# Marriott and ILG



## Tucsonadventurer

*Moderator Notes:
1. Acquisition announced 4/30/18; see post #29 herein.
2. Open threads in the two other forums directly impacted by this acquisition here -
Marriott Vacations Worldwide, Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) purchase of Interval Leisure Group (ILG) discussion!
Vistana Signature Experiences, Marriott Vacations Worldwide to Acquire ILG to Create a Leading Global Provider of Premier Vacation

***************************

So if Marriott does acquire ILG, still rumor but looking more probable, I wonder what that will mean for folks that purchased  HPP. Also curious how Marriott will proceed with HPP. Of course that's only one of many questions. Will be interesting to see what evolves.


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## Sapper

I have not been overly impressed with the Marriott system.  I'm sure that the individual properties are nice, but what Marriott management has done to their system has kept me from buying in.  Looking at what they have done over the past five to ten years seems to only benefit their bottom line at the expense of the owners.

I seem to remember something along the lines of Hyatt being allowed to have their names removed from the HRC resorts if another named hotel company took over the system.  My guess is the HRC resorts will either be spun off into their own system again (lowest probability) through to integration into the Marriott system and re-branding with current owners loosing access to internal Hyatt trades unless we "buy in" to a merged points system (basically what they did to their own system a few years ago).  If the latter happens, HPP may be rolled into the Marriott points system to create some form of merged points system.  Expect maintenance fees to increase at what ever the maximum possible rate might be with out causing a group to form a class action lawsuit against Marriott.

Of course, this is all speculation... speculation on rumors... so, hopefully just a bad dream.


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## lizap

Tucsonadventurer said:


> So if Marriott does acquire ILG, still rumor but looking more probable, I wonder what that will mean for folks that purchased  HPP. Also curious how Marriott will proceed with HPP. Of course that's only one of many questions. Will be interesting to see what evolves.



OK, I found the latest news.  If it happens, my guess is HPP is history.  Current HRC owners will be given a chance to convert to whatever for a nominal fee. I'm for anything that would give us better leadership, or better yet, ANY LEADERSHIP..


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## Sapper

lizap said:


> OK, I found the latest news.  If it happens, my guess is HPP is history.  Current HRC owners will be given a chance to convert to whatever for a nominal fee. I'm for anything that would give us better leadership, or better yet, ANY LEADERSHIP..



I'm more concerned the new "leadership" may just see us as fat cows they can lead to a slaughter by increasing our maintenance fees and making ownership less desirable if we are unwilling to buy in to what ever program they have thought up this year.  I bought into the Hyatt system because I liked it, so I'm probably not going to be thrilled if it changes into a Marriott system.


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## mjm1

Even if they leave the systems as they are, it would be a nice benefit if they provide a cross-over system that would allow Hyatt, Vistana and Marriott owners to have internal access to each other's inventory. That would make more locations available without having to go through II. Of course, II would lose out on exchange fees, so there would have to be provisions to offset that.

This will be interesting to see how it develops. I am glad to see that ILG is not pursuing anything with Diamond at this point.

Best regards.

Mike


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## WalnutBaron

mjm1 said:


> I am glad to see that ILG is not pursuing anything with Diamond at this point.



That would be an unmitigated nightmare.


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## Sicnarf

So, what benefit does HPP offers compared to HRC?  Ability to book all resorts 12 months out based on availability?


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## Sapper

Sicnarf said:


> So, what benefit does HPP offers compared to HRC?  Ability to book all resorts 12 months out based on availability?



You get to pay substantially more for the initial buy in, and pay a higher average maintenance fee... oh, and as we recently discovered, with HPP you are charged more points for the same stay.  All major benefits... to Hyatt/II.


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## Sicnarf

Sapper said:


> You get to pay substantially more for the initial buy in, and pay a higher average maintenance fee... oh, and as we recently discovered, with HPP you are charged more points for the same stay.  All major benefits... to Hyatt/II.


These are benefits to Hyatt indeed!  But what do I get in exchange? What's the value proposition for converting to HPP?


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## Sapper

Sicnarf said:


> These are benefits to Hyatt indeed!  But what do I get in exchange? What's the value proposition for converting to HPP?



That's the question we have all been asking since they failed to make ANY announcement of this new program.  The best we can come up with is a potentially longer booking window which in reality does not mean much because of how HRC works, and being able to stay any number of days as opposed to the fixed 2, 3, 4, 7 HRC has.  However, it should be noted that when using HPP for these stays, there is a housekeeping fee added that HRC does not have.  In other words, more benefits to Hyatt / II.  It also allows any Hyatt location to make sales for all Hyatt locations as opposed to just the local property... sorry, that is just another benefit to Hyatt / II.


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## Sicnarf

So, I converted 6 weeks to 6 Sheraton Flex VOIs (pure points) for a considerable amount of money.  In exchange, I get home resort privilege in 6 resorts (up to 1 year advance booking).  If HPP provides similar flexibility to several desirable resorts, I certainly would be interested.  I got 2 Pinon Pointe resales primarily for exchange and if I get 6 months leg up to book Aspen or Beaver Creek, I'll be happy to join HPP since it would most likely be cheaper than buying directly from Hyatt.


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## Sapper

Sicnarf said:


> So, I converted 6 weeks to 6 Sheraton Flex VOIs (pure points) for a considerable amount of money.  In exchange, I get home resort privilege in 6 resorts (up to 1 year advance booking).  If HPP provides similar flexibility to several desirable resorts, I certainly would be interested.  I got 2 Pinon Pointe resales primarily for exchange and if I get 6 months leg up to book Aspen or Beaver Creek, I'll be happy to join HPP since it would most likely be cheaper than buying directly from Hyatt.



Nothing in BC is part of HPP.  Your maintenance fees will skyrocket from the low Pinon Pointe fees.  Strongly suggest you take a close look at the buy in cost (if I am remembering correctly, $20 per point) and maintenance fee (cant remember the fee), and you can only buy the HPP from Hyatt.  Good luck.


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## bdh

Sapper said:


> The best we can come up with is a potentially longer booking window which in reality does not mean much because of how HRC works, and being able to stay any number of days as opposed to the fixed 2, 3, 4, 7 HRC has.  However, it should be noted that when using HPP for these stays, there is a housekeeping fee added that HRC does not have.  In other words, more benefits to Hyatt / II.  It also allows any Hyatt location to make sales for all Hyatt locations as opposed to just the local property... sorry, that is just another benefit to Hyatt / II.



There's been a wide variety of comments/opinions here on TUG regarding the HPP booking window - however from everything I've read on the topic in Hyatt literature & rules and from attending an HPP sales presentation, HPP's *only* booking window advantage over HRC owners is for HPP inventory (HPP has a 6 month jump over HRC owners on HPP Trust inventory).  That said, that's not much of an advantage at the moment as every Hyatt property that the HPP Trust owns units at are existing HRC locations - so there is currently no property that HRC owners are excluded from.  However there are Hyatt properties that HPP members are excluded from - Hawaii, both Beaver Creeks, High Sierra, Northstar, Siesta Key and Breckenridge. 

Hyatt is building new buildings/units at Wild Oak and Coconut Plantation and those new buildings will be exclusive to HPP members - which I think is great that they'll have their own buildings there (that will mitigate the HRC/HPP competition in the current buildings for units/weeks).  Expect HPP would have exclusive access to the rumored new Key West property if that should become reality - again, great as that will relieve the HRC/HPP competition for weeks/units at Sunset Harbor.  From my perspective, until HPP starts to add new resort locations, there are very few reasons for an HRC owner to buy HPP.



Sapper said:


> Your maintenance fees will skyrocket from the low Pinon Pointe fees.



Why would the Pinon Pointe maintenance fees skyrocket?


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## NWTRVLRS

Because HPP maintenance fees are a lot higher.


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## Sapper

bdh said:


> There's been a wide variety of comments/opinions here on TUG regarding the HPP booking window - however from everything I've read on the topic in Hyatt literature & rules and from attending an HPP sales presentation, HPP's *only* booking window advantage over HRC owners is for HPP inventory (HPP has a 6 month jump over HRC owners on HPP Trust inventory).  That said, that's not much of an advantage at the moment as every Hyatt property that the HPP Trust owns units at are existing HRC locations - so there is currently no property that HRC owners are excluded from.  However there are Hyatt properties that HPP members are excluded from - Hawaii, both Beaver Creeks, High Sierra, Northstar, Siesta Key and Breckenridge.
> 
> Hyatt is building new buildings/units at Wild Oak and Coconut Plantation and those new buildings will be exclusive to HPP members - which I think is great that they'll have their own buildings there (that will mitigate the HRC/HPP competition in the current buildings for units/weeks).  Expect HPP would have exclusive access to the rumored new Key West property if that should become reality - again, great as that will relieve the HRC/HPP competition for weeks/units at Sunset Harbor.  From my perspective, until HPP starts to add new resort locations, there are very few reasons for an HRC owner to buy HPP.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would the Pinon Pointe maintenance fees skyrocket?



Right, as I said, "potentially longer booking window which does not mean much because of how HRC works."

Sorry, I should have been more clear. The total maintenance fee bill with the HPP included will sky rocket in comparison to what he has been paying on just Piñon Pointe.  The fees on the Piñon units will remain unchanged.


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## bdh

Sapper said:


> The total maintenance fee bill with the HPP included will sky rocket in comparison to what he has been paying on just Piñon Pointe.  The fees on the Piñon units will remain unchanged.



Now I understand the comment.  Based on what I'm seeing/hearing, if an HRC owner buys into HPP, there are two options on what they can do with their deeded HRC weeks.

Option A: HRC owner retains their Pinon Pointe deeded weeks and has the annual option of converting that year's HRC ownership to HPP points.  They would pay MF on their 660 HPP points (assuming they bought the minimum) and pay MF on the Pinon Pointe HRC deeded weeks.
Option B: HRC owner turns their Pinon Pointe deeded weeks over to HPP to permanently convert the HRC weeks/points into HPP points.  They would pay MF based on the number of HPP points owned.
Not sure why any HRC owner would elect Option B as it has no benefit whatsoever to them, however here's where their MF cost would dramatically jump as HPP MF is solely based on number of points owned.  The size of the increase would be a function of the point value of their deeded week/s - 1300 up to 2200 points.


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## Kal

There is still some uncertainty about HPP maintenance fees.  If an HRC owner elects to deposit an HRC unit for a single year, the MF would have been paid to HRC prior to that decision point.  It would be a challenge to have to pay the HPP MF again for that same unit.  Of course if an HRC owner transfers the unit to HPP on a permanent basis, the HPP MF would be much higher going forward.  But this issue still exists for that point of initial transfer.

With regard to the booking window, an HRC unit can be booked 12 months in advance based upon availability.  Same as HPP.  The key word is "availability".  For HPP, given the absence of units deposited into the system, the demand for high quality units at 12 months would be as high or higher than HRC.  Thus that "advantage" is all huckster speak.


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## bdh

Kal said:


> There is still some uncertainty about HPP maintenance fees.  If an HRC owner elects to deposit an HRC unit for a single year, the MF would have been paid to HRC prior to that decision point.  It would be a challenge to have to pay the HPP MF again for that same unit.  Of course if an HRC owner transfers the unit to HPP on a permanent basis, the HPP MF would be much higher going forward.  But this issue still exists for that point of initial transfer.
> .



Payment of MF would be based on ownership - whoever's name is on the deed, pays the bill.  With HPP, Hyatt's name is on the deed, Hyatt pays the MF and is reimbursed (plus a small "handling fee" - pun intended as HPP buyers are being "handled" IMHO) by the HPP member.  With HRC, Joe Fufnick's name is on the deed, Joe pays the MF.

If Joe Fufnick HRC owner is also an HPP buyer going the above path of Option A (retains HRC deed), Joe would pay two separate MF's - one directly to Hyatt for the deeded week and one indirectly to Hyatt thru HPP for HPP Trust points owned.   

If Joe Fufnick HRC owner is also an HPP buyer going the above path of Option B (giving HRC deed to HPP to permanently convert HRC weeks to HPP points), Joe would pay one MF to HPP for total number of HPP Trust points owned.


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## Kal

The point I'm making is strictly limited to the initial transfer.  Let's assume the HRC MF was paid in December.  Then during the first 12 weeks of the new year, that HRC unit was transferred to HPP.  At that point MF would be due for the minimum 660 HPP points.  However, if it was a permanent transfer for say a 2200 point HRC unit, the HPP account in January would total 2860.  Then the question is does the HPP member pay MF for the additional 2200 HPP points?


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## bdh

Kal said:


> The point I'm making is strictly limited to the initial transfer.  Let's assume the HRC MF was paid in December.  Then during the first 12 weeks of the new year, that HRC unit was transferred to HPP.  At that point MF would be due for the minimum 660 HPP points.  However, if it was a permanent transfer for say a 2200 point HRC unit, the HPP account in January would total 2860.  Then the question is does the HPP member pay MF for the additional 2200 HPP points?



The MF payment on Option B in year one def gets into some "dirty math" as some HRC properties the MF is set up in a "paid ahead" scenario while some HRC properties the MF is set up in a "paid in arrears" scenario.  Depending on what HRC property is being permanently converted to HPP points, its possible there could be a double whammy of MF in year one.  But after year one, there wouldn't be any double hits on MF as it all straight forward MF on number of HPP points owned.


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## dioxide45

bdh said:


> If Joe Fufnick HRC owner is also an HPP buyer going the above path of Option A (retains HRC deed), Joe would pay two separate MF's - one directly to Hyatt for the deeded week and one indirectly to Hyatt thru HPP for HPP Trust points owned.


Really, wouldn't the deeded week MF go to the HOA through Hyatt? For the trust HPP, the MF goes to the trust, there are additional fees included in that MF to cover the costs of operating the trust. Then the trust pays out the MF for the deeded weeks that are owned by the trust to the individual HOAs. In the end the HOA is who gets the MFs and there are management fees that are retained by Hyatt.


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## scsu_hockey_fan

Sapper said:


> You get to pay substantially more for the initial buy in, and pay a higher average maintenance fee... oh, and as we recently discovered, with HPP you are charged more points for the same stay.  All major benefits... to Hyatt/II.


I believe the number of points required for the same stay is the same. On the example give on the other thread it was easy to discover that the weeks had different start dates by one day, a Sunday check in vs. Saturday check in. Im referring to the ownership week check in, not the reservation check in dates. There is a change from silver to bronze season during the reservation dates given. Please see details on other thread for further clarification. Thanks.


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## ivywag

Sapper said:


> Right, as I said, "potentially longer booking window which does not mean much because of how HRC works."
> 
> Sorry, I should have been more clear. The total maintenance fee bill with the HPP included will sky rocket in comparison to what he has been paying on just Piñon Pointe.  The fees on the Piñon units will remain unchanged.
> 
> I think that there is a slight reservations advantage to HPP. HPP 2019 points are deposited on Jan 1, 2018.  HRC members points for 2019 are deposited as the HRPP becomes available during 2018.  Thus, any unit that becomes available early in the year could only be booked by an HPP member(they have their points already) or an HRC member who has an HRPP that begins early in the year.


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## Kal

dioxide45 said:


> Really, wouldn't the deeded week MF go to the HOA through Hyatt? For the trust HPP, the MF goes to the trust, there are additional fees included in that MF to cover the costs of operating the trust. Then the trust pays out the MF for the deeded weeks that are owned by the trust to the individual HOAs. In the end the HOA is who gets the MFs and there are management fees that are retained by Hyatt.


What's interesting is the breakdown of the MF.  Included is the Interval and HRC Club fees.  Then for HPP you get hit for the Interval and HRC Club fee plus the HPP Trust fee.  If you own two units, everything gets doubled.  If you examine the details of the MF the actual operating costs for the unit and property tax are not too bad.  All the rest is layer upon layer of Hyatt fees.


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## Sapper

scsu_hockey_fan said:


> I believe the number of points required for the same stay is the same. On the example give on the other thread it was easy to discover that the weeks had different start dates by one day, a Sunday check in vs. Saturday check in. Im referring to the ownership week check in, not the reservation check in dates. There is a change from silver to bronze season during the reservation dates given. Please see details on other thread for further clarification. Thanks.



The image from the other thread has the start date as the same, but the points are different.

LINK:
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?attachments/676f44c0-5e27-4b2f-9f50-402c30baf8e9-png.6205/


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## alexadeparis

That’s correct, I posted that finding in the other thread. Everything should have been the same but wasn’t, and another poster did a mock 11 night reservation that had significantly more points required under HPP than two separate 7 and 4 night reservations under HRC. I am not sure if it’s a bug or a “feature” of HPP, but either way, I won’t be buying. I don’t think enough attention is being paid to this “Marriott” style Points skim.


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## taffy19

mjm1 said:


> Even if they leave the systems as they are, it would be a nice benefit if they provide a cross-over system that would allow Hyatt, Vistana and Marriott owners to have internal access to each other's inventory. That would make more locations available without having to go through II. Of course, II would lose out on exchange fees, so there would have to be provisions to offset that.
> 
> This will be interesting to see how it develops. I am glad to see that ILG is not pursuing anything with Diamond at this point.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Mike


I agree but what are Diamond Resorts up to next?


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## scsu_hockey_fan

alexadeparis said:


> That’s correct, I posted that finding in the other thread. Everything should have been the same but wasn’t, and another poster did a mock 11 night reservation that had significantly more points required under HPP than two separate 7 and 4 night reservations under HRC. I am not sure if it’s a bug or a “feature” of HPP, but either way, I won’t be buying. I don’t think enough attention is being paid to this “Marriott” style Points skim.


I did see the 11 night mock stay you were referring too. I'm curious if the dates were "exactly" the same. Appears the original post has been deleted. If the four nights was switched on one to before or after the full week I can see where there could be that different if you change seasons from silver to gold, or gold to silver. I looked at the points chart and it was a silver week from the Hrc and 4 night mid week in silver to get that point total. For some reason the 4 nights in the hpp example would have had to been gold to get that point total. A bug? By hyatt design? Or the mock stay had the 4 nights before the full week on one and after on the other causing a change in seasons?  It doesn't make sense. The points charts appear perfectly overlaid when comparing them. Maybe perhaps the person(s) who programed the HPC did a bad job programming in the dates to match up correctly with the required points based on the points chart and made some errors along the way and was in a hurry?


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## Kal

Buckle up your seatbelts as Marriott is indeed acquiring ILG.  It will definitely be interesting to see how Marriott treats the HPP program.


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## NWTRVLRS

Thanks for the update Kal!  We are at Pinon Pointe right now and actually heading into an owners update in less than 3 hours...  let us know if there are any specific questions you want us to ask


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## NWTRVLRS

And here is an article about it: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-agrees-to-acquire-ilg-for-about-4-7-billion


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## heathpack

Kal said:


> Buckle up your seatbelts as Marriott is indeed acquiring ILG.  It will definitely be interesting to see how Marriott treats the HPP program.



Hopefully they’ll make it better.

They did an ok job with the Marriott points system, I think.

But the trend is to try to destroy the resale market for their product, to make points worthless as resales.  

The Sheraton and Westin Flex products: ugh.

I hope Hyatt shakes out closer to the Marriott model than the Starwood model. We shall see.


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## taffy19

What will happen to the Hyatt Residence Club name if this goes through?


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## Kal

NWTRVLRS said:


> Thanks for the update Kal!  We are at Pinon Pointe right now and actually heading into an owners update in less than 3 hours...  let us know if there are any specific questions you want us to ask


I would press them again on the request list for detailed specifics.


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## Kal

taffy19 said:


> What will happen to the Hyatt Residence Club name if this goes through?


Here is the media quote:
_"The combined company will be the global licensee of seven upper-upscale and luxury vacation brands using the Marriott, Ritz-Carlton, Sheraton, Westin, St. Regis and Hyatt names."_

This tells me the naming convention will be the same as under ILG.  They are just renting the name from Hyatt so as to depict a level of quality associated with Hyatt.  As always they will say there will be no management change in the HRC/HPP.  But once they figure out the quality of their performance in producing the HPP (and its huge success) I would hope some of those heads will roll and go find opportunities elsewhere.


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## Kal

I suspect Marriott will offer members in their points program a fantastic opportunity to trade into the HPP.  Cost will probably be points and substantial cash.  Let's see if they learned anything from the HRC offer of $13K to pay to play.


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## Sapper

Well, shucks.  I'm a little concerned about how little ol' Hyatt will be treated in this new mega-timeshare-opoly.  I'm not thrilled with how Marriott has treated their owners over the last decade.  Doing things which increase their bottom line at the expense of current and future owners.  This is why I bought Hyatt in the first place, I liked their system.  This is also why, when looking for a second timeshare, I passed on Marriott (ended up with a Hilton, I must like "H" properties).  I know it is too soon to know what changes may come, so we are really just speculating at this point.   Guess I need to go find a beer and relax.


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## taffy19

Thank you, Kal.  It is a kind of ironic that the Marriott Resort and the Hyatt Residence Club are next door to each other on Ka’anapali Beach.  Both are very nice resorts in a great location.  We are so relieved that this merger isn't going through now.

Marriott knows what they are doing and most people seem to be happy in *either program *_(owners who still own Legacy weeks but are enrolled in the DC Club and Trust Points' owners who have a more flexible program yet.)_

More good news is the tentatively scheduled restoration of Ka'anapali beach starting in the Fall of 2019.  We received this letter in the mail recently from the Maui Ocean Club.  Why didn't we receive this notice from the Hyatt Residence Club or I may have missed it.

There was quite some beach erosion on this side of Black Rock too that I never noticed last year.  On the other side of Black Rock it was last year already.  They need to do something about it if they want the tourists to keep on coming back like on Waikiki Beach.

PS. Edit to add the following words to the bolded sentence because that is what I meant.


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## Sapper

Yeah... so I just read through the press release to investors.  The language in the release is very heavy on the reduce costs while increasing profits, and light on the make a better system for our owners.


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## lizap

I fail to see how MVC could be any worse than ILG.  At least Marriott is a class act and has good leadership. I'm just surprised Marriott paid so much for ILG.


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## ivywag

Kal said:


> Buckle up your seatbelts as Marriott is indeed acquiring ILG.  It will definitely be interesting to see how Marriott treats the HPP program.


It'll be even more interesting to see how they treat HRC!!!


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## Sapper

Marriott has nice properties, I'll give them that.  However, owners pay high maintenance fees for them (I would say higher than comparable Hyatt properties), your response is we all pay high maintenance fees.  Ok, fair enough.  Marriott came up with this points thing a while back.  So, my understanding is they ended their internal trading and made it so an owner prior to 2010 could buy in to the points program, or trade through II.  THEN, any new owner who buys after 2010 must use II to trade.  To me this devalues the owner (original and future).  OK, so buy "points"... fine, but to buy resale, the new owner must pay Marriott a $2 per point fee.  This buy in fee only hurts current and future owners.  The only reason they do this is to pad their bottom line at the expense of current and future owners.  I don't like it, which is why I did not buy in to their program.


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## Sapper

ivywag said:


> It'll be even more interesting to see how they treat HRC!!!



Which is why I'm a bit concerned.


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## WalnutBaron

One thing is for sure: we HRC owners will be on the lookout for how any changes will affect the owners either positively or negatively. Sapper's post regarding the press release is not encouraging, but let's also remember that that release was meant to communicate to shareholders. Eventually, Marriott will be communicating with us HRC owners, and both the tone and the content of that letter will be very interesting.


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## WalnutBaron

Press release also indicates that Marriott expects to complete the acquisition "in the second half of 2018". That's quick. They apparently have no concerns about regulatory interference on this one.


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## bdh

When the Marriott press release includes the statement of "_With respect to its Hyatt business, the combined company will have rights to develop, market and sell under the Hyatt Vacation Ownership programs_", it sounds like HRC will remain a separate brand/entity and there may actually be new properties added to the HRC brand.  While HRC owners have heard about new properties being added to the system for the past 10 years, this could be the best chance for that to really happen - granted, to have access to them you'd have to buy into HPP.   I've got time to sit and watch to see how it unfolds, just wont hold my breath.


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## Sapper

WalnutBaron said:


> One thing is for sure: we HRC owners will be on the lookout for how any changes will affect the owners either positively or negatively. Sapper's post regarding the press release is not encouraging, but let's also remember that that release was meant to communicate to shareholders. Eventually, Marriott will be communicating with us HRC owners, and both the tone and the content of that letter will be very interesting.



Funny you mention that, as I was writing the text here, in the back of my head I was thinking "yeah, well, they were communicating with share holders, so "speak to your audience" kind of thing.  I'm still a bit concerned.  Mainly it is the unknown that concerns me.  Nothing I can do about it, so will just sit back and watch for the time being.


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## Sapper

WalnutBaron said:


> Press release also indicates that Marriott expects to complete the acquisition "in the second half of 2018". That's quick. They apparently have no concerns about regulatory interference on this one.



Too busy with the Sprint / TMobile merger to bother with a little timeshare monopoly... I mean merger.


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## dioxide45

It will be interesting to see if Hyatt pulls the rug out from under the deal. Wasn't there a clause in their agreement with ILG where they could void the deal if Hyatt came under the control of a competitor brand? I am not sure if this is the case with VAC being an independent company, it would seem that they would have to keep Hyatt as a separate company under VAC. I also would think that Hyatt likes the revenue from the license agreement with is really pure profit.


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## Sapper

bdh said:


> When the Marriott press release includes the statement of "_With respect to its Hyatt business, the combined company will have rights to develop, market and sell under the Hyatt Vacation Ownership programs_", it sounds like HRC will remain a separate brand/entity and there may actually be new properties added to the HRC brand.  While HRC owners have heard about new properties being added to the system for the past 10 years, this could be the best chance for that to really happen - granted, to have access to them you'd have to buy into HPP.   I've got time to sit and watch to see how it unfolds, just wont hold my breath.



I wonder if they will roll the HPP into their Trust Point program.


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## Kal

The recurring theme of all the investor materials is greater exposure to selling opportunities.  The former ILG sales people can sell to Marriott owners and the Marriott hucksters can sell to ILG owners.  For that premise to have substance would assume both the ILG and Marriott sales weasels have been ineffective.  I wonder if it simply is a matter of the product they are trying to sell.

It would be interesting to measure the impact of Airbnb and VRBO on the timeshare concept.


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## Sapper

dioxide45 said:


> It will be interesting to see if Hyatt pulls the rug out from under the deal. Wasn't there a clause in their agreement with ILG where they could void the deal if Hyatt came under the control of a competitor brand? I am not sure if this is the case with VAC being an independent company, it would seem that they would have to keep Hyatt as a separate company under VAC. I also would think that Hyatt likes the revenue from the license agreement with is really pure profit.



I mentioned that in one of the other threads on this subject.  I was under the impression that in the deal between Hyatt and II, Hyatt could force the removal of their name if it were ever sold to another hotel branded company (IE, Marriott).  Maybe they offered Hyatt more money for the name rights?


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## taffy19

Sapper said:


> I mentioned that in one of the other threads on this subject.  I was under the impression that in the deal between Hyatt and II, Hyatt could force the removal of their name if it were ever sold to another hotel branded company (IE, Marriott).  Maybe they offered Hyatt more money for the name rights?


You mean between Hyatt and ILG?  I was also wondering why it is going through so quickly and the Government is not questioning them.  Too much consolidation is going on in the Timeshare World and it will hurt the consumer at the end.  Thank goodness that we only own one Marriott and Hyatt and not more.


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## dioxide45

taffy19 said:


> You mean between Hyatt and ILG?  I was also wondering why it is going through so quickly and the Government is not questioning them.  Too much consolidation is going on in the Timeshare World and it will hurt the consumer at the end.  Thank goodness that we only own one Marriott and Hyatt and not more.


The government hasn't had a chance to challenge it or even look in to it yet. It doesn't mean they will. Just that it usually takes time and perhaps even public comment before the government will step in and sue to stop a merger. The merger between Sprint and AT&T and the one between DirecTV and Dish were announced long before the justice department stepped in to sue to stop the deals.


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## ivywag

It wouldn't be easy, but HRC properties COULD change management companies. After all, we employ ILG. It would take a vote of the owners at each property, but if the new system is too awful and everyone is miserable there are alternatives.  My biggest worry is the dilution of available high-season internal trades if we're merged with the other large companies.  We personally really like the Hyatt properties because they are all unique.  The Marriotts are cookie-cutter and are generally of lesser quality construction than Hyatt. The biggest advantage to Marriott and Westin is the number of properties worldwide and that counts for a lot, but the Hyatts are more personalized.  We have a routine and generally trade within Hyatt to the same places each year.  We'll miss being able to trade into our favorite places if the competition for available units becomes intense. We have really enjoyed the HRC as we know it and don't look forward to the likely inevitable changes.


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## lizap

Sapper said:


> I wonder if they will roll the HPP into their Trust Point program.



My guess is HPP is history.. it wasn't successful.  Marriott will ditch it or re-invent it.


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## ivywag

lizap said:


> My guess is HPP is history.. it wasn't successful.  Marriott will ditch it or re-invent it.


Let's hope so!


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## heathpack

Kal said:


> It would be interesting to measure the impact of Airbnb and VRBO on the timeshare concept.



Im sure the impact has been huge.  It used to be that one of the big selling points of timeshares was that you got way more space, a kitchen, a washer/dryer, etc.

Now you can get those things from AirBnB without the upfront cost, the lack of exit strategy, the limited locations, the limited check in days.  And for us, we can bring the dogs with us if we use AirBnB.

Timeshares are still cheaper for us but AirBnB has its appeal.


----------



## Sapper

ivywag said:


> It wouldn't be easy, but HRC properties COULD change management companies. After all, we employ ILG. It would take a vote of the owners at each property, but if the new system is too awful and everyone is miserable there are alternatives.  My biggest worry is the dilution of available high-season internal trades if we're merged with the other large companies.  We personally really like the Hyatt properties because they are all unique.  The Marriotts are cookie-cutter and are generally of lesser quality construction than Hyatt. The biggest advantage to Marriott and Westin is the number of properties worldwide and that counts for a lot, but the Hyatts are more personalized.  We have a routine and generally trade within Hyatt to the same places each year.  We'll miss being able to trade into our favorite places if the competition for available units becomes intense. We have really enjoyed the HRC as we know it and don't look forward to the likely inevitable changes.



This. We have really enjoyed the Hyatt system, properties, etc.  If we would have wanted Marriott, we would have bought Marriott. We wanted Hyatt, we bought Hyatt. Not looking forward to changes Marriott may impose. I know we cannot know what changes may come, but I feel like the changes which will come will only benefit Marriott share holders at our expense. I hope I'm wrong.


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## Sapper

lizap said:


> My guess is HPP is history.. it wasn't successful.  Marriott will ditch it or re-invent it.



That's why I figured they would roll it into their trust point program. They get rid of a horrid program and instantly add lots of units to their trust.


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## Kal

The most difficult issue to overcome is DEEDED UNITS.  That really is the key.  The goals of the HPP were two-fold - extract more money from the owners, and obtain their deeds.  There is always a point where the benefits are so overwhelming (good and bad) an owner will give up deeded ownership.  But keep in mind, the deed has value.  What is the end game with points?  Can you sell them? Can you walk (and no longer pay the annual MF)?  At least with a deed, you can extract value on your way out the door.


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## Sapper

Kal said:


> The most difficult issue to overcome is DEEDED UNITS.  That really is the key.  The goals of the HPP were two-fold - extract more money from the owners, and obtain their deeds.  There is always a point where the benefits are so overwhelming (good and bad) an owner will give up deeded ownership.  But keep in mind, the deed has value.  What is the end game with points?  Can you sell them? Can you walk (and no longer pay the annual MF)?  At least with a deed, you can extract value on your way out the door.



My guess is Marriott will attempt to enroll HRC deed owners into some form of points program. They did this with their own program years ago, so have a history of implementing it. My guess is it will be a heck of a lot less expensive than what HPP was offering in order to lure more folks into giving up their deeds.


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## lizap

Sapper said:


> My guess is Marriott will attempt to enroll HRC deed owners into some form of points program. They did this with their own program years ago, so have a history of implementing it. My guess is it will be a heck of a lot less expensive than what HPP was offering in order to lure more folks into giving up their deeds.



That's a pretty safe bet. Those that bought into HPP are probably going to really get scre**d.


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## suzannesimon

heathpack said:


> Im sure the impact has been huge.  It used to be that one of the big selling points of timeshares was that you got way more space, a kitchen, a washer/dryer, etc.
> 
> Now you can get those things from AirBnB without the upfront cost, the lack of exit strategy, the limited locations, the limited check in days.  And for us, we can bring the dogs with us if we use AirBnB.
> 
> Timeshares are still cheaper for us but AirBnB has its appeal.



VRBO has been around forever.  If people haven’t figured out yet that it is cheaper just to rent a week on Redweek, then I don’t think AirBnB will make any difference.


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## suzannesimon

I own all 3 brands.  The 3 systems are run differently and I don’t know how much a system can be changed compared to what we were entitled to when we joined.  They can’t take our fixed week, fixed units away.  Can they change our CUP points?  Seems to me it will be hard to merge Hyatt.  Marriott owners have always had a 3 week priority to trade into other Marriott resorts in Interval.  It would be nice if we had a 3-week lead time to get Hyatt, Marriott and Vistana properties in Interval.


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## heathpack

suzannesimon said:


> VRBO has been around forever.  If people haven’t figured out yet that it is cheaper just to rent a week on Redweek, then I don’t think AirBnB will make any difference.



Yes home rentals have been around forever, but AirBnB has made it mainstream.  A lot more people now look at AirBnB as an equal option to a hotel and check out private rentals first thing in the process.  My vibe is that AirBnB brings more people into the mix by offering super low budget options (like a room in a house), non-vacation-condo options like city apartment, and traditional vacation condo type rentals. 

At least that's my impression- for me, I might in the past have looked to VRBO to rent a beach house for a group but it wouldn't have occurred to me to look for a smaller place for just my husband and I to go to Paso Robles for wine tasting say.  Now I'll look on AirBnB to see all the options for all the trips.

It would be interesting I think to see what the overall trend is- does the presence of AirBnB as something in the forefront of people's minds nowadays affect TS sales?  I'd love to see some real data on that.


----------



## vikingsholm

I'm a little confused about the comments here regarding deeded week units being a problem.

When Marriott created the DC points system, we were legacy owners with Grand Residence Club, which are deeded weeks for specific units that we own outright.

All enrollment into the points system did was enable us to pay a one time fee that gave us access to enroll any (or none) of our weeks each year as points. Essentially, this deposited a week's 7 days into the points system, and gave us points to use in return for that year (with some ability to borrow from future years' points if necessary). That is an annual election, and is optional. We never have to do it if we don't want to, and can just use weeks as weeks, or trade them in exchange systems week for week, or rent them out. We still own those weeks as deeded. We did not have to give them or the deeds to Marriott permanently and only get points in return for use each year.

What am I missing in the concern expressed about deeded weeks being a problem here, if they end up treating Hyatt legacy weeks owners this same way?


----------



## Kal

vikingsholm said:


> I'm a little confused about the comments here regarding deeded week units being a problem.
> 
> When Marriott created the DC points system, we were legacy owners with Grand Residence Club, which are deeded weeks for specific units that we own outright.
> 
> All enrollment into the points system did was enable us to pay a one time fee that gave us access to enroll any (or none) of our weeks each year as points. Essentially, this deposited a week's 7 days into the points system, and gave us points to use in return for that year (with some ability to borrow from future years' points if necessary). That is an annual election, and is optional. We never have to do it if we don't want to, and can just use weeks as weeks, or trade them in exchange systems week for week, or rent them out. We still own those weeks as deeded. We did not have to give them or the deeds to Marriott permanently and only get points in return for use each year.
> 
> What am I missing in the concern expressed about deeded weeks being a problem here, if they end up treating Hyatt legacy weeks owners this same way?


The issue with the deeds is one of control by the developer.  Yes, owners can opt in and opt out and have a seat at the table.  There's only so much the developer can do to achieve full control.  If an owner only has points, they have no marketable asset.  The developer can manipulate points at will.  If you own a deed, the owner has control of that asset.


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## vikingsholm

Kal, I'm saying in our case, we kept the deed and full control of the week of our legacy Marriott units. Of course, Marriott can alter the points offered for each week we own over time, but we can decide to convert or not convert the week to points in any given year accordingly, while keeping our deeded weeks.

If Hyatt legacy weeks owners were required to give up their deed permanently in exchange for points if they chose to join a new MVC/ILG points system, I can see the problem.

But if they're treated as we were as legacy week deed owners when the new DC point system came along, I just don't see the problem. Marriott did not obtain our existing deeds or control of our units.

Of course, it's unclear as of yet whether the legacy Hyatt deeded weeks owners would be given that similar option under the new system, but I'm thinking they would. Any brand new Hyatt purchasers after the completed merger (except for weeks resales) would probably only be able to buy points under the coming new system though from developer purchases, I presume. At least that's how Marriott runs it now.


----------



## Kal

For Hyatt HRC owners who buy into the HPP (~$13,000), they have the option on an annual basis to transfer their unit into the HPP.  They still retain their deed.  Of course they do have the option to permanently give their deed to the HPP, but Hyatt assumes few if any HRC owners will select that approach.  Once that deed is gone, it's a points play from thereon.


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## Sapper

vikingsholm said:


> I'm a little confused about the comments here regarding deeded week units being a problem.
> 
> When Marriott created the DC points system, we were legacy owners with Grand Residence Club, which are deeded weeks for specific units that we own outright.
> 
> All enrollment into the points system did was enable us to pay a one time fee that gave us access to enroll any (or none) of our weeks each year as points. Essentially, this deposited a week's 7 days into the points system, and gave us points to use in return for that year (with some ability to borrow from future years' points if necessary). That is an annual election, and is optional. We never have to do it if we don't want to, and can just use weeks as weeks, or trade them in exchange systems week for week, or rent them out. We still own those weeks as deeded. We did not have to give them or the deeds to Marriott permanently and only get points in return for use each year.
> 
> What am I missing in the concern expressed about deeded weeks being a problem here, if they end up treating Hyatt legacy weeks owners this same way?



What Kal said is important. There is another aspect to this. When the units were initially sold, they were sold as part of a system.  Each unit week had an assigned point value in this system. If Marriott makes some kind of system you have to enroll your deeded week into, then it necessarily removes that week from the current HRC system, which will negatively impact everyone in the HRC system. If they keep the unit week inside of the pool of HRC, but charge an enrollment fee, then they are adding a fee for something that was sold as part of the original ownership. Either way, not great for HRC owners who trade their weeks.


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## AJCts411

Speculating...within HRC there seems to be two groups of deeded owners, those who use their weeks and those who use their points. Marriott would want to bring as many week owners into the points system, which would IMO bring the most cash flow.  Negative treatment of HRC owners, would affect their cash flow.  I expect some sort of "one time" offer from Marriott, one unlike the HPP, that would entice not force, changing to points.  

Another thought, if the deed owners at a specific resort, organized voted in a sense to reject the deal, via rejecting the Hyatt branding, (might also be in the developers best interest) then that would open the option of affiliating with another brand.  This concept, would defiantly get the attention of the Hyatt Group, and I think prevent negative treatment of deed HRC owners, and a large sum of money was paid for the right to use the Hyatt brand. Another protection is all the lawyers probably salivating at the thought of a big payout if things went badly for HRC deeded owners. 

Will the timeshare conglomerate Marriott is creating just steam roll over their newly acquired timeshare business to the determent of the owners? That remains to be seen.


----------



## stover33

I have little optimism that this will do anything but harm current Hyatt owners.  This merger has been driven primarily by an "activist investor" (read: Greenwich CT hedge fund) of ILG.



> Dear Fellow ILG Stockholders,
> 
> 
> FrontFour Capital Group LLC (together with its affiliates, "FrontFour" or "we") is a significant stockholder of ILG, Inc. ("ILG" or the "Company").  On May 24, 2017 we issued a public letter to the Company's Board of Directors (the "Board") outlining the strong strategic and financial rationale for a combination between ILG and Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation ("Marriott Vacations").  At that time, we strongly believed that despite ILG's strong standalone prospects, such a combination would, in our view, maximize value for ILG's stockholders and result in (i) significant cost savings from the elimination of duplicative finance, IT, legal and sales & marketing functions, (ii) robust revenue synergies given the ability to market to a combined Marriott Rewards and Starwood Preferred Guest loyalty program and (iii) the removal of the risk that ILG's Interval International exchange business could be negatively impacted should Marriott Vacations threaten to or actually not renew its contract.



https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...ses-letter-to-ilg-stockholders-300601609.html

I'd pose the question of whether an activist hedge fund ever pushed for any merger, that was in the interest of the customers of the companies involved... their only interest is maximizing shareholder value.  The Hyatt system was unique in that it had less resorts, but in the most desirable areas.  The internal exchange system worked great, and their resorts were a step above (IMHO) in quality overall from Marriott (Marriott does have some beautiful newer resorts, but across the board Hyatt quality is better).

I fear that Hyatt will merge into Marriott, and the unique things that made us buy into the Hyatt system will be diluted or eliminated altogether.  It feels somewhat like a great thing is coming to an end.  I hope I am being overly pessimistic.


----------



## suzannesimon

I am not concerned that Marriott is going to harm our Hyatt ownership.  That’s not the way they do business.  If anything, they will give you the option to join the Destination Club points program which is just an additional option for your ownership.  They can’t take your week away.  Originally it cost $599 to opt-in.  Lately it has been free.  No one takes your week.  I paid $699 to enroll 2 weeks and have only converted to points once.  I still like the option though but my Marriott weeks are worth more as rentals than as points.  They will want us to join so that they can get access to our weeks for other owners if we decide to trade for the points and use their weeks.  I like Hyatt, but I like my Marriott and Westin weeks just as much.  I certainly wouldn’t want Hyatt owners to quit the system and go with some no-name brand.


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## Kal

From the stockholders perspective it's all about dividends and increasing stock value.  The combined company will earn more revenue thru 3 ways:
* Cost savings from the elimination of duplicative finance, IT, legal and sales & marketing functions
* Increased opportunities to sell time-share product
* Increased revenue thru time-share maintenance fees

I would add another:
* Acquiring deeded real estate (thru time-share permanent conversion to points)

There is never a mention of increasing value to existing time-share owners.


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## vikingsholm

Thanks for some of the clarification from Hyatt owners. I've traded into Hyatts and like them a lot, but don't really understand the details of the current and pre-ILG Hyatt systems. Hyatt Aspen is one of the nicer timeshares we've stayed at, though the Ritz Aspen and Vail are just as good if not better, although the intown location of Hyatt Aspen is a bonus. The other Hyatts we've traded into are Sedona and Carmel. Both quite nice, though I'd put the Marriott Desert Springs, Timber Lodge/GRC, Newport Coast, several Hawaii properties, and the remodeled Summit Watch against either of those - and I haven't been to any east coast Marriotts to compare to those. I wouldn't mind better access to Hyatts again, but with the Ritz's and more wide ranging locations of all Marriotts, I could stick with just those if necessary and if the new system makes it too costly for Marriott owners to access Hyatts.

It sounds like the HPP is similar to Marriott DC points? If so, I'm shocked that it cost $13k to enroll in that, where it was only $695 for enrolling one Marriott legacy week and $1995 for any number of multiple legacy weeks bought prior to the cutoff date in 2010. Maybe there's more to the HPP that I don't understand though. I suspect Marriott will make it affordable and easy for Hyatt owners to access Marriotts and Westins, and maybe even make it free for those who already paid the HPP fee. Who knows though?

While Hyatts are very nice, I think your owners who travel a lot will come to appreciate easier access to Marriotts and Westins. The wider range of locations and good quality do make for a greater range of interesting choices. I also suspect that original owners of Marriott, Hyatt, and Westin will all have some degree of preference and protection for trades within their own systems, even as the possibilities open for more trades into these other systems within certain timeframe windows, etc., based on level of points ownership or similar criteria. I agree with suzannesimon that Marriott is likely to treat Hyatt owners better than you expect, and certainly better than ILG did.


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## bdh

Sapper said:


> What Kal said is important. There is another aspect to this. When the units were initially sold, they were sold as part of a system.  Each unit week had an assigned point value in this system. If Marriott makes some kind of system you have to enroll your deeded week into, then it necessarily removes that week from the current HRC system, which will negatively impact everyone in the HRC system. If they keep the unit week inside of the pool of HRC, but charge an enrollment fee, then they are adding a fee for something that was sold as part of the original ownership. Either way, not great for HRC owners who trade their weeks.



A FWIW: When Hyatt sold the original HRC deeded week, it was just that - a guaranteed week and a specific unit that is real property with a recorded deed.  The rules noted that the ability to do internal exchanges within the Hyatt system was a benefit/feature that was not guaranteed and could be eliminated at any time. (Insert axiom of "buy a location  you'd be ok with visiting on a regular basis")

Marriott or Hyatt's main objective is to make money - typically by selling TS.  They will not/can not require an HRC owner to turn over their deed.  You can volunteer to do that when buying HPP (not sure why anyone would).


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## Sapper

bdh said:


> A FWIW: When Hyatt sold the original HRC deeded week, it was just that - a guaranteed week and a specific unit that is real property with a recorded deed.  The rules noted that the ability to do internal exchanges within the Hyatt system was a benefit/feature that was not guaranteed and could be eliminated at any time. (Insert axiom of "buy a location  you'd be ok with visiting on a regular basis")
> 
> Marriott or Hyatt's main objective is to make money - typically by selling TS.  They will not/can not require an HRC owner to turn over their deed.  You can volunteer to do that when buying HPP (not sure why anyone would).



Ok, fair enough, it was a specific week and unit number. This makes me even less interested in any changes Marriott may offer.


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## NWTRVLRS

vikingsholm said:


> Thanks for some of the clarification from Hyatt owners. I've traded into Hyatts and like them a lot, but don't really understand the details of the current and pre-ILG Hyatt systems. Hyatt Aspen is one of the nicer timeshares we've stayed at, though the Ritz Aspen and Vail are just as good if not better, although the intown location of Hyatt Aspen is a bonus. The other Hyatts we've traded into are Sedona and Carmel. Both quite nice, though I'd put the Marriott Desert Springs, Timber Lodge/GRC, Newport Coast, several Hawaii properties, and the remodeled Summit Watch against either of those - and I haven't been to any east coast Marriotts to compare to those. I wouldn't mind better access to Hyatts again, but with the Ritz's and more wide ranging locations of all Marriotts, I could stick with just those if necessary and if the new system makes it too costly for Marriott owners to access Hyatts.
> 
> It sounds like the HPP is similar to Marriott DC points? If so, I'm shocked that it cost $13k to enroll in that, where it was only $695 for enrolling one Marriott legacy week and $1995 for any number of multiple legacy weeks bought prior to the cutoff date in 2010. Maybe there's more to the HPP that I don't understand though. I suspect Marriott will make it affordable and easy for Hyatt owners to access Marriotts and Westins, and maybe even make it free for those who already paid the HPP fee. Who knows though?
> 
> While Hyatts are very nice, I think your owners who travel a lot will come to appreciate easier access to Marriotts and Westins. The wider range of locations and good quality do make for a greater range of interesting choices. I also suspect that original owners of Marriott, Hyatt, and Westin will all have some degree of preference and protection for trades within their own systems, even as the possibilities open for more trades into these other systems within certain timeframe windows, etc., based on level of points ownership or similar criteria. I agree with suzannesimon that Marriott is likely to treat Hyatt owners better than you expect, and certainly better than ILG did.



The reason for the $13k is that you have to buy a specified amount of points to be able to join the points program... and those specific points have a higher maintenance fee then anyone is paying at Pinon Pointe, so I think it is a very hard sell for those of us that own here to consider paying that much. 
And then the buy in gives you the option of choosing or not choosing to enroll your deeded week each year... we just sat through the owner update yesterday, and did not choose to join... and it has been interesting chatting with people on property who also attended... and they all said th same thing... “I don’t get this!”


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## vikingsholm

NWTRVLRS said:


> The reason for the $13k is that you have to buy a specified amount of points to be able to join the points program... and those specific points have a higher maintenance fee then anyone is paying at Pinon Pointe, so I think it is a very hard sell for those of us that own here to consider paying that much.
> And then the buy in gives you the option of choosing or not choosing to enroll your deeded week each year... we just sat through the owner update yesterday, and did not choose to join... and it has been interesting chatting with people on property who also attended... and they all said th same thing... “I don’t get this!”


Does that $13k simply allow you to join the points program (and then have the choice of enrolling your deeded week each year), or is it like buying an entire new set of points too, that are the equivalent of having another week's worth of points to trade in addition to your existing deeded week that you can either use, or convert to points for trading each year? So in essence you've bought an entire additional week (via points) with that $13k, plus the ability to enroll your existing deeded week into the points program each year? Then, you'd now have two full weeks worth of ownership via the combination of your existing deeded week plus a new group of points that give you a second week's worth of ownership by spending that $13k?

It sounds like this is similar to buying trust points, and therefore an additional week of ownership above and beyond your existing deeded week. But it also sounds like you are required to buy these for $13k in order to use your existing week in the points system at all - unlike Marriott, where you can simply enroll your legacy week for $695 to join the points system without buying any new trust points, but you don't get an extra batch of trust points for doing that, only the ability to use your week with its designated number of points each year if you want to.

Sorry if this is redundant for Hyatt owners here - I'm just interested in and trying to understand the Hyatt points system as it looks like it will be merging with Marriott VC.

If the $13k gives you the additional points (like buying trust points separately from Marriott in addition to the week that you already own), then I can understand why it may cost more like that. But if all it does is give you the right to convert your one existing deeded week to points each year for trading, then it seems like it's comparing that $13k to the Marriott $695 one time fee for enrolling an existing legacy week, which is quite a large difference.


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## Kal

To participate in the HPP you have to purchase 660 new points at $2/point = $13,200.  Then you have the annual option to transfer your owned unit into the HPP.  If it is a 2000 point unit, you then will have 2660 HPP points.  The comparison to Marriott is $695 vs $13,200 for similar products.  For the HPP, you pay a MF which today is about $1,900 per unit per year.  IMHO, that number will increase next year.


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## stover33

It will be interesting to see how the integration impacts exchanging.  Will Marriott/Hyatt owners have internal exchange capability across the 2 systems, or will it still be done through II external exchanges, as always?  If the systems are combined I could see pluses and minuses for Hyatt owners, on the plus side it may be easier to get into higher-demand Marriott resorts.  On the minus side there are more Marriott owners than Hyatt, and Hyatt has some very desirable and exclusive locations which could potentially be even tougher to trade into if Marriott owners were in the same pool.

The fact sheet from Marriott (posted on the Marriott discussion thread - http://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/9398e4bc-c058-433a-a9b7-6d7f099394e2) does mention increased revenue from exchanges with Hyatt etc., but it's hard to tell if that is referring to II exchanges, or a new combined internal exchange system.


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## VacationForever

stover33 said:


> It will be interesting to see how the integration impacts exchanging.  Will Marriott/Hyatt owners have internal exchange capability across the 2 systems, or will it still be done through II external exchanges, as always?  If the systems are combined I could see pluses and minuses for Hyatt owners, on the plus side it may be easier to get into higher-demand Marriott resorts.  On the minus side there are more Marriott owners than Hyatt, and Hyatt has some very desirable and exclusive locations which could potentially be even tougher to trade into if Marriott owners were in the same pool.
> 
> The fact sheet from Marriott (posted on the Marriott discussion thread - http://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/9398e4bc-c058-433a-a9b7-6d7f099394e2) does mention increased revenue from exchanges with Hyatt etc., but it's hard to tell if that is referring to II exchanges, or a new combined internal exchange system.


The acquisition is not meant to save money for owners but just as the opposite, i.e. to make more money for its shareholders.  No reason for VAC to stop charging exchange fees in II for exchanges between the 3 brands.

I expect points acquired through developer purchase will have the ability to utilize internal exchanges at 9 months out or something and may even charge a $99 exchange fee.  Just look at the Wyndham model for cross booking into the other 2 systems using developer purchased points for booking Wyndham/Worldmark/Shell.


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## heathpack

Since Marriott bought an exchange company, it seems to me that they would use the exchange company (ie Interval) to make exchanges.  I’ll bet they keep the Destination Club but I would be surprised if there were exchange systems for their hotel-branded timeshares and then II for everyone else.  They’ll probably want lots of good inventory in II, maybe they’ll even sell some sort of II points, like RCI sells RCI points.


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## vikingsholm

Kal said:


> To participate in the HPP you have to purchase 660 new points at $2/point = $13,200.  Then you have the annual option to transfer your owned unit into the HPP.  If it is a 2000 point unit, you then will have 2660 HPP points.  The comparison to Marriott is $695 vs $13,200 for similar products.  For the HPP, you pay a MF which today is about $1,900 per unit per year.  IMHO, that number will increase next year.


Thanks for answering, Kal. That makes it pretty clear to me now. Quite pricey compared to Marriott's point system introduction for legacy owners though.

One last question - is the $1,900 MF you mention covering both the deeded week ownership and the 2660 points? I presume it is, and is not an additional new annual fee on top of the already existing MF for the deeded week.

I would love to be a fly on the wall listening to the management debating and discussing how they are going to integrate all of these systems. It will be an interesting and complex puzzle. My experience with Marriott when they went to points was that they were pretty fair and flexible when it came to designing and adjusting the system as new developments emerged, at least for us legacy owners. I expect this will be similar with Hyatt and Westin incorporation. 

There will be some pluses and minuses, but on net I think they'll want to treat the owners of these beautiful new properties fairly, gain their confidence, and keep them happy. I suspect that owning more units/points coming in will be a big advantage in joining/converting more cheaply to a new expanded system, though whether those are treated differently if originally developer vs. resale purchases is an open question. 

Bottom line IMO is that Marriott will want to expand availability of all systems' units through points exchanges rapidly, I suspect, so will have some good incentives. I still think they'll offer favoritism and preferences for owners within-original system reservations and trades though, as they do with Marriott now, and base new inter-system exchanges partly on higher ownership levels getting better treatment. They will of course want to sell a lot of new points to existing and brand new customers, and after all, that will be a big part of their bread and butter.


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## heathpack

My take on DC is that it’s a good product, a little expensive, but not a bad value.

My guess is that Marriott will come up with something similar for II members.  It will probably be better than the current II but more expensive.  Those who find the current II system works well for them won’t be happy.  Those who use their weeks won’t find much value.  People who exchange a lot will find more opportunities at greater cost.

Hopefully there will be a little grandfathering to keep current owners/members happy.

We were at Disneyland yesterday and I saw the DVC booths, people getting signed up for tours.  I actually wanted to go over and say to those people:  DVC is a great product, if you can afford it and want to go to Disney repeatedly, you should buy.

So obviously Disney has done a great job with me!  I can even understand buying from the developer with DVC.


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## Sapper

vikingsholm said:


> Thanks for answering, Kal. That makes it pretty clear to me now. Quite pricey compared to Marriott's point system introduction for legacy owners though.
> 
> One last question - is the $1,900 MF you mention covering both the deeded week ownership and the 2660 points? I presume it is, and is not an additional new annual fee on top of the already existing MF for the deeded week.
> .



New fee for HPP points PLUS the maintenance dues on the original owned unit/week. 

Now you are starting to see why most think it's a horrid program.


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## Sapper

heathpack said:


> My take on DC is that it’s a good product, a little expensive, but not a bad value.
> 
> My guess is that Marriott will come up with something similar for II members.  It will probably be better than the current II but more expensive.  Those who find the current II system works well for them won’t be happy.  Those who use their weeks won’t find much value.  People who exchange a lot will find more opportunities at greater cost.
> 
> Hopefully there will be a little grandfathering to keep current owners/members happy.
> 
> We were at Disneyland yesterday and I saw the DVC booths, people getting signed up for tours.  I actually wanted to go over and say to those people:  DVC is a great product, if you can afford it and want to go to Disney repeatedly, you should buy.
> 
> So obviously Disney has done a great job with me!  I can even understand buying from the developer with DVC.



Marriott can't charge too much more, or people will simply stop buying or stop trading, and just use other options for travel (VRBO, AirB&B, etc). One of the driving forces in the timeshare community is long term cost for vacations. Make that cost too high, and they will loose customers / market share (of total vacation housing).


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## vikingsholm

Sapper said:


> New fee for HPP points PLUS the maintenance dues on the original owned unit/week.
> 
> Now you are starting to see why most think it's a horrid program.


Yikes Sapper, that is pretty bad. I think Marriott will offer something much better for Hyatt owners.

Regarding your other reply to heathpack, I agree with that too. I'm guessing Marriott will offer some annual trading/points reservation fee for owners of the various systems in this new combined entity, similar to the annual MVC fee. We pay $200-250 per year and in return get unlimited no cost week-week trades within the Marriott system (it used to be $129-$159 for each Marriott-Marriott trade in II separately), plus unlimited use of points reservations for this one fee per year. 

Both week-week and points trades and reservations can be cancelled before 60 days of the res. without a penalty fee and re-used on other trades/reservations freely, and can be reused/re-reserved for free even if cancelled within 60 days, but with some re-use limits on those short term upcoming 60 day window reservation cancellations. So if they offer a similar deal to Hyatt and Vistana owners after the merger, trades and points usage costs are pretty reasonably structured. But the more you own, the better deal you get, by making many of these reservations and trades each year, for one annual fee instead of per trade or per reservation.


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## Kal

My guess is Marriott will be hands off the HRC/HPP system.  Their benefit will be greater sales opportunities and showing they provide a full suite of high-end timeshare systems. 

HPP members will have greater access to the Marriott properties and Marriott owners will have access thru HPP to Hyatt properties.  For HRC, it will likely be business as always.  Exchanges thru II might be expanded, but I doubt it.  Any beneficial change would only occur if it results in increasing Marriott's profit margin.  The "Hyatt" management structure will likely not change; thus the annual increase in MF will continue and the profit centered business decisions will continue.  Whenever there is a business buy out, the first words will be _"we're not going to change something that is financially successful, that's why we bought the Hyatt System"._

A clarification on HPP maintenance fees.  The HRC MF will continue as always even if the owner uses the annual transfer option.  The HPP MF will be based on the actual number of HPP points purchased, but will likely increase over time.  For 660 HPP points the MF will be about $600 on top of the HRC MF.


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## dioxide45

vikingsholm said:


> If the $13k gives you the additional points (like buying trust points separately from Marriott in addition to the week that you already own), then I can understand why it may cost more like that. But if all it does is give you the right to convert your one existing deeded week to points each year for trading, then it seems like it's comparing that $13k to the Marriott $695 one time fee for enrolling an existing legacy week, which is quite a large difference.


The $13K is not comparable to the $695 at all based on additional responses that I am reading. It seems that the $13K is comparable to buying 1,000 DC points and getting enrollment in DC for free for other Marriott weeks that are owned. I don't know what 660 HPP points really get you. The MFs on 1,000 DC points is about $550 and 1,000 DC points would give you a 1BR unit in gold season in Orlando.


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## dioxide45

Kal said:


> A clarification on HPP maintenance fees. The HRC MF will continue as always even if the owner uses the annual transfer option. The HPP MF will be based on the actual number of HPP points purchased, but will likely increase over time. For 660 HPP points the MF will be about $600 on top of the HRC MF.


Thank you for clarifying. This was getting very confusing. $1900 in MFs for 660 points seemed like a lot. Really the $1900 is a moving target because it is really whatever your MFs are for your underlying week plus the MF for the $600 MF for the 660 HPP points. So someone could have however fee or someone could have a higher fee. This is really no different than Marriott's DC trust points. You pay about $0.55 per point in MFs and then MFs for any weeks you own. Some people pay $2200 for a week in Hawaii while someone in Orlando only pays $1300.


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## ocjohn

Kal said:


> To participate in the HPP you have to purchase 660 new points at $2/point = $13,200.  Then you have the annual option to transfer your owned unit into the HPP.  If it is a 2000 point unit, you then will have 2660 HPP points.  The comparison to Marriott is $695 vs $13,200 for similar products.  For the HPP, you pay a MF which today is about $1,900 per unit per year.  IMHO, that number will increase next year.



you mean 660 new points at $20/point = $13,200,  and ADD $600 in MF associated with the 660 points, or $1/point for maintenance.  Right?


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## Kal

ocjohn said:


> you mean 660 new points at $20/point = $13,200,  and ADD $600 in MF associated with the 660 points...


Yes, that's it, just to play the HPP game.


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## ocjohn

Kal said:


> Yes, that's it, just to play the HPP game.



so comparing to what we've already bought (all resale)

Property    Acquisition Price/Point     MF/Point

HKB            $21                              $1.16
HSL              6                                 0.71
HYI               5                                0.86

HPP             $20                              $1

I can't see it.  And, we got some LCUP points on our last acquisition, and were able to use them for a portfolio stay.  I know LCUP's are 60 days out limited- but- if they continue this we'd have a shot at portfolio properties anyway?


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## NWTRVLRS

And remember that this 660 just buys you into the points program for the opportunity to decide at the beginning of each year if you want to place your deeded week(s) into the points program... there is a $133 fee, per contract, to do that.


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## heathpack

dioxide45 said:


> The $13K is not comparable to the $695 at all based on additional responses that I am reading. It seems that the $13K is comparable to buying 1,000 DC points and getting enrollment in DC for free for other Marriott weeks that are owned. I don't know what 660 HPP points really get you. The MFs on 1,000 DC points is about $550 and 1,000 DC points would give you a 1BR unit in gold season in Orlando.



As an easy example, inHRC, 660 points would get you a 3 night weekend in silver season in a 1BR. Silver season is the 4th level down (it goes Diamond, Plat, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper, Mountain).

But its a little more complicated than that.  Not all resorts have all seasons, some don’t have silver or below.  Some resorts have 1BR units that “cost” the 2BR price.  You can book midweek 2 night or 4 night stays that cost less points.  Some resorts have studios which are less points.  Some resorts only have 2BR units.

For example 660 points might get you a silver 1BR unit but at Hyatt Highlands Inn, the 1BR units trade as 2BRs and there is no season lower than gold.  So 660 points only gets you 2 midweek nights in a 1BR.  At Hyatt Kaanapali, there is no season below Diamond, and the smallest unit is 1BR, your best use of 660 points there is a 4 night midweek stay.  The only full weeks you could get with 660 points is a gold or lesser season studio.

But that’s all in HRC.  To my knowledge, there is not a published HPP points chart.  You just have to search the website and see what’s available and how many points that would cost you.  I could be wrong on this (although I would not be wrong if Hyatt had chosen to give current owners info on how HPP works, I’d know the system if I’d ever have been given the info to understand it), maybe there is a chart and I haven’t seen it.

Bottom line, 660 points doesn’t get you much.  Say you use 660 pts for 20 years, your cost is $650/yr purchase price (not including lost opportunity cost for that money) plus $600/yr MF (excluding MF increases which are of course going to happen), you are looking at $1250/yr cost for 660 pts.  Pretty expensive.


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## Kal

Also in the HPP, there may be housekeeping fees for short week or daily stays.  This would be additive to all the other costs associated with the $13,200 upfront price of the 660 points.

I sat through the HPP presentation and none of that was included in the pitch.  Matter of fact they just stated $20 per point and never did the arithmetic to state the $13,200 figure.


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## NWTRVLRS

Yes in HPP there are housekeeping fees... and depending on how many points you own total in HPP (including contracts you may deposit at the begging of each year), you are at a ‘level’... I think there are 4 levels... with each level you get a specific amount of housekeeping fees each year... for the amount of points we own, we would have been at the level to have 2 housekeeping fees per year... but if you break up your vacation into smaller days of a few nights, you can quickly use up your allotment and have to pay housekeeping fees.


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## ivywag

heathpack said:


> As an easy example, inHRC, 660 points would get you a 3 night weekend in silver season in a 1BR. Silver season is the 4th level down (it goes Diamond, Plat, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper, Mountain).
> 
> But its a little more complicated than that.  Not all resorts have all seasons, some don’t have silver or below.  Some resorts have 1BR units that “cost” the 2BR price.  You can book midweek 2 night or 4 night stays that cost less points.  Some resorts have studios which are less points.  Some resorts only have 2BR units.
> 
> For example 660 points might get you a silver 1BR unit but at Hyatt Highlands Inn, the 1BR units trade as 2BRs and there is no season lower than gold.  So 660 points only gets you 2 midweek nights in a 1BR.  At Hyatt Kaanapali, there is no season below Diamond, and the smallest unit is 1BR, your best use of 660 points there is a 4 night midweek stay.  The only full weeks you could get with 660 points is a gold or lesser season studio.
> 
> But that’s all in HRC.  To my knowledge, there is not a published HPP points chart.  You just have to search the website and see what’s available and how many points that would cost you.  I could be wrong on this (although I would not be wrong if Hyatt had chosen to give current owners info on how HPP works, I’d know the system if I’d ever have been given the info to understand it), maybe there is a chart and I haven’t seen it.
> 
> Bottom line, 660 points doesn’t get you much.  Say you use 660 pts for 20 years, your cost is $650/yr purchase price (not including lost opportunity cost for that money) plus $600/yr MF (excluding MF increases which are of course going to happen), you are looking at $1250/yr cost for 660 pts.  Pretty expensive.



There is an HPP points chart on the website.  Go to "Vacation Planning Tools" then to "Member Resources." If you scroll down, you'll see it. 

By the way, I'm not able to see ANY HPP inventory when searching all resorts.  Is there something that I'm doing incorrectly or isn't there any HPP inventory available?


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## heathpack

ivywag said:


> There is an HPP points chart on the website.  Go to "Vacation Planning Tools" then to "Member Resources." If you scroll down, you'll see it.
> 
> By the way, I'm not able to see ANY HPP inventory when searching all resorts.  Is there something that I'm doing incorrectly or isn't there any HPP inventory available?



I have seen some in the past, I just ran a normal search and was given both HRC and HPP units to choose from.

So you are probably not doing anything wrong.

However I will mention that the last few searches I've done, I have not seen any HPP inventory available.  The search engine is glitchy though.  I have noticed that when I include more than 1 property in a search, I see less available units than if I search one property at a time.

Thanks for the tip on the HPP points chart.


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## LurkerBee

This is really interesting.  I am brand loyal to Marriott hotels, but went with Hyatt for timeshare because I wanted access to Key West. Given its taken several years to see how the Starwood/Marriott merge ended up (the last phase was only a few weeks ago), I expect it will be while before we really know how this all goes down. I guess I'm going to say I'm cautiously optimistic, possibly influenced by how I feel about Marriott in general and through seeing the Starwood merger.


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## Kal

It's interesting that both Marriott and Hyatt sold off their timeshare groups and now Marriott is getting them back in the ILG holdings.  I wonder what Marriott saw in ILG that was of value even though they would have to take back the timeshares.  This could be something to watch with time and see if Marriott spins them off again.

Hmmm, what would it be like to be owned by Motel 6, Inc.?


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## VacationForever

Kal said:


> It's interesting that both Marriott and Hyatt sold off their timeshare groups and now Marriott is getting them back in the ILG holdings.  I wonder what Marriott saw in ILG that was of value even though they would have to take back the timeshares.  This could be something to watch with time and see if Marriott spins them off again.
> 
> Hmmm, what would it be like to be owned by Motel 6, Inc.?


Marriott did not sell off the Marriott timeshare group but merely split it off as a separate company.  It is different from Hyatt and Vistana which indeed were sold/merged with ILG.


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## dioxide45

Kal said:


> It's interesting that both Marriott and Hyatt sold off their timeshare groups and now Marriott is getting them back in the ILG holdings.  I wonder what Marriott saw in ILG that was of value even though they would have to take back the timeshares.  This could be something to watch with time and see if Marriott spins them off again.
> 
> Hmmm, what would it be like to be owned by Motel 6, Inc.?


Also, the Marriott that spun off the Marriott timeshare division is not the same Marriott that is getting them back. The Marriott division that was spunoff is now acquiring ILG. Nothing at all to do with Marriott International that runs the hotels.


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## taffy19

There was a thread about what a Marriott salesman was telling a TUGger during a sales presentation a few days ago.

How can these big corporations let their sales department get away with starting rumors at their sales presentations or even outright lie just to make a sale that day?  An ethical company would stop this behavior immediately.

I do wonder what will become of the HRC because they had a good program that most people seemed to like but they had to go on the points wagon too just to keep up with the rest of the industry.


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## Kal

taffy19 said:


> ...How can these big corporations let their sales department get away with starting rumors at their sales presentations or even outright lie just to make a sale that day?  An ethical company would stop this behavior immediately...


Actually, according to the manual for timeshare huckstering,  the sales people are doing a good job.  Chapter 1 deals with "how does the customer like to vacation!"  Chapter 2 is "saving big money on your vacations".  Chapter 3 is "how to lie and cheat (because the customer doesn't know the truth)".  Chapter 4 is "have I got a deal for you today".


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## Sapper

Kal said:


> Hmmm, what would it be like to be owned by Motel 6, Inc.?



Lower maintenance fees?

At least they'll leave the light on for you.


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## Tucsonadventurer

taffy19 said:


> There was a thread about what a Marriott salesman was telling a TUGger during a sales presentation a few days ago.
> 
> How can these big corporations let their sales department get away with starting rumors at their sales presentations or even outright lie just to make a sale that day?  An ethical company would stop this behavior immediately.
> 
> I do wonder what will become of the HRC because they had a good program that most people seemed to like but they had to go on the points wagon too just to keep up with the rest of the industry.


Do you have a link to the thread. I will report on my Marriott presentation when we return from Maui but am curious to compare.


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## chemteach

Tucsonadventurer said:


> Do you have a link to the thread. I will report on my Marriott presentation when we return from Maui but am curious to compare.


If you click on "thread" in your reply, or in the original post, you will be directed to the thread.


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## taffy19

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/maui-presentation-6-2018.274816/


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## Tucsonadventurer

Thank you!


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## Kal

Sapper said:


> Lower maintenance fees?
> 
> At least they'll leave the light on for you.


OMG, there will be an extra fee for the light.


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