# Is the new $30ppd at Vidanta fair - an owners perspective



## mikenk (May 8, 2018)

I have been away from TUG for awhile, It is always interesting to catch back up on discussions. I notice a lot of discussion on the new $30 per person per day surcharge from Vidanta. It would seem that most posts say it is not fair and just another example of Vidanta money grabbing. I thought it might be interesting to throw out an opinion from a long term owner.

Over the years, exchangers have correctly observed that ownership at Vidanta actually makes no sense as it is easy to trade in cheaply; Vidanta leadership has assured that by consistently releasing inventory to exchange companies to maintain occupancy. Many of us owners do have amenities like free golf that does help a bit - but the bottom line is we owners are spending upwards of $1900 to 2000 a week where many exchangers are using a $800 or so MF coupled with $200 or so exchange fee for the same week. That has never seemed fair to me at all; I have made it very clear at every update meeting I attend that I will never spend another penny until they fix that inequality.

INHO, the $30 per person per day goes a long way to solve that problem and I have no problem with it. If exchangers don't want to pay that, then they can use their MF on a different resort. I expect that Vidanta will continually evaluate based on occupancy and cash flow and adjust accordingly.

That said, I do think the exchange companies should make the fee very clear before people book and that Vidanta honors exchanges under the old rules.

Mike


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## Eric B (May 8, 2018)

I’m completely in agreement with you, Mike.  I’m not as long an owner as you, but have noted the significant disparity in costs.  Even with the resort fees, it’s typically much cheaper for me to exchange into Grand Luxxe than to pay a usage fee.

Exchanging is, of course, limited by availability, so it’s tougher getting an exchange in February, or over thanksgiving.  That’s when I would be willing to go through Vidanta instead of exchanging.

Vidanta has a newish system for exchanging with the Registry Collection that gives you two weeks for depositing one GL week at the spa level and up, which gives us a decent way to exchange into the upper tiers in the off season, though it’s still not as good a price as SFX or RCI (now that they’re depositing GL weeks there in RB71).

I support the idea of the resort fee because the system as a whole strikes me as giving a degree of differential pricing that seems fairer than letting exchangers benefit from owners paying more through the usage fees.  Even with the fees, Grand Luxxe strikes me as a bargain.  Greater transparency is always better, of course, particularly when it’s something like an exchange advertising access to the pool or beach club in RM, after it’s been restricted to owners.


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## tschwa2 (May 8, 2018)

I think if they are doing what the 2 of you say they are doing about parity of exchanges then the fee should be a lot lower for the lower Vidanta levels.  While the fee can make sense when exchanging into a larger Luxxe unit it really does not for Mayan Palace.  

On the other hand the points required or exchange power is what is supposed to create parity with exchanges not extra fees.  If Vidanta is that great then it should take me 2-3 years worth of my timeshare to stay there not my 1/3 of the points that I get for a single year at my timeshare and an exchange fee and membership fee with an exchange company and a resort fee.  If I have to be  paying a resort fee for things which your MF;s cover when an owner stays, then your really aren't depositing a week, you are depositing a stripped down week and when I go to my resort then I should suggest that they deposit stripped down deposits and ask for additional money for something I already paid for.  

I think the main thing is Vidanta has too much inventory and is looking for a way to monotonize it and create selling opportunities rather than a normal exchange.  And if I am completely made aware of that and still want to pay I guess that is ok but it really does take away from the idea that an timeshare exchange is giving up my unit and exchanging into someone else's.


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## Eric B (May 8, 2018)

I kind of agree with you on the issue of points/TPU as a measure of value, but that really only holds true if it’s exchanges between owners.  With the bulk depositing by developers and side deals they can cut, the field is a bit skewed.  For example, Massanutten just gave me a couple of 20 TPU deposits good through December for paying my MFs for 19 early.  One of them was for a week that gets me 10 TPUs.


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## cd5 (May 8, 2018)

I'm going alone on my next trip - an Interval exchange so I'm only paying the grandfathered rate of $11 a day. But even if it was $30, I feel the quality of the stay is worth the extra $210 I'd be paying over and above my points and the exchange fee. I know, no one wants to admit to being "ok" to paying more, but I am in this case (Grand Luxxe, 1 bedroom).


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## Eric B (May 8, 2018)

cd5 said:


> I'm going alone on my next trip - an Interval exchange so I'm only paying the grandfathered rate of $11 a day. But even if it was $30, I feel the quality of the stay is worth the extra $210 I'd be paying over and above my points and the exchange fee. I know, no one wants to admit to being "ok" to paying more, but I am in this case (Grand Luxxe, 1 bedroom).



That’s what a transparent market is all about!


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## RLS50 (May 8, 2018)

cd5 said:


> I'm going alone on my next trip - an Interval exchange so I'm only paying the grandfathered rate of $11 a day. But even if it was $30, I feel the quality of the stay is worth the extra $210 I'd be paying over and above my points and the exchange fee. I know, no one wants to admit to being "ok" to paying more, but I am in this case (Grand Luxxe, 1 bedroom).


Chantal,

I would be okay with $30 per day per unit, but the fee is per person.  It might be $210 if you are going alone, but if you take a significant other or additional family the fee can be much higher than $210.   To charge this $30 fee per person, and still restrict access to certain pools and restaurants, seems wildly excessive in my view.   It isn't about whether we can afford it, for me it's the principle.

I am used to JW Marriott daily fees running $18-$26 per day depending on which one we are staying at, so I am not anti-daily resort fee, especially if the property does provide better than average amenities.   But those charges are per room.  

You can go to the Westin Lagunamar and not pay any daily fee at all.   And while I only speak for us, in my opinion WLR collectively (location, layout, functionality, beach, etc) is a better property than Vidanta RM.   But I realize not everyone will share that view.


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## mikenk (May 8, 2018)

tschwa2 said:


> I think if they are doing what the 2 of you say they are doing about parity of exchanges then the fee should be a lot lower for the lower Vidanta levels.  While the fee can make sense when exchanging into a larger Luxxe unit it really does not for Mayan Palace.
> 
> On the other hand the points required or exchange power is what is supposed to create parity with exchanges not extra fees.  If Vidanta is that great then it should take me 2-3 years worth of my timeshare to stay there not my 1/3 of the points that I get for a single year at my timeshare and an exchange fee and membership fee with an exchange company and a resort fee.  If I have to be  paying a resort fee for things which your MF;s cover when an owner stays, then your really aren't depositing a week, you are depositing a stripped down week and when I go to my resort then I should suggest that they deposit stripped down deposits and ask for additional money for something I already paid for.
> 
> I think the main thing is Vidanta has too much inventory and is looking for a way to monotonize it and create selling opportunities rather than a normal exchange.  And if I am completely made aware of that and still want to pay I guess that is ok but it really does take away from the idea that an timeshare exchange is giving up my unit and exchanging into someone else's.



I agree totally with your first point - the resort fee should not be the same for a GL vs Grand Mayan. I wasn't aware the $30ppd was the same at all resort levels.

I also agree that the basic idea of timeshares is that one exchanges their unit for another's; the assumption is they would be relatively equal in value. The problem is Vidanta has changed the rules by routinely releasing inventory it owns to keep the resorts full. It is a different business model; they sell as fast as they can and build a little faster to keep available inventory. They then fill that available inventory with owners, with people from the exchange companies, or direct hotel type rentals. I would never even think of exchanging as I can't get even exchange - particularly not with my amenities.

In the Vidanta model, some sort of fair resort fee seems to be a logical solution.

Mike


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## Eric B (May 8, 2018)

Actually, what they do for the fees is more aligned with the full resort (e.g., it’s $30 pppd for NV & RM, but $20 pppd at MP PV; no fee at SG NV, which isn’t completely on the resort grounds).  I agree that I would have set it up differently if I were setting them, but the rationale they provide is set up that way, covering a welcome drink, ride from the airport, Santuario cover charge, etc.  I’m not sure it makes complete sense, but that’s how it is now.


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## mikenk (May 8, 2018)

RLS50 said:


> Chantal,
> 
> I would be okay with $30 per day per unit, but the fee is per person.  It might be $210 if you are going alone, but if you take a significant other or additional family the fee can be much higher than $210.   To charge this $30 fee per person, and still restrict access to certain pools and restaurants, seems wildly excessive in my view.   It isn't about whether we can afford it, for me it's the principle.



For a 2 bedroom Grand Luxxe suite with four people. The owner would be paying about 2K for a week; the exchanger would be paying about $1100 or so for their MF and exchange, and about $800 in resort fees. Seems about right to me.

Now the free market will come into play; an exchanger will have to decide to accept a lesser resort at a lower rate or maybe find a better resort at the same or less money than Vidanta; from there Vidanta would need to adjust accordingly. I have no clue whether time will make the $30 go up or down but the market should drive that.

Mike


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## hurnik (May 8, 2018)

I have no problem with a timeshare company exchanging/promo a stay that's cheaper than my MF/costs are:
provided that it doesn't affect my level of service

Yes, would it be nice if I could stay at my HGVC for $199 for a promo?  Sure.
(since I bought resale I no longer get these "owner update" offers).
On the other hand, do I want to sit through another 90 minute presentation?  Nope.

Now, if I bought at Vidanta (GL is what I'd looked at a few years ago on the punishing 4.5 hour "90-minute" presentation), it cost a lot more than it was for me to exchange via SFX into it.  Although to be fair, the same can be said for some Marriott (Maui Ocean Club, for example) where it's far cheaper to exchange than buy and pay out the $2500/year MF when an exchange can run you around $800 or so.

Am I OK with owners getting certain "extras"?  Sure.

What I'm not quite OK with is Vidanta penalizing exchangers without disclosure under the guise that the pool/etc. are overcrowded, etc.  (Then it's Vidanta's fault for building more buildings than their amenities can support *and* then releasing that inventory).

In the end, Vidanta has to find some balance to not piss off their owners and keep exchangers coming (fresh sales victims).  I do remember when we were in Nuevo Vallarta and a LOT of owners complaining that they could never get an "ocean view" (I use that term loosely because the way the buildings are oriented there is really no such thing for the GL buildings - they face the river or the resort, unless you get a corner unit on like 2 of the buildings).

$30/pp/day for all resort levels is insane, especially for anything not GL (IMO).  Granted, my exchanges are limited through RCI and SFX which has the exact same cost/fee/points for Mayan Palace, Grand Mayan and Grand Bliss.  I do not have access to GL via Hilton's RCI account, only SFX.

The good news is that there are plenty of other nice places to stay at and now that Vidanta is charging so much extra and removing access to a bunch of things, I'm going elsewhere (their price point is about that of an AI now), at least for Riviera Maya locations.


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## hurnik (May 8, 2018)

mikenk said:


> For a 2 bedroom Grand Luxxe suite with four people. The owner would be paying about 2K for a week; the exchanger would be paying about $1100 or so for their MF and exchange, and about $800 in resort fees. Seems about right to me.
> 
> Now the free market will come into play; an exchanger will have to decide to accept a lesser resort at a lower rate or maybe find a better resort at the same or less money than Vidanta; from there Vidanta would need to adjust accordingly. I have no clue whether time will make the $30 go up or down but the market should drive that.
> 
> Mike



Although at least for RM, the exchanger would not have access to GL Pool, Burger restaurant or the Beach Club.  I think the combination of the two is a hard pill to swallow for most.

But then again I don't really see a lot of the Marriott owners complaining that people exchange into the MOC and other places for "less" than what they pay for MF.  Although I don't frequent the Marriott forums every day.


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## taterhed (May 8, 2018)

Two words:  Supply  Demand.

Time will tell.

Charging a usage fee....is completely within the purview of the wise and benevolent management at Vidanta.

Treating owners and exchanges utilizing exchange weeks poorly and/or blackmailing resort usage for presentations......
Well, as I said, time will tell.


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## Eric B (May 8, 2018)

hurnik said:


> I have no problem with a timeshare company exchanging/promo a stay that's cheaper than my MF/costs are:
> provided that it doesn't affect my level of service
> 
> ....  I do not have access to GL via Hilton's RCI account, only SFX.



You might check the availability of GL in RCI again; they did a bulk deposit of GL NV units recently that you don’t have to be platinum to get; RB71.  No idea if Hilton has any screen, of course.

Also, the fee through SFX is still at $75, though that could always change.


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## mikenk (May 8, 2018)

hurnik said:


> Although at least for RM, the exchanger would not have access to GL Pool, Burger restaurant or the Beach Club.  I think the combination of the two is a hard pill to swallow for most.



As an owner, I agree totally with your statement. Once the resort fee is in place, the exchangers should get the same access as owners to all the facilities - that's only fair. I actually didn't realize, they didn't at RM.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (May 8, 2018)

mikenk said:


> As an owner, I agree totally with your statement. Once the resort fee is in place, the exchangers should get the same access as owners to all the facilities - that's only fair. I actually didn't realize, they didn't at RM.



The RM Beach Club access “ issue “may have been precipitated by the opening of multiple GL Jungle buildings . (IMO)

IMO - rather than have Jungle Luxe be a stepchild with no Beach Club access (due to the added number of units ); someone decided to make the Beach Club for owner only . Further complicating it, is owners who exchange in ( see Pittle recent posts while at RM for a 50th anniversary vacation ) and (apparently/ possibly) GL owners who choose to stay at GB etc via their MF usage.

Vidanta RM  (per recent reports) is only letting Grand Luxxe owners ,staying in Grand Luxxe units and using their Grand Luxxe Vidanta weeks - to use the Beach Club facilities .

Of course as a Vidanta Mayan Palace brand owner - we never had access  ; since pool access is brand specific .


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## rpennisi (May 8, 2018)

Sounds a lot to me like buyers remorse.  GL owners have paid the big bucks for their contracts.  They *deserve* the best views, units, times of usage.  Vidanta has made, through large charges, resales almost nonexistent.  By having these large pp/pd fees in effect, Vidanta makes a fortune.  Does that help the GL owners, who can't get their preferred exchanges, anything that is helpful to them and their usage?  Not that I can see.


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## dioxide45 (May 8, 2018)

Eric B said:


> Also, the fee through SFX is still at $75, though that could always change.


However, as I understand, SFX has a surcharge of $299 to exchange in to GL.


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## Eric B (May 8, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> However, as I understand, SFX has a surcharge of $299 to exchange in to GL.



That's correct.


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## ilene13 (May 8, 2018)

mikenk said:


> For a 2 bedroom Grand Luxxe suite with four people. The owner would be paying about 2K for a week; the exchanger would be paying about $1100 or so for their MF and exchange, and about $800 in resort fees. Seems about right to me.
> 
> Now the free market will come into play; an exchanger will have to decide to accept a lesser resort at a lower rate or maybe find a better resort at the same or less money than Vidanta; from there Vidanta would need to adjust accordingly. I have no clue whether time will make the $30 go up or down but the market should drive that.
> 
> Mike


If I exchange one of my Marriott timeshares- Aruba or Hilton Head to the Grand Luxxe, I can guarantee you that I paid a lot for the unit, my maintenance fees are comparable to the GL plus I’m paying an exchange fee.  Marriott does not charge exchangers a daily per person resort fee, nor do they have facilities that exchangers cannot use.  We will no longer exchange to the GL, in fact I canceled one for next year!


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## Eric B (May 8, 2018)

rpennisi said:


> Sounds a lot to me like buyers remorse.  GL owners have paid the big bucks for their contracts.  They *deserve* the best views, units, times of usage.  Vidanta has made, through large charges, resales almost nonexistent.  By having these large pp/pd fees in effect, Vidanta makes a fortune.  Does that help the GL owners, who can't get their preferred exchanges, anything that is helpful to them and their usage?  Not that I can see.



Not sure what you're getting at.  I purchased and upgraded with Grand Luxxe because I can afford it and love the resort.  In my opinion, the value I receive from using my access and some associated perks is good.  I do monitor alternative methods of exchanging back into the resorts using a couple other timeshares we own in order to be able to judge whether it is more efficient to do that for a particular visit, taking into account my access to the different tiers of units through my ownership and through exchanging depending on the time of year.  I think that life is too short for buyers' remorse.


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## Eric B (May 8, 2018)

mikenk said:


> For a 2 bedroom Grand Luxxe suite with four people. The owner would be paying about 2K for a week; the exchanger would be paying about $1100 or so for their MF and exchange, and about $800 in resort fees. Seems about right to me.
> 
> Now the free market will come into play; an exchanger will have to decide to accept a lesser resort at a lower rate or maybe find a better resort at the same or less money than Vidanta; from there Vidanta would need to adjust accordingly. I have no clue whether time will make the $30 go up or down but the market should drive that.
> 
> Mike





ilene13 said:


> If I exchange one of my Marriott timeshares- Aruba or Hilton Head to the Grand Luxxe, I can guarantee you that I paid a lot for the unit, my maintenance fees are comparable to the GL plus I’m paying an exchange fee.  Marriott does not charge exchangers a daily per person resort fee, nor do they have facilities that exchangers cannot use.  We will no longer exchange to the GL, in fact I canceled one for next year!



Everyone's experiences will vary, of course, based on what timeshares they own and exchange with.  From my experiences and ownership, I can get into a GL Suite on an exchange for less that $1,100 and I would take $200 off the resort fee based on the credit towards room charges, so I look at Mike's estimate as being a bit high for me.  That being said, it's a reasonable estimate.

I completely understand Ilene's point; Marriott can cost a lot, so the additional fees come across as unfair.  That being said, Vidanta isn't getting the benefit of whatever one pays to their home resort, so I'm not sure it's totally relevant except to the extent that they segment their potential markets for sales customers.  They seem to charge lower fees or no fees for exchanges from Registry, which is predominantly higher end and more expensive timeshares (or current Vidanta owners), which is a rational choice if they're trying to get those customers in the door.  While Marriott exchanges in through II, there are other less expensive resorts that do as well, so having a resort fee recoups some of their expenses and contributes to profits while helping to screen out folks that won't be likely to pay more to go there.  As others have mentioned, time will tell whether it's a wise choice.  T-Dot has posted in a different thread, however, that last year they had record sales, so I wouldn't expect much in the way of radical changes on the exchange side.  There might be some changes coming on the owners side, but the only things I've seen are the changes in treatment in Registry and the restrictions on the GL Pool, Burger restaurant and Beach Club in RM.  We'll see if there's anything else coming down the pike.


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## mikenk (May 8, 2018)

rpennisi said:


> Sounds a lot to me like buyers remorse.  GL owners have paid the big bucks for their contracts.  They *deserve* the best views, units, times of usage.  Vidanta has made, through large charges, resales almost nonexistent.  By having these large pp/pd fees in effect, Vidanta makes a fortune.  Does that help the GL owners, who can't get their preferred exchanges, anything that is helpful to them and their usage?  Not that I can see.



Ron, like Eric, I missed your point about buyers remorse; can you restate?

Mike


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## T-Dot-Traveller (May 8, 2018)

ilene13 said:


> If I exchange one of my Marriott timeshares- Aruba or Hilton Head to the Grand Luxxe, I can guarantee you that I paid a lot for the unit, my maintenance fees are comparable to the GL plus I’m paying an exchange fee.  Marriott does not charge exchangers a daily per person resort fee, nor do they have facilities that exchangers cannot use. ......r!



At this time - Marriott does not charge exchangers a resort fee .

How many airlines aren't charging baggage fees these days ?

Time will tell .

*******
IMO - Vidanta - Grupo Mayan has always had value price driven exchanger costs - in order to keep the  flow of prospects for their sales side .It has been widely assumed that the dollars coming from sales are used to build . The NV Cirque Theme Park is the current building project .
Value price exchanger cost:  is one reason they have had the 1 in 3  (up to 1 in 5 ) etc rules in the past . The current format allows unlimited visits as an exchanger .

As an owner : if I pay my MF & use a week - Vidanta  gets $ USD "cash " that likely flows to their hotel side .  If I exchange in to get a bigger - better unit - who gets the TPU "cash " ?
By instituting the resort fee , with the 25 % credit against on site  restaurant etc charges ; I assume that my resort fee payment goes to their hotel side as well .

(As Eric has said elsewhere) - (IMO) part of the change was likely, to balance the sales and hotel sides needs.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (May 8, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> However, as I understand, SFX has a surcharge of $299 to exchange in to GL.



Vidata & SFX have a long term " unique " relationship .

Perhaps the $299 goes to Vidanta ? So it could be a prepaid resort fee ?


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## bizaro86 (May 9, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Vidata & SFX have a long term " unique " relationship .
> 
> Perhaps the $299 goes to Vidanta ? So it could be a prepaid resort fee ?



I think that's very likely. Vidanta doesn't want to trade SFX for a timeshare stay somewhere else (what would they do with it?!?) but they do like money. By charging an upcharge, SFX can pay Vidanta for the inventory in cash.


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## TheHappyWanderer (May 9, 2018)

Does anyone know if Riviera Maya Grand Luxxe exchangers will be able to use the new lazy river when it opens?


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## Eric B (May 9, 2018)

We probably won’t know for sure until it opens.  The speculation I heard from the sales staff on my last trip was that it would be open to exchangers as well as owners at the Jungle Luxxe (DeLuxxe) level and up.  Also that it will open ~September.


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## Eric B (May 9, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> Vidata & SFX have a long term " unique " relationship .
> 
> Perhaps the $299 goes to Vidanta ? So it could be a prepaid resort fee ?



Vidanta has a long term contractual relationship with SFX to manage the privilege weeks for owners, so I don’t see that changing anytime soon.  With those, an owner pays SFX an amount a bit higher than a usage fee in order to reserve a holiday week.  I expect that part of that fee flows back to Vidanta.

Similarly, ICE has a relationship with Vidanta to operate the Vida Lifestyle travel shop (corresponding to RCI cruises, etc., also run by ICE).  Owners get a certain number of Lifestyle weeks they can use to come back in the off season for the cost of a usage fee, which is also no doubt allocated by the contract.

Interestingly, ICE also operates the SFX travel store, through which you can reserve some of the Vidanta resorts without exchanging, up to the Jungle Luxxe in RM and the Grand Luxxe suite or studio loft level in NV. The cost is much higher, but reduced to around the same by using SFX savings dollars.

I’ve seen posts mentioning use of ICE rewards to get to Vidanta, but no details on what program that’s associated with.

The other special relationships I’m aware of are with Registry Collection and Elite Alliance for exchanging.  Haven’t tried Elite Alliance at this point, but I’ve used Registry and posted about how that works in a different thread.


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## RLS50 (May 9, 2018)

Eric B said:


> so having a resort fee recoups some of their expenses and contributes to profits while helping to screen out folks that won't be likely to pay more to go there


So this move by Vidanta is going to screen out people who can't afford their property?    I respectfully disagree with that logic, although my comments aren't directed at you specifically since this idea has been mentioned by others previously.   So I am speaking to the idea, not you or anyone individually.

Sure, maybe the new (much) higher fees could screen out someone with an income not capable of buying Vidanta.  But it also turns off Marriott and Westin type owners who certainly have the money to purchase with Vidanta, but won't even go there to take a "test drive" of the property because the fees (along with the additional restrictions) seem eggregious.    For some of us it's principle, not the actual money per se.

Our original Accomodation Certificate purchase of $289 was going to put us into a 1BR Grand Luxxe Jungle and give us the opportunity to check out changes to the property after many years.   It was also going to put us in the middle of a construction zone (many negative social media reviews about this experience), with a lazy river that isn't completed, a long way from the pools and a beach (full of rocks/coral obstacles entering the water), in a property with many directional signs missing (also mentioned negatively by many guests on social media reviews) and sometimes spotty / unreliable onsite transportation.   And as nice as and spacious as these 1BR units seem to be from the photos, it is my understanding they don't have a full size refrigerator or a washer / dryer inside the unit?   If that is the case in those 1BR units, to me that is just a fancy hotel room / studio that is still missing the critical functionality / practicality of a true 1BR.

And then on top of those already not ideal circumstances with the Grand Luxxe Jungle units, I was being asked to pay them an extra $420 for 2 people to use only some of the pools and be barred from certain restaurants?    And if I wanted to avoid part of those additional costs and restrictions I needed to negotiate during a sales presentation that might take 4+ hours of my time?   1/2 to 3/4 of a day?

Why bother with all that when I can (and did) buy a Getaway to WLR in a true 1BR (in every sense of the word) for $867?

So in the case of people like myself, and speaking for the 1BR Grand Luxxe Jungle suites specifically, I don't feel like Vidanta was doing us a favor allowing us to visit their property for $289.   Yes I was getting in cheaper, but I was also sacrificing some creature comforts to do so while they were trying to complete construction on that phase, I was still going to spend my money at their restaurants and maybe at their shows, and I wasn't getting a super deluxe 2BR or 3BR unit.

I get the fact that Vidanta is trying to correct problems they created for themselves and their owners.  But their "fix" seems to be not very well planned and thought out either.   This current solution seems penny wise and pound foolish.

But as others have correctly stated Supply and Demand will ultimately determine the outcome.   My position could represent the minority.


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## mikenk (May 9, 2018)

RLS50 said:


> So this move by Vidanta is going to screen out people who can't afford their property?    I respectfully disagree with that logic, although my comments aren't directed at you specifically since this idea has been mentioned by others previously.   So I am speaking to the idea, not you or anyone individually.
> 
> Sure, maybe the new (much) higher fees could screen out someone with an income not capable of buying Vidanta.  But it also turns off Marriott and Westin type owners who certainly have the money to purchase with Vidanta, but won't even go there to take a "test drive" of the property because the fees (along with the additional restrictions) seem eggregious.    For some of us it's principle, not the actual money per se.
> 
> ...



You make good points - particularly around the situation with the Jungle Luxxe. I am not familiar with that but it appears to have been and still being handled very poorly.

I also appreciate the issue with other owners of high end resorts being treated unfairly with this surcharge. Actually the original promise to us owners when we bought in early is that GL would only trade with high end resorts and as owners we would have some exclusivity to that trading power - didn't happen as Vidanta routinely deposits inventory everywhere. That changes the equation and drops the trading power of the GL. They brought this on themselves and now are trying to fix partly with this surcharge - which will backfire to some degree.

One thing I have observed about Vidanta management. They are willing to take chances with their choices - but also willing to change quickly. Time will tell.

Mike


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## Eric B (May 9, 2018)

RLS50 said:


> So this move by Vidanta is going to screen out people who can't afford their property?    I respectfully disagree with that logic, although my comments aren't directed at you specifically since this idea has been mentioned by others previously.   So I am speaking to the idea, not you or anyone individually.
> 
> Sure, maybe the new (much) higher fees could screen out someone with an income not capable of buying Vidanta.  But it also turns off Marriott and Westin type owners who certainly have the money to purchase with Vidanta, but won't even go there to take a "test drive" of the property because the fees (along with the additional restrictions) seem eggregious.    For some of us it's principle, not the actual money per se.
> 
> ...



No offense taken at all; the idea was just my speculation on why they might be doing what they’re doing.  The potential reaction by Marriott or Westin owners is a possible unintended consequence that they may or may not have considered, but will have to live with in either case.

You’re interpretation of the lack of a washer/dryer and full size refrigerator is correct; the Jungle Luxxe units have two under counter refrigerators next to each other.  I stayed in one in January (Jungle Luxxe unit, not refrigerator that is).


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## pittle (May 9, 2018)

Wow miss a day on TUG while doing a volunteer day and miss a great conversation! Some great points have been made.  

I am also an owner of 2 GL units and the MF are right at $1800 per week. We also have PBEB that the MF are about 1/3 of that and used it to exchange into our 2 weeks at Grand Bliss through SFX, so we knew we were getting a great deal - basically 2 weeks for the price of 1 including the exchange fee and $75 per week fee.   I made this reservation in February 2017 for April 20-May 4, 2018.  At that time, all GB guests and owners had access to the Beach Club and all the restaurants at the resort.  When we arrived, we were immediately told when checking in that they had recently changed the policy and we could not use the Beach Club or go to Burger Custom Made because we had exchanged in.

If you made the reservations through II or RCI and it stated the $75 fee or the $11 pp/pd day when you made your reservation, they honored that - not the new $30 pp/pd fee, so why not the amenities that you were expecting?  If you know going in what you are expected to pay or facilities that you can use, that is your choice to make the reservation.  They should not change mid-stream.

We declined to take the tour - all they offered us was 10% of what we spent onsite and a member band.  We said no thank you and chose not to spend any money there.  We did go to Member Services and got our GL photo id badges, but did not get new wristbands.  We were told that they were 100% full and if it was 80% or so the next week, they would consider it.  Well, I took photos on our last day and there were fewer people there than there were 3 weeks after Hurricane Wilma when we were there in 2005. This was long before GB, and GL were even dreamed of and the GM was not even open those weeks because of storm damage.  All guests were assigned to the 11-20 MP buildings because they suffered less damage. 

I did notice that our reservation mas marked Promotional Week when we got the final reservation reminder 2 weeks before we were to arrive, so that must be a developer week.  BUT, if by chance it really is an EXCHANGE week where the owner paid the MF, then Mayan World is really taking advantage of exchangers.  However, I cannot imagine paying the $1800 and exchanging it when we all have the no pay unless you go feature.  You could use your $1800 for an extra vacation or VRBO.


Welcome back Mike - I've been wondering where you were - I thought about sending you a PM to make sure you and B were OK.


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## Eric B (May 9, 2018)

mikenk said:


> You make good points - particularly around the situation with the Jungle Luxxe. I am not familiar with that but it appears to have been and still being handled very poorly.
> 
> I also appreciate the issue with other owners of high end resorts being treated unfairly with this surcharge. Actually the original promise to us owners when we bought in early is that GL would only trade with high end resorts and as owners we would have some exclusivity to that trading power - didn't happen as Vidanta routinely deposits inventory everywhere. That changes the equation and drops the trading power of the GL. They brought this on themselves and now are trying to fix partly with this surcharge - which will backfire to some degree.
> 
> ...



As far as the trading with only high end resorts and trading power goes, the changes in Registry address that to a certain extent.  Things seem to be creeping to a higher cutoff with the introduction of the Estates as a level above Grand Luxxe and Deluxxe as a level between it and Grand Bliss.


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## hurnik (May 9, 2018)

Eric B said:


> You might check the availability of GL in RCI again; they did a bulk deposit of GL NV units recently that you don’t have to be platinum to get; RB71.  No idea if Hilton has any screen, of course.
> 
> Also, the fee through SFX is still at $75, though that could always change.



I only have access to RCI via HGVC, so there's no TPU's or RCI Platinum, etc.
HGVC RCI does not have access to Grand Luxxe.  They only recently added Grand Bliss a few years ago.
It's not even listed in the Resort Directory listing for Hilton.

But that's an HGVC/RCI issue, not necessarily RCI directly, just that if I were to book GL, my only options via exchanging would be via SFX directly, or using HGVC's affiliation with SFX (you have to call Hilton to do this), but it's like 14,400 points or something obscene like that to get a GL (at my MF costs, that would put it at $2692 plus HGVC fees to book).  Cheaper to deposit a 2400 or 3400 point week unit with SFX and pay the $300 upgrade ($299 if one is being technical) plus the $149 exchange fee (I'm diamond lifetime with SFX).

I do wish I had II access, but that's another story.  LOL!


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## rpennisi (May 9, 2018)

mikenk said:


> Ron, like Eric, I missed your point about buyers remorse; can you restate?
> 
> Mike


I didn't mean to insult you or Eric with my comment of buyers remorse.  But both of you wrote about being happy that exchangers would be charged higher resort fees for GL and GB.  I think owners of GL, etc should get the best units, times of usage and views.  But these fees do nothing to help owners, they only line the pockets of Vidanta whether it be the sales side or hotel side.  Empty suites will not bring in any money to Vidanta with many saying they will not exchange because to the increased fees, especially exorbitant for families staying for a week or more.  Perhaps a better phrase would have been, exchangers envy.  I have exchangers remorse now that these $30 pp/pd fees are in effect.
Ron


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## Eric B (May 9, 2018)

My view on it is more that I believe if the relative income between the sales and hotel sides of the House were better balanced with the services they provide to the customers, the overall performance of the organization would improve.  I actually like hearing how other folks have learned how to work with the systems as they are operated because it opens other options I can consider using.  That being said, we should recognize that the motivation for making the inexpensive exchanges available is gain potential sales customers.  In the long run, that may not be a sustainable business model if people decline sales presentations, of course, or decline to purchase.  I do like the resorts and want them to continue providing enjoyable vacations for the long term, so I support the idea of the resort fees, particularly with a 25% credit towards room charges for dining, etc., and the option to have them halved for doing a sales presentation.  They’ve intelligently incentivized the behaviors they want (spending there and potentially buying/upgrading) in a way that seems to better match their costs of performance on the hotel side with the costs to the customer.

The end result is a spectrum of costs I can choose from for a week there in a great resort.  Some folks will get a better deal while others won’t.  The only way what someone else pays effects my experience and enjoyment is if it’s priced too low overall and gets more crowded than the facilities can serve.  I don’t think that’s an issue at this point.

The one thing that is important to me, however, is transparency.  I don’t think it’s fair to spring facility limitations on an exchange when someone checks in, or to change the fees after an exchange is made.  You could call me a capitalist, but I think the market should be allowed to work.

One other thought for how the changes have effected me; the higher resort fees were added about the same time as they started depositing GL in RCI.  As a result, I can exchange there more easily with other TSs I couldn’t use to get into GL because they are in RCI points.  Overall the changes have been beneficial to me; it would cost more for me to go to the GB and lower Vidanta tiers at this point on an exchange, but I recognize what options I’ve got.


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## mikenk (May 9, 2018)

rpennisi said:


> I didn't mean to insult you or Eric with my comment of buyers remorse.  But both of you wrote about being happy that exchangers would be charged higher resort fees for GL and GB.  I think owners of GL, etc should get the best units, times of usage and views.  But these fees do nothing to help owners, they only line the pockets of Vidanta whether it be the sales side or hotel side.  Empty suites will not bring in any money to Vidanta with many saying they will not exchange because to the increased fees, especially exorbitant for families staying for a week or more.  Perhaps a better phrase would have been, exchangers envy.  I have exchangers remorse now that these $30 pp/pd fees are in effect.
> Ron



Ok, I understand your point; the term buyers remorse threw me as that was the furthest from my mind. Here are the things that bother me when Vidanta routinely dumps units into the marketplace to be redeemed at low exchanges rates:
 - It simply isn't fair to owners as it cheapens ownership to those that Vidanta should value the most. From personal experience, owners do NOT always get better room assignments than exchangers. Reservations isn't that organized to even make that happen. I will admit my blood pressure rises whenever I see an exchanger with a better room and for less money. 
 - It cheapens the Vidanta brand which means lower trading power and lower ownership value for renting and/or selling - which does impact me as an owner. 

You also said that added fees do not help owners but just lines the pockets of Vidanta ownership. Recognize that the Vidanta business model is to continually improve and expand the resort; that is done with the incoming cash flow. That does affect owners as less cash means less expansion.

While I do not think the surcharge is the best solution as it is not fair to those folks with similar priced units wanting to trade in. I believe there are people at Vidanta who with a little innovative thinking could:
- Make sure owners don't pay more with equal or less amenities than exchangers. 
- Make sure exchangers and hotel guests are getting good value against competition.
- Create a way that high end resorts can reciprocate fairly - I don't even consider trying to trade my membership with all my amenities. 
- Keep high occupancy through out the year in the resorts.

Mike


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## bizaro86 (May 9, 2018)

mikenk said:


> Ok, I understand your point; the term buyers remorse threw me as that was the furthest from my mind. Here are the things that bother me when Vidanta routinely dumps units into the marketplace to be redeemed at low exchanges rates:
> - It simply isn't fair to owners as it cheapens ownership to those that Vidanta should value the most. From personal experience, owners do NOT always get better room assignments than exchangers. Reservations isn't that organized to even make that happen. I will admit my blood pressure rises whenever I see an exchanger with a better room and for less money.
> - It cheapens the Vidanta brand which means lower trading power and lower ownership value for renting and/or selling - which does impact me as an owner.
> 
> ...



The logical thing for Vidanta to do would be rent out their excess inventory for cash. If there was no more exchange availability from Vidanta, the new scarcity would improve trading power, effectively making it more expensive for others to trade in. I have traded a 1 bedroom unit for a 4 bedroom Grande Luxxe through II multiple times. That isn't anywhere close to a fair trade, and its only available because Vidanta floods the market with developer inventory. 

That would also allow them to eliminate most of the extra fees for exchangers - if they had received a usage fee from a member for each exchange, they would be covered for hotel side revenue. That would also probably bring them higher end guests, as if they limited supply they would naturally get people who already own higher end timeshares. 

I'm not sure how much they'd be able to charge for cash rentals during the offseason, but if they charged enough that would make it easier to sell those people on buying. "You're paying $225/night for a 1 bedroom right now, but for only a $140/night usage fee, you can get a 2 bedroom!" Or whatever.


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## mikenk (May 9, 2018)

Interesting idea. If they stopped releasing inventory to the exchange companies but instead rented "hotel style" for cash, they could logically get as much cash flow, and allow exchanges to be true exchanges at equal value. It would also logically bring the right type of people for the sales sharks to attack.

Mike


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## dioxide45 (May 9, 2018)

bizaro86 said:


> The logical thing for Vidanta to do would be rent out their excess inventory for cash.


They wouldn't be able to fill units. Empty units means tour flow is low and volume through onside food and beverage sales is also low. If they could rent these out for cash at higher prices, don't you think they would? The problem is that they build for peak season and dump low season inventory in to exchange. They really have no other way to fill units in the off season. We will have to wait and see if the increased resort fee actually impacts occupancy.


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## Eric B (May 9, 2018)

The bigger impact that there hoping for is the Cirque Park.  Time will tell for that, too...,


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## bizaro86 (May 9, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> They wouldn't be able to fill units. Empty units means tour flow is low and volume through onside food and beverage sales is also low. If they could rent these out for cash at higher prices, don't you think they would? The problem is that they build for peak season and dump low season inventory in to exchange. They really have no other way to fill units in the off season. We will have to wait and see if the increased resort fee actually impacts occupancy.



They could rent them, but maybe not at a price that would be conducive to sales. I suppose from their perspective putting them in the exchsnge companies is renting them for a low price with the price being opaque to the end user.


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## Quadmaniac (May 9, 2018)

mikenk said:


> Over the years, exchangers have correctly observed that ownership at Vidanta actually makes no sense as it is easy to trade in cheaply; Vidanta leadership has assured that by consistently releasing inventory to exchange companies to maintain occupancy. Many of us owners do have amenities like free golf that does help a bit - but the bottom line is we owners are spending upwards of $1900 to 2000 a week where many exchangers are using a $800 or so MF coupled with $200 or so exchange fee for the same week. That has never seemed fair to me at all; I have made it very clear at every update meeting I attend that I will never spend another penny until they fix that inequality.



This is not unique to Vidanta by any stretch. Routinely people trade inexpensive units into higher end resorts. Prime example is trading into Hawaii, most times people are using studios or 1 br that will cost them 800-900 trade fees into a resort that has MF of 2100-2500. I had just returned from Westin Nanea which has MF of $2800(?) via an exchange that end up costing about $900-1000. This is all due the inequity the exchange companies put into their algorithms which has been a benefit to exchangers. Not sure that it is Vidanta problem they can do anything about other than what they are doing by charging a surcharge.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (May 9, 2018)

Eric B said:


> The bigger impact that there hoping for is the Cirque Park.  Time will tell for that, too...,



Agree -


1) The "build for peak snowbird season" seems to works for Vidanta & other Mexican resorts because building costs are in pesos and MF income is in  USD $ .

2)The Cirque Park should increase summer usage & ownership  by the Mexican National  demographic . This should help balance occupancy levels at NV .

3) My guess is that most  Timeshares "pay" RCI & II for their listing services via developer deposits . The developer  likely gets some income when an exchange is booked .
This is speculation on my part . If anyone has knowledge from serving on an independent HOA please fill in some details.

4) IMO - Vidanta  puts the same "week" in more than one exchange system . They then manage inventory the way airline & hotels that list on multiple platforms operate .
Vidanta also has to make sure enough inventory is there for owner ARP dates . ( one year & six months prior to  Feb / peak snowbird month )


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## rpennisi (May 9, 2018)

dioxide45 said:


> They wouldn't be able to fill units. Empty units means tour flow is low and volume through onside food and beverage sales is also low. If they could rent these out for cash at higher prices, don't you think they would? The problem is that they build for peak season and dump low season inventory in to exchange. They really have no other way to fill units in the off season. We will have to wait and see if the increased resort fee actually impacts occupancy.



I have to agree with you.  We have exchanged into GL units in Augusts for NV and RM for the experience of staying in those units.  But the hot muggy weather and the attack of mosquitos has cured me of trading in the hot wet months. However, next Jan and Feb we will stay in GL NV and RM GB, according to my paper work for the lower $11 pp/pd.  But that might be the end for me and it seems many others as traders.


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## hurnik (May 10, 2018)

mikenk said:


> Interesting idea. If they stopped releasing inventory to the exchange companies but instead rented "hotel style" for cash, they could logically get as much cash flow, and allow exchanges to be true exchanges at equal value. It would also logically bring the right type of people for the sales sharks to attack.
> 
> Mike



I'm fairly certain they do this now.  There's a thread somewhere about how GL is now "hotel" because you could get it on Expedia.  I vaguely recall last year you could also book directly with Vidanta (like a "hotel") but the pricing, IMO was astronomical.

Ultimately it seems the issue for Vidanta is that they have overbuilt the units, but not the amenities.  In other words, if GL can hold (let's say) 200 guests, regardless of whether they are owners or exchangers, but the pool area can only hold 50 people, Vidanta's answer to that problem is to only penalize exchangers.

What would happen if all owners went there instead?  Would they they tell some owners "sorry, you can't go here"?


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## Eric B (May 10, 2018)

I do recall that thread, but a lot of the posts in it were deleted by the OP after some negotiations with Vidanta.  There are a fair number of rental listings for GL on VRBO and other websites, but I believe they are predominantly owners trying to rent weeks they aren’t planning to use.  No idea how successful they are, but I’d guess that the bulk deposits by Vidanta and cheaper availability through exchanges put a real damper on demand.

I have seen GL suites in both RM and NV listed on SaveOnResorts and through ICE that don’t ask for an exchange.  The costs are similar to usage fee costs.  I interpret this as the hotel side of things actually doing in a minor way what Mike suggests, but just through vacation club avenues rather than to the general public.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (May 10, 2018)

hurnik said:


> Ultimately it seems the issue for Vidanta is that they have overbuilt the units, but not the amenities.  In other words, if GL can hold (let's say) 200 guests, regardless of whether they are owners or exchangers, but the pool area can only hold 50 people, Vidanta's answer to that problem is to only penalize exchangers.
> 
> What would happen if all owners went there instead?  Would they they tell some owners "sorry, you can't go here"?



The RM - GL Beach Club restriction (IMO) is because of GL Jungle . These buildings are :
1 bedroom suites ( approx. 1200 sq feet ) The physical buildings have existed since 2005 but had not previously been finished or opened .

Vidanta branded them Grand Luxe based on the interior finishing and for market / exchanger purposes .

It also likely gave them “overflow “ GL owner capacity for peak season .

“Overbuilt “ does not seem to be a term in the corporate Vidanta vocabulary .
They seem to see it as exchanger / sales prospect capacity .

In the days of one in three rules ; they restricted repeat exchanges to increase new prospects .
Now they allow unlimited exchanges at aggressive value ( + the resort fee - that likely helps their hotel side ).

IMO - their goal is to move the average off season filled/ capacity level from xx% to xxx% . Let’s say
55% to 75%  since their incremental cost of additional staff is low . They then plan on selling xx%
of those exchangers . Let’s say 3 in 10 or better ( including exit package sales )
More prospects = more sales .

They likely don’t care if any of those who -DID NOT BUY - ever come back ( either due to resort fees or any other reason ) What they want is a new crop next year . If the resort fee impacts the number of NEW sales prospects - they will adjust the yardage lines on the field .

The interesting sidebar - right now there is nothing listed past Dec. 2019 on RCI .
The NV Cirque Park is scheduled to open about then .


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## jssquared (May 10, 2018)

This is a very interesting conversation.  I will chime in as a long time 4 bedroom residence owner with some thoughts.
1. Vidanta has always believed in a model of stratification.  Anyone staying on the resort in accommodations other than the Luxxe cannot use the Luxxe only pools, gyms, restaurants, etc.  So, the precedent is there to differentiate between guests.  It is not surprising that they operate according to a similar strategy with exchangers.  The companies main focus is getting someone to attend a presentation.  Once at the presentations, according to Vida's numbers (and I have absolutely no way to know if these are accurate), they close better the two thirds of the time.  So, if by waiving the exchange fees to get another body to the presentation and then can close 2/3rds of those folks, that is big numbers.  (my own opinion is this harms the resort long term because of the negative publicity this receives on EVERY message board and review site).
2. Vidanta has always allowed owners to negotiate various aspects of their contracts upon purchase.  So, there is also a variety of owners, within the same unit type, who have very different access to perks, amenities, benefits, and even the dollar amount of maintenance fees.  I am told this will no longer be the case going forward as Vida Vacations is resetting the process to try to make the future contracts as uniform as possible.
3. Selfishly, as an owner I want to be assured that I will have guaranteed access to everything that I was promised.  I don't want to have to fight with exchangers/guests for chairs at the platinum area of the pools, for the beach club, for restaurant reservations.  Vidanta has a huge inherent conflict that I have no idea how to resolve.  You have owners that have paid literally hundreds of thousands of dollars for contracts (I don't care about the maintenance fee, the cost of the contract is what matters to the owners) to use the resort.  So, Vidanta would like to please these owners.  BUT, Vida Vacations needs to sell more contracts.  The only way to sell more contracts is to generate more prospects.  The only way to generate more prospects is to get folks to the resort who do not already own contracts - exchanges, conferences, theme park, Cirque du Soleil, Hakkassan, etc, etc.  But, you have the tension between these two competing constituencies that is constantly present.
4. I post my weeks for rent on the various vacation share sites and have had good success renting out weeks, particularly during high season.  It is a bit difficult given the time frame for when people generally book vacations (shorter term) and when you must reserve a week with Vidanta to make sure you get the inventory (one year).  There are some owners who rent out for ridiculously low prices which is impacting the rental by owner market.  But, there IS a market for very high end rentals - particularly in the highest end Vida inventory.
5. Reservations - this is a MASSIVE issue for the contract owners.  It is impossible to get a clear answer from Vidanta or Vida Vacations.  It is become incredibly difficult for owners to obtain weeks for their own use. There are many reasons for this lack of inventory, but I would speculate that a significant issue is the developer reserving the inventory for their own use - exchanges, conferences, promotions, etc.  Again, a tension between existing owners and the sales operations.
6. New policies - I think we will see new policies over the next year or two.  Both related to improving Vidanta's reputation and image among its current owners (can't bite the hand that feeds you) and as the park comes online.  Vidanta is expecting more than 1 million annual visitors when phase 1 of the park opens.  That will at least double, according to their projections, when the whole park is complete.  Further, there will be a Hakkassan project in both Nuevo and Riviera, following the launch earlier this year in Cabo.  These mega projects will bring in large, large numbers of people who are also sales prospects.  I have been told that owners will really see some tangible improvements to their reservation and overall experience.  This is critical at a moment where hundreds of thousands or possibly even millions more people will be coming through the resort annually.
7. Park - It makes sense according to the post above that there is nothing scheduled after the projected completion date of the park.  I would imagine this development is going to change the whole dynamic of Vidanta and Vida Vacations.  We will see.
8. Some advice - we have never taken advantage of an exchange OUT of Vidanta and into another resort.  In the 4 bed we have access to essentially every exchange company: Elite Allliance, Registry, SFX, Vida Lifestyle, and sites like Third Home.  If anyone can share insight, or perhaps point me to a relevant thread, about maximizing/optimizing an exchange out of Vida that would be great.
Feel free to ask me anything.  I tend to be a bit cautious about sharing info that I learn from Vida, but will be as forthcoming as possible.


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## Eric B (May 10, 2018)

Thanks for the insights JS.  As far as optimizing an exchange out of Vidanta goes, I started a thread on what I understand is a new program with Registry at https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/grand-luxxe-registry-collection-program-update.271313/.  Under this, for spa level and up you get 2 for 1 for your contracted week deposited with the capability to exchange into any resorts they have available.  It’s a bit more beneficial for me being at the 1 BR Loft level because you have to deposit your contracted week.  Maybe they’ll adjust that later.  I’ve only used it to trade back into GL at a higher level so far, but plan on trying out some of the other resorts they have available.

As far as renting goes, I’m a bit torn on whether it’s worth the effort.  As you mentioned, it ties up the MF cash for about a year.  Even with doubling or tripling the fee as rent, it seems to me not to be a money maker on the underlying cost and I’d just as soon go on vacation.

Haven’t owned as long as many here, but I do see the sales-hotel tension, too.  I’m cheering for the hotel side myself, but recognize that the sales side is a necessary evil in that business model.


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## richontug (May 10, 2018)

Very interesting thread that has confirmed my current knowledge of Vidanta.
I bought into Mayan Palace many years ago but have never been there.  I trade into GM and GL through SFX and have not had a problem getting peak time.
Conversations at GL pool have indicated owners have problems making reservations.  
Upgrade presentations by sales people have not convinced me no matter offer.
JS - why do you say owners don't care about MF.  Often rental rates appear to be lower than corresponding MF.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (May 10, 2018)

richontug said:


> Conversations at GL pool have indicated owners have problems making reservations
> 
> MF.



Hi Rich ,
RE : owners having problems making reservations .

I think this is a “problem “across most TS systems when you have peak times / high demand resorts , and owners who’s TS learning curve is less sophistcated than active  TUG members .
If you ask- did you call at 8 am on the first day of your ARP ? :many would not know when that was . ( IMO )

*******

Full disclosure - the first time I booked after buying ; I called in early Jan 2010 for Feb 2010. I was looking for MP PV Marina which was sold out . My choices were MP Acapulco or Sea Garden Mazatlan .
We had a wonderful week in Mazatlan .

After that I started learning how to better use what we owned .
and now how to also use our  other ownership  to most effectively exchange in through RCI .

FYI - In 2007 & 2008 I paid the MF , deposited into RCI and eventually wasted those weeks by letting them expire . In 2009 - Grupo Mayan gave everyone - “ no go / no pay “ - likely because they had slowed the building down and were “oversold “in the owners category and figured enough owners would pass to allow them to keep the exchanger pipeline to sales going .

Vidanta is an interesting organization .


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## pittle (May 10, 2018)

"Vidanta is an interesting organization ."

Yes it is!!!  We have owned since February 1999 and experienced many changes and have owned various levels from Sea Garden to Grand Luxxe. It never ceases to amaze me!


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## jssquared (May 10, 2018)

richontug said:


> Very interesting thread that has confirmed my current knowledge of Vidanta.
> I bought into Mayan Palace many years ago but have never been there.  I trade into GM and GL through SFX and have not had a problem getting peak time.
> Conversations at GL pool have indicated owners have problems making reservations.
> Upgrade presentations by sales people have not convinced me no matter offer.
> JS - why do you say owners don't care about MF.  Often rental rates appear to be lower than corresponding MF.



Sorry, I should have been more clear.  The purchase cost of the contract is many, many, many multiples of the MF.  So, I relate my measure of investment in Vidanta, relative to other Vidanta owners (MP, GM, GB, etc.) and exchangers (what it cost for them to buy units at their home resorts) based on initial investment.  The magnitude of difference between buying the respective contracts is far greater than the difference in maintenance fee.  Also, many Vidanta owners have been able to negotiate an addendum that waives the mandatory maintenance fee.  This is another reason why exchanging out of Vidanta is somewhat less appealing.  I only pay when I use a week and therefore don't have any need to "use" or "exchange" a mandatory annual maintenance fee.  Therefore, I do not need to rent to cover my cost (as there is no annual cost).  But, want to rent to make a profit.


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## heathpack (May 10, 2018)

I like Grand Luxxe.  It’s very nice.

But the resorts I own are very nice too.  

It’s not my fault/problem that Vida dumps units into every exchange company out there, giving their owners low trading power.  It’s not my fault/problem that Vida’s business model relies upon continual building and thus continual need for fresh prospects.  It’s not my fault/problem that they can’t figure out how to ensure their owners get the best units at the best times of the year. 

But expecting me to pay for these issues that Vida creates, above the value of my deposit and exchange fee, is unreasonable IMO.  Knowing the access rules to resort amenities could change at any time is a huge turn off.

No biggie though.  We can just go somewhere else.  We are considering taking Thanksgiving week off and have an SFX week to use up.  Considered Grand Luxxe and explained to husband that we might be denied access to certain restaurants or areas of the resort.  His response was: screw that, let’s go to Sedona.


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## T-Dot-Traveller (May 10, 2018)

Hi jsssquared,
Re : exchanging out from Grand Luxxe .

I am not sure it makes sense based on the MF for GL. and the reality of getting
a trade down after paying the GL MF .
The Registry Collections option Eric has  recently posted information on
may give options .

If your ownership includes  SFX Vida weeks - those may work cost effectively since using them does not  affect use of your registered GL week(s)
Alternately - having  other TS ownership(s) seems the best option .

Then the question is RCI weeks - RCI points - II traders  or
 points systems like Wyndham with lots of internal resort options .

Eric's Massanuttan fits the role .

Decent ones can be found for free / transfer cost in the TUG bargain sub forum .  .


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## Eric B (May 11, 2018)

T-Dot-Traveller said:


> The interesting sidebar - right now there is nothing listed past Dec. 2019 on RCI .
> The NV Cirque Park is scheduled to open about then .



My thoughts on the timing of the NV Cirque Park and the current availability of Vidanta resorts in all of the exchanges is that they probably are not really linked to each other.  The bulk deposits Vidanta made at all of the resorts ran through December 2019 and I can't come up with a good rationale for why availability at Puerto Penasco or Riviera Maya should be linked to the park in Nuevo Vallarta.  Instead, I would look at it as related to how they write contracts to new owners, which is typically on a "registered week" basis under a 10-year contract with additional "residence weeks" under the renewable 10-year to 100-year contract; the "registered weeks" are every other year with "alternate year weeks" in the off years.  At the end of 2017, they knew how many contracts were outstanding for registered weeks in 2018 and 2019 and therefore how many weeks could be allocated to exchanging through the end of 2019, given that they don't have an obligation to set aside weeks for the alternate year weeks or residence weeks.  They wouldn't have that information for 2020 yet because they're still working on selling contracts that start in 2020; my best guess (and it's purely speculation on my part) is that there won't be bulk deposits for 2020 until we're closer to the end of 2018.

If you follow the availability of Grand Luxxe weeks in Registry, you'll see that they trickle in there about a year out from the check in date starting in late March.  This strikes me as being more closely aligned with unallocated weeks for which they haven't had owners make reservations in the lower seasons.  There don't seem to be bulk deposits either in Registry or SFX from what I can see, and the resort fee issue is treated considerably differently for those mechanisms.  This is all purely speculation on my part, of course, based on observations from the outside.



jssquared said:


> 6. New policies - I think we will see new policies over the next year or two.  Both related to improving Vidanta's reputation and image among its current owners (can't bite the hand that feeds you) and as the park comes online.  Vidanta is expecting more than 1 million annual visitors when phase 1 of the park opens.  That will at least double, according to their projections, when the whole park is complete.  Further, there will be a Hakkassan project in both Nuevo and Riviera, following the launch earlier this year in Cabo.  These mega projects will bring in large, large numbers of people who are also sales prospects.  I have been told that owners will really see some tangible improvements to their reservation and overall experience.  This is critical at a moment where hundreds of thousands or possibly even millions more people will be coming through the resort annually.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



I hope you're right about the new policies.  I know that there is a planned announcement by Vidanta sometime this year on the new policies with Registry for exchanges; Registry has steadfastly declined to provide me with its full terms and told me on my last call with them that Vidanta (or more likely Vida Vacations) would be the ones putting them out to owners.  They've also got to be nearing the start of their cruise service out of Puerto Vallarta; that ship has been in the yards for a while now.

I hadn't heard of the Third Home exchange.  Looks like it might be interesting.  They seem to have Grand Mayan and Grand Bliss units in there as well.  Might have to try that one sometime.  Have you used them to rent out yours?


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## mikenk (May 11, 2018)

heathpack said:


> But expecting me to pay for these issues that Vida creates, above the value of my deposit and exchange fee, is unreasonable IMO.  Knowing the access rules to resort amenities could change at any time is a huge turn off.



You're exactly right, it is unreasonable to expect someone like you to trade an equal quality resort and also pay a surcharge. It is also unreasonable from a different perspective for someone to trade a one bedroom basic TS for a 3 bedroom Grand Luxxe Spa. Both are going on; my guess more of the latter.

You're also exactly right that Vidanta has created this "fairness" problem by routinely dumping "non exchange" inventory into exchange companies that operate in the traditional timeshare market. Mixing the two systems really screws thinks up from their customers' perspective (both owners and exchangers). I would hope they might figure that out in the future; the idea proposed to go strictly to a hotel model for unused inventory makes sense to me

Mike


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## tschwa2 (May 11, 2018)

mikenk said:


> You're exactly right, it is unreasonable to expect someone like you to trade an equal quality resort and also pay a surcharge. It is also unreasonable from a different perspective for someone to trade a one bedroom basic TS for a 3 bedroom Grand Luxxe Spa. Both are going on; my guess more of the latter.
> 
> You're also exactly right that Vidanta has created this "fairness" problem by routinely dumping "non exchange" inventory into exchange companies that operate in the traditional timeshare market. Mixing the two systems really screws thinks up from their customers' perspective (both owners and exchangers). I would hope they might figure that out in the future; the idea proposed to go strictly to a hotel model for unused inventory makes sense to me
> 
> Mike


I think the problem with that is to fill all those units during off peak times they would have to rent them for MF or less than MF's and that would destroy the illusion even more that you have to pony up $80,000+ to buy into Luxxe plus MF in order to enjoy luxxe.  By dumping the inventory with multiple exchange companies they can keep up the pretense that it is a private club and you can't just rent the units. "We have to allow exchangers because that is what allows our members to travel to other locations."  The exchange guests are at least still members in the "vacation ownership" club and aren't just off the street.


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## hurnik (May 21, 2018)

Well now this is interesting.

This is from FB, not sure if it's 100% official Vidanta or not:

https://www.facebook.com/ultimatevacationaccess/

But what I like is the:
1) inaccurate (lie) that you can only stay at the resort through renting from an owner or Ambassador Cert. (apparently never heard of RCI, SFX, or II).

2)  Notice the rates that they claim are *weekly*.  



**** UPDATED MAY 1, 2018****

The contents of this page are the property of the page owner. Use of this page's content including its proprietary images is not allowed unless permission is granted by the page owner.

ABSOLUTELY NO ADVERTISING YOUR VIDANTA OR ANY OTHER PROPERTY OR SERVICE ON THIS PAGE OR YOU WILL BE REMOVED.

If you are not an owner with Vidanta there are only two ways you can visit any of the seven resort locations. One is to rent an owner's week from them. The other is to use a one-time certificate called an Ambassador certificate. This gives you the ability to spend a week at the resort. Once you have used a certificate you can not use another in the future... Do you need a certificate? Just message us and we will provide you with one. They are limited so do not wait!

You can book the following units/sizes using our certificates and by calling 800-292-9446 to book.

2018 Rates (includes a $50 non-refundable reservation fee):

MAYAN PALACE:
Master (studio) $700
Suite (1 bedroom) $900
Master Suite (2 bedroom) $1,100

BLISS:
Master (studio) $700
Suite (1 bedroom) $900
Master Suite (2 bedroom) $1,100

GRAND MAYAN:
Master (studio) $850
Suite (1 bedroom) $950
Master Suite (2 bedroom) $1,450

GRAND BLISS:
Master (studio) $950
Suite (1 bedroom) $1,050
Master Suite (2 bedroom) $1,550

GRAND LUXXE:
Master (Studio) $1,350
Jr Suite (1 bedroom, no kitchen) $1,450
Luxxe Loft (1 bedroom, kitchenette) $1,450
1 Bedroom Suite (1 bedroom, full kitchen) $1,700
2 Bedroom Suite (2 bedroom, full kitchen) $2,350
2 Bedroom Spa Suite (2 Bedroom, full kitchen, massage table) $2,450
2 Bedroom Villa (2 Bedroom, 2 Livingroom, full kitchen) $2,450

GRAND LUXXE RESIDENCE:
1 Bedroom Residence Loft (2 floors, full kitchen) $2,450

THE ESTATES:
1 Bedroom Estate (Ultimate Luxury, coming 2019) $2,550


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## Eric B (May 21, 2018)

Interesting; my best guess is that this belongs to someone looking to pass on some Ambassador certificates.  Prices for a week stay in the units matches the standard usage fee plus $50 that it would cost with one of those.  At least they aren’t trying to sell them.

I’d say it’s not a page set up by Vidanta. That would make the claim of ownership of the content likely false with respect to the pictures, too.


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