mexico, they just know better. 

Bill


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## bogey21 (May 14, 2018)

At one time I lived in Mexico City and have visited  friends who live in San Miguel.  I never found crime to be a problem at either.  On the other hand I stayed away from high crime areas just as I did when I lived in St Louis and avoided East St Louis like the plague.

George


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## buzglyd (May 14, 2018)

I wish there was a dead horse icon.

If you're afraid to go, DON'T GO!

BTW, I'm flying to Los Cabos this afternoon. Fishing tomorrow!


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## VacationForever (May 14, 2018)

buzglyd said:


> I wish there was a dead horse icon.
> 
> If you're afraid to go, DON'T GO!
> 
> BTW, I'm flying to Los Cabos this afternoon. Fishing tomorrow!


Very true.  We love Westin Lagunamar and the restaurants around that property in Cancun but we have nixed that in the foreseeable future.  Dead horse does not need to be beaten again.


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## Passepartout (May 14, 2018)

buzglyd said:


> I wish there was a dead horse icon.


Used to be one in the 'old' TUG, but after the change to the new software, it disappeared. I miss it too.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (May 14, 2018)

You can use the image tag to the same effect.


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## bbodb1 (May 14, 2018)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> You can use the image tag to the same effect.


Though the dead creature looks a bit like a crustacean in addition to a horse....


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## dioxide45 (May 14, 2018)

davidvel said:


> There are many threads on TUG about crime in Mexico, statistics comparing the worst parts of the U.S. for murders (St. Louis, Detroit, Chicago, etc) to Mexico. People post about drug shootings in or near resort areas, and others respond that this does not affect tourists. Some state that it's safer in Mexico than in many areas of the U.S. based upon those statistics.
> 
> All this data aside, what scares people are the stories about the heinous depravity that occurs south of the border. Despite our horrific inner city murder problem, you don't usually hear of bodies being melted in acid and routine decapitations here (NCIS, and Criminal Minds episodes aside). And generally, the authorities perform a reasonably diligent, professional investigation that is not controlled by narco interests.   From just one news article, which is symbolic of thousands more:
> 
> ...


Why didn't you add this to the existing thread instead of starting a new one?

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/is-cancun-safe-for-travel-in-2018.273916/


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## TravelTime (May 15, 2018)

davidvel said:


> All this data aside, what scares people are the stories about the heinous depravity that occurs south of the border. Despite our horrific inner city murder problem, you don't usually hear of bodies being melted in acid and routine decapitations here (NCIS, and Criminal Minds episodes aside).



Davidel makes a good point. I think this is the difference between most crime and murder in the USA and other developed countries compared to Mexico. If you read the Mexico News Daily https://mexiconewsdaily.com there are stories everyday about a depraved murder or robbery to innocent victims, not just narco violence. 

This is one of the most disgusting stories I have read:
https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/victim-had-no-money-so-thieves-cut-off-his-hand/

There is a lot of extreme, useless violence in Mexico. The thieves did not need to cut off the victim's hand.

I agree with others that the probability of this happening to you if you stay in your hotel or resort compound on vacation in Mexico is small. Don't leave the hotel zone or explore outside the tourist areas and you should be fine.


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## VacationForever (May 15, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Davidel makes a good point. I think this is the difference between most crime and murder in the USA and other developed countries compared to Mexico. If you read the Mexico News Daily https://mexiconewsdaily.com there are stories everyday about a depraved murder or robbery to innocent victims, not just narco violence.
> 
> This is one of the most disgusting stories I have read:
> https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/victim-had-no-money-so-thieves-cut-off-his-hand/
> ...


While I agree with you, don't forget MS-13 brutality is all over the world, including right here in the US.  The main thing is not to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## klpca (May 15, 2018)

Those reports are gruesome but I think that they are a better warning for people who *live* in Mexico vs those who stay in the hotel zone for a week, i.e. "Mexican timesharing", as this forum is about.

I absolutely agree with Buzz, if you don't want to go, then don't go. If you don't want *me* to go, well then thanks for the concern, but my firsthand experience tells me that I am fine to visit a Mexican timeshare.


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## TravelTime (May 15, 2018)

klpca said:


> Those reports are gruesome but I think that they are a better warning for people who *live* in Mexico vs those who stay in the hotel zone for a week, i.e. "Mexican timesharing", as this forum is about.
> 
> I absolutely agree with Buzz, if you don't want to go, then don't go. If you don't want *me* to go, well then thanks for the concern, but my firsthand experience tells me that I am fine to visit a Mexican timeshare.



You should be safe if you stay in your Mexican timeshare and do not wander off to explore how the locals live or drive across Mexico to explore other towns or make a mistake and drive on the wrong streets. We want you to go and enjoy yourself in your timeshare.

I think it is fair for folks reading the Mexico forum to be aware of what is going on in Mexico. It is very cheap to travel to/in Mexico. Maybe tourists should care more about what is happening to the Mexican people. I see this as a human rights issue for the Mexican people. It is very unfair that tourists get special security because the Mexicans want their money, while the locals are scared and suffering. Every time I read someone commenting that the violence is outside the hotel zones, I cringe at how insensitive this is to the Mexican people who live outside the hotel zones.


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## klpca (May 15, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> You should be safe if you stay in your Mexican timeshare and do not wander off to explore how the locals live or drive across Mexico to explore other towns or make a mistake and drive on the wrong streets. We want you to go and enjoy yourself in your timeshare.
> 
> I think it is fair for folks reading the Mexico forum to be aware of what is going on in Mexico. It is very cheap to travel to/in Mexico. Maybe tourists should care more about what is happening to the Mexican people. I see this as a human rights issue for the Mexican people. It is very unfair that tourists get special security because the Mexicans want their money, while the locals are scared and suffering. Every time I read someone commenting that the violence is outside the hotel zones, I cringe at how insensitive this is to the Mexican people who live outside the hotel zones.


What the Mexican people are being forced to live with is absolutely unconscionable. However, I'm not sure that staying away would help them at all. I don't mind people sharing some information to make everyone's trip safer, but after a while it's the same information shared over and over and it just makes me wonder what the point is?


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## TravelTime (May 15, 2018)

Some Tuggers have said if you don't feel comfortable going to Mexico, then don't go but don't try to tell them where to go (although no one has told anyone not to go so not sure where that came from).

In the same vein, if Tuggers do not want to read about crime in Mexico, then they do not need to read the threads on this topic. Frankly I find it interesting. I would be interested in a thread on crime in any place I am considering visiting or go to frequently.

Even after many visits to Mexico, I was unaware of the murder rate, crime and cartel problems in Mexico until December when we were in Cabo. We learned that the day before our arrival, the cartel murdered and hung several dead men off a bridge or overpass between the airport and the tourist zone. If we had been there one day earlier, we might have seen the dead men hanging. I was told the cartel was trying to send a message to the government and scare tourists away.

I was unaware of the problems in Cancun until April of this year. I thought Cancun/Riviera Maya was completely safe. I had just been there in January and had no clue about the risks. A girlfriend and I rented a car and drove all over by ourselves.

So, these threads are helpful because I was unaware of the risks in Mexico since most people who visit keep saying it is completely safe as long as you stay in the tourist zones.

Frankly, I thought the rhetoric is the USA about Mexico was all BS until recently. Now I see there is a basis in fact, although the risks are exaggerated for tourists who stay in the hotel zones. But to say that tourists have not been affected is false.


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## klpca (May 15, 2018)

Fair enough. I didn't realize that it wasn't common knowledge. Maybe it's because I live near the border, but it's been on my radar for a long time. Mexico has always been risky to visitors. My mother's cousin died in Baja back in the 70's in a drunk driving accident. (He was the drunk driver). It took months and about $10k to get his body back. So for years, we avoided Mexico at all costs.


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## Egret1986 (May 15, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I was unaware of the problems in Cancun until April of this year. I thought Cancun/Riviera Maya was completely safe. I had just been there in January and had no clue about the risks. A girlfriend and I rented a car and drove all over by ourselves.
> 
> So, these threads are helpful because I was unaware of the risks in Mexico since most people who visit keep saying it is completely safe as long as you stay in the tourist zones.



Like you, I was also unaware of the problems in Cancun.  I also thought it was safe.  We took our first Cancun trip in January.  We did not rent a car.  We took tours to go places.  We loved the resort where we stayed and felt little need to venture out on our own.  The people were remarkable at the resort and every where we went on tours.  I would have gladly returned in a heart beat.  However, now knowing that there are problems in Cancun as well, we'll skip returning in the foreseeable future.  There's just so many places yet unexplored that we can move on to something else.  The Mexican people exude warmth and hospitality.  That was my biggest take-away from that trip.

Yes, crime can happen anywhere.  Some of it's "luck of the draw."  Live life!  Make an informed decision.  Go there or go somewhere else.  Just get out and go.  

I don't believe anyone's telling others not to go.  I believe it's just sharing information, expressing personal concerns and creating a dialogue to "talk it out."

I appreciate the warnings, even if they pop up often.  It's my choice if I choose to read the thread or not.  Remember, folks, Knowledge is Power!    Most stuff on TUG is redundant because there's always "fresh" interest on topics and things are always changing.

We have gone places in the US and outside where bad things could have happened to us.  You can't let fear cripple you.......just make the best informed decision that you can for yourself.  That's all we can do really. 

Now get out there......somewhere.......anywhere!   Enjoy!


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## PigsDad (May 15, 2018)

Egret1986 said:


> I don't believe anyone's telling others not to go.  I believe it's just sharing information, expressing personal concerns and creating a dialogue to "talk it out."


I have no problem with people sharing unbiased information. Unfortunately, in some cases it is people sharing sensationalized "news" articles, just adding to the over-hyped hysteria.  This ends up negatively affecting the majority of Mexican people who "exude warmth and hospitality", to use your words.  Sad.

Kurt


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## Egret1986 (May 15, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> Unfortunately, in some cases it is people sharing sensationalized "news" articles, just adding to the over-hyped hysteria.



Who can positively identify in every instance what's sensationalized?  Without going political, fake news is out there everywhere.  

What's a person to do?  Stick their head in the sand and believe nothing?  Try to maneuver around the hype and glean some views, thoughts and opinions from other like-minded folks (Tuggers) to better make a personal decision?  Should the opinions shared by the for Mexico only be considered?  It's not all over-hyped hysteria?  It helps to be aware of things that might otherwise not have been found in researching an area for travel.   Hard to believe?.....It could happen.


Best wishes to all for your continued happiness wherever you choose to go for vacation, whether it's north, south, east or west.


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## klpca (May 15, 2018)

Egret1986 said:


> Who can positively identify in every instance what's sensationalized?  Without going political, fake news is out there everywhere.
> 
> What's a person to do?  Stick their head in the sand and believe nothing?  Try to maneuver around the hype and glean some views, thoughts and opinions from other like-minded folks (Tuggers) to better make a personal decision?  Should the opinions shared by the for Mexico only be considered?  It's not all over-hyped hysteria?  It helps to be aware of things that might otherwise not have been found in researching an area for travel.   Hard to believe?.....It could happen.
> 
> ...


I joined some facebook groups for Cozumel to get better information before our last trip and signed up for the State Dept information updates. For me personally, I will trust what the State Dept says. If they say that it's ok to go, then we will go. Just a suggestion for anyone who is considering travel to Mexico, or anywhere for that matter.


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## TravelTime (May 15, 2018)

My thoughts on these Mexico crime threads is that people who own timeshares in Mexico are defending Mexico out of self interest. I think it is sad that people want to put their head in the sand. Even if tourists are generally not the crime victims, the crime and murder rates in Mexico are out of control and many innocent people are being robbed, beat up, amputated and/or murdered. 2017 was the worst year for crime and murder in Mexico and 2018 might be worse based on the preliminary numbers in some states.


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## dioxide45 (May 15, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> My thoughts on these Mexico crime threads is that people who own timeshares in Mexico are defending Mexico out of self interest. I think it is sad that people want to put their head in the sand. Even if tourists are generally not the crime victims, the crime and murder rates in Mexico are out of control and many innocent people are being robbed, beat up, amputated and/or murdered. 2017 was the worst year for crime and murder in Mexico and 2018 might be worse based on the preliminary numbers in some states.


It comes down to, neither side will ever convince the other.


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## PigsDad (May 15, 2018)

Egret1986 said:


> Who can positively identify in every instance what's sensationalized?  Without going political, fake news is out there everywhere.
> 
> What's a person to do?  Stick their head in the sand and believe nothing?



[redacted]

Forget it.  It is clear critical thinking is dead these days.  Very sad.

Kurt


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## DannyTS (May 15, 2018)

the truth of the matter is that if you take basic precaution measures, statistics say that as a tourist you are safe. The rest is just noise. The crime level in places you will never visit as an ordinary tourist by people you will never hang out with are not relevant. Sad, but not relevant.
Stay safe wherever you are.


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## klpca (May 15, 2018)

For the record, we don't own any timeshares in Mexico. We own in CA, New Orleans, Hawaii and Arizona. We just got back from an exchange into Cozumel but due to the world being big, we probably won't be returning to Mexico for a few years.


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## easyrider (May 16, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> My thoughts on these Mexico crime threads is that people who own timeshares in Mexico are defending Mexico out of self interest. I think it is sad that people want to put their head in the sand. Even if tourists are generally not the crime victims, the crime and murder rates in Mexico are out of control and many innocent people are being robbed, beat up, amputated and/or murdered. 2017 was the worst year for crime and murder in Mexico and 2018 might be worse based on the preliminary numbers in some states.



Maybe it is that people who do travel to Mexico, some of us more than others, have a better idea on what is happening in Mexico, than someone who only relies on a few news reports. 

The crime rate against tourists in Mexico is very low, by any similar comparison. To suggest that any of us have our heads in the sands regarding our own personal safety is ludicrous. To make comparisons that are apples to oranges and come up with a solid conclusion is delusional at best.

Bill


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## davidvel (May 16, 2018)

Thanks everyone for their thoughtful commentary and replies. The point of my op was that people's fears of traveling to certain parts of the world is not irrational, despite the high inner city youth on youth, gang on gang murder rate in the U.S. that accounts for most of the deaths from violence in this country.  

The stories about bodies hanging from overpasses, people being dissolved in acid, mass graves, etc. are not fake news, and are not few and far between. I live close to the border, and watch the news both north and south of the border. Yes it is true that you have close to zero chance of these heinous things happening to you as a tourist, yet it is still natural to be fearful when these types of things happen just miles from your resort.  That was really my only point.


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## buzglyd (May 16, 2018)

And it has been discussed in several threads yet you had to give that horse one more beating. 

I live close to the border also. I’m currently in Mexico enjoying myself.


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## davidvel (May 16, 2018)

buzglyd said:


> And it has been discussed in several threads yet you had to give that horse one more beating.
> 
> I live close to the border also. I’m currently in Mexico enjoying myself.


I disagree. Most of the other threads were about crime at specific locations. This thread is a commentary about the statistical comparisons people make in stating that the U.S. is more dangerous  than Mexico, and that resort areas in Mx are safer than some inner city areas of the US, all of which may be true. 

The point being that you don't see the same type of depraved brutality that occurs hourly in Mx in the US, which drives people's overall fear, despite the stats.


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## hurnik (May 16, 2018)

davidvel said:


> I disagree. Most of the other threads were about crime at specific locations. This thread is a commentary about the statistical comparisons people make in stating that the U.S. is more dangerous  than Mexico, and that resort areas in Mx are safer than some inner city areas of the US, all of which may be true.
> 
> The point being that you don't see the same type of depraved brutality that occurs hourly in Mx in the US, which drives people's overall fear, despite the stats.



"Hourly" may be a bit of an overstatement (IMO), although I cannot say for sure without gathering all the factual/statistical data.  But perhaps you have data supporting the "hourly" comment?

There's a lot of depravity that happens here in the US that people don't know about either.  Either the new is "local" (I highly doubt you all heard about the father/uncle or whatever that killed his daughter and put her in a suitcase around here, or the chinese family "murder house", etc.)

Unfortunately there's bad people and bad things that happen all over the place that we're not aware of.

BTW, I have no issue with folks reporting news and stuff that's factual about Mexico or any other spot.  What I find very interesting (not necessarily in this forum because it's Mexico, so I don't expect to hear/see news from other parts of the world), is something like:

On the HGVC Owners FB group, the moderator constantly posts articles how dangerous Mexico is. But only Mexico.  When there was Zika in FL and night club shootings in Miami, there was silence.  (Little did I know that other countries actually advised their citizens to not travel to the US, especially Florida due to violence against LGBT and intolerance against muslims, etc. back in I think 2016).

Personally I think people should be self-informed, but need to make an *educated* decisions.  Example:
Southwest airlines had that issue, now all we see/hear on the news is every time there's a problem on Southwest (or any other plane) now we're aware of it due to the media coverage.  But surprise:  this happens all the time.  But now a bunch of folks are "scared" into not flying because now they *think* it's more unsafe (but yet doesn't stop them from driving in their car where they're far more likely to suffer an accident/fatality).  So you can take the view that because we're "aware" of this now that it's not safe, and you shouldn't fly.  IMO, when you look at the factual data (albeit more difficult to do with foreign entities and even our own US government isn't always right/factual), you'll see that there's not really an uptick on these, it's just the reporting of these in the national media that's increased.  And we see the same when a train derails, etc.

Before my trip to Hawaii there was a rash of drownings (well at least reportings) of snorkelers/etc.  Now does this mean that one shouldn't go into the ocean in Hawaii?  IMO, no.  But some folks took it that way.  Once you delved into the details in the vast majority of cases these were tourists (vs locals), who went into areas they shouldn't have or by themselves, or did "stupid" things.  However, by raising awareness, we took extra precautions and chose to wear life vests (normally I've never worn one when snorkeling unless mandated, but I also never go snorkeling alone).

But this is a free country.  You don't want to fly, then don't (trust me, took like 60+ years to convince my grandmother to fly and when she finally did she was like "oh what was all the fuss about").  You don't want to go to Mexico, don't go.  I don't mean to say this in a rude way, either.  Anyone going to Jamaica?  (LOL)


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## TravelTime (May 16, 2018)

hurnik said:


> But this is a free country.  You don't want to fly, then don't (trust me, took like 60+ years to convince my grandmother to fly and when she finally did she was like "oh what was all the fuss about").  You don't want to go to Mexico, don't go.  I don't mean to say this in a rude way, either.  Anyone going to Jamaica?  (LOL)



I agree. But this extends to reading this thread. If you do not want to read about crime in Mexico, then stop reading and responding to this thread.


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## TravelTime (May 16, 2018)

VacationForever said:


> While I agree with you, don't forget MS-13 brutality is all over the world, including right here in the US.  The main thing is not to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.



Yes, and do you know where the MS-13 gang came from? The violence down south is infiltrating our country.


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## PigsDad (May 17, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I agree. But this extends to reading this thread. If you do not want to read about crime in Mexico, then stop reading and responding to this thread.


How would you feel if all of a sudden there was a ton of over-hyped "news" articles posted on social media about the how dangerous your home city has become?  What if it became so prevalent that people started avoiding your area, local businesses started losing customers, and your neighbors and friends started losing their jobs because people thought these articles indicated that doing business or shopping in your area was more dangerous than it really was?  Even though the articles that were racing through social media were based on some facts, the typical over-hyped articles were written in such a way that made it sound like your whole town was dangerous to visit.  Now, would you feel your town was being treated unfairly by the press and the many people that perpetuate these articles?

This is how many of us feel about the over-hyped articles that are posted about Mexico.  Some of us have friends and family there.  Some of us have met some wonderful people who live there and are heart-broken that their livelihood is threatened by people believing the over-hyped media coverage, making people believe that even the tourist areas are way more dangerous than they really are.

Sorry, but your "_if you do not want to read about crime in Mexico, then stop reading and responding to this thread_" argument is lame, IMO.

Kurt


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## TravelTime (May 17, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> How would you feel if all of a sudden there was a ton of over-hyped "news" articles posted on social media about the how dangerous your home city has become?  What if it became so prevalent that people started avoiding your area, local businesses started losing customers, and your neighbors and friends started losing their jobs because people thought these articles indicated that doing business or shopping in your area was more dangerous than it really was?  Even though the articles that were racing through social media were based on some facts, the typical over-hyped articles were written in such a way that made it sound like your whole town was dangerous to visit.  Now, would you feel your town was being treated unfairly by the press and the many people that perpetuate these articles?
> 
> This is how many of us feel about the over-hyped articles that are posted about Mexico.  Some of us have friends and family there.  Some of us have met some wonderful people who live there and are heart-broken that their livelihood is threatened by people believing the over-hyped media coverage, making people believe that even the tourist areas are way more dangerous than they really are.
> 
> ...



I do not think the media is treating Mexico unfairly. Most of the news is not appearing in the mainstream media. I subscribe to Mexican media to find things out. Mexico is still having record numbers of tourists because most tourists are unaware of what is happening. All we are doing is having a discussion on a thread.


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## Egret1986 (May 17, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> All we are doing is having a discussion on a thread.



 

Yep, that's it.


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## turkel (May 17, 2018)

Clearly for some this discussion should be censored. If your opinion doesn't mirror theirs you are lacking in intelligence or are lame.

I won't comment on the actual topic but to say rudeness, name calling, and disrespect of others doesn't really help sway people's opinion.


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## davidvel (May 17, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> How would you feel if all of a sudden there was a ton of over-hyped "news" articles posted on social media about the how dangerous your home city has become?  What if it became so prevalent that people started avoiding your area, local businesses started losing customers, and your neighbors and friends started losing their jobs because people thought these articles indicated that doing business or shopping in your area was more dangerous than it really was?  Even though the articles that were racing through social media were based on some facts, the typical over-hyped articles were written in such a way that made it sound like your whole town was dangerous to visit.  Now, would you feel your town was being treated unfairly by the press and the many people that perpetuate these articles?
> 
> This is how many of us feel about the over-hyped articles that are posted about Mexico.  Some of us have friends and family there.  Some of us have met some wonderful people who live there and are heart-broken that their livelihood is threatened by people believing the over-hyped media coverage, making people believe that even the tourist areas are way more dangerous than they really are.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what "over-hyped" news articles you are referring to. But if my home town was in the news due to bodies hanging from bridges, students being dissolved in acid by a rapper, and the routine discovery of mass graves and murders of publicly elected officials and candidates, I wouldn't call that over-hyped.


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## PigsDad (May 17, 2018)

davidvel said:


> I'm not sure what "over-hyped" news articles you are referring to. But if my home town was in the news due to bodies hanging from bridges, students being dissolved in acid by a rapper, and the routine discovery of mass graves and murders of publicly elected officials and candidates, I wouldn't call that over-hyped.


Simple example: if those things happened in a small town in northern California, and all the new articles proclaimed or inferred that *ALL *of California (including San Diego) is a dangerous place to be.  That is _*exactly *_what is happening w/ many of the articles regarding Mexico.  And that's what I consider "over-hyped".

Kurt


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## buzglyd (May 17, 2018)

davidvel said:


> I'm not sure what "over-hyped" news articles you are referring to. But if my home town was in the news due to bodies hanging from bridges, students being dissolved in acid by a rapper, and the routine discovery of mass graves and murders of publicly elected officials and candidates, I wouldn't call that over-hyped.



Why do you care so much to start a THIRD thread on this. I’m here now. No issues. I don’t own a timeshare in Mexico. I also don’t try to score coke at 3 am.


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## Egret1986 (May 17, 2018)

turkel said:


> Clearly for some this discussion should be censored. If your opinion doesn't mirror theirs you are lacking in intelligence or are lame.
> 
> I won't comment on the actual topic but to say rudeness, name calling, and disrespect of others doesn't really help sway people's opinion.


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## DannyTS (May 17, 2018)

davidvel said:


> I'm not sure what "over-hyped" news articles you are referring to. But if my home town was in the news due to bodies hanging from bridges, students being dissolved in acid by a rapper, and the routine discovery of mass graves and murders of publicly elected officials and candidates, I wouldn't call that over-hyped.



since you want to spice up your taste buds , please see below the link to an interactive crime map of  San Diego 
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/data-watch/sd-me-sd-crime-summary-20180517-story.html


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## TravelTime (May 18, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> since you want to spice up your taste buds , please see below the link to an interactive crime map of  San Diego
> http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/data-watch/sd-me-sd-crime-summary-20180517-story.html
> 
> View attachment 6648



Imagine if you could find a similar map for Mexico. There would be no empty spaces between the dots. In San Diego this week, at least I don’t see any red dots. Frankly I think it is so silly to compare cities. You’d need to overlay a lot more data on these crimes in San Diego, such as who is engaging in it. From what I understand, many of the Southern California gangs are Mexicans. The gangs we have in Northern California are primarily Mexicans. There are certain neighborhoods in Northern California that have high gang violence from Mexican immigrants (legal and illegal immigrants). There is a lot of crime in California. We have been robbed. We have police monitored alarms on all our properties and offices. I would be the last one to defend the US as safe. It is dangerous too. We live in an affluent neighborhood yet we have a lot of robberies, mostly by people who do not live in our neighborhood. Most people I know have been crime victims of some sort. None of my comments imply that all Mexicans are criminals or everywhere in Mexico is dangerous. Most Mexican people are kind, honest and hardworking, wherever they live. Since the irrelevant topic of violence in San Diego has been introduced into this thread, I am just commenting that California has been infiltrated by many dangerous people of many nationalities including Americans and we have many gang problems and crime too. We also have a problem with entitled illegal immigrants who expect to come to California and receive social services and work without documents. The state is becoming unrecognizable. The outflux of people from California due to all of our problems is huge. Maybe some of you should start new crime threads about other cities in the world. There is a lot of crime all over the world. Europe is becoming dangerous too. And if you want to do a map of sex crimes in the USA, it would be full of green dots - just look at the Me Too movement. Sexual predators are probably working and living next door to all of us, wherever we are. Or maybe some of you are a sexual predator and do not know it and/or admit it. LOL This is a thread about crime in Mexico but feel free to start a new thread about crime in other parts of the world and post your findings in the correct sections of TUG. (By the way, I am Hispanic and speak Spanish.)


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## Egret1986 (May 18, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> Frankly I think it is so silly to compare cities.
> 
> This is a thread about crime in Mexico but feel free to start a new thread about crime in other parts of the world and post your findings in the correct sections of TUG. (By the way, I am Hispanic and speak Spanish.)





This thread is about crime in Mexico.  We all know crime is everywhere including the US.  Why the need to get off topic to try and make a point about crime IN Mexico?  Sure crime exists in San Diego.  Shouldn't that be another thread if you want to discuss that topic?  This is the Mexico Timesharing Forum, where folks are looking for information on Mexico.


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## DannyTS (May 18, 2018)

I brought up San Diego because davidvel lives there (according to his profile info) and because he made reference to his home city.

By the way, I live in Canada in one of the safest large cities in North America, in one of the safest neighborhoods of my city. When away we had large packages delivered, they were left at the front door of the house (no fence)  for days without anyone touching them. Kids left the garage door open for hours? No problem at all. When kids play on our street, cars ostentatiously stop 10-15 m away until everyone is on the side.  I can go on an on but you get the picture.

I realize that this is not the case everywhere in North America and some are more sensitive about this issue and about Mexican crime in particular. Otherwise i do not see a reason to keep on going about this topic. Yet, I believe that if you respect common sense safety features when you travel to Cancun or Riviera Maya you will be safe. I have traveled to parts of the world where I felt less safe than the parts of Mexico I have visited. It is all about understanding the risks of the circumstances you are in.


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## davidvel (May 18, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> since you want to spice up your taste buds , please see below the link to an interactive crime map of  San Diego
> http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/data-watch/sd-me-sd-crime-summary-20180517-story.html
> 
> View attachment 6648


I think the types of crimes you don't  see on that map makes my point very well.


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## DannyTS (May 18, 2018)

davidvel said:


> I think the types of crimes you don't  see on that map makes my point very well.



No doubt that the rapes and attempted murders  in just those 5 days make your point as well. There might have been one just around the corner in the last 5 days, but who cares since you did not know about it. Please do not look at that map.


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## easyrider (May 18, 2018)

Realistically, there really is only the perception of violence to tourists in Mexico. The perception exists because of the violence in Mexico from gang activity that is considered by most to be a drug war between cartels.

The reality is tourists, like over 22 million, go to Mexico each year without any problem of violence.

This thread illustrates the "perception versus reality paradox". 

Bill


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## TravelTime (May 18, 2018)

easyrider said:


> Realistically, there really is only the perception of violence to tourists in Mexico. The perception exists because of the violence in Mexico from gang activity that is considered by most to be a drug war between cartels.
> 
> The reality is tourists, like over 22 million, go to Mexico each year without any problem of violence.
> 
> ...



Frankly, I think this comparing to the USA and minimizing of crime in Mexico is unhelpful. If someone wants to post about a crime topic in Mexico, and give examples of things happening down there, what is wrong with that? When bad things happen in my very upscale town in California, I want to know. Murders in my town are rare but we had a violent burglary and murder a few years ago in a $20 million mansion. We have burglaries, car break-ins and crime all the time here and this is one of the safest and richest cities in the USA. I am on my guard in the USA too. We set our alarm when we leave. No where is safe anymore. I do not understand why Tuggers get upset when we discuss crime in Mexico. I agree with the OP that the crime I hear about in Mexico is generally pretty gruesome and can be barbaric. But it's good to know. Crime is a worldwide problem and when it happens in the USA, it makes news and scares people too. Even if the percentage is small, people get scared. So I do not see this as being anti-Mexico. It is just a discussion and bringing awareness to a problem that Mexico is having.

P.S. Actually, now that I think about it, my "safe" small town has had two major murder incidents in the past 10 years. I like to know all the details about these incidents.


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## bankr63 (May 18, 2018)

So realistically, is anyone worried about travelling to the EU?

Seems to me that most of the violence in Mexico is gang on gang, cartel to cartel, and yes, tourists are very occasionally a victim or collateral damage.  But what about EU where most of the terrorist attacks seem to be aimed at popular tourist destinations at busy times?  (London, the Christmas Markets, etc).  Mexico doesn't target the tourists, terrorism often is directed at tourists. 

I am more worried about visiting the classic sites in Europe than I am about travelling to Mexico.


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## VacationForever (May 18, 2018)

bankr63 said:


> So realistically, is anyone worried about travelling to the EU?
> 
> Seems to me that most of the violence in Mexico is gang on gang, cartel to cartel, and yes, tourists are very occasionally a victim or collateral damage.  But what about EU where most of the terrorist attacks seem to be aimed at popular tourist destinations at busy times?  (London, the Christmas Markets, etc).  Mexico doesn't target the tourists, terrorism often is directed at tourists.
> 
> I am more worried about visiting the classic sites in Europe than I am about travelling to Mexico.


Anywhere one decides to go you take your chances.  We were in Europe last Spring and this Spring and will be there again next Spring. Europe is a large continent.  Saying Europe is dangerous is like saying it is dangerous to be in the USA.


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## davidvel (May 18, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> No doubt that the rapes and attempted murders  in just those 5 days make your point as well. There might have been one just around the corner in the last 5 days, but who cares since you did not know about it. Please do not look at that map.


I don't see any attempted murders, nor any rapes, as the data is not that granular. There may have been some in this time frame, but we can't tell from this map. And there are no murders shown. But, don't worry, I'm very aware of the number and types of crimes that occur in my area of town. 

All that being said, the map *does* help make my point, which was not whether Mexico tourist areas are safer than U.S. inner cities, or elsewhere. My point, as Bill notes above, is that people's _perception_ of crime in Mexico is driven more by the (accurate) "stories about the heinous depravity that occurs south of the border," than the raw numbers and data. Bodies being melted in acid, routine decapitations, murder of politicians will tend to scare people, despite the fact that tourists are rarely involved.


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## DannyTS (May 18, 2018)

davidvel said:


> I don't see any attempted murders, nor any rapes, as the data is not that granular. There may have been some in this time frame, but we can't tell from this map. And there are no murders shown. But, don't worry, I'm very aware of the number and types of crimes that occur in my area of town.
> 
> All that being said, the map *does* help make my point, which was not whether Mexico tourist areas are safer than U.S. inner cities, or elsewhere. My point, as Bill notes above, is that people's _perception_ of crime in Mexico is driven more by the (accurate) "stories about the heinous depravity that occurs south of the border," than the raw numbers and data. Bodies being melted in acid, routine decapitations, murder of politicians will tend to scare people, despite the fact that tourists are rarely involved.



To be clear, i have been to San Diego and it is a wonderful  and (probably) very safe city. In general I agree with you about what happens in Mexico. 

But we are on TUG, a community that shares information about TS resorts so I do not agree with the attempt to make people fear  travelling to brand name resorts in Cancun or Riviera Maya (I have not been to the West coast). All evidence shows that you are safe.


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## easyrider (May 18, 2018)

The people who believe that going to Mexico isn't a good idea for them are actually 100% right. 

The people that believe that going to Mexico is a good idea for them are actually 100% right. 

Everyone has a comfort level and some peoples comfort level regarding brutality in crime to any group is very low. 

Many people, like 22 million a year, do go to Mexico each year and have no problem with crime. This is one big reason to feel safe from crime in Mexico. Someday, if tourists become the actual targets of the cartels, I might change my mind. The comparison of cartel victims who are actually cartel members to all other groups in Mexico is based on something other than rational thoughts, imo.

Bill


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## turkel (May 19, 2018)

bankr63 said:


> So realistically, is anyone worried about travelling to the EU?
> 
> Seems to me that most of the violence in Mexico is gang on gang, cartel to cartel, and yes, tourists are very occasionally a victim or collateral damage.  But what about EU where most of the terrorist attacks seem to be aimed at popular tourist destinations at busy times?  (London, the Christmas Markets, etc).  Mexico doesn't target the tourists, terrorism often is directed at tourists.
> 
> I am more worried about visiting the classic sites in Europe than I am about travelling to Mexico.



To be honest....Yes, but this thread isn't about the EU


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## TravelTime (May 19, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> But we are on TUG, a community that shares information about TS resorts so I do not agree with the attempt to make people fear  travelling to brand name resorts in Cancun or Riviera Maya (I have not been to the West coast).



This is quite an accusation. I do not think anyone is attempting to make people fear traveling to brand name resorts in Cancun or Riviera Maya. Where did you get this idea? This thread was supposed to just be discussing crime in Mexico. I have not seen any attempt to create fear or any criticism of the brand name resorts (or any specific resorts) on this thread.


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## TravelTime (May 19, 2018)

bankr63 said:


> So realistically, is anyone worried about travelling to the EU?
> 
> Seems to me that most of the violence in Mexico is gang on gang, cartel to cartel, and yes, tourists are very occasionally a victim or collateral damage.  But what about EU where most of the terrorist attacks seem to be aimed at popular tourist destinations at busy times?  (London, the Christmas Markets, etc).  Mexico doesn't target the tourists, terrorism often is directed at tourists.
> 
> I am more worried about visiting the classic sites in Europe than I am about travelling to Mexico.



Yes, I am worried about traveling to Europe because of all the terrorism in tourist destinations. We actually stopped going to Europe because of all the terrorism and shifted to traveling to Mexico because we thought it was safer...until we learned Mexico is experiencing record murder rates and barbaric crime. But this is not a thread about terrorism in Europe. Maybe you can start one in the European thread.


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## DannyTS (May 19, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> This is quite an accusation. I do not think anyone is attempting to make people fear traveling to brand name resorts in Cancun or Riviera Maya. Where did you get this idea?



Then you should state that it is safe to visit brand name resorts in Cancun or Riviera Maya.


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## RX8 (May 19, 2018)

I haven’t been to Mexico in years. I really don’t have much interest in going back. For me it isn’t just about the violent crime. Corruption is rampant. We flew into Mexico with a group of clients. An airport official tried to shake us down for a “group tax”.  We spent way too much time arguing against this fee. We were eventually allowed to leave without paying but was told next time we had to pay it. Fun times.


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## TravelTime (May 19, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Then you should state that it is safe to visit brand name resorts in Cancun or Riviera Maya.



I have gone further than that. I have said as long as tourists stay in the hotel zone, they are likely to be safe. I think they are generally safe regardless of whether it is a brand name or non-brand name hotel. I think tourists are very safe in the luxury Mexican compounds because they have the most security - like Vidanta, Pueblo Bonito and other similar huge, heavily guarded resort compounds. I suspect the huge Mexican hotel conglomerates are safest because they have layers of security to get in and they know the culture and how Mexico works. They tend to be located in hard to reach beaches where it might be less likely that strangers would just stroll in from the beach. They have security at all the entrances and question even guests when they walk in from the beach. I have stayed in Vidanta's compound in Nuevo Vallarta and Pueblo Bonito's compound at Sunset Beach in Cabo. It is very difficult to get in because the Mexicans run their compounds like clock work. They have several check points and security all over. When I stayed at the Intercontinental in Cancun, I felt less safe because they did not have much security. It was very easy to walk in from the front of the hotel or from the beach. However, the Intercontinental in Cozumel felt very safe because it was more like a compound and very hard to get through the checkpoints and it does not share a beach with other hotels or have walk by traffic on the beach.


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## Carol C (May 19, 2018)

bankr63 said:


> So realistically, is anyone worried about travelling to the EU?
> 
> Seems to me that most of the violence in Mexico is gang on gang, cartel to cartel, and yes, tourists are very occasionally a victim or collateral damage.  But what about EU where most of the terrorist attacks seem to be aimed at popular tourist destinations at busy times?  (London, the Christmas Markets, etc).  Mexico doesn't target the tourists, terrorism often is directed at tourists.
> 
> I am more worried about visiting the classic sites in Europe than I am about travelling to Mexico.



OK then...time to start another separate topic on crime in Europe.


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## TravelTime (May 19, 2018)

Carol C said:


> OK then...time to start another separate topic on crime in Europe.



Ha, Ha...LOL


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## Carol C (May 19, 2018)

RX8 said:


> I haven’t been to Mexico in years. I really don’t have much interest in going back. For me it isn’t just about the violent crime. Corruption is rampant. We flew into Mexico with a group of clients. An airport official tried to shake us down for a “group tax”.  We spent way too much time arguing against this fee. We were eventually allowed to leave without paying but was told next time we had to pay it. Fun times.



Yes the culture of corruption and rampant bribery is beyond irritating. Also crimes that go unsolved or punished. British pop artist Kristy MacColl was run over and killed by a speedboat some years ago. This was in the marked safe snorkel zone on my beloved Cozumel. The partiers on the boat were powerful family in the Yucatan...and they got some poor Mexican guy to take the fall. A two year prison sentence for the crime morphed into payola... a small fine was paid.  Kirsty was on vacation with two sons she pushed out of the way...they had to see their mom get mowed down by that boat. So sad...hard for me to forget this incident and I will forgive Mexican people because many locals came to the rescue that day. In general they are family people. Such is life in Mexico.


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## davidvel (May 19, 2018)

The reason I started this thread separate from the "is it safe?" threads was because this is not intended to be a "Is it safe to go to ...." thread. I was trying to point out why so many people may have fears of traveling to Mexico based upon factors other than the pure statistics: corruption, depravity of the particular crimes, untrusted police investigation, etc.

I'd appreciate it if you'd please put the general "is it safe?" comments elsewhere, if you could.


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## Egret1986 (May 19, 2018)

easyrider said:


> The people who believe that going to Mexico isn't a good idea for them are actually 100% right.
> 
> The people that believe that going to Mexico is a good idea for them are actually 100% right.
> 
> Bill



Well said.  There's no right or wrong.  Let folks share information (whether positive or negative), so they can make the decision that is right for them.  We're all different with different tolerance levels.


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## TravelTime (May 19, 2018)

davidvel said:


> The reason I started this thread separate from the "is it safe?" threads was because this is not intended to be a "Is it safe to go to ...." thread. I was trying to point out why so many people may have fears of traveling to Mexico based upon factors other than the pure statistics: corruption, depravity of the particular crimes, untrusted police investigation, etc.
> 
> I'd appreciate it if you'd please put the general "is it safe?" comments elsewhere, if you could.



I totally understand your point and understood your initial point in your first post. However, this topic inevitably leads to "Is it safe..." comments. Can you clarify a bit more about what kind of discussion you were hoping to have?


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## ottawasquaw (May 20, 2018)

easyrider said:


> If a person has never been to Mexico, the reports of crime, sickness, corruption , death, kidnapping and all other bad news, combined with the language barrier and sanitation problems, are reasons not to ever go to Mexico.
> 
> When a person has been to Mexico, they just know better.
> 
> Bill


This will be your opinion until you personally have a situation that changes your mind, and that's ok. 

I am deeply troubled by the first hand reports I receive. The fact that 2 priests or has it been 3 murdered in the last month? I guess that makes it local on local crime. I know people who own T/S in MX and won't be returning. Actually every US Citizen that I know who has personally experienced crime in MX have chosen not to return. Some were in resorts. Some were their for humanitarian reasons.

AZ has suffered a lose in tourism in recent years a couple of times due to reports, policies and boycotting. Policies were changed. We depend on our visitors. Would MX work to improve if they felt a similar economic lose?


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## davidvel (May 20, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I totally understand your point and understood your initial point in your first post. However, this topic inevitably leads to "Is it safe..." comments. Can you clarify a bit more about what kind of discussion you were hoping to have?


I am not sure exactly, but I just wanted to give a perspective other than just the raw statistics. There are lots of comments in threads to the effect of "why are people scared, when its more dangerous in the U.S.?" I think there have been a lot of good comments and discussion in this thread. I also know it will inevitably get back to the "It's safer in the tourist areas than in the middle of Chicago..." Nothing I can do about that.

To me, it's an interesting thing how people compartmentalize the brutal violence and corruption into a separate bucket, but I certainly understand why. To simply state that the statistics support that Mexico is safer ignores a big part of people's fears, which are not necessarily irrational.


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2018)

davidvel said:


> I am not sure exactly, but I just wanted to give a perspective other than just the raw statistics. There are lots of comments in threads to the effect of "why are people scared, when its more dangerous in the U.S.?" I think there have been a lot of good comments and discussion in this thread. I also know it will inevitably get back to the "It's safer in the tourist areas than in the middle of Chicago..." Nothing I can do about that.
> 
> To me, it's an interesting thing how people compartmentalize the brutal violence and corruption into a separate bucket, but I certainly understand why. To simply state that the statistics support that Mexico is safer ignores a big part of people's fears, which are not necessarily irrational.



Totally agree!!!


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## DannyTS (May 20, 2018)

ottawasquaw said:


> This will be your opinion until you personally have a situation that changes your mind, and that's ok.
> 
> 
> AZ has suffered a lose in tourism in recent years a couple of times due to reports, policies and boycotting. Policies were changed. We depend on our visitors. Would MX work to improve if they felt a similar economic lose?



The drug lords live in their own world and have completely different motives than regular folks so it is hard to see a tourism boycott having any impact. 

Admit it or not, things would be different in Mexico if money from drugs sold North of the border were not pouring in.


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2018)

What bugs me about these threads is it seems like Tuggers only care about Tugger (tourist) safety. It seems quite self interested.


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## klpca (May 20, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> What bugs me about these threads is it seems like Tuggers only care about Tugger (tourist) safety. It seems quite self interested.


Who says we only care about tourist safety? On TUG, I'm pretty timeshare-centric. Our church does outreach in Tijuana as well as an outreach for migrants living in the canyons in our own community. Any further and this will surely get political. I'm just saying that this message board is a small snapshot of anyone's life.


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## Eric B (May 20, 2018)

Hmmm; if the focus of a thread isn't supposed to be tourist/tugger related, shouldn't it be in the tug lounge forum rather than the Mexico timesharing one?  While there is a wealth of stuff we could speak about regarding things that happen or socio-economic issues in a place, if they don't actually affect timesharing or tourism in that place, there may be a more appropriate forum to discuss them in.  Otherwise they seem like red herrings that distract from the purpose of the forum.


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2018)

klpca said:


> Who says we only care about tourist safety? On TUG, I'm pretty timeshare-centric. Our church does outreach in Tijuana as well as an outreach for migrants living in the canyons in our own community. Any further and this will surely get political. I'm am just saying that this message board is a small snapshot of anyone's life.



This is wonderful. What bugs me is when folks say Mexico is safe for tourists, yet ignore the problems the locals are experiencing. You obviously are not in this category. We may be going to Mazatlan soon, which is in one of the state department's "D0 NOT TRAVEL" states. Our close Mexican friends just invited us to visit them in Mazatlan. I am aware the tourist zone in okay to travel in but the rest of the state is category 4.


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## PigsDad (May 20, 2018)

Eric B said:


> Hmmm; if the focus of a thread isn't supposed to be tourist/tugger related, shouldn't it be in the tug lounge forum rather than the Mexico timesharing one?  While there is a wealth of stuff we could speak about regarding things that happen or socio-economic issues in a place, if they don't actually affect timesharing or tourism in that place, there may be a more appropriate forum to discuss them in.  Otherwise they seem like red herrings that distract from the purpose of the forum.


Well said.  TUG was not intended to be a forum to discuss social, political or religious issues.  It is the *Timeshare* Users Forum.  Getting "bugged" about people not being up in arms about some social issue not related to timesharing seems like wasted effort here.  I'm sure there are plenty of other places to discuss those issues.

Kurt


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2018)

Eric B said:


> Hmmm; if the focus of a thread isn't supposed to be tourist/tugger related, shouldn't it be in the tug lounge forum rather than the Mexico timesharing one?  While there is a wealth of stuff we could speak about regarding things that happen or socio-economic issues in a place, if they don't actually affect timesharing or tourism in that place, there may be a more appropriate forum to discuss them in.  Otherwise they seem like red herrings that distract from the purpose of the forum.



I think these Mexican crime threads have degenerated into nonsense at this point. It does not matter if they are posted in Mexico or TUG Lounge, IMO. Frankly, the Mexican thread seems more relevant than the TUG lounge. The TUG lounge appears to be a lot of miscellaneous with no real relevance. Just a bunch of interesting threads, which I think is great. The TUG lounge is fun!


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> Well said.  TUG was not intended to be a forum to discuss social, political or religious issues.  It is the *Timeshare* Users Forum.  Getting "bugged" about people not being up in arms about some social issue not related to timesharing seems like wasted effort here.  I'm sure there are plenty of other places to discuss those issues.
> 
> Kurt



Isn't crime in a certain place relevant to owning or visiting a location, whether it is a timeshare or not? I am very pro-Mexico, yet I like to be up to date on what is happening in Mexico - and all over the world.


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## PigsDad (May 20, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> This is wonderful. What bugs me is when folks say Mexico is safe for tourists, yet ignore the problems the locals are experiencing.


Just curious -- how is that any different that a thread assuring people it is safe to travel to Chicago, yet ignoring the rampant crime and murder rate in parts of Chicago?  Would you be bugged about that as well?  Why or why not?

Kurt


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2018)

My Mexican friend recently bought 2 acres of oceanfront land in Mazatlan. He is excited to show it to us. Whether I am scared or not, I will go! Nothing keeps me from living.


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> Just curious -- how is that any different that a thread assuring people it is safe to travel to Chicago, yet ignoring the rampant crime and murder rate in parts of Chicago?  Would you be bugged about that as well?  Why or why not?
> 
> Kurt



I would be bugged if it degenerated into irrelevance. I think comparing Mexican cities to US cities is nonsense.


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2018)

BTW, I have not seen a post that assures people it is safe to travel to Chicago.


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## klpca (May 20, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> BTW, I have not seen a post that assures people it is safe to travel to Chicago.


No timeshares in Chicago.


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## PigsDad (May 20, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I would be bugged if it degenerated into irrelevance. I think comparing Mexican cities to US cities is nonsense.


So you won't answer the question.  Got it. 

Kurt


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2018)

PigsDad said:


> So you won't answer the question.  Got it.
> 
> Kurt



What is the question?


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## TravelTime (May 20, 2018)

If the question is whether I would be irritated by threads that comment on crime in Chicago, the answer is no. I welcome information that is accurate regarding crime, regardless of where it occurs. I do not live in Chicago so I have no idea about what it is like. I have heard certain parts of Chicago are very dangerous so I would welcome more information about crime in Chicago. I welcome information about crime in my neighborhood, even if it is rare. Crime is everywhere!


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## Eric B (May 20, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I think these Mexican crime threads have degenerated into nonsense at this point. It does not matter if they are posted in Mexico or TUG Lounge, IMO. Frankly, the Mexican thread seems more relevant than the TUG lounge. The TUG lounge appears to be a lot of miscellaneous with no real relevance. Just a bunch of interesting threads, which I think is great. The TUG lounge is fun!



Perhaps it doesn’t matter unless you’re looking for information on tourism or timesharing in Mexico.  If that’s the case, it’s in the wrong place and could be considered a red herring that merely distracts from the purpose of the forum, timesharing and tourism in Mexico.  They have another forum that is full of interesting threads that I think is great, the TUG lounge.  I don’t, however, follow that one because by its nature it isn’t intended to convey information on a single topic I’m interested in, in this case timesharing and tourism in Mexico.  The sole point I’m making is that you could choose to post there instead of here and it would make more sense organizationally and add value rather than distract from this forum’s purpose.


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## Eric B (May 20, 2018)

By the way, I completely agree that they have degenerated into nonsense.


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## Steve Fatula (May 21, 2018)

bankr63 said:


> So realistically, is anyone worried about travelling to the EU?
> 
> Seems to me that most of the violence in Mexico is gang on gang, cartel to cartel, and yes, tourists are very occasionally a victim or collateral damage.  But what about EU where most of the terrorist attacks seem to be aimed at popular tourist destinations at busy times?  (London, the Christmas Markets, etc).  Mexico doesn't target the tourists, terrorism often is directed at tourists.
> 
> I am more worried about visiting the classic sites in Europe than I am about travelling to Mexico.



Sure, I am in Spain and Spain has a level 2 travel advisory, just like England and Mexico. But am I worried or concerned? No. I just follow the recommendations of the state department website as I always have. According to the state department, here in Spain, it can be directed at tourists (terrorism) so in theory should be more dangerous. Of course, one can't predict terrorism and no matter what you do, you could be caught at the wrong place. So, I just make sure I don't put myself into bad situations as much as possible. As far as the people, just like in Mexico, warm and wonderful.


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## DannyTS (May 21, 2018)

Eric B said:


> Hmmm; if the focus of a thread isn't supposed to be tourist/tugger related, shouldn't it be in the tug lounge forum rather than the Mexico timesharing one?  While there is a wealth of stuff we could speak about regarding things that happen or socio-economic issues in a place, if they don't actually affect timesharing or tourism in that place, there may be a more appropriate forum to discuss them in.  Otherwise they seem like red herrings that distract from the purpose of the forum.



This thread definitely belongs to the TUG lounge since it has  nothing to do with how to stay safe when travelling to the Mexican TSs.


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## davidvel (May 21, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> This thread definitely belongs to the TUG lounge since it has  nothing to do with how to stay safe when travelling to the Mexican TSs.


This thread is about people's fears of traveling to Mexico, and the reasons why they have such fears. This is the Mexico Timesharing forum, not the "How to Stay Safe When Traveling to Mexican Timeshares" forum. This thread is about Mexico Timesharing. 

The lounge is about  discussions that don't fit into the other defined forum areas. It's  not a place to hide discussions you don't want to see.


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## Eric B (May 21, 2018)

davidvel said:


> This thread is about people's fears of traveling to Mexico, and the reasons why they have such fears. This is the Mexico Timesharing forum, not the "How to Stay Safe When Traveling to Mexican Timeshares" forum. This thread is about Mexico Timesharing.
> 
> The lounge is about  discussions that don't fit into the other defined forum areas. It's  not a place to hide discussions you don't want to see.



Reasonable minds can, of course, disagree.  In my opinion, this thread is more focused on perceptions of Mexican societal ills than on Mexican timesharing.  I have no objection to the discussion in this thread, but follow the forum it is in to gain information on Mexican timesharing and travel to Mexico.  Perhaps another forum on societal issues would be appropriate; I don’t have an opinion on that.  I am, however, an interested reader of information that falls into the category that strikes me as appropriate for this timesharing forum; other people’s fears of travel doesn’t really seem to fit.  My opinion is that that would be an appropriate topic of discussion for a tourism agency to consider, making it border on a political area, but that’s a matter of judgment.


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## DannyTS (May 21, 2018)

davidvel said:


> This thread is about people's fears of traveling to Mexico, and the reasons why they have such fears. This is the Mexico Timesharing forum, not the "How to Stay Safe When Traveling to Mexican Timeshares" forum. This thread is about Mexico Timesharing.
> 
> The lounge is about  discussions that don't fit into the other defined forum areas. It's  not a place to hide discussions you don't want to see.



Probably due to the fact that you live so close to the border you have more exposure  than the average guy hence the unhealthy attraction to the topic. I still believe that the thread has nothing to do with how millions of tourists experience Mexico. Particularly those that travel to TSs that choose to abide by basic safety rules.
Of course your motives seem very transparent even if you want to dress your comments as scientific curiosity.

You would probably be disturbed by a thread named "Crimes in California" with links to gang crimes in your state. I know, that would be just to test why people feel (un) safe when travelling to CA! By the way, when I went to San Francisco, in certain areas I felt much less safe that the places i visited in Mexico.


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## Steve Fatula (May 21, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> You would probably be disturbed by a thread named "Crimes in California" with links to gang crimes in your state. I know, that would be just to test why people feel (un) safe when travelling to CA! By the way, when I went to San Francisco, in certain areas I felt much less safe that the places i visited in Mexico.



Never felt unsafe in Mexico, and was especially taken care of during 9/11 when we were in Cabo. We had to drive the Baja to get back to the states and walk across the border. Lots of armed Mexican police on the way, no trouble. Of course, that trip was a long time ago but I very much appreciated the hospitality we got.

Regarding California, I take that with a grain of salt also. One time we were at a conference in San Jose. I was looking for places to eat and found a highly rated restaurant. Every local I told was telling me I can't go there, it was too dangerous. So, I of course went. It's San Jose. Sure enough, got there, and the only thing I saw were lots of people from differnet ethnicities, including mine (white). No trouble at all. I took the comments regarding how unsafe it was as being from suburban richer folks who simply did not appreciate being in the city with others unlike them (as that was the crowd at the conference). I grew up in Cleveland Ohio, city. Every group hated every group. If I walked on Hough Avenue at the time, I would not have come home almost certainly. Same thing if I went down to W 25st St. That was not San Jose, or at least the area I was in.  Sometimes, comments from locals, who you might think know more about the area, have to be filtered.


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## easyrider (May 21, 2018)

ottawasquaw said:


> This will be your opinion until you personally have a situation that changes your mind, and that's ok.
> 
> I am deeply troubled by the first hand reports I receive. The fact that 2 priests or has it been 3 murdered in the last month? I guess that makes it local on local crime. I know people who own T/S in MX and won't be returning. Actually every US Citizen that I know who has personally experienced crime in MX have chosen not to return. Some were in resorts. Some were their for humanitarian reasons.
> 
> AZ has suffered a lose in tourism in recent years a couple of times due to reports, policies and boycotting. Policies were changed. We depend on our visitors. Would MX work to improve if they felt a similar economic lose?



I think so and my personal situation has changed regarding Mexico. I am more concerned about medical care and not so concerned about being a cartel victim. 

Many tourists do not realize that many of the newer medical centers in Mexico are for big profit and are not as comprehensive as in the states. If a tourist ends up in a hospital they usually have to show they can pay before being treated. The access to medical devices and testing procedures at many facilities is not as good as in the states. That being said, the care is better than nothing and a person with trip insurance that covers medical expenses and repatriation efforts can reduce the costs and stress.

If a tourist passes away in Mexico it can be a long and costly process getting them back to the states. A couple of years ago one of my friends dad passed away near PV at a resort and it took a couple of months to get him back. The hospital doctor decided he had a cold and he went back to the resort and his heart gave out. He didn't have trip insurance and before he could be sent back all of his bills needed to be paid.

I have experienced petty crime and corruption in Mexico but I have experienced the same thing in the USA. That doesn't bother me. The killings in certain areas of Mexico bother me enough that I try not to hang out in areas where this happens and never at the time of day when this type of thing happens more frequently. I do the same everywhere.

Bill


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## mikenk (May 21, 2018)

davidvel said:


> This thread is about people's fears of traveling to Mexico, and the reasons why they have such fears. This is the Mexico Timesharing forum, not the "How to Stay Safe When Traveling to Mexican Timeshares" forum. This thread is about Mexico Timesharing.
> 
> The lounge is about  discussions that don't fit into the other defined forum areas. It's  not a place to hide discussions you don't want to see.



There is a saying from Toyota leadership that I believe is right on and fits this discussion. The saying is "You don't understand unless you have been to Gemba." IOW, if you want to understand the truth, you have to go to the source. That's why the huge majority of people that visit Mexico aren't fearful of going - they know the situation first hand. So why are there such paranoiac fear in others particularly it seems to many on TUG outside the Mexico forums. In my opinion, there are three primary reasons.

1: The state of journalism in this country that is focused on sensationalism to sell papers and propaganda to sell personal agendas of the reporters and/or management. Incidences related to Drug wars and the violence surrounding it sell and people seem to soak it up. Thirty minutes ago in Dallas, a person targeted and rammed his car into a restaurant killing a few people. Things like this are common place these days in every city - but I doubt if I will hear about it again - will be old news by tomorrow and will not even be reported outside the area. Imagine if a drug dealer had rammed his car and killed three other rival drug dealers near a Mexican resort. That one incident would be all over news outlets (and this forum) within minutes striking fear into many and shrugs from us who go there.

2: The US State Department will take incidences like this and slap warnings all over the place - and people believe the State department really does due diligence. A few years ago, our beloved bureaucratic state department was warning us during the Swine flu epidemic not to travel from Texas with the flu rampant to Cabo where there was not a single case in the entire state. Huh!!!

3: Many people simply like to spread their paranoia to others who will believe it if they have no personal reason not to. Years ago, my daughter was actually petrified going with us to our resort based on all the statements from her coworkers and friends. She went and now wants to go all the time. I think these people that spread this fear mean well but are susceptible and buy into the sensationalist culture around the drug wars - which is of course fed by number 1 above fueling it seems a never ending cycle.

Just my opinion,
Mike


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## Egret1986 (May 21, 2018)

Both of the posts below make a lot of sense.  No bashing or name calling to get their points across.  Good sound advice.

I went for the first time in January to Cancun.  We had a wonderful time.  Then shortly after our vacation, we started hearing about the violence in Cancun and were quite surprised.  Will I be returning?  Maybe.    Am I influenced by the crime reports?  Not really.  I have so much exploring still to do inside and outside the US.  Mexico just isn't on the radar for the next couple of years.

I appreciate the sharing of information and opinions. 



mikenk said:


> There is a saying from Toyota leadership that I believe is right on and fits this discussion. The saying is "You don't understand unless you have been to Gemba." IOW, if you want to understand the truth, you have to go to the source. That's why the huge majority of people that visit Mexico aren't fearful of going - they know the situation first hand. So why are there such paranoiac fear in others particularly it seems to many on TUG outside the Mexico forums. In my opinion, there are three primary reasons.
> 
> 1: The state of journalism in this country that is focused on sensationalism to sell papers and propaganda to sell personal agendas of the reporters and/or management. Incidences related to Drug wars and the violence surrounding it sell and people seem to soak it up. Thirty minutes ago in Dallas, a person targeted and rammed his car into a restaurant killing a few people. Things like this are common place these days in every city - but I doubt if I will hear about it again - will be old news by tomorrow and will not even be reported outside the area. Imagine if a drug dealer had rammed his car and killed three other rival drug dealers near a Mexican resort. That one incident would be all over news outlets (and this forum) within minutes striking fear into many and shrugs from us who go there.
> 
> ...







Steve Fatula said:


> Never felt unsafe in Mexico, and was especially taken care of during 9/11 when we were in Cabo. We had to drive the Baja to get back to the states and walk across the border. Lots of armed Mexican police on the way, no trouble. Of course, that trip was a long time ago but I very much appreciated the hospitality we got.
> 
> Regarding California, I take that with a grain of salt also. One time we were at a conference in San Jose. I was looking for places to eat and found a highly rated restaurant. Every local I told was telling me I can't go there, it was too dangerous. So, I of course went. It's San Jose. Sure enough, got there, and the only thing I saw were lots of people from differnet ethnicities, including mine (white). No trouble at all. I took the comments regarding how unsafe it was as being from suburban richer folks who simply did not appreciate being in the city with others unlike them (as that was the crowd at the conference). I grew up in Cleveland Ohio, city. Every group hated every group. If I walked on Hough Avenue at the time, I would not have come home almost certainly. Same thing if I went down to W 25st St. That was not San Jose, or at least the area I was in.  Sometimes, comments from locals, who you might think know more about the area, have to be filtered.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (May 21, 2018)

mikenk said:


> There is a saying from Toyota leadership that I believe is right on and fits this discussion. The saying is "You don't understand unless you have been to Gemba." IOW, if you want to understand the truth, you have to go to the source. That's why the huge majority of people that visit Mexico aren't fearful of going - they know the situation first hand. So why are there such paranoiac fear in others particularly it seems to many on TUG outside the Mexico forums. In my opinion, there are three primary reasons.
> 
> 1: The state of journalism in this country that is focused on sensationalism to sell papers and propaganda to sell personal agendas of the reporters and/or management. Incidences related to Drug wars and the violence surrounding it sell and people seem to soak it up. Thirty minutes ago in Dallas, a person targeted and rammed his car into a restaurant killing a few people. Things like this are common place these days in every city - but I doubt if I will hear about it again - will be old news by tomorrow and will not even be reported outside the area. Imagine if a drug dealer had rammed his car and killed three other rival drug dealers near a Mexican resort. That one incident would be all over news outlets (and this forum) within minutes striking fear into many and shrugs from us who go there.
> 
> ...


Recalls Mark Twain's observation that "Travel is fatal to prejudice."


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## TravelTime (May 21, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> Probably due to the fact that you live so close to the border you have more exposure  than the average guy hence the unhealthy attraction to the topic. I still believe that the thread has nothing to do with how millions of tourists experience Mexico. Particularly those that travel to TSs that choose to abide by basic safety rules.
> Of course your motives seem very transparent even if you want to dress your comments as scientific curiosity.
> 
> You would probably be disturbed by a thread named "Crimes in California" with links to gang crimes in your state. I know, that would be just to test why people feel (un) safe when travelling to CA! By the way, when I went to San Francisco, in certain areas I felt much less safe that the places i visited in Mexico.



I would absolutely love a thread on Crime in California with links to gangs. This would be fascinating since I live in California. DannyTS, maybe you can start one on the West Coast Timesharing list or on TUG Lounge. Just be sure to get reputable news sources and not stuff off of Facebook or fake new sites.

I totally agree with you that San Francisco is scary. We never go to San Francisco unless forced by out of state guests.

I found your comment about the "unhealthy attraction to the topic" to be humorous and ironic because you are very actively involved in posting on this topic. Maybe we all have an unhealthy attraction to reading about crime and murder! LOL


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## TravelTime (May 21, 2018)

Steve Fatula said:


> Never felt unsafe in Mexico, and was especially taken care of during 9/11 when we were in Cabo. We had to drive the Baja to get back to the states and walk across the border. Lots of armed Mexican police on the way, no trouble. Of course, that trip was a long time ago but I very much appreciated the hospitality we got.
> 
> Regarding California, I take that with a grain of salt also. One time we were at a conference in San Jose. I was looking for places to eat and found a highly rated restaurant. Every local I told was telling me I can't go there, it was too dangerous. So, I of course went. It's San Jose. Sure enough, got there, and the only thing I saw were lots of people from differnet ethnicities, including mine (white). No trouble at all. I took the comments regarding how unsafe it was as being from suburban richer folks who simply did not appreciate being in the city with others unlike them (as that was the crowd at the conference). I grew up in Cleveland Ohio, city. Every group hated every group. If I walked on Hough Avenue at the time, I would not have come home almost certainly. Same thing if I went down to W 25st St. That was not San Jose, or at least the area I was in.  Sometimes, comments from locals, who you might think know more about the area, have to be filtered.



There are some dangerous areas in East San Jose. Downtown San Jose used to be dangerous too but it is being developed now. However, we never go to downtown San Jose or East San Jose. Too sketchy. East San Jose and some other areas have a lot of gang activity. I used to work in a school in an upscale part of San Jose called Willow Glen. In the San Jose School District, they allow people to go to any district school. We had many gang problems with the kids and many came from broken homes and were abused children. So sad. Many people who live in Willow Glen will not send their children to school there so the high school population is very diverse. We do not live in San Jose ourselves but our town is close by. When I worked at the Willow Glen High School, some kids smashed the back window of my car. I was glad to leave that job as soon as I could. I never felt safe on or around the campus.


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## DannyTS (May 21, 2018)

TravelTime said:


> I would absolutely love a thread on Crime in California with links to gangs. This would be fascinating since I live in California. DannyTS, maybe you can start one on the West Coast Timesharing list or on TUG Lounge. Just be sure to get reputable news sources and not stuff off of Facebook or fake new sites.
> 
> I totally agree with you that San Francisco is scary. We never go to San Francisco unless forced by out of state guests.
> 
> I found your comment about the "unhealthy attraction to the topic" to be humorous and ironic because you are very actively involved in posting on this topic.



lol i seem to run into it all too often. I would rather look at this





or this.


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## TravelTime (May 21, 2018)

mikenk said:


> There is a saying from Toyota leadership that I believe is right on and fits this discussion. The saying is "You don't understand unless you have been to Gemba." IOW, if you want to understand the truth, you have to go to the source. That's why the huge majority of people that visit Mexico aren't fearful of going - they know the situation first hand. So why are there such paranoiac fear in others particularly it seems to many on TUG outside the Mexico forums. In my opinion, there are three primary reasons.
> 
> 1: The state of journalism in this country that is focused on sensationalism to sell papers and propaganda to sell personal agendas of the reporters and/or management. Incidences related to Drug wars and the violence surrounding it sell and people seem to soak it up. Thirty minutes ago in Dallas, a person targeted and rammed his car into a restaurant killing a few people. Things like this are common place these days in every city - but I doubt if I will hear about it again - will be old news by tomorrow and will not even be reported outside the area. Imagine if a drug dealer had rammed his car and killed three other rival drug dealers near a Mexican resort. That one incident would be all over news outlets (and this forum) within minutes striking fear into many and shrugs from us who go there.
> 
> ...



I disagree with you. It is very difficult to get accurate news about crime in Mexico. The US media that I read - NY Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, etc. rarely write about it. When they do report on it, it becomes old news just as fast as school shootings. This is completely off topic but the Royal Marriage got more coverage than the school shooting in Texas. I subscribe to Mexico News Daily to keep up on what's happening in Mexico just because I have a morbid curiosity. The narcos fascinate me. I watched the Netflix series and thoroughly enjoyed it. Remember The Godfather series? People love to read and watch crime shows and movies. Frankly, I have no fear of traveling to Mexico. I went by myself in January. I have been to Mexico several times by myself as a woman, even to Acapulco. Things have happened and I have had to defend myself. I have probably been to Mexico at least 15 times in my life. Given how bad things are getting in Mexico, we decided to shift travel to new places until Mexico gets its act together. However, I suspect we will be back in the next few years because we have close friends who own 2 acres of beachfront land in Mazatlan and they have invited us to visit.


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## Karen G (May 21, 2018)

OK folks--I think we've beaten this horse to death and now the discussion is going all over the place complete with photos of lovely areas that aren't even in Mexico.  Time to close this thread, I think.


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