# Another HHonors Devaluation?



## Blues (Feb 19, 2013)

http://hhonors3.hilton.com/en/promotions/program-changes/english.html?wt.mc_id=CMEM_BRI9PoB8wONwGy

http://hhonors3.hilton.com/en/promotions/upcoming-changes-standard-room-rewards/index.html

Haven't really checked out the pre- and post- pricing in terms of number of points, but I suspect that this is yet another devaluation.  Wow, some hotels in high season can cost up to 95000 points!

Also, I'm not very current on the program, so can anybody tell me -- do they still have VIP awards?  AXON?  Anything other special awards?

-Bob


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## toontoy (Feb 19, 2013)

wow that stinks, we have about 500K and now the value is about 250K or so, wonder what the new cat will be, this is the first I have heard about it and we are gold


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## Talent312 (Feb 19, 2013)

What they said...
■ Reward Categories – ... expanding to ten hotel reward categories ...
-- _We're putting our high-demand hotels out of reach._

■ Seasonal Hotel Reward Pricing – ... points vary during certain times ...
-- _In high-season, don't bother looking._

■ 5th Night Free – [VIP discounts] for five or more consecutive nights.
-- _No more 4N reduced rate, now must stay 5N_.


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## bogey21 (Feb 19, 2013)

It seems like an ongoing, continual devaluation for Owners, Members, Participants, or whatever in airline, Time Share and hotel programs. When will it all end?  Why do we keep participating?

George


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## MikeinSoCal (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm going to stop using my Hilton AMEX credit cards.


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## toontoy (Feb 19, 2013)

so I have  a question what would everyone recommend we have a 5 night stay at the HGVC Miami beach but have points to burn should we stay at the Bently Hilton instead?


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## JenMuse (Feb 19, 2013)

MikeinSoCal said:


> I'm going to stop using my Hilton AMEX credit cards.



After the last round of changes, I kept the card and use it only as emergency/back-up. I call every December and ask for a lower interest rate knowing full well, the one I've got is about as low as they'll go for my income and credit rating; so when they decline, I mention canceling the card and they usually offer to waive my membership fee for the year in order to keep me as a customer. 

It's the only reason I still have it basically...they keep waiving the fee.


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## sjuhawk_jd (Feb 19, 2013)

bogey21 said:


> It seems like an ongoing, continual devaluation for Owners, Members, Participants, or whatever in airline, Time Share and hotel programs. When will it all end?  Why do we keep participating?
> 
> George



As long as earning is "free", we will keep on participating. 

Biggest losers are people who transfer their timeshare ownerships (Hilton, Marriott, Starwood) into hotel points (thus points are not free for them). Marriott timeshare to hotel points transfer was already a joke, now Hilton is the same way.


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## dougp26364 (Feb 19, 2013)

Marriott recently devalued their program.......again......in apparently a simliar way by adding another catagory and increasing the catagory ratings for something like 36% of it's hotels. A couple of years back the devaluation got to the point we moved away from hotel rewards points and went to collecting airline miles. With the rumored devaluation of FF mile rewards (seats getting more expensive for instance), we'll likely move to cash back CC and just take what we can get.

Rewards porgrams were designed to promote loyalty. Unfortunately, companies now appear to be viewing these programs as a liablity. I suspect they'll continue to view them this way until they lose sufficient market share that someone comes along with the bright idea of making them more attractive again. It's just the way the tide moves, it comes in, it goes out. It seems as if we've been going towards low tide for rewards programs over the last few years.

I said a long time ago it was a mistake to buy any timeshare from a developer based on a rewards program who's rules were subject to change. You used to read about points junkies, especially in the Marriott system, who bragged about the value they could get out of trading their timeshare weeks for points. I don't see those stories all that often anymore.


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## MikeinSoCal (Feb 19, 2013)

sjuhawk_jd said:


> As long as earning is "free", we will keep on participating.


It's really not "free'.  You could use a cash back card instead and get more bang for your buck than the Hilton Honor points return.  They've devalued the Hilton points so much, it's just not worth it anymore.


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## jestme (Feb 19, 2013)

100% UNACCEPTABLE! They just changed/added new rewards classes and points requirements 2 years ago. Those changes were massive, and now they add even more complexity and higher point requirements! I understand changes due to inflation, but this is not that case at all. This is a simple point de-valuation of existing points, hurting their most dedicated and returning customers. 
Also, I can't find the "rewards EARNINGS" changes that should accompany this. Surely, there should be additional points earned during these "high time of the year" point redemption times as well. They can't have it both ways, a standard earnings program, with a non-standard reward program. 
Right now, I am still a regular Hilton customer, (about 15-20 hotel stay days / year). I also spend about a month at the HHV every year, but for some reason, when staying in my Hilton timeshare, $ spent in HHV restaurants and bars aren't considered for HHonors points as hotel stays there would be. 
After the last devaluation I started looking at other more cost effective hotel options, while still keeping Hilton as my preferred choice only for the HHonors points. Not any more. I can't stay often enough in a year to keep up with the increased points requirements they keep changing to. I will look at other options this time. Inflated prices for the Hilton name, without the old Hilton service and rewards will certainly hurt their chances at being competitive.


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## linsj (Feb 19, 2013)

Blues said:


> http://hhonors3.hilton.com/en/promotions/program-changes/english.html?wt.mc_id=CMEM_BRI9PoB8wONwGy
> 
> http://hhonors3.hilton.com/en/promotions/upcoming-changes-standard-room-rewards/index.html
> 
> ...



No one knows for certain if VIP awards are going away, but it seems like the new book 5 nights, pay for 4 award for silver & above is replacing them. No news on whether the AXON points will stay the same or not.

There's a huge thread on FlyerTalk about the point changes--mostly whining, complaining, and I'm-leaving remarks. I checked a few of the higher-end hotels I regularly use points for, and they haven't changed except for a seasonal increase during a month I don't go there. 

Every hotel chain changes point requirements every few years to great outcry. Hilton still works better for me than other chains as my primary choice, so I'm not jumping to another one. I do keep points in Starwood and Marriott, mostly from credit cards, since there are places I go to regularly that don't have Hiltons.


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## Tamaradarann (Feb 20, 2013)

*New Point System is NOT SO BAD*



Blues said:


> http://hhonors3.hilton.com/en/promotions/program-changes/english.html?wt.mc_id=CMEM_BRI9PoB8wONwGy
> 
> http://hhonors3.hilton.com/en/promotions/upcoming-changes-standard-room-rewards/index.html
> 
> ...



While there are 10 point categories in the new system and they go up to 95000 points the new system doesn't seem so bad.  The Hotels that I checked in Honolulu are the same value in the winter when I would go.  The HHV is 50000 points and the DoubleTree and Hilton Waikiki Beach are 40000 points. There is a higher point value in December but we don't go to Hawaii in December.  The Embassey Suites is a bit higher at 60000 points in the winter, but you do get a full breakfast and happy hour there which should make it more expensive.

What does concern me more than the point values for the basic room is the more expensive upgrade rooms which can be 100's of thousands of points.  What if the low priced rooms are taken and you have to book an upgraded room?  This is not a new change it has been there for a few years.


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## lindsey1 (Feb 20, 2013)

We can expect HGVC to announce an improved HHonors points conversion rate any moment, right? :hysterical:


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## hvacrsteve (Feb 20, 2013)

I stopped using my Hilton American express about a year ago, now I just go with Citibank, thank you points.
They are all 1% back with a few extras as it goes!
My wife does the air line miles.
We don't travel as much these days anyway.
I am slowly or as fast as possible starting to dump Hilton all together!
What was once worth a dollar is now worth 40 cents maybe?


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## Blues (Feb 20, 2013)

linsj said:


> No one knows for certain if VIP awards are going away, but it seems like the new book 5 nights, pay for 4 award for silver & above is replacing them. No news on whether the AXON points will stay the same or not.



Ah, so VIP and AXON still exist, at least until the March 28 cutover date.  That was what I was wondering.  I don't use the program often, so I'm not current.  But I have a trip in July in which I *might* want to use the points.  I know I can call an HHonors rep to get VIP.  And I have an old chart somewhere for VIP.  How do I get AXON?



Tamaradarann said:


> While there are 10 point categories in the new system and they go up to 95000 points the new system doesn't seem so bad.  The Hotels that I checked in Honolulu are the same value in the winter when I would go.



Well, yeah, in off-season, the change may not be so bad.  For a couple hotels I checked out, e.g. Hilton Garden Inn, it goes from 30K/night to 40K/night in summer.  That's a big increase.



lindsey1 said:


> We can expect HGVC to announce an improved HHonors points conversion rate any moment, right? :hysterical:



:hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical:

Anyway, I asked about this because of the way I've typically used my HGVC points.  Common wisdom is that converting to HHonors is a bad investment.  And while that's typically the case, I've used HHonors points converted from HGVC on a few occasions at high-priced locations  E.g. NYC, and last summer in Edinburgh during the festival.  The room I got in Edinburgh during the festival had a cash price of $700/night.  I felt good about using HHonors points there.

So my modus operandi has always been to keep about 200K HHonors points in my account, enough for a VIP award. Then, when I needed a room in a high-priced location, I'd raid the account, and replenish it from HGVC points on the next Jan 1.

With this recent devaluation, I'm now wondering if it's worth it even for high priced locations, such as large cities in Europe and the US.  Hmmm, I'm not sure...

-Bob


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## lindsey1 (Feb 20, 2013)

:hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical:

Anyway, I asked about this because of the way I've typically used my HGVC points.  Common wisdom is that converting to HHonors is a bad investment.  And while that's typically the case, I've used HHonors points converted from HGVC on a few occasions at high-priced locations  E.g. NYC, and last summer in Edinburgh during the festival.  The room I got in Edinburgh during the festival had a cash price of $700/night.  I felt good about using HHonors points there.

So my modus operandi has always been to keep about 200K HHonors points in my account, enough for a VIP award. Then, when I needed a room in a high-priced location, I'd raid the account, and replenish it from HGVC points on the next Jan 1.

With this recent devaluation, I'm now wondering if it's worth it even for high priced locations, such as large cities in Europe and the US.  Hmmm, I'm not sure...

-Bob[/QUOTE]


I believe a number of HGVC members do this same thing. I do as well b/c I travel to Europe frequently.  No longer will I convert to HHonors points under any circumstances - unless, HGVC does indeed improve the conversion rate - and fairly significantly.


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## JenMuse (Feb 20, 2013)

Blues said:


> Anyway, I asked about this because of the way I've typically used my HGVC points.  Common wisdom is that converting to HHonors is a bad investment.  And while that's typically the case, I've used HHonors points converted from HGVC on a few occasions at high-priced locations  E.g. NYC, and last summer in Edinburgh during the festival.  The room I got in Edinburgh during the festival had a cash price of $700/night.  I felt good about using HHonors points there.
> 
> So my modus operandi has always been to keep about 200K HHonors points in my account, enough for a VIP award. Then, when I needed a room in a high-priced location, I'd raid the account, and replenish it from HGVC points on the next Jan 1.
> 
> ...



I did this for a long trip to the UK, used a portion of my HGVC points to book a week in a 2 bedroom lodge at the Hilton Craigendarroch in Ballater, then converted my remaining points to HH and moved from Hilton hotel to hotel as I traveled the country. Was an outstanding deal in London, Bath, & Edinburgh (during the Fringe Festival).

Had enough HH points left over stay in Hollywood for a movie premiere a few months later.

Under this new scheme, I doubt very much I could pull off that trip again....


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## Ron98GT (Feb 20, 2013)

lindsey1 said:


> :hysterical: :rofl: :hysterical:
> 
> Anyway, I asked about this because of the way I've typically used my HGVC points.  Common wisdom is that converting to HHonors is a bad investment.  And while that's typically the case, I've used HHonors points converted from HGVC on a few occasions at high-priced locations  E.g. NYC, and last summer in Edinburgh during the festival.  The room I got in Edinburgh during the festival had a cash price of $700/night.  I felt good about using HHonors points there.
> 
> ...



I don't recall reading that the conversion rate from HGVC to HHonors has changed from 25:1.  That rate is established by HGVC, not HHonors, which is printed in the Member Guide.

My Opinion: If it gets me what I want in Europe AND save me a few hundred dollars AND I can spare the points, THEN I'll convert.


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## RX8 (Feb 20, 2013)

Ron98GT said:


> I don't recall reading that the conversion rate from HGVC to HHonors has changed from 25:1.  That rate is established by HGVC, not HHonors, which is printed in the Member Guide.
> 
> My Opinion: If it gets me what I want in Europe AND save me a few hundred dollars AND I can spare the points, THEN I'll convert.



I believe their point was that due to the devaluation of the hhonors points they want the HGVC conversion rates to increase above the current 25:1 to offset that devaluation.


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## Sandy VDH (Feb 20, 2013)

If you convert next years points you get the points next Jan 1 and you get them for a 25:1 ratio.

If you are wanting points prior to that you can only use this years points and then you only get a 20:1 ration.

I did find an additional complicaiton.  I wanted points for a reservation next year, but according to HGVC I can only use next years points for a reservation next year.   But I want to use this points. 

I did point out that if I wanted to use this years points, I could just have them book me a reservation this year.  Then cancel, those points stay in Hilton.  Their response.  "I can not comment on that."


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## linsj (Feb 20, 2013)

Blues said:


> How do I get AXON?



You have to call 800-920-5649 (diamond desk) and ask for it.


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## PigsDad (Feb 20, 2013)

RX8 said:


> I believe their point was that due to the devaluation of the hhonors points they want the HGVC conversion rates to increase above the current 25:1 to offset that devaluation.



I wasn't that long ago that the conversion rate went from 1:23 to the current 1:25, so it is possible they will adjust it again.

Kurt


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## traacs (Feb 20, 2013)

Yes a conversion of 1-30 would bring us back on track.

It would be nice to see rewards increase as well with this claw back  by Hilton


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## Tamaradarann (Mar 17, 2013)

*Prime Season should be more*



Blues said:


> Ah, so VIP and AXON still exist, at least until the March 28 cutover date.  That was what I was wondering.  I don't use the program often, so I'm not current.  But I have a trip in July in which I *might* want to use the points.  I know I can call an HHonors rep to get VIP.  And I have an old chart somewhere for VIP.  How do I get AXON?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



B][/B] Most of us on this site are timeshare owners.  We know that season as well as location is what gives our timeshare week that we own value.  A winter week in the northeast on the ocean has much less value than a summer week.  A week when the kids are out of school in Orlando has much greater value than when the kids are in school.  Therefore, for Hilton to price the Hilton Honors points required during prime season greater than during off season is just in line with the timeshare mode and good business.


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## Blues (Mar 18, 2013)

Tamaradarann said:


> Most of us on this site are timeshare owners.  We know that season as well as location is what gives our timeshare week that we own value.  A winter week in the northeast on the ocean has much less value than a summer week.  A week when the kids are out of school in Orlando has much greater value than when the kids are in school.  Therefore, for Hilton to price the Hilton Honors points required during prime season greater than during off season is just in line with the timeshare mode and good business.



That would be very on-point if Hilton had decreased the off-season point requirements as much as they increased the high-season requirements, such that the average point requirements stayed the same.  But they didn't do that.  They didn't reduce *any* off-season requirements.  They merely raised the high-season ones.

Thus, it was a devaluation of HHonors points.  A very significant one, from what I can tell.

-Bob


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## masala (Mar 18, 2013)

Someone has calculated both the increases and decreases in redemption points under the new rules.  Though the required points have generally increased, there are also some that have decreased. 

See here: wandr.me/images/HHRates.xlsx


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## Tamaradarann (Mar 19, 2013)

*What concerns me more is the premium rooms!*



Blues said:


> That would be very on-point if Hilton had decreased the off-season point requirements as much as they increased the high-season requirements, such that the average point requirements stayed the same.  But they didn't do that.  They didn't reduce *any* off-season requirements.  They merely raised the high-season ones.
> 
> Thus, it was a devaluation of HHonors points.  A very significant one, from what I can tell.
> 
> -Bob



There is no question that this does devalue HHonors points particularly during the prime season.  As I mentioned Hilton did this to charge more during prime season and have less rooms booked during that time using HHonors Points.  Yes they could have and probably should have lowered the points required during off seasons. 

However, what concerns me more is the premium room rates at some resorts, and the availabilty of regular standard rooms to reserve with Hilton Honors points.  Hilton has a policy of no black out dates which is great, however, with a hotel of say 100 rooms they could have 10 of them considered standard rooms priced at say 40K points, and 90 of them considered some type of premium room i.e., ocean front, ocean view, penthouse, high floor, mountain view, city view etc. and therefore between 100K and 150K points a night.  
If the 10 standard rooms are already booked, having to book these high point premium rooms using HHonors points surly would devalue HHonrs points


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