# Need advice on DVC purchase



## cgards (Apr 24, 2014)

I'm just beginning to research a possible purchase of DVC points. We own points and a legacy week at Marriott, but we visit WDW in April every year and I think we can save some money short and long term by buying DVC.

Here are a few questions if anyone can please weigh in:

1. Resale or direct from Disney? We did a Disney presentation a couple weeks ago, but the cost per point is so much higher buying direct. Resale seems to make more sense financially. Any big disadvantages to buying resale besides the restrictions on cruises?

2. There are a lot of resale boards out there. Are there any in particular that people would recommend or avoid?

3. If I buy, say, at Saratoga, can I use my points at any DVC, even Vero?

4. We have 2 children (12 and 9) and tend to be in the parks most of the day. We generally stay at Value Resorts to keep our costs down. Does it even make sense to buy DVC if we are going to be off property most of the day?

Thanks in advance for the help. Any other advice would be appreciated.


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## chalee94 (Apr 24, 2014)

> 1. Resale or direct from Disney? We did a Disney presentation a couple weeks ago, but the cost per point is so much higher buying direct. Resale seems to make more sense financially. Any big disadvantages to buying resale besides the restrictions on cruises?



resale is a much better deal.  the "restrictions" cost a lot of pts and are not always available (and resale buyers can still rent their pts and pay cash for cruises or whatever and still come out ahead).

the only reason to buy direct is that you must have VGF (villas at the grand floridian) and want to buy a specific fixed week there or something.




> 2. There are a lot of resale boards out there. Are there any in particular that people would recommend or avoid?



fidelity is the broker that has the most "iffy" reputation. i bought through the timeshare store and thought they did a great job.



> 3. If I buy, say, at Saratoga, can I use my points at any DVC, even Vero?



"subject to availability" and that can be a big deal.  getting vero for sept is probably a breeze but getting vero in mid-summer is not a lock at 7 months out.

if you have to stay at a certain resort most of the time, buy there. otherwise, saratoga springs is a great combination of low buy-in, low dues and length of contract.



> 4. We have 2 children (12 and 9) and tend to be in the parks most of the day. We generally stay at Value Resorts to keep our costs down. Does it even make sense to buy DVC if we are going to be off property most of the day?



your children will probably get older. most DVC owners lose touch with the commando side of themselves and relax a little more - after all, if you miss something this trip, you still have pts for another few decades that are on the way.  another question might be whether you will continue to use the DVC contract when your kids leave the nest - might be better to rent for a few years rather than make the commitment.

and if you are happy at value resorts, i would not encourage you to think that DVC will save you money.  there's nothing wrong with value resorts or offsite (some of the deals i've gotten through II have been amazing - sometimes a 2BR villa for less than half of a value resort room.)

but if you are a disney nut and make regular (at least every-other-year) trips to wdw and are willing to pay a premium to stay onsite, you are definitely a good candidate for DVC.


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## elaine (Apr 24, 2014)

my advice: don't buy any TS including DVC until you "need" it. Right now, a Value works for you--so I would not buy DVC. Also, I agree with PP--there are tons of great offsite TS, you could even use II getaways if you don't want to trade a Marriott week. If you are on the parks all day, I don't even really see a reason to stay onsite. 
Another option would be to buy resale and only buy enough points to stay every other year at DVC with banking and borrowing. That way, you can cut your outlay costs in 1/2, still stay at a Value EOY, and then see how you like DVC. As kids get older, vacation habits and tastes change many times (ours did). That way, you are not locked into DVC/WDW and smaller contracts ar also much easier to resell, if needed. 
SSR points can be used at any DVC @ 7 months. But, in high seasons, options will be limited. You should be able to get another resort, but maybe not your 1st choice.
We used the Timeshare Store. Elaine


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## rickandcindy23 (Apr 24, 2014)

I used Seth Nock and really enjoyed his personal service.  I wouldn't use anyone else, and he is a TUG member, a licensed broker, and he knows his stuff.  What a nice guy, he takes the time, and he gets the lowest possible deal.  The other people in his office are great, too.    

I will be buying points from him sometime this year.  I had a bad experience with another company, and it's one of the big ones, so I choose to deal with someone who knows how important it is for me to get the best price on DVC resale. 

I am very concerned Disney is going to reduce benefits for resale buyers sometime in the near future.  They gave plenty of warning last time, so people could get their contracts purchased as grandfathered, but the benefits were not terribly reduced.  I don't miss the benefits I don't have, in other words.  I would be disappointed if my points were only good for the resort I purchase.  That is one DVC members have heard from sales.  So DVC salespeople also like to scare buyers.


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## chrisdu (May 1, 2014)

One of the nice things about owning DVC is that there is a well established rental market. If I don't go to DIsney this year, I don't have to worry much about getting rid of my points. I own some other timeshares and have to do quite a bit of work to rent them out. And sometimes I have to bite the bullet of some financial loss. This has never been the case for DVC points.


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## SMHarman (May 1, 2014)

chrisdu said:


> One of the nice things about owning DVC is that there is a well established rental market. If I don't go to DIsney this year, I don't have to worry much about getting rid of my points. I own some other timeshares and have to do quite a bit of work to rent them out. And sometimes I have to bite the bullet of some financial loss. This has never been the case for DVC points.


Which is also a reason to not buy at Disney and instead to rent from David or someone else. You're paying $2 above owning for the benefit of having no capital committed to DVC no buy / sell costs etc. 
The 'math' I ran made owning Disney at current buy in costs a marginal proposition. 
Finally remember you are truly buying a depreciating asset as in 204? Or somewhere the asset price falls to zero as the lease expires. 


Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


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## TSPam (May 2, 2014)

Hi,
Have you thought of buying a very small contract to get the disney discounts on annual passes and then rent the extra that you might want in a given year.


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## cgards (May 2, 2014)

Thanks for all the good advice. We still haven't made up our mind, but if we do anything it will be on the resale market.
Here's another question. Hilton Head offers good value compared to the WDW properties. Why is that? If I buy, say, 200 points at HH, is there any limitation to trading in to SS or somewhere else at WDW? I presume the booking window is shorter, but can I realistically expect to book in to a WDW resort if I own at HH? I have visited the HH property twice in the past two years and like it. As our kids grow and we age, it might be a good alternative for a home base rather than owning at WDW.
Also, when does the deed expire at HH, and how do the maintenance fees compare to SS or OKW?
Thanks again for the all the help! Much appreciated.


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## mickeymorse (May 2, 2014)

cgards said:


> Thanks for all the good advice. We still haven't made up our mind, but if we do anything it will be on the resale market.
> Here's another question. Hilton Head offers good value compared to the WDW properties. Why is that? If I buy, say, 200 points at HH, is there any limitation to trading in to SS or somewhere else at WDW? I presume the booking window is shorter, but can I realistically expect to book in to a WDW resort if I own at HH? I have visited the HH property twice in the past two years and like it. As our kids grow and we age, it might be a good alternative for a home base rather than owning at WDW.
> Also, when does the deed expire at HH, and how do the maintenance fees compare to SS or OKW?
> Thanks again for the all the help! Much appreciated.



As of right now, you have an 11 month booking advantage at your home resort. The remaining resorts open up at 7 months. At that time HH is the same as all others. You could book BCV the same as someone who owns say OKW.

The deed expires at HH IN 2042, the same as OKW, BCV, BWV and VWL. There are some OKW that don't expire until 2057. Disney offered owners  a 15 yr extension. Some took them up on the offer.

HH maintenance fees for 2014 are 6.28/pt. SSR is 4.91/pt (deed expires 2054) and OKW is 5.54/pt.

Hope that helps


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## presley (May 2, 2014)

There are several great resale brokers and they will all educate you on how to use the system.  Here's a couple that haven't been mentioned already.
http://www.resalesdvc.com/

http://dvcbyresale.com/


You can save at buy in by purchasing HHI or Vero, but their MFs are much higher and those are forever.  If you don't care which DVC you stay in while visiting Orlando, you can get a reservation at the 7 month window.  If you care which resort you stay in, you need the 11 month booking window and you should buy where you want to stay.

I don't know how much value resort stays cost.  DVC rooms are considered deluxe villas, but you don't get daily housekeeping like you do in a hotel room.  You have a large room and kitchen, but you also get to clean that for yourself.  There are pluses and minuses to that.  If you really just want to shower and sleep in your room, you probably don't need to buy DVC.  DVC was the first timeshare we bought.  We only used it for sleeping and taking a shower.


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## stanleyu (May 2, 2014)

I can't say enough good things about being a DVC member. We got our first taste of staying on site many years ago, and found that to be the "way to go" for us. Then came DVC - even better.

I think being so very close to everything is an unbelievable advantage. Especially being able to walk to the attractions. That is really true for the Epcot area and MK resorts, and to a lesser extent, Saratoga.

But the cool thing is once you buy. you have your foot in the door and it is SO much easier to take a trip there. If you go through a retailer you have to justify the big cost each trip - but not so if you own your points.

anyway, it REALLY works for me!


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## chrisdu (May 3, 2014)

SMHarman said:


> Which is also a reason to not buy at Disney and instead to rent from David or someone else. You're paying $2 above owning for the benefit of having no capital committed to DVC no buy / sell costs etc.
> The 'math' I ran made owning Disney at current buy in costs a marginal proposition.
> Finally remember you are truly buying a depreciating asset as in 204? Or somewhere the asset price falls to zero as the lease expires.
> 
> ...



It probably will become a depreciating asset at some point, but not now. We have owned the points for a few years. If I decide to sell my points now, I will probably make a nice profit of 5k.


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## SMHarman (May 3, 2014)

chrisdu said:


> It probably will become a depreciating asset at some point, but not now. We have owned the points for a few years. If I decide to sell my points now, I will probably make a nice profit of 5k.



And if you had put the same money on an S&P500 tracker fund for the same duration what would the profit be?  What would the costs to open and close that transaction at Schwab be vs opening and closing DVC?

I'm sure many see an upside just not as big as investing the same $ in your 401K

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk


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## bnoble (May 3, 2014)

> We have owned the points for a few years. If I decide to sell my points now, I will probably make a nice profit of 5k.


Part of this is fortuitous timing.  People who bought just a few years earlier than you are still underwater.


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## littlestar (May 3, 2014)

I'd consider SSR resale points.  That way you wouldn't be locked out of being on Disney property during holidays - say Christmas, New Years, President's Day, etc.  I think Hilton Head properties require attorney involvement for closing because of it being South Carolina and they have higher fees than SSR. 

With SSR you get the longer ending date of 2054, the maintenance fees are lower than HH or Vero, and you don't take a chance of being locked out of Walt Disney World property during holidays (as long as you book at your 11 month booking window). 

Of course, if you are happy with Disney value resorts, I probably wouldn't buy. I'd consider your budget for vacations and what you're spending on value resorts and compare the costs.


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## elaine (May 3, 2014)

I would go with PP advice of SSR, except if you think that you would reasonably go to HHI every other year in the summer in the future, then HHI makes sense, as it is very hard to get HHI in the summer at 7 months. However, you might also consider buying HHI direct from DVC, as the price is not bad, and you pay minimal closing costs. I paid $80 2 years ago direct from DVC. Otherwise, closing is much higher in SC via resale b/c  you must use atty. We love HHI and bought an add on contract there.
It is highly likely at 7 months that you could at least get SSR for Christmas at 7 months. All other times, you should have no issues getting some resort at WDW. If you will only travel at Christmas, then I would buy a DVC at WDW to ensure always getting onsite. A resale SSR is a very good option.


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## PearlCity (May 3, 2014)

I would say if you want Disneyworld and don't care which property at Disneyworld, go for SSR.  The maintainence fees are low like the others said would guarantee you that you will get in on high demand times like Xmas and New Years.  It's not that much more expensive than HHI if you look hard enough for a loaded contract and in the long run will provide you more value.  

I also believe if you are going to buy, buy when your kids are young, then you'll get the most use of it.  

All of the places that people mentioned on here are great places to start.  Fidelity is slow, but if they have a good deal and you are on top of them you should be ok.


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## chrisdu (May 4, 2014)

SMHarman said:


> And if you had put the same money on an S&P500 tracker fund for the same duration what would the profit be?  What would the costs to open and close that transaction at Schwab be vs opening and closing DVC?
> 
> I'm sure many see an upside just not as big as investing the same $ in your 401K
> 
> Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk



We bought DVC mainly for our own use and occasionally rent them out in the years we are not going to Disney. It was never a financial investment for us and honestly I never calculated the financial profit and loss until you brought it up. So I grab the S&P500 from wiki to run the comparison (I know I know it is 100% accurate but should be good enough to get an idea) and my findings as below:

We paid $30K for 500 points back in 2004. If I sell points now $35K (after all the closing cost, commission etc) should be achievable.

1st scenario - pure investment. If we put the same money in S&P500 and do nothing about it, by 2013 we will have $55261 in the fund. 

If we took DVC also as a pure investment (i.e. rent them out every year) $6 per point on top of the maintenance fee should be modest and doable, that's $3000 per year in rental income. Together with the money from selling the points, by 2013 I would have $62000 in bank, slightly better than S&P500. Now that's I don't re-invest my rental income. In theory I should re-invest in more DVC points to level the ground. But everyone knows it is quite a challenge to find such small contract every year. So I assumed I re-invest the rental income in S&P 500 (best of both worlds I guess), by 2013 I will have $42,928 in fund alone. Together with the point sales, I will have $77,928 in bank, $22K ahead of the S&P500 investment option.

Now second scenario - visiting Disney every other year, and rent out the points in the year we don't go. In this case, my rental income would cover all the mf and by 2013 I would just have $35K in bank from the sale. Now with the S&P 500 option, I would need to withdraw $6000 (to rent points from someone else) every other year to have the same holiday. It actually makes a difference in whether I go in odd year or even year. But anyway, the better year leaves me $15120 in the fund (the worse year leaves me $10061). Round 2 DVC option is $20K ahead.

Third scenario - visiting Disney every year. In this case with DVC option I have to find $2500 every year for the maintenance fee. With S&P I need to withdraw $6000 to rent the points. To make the calculation simpler, lets say we don't worry about the $2500 in the DVC option, and with S&P option just withdraw $3500 from the fund. So again with DVC option I will have $35K in the bank after the point sale, with S&P option I will have $ 5479 left in the fund. Round 3 DVC option is $30K ahead.

Frankly I was surprised to see the result as well. I never expected DVC to be profitable. At some point I even doubted if I made mistakes in calculation.  But I double checked and it looks fine. Let me know if anyone finds any errors in the calculation.

Also I agree with bnoble that it is partly due to timing - just like any investment, and history does not necessarily reflect future.


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## cgards (May 4, 2014)

Thanks to everyone who took the time to post. All the comments have been very helpful. 

After giving this a lot of thought and running numbers like chrisdu above did, we've decided not to purchase DVC.

This was not an easy decision, but it was made for financial reasons. If we went with what our hearts told us, we'd bankrupt ourselves by buying 500 points at Grand Floridian.

Here are a few of our reasons:

1. We are park warriors. We get there when the gates open, and we leave long after the sun sets. We use the resorts to sleep, so the Values and Moderates (like Elaine said) work for us right now. This pace won't last forever, but in 10 years when our kids are older and off doing their own thing, we definitely will need a break from Disney.

2. I ran numbers for the next 40 years comparing current high season per night costs for Values against DVC (I used SSR at $74/point resale, purchasing 160 points, for my comparison). I would finance my DVC purchase for 10 years through my home equity line. In year 11, given an assumed annual 4 percent MF increase, there is only a $250 yearly savings by purchasing DVC versus staying at a Value resort for a week during high season. For that $250, I like having my beds made, towels changed and a second bed in the room as opposed to a sleeper.

3. The $250 shrinks the further you go out to 2054, assuming the annual 4 percent MF increase continues, and given the historical rise of per night hotel costs at 2 to 3 percent. By 2054, there really is no savings.

4. I'll be 83 in 2054. I don't think I'll be riding Space Mountain at that point. Yes we could trade through RCI, but we already own plenty of Marriott points that take us to great places and give us more flexibility to stay in larger units than the studio I'd get by buying 160 DVC points at SSR.

I wish I'd looked into DVC 10 years ago when points were cheaper and I was younger. DVC is a wonderful program, but it just doesn't make financial sense for us right now.

So I'll shelve this idea and keep staying at the Value and Moderate resorts. I just booked a four-day trip for September at the Caribbean Beach with free dining. Maybe I'll see some of you there.

Again, I appreciate all the helpful feedback.


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## chrisdu (May 4, 2014)

I think you did the right thing. In the end you made an informed decision that suits you.


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## stoler527 (May 6, 2014)

I don't think that the decision to buy DVC should be all about money.

We also own at Marriott and enjoy the bigger rooms and better service.

However, we bought at AKV because we love to stay there and enjoy the  theming and animals. Also, the value rooms at AKV have the cheapest points requirements of any DVC. And we can usually book one at 11 months as owners.

We are not happy staying in a studio or hotel room. We prefer a two bedroom and really use the washer-dryer. This Spring we have a triple split stay reserved, starting with 4 days at HHI, moving to 5 days at AKV savannah and 3 days at OKW.

I wouldn't buy at SSR unless you enjoy staying there. We don't. Yes, it is a better value, but our vacation days are precious to us and we try to maximize enjoyment.


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## chrisdu (May 6, 2014)

Crafty527 said:


> I wouldn't buy at SSR unless you enjoy staying there. We don't. Yes, it is a better value, but our vacation days are precious to us and we try to maximize enjoyment.



We bought SSR but never stayed there. We don't have kids and don't like to go to the parks during the peak season. So SSR worked well for us. We never had any problem booking into the resorts we wanted at the seven month window.


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## bnoble (May 6, 2014)

> I don't think that the decision to buy DVC should be all about money.


The question: "Should I stay in a DVC Villa for my Disney vacation" should not be all about money.  But, if the answer to that question is yes, then the question:

"Should I rent from an owner, rent from the developer, buy resale, or buy from the developer"  is absolutely all about money.

Hint: the answers are: Yes if visiting infrequently, usually not, yes if visiting frequently, no.


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## chalee94 (May 6, 2014)

chrisdu said:


> We bought SSR but never stayed there. We don't have kids and don't like to go to the parks during the peak season. So SSR worked well for us. We never had any problem booking into the resorts we wanted at the seven month window.



that is nice for you.

but SSR is a giant resort...about 5 times larger than beach club villas (for example), so if everyone buys into SSR and expects to never have to stay there, some of them will wind up disappointed.

if you don't mind staying at SSR it's a good value, but there are numerous threads on the DIS of owners being frustrated with not getting what they want at their 7 month window and their aggravations with the waitlist. some of it depends on when you are traveling and what you expect to trade into, but i wouldn't sell people on the "sure thing" of never having to stay at SSR and always getting what they want at 7 months out.

i have been fortunate to stay at bay lake tower and the VGF shortly after each one opened.  i have also gotten locked out and my waitlists failed to come through even though i called at exactly 7 months out, such that i "had" to stay at OKW.  (fortunately, i enjoy the cool pastels and gingerbread architecture of my home resort.)


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## DisneyDenis (May 6, 2014)

I own at both BWV and SSR.  I used my BWV points to stay at AKV Savannah View and rented my SSR points for a 13 day stay at Wilderness Lodge in a Studio.

I would not feel bad if forced to stay at SSR.  SSR (like OKW) is next to a golf course. Besides the boat, you could walk over the bridge to Downtown Disney (soon to be re-imagined as Disney Springs). When Disney Springs is completed with a brand new turn of the century Florida riverside town-look and with a major expansion of shopping, resaurants, recreation and entertainment possibilities, SSR will be desireable just for that - let alone the low buy-in and very low MFs. 

In addition my granddaughter can't wait to stay in the 3 bedroom Treehouses at SSR.


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## chrisdu (May 6, 2014)

chalee94 said:


> some of it depends on when you are traveling and what you expect to trade into, but i wouldn't sell people on the "sure thing" of never having to stay at SSR and always getting what they want at 7 months out.



That's exactly my point. I was responding to a previous post that "don't buy SSR unless enjoy staying there". To me it's never black and white like that. Exactly like you said - it depends. My experience in the last 10 years was if you have flexibility and like to travel in shoulder or low season like we do (To us a quieter park is a nicer park), SSR is not a bad option at all - with low buy-in and mf.  Now this may or may not change with the expansion of DVC. Another thing to consider is that unless you want to or are happy to stay in the same resort every time you go to Disney, you are likely to have the same disappointment of not getting what you want at the 7 month window, no matter where your home resort is. We like to try out different resorts, so home resort does not bother us too much.


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## stanleyu (May 6, 2014)

When buying recently I was faced with the same dilemma. I really like BWV or BCV because of the proximity to Epcot and Studios, but usually travel in the less demanding times. And I really like the lower initial cost, lower MFs and farther out end time of SSR. So after a bit of pondering SSR seemed like the best alternative.

And so now, the first time I am using it, I'll be going over Christmas and New Years. Probably will never do that again, but this time it's the right choice. So I booked SSR at the 11-month window and will try for something else at 7-month. Maybe someone will cancel and I can get in! But if not - well, you know the main reason I'm going is to be in the parks, so I'll just make the best of it!


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## elaine (May 7, 2014)

FWIW, we like SSR just fine--we just really like the other DVCs better. If it was SSR or nothing, SSR would be just fine with us.


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## dundey (May 22, 2014)

As far as I'm concerned, a resale DVC purchase is the best timeshare value there is, if you are not financing the purchase.

Can you compare it to other investments?  No - that would be a stupid comparison.  But compared to other timeshares, or even staying at hotels every year, it is a no brainer.

The points can be sold easily if you need the cash, and points can also be rented easily if you don't use them in a given year at around 2X the cost of the maint. fees.


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## czar (May 23, 2014)

dundey said:


> As far as I'm concerned, a resale DVC purchase is the best timeshare value there is, if you are not financing the purchase.
> 
> Can you compare it to other investments?  No - that would be a stupid comparison.  But compared to other timeshares, or even staying at hotels every year, it is a no brainer.
> 
> The points can be sold easily if you need the cash, and points can also be rented easily if you don't use them in a given year at around 2X the cost of the maint. fees.



I was scared of disney at first but now realize what a great value it is resale. Unless you risk renting a trade someone got, which would make me super nervous, it's a huge savings even compared to sale rates. Plus, there are a bunch of options and destinations, and pretty easy to unload. 

I would make certain, next time, to spend more time thinking about where we really want to stay. Although we can use points for most resorts, there's a benefit if there are value rooms or busy seasons.


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## Bailey#1 (May 24, 2014)

dundey said:


> As far as I'm concerned, a resale DVC purchase is the best timeshare value there is, if you are not financing the purchase.
> 
> Can you compare it to other investments?  No - that would be a stupid comparison.  But compared to other timeshares, or even staying at hotels every year, it is a no brainer.
> 
> The points can be sold easily if you need the cash, and points can also be rented easily if you don't use them in a given year at around 2X the cost of the maint. fees.



I have to agree with Dundey on this!


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## blondietink (May 24, 2014)

We have owned at SSR for almost 10 years and have never stayed there once.  Have always been able to trade to another resort at the 7 month window and stayed at OKW, BLT, AKV, BWV and BCV.  Being we are 4 adults, we find the savings we have on food is worth the cost of the timeshare purchase.  We cook most of our meals in our villa.  By our calculations, if we had paid cash for the villas we stayed at, even with the often advertised 40% discount, we came out ahead after 2.5 years. We love the more relaxed way of touring the parks since we have owned DVC.  The kids are older now and like to relax at the pool, too. 

We have also expanded our horizons and went to Aulani last September.  OMG, there is no comparison to any WDW resort.  So, we are saving our points to go to Hawaii again in 2015.  No way could we have ever afforded to go to Hawaii without our DVC points and our Sheraton Options (used them on Maui). 

 Last year I had a few points from banking left over, and was able to rent them though David's.


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