# [ 2011 ] House burned down - should I retain a public adjuster



## pbshareman (Jun 22, 2011)

Well, this is unbelievable, but we lost our house and virtually everything in it in a house fire.  What the fire didn't take, the water and smoke did.  Fortunately, everything important came out of the house (wife, kids, 2 dogs and a cat).  We're now on a fast learning curve for working with the insurance company to restore what was lost.

My question for you TUGgers is whether any of you have any advice/experience with this type of loss.  I've spoken with a public adjuster, who basically is someone who does the same type of adjustment work that the insurance company does, only he is retained by and paid by me (based on a portion..8%...of what I ultimately recover).  The insurance company is telling me that I'm wasting my  money and they're looking out for me and want to make sure it goes in my pocket and not the Public Adjuster's.  I'm thinking I might benefit from his experience, and perhaps the increase in the recovered claim may actually pay for the service.

Any thoughts guys?


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## Rose Pink (Jun 22, 2011)

I've not worked with one so cannot give you advice.  

When I needed to file an insurance claim on water damage in my FIL's house, I found the company contracted to do the work were the ones who kept finding problems that needed to be fixed.  I think it was in their interest to find it all as they were the ones getting paid to do the clean-up work.  It started with water damage in one corner of a basement room.  One thing led to another and we finally ended up with a new ceiling, new walls (even where there had not been damage because they had to match everything up), new kitchen cabinets upstairs, new kitchen and bathroom flooring.  About 10K worth of repairs paid for by the insurance company.

I'm not sure how that works with a total loss.  Become very familiar with your insurance policy and the costs to rebuild the same type home in your locale.  Check with contractors and home builders.  This is not the same as the sales price for homes in your area.  It may actually cost more to build a home than to buy one in a depressed real estate market.  You want the cost of rebuilding, not buying.

If the cost to build is $100K (just picking a number for discussion's sake) then you would have to pay your adjuster $8K.  That's a lot of money not going into your home.  Is it worth it?  I don't know.  Will he get that much more money out of your insurance company?  I have no idea.

I am sorry you have to go through this but very happy that your family is safe.  I wish you the best.


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## Ridewithme38 (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't think you'll really need to hire an outside adjuster...Best advice i can give is first get a copy of your policy and truely read through it(Sometimes things like smoke damage and water damage aren't covered if it part of a fire claim) pull ALL you credit card records for everything you'd like to get value for(You're going to want to prove you owned that 52" plasma TV)...Don't just accept the insurance companies estimate on cost(They like to start low), get your own estimate, Depreciation is 'relative' to how well your adjuster likes you and deductibles get waved alot...

I work for a company that does alot of property insurance claims, while currently i'm not working as an adjuster...those are the best suggestions i can make


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## kenco (Jun 22, 2011)

*Do you want a fair settlement?*

Why do you think the insurance company is advising against hiring a PA(public adjuster). A PA is a highly qualified individual that can make a tremendous difference in the settlement of your claim. He/she knows what questions to ask you about your loss that you may not even be aware of that the insurance company will pay for. Do yourself a favor and have a professional help you. If you were being sued would you go to court without a lawyer..then why would you negotiate with the insurance company without some professional representation.


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## camachinist (Jun 22, 2011)

OP, what is your spidey sense telling you about your insurance company?

As an example, what has been your experience with relocating since the fire and their proactivity in that regard? How have they executed your loss of use coverage, which I presume you have?

How much time and energy do you have to negotiate with the insurance company and oversee the rebuilding process and any associated impacts on claims?

How effective of an advocate are you in adversarial situations?

Happy to read the family and pets are fine. Stuff can be replaced. Good luck


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## pbshareman (Jun 22, 2011)

camachinist said:


> OP, what is your spidey sense telling you about your insurance company?
> 
> As an example, what has been your experience with relocating since the fire and their proactivity in that regard? How have they executed your loss of use coverage, which I presume you have?
> 
> ...



Ah, yes, my Spidey sense.  Initially, they were unacceptably slow.  They couldn't get anyone to give me any real help or direction over the weekend (my house burned down on Friday night and the first call back I got with someone ready to help me was at 10 am on Monday....55 hours after my initial call to them).

I can be an effective advocate, but I'm working full time and the real area where I would need help is coming up with favorable numbers for my losses, and knowing what can be fought for and what can't.  Is that worth 8%?  It might be.  

When I look up the company for the PA, the reviews are all favorable and they seem reputable.  The reports on the insurance company are mixed.  I hate to "give away" 8%, but my guess is at the end of the day the real cost to me will be less than that.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 22, 2011)

I rented a house for 3+ years to a Public Adjuster - he was a liar, dishonest, ambulance chaser, did I mention bold-face liar? He was the biggest JERK. I saw him several years later in municipal court trying to frame the HS Principal & several teachers for threaten him and his "perfect" son after the kid was belligent and throwing his hands and things around (same kid who 3 years earlier swore I was "throwing myself" at his creep of a dad by demanding rent payments"). Judge threw the case out.

I asked over the years of several expereinces by friends both in and out of the insurance game. *First off,* *by signing a contract with a PUBLIC ADJUSTER you are making them a party to your total insurance claim*. In NJ that is right off the top 10%. And they have been known to pad the bill with NOT included extras (as your claim was so hard or you had electronics or your in-laws live with you, so it was twice the work). They will cash your check (yes, it is illegal; still happens) or hold your check or give you a lesser amount.
*2nd *- IF you decide the PA is a bull sh*t artist, YOU still pay them!!!
*3rd* - your insurance company will NOT pay 1 penny to cover their fees.
*4th *- your company's insurance adjuster is most likely already an independant adjuster --- one who is ligit and would never crossover to the dark side to be a Public Adjuster.
*5th* - you can ALWAYS hire as a consultant - another adjuster to review a claim before you sign off - bet for a whole lot less than a PA - as a fixed fee.
I had lightening strike my house. The insurance adjuster (a private contractor and the owner of a company) sent by my insurance company was TOLD to be very subspious of the claim (which is why he came out verse one of his employees)--- 10 minutes at my house after showing the guy the evidence, he told me that and said I was very lucky I (and my French exchange student). We had stopped for dinner due to the very heavy rain/storms on our way home. The lightening bolt had blown the slate hearth into a 100 pieces across the LR where we would have been sitting and watching TV. Burned out all my household electronics. Blew the main curcuit breaker - service was on the other side of the house, etc. All the tables and rates are FIXED - there is very little play - so you square foot house will cost x dollars. Your rugs is Y. Your LR furniture is either z used or z replacement value.

This is just my very personal experiences - I know no one who has benefitted by a Public Adjuster.

I have also rented houses to 3 different families who got burned out.  One lost their claim as they burned their own house down. One was a dryer fire - insurance paid me directly. One was the neighbor across the street from my rental we were almost done our turnover work on (yes, I did wait until 6 of 7 the fire trucks left before asking if she wanted to rent my place) => she did not use a PA and was told by everyone she knew, NOT to use a PA.


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## rickandcindy23 (Jun 22, 2011)

How sad for you and your family.  My husband has been a firefighter for 36 years, and the devastation of it just makes my heart ache for you.  He sees the stress and trauma families experience at the loss of their homes.  

I have no idea how to answer your question, but I am so sorry you are dealing with such a terrible loss.


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## Timeshare Von (Jun 22, 2011)

kenco said:


> Why do you think the insurance company is advising against hiring a PA(public adjuster). A PA is a highly qualified individual that can make a tremendous difference in the settlement of your claim. He/she knows what questions to ask you about your loss that you may not even be aware of that the insurance company will pay for. Do yourself a favor and have a professional help you. If you were being sued would you go to court without a lawyer..then why would you negotiate with the insurance company without some professional representation.



My spidey sense questions this post . . . they join today to make this, their first post?


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## Timeshare Von (Jun 22, 2011)

Yes very tragic and I'm glad you and your family w/pets, got out safely.

Best wishes as you go through a very difficult time.


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## pbshareman (Jun 22, 2011)

Timeshare Von said:


> My spidey sense questions this post . . . they join today to make this, their first post?



You noticed that too?  I wonder how they found the thread.

PA's seem to have done quite a bit of damage control, though.  It's not as though the internet is full of PA horror stories.


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## Passepartout (Jun 22, 2011)

First, let me offer condolences for your loss. I was burned out in one of the California Santa-Ana wind caused fires in the '80's. And have been flooded out, too. It makes you value what you have been able to save.

I sort of come down on the side of hiring a PA. That said, everything is negotiable- including the percentage of their 'take'. Get bids and references and follow your 'spidey sense'. If it doesn't feel 'right' it probably isn't.

I am a big believer in having professionals do what they do, but as far as I know, there is no education, licensing, or accreditation for PA's.

Best wishes for a good outcome. No matter what, there will be much heartache before this is over.w

Jim Ricks


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## tombo (Jun 22, 2011)

You are wasting money IMO hiring a public adjuster. On a total fire loss they will pay you policy limits. 

If your house was insured for $300,000, they should pay $300,000 for a total loss. if your contents were $150,000 they should pay you $150,000 for the total loss.



If they pay the max on your house and the max on contents, what more could the public adjuster get you?


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 22, 2011)

Passepartout;1129099I am a big believer in having professionals do what they do said:
			
		

> NJ has rules - no approaching the person til 24hours after the fire (that translates to, don't get caught and date the contract for 2 days after).
> 
> FL has a license requirement ... my ex-tenant drove down immediately after Hurricane Andrew to make his fortune and could NOT get the license. But he did some work under someone else's license and didn't get paid. :hysterical:


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 22, 2011)

tombo said:


> You are wasting money IMO hiring a public adjuster. On a total fire loss they will pay you policy limits.
> 
> If your house was insured for $300,000, they should pay $300,000 for a total loss. if your contents were $150,000 they should pay you $150,000 for the total loss.
> 
> ...



Fully agree with tombo.


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## pbshareman (Jun 22, 2011)

tombo said:


> You are wasting money IMO hiring a public adjuster. On a total fire loss they will pay you policy limits.
> 
> If your house was insured for $300,000, they should pay $300,000 for a total loss. if your contents were $150,000 they should pay you $150,000 for the total loss.
> 
> ...



It doesn't exactly work that way.  Say I'm insured for 300 bazillion dollars for the house and 200 bazillion dollars for the contents.  The insurer will look at the house and perhaps say "I agree, it's a total loss, let's figure out what the cost is to replace it."  That's when the fun starts.  The adjuster will then go room by room through the house itemizing the elements of the house that need to be replaced.  For example, the living room might read 16 x 20, drywall, ceiling fan, 6 electrical outlets, 2 switches, 1 cable box, 2 windows, hardwood floors.  The public adjuster might be more meticulous, mentioning brand names or high end upgrades that were lost, or know that the replacement cost is more than what the adjuster assigned by the insurance company initially lists.  I may be able to understand the bottom line, but I have no idea if the allowances for the replacement costs suggested by the adjuster are high, low, or just right.  The PA benefits by maximizing the claim because he is paid based on what he gets for me.

If it sounds like I've made up my mind, that's not the case.  I'm just not entirely trusting of insurance companies to look out for me.  If they were to just offer me a check for 300 bazillion dollars for the house and 200 bazillion dollars for the contents, then great.  But to get it, I need to go through the itemization process for everything.  

But I really do appreciate reading all of the responses.  They give me a lot to think about.


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## am1 (Jun 22, 2011)

Insurance companies are not looking out for you at all.  They will pay the minimum they can get away with.


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## Beaglemom3 (Jun 22, 2011)

There are law firms  who specialize in these types of losses and will advocate for you.

I would contact one and have at least an initial meeting.

My late Mum's house flooded while she was in the hospital and her pipes froze.  The damage was substantial.

The insurance company tried to under compensate her, not to mention nickeling & diming her as well.

I was still in law school at the time, but a very dear law professor steered me in the right way.

Just Google "Fire damage attorneys Illinois". They are similar, but differ from adjusters.

Formalities aside, I am very sorry for this deep and painful loss.

Late edit: The fee for an attorney will be around 10% (industry standard) whereas the adjuster is ~ 8 %.


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## tombo (Jun 22, 2011)

pbshareman said:


> It doesn't exactly work that way.  Say I'm insured for 300 bazillion dollars for the house and 200 bazillion dollars for the contents.  The insurer will look at the house and perhaps say "I agree, it's a total loss, let's figure out what the cost is to replace it."  That's when the fun starts.  The adjuster will then go room by room through the house itemizing the elements of the house that need to be replaced.  For example, the living room might read 16 x 20, drywall, ceiling fan, 6 electrical outlets, 2 switches, 1 cable box, 2 windows, hardwood floors.  The public adjuster might be more meticulous, mentioning brand names or high end upgrades that were lost, or know that the replacement cost is more than what the adjuster assigned by the insurance company initially lists.  I may be able to understand the bottom line, but I have no idea if the allowances for the replacement costs suggested by the adjuster are high, low, or just right.  The PA benefits by maximizing the claim because he is paid based on what he gets for me.
> 
> If it sounds like I've made up my mind, that's not the case.  I'm just not entirely trusting of insurance companies to look out for me.  If they were to just offer me a check for 300 bazillion dollars for the house and 200 bazillion dollars for the contents, then great.  But to get it, I need to go through the itemization process for everything.
> 
> But I really do appreciate reading all of the responses.  They give me a lot to think about.



A total loss is policy limits in my state. Go get an attorney, a public adjuster, spend a lot of money and a lot of time and end up with policy limits paid to you, and then subtract the Privat adjuster fees, attorney fees, and keep what they dont take, or let the insurance company pay you policy limits on your total loss without hiring all of those other people. It is your choice. 


That guy is charging 8% of the total $s you receive. WOw. If your house is insured for $300,000 and the contents are $150,000 and you get $450,000, he will get paid $36,000. That is more than a real estate agent would get for selling your house. 


I do know what I am talking about but go ahead and spend a lot of money because some public adjuster scared you. often people hire a lawyer, end up with the same $ from the insurance company that they would have gotten anyway, and the lawyer takes half or more leaving the insured considerably less than they would have been paid without an attorney. What a deal for the attorney.


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## pbshareman (Jun 22, 2011)

tombo said:


> I do know what I am talking about but go ahead and spend a lot of money because some public adjuster scared you. often people hire a lawyer, end up with the same $ from the insurance company that they would have gotten anyway, and the lawyer takes half or more leaving the insured considerably less than they would have been paid without an attorney. What a deal for the attorney.



Tombo,

I don't recall saying you don't know what you're talking about.  What I said is that insurance companies in Illinois don't just write a check for policy limits...you have to establish your claim.  As an attorney, one thing I recognize is to know when you don't know something...and there is much about the insurance adjustment business that I don't know.  That's why I came to this board for input.  Thanks for your advice.  What I'm seeing, between this and other boards, is about 60/40 in favor of going it alone.  

Pat


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## tombo (Jun 22, 2011)

pbshareman said:


> Tombo,
> 
> I don't recall saying you don't know what you're talking about.  What I said is that insurance companies in Illinois don't just write a check for policy limits...you have to establish your claim.  As an attorney, one thing I recognize is to know when you don't know something...and there is much about the insurance adjustment business that I don't know.  That's why I came to this board for input.  Thanks for your advice.  What I'm seeing, between this and other boards, is about 60/40 in favor of going it alone.
> 
> Pat



You seemed to be leaning towards using the private adjuster, so I said do what you want but I do know what I am talking about. I never said that you implied or stated that i didn't know what I am talking about.

If you had a partial loss things are trickier than a total loss. Is your policy ACV or replacement cost? If you have a partial loss what do builders quote you to remodel/repair your house to be exactly like it was. What is the amount you are being offered by the insurance company? If you have a partial loss can you prove that you had the signed limited edition lithographs, a stamp collection, a closet full of custom tailored suits, etc. In some cases a private adjuster working for you might find you some  claims/dollars that you would not get paid for without him. However even then would he find you enough money that they weren't going to pay you without his service to cover the 8% of your entire settlement he is charging you? I doubt it.


You are an attorney. You know an insurance company does not want to go to court and argue that they don't owe you the full amount of dwelling and personal property coverages you have been paying for. In court it would be so XYZ insurance company Mr Smith has paid you for $150,000 in personal property coverage and $300,000 in dwelling coverage for the last 5 years and now that he has lost everything you don't want to pay him $450,000 for his total loss even though he has a paid for policy covering him for $450,000? As an attorney i am sure you would love to represent that client.

No matter what I would go it alone until you and the insurance company reach an impasse. Until you sign the check and cash it you haven't agreed to take what the insurance company is offering. As long as you don't tell the insurance company's adjuster that you have hired an attorney they will negotiate almost anything up to the limits (if it was a total loss). If you tell the adjuster that you have hired an attorney they will hand you a card with the insurance company's attorney on it and tell you that they can no longer deal with you on the claim. From that moment on your attorney will have to contact their attorney. You have lost any chance to negotiate on your own by threatening that you have hired a lawyer whether you have actually hired one or not..


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## pbshareman (Jun 22, 2011)

tombo said:


> If you had a partial loss things are trickier than a total loss. Is your policy ACV or replacement cost? If you have a partial loss what do builders quote you to remodel/repair your house to be exactly like it was.



Where I was struggling was how to argue against repair or restoration in favor of total loss.  If I left it up to my insurance company they might take everything out of my closets that is soot covered and waterlogged and immediately have a restoration company send it for cleaning.  That may be a waste of money to me and I'd be better off spending that money replacing the items as opposed to hoping they can get the smell and stains off them.

As for the building, there are four walls, and the studs are mostly up, but the are soaked and soot damaged and IMO not worthy of saving.  A restoration company will want to get paid to clean up all of the drywall and damage and then get paid more to try to clean all of the studs, dry them out and cover them with some solution to block out the smell and prevent further damage.   Is that really in my best interest?  Or should I just pay for a tear down and rebuild?  Who helps me with those arguments?  Maybe it's a fire damage attorney, or maybe it's a public adjuster.  Or maybe I go it alone.  I'm just seeking the comfort af a number of resources.

Thanks again for your input.

Pat


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## tombo (Jun 22, 2011)

pbshareman said:


> Where I was struggling was how to argue against repair or restoration in favor of total loss.  If I left it up to my insurance company they might take everything out of my closets that is soot covered and waterlogged and immediately have a restoration company send it for cleaning.  That may be a waste of money to me and I'd be better off spending that money replacing the items as opposed to hoping they can get the smell and stains off them.
> 
> As for the building, there are four walls, and the studs are mostly up, but the are soaked and soot damaged and IMO not worthy of saving.  A restoration company will want to get paid to clean up all of the drywall and damage and then get paid more to try to clean all of the studs, dry them out and cover them with some solution to block out the smell and prevent further damage.   Is that really in my best interest?  Or should I just pay for a tear down and rebuild?  Who helps me with those arguments?  Maybe it's a fire damage attorney, or maybe it's a public adjuster.  Or maybe I go it alone.  I'm just seeking the comfort af a number of resources.
> 
> ...



Go it alone first. For all you know they might tell you it is a total loss with no arguments. You are ready to hire somebody before you even hear their offer. Which one of the parties is not negotiating in good faith?


Yes they might want you to rebuild it and not want to pay you for a total loss. if they tell you that get FREE estimates from builders. Get EXPERT opinions on whether it needs to be bulldozed and rebuilt from the ground up or it it is salvageable. Get them to put it in writing. The builder might tell you that it is salveagble and that to knock it down would be stupid.. You are not a contractor, so get some contactors to enlighten you and give you ammunition to argue your case with the insurance company. They might tell you that the insurance company is correct in their assessment of the situation.

After you have some solid estimates for costs to repair or rebuild and a couple of professional contractor's opinions on the best way to rebuild your home, go back to the adjuster and renegotiate based on actual facts and figures. THE VERY LAST RESORT is when you reach an impasse and they will not make you an acceptable offer is to hire outside help, it is not the first thing you do.


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## camachinist (Jun 22, 2011)

Sounds like a foundation-up rebuild. Save the footprint and all new. If the insurance company is nodding their head to that, then IMO that would be a point in favor of going it alone. Plenty of hungry build crews out there right now; good ones too. 

Are you well-versed in reading and comprehending insurance policies, including the fine print? If no, it wouldn't hurt to get it boiled down by an attorney who specializes in such. You don't have to retain them, rather merely pay for assistance in understanding what the heck coverage you paid for. They don't even have to know you have a claim. Heck, horse trade with one of your colleagues. 

Knowledge is power.


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## vacationhopeful (Jun 22, 2011)

Get out your policy. You can't live in your house. You (and your family naturally) have no clothes and nothing to sit on. If you insured a 5 bedroom house with 3 kids each in their own bdr, you should be looking for a suitable 4 bdr dewelling. Ask HOW many months (and then make sure that is NOT fixed/locked in)? Rent furniture -ask how many months (and it might be cheaper to BUY now vs renting for a year (to rebuild)? All these billings will most likely be in your name. Get an idea as to WHAT you monthly living allowance will be - remember, they will only pay for similiar housing; you will still have your out of pocket costs (electric, cable, etc). They should pay for your rental furniture & delivery costs. Your cable install should be their bill.  You might get a blanket coverage for $xxxxxx.xx - if you buy smart, who gets the savings?

In NJ, there is the construction code official - the good ones have tons of FREE info and personal experiences. Many badly damaged places just get condemned --- makes it easlier to argue that IT IS NOT A REBUILD. My carpet guy hired the wrong contractor (and CCO just dragged the whole job out for an extra 3-4 months - which insurance company didn't pay for as the construction company he hired promised the earlier delivery date). \\

And then there is the K.I.S.S. principal - Keep It Simple Stupid! Rebuilding the same size house might be better than trying to get a bigger house. Rebuild a similiar standard of house (have woodframe, don't go for the all brick now). Had 6" of insulation - unless the codes now call for 12", you will have to pay for that ... replacement stuff has to be legal. 

Good luck. Choose who is going to spend their life on this rebuild. My tenants who rented my house across the street from their burned out house - wife set her home office up in front of the window looking at her old house. She was a clincial trials nurse who had worked from home before; but now she was the onsite manager of their rebuild, too. Told me when it all ended, she could not have managed that disaster/stress/frustration if she had't been able to just walk across the street. But she set the DR as their LR and made sure their BDR (& all other rooms) did NOT view the burn-out. It is the little things that will drive you nuts.


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## falmouth3 (Jun 22, 2011)

Many years ago my parents have a heavy partial loss after a fire.  They were advised, I don't know by whom, to get a public adjuster.  They felt the money was well spent because he had a checklist of things that were probably in the house that they would not have remembered or thought about.  

They lived in a trailer in the front yard for months.  Luckily only one kid was still at home otherwise it might have been very crowded.


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## NWL (Jun 22, 2011)

First I'd like to say to the OP:

Make sure your policy provides for temporary housing, and, if so, get it now.  If you and your family have adequate shelter, you now have the opportunity to let your insurance company do it's job.  Let them tell you what they will pay.  If you do not agree with it, seek counsel.



falmouth3 said:


> Many years ago my parents have a heavy partial loss after a fire.  They were advised, I don't know by whom, to get a public adjuster.  They felt the money was well spent because he had a checklist of things that were probably in the house that they would not have remembered or thought about.
> 
> They lived in a trailer in the front yard for months.  Luckily only one kid was still at home otherwise it might have been very crowded.



Any loss is devastating.  I'm glad your parents received good advice.  Anyone who can operate a video camera should record the contents of their house each year and keep that video in a safe deposit box.  Should you  experience a terrible loss like the OP, you will have proof of the items you own.

Cheers!


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## carl2591 (Jun 22, 2011)

kenco said:


> Why do you think the insurance company is advising against hiring a PA(public adjuster). A PA is a highly qualified individual that can make a tremendous difference in the settlement of your claim. He/she knows what questions to ask you about your loss that you may not even be aware of that the insurance company will pay for. Do yourself a favor and have a professional help you. If you were being sued would you go to court without a lawyer..then why would you negotiate with the insurance company without some professional representation.



what he said..

with insurance companies what they say not to do in regards to claims is what you should do..  

HIRE THE PA. you will thanks us later.. 

sorry for you house fire,   it does put in perspective what is really important.


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## chellej (Jun 22, 2011)

We have had 2 recent losses - the first Hurricane Ike the second a property loss from a break in to DH vehicle.

We have Farmers and the way they handle the replacement cost is very frustrating to me.

They estimate the cost of the loss , repair etc,  deduct "recoverable depreciation" and the deductible and then send a payment.

After you pay for the repairs, items etc and submit the receipts, they pay you the depreciation.

Our loss after Ike they estimated at ~$22000.   The SBA adjuster who came because the only way to complete the repairs was through a loan,...his estimate $30000 and he only covered the main house no tree removal or outbuildings.

Bottom line...his estimate was almost double what the insurance estimated.

Depending on how tough you are and willing to do battle should factor into doing it on your own or paying someone.  They make you fight for every dollar.

While Tombos comment on them paying out the total claim may be true for the structure because it is based on a building style and square footage, I doubt they would pay you the content max without an itemization of contents plus the purschase date and cost.

Sorry for your loss and hope it all works out for you


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## pbshareman (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks for all of the good advice. Right now I am staying at a Residence Inn, but the insurance company has found a three bedroom ranch near me to stay in. I've had plenty of options when it comes to housing...this is what we selected.  They are paying directly, and also furnishing it.  I have a total allowance for living expenses that would cover me for over a year, so I think I'm covered. 

As for the final decision, I'm leaning toward going it alone for a while. This is a pretty open and shut case and I should get what I need without outside help. Sure the PA may come up with some small items that are "losses", but it would have to be a lot to justify the cost.


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## tombo (Jun 22, 2011)

The point everyone is missing is that the OP never even got an offer before thinking about getting a PA. He never asked the insurance company adjuster what he recommended. He is ready for a fight, assuming they are going to screw him, and  getting ready to hire people to get him more money before he even heard what the insurance company has to say. Many here jumped on the band wagon and said hire someone, the insurance company is going to screw you. 


How about a little research. Before the cries of the village people turn to burn the insurance adjuster at the stake, how about see if he is fair and willing to work with you.]

Look at these web sites and find some of your own:
http://homeinventory.net/Home_Inventory_After_Fire.htm

http://www.insurancerate.com/what-to-do-after-a-house-fire.php

http://realestate.findlaw.com/insuring-your-home/dealing-with-insurance-company-after-fire.html

I would do a little leg work on the web and with local contractors, work on compiling an inventory of everything I owned and lost, get to work with the insurance company's adjuster to try and get things rolling, and fight to get a fair settlement if I felt that he was giving me less than I deserve. 

On the other hand you can say I don't know what I am doing, don't want to fool with it, hire a public adjuster, and give him 8% to 15% of the money that the insurance company gives you.

If the insurance company gives you $500,000 he will get $50,000 to $75,000 OF YOUR MONEY. For $50,000 to $75,000 in my pocket I will do whatever I need to do.


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## tombo (Jun 22, 2011)

pbshareman said:


> Thanks for all of the good advice. Right now I am staying at a Residence Inn, but the insurance company has found a three bedroom ranch near me to stay in. I've had plenty of options when it comes to housing...this is what we selected.  They are paying directly, and also furnishing it.  I have a total allowance for living expenses that would cover me for over a year, so I think I'm covered.
> 
> As for the final decision, I'm leaning toward going it alone for a while. This is a pretty open and shut case and I should get what I need without outside help. Sure the PA may come up with some small items that are "losses", but it would have to be a lot to justify the cost.



I was typing and posted the above post before I read your last response. Sounds like the adjuster is working with you, and it isn't costing you 8% to 15%. They are paying for you a place to live that YOU selected for at least a year. The bad crooked insurance company did this without you having to hire a lawyer or a PA. Of course if you had hired eithere they would have told you that without them you would not have gotten a 3 bed room ranch, you would have been in a small apt. Without them you would have had to beg for money on a month to month basis. Anything you got from the insurance company they would have taken credit for so that they could justify the high dollar commission you were paying them.

Going on your own is the best choice. You might have to fight for things and money here and there, but for a savings of $50,000 or more I would gladly fight for a lot of things.


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## MuranoJo (Jun 23, 2011)

pbshareman said:


> It doesn't exactly work that way.  Say I'm insured for 300 bazillion dollars for the house and 200 bazillion dollars for the contents.  The insurer will look at the house and perhaps say "I agree, it's a total loss, let's figure out what the cost is to replace it."  That's when the fun starts.  The adjuster will then go room by room through the house itemizing the elements of the house that need to be replaced.  For example, the living room might read 16 x 20, drywall, ceiling fan, 6 electrical outlets, 2 switches, 1 cable box, 2 windows, hardwood floors.  The public adjuster might be more meticulous, mentioning brand names or high end upgrades that were lost, or know that the replacement cost is more than what the adjuster assigned by the insurance company initially lists.  I may be able to understand the bottom line, but I have no idea if the allowances for the replacement costs suggested by the adjuster are high, low, or just right.  The PA benefits by maximizing the claim because he is paid based on what he gets for me.



I used to work in insurance claims, and--unless things have drastically changed in the insurance world--your policy limits do not dictate what you will actually get with a loss, but they do dictate the maximum you will get.  So if your house is over-insured for $300k and the adjuster figures replacement is $250k, you will not get $300k.  This is why it's important to actually review your policy once a year.  You don't want to be paying for over-insurance nor do you want to be under insured.  

Sorry this has happened to you and best of luck.


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## jlr10 (Jun 23, 2011)

chellej said:


> They estimate the cost of the loss , repair etc,  deduct "recoverable depreciation" and the deductible and then send a payment.
> 
> After you pay for the repairs, items etc and submit the receipts, they pay you the depreciation.



Disclaimer: I work in insurance so am coming at it from that angle.   Having said that, in the 30 years that I have been in this field I have never seen a PA help the insured get more than they are entitled to.

As for the this method of handling the claim this is a policy provision in most insurance policies.  The insurance company pays the value of what an insured had and then will pay the difference when the replacement is obtained.  That provision is to prevent people from not replacing the items and then pocketing the difference. The purpose of insurance is to put an insured where you were before the loss, not enrich them, which would be the case if they paid for the replacement of an item before it is replaced, as they have no guarantee it will be replaced, and the insured is then enriched. 

 Also, as noted, the policy limits are not always what is going to be paid.  A total loss does not mean the company is just going to write a check for policy limits.  It means that it is the most it will pay, usually.  They are only going to pay the actual value of the property, so if it is overinsured, they are not going to pay for what wasn't there.  There is also frequently a provision that says if it is underinsured there is going to be a percentage penalty for the difference between what it was insured for and what it should be been insured for, which means less than policy limits might be paid.  One other thing to note is some policies will pay more than the policy limits.  There are endorsements which guarantee the home will be replaced above policy limits if it was insured correctly at the time of loss.  Usually this is limited to a percentage.  This is to help offset increased costs of construction in the case of a catastrophic loss in an area which might drive up construction costs above what is normal.

In this particular OP claim it seems the company is acting in good faith. Until they aren't l suggest you not throw 8% of your coverage limits away.


Bottom line: 1) hiring a public adjuster is not going to get you more than the policy provisions, conditions and limits state.  They might help you identify more provisions of the policy that you might not be aware of, such as obtaining alternate housing, or increased expenses due to your loss, but they are not going to get you any more than the policy states it will pay.  (An attorney might, but that is a different story.) 2) Read your insurance policy *before* you have a loss.  3) Speak with your agent *before* you have a loss.  Discuss optional endorsements that may benefit your personal situation.  So the next time you are contacted by your agent spend some time talking to them, rather than trying to get them off the phone.


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## pbshareman (Jun 23, 2011)

jlr10 said:


> As for the this method of handling the claim this is a policy provision in most insurance policies.  The insurance company pays the value of what an insured had and then will pay the difference when the replacement is obtained.  That provision is to prevent people from not replacing the items and then pocketing the difference. The purpose of insurance is to put an insured where you were before the loss, not enrich them, which would be the case if they paid for the replacement of an item before it is replaced, as they have no guarantee it will be replaced, and the insured is then enriched.
> 
> Also, as noted, the policy limits are not always what is going to be paid.  A total loss does not mean the company is just going to write a check for policy limits.  It means that it is the most it will pay, usually.  They are only going to pay the actual value of the property, so if it is overinsured, they are not going to pay for what wasn't there.  There is also frequently a provision that says if it is underinsured there is going to be a percentage penalty for the difference between what it was insured for and what it should be been insured for, which means less than policy limits might be paid.  One other thing to note is some policies will pay more than the policy limits.  There are endorsements which guarantee the home will be replaced above policy limits if it was insured correctly at the time of loss.  Usually this is limited to a percentage.  This is to help offset increased costs of construction in the case of a catastrophic loss in an area which might drive up construction costs above what is normal.



thanks.  That's what I was trying to describe, without the proper terminology. 




jlr10 said:


> Bottom line: 1) hiring a public adjuster is not going to get you more than the policy provisions, conditions and limits state.  They might help you identify more provisions of the policy that you might not be aware of, such as obtaining alternate housing, or increased expenses due to your loss, but they are not going to get you any more than the policy states it will pay.  (An attorney might, but that is a different story.) 2) Read your insurance policy *before* you have a loss.  3) Speak with your agent *before* you have a loss.  Discuss optional endorsements that may benefit your personal situation.  So the next time you are contacted by your agent spend some time talking to them, rather than trying to get them off the phone.



My agent has never tried to contact me since the original purchase. Maybe I need a new agent. 

I never expected a PA to get me more than my policy limits. I was wondering whether they would help me identify more recoverable items and know when and what to challenge assumptions made by the insurance adjuster. Where I am right now is that the largest portion of my recovery is low hanging fruit, and I'll get it whether I hire a PA or not. The additional items that I might get from a PA will be very costly, because I'll be paying for everything back to dollar one.


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## Tia (Jun 23, 2011)

pbshareman said:


> My agent has never tried to contact me since the original purchase. Maybe I need a new agent.
> 
> .



Might be a good idea. Ours calls on birthdays and send xmass cards. They have also offered to look at coverage we currently have in the past.


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## LUVourMarriotts (Jun 23, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your home.  I wish you the best.

I don't have personal experience, but I can offer some info about my next door neighbors recent insurance woes.  Last winter, a branch fell on her main power line to the house, ripping it from the house slightly.  It also freyed.  At the same time, the something-or-other at the pole was damaged, which allowed massive power surges into her house.  These things combined started a fire in her upstairs, and sent a massive surge into her house.  The fire only ended up damaging the rug, part of a wall and a table because she caught it.  The surge blew everything in her house that was plugged in (all appliances, lights, televisions, etc).  Even blew up a surge protector.  She had to go item by item through insurance to get money.  And they literally paid her for a few items at a time as they processed everything.

She was telling me they gave her numbers like $8 for a VCR, $22 for a DVD player, $350 for a refrigerator, $100 to repair her boiler.  She was obviously out a ton of money to actually replace these items.

So I guess if you can find out what they normally pay for products (they gave my neighbor a replacement funds sheet) that would be in your best interest.  If you find that they are going to screw you, like my neighbor, then you may make out better with the PA.  But I'd also get some references and talk to the people to make sure it worked out in their best interest.

Sorry for the long story.  Good luck.

Update:  Just read the part about low hanging fruit, so you sound like you are good already.  Glad to hear it.


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## tombo (Jun 23, 2011)

jlr10 said:


> Disclaimer: I work in insurance so am coming at it from that angle.   Having said that, in the 30 years that I have been in this field I have never seen a PA help the insured get more than they are entitled to.
> 
> 
> Also, as noted, the policy limits are not always what is going to be paid.  A total loss does not mean the company is just going to write a check for policy limits.  It means that it is the most it will pay, usually.  They are only going to pay the actual value of the property, so if it is overinsured, they are not going to pay for what wasn't there.  There is also frequently a provision that says if it is underinsured there is going to be a percentage penalty for the difference between what it was insured for and what it should be been insured for, which means less than policy limits might be paid.  One other thing to note is some policies will pay more than the policy limits.  There are endorsements which guarantee the home will be replaced above policy limits if it was insured correctly at the time of loss.  Usually this is limited to a percentage.  This is to help offset increased costs of construction in the case of a catastrophic loss in an area which might drive up construction costs above what is normal.
> ...



Not near the experience or knowledge you have, so I appreciate your input. My best friend is an adjuster and he said the easiest claims are total losses because he usually ends up paying policy limits. He said that the value placed on the dwelling was not determined by the customer in most cases, it was determined by the insurance agent using a computerized RCT. He said when people demand policy limits on the dwelling he usually capitulates because in court it will be brought up that the value placed on the dwelling was what the insurance company said it would cost to rebuild, so they pretty much have to pay that, and why go to court and pay attorney fees for something you will end up having to pay anyway? 

Also he said typically people keep finding personal property they "forgot about" until he reaaches the policy limits. He said he does not always pay policy limits, but he usually does on the dwelling and more often than not does on the personal property in a total fire/tornado loss. 

He said if they don't have replacement cost on contents and/or dwelling there can be a problem, but it is more of a problem on personal property than on the dwelling. he said with his company when an ACV policy is issued the policy has depreciation figured in on the dwelling, so it is not insured for what it costs to rebuild in many cases. However he said he still usually pays the dwelling policy limits on those too since the company set the depreciated dwelling value. 

If it is an ACV policy on the contents then how much something that old is worth becomes a headache. The insured thinks their picture tube 10 year old TV is worth $200 even though you can buy all you want in a pawn shop for $50. He said sentimental value comes up and that is worth a total of zero dollars. Most policies have limits on firearems and jewelry. If you have a $20,000 ring and don't have an estimate saying it is worth $20,000 and a rider for the ring/watch/etc added to your policy, you will not get paid for it.

Most horror stories come from the insured not understanding what they purchased. If your policy is replacement cost, you rebuild your house and refurnish it with new items that are like what you had before. If you have an ACV policy you rebuild with the money equivalent to what your house was worth when it burned and what your old furniture.clothes. aplliance, elecctronics, etc, etc, etc would be worth at a yard sale. If your policy is ACV that means actual cash value, and that is all you will get. 

JR10 feel free to correct me if I mistated anything. I definetelly do not have 30 years of experience and bow to one who does.


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## judyjht (Jun 23, 2011)

An adjuster told me once that it is better to call them first since it is easier to START at their dollar amount and go down than try to make the insurance company go UP from their amount.  It was worth the 10% to me because he got us a lot more than the insurance company wanted to give us.  Food for thought.


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## tombo (Jun 23, 2011)

LUVourMarriotts said:


> She was telling me they gave her numbers like $8 for a VCR, $22 for a DVD player, $350 for a refrigerator, $100 to repair her boiler.  She was obviously out a ton of money to actually replace these items.
> 
> So I guess if you can find out what they normally pay for products (they gave my neighbor a replacement funds sheet) that would be in your best interest.  If you find that they are going to screw you, like my neighbor....



If your neighbor had an ACV policy, they get paid what it is worth. A new DVD at Wal Mart is $39. Would you or anyone else pay more than $22 for a used one when you can buy a new one with a warranty for $39? Would you pay more than $8 for a VCR? Most people would not take one for free. My wife gave 2 of ours to salvation army to get them out of the house. would you pay more than $350 for a used refridgerater? I recently purchased one from a newspaper listing for $100 to put in my garage.

If you buy a CHEAPER ACV policy and have a fire/theft/etc, the insurance company is not screwing you when they pay you what the used item is worth. they are paying you based on the type of policy you purchased. If you want them to pay you what it costs to buy a new refridgerater, new dvd player, new clothes, new couch, etc if you have a loss, buy a MORE EXPENSIVE replacement cost policy. 

Your neighbor saved money by buying the cheaper policy. When they had a claim they got exactly what they paid for.


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## tombo (Jun 23, 2011)

judyjht said:


> An adjuster told me once that it is better to call them first since it is easier to START at their dollar amount and go down than try to make the insurance company go UP from their amount.  It was worth the 10% to me because he got us a lot more than the insurance company wanted to give us.  Food for thought.



Of course he would tell you that. Would anyone pay 10% if admitted he provided no value? Did the insurance company or adjuster say without him we were only going to pay X$'s but thanks to him you received X $'s plus 15%? Could you not have simply started with that same number yourself (or something close), worked them up,  and saved 10% of YOUR MONEY?

To the OP please send me 5% of your total payout from your insurance company. I helped tell you how to figure out what you are owed from the web sites i listed which i can assure you will get you more from the insurance company than they would have payed had I not helped you. if you get policy limits or close you would not have done so without me. I can't show you in writing how much more money I got you, just TRUST ME when I say that I got you more money from the insurance company than the 5% I charged you. I can however guarantee I saved you at least 3% of the 8% that guy was going to charge you since you are only paying me 5%. I accept checks, cash, and paypal. 

With a total loss start at policy limits and try to get them to pay policy limits. The number you are trying to get is written on your policy, you don't need anyone else to show you the "figure". Insurance companies are rarelly going to pay over policy limits even if you hire a PA, an attorney, or even if you are best friends with the state insurance commissioner.10% for something most people can do on their own is throwing money away IMHO.


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## pbshareman (Jun 23, 2011)

tombo said:


> If your neighbor had an ACV policy, they get paid what it is worth. A new DVD at Wal Mart is $39. Would you or anyone else pay more than $22 for a used one when you can buy a new one with a warranty for $39? Would you pay more than $8 for a VCR? Most people would not take one for free. My wife gave 2 of ours to salvation army to get them out of the house. would you pay more than $350 for a used refridgerater? I recently purchased one from a newspaper listing for $100.
> 
> If you buy a CHEAPER ACV policy and have a fire/theft/etc, the insurance company is not screwing you when they pay you what the used item is worth. they are paying you based on the type of policy you purchased. If you want them to pay you what it costs to buy a new refridgerater, new dvd player, new clothes, new couch, etc if you have a loss, buy a MORE EXPENSIVE replacement cost policy.
> 
> Your neighbor saved money by buying the cheaper policy. When they had a claim they got exactly what they paid for.



As far as the policy goes, I'm well covered.  I have more than enough coverage.  In Illinois (it may be different in other states), the way it works is that I will prepare a list with the adjuster (or my own adjuster) that will establish values for the items, as well as replacement costs (which is relevant to me only because I have a  replacement cost policy).  Once we agree on the valuation, I will get paid for the depreciated value for the items, and will have a period of time to purchase items to replace the items on my list and when I do, upon submitting evidence, will be reimbursed for the actual replacement cost for those items.

I don't know if there will be a battle over electronic items that may "turn on" now or not.  Just because they turn on doesn't mean they haven't been damaged.  Almost certainly any warranty I might have has been voided.  We'll have to see how that goes, but I'm able to fight those battles right now. 

This is certainly a nightmare, but it could have been much worse.  My best advice to all of you is make sure you don't try to save a few pennies on insurance.  If you ever have to pull you policy out of the file drawer, you may regret it.

Second piece of advice....never run a dryer when you aren't home or when you are sleeping.  The cause and origin investigator told me it is one the most common causes he sees.  We were all awake when our fire started, but that's not to say that I haven't routinely started the dryer before leaving the house or going to bed.  Never again.


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## pbshareman (Jun 23, 2011)

tombo said:


> I accept checks, cash, and paypal.



Send me your paypal account info and I'll see if I can get you reimbursed for putting in your $.02 worth.


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## tombo (Jun 23, 2011)

pbshareman said:


> As far as the policy goes, I'm well covered.  I have more than enough coverage.  In Illinois (it may be different in other states), the way it works is that I will prepare a list with the adjuster (or my own adjuster) that will establish values for the items, as well as replacement costs (which is relevant to me only because I have a  replacement cost policy).  Once we agree on the valuation, I will get paid for the depreciated value for the items, and will have a period of time to purchase items to replace the items on my list and when I do, upon submitting evidence, will be reimbursed for the actual replacement cost for those items.
> 
> 
> Second piece of advice....never run a dryer when you aren't home or when you are sleeping.  The cause and origin investigator told me it is one the most common causes he sees.  We were all awake when our fire started, but that's not to say that I haven't routinely started the dryer before leaving the house or going to bed.  Never again.




Congrats on the replacement cost policy. Insurance bills and expenses are a waste of money until you actually need them. After hearing from younor anyone else who had a total fire loss, to not have a replacement cost policyt is mistake. You might never need it and pay a lot more through the years, but if you ever have a major claim you will forever be glad you spent the extra money. 


One of my good friends had a total loss and he kept remembering things long after he reached contents limits. Towels, clothes, garden tools, X-mas decorations, etc, etc, etc.Someone mentioned it earlier but every year your should go through the entire house with a video camera and video every cabinet, book, open every drawer, video clothes in the closet, get in the attic, garage, everywhere and then put the video in a safet deposit box. You have something to remind yiou of things if you have a total loss, and you have proof of what you owned before it was all taken away.

Good luck to you and yours. The good news is that in a year or so everything you own will be brand new!


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## tombo (Jun 23, 2011)

pbshareman said:


> Send me your paypal account info and I'll see if I can get you reimbursed for putting in your $.02 worth.



I have left the house and gone to sleep many times with the dryer running. Your advice might have saved my home or even mine or my wife's life. Let's just call it even.


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## pbshareman (Jun 23, 2011)

tombo said:


> I have left the house and gone to sleep many times with the dryer running. Your advice might have saved my home or even mine or my wife's life. Let's just call it even.



Wait, if I saved your life, I might be ahead here. I'm going to hire a PA and see if he can get me what your life is worth, and let him keep the 8%. :rofl: 

Thanks again for the feedback. 

Pat


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## tombo (Jun 23, 2011)

pbshareman said:


> Wait, if I saved your life, I might be ahead here. I'm going to hire a PA and see if he can get me what your life is worth, and let him keep the 8%. :rofl:
> 
> Thanks again for the feedback.
> 
> Pat



Better go for what my wife is worth. The 2 cents you offered should just about cover my worth.


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## shagnut (Jun 23, 2011)

*Bad memories*

I am very sorry to hear of your loss but I promise you will get thru it and be pleased with the results . I lost my house and everything I owned back in 1982. The hardest part was sitting in the yard and making the list.  I had a coworker who told me one day, let's go furniture shopping. Huh? I don't have a house to put it in. Once I bought the first piece I was like a kid in a candy store. I need this, I want one of those, etc. 

The adjuster was wonderful. It happened on a Thurs, Fri the adjuster gave me a check for $3,500 and told me to call him on Mon if I needed more. I was like - huh? how can I spend that much in 3 days. He sobered me up quickly when he said Leslie, you need this to find a place to stay, buy makeup, underwear, clothes, clothes & toys for Kelli, pots & pans, etc.  The first thing I bought was a doll for Kelli. 

I did not need an attorney, an appraiser, etc. What made the difference was the adjuster. What you need is a GOOD, EMPATHETIC adjuster. 

Good luck to you. I can assure you that it will be better , that is a promise. I got by by saving, oh heck, I needed to remodel anyway!! 

Hugs, Shaggy


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## cgeidl (Jun 23, 2011)

*Depends on your insurance company reputation*

We are lucky and have USAA for home insurance and I would not need any assistance,however for a disability case I had I did need to pay for assistance when I found out they disallowed 97 % of the first submission of disability claims. Paid a lawyer specialist for three or four hours and it was worth it.
I had a friend whose house burned down and the insurance company held onto their money. He hired an expert and did quite well as they have massive lists of contents and they add up fast.$36000 is way too high IMHO and you probably can hire an expert hourly and do much of the work yourself.Bur t first see if you can get afeeking about the fairness of your insurance company.,


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## easyrider (Jun 23, 2011)

For the structure I would call a couple of good general contractors who work with insurance company and adjuster. Most of the contractors are using xactimate software to figure out cost.

For your personal belongings you can work with an approved resource broker.

http://replacementsource.com/


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## pbshareman (Aug 22, 2011)

*****update*****

Well, this has been an education of sorts for me.  I was warned by the insurance company that if I hired a public adjuster that it would take much longer and I would ultimately end up with less after the adjuster took his share.

Two plus months post fire and there has been no work done on the home.  The first thirty days were waiting for the manufacturer of the dryer to get in to inspect the scene and supervise the removal of the dryer (the insurance company put them on notice of a potential subrogation claim).  That's fine and I completely understand.  In the mean time, rain has penetrated the structure (since there was no roof or roof system left to speak of, and the tarp could only withstand so much), so the damage has actually gotten worse.  

The insurance company hired a restoration company to prepare a proposal for restoring (not tearing down, but restoring) the premises.  His number was very close to policy limits.  Then the insruance company adjuster reviewed the quote and after he was done, twenty percent of the restoration proposal was removed.

I was invited to get a bid from a builder, which I did.  That quote was right at the policy limit number, give or take a few thousand.  I then, on my own, reviewed the modified proposal from the adjuster.  I'm not mechanically inclined, and know very little about building or construction, but I was able to review the proposal and come up with a list of items that I thought could be challenged.  I think I did fairly well, since when I was done with the adjuster from the insruance company, the number was actually HIGHER than the proposal from the restoration company (I even identified items that they had missed).  

We're not done yeat, but we're moving in the right direction and at the end of the day, I should be building a new house soon.

Thanks again for the advice.


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## Rose Pink (Aug 23, 2011)

I hope this works out for you soon.  What a nightmare!


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## loafingcactus (Aug 23, 2011)

Rose Pink said:


> I hope this works out for you soon.  What a nightmare!



+1. A house fire is one of my biggest fears.


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## Talent312 (Oct 3, 2018)

George jones said:


> Replacement stuff has to be legal.



_... another example why dead-threads should be locked, IMHO._
George, you are replying to a post from 2011.
You need to look at the date of the last post.


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## DeniseM (Oct 3, 2018)

I closed this one, but the problem is that one Tugger's "dead-thread," is another Tugger's "fascinating topic," so we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.


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