# WDW Owner’s Update: Bought Westin Flex. Need advice!



## Gatorlaw230 (Jun 6, 2018)

Hi fellow Tuggers,

I just bought Westin Flex (which covers 7 resorts in West coast including 3 Hawaiis and WKV) while I attended WDW owner’s update 2 days ago. I have 8 more days to rescind, so I am seeking veterans’ advice before it is too late.

I DID read thread regarding Westin Flex here before owner’s update but I still bought it...eek!

Summary for what I bought:
Three sets of 81,000 Westin Flex Points: 243,000 FOs/SOs (with one time 70,000 SPG points)
Price: about $87,500 (Annual MF: about $4,600)
Trade-in credits: about $70K (see below)
Out of pocket cost: $18K

Below is my timeshares they bought back from me for $70K
-SVR 2BR annual
-SVV St. Augustine 2BR LO annual
-SDO 2BR LO 1-52 float EOY
-SMV 1BR Ski season EOY
-WKV 2BR LO Gold Plus EOY (81,000 SOs)

Reasons to buy Flex:
- 81,000 SOs EOY was not enough for us. I need more SOs. (Then buy SVV mandatory, right?)
- Total cost to acquire above timeshares was less than $4K for me via resale. As you see, it is all voluntary resorts except WKV. They made me feel good that I made money by selling back to them. Also, SVR and SVV (non-mandatory) are hard to unload it.
- Total MFs for these 5 timeshares is similar to Flex I bought. (which about $4500 per year)
I normally rent out for all except WKV and recover more than MFs. But I am tired of managing it.
- We seldom stay at resort for entire week. It has been always 3,4,5 days. Westin Flex seems very flexible. (However, I can use my SOs at 8 mos mark for short stay as well. So, still buying SVV mandatory wins..)
- I was not be able to secure Hawaii at 8 mos mark with my SOs. With Flex, I can do it at 12 mos mark. (However, it depends on availability…!)
- Westin Flex let me transfer unused points to SPG/Marriott. Get me 3 star Elite (although not much benefit to me), Gold for SPG/Marriott/Ritz (again it is not a big deal to me)
-They showed me that the rental value for one-week peak season at Hawaii being close to $5000 for 1BR. (turned out it is not true after I researched afterwards. It seems that only around $1500-2000 for 1BR) Also, they showed us that rental value for 3 days Coachella weekend exceeds $4,000. (for 3 days!) It seems that this is not true either. (read from other thread here)
They said that by using only one 81,000 Flex, I can recoup the MFs already and I still have 2 more 81K to use. (I found that this is not realistic at all.)

Reasons to cancel this:
-243,000 FOs/SOs is too much for us (I asked less amount FOs like 162,000 FOs, but then they said that I cannot trade-in all of my 5 timeshares in that case because credits exceed purchase price.)
- Based on research here, it will be the best to buy SVV Mandatory 2BR or 2BR LO for under $2,000 which will come with 81,000 SOs or 95,700 SOs.

-----
I challenged salespersons that I rather will buy SVV mandatory resort for $1500 for 81,000 SOs. So, if I buy 3 of those, I will spend less than $5K vs $18K.

They said that it is illegal to rent it (in case I need to rent) if I own SVV but rent other resorts after securing it by using SOs. (true?) But I will most likely use all SOs if I buy SVV. (no need to rent out. But for 243,000 SOs, I need to rent out sometimes.)

They also said that it is nearly impossible to book Hawaii with SVV mandatory because I can only do it at 8 months out while I can do it at 12 months out with Flex.

I then challenged them that pool is separate from week deeded ownership and maybe there is very limited availability for Flex owners at this point. They said that they are heavily selling Flex now, so it shouldn't be an issue after 2019. Basically, they admitted that it has limited availability as of now, so I might not be able to get peak season (when schools break) for Hawaii at 12 mos mark with Flex.

I again challenged them by saying that Sheraton Flex already doesn't hold the value and it is almost free now at resale market. (because Buyer will not get SOs.) They said that having 3 Hawaii properties and WKV, Westin flex will hold the value even if buyers don't get SOs. (because they still have 7 home resorts.)

QUESTION:
Should I definitely rescind this or is this not too bad deal? I was looking to buy Hawaii timeshare, but it seems that it is over $10K anyway and MF is very expensive. (in fact, more expensive than Flex) 

Any advice would be really appreciated. Thanks for your time!


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## lizap (Jun 6, 2018)

I would definitely rescind.  No one knows what Marriott is going to do; they may very well modify it - there's a good chance it is likely to be devalued as Marriott is likely to offer us a chance to buy into a points system at a much lower cost, as they did with Marriott owners. .  Hyatt has a similar program, PPP, and it is believed by most on the Hyatt forum that it is a flop/not selling well. BTW, just returned from Hawaii (2 weeks) using SOs, booked 8 months out.


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## okwiater (Jun 6, 2018)

If you're not sure, I would definitely rescind. There will be an opportunity to buy something later if you still want to.

That said, your situation is unique in that you have five oddball ownerships and they were giving you a (relatively) inexpensive way to trade all of them in for what may be a more useful product. You are correct that it has little to no resale value, but if you want the options, you want to travel to (or rent) Hawaii, etc. and you have the $18K to spend without financing or impacting your other financial needs/goals, then this transaction could be a much easier way to change out your ownerships than selling or giving them all away and then finding and purchasing a few cheap mandatory's.

But again, if you're not certain it's what you want, rescind now while you still have time, and make the decision without the pressure of a rescission deadline weighing on you.


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## duke (Jun 6, 2018)

If they will give you $70k for that "basket" of Maintenance Fees you currently own and you are willing to pay an additional $18k then your best option is to get out of the Flex deal and purchase from the Developer the Hawaii week you want.  You seem to have $88k to spend and if you do this you would get rid of the $4,500 Maint fees and take on just one $2,800 Maint fee for Hawaii.  WKORV and WKORVN are mandatory and probably sell for about that price now from the Developer.

Of course, you could just keep what you own and purchase Hawaii for less than $18k resale but you would just be adding to your annual fees.

So, dump the Flex .... purchase Hawaii from the Developer and you get what you want.  You can make reservations at 12 months and reduce your Maint fees in about half.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 6, 2018)

duke said:


> If they will give you $70k for that "basket" of Maintenance Fees you currently own and you are willing to pay an additional $18k then your best option is to get out of the Flex deal and purchase from the Developer the Hawaii week you want.  You seem to have $88k to spend and if you do this you would get rid of the $4,500 Maint fees and take on just one $2,800 Maint fee for Hawaii.  WKORV and WKORVN are mandatory and probably sell for about that price now from the Developer.
> 
> Of course, you could just keep what you own and purchase Hawaii for less than $18k resale but you would just be adding to your annual fees.
> 
> So, dump the Flex .... purchase Hawaii from the Developer and you get what you want.  You can make reservations at 12 months and reduce your Maint fees in about half.


They may not be willing to give them the $70K credit to take back what they own to purchase a Hawaii week. It seems that they are pretty aggressive in trying to buy back inventory to sell someone flex. They made us a similar offer at SVV last weekend. We could have walked away with 114K Flex Options for $17,000 all while giving them back our two mandatory SVV weeks. We declined.


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## TravelTime (Jun 6, 2018)

Gatorlaw230 said:


> Hi fellow Tuggers,
> 
> I just bought Westin Flex (which covers 7 resorts in West coast including 3 Hawaiis and WKV) while I attended WDW owner’s update 2 days ago. I have 8 more days to rescind, so I am seeking veterans’ advice before it is too late.
> 
> ...



Frankly, I think you are getting a great deal and I would probably have bought too given the trade in value they gave you. I would probably have some buyer’s remorse too and check it out on TUG, like you are doing. I am not as experienced as other Tuggers but on the surface, I think being able to book all those desireable resorts at 12 months would be worth $18,000. IMO, it would depend on whether you are using the 5 resorts you have now or if you would prefer to be able to travel to The 7 home resorts you are getting in exchange, esp Hawaii which is hard to book at 8 months in peak season. I paid $12,000 for an EOY WKOVR-N oceanfront 2 bedroom lockoff that comes with approx 176K points EOY (about 88K points annually), with MFs of $2600 (half due annually). Purchasing a mandatory Westin in Hawaii with 176K annual points is between $20K - $40K depending on which Westin resort it is and the unit size and view type. It seems like the deal you are getting for that many points well exceeds the cost if you buy resale, and you are getting more points to use annually. I do not think the salesperson was too wrong about how much it costs to rent in Hawaii during peak season. It is very expensive to stay in Hawaii in the summer and during holidays. I doubt everything the salesperson said was accurate. For example, I am not sure it is true that you can’t rent reservations you make using Flex Points. As mentioned in other threads, all timeshares allow rentals as long as it is not for commercial use, which is not usually clearly defined.


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## TravelTime (Jun 6, 2018)

lizap said:


> I would definitely rescind.  No one knows what Marriott is going to do; they may very well modify it - there's a good chance it is likely to be devalued as Marriott is likely to offer us a chance to buy into a points system at a much lower cost, as they did with Marriott owners. .  Hyatt has a similar program, PPP, and it is believed by most on the Hyatt forum that it is a flop/not selling well. BTW, just returned from Hawaii (2 weeks) using SOs, booked 8 months out.



Caution about what MVC might do is a good point. However, I suspect the 235K SOs will have more value in the new MVC program than 5 unenrolled weeks esp the ones the OP has that come with no SOs. But who knows?


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## Gatorlaw230 (Jun 6, 2018)

Thank you for all your inputs so far. I really appreciate it.

TravelTime: It is absolutely okay to rent out for resorts booked by using Flex Options. (for 7 home resorts) But they said that it is "illegal" to rent out for resorts booked by using SOs if the resorts are not your home resorts. In other words, they said that I cannot rent out Hawaii resort even if I am lucky enough to secure it by using SOs I got from SVV mandatory resort.


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## duke (Jun 6, 2018)

Gatorlaw230 said:


> Thank you for all your inputs so far. I really appreciate it.
> 
> TravelTime: It is absolutely okay to rent out for resorts booked by using Flex Options. (for 7 home resorts) But they said that it is "illegal" to rent out for resorts booked by using SOs if the resorts are not your home resorts. In other words, they said that I cannot rent out Hawaii resort even if I am lucky enough to secure it by using SOs I got from SVV mandatory resort.



Illegal, the Federal Timeshare Police are watching you now.


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## canesfan (Jun 6, 2018)

Gatorlaw230 said:


> Thank you for all your inputs so far. I really appreciate it.
> 
> TravelTime: It is absolutely okay to rent out for resorts booked by using Flex Options. (for 7 home resorts) But they said that it is "illegal" to rent out for resorts booked by using SOs if the resorts are not your home resorts. In other words, they said that I cannot rent out Hawaii resort even if I am lucky enough to secure it by using SOs I got from SVV mandatory resort.



Yes, it’s against the ownership agreement. You can only rent your home resort. 

In the past, you haven’t had luck reserving Maui at 8 months with SOs? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## blondietink (Jun 6, 2018)

From your explanation, I think you are getting a petty good deal. Unloading all of those weeks and their associated member fees and trying to keep track of all of it is probably worth the price of admission.  While I am not a fan of the Flex product, I think in your case it works to both simplify your life and get you into Hawaii which is ultimately where you want to go. We have 3 timeshare total and it is difficult to manage some times.  As others have said, you could buy direct at one of the other resorts in Hawaii that are mandatory for less, but they probably will not get you a better deal in turning the weeks you already own.  The fact is that they might not even take any of them back and you would still be stuck trying to manage all the weeks that you have.


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## Gatorlaw230 (Jun 6, 2018)

canesfan said:


> Yes, it’s against the ownership agreement. You can only rent your home resort.
> 
> In the past, you haven’t had luck reserving Maui at 8 months with SOs?
> 
> ...



No to any of Vistana Hawaii resorts so far because we were not flexible.

Since me & my wife are both in corporate world with kids go to school, all the weeks we wanted were very high demand weeks.

So this deal attracted us because we can book Hawaii resorts at 12 months out. However, as they admitted, availability could be an issue since inventory pools are different for Flex...

Thanks for sharing it though.


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## Gatorlaw230 (Jun 6, 2018)

blondietink said:


> From your explanation, I think you are getting a petty good deal. Unloading all of those weeks and their associated member fees and trying to keep track of all of it is probably worth the price of admission.  While I am not a fan of the Flex product, I think in your case it works to both simplify your life and get you into Hawaii which is ultimately where you want to go. We have 3 timeshare total and it is difficult to manage some times.  As others have said, you could buy direct at one of the other resorts in Hawaii that are mandatory for less, but they probably will not get you a better deal in turning the weeks you already own.  The fact is that they might not even take any of them back and you would still be stuck trying to manage all the weeks that you have.




That is exactly why we signed the contract. (with intention to cancel it later after get more advice from here) I have never had an intention to buy timeshare from developer and did not do it from several past owner's updates. As dioxide45 mentioned, they were very aggressive to push Flex now to make it happen.

My only concern is resale value for this new Westin Flex. Although Hawaii deeded week (mandatory) is expensive, it seems that it holds the value as well as WKV Plat week. For Flex, I don't know how much it will hold the value if I want to unload it later. Sheraton Flex's resale value scared me a lot, but I thought that having 3 Hawaiis with WKV would be a little different. But who knows...


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## dioxide45 (Jun 6, 2018)

I do think that Westin Flex may retain a little more resale value than Sheraton Flex. It does have access to a better collection of properties at 12 months. I think your resale value is probably better now than it was with what you had previously.


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## canesfan (Jun 6, 2018)

I’ll be honest I don’t think Westin Flex is going to hold much resale. You only have $18k (plus $4k of your initial resale’s) invested vs. others will have more. It won’t be useless but won’t be the mandatory resale value. Just look at the difference between WKORV and WPORV.  As the salesman said to me, Westin Flex is cabbage soup and they threw some steak in there. Remember it’s all Island view inventory too.

I agree with the others that the only thing better would be to try buying a deeded week at WKORV/N.  In March they offered us a deed when we said we weren’t interested in any points products, only deeded. I’m sure they want your WKV deed for Flex. They were hot for my WLR deed for Adventuras. You need to weigh whether it’s worth it to you to go back to the drawing board negotiating. They may not give as much $ for trade in for a deeded property. 

In the end, I think you are better off having a product you will use and can get a reservation at a time you desire. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pacman777 (Jun 7, 2018)

seems like an okay deal given the credits. The only mistake I see is that you should’ve requalified 3 voluntary ownership weeks worth 148k staroptions each along with your purchase of 3 packaged 81k flex options. Was that even an option or consideration?


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## dioxide45 (Jun 7, 2018)

pacman777 said:


> seems like an okay deal given the credits. The only mistake I see is that you should’ve requalified 3 voluntary ownership weeks worth 148k staroptions each along with your purchase of 3 packaged 81k flex options. Was that even an option or consideration?


I don't think they would have received the credit for those weeks when they re-qualified, so the buy-in cost would have been much higher?


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## lizap (Jun 7, 2018)

canesfan said:


> I’ll be honest I don’t think Westin Flex is going to hold much resale. You only have $18k (plus $4k of your initial resale’s) invested vs. others will have more. It won’t be useless but won’t be the mandatory resale value. Just look at the difference between WKORV and WPORV.  As the salesman said to me, Westin Flex is cabbage soup and they threw some steak in there. Remember it’s all Island view inventory too.
> 
> I agree with the others that the only thing better would be to try buying a deeded week at WKORV/N.  In March they offered us a deed when we said we weren’t interested in any points products, only deeded. I’m sure they want your WKV deed for Flex. They were hot for my WLR deed for Adventuras. You need to weigh whether it’s worth it to you to go back to the drawing board negotiating. They may not give as much $ for trade in for a deeded property.
> 
> ...



Completely agree.


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## Gatorlaw230 (Jun 7, 2018)

pacman777 said:


> seems like an okay deal given the credits. The only mistake I see is that you should’ve requalified 3 voluntary ownership weeks worth 148k staroptions each along with your purchase of 3 packaged 81k flex options. Was that even an option or consideration?



Great point. I totally forgot about requal/retro when I was there. But I don't think they will retro/requal for weeks I trade-in. I have one more week for SDO Plat (1BR) which I didn't want to include for trade-in.

I just asked my salesperson for possibility to retro/requal for that SDO week at this point before I consider to cancel the deal. He just called me and gave me detail information how to cancel the contract. (Basically, director told him that let buyer cancel this deal if buyer is not happy for this "great" deal.) Is this new sales tactic? BTW, salespersons at WDW were very nice and professional.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 7, 2018)

canesfan said:


> I’ll be honest I don’t think Westin Flex is going to hold much resale. You only have $18k (plus $4k of your initial resale’s) invested vs. others will have more. It won’t be useless but won’t be the mandatory resale value. Just look at the difference between WKORV and WPORV.





lizap said:


> Completely agree.


Westin Flex certainly has a lot more utility than WPORV. I don't think that is really a fair comparison. Of the main Hawaiian islands, Kauai sees the fewest visitors. There simply isn't as much demand for Kauai. THe fact that a voluntary resale at WPORV can only be used at WPORV will certainly drive down its price. However, Westin Flex can be used at any of the three Maui properties as well as the mainland properties as well at the 12 month mark. While it perhaps won't have the best resale value, I suspect it will be better than Sheraton Flex and WPORV.


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## LobsterHunter (Jun 7, 2018)

I didn't know if I should post it here or on the retro thread, but I posted it on the retro thread.  Feel free to look at what our purchase of WF was w/a couple retro units.  Mod can re-post it here if they think it belongs here too.


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## darius (Jun 7, 2018)

To the OP, I think that's a great developer deal.   Also, all the work is done for you (vs. selling individual weeks with minimal to no value).   If it were me, for what it is worth, I would keep this offer and enjoy it.


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## canesfan (Jun 7, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> Westin Flex certainly has a lot more utility than WPORV. I don't think that is really a fair comparison. Of the main Hawaiian islands, Kauai sees the fewest visitors. There simply isn't as much demand for Kauai. THe fact that a voluntary resale at WPORV can only be used at WPORV will certainly drive down its price. However, Westin Flex can be used at any of the three Maui properties as well as the mainland properties as well at the 12 month mark. While it perhaps won't have the best resale value, I suspect it will be better than Sheraton Flex and WPORV.



I agree it will have better than Sheraton Flex but it’s not going to have the same resale value as a Maui Mandatory resale. BTW, it only has 2 Maui properties. Nanea is its own pool unless I’m mistaken. And you are making my point that it has only a couple good properties and some less desirable. Which is why the resale will not be Nanea comparable either. 
I think the OP did well on the deal though and in the end shouldn’t worry so much about resale but usage. 


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## controller1 (Jun 7, 2018)

canesfan said:


> I agree it will have better than Sheraton Flex but it’s not going to have the same resale value as a Maui Mandatory resale. BTW, it only has 2 Maui properties. Nanea is its own pool unless I’m mistaken. And you are making my point that it has only a couple good properties and some less desirable. Which is why the resale will not be Nanea comparable either.
> I think the OP did well on the deal though and in the end shouldn’t worry so much about resale but usage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I agree.  It's not a bad deal as long as you use it each year.  And yes, the only Maui properties in Westin Flex are the two KORV properties.


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## dioxide45 (Jun 7, 2018)

You are right, Nanea is on a different plan and not in Flex. I agree it won't have resale value anywhere close to WKORV north or south. I would put it significantly less. But I suspect it will fall between where Nanea Home Options and comparable resale value of Princeville.


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## vacationtime1 (Jun 7, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> You are right, Nanea is on a different plan and not in Flex. I agree it won't have resale value anywhere close to WKORV north or south. I would put it significantly less. But I suspect it will fall between where Nanea Home Options and comparable resale value of Princeville.



It will ultimately depend on the experience of owners getting (or not getting) the reservations they want.  I suspect that the Westin Flex Trust will have too many off-season Palm Desert weeks and not enough Hawaii.  And we know that none of the Hawaii weeks will be ocean front (Princeville doesn't have OF and Vistana is not putting WKORV/N OF weeks into this trust).  Further, the trust has no good way to get Kierland weeks other than buying them on the open market because Vistana does not have ROFR on Kierland.  The fact that Vistana is not aggressively buying Kierland platinum weeks, even at current sub-$15K prices, makes me question how Vistana plans to populate the trust with the weeks it will need, because I don't see Kierland owners as likely to trade their deeds (and pay money) to get Westin Flex points when they can already get any of the Westin Flex properties using StarOptions and MF's for the trust appear to be at least 50% higher than for Kierland.

The sales staff will undoubtedly push the benefit of being able to reserve at the 12 month mark rather than at 8 months, but there is NO WAY this trust will have enough summer and vacation weeks in Hawaii to meet the demand, just as it will not have ski weeks at Riverfront to meet the demand for ski weeks which is the other "sizzle" of the Westin Flex trust.


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## DannyTS (Jun 8, 2018)

vacationtime1 said:


> I suspect that the Westin Flex Trust will have too many off-season Palm Desert weeks and not enough Hawaii.  And we know that none of the Hawaii weeks will be ocean front (Princeville doesn't have OF and Vistana is not putting WKORV/N OF weeks into this trust).



I think that people that buy into Westin flex should be shown some data to prove that the reservation in the places they want is not going to be a problem. It is a bit like buying a cell phone plan from a new carrier without knowing if they have coverage in your area. If booking is not a problem, the package you got seems like a decent proposal especially given the improved flexibility and easier management for you. I still think that a price within a 11-13k would be more tempting to me if I were in your shoes. 

I would insist though part of the deal to have a FOC guaranteed inclusion if any  MVDC is offered in the future to Westin Flex owners. I think that legally they cannot do it since the takeover has not happened yet but I would hate to spend all that new money just to find out that there is a new offer on the table 18 months from now. Even if it is a stretch, i would still ask the question just to hear their answer.


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## lizap (Jun 8, 2018)

DannyTS said:


> I think that people that buy into Westin flex should be shown some data to prove that the reservation in the places they want is not going to be a problem. It is a bit like buying a cell phone plan from a new carrier without knowing if they have coverage in your area. If booking is not a problem, the package you got seems like a decent proposal especially given the improved flexibility and easier management for you. I still think that a price within a 11-13k would be more tempting to me if I were in your shoes.
> 
> I would insist though part of the deal to have a FOC guaranteed inclusion if any  MVDC is offered in the future to Westin Flex owners. I think that legally they cannot do it since the takeover has not happened yet but I would hate to spend all that new money just to find out that there is a new offer on the table 18 months from now. Even if it is a stretch, i would still ask the question just to hear their answer.



The big issue here is what MVC will do with FLEX.  I don't know how FLEX is doing, but many believe a similar Hyatt program, PPP, is a flop/not selling well.  My guess is MVC will allow Hyatt and Vistana members to buy into MVC, or a similar program, at a nominal cost, similar to what they did at Marriott. Pretty sure there are going to be changes to the Hyatt and Vistana systems. This will greatly devalue FLEX. Would not touch FLEX, unless you are a big gambler.


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## pchung6 (Jun 8, 2018)

If your goal is to use Westin Flex to book Maui at 12 months, I would lower the expectation.  I do not believe there will be enough Maui units available in Flex.  Let's assume most of the Flex have the same thoughts to book at 12 months, the chance may not be higher than using Staroptions to book at 8 months mark.  I also believe the Westin Flex will have most of these low season Palm Desert weeks and not enough Hawaii.  I would rescind and just buy 3 SVV Bella 81k instead, low buy in and lower HOA.  At least, I would try to get an 148k deed week requal in your deal if you decide to keep...


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## bogey21 (Jun 8, 2018)

Gatorlaw230 said:


> Below is my timeshares they bought back from me for $70K
> -SVR 2BR annual
> -SVV St. Augustine 2BR LO annual
> -SDO 2BR LO 1-52 float EOY
> ...



First let me state that I know nothing at all about Westin Flex.  Having said this let me say that the ability to get out of the 5 timeshares listed above, their MFs, and the hassle of dealing with and ultimately disposing of them would have a positive impact on my decision.

George


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## duke (Jun 8, 2018)

canesfan said:


> I think the OP did well on the deal though and in the end shouldn’t worry so much about resale but usage.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



He did not do well on the deal if his goal was to book WKORV - WKORVN at 12 months and get OV.
These Flex Pools are filled with small amounts of WKORV and mostly IV.
Will be great if he wants to go to Palm Springs in the Summer though.


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## Sicnarf (Jun 8, 2018)

So, there has been a lot of speculations about the flex products not having the "good" inventory to back it up.  Sheraton flex has been out for 2+ years and I haven't heard of any complaints with people not getting reservations at 12 months.  I do hear bunch of existing WKORV and WKORVN owners not able to book at 12 months. Anyway that's my 2 cents having converted a bunch of svv 67k VOIs to Sheraton flexx.


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## pchung6 (Jun 8, 2018)

bogey21 said:


> First let me state that I know nothing at all about Westin Flex.  Having said this let me say that the ability to get out of the 5 timeshares listed above, their MFs, and the hassle of dealing with and ultimately disposing of them would have a positive impact on my decision.
> 
> George



I'm pretty sure most of these 5 timeshares can be unloaded.

-SVR 2BR annual (Might be difficult to give away depending on the season)
-SVV St. Augustine 2BR LO annual (If Platinum season, can give away.)
-SDO 2BR LO 1-52 float EOY (Can give away)
-SMV 1BR Ski season EOY (Can "Easily" give away)
-WKV 2BR LO Gold Plus EOY (81,000 SOs) (Can give away, might have some value)


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## Gatorlaw230 (Jun 8, 2018)

I am not desperately seeking to unload these timeshares I own (if I rescind this deal) because we are enjoying our portfolio so far. Since I have 2 little kids, we go to Orlando annually with families or friends, love baseball to go to SDO in Spring (every other year), go to ski every other year and use 81,000 SOs to book elsewhere for short stays. I just felt that 81K SOs EOY is too little for us (to try Bahama or Hawaii), and it was hard to book Hawaii week at 8 months out. (Maybe I was not lucky. If I were more flexible for dates, I might be able to get it at 8 months out.) That was why I was interested in this deal.
Also, I thought that managing points will be a lot easier than managing all weeks. For Orlando and/or Scottsdale, I normally stay only 4-5 nights and always lost a few nights unused.

But I am not sure whether $18K upfront cost could be justified for this and unsure about future with upcoming changes with Marriott.

I am now leaning toward to rescind this contract, instead buy SVV mandatory week (81K SOs) when I see a good deal (under $1000) and will give away one of my Orlando week to my friend. (or fellow Tuggers here)

Thank you all. I thought that I am pretty knowledgeable about timeshares and its system, but I need to learn more from veteran Tuggers!


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## taterhed (Jun 9, 2018)

Gatorlaw230 said:


> I am not desperately seeking to unload these timeshares I own (if I rescind this deal) because we are enjoying our portfolio so far. Since I have 2 little kids, we go to Orlando annually with families or friends, love baseball to go to SDO in Spring (every other year), go to ski every other year and use 81,000 SOs to book elsewhere for short stays. I just felt that 81K SOs EOY is too little for us (to try Bahama or Hawaii), and it was hard to book Hawaii week at 8 months out. (Maybe I was not lucky. If I were more flexible for dates, I might be able to get it at 8 months out.) That was why I was interested in this deal.
> Also, I thought that managing points will be a lot easier than managing all weeks. For Orlando and/or Scottsdale, I normally stay only 4-5 nights and always lost a few nights unused.
> 
> But I am not sure whether $18K upfront cost could be justified for this and unsure about future with upcoming changes with Marriott.
> ...



Sounds like a good plan......but here's another thought.

I think you've got a bit of the 'VSE blinders.'  You're considering investing some more money into a vacation asset to allow you to reach a destination which requires more SO's than you have.  Sounds like you need 'home' priority as well; or a similar advantage.

Consider expanding into a different brand of timeshare that meets your destination goals and might allow you better access to Hawaii and the Caribbean.   Of course I'm suggesting Marriott, but Worldmark is also a good suggestion.   Prices on Marriott are very good right now and they offer some excellent options for both locales.  Also, Marriott preference can allow some great exchanges in II and Eplus can get sweet upgrades.  Worldmark has very good Hawaii resorts (not 4-5 star, but nice) and, more importantly, offers access to both RCI and II and can get some great trades.  Really.  The liberal cancellation policy allows you to book at 12 mos, search and then cancel if you get a match.  Lot's of different strategies, but really, a good affordable and flexible trader with some nice resorts.

Just a thought.....


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## LobsterHunter (Jun 22, 2018)

Not trying to push Westin Flex, and I'm still not sure if we will be able to get any good ski weeks at WRF, but we just bought two Westin Flex 148,100 packages for $16K (trading in 2 VBC that we paid $1/ea for, and 1 WKORN EY and 1 WKORN EOY) and retro'd in a 148,100 SDO & SMV (also posted this on the retro thread).  I was skeptical about the Maui availability in summer with WF.  Just checked today and I could book a 2br L/O at either WKOR or WKORN for 2 weeks checking in June 22 '19, or even longer if I wanted to stay in a 1br or studio, and this was at 1700 EST (not 0000.01 EST...or 1 second after midnight).  Anyway, the availability may not be as bad as some are making it sound, BUT the MF's are no cheaper the WKORN.


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## pacman777 (Jun 22, 2018)

LobsterHunter said:


> Not trying to push Westin Flex, and I'm still not sure if we will be able to get any good ski weeks at WRF, but we just bought two Westin Flex 148,100 packages for $16K (trading in 2 VBC that we paid $1/ea for, and 1 WKORN EY and 1 WKORN EOY) and retro'd in a 148,100 SDO & SMV (also posted this on the retro thread).  I was skeptical about the Maui availability in summer with WF.  Just checked today and I could book a 2br L/O at either WKOR or WKORN for 2 weeks checking in June 22 '19, or even longer if I wanted to stay in a 1br or studio, and this was at 1700 EST (not 0000.01 EST...or 1 second after midnight).  Anyway, the availability may not be as bad as some are making it sound, BUT the MF's are no cheaper the WKORN.



So your net cash outlay total was $16k for 396.2k staroptions and you were able to retro two other voluntary resorts for another 396.2k staroptions? So now you have 782.4k staroptions all for $16k out of pocket? Sounds like a great deal if that is the case


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## dsmrp (Jun 22, 2018)

pacman777 said:


> So your net cash outlay total was $16k for 396.2k staroptions and you were able to retro two other voluntary resorts for another 396.2k staroptions? So now you have 782.4k staroptions all for $16k out of pocket? Sounds like a great deal if that is the case



A typo perhaps in your numbers,  296.2K options  rather than 396.2 for a total of 592.4K options.
Still sounds pretty good to me.

I think Vistana let  pacman777 trade in 2 VBC units cause he had WKORN to trade in too.


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## canesfan (Jun 23, 2018)

I don’t view turning in 2 mandatory deeds that have resale value into Westin Flex voluntary as a positive. But YMMV! 


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## LobsterHunter (Jun 24, 2018)

canesfan said:


> I don’t view turning in 2 mandatory deeds that have resale value into Westin Flex voluntary as a positive. But YMMV!
> 
> 
> Well, I guess it's too early to tell.  The mandatory deeds probably only have a $15k combined value.  I know Sheraton Flex does not have much value, but I believe the Westin Flex will have more value then a Platinum WMH or WDW which seem to be in the $3-5K range.  My observation was that the dire predictions of no summer weeks being available in Hawaii under WF, does not appear to be true.  IF the WF is only worth $8k resale tomorrow, I could sell 1 & come out ahead of where I was, or sell both & be way ahead.  I have not found any resale WF, so I don't know.  But then I almost certainly wouldn't be able to book 4 consecutive summer weeks in Hawaii (2 weeks ea in a studio/1br) which I can do with WF, but not with SO or even owning there, w/the exception of doing that EOY at WKORN only w/4 different reser #'s.  What I did may not work for some, but it works for us.


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## KACTravels (Jul 6, 2018)

Gatorlaw230 said:


> I am now leaning toward to rescind this contract, instead buy SVV mandatory week (81K SOs) when I see a good deal (under $1000) and will give away one of my Orlando week to my friend. (or fellow Tuggers here)
> 
> Thank you all. I thought that I am pretty knowledgeable about timeshares and its system, but I need to learn more from veteran Tuggers!



Hi Gatorlaw230!  What did you end up doing?


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## cubigbird (Aug 5, 2018)

What’s interesting is that I attended an owners update recently and the sales person told me that Westin Flex is mostly Hawaii weeks.  Additionally they stated that you can book any week at any time and that’s why EVERYONE is converting.  I countered asking to book weeks like Riverfront at New Years and Kierland during spring training.  They said you can do it easily, I asked them to then put it in writing......of course they didn’t.  Be careful, there is a lot of misrepresentation of Westin Flex going on.....


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 5, 2018)

VSE can’t sell more inventory that they own.  The Flex inventory will be limited in Maui based on the number of WKORV/N VOIs that are turned into Flex, or acquired thru ROFR.

Are a lot of WKORV/N Owners exchanging their VOIs into Flex? I doubt it. What is the benefit? To go to lessor Resorts?


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## controller1 (Aug 5, 2018)

DavidnRobin said:


> VSE can’t sell more inventory that they own.  The Flex inventory will be limited in Maui based on the number of WKORV/N VOIs that are turned into Flex, or acquired thru ROFR.
> 
> Are a lot of WKORV/N Owners exchanging their VOIs into Flex? I doubt it. What is the benefit? To go to lessor Resorts?



There must be enough of them exchanging their VOIs into Flex. I didn't exchange a VOI into Flex but I do own Westin Flex and I've been checking every few days to check on availability and there has been no problem in finding WKORV/N availability at the 11-12 month range.


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## cubigbird (Aug 6, 2018)

I wonder how many folks are trading in thinking they will get access to Hawaii whenever they want???  They are going to be in for quite a shock.  Salespeople are leading folks to believe they are going to stop allowing silver and gold season weeks to trade in at some point.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 6, 2018)

It seems the sales pitch is working. They were pretty agressive trying to get us to turn in our mandatory SVV weeks and buy some Sheraton Flex points. I think they see this as the way to kill the mandatory resales.


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## controller1 (Aug 6, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> It seems the sales pitch is working. They were pretty agressive trying to get us to turn in our mandatory SVV weeks and buy some Sheraton Flex points. I think they see this as the way to kill the mandatory resales.



Yes, buy Sheraton Flex is much different than Westin Flex.  You're not going to be making a Home Resort reservation in Maui with Sheraton Flex.


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 7, 2018)

controller1 said:


> Yes, buy Sheraton Flex is much different than Westin Flex.  You're not going to be making a Home Resort reservation in Maui with Sheraton Flex.



Correct, but Sheraton Flex will have a Hawaii property -- on Kauai.  Sheraton Flex will then boast of a ski property and a Hawaii property.  Although most of the units actually owned by that trust are on the east coast.


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## blondietink (Aug 7, 2018)

We will be staying at SVV for a whole 3 nights in October.  I'm sure they will be hounding us to attend an update.  Nope, not this time and I will tell them that with the uncertainty with the merger, we will not be attending any updates in the near future.


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## undercover (Aug 6, 2019)

Question for the experts:

I am currently at Kierland and went for an owners update yesterday.

I currently own:

2 weeks in a 2 BR lockoff EOY at Westin Princeville Ocean Resort Villas that we paid $48,900 from the developer during construction in ~2007. I wish I had found TUG back then.  It's actually 2 separate deeds - I bought one for $24,450 and my father bought one for $24,450 but my father is willing to deal if the situation is right, so for the sake of this conversation, just assume both deeds are mine. Our MFs are approximately $1,675 per year (EVERY YEAR) even though we only have an EOY deed...so MFs of $3,350 total every 2 years for EACH deed.

So at the owners update, they were really pushing the Westin Flex program. Apparently Nanea has recently been added to the FLEX portfolio and the salesman was "suggesting" that St. John would most likely be added later this year (but no guarantees).

They proposed that we trade in BOTH deeds. We would get credit for the $48,900 original sales price, and they asked us to kick in 10K in cash.

In return, we would now get:
- 162K StarOptions EVERY YEAR (right now we're getting 296,200 EOY)

OR

- 281K StarOptions EVERY OTHER YEAR

- MFs would be "about the same" as what we're now paying every year

His sales pitch was basically this:  Right now, I can ONLY book my home resort (WPORV) at 12 months out.  Anything else, I can only hope to book at 8 months out.  With the FLEX program, I can now book ANY of the FLEX properties at 12 months out. So in theory, I could book at WKORV, WKORV-N, Nanea, WPORV, blah, blah, blah at peak times - Christmas, New Year, spring break, etc because ALL of the properties in the FLEX program are considered now to be my home Resort. 

With the caveat that WKORV and WKORV-N still have separate Christmas inventory, so actually those properties cannot be booked at Christmas. However he made a big point to say that Nanea was like all the others and did NOT have those Christmas week exceptions.

So, after reading ALOT of blog posts on TUG tonight, it sounds like the consensus is that owning WPORV (which I do) pretty much sucks. It's not a "mandatory" property, the demand is low, and the chances to rent the property for top dollar are slim.

So even though the FLEX program isn't great because it loses the StarOptions upon resale, I don't really hold any illusions that I'll ever be able to re-sell any of these things - FLEX or what I currently own. So I just want to own the best thing that allows me access to the best properties at the most desired times. Is forking over another 10K to these con artists worth the anticipated upside or should I just keep trudging along with the crap I've got?  Thanks.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 6, 2019)

Tough one.
$10K more total, or $10K per EOY? 
I think they are looking for $20K in additional cash.

We own WPORV EOY as well, and enjoy our ownership.  I bought pre-construction , and already knew about TUG and had already bought WKORV, WSJ and WKV resale.
(classic thread on this...)

We use WPORV and reserve exactly at 12 months and have always received the best locations (important to us). We use the 1Bd side and use the studio side for 6nites in a 1Bd (using the studio SOs at 8 months).  I am happy with our WPORV, but the MFs are brutal.  IMO WPORV is really a Resort to use and not exchange due to the the MFs.

Should you go to FLEX? My instinct says no - do not throw good money after bad (so to speak).  The salesperson is certainly stretching the truth about Flex availability- especially if you are not one tonplan exactly at 12 months (or exactly at 8 months).  You will have competition with other Flex Owners - especially for Nanea 1Bd (if that is what you are looking for...) as the inventory only comes from Flex.  That could be IV at WKORV/N and poorer location villas at Nanea.

It really depends on whether you are going to get the usage you want.
Them giving you $48K for your WPORV is sweet considering they are worth less than $10K on resale market.
Good luck.


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## vacationtime1 (Aug 6, 2019)

undercover said:


> Question for the experts:
> 
> I am currently at Kierland and went for an owners update yesterday.
> 
> ...




Random observations:

162K Westin FlexOptions annually is better than 281K eoy -- because assuming one can bank FlexOptions as one can bank StarOptions, if you own 162K annually, you can have 324K StarOptions eoy.

I would verify that the Westin Flex Trust owns Nanea Christmas / New Years weeks.  But even if it does, I wouldn't buy into it on the hope that you will be able to reserve those very desireable weeks on an ongoing basis.

One way to look at your decision is this:  how many more years do you think you will do timesharing?  Divide the $10,000 upfront cost by that number of years to get the cost/year of having a more diversified choice of timeshares to reserve.


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## Ken555 (Aug 6, 2019)

It may also be worth considering what you could buy for $10,000 on the resale market. Perhaps think outside of VSN...Marriott? Hyatt? Hilton? There are many you can buy for $10k, open up locations you can travel to, have the satisfaction of not giving any more money to the “con artists”, etc. Then give away your WPORV weeks and be happy with what you have. Lots of options. 


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## CPNY (Aug 7, 2019)

Gatorlaw230 said:


> In other words, they said that I cannot rent out Hawaii resort even if I am lucky enough to secure it by using SOs I got from SVV mandatory resort.



I guess I was very lucky since I’ve had my mandatory SVV a for three years and was able to get the date I wanted and oceanfront villa at 8 month mark.


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## CPNY (Aug 7, 2019)

Gatorlaw230 said:


> Hi fellow Tuggers,
> 
> I just bought Westin Flex (which covers 7 resorts in West coast including 3 Hawaiis and WKV) while I attended WDW owner’s update 2 days ago. I have 8 more days to rescind, so I am seeking veterans’ advice before it is too late.
> 
> ...


The bright side is you now have a lot of star options! Enjoy using them


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## Henry M. (Aug 7, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I guess I was very lucky since I’ve had my mandatory SVV a for three years and was able to get the date I wanted and oceanfront villa at 8 month mark.



I think what the salesman was saying is that you cannot rent out to others a week you exchange into. You can use your SVV Staroptions to exchange into Hawaii, but once you do that, you are not allowed to rent out the Hawaii week to others. This is clearly stated in the confirmation e-mail you receive when you make a reservation:

_Rental of units reserved using StarOptions® (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited. Violation may result in the suspension of an Owner’s right to reserve within the Vistana Signature Network™ (VSN) until compliant._​Some people do it anyway, and get away with it. However, that is clearly against the rules and a violation of the spirit of the rules. It could result in the renters not having lodging when they arrive and a nasty situation all around.


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## CPNY (Aug 7, 2019)

Henry M. said:


> I think what the salesman was saying is that you cannot rent out to others a week you exchange into. You can use your SVV Staroptions to exchange into Hawaii, but once you do that, you are not allowed to rent out the Hawaii week to others. This is clearly stated in the confirmation e-mail you receive when you make a reservation:
> 
> _Rental of units reserved using StarOptions® (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited. Violation may result in the suspension of an Owner’s right to reserve within the Vistana Signature Network™ (VSN) until compliant._​Some people do it anyway, and get away with it. However, that is clearly against the rules and a violation of the spirit of the rules. It could result in the renters not having lodging when they arrive and a nasty situation all around.


My aunt and uncle used my star options last year for Hawaii. Thankfully that didn’t happen. I have so many staroptions I often give them away. 

I guess I read the “if I was lucky enough to get a reservation using SVV SO” as it would be difficult. I agree on the rental situation, correct cannot rent etc. however, it’s not too difficult to book hawaii at 8 months for yourself lol.


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## Henry M. (Aug 7, 2019)

I think it is OK to let family and friends use your week. You just can't rent it out. An unsuspecting renter might comment about the rental.


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## pchung6 (Aug 7, 2019)

Is it ok to let your "Friends" to use and "Friends" reimburse you the costs of SOs?


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## controller1 (Aug 7, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> Is it ok to let your "Friends" to use and "Friends" reimburse you the costs of SOs?



If you have to place Friends in quotes then you know the answer!


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## Henry M. (Aug 7, 2019)

I'm not sure what part of 

_Rental of units reserved using StarOptions® (other than a vacation period at your Home Resort) is prohibited._​
is not clear. If money changes hands, it is a rental. You might come up with ways to hide it or otherwise obfuscate the matter, but the rule is pretty clear.


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## DavidnRobin (Aug 7, 2019)

People were/are taking advantage of the system to the detriment to those Owners following the rules that we agreed when taking over the VOI (Developer or Resale).

For example: Reserving WKORV/N using low $/SOs from other resorts, and then renting them out.

The detriment is that it potentially prevents Owners using SOs correctly to gain access to WKORV/N (Pillar 2 of VSE Ownership) because they have been blocked off for personal gain. 

Feel free to blame me - I got this text added to reservation confirmations by SVN (S. Clarke SVP Owner Services) after discussion of this topic (what the CCRs state - and abuse of system).  Took a while - I think I started around 2013/14 when Tugger Glorian bought up the topic because some here (and elsewhere) were renting SOs as a business. But a TUG no-no for renting II exchanges...
(that still goes on).


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## CPNY (Aug 11, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> Is it ok to let your "Friends" to use and "Friends" reimburse you the costs of SOs?


I don’t see issues with it. If you own hundreds of thousands of star options and are renting 15 weeks a year then that could create a problem. I had friends use my star options in Hawaii and they covered the annual fees. I’m talking legit friends. People say that it’s wrong. I don’t see where it’s an issue. I told them where they could go and they chose Hawaii I got them a week that worked for them to go (not in prime season) they paid the maint fee online and went. I’m def in the minority when it comes to that though. I generally wouldn’t rent weeks for people unless it’s at my home resort.


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## dioxide45 (Aug 11, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I don’t see issues with it. If you own hundreds of thousands of star options and are renting 15 weeks a year then that could create a problem. I had friends use my star options in Hawaii and they covered the annual fees. I’m talking legit friends. People say that it’s wrong. I don’t see where it’s an issue. I told them where they could go and they chose Hawaii I got them a week that worked for them to go (not in prime season) they paid the maint fee online and went. I’m def in the minority when it comes to that though. I generally wouldn’t rent weeks for people unless it’s at my home resort.


Vistana says "commercial purposes". I would not consider reimbursement of MFs a commercial operation and Vistana doesn't define commercial in their documents. They also charge a guest fee. So I suspect they don't care. Just don't go advertising SO reservations on the big rental sites...


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## CPNY (Aug 11, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Vistana says "commercial purposes". I would not consider reimbursement of MFs a commercial operation and Vistana doesn't define commercial in their documents. They also charge a guest fee. So I suspect they don't care. Just don't go advertising SO reservations on the big rental sites...


I agree, but some feel that even having them pay for maint fee is a rental and against the rules. I’m with you on the renting of units. They prob enjoy it since they charge for the name change now. Although, they always ask me when i call to change it if it’s a rental.


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## pchung6 (Aug 11, 2019)

CPNY said:


> I agree, but some feel that even having them pay for maint fee is a rental and against the rules. I’m with you on the renting of units. They prob enjoy it since they charge for the name change now. Although, they always ask me when i call to change it if it’s a rental.


I'm with you. Letting someone to use your SO and get reimbursed shouldn't be considered as rental in my opinion. How to prove you are "commercial purposed" when you just get your money back with no profit?


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## CPNY (Aug 11, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> I'm with you. Letting someone to use your SO and get reimbursed shouldn't be considered as rental in my opinion. How to prove you are "commercial purposed" when you just get your money back with no profit?


I’d think if you own hundreds of thousands on star options and the ownership is under a commercial entity, you can’t book multiple multiple weeks and change reservations for people maybe? I doubt they are chasing down owners who put a week or two in different resorts under different names.


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## Ken555 (Aug 11, 2019)

I find it amusing that some of you think you can define what VSN considers a rental. 


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## dioxide45 (Aug 11, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> I find it amusing that some of you think you can define what VSN considers a rental.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Without Vistana defining it, it is up to them to enforce it.


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## Ken555 (Aug 11, 2019)

dioxide45 said:


> Without Vistana defining it, it is up to them to enforce it.



Scroll up. They have defined it, and it’s part of every StarOption reservation email. 


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## pchung6 (Aug 11, 2019)

Ken555 said:


> Scroll up. They have defined it, and it’s part of every StarOption reservation email.



Agreed. I shouldn’t rent to my friends, I will just let them use my SOs and have them to pay MF straight to Vistana from my account using their credit card. I should just ask my brother to pay the guest fee next time himself instead of reimbursing me. It’s kind of annoying but I definitely want to follow the rules.


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## CPNY (Aug 11, 2019)

pchung6 said:


> Agreed. I shouldn’t rent to my friends, I will just let them use my SOs and have them to pay MF straight to Vistana from my account using their credit card. I should just ask my brother to pay the guest fee next time himself instead of reimbursing me. It’s kind of annoying but I definitely want to follow the rules.


That’s what I’ve done, had them pay the maint fee with their credit card.


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