# Recorded Trust Documents



## dioxide45

You can access the recorded trust documents on the Orange County FL comptroller website. Includes actual unit information of what was conveyed to the trust.

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/web/

I have done the work for you and provided the document numbers. Just search by document number.

Trust Agreement: 20100149464 (You can also search just for this document, then the related resort notices are listed on the left hand side)

Notices adding points for each trust resort:
20100267160 - Oceana Palms
20100267159 - Canyon Villas
20100267158 - Ocean Watch
20100267157 - Maui Ocean Club
20100267156 - Willow Ridge Lodge
20100267155 - Newport Coast Villas
20100267154 - Timber Lodge
20100267153 - Ko'Olina
20100267152 - Kalanipu'u
20100267151 - Crystal Shores
20100267092 - Maui Ocean Club II
20100267091 - Grande Vista


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## potchak

I thought the trust documents would have said how many pts were available in total for the resort. Guess not. Supposedly one of the Customer Advocacy folks is supposed to get back to us and let us know how many pts are available for Timberlodge. We shall see.


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## kedler

dioxide45 said:


> You can access the recorded trust documents on the Orange County FL comptroller website. Includes actual unit information of what was conveyed to the trust.
> 
> http://or.occompt.com/recorder/web/
> 
> I have done the work for you and provided the document numbers. Just search by document number.
> 
> Trust Agreement: 20100149464 (You can also search just for this document, then the related resort notices are listed on the left hand side)
> 
> Notices adding points for each trust resort:
> 20100267160 - Oceana Palms
> 20100267159 - Canyon Villas
> 20100267158 - Ocean Watch
> 20100267157 - Maui Ocean Club
> 20100267156 - Willow Ridge Lodge
> 20100267155 - Newport Coast Villas
> 20100267154 - Timber Lodge
> 20100267153 - Ko'Olina
> 20100267152 - Kalanipu'u
> 20100267151 - Crystal Shores
> 20100267092 - Maui Ocean Club II
> 20100267091 - Grande Vista


Thanks for the information!


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## SueDonJ

VERY nice work, Dioxide, thanks!

How much should we be relying on the supposition that these units conveyed to the trust are the only units Marriott had available at the time it was set up?  These are obviously units from the resorts which have not sold out, right?  Well, as Shorty points out, there is no correlation between these and the total number of units at each resort.  As well, we have no idea how many units Marriott is holding at other resorts that are not sold-out, or how many deed-backs Marriott is holding at the sold-out resorts.  (I know there was a list of inventory at SurfWatch that my sales rep had two weeks before roll-out, and she also had at least one Barony unit that had been given back in an "equity trade-up.")

Isn't it possible that Marriott established the trust with the units it was holding at resorts which we knew were nowhere near sold-out, but that what's been conveyed doesn't represent Marriott's total holdings?

IOW, there are a lot of posts here that say the possibility of successful exchanges within this new system is severely limited because the inventory will be restricted to this published list of only a few resorts combined with any weeks deposited by Enrolled Owners for exchanges, any weeks exchanged by Owners for MRP and any weeks given by Owners to the Rental Program.  (As well, I believe like many others that Marriott can and will take Weeks deposited to II to satisfy Enrolled requests.)  But can't Marriott convey further units that they may have been holding at the time of roll-out to the trust any time?


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## dioxide45

potchak said:


> I thought the trust documents would have said how many pts were available in total for the resort. Guess not. Supposedly one of the Customer Advocacy folks is supposed to get back to us and let us know how many pts are available for Timberlodge. We shall see.



Looks like about 6.15 million points for Timber Lodge and over 40 million total. This was found in the individual notices.



SueDonJ said:


> VERY nice work, Dioxide, thanks!
> 
> How much should we be relying on the supposition that these units conveyed to the trust are the only units Marriott had available at the time it was set up?  These are obviously units from the resorts which have not sold out, right?  Well, as Shorty points out, there is no correlation between these and the total number of units at each resort.  As well, we have no idea how many units Marriott is holding at other resorts that are not sold-out, or how many deed-backs Marriott is holding at the sold-out resorts.  (I know there was a list of inventory at SurfWatch that my sales rep had two weeks before roll-out, and she also had at least one Barony unit that had been given back in an "equity trade-up.")
> 
> Isn't it possible that Marriott established the trust with the units it was holding at resorts which we knew were nowhere near sold-out, but that what's been conveyed doesn't represent Marriott's total holdings?
> 
> IOW, there are a lot of posts here that say the possibility of successful exchanges within this new system is severely limited because the inventory will be restricted to this published list of only a few resorts combined with any weeks deposited by Enrolled Owners for exchanges, any weeks exchanged by Owners for MRP and any weeks given by Owners to the Rental Program.  (As well, I believe like many others that Marriott can and will take Weeks deposited to II to satisfy Enrolled requests.)  But can't Marriott convey further units that they may have been holding at the time of roll-out to the trust any time?



I am also curious about resorts that were not in the trust but were not sold out. Harbour Lake is not conveyed to the trust and it definitely isn't sold out. I am not sure what Marriott's motives are behind not including all resorts in the trust that they owned weeks for. Also there were likely some foreclosed units and reacquired that were not conveyed.


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## taffy19

Dioxide45, thank you very much for posting this information. Since we own a fixed week/unit, I checked all the information in the PDF file and noticed that 11 condos were transferred in the Trust for the MOC Lahaina and Napili towers. If you add 11 X 52 then you get 572 ownership interests which is correct. However, I know for a fact that quite a few fixed weeks were still not sold at other units either that are not mentioned in the PDF file so are not in the trust.

What is Marriott doing with them if they no longer want to sell timeshare weeks? I wonder how this is for all the floating units too? Are they not in the trust either if all 52 weeks were not sold for a particular condo? 

PS.  I just compared all the unit numbers of the brochure that shows the fixed week/units at the two towers and not a single one is included in the trust.


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## windje2000

*I suggest a link to this thread be added to the Marriott FAQ sticky.*


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## GaryDouglas

The trust name used for Maui Ocean Club I & II in your attached links (First American Trust, FSB) matched my findings that I noted in this thread. It's easy to get a count of these each month from Hawaii's BOC site, although they seem to be a couple months behind.

After looking closer at the 36 deeds in the referenced thread, I realized that those weren't deeds but simply filed documents, which could have one or more deeds associated with it.  When I counted them all up, it was actually around 300 deeds.  I'll double check my count later, but that should be close.


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## hotcoffee

SueDonJ said:


> . . . IOW, there are a lot of posts here that say the possibility of successful exchanges within this new system is severely limited because the inventory will be restricted to this published list of only a few resorts combined with any weeks deposited by Enrolled Owners for exchanges, any weeks exchanged by Owners for MRP and any weeks given by Owners to the Rental Program.  (As well, I believe like many others that Marriott can and will take Weeks deposited to II to satisfy Enrolled requests.)  But can't Marriott convey further units that they may have been holding at the time of roll-out to the trust any time?



Why do you say that exchanges will be "severely limited" for points exchangers?  Discounting exchanges through non-afililated exchange companies, weeks exchangers will only have II to satisfy exchange requests.  Points exchangers will also have II, but they will also have the Trust, other points exchanges, and MRP trades.  Looks to be the other way around to me.

It was implied by my rep that there will be more additions to the Trust over time.


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## Whirl

So the first thing I checked was the Crystal Shores units to see if Marriott retained any ( I know they are sold out, as we considered buying) hoping to snag a Penthouse trade from developer inventory, but there are no Penthouse units in the Trust at this time.  I could have guessed that since I have never seen a 3BR available to reserve on MArriott.com, indicating to me that they do not have it to offer. I don't know how they manage their inventory, but I assume that the developer retained weeks are the ones that come up as avail for rent and for occasional exchange in II.

Rats! Will have to wait for someone to deposit it for points or II....what's the chance of that happening?...Ha Ha!


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## hotcoffee

iconnections said:


> Dioxide45, thank you very much for posting this information. Since we own a fixed week/unit, I checked all the information in the PDF file and noticed that 11 condos were transferred in the Trust for the MOC Lahaina and Napili towers. If you add 11 X 52 then you get 572 ownership interests which is correct. However, I know for a fact that quite a few fixed weeks were still not sold at other units either that are not mentioned in the PDF file so are not in the trust.



How did you know that the 572 were from the MOC Lahaina and Napili towers?  I was wondering whether the 260 or the 572 were from older or the newer towers.


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## SueDonJ

hotcoffee said:


> Why do you say that exchanges will be "severely limited" for points exchangers?  Discounting exchanges through non-afililated exchange companies, weeks exchangers will only have II to satisfy exchange requests.  Points exchangers will also have II, but they will also have the Trust, other points exchanges, and MRP trades.  Looks to be the other way around to me.
> 
> It was implied by my rep that there will be more additions to the Trust over time.



No, I think we're in agreement here.  Some folks are saying on TUG that Points exchangers will only have access to the inventory at the 11 resorts that are known to be conveyed to the Trust; you and I are in agreement that Marriott has access to other inventory to satisfy Points exchange requests and/or convey more inventory to the Trust.


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## taffy19

hotcoffee said:


> How did you know that the 572 were from the MOC Lahaina and Napili towers? I was wondering whether the 260 or the 572 were from older or the newer towers.


I got it from this PDF file that lists the Maui Ocean Club-Sequel. The condos in the trust are 6411, 6415, 8408, 8411, 8415, 3406, 3413, 8401, 8406, 8409 and 8413 x 52 weeks so a total of 572 ownership interests. I have a brochure that shows all the fixed unit numbers of both buildings and none of them are on this list so they must be the floating units in these two buildings. I don't know how many floating units there are but none of these condos had sold any weeks at all so there must be a lot of floating condos that have sold weeks but are not in the Trust. Maybe, I am confused? 

PS. I noticed that the link didn't work but you can get the information from post #1 for the resorts that are in the Trust as of that date.


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## dioxide45

GaryDouglas said:


> The trust name used for Maui Ocean Club I & II in your attached links (First American Trust, FSB) matched my findings that I noted in this thread. It's easy to get a count of these each month from Hawaii's BOC site, although they seem to be a couple months behind.



You should also be able to look up the information on the Orange County FL recorders website. Every time interests are conveyed to the trust, Marriott must record a notice. Orange County is a lot faster with recordings.


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## taffy19

dioxide45 said:


> You should also be able to look up the information on the Orange County FL recorders website. Every time interests are conveyed to the trust, Marriott must record a notice. Orange County is a lot faster with recordings.


I got it from your first post under 20100267157 - Maui Ocean Club. That was very helpful but not all the condos are in the trust, imho. Will they add the fixed unit/weeks later? If they are not going to sell weeks anymore, what will they do with these condos? I don't believe that all the floating condos are in the trust either except for the ones that have none of the weeks sold yet. Each condo listed has 52 weeks available.

Is it the same for other condos too at different resorts? Can you check it if you know the condo unit numbers?


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## hotcoffee

iconnections said:


> I got it from this PDF file that lists the Maui Ocean Club-Sequel. The condos in the trust are 6411, 6415, 8408, 8411, 8415, 3406, 3413, 8401, 8406, 8409 and 8413 x 52 weeks so a total of 572 ownership interests. I have a brochure that shows all the fixed unit numbers of both buildings and none of them are on this list so they must be the floating units in these two buildings. I don't know how many floating units there are but none of these condos had sold any weeks at all so there must be a lot of floating condos that have sold weeks but are not in the Trust. Maybe, I am confused?
> 
> PS. I noticed that the link didn't work but you can get the information from post #1 for the resorts that are in the Trust as of that date.



What I was wondering about is which number, the 572 or the 260, refers to just the MOC Lahaina and Napili towers.  I've never been there, but isn't that the newer of the two MOCs?


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## dioxide45

I am not sure why there are some units they didn't convey. In fact at Harbour Lake they didn't convey an entire resort. At MGV there are definitely partial units as only one week 1 unit is on the legal description of conveyed units.


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## Whirl

dioxide45 said:


> I am not sure why there are some units they didn't convey. In fact at Harbour Lake they didn't convey an entire resort. At MGV there are definitely partial units as only one week 1 unit is on the legal description of conveyed units.



Here's a crazy thought....Maybe they are actually trying to preserve a balance of points versus weeks inventory and will transition over time. May be they are thinking about reducing inequities to the weeks owners?  Just throwing out there.... I have no idea why, but it is as reasonable or speculative as any other theory out there.


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## taffy19

hotcoffee said:


> What I was wondering about is which number, the 572 or the 260, refers to just the MOC Lahaina and Napili towers. I've never been there, but isn't that the newer of the two MOCs?


This is the PDF I looked at earlier and it is the MOC Sequel for the 572 ownership interests.

20100267157 - Maui Ocean Club

This PDF seems to be individual weeks that are Reacquired. Are they foreclosures? I don't know. I saw a fixed week there too which may be a Platinum Plus week at the original building.   I am not familiar with the condo numbers there. I would ask Marriott, if you are curious. Let us know what they say.  

20100267092 - Maui Ocean Club II



dioxide45 said:


> You can access the recorded trust documents on the Orange County FL comptroller website. Includes actual unit information of what was conveyed to the trust.
> 
> http://or.occompt.com/recorder/web/
> 
> I have done the work for you and provided the document numbers. Just search by document number.
> 
> Trust Agreement: 20100149464 (You can also search just for this document, then the related resort notices are listed on the left hand side)
> 
> Notices adding points for each trust resort:
> 20100267160 - Oceana Palms
> 20100267159 - Canyon Villas
> 20100267158 - Ocean Watch
> 20100267157 - Maui Ocean Club
> 20100267156 - Willow Ridge Lodge
> 20100267155 - Newport Coast Villas
> 20100267154 - Timber Lodge
> 20100267153 - Ko'Olina
> 20100267152 - Kalanipu'u
> 20100267151 - Crystal Shores
> 20100267092 - Maui Ocean Club II
> 20100267091 - Grande Vista


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## GregT

This is a very interesting thread -- I don't yet grasp the full implications.

It does suggest that after all the properties were transferred into the Trust, that there were 42M points to sell for those properties.

Interesting, approx 4.7M of them are for MOC -- alot more than I thought.  And 6.1M are Ko Olina (approx twice as much 2BR Mountain views as 2BR OV). 

This does suggest that there is a ton of Hawaii properties available.  It appears that points users will find it very easy to get access to Hawaii, even if existing owners never redeem their weeks.

Hmmmm......


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## GregT

These are the points that seeded the Trust:

 6,712,500 	Ko Olina
 6,152,250 	Timberlodge
 5,292,750 	Oceana Palms
 5,005,250 	Crystal Shores
 4,314,750 	Newport Coast
 3,605,570 	MOC-Sequel
 3,529,500 	Kalanipu'u
 2,848,500 	Willow Ridge
 2,303,250 	Canyon Villas
 1,017,750 	MOC
 992,000 	Ocean Watch
 572,000 	Grand Vista
 42,346,070


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## taffy19

GregT said:


> This is a very interesting thread -- I don't yet grasp the full implications.
> 
> It does suggest that after all the properties were transferred into the Trust, that there were 42M points to sell for those properties.
> 
> Interesting, approx 4.7M of them are for MOC -- alot more than I thought. And 6.1M are Ko Olina (approx twice as much 2BR Mountain views as 2BR OV).
> 
> This does suggest that there is a ton of Hawaii properties available. It appears that points users will find it very easy to get access to Hawaii, even if existing owners never redeem their weeks.
> 
> Hmmmm......


I don't know if I understand the document right but it looks to me that Marriott is not going to sell point interests in the fixed week/oceanfront units at the MOC Villas at the Lahaina and Napili towers. What will happen to these timeshare condos? Will they be added to the trust later or will Marriott just rent them out or sell them still as fixed week/units? They said that they wouldn't.

Any opinions by the experts here? I will ask them when I talk to them again as I am pretty upset.  I did an II search this morning and didn't find any lock-off units available for next March.  Is the well dry already or am I too early or too late?


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## GregT

iconnections said:


> I don't know if I understand the document right but it looks to me that Marriott is not going to sell point interests in the fixed week/oceanfront units at the MOC Villas at the Lahaina and Napili towers. What will happen to these timeshare condos? Will they be added to the trust later or will Marriott just rent them out or sell them still as fixed week/units? They said that they wouldn't.
> 
> Any opinions by the experts here? I will ask them when I talk to them again as I am pretty upset.  I did an II search this morning and didn't find any lock-off units available for next March.  Is the well dry already or am I too early or too late?



I am guessing here, but I would suspect that this is the first slug of inventory that Marriott committed to the Trust, and that there is more coming.

I also didn't see any fixed weeks in here -- it is very possible that a second document will ultimately be filed that will place the final unsold inventory into the Trust, and that these were the units designated in/around March 2010.

Dioxide, can you teach me how you did the search and I'll keep searching to see if there are new additions to the Trust in the coming months?   It would be instructive for us to try to maintain a spreadsheet of where the inventory is.

As an example, there are a ton of Ko Olina 2BR Mountain properties available.   If/when Marriott introduces a Flexchange concept, I would think it likely that those might be bookable with discounted (and rented) points versus the expensive skimmed points.

Timberlodge appears to have alot of inventory across all seasons, so same concept is possible.

Other properties, it may truly be necessary to affect an exchange thru II -- and Marriott will probably offer 2BR Mountain View's at Ko Olina since they appear to have those units to burn.

Very interesting stuff.

Greg


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## hotcoffee

GregT said:


> This is a very interesting thread -- I don't yet grasp the full implications.
> 
> It does suggest that after all the properties were transferred into the Trust, that there were 42M points to sell for those properties.
> 
> Interesting, approx 4.7M of them are for MOC -- alot more than I thought.  And 6.1M are Ko Olina (approx twice as much 2BR Mountain views as 2BR OV).
> 
> This does suggest that there is a ton of Hawaii properties available.  It appears that points users will find it very easy to get access to Hawaii, even if existing owners never redeem their weeks.
> 
> Hmmmm......



This is exactly the point I have been making.  There is gold to be mined here for the points exchangers - not only in securing weeks at the three resorts on the list, but also via II when Marriott uses them to trade for II inventory.  Let's say that a points exchanger is trying to find a 2BR at Waiohai, but there are none in the internal inventory.  That does not mean that the exchange will not be satisfied because there might be one in II (either deposited or in a Request-first search).  The Marriott Club Manager can use a MOC or Ko Olina week to exchange for the Waiohai week.  Thus, a points exchange still gets his Waiohai week.  So, the abundance of Hawaii weeks in the Trust should really help the points exchanger.


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## hotcoffee

iconnections said:


> I don't know if I understand the document right but it looks to me that Marriott is not going to sell point interests in the fixed week/oceanfront units at the MOC Villas at the Lahaina and Napili towers. What will happen to these timeshare condos? Will they be added to the trust later or will Marriott just rent them out or sell them still as fixed week/units? They said that they wouldn't.



I've been told that the OF units at the MOC are sold out.  There were none in that initial batch for the Trust for that reason.  Perhaps you know otherwise.  I was also told that there are no GV weeks in the Trust because they also were sold out.  So, at least, initially, this first batch must all be OV.


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## dioxide45

GregT said:


> Dioxide, can you teach me how you did the search and I'll keep searching to see if there are new additions to the Trust in the coming months?   It would be instructive for us to try to maintain a spreadsheet of where the inventory is.
> 
> Greg



This was quite easy. Go to the Orange County comptrollers website here, then enter MVC in to the _Both Names _field. The search results return all of the documents that I linked to. There are a few other documents that came up in the search that were unrelated to MVC.


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## billymach4

Dioxide,

Just Marvelous! Brilliant!

Totally Speechless!

I just wish we could have stumbled across this in May. This would have added so much to the excitement.


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## taffy19

*Interesting!*



hotcoffee said:


> I've been told that the OF units at the MOC are sold out. There were none in that initial batch for the Trust for that reason. Perhaps you know otherwise. I was also told that there are no GV weeks in the Trust because they also were sold out. So, at least, initially, this first batch must all be OV.


On March 25 this year, there were:

13 fixed 3 BR units left at the Napili tower
71 fixed 2 BR units left at the Napili tower
06 fixed 3 BR units left at the Lahaina tower
63 fixed 2 BR units left at the Lahaina tower

I still have the inventory sheets they gave me from every presentation so I can look it up.  They were not in the prime season. I also had it for the floating units but may have thrown that sheet out. I sent the information by email to a friend, so will see if I still have that email and I will send it to you, if you want it.  It was from the same week.

They hardly sold any fixed ocean front units at the two towers from one year to the next as I kept track of it so I don't believe it. I would like to know the truth!

Several of my friends toured the resort and fixed units were no longer discussed. They have other plans with them, I believe and I would like to know what because it may affect our value. I would only enroll if it would protect our value because the next person may be able to enroll but the Resale Department (independent broker) told me that the answer is NO. Their documents are not even consistent so who do you believe?


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## dioxide45

billymach4 said:


> Dioxide,
> 
> Just Marvelous! Brilliant!
> 
> Totally Speechless!
> 
> I just wish we could have stumbled across this in May. This would have added so much to the excitement.



Had I found these in April or May, it would have answered one very big question in the speculation thread.

I work in an industry that gives me the knowledge of recorded documents. So once I looked at the exchange disclosure document and found the name of the trust, it didn't take me long to find the documents in a search.


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## hotcoffee

iconnections said:


> On March 25 this year, there were:
> 
> 13 fixed 3 BR units left at the Napili tower
> 71 fixed 2 BR units left at the Napili tower
> 06 fixed 3 BR units left at the Lahaina tower
> 63 fixed 2 BR units left at the Lahaina tower
> 
> I still have the inventory sheets they gave me from every presentation so I can look it up.  They were not in the prime season. I also had it for the floating units but may have thrown that sheet out. I sent the information by email to a friend, so will see if I still have that email and I will send it to you, if you want it.  It was from the same week.
> 
> They hardly sold any fixed ocean front units at the two towers from one year to the next as I kept track of it so I don't believe it. I would like to know the truth!
> 
> Several of my friends toured the resort and fixed units were no longer discussed. They have other plans with them, I believe and I would like to know what because it may affect our value. I would only enroll if it would protect our value because the next person may be able to enroll but the Resale Department (independent broker) told me that the answer is NO. Their documents are not even consistent so who do you believe?



Perhaps they simply did not put fixed weeks into the Trust because they do not fit in well with exchanges.  Maybe they are considered what the documentation refers to as "restricted use" weeks.  Based on the disclosure document, Marriott can use restricted use weeks for promotional purposes (or any other use they desire).  

I assume you own a fixed week?


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## taffy19

hotcoffee said:


> Perhaps they simply did not put fixed weeks into the Trust because they do not fit in well with exchanges. Maybe they are considered what the documentation refers to as "restricted use" weeks. Based on the disclosure document, Marriott can use restricted use weeks for promotional purposes (or any other use they desire).
> 
> I assume you own a fixed week?


Yes, we own a fixed week/unit but we got the invitation in the mail and the enrollment package is on the way so we are not excluded. I have to read again about the restricted use. There are some restrictions that I have noticed already but was going to double check one more time. We have time to decide and figure out what is best but my husband prefers to leave things alone so may end up doing that.

By the way, I found the email with the PDF file of the complete inventory for all units at the MOC for March 22. This includes fixed and floating weeks at the main building as well as the towers.


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## rudy

*Thanks!*



dioxide45 said:


> You can access the recorded trust documents on the Orange County FL comptroller website. Includes actual unit information of what was conveyed to the trust.
> 
> http://or.occompt.com/recorder/web/
> 
> I have done the work for you and provided the document numbers. Just search by document number.
> 
> Trust Agreement: 20100149464 (You can also search just for this document, then the related resort notices are listed on the left hand side)
> 
> Notices adding points for each trust resort:
> 20100267160 - Oceana Palms
> 20100267159 - Canyon Villas
> 20100267158 - Ocean Watch
> 20100267157 - Maui Ocean Club
> 20100267156 - Willow Ridge Lodge
> 20100267155 - Newport Coast Villas
> 20100267154 - Timber Lodge
> 20100267153 - Ko'Olina
> 20100267152 - Kalanipu'u
> 20100267151 - Crystal Shores
> 20100267092 - Maui Ocean Club II
> 20100267091 - Grande Vista



 Thanks for all your hard work in tracking down these documents and providing the link.  I have downloaded each document and will review as soon as possible.

Best Regards,

Rudy


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## kk0

dioxide45 said:


> You can access the recorded trust documents on the Orange County FL comptroller website. Includes actual unit information of what was conveyed to the trust.
> 
> http://or.occompt.com/recorder/web/
> 
> I have done the work for you and provided the document numbers. Just search by document number.
> 
> Trust Agreement: 20100149464 (You can also search just for this document, then the related resort notices are listed on the left hand side)
> 
> Notices adding points for each trust resort:
> 20100267160 - Oceana Palms
> 20100267159 - Canyon Villas
> 20100267158 - Ocean Watch
> 20100267157 - Maui Ocean Club
> 20100267156 - Willow Ridge Lodge
> 20100267155 - Newport Coast Villas
> 20100267154 - Timber Lodge
> 20100267153 - Ko'Olina
> 20100267152 - Kalanipu'u
> 20100267151 - Crystal Shores
> 20100267092 - Maui Ocean Club II
> 20100267091 - Grande Vista



Excellent job Dioxide. 
BTW how many points does the trust have in Grande Ocean,Surf Watch and Barony ?
Is it better to buy a resale at Oceanwatch (Myrtle Beach) owned by the trust versus the Hilton head trio of Barony, Grande Ocean, Surf Watch (not trust owned)?


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## dioxide45

kk0 said:


> Excellent job Dioxide.
> BTW how many points does the trust have in Grande Ocean,Surf Watch and Barony ?
> Is it better to buy a resale at Oceanwatch (Myrtle Beach) owned by the trust versus the Hilton head trio of Barony, Grande Ocean, Surf Watch (not trust owned)?



There are no HHI points in the trust.


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## kk0

dioxide45 said:


> There are no HHI points in the trust.


 In that case should one rather buy a HHI resale unit rather than a Oceanwatch which is trust owned ? 
  Interestingly, I was at the wine and cheese welcome at the Grande Ocean in front of the North Pool. A saleswoman came up to us and tried to tell us he the virtues of the points system. I politely declined but she was quite persistent. One owner (wealthy guy in his sixties) I spoke with signed up for the points system. It seems to me that he has a lot of cash to spare and he thought that the points gave him a good deal !  His take seems to be that we need to give marriott more leeway because they have done such awonderful job. I don't disagree with that statement but by the same token I am not willing to pay $ 30 K for a unit whose resale value is $18 K. Besides I think I am paying top dollar in maintenance fees every year.


----------



## dioxide45

kk0 said:


> In that case should one rather buy a HHI resale unit rather than a Oceanwatch which is trust owned ?
> Interestingly, I was at the wine and cheese welcome at the Grande Ocean in front of the North Pool. A saleswoman came up to us and tried to tell us he the virtues of the points system. I politely declined but she was quite persistent. One owner (wealthy guy in his sixties) I spoke with signed up for the points system. It seems to me that he has a lot of cash to spare and he thought that the points gave him a good deal !  His take seems to be that we need to give marriott more leeway because they have done such awonderful job. I don't disagree with that statement but by the same token I am not willing to pay $ 30 K for a unit whose resale value is $18 K. Besides I think I am paying top dollar in maintenance fees every year.



I don't think it really matters if you own at a trust resort vs. a non trust resort. I don't see any pluses or minuses to either. Though the only issue I have with HHI locations is that none of them have lock offs. If you are buying to use, then buy where you will travel. If you are buying to trade, I would highly recommend a lockoff capable resort.


----------



## kk0

My fear is that Marriott can take total control of the board at resorts where the trust has a significant amount of ownership. This afternoon I was at the owners meeting at the Grande Ocean. General manager Robert Spears was very honest and forthcoming. He (as expected) advocated the points program. According to him the trust had no points at Grande Ocean except for three bronze weeks.  
  He stated that MGO ownrers do not have to fear the trust taking a significant ownership in the near term.
My question to him was - if the the trust owns a lot of bronze units that not many people are willing to rent - - the trust will be in the hole for a lot of maintenance fees -- where is that money going to come from ? special assesments on the  participants  of points system? Can the trust go bankrupt ?


----------



## dioxide45

kk0 said:


> My fear is that Marriott can take total control of the board at resorts where the trust has a significant amount of ownership. This afternoon I was at the owners meeting at the Grande Ocean. General manager Robert Spears was very honest and forthcoming. He (as expected) advocated the points program. According to him the trust had no points at Grande Ocean except for three bronze weeks.
> He stated that MGO ownrers do not have to fear the trust taking a significant ownership in the near term.
> My question to him was - if the the trust owns a lot of bronze units that not many people are willing to rent - - the trust will be in the hole for a lot of maintenance fees -- where is that money going to come from ? special assesments on the  participants  of points system? Can the trust go bankrupt ?



Marriott is obviously subsidizing the trust MF with a cash reserve. There is no other way they could charge only $0.40 per point. The trust has millions of points but only a few hundred thousand are likely sold. So I am sure Marriott put aside a large reserve to fund the trust MF for however long they anticipate it would take to sell the bulk of the points.


----------



## dioxide45

It looks like Marriott is seeding the trust some more, though not allocating more points yet. There are a lot of Orlando units that have been deeded to the trust. And not just those that were in the original 11 resorts. Sabal Palms, Harbour Lake, and Cypress Harbour have had blocks of units deeded to the land trust.


----------



## hotcoffee

dioxide45 said:


> It looks like Marriott is seeding the trust some more, though not allocating more points yet. There are a lot of Orlando units that have been deeded to the trust. And not just those that were in the original 11 resorts. Sabal Palms, Harbour Lake, and Cypress Harbour have had blocks of units deeded to the land trust.



That would suggest that sales must be better than we think.  I cannot think of why they would go through the effort of putting more into the Trust unless they expected that they would soon need some more points in it.


----------



## dioxide45

hotcoffee said:


> That would suggest that sales must be better than we think.  I cannot think of why they would go through the effort of putting more into the Trust unless they expected that they would soon need some more points in it.



They appear to be reacquired weeks. So perhaps they are just conveying everything they acquire. They haven't filed a notice to allot more points to the trust. Only deeding more weeks in to it.


----------



## sparty

dioxide45 said:


> Though the only issue I have with HHI locations is that none of them have lock offs. If you are buying to use, then buy where you will travel. If you are buying to trade, I would highly recommend a lockoff capable resort.



Using II I don't think it's that big of a deal, I never deposited Barony unless I got an AC for my Oceanside Platinum.  So you get a good trade with Barony OS Platinum, you get an AC, and you avoid the lockoff fees.

With MVCD, the value is recognized in terms of the number of points.

In renting, the value is recognized in terms of the rental amount, consistently easy to rent at a good price.

I also own a non-lock off Special week  at Cypress because I don't put a premium value on lockoffs..

I do agree the most important consideration in value is the level of desire to go to your home resort. And I know a lot of people differ from me and value lockoffs very high..


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> It looks like Marriott is seeding the trust some more, though not allocating more points yet. There are a lot of Orlando units that have been deeded to the trust. And not just those that were in the original 11 resorts. Sabal Palms, Harbour Lake, and Cypress Harbour have had blocks of units deeded to the land trust.



Thanks for keeping up with this, dioxide, and good on you for adding the latest info to the established thread.  Maybe this thread will be the one place that we'll be able to find all the Trust inventory as we're trying to figure out how and why Marriott is able to feed the Exchange Company.

Nice work!


----------



## DanCali

hotcoffee said:


> I cannot think of why they would go through the effort of putting more into the Trust unless they expected that they would soon need some more points in it.



Because it can help them make exchanges with owners.


----------



## hotcoffee

DanCali said:


> Because it can help them make exchanges with owners.



It is possible that they have found that people who buy only points are tending to reserve in Florida more often that other places.  So, put more Florida in the Trust.  One thing for sure, I doubt that many of them are reserving Hawaii, given the amount of points it takes to get anything there..


----------



## dioxide45

*No Longer 11 Trust Resorts*

It looks like a lot of points were added to the MVC Trust on 10/8/2010. Over 20MM new points. Some resorts are listed several times because it appears they filed notice on developer and reaquired weeks seperatly.

You can find all of there at the Orange County Controllers website.

20100587033- Barony Beach Club 
20100587034- Crystal Shores 
20100587035- Cypress Harbour 
20100587036- Canyon Villas 
20100587037- Desert Springs Villas I 
20100587038- Desert Springs Villas II 
20100587039- Doral
20100587040- Fairway Villas
20100587041- Grande Chateau
20100587042- Grande Ocean 
20100589054- Grande Vista
20100589055- Harbour Club
20100589056- Heritage Club
20100589057- Harbour Lake
20100589058- Ko'Olina Beach Club
20100589059- Manor Club
20100589060- Manor Club Sequel
20100589061- Maui Ocean Club 
20100589062- Maui Ocean Club Lahaina and Napili Villas 
20100589063- Mountain Side 
20100589421- Newport Coast Villas 
20100589422- Ocean Pointe 
20100589423- Royal Palms 
20100589424- Sabal Palms
20100589425- Shadow Ridge
20100589426- Summit Watch
20100589427- Sunset Pointe
20100589428- Timber Lodge
20100589429- Canyon Villas
20100589430- Crystal Shores 
20100589945- Shadow Ridge II
20100589946- Timber Lodge
20100590223- Fairway Villas
20100590224- Grande Chateau
20100590225- Harbour Lake 
20100590226- Ko'Olina Beach Club
20100590227- Lakeshore Reserve 
20100590228- Maui Ocean Club Lahaina and Napili Villas
20100590229- Newport Coast Villas 
20100590230- Ocean Pointe 
20100590231- Oceana Palms
20100590232- Shadow Ridge
20100611050- Timber Lodge (Rerecording of 20100589946)

If someone else wants to go in and break out all of the points, help yourself.


----------



## GregT

[Deleted -- two posts following]


----------



## GregT

Very sorry about the poor formatting.............


Original Trust	

 6,712,500.........Ko Olina
 6,152,250.........Timberlodge
 5,292,750.........Oceana Palms
 5,005,250.........Crystal Shores
 4,314,750.........Newport Coast
 3,605,570.........MOC-Sequel
 3,529,500.........Kalanipu'u
 2,848,500.........Willow Ridge
 2,303,250.........Canyon Villas
 1,017,750.........MOC
 992,000............Ocean Watch
 572,000............Grand Vista

 42,346,070........Original Trust

 November 2010 Expansion 	

 69,750.............Barony Beach Club
 10,500.............Crystal Shores
 90,750.............Cypress Harbour
 40,250.............Canyon Villas
 16,000.............DSV I
 333,750............DSV II
 13,000..............Doral
 82,500..............Fairway Villas
 340,750.............Grand Chateau
 9,000................Grande Ocean
 202,750.............Grand Vista
 17,250............. Harbour Club
 7,500.................Heritage Club
 65,500...............Harbour Lake
 201,500............. Ko Olina
 30,000...............Manor Club
 32,000...............Manor Club Sequel
 1,393,000...........MOC
 7,500.................MOC - Sequel (Lahaina and Napili)
 68,500...............Mountain Side
 743,750 .............Newport Coast Villas
 68,500................Ocean Point
 35,000................Royal Palms
 39,000................Sabal Palms
 56,000................Shadow Ridge
 45,000................Summit Watch
 44,250................Sunset Point
 222,750..............Timber Lodge
 762,000..............Canyon Villas
 3,005,500............Crystal Shores
 1,388,000............Shadow Ridge II
 27,500................Fairway Villas
 1,037,500............Grande Chateau
 172,500..............Harbour Lake
 2,294,750............Ko Olina
 153,750............. Lakeshore Reserve
 739,000............. MOC - Sequel (Lahaina and Napili)
 3,584,500............Newport Coast Villas
 2,500..................Ocean Point
 413,250..............Oceana Palms
 31,750...............Shadow Ridge
 4,647,750...........Timber Lodge

 22,546,250............November Expansion

 64,892,320.............Total Trust


----------



## GregT

All, sorry for 3 posts in a row (and the bad formatting)

Total points (largest to smallest)

Timberlodge...............11,022,750 
Ko Olina......................9,208,750 
Newport Coast Villas.....8,643,000 
Crystal Shores.............8,021,250 
Oceana Palms..............5,706,000 
MOC-Sequel................4,352,070 
Kalanipu'u...................3,529,500     (Kauai Lagoons)
Canyon Villas..............3,105,500 
Willow Ridge................2,848,500 
MOC..........................2,410,750 
Shadow Ridge..............1,475,750 
Grande Chateau...........1,378,250 
Ocean Watch................992,000 
Grand Vista...................774,750 
DSV II..........................333,750 
Harbour Lake.................238,000 
Lakeshore Reserve..........153,750 
Fairway Villas.................110,000 
Cypress Harbour...............90,750 
Ocean Point....................71,000 
Barony Beach Club............69,750 
Mountain Side..................68,500 
Summit Watch.................45,000 
Sunset Point...................44,250 
Sabal Palms.....................39,000 
Royal Palms.....................35,000 
Manor Club Sequel............32,000 
Manor Club.....................30,000 
Harbour Club...................17,250 
DSV I............................16,000 
Doral.............................13,000 
Grande Ocean.................. 9,000 
Heritage Club.................. 7,500


Edited to add:  identify Kauai Lagoons


----------



## LAX Mom

Which resort is Kalanipu'u? 
I'm not familiar with that location.


----------



## dioxide45

LAX Mom said:


> Which resort is Kalanipu'u?
> I'm not familiar with that location.



Kauai Lagoons?


----------



## siberiavol

Many of the Hilton Head properties are coming from the homeowners association or the "master in equity". That is at least one title for the person that handles foreclosures in South Carolina.


----------



## hotcoffee

That is good news for us DC members because we are likely going to see a lot of those get into the exchange pool.  

Looks like a lot of DC people are going to be going to California and Hawaii in the upcoming years.  Its hard to believe all of that MOC is in there.  And, man-o-man, is that a ton of Ko Olina inventory or what?

It would be nice to be able to break down the seasonal resorts in the list to their seasons.  I'd still like to see more Hilton Head weeks getting in there.

No Caribbean yet.


----------



## Whirl

hotcoffee said:


> That is good news for us DC members because we are likely going to see a lot of those get into the exchange pool.
> 
> Looks like a lot of DC people are going to be going to California and Hawaii in the upcoming years.  Its hard to believe all of that MOC is in there.  And, man-o-man, is that a ton of Ko Olina inventory or what?
> 
> It would be nice to be able to break down the seasonal resorts in the list to their seasons.  I'd still like to see more Hilton Head weeks getting in there.
> 
> No Caribbean yet.





However, as I posted in another thread....the foreclosures that seem to be getting into the trust ( at least for Hilton Head, which I try to follow) are almost ALL non-prime weeks.   The prime weeks and views seem to be being re-sold by Marriott as legacy weeks, so this will not be providing opportunity for anyone who plans to try to trade into a prime summer Hilton Head week. 

JMO.


----------



## GregT

hotcoffee said:


> That is good news for us DC members because we are likely going to see a lot of those get into the exchange pool.
> 
> *Looks like a lot of DC people are going to be going to California and Hawaii in the upcoming years.  Its hard to believe all of that MOC is in there.  And, man-o-man, is that a ton of Ko Olina inventory or what?*
> 
> It would be nice to be able to break down the seasonal resorts in the list to their seasons.  I'd still like to see more Hilton Head weeks getting in there.
> 
> No Caribbean yet.



This was exactly my reaction to the list -- I am happy to see the quantity of Ko Olina in the trust.  The number of Ko Olina points in the trust is (roughly) equivalent to almost 40 entire units, 52 weeks per year.  That's alot of inventory.

I'm curious if this will ever make it to the 50% off specials that they appear to be running every 6 weeks ---- a 50% special for Ko Olina in a shoulder season would be 1,600 points for a 1BR OV week, 1,350 points for a 1BR MV.  That would certainly be a good points deal.

Best to all,

Greg


----------



## hotcoffee

GregT said:


> The number of Ko Olina points in the trust is (roughly) equivalent to almost 40 entire units, 52 weeks per year.  That's alot of inventory.
> 
> I'm curious if this will ever make it to the 50% off specials that they appear to be running every 6 weeks ---- a 50% special for Ko Olina in a shoulder season would be 1,600 points for a 1BR OV week, 1,350 points for a 1BR MV.  That would certainly be a good points deal. . . .



Using your numbers, let's assume Ko Olina has over 2000 weeks of various types in the Trust.  Add to that the amount of MOC in there.  And to that the amount of Kauai Lagoons.  Going to Hawaii is not cheap.  Are there enough DC members willing to fly to Hawaii each year to maintain full (or nearly full) occupancy?  Even using some of it for specials might not get them full occupancy every week of the year.  I suspect that they will have to eventually dump some of it into II.


----------



## rickxylon

The problem with all of these points is that we don't know which weeks they are for. I would guess there are not very many platinum weeks.


----------



## SueDonJ

rickxylon said:


> The problem with all of these points is that we don't know which weeks they are for. I would guess there are not very many platinum weeks.



Sure we do, or at least we can figure it out by clicking on the various links that dioxide has provided.  For example, click on the first link in Post #46 and scroll through the pages.  On page 1 of that filing you can see that a total 69,750 points from Barony Beach units has been conveyed to the Trust.  On pages 6 and 7 there's a chart called "Chart C Derivations" where you learn that those points represent a total of 53 Weeks; the Use Period column is where you find that 29 of the Weeks are Bronze and 24 are Silver.

FWIW, Barony Beach owners were asked to vote at the Annual Meeting (10/29/10 - no results yet) whether or not the HOA can implement a non-judicial foreclosure process, which I imagine will make it easier for Marriott to convey more interests to the Trust.  Weren't there other resorts this year that brought the same issue up for a vote?  I think I remember reading it here on TUG ...

Dioxide, once again thanks so much for your efforts here.  Nice work!


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> FWIW, Barony Beach owners were asked to vote at the Annual Meeting (10/29/10 - no results yet) whether or not the HOA can implement a non-judicial foreclosure process, which I imagine will make it easier for Marriott to convey more interests to the Trust.  Weren't there other resorts this year that brought the same issue up for a vote?  I think I remember reading it here on TUG ...



Yes. Both of our Florida resorts have this on the ballot.


----------



## hotcoffee

rickxylon said:


> The problem with all of these points is that we don't know which weeks they are for. I would guess there are not very many platinum weeks.



I was referring to Hawaii in my previous post.  So that is not an issue.  The SC weeks in there are all winter weeks.  Not surprising.  Hopefully, by the time I will be interested in exchanging into one of them, they will have some deposits available.  I doubt we will see any added to the Trust.


----------



## dioxide45

hotcoffee said:


> Using your numbers, let's assume Ko Olina has over 2000 weeks of various types in the Trust.  Add to that the amount of MOC in there.  And to that the amount of Kauai Lagoons.  Going to Hawaii is not cheap.  Are there enough DC members willing to fly to Hawaii each year to maintain full (or nearly full) occupancy?  Even using some of it for specials might not get them full occupancy every week of the year.  I suspect that they will have to eventually dump some of it into II.



I agree. There are not enough DC members to absorb all of the unsold inventory. Given the cost of many of the weeks, there will be plenty to be deposited for very many years.


----------



## dioxide45

hotcoffee said:


> It would be nice to be able to break down the seasonal resorts in the list to their seasons.there.



If you have a spare month or so, have at it.  The information is all there in the links.


----------



## SueDonJ

hotcoffee said:


> I was referring to Hawaii in my previous post.  So that is not an issue.  The SC weeks in there are all winter weeks.  Not surprising.  Hopefully, by the time I will be interested in exchanging into one of them, they will have some deposits available.  I doubt we will see any added to the Trust.



As long as owners convert their Weeks to DC Points, deposit their Weeks with II, exchange them for MR Points or give them to Marriott for rentals, then there will be inventory available for DC exchanges.  On the first day we could make DC reservations I got a 6-day stay at Grande Ocean for next June (Plat season, and could have had the 7-day Week if I wanted it.)

But I do agree with you that it will be nice to eventually see some Gold/Plat HHI Weeks conveyed to the Trust.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> As long as owners convert their Weeks to DC Points, deposit their Weeks with II, exchange them for MR Points or give them to Marriott for rentals, then there will be inventory available for DC exchanges.  On the first day we could make DC reservations I got a 6-day stay at Grande Ocean for next June (Plat season, and could have had the 7-day Week if I wanted it.)
> 
> But I do agree with you that it will be nice to eventually see some Gold/Plat HHI Weeks conveyed to the Trust.



I think Marriott will end up counting on the enrolled owners depositing inventory to the MVC Exchange Company rather than putting prime weeks in the trust. I think Marriott will continue to sell prime weeks in HHI as weeks. Either those acquired from reacquires or as resales for owners. They did this with a couple prime ski weeks not long ago.

There is just too much profit to be made reselling these as weeks vs placing them in a trust already seeded with lots of points.

Points are points when Marriott sells them. Going back to the early and even prediction threads this was heavily discussed. Marriott will sell the dream but in the long run may only be able to deliver the nightmare if all the trust has is dog weeks.

Marriott will rely heavily on enrolled owners and after a few years will have enough data to reliably predict what to expect to be deposited each year.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> I think Marriott will end up counting on the enrolled owners depositing inventory to the MVC Exchange Company rather than putting prime weeks in the trust.
> 
> Points are points when Marriott sells them. Marriott will sell the dream but in the long run may only be able to deliver the nightmare if all the trust has is dog weeks.
> 
> Marriott will rely heavily on enrolled owners and after a few years will have enough data to reliably predict what to expect to be deposited each year.



I agree with each of the points above -- however, I would be surprised if Marriott didn't also have some form of on-going, permanent, search in II looking for Hilton Head summer weeks/or similar high demand week (and offering Ko Olina in exchange?  they have enough of them?).   

If structured properly, Marriott would get the HH/Plat+ property and give up something less scarce.

Time will tell....but they aren't leaving much on the table, they must have considered this.

Best,

Greg


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning...


If MVCD snags some HHI summer weeks from II using KOLINA or other trust inventory as bait then gives these unit to DC members for points, is this not a violation of the "renting" restriction on II exchanges.

MVCD would be renting/selling these units for currency, not "$$$ but points"

looking for anyone's thoughts on this logic...


----------



## dioxide45

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> 
> If MVCD snags some HHI summer weeks from II using KOLINA or other trust inventory as bait then gives these unit to DC members for points, is this not a violation of the "renting" restriction on II exchanges.
> 
> MVCD would be renting/selling these units for currency, not "$$$ but points"
> 
> looking for anyone's thoughts on this logic...



I am sure that Marriott is not a member in the same way everyone else is members. Once they control the inventory, they can probably do just about anything they want with it, Re-exchange or rent.


----------



## windje2000

GregT said:


> I agree with each of the points above -- however, I would be surprised if Marriott didn't also have some form of on-going, permanent, search in II looking for Hilton Head summer weeks/or similar high demand week (and offering Ko Olina in exchange?  they have enough of them?).
> 
> If structured properly, Marriott would get the HH/Plat+ property and give up something less scarce.
> 
> Time will tell....but they aren't leaving much on the table, they must have considered this.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Dclub may well be 'first among equals' in trading, but if the weeks trades they are making with II are not equal-in equal-out, then the legacies are screwed.

I don't think II would put up with that.  Integrity (and the long term contracts) are their intangible assets. Their most formidable weapon is 'just say no.'  

If they get replaced, it will be the canary in the coal mine.



dioxide45 said:


> I am sure that Marriott is not a member in the same way everyone else is members. Once they control the inventory, they can probably do just about anything they want with it, Re-exchange or rent.



No question about it.  "Some pigs are more equal than others" - George Orwell.  

As long as the program is administered fairly from all perspectives, points owners have every right to as much access to inventory as they paid for.

That will, of course, compete with my interests, as would the interests of every new owner having my trading power or better competing in any exchange company (including II) for a finite supply of inventory.


----------



## GregT

windje2000 said:


> Dclub may well be 'first among equals' in trading, but if the weeks trades they are making with II are not equal-in equal-out, then the legacies are screwed.




I think in my example, a Ko Olina for Hilton Head may be veiwed by II as an equal trade (in whatever their trade power mechanism is?)    

If scarcity determines trade power, and if Ko Olina 2BR's are scarce to II (because owners split them and deposit them) then a Ko Olina 2BR (traded by Marriott) may be very powerful in II's eyes?  I also think Marriott knows the II trading power formula as well as anyone and will know what weeks to offer to be able to get the needed week from II?

I'm speculating of course, but I think just because Marriott has a load of inventory at a certain property won't affect that property's value to II (especially if Marriott is careful about how it makes its inventory available to II)?

Thoughts?


----------



## windje2000

GregT said:


> I think in my example, a Ko Olina for Hilton Head may be veiwed by II as an equal trade (in whatever their trade power mechanism is?)
> 
> If scarcity determines trade power, and if Ko Olina 2BR's are scarce to II (because owners split them and deposit them) then a Ko Olina 2BR (traded by Marriott) may be very powerful in II's eyes?  I also think Marriott knows the II trading power formula as well as anyone and will know what weeks to offer to be able to get the needed week from II?
> 
> I'm speculating of course, but I think *just because Marriott has a load of inventory at a certain property won't affect that property's value to II* (especially if Marriott is careful about how it makes its inventory available to II)?
> 
> Thoughts?



Trading power ("TP") as I understand it is calculated by a 'black box' with multiple inputs (view, size, age, week, etc.) and weights to those inputs that ultimately derives something equivalent to a score.  All deposits get a score.

Since II states the 'request with the highest TP is first in line to get the desired week', it's axiomatic that supply and demand clearly is reflected.  Just because Marriott owns a boat load doesn't affect its value/trading power.  

If Marriott adds a boat load of inventory to II, it should make it easier to get a trade, all else staying the same.  Whether or not adding supply materially changes the score at which supply and demand intersect depends on whether or not there are lots of high TP requests chasing that inventory.

EDITED TO ADD:  Marriott may be able to make an educated guess about the TP formula, but they don't have the request (supply/demand) data.


----------



## hotcoffee

GregT said:


> I think in my example, a Ko Olina for Hilton Head may be veiwed by II as an equal trade (in whatever their trade power mechanism is?)
> 
> If scarcity determines trade power, and if Ko Olina 2BR's are scarce to II (because owners split them and deposit them) then a Ko Olina 2BR (traded by Marriott) may be very powerful in II's eyes?  I also think Marriott knows the II trading power formula as well as anyone and will know what weeks to offer to be able to get the needed week from II?
> 
> I'm speculating of course, but I think just because Marriott has a load of inventory at a certain property won't affect that property's value to II (especially if Marriott is careful about how it makes its inventory available to II)?
> 
> Thoughts?



Back at the beginning of the program, there were a lot of discussions about Marriott's ability to make II trades.  Now, their having a boat load of Hawaii inventory for those trades, I am once again curious as to whether Marriott will bulk-deposit surplus Hawaii weeks or use them for II trades.

I am also curious about whether VOAs can dynamically scan available II weeks when we call them to elect points for an exchange.  There might well be a request-first search going on in II that we would not be aware of that has a summer Hilton Head week trying to get a Hawaii week.  Bingo.  The VOA takes the HH week and gives the searcher a Ko Olina week.  We would never know where she got the HH week from.  That could be powerful for DC members.


----------



## windje2000

hotcoffee said:


> Back at the beginning of the program, there were a lot of discussions about Marriott's ability to make II trades.  Now, their having a boat load of Hawaii inventory for those trades, I am once again curious as to whether Marriott will bulk-deposit surplus Hawaii weeks or use them for II trades.
> 
> I am also curious about whether VOAs can dynamically scan available II weeks when we call them to elect points for an exchange.  There might well be a request-first search going on in II that we would not be aware of that has a summer Hilton Head week trying to get a Hawaii week.  Bingo.  The VOA takes the HH week and gives the searcher a Ko Olina week.  We would never know where she got the HH week from.  That could be powerful for DC members.



I don't think II would give Marriott quite that much access.  If they did and it became public, II might have to give that same level of access to others.

I think what would happen is that DClub puts in a request-first search for HHI using Ko Olina, or maybe even a list of appropriate properties.  II then makes the match with the other side of the trade.  

Who knows, II's software may be sophisticated enough to identify and execute a three player trade [A-->B;  B-->C;  C-->A] or even more.


----------



## hotcoffee

windje2000 said:


> I don't think II would give Marriott quite that much access. . . .


 
Maybe II would not, but remember the request-first search is a Marriott week to start with.  Do they know that one of their weeks is being used for an II search?  I don't know, but it is not as if they know about a Starwood resort involved in a search.  (Come to think of it, Starwood is rumored to control what an owner can deposit, aren't they?)



windje2000 said:


> . . . . Who knows, II's software may be sophisticated enough to identify and execute a three player trade [A-->B;  B-->C;  C-->A] or even more.



If they are all Marriotts perhaps so.  But that would require the same level of knowledge as my original theory, would it not?


----------



## GregT

windje2000 said:


> I think what would happen is that DClub puts in a request-first search for HHI using Ko Olina, or maybe even a list of appropriate properties.  II then makes the match with the other side of the trade.



This is much better said than what I fumbled with in my post #65 -- and this is exactly what I think Marriott should (and will) do.

They should consider those highly desired weeks (MFC, HH, Waiohai) and put it request-first searches, and offer the (plentiful to Marriott) Trust weeks in exchange, like Ko Olina.

In this manner, if someone were to deposit a summer HH, Marriott is first in line with the request and has offered a high (enough) powered trader for it.

They need the inventory, so why not put in a request-first with the Ko Olina for the HH?   This is a reason why I think it will be very tough for a traditional II trader -- even with a strong property -- to compete with Marriott for that rare II deposit since Marriott will be earlier in line.

All speculation, true, but it's in their best interest to have inventory.

Best,

Greg


----------



## windje2000

hotcoffee said:


> Maybe II would not, but remember the request-first search is a Marriott week to start with.  Do they know that one of their weeks is being used for an II search?  Only if II told them, which I doubt.  II had no reason to tell them and Marriott never cared.  That may have changed with DClub.  It might be worth it to check II's privacy policy to see if that's addressed.
> 
> I don't know, but it is not as if they know about a Starwood resort involved in a search.  (Come to think of it, Starwood is rumored to control what an owner can deposit, aren't they?)  I don't know much about Starwood, but I believe that's correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows, II's software may be sophisticated enough to identify and execute a three player trade [A-->B; B-->C; C-->A] or even more.
> 
> 
> 
> If they are all Marriotts perhaps so.  But that would require the same level of knowledge as my original theory, would it not?  Just speculation on my part, but II might well have the capability of identifying and executing a three player trade.  Its doubtful that Marriott does.  They don't need that capability with a points based system.
Click to expand...


I am guessing VOA's see the entire Marriott corporate II trading account, but other than that, little more than we see.


----------



## hotcoffee

I am hoping that the DC program will end up giving a preference in II for DC members using points for exchanges.  Non-enrollees will not like that much; but it is the reality of situation.  The DC program is the future.  I cannot imagine them scrapping it at this point.  They need to make their DC members happy.  After all, the skim damaged the program before it even got started.  Making sure that DC members get their desired exchanges should be one of their highest priorities.  If exchanges end up not being easier through DC than through II, then the program in my view will be a failure.


----------



## DanCali

hotcoffee said:


> I am hoping that the DC program will end up giving a preference in II for DC members using points for exchanges.



That will be the day ALL weeks owners should start using request first, and only request first.


----------



## taffy19

hotcoffee said:


> I am hoping that the DC program will end up giving a preference in II for DC members using points for exchanges. Non-enrollees will not like that much; but it is the reality of situation. The DC program is the future. I cannot imagine them scrapping it at this point. They need to make their DC members happy. After all, the skim damaged the program before it even got started. Making sure that DC members get their desired exchanges should be one of their highest priorities. If exchanges end up not being easier through DC than through II, then the program in my view will be a failure.


If this is the case, what will happen to the people who join the DCEP but do not want to use points? They mainly joined to save on the fees and want to continue exchanging weeks through II. How would they feel about it? After all, their big spiel still is that nothing will change if you continue using II but this would change the program if less weeks will become available for the Legacy week owners in the new plan as well as for us who do not join the program.  Do you mean this to happen to the new trust point buyers and not for the Legacy week owners who enroll in the DCEP?

I also believe that, once most Legacy weeks owners have joined the new DCEP, these old fees will return again but less expensive than they are now. They all seem to do it.


----------



## windje2000

hotcoffee said:


> I am hoping that the DC program will end up giving a preference in II for DC members using points for exchanges.



I'm not.  But I can understand that you want to get something for the money you spent to enroll.



hotcoffee said:


> Non-enrollees will not like that much; but it is the reality of situation.  The DC program is the future.  I cannot imagine them scrapping it at this point.  They need to make their DC members happy.  After all, the skim damaged the program before it even got started.  Making sure that DC members get their desired exchanges should be one of their highest priorities.  *If exchanges end up not being easier through DC than through II, then the program in my view will be a failure.*



Exactly right



DanCali said:


> That will be the day ALL weeks owners should start using request first, and only request first.



Exactly right - - I'm sure II came to exactly the same conclusion -- it would really throw a monkey wrench into their business.


----------



## hotcoffee

DanCali said:


> That will be the day ALL weeks owners should start using request first, and only request first.



"Preference" might have been a poor choice of words.  "Advantage" might have been better.  The theoried request-first search on behalf of DC members offering Ko Olina or MOC weeks would give those searches a lot of clout - more than a lot of Marriott weeks owners at lesser resorts.

I don't know if your request-first searches would make much difference in that regard.  I assume two request-first searches can satisfy one-another.  Cascading satisfactions of request-first searches might also happen.  As long as one of the searches is looking for Ko Olina or MOC, there is a pretty good likelihood of success when the week offered is at those resorts.

Offering a Hawaiian week in a Marriott II search was what I had in mind when I used the term "preference".


----------



## DanCali

hotcoffee said:


> I don't know if your request-first searches would make much difference in that regard.



It would matter in the sense that your proposal to give DC enrollees an advantage in II over weeks owners would create an "us" against "them" atmosphere. Why should your points be worth more than my week? And, in that atmosphere, there is no way I'd be giving up my week without me getting my exchange too. In fact, I'd be just better off rent swapping without paying the II membership fee.


----------



## hotcoffee

DanCali said:


> It would matter in the sense that your proposal to give DC enrollees an advantage in II over weeks owners would create an "us" against "them" atmosphere. Why should your points be worth more than my week? And, in that atmosphere, there is no way I'd be giving up my week without me getting my exchange too. In fact, I'd be just better off rent swapping without paying the II membership fee.



Why would it do that?  The advantage is that it potentially elevates a person's regular week to a higher value trade (i.e., the trade is now a Hawaiian week rather than what the person actually owned).  The II exchanger who wanted the Hawaiian week gets his exchange also.  So, no one actually loses. It just gives the DC member a higher probability of a successful exchange.  Successful exchanges is what this program is all about.

Also, I think that there already is a "us" vs. "them" atmosphere.  You can see it here on TUG.  It is almost like two countercultures exist here.  Those who start threads with positive info or issues about points, and those who are clearly hostile to the program.


----------



## windje2000

hotcoffee said:


> Why would it do that?  The advantage is that it potentially elevates a person's regular week to a higher value trade (i.e., the trade is now a Hawaiian week rather than what the person actually owned).  The II exchanger who wanted the Hawaiian week gets his exchange also.  So, no one actually loses. It just gives the DC member a higher probability of a successful exchange.  Successful exchanges is what this program is all about.
> 
> Also, I think that there already is a "us" vs. "them" atmosphere.  You can see it here on TUG.  It is almost like two countercultures exist here.  *Those who start threads with positive info or issues about points, and those who are clearly hostile to the program.*



Same as there are those who like II and those who despise II.

Opinions vary.  

Always have.  Always will.

But 





hotcoffee said:


> . . . hoping that the DC program will end up giving a preference in II for DC members using points for exchanges.



is guaranteed to create controversy.


----------



## hotcoffee

windje2000 said:


> But
> 
> ". . . hoping that the DC program will end up giving a preference in II for DC members using points for exchanges."
> 
> is guaranteed to create controversy.



Of course, I doubt that any of us will know what really happens below the covers.  A DC member goes on a waitlist for a summer Hilton Head and gets it.  Where did the week come from?


----------



## dioxide45

hotcoffee said:


> I am hoping that the DC program will end up giving a preference in II for DC members using points for exchanges.



In the effort to keep this thread off topic.... I don't think enrollees can use points to make Marriott exchanges in II. If that were the case, it would be cheaper in many cases to exchange points in II vs DC.


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> In the effort to keep this thread off topic.... I don't think enrollees can use points to make Marriott exchanges in II. If that were the case, it would be cheaper in many cases to exchange points in II vs DC.



It wouldn't surprise me if this is another case of Trust Points > Legacy Points.

But the same holds true for Trust Points, no? (Trust) points can often do better exchanging points in II than through the DC.


----------



## DanCali

hotcoffee said:


> So, no one actually loses. It just gives the DC member a higher probability of a successful exchange.  Successful exchanges is what this program is all about.



Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but there seems to be a contradiction here. If a DC member would get a higher probability of a successful exchange (compared to current probability), wouldn't that come at the expense of someone (weeks owners) who now would get a lower probability due to the preference you are advocating? In fact, you yourself said that:



hotcoffee said:


> ...Non-enrollees will not like that much; but it is the reality of situation...



So how did we now get to "no one actually loses?"


----------



## hotcoffee

dioxide45 said:


> In the effort to keep this thread off topic.... I don't think enrollees can use points to make Marriott exchanges in II. If that were the case, it would be cheaper in many cases to exchange points in II vs DC.



Presumably, you could combine Trust points and enrolled points for an II exchange.  Also, Marriott can use II to get an exchange for a waitlisted DC member.


----------



## dioxide45

hotcoffee said:


> Presumably, you could combine Trust points and enrolled points for an II exchange.  Also, Marriott can use II to get an exchange for a waitlisted DC member.



But trust points can only exchange for non Marriott weeks in II also. If a points owner or converter wants Marriott time, they need to pull from the points pool. Marriott may go to II for those weeks, but a points owner/converter can't use the II point chart in the II Buyers Guide to exchange for Marriott weeks through II.


----------



## wof45

this is an interesting thread, and there are some signs that Marriott is already reacting to some of the ideas to beat them.

I believe that we are seeing Marriott not dumping future weeks in II, and are now holding them -- perhaps until 60 days out.

That would mean that in the future we couldn't use II to exchange back into Marriott unless someone actually deposits their week into II.

This strategy would make a lot more inventory available to the DC, but not for deposited Marriott weeks.  You could still use all of the old strategies, but would just find a lot less available in II until 60-90 days.


----------



## DanCali

wof45 said:


> That would mean that in the future we couldn't use II to exchange back into Marriott unless someone actually deposits their week into II.



Isn't this how it's supposed to work anyway? If developer inventory is what makes an exchange system successful it is bound to implode. 

I don't believe II exchange success (at least not "like for like" exchanges) is dependent on developer deposits. I can't say the same for the DC given that the primary owner of the Trust is Marriott...


----------



## wof45

it might just be for us, since we only trade into MVCI using II.  We list others on our requests, but it has been the MVCI that we get confirmed.


----------



## SueDonJ

DanCali said:


> Isn't this how it's supposed to work anyway? If developer inventory is what makes an exchange system successful it is bound to implode.
> 
> I don't believe II exchange success (at least not "like for like" exchanges) is dependent on developer deposits. I can't say the same for the DC given that the primary owner of the Trust is Marriott...



fwiw, I think an exchanger will meet with the most success in whichever  exchange companies (whether it's II, Marriott's, RCI etc ...) get the benefit of developer bulk bankings.  Success in II would certainly be diminished by any of the big boys moving their bulk bankings elsewhere.

You're correct in that in order for their new program to be a success, Marriott needs to deposit whatever Trust and developer inventory they're holding into their related Exchange Company (which they appear to be doing.)  But thinking logically, if Marriott's focus is on the success of their new program why would we have any expectation that they won't do that?  What purpose would it serve Marriott to not do it?


----------



## dioxide45

Marriott will have to deposit unreserved trust inventory in to II far earlier than 60 days out. The enrolled members in the trust will not be numerous enough to soak up all those unsold weeks. Marriott won't hold on to them until day 60 because then many of the units will go unfilled. Not a lot of people book at the 60 day mark compared to farther out. Empty units are not good for business. There may be a longer delay now in ulsold weeks going to II, but they won't wait until 60 days out.


----------



## taffy19

We are trying to do an exchange for our lock-off unit but there isn't a single Marriott deposited for the time we need or any time in March and April. They are not getting the Marriott deposits yet so she told me to try within the last sixty days. 

I am going to call every day as I am not going to lock-off our unit for nothing. Last year, we got our exchange within 24 hours for the one and only unit we wanted and for the single week we specified. II had Marriott owned weeks available but they are now going in the Trust bucket. The Sales Manager at the Newport Coast Villas warned us that less deposits will go to II and it already is showing. 

This new plan has made our purchase worthless to us because we bought for the view and locking off for a particular week so that's why we went for a fixed week and unit. We were told that we would have no problems locking off and getting that second week we needed. What a joke! 

Marriott devalued our enjoyment of ownership and they did this once before with our first Marriott timeshare when we no longer could make reservations in the spring unless we tried several weeks on a row because of the 13 months reservation perk for multiple timeshare week owners that was introduced so now we have our second problem because of a change in the program.

They will keep chiseling away of the new program too and once they get the majority of the votes, all Legacy week owners will be toast. JMHO. Can't you tell I am fed up with the Marriott?


----------



## windje2000

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott will have to deposit unreserved trust inventory in to II far earlier than 60 days out. The enrolled members in the trust will not be numerous enough to soak up all those unsold weeks. Marriott won't hold on to them until day 60 because then many of the units will go unfilled. Not a lot of people book at the 60 day mark compared to farther out. Empty units are not good for business. There may be a longer delay now in ulsold weeks going to II, but they won't wait until 60 days out.



DClub stats

For the period 6/20/2010 thru 9/17/2010

    * 24,739 enrollments
    * 53,975 enrolled owner weeks
    * 1,730 point banking transactions
    * 2,544 point borrowing transaction
    * 4,167 point based reservations - for more than 11,000 nights
    * more than 5,500 families have purchased more than 9,000,000 points



There are more than 370,000 legacy owners who on average own 1.3 weeks  =  nearly 500,000 weeks. 

That represents about 10,000 owner owned occupancies/week  or 70,000 nights per calendar week  


DClub stats

11,000 nights/12 weeks = just over 900 nights per week

900/70,000 = 1.3%  

That's a pretty small percentage of the pie, but keep in mind that DClub is still starting up.  OTOH, I would guess that the summer is probably the best time to sell timeshare, and that the holidays are not a great time to sell timeshare.

I think a lot of those occupancies are pluspoints.  The average stay is short.    

11,000 / 4,167 = 2.6 days per stay


----------



## timtax

*Help me with the math*



windje2000 said:


> DClub stats
> 
> For the period 6/20/2010 thru 9/17/2010
> 
> * 24,739 enrollments
> * 53,975 enrolled owner weeks
> * 1,730 point banking transactions
> * 2,544 point borrowing transaction
> * 4,167 point based reservations - for more than 11,000 nights
> * more than 5,500 families have purchased more than 9,000,000 points
> 
> 
> 
> There are more than 370,000 legacy owners who on average own 1.3 weeks  =  nearly 500,000 weeks.
> 
> That represents about 10,000 owner owned occupancies/week  or 70,000 nights per calendar week
> 
> 
> DClub stats
> 
> 11,000 nights/12 weeks = just over 900 nights per week
> 
> 900/70,000 = 1.3%
> 
> That's a pretty small percentage of the pie, but keep in mind that DClub is still starting up.  OTOH, I would guess that the summer is probably the best time to sell timeshare, and that the holidays are not a great time to sell timeshare.
> 
> I think a lot of those occupancies are pluspoints.  The average stay is short.
> 
> 11,000 / 4,167 = 2.6 days per stay



If there are 53975 enrolled owner weeks, Isn't that a little over 10% of all weeks? That sounds like progress towards the 20% expected conversion.


----------



## wof45

I also agree that 10% of owner weeks signed up in the first three months is a good start.  We signed in October, with our 5 weeks, so I expect that the next quarterly numbers will be higher -- once people do the math and think through the alternatives.

I believe Marriott gave little value to the off-season weeks, so there will be little sign-up from those weeks since they would not have enough points to select a week.

I don't expect to see a lot of inventory made available before 60 days with some still held back.  It is wrong to think of an unrented week as bad business since these are not hotel nights and lost revenue -- Marriott gets no revenue for making developer weeks available.  

The only potential revenue to Marriott for these weeks is to rent them at reduced price to people who might become buyers.  I would think there would be a higher benefit to Marriott's new business model in making them available to DC points to make points purchases work well, and to rent to perspective DC buyers.  I don't see current II owners as particularly good prospects for new sales.


----------



## windje2000

timtax said:


> If there are 53975 enrolled owner weeks, Isn't that a little over 10% of all weeks? That sounds like progress towards the 20% expected conversion.



When one speaks of *conversion*, I'm assuming one means election of points and participation in the points based occupancy plan, which is not disclosed in these data.

*Enrollment*, however, is an entirely different metric.

EDITED to ADD

Divide the number of points reservations (4,167) by  enrolled weeks (54,000+) as one measure of participation to date.  This participation figure should increase as next year's vacation plans are made.  

Participation also will be affected by the 24,000 legacy members each of whom have 800 pluspoints, for a total of more than 19 million.  They may be the reason Marriott is not bulk banking inventory with II.  That's more than twice the number of Trust points sold.   

Note also that one would expect points electors (on average) to reserve a greater number of shorter stays.


----------



## dioxide45

windje2000 said:


> DClub stats
> 
> For the period 6/20/2010 thru 9/17/2010
> 
> * 24,739 enrollments
> * 53,975 enrolled owner weeks
> * 1,730 point banking transactions
> * 2,544 point borrowing transaction
> * 4,167 point based reservations - for more than 11,000 nights
> * more than 5,500 families have purchased more than 9,000,000 points
> 
> 
> 
> There are more than 370,000 legacy owners who on average own 1.3 weeks  =  nearly 500,000 weeks.
> 
> That represents about 10,000 owner owned occupancies/week  or 70,000 nights per calendar week
> 
> 
> DClub stats
> 
> 11,000 nights/12 weeks = just over 900 nights per week
> 
> 900/70,000 = 1.3%
> 
> That's a pretty small percentage of the pie, but keep in mind that DClub is still starting up.  OTOH, I would guess that the summer is probably the best time to sell timeshare, and that the holidays are not a great time to sell timeshare.
> 
> I think a lot of those occupancies are pluspoints.  The average stay is short.
> 
> 11,000 / 4,167 = 2.6 days per stay



At our Orlando presentation they had a big screen TV showing some updates stats as of 11/15. It showed 38,000 enrolled owners.


----------



## dioxide45

Lots more added on 4/20/2011, with notice record dates of 5/3/2011. Duplicate resorts are due to reaquired and developer inventory being added to the trust with seperate notices.

Surprised to see the addition of Grande Residence in Lake Tahoe.

20110230869- Barony Beach Club
20110230870- BeachPlace Towers
20110230871- Canyon Villas
20110230872- Crystal Shores
20110230873- Cypress Harbour
20110230874- Desert Springs I
20110230875- Desert Springs II
20110230876- Fairways Villas
20110230877- Grande Residence Lake Tahoe
20110230878- Grand Chataeu
20110230883- Grande Ocean
20110230884- Grande Vista
20110230885- Harbour Club
20110230886- Harbour Pointe
20110230887- Heritage Club
20110230888- Willow Ridge Lodge
20110230889- Harbour Lake
20110230890- Imperial Palms
20110230891- Kauai Beach Club
20110230892- Lakeshore reserve
20110230950- Legends Edge
20110230951- Manor Club
20110230952- Manor Club Sequel
20110230953- Maui Ocean Club Sequel
20110230954- Maui Ocean Club
20110230955- Monarch at Sea Pines
20110230956- Newport Coast
20110230957- Mountain Side
20110230958- Ocean Pointe
20110230959- Ocean Watch
20110231092- Waiohai
20110231093- Grande Residence Lake Tahoe
20110231094- Barony Beach Club
20110231095- Canyon Villas I
20110231096- Crystal Shores
20110231097- Fairway Villas
20110231098- Grand Chateau
20110231099- Grande Vista
20110231100- Harbour Lake
20110231101- Kalanipu'u
20110231216- Oceana Palms
20110231217- Royal Palms
20110231218- Sabal Palms
20110231219- Shadow Ridge
20110231220- Shadow Ridge II
20110231221- Summit Watch
20110231222- Sunset Pointe
20110231223- Surfwatch
20110231224- Timber Lodge
20110231225- Villas at Doral
20110231254- Lakeshore Reserve
20110231255- Maui Ocean Club
20110231256- Maui Ocean Club Sequel
20110231257- Newport Coast
20110231258- Ocean Watch
20110231259- Oceana Palms
20110231260- Shadow Ridge
20110231261- Shadow Ridge II
20110231262- Surfwatch
20110231263- Timber Lodge
20110231268- Willow Ridge Lodge
20110231269- Waiohai

I will let GregT work the numbers magic if he so desires.


----------



## Steve

Thanks for the update, Dioxide.  This info is very interesting.

I have a question (for anyone).  Looking at the weeks Marriott has acquired for the trust at Sunset Pointe, all of them are low season weeks.  In addition, all but one of the weeks acquired at Grande Ocean are low season weeks. (The exception being one gold week.)  

With the poor ratio of points to maintenance fee dollar on these low season weeks, why is Marriott acquiring them and dumping them into the trust?  

Steve


----------



## melroseman

You-all have been far more involved in tracking the DC evolution than I have.  But I own at KBC, and am amazed that there was that much inventory to put into the DC.  Where is all of that inventory coming from??


----------



## dioxide45

Steve said:


> Thanks for the update, Dioxide.  This info is very interesting.
> 
> I have a question (for anyone).  Looking at the weeks Marriott has acquired for the trust at Sunset Pointe, all of them are low season weeks.  In addition, all but one of the weeks acquired at Grande Ocean are low season weeks. (The exception being one gold week.)
> 
> With the poor ratio of points to maintenance fee dollar on these low season weeks, why is Marriott acquiring them and dumping them into the trust?
> 
> Steve



I think they are foreclosures, likely from defaulted loans rather than defaulted MF. I would think they would put the weeks foreclosed on by the HOA due to MF default on the HOA to sell. However, when they foreclose on a mortgage on one of these they really don't have another outlet for it other than the trust.


----------



## dioxide45

melroseman said:


> You-all have been far more involved in tracking the DC evolution than I have.  But I own at KBC, and am amazed that there was that much inventory to put into the DC.  Where is all of that inventory coming from??



The latest dump of KBC appears to be reacquires. Either through foreclosures (most likely) or ROFR (least likely).


----------



## sparty

Steve said:


> Thanks for the update, Dioxide.  This info is very interesting.
> 
> I have a question (for anyone).  Looking at the weeks Marriott has acquired for the trust at Sunset Pointe, all of them are low season weeks.  In addition, all but one of the weeks acquired at Grande Ocean are low season weeks. (The exception being one gold week.)
> 
> With the poor ratio of points to maintenance fee dollar on these low season weeks, why is Marriott acquiring them and dumping them into the trust?
> 
> Steve



Interesting observation. I just scanned Barony and Cypress Habrour and had the same observation. They dumped junk, only  2 Plat weeks at Barony were added.


----------



## vacationtime1

The Waiohai weeks are prime weeks.  Nine of the thirty weeks are week 52 weeks, several of which are ocean view.  Many of the others are week 1-51 floaters (i.e. Hales 1-3) which I suspect will be automatically reserved for week 51 every year.  I doubt any of these would have been foreclosure weeks, so unless there is some unsold inventory, they would have had to have come from ROFR or trade-ins.  Also, with only a couple of exceptions, they could not have come from the build out of the former sales office because the units numbers do not match that location.

The Kauai Lagoon weeks ("Kalanipu'u") units are sequentially numbered and appear to be put into the trust as buildings or units are completed.


----------



## SueDonJ

Nice work, Dioxide, again.  Thanks.     Love that Grand Residence introduction.

With the way that Marriott and II are managing to finagle the inventory so that DC Points users can get their requests fulfilled, I'm not surprised at all that Marriott is dumping whatever weeks it can get into the Trust (especially weeks from the resorts which were sold out when the DC was rolled out.)  Barony, Cypress Harbour, etc. silver and bronze weeks may not be valuable to Weeks owners for off-season stays, but they could be worth much more internally if Marriott and II have worked a deal whereby Marriott can deposit those to II in exchange for a higher-demand week.  DC Points user requests Barony Gold, Marriott deposits in II a Barony Silver from the Trust, II gives Marriott the Gold, Marriott gives it to DC Points user - voila!  Weeks owners have been taking advantage of uptrades in II for years, now Marriott can do the same thing to fuel its DC Exchange Company.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> ... I will let GregT work the numbers magic if he so desires.



Greg, if you're working at it, I'm interested to know if there are any resorts left which haven't had any weeks conveyed to the Trust?  Thanks ...


----------



## curbysplace

SueDonJ said:


> Greg, if you're working at it, I'm interested to know if there are any resorts left which haven't had any weeks conveyed to the Trust?  Thanks ...



I don't see any Vail Marriott Streamside weeks in the trust.


----------



## windje2000

dioxide45 said:


> I think they are foreclosures, likely from defaulted loans rather than defaulted MF. I would think they would put the weeks foreclosed on by the HOA due to MF default on the HOA to sell. However, when they foreclose on a mortgage on one of these they really don't have another outlet for it other than the trust.



Based on a quick look at Monarch data, most would appear to be foreclosures or forfeitures from unpaid MFs as the prior titleholder in many instances is either Marvin Dukes III Master in Equity (the Beaufort bankruptcy special master) or the HOA. 

Marriott securitizes the timeshare notes.  The likely result of a foreclosure is the return of the week to Marriott in exchange for $ owed by the noteholder to the CDO.

Most of the weeks in this resort that went into the trust also are single digit or 40-50 weeks.  

If these are the exchange currency (points equal in and out) that will be used with II to snag plat weeks for DC points members, . . .  

Dioxide - Many thanks for tracking and posting these data.  




SueDonJ said:


> Nice work, Dioxide, again.  Thanks.     Love that Grand Residence introduction.
> 
> With the way that Marriott and II are managing to *finagle* the inventory so that DC Points users can get their requests fulfilled, I'm not surprised at all that Marriott is dumping whatever weeks it can get into the Trust (especially weeks from the resorts which were sold out when the DC was rolled out.)
> 
> Barony, Cypress Harbour, etc. silver and bronze weeks may not be valuable to Weeks owners for off-season stays, but they could be worth much more internally if Marriott and II have worked a deal whereby Marriott can deposit those to II in exchange for a higher-demand week.  DC Points user requests Barony Gold, Marriott deposits in II a Barony Silver from the Trust, II gives Marriott the Gold, Marriott gives it to DC Points user - voila!  *Weeks owners have been taking advantage of uptrades in II for years, now Marriott can do the same thing to fuel its DC Exchange Company.*



So you believe Marriott 'finagling' inventory for its own benefit that is a good thing for existing owners???  

And reducing existing owners ability to exchange in the furtherance of selling the dregs of inventory as points is a good thing for existing owners???

My concern is that I lose opportunities to make even exchanges.  

Snagging an uptrade as an owner in II is not and never has been a sure bet.  Dealing from the bottom of the deck is.


----------



## tschwa2

The silver and bronze weeks dumped into the trust also means Marriott has more block votes at sold out resorts.


----------



## SueDonJ

windje2000 said:


> ... So you believe Marriott 'finagling' inventory for its own benefit that is a good thing for existing owners???
> 
> And reducing existing owners ability to exchange in the furtherance of selling the dregs of inventory as points is a good thing for existing owners???



I didn't say if it's a good thing or not for existing owners if Marriott is able to swing uptrades in II using the lower-demand inventory that's been conveyed to the Trust.  Up there in the thread Steve asked for opinions why Marriott would want these low season weeks and it occurs to me - and many others previously in this thread - that Marriott can do the same thing with them that others have been doing for years.     Just like with most everything else related to Marriott timeshares my opinion about what's a good thing or not doesn't mean diddly-squat - Marriott's going to do whatever the contracts and agreements allow them to do, same as every other owner.  



windje2000 said:


> My concern is that I lose opportunities to make even exchanges.
> 
> Snagging an uptrade as an owner in II is not and never has been a sure bet.  Dealing from the bottom of the deck is.



It's a valid concern that's been discussed on TUG for months now and it sure appears that the DC has impacted II inventory in many ways.  But snagging ANY trade has never been guaranteed, and the game rules have never been set in stone.  Seeing as Marriott and II write the rules it's not surprising that they'd take advantage in whatever ways possible.  Again, not saying it's a good thing; it's simply the way it is.


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

SueDonJ said:


> Greg, if you're working at it, I'm interested to know if there are any resorts left which haven't had any weeks conveyed to the Trust?  Thanks ...






Sue;  I may have missed it, but I don't see any weeks for Marriott's Custom House.   Maybe that is because the Custom House is a RTU property ?????

Or maybe because the Custom House has only 84 villas, and weeks haven't yet been obtained ?



.


----------



## windje2000

SueDonJ said:


> I didn't say if it's a good thing or not for existing owners if Marriott is able to swing uptrades in II using the lower-demand inventory that's been conveyed to the Trust.  Up there in the thread Steve asked for opinions why Marriott would want these low season weeks and it occurs to me - and many others previously in this thread - that Marriott can do the same thing with them that others have been doing for years.     Just like with most everything else related to Marriott timeshares my opinion about what's a good thing or not doesn't mean diddly-squat - *Marriott's going to do whatever the contracts and agreements allow them to do, same as every other owner.  *
> 
> 
> 
> It's a valid concern that's been discussed on TUG for months now and it sure appears that the DC has impacted II inventory in many ways.  But snagging ANY trade has never been guaranteed, and the game rules have never been set in stone.  Seeing as Marriott and II write the rules it's not surprising that they'd take advantage in whatever ways possible.  Again, not saying it's a good thing; it's simply the way it is.



Just because something is permitted by a contract of adhesion and is therefore 'legal' does not mean it is the right thing to do.  

Here's a famous 'for example' from old law course lecture on jury nullification

Would you have voted to convict Rosa Parks of violating the law on sitting in the front of the bus if you were on the jury that heard that case?  (You would have been just be following the law.)

Legal and ethical, moral, etc. don't always converge.

If I had had prior knowledge that Marriott would be not only operating in but competing with me in the exchange business I wouldn't be an owner.  And I'll hazard a guess that your CPA husband who understands the concept of independence likely would have had some reservations as well.


----------



## SueDonJ

windje2000 said:


> Just because something is permitted by a contract of adhesion and is therefore 'legal' does not mean it is the right thing to do.
> 
> Here's a famous 'for example' from old law course lecture on jury nullification
> 
> Would you have voted to convict Rosa Parks of violating the law on sitting in the front of the bus if you were on the jury that heard that case?  (You would have been just be following the law.)
> 
> Legal and ethical, moral, etc. don't always converge.
> 
> If I had had prior knowledge that Marriott would be not only operating in but competing with me in the exchange business I wouldn't be an owner.  And I'll hazard a guess that your CPA husband who understands the concept of independence likely would have had some reservations as well.



You're equating all this to something similar to a Rosa Parks jury trial?  Really?!  Hmmmm ... a woman whose action (in defiance of a later-proven-unconstitutional law) served as a catalyst for the US Civil Rights Movement and a hospitality company pissing off owners of its timeshares by expanding its business and following the same practices that the owners do.  Gosh, both of them should have the book thrown at them!   

So far I haven't been put in a jury situation where morality and ethics conflict with a good person's basic rights and freedoms - hope I never am!  But what we discuss routinely on TUG just doesn't compare.  Don't know why but it surprises me how often the legal/moral/ethical discussion comes up in relation to Marriott's timeshare business.  I really do think that as long as what they do is legally correct then it doesn't matter whether I like what they're doing or not.  Even if I was to judge them morally/ethically and find them lacking, what options other than contract disputes would be available to me to fight them and have a decent shot at winning?   

But that doesn't mean I just sit back and take the absolute least usage value I can get out of the timeshares after Marriott takes actions; it does enforce the importance of learning the rules by which they're playing so usage value can be maximized.  Don's as pragmatic as me when it comes to Marriott but he spends a whole lot less time thinking about all this than any of us do.  We figure out where and when we want to go somewhere, then I use all the knowledge TUGgers have shared to try to get us there.  So far, we're both happy enough with Marriott because we haven't been unable to get to one of those somewheres yet.


----------



## GregT

Dioxide, fantastic stuff, thanks for finding this.   I will update the Trust spreadsheet and load in the info asap.

Best,

Greg


----------



## GregT

Interesting -- notice how they load properties in 250 point increments?  That's not possible based upon the point chart -- somehow, they apply a different 'points value' when loading the trust.   I think I posted on this once before, but I found just a single week loaded, and it had an even number of points (1,500?) that did not correlate to the weeks value per the point chart -- interesting then, and interesting now......

Updated thru 4/30/11:


Timberlodge........................12,413,000 
Newport Coast Villas.............10,255,250 
Crystal Shores.......................9,253,250 
Ko Olina................................9,208,750 
Oceana Palms........................6,574,500 
MOC-Sequel..........................5,675,750 
Grande Chateau.....................5,292,750 
MOC.....................................4,132,000 
Kalanipu'u..............................4,057,500   (Kauai Lagoons)
Canyon Villas..........................3,617,500 
Willow Ridge...........................2,919,750 
Grande Residence Club Tahoe....2,564,000   
Shadow Ridge II......................2,355,250 
Grand Vista............................2,127,500 
Ocean Watch.........................2,004,250 
Harbour Lake.............................875,750 
Lakeshore Reserve.....................480,000 
Ocean Point..............................466,750 
Fairway Villas............................420,750 
DSV II.....................................417,500 
Shadow Ridge...........................354,250 
Kauai Beach Club.......................351,000 
SurfWatch...............................215,000 
Waiohai...................................151,750 
Cypress Harbour........................150,750 
Sabal Palms..............................150,000 
Royal Palms..............................141,750 
Mountain Side...........................124,250 
Barony Beach Club.....................121,000 
Manor Club Sequel.....................107,250 
Harbour Pointe............................87,750 
DSV I........................................82,000 
Manor Club.................................68,000 
Summit Watch............................68,000 
Grande Ocean.............................56,750 
Doral.........................................51,000 
Sunset Point...............................47,000 
Imperial Palm Villas.......................45,250 
Monarch at Sea Pines...................38,250 
Harbour Club...............................26,250 
Legends Edge..............................26,000 
BeachPlace Towers.......................21,250 
Heritage Club...............................11,000 

Total...........................87,607,250    (128,000 unaccounted for)

Best to all,

Greg


----------



## SueDonJ

GregT said:


> Interesting -- notice how they load properties in 250 point increments?  That's not possible based upon the point chart -- somehow, they apply a different 'points value' when loading the trust.   I think I posted on this once before, but I found just a single week loaded, and it had an even number of points (1,500?) that did not correlate to the weeks value per the point chart -- interesting then, and interesting now......
> 
> Updated thru 4/30/11: ...



Nice work again, Greg, thanks!

Each DC "beneficial interest" is 250 Points, that's where the increment comes from.


----------



## GregT

SueDonJ said:


> Nice work again, Greg, thanks!
> 
> Each DC "beneficial interest" is 250 Points, that's where the increment comes from.



That makes sense -- this must have been a number-crunchers dream to construct this system and all of its disparate points values!!!

It's fun for a number-cruncher to de-construct too......

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> That makes sense -- this must have been a number-crunchers dream to construct this system and all of its disparate points values!!!
> 
> It's fun for a number-cruncher to de-construct too......
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



That week looks like it was a gold Willow Ridge Lodge. For trust purposes they value it at 1500 points. It appears however that they are offering owners of those weeks 1575 in the DC exchange company. I don't have Dan's spreadsheet handy to see what the average for the gold season is there. I really don't understand how they came up with these values.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> I'm interested to know if there are any resorts left which haven't had any weeks conveyed to the Trust?  Thanks ...



I looked at all the resorts today and those in the trust. There only appears to be three that don't have any points in the trust.


Custom House
StreamSide
Mountain Valley Lodge

I was surprised by the low number of points that Lakeshore Reserve has in the trust. It wasn't even one of the initial resorts. Being a new resort it is commonly believed that it had a lot of unsold inventory and had a lot of weeks in the trust. In fact it isn't even in the top 15 resorts points wise that the trust holds.


----------



## SueDonJ

curbysplace said:


> I don't see any Vail Marriott Streamside weeks in the trust.





TheTimeTraveler said:


> Sue;  I may have missed it, but I don't see any weeks for Marriott's Custom House.   Maybe that is because the Custom House is a RTU property ?????
> 
> Or maybe because the Custom House has only 84 villas, and weeks haven't yet been obtained ?
> 
> 
> 
> .





dioxide45 said:


> I looked at all the resorts today and those in the trust. There only appears to be three that don't have any points in the trust.
> 
> 
> Custom House
> StreamSide
> Mountain Valley Lodge
> 
> I was surprised by the low number of points that Lakeshore Reserve has in the trust. It wasn't even one of the initial resorts. Being a new resort it is commonly believed that it had a lot of unsold inventory and had a lot of weeks in the trust. In fact it isn't even in the top 15 resorts points wise that the trust holds.



Thanks, all.  I have no idea what it means if a resort doesn't have any weeks conveyed to the Trust but we may as well keep track of whatever data we can figure out.  The question, "what resorts AREN'T there?" popped into my head when I read dioxide's latest with all those gobs of conveyances, and so I asked it.   

I wish there was some way to figure out how many Weeks Marriott is holding that haven't been conveyed to the Trust yet, and why.  But again, don't know what good it will do to know the answer.  It's just another question.


----------



## GregT

TUGgers,

With thanks to Dioxide for both finding the missing points and teaching me how to format a table correctly, please see the revised Trust Inventory.  

All points are accounted for.

Best to all,

Greg


Updated through April 2011:



PROPERTY...............TRUST POINTS....% OF TRUST

Timber Lodge............12,413,000......14.15%
Newport Coast...........10,255,250......11.69%
Crystal Shores...........9,253,250......10.55%
Ko'Olina.................9,208,750......10.50%
Oceana Palms.............6,574,500.......7.49%
Maui Ocean Club Sequel...5,675,750.......6.47%
Grand Chateau............5,292,750.......6.03%
Maui Ocean Club..........4,132,000.......4.71%
Kalanipu'u...............4,057,500.......4.62%          (Kauai Lagoons)
Canyon Villas............3,792,750.......4.32%
Willow Ridge Lodge.......2,919,750.......3.33%
Grand Residence Tahoe....2,564,000.......2.92%
Shadow Ridge II..........2,267,500.......2.58%
Grande Vista.............2,127,500.......2.42%
Ocean Watch..............2,004,250.......2.28%
Harbour Lake...............875,750.......1.00%
Lakeshore Reserve..........480,000.......0.55%
Ocean Pointe...............466,750.......0.53%
Shadow Ridge...............442,000.......0.50%
Fairway Villas.............420,750.......0.48%
Desert Springs II..........417,500.......0.48%
Kauai Beach Club...........351,000.......0.40%
Surfwatch..................215,000.......0.25%
Waiohai....................151,750.......0.17%
Cypress Harbour............150,750.......0.17%
Sabal Palms................150,000.......0.17%
Royal Palms................141,750.......0.16%
Barony Beach Club..........121,000.......0.14%
Manor Club Sequel..........107,250.......0.12%
Harbour Pointe..............87,750.......0.10%
Desert Springs I............82,000.......0.09%
Mountain Side...............77,000.......0.09%
Manor Club..................68,000.......0.08%
Summit Watch................68,000.......0.08%
Grande Ocean................56,750.......0.06%
Villas at Doral.............51,000.......0.06%
Sunset Pointe...............47,000.......0.05%
Imperial Palms..............45,250.......0.05%
Monarch at Sea Pines........38,250.......0.04%
Harbour Club................26,250.......0.03%
Legends Edge................26,000.......0.03%
BeachPlace Towers...........21,250.......0.02%
Heritage Club...............11,000.......0.01%
Custom House.....................0.......0.00%
Mountain Valley Lodge............0.......0.00%
StreamSide.......................0.......0.00%

Grand Total.............87,735,250.....100.00%


----------



## hotcoffee

SueDonJ said:


> . . . . I really do think that as long as what they do is legally correct then it doesn't matter whether I like what they're doing or not. . . .



How many times has someone said here on TUG that Marriott is running a business?  Their business is now selling points and exchanging via their own internal exchange company.

Weeks owners have been, and continue to be, guaranteed reservations at their home resorts for the seasons they purchased.  However, the DC program looks to be leaning more-and-more toward giving an exchange advantage to DC points members.  In reality, that should not be too surprising to anyone since the DC program is now the program that Marriott is pushing.

That said, I doubt II would be too willing to trade Marriott quality for junk (unless they saw some benefit for themselves).  II is also running a business.

The surprising growth of the Trust I think is exciting news for DC members.  The bigger the Trust gets, the more likely it will be that DC members get successful exchanges.  Marriott has to do something with all of the surplus inventory.  Much of it will almost certainly have to be moved to their exchange program.  Some of it will likely be used for II trades on behalf of DC members.  They certainly are not going to sell it off in points any time soon.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> I wish there was some way to figure out how many Weeks Marriott is holding that haven't been conveyed to the Trust yet, and why.  But again, don't know what good it will do to know the answer.  It's just another question.



It would have to be a lot. Based on information posted here we know MVCI has indicated that they have a lot of inventory, and those amounts are not based on retail pricing. 87MM points is a little under $1BB in inventory based on retail prices. My guess is that MVCI has 4-5 times more inventory they are not placing in the trust.


----------



## TJCNewYork

Avoiding information overload, am just jumping in to make a comment and have not followed the entire discussion. Recalling Larry Sisson's 1998 TUG article on Annual Budgets, inventory whether for legacy exchange or points program is subject to Florida statute: 

"Annual assessments for Florida Timeshares are currently caculated by two statutory methods:  Percentage of Ownership in the timeshare plan or square footage of the unit occupied.  There is a proposed change in the Florida Senate in SB 626 that would modify this to include some subjective criteria, i.e. location of unit,  ammenities, etc.  The points system some resorts use will be adjusted to meet the statutory requirment of  a (one-to-one) ratio that must be maintained at all times, else a violation will have occured.  Resorts that offer an exchange program/reservation system must be careful of violating this part of the statute by over booking units."

Making a huge assumption that spinco will continue to comply with statutory requirements, maintaining a balance of legacy to trust inventory would seem to be in all our interests.  That said, is anyone aware of pending legislation that the Florida legislature is considering that potentially impacts or will have an impact that would lessen the real and/or perceived protection that current statutes provide upon our respective inventory interests?


----------



## hotcoffee

dioxide45 said:


> It would have to be a lot. Based on information posted here we know MVCI has indicated that they have a lot of inventory, and those amounts are not based on retail pricing. 87MM points is a little under $1BB in inventory based on retail prices. My guess is that MVCI has 4-5 times more inventory they are not placing in the trust.



I know when I enrolled, the points salesman insisted tht Marriott had plenty of inventory.  He claimed that Marriott had inventory at every resort.

However, if they have 4 to 5 times more inventory than is currently in the Trust, that seems to me to be pretty shocking.  Poor sales combined with a large inventory combined with a high foreclosure rate translates to trouble for the timeshare industry.  I would assume the whole industry is more-or-less in the same boat.  I am glad there is a lot of inventory for DC exchanges, but not too optimistic about the future considering some of the troubling economic realities this country faces.


----------



## dioxide45

hotcoffee said:


> I know when I enrolled, the points salesman insisted tht Marriott had plenty of inventory.  He claimed that Marriott had inventory at every resort.
> 
> However, if they have 4 to 5 times more inventory than is currently in the Trust, that seems to me to be pretty shocking.  Poor sales combined with a large inventory combined with a high foreclosure rate translates to trouble for the timeshare industry.  I would assume the whole industry is more-or-less in the same boat.  I am glad there is a lot of inventory for DC exchanges, but not too optimistic about the future considering some of the troubling economic realities this country faces.



I agree that there is trouble in the TS industry, though I don't think other companies got caught with nearly as much excess inventory as MVCI did. Other companies, Hilton especially, are actively exercising ROFR. That is an indication to me that they have an inventory shortage and are replenishing it with ROFR weeks as they sell.

MCVI was aggressively developing new resorts up through the real estate crisis. Opening three new and large resorts, Marco Island, Lakeshore Reserve, and Oceana Palms, right before the crash. They got caught with their pants down holding on to a boat load of inventory. I hope they can turn it around for everyone's sake.


----------



## GregT

All,

For what it's worth (not much), I estimated the number of weeks that have been deposited for Ko Olina, because it is a property that I am interested in.

Using an inexact estimate (ie counting the number of weeks on one page, and then counting the number of pages with similar "deposits"), I estimate that there are approximately 2,000 Ko Olina weeks in the Trust.  I believe there are 39,000 total weeks at Ko Olina, so the Trust has 5% of the total weeks.

No real point here, only that even Ko Olina, one of the deeper properties in the Trust, only has a single digit percentage of the property in the Trust.

Now, if they build out Building 4, all of those weeks would go to the Trust (and I'm not sure if that would be worth it to do).

Best,

Greg


Estimated weeks:

1425 weeks -- Initial deposit
50 weeks -- November first deposit
500 weeks -- November second deposit


----------



## vacationtime1

hotcoffee said:


> I know when I enrolled, the points salesman insisted tht Marriott had plenty of inventory.  *He claimed that Marriott had inventory at every resort.*





hotcoffee said:


> How many times has someone said here on TUG that Marriott is running a business?  Their business is now selling points and exchanging via their own internal exchange company.
> 
> Weeks owners have been, and continue to be, guaranteed reservations at their home resorts for the seasons they purchased.  However, *the DC program looks to be leaning more-and-more toward giving an exchange advantage to DC points members.  In reality, that should not be too surprising to anyone since the DC program is now the program that Marriott is pushing.
> *
> That said, I doubt II would be too willing to trade Marriott quality for junk (unless they saw some benefit for themselves).  II is also running a business.



This is scary, but probably correct.  We know from the charts above that the Trust does not *own* much inventory at many popular resorts.  We also know that the Trust will have to come up with inventory at these resorts in order to fulfill its implied obligations to owners of the Trust or the Trust will fail in the long term.  It can acquire the necessary inventory by purchasing it on the open market (expensive), exercising ROFR (less expensive, but slow), or controlling exchange inventory (no capital cost, quick, and easy).

Many of us have commented about fewer exchange possibilities farther downstream.   Most of us have recently observed a large number of last minute exchange possibilities at prime resorts.

I connect these dots by concluding that Marriott is manipulating exchanges through Interval for the benefit of points owners and the detriment of "traditional" Marriott-to-Marriott weeks exchanges.   The last minute exchange possibilities are consistent with Marriott hoarding prime inventory for Trust owners and releasing it to "mere" weeks owners at the last minute. 

If so, it is time to dump the silver and bronze Marriott weeks purchased with the intent to exchange.


----------



## hotcoffee

vacationtime1 said:


> . . . I connect these dots by concluding that Marriott is manipulating exchanges through Interval for the benefit of points owners and the detriment of "traditional" Marriott-to-Marriott weeks exchanges.   The last minute exchange possibilities are consistent with Marriott hoarding prime inventory for Trust owners and releasing it to "mere" weeks owners at the last minute. . . .



I am not sure it is fair to call it "manipulating".  The DC program _IS_ Marriott's program now.  So, it is in their interest to ensure it is successful.  So, yes, I think they will do what they have to do to make it successful.  I have been told that DC members who elect points to exchange have access to all enrolled weeks that have been exchanged via either points election or II deposits.  Moreover, given the amount of inventory that either Marriott or the Trust owns, or controls via MRP, it is evident that DC members have some significant exchange advantages. It is highly unlikely that I would have been able to exchange into a 2BR OceanFront MOC week in one of the new wings in the middle of July using the II weeks exchange system.


----------



## dioxide45

hotcoffee said:


> I am not sure it is fair to call it "manipulating".  The DC program _IS_ Marriott's program now.  So, it is in their interest to ensure it is successful.  So, yes, I think they will do what they have to do to make it successful.  I have been told that DC members who elect points to exchange have access to all enrolled weeks that have been exchanged via either points election or II deposits.  Moreover, given the amount of inventory that either Marriott or the Trust owns, or controls via MRP, it is evident that DC members have some significant exchange advantages. It is highly unlikely that I would have been able to exchange into a 2BR OceanFront MOC week in one of the new wings in the middle of July using the II weeks exchange system.



I think that it still needs to be pointed out that the DC program hasn't magically created new demand other than trust points sold. Even in weeks new sales would have soaked up some of that inventory. That said, it is true that if DC is hoarding weeks, DC point exchangers will have first crack at them. However, there will still be a lot left. There is no other place to put them. If they were there before DC, they will still exist after.

They will find their way to II, perhaps later than usual. We actually have seen some evidence of this with a lot of late bulk deposits to II.


----------



## vacationtime1

hotcoffee said:


> I am not sure it is fair to call it "manipulating".  The DC program _IS_ Marriott's program now.  So, it is in their interest to ensure it is successful. * So, yes, I think they will do what they have to do to make it successful*.  I have been told that DC members who elect points to exchange have access to all enrolled weeks that have been exchanged via either points election or II deposits.  Moreover, given the amount of inventory that either Marriott or the Trust owns, or controls via MRP, *it is evident that DC members have some significant exchange advantages.* It is highly unlikely that I would have been able to exchange into a 2BR OceanFront MOC week in one of the new wings in the middle of July using the II weeks exchange system.



I used the somewhat inflammatory word "manipulating" intentionally.

Suppose three Marriott owners.  One bought 5,000 shiny new DC trust points.  The second enrolled legacy weeks into the DC, deposited one or more of those weeks, got skimmed, and now has 5,000 DC points to trade.  The third owns a developer-purchased legacy week such as Waiohai or Ko Olina that would be worth 5,000 DC points, but did not enroll it; instead, that owner attempted a traditional week-for-week exchange through Interval.  All three want the same prime Marriott legacy week that was deposited into Interval by its owner for an unrelated exchange (a week that would be worth 5,000 DC points if it were trust property, but it is *not* trust property).  

Who gets the exchange?  I don't think there is any doubt that Marriott will arrange matters so that the trust points owner will get the week before the enrolled week owner, and that the enrolled week owner will get the week before the legacy week owner. 

The prized exchange week was not trust property and each owner deposited something of equal value.  The fact that the week will nonetheless *always* go to the points owner amounts to manipulation.  I "get it" that Marriott is in business to make a profit, but if it doesn't want to play fair, it has fallen to the level of RCI and I will be forced to take my exchange business elsewhere.


----------



## OldPantry

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> For what it's worth (not much), I estimated the number of weeks that have been deposited for Ko Olina, because it is a property that I am interested in.
> 
> Using an inexact estimate (ie counting the number of weeks on one page, and then counting the number of pages with similar "deposits"), I estimate that there are approximately 2,000 Ko Olina weeks in the Trust.  I believe there are 39,000 total weeks at Ko Olina, so the Trust has 5% of the total weeks.
> 
> No real point here, only that even Ko Olina, one of the deeper properties in the Trust, only has a single digit percentage of the property in the Trust.
> 
> Now, if they build out Building 4, all of those weeks would go to the Trust (and I'm not sure if that would be worth it to do).
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> Estimated weeks:
> 
> 1425 weeks -- Initial deposit
> 50 weeks -- November first deposit
> 500 weeks -- November second deposit


I came up with similar results when I analyzed Ko Olina.  The 2000 weeks would represent approximately 38 of the 750 total units at the resort, again, about 5%.  This reflects one of the premium resorts with a large amount of inventory.  I suspect (without having done the grunt work of going through all the deposits) that 5% is at the upper end of likely for all Marriott timeshare resorts.  

That's not a big figure, and I too am not sure what it means.  At a minimum though, the trust clearly must have enough inventory to meet the (theoretical) demand of points owners (otherwise, they'd be running a scam).  It's safe to say, therefore, that new sales of points (as opposed to exchange points from legacy owners, which is a wash, inventory-wise) are hardly robust.  Some portion of new points sales must be coming from legacy owners, who wish to flesh out their exchange points to maximize flexibility and overcome the skim.  So, how many genuine "new" points owners are there?  
If the numbers are as anemic as I suspect, the next sound we'll be hearing from Spinco might be a rousing "glub, glub."


----------



## hotcoffee

vacationtime1 said:


> . . . Suppose three Marriott owners.  One bought 5,000 shiny new DC trust points.  The second enrolled legacy weeks into the DC, deposited one or more of those weeks, got skimmed, and now has 5,000 DC points to trade.  The third owns a developer-purchased legacy week such as Waiohai or Ko Olina that would be worth 5,000 DC points, but did not enroll it; instead, that owner attempted a traditional week-for-week exchange through Interval.  All three want the same prime Marriott legacy week that was deposited into Interval by its owner for an unrelated exchange (a week that would be worth 5,000 DC points if it were trust property, but it is *not* trust property).
> 
> Who gets the exchange?  I don't think there is any doubt that Marriott will arrange matters so that the trust points owner will get the week before the enrolled week owner, and that the enrolled week owner will get the week before the legacy week owner. . . .



The II search will get the week if the II search is the only thing running when the week is deposited.

If, however, a DC member already has a waitlist request for that week running when the deposit request is made, the DC member will get the exchange prior to the week hitting the II inventory.  That is based upon my interpretation of an e-mail exchange I had with someone at Marriott.  My interpretation could be wrong, but I think I understood the process as a deposited Marriott week will first check for a DC waitlist request.  If a waitlist request wants the week, Marriott will use the week to satisfy the waitlist request and deposit into II a week of equal value that will in turn satisfy some ongoing II request.

New DC exchange requests can "see" enrolled weeks that have been deposited into II in the same way as they can "see" the internal exchange inventory.  If a deposited enrolled week is used to satisfy the DC request, Marriott will deposit a week of equal value into II.

New DC exchange requests cannot, of course, see non-enrolled weeks in the II inventory.  But Marriott can submit a II request for the desired week and deposit a week of equal value if it hits.

However, what really gives DC members the advantage is that they have more pots of inventory from which to get an exchange.  Non-members only have II.  DC members have any inventory available to Marriott (which includes II).


----------



## vacationtime1

hotcoffee said:


> The II search will get the week if the II search is the only thing running when the week is deposited.
> 
> If, however, a DC member already has a waitlist request for that week running when the deposit request is made, the DC member will get the exchange prior to the week hitting the II inventory.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> However, what really gives DC members the advantage is that they have more pots of inventory from which to get an exchange.  Non-members only have II.  DC members have any inventory available to Marriott (which includes II).



Your first point is a fair one and well taken:  a legacy week for legacy week exchange will still happen if there is no DC points owner requesting the same exchange.

I'm pretty sure that we agree on the remainder as well:  a DC trust points owner's request will always take precedence over an enrolled owner's request and the enrolled owner's request will always take precedence over a legacy week owner's request for the same exchange.

If I had purchased my Marriott weeks directly from Marriott with the promise of being treated as a valued Marriott customer (as contrasted to those nasty resale buyers), I would find this to be very shabby treatment indeed.

This is sort of what happened in the Starwood world a couple of years back, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised; I am, however, disappointed.


----------



## dioxide45

hotcoffee said:


> However, what really gives DC members the advantage is that they have more pots of inventory from which to get an exchange.  Non-members only have II.  DC members have any inventory available to Marriott (which includes II).



The important thing to point out however is that only DC members trading in or using points have more pots of inventory. Those enrolled legacy owners still exchanging in the weeks model on still on par with non-enrolled legacy owners.


----------



## dioxide45

hotcoffee said:


> I am not sure it is fair to call it "manipulating".





vacationtime1 said:


> I used the somewhat inflammatory word "manipulating" intentionally.



Manipulate Definition
1. To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner.
2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously.

I think what Marriott is doing. Right or wrong, fair or unfair. It is manipulation.

This manipulation isn't good for legacy owners wanting to exchange in weeks, it doesn't matter if you are enrolled or not enrolled. Legacy weeks exchangers are at the back of the line it seems.

I think we have seen some reduced inventory of prime weeks in II; however, the weeks still appear to get dumped in as late bulk deposits. I think this is because MVCI still doesn't have a handle on usage and redemption patterns. Once they have a couple years under their belt, those weeks will find their way to the II pool a lot sooner, perhaps still not at 11 and 12 months out, but far sooner than 4-6 weeks.


----------



## hotcoffee

dioxide45 said:


> Manipulate Definition
> 1. To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner.
> 2. To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously.
> 
> I think what Marriott is doing. Right or wrong, fair or unfair. It is manipulation.
> 
> This manipulation isn't good for legacy owners wanting to exchange in weeks, it doesn't matter if you are enrolled or not enrolled. Legacy weeks exchangers are at the back of the line it seems.
> 
> I think we have seen some reduced inventory of prime weeks in II; however, the weeks still appear to get dumped in as late bulk deposits. I think this is because MVCI still doesn't have a handle on usage and redemption patterns. Once they have a couple years under their belt, those weeks will find their way to the II pool a lot sooner, perhaps still not at 11 and 12 months out, but far sooner than 4-6 weeks.



I believe that the economy will come into play here.  If somehow, miraculously, the price of oil starts a downward trend, the U.S. stops its deficit spending, the U.S. debt actually starts going down instead of up, the job market heats up, and terrorism goes away, timesharing will once again become hot.  Otherwise, I think the Marriott spinoff company will have to think of creative ways to make the program profitable.  Changes to the program will likely come at the expense of those legacy owners who refuse to enroll.  Marriott will almost certainly have to give incentives for purchasing and using points.

Not sure which way Marriott inventory in II will go if points sales go up significantly.


----------



## GregT

Dioxide, 

They look like they've added 7 new documents -- but they are different from before -- no points are allocated to the weeks deposited??????    Properties appear to be Grand Vista, Cypress Harbour and Imperial Palm Villas.   What do you make of it?

Thanks!


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> Dioxide,
> 
> They look like they've added 7 new documents -- but they are different from before -- no points are allocated to the weeks deposited??????    Properties appear to be Grand Vista, Cypress Harbour and Imperial Palm Villas.   What do you make of it?
> 
> Thanks!



These appear to be deeds where they are actually conveying physical weeks to the trust. They will allocate points for those weeks to the trust in a future notice. There are several of these mixed in with the points notices. Any Orlando weeks they need to convey will have deeds recorded in Orange County FL.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> These appear to be deeds where they are actually conveying physical weeks to the trust. They will allocate points for those weeks to the trust in a future notice. There are several of these mixed in with the points notices. Any Orlando weeks they need to convey will have deeds recorded in Orange County FL.



Thank you ---  does this mean that there are similar notices being recorded in other recorder offices (Maui, Oahu?) for the additional/new weeks that will have points allocated to them in a separate filing?

Interesting.....thanks very much!


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> Thank you ---  does this mean that there are similar notices being recorded in other recorder offices (Maui, Oahu?) for the additional/new weeks that will have points allocated to them in a separate filing?
> 
> Interesting.....thanks very much!



Yes, for every week conveyed to the trust there are corresponding deeds recorded in those resorts jurisdictions.


----------



## GregT

All,

Marriott loaded some more points into the Trust yesterday -- now there are approx 111M points in the Trust.

The bulk of the increase in points came from Ritz Carlton Vail (~4M), Kauai Lagoons (~6.5M) and more Newport Coast (12M).   There were numerous other properties with mostly small additions.

The Trust was already deep in Kauai Lagoons and Newport Coast.  The addition of the Ritz Carlton to the Trust is significant because access previously was through Explorer Collection (which presumably could be taken away).  Now that Ritz Carlton Vail is in the Trust, that is permanent access to that property for Trust owners.   I'll be curious if other Ritz Carlton properties get added to the Trust.

I'll update the list as soon as possible.  Thanks

Best,

Greg



Edited:  More properties today -- so now ~114M points in the Trust -- see next post


----------



## GregT

TUGgers,

They loaded more properties this morning -- so this is all points in the Trust Pool as of September 29th, 2011.

Best to all,

Greg


Updated through September 29 2011:



PROPERTY...................TRUST POINTS

Newport Coast Villas........22,532,750 
Timberlodge.................12,465,250 
Kalanipu'u..................10,615,500  .........  (Kauai Lagoons)
Crystal Shores...............9,259,250 
Ko Olina.....................9,208,750 
Oceana Palms.................6,574,500 
Grande Chateau...............5,873,000 
MOC-Sequel...................5,675,750 
Ritz Carlton Vail............4,255,500 
MOC..........................4,132,000 
Canyon Villas................3,823,750 
Grand Vista..................3,133,750 
Willow Ridge.................2,946,750 
Grande Residence Club........2,564,000 
Shadow Ridge II..............2,267,500 
Ocean Watch..................2,019,750 
Harbour Lake.................1,219,750 
Lakeshore Reserve..............690,000 
DSV II.........................612,000 
Fairway Villas.................525,250 
Ocean Point....................466,750 
Shadow Ridge...................417,500 
Kauai Beach Club...............364,500 
DSV I..........................229,250 
SurfWatch......................215,750 
Cypress Harbour................153,250 
Waiohai........................151,750 
Sabal Palms....................150,000 
Barony Beach Club..............144,000 
BeachPlace Towers..............142,250 
Royal Palms....................141,750 
Mountain Side..................121,000 
Legends Edge...................101,500 
Harbour Pointe..................99,000 
Manor Club Sequel...............87,750 
Grande Ocean....................87,250 
Manor Club......................68,000 
Summit Watch....................68,000 
Imperial Palm Villas............54,500 
Doral...........................51,000 
Sunset Point....................47,000 
Monarch at Sea Pines............38,250 
Harbour Club....................30,500 
Heritage Club...................13,000 

.......Total...............113,838,250


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> Marriott loaded some more points into the Trust yesterday -- now there are approx 111M points in the Trust.
> 
> The bulk of the increase in points came from Ritz Carlton Vail (~4M), Kauai Lagoons (~6.5M) and more Newport Coast (12M).   There were numerous other properties with mostly small additions.
> 
> The Trust was already deep in Kauai Lagoons and Newport Coast.  The addition of the Ritz Carlton to the Trust is significant because access previously was through Explorer Collection (which presumably could be taken away).  Now that Ritz Carlton Vail is in the Trust, that is permanent access to that property for Trust owners.   I'll be curious if other Ritz Carlton properties get added to the Trust.
> 
> I'll update the list as soon as possible.  Thanks
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> Edited:  More properties today -- so now ~114M points in the Trust -- see next post



I find it interesting that they placed Ritz Carlton Vail and Grande Residence Tahoe to the trust. Booking the Ritz resorts is a perk of premier and premier plus owners. However with them in the trust, doesn't that make them available to any trust points owner that wants to book them at any time they are permitted to do so? They are both on the 2012/2013 points chart.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> I find it interesting that they placed Ritz Carlton Vail and Grande Residence Tahoe to the trust. Booking the Ritz resorts is a perk of premier and premier plus owners. However with them in the trust, doesn't that make them available to any trust points owner that wants to book them at any time they are permitted to do so? They are both on the 2012/2013 points chart.



Dioxide,

I had the exact same reaction -- I think it is interesting that Ritz Carlton Vail is in the Trust -- I would think any Trust Points owner should be able to book there if they have the points, irrespective of Premier or Premier Plus (and which is appropriate for a Trust Point owner, I'm not suggesting otherwise).  We may find that the "non-Trust" Ritz's are the ones that are restricted to Premier/Premier Plus.

I pulled up the property filing (and also called the RC Vail) and deduced that Marriott has deposited 9 full 2BR units and 7 full 3BR units -- 16 units for the entire year.  When you do the math on the points for these units (which I did), it would require 4.7M points to book the entirety of those units for a year -- but Marriott only deposited 4.2M points into the Trust for the RC units.

So Marriott skimmed themselves when permanently depositing these units into the Trust.   

I respect that (and I'm serious) I am glad to see that the treatment is consistent for Marriott's own Trust units and our Legacy units.   500K points skimmed is $5M less in Trust Points for Marriott to sell.  I'd noted this pattern before when they deposited units but it was never as easy to "prove" that the skimming was equally applied to their own deposits.  

In any event -- the Trust has a new toy -- the Ritz Carlton in Vail.   I'll be curious if any others get permanently added -- its a good way for Marriott to liquidate that inventory, but depositing modest quantities of units into the Trust.  I believe there are 71 units at Ritz Carlton Vail (from their website), and now 16 of them are in the DC Trust permanently.

Best to all,

Greg


----------



## windje2000

GregT said:


> Dioxide,
> 
> I had the exact same reaction -- I think it is interesting that Ritz Carlton Vail is in the Trust -- I would think any Trust Points owner should be able to book there if they have the points, irrespective of Premier or Premier Plus (and which is appropriate for a Trust Point owner, I'm not suggesting otherwise).  We may find that the "non-Trust" Ritz's are the ones that are restricted to Premier/Premier Plus.
> 
> I pulled up the property filing (and also called the RC Vail) and deduced that Marriott has deposited 9 full 2BR units and 7 full 3BR units -- 16 units for the entire year.  *When you do the math on the points for these units (which I did), it would require 4.7M points to book the entirety of those units for a year -- but Marriott only deposited 4.2M points into the Trust for the RC units.*
> 
> So Marriott skimmed themselves when permanently depositing these units into the Trust.
> 
> I respect that (and I'm serious) I am glad to see that the treatment is consistent for Marriott's own Trust units and our Legacy units.   500K points skimmed is $5M less in Trust Points for Marriott to sell.  I'd noted this pattern before when they deposited units but it was never as easy to "prove" that the skimming was equally applied to their own deposits.
> 
> In any event -- the Trust has a new toy -- the Ritz Carlton in Vail.   I'll be curious if any others get permanently added -- its a good way for Marriott to liquidate that inventory, but depositing modest quantities of units into the Trust.  I believe there are 71 units at Ritz Carlton Vail (from their website), and now 16 of them are in the DC Trust permanently.
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Greg



Hi Greg

Just a thought - some of that 500k delta may attributable to scheduled maintenance/rehabs (Does M sell 52 weeks for every physical unit?) and the remainder may be for expected 'breakage' which they may be forecasting to be more material for RC than MVCI.


----------



## gblotter

GregT said:


> They loaded more properties this morning -- so this is all points in the Trust Pool as of September 29th, 2011.


First of all, thank you GregT for taking the time to compile this information.

What continues to amaze me is the amount of Timber Lodge inventory in the trust.  The points assignment for Timber Lodge is generally much lower than Ko Olina, and Timber Lodge is a much smaller resort than Ko Olina.  Yet Timber Lodge comprises a much greater share of the overall trust inventory than Ko Olina.  This must mean that relatively few sales of legacy weeks occurred at Timber Lodge in the pre-DC era.  It could also be a reflection of the fact that only a small percentage of the overall Ko Olina inventory has been deposited in the trust (as pointed out previously).


----------



## GregT

windje2000 said:


> Hi Greg
> 
> Just a thought - some of that 500k delta may attributable to scheduled maintenance/rehabs (Does M sell 52 weeks for every physical unit?) and the remainder may be for expected 'breakage' which they may be forecasting to be more material for RC than MVCI.



Jack,

I definitely agree, maintenace and rehab certainly makes sense as a reduction -- I believe Marriott sold 50 out of the 52 weeks, but I don't know where that "fact" comes from.  Accordingly, I would expect ~4% reduction in the points available.   

But the Ritz Carlton discount is ~10%.  So I just think its interesting (and noteworthy) that Marriott is applying similar skim to their own weeks as they offer for ours.  

Best,

Greg


----------



## SueDonJ

Thanks, Greg, for the latest update.  I'm glad you and dioxide are staying on top of this stuff and posting it for the rest of us.


----------



## Whirl

*Prime or off-season additions?*

I have not had a chance to look at the the docs this time, but what I recal -- and I really only follow the Hilton Head and maybe a few East coast beach weeks -- is that is was largely deeply off season weeks being added. Have any more prime weeks been added in this round or recent rounds?

Thanks.


----------



## dioxide45

Finally getting around to posting links to each document. These are through 9/30/2011 as based on Greg's update of the same date in post #146

Recoreded 8/30/201120110459077 - Newport Coast (Rerecord of 20110231257)

20110512614 - Ritz Carlton Club - Vail
20110512615 - Kalanipu'u
20110512616 - Newport Coast Villas
20110512617 - Fairway Villas
20110512618 - Harbour Lake
20110512619 - Lakeshore Reserve
20110512620 - Newport Coast
20110512621 - Ocean Watch Villas
20110512622 - Surfwatch
20110512623 - Timber Lodge
20110512832 - Barony Beach Club
20110512833 - Beach Place Towers
20110512834 - Canyon Villas
20110512835 - Crystal Shores
20110512836 - Cypress Harbour
20110512837 - Desert Springs I
20110512838 - Desert Springs II
20110512839 - Fairway Villas
20110512840 - Grand Chateau
20110512841 - Grande Ocean
20110513067 - Grande Vista
20110513068 - Harbour Club
20110513069 - Harbour Pointe
20110513070 - Heritage Club
20110513071 - Willow Ridge Lodge
20110513072 - Harbour Lake
20110513073 - Imperial Palm Villas
20110513074 - Kauai Beach Club
20110513075 - Lakeshore Reserve
20110513076 - Legends Edge
20110515673 - Manor Club
20110515674 - Manor Club Sequel
20110515675 - Maui Ocean Club
20110515676 - Maui Ocean Club Sequel
20110515677 - Monarch at Sea Pines
20110515678 - Mountain Side
20110515679 - Newport Coast
20110515680 - Ocean Pointe
20110515681 - Ocean Watch
20110515682 - Oceana Palms
20110516944 - Sabal Palms
20110516945 - Shadow Ridge
20110516946 - Shadow Ridge II
20110516947 - Summit Watch at Park City
20110516948 - Sunset Pointe
20110516949 - Surfwatch
20110516950 - Timber Lodge
20110516951 - Villas at Doral
20110516952 - Waiohai
20110516953 - Canyon Villas
20110517370 - Desert Springs II
20110517371 - Grand Chateau
20110517372 - Grande Vista
20110517373 - Willow Ridge Lodge
20110517374 - Harbour Lake
20110517375 - Kauai Beach Club
20110517376 - Ko'Olina Beach Club
20110517377 - Legends Edge
20110517378 - Maui Ocean Club
20110517379 - Maui Ocean Club Sequel


----------



## dioxide45

*10/3/2011 Update*

It looks like the Orange County Comptroller didn't get everything recorded on Friday September 30th. Here are a couple more docs recorded on Monday October 3rd.

20110517621 - Shadow Ridge II
20110517624 - Waiohai


----------



## dioxide45

It appears that there are also a few filings that were "hidden". Using the normal search criteria didn't bring them up. These were all dated 9/14/2011 and recorded on 10/3/2011.

20110517618 - Mountain Side
20110517619 - Newport Coast
20110517620 - Shadow Ridge II
20110517622 - Waiohai
20110517623 - Villas at Doral


----------



## dioxide45

20110517622 - Timber Lodge

I had one labeled with the incorrect resort name.


----------



## GregT

They uploaded another slug of documents in early February -- now up to 123M points in the Trust.

From a quick scan, it appears that the major contributors are Ritz Carlton Vail (3M pts) and Kauai Lagoons (6M pts).  

The balance of the contributions appear to be small quantities of re-acquired weeks from most other properties -- very little MOC and no Ko Olina added.

Will update the list asap.  Thx

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> They uploaded another slug of documents in early February -- now up to 123M points in the Trust.
> 
> From a quick scan, it appears that the major contributors are Ritz Carlton Vail (3M pts) and Kauai Lagoons (6M pts).
> 
> The balance of the contributions appear to be small quantities of re-acquired weeks from most other properties -- very little MOC and no Ko Olina added.
> 
> Will update the list asap.  Thx
> 
> Greg



I think they recently completed construction on two other buildings at Kauai Lagoons, that likely is the source of those 6MM points.


----------



## slum808

Are there any estimates of how much of the 123M points are already sold?


----------



## dioxide45

Here are all the links to new the documents. All were recorded on 2/3/2012, 2/6/2012, and the last one for some reason was recorded on 2/16/2012. All were dated 1/31/2012

20120058330 - Desert Springs I
20120058338 - Desert Springs II
20120058464 - Shadow Ridge
20120058549 - Timber Lodge
20120058577 - Shadow Ridge II
20120058655 - Newport Coast
20120058685 - Desert Springs II
20120058716 - Shadow Ridge
20120058851 - Shadow Ridge II
20120058860 - Timber Lodge
20120058912 - Ritz Carlton Club - Vail
20120058918 - Shadow Ridge II
20120058919 - Timber Lodge
20120058920 - Fairway Villas
20120059113 - Grand Chateau
20120059119 - Manor Club
20120059399 - Manor Club Sequel
20120059460 - Mountain Valley Lodge
20120059491 - Grand Residence Lake Tahoe
20120059542 - Surfwatch
20120059546 - Grand Chateau
20120059547 - Fairway Villas
20120059550 - Barony Beach Club
20120059552 - Grande Ocean
20120059557 - Harbour Club
20120059561 - Harbour Pointe
20120059563 - Heritage Club
20120059564 - Summit Watch
20120059565 - Mountain Side
20120059566 - Monarch at Sea Pines
20120059567 - Kauai Beach Club
20120059568 - Mountain Side
20120059569 - Canyon Villas
20120059571 - Maui Ocean Club
20120059573 - Maui Ocean Club Sequel
20120059574 - Ocean Watch
20120059580 - Kauai Beach Club
20120059583 - Canyon Villas
20120059995 - Maui Ocean Club
20120059999 - Maui Ocean Club Sequel
20120060133 - Waiohai
20120060220 - Kalanipu'u
20120060226 - Canyon Villas
20120060228 - BeachPlace Towers
20120060230 - Crystal Shores
20120060268 - Cypress Harbour
20120060273 - Grande Vista
20120060283 - Willow Ridge Lodge
20120060291 - Harbour Lake
20120060303 - Imperial Palms
20120060307 - Lakeshore Reserve
20120060455 - Legends Edge
20120060466 - Waiohai
20120060516 - Ocean Pointe
20120060519 - Oceana Palms
20120060531 - Sabal Palms
20120060534 - Villas at Doral
20120060541 - BeachPlace Towers
20120060545 - Crystal Shores
20120060548 - Grande Vista
20120060572 - Willow Ridge Lodge
20120060626 - Harbour Lake
20120060633 - Legends Edge
20120060638 - Ocean Pointe
20120060639 - Villas at Doral
20120060640 - Grande Vista
20120060642 - Lakeshore Reserve
20120060650 - Ocean Pointe
20120060685 - Royal Palms
20120083828 - Newport Coast


----------



## dioxide45

Here is the latest breakdown of points by property. One piece of news is that there is a new resort in the trust; Mountain Valley Lodge. There are actually 137MM points in the trust. They didn't record the notices in the proper order thus the last one recorded did not contain the final cumulative total amount of points in the trust.

*Resort........................Trust Points*
Newport Coast...................23,422,750
Kalanipu'u......................17,086,500
Timber Lodge....................15,224,500
Crystal Shores...................9,277,500
Ko'Olina.........................9,249,750
Maui Ocean Club..................8,815,750
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail.........7,496,000
Grand Chateau....................7,359,000
Oceana Palms.....................6,607,250
Canyon Villas....................4,104,000
Grande Vista.....................3,775,500
Willow Ridge Lodge...............3,026,500
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.......2,967,500
Maui Ocean Club Sequel...........2,719,750
Shadow Ridge II..................2,493,000
Ocean Watch......................2,263,750
Harbour Lake.....................1,983,250
Ocean Pointe.....................1,311,000
Shadow Ridge.......................956,250
Desert Springs II..................721,750
Lakeshore Reserve..................720,250
Fairway Villas.....................605,750
Kauai Beach Club...................601,750
Waiohai............................586,750
Cypress Harbour....................577,250
Surfwatch..........................357,250
BeachPlace Towers..................303,750
Mountain Side......................297,750
Desert Springs I...................277,000
Sabal Palms........................258,000
Villas at Doral....................232,500
Barony Beach Club..................224,500
Royal Palms........................215,750
Legends Edge.......................205,500
Mountain Valley Lodge..............183,500
Manor Club.........................169,500
Summit Watch.......................161,250
Manor Club Sequel..................147,000
Harbour Pointe.....................115,500
Grande Ocean.......................104,000
Imperial Palms......................94,750
Monarch at Sea Pines................65,000
Sunset Pointe.......................49,500
Harbour Club........................31,750
Heritage Club.......................14,500
*Grand Total....................137,461,250*


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> Here is the latest breakdown of points by property. One piece of news is that there is a new resort in the trust; Mountain Valley Lodge. There are actually 137MM points in the trust. They didn't record the notices in the proper order thus the last one recorded did not contain the final cumulative total amount of points in the trust.
> 
> *Resort........................Trust Points*
> Newport Coast...................23,422,750
> Kalanipu'u......................17,086,500
> Timber Lodge....................15,224,500
> Crystal Shores...................9,277,500
> Ko'Olina.........................9,249,750
> Maui Ocean Club..................8,815,750
> Ritz Carlton Club - Vail.........7,496,000
> Grand Chateau....................7,359,000
> Oceana Palms.....................6,607,250
> Canyon Villas....................4,104,000
> Grande Vista.....................3,775,500
> Willow Ridge Lodge...............3,026,500
> Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.......2,967,500
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel...........2,719,750
> Shadow Ridge II..................2,493,000
> Ocean Watch......................2,263,750
> Harbour Lake.....................1,983,250
> Ocean Pointe.....................1,311,000
> Shadow Ridge.......................956,250
> Desert Springs II..................721,750
> Lakeshore Reserve..................720,250
> Fairway Villas.....................605,750
> Kauai Beach Club...................601,750
> Waiohai............................586,750
> Cypress Harbour....................577,250
> Surfwatch..........................357,250
> BeachPlace Towers..................303,750
> Mountain Side......................297,750
> Desert Springs I...................277,000
> Sabal Palms........................258,000
> Villas at Doral....................232,500
> Barony Beach Club..................224,500
> Royal Palms........................215,750
> Legends Edge.......................205,500
> Mountain Valley Lodge..............183,500
> Manor Club.........................169,500
> Summit Watch.......................161,250
> Manor Club Sequel..................147,000
> Harbour Pointe.....................115,500
> Grande Ocean.......................104,000
> Imperial Palms......................94,750
> Monarch at Sea Pines................65,000
> Sunset Pointe.......................49,500
> Harbour Club........................31,750
> Heritage Club.......................14,500
> *Grand Total....................137,461,250*



Dioxide,

Fantastic -- thank you for doing this -- and for catching the new total points.

Best,

Greg


----------



## Whirl

I have read  many people commenting that Crystal Shores is a difficult exchange. That has not been my limited, but recent experience. As the resort with the 4th highest trust inventory ( relative to what seems like a small resort size), that may partially explain why it has not proven as difficult as anticipated. 

Now, that said, I have no insight into what relative demand is and if it still outstrips the supply ( possible ) or if the weeks are high demand or low demand weeks in the season. If they are all lower/off season ( as I have previously observed with the Hilton Head resorts...)  then exchanges may still be tough, despite what appears to be significant trust inventory. 


Just curious really, about others' thoughts.  Not sure if I am interpreting this correctly.

Also, how did they get this inventory, was it unsold weeks when they went to the DC plan?  If so, then that likely confirms they are largely off season.


----------



## dioxide45

Whirl said:


> I have read  many people commenting that Crystal Shores is a difficult exchange. That has not been my limited, but recent experience. As the resort with the 4th highest trust inventory ( relative to what seems like a small resort size), that may partially explain why it has not proven as difficult as anticipated.
> 
> Now, that said, I have no insight into what relative demand is and if it still outstrips the supply ( possible ) or if the weeks are high demand or low demand weeks in the season. If they are all lower/off season ( as I have previously observed with the Hilton Head resorts...)  then exchanges may still be tough, despite what appears to be significant trust inventory.
> 
> 
> Just curious really, about others' thoughts.  Not sure if I am interpreting this correctly.
> 
> Also, how did they get this inventory, was it unsold weeks when they went to the DC plan?  If so, then that likely confirms they are largely off season.



Crystal Shores is a difficult exchange through II, but getting inventory through DC seems to be rather easy, at least it was for us. Those resorts with a lot of inventory in the trust will quickly find themselves to be plentiful in the exchange company. Whenever a trust owner wants to trade for non trust inventory, Marriott is going to place something in from the trust in the exchange company. This is most likely to be from those resorts heavy in trust inventory. There is no way demand from trust owners can fill all that trust inventory. A lot of it probably also finds itself to II via bulk deposits.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> Here is the latest breakdown of points by property. One piece of news is that there is a new resort in the trust; Mountain Valley Lodge. There are actually 137MM points in the trust. They didn't record the notices in the proper order thus the last one recorded did not contain the final cumulative total amount of points in the trust. ...



Thanks again, Dioxide.  Down to two now with no conveyances, Custom House Tower and StreamSide.  (No comment, just a note to make it easy to find.)


----------



## sparty

dioxide45 said:


> I think they recently completed construction on two other buildings at Kauai Lagoons, that likely is the source of those 6MM points.



6 million seems very low given it was 52 villas they brought on-line. I  would anticipate it would be closer to 17 million... Maybe more is on the way, or Marriott is holding back? Why?


----------



## dioxide45

I had one of the Maui Ocean Club notices categorized under Maui Ocean Club Sequel. Thanks GregT for catching that. I have also added the percentage of the trust for each resort.

*Resort............................Total.......Percentage*
Newport Coast..................23,422,750.......17.04%
Kalanipu'u.....................17,086,500.......12.43%
Timber Lodge...................15,224,500.......11.08%
Crystal Shores..................9,277,500.......6.75%
Ko'Olina........................9,249,750.......6.73%
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail........7,496,000.......5.45%
Grand Chateau...................7,359,000.......5.35%
Oceana Palms....................6,607,250.......4.81%
Maui Ocean Club Sequel..........6,325,500.......4.60%
Maui Ocean Club.................5,210,000.......3.79%
Canyon Villas...................4,104,000.......2.99%
Grande Vista....................3,775,500.......2.75%
Willow Ridge Lodge..............3,026,500.......2.20%
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe......2,967,500.......2.16%
Shadow Ridge II.................2,493,000.......1.81%
Ocean Watch.....................2,263,750.......1.65%
Harbour Lake....................1,983,250.......1.44%
Ocean Pointe....................1,311,000.......0.95%
Shadow Ridge......................956,250.......0.70%
Desert Springs II.................721,750.......0.53%
Lakeshore Reserve.................720,250.......0.52%
Fairway Villas....................605,750.......0.44%
Kauai Beach Club..................601,750.......0.44%
Waiohai...........................586,750.......0.43%
Cypress Harbour...................577,250.......0.42%
Surfwatch.........................357,250.......0.26%
BeachPlace Towers.................303,750.......0.22%
Mountain Side.....................297,750.......0.22%
Desert Springs I..................277,000.......0.20%
Sabal Palms.......................258,000.......0.19%
Villas at Doral...................232,500.......0.17%
Barony Beach Club.................224,500.......0.16%
Royal Palms.......................215,750.......0.16%
Legends Edge......................205,500.......0.15%
Mountain Valley Lodge.............183,500.......0.13%
Manor Club........................169,500.......0.12%
Summit Watch......................161,250.......0.12%
Manor Club Sequel.................147,000.......0.11%
Harbour Pointe....................115,500.......0.08%
Grande Ocean......................104,000.......0.08%
Imperial Palms.....................94,750.......0.07%
Monarch at Sea Pines...............65,000.......0.05%
Sunset Pointe......................49,500.......0.04%
Harbour Club.......................31,750.......0.02%
Heritage Club......................14,500.......0.01%
*Grand Total...................137,461,250.....100.00%*


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> I had one of the Maui Ocean Club notices categorized under Maui Ocean Club Sequel. Thanks GregT for catching that. I have also added the percentage of the trust for each resort.
> 
> *Resort............................Total.......Percentage*
> Newport Coast..................23,422,750.......17.04%
> Kalanipu'u.....................17,086,500.......12.43%
> Timber Lodge...................15,224,500.......11.08%
> Crystal Shores..................9,277,500.......6.75%
> Ko'Olina........................9,249,750.......6.73%
> Ritz Carlton Club - Vail........7,496,000.......5.45%
> Grand Chateau...................7,359,000.......5.35%
> Oceana Palms....................6,607,250.......4.81%
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel..........6,325,500.......4.60%
> Maui Ocean Club.................5,210,000.......3.79%
> Canyon Villas...................4,104,000.......2.99%
> Grande Vista....................3,775,500.......2.75%
> Willow Ridge Lodge..............3,026,500.......2.20%
> Grand Residence Lake Tahoe......2,967,500.......2.16%
> Shadow Ridge II.................2,493,000.......1.81%
> Ocean Watch.....................2,263,750.......1.65%
> Harbour Lake....................1,983,250.......1.44%
> Ocean Pointe....................1,311,000.......0.95%
> Shadow Ridge......................956,250.......0.70%
> Desert Springs II.................721,750.......0.53%
> Lakeshore Reserve.................720,250.......0.52%
> Fairway Villas....................605,750.......0.44%
> Kauai Beach Club..................601,750.......0.44%
> Waiohai...........................586,750.......0.43%
> Cypress Harbour...................577,250.......0.42%
> Surfwatch.........................357,250.......0.26%
> BeachPlace Towers.................303,750.......0.22%
> Mountain Side.....................297,750.......0.22%
> Desert Springs I..................277,000.......0.20%
> Sabal Palms.......................258,000.......0.19%
> Villas at Doral...................232,500.......0.17%
> Barony Beach Club.................224,500.......0.16%
> Royal Palms.......................215,750.......0.16%
> Legends Edge......................205,500.......0.15%
> Mountain Valley Lodge.............183,500.......0.13%
> Manor Club........................169,500.......0.12%
> Summit Watch......................161,250.......0.12%
> Manor Club Sequel.................147,000.......0.11%
> Harbour Pointe....................115,500.......0.08%
> Grande Ocean......................104,000.......0.08%
> Imperial Palms.....................94,750.......0.07%
> Monarch at Sea Pines...............65,000.......0.05%
> Sunset Pointe......................49,500.......0.04%
> Harbour Club.......................31,750.......0.02%
> Heritage Club......................14,500.......0.01%
> *Grand Total...................137,461,250.....100.00%*



Dioxide,

Thanks again for compiling this -- it is very valuable to the TUG/Marriott timeshare community.

What is interesting to me is the sheer quantity of Hawaiian inventory in the Trust -- primarly Kauai Lagoons/Maui Ocean Club/Ko Olina.

As per early in this thread, it suggests that points users will be able to easily access these properties.  It will be interesting to see if ROFR is more active on the other properties (ie Waiohai/Kauai Beach Club) versus these three properties, but that's speculation for a different thread.

Again, thanks for compiling this, and we'll keep an eye out for future filings.

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

*Some Facts About the Trust*

With assistance from GregT, I have been able to inventory the entire trust. This entailed identifying all the weeks within the trust, the resort, and season. In some cases I was able to identify the view and unit size, but this wasn't the case for all resorts/weeks. I also found a few errors in some of the conveyance documents (weeks conveyed more than once, missing week numbers, etc). This was all captured from public records of the recorded conveyance notices.

There are a total of 40,678 weeks conveyed to the trust (not including Grand Residence). This is really a small percentage of all owner/trust inventory combined. The trust is mainly made up of inventory from Florida, Hawaii, and California. Which makes sense since this is where many of the newer resorts were that were not sold out. 

Here is the breakdown by state; CA 34.0%, HI 19.5%, FL 19.3%, NV 7.2%, MO 4.9%, SC 4.8%, AZ 4.3%, CO 4.0%, NJ 1.1%, UT 0.6%, VA 0.4%

It is surprising how few weeks the trust actually owns in South Carolina given the number of resorts there. The trust only has 1965 weeks from SC resorts. Only 223 are summer, platinum, or platinum plus. So the trust really has to rely on owner conversions to points (DC or MR) or exchanges in to II to get inventory for point based reservations in SC.

Unfortunately I don't have counts of total intervals at each resort, so there is no way for me to identify what percentage of ownership the trust has at each resort.


----------



## Cmore

GregT and Dioxide,
Ditto's on the Thank you for your work compiling this information.  It is very interesting and ceertainly provides insite on where to look for inventory.   I am an enthusiastic DC points user, but also keep a little dry powder in II, so I can use the best source for trades or adding points days to II trades, so far so good.

Again, thanks for the various contributions you guys make.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> With assistance from GregT, I have been able to inventory the entire trust. This entailed identifying all the weeks within the trust, the resort, and season. In some cases I was able to identify the view and unit size, but this wasn't the case for all resorts/weeks. I also found a few errors in some of the conveyance documents (weeks conveyed more than once, missing week numbers, etc). This was all captured from public records of the recorded conveyance notices.
> 
> There are a total of 40,678 weeks conveyed to the trust (not including Grand Residence). This is really a small percentage of all owner/trust inventory combined. The trust is mainly made up of inventory from Florida, Hawaii, and California. Which makes sense since this is where many of the newer resorts were that were not sold out.
> 
> Here is the breakdown by state; CA 34.0%, HI 19.5%, FL 19.3%, NV 7.2%, MO 4.9%, SC 4.8%, AZ 4.3%, CO 4.0%, NJ 1.1%, UT 0.6%, VA 0.4%
> 
> It is surprising how few weeks the trust actually owns in South Carolina given the number of resorts there. The trust only has 1965 weeks from SC resorts. Only 223 are summer, platinum, or platinum plus. So the trust really has to rely on owner conversions to points (DC or MR) or exchanges in to II to get inventory for point based reservations in SC.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have counts of intervals by resort, so there is no way for me to identify what percentage of ownership the trust has at each resort.



Dioxide,

Thank you for the kind comments, but you've truly done the vast majority of this -- thank you!

It is interesting that there are 40K weeks in the Trust -- compared to the 720K(??) total weeks in the system?  A small fraction indeed.

Granted, they are good weeks in the Trust, but they are limited.

Interesting to see what gets added in the future -- and thanks again for doing this!

Best,

Greg


----------



## ral

In post #161, the entry 20120058912 Ritz-Carlton - Vail seems to point to Document 20120058330 Desert Springs 1.

Thank you for putting together this listing. I'm sure it was a monumental task and I am grateful that you were able to locate and share this information.


----------



## dioxide45

*More Inventory Added*

On 8/1/2012 it appears that MVCI added more inventory to the trust. I don't have the time tonight to go through it all but will do so at some point in the near future.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> On 8/1/2012 it appears that MVCI added more inventory to the trust. I don't have the time tonight to go through it all but will do so at some point in the near future.



Dioxide, 

Many many new filings -- I'm happy to help as before, thanks for pointing out the new filings.

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

Here is the breakdown of the newly recorded conveyances. Ko'Olina is the big one here, likely from the openeing of the new units in the third tower. That resort alone made up well over half of all the new points added to the trust.

There were 35,427,250 points added to the trust this round.

*Resort..........................Total*
Ko'Olina...................20,136,500
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail....3,135,000
Grand Chateau...............1,463,000
Grande Vista................1,345,250
Newport Coast.................831,250
Harbour Lake..................712,750
Ocean Pointe..................667,000
Kauai Beach Club..............638,250
Shadow Ridge..................614,500
Cypress Harbour...............583,250
Maui Ocean Club...............480,250
Villas at Doral...............476,750
BeachPlace Towers.............405,500
Maui Ocean Club Sequel........400,000
Timber Lodge..................324,500
Desert Springs II.............317,250
Waiohai.......................266,750
Kalanipu'u....................222,500
Fairway Villas................213,500
Desert Springs I..............178,750
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe....166,500
Canyon Villas.................160,750
Barony Beach Club.............155,000
Ocean Watch...................148,500
Mountain Side.................147,750
Lakeshore Reserve.............146,250
Legends Edge..................115,750
Surfwatch.....................109,250
Sabal Palms...................102,250
Royal Palms....................93,250
Grande Ocean...................84,750
Willow Ridge Lodge.............84,250
Monarch at Sea Pines...........81,750
Summit Watch...................77,750
Imperial Palms.................65,250
Shadow Ridge II................65,250
Oceana Palms...................61,000
Manor Club.....................34,500
Mountain Valley Lodge..........31,750
Crystal Shores.................25,250
Harbour Pointe.................19,750
Manor Club Sequel..............13,000
Harbour Club...................12,250
Heritage Club...................6,500
Shadow Ridgew...................3,250
Sunset Pointe...................3,250
*Grand Total................35,427,250*


----------



## dioxide45

Here is the updated breakdown of the entire trust.


*Resort.............................Total*
Ko'Olina......................29,386,250
Newport Coast.................24,254,000
Kalanipu'u....................17,309,000
Timber Lodge..................15,549,000
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail......10,631,000
Crystal Shores.................9,302,750
Grand Chateau..................8,822,000
Maui Ocean Club Sequel.........6,725,500
Oceana Palms...................6,668,250
Maui Ocean Club................5,690,250
Grande Vista...................5,120,750
Canyon Villas..................4,264,750
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.....3,134,000
Willow Ridge Lodge.............3,110,750
Harbour Lake...................2,696,000
Shadow Ridge II................2,558,250
Ocean Watch....................2,412,250
Ocean Pointe...................1,978,000
Shadow Ridge...................1,574,000
Kauai Beach Club...............1,240,000
Cypress Harbour................1,160,500
Desert Springs II..............1,039,000
Lakeshore Reserve................866,500
Waiohai..........................853,500
Fairway Villas...................819,250
Villas at Doral..................709,250
BeachPlace Towers................709,250
Surfwatch........................466,500
Desert Springs I.................455,750
Mountain Side....................445,500
Barony Beach Club................379,500
Sabal Palms......................360,250
Legends Edge.....................321,250
Royal Palms......................309,000
Summit Watch.....................239,000
Mountain Valley Lodge............215,250
Manor Club.......................204,000
Grande Ocean.....................188,750
Imperial Palms...................160,000
Manor Club Sequel................160,000
Monarch at Sea Pines.............146,750
Harbour Pointe...................135,250
Sunset Pointe.....................52,750
Harbour Club......................44,000
Heritage Club.....................21,000
*Grand Total..................172,888,500*


----------



## jont

It's interesting how few points the trust has in HHI, Grande Ocean in particular.
Thanks Dioxide!


----------



## FractionalTraveler

Thanks for the update.  Interesting that only one RC property (Vail) is in the Trust at the moment.  I would have thought that more RC inventory would be conveyed to the trust in recent months.

Also, the uptick in some of the properties may be due to MVW buy-backs from property HOA's among other activity such as ROFR.

I know of one property HOA who has just recently requested that MVW consider another round of buy-backs of foreclosed units to add to the trust.  I don't know if Marriott will agree to this but it will be interesting to hear their response to the HOA. 

I suppose Marriott would want to limit these buy-backs and disclosures since this process may enable owners to be pre-disposed to dumping their units to HOA's.  Just speculation on my part but its intersting to see some of these things happening in the background.


----------



## GregT

Dioxide,

Thank you for doing this -- this is very interesting and is quite helpful to determine where reservations should be relatively attainable.





FractionalTraveler said:


> Thanks for the update.  Interesting that only one RC property (Vail) is in the Trust at the moment.  I would have thought that more RC inventory would be conveyed to the trust in recent months.



I am curious to see what Marriott does in the future with the RC properties.  They've created a bit of a predicament for themselves by depositing Vail at the high point values based upon the old chart.  Now they've decreased the points requirements at other properties -- but kept Vail the same.  Presumably, they are stuck with the old point chart for Vail because they used it when valuing the weeks that were deposited into the Trust?

I don't know how much unsold inventory exists at the other properties, but they may not want to permanently commit to today's point requirements.

So how many Trust Points do you place on a St. Thomas week when you put it in the Trust?  New chart?  Old chart?  Tomorrow's chart?   

And are they willing to permanently commit that property to the Marriott systemby depositing it in the Trust, or retain it separately as some Collection?

I may be totally off, but I am curious.  

Best,

Greg


----------



## jimf41

Thanks for posting and keeping track of this. One question, what resort is Kalanipu'u?


----------



## FractionalTraveler

jimf41 said:


> Thanks for posting and keeping track of this. One question, what resort is Kalanipu'u?



That would be: Marriott's Kauai Lagoons - Kalanipu'u


----------



## jimf41

FractionalTraveler said:


> That would be: Marriott's Kauai Lagoons - Kalanipu'u



Thanks FT.


----------



## gblotter

dioxide45 said:


> Here is the updated breakdown of the entire trust.
> 
> *Resort.............................Total*
> Lakeshore Reserve................866,500


I am surprised to see so little in the trust for Lakeshore Reserve.  I would have expected a lot of unsold inventory at that location because it is so new.


----------



## dioxide45

gblotter said:


> I am surprised to see so little in the trust for Lakeshore Reserve.  I would have expected a lot of unsold inventory at that location because it is so new.



From what I read on here, Lakeshore Reserve actually had very good sales and was ahead of expectation. They only opened four buildings so far. There were several more planned that got put on hold when the market dropped. If they ever build the additional buildings, those will all go to the trust and that number of points will grow significantly.


----------



## ral

I don't see Frenchman's Cove on the updated list. Does that indicate that there is presently no trust inventory at this property? Is it more a function of local restrictions on inventory being placed into a trust rather than being completely sold out?


----------



## jimf41

ral said:


> I don't see Frenchman's Cove on the updated list. Does that indicate that there is presently no trust inventory at this property? Is it more a function of local restrictions on inventory being placed into a trust rather than being completely sold out?



So far MFC hasn't been able to include it's units in the trust due to ongoing negotiations with the USVI government. ROFR is also not allowed there by the USVI. At the same time they do sell trust points and they are not selling weeks anymore. At least they weren't as of last February.

With only approximately 150 units completed of the 224 planned it's possible that they completely sold out and are waiting on the last 75 units to be completed before they deed properties to the trust. The latest info on the website says they will start construction of the last units in January 2016. The original completion date was 2012.


----------



## kyfonky

After reading all posts I have several thoughts about buying a resale week, instead of points (I have been doing my "homework" before deciding); It looks like for some of my most desireble locations, such as Timberlodge and Newport Coast, DC has a significant amount of units in the Trust; still I ignore what percentage of the total resorts those points represent (i.e. 50% of the resort is at the Trust?)

As the points owners will definetely have priority to the Trust's units, it means that buying a week resale will give me low chances to get into those resorts (Timberlodge, Newport, Ko-Olina, Grand Chateau, etc), unless I buy at those resorts.

Does everybody agree with this statement?

What does Marriot do with the unsold inventory? 

Maybe buying at a resort where DC does not have enough inventory, but has a high demand, such as Barony, will give me better opportunities to get an exchange I want?

I may then go and buy DC points; but still I believe it is very expensive when compare to week resales.


----------



## slum808

Although Ko Olina and Timberlodge are well represented in the trust, a deeded week is a deeded week. You will always be able to book in the season you own. You may not be able to book the exact week you want, but owning in the trust doesn't guarantee you that either. 

While I'm a big fan  of the flexibility of a pure point system, I'm not a fan of the cost. If you plan on booking whole weeks, it doesn't make sense to buy points. 

Timberlodge ski season 5000pts/week = $2050 mf. 
Platinum ski week I believe is about $1100 mf depending on you property tax. 

Ko Olina summer week 5725 OV/week = $2347
Ko Olina Platinum week is about $1750 mf.

No if you're one that just likes to do 3 or 5 or 10 day trips, that's when points will have an advantage. 

Of the three properties you mentioned I think Ko Olina would be the easiest trade and has the highest mf, so I wouldn't buy there. 

Ski weeks are tough to get in trade, and with $1100 mf. I think this is where I would buy. You could use this week to exchange a week in Ko Olina no problem. 

Newport could cause you some problems. Even single week owners complain about not being able to get a summer week.  The other problem with newport is that they are all dedicated 2-bedrooms, so you can't lock off and exchange. If you really want to get into Newport and can't get it with a trade, you could always rent DC points. 

I don't know that much about Grande Chateau


----------



## dioxide45

*Frenchman's Cove Conveyed to the Trust!*

On August 20, 2012 two notices were recorded with the Orange Country comptroller conveying a total of 1,006,750 points to the trust for Frenchman's Cove.

20120446704 - 140,500 Points (Reaquired)
20120446705 - 866,250 Points (Developer)


----------



## dioxide45

*Updated Breakdown*

Resort.............................Total
Ko'Olina......................29,386,250
Newport Coast.................24,254,000
Kalanipu'u....................17,309,000
Timber Lodge..................15,549,000
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail......10,631,000
Crystal Shores.................9,302,750
Grand Chateau..................8,822,000
Maui Ocean Club Sequel.........6,725,500
Oceana Palms...................6,668,250
Maui Ocean Club................5,690,250
Grande Vista...................5,120,750
Canyon Villas..................4,264,750
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.....3,134,000
Willow Ridge Lodge.............3,110,750
Harbour Lake...................2,696,000
Shadow Ridge II................2,558,250
Ocean Watch....................2,412,250
Ocean Pointe...................1,978,000
Shadow Ridge...................1,574,000
Kauai Beach Club...............1,240,000
Cypress Harbour................1,160,500
Desert Springs II..............1,039,000
Frenchman's Cove...............1,006,750
Lakeshore Reserve................866,500
Waiohai..........................853,500
Fairway Villas...................819,250
Villas at Doral..................709,250
BeachPlace Towers................709,250
Surfwatch........................466,500
Desert Springs I.................455,750
Mountain Side....................445,500
Barony Beach Club................379,500
Sabal Palms......................360,250
Legends Edge.....................321,250
Royal Palms......................309,000
Summit Watch.....................239,000
Mountain Valley Lodge............215,250
Manor Club.......................204,000
Grande Ocean.....................188,750
Imperial Palms...................160,000
Manor Club Sequel................160,000
Monarch at Sea Pines.............146,750
Harbour Pointe...................135,250
Sunset Pointe.....................52,750
Harbour Club......................44,000
Heritage Club.....................21,000
Grand Total..................173,895,250


----------



## GregT

Dioxide,

Thank you for posting this - good to see MFC added to the Trust.   It looks like the Developer weeks were four complete units and a ton of silver.   The reacquired weeks were mostly silver and gold with only one Platnum.   Interesting and thanks again!

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

*Some Additional Analysis*

Here is some side by side analysis of actual week counts along with point totals for each resort in the trust.

Resort..........................Weeks...%..........Points.....%
Ko'Olina........................6,085 11.70%......29,386,250 16.90%
Newport Coast...................7,803 15.00%......24,254,000 13.95%
Kalanipu'u......................3,518 6.76%.......17,309,000 9.95%
Timber Lodge....................4,623 8.89%.......15,549,000 8.94%
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail........1,872 3.60%.......10,631,000 6.11%
Crystal Shores..................2,103 4.04%........9,302,750 5.35%
Grand Chateau...................3,529 6.78%........8,822,000 5.07%
Maui Ocean Club Sequel..........1,007 1.94%........6,725,500 3.87%
Oceana Palms....................1,617 3.11%........6,668,250 3.83%
Maui Ocean Club.................1,347 2.59%........5,690,250 3.27%
Grande Vista....................2,185 4.20%........5,120,750 2.94%
Canyon Villas...................1,833 3.52%........4,264,750 2.45%
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe......1,295 2.49%........3,134,000 1.80%
Willow Ridge Lodge..............2,063 3.97%........3,110,750 1.79%
Harbour Lake...................	1,412 2.71%........2,696,000 1.55%
Shadow Ridge II...................966 1.86%........2,558,250 1.47%
Ocean Watch.....................1,207 2.32%........2,412,250 1.39%
Ocean Pointe......................569 1.09%........1,978,000 1.14%
Shadow Ridge......................656 1.26%........1,574,000 0.91%
Kauai Beach Club..................435 0.84%........1,240,000 0.71%
Cypress Harbour...................513 0.99%........1,160,500 0.67%
Desert Springs II.................470 0.90%........1,039,000 0.60%
Frenchaman's Cove.................362 0.70%........1,006,750 0.58%
Lakeshore Reserve.................281 0.54%..........866,500 0.50%
Waiohai...........................219 0.42%..........853,500 0.49%
Fairway Villas....................570 1.10%..........819,250 0.47%
BeachPlace Towers.................281 0.54%..........709,250 0.41%
Villas at Doral...................455 0.87%..........709,250 0.41%
Surfwatch.........................289 0.56%..........466,500 0.27%
Desert Springs I..................187 0.36%..........455,750 0.26%
Mountain Side.....................213 0.41%..........445,500 0.26%
Barony Beach Club.................202 0.39%..........379,500 0.22%
Sabal Palms.......................193 0.37%..........360,250 0.21%
Legends Edge......................204 0.39%..........321,250 0.18%
Royal Palms.......................177 0.34%..........309,000 0.18%
Summit Watch......................139 0.27%..........239,000 0.14%
Mountain Valley Lodge.............241 0.46%..........215,250 0.12%
Manor Club........................125 0.24%..........204,000 0.12%
Grande Ocean......................121 0.23%..........188,750 0.11%
Imperial Palms.....................78 0.15%..........160,000 0.09%
Manor Club Sequel..................81 0.16%..........160,000 0.09%
Monarch at Sea Pines..............130 0.25%..........146,750 0.08%
Harbour Pointe....................235 0.45%..........135,250 0.08%
Sunset Pointe......................71 0.14%...........52,750 0.03%
Harbour Club.......................43 0.08%...........44,000 0.03%
Heritage Club......................25 0.05%...........21,000 0.01%

Grand Total....................52,030 100.00%....173,895,250 100.00%


----------



## dioxide45

I have been watching for a some new recordings since they recently added the new tower at Oceana Palms. I haven't seen anything new yet except for four corrective amendments they recorded for some notices related to Manor Club. I would suspect when they add the Oceana Palms units to the trust that we will see another big chunk of units added from other resorts where they have been buying back inventory.

We should be able to prove if these buybacks are truly to add inventory to the trust or not by comparing the trust inventory to any recent buybacks. Will be interesting to prove one way or the other.


----------



## ral

Looking forward to upcoming results. Thanks for your efforts in putting this all together.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> Here is some side by side analysis of actual week counts along with point totals for each resort in the trust.
> 
> Resort..........................Weeks...%..........Points.....%
> Ko'Olina........................6,085 11.70%......29,386,250 16.90%
> Newport Coast...................7,803 15.00%......24,254,000 13.95%
> Kalanipu'u......................3,518 6.76%.......17,309,000 9.95%
> Timber Lodge....................4,623 8.89%.......15,549,000 8.94%
> Ritz Carlton Club - Vail........1,872 3.60%.......10,631,000 6.11%
> Crystal Shores..................2,103 4.04%........9,302,750 5.35%
> Grand Chateau...................3,529 6.78%........8,822,000 5.07%
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel..........1,007 1.94%........6,725,500 3.87%
> Oceana Palms....................1,617 3.11%........6,668,250 3.83%
> Maui Ocean Club.................1,347 2.59%........5,690,250 3.27%
> Grande Vista....................2,185 4.20%........5,120,750 2.94%
> Canyon Villas...................1,833 3.52%........4,264,750 2.45%
> Grand Residence Lake Tahoe......1,295 2.49%........3,134,000 1.80%
> Willow Ridge Lodge..............2,063 3.97%........3,110,750 1.79%
> Harbour Lake...................	1,412 2.71%........2,696,000 1.55%
> Shadow Ridge II...................966 1.86%........2,558,250 1.47%
> Ocean Watch.....................1,207 2.32%........2,412,250 1.39%
> Ocean Pointe......................569 1.09%........1,978,000 1.14%
> Shadow Ridge......................656 1.26%........1,574,000 0.91%
> Kauai Beach Club..................435 0.84%........1,240,000 0.71%
> Cypress Harbour...................513 0.99%........1,160,500 0.67%
> Desert Springs II.................470 0.90%........1,039,000 0.60%
> Frenchaman's Cove.................362 0.70%........1,006,750 0.58%
> Lakeshore Reserve.................281 0.54%..........866,500 0.50%
> Waiohai...........................219 0.42%..........853,500 0.49%
> Fairway Villas....................570 1.10%..........819,250 0.47%
> BeachPlace Towers.................281 0.54%..........709,250 0.41%
> Villas at Doral...................455 0.87%..........709,250 0.41%
> Surfwatch.........................289 0.56%..........466,500 0.27%
> Desert Springs I..................187 0.36%..........455,750 0.26%
> Mountain Side.....................213 0.41%..........445,500 0.26%
> Barony Beach Club.................202 0.39%..........379,500 0.22%
> Sabal Palms.......................193 0.37%..........360,250 0.21%
> Legends Edge......................204 0.39%..........321,250 0.18%
> Royal Palms.......................177 0.34%..........309,000 0.18%
> Summit Watch......................139 0.27%..........239,000 0.14%
> Mountain Valley Lodge.............241 0.46%..........215,250 0.12%
> Manor Club........................125 0.24%..........204,000 0.12%
> Grande Ocean......................121 0.23%..........188,750 0.11%
> Imperial Palms.....................78 0.15%..........160,000 0.09%
> Manor Club Sequel..................81 0.16%..........160,000 0.09%
> Monarch at Sea Pines..............130 0.25%..........146,750 0.08%
> Harbour Pointe....................235 0.45%..........135,250 0.08%
> Sunset Pointe......................71 0.14%...........52,750 0.03%
> Harbour Club.......................43 0.08%...........44,000 0.03%
> Heritage Club......................25 0.05%...........21,000 0.01%
> 
> Grand Total....................52,030 100.00%....173,895,250 100.00%



Dioxide,

I missed this post the first time through -- it is really interesting the number of weeks in the trust, in addition to the total points.   These data confirm how loaded the Trust is for Newport Coast and Ko Olina, but more weeks are present at NC then KO by approx 25% -- even though 20% more points representing Ko Olina.  

Almost 27% of the weeks in the Trust are just those two properties.  This should provide confidence to us that we will always be able to access those properties with our legacy points.  Same with TimberLodge and Kauai Lagoons.

Contrast this with Maui Ocean Club Sequel -- although the points suggest it is well represented with 6.7M points, that's only 1,007 weeks or approx 19 units per week, on average.

Those 19 units can be broken by a Premier Plus who bought 1,500 points, thus making it harder for the dedicated points purchaser to visit MOC.  Perhaps the Premier Plus already has a MOC week, and bought points to get the status to add an 8th or 9th day to the trip.

Accordingly, I suspect it is going to be quite difficult to get availability in the new towers, which is interesting since I bet many of the points purchased are being sold by people who want to visit MOC (my speculation).  I'm thinking of my friend who purchased 15K Trust Points so he can go to Maui every year. 

Interesting situation.   

Thanks again for posting this -- and thanks for tracking this.

Best,

Greg


----------



## Saintsfanfl

Does anyone have a list of the total number of units per resort? And possibly even broken down further by unit type? Not just the trust, but all units.


----------



## GregT

Saintsfanfl said:


> Does anyone have a list of the total number of units per resort? And possibly even broken down further by unit type? Not just the trust, but all units.



I do not, but would love to have one if it exists.  I have collected some unit information for properties I track, but it's not a listing, it's what Marriott provides for each property (and they are on the points spreadsheet and other documents link below).

If someone does have more granular information, that would be terrific.

Best,

Greg


----------



## jimf41

*units per resort.*

I think tugger cp73 did this a few years ago. It's in the stickies under weeks owners FAQS. It's dated but maybe he's updated it but not posted it yet. I inquired about the number of units at Ocean Pointe a while back and I was told a little over 600. I don't remember the exact number but 600 was close. That sounded high so I went to a sat photo and actually counted the rooms and there were only about 300 as close as I could determine. It seems they count the lockout portion as a separate unit even though they don't sell them singly.


----------



## Saintsfanfl

jimf41 said:


> I think tugger cp73 did this a few years ago. It's in the stickies under weeks owners FAQS. It's dated but maybe he's updated it but not posted it yet. I inquired about the number of units at Ocean Pointe a while back and I was told a little over 600. I don't remember the exact number but 600 was close. That sounded high so I went to a sat photo and actually counted the rooms and there were only about 300 as close as I could determine. It seems they count the lockout portion as a separate unit even though they don't sell them singly.



dougp26364 has a post from 2009 that listed the specific number of Ocean Pointe units at 60 per main building and 65 for Kingfish for a total of 305 units and 15,860 deeded weeks.

Ocean Pointe deeded weeks per season:
Platinum - 5,795
Gold - 3,965
Silver - 6,100


----------



## dioxide45

jimf41 said:


> I think tugger cp73 did this a few years ago. It's in the stickies under weeks owners FAQS. It's dated but maybe he's updated it but not posted it yet. I inquired about the number of units at Ocean Pointe a while back and I was told a little over 600. I don't remember the exact number but 600 was close. That sounded high so I went to a sat photo and actually counted the rooms and there were only about 300 as close as I could determine. It seems they count the lockout portion as a separate unit even though they don't sell them singly.



The list by cp73 is also the only one that I am aware of. It looks like the last update was posted in 2009, so rather dated. Not sure if he has continued with updates or not. Perhaps it is something that can be expanded upon and updated by cp73 or anyone else willing.


----------



## dioxide45

Saintsfanfl said:


> dougp26364 has a post from 2009 that listed the specific number of Ocean Pointe units at 60 per main building and 65 for Kingfish for a total of 305 units and 15,860 deeded weeks.
> 
> Ocean Pointe deeded weeks per season:
> Platinum - 5,795
> Gold - 3,965
> Silver - 6,100



It looks like CPs list shows 292, though that may have been as a result of the first floor of Sailfish at one time being dedicated to the sale gallery.


----------



## GregT

All,

I found the attached in the Information Statement from SpinCo -- I believe this is comprehensive -- but doesn't show view categories....  

Thoughts?


----------



## jimf41

Great info Greg. I'm surprised that it shows Harbor Lake with 588 units to be built. I thought that was and older sold out and completed resort.


----------



## fluke

I was surprised by the Marco Island without any planned units.  I thought they were going to build at least one of possibly two more buildings.


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I found the attached in the Information Statement from SpinCo -- I believe this is comprehensive -- but doesn't show view categories....
> 
> Thoughts?



Great info Greg. While it doesn't include view types, it can be valuable data for determine what percentage of a resort is in the trust. One challenge I do see is that it looks like they may have combined the counts of some resorts; Manor Club, Maui, Harbour Point/Sunset Pointe are some examples.



jimf41 said:


> Great info Greg. I'm surprised that it shows Harbor Lake with 588 units to be built. I thought that was and older sold out and completed resort.



While it is an older resort, they did just add two new buildings about three years ago. There were always bigger plans for Harbour Lake, but with the Horizons brand not being what they wanted it to be and sale slow, they also opted to slow down adding new units. There is still lots of land available on the site and proposed buildings do show on the resort map.


----------



## bazzap

Really useful info Greg
I guess you didn't see any similar information for Europe and Asia segments?


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> I found the attached in the Information Statement from SpinCo -- I believe this is comprehensive -- but doesn't show view categories....
> 
> Thoughts?



Looking at this list I am not sure we can assume that all 169 units at Oceana Palms are completed? Jerseyfinn indicated that 72 units were opening when they opened the Sunset tower, but the attachment indicates that there are 78 to be completed units. Perhaps there are to be units where the sales gallery is now? Are all 72 units at Kauai Lagoons also now complete? Also, any idea how many of the 322 to be completed units at Ko'Olina opened when they opened the other half of the Hale Nai'a tower last year?


----------



## kyfonky

So, If I get this right and based on information from the Marriot web-site, can we assume the following?

Grand Chateau has 1,534 suites (it is huge); as the trust has 3,529 weeks, the trust might have 4.5% of total capacity? (1534/ (3,529/52) 

If I am right, Newport Coast has 700 suites; the trust has 7,803 week or 21% (a very fair amount).

Timberlodge- 473 suites; the trust has 4,623 weeks or 18.6% (also a fair amount).

Grande Vista has 1,616 suites (also huge resort); the trust has 2,185 week or 2.6%? -very minimal-

BeachPlace Towers has 412 suites; the trust has only 281 weeks or 1.3% -also very minimal amount-

Villas Doral has only 141 suites! (very small resort for the I assume current high demand); the trust has 455 weeks or 6.2%.

Ko-Olina has 949 suites and also the trust has a big amount of week (6,085) that represents only 12.3%.

Am I right? If so, the trust has a lot to do!


----------



## dioxide45

kyfonky said:


> So, If I get this right and based on information from the Marriot web-site, can we assume the following?
> 
> Grand Chateau has 1,534 suites (it is huge); as the trust has 3,529 weeks, the trust might have 4.5% of total capacity? (1534/ (3,529/52)
> 
> If I am right, Newport Coast has 700 suites; the trust has 7,803 week or 21% (a very fair amount).
> 
> Timberlodge- 473 suites; the trust has 4,623 weeks or 18.6% (also a fair amount).
> 
> Grande Vista has 1,616 suites (also huge resort); the trust has 2,185 week or 2.6%? -very minimal-
> 
> BeachPlace Towers has 412 suites; the trust has only 281 weeks or 1.3% -also very minimal amount-
> 
> Villas Doral has only 141 suites! (very small resort for the I assume current high demand); the trust has 455 weeks or 6.2%.
> 
> Ko-Olina has 949 suites and also the trust has a big amount of week (6,085) that represents only 12.3%.
> 
> Am I right? If so, the trust has a lot to do!



Realize at resorts where the units lock off, like Grand Chateau and Ko'Olina, they are counting each unit as two when you look at the counts on Marriott.com.


----------



## dioxide45

dioxide45 said:


> Looking at this list I am not sure we can assume that all 169 units at Oceana Palms are completed? Jerseyfinn indicated that 72 units were opening when they opened the Sunset tower, but the attachment indicates that there are 78 to be completed units. Perhaps there are to be units where the sales gallery is now? Are all 72 units at Kauai Lagoons also now complete? Also, any idea how many of the 322 to be completed units at Ko'Olina opened when they opened the other half of the Hale Nai'a tower last year?



Looking at some Google Images, I think the Sunset tower has 13 livable floors. With 6 units per floor, that would be 78 units added to Oceana Palms with the opening of the Sunset tower.


----------



## dioxide45

*New Conveyances*

On March 18th and 19th some new conveyances were recorded. Mostly re-acquired stuff, but some developer inventory at Frenchmans's Cove and obviously a big dump at Oceana Palms. One interesting addition is that this is the first time we have seen Streamside inventory added to the trust.

There were 33,153,500 points added to the trust this time around. The new units at Oceana Palms accounted for 14,861,000 of the new points.

*Resort..............................Total*
Ko'Olina.......................29,433,750
Newport Coast..................25,155,750
Oceana Palms...................21,573,750
Kalanipu'u.....................17,309,000
Timber Lodge...................15,884,000
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail.......10,631,000
Grand Chateau..................10,176,250
Crystal Shores..................9,373,250
Grande Vista....................8,535,500
Maui Ocean Club Sequel..........7,132,750
Maui Ocean Club.................6,373,750
Canyon Villas...................4,413,500
Harbour Lake....................3,487,000
Willow Ridge Lodge..............3,264,250
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe......3,237,500
Ocean Watch.....................2,797,750
Ocean Pointe....................2,658,750
Shadow Ridge II.................2,638,250
Cypress Harbour.................2,387,500
Shadow Ridge....................2,288,750
Desert Springs II...............1,919,500
Kauai Beach Club................1,557,750
Frenchman's Cove................1,216,750
Waiohai.........................1,215,250
Desert Springs I................1,194,000
Fairway Villas..................1,037,000
BeachPlace Towers...............1,017,500
Lakeshore Reserve.................999,750
Villas at Doral...................957,000
Mountain Side.....................738,500
Surfwatch.........................730,750
Barony Beach Club.................704,000
Streamside........................682,500
Royal Palms.......................555,500
Legends Edge......................533,000
Sabal Palms.......................495,500
Grande Ocean......................454,000
Summit Watch......................425,250
Mountain Valley Lodge.............374,500
Manor Club........................371,750
Monarch at Sea Pines..............270,250
Imperial Palms....................237,750
Manor Club Sequel.................219,750
Harbour Point.....................219,250
Sunset Pointe......................64,250
Harbour Club.......................59,750
Heritage Club......................46,000
*Grand Total...................207,048,750*


----------



## ilene13

dioxide45 said:


> On March 18th and 19th some new conveyances were recorded. Mostly re-acquired stuff, but some developer inventory at Frenchmans's Cove and obviously a big dump at Oceana Palms. One interesting addition is that this is the first time we have seen Streamside inventory added to the trust.
> 
> There were 33,153,500 points added to the trust this time around. The new units at Oceana Palms accounted for 14,861,000 of the new points.
> 
> *Resort..............................Total*
> Ko'Olina.......................29,433,750
> Newport Coast..................25,155,750
> Oceana Palms...................21,573,750
> Kalanipu'u.....................17,309,000
> Timber Lodge...................15,884,000
> Ritz Carlton Club - Vail.......10,631,000
> Grand Chateau..................10,176,250
> Crystal Shores..................9,373,250
> Grande Vista....................8,535,500
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel..........7,132,750
> Maui Ocean Club.................6,373,750
> Canyon Villas...................4,413,500
> Harbour Lake....................3,487,000
> Willow Ridge Lodge..............3,264,250
> Grand Residence Lake Tahoe......3,237,500
> Ocean Watch.....................2,797,750
> Ocean Pointe....................2,658,750
> Shadow Ridge II.................2,638,250
> Cypress Harbour.................2,387,500
> Shadow Ridge....................2,288,750
> Desert Springs II...............1,919,500
> Kauai Beach Club................1,557,750
> Frenchman's Cove................1,216,750
> Waiohai.........................1,215,250
> Desert Springs I................1,194,000
> Fairway Villas..................1,037,000
> BeachPlace Towers...............1,017,500
> Lakeshore Reserve.................999,750
> Villas at Doral...................957,000
> Mountain Side.....................738,500
> Surfwatch.........................730,750
> Barony Beach Club.................704,000
> Streamside........................682,500
> Royal Palms.......................555,500
> Legends Edge......................533,000
> Sabal Palms.......................495,500
> Grande Ocean......................454,000
> Summit Watch......................425,250
> Mountain Valley Lodge.............374,500
> Manor Club........................371,750
> Monarch at Sea Pines..............270,250
> Imperial Palms....................237,750
> Manor Club Sequel.................219,750
> Harbour Point.....................219,250
> Sunset Pointe......................64,250
> Harbour Club.......................59,750
> Heritage Club......................46,000
> *Grand Total...................207,048,750*



I have a question:   When the DC program was rolled out, Surfwatch was sold out.  At least that is what management said.  So, how can there be so many points in the trust for Surfwatch?


----------



## dioxide45

ilene13 said:


> I have a question:   When the DC program was rolled out, Surfwatch was sold out.  At least that is what management said.  So, how can there be so many points in the trust for Surfwatch?



I went back and looked at the individual conveyances to see if they were developer or re-acquired. Here is the breakdown of points between developer inventory and re-acquired inventory.

Developer.....164,750
Re-acquired...566,000

So it appears that the resort wasn't 100% sold out since they did convey some developer inventory to the trust; however, most of the Surfwatch inventory came from re-acquired weeks. Either through buybacks or foreclosure.


----------



## ilene13

Thank you for the information.  Here is another question: My guess is that the unsold weeks were gold, silver or bronze.  Then the balance were re-acquired weeks weeks which we can assume included some platinum.  Unless platinum owners change their weeks for points does that not severely limit the number of "trust" owners that can book Surfwatch during the platinum season?  Or does Marriott just look at the points that are in the trust and designate them for whatever season they want?  If that is so---some weeks owners could have trouble booking their weeks in the future!


----------



## ral

*Trust Points that have been sold?*

Is there a source that shows either the percentage or the number of points  of the 207,048,750 points that make up the trust that have been sold?


----------



## dioxide45

*Percentage of Each Resort in the Trust*

I took the number of weeks at each resort conveyed to the trust and compared that to the total number of weeks available for sale at each resort. I was able to capture the number of weeks available from the trust conveyances. Surprisingly not every resort is 52 weeks. Several are only 51 weeks and one resort only sold 50 weeks in each unit.

This is a list of each resort conveyed to the trust and the percentage of each. I was a little surprised by the total percentage of over 11%.

*Resort .......................Weeks in...Weeks at...Percentage
_______________________________Trust___ __Resort______________*
Kalanipu'u......................3518... ....3744.......93.964%
Oceana Palms....................5647... ....8788.......64.258%
Crystal Shores..................2122... ....3484.......60.907%
Timber Lodge....................4722... ...13728.......34.397%
Willow Ridge Lodge..............2179... ....6864.......31.745%
Ko'Olina........................6092... ...22256.......27.372%
Newport Coast...................8073... ...36400.......22.179%
Grand Chateau...................4034... ...23296.......17.316%
Canyon Villas...................1901... ...11076.......17.163%
Maui Ocean Club Sequel..........1064... ....7696.......13.825%
Streamside.......................683... ....4992.......13.682%
Harbour Lake....................1807... ...16224.......11.138%
Maui Ocean Club.................1562... ...16172........9.659%
Mountain Valley Lodge............359... ....4056........8.851%
Villas at Doral..................599... ....7332........8.170%
Harbour Point....................339... ....4472........7.581%
Fairway Villas...................706... ....9360........7.543%
Grande Vista....................3449... ...46800........7.370%
Legends Edge.....................318... ....4316........7.368%
Ocean Watch.....................1402... ...19448........7.209%
Shadow Ridge/Shadow Ridge II....1818... ...26000........6.992%
Sunset Pointe.....................86... ....1275........6.745%
Lakeshore Reserve................324... ....4940........6.559%
Sabal Palms......................262... ....4160........6.298%
Frenchman's Cove.................427... ....8060........5.298%
Imperial Palms...................114... ....2392........4.766%
Royal Palms......................297... ....6396........4.644%
Kauai Beach Club.................530... ...12064........4.393%
Ocean Pointe.....................758... ...17732........4.275%
Desert Springs II................825... ...20502........4.024%
Cypress Harbour.................1028... ...26520........3.876%
Surfwatch........................391... ...10140........3.856%
Mountain Side....................358... ....9464........3.783%
BeachPlace Towers................400... ...10712........3.734%
Monarch at Sea Pines.............222... ....6344........3.499%
Summit Watch.....................229... ....7020........3.262%
Heritage Club.....................45... ....1500........3.000%
Manor Club/Manor Club Sequel.....310... ...10400........2.981%
Desert Springs I.................355... ...12036........2.949%
Barony Beach Club................372... ...13005........2.860%
Harbour Club......................58... ....2040........2.843%
Waiohai..........................314... ...12012........2.614%
Grande Ocean.....................256... ...14790........1.731%
*Total..........................60355...	..510008.......11.834%*


----------



## SueDonJ

ilene13 said:


> Thank you for the information.  Here is another question: My guess is that the unsold weeks were gold, silver or bronze.  Then the balance were re-acquired weeks weeks which we can assume included some platinum.  Unless platinum owners change their weeks for points does that not severely limit the number of "trust" owners that can book Surfwatch during the platinum season?  Or does Marriott just look at the points that are in the trust and designate them for whatever season they want?  If that is so---some weeks owners could have trouble booking their weeks in the future!



Yes, Trust Members would have very limited availability if they could only book what's been conveyed to the Trust, but that's not how it all works.  Trust Members can also access any intervals that Marriott makes available through the DC Exchange Company, including Trust conveyances, Weeks owned by Marriott and not conveyed, Weeks exchanged for both Marriott Rewards and Destination Club Points, Weeks which are in default (for non-payment of either mortgages or Maintenance Fees,) Weeks that Marriott gains when Owners fail to book them, etc.  As well, Marriott is able to manipulate both enrolled and un-enrolled Weeks that have been deposited by Owners for II exchanges.  IOW, Marriott is able to access for DC usage (by both Trust and Exchange Members) many more Weeks than just those that have been conveyed to the Trust.

But despite all the manipulations that Marriott can do, they can't re-declare (re-designate) the seasons of Weeks that have been conveyed to the Trust.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> I took the number of weeks at each resort conveyed to the trust and compared that to the total number of weeks available for sale at each resort. I was able to capture the number of weeks available from the trust conveyances. Surprisingly not every resort is 52 weeks. Several are only 51 weeks and one resort only sold 50 weeks in each unit.
> 
> This is a list of each resort conveyed to the trust and the percentage of each. I was a little surprised by the total percentage of over 11%.
> 
> *Resort .......................Weeks in...Weeks at...Percentage
> _______________________________Trust___ __Resort______________*
> Kalanipu'u......................3518... ....3744.......93.964%
> Oceana Palms....................5647... ....8788.......64.258%
> Crystal Shores..................2122... ....3484.......60.907%
> Timber Lodge....................4722... ...13728.......34.397%
> Willow Ridge Lodge..............2179... ....6864.......31.745%
> Ko'Olina........................6092... ...22256.......27.372%
> Newport Coast...................8073... ...36400.......22.179%
> Grand Chateau...................4034... ...23296.......17.316%
> Canyon Villas...................1901... ...11076.......17.163%
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel..........1064... ....7696.......13.825%
> Streamside.......................683... ....4992.......13.682%
> Harbour Lake....................1807... ...16224.......11.138%
> Maui Ocean Club.................1562... ...16172........9.659%
> Mountain Valley Lodge............359... ....4056........8.851%
> Villas at Doral..................599... ....7332........8.170%
> Harbour Point....................339... ....4472........7.581%
> Fairway Villas...................706... ....9360........7.543%
> Grande Vista....................3449... ...46800........7.370%
> Legends Edge.....................318... ....4316........7.368%
> Ocean Watch.....................1402... ...19448........7.209%
> Shadow Ridge/Shadow Ridge II....1818... ...26000........6.992%
> Sunset Pointe.....................86... ....1275........6.745%
> Lakeshore Reserve................324... ....4940........6.559%
> Sabal Palms......................262... ....4160........6.298%
> Frenchman's Cove.................427... ....8060........5.298%
> Imperial Palms...................114... ....2392........4.766%
> Royal Palms......................297... ....6396........4.644%
> Kauai Beach Club.................530... ...12064........4.393%
> Ocean Pointe.....................758... ...17732........4.275%
> Desert Springs II................825... ...20502........4.024%
> Cypress Harbour.................1028... ...26520........3.876%
> Surfwatch........................391... ...10140........3.856%
> Mountain Side....................358... ....9464........3.783%
> BeachPlace Towers................400... ...10712........3.734%
> Monarch at Sea Pines.............222... ....6344........3.499%
> Summit Watch.....................229... ....7020........3.262%
> Heritage Club.....................45... ....1500........3.000%
> Manor Club/Manor Club Sequel.....310... ...10400........2.981%
> Desert Springs I.................355... ...12036........2.949%
> Barony Beach Club................372... ...13005........2.860%
> Harbour Club......................58... ....2040........2.843%
> Waiohai..........................314... ...12012........2.614%
> Grande Ocean.....................256... ...14790........1.731%
> *Total..........................60355...	..510008.......11.834%*



Dioxide,

This is terrific information, thank you for posting this.  I missed the March 24th posting, and am glad to be current now -- thanks again!

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

Another thing to realize is how little voting power weeks owners will really have at many resorts where trust ownership is nearing or over the 10% or even 5% mark. With very few weeks owners actually completing their proxies, and even those that do providing a fractured vote to a united trust vote, weeks owners end up with very little voting power.


----------



## GregT

bazzap said:


> Really useful info Greg
> I guess you didn't see any similar information for Europe and Asia segments?



Sorry, I did find the same info for Europe and Asia (but copy quality is poor -- not sure why)?

Thanks!


----------



## bazzap

Thanks again Greg and very well spotted.


----------



## StevenTing

Just found the thread.  Took a long time to read but worth it.  This is very useful since I'm in the process of completing a resale.


----------



## SueDonJ

StevenTing said:


> Just found the thread.  Took a long time to read but worth it.  This is very useful since I'm in the process of completing a resale.



Agree, this thread is valuable for a number of reasons.  It's one of several that dioxide established, that I keep linked on the toolbar for easy reference.  Thanks again for maintaining it, dioxide and Greg.


----------



## dioxide45

StevenTing said:


> Just found the thread.  Took a long time to read but worth it.  This is very useful since I'm in the process of completing a resale.



Resale trust points? If so, keep us informed of how everything works out.


----------



## StevenTing

dioxide45 said:


> Resale trust points? If so, keep us informed of how everything works out.



Sorry.  Just a resale week.  The trust points, at the price I want do not pass ROFR.  They have to be $4+ to pass and I'm only willing to spend $2.50 to $3.00 because of all of the other fees...


----------



## dioxide45

StevenTing said:


> Sorry.  Just a resale week.  The trust points, at the price I want do not pass ROFR.  They have to be $4+ to pass and I'm only willing to spend $2.50 to $3.00 because of all of the other fees...



I think in a few more years we may see trust points down in the range that you are looking for. Right now there just are not enough on the market to make resale prices very low. Perhaps MVCI will instill a floor price, but I think at some point, say 5 to 10 years down the road, there will be a glut of points on the market and even their ROFR price will drop. A lot also depends on if they also start adding inventory of their own through any new resorts. If they do, they won't want to re-acquire trust points through ROFR since they will want to sell any inventory they would be holding at that time.


----------



## StevenTing

FYI, I'm currently working on a spreadsheet to capture season, bedrooms, unit numbers, view, and number of points for each of the weeks being transferred to the trust. I've spent 6 hours today and I've almost got the first batch of trust documents in the spreadsheet that are listed in the beginning of the thread.  

Based on this, it will probably take another 24-28 hours to get the remainder of the documents in.  Once complete I will need some help filling in some missing details as not all of the trust documents indicate bedrooms or season. 

So far I have over 10,000 weeks in the spreadsheet.  


--
Sent using Tapatalk


----------



## FractionalTraveler

StevenTing said:


> FYI, I'm currently working on a spreadsheet to capture season, bedrooms, unit numbers, view, and number of points for each of the weeks being transferred to the trust. I've spent 6 hours today and I've almost got the first batch of trust documents in the spreadsheet that are listed in the beginning of the thread.
> 
> Based on this, it will probably take another 24-28 hours to get the remainder of the documents in.  Once complete I will need some help filling in some missing details as not all of the trust documents indicate bedrooms or season.
> 
> So far I have over 10,000 weeks in the spreadsheet.
> 
> 
> --
> Sent using Tapatalk



Thanks Steven!


----------



## Chad0128

Steven did you ever complete the spread sheet?


----------



## StevenTing

Chad0128 said:


> Steven did you ever complete the spread sheet?



I have not had time.  It's tedious work and its now busy time at my work. 


--
Sent using Tapatalk


----------



## SueDonJ

ral said:


> In post #161, the entry 20120058912 Ritz-Carlton - Vail seems to point to Document 20120058330 Desert Springs 1.
> 
> Thank you for putting together this listing. I'm sure it was a monumental task and I am grateful that you were able to locate and share this information.



Same thing, in post #161 the entry 20120059552 - Grande Ocean, points to the same DSV document above.

And again, thank you very much for all this effort, dioxide.  This thread is more valuable, useful for all sorts of references, than many of us might have expected.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> Same thing, in post #161 the entry 20120059552 - Grande Ocean, points to the same DSV document above.
> 
> And again, thank you very much for all this effort, dioxide.  This thread is more valuable, useful for all sorts of references, than many of us might have expected.



I think for that post, I inadvertently provided some bad links . I no longer am providing direct links to the document, but rather just updating my information and posting new points totals.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> I think for that post, I inadvertently provided some bad links . I no longer am providing direct links to the document, but rather just updating my information and posting new points totals.



No problem, what you're doing is certainly more than the rest of us are doing and still very much appreciated.  I didn't mean it as a complaint of any kind, just figured when I saw the other post with the same thing that I'd piggyback onto it.  I'm sure you'll see in the other thread why I was looking at Grande Ocean specifically.


----------



## Chad0128

StevenTing said:


> I have not had time.  It's tedious work and its now busy time at my work.
> 
> 
> --
> Sent using Tapatalk



I can imagine that it is incredibly labor intensive. I was wondering though how one would determine how many weeks are in the trust. In many of the Noa you cannot tell if the use is for biannual or annual. In florida properties I noticed that it can be either which would impact how many weeks are really in the trust. I am curious.


----------



## dioxide45

Chad0128 said:


> I can imagine that it is incredibly labor intensive. I was wondering though how one would determine how many weeks are in the trust. In many of the Noa you cannot tell if the use is for biannual or annual. In florida properties I noticed that it can be either which would impact how many weeks are really in the trust. I am curious.



Post #217 may have what you are looking for?


----------



## Chad0128

dioxide45 said:


> It would have to be a lot. Based on information posted here we know MVCI has indicated that they have a lot of inventory, and those amounts are not based on retail pricing. 87MM points is a little under $1BB in inventory based on retail prices. My guess is that MVCI has 4-5 times more inventory they are not placing in the trust.





dioxide45 said:


> I took the number of weeks at each resort conveyed to the trust and compared that to the total number of weeks available for sale at each resort. I was able to capture the number of weeks available from the trust conveyances. Surprisingly not every resort is 52 weeks. Several are only 51 weeks and one resort only sold 50 weeks in each unit.
> 
> This is a list of each resort conveyed to the trust and the percentage of each. I was a little surprised by the total percentage of over 11%.
> 
> *Resort .......................Weeks in...Weeks at...Percentage
> _______________________________Trust___ __Resort______________*
> Kalanipu'u......................3518... ....3744.......93.964%
> Oceana Palms....................5647... ....8788.......64.258%
> Crystal Shores..................2122... ....3484.......60.907%
> Timber Lodge....................4722... ...13728.......34.397%
> Willow Ridge Lodge..............2179... ....6864.......31.745%
> Ko'Olina........................6092... ...22256.......27.372%
> Newport Coast...................8073... ...36400.......22.179%
> Grand Chateau...................4034... ...23296.......17.316%
> Canyon Villas...................1901... ...11076.......17.163%
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel..........1064... ....7696.......13.825%
> Streamside.......................683... ....4992.......13.682%
> Harbour Lake....................1807... ...16224.......11.138%
> Maui Ocean Club.................1562... ...16172........9.659%
> Mountain Valley Lodge............359... ....4056........8.851%
> Villas at Doral..................599... ....7332........8.170%
> Harbour Point....................339... ....4472........7.581%
> Fairway Villas...................706... ....9360........7.543%
> Grande Vista....................3449... ...46800........7.370%
> Legends Edge.....................318... ....4316........7.368%
> Ocean Watch.....................1402... ...19448........7.209%
> Shadow Ridge/Shadow Ridge II....1818... ...26000........6.992%
> Sunset Pointe.....................86... ....1275........6.745%
> Lakeshore Reserve................324... ....4940........6.559%
> Sabal Palms......................262... ....4160........6.298%
> Frenchman's Cove.................427... ....8060........5.298%
> Imperial Palms...................114... ....2392........4.766%
> Royal Palms......................297... ....6396........4.644%
> Kauai Beach Club.................530... ...12064........4.393%
> Ocean Pointe.....................758... ...17732........4.275%
> Desert Springs II................825... ...20502........4.024%
> Cypress Harbour.................1028... ...26520........3.876%
> Surfwatch........................391... ...10140........3.856%
> Mountain Side....................358... ....9464........3.783%
> BeachPlace Towers................400... ...10712........3.734%
> Monarch at Sea Pines.............222... ....6344........3.499%
> Summit Watch.....................229... ....7020........3.262%
> Heritage Club.....................45... ....1500........3.000%
> Manor Club/Manor Club Sequel.....310... ...10400........2.981%
> Desert Springs I.................355... ...12036........2.949%
> Barony Beach Club................372... ...13005........2.860%
> Harbour Club......................58... ....2040........2.843%
> Waiohai..........................314... ...12012........2.614%
> Grande Ocean.....................256... ...14790........1.731%
> *Total..........................60355...	..510008.......11.834%*



According to the 2013-2014 budget, there are only 7342 timeshare weeks in oceana palms. Is the discrepancy because some units are biannual. How does that work?


----------



## dioxide45

Chad0128 said:


> According to the 2013-2014 budget, there are only 7342 timeshare weeks in oceana palms. Is the discrepancy because some units are biannual. How does that work?



From the No of Units at Resorts thread, there are 169 units at Oceana Palms, multiply that by 52 and you come to the 8788. Perhaps there are some weeks that Marriott never ever made available for sale?


----------



## Chad0128

That would make sense. Thanks


----------



## dioxide45

Chad0128 said:


> That would make sense. Thanks



Perhaps it would be a good question to ask the GM or BOD?


----------



## sparty

dioxide45 said:


> Perhaps it would be a good question to ask the GM or BOD?



Was there any more info on this?  My understanding is Marriott never sells 100% because of refurbishment/maintenance etc.  This was actually a Marriott brag that they didn't do 100% which results in floating week owners having a high probability of successful booking their owned week.

Seems like everyone agrees  # of units x 52 is not accurate.

An accurate number of Unit Weeks for Cypresss Harbour is 26,010. (vs 52x510=26,520) Barony I can't easily tell what the number is.

I wouldn't think the gap/margin is fixed across all Marriott resorts.  Some resorts may have occupancy margins higher than the limit due to trading, MRP, etc. so those resorts may have unit weeks higher than other resorts.


----------



## jimf41

Chad0128 said:


> According to the 2013-2014 budget, there are only 7342 timeshare weeks in oceana palms. Is the discrepancy because some units are biannual. How does that work?



I would think that's because they use a lot of units for their sales offices. When they are done selling there they will revert back to TS weeks as they did in Ocean Pointe.


----------



## dioxide45

*November 8, 2013 Conveyance*

On November 8th 2013 some new conveyances were recorded. All re-acquired stuff except for some developer Oceana Palms and Grande Vista.

I did find one glaring error when going through them this time. In document 20130595697 for the developer Oceana Palms conveyance, it indicates they conveyed 1,274,750,000. Yes, over ONE BILLION points. This should actually be 1,274,750. Looks like someone added three extra zeros to the end of that number, oops. They have the number of BIs accounted for correctly, as well as the total number of points available in the trust after conveyance. 

There were 23,417,000 points added to the trust this time around. About 10MM less than the last time.

*Resort.............................Total*
Ko'Olina......................29,579,000
Newport Coast.................25,910,000
Oceana Palms..................22,990,750
Kalanipu'u....................17,315,250
Timber Lodge..................16,303,000
Grand Chateau.................11,881,750
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail......10,631,000
Grande Vista..................10,096,500
Crystal Shores.................9,397,250
Maui Ocean Club................7,932,750
Maui Ocean Club Sequel.........7,702,000
Canyon Villas..................4,736,750
Harbour Lake...................4,609,750
Shadow Ridge...................3,943,500
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.....3,806,500
Desert Springs II..............3,733,250
Cypress Harbour................3,682,250
Willow Ridge Lodge.............3,498,750
Ocean Pointe...................3,279,500
Ocean Watch....................3,264,500
Shadow Ridge II................2,785,000
Kauai Beach Club...............2,497,500
Desert Springs I...............2,165,250
Waiohai........................1,667,500
BeachPlace Towers..............1,595,750
Frenchman's Cove...............1,362,500
Fairway Villas.................1,291,250
Barony Beach Club..............1,158,750
Lakeshore Reserve..............1,111,750
Villas at Doral................1,082,250
Mountain Side..................1,015,000
Surfwatch........................978,000
Grande Ocean.....................966,750
Streamside.......................773,750
Royal Palms......................720,250
Legends Edge.....................708,500
Mountain Valley Lodge............671,250
Manor Club.......................657,000
Sabal Palms......................634,750
Summit Watch.....................632,000
Manor Club Sequel................414,000
Monarch at Sea Pines.............389,250
Harbour Point....................324,750
Imperial Palms...................288,250
Harbour Club.....................105,000
Heritage Club.....................91,250
Sunset Pointe.....................84,500
*Grand Total..................230,465,750*


----------



## SueDonJ

Thanks for the continuous updates, dioxide.  This thread is a great resource.


----------



## jimf41

I agree. This is a tremendous resource. It takes a lot of time and dedication to compile things like this. DIOXIDE, if we ever meet at a bar your money won't be any good.


----------



## puckmanfl

good evening

looks like about 60,000,000 of the 230,000,000 points in the trust come from 3 High MF Hawaii properties... Koolina, KL and Maui ocean I and II.  Could this deleterious raise the MF's for the trust points, since they are a composite of the weeks conveyed to the trust...??  Does anyone believe there might be a MVCD subsidy in play here???  So far MF's for trust have increased from $0.41/pt to $0.45  about 10%  over 3 years, below the standard increases at most of the properties...

just curious...


----------



## GregT

Dioxide,

I agree with others -- thank you for maintaining this thread, it is terrific information and a great reference for us!

Puck,

It doesn't bother me that the Trust is overweighted on Hawaii.   I think this may work in our benefit because many of the Hawaii properties have a better than average MF/point ratio (and plus, that's where I want to travel!).

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

puckmanfl said:


> good evening
> 
> looks like about 60,000,000 of the 230,000,000 points in the trust come from 3 High MF Hawaii properties... Koolina, KL and Maui ocean I and II.  Could this deleterious raise the MF's for the trust points, since they are a composite of the weeks conveyed to the trust...??  Does anyone believe there might be a MVCD subsidy in play here???  So far MF's for trust have increased from $0.41/pt to $0.45  about 10%  over 3 years, below the standard increases at most of the properties...
> 
> just curious...



It seems that the HI properties are keeping the pp MF on trust points lower since most of those have a MF to legacy point ratio lower than the current trust point MF. The killer on trust MFs is the Grand Residence and Ritz Carlton properties. Those getting added to the trust tends to bring the MF per point up.


----------



## mpizza

Thank you for keeping us informed!

I noticed a big increase in recorded trust points for my home resort, MFV.

November- 1,291,250
March-       1,037,000

Difference -   254,250

That's a lot of weeks to be re-acquired as platinum weeks amount to 2,075 points, or 122 weeks.  Even more weeks if they are gold.

Another scenario, the original resort build-out included three additional buildings, subsequently put on hold.  Tactically, in anticipation of completing the build-out, the trust needs to have sufficient points recorded before they can sell them.  Although that doesn't fit the premise that points sold are not attached to a particular resort.

Your thoughts?

Maria


----------



## dioxide45

mpizza said:


> Thank you for keeping us informed!
> 
> I noticed a big increase in recorded trust points for my home resort, MFV.
> 
> November- 1,291,250
> March-       1,037,000
> 
> Difference -   254,250
> 
> That's a lot of weeks to be re-acquired as platinum weeks amount to 2,075 points, or 122 weeks.  Even more weeks if they are gold.
> 
> Another scenario, the original resort build-out included three additional buildings, subsequently put on hold.  Tactically, in anticipation of completing the build-out, the trust needs to have sufficient points recorded before they can sell them.  Although that doesn't fit the premise that points sold are not attached to a particular resort.
> 
> Your thoughts?
> 
> Maria



The new weeks conveyed at Fairway Villas were done in document 20130595883.

I am finding some strange things with this conveyance. There were 150 weeks conveyed, 95 gold and 55 platinum. In my research of trust filings, MVCI values a gold week at 1250 points and a platinum week at 2000. That means that they should have only conveyed 228,750 points to the trust for Fairway Villas this time around. Though they conveyed 254,250. 

I am 99% confident in my numbers, so I can't explain the difference.


----------



## mpizza

dioxide45 said:


> The new weeks conveyed at Fairway Villas were done in document 20130595883.
> 
> I am finding some strange things with this conveyance. There were 150 weeks conveyed, 95 gold and 55 platinum. In my research of trust filings, MVCI values a gold week at 1250 points and a platinum week at 2000. That means that they should have only conveyed 228,750 points to the trust for Fairway Villas this time around. Though they conveyed 254,250.
> 
> I am 99% confident in my numbers, so I can't explain the difference.



I'm confident in your numbers as well!

I'm wondering where the 150 weeks are coming from.  Presumably all unsold weeks were conveyed in 2010.  Hard to believe Marriott re-acquired that many weeks to put in the trust in the last 6 months.  

Thanks for investigating, I'll let you know if I learn any info from the GM at the resort.

Maria


----------



## dioxide45

mpizza said:


> I'm confident in your numbers as well!
> 
> I'm wondering where the 150 weeks are coming from.  Presumably all unsold weeks were conveyed in 2010.  Hard to believe Marriott re-acquired that many weeks to put in the trust in the last 6 months.
> 
> Thanks for investigating, I'll let you know if I learn any info from the GM at the resort.
> 
> Maria



The conveyance does indicate they were required weeks, not developer. So they either came from ROFR, buybacks, and/or foreclosures. My guess is that it is some of each. Since they got in to the buyback game pretty heavily recently, I can see where the weeks would add up fast.


----------



## dioxide45

A couple of odd conveyance notices.

20140080241
20140080242

MVCI didn't convey any points with these two notices, which I don't find odd necessarily as they may be correction notices. Though they don't spell that out.

However, I can't seem to figure out what they are conveying here. The legal descriptions indicate that these are EOY weeks being conveyed, I see the 1/104th in the legal. However, there is no X or E following the unit numbers/weeks in the charts on the last page. Though there is a G. Looking at some other Shadow Ridge conveyances, there are some units that have an M following them. Does anyone know what the M and G mean, one must mean Odd and the other Even, but which is which?

I have seen other Shadow Ridge notices that use the X and E designation. Here is an example: 20120410213. Any ideas why the X and E vs. the M and G?


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> A couple of odd conveyance notices.
> 
> 20140080241
> 20140080242
> 
> MVCI didn't convey any points with these two notices, which I don't find odd necessarily as they may be correction notices. Though they don't spell that out.
> 
> However, I can't seem to figure out what they are conveying here. The legal descriptions indicate that these are EOY weeks being conveyed, I see the 1/104th in the legal. However, there is no X or E following the unit numbers/weeks in the charts on the last page. Though there is a G. Looking at some other Shadow Ridge conveyances, there are some units that have an M following them. Does anyone know what the M and G mean, one must mean Odd and the other Even, but which is which?
> 
> I have seen other Shadow Ridge notices that use the X and E designation. Here is an example: 20120410213. Any ideas why the X and E vs. the M and G?



That is peculiar.  I don't know what that code is either 

Thx for continuing to track this!


----------



## GregT

All,

Marriott just loaded another 29M points into the Trust, the largest of which was units at Shadow Ridge for a little above 10M points.  These were developer units, versus most of the others which were re-acquired units.

I scanned a few of of the others and didn't see any individual properties that were high contributors, many 300K - 500K point additions.  MFC added 120K points (including two Presidents Day weeks), MOC added 470K points and MM1 added 143K points (but no other Week 26 3BR's -- I really need a second one added to the Trust someday).

Interesting stuff. 

Best,

Greg


----------



## GregT

All,

Mostly these are re-acquired weeks (in quantity), but there are three entire units deposited at Kauai Lagoons (1301 Building A, 1302 Building A, and 1304 Building A), and then many whole units at Shadow Ridge.  

They are also loading EOY weeks.    Interesting to watch the Trust mature.  Here is the link to the raw data.  The Filing # below refers to the last 3 digits of the Notice document.

Best,

Greg


Filing.....Property............Points added to Trust


732	Barony............................527,500 
733	Beachplace........................329,500 
734	Birch-Streamside...................29,750 
735	Canyon villas.....................291,500 
736	Crystal Shores.....................36,500 
737	Cypress Harbor..................1,003,500 
738	DSV I............................ 359,900 
739	DSV II........................... 734,500 
740	Douglas-Streamside................ 36,750 
741	Evergreen - Streamside............ 54,250 
742	Fairway Villas................... 438,250 
743	Frenchman's Cove................. 120,500 
744	Grand Chateau.....................662,500 
745	Grand Ocean...................... 544,000 
746	Grande Vista................... 1,668,750 
747	GRC Lake Tahoe	................... 50,750 
748	Harbour Club...................... 35,500 
749	Harbor Pointe.................... 111,500 
750	Heritage Club..................... 27,500 
751	Willow Ridge..................... 161,250 
752	Harbour Lake..................... 638,500 
753	Imperial Palms.....................75,500 
754	Kauai Beach Club................. 342,000 
755	Ko Olina...........................34,000 
756	Lakeshore Reserve................ 139,500 
757	Legends Edge......................280,000 
758	Manor Club........................220,500 
759	Manor Club Sequel.................189,500 
760	Maui Ocean Club...................470,000 
761	Maui Ocean Club -- L/N............143,000 
762	Monarch........................... 96,250 
763	Mountainside......................340,750 
764	Mountain Valley....................56,750 
765	Newport Coast...................1,128,250 
766	Ocean Pointe....................2,045,000 
767	Ocean Watch...................... 203,500 
768	Oceana Palms.......................55,500 
769	Royal Palms.......................437,500 
770	Sabal Palms.......................307,500 
771	Shadow Ridge......................667,000 
772	Shadow Ridge II....................42,000 
773	Summit Watch......................301,250 
774	Sunset Pointe.......................7,750 
775	Surfwatch.........................399,000 
776	TimberLodge.......................307,250 
777	Villas at Doral...................262,500 
778	Waiohai...........................667,000 

All EOY Units following:	

779	Beachplace .........................3,250 
780	Canyon Villas ......................7,000 
781	Crystal Shores .....................2,750 
782	DSV II ............................14,000 
783	Grand Chateau ....................157,500 
784	Grande Vista .....................126,500 
785	Willow Ridge ......................16,750 
786	Harbour Lake......................111,500 
787	Kauai Beach Club...................32,750 
788	Legends Edge ......................14,000 
789	Maui Ocean Club ...................38,750 
790	Mountainside .......................4,000 
791	Newport coast......................25,500 
792	Ocean Pointe.......................10,250 
793	Shadow Ridge.......................20,000 
794	Shadow Ridge II ....................2,250 
795	Timber Lodge....................... 4,250 
796	Villas at Doral.....................5,500 
797	Waiohai............................37,000 

Developer whole units following:	

798	Kauai Lagoons.................... 978,250 
799	Shadow Ridge II................10,319,250

Total Points Added.................29,012,400


----------



## GregT

All,

Marriott has disclosed on page 12 of their Annual Report that they have the ability (but not the obligation) to build more units at the following properties:

Property...........Units

Canyon Villas........39
Crystal Shares......152
Fairway Villas.......90
Frenchman's Cove.....66
Grand Chateau.......447 
Harbor Lake.........588 
Ko Olina............190 
Lakeshore Reserve...245
Shadow Ridge........487
Willow Ridge........282

From the filing just made for Shadow Ridge, it appears that they are building out 72 units at Shadow Ridge (of the 487 Planned), and those 72 units are worth approx 10M points.  The total of all possible units is just below 2,600.

If 10M points for 72 units is a reasonable approximation of what a planned whole unit is worth (and I know that is very very rough approximation, some are lower and some are higher than SR), this suggests that there are approx 360M on Trust Points in these un-constructed properties.

That's interesting -- that's alot of points, considering in the last four years Marriott has put about 260M into the Trust.

It will be interesting to see if a pattern develops of them selectively building out the unconstructed portfolio and depositing them to the Trust, providing 33%-50% of the Trust load which seems to occur every 4-6 months.   In this most recent load, with 29M points going in and 10M coming from new development, that does suggest lots of ROFR/buy-backs, coupled with some new development.

Clearly, some properties may be determined to not be worth the development cost, if there are too many Bronze/Silver weeks that would dilute the Gold/Platinums that would be put into the Trust, but interesting to think about.

Best,

Greg


----------



## GregT

GregT said:


> That is peculiar.  I don't know what that code is either
> 
> Thx for continuing to track this!



That quote is from February 15, 2014.

I just wanted to point out that I have been dominating this thread since February.  

That has to be some type of record.....   ...........


----------



## dioxide45

I will break your string of dominance here Greg. I wonder if Marriott perhaps bought back those three residential units at Kauai Lagoons? I haven't had a chance to check out the conveyances yet but the number three strangely matches up to the number of whole ownership condos sold at Kauai Lagoons. We will have to see if the listing on page 24 shows the number of residential units change at Kauai Lagoons in the next annual report.

If this is indeed the case, it means the resort gets much closer to a pure trust resort.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> I will break your string of dominance here Greg. I wonder if Marriott perhaps bought back those three residential units at Kauai Lagoons? I haven't had a chance to check out the conveyances yet but the number three strangely matches up to the number of whole ownership condos sold at Kauai Lagoons. We will have to see if the listing on page 24 shows the number of residential units change at Kauai Lagoons in the next annual report.
> 
> If this is indeed the case, it means the resort gets much closer to a pure trust resort.



Dioxide, that makes sense -- will be interesting to see if this becomes a pure trust resort.  Did they ever sell weeks at this property?

I look forward to your comments on the other filings.

Best,

Greg


----------



## TheTimeTraveler

GregT said:


> Dioxide, that makes sense -- will be interesting to see if this becomes a pure trust resort.  Did they ever sell weeks at this property?
> 
> I look forward to your comments on the other filings.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg






Greg;  Yes they did sell some weeks at K. Lagoons.  I remember a guy was trying to unload his developer week for about $60K sometime around 2010.

I was interested;  but not at that price.






.


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> Dioxide, that makes sense -- will be interesting to see if this becomes a pure trust resort.  Did they ever sell weeks at this property?
> 
> I look forward to your comments on the other filings.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



According to my records, 30 weeks from 1101 and 41 weeks from unit 1102 were sold as weeks. One unit was reacquired in unit 1102. I find this rather odd since Kauai Lagoons was apparently sold as fixed week. I would have expected to see the units much more fragmented as many people would have wanted to buy prime weeks?


----------



## n777lt

Greg, thank you for all this! Do you think (can you tell) that the MOC units added were from the auction earlier this year, and if so whether all have gone to the trust, or whether they are reselling any?


----------



## GregT

n777lt said:


> Greg, thank you for all this! Do you think (can you tell) that the MOC units added were from the auction earlier this year, and if so whether all have gone to the trust, or whether they are reselling any?



I went back to the foreclosure list and picked 5 from the list -- none of them were in this Trust filing, so we should see another load of weeks in approx 4-6 months hit the Trust, that I expect will include those foreclosed weeks.

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> I went back to the foreclosure list and picked 5 from the list -- none of them were in this Trust filing, so we should see another load of weeks in approx 4-6 months hit the Trust, that I expect will include those foreclosed weeks.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



My guess is that the foreclosure sale was pretty close to the date of the latest conveyance. Probably didn't have enough time to get all the accounting work done to add them to the trust for this conveyance. They may not even have the foreclosure deeds signed and recorded yet.


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> Marriott has disclosed on page 12 of their Annual Report that they have the ability (but not the obligation) to build more units at the following properties:
> 
> Property...........Units
> 
> Canyon Villas........39
> Crystal Shares......152
> Fairway Villas.......90
> Frenchman's Cove.....66
> Grand Chateau.......447
> Harbor Lake.........588
> Ko Olina............190
> Lakeshore Reserve...245
> Shadow Ridge........487
> Willow Ridge........282
> 
> From the filing just made for Shadow Ridge, it appears that they are building out 72 units at Shadow Ridge (of the 487 Planned), and those 72 units are worth approx 10M points.  The total of all possible units is just below 2,600.
> 
> If 10M points for 72 units is a reasonable approximation of what a planned whole unit is worth (and I know that is very very rough approximation, some are lower and some are higher than SR), this suggests that there are approx 360M on Trust Points in these un-constructed properties.
> 
> That's interesting -- that's alot of points, considering in the last four years Marriott has put about 260M into the Trust.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if a pattern develops of them selectively building out the unconstructed portfolio and depositing them to the Trust, providing 33%-50% of the Trust load which seems to occur every 4-6 months.   In this most recent load, with 29M points going in and 10M coming from new development, that does suggest lots of ROFR/buy-backs, coupled with some new development.
> 
> Clearly, some properties may be determined to not be worth the development cost, if there are too many Bronze/Silver weeks that would dilute the Gold/Platinums that would be put into the Trust, but interesting to think about.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



Actually, comparing this information to the past data I have, it shows that they perhaps actually built out three additional units at Kauai Lagoons. My past data had 72 Vacation Ownership Units and 3 Residences. The new information shows 75 Vacation Ownership Units and still 3 Residences. So it doesn't look like they converted those 3 residences to vacation ownership in the trust. Strangely, on the past information it does not show that they still had 3 additional planned units.

While this explains the three units, it doesn't explain where they came from. Perhaps an error in past investor information? Was there a former sales gallery that the converted to units but didn't account as additional planned units?


----------



## dioxide45

*Total Points Per Resort*

*Resort...........................Total..*
Ko'Olina......................29,613,750
Newport Coast.................27,063,750
Oceana Palms..................23,046,250
Kalanipu'u....................18,293,500
Timber Lodge..................16,614,500
Shadow Ridge II...............13,148,500
Grand Chateau.................12,701,750
Grande Vista..................11,891,750
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail......10,631,000
Crystal Shores.................9,436,500
Maui Ocean Club................8,442,250
Maui Ocean Club Sequel.........7,845,250
Harbour Lake...................5,359,750
Ocean Pointe...................5,334,750
Canyon Villas..................5,035,250
Cypress Harbour................4,685,750
Shadow Ridge...................4,630,500
Desert Springs II..............4,481,750
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.....3,857,250
Willow Ridge Lodge.............3,677,750
Ocean Watch....................3,468,000
Kauai Beach Club...............2,856,500
Desert Springs I...............2,524,750
Waiohai........................2,371,500
BeachPlace Towers..............1,928,500
Fairway Villas.................1,729,500
Barony Beach Club..............1,686,250
Grande Ocean...................1,510,750
Frenchman's Cove...............1,483,000
Surfwatch......................1,377,000
Villas at Doral................1,350,250
Mountain Side..................1,323,750
Lakeshore Reserve..............1,251,250
Royal Palms....................1,157,750
Legends Edge...................1,002,500
Sabal Palms......................942,250
Summit Watch.....................933,250
Streamside.......................894,500
Manor Club.......................877,500
Mountain Valley Lodge............728,000
Manor Club Sequel................603,000
Monarch at Sea Pines.............485,500
Harbour Point....................436,250
Imperial Palms...................363,750
Harbour Club.....................140,500
Heritage Club....................118,750
Sunset Pointe.....................92,250
*Grand Total..................259,428,250*


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> *Resort...........................Total..*
> Ko'Olina......................29,613,750
> Newport Coast.................27,063,750
> Oceana Palms..................23,046,250
> Kalanipu'u....................18,293,500
> Timber Lodge..................16,614,500
> Shadow Ridge II...............13,148,500
> Grand Chateau.................12,701,750
> Grande Vista..................11,891,750
> Ritz Carlton Club - Vail......10,631,000
> Crystal Shores.................9,436,500
> Maui Ocean Club................8,442,250
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel.........7,845,250
> Harbour Lake...................5,359,750
> Ocean Pointe...................5,334,750
> Canyon Villas..................5,035,250
> Cypress Harbour................4,685,750
> Shadow Ridge...................4,630,500
> Desert Springs II..............4,481,750
> Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.....3,857,250
> Willow Ridge Lodge.............3,677,750
> Ocean Watch....................3,468,000
> Kauai Beach Club...............2,856,500
> Desert Springs I...............2,524,750
> Waiohai........................2,371,500
> BeachPlace Towers..............1,928,500
> Fairway Villas.................1,729,500
> Barony Beach Club..............1,686,250
> Grande Ocean...................1,510,750
> Frenchman's Cove...............1,483,000
> Surfwatch......................1,377,000
> Villas at Doral................1,350,250
> Mountain Side..................1,323,750
> Lakeshore Reserve..............1,251,250
> Royal Palms....................1,157,750
> Legends Edge...................1,002,500
> Sabal Palms......................942,250
> Summit Watch.....................933,250
> Streamside.......................894,500
> Manor Club.......................877,500
> Mountain Valley Lodge............728,000
> Manor Club Sequel................603,000
> Monarch at Sea Pines.............485,500
> Harbour Point....................436,250
> Imperial Palms...................363,750
> Harbour Club.....................140,500
> Heritage Club....................118,750
> Sunset Pointe.....................92,250
> *Grand Total..................259,428,250*



Dioxide, thanks for this, it is a great resource.  Interesting about the three units at Kauai Lagoons, that is indeed surprising. 

Best,

Greg


----------



## Chad0128

dioxide45 said:


> A couple of odd conveyance notices.
> 
> 20140080241
> 20140080242
> 
> MVCI didn't convey any points with these two notices, which I don't find odd necessarily as they may be correction notices. Though they don't spell that out. ...



You are correct. They are correction notices but it is clear that they did not want it to be highlighted that it is a correction notice.  The first document you attached was to correct NOA 88 which was recorded in 5/3/2011. Document Number 20110231219   I located the document from your forum. However, the NOA 111, the second correction is missing. I cannot locate it anywhere - here or in Orange County website. 

It is mysterious what the corrective document was intended to do. 88A purports to correct A-1 but it is actually exhibit M that is being corrected. Why is the effective date different than the recorded date of 5/3/2011?

It is really difficult to get the variable that you need to understand the real situation. There are apparently 54,000 trust owners as of August, 2013. I estimate 30-40 percent of them are Legacy owners. In 2013, 60% trust purchasers are Legacy owners. 

The estimated weeks deposited into the trust are 42,000-46,000. However, that is quite a discrepancy from what is being reported to the Florida Timeshare agency: 

https://www.myfloridalicense.com/AdditionalInfo.asp?SID=&licid=4103046

Weeks in State Filed :  9815   
Weeks Out Of State :  8894 

Even if the state agency's website overlooked some filings-you know government, that is a huge gap. 

I do not understand the point of recording NOAs when the probative information is lacking. Specifically what are the point/week being allotted to a particular unit? Are they annual or biannual? What was the total number of weeks before these inventories are added? 

I am confused also why the inventories in the exhibits are out of order. I have worked for many corporations. You always sort data in a sequence. Also NOAs are recorded in a batch out of sequence. on the same date/ (NOAs have numbers) What is the point of making it so hard to trace?


----------



## SueDonJ

Chad0128 said:


> ... https://www.myfloridalicense.com/AdditionalInfo.asp?SID=&licid=4103046 ...



Unrelated to the Weeks conveyances topic of this thread, but is there a way to see that last filing on 6/17/14?  It might mean nothing but the "minor changes to ... component site charts ..." looks interesting?  I'm wondering if it's the 2016 version of the DC Points Chart ...


----------



## dioxide45

Chad0128 said:


> You are correct. They are correction notices but it is clear that they did not want it to be highlighted that it is a correction notice.  The first document you attached was to correct NOA 88 which was recorded in 5/3/2011. Document Number 20110231219   I located the document from your forum. However, the NOA 111, the second correction is missing. I cannot locate it anywhere - here or in Orange County website.
> 
> It is mysterious what the corrective document was intended to do. 88A purports to correct A-1 but it is actually exhibit M that is being corrected. Why is the effective date different than the recorded date of 5/3/2011?
> 
> It is really difficult to get the variable that you need to understand the real situation. There are apparently 54,000 trust owners as of August, 2013. I estimate 30-40 percent of them are Legacy owners. In 2013, 60% trust purchasers are Legacy owners.
> 
> The estimated weeks deposited into the trust are 42,000-46,000. However, that is quite a discrepancy from what is being reported to the Florida Timeshare agency:
> 
> https://www.myfloridalicense.com/AdditionalInfo.asp?SID=&licid=4103046
> 
> Weeks in State Filed :  9815
> Weeks Out Of State :  8894
> 
> Even if the state agency's website overlooked some filings-you know government, that is a huge gap.
> 
> I do not understand the point of recording NOAs when the probative information is lacking. Specifically what are the point/week being allotted to a particular unit? Are they annual or biannual? What was the total number of weeks before these inventories are added?
> 
> I am confused also why the inventories in the exhibits are out of order. I have worked for many corporations. You always sort data in a sequence. Also NOAs are recorded in a batch out of sequence. on the same date/ (NOAs have numbers) What is the point of making it so hard to trace?



Thanks, this is helpful information. I believe instrument 20140080242 corrected instrument 20110231260. The same unit numbers appear in both, but the earlier instrument has additional unit numbers. It appears perhaps that the every other year designator was incorrect. The correction has "G" where the old one has "M".

Also, my estimates show over 70,000 weeks conveyed to the trust. Not sure why such a difference between what is in the trust and what they have reported?


----------



## Chad0128

GregT said:


> All,
> 
> Mostly these are re-acquired weeks (in quantity), but there are three entire units deposited at Kauai Lagoons (1301 Building A, 1302 Building A, and 1304 Building A), and then many whole units at Shadow Ridge.
> 
> They are also loading EOY weeks.    Interesting to watch the Trust mature.  Here is the link to the raw data.  The Filing # below refers to the last 3 digits of the Notice document.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> Filing.....Property............Points added to Trust
> 
> 
> 732	Barony............................527,500
> 733	Beachplace........................329,500
> 734	Birch-Streamside...................29,750
> 735	Canyon villas.....................291,500
> 736	Crystal Shores.....................36,500
> 737	Cypress Harbor..................1,003,500
> 738	DSV I............................ 359,900
> 739	DSV II........................... 734,500
> 740	Douglas-Streamside................ 36,750
> 741	Evergreen - Streamside............ 54,250
> 742	Fairway Villas................... 438,250
> 743	Frenchman's Cove................. 120,500
> 744	Grand Chateau.....................662,500
> 745	Grand Ocean...................... 544,000
> 746	Grande Vista................... 1,668,750
> 747	GRC Lake Tahoe	................... 50,750
> 748	Harbour Club...................... 35,500
> 749	Harbor Pointe.................... 111,500
> 750	Heritage Club..................... 27,500
> 751	Willow Ridge..................... 161,250
> 752	Harbour Lake..................... 638,500
> 753	Imperial Palms.....................75,500
> 754	Kauai Beach Club................. 342,000
> 755	Ko Olina...........................34,000
> 756	Lakeshore Reserve................ 139,500
> 757	Legends Edge......................280,000
> 758	Manor Club........................220,500
> 759	Manor Club Sequel.................189,500
> 760	Maui Ocean Club...................470,000
> 761	Maui Ocean Club -- L/N............143,000
> 762	Monarch........................... 96,250
> 763	Mountainside......................340,750
> 764	Mountain Valley....................56,750
> 765	Newport Coast...................1,128,250
> 766	Ocean Pointe....................2,045,000
> 767	Ocean Watch...................... 203,500
> 768	Oceana Palms.......................55,500
> 769	Royal Palms.......................437,500
> 770	Sabal Palms.......................307,500
> 771	Shadow Ridge......................667,000
> 772	Shadow Ridge II....................42,000
> 773	Summit Watch......................301,250
> 774	Sunset Pointe.......................7,750
> 775	Surfwatch.........................399,000
> 776	TimberLodge.......................307,250
> 777	Villas at Doral...................262,500
> 778	Waiohai...........................667,000
> 
> All EOY Units following:
> 
> 779	Beachplace .........................3,250
> 780	Canyon Villas ......................7,000
> 781	Crystal Shores .....................2,750
> 782	DSV II ............................14,000
> 783	Grand Chateau ....................157,500
> 784	Grande Vista .....................126,500
> 785	Willow Ridge ......................16,750
> 786	Harbour Lake......................111,500
> 787	Kauai Beach Club...................32,750
> 788	Legends Edge ......................14,000
> 789	Maui Ocean Club ...................38,750
> 790	Mountainside .......................4,000
> 791	Newport coast......................25,500
> 792	Ocean Pointe.......................10,250
> 793	Shadow Ridge.......................20,000
> 794	Shadow Ridge II ....................2,250
> 795	Timber Lodge....................... 4,250
> 796	Villas at Doral.....................5,500
> 797	Waiohai............................37,000
> 
> Developer whole units following:
> 
> 798	Kauai Lagoons.................... 978,250
> 799	Shadow Ridge II................10,319,250
> 
> Total Points Added.................29,012,400



Greg: 

Thank you so much for posting the information. I tried locating the NOA for Oceana Palms but I could not do locate it. Were you able to find it sifting through the NOAs recorded for this date? Thank you.


----------



## puckmanfl

good morning...

interesting factoid...  70,000 weeks in the trust.  There are over 700,000 weeks in the MVCD system.  So the Trust is about 10% of inventory.  Legacy players control the other 90%... and probably 95% of the primo stuff...

curious indeed...


----------



## taffy19

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> interesting factoid...  70,000 weeks in the trust.  There are over 700,000 weeks in the MVCD system.  So the Trust is about 10% of inventory.  Legacy players control the other 90%... and probably 95% of the primo stuff...
> 
> curious indeed...


The salesman, at the Kauai Lagoons, told us that there were 750,000 deeds system wide from 1984 to June 20, 2010.

He also told us that 35% approximately is in the trust already!  I was surprised to hear that but I wrote it down.

I remember the Sales Manager, in Lake Tahoe, telling us that Marriott had held back many units and they were not sold out at some of the resorts that we assumed were sold out completely so it may be true.

The rest of my update will follow in the thread I started of the Kauai Lagoons.


----------



## jimf41

puckmanfl said:


> good morning...
> 
> interesting factoid...  70,000 weeks in the trust.  There are over 700,000 weeks in the MVCD system.  So the Trust is about 10% of inventory.  Legacy players control the other 90%... and probably 95% of the primo stuff...
> 
> curious indeed...



So if the total points in the trust is 259,428,250 and it's estimated that translates into 70,000 weeks then each week in the trust averages 3700 points. That seems to be a very high estimate to me. I think it would be around the 2500 to 3000 point range. I have absolutely no math to back up my estimate, just a gut feeling and the fact that not many weeks get 3700 points making it difficult for that to be the average.

If you accept the 70,000 figure you can't leave out the weeks that are converted to points every year. Marriott controls those also. They might not be in the trust but MVCI has almost total control over them. In any case I think MVCI controls a lot more than 10% of the total inventory.


----------



## taffy19

jimf41 said:


> So if the total points in the trust is 259,428,250 and it's estimated that translates into 70,000 weeks then each week in the trust averages 3700 points. That seems to be a very high estimate to me. I think it would be around the 2500 to 3000 point range. I have absolutely no math to back up my estimate, just a gut feeling and the fact that not many weeks get 3700 points making it difficult for that to be the average.
> 
> If you accept the 70,000 figure you can't leave out the weeks that are converted to points every year. Marriott controls those also. They might not be in the trust but MVCI has almost total control over them. In any case I think MVCI controls a lot more than 10% of the total inventory.


Now I question too if 35% approx is in the Trust already or is it a  combination of trust points in the Trust and DC points from enrolled Legacy week  owners who elected points one year like we did for 2015 but he didn't say that it was a combination of both.

Everything is left so vague and is difficult to understand.


----------



## GregT

Marriott is loading more points (~37.5M) into the Trust.   The Trust is up to 303.8M points.

A few observations:

- 25M points being added for Grande Chateau
- Most properties are adding 250K - 750K, filed as having been "Reacquired" (I interpret as a Buy-back, ROFR, or foreclosed)
- My opinion is that the higher ranges (ie, 750K) skew to the higher-demand properties 
- Ritz Carlton properties being added to the Trust
...........(St. Thomas, San Francisco, Tahoe and Vail)
- No more MM1 3BR Week 26's (looking to 2X my chances to get a 3BR)

What interested me the most was the addition of 62 timeshare segments at St. Thomas.   I think each of these are for three week intervals, suggesting that they added 186 weeks to the Trust.   These weeks are worth a total 780K Trust Points, so the math is close.

But more significantly, this is in line with the recent announcement on the Luxury collection, or whatever it was called.   Now everybody should be able to book them, and the 50% release of inventory 6 months out makes more sense.

Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


----------



## SueDonJ

GregT said:


> Marriott is loading more points (~37.5M) into the Trust.   The Trust is up to 303.8M points.
> 
> A few observations:
> 
> - 25M points being added for Grande Chateau
> - Most properties are adding 250K - 750K, filed as having been "Reacquired" (I interpret as a Buy-back, ROFR, or foreclosed)
> - My opinion is that the higher ranges (ie, 750K) skew to the higher-demand properties
> - Ritz Carlton properties being added to the Trust
> ...........(St. Thomas, San Francisco, Tahoe and Vail)
> - No more MM1 3BR Week 26's (looking to 2X my chances to get a 3BR)
> 
> What interested me the most was the addition of 62 timeshare segments at St. Thomas.   I think each of these are for three week intervals, suggesting that they added 186 weeks to the Trust.   These weeks are worth a total 780K Trust Points, so the math is close.
> 
> But more significantly, this is in line with the recent announcement on the Luxury collection, or whatever it was called.   Now everybody should be able to book them, and the 50% release of inventory 6 months out makes more sense.
> 
> Interesting stuff.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



"Luxury Property" is the new definition in the revised docs (discussed here.)  I had a feeling we'd be seeing more R-C conveyances after those revisions were announced.  And you're right, this is always "interesting stuff."  Thanks!


----------



## mjm1

Greg, thanks for your post.  Yes, this is very interesting to see things develop. Great to see more availability being put into the trust.

Sorry to hear they haven't any more of your favorite resort/week/units into it yet. Hopefully later.

Cheers.

Mike


----------



## ral

GregT said:


> Marriott is loading more points (~37.5M) into the Trust.   The Trust is up to 303.8M points.
> 
> A few observations:
> 
> - 25M points being added for Grande Chateau
> - Most properties are adding 250K - 750K, filed as having been "Reacquired" (I interpret as a Buy-back, ROFR, or foreclosed)
> - My opinion is that the higher ranges (ie, 750K) skew to the higher-demand properties
> - Ritz Carlton properties being added to the Trust
> ...........(St. Thomas, San Francisco, Tahoe and Vail)
> - No more MM1 3BR Week 26's (looking to 2X my chances to get a 3BR)
> 
> What interested me the most was the addition of 62 timeshare segments at St. Thomas.   I think each of these are for three week intervals, suggesting that they added 186 weeks to the Trust.   These weeks are worth a total 780K Trust Points, so the math is close.
> 
> But more significantly, this is in line with the recent announcement on the Luxury collection, or whatever it was called.   Now everybody should be able to book them, and the 50% release of inventory 6 months out makes more sense.
> 
> Interesting stuff.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



If some weeks at RC St. Thomas, San Francisco, and Tahoe were added to the Trust, why are they not showing in the drop down Marriott Vacation Club menu like RC Vail?


----------



## GregT

ral said:


> If some weeks at RC St. Thomas, San Francisco, and Tahoe were added to the Trust, why are they not showing in the drop down Marriott Vacation Club menu like RC Vail?



I believe the other properties will appear on the drop down list, similar to Vail, it will just take a little time.


----------



## dioxide45

Here is the breakdown of new points added to the trust on 11/11/2014.

*Resort....................................Total*
Barony Beach Club.......................399,250
BeachPlace Towers.......................285,500
Canyon Villas...........................177,250
Crystal Shores...........................37,500
Cypress Harbour.........................747,750
Desert Springs I........................535,250
Desert Springs II.......................655,500
Fairway Villas..........................284,500
Frenchman's Cove........................215,250
Grand Chateau........................26,957,000
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe...............77,250
Grande Ocean............................371,500
Grande Vista..........................1,512,000
Harbour Club.............................33,500
Harbour Lake............................635,250
Harbour Pointe...........................69,250
Heritage Club............................25,750
Imperial Palms...........................61,750
Kauai Beach Club........................626,750
Ko'Olina.................................68,000
Lakeshore Reserve.......................114,250
Legends Edge............................150,000
Manor Club..............................138,000
Manor Club Sequel.......................105,250
Maui Ocean Club.........................962,750
Maui Ocean Club Sequel..................219,500
Monarch at Sea Pines....................146,000
Mountain Side...........................193,000
Mountain Valley Lodge....................80,500
Newport Coast...........................679,750
Ocean Pointe............................852,500
Ocean Watch.............................218,500
Oceana Palms.............................26,250
Ritz Carlton Club – Lake Tahoe..........768,500
Ritz Carlton Club – San Francisco.....1,740,750
Ritz Carlton Club – St Thomas...........780,500
Ritz Carlton Club – Vail................653,250
Royal Palms.............................161,750
Sabal Palms..............................98,500
Shadow Ridge............................734,500
Shadow Ridge II..........................83,500
Streamside...............................85,000
Summit Watch............................191,000
Sunset Pointe............................15,500
Surfwatch...............................295,750
Timber Lodge............................181,500
Villas at Doral.........................127,250
Waiohai.................................600,000
Willow Ridge Lodge......................233,500
*Total................................44,412,750*

Did they open the new units in tower three at Grand Chateau yet? I didn't think they were open for occupancy until early 2015. They didn't convey Oceana Palms units until after the units were opened up. Odd that they would convey Grande Chateau before they are available to book. Perhaps they are opened and I just missed it?


----------



## dioxide45

*Total Breakdown*

*Resort............. ...........................Total*
Grand Chateau.............................39,658,750
Ko'Olina................ .................29,681,750
Newport Coast.............................27,743,500
Oceana Palms..............................23,072,500
Kalanipu'u......... ......................18,293,500
Timber Lodge..............................16,796,000
Grande Vista..............................13,403,750
Shadow Ridge II...........................13,232,000
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail..................10,631,000
Crystal Shores.............................9,474,000
Maui Ocean Club............................9,405,000
Maui Ocean Club Sequel.....................8,064,750
Ocean Pointe...............................6,187,250
Harbour Lake...............................5,995,000
Cypress Harbour............................5,433,500
Shadow Ridge...............................5,365,000
Canyon Villas..............................5,212,500
Desert Springs II..........................5,137,250
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.................3,934,500
Willow Ridge Lodge.........................3,911,250
Ocean Watch................................3,686,500
Kauai Beach Club...........................3,483,250
Desert Springs I...........................3,060,000
Waiohai............... ....................2,971,500
BeachPlace Towers..........................2,214,000
Barony Beach Club..........................2,085,500
Fairway Villas.............................2,014,000
Grande Ocean...............................1,882,250
Ritz Carlton Club – San Francisco..........1,740,750
Frenchman's Cove...........................1,698,250
Surfwatch......... ........................1,672,750
Mountain Side..............................1,516,750
Villas at Doral............................1,477,500
Lakeshore Reserve..........................1,365,500
Royal Palms................................1,319,500
Legends Edge...............................1,152,500
Summit Watch...............................1,124,250
Sabal Palms................................1,040,750
Manor Club.................................1,015,500
Streamside................... ...............979,500
Mountain Valley Lodge........................808,500
Ritz Carlton Club – St Thomas................780,500
Ritz Carlton Club – Lake Tahoe...............768,500
Manor Club Sequel............................708,250
Ritz Carlton Club – Vail.....................653,250
Monarch at Sea Pines.........................631,500
Harbour Pointe...............................505,500
Imperial Palms...............................425,500
Harbour Club.................................174,000
Heritage Club................................144,500
Sunset Pointe................................107,750
*Total....................... ............303,841,000*


----------



## GregT

Dioxide,

Very interesting to see the updated numbers and the imbalance between the properties.   I will be curious to see if the Ritz properties continue to add, as weeks are foreclosed or bought back.    This truly combines the DC and the Ritz DC, to the benefit of legacy week owners who can access the properties but without the weight of the Trust point MFs.  

Thankyou for updating this, it is valuable to the TUG community  

Best,

Greg


----------



## mpizza

Yes, thank you for keeping us up-to-date.

It will continue to be interesting to watch how the RC availability corresponds to the additional points added to the Trust.

Maria


----------



## ral

It looks like RC San Francisco was added to the trust. When I checked the drop-down menu on the vacation club site, it doesn't show up, although Aspen does. Anybody have any information on this?


----------



## GregT

Marriott did another deposit of weeks to the Trust, adding a total of 28M points, now up to 331M total points.

10M of the points came from Grande Chateau, most other properties added modest levels of points.   No interesting 2BR or 3BR fixed weeks at MOC.

Best,

Greg


----------



## taffy19

Thanks for keeping track of it.  I was wondering if Marriott had ROFRd week 12 and 13 of the 3 BR Villas on the 9th floor as that was one of the weeks I was interested in but not my husband after all the changes Marriott made.  It obviously didn't get ROFRd or you would have reported it.  

They were for sale last year March but are no longer listed on RedWeek.com.  The listing may have expired?  Who knows?  How can you find this out not that it really matters anymore.


----------



## GregT

iconnections said:


> Thanks for keeping track of it.  I was wondering if Marriott had ROFRd week 12 and 13 of the 3 BR Villas on the 9th floor as that was one of the weeks I was interested in but not my husband after all the changes Marriott made.  It obviously didn't get ROFRd or you would have reported it.
> 
> They were for sale last year March but are no longer listed on RedWeek.com.  The listing may have expired?  Who knows?  How can you find this out not that it really matters anymore.



Hi Emmy,

Those weeks did not appear, there's only one three-bedroom that was added to the trust, a week 37. I will keep an eye out for that week, that would be a great addition to the trust. 

Best, 

Greg


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> *Resort............. ...........................Total*
> Grand Chateau.............................39,658,750
> Ko'Olina................ .................29,681,750
> Newport Coast.............................27,743,500
> Oceana Palms..............................23,072,500
> Kalanipu'u......... ......................18,293,500
> Timber Lodge..............................16,796,000
> Grande Vista..............................13,403,750
> Shadow Ridge II...........................13,232,000
> Ritz Carlton Club - Vail..................10,631,000
> Crystal Shores.............................9,474,000
> Maui Ocean Club............................9,405,000
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel.....................8,064,750
> Ocean Pointe...............................6,187,250
> Harbour Lake...............................5,995,000
> Cypress Harbour............................5,433,500
> Shadow Ridge...............................5,365,000
> Canyon Villas..............................5,212,500
> Desert Springs II..........................5,137,250
> Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.................3,934,500
> Willow Ridge Lodge.........................3,911,250
> Ocean Watch................................3,686,500
> Kauai Beach Club...........................3,483,250
> Desert Springs I...........................3,060,000
> Waiohai............... ....................2,971,500
> BeachPlace Towers..........................2,214,000
> Barony Beach Club..........................2,085,500
> Fairway Villas.............................2,014,000
> Grande Ocean...............................1,882,250
> Ritz Carlton Club – San Francisco..........1,740,750
> Frenchman's Cove...........................1,698,250
> Surfwatch......... ........................1,672,750
> Mountain Side..............................1,516,750
> Villas at Doral............................1,477,500
> Lakeshore Reserve..........................1,365,500
> Royal Palms................................1,319,500
> Legends Edge...............................1,152,500
> Summit Watch...............................1,124,250
> Sabal Palms................................1,040,750
> Manor Club.................................1,015,500
> Streamside................... ...............979,500
> Mountain Valley Lodge........................808,500
> Ritz Carlton Club – St Thomas................780,500
> Ritz Carlton Club – Lake Tahoe...............768,500
> Manor Club Sequel............................708,250
> Ritz Carlton Club – Vail.....................653,250
> Monarch at Sea Pines.........................631,500
> Harbour Pointe...............................505,500
> Imperial Palms...............................425,500
> Harbour Club.................................174,000
> Heritage Club................................144,500
> Sunset Pointe................................107,750
> *Total....................... ............303,841,000*



With another 10.7M points being added to the Trust for Grand Chateau, this means over 50M of the ~330M of the Trust are Grand Chateau.  That's 15% of the Trust -- wow.

This also gives a clue on what the Trust might look like in five years -- heavily overweighted towards the Post-2010 Developed properties (Grand Chateau, Big Island, South Beach, San Diego, Shadow Ridge Enclaves II, etc).  Each of these should contribute large numbers of points as they are released.  We may see 25M in points from the Big Island alone (~100 rooms x 5,000 points/week x 50 weeks).  Shadow Ridge will also be huge because of the sheer size of Enclaves II, but I don't think they can deviate too much from the current Shadow Ridge point structure.   San Diego/Miami/Big Island, they don't have the constraint and could choose to inch up the points requirements -- huge benefit to them in terms of manufacturing inventory.

I think one day it will be near impossible to get a premier legacy property (Maui Ocean Club/Grande Ocean/Waiohai) through ROFR when the Trust is deep in everything else, but shallow in those legacy gems.    I think this would also mean that one day we will be allowed to selectively enroll our post-June 2010 weeks via some restricted method (ie, if you're already enrolled, then you can do something and add your post-June 2010 resale) because they still need that legacy gem in the system.   

Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


----------



## SueDonJ

GregT said:


> ... This also gives a clue on what the Trust might look like in five years -- heavily overweighted towards the Post-2010 Developed properties (Grand Chateau, Big Island, South Beach, San Diego, Shadow Ridge Enclaves II, etc). ..
> 
> I think one day it will be near impossible to get a premier legacy property (Maui Ocean Club/Grande Ocean/Waiohai) through ROFR when the Trust is deep in everything else, but shallow in those legacy gems.    I think this would also mean that one day we will be allowed to selectively enroll our post-June 2010 weeks via some restricted method (ie, if you're already enrolled, then you can do something and add your post-June 2010 resale) because they still need that legacy gem in the system.
> 
> Interesting stuff.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg



I agree.  I also think that as time goes on the newer resorts will generate more interest by the newer/younger owners/members who will of necessity be Trust Members, effectively blocking easy exchanges to the newer resorts by II and Enrolled Members.  Not ever to the extent that the sales reps like to say will happen (e.g. "you'll need Trust Points to get into the new resorts") because certain existing Weeks will always be high-demand and as Trust Members exchange for those they'll be generating mingling among the pools, but as time goes on we non-Trust Members will notice difficulties with exchanging to the latest and greatest.

Think of how it worked when Weeks were the only game in town.  As an example I'm thinking specifically of when Crystal Shores was the crown jewel.  Even though there were many, many unsold Weeks, MVC still controlled the inventory so that you needed a high-powered exchanger to get in through II.  That was how they generated sales.  The same could happen to some extent with Points - even though a bulk conveyance of a new resort would result in tons of inventory available for booking, MVW could limit DC Exchanges internally by using it to generate sales through Preview stays, as cash stays through MI, etc. instead of making it all available to any Points users.

It's not something to worry over, IMO, or something that makes me think I have to go out tomorrow and buy Trust Points!  But it's another thing to think about as we watch the DC mature.


----------



## taffy19

I wonder how many years it will take before all the weeks will be converted to the trust?  A generation or two or sooner?  Any opinions?


----------



## taffy19

GregT said:


> Hi Emmy,
> 
> Those weeks did not appear, there's only one three-bedroom that was added to the trust, a week 37. I will keep an eye out for that week, that would be a great addition to the trust.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Hi Greg, I wonder if these two weeks were sold but passed the ROFR test?  Not everyone reports it here or even knows about to report it here.  Would a Real Estate Broker know or a Title Company?


----------



## GregT

iconnections said:


> Hi Greg, I wonder if these two weeks were sold but passed the ROFR test?  Not everyone reports it here or even knows about to report it here.  Would a Real Estate Broker know or a Title Company?



Emmy, 

I think they must have passed ROFR because enough time has passed where they would have been deposited to the Trust.  The only 3BRs that are close to those are connecting weeks 15 and 16, and there are two different floors of 3BRs (10th floor and 11th floor) -- so those are great weeks.

I will keep an eye out for those in case they ever appear.  Do you recall what the pricing was for the weeks?

Best,

Greg


----------



## taffy19

They started very high and I talked to the broker (RedWeek) about it but they came down later.  I don't remember the prices now but took a picture of the RedWeek ad so will try to dig it up.

I believe, at the end, they were about the same price as what the re-sale office is charging.  I told my husband to offer low but he didn't want to take a chance and then ending up with nothing as we needed that particular week so we didn't rescind next door.  You know the story and we pay so much less maintenance fees now and do not have to worry about renting part of it out every year.

I would have loved to have that 3 BR condo on the 9th floor!  It is so much lighter inside than the Hyatt condos are because of the deep lanais over there but we love living outside in Hawaii which you can do in the spring.  You will find out next year in Ko'olina.


----------



## dioxide45

*Breakdown of Inventory Added*

*Resort....................................Total*
Grand Chateau........................11,569,250
Grande Vista..........................1,528,500
Cypress Harbour.......................1,295,250
Ocean Pointe............................875,500
Desert Springs II.......................856,750
Shadow Ridge............................829,500
Maui Ocean Club.........................704,250
Harbour Lake............................686,250
Ritz Carlton Club - Lake Tahoe..........633,750
Ritz Carlton Club - San Francisco.......628,500
Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas...........515,500
Grande Ocean............................453,500
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail................447,750
Newport Coast...........................442,250
Waiohai.................................435,250
Kauai Beach Club........................430,500
Desert Springs I........................405,250
BeachPlace Towers.......................388,750
Barony Beach Club.......................327,000
Mountain Side...........................305,750
Timber Lodge............................292,250
Summit Watch............................282,000
Surfwatch...............................274,750
Ocean Watch.............................258,000
Royal Palms.............................247,250
Manor Club..............................230,250
Willow Ridge Lodge......................203,750
Maui Ocean Club Sequel..................199,750
Sabal Palms.............................172,000
Fairway Villas..........................162,250
Mountain Valley Lodge...................139,250
Legends Edge............................133,750
Canyon Villas...........................133,250
Lakeshore Reserve.......................118,750
Villas at Doral.........................111,750
Manor Club Sequel.......................106,500
Ko'Olina................................102,750
Oceana Palms.............................90,500
Imperial Palms...........................80,500
Monarch at Sea Pines.....................71,250
Shadow Ridge II..........................59,500
Frenchman's Cove.........................54,500
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe...............28,750
Crystal Shores...........................25,250
Heritage Club............................23,750
Streamside...............................19,750
Harbour Pointe...........................16,250
Harbour Club.............................15,750
Sunset Pointe.............................1,500
*Total ...............................27,414,500*


----------



## dioxide45

*Total Trust*

*Resort.....................................Total*
Grand Chateau.........................51,228,000
Ko'Olina..............................29,784,500
Newport Coast.........................28,185,750
Oceana Palms..........................23,163,000
Kalanipu'u............................18,293,500
Timber Lodge..........................17,088,250
Grande Vista..........................14,932,250
Shadow Ridge II.......................13,291,500
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail..............11,732,000
Maui Ocean Club.......................10,109,250
Crystal Shores.........................9,499,250
Maui Ocean Club Sequel.................8,264,500
Ocean Pointe...........................7,062,750
Cypress Harbour........................6,728,750
Harbour Lake...........................6,681,250
Shadow Ridge...........................6,194,500
Desert Springs II......................5,994,000
Canyon Villas..........................5,345,750
Willow Ridge Lodge.....................4,115,000
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.............3,963,250
Ocean Watch............................3,944,500
Kauai Beach Club.......................3,913,750
Desert Springs I.......................3,465,250
Waiohai................................3,406,750
BeachPlace Towers......................2,602,750
Barony Beach Club......................2,412,500
Ritz Carlton Club - San Francisco......2,369,250
Grande Ocean...........................2,335,750
Fairway Villas.........................2,176,250
Surfwatch..............................1,947,500
Mountain Side..........................1,822,500
Frenchman's Cove.......................1,752,750
Villas at Doral........................1,589,250
Royal Palms............................1,566,750
Lakeshore Reserve......................1,484,250
Summit Watch...........................1,406,250
Ritz Carlton Club - Lake Tahoe.........1,402,250
Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas..........1,296,000
Legends Edge...........................1,286,250
Manor Club.............................1,245,750
Sabal Palms............................1,212,750
Streamside...............................999,250
Mountain Valley Lodge....................947,750
Manor Club Sequel........................814,750
Monarch at Sea Pines.....................702,750
Harbour Pointe...........................521,750
Imperial Palms...........................506,000
Harbour Club.............................189,750
Heritage Club............................168,250
Sunset Pointe............................109,250
*Total................................331,255,500*


----------



## taterhed

GregT said:


> With another 10.7M points being added to the Trust for Grand Chateau, this means over 50M of the ~330M of the Trust are Grand Chateau. That's 15% of the Trust -- wow.
> 
> This also gives a clue on what the Trust might look like in five years -- heavily overweighted towards the Post-2010 Developed properties (Grand Chateau, Big Island, South Beach, San Diego, Shadow Ridge Enclaves II, etc). Each of these should contribute large numbers of points as they are released. We may see 25M in points from the Big Island alone (~100 rooms x 5,000 points/week x 50 weeks). Shadow Ridge will also be huge because of the sheer size of Enclaves II, but I don't think they can deviate too much from the current Shadow Ridge point structure. San Diego/Miami/Big Island, they don't have the constraint and could choose to inch up the points requirements -- huge benefit to them in terms of manufacturing inventory.
> 
> I think one day it will be near impossible to get a premier legacy property (Maui Ocean Club/Grande Ocean/Waiohai) through ROFR when the Trust is deep in everything else, but shallow in those legacy gems. *I think this would also mean that one day we will be allowed to selectively enroll our post-June 2010 weeks via some restricted method (ie, if you're already enrolled, then you can do something and add your post-June 2010 resale) because they still need that legacy gem in the system. *
> 
> Interesting stuff.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


 

Now you're talkin... I'm hoping that someday we'll be offered a post-2010 enrollment.  But, who knows.  As the Maui situation changes over the next few years, there might be some jewels in the rough (expensive jewels) to be nabbed before they become unattainable.  Guess we'll see.  I'd certainly buy an island/mt view to get enrollment.  just sayin.


----------



## disneymom1

dioxide45 said:


> *Resort.....................................Total*
> Grand Chateau.........................51,228,000
> Ko'Olina..............................29,784,500
> Newport Coast.........................28,185,750
> Oceana Palms..........................23,163,000
> Kalanipu'u............................18,293,500
> Timber Lodge..........................17,088,250
> Grande Vista..........................14,932,250
> Shadow Ridge II.......................13,291,500
> Ritz Carlton Club - Vail..............11,732,000
> Maui Ocean Club.......................10,109,250
> Crystal Shores.........................9,499,250
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel.................8,264,500
> Ocean Pointe...........................7,062,750
> Cypress Harbour........................6,728,750
> Harbour Lake...........................6,681,250
> Shadow Ridge...........................6,194,500
> Desert Springs II......................5,994,000
> Canyon Villas..........................5,345,750
> Willow Ridge Lodge.....................4,115,000
> Grand Residence Lake Tahoe.............3,963,250
> Ocean Watch............................3,944,500
> Kauai Beach Club.......................3,913,750
> Desert Springs I.......................3,465,250
> Waiohai................................3,406,750
> BeachPlace Towers......................2,602,750
> Barony Beach Club......................2,412,500
> Ritz Carlton Club - San Francisco......2,369,250
> Fairway Villas.........................2,176,250
> Surfwatch..............................1,947,500
> Grande Ocean...........................1,882,250
> Mountain Side..........................1,822,500
> Frenchman's Cove.......................1,752,750
> Villas at Doral........................1,589,250
> Royal Palms............................1,566,750
> Lakeshore Reserve......................1,484,250
> Summit Watch...........................1,406,250
> Ritz Carlton Club - Lake Tahoe.........1,402,250
> Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas..........1,296,000
> Legends Edge...........................1,286,250
> Manor Club.............................1,245,750
> Sabal Palms............................1,212,750
> Streamside...............................999,250
> Mountain Valley Lodge....................947,750
> Manor Club Sequel........................814,750
> Monarch at Sea Pines.....................702,750
> Harbour Pointe...........................521,750
> Imperial Palms...........................506,000
> Grand Ocean..............................453,500
> Harbour Club.............................189,750
> Heritage Club............................168,250
> Sunset Pointe............................109,250
> *Total................................331,255,500*



Interesting!  The trust is heavily loaded with Vegas, Hawaii and Orlando.
Grande Ocean is on the list twice.  Typo?


----------



## dioxide45

disneymom1 said:


> Interesting!  The trust is heavily loaded with Vegas, Hawaii and Orlando.
> Grande Ocean is on the list twice.  Typo?



Thanks for catching that. Yeah seems to be a typo. When I added the new ones to my list, I didn't use the "e" on Grande. I will fix these.


----------



## dioxide45

disneymom1 said:


> Interesting!  The trust is heavily loaded with Vegas, Hawaii and Orlando.
> Grande Ocean is on the list twice.  Typo?



The new tower at Grand Chateau added over 35M points to the trust. So if they ever complete the fourth tower and with reacquired weeks, Grand Chateau will have probably creep close to 100M points in the trust.


----------



## GaryDouglas

*Percent Trust by Resort*



dioxide45 said:


> *Resort.....................................Total*
> Maui Ocean Club.......................10,109,250
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel.................8,264,500
> ...
> *Total................................331,255,500*



The last number I remember seeing for MOC was that we were over 25% in the trust.  Curious to see how that is changing over time, especially after last years acquisition of units into the trust from legacy owners that had leans that were not resolved in time.

O2-45, Can you please massage that in Excel for us...?


----------



## dioxide45

A pretty small conveyance was recorded in Orange County Florida on January 7th. They seemed to go off pattern in 2015. In prior years they did two large conveyances each year anywhere from 25,000,000 points to 45,000,000 points. Last year they did only one and this rather small one in very early 2016. This one was just under 5,000,000.

*Resort...................Points*
BeachPlace Towers.......184,000
Canyon Villas...........141,750
Crystal Shores...........15,500
Cypress Harbour.........384,000
Fairway Villas..........325,750
Grand Chateau...........543,000
Grande Vista............880,000
Harbour Lake............334,750
Imperial Palms...........44,500
Lakeshore Reserve.......130,500
Legends Edge.............71,250
Manor Club..............127,000
Manor Club Sequel.......114,500
Mountain Side...........129,750
Ocean Pointe............389,250
Oceana Palms.............52,250
Royal Palms.............100,250
Sabal Palms..............78,000
Summit Watch............213,500
Villas at Doral.........214,250
Willow Ridge Lodge......148,000
*Total.................4,621,750*


----------



## adolfo2

Thank you *“dioxide45”* for keeping the Total Trust Breakdown list current.

I’ve never seen a list/spreadsheet that has the specific week(s) & accommodation type(s) of the resorts conveyed to the trust. Does something like this even exist? 

Would prove useful to keep from searching & waiting for something which isn’t available.


----------



## GregT

Fofo said:


> Thank you *“dioxide45”* for keeping the Total Trust Breakdown list current.
> 
> I’ve never seen a list/spreadsheet that has the specific week(s) & accommodation type(s) of the resorts conveyed to the trust. Does something like this even exist?
> 
> Would prove useful to keep from searching & waiting for something which isn’t available.



Marriott has never published anything like this, I wish they did.  I keep a spreadsheet of 3BR units that get deposited at Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas, but that is a manual effort to compile.

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

Fofo said:


> Thank you *“dioxide45”* for keeping the Total Trust Breakdown list current.
> 
> I’ve never seen a list/spreadsheet that has the specific week(s) & accommodation type(s) of the resorts conveyed to the trust. Does something like this even exist?
> 
> Would prove useful to keep from searching & waiting for something which isn’t available.



One thing though, just because a specific week hasn't been conveyed, it doesn't mean it isn't available. Owners of certain interval types can deposit their own weeks for DC points. So just because something isn't in the trust, doesn't mean it is futile to search and wait-list for it.


----------



## dioxide45

*MVC at the Mayflower*

It looks like MVCI conveyed their interest at the Mayflower to the trust on March 17th. 10,748,750 points to be exact. They did not list out specific units or weeks in the legal description.

MVC at the Mayflower......10,748,750

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...64.pdf?id=DOC1876S8827.A0&parent=DOC1876S8827


----------



## GregT

I just saw that there was another deposit in July 2016 -- will try to provide more details asap.  

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

I finally got around to gathering the recorded data from the July 14, 2016 recording. Looks like a total of 32,123,500 total points added to the trust in this conveyance.
*
Resort...................................Points*
Barony Beach Club.......................927,250
BeachPlace Towers.......................947,250
Canyon Villas...........................333,000
Crystal Shores...........................83,500
Cypress Harbour.......................2,043,250
Desert Springs I........................833,750
Desert Springs II.....................1,692,750
Fairway Villas..........................325,750
Frenchman's Cove........................801,000
Grand Chateau...........................932,750
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe..............359,000
Grande Ocean............................823,500
Grande Vista..........................3,460,500
Harbour Club............................114,000
Harbour Lake..........................1,490,500
Harbour Pointe..........................143,250
Heritage Club............................99,250
Imperial Palms..........................164,000
Kauai Beach Club......................1,290,500
Ko'Olina................................261,250*
Lakeshore Reserve.......................406,250
Legends Edge............................231,000
Manor Club..............................185,750
Manor Club Sequel.......................153,750
Maui Ocean Club.......................1,872,000
Maui Ocean Club Sequel..................509,000
Monarch at Sea Pines....................293,000
Mountain Side...........................297,000
Mountain Valley Lodge...................301,000
Newport Coast.........................1,208,750
Ocean Pointe..........................1,136,000
Ocean Watch.............................711,750
Oceana Palms............................176,000
Ritz Carlton Club - Lake Tahoe...........60,500
Ritz Carlton Club - San Francisco.......308,750
Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas...........545,250
Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas Suites....243,250
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail.................81,500
Royal Palms.............................467,750
Sabal Palms.............................254,750
Shadow Ridge..........................1,859,250
Shadow Ridge II.........................138,000
Streamside................................8,250
Summit Watch............................376,250
Sunset Pointe............................50,250
Surfwatch...............................585,000
Timber Lodge............................589,000
Villas at Doral.........................620,250
Waiohai...............................1,039,250
Willow Ridge Lodge......................289,000
*Total................................32,123,500*

* It seems that Marriott Vacation Club made several errors in this conveyance, one of them being that they failed to have a conveyance recorded for Ko'Olina adding 261,250 points to the trust. While I can't know for sure that it is one conveyance missing or for sure it is Ko'Olina. The error seems to occur between instrument 20160362868 and 20160362870. The sequence of points before conveyance and after don't add up. Also since the point below impacts the sequence and makes it more confusing.

*Some other errors of note:*

Instrument 20160362869 is just messed up. It looks like they used instrument 20160009658 as a template but didn't update the items i, iii, iv or vi to show the correct amount of points and interests before and after conveyance. If you look at 20160362869 and 20160009658, you will see that the numbers are the same.
Instrument 20160362889 is also missing item iii to indicate the total points after conveyance
Instrument 20160362880 has an error in item iii. It is 1,000,000 points to high.
Instrument 20160362903 has an error in item iii. It is 1,000,000 points to low.


----------



## dioxide45

Another interesting note was the following addition;

Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas *Suites*....243,250

I am not exactly sure the difference from other conveyances for Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas. It was conveyed in instrument 20160362929.


----------



## dioxide45

Breakdown by Property

*Resort.....................................Points*
Grand Chateau..........................52,703,750
Ko'Olina...............................30,045,750
Newport Coast..........................29,394,500
Oceana Palms...........................23,391,250
Grande Vista...........................19,272,750
Kalanipu'u.............................18,293,500
Timber Lodge...........................17,677,250
Shadow Ridge II........................13,429,500
Maui Ocean Club........................11,981,250
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail...............11,813,500
The Mayflower..........................10,748,750
Crystal Shores..........................9,598,250
Cypress Harbour.........................9,156,000
Maui Ocean Club Sequel..................8,773,500
Ocean Pointe............................8,588,000
Harbour Lake............................8,506,500
Shadow Ridge............................8,053,750
Desert Springs II.......................7,686,750
Canyon Villas...........................5,820,500
Kauai Beach Club........................5,204,250
Ocean Watch.............................4,656,250
Willow Ridge Lodge......................4,552,000
Waiohai.................................4,446,000
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe..............4,322,250
Desert Springs I........................4,299,000
BeachPlace Towers.......................3,734,000
Barony Beach Club.......................3,339,750
Grande Ocean............................3,159,250
Fairway Villas..........................2,827,750
Ritz Carlton Club - San Francisco.......2,678,000
Frenchman's Cove........................2,553,750
Surfwatch...............................2,532,500
Villas at Doral.........................2,423,750
Mountain Side...........................2,249,250
Royal Palms.............................2,134,750
Lakeshore Reserve.......................2,021,000
Summit Watch............................1,996,000
Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas...........1,841,250
Legends Edge............................1,588,500
Manor Club..............................1,558,500
Sabal Palms.............................1,545,500
Ritz Carlton Club - Lake Tahoe..........1,462,750
Mountain Valley Lodge...................1,248,750
Manor Club Sequel.......................1,083,000
Streamside..............................1,007,500
Monarch at Sea Pines......................995,750
Imperial Palms............................714,500
Harbour Pointe............................665,000
Harbour Club..............................303,750
Heritage Club.............................267,500
Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas Suites......243,250
Sunset Pointe.............................159,500
*Grand Total...........................378,749,500*


----------



## Fasttr

Thanks for all your time and talents to maintain this listing.  It is appreciated!!


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> Breakdown by Property
> 
> *Resort.....................................Points*
> Grand Chateau..........................52,703,750
> Ko'Olina...............................30,045,750
> Newport Coast..........................29,394,500
> Oceana Palms...........................23,443,500
> Grande Vista...........................19,272,750
> Kalanipu'u.............................18,293,500
> Timber Lodge...........................18,255,250
> Shadow Ridge II........................13,429,500
> Maui Ocean Club........................11,981,250
> Ritz Carlton Club - Vail...............11,813,500
> The Mayflower..........................10,748,750
> Crystal Shores..........................9,598,250
> Cypress Harbour.........................9,156,000
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel..................8,773,500
> Ocean Pointe............................8,588,000
> Harbour Lake............................8,506,500
> Shadow Ridge............................8,053,750
> Desert Springs II.......................7,686,750
> Canyon Villas...........................5,820,500
> Kauai Beach Club........................5,204,250
> Ocean Watch.............................4,656,250
> Willow Ridge Lodge......................4,552,000
> Waiohai.................................4,446,000
> Grand Residence Lake Tahoe..............4,322,250
> Desert Springs I........................4,299,000
> BeachPlace Towers.......................3,734,000
> Barony Beach Club.......................3,339,750
> Grande Ocean............................3,159,250
> Fairway Villas..........................2,827,750
> Ritz Carlton Club - San Francisco.......2,678,000
> Frenchman's Cove........................2,553,750
> Surfwatch...............................2,532,500
> Villas at Doral.........................2,423,750
> Mountain Side...........................2,249,250
> Royal Palms.............................2,134,750
> Lakeshore Reserve.......................2,021,000
> Summit Watch............................1,996,000
> Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas...........1,841,250
> Legends Edge............................1,588,500
> Manor Club..............................1,558,500
> Sabal Palms.............................1,545,500
> Ritz Carlton Club - Lake Tahoe..........1,462,750
> Mountain Valley Lodge...................1,248,750
> Manor Club Sequel.......................1,083,000
> Streamside..............................1,007,500
> Monarch at Sea Pines......................995,750
> Imperial Palms............................714,500
> Harbour Pointe............................665,000
> Harbour Club..............................303,750
> Heritage Club.............................267,500
> Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas Suites......243,250
> Sunset Pointe.............................159,500
> *Grand Total...........................379,379,750*



Fantastic!  Thank you again and again and again ... 

Were these three (Jan/Post #303, Mar/Post #307 and this July one) the only conveyances for 2016?  When I used your link to the comptroller's site for another thread I got a ton of hits.  No doubt an overwhelming majority are unrelated to conveyances but I really don't know how to pinpoint the searches to only conveyances.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> Fantastic!  Thank you again and again and again ...
> 
> Were these three (Jan/Post #303, Mar/Post #307 and this July one) the only conveyances for 2016?  When I used your link to the comptroller's site for another thread I got a ton of hits.  No doubt an overwhelming majority are unrelated to conveyances but I really don't know how to pinpoint the searches to only conveyances.


Yes, there were only the three conveyances this year. To pinpoint the documents for these conveyances, also include the recording date range and search by "MVC" in the Grantee field. Here are the three recording dates; 1/7/2016, 3/21/2016 and 7/14/2016.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, there were only the three conveyances this year. To pinpoint the documents for these conveyances, also include the recording date range and search by "MVC" in the Grantee field. Here are the three recording dates; 1/7/2016, 3/21/2016 and 7/14/2016.



Oh no, I don't plan on duplicating your searches when you've already done all the work!  I just wondered if in all the jumble I saw the other day there were any other conveyances, and figured you'd get to that answer much faster than I could.


----------



## dioxide45

SueDonJ said:


> Oh no, I don't plan on duplicating your searches when you've already done all the work!  I just wondered if in all the jumble I saw the other day there were any other conveyances, and figured you'd get to that answer much faster than I could.


Those other hits you got are likely other conveyances. There are 822 total conveyances, some original and a small number are rerecords. I am thinking this thread may prompt a few more rerecords given the number of errors they made this time around.


----------



## SueDonJ

dioxide45 said:


> Those other hits you got are likely other conveyances. There are 822 total conveyances, some original and a small number are rerecords. I am thinking this thread may prompt a few more rerecords given the number of errors they made this time around.



You would be shaking your head at what I did - a date range months long with only the word "Marriott."  It returned so many that I had to keep shortening the date range until the hits didn't exceed the maximum that will show, and then I waded through about twenty before finding anything related to a conveyance.  DC Points sales, ROFR docs, HOA foreclosures, stuff I had no idea what it was about ... I saw a whole bunch of things completely unrelated to why I was there!

Be warned, the next time I think there's an answer to be found on that site, I'll be asking you to do it!  

And about the errors you found?  My first thought while reading was that somebody will be sent back to the drawing board when MVW puts eyes on your post.


----------



## dioxide45

I also only search for specific document type of "Notice". Otherwise you will see lots of foreclosure sales, deeds, mortgages and satisfactions. Probably hundreds of thousands of documents.


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## GregT

Dioxide, thank you for posting this -- it's interesting that they are now breaking out the Ritz Carlton St. Thomas Suites from the RCC STT Villas because I know they used to combine them.  I track this property and am happy to see it continue to being added to the Trust, but unsure of the significance of the now separate designation.  It shouldn't matter, but I'm still curious.

Thanks again -- do you know the link to the 543K points that they added for RCC STT Villas?  I'd like to see what intervals they added?

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> Dioxide, thank you for posting this -- it's interesting that they are now breaking out the Ritz Carlton St. Thomas Suites from the RCC STT Villas because I know they used to combine them.  I track this property and am happy to see it continue to being added to the Trust, but unsure of the significance of the now separate designation.  It shouldn't matter, but I'm still curious.
> 
> Thanks again -- do you know the link to the 543K points that they added for RCC STT Villas?  I'd like to see what intervals they added?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


It is instrument# 20160362928


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> It is instrument# 20160362928


Dixoide, 

I missed your response the first time, thanks for the link -- I don't see any more conveyances in 2016 so they should be depositing soon.

Best,

Greg


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## BocaBoy

All this detail makes my head spin.  I know it is good information and some of you are interested in it, but all I personally care about is a very general knowledge (an educated guess is fine for me) of which resorts are relatively easy or relatively hard to book with points, and I can get that by browsing the MVCI reservations website.  Others can worry about the detailed numbers.


----------



## GregT

All,

Marriott added weeks worth an additional 18.3M points to the Trust in late March.

I checked the properties I track, and they had only modest additions for Maui Ocean Club - Sequel and only two 3BR units.  They added 19 intervals/57 weeks for Ritz STT.

From random flipping through the filings, it looked like it was mostly re-acquired product, between 200,000 - 500,000 per property.  I did not see any inventory for the Big Island, but we should start to see that.

Best,

Greg


----------



## l0410z

The Monarch only has 122 units of which 12 are oceanfront and 1 is a oceanfront 3 br so it is easy to calculate the point value in the trust as a percent of total point value of the 122 units. Based on the math, 995K in the trust is less than 10% of the total points. Eyeballing the other HHI propertied and guesstimating based on size & points in the trust, less than 10% of Hilton Head is in the trust. Given HHI is seasonal, I would further guess that most of it is the off season inventory is not prime or shoulder.   I point this out because it tells me MVCI is and will always be heavily dependant on enrolled Legacy owners for inventory in almost all locations outside of Vegas and Hawaii.  As legacy owners sell, MVCI has to come up with a plan to get that inventory back for most of the other locations.  I would not be surprised if we see a post 6/2010 resale enrollment offer not tied to DP point purchase at some point in the next few years.


----------



## SueDonJ

l0410z said:


> The Monarch only has 122 units of which 12 are oceanfront and 1 is a oceanfront 3 br so it is easy to calculate the point value in the trust as a percent of total point value of the 122 units. Based on the math, 995K in the trust is less than 10% of the total points. Eyeballing the other HHI propertied and guesstimating based on size & points in the trust, less than 10% of Hilton Head is in the trust. Given HHI is seasonal, I would further guess that most of it is the off season inventory is not prime or shoulder.   I point this out because it tells me MVCI is and will always be heavily dependant on enrolled Legacy owners for inventory in almost all locations outside of Vegas and Hawaii.  As legacy owners sell, MVCI has to come up with a plan to get that inventory back for most of the other locations.  I would not be surprised if we see a post 6/2010 resale enrollment offer not tied to DP point purchase at some point in the next few years.



Using prime HHI inventory as the example, it's not necessary for Weeks Owners to enroll them in order for Marriott to be able to access them because Marriott can pull deposits from II to fulfill DC Points reservation requests.  HHI Weeks are strong traders in II so that inventory bucket is already decent. Plus Marriott can exercise ROFR on most HHI inventory when it's resold, resulting in them acquiring inventory at comparatively lower prices and then conveying it to the DC Trust (rather than Marriott needing to offer enrollment of them to the resale buyers.)

It won't be a surprise if we continue to see various creative enrollment offers from Marriott, but I don't think that the future success of the DC is going to require that enrollment of post-2010 resales be made available.


----------



## l0410z

SueDonJ said:


> A -Marriott can pull deposits from II to fulfill DC Points reservation requests.  HHI Weeks are strong traders in II so that inventory bucket is already decent.
> 
> B - Plus Marriott can exercise ROFR on most HHI inventory when it's resold, resulting in them acquiring inventory at comparatively lower prices and then conveying it to the DC Trust (rather than Marriott needing to offer enrollment of them to the resale buyers.)
> 
> C - It won't be a surprise if we continue to see various creative enrollment offers from Marriott, but I don't think that the future success of the DC is going to require that enrollment of post-2010 resales be made available.



B - I didn't mean to make this an HHI discussion.  I was just using this as an example.  I have never traded my legacy week for points but I have read enough to think that point access during prime time at many resorts is a big issue.    Are you suggesting that the inventory through II or legacy week for point exchanges are sufficient to cover most requests?  If the answer yes, my  post was based on wrong information.   If the answer is no, if MVCI had a ROFR strategy for adding prime weeks into inventory, wouldn't the point total for many of the pre 2010 locations be higher in total point value driven by prime time acquisitions? 

A - I own Monarch Summer.  If I have a trade request in II to trade my Monarch for YY  and the YY becomes available, Marriott can jump ahead of me to get that YY.  I was not aware of this.   I thought they have to get in the queue and be treated like everyone else in the queue. 

C - I would guess that the majority of high point value customers are legacy owners with some adding points to achieve various levels.  If I am wrong, stop here.    If this is true, this would suggest an age element to both legacy and new  customers.  New customers tend to to be younger and have less money, not until the profile of many of us when we purchased years ago.  As the cost per point goes up, I wonder what will drive the future success of point ownership for younger customers.


----------



## Hobee

dioxide45 said:


> Breakdown by Property
> 
> *Resort.....................................Points*
> Grand Chateau..........................52,703,750
> Ko'Olina...............................30,045,750
> Newport Coast..........................29,394,500
> Oceana Palms...........................23,391,250
> Grande Vista...........................19,272,750
> Kalanipu'u.............................18,293,500
> Timber Lodge...........................17,677,250
> Shadow Ridge II........................13,429,500
> Maui Ocean Club........................11,981,250
> Ritz Carlton Club - Vail...............11,813,500
> The Mayflower..........................10,748,750
> Crystal Shores..........................9,598,250
> Cypress Harbour.........................9,156,000
> Maui Ocean Club Sequel..................8,773,500
> Ocean Pointe............................8,588,000
> Harbour Lake............................8,506,500
> Shadow Ridge............................8,053,750
> Desert Springs II.......................7,686,750
> Canyon Villas...........................5,820,500
> Kauai Beach Club........................5,204,250
> Ocean Watch.............................4,656,250
> Willow Ridge Lodge......................4,552,000
> Waiohai.................................4,446,000
> Grand Residence Lake Tahoe..............4,322,250
> Desert Springs I........................4,299,000
> BeachPlace Towers.......................3,734,000
> Barony Beach Club.......................3,339,750
> Grande Ocean............................3,159,250
> Fairway Villas..........................2,827,750
> Ritz Carlton Club - San Francisco.......2,678,000
> Frenchman's Cove........................2,553,750
> Surfwatch...............................2,532,500
> Villas at Doral.........................2,423,750
> Mountain Side...........................2,249,250
> Royal Palms.............................2,134,750
> Lakeshore Reserve.......................2,021,000
> Summit Watch............................1,996,000
> Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas...........1,841,250
> Legends Edge............................1,588,500
> Manor Club..............................1,558,500
> Sabal Palms.............................1,545,500
> Ritz Carlton Club - Lake Tahoe..........1,462,750
> Mountain Valley Lodge...................1,248,750
> Manor Club Sequel.......................1,083,000
> Streamside..............................1,007,500
> Monarch at Sea Pines......................995,750
> Imperial Palms............................714,500
> Harbour Pointe............................665,000
> Harbour Club..............................303,750
> Heritage Club.............................267,500
> Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas Suites......243,250
> Sunset Pointe.............................159,500
> *Grand Total...........................378,749,500*


This very interesting.  Kind of suspected Grand Chateau and Ko’Olina at the top and some of the smaller (but nice) HHI resorts with less Trust ownership.  I was surprised that Newport Coast was near the top.  How is this information obtained?


----------



## Fasttr

Hobee said:


> This very interesting.  Kind of suspected Grand Chateau and Ko’Olina at the top and some of the smaller (but nice) HHI resorts with less Trust ownership.  I was surprised that Newport Coast was near the top.  How is this information obtained?


Hopefully @dioxide45 will chime in, but I believe he tracked conveyances to the trust via recordings in Orange County FL.


----------



## StevenTing

Florida deeds.  Deeds that are assigned to the trust.


----------



## GregT

Steven is correct.  @dioxide45 figured out how to find the filings showing the weeks that were assigned/deposited to the trust.  He built a system that read the PDF files and converted them to a spreadsheet.  He shared the master spreadsheet with me because he is a good guy. 

It was time consuming but interesting and we would debate what it was showing us. We would see huge deposits when a property opened a new building and significant points were deposited.

But it was inconclusive.

At the end of the day, Marriott had found ways to get access to the vital inventory needed (Trust/enrolled weeks/II trades) to make the point system work - Bravo Marriott!

I think a lot about this stuff - and I finally decided the inventory will be there - Ko Olina is highly accessible, plus a few other properties I really like (Ritz STT - especially with Trust point) and I stopped analyzing.

I do not know if Jeremy continues to update the spreadsheet, but it was interesting in the early days.

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

Everyone here is correct. Each conveyance of points is recorded in Orange County Florida as a Notice. This was done at the resort level, usually twice a year. It was a lot of work, but with some help from @GregT I was able to use OCR to capture much of the data. Even with that, it required a lot of manual effort to convert all the conveyances in to the spreadsheet and it has been a number of years since I have updated the list.


----------



## Hobee

Thank you for that explanation and your previous efforts.  Seems then that it not part of MVCI’s annual reports or disclosures.


----------



## Fasttr

Hobee said:


> Seems then that it not part of MVCI’s annual reports or disclosures.


The disclosures I have seen from MVC only list the resorts where they have Trust inventory.  So it could be one unit week and it gets listed the same as if they owned the entire resort.  Not of much help.


----------



## Hobee

Fasttr said:


> The disclosures I have seen from MVC only list the resorts where they have Trust inventory.  So it could be one unit week and it gets listed the same as if they owned the entire resort.  Not of much help.


Thanks Fasttr


----------



## James P

So... conceptual question.

I own a red week at Desert Springs Villas I.     I've used it consistently for the last 10 years without trading.  I ALWAYS reserve the week that coincides with my kids' spring break, which usually means staying up late or getting up very early 12 months prior to ensure that I get the week I want.

Based on the points in the trust, it looks like Desert Springs Villas I (DSVI) is still almost entirely legacy owners.   

In theory, if Marriott keeps buying up red weeks to add to the DC trust, do they have the ability to crowd out my reservation?   For example, my preferred week often coincides with the Coachella Music Festival, which, during the weekends, results in every hotel room in the valley being sold out.    As an owner of a single week, I can make a reservation 12 months in advance.  Owners of multiple weeks can reserve 13 months in advance, provided that the reservations are consecutive or concurrent.

Is Marriott able to snap up all of the "good" dates for red weeks in order to maximize the DC points they can charge?

I didn't buy my week to profit or game the system; I just want to take my kids to the desert when they're out of school.   However, before COVID, I noticed that my 2 bedroom was retailing on the Marriott website for about $900 a night for the week that I usually reserve.   Does Marriott have the ability to arbitrage and crowd out my ability to make a reservation?


----------



## Dean

James P said:


> So... conceptual question.
> 
> I own a red week at Desert Springs Villas I.     I've used it consistently for the last 10 years without trading.  I ALWAYS reserve the week that coincides with my kids' spring break, which usually means staying up late or getting up very early 12 months prior to ensure that I get the week I want.
> 
> Based on the points in the trust, it looks like Desert Springs Villas I (DSVI) is still almost entirely legacy owners.
> 
> In theory, if Marriott keeps buying up red weeks to add to the DC trust, do they have the ability to crowd out my reservation?   For example, my preferred week often coincides with the Coachella Music Festival, which, during the weekends, results in every hotel room in the valley being sold out.    As an owner of a single week, I can make a reservation 12 months in advance.  Owners of multiple weeks can reserve 13 months in advance, provided that the reservations are consecutive or concurrent.
> 
> Is Marriott able to snap up all of the "good" dates for red weeks in order to maximize the DC points they can charge?
> 
> I didn't buy my week to profit or game the system; I just want to take my kids to the desert when they're out of school.   However, before COVID, I noticed that my 2 bedroom was retailing on the Marriott website for about $900 a night for the week that I usually reserve.   Does Marriott have the ability to arbitrage and crowd out my ability to make a reservation?


I think the answer as I understand the system is probably not.  They have an advantage if they so choose to reserve any points reservation they control though under the same rules as anyone using points.  Realistically your risk is that those using points could reserve that week far more than other weeks and other owners using the 13 month reservation option that you mentioned could do the same.  Remember once a member elects points, those points can be used to secure any week in that season.  Just like the demand on the weeks side is higher for that week, so too is that week on the points side.  Plus a large portion of points owners will also have the 13 month reservation options.  Obviously there are limitations including the # of owners who elect points and do so early enough for this to be an issue and the limitation on how many weeks are released at 13 months out. I do think you're at risk for the week becoming more difficult to reserve possibly to the point of you not getting it some years.  And some of those that reserve, owners and with points, will put that week up for rental as is their option.


----------



## GregT

James P said:


> So... conceptual question.
> 
> I own a red week at Desert Springs Villas I.     I've used it consistently for the last 10 years without trading.  I ALWAYS reserve the week that coincides with my kids' spring break, which usually means staying up late or getting up very early 12 months prior to ensure that I get the week I want.
> 
> Based on the points in the trust, it looks like Desert Springs Villas I (DSVI) is still almost entirely legacy owners.
> 
> In theory, if Marriott keeps buying up red weeks to add to the DC trust, do they have the ability to crowd out my reservation?   For example, my preferred week often coincides with the Coachella Music Festival, which, during the weekends, results in every hotel room in the valley being sold out.    As an owner of a single week, I can make a reservation 12 months in advance.  Owners of multiple weeks can reserve 13 months in advance, provided that the reservations are consecutive or concurrent.
> 
> Is Marriott able to snap up all of the "good" dates for red weeks in order to maximize the DC points they can charge?
> 
> I didn't buy my week to profit or game the system; I just want to take my kids to the desert when they're out of school.   However, before COVID, I noticed that my 2 bedroom was retailing on the Marriott website for about $900 a night for the week that I usually reserve.   Does Marriott have the ability to arbitrage and crowd out my ability to make a reservation?



Years ago, when we were seeking to understand inventory loading and availability (circa 2011-2012), we posed this question to Customer Advocacy.  The response we received was that they would only reserve a consistent percentage each week and would not overweight their reservations for the higher demands weeks.   I believed this then and I still believe it -- Marriott has consistently applied the system in a matter to not disenfranchise smaller owners and they give great consideration to keeping the system fairly implemented.    

So, I think you can continue to expect your normal competition for weeks and think you will enjoy your week for years to come!

Best,

Greg


----------



## James P

GregT said:


> Years ago, when we were seeking to understand inventory loading and availability (circa 2011-2012), we posed this question to Customer Advocacy.  The response we received was that they would only reserve a consistent percentage each week and would not overweight their reservations for the higher demands weeks.   I believed this then and I still believe it -- Marriott has consistently applied the system in a matter to not disenfranchise smaller owners and they give great consideration to keeping the system fairly implemented.
> 
> So, I think you can continue to expect your normal competition for weeks and think you will enjoy your week for years to come!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


Thank you for your replies, both you and Dean.   My first post ever on a thread that hasn't had a reply for 5 months.  What a community!

So... in theory, if Marriott has a quantity of red weeks added to the DC trust, they basically leave it up to the DC points members to fight with the rest of us for reservations?

If this is the case, I have to say that I'm at ease.   Marriott probably owns less than 10% (based on previous trust disclosures) of DSVI weeks, so if they aren't front running the dates for the Coachella Music Festival, I'm completely happy with the way things are.   From what I've seen in the winter resorts in CA and UT, Marriott seems to know about "ski week"... (many affluent school districts on the west coast make president's day an entire week off), and they charge a premium accordingly.


----------



## Dean

James P said:


> Thank you for your replies, both you and Dean.   My first post ever on a thread that hasn't had a reply for 5 months.  What a community!
> 
> So... in theory, if Marriott has a quantity of red weeks added to the DC trust, they basically leave it up to the DC points members to fight with the rest of us for reservations?
> 
> If this is the case, I have to say that I'm at ease.   Marriott probably owns less than 10% (based on previous trust disclosures) of DSVI weeks, so if they aren't front running the dates for the Coachella Music Festival, I'm completely happy with the way things are.   From what I've seen in the winter resorts in CA and UT, Marriott seems to know about "ski week"... (many affluent school districts on the west coast make president's day an entire week off), and they charge a premium accordingly.


It's not what Marriott owns that's the issue but more how many owners there are enrolled and take point which would open inventory up to any and all points owners.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> You can access the recorded trust documents on the Orange County FL comptroller website. Includes actual unit information of what was conveyed to the trust.
> 
> http://or.occompt.com/recorder/web/
> 
> I have done the work for you and provided the document numbers. Just search by document number.



I am beginning to watch the website again to see if Marriott is going to deposit Starwood weeks into the Trust.   I'm documenting the search criteria for two purposes:

1) so other TUGgers can run their own searches
2) so I don't forget how to do it (because I did, and have spent the last 30 minutes trying to recapture it)

@dioxide45 is the genius here in figuring out how to do this and it's a great resource.

Click into the website noted above in his quote and then the search criteria (that I use) are as follows:

1) Enter the date range you wish to search
2) In the Grantor field, enter "Marriott" and select Wildcard Search (and not Exact Match)
3) In the Grantee field, enter "FSB" and select Wildcard Search (and not Exact Match)
4) Leave all other fields blank (these fields are:  Either Party/Document #/Book Page)

Because there are hundreds of thousands of records in the system, this identifies the entries where the Grantor is "Marriott Ownership Resorts Inc" and Grantee is "First American Trust FSB, MVC Trust Owners Associated, Land Trust".  You may get some other noise where the criteria match, but many of them will be our Deposits.

The records that we want are "Notice" under the Description column.   As a test run if you wish to run the experiment, the last deposits that I see were from early February 2022.

Good luck TUGgers -- still curious how the new system evolves and very curious to see if we start to see Starwood weeks deposited into the Trust.   The conference call suggesting that they expect to continue to recycle weeks would make it a logical decision to expand the recycling into Westin and Sheraton too.   Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

I also find that just entering "MVC" in the Grantee field and then unchecking the box to be able to search by specific documents also works well. I check the "Notice" box so it will only search for conveyance notices. This seems to pull up all past trust conveyance documents for weeks that Marriott has conveyed to date.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> I also find that just entering "MVC" in the Grantee field and then unchecking the box to be able to search by specific documents also works well. I check the "Notice" box so it will only search for conveyance notices. This seems to pull up all past trust conveyance documents for weeks that Marriott has conveyed to date.


Jeremy, that's a better approach -- it picked up a couple Notices that don't have FSB -- not sure why, but fantastic!

Will keep an eye out for Starwood deposits......  thanks for posting!

Best,

Greg


----------



## DanCali

dioxide45 said:


> I also find that just entering "MVC" in the Grantee field and then unchecking the box to be able to search by specific documents also works well. I check the "Notice" box so it will only search for conveyance notices. This seems to pull up all past trust conveyance documents for weeks that Marriott has conveyed to date.






GregT said:


> 1) Enter the date range you wish to search
> 2) In the Grantor field, enter "Marriott" and select Wildcard Search (and not Exact Match)
> 3) In the Grantee field, enter "FSB" and select Wildcard Search (and not Exact Match)
> 4) Leave all other fields blank (these fields are:  Either Party/Document #/Book Page)




Any reason why the Grantor for these would necessarily be Marriott* and not Vistana* or VSE* (Vistana Signature Experiences) or SVO* (Starwood Vacation Ownership) or something else?

On our Kierland purchase we had "VSE VILLAS ARIZONA INC" as the grantor in the Maricopa County recording - and that was post-Marriott's acquisition of Vistana.


----------



## dioxide45

DanCali said:


> Any reason why the Grantor for these would necessarily be Marriott* and not Vistana* or VSE* (Vistana Signature Experiences) or SVO* (Starwood Vacation Ownership) or something else?
> 
> On our Kierland purchase we had "VSE VILLAS ARIZONA INC" as the grantor in the Maricopa County recording - and that was post-Marriott's acquisition of Vistana.


Yeah, quite possible that "Marriott" won't be in the Grantor name, but if they use the same trust as for DC, "MVC" should continue to be there.


----------



## GregT

Just checked the website and still nothing deposited into the Trust....interesting.   They deposited weeks into the Trust well before they went live in June 2010...different pattern if they truly start offering reservations on August 1st. 

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

GregT said:


> Just checked the website and still nothing deposited into the Trust....interesting.   They deposited weeks into the Trust well before they went live in June 2010...different pattern if they truly start offering reservations on August 1st.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


I checked not long ago too and saw no VIstana weeks being added to the DC trust yet. I suspect they will rely on exchange to facilitate mos reservations out of the gate.


----------



## kozykritter

Given that Abound is an exchange company, it wouldn't make sense to put those weeks into the trust. The whole integration is based upon exchanging Vistana inventory for MVC inventory and vice versa so would have to go into the exchange company to make it work. I wouldn't think you would have to transfer ownership title to do that type of exchanging.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Given that Abound is an exchange company, it wouldn't make sense to put those weeks into the trust. The whole integration is based upon exchanging Vistana inventory for MVC inventory and vice versa so would have to go into the exchange company to make it work. I wouldn't think you would have to transfer ownership title to do that type of exchanging.


But Marriott will continue to reacquire Vistana weeks; either through foreclosure, buyback or ROFR. They have to go somewhere if they plan to stop selling Sheraton and Westin Flex after the 7th. Oh, the 7th is the new date I heard today for the cutover...


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> But Marriott will continue to reacquire Vistana weeks; either through foreclosure, buyback or ROFR. They have to go somewhere if they plan to stop selling Sheraton and Westin Flex after the 7th. Oh, the 7th is the new date I heard today for the cutover...


I guess we'll see where they put them after the 7th


----------



## dougp26364

Perhaps they’re planning to keep both systems separate, only depositing inventory into the combined points program on request based on availability. 
example: unsold Vistana weeks remain in the Vistana system until there is a request by a DC member for that week. Even though there not technically in the “trust”, as an unsold week they’ll be available to view to those searching. In this respect it’s strictly an exchange.
If that’s the case, it’s surprising it’s taken so long to make it happen. The length of time spent trying to integrate the systems has me believing that ILG will be, in some way, blended into the trust.


----------



## dioxide45

*It's Official - Marriott adding Sheraton & Westin weeks to the MVC Trust!*

I haven't looked at them all, but Marriott made a big conveyance on August 15th to the MVC Trust. @GregT

Westin Mission Hills

Sheraton Vistana Villages - St Augustine

Westin Princeville


----------



## GregT

That’s fantastic - thx for finding this Jeremy!!

I will keep watching as well, this is an important development for us and let’s see how deep the Trust ends up for Westin and Sheraton weeks.

Best,

Greg


----------



## StevenTing

Sweet!   Was there a post on how to check the the registrar?


----------



## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> *It's Official - Marriott adding Sheraton & Westin weeks to the MVC Trust!*
> 
> I haven't looked at them all, but Marriott made a big conveyance on August 15th to the MVC Trust. @GregT
> 
> Westin Mission Hills
> 
> Sheraton Vistana Villages - St Augustine
> 
> Westin Princeville


Nice to see their actions following up their words!


----------



## klpca

kozykritter said:


> Nice to see their actions following up their words!
> 
> FYI -The links are only accessible for someone that's a registered user and logged into the system, at least that's what it says when you follow them.


I clicked agree/accept/ok (whatever the box said) and I was able to see the documents.


----------



## dioxide45

StevenTing said:


> Sweet!   Was there a post on how to check the the registrar?


See posts #340 and #341;








						Recorded Trust Documents
					

A -Marriott can pull deposits from II to fulfill DC Points reservation requests.  HHI Weeks are strong traders in II so that inventory bucket is already decent.  B - Plus Marriott can exercise ROFR on most HHI inventory when it's resold, resulting in them acquiring inventory at comparatively...




					tugbbs.com


----------



## dioxide45

Here is the list of Vistana conveyances. Not much "good stuff".


Instrument NumberResortPointsWeeks20220497595​Sheraton Broadway Plantation-Palmetto33,500​25​20220497596​Sheraton Broadway Plantation-Plantation158,750​132​20220497675​Sheraton Desert Oasis21,750​21​20220497676​Sheraton Mountain Vista80,250​67​20220497677​Sheraton PGA Vacation Resort40,250​58​20220497678​Sheraton Vistana Resort-Cascades1,482,500​691​20220497679​Sheraton Vistana Resort-Courts216,250​80​20220497680​Sheraton Vistana Resort-Falls244,000​90​20220497681​Sheraton Vistana Resort-Fountains II474,750​219​20220497682​Sheraton Vistana Resort-Lakes630,250​275​20220497683​Sheraton Vistana Resort-Spas/Palms682,000​253​20220497684​Sheraton Vistana Villages-Amelia165,000​85​20220497685​Sheraton Vistana Villages-Bella514,250​268​20220497686​Sheraton Vistana Villages-Key West183,000​80​20220497687​Sheraton Vistana Villages-St Augustine491,250​258​20220497688​Lakeside Terrace27,750​16​20220497689​Westin Desert Willow274,250​115​20220497690​Westin Mission Hills168,500​82​20220497691​Westin Princeville894,750​234​


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> Here is the list of Vistana conveyances. Not much "good stuff".
> 
> 
> 20220497595​Sheraton Broadway Plantation-PalmettoSC33,500​20220497596​Sheraton Broadway Plantation-PlantationSC158,750​20220497675​Sheraton Desert OasisAZ21,750​20220497676​Sheraton Mountain VistaCO80,250​20220497677​Sheraton PGA Vacation ResortFL40,250​20220497678​Sheraton Vistana Resort-CascadesFL1,482,500​20220497679​Sheraton Vistana Resort-CourtsFL216,250​20220497680​Sheraton Vistana Resort-FallsFL244,000​20220497681​Sheraton Vistana Resort-Fountains IIFL474,750​20220497682​Sheraton Vistana Resort-LakesFL630,250​20220497683​Sheraton Vistana Resort-Spas/PalmsFL682,000​20220497684​Sheraton Vistana Villages-AmeliaFL165,000​20220497685​Sheraton Vistana Villages-BellaFL514,250​20220497686​Sheraton Vistana Villages-Key WestFL183,000​20220497687​Sheraton Vistana Villages-St AugustineFL491,250​20220497688​Lakeside TerraceCO27,750​20220497689​Westin Desert WillowCA274,250​20220497690​Westin Mission HillsCA168,500​20220497691​Westin PrincevilleHI894,750​


Are those values Abound points or HomeOptions? I’m guessing they are Abound given the values are all divisible by 250, but want to be sure.

I agree - not much to get excited about in here if I’m a MVC points owner. It’s basically Sheraton Flex and some lower demand Westin Flex deeds on first glance (although the relative amount of WPORV is interesting).


----------



## kozykritter

jabberwocky said:


> Are those values Abound points or HomeOptions? I’m guessing they are Abound given the values are all divisible by 250, but want to be sure.
> 
> I agree - not much to get excited about in here if I’m a MVC points owner. It’s basically Sheraton Flex and some lower demand Westin Flex deeds on first glance (although the relative amount of WPORV is interesting).


It's DC/MVC points. The conveyance paperwork shows the entire point balance of the trust before the transaction along with the new balance afterwards so it would have to be DC for that to work.


----------



## dioxide45

Yes, all Abound point values. It is mostly Sheraton inventory. WHen I looked at the conveyances, it all looked to be acquisitions. Probably what has been required since the last time they did conveyances to Sheraton Flex. I can't really explain why so few Westin resorts are in there.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> Yes, all Abound point values. It is mostly Sheraton inventory. WHen I looked at the conveyances, it all looked to be acquisitions. Probably what has been required since the last time they did conveyances to Sheraton Flex. I can't really explain why so few Westin resorts are in there.


My guess based on the list is you have a lot of people turning in deeds through the deedback program (although I thought SDO would have been higher).

it is interesting to see a larger amount of Bella and KW SVV points. That may explain why you haven’t seen too many weeks on the resale market (along with price increases).

Let’s hope MVC owners like going to Orlando - because that’s the bulk of the initial amount.


----------



## VacationForever

The large number of SVR Cascades stands out for me.  I wonder if they have been sitting on a large number of inventory all this time.


----------



## GregT

This is interesting — first load is ~7M which is not a lot considering the number of properties.   And as Dioxide noted, these are not the premium properties.     I am happy to see 900K of WPORV, which I s about 200 weeks, or roughly four reservations available for each week.   That’s not a lot, but it is something to work with.    I think the presence of competing Kauai properties will prevent WPORV from being a hot reservation.     But at least something should be available right at inventory release.

It also suggests that the premier properties (WSJ, WKORV and Kierland) will have reservations initially sourced only from owner elections.   It is still not clear how attractive the Marriott system is to these owners, so that may be a tough reservation to get.

We should see more inventory deposits in the future as weeks are ROFR’d or purchased directly from owners.  

Interesting — thanks for posting this!

Best,

Greg


----------



## dioxide45

Total of 3,049 weeks conveyed
2,133 which are Annual
916 EOY
2,229 in Orlando
234 Westin Princeville


----------



## Red elephant

jabberwocky said:


> My guess based on the list is you have a lot of people turning in deeds through the deedback program (although I thought SDO would have been higher).
> 
> it is interesting to see a larger amount of Bella and KW SVV points. That may explain why you haven’t seen too many weeks on the resale market (along with price increases).
> 
> Let’s hope MVC owners like going to Orlando - because that’s the bulk of the initial amount.


Does anybody know the Abound points required to book these Sheraton resorts? It might be point effective to use Abounds points in these cases if the point required is lower than to book with staroptions.  I use my SVR 81,000 staroptions to go to SBP at 8 months. If SBP is less that 2600 (SVR) Abound points or equivalent then I might use that at 13 months and book depending on what weeks are in the trust.


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> Does anybody know the Abound points required to book these Sheraton resorts? It might be point effective to use Abounds points in these cases if the point required is lower than to book with staroptions.  I use my SVR 81,000 staroptions to go to SBP at 8 months. If SBP is less that 2600 (SVR) Abound points or equivalent then I might use that at 13 months and book depending on what weeks are in the trust.


We currently only have full points use charts for Westin resorts.


----------



## jabberwocky

Red elephant said:


> Does anybody know the Abound points required to book these Sheraton resorts? It might be point effective to use Abounds points in these cases if the point required is lower than to book with staroptions.  I use my SVR 81,000 staroptions to go to SBP at 8 months. If SBP is less that 2600 (SVR) Abound points or equivalent then I might use that at 13 months and book depending on what weeks are in the trust.


I don’t think Vistana resorts will be book able at 13 months. You’ll have to wait until 12 months. Probably fairly limited as the points are pretty low.


----------



## jyatl

Red elephant said:


> Does anybody know the Abound points required to book these Sheraton resorts? It might be point effective to use Abounds points in these cases if the point required is lower than to book with staroptions.  I use my SVR 81,000 staroptions to go to SBP at 8 months. If SBP is less that 2600 (SVR) Abound points or equivalent then I might use that at 13 months and book depending on what weeks are in the trust.


I saw the Sheraton (and Westin) chart Sun during an update. Should have taken a picture. These are comparable to the MVC properties of the same level in the same location. So you can get an idea by looking at the published MVC chart.


----------



## VacationForever

My estimation is that it is always going to be more expensive to book Vistana properties in Abound.  I will certainly continue to use SOs to book back into Vistana properties. 

As an example, I only get 3225 SOs for Desert Springs Villas 1 red season, but I need 4225 points to book the peak weeks in March.


----------



## ljmiii

GregT said:


> I am happy to see 900K of WPORV, which is about 200 weeks, or roughly four reservations available for each week...


I'm happy as well to see Princeville as well...the rest I couldn't care less about. Adding a few nights in Princeville to our Waiohai vacations will cut down on drive time and make our time on the South Shore more relaxing.


----------



## GregT

dioxide45 said:


> Total of 3,049 weeks conveyed
> 2,133 which are Annual
> 916 EOY
> 2,229 in Orlando
> 234 Westin Princeville


I like 234 weeks at WPORV.   Please it’s a voluntary resort and some owners may buy points to enroll it (if not automatic) so it may become a desirable option (it’s already a desirable property).

This is an obvious statement, but Waiohai and Kauai Lagoons are 2BR or larger only, so WPORV is a much better 1BR and Studio than KBC.

Interesting. Thx again Jeremy.

Best,

Greg


----------



## kozykritter

VacationForever said:


> My estimation is that it is always going to be more expensive to book Vistana properties in Abound.  I will certainly continue to use SOs to book back into Vistana properties.
> 
> As an example, I only get 3225 SOs for Desert Springs Villas 1 red season, but I need 4225 points to book the peak weeks in March.


Likely the case. That said I've already found some sweet spots where it would make sense for me to book backwards from Abound to Vistana after electing my Vistana ownership.. but I'm not going to say where because Marriott might be listening!


----------



## vacationtime1

kozykritter said:


> Likely the case. That said I've already found some sweet spots where it would make sense for me to book backwards from Abound to Vistana after electing my Vistana ownership.. but I'm not going to say where because Marriott might be listening!


Marriott *is *listening.


----------



## Red elephant

jabberwocky said:


> I don’t think Vistana resorts will be book able at 13 months. You’ll have to wait until 12 months. Probably fairly limited as the points are pretty low.


That’s interesting . Whatever is in the Abound is suppose to be bookable at 13 months from all I have reading.  How will they restrict the Vistana resorts in abound?


----------



## Red elephant

VacationForever said:


> My estimation is that it is always going to be more expensive to book Vistana properties in Abound.  I will certainly continue to use SOs to book back into Vistana properties.
> 
> As an example, I only get 3225 SOs for Desert Springs Villas 1 red season, but I need 4225 points to book the peak weeks in March.


That’s to book for that same resort. What about order resorts like SVV , SVR, SBP?


----------



## dioxide45

Red elephant said:


> That’s interesting . Whatever is in the Abound is suppose to be bookable at 13 months from all I have reading.  How will they restrict the Vistana resorts in abound?


I think the limitation is with how Vistana reservations are handled and what is allowed at each resort with Vistana. Marriott previously had a 13 month booking system in place when they had weeks. Vistana doesn't have that and many resorts limit home resort reservations to 12 months. Since Abound is just an overlay, Abound can't book anything more or better than any other weeks based owner can.


----------



## JIMinNC

Red elephant said:


> That’s interesting . Whatever is in the Abound is suppose to be bookable at 13 months from all I have reading.  How will they restrict the Vistana resorts in abound?



I'll add to what @dioxide45 posted, the 13 month window is, and always will be, subject to availability. So, if no inventory is deposited into the MVC Exchange, it can't be booked at 13 months. That's the same way it is with MVC inventory today. The inventory can't be booked until either Marriott or an owner moves it into the Exchange. Today, they move some inventory at 13 months and more at 12, so with Vistana, they just wait and move it in at 12 months, per the Vistana rules.


----------



## bizaro86

Speaking only for myself- if I see reports of SDO appearing bookable for DC points at 13 months I'll be writing a pretty strongly worded letter. The CCRs don't allow for 13 month booking by anyone, including the developer. They can't just change the deal because they'd like a different plan better.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> Speaking only for myself- if I see reports of SDO appearing bookable for DC points at 13 months I'll be writing a pretty strongly worded letter. The CCRs don't allow for 13 month booking by anyone, including the developer. They can't just change the deal because they'd like a different plan better.


In years past, didn't we see some SDO deposits into RCI much further out than 12 months?


----------



## Red elephant

JIMinNC said:


> I'll add to what @dioxide45 posted, the 13 month window is, and always will be, subject to availability. So, if no inventory is deposited into the MVC Exchange, it can't be booked at 13 months. That's the same way it is with MVC inventory today. The inventory can't be booked until either Marriott or an owner moves it into the Exchange. Today, they move some inventory at 13 months and more at 12, so with Vistana, they just wait and move it in at 12 months, per the Vistana rules.


I understand that the inventory has to be there for one to book. So if one elects abound points the year before it will not be made available till 12 months? Then  how can Marriott say you can book at 13 months. They should put an exception to that.


----------



## JIMinNC

Red elephant said:


> I understand that the inventory has to be there for one to book. So if one elects abound points the year before it will not be made available till 12 months? Then  how can Marriott say you can book at 13 months. They should put an exception to that.



If I elect my Marriott weeks for points prior to the 13 month window, my expectation is that week could be made available as part of the inventory that is bookable at 13 months, or MVC could hold it for release at 12 months (as the MVC Terms and Conditions limit them to 50% at 13 months). Since it appears that Vistana weeks can't actually be booked by an owner until 12 months, MVC, as program manager, would be prohibited from picking a specific week to deposit into the Exchange until 12 months. 

I presume whenever Marriott gets around to publishing updated Terms & Conditions that include the addition of Vistana, these nuances will be addressed there in legal language.


----------



## jabberwocky

dioxide45 said:


> In years past, didn't we see some SDO deposits into RCI much further out than 12 months?


The exception to the 12-month rule is fixed weeks.  If those are deposited, then they can be made available before 12 months.

I expect that with so many SVR Cascades and Lakes weeks available in Abound that you will be able to book at 13 months for those resorts since most weeks there were sold as fixed-floating weeks that automatically are booked for you before the 12-month mark unless you don't confirm the reservation or book an alternative week.


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## daviator

Red elephant said:


> That’s interesting . Whatever is in the Abound is suppose to be bookable at 13 months from all I have reading.  How will they restrict the Vistana resorts in abound?


You just won't see Vistana inventory (except perhaps fixed weeks as mentioned above) show up until 12 months prior.  Abound has to abide by the Vistana exchange rules, which limit booking to 12 months.  Abound is essentially an overlay that sits on top of the existing Vistana system, so weeks which are assigned to Abound still have to abide by the same rules (within Vistana) as weeks not assigned.  Otherwise Abound folks could snatch all of the prime inventory at 13 months and leave Vistana owners with the dregs at the resorts they actually own.


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## grrrah

VacationForever said:


> My estimation is that it is always going to be more expensive to book Vistana properties in Abound.  I will certainly continue to use SOs to book back into Vistana properties.
> 
> As an example, I only get 3225 SOs for Desert Springs Villas 1 red season, but I need 4225 points to book the peak weeks in March.


For the most part you are correct, with the exception of Maui (or Lagunamar i thought I read).  In the past I have used SO from Maui resorts to go to Princeville for a change.  In this case, not counting possible fees, I would have some Abound points left over (~25-30%) depending on week of the year, if I were to enroll my Maui week.

For example, 6200 for the maui deposit, 4225 to book the week I usually travel at any of the Kauai resorts (princeville, waiohai).


----------



## VacationForever

grrrah said:


> For the most part you are correct, with the exception of Maui (or Lagunamar i thought I read).  In the past I have used SO from Maui resorts to go to Princeville for a change.  In this case, not counting possible fees, I would have some Abound points left over (~25-30%) depending on week of the year, if I were to enroll my Maui week.
> 
> For example, 6200 for the maui deposit, 4225 to book the week I usually travel at any of the Kauai resorts (princeville, waiohai).


You are right about finding sweet spots in cross bookings.  However, don't forget about the skim.  If Princeville is awarded 4225 Abound points, it is going to take 5000+ points to book.


----------



## VacationForever

@grrrah Now that I am home from lunch, I have pulled Waiohai's points chart for booking.  As you can see, you get some pocket change for reserving at Waiohai but not as much as looking at points that are being awarded for ownership at the resort.  You get more pocket change for less popular period.  I assume Princeville's number to be somewhat similar.


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## JIMinNC

dioxide45 said:


> In years past, didn't we see some SDO deposits into RCI much further out than 12 months?



I can't address you specific question on SDO, but I'm familiar with a similar situation within the Hilton HGVC system. Back ten years or so ago when we owned at Kaanapali Beach Club before we sold that and bought into MVC, we would often deposit our KBC week into RCI and trade into one of the Big Island HGVC units. HGVC would do bulk banks into RCI in roughly February for almost all of the following calendar year (for example, they would bulk bank their 2013 weeks in February 2012). So, if you could go online the day they made that bulk deposit, you could do an instant exchange for almost any date you wanted in the following year. That was even though HGVC owners can't reserve their home week more than 12 months out.

My understanding was the way they can do that was the program manager has the right in the T&Cs to forecast usage and do bulk banks based on that expected usage. If you recall, MVC has language like that in their T&Cs on forecasting and reserving. I assume Vistana might have that same right?


----------



## timsi

JIMinNC said:


> I can't address you specific question on SDO, but I'm familiar with a similar situation within the Hilton HGVC system. Back ten years or so ago when we owned at Kaanapali Beach Club before we sold that and bought into MVC, we would often deposit our KBC week into RCI and trade into one of the Big Island HGVC units. HGVC would do bulk banks into RCI in roughly February for almost all of the following calendar year (for example, they would bulk bank their 2013 weeks in February 2012). So, if you could go online the day they made that bulk deposit, you could do an instant exchange for almost any date you wanted in the following year. That was even though HGVC owners can't reserve their home week more than 12 months out.
> 
> My understanding was the way they can do that was the program manager has the right in the T&Cs to forecast usage and do bulk banks based on that expected usage. If you recall, MVC has language like that in their T&Cs on forecasting and reserving. I assume Vistana might have that same right?


The Vistana resorts have specific rules, they do not allow the developer to deposit before the window opens for the owners.


----------



## dioxide45

I wonder if Trust Point owners are able to reserve this new Vistana inventory? I know the option may not be available online, but what if you call?


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## GregT

I did a quick search in the Sightings forum and all WPORV bulk banks that I found were within 12 months of check-in.   While not conclusive, it certainly does support the thesis above that Vistana isn’t going to release any reservations more than 12 months out.

It will be interesting to see if Marriott continues this practice or tries to do something to make the Trust weeks available earlier than 12 months out.

Best,

Greg


----------



## Dean

GregT said:


> I did a quick search in the Sightings forum and all WPORV bulk banks that I found were within 12 months of check-in.   While not conclusive, it certainly does support the thesis above that Vistana isn’t going to release any reservations more than 12 months out.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if Marriott continues this practice or tries to do something to make the Trust weeks available earlier than 12 months out.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg


The reality is that often even restrictions written into the POS are often not difficult to change on the management company side (talking in general) and that most of the time, the management company has close to 100% control over reservation procedures.  Since the trust is separate, I'd think that would give them even more latitude.


----------



## dioxide45

Dean said:


> The reality is that often even restrictions written into the POS are often not difficult to change on the management company side (talking in general) and that most of the time, the management company has close to 100% control over reservation procedures.  Since the trust is separate, I'd think that would give them even more latitude.


But the trust is still bound by the reservation limitations set forth in the resort CCRs and Reservation Procedures. It was already posted in an old message a letter from someone inside corp to a resort General Manager that Vistana inventory would all be available at the 12 month mark.


----------



## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> But the trust is still bound by the reservation limitations set forth in the resort CCRs and Reservation Procedures. It was already posted in an old message a letter from someone inside corp to a resort General Manager that Vistana inventory would all be available at the 12 month mark.


I can't speak to Vistana/Westin but I have yet to see a POS that didn't have dramatic flexibility for the reservation system to shift at the whim of the management company.  I've also never seen a POS that wasn't relatively easy to change if the management company truly wanted to do so.  I'm sure there are exceptions but I doubt this is one.  I'd point out that the earlier MVC resorts did not have the 13 month option included and that changed much later and that the trust was created much later also altering reservations and timing across the board affecting members of weeks as well due to competition for reservations.  So I wouldn't hold out anything as an absolute that wasn't obviously and specifically detrimental to the entire system/membership at large AND specifically excluded in the POS.  And I'd specifically discount any effectiveness of anyone who says they'll sue, this wasn't the system they signed up for, they'll complain or class action.  Timeshares change and sometimes it doesn't work for everyone with what it evolves into, that's part of the risk we all agreed to when we dove in.  Please no one take this as a personal reflection or lack of sympathy, just as my opinion on the realities involved.


----------



## VacationForever

POS ?  [deleted] Point of Sales?


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## Dean

VacationForever said:


> POS ?  [Deleted] Point of Sales?


Public Offering Statement


----------



## VacationForever

Dean said:


> Public Offering Statement


Thank you.


----------



## Dean

VacationForever said:


> Thank you.


Sure but you explanation might be closer to the truth from a members standpoint.


----------



## dioxide45

Dean said:


> I can't speak to Vistana/Westin but I have yet to see a POS that didn't have dramatic flexibility for the reservation system to shift at the whim of the management company.  I've also never seen a POS that wasn't relatively easy to change if the management company truly wanted to do so.  I'm sure there are exceptions but I doubt this is one.  I'd point out that the earlier MVC resorts did not have the 13 month option included and that changed much later and that the trust was created much later also altering reservations and timing across the board affecting members of weeks as well due to competition for reservations.  So I wouldn't hold out anything as an absolute that wasn't obviously and specifically detrimental to the entire system/membership at large AND specifically excluded in the POS.  And I'd specifically discount any effectiveness of anyone who says they'll sue, this wasn't the system they signed up for, they'll complain or class action.  Timeshares change and sometimes it doesn't work for everyone with what it evolves into, that's part of the risk we all agreed to when we dove in.  Please no one take this as a personal reflection or lack of sympathy, just as my opinion on the realities involved.


We aren't necessarily just talking about POS here, it is CC&R and a change to those often require a vote of the majority of ownership.


----------



## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> We aren't necessarily just talking about POS here, it is CC&R and a change to those often require a vote of the majority of ownership.


As I said, I haven't looked at these specifically but the ones I've seen for others would only require a vote of the majority of the membership if it was a clear negative for the membership as a whole, not just a portion.  I don't think one could easily make that argument here.  We'll see if anything happens, as I've said before, it's going to get real interesting once things actually start changing.


----------



## bizaro86

Dean said:


> I can't speak to Vistana/Westin but I have yet to see a POS that didn't have dramatic flexibility for the reservation system to shift at the whim of the management company.  I've also never seen a POS that wasn't relatively easy to change if the management company truly wanted to do so.  I'm sure there are exceptions but I doubt this is one.  I'd point out that the earlier MVC resorts did not have the 13 month option included and that changed much later and that the trust was created much later also altering reservations and timing across the board affecting members of weeks as well due to competition for reservations.  So I wouldn't hold out anything as an absolute that wasn't obviously and specifically detrimental to the entire system/membership at large AND specifically excluded in the POS.  And I'd specifically discount any effectiveness of anyone who says they'll sue, this wasn't the system they signed up for, they'll complain or class action.  Timeshares change and sometimes it doesn't work for everyone with what it evolves into, that's part of the risk we all agreed to when we dove in.  Please no one take this as a personal reflection or lack of sympathy, just as my opinion on the realities involved.



Your opinion is certainly noted. As a comment, I would offer the note that Vistana tried to start charging fees for guest names on all reservations. A number of the original Sheraton resorts have free guests in the CCRs, and that was pointed out by eagle eyed Tuggers who complained en masse and had it changed back, and to this day VSN reservations pay a guest fee and home resort doesn't.

So I guess I would say that complaining/threatening a class action is useless, with the exception that if you have an irrefutable legal position to stand on even a timeshare developer will back down with enough complaints, and this specific one has in the past. I haven't combed through the documents to be sure, but if reservations aren't allowed in the CCRs past 12 months Marriott can't just change that because its convenient for them - the SDO CCRs have a mechanism for changing them included, and I doubt giving 13 months to the trust would pass.


----------



## Eric B

My guess would be that the Vistana CC&Rs don't address reservation periods to universally prohibit 12-month bookings.  My WSJ VGV fixed weeks are automatically reserved for me at 18 months and can float at 12 months; I understand that at least some SBP owners can reserve 2 years in advance.  There are a few I'm aware of that have some restrictions but it seems to be on a resort-specific basis.


----------



## Dean

bizaro86 said:


> Your opinion is certainly noted. As a comment, I would offer the note that Vistana tried to start charging fees for guest names on all reservations. A number of the original Sheraton resorts have free guests in the CCRs, and that was pointed out by eagle eyed Tuggers who complained en masse and had it changed back, and to this day VSN reservations pay a guest fee and home resort doesn't.
> 
> So I guess I would say that complaining/threatening a class action is useless, with the exception that if you have an irrefutable legal position to stand on even a timeshare developer will back down with enough complaints, and this specific one has in the past. I haven't combed through the documents to be sure, but if reservations aren't allowed in the CCRs past 12 months Marriott can't just change that because its convenient for them - the SDO CCRs have a mechanism for changing them included, and I doubt giving 13 months to the trust would pass.


Thanks.  If I understand your post correctly, this was a situation that was in specific violation of the legal documents as they stood at the time.  In that circumstance I think it would be fairly easy to prevail.  They could potentially have changed the documents first and it's very possible the outcome would have been different.  This happened with DVC for OKW & VB back at the turn of the century where the majority of owners at those 2 resorts had free Disney tickets through 1999.  DVC first interpreted that borrowed points could not be used for those tickets but it was changed because there was no basis for that decision that could be supported by the POS.  But that's not a situation I'm referencing.  What I'm saying is 2 things, that there is a mechanism for changing the POS which often isn't difficult for things that are not obviously detrimental to the Membership as a whole and that there is a LOT of flexibility in reservation decisions for every such set of documents I've ever seen and I suspect here as well.


----------



## bizaro86

Dean said:


> Thanks.  If I understand your post correctly, this was a situation that was in specific violation of the legal documents as they stood at the time.  In that circumstance I think it would be fairly easy to prevail.  They could potentially have changed the documents first and it's very possible the outcome would have been different.  This happened with DVC for OKW & VB back at the turn of the century where the majority of owners at those 2 resorts had free Disney tickets through 1999.  DVC first interpreted that borrowed points could not be used for those tickets but it was changed because there was no basis for that decision that could be supported by the POS.  But that's not a situation I'm referencing.  What I'm saying is 2 things, that there is a mechanism for changing the POS which often isn't difficult for things that are not obviously detrimental to the Membership as a whole and that there is a LOT of flexibility in reservation decisions for every such set of documents I've ever seen and I suspect here as well.



I looked up the CCRs for SDO. While the right to rent a unit is enshrined in those documents recorded on title, the reservations procedures are indeed left to the associations "Rules and Regulations" which are almost certainly much easier to amend. I think all owners should have the same reservation period (and will push for 13 months for deeded owners if they give that to trust owners) but it is certainly a weaker protection, which is disappointing.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> I looked up the CCRs for SDO. While the right to rent a unit is enshrined in those documents recorded on title, the reservations procedures are indeed left to the associations "Rules and Regulations" which are almost certainly much easier to amend. I think all owners should have the same reservation period (and will push for 13 months for deeded owners if they give that to trust owners) but it is certainly a weaker protection, which is disappointing.


I think that is the only way they could do it, or they could do something like they have on the Marriott side where consecutive or concurrent reservations from more than one ownership qualifies for 13 month reservations. But these changes would apply to all owners and not just the trust. At a minimum, this would also likely require a vote by the board who could also voluntarily take it to the larger ownership for a vote.

What I understand, from when Marriott amended most of the Reservation Procedures at the MVC properties shortly after DC rollout in 2010, is that they had to have board approval to amend the procedures. The only difference here is that the procedures amended on Marriott weeks all those years ago really wasn't much of a change, where adding a new 13 month reservation window to Vistana weeks would be a pretty significant change.


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> I think that is the only way they could do it, or they could do something like they have on the Marriott side where consecutive or concurrent reservations from more than one ownership qualifies for 13 month reservations. But these changes would apply to all owners and not just the trust. At a minimum, this would also likely require a vote by the board who could also voluntarily take it to the larger ownership for a vote.



Unfortunately, my experience is that TS boards (especially the hotel chain ones) rubber stamp developer requests. SDO isn't independently controlled and I don't expect any push back. 

I do think they'd have to offer equal protection, but that could just be the "book a string" provision, which would allow the DC trust to book a huge string containing all the good weeks.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> Unfortunately, my experience is that TS boards (especially the hotel chain ones) rubber stamp developer requests. SDO isn't independently controlled and I don't expect any push back.
> 
> I do think they'd have to offer equal protection, but that could just be the "book a string" provision, which would allow the DC trust to book a huge string containing all the good weeks.


Marriott does however have limits on the percentage of inventory the release at 13 months. So if they did change reservation procedures, I would expect that type of limitation to still be in place.

Another thing, do they even have the appetite to change it? Perhaps not, given pushback they could get from owners. Especially single week owners at the resorts.


----------



## bizaro86

dioxide45 said:


> Marriott does however have limits on the percentage of inventory the release at 13 months. So if they did change reservation procedures, I would expect that type of limitation to still be in place.



My inclination to trust that Marriott will balance my interests as a resale owner of something sold two developers ago equally with those buying what they're selling now isn't very high. 50% of SDO inventory for the good weeks going into the trust at 13 months plus a string could be a huge degradation. Inventory got way tighter at sdo when sheraton flex came in, so I'm not optimistic about this change.


----------



## dioxide45

bizaro86 said:


> My inclination to trust that Marriott will balance my interests as a resale owner of something sold two developers ago equally with those buying what they're selling now isn't very high. 50% of SDO inventory for the good weeks going into the trust at 13 months plus a string could be a huge degradation. Inventory got way tighter at sdo when sheraton flex came in, so I'm not optimistic about this change.


It isn't even a change, just speculation. We have seen written word from a Marriott Vacations executive that Vistana reservations will be at 12 months inside Abound. So most of this right here is just guessing, and for some it's perhaps wishful thinking.


----------



## Dean

bizaro86 said:


> I looked up the CCRs for SDO. While the right to rent a unit is enshrined in those documents recorded on title, the reservations procedures are indeed left to the associations "Rules and Regulations" which are almost certainly much easier to amend. I think all owners should have the same reservation period (and will push for 13 months for deeded owners if they give that to trust owners) but it is certainly a weaker protection, which is disappointing.


I've never seen one that didn't.  There is anther complexity though.  Each resort has it's own legalities and then the overlay exchange system has rules as well.  Normally the overlay system is EASY to change, the individual resorts can be more difficult depending.  Even if a change is forthcoming, I would expect changes or potential changes across the board for all owners.  Much like when MVC started allowing 13 month reservations which is clearly negative to a subset of owners.  Regardless of what does or does not happen, it's very likely the changes will be negative to some owners.  I recall the thread's back in 2010 when MVC rolled out the points system.  


bizaro86 said:


> Unfortunately, my experience is that TS boards (especially the hotel chain ones) rubber stamp developer requests. SDO isn't independently controlled and I don't expect any push back.
> 
> I do think they'd have to offer equal protection, but that could just be the "book a string" provision, which would allow the DC trust to book a huge string containing all the good weeks.


Agreed and part of my contention that such changes would likely not be difficult.  It would have to be clearly outside the rules AND negative to the masses to be an issueeI would think.  Though the specifics of the underlying individual resort systems could be different (and more or less difficult to change) than I've seen elsewhere.


----------



## dioxide45

Here is confirmation from the FAQ posted today on the MVC website;


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## Dean

dioxide45 said:


> Here is confirmation from the FAQ posted today on the MVC website;
> View attachment 63138


Thanks for posting the info.


----------



## dioxide45

I find this footnote on the new Vistana point charts to be interesting. It is even there for resorts that have been added to the MVC Trust;


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## kozykritter

dioxide45 said:


> I find this footnote on the new Vistana point charts to be interesting. It is even there for resorts that have been added to the MVC Trust;
> View attachment 63157


Going by the placement of the "only", I'm guessing that is meant to convey that you can't use Club Points through Interval to exchange into it.  They've now extended that prohibition to Vistana properties as well, as someone predicted along the way.


----------



## dioxide45

kozykritter said:


> Going by the placement of the "only", I'm guessing that is meant to convey that you can't use Club Points through Interval to exchange into it.  They've now extended that prohibition to Vistana properties as well, as someone predicted along the way.


In the MVC system they have an indicator of E an T to indicate Exchange and Trust. I get the impression that this footnote is indicating that these aren't available as Trust reservations. I wouldn't expect the point chart to indicate anything in regard to Interval International. But what you say is a possible scenario.


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## dougp26364

As to the 13 month window there are a couple of things I think need to be considered.

1. Marriott allows owners to elect points further out than 12 months. If an owner elects to deposit their unit into Abound for points, that unit will become available under the Abound booking rules, which will allow for the 13 month window. At this point I’ve deposited the majority of my weeks into the trust points pool as far in advance as we could. Considerably further out than 12 months. They KNOW that inventory is available as they will make it available to trust owners at 13 months

2.Inventory deposited into the trust will follow trust rules, not SDO, Westin or Vistana rules. Some resorts that might have been very easy to obtain could become less so as time rolls on. I’ve noticed this happen with Marriott post DC program, but it’s taken years for inventory to morph into what it is today from what it was 20 years ago.

3. I assume management companies keep track of booking preference and inventory demand using a dynamic tracking system. They know when/where excess inventory will be available. It’s likely that will play a role in booking 13 months in advance. Times where owners are heavily competing for weeks isn’t as likely to show up at 13 months as lower demand inventory where a resort might sit at 75% capacity.
Of course this can be tricky. CoVid causing cancellations and owners scrambling to use a backlog of saved points can really mess with these numbers. Initially I would guess Marriott wouldn’t rely on this method to determine 13 month availability 

Keep in mind this is only an educated guess and not fact. It’s my opinion on what’s likely to happen based on past experience and reasoning


----------



## kozykritter

dougp26364 said:


> As to the 13 month window there are a couple of things I think need to be considered.
> 
> 1. Marriott allows owners to elect points further out than 12 months. If an owner elects to deposit their unit into Abound for points, that unit will become available under the Abound booking rules, which will allow for the 13 month window. At this point I’ve deposited the majority of my weeks into the trust points pool as far in advance as we could. Considerably further out than 12 months. They KNOW that inventory is available as they will make it available to trust owners at 13 months
> 
> 2.Inventory deposited into the trust will follow trust rules, not SDO, Westin or Vistana rules. Some resorts that might have been very easy to obtain could become less so as time rolls on. I’ve noticed this happen with Marriott post DC program, but it’s taken years for inventory to morph into what it is today from what it was 20 years ago.
> 
> 3. I assume management companies keep track of booking preference and inventory demand using a dynamic tracking system. They know when/where excess inventory will be available. It’s likely that will play a role in booking 13 months in advance. Times where owners are heavily competing for weeks isn’t as likely to show up at 13 months as lower demand inventory where a resort might sit at 75% capacity.
> Of course this can be tricky. CoVid causing cancellations and owners scrambling to use a backlog of saved points can really mess with these numbers. Initially I would guess Marriott wouldn’t rely on this method to determine 13 month availability
> 
> Keep in mind this is only an educated guess and not fact. It’s my opinion on what’s likely to happen based on past experience and reasoning


For #2, I see where you could guess that but is not correct based upon the Abound Exchange procedures released by MVC today and the accompanying FAQs about Abound on the MVC owner website. They said in clear terms that nobody will be permitted to book Vistana inventory sooner than 12 months out through Abound, same rights that the Vistana owners have themselves for booking their ownership.


----------



## daviator

dougp26364 said:


> As to the 13 month window there are a couple of things I think need to be considered.
> 
> 1. Marriott allows owners to elect points further out than 12 months. If an owner elects to deposit their unit into Abound for points, that unit will become available under the Abound booking rules, which will allow for the 13 month window. At this point I’ve deposited the majority of my weeks into the trust points pool as far in advance as we could. Considerably further out than 12 months. They KNOW that inventory is available as they will make it available to trust owners at 13 months
> 
> 2.Inventory deposited into the trust will follow trust rules, not SDO, Westin or Vistana rules. Some resorts that might have been very easy to obtain could become less so as time rolls on. I’ve noticed this happen with Marriott post DC program, but it’s taken years for inventory to morph into what it is today from what it was 20 years ago.
> 
> 3. I assume management companies keep track of booking preference and inventory demand using a dynamic tracking system. They know when/where excess inventory will be available. It’s likely that will play a role in booking 13 months in advance. Times where owners are heavily competing for weeks isn’t as likely to show up at 13 months as lower demand inventory where a resort might sit at 75% capacity.
> Of course this can be tricky. CoVid causing cancellations and owners scrambling to use a backlog of saved points can really mess with these numbers. Initially I would guess Marriott wouldn’t rely on this method to determine 13 month availability
> 
> Keep in mind this is only an educated guess and not fact. It’s my opinion on what’s likely to happen based on past experience and reasoning


Agree with @kozykritter.  The restrictions limiting booking to 12 months on the Vistana properties are baked into the CC&Rs that are recorded with each deed.  MVC can deposit inventory (deeds) into the trust, but they are still bound by the terms and conditions attached to those deeds, they can't circumvent the CC&Rs.  Owners of Vistana weeks cannot book earlier than 12 months, so MVC or its trust, as owners of many Vistana weeks, are no less bound by the same restrictions.  MVC knows this, which is why they've made it quite clear that nobody will be able to book Vistana properties more than 12 months in advance.


----------



## dougp26364

daviator said:


> Agree with @kozykritter.  The restrictions limiting booking to 12 months on the Vistana properties are baked into the CC&Rs that are recorded with each deed.  MVC can deposit inventory (deeds) into the trust, but they are still bound by the terms and conditions attached to those deeds, they can't circumvent the CC&Rs.  Owners of Vistana weeks cannot book earlier than 12 months, so MVC or its trust, as owners of many Vistana weeks, are no less bound by the same restrictions.  MVC knows this, which is why they've made it quite clear that nobody will be able to book Vistana properties more than 12 months in advance.



Well that’s good news for Vistana owners and there should be little to nothing to worry about.

I do understand why there might be concern, because it seems as if things get changed (enhanced).

It will be interesting to see the real program so the speculation can end. It won’t surprise me to see Vistana inventory available at 13 months in Abound. It won’t surprise me if it’s not available until 12 months.

Over the years I’ve learned to buy what I’m happiest owning and using. For us that was Marriott. Vistana/Sheraton/Westin added inventory is a plus, but I didn’t buy into those systems for various reasons and if I’m never able to book a stay at one of them, I won’t be disappointed. Somehow, I feel more strongly that, over time as the systems are blended, we’ll see all inventory, including Vistana, available at 13 months.

Here’s a couple changes that were I don’t think were ever suppose to happen but did.

1. Ritz properties were suppose to be exclusive to Ritz owners, but can now be booked by MVC owners and soon (I assume) Vistana owners.

2. post 2010 resale buyers were NEVER supposed to be able to enroll their weeks in the DC.

If I think longer I can probably come up with a few more things that were never supposed to happen. Intially it might be true of the 12 month booking window. 10 years down the road who knows.

The one thing I do know is I’m tired of hearing about Marriott’s labor pains. I want to see the baby.


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## kozykritter

dougp26364 said:


> The one thing I do know is I’m tired of hearing about Marriott’s labor pains. I want to see the baby.


Yeah, but what if it's ugly and smells funny?  Will you still love it? 

I agree with you, never is a very long time.
It would be naive for us to believe that Marriott doesn't have a long-term plan for complete merger of the Vistana system into MVC meaning the dissolution of the VSN, elimination of SOs and the allowing of 13-month booking. It's just not what's happening right now. Let's try to enjoy the present moment as much as possible.

Some will say this merger could never happen for various legal and practical reasons but as you pointed out, many things that could never happen over the years did. MVW made an investment when it bought ILG and like any business it's going to try to get the greatest return that it can on the assets it purchased through acquired asset disposals, integration and cost reduction. We are all along for that ride. For now it's a relatively smooth one in the overall scheme of things, lack of communication aside. Keep your seatbelt handy


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## Dean

dougp26364 said:


> Well that’s good news for Vistana owners and there should be little to nothing to worry about.
> 
> I do understand why there might be concern, because it seems as if things get changed (enhanced).
> 
> It will be interesting to see the real program so the speculation can end. It won’t surprise me to see Vistana inventory available at 13 months in Abound. It won’t surprise me if it’s not available until 12 months.
> 
> Over the years I’ve learned to buy what I’m happiest owning and using. For us that was Marriott. Vistana/Sheraton/Westin added inventory is a plus, but I didn’t buy into those systems for various reasons and if I’m never able to book a stay at one of them, I won’t be disappointed. Somehow, I feel more strongly that, over time as the systems are blended, we’ll see all inventory, including Vistana, available at 13 months.
> 
> Here’s a couple changes that were I don’t think were ever suppose to happen but did.
> 
> 1. Ritz properties were suppose to be exclusive to Ritz owners, but can now be booked by MVC owners and soon (I assume) Vistana owners.
> 
> 2. post 2010 resale buyers were NEVER supposed to be able to enroll their weeks in the DC.
> 
> If I think longer I can probably come up with a few more things that were never supposed to happen. Intially it might be true of the 12 month booking window. 10 years down the road who knows.
> 
> The one thing I do know is I’m tired of hearing about Marriott’s labor pains. I want to see the baby.


13 month reservation option for weeks was added later.  Horizon's was rolled into MVC.


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## kyaustin

Saw this posted on the Facebook Marriott/Vistana page with a new communication Vistana sent out, I know this is the Marriott board but seemed there were a lot of comments In this thread about the what if’s.  I tried to post a screenshot but kept hitting a file is too large error, so here’s the link to the Facebook post:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/421297155809371/permalink/782229403049476/

update:
I now see this should have been on the ‘Updated Abound info on MVC website‘ thread - I thought it was this one - sorry.


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## dougp26364

Dean said:


> 13 month reservation option for weeks was added later.  Horizon's was rolled into MVC.



Basically, they’ll eventually find a reason and a way to make any “enhancement” they feel will bring in more sales or kick start stagnant sales numbers. Add a new tier, add an enhancement et…..


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## Dean

dougp26364 said:


> Basically, they’ll eventually find a reason and a way to make any “enhancement” they feel will bring in more sales or kick start stagnant sales numbers. Add a new tier, add an enhancement et…..


That was essentially my point earlier, not necessarily that they would make changes but that they could.  The reality is that while the legal documents do provide protections, they don't provide nearly as much as people think they do.  They could certainly tie come changes into enrollment agreements.


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## dougp26364

Dean said:


> That was essentially my point earlier, not necessarily that they would make changes but that they could.  The reality is that while the legal documents do provide protections, they don't provide nearly as much as people think they do.  They could certainly tie come changes into enrollment agreements.



After 24 years of timeshare ownership, I’ve come to realize that everything is subject to change. Contracts and rules mean very little when the people writing them have the power to amend them.


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## dioxide45

I found this interesting. We booked an II getaway into Sheraton Vistana Villages for later this year and the unit code began with a D, which would seem to indicate that the deposit came from the MVC Destinations Trust. THough perhaps it is possible this also indicates it came from Sheraton Flex inventory.


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## WahooWah

Does anyone know how to get a copy of the most recent version of the MVCI Destinations Points Trust Disclosure Statement?

This would be the document that must be given to all new purchasers of DP.  I'm unsure of what form it is in now as it is a massive document.  It used to be given as a CD-ROM but I think that has changed now.


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## timsi

No new Vistana deeds conveyed to the trust? Shouldn't we have more as we are getting closer to the launch?


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## dioxide45

timsi said:


> No new Vistana deeds conveyed to the trust? Shouldn't we have more as we are getting closer to the launch?


Nothing new. In the past Marriott has conveyed inventory about two times a year.


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## timsi

dioxide45 said:


> Nothing new. In the past Marriott has conveyed inventory about two times a year.


It seems in 2010 they conveyed in July and October. The needs may be different now, a lot more Marriott enrolled week owners/trust owners you want to create inventory for.


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## dioxide45

timsi said:


> It seems in 2010 they conveyed in July and October. The needs may be different now, a lot more Marriott enrolled week owners/trust owners you want to create inventory for.


Perhaps, but I doubt it. These conveyances cost thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars to process and record. The more weeks they can convey in a single notice, the cheaper it is per week.


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