# How are TX Tuggers making out?



## Sandy VDH (Feb 16, 2021)

I just got power back after a rotating blackout that lasted 21 hours.  Power was off from late afternoon yesterday to early afternoon today.  So much for rotating. 

I live in the Houston area.  Outside temperature low was 12F (-11C) overnight last night.  House got down to 52F (11C).  Power finally came back on and I am heating up the house expecting the power to be shut off again. 

So much for green power, it is a large portion of wind generators that are frozen and are contributing to a large portion of the power shortfall in the TX grid, that is forcing rotating power outages.  Other equipment is failing in the extreme cold and that is also contributing to the power shortage as well.  

Stay warm Texas Tuggers.  TX is just not equiped to handle this extreme cold.


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## mentalbreak (Feb 16, 2021)

Wow. Hang in there.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 16, 2021)

I'm embarrassed to say I'm doing fine. No blackout at my house. Lots of places around me have problems, but somehow, not my little neighborhood.

Low last night was 2 F in my back yard,


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## bogey21 (Feb 16, 2021)

At my CCRC we have power for about 7 hours daily.  Basically I'm fine.  Food service is adequate under the circumstances...

The reason we have problems in Texas is that 1/4 of our electricity comes from windmills which are frozen and thus not producing electricity.  Clearly my support for the Green Economy is now approaching zero...

George


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## Sandy VDH (Feb 16, 2021)

In the Houston area alone currently 1.3 Million households with NO power according to centerpoint the company that manages most distribution in this area.


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## Rolltydr (Feb 16, 2021)

I don’t have a dog in this fight so please don’t shoot the messenger. After reading the initial post, I knew I had seen an article this morning that disputed frozen windmills were the main cause of the power outages in Texas. Although, it is true that many were frozen, it also appears there were freeze problems affecting most electricity producers in the state, regardless of type. According to this article, the windmill issue is only responsible for 13% of the total outages. 








						Are frozen wind turbines to blame for Texas power outages?
					

More than 4.2 million people left without power following winter storm Uri




					www.independent.co.uk


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## TheTimeTraveler (Feb 16, 2021)

To all the Texans and others who may be experiencing severe cold weather;  Don't forget to leave all your faucets running to help prevent frozen pipes should you lose your heat source.

Frozen pipes are not what you want to deal with if you can possibly avoid it.....


.


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## Passepartout (Feb 16, 2021)

Good advice on leaving faucets running a little. The nation and the world's thoughts are with Texas now.

Jim


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## DannyTS (Feb 16, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> I don’t have a dog in this fight so please don’t shoot the messenger. After reading the initial post, I knew I had seen an article this morning that disputed frozen windmills were the main cause of the power outages in Texas. Although, it is true that many were frozen, it also appears there were freeze problems affecting most electricity producers in the state, regardless of type. According to this article, the windmill issue is only responsible for 13% of the total outages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This seems to be contradicted by other articles. Yes, some gas plants were not running properly but only due to blackouts  so the gas generators are not the root cause of the problem.

First, some power plants may not have been operational due to routine maintenance, Cohan said. Peak demand typically occurs in the summer, so it's not unexpected for a coal or natural gas plant to be offline in an effort to tune up for the warmer months. 
Second, some power plants may have failed to operate in the cold, Cohan said. "Plants are optimized to run under our typical and our extreme summer conditions but they aren't as well prepared and engineered for extreme cold," he said.

According to Rai, if plants operate for too long in too extreme of conditions, it could be too costly to operate as well as cause damage to the equipment, which could further exacerbate the outages for longer periods of time.

Third, some natural gas plants may not have been able to get adequate supply of gas to be converted into electricity, Cohan said. Unlike a coal plant that has an  ready stockpile, *natural gas plants don't store as much on site, meaning any disruption at the supply source will lead to a disruption in turning on the lights.*

Carey King, an assistant director and research scientist at the Energy Institute at the University of Texas at Austin, said it's possible that *power outages at natural gas production sites lead to failures in the electric compressors that move the gas*.











						'Massive failure': Why are millions of people in Texas still without power?
					

Extreme cold winter weather led to power outages and rolling blackouts in Texas. Here's why it happened.




					www.usatoday.com


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## bogey21 (Feb 16, 2021)

That article is bull shit. Articles like the one you site are written by people with an agenda.  Live down here and you won't be so damn cavalier.  And by the way solar won't bail us out.  There has been hardly any sunlight either...

Try going 24 hours dressed like an eskimo in my apartmentwith no heat, no lights, eating cold food, no TV, no Internet, etc.  All at practically zero temperature.  Monday we got heat for 7 hours most of it while sleeping.  Today is a little better as a good bit of our 7 hours with electricity has  been during waking hours.  Some hospitals are closed because of freezing pipes.  For the same reason many residences don't have running water.  People are dying from carbon monoxide because they were sleeping in their cars to keep warm.  Other had to go to "Warming Centers" to live...

Before we get totally dependent on wind and solar someone needs to figure this out...

George


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## bluehende (Feb 16, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> That article is bull shit. Articles like the one you site are written by people with an agenda.  Live down here and you won't be so damn cavalier.  And by the way solar won't bail us out.  There has been hardly any sunlight either...
> 
> Try going 24 hours dressed like an eskimo in my apartmentwith no heat, no lights, eating cold food, no TV, no Internet, etc.  All at practically zero temperature.  Monday we got heat for 7 hours most of it while sleeping.  Today is a little better as a good bit of our 7 hours with electricity has  been during waking hours.  Some hospitals are closed because of freezing pipes.  For the same reason many residences don't have running water.  People are dying from carbon monoxide because they were sleeping in their cars to keep warm.  Other had to go to "Warming Centers" to live...
> 
> ...



Appears the messenger was shot.



A lot of agenda out there,'  Even from the operators themselves.  From the article

ERCOT acknowledges that frozen wind turbines have played a role, but that frozen instruments at natural gas, coal and nuclear facilities and a limited supply of natural gas are the main factors.




			https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/02/16/nation/why-is-power-out-much-texas-frozen-wind-farms-are-just-small-piece-puzzle/\\
		










						Frozen Wind Farms Are Just a Small Piece of Texas’s Power Woes
					

Don’t point too many fingers at Texas wind turbines, because they’re not the main reason broad swaths of the state have been plunged into darkness.




					www.bloomberg.com
				












						Frozen wind turbines are one culprit in Texas’s power outages
					

Ice has forced some turbines to shut down just as a brutal cold wave drives record electricity demand.




					fortune.com
				




And in case you just read the headline

Don’t point too many fingers at Texas wind turbines, because they’re not the main reason broad swaths of the state have been plunged into darkness.


While ice has forced some turbines to shut down just as a brutal cold wave drives record electricity demand, wind only comprises 25% of the state’s energy mix this time of year. The majority of outages overnight were plants fueled by natural gas, coal and nuclear, which together make up more than two-thirds of power generation during winter.









						Don’t Blame Wind Turbines for Texas' Massive Power Outages
					

Blackouts have spread from Texas across the Great Plains, reigniting the debate about the reliability of wind and solar power




					time.com


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## bluehende (Feb 16, 2021)

__





						Antarctica opens its largest wind farm
					

The world’s southern-most continent received its largest wind farm, powering antarctic stations Scott Base from New Zealand and the US McMurdo Station. The farm has three wind turbines, whereas Antarctica’s only other wind farm at Australia’s Mawson Station, only has two. The farm sits on the...




					www.windpowerengineering.com


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## DannyTS (Feb 16, 2021)

bluehende said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


did you read the article?

These specific turbines have been specifically engineered to endure the cold (temperatures can drop to as low as -76 Fahrenheit), and they tried to avoid using as many moving parts as possible; hence, these turbines do not have gearboxes.


*Depending on how well these turbines perform*, Scott Base and McMurdo Station that this wind farm very well could be the start of many.


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 16, 2021)

When you look at energy generation pragmatically - the type of generation has little to do with the current climate in your respective area. There are wind farms in some of the coldest parts of the world that run constantly throughout the year. There are coal and natural gas plants that run just fine year round (exception for routine maintenance), in the northern most parts of the US and Canada. There are northern plains states that produce more renewable energy than Texas for example. When we look at the reported issues objectively - we will come to realize that the power companies in Texas don’t have equipment hardened to endure colder climates - in fact Texas has chosen to implement equipment meant to work in high heat conditions - since that is often the bigger challenge for the state of Texas. The polar vortex that Texas is currently experiencing is something the northern states endure every day without any power generation issues.  But that’s not the whole story, there’s a critical piece missing.

Texas is also the only state in the union that isn’t connected to the federal power grids like most other states. There’s literally the western grid, the eastern grid, and the Texas grid. Typically when something like this happens in other parts of the country - the local power utilities can buy peak power from other utility companies in adjacent states and use the grid to transfer power to meet critical demand. Because of the choices that Texans have made to remain independent from the federal power grids - this is what happens when the local utility providers experience infrastructure failures and have no ability to buy power from others connected to the federal power grids. Perhaps Texas will reconsider the energy grid choices made historically in this regard. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rolltydr (Feb 16, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> That article is bull shit. Articles like the one you site are written by people with an agenda.  Live down here and you won't be so damn cavalier.  And by the way solar won't bail us out.  There has been hardly any sunlight either...
> 
> Try going 24 hours dressed like an eskimo in my apartmentwith no heat, no lights, eating cold food, no TV, no Internet, etc.  All at practically zero temperature.  Monday we got heat for 7 hours most of it while sleeping.  Today is a little better as a good bit of our 7 hours with electricity has  been during waking hours.  Some hospitals are closed because of freezing pipes.  For the same reason many residences don't have running water.  People are dying from carbon monoxide because they were sleeping in their cars to keep warm.  Other had to go to "Warming Centers" to live...
> 
> ...


I live in Alabama so I‘m not sure how much farther “down here” I need to go. I’m very sorry about your situation but I was just trying to point out that the windmills might not be *the only* issue. Hitchhiker provided some more detailed information so I won’t repeat it. You made clear you disagreed with the article but you didn’t provide any facts that disputed the article. If you believe the numbers stated in the article are wrong, please provide some that support your position. Otherwise, you’re just stating your opinion. Which is fine, it just doesn’t mean the article is, indeed, inaccurate.


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## Talent312 (Feb 16, 2021)

From the horses mouth...

Officials for the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, or ERCOT, which manages most of Texas’ grid, said that the *primary* cause of the outages on Tuesday appeared to be the state’s natural gas providers. Many are not designed to withstand such low temperatures on equipment or during production.  By some estimates, nearly half of the state’s natural gas production has screeched to a halt due to the extremely low temperatures, while freezing components at natural gas-fired power plants have forced some operators to shut down.

An official with ERCOT said Tuesday afternoon that 16 gigawatts of renewable energy generation, mostly wind generation, was offline. *Nearly double* that, 30 gigawatts, had been lost from thermal sources, which includes gas, coal and nuclear energy.  ERCOT president Bill Magness said some wind turbine generators were iced, but* nearly twice* as much power was wiped out at natural gas and coal plants.

-- Source: Texas Tribune & ABC News


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## DannyTS (Feb 16, 2021)

Many wind turbines are programmed to shut off during high winds or very cold weather to avoid mechanical failure.


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## Passepartout (Feb 16, 2021)

When all the dust settles, I think it will be shown that the Texas deregulated electric power grid is the culprit. Wind turbines work in Canada, Scandinavia, even Antarctica. With proper preparation and maintenance, they'll work in Texas too.

Jim


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## Sandy VDH (Feb 16, 2021)

Since I am the OP, I'm not pointing fingers but want solutions.

I have at least 4 friend with burst water pipes, causing a whole house worth of damage.  And those are the ones who I have been texting in the last 48 hours.  Could be a much larger number.  Someone in my 75 house 5 street gated community has had a pipe burst too.  I guess I got a slightly more insulated or better built house than others.  Thankfully, but this would never happen up north, as houses are built to prevent this.  Only downed lines would cause an outage not a shortage of KW hours.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 16, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> When you look at energy generation pragmatically - the type of generation has little to do with the current climate in your respective area. There are wind farms in some of the coldest parts of the world that run constantly throughout the year. There are coal and natural gas plants that run just fine year round (exception for routine maintenance), in the northern most parts of the US and Canada. There are northern plains states that produce more renewable energy than Texas for example. When we look at the reported issues objectively - we will come to realize that the power companies in Texas don’t have equipment hardened to endure colder climates - in fact Texas has chosen to implement equipment meant to work in high heat conditions - since that is often the bigger challenge for the state of Texas. The polar vortex that Texas is currently experiencing is something the northern states endure every day without any power generation issues.  But that’s not the whole story, there’s a critical piece missing.
> 
> Texas is also the only state in the union that isn’t connected to the federal power grids like most other states. There’s literally the western grid, the eastern grid, and the Texas grid. Typically when something like this happens in other parts of the country - the local power utilities can buy peak power from other utility companies in adjacent states and use the grid to transfer power to meet critical demand. Because of the choices that Texans have made to remain independent from the federal power grids - this is what happens when the local utility providers experience infrastructure failures and have no ability to buy power from others connected to the federal power grids. Perhaps Texas will reconsider the energy grid choices made historically in this regard.
> 
> ...



Or perhaps not, Look at the range and scope of the 1964 and the 1989 east coast and midwest blackouts. This has been relatively kept under control, with no total total shutdown like those instances.

This cold burst is the coldest in at least 70 years (colder than 1983) but not as bad as the "great grandaddy of them all", the 1899 winter, when Galveston Bay froze over.

The Texas system is not hardened enough for a once in 100 year cold spell, granted. OTOH, it is hard to keep up with infrastructure with continual population growth (Which Texas has been getting for the last 2 decades).

Of course, I remember Chicago a couple of decades ago, and the great heat wave that killed over 1,000 people. Chicago wasn't hardened or an extreme heat wave either. (I also remember that big heat wave on the east coast, and the rolling blackouts it triggered.


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## DrQ (Feb 16, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Texas is also the only state in the union that isn’t connected to the federal power grids like most other states. There’s literally the western grid, the eastern grid, and the Texas grid. Typically when something like this happens in other parts of the country - the local power utilities can buy peak power from other utility companies in adjacent states and use the grid to transfer power to meet critical demand. Because of the choices that Texans have made to remain independent from the federal power grids - this is what happens when the local utility providers experience infrastructure failures and have no ability to buy power from others connected to the federal power grids. Perhaps Texas will reconsider the energy grid choices made historically in this regard.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


With the extent of the cold wave, I don't think that we could have begged borrowed or stole power for the national grid.

ERCOT got caught with its pants down in starting up gas powered electrical generation plant in single digit conditions. 20 20 hindsight, but they should have been spinning up the plants before it got really cold. Texas is used to bringing additional power online in 100+ weather, 5 degrees, not so much.

One thing I read is that the wind power is usually reduced during the winter, so the numbers being quoted for the loss of power may be optimistic.


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## krj9999 (Feb 16, 2021)

You can equip wind turbines with cold weather packages (down to minus 20 F) and de-icing systems.  Least cost solution isn't always the best approach.

Texas electric grid was at the mercy of cold weather - The Washington Post


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## DrQ (Feb 16, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Of course, I remember Chicago a couple of decades ago, and the great heat wave that killed over 1,000 people. Chicago wasn't hardened or an extreme heat wave either. (I also remember that big heat wave on the east coast, and the rolling blackouts it triggered.


We lived though the winter of '79. If I remember correctly ... 90 consecutive days below freezing and 30 consecutive days below zero.


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## DrQ (Feb 16, 2021)

krj9999 said:


> You can equip wind turbines with cold weather packages (down to minus 20 F) and de-icing systems.  Least cost solution isn't always the best approach.
> 
> Texas electric grid was at the mercy of cold weather - The Washington Post


But the question is cost/reward. We don't build for the 100 year storm. Do we take that money and invest in capacity to use in 100+ weather?


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 16, 2021)

DrQ said:


> With the extent of the cold wave, I don't think that we could have begged borrowed or stole power for the national grid.
> 
> ERCOT got caught with its pants down in starting up gas powered electrical generation plant in single digit conditions. 20 20 hindsight, but they should have been spinning up the plants before it got really cold. Texas is used to bringing additional power online in 100+ weather, 5 degrees, not so much.
> 
> One thing I read is that the wind power is usually reduced during the winter, so the numbers being quoted for the loss of power may be optimistic.



It’s hard to say - the power grids in both the east and west aren’t running at peak power during the winter months so there is peak power capability in both grids that could be spun up to help. Even a partial restoration of power via grid transfer right now for those affected would make a huge difference. A three stranded cord is stronger than a single stranded cord type thing. 

I totally agree that the focus in Texas has been on hardening for heat as opposed to cold.  I just hope this is a once in 100 years cold snap and not a harbinger of things to come as it relates to climate change.  

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Passepartout (Feb 16, 2021)

Sandy VDH said:


> Since I am the OP, I'm not pointing fingers but want solutions.
> 
> I have at least 4 friend with burst water pipes, causing a whole house worth of damage.  And those are the ones who I have been texting in the last 48 hours.  Could be a much larger number.  Someone in my 75 house 5 street gated community has had a pipe burst too.  I guess I got a slightly more insulated or better built house than others.  Thankfully, but this would never happen up north, as houses are built to prevent this.  Only downed lines would cause an outage not a shortage of KW hours.


Building codes are developed for the area they serve. If freezing temps are expected, pipes aren't put in outside walls. Thicker walls, more insulation are required. In colder climates you won't find laundry or water softeners in the garage.  And, of course, in places that are susceptible to a sudden freeze, people are taught- or learn quickly- that moving water doesn't freeze, so keep faucets trickling. Pro trick here- if you have sinks against outside walls, OPEN THE DOORS UNDER THEM!

Water damage is difficult and expensive to repair.

Jim


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 16, 2021)

DrQ said:


> We lived though the winter of '79. If I remember correctly ... 90 consecutive days below freezing and 30 consecutive days below zero.



In DFW? Not likely! Where? (I've live in Texas since 1957.)

And could that place handle 90 straight days above 100? (That was only a few years ago in DFW.)


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## DrQ (Feb 16, 2021)

Sandy VDH said:


> Since I am the OP, I'm not pointing fingers but want solutions.
> 
> I have at least 4 friend with burst water pipes, causing a whole house worth of damage.  And those are the ones who I have been texting in the last 48 hours.  Could be a much larger number.  Someone in my 75 house 5 street gated community has had a pipe burst too.  I guess I got a slightly more insulated or better built house than others.  Thankfully, but this would never happen up north, as houses are built to prevent this.  Only downed lines would cause an outage not a shortage of KW hours.


We are fortunate as to how our house is designed. With the exception of the laundry room, all faucets run through INTERIOR walls. We added a sun-room/4 season porch which made the laundry room exterior wall an interior wall.

Up north, we usually don't run water pipes along exterior walls or attics. If it is done, you use lots of insulation and also probably have a basement.


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## HitchHiker71 (Feb 16, 2021)

DrQ said:


> But the question is cost/reward. We don't build for the 100 year storm. Do we take that money and invest in capacity to use in 100+ weather?



This is why I mentioned the grid connection issue. I’m not sure it makes sense for Texas to harden the electric grid for freezing temps - for such rare occasions it would seem worthwhile to supplement from the East/West grid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DrQ (Feb 16, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> In DFW? Not likely! Where? (I've live in Texas since 1957.)
> 
> And could that place handle 90 straight days above 100? (That was only a few years ago in DFW.)


DeKalb IL '79   

You were talking 'bout Chi-town

That the region of the 90-90's 90 degrees with 90% relative humidity.  I'll take Texas over that (Sorry Sandy, Houston, no so much.)


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## amycurl (Feb 16, 2021)

I think, in the era of climate change, we need to expect “100 year events” every decade or so. That’s certainly been the case so far in terms of “100 year floods” and “100 years hurricanes.” 

And maybe Texas could have learned more from the Enron scandal than it did 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## TheTimeTraveler (Feb 16, 2021)

This current issue will be debated in the rearview mirror for years......

Why not take the unemployed and homeless folks and place them to work burying electrical lines all over the country so that cold, ice, snow, fires, tornadoes, hurricanes, uprooted trees, speeding vehicles, etc. are no longer issues that interrupt our great dependance on electricity ?

This would be a massive public works project and would solve a lot of issues in society.

Wishful thinking at best   



.


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## BJRSanDiego (Feb 16, 2021)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> To all the Texans and others who may be experiencing severe cold weather;  Don't forget to leave all your faucets running to help prevent frozen pipes should you lose your heat source.
> 
> Frozen pipes are not what you want to deal with if you can possibly avoid it.....
> 
> ...


I'm originally from Minnesota and when the temps would dip below -20 F, we would leave the water trickle.  We were told that it doesn't need to be a lot of water to keep the pipes from freezing.  

But in Mn., most builders avoided putting water pipes in outside walls or if they had to, they hugged the inside walls rather than put them in the center.  Likewise, builders didn't put pipes in attics.  Also, things like outdoor hose bibs, above ground irrigation pipes and above ground water meters, fire suppression supply valves, are also at risk.  

But now I live in Southern California which has a warm climate like much of Texas and the builders put pipes in attics, outside walls, etc.


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## Janann (Feb 16, 2021)

My house has been extremely fortunate to have electricity 24/7.  We had a frozen pipe in the bathroom, but my husband was able to defrost it with a space heater.  My only theory on why our neighborhood was spared from a blackout is that we are about a quarter-mile from a stand-alone emergency room, and right next to that is a CVS.  Maybe the power is being kept on for those two businesses?  Who knows.


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## bizaro86 (Feb 16, 2021)

Thoughts and prayers to those affected. 

We've had about a week of -20F here, and the power hasn't been an issue, including both wind and natural gas generation.

I'd suspect on the gas side the issue might actually be gas supply. Natural gas wells freeze off on a somewhat regular basis here, because it's cold and pressure drop (which is how gas wells flow) is very endothermic. Natural gas producers in Canada keep methanol on hand to pump into frozen wells to thaw them. I somehow doubt similar precautions are in place in Texas.


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## JanT (Feb 17, 2021)

We live just above San Antonio and things for us personally haven’t been too bad.  It’s been very cold for this area - about 5 degrees overnight last night.  Snow and ice.  We’ve been living in an apartment since we sold our house last September and I can tell you more than once we’ve talked about the lack of planning by Texas in general for this kind of thing. They’ve just failed in preparing their state for such cold weather.  I know they thought it would never happen but seriously, we only know the history of weather from the time it’s been recorded.  So no one really knows what might or might not happen.

We’ve had power outages off and on all day today.  Never for more than an hour thankfully.  But we’ve been without water since yesterday afternoon because a water pipe from the upstairs apartment burst so they shut the water off.  They’ve now shut water off to the entire complex.

Unfortunately the burst pipe caused our bedroom to flood.  Thankfully they shut the water off fairly quickly and we had access to our steam cleaner that we have been using to pull the water from the carpet in there.  We didn’t go to a hotel last night because we’d had no power outages at that point.  But we’ll be heading to one tomorrow.  Hotels here have back up generators and things seem to be functioning fairly well.  It’s going to be days or weeks before they get things squared away in this complex.  

But honestly, I feel very blessed because I know it could be so much worse for us.  I read some others hardships here and it breaks my heart.  Please everyone, stay safe and know my prayers are with you.


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## bogey21 (Feb 17, 2021)

I don't know it it matters or not but a large number of our windmills are at really high elevations.  If you are driving West on the highway South of Lubbock, you see hundreds if not thousands of windmills at the very  top of the mountains in front of you...

George


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## Gypsy65 (Feb 17, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> That article is bull shit. Articles like the one you site are written by people with an agenda.  Live down here and you won't be so damn cavalier.  And by the way solar won't bail us out.  There has been hardly any sunlight either...
> 
> Try going 24 hours dressed like an eskimo in my apartmentwith no heat, no lights, eating cold food, no TV, no Internet, etc.  All at practically zero temperature.  Monday we got heat for 7 hours most of it while sleeping.  Today is a little better as a good bit of our 7 hours with electricity has  been during waking hours.  Some hospitals are closed because of freezing pipes.  For the same reason many residences don't have running water.  People are dying from carbon monoxide because they were sleeping in their cars to keep warm.  Other had to go to "Warming Centers" to live...
> 
> ...



I don’t get how in the day and age of information and all the carbon monoxide deaths that have been reported on for the past few decades that this is still a cause of death

If in a car. Run it outside. Keep exhaust free from being covered by snow or ? And crack a window
This has been the rule since I was a kid and it hasn’t changed


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## Gypsy65 (Feb 17, 2021)

Sandy VDH said:


> Since I am the OP, I'm not pointing fingers but want solutions.
> 
> I have at least 4 friend with burst water pipes, causing a whole house worth of damage.  And those are the ones who I have been texting in the last 48 hours.  Could be a much larger number.  Someone in my 75 house 5 street gated community has had a pipe burst too.  I guess I got a slightly more insulated or better built house than others.  Thankfully, but this would never happen up north, as houses are built to prevent this.  Only downed lines would cause an outage not a shortage of KW hours.



Even homes in the north will end up with broken pipes if the heat goes out
Much of the difference there is that heat is usually gas or some other type rather than electric 

As mentioned, If you have the ability to turn all faucets on. Even a trickle will help

If you can’t run water. Open all faucets and let the pipes drain if you can


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 17, 2021)

Here's a nice summary of the oil and gas situation from a major oil and gas industry blog.









						Terminal Frost - Extreme Cold Wreaks Havoc with Natural Gas Producers, Power Generators, and Everybody in Between
					

If you’re reading this, it means you’ve got access to power and internet. Count yourself among the fortunate today. Rolling blackouts and brownouts across the middle of the country and in Texas, have disrupted businesses and lives.




					rbnenergy.com


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## Rolltydr (Feb 17, 2021)

It looks like El Paso learned it’s lesson from a storm about 10 years ago.








						El Paso's not seeing power outages like the rest of Texas - here's why - KVIA
					

EL PASO, Texas -- Millions of Texans are dealing with rolling power outages after a massive winter storm made it's way though the entire state, but that's not the case here in El Paso. El Paso is not apart of the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT), a major grid operator that controls...




					kvia.com


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## geekette (Feb 17, 2021)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> This current issue will be debated in the rearview mirror for years......
> 
> Why not take the unemployed and homeless folks and place them to work burying electrical lines all over the country so that cold, ice, snow, fires, tornadoes, hurricanes, uprooted trees, speeding vehicles, etc. are no longer issues that interrupt our great dependance on electricity ?
> 
> ...


It's a stretch to assume that homeless and/or unemployed people are capable of the hard labor required for this.

It took years of planning and many months of work for just one electrical line to get buried here.   I think we are maybe 20 houses, could be a few more.  

If there is no committment to infrastructure improvements, it doesn't matter whether or not there are able-bodied people available.   Nobody will take a contract that doesn't pay.


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## Laurie (Feb 17, 2021)

HitchHiker71 said:


> Texas is also the only state in the union that isn’t connected to the federal power grids like most other states. There’s literally the western grid, the eastern grid, and the Texas grid. Typically when something like this happens in other parts of the country - the local power utilities can buy peak power from other utility companies in adjacent states and use the grid to transfer power to meet critical demand. Because of the choices that Texans have made to remain independent from the federal power grids - this is what happens when the local utility providers experience infrastructure failures and have no ability to buy power from others connected to the federal power grids. Perhaps Texas will reconsider the energy grid choices made historically in this regard.



This. I hope no one missed this. Especially everyone swearing off green energy.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 17, 2021)

Renewable Energy Is Not the Chief Cause of Texas' Power Outages
					

The vast majority of the shortfall is from failures at fossil fuel-powered plants.




					reason.com
				






> With respect to the current episode, about half of Texas' wind turbines did freeze up. However, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, a power grid operator, generally calculates that the turbines will generate only about 19 to 43 percent of their maximum output during the winter months. It is worth noting that winds from the storm were boosting power production from the unfrozen coastal wind turbines and thus offsetting some of the other power generation losses.


​

> In fact, similar state-wide power outages previously occurred in February 2011 when wind and solar power constituted less than 4 percent of Texas' generation capacity. The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission's report on the 2011 weather event noted that 193 generating units failed, resulting in rolling power outages that affected 3.2 million customers. Most of the outages in 2011 occurred as a result of frozen sensors and valves and natural gas shortages. The same problems with insufficiently winterized equipment appear to be happening now.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 17, 2021)

Heads are probably going to roll at ERCOT:









						The heads of ERCOT's board don't even live in Texas
					

The heads of ERCOT's board of directors aren't feeling the effects of Texas' power...




					www.chron.com


----------



## DrQ (Feb 17, 2021)

Gas at one U.S. hub is trading at $999. Last week it was at $4
					

A polar blast in the central U.S. has pushed natural gas prices at one trading hub up 24,000% from a week ago.




					fortune.com


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 17, 2021)

Laurie said:


> This. I hope no one missed this. Especially everyone swearing off green energy.


What does Texas having a solo energy grid have to do with green energy...

George


----------



## geekette (Feb 17, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> What does Texas having a solo energy grid have to do with green energy...
> 
> George


Ask the Texan that made the rounds of new shows complaining that the issue is about green energy.


----------



## Laurie (Feb 17, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> The reason we have problems in Texas is that 1/4 of our electricity comes from windmills which are frozen and thus not producing electricity.  Clearly my support for the Green Economy is now approaching zero...





bogey21 said:


> What does Texas having a solo energy grid have to do with green energy...



Because a primary reason for current difficulty in Texas is lack of participation in federal grids which would give Texas ability to buy from other states. So whether or not windmills have frozen (and whether or not the sun is currently shining,etc.), Texas proibably could have better met the needs of residents, if not for Texas' refusal to participate - completely aside from green energy sources - whereas you and other TUGgers have suggested this episode reduces even further your support for green energy alternatives, as if that is the culprit, for example your comment above.

I don't know the rationale for the Texas non-participation, I'm curious about that and will look it up when I have a chance.


----------



## JanT (Feb 17, 2021)

He’s an idiot!!!  



geekette said:


> Ask the Texan that made the rounds of new shows complaining that the issue is about green energy.


----------



## bbodb1 (Feb 17, 2021)

Green energy is the problem (or better said, a major factor contributing to the problem) if your energy grid depends heavily (significantly) on Green Energy and has no useful redundant (and operational) backup.  It certainly appears that as Green Energy sources have come online, Texas power providers have been loathe to keep an adequate amount of backup sources ready to assume that portion of producing the power required for Texas should the Green Energy sources fail. 

Green Energy is a wonderful idea - and it should be further pursued and improved - but clearly there are still limits to it.  
Our power grid system - like our air traffic control system - is also in need of improvements and updates. 

As much as I favor the free market, there are still a few instances where well regulated and well run monopoly can serve the public interest.  The area of power production is definitely one of those areas because such utilities can develop and maintain excess capacities that may be needed in times of crisis that utilities operating in the free market cannot and remain cost competitive.


----------



## geist1223 (Feb 17, 2021)

NOPE


----------



## Sandy VDH (Feb 17, 2021)

So far I am aware of 5 of my friends, who when it is was 12F outside and were without power, are now dealing with the thaw and burst pipes and lot of water damage in their homes.  Many of these are homes that were flooded and repaired because of Hurricane Harvey.  It is getting old for some of these folks, when they can't control their environment, because of state run entities (Eg. ERCOT and the SJRA).


----------



## Brett (Feb 17, 2021)

NOPE


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 17, 2021)

NOPE


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 17, 2021)

geekette said:


> Ask the Texan that made the rounds of new shows complaining that the issue is about green energy.


Look at it this way.  Despite being a major oil and gas producer Texas produces more electricity from nuclear, wind and solar than most other states...

George


----------



## geekette (Feb 17, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Look at it this way.  Despite being a major oil and gas producer Texas produces more electricity from nuclear, wind and solar than most other states...
> 
> George


And most other states do not have the landmass or sunshine to do it.  Comparing states like this makes no sense as it is not apples to apples.   Maybe all of our windmills are operational today, I don't know, but I'm betting they were installed to withstand high heat and deathly cold.   If you're going to do it, do it right.  Texas got its big warning a decade ago with a serious cold snap.  They didn't solve the problem, and now people dying from cold.  In Texas, with all that energy production.


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 17, 2021)

geekette said:


> And most other states do not have the landmass or sunshine to do it.


Hey, I wasn't criticizing other states.  I was just stating a fact...


----------



## geekette (Feb 17, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Hey, I wasn't criticizing other states.  I was just stating a fact...


by comparing it to other states.  

Right now, it doesn't seem to matter how much power TX produces if it can't keep some reserves to prevent massive loss of life in an emergency (Galveston has asked for refrigerator trucks; the irony is disturbing).  Here in Indiana, it's been frigid for days but no problems with electricity.   I don't care how much we produce, I care whether or not it makes it to my home.


----------



## Brett (Feb 17, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Hey, I wasn't criticizing other states.  I was just stating a fact...




right, but the "fact" was somewhat misleading. 
Maybe a better way to compare state's energy usage is by % of the population, land mass,  or a pie chart, etc.


----------



## DeniseM (Feb 17, 2021)

COOL IT!  (pun intended)


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 17, 2021)

I was going to say something about...
but that would bring too much heat.
.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 17, 2021)

I found out why I have power. There is a critical infrastructure plant about 3/8th of a mile from me. It's so well run, I forget about it.


----------



## MULTIZ321 (Feb 17, 2021)

'An electrical island': Texas has dodged federal
 regulation for years by having its own power grid.










						'An electrical island': Texas has dodged federal regulation for years by having its own power grid
					

One U.S. power grid covers the eastern states, another the western states. And then there is the Texas grid, which serves one state.



					www.usatoday.com
				





Richard


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 17, 2021)

The theory was that the lone-star state was too big to fail.
-------------------------
I feel for those with busted water pipes that flood a house.
We've dealt with that. The damage is usually covered by insurance.
Allstate covered restoration and bought new carpeting, tile, and a vanity.
.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 17, 2021)

It's not wind power because cold places like the Netherlands and Greenland run on wind during frigid conditions. The TX power operators neglected to invest in winterizing all TX power sources (traditional and wind). Epic Fail because the same happened in 2011 and 1989. They were told in 2011 to winterize but ignored.


----------



## jehb2 (Feb 18, 2021)

I feel lucky but this is where we are.  We have electricity for about 6 hours and then it goes out for 2.  Our house is well insulated so it stays warm. Our stove is gas and I can light it with a match even if the electricity is out.  We have plenty of food because of Covid.  We subscribe to a bottle water service so we have plenty of drinking water.

We don’t have any running water.  Fortunately we filled the bathtubs so we’re able to flush the toilets.

Sometimes I can make cell phone calls, sometimes I can text.  I Finally downloaded a bunch of movies to my iPad from Prime, Netflix, & HBOMax. So I think we’ll make it.

I was almost completely caught off guard.  on Wednesday I just happen to hear one of my kids teachers say in her zoom that that the temperature was going to drop to 8 degrees.


----------



## Lanswitch (Feb 18, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Look at it this way.  Despite being a major oil and gas producer Texas produces more electricity from nuclear, wind and solar than most other states...
> 
> George


Wind power only accounts for about 17% of Texas’ electric power supply so blame for the massive outages cannot be laid at the doorstep of that source.


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 18, 2021)

I now have heat and power.  My Daughter's kids are looking to go back to school on Monday (their school has been open since last August).  Although my Son's restaurant is running low on food yesterday he provided hot food to those in a shelter.  He says they will  remain open until their food runs out or they get a new shipment...

George


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 18, 2021)

Glad to hear Tuggers are well and power is being restored.

FWIW...El Paso has power because they made the investments to winterize after the 2011 big chill. The comment on wind is a red herring to evade the fact that leaders failed to invest in winterizing the system. They ignored the advice from experts in 2011. Texas has lower taxes and this likely resulted in systematically under-investing in infrastructure like this.



			Lessons from El Paso's 2011 winter storm keep electricity coming as state faces blackouts
		



This will have economic costs to TX beyond the current crisis. Will likely see more state taxes or energy bills  in the future to make up for these infrastructure deficits.

In addition, many corporations have been evaluating moving to TX for lower taxes. This will have a big chill on such decisions to move and may result in some corps reversing their decisions. Corporations cannot stop business for days with interruptions like this.   UHauls now making UTurns.


----------



## pedro47 (Feb 18, 2021)

Be safe Tuggers in Texas.  Praying all the snow will begun by Saturday morning.


----------



## Passepartout (Feb 18, 2021)

pedro47 said:


> Be safe Tuggers in Texas.  Praying all the snow will begun by Saturday morning.


Keep your head down. Get supplies yourself. It looks like the snow/deep freeze is headed for the East Coast. Be safe.

Jim


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 18, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> Keep your head down. Get supplies yourself.... Be safe.



Also:  Don't take any wooden nickels.


----------



## Brett (Feb 18, 2021)

and have some patience when you're in that mile line at the drive thru

*In Houston, folks wait up to 4 hours for food from open Burger King*
https://www.wesh.com/article/in-hou...hours-for-food-from-open-burger-king/35540433


----------



## Roger830 (Feb 18, 2021)

Here's a graph that I found.
The green shows the amount of electricity generated by wind. On Feb 8 it was about 50% now nil.
Natural gas generation increased significantly, but the demand for electricity because of the extreme cold is so high it wasn't enough, thus blackouts occurred or were enforced.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 18, 2021)

Interesting chart. Perhaps ERCO should consult with the Netherlands and Greenland about how to winterize their turbines because these cold-climate countries have figured it out.


----------



## Sandy VDH (Feb 18, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Interesting chart. Perhaps ERCO should consult with the Netherlands and Greenland about how to winterize their turbines because these cold-climate countries have figured it out.



They can just call Canada.  Its probably on their calling plan.  LOL


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 18, 2021)

The other options to build capacity during peak periods is to expand their nat gas generation for peak periods or join a grid to borrow during peak periods. The bottom line is that they didn't plan /invest for these events and the determination of which alternative is best to avoid future events will depend on the economics. I assume that joining a grid would be the most cost effective option but not sure if TX wants to go that route.


----------



## "Roger" (Feb 18, 2021)

This morning I talked to a friend who was staying at the RCI Brownsville location. Their temperatures have been just below freezing (for their daily lows) so I figured that they probably (although not necessarily) did not have much problem with lack of power. Wrong. They have power now, but did not have it for three days. In addition there was no water. I wondered about flushing toilets. People started taking buckets of water from the swimming pool for their toilets.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 18, 2021)

It is important to remember - there is not one chokepoint in this situation. There are failures at every level. Let me quote form the RBN blog.

"To state the obvious, prices are a function of both demand and supply, and this Arctic event has been a doozy for both sides of that equation. Not only have record electric generation and heating demand been competing for gas supply, particularly in the Central U.S., but supply has taken a big hit, as freezing temperatures and widespread power outages have led to extensive freeze-offs at the wellhead as well as other types of upstream and pipeline outages that have crippled producers’ ability to get volumes to market. Today our focus is on the factors that stifled production in some of the most resource-rich areas of the country. 

Initial pipeline data as of early Tuesday indicates Lower-48 gas production is down a whopping 10.6 Bcf since Friday to 76.1 Bcf/d and down 15 Bcf/d from the recent high of 91.1 Bcf/d seen a week ago on Friday, February 5. At this level, production is also 18 Bcf (~20%) lower than this time last year and more than 5 Bcf/d below the 5-yr average."

"Natural gas wellhead freeze-offs — a phenomena where low temperatures crystallize the water produced along with natural gas, forcing blockages at the wellhead — happen when outside temperatures drop below freezing in producing fields. The consequences range from minor inconvenience to major reductions in natural gas production and power outages affecting millions of customers. From a scale of 1 to 10, you could say Texas’s trouble has been turned up to 11 in terms of gas supply and power failure."

Yes, wellheads can be hardened. But question, do you add the extra expense to protect from a once in every 50 year event on a well that has only, say, a 20 year lifetime? With low prices, it would come as no surprise that most firms said no. You want to fix it? Have the Texas Railroad Commission make methanol injection systems integral to every new well completion. 

"There are several points at which freeze-offs are common and can block the gas flow, including: right at the wellhead pipe-and-valve “Christmas tree,” in the inlet scrubber or separator that splits out the gas, water and condensate streams, and again just as the gas exits the separator and flows into the gathering system. There are processes to keep the wellhead operational, including the removal of water and condensates that accumulate in limited onsite storage breakdown. But these systems can automatically shut down production flows if those storage tanks don’t drain and fill to capacity. Similarly, freeze-offs can worsen if operators aren’t able to replenish the chemicals that prevent condensation in the gathering systems."

Look at the numbers. Not enough gas - not enough electricity. Then if the power plants have freeze problems, even less electricity. In Texas, many (most?) homes are heated by natural gas. By law they get priority over power plants. When it's extraordinarily cold, the residential demand goes up - way up! Less gas for electricity. Rolling blackouts. Then permanent blackouts. But at least they are controlled blackouts, carefully chosen - maybe. And that's better than having the entire grid go down hard.

The critical infrastructure I'm near? A major sewage treatment plant. Kept warm and running. Forth Worth let theirs freeze - not considered critical enough. Guess who is now boiling their water - if they get any at all?

Wind didn't help - they had their own freeze-up problems (and nobody made them add all the winterizing add-ons when they were built, either). Solar? You don't get much from a panel cover with 4 inches of snow.

Now there is Nat Gas storage in Texas, but gas can only go in and out so fast. Nowhere near fast enough to make up for the Nat gas shortfalls.

Finally, we older Texans remember all the "help" federal regulations for the oil business back in the 1970's. Federal law limited most Texas oil to $2.65 cents a barrel - when the open market price was $20 - $30 - $40 dollars a barrel. Do we want the same sort of federal "help" in the electricity market?

As a 5th generation Native Texan, I reserve the right to rant back. . . .


----------



## Brett (Feb 18, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> It is important to remember - there is not one chokepoint in this situation. There are failures at every level. Let me quote form the RBN blog.
> 
> "To state the obvious, prices are a function of both demand and supply, and this Arctic event has been a doozy for both sides of that equation. Not only have record electric generation and heating demand been competing for gas supply, particularly in the Central U.S., but supply has taken a big hit, as freezing temperatures and widespread power outages have led to extensive freeze-offs at the wellhead as well as other types of upstream and pipeline outages that have crippled producers’ ability to get volumes to market. Today our focus is on the factors that stifled production in some of the most resource-rich areas of the country.
> 
> ...




OK
Why would anyone need or want federal government "help"  especially *O*lder* N*ative *T*exans
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02/even-power-disasters-are-bigger-in-texas-*heres-why*/


----------



## geist1223 (Feb 18, 2021)

Watching the Evening News every official or politician in Texas is pointing at someone else.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 19, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> Watching the Evening News every official or politician in Texas is pointing at someone else.



Or they’re just escaping to Cancun.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 19, 2021)

I don't fault anyone for flying off to Cancun. I know I would.
But there are a great many people who don't have the luxury.
.


----------



## Brett (Feb 19, 2021)

Texas Man Freezes To Death In Recliner

*https://www.newsweek.com/texas-man-reportedly-freezes-death-recliner-1570439*

sometimes I feel frozen in my recliner but then I wake up


----------



## MULTIZ321 (Feb 19, 2021)

The Price of Electricity in Texas Maxed Out This Week.










						The Price of Electricity in Texas Maxed Out This Week
					

Unusual cold weather gave the state’s power grid a stress test. It wasn’t prepared.




					marker.medium.com
				



.


Richard


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 19, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> Watching the Evening News every official or politician in Texas is pointing at someone else.


Not exactly.  Governor Abbott said on TV "I accept responsibility"...

George


----------



## geekette (Feb 19, 2021)

Talent312 said:


> I don't fault anyone for flying off to Cancun. I know I would.
> But there are a great many people who don't have the luxury.
> .


I do fault someone abandoning their post representing People while People are literally freezing to death.   Having the means to get somewhere warm is not the issue.


----------



## geekette (Feb 19, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Not exactly.  Governor Abbott said on TV "I accept responsibility"...
> 
> George


He sure didn't lead with that.  He had to say it when directly asked that question.  On the 18th.


----------



## Roger830 (Feb 19, 2021)

Talent312 said:


> I don't fault anyone for flying off to Cancun. I know I would.
> But there are a great many people who don't have the luxury.
> .



It seems foolish to stay in frozen Texas if someone has the means to leave.

We left cold Connecticut Jan 9 for southern Florida, missed two snow storms just this week.


----------



## theo (Feb 19, 2021)

Passepartout said:


> When all the dust settles, I think it will be shown that the Texas deregulated electric power grid is the culprit. <snip>



I feel for the plight of the people of Texas. Clearly, it's an awful situation to have to endure in the 21st century in the United States.

That said, it is a indisputable fact that former Texas Governor Rick Perry (who, ironically and inexplicably, (..ahem) "served" as Secretary of the federal Department of Energy) has loudly and proudly (but perhaps not accurately) proclaimed in reference to the power grid:
"*Texans would be without electricity for longer than three days to keep the federal government out of their business*".
O.K., then. It is now *6 *days (...and still counting) without electricity in some places in TX. Not to mention electricity costs of $9,000 per megawatt-hour . What say ye now, Mr. Perry? Still loud and proud about that Feds-free (alleged) "energy independence" in Texas?

In view of current events, you really have to question the wisdom of purposefully choosing to be a "Lone Star" on the energy grid.
Electricity "imported" from other states (...if an option) could surely have helped to avoid a whole lot of hardship and suffering there.


----------



## DannyTS (Feb 19, 2021)

*Outages Morph Into Outrage As Texans Slapped With "Mind-Blowing" Power Bills *






__





						Zerohedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 19, 2021)

An overview from the energy business perspective.









						Perfect Storm - Sustained Arctic Weather Exposes Weaknesses in Texas's Power Industry
					

There’s finally some good news for folks in Texas: it’s gradually getting warmer, and the power outages that left much of the Lone Star State in the cold and dark the past few days should keep winding down.




					rbnenergy.com


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 19, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> *Outages Morph Into Outrage As Texans Slapped With "Mind-Blowing" Power Bills *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They made a bet and lost. Nobody put a gun to their heads and said "buy this plan". I have a fixed cost plan - even though it would cost a little more per month. (20% or so.)

That's why you buy insurance. Pay a little every years for protection from the cost of a huge catastrophic loss. Or you could do without, and pocket the money. Looks good, until that catastrophic loss hits you.

But there are always people who try to "pick up nickles" in front of a steam roller. . . .


----------



## Roger830 (Feb 19, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> They made a bet and lost. Nobody put a gun to their heads and said "buy this plan". I have a fixed cost plan - even though it would cost a little more per month. (20% or so.)
> 
> That's why you buy insurance. Pay a little every years for protection from the cost of a huge catastrophic loss. Or you could do without, and pocket the money. Looks good, until that catastrophic loss hits you.
> 
> But there are always people who try to "pick up nickles" in front of a team roller. . . .



I did the same thing in July when my 6 month contract expired. Natural gas was at a low then about $1.60, now $3.10. Instead of taking 6 months electricity at about $9.40, I locked in $9.60 for 3 years.

In CT we can now have to take a fixed plan of at least 6 months after a huge jump in cost in the flexible plan one winter about 5 years ago.


----------



## Talent312 (Feb 19, 2021)

Brett said:


> Sometimes, I feel frozen in my recliner but then I wake up.



Sometimes, I feel frozen in my computer chair, and when I wake up, the screen saver's on.
.


----------



## wilma (Feb 19, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Not exactly.  Governor Abbott said on TV "I accept responsibility"...
> 
> George


after blaming wind, solar and the green new deal!


----------



## WVBaker (Feb 19, 2021)

"... and in case you were wondering, OilPrice.com ran the numbers of how much it would cost to charge a Tesla in Texas earlier this week. While a regular charge costs around $18 using a Level 1 or Level 2 charger at home, estimates showed that the surge in power prices would have cost $900."

I'm guessing that electric cars are not selling in Texas now?


----------



## bbodb1 (Feb 19, 2021)

wilma said:


> after blaming wind, solar and the green new deal!


...which are factors deserving blame in this matter as well.  

Solving this - or better said, taking measures to ensure this combination of factors does not produce a similar outcome in the future - is not going to be easy.
The Texas power grid system, green energy sources, power companies and people all share the blame in this.

Now let's fix it.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 19, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> ...which are factors deserving blame in this matter as well.
> 
> Solving this - or better said, taking measures to ensure this combination of factors does not produce a similar outcome in the future - is not going to be easy.
> The Texas power grid system, *green energy sources*, power companies and people all share the blame in this.
> ...



The green energy sources were a problem because the TX authorities failed to invest in proper set-up. It's the people in charge that failed, not the tech. Greenland, Canada and Netherlands run just fine on wind power during frigid conditions.


----------



## Sandy VDH (Feb 19, 2021)

Lots of finger pointing and lot of places to lay blame.  

Just as long as they put down the fingers and plan on fixing I would be happy.


----------



## SueDonJ (Feb 19, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The green energy sources were a problem because the TX authorities failed to invest in proper set-up. It's the people in charge that failed, not the tech. Greenland, Canada and Netherlands run just fine on wind power during frigid conditions.


As you say, the failure of wind power in this situation is due to the apparent prioritization of cost savings over proper set-up, but we don't have to go outside the US borders to find wind power being harvested in cold-weather conditions.


----------



## PigsDad (Feb 19, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> As you say, the failure of wind power in this situation is due to the apparent prioritization of cost savings over proper set-up, but we don't have to go outside the US borders to find wind power being harvested in cold-weather conditions.


Exactly.  Wyoming has lots of wind and huge wind farms that work year round.  Have you ever been to Wyoming in the dead of winter?   

Kurt


----------



## bbodb1 (Feb 19, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> The green energy sources were a problem because the TX authorities failed to invest in proper set-up.



Nonetheless, Green Energy sources were a problem.  A portion of the power generation capacity delivered by Green Energy failed when needed most *AND* there was insufficient (close to no) excess capacity from other power generation sources.   

I agree with the point about inadequate safeguards against the cold *BUT *for many reasons, it was decided the cost to install such safeguards was not worth the cost.  Had those safeguards been installed, would the price PKW generated from Green Energy sources been too expensive to be a reasonable alternative in the Texas Energy market?  In that case, would you prefer that Texas had made NO strides toward the use of Green Energy? 

Just to be absolutely clear on this, I do NOT want to see us move away from Green Energy sources - we would be silly NOT to harness wind and solar energy sources where we can.  But when the power generators in an area become dependent on an energy source (in this case, Green Energy) and cannot quickly replace that capacity when a crisis strikes, the power generators in that area have inadequate capacity.  Whether it is the fault of the market structure, the cost to implement Green Energy being too high, or some combination of these (and other) factors needs to be factually determined.  



CalGalTraveler said:


> It's the people in charge that failed, not the tech. Greenland, Canada and Netherlands run just fine on wind power during frigid conditions.



And those markets are very different from Texas.


----------



## bbodb1 (Feb 19, 2021)

PigsDad said:


> Exactly.  Wyoming has lots of wind and huge wind farms that work year round.  Have you ever been to Wyoming in the dead of winter?
> 
> Kurt



_I've aimed my truck toward it....._


----------



## MULTIZ321 (Feb 19, 2021)

As Texas deep freeze subsides, some households now face electricity bills as high as $10,000.










						As Texas deep freeze subsides, some households now face electricity bills as high as $10,000
					

“The last thing an awful lot of people need right now is a higher electric bill — and that’s unfortunately something a lot of people will get stuck with."




					www.nbcnews.com
				



.


Richard


----------



## geekette (Feb 19, 2021)

Yikes.

A payment plan for $10,000?  I don't think so.   

Automatic debit wiped out?   ouch.   this is why I don't do autopay except from my side.  I'll push, but they can't pull.   

That's an economic bombshell on top of everything else.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 19, 2021)

Yikes! I am so glad we have solar on our roof. If this outage happened we would add a backup battery wall for cloudy days and not be be at the mercy of the electric company. This may incent more Texans to go off the grid with solar.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 19, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Yikes! I am so glad we have solar on our roof. If this outage happened we would add a backup battery wall for cloudy days and not be be at the mercy of the electric company. This may incent more Texans to go off the grid with solar.



Which did absolutely no good at all in this case. 4 inches of snow all over the panels blocks all sunlight. Zero electricity, unless you wanted to get on an icy, snowy roof and try to clear them by hand, at 15 F, on what would be cloudy days anyways. . .

Roofs didn't clear until today. How much battery could you afford, and now much Li-ion do you want inside of your house? (fire hazard!) Outside at that temperature reduced the storage by at least 1/2.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 19, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> Nonetheless, Green Energy sources were a problem.  A portion of the power generation capacity delivered by Green Energy failed when needed most *AND* there was insufficient (close to no) excess capacity from other power generation sources.
> 
> I agree with the point about inadequate safeguards against the cold *BUT *for many reasons, it was decided the cost to install such safeguards was not worth the cost.  Had those safeguards been installed, would the price PKW generated from Green Energy sources been too expensive to be a reasonable alternative in the Texas Energy market?  In that case, would you prefer that Texas had made NO strides toward the use of Green Energy?
> 
> ...



Who pays for the back-up capacity? 
For the cost of building the back-up plants?
For the cost of having people on standby who know how to fire it up?
For having the fuel on-hand to run the plants?
For the cost of maintaining the plants?

None of this is free. If you look at places with a reasonable large fraction of "green" energy, they have double, triple, or more electricity costs. Just to fund the back-ups. . .


----------



## Beach57 (Feb 19, 2021)

Sandy VDH said:


> I just got power back after a rotating blackout that lasted 21 hours.  Power was off from late afternoon yesterday to early afternoon today.  So much for rotating.
> 
> I live in the Houston area.  Outside temperature low was 12F (-11C) overnight last night.  House got down to 52F (11C).  Power finally came back on and I am heating up the house expecting the power to be shut off again.
> 
> ...


So sorry. I feel your pain.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 19, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Which did absolutely no good at all in this case. 4 inches of snow all over the panels blocks all sunlight. Zero electricity, unless you wanted to get on an icy, snowy roof and try to clear them by hand, at 15 F, on what would be cloudy days anyways. . .
> 
> Roofs didn't clear until today. How much battery could you afford, and now much Li-ion do you want inside of your house? (fire hazard!) Outside at that temperature reduced the storage by at least 1/2.


You could also buy a generator for such events. 

I am curious, was the nat gas to run heaters also off in addition to the electricity?


----------



## JanT (Feb 19, 2021)

We’ve finally had to move to a hotel.  No water since Monday and the wet carpet finally began smelling so bad we just couldn’t take it anymore - it was starting to make us physically ill.
It felt good to have a shower and just relax at the hotel.

The apartment has really become unlivable so we will begin packing up tomorrow and have to make a decision where we’re going to go.  They don’t have another apartment for us so they’re letting us terminate our lease.  So....now where?  No idea.  Our plans to travel extensively are obviously blown to heck due to Covid restrictions and dangers.  

So, here we are.  But, I’m so very grateful to have only been minimally affected by this storm.  When I see what others are enduring it’s almost more than I can bear.  I don’t know how some people are going to recover from all this.  I just know that we all have to do our part to help however we can.

Stay safe everyone.


----------



## SueDonJ (Feb 19, 2021)

JanT said:


> We’ve finally had to move to a hotel.  No water since Monday and the wet carpet finally began smelling so bad we just couldn’t take it anymore - it was starting to make us physically ill.
> It felt good to have a shower and just relax at the hotel.
> 
> The apartment has really become unlivable so we will begin packing up tomorrow and have to make a decision where we’re going to go.  They don’t have another apartment for us so they’re letting us terminate our lease.  So....now where?  No idea.  Our plans to travel extensively are obviously blown to heck due to Covid restrictions and dangers.
> ...



Safe travels, Jan, and safe landings.


----------



## jehb2 (Feb 20, 2021)

No more rolling blackouts (I think). No water for 3 days and it’s likely to be another week.  

i still feel lucky.  We have plenty of food. We have plenty of drinking water because we subscribe to a delivery service.  We still have water in the tubs to flush the toilets-though I’m watching that carefully.

As I mentioned, I would have been completely caught off guard had i not heard my kids teacher say on her Zoom class that the temperature was going to drop to 8 degrees.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 20, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> You could also buy a generator for such events.
> 
> I am curious, was the nat gas to run heaters also off in addition to the electricity?



How much are you willing to pay for backup? Here's the Honda generator output/price sheet:





__





						Honda Generators: Power You Can Trust
					

Honda portable generators provide reliable power for home back up, recreation, and industrial use.  From super quiet inverter generators to construction models, Honda has the right generator for you.




					powerequipment.honda.com
				




Starts at a $1,000 for 1000 watts and goes up - and up - and up. . .  Then how are you going to use it? You can't use the existing wiring unless you are set up with an external inverter you can plug into (which with solar, you may have). Extension cords won't power the thermostat -  no way to plug them in.

I assume that, like a car, you would need to "turn them over" occasionally to keep the part from freezing in place. And you need to get fresh gasoline every month of two.

No. . . .but. . . .central heating and air conditioning requires a thermostat - which requires electricity to run. You could have nat gas and no way to burn it. Of course, if you have a fireplace, and gas logs in the fireplace. . . .and a match. . . .


----------



## Patri (Feb 20, 2021)

jehb2 said:


> As I mentioned, I would have been completely caught off guard had i not heard my kids teacher say on her Zoom class that the temperature was going to drop to 8 degrees.


Chalk one up for virtual learning!


----------



## DrQ (Feb 20, 2021)

WVBaker said:


> "... and in case you were wondering, OilPrice.com ran the numbers of how much it would cost to charge a Tesla in Texas earlier this week. While a regular charge costs around $18 using a Level 1 or Level 2 charger at home, estimates showed that the surge in power prices would have cost $900."
> 
> I'm guessing that electric cars are not selling in Texas now?


Without power, you can't pump gas either. 

Those that were short sighted and signed up with Griddy had their 'savings' wiped out in one cold snap. Those that bought yearly contracts will see an increase next time they renew. Everybody is going to pay more because ERCOT is going to mandate winterization of the infrastructure.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 20, 2021)

One official not on the hot seat yet is the Texas Railroad Commissioner. That is the organization responsible for the pipes of natural gas and petroleum in Texas. That was where we had the epic fail.

The REAL source of the power cuts was the inability to pump natural gas or provide natural gas because of frozen valves.

Northern climes can deliver natural gas in similar or more severe conditions.

I think that's where we need to start.

We saw this in Feb 2011, we passed the Winterization Bill of 2011:








						Winter storm blackouts plagued Texas in 2011, too. Recommendations made afterward went unenforced.
					

A decade ago, a winter storm exposed vulnerabilities in the Texas electric grid. Did anything really change?



					www.usatoday.com
				




This legislation had no enforcement provisions. Maybe we will learn this time.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 20, 2021)

DrQ said:


> One official not on the hot seat yet is the Texas Railroad Commissioner. That is the organization responsible for the pipes of natural gas and petroleum in Texas. That was where we had the epic fail.
> 
> The REAL source of the power cuts was the inability to pump natural gas or provide natural gas because of frozen valves.
> 
> ...



Actually, the Texas Railroad Commission is a commission with multiple members, all elected. This may sound unbelievable, but I have already been discussing potential fixes with a relative who is involved with lobbying the RRC in the recent past. Not just the fixes, but how to sell them to the RRC members. Whether anything comes of it, who knows?


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 20, 2021)

DrQ said:


> Those that bought yearly contracts will see an increase next time they renew.



Yearly contracts, probably yes depending when contract matures.  Back when I owned a single family home in Texas  and was buying electricity there were times I signed up for 24 or 36 month Fixed Rate Plans.  Often the rate charged for the longer term plans was only minutely higher that that of 12 month plans.  My guess is that those with the most months left on their contacts will be impacted far less than those with only a month or two left on their contract...

George


----------



## Sandy VDH (Feb 20, 2021)

Last time I renewed I did it for 2 years.  My contract is valid until July 2022.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 20, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> Yearly contracts, probably yes depending when contract matures.  Back when I owned a single family home in Texas  and was buying electricity there were times I signed up for 24 or 36 month Fixed Rate Plans.  Often the rate charged for the longer term plans was only minutely higher that that of 12 month plans.  My guess is that those with the most months left on their contacts will be impacted far less than those with only a month or two left on their contract...
> 
> George


While you may be under contract from the provider, I will guarantee that the DELIVERY cost will increase before that term expires. That's where we're BOHICA.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 20, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Which did absolutely no good at all in this case. 4 inches of snow all over the panels blocks all sunlight. Zero electricity, unless you wanted to get on an icy, snowy roof and try to clear them by hand, at 15 F, on what would be cloudy days anyways. . .
> 
> Roofs didn't clear until today. How much battery could you afford, and now much Li-ion do you want inside of your house? (fire hazard!) Outside at that temperature reduced the storage by at least 1/2.



Beats paying up to $10k to the electric company. At least with a wall you get ROI because once installed all the electricity your roof generates is free. Can't say that for the electric company who will keep charging you forever. You also could minimize your home energy usage during downtimes and reserve the wall energy to power the thermostat to ignite your nat gas heater or use a space heater in a small room rather that heat the entire home.

Batteries no different than in your electric car in terms of safety. Battery tech is improving and prices are falling.




Ralph Sir Edward said:


> How much are you willing to pay for backup? Here's the Honda generator output/price sheet:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agree, generators not great, but could start the furnace.

Battery wall with a fireplace is an alternative for emergencies, or solar with a link to the grid for those days when you absolutely need the power. Doubt multi-day outages from cold will happen again in TX.

With solar you have some control over your energy costs while realizing ROI for those many sunny TX days. Not sure how TX is set up for solar but in Calif any excess power we produce is purchased by the utility. Annually, at the end of the true-up period we received a several hundred dollar check from the utility. Not a great rate for the power we produce but utility customers benefit from low cost production and we get backup power for darkness/bad weather for free without having to invest in a powerwall. We haven't paid an electric bill since we installed - they pay us.

No alternatives are perfect but at least with our own solar, we have some control over our energy costs and usage. Our system has already paid for itself.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 20, 2021)

From NOAA - a list of coldest day on record in various Texas cities.

Abilene.............9 below zero...set in 1947

Amarillo...........16 below zero...set in 1899

Austin..............2 below zero...set in 1949

Beaumont……..10 degrees......set in 1906

Brownsville........12 degrees......set in 1899

Corpus Christi.....11 degrees......set in 1899

Dallas/Fort Worth....8 below zero...set in 1899

Del Rio............10 degrees......set in 1989

El Paso.............8 below zero...set in 1962

Galveston...........8 degrees..... Set in 1899

Houston.............5 degrees......set in 1930 and 1940

Lubbock............17 below zero...set in 1933

Midland/Odessa.....11 below zero...set in 1985

San Angelo..........4 below zero...set in 1989

San Antonio.........0 degrees......set in 1949

Waco................5 below zero...set in 1949 and 1899

Wichita Falls......12 below zero...set in 1947

Source - weather.gov/maf/The_Coldest_Night_in_Texas#:~:text=February%201899%20was%20a%20very%20cold%20month%2C%20thanks,Texas%20occurred%20on%20February%2012th%20of%20that%20year.

In 1899, parts of Galveston Bay had ice on it. Considered the biggest cold spell in Texas. Bigger than this one.


----------



## LakeAgs5 (Feb 20, 2021)

We were 4 days, 15 hours without power. Fortunately have a wood stove for warmth (62-66) and cooking and a small generator to charge phones, batteries for lights. It couldn’t keep the small heater by our pressure tank going so we have no water for several more days.


----------



## bbodb1 (Feb 20, 2021)

Okay, so I have went long enough without making this observation......

Everyone, please read the title of this thread in another light.....


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 20, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> Okay, so I have went long enough without making this observation......
> 
> Everyone, please read the title of this thread in another light.....



Isn't that getting a bit personal? I think that it is between me and my honey. . . .


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Feb 20, 2021)

DrQ said:


> ERCOT got caught with its pants down in starting up gas powered electrical generation plant in single digit conditions.
> 20 20 hindsight, but they should have been spinning up the plants before it got really cold. Texas is used to bringing additional power online in 100+ weather, 5 degrees, not so much.


Diesel engines won’t generally start once it gets really cold. That is why you will hear /  see diesel trucks
idling for long stretches in cold climates, and truck stops sell anti-gel additive .
@Passepartout / Jim likely can add info this.

I drove used early 80’s Mercedes diesel wagons from about  2004-2012.
I got caught not plugging in the engine warmer system a few times when the night time temp was below 10 F
& guess what - “no could  start engine”.

I guess no one at ERCOT knows anyone who knows anything about cold and engine’s / what kind of SILOS do they all inhabit. [ the kind where the paycheck shows up regardless of your lack of effort ]

I know a gas turbine isn’t a diesel engine ...... but (IMO) a whole bunch of somebodies had deep brain freeze at ERCOT.


----------



## TheHolleys87 (Feb 20, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> Okay, so I have went long enough without making this observation......
> 
> Everyone, please read the title of this thread in another light.....


That reminds me of post-Hurricane Ike in Sept. 2008, when power was off and everyone was sleeping with their windows open.  Depending on how close together the houses were, we knew what our neighbors were doing.

PS in relation to the original topic of this thread, we installed an emergency generator last spring, for hurricanes, of course.  So we had power and heat throughout. We did have a pipe burst on Tuesday afternoon and had to shut off our water; we were getting to the edge of being able to cope with that but managed to find a plumber who could come cap it off Thursday afternoon.  Our water system was fine, never needed to issue a boil-water notice.  

Our son works in a local hospital's ED and was there from Sunday afternoon until Wednesday evening.  The hospital came close to running out of food for staff because their normal supplier couldn't deliver.  His wife ended up moving to a hotel Tuesday night with their 3 kids and her 2 nieces, whose parents were out of town and couldn't get back.  Their power was off from early Tuesday morning until Thursday - we invited them to come here Tuesday evening, then our pipe broke, so we had to rescind the invitation.  It's likely they wouldn't have been able to get here anyway; they live 45 minutes away, when there isn't any ice, and there was plenty in their way that afternoon.

Our daughter lives in the DFW area and endured the rolling blackouts (power off more than on) but had water - with a boil water notice in effect for several days.  I think she and her husband were the most miserable.

In other words, we were incredibly fortunate.  None of us had a medical emergency; everyone is healthy, and life is slowly getting back to normal.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 20, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Diesel engines won’t generally start once it gets really cold. That is why you will hear /  see diesel trucks
> idling for long stretches in cold climates, and truck stops sell anti-gel additive .
> @Passepartout / Jim likely can add info this.
> 
> ...


Turns out, the problem was getting natural gas to the power plants. They don't store the gas above ground and the wells became frozen. Also, they lost power, so they could not pump out gas and pressurize the lines.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 20, 2021)

DrQ said:


> Turns out, the problem was getting natural gas to the power plants. They don't store the gas above ground and the wells became frozen. Also, they lost power, so they could not pump out gas and pressurize the lines.



And they had to use electricity to warm with, instead of the nat gas on site. . . . The Clean Air Act, you know. . . .


----------



## DrQ (Feb 20, 2021)

If it just could have held out 30 days longer:








						The Only Carbon Coal Capture Plant in the U.S. Just Closed
					

Last week, NRG Energy announced that it would shut down the only commercial carbon capture project in the U.S., ironically due to low oil prices. The closure of the Petra Nova plant may be one of the last gasps for the technology in the U.S.




					earther.gizmodo.com


----------



## SueDonJ (Feb 20, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> Okay, so I have went long enough without making this observation......
> 
> Everyone, please read the title of this thread in another light.....



The cool kids don't call it that anymore. These days it's, "hooking up."


----------



## bbodb1 (Feb 20, 2021)

SueDonJ said:


> The cool kids don't call it that anymore. These days it's, "hooking up."


Well, Susan!


----------



## DannyTS (Feb 20, 2021)

__





						Cascend: Data Shows Wind-Power Was Chief Culprit Of Texas Grid Collapse | ZeroHedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 20, 2021)

Um.... Brought to you pseudo-science publishers in Bulgaria (they must understand TX, right?) that have been quoted as saying that _Vladimir Putin=greatest leader in the history of statecraft.”_  @DannyTS Please stop wasting our time on publications that lack credibility. FWIW this article sounds like it was written by the fossil fuel industry association.


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 20, 2021)

DrQ said:


> While you may be under contract from the provider, I will guarantee that the DELIVERY cost will increase before that term expires.



It has been a long time since I owned a single family home and bought electricity in Texas which means I could be wrong here.  But I think the contract rate included the delivery cost...

Incidentally my Son's provider here in Texas is a Co-Op.  The Management of the Co-Op just put out an announcement that because they use LT Contracts to buy power their rate will stay at 8.5 cents per kWh for the next 18-24 months.  Note that they have no delivery charges above the 8.5 cents.  

George


----------



## DrQ (Feb 20, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> It has been a long time since I owned a single family home and bought electricity in Texas which means I could be wrong here.  But I think the contract rate included the delivery cost...
> 
> Incidentally my Son's provider here in Texas is a Co-Op.  The Management of the Co-Op just put out an announcement that because they use LT Contracts to buy power their rate will stay at 8.5 cents per kWh for the next 18-24 months.  Note that they have no delivery charges above the 8.5 cents.
> 
> George


My TXU bill is split into two parts. TXU and ONCOR. ONCOR is my delivery provider no matter who I choose as my provider.

If I remember correctly, there are parts of TX which did not deregulate and are still under CO-OPs. Thus you have no choice of providers.


			
				Wiki said:
			
		

> As a result, 85%[1] of Texas power consumers (those served by a company not owned by a municipality or a utility cooperative) could choose their electricity service from a variety of retail electric providers (REPs), including the incumbent utility. The incumbent utility in the area still owns and maintains the local power lines (and is the company to call in the event of a power outage) and was not subject to deregulation. Customers served by cooperatives or municipal utilities could choose an alternate REP only if the utility has opted in to deregulation; to date,[_when?_] only the area served by the Nueces Electric Cooperative has chosen to opt in.


----------



## DannyTS (Feb 20, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Um.... Brought to you pseudo-science publishers in Bulgaria (they must understand TX, right?) that have been quoted as saying that _Vladimir Putin=greatest leader in the history of statecraft.”_  @DannyTS Please stop wasting our time on publications that lack credibility. FWIW this article sounds like it was written by the fossil fuel industry association.


Read the graphs. The article concludes:

"The simple 5-step solution according to Cascend:


Winterize equipment
Require power reserve
Connect the Texas grid better
Add solar with storage (storage is key)
And add more natural gas"

What is the part that you do not agree with and you think is written by the fossil fuel lobby?


----------



## DrQ (Feb 20, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Um.... Brought to you pseudo-science publishers in Bulgaria (they must understand TX, right?) that have been quoted as saying that _Vladimir Putin=greatest leader in the history of statecraft.”_  @DannyTS Please stop wasting our time on publications that lack credibility. FWIW this article sounds like it was written by the fossil fuel industry association.


They IGNORE the fact that all wind energy is backed by on-demand gas fired plants for when the wind does NOT blow. We aren't completely stupid.


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 20, 2021)

DrQ said:


> My TXU bill is split into two parts. TXU and ONCOR. ONCOR is my delivery provider no matter who I choose as my provider.


I bought my electricity on the State's Power to Choose Website.  My recollection is that the quote from Gexa Energy (my last provider) before they went 100% renewable, combined both energy and delivery.  Like I said it was a long time ago thus I may be wrong but I don't think so....

George


----------



## DrQ (Feb 20, 2021)

bogey21 said:


> I bought my electricity on the State's Power to Choose Website.  My recollection is that the quote from Gexa Energy (my last provider) before they went 100% renewable, combined both energy and delivery.  Like I said it was a long time ago thus I may be wrong but I don't think so....
> 
> George


From a Griddy bill:




Note: TDU Delivery Charges = $82.15

In our area, ONCOR is the Delivery company.


----------



## DannyTS (Feb 20, 2021)

DrQ said:


> They IGNORE the fact that all wind energy is backed by on-demand gas fired plants for when the wind does NOT blow. We aren't completely stupid.


It looks pretty clear to me. From the article:


----------



## DrQ (Feb 20, 2021)

DannyTS said:


> It looks pretty clear to me
> 
> [Massive graph shout removed]


Let me repeat ... Our wind power is backed with RESERVE gas on demand generation for when the wind does not blow, by design. Then the gas wells froze.

Your point?

Now you could say that shutting down COAL fired plants, where they store the fuel on site, was a contributing factor. But you can't find a graph on that.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Feb 20, 2021)

jehb2 said:


> We don’t have any running water.  Fortunately we filled the bathtubs so we’re able to flush the toilets.



Your hot water tank contains 30-40 gallons of usable water. **
It should have a tap to drain at the bottom to access if needed.

** learned about this option during the 2003 blackout
[ that affected 55 million people in  8 US states and Ontario]


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Feb 20, 2021)

JanT said:


> The apartment has really become unlivable so we will begin packing up tomorrow and have to make a decision where we’re going to go.  They don’t have another apartment for us so they’re letting us terminate our lease.  So....now where?  No idea.  Our plans to travel extensively are obviously blown to heck due to Covid restrictions and dangers.
> 
> So, here we are.  But, I’m so very grateful to have only been minimally affected by this storm.  When I see what others are enduring it’s almost more than I can bear.  I don’t know how some people are going
> 
> Stay safe everyone.



Time for [temporary] full time Timesharing ?


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 20, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Your hot water tank contains 30-40 gallons of usable water. **
> It should have a tap to drain at the bottom to access if needed.
> 
> ** learned about this option during the 2003 blackout
> [ that affected 55 million people in  8 US states and Ontario]



Good point. We almost purchased a tankless but decided that a traditional tank heater for emergencies would be better.


----------



## JanT (Feb 20, 2021)

That was our original plan last year when we sold our house but Covid has thrown a huge monkey wrench in that.  We're trying to be safe, still enjoy life, and not get too discouraged.  Because we don't think we're going to be able to do the kind of traveling we really want to do for at least 18 months (most likely), we're starting to think we probably should just go ahead and buy another house where we want to put down roots and get on with life instead of living in limbo.  So, we're going to continue our recent house hunting and see how that works out.



T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Time for [temporary] full time Timesharing ?


----------



## Tank (Feb 20, 2021)

Make sure you turn off the breaker to the electric hot water tank till you are able to fill up the tank.
When the electric comes back on it will fry the upper heating element  without the water in it.

Dave


----------



## DrQ (Feb 20, 2021)

*How Much Longer Will DFW-Area Store Shelves Be Nearly Empty Following Winter Storms?*








						How Much Longer Will DFW-Area Store Shelves Be Nearly Empty Following Winter Storms?
					

"I know it's unnerving for customers when they come in the store and it doesn't look like the grocery store they know and love," said a spokesperson for Tom Thumb and Albertsons.




					dfw.cbslocal.com


----------



## Happytravels (Feb 21, 2021)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> To all the Texans and others who may be experiencing severe cold weather;  Don't forget to leave all your faucets running to help prevent frozen pipes should you lose your heat source.
> 
> Frozen pipes are not what you want to deal with if you can possibly avoid it.....
> 
> ...


We also live in the Houston area.  We took all the precautions we could.  Left water dripping opened cabinet doors and wrapped pipes, put more blankets on the bed etc.  We still  had a busted pipe.  We have lived in this house for 32 years and have never had this issue.  No water and electric for days. We both work in a grocery store and were not able to report to work for three days due to icy roads.  The store is a mess and we are trying to RESTOCK as fast as we can.  We normally get deliveries from Dallas but I hear the warehouse is down and are now getting our trucks for AZ which take approx 36 hours to get.  Please have patients' for all the courtesy clerks and store workers they are doing the best they can, even with issues at home we went to work to serve the PEOPLE!!


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 21, 2021)

DrQ said:


> *How Much Longer Will DFW-Area Store Shelves Be Nearly Empty Following Winter Storms?*



I went to my local Target yesterday.  All coolers and refrigerated units were 100% empty.  My guess is that they lost power and decided it was unsafe to sell all items that lost cooling or refrigeration...

George


----------



## DrQ (Feb 21, 2021)

Happytravels said:


> We also live in the Houston area.  We took all the precautions we could.  Left water dripping opened cabinet doors and wrapped pipes, put more blankets on the bed etc.  We still  had a busted pipe.  We have lived in this house for 32 years and have never had this issue.  No water and electric for days. We both work in a grocery store and were not able to report to work for three days due to icy roads.  The store is a mess and we are trying to RESTOCK as fast as we can.  We normally get deliveries from Dallas but I hear the warehouse is down and are now getting our trucks for AZ which take approx 36 hours to get.  Please have patients' for all the courtesy clerks and store workers they are doing the best they can, even with issues at home we went to work to serve the PEOPLE!!


Bless you, you now have TWO tough jobs to do. When we saw Kroger, Walmart and Target closed, we knew it was going to be bad.

I imagine chicken and eggs will be scarce for a while as I image all local poultry farms lost their flocks.

Milk was being dumped by farmers because they could not get the milk to market.

This is just been horrible.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 21, 2021)

OOOOh, Major flaw in the disaster of a plan:




__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				





> Power was, unsurprisingly, diverted to hospitals and nursing homes. Ercot, as the grid manager is known, was staving off utter catastrophe, its chief executive later said.
> 
> But leaving shale fields like the Permian Basin dark had an unintended consequence. Producers who depend on electricity to power their operations were left with no way to pump natural gas. And that gas was needed more than ever to generate electricity.
> 
> As one executive described: It was like a death spiral.



Talk about a negative feedback loop.

If you want to prank a couple with a dual control electric blanket: Swap the controls.
That's the definition of an inherently unstable system.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 21, 2021)

*Ed Hirs Has Been Predicting This Mess for Years*
The Houston-based energy economist is our blackout Cassandra. Will state officials finally heed his advice?








						Ed Hirs Has Been Predicting This Mess for Years
					

The Houston-based energy economist is our blackout Cassandra. Will state officials finally heed his advice?




					www.texasmonthly.com


----------



## DrQ (Feb 21, 2021)

The first wave was the cold
The second wave was the shortages
The third wave is the water from the frozen pipes
The fourth wave will be the upcoming insurance increases

*Winter Storm Uri to Generate Billions in Insured Losses: Moody’s*


> The Insurance Council of Texas (ICT) has said the storm “may be the costliest winter weather event in the state’s history.” Hundreds of thousands of claims are expected as a result of the storm, according to ICT spokesperson Camille Garcia. The Independent Insurance Agents of Texas said in a statement on its website that it “is expected to be the largest insurance claim event in Texas history.”











						Winter Storm Uri to Generate Billions in Insured Losses: Moody's
					

The massive winter storm that barreled through the mid-section of the United States and across the South in mid-February, hitting Texas particularly hard,




					www.insurancejournal.com


----------



## WVBaker (Feb 21, 2021)

For many up north, we call that, "Typical Winter".


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 21, 2021)

Here's the Wall Street Journal (news not opinion page) assessment:

"_...A fundamental flaw in the freewheeling Texas electricity market left millions powerless and freezing in the dark this week during a historic cold snap.

The core problem: Power providers can reap rewards by supplying electricity to Texas customers, but they aren’t required to do it and face no penalties for failing to deliver during a lengthy emergency.

That led to the fiasco that left millions of people in the nation’s second-most-populous state without power for days. A severe storm paralyzed almost every energy source, from power plants to wind turbines, because their owners hadn’t made the investments needed to produce electricity in subfreezing temperatures...."_

Full Article: (may be behind a paywall)









						The Texas Freeze: Why the Power Grid Failed
					

The state’s electricity system was considered a model. This week’s outages revealed shortcomings in the market structure, including with incentives to producers.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## Papa2015 (Feb 21, 2021)

On another note, I live in South West Fort Worth. I went to the grocery store yesterday and I was amazed at how bare the shelves still are. No meat, water, eggs, bread or milk.


----------



## WVBaker (Feb 21, 2021)

Mother Nature always has a way to show, even though you think you're in charge, you're really not. I hope this is a wake up call.

*Texans have long prided themselves on bucking federal oversight and standing apart from the rest of the country.*

"Texans have long seen this independence as a point of pride. Texas’ independent grid was created a century ago in the image that Texans have of themselves: standalone, free from federal oversight and largely deregulated. But this week’s blackout has come as a rebuke to that idea—or, at least, highlighted the limits of Texas as a brash, go-it-alone state, big enough not to have to rely on the rest of America."

"Some states like Georgia require operators to maintain energy reserves almost double what Texas requires. This costs energy companies more money, but it also ensures that a grid is more reliable."

"Texas, which has no state income tax, has avoided budgeting funds to prepare the grid for winter, knowing that customers would have faced higher bills."

"After a major winter storm knocked out power in Texas almost exactly a decade ago, federal regulators called on the state to fortify its grid against deep freezes."

"Even at the height of the crisis this week, Rick Perry said Texans would rather go without power for days than deal with federal energy regulations."









						How a Winter Storm Tested Texas’ Go-It-Alone Attitude
					

Texans have long prided themselves on bucking federal oversight and standing apart from the rest of the country. But this week revealed the risk that comes with that independence.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 21, 2021)

I just came in from outside. Partly cloudy and 64 degrees. . .


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 21, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> I don’t have a dog in this fight so please don’t shoot the messenger. After reading the initial post, I knew I had seen an article this morning that disputed frozen windmills were the main cause of the power outages in Texas. Although, it is true that many were frozen, it also appears there were freeze problems affecting most electricity producers in the state, regardless of type. According to this article, the windmill issue is only responsible for 13% of the total outages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, there were many cases of natural gas processing plants (that feed electric utilities) freezing up.  They froze up because THEY WERE INCLUDED IN THE ROLLING BLACKOUTS.  Painful to consider the “thinking” that went into this.
Texas has had cold winters many times before, some colder and of a longer duration than this recent cold snap.  But this was the first cold snap that had so much reliance on windmills and that basically relegated natural gas generating plants as “backup” to wind.  When the windmills froze up (immediately), they couldn’t get the gas plants on line fast enough plus the fiasco of submitting them to the rolling blackouts.


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 21, 2021)

amycurl said:


> I think, in the era of climate change, we need to expect “100 year events” every decade or so. That’s certainly been the case so far in terms of “100 year floods” and “100 years hurricanes.”
> 
> And maybe Texas could have learned more from the Enron scandal than it did
> 
> ...


This wasn’t a 100 year event.  Just a cold snap.  Been through many here in the Houston area.


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 21, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> It's not wind power because cold places like the Netherlands and Greenland run on wind during frigid conditions. The TX power operators neglected to invest in winterizing all TX power sources (traditional and wind). Epic Fail because the same happened in 2011 and 1989. They were told in 2011 to winterize but ignored.


I don’t remember this happening in 1989 or 2011.  In fact I only remember losing power during hurricane events.  Never in winter.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 21, 2021)

WVBaker said:


> For many up north, we call that, "Typical Winter".


Your welcome to come down to experience one of our "Typical Hurricanes"


----------



## bogey21 (Feb 21, 2021)

WVBaker said:


> "Even at the height of the crisis this week, Rick Perry said Texans would rather go without power for days than deal with federal energy regulations."



Probably true...

George


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 21, 2021)

Devils Advocate:  If Texans would rather go without federal energy regulations, then why are they accepting Federal relief that is paid for by taxpayers outside of Texas?


----------



## Rolltydr (Feb 21, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> Yes, there were many cases of natural gas processing plants (that feed electric utilities) freezing up.  They froze up because THEY WERE INCLUDED IN THE ROLLING BLACKOUTS.  Painful to consider the “thinking” that went into this.
> Texas has had cold winters many times before, some colder and of a longer duration than this recent cold snap.  But this was the first cold snap that had so much reliance on windmills and that basically relegated natural gas generating plants as “backup” to wind.  When the windmills froze up (immediately), they couldn’t get the gas plants on line fast enough plus the fiasco of submitting them to the rolling blackouts.


So, natural gas, which produces more than twice the energy of the windmill farms, is only used as a backup to the windmills? That makes no sense.








						What percentage of Texas energy is renewable? Breaking down the state's power sources from gas to wind.
					

Millions of Texans are experiencing a power outage. What energy sources contribute to the state's power grid?



					www.statesman.com


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 21, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> So, natural gas, which produces more than twice the energy of the windmill farms, is only used as a backup to the windmills? That makes no sense.



Solar and wind have become cheaper to produce than natural gas. Since the producers are profit driven, that may be a reason. 





__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## DrQ (Feb 21, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> So, natural gas, which produces more than twice the energy of the windmill farms, is only used as a backup to the windmills? That makes no sense.


There must be a RESERVE natural gas generation capacity equal to windmill farms and solar because it is considered "intermittent". That is how it is designed.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 21, 2021)

I've not read much about the details of the history of power generation in Texas, but the little I've read makes me wonder if it's now time for Texas to require power utilities to winterize their infrastructure. If they don't, this will likely happen again. And yes, this will certainly increase your (relatively) inexpensive electrical costs. Those of you who live in Texas, do you agree this should be done now?


----------



## WVBaker (Feb 21, 2021)

DrQ said:


> Your welcome to come down to experience one of our "Typical Hurricanes"



No thanks however, I would wager that I've been through more hurricanes than Texas has been through events like this.


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 21, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Devils Advocate:  If Texans would rather go without federal energy regulations, then why are they accepting Federal relief that is paid for by taxpayers outside of Texas?


 For the same reason we pay Federal taxes. . . .


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 21, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> So, natural gas, which produces more than twice the energy of the windmill farms, is only used as a backup to the windmills? That makes no sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Welcome to the world of green energy.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 21, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> I've not read much about the details of the history of power generation in Texas, but the little I've read makes me wonder if it's now time for Texas to require power utilities to winterize their infrastructure. If they don't, this will likely happen again. And yes, this will certainly increase your (relatively) inexpensive electrical costs. Those of you who live in Texas, do you agree this should be done now?


The more that is coming out, it looks like most DR plans with which I've worked - look great on paper but aren't worth a crap.

In 2011, the shortfalls were identified and supposedly addressed. The glaring flaw in the disaster of a plan was to declare natural gas production as critical. Texas version of Chernobyl. Disjointed view of a complex system.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 21, 2021)

DrQ said:


> The more that is coming out, it looks like most DR plans with which I've worked - look great on paper but aren't worth a crap.
> 
> In 2011, the shortfalls were identified and supposedly addressed. The glaring flaw in the disaster of a plan was to declare natural gas production as critical. Texas version of Chernobyl. Disjointed view of a complex system.



Well, as others have pointed out, if windmills (and more) work in winter climates, it can work in Texas, too.


----------



## jehb2 (Feb 21, 2021)

We now have running water but we still have to boil it.  I know we’re fine but part of me doesn’t want to pull the plug (literally) on the on the  water in the bathtubs.


----------



## Brett (Feb 21, 2021)

Here come the ERCOT lawsuits ..

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/crime/article/*ERCOT-Entergy-Texas-sued-by-family-*of-Conroe-boy-15966408.php


----------



## DrQ (Feb 22, 2021)

Brett said:


> Here come the ERCOT lawsuits ..
> 
> https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/crime/article/*ERCOT-Entergy-Texas-sued-by-family-*of-Conroe-boy-15966408.php


This is the bellwether case:


> Panda sued ERCOT in 2016, alleging fraud, negligent misrepresentation and breach of fiduciary duty, seeking $2.7 billion in damages. ERCOT, in making its *sovereign immunity claim*, has countered that because power generation fees fund its operations that any verdict ordering it to pay damages ultimately would saddle customers with higher electricity prices.
> 
> The Texas Supreme Court has not yet set a hearing date for the case.


 If the Republican TSC rules in favor of ERCOT in its *sovereign immunity claim*, it will make suing ERCOT like suing a state for damages. Very difficult.

Given the current outrage, the TSC could blink, but I would doubt so because that would open up the floodgates for insurance companies to pursue claims.









						Blog: Texas Supreme Court to Consider ERCOT Sovereign Immunity - Texas Coalition for Affordable Power
					

A state's primary power grid operator faces a lawsuit that could determine whether it faces future legal liability.



					tcaptx.com
				











						ERCOT can’t be sued. State Supreme Court could change that.
					

The Texas Supreme Court has agreed to review a lower court’s ruling that the state...




					www.houstonchronicle.com


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 22, 2021)

moved to different thread


----------



## DrQ (Feb 22, 2021)

*Thousands of Texas electric customers will be involuntarily switched to new providers, as companies fail*
The Texas Public Utility Commission takes steps to limit exposure to some customers from the costs of this emergency.








						Thousands of Texas electric customers will be involuntarily switched to new providers, as companies fail
					

The Texas Public Utility Commission takes steps to limit exposure to some customers from the costs of this emergency.




					www.khou.com


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 22, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Devils Advocate:  If Texans would rather go without federal energy regulations, then why are they accepting Federal relief that is paid for by taxpayers outside of Texas?


Probably because they pay federal taxes.


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 22, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Well, as others have pointed out, if windmills (and more) work in winter climates, it can work in Texas, too.


Windmills never work when the wind isn’t blowing.  Nowhere in the world.  To rely on them during critical times of the year (anytime electric outages can risk lives) is the height of folly.


----------



## WVBaker (Feb 22, 2021)

How do Wind Turbines Work Without Wind
					

How do Wind Turbines Work Without Wind, The fact is, if they are turning, there must have been some wind blowing. It could be just slightly windy; it only takes a slight breeze of to turn a turbine. Or it could simply be that...



					www.energywarden.com


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 22, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> Probably because they pay federal taxes.



It bothers me that poor policy and planning decisions by the electric utilities and regulators get rewarded (i.e. they get paid) by U.S. Government bailouts. Especially since TX made these policies with the notion of no federal intervention and free market policy.  They mismanaged the system and set the policy, they should bear some or most of the burden of cost with some fed assistance (with strings attached to prevent this from happening again.) If some customers walk from their bills and the utilities companies don't get paid, there should be no credit implications for the consumer. Also makes me wonder if some of the suppliers were price gouging.


----------



## WVBaker (Feb 22, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> Windmills never work when the wind isn’t blowing.  Nowhere in the world.  To rely on them during critical times of the year (anytime electric outages can risk lives) is the height of folly.


"Contrary to claims by Governor Greg Abbott and others, roughly half of the state’s wind turbines continued to operate, and without them the crisis would have been worse."









						The Texas Blackout Is the Story of a Disaster Foretold
					

Those in charge of Texas’s deregulated power sector were warned again and again that the electric grid was vulnerable.




					www.texasmonthly.com


----------



## DrQ (Feb 22, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> It bothers me that poor policy and planning decisions by the electric utilities and regulators get rewarded (i.e. they get paid) by U.S. Government bailouts. Especially since TX made these policies with the notion of no federal intervention and free market policy.  They mismanaged the system and set the policy, they should bear some or most of the burden of cost with some fed assistance (with strings attached to prevent this from happening again.) If some customers walk from their bills and the companies don't get paid, there should be no credit implications for the consumer.


What about the people burned out of their homes by PGE? Another mismanaged utility.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 22, 2021)

PG&E has been sued and is paying.









						PG&E Agrees To Pay $11 Billion Insurance Settlement Over California Wildfires
					

The deal, which a bankruptcy court must approve, covers most of the claims from the Camp Fire in 2018 and Northern California wine country fires in 2017. Insurance companies had sought $20 billion.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 22, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> It bothers me that poor policy and planning decisions by the electric utilities and regulators get rewarded (i.e. they get paid) by U.S. Government bailouts. Especially since TX made these policies with the notion of no federal intervention and free market policy.  They mismanaged the system and set the policy, they should bear some or most of the burden of cost with some fed assistance (with strings attached to prevent this from happening again.)



Not all the poor decisions were made at state level. Some were at Federal level.

Years ago, well pipe heating was done by bleeding off a little natural gas from the well and burning it on site to keep the pipes warm. The US Clean Air Act stopped that procedure, and it had to be replaced by electric heating. When the load shedding started. . . .


----------



## DrQ (Feb 22, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> Not all the poor decisions were made at state level. Some were at Federal level.
> 
> Years ago, well pipe heating was done by bleeding off a little natural gas from the well and burning it on site to keep the pipes warm. The US Clean Air Act stopped that procedure, and it had to be replaced by electric heating. When the load shedding started. . . .


Also, many wells are "sour" with hydrogen sulfide. When you use it for pipe heating of small gas turbines for generating electricity at the well and along the pipe emit sulfur compounds which are controlled by the EPA.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 22, 2021)

BTW...The devastating Paradise Camp Fire in California started on Federal forest land.



			https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article235501067.html


----------



## DrQ (Feb 22, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> PG&E has been sued and is paying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PG&E will write the check, but their customer's will actually PAY.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 22, 2021)

FWIW...We have solar so not affected by PG&E electric rates. Our electricity is free. But yes that will probably be passed along to utility customers. Would increase the ROI on solar installations so would incent more solar to be installed.

Agree that possibly the TX customers will pay for this debacle. Lawsuits could also emerge.


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 22, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> It bothers me that poor policy and planning decisions by the electric utilities and regulators get rewarded (i.e. they get paid) by U.S. Government bailouts. Especially since TX made these policies with the notion of no federal intervention and free market policy.  They mismanaged the system and set the policy, they should bear some or most of the burden of cost with some fed assistance (with strings attached to prevent this from happening again.) If some customers walk from their bills and the utilities companies don't get paid, there should be no credit implications for the consumer. Also makes me wonder if some of the suppliers were price gouging.


Nail on the head.  Texas politicians/bureaucrats have been pushing “green” (read unreliable) energy sources for years.  They are cheap sources of energy (as long as they are subsidized) and supposedly have an extremely small carbon footprint (which is debatable.). But, as long as they are subsidized, they are a cheaper source of electricity than natural gas.  Hopefully Texas will, while continuing to invest in “green” energy, set policies that will ensure grid reliability during outlier events, such as extreme heat, hurricanes, and frigid temperatures.
Unfortunately all states have their hands out during catastrophes,  Texas is no exception.  Tornados, flooding events, hurricanes and frigid weather are all common in our state.


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 22, 2021)

WVBaker said:


> "Contrary to claims by Governor Greg Abbott and others, roughly half of the state’s wind turbines continued to operate, and without them the crisis would have been worse."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Without them Texas would have been relying on natural gas (as it used to do) instead of using it as a “backup” source of power and there would have no statewide power outage at all.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 22, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> Without them Texas would have been relying on natural gas (as it used to do) instead of using it as a “backup” source of power and there would have no statewide power outage at all.


Riddle me this Batman:
With wholesale electric prices going through the roof, don't you think that any natural gas fired electricity provider would have spun up for the cash grab? Why is that?


----------



## SmithOp (Feb 22, 2021)

John Oliver had his usual funny take on the crisis this week, caution strong language.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 22, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> Windmills never work when the wind isn’t blowing.  Nowhere in the world.  To rely on them during critical times of the year (anytime electric outages can risk lives) is the height of folly.



Not at all relevant to the point I was making, but nice try at changing the topic.


----------



## CalGalTraveler (Feb 22, 2021)

With the exception of solar in space, I don't think anyone has said green sources of power should be 100%. Should be AND not OR. The problem is that Texas didn't plan for the AND. Their backup failed miserably.


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 22, 2021)

DrQ said:


> Riddle me this Batman:
> With wholesale electric prices going through the roof, don't you think that any natural gas fired electricity provider would have spun up for the cash grab? Why is that?


Ok Robin.  Many of the gas processing plants that feed the power plants were offline for maintenance or other issue (they don’t start up like a car), and many of these gas plants were froze up because they were subject to the rolling blackouts that were being used to protect the grid.  Only in Gotham City does a person give 40% of their business to one entity (a “maybe” source like windmills/solar) AND expect another entity (that provides a guaranteed source) to “stand by” (at zero revenue) and be ready in case the unreliable source fails.  And then think that these plants fire up like a car.


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 22, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> With the exception of solar in space, I don't think anyone has said green sources of power should be 100%. Should be AND not OR. The problem is that Texas didn't plan for the AND. Their backup failed miserably.


Here we agree.  Absolutely poor planning.  Over schooled under educated morons with no “real” world experience.  Utility providers have warned about this for several years.


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 22, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Not at all relevant to the point I was making, but nice try at changing the topic.


Why thank you!!  No change of topic, just riffing on your point.  I guess your point, that windmills can work in winter climates means they can and should have worked in Texas.  My point was that it doesn’t matter what season it is, if the wind isnt blowing, the windmills aren’t producing electricity, no matter how winterized they are.  Which means unreliable.


----------



## geist1223 (Feb 22, 2021)

CalGalTraveler said:


> Their backup failed miserably.



Texas had a backup?


----------



## SmithOp (Feb 22, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> Texas had a backup?



Well they have a self contained grid, so if the whole state had not froze up... Regional outages could be handled by transfers from other parts of the state. Being off the national grid stung them in the bee-hind.


----------



## geist1223 (Feb 22, 2021)

SmithOp said:


> Well they have a self contained grid, so if the whole state had not froze up... Regional outages could be handled by transfers from other parts of the state. Being off the national grid stung them in the bee-hind.



Ah but they have their independence. Don't need no stinkin National grid to help.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 22, 2021)

geist1223 said:


> Texas had a backup?


Yes, wind and solar are intermittent sources, there is natural gas reserve capacity at the ready or that was the plan until ERCOT turned off power to the production wells and pipeline compressors.


----------



## DrQ (Feb 22, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> Ok Robin.  Many of the gas processing plants that feed the power plants were offline for maintenance or other issue (they don’t start up like a car), *and many of these gas plants were froze up because they were subject to the rolling blackouts that were being used to protect the grid. *


BINGO! 

An inherently unstable system. The natural gas production was not categorized as CRITICAL. It may not have needed outside power at one point, but when the two became interdependent, it looks as if the plan was not updated.


Left hand - ERCOT
Right hand - TRRC
I bet the two don't communicate well.

It would have fallen over with or without green energy. Demand went up faster than the loss of wind energy. 

-Edward, not robin


----------



## bbodb1 (Feb 22, 2021)

DrQ said:


> BINGO!
> 
> An inherently unstable system. The natural gas production was not categorized as CRITICAL. It may not have needed outside power at one point, but when the two became interdependent, it looks as if the plan was not updated.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you should have signed this _Alfred!_


----------



## DrQ (Feb 22, 2021)

bbodb1 said:


> Perhaps you should have signed this _Alfred!_


I prefer Edward


----------



## dagger1 (Feb 22, 2021)

DrQ said:


> BINGO!
> 
> An inherently unstable system. The natural gas production was not categorized as CRITICAL. It may not have needed outside power at one point, but when the two became interdependent, it looks as if the plan was not updated.
> 
> ...


I guess we will have to disagree.  There would have been no failure or danger to the grid if natural gas was the primary source (thus all the gas plants would have been running suppling fuel to the electric producers) and the wind turbines were the back up source.  There would have been no fiasco trying to bring gas plants online, they would have all been online.


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 22, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> Why thank you!!  No change of topic, just riffing on your point.  I guess your point, that windmills can work in winter climates means they can and should have worked in Texas.  My point was that it doesn’t matter what season it is, if the wind isnt blowing, the windmills aren’t producing electricity, no matter how winterized they are.  Which means unreliable.



Windmills are a proven energy source. Your continuing attempt to change the discussion from a failure to winterize their equipment to dispute the ability for windmills to work is not going to fly. For grins, here are a few links to support these facts. Face it, Texas utterly failed, from top to bottom - didn't spend the money as per recommendations and prioritized profits over infrastructure (which, fwiw, is a problem in many regions and not just in Texas). 









						Wind is a growing part of the electricity mix in Texas
					






					www.eia.gov
				



- in 2019 "Texas had more wind capacity than any other U.S. state. If Texas were a country, it would have had the fifth-highest installed wind capacity in the world" 





__





						U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis
					






					www.eia.gov
				



- "Texas also has abundant renewable energy resources and is first in the nation in wind-generated electricity."
- "Wind-powered generation in Texas has rapidly increased during the past two decades. In 2019, wind energy provided more than one-sixth of Texas' generation."
- "Texas leads the nation in wind-powered electricity generation, producing almost three-tenths of the U.S. total in 2019."









						Wind power in Texas - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



- "Wind power in Texas, a portion of total energy in Texas, consists of over 150 wind farms, which together have a total nameplate capacity of over 30,000 MW (as of 2020)."





__





						WINDExchange: Wind Energy in Texas
					





					windexchange.energy.gov
				



- shows wind power generates 17.41% of power in Texas





__





						WINDExchange: Texas 80-Meter Wind Resource Map
					





					windexchange.energy.gov
				



- this map shows the annual average wind speed at 80m in Texas. 
- "Areas with annual average wind speeds around 6.5 meters per second and greater at 80-m height are generally considered to have a resource suitable for wind development. Utility-scale, land-based wind turbines are typically installed between 80- and 100-m high although tower heights for new installations are increasing—up to 140 m—to gain access to better wind resources higher aloft."

So I'm confused, tell us again how wind power just doesn't work. Are you sure you aren't a lobbyist for the oil industry?


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Feb 22, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Well, as others have pointed out, if windmills (and more) work in winter climates, it can work in Texas, too.





dagger1 said:


> Windmills never work when the wind isn’t blowing.  Nowhere in the world.  To rely on them during critical times of the year (anytime electric outages can risk lives) is the height of folly.



Windmills work fine in an Ontario Canada winter.

HOWEVER - this can also cost you money. Windmills make power  , even when your public utility does not need it.
There are times when Ontario pays the windmill farms AND also PAYS $$$  Michigan to take the excess power.

[Ontario electric power  is about 61 %  Nuclear , and you cannot turn that off easily]
About 10+years ago those in charge heavily promoted growth in wind & solar so we could (and did) close all remaining coal fuelled power  plants.
It works fine and costs everyone more - especially when we have to pay to give it away.
[ sort of like getting rid of a time share you don’t need ]

********
Regardless of the worldwide location - there is always plenty of hot air coming from leaders who promote solutions that they don’t fully understand. / as we say on TUG - if their lips are moving ..........


----------



## Ken555 (Feb 22, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Windmills work fine in an Ontario Canada winter.



'nuf said. This really isn't a discussion about costs, though of course that's part of it. I don't recall a similar catastrophe in Canada, and it's my understanding Canada regulates the utility providers much more than the profits-first mentality in Texas.


----------



## T-Dot-Traveller (Feb 22, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> 'nuf said. This really isn't a discussion about costs, though of course that's part of it. I don't recall a similar catastrophe in Canada, and it's my understanding Canada regulates the utility providers much more than the profits-first mentality in Texas.



True - but there are estimates that it costs Ontario taxpayers one billion dollars a year to export excess  power to Michigan below cost . I have read estimates that this is  an extra $ 220 dollars per year per household.

We have our poor planning too.


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## Ken555 (Feb 22, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> True - but there are estimates that it costs Ontario taxpayers one billion dollars a year to export excess power to Michigan below cost . I have read estimates that this is an extra $ 220 dollars per year per household.
> 
> We have our poor planning too.



Sorry, I’m still not done with accepting that because of profit taking and poor infrastructure investments, people have died in Texas. Naturally costs are a factor, but speaking for myself I’m not yet ready to discuss it. We have this tendency to quickly skip over the reality of how these types of decisions impact people. I will be shocked if anyone is held accountable in Texas for these mistakes.

And fwiw, I would have no problem whatsoever paying an extra $220 per year for a utility system that is prepared for extreme weather events so that others don’t die.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 23, 2021)

I could make the same comment when the next "big" earthquake occurs in Southern California. But then again, I am a wag. . . .


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## Talent312 (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> There would have been no failure or danger to the grid if natural gas was the primary source (thus all the gas plants would have been running suppling fuel to the electric producers)...




If wishes were horses, beggars would ride...
And if - if’s and an’s were pots and pans, the tinker would never work!
-- English Nursery Rhyme


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## DrQ (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> I guess we will have to disagree.  There would have been no failure or danger to the grid if natural gas was the primary source (thus all the gas plants would have been running suppling fuel to the electric producers) and the wind turbines were the back up source.  There would have been no fiasco trying to bring gas plants online, they would have all been online.


I don't think so, Tim:

*“Power companies get exactly what they want”: How Texas repeatedly failed to protect its power grid against extreme weather*
Texas regulators and lawmakers knew about the grid’s vulnerabilities for years, but time and again they furthered the interests of large electricity providers.
​


> In January 2014, power plants owned by Texas’ largest electricity producer buckled under frigid temperatures. Its generators failed more than a dozen times in 12 hours, helping to bring the state’s electric grid to the brink of collapse.​​The incident was the second in three years for North Texas-based Luminant, whose equipment malfunctions during a more severe storm in 2011 resulted in a $750,000 fine from state energy regulators for failing to deliver promised power to the grid.​...​In May 2014, the PUC sought changes that would require energy companies to identify and address all potential failure points, including any effects of “weather design limits.”​​Luminant argued against the proposal.​​


​








						“Power companies get exactly what they want”: How Texas repeatedly failed to protect its power grid against extreme weather
					

Texas regulators and lawmakers knew about the grid’s vulnerabilities for years, but time and again they furthered the interests of large electricity providers.




					www.texastribune.org


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## DrQ (Feb 23, 2021)

MULTIZ321 said:


> As Texas deep freeze subsides, some households now face electricity bills as high as $10,000.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This was the exception, not the norm:


> "The Texas market has close to 7 million residential customers, and most people do not have variable-rate plans, said Catherine Webking, a partner at Austin-based law firm Scott Douglass & McConnico.
> 
> Griddy, which has 29,000 customers, according to local media reports, would account for 0.4% of the state's total residential customers.
> 
> "It's important to understand that is such a small, small sliver," Webking said."







__





						Texas freeze raises concerns about 'ridiculous' variable rate bill
					

Texas homeowners who signed up for variable rate electricity are seeing bills spiral into thousands of dollars as prices rocket during a freezing storm




					news.trust.org
				




It's like driving without insurance.


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## "Roger" (Feb 23, 2021)

I might just add to the discussion, that El Paso is not on the Texas grid. Ten years ago, when the last deep freeze hit, they took steps to winterize their power sources. They had no loss of electricity or water during the recent freeze. I have a friend who lives in Lubbock. Apparently, it is also off the Texas grid. (He tells me that this is true for about 10 percent of the Texans.) Same experience during this freeze. No loss of power, no loss of water.


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## nerodog (Feb 23, 2021)

TheTimeTraveler said:


> To all the Texans and others who may be experiencing severe cold weather;  Don't forget to leave all your faucets running to help prevent frozen pipes should you lose your heat source.
> 
> Frozen pipes are not what you want to deal with if you can possibly avoid it.....
> 
> ...


I used to leave my cabinet doors under the sinks in bath and kitchen so tge heat from the house could  circulate as well as letting the faucet drip. Also used to never turn off the out door faucets on house.


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## Ken555 (Feb 23, 2021)

Ralph Sir Edward said:


> I could make the same comment when the next "big" earthquake occurs in Southern California. But then again, I am a wag. . . .



I'm sure many will, just like last year when Texas politicians complained about California. Still, if you're going to do this keep in mind that we have had building codes for decades to minimize earthquake damage. This would be akin to Texas having regulations for winterizing equipment...oops.


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## DrQ (Feb 23, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> I'm sure many will, just like last year when Texas politicians complained about California.


That person had to eat those words as well as fess up about some ill conceived vacation plans.


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Windmills are a proven energy source. Your continuing attempt to change the discussion from a failure to winterize their equipment to dispute the ability for windmills to work is not going to fly. For grins, here are a few links to support these facts. Face it, Texas utterly failed, from top to bottom - didn't spend the money as per recommendations and prioritized profits over infrastructure (which, fwiw, is a problem in many regions and not just in Texas).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

Talent312 said:


> If wishes were horses, beggars would ride...
> And if - if’s and an’s were pots and pans, the tinker would never work!
> -- English Nursery Rhyme


So true.  Texas was “if’d and maybe’d” by “green” energy.


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

DrQ said:


> I don't think so, Tim:
> 
> *“Power companies get exactly what they want”: How Texas repeatedly failed to protect its power grid against extreme weather*
> Texas regulators and lawmakers knew about the grid’s vulnerabilities for years, but time and again they furthered the interests of large electricity providers.
> ...


The chart below says it all:  all fuel sources dropped dramatically except natural gas, which jumped by 78%.


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> The chart below says it all:  all fuel sources dropped dramatically except natural gas, which jumped by 78%.


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## Ken555 (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> View attachment 32679



Still missing the point. Not surprised. Which oil company do you work for?


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## "Roger" (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> View attachment 32681


I am having trouble matching this graph against other news sources. For example, here is an article from the Austin American Statesman.









						What percentage of Texas energy is renewable? Breaking down the state's power sources from gas to wind.
					

Millions of Texans are experiencing a power outage. What energy sources contribute to the state's power grid?



					www.statesman.com
				




Among other things, it states 

As of Wednesday, 46,000 megawatts of generation were offline, with 185 generating plants tripped. ERCOT officials said _28,000 megawatts came from coal, gas and nuclear plants_, and 18,000 megawatts were from solar and wind. (highlighting added)​
According to your graph, the amount of energy from gas, coal, and nuclear combined increased during the crisis, as opposed to having dropped by 28,000 megawatts.

Also from the article

The issue became critical when several of the grid’s energy generation units began to go offline in rapid progression, affecting more than half of the grid's winter generating capacity, according to ERCOT Senior Director of System Operations Dan Woodfin. These failing sources largely included nuclear plants, coal plants and thermal energy generators. Frozen wind turbines were a factor, too, but Woodfin said wind shutdowns accounted for less than 13% of the outages.​


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## MrockStar (Feb 23, 2021)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Windmills work fine in an Ontario Canada winter.
> 
> HOWEVER - this can also cost you money. Windmills make power  , even when your public utility does not need it.
> There are times when Ontario pays the windmill farms AND also PAYS $$$  Michigan to take the excess power.
> ...


Thanks very much Canada for giving us your unneeded excess wind power. Al from Michigan.


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## Rolltydr (Feb 23, 2021)

Hmmmm








						Five out-of-state ERCOT board members to resign after Texas power outages
					

Five members of the board of directors at the state's electrical grid operator will from their posts on Wednesday, including Chairwoman Sally Talberg.



					www.statesman.com


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## DrQ (Feb 23, 2021)

Rolltydr said:


> Hmmmm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said:








						How are TX Tuggers making out?
					

Since I am the OP, I'm not pointing fingers but want solutions.  I have at least 4 friend with burst water pipes, causing a whole house worth of damage.  And those are the ones who I have been texting in the last 48 hours.  Could be a much larger number.  Someone in my 75 house 5 street gated...




					tugbbs.com
				



They are getting out while the getting is acceptable.


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## easyrider (Feb 23, 2021)

I read that everyone is rethinking electric cars because of the recent power failures. It would be a bummer to need to use a car but not be able to juice it up for weeks. People with gas cars could stay warm in their cars or drive away to somewhere better. 

Bill


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Still missing the point. Not surprised. Which oil company do you work for?


I’m retired.  Just live in the real world.


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

"Roger" said:


> I am having trouble matching this graph against other news sources. For example, here is an article from the Austin American Statesman.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The graph says it all.


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## Ken555 (Feb 23, 2021)

easyrider said:


> I read that everyone is rethinking electric cars because of the recent power failures. It would be a bummer to need to use a car but not be able to juice it up for weeks. People with gas cars could stay warm in their cars or drive away to somewhere better.
> 
> Bill



Tesla's "camp mode" kept owners warm when their power went out in Texas. Of course, if power is out for extended periods would they be impacted.


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## Ken555 (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> I’m retired.  Just live in the real world.



Hmm... well, I like facts. The facts are that wind power works. Texas invested significantly in wind power, so that ~17% of all power generation in the state is from that renewable resource. Your complaints are way off the mark, and not in the "real world", since you say wind power just doesn't work when it obviously does. 

I like how you omitted the part where you admit... "I'm retired [but I had a successful career in the oil industry.]"


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## easyrider (Feb 23, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Hmm... well, I like facts. The facts are that wind power works. Texas invested significantly in wind power, so that ~17% of all power generation in the state is from that renewable resource. Your complaints are way off the mark, and not in the "real world", since you say wind power just doesn't work when it obviously does.
> 
> I like how you omitted the part where you admit... "I'm retired [but I had a successful career in the oil industry.]"



Wind power works only if there is the right amount of wind. It should work great if the power grid went down but obviously there are some problems because it didn't work. It's too bad reactors get such a bad reputation in the USA.

Bill


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## bluehende (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> The graph says it all.


Your graphs show a sizeable increase in total electricity during the crisis.   We know that is not true.  

from ercot





While Webber said all of Texas’ energy sources share blame for the power crisis, the natural gas industry is most notably producing significantly less power than normal.

“Gas is failing in the most spectacular fashion right now,” Webber said.

Dan Woodfin, a senior director at ERCOT, echoed that sentiment Tuesday.

“It appears that a lot of the generation that has gone offline today has been primarily due to issues on the natural gas system,” he said during a Tuesday call with reporters.


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## T_R_Oglodyte (Feb 23, 2021)

Getting back to the title of this thread about how are TX TUGgers are making out -

DS and DIL live in Houston.  I'm pretty sure they are making out as they always have.  My only issue is that I wish that their making out would result in at least one grandchild for us to dote on.


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## Ken555 (Feb 23, 2021)

T_R_Oglodyte said:


> Getting back to the title of this thread about how are TX TUGgers are making out -
> 
> DS and DIL live in Houston. I'm pretty sure they are making out as they always have. My only issue is that I wish that their making out would result in at least one grandchild for us to dote on.



I have cousins in Houston and they are doing fine, though they also lost power, of course. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ken555 (Feb 23, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Wind power works only if there is the right amount of wind. It should work great if the power grid went down but obviously there are some problems because it didn't work. It's too bad reactors get such a bad reputation in the USA.
> 
> Bill



See my earlier post with details on the Texas wind power systems and requirements. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> Hmm... well, I like facts. The facts are that wind power works. Texas invested significantly in wind power, so that ~17% of all power generation in the state is from that renewable resource. Your complaints are way off the mark, and not in the "real world", since you say wind power just doesn't work when it obviously does.
> 
> I like how you omitted the part where you admit... "I'm retired [but I had a successful career in the oil industry.]"


I am not against wind or solar power.  You seem to enjoy putting words in people’s mouths.  Look at the graph.  It shows energy sourced from windmills dropping 61% (that means windmills still were producing some energy). It also shows that windmills are a very poor source of energy during an Arctic event that Texas just experienced.  That’s an undeniable fact.  The chart also shows natural gas ramped up (in one day) 78%.  Another fact.  Without natural gas there would have been thousands of deaths.  Oh, by the way, I did not retire from an oil company.


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

bluehende said:


> Your graphs show a sizeable increase in total electricity during the crisis.   We know that is not true.
> 
> from ercot
> 
> ...


I repeat, the graph says it all.


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

bluehende said:


> Your graphs show a sizeable increase in total electricity during the crisis.   We know that is not true.
> 
> from ercot
> 
> ...


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## bluehende (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> I repeat, the graph says it all.


I repeat your graph cannot be true.  Thanks for answering the question how your graph shows an increase in power generation when we know that is not true.


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## Ken555 (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> I am not against wind or solar power. You seem to enjoy putting words in people’s mouths.



No, just trying to put things in perspective. Thanks for taking it in good humor.



> Look at the graph. It shows energy sourced from windmills dropping 61% (that means windmills still were producing some energy). It also shows that windmills are a very poor source of energy during an Arctic event that Texas just experienced. That’s an undeniable fact. The chart also shows natural gas ramped up (in one day) 78%. Another fact. Without natural gas there would have been thousands of deaths. Oh, by the way, I did not retire from an oil company.



Perhaps you missed the part where Texas didn’t winterize the windmills. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## bluehende (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> View attachment 32690


Your graph shows a pretty darn big drop in supply there.  You do understand that there is peak production which I assume is mainly for AC in the summer.  Your average demand is a pretty meaningless number in relation to the amount of production a power company has total.  Of course that peak production for high demand days can not be windpower.


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

Ken555 said:


> No, just trying to put things in perspective. Thanks for taking it in good humor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Didn’t miss that.  Didn’t miss the fact that natural gas plants ramped up in spite of being subjected to rolling blackouts.  Mismanagement across the board.


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

bluehende said:


> Your graph shows a pretty darn big drop in supply there.  You do understand that there is peak production which I assume is mainly for AC in the summer.  Your average demand is a pretty meaningless number in relation to the amount of production a power company has total.  Of course that peak production for high demand days can not be windpower.


Correct!!


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

bluehende said:


> I repeat your graph cannot be true.  Thanks for answering the question how your graph shows an increase in power generation when we know that is not true.


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## bluehende (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> View attachment 32692


So going up biggly before complete collapse is a good thing?


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## bluehende (Feb 23, 2021)

dagger1 said:


> Didn’t miss that.  Didn’t miss the fact that natural gas plants ramped up in spite of being subjected to rolling blackouts.  Mismanagement across the board.


You may want to look at the graph you just posted noting the day rolling blackouts started and adjust your post above.


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## dagger1 (Feb 23, 2021)

No necessity to adjust my comments.  On an anecdotal level, the only thing that kept our house warm was our natural gas fireplace.  And I am going to have a “whole home” standby generator.  Fueled by natural gas.  No more “maybe” sources of power.  Done “tilting at windmills.”


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## MrockStar (Feb 23, 2021)

We are also considering installing a natural gas generator and a gas log/natural fireplace in our lake cottage up north.


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## jehb2 (Feb 24, 2021)

Boil ban has been lifted. Yea! A lot of schools in the school district have damage ranging from mild to severe.  I reluctantly let the water out of my bathtubs.


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## Patri (Feb 24, 2021)

jehb2 said:


> Boil ban has been lifted. Yea! A lot of schools in the school district have damage ranging from mild to severe.  I reluctantly let the water out of my bathtubs.


Such bravery in the face of danger.


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## Ralph Sir Edward (Feb 24, 2021)

I cooked steaks outside today. . . . Charcoal FTW!


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## T-Dot-Traveller (Feb 24, 2021)

MrockStar said:


> We are also considering installing a natural gas generator and a gas log/natural fireplace in our lake cottage up north.


You may need to use propane.


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## jehb2 (Feb 24, 2021)

We actually had to turn on the A/C today.


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## dagger1 (Feb 25, 2021)

Very enlightening:









						‎American Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts
					

‎News · 2022



					podcasts.apple.com


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## Brett (Feb 25, 2021)

Texas Governor increases the number of plumbers who can help repair winter storm damage by giving provisional permits to out-of-state plumbers and waiving some fees and examination requirements for plumbers with expired licenses

https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-is-making-it-easier-some-plumbers-work-after-storm-2021-2

Randy Calazans, an employee with One Call Plumbing, said he's been running around from one house to the next sizing up the damage. He said the damage to some homes was so bad they may need to be completely re-piped.


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## WVBaker (Feb 25, 2021)

Freeze aftermath: Plumbing and insurance claim mistakes to avoid
Unlicensed plumbers, general contractors or DIY approaches may cause more costly damage

An unlicensed contractor or handyman also will not be on the hook.

“You have no recourse in the event that something is done improper,” Denton said.

However, the state’s registry of plumbers does not allow Texas residents to determine if a plumber is licensed but also allows customers to examine their disciplinary history.










						Freeze aftermath: Plumbing and insurance claim mistakes to avoid
					

We look at mistakes to avoid involving plumbing and claims filing.




					www.click2houston.com


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## DrQ (Mar 9, 2021)

Bread and Circuses:
*Texas lawmakers plan slate of bills in response to power outages, but experts skeptical there will be meaningful change*








						Texas lawmakers plan slate of bills in response to power outages, but experts skeptical there will be meaningful change
					

Gov. Greg Abbott on Tuesday also said he wants lawmakers to prioritize correcting any ERCOT-related billing errors, including inaccurately high electricity charges. That came after the Public Utility Commission said it will not fix ERCOT's $16 billion power billing mistake.




					www.texastribune.org


----------

