# Has anyone gone to Havana from Cayman



## easyrider (Mar 5, 2007)

I was wondering if anyone has been to Cuba while visiting Grand Cayman ?


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## caribbeansun (Mar 5, 2007)

I haven't done it personally but Cayman Air does have a regular schedule of flights to Cuba in case you wondered.


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 5, 2007)

Make sure they do not stamp your passport in Cuba or you are in BIG trouble with the US State Department.


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## Steamboat Bill (Mar 5, 2007)

I have always wanted to do this....any Americans do it lately?


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## Dave M (Mar 5, 2007)

I agree with John.

Those contemplating a visit should carefully read the "Exit/Entry Requirements" section near the top of this page at the U.S. State Department site.





> Travelers who fail to comply with Department of Treasury regulations will face civil penalties and criminal prosecution upon return to the United States.


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## ralphd (Mar 5, 2007)

The Cuban authorities will not stamp your passport if requested. If you look back, I do not think anyone has ever been prosecuted for going to Cuba. There is also a list of occupations/reasons that will get you into Cuba legally.
It is not illegal to go to Cuba, it is illegal for US citizens to spend US dollars in Cuba. I think they also interpret US dollars as 'earned US dollars', which means foreign currency converted from US funds.


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 5, 2007)

Hi Ralph,

You are SO off base it's rediculous, do a little research on the web and find out of the hundreds who got prosecuted each year, read some of the travel mags and you'll also learn of this.

Just google for yourself. Bush and his buddies hate Cuba, they actually toughened up the regs.

I have to say this, one thing I hate about TUG is people with no facts posting away....

John Faeth


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 5, 2007)

This is a stat on US Government prosecution by the US Treasury, Office of Foreign Assets Control:

In contrast, OFAC opened 10,683 enforcement investigations since 1990 for possible violations of the long-standing economic embargo against Fidel Castro's regime, and collected more than $8 million in fines since 1994, mostly from people who sent money to, did business with or traveled to Cuba without permission.

The list of permissable trips, including educational excursions has been dramatically reduced under Bush.


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## Dave M (Mar 5, 2007)

There's no question that Ralph's first paragraph is inaccurate, as John's data confirms.

Actually, the second paragraph of Ralph's post is close to being correct, although not quite. There is a prohibition, as he states, against U.S. citizens spending money *in* Cuba, unless they are licensed to do so, such as some journalists may be. However, (from the State Department site)...





> The Regulations require that persons subject to U.S. jurisdiction be licensed to engage in any travel-related transactions related to travel to, from, and within Cuba.  Transactions related to tourist travel are not licensable.


Thus, any tourist who spends money in connection with getting to Cuba violates the Treasury regulations and becomes subject to prosecution.


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## easyrider (Mar 6, 2007)

Well it looks like we arent going to Cuba. Just out of curiosity has anyone met anyone who has been prosecuted ? How would any one even know a person was over in cuba if you paid cash ? Just wondering.....


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## Kola (Mar 6, 2007)

easysider said:


> Just out of curiosity has anyone met anyone who has been prosecuted ? How would any one even know a person was over in cuba if you paid cash ? Just wondering.....



Just out of curiosity.... why not ask any Canadian you are likely to meet this month in Orlando, or Miami, or Las Vegas, or.....well, almost anywhere. I bet you most of their expenses in Cuba are usually prepaid and for any extras cash is the only way to go !

Kola


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## CatLovers (Mar 6, 2007)

*Just ask for no stamp in your passport*

Canadians and Americans travel to Cuba all the time.  For the most part you don't even have to ask for "no stamp" on your passport as the Cuban officials routinely do not stamp Canadian and Americans passports.  They recognize that it could cause future problems and they are, for obvious reasons, unwilling to cause that kind of grief for their visiting tourists.  They recognize that many Canadians travel to the US as well, so they don't create a record on your passport, just in case if could be a problem in the future.  To be safe though, just ask for "no stamp".  Almost all the Americans going to Cuba go thru Canada or Mexico.


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## ricoba (Mar 6, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> Just google for yourself. Bush and his buddies hate Cuba, they actually toughened up the regs.



Speaking of facts, do you know any American president since the Bay of Pigs that's been cozy with Cuba?


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 6, 2007)

Hi Ricoba,

No our foreign policy has been ineffective for 47 years now. But Bush did toughen up regualtions that his father and Bill C. left alone.

Not an attack on GW, but I do wish things were better, I personally would love to visit Cuba...but the rules exist and are apparently considered a priority in enforcement. 

John


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## bogey21 (Mar 7, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> I have to say this, one thing I hate about TUG is people with no facts posting away....
> 
> John Faeth



John - Here are "no facts" for you.  I am a US citizen and routinely go to Cuba via Cancun.  I use a Bank of Montreal Visa Card and have absolutely no problem.  Cuba is deliteful.  Two trips ago I bought a Cuba National Baseball Team hat MADE IN CHINA.  Go figure!!

GEORGE


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## bogey21 (Mar 7, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> OFAC opened 10,683 enforcement investigations since 1990 for possible violations of the long-standing economic embargo against Fidel Castro's regime



Come on John, 10,000 in 15 years is what?  750 per year!!  Go to Cuba and enjoy.  It is a fabulous place.

GEORGE]


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## Kola (Mar 7, 2007)

For those with natural curiosity a few facts about foreign tourism in Cuba: total number of foreign tourists/year  2,300,000
of which with Canadian passports        600,000
(how many of these are Canadians living in the USA is unknown)
second place -tourists with British passports, followed by German, Dutch,etc.
In the last couple of years foreign tourism to Cuba has been declining mainly due to stronger competition by the Dominican Republic in terms of resort facilities and package pricing.

Kola


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## Carolinian (Mar 7, 2007)

bogey21 said:


> Come on John, 10,000 in 15 years is what?  750 per year!!  Go to Cuba and enjoy.  It is a fabulous place.
> 
> GEORGE]




I imagine that if you are unlucky enough to be one of the 750, it would NOT be an enjoyable experience!  There are too many other interesting places to go, where one does not have to worry about that problem.  My brother did go to Cuba on a scientific trip that was authorized and he did enjoy it, but for me I will wait until it is legal.


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## elina (Mar 7, 2007)

*Stamping the passport*

OK, I am now confused...  

We're going to Cuba in few months and we're Finnish citizens. However, we will fly back to Finland through New York where we will spend one night (actually after Cuba we will spend about 10 days in Mexico and then fly back to US). If they stamp our passport in Cuba can we have problems when returning to JFK and New York?

This is probably silly question, but just wanted to make sure.

Thanks,
Elina


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 7, 2007)

Hi Elina,

You will be fine. These restrictions apply only to US citizens and corporations.

John


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## ricoba (Mar 7, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> I do wish things were better, I personally would love to visit Cuba...but the rules exist and are apparently considered a priority in enforcement.
> 
> John



You are correct, we need a better policy on this issue.  Perhaps when Castro passes on, things may loosen a bit.  But until then,  there is a very large and influential voting block that has kept all previous administrations from changing the policy.

BTW, my wife and kids can go to Cuba, on their Canadian passport, but dad (me) would have to stay home.   Good thing we would all rather go to Hawaii! 

Rick


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## Beaglemom3 (Mar 7, 2007)

I was supposed to go to Cuba with a medical/nursing group (Madre) out of Boston. We were not on a humanitarian mission (I'd rather be helping out in New Orleans if it was), but on a cultural learning exchange. 
I will be glad to go when sanctions have eased.
B.


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## Rod in Louisiana (Mar 7, 2007)

Carolinian said:


> My brother did go to Cuba on a scientific trip that was authorized and he did enjoy it, but for me I will wait until it is legal.


 
Bravo, Carolinian. I, too, would love to visit Cuba. But I, like you, will wait until the laws of my country premit me to do so legally.


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## ralphd (Mar 25, 2007)

According to Frommer no one has been tried or convicted of traveling to Cuba:
See 'What to do if you get busted':
'   http://www.frommers.com/destinations/cuba/3173020059.html    '

Read 'Get Out' on Wikitravel:
The constitutionality of OFAC's "presumption of guilt" regarding spending money in Cuba has not been tested in the courts thus far.) 
'   http://wikitravel.org/en/Americans_in_Cuba   '

Sidestep travel website:
'    http://www.sidestep.com/travel-info-g10054-t48432-entry_requirements_cuba     '

Free legal advice is offered thru some of the links provided.

Other links are available thru Google search.

I have not been to Cuba and have no desire to visit the island.


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## ralphd (Mar 25, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> Hi Ralph,
> 
> You are SO off base it's rediculous, do a little research on the web and find out of the hundreds who got prosecuted each year, read some of the travel mags and you'll also learn of this.
> 
> ...




Hope you will post the link to the source of your information about the hundreds of people that are *prosecuted *each year!


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 25, 2007)

I consider settling for a $1,500 - $2,500 having been "prosecuted". Yes, my choice of the word prosecuted could infer being criminally indicted and taken to court, but that specific meaning was not my intent.

Use what words you will but many people have been forced to pay such large sums to settle their case on a civil basis. 

The end result is the same, they catch you and you will pay...

Read your own web site posting if that's not clear. Google the web and you will find many more sites which discuss this.


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 25, 2007)

February 22, 2007
Pair charged with violating Cuba travel ban
Criminal charges were filed in Fort Lauderdale federal court today accusing two Florida men of obtaining licenses for religious travel to Cuba on behalf of nonexistent churches and then illegally using the licenses to sell trips to Cuba to about 4,500 people, charging each a $250 fee. 
David Margolis of Fort Lauderdale and Victor Vazquez of Winter Garden were charged with conspiracy to violate Cuba-related travel regulations. Vazquez was also charged with making false statements in applications to obtain religious travel licenses to Cuba.

The case is the first criminal prosecution of violations for Cuba travel since the formation in October of a special team of federal and local law enforcement investigators assigned to root out breaches of the 43-year-old trade embargo against Cuba.

Senior federal law enforcement officials today credited the Cuban Sanctions Enforcement Task Force with discovering the alleged scheme attributed to Margolis and Vazquez.

Alex Acosta, the U.S. attorney in Miami, said the special task force and the case unveiled today demonstrate the commitment of the American government to tightly enforce the trade embargo against Cuba as a way to ''hasten'' democracy in the communist island.

Read the rest of the story at the Miami Herald.

----------------------------------------------

Congrats, they have now gone the criminal route too....

John Faeth


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 25, 2007)

These civil penalties stats and text were released in Written Testimony before Congress on 2/11/2002 by R. Richard Newcomb, Director, Office of Foreign Assets Control, United States Department of the Treasury 

I'm sure many more cases/penalities have occurred since:
---------------------------------------------------------------

C. Civil Penalties 

When an enforcement case is referred for civil penalty consideration, the administrative record either contains evidence of transactions involving Cuba or the prepenalty notice is premised upon a rebuttable presumption that an individual traveling to Cuba necessarily engaged in transactions involving Cuba. This presumption appears in OFAC's Regulations and may be rebutted by documentation establishing that the traveler was fully hosted by a Cuban or third-country national. If the presumption is not rebutted, a prepenalty notice with statement of rights and procedures attached is then issued alleging violations of the embargo. (Tab 9) In many instances, individuals request an informal settlement before OFAC issues a prepenalty notice. 

Typical penalty assessments for unauthorized travel range from $5,000 to $7,500, but the majority of cases are settled in amounts ranging from roughly $2,000 to $5,000, depending upon the circumstances. A number of prepenalty notice recipients, however, request administrative hearings, often with the assistance of public interest legal organizations. As previously mentioned, these cases are awaiting the funding and selection of Administrative Law Judges. 

I have appended a chart that depicts our Cuba travel enforcement case openings and referrals for civil penalty review, as well as the number of Cuba travel Prepenalty Notices issued, for the period of January 1996 through June 2001. (Tab 10) As shown, 4,535 travel cases were opened for investigation; 1,690 cases were referred for civil penalty review; and Prepenalty Notices were issued in 947 cases.  Again, many individuals request informal settlements with OFAC without the issuance of prepenalty notices. 

Conclusion 

At this time, OFAC devotes approximately 5% of its budget and 7 full-time equivalent positions to the administration and enforcement of restrictions involving travel to Cuba. In addition, Treasury's Office of the General Counsel devotes significant resources in support of these efforts. OFAC remains committed to carrying out the President's mandate that enforcement of the Cuba embargo be enhanced under current law. OFAC will continue to administer and enforce the restrictions on travel-related transactions involving Cuba in a manner that is timely, fair, and consistent with that law.


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## ralphd (Mar 25, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> February 22, 2007
> Pair charged with violating Cuba travel ban
> Criminal charges were filed in Fort Lauderdale federal court today accusing two Florida men of obtaining licenses for religious travel to Cuba on behalf of nonexistent churches and then illegally using the licenses to sell trips to Cuba to about 4,500 people, charging each a $250 fee.
> David Margolis of Fort Lauderdale and Victor Vazquez of Winter Garden were charged with conspiracy to violate Cuba-related travel regulations. Vazquez was also charged with making false statements in applications to obtain religious travel licenses to Cuba.
> ...



This is not  an example of the government prosecuting a person for going to Cuba. They were prosecuted for fraudulently obtaining licenses for going to Cuba and a charge was added on for making false statements.
This is apples and oranges.


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## ralphd (Mar 25, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> These civil penalties stats and text were released in Written Testimony before Congress on 2/11/2002 by R. Richard Newcomb, Director, Office of Foreign Assets Control, United States Department of the Treasury
> 
> I'm sure many more cases/penalities have occurred since:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> ...



Note this is civil court and not criminal court and it does not state that anyone has been prosecuted in criminal court. It also does not indicate anyone has actually been taken to court to date.
The write ups that were linked in my posts indicate that:
'   Many violators successfully avoid fines by contesting the notices, with the government backing down rather than putting the effort into prosecution and testing their restrictions in court. (The constitutionality of OFAC's "presumption of guilt" regarding spending money in Cuba has not been tested in the courts thus far.) Currently, the National Lawyers Guild and the Center for Constitutional Rights provide legal representation for U.S. citizens accused of violating these  '

What happened to the 10,000 cases prosecuted?

Charges for violating trade embargoes and crimes like you referenced above should be prosecuted.


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## ralphd (Mar 25, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> Hi Ralph,
> 
> You are SO off base it's rediculous, do a little research on the web and find out of the hundreds who got prosecuted each year, read some of the travel mags and you'll also learn of this.
> 
> John Faeth



Who is so off base?


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## Caladezi (Mar 25, 2007)

Way to go Ralph!!!


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 25, 2007)

Change hundreds who get "prosecuted" to hundreds who get "civilly processed" and the statement is quite correct.

Nitpick all you want. They catch you, and you have a hassle coming. What's so difficult to understand about that?


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## CatLovers (Mar 25, 2007)

elina said:


> OK, I am now confused...
> 
> We're going to Cuba in few months and we're Finnish citizens. However, we will fly back to Finland through New York where we will spend one night (actually after Cuba we will spend about 10 days in Mexico and then fly back to US). If they stamp our passport in Cuba can we have problems when returning to JFK and New York?
> 
> ...



Despite the fact that these restrictions apply to US citizens and corporations, it is in your best interest to ask that they not stamp your passport.  Over-zealous US officials have been known to get twisted up (translate: give you a hard time) if they see a Cuba stamp on your passport.


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## ralphd (Mar 25, 2007)

johnmfaeth said:


> Change hundreds who get "prosecuted" to hundreds who get "civilly processed" and the statement is quite correct.
> 
> Nitpick all you want. They catch you, and you have a hassle coming. What's so difficult to understand about that?



You seem to have gone from over 10,000 people prosecuted to hundreds getting hassled. And you want me to get my facts straight?

I think this thread has run the course.:zzz:


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## ralphd (Mar 25, 2007)

CatLovers said:


> Despite the fact that these restrictions apply to US citizens and corporations, it is in your best interest to ask that they not stamp your passport.  Over-zealous US officials have been known to get twisted up (translate: give you a hard time) if they see a Cuba stamp on your passport.



Yes, the Cuban immigration people will stamp a blank piece of paper which you can dispose of prior to your return home.

Never been to Cuba, but have read some writeups from the scuba travel providers in Mexico and Canada.


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## johnmfaeth (Mar 25, 2007)

http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/programs/cuba/cuba.shtml

Google for yourself and see, tons of stuff on the web, above is the governments main info page. Both the statement that hundreds are pursued every year and the over 10K to date are from web sites discussing this, some by the treasury and others elsewhere. 

You can try to poke holes in reality all you want. But you're still wrong.

Enough said by me, google for yourself or call your congressman....


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## Caladezi (Mar 25, 2007)

Then call Al Gore and ask him about global warming.  HA HA HA HA  HA!!!


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## Aldo (Mar 26, 2007)

bogey21 said:


> John - Here are "no facts" for you.  I am a US citizen and routinely go to Cuba via Cancun.  I use a Bank of Montreal Visa Card and have absolutely no problem.  Cuba is deliteful.  Two trips ago I bought a Cuba National Baseball Team hat MADE IN CHINA.  Go figure!!
> 
> GEORGE




Exactly.


They've got a chain of big stores here in the U.S. called "Walmarts," which has shelves FULL of stuff made in Communist China.  Walmarts donates HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars to American politicans from "both" parties, Republicans and Democrats...I say "both" simply to ameliorate any hard feelings among readers who can still discern any differences among this gang of multinationalist crooks.

Anyway, I can ride my bike 15 minutes to the Walmart, and buy all the garbage junk made in Communist China that I want.

But if I want to buy a fine Partagas cigar, I've got to go to Quebec to do that.

What gives?  It's stupid.  Don't tell me this situation is economic, or even ideological.

It's all about a bunch of crooked politicians who don't want to annoy a large voting block in South Florida.

So, Heck, yeah, go to Cuba, and enjoy yourself.

Don't let a bunch of crooked multinational gangsters in D.C. ruin a good vacation opportunity.


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