# 3 Ohio women held hostage now free



## Tia (May 7, 2013)

Scary but a good ending in the news today

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...eing-missing-for-a-decade-3-men-arrested?lite

Makes me wonder about the Aruba girl that went missing...


----------



## Carol C (May 7, 2013)

Natalie Holloway went missing in Aruba which is surrounded by water. Not much chance she's been holed up in some house there, but then again the authorities in Aruba didn't give the victim's family much support or so I've heard. So maybe there is hope for Natalie Holloway...but really there needs to be pressure from US Citizens for that case to be re-opened. (Might I suggest a travel boycott to Aruba? I sure wouldn't ever go there after what happened to that poor girl and the awful treatment the Holloway family got from Aruban officials.)

As for the three girls found in Ohio after a decade of being missing, I can only say this is a miracle and such wonderful news today. And Mr Charles Ramsey the neighborhood man who heard screams and aided in the rescue is to be applauded for not turning a blind eye to someone in need. Cleveland needs to give him the key to the city or something...he could have just ignored screams, especially if it's a bad neighborhood...but he chose to get involved. God Bless Mr Ramsey!


----------



## AwayWeGo (May 7, 2013)

*More Happy Endings Needed.*

Pray for Katherine & Sheila Lyon, who have been missing since 1975. 

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​


----------



## presley (May 7, 2013)

I'm thankful that they are safe.  I cannot imagine what they all went through for 10 years, being kept under the radar like that.


----------



## Phydeaux (May 7, 2013)

Carol C said:


> Might I suggest a travel boycott to Aruba? I sure wouldn't ever go there after what happened to that poor girl and the awful treatment the Holloway family got from Aruban officials.!



Just curious, did you also boycott your travel to Mexico when Jon Hammer, the young ex Marine was tossed in jail, beaten, and chained to a bunk and kept in a cell for 5 months for making the error of bringing his grandfathers shotgun. That he voluntarily declared at the border no less?


----------



## SMHarman (May 7, 2013)

Tia said:


> Scary but a good ending in the news today
> 
> http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...eing-missing-for-a-decade-3-men-arrested?lite
> 
> Makes me wonder about the Aruba girl that went missing...


Reminds me of this story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jamelske


----------



## Carol C (May 7, 2013)

Phydeaux said:


> Just curious, did you also boycott your travel to Mexico when Jon Hammer, the young ex Marine was tossed in jail, beaten, and chained to a bunk and kept in a cell for 5 months for making the error of bringing his grandfathers shotgun. That he voluntarily declared at the border no less?



Yes, I did in fact boycott until after he was released. I can and do personally boycott products, places, etc when injustice bothers the crap out of me. Thanks for asking!


----------



## Carol C (May 7, 2013)

*Here's some astonishing new info...*

I put in *bold* the part of this yahoo news article that strikes me as odd. If the community is so tight knit, how is it that 3 girls can be held captive in a house for 10 years? Oh...and to think one of the perps was a school bus driver just sickens me, too. 

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...nda-berry-real-hero-kidnapping-141444873.html

An American flag and a Puerto Rican flag hung outside the front door of the house Tuesday. The Puerto Rican flag bothered Lucy Delgado, a nearby resident with family living in the largely Puerto Rican neighborhood. "It doesn't deserve to be there," Delgado said of the flag. "This is like, oh my God crazy stuff like this should never happen here."

*Delgado described the community as tight knit. "Everybody knows each others business," she said.*

Police declined to provide specific details about the home where the women were kept or its condition upon their arrival on Monday. They said the home is an active crime scene and detectives were processing it through the night.


----------



## laurac260 (May 9, 2013)

Carol C said:


> I put in *bold* the part of this yahoo news article that strikes me as odd. If the community is so tight knit, how is it that 3 girls can be held captive in a house for 10 years? Oh...and to think one of the perps was a school bus driver just sickens me, too.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...nda-berry-real-hero-kidnapping-141444873.html
> 
> ...



This may very well have been a tight knit community, but it doesn't seem the perp wanted to be one of the "threads".   He put himself out there "just enough" to keep folks from wondering about him.  Ironic that he has that much self control, yet he had no self control when he chose to do what he did.   Sad that he didn't  use his that sort of ability  for good, instead of evil.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (May 9, 2013)

The good people of Aruba closed their businesses, schools, etc. to go out and search for Natalie. They volunteered their time and efforts to find this young woman on their own time & dime.

My information comes from being in Aruba and speaking to the locals soon after Natalie's disappearance. Many had dedicated themselves to search for her.

As for me, I could not punish these folks based on their actions. But, that's just me. I did feel differently prior to  going to Aruba and had a knee-jerk reaction with wanting to boycott, etc., but I kept an open mind and learned the other side of the story.

My cab driver was the brother of the lead investigator. He would go out with the various volunteer search parties on his off-time from work.


----------



## Sea Six (May 9, 2013)

At least Joran van der Sloot is in jail for 28 years for murder.  Meanwhile, back in Ohio, why were two of the Castro brothers released?


----------



## DeniseM (May 9, 2013)

Sea Six said:


> At least Joran van der Sloot is in jail for 28 years for murder.  Meanwhile, back in Ohio, why were two of the Castro brothers released?



Common sense says that the captives indicated that they weren't involved...


----------



## TF865 (May 9, 2013)

I pray for a miracle for Brittany Drexel, a teenager from my home here in Rochester, NY who went missing in Myrtle Beach about 4 years ago. I can't possibly imagine the horror of not knowing year after year!


----------



## Sea Six (May 9, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> Common sense says that the captives indicated that they weren't involved...



Common sense would be if the brothers reported what was going on to the police about 9 years ago. These guys knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it.


----------



## DeniseM (May 9, 2013)

Sea Six said:


> Common sense would be if the brothers reported what was going on to the police about 9 years ago. These guys knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it.



How do you know that?


----------



## Phydeaux (May 9, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> How do you know that?



Common sense?


----------



## DeniseM (May 9, 2013)

One of my brothers is in my house once a year for Christmas, the other one hasn't been in my house for years.  They have no idea who I have chained in the basement...


----------



## csxjohn (May 9, 2013)

Sea Six said:


> .... These guys knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it.



Wow, talk about jumping to conclusions without knowing what really happened.

A friend of mine played in a band with the kidnapper and no one had any idea what was going on in that house.  Should my friend be held also?

Let's wait for the facts to come out before we start hanging people.


----------



## csxjohn (May 9, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> One of my brothers is in my house once a year for Christmas, the other one hasn't been in my house for years.  They have no idea who I have chained in the basement...



I don't suppose you'll give us a little hint so we can try to figure it out?:ignore:


----------



## DeniseM (May 9, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> I don't suppose you'll give us a little hint so we can try to figure it out?:ignore:



They are Tuggers who wouldn't behave themselves...


----------



## ace2000 (May 10, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> They are Tuggers who wouldn't behave themselves...



Anyone heard from Ride recently???


----------



## geekette (May 10, 2013)

Sometimes there are things you simply do not know about people close to you.  We are not open books.   Plenty of news items over time of people conducting "secret lives".  

I won't be hanging the brothers and assume there was no evidence to hold them.  They may be just as horrified as the rest of us, but also may feel deep guilt and anguish for not figuring it out.

Common sense is not evidence.


----------



## Phydeaux (May 10, 2013)

..meanwhile his mother and children are calling him a "monster".


----------



## presley (May 10, 2013)

I've seen statements by the creep's daughter, his mother, his sister and his BIL.  They all seem very traumatized by finding this out.  I would imagine that his brothers are feeling the same way.  This guy is obviously a pro at manipulating those around him.  I wonder how many people have been emotionally ruined thanks to this creep.


----------



## Ridewithme38 (May 10, 2013)

A small house, with the only thing seperating the women for freedom being, drywall, glass and/or plywood....

Let me ask the other ladies here....Do you REALLY think over a 10yr period there was NO chance for that girl to escape if she wanted to?  What if it was you....You don't think over 3,650 days you could have figured SOMETHING out?


----------



## geekette (May 10, 2013)

I am stronger now than I was at that age, this is not a fair question to an adult population.  Remember, they were Very young, beaten and raped, repeatedly.  Apparently 2 of them ended up rather brainwashed (it was 10 years!!), they were TESTED on escaping - presumably it was tried and they were punished.  Presumably the consequences of a failed escape could be worse than just being obedient.  

Don't pretend that you know how it was and how easy it would be to get free.  Just Don't.

We also do not know the extent of their injuries nor roped/chained confinement.  You say drywall, I say Maybe Concrete.  Could be barbed wire, I don't know, and neither do you.

Further, please do not blame the victims.  It is beyond unseemly.


----------



## PigsDad (May 10, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> A small house, with the only thing seperating the women for freedom being, drywall, glass and/or plywood....
> 
> Let me ask the other ladies here....Do you REALLY think over a 10yr period there was NO chance for that girl to escape if she wanted to?  What if it was you....You don't think over 3,650 days you could have figured SOMETHING out?



Are you really trying to blame the victims now?  

You have no idea the physical or mental trauma they went through.  To even ask such a question is of extreme poor taste.

Kurt


----------



## Ridewithme38 (May 10, 2013)

edited.........


----------



## DeniseM (May 10, 2013)

Also, according to the news reports, two of the girls were developmentally delayed (i.e. "slow".)


----------



## Ridewithme38 (May 10, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> Also, according to the news reports, two of the girls were developmentally delayed (i.e. "slow".)



I wasn't aware of that....and am not sure what degree of developmentally delayed they were....I had a friend in high school who was labeled developmentally delayed, really, he was just as 'there' as everyone else, just wasn't very good at math.  But of course, there are huge difference between someone like my old friend and someone unable to even care for themselves because of their disability


----------



## SueDonJ (May 10, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> A small house, with the only thing seperating the women for freedom being, drywall, glass and/or plywood....
> 
> Let me ask the other ladies here....Do you REALLY think over a 10yr period there was NO chance for that girl to escape if she wanted to?  What if it was you....You don't think over 3,650 days you could have figured SOMETHING out?



I wouldn't even begin to try to think that I would have been able to do something differently than what those women thought they could do.  They've been victimized enough, they don't now need you or me trying to tell them that somehow they weren't responsible enough for their own well-being.


----------



## vacationhopeful (May 10, 2013)

Some very uneducated people are EXCELLANT con artists and manipulators. More insightful than a shrink - in a limited functional area.  And he was in his 40s to girls as young at 14. And girls whose world was not travelling or reading; just simple and directed by an older person without question. He selected his targets with skill and snatched them at times he knew they would NOT be immediately missed- a colder trail for the police to follow. 

Plus, in my experience in low income areas, it is important to NOT ASK QUESTIONS - you are told repeatedly, "Don't make that trouble yours.", "Keep your eyes forward - that don't involve you.", "Asking questions will get you hurt." 

You see people on the street and never ask anything - where they live, where they work, going out with someone, where is your brother/sister, you got a car, nothing ... It reminds me of caveman talk - grunts and body language, pecking order, nods of the head, no "where is what's his face", or anybody's health. Very parnoid cultural - less anyone knows about you the better. And if you do ask about someone, they or their family want to know why you are asking - and that might NOT be a very pleasant conversation they have with you.


----------



## Ridewithme38 (May 10, 2013)

vacationhopeful said:


> Some very uneducated people are EXCELLANT con artists and manipulators. More insightful than a shrink - in a limited functional area.  And he was in his 40s to girls as young at 14. And girls whose world was not travelling or reading; just simple and directed by an older person without question.



See this is kinda what i thought when i first saw the story, this guy convinced the girls they wanted to stay, sort of Stockholm syndrome....It just seems to me, it would be VERY hard if not impossible to hold 3 people hostage for 10 years, unless they were somehow willing to stay.

Something happened and they snapped after 10 years and the neighbor heard them.  Don't get me wrong, i don't think the guy was innocent, he took advantage of naive women.  But, is it REALLY kidnapping if the girls WANTED to stay?


----------



## SueDonJ (May 10, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> ... Don't get me wrong, i don't think the guy was innocent, he took advantage of naive women.  But, is it REALLY kidnapping if the girls WANTED to stay?



There are no words.


----------



## sue1947 (May 10, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> But, is it REALLY kidnapping if the girls WANTED to stay?



This statement is beyond belief.  The scary thing is that you have a daughter.  Yikes.  

So you think this guy isn't guilty of any crimes?  It's all because the girls wanted to stay?  Are you serious?

Sue


----------



## Beaglemom3 (May 10, 2013)

Yikes.




---


----------



## Passepartout (May 10, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> Don't get me wrong, i don't think the guy was innocent, he took advantage of naive women.  But, is it REALLY kidnapping if the girls WANTED to stay?



Leave it, Ride. Those women were held by fear, intimidation, manipulation, yes, misplaced affection too. That they wanted to go was one thing, but they may well have felt that one of them escaping would somehow be worse on the others left behind. 

Whole nations of people have been kept captive in the same way. Look no further than Cuba or N. Korea or the Soviet Union or post revolutionary China. Those people would tell you they LOVE their country/leaders and WANT to stay. Billions of people kept captive by fear- not just 3.

This kidnapper/murderer, child rapist who shows no remorse for his victims or activities deserves the same treatment he doled out to his captives.

Jim


----------



## DeniseM (May 10, 2013)

Ride - just stop - this is not one to stir the pot on.


----------



## ace2000 (May 10, 2013)

It's possible that Ride has some truth to what he's saying.  Look at Elizabeth Smart and many other examples.  For some reason, these captives are brainwashed into actually wanting to stay.  That could've easily been the case with these three for some period of time.  I'll grant in the end, the one that got away, definitely wanted to get away.

However, does that justify any of this?  NO!  If they "wanted" to stay as Ride asked, should the guy be fully prosecuted?  Without a doubt... YES!

This has got to be one of the saddest stories I have ever heard.


----------



## DeniseM (May 10, 2013)

Ride asked - "is it REALLY kidnapping if the girls WANTED to stay?"  That is completely out of line...and obviously just pot stirring.


----------



## Phydeaux (May 10, 2013)

It should be quite obvious that these poor girls/young women were brainwashed. 

There is a special place in hell for the evil beast that abducted them. Justice will be served. Perhaps not on this earth, but, rest assured, it will be served.


----------



## MuranoJo (May 11, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> I'll grant in the end, the one that got away, definitely wanted to get away.



And I wonder if the turning point for her was fear of what may lie ahead for her daughter if she didn't get her out.


----------



## DeniseM (May 11, 2013)

muranojo said:


> And I wonder if the turning point for her was fear of what may lie ahead for her daughter if she didn't get her out.



That is exactly what I was thinking - or maybe what was already starting to happen...


----------



## csxjohn (May 11, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> A small house, with the only thing seperating the women for freedom being, drywall, glass and/or plywood....
> 
> Let me ask the other ladies here....Do you REALLY think over a 10yr period there was NO chance for that girl to escape if she wanted to?  What if it was you....You don't think over 3,650 days you could have figured SOMETHING out?



We don't know the whole story.  Your questions are on everyone's mind. It seems odd that it took this long.  

We don't know people's motives for what they do and as pointed out we don't what people close to us are even doing.  

And of course the media will sensationalize everything so people watch their take on events.

Let's wait and see, maybe someday we'll know what happened and why.


----------



## Phydeaux (May 11, 2013)

I believe there's enough information already at hand to deduce what happened.

An evil predator abducted several girls, possibly developmentally challenged, imprisoned them, and brainwashed them. Not to mention executing other unspeakable acts upon them. 

May he rot in hell for eternity.


----------



## Ridewithme38 (May 11, 2013)

[What part of "STOP" don't you understand? - DeniseM]


----------



## Ridewithme38 (May 11, 2013)

Phydeaux said:


> I believe there's enough information already at hand to deduce what happened.
> 
> An evil predator abducted several girls, possibly developmentally challenged, imprisoned them, and brainwashed them. Not to mention executing other unspeakable acts upon them.
> 
> May he rot in hell for eternity.



None of this is facts, please guys, while the story that the girls told is sad, my first thought was hang and castrate the guy....In America we are innocent until proven guilty in the court of law....NOT, the court of public opinion


----------



## DeniseM (May 11, 2013)

Ride - your bias against women is disturbing and offensive.  Do you realize that every time we discuss a news story on TUG in which a woman is the victim, you post completely ridiculous theories about how the man who committed the crime might be innocent?  You have serious issues.


----------



## beejaybeeohio (May 11, 2013)

*Appalling*

As somebody from the Cleveland metro area, it is especially heartbreaking to think that these women were kept hostage so close to others, without opportunity for rescue until Monday. 

What they endured is appalling.  I'm also appalled by the comments of one of the Tuggers on this thread.

It's so easy to second-guess what actually occurred, or to imagine that in the same situation you could have escaped. When these types of conjectures are made public they only serve to compound the victimization of the victims.


----------



## Ridewithme38 (May 11, 2013)

DeniseM said:


> Ride - your bias against women is disturbing and offensive.  Do you realize that every time we discuss a news story on TUG in which a woman is the victim, you post completely ridiculous theories about how the man who committed the crime might be innocent?  You have serious issues.



I am currently fighting false charges that have led to a Temporary order of protection...actions that i never committed all because i requested to increase visitation with my daughter.....It's going to cost me atleast $1,500 and i did nothing outlined in the statement....There have been studies that show up to 40% of all orders of protection made by women are false(not to mention the 10+% of rape charges that are proven to be unfounded).  It is a common tactic and even recommended by women all over the internet that, as soon as a divorce is suggested, file a temporary order of protection to get the ex out of the house.

I AM the man, that man that has charges against him that everyone is attacking....i KNOW what it's like to be presumed guilty before even having my say in court....So, i'm sorry if i seem like i don't fall in with the public hanging before any facts come out, but i know what it's like to be presumed to be a monster and i WILL not join in and grab a pitchfork with the rest of the villagers


----------



## DeniseM (May 11, 2013)

Thank you for confirming your bias - DON'T post in this thread any more.


----------



## Tia (May 11, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I am currently fighting false ...



Sorry  but seems to be a grab for attention to me...


----------



## Ridewithme38 (May 11, 2013)

[This is your final warning -  your posts are offensive - next time you will get a vacation from TUG. - DeniseM]


----------



## Egret1986 (May 11, 2013)

*Thank you, Denise.*



Ridewithme38 said:


> [This is your final warning -  your posts are offensive - next time you will get a vacation from TUG. - DeniseM]



Agreed wholeheartedly.  These posts are extremely offensive.


----------



## laurac260 (May 11, 2013)

I do believe Ride has made a valid point, in regard to the situation of unsavory divorce/custody tactics that is.

  However....
He sooo picked the wrong thread to make it in.


----------



## Quadmaniac (May 11, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> See this is kinda what i thought when i first saw the story, this guy convinced the girls they wanted to stay, sort of Stockholm syndrome....It just seems to me, it would be VERY hard if not impossible to hold 3 people hostage for 10 years, unless they were somehow willing to stay.
> 
> Something happened and they snapped after 10 years and the neighbor heard them.  Don't get me wrong, i don't think the guy was innocent, he took advantage of naive women.  But, is it REALLY kidnapping if the girls WANTED to stay?



Wow! I don't know how your mind works, but I would think it would be extremely easy by looking at simple facts

1. He is physically larger and stronger than they are - it is not unheard of for "David to kill Goliath" but it would be extremely easy to see him dominating them

2. Don't do what he wants, you get the crap beaten out of you

3. Scream, you get the crap beaten out of you

4. Try to escape, you get the crap beaten out of you

5. Don't follow the rules, he with holds food, locks you in a box, don't allow you to go to the bathroom, rapes you, makes you do degrading things

6. After trying to disobey, at what point do you learn it is easier to do what he asks to avoid punishment after repeated tries ?

7. Nothing to do with these woman being naive - it is called FEAR

Maybe if your ex-wife is resisting giving you more "visitation" with your daughter this strongly to make "false" accusations (true or not) you might want to stand back and ask "Why is she so against it ?". There must be a reason she has chosen to take this approach as she does not want you around your child more. Have you looked at your own actions that could have contributed to this ? 

People don't react negatively to another unless there is something that has initiated it. If your posts are any insight into your mind and these are your "ideas or thoughts", as an outsider, I would be concerned about your exposure to children and females with your negative image of them. If you respond to your ex in this fashion as this thread, I would think that your life would be an uphill battle. 

It is easy to always blame others, but it is more difficult to see how our own actions may have caused these problems. We are always the last to accept blame for ourselves. When we change, people's reaction to us changes with it. Do you enjoy constant conflict ? Does that get you to where you want to go or be ? Would there not be an easier road to a destination further than where you have gone ? Maybe something to consider.


----------



## Ridewithme38 (May 11, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> It is easy to always blame others, but it is more difficult to see how our own actions may have caused these problems. We are always the last to accept blame for ourselves. When we change, people's reaction to us changes with it. Do you enjoy constant conflict ? Does that get you to where you want to go or be ? Would there not be an easier road to a destination further than where you have gone ? Maybe something to consider.



I'm not the same in real life as i am online,I'm painfully shy and withdrawn in real life its seems hard for me to even get a few words out in most situations because i'm worried about cutting someone off or offending them.  in real life I'm also extremely polite and well mannered...I actually have a fear of conflict(and heights), so find myself either shutting down when conversations like this happen or turning into the most agreeable person you've ever met, i often find my self trying to change subjects when an argument is happening around me. 

I know it's hard to tell this online, but, you'll never find me at a meet, or ever really even talk to me on the phone.....I've just never been able to express myself in real life the way i can online.....I wish i could, I'm an interesting person online, i've got stories to tell, when i'm typing them, an opinion on every topic when a computer screen is in front of me....but, put me in a crowd or even with a handful of people and you'll barely hear a peep out of me


----------



## Quadmaniac (May 11, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I'm not the same in real life as i am online,I'm painfully shy and withdrawn in real life its seems hard for me to even get a few words out in most situations because i'm worried about cutting someone off or offending them.  in real life I'm also extremely polite and well mannered...I actually have a fear of conflict(and heights), so find myself either shutting down when conversations like this happen or turning into the most agreeable person you've ever met, i often find my self trying to change subjects when an argument is happening around me.
> 
> I know it's hard to tell this online, but, you'll never find me at a meet, or ever really even talk to me on the phone.....I've just never been able to express myself in real life the way i can online.....I wish i could, I'm an interesting person online, i've got stories to tell, when i'm typing them, an opinion on every topic when a computer screen is in front of me....but, put me in a crowd or even with a handful of people and you'll barely hear a peep out of me



I have a client that I consult with that was very polite in person, but his emails were just completely inappropriate to others and his staff. When people feel oppressed, there is always a valve somewhere that allows the built up pressure to be released. For him, it was his emails, where he came off like a jackass. From analyzing his situation, I suggested he not to go buy an expensive $100,000 piece of equipment which he  did not need and turned around told his sales rep, that I specifically told him not to buy from him. His business was not busy and he felt his staff were slacking so he was eliminating lunch breaks. When I told him he was WAY WAY overpaying his staff based on the rest of the industry, he tried to cut the wages of his long term staff unilaterally like he was the ruler of the land. Many of his emails were very condesending and I explicitly told him that he does not send out emails without letting me review them first.

You may be very polite in person. Maybe you need to re-consider what you write by reading it again before pressing the send button to see how someone might interpret your message. If you are unsure, maybe send it to someone you trust to get their take on it before replying. Many times we are more "brave" online as we can hide behind the computer, but still we are all part of the same family and we should consider how our message comes across. Sometimes a little honey attracts more flies....food for thought.

As the years have gone by, I have drastically tried to moderate my responses to people and it has made a huge difference in how people have responded to me. I used to be in conflict with people at the drop of the hat as I was always "right". I have learned, sometime the hard way, there is maybe a better way to go about it and many times, the response that I get is mind blowing compared to what used to happen.

You know what they say in life, we are bound to repeat our mistakes over and over, with worse and worse consequences, until we learn what we were supposed to. It is a journey we must walk alone in, but if we fail to notice what is right in front of us, we will continue to walk in the endless loop till find the way out. We can expect for a different plant to grow if we keep planting the same seed.

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but maybe sometimes we have to question ourselves whether it makes logical sense and that our reasoning is sound before developing a conclusion based on it. Are we able to play devil's advocate on on our opinion ? Like I was saying, in these cases, maybe throw the concept or idea off a friend first and say, what do you think ? Obviously you have offended more than a few people with this thread, but after having the chance to reflect upon it, can you see where your opinion might have elicited this response or how you could have maybe moderated your posts ? No one is asking you not to be who you are, but sometimes our mouth or our fingers in this case works faster than our brain. Might be good to have someone to bounce things off of....


----------



## laurac260 (May 11, 2013)

These girls are free now, and they can now begin to repair themselves.  The perp will go rot in jail, or perhaps get the death penalty.  We'll all move on with our lives.  Many of the questions we have about this case will be answered, others never will be.

But the biggest unanswered question is, "How many more Amanda Berry's are out there?"


----------



## heathpack (May 11, 2013)

Quad is my new TUG hero!

H



Quadmaniac said:


> Wow! I don't know how your mind works, but I would think it would be extremely easy by looking at simple facts
> 
> 1. He is physically larger and stronger than they are - it is not unheard of for "David to kill Goliath" but it would be extremely easy to see him dominating them
> 
> ...


----------



## laurac260 (May 11, 2013)

Quadmaniac said:


> I have a client that I consult with that was very polite in person, but his emails were just completely inappropriate to others and his staff. When people feel oppressed, there is always a valve somewhere that allows the built up pressure to be released. For him, it was his emails, where he came off like a jackass. From analyzing his situation, I suggested he not to go buy an expensive $100,000 piece of equipment which he  did not need and turned around told his sales rep, that I specifically told him not to buy from him. His business was not busy and he felt his staff were slacking so he was eliminating lunch breaks. When I told him he was WAY WAY overpaying his staff based on the rest of the industry, he tried to cut the wages of his long term staff unilaterally like he was the ruler of the land. Many of his emails were very condesending and I explicitly told him that he does not send out emails without letting me review them first.
> 
> You may be very polite in person. Maybe you need to re-consider what you write by reading it again before pressing the send button to see how someone might interpret your message. If you are unsure, maybe send it to someone you trust to get their take on it before replying. Many times we are more "brave" online as we can hide behind the computer, but still we are all part of the same family and we should consider how our message comes across. Sometimes a little honey attracts more flies....food for thought.
> 
> ...



There is alot to be said for this.  I find myself guilty of these things too sometimes.  It IS easy to hide behind the computer.  It's also easy to get carried away with the temperament of the group, been there, done that.  

I run a facebook group that is about to hit 200 folks.  I am both the creator, and the admin, basically I set the tone for the group,  I have the CONTROL (If I choose to look at it that way, that is).   I made a conscious decision in the very beginning to NOT let my first reaction to things I might not agree with ALWAYS be my first response.  I also made a decision that my own opinion is NOT king, if I don't have personal experience in a subject than there is no need for me to interject, etc.   It's a forum that does not lend itself to contentious social debates, so keeping those in check is pretty easy, etc.  And also, most importantly, I see many of these folks IRL.   So, if I decide to be a pretentious know it all, I'll have to wear that badge out in public as well.  That makes a huge difference I think.   When you are anonymous you can be a horse's arse, and if you have second thoughts about what you wrote there's no serious reprecussions when you never see people in human flesh.  Such is the problem with internet forums sometimes.  

I probably DELETE as many things as I post, on any given forum, including my own facebook page (my personal one).   But I am also human, and can be given to bouts of "Someone is wrong on the internet, and I MUST CORRECT THEM!"   As a wise fellow here on TUG often says, "So it goes."


----------



## ricoba (May 11, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I'm not the same in real life as i am online,I'm painfully shy and withdrawn in real life its seems hard for me to even get a few words out in most situations because i'm worried about cutting someone off or offending them.  in real life I'm also extremely polite and well mannered...I actually have a fear of conflict(and heights), so find myself either shutting down when conversations like this happen or turning into the most agreeable person you've ever met, i often find my self trying to change subjects when an argument is happening around me.
> 
> I know it's hard to tell this online, but, you'll never find me at a meet, or ever really even talk to me on the phone.....I've just never been able to express myself in real life the way i can online.....I wish i could, I'm an interesting person online, i've got stories to tell, when i'm typing them, an opinion on every topic when a computer screen is in front of me....but, put me in a crowd or even with a handful of people and you'll barely hear a peep out of me



Look, we have our own Walter Mitty!


----------



## Phydeaux (May 11, 2013)

Yikes, when are Dr. Phil & Opra going to check in to comment?


----------



## pjrose (May 11, 2013)

laurac260 said:


> . . .
> I probably DELETE as many things as I post, on any given forum, including my own facebook page (my personal one).   . . .



I, too, often delete posts.  On this thread I created a post in reply to Denise's comment about her basement and the several follow-up posts, then deleted it as I decided it was too frivolous given the seriousness of the thread.  (I'm not saying Denise's and the follow-ups were frivolous - but that continuing in that vein would be.)

As to the comments above about innocent until prove guilty, I agree.  That principle is an important part of our system, (if sometimes not our culture, certainly not our immediate-news media culture).  No matter how horrible a given alleged perpetrator, we must remember that "alleged".  Neither we nor the media are judge, jury, or executioner.  Like many/most, I believe Castro is guilty, is a monster, should have the harshest penalty, etc.  But honestly, I have not and probably will not hear or see the actual evidence, and things might not be quite as they appear.  I suspect that things ARE as they appear, but they might not be.  

So, I'd rather focus on the women than the monster(s) who did this - they are free, and we hope will be able to rebuild their lives after these difficult, horrible, years.


----------



## spencersmama (May 11, 2013)

Has anyone read the book Room?  This case, the three abducted girls, reminded me of that book.  When I read Room, I thought that this kind of situation was pretty rare, but it seems that abduction and human trafficing is getting more and more prevalent.  

A couple of months ago, after hearing about another abuse or abduction case, I posted a question on facebook asking if we do enough in our society to protect the powerless.  I have 200-ish friends and had three of them private message me about severe abuse or abduction that happened to either themselves or a close member of their family while they were a child or teen.  I won't post any specific details, but the high number of specific responses really did startle me. Child abduction and child prostitution is much more common in in this country than I ever expected.  It also seemed to me that in each of the three situations, the perpetrator was someone that presented themselves as a trusted friend or caregiver.  

It's all so sad and tragic, and a part of me wishes I didn't know this problem existed.  It seems like unbearable trauma for the victims.  But part of me also wonders how I can learn from this to help prevent it from happening to young people in the future.  I'm not sure I even know how to do that.  I've heard many people say, "How could the neighbors not have known?"  Then I think of how many neighbors on my own street I've shared chit chat with at block parties but haven't been in their houses.  

I guess this post is all just sharing a philosophical stream of consciousness that has been going through my head the last few days, yet again.  I don't have answers besides listen to your intuition and pray that this never happens to anyone ever again. 

Just sharing my thoughts.  (And getting the thread back on topic.)


----------



## presley (May 11, 2013)

spencersmama said:


> A couple of months ago, after hearing about another abuse or abduction case, I posted a question on facebook asking if we do enough in our society to protect the powerless.  I have 200-ish friends and had three of them private message me about severe abuse or abduction that happened to either themselves or a close member of their family while they were a child or teen.  I won't post any specific details, but the high number of specific responses really did startle me.



I'm glad you brought that up.  It really isn't that uncommon.  I had many experiences, yes many, when I was a teen where a strange man would drive up next to me and offer to give me ride when I was walking or roller skating.  Even after I would say, "No thanks.  I'd rather walk," they would continue to drive slowly along next to me trying to talk me in to getting in the car.  It was very annoying and happened on the way to/from school, on the way to the beach and on the way a friend's house.  I remember one in particular, where the guy kept coming back for about a 2 mile walk.  In that case, I eventually went to a pay phone to call my mom for a ride.  She wasn't home, but I didn't see the guy again after he saw me using the phone.


----------



## pjrose (May 11, 2013)

presley said:


> I'm glad you brought that up.  It really isn't that uncommon.  I had many experiences, yes many, when I was a teen where a strange man would drive up next to me and offer to give me ride when I was walking or roller skating.  Even after I would say, "No thanks.  I'd rather walk," they would continue to drive slowly along next to me trying to talk me in to getting in the car.  It was very annoying and happened on the way to/from school, on the way to the beach and on the way a friend's house.  I remember one in particular, where the guy kept coming back for about a 2 mile walk.  In that case, I eventually went to a pay phone to call my mom for a ride.  She wasn't home, but I didn't see the guy again after he saw me using the phone.



How absolutely creepy and awful.  I hope those guys didn't eventually find other less savvy teens  

I had one not-nearly-so-creepy attempted issue about which I told my friend, my friend told her mother, her mother told my mother, and my mother contacted the authorities....turned out there had been several complaints in the area with the same description, they actually caught the guy, and he was sent away to prison for awhile - don't know how long.


----------



## laurac260 (May 12, 2013)

and then there's this... ?


Daughter of Cleveland abduction suspect slashed her baby's throat
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013...0WU20130508?feedName=OutloudFeed&feedType=RSS


----------



## Beaglemom3 (May 12, 2013)

I was riding my bike in Aiea, Hawaii where I lived near the Keaiwa Heiau. I was 21. I had a long ponytail at the time. A carload of men drove up alongside me and one said something to me - asking directions or something like that - not unusual in Hawaii because of tourists (I was now riding on the shoulder of the road), I slowed to understand what was being said and the one in the passenger seat leaned out and grabbed my ponytail. This continued for a minute or so (seemed like a lifetime) while still riding.

 I was able to hold onto my handle bars with my right hand and jab him in his eye with my left. Also, another car was coming up from behind them and he released his grip. By then, I had careened off of the shoulder and my bike flipped sideways. The car behind stopped with some nice ladies on their way to church. 

We did not get the license plate, but did provide a description of the car and man/men to the police. Unfortunately, it was a stolen car and the creeps were never captured. It is so easy to be unknowingly vulnerable especially as a female or child. We never think that it could "me" who could be grabbed, but it could be.

  I have never worn a ponytail again when riding my bike.




-


----------



## littlestar (May 12, 2013)

I read that Michelle Knight (the first kidnapping victim) may need facial reconstruction and that she has hearing loss from the severity of the beatings.  She was in the hospital the longest, too. I cannot imagine what those poor women went through.  

There are some really evil people in this world.


----------



## Tia (May 12, 2013)

spencersmama said:


> ...
> A couple of months ago, after hearing about another abuse or abduction case, I posted a question on facebook asking if we do enough in our society to protect the powerless.  I have 200-ish friends and had three of them private message me about severe abuse or abduction that happened to either themselves or a close member of their family while they were a child or teen.  I won't post any specific details, but the high number of specific responses really did startle me. Child abduction and child prostitution is much more common in in this country than I ever expected.  It also seemed to me that in each of the three situations, the perpetrator was someone that presented themselves as a trusted friend or caregiver.
> ...




Back when Kobe Bryant was in the news for being accused of rape in CO it was a topic between other female friends of mine, two of who had surprising stories of their own to tell re college athlete experiences...


----------



## geekette (May 13, 2013)

Ridewithme38 said:


> I'm not the same in real life as i am online,I'm painfully shy and withdrawn in real life its seems hard for me to even get a few words out in most situations because i'm worried about cutting someone off or offending them.  in real life I'm also extremely polite and well mannered...I actually have a fear of conflict(and heights), so find myself either shutting down when conversations like this happen or turning into the most agreeable person you've ever met, i often find my self trying to change subjects when an argument is happening around me.
> 
> I know it's hard to tell this online, but, you'll never find me at a meet, or ever really even talk to me on the phone.....I've just never been able to express myself in real life the way i can online.....I wish i could, I'm an interesting person online, i've got stories to tell, when i'm typing them, an opinion on every topic when a computer screen is in front of me....but, put me in a crowd or even with a handful of people and you'll barely hear a peep out of me



Be that as it may, it's no excuse for being a royal a$$ online.  There are lots of Tuggers I would like to meet in person but you are not one of them.  As far as I can tell, the person posting as Ridewithme38 is absolutely not someone I want in my life.  Who you are online is who I figure you are offline, no matter what you say, and I can get my fill of rudeness and offensive pot-stirring crap elsewhere, thanks.


----------



## beejaybeeohio (May 15, 2013)

*Castro pleading Not Guilty*

So in addition to inflicting many, many years of horrendous abuse on Michelle, Gina & Amanda, the kidnapper is pleading Not Guilty which will mean it's likely these women will be forced to testify against him in court.

I can only hope it's cathartic for the three, but fear that their recovery will be prolonged and their agony relived because of Castro's plea....


----------



## BevL (May 15, 2013)

beejaybeeohio said:


> So in addition to inflicting many, many years of horrendous abuse on Michelle, Gina & Amanda, the kidnapper is pleading Not Guilty which will mean it's likely these women will be forced to testify against him in court.
> 
> I can only hope it's cathartic for the three, but fear that their recovery will be prolonged and their agony relived because of Castro's plea....



If it's just an initial plea, it would be shocking if he pled anything else.  Lots of negotiations will no doubt be in play to try to strike a deal.  That would probably be best for all concerned, frankly.


----------



## ricoba (May 15, 2013)

beejaybeeohio said:


> So in addition to inflicting many, many years of horrendous abuse on Michelle, Gina & Amanda, the kidnapper is pleading Not Guilty ....



Sadly, when was the last time you actually heard of a criminal of a terrible crime like this, actually admit they were guilty of the crime they are charged with?


----------



## ace2000 (May 15, 2013)

BevL said:


> If it's just an initial plea, it would be shocking if he pled anything else.  Lots of negotiations will no doubt be in play to try to strike a deal.  That would probably be best for all concerned, frankly.



Exactly.  His guilty plea is a bargaining chip right now.  Personally, I'd be shocked if this goes to trial.


----------



## hypnotiq (May 15, 2013)

Exactly!

They will offer to take the death penalty off the table if he pleads guilty.


----------



## ricoba (May 15, 2013)

ace2000 said:


> Exactly.  His guilty plea is a bargaining chip right now.  Personally, I'd be shocked if this goes to trial.





hypnotiq said:


> Exactly!
> 
> They will offer to take the death penalty off the table if he pleads guilty.




But, wouldn't it be refreshing if just once, one of these slime balls, actually had the courage and fortitude to do the right thing and admit their guilt up front and accept the consequences?


----------



## DeniseM (May 15, 2013)

He has done the wrong thing his whole life - why would it change?


----------



## Tia (May 15, 2013)

http://news.yahoo.com/cleveland-women-held-captive-suffer-long-term-damage-022724049.html 

The limited details are awful, he deserves no mercy imo


----------



## hypnotiq (May 15, 2013)

ricoba said:


> But, wouldn't it be refreshing if just once, one of these slime balls, actually had the courage and fortitude to do the right thing and admit their guilt up front and accept the consequences?



Trust me, it makes me sick that he's gonna avoid the death penalty by pulling this [stuff]...


----------



## brigechols (May 15, 2013)

hypnotiq said:


> Trust me, it makes me sick that he's gonna avoid the death penalty by pulling this [stuff]...



I don't believe the crimes of kidnapping and rape are eligible for the death penalty in the state of Ohio.


----------



## Beaglemom3 (May 15, 2013)

brigechols said:


> I don't believe the crimes of kidnapping and rape are eligible for the death penalty in the state of Ohio.



Under Ohio law, probably aggravated murder related to the pregnancies . This should be interesting.

 Either way, he's a dead man walking.


----------



## dioxide45 (May 15, 2013)

brigechols said:


> I don't believe the crimes of kidnapping and rape are eligible for the death penalty in the state of Ohio.



They aren't eligible in any state.


----------



## laurac260 (May 15, 2013)

hypnotiq said:


> Trust me, it makes me sick that he's gonna avoid the death penalty by pulling this [stuff]...



If there's any truth in the notion of jailhouse justice, I'm thinking he will get his.  Maybe not for the women, but certainly for the pregnancies/babies.  That's my prediction anyway.


----------



## pjrose (May 15, 2013)

laurac260 said:


> If there's any truth in the notion of jailhouse justice, I'm thinking he will get his.  Maybe not for the women, but certainly for the pregnancies/babies.  That's my prediction anyway.



He'll likely be kept isolated for his protection.  Grrrrr.


----------



## MuranoJo (May 16, 2013)

IMO the death penalty is too easy.


----------



## Sea Six (Jul 26, 2013)

Today Ariel Castro was sentenced to life without parole PLUS 1000 years in exchange for a guilty plea.


----------



## DeniseM (Jul 26, 2013)

No trial - plead guilty.


----------



## x3 skier (Jul 26, 2013)

Sea Six said:


> Today Ariel Castro was sentenced to life without parole PLUS 1000 years in exchange for a guilty plea.



Wonder how it will feel like to Castro being somebody else's "toy" in the House of Many Doors. 

Cheers


----------



## dioxide45 (Jul 26, 2013)

Sea Six said:


> Today Ariel Castro was sentenced to life without parole PLUS 1000 years in exchange for a guilty plea.



I don't think he has officially been sentenced yet, just pleaded guilty. Though the terns of his agreement will mean he will never be out of prison.


----------



## BevL (Jul 26, 2013)

Death penalty off the table and I saw that the women were refusing to testify - this will spare them at least.

Not sure the death penalty wouldn't be easier than what he has in store - don't feel too sorry for him, that's for sure.


----------



## pedro47 (Jul 27, 2013)

Life in prison with 3 meals per day, television time, free medical care, companionship, prison guard protection and we the American tax payer are paying for this. good deal.


----------



## csxjohn (Sep 4, 2013)

*Castro found hung*

That didn't take long!

http://fox8.com/2013/09/04/ariel-castro-found-dead-in-jail-cell/


----------



## DaveNV (Sep 4, 2013)

csxjohn said:


> That didn't take long!
> 
> http://fox8.com/2013/09/04/ariel-castro-found-dead-in-jail-cell/




Makes me wonder if he did it himself, or if he had "help."

Dave


----------



## Phydeaux (Sep 4, 2013)

BMWguynw said:


> Makes me wonder if he did it himself, or if he had "help."
> 
> Dave



Jailhouse justice. First thing that crossed my mind. Good riddance.


----------



## Passepartout (Sep 4, 2013)

He (or with someone's help) saved the Ohio taxpayers a bundle, freed the victims from his memory (in time), and freed up space for another prisoner who might be rehabilitated. I repeat the earlier sentiment..... good riddance. Too bad he couldn't have done it pre-trial.

Jim


----------



## presley (Sep 4, 2013)

I would have been happy to help.


----------



## ricoba (Sep 4, 2013)

Passepartout said:


> He (or with someone's help) saved the Ohio taxpayers a bundle, freed the victims from his memory (in time), and freed up space for another prisoner who might be rehabilitated. I repeat the earlier sentiment..... good riddance. Too bad he couldn't have done it pre-trial.
> 
> Jim



Or too bad he didn't do it 20 years ago...


----------



## geekette (Sep 4, 2013)

too bad.

the barbarian in me wanted to see him get what he gave and isolation is hardly the roughest part of it.

Delusional coward.  the world is now a better place.

But why fight the death penalty if you were gonna bring your death on anyway?


----------



## x3 skier (Sep 4, 2013)

Passepartout said:


> He (or with someone's help) saved the Ohio taxpayers a bundle, freed the victims from his memory (in time), and freed up space for another prisoner who might be rehabilitated. I repeat the earlier sentiment..... good riddance. Too bad he couldn't have done it pre-trial.
> 
> Jim



+1 In addition, his lawyers are now out of the feeding trough as well.

Cheers


----------



## Passepartout (Sep 4, 2013)

x3 skier said:


> +1 In addition, his lawyers are now out of the feeding trough as well.



They are getting ink griping "We thought he'd be safe in prison." Safe from what/who? They maintain he was mentally ill. Well, duh.....


----------



## Patri (Sep 4, 2013)

Has anyone shed a tear?
No one should.


----------



## presley (Sep 4, 2013)

Patri said:


> Has anyone shed a tear?
> No one should.



Well, maybe his mom and his older kids.


----------



## geekette (Sep 4, 2013)

presley said:


> Well, maybe his mom and his older kids.



From the article I read, a female relative did cry.  They listed her name, a Castro-hyphenate, but did not specify the relation.  

His family ended up victimized in a way, imo.  I feel bad for them as they didn't get much chance to absorb the magnitude his horrific crimes and later just ask him Why, so they were robbed of closure, quite aside from being implicated by association in some regards (I hope that part was already over for them).  I think they all truly Knew Nothing and are as devastated as the rest of us, but worse because he duped them all those years.  They also have to live with the thought that maybe they Should Have Known, should have been able to get those girls out long ago and ratted out a sick bastard, family or no.

It would take time for them to heal up enough to face him, to ask him whatever they needed to.  They have to live with his crimes without answers and that is far worse for them than for the rest of us.  He's a monster and they have the tough luck of being related.

I just kinda wish he woulda been beaten to a bloody pulp before he got the chance to kill himself.  But at least now they can yank his brain and figure out what his deal was.


----------



## Phydeaux (Sep 5, 2013)

geekette said:


> But at least now they can yank his brain and figure out what his deal was.



No, I highly doubt that's going to happen. *Evil* doesn't display on any imaging device or render itself in any lab finding. And I doubt it ever will.


----------



## geekette (Sep 5, 2013)

Phydeaux said:


> No, I highly doubt that's going to happen. *Evil* doesn't display on any imaging device or render itself in any lab finding. And I doubt it ever will.



Not true.  Seems to me that plenty was found in examining (oh crap, what was the cannibal guy that killed and ate people?  I'm thinking he was in a northern prison when he died).   

There can be neurological causes for such antisocial behavior and it's possible that parts of his brain were underdeveloped or otherwise damaged.  

I do agree that probably Evil is not a detection category.


----------



## Phydeaux (Sep 5, 2013)

geekette said:


> Not true.  Seems to me that *plenty was found *in examining (oh crap, what was the cannibal guy that killed and ate people?  I'm thinking he was in a northern prison when he died).
> 
> *There can be neurological causes for such antisocial behavior *and it's possible that parts of his brain were underdeveloped or otherwise damaged.
> 
> I do agree that probably Evil is not a detection category.



Got a few examples? 

You seem rather quick to dismiss the presence of evil. I'm not, and I've worked in the medical field for more years than I care to admit. 

Let's face it, there are evil monsters that live among us. And in the vast majority of cases have absolutely nothing clinically pathologic in their brains. For every reference you can provide that had a clinical abnormality that someone feels caused their evil behaviour, there are countless others that had nothing clinically pathologic in their brains. And even if they _did_ have a brain pathology, how will anyone prove it caused them to act improperly? There are vast numbers of people walking around with brain pathology that are decent, law abiding functioning citizens.


----------



## T_R_Oglodyte (Sep 5, 2013)

If a person can, by their own actions, become a saint then a person can, by their own actions, become a demon.

If we follow the logic being offered here, we should be examining the brains of deceased saints to find out what made them good. In fact since "good" is what we want to promote and enhance, the logic to examine their brains would be even more compelling than the logic for examining the brains of the depraved.


----------



## DaveNV (Sep 5, 2013)

geekette said:


> (oh crap, what was the cannibal guy that killed and ate people?  I'm thinking he was in a northern prison when he died).



Jeffrey Dahmer.  But he was beaten to death by another prisoner, as I recall. Another socially maladjusted case.

Dave


----------



## geekette (Sep 5, 2013)

BMWguynw said:


> Jeffrey Dahmer.  But he was beaten to death by another prisoner, as I recall. Another socially maladjusted case.
> 
> Dave



DAHMER!!!  Thank you, it was bugging me that the only name I could come up with was a local monster, Baumeister.


----------



## Passepartout (Sep 5, 2013)

*Einstein's brain*



T_R_Oglodyte said:


> If a person can, by their own actions, become a saint then a person can, by their own actions, become a demon.
> 
> If we follow the logic being offered here, we should be examining the brains of deceased saints to find out what made them good. In fact since "good" is what we want to promote and enhance, the logic to examine their brains would be even more compelling than the logic for examining the brains of the depraved.



Following along this same line of thinking, Albert Einstein's brain was removed from his body within hours of his demise. Here's the story, according to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein's_brain 

Good vs evil. Smart vs dumb. Etc. vs etc.


----------



## DaveNV (Sep 5, 2013)

geekette said:


> DAHMER!!!  Thank you, it was bugging me that the only name I could come up with was a local monster, Baumeister.




I know, right?  It's an even sadder commentary on our society that we have so many terrible examples to choose from.  

Dave


----------



## Phydeaux (Sep 5, 2013)

Ah yes, Jeff Dahmer. The picture example of evil at its worst. An intelligent, cunning, and extremely deceptive person that calmly invited several police officers into his apartment, and convinced them the drugged young man running away from him in the street was his lover. Unfortunately, the police didn't look in his refrigerator, but why in the world would they? Within several hours that young man was murdered at the hands of Dahmer.

Happened in MKE, my home town. He fooled Milwaukees finest.

Police that are trained to see what others can't see, and pick up on ques of deceit. Nothing wrong with Dahmers brain. Just plain evil.


----------



## geekette (Sep 5, 2013)

Phydeaux said:


> Ah yes, Jeff Dahmer. The picture example of evil at its worst. An intelligent, cunning, and extremely deceptive person that calmly invited several police officers into his apartment, and convinced them the drugged young man running away from him in the street was his lover. Unfortunately, the police didn't look in his refrigerator, but why in the world would they? Within several hours that young man was murdered at the hands of Dahmer.
> 
> Happened in MKE, my home town. He fooled Milwaukees finest.
> 
> Police that are trained to see what others can't see, and pick up on ques of deceit. Nothing wrong with Dahmers brain. Just plain evil.



Milwaukee!  Yes, north!

That was one freaky dude.  stuff of nightmares.

There was something with him, tho, I forget if he was alcohol syndrome baby or something like that, but I thought they studied him and found that he had  been unable to develop a conscience, like that part of the brain was damaged.


----------



## geekette (Sep 5, 2013)

BMWguynw said:


> I know, right?  It's an even sadder commentary on our society that we have so many terrible examples to choose from.
> 
> Dave



It's incredibly disturbing!

and these are only the ones we know about.


----------



## Phydeaux (Sep 5, 2013)

geekette said:


> Milwaukee!  Yes, north!
> 
> That was one freaky dude.  stuff of nightmares.
> 
> There was something with him, tho, I forget if he was alcohol syndrome baby or something like that, but I thought they studied him and found that he had  been unable to develop a conscience, like that part of the brain was damaged.



Freaky dude, indeed..

Try, try again. No, he was just evil.


----------



## stugy (Sep 6, 2013)

do you see evil and psychopathic as one and the same?  Curious, because many psychiatrists, therapists etc have diagnosed Dahmer, serial killers and the pair that did the home invasion in Connecticut as psychopathic personality.  Historically they abused and killed animals as children.  They have NO conscience
Pat


----------



## stugy (Sep 6, 2013)

And I forgot most recently, the young man who shot and killed all those children in Connecticut, evil or without a conscience (superego in psychiatric language)


----------

