# The new price per point is $9.60



## windje2000 (Sep 3, 2010)

Just got an MVCI postcard.  Bring a qualified referral to Orlando and you can share a 3 night stay in a 2BR (plus  4 tickets to something) for $149 per couple at MGV between 9/1 and 11/20.

Of perhaps greater interest, the price of a beneficial interest (250 points) is quoted as starting(?) at $2,400 effective 9/2010 (no day, just month and year)

That's *$9.60 per point*.  Click on the thumbnail below for an image of the card


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## DanCali (Sep 3, 2010)

The income requirement is also interesting. 

Was the income requirement always $100K for Marriott presentations (I think it's $75K for Starwood)? If they increased it, that's not a bad thing. Better to limit the audience to people who can afford what they are selling... Delinquencies are not good for anyone.


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## rthib (Sep 3, 2010)

*Price going up 9/9*

Got a note from sales rep mentioning prices going up 9/9.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 3, 2010)

I've had some Marriott reps tell me that points prices were going up after December 31.  Have not heard anything about also going up in September.


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## tiel (Sep 3, 2010)

We got an email from our VOA today advising us the price/point is going up next week.  No specifics provided.  Just encouraged to call for more information ASAP.


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## classiclincoln (Sep 3, 2010)

Guess Marriott doesn't love us; no postcard, no call to do a phone meeting, no nothing!:whoopie:


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## dioxide45 (Sep 3, 2010)

tiel said:


> We got an email from our VOA today advising us the price/point is going up next week.  No specifics provided.  Just encouraged to call for more information ASAP.



I didn't think VOAs were sales people?


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## pwrshift (Sep 3, 2010)

I hear some VOA's get 'finder's fees' and it's worth their time to mention it but the full 'points specialists' apparently get up to 40% commission on points sales to newbies as well as legacy people, and that's why they try to push you into buying 1000-1500 points with your legacy enrollment.  I understand that none are getting rich on those commission rates...'not like the old days' a former rep said.  I suspect if you buy more points later your original point rep gets commissions even if he doesn't contact you...a little like insurance salesmen.  I think it's obvious they want you to enroll first but plan on forcing you into points at some future date.  Time will tell...

Brian


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## BocaBoy (Sep 4, 2010)

DanCali said:


> The income requirement is also interesting.
> 
> Was the income requirement always $100K for Marriott presentations (I think it's $75K for Starwood)? If they increased it, that's not a bad thing. Better to limit the audience to people who can afford what they are selling... Delinquencies are not good for anyone.



The income requirement has always varied by resort.  Most I have seen are $75,000, but I have seen one at $85,000 and a couple at $100,00.


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## Jeffrey (Sep 4, 2010)

Just attended a presentation yesterday on Kauai.  
I was told the price is scheduled to rise on 09/08.  The amount was not stated.


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## nspils (Sep 4, 2010)

We attended a presentation on Sept 2 in Maui. We were told that the $9.60 per point price begins Sept 8. We bought enough points to get to "Premier" status to be able to use the 13 month reservation window, and they enrolled our "legacy" Waiohai week for no additional charge.


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## BigGene (Sep 4, 2010)

*Value assigned to properties not fixed*

Marriott Customer Advocate informed me that the value of my Fairway Villas and Ocean Watch properties are fixed. They will never increase. But the cost of obtaining these properties using the Destination Points are NOT FIXED. It will cost more and more DP to obtain these and the other properties as the years pass. In other words you will continually have to buy more DP to use the same properties.


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## mas (Sep 4, 2010)

BigGene said:


> Marriott Customer Advocate informed me that the value of my Fairway Villas and Ocean Watch properties are fixed. *They will never increase*. But the cost of obtaining these properties using the Destination Points are NOT FIXED. *It will cost more and more* DP to obtain these and the other properties as the years pass. In other words you will continually have to buy more DP to use the same properties.



This doesn't surprise me in the least.  Look at the continual devaluation of the Marriott Rewards points.  Why would anyone expect Marriott to treat the DP program any different.  This is a VERY expensive program that is only going to get MORE expensive with time.  

If we think the skim is bad now, wait another five years, legacy week redemption rates will remain fixed, while the cost of DP weeks will continue to rise.  It won't be long before skim values are 50% or more.  :wink:

An obviously points purchasers won't escape this 'inflation' either, as $9.20/point will seem like a bargain five years from now.  But not to worry...The Marriott sales force is most likely busy at work trying to come up with a sales angle of why the next price/point rate hike will be the greatest thing since sliced bread.  We all remember, I'm sure, how the 'no blackout dates' made the MR program MUCH better, right?


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## kjd (Sep 6, 2010)

When I purchased pre-construction from Marriott I seem to remember receiving about 250,000 MRP as a sales incentive. Points at the time were valued at about 1.5-2.5 cents per point.  You could take a nice overseas vacation with that by using one of the travel packages.

Compared to today's offers for a new weekly points purchase, are the incentives as big as the former purchase incentives?  One would think with the timeshare market in the dumper and the usual stories about ts companies' reputations, purchase incentives would be high.  My impression from reading the TUG threads is that present day incentives are less.  Is this true?


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## ironweed (Sep 6, 2010)

*Think I can sue ?????*

How do ya like that !!!!
The bums raised the price of points without EVER giving me a chance to buy in :annoyed: 
Do you think I can sue ?????   :hysterical:


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## KathyPet (Sep 6, 2010)

THis is exactly my problem with this point system.  You purchase enough points to get you the season, view and unit size and resort you want and then a few years from now they increase the # of points it takes to get the same thing.  At least when you buy a deeded week its yours, you've bought it and they cannot increase the price on you.


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## mas (Sep 6, 2010)

kjd said:


> ...Compared to today's offers for a new weekly points purchase, are the incentives as big as the former purchase incentives?  One would think with the timeshare market in the dumper and the usual stories about ts companies' reputations, purchase incentives would be high.  My impression from reading the TUG threads is that present day incentives are less.  Is this true?



With the exception of the 1,000,000 points incentive for Lakeshore Reserve about a year ago or so, the incentives have been practically non existent.  Just prior to the DP program change over,you were lucky to get 50,000 to 100,000 incentive points for a $30k to $40k purchase.  I bought a BeachPlace platinum week for $18k in 2000 and got 360,000 points incentive.  I bought MOW, Gold season, in 2007 for $22K and received 50,000 points.


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## taffy19 (Sep 6, 2010)

KathyPet said:


> THis is exactly my problem with this point system. You purchase enough points to get you the season, view and unit size and resort you want and then a few years from now they increase the # of points it takes to get the same thing. At least when you buy a deeded week its yours, you've bought it and they cannot increase the price on you.


This is exactly the reason why resort developers went to points rather than keeping a week-based program.  It was mainly for *their benefit* because the timeshare owners always have to buy more points eventually because new resorts cost more to build or they say that it's inflation.  Nothing stops them from doing that, I believe.

They are selling us "flexibility"  now but forgot to mention that it will cost us dearly over time.  They told us the opposite for over 25 years that a week is a week and will always be a week and a lock-off unit could be stretched to even two weeks.  I wonder how much longer we can count on this if we keep exchanging through II instead of with the new MVCDEP?

I also wonder how long they will keep the two programs side by side once they get the majority vote at the resorts. Time will tell but could they legally discontinue the exchange program through II and the internal one too since you paid a fee to join the program?  It's only good for one year so could they discontinue it eventually?


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## dioxide45 (Sep 6, 2010)

mas said:


> With the exception of the 1,000,000 points incentive for Lakeshore Reserve about a year ago or so, the incentives have been practically non existent.  Just prior to the DP program change over,you were lucky to get 50,000 to 100,000 incentive points for a $30k to $40k purchase.  I bought a BeachPlace platinum week for $18k in 2000 and got 360,000 points incentive.  I bought MOW, Gold season, in 2007 for $22K and received 50,000 points.



The 1MM MRP for Lakeshore required the purchaser to give up I think the first five years of usage. So the actual incentive points upfront were much less.


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## bigdriz (Sep 10, 2010)

Did the price per point go up to $9.60 on September 8th as promised by numerous salesmen?


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## kjd (Sep 10, 2010)

The new DC roll-out continues like a new plant growing out of a seed.  The Marriott product has mutated into several strange life forms that are vastly different than what we were told we were getting with our original purchases.  Whether you purchased direct or resale it doesn't really matter.  It amounts to the same thing.  You acted based upon Marriott's brand name.

The reality is that there is no market price for points.  Only what Marriott says it is.  When you don't have a deed you have only a promise.  That's why IMO Marriott DC points in a resale market will eventually be considered almost worthless by most buyers.  I don't believe it is comparable to the DVC because Disney is in the entertainment business. Marriott is a hotelier with timeshares as a sideline.  Other such hoteliers selling timeshare points are having similar problems.

Legacy owners or owners who purchase a deeded property at least have ownership rights to their "home resort".  Granted, the resale timeshare market has severely depressed prices in this recession.  At least a deeded owner can still get some money back from their original purchase.  The prices could also rise in a better market.

As for point purchasers, a cryptic note.  Beware!  Remember what happened to S & H Green Stamps?


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## windje2000 (Sep 10, 2010)

kjd said:


> The new DC roll-out continues like a new plant growing out of a seed.  The Marriott product has mutated into several strange life forms that are vastly different than what we were told we were getting with our original purchases.  Whether you purchased direct or resale it doesn't really matter.  It amounts to the same thing.  You acted based upon Marriott's brand name.
> 
> The reality is that there is no market price for points.  Only what Marriott says it is.  When you don't have a deed you have only a promise.  *That's why IMO Marriott DC points in a resale market will eventually be considered almost worthless by most buyers.*  I don't believe it is comparable to the DVC because Disney is in the entertainment business. Marriott is a hotelier with timeshares as a sideline.  Other such hoteliers selling timeshare points are having similar problems.
> 
> ...



IIRC, if you buy DClub points resale, you can only reserve 60 days out no matter how many you own.  

That's certainly a resale value killer for DClub points.

I do remember S&H green stamps - and Plaid (A&P) stamps too!


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## DanCali (Sep 10, 2010)

kjd said:


> The reality is that there is no market price for points.  Only what Marriott says it is.



Marriott will indirectly control the resale price of points by restricting their use.

The points have value by letting you reserve (or rather, exchange into) accommodations at Marriott-class properties. If Marriott would let a points owner resell the product they bought then there would definitely be a resale market for points. It may not be $10/point, but it would be more than $2/point and less than $5/point... But, obviously, that would kill the overpriced retail market so, instead, Marriott kills the resale market by restricting points.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 13, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> IIRC, if you buy DClub points resale, you can only reserve 60 days out no matter how many you own.
> 
> That's certainly a resale value killer for DClub points.
> 
> I do remember S&H green stamps - and Plaid (A&P) stamps too!



This is only true unless you pay the extortion (err, initiation) fee of at least $2000.


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## windje2000 (Sep 13, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> This is only true unless you pay the extortion (err, initiation) fee of at least $2000.




Dioxide - I don't think that's entirely correct



> D. Effect of Transfer of Member’s Interest.
> 
> Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties to a sale, assignment, or transfer, if a Member (“Selling Member”) sells, assigns, or transfers the Selling Member’s Interest to another party (“New Member”), the Selling Member will lose any and all rights to utilize the Exchange Points associated with such Interest to reserve the use of a Use Period or to use any previously-reserved Use Period. Each New Member will be required to remit to the Association an initiation fee; provided, however, an initiation fee shall not be required to be paid by an existing Member. (The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a $2,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.) Exchange Company will, within ten (10) business days of receipt from a New Member of the initiation fee, if required, and a certified copy of the recorded deed transferring an Interest to the New Member, change Exchange Company’s official records to reflect such transfer of an Interest from a Selling Member to a New Member. Further, with respect to Trust Members, until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the New Member may not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion; however, payment of the initiation fee (or waiver by Exchange Company) will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. With respect to Exchange Members, until payment of the enrollment fee, the New Member will not be entitled to participate in the Program. *If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid.* Unless otherwise agreed to in writing by the parties, all existing reservations previously made by the Selling Member will be cancelled. The New Member will also be given possession of the Selling Member’s Exchange Points remaining as of the date of Exchange Company’s recognition of such transfer. Exchange Company shall, from time to time, within ten (10) business days after receipt of written request from any Member execute, acknowledge and deliver to such Member or to any existing or prospective purchaser or mortgagee designated by such Member, a certificate stating the number of Exchange Points that the Member has used and/or has available for use during the current Use Year, any borrowed Exchange Points, and the details of any reservations currently held by the Member. Exchange Company may charge a fee in connection with providing such a certificate.



emphasis mine  --  quote is from page 13 of the document linked below

link - login required   https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/exchange_procedures.pdf


A resale points owner does not appear to have the right to all the benefits (even if the initiation fee is paid) if the points are not purchased through an Approved Broker.

What's unclear is what happens if an existing Member buys resale points from a seller other than through an Approved Broker.  There would be no initiation fee, but would the points automatically be entitled to Special Benefits?  I think not.

Note also the very first sentence - regarding points usage and existing reservations.  Points transfers need to reference these issues in writing.


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## dioxide45 (Sep 13, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> Dioxide - I don't think that's entirely correct
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you are confusing Special Benefits with Base Plus Exchange Benefits.

Base Plus Exchange Benefits


> Base Plus Exchange Benefits mean the ability to make exchanges during all the Reservation Windows subject to these Exchange Procedures and access to such other programs and services defined and offered by Exchange Company as Base Plus Exchange Benefits, from time to time, in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.



Special Benefits


> Special Benefits mean special products, services, benefits, and vacation/recreational experiences offered by Exchange Company, including, without limitation, the ability to reserve hotel accommodations, cruises, other travel services, and to receive Single Use Points. The ability to utilize a Special Benefit may not be available to all Members including, specifically, Members who are entitled only to Base Exchange Benefits. If Special Benefits are available and a Member is eligible to purchase or utilize any Special Benefits, separate terms and conditions shall apply to the purchase and use of such Special Benefits.



By not using an approved broker you will not have access to the Special Benefits. But paying the initiation fee allows you access to the exchange company Base Plus Exchange Benefits.


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## DanCali (Sep 13, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> By not using an approved broker you will not have access to the Special Benefits. But paying the initiation fee allows you access to the exchange company Base Plus Exchange Benefits.



Just to clarify - "approved broker" is still an oxymoron, right?

According to this post and this post, there are (currently) no "approved brokers," including Marriott itself...

In the context of this discussion, that implies a resale buyer never gets the "Special Benefits"...


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## windje2000 (Sep 13, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> *I think you are confusing Special Benefits with Base Plus Exchange Benefits.*



Update - SEE POST 32 BELOW

Dioxide - You appear to be right - It appears I did indeed confuse the Special Benefits with the Base Plus Exchange benefits 

Having said that -- what is the right to receive single use points?


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## hotcoffee (Sep 13, 2010)

windje2000 said:


> what is the right to receive single use points?



My understanding is single-use points are one-time points that you can buy from Marriott for use in the current use year.  They cannot be banked.  I am assuming that one would buy them if he were to fall just a little short of being able to reserve the vacation he wants.  He would buy and immediately use a small number of single-use points to make up the difference.

If anyone understands their use differently, feel free to post your understanding of their use.


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## scpoidog (Sep 13, 2010)

*One time points*



hotcoffee said:


> My understanding is single-use points are one-time points that you can buy from Marriott for use in the current use year.  They cannot be banked.  I am assuming that one would buy them if he were to fall just a little short of being able to reserve the vacation he wants.  He would buy and immediately use a small number of single-use points to make up the difference.
> 
> If anyone understands their use differently, feel free to post your understanding of their use.



If you are referring to the 800 one time points that you get if you enroll in the points system, then you are correct and they cannot be banked, but they will be the first points that are used in your reservations.   You can then bank your remaining points from the week you deposited.  

I don't think that you can buy "one-time" points if you are short.  You'd have to borrow into the next year, which will then leave you committed for one more year in the points system.  When I went to my presentation, my sales guy told me that you could only purchase in blocks of 250 points, but you'd have to buy 1000 points at a minimum.  You can also buy/"rent" points from other members or trade with family or friends.


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## hotcoffee (Sep 13, 2010)

As I recall, single use points are mentioned a few times in one or two of the documents that Marriott has published.  I found the quote below in the Exchange Procedures document with a very quick check, but I remember seeing other references in at least one other document.  Not a lot written about them.

_"Exchange Company may fulfill a Member’s request to access Accommodations or other benefits by the use of Single Use Points in accordance with the following priorities (in the order provided): (i) Exchange Company’s right to charge for any Single Use Points allocated to or controlled by Exchange Company; and (ii) the Affiliate Program developer’s right to charge for any Single Use Points allocated to or controlled by such developer. The ability to reserve Accommodations by utilizing Single Use Points is a Special Benefit through the Program offered by Exchange Company."_


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## windje2000 (Sep 14, 2010)

dioxide45 said:


> *I think you are confusing Special Benefits with Base Plus Exchange Benefits.*
> 
> By not using an approved broker you will not have access to the Special Benefits. *But paying the initiation fee allows you access to the exchange company Base Plus Exchange Benefits.*




Found it!  No Approved Broker means virtually no exchange benefits for you! Even if the initiation fee is paid!  See below




> VI. Miscellaneous Provisions
> 
> 1. Base Exchange Benefits, Base Plus Exchange Benefits, and Exchange Benefits. Exchange Company may offer Exchange Benefits other than Base Exchange Benefits and Base Plus Exchange Benefits to certain Members, from time to time. Exchange Company reserves the right to establish such rules and regulations as it deems necessary to adequately govern Member access to Exchange Benefits which may include certain fees. *In addition, Exchange Company reserves the right to restrict the offering or use of any Base Plus Exchange Benefits and Exchange Benefits to certain Members, including, without limitation, allowing use of such Exchange Benefits only to those Members who purchase their Interests from an Approved Broker.* The Exchange Benefits are subject to separate terms and conditions, which may be changed, substituted, or eliminated without prior notice. Some Exchange Benefits may be provided by independent third parties and Exchange Company expressly disclaims responsibility for the acts or omissions of any persons or entities providing Exchange Benefits.



Link to pdf - page 4 - Login required  https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/disclosure_guide.pdf

Dioxide -  I thought I had read this in one of the docs


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## kjd (Sep 15, 2010)

Attention Trust Members:

You have given away all of your rights by agreeing to the fine print contained in the trust documents. Wording like "The Exchange Benefits are subject to separate terms and conditions, which may be changed, substituted, or eliminated without prior notice" or; "The Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion" and; "Additional payments may be required to access the Exchange Benefits." 

In plain language the trust is whatever Marriott says it is. No one else has any say in any changes.  Permanent changes in the trust can be made at any time at the convenience of Marriott.  Owners without a deeded property in the trust in reality own a license.  Something akin to a fishing license that gives you the right to participate under certain stated conditions without any guarantees.  Next year can be different than this year.  The Exchange Benefits as stated are subject to separate terms and conditions, which may be changed, substituted, or eliminated without prior notice.

I would also like to see a working definition of an "Approved Broker".  Could a broker become "unapproved"?   Will ebay be approved?  I doubt it.  Reminds me of the old business adage "Where there is confusion, there is also profit".


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