# New "deal" from developer orlando svo



## norag (Mar 28, 2008)

O.K. guys I'm the one that bought on ebay and got ripped off and am now down in VV with all the information knowing #1 never buy from developer and # 2 never buy voluntary....
so with that I leave the sales meeting 4 hours later doing what I said I wouldn't do. So here's the deal...
The sheraton had some foreclosures offering for sale at visatana fountains (refurbished) 2bdrm 1 wk 76000 staroptions for 12,000. We bought 2. to give us 152,000 staroptions 1-52 with gold card and 152,000 starpoints. 
Was this a horrible deal or was I scammed again. I'm not that concerned about resale and I have the points option if needed. Also don't have to worry about being scammed off ebay...
Let me know what you think.
Thanks again,
Nora


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## grgs (Mar 28, 2008)

norag said:


> O.K. guys I'm the one that bought on ebay and got ripped off and am now down in VV with all the information knowing #1 never buy from developer and # 2 never buy voluntary....
> so with that I leave the sales meeting 4 hours later doing what I said I wouldn't do. So here's the deal...
> The sheraton had some foreclosures offering for sale at visatana fountains (refurbished) 2bdrm 1 wk 76000 staroptions for 12,000. We bought 2. to give us 152,000 staroptions 1-52 with gold card and 152,000 starpoints.
> Was this a horrible deal or was I scammed again. I'm not that concerned about resale and I have the points option if needed. Also don't have to worry about being scammed off ebay...
> ...



Well, if it truly does come with 152,000 StarOptions this would be a reasonable deal.  A Westin Kierland resale worth 148,100 StarOptions probably averages in the low 20s.  

However, I have never heard of StarOptions being attached to anything other than Lakes or Cascades units at Vistana.  I do not believe the other phases at Vistana are eligible for SVN.  I'm also think it a bit odd that the StarOption total would be 76,000 as that is not a figure that is commonly assigned in SVN.  Are you sure this is applies to both StarOptions & StarPoints?

Glorian


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## Westin5Star (Mar 28, 2008)

I am at Vistana now in the Cascades section; we have had a great week.  I talked to a guy yesterday that just bought on a 1 day special :hysterical: the same 2BR unit in the Fountains for $9,999.  He did not get any incentive of SPs as they said his rock bottom price was his incentive.  I didn't want to burst his bubble and tell him he could have bought the same thing on ebay for a few hundred dollars or less.  He did say that they waived the remodel assessments as part of the deal.  Did you get a good deal???


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## Bill4728 (Mar 28, 2008)

You may not have gotten a bad deal if in the process of buying at Vistana you got your first purchase retro'd into SVN.  

But I also have never heard of a purchase at Vistana in a phase other than  Lakes or Cascades being part of SVN.


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## SDKath (Mar 28, 2008)

Nora, 

I think you got scammed again, by Starwood this time.  I don't think what you bought participates in SVN.  Maybe they offered you StarPOINTS as a one time incentive.  But last I checked (last week actually), only Lakes and Cascades have the whole Staroption program.  Easy to check -- just call the 800 number for Starwood sales and ask someone.  

Also be ware because in a year or so, those units will have about $1500 in special assessments.  They can't even give away those units these days.

Be ready to rescind!  PM me if you want more info about a unit that DOES participate in SVN and has Mandatory SOs because I have one that I will likely pass on purchasing (not mine so hopefully this is not construed as an ad).

Katherine


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## grgs (Mar 28, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Also be ware because in a year or so, those units will have about $1500 in special assessments.  They can't even give away those units these days.



I believe Fountains is one of the phases that is currently undergoing renovation.  There shouldn't be special assessments in the near term, as they have already been assessed.  I would confirm, though, that there won't be a second installment due in 2009.

Glorian


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## Transit (Mar 28, 2008)

The numbers seem off I would call you salesperson to clarify the section you bought and the staroptions for each week. Weather is it a standard 2 bedroom or 2 bed lockoff and the season you own.76000 sounds like starpoints for 2 purchases 152000 starpoints.If this is a Fountains unit I do not think you get any Staroptions with it.12,000 for a fountains unit is very high.


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## norag (Mar 28, 2008)

Yes this is a new incentive apparently after April 1st all fountain owners can be upgraded into svn. The renovations have been completed and the decision by the board of directors to join svn was made on march 17th.. Anyone with a resale deeded prior to march 31st can get the deal. staroptions range from 67000 to 76000 pts. 
They told us it rolled out only yesterday.
Nora
The star points are convertable at 44,000 pts per week 76,000 star option. It won't show up on the network until april 1st.


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## SDKath (Mar 28, 2008)

norag said:


> Yes this is a new incentive apparently after April 1st all fountain owners can be upgraded into svn. The renovations have been completed and the decision by the board of directors to join svn was made on march 17th.. Anyone with a resale deeded prior to march 31st can get the deal. staroptions range from 67000 to 76000 pts.
> They told us it rolled out only yesterday.
> Nora
> The star points are convertable at 44,000 pts per week 76,000 star option. It won't show up on the network until april 1st.



Oh I am such a pessimist!  Look at the contract and make sure it's in there.    Someone here can help perhaps with the wording to look for?  I know they really convolute the wording for SVN and the buyer's relationship within the system.  Perhaps someone at SVR Lakes or Cascades can chime in?

Katherine


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## norag (Mar 28, 2008)

Assuming that the developer is not being untruthful, then it is our understanding from all available documentation that as of April 1st, the Fountains, Fountains II and Vistana Beach Club (VBC) will all be offered the opportunity to join in the SVN (at no cost until Oct. 31st, and at $599 after that).  The decision was only made as of March 17th; and the units available from recent foreclosures make up the 'stock' available to the developer to sell.  

So what it comes down to is 2x76,000 (152,000) Star Options for under $25,000, with the addition of all 'bells and whistles', including a bonus of 132,000 Starwood Points, Gold SPG Membership, and the ability to convert Star Options to Starwood Points (76,000 SO=22,000 SP)

It seemed to us to be good value for the buck (for the Options), so... looking for some comments or reassurance on the purchase.  We do have 10 days under FLA law to rescind the whole deal (BUT still chasing our deposit on EBAY!!!).

Thanks in advance,

Nora


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## myip (Mar 29, 2008)

norag said:


> Assuming that the developer is not being untruthful, then it is our understanding from all available documentation that as of April 1st, the Fountains, Fountains II and Vistana Beach Club (VBC) will all be offered the opportunity to join in the SVN (at no cost until Oct. 31st, and at $599 after that).  The decision was only made as of March 17th; and the units available from recent foreclosures make up the 'stock' available to the developer to sell.
> 
> So what it comes down to is 2x76,000 (152,000) Star Options for under $25,000, with the addition of all 'bells and whistles', including a bonus of 132,000 Starwood Points, Gold SPG Membership, and the ability to convert Star Options to Starwood Points (76,000 SO=22,000 SP)
> 
> ...


 
Why not wait until April 1 to buy the unit?  This way, you are sure to be in the SVN network....  I am not sure whether I would want to spend 25K for 2 maintenance fees for Fountain Section.


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## readyalready (Mar 29, 2008)

Is the ability to get Starpoints that important to you?  I thought trading in for Spoints was considered very poor value.  Are you thinking you will mostly use these units or trade them for the Staroptions?   Are you trying to get to Elite status?

Long term I don't see how this is much of a deal.  You are paying a few thousand more than you would for a resale plat Kierland 2bd (find a reputable resale agent if you want to avoid ebay), plus paying two maintenance fees, is that $700 more every year than WKV would be?  Besides some units at SVR, what would having the extra 3900 Staroptions get you?  My impression is that renting at Vistana is quite inexpensive, I wonder if you could rent an extra unit the years you want to go for much less than the $2-3k extra up front plus $700 per year.  Is the option to join SVN only for original developer purchasers?  Isn't that what they did at Desert Oasis?  What happens on resale?

When I buy I like to think I won't get hosed if I ever decide to sell.  I'm not sure I believe that having the ability to join SVN is going to catapult the value of these units on the resale market, if that is even an option for resale buyers.  If you tried to sell these at any point, I think you'd get a small fraction of what you put in.  I think you could get out of a WKV with much less exposure.

I vote rescind.


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## norag (Mar 29, 2008)

We bought now because the first offering of these units was on Thursday, and by Friday, the price on most had gone up $4,000, from $12,500 to $16,500.  So with the realization that we have 10 days to rescind, it seemed like a better move to buy now, and review documentation on April 1st to confirm the developers claims.

152,000 SO per year, plus 132,000 SP (one time offer), Gold Status (SPG) and option to convert SO to SP didn't sound too bad.

Maintenance fees are $623 each. ($1,246 total per year).


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 29, 2008)

Is the ENTIRE deal in writing? Includng the Starpoints as a permanent, and not as a one time thing?

If not, you are being scammed. Not in writing = does not exist in reality.

Even in a new program is starting 4/1, get it in writing...


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## calgarygary (Mar 29, 2008)

norag said:


> We bought now because the first offering of these units was on Thursday, and by Friday, the price on most had gone up $4,000, from $12,500 to $16,500.  So with the realization that we have 10 days to rescind, it seemed like a better move to buy now, and review documentation on April 1st to confirm the developers claims.
> 
> 152,000 SO per year, plus 132,000 SP (one time offer), Gold Status (SPG) and option to convert SO to SP didn't sound too bad.
> 
> Maintenance fees are $623 each. ($1,246 total per year).



Is the amount that you were quoted for mf the total or have you been given just mf with taxes and svn membership (if it does apply) on top.  I trust that svn is mentioned in your contract and not just what the salesman said as there is no mention of vr other than lakes & cascades on the svn charts.


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## norag (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks Johns and Gary,

The entire offer is in writing, as we signed it in 28 different places!  The option to transfer SO to SP is permanent, at 22,000 for 76,000 SO.  The ONE TIME INCENTIVE for signing was 132,000.

Maintenance fee for both weeks is $1,246 ($623.45 each) and property taxes are $182 total (for both).

Annual Vistana Plus membership fee is $109 and includes the external exchange company membership.

As per some previous answers above, the Fountains (I and II) and Vistana Beach Club will be listed on SVN as of April 1st.

So... looking for some opinions...: Rescind or Keep?


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## grgs (Mar 29, 2008)

In the paperwork you signed is there a document called "Starwood Vacation Ownership Notification"?  That should list how many StarOptions/Starpoints the units are worth.  There also might be a document called "Starwood Vacation Network Owner Membership Agreement."  I think if both those documents are present, then Starwood may be doing something new by bringing the Fountains phase into SVN.  I wonder if the other refurbished phases in Vistana will follow?

Glorian


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## grgs (Mar 29, 2008)

norag said:


> staroptions range from 67000 to 76000 pts.
> They told us it rolled out only yesterday.
> Nora



Can you give a bit more info on this?  Which units are worth 67,000 options and which 76,000?  I'm guessing the 67,000 should really be 67,100?  I'm still perplexed by the 76,000 figure.  Did you get LO units?  If so, then I would think they should be valued at 81,000.  I think it would be odd for a non-LO 2 bd in the Fountains phase to have a higher value than one in the Cascades phase.

Glorian


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## norag (Mar 29, 2008)

On my chart there are 3 categories platinum 81,000; gold select 76,000 and gold plus 67,000.  Vistana beach club is going to be brought in to the svn also using the same system. At the bottom of the page in small print it says lakes/cascades will trade internally within the lks/casc homegroup as well but must pay with external staroptions when requesting a different phase at SVr ex: lakes/cascades will access vbc or ftn using platinum and gold plus staroptions. All SVR (ftn1, ftn11) and VBC owners will receive 76000 star options each year for network travel.


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## norag (Mar 29, 2008)

you're right 67,100. not 67,000.


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## grgs (Mar 29, 2008)

norag said:


> Maintenance fee for both weeks is $1,246 ($623.45 each) and property taxes are $182 total (for both).
> 
> Annual Vistana Plus membership fee is $109 and includes the external exchange company membership.
> 
> ...



I think it comes down to how concerned you are with resale value.  If there's chance that you might need/want to sell in the future, you're better off with a 2 bd plat Kierland.  

On the other hand, if you like the Starpoint conversion option, and are pretty sure you're not going to sell these units, then cost-wise, I think it's a draw.  I  think a resale Kierland (148,100 options) would run you around $22,000.  You've paid $24,000 for these Fountains units.  The Starpoint incentive I would value at about $2600 (2 cents/point).  

The mf on the 2 bd Kierland would run you about $300 less (2008 mf approx. $1207--includes SVN fee & taxes).  That fact, along with the resale value concern, would probably push me to the rescind side.

Of course, this is all assuming that these Fountains units will in fact have StarOptions.  If this is the case, this is a whole new direction for Starwood.    Rather clever on their part--the existing owners to pay to upgrade the units, and then Starwood has new SVN units to sell, and can invite the existing owners to buy their way into SVN.  

Glorian


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## norag (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm surprised that the star points are only worth 2 cents a point. Can't you get a fairly good room for about 10,000 per night and every 5th night free. so it should be arount 14 nights in a category 4 hotel. The sales guy also said that the svo resorts were now able to be purchased through pts.
However after 4 hrs I kinda stopped listening. He didn't like it when I brought up resale and the director said all their resorts being  built from now on will be voluntary. the option to get back into the system when buying resale is not a sure thing they don't have to do it and may increase the price they will require for upgading as time goes on!!


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## SDKath (Mar 29, 2008)

Great point about Kierland 2BR at 148,100 SOs.  Price is about $20,000 these days on resale and since it's M, you'll get that critical SO threshold for 2BR exchanges just about anywhere.  But no SPs option then.  And resale is much better at Kierland.

That said, if you are aiming to eventually go to 5* or want any sort of elite status at all, buying from the developer is key as your SOs will not apply otherwise (even from a M resort) toward elite status.

SPs of 44,000 is 2 nights in at Cat 6 I believe during mid week (20,000SPs for 1 night) so it really is not that much to write home about.  But, it opens up some nice options for Hotel travel and Cat 6 is usually super classy.

So far, I am saying stay with it.   

Katherine


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## SDKath (Mar 29, 2008)

Actually the more I think about it, the more this is going to make availability a nightmare for SO exchanges.  I would think just about everyone is going to use the SO system to try to exchange into more in-demand properties outside of Orlando.  Soooo those properties will have less availability.  

On the other hand, most people will not be exchanging INTO Fountains from other resorts as they are nicer (and you can always rent at Fountains for peanuts).

SO in the end, this is going to hurt the system IMHO.  Just an aside though.  Not related to your good deal.   

Katherine


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## norag (Mar 29, 2008)

I was looking at the one time incentive of 132,000 pts. I thought that would be worth more than 2600.00.


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## norag (Mar 29, 2008)

I agree with you Katherine, That's a lot of people in the system trying to get out of where they are and I get a little nervous as I will now be one of them! if i keep it. I have the exact numbers that will now move over from fountains to svo, but can't find it yet within the 30 plus papers I have in the package. Anyway when I find it I'll post it.
Thanks for all your advice,
Nora


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## nodge (Mar 29, 2008)

norag said:


> The entire offer is in writing, as we signed it in 28 different places!  The option to transfer SO to SP is permanent, at 22,000 for 76,000 SO.  The ONE TIME INCENTIVE for signing was 132,000.
> 
> Maintenance fee for both weeks is $1,246 ($623.45 each) and property taxes are $182 total (for both).
> 
> ...



It sounds like the good folks at Starwood are using their own, pre-cursor to SVN, back-door "Vistana Plus" system to bring those units into SVN.  Here is what we know so far about "Vistana Plus."

The biggest question that I would ask BEFORE YOUR RECISION PERIOD EXPIRES is will resale purchasers of these pre-Starwood, “Vistana Plus” properies be allowed join SVN through "Vistana Plus."  It's my understanding that "Vistana Plus" privileges transfer on resale, but I may be wrong.

If VP privileges do indeed transfer on resale, why not just buy two resale VR Fountain's units for a couple of hundred bucks each, and then join SVN through the "Vistana Plus" deal when it’s offered starting April 1st?

In the short term, I'd rescind until this all pans out.

-nodge


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## tomandrobin (Mar 29, 2008)

Interesting deal from Starwood.

I think that as long as you are happy with using Vistana Resort, and the staroptions are good, the deal and price sounds fair. Resale is the only downside, but if are in it for the long hual, it doesn't matter. 

How many units does Vistana Resort have available for this program?

Those 132,000 starpoints can get you 15 days at the Swan Hotel in Disney during Christmas! Or three rooms for five nights at the Swan for Christmas, better then $2600 value.


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## grgs (Mar 29, 2008)

norag said:


> I'm surprised that the star points are only worth 2 cents a point.



Well, I'm giving the Starpoints a conservative estimate.  Depending on how you use them, they could be worth far more (or less).  You can read discussion on this ad nauseum over on the Starwood board at flyertalk.com.  Right now, with the dollar being so weak, using Starpoints for European hotels seems to be a good use, and would work out to higher than 2 cents/pt.  Any idea what you would use the points for?  If so, look at the hotel rates for those properties, and figure out what the Starpoints would be worth to you.

Glorian


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## grgs (Mar 29, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Great point about Kierland 2BR at 148,100 SOs.  Price is about $20,000 these days on resale and since it's M, you'll get that critical SO threshold for 2BR exchanges just about anywhere.  But no SPs option then.  And resale is much better at Kierland.



Personally, I don't think $20,000 is a typical resale price for Kierland.  Here are the sales on e-bay that I've tracked:

3/20/2007			2 bd LO	EY	Platinum	21000
4/23/2007			2 bd LO	EY	Platinum	28799
5/7/2007			2 bd LO	EY	Platinum	24090
5/21/2007			2 bd LO	EY	Platinum	24000
5/31/2007			2 bd LO	EY	Platinum	21600
6/4/2007			2 bd LO	EY	Platinum	20800
6/11/2007			2 bd LO	EY	Platinum	23000
7/2/2007			2 bd LO	EY	Platinum	22323
12/18/2007			2 bd LO	EY	Platinum	22090
1/21/2008			2 bd LO	EY	Platinum	20000

The average comes out to $22,770, which I think reflects a more realistic price.  Of course, there aren't that many 2 bed plat auctions.  Also, the resale sites that I look at (eg/ timeshareaz.com; transactionrealty.com) tend to list these units for $24-25K.  Of course, you can always offer less, but I think the prices list at these sites reflect market value with perhaps a modest negotiating cushion.  So, until I can verify more sales at $20,000, I'm sticking with my estimate of $22,000.

Glorian


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## timeos2 (Mar 29, 2008)

*The deal should be there on your schedule*



norag said:


> We bought now because the first offering of these units was on Thursday, and by Friday, the price on most had gone up $4,000, from $12,500 to $16,500.  So with the realization that we have 10 days to rescind, it seemed like a better move to buy now, and review documentation on April 1st to confirm the developers claims.
> 
> 152,000 SO per year, plus 132,000 SP (one time offer), Gold Status (SPG) and option to convert SO to SP didn't sound too bad.
> 
> Maintenance fees are $623 each. ($1,246 total per year).



Now THIS makes the whole thing very suspect. If they can sell it today for $12,500 then they can sell it on 4/1 for $12,500 - there is no magic in the date that would cause the price to rise $4000.  It smacks of pressure sales and, to be honest, the whole deal sounds far too expensive for what you are getting.  But only you really know if what you have to pay is a good value to your family for the features they offer. If it was an offer I was given I'd ask for time to review it completely at the original price and, if they said yes and after a full analysis, I would say yes or no on my time schedule not theirs. If they demand an answer today or tomorrow then its a NO for sure.


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## pointsjunkie (Mar 29, 2008)

norag said:


> Thanks Johns and Gary,
> 
> The entire offer is in writing, as we signed it in 28 different places!  The option to transfer SO to SP is permanent, at 22,000 for 76,000 SO.  The ONE TIME INCENTIVE for signing was 132,000.
> 
> ...



vistana beach club is now going to be in the svn? that is great news.


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## GrayFal (Mar 29, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Great point about Kierland 2BR at 148,100 SOs.  Price is about $20,000 these days on resale and since it's M, you'll get that critical SO threshold for 2BR exchanges just about anywhere.  But no SPs option then.  And resale is much better at Kierland.
> 
> That said, if you are aiming to eventually go to 5* or want any sort of elite status at all, buying from the developer is key as your SOs will not apply otherwise (even from a M resort) toward elite status.
> 
> ...


The other side of this is that OP will have 2 2BR lock-offs = 4 1BR units - so even if she deposited 1 2BR unit as 2 1BRs in II every other year - she could have the best of both worlds - 1 II Starwood exchange a year plus a points reservation....

So Kath, please call your contact at Starwood and see when they are going to offer this deal to the PGA people....or is this section OP mentions, part of our Vistana Group' - the "Vistanna Vacation Club"?
It seems odd they are mentioning "Vistana Beach Club"......got to go take mom for a walk!!!!  
see ya lata'!


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## SDKath (Mar 29, 2008)

Pat, they are not LOs from what I see.  Just 2BRs!  Bummer though.  It would be nice if PGA was in it too.  Just don't see it happening as there aren't so many 'problems' with PGA (no major upgrade, silver crown rating drop, etc).

Kath




GrayFal said:


> The other side of this is that OP will have 2 2BR lock-offs = 4 1BR units - so even if she deposited 1 2BR unit as 2 1BRs in II every other year - she could have the best of both worlds - 1 II Starwood exchange a year plus a points reservation....
> 
> So Kath, please call your contact at Starwood and see when they are going to offer this deal to the PGA people....or is this section OP mentions, part of our Vistana Group' - the "Vistanna Vacation Club"?
> It seems odd they are mentioning "Vistana Beach Club"......got to go take mom for a walk!!!!
> see ya lata'!


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## calgarygary (Mar 30, 2008)

I am no legal expert but how can Starwood offer SVN membership to new sales at VR Fountains without providing that same benefit to existing owners?  If they can't, then resale is still the way to go.  If they can, then they have the ability to reduce everybody's interests at every resort by improving the program without including existing owners.


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## SDKath (Mar 30, 2008)

They plan to provide a free upgrade for current owners whose deeds are recorded by tomorrow.  I think that's fair to those who have owned there for years and have had "special assessments" to deal with.

Called SVV sales today just for the fun of it.  The price is now $16,200 for the same 2BR units with 76,000 SOs.  So yes, they raised the prices $4000.  Sounds like you were in the right place at the right time!

Kath


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## grgs (Mar 30, 2008)

SDKath said:


> They plan to provide a free upgrade for current owners whose deeds are recorded by tomorrow.  I think that's fair to those who have owned there for years and have had "special assessments" to deal with.



I wonder if other phases of Vistana Resort will be following the same path?

Glorian


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## norag (Mar 30, 2008)

In the Q and A booklet we received it said that other vistana resorts will be brought in once renovations brings them up to SVN standards.


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## Ken555 (Mar 30, 2008)

Would this mean that VV would be a good "investment" (into SVN) at this time? 

Could SVN be thinking they need more people with Options to trade into the other resorts? Just look at the vacancies at Maui and consider. Of course, changes in the economy can't help the t/s industry at all.


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## grgs (Mar 30, 2008)

Ken555 said:


> Would this mean that VV would be a good "investment" (into SVN) at this time?



I assume you mean VR (or SVR--either it is acceptable according to our "official" acroynm list:

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60852). 

VV would refer to Vistana Villages for which most phase are mandatory.

Anyway, it could mean these units would be a good "investment," if you're willing to take a chance.



Ken555 said:


> Could SVN be thinking they need more people with Options to trade into the other resorts? Just look at the vacancies at Maui and consider. Of course, changes in the economy can't help the t/s industry at all.



I do think this opens up a new revenue stream for Starwood (new inventory to sell without having to build from scratch; also, conversion fees from existing owners who are allowed to buy their way into SVN).  If it is related to current economic conditions, then I would guess they wouldn't do this once the economy rebounds, and sales go up again.

Glorian


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## Ken555 (Mar 30, 2008)

Yeah, thanks. VR/SVR, not VV. It's all the same V to me! (as I haven't been there yet)


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## capjak (Mar 30, 2008)

norag said:


> I was looking at the one time incentive of 132,000 pts. I thought that would be worth more than 2600.00.



You can buy starpoints from Starwood for 3.5 cents so 132000 is worth $4600 per starwood (of course this means they are likely making a profit on the purchase of these starpoints)


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## DISNUT21 (Mar 30, 2008)

My sales person at starwood who I spoke to on Saturday actually told me that the goal is to make the entire Vistana Resort property a SVN member. It will be done portion by portion at a time... so my guess would be that the Falls section will be next to join the program by summer. What are your thoughts?


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## DavidnRobin (Mar 30, 2008)

I know nothing about this - but please refer to the SVO/TUG Golden Rule.
The one right above the one that states to never pay anyone to sell your TS.


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## SDKath (Mar 30, 2008)

DavidnRobin said:


> I know nothing about this - but please refer to the SVO/TUG Golden Rule.
> The one right above the one that states to never pay anyone to sell your TS.



:hysterical:  So true.  It basically doesn't mean anything what they say.  If some "board of directors" decides to spend $30M on an upgrade and then again decides to "join SVN" than maybe in a year or two one of the other sections will join.  Maybe.  Until then, anyone purchasing into those sections will be hit with a substantial special assessment for the necessary upgrades to take place.   

Kath


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## pointsjunkie (Mar 30, 2008)

norag said:


> I was looking at the one time incentive of 132,000 pts. I thought that would be worth more than 2600.00.



hi i just booked st. john's for 40000 sp and the $ amount is $659 per night and we get the 5th night free. so if i used cash it would come to $3295 and i only used 40000 sp. if used correctly they can be very cost effective.

i also booked 3 rooms at the swan for 5 nights at $400 per night using 120000sp and that would have cost me $6000. do i need to repeat, if used correctly....


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## pointsjunkie (Mar 30, 2008)

having new properties in the svn is a very good thing. starwood is going to be able to get a 5* rating at the resorts and then more people will want to trade into them. in the past svr lost it's top rating and now with the new interiors it will get a much better rating.

i will be glad to have the resort in florida that is on the ocean.

did someone say they will be opening a westin in myrtle breach on the ocean?


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## tomandrobin (Mar 31, 2008)

pointsjunkie said:


> hi i just booked st. john's for 40000 sp and the $ amount is $659 per night and we get the 5th night free. so if i used cash it would come to $3295 and i only used 40000 sp. if used correctly they can be very cost effective.
> 
> i also booked 3 rooms at the swan for 5 nights at $400 per night using 120000sp and that would have cost me $6000. do i need to repeat, if used correctly....



Very nice choice of stays!


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## stevens397 (Mar 31, 2008)

I had the same concern as Kath regarding more competition trying to get SVN trades with a dearth of people fighting for Orlando!

But it seems that very, very few of these people will have enough StarOptions to be going for the 2 BRs in good places - they'll be fighting over 1 BRs.  May not affect us too much.


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## nodge (Mar 31, 2008)

stevens397 said:


> But it seems that very, very few of these people will have enough StarOptions to be going for the 2 BRs in good places - they'll be fighting over 1 BRs.  May not affect us too much.



I agree, even if SVN waves the $599 fee to join, since a 2 BR Fountains(I/II) Vistana Resort unit will only have 76,000 StarOptions, who would be willing to pay an annual $109 "Vistana Plus" fee just for the privilege of being able to give-up their fully updated 2 bedroom villa in Orlando for a studio in Maui? 

These folks could get better trades via RCI/II, and only pay an exchange fee when actually exchanging.

Now adding 76,000 StarOptions obtained via a cheap resale purchase to a member's pre-existing SVN account that already has at least 81,000 StarOptions in it is a different story.  I'd assume that like the SVN fee, the "Vistana plus" fee is reduced on the second unit (and free on the third or more units).  

These additional StarOptions could be just the ticket for bringing an SVN account with 81,000 StarOptions above the magic 148,100 StarOption level needed for a 2 bedroom L/O during peak season at the most desirable SVN locations.  Moreover, should someone already have 148,100 StarOptions, these cheap additional 76,000 SO's could bring those folks above the newish 196,900 StarOption threshold needed for peak season three bedroom units in Harborside, St. John, Steamboat, and Aruba (should it ever be built).

I'm tempted to buy a cheap VR Fountains ($300 or less) on speculation just to see what happens.

-nodge


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## Bill4728 (Mar 31, 2008)

There have been many posts over the years about what Starwood can do. They all say that starwood can at any time offer membership in SVN to an owners at any of the Starwood resorts. 

So Starwood can retro membership of voluntary resorts and starwood can offer SVN membership to any owner.  They just haven't choosen to do that in the past.


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## trader14 (Mar 31, 2008)

nodge said:


> I agree, even if SVN waves the $599 fee to join, since a 2 BR Fountains(I/II) Vistana Resort unit will only have 76,000 StarOptions, who would be willing to pay an annual $109 "Vistana Plus" fee just for the privilege of being able to give-up their fully updated 2 bedroom villa in Orlando for a studio in Maui?



actually they have 2 other options:
1) they can stay for 6 nights instead of seven
2) they can stay in a 1 bedroom and borrow a few thousand points from next year


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## pointsjunkie (Mar 31, 2008)

it gives them the ability to be in II now. if all svn are in II, i presume svr will eventually get there also.

offering to people who have just paid the assessment to be part of the svn is really a very smart idea on starwood's part. they will feel they have value and the assessment was worth it. it is just good psychology.


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## nodge (Mar 31, 2008)

trader14 said:


> actually they have 2 other options:
> 1) they can stay for 6 nights instead of seven
> 2) they can stay in a 1 bedroom and borrow a few thousand points from next year



True, but booking less than a week and/or borrowing StarOptions from next year can only be done 90 days or less prior to a planned arrival date.  Good luck getting high demand weeks AND cheap airfare within that window.

Also, on the one and only time that I tried to borrow StarOptions from next year (I needed about 4000 to make a 2 night stay possible), I was told by the SVN agent that I could only use borrowed StarOptions to book a weekly stay.  

Now that's just one data point, and I bet if I had hung-up and called back, the next agent may have said something different, but since there was no availability for the resort I wanted anyway, I didn't try to pursue it.

-nodge


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## trader14 (Mar 31, 2008)

nodge said:


> True, but booking less than a week and/or borrowing points from next year can only be done 90 days or less prior to a planned arrival date.  Good luck getting high demand weeks AND cheap airfare within that window.
> 
> Also, on the one and only time that I tried to borrow StarOptions from next year (I needed about 4000 to make a 2 night stay possible), I was told by the SVN agent that I could only use borrowed StarOptions to book a weekly stay.
> 
> ...



i was just putting all the other options out there, i am guessing the csr you spoke to was wrong because per tug it can be borrowed as long as adding to a 1 week or longer vacation.  i spoke to csr's today re hawaii and it seems like there is short term availablility.  I was thinking about spending 3-4 at maui and 3-4 elsewhere.  I'm kind of a newbie to svn and was just put in their system today but so far i like what i see and hear from the csr's.  i find them very friendly and willing to spend time.  One person who i spoke with works mainly in elite(i am not) but gave me his direct ext to reach out to when needing reservations.  I am hoping this will come in handy when banking a week to trade into dvc because of svn discretion as to what weeks to deposit


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## Sthack (Apr 1, 2008)

readyalready said:


> Is the option to join SVN only for original developer purchasers?  Isn't that what they did at Desert Oasis?  What happens on resale?



I got my letter today inviting me to join SVN.  I bought my Fountains II 2 BR resale.  So NO, this isn't just for original developer purchasers.


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## grgs (Apr 1, 2008)

Sthack said:


> I got my letter today inviting me to join SVN.  I bought my Fountains II 2 BR resale.  So NO, this isn't just for original developer purchasers.



Are you planning to join?  What are the terms of the offer?  Inquiring minds want to know!  

Thanks,

Glorian


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## nodge (Apr 1, 2008)

Sthack said:


> I got my letter today inviting me to join SVN.  I bought my Fountains II 2 BR *resale*.  So NO, this isn't just for original developer purchasers.



Yea!!  The back-door into SVN has swung open.  Our next step is to see how widely the door will open.  Specifically, were you invited to join "Vistana Plus" or the "Starwood Vacation Network?"  I understand that the class of eligible "Vistana Plus" properties is limited.

If possible, please post (or retype verbatim) your letter so we can all look for clues.

NOTE TO NORAG (The original poster):  Resale VR Fountains properties ARE being allowed into Vistana Plus / SVN.  Until this becomes more widely known, VR Fountains resales can be had for a couple hundred bucks.  RESCIND YOUR DEVELOPER PURCHASES!!

Congrats Sthack!

-nodge


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## Sthack (Apr 1, 2008)

grgs said:


> Are you planning to join?  What are the terms of the offer?  Inquiring minds want to know!  Thanks, Glorian



Well I'm not sure yet.  I'm not familar with how SVN works and really don't know which way is best for me.  We have only stayed at our home resort once since we bought it back in 2000, so we use it mostly for exchanging.  Any suggestions or recommendations are welcome!!!


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## Sthack (Apr 1, 2008)

nodge said:


> If possible, please post (or retype verbatim) your letter so we can all look for clues. -nodge



Dear Sheraton Vistana Fountains II Owner,

We have great news to share. As your Association Board of Directors, we want to ensure that you are provided with maximum flexibility and vacation options in utilizing your ownership benefits.
Over the past several weeks, the Board has been discussing the possibility of affiliating Vistana Fountains II Condominium with Starwood Vacation NetworkSM. We are pleased to inform you that we have completed this new affiliation, which gives you the opportunity to enjoy added benefits and flexibility beginning with the 2009 Use Year. Additionally, Starwood Vacation Network will allow you to take advantage of certain rewards and privileges that can be utilized year-round outside of your vacation.
Along with this new affiliation, your Board has also agreed to revise the Reciprocal Reservation System Agreement that gives you the ability to "float" your vacation time between the Fountains and Fountains II phases at Sheraton Vistana Resort and Vistana's Beach Club. The Floating Use Rules have also been modified in order to better serve Owner usage patterns and to bring consistency to the reservation windows for all Starwood Vacation Ownership resorts.
The revisions made to the Reciprocal Reservation System Agreement and the Floating Use Rules that are effective January 1, 2009 include the following:
•	Adding Starwood Vacation Network as a non-exclusive affiliated exchange program.
•	Changing the reservation window from 13 months to 12 months to bring consistency to the reservation windows system-wide. (Currently, less than one-half of one percent of Owners make a reservation transaction during this time.)
•	The new 12-month window will include a one-month Home Resort priority period that grants Vistana Fountains II Unit Week Owners the exclusive right to make Home Resort reservations at their Home Resort 12 to 11 months in advance of their desired arrival date.  A reservation request for a resort other than the Home Resort may be made beginning 11 months in advance of the desired arrival date.
For a brief overview of these changes, please refer to the chart included with this letter.
Although as members of your Association Board of Directors, we cannot endorse one company over another as the exchange company of choice, we are pleased to have negotiated this non-exclusive affiliation agreement in the interest of maximizing your ownership benefits.  
The Starwood Vacation Exchange Company has advised us that an invitation to join Starwood Vacation Network will be mailed to all Vistana Fountains II Unit Week Owners within the next few weeks.  
Should you decide not to join Starwood Vacation Network, the Reciprocal Reservation System will continue with the modifications described above.
Additionally, the Starwood Vacation Exchange Company will be contacting Owners who are members of the Vistana Plus program regarding the merger and upgrade of that program into Starwood Vacation Network.  That information will also be sent within the next few weeks.  
As your Board of Directors, we are very interested in your level of satisfaction. As always, we encourage you to contact us with any comments or questions.   

Sincerely, 

Vistana Fountains II Condominium Association, Inc.
Stephen Terrano, President
Michele Ford, Vice President
Larry Sommerfeld, Vice President
William Van Evera, Treasurer
Robert Cherwony, Secretary


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## calgarygary (Apr 1, 2008)

Reservation requests other than at the home resort beginning at the 11 month window??????


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## aeroflygirl (Apr 1, 2008)

Am I understanding this correctly?  That your unit must be deeded prior to March 31, 2008 to get the deal?  Is this only for Fountains and Fountains II owners?  Is it also for Vistana Beach Club owners?

Is this supposedly going to be offered again later to the other sections of Vistana Resort (not Lakes, Cascades, Fountains and Fountains II) later when their refurbs are done?



norag said:


> Yes this is a new incentive apparently after April 1st all fountain owners can be upgraded into svn. The renovations have been completed and the decision by the board of directors to join svn was made on march 17th.. Anyone with a resale deeded prior to march 31st can get the deal. staroptions range from 67000 to 76000 pts.
> They told us it rolled out only yesterday.
> Nora
> The star points are convertable at 44,000 pts per week 76,000 star option. It won't show up on the network until april 1st.


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## mishpat (Apr 1, 2008)

*Fountains I*

Is a similar letter going out to Fountains I, where the second payment on the assessment is due next month. I recently saw the model and it was nice. However, since the floorplan included a long hallway, there is far less usable space than the square footage would have you believe. Has anyone else seen it and have another opinion? Also ,the colors were on the dark subdued side. Could have been brighter and more cheerful but great to see flat screen tv,albeit not HDTV.


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## arlene22 (Apr 1, 2008)

Sounds to me like that "11 month" reference refers making reservations at your own resort as opposed to the others of the three resorts: Fountains I, Fountains II and VBC.


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## calgarygary (Apr 1, 2008)

I read that the current 13 month home resort priority was being changed to a 12 month home and that non home resorts could be booked beginning at 11 month.  Even if the 11 month window applies only to VR, I can only book VKW at the 8 month window like any other non home resort.


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## nodge (Apr 2, 2008)

aeroflygirl said:


> Am I understanding this correctly?  That your unit must be deeded prior to March 31, 2008 to get the deal?



I don't know how SVN or Fountains II management could limit SVN membership to resale owners of record on or before March 31, 2008, absent a formal amendment to the Fountains II's CC&R's (which would require a vote of current owners, who probably wouldn't vote for such a limitation as it would decrease the resale value of their villas).

Accordingly, it seems to me that if SVN membership is granted to some resale owners (with or without a membership fee), that membership would have to be granted to ALL past and even future resale owners.

See Post #5 of this thread documenting my 2006 conversation with someone from SVO's legal department.  It appears that "story 2" (which a guy in SVO legal told me vs. "story 1" which was told to be by various SVO salesmen and reservations agents) is now the leading theory.  If so, any resale of these older VR properties (well at least Fountains II for now) could be brought into SVN.

The March 31, 2008 cut-off date appears to just be a date for determining when the $599 SVN enrollment fee requirement will be waived.

Sound Right?

-nodge


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## grgs (Apr 2, 2008)

nodge said:


> I don't know how SVN or Fountains II management could limit SVN membership to resale owners of record on or before March 31, 2008, absent a formal amendment to the Fountains II's CC&R's (which would require a vote of current owners, who probably wouldn't vote for such a limitation as it would decrease the resale value of their villas).
> 
> Accordingly, it seems to me that if SVN membership is granted to some resale owners (with or without a membership fee), that membership would have to be granted to ALL past and even future resale owners.



So, in effect, you're saying that all Fountains II units would now _and in the future_ have to be let in SVN (with the $599 fee)?  This seems contrary to Starwood's practice to date.  Would allowing Fountains II into SVN necessarily change the CC&Rs?  Wouldn't SVN membership just be an option on top of the CC&Rs?  Owners aren't required to join SVN.

Glorian


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## nodge (Apr 2, 2008)

grgs said:


> So, in effect, you're saying that all Fountains II units would now _and in the future_ have to be let in SVN (with the $599 fee)?  This seems contrary to Starwood's practice to date.  Would allowing Fountains II into SVN necessarily change the CC&Rs?  Wouldn't SVN membership just be an option on top of the CC&Rs?  Owners aren't required to join SVN.  Glorian



If part of the deal Fountains II struck with Starwood at the time Starwood acquired Fountains II included language that required Starwood to allow Fountains II owners to join SVN, then I don't know how SVN or Fountains II could limit or exclude future resale buyers from joining (if they wanted to).

In 2006, the guy in SVN legal told me that the early phases of VR expressly required this as part of the Starwood acquisition deal.  

The letter from the Fountains II board says that IT (and not SVN) decided to join SVN.  Accordingly, it would appear that:

1.  The guy that talked to me in 2006 was right. The Fountains II board retained the right to join SVN as part of the original Starwood acquisition deal; and,

2.  The Fountains II board has just finally gotten around to exercising its contractual right to join SVN (and SVN can't do a darned thing about it, even if it wanted to).

I suspect the language in that agreement doesn't give the Fountains II board any rights to exclude specific owners from joining SVN once the board elects to join it. 

Of course, the SVN joining paperwork that each Fountains II owner ultimately signs could ADD this limitation (thereby making SVN membership impossible for subsequent purchasers of that particular villa).  Until that happens; however, SVN doesn’t appear to have much say in the matter (other than assigning low StarOption values to each villa, which it did), and I don't know why any board member at Fountains II would agree to any owner limitations on joining SVN.

Am I over thinking this?

-nodge


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## nodge (Apr 2, 2008)

Deleted duplicate entry.


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## grgs (Apr 2, 2008)

nodge said:


> If part of the deal Fountains II struck with Starwood at the time Starwood acquired Fountains II included language that required Starwood to allow Fountains II owners to join SVN, then I don't know how SVN or Fountains II could limit or exclude future resale buyers from joining (if they wanted to).
> 
> In 2006, the guy in SVN legal told me that the early phases of VR expressly required this as part of the Starwood acquisition deal.



Well, I guess that's the crux of the matter right there--if that language is included.  Not sure how we could find that out.  I wonder if a Fountains II owner could ask their board about this?

Glorian


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## DMSTWO (Apr 2, 2008)

So if Fountans II and some other sections are being given the opportunity to join SVN it raises some interesting questions:   


What is the Staroptions basis for the various units?  The only Vistana Resorts sections that have an established Staroptions schedule is the Lakes and Cascades sections.

Incidentally those sections are all 1-52 Floating.  Will the Fountains have seasons or just float 1-52?

Also is conversion to Starpoints included, and if so at what rate?

Maybe someone that has received the email can ask these questions and post the answers here.


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## nodge (Apr 2, 2008)

DMSTWO said:


> What is the Staroptions basis for the various units?  The only Vistana Resorts sections that have an established Staroptions schedule is the Lakes and Cascades sections.
> 
> Incidentally those sections are all 1-52 Floating.  Will the Fountains have seasons or just float 1-52?
> 
> ...



See the original post and post #10 above,  Fountains II week 1-52 floaters will be given 76,000 StarOptions and the ability to convert to 22,000 SPG (hotel) StarPoints.  Not many StarOptions or StarPoints, but it could be just the ticket to top off a pre-existing SVN account (See post #50).

-nodge


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## nodge (Apr 2, 2008)

grgs said:


> I wonder if a Fountains II owner could ask their board about this?



How about it Sthack?  Are you interested in taking one for the team and calling someone on the Fountains II board?

I see from another post that you are interested in selling your Fountains II and buying at SBP.  In light of the Fountains II boards' letter, if I were you, I'd want to know if the SVN thing will extend to your buyer.  If so, that would be the first thing I'd say in your sales listing.

If you do call, please let us know what the board member says.

Thanks!

-nodge


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## myip (Apr 2, 2008)

nodge said:


> See the original post and post #10 above,  Fountains II week 1-52 floaters will be given 76,000 StarOptions and the ability to convert to 22,000 SPG (hotel) StarPoints.  Not many StarOptions or StarPoints, but it could be just the ticket to top off a pre-existing SVN account (See post #50).
> 
> -nodge


I thought it was 44000 starpoints conversion not 22000.  If it is 22000, it is so little.


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## SDKath (Apr 2, 2008)

myip said:


> I thought it was 44000 starpoints conversion not 22000.  If it is 22000, it is so little.



Depends.  If you paid $9950, you got 76,000 SOs and 22,000 SPs.  If you paid $12,500, you got 76,000 SOs and 44,000 SPs!

All weeks get the same SOs.  Wierd since FL seems to be seasonal (look at Key West, etc).

Price now is $16,500 for 76,000 SOs and 44,000 SPs.  Kath


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## arlene22 (Apr 2, 2008)

Talk about inflation!


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## Gypsie (Apr 2, 2008)

*Quote of Anonymous Sales Agent at SVO*

I called my sales rep to ask about the new options at Sheraton Vistana and here was her written response:

_"Sheraton Vistana Resort (Fountains, Fountains II, and Vistana Beach Club) have all either completed major refurbishments of their villa interiors or will be completed this year. These (3) associations have been offered membership into Starwood Vacation Network. Owners may enroll at no cost until October 1, 2008. Thereafter, the initiation fee of $599. will apply. During the initial  enrollment period, resale owners will also be invited to join SVN. HOWEVER, the deed must have been RECORDED PRIOR to March 31, 2008.  After October 1, the normal business rules for resale owners will apply. 

Membership will be effective for 2009, and they will be voluntary resorts." _


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## Courts (Apr 2, 2008)

norag said:


> We bought now because the first offering of these units was on Thursday, and by Friday, the price on most had gone up $4,000, from $12,500 to $16,500.  So with the realization that we have 10 days to rescind, it seemed like a better move to buy now, and review documentation on April 1st to confirm the developers claims.
> 
> 152,000 SO per year, plus 132,000 SP (one time offer), Gold Status (SPG) and option to convert SO to SP didn't sound too bad.
> 
> *Maintenance fees are $623 each*. ($1,246 total per year).


I feel very ripped-off with my Maintenance fees of $ 786.19 plus Tax  $ 45.37  for a total of $ 831.56 for my two bed Courts unit. Not even a L/O.   
.


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## SDKath (Apr 2, 2008)

Did you already have to pay a special assessment to get upgrades to the unit, Courts?  If so, then you will probably get your invite to SVN shortly too!  Correct me if this is wrong but I think all SVR is 2BR (non-LO) except Lakes and Cascades.

Katherine


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## nodge (Apr 2, 2008)

Gypsie said:


> I called my sales rep to ask about the new options at Sheraton Vistana and here was her written response:
> 
> _"Sheraton Vistana Resort (Fountains, Fountains II, and Vistana Beach Club) have all either completed major refurbishments of their villa interiors or will be completed this year. These (3) associations have been offered membership into Starwood Vacation Network. Owners may enroll at no cost until October 1, 2008. Thereafter, the initiation fee of $599. will apply. During the initial  enrollment period, resale owners will also be invited to join SVN. HOWEVER, the deed must have been RECORDED PRIOR to March 31, 2008.  After October 1, the normal business rules for resale owners will apply.
> 
> Membership will be effective for 2009, and they will be voluntary resorts." _



Great data point!  If that came from someone representing the Fountains II Board I would tend to believe it more than having come from an SVN salesperson.  At a minimum, it probably represents SVN's hope or goal here.

You'll notice that the writing doesn't say that these owners will be offered membership in SVN BECAUSE OF their resorts' recent refurbishments.  Only that 1) these resorts have all undergone refurbishment, and 2) owners of these resorts "have been" offered membership in SVN. 

(Legal writing interpretation tip:  Whenever someone uses passive voice ("have been offered") instead of active voice (i.e. "SVO offered them . . .." or "Their respective boards offered them . . .") the writer is hiding something.  In this case, the salesperson has hidden which of these entities initiated the offer to these owners.  It could be that the salesperson is just a lousy writer, but I suspect that this text was reviewed and edited by the SVO powers that be before it was released.  In such case, we can assume SVO is intentionally hiding the identity of this entity.  SVO has no need to hide the fact that it initiated this deal.  Accordingly, we can assume from this chosen passive voice that THE BOARDS initiated the deal.  This conclusion conforms to the Fountains II board letter (posted above) provided to owners.)  

Regarding these resorts being "voluntary," that would happen when an owner actually signs the SVN membership form presented to them.  The language on THAT FORM will include the "voluntary" limitations.  It currently isn't in any paperwork of record for these resorts.  Until then, these resorts are neither "voluntary" nor "mandatory."  

Before signing anything like that (and thereby making them indeed “voluntary”), I would force the board at each resort to disclose the terms of Starwood's earlier acquisition of each resort relative to obligations to honor any "internal vacation exchange clubs" subsequently developed by Starwood.  (Hey board members reading this, remember even though you are all cronies of SVO, you still have a fiduciary duty to represent the best interests of your respective resorts' owners.  This includes answering your owner's reasonable requests for documentation regarding this issue, and interpreting SVO obligations provided in the original acquisition documents in a light most favorable for your owners, NOT SVO!)

If that paperwork says that owners of these resorts will be allowed to join such networks in the future, but (as I suspect) is silent regarding which owners (original, resale prior to a certain date, or all resale) may join, why would each board (remember that fiduciary duty thing folks) go along with SVN's interpretation (only resale owners prior to a certain date)?  

Moreover, I guarantee you that that date (March 31, 2008) isn't written anywhere in those original documents.  I bet that it was just arbitrarily chosen by our friends at SVO with the hope that it would stick.

With this limited data and SVO's reputation for screwing owners (on resale value at least), I now think it's too risky for existing SVN members to buy a cheap resale Fountains II to see what happens.  Moreover, the StarOptions are just too low to justify an existing Fountains/Vistana Beach Club single villa owner joining SVN under this deal.  

SVO appears to have proved once again that it is the incandescent light bulb of timeshare management, generating 90% worthless heat when producing only 10% useful light.

-nodge


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## SDKath (Apr 2, 2008)

I am curious if the OP's paperwork had anything to say about March 31st.  It has to be in writing.  Or else everyone will be on eBay buying up those Fountains resales for $300 right now!!

K


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## calgarygary (Apr 2, 2008)

nodge said:


> Great data point!  If that came from someone representing the Fountains II Board I would tend to believe it more than having come from an SVN salesperson.  At a minimum, it probably represents SVN's hope or goal here.
> 
> You'll notice that the writing doesn't say that these owners will be offered membership in SVN BECAUSE OF their resorts' recent refurbishments.  Only that 1) these resorts have all undergone refurbishment, and 2) owners of these resorts "have been" offered membership in SVN.
> 
> ...



nodge, don't you think that there can be great value in buying 1 or 2 Fountains units resale if you plan to purchase developer in Hawaii, Cancun, etc.  SVO has opened the door and I can't imagine that they would shut it on a big buck deal.  This would be the cheapest retro out there and you could possibly double the staroptions of a developer purchase for just a few hundred dollars.


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## nodge (Apr 2, 2008)

calgarygary said:


> nodge, don't you think that there can be great value in buying 1 or 2 Fountains units resale if you plan to purchase developer in Hawaii, Cancun, etc.  SVO has opened the door and I can't imagine that they would shut it on a big buck deal.  This would be the cheapest retro out there and you could possibly double the staroptions of a developer purchase for just a few hundred dollars.



If SVN honors its currently posted 1 requal per 1 developer purchase plan, then paying $40,000 on a developer Hawaii purchase (or $20K on a domestic or Cancun purchase) to requal only 76,000 StarOptions (even if purchased for super cheap) may not be the best use of one's resources.  I would think the minimum valuable requal amount would be at least 81,000 StarOptions, which could be had by spending a few hundred dollars more on a resale 2 BR L/O Cascades or PGA purchase, (or finding the mythical large one bedroom true platinum (post-starwood) SDO) or the like.

Of course, if someone were willing to roll the dice on the March 31, 2008 resale Fountains II cut-off date, with the understanding that they would requal it with an already planned developer purchase if SVN refused to extend that date, then go for it.

Make sense?

-nodge


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## SDKath (Apr 3, 2008)

nodge said:


> If SVN honors its currently posted 1 requal per 1 developer purchase plan, then paying $40,000 on a developer Hawaii purchase (or $20K on a domestic or Cancun purchase) to requal only 76,000 StarOptions (even if purchased for super cheap) may not be the best use of one's resources.  I would think the minimum valuable requal amount would be at least 81,000 StarOptions, which could be had by spending a few hundred dollars more on a resale 2 BR L/O Cascades or PGA purchase, (or finding the mythical large one bedroom true platinum (post-starwood) SDO) or the like.
> 
> Of course, if someone were willing to roll the dice on the March 31, 2008 resale Fountains II cut-off date, with the understanding that they would requal it with an already planned developer purchase if SVN refused to extend that date, then go for it.
> 
> ...



Starwood's current requal rules are >$20,000 spent per requal.  So you can't buy a Fountains week from Starwood and requal a unit.  You have to buy one unit worth over $20,000 to retro anything no matter how many SOs.

I would not "waste" a retro for anything less than 148,100 SOs.  It's just too much money to spend for 81,000 SOs I think.  WMH, SMV, SDO true platinum (truly elusive) are good options for 148,100 SOs.

If someone is close to getting 5* already, just one purchase from Fountains might tip them over the 559,000 SO requirement for 5*.  That's a nice option.

Katherine


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## Courts (Apr 3, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Did you already have to pay a special assessment to get upgrades to the unit, Courts?  If so, then you will probably get your invite to SVN shortly too!  Correct me if this is wrong but I think all SVR is 2BR (non-LO) except Lakes and Cascades.
> 
> Katherine


I have inquired about the upgrades I'm hearing about and was told the Courts board are "looking into the possibility" of upgrading, but nothing has been decided.

I only mentioned L/O's because I see no reason for our MF's to be higher than a section being offered SVN.
.


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## mishpat (Apr 9, 2008)

*Vistana goes SVN*

Sounds too good to be true. 76000 StarOptions for my Fountains. But the catch to me is that most trades I prefer require 82000 Staroptions.  I could book only six nights but that must be done 90 days out. And I know I can get  the extra 5000 from my upcoming year BUT then I can also only book 90 days out. So the big question is: Is there any way I can get 5000 extra options AND be able to book the regular 8 months out?  Final question:Is it true that, in the years I use II for deposit, Starwood picks ANY week to deposit, thus again minimizing the value of the week?


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## DeniseM (Apr 9, 2008)

Since Starwood doesn't sell Staroptions independent of a deeded week, I don't think there is any way to buy that number of Staroptions.  However, since Starwood changes the rules all the time, as soon as I post this it could change!

As far as depositing with II, if you are an SVN member, you have to go through Starwood to deposit your week.  Some people have had luck with requesting a better week than they are offered, but there are no guarantees.

We have an ongoing thread about the new Vistana Deal that you will find helpful, if you haven't seen it, so I'm moving your post to that thread.


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## GrayFal (Apr 10, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Depends.  If you paid $9950, you got 76,000 SOs and 22,000 SPs.  If you paid $12,500, you got 76,000 SOs and 44,000 SPs!
> 
> *All weeks get the same SOs.  Wierd since FL seems to be seasonal (look at Key West, etc).*
> 
> Price now is $16,500 for 76,000 SOs and 44,000 SPs.  Kath


PGA has 'seasons' but Orlando is considered RED weeks 1-52 - or at least that is how Starwood sold the resort.
The Marriotts in Orlando and DVC as well, have 'seasons'


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## GrayFal (Apr 10, 2008)

DeniseM said:


> Since Starwood doesn't sell Staroptions independent of a deeded week, I don't think there is any way to buy that number of Staroptions.  However, since Starwood changes the rules all the time, as soon as I post this it could change!
> 
> *As far as depositing with II, if you are an SVN member, you have to go through Starwood to deposit your week.  Some people have had luck with requesting a better week than they are offered, but there are no guarantees*.
> 
> We have an ongoing thread about the new Vistana Deal that you will find helpful, if you haven't seen it, so I'm moving your post to that thread.



For an educated consumer such as yourself and others on this board - even though SVN will 'pick' your week - you can 'guide'   them into making a good choice for you 
And if they don't get it right the first time, ask them to switch - but all this info is on other threads, don't want to take away from this HOT topic


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## EileenSRN (Apr 12, 2008)

*No more "Mandatory Resorts"?????*

OK. I didn't take the time to read more than the first 2 pages, so some of this may have already been posted. I'm at VV on an Internal Exchange. Did the Owner's Update this AM. Here's what the salesman said:
1.Starwood bought out all owners in the Fountains building and is selling them ONLY to current owners in the system.  He said they were really only offering them to Elite owners and other owners who go to the update. They expect to sell the Fountains section out quickly. That brings it into the SVN. The 2 bedroom is 76,000.
2.He also said VV is about sold out and by summer there will be no more sales, so they're going to push the new Mexico resorts. 
3. Starwood is not going to do any more Sheraton branded resorts. They're focusing on Westin.
4. Las Vegas and Sedona resorts are on the drawing board.
5.. Elite ownership is currently 165,000 Star Options. Going to 400,000 very soon.
6. They have decided to close the resale loophole, and since Jan 1 NO RESALES OF MANDATORY  RESORTS ARE IN SVN. He says all those ebay sales touting Staroptions get the news when they do the resort transfer. Anybody know if this is true? I've been putting off buying a resale out west, I sure hope it isn't true.
Eileen


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## Denise L (Apr 12, 2008)

EileenSRN said:


> 6. They have decided to close the resale loophole, and since Jan 1 NO RESALES OF MANDATORY  RESORTS ARE IN SVN. He says all those ebay sales touting Staroptions get the news when they do the resort transfer. Anybody know if this is true? I've been putting off buying a resale out west, I sure hope it isn't true.



Thanks for the update. Interesting info!

I can't imagine how a SVN Mandatory resort can be made _un-mandatory _by Starwood. The point of the resort being mandatory (in our contract), is that it _has_ to be part of SVN!  Your salesperson said since January 1, 2008? That seems highly unlikely and sounds like the salesperson was just trying to discourage any resale purchases.  This kind of false rumor could scare people into not buying resale and cause our resale values to plummet even further.


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## nodge (Apr 12, 2008)

EileenSRN said:


> OK. I didn't take the time to read more than the first 2 pages, so some of this may have already been posted. I'm at VV on an Internal Exchange. Did the Owner's Update this AM. Here's what the salesman said:
> 1.Starwood bought out all owners in the Fountains building and is selling them ONLY to current owners in the system.  He said they were really only offering them to Elite owners and other owners who go to the update. They expect to sell the Fountains section out quickly. That brings it into the SVN. The 2 bedroom is 76,000.
> 2.He also said VV is about sold out and by summer there will be no more sales, so they're going to push the new Mexico resorts.
> 3. Starwood is not going to do any more Sheraton branded resorts. They're focusing on Westin.
> ...



Oh My.  

Your salesperson is dead wrong about the stuff I know about (VV is developing an entirely new phase (Called "St. Augustine" that may not have even started sales yet, and it certainly hasn't come anywhere near selling out); the second Kauai property will be branded a Sheraton; non-elite and even current non-owners were offered a handful of default/repo Fountains units (SVN didn’t “buy-back” those entire phases), and “mandatory” resorts purchased resale cannot be excluded from SVN, hence the name “M-A-N-D-A-T-O-R-Y”)).  Accordingly, I suspect that the other stuff he told you is also dead wrong.

How can SVO continue to allow such blatantly deceptive sales activity? 

Please report his name and what he told you to SVO, AND file a complaint against SVO/him via this link.  

If we all start reporting SVO’s bad acts to the folks regulating SVO's behavior, maybe we’ll start to see SVO act better.

Enough is Enough SVO.  Have you no shame?

-nodge


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## SDKath (Apr 12, 2008)

Oh my!  I totally agree with Nodge.  What a crock of ****!  I just bought the fountains and I never owned anything with Starwood before.  I am not an elite owner or a previous owner.  My rep just called me since she knew I was looking to get to an elite level and offered it to me. My friend bought 8 weeks from her to get to 5*.  He is not a previous Starwood owner either.

Nodge is right, St Augustine JUST started and you can take your pick of whatever you want there (although it's Vol).  The Mandatory phases of SVV are nearly sold out from last I heard. 

Mandatory is mandatory.  They can't just "change it" if it's in the contracts that SVN points pass on in resale.

And elite is going to 400,000????  WHAT?  As if elite benefits currently are worth anything (aside from 5*).  

As for it giving up Sheraton, the Sheraton in Poipu is planned and was presented by the Starwood board this January at their annual conference!  Nice try.

It's interesting to hear that the sales person thought the Mandatory thing is a "loophole."  It's something that was worked into those contracts (at the beginning) and although Starwood has promised not to sell any new Mandatory resorts (everything built from now on will be V per reports), this is not a "loophole" that can be closed.  What IS a loophole that easily can be closed is buying a new unit and retroing a V resort.  That can end at any time at their discretion.

I don't know what is on the drawing board but what was presented at this same conference to industry insiders was another Mexico location, possibly an add on at Kierland and Poipu.  Las Vegas is so unbelievably overbuilt that it would be a waste of their resources to be there.  Sedona sounds nice though.  I would love to add to the rumor that I heard of Tahoe too.  But then again, I aint a sales rep so I won't.   

Katherine


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## Kildahl (Apr 12, 2008)

SDKath said:


> .....I don't know what is on the drawing board but what was presented at this same conference to industry insiders was another Mexico location, possibly an add on at Kierland and Poipu.  Las Vegas is so unbelievably overbuilt that it would be a waste of their resources to be there.  Sedona sounds nice though.  I would love to add to the rumor that I heard of Tahoe too.  But then again, I aint a sales rep so I won't.
> 
> Katherine



Someone, please refresh my recollection.  Is  the proposed Monmouth Mountain development  a Starwood or Hilton project ? Kildahl


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## EileenSRN (Apr 12, 2008)

*What a resource you all (we all) are!!*

Thank you for the good news. I will report him. Let you know what I hear. I guess the only honest thing we got out of this morning was the new resort book (A $32 value, according to you know who).
Eileen


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## nodge (Apr 12, 2008)

EileenSRN said:


> Thank you for the good news. I will report him. Let you know what I hear. I guess the only honest thing we got out of this morning was the new resort book (A $32 value, according to you know who).
> Eileen



If you take the SVN resort book that you already have with you to the update, do you think they'll rip the Aruba brochure out or let you keep it in?  (". . . and you won't be needing this!"  RRRRRRiiiippppp)

-nodge


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## GrayFal (Apr 12, 2008)

nodge said:


> Do you think if you take the SVN resort book that you already have with you to the update, *they'll rip the Aruba brochure out or let you keep it in?*
> -nodge


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## trader14 (Apr 12, 2008)

EileenSRN said:


> OK. I didn't take the time to read more than the first 2 pages, so some of this may have already been posted. I'm at VV on an Internal Exchange. Did the Owner's Update this AM. Here's what the salesman said:
> 6. They have decided to close the resale loophole, and since Jan 1 NO RESALES OF MANDATORY  RESORTS ARE IN SVN. He says all those ebay sales touting Staroptions get the news when they do the resort transfer. Anybody know if this is true? I've been putting off buying a resale out west, I sure hope it isn't true.
> Eileen



I purchased mine on ebay in march 08 and have been in the svn system for a couple weeks and I have 81k staroption points on my account per svn and mystarcentral so that is bunk


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## Denise P (Apr 14, 2008)

Hello,

I am a Starwood owner from the UK. I have been an avid TUG reader for some months but I've been too timid to post anything until now.

I attended an owners update 2 days prior to Eileen and this has prompted my  response. 

The salesman desperately wanted me to upgrade and told me I only need 159,000 star options to reach elite status (I note that Eileen was told that this was 165,000).

In addition, he offered me 30,000 phantom star options towards my elite status as I own a non-Starwood timeshare. I would be interested to learn if anyone else has been offered this as it seems very unfair on other owners who have to pay full price to reach elite.

I visit Orlando up to 3 times a year which is why SVV is perfect for me but I also visit Las Vegas about once every 3 years so I asked about potential timeshare development there. I was advised that Starwood have considered this in the past but it has been ruled out because land is so expensive that it would not be cost effective. This is yet another contradiction to the information provided 2 days later.

I was not offered a Fountains Unit but I they did try to push Mexico. The man just couldn't understand why I did not want to part with $17,000 to enhance my ownership in spite of my repeatedly telling him that I only really visit Orlando/Las Vegas and that I have a European timeshare which is  affiliated with RCI giving me very cheap European bonus vacations. Starwood are also poorly informed about the exchange fees with RCI/II which are much higher for non-US residents.

It is great to finally have a reason to post here! Hopefully, I will have more to contribute in the future!


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## pointsjunkie (Apr 14, 2008)

thanks for your insight, what you were told seems to be more accurate, and welcome to TUG.


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 14, 2008)

Denise P., if your goal is to stay more often in Orlando, you can buy just about anything and trade in:

We pay $590 maintenance fees for a great week that gets an AC

So $590+ $139 exchange fee + $299 for the bonus AC week, and we can get two weeks at Vistana Villages for only $1,028.  

A similar week to our week has an initial cost of less than $1,000 with closing costs included.


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## DeniseM (Apr 14, 2008)

Hi Denise P  

Denise L and I (DeniseM) would like to welcome you to the Denise Board!  errrr, I mean the Starwood board!    



Denise P said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am a Starwood owner from the UK. I have been an avid TUG reader for some months but I've been too timid to post anything until now.
> 
> ...


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## EileenSRN (Apr 14, 2008)

DeniseP,
Welcome to TUG!!
At the beginning of your post you mention being a Starwood owner from the UK, but then later said you had a non-Starwood property. What do you own? I have aunit woeth 81K StarOptions and the salesman said I needed 84K to reach Elite. And yes, he pushed upgrade to Elite like mad. Got to get to 165K before they increase it to 400K.
I also had mentioned that I was looking for a unit in Las Vegas. He reminded me that Starwood owned Aladin and that they were acquiring another "around the Palms". Maybe I misunderstood him and he ment hotel, but sure implied timeshare.
We arrived late on Friday and took the early Satueday Updat time to do it and get it over with. Since the we see all the construction across the street and a big sign saying Fountains. 
Somebody help me out here. I thought Vistana Resort was several blocks away from VV. When you Google it and look at the satellite, it actually shows both as Vistana Villages.
I think we can all agree the pitch they use is taylored to what they think will entice us to buy.
Eileen


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## Denise P (Apr 14, 2008)

Hi Eileen,

I have a 2 bedroom lock off (Key West) in High Season (plus a regular 2 bedroom in Madeira which is a Portuguese Island).

He said that I need 159,000 in total. My L/O is 81,000 plus 30,000 "phantom" star options for my Madeira timeshare (didn't want to know how big it was), leaving me 58,000 to go. 

I wouldn't mind but we showed no interest in buying anything. I made it quite clear that if I was in the market for another unit it would be in Europe and as Starwood don't have timeshares there, they can't help me!

My impression is that the hotel is going to be close to the Hard Rock Hotel, I think he said a Westin (it might even have been a W). I did ask straight out if there would be a timeshare in Vegas as we have exchanged there and that was his response.

Denise

PS. Thanks for all of your welcome messages. I am happy to join the Denise trio!


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## Southdown13 (Apr 14, 2008)

> In addition, he offered me 30,000 phantom star options towards my elite status as I own a non-Starwood timeshare. I would be interested to learn if anyone else has been offered this as it seems very unfair on other owners who have to pay full price to reach elite.



At our owner's update at WMH they offered us 30,000 star options credit for owning two Marriott timeshares.  The SOs could only be applied to 5* elite, but we weren't interested.  It was great knowing the true benefits of 5* elite having read the information on this forum.


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## clsmit (Apr 14, 2008)

soutdown13 said:


> At our owner's update at WMH they offered us 30,000 star options credit for owning two Marriott timeshares.  The SOs could only be applied to 5* elite, but we weren't interested.  It was great knowing the true benefits of 5* elite having read the information on this forum.



Hey SDKath, have you tried to use your DVC ownership as a way to get more Options on your 5* quest?


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## arlene22 (Apr 14, 2008)

I thought the "phantom" S/Os only counted toward 3 star. They count toward 5 star? Oh man, don't tell me that... (Don't....need....any....more....weeks....must....be....strong....)


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## djp (Apr 14, 2008)

the spg website shows  a 3rd Vegas hotel opening later this year in Vegas....an "element".....starwood salesmen regularly mix the trimeshare  properties and hotels in their sales pitch. My guess is starwood will not open a vegas timeshare  any time soon.....the natural was at the planet hollywood where westgate is building....if starwood was serious about a vegas timeshare they would have tried hard to get that property. Plus I dont think anyone is begging for that, I have never thought of Vegas as the ideal spend a week there locale....after 3 days on the strip I am done.


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## myip (Apr 14, 2008)

arlene22 said:


> I thought the "phantom" S/Os only counted toward 3 star. They count toward 5 star? Oh man, don't tell me that... (Don't....need....any....more....weeks....must....be....strong....)



Phantom SO does count toward 5 *.


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## SDKath (Apr 14, 2008)

clsmit said:


> Hey SDKath, have you tried to use your DVC ownership as a way to get more Options on your 5* quest?



Ummm, no.  I think I got every deal in the book and got there so cheaply that if I asked for anything more, they may toss me out.   I am over on the SO requirement by a little with my retros as is.  I actually didn't realize this existed too.  How nice.

By the way, one thing to keep in mind with the SOs you are shooting for with 5* is that you probably want 148,100 SOs x 4 in the end.  If you are short of that amount (about 592,000 SOs), you can't take advantage of four 2 BR LOs each year and may end up with some unused SOs.  A wise TUGger pointed this out to me last month, in the nick of time.

Katherine


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## GrayFal (Apr 14, 2008)

SDKath said:


> Ummm, no.  *I think I got every deal in the book and got there so cheaply that if I asked for anything more, they may toss me out. *  I am over on the SO requirement by a little with my retros as is.  I actually didn't realize this existed too.  How nice.
> 
> By the way, one thing to keep in mind with the SOs you are shooting for with 5* is that you probably want 148,100 SOs x 4 in the end.  If you are short of that amount (about 592,000 SOs), you can't take advantage of four 2 BR LOs each year and may end up with some unused SOs.  A wise TUGger pointed this out to me last month, in the nick of time.
> 
> Katherine


Better to keep a low profile at this point :hysterical:  - they might hunt you down and take away all your 'stuff'


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## EileenSRN (Apr 15, 2008)

*That Fountains question.*

Ok, so I'm getting old....the old powers of observation ain't wht they used to be. The "Fountains" I see directly across the street from VV is a new Bluegreen Resort going up. If Orlando is so overbuilt with timeshare, why are the developers still going hot and heavy?
Eileen


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## LisaRex (Apr 15, 2008)

EileenSRN said:


> If Orlando is so overbuilt with timeshare, why are the developers still going hot and heavy?
> Eileen



Because they are like guests at a Viking wedding.  They devour everything in sight, without realizing that they're already full.


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## arlene22 (Apr 15, 2008)

EileenSRN said:


> Ok, so I'm getting old....the old powers of observation ain't wht they used to be. The "Fountains" I see directly across the street from VV is a new Bluegreen Resort going up. If Orlando is so overbuilt with timeshare, why are the developers still going hot and heavy?
> Eileen



The Fountains units discussed in this thread are actually a section of Vistana Resort, and have nothing to do with the Fountains timeshare across from Vistana Villages (confusing, I know!). The Fountains section at VR is not new, but a very old section that is being refurbished and going back into active sales as a result. So no new units being added at Vistana Resort. (Sort of like timeshare recycling-- I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere for Nodge...)


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