# Open Letter to Marriott



## GregT (Jun 21, 2010)

Dear Marriott,

I am a Gold Level Marriott Rewards Owner (63 nights in 2010 as of May 31) and will be Platinum Level (75 nights) by June 30.  I own two prime weeks in the Marriott Vacation Club (Week 24/25 3BR units at MOC) and have spent a small fortune for these units.      I love the Marriott properties and love the units that I own.

Until the new program announced on June 20, 2010, I would have happily purchased more Marriott timeshares, including directly from Marriott.   Frankly, based upon my income level and my enthusiasm for timeshares, *I should be Marriott’s target customer*.  With any luck, I might even one day be a Ritz Carlton customer.   However, all that hard-earned brand loyalty has been destroyed.  I am *stunned *at the new points program that has been introduced, and the callous treatment of your existing owners.    

I do not understand, and am *infuriated *by, the “Bid/Ask” spread between what you are offering in points for someone to use the system versus what you are offering someone else (or the same person) to pay in points for that unit.   

Are the annual fees and up-front costs not sufficient a financial return from the existing ownership base such that skimming is required?  *If not, why not? *  Why not give the full number of points so that more users will participate in the program and avoid the need to skim?  The current structure suggests that by skimming the number of points, all Marriott cares about is selling an additional X,000 points because otherwise an enrolled week points deposit isn’t very useful.   Isn’t the skimming just so that you can sell an additional 1,000 points to most people who are now short of points because they didn’t get full value?   Really?  Is that worth your good name?

Your new points program does not directly affect me, but I am shocked on behalf of other good Marriott owners who are caught in the chaos of the new system.   Personally, I own two fixed weeks that should have been of interest to a Marriott system but I will not enroll them in the new system and I will take that $695 up-front and $199 annual fee and explore other systems like Hilton Grand Vacations Club for any additional timeshare needs.  

48 hours ago, I was a happy Marriott user, *loyal to the brand*, and would have happily joined for $695 and paid $199 annually for a program that I would probably never employ (I like going to MOC).    96 hours ago, I almost purchased a Ko Olina EOY, but didn’t because I didn’t understand the 13 month reservation rule at Ko Olina (and if it was in the deed). 

But instead, I am an eyes-opened user (with a voice, a company that employs lots of people who travel, and a keyboard) that is stunned by the money-grubbing, skimming approach of Marriott, and its callous disregard for its existing, loyal customers.

*If you are a potential purchaser of Marriott points*, do your research.   Marriott has just broken the covenant with its existing ownership and significantly impaired the value of what people own -- what’s to stop them from doing it to you?  

Learn about the high-quality timeshare organizations like Hilton (and formerly, Marriott).  Learn about Wyndham.   Read a lot about Wyndham and how they keep changing the rules to reduce the value that their owners have.  _Marriott has just done it, what’s to stop them from doing it again_?

Marriott, your once-proud brand is now closer to Wyndham than Hilton.   

Greg Tibbitts




TUGgers, if you have your own letter to Marriott, please post it  -- otherwise please keep this thread clean except for Letters to Marriott – their focus group really let them down with the Bid/Ask.  Thank you.


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## GregT (Jun 21, 2010)

*Breakage*

Dear Marriott,

I understand from the sales team that the reason for the significant discount (what I consider skimming) is due to the risk of "Breakage", ie empty nights that prevent a unit from being fully occupied.  

I note that other points-based systems have solved this question with Bonus Time/Open Season.

Is there really a vacancy rate at the prime properties?  Are prime properties really going to be vacant 7-22% of the time?

And who's risk is it at a sold-out property, where the MFs are paid by existing owners, and who are now being given discounted values for enrolling their units?

I continue to be dismayed at the delta in the Bid/Ask, or skim, or Breakage, whatever you want to call it, and Marriott must have understood this would be a problem for some of us and must have a good explanation.

Absent a better explanation, I'm not sure how it is not skimming.


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## BocaBoy (Jun 23, 2010)

*Please Understand the Program Before Yopu Complain*

Greg T's post shows again that TUG members are reacting negatively without understanding the new program as it relates to existing owners  IT IS AN ADDITIONAL EXCHANGE PROGRAM for us.  They are taking nothing away from us.  I have similar characteristics to Greg T--Marriott Gold, future Platinum, and I also own two weeks at Lahaina Tower in Maui, plus three other weeks with Marriott.

The new program is great for Hawaii owners if they want to trade their unit.  (If they don't, nothing changes.)  Why?  Because under the current system a Maui owner, for example, could never get fair value in a trade.  They could only get a week and there was no guarantee of view.  If I wanted to trade Maui for Ko Olina, I might get mountain view.  This has been corrected.

I have been very critical of the recent Marriott Rewards changes and have complained about a lot of things that have changed with MVCI, but this is a real positive change.  I plan to join, but probably not use it a lot.  I like to stay where we bought.  Even in this case, however, I will save a ton in fees (Interval, lockoff, trade for points, changes, etc.) every year.

This new program might not help all current owners, but it cannot hurt, the way I see it.


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## zcrider (Jun 23, 2010)

*Terrible points system*

If I pay to join this new program and then pay a Marriott exchange fee I have the right to give Marriott 100 points of my week to get back 85 points in change to spend to get a new week with.    Thanks Marriott I am really proud to be an owner with you now!  Every exchange in this new poins program is an automatic "exchange down" in either valuable week, valuable view, or length of stay or size of villa since you only give us change to book back into another Marriott with!!!!   
  On top of that you gave yourselves the right to steal good II deposits and replace them with dog weeks if you want.  How is any of this different then someone stealing from their own kids piggy bank?    Yes, you will make more $$ in the short term with this b/c most people will take a while to ask the right questions or catch on to the problem and will just trust blindly that Marriott has been a good company to deal with in the past.  (Go buy your Marriott stock now b/c people will be fooled into dumping money into Marriott now while they are getting a "deal" to join for reduced fees in the initial start up months. :hysterical:  but be ready to dump that stock in about a year when these same people start realizing the "value" they just bought into).  
  My husband travels a lot for work too and really racks up the hotel stays.  But we are not happy Marriott fans anymore and will vote with our feet.  I am thinking Hilton is looking a lot better now.


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## Asia2000 (Jun 23, 2010)

I think all three of you make very valid points.  Some see benefits in this program and others do not.  Overall, the value of the asset (if that is what you can call it) is diminished with the point program based on the amount of points provided for one week (in most cases).  However, some see a real benefit for staying less than a week or taking one of these overpriced cruises for a change of pace.

In the end, Marriott needed new bells and whistles to sell.  In the last couple of years, Marriott has been punished financially by overextending credit and the lack of inventory to sell at some of their best resorts.  Compare it to Wal-Mart having phenomenal sales year after year due to the building of new stores every year.  At some point, they run out of places to build and the sales slow.

Marriott wanted a program with enough candy and options to entice.  But an on purpose lack of detail to make people "just give up and buy" as well as encourage everyone to call Marriott where they could obtain details (although varying) and also receive "the pitch".

The new system gives Marriott a new platform for the future (unfortunately at the owners expense, unless you choose not to join).  I suppose the option to join is a perk versus making everyone convert.  I plan to use my week the same way as in the past.  I do not need prime weeks and am always guaranteed a week in my season, so I'm not concerned.  Most of my trades will be non-Marriott and will be here in Asia where the resorts are rarely full.

Once again, this thread may be the best one yet, outside of the new Marriott trust only containing only 11 resorts.  Yes, converts to the new program will feed the points program inventory and take away from the traditional inventory.  But, points will not give you as much time to stay and upgrades will not be available, making the "traditional weeks" pot sweeter.  That is my hope anyway.  The more that convert, the better my inventory becomes, at least in the next 10 years.


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## DanCali (Jun 23, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> This new program might not help all current owners, but it cannot hurt, the way I see it.



Are you for real? Cannot hurt? Have you seen this?



> Owner will not exercise any vote Owner may have in the owners" association ("Resort Association") operating the resort in which Owner's Timeshare Interest is located ("Resort") in a manner that is, in MVCEC's reasonable discretion, detrimental to the Program, including, without limitation, voting to limit or terminate the Resort's participation in the Program.



*This paragraph alone should tell you the that many things about the program are rotten *from the core... Otherwise, why would Marriott make you give up your most basic right as an onwer: the right to vote your opinion?

Sure, you can find positives inthe program. But there will be many negatives, most of which will be discovered long after you join. As for Hawaii owners now being able to get "like for like" try comparing what Hawaii owners get and what they need to exchange into other Hawaii properties. With the skim factor, it is never like for like...


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## windje2000 (Jun 23, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Are you for real? Cannot hurt? Have you seen this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*I couldn't agree more.* 

They are throwing a shiny penny on the ground in the hopes that you will ignore the steamroller that will flatten you when you're not looking!


No members = no points inventory.  

If you use II, go request first.

Maybe its time to set up an alternative exchange system.


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## Dave M (Jun 23, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Maybe its time to set up an alternative exchange system.


There is one -devoted to Marriott timeshares - that has operated successfully for several years. www.OwnerTrades.com currently has 1,316 Marriott owners offering 1,891 exchanges.


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## BocaBoy (Jun 23, 2010)

*Hawaii exchanges are not like for like now*

I have ocean front in Lahaina Tower.  If I trade to other hawaii properties through Interval, I will usually get mountain view.  That is a HUGE discount in value.


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## RedDogSD (Jun 23, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> I have ocean front in Lahaina Tower.  If I trade to other hawaii properties through Interval, I will usually get mountain view.  That is a HUGE discount in value.



Yes, the Lahaina and Napili Towers Hawaii owners are the one group that is going to get something pretty decent.  They are giving you enough points to get several weeks in the less popular locations and you can always reserve your home week at your home resort.  

However, even the other Hawaii locations are not happy as the points given to Ko'Olina, Kauai and Big Island don't get enough points to come to Maui.  They are giving a huge premium to Maui.


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## brigechols (Jun 23, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> I have ocean front in Lahaina Tower.  If I trade to other hawaii properties through Interval, I will usually get mountain view.  That is a HUGE discount in value.



You could always skip Interval and perform a direct exchange with an owner at other Hawaii properties. This removes any question or doubt about the view.




BocaBoy said:


> The new program is great for Hawaii owners if they want to trade their unit.



I own a 2BR Ko Olina unit and this new program is not great for me.


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## MikeZ (Jun 23, 2010)

brigechols said:


> You could always skip Interval and perform a direct exchange with an owner at other Hawaii properties. This removes any question or doubt about the view.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I own a 2BR Waiohai unit and this new program is not great for me, either!


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## potchak (Jun 23, 2010)

My DH's letter to Marriott:

Dear Customer Advocacy:

Like everyone, I have had poor service or bad product experiences before but I have never written a company about my poor experience until now. I must say that I'm very concerned about the way my experience with Marriott Vacation club has been going. My wife and I purchased an every other year Waiohai and opposite year Timber Lodge from Marriott in 2006. We also purchased a Manor Club from Marriott in 2007 and a second Manor Club resale in 2007. We purchased from Marriott because we were talked into the value of the Marriott awards program as the major value over purchasing for much less in the resale market. Additionally, we were told about Marriott's use of right of first refusal and how it would keep the value of our vacation investment high.

We went ahead and invested about $64,000 in Marriott Vacation club including one resale property for about $9K and the rest direct purchases from Marriott. In the very short 3 years our experience has really been poor in terms of value. We love our properties and have stayed in other Marriott's in NJ and Aruba and have always found them to be fantastic. The concern is the investment we made with Marriott vs others that purchased resale. When we purchased, resale was running at about 30% to 40% less. Since then, it looks like this gap has increased to more than 50% and it appears that many resales are simply passing ROFR at very low prices. We still had the benefit that our units also qualify for the Marriott rewards program and we have used that a few times taking advantage of the points to go on a cruise, etc.

Now we have the new points system introduced. For only $1,995 anyone that purchase resale can now trade their unit into the Marriott rewards program. This one benefit we had for paying 30%+ premium over purchasing resale (50%+ if you just purchased resale). So our additional purchase cost of about $16,500 ($64,000 - $9,000 (resale property)=$55,000 *30% = $16,500) we could have received the same benefit by signing up for the point system for only $1,995.

I'm very disappointed in Marriott for pushing this advantage in sales for years just to allow everyone else have that advantage we paid a lot of money for, for so little. I would have thought that a company like Marriott would have done more to protect the loyalty of their customers. In three short years I have seen time and again the let down by Marriott to keep our loyalty.
1. Reduced Marriott Rewards Points program for airfare and hotels
2. Seems to have suspended to diminished ROFR causing the delta between our purchase price and resale to increase
3. Started a points system that does not provide equal point value between unit traded in verses unit reserved by points
4. Little barrier of entry for non-Marriott direct purchasers to get into Marriott Rewards program for their units

The properties are fantastic but the program has continued to diminish in value at an alarming rate. I would ask that you please do a better job at making our Marriott Vacation Club experience a success not just at the resort but also in the way the program is administered. Simple ideas would be to give owners that bought directly from Marriott a 30% increase in point allotments each year to match the additional initial purchase they paid, or to grant one time bonuses of points and give them a higher priority for reserving units. Some value more than pay us $1,995 and now everyone is equal in the eyes of Marriott.

I look forward to hearing your ideas on value and how our loyalty to Marriott has been rewarded. Perhaps I'm missing something and we are not taking full advantage of what we purchased. Thank you.

Sincerely,
XXXXXXX


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## kmij (Jun 23, 2010)

we own two weeks at ko'olina in a penthouse unit.  i think we will have to find an owner to trade with ourselves.  we did trade into MOC for next feb.  i  am sure glad that we did, as who knows if we will ever be able to again.
we traded through II one year for waiohai (SP?).  it was a beautiful resort but we gave up our PH unit for a place overlooking the parking lot!!  it was a gamble we took.  aside from that, it was a great week.
i am not going to be changing over to the new points program.  we will try to exchange with owners or vacation where we bought.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2010)

potchak said:


> My DH's letter to Marriott: ...



Wow, Shorty!  Your husband has done a fabulous job!  Thank you so much for posting this.

For one thing, it's so infrequent that we see on TUG the point of view of the direct purchaser being championed.  For another, more personal, what your husband put into words has been floating around in my brain for a few days, but it wasn't coherent or developed.  NOW I understand what I've been thinking!   

Is it okay for me to adopt the thoughts when I'm speaking with my sales rep to start the enrollment process?  I wouldn't quote him word-for-word or ever put his words into writing without his permission, anyway, but I'd like him to know that I'll be repeating his sentiment that it is still possible for them to distinguish their direct purchasers through bonus incentives.

Nice job, I am impressed.


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## brigechols (Jun 23, 2010)

potchak said:


> For only $1,995 anyone that purchase resale can now trade their unit into the Marriott rewards program.



Can you tell me where  Marriott states that resale buyers can now turn in a week  for Marriott rewards points?


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2010)

brigechols said:


> Can you tell me where  Marriott states that resale buyers can now turn in a week  for Marriott rewards points?



from the FAQ (bolding mine):


> I originally purchased my Marriott Vacation Club week(s) as an external sale through the secondary market. Would the benefits of enrolling be different for me?
> If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program. The enrollment fee for one externally purchased week will initially be $1,495, and enrolling multiple externally purchased weeks will initially total $1,995. This offer is expected to be available only through December 31, 2010. Once you enroll your week(s), you will gain the annual option to elect Vacation Club Points, and *you may also add the option of trading your week(s) for Marriott Rewards points if the week(s) you purchased externally are eligible for Marriott Rewards trade*. You also will gain the benefit and convenience of the annual single-use fee (Club Dues).



Others have found the language which clarifies that the only limitation is whether or not the resort offered the MRP-exchange option to developer purchasers.  Some resorts never did offer it, in which case it isn't possible to give any Weeks owners at that resort the option if they enroll.


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## brigechols (Jun 23, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> from the FAQ (bolding mine):
> 
> 
> Others have found the language which clarifies that the only limitation is whether or not the resort offered the MRP-exchange option to developer purchasers.  Some resorts never did offer it, in which case it isn't possible to give any Weeks owners at that resort the option if they enroll.



Do you know whether there is an additional fee associated with adding the MRP-exchange option?


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## SueDonJ (Jun 23, 2010)

brigechols said:


> Do you know whether there is an additional fee associated with adding the MRP-exchange option?



Don't think so, haven't seen any mention of one.


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## brigechols (Jun 23, 2010)

Just got off the phone with Marriott. There is no additional fee associated with adding the MRP-exchange option.  My 3BR Grande Vista would be eligible for 125,000 Marriott reward points EOY and my 2 BR Ko Olina would be eligible for 85,000 Marriott reward points EOY. According to the Owner Services representative, these are the exact number of reward points and terms given to direct purchasers from Marriott.

In fact, the rep played down the use of MRP and pointed out that since I generally travel with six people, trading for MRP will not result in enough points to book two hotel rooms for one week.


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## aka Julie (Jun 23, 2010)

Does anyone know how many MRPs a Platinum week at ShadowRidge is worth and is it available EY or EOY?  We bought ours resale and since it wasn't an option at the time, I didn't check it out.  I'm leaning toward not enrolling in the new program, but the turning in for MRPs might tip the scale a "little bit."


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## Latravel (Jun 23, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Are you for real? Cannot hurt? Have you seen this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Come on!  How many times did you vote and how many times did it really change anything?  Marriott was and always will be in charge.  We need them more than they need us and that's just being realistic about the situation.


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## aka Julie (Jun 23, 2010)

Latravel said:


> Come on!  How many times did you vote and how many times did it really change anything?  Marriott was and always will be in charge.  We need them more than they need us and that's just being realistic about the situation.



That's true, but the fact that they have the arrogance to say we have to give up our rights to join leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  It's true that the majority do not excercise their rights, that's a shame.


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## Latravel (Jun 23, 2010)

potchak said:


> My DH's letter to Marriott:
> 
> Dear Customer Advocacy:
> 
> ...




Excellent letter.


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## natiro (Jun 23, 2010)

*Re: letter to Marriott*

I have been composing a letter to Marriott regarding my concerns about the new system.  I am very disappointed that external purchasers will now be able to trade their unit for rewards points just by enrolling in the new points program and paying a maximum of $1,995.  Whether or not you believe the rewards points are a good value or not, it was one of the biggest selling points that Marriott sales focused on to convince potential purchasers that buying directly from Marriott was far more beneficial than purchasing externally.  

Is there a place where I can find contact information (names and addresses) that I can use to route my letter appropriately?  I'm fine posting an open letter once I've finished it, but I would also like to target specific people at corporate.  Thanks.


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## potchak (Jun 23, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Wow, Shorty!  Your husband has done a fabulous job!  Thank you so much for posting this.
> 
> For one thing, it's so infrequent that we see on TUG the point of view of the direct purchaser being championed.  For another, more personal, what your husband put into words has been floating around in my brain for a few days, but it wasn't coherent or developed.  NOW I understand what I've been thinking!
> 
> ...



Absolutely Susan. I am glad you liked the letter. He is in marketing so words are his thing! I am always amazed at how much better at it he is than I!!!


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## potchak (Jun 23, 2010)

natiro said:


> I have been composing a letter to Marriott regarding my concerns about the new system.  I am very disappointed that external purchasers will now be able to trade their unit for rewards points just by enrolling in the new points program and paying a maximum of $1,995.  Whether or not you believe the rewards points are a good value or not, it was one of the biggest selling points that Marriott sales focused on to convince potential purchasers that buying directly from Marriott was far more beneficial than purchasing externally.
> 
> Is there a place where I can find contact information (names and addresses) that I can use to route my letter appropriately?  I'm fine posting an open letter once I've finished it, but I would also like to target specific people at corporate.  Thanks.



I believe my husband found it on the website under Customer Advocacy. I think it was customer dot advocacy at vacationclub dot com

Not sure if this is the right place or not.


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## GregT (Jun 23, 2010)

All,

I've forwarded the link to this message to the senior management team of the Exchange Company, and to Lee Cunningham, who sent the email inviting some people (I've not gotten mine) to learn about the points program.  However, my email is likely sitting in Spam filters.

I'd still like to see this thread as much as possible reflect owner letters directly to Marriott -- I can't find a direct way to get anyone to answer the skimming question, other than Breakage, which I consider an excuse.  Thank you all for your comments and perspective.

All the best,

Greg

Sent to:

lee.cunningham@vacationclub.com
stephen.weisz@vacationclub.com; 
joseph.bramuchi@vacationclub.com; 
michael.cullen@vacationclub.com; 
joel.eisemann@vacationclub.com


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## m61376 (Jun 23, 2010)

Thanks for the list of addresses!

Cullen and Eisemann's already got bounced back - are you sure the e-mails were posted correctly?


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## tropical1 (Jun 23, 2010)

potchak said:


> My DH's letter to Marriott:
> 
> Dear Customer Advocacy:
> 
> ...



Great letter! You articulated these points so well!


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## DanCali (Jun 23, 2010)

Latravel said:


> Come on!  How many times did you vote and how many times did it really change anything?  Marriott was and always will be in charge.  We need them more than they need us and that's just being realistic about the situation.



Oh ok... then I am sure they won't mind removing that paragraph from your enrollment documents...

It's obviously important enough to THEM.

Their lawyers could have said "We control things anyway. No need to include this in the enrollment documents..." - but guess what... it's important enough to Marriot to include this after all.


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## MikeZ (Jun 23, 2010)

DanCali said:


> Oh ok... then I am sure they won't mind removing that paragraph from your enrollment documents...
> 
> It's obviously important enough to THEM.



That's what concerns me, Dan.  Why would it be so important to take away someone's voting rights?  I don't like that at all!


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## nygiants11991 (Jun 23, 2010)

I have not received anything from anyone about the new system.  I assumed Marriott would have sent something to every owner, but you know what they say about assuming.....
Thank you to TUGGERS for all the information


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## GregT (Jun 24, 2010)

m61376 said:


> Thanks for the list of addresses!
> 
> Cullen and Eisemann's already got bounced back - are you sure the e-mails were posted correctly?



Sorry, I was guessing on the emails based upon their name and the email format for Vacation Club  

(ie firstname.lastname@vacationclub.com)

I've not gotten bounce backs so hopefully something is going through.

Thanks again,

Greg


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## PerryM (Jun 24, 2010)

*Despite the high-tech lynching I'm enrolling our Gold Summit Watch!*

As someone who's been a target of a TUG high-tech lynching I feel for Marriott - level headed folks get caught up in the hysteria.

I feel partially responsible since I spent 2 months cooking up every backstabbing, underhanded, and despicable tactic Marriott could foist upon us with their new system.

I am happy to report that Marriott ignored my comments and gave us a VERY owner friendly Point exchange system.  If you bought resale, like I did, your only decision should be "do I enroll before lunch or after lunch?".  I'm serious.

I just spent 40 hours putting together a 40 slide PowerPoint presentation which I am presenting tonight, Thursday June 24, 2010 at 8 PM CDT, at my Webinar.  I've spent 10+ hours on the phone with the Marriott folks, getting wrong answers, bad answers, and many "let me know when you find out" answers.

I still have spots open and the Webinar is FREE and I won't be selling you anything nor hawking your eMail address.

If you want a 1 hour, top to bottom, analysis of the new Marriott Point system just send an eMail to *PerryM@Yahoo.com* with the subject *Marriott Webinar* and I'll enroll you and the Webinar will contact you and tell you how Webinars work.

So this is my way of setting the record straight - sadly some here would rather spend time with a lynch mob - I've now atoned for my sins and its up to you.  I'm spending the rest of the day practicing so I won't be responding to this thread for a while.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 24, 2010)

PerryM said:


> As someone who's been a target of a TUG high-tech lynching I feel for Marriott - level headed folks get caught up in the hysteria.
> 
> I feel partially responsible since I spent 2 months cooking up every backstabbing, underhanded, and despicable tactic Marriott could foist upon us with their new system.
> 
> ...



Okay... Who is the wise guy that hijacked Perry's TugBBS account???


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## GregT (Jun 24, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Okay... Who is the wise guy that hijacked Perry's TugBBS account???



That is DAMN funny.  I'm here waiting for the Webinar to start..........

Best to all,

Greg


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## Pit (Jun 24, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> Okay... Who is the wise guy that hijacked Perry's TugBBS account???



Follow the money. :ignore:


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## hipslo (Jun 24, 2010)

this webinar thing is just too much......


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## billymach4 (Jun 24, 2010)

*Just saw this.*

I hope I made it in time. Just sent the email.


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## Y-ASK (Jun 24, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> For one thing, it's so infrequent that we see on TUG the point of view of the direct purchaser being championed.  For another, more personal, what your husband put into words has been floating around in my brain for a few days, but it wasn't coherent or developed.  NOW I understand what I've been thinking!


Ya know what I've been thinking?  I've been thinking that who do all you development purchasers think is footing a very heafty part of the bill by paying their maintenance fees on time?  Sure let's get rid of all those resale owners and their money.  What scum bags those guys are 

The bottom line is that your maintenance fees are kept low because the resale owner purchased and pays their fair share of the fees and if they didn't either your bill is going to be really high or your resorts are going to look like doggie poop...

But that's ok let's keep trying to get Marriott to stick it to the resale owners.  Real smart...

Y-ASK


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## SueDonJ (Jun 24, 2010)

Y-ASK said:


> Ya know what I've been thinking?  I've been thinking that who do all you development purchasers think is footing a very heafty part of the bill by paying their maintenance fees on time?  Sure let's get rid of all those resale owners and their money.  What scum bags those guys are
> 
> The bottom line is that your maintenance fees are kept low because the resale owner purchased and pays their fair share of the fees and if they didn't either your bill is going to be really high or your resorts are going to look like doggie poop...
> 
> ...



I think you misunderstand.  I don't have a problem with resale owners.  Timeshares have inherent devaluation in them (and now it looks like Marriott's added to that devaluation for all of us) and it makes sense to me that folks search out bargains whenever they're buying something.  And you're right, every owner who pays the m/f helps every other owner who's doing the same thing.  Nope, no problem with you at all.

My problem is with Marriott that they've removed the one enticement that was used by them for years to encourage direct purchasers.  And as far as TUG, you can't deny that proponents of Marriott-direct purchases are few and far between here.  I like to see it on the rare occasion, not as an insult to anyone else, but as a camaraderie thing.  I apologize if you were insulted by my comments - honestly, no insult at all was intended.


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## Y-ASK (Jun 24, 2010)

Yeah but that's like saying that everyone who buys a new home in a new neighborhood gets access to the community pool built by the developer but if some owner got in over his head and the real estate market tanks and he has to short sell or has the property foreclosed on and the developer makes it so that the next owner has no rights to the pool but still has to pay the same HOA fees like everyone else, how fair is that?  And don't you think the value of your property is going to reflect that?  Of course no community would ever treat a new resale owner like that.  They would welcome the new owner with open arms and hope their property values don't drop any further.  No open arms from some developer purchased timeshare owners.  If they really like the resort they frequent they should be thankful that many resale owners like it too and are happy to pay their maintenance fees.

They should have never removed the enticement to begin with...  If I need to sell my property I would want the new owner to have all the same rights as I would so my value would be maintained, even if the value is lower than what I paid for it.  By the way, DVC treats both internal and external owners exactly the same, why can't Marriott?  Could it be because of short sighted letters like this...

Y-ASK

Must be getting tired tonight because after re-reading this I guess I'm getting grumpy.  I guess it's just the way I took the words...


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## SueDonJ (Jun 24, 2010)

Y-ASK said:


> Yeah but that's like saying that everyone who buys a new home in a new neighborhood gets access to the community pool built by the developer but if some owner got in over his head and the real estate market tanks and he has to short sell or has the property foreclosed on and the developer makes it so that the new owner has no rights to pool but still has to pay the same HOA fees like everyone else, how fair is that?  And don't you think the value of property is going to reflect that?  Of course no community would ever treat a new owner like that.  They would welcome the new owner and hope their property values don't drop any further.  Not with some of these timeshare owners.  If they really like the resort they frequent they should be thankful that many resales like it too and are happy to pay their maintenance fees.
> 
> They should have never removed the enticement to begin with...
> 
> Y-ASK



Well, I hope you believe me that I don't care if the person lounging next to me at the pool bought resale or direct - hopefully we're all there happy to enjoy life and willing to pay our m/f fees to keep making it happen.

I don't mind that there were MRP-exchange options to distinguish direct from resales.  What everybody said here about the price differential made sense, that in some cases developer-direct buyers were paying way more than necessary for the option.  But it was a known, tangible, clearly-stated difference that Marriott relied upon for enticement.

Now they've removed it and I'm certain there's something in the docs for the new system that forced them to remove it.  It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things and it certainly hasn't had an impact on my choice to enroll, it's just one little thing that bothers me.  If Marriott can't find a way to make some other differential without hurting any owners then I'm still satisfied, but if they can then I'll welcome it.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 24, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Now they've removed it and I'm certain there's something in the docs for the new system that forced them to remove it.  It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things and it certainly hasn't had an impact on my choice to enroll, it's just one little thing that bothers me.  If Marriott can't find a way to make some other differential without hurting any owners then I'm still satisfied, but if they can then I'll welcome it.



I think Marriott removed it because it gives them access to that inventory. It is just another option that an owner can use to turn inventory to Marriott's control. Marriott needs as much inventory to feed the new points system. They probably figured that the trade for points option was something it was willing to give up to external owners.


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## Y-ASK (Jun 24, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> If Marriott can't find a way to make some other differential without hurting any owners then I'm still satisfied, but if they can then I'll welcome it.



Even at the cost of your developer purchased resale property value?  Do you really want to deny access to the community pool for a potential buyer of your property?  If the product is really that great then resales will be far and few between...


Y-ASK


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## SueDonJ (Jun 24, 2010)

Y-ASK said:


> Even at the cost of your developer purchased resale property value?  Do you really want to deny access to the community pool for a potential buyer of your property?  If the product is really that great then resales will be far and few between...
> 
> 
> Y-ASK



This new system has already devalued my developer-direct purchase because no further resales of deeded weeks are eligible to be enrolled in Points, and the Enrolled Points status will not transfer upon resale.  I think that's a pretty substantial devaluation and can't imagine how some small token will devalue it further.  I'm not talking about a usage option that will give direct buyers a priority or advantage over resale within the Enrolled Points system.  Maybe something like the excess inventory being offered to direct buyers a week before resale?  You know, like that Gift of Time inventory.  Something like that ...


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## SueDonJ (Jun 24, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> I think Marriott removed it because it gives them access to that inventory. It is just another option that an owner can use to turn inventory to Marriott's control. Marriott needs as much inventory to feed the new points system. They probably figured that the trade for points option was something it was willing to give up to external owners.



Makes sense to me.


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## Y-ASK (Jun 24, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> This new system has already devalued my developer-direct purchase because no further resales of deeded weeks are eligible to be enrolled in Points, and the Enrolled Points status will not transfer upon resale.


Yep!  I totally agree with you on that and it was probably letters like the "well written" one that probably caused it to happen.  But the way I read the documents is if the resort is "enrolled" then the buyer has the right to pay a $2,000 initation fee plus another $200 per interest fee to keep those properties within the points system.  It's the weeks that never get enrolled that are going to have a problem.  Unfortunately it's the seller that might have to take their share of the initation fee via lower resale value.

Y-ASK


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## potchak (Jun 24, 2010)

Y-ask, 
We never mention MF's in the letter at all, again, like SueDon we have no issue whatsoever with resale owners in fact we have a resale week as well as our 2 developer weeks. The issue that we have is that we were sold a bill of sale that is no longer available. The only reason that we purchased developer instead of resale was for the option of MRP's and now that option is available to every resale that enrolls. The premium that we paid for developer weeks for this is no longer the value we paid for it. That was the point we tried to make, not trying to bash resale owners. Since this is case you have definitely taken the purpose of this letter out of context.


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## Y-ASK (Jun 24, 2010)

potchak said:


> Y-ask,
> We never mention MF's in the letter at all, again, like SueDon we have no issue whatsoever with resale owners in fact we have a resale week as well as our 2 developer weeks. The issue that we have is that we were sold a bill of sale that is no longer available. The only reason that we purchased developer instead of resale was for the option of MRP's. Since this is case you have definitely taken the purpose of this letter out of context.



It's late and I'm probably too grumpy to respond so tomorrow is always another day ...

Y-ASK


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## Pit (Jun 24, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> ... it's just one little thing that bothers me.



Why does that bother you?


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## taffy19 (Jun 24, 2010)

PerryM said:


> As someone who's been a target of a TUG high-tech lynching I feel for Marriott - level headed folks get caught up in the hysteria.
> 
> I feel partially responsible since I spent 2 months cooking up every backstabbing, underhanded, and despicable tactic Marriott could foist upon us with their new system.
> 
> ...


You did a good job as I listened to your session.  It was very clear and easy to understand but with a lot of material covered.  I will listen again next week.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 24, 2010)

Pit said:


> Why does that bother you?



For the reason I said:  "it was a known, tangible, clearly-stated difference that Marriott relied upon for enticement.  Now they've removed it ..."


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## Pit (Jun 24, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> For the reason I said:  "it was a known, tangible, clearly-stated difference that Marriott relied upon for enticement.  Now they've removed it ..."



But you still have that option, right? What difference does it make to you how they entice people? Now they can entice people with their points offering instead, since future resales are excluded.


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## potchak (Jun 25, 2010)

Because there was a premium paid for that enticement that now everyone including resale owners will have. Marriott sold us units for anywhere from 30-60% more than resale with the tool that we can trade for MRP's. Now, even resale owners by paying $1500-2000 can have all their units available for MRP's. It is an ethical issue that they have completely screwed the developer purchased weeks.


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## Y-ASK (Jun 25, 2010)

potchak said:


> Now we have the new points system introduced. For only $1,995 *anyone that purchase resale can now trade their unit into the Marriott rewards program*.
> 
> I'm very disappointed in Marriott for pushing this advantage in sales for years just to *allow everyone else have that advantage we paid a lot of money for, for so little*. I would have thought that a company like Marriott would have done more to *protect the loyalty of their customers*. In three short years I have seen time and again the *let down by Marriott to keep our loyalty*.
> 1. Reduced Marriott Rewards Points program for airfare and hotels
> ...



I really don't want to pick apart this letter sentence by sentence but what I've highlighted and the overall tone is directed solely at resale purchasers and how they should not be treated equal.  Of course you didn't mention anything about Maintenace Fees because your arguement falls apart at that point in time.  It's the whole us "Developer Owners" against those "Resale Owners" BS that offends me and the fact that you are trying to get Marriott to treat resale owners as scum that should be barely tolerated.  Is that how you would look at and treat someone who purchased, via resale, a house next to you in your neighborhood?

It was I who felt the need to point out that without resale owners you'd never be able to sell your property nor would you be able to afford your maintenance fees after many owners refused to pay theirs and yours skyrocketed up.  When you actually get to the point where it bothers you enough to send a letter asking Marriott to treat other owners differently, then I reach a point where I need to say "Stop counting other people's money!"  It's the frugal people in this world that pay their bills on time and don't buy large houses they can't afford or timeshares at full price.

I will never call anyone dumb for paying full price because it is none of my buisness what you paid.  And if I were a owner who purchased from the developer and that developer wanted to treat any potential resale buyer as second class and restrict them in some way I would be pissed off because it devalues my purchased property value as soon as I walk out the door.  You never know, you might need to sell that property one day...

Y-ASK


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## potchak (Jun 25, 2010)

Y-ASK said:


> I will never call anyone dumb for paying full price because it is none of my buisness what you paid.  And if I were a owner who purchased from the developer and that developer wanted to treat any potential resale buyer as second class and restrict them in some way I would be pissed off because it devalues my purchased property value as soon as I walk out the door.  You never know, you might need to sell that property one day...
> 
> Y-ASK



Up until this new points program, resale owners were treated differently! Period.

However, I will not harp on the fact that you think we are resale bashing- we are not. We simply want Marriott to recognize that they have screwed all retail buyers.

Now, if you don't mind, we should probably get back to the main purpose of this thread which was to post letters sent to Marriott. If you would like to continue this debate I will be happy to do so via private message. 

I suggest to the moderators to remove any commentary on the letters themselves as that was not the purpose of this thread.


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## ArtsieAng (Jun 25, 2010)

> Y-ASK
> 
> I really don't want to pick apart this letter sentence by sentence but what I've highlighted and the overall tone is directed solely at resale purchasers and how they should not be treated equal.



Hmmmm, for 25 years Marriott has been preaching how resale owners are NOT treated equally by them. Those that have purchased directly from Marriott (such as myself) have literally paid ten's of thousands of dollars more for the exact same product as those who purchased resale, based on getting those extra benefits.

Now, Marriott has suddenly decided to change their mind, and for a small entry fee, allow all resale owners the benefits that other's most likely paid 20+ thousand dollars additional to receive. 

My opinion........You got a gift! Be happy. Be very, very happy, but  stop expecting those that paid much, much, more than you based on what Marriott told them not to have a reaction to Marriott's decision. 

I haven't seen anyone here saying that Marriott should be treating resale owners as "scum," that's just silly.

Even if you purchased resale, do you not expect Marriott to give you in return the correct number of points for what you purchased? If you bought a prime ski week resale, and paid more than other resale weeks, do you not expect Marriott to recognize that fact?

Well, I think that's what some that purchased directly from Marriott might also want. They paid ten's of thousands of dollars to Marriott for something that has now gone up in smoke. Please try and understand that.


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## Y-ASK (Jun 25, 2010)

potchak said:


> Up until this new points program, resale owners were treated differently! Period.


Exactly and your resale values have suffered because of it.  Maybe your efforts should been writing letters at the time this happened and pointing this fact out to Marriott.

I really don't think the mods need to worry about removing any comments from this thread.  The thread is about open letters to Marriott and the comments they may generate.  It appears that we will just have to agree to disagree which is fine by me.  I will drop it at your request unless other comments are made that need to be addressed.


Y-ASK


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## Y-ASK (Jun 25, 2010)

ArtsieAng said:


> I haven't seen anyone here saying that Marriott should be treating resale owners as "scum," that's just silly.


Yep!  It was probably over the top and silly.  I just couldn't think of a better word at the time.  At the request of potchak I'll just drop it at this time.

Y-ASK


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## timeos2 (Jun 25, 2010)

*Buy to get best value for dollar not to punish others that did*



potchak said:


> Because there was a premium paid for that enticement that now everyone including resale owners will have. Marriott sold us units for anywhere from 30-60% more than resale with the tool that we can trade for MRP's. Now, even resale owners by paying $1500-2000 can have all their units available for MRP's. It is an ethical issue that they have completely screwed the developer purchased weeks.



You have come across one of ever present issues of sales. Whenever things are given false value based on peripheral, non-guaranteed "perks" (they may be called VIP or enhancements or preferred owners package, whatever) those items are not a true part of the deal and have no actual value. You'll find them covered in disclaimers and outs about "programs subject to change", etc and warnings that they are not transferable nor do they make up part of the ownership as they are strictly voluntary perks being dangled to help spur the sale. Basing your value to be derived in any part on those non-guaranteed benefits is a serious mistake. A very common one - these things are meant to sway you to buy overpriced product - but a mistake none the less. Those things are mere add-ons that can be offered or discontinued at any time, so depending on them to recover your value almost always means disappointment.  The "benefits" are fleeting but the money paid is most assuredly gone.  

Always look to pay the least for the base, non-revocable rights in the resort/system to glean the most value out. Almost always that means buying those base rights via resale. Looking to justify high retail pricing by "punishing" those that buy at a more effective price/benefit way (resale) is almost always going to end up costing the retail buyer and leaving them feeling taken at a minimum.  Rather than looking to punish those that found a better way to buy get the satisfaction of a good deal from making an informed choice yourself.


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## SueDonJ (Jun 25, 2010)

It really is difficult to not feel like you're being insulted when folks make distinctions between developer-direct and external resale buyers, isn't it?  I completely understand how this could make a resale buyer think twice, because I've been made to feel that way at times when the tables are turned.  Y-ASK, I really hope we can manage to make you feel that you're not being insulted here.

I've written snail mail letters to Marriott/MVCI execs on a few different occasions over the years, and actually have mentioned that I appreciate they've been able to reward developer purchasers with the MRP-exchange option even though I haven't once used it.  I've said that while I understand it will never equate to the dollars that could be saved on the external resale market, it is nice to be recognized as a valued direct customer.  (Nobody's ever responded to that little blurb but my main points in those letters have been addressed, and I was happy knowing that the point was at least heard.)

Now it feels as though Marriott has taken away that very small distinction that THEY made between direct and resale purchasers.  It's not a distinction that I've ever demanded should be made, and it doesn't matter to me one bit how the other owners of any MVCI weeks made their purchase.  If you think about it, there are discrepancies between developer purchasers in the amounts they've paid to Marriott just as there are between the amounts resale purchasers paid to their individual sellers.  This isn't about how much somebody paid as compared to someone else.  It is about Marriott removing the one distinguishing "reward" that they offered to their direct customers.

I don't know any other way to try to explain it, and I really hope that this helps to remove whatever insult resale purchasers might be feeling.  Absolutely none is intended.


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## Pit (Jun 25, 2010)

ArtsieAng said:


> Well, I think that's what some that purchased directly from Marriott might also want. *They paid ten's of thousands of dollars to Marriott for something that has now gone up in smoke.* Please try and understand that.



This is a statement I don't understand. What, exactly, have retail buyers lost ("gone up in smoke") that they paid so much for? They still have the MRP-exchange option.


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## hotcoffee (Jun 25, 2010)

SueDonJ said:


> Now it feels as though Marriott has taken away that very small distinction that THEY made between direct and resale purchasers.  It's not a distinction that I've ever demanded should be made, and it doesn't matter to me one bit how the other owners of any MVCI weeks made their purchase.  If you think about it, there are discrepancies between developer purchasers in the amounts they've paid to Marriott just as there are between the amounts resale purchasers paid to their individual sellers.  This isn't about how much somebody paid as compared to someone else.  It is about Marriott removing the one distinguishing "reward" that they offered to their direct customers.



It obviously was a business case issue for them.  In implementing this new program, they need as much initial inventory as they can get.  So, they give a window of oportunity to existing resale owners to join; and I think once many of them see they are being given a pretty good deal, many will join.  Moreover, I think it is a mistake on Marriott's part to end the window of opportunity at December 31.  From a business viewpoint, why would they not want to have the inventory of new resale owners?  It makes no business sense to shut out valuable inventory from the points trading system.  For this reason, I suspect that Marriott will at some point try to come up with a way to capture the lossed resale inventory into the points program. It may frustrate developer purchasers, but it makes good business sense for Marriott.


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

hotcoffee said:


> It obviously was a business case issue for them.  In implementing this new program, they need as much initial inventory as they can get.  So, they give a window of oportunity to existing resale owners to join; and I think once many of them see they are being given a pretty good deal, many will join.  Moreover, I think it is a mistake on Marriott's part to end the window of opportunity at December 31.  From a business viewpoint, why would they not want to have the inventory of new resale owners?  It makes no business sense to shut out valuable inventory from the points trading system.  For this reason, I suspect that Marriott will at some point try to come up with a way to capture the lossed resale inventory into the points program. It may frustrate developer purchasers, but it makes good business sense for Marriott.



Many people will join out of fear or because they feel trapped, not because it is a good deal.

Now before you ask why would anyone feel trapped let me answer that...

You can try to seel your units, but then you'll never be back with Marriott since it appears future week resales are excluded,and no resale buyer will pay $9/point.

So that leaves joining or not... If you don't join, you lost home resort priority and II inventory will decrease substantially. 

So what's left...? Join... or sell at a loss and never come back.

But what is a good deal about loss of voting rights, no like for like exchanges, no ability to lock off, higher fees in the form of skimming and hidden lockoff fees, and Marriott having the ability to change any rule at any time?


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## ArtsieAng (Jun 26, 2010)

Pit said:


> This is a statement I don't understand. What, exactly, have retail buyers lost ("gone up in smoke") that they paid so much for? They still have the MRP-exchange option.




Yes, the still do, but now, so do resale owners.


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## Pit (Jun 26, 2010)

ArtsieAng said:


> Yes, the still do, but now, so do resale owners.



So, it was the exclusivity of the option that was worth so much?


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

potchak said:


> Because there was a premium paid for that enticement that now everyone including resale owners will have. Marriott sold us units for anywhere from 30-60% more than resale with the tool that we can trade for MRP's. Now, even resale owners by paying $1500-2000 can have all their units available for MRP's. It is an ethical issue that they have completely screwed the developer purchased weeks.



No, Marriott sold you a unit with 30%-60% premium so they can pay a fat commissions to a salesperson. Where do you think that commission is paid from? They told you it was for MRP conversion.... Paying MFs for MRPs when you canbuy them from Marriott at a similar price has little value (in fact, Marriott just told us that value is $1300).


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

The convert to Marriott Rewards point always was a sales tool and nothing more. It was there to entice people to buy direct. Now it is being used as a sales took again to get resale buyers to enroll.


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## icydog (Jun 26, 2010)

*You said it so well*



BocaBoy said:


> Greg T's post shows again that TUG members are reacting negatively without understanding the new program as it relates to existing owners  IT IS AN ADDITIONAL EXCHANGE PROGRAM for us.  They are taking nothing away from us.  I have similar characteristics to Greg T--Marriott Gold, future Platinum, and I also own two weeks at Lahaina Tower in Maui, plus three other weeks with Marriott.
> 
> The new program is great for Hawaii owners if they want to trade their unit.  (If they don't, nothing changes.)  Why?  Because under the current system a Maui owner, for example, could never get fair value in a trade.  They could only get a week and there was no guarantee of view.  If I wanted to trade Maui for Ko Olina, I might get mountain view.  This has been corrected.
> 
> ...




Boca Boy,
I wish you would start a new thread with just this post. I think it will help calm people down. Folks do not understand that they do NOT have to swap their week for club points if they do not wish to. They can continue to use their weeks in the same way as they always have if they want. 

I too recognize the benefit in costs for II for Lock offs, for trades, for redeposits, for turning your week in for Marriott Reward Points. All these fees add up to a lot of $.. I think the new program will pay for itself in the long run. Especially for developer owners. 

I am not a developer owner and bought into the program for the reasons above plus it gives me the ability to change my week for Marriott Reward Points every other year.. That is something I could not do with my resell weeks before and a perk I really like. 

To the OP..

You compare Hilton to Marriott but Hilton was already a point system. They built in the breakage. Marriott had to start again in a system that already existed. I think if you look at a Hilton Week you will see the points for the weekends are VERY VERY High. That more than accounts for the difference in points or the skimming you mentioned.


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## DanCali (Jun 26, 2010)

icydog said:


> Boca Boy,
> I wish you would start a new thread with just this post. I think it will help calm people down. Folks do not understand that they do NOT have to swap their week for club points if they do not wish to. They can continue to use their weeks in the same way as they always have if they want.
> 
> I too recognize the benefit in costs for II for Lock offs, for trades, for redeposits, for turning your week in for Marriott Reward Points. All these fees add up to a lot of $.. I think the new program will pay for itself in the long run. Especially for developer owners.



Let's wait to see how II works for weeks owners before we say you can't lose anything...

And paying $1500 + $200 a year increases MFs by 20%, especially if your attitude is I'll use my weeks and enroll because I have nothing to lose. 

But if you don't enrolll and just keep using weeks,do you think you'll get the same inventory in II? Or did we lose something after all? And we did and now we have to join, then the costs of skimming apply, so did we lose something now?

It is not "breakage" if Marriott turns around and sells the points to owners for a profit. It is skimming/stealing (MO, of course).


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## jerseygirl (Jun 26, 2010)

icydog said:


> You compare Hilton to Marriott but Hilton was already a point system. They built in the breakage. Marriott had to start again in a system that already existed. I think if you look at a Hilton Week you will see the points for the weekends are VERY VERY High. That more than accounts for the difference in points or the skimming you mentioned.



Marylyn --You may be correct that Hilton started as a point system (I don't know the history -- certainly the affiliates started as weeks systems), but it's very comparable to Marriott's "legacy" system in that all members own a specific deeded week.  One cannot simply decide to buy 1000 (or 5000) points.  Yes, weekends are higher, percentage-wise, than Marriott is charging for weekends.  But, it's not fair to call it "skimming" since points in = points out for all trades.  "Skimming" refers to the fact that, in most (all?) cases, even a fixed week owner is not receiving the same number of points for trading out as are required to trade in.  You will not find any instances of that in Hilton's, Hyatt's, Starwood's, or DVC's systems.


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## GregT (Jun 26, 2010)

icydog said:


> To the OP..
> 
> You compare Hilton to Marriott but Hilton was already a point system. They built in the breakage. Marriott had to start again in a system that already existed. I think if you look at a Hilton Week you will see the points for the weekends are VERY VERY High. That more than accounts for the difference in points or the skimming you mentioned.



Good morning,

I definitely agree that Hilton built in the breakage, but they also instituted an Open Season to help absorb that unused inventory (as a benefit to the owner), versus increasing the breakage percentage.   I certainly expected weekends in a Marriott Points Program to be higher (much higher) than Sun-Thurs (as they are with my other two point systems) -- on our last trip with Wyndham, we met several couples there that arrived Sunday and departed Friday, a great way to stretch their points.

There is alot about the Marriott system that is very appealing, which makes the skimming a shame, because it is so inconsistent with the other features of the program (and how I viewed Marriott).

As I indicated my original post, this is less an issue for me because Marriott is still offering me lots of points were I to choose to join -- just at a 13.3% discount (and I have really strong fixed prime summer weeks).

But it's really disappointing for the people who owned Platinum that now get the average for their season and now find themselves short 350 points to be able to go where they want to go.  

Why the skim?  Why solve the breakage question by permanently discounting the value, versus instituting an Open Season?   

And it creates the appearance of badwill by Marriott, even if they had perfect legitimate reasons for it, which they've not yet communicated.   

Please believe me, I am trying to get over this issue (others I respect have told to me to let it go) but I can't get over what feels like bad faith -- and it feels much more like Wyndham (where we are accustomed to it) than Hilton (where the owners are very devoted).

Frustrating stuff...

Best to all,

Greg


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> Marylyn --You may be correct that Hilton started as a point system (I don't know the history -- certainly the affiliates started as weeks systems), but it's very comparable to Marriott's "legacy" system in that all members own a specific deeded week.  One cannot simply decide to buy 1000 (or 5000) points.  Yes, weekends are higher, percentage-wise, than Marriott is charging for weekends.  But, it's not fair to call it "skimming" since points in = points out for all trades.  "Skimming" refers to the fact that, in most (all?) cases, even a fixed week owner is not receiving the same number of points for trading out as are required to trade in.  You will not find any instances of that in Hilton's, Hyatt's, Starwood's, or DVC's systems.



This isn't true, it isn't as simple as points in equals points out. It costs more to book a studio and a 1BR separately. So if I put in 2000 points with my 2BR, I can't get equal accommodation (a 1BR and a studio) with those same 2000 points.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

GregT said:


> Why the skim?  Why solve the breakage question by permanently discounting the value, versus instituting an Open Season?



The new program does have an open reservation season at the 60 day mark. The problem with it though is that it doesn't do much more than the Priority 3 period. Open reservation allows all members to book single nights at the 60 day mark. The problem is that there are very very few members that can only book in open reservation. Almost all members can book single nights at 10 months. So when the 60 day mark comes a long, there isn't really any incentive for more people to book additional single nights.

I think this is where Marriott goofed. They should have made the Priority 3 reservation period a five or two night requirement. You had to either book the Sun - Thurs time period or the Fri - Sat time period, not just single nights at the 10 month mark.


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## GregT (Jun 26, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> This isn't true, it isn't as simple as points in equals points out. It costs more to book a studio and a 1BR separately. So if I put in 2000 points with my 2BR, I can't get equal accommodation (a 1BR and a studio) with those same 2000 points.



With apologies, most of the HGVC properties I've looked at are "mathematically clean", ie a 2BR requires 7,000 points to book, a 1BR 
requires 4,800 to book, and a Studio requires 2,200 to book.

What HGVC didn't do is differentiate points in locations (which they should have, and are starting to do now).

IE, 7,000 points in Las Vegas or Orlando gets you a 2BR unit, and if you own in Las Vegas and Orlando, you can use your 7,000 points to book a 2BR at Hilton Hawaiian Village in Oahu (Kalia/Lagoon Towers) or at Waikoloa on the Big Island -- and these aren't affiliate properties.

It's interesting that their newer properties (not necessarily better but newer) like Kingland and Grand Waikikian have broken the trend and now require (significantly) higher points values.

There is a home resort advantage -- it's an interesting system.

Frankly, Marriott incorporated most of what is the best about the different systems I'm familiar with (HGVC, Worldmark and Wyndham) and overlaid it with their existing properties.

Owners were expecting for the first time to quantify the difference in locations/weeks, so that's not surprising (but perhaps disappointing).

But the level of skim doesn't appear commensurate to the lost value of the existing owners.  Worldmark has a 90% occupancy rate, system wide, all properties (with a few of the duds being majority of the vacant units).  There is very rarely availability at the best properties during the equivalent of Platinum -- there's a Sightings board at WMOwners devoted to alert the members when something IS available.

Frustrating stuff...

Best to all,

Greg


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## dioxide45 (Jun 26, 2010)

I think the skim is there more to adjust for broken weeks rather than just plain breakage. Breakage in II is a week that goes unused. II doesn't have broken weeks. Breakage in the new Marriott system may only be a week here and a week there. Broken weeks will be high, but overall breakage may still be low.


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## jerseygirl (Jun 26, 2010)

jerseygirl said:


> Marylyn --You may be correct that Hilton started as a point system (I don't know the history -- certainly the affiliates started as weeks systems), but it's very comparable to Marriott's "legacy" system in that all members own a specific deeded week.  One cannot simply decide to buy 1000 (or 5000) points.  Yes, weekends are higher, percentage-wise, than Marriott is charging for weekends.  But, it's not fair to call it "skimming" since points in = points out for all trades.  "Skimming" refers to the fact that, in most (all?) cases, even a fixed week owner is not receiving the same number of points for trading out as are required to trade in.  You will not find any instances of that in Hilton's, Hyatt's, Starwood's, or DVC's systems.





dioxide45 said:


> This isn't true, it isn't as simple as points in equals points out. It costs more to book a studio and a 1BR separately. So if I put in 2000 points with my 2BR, I can't get equal accommodation (a 1BR and a studio) with those same 2000 points.



Dioxide -- you're right.  Sorry, I keep forgetting that a one-BR plus Studio does not equal a 2-BR L/O in Marriott's system (I guess it's so implausible to me that I'm blocking it! ).  Having said that, my point was that Hilton doesn't skim points from any owner/member.  All points out = points in, whether it be a one-BR for a one-BR, a two-BR for a two-BR, or a one-BR plus a studio for a two-BR lockout.  

At Starwood resorts with both dedicated 2-BRs and 2-BR L/Os (e.g., Harborside), the 2-BR L/Os have more point value than the dedicated 2-BRs (and they split into 2 one-BRs).  I always thought the situation at Grande Vista was strange.  I remember reading that a 2-BR L/O was priced the same as a regular 2-BR and owners could end up with either/or when they reserved.  I know that theoretically they're the same, but I would think value would be placed on the ability to split the two units for two weeks of usage or rent one side.  Do they distinguish them at all differently in the new system?  (Or, perhaps I've always just misunderstood the situation based on something I read here on TUG.)


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## m61376 (Jun 26, 2010)

A few comments to several of the above posts:

Greg- while I totally agree with you, I'd like ot go one step further- what about the resorts where owners weren't allocated enough points to book ANY weeks in their season? What about the Plat. Plus fixed week Waiohai owner who received less points for his fixed week than it would cost him to book it?

Now- to counter Marylin's argument that you can always continue to use the system as you always have. In fact, if Marriott can take week deposits that were put in II by week owners (whether or not they are part of the new program or not) and use those weeks to fulfill requests by points owners (or week owners using points) from the waitlist, than EVERY owner, whether or not they elect to convert, just lost a big piece of the current system. If Marriott is the designated higher value request, then the peak weeks will go to the highest bidder- and guess what's left? Week owners may have a hard time trading into any peak weeks if point owners want those weeks.

So cheerleading the new program by saying that it is simply an overlay system with lots of nice benefits if you choose to use them, lower fees (ignoring the 7-15% commission Marriott is taking on each transaction), and that current owners have nothing to lose if they choose not to join or if they join and just continue business as usual may all sound good in the sales office, but - personally- I think is quite fallacious.


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## bogey21 (Jun 26, 2010)

*How in the world are non-sophisticated owners going to figure out what is going on?  I'm talking about those people who bought a lock-off, say 10 years ago, to use, trade and/or rent and  have been doing the same things with their Weeks for years.  Isn't their world now changed dramatically?

George*


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## BocaBoy (Jun 28, 2010)

*hawaii Values*

Ko Olina and Waiohai owners seem unhappy because they think they should have equal value to Maui, despite the fact that Maui is in greater demand and cost 50% more to buy.   That is nonsense IMHO.  I own at all three resorts and I feel this is a correction of an inequity that has gone on too long.


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## brigechols (Jun 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Ko Olina and Waiohai owners seem unhappy because they think they should have equal value to Maui, despite the fact that Maui is in greater demand and cost 50% more to buy.   That is nonsense IMHO.  I own at all three resorts and I feel this is a correction of an inequity that has gone on too long.



While I cannot speak for other Ko Olina or Waiohai owners, this Ko Olina owner could care less about Maui allocated points. I was not allocated enough points at Ko Olina to book *any *week during  the year. Yes, I can still reserve a week at my home resort under the previous system but it is one of many factors that I considered when evaluating whether or not to join the Club.


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## scrapngen (Jun 28, 2010)

BocaBoy said:


> Ko Olina and Waiohai owners seem unhappy because they think they should have equal value to Maui, despite the fact that Maui is in greater demand and cost 50% more to buy.   That is nonsense IMHO.  I own at all three resorts and I feel this is a correction of an inequity that has gone on too long.



I am a Waiohai owner and I have no particular feelings toward Maui trades - I am an unhappy Waiohai owner because one of my fixed weeks that was sold to me 6 months ago at a premium price as a Plat plus week is now allocated the same points as a cheaper Plat week at the same resort. AND it is not enough points to book any but the lowest level weeks at that same resort. Yes, since it is a fixed week I can always book my premium week. But it certainly is not allocated a fair number of points within my own resort - according to price paid and how many points it would cost to reserve. It makes no sense for me to go to points.  I actually wanted to puchase another week in the next year, but would not buy the new points, as I like having a home resort. 

Nothing to do with Maui points.


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## m61376 (Jun 28, 2010)

Bocaboy- Just to add- the new Maui towers may be 50% more expensive, but the original section doesn't have a 50% purchase premium, unless I am mistaken in the pricing.

There are many non-Hawaii owners who are very unhappy with the point allocations. There are owners at other resorts that didn't get enough points to book ANY week in their season. And you refer to pricing being higher, so one should get more points- what about the fact that last week Marirott felt OS in Aruba was almost 5k more valuable, but suddenly this week OS=OV? And, since you are talking about pricing- what about that fact that Marirott rents some units for double what other properties rent for (since price equates to value, right) but gives the higher rental properties significantly less points? There are MANY inconsistencies in the point valuations. 

I agree with one inference you made- pricing should relate to value. But pricing charged for resorts also relates to the time of construction, so there is an inflationary factor. Real value is represented by what Marriott itself can charge to rent the villas at Marirott.com. That would reflect quality and demand. But the point values don't represent that.


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## kamumma1 (Jun 28, 2010)

*Dear Marriott*

Dear Marriott -

Overall, there are pros and cons to this new point system.  For our family, we bought 2 weeks in Orlando that we were going to mostly trade and travel to a variety of places.  Our rep "sold" us on the idea that we could buy cheaper units and trade almost anywhere.  We take 2 week long vacations with Marriott each year.  Should we switch to the point system however, we will not be able to travel to a majority of places on the number of points we would receive, without investing many thousands more into your company.  While it is nice to be able to pick your view at the resort, and to choose how many days you want to stay - if we switch to the points system, we would no longer be able to use our timeshares in the way that they were sold to us.  It is switching the rules 1/2 way through and frankly we wouldn't have purchased what we did back then if the rules are the way they are now.  Even if we continue to use the system the way we were sold, there is going to be less inventory at Interval as anyone joining the points system will no longer be depositing there - making exchanges more difficult.  I am also wary as to how Marriott is allowed to "take weeks" from the Interval inventory.  I am also wary as to how Marriott is allowed to change what our units are worth in terms of points.  We have really enjoyed the resorts and hotels that we have traded and exchanged into and would like to continue to do so in the future.  However, if the exchange process becomes too limiting or doesn't allow us to make decent trades, we will most likely be selling our units vs sinking thousands of additional dollars into a system just to get what we originally purchased.

Concerned,
Kathy Mumma

(I also sent this to the Marriott Owners Advocacy Group)


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## mjbaran (Jun 28, 2010)

kamumma1 said:


> Dear Marriott -
> 
> Overall, there are pros and cons to this new point system.  For our family, we bought 2 weeks in Orlando that we were going to mostly trade and travel to a variety of places.  Our rep "sold" us on the idea that we could buy cheaper units and trade almost anywhere.  We take 2 week long vacations with Marriott each year.  Should we switch to the point system however, we will not be able to travel to a majority of places on the number of points we would receive, without investing many thousands more into your company.  While it is nice to be able to pick your view at the resort, and to choose how many days you want to stay - if we switch to the points system, we would no longer be able to use our timeshares in the way that they were sold to us.  It is switching the rules 1/2 way through and frankly we wouldn't have purchased what we did back then if the rules are the way they are now.  Even if we continue to use the system the way we were sold, there is going to be less inventory at Interval as anyone joining the points system will no longer be depositing there - making exchanges more difficult.  I am also wary as to how Marriott is allowed to "take weeks" from the Interval inventory.  I am also wary as to how Marriott is allowed to change what our units are worth in terms of points.  We have really enjoyed the resorts and hotels that we have traded and exchanged into and would like to continue to do so in the future.  However, if the exchange process becomes too limiting or doesn't allow us to make decent trades, we will most likely be selling our units vs sinking thousands of additional dollars into a system just to get what we originally purchased.
> 
> ...



Kathy, WELL DONE!!
My sentiments exactly.


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## Y-ASK (Jun 28, 2010)

kamumma1 said:


> However, if the exchange process becomes too limiting or doesn't allow us to make decent trades, we will most likely be selling our units vs sinking thousands of additional dollars into a system just to get what we originally purchased.


Marriott's reply:

   Thank you for your kind words and we would like you to know that you are free to sell both of your timeshares at any time.  In fact we are in need of your weeks for our Trust Inventory so please sell your timeshares for pennies on the dollar and we will be happy to pick them up via ROFR for said pennies on the dollar.

Have a nice day,
Marriott... 

On a more serious note, please be prepared for signficantly lower offers (if any) that you may receive when you put them up for sale.  I'm sure there are going to be other owners that will be selling also and if you're having problems with trading so will everyone else who decides not to enroll.


Y-ASK


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## Clemson Fan (Jun 29, 2010)

ArtsieAng said:


> Now, Marriott has suddenly decided to change their mind, and for a small entry fee, allow all resale owners the benefits that other's most likely paid 20+ thousand dollars additional to receive.
> 
> My opinion........You got a gift! Be happy. Be very, very happy, but stop expecting those that paid much, much, more than you based on what Marriott told them not to have a reaction to Marriott's decision.


 
What gift??? Am I missing something here? IMO the exchanging your week for MRP’s has become a worthless option over the past several years. Can’t I use cash to buy 50K points/year for roughly the same prorated cost of my MF’s, plus I’m not losing the use of my week?

Unless you got like 500K points or something (and you’re a point hawk who knows how to maximize it) as a bonus for buying developer, there was really no good reason to buy developer. The trading your week for MRP option is nothing to write home about. I hate to say it, but those who bought developer and then who found TUG later on and who aren’t point hawks just frankly made a costly mistake. They’re using the trading for MRP option as a rationalization to justify their costly mistake, but that’s all it is – rationalization. IMO, you need to just acknowledge the mistake in your mind and just get over it and enjoy your weeks to the best of your ability. Writing letters to Marriott with the expressed intention of punishing resale owners makes no sense whatsoever because in the end it’s just hurting yourselves even further. Punishing resale owners only benefits the Marriott timeshare salesmen – that’s it! Unless you are a Marriott timeshare salesman or are directly related to one, going out of your way to protect their interest makes no sense because in the long run their interests are in direct conflict to our interest as owners. They don’t want any viable resale market because it’s competition to them and they want to crush that competition. However, without a viable resale market the value of our weeks will be completely up to Marriott and we all know from past experience that except for the most sought after weeks Marriott could care less about the value of our weeks. 

Punishing resales will ONLY devalue our weeks. My biggest concern about the new points program is Marriott not allowing any future resale weeks to be included. I’m not in the market for a week nor am I looking to sell my weeks, but someday we will ALL probably be in the market to sell our weeks. However, by not allowing future resale weeks to be included it will severely devalue ALL our weeks. We should be writing letters to Marriott expressing frustration over them not allowing future resales to be reasonably allowed to join their new points system. It makes good sense for Marriott as a whole because they will get more weeks to participate and they can collect more in fees as long as they are somewhat reasonable.


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## ArtsieAng (Jun 29, 2010)

> Clemson Fan
> 
> What gift??? Am I missing something here? IMO the exchanging your week for MRP’s has become a worthless option over the past several years.



Be that as it may, when Marriott charges tens of thousands of dollars per week, for the privilege, and then decides that for a mere $1999, they will allow resale weeks the same privilege, it's a gift. IMO

BTW, I disagree with your assessment. I've read numerous times on this board that people were converting, or considering converting because Marriott was grandfathering them into the system, and allowing them the  option to trade in their week for points.



> Punishing resales will ONLY devalue our weeks.




Someone has to buy retail in order for you to buy resale. Let's not forget that fact.........What incentive is there to pay tens of thousand of dollars more to Marriott, when in the end, it makes little difference?


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## hipslo (Jun 29, 2010)

ArtsieAng said:


> What incentive is there to pay tens of thousand of dollars more to Marriott, when in the end, it makes little difference?



Many of us feel that there never has been any incentive to buy developer (at least none that was worth anything). 

Now, if the new points system were a good, desireable system, and resale owners were excluded from joining, that would certainly have been an incentive to purchase direct.  The fact that marriott has not drawn that distinction, at least as to prior resales, ought to tell you everything you need to know about how loyal marriott feels towards direct purchasers over resale purchasers, at least where there is money to be made off of those resale owners.


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## ArtsieAng (Jun 29, 2010)

hipslo said:


> Many of us feel that there never has been any incentive to buy developer (at least none that was worth anything).
> 
> I don't disagree, but obviously, some did. At any rate, that has been Marriott's spiel, and many bought into it.....Again, if no one buys retail, there can be no resale market.
> 
> Now, if the new points system were a good, desireable system, and resale owners were excluded from joining, that would certainly have been an incentive to purchase direct.  The fact that marriott has not drawn that distinction, at least as to prior resales, ought to tell you everything you need to know about how loyal marriott feels towards direct purchasers over resale purchasers, at least where there is money to be made off of those resale owners.



Yup, I agree.


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## Clemson Fan (Jun 29, 2010)

ArtsieAng said:


> Someone has to buy retail in order for you to buy resale. Let's not forget that fact.........What incentive is there to pay tens of thousand of dollars more to Marriott, when in the end, it makes little difference?


 
I recently bought DVC directly from DVC. Why, because they support their product with an active ROFR and there’s an active resale market. There’s a very active resale market for DVC outside the confines of DVC that they allow to exist. Knowing that I could turn around and sell my DVC points (granted probably for a 20-30% loss) made it very palatable to me and a no brainer decision with the incentives DVC was giving me. I can honestly recommend DVC to friends and family, for Marriott I cannot.

Allowing a resale market to exist helps support one’s product. Relying on a flashy sales presentation and gimmicks like MRP’s to capture unsuspecting customers in this day and age is a bad business model IMO. Destroying the resale market will in the end destroy the underlying value of the product. It’s been proven time and time again by other timeshare companies.

Just follow DVC’s example and support your underlying product and in the long run it will be very successful.


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## RBERR1 (Jun 29, 2010)

*letter to Marriott*

Dear Mr.Marriott,

I was hoping that Marriott would create some kind of point system for its owners and it is nice to see that you have created one. However, I have some questions and concerns about how it is being implemented. I think that the difference in points between what an individual receives versus the amount required to pay for the same week in the same resort is not acceptable. The value of a week should be the same regardless.

I am also concerned about the lack of transparency between MVCI and II relating to the new system. There is an impression(rightly or wrongly) that Marriott and II have an agreement to take any weeks deposits by weeks owners and give them to Marriott to use for its point requests over other weeks owners searching for the same property. I believe that both organizations need to send out a simple statement explaining how this is going to work because being transparent is the best way to avoid misunderstandings.

My last concern has to do with the MVCI staff ability to answer questions about the program. When you call MVCI, the answers you get are very inconsistent. If you call three times, you get very different answers about any question about the system. I have always said that the MVCI staff have been amazing but this is making them look like they are incompetent which is not the impression you want. 

I believe that there is potential for this to be a great point system with a few minor changes and clarifications. Based on what I see now, I feel there is insufficient disclosure in simple terms to make a proper decision and so I sit on the fence for now about whether to join. 
Thank you for the opportunity again for me to provide my feedback.

Sincerely,


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## eileenpat (Jun 30, 2010)

*Letter to Marriott*

Perfect!  You have expressed the concerns to a "T"!


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## AndrewH (Jul 18, 2010)

I purchased two Platinum weeks at Grande Vista in February 2010 directly from Marriott, paying nearly $60,000 for the privilege.  In July 2010 (when taking my first vacation) I was invited by a salesman to buy into the new points based system.  His advice was that I pay an additional $10,000 to increase my points to above 6,400, a threshold that would qualify me for preferential treatment when booking holidays at other resorts.

At risk of repeating what has gone before, my concerns about the new scheme are twofold:

(1)  The points I receive from my purchase in February 2010 are  insufficient to "buy" two weeks at my home resort.  This is an outrageous and arbitrary value debasement that has been imposed in less than six months.  It similarly inhibits my ability to stay at other resorts.

(2) (In response to the salesman's defence that I needn't worry because I will still be able to trade weeks through II) Marriot intends to remove inventory over time from II, and hence the scope to swap into other resorts will reduce.  Note in this context the expectation by Marriott that 80% of weekly owners will (pay up and) transfer into the points system, leaving those who dislike undergoing a shakedown having an unpopular rump of properties from which to select.  Looks like my choices in the future will be Florida or bronze weeks in Baghdad.  

I actually quite like the proposed points based system, which is transparent and elegant.  What I dislike is the fact that it is being introduced in a way which requires owners like myself to pay a second "entry" fee to acquire entitlements that I thought I had already purchased.  I consider the discount on points allocation to be entirely capricious in this regard.  The fact that I am suffering the dilution less than six months into my Marriott relationship makes me feel very sore.

The salesman who delivered the pitch to me was surprisingly candid.  He explained that I didn't question having to buy periodic software upgrades from Microsoft, and should look at Marriott Vacation Club as being no different.  His argument was essentially, "you are already in for $60k, what's the problem with another $10k to get what you want?"  The responses he gave to my ever more incredulous questions evidenced that the Marriott sales team (read Marriott Inc) know that many weekly owners will be losing out, or at least obliged to pay further capital lump sums if they are not to lose out.  

Looking on the bright side, do I get an award for being the sucker of the year?


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## 5infam (Jul 18, 2010)

Nicely done Andrew - and Welcome to TUG!!!


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