# Hawaii vs. St. John / St. Thomas



## Quimby4

My question is, How does Hawaii compare with St. John / St. Thomas and other Caribbean areas?   

We love, love Hawaii.   Have been to Maui, Kauai and Oahu many times, will make it to the Big Island someday.  

How do the beaches, snorkeling, weather etc. compare.

Will we be disappointed to venture out from Hawaii ?   

Thanks for any input


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## quiltergal

I'm a die hard Hawaii fan and just got back from my first trip to the Caribbean.  By all means go!  You won't be disappointed.  It's very different from Hawaii, but not in a bad way.  The snorkeling is very good.  We went to Grand Cayman and swam with the stingrays, and snorkeled Coral Gardens.  The beaches are beautiful.  Seven Mile Beach and Rum Point are right off a post card.  We were in Grand Cayman the last week in Jan and the weather was fantastic.  Not unlike winter in Hawaii.


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## Henry M.

I would say some Caribbean beaches are nicer than Hawaii. The weather is also generally nice as long as you don't go during hurricane season. In Belize, for example, the water is clearer than in Hawaii and the world's second largest barrier reef comes almost all the way to the shore at one point. So diving and snorkeling are spectacular. There are also ancient Mayan ruins you can visit inland.

Having said that, I still find Hawaii the best mix of civilization and tropical paradise. When I go to the Caribbean, I really enjoy my vacations but after a week or 10 days I am happy to be headed home. When I go to Maui, my family and I are sad to be heading home even after 2 or 3 weeks of being on the island. Somehow a beautiful Caribbean resort gets old after a while and the conditions for normal every day living (not being a tourist) are just different.

Bottom line, though, I think the Caribbean is definitely worth visiting. It is a beautiful region, with great beaches, clearer water than Hawaii, and beautiful scenery. You don't have to give up Hawaii at all, but a trip elsewhere now and then will surely expand your horizons.


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## KOR5Star

I agree with everything emuyshondt said except for saying some of the beaches are better than Hawai'i.  I think they are different, not better.  Personally, I miss the wave break of Hawai'i when I'm in the Caribbean.  

As said already, Grand Caymen and Ambergris Caye Belize are both great diving and snorkeling spots.  (Belize City is a little scary.  I'd love it if we could fly directly onto Ambergris.)

Speaking of St Thomas and St John in particular... I don't care for them.  I'm definately going to get flamed for saying this, but I'm speaking the truth.  Anger over past slavery is passed off as "culture" on these islands.  We hired a guide to explore the island and every sight we saw had a horrible slave story associated with it. I realize this is history, but it depresses every new discovery.

There are references to slavery just about everywhere you turn.  This is not "culture".  This is one point in history.  There must be other points of interest, but anything other than slavery seems to be ignored on these two islands. 

The shops, especially on St Thomas, lack variety.  Walking in one is like walking in the next.  Jewlery shops have taken over and are EVERYWHERE!

I'd recommend the Caribbean, but don't expect Hawai'i.  There's only one Hawai'i.  ...and it's far better than the Caribbean.  

If you go, I'd recommend other Caribbean destinations over St Thomas or St John.

And watch yourself at night.  Get back to your resort by early evening and you'll be OK.


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## Walt

*What Destinations Do You Recommend?*



KOR5Star said:


> If you go, I'd recommend other Caribbean destinations over St Thomas or St John.
> 
> And watch yourself at night.  Get back to your resort by early evening and you'll be OK.



And do you need to get back to your resort by early evening on all of the islands?

Walt


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## debraxh

We've been to many places in the Caribbean and St. Thomas is our least favorite by far.  Only spent one day on St John and it was beautiful and a place I would probably return.  The only way you'll get me back in St Thomas is to arrive at the airport and take the ferry to St John  

We like both destinations, but have been visiting Hawaii more frequently due to the easy travel from the west coast.  For us, most Caribbean destinations require overnight travel which I hate!


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## moonlightgraham

*Baseball Analogy*

I always use the baseball classification analogy when I get this question having been to both where the caribbean is the minor leagues. Some islands a class A, some AA and some AAA. Whereas, the Hawaiian Islands are the major leagues. While there's differences between the class A, to AA to AAA the biggest jump is from AAA to the majors.


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## citymouse0_1

St. John I really liked what we saw and did.  One beach we visited was as good as any I have ever seen.  I don't ever need to go back to St. Thomas.

Having said that, Hawaii is my slam dunk favorite.


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## nonutrix

I like the Caribbean, ok...but for my time and money, it's Hawai'i hands down!

nonutrix


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## randyz

I have been to Kona 3 times in the last number of years, and just recently returned to the Caribbean (Eleuthera, Bahamas) a month ago.

IMHO asking which is better Caribbean or Hawaii is almost impossible to answer, both are great and similar, but in other ways different. I have visited Martinque, Guadaloupe, Jamaica, Bahamas (3) in the last 20 years.

Eleuthera is an out island, the beaches are fabulous and beyond anything I have seen on the Big Island. The reefs and snorkeling great. Surfers beach is as good as Hawaii but virtually deserted. No fast food period, no name brand stores period ..... and no hospitals. In one week visited 4 beaches with pink sand, most miles long and found 0-10 people on them. The downside, harder to get too, roads rough to primitive (almost needed a 4x4 to get to surfers beach), no shopping, expensive food. And no scenery away from the beach and water.

Jamaica I found very much like Hawaii, (tropical and mountainous) but there is poverty. Martinque and Guadaloupe were also like Hawaii, but their is the French language to deal with. Since those islands have French social supports, no real poverty.

For ease of access (I live on the west coast), travelling with younger children (in the past for me), amenities, quality of services I would choose Hawaii. To really get away from it all, parts of the Caribbean are unbeatable.  As for quality of beaches I think its like arguing which quality wine is superior.

Randy


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## KOR5Star

moonlightgraham said:


> I always use the baseball classification analogy when I get this question having been to both where the caribbean is the minor leagues. Some islands a class A, some AA and some AAA. Whereas, the Hawaiian Islands are the major leagues. While there's differences between the class A, to AA to AAA the biggest jump is from AAA to the majors.


I love this analogy and agree whole heartedly.  

If you don't mind, I'm going to use it.  Well... on second thought... even if you do mind.


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## KOR5Star

Walt said:


> And do you need to get back to your resort by early evening on all of the islands?
> 
> Walt


This is true for most of the Caribbean islands, but for someone that does not know the island already, I'd say it's better safe than sorry.  There is a lot of poverty and ill feelings pent up in the Caribbean. 

Surprisingly, I would not classify Aruba as one such island, even though they had that awful cheerleader incident.  A very sad and tragic event indeed. 

There is poverty and ill will on the Hawaiian Islands as well.  If you searched, you could find Hawaiians that hate mainlanders.  But it's limited to certain areas.  It doesn't feel like a majority opinion like it does in the Caribbean.  For the most part in Hawaii, you are as safe at 1AM as you were at 1PM.  Unfortunately, the same can not be said for most of the Caribbean.


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## Transit

I like both places but hate the plane ride to Hawaii from the east coast if I were on the west coast I'd choose Hawaii.


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## falmouth3

I have been to Maui once and we loved it.  We kept ourselves busy and never were bored.  I can't say that for our shorter Caribbean trips.

However, as far as snorkeling, we have been snorkeling in several locations in the Caribbean and found it far better every time than snorkeling around Maui.  I don't know if our observations are similar to others.


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## johnmfaeth

I haven't been to Hawaii yet but have visited many Caribbean Islands.

I'll start by saying Hawaii seems almost magical from the many travel shows I've watched and 20 years of getting a half dozen travel mags. I can certainly appreciate why so many love it.

Each island in the Caribbean has its own personality which is very different based upon the individual history.

St. John is absolute paradise and has virtually zero crime. Probably because land values have made the native families (in general) far wealthier than the ex-pat residents (who are still doing well enough to pay $1.5 million for a 3 bedroom house). No economic issues = no crime.

St. Thomas has two faces. That which is "assaulted" by 5,000 to 10,000 daily cruise passengers and that which is off their path. Spend a day at Hull Bay or Secret Harbor with a dozen or two other beachgoers and you'll see the real St. Thomas, complete with world class snorkelling. I guess the same can be said for Trunk Bay on St. John which has a thousand visitors by 11 AM (mostly bussed in cruise ship types) while the next bay in either direction has 30 people.  

Aruba is another great island with almost no crime, great beaches, great restaurants. But it's a desert island and not very naturally pretty.

St. Maarten has great beaches, great restaurants, and great beauty but poverty (mainly on the French side) means it's impossible to rent a car without seeing evidence of a break in attempt in just one week. But no one is getting mugged in the streets. Again, take a drive to the beaches above Cupecoy and they are pristine with the entire beach to yourself most days. Good luck walking through downtown when two cruise ships are in port. It's like Times Square in NYC.

One Caribbean issue is the cruise ships have turned the ports in "clone" shopping areas, agree fully with the earlier posting. 

My point is every Caribbean island has places which are incredible and waiting to be discovered. You usually have to go the opposite direction as the cruise ship people to find them. But the rewards are priceless.

I will intentionally leave Jamaica out of this one. The people truly dislike tourists, probably the result of centuries of colonialism that were (almost) ended in our lifetimes, but continue economically.

And let's be frank...the stereotype of the "ugly" american tourist did not invent itself. Most caribbean folks are raised very proper, they want a full good morning or good afternoon before continuing, not a 'hi". Failing that test brings out the worst in them from my experiences. That doesn't help at all. Nor does the far too frequently expressed habit some visitors have of talking "down" to the "help". It's a respect thing. 

Not making excuses, just trying to share my experiences. Good and bad everywhere...

John


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## Sooby

We have been to several Caribbean Islands and would not return to some & St Thomas is one of them. We actually paid to tour the Island and be scolded for hours about the ugliness of the wealthy.  Never again!  As for St. John I think it is OK.  St. Lucia is very nice and much friendlier.  The Windjammer Landing was great there.  Aruba is very pleasant and we felt very safe even at night. Unfortunately the place we stayed is no longer there- The Royal Palm Club which was very nice.  We definitely would go back to these two Islands.  We love Hawaii. The Big Island is my favorite because of the Parker Ranch steaks and easy roads to get around. We love staying at the Hilton Waikoloa Village and will be staying next month at the HGVC's new timeshare which has access to the Hilton facilities.  That is absolutely the best vacation for us even if the flight is long!   Good Luck with whatever Island you choose.   Sooby


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## LisaRex

One of the main reasons I prefer Hawaii over the Caribbean is that Hawaii gets hit with far fewer hurricanes.  2005 was a horrific year for those who lived and vacationed in the Caribbean.  I believe it started very early (June?) and lasted through November.  Oy!

The Weather Channel has made it worse; every tropical depression is tracked and you have no idea whether you're watching a hurricane in its infancy or just a bad rainstorm and so you have no idea whether to cancel reservations/flights or just go with the flow.  (Friends of mine went to Cancun knowing that a tropical depression was making its way into the Gulf of Mexico.  Sure enough, a huge hurricane struck right in the middle of their vacation and they were stranded for several days at a shelter.)


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## fnover

Transit said:


> I like both places but hate the plane ride to Hawaii from the east coast if I were on the west coast I'd choose Hawaii.



I would rather fly for 10 hours to Hawaii then the shorter flight to the Caribbean In our limited experience with the Caribbean (St. Thomas, Bahamas, Dominican Republic and Jamaica) it doesn't compare to Hawaii.


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## johnmfaeth

Hi LisaRex,

Actually, if you go to www.stormcarib.com you will find that the Eastern Caribbean was unaffected by hurricanes last year. St. Maarten for example had one tropical storm pass by last year but hasn't seen a hurricane since 2000.

Same can be said for the Virgin Islands, St. Lucia, etc.

Aruba hasn't seen a major storm in 45 years. Neither has Bonaire or Curacao, it's Southern Caribbean cousins.

The poor folks in Mexico and some of the Western Caribbean did have a tough one. 

Most people don't realize, there are really three Caribbeans from a historical weather perspective. 

Take a look at the storm data, you may find it interesting.


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## bigfrank

If I were to go and stay in just one place I would pick St Johns hands down. If I wanted to do more time and Island hop I might go with Hawaii but might still go with St Johns because you have the rest of the US Virgin Islands. I like St Croix as well.


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## jehb2

*Soooo...which island should I go to*

This is a great thread.  We go to Hawaii every year (sometimes twice) and it just hasn't gotter boring.  But I have been thinking that we should probably try the Carribbean.  But everytime I read I walk away confused about which island I should go to.  This thread has been very helpful, but with all the wonderful information I'm still confused.   

Which islands are A, AA, and AAA.


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## Quimby4

*Thanks!*

Thanks for all of the great input.  Many of you have reaffirmed my thoughts about Hawaii.  We are planning on going to Kauai in 2008 pending a good exchange, but we usually get lucky!

I think in a few years, when the kids are older and can endure the long flight, we will have to try an exchange into Westin St. John which I hear is next to impossible.  So if it ever works out then it is meant to be, or not.

I would love to hear more about St. John..

I was really interested in Atlantis but from what I have read on TUGS and tripadvisor, Atlantis just sounds too big, crowded, and expensive for our style.  We are casual beach people who prefer not to have to fight for a chair on the beach or at the pool. 

Thanks again for all the great ideas!!


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## DavidnRobin

I second the St John comment - do not lump St Thomas (STT) with STJ - even though they are within spitting distance from one another.  2/3 of STJ is a protected National Park - no other Carib Island has such protected space.   If you like beaches, good food, and open space for hiking - STJ is great - if you are going for nitelife and gold then STJ is not the place.

The Carib and Hawaii are very different - there are a lot of very poor people on the Carib Islands - mix that with the large crowded islands and you will not likely want to leave the resort unless you are a brave-type (e.g. Jamaica)- otherwise, most of them are worth visiting.

WSJ is a great resort - no chair hourding and no reason to.

Check out VINOW.COM


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## bhrungo

"*St. John is absolute paradise and has virtually zero crime. *"
(trying to quote someone, didn't work)



St. John is a beautiful island.  My Husband and I lived on St John back in the 90's.  We moved away *because of the crime*!  Don't get me wrong, the resorts are for the most part safe, but I wouldn't even go in to town by myself during the DAY sometimes.  Have seen too many weird things happen.  We always felt safe at work, (the Hyatt Regency, which is now the Westin)

I would love to go back for a vacation, but would NEVER live there again.
On the other hand, we LOVE Hawaii and would vacation there or live there and feel much safer.


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## Quimby4

DavidnRobin said:


> I second the St John comment - do not lump St Thomas (STT) with STJ - even though they are within spitting distance from one another.  2/3 of STJ is a protected National Park - no other Carib Island has such protected space.   If you like beaches, good food, and open space for hiking - STJ is great - if you are going for nitelife and gold then STJ is not the place.
> 
> The Carib and Hawaii are very different - there are a lot of very poor people on the Carib Islands - mix that with the large crowded islands and you will not likely want to leave the resort unless you are a brave-type (e.g. Jamaica)- otherwise, most of them are worth visiting.
> 
> WSJ is a great resort - no chair hourding and no reason to.
> 
> Check out VINOW.COM



DavidnRobin, that is exactly what we like beaches, open space, hiking, good food and relaxing!!  We don't care about nitelife or shopping!!  Great info.


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## KOR5Star

Quimby4 said:


> DavidnRobin, that is exactly what we like beaches, open space, hiking, good food and relaxing!!  We don't care about nitelife or shopping!!  Great info.


I highly recommend hiring a guide and don't find yourself away from the resort or the resturant area too late into the evening.

I beg to differ about the safety of St John.  After the post about zero crime, I felt it important to repeat that one needs to be on the lookout there.

Look, I was born in Manhattan.  I've lived and worked in the MetroNY area my entire life.  I was in the Army - 101st Airborne.  I'm a pilot (fixed wing and rotory), brown belt (never made it to black before giving up ), etc...  I don't get spooked easily.  I know when I need to turn the "RADAR" on and I know when it's OK to relax.  Believe me, you better have the RADAR on when you're on St John.

Also keep in mind that these islands derive big dollars from tourism.  They go out of their way to "massage" the crime statistics for this reason.  Walt Disney World had zero crime and no one died for decades.  That was because everyone was taken off property before being charged or issued a death certificate.  And that crap was happening here in the United States, where everything MUST be reported.  Just imagine what's happening to the statistics in a US territory or foreign country.  IMHO, any of their statistics are more than just unreliable... they are total garbage.

That being said... The Westin St John is an awesome resort.


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## reddiablosv

I own timeshares in both and vacation in both and can't decide where I want to retire. Each are beautiful and each are different but similar. I love them both. Ben


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## bhrungo

KOR5Star said:


> I highly recommend hiring a guide and don't find yourself away from the resort or the resturant area too late into the evening.
> 
> I beg to differ about the safety of St John.  After the post about zero crime, I felt it important to repeat that one needs to be on the lookout there.
> 
> Look, I was born in Manhattan.  I've lived and worked in the MetroNY area my entire life.  I was in the Army - 101st Airborne.  I'm a pilot (fixed wing and rotory), brown belt (never made it to black before giving up ), etc...  I don't get spooked easily.  I know when I need to turn the "RADAR" on and I know when it's OK to relax.  Believe me, you better have the RADAR on when you're on St John.
> 
> Also keep in mind that these islands derive big dollars from tourism.  They go out of their way to "massage" the crime statistics for this reason.  Walt Disney World had zero crime and no one died for decades.  That was because everyone was taken off property before being charged or issued a death certificate.  And that crap was happening here in the United States, where everything MUST be reported.  Just imagine what's happening to the statistics in a US territory or foreign country.  IMHO, any of their statistics are more than just unreliable... they are total garbage.
> 
> That being said... The Westin St John is an awesome resort.



Well said..ALWAYS keep your radar on, even during the day!!!!


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## johnmfaeth

Hi KOR5Star,

I too was born in Manhattan on East 14th Street and Avenue C, just 1 block from the local methadone clinic and later moved to Queens. Worked in NYC for 25 years and experienced the juiciest of neighborhoods in my early 20's during 4 years working with Tax Enforcement with the NYC Dept. of Finance.

Of course always keep your guard up. But in 15 trips to the USVI, and a total time of over 3 months staying on St. John alone. I must say, I have never witnessed or seen any crime on that island except for obnoxious tourists. I have stayed at the Westin, Sunset Ridge and numerous rental houses. About once a year, their will be a few property crime incidents, followed by the arrest of someone, usually a non-St. Johanian. 

St. Thomas and St. Croix have 20 times the crime and even then, it is largely local on local property crimes or domestic disputes. The one place on St. John that attracts any issues is Trunk Bay where tourist bags left unattended can disappear, even then, and it's always a St. Thomas person who came over on the ferry who's busted.

If you look at the website of the Virgin Island Daily News 

www.virginislandsdailynews.com

You will find about 10-15 weekly "incidents" each on St. Thomas and St. Croix
and nothing on St. John. St. Thomas gets 6,000 - 10,000 visitors per day just from the cruise ships and is much more important to "protect" with skewed figures.

The joke amongst ex-pats living on St. John is that if you cheat on your wife in Coral Bay, all of Cruz Bay will know before you get there (after a 20 minute drive). It is really a small town atmosphere with wealthy locals due to land values. Having only 4,000 residents and being 3/4 national park helps a lot.

I have been to a dozen Caribbean islands and only Aruba comes close when it comes to low crime.

John

PS. Crime comes with poverty, there is no poverty on St. John, frankly, there's no middle class either. The real estate has been 2-3 times more expensive that St. Thomas for 20 years. It's like discussing crime on Marco or Sanibel Islands in Florida.


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## KOR5Star

johnmfaeth said:


> Crime comes with poverty, there is no poverty on St. John, frankly, there's no middle class either. The real estate has been 2-3 times more expensive that St. Thomas for 20 years. It's like discussing crime on Marco or Sanibel Islands in Florida.


I've been to St John several times.  Clearly not as much as you, but I definitely saw poverty there... unless rich people are using derelict cars for storage in their mostly dirt front yards lately.  

I hate to put a fly in your ointment, but you are simply dead wrong about the population of St John.  Simply because a place has mostly wealthy people does not mean it has no middle class, no under class, no poverty and "zero" crime.    

Although you may have been there a lot, you certainly have cast a blind eye to things that are readily visible to others.  It must be nice to see only that which you want to see.  One only needs to take the island taxi tour to see what I'm talking about.  Perhaps you never drive that way.

I fear I'm painting an ugly picture of St John.  Much uglier than I'd like to.  That's not what I want to do.  But you are painting such a misrepresentation of St John, that I, as someone that has been to the island many times, need to counterpoint.

It's great that you love the island as much as you clearly do.  I would suggest to anyone that St John is a nice place to visit.  But you go over the top in your representation of safety on that island.


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## johnmfaeth

Let's both agree that we love St. John. The cars in the front yard are absolutely correct, Particular in the neighboorhood between downtown Cruz Bay and the Westin. Even a couple going south of the Westin towards Rendevous.

But those same houses going south of the Westin are worth a million dollars.

The "poorest" section of the entire island is the 3 or 4 blocks to the west of Jacob's Ladder between the new Ferry area and Gallow's Point. Even then, the houses are owner occupied. There is so much employment for locals that hundreds of staff just for the Westin and Caneel are brought in each day by ferry. Construction is also very busy and has many jobs.

Ever been to Ms. Vie's snack shack around 2 miles east of Skinny Legs on Route 10 in Hansen Bay? It truly is a wood shack. Her decent but modest house is 75 feet behind the shack and has about 2 dozen chickens running around. Couple of old cars sitting out front too (belong to her grandkids).

Ms. Vie and family own all 70 acres of Hansen Bay. What's 70 times at least $500,000 per acre?

Don't judge the book by it's cover, that's not an attack. Just something that very easy to do, the locals live very humbly.

But I repeat I respect your opinion, I have just seen otherwise. It's sad that the same is very untrue for St. Thomas and St. Croix. 

Perhaps the best solution is we meet at Skinny Legs and hang with some locals as I buy you a beer. That is the place to learn the "dirt" of what's happening on island, good and bad...


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## KOR5Star

johnmfaeth said:


> Let's both agree that we love St. John.
> ...
> we meet at Skinny Legs and hang with some locals as I buy you a beer.



AGREED!!! :whoopie:


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## taffy19

This is the most interesting thread I have read so far about the Islands on the East and West coast (a sort of).     We only know the Hawaiian Islands and love them but one day, I want to see the Caribbean Islands too.  I really want to come and judge for myself and snorkel in that warm water.  Hawaiian water is too cool for my taste.


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## Jahosacat

I've been to several islands in the Caribbean and have been in Hawaii. I love both areas. Hawaii may not depend as much on tourism as Caribbean islands, but, it is a big $$$$$. You always need to take your common sense with you on vacations and then you'll have a good time. You also need to remember that except for St John and St Thomas you are traveling out of the United States and it's laws and protections.

For me the deciding factor is the travel factor. Much cheaper and easier for me to go to the Caribbean than Hawaii. Food costs seemed to average out in both areas.


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## johnmfaeth

I don't want to leave anyone with the wrong impression. You must be aware of your surroundings anywhere you go. IMHO, St. John is very safe, some theft at Trunk Bay. St. Thomas and St. Croix are average like St. Maarten, Barbardos, etc. 

Everywhere with humans and poverty has crime. Some are high crime islands like the Dominican Republic and Jamaica, the solution is to just stay at the resort. Don't even think about Haiti :ignore: 

Most are relatively safe with some common sense. Don't go walking around downtown late at night for example.

Never been to Hawaii, want to go, but I watch "Dog the Bounty Hunter" on TV regularly (he works in Hawaii) and I see some juicy things there too unfortunately. This is our world...


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## DavidnRobin

KOR5Star said:


> I highly recommend hiring a guide and don't find yourself away from the resort or the resturant area too late into the evening.
> 
> I beg to differ about the safety of St John.  After the post about zero crime, I felt it important to repeat that one needs to be on the lookout there.
> 
> ...
> 
> That being said... The Westin St John is an awesome resort.



I just found this thread again - there is definitely crime in STJ, but a guide because of danger? (did I read that correctly?)  I don't agree if that is the case.  I don't even think you need a guide to get around (perhaps a taxi if driving on the left with a steering wheel on the left-hand side is an issue).  KEEP LEFT!

Not only the Westin resort is great (we own there), but the entire island is fantastic.  People there give respect when they are given respect (like most places), but in STJ and most of the Carib it is formal respect - as John said - you better say 'Good Morning/Evening' (not 'Hi') with small talk before you ask for anything, and want politeness in return - and not be in a hurry to be certain.  The island woman have a strange character about them - they can treat you like a misbehaving child if you do something wrong. I misplaced the rental car keys once and I felt like I was going to be spanked.  

I reported a while a go a very publicized crime where a Westin guest met up with a shovel while walking back from Cruz Bay at 2AM!  Obviously - this guy made a hugh mistake - of course you can't leave your guard down (and certainly not walking home alone drunk at 2AM), but STJ is very safe (RELATIVELY).   I read the crime section on the STJ paper (Tradewinds) on a regular basis - most crime there is domestic in nature - with minor theft.

I love both Hawaii (we own there also) and STJ - funny how Hawaii is being lumped as one place - HI is very diverse, and has TONS of crime also.

In addition to STJ, I have been to all of the BVI Islands, STT, PR, Antigua, St Kitts, Nevus, Grenada, St Vincent and the Grenadines - my opinion is that I felt the most unsafe in PR, STT and Antigua, but that is relative - all safer than most (if not all) US mainland cities.


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## Neesie

johnmfaeth said:


> I don't want to leave anyone with the wrong impression. You must be aware of your surroundings anywhere you go. IMHO, St. John is very safe, some theft at Trunk Bay. St. Thomas and St. Croix are average like St. Maarten, Barbardos, etc.
> 
> Everywhere with humans and poverty has crime. Some are high crime islands like the Dominican Republic and Jamaica, the solution is to just stay at the resort. Don't even think about Haiti :ignore:
> 
> Most are relatively safe with some common sense. Don't go walking around downtown late at night for example.
> 
> Never been to Hawaii, want to go, but I watch "Dog the Bounty Hunter" on TV regularly (he works in Hawaii) and I see some juicy things there too unfortunately. This is our world...



Please don't judge all of the Hawaiian Islands by 'Dog the Bounty Hunter'.  On Kauai there are no high rises, 4 lane freeways, and only a handful of traffic lights.  I can't speak for the other islands, but Kauai is a far cry from "Dog."


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## KOR5Star

DavidnRobin said:


> I just found this thread again - there is definitely crime in STJ, but a guide because of danger? (did I read that correctly?)  I don't agree if that is the case.


:rofl: 
Yeah, I guess that came out wrong.

I'm a big believer in guides.  I hire one almost anywhere I go.  I advocate getting a personal instructor for the day when surfing, skiing, etc...  You'll see many more things with a guide than you could ever see without one.  A personal surfing instructor will know where the great waves are for that day.  You'll ski more great trails and not wait on any lift lines with a personal ski instructor.  

Hiring someone just supercharges the experience wherever you go.  You're guarenteed to see all the highlights and some really great stuff that most people miss.  You know you'll be treated as a welcomed and honored guest just about anywhere you go with the guide.  It's just sooo worth it. Yeah, it costs money, but the value you get for that extra money is far, far away worth every penny.

It's the same thing for timeshare, right?  We pay more than our condo renting bretheren, but the convenience and enhancing experience of staying in a 5 Star Resort and Spa are worth the extra dollars.  It always seems the value of those last dollars spent, on top of the base costs for everything, offer the highest value of all.

One of the many reasons to hire a guide, but not the primary one, is security.  A guide knows the area and will not lead you into trouble.  They know where to go and where to stay away from.  I can let my guard down almost completely while with a guide and just enjoy the moment with my family.

So it's true I believe a guide enhances one's security in an unfamiliar place, but I primarily recommend it to enhance the experience.  You can relax.  You don't have to worry about what to see, your schedule, where to eat, etc...  

Security is just a side benefit, albeit an important one.  But I would not recommend hiring a guide just for security.


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## johnmfaeth

Hi Neesie,

I certainly do not judge Hawaii from Dog the Bounty Hunter. If I did, it might even be a positive. He does not carry a gun and would live about a week doing that in a mainland inner city.

I truly want to visit Hawaii and spend a good deal of time there. From all the mags and shows I've watched (and many movies). It looks like a fantastic place and I'll even concede natural beauty over the Caribbean after dozens of trips there.

John


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## alanraycole

*I traveled to Paradise Island in the Bahamas when I was 18...*

I told myself that if the Bahamas represented the Caribbean, I never needed to go back. But, I have often thought about trying it again. After all, what does an 18 year old know! After this thread, I think, maybe, I was right the first time.

I have been to Hawaii many times, including Kauai, Oahu, Molokai, Maui, and the Big Island. I can never get enough. I also travel to Florida often when I want somewhere warm, but don't want to spend a whole day in a crowded jet.

I guess my question is... Is there any place in the Caribbean that I just have to see before I die? Or, if I am willing to endure the 12 plus hour flight to Hawaii, should I just keep going to where I know I will be happy? Is there anywhere in the Caribbean that even comes close to the extravagant beauty of Hawaii?


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## Tiger

Before we bought our timeshare in Kauai we visited Martinique for 10 spring vacations.  It's a great island.  Creole/french tropical culture.  Fort de France is a fine french colonial town with great 19th century architecture.  Historical sites:  the town of St Pierre that was destroyed, like Pompei, by a volcanoe:  the plantation birth palce, La Plagerie (sp ?) of Josephine, Napoleon's 1st wife, old rum distillerys with attached plantation houses.  Fine Botanical Gardens.  Absolutely beautiful beaches.  Great hiking up the volcano Mt. Pele and through the rain forest.  Fine dining (French,Creole,Island combination)  Great Caribbean music with a "native dance troup".  But be forwarned the French women frequently spend their time on the beaches without the tops of their Bikinis  

So why did we switch?  We've now been to Hawaii 10 springs.  I found the caribbean temperatures about 5-10 degrees too hot for me.  Nothing can be done between 11 am and 2pm.  The sun is toxic.  For a number of visits that was fine.  The lodging is quite expensive.  We tried renting condos but found that the quality in our price range was inadequate.  And the island was a little small for 3 week vacations yearly.  I've looked into exchanging but the timeshare in Martinique doesn't get good reviews.


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## alanraycole

*Has anyone been to Dominica?*

I have read about the Caribbean and the island that sounds most like Kauai is Dominica. But, there are no timeshares there and from what I have read, there are very few resorts there of any kind. But, it looks beautiful. I would love to hear what any who have been there have to say.

(I am talking about Dominia, not the Dominican Republic.  It is between Martinique and Guadeloupe.)


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## PClapham

How does Mexico compare with Hawaii/ Caribbean?  Cozumel, etc. for snorkeling, scenery, food, people?  I know Hawaii and Mexico, but nothing about the Caribbean.
Thanks
Anita


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## lprstn

I love Hawaii!  In my travels I keep going back to Hawaii, because although its Islandy it still feels like home.  Most of the Carribean Islands have seriously poor areas and I hate paying so much money to get someplace only to be trapped on the resort.  However, I say go to all of these places to judge for yourself.  I am still planing Carribean vacations along with my every 3 year Hawaii trips, just to experience something different for myself.


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## mepiccolo

My husband and I are not good "travelers" so there is nowhere we'd be willing to take a 12 hour flight to...thank God Hawaii is only 5 hours away!  We go to a Hawaiian Island 2-3 weeks of the year and we can't see ourselves getting sick of it.  We love the "Aloha" spirit of the Hawaiian islands.  Is there anything similar to that in the carribean?  The other thing that keeps us going to Hawaii is that it is in the United States and we feel safe there.  There is something to be said for being "protected" by American laws.

I've only been to Cancun when I was 18 and the sand was white baby powder and the water was beautiful.  Tourists back then were treated fantastic, but this was over 20 years ago so I don't know how it is now.  My sister actually prefers Cancun over Maui (she thinks the difference in the cost is not worth how much more it is to vacation in Hawaii-I disagree).  Plus I absolutely hated the food in Cancun which was nothing like the fantastic Mexican food we have here in California.  Having small children I just would rather not take them out of the country while they are small.


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## Jan

When we lived in Washington State-we made many trips to Hawaii.  Now we live in Florida and have seen many Carribbean Islands.  Hawaii wins it by far!
We leave in April for 3 weeks in Kauai--so that will make the long plane trip worth it!.. Can hardly wait.
              Jan

But then.........our beaches here in Destin are the BEST of all of them!


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## hibbert6

*Probably the wrong 'board...*

You might get more unbiased opinions if you ask the same questions on the Caribbean board.  Here, you're dealing with those who LOVE Hawaii and either own there, want to own there or are already planning a visit.  (And most of us fit 2 of the 3!)

If you go to the Caribbean board, the respondents will be TS'ers who own, wish to own or plan to visit the Caribbean Islands. (and probably 2 out of 3 there, too!)  Try asking there, and let us know what they have to say!

I've been to both several times.  I LOVE the turquoise Caribbean waters.  But I have to be cautious. When I go to Hawaii, I feel like the residents are equals. I feel safe.  And as for snorkelling, you just have to know the right spots!  

Dave


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## johnmfaeth

*Update on St. John in Particular*

Sorry that this posting is very specific in a general thread but I unfortuately must post this to change some statements that I posted last May in this thread.

I did go to the USVI four times on business trips since late May, flew in last night from the latest.

St. John has had some issues in the last 6 months. First, the owner of a Coral Bay restaurant was robbed when leaving with the evenings sales proceeds.

Additionally, there have now been some muggings in Cruz Bay, these also seem to occur late at night and mostly were against late night partiers. (The place is packed during the normal evening hours in general).

The local Johanians, as they are called, state that the problem is the large influx of immigrants (largely illegal) from Trinidad, Dominica, and Jamaica in the last several years. It is true that US Immigration has done some very large "busts" and deportations in the USVI during that same time.

There may be some truth there, but I also think some of the criminal types on St. Thomas may have "discovered" new territory on St. John in addition to immigrants.

Regardless of cause, caution should always be exercised in off hours in remote locations, even on St. John.

Crime rates are still very low, but they exist.


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## PA-

I've only been to Hawaii thrice, so am by no means an expert.  Honolulu and Maui are the extent of my experiences.  I'm not a big beach person, I'll admit.  But my opinion is that the better beaches and clearer water are in the Caribbean.  I wasn't overly impressed with Hawaii.

I spent 10 days on St. Thomas, and felt like everyone there would have preferred I sent my money to them and stayed away.  I won't go back, though it was stunningly beautiful.  On the other hand, the Mexican Riviera and even over-crowded Cancun have everything I would care for in a beach vacation.  Friendly people who like Americans, nice resorts, fabulous beaches, calm warm crystal clear water, great diving and snorkeling, nice golf, ancient ruins, etc.  And the food away from the tourist areas is great and relatively inexpensive.  At the tourist areas, it can be as pricey as anyplace.  Of course, I'm aware of all the wars going on between the drug cartels and police in Mexico, and the corruption of the police.  While it generally doesn't happen in cancun or the riviera, it's dampened my desire to visit mexico.  I guess it's a good thing I'm not a beach person.

If I were going someplace I haven't been, I think I'd research Turks/Caicos (sic?), Puerto Rico and DR.  I've also heard nice things about St. Maartin


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## PA-

PClapham said:


> How does Mexico compare with Hawaii/ Caribbean?  Cozumel, etc. for snorkeling, scenery, food, people?  I know Hawaii and Mexico, but nothing about the Caribbean.
> Thanks
> Anita




Snorkeling is much better in Mexico, in general, than Hawaii.  Food is much better.  And there couldn't be friendlier people on the planet than Mexicans.


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## mepiccolo

PA- said:


> Snorkeling is much better in Mexico, in general, than Hawaii.  Food is much better.  And there couldn't be friendlier people on the planet than Mexicans.



In Cancun and in Cabo San Lucas, I have to agree that was my experience as well.  I literally had a tour guide on an ATV trip give me the shirt off his back because I was cold.  They know their economy exists because of tourist money and they treat their "guests" accordingly.  However, in Tijuana, across the border from California, where so many people go to get wasted and act like drunken fools for the weekend, I don't think they are as appreciated.  No one likes people coming over and treating their homeland like a toilet, regardless of your wealth or lack of wealth.  I had wanted to buy a house on the beach in Baja California until a former co-worker told me her family owned such a home and her father was murdered by robbers when he went to check on the house over the weekend.  I know that could happen anywhere but, again, there's something to be said for staying within the safety of the states.


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## hibbert6

*Snorkel Where???*



PA- said:


> Snorkeling is much better in Mexico, in general, than Hawaii.  Food is much better.  And there couldn't be friendlier people on the planet than Mexicans.



We went on a cruise last summer that stopped in Jamaica, Grand Cayman Island and Cozumel.  We did snorkel tours at each location.  While the first two were OK, I was really looking forward to snorkelling Cozumel.  Imagine my disappointment when the guide said "Sorry there's not much to see as the Hurricane last year pretty much took out the reef."  So instead, he hopped into the water with us and brought along fish food so that we'd have something to look at.  It felt pretty bogus.

I had heard that Cozumel was the ultimate Mexican snorkel spot.  Are there better places?

Thanks!

Dave


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## daventrina

*Many*



hibbert6 said:


> I had heard that Cozumel was the ultimate Mexican snorkel spot. Are there better places?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dave


Hawaii and Hawaii, The VIs, Barbados, Grenada, Bonaire, Bahamas. Did I mention Hawaii?
Cozumel is best for its deep reefs that would have been untouched by the storms for the most part. 

Just did a cruise that covered the entire Caribbean, and while we visited many nice places, to us, Hawaii feels like home. The land of the ALOHA spirit.


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## coppersmom1

*Tossing my opinion in here...*

We've been fortunate to have traveled to Hawaii (every island) as well as many Caribbean islands and Mexico over the last 23 or so years. We now own in Hawaii (timeshare) and living where we do makes it an easy trip to get there.

Having said that- we save up our money and every few years do the trip to St. John, because we simply love it. We stay at Gallows Point Resort and have friends from New York who own a unit there and we usually all go at the same time so we can spend some (but not all) time together. We love Hawaii because of it's character and beauty but we love St. John as well- for different reasons. Like being able to go to a beach and decide it's too crowded for us when there's maybe 20 people there- early morning mind you. For the incredible snorkeling, and for the friends- locals- we've made on the island after having been there a few times. There's a locals "dive" kind of bar on St. John, but we've made friends over the years with the owner. We get greeted with a hug each time we walk in the door. Does she want ALL the tourists in there? She says no- she's happy the way things are. She feels the ones that do come in feel good about it, comfortable with the locals want to immerse themselves into the true life of the island.She calls the ones who come from the mainland US "continentals".

On the other hand we have friends who have much different taste in vacationing than we do. They'd NOT enjoy St. John. They love a nice and very controlled environment- like an all-inclusive in Jamaica (which we have zero interest in). An all inclusive in Cancun (no interest for us here either). They went to St. Thomas and liked it- stayed on site of their hotel the whole time. They love Palm Springs, we don't. My point in it all is simply that I guess it's mostly a matter of taste. We love going out for a drive on our own and discovering our out little treasured spots along the way, which they would never do- they prefer "excursions", preplanned and with a group. They're not right, nor are we right- we're just different, and for me that's what makes the world go around! And like we're different from our friends, most people on here have their own likes and dislikes, thus making some places better than others for each individual.

And John- should you ever want to meet up at Skinny Legs and discuss the politics on the island- we'd be more than happy to do so with you! Maybe we could talk you into a trip to Hawaii sometime too...since you love St. John we can talk about good spots for you. You help so many others on here it would be nice for us to be able to share some info with you.


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## Cathyb

Just returned from St. Maarten and Aruba; go to Maui every year in July.  IMHO - What we found in both Caribbean islands is the 'layback' attitude.  We were given a car in Aruba that got a flat, right in the timeshare's parking lot on first day. We waited a half day for the car rental guy to come (promises of 45 min.) and then he charged us $80 for the new tire. On SXM it was the lack of traffic rules in Simpson Bay area.  We saw NO traffic signals and people parked blocking the two lane roads. If you weren't an aggressive driver, good luck at intersections!   In the Hawaiian Islands (for the most part) they follow rules and are courteous when driving.  As for beauty -- we have seen at least a dozen Carribean islands over the years and I think they may have a slight edge over the Hawaiian islands.


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## KauaiMark

*Reason to follow the rules...*



Cathyb said:


> ...Hawaiian Islands (for the most part) they follow rules and are courteous when driving..



We were driving in Kauai a couple of year back when we came up to a section of road that was posted at 10mph in a desolate area of two lane blacktop road.

I was following (...and complaining) about the guy in front of me doing maybe 13mph for going too slow.

That pretty much ended when a cop stepped out of the weeds, into the road and signaled the guy over for speeding. He had a RADAR GUN!

Obey the traffic rules. It's Hawaii's most profitable cash crop.


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## Quimby4

PA- said:


> Snorkeling is much better in Mexico, in general, than Hawaii.  Food is much better.  And there couldn't be friendlier people on the planet than Mexicans.



We did honeymoon in Cozumel in 1998.  The Scuba was great !!  The coral was much deeper near our resort off the Palancar reef so we didn't snorkel.  We loved the scuba.  Most reorts on Cozumel are all inclusive because the town is very small as is the whole island.  We did rent a car and drive into town oneday, ate lunch at Papa's and Beer and returned to the resort.  We liked the activities that the all inclusive offered, onsite restaurants, drinks etc.  I would consider Cozumel again...


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