# Westin Riverfront Villas, Avon, CO [merged]



## aytug (Aug 30, 2009)

Stayed there for a weekend. What a gorgeous property! We went for an owners update, they offered us a 2BD lock off for $45K (worth 148100 options), plus 148100 options as a promo, plus 75000 points.

I thought this was a great deal. The resort only has 34 villa units, no resales to be found on ebay or anywhere else. Any thoughts?


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## Ken555 (Aug 30, 2009)

148,100 StarOptions as a promo? This is in addition to your annual use for the first year, so you would actually be able to use 296,200 the first year?


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## SDKath (Aug 30, 2009)

Beautiful property from what I heard too.  They do have a second building planned for TSs but has been put on hold until the economy recovers.  I think the units were going for about $40,000 when sales first opened in the Spring of 2009.  I have never heard of an SO promo though.  Do you mean they will give you this year's SO's if you pay the MFs for 2009?  I would look real carefully at those options because if they expire in 2009, you won't really be able to use them.  Also, the MFs are very high at this resort.

That said, I love the location and the gondola on site!  First ski season is coming up for the property and if we can manage, we are going to try to go!

Katherine


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## pianodinosaur (Aug 30, 2009)

Does the retro option still apply within Starwood?  If I were a starwood owner who had purchased resale, I would be inclined to ask if the previous resort, say SDO which had been purchased resale, could be given staroptions retroactively with the option to convert into spg points as well prior to making the purchase from starwood.


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## DeniseM (Aug 30, 2009)

Based on the resale history of the other new voluntary SVN resorts, resales at this property will show up soon for *50% of retail*.  I would wait!


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## aytug (Aug 30, 2009)

Ken555 said:


> 148,100 StarOptions as a promo? This is in addition to your annual use for the first year, so you would actually be able to use 296,200 the first year?



that's my understanding


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## aytug (Aug 30, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> Based on the resale history of the other new voluntary SVN resorts, resales at this property will show up soon for *50% of retail*.  I would wait!



Denise, I have same hope, but this one is really different -- in a prime ski destination and there is only 34 of them! There is one not far from Avon -- in Steamboat Springs and that one has 29 units, but no lockoffs. I hope you are right, as I want to see some resales of this one. By the way, they offered to retro my resale bought unit as well.


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## SDKath (Aug 30, 2009)

aytug said:


> Denise, I have same hope, but this one is really different -- in a prime ski destination and there is only 34 of them! There is one not far from Avon -- in Steamboat Springs and that one has 29 units, but no lockoffs. I hope you are right, as I want to see some resales of this one. By the way, they offered to retro my resale bought unit as well.



Excellent!  The retro should help cushion the blow.    What do you own that is resale?  Hopefully it's worth a lot of SOs.  I would insist on you getting those bonus SOs in 2010 so they don't expire on you too soon.

As for resale value, the BEST resorts only maintain 50% value, as Denise said.  Remember they can build another building (and a few smaller "cabana" type buildings along the river too) so the "exclusivity" will not be forever.  When demand goes up, they will be able to put a bunch of units in.  I would only buy there to use (or rent out peak ski weeks) because MFs are through the roof even from day 1.

Katherine


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## Catazog (Aug 30, 2009)

aytug said:


> Stayed there for a weekend. What a gorgeous property! We went for an owners update, they offered us a 2BD lock off for $45K (worth 148100 options), plus 148100 options as a promo, plus 75000 points.
> 
> I thought this was a great deal. The resort only has 34 villa units, no resales to be found on ebay or anywhere else. Any thoughts?



Do the villas have air conditioning? That is one major thing that is lacking at the Sheraton Mountain Vista, as much as we like it there.


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## pathways25 (Aug 30, 2009)

SDKath said:


> Excellent!  The retro should help cushion the blow.    What do you own that is resale?  Hopefully it's worth a lot of SOs.  I would insist on you getting those bonus SOs in 2010 so they don't expire on you too soon.



The incentive offer I received for an EOY at Lagunamar was 110,000 SP's and 148,100 SO's for use in 2010.


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## SDKath (Aug 31, 2009)

Catazog said:


> Do the villas have air conditioning? That is one major thing that is lacking at the Sheraton Mountain Vista, as much as we like it there.



Yes they do.  K


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## SDKath (Aug 31, 2009)

jeromechen said:


> The incentive offer I received for an EOY at Lagunamar was 110,000 SP's and 148,100 SO's for use in 2010.



That's a really good incentive for an EOY actually compared to what others have posted about their incentives this year.  But they are probably more anxious to sell Cancun (oversold timesharewise plus they have a LOT of units to sell at WLR itself) as compared to Riverfront, I would think.

Katherine


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## Catazog (Aug 31, 2009)

*A/C in Riverfront*

Thank you Katherine. This is most excellent news!


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## LisaRex (Aug 31, 2009)

If you really love the property (which probably won't be avail for resale purchase for awhile) AND have a platinum 2 bdrm which you can requalify and get 148,100 SOs (why not requalify all that you can?) AND they're throwing in 75k SPs....in this limited instance, I'd say that IF you can afford it (and by that I mean that you have at least 12 months of savings in the bank + a healthy 401k, etc) and IF you won't be financing it.....then I'd say go for it. 

How's that for a qualified endorsement?


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## Seattlenerd (Aug 31, 2009)

I'm getting mixed messages on FlyerTalk about the timeshare portion of the Westin Riverfront and parking. I know the hotel has an outrageous parking fee. Any word about the timeshares?


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## zinger1457 (Sep 1, 2009)

Seattlenerd said:


> I'm getting mixed messages on FlyerTalk about the timeshare portion of the Westin Riverfront and parking. I know the hotel has an outrageous parking fee. Any word about the timeshares?



I'll be there next week and sure hope there isn't any expense for parking.  My reservation states "Valet parking (fees apply) is available at the resort. There is also ample self-parking in the parking garage."  I assume this to mean the self parking is free.


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## Catazog (Sep 2, 2009)

zinger1457 said:


> I'll be there next week and sure hope there isn't any expense for parking.  My reservation states "Valet parking (fees apply) is available at the resort. There is also ample self-parking in the parking garage."  I assume this to mean the self parking is free.



I'd love to hear your impressions!


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## Robert D (Sep 2, 2009)

I don't understand how you can justify $45K for this timeshare. I know it's very nice but I'd just rent a unit for a few years until resales become available.  That would have to save you money in the long run, even if you pay top dollar for a rental.  BTW, how much are the maintenance fees?


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## DeniseM (Sep 2, 2009)

Here is the latest (that I have) sales info. sheet from Starwod with the MF's, etc.


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## Twinkstarr (Sep 2, 2009)

DeniseM said:


> Here is the latest (that I have) sales info. sheet from Starwod with the MF's, etc.



Yep, that's what I remembered.

 Slap Westin on the place and you'll pay min $2000 in MF's for a 2br.


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## zinger1457 (Sep 6, 2009)

At the Westin Riverfront now, very nice resort, right next to the river and great views of the mountains.  Obviously known as a great ski resort, this is an excellent place to visit during the off season if you like outdoor activities (hiking, biking, fishing, golfing, etc.).  There's a gondola right in front of the villas for those that visit during the ski season. 

To clarify on the parking, it is free for Villa guest but cost $30/night for hotel guest.  All parking is underground and can be chaotic at times when you have groups arriving and leaving at the same time.  The front entrance just doesn't have enough room to handle more than a 7-8 vehicles at the same time.


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## SDKath (Sep 6, 2009)

zinger1457 said:


> At the Westin Riverfront now, very nice resort, right next to the river and great views of the mountains.  Obviously known as a great ski resort, this is an excellent place to visit during the off season if you like outdoor activities (hiking, biking, fishing, golfing, etc.).  There's a gondola right in front of the villas for those that visit during the ski season.
> 
> To clarify on the parking, it is free for Villa guest but cost $30/night for hotel guest.  All parking is underground and can be chaotic at times when you have groups arriving and leaving at the same time.  The front entrance just doesn't have enough room to handle more than a 7-8 vehicles at the same time.



Thanks for the update!  PLEASE take some pix (I think you'd be the first TUGger to bring back pictures).  Denise or I can help you post them.  

Have a great time...  Katherine


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## nodge (Sep 6, 2009)

Here is a newly posted professional video showcasing the Westin Riverfront Resort & Spa.  

Google isn't finding much new info about the villas though . . . still just a bunch of artists renderings, so please post real pix if you got 'em.

-nodge


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## zinger1457 (Sep 9, 2009)

Have a few photos from the Westin Riverfront but will need help, currently don't have rights to post attachments

Went through the owners review, they offered 8K starpoints to sit through the sales pitch.  This was definitely low pressure compared to the ones I've been through at WKV.  They are selling a 2BR summer week for $25,900/95.7Kstaroptions, this comes with 120K starpoints as an incentive.   Didn't even discuss premium season prices after I mentioned that I don't ski.  Maintenance fees are high, $2200/year.  There is an empty lot that has been cleared next to the current villa building but according to the salesman there are no current plans to expand.  This place is tied to the hip to the next door Westin resort, have full access to the resorts fitness center, pool, business center, etc.  Met Gary McCord (golf analyst) working out in the fitness center this morning.


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## DeniseM (Sep 9, 2009)

Zinger - you can send them to me as an email attachment and I would be glad to post them - dbmmayer@gmail.com.  Just so you know, anyone can post pictures on TUG, you just have to have a place to host them, like www.photobucket.com.


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## zinger1457 (Sep 11, 2009)

Have a few photos of the villas posted to photobucket.  The artist rendering drawings on the SVO website of the villa interiors are 100% accurate, down to the furniture fabric, colors, and pictures on the wall, so didn't include any photos.  The video link of the resort that Nodge posted is very good and will show anything you would want to see of the resort.  If there is anything else you want to see let me know ASAP, I leave tomorow.

http://s776.photobucket.com/albums/yy49/zinger1457/


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## saluki (Nov 3, 2009)

Can someone tell me exactly where the gondola drops you off when riding from Riverfront Villas to the ski area?


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## saluki (Nov 3, 2009)

saluki said:


> Can someone tell me exactly where the gondola drops you off when riding from Riverfront Villas to the ski area?



Nevermind...just found this map.


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## Gemini3 (Nov 3, 2009)

*Gondola drop off*

The Gondola drop off allows you to walk to the next lift or catch a bus to the main Beaver Creek Village. There is a bus stop outside the Villas that will take you up to Vail as well for $4.


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## nodge (Feb 4, 2010)

*Gondola closing April 4, 2010 till next ski season*

I don't know if the riverfront gondola running is all that important in the Spring, Summer and Fall, but this announcement says that it will be closing on April 4 and it won't run again until next ski season.

FYI,
-nodge


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## RLG (Feb 4, 2010)

nodge said:


> I don't know if the riverfront gondola running is all that important in the Spring, Summer and Fall, but this announcement says that it will be closing on April 4 and it won't run again until next ski season.
> 
> FYI,
> -nodge



I think that's the normal schedule.  

I was there in Dec08 and it hadn't started running for the season yet.  During ski season, the issue is that it doesn't make sense to run it if there's no snow where it lets you off.


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## BrianV (Feb 6, 2010)

Just stayed at the Westin and sat through the pitch.  I've sat through Marriott ones before and was never turned on, but after thinking long and hard, we pulled the trigger on an EOY.

Frankly, my fiance and I love Beaver Creek skiing and have skiied across the world and this is our #1 spot.  The gondola, ski valet, and spa at the Westin are all perfect for skiiers like us.

Offer as of 2/5/2010:
$38,900 2br lock-out, 148,100 platinum plus week.  MF fees at $1,8xx.
Promos:  120k SPG points, 148,100 StarOptions for 2010 or 2011 (your choice).

I really struggle with the maintenance fees, but I also understand that staying at the Westin will cost you a TON of money or a TON of SPG points if we want to repeat this every year.  Also, the Westin hotel has many resident owned rooms so it's sort of a hybrid hotel in its own right.  I struggled to use points for our stay and ended up having to use points for some of it and pay ~$400 / night for the night I couldn't get with points.  Apparently, the hotel offers less award rooms due to the way its run.

At the end of the day, we love the property, LOVE Beaver Creek, and really like Avon.  Although I could see a trip to Atlantis coming of this (or maybe St. John), we definitely will use this as much as possible for skiing.

Due to my hesitation, I took a EOY for $24,900 with an option to purchase the other year for $14,000 (totaling the same $38,900) within 12 months or first right of refusal if they begin to sell out (they're half sold now for ski weeks).  Perks for EOY were 60k SPG and 148,100 which I have going effective in 2011; my first year is 2012.  Maint fee is $939 per year.

It's a bit steep, and I really wish I could break the lockout up each year as we don't need the two bedrooms.  I will decide later this year if I want to do the $14k offer, but it may be overkill.  If I keep the EOY, I'll either rent out one unit or cash it out for SPG points.  Since I can make that decision on March 31st, and ski season is before that, it may work out.

According to them, I have 5 days to change my mind due to Colorado law.  I'm still internally debating it, especially after finding this site, but at the same time, this is where we want to be every year.  I really wish they just had a 1BR we could've done every year on.

Cheers,
Brian

PS - They made no mention of expanding and continued to say "ONLY 34 VILLAs".  I didn't ask, but the continued 34 villas reference was mentioned by them like 10+ times.


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## DeniseM (Feb 6, 2010)

Brian - Hi and welcome to TUG!  

*I am a long time Starwood owner and I strongly urge you to rescind!*

You are paying far too much when you buy from the developer!  

Let me give you an example - in 2003 I bought at the Maui resort - preconstruction and paid $45K for a 2 bdm. unit.  Now the same unit is selling for about *$15K* on the resale market.  To add insult to injury, my maintenance fee has doubled in that time!

Please read this article about rescinding and then let us know what questions you have.

Couple more thoughts:



> Although I could see a trip to Atlantis coming of this (or maybe St. John)


  What they didn't tell you, I'm sure, is that St. John is a nearly impossible exchange and Atlantis is also very difficult.



> I really struggle with the maintenance fees


  Even worse - you can expect it to increase 10% or more every year, based on MF increases at the other new resorts.



> They made no mention of expanding and continued to say "ONLY 34 VILLAs". I didn't ask, but the continued 34 villas reference was mentioned by them like 10+ times.


  When we bought on Maui they told us it was going to be the last resort on Ka'anapali Beach, then they immediately built another one right next door, and made plans to build a 3rd one next to it....


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## BrianV (Feb 6, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Brian - Hi and welcome to TUG!
> 
> *I am a long time Starwood owner and I strongly urge you to rescind!*
> 
> ...



Thanks, I'm leaning towards rescinding now after reading some additional threads since I posted that.  I also saw the article you sent and found the directions in my contract which are very basic.  It states I have five days to do it by written mail, telegram, or in person.  If done by telegram of mail, it will be based on transmission time or postmark.  I will draft a letter mentioning it has nothing to do with the sales process or the property, but just that there is overwhelming outcry from SVN owners about unreasonable MF increases.

It'll be simple to the point, I'm sure they'll try to talk me out of it, but no means no.

On a final note, I was promised 8k SPG points for attending.  Should I assume they'll revoke those after I rescind?  Frankly I don't care, but I feel those were irrespective of the deal.


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## BrianV (Feb 6, 2010)

Does the section I talked about above seem like it, or is there another section I haven't found yet.  On the thread you provided a link to, it mentions a subject, where mine just says "Rescinding Period" which then mentions there are five days and to refer to another section which states the paragraph I wrote.


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## DeniseM (Feb 6, 2010)

No - if you earned points for attending the presentation you should keep them.

I'm so glad you found us in time!

After you rescind, come back and talk timeshare with us.  Then you can take your time, do your homework and make a decision with no pressure.

In this economy, there are lots of great TS's out there that are even being given away, so you have lots of options that you won't need to finance.


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## DeniseM (Feb 6, 2010)

Brian - Those directions in your Doc's sound correct and you should follow them *exactly*.  Note that your letter only has to be postmarked by the required day - not received.

In your letter you don't have to give ANY reason - and I wouldn't.  That just gives them something to use against you.  There is a very simple sample letter in the FAQ and I'd stick with something like that.


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## BrianV (Feb 6, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Brian - Those directions in your Doc's sound correct and you should follow them *exactly*.  Note that your letter only has to be postmarked by the required day - not received.
> 
> In your letter you don't have to give ANY reason - and I wouldn't.  That just gives them something to use against you.  There is a very simple sample letter in the FAQ and I'd stick with something like that.



Thanks, I saw that.  I planned on adding that since I saw in other threads that TUG members requested others to do it to help on their beefs.  I'm sure they'll call and I'll explain I just read so many things and that my mind can't be changed, etc.

I appreciate your prompt attention.  The address appears to be location of the timeshare office so I assume it's right.  I'll make sure both me and my fiance sign it.  I always worry they'll find something to deny the request (wrong address, pretend they didn't receive it, etc.).  However, it seems other people have been able to rescind without issue.

It's quite unfortunate on some level, we really love this place, but we truly want a yearly and I know I can hold out and get one in the next 5-10 years for likely a fraction of the capital.  In the meantime, I'll rely on the $80k I spend on my SPG card on work expenses


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## BrianV (Feb 6, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> No - if you earned points for attending the presentation you should keep them.
> 
> I'm so glad you found us in time!
> 
> ...



Sorry, I'm replying out of order.  The basic concept of TS sounds great for me and  my fiance.  We've enjoyed benefits of my work (huge budget, unlimited airline miles, hotel points, etc.).  I know this will come to an end at some point, but after hearing from you guys, dropping $40k on top of painful MFs just isn't the smartest move.

Thanks


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## DeniseM (Feb 7, 2010)

> overwhelming outcry from SVN owners about unreasonable MF increases.



From my personal point of view, I'd be thrilled if you told them this - they need to hear it and it sounds like you can take the heat!

Starwood does seem to be ethical about allowing people to exercise their legal right to rescind.  As long as you follow the directions and have all your receipts, you should be fine.


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## BrianV (Feb 7, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> From my personal point of view, I'd be thrilled if you told them this - they need to hear it and it sounds like you can take the heat!
> 
> Starwood does seem to be ethical about allowing people to exercise their legal right to rescind.  As long as you follow the directions and have all your receipts, you should be fine.



Thanks again.  I already drafted the letter.  I made a couple slight modifications to yours, but the theme is simple and to the point.  I will fax and mail certified and I'm debating emailing both of the contacts I worked with with a PDF copy of exactly what is being sent with tracking info. 

I'm not sure if that'll cause more anguish than good (phone calls from sales people, etc.).

Finally, does the rescind letter need to be notarized.  I see no mention of it here or in the contract, but obviously I just want to make sure I didn't overlook something.

Thanks a million, I'm excited to learn more and make a more educated TS purchase under this community's guidance.


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## DeniseM (Feb 7, 2010)

BrianV said:


> Finally, does the rescind letter need to be notarized.  I see no mention of it here or in the contract, but obviously I just want to make sure I didn't overlook something.



No, it doesn't.

Please let us know how it goes.

To start your homework, I'd suggest the Starwood FAQ at the top of the page.


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## BrianV (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks again, I'll have to do this on Monday (we signed on Friday).  As other similar thread's have shown, I'll give the play by play; I'll start another thread as to not hijack this thread any further.

The Westin Riverfront is a great resort, but obviously after coming here, it's not the right deal for us, but I would highly recommend anyone to stay there or buy there under the right conditions.

Cheers,
Brian


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## Ken555 (Feb 7, 2010)

Denise to the rescue...again!


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## DanCali (Feb 7, 2010)

BrianV said:


> Thanks again.  I already drafted the letter.  I made a couple slight modifications to yours, but the theme is simple and to the point.  I will fax and mail certified and I'm debating emailing both of the contacts I worked with with a PDF copy of exactly what is being sent with tracking info.
> 
> I'm not sure if that'll cause more anguish than good (phone calls from sales people, etc.).
> 
> ...



Congratulations on your decision to rescind. You will probably not regret it and if you do know that the deal is always on the table, including the "only today" incentives. Any deal offered by a sales office is available via telesales, but of course they won't even tell you that you can buy via phone...

I would not send a copy to the sales people. I'm sure they were nice and all and you may feel a bit bad about the whole thing... but don't. After you do some more reading here you will see the many ommissions of critical information (and sometimes lies) they are guilty of.

I'd send two or three copies of the letter to where you need to send it (fedex, certified, and fax) and then follow up with a call, ask to speak to the contract department, and ask them for an email confirmation they got your letter. Be persistent. However, as other mentioned, Starwood is pretty good about leting you rescind. They have 15 business days from the day they get your notice to refund your money.

Take your time, learn about the system, learn about other systems and make an informed decision.

Welcome to TUG.


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## Pit (Feb 7, 2010)

Incidently, there is a resale week on myresortnetwork. This is the first resale I've seen, but I haven't really been looking much. Anyone else seen Riverfront resales?


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## BrianV (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks again for all of the help on making this decision.  I’m going through the process of rescinding our Time Share Agreement.  The actual address for rescission notices to be sent is 9002 San Marco Court, Orlando, Florida 32819.  This is also the address listed in another area of documentation (not the Agreement though) as Starwood Vacation Ownership.  It mentions addressing it to the attention of the Document Origination Department.

I have two questions:  1) Telegram is listed as an acceptable method of providing the notice, but I do not see a fax number to submit via this method.   2) The actual text in the Statutory Rescission Statement does not list a company, just the address in Orlando I mentioned above.  Shall I address it to Starwood Vacation Ownership or POINTS OF COLOARDO, INC. which is listed in the Sales Agreement as “Seller”.  In my letter, I’ve addressed it to both, but what should I put on the envelope when I mail this?
I plan on sending via USPS Certified Mail as well as by fax (if I can find a number).  I’ve requested confirmation via both email and mailed letter to our address.

Thanks again!


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## BrianV (Feb 7, 2010)

Pit said:


> Incidently, there is a resale week on myresortnetwork. This is the first resale I've seen, but I haven't really been looking much. Anyone else seen Riverfront resales?



$4,200, wow.  I'll be watching this, he has less than a week to get it done.


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## DeniseM (Feb 7, 2010)

BrianV said:


> I have two questions:  1) Telegram is listed as an acceptable method of providing the notice, but I do not see a fax number to submit via this method.



I don't believe this is a FAX - they literally mean an old fashion telegram - they are expensive, I'd stick with registered mail.



> 2) The actual text in the Statutory Rescission Statement does not list a company, just the address in Orlando I mentioned above.  Shall I address it to Starwood Vacation Ownership or POINTS OF COLOARDO, INC. which is listed in the Sales Agreement as “Seller”.  In my letter, I’ve addressed it to both, but what should I put on the envelope when I mail this?
> I plan on sending via USPS Certified Mail as well as by fax (if I can find a number).  I’ve requested confirmation via both email and mailed letter to our address.



Brian - I have never head of Starwood not allowing someone to legally rescind, as long as the person made a reasonable effort to follow the instructions.  So I don't think you have to worry about whether your address it exactly right or not.  To cover all your bases, you could put Starwood Vacation Ownership in the top line, and  POINTS OF COLOARDO, INC. in the second line of the address, but I don't think that is going to make or break your rescission.


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## Pit (Feb 7, 2010)

BrianV said:


> $4,200, wow.  I'll be watching this, he has less than a week to get it done.



You're looking at the rental, which I don't think stands a chance at that price. Here is the resale listing. I don't know how this asking price compares to retail, but of course, resale prices are always negotiable. 

http://www.myresortnetwork.com/Timeshares-For-Sale/Avon/Colorado/Westin-Riverfront-Mountain-Villas/


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## DanCali (Feb 7, 2010)

BrianV said:


> I plan on sending via USPS Certified Mail as well as by fax (if I can find a number).  I’ve requested confirmation via both email and mailed letter to our address.
> 
> Thanks again!



I believe the fax number is 407-903-4718

You can also call owner services (888-WV-OWNER) and ask for the fax number for the appropriate department. You also may have gotten a "welcome email"  with a contact number for questions - you can call them and ask for the fax number. But I'm pretty sure the number above should work...

I doubt you'd get a confirmation unless you specifically call and bug them enough about it...


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## Robert D (Feb 8, 2010)

It's a matter of time before you see the price at this resort plunge. There was a large 1BR annual winter ski week at Sheraton Mountain Vista that sold on Ebay for $255 today.  Now seems like a good time to rent at the Westin until a good supply of resales appears over the next couple years.


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## K2Quick (Feb 8, 2010)

Robert D said:


> It's a matter of time before you see the price at this resort plunge. There was a large 1BR annual winter ski week at Sheraton Mountain Vista that sold on Ebay for $255 today.  Now seems like a good time to rent at the Westin until a good supply of resales appears over the next couple years.



Here's another 1 bed SMV ski week ending in a few days currently at $1.  It's not the Westin, but if the poster is only interested in a one bed unit and loves Beaver Creek, this seems like a good option.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290398417143&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


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## BrianV (Feb 8, 2010)

K2Quick said:


> Here's another 1 bed SMV ski week ending in a few days currently at $1.  It's not the Westin, but if the poster is only interested in a one bed unit and loves Beaver Creek, this seems like a good option.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290398417143&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT



Thanks.  Unfortunately, that place is no where near as convenient as the Westin, although it still is convenient by most skiing standards.  It doesn't offer the ski valet and would require a solid 5-10 minute walk (with boots and skis).  Also, I've read mixed reviews regarding its amenities and cleanliness.  I'd definitely rent there and check it out for a vacation before I get involved with it.


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## ondeadlin (Feb 8, 2010)

BrianV said:


> Thanks.  Unfortunately, that place is no where near as convenient as the Westin, although it still is convenient by most skiing standards.  It doesn't offer the ski valet and would require a solid 5-10 minute walk (with boots and skis).  Also, I've read mixed reviews regarding its amenities and cleanliness.  I'd definitely rent there and check it out for a vacation before I get involved with it.



No walk required - the bus stops right outside the Sheraton and then it's 2 minutes to the gondola. And while there isn't a ski valet, there are first floor ski lockers. 

I've stayed there multiple times and there are no issues with cleanliness IMO.


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## DanCali (Feb 8, 2010)

BrianV said:


> Thanks.  Unfortunately, that place is no where near as convenient as the Westin, although it still is convenient by most skiing standards.  It doesn't offer the ski valet and would require a solid 5-10 minute walk (with boots and skis).  Also, I've read mixed reviews regarding its amenities and cleanliness.  I'd definitely rent there and check it out for a vacation before I get involved with it.



From what I read about SMV I'd be pretty bothered by the lack of air conditioning. Opening windows to let the excess heat escape is not my thing...


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## DeniseM (Feb 8, 2010)

DanCali said:


> From what I read about SMV I'd be pretty bothered by the lack of air conditioning. Opening windows to let the excess heat escape is not my thing...



But probably not an issue during ski season - when this couple wants to go.


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## DeniseM (Feb 8, 2010)

BrianV said:


> Thanks.  Unfortunately, that place is no where near as convenient as the Westin, although it still is convenient by most skiing standards.  It doesn't offer the ski valet and would require a solid 5-10 minute walk (with boots and skis).  Also, I've read mixed reviews regarding its amenities and cleanliness.  I'd definitely rent there and check it out for a vacation before I get involved with it.



Brian - if you join TUG you will have access to our extensive review section.  It tends to be a lot more accurate than non-TS sites, because the reviews are written by TS owners, for TS owners.

There are 20 reviews for SMV and Tuggers rate it 8.66 - which I would consider a B+.

It's not the new Westin....but it's not $40K either...and the MF is a lot less:

Sheraton Mountain Vista (Small 1 bdm.) - $651.11
Sheraton Mountain Vista (Large 1 bdm.) - $810.01
Sheraton Mountain Vista (2 bdm. lockoff) - $1,160.92


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## DanCali (Feb 8, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> But probably not an issue during ski season - when this couple wants to go.



Many of the Trip Advisor reviews actually say that the SMV rooms are overheated in the winter and there is no way to control that besides opening windows. There is no temperature control in the rooms (at least that's what I understood).


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## BrianV (Feb 8, 2010)

Thanks to all.  I will look into joining TUG.  I really haven't ventured outside the forums.  Like I mentioned before, I would likely rent somewhere before I made a commitment to a purchase.

Anyways, thanks again to all.  I sent the rescind packet out today via certified priority USPS and also faxed it to the 407 number provided earlier and in other threads.  Although fax wasn't mentioned, it and the certified mail should suffice.  I watched her post mark it and have the certified receipt which is also post marked for the 8th.


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## DeniseM (Feb 8, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Many of the Trip Advisor reviews actually say that the SMV rooms are overheated in the winter and there is no way to control that besides opening windows. There is no temperature control in the rooms (at least that's what I understood).



Ah ha - thanks for that info.  

For $1, I could totally live with cracking a window, but as you guys know, I'M CHEAP AND PROUD OF IT!  

Just curious - would you really turn the AC on in winter?


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## ondeadlin (Feb 8, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Many of the Trip Advisor reviews actually say that the SMV rooms are overheated in the winter and there is no way to control that besides opening windows. There is no temperature control in the rooms (at least that's what I understood).



We didn't find the heat problematic, but if we did there's a sliding door to the balconies that could have easily been opened. In addition, each unit had its own gas grill, which was a nice touch.


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## keepgoing (Feb 8, 2010)

*Is wk 51, 52 or 7 counted as event wk in all Westin Colorado*

Is the points in Westin Colorado are truly points? meaning if I have enough points I can book any week as long as there is availability?  For example, Westin Maui have 51 and 52 set aside as event week which you cannot reserve even you have enought points and there is availability.  Any place I can find these special event weeks information about all Starwood resorts, beside tug  

Thanks.
Chun


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## DanCali (Feb 8, 2010)

shopfordeal said:


> Is the points in Westin Colorado are truly points? meaning if I have enough points I can book any week as long as there is availability?  For example, Westin Maui have 51 and 52 set aside as event week which you cannot reserve even you have enought points and there is availability.  Any place I can find these special event weeks information about all Starwood resorts, beside tug
> 
> Thanks.
> Chun



Not sure about week 7 but weeks 51 and 52 in Hawaii and Colorado were sold as event weeks. Harborside Phase I were sold all units as fixed weeks so ownes typically get their deeded weeks. I don't think other locations have these weeks as event weeks.


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## Robert D (Feb 9, 2010)

BrianV said:


> Thanks.  Unfortunately, that place is no where near as convenient as the Westin, although it still is convenient by most skiing standards.  It doesn't offer the ski valet and would require a solid 5-10 minute walk (with boots and skis).  Also, I've read mixed reviews regarding its amenities and cleanliness.  I'd definitely rent there and check it out for a vacation before I get involved with it.



Guess it depends on how much money you want to spend.  Even without the shuttle I'd walk 5-10 minutes to save $35K but that's just me.


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## Twinkstarr (Feb 9, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Not sure about week 7 but weeks 51 and 52 in Hawaii and Colorado were sold as event weeks. Harborside Phase I were sold all units as fixed weeks so ownes typically get their deeded weeks. I don't think other locations have these weeks as event weeks.



I'm pretty sure the new Westin has week 7 as an event week. Both Lakeside Terrace and Sheraton Mountain Vista have weeks 7,51,52 as event weeks.

My LT is 1-6, 8-15 plat. float.


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## BrianV (Feb 9, 2010)

Twinkstarr said:


> I'm pretty sure the new Westin has week 7 as an event week. Both Lakeside Terrace and Sheraton Mountain Vista have weeks 7,51,52 as event weeks.
> 
> My LT is 1-6, 8-15 plat. float.



It's not an event week only 51-52 are.  The weeks were 48-50,1-15 if I recall correctly.


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## BrianV (Feb 9, 2010)

Robert D said:


> Guess it depends on how much money you want to spend.  Even without the shuttle I'd walk 5-10 minutes to save $35K but that's just me.



It's more than $35k, that's just the principle.  It'd be another $1k per year savings in maint. fees. However, I'd probably pay the extra $1k / year for what the Westin offers (ski valet, convenience, nicer amenities, newer, etc.).

Finally, I have slightly more confidence in something with the "Westin" brand being kept up to snuff and kept premium.  I have this same feeling about the hotels.  I've stayed at some pretty poorly kept up Sheratons, but not so much for Westins.

All that said, I'm glad I rescinded, and I'll definitely be looking around to catch a deal.  I may try to rent at the Avon Sheraton next year to see if it's worth snagging one on Ebay for $1


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## J&JFamily (Feb 9, 2010)

I'll be staying at both the Westin Riverfront Villas (in Avon) and the Sheraton Steamboat Villas (in Steamboat Springs) this summer and will post pictures and reports of both locations/resorts.  I know that summer is a lot different than winter b/c we won't be skiing/snowboarding, however, I will still share my experiences at both resorts.  If we have time we'll try to do the "owner's updates" while at the resorts, so I'll try to get as much info at that time and share with everyone here on TUG.


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## BrianV (Feb 9, 2010)

J&JFamily said:


> I'll be staying at both the Westin Riverfront Villas (in Avon) and the Sheraton Steamboat Villas (in Steamboat Springs) this summer and will post pictures and reports of both locations/resorts.  I know that summer is a lot different than winter b/c we won't be skiing/snowboarding, however, I will still share my experiences at both resorts.  If we have time we'll try to do the "owner's updates" while at the resorts, so I'll try to get as much info at that time and share with everyone here on TUG.



Thanks, I'll definitely stay tuned.  Although I've read wonderful things about the Steamboat property, from a skiing standpoint, I find Beaver Creek to be more compelling to return to every year (larger resort, easier/faster access from EGE and even from DIA).  However, like I said earlier, as someone who has skiied almost all the premier resorts in North America as well as some of Europe's finest, my fiance and I find Beaver Creek to be our favorite resort.


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## spuppy (Feb 10, 2010)

I've taken many ski and boarding trips to steamboat and beaver creek, and I've stayed at both the sheraton steamboat resort and villas and the westin avon resort and villas.

In terms of skiing, steamboat is actually 60% larger (2965 versus 1815 skiable acres) and has more interesting expert terrain than beaver creek.   On the other hand, beaver creek is fanatical about grooming the trails, which is better for beginner and intermediate skiers/boarders.  And vail is only a short drive away.

In terms of convenience, I would rate the villas at sheraton steamboat considerably higher than westin avon.  The villas are actually nicer, much bigger, and you literally ski out the door to lifts, the gondola or ski school.  At the westin, the gondola drops you off at lower bachelor gulch, and you need to take at least 2 lifts to get to interesting skiing terrain or beaver creek village.  Both the sheraton and the westin have on-site ski valet service. 

In terms of the airport, the distance from eagle to avon is actually slightly farther (22 miles) than the distance from hayden airport to steamboat (21 miles).

Also, beaver creek mountain is usually more crowded because it is so close to denver, especially on weekends.

Beaver creek has better restaurants and night life in the village, but there are no on-mountain, full-service restaurants that are open to the public (there are several clubs that require membership).  The only on-mountain, public options are cafeteria style.  If you want full-service, you have to ski to the base of the village or the base of bachelor gulch.  For comparison, Steamboat has two full-service on-mountain restaurants that take reservations.


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## DVB42 (Feb 15, 2010)

Ken555 said:


> Denise to the rescue...again!



If Denise got a 0.01% commission on the money she has saved people on ts purchases she would be wealthy!


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## DanCali (Feb 15, 2010)

What she saves owners is coming out of Starwood's pocket... I bet they regret the day they crossed her!


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## BrianV (Feb 15, 2010)

Well the rescind packet arrived last Wednesday in Orlando.  On Saturday, I received an email from my sales person at the Westin in Colorado.  I was pleasantly surprised about the tone of the email.

It said that she received the information and is processing it.  She thanked us for coming in and said that she hopes I remain a loyal Starwood customer.  That was it, nothing more.  It was well written and very courteous.  This morning I noticed my Amex had been credited.

I will say I'm highly appreciative of the straight-forward rescind process and felt the way it was handled by Starwood to be world-class.  I didn't get any phone calls, no one tried to change my mind (despite not including any info on why I rescinded in my packet).

Now it's time to do more research and wait for the right opportunity to come by.

Thanks again!


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## mtnpilot (Feb 16, 2010)

Brian,

Another option you might conisder would be to try to trade into the Westin Riverfront using StarOptions.  Of course, trades are likely to be very limited in the first few years, as owners actually use their weeks.  But if you have 81,000 StarOptions, you would at least be eligible to request a one-bedroom unit at the resort - every year.  You can snag 81,000 StarOptions on eBay right now for around $3000 (with Vistana Villages, a mandatory SVN resort).  This might be an option for you to "play around" with the Starwood system and see what kind of success you have with it.  Just a thought.

Congrats on your decision to rescind.  Three cheers for the "educated consumer"!


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## DanCali (Feb 16, 2010)

BrianV said:


> Well the rescind packet arrived last Wednesday in Orlando.  On Saturday, I received an email from my sales person at the Westin in Colorado.  I was pleasantly surprised about the tone of the email.
> 
> It said that she received the information and is processing it.  She thanked us for coming in and said that she hopes I remain a loyal Starwood customer.  That was it, nothing more.  It was well written and very courteous.  This morning I noticed my Amex had been credited.
> 
> ...



Glad to hear things worked out. Now you can make an informed decision at your own pace!


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## BrianV (Feb 16, 2010)

mtnpilot said:


> Brian,
> 
> Another option you might conisder would be to try to trade into the Westin Riverfront using StarOptions.  Of course, trades are likely to be very limited in the first few years, as owners actually use their weeks.  But if you have 81,000 StarOptions, you would at least be eligible to request a one-bedroom unit at the resort - every year.  You can snag 81,000 StarOptions on eBay right now for around $3000 (with Vistana Villages, a mandatory SVN resort).  This might be an option for you to "play around" with the Starwood system and see what kind of success you have with it.  Just a thought.
> 
> Congrats on your decision to rescind.  Three cheers for the "educated consumer"!



It's definitely worthwhile, but I fear I wouldn't be able to get a reliable week in the 90 day window and I'm not sure I'd want to be stuck with Vistana or SPG points (I can get SPG points at mandatory if my memory serves me).

I'll keep it in mind.  I may rent at the Sheraton Mountain Villas next year and see how that works out.


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## DeniseM (Feb 16, 2010)

Brian - the window to trade in with Staroptions opens at 8 mos. out.  Granted - it's not guaranteed by any mean, but it's better than 90 days.  

The 90 day mark is for making a reservation of less than a week, and that mark even applies to owners at the resort.  So even if you bought there, you would have no better chance than anyone else at 90 days out for a partial week.  Partial weeks during ski season are going to be nearly impossible.


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## K2Quick (Feb 16, 2010)

Just another thought - I realize you stated that you and your fiance are quite smitten by Beaver Creek.  If you haven't tried out Park City, you may want to give that a whirl before making a decision.  I've skied Beaver Creek and all of the Park City resorts.  Deer Valley is the most comparable to Beaver Creek - I think both the terrain and service are similar.  Anyway, Marriott has two very nice properties in Park City - one slopeside at PCMR and the other in the middle of the action on Main Street.  Either will cost you about a third of what the Westin at BC would cost and maintenance fees are about half.


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## Twinkstarr (Feb 16, 2010)

K2Quick said:


> Just another thought - I realize you stated that you and your fiance are quite smitten by Beaver Creek.  If you haven't tried out Park City, you may want to give that a whirl before making a decision.  I've skied Beaver Creek and all of the Park City resorts.  Deer Valley is the most comparable to Beaver Creek - I think both the terrain and service are similar.  Anyway, Marriott has two very nice properties in Park City - one slopeside at PCMR and the other in the middle of the action on Main Street.  Either will cost you about a third of what the Westin at BC would cost and maintenance fees are about half.



I'll 2nd Park City, even though I own a ski week in Vail/Beaver Creek. I'd love to pick up a Plat week at Summit Watch, but I would have to find away to get rid of ol' Lakeside Terrace.


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## BrianV (Feb 17, 2010)

K2Quick said:


> Just another thought - I realize you stated that you and your fiance are quite smitten by Beaver Creek.  If you haven't tried out Park City, you may want to give that a whirl before making a decision.  I've skied Beaver Creek and all of the Park City resorts.  Deer Valley is the most comparable to Beaver Creek - I think both the terrain and service are similar.  Anyway, Marriott has two very nice properties in Park City - one slopeside at PCMR and the other in the middle of the action on Main Street.  Either will cost you about a third of what the Westin at BC would cost and maintenance fees are about half.



Thanks we love PC and Deer Valley.  I've also toured the Marriotts there, those were the other time shares.  In 2006, the pricing was considerably higher.  Ski week was some $80k or something.


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## cypress101 (Mar 31, 2010)

*New to all of this and need help!!*

Hey everyone,

I am new to all of this and am exploring timeshares.  I travel quite a bit, am a Plat starwood member, and love Westins. I inquired about a timeshare at the Westin Riverfront and when I do the math, the annual cost (assuming I only have 10 yrs left of vacation with my child) is around 2700-3500 based on the season I pick.  So....my biggest question is "why lock in for 3500 dollars a year to a resort I can just pay when I want to get a hotel room via spg.com?"


I did not see any resells for WRF anywhere and if I were to pickup a resell elsewhere, the Starwood sales guy said the StarOptions would not be available for me to use.

Maybe I just don't understand.....I would love some guidance. 

Thanks!!


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## DeniseM (Mar 31, 2010)

Hi and welcome to TUG!

You aren't missing anything.  The problem is that Starwood doesn't seem to know we are in a recession and between their upfront price and the MF, we are all wondering the same thing. 

Past history tells us that there will be resales on the market in the near future.  Amazingly, many people sell their new timeshare before they ever use it.  Even if you  do find a great resale price, the escalating maintenance fees (Avg. 10%+ a year) are not sustainable.   I bought at their Maui resort, preconstruction and the maintenance fee has increased $1,200 since I bought it in 2003. :annoyed: 

You are correct that resales at this resort do not come with Staroptions or Starpoints.

For lots of info. about how Starwood works, see the FAQ at the top of the page.


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## cypress101 (Mar 31, 2010)

*Thanks for the info...*

Denise:

Thanks for sharing; I appreciate it very much...lots of info to digest and seems a bit overwhelming. 

I guess my main question is:

If there is a hotel attached to most of these places and can rent a similar type room (such as the Westin Riverfront) for almost the same cost, why would one buy a timeshare?

Is it because in 15+ years the cost to rent a similar hotel room will exceed the investment/annual MFs? Or is it just a piece of mind the option is available to you every year?

Trying to wrap my brain around the true benefits of the timeshare option opposed to getting a hotel.  Especially, since everything I have seen tonight shows it is not an investment.  I asked this very question to Starwood sales and the response was "you can pass it to your child."  Not sure passing high MFs to my child when I'm gone is what he wants. :whoopie:


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## DeniseM (Mar 31, 2010)

You can't really compare a timeshare to a hotel room.  A timeshare is usually a full condo with kitchen, etc., and not just one room.

We bought one TS from Starwood and paid $45K - since then we have bought 6 more weeks resale, and paid less than $5K for all of them -total.  We love the room of a timeshare.  BUT, we are very unhappy with the direction the Starwood is taking.

If I had it to do all over again, I would not have bought the first one from the developer.  But so far, the resales are working out for us.  There are lower cost options, especially if you can travel off-season.  Like buying a resale with a low MF ($500-$800) and using it to trade into other Starwood resorts through an exchange company.  For instance, I have use my week at Sheraton Vistana Villages with a MF of $700 to trade into the Westin Princeville, twice, using Interval International.


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## jerseygirl (Mar 31, 2010)

cypress101 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am new to all of this and am exploring timeshares.  I travel quite a bit, am a Plat starwood member, and love Westins. I inquired about a timeshare at the Westin Riverfront and when I do the math, the annual cost (assuming I only have 10 yrs left of vacation with my child) is around 2700-3500 based on the season I pick.  So....my biggest question is "why lock in for 3500 dollars a year to a resort I can just pay when I want to get a hotel room via spg.com?"
> 
> ...



I am a HUGE proponent of resale puchases for those with flexibility, but there are certain resorts/certain weeks where it's almost impossible to get an SVN reservation.  Comparable rental prices though the resort will not save you any money.  See this thread for Westin St John rental prices available via SPG.com for examples:

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=888862&postcount=409

If you always want to have a school holiday/summer vacation week at WSJ (for example), you need to buy a fixed summer week in Phase One or a floating Phase Two summer week.  If you were looking for a spring break week, a platinum float week in Phase Two would be better.  This is generally the rule at HRA as well, and I would imagine the same will be true for "prime platinum ski weeks" (i.e., those with school vacations) at a brand new, shiny ski resort.

Patience and some searching can yield these finds on the resale market, but generally the prices are not significantly cheaper than the Devloper price.  With the developer purchase, you would get some incentive points throw in to lessen the sting of paying full retail, and the ability to convert to SPs (not generally a good value but a "nice to have" if you need it).  If you buy resale at the new Riverfront, you won't have the ability to do external trades unless you buy something else from the developer and retro the Riverfront purchase (not a bad plan, but I think some people jump into it without considering other, less expensive options such as resale purchase of resorts that have killer trading power through II).

Now -- before anyone thinks I'm off my rocker and have become a proponent of developer purchases -- please know that there are only a few resorts where this is true.  You'd have to (a) only want to stay at Riverside since the other Colorado resorts appear to be fairly east to get, and (b) want to go there during prime "school holiday" weeks most years.  Then, and only then, can I see justifying a developer purchase.  But, before I make that blanket statement, you need to check the rental prices at the hotel next door and see if they're outrageous (like WSJ's rental prices), or at a cost similar to the $3500 you quoted.  Personally, I'm willing to pay a premium to have a 2-BR (+) condo for a week vs. a 600-sq foot hotel room -- YMMV.  

Check out the comparable rental prices and make some assumptions:

Rental Option:



Prices will increase X% each year -- but that's all you have to worry about.

Ownership Option:


Maintenance fees will increase X% each year
Amortized depreciation based on some assumption (e.g. resale value after 10 years could be $0 ... or it could be 50% if you buy a "prime prime" week).(And, based on the current economic condiditons, there are some timeshares people CANNOT get out of -- even when trying to give away)
Lost opportunity cost on the initial purchase price (I don't usually count this as disposable income generally gets disposed of elsewhere -- I have a couple of other "hobbies" that get funded!)

Your initial argument works perfectly for Orlando -- if buying to use, you'd be far better off renting (although, if buying to trade, one can still get some pretty good "uptrades).  But, it doesn't necessarily pan out for resorts with high rental rates.

Final note:  It is possible to rent from an owner for a LOT less than the SPG.com rates ... but, it's a bit of a hassle.  Personally, I would't pay an unkown entity $5000 or $7000 and hope the week is going to be available when I arrive.  From someone I "know," via Tug, yes -- probably.  But, it's infiitely easier and hassle-free to rent directly from a resort.  Your risk tolerance for renting from strangers comes into play when considering this option.

Boy -- that's a really long-winded way of saying that I think you answer is completely dependent on rental prices at the hotel next door, and whether or not you'd be satisfied staying in a hotel room vs. having a nicely furnished condo!


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## DeniseM (Mar 31, 2010)

jerseygirl is absolutely right and I should have clarified - trading into a ski season week at this resort will be nearly impossible, and that's what I meant by "travel off-season."  If you want to go during ski season, you need to own, or rent from an owner.


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## cypress101 (Mar 31, 2010)

*Great Responses!*

Okay guys,

Thanks for the info so far...I feel like I have read every page on TUG and other sites in order to do some due diligence.  What has become very apparent to me is the large amount of people who spent a money upfront to get property they can't resell and pay outrageous MFs annually.

Thus, my big million dollar question: Why buy a timeshare?

If it is for the "larger space" I would argue the following:

Based on the Westin Riverfront deal I am being offered, which is substantially lower than the prices quoted by Denise, http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh119/DeniseMM/WRF.jpg, it still doesn't make sense why I would buy. (even if it was only the maint).  Using spg.com, I can get 2 Bedroom Suite with dining room during peak spring break season for 5500 dollars, not to mention the auto upgrade I would get since I'm Plat level SPG member.

Based on what I am seeing on TUG, the MFs go up at LEAST 10% on average which compounded out for Riverfront would be nearly 6500 dollars in year 10.

Again, maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, but based on my calculations of the purchase price + the compounded MF over 10 years, the average annual cost for Riverside is $6200.00.  How is this any better savings vs renting, especially if you are locked in to increasing MFs???

I am very open to all of your experiences and am most appreciative of the input on this site!


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## DeniseM (Mar 31, 2010)

Cypress - you won't get an argument here!  Remember that most of us bought from Starwood 5-8 years ago, and what seemed like a good deal then, is no longer a good deal now.  Like I said, when I bought my 2 bdm. from Starwood on Maui the maintenance fee was $1,100 for a week and it seemed like a great deal.  Now that the MF is $2,300 a week, and Starwood has not increased the  number of Starpoints since I bought it in 2003 - it is no longer a great deal.  To add insult to injury, the unit I spend $45K on, is now going for -$20K on the resale market.  BTW - I bought it BEFORE TUG and before I knew anything about TSing.

The only people around here who are still buying from the developer are those trying to reach 5 Star Elite/SPG Plat.  Some feel it's worth it - others don't.

In your scenario - I would definitely rent and avoid the escalating maintenance fees and dealing with Starwood in general.

However, in some scenarios, buying a cheap resale and exchanging it with II, definitely works, and is far less expensive than renting.


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## vacationtime1 (Mar 31, 2010)

cypress101 said:


> Again, maybe I'm not looking at this the right way, but based on my calculations of the purchase price + the compounded MF over 10 years, the average annual cost for Riverside is $6200.00.  How is this any better savings vs renting, especially if you are locked in to increasing MFs???



Your math is very sound.

If you want to own at/near Vail, you should consider a second-hand Sheraton Mountain Vista or Lakeside Terrace unit.  I stayed at the latter on an exchange earlier this month.  Even platinum (ski) week won't cost you more than a couple thousand dollars and MF's are lower than Riverside.  Your economic cost per week of use will be well under $2,000.

Riverside is a five minute walk from Mountain Vista or Lakeside Terrace,  perhaps ten minutes in ski boots.  Both of these places are Starwood voluntary, neither is as new, as glitzy, has as many amenities, or is as well appointed as Riverside, and the ski access is not as good (Riverside is a gondola ride from the bottom of Beaver Creek; the others require an additional shuttle bus to get there).  But you will get 85% of the benefit for less than a third of the price.


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## clsmit (Apr 1, 2010)

Just a quick clarification to Cypress:



cypress101 said:


> Using spg.com, I can get 2 Bedroom Suite with dining room during peak spring break season for 5500 dollars, not to mention the auto upgrade I would get since I'm Plat level SPG member.



The timeshares don't fully participate in the network (check the fine print on SPG.com), which means you won't get any upgrade when you stay at a timeshare based on being Platinum. 

Your other points are very valid -- if you like a ton of travel flexibility and don't/can't plan a year in advance for your vacations, then timeshares might not be the best for you.


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## spuppy (Apr 2, 2010)

Both the westin riverfront hotel and the adjoining villas have multi-bedroom units.  In fact, the hotel has 2 and 3 bedroom suites that are bigger and nicer than the villas, so the upgrade option is possible.  I was upgraded to a 2 bedroom suite at the hotel with 3 bathrooms, huge kitchen and living room that was about 1700 square feet.


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## ginja (Apr 9, 2010)

*just found this thread have questions about Westin Riverfront*

Does anyone know if it would be possible to get a week in ski season through SVO or am I better off trying to do a trade myself with another owner?  I want to go in Mid Feb. 2011 so it isn't an event week and it wouldn't be Valentine's day either - do I have a chance through SVO? It would be great to set up a direct trade on a somewhat regular basis with someone. We own Ocean Front WKORV-N. Has anyone ever heard of people who swap home resorts on a regular basis - not through sVO?


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## Pedro (Apr 10, 2010)

ginja said:


> Does anyone know if it would be possible to get a week in ski season through SVO or am I better off trying to do a trade myself with another owner? I want to go in Mid Feb. 2011 so it isn't an event week and it wouldn't be Valentine's day either - do I have a chance through SVO? It would be great to set up a direct trade on a somewhat regular basis with someone. We own Ocean Front WKORV-N. Has anyone ever heard of people who swap home resorts on a regular basis - not through sVO?


We were able to get to the Riverfront for ski season using staroptions.  The week we wanted was available when we called.  I don't know if it would be harder to find availability in February than in late March.  Just make sure you call at the right time - 8 months out.


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## DeniseM (Apr 11, 2010)

ginja said:


> Has anyone ever heard of people who swap home resorts on a regular basis - not through sVO?



The TUG Marketplace has an area just for private trades - that would be a good place to post your request.  Just so you know - posting trade requests in the discussion forums is not permitted.


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## BrianV (Apr 23, 2010)

spuppy said:


> Both the westin riverfront hotel and the adjoining villas have multi-bedroom units.  In fact, the hotel has 2 and 3 bedroom suites that are bigger and nicer than the villas, so the upgrade option is possible.  I was upgraded to a 2 bedroom suite at the hotel with 3 bathrooms, huge kitchen and living room that was about 1700 square feet.



I got a free upgrade as SPG Gold to a Jr. Suite which had a kitchen.  I used points, but the rate was ~$329 / night.  You also get daily room service which you don't in the villas.  At $329ish a night for a week, it's far less than the MF, however, it's a bit of an apples/oranges comparison as the Villas can sleep 8 people, but we are just two people so it makes more sense for us.


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## Tfleming675 (Jul 18, 2010)

*New vs resell [merged at this point]*

Reading this site it would appear that one should never purchase a new unit from a developer. I am very interested in a Starwood Colorado property for about 20k (for 97,000 points) CDN and that gives 100k Starpoints as I am also a Platinum Starwood person.

I am also seeing some properties on E bay for a fraction of the price for resale. What am I missing? Is it just foolish to buy new from the developer?


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## DeniseM (Jul 18, 2010)

Hi and welcome to TUG!

You instincts are good - there is no reason to buy from the developer, unless you just have money to burn.

You can buy Starwood (and other timeshares) on the resale market for a fraction of the cost of the developer's price - which includes commission and sales costs.  Even the brand new properties end up on the resale market in a very short time.

I am going to move your post to the Starwood forum and I highly recommend that you do a lot of research before you buy.  I'd start out with the Starwood FAQ at the top of the page and then let us know what you still have questions about.  Buying a TS is kind of like getting married - easy to get into and expensive and difficult to get out of!


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## AwayWeGo (Jul 18, 2010)

*Nothing That The Timeshare Companies Sell At Full Freight Is Worth The Money.*




Tfleming675 said:


> Reading this site it would appear that one should never purchase a new unit from a developer.


Exactly right & 100% totally correct. 

Buy timeshares resale.  Save thousands of dollars on exactly the same thing, or the equivalent, or something even better.

Keep in mind also that there is no such thing as "a new unit from a developer."  By the time you show up & check in, other people will previously have been staying right there in _your_ unit.  As a practical matter, all timeshares are _used-used-used_, just like hotel rooms. 


Tfleming675 said:


> Is it just foolish to buy new from the developer?


Yes, any way you shake it. 

When you buy your timeshare(s) resale, you start out miles ahead.  

All the rest is details.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## DanCali (Jul 18, 2010)

Read this thread from Post #32 onwards...  [merged]


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## Tfleming675 (Jul 18, 2010)

*Thanks*

Thank you for the welcome. I look forward to many more discussions. I have been reading here for a while. 

I really like the option of trading SVOs for Starwood points and I believe this is only available from the developer?

I have seen many resell properties on e-bay but I see this as a risky way to buy. 

This is a great forum thanks!


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## DeniseM (Jul 18, 2010)

Tfleming675 said:


> Thank you for the welcome. I look forward to many more discussions. I have been reading here for a while.
> 
> I really like the option of trading SVOs for Starwood points and I believe this is only available from the developer?



Buying with the intention of converting to Starpoints is actually a poor value. Because Starwood has high maintenance fees, you can actually buy Starpoints from Starwood for less than your maintenance fees. Also, keep in mind that your maintenance fees will go up every year, but Starwood has never increased the number of Starpoints they give to owners who convert to Starpoints.  My maintenance fees have doubled since 2002, but my Starpoints have not changed!  I would not buy a timeshare unless I wanted to use it for timesharing. 



> I have seen many resell properties on e-bay but I see this as a risky way to buy.



It really isn't risky, because unlike other auctions on ebay, you don't send the money directly to the seller.  You use a reputable, licensed closing/escrow company to handle all the funds/paperwork/deeds - similar to buying real estate.  If you use a reputable closing company, it is just as safe as buying anywhere else.  This is negotiated with the seller before you bid.


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## Tfleming675 (Jul 18, 2010)

Robert D said:


> I don't understand how you can justify $45K for this timeshare. I know it's very nice but I'd just rent a unit for a few years until resales become available.  That would have to save you money in the long run, even if you pay top dollar for a rental.  BTW, how much are the maintenance fees?



What if this was for 20k cash and 100,000 SP,s?

[Since you had the same topic going in two threads - I have merged your other thread with this one. - DeniseM]


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## DanCali (Jul 18, 2010)

Tfleming675 said:


> Thank you for the welcome. I look forward to many more discussions. I have been reading here for a while.
> 
> I really like the option of trading SVOs for Starwood points and I believe this is only available from the developer?
> 
> ...



Yes, trading for Starpoints is only available for develper purchases (or requalified resale purchases) but it is rarely a bargain.

For example, for the Westin Riverfront (summer) Platinum season you are considering, you get 95,700 Staroptions and only 41,500 Starpoints. You pay about $2000 in maintenance fees for that. Do for $2K you can convert to 41,500 Starpoints which is 4.8 cents per Starpoints. You can buy those from Starwood itself at 3.5 cents perpoints year round and many times at 2.8 cents since they have 20% promos 1-2 times a year... They do limit you to buying only 20K Starpoints but this should give you an idea about how bad of a deal it is to pay maintenance fees and convert to hotel points, especially if you are not buying the peak season (which would be ski season at this resort  and give 80K Starpoints for the same MFs, making it into a mediocre deal rather than a terrible deal...)

The only places where Starpoint conversion may be a somewhat reasonale deal are highest seasons in places with MFs around $1K (or not much higher) that give a similar amount of hotel points to the property you are looking at. Those are places like Sheraton Mountain Vista or Sheraton Desert Oasis (true Platinum) which are sold out but can be obtained via resale and requalified (an expensive route).


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## DanCali (Jul 18, 2010)

Tfleming675 said:


> I have seen many resell properties on e-bay but I see this as a risky way to buy.



I am not a fan of buying on eBay either, but purchased several timeshares not on eBay at eBay-like prices...


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## AwayWeGo (Jul 18, 2010)

*I Would Have To Be Out Of My Helmet To Pay $20,000 For A Timeshare.*




Tfleming675 said:


> What if this was for 20k cash and 100,000 SP,s?


By me, $20*,*000 is way too much to pay for any timeshare, anywhere. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## okwiater (Jul 18, 2010)

DeniseM said:


> Buying a TS is kind of like getting married - easy to get into and expensive and difficult to get out of!


 
But if you exercise due diligence beforehand and hold out for the "right one", you'll receive a lifetime of wonderful experiences and memories that far exceed your investment.

I like the analogy!


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## DeniseM (Jul 18, 2010)

AwayWeGo said:


> By me, $20*,*000 is way too much to pay for any timeshare, anywhere.
> 
> -- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​



Alan - Starwood timeshares are in the same price range as the top Marriott timeshares.  Starwood timeshares run as much as $100K from the developer, so even on the resale market they can be quite pricey.  Obviously, you can buy some timeshares for less, but someone who wants a prime week at Harborside Atlantis won't be able to pick one up on ebay for $1 - even in this economy.


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## AwayWeGo (Jul 18, 2010)

*To Thine Own Self Be True.*




DeniseM said:


> Alan - Starwood timeshares are in the same price range as the top Marriott timeshares.  Starwood timeshares run as much as $100K from the developer, so even on the resale market they can be quite pricey.  Obviously, you can buy some timeshares for less, but someone who wants a prime week at Harborside Atlantis won't be able to pick one up on ebay for $1 - even in this economy.


I'm sure that's right, & I don't judge anybody who wants to spend that much on a timeshare. 

By me, however, even _$10*,*000_ is more than I would ever be willing to pay for any timeshare anywhere -- StarWood, Marriott, Hyatt, Wyndham presidential suite, shux even Planet HollyWood Towers New Year's Eve Penthouse.  

Key phrase in all this is _By Me_.  Others should go right ahead as they see fit.  No skin off my nose. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


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## DanCali (Jul 18, 2010)

Tfleming675 said:


> What if this was for 20k cash and 100,000 SP,s?
> 
> [Since you had the same topic going in two threads - I have merged your other thread with this one. - DeniseM]



The 100K SPs are a one time incentive and pretty immaterial in the grand scheme of things...

How much are they worth to you? How much did Starwood tell you they are worth? (something like "it pays for the timeshare by itself?")

Keep in mind that you can buy SPs from Starwood for 3.5 cents per point and often for less due to promos. So 100K SPs are worth at most $3500... If you can monetize them for more, you should be buying SPs from Starwood all day for you and your family members, but I assume you're not doing that... If Starwood says they are more, ask them to discount the purchase price by only $3500 and tell them you'll forego the SPs - do you think they'll go for it?


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## Tfleming675 (Jul 18, 2010)

DanCali said:


> The 100K SPs are a one time incentive and pretty immaterial in the grand scheme of things...
> 
> How much are they worth to you? How much did Starwood tell you they are worth? (something like "it pays for the timeshare by itself?")
> 
> Keep in mind that you can buy SPs from Starwood for 3.5 cents per point and often for less due to promos. So 100K SPs are worth at most $3500... If you can monetize them for more, you should be buying SPs from Starwood all day for you and your family members, but I assume you're not doing that... If Starwood says they are more, ask them to discount the purchase price by only $3500 and tell them you'll forego the SPs - do you think they'll go for it?



Great, idea for sure. Just to be clear the SPs are not the main driving force here at all. I love CO, and love Westins. Already a platinum member. Just thinking about some of the perks they have offered.

 I will push them a little harder and see what they come up with. For the most part I think this is not a bad deal based on prices a year ago in the $40K range.


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## Ken555 (Jul 18, 2010)

Tfleming675 said:


> Great, idea for sure. Just to be clear the SPs are not the main driving force here at all. I love CO, and love Westins. Already a platinum member. Just thinking about some of the perks they have offered.
> 
> I will push them a little harder and see what they come up with. For the most part I think this is not a bad deal based on prices a year ago in the $40K range.



Keep in mind you won't get any upgrades at a Starwood timeshare as a Platinum member; you must be a 5* Elite timeshare owner for the real timeshare perks which requires a substantial investment. 

And, was the exact season you are looking at really in the $40k range a year ago and is half that now? I didn't think SVN had discounted prices so much. Regardless, you can get a resale unit for much, much less. I'd suggest objectively reviewing your actual benefits from buying direct compared to the cost savings before purchase. You may find the difference will allow you pay for Westin hotel rooms for many years (and with your Platinum status you'll get all the benefits you like there). Many find TUG thinking they're going to buy direct and then, after consideration, change their mind.


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## Ken555 (Jul 18, 2010)

Tfleming675 said:


> Reading this site it would appear that one should never purchase a new unit from a developer. I am very interested in a Starwood Colorado property for about 20k (for 97,000 points) CDN and that gives 100k Starpoints as I am also a Platinum Starwood person.





> For the most part I think this is not a bad deal based on prices a year  ago in the $40K range.


Is this a Platinum 2-bed during weeks 21-39? It has 95,700 StarOptions. If so, that was only US$25,900 in 2008, not $40k. The Platinum Plus season (1-15, 48-52) was $44,900; those are ski weeks.


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## DanCali (Jul 18, 2010)

Tfleming675 said:


> I will push them a little harder and see what they come up with. For the most part I think this is not a bad deal based on prices a year ago in the $40K range.



The price of the summer season a year ago was around $26K. If they told you $40 it's probably just another sales presentation lie...

here are the retail prices from last fall for Westin Riverfront (all 2BR lockoff):

Season/weeks/Annual/Bienial/SO/SP/MF
Platinum Plus: 1-15, 48-52 $ 44,900 $ 28,900 148,100 80,000 $ 2,093 $ 1,101
*Platinum: 21-39 $ 25,900 $ 16,900 95,700 41,500 $ 2,093 $ 1,101*
Silver: 16-20; 40-47 $ 19,900 $ 12,900 46,500 18,000 $ 2,093 $ 1,101
Christmas $ 54,900 n.a. 148,100 80,000 $ 2,093 $ 1,101
New Years $ 56,900 n.a. 148,100 80,000 $ 2,093 $ 1,101

Paying $20K for $3K worth in hotel points and a timeshare that will cost you $2K a year (not to mention the upfront investment, that depreciates 70%+ the momemt you walk out the door) is not a good deal. And keep in mind that with 95K SOs you can't even trade for a 2BR in Hawaii or Cancun for that matter in high season.

As Ken said, you Platinum SPG status is meaningless here. What your salesperson didn't tell you is that Starwood timeshares have their own Elite program - 3 Star 4 Star and 5 Star owners... You'll be back to the bottom rung of the ladder when it comes to status with your timeshare ownership.


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## TDS (Jul 18, 2010)

While I don't disagree with what has been said here, one thing that maybe should be mentioned is that if the OP wants to own/stay at Westin Riverfront, options are more limited.  Has anyone seen one of these on the resale market?  I don't recall seeing one on Ebay over the past several months and also have not seen a unit on various resale sites.  Its a "newer" resort, plus I believe the number of villa units is much fewer compared to other Starwood resorts.

Additionally, I have never seen a Westin Riverfront unit on II.  If they are trading, they're going to people with requests in place.  I've not seen one available for instant trade, even during low season.

The OP was not looking at Platinum Plus, so maybe ski weeks aren't important, but I don't think trading into this unit during ski weeks with SO's is nearly as easy as other locations (SMV, Lakeside Terrace).  I have a reservation for MLK weekend next January, booked it exactly 8 months out.  I called two weeks later to see if I could get another unit and there wasn't anything available.  

SMV doesn't seem to be too difficult to get into, either via SO's or II and resale is readily available, so that's an option if the goal is to be at a Starwood resort in Vail.  But my experience so far is that Riverfront is more desirable (the gondola on property is a big plus).  This, combined with the fact that the number of units available as villas is low makes this a challenging resort to find resale and access in prime weeks without ownership (I think same can be said for Sheraton Steamboat).  

The points about expensive MFs and buying resale are all well taken, but if someone wants to be at this specific resort consistently, especially if you don't already have a Starwood property that trades via SVN, the options seem to be few.  At least for now...


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## DanCali (Jul 18, 2010)

TDS said:


> While I don't disagree with what has been said here, one thing that maybe should be mentioned is that if the OP wants to own/stay at Westin Riverfront, options are more limited.  Has anyone seen one of these on the resale market?  I don't recall seeing one on Ebay over the past several months and also have not seen a unit on various resale sites.  Its a "newer" resort, plus I believe the number of villa units is much fewer compared to other Starwood resorts.
> 
> The points about expensive MFs and buying resale are all well taken, but if someone wants to be at this specific resort consistently, especially if you don't already have a Starwood property that trades via SVN, the options seem to be few.  At least for now...



This is all true but...

(a) Summer itself is probably easier to book with SOs than ski season

(b) If he is buying summer and wants ski season he still needs to exchange at 8 months out

(c) The same "Staroption trading power" can be obtained by buying a resale 2BR lockoff at SVV Bella or Key West for around $2.5-$3K. He'd get 95,700 SOs annually and pay around $1500 in MFs and should be able to trade into this resort every summer at 8 months out.

(d) For less than $20K he could buy at WKV on the resale market, have 148K SOs annually, and pay less in MFs

But you are right, you need an SVN property to trade in here consistently. You can get those on the resale market...


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## DeniseM (Jul 18, 2010)

Every new property that Starwood has opened up has had deeply discounted resales on the market within a few months.  In this economy, there is no reason to think this resort will be any different.  It's crazy, but people buy from the developer and then either change their minds or have a change of circumstances, and dump them.  We have even seen resales on the market BEFORE the resort opened in some places!  It's only a matter of time.

However, if the OP want to go during the off-season, he should buy a trader with a far lower MF, instead.  No reason to buy there at all, unless you need a ski week.  This should be an easy off-season trade.


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## Tfleming675 (Jul 18, 2010)

DanCali said:


> This is all true but...
> 
> (a) Summer itself is probably easier to book with SOs than ski season
> 
> ...



Very interesting. I am still very skeptical about the resale properties. I can't see how they are so different in price.

What do we lose in a resale deal. My understanding is this.

1 - We lose the Starwood points not a big deal but we do.
2 - We lose the ability to convert SVOs into SPs. This is more attractive.
3 - Some places will not let you use SVOs if you buy resale?
4 - Gold Starwood for life again not a massive deal but still something.

If we buy at another property and we want to go to River Works we will also be trying to trade it correct?

I don't want to pay $20k if I don't have to just trying to get all of the facts.

Thanks for all the help.....


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## DeniseM (Jul 18, 2010)

> Very interesting. I am still very skeptical about the resale properties. I can't see how they are so different in price.



Timeshares are a depreciating luxury purchase.  Look at it this way.  If I go to the Mercedes dealer and buy a car.  Will you buy it from me and pay me the same amount in 6 mos.?  Nope!  Same thing with a timeshare.

Not only that, but most first time developer purchases are impluse buys made at the resort.  People buy without doing their homework, so they don't know how inflated the developer's price is.  (Me!  )

In this economy, many people can't afford to travel, or pay maintenance fees, so when times get hard, their timeshare is often the first thing they try to dump.  They just want to get rid of it so they offer it on ebay for $1 and unload it.  However, even in better times, there has always been a huge difference between retail and resale TS prices.



> 1 - We lose the Starwood points not a big deal but we do.
> 2 - We lose the ability to convert SVOs into SPs. This is more attractive.



Actually, did you know that you can buy Starpoints from Starwood for LESS than the MF of your TS most of the time?  Converting to Starpoints is not a great value, most of the time, and certainly not worth paying thousands of dollars for.  



> 3 - Some places will not let you use SVOs if you buy resale?



You can trade into ALL of the Starwood resorts using Staroptions.  

However, if you buy resale, some resorts, called voluntary resorts, do not come with Staroptions.  This is off-set by the fact that you can acquire voluntary Starwood resorts for cheap or free, and they make great II traders and get first dibs on Starwood to Starwood trades with II - just as if you bought from the developer.



> 4 - Gold Starwood for life again not a massive deal but still something.



Starwood gives out gold memberships like bubble gum, so it is very difficult to get any value out of gold SPG.  Anyone who puts 30K on a Starwood AMEX also gets Gold SPG.  



> If we buy at another property and we want to go to River Works we will also be trying to trade it correct?



Yes, you would buy a resale at a mandatory resort and request a Staroption trade at 8 mos.  

Or buy a resale at a voluntary resort and request a trade through Interval as early as 2 years out.  

For lots of info. about how Starwood works - see the FAQ at the top of the forum.


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## Tfleming675 (Jul 19, 2010)

LisaRex said:


> If you really love the property (which probably won't be avail for resale purchase for awhile) AND have a platinum 2 bdrm which you can requalify and get 148,100 SOs (why not requalify all that you can?) AND they're throwing in 75k SPs....in this limited instance, I'd say that IF you can afford it (and by that I mean that you have at least 12 months of savings in the bank + a healthy 401k, etc) and IF you won't be financing it.....then I'd say go for it.
> 
> How's that for a qualified endorsement?



Thanks for the input. Question, what do you mean by "requalify" ?


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## DanCali (Jul 19, 2010)

Tfleming675 said:


> Very interesting. I am still very skeptical about the resale properties. I can't see how they are so different in price.



A big (if not biggest) reason for the price difference is that all Starwood resorts currently sold are "voluntary" - meaning a resale buyer cannot use Staroptions. They can only reserve at the property and trade through interval. You affectively cannot sell the same product you buy...

Starwood pitches this as a reason to buy from them, but they fail to tell you that, because of the same reason, your purchase will be worth a fraction of its price the moment you buy it. You effectively lose 80%+ of your investment the moment you can't rescind anymore. I suspect very few informed buyers would pay even $5K for a voluntary resort with $2K in MFs (and resale buyers are often reasonably informed). Why would they when they can buy in Orlando for $3K (madatory resort), have Staroptions, pay less in MFs, and trade into WRF summer almost anytime they want?



Tfleming675 said:


> Thanks for the input. Question, what do you mean by "requalify" ?



Requalify means taking a voluntary resort and magically enrolling it into SVN as if you bought from the developer. The idea is you buy a cheap resale and only then go to Starwood and buy one at full retail. When you do that, Starwood will "requalify" your other purchase and you will have both Starpoints and Staroptions on both of your units. It's done as an incentive to get resale buyers to buy developer anyway. Just another thing they don't bother to tell you unless you know about it... If one is thinking about the 5 Star Elite path, that's the most cost effective way to do it, but you still need 2-3 developer purchases to get there so it's a 6 figure investment either way.


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## DeniseM (Jul 19, 2010)

Tfleming675 said:


> Thanks for the input. Question, what do you mean by "requalify" ?



From the FAQ at the top of the forum.  (I recommend that you check the FAQ out - it will answer a lot of your basic questions.)



> 10) What does it mean to requalify/retro a resale?
> 
> In simplest terms:
> a. Someone purchases a Starwood Timeshare, resale, at a voluntary or mandatory resort.
> ...


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